NationStates Jolt Archive

DO NOT presume to tell me the depth of a parent's love. I don't know what your story is, but, for myself, and everyone I know, there is no purer or more unending love than the love you feel for your child. It is the one emotion that makes the welfare of another a priority to our own. So please, do not presume to know what is in peoples' hearts.

I'm sorry to distress you further.. but unfortunately conditional love does exist and is in fact very common. A significant number of parents only take a second child so the first one will not feel lonely - implying they love the first one more. Some get them as a status symbol or because their church demands it. Many have children as insurance for old age (these people often prefer boys). Some even want their child primarily to have it serve as donor of e.g. bonemarrow. All of this doesn't mean they don't love these children - but it does make their love conditional.

DO NOT presume to tell me the depth of a parent's love. I don't know what your story is, but, for myself, and everyone I know, there is no purer or more unending love than the love you feel for your child. It is the one emotion that makes the welfare of another a priority to our own. So please, do not presume to know what is in peoples' hearts.

Zooke, I love you, but Schiavo needs to die and her parents need to let her go. I am a parent and would draw the same conclusion. The woman's brainstem is liquid. Let that sink in for a minute: her brainstem is *liquid*. Whether you call it a "persistent vegitative state" or whatever fancy term you put on it, her condition is irreversable. There is no getting around that.

Her parent's hope that she will snap out of it and become their normal, loving daughter again are not out of love, but out of delusion. They've reacted to Terry making the sound "Awa" and have declared it to mean her saying "I want to live". Pure delusion and, in this parent of three's mind, selfishness.

Her parents need to let her go and so does the rest of the world. Enough is enough.

Zooke, I love you, but Schiavo needs to die and her parents need to let her go. I am a parent and would draw the same conclusion. The woman's brainstem is liquid. Let that sink in for a minute: her brainstem is *liquid*. Whether you call it a "persistent vegitative state" or whatever fancy term you put on it, her condition is irreversable. There is no getting around that.

Her parent's hope that she will snap out of it and become their normal, loving daughter again are not out of love, but out of delusion. They've reacted to Terry making the sound "Awa" and have declared it to mean her saying "I want to live". Pure delusion and, in this parent of three's mind, selfishness.

Her parents need to let her go and so does the rest of the world. Enough is enough.

Umm, no my friend, you are seriously wrong. I love you man, but you've been brainwashed by the media. Her brain isn't liquid - that's just a media buzzword. Her brain is just as healthy as her husband's - probably more. Granted, a lot of the connections to the outside world have broken, but she can move, talk, enjoy food, look at things. She does better than most people in medically induced comas.

How does he stand to gain from her death?


why does it matter?

Umm, no my friend, you are seriously wrong. I love you man, but you've been brainwashed by the media. Her brain isn't liquid - that's just a media buzzword. Her brain is just as healthy as her husband's - probably more. Granted, a lot of the connections to the outside world have broken, but she can move, talk, enjoy food, look at things. She does better than most people in medically induced comas.

Talk about brainwashed. :rolleyes:

Read this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8520404&postcount=404) -- and if you don't believe it read the links.

Among other things, it contains the following information.

The severity of Theresa’s medical condition was explained by the Second
District as follows:

The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.

Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.

In affirming the trial court’s order, the Second District concluded by stating:

In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we
conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.

Brain is replaced by spinal fluid = brain is liquid. No get better. No there there.

It is truly tragic. But it is truly true.

Umm, no my friend, you are seriously wrong. I love you man, but you've been brainwashed by the media.

Possible of course. But how can you be certain that you are not the one that has been brainwashed ?

Brain is replaced by spinal fluid = brain is liquid. No get better. No there there.


Thank you, Cat. Beat me to it.

Her brain is just as healthy as her husband's

This statement, however, may actually be true. ;)

Zooke, I love you, but Schiavo needs to die and her parents need to let her go. I am a parent and would draw the same conclusion. The woman's brainstem is liquid. Let that sink in for a minute: her brainstem is *liquid*. Whether you call it a "persistent vegitative state" or whatever fancy term you put on it, her condition is irreversable. There is no getting around that.

Her parent's hope that she will snap out of it and become their normal, loving daughter again are not out of love, but out of delusion. They've reacted to Terry making the sound "Awa" and have declared it to mean her saying "I want to live". Pure delusion and, in this parent of three's mind, selfishness.

