NationStates Jolt Archive

There were reports from Lithuanian newsreporters from Georgia.

Now, I may just be a dumb, ignorant, insular American, but I believe Lithuania is NOT Russia, correct? Therefore, I am fairly confident that those news sources are not to be trusted, as they are not the noble and virtuous Russian state media but, in fact, Western propaganda machines.

Is that about accurate?

The mainland Georgia is also using Russian weapons and vehicles. Actually, Ossetians got most of what they have through separation.

It's true they had some armament, but it wasn't involved in initial skirmishes - otherwise there would be proof left.
The August 1st shootout was quite a while back. Though, the way it started, it's unlikely that we'll ever be able to learn.

No, we likely won't ever know the truth. Both sides will maintain their innocence for all eternity, and any evidence of the original aggressor will be long destroyed by the time any impartial observers can get in the area. Unfortunate, but true.

There were reports from Lithuanian newsreporters from Georgia.

There's also an information that Georgians managed to blast the tunnel connecting S. Ossetia and Russia. If it turned out to be truth (of which I'm sure) this would cause a serious trouble for Russian land forces.

Last I heard was Russian troops did reach Tskhinvali and controll most of it but there was still fighting going on.

Now, I may just be a dumb, ignorant, insular American, but I believe Lithuania is NOT Russia, correct? Therefore, I am fairly confident that those news sources are not to be trusted, as they are not the noble and virtuous Russian state media but, in fact, Western propaganda machines.

Is that about accurate?

You can think whatever you want. Lithuanian media is not full of Western propaganda, but I cannot force you to believe or not to believe. That's your choice.

You can think whatever you want. Lithuanian media is not full of Western propaganda, but I cannot force you to believe or not to believe. That's your choice.

I'm pretty sure that the post was full of sarcasm, as noted from earlier discussion in this thread.

The Russo-Georgian war will NOT spark WWIII for one simple reason. It isn't 2012 yet.

The Russo-Georgian war will NOT spark WWIII for one simple reason. It isn't 2012 yet.

is this a joke?

The Russo-Georgian war will NOT spark WWIII for one simple reason. It isn't 2012 yet.

actually, it might. About 2,000 American citizens are in Georgian, along with 130 Green Berets who were training Georgian troops for Iraq. If they get hurt, things could go downhill quickly.

is this a joke?
Feel free to interpret it any way you want. ;)

The Russo-Georgian war will NOT spark WWIII for one simple reason. It isn't 2012 yet.
:tongue: The world isn't supposed to end yet!

It isn't set in stone, it's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion that we should consider S. Ossetia an independent state just because it says it is.

Oh, right then. I was under the impression that you were stating it as a fact of international law. My apologies.

I know. I was merely saying that, even if the UN considers it an "internal Georgian affair", they would still hold Georgia responsible if they violated the cease fire agreement that they themselves signed.

You just made it seem like Georgia could do whatever they wanted in South Ossetia because it is officially part of Georgia. I'm saying that's not the case. Look at the former Yugoslavia, for instance.
Didn't mean that. Only that Georgia technically doesn't require a UNSC resolution to authorize the use of force against separatists inside their own country.

In what way? The Israelis frequently have ceasefires with the Palestinians and they are broken. The UN condemns but does nothing as it's an internal matter.

Edit: If it is found that the first shots were fired by the Georgians the the UN with probably take a very dim view of it.

The Israeli-Palestinian situation is different, since the occupation is a continuing violation of international law. The situation here is more complex, as the cease fire agreement might authorize the Russians to use force in response to a violation of the cease fire agreement. And the agreement may mean that there's no need for a UNSC resolution authorizing armed intervention. Maybe.

Rolling squid;13909101']actually, it might. About 2,000 American citizens are in Georgian, along with 130 Green Berets who were training Georgian troops for Iraq. If they get hurt, things could go downhill quickly.
I don't see why. If the Americans aren't leaving of their own accord, it's their own fault if they get bombed, full stop.

While Russia is officially doing this to protect South Ossetia , unofficially I'm concerned they may think it time that one of their ex republics has been an ex for too long. Could Russia use this as an excuse for an indefinite occupation of Georgia?

This could get very bad! I am sure millions of Americans are outraged because they believe the State of Georgia is being attacked.

Could Russia use this as an excuse for an indefinite occupation of Georgia?
No.

Is it an excuse to bomb Georgia and then sell them the materials they need to fix up their country? Yes.

While Russia is officially doing this to protect South Ossetia , unofficially I'm concerned they may think it time that one of their ex republics has been an ex for too long. Could Russia use this as an excuse for an indefinite occupation of Georgia?

Occupying South Ossetia or Georgia proper? South Ossetia is all but Russian now. The rest of Georgia might be more interesting. The next few days are going to be really telling of true Russian intentions.

Occupying South Ossetia or Georgia proper? South Ossetia is all but Russian now. The rest of Georgia might be more interesting. The next few days are going to be really telling of true Russian intentions.

Georgia Proper. If that happened I'm sure diplomats wouldn't be turning the other cheek for long.

This could get very bad! I am sure millions of Americans are outraged because they believe the State of Georgia is being attacked.
:D :D :D :D :D

"Now, South Ossetia - is that like going to be a new part of South Carolina?"

Aye, well I doubt Georgia itself is going to be occupied, its hilly nature and relatively well-trained army would make that a complete bloody nightmare, also there's no real point. Georgia doesn't have anything that Russia itself does.

I reckon it'll be like the Israel/Lebanon war a while back, basically. Georgia gets bombed, holidaying diplomats not actually that fussed, a ceasefire is eventually called and things are basically the same as they were anyway, minus a few Georgian tower blocks.

:D :D :D :D :D

"Now, South Ossetia - is that like going to be a new part of South Carolina?"

As an American, I'm outraged! It's obviously a new part of South Dakota!

Damn limeys...

Georgia is pretty much a third world hellhole, and Russia would be more harmed by allowing Georgians to move around it freely than benefited by whatever little gain seizing it might bring.

With South Ossetia, it's the fact they consider Ossetians at least almost Russian citizens (and most are), and leaving the conflict unattended would be a tremendous blow to them.

Just imagine what would happen if Russia didn't step in. Georgia seizes South Ossetia, then what? Then they execute the secessionist leaders, and put on trial most of the citizens of that pretty small republic, as they'd be guilty of conducting or supporting armed rebellion against Georgian government, which is well enough to sentence at least those of them that recognized the independent government.
For those left, South Ossetia is absorbed into Georgia, Russian and Ossetian languages are not allowed for official use (and many Ossetians don't know Georgian), the pretty nationalist mainstream Georgian population overtakes the region. Ossetian people are at worst serving sentences and at best survive as second-class citizens in a country with another language, struggling economy, not much civil rights, strong dislike for Ossetians.

A president that lets that to be done to his citizens (even if - or especially if - they've been explicitly offered this citizenship) can only save his face by resigning. If they hadn't given Russian citizenship to the Ossetians that accepted it, they might have had a choice, but as the things were, Russia was pretty much cornered.

Georgia is pretty much a third world hellhole, and Russia would be more harmed by allowing Georgians to move around it freely than benefited by whatever little gain seizing it might bring.

With South Ossetia, it's the fact they consider Ossetians at least almost Russian citizens (and most are), and leaving the conflict unattended would be a tremendous blow to them.

Just imagine what would happen if Russia didn't step in. Georgia seizes South Ossetia, then what? Then they execute the secessionist leaders, and put on trial most of the citizens of that pretty small republic, as they'd be guilty of conducting or supporting armed rebellion against Georgian government, which is well enough to sentence at least those of them that recognized the independent government.
For those left, South Ossetia is absorbed into Georgia, Russian and Ossetian languages are not allowed for official use (and many Ossetians don't know Georgian), the pretty nationalist mainstream Georgian population overtakes the region. Ossetian people are at worst serving sentences and at best survive as second-class citizens in a country with another language, struggling economy, not much civil rights, strong dislike for Ossetians.

A president that lets that to be done to his citizens (even if - or especially if - they've been explicitly offered this citizenship) can only save his face by resigning. If they hadn't given Russian citizenship to the Ossetians that accepted it, they might have had a choice, but as the things were, Russia was pretty much cornered.


Don't be so ridiculous. Georgia never did nothing like you just said in Adjara, since they regained control there.

And there's no reason to speculate that this could ever happen in S.Ossetia.

Besides, Georgia is not Russia and S.Ossetia is not Chechnya.

Adjara has Georgian population, not Ossetian. Of course they had fewer problems getting absorbed into Georgia.

Yes, Georgia is not the multinational "sick man of the west" (western spiritually, but poorer) Russia, it's a traditional and as of lately nationalist community, and that's what bothers me.

According to CNN:

"A senior U.S. official said Russia's use of strategic bombers and ballistic missiles in civilian populations of Georgia, far from the South Ossetian conflict, was "far disproportionate" to Georgia's actions against Russian peacekeepers and South Ossetians whom Russia clams as citizens."

Russian President called that a "peace establishment mission".

No comments.

Except that if we look at some more neutral sources than a US representative [considering US is strongly pro-Georgian here] - Wiki for a start, links from there - all the Georgians can talk about is a few dozens of casualties, all of them likely occasional (as it always happens), while the Georgia has flattened down the city of Tskhinvali with a couple thousand casualties already before the Russians arrived.

On video, Tskhinvali, the capital of S.Ossetia, formerly a 42,000 city (60% of the nation) can be seen to be reduced to ruins, while all that's seen in Georgia is a few damaged houses, inevitable thing.

Does it qualify as "far disproportionate"? Yes, it does. On the Georgian side.

---

And the parts about "strategic bombers" and "ballistic missiles" are straight, blatant lies. The heaviest bomber Russia was even capable of using was Tu-22, a mid-sized maritime strike aircraft, and there were no ballistic missiles; not even Georgian authorities claim that. But we're used to this since Iraq War.

In contrast, it's well confirmed that Georgia used MLRS against Tskhinvali - not targets in Tskhinvali, as MLRS only aim 'in that direction' and can't attack selectively - Tskhinvali as a city. Now an ex-city.

Russia won't completely destroy Georgia unless they're forced to.

Russia won't completely destroy Georgia unless they're forced to.

Define forced to?

Let's remember how Democratic Georgian Elections were, since well, Saakashvili did say he had "Western Values". Let's see, umm, what happened to the guy who ran against Saakashvili, Badri Pakriashvili? Oh yeah, he suddenly had a heart attack, and the his killer got all of his media resources and capital, leaving his family virtually penniless. Anyone else want to challenge dear leader? It's so hilarious, everyone is looking for Stalin in Putin, whereas it's Saakshvili. The purges of the army, the bombardment and destruction of his own citizens, the drive for land at any cost. Let's face it, the US is supporting Stalin in the face of Saakashvili over a dirty oil pipeline that the Russians will probably destory anyways. Interesting how much credibility the US will lose over supporting a guy like Saakashvili.

In all honesty, I hope Russia doesn't take this conflict beyond capturing Saakashvili and having him and his cronies undergo a military tribunal, and since Saakashvili likes Western Values so much, let's make it Gitmo Style.

According to CNN:

"A senior U.S. official said Russia's use of strategic bombers and ballistic missiles in civilian populations of Georgia, far from the South Ossetian conflict, was "far disproportionate" to Georgia's actions against Russian peacekeepers and South Ossetians whom Russia clams as citizens."

Russian President called that a "peace establishment mission".

No comments.

CNN - a clearly unbiased source. I mean they did such a great job covering up for the Bush Administration in what turned out to be a disastrous war, yup I'm referring to the Iraq War, that they can clearly be trusted. (DEEP SARCASM!)

I cannot seem to find a better news agency then Interfax. Anyone got any ideas?

And Lithuania is clearly biased in this matter, see the Quadruple anti-Russian Declaration, signed by Estonia, Latvia, Poland and yes, Lithuania.

Don't be so ridiculous. Georgia never did nothing like you just said in Adjara, since they regained control there.

And there's no reason to speculate that this could ever happen in S.Ossetia.

Besides, Georgia is not Russia and S.Ossetia is not Chechnya.

Just look at Georgians disobeying the International Red Cross and mercilessly shelling the city. Nothing like that happened in Adjaria either. Saakashvili has a lot more hatred for Ossetians then for Adjarians, because Ossetians broke away successfully, whereas Adjarians failed to do so. Case in point: Saakaashvili is mercilessly shelling the city where Russians have guns and cameras. Imagine what he would do, had Russia not intervened.

I will seriously pay money to see the faces of all of the pro-Georgia people when the Russian tapes, including satellite photos, are presented at the UN Trial, clearly showing who attacked first.

Thats not the point. My point was that big conflicts come from small ones. WW1 began between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia, and spread to consume an entire generation, destroy France, Germany, Russia, and many others.

How WWI could have been prevented, first the chronology:

1. A group of Serbs assasinate Archduke Francis Ferdinand
2. Austria-Hungary launches repressions against all Serbs
3. Russia declares war on Austria-Hungary and starts mobilizing, as:
4. Germany gives Austria-Hungary a blank check
5. France reminds Germany of its alliance with Russia
6. Britain proclaims neutrality
7. Germany invades

It took a series of steps to do it and it could have been easily prevented, had any of the major powers NOT wanted war.

1. Austria-Hungary could've NOT repressed all of Serbs
2. Russia could have avoided mobilizing on the German frontier
3. Germany did NOT have to back Austria-Hungary
4. France could have offered mediation, instead of a declaration
5. Britain could've told Germany that it was prepared to defend France, if the latter was attacked.