Her parents need to let her go and so does the rest of the world. Enough is enough.

While Terry Shiavo would never feel anything of any sort, it is not her brain stem that is dead, it's her cerebral cortex. The brain stem controls functions allowing a body to live, which is why she is alive. However, the cerebral cortex determines personality, sensory feelings, emotions; basically, everything that makes one human. She will never get better, and she can't feel pain.

ok, the story described by somebody-or-other about the car crash recovery from 20 years of coma is a completely different case than the schiavo case.

why?

the brain damage came about in a completely different way.

physical brain damage from outside forces (hitting the windsheild at 55mph) does not kill the brain cells themselves, but rather, the connection between them.

the damage that terri is suffering is physical damage from inside forces. (not getting oxygen for extended periods of time)


i would like you to imagine, if you will, a whole neighborhood of people who never leave their houses. all the communicating that goes on is done by telephone.

one day, a storm rips through town, and destroys the telephone lines. some houses may have fallen, and their inhabitants killed, but the vast majority of the damage was to the weaker telephone lines.

the 'cells' of the brain are still functioning fine, but they cannot communicate with eachother.

some time later, the telephone lines are repaired, and the people can talk again. this could take anywhere from three months to twenty years to accomplish, but it is possible to fix.



now we are going to take this same imaginary neighborhood and apply it to terri's case.

one day, there is a drought.

the plants begin to wither, and the animals begin to starve.

the townspeople who depended on their little rooftop gardens for food are beginning to go hungry.

one by one, they all die.

a week later, it starts raining again!

the plants come back.

but it's too late, all the people are dead.


when terri's heart stopped, it was the drought. her brain cells began to wither and die.

when the doctors finally got her heart started again (the rains coming back) it was already too late. the cells were dead. there is no growing those cells back.

she will not get better.

here kitty, kitty...


as you will see in my above statement, i said that it wasnt quite like to schiavo case. it is merely a story of hope.
More like nothing like the Schiavo case, because unlike Schiavo, that girl's brain hadn't been liquified.
I wouldn't have said that if I were you.

You are 100% wrong!
Yes, like the girl I went to school with who lovingly threw her baby across the room. Or the stories of parents chaining their children to beds or on toilets or in closets and leaving them there for days. Or all the other stories of various abuses, physical, emotional and sexual, that parents inflict on their children. Yep, unconditional love at its finest. :rolleyes:

More like nothing like the Schiavo case, because unlike Schiavo, that girl's brain hadn't been liquified.

Yes, like the girl I went to school with who lovingly threw her baby across the room. Or the stories of parents chaining their children to beds or on toilets or in closets and leaving them there for days. Or all the other stories of various abuses, physical, emotional and sexual, that parents inflict on their children. Yep, unconditional love at its finest. :rolleyes:

You are mistaking genetic donor with a parent. I did not give birth to any of my children, but I am their mother. Any rat can have a litter in a dank alley, but it takes more than that to be a parent. Some of those rats will kill and devour their young, but a vast majority of them will nurture, care and sacrifice their own lives for their litter.

For those who believe that Mr Schiavo is doing this for love of his wife, please note:

Easter is the most holy of days and Eucharist is the most holy of sacraments.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1003.asp

Mr Schiavo has denied his wife Communion on Easter Sunday.

I just saw an interview with Terri Schiavo's cousin, and Mr Schiavo is not allowing her family to visit, it what may well be her last hours of life. He is not with her...she is alone in her dying.

Mr Schiavo's attorney made a statement that Mrs Schiavo is at peace and beautiful. With knowledge of the actual physical effects of dehydration, her family's statement is probably closer to the truth. Her mucous membranes and eyes are dried, cracked, and bleeding. The nursing home has acknowledged that she is receiving morphine for pain. Brain dead? Pain? :confused:

Through his actions it is becoming more clear that he is not carrying through with this "mercy" killing due to compassion, but as a vindictive, sadistic act.

I ask that all Christians, especially Catholics, who receive Holy Communion today, say a prayer for Terri.

Easter is the most holy of days and Eucharist is the most holy of sacraments.


Some would argue that since Terry Schiavo's condition is self-induced, it is therefore suicide, and thus not eligable for the holy sacraments.

However, that aside, how is she supposed to take communion when she can't swallow?

Some would argue that since Terry Schiavo's condition is self-induced, it is therefore suicide, and thus not eligable for the holy sacraments.

Some would argue that it was not self induced, since her husband obviously had a hand in the incident which caused her potassium imbalance.

Some would argue that it was not self induced, since her husband obviously had a hand in the incident which caused her potassium imbalance.

Possibly, but that doesn't help her with the swallowing thing.

Some would argue that since Terry Schiavo's condition is self-induced, it is therefore suicide, and thus not eligable for the holy sacraments.

If, and that's a key word, IF her condition is the result of an eating disorder, her intention, another key word, INTENTION, was not suicide. If someone is speeding and is killed in an accident caused by this reckless behavior, the speeder's INTENTION was not suicide and this person is entitled to the sacrament. Terri has received Communion in the past and is not viewed by the Church as a suicide. Also, as the Holy Father has stated, nutrition is not considered a medical procedure.

"The administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural way of preserving life... not a medical procedure."

Terri has received Communion in the past and is not viewed by the Church as a suicide. Also, as the Holy Father has stated, nutrition is not considered a medical procedure.

Okie dokie. Now ... how's she supposed to swallow the blood and body of Christ?

Possibly, but that doesn't help her with the swallowing thing.

Brother Paul, in a news video, asked that Mr Schiavo allow Terri to have a single drop of wine and a tiny crumb of the host placed on her tongue by the priest in attendance at the nursing home. Swallowing, which she has done all along in swallowing her saliva, is not an issue in receiving Communion.

You got a source for that? or is it just hearsay?so far its made up...

otherwise the video clip would already be on the net...and BBC,CNN, CBS, etc they would already be talking about it...

you have to be conscious and have intent in order to receive the sacrament.


she can no more participate in the sacrament of communion than she could participate in the scrament of confirmation.

she has (presumably) received extreme unction. she is incapable of sin at this point. she has in effect been dead for 15 years. there is no sense in pretending that she can participate in any sacrament that requires volition.

no matter what happens to her, she it will not be HER sin. she will be in the arms of jesus soon as she should have been 15 years ago.

you have to be conscious and have intent in order to receive the sacrament.


she can no more participate in the sacrament of communion than she could participate in the scrament of confirmation.

she has (presumably) received extreme unction. she is incapable of sin at this point. she has in effect been dead for 15 years. there is no sense in pretending that she can participate in any sacrament that requires volition.

no matter what happens to her, she it will not be HER sin. she will be in the arms of jesus soon as she should have been 15 years ago.

And that is the source of disagreement. Her awareness. I tend to believe that it is best to err on the side of keeping to her faith.

First thing, who are we to interfer with the wishes of another person none of us know. Second, what makes this case any more important than all the other cases of people being removed from life support? Why is she getting all the attention when there are probably hundres, if not thousands, of other people going through the same thing. The media is one. They take a story and try to make us all fell gushy about things that do not concern us. They only tell us what they want us to know. Do any of you people know the family? Do you know how hard it is to see a loved one die? Do you at all know what it is like to see a person never get better and know that they never will. Do you know what it is like to see a person suffer quietly cause they can't tell you how they feel. This person has no brain function to speak of. Pain killers are a precaution to make sure the person is in no pain. Let it go. We have no right to interfer or pass judgement until you have had to make the same choice. So cut the chatter and move on to something else...

And that is the source of disagreement. Her awareness. I tend to believe that it is best to err on the side of keeping to her faith.

Agreed Zooke.

The devil himself is preparing a special place in hell for Mr. Shiavo and for this judge.

And yes, she can swallow according to nurses.

And that is the source of disagreement. Her awareness. I tend to believe that it is best to err on the side of keeping to her faith.

Rather than on the side of her wishes, which she made clear to her husband and friends, that she not be kept alive in such a state?

Which is more important in this matter, Terry's wishes or the Church's decree?

The devil himself is preparing a special place in hell for Mr. Shiavo and for this judge.


You have no way of knowing that.

And what do you mean "this judge"? The parents have received 30 judgements against them from various judges. They all goin' to Hell?

You have no way of knowing that.

And what do you mean "this judge"? The parents have received 30 judgements against them from various judges. They all goin' to Hell?

I do know it.

As for the judge, ok fine, The devil is preparing a special place in hell, not only for Mr. Shiavo but for all the judges in this case, including the 11 Circuit Court.