WWI and WWII took a while to develop. Right now, aside from the enourmous civillian casualties inflicted by Saakshivili using MLRS, all of the other casualties are relatively light. Not counting Ossetian Civvies (1,800) the casualties are below 500. That's not something really worthy of a major war.
I think Russia will annex South Ossetia and Adjaria, capture Tbilisi, let the Georgian people hold a UN monitored Democratic election, and turn over countrol of the rest of Georgia (minus Tbilisi, South Ossetia and Abkhazia) to UN Reps.

At last! Even from behind the scenes, glorious Putin has lead us to the start of a new age. The first step has been taken, the first shot fired, and soon we will have the first province of the new, immortal Union of Soviet Capitalist Republics!

Tremble, puny West, for the great bear has been stirred from slumber and she is hungry!

This could get very bad! I am sure millions of Americans are outraged because they believe the State of Georgia is being attacked.

Putin is the reincarnation of Sherman?!

This could get very bad! I am sure millions of Americans are outraged because they believe the State of Georgia is being attacked.

ROFL! That is sad and true.

At last! Even from behind the scenes, glorious Putin has lead us to the start of a new age. The first step has been taken, the first shot fired, and soon we will have the first province of the new, immortal Union of Soviet Capitalist Republics!

Tremble, puny West, for the great bear has been stirred from slumber and she is hungry!

What is all this big bad evil Russia coming to get you crap? Russian peacekeepers and Russian Citizens were attacked. Should Russia respond by offering Saakashvili a cup of tea?

And on a more important note: can some friggin tell me a better news source for this then Interfax?

This could get very bad! I am sure millions of Americans are outraged because they believe the State of Georgia is being attacked.

That's ridiculous; noone could confuse the two Georgias. One is a violent, repressed region in constant conflict and social turmoil, and the other isn't even in the U.S.!

What is all this big bad evil Russia coming to get you crap? Russian peacekeepers and Russian Citizens were attacked. Should Russia respond by offering Saakashvili a cup of tea?

(Psst. I'm having a little fun. If you want, you can borrow my knicker-unknotter.)

Putin has accused Georgia of genocide.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552012.stm

I think this will get a lot worse before it gets better.

There is only one way to save all of Georgia at this point without giving independence to the seperatists. What NATO should do is call for an emergency meeting of all NATO nations, vote Georgia into NATO (which they've been trying to join for awhile), and once they have been voted in give Russia twelve hours to get the hell out. The great thing about NATO is if you attack one you attack them all. Unfourtanetly NATO doesn't have the balls to do this and along with the European Union will probably spend the next two weeks debating the issue.

Its sad, NATO used to have balls.

"Regime change" in Georgia?

There is only one way to save all of Georgia at this point without giving independence to the seperatists. What NATO should do is call for an emergency meeting of all NATO nations, vote Georgia into NATO (which they've been trying to join for awhile), and once they have been voted in give Russia twelve hours to get the hell out. The great thing about NATO is if you attack one you attack them all. Unfourtanetly NATO doesn't have the balls to do this and along with the European Union will probably spend the next two weeks debating the issue.

Its sad, NATO used to have balls.

One nation is a small price to pay for preventing World War III.

There is only one way to save all of Georgia at this point without giving independence to the seperatists. What NATO should do is call for an emergency meeting of all NATO nations, vote Georgia into NATO (which they've been trying to join for awhile), and once they have been voted in give Russia twelve hours to get the hell out. The great thing about NATO is if you attack one you attack them all. Unfourtanetly NATO doesn't have the balls to do this and along with the European Union will probably spend the next two weeks debating the issue.

Its sad, NATO used to have balls.

No Disrespect, but why the fuck should America even open up the possibility of a war with Russia, over Georgia?

"Regime change" in Georgia?

The US has done it, maybe Russia was just feeling left out.

Incidentally, isn't Putin supposed to less involved now he's stepped down as President?

The only way to save Georgia, and when I say save I mean perserve all of its borders without giving in to seperatists, is for NATO to step in. If NATO would call an emergency meeting of all member nations, in that meeting they would vote Georgia in as a member, and they would follow that by telling the Russians they have 12 to 24 hours to leave. Russia may be aggressive and have expansionist policies, but they aren't about to take on all of NATO. Unfortunately what is more likely to happen is NATO will debate the issue for two weeks, and by that time there will be a Russian tank on every street corner in Georgia.

The only way to save Georgia, and when I say save I mean perserve all of its borders without giving in to seperatists, is for NATO to step in. If NATO would call an emergency meeting of all member nations, in that meeting they would vote Georgia in as a member, and they would follow that by telling the Russians they have 12 to 24 hours to leave. Russia may be aggressive and have expansionist policies, but they aren't about to take on all of NATO. Unfortunately what is more likely to happen is NATO will debate the issue for two weeks, and by that time there will be a Russian tank on every street corner in Georgia.

Why would I want my country to get involved with a military campaign against Russia, possibly leading to a nuclear exchange?

The US has done it, maybe Russia was just feeling left out.

Incidentally, isn't Putin supposed to less involved now he's stepped down as President?

Aye, Russia wants to play with the big boys again.

Somehow, I think Putin is pulling the strings here. Medvedev is just Putin's robot. Hell, Putin was the one talking to Bush during the opening ceremonies about this situation.

No Disrespect, but why the fuck should America even open up the possibility of a war with Russia, over Georgia?

Because Georgia is our ally in the Iraq war, and we have some of our troop currently training Georgia troops. Of course, this was the same thinking that started World War I, so screw it. Let Russia have Georgia, but let them know that if they try for anything else, there will be repercussions.

Hm. Some interesting footage over at
http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143488&cid=8&doc_type=news&doc_id=199822&p=1

The video begins with a man who appears to be Eduard Kokoity, president of South Ossetia, giving out orders to his soldiers. Soldiers can be seen wearing the white armbands, which I think were first used by Russians in Chechnya to distinguish in friends from foes in the midst of urban combat.

The man is saying that they are going to enter the city first. That they know exactly which districts of the city are being held by "their units". He says that they are going to join up with "their units" and that the "official operation to mop up the city of Tskhinval" would begin. Or something like that.

Then a video footage of some light wounded being tended to. Apparently the column got hit by artillery shells. I think a truck got damaged.

Then the column moves out. There is some brief footage of artillery firing at something. The caption says that there was a battle on the way to Tskhinvali.

Then a soldier is filmed destroying a tank with a charge. It is not said whether it is a Russian tank that suffered malfunction or a Georgian tank that was positioned on the road to the city and was hit by the artillery fire from earlier in the video. Both Russia and Georgia use the T-72. The tank appears to have been facing the moving column.

Some footage of a town in ruins and wrecks of armoured vehicles.

A local resident is then seen to be giving directions to the column before it proceeds further.

Then the footage shows the column under fire. The caption reads "Assault on the Russian column. Attack of the Georgian special forces". Shots can be heard and Russian officers shouting out orders.

In the last few seconds of the video, the column appears to have resumed moving forward.

Apparently, this video shows the event in which the commander of the 58th Army got lightly wounded.

Its sad, NATO used to have balls.

I thought the same about Russia in 1999.

And today I can say with pride that Russia has balls.

I deem a strong message must be sent to the US and NATO that they are not the world gendarmes and that should they or their lackeys try something, there shall be repercussions.

Rolling squid;13909939']Because Georgia is our ally in the Iraq war, and we have some of our troop currently training Georgia troops. Of course, this was the same thinking that started World War I, so screw it. Let Russia have Georgia, but let them know that if they try for anything else, there will be repercussions.

They've got what 1,000 troops in Iraq? We'd lose more than than in any SERIOUS skirmish with Russia. I'm still not seeing how Georgia is worth it. Do they have Oil? ;)

I thought the same about Russia in 1999.

And today I can say with pride that Russia has balls.

I deem a strong message must be sent to the US and NATO that they are not the world gendarmes and that should they or their lackeys try something, there shall be repercussions.

I think you'll find in America there's a lot of us who don't want our country to be the world's hall monitor. I'd rather just have the best America possible, and them help our neighbors out.

There is only one way to save all of Georgia at this point without giving independence to the seperatists. What NATO should do is call for an emergency meeting of all NATO nations, vote Georgia into NATO (which they've been trying to join for awhile), and once they have been voted in give Russia twelve hours to get the hell out. The great thing about NATO is if you attack one you attack them all. Unfourtanetly NATO doesn't have the balls to do this and along with the European Union will probably spend the next two weeks debating the issue.

Its sad, NATO used to have balls.

That would be a horrible mistake. You're talking about endangering millions--if not BILLIONS--of lives over a small conflict. As much as I want the conflict to stop, it's not worth that kind of risk, especially given how the causalities so far won't even be a drop in the bucket of a single DAY in a war between NATO and Russia.

Why would I want my country to get involved with a military campaign against Russia, possibly leading to a nuclear exchange?

The risk is there anyway. Georgia is small and borders Turkey, which is a NATO member. If any thing spilled over the Turkish border, NATO could become involved. Not to mention their are still many NATO forces in the region; the US, NATO, Ukraine, Georgia, and several other nations just finished a major joint exercise. With the Russian mobilization of the Black Sea Fleet and the deployment of airborne units to the region the risk of confrontation between NATO and Russia increases. That part of the world is small and has a large concentration of military forces from all over Europe and America there right now. Right now NATO and the EU appear to not be in agreement about what to do, which is giving the Russians the impression they have a free hand. If they would atleast unite behind Georgia it would send a message to the Russians that this behavior isn't going to fly. 12-24 hours is short, maybe 48-72 hours is better. Atleast it would show NATO is unified instead of fractured, and it would pressure the Russians to seek a peaceful option. The National Security Council has already failed to resolve the problem and Russia is showing it doesn't want to negotiate by removing UN Peacekeepers from the region, if this is allowed to continue Russia and Putin will continue to find ways to influence the nations around them like the Soviet Union did. This bears striking similarities to Hungary in '56 and Czechoslovakia '68. NATO needs to show it is unified. Georgia has several major petroleum pipe lines running through it and the last thing the world needs is Putin and Russia in charge of all that petroleum.

There is no reason, ever, for the US or NATO to get involved. Even if the Russians decide to do some ethnic cleansing, nothing is worth war with Russia.

They've got what 1,000 troops in Iraq? We'd lose more than than in any SERIOUS skirmish with Russia. I'm still not seeing how Georgia is worth it. Do they have Oil? ;)

Which is why I say screw 'em, to an extent. We don't want to let the Russians do too much, or we risk running into a WWII appeasement type situation. Of course, our army is still embarrassingly weak.

I don't think Russia would take on NATO, they would back down, there military is still a second rate rust bucket. It would simply pressure the Russians to seek a diplomatic solution, otherwise they just roll there tanks all over that country. By doing nothing your telling Russia they can do whatever they please and no one will stop them. And why is it important?

Because major petroleum pipelines run through that region, do you really want Russia in charge of all that petroleum.

So to those who know the region, and international relations what are some possible scenarios for what could happen if Russia and Georgia become engaged in full all out war if it is not already?

Smaller incidents have sparked off regional and larger wars. What could this spark off or what could possibly happen?

Greetings,

Depends who started it, both sides deny starting it so not sure who is lying. Russia tried to cover up that sub disaster a few years ago so they are capable of lying on such a scale but the Georgian leader is an unknown to me so he could be responsible as well. I warned a student of mine who was going to Georgia that they (Russia and Georgia) would go to war this summer probably (with the Russian jet taking out the Georgian spy plane incident among other incidents), guess she should have listened. The breakoff province of Georgia will eventually be part of Russia since they want out of Georgia and back into Russia. Remember Grozny was a war zone about 8 years ago so both sides are not fond of each other so expect a war that will envelope parts of Georgia and possibly include attacks on Russian soil. Then again, Putin no doubts remembers the Beslin incident and the Moscow bombings especially that movie theatre hostage situation so will probably look to keep it localized though it again depends on who started it. If Russia moves to attack Grozny, expect it to get ugly though I cannot see that happening unless the Georgian leader does something to really tick off the Russians. Then again if he started this mess from Russia's perspective then that could be enough

Cheers, ES
PS: US has nothing they can say about the incident. If Russia goes in and kills everyone in Georgia and the US says anything Russia will state that US was attacked in 911 and went into Afghanistan and Iraq as a result so USSR (oops I meant Russia ;) ) will state they are again dealing with terrorists who attacked them first and besides it is an internal incident (from RUSSIA's point of view)...

There is no reason, ever, for the US or NATO to get involved. Even if the Russians decide to do some ethnic cleansing, nothing is worth war with Russia.

Ethnic cleansing is a situation where we have to intervene.

Rolling squid;13910002']Which is why I say screw 'em, to an extent. We don't want to let the Russians do too much, or we risk running into a WWII appeasement type situation. Of course, our army is still embarrassingly weak.

True. I think what we need to do is to dis-engage from our ties with other nations though, and let regional issues resolve themselves. I can't thik of any reason why we're still in NATO, ASEAN, or providing for the defense of prosperous nations like S. Korea and Japan. And then we can use that time to rebuild the military, while only getting involved in important wars (not Iraq). Bad wars kill us recruiting-wise because of the volunteer nature of our military.

I don't think Russia would take on NATO, they would back down, there military is still a second rate rust bucket. It would simply pressure the Russians to seek a diplomatic solution, otherwise they just roll there tanks all over that country. By doing nothing your telling Russia they can do whatever they please and no one will stop them. And why is it important?