More like nothing like the Schiavo case, because unlike Schiavo, that girl's brain hadn't been liquified.

Yes, like the girl I went to school with who lovingly threw her baby across the room. Or the stories of parents chaining their children to beds or on toilets or in closets and leaving them there for days. Or all the other stories of various abuses, physical, emotional and sexual, that parents inflict on their children. Yep, unconditional love at its finest. :rolleyes:
The reason those stand out in your mind is that they are the exceptions rather than the rule. If you believe in evolution, we evolved to love and care for our children. Those who don't wind up being gradually removed from the gene pool. :)

I do know it.

As for the judge, ok fine, The devil is preparing a special place in hell, not only for Mr. Shiavo but for all the judges in this case, including the 11 Circuit Court.
millions of people have made this decision in their own families. i guess that special place isnt going to be all that exclusive.

Hmmm, well I'm sure that insulin shock for Mrs. Shiavo may be a bit more pleasant than starving to death for a couple weeks...

First thing, who are we to interfer with the wishes of another person none of us know. Second, what makes this case any more important than all the other cases of people being removed from life support? Why is she getting all the attention when there are probably hundres, if not thousands, of other people going through the same thing. The media is one. They take a story and try to make us all fell gushy about things that do not concern us. They only tell us what they want us to know. Do any of you people know the family? Do you know how hard it is to see a loved one die? Do you at all know what it is like to see a person never get better and know that they never will. Do you know what it is like to see a person suffer quietly cause they can't tell you how they feel. This person has no brain function to speak of. Pain killers are a precaution to make sure the person is in no pain. Let it go. We have no right to interfer or pass judgement until you have had to make the same choice. So cut the chatter and move on to something else...

my wife, zooke, did go through something like this. She and her family are catholic. She lost her daughter to total brain destruction from a undiagnosed brain aneurysm. She had to help make the decision to remove her daughter from life support. She has been going through the parent's pain in this every step of the way. This is important to people for several reasons. The husband says she wants to die. Her family says she doesn't and that it is against her religion. Who to believe? When there is doubt what the woman's wishes were then why is the assumption made in favor of death especialy since the husband's allies say that she feels no pain and is not aware? Why cause this much pain and grief to family who love her? This is getting so much attention because it was a decision made by the husband without consideration for her other loved ones. Most people do not do such a cruel thing. From what my wife's priest and deacon tell us the manner of her death will not stain her soul with suicide but will stain her husband's soul with murder.

Do you know how hard it is to see a loved one die? Do you at all know what it is like to see a person never get better and know that they never will. Do you know what it is like to see a person suffer quietly cause they can't tell you how they feel. * We have no right to interfer or pass judgement until you have had to make the same choice.

My wife knows too much about this and it haunts her every single day of her life. Now put away your judgements of others.

my wife, zooke, did go through something like this. She and her family are catholic. She lost her daughter to total brain destruction from a undiagnosed brain aneurysm. She had to help make the decision to remove her daughter from life support. She has been going through the parent's pain in this every step of the way. This is important to people for several reasons. The husband says she wants to die. Her family says she doesn't and that it is against her religion. Who to believe? When there is doubt what the woman's wishes were then why is the assumption made in favor of death especialy since the husband's allies say that she feels no pain and is not aware? Why cause this much pain and grief to family who love her? This is getting so much attention because it was a decision made by the husband without consideration for her other loved ones. Most people do not do such a cruel thing. From what my wife's priest and deacon tell us the manner of her death will not stain her soul with suicide but will stain her husband's soul with murder.

Do you know how hard it is to see a loved one die? Do you at all know what it is like to see a person never get better and know that they never will. Do you know what it is like to see a person suffer quietly cause they can't tell you how they feel. * We have no right to interfer or pass judgement until you have had to make the same choice.

My wife knows too much about this and it haunts her every single day of her life. Now put away your judgements of others.
Thank you, Ricky. Well said. Give our Zooke a hug for me, willya? :)

Thank you, Ricky. Well said. Give our Zooke a hug for me, willya? :)

Every day every chance I get. She's too special and too wonderful not to.

Every day every chance I get. She's too special and too wonderful not to.
I agree. You're a lucky man. :)

I agree. You're a lucky man. :)

:D

Trust that there was due process out there. Trust that all the judges who rendered decisions did so after considering ALL THE FACTS presented in the case by both sides.