Because major petroleum pipelines run through that region, do you really want Russia in charge of all that petroleum.

Best to sacrifice Georgia then risk it.

Ethnic cleansing is a situation where we have to intervene.

At the risk of us getting hurt? No. Too bad for the Georgians.

Ethnic cleansing is a situation where we have to intervene.

Out of the pre-war population of 70'000, 45'000 were Ossetians. Now an estimated 20'000 to 34'000 are refugees in Russia. There are claims that 1'500 Ossetian civilians are dead.

This pretty much leaves less about ten thousand Ossetians left in South Ossetia.

Rolling squid;13909939']Because Georgia is our ally in the Iraq war, and we have some of our troop currently training Georgia troops. Of course, this was the same thinking that started World War I, so screw it. Let Russia have Georgia, but let them know that if they try for anything else, there will be repercussions.

What makes you think that Russia is after all of Georgia. The most likely outcome is that Russia secures the Ossetian border and then agrees to a cease-fire with Georgia, leaving Ossetia a de facto independent republic (although even more of a Russian puppet than before). In fact, it's quite possible that Russia will then recognize Abkhazia and possible S. Ossetia (although I could see them "agreeing" to join with N. Ossetia as a Russian republic), treating the West to a Kosovo of their very own.

Out of the pre-war population of 70'000, 45'000 were Ossetians. Now an estimated 20'000 to 34'000 are refugees in Russia. There are claims that 1'500 Ossetian civilians are dead.

This pretty much leaves less about ten thousand Ossetians left in South Ossetia.

Yeah, I'm going to go with the UN on this one. They say about 5000 displaced.

Yeah, I'm going to go with the UN on this one. They say about 5000 displaced.

Whichever suits you the best. ;)

At the risk of us getting hurt? No. Too bad for the Georgians.

I can't put into words how much of a bastard I think you are right now.

At the risk of us getting hurt? No. Too bad for the Georgians.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I have to disagree, especially since we're talking about genocide. Genocide is simply not acceptable, no matter who is doing it, where, when, why, or however politically complicated it would be to stop it. We have a responsibility as decent human beings to save others from that kind of horrible treatment.

On that same token, we shouldn't use military action in such a case unless it was absolutely necessary and nothing else worked.

What makes you think that Russia is after all of Georgia. The most likely outcome is that Russia secures the Ossetian border and then agrees to a cease-fire with Georgia, leaving Ossetia a de facto independent republic (although even more of a Russian puppet than before). In fact, it's quite possible that Russia will then recognize Abkhazia and possible S. Ossetia (although I could see them "agreeing" to join with N. Ossetia as a Russian republic), treating the West to a Kosovo of their very own.

We don't know Russian intentions. It's not totally unreasonable to assume that they may have aspirations of total annexation. They do have a history of it.

Further weight was lent when Prime Minister Putin used the magic "G" word. "Regime change", at least, is not unreasonable to expect.

Whichever suits you the best. ;)

Do you have information I don't?

Sorry, but I'm afraid I have to disagree, especially since we're talking about genocide. Genocide is simply not acceptable, no matter who is doing it, where, when, why, or however politically complicated it would be to stop it. We have a responsibility as decent human beings to save others from that kind of horrible treatment.

On that same token, we shouldn't use military action in such a case unless it was absolutely necessary and nothing else worked.

Ok, lets use math.

Georgian Genocide: Couple Million at the outside

World War III: Billions.

Millions<Billions

This ain't Serbia with a half ass military. This ain't Iraq with a quarter ass military. This is the 3rd most powerful nation in the world, armed to the teeth with weapons that make large explosions.

Since when is it America's job to stop genocide around the world? Let the locals stop isues in their half of the world.

More importantly, you want to fight RUSSIA to stop the genocide in an area with 70,000 people tops. My county in backwood Alabama has more people than that, meanwhile Darfur's still going down with no repercussions.

I don't think the Russians or Americans are going to go to war with eachother, both sides know what it would eventually come too. Even if there was an engagement no matter how small or big, cooler heads would prevail. Their were several incidents during the Cold War along the Inner German Border where NATO and Warsaw Pact troops engaged in small firefights, becuase of border disputes and other small confusions, yet cooler heads prevailed. What America and NATO unifying behind Georgia will do is show the Russians we will not stand for them using violence to solve their disputes.

Appeasement could be very dangerous....

Ok, lets use math.

Georgian Genocide: Couple Million at the outside

World War III: Billions.

Millions<Billions

This ain't Serbia with a half ass military. This ain't Iraq with a quarter ass military. This is the 3rd most powerful nation in the world, armed to the teeth with weapons that make large explosions.
Hence why I said we wouldn't use military force unless absolutely necessary. We've got plenty of ways to convince Russia to stop any sort of genocide, not the least of which is the way they're perceived internationally.

This isn't the 19th century anymore. Countries can't just get away with whatever the hell they please if they're strong. How they are perceived matters just as much as economic and military strength, and the kind of bad press that Russia would get over genocide would make it undeseriable for them at best,.

Appeasement could be very dangerous....

...and Russia isn't Nazi Germany.

Russia is not genociding anyone. Georgia is.

And you shall ask "What proof I have of a genocide?"

And I shall ask "What proof do you have for your allegations?"

All I can say is that I wish Russia did not stupidly trust the Georgian leadership for all these years. It appears that Russian forces were not prepared for such a turn of events and had to improvise on the spot. Meh.

Hence why I said we wouldn't use military force unless absolutely necessary. We've got plenty of ways to convince Russia to stop any sort of genocide, not the least of which is the way they're perceived internationally.

This isn't the 19th century anymore. Countries can't just get away with whatever the hell they please if they're strong. How they are perceived matters just as much as economic and military strength, and the kind of bad press that Russia would get over genocide would make it undeseriable for them at best,.

Russia doesn't care what everyone else thinks of it. It controls the oil taps. It has the power. Russia can do whatever they want in Georgia, and there is nothing we can, should, or will do to stop it.

Russia is not genociding anyone. Georgia is.

And you shall ask "What proof I have of a genocide?"

And I shall ask "What proof do you have for your allegations?"

All I can say is that I wish Russia did not stupidly trust the Georgian leadership. It appears that Russian forces were not prepared for such a turn of events and had to improvise on the spot. Meh.

Oh, we're all talking hypotheticals. Worst case scenario and western responses.

Oh, we're all talking hypotheticals. Worst case scenario and western responses.

http://www.nma-fallout.com/fallout2/official_site/files_files/f2box300.jpg

;)

Russia is not genociding anyone. Georgia is.

And you shall ask "What proof I have of a genocide?"

And I shall ask "What proof do you have for your allegations?"

All I can say is that I wish Russia did not stupidly trust the Georgian leadership. It appears that Russian forces were not prepared for such a turn of events and had to improvise on the spot. Meh.

I don't know about the others, but I'm speaking about hypothetical Russian genocide here, not any real genocide. Personally I find it unlikely Russia would ever even try it in the first place anyway.

The South Islands: Russia does not control things as easily as you think. Their economy is just as dependent upon Europe as Europe's is on their oil. Everything is interconnected to a far greater degree than it has ever been in all of history.

...and Russia isn't Nazi Germany.

Besides not being facist they do bear a striking resemblance...you just can't trust those Russkies.

And appeasment is dangerous, but I really don't think Putin intends to cut his reign as dictator short by starting a nuclear war.

What makes you think that Russia is after all of Georgia. The most likely outcome is that Russia secures the Ossetian border and then agrees to a cease-fire with Georgia, leaving Ossetia a de facto independent republic (although even more of a Russian puppet than before). In fact, it's quite possible that Russia will then recognize Abkhazia and possible S. Ossetia (although I could see them "agreeing" to join with N. Ossetia as a Russian republic), treating the West to a Kosovo of their very own.

I don't, I'm simply thinking worst case scenario.


True. I think what we need to do is to dis-engage from our ties with other nations though, and let regional issues resolve themselves. I can't thik of any reason why we're still in NATO, ASEAN, or providing for the defense of prosperous nations like S. Korea and Japan. And then we can use that time to rebuild the military, while only getting involved in important wars (not Iraq). Bad wars kill us recruiting-wise because of the volunteer nature of our military.

I disagree. We need military bases in those countries, it gives up force projection into areas of potential conflict, which gives us am offensive advantage in case of a war with China or Russia. Any such war, assuming non-nuclear, would quickly turn into a naval war, as whoever we're fighting tries to blockade the theater from our resupply convoys. We would probably win that battle, and from there we could (in theory) launch unrestricted air and missile attacks at industrial and military bases, tipping the odds in our favor.

The South Islands: Russia does not control things as easily as you think. Their economy is just as dependent upon Europe as Europe's is on their oil. Everything is interconnected to a far greater degree than it has ever been in all of history.

And you think the Europeans would do anything to stop the flow of oil? No. Europe is looking out for its own interests. You severely underestimate the influence of oil on international relations. Without oil, everything stops. There is no economy without oil. Russia has turned down the taps a few times.

I again state that Russia can do anything it wants.

Here is an interesting development the US is getting involved. Its providing transportation for Georgian troops in Iraq to get back to Georgia. Hope a Russian Mig doesn't bag a C-5, that would be one hell of a mess. I wonder what the Russians will do when they find out the US is helping bring in the troops.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4495242.ece

This isn't the 19th century anymore. Countries can't just get away with whatever the hell they please if they're strong.

Uh, yeah they can.

If serbia had a military as good as say france they totally would have gotten away with whatever they were supposed to have done.

Rolling squid;13910066']I don't, I'm simply thinking worst case scenario.




I disagree. We need military bases in those countries, it gives up force projection into areas of potential conflict, which gives us am offensive advantage in case of a war with China or Russia. Any such war, assuming non-nuclear, would quickly turn into a naval war, as whoever we're fighting tries to blockade the theater from our resupply convoys. We would probably win that battle, and from there we could (in theory) launch unrestricted air and missile attacks at industrial and military bases, tipping the odds in our favor.

We probably disagree a lot on what we think our role in the world, and therefore, the role of the American military should be. I'm an isolationist, and therefore I want the military here on our shores to defend us.

Now that that's done...tacos, anyone?

Besides not being facist they do bear a striking resemblance...you just can't trust those Russkies.

And appeasment is dangerous, but I really don't think Putin intends to cut his reign as dictator short by starting a nuclear war.

Any war between Russia and...well, anyone, will stay conventional. The only reason people have nukes anymore is because the other bastard has nukes. A leader would have to be seriously insane to use nuclear weapons in a modern conflict.

I wonder what the Russians will do when they find out the US is helping bring in the troops.

Well, according to BBC there has been an increase in bombings on Georgian runways... might be related.

And you think the Europeans would do anything to stop the flow of oil? No. Europe is looking out for its own interests. You severely underestimate the influence of oil on international relations. Without oil, everything stops. There is no economy without oil. Russia has turned down the taps a few times.

I again state that Russia can do anything it wants.

I'm just not seeing it happening, but this is one of those things that probably would require some real demonstration to be settled.

So, shall we agree to disagree?

The only way to save Georgia, and when I say save I mean perserve all of its borders without giving in to seperatists, is for NATO to step in. If NATO would call an emergency meeting of all member nations, in that meeting they would vote Georgia in as a member, and they would follow that by telling the Russians they have 12 to 24 hours to leave. Russia may be aggressive and have expansionist policies, but they aren't about to take on all of NATO. Unfortunately what is more likely to happen is NATO will debate the issue for two weeks, and by that time there will be a Russian tank on every street corner in Georgia.

And thus letting Georgia get away with being absolute pricks. Yeah. That'd be a great message to the world:

"Hey, if you level a civilian city that is mostly occupied with people of a different ethnicity, and a neighbor country steps in to stop you from doing so, we are going to let you get off scott free! Yeah! Go you!"

Hmm... doesn't exactly sound that great, does it?

As an American, I believe Georgia's actions are justified but I also believe that Russia has a right to protect its citizens in-country. I do not want the war to escalate and a cease-fire should take place immediately.

Well, according to BBC there has been an increase in bombings on Georgian runways... might be related.

Yea but we can land on highways too, not to mention if Turkey is on board we could land at our bases in Turkey and send them across the border. The Russians I think are mostly pissed because of NATO expansion and the fact that the Ukraine and Georgia want to join. They really don't want NATO forces on there border, which I can understand. But I support NATO expansion anyway. I just wonder what will happen because their are alot of NATO operations going on in that region right now and it would be really bad if someone got confused and shot someone.

I'm just not seeing it happening, but this is one of those things that probably would require some real demonstration to be settled.

So, shall we agree to disagree?

No. Because you're wrong.

No one stepped in when NATO was bombing Serbia. No one stepped in when the US decided to invade Iraq. Why would anyone step in when Russia decides to invade any number of whogivesashit former Soviet republics? No one. Oil is power. Russia has Oil. Therefore, Russia has Power.

Sorry if that sounded harsh. I really didn't mean it that way.

No. Because you're wrong.

No one stepped in when NATO was bombing Serbia. No one stepped in when the US decided to invade Iraq. Why would anyone step in when Russia decides to invade any number of whogivesashit former Soviet republics? No one. Oil is power. Russia has Oil. Therefore, Russia has Power.

Sorry if that sounded harsh. I really didn't mean it that way.

But those two situations are different. They weren't intentional genocide. I'm still talking about stopping genocide here.

No. Because you're wrong.

No one stepped in when NATO was bombing Serbia. No one stepped in when the US decided to invade Iraq. Why would anyone step in when Russia decides to invade any number of whogivesashit former Soviet republics? No one. Oil is power. Russia has Oil. Therefore, Russia has Power.

Sorry if that sounded harsh. I really didn't mean it that way.

Correct...oil is power. Georgia sits on major pipelines which the US surely doesn't want to fall completely into Russian hands. They won't get into a full scale war over it. The US has niether the time, nor the money, nor the public will to do so. However if you don't think we won't try to trash them diplomatically and support the Georgian military, you're kidding yourself.

But those two situations are different. They weren't intentional genocide. I'm still talking about stopping genocide here.

Why? I mean, we can blab about human rights and freedom and feel good stuff until we're blue, but that doesn't change the fact that Oil rules the world.

But those two situations are different. They weren't intentional genocide. I'm still talking about stopping genocide here.

Oh and the US doesn't care about genocide, thats why we're not in Darfur. We care about our interests and Georgia is in our interests, as a potential NATO member and as a country with petroleum pipelines. Whether its wrong or right we don't go to war just because of genocide.

Correct...oil is power. Georgia sits on major pipelines which the US surely doesn't want to fall completely into Russian hands. They won't get into a full scale war over it. The US has niether the time, nor the money, nor the public will to do so. However if you don't think we won't try to trash them diplomatically and support the Georgian military, you're kidding yourself.

The Pipelines are minor when compared to Russian production.

Speaking of that, has anyone checked their local gas prices?

Why? I mean, we can blab about human rights and freedom and feel good stuff until we're blue, but that doesn't change the fact that Oil rules the world.

Then perhaps what I'm arguing is more about how thing should be. I have a bad habit of doing that.

The Pipelines are minor when compared to Russian production.

Speaking of that, has anyone checked their local gas prices?

Presuming the article I just checked isn't out of date and my math is good enough, it's currently .69 cents a litre, or 2.60 per gallon.

Then perhaps what I'm arguing is more about how thing should be. I have a bad habit of doing that.

Nothing wrong with wishing for Utopia, but trying to apply such lofty and respectible things to the real world leasts to major problems.

Presuming the article I just checked isn't out of date and my math is good enough, it's currently .69 cents a litre, or 2.60 per gallon.

Here, I mean. Our gas prices tend to skyrocket at the faintest ripple. It jumped right after the Mauritainian coup, but has stayed pretty steady the past few days.

Nothing wrong with wishing for Utopia, but trying to apply such lofty and respectible things to the real world leasts to major problems.
True. In time I'm desperately hoping that won't be the case. We're CAPABLE of getting past all of this bullshit, so we really ought to get to it.

Here, I mean. Our gas prices tend to skyrocket at the faintest ripple. It jumped right after the Mauritainian coup, but has stayed pretty steady the past few days.
Well, last I checked, ours are still at around 3.96 a gallon.

The Pipelines are minor when compared to Russian production.

Speaking of that, has anyone checked their local gas prices?

Good point...I have to drive up to college on Wed.

Anyhow, yes they are minor but the US doesn't get its oil from Russia or atleast last time I saw the figures we weren't. I dunno maybe I'm talking out my ass but last time I checked we got it mostly from Canada and other nations but that was in 2005.

Anyways, I think this is more an issue now of NATO expansion, or atleast thats what the news articles keep telling me. Putin doesn't like the Western Imperialists encroaching on Mother Russia.

Then perhaps what I'm arguing is more about how thing should be. I have a bad habit of doing that.

Its not a bad habit, if more peopl had morals we wouldn't have 3/4 of the problems we have in this world. But please lets not get into a discussion of morals, lets keep this about the war in Georgia.

Presuming the article I just checked isn't out of date and my math is good enough, it's currently .69 cents a litre, or 2.60 per gallon.
http://www.anchoragegasprices.com/
http://www.adn.com/opinion/view/story/481103.html
Lucky you.

Its not a bad habit, if more peopl had morals we wouldn't have 3/4 of the problems we have in this world. But please lets not get into a discussion of morals, lets keep this about the war in Georgia.
Quite.

http://www.anchoragegasprices.com/
http://www.adn.com/opinion/view/story/481103.html
Lucky you.
But I'm not Russian. :confused:

Presuming the article I just checked isn't out of date and my math is good enough, it's currently .69 cents a litre, or 2.60 per gallon.

Holy crap where do you live...its 3.80 here...I want 2.60 per gallon.

But I'm not Russian. :confused:More colloquial than anything else. The second article i provided was the perspective i came from, not so much assigning any particular evaluation of *you* so much as *y'all* ... i could change it.

Good point...I have to drive up to college on Wed.

Anyhow, yes they are minor but the US doesn't get its oil from Russia or atleast last time I saw the figures we weren't. I dunno maybe I'm talking out my ass but last time I checked we got it mostly from Canada and other nations but that was in 2005.

Anyways, I think this is more an issue now of NATO expansion, or atleast thats what the news articles keep telling me. Putin doesn't like the Western

It may be, but Europe relies on Russian oil. And if Europe isn't on board, we can't do a thing.

More colloquial than anything else. The second article i provided was the perspective i came from, not so much assigning any particular evaluation of *you* so much as *y'all* ... i could change it.

Ooooh.

You Alaskans need the gas a bit more than we do, too, given the locale.

It may be, but Europe relies on Russian oil. And if Europe isn't on board, we can't do a thing.

True but I don't think they'll stand idly by either. This has been an on going issue since the fall of the Soviet Union. Western Europe, mainly old NATO countries, were all for embracing their fomer enemies and bringing them into NATO. Then there were disagreements over Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, and now more recently Georgia. NATO and Russia have been heading towards a confrontation for sometime, whether it be political or god-forbid military.

And thus letting Georgia get away with being absolute pricks. Yeah. That'd be a great message to the world:

"Hey, if you level a civilian city that is mostly occupied with people of a different ethnicity, and a neighbor country steps in to stop you from doing so, we are going to let you get off scott free! Yeah! Go you!"

Hmm... doesn't exactly sound that great, does it?

Russia doesn't care about genocide just like the US doesn't care either. If we did we would both be in Darfur right now. They care about standing in the way of NATO expansion and expanding their own borders.

Ooooh.

You Alaskans need the gas a bit more than we do, too, given the locale.You might get a kick out of this, then ...
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/487182.html

True but I don't think they'll stand idly by either. This has been an on going issue since the fall of the Soviet Union. Western Europe, mainly old NATO countries, were all for embracing their fomer enemies and bringing them into NATO. Then there were disagreements over Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, and now more recently Georgia. NATO and Russia have been heading towards a confrontation for sometime, whether it be political or god-forbid military.

Perhaps, but getting into a conflict with Russia is certainly against the interest of Europe. Europe will avoid a conflict with Russia at all costs, even if it means dissolving NATO.

You might get a kick out of this, then ...
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/487182.html

Interesting...hope you get your dividend soon.

Perhaps, but getting into a conflict with Russia is certainly against the interest of Europe. Europe will avoid a conflict with Russia at all costs, even if it means dissolving NATO.

Dissolve NATO, now that I seriously doubt. A lot of those countries still depend on the US to defend their nations and although the threat is reduced since the fall of the Berlin Wall, I doubt there about to get rid of all that military aid and training. We train half their militaries and sell them a lot of their equipment. Unless your talking about France, the United Kingdom, Germany, or Italy; there aren't to many nations that I think could make it on their own without all that aid. They've become to accustomed to it. Plus all those jobs created by US bases in their countries would hurt their economies. I don't think they'll be a war between NATO in Russia, but I think a few diplomatic sanctions and boycotts are in order.

Dissolve NATO, now that I seriously doubt. A lot of those countries still depend on the US to defend their nations and although the threat is reduced since the fall of the Berlin Wall, I doubt there about to get rid of all that military aid and training. We train half their militaries and sell them a lot of their equipment. Unless your talking about France, the United Kingdom, Germany, or Italy; there aren't to many nations that I think could make it on their own without all that aid. They've become to accustomed to it. Plus all those jobs created by US bases in their countries would hurt their economies. I don't think they'll be a war between NATO in Russia, but I think a few diplomatic sanctions and boycotts are in order.

NATO is nigh outdated. The EU is going to replace NATO in the next decade. If the US pushes Europe towards any sort of confrontation with Russia, they'll pull out just like that. Europe wants to be comfortable. It needs oil. Russian oil.

NATO is nigh outdated. The EU is going to replace NATO in the next decade. If the US pushes Europe towards any sort of confrontation with Russia, they'll pull out just like that. Europe wants to be comfortable. It needs oil. Russian oil.

I don't know how outdated it is when they are having problems with Islamic extremists, Russia is rebuilding its military, and Eastern European nations are trying to join left and right. What you might see is France and a few other nations withdraw, but to see it fully disappear I doubt. Not to mention as I said before, their military training is still heavly US based, especially their air forces. Pretty much every NATO nation sends their aircrews to the US to train regularly. Whether it be Red Flag or the Joint NATO pilot training. Furthermore those bases employ hundreds of thousands if not millions of locals if you include all the communities and services that have cropped up around them. I definately think US influence is going to decrease in the coming years in NATO, you may see SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe) a traditionally US held position, go to a European leader. But to completely dissolve NATO I think won't happen anytime within the next 50 years.

I don't know how outdated it is when they are having problems with Islamic extremists, Russia is rebuilding its military, and Eastern European nations are trying to join left and right. What you might see is France and a few other nations withdraw, but to see it fully disappear I doubt. Not to mention as I said before, their military training is still heavly US based, especially their air forces. Pretty much every NATO nation sends their aircrews to the US to train regularly. Whether it be Red Flag or the Joint NATO pilot training. Furthermore those bases employ hundreds of thousands if not millions of locals if you include all the communities and services that have cropped up around them. I definately think US influence is going to decrease in the coming years in NATO, you may see SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe) a traditionally US held position, go to a European leader. But to completely dissolve NATO I think won't happen anytime within the next 50 years.

Europe is far less ideological then the US. Theycare far more about the comfort of their citizens and the size of their economy then doing what is morally right, if there is such a thing. Europe will accept Russian domination of the continent as long as the oil keeps flowing. Europe will do anything it can to keep their citizens safe. Russia is not a threat to the powers that be in Europe.

I don't know how outdated it is when they are having problems with Islamic extremists, Russia is rebuilding its military, and Eastern European nations are trying to join left and right. What you might see is France and a few other nations withdraw, but to see it fully disappear I doubt. Not to mention as I said before, their military training is still heavly US based, especially their air forces. Pretty much every NATO nation sends their aircrews to the US to train regularly. Whether it be Red Flag or the Joint NATO pilot training. Furthermore those bases employ hundreds of thousands if not millions of locals if you include all the communities and services that have cropped up around them. I definately think US influence is going to decrease in the coming years in NATO, you may see SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe) a traditionally US held position, go to a European leader. But to completely dissolve NATO I think won't happen anytime within the next 50 years.

I highly doubt France would consider 'withdrawing' considering it's current leadership, and their expressed desire to get closer with the USA.

Interesting...hope you get your dividend soon.
Thank you. *bows*
I'm certainly going to need it, if i stay up here.

Keeping its citizens safe and happy don't include Russian domination, if they did all those Eastern European nations wouldn't be joining NATO. Europe wouldn't be publically denouncing this invasion. I think you don't give enough credit to the Europeans and there resolve. Also don't read to much into the US being ideological. We would have invaded Sudan, Iran, North Korea, and everyother corrupt dictatorship in the world by now if we were that ideological. The Europeans wants peace, and the general sentiment in Europe towards Russia is that it contributes about as much to peace as Osama bin Laden contributes to the betterment of humanity. Besides the general disapproval of US actions in the Middle East, Europe likes the US and the trade that goes with it. They're not going to sacrafice their economies, security, and well-being to avoid pissing off the Russians. They've been pissing off the Russians since the end of WW II and I doubt they're going to switch sides over a conflict in Georgia. Europe is just as dependent on the US as the US is dependent on Europe. Plus even though the Cold War ended almost 20 years ago now, they still have not called for a disbandment of NATO, in fact many of the newer members have called for more US aid and a strengthing of NATO. In all the years I lived in Europe I never found one person who thought going with the Russians would make things better then sticking by the US.

I highly doubt France would consider 'withdrawing' considering it's current leadership, and their expressed desire to get closer with the USA.

They even agreed to be in NATOs combined military structure for the first time since De Gaulle took them out.

Keeping its citizens safe and happy don't include Russian domination, if they did all those Eastern European nations wouldn't be joining NATO. Europe wouldn't be publically denouncing this invasion. I think you don't give enough credit to the Europeans and there resolve. Also don't read to much into the US being ideological. We would have invade Sudan, Iran, North Korea, and everyother corrupt dictatorship in the world by now if we were that ideological. The Europeans wants peace, and the general sentiment in Europe towards Russia is that it contributes about as much to peace as Osama bin Laden contributes to the betterment of humanity. Besides the general disapproval of US actions in the Middle East, Europe likes the US and the trade that goes with it. They're not going to sacrafice their economies, security, and well-being to avoid pissing off the Russians. They've been pissing off the Russians since the end of WW II and I doubt their going to switch sides over a conflict in Georgia. Europe is just as dependent on the US as the US is dependent on Europe. Plus even though the Cold War ended almost 20 years ago now, they still have not called for a disbandment of NATO, in fact many of the newer members have called for more US aid and a strengthing of NATO.