When you all have seen all the evidence presented, then you can diss the judges for the decision they made, which, by the way, was to UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW!

ALL PRAISE OUR GREAT CONSTITUTION! IT STANDS STRONG AGAINST RELIGIOUS TYRRANY!

Some would argue that it was not self induced, since her husband obviously had a hand in the incident which caused her potassium imbalance.

As for the judge, ok fine, The devil is preparing a special place in hell, not only for Mr. Shiavo but for all the judges in this case, including the 11 Circuit Court.

Both of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

TWA's statement is simply libel. You have not a shred of proof. Your contributions to this forum are usually more thought out.

It is well documented that Mr. Schiavo has taken extraordinary measures to seek medical care for his wife. Up until recently when they got desperate, the Schindlers' court filings granted that Mr. Schiavo had taken excellecent care of her. Mr. Schiavo sided on the chance of hope for 8 years, many years after doctors tired to convince him otherwise. That he finally acquiesced to the the truth of the situation and his wifes wishes is not villany. He deserves at least sympathy, not hate.

That you disagree with Mr. Schiavo's view of what his wife would want -- despite having never met her or knowing f**k-all about her -- is your opinion. It does not excuse people's continued villification of the man.

The nature of some people's attacks on Mr. Schiavo appear contrary to everything good that most would want us to believe about Christianity.

And, sure, dozens of judges -- from the Florida trial court, to the Florida appellate court, Florida Supreme Court, U.S District Court, U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, and the U.S. Supreme Court -- have all evil conspired to murder Mrs. Schiavo. Why? Oh for the sheer fun of it.

Such accusations are absurd and only show your lack of judgment about this entire matter.

Honestly, do you people have no sense of decency?

*snip*
Do you know how hard it is to see a loved one die? Do you at all know what it is like to see a person never get better and know that they never will. Do you know what it is like to see a person suffer quietly cause they can't tell you how they feel. * We have no right to interfer or pass judgement until you have had to make the same choice.

My wife knows too much about this and it haunts her every single day of her life. Now put away your judgements of others.

Well said. Thank you. I hope some people actually listen to you.

And yes, she can swallow according to nurses.

Complete and utter nonsense. There is more documentation to support the existence of the Tooth Fairy than this continued canard.

Bottom line: Her brain is gone, replace with spinal fluid. Where her brain would be is liquid. She is not getting better. Ever. She is not there. There is no one to recieve communion.

Face the facts and stop acting out of knee-jerk prejudices. Its appalling.

Again, at long last, have you lost all sense of decency whatsoever?

Its amazing how one case brings out soo much comments about a really important issue- Honeslty i am against euthanasia, because killing people is really not up to humans, it's up to God to decide when he will take our lives. As as for the comments that she is not really there; not matter what happens she is still a human being, and deserved the same respect that everyone else has, if you can help her and keep her alive then do so even if there is not a single shred of hope-because there always hope! I dont know, i think the goverment just said to kill her, because she is using the goverments money to keep her alive-also if her husband doenst want to take care of he and i think he is just sick if taking care of a wife that is not healthy-which is very undertandable after so many years you have to move on- just let the family take care of her if they want to keep her alive.
I cant say that i know the family or know what it's like to deal with someone with severe damage, but i know it's not our choice to decide when it's time for someone to go-it's escpecialy not the goverments buisness to decide such a personal issue

I do know it.

As for the judge, ok fine, The devil is preparing a special place in hell, not only for Mr. Shiavo but for all the judges in this case, including the 11 Circuit Court.


Why would anyone who has done what is morally right go to hell?

Terry schiavo's brain is dead, she is gone forever and her vegitative body will never be anything but a vegitative body, no matter how long nutrition is pumped into her stomach.

For all intensive purposes, terry schiavo's soul left her body fifteen years ago.
If you care to believe such things, it is already in heaven or hell.

The decisions of the judges were correct both in terms of mrs schiavo's state and in terms of the laws regarding the matter. No "judicial activism" took place, the decisions established no precedent or substantive new rights, merely upheld very old and very often upheld laws.

Mrs schiavo's parents increasingly appear to be crazy, and are certainly at minimum out of touch with reality. They dress their dead daughter's body up and use it like a doll, they call her 41 year old body "their little baby" and they make bizzare claims like "she said she wanted to live."