I just can't see Europe following the US into a confrontation with an energy rich Russia they desperately need. The US is no longer needed in Europe. Europe is just looking for an excuse to kick them out. A conflict would be a perfect reason to end the military dependancy.

I just can't see Europe following the US into a confrontation with an energy rich Russia they desperately need. The US is no longer needed in Europe. Europe is just looking for an excuse to kick them out. A conflict would be a perfect reason to end the military dependancy.

They have had a lot of excuses they could have used, and they haven't used them yet. I doubt the US poo-pooing the Russian invasion is going to be the straw that broke the camels back. The biggest excuse they had was the end of the Cold War and they didn't do it. In fact their haven't been any talks about disbanding NATO since 1995. I'd like to know where you're getting your information, because it flies in the face of everything I've learned in my college classes and read.

I'm going to bed now, I'll look at your response, if you have one, in the morning.

They have had a lot of excuses they could have used, and they haven't used them yet. I doubt the US poo-pooing the Russian invasion is going to be the straw that broke the camels back. The biggest excuse they had was the end of the Cold War and they didn't do it. In fact their haven't been any talks about disbanding NATO since 1995. I'd like to know where you're getting your information, because it flies in the face of everything I've learned in my college classes and read.

Its all backdoor stuff. Europe isn't going to come out and say it. With the rise of Union Europe and the enlargement of NATO, Europe doesn't want to be lead by a wildcard nation with a fetish for making things explode.

It looks like Georgia pulled out of South Ossetia, but Russia is refusing a cease fire. This could be unpleasant.

It looks like Georgia pulled out of South Ossetia, but Russia is refusing a cease fire. This could be unpleasant.

Not to sound pessimistic or whatnot, but source?

It looks like Georgia pulled out of South Ossetia, but Russia is refusing a cease fire. This could be unpleasant.

A lot of the other eastern bloc nations have demanded that NATO step in.
http://www.president.lt/en/news.full/9475

Joint Declaration of Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian and Polish Presidents on the situation in Georgia
09.08.2008

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.
We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia.
Following the unilateral military actions of the Russian military forces, we will use all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers. To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:

- Can the current Russian authorities be called adequate strategic partners of the EU;
- Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;
- It is pointless to continue a “visa facilitation” program with a country that does not meet even the minimal requirements set by the EU and which uses visa facilitation to issue Russian Federation passports to foreigners and then abuses this EU given privilege to claim intervention rights such as "we are protecting Russian citizens" in South Ossetia.
- The actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia should influence the talks with the Russian Federation, including negotiations on the new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.
We underline the obvious bankruptcy of Russian “peacekeeping operations” in its immediate neighbourhood. The Russian Federation has overstepped a red-line in keeping the peace and stability in the conflict zone and in protecting Russian citizens outside its own borders.
The EU and NATO must take the initiative and stand-up against the spread of imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe. New international peacekeeping forces should be created as the current setting proved to be ineffective.
We regret that not granting of the NATO’s Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia was seen as a green light for agression in the region.
We believe that the EU and NATO as the key organizations for European and Transatlantic stability and security should play a leading and crucial role in securing freedom, security and prosperity of countries not only in the EU but also in the neighboring European area.
It a litmus-test for the credibility of the EU and NATO to solve the conflict in its immediate neighborhood and to prove for all EU and NATO members, aspirant countries and democratic partners that it is worth being members and partners of these organizations.

This Declaration is open for the accession by the leaders of other democratic countries.

President of the Republic of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves
President of the Republic of Latvia Valdis Zatlers
President of the Republic of Lithuania Valdas Adamkus
President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

The EU needs THOSE nations' support also, if oil doesn't go through them, it doesn't go through to western Europe.


I'm worried that they might just decide to start attacks on Russia in retalitation. There is a lot of hate in the former occuiped countries.

While it would be a very huge dose of Irony for Russia to be attacked by it's former controlled countries, it would be a futile guesture even with Russia being much weaker than in the Cold war.

It looks like Georgia pulled out of South Ossetia, but Russia is refusing a cease fire. This could be unpleasant.

That is one of the biggest understatements of all time. This IS going to get VERY ugly very soon.

Not to sound pessimistic or whatnot, but source?

At a meeting of the U.N. Security Council Saturday, the third in three days on the issue, Russia refused to agree to a cease-fire or a diplomatic agreement. The move ensured that the fighting with Georgia would keep spilling into other regions such as Abkhazia’s Kodori Ridge, where 15 U.N. military observers were told to evacuate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26080747


A lot of the other eastern bloc nations have demanded that NATO step in.
http://www.president.lt/en/news.full/9475

The EU needs THOSE nations' support also, if oil doesn't go through them, it doesn't go through to western Europe.

I'm worried that they might just decide to start attacks on Russia in retalitation. There is a lot of hate in the former occuiped countries.

While it would be a very huge dose of Irony for Russia to be attacked by it's former controlled countries, it would be a futile guesture even with Russia being much weaker than in the Cold war.


If they attack, and Russia (naturally) defends itself, they can and will invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter. Meaning that NATO will be at war with Russia.

-----------------------------

In other, more shittier news, 4000 Russian Naval Infantry landed in Abkhazia, another breakaway republic. Rumors say that they might start attacks on Georgian forces stationed in Georgian controlled areas of the "state". Georgia states that upwards of 10,000 Russian troops have moved into those disputed areas.

Oh, and a Naval Blockade.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/

Friends, this is not Russian defense of South Ossetia. This is an Invasion. This was preplanned from the getgo.

And, exactly, why? They ought let Georgia burn down Ossetia, where 99% of the population are either Ossetian or Russian?

Sorry, wrong. Until this war about 20% of south Ossetia was ethnic Georgian, so I smell a rigged referendum.

If they attack, and Russia (naturally) defends itself, they can and will invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter. Meaning that NATO will be at war with Russia.

Yep, and I have a bad feeling it's on the table, oh and Ukraine sent their Foreign Vice-Minister to Tbilisi two days ago according to the Lithuania President. Ukraine is already ticked with Russia, and they can put some serious hurt of Russia if need be.


In other, more shittier news, 4000 Russian Naval Infantry landed in Abkhazia, another breakaway republic. Which hadn't been having any real problems from what I heard.

Rumors say that they might start attacks on Georgian forces stationed in Georgian controlled areas of the "state". Georgia states that upwards of 10,000 Russian troops have moved into those disputed areas. I bet that those 'disputed areas' will continue to grow and grow as more "Russian Citizens" magically appear.


Oh, and a Naval Blockade.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/

**** the black sea fleet blockading something OUTSIDE the battle area.
There goes any attempt at aiding them from Sea.


Friends, this is not Russian defense of South Ossetia. This is an Invasion. This was preplanned from the getgo.
Yep... This is it people, this is what we feared all throughout the cold war that would never happen. Russia invades an nation in which our allies have interest in.

Russia has not agreed to a cease fire yet because they are disputing the Georgian claim of withdrawel from South Ossetia. Whether the Russians are merely using this as an excuse or whether it is true remains to be seen.

Yep, and I have a bad feeling it's on the table, oh and Ukraine sent their Foreign Vice-Minister to Tbilisi two days ago according to the Lithuania President. Ukraine is already ticked with Russia, and they can put some serious hurt of Russia if need be.


Aye, I wouldn't be suprised if the Ukraine was fasttracked for NATO after this.

Which hadn't been having any real problems from what I heard.

No, nothing in recent memory. The front has been pretty stable. I don't think there was much fighting


I bet that those 'disputed areas' will continue to grow and grow as more "Russian Citizens" magically appear.

TMK, there arn't alot of Russians in Abkhazia. But they'll surely help the locals with whatever they need.

**** the black sea fleet blockading something OUTSIDE the battle area.
There goes any attempt at aiding them from Sea.


Yep... This is it people, this is what we feared all throughout the cold war that would never happen. Russia invades an nation in which our allies have interest in.

Yup. The bombing of civilian and strategic targets, the amphibious landing in Abkhazia, and the port blockade. I think we're finally getting a clearer picture of Russian intentions. Russia planned this. Russia prodded Georgia in the direction they wanted. Georgia took the bait. Russia executed their Fall Gelb. And now, all we can do is sit back, wait, and see if Georgia will exist next week.

Russia has not agreed to a cease fire yet because they are disputing the Georgian claim of withdrawel from South Ossetia. Whether the Russians are merely using this as an excuse or whether it is true remains to be seen.

Georgian troops were already in South Ossetia (I finally learned to spell that, kickass) per the peace plan. From what Georgia said (take it for what it's worth), they've withdrawn from the disputed areas, and are back to their original lines.

I've heard on the radio this morning that Russian troops were in Georgia itself.

Right. I reread this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm

Putin actually wants their withdrawal altogether from South Ossetia, not just to their previous lines.

And yes, the sending of troops into various other areas of Georgia is rather unnecessary if they're just "protecting South Ossetia." No matter what Georgia would try to move in, they're simply outclassed by Russia, so there'd be no need to go to such lengths.

We may very well be seeing a move towards full annexation here.

Ok, confirmed. Georgian troops have withdrawn to prewar boarders.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html

Ball's in Russia's court now.

I've heard on the radio this morning that Russian troops were in Georgia itself.
*Hums Hell March Theme*
Seriously that's about all I can think about it.

Before we all vanish into a nuclear fireball, I just want to say our coverage here has been outstanding. We give a clear, consise picture of the events in Georgia, and provide informative commentary from all sides of the issue. We should replace CNN.

It's strange than nobody asked to South Ossetians what they really want !!!

If they don't want be Georgian, why they would be it ?

Oh yeah, that's true, Georgia is a good friend of Europe and US, so we have to say "territorial integrity", but for not for Kosova. Serbia is a friend of Russia, so, they cannot have their "territorial integrity"...

I'm really shocked than everybody didn't care about what Ossetian are thinking, would like to be... Really shocked when I'm seeing than the futur of South Ossetia is not depending of itself but of US, EU, Russia... TV ( Andorran TV, French TV, Spanish TV, BBC, CNN ) and papres are just talking about interest of the region, Gaz, Petrol, NATO and its relationship with Gerogia, ...

WHERE FREEDOM IS ?

Before we all vanish into a nuclear fireball, I just want to say our coverage here has been outstanding. We give a clear, consise picture of the events in Georgia, and provide informative commentary from all sides of the issue. We should replace CNN.

I'll be sure to call up James Earl Jones.

"This...Is NSG."

Before we all vanish into a nuclear fireball, I just want to say our coverage here has been outstanding. We give a clear, consise picture of the events in Georgia, and provide informative commentary from all sides of the issue. We should replace CNN.

Agreed, maybe I should just start referring people to NSG threads instead of News Articles from now on. Everyone here takes the info as it comes in, weighs it in with the points of view, centralizes it into being more or less unbiased, and debates possible outcomes. We have people providing Military estimates, political experts, idealogy experts, and even citzens of one of the countries.

News sites should commission this place.

This just got a hell of a lot worse. Russia is bombing Tbilisi.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-09-ossetia-fighting_N.htm?csp=34

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — Russia expanded its bombing blitz Sunday against neighboring U.S.-allied Georgia, targeting the country's capital for the first time while Georgian troops pulled out of the capital of the contested province of South Ossetia under heavy Russian shelling.
Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said the Georgian troops had to move out of Tskhinvali because of heavy Russian fire.

"Russia further escalated its aggression overnight, using weapons on unprecedented scale. In these conditions our forces conducted redeployment," Lomaia said.

Russian jets raided a plant on the eastern outskirts of Tbilisi that builds Su-25 ground jets used by Georgia in the conflict. The attack inflicted some damage to its runways but caused no casualties, said Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.

"We heard a plane go over and then a big explosion," said Malkhaz Chachanidze, a 41-year old ceramics artist whose house is located just outside the fence of the factory, which has been running since the Soviet era. "It woke us up, everything shook."

Russian jets have been roaming Georgia's skies since Friday. They raided several air bases and bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

The Russian warplanes also struck near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline which carries Caspian crude to the West, but no supply interruptions have been reported.

U.S. President George W. Bush called for an end to the Russian bombings and an immediate halt to the violence.

"The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia. They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis," Bush said in a statement to reporters while attending the Olympic Games in Beijing.

Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili called it an "unprovoked brutal Russian invasion."

A Russian raid on Gori near South Ossetia Saturday which apparently targeted a military base on the town's outskirts left numerous civilian casualties.

An Associated Press reporter who visited the town shortly after the strike saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.

Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.

"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.

Saakashvili on Saturday proposed a cease-fire, but Russia said it wants Georgia to first pull its troops from South Ossetia and sign a pledge not to use force against the breakaway province.

The diplomatic standoff continued Saturday in the U.N. Security Council, which met for the third time since late Thursday night to try to help resolve the situation. Another meeting requested by Georgia was scheduled for Sunday afternoon.

Georgia, a U.S. ally whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, launched the major offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday. Heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes pounded the provincial capital, Tskhinvali.

Lavrov told reporters Saturday that some 1,500 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, with the death toll rising. The figures could not be independently confirmed.

But Tskhinvali residents who survived the bombardment by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died. They said bodies were lying everywhere.

Lomaia, Georgia's Security Council chief, estimated that Russia sent 2,500 troops into Georgia. He said Georgian troops retreated from Tskhinvali Sunday as Russian intensified artillery shelling and air bombardment.

A Russian general said already Saturday that his troops had driven the Georgian troops out of the city.

In Saturday's meeting with refugees in the city of Vladikavkaz across the border, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin described Georgia's actions as "complete genocide. Putin also said Georgia had effectively lost the right to rule the breakaway province — an indication Moscow could be preparing to fulfill South Ossetians' wish to be absorbed into Russia.

The risk of the conflict setting off a wider war also increased when Russian-supported separatists in another Georgia's breakaway region, Abkhazia, launched air and artillery strikes on Georgian troops to drive them out of a small part of the province they control. 15 U.N. military observers were told to evacuate.

Georgia's Foreign Ministry said the country was "in a state of war" and accused Russia of beginning a "massive military aggression." The Georgian parliament approved a state of martial law, mobilizing reservists and ordering government authorities to work round-the-clock.

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev said that Moscow sent troops into South Ossetia to protect its peacekeepers and civilians on a mission to "enforce peace." He said that Russia would seek to bring the Georgian attackers to criminal responsibility.

Medvedev said he was ordering the military prosecutor to document crimes against civilians in South Ossetia.

Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Today, Russia has approximately 30 times more people than Georgia and 240 times the area.

Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow. Russia has granted its passports to most of their residents.

Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on Washington, which has trained Georgian troops. Washington, in turned, blamed Russia.

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Bush had spoken with both Medvedev and Saakashvili. But it was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting — both claim the other violated a cease-fire declared Thursday.

Georgia said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, including four brought down Saturday, according to Lomaia. It also claimed to have captured two Russian pilots, who were shown on Georgian television.

Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the General Staff, confirmed Saturday that two Russian planes had been shot down, but did not say where or when.

Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers have been killed and about 150 wounded in South Ossetia, accusing Georgian troops of killing and wounding Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. The allegations couldn't be independently confirmed.

In Abkhazia, the separatist government said it intended to push Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.

Separatist forces also were concentrating on the border with Georgia's Zugdidi region, and Russia's NTV television reported that additional Russian troops landed in Abkhazia Sunday, heading in the same direction.

Russia also has sent a naval squadron to blockade Georgia's Black Sea coast, the Interfax news agency reported. A Russian Navy spokesman refused to comment on the report.

Lomaia, the Georgian security chief, confirmed that Russia has imposed what he called an "illegal blockade" on Georgia and turned back several ships with humanitarian supplies.

Lomaia said that Georgian administrative buildings and two villages in Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge were bombed by Russians. He said there were no casualties.

Lomaia said that Russians also raided a Georgian military facility in the Zugdidi region just south of Abkhazia, inflicting no casualties.

That's not good. Are the Russians deliberately trying to bring the rest of the world in?

If Russia is bombing strategic targets deep within Georgia proper, it tells me they're in it for the long haul.

If Russia is bombing strategic targets deep within Georgia proper, it tells me they're in it for the long haul.

This is an all-out invasion of Georgia.

If Russia is bombing the capital it tells me they're trying to completely destroy Georgia.

I'm off to bed. Hopefully the world doesn't end in the few hours of sleep I get. For all I know, NATO might be at war by the time I wake up.

also cocks

levity

Same here, I wonder if we'll have news of several bordering nations moving troops towards the Russia Border.

This is an all-out invasion of Georgia.

I wouldn't be surprised, Georgia has been poking the Russians in the side for a while at the same time snuggling up to the Americans. Still i hope the Russians are just primarily interested in making sure Gerogia keeps its place in the Russian order of things, rather than operating a total occupation which is a probably what they're preparing for should Georgia refuse to accept Russian demands on their medium-term foreign polcy and territorial recognition.

Well, with NATO right up to their border now, Russia was bound to assert itself sooner or later.

I wouldn't be surprised, Georgia has been poking the Russians in the side for a while at the same time snuggling up to the Americans. Still i hope the Russians are just primarily interested in making sure Gerogia keeps its place in the Russian order of things, rather than operating a total occupation which is a probably what they're preparing for should Georgia refuse to accept Russian demands on their medium-term foreign polcy and territorial recognition.

Given their record in Chechnya, they're not too likely to go with a full occupation from the outset just yet, at least until we can confirm if there are ground troops inside of Georgia. It's possible that Putin intends to get number of concessions out of Georgia, anywhere from being reabsorbed into the Russian Federation willingly to existing as a buffer state between NATO and Russia, much like how North Korea buffers China from American forces in South Korea.

Don't think Mikhael is going to last the month as President though.

Until this war about 20% of south Ossetia was ethnic Georgian, so I smell a rigged referendum.
Actually, no. The referendum has been vigorously internationally monitored.
But I've read a bit into the situation, and it's this:

There are two governments in South Ossetia, one is the independent Republic, another "Provisional Administration", both de-facto independent. About 80-90% of people, including virtually all Ossetians and Russians, and some of the Georgian minority, are in the former.
There are also ~10-20% that never joined the independence movement and consider themselves to live in the latter. They're physically divided, with all cities being in the Republic and most villages in the Provisional Administration (even its capital is a village), but intermixed.

The referendum was held by the Republic, so obviously it was within the Republic, and recognizing yourself as a citizen of the Republic pretty much means already supporting separation. So basically the referendum was held among those that already said yes de-facto.
That's where the high numbers come from. Most Georgians there live in the villages, and as they don't consider themselves in the Republic, they didn't vote.
Still, a great majority (~80%) of people there are in the Republic. So this comes at a minimum of 80% support.

Its going to be the same as Afghanistan people.
Georgia is backed up by the Americans. Remember Afg being backed by the CIA?

Im a bit scared though.

Personally, I'd like to see Russia's murderous army wiped off the face of the Earth, and their "Federation" (A.K.A. the NEW Russian Empire, the NEW U.S.S.R.) freed from Moscow. Their murderous antics such as those shown in Chechnja and Afghanistan will almost certainly be replicated in Georgia. If the Georgians are doing anything wrong, then it's the UN's job or NATO's job to deal with them. I wouldn't trust the notorious Russian army with one civilian, let alone a whole nation of them.

Now, please feel free to debunk my point, and prove that Russia really should be there xD

P.S. OK, so I made the point very extremely, but I'm talking about the institutionalised murder that takes place whenever Russia's army carries out an occupation.

Huh... Personally, I'd like the balls to be within the body, like ovaries, and the penis retract completely when not in use. And fire strictly along the axis, with a line on the top for better aiming, and more pressure, so that it never misses even when it's storming.

Personally, I'd like to see Russia's murderous army wiped off the face of the Earth, and their "Federation" (A.K.A. the NEW Russian Empire, the NEW U.S.S.R.) freed from Moscow. Their murderous antics such as those shown in Chechnja and Afghanistan will be replicated in. If the Georgians are doing anything wrong, then it's the UN's job or NATO's job to deal with them. I wouldn't trust the notorious Russian army with one civilian, let alone a whole nation of them.

Now, please feel free to debunk my point, and prove that Russia really should be there xD

NATO has no obligation whatsoever to be involved in affairs that do not affect NATO member nations. NATO specifically, is an organization for collective defense. Georgia is supposedly the aggressor here, on a non NATO territory.

NATO cannot operate in Georgia or Ossetia.

The UN can only intervene militarily at the request of a recognized state, and only in peacekeeping or such similar actions within the state's borders. The UN cannot intervene as a military force in conflicts between nations.

Point debunked.

That's the Russian ambassador to the UK stating on BBC Radio4 that the action in South Ossetia is akin to a "police action", and that this is about a "prevention of warcrimes, of genocide". Moreover, he doesn't definitively rule out pushing Russian troops past the South Ossetian border.

We'll see in a few hours shan't we? That being said, Russia is moving very quickly, for one that wasn't prepared (otherwise troops would have massed on the borders earlier) for a sudden movement like this.

That's not good. Are the Russians deliberately trying to bring the rest of the world in?

If Russia is bombing strategic targets deep within Georgia proper, it tells me they're in it for the long haul.

This is an all-out invasion of Georgia.

If Russia is bombing the capital it tells me they're trying to completely destroy Georgia.

Again, we don't really know the Russian's intentions. Why don't we want and see before we declare the sky to be falling?

Also, regarding the list of Russian bombing targets, look at how many of them have no casualties. Are the Russians that incompetent or are they trying to keep the casualty count down?

We'll see in a few hours shan't we? That being said, Russia is moving very quickly, for one that wasn't prepared (otherwise troops would have massed on the borders earlier) for a sudden movement like this.

This has been brewing for a while. Russia shot down some Georgian UAVs last month (or maybe the month before, I don't know).

And as for the Russians moving into Abkhazia, I think Abkhazia is Russia's chosen Kosovo. S. Ossetia isn't very well positioned to be a new state but Abkhazia is. Russian troops are likely moving there to secure the Kodori Gorge, the one part of Abkhazia that the Georgian military still controls.

This has been brewing for a while. Russia shot down some Georgian UAVs last month (or maybe the month before, I don't know).

And as for the Russians moving into Abkhazia, I think Abkhazia is Russia's chosen Kosovo. S. Ossetia isn't very well positioned to be a new state but Abkhazia is. Russian troops are likely moving there to secure the Kodori Gorge, the one part of Abkhazia that the Georgian military still controls.

Oh, I'm not denying that the tensions have been peaked the last few weeks, but Russia didn't seem to be expecting Georgia to move anytime soon, or at least during the Olympics. Surely if they were, their troop readiness levels would have been much higher and they would have been closer to the flashpoint prior to the beginning of hostilities.

In either case, it remains to be seen whether Putin intends to fully annex Georgia, or blackmail it into staying out of NATO by utterly suppressing them while keeping them as a buffer state. That can only be ascertained if Russian ground forces begin making inroads into Georgia itself.

In either case, it remains to be seen whether Putin intends to fully annex Georgia, or blackmail it into staying out of NATO by utterly suppressing them while keeping them as a buffer state. That can only be ascertained if Russian ground forces begin making inroads into Georgia itself.
Annexation is most clearly not going to happen. He doesn't need Georgia; it's a poor developing country, small, with no valuable resources, with hostile population - while Russia has lots of land and steady immigration of Chinese, much better people.

The whole thing for Russia is a matter of international prestige. For one time in their latest history, they're doing something right - defending a de facto independent nation-state from aggression; if it was being done by US, no one would say a word against it. After the war is over, emotions are over, press has time to exchange information, etc., it will ultimately be sorted out. This, so, is needed to Putin to establish that Russia not only can protect its friendly nations, but will actually do so, and as such it makes sense to align with Russia.

The only part they might end up annexing is South Ossetia itself, but then it's been a Russian territory in all but the name for the last 16 years (and over 200 if counting USSR and Imperial times). This would only depend on what they decide to be better for national prestige, as we're talking about a tiny nation with a populace of 60,000. But then it would be reuniting with North Ossetia.

Way to go Ukraine!!!:)

They just signed a pact with Georgia, they're going to blockade Russian ships.

georgia says,it has declared an unilateral ceasefire.

Annexation is most clearly not going to happen. He doesn't need Georgia; it's a poor developing country, small, with no valuable resources, with hostile population - while Russia has lots of land and steady immigration of Chinese, much better people.

The whole thing for Russia is a matter of international prestige. For one time in their latest history, they're doing something right - defending a de facto independent nation-state from aggression; if it was being done by US, no one would say a word against it. After the war is over, emotions are over, press has time to exchange information, etc., it will ultimately be sorted out. This, so, is needed to Putin to establish that Russia not only can protect its friendly nations, but will actually do so, and as such it makes sense to align with Russia.

The only part they might end up annexing is South Ossetia itself, but then it's been a Russian territory in all but the name for the last 16 years (and over 200 if counting USSR and Imperial times). This would only depend on what they decide to be better for national prestige, as we're talking about a tiny nation with a populace of 60,000. But then it would be reuniting with North Ossetia.

Certainly, it makes no strategic sense to annex Georgia, but the troops being massed there certainly make a temporary occupation and infrastructure demolition at the least a very real possibility.

If annexation and occupation is out of the picture, then humbling is the next. Utterly crush Georgian capability to retaliate, while drumming home what a bad idea it was to attack, keeping them in a state of respectful fear while they make it clear that entering NATO would be a bad idea for Georgia.

Certainly, it makes no strategic sense to annex Georgia, but the troops being massed there certainly make a temporary occupation and infrastructure demolition at the least a very real possibility.

If annexation and occupation is out of the picture, then humbling is the next. Utterly crush Georgian capability to retaliate, while drumming home what a bad idea it was to attack, keeping them in a state of respectful fear while they make it clear that entering NATO would be a bad idea for Georgia.

I honestly think this will only serve as encouragement for countries like Georgia and the Ukraine to join NATO. They can't defend themselves from Russian-Aggression.

I honestly think this will only serve as encouragement for countries like Georgia and the Ukraine to join NATO. They can't defend themselves from Russian-Aggression.

Maybe, maybe not. Russia is proving that it is willing to fight for territories friendly to it, and NATO's big players are a lot further away than a friendly/hostile Russia is. And let's not forget. NATO is unlikely to become involved in direct open war with Russia. They have enough nuclear missiles to end the civilized world after all, even if they'll go down doing so.

NATO and Russia both know that. NATO approval for new memberships will be tempered by how badly they want the territories to be aligned with them and how badly Russia wants to keep them unaligned.

Maybe, maybe not. Russia is proving that it is willing to fight for territories friendly to it, and NATO's big players are a lot further away than a friendly/hostile Russia is. And let's not forget. NATO is unlikely to become involved in direct open war with Russia. They have enough nuclear missiles to end the civilized world after all, even if they'll go down doing so.

NATO and Russia both know that. NATO approval for new memberships will be tempered by how badly they want the territories to be aligned with them and how badly Russia wants to keep them unaligned.