Trust that there was due process out there. Trust that all the judges who rendered decisions did so after considering ALL THE FACTS presented in the case by both sides.

When you all have seen all the evidence presented, then you can diss the judges for the decision they made, which, by the way, was to UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW!

ALL PRAISE OUR GREAT CONSTITUTION! IT STANDS STRONG AGAINST RELIGIOUS TYRRANY!


^^^^

i'm quoting that, because it needs repeating

I do know it.

As for the judge, ok fine, The devil is preparing a special place in hell, not only for Mr. Shiavo but for all the judges in this case, including the 11 Circuit Court.

You'll have to rack up the whole panel of the supreme court too, since they refused to even hear the case. Face it, she's already dead, and in fact has been so for more than 10 years. The law is not on your side, let this end peacfully, and there's a very slim chance that your people won't squander all of the "political capitol" you think you've gained.

... let this end peacfully, and there's a very slim chance that your people won't squander all of the "political capitol" you think you've gained.
Oh come on now! You seem to be implying that all republicans are trying to keep Terri Schiavo alive. Such is definitely not the case, and you know it!

Its amazing how one case brings out soo much comments about a really important issue- Honeslty i am against euthanasia, because killing people is really not up to humans, it's up to God to decide when he will take our lives. As as for the comments that she is not really there; not matter what happens she is still a human being, and deserved the same respect that everyone else has, if you can help her and keep her alive then do so even if there is not a single shred of hope-because there always hope! I dont know, i think the goverment just said to kill her, because she is using the goverments money to keep her alive-also if her husband doenst want to take care of he and i think he is just sick if taking care of a wife that is not healthy-which is very undertandable after so many years you have to move on- just let the family take care of her if they want to keep her alive.
I cant say that i know the family or know what it's like to deal with someone with severe damage, but i know it's not our choice to decide when it's time for someone to go-it's escpecialy not the goverments buisness to decide such a personal issue

Isn't the point of medicine and medical science to counter God's will? To keep people alive longer than they should be naturally?

Isn't the point of medicine and medical science to counter God's will? To keep people alive longer than they should be naturally?
Umm ... it's not God's "will" that medical people have the skills to keep people alive???

Umm ... it's not God's "will" that medical people have the skills to keep people alive???
Skills to keep people alive didn't seem to develop for hundreds and more of years and occasionally they drop from the face of the earth to be rediscovered centuries later. Sounds like God isn't big on science defying his will considering the skills were there and then forgotten and then took hundreds of more years to develop again

Skills to keep people alive didn't seem to develop for hundreds and more of years and occasionally they drop from the face of the earth to be rediscovered centuries later. Sounds like God isn't big on science defying his will considering the skills were there and then forgotten and then took hundreds of more years to develop again

Explain this. If I am correct, you are asserting that at one time in our past, t modern medical methods were present, and then were lost...?
There is no archaelogical or historical evidence to support that...

Explain this. If I am correct, you are asserting that at one time in our past, t modern medical methods were present, and then were lost...?
There is no archaelogical or historical evidence to support that...
There were basic forms of medical practices: trepanning and such. Anything that could be performed with basic instruments was. And we are also taking back up the practice of leech usage. However, I am referring to technologies in general and not solely medical methods

Skills to keep people alive didn't seem to develop for hundreds and more of years and occasionally they drop from the face of the earth to be rediscovered centuries later. Sounds like God isn't big on science defying his will considering the skills were there and then forgotten and then took hundreds of more years to develop again
You know something? That makes no sense whatsoever. :(

You know something? That makes no sense whatsoever. :(
I know, I had a point when I was going to write it, but it left to get some pizza so I improvised

I know, I had a point when I was going to write it, but it left to get some pizza so I improvised
LOL! I've had that same thing happen from time to time. :)

And that is the source of disagreement. Her awareness. I tend to believe that it is best to err on the side of keeping to her faith.


If that's the case, Zooke, then she doesn't require Communion because she's already been given Last Rites, IIRC. It was my understanding that once that was done, you could not accept other Sacraments. It's like being allowed to marry when the Church has acknowledged you are dead.

I am Catholic, I am very happy this Easter, and I have to admit I don't see why you all are worrying about this. She really can't receive communion on a physical level and it's arguable in terms of custom. Let her just rest in peace now.