Yes I agree NATO will do everything it can diplomatically to avoid war with Russia, and I doubt this conflict is going to lead to it. However one of the major priorities of both the EU and NATO is to oppose the Russians, they view them as a threat militarily and economically. I think its more economics then military, but with Russia rebuilding its military, NATO and the EU are taking note. Georgia isn't friendly with the Russians, a couple of border provinces are that don't repersent a majority. What I think you will see when this conflict is over, is that the Russians will walkaway owning those border provinces and Georgia and the Ukraine will be brought into NATO. I really think even if a deal is brokered where Georgia won't join NATO. You are going to see the Ukraine quickly brought in. Other countries like Armeni will probably be brought in as well. This is only going to encourage NATO.

An intersting post (http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/08/10/0126232.shtml) over at /. about possible Russian cyberwarfare.

There's claims that many of Georgia’s internet servers were under external control from late Thursday

An intersting post (http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/08/10/0126232.shtml) over at /. about possible Russian cyberwarfare.

There's claims that many of Georgia’s internet servers were under external control from late Thursday

I wouldn't be surprised.

It's a lot like the Estonian attacks in a way. Makes me wonder if Russia has a hacker army.

Yeah, they just confirmed it on CNN.

http://www.government.gov.ge/eng/
http://www.presidpress.gov.ge/

Both sites seem to be totally jacked.

georgia says,it has declared an unilateral ceasefire.
Ah, the old "beg for mercy" trick, eh?

I honestly think this will only serve as encouragement for countries like Georgia and the Ukraine to join NATO. They can't defend themselves from Russian-Aggression.

emmmm.....It was Georgia who attacked Ossetia....

On a related note, the Irish football team still plan to play a match against Georgia, in Georgia on the 6th of September. Fuck your war, we've got a match to play!

Ah, the old "beg for mercy" trick, eh?

yeah but Russians say the Georgian troops are still shooting and the russians ignore the ceasefire

On a related note, the Irish football team still plan to play a match against Georgia, in Georgia on the 6th of September. Fuck your war, we've got a match to play!

That is fucking awesome.

emmmm.....It was Georgia who attacked Ossetia....

Yeah, that's what I'm not getting here. Everybody hears that Russia is in a war, and they automatically assume Russia started it. Yet, Georgia is the one being absolute pricks here. Russia really hasn't done much of any harm to Georgia, nor has invaded *yet*. So how it can be the "aggressor" is beyond me.

He doesn't need Georgia; it's a poor developing country, small, with no valuable resources. Wrong, South Ossetia, which I'm counting as part of Georgia, has zinc and lead, and Georgia has a mazzive oil pipeline running through it.

On a related note, the Irish football team still plan to play a match against Georgia, in Georgia on the 6th of September. Fuck your war, we've got a match to play!

Especially as they'll be distracted.......we could be in ftw.


Yeah, that's what I'm not getting here. Everybody hears that Russia is in a war, and they automatically assume Russia started it. Yet, Georgia is the one being absolute pricks here. Russia really hasn't done much of any harm to Georgia, nor has invaded *yet*. So how it can be the "aggressor" is beyond me. !

Because they're "pro-western" apparently. Personally I don't give a shit who they shout for, they started it, and are now getting their own people killed, on top of the Ossetians. Its a shame such a salutary shock wasn't given to the Israelis when they went into the Leb.

Hopefully as soon as they've been sent back to their own side of the border, the Russians will call it off.

emmmm.....It was Georgia who attacked Ossetia....

Georgia maintains that Ossetian rebels fired the first shots.

Yeah, that's what I'm not getting here. Everybody hears that Russia is in a war, and they automatically assume Russia started it. Yet, Georgia is the one being absolute pricks here. Russia really hasn't done much of any harm to Georgia, nor has invaded *yet*. So how it can be the "aggressor" is beyond me.

South Ossetia is part of Georgia, Russia just can't march in and take over.

South Ossetia is part of Georgia, Russia just can't march in and take over.

Let's look at the series of events:

Georgia violates ceasfire on thursday, hours after declared, and surprise attacks the autonomous "state"(The vast majority of the population don't want to be part of Georgia). Pretty much annihilates the Capital, and kill Russian peacekeepers.

As well, Russia isn't really taking over at all, at least not yet. This is just fear-mongering at its best, cuz we gats ta fear dem dare Russkies! They be teh ebil!

Georgia maintains that Ossetian rebels fired the first shots.

Rebels firing shots =/= surround capital.


South Ossetia is part of Georgia, Russia just can't march in and take over.
.

The South Ossetians beg to disagree. And it was Georgians who did the marching in.

Rebels firing shots =/= surround capital.

What does that even mean?

Georgia says Ossetians fired first, South Ossetia says Georgians fired first. We don't know who attacked whom first, so your claim that it was Georgia who attacked Ossetia is bogus. You don't know that for sure more than someone saying that Ossetia attacked Georgia does.

What does that even mean?

Georgia says Ossetians fired first, South Ossetia says Georgians fired first. We don't know who attacked whom first, so your claim that it was Georgia who attacked Ossetia is bogus. You don't know that for sure more than someone saying that Ossetia attacked Georgia does.

Take it up with the beeb.
Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".


The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".
.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm

Take it up with the beeb.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm

That's great, but I was actually referring to the beginning of the most recent fighting.

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18871

Also, kind of unrelated, but look at this and tell me it's not the biggest load of propaganda BS you've ever seen.

http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373298

It's actually rather fun to read.

Rebels firing shots =/= surround capital.
Did you think that Georgia would be a little fed up with the rebels if they fired shots after a CEASEFIRE?


The South Ossetians beg to disagree. And it was Georgians who did the marching in. I still think a "99%" agreement is total bullshit, there is no way ANY vote could get 99% even if it was for something like "Is eating babies morally okay" I would still think there would be a good 3 to 4 percent going "I don't know".

The whole thing stinks, if it's just that one single breakaway region, why are they landing troops on the other one?

Let's look at the series of events:

Georgia violates ceasfire on thursday, hours after declared, and surprise attacks the autonomous "state"(The vast majority of the population don't want to be part of Georgia). Pretty much annihilates the Capital, and kill Russian peacekeepers.

As well, Russia isn't really taking over at all, at least not yet. This is just fear-mongering at its best, cuz we gats ta fear dem dare Russkies! They be teh ebil!

First of all they violated it after the seperatists attacked Georgian civilians. As far as Russian"So Called Peacekeepers" getting killed, they were aiding the seperatists.

Rebels firing shots =/= surround capital.



The South Ossetians beg to disagree. And it was Georgians who did the marching in.

Well every nation in the world has recognized that land as being part of Georgia in the United Nations.

First of all they violated it after the seperatists attacked Georgian civilians. As far as Russian"So Called Peacekeepers" getting killed, they were aiding the seperatists.



Well every nation in the world has recognized that land as being part of Georgia in the United Nations.

The land is more Russian than Georgia and should of been ours. Georgia will be force to free the people and now can join us as they should of been able to a long time ago.

Georgia should be forced to pay for it crimes and if the U.N wont, than it is our job to.

The land is more Russian than Georgia and should of been ours. If that's the "Rules" for a country being independent. Then Russia needs to get out of Chechnya.

Georgia will be force to free the people and now can join us as they should of been able to a long time ago.

Georgia should be forced to pay for it crimes and if the U.N wont, than it is our job to.
Putting down a civil war isn't a crime. Interfering with someone's civil war is however.

The land is more Russian than Georgia and should of been ours. Georgia will be force to free the people and now can join us as they should of been able to a long time ago.

Georgia should be forced to pay for it crimes and if the U.N wont, than it is our job to.

And I'm sure the Russians will return the favor and pay for all the civilians they have killed in this little fiasco, last time I checked it 1,500, the Georgians had only killed about six civilians when this whole fiasco began. Russia isn't interested in the well being of a minority group in Georgia. They are trying to show the West they still got the muscle to get what they want. They're affraid of NATO expansion, which is the only thing standing between Putin and all his other buddies. This war follows a major military exercise between NATO, the US, Ukraine, Georgia, and other nations. Furthermore, after Georgia has said it would increase defense spending and seek to join NATO. Russia is just trying to stop its former republics from joining NATO.

If that's the "Rules" for a country being independent. Then Russia needs to get out of Chechnya.


Putting down a civil war isn't a crime. Interfering with someone's civil war is however.

You really didnt look at the wars that happened in Chechnya have you? You should, you will find most were terrosit. They brought the war to a school.

It is a crime, they are killing our people there.

Now Ukraine seems to want to join Georgia. These countries will pay for the killing that is taking place now.

And I'm sure the Russians will return the favor and pay for all the civilians they have killed in this little fiasco, last time I checked it 1,500, the Georgians had only killed about six civilians when this whole fiasco began. Russia isn't interested in the well being of a minority group in Georgia. They are trying to show the West they still got the muscle to get what they want. They're affraid of NATO expansion, which is the only thing standing between Putin and all his other buddies. This war follows a major military exercise between NATO, the US, Ukraine, Georgia, and other nations. Furthermore, after Georgia has said it would increase defense spending and seek to join NATO. Russia is just trying to stop its former republics from joining NATO.

Georgia has killed over 2000 people....

You really didnt look at the wars that happened in Chechnya have you? You should, you will find most were terrosit. They brought the war to a school.

It is a crime, they are killing our people there.

Now Ukraine seems to want to join Georgia. These countries will pay for the killing that is taking place now.

The first one wasn't. Why didn't Russia allow it to leave then?

The first one wasn't. Why didn't Russia allow it to leave then?

No they were always terroists.

Why did the U.S.A not let the south free?

Edited:

Why was it ok for Kosvo to be free than if not South Ossetia. The west picks and chosses who can be free just for their own needs.

No they were always terroists.

Why did the U.S.A not let the south free?

What terrorist acts did they commit between the dissolution of the USSR and 1996?

Why did the U.S.A not let the south free?
Because they were terroists?

Because they were terroists?

Worng they were not terroists.

Why did the U.S.A not let the south free?

Maintain a consistency in your position. Either all people who desire self-determination should have it, and Chechnya should be granted its independence, or territorial integrity should be maintained, in which case Georgia has every right to use the same kind of military force to keep South Ossetia in the nation as Russia did with Chechnya. You can't one the one hand say that the Chechens don't deserve independence, but the Ossetians do.

Worng they were not terroists.
Ahh. Terrorists, perhaps?

Edited:

Why was it ok for Kosvo to be free than if not South Ossetia. The west picks and chosses who can be free just for their own needs.

My main point is that Russia is hypocritical. It's sad you can't see that.

What terrorist acts did they commit between the dissolution of the USSR and 1996?

Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis! How about you look the facts up before you act like you know more than the people who are from the country.

Why was it ok for Kosvo to be free than if not South Ossetia. The west picks and chosses who can be free just for their own needs.

Why is it okay for Chechnya be denied independence, but not South Ossetia? Russia is exactly as hypocritical as you claim the west is.

My main point is that Russia is hypocritical. It's sad you can't see that.

If you want terroists free to run their own country than fine lets all live in your little screwd up world.

Why is it okay for Chechnya be denied independence, but not South Ossetia? Russia is exactly as hypocritical as you claim the west is.

HAVE YOU LOOKED UP THIS TOPIC AT ALL?! Chechnya was completly different in the fact separatists killed people who had nouthing to do with their fight.

If you are going to post about the separatist in Chechnya, I only ask you look up the facts before you start saying stuff that is JUST COMPLETLY FALSE.

HAVE YOU LOOKED UP THIS TOPIC AT ALL?! Chechnya was completly different in the fact separatists killed people who had nouthing to do with their fight.

No. You only want it to be different because you don't want to deal with your own hypocrisy. You gladly throw around "western hypocrisy" while you parade around on your high horse, but you refuse to acknowledge that Russia used the exact same methods to deny one of its own breakaway provinces independence that you now condemn Georgia for.

Unless you're claiming that all Chechen people do not deserve self-determination because some extremists used terrorist tactics.

Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis! How about you look the facts up before you act like you know more than the people who are from the country.

Good point. The Chechyns were out of order on that one. Still it helped stop the Russian aggression in the first Chechyn war didn't it?

Also, weren't more of the hostages killed by the Russian forces trying to storm the hospital than by the Chechyn hostage takers?

The whole incident really didn't paint the Russian authorities in a good light. Didn't it lead to a successful vote of no confidence in the Russian government?

If you are going to post about the separatist in Chechnya, I only ask you look up the facts before you start saying stuff that is JUST COMPLETLY FALSE.

Fact: Russia used military force to prevent the secession of Chechnya.

Fact: Georgia is trying to use military force to prevent the secession of South Ossetia.

Yet, somehow, in your deluded mind, Russia is totally justified while Georgia is not. Explain, without resorting to the very incorrect claim that, because Chechen extremists used terrorist tactics, no Chechen deserves independence.

If you want terroists free to run their own country than fine lets all live in your little screwd up world.

They weren't terrorists until the much larger Russian army forced the into a corner.

Good point. The Chechyns were out of order on that one. Still it helped stop the Russian aggression in the first Chechyn war didn't it?

Also, weren't more of the hostages killed by the Russian forces trying to storm the hospital than by the Chechyn hostage takers?

The whole incident really didn't paint the Russian authorities in a good light. Didn't it lead to a successful vote of no confidence in the Russian government?

No one would of died if they didnt take the hostages.

The frist war was poorly run. However the 2nd one was done right when Putin do power and thank god he did.

Georgia has killed over 2000 people....

Wow, assuming that figure repersents those dead since this thing started, that wouldn't have happened if Russia respected it neighbors.

Because they were terroists?

Worng they were not terroists.

All of you seem to understand very little about the US Civil War. It was about states rights and the fact that the issue hadn't been resolved since the American Revolution. The South didn't want to seceed from the Union, they felt forced to be because they felt their rights were being violated. The North wanted a strong national government. It was a question of how to run the government, not a question of ethnicity

Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis! How about you look the facts up before you act like you know more than the people who are from the country.

Despite my disagreements with this guy on Georgia, I do agree that those Chechyna fanatics are terrorists. They attack more civilian targets then military targets.

Fact: Russia used military force to prevent the secession of Chechnya.

Fact: Georgia is trying to use military force to prevent the secession of South Ossetia.

Yet, somehow, in your deluded mind, Russia is totally justified while Georgia is not. Explain, without resorting to the very incorrect claim that, because Chechen extremists used terrorist tactics, no Chechen deserves independence.

Fact: Georgia started this war. We warned them not to take military action against the poeple of South Ossetia, who many are Russians. Yet, they did. South Ossetia was more Russian than it was Georgia and it was a mistake they were put in Georgia.

No one would of died if they didnt take the hostages.

The frist war was poorly run. However the 2nd one was done right when Putin do power and thank god he did.

Ok, were there any terrorist acts before Budyonnovsk hospital?

Edit: Just reading up on the Budyonnovsk incident. The Russina authorities threated to execute 2000 Chechyn civilians in order to break the stalemate. How the fuck do you explain that?

Fact: Georgia started this war. We warned them not to take military action against the poeple of South Ossetia, who many are Russians. Yet, they did. South Ossetia was more Russian than it was Georgia and it was a mistake they were put in Georgia.

That's irrelevant to your hypocritical position that Russia is justified in denying Chechnya independence but Georgia is not justified in denying South Ossetia independence.

Personally, I agree that South Ossetia should be allowed to secede. As should Abkhazia. As should Chechnya and Dagestan, if they wish. I'm not coming down on the side of Georgia here. I'm just waiting for you to try to reconcile your two very contradictory opinions.

All of you seem to understand very little about the US Civil War.

All of us weren't being serious.

I'm quite surprised. Russia is notorious for mobilising slowly and yet troops got there so quickly!

And why do you need Paratroopers for a war of defence?

Luckily the Black Sea Fleet is full of poorly maintained ships so if the Georgians can hit it, they'd probably do a lot of damage. That'd teach them to pick a fight using crappy technology.

This whole thing has been manipulated by the Russians for their own ends. Putin for some reason is making the decisions and not the President.

Fact: Georgia started this war. We warned them not to take military action against the poeple of South Ossetia, who many are Russians. Yet, they did. South Ossetia was more Russian than it was Georgia and it was a mistake they were put in Georgia.

Georgia has the right to protect its citizens within its own borders. Just as Russia has a right to protect its citzens from Chechyna terrorists. And regardless of whether it was a mistake or not does not justify starting a war.

That's irrelevant to your hypocritical position that Russia is justified in denying Chechnya independence but Georgia is not justified in denying South Ossetia independence.

Personally, I agree that South Ossetia should be allowed to secede. As should Abkhazia. As should Chechnya and Dagestan, if they wish. I'm not coming down on the side of Georgia here. I'm just waiting for you to try to reconcile your two very contradictory opinions.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia is differnet than Chechnya. They tried to use terrosits ways of breaking off. There were many differnces and cannot compare them to Chechnya.

All of us weren't being serious.

Thank god, being in Texas I was starting to get worried...The South Will Rise Again!!!:p

I'm quite surprised. Russia is notorious for mobilising slowly and yet troops got there so quickly!

And why do you need Paratroopers for a war of defence?

Luckily the Black Sea Fleet is full of poorly maintained ships so if the Georgians can hit it, they'd probably do a lot of damage. That'd teach them to pick a fight using crappy technology.

This whole thing has been manipulated by the Russians for their own ends. Putin for some reason is making the decisions and not the President.

You can use paratroopers for defense, the Israelis have been doing it for ages, and the brits loved sending the 1st Parachute Regiment to Northern Ireland in th '70s and '80s.

I'm quite surprised. Russia is notorious for mobilising slowly and yet troops got there so quickly!

And why do you need Paratroopers for a war of defence?

Luckily the Black Sea Fleet is full of poorly maintained ships so if the Georgians can hit it, they'd probably do a lot of damage. That'd teach them to pick a fight using crappy technology.

This whole thing has been manipulated by the Russians for their own ends. Putin for some reason is making the decisions and not the President.

No we have done nouthing worng and Georgia is at fault. Also the Black Sea Fleet can handle anything Georgia throws at them.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia is differnet than Chechnya. They tried to use terrosits ways of breaking off. There were many differnces and cannot compare them to Chechnya.

The differences are irrelevant. They are all groups being denied self-determination. Either you support self-determination for ALL peoples or for none. You cannot be for Ossetian and Abkhazian independence but against Chechen independence. Your bias is showing.

The differences are irrelevant. They are all groups being denied self-determination. Either you support self-determination for ALL peoples or for none. You cannot be for Ossetian and Abkhazian independence but against Chechen independence. Your bias is showing.

So you think all the terrosits acts by Chechen were ok?

Your showing us the fact you have no heart.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia is differnet than Chechnya. They tried to use terrosits ways of breaking off. There were many differnces and cannot compare them to Chechnya.

I'm failing to see the difference...Chechnya terrorists attack Russian civilians with the goal of gaining independence and Ossetian terrorists attack Georgian civilians with the goal of gaining independence. Maybe I'm just stupid like that though.

The differences are irrelevant. They are all groups being denied self-determination. Either you support self-determination for ALL peoples or for none. You cannot be for Ossetian and Abkhazian independence but against Chechen independence. Your bias is showing.

That's a bit of a false dilemma, now isn't it? Not siding with anyone, here, but you can disagree with methodology, validity of claim, importance of territory, etc. There are many reasons you do not have to support self-determination for ALL peoples or NO peoples. That's just a silly thing to even say.

No we have done nouthing worng and Georgia is at fault. Also the Black Sea Fleet can handle anything Georgia throws at them.

Of course you haven't. You've invaded another country which didn't pose a threat to you. You're looking as bad as some of the US & her allies now.

The Black Sea Fleet, much like the rest of the Russian Navy, is horrifically overated. I could probably defeat it with a sack of weak hand grenades.

No we have done nouthing worng and Georgia is at fault.
Well, that's a given. Whatever the name - Soviet Union, Russia- they're always blameless.

The differences are irrelevant. They are all groups being denied self-determination. Either you support self-determination for ALL peoples or for none. You cannot be for Ossetian and Abkhazian independence but against Chechen independence. Your bias is showing.

You can so pick and choose and terrorists should never be rewarded with independence, that only encourages them.

So you think all the terrosits acts by Chechen were ok?

Your showing us the fact you have no heart.

I have heart, I don't like the Chechen terrorists either.


Oh and the Black Sea Fleet maybe a rust bucket of '70s and '80s equipment but its still a fairly effective rust bucket. If there is one thing you should never underestimate it is the Russian Navy. They are probably the most innovative and creative navy in the world, mostly because nothing ever works the way its supposed to.

No we have done nouthing worng and Georgia is at fault. Also the Black Sea Fleet can handle anything Georgia throws at them.

And the fact that the Ukraine is not going to permit the Black Sea Fleet to redock until Russia stops bullying Georgia? Your country's former victims might just gang up on you.

Of course you haven't. You've invaded another country which didn't pose a threat to you. You're looking as bad as some of the US & her allies now.

The Black Sea Fleet, much like the rest of the Russian Navy, is horrifically overated. I could probably defeat it with a sack of weak hand grenades.

Oh right I am sorry. Its not like Georgia killed Russian peace keepers or Russians in S. Ossetia. They didnt invade S. Ossetia when they did not provoke them. Ok, well you must be right.

Thats why we sink a war ship from Geogria? Wow...a sack of weak hand grenades huh?

That's great, but I was actually referring to the beginning of the most recent fighting..

No idea. I'm just saying that nothing seems to have happened which justifies a large scale strike of the kind they embarked on. They certainly don't seem to have though through the consequences either. It gives the Russians the opportunity to beat the shit out of them for a while, and they don't seem to have been too well prepared for that.


Did you think that Georgia would be a little fed up with the rebels if they fired shots after a CEASEFIRE?..

Presumably. However see above.

Well, that's a given. Whatever the name - Soviet Union, Russia- they're always blameless.

I dont support some thinks our country did in the past of course nor do other Russians.

Oh right I am sorry. Its not like Georgia killed Russian peace keepers or Russians in S. Ossetia. They didnt invade S. Ossetia when they did not provoke them. Ok, well you must be right.

Thats why we sink a war ship from Geogria? Wow...a sack of weak hand grenades huh?

I'm still waiting for a response to my post.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13911532&postcount=715

Oh right I am sorry. Its not like Georgia killed Russian peace keepers or Russians in S. Ossetia. They didnt invade S. Ossetia when they did not provoke them. Ok, well you must be right.



South Ossetia is part of Georgia, and the only way it could come undone from Georgia is if Russia invades and steals it away. South Ossetia is tiny, yet strategically significant to Georgia. It would be like, if the city of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, were to try to secede from the US, and take the entire Pacific Northwest with them.

So you think all the terrosits acts by Chechen were ok?

Your showing us the fact you have no heart.

No. I did not condone the tactics used by Chechnya. You can cease putting words in my mouth.

Both sides committed atrocities during the 1991-1992 war, as well. Neither side is without blood on their hands. In a war, it's hard to maintain moral integrity. To claim that the Ossetians have never done anything wrong in this conflict and are innocent victims is disingenuous.

The Russian Army killed tens of thousands of Chechen civilians during the First Chechen War, mostly during the destruction of Grozny (which looks much like the Georgian destruction of Tskhinvali). It's difficult to say that only Chechnya was in the wrong.

Why has Russia blockaded Georgian ports and hit strategic Georgian targets behind the front lines?

Thats why we sink a war ship from Geogria? Wow...a sack of weak hand grenades huh?

The biggest ship they have is this thing:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Dioskuria.jpg


So I would use war ship lightly.

Georgia attacked first. I hope russia wins this.

Oh right I am sorry. Its not like Georgia killed Russian peace keepers or Russians in S. Ossetia. They didnt invade S. Ossetia when they did not provoke them. Ok, well you must be right.

Thats why we sink a war ship from Geogria? Wow...a sack of weak hand grenades huh?

Wow you sunk a PT boat. Impressive.

It's the job of those peacekeepers to stop the Ossetians doing stuff to Georgia. Obviously they didn't. Great job :hail:

Now let us talk about the flagship of the BSF, the missile cruiser Moskva:

Moskva (ex-Slava)
The Moskva (ex-Slava), which had been in refit at the Nikolayev yard since December 1990, remained undelivered to the Russian Black Sea Fleet through the end of the millenium. No projected date for completion of this much-delayed work was known. The Moskva was finally returned to service in April 2000, replacing the Admiral Golokov as the flagship of the Black Sea fleet. The "Moskva" was finally re-commissioned with hull number "121" after its overhaul in 2000.

The low priority attached to this class was evident from the unusually long construction period of the units completed by the end of the Cold War, and the fact that only four units were laid down. The design is said to be marred by large quantities of flammable material and poor damage-control capabilities.

From Globalsecurity.org.

Wow, impressive. It might actually be more dangerous to the people using it :eek:

I'm still waiting for a response to my post.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13911532&postcount=715

They were killing inncoent people since the begging. If you support people who were at fault for the Beslan school hostage crisis, than theres no way I can even talk to you about this anymore.

We only targeted separatist forces. Now did some people die who shouldnt of? Yes it was a war and that happens in wars unforantly. However the separatist targeted no military targets as their targets thourghout the wars.

That's a bit of a false dilemma, now isn't it? Not siding with anyone, here, but you can disagree with methodology, validity of claim, importance of territory, etc. There are many reasons you do not have to support self-determination for ALL peoples or NO peoples. That's just a silly thing to even say.

From a moral absolutist standpoint? No. You cannot morally say "this group of people who seek self-determination should have it because of x, y, and z, but this group of people who seek self-determination do not deserve it because of a, b, and c." From a realist view, there are political reasons why it's not always feasible.

South Ossetia is part of Georgia, and the only way it could come undone from Georgia is if Russia invades and steals it away. South Ossetia is tiny, yet strategically significant to Georgia. It would be like, if the city of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, were to try to secede from the US, and take the entire Pacific Northwest with them.

By mistake. It is more Russian and the people want to be part of us and have the right to rejoin us. Ever since they were put in Georgia, they have been trying to get back with us.

Oh right I am sorry. Its not like Georgia killed Russian peace keepers or Russians in S. Ossetia. They didnt invade S. Ossetia when they did not provoke them. Ok, well you must be right.

Thats why we sink a war ship from Geogria? Wow...a sack of weak hand grenades huh?

Its not like Russia invaded another country with the excuse of helping some citizens, and its not like they are continueing to bomb Georgia even after Georgia pulled out, like Russia asked them too, and after georgia having declared a ceasefire.

Also, the Georgian ship was sunk by your planes, not by your ships. While you navy may do well enough for now, if it ever came up against the UK or the USA, you wouldn't stand a chance.