As for the business with parents that you are so obsessed with Zooke:

What loving parents would parade their disabled daughter all over the national news?

What loving parents would be so selfish as to allow her to live in this condition?

What loving parents would be so disrespectful of her choice of spouse as to do what they have done?

What loving parents would drag their daughter's issue in front of an entire nation and violate the very government she and they had come to respect because they don't like the outcome of that system, which has been proven several times as fair?

What loving parents would lie about the condition of their daughter to garner sympathy for themselves?

This is about the Schindlers, not their daughter. I see them as some of the most selfish, self-involved people I have ever seen, and I can't belieev the nation is falling for this melodrama. We seek life without mercy.

Are we all so afraid of death now as to avoid it at all costs...?

Ge-Ren

Its amazing how one case brings out soo much comments about a really important issue- Honeslty i am against euthanasia, because killing people is really not up to humans, it's up to God to decide when he will take our lives. As as for the comments that she is not really there; not matter what happens she is still a human being, and deserved the same respect that everyone else has, if you can help her and keep her alive then do so even if there is not a single shred of hope-because there always hope!

The two bolded statements contradict eachother. Keeping someone alive is also taking the decision out of Gods hands.

Edit: drat.. the cowhater has beaten me to it.

The reason those stand out in your mind is that they are the exceptions rather than the rule. If you believe in evolution, we evolved to love and care for our children. Those who don't wind up being gradually removed from the gene pool. :)
Still doesn't make the statement that not all parents love their children unconditionally 100% incorrect now does it?
Explain this. If I am correct, you are asserting that at one time in our past, t modern medical methods were present, and then were lost...?
There is no archaelogical or historical evidence to support that...
Sure there is, ancient Egypt among other cultures had quite advanced medical knowledge and surgical tools among other things that were lost with the fall of their civilizations, things that we still can't explain even today such as the ley lines that are marked by Stonehedge and other similar structures (these structures mark where said ley lines cross, Stonehedge being a major intersection of such lines), or how the sarcophogus in the King's or Queen's Chamber (forget which) in Khufu's Pyramid induces out of body experiences.

And just what were the Dark Ages of Europe? A time after the fall of Rome where civilization actually regressed and lost much of the knowledge it once possessed, knowledge that only began to be rediscovered during the Renaissance.

So yeah, you're wrong there as well.

ge ren-


what loving husband would deny his wife rehabilitation?

what loving husband would melt his wedding ring down to make a piece of jewelry for himself?

what loving husband would move on with his life without divorcing his first wife?

what loving husband would refuse all medical treatment that was offered to his wife

what loving husband would leave his wifes care to her family and then step in only when its time for him to decide on whethter she should live or die?

I do know it.

As for the judge, ok fine, The devil is preparing a special place in hell, not only for Mr. Shiavo but for all the judges in this case, including the 11 Circuit Court.

You don't determine who goes to hell and who doesn't. Never presume such a thing. That's heresy in both your religion and mine.

You don't determine who goes to hell and who doesn't. Never presume such a thing. That's heresy in both your religion and mine.
Maybe so, but sometimes it's easy to see who's going to their own special rooms in Hell. Osama binLaden, Mohammed Atta, Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Pol Pot...all will have their own special place in Hell.

Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer...same.

PS. What side of PCFL are you at?

ge ren-


what loving husband would deny his wife rehabilitation?

what loving husband would melt his wedding ring down to make a piece of jewelry for himself?

what loving husband would move on with his life without divorcing his first wife?

what loving husband would refuse all medical treatment that was offered to his wife

what loving husband would leave his wifes care to her family and then step in only when its time for him to decide on whethter she should live or die?

the kind of husband i would hope my husband would be

the kind of man who wouldnt fully move on until he had done his last duty to me as his wife. that he would release me from a life i told him i did not want to live.

the kind of husband i would hope my husband would be

the kind of man who wouldnt fully move on until he had done his last duty to me as his wife. that he would release me from a life i told him i did not want to live.
But in the case of Michael Schiavo, he does this ONLY when it is convenient to him, which is when Terri became inconvenient to him since he had already cashed in.

And how convenient was it, that he "remembered" a "conversation they had", in which she had "expressed" some desires no one in her immediate family ever recalls hearing her express...and this was only AFTER he cashed in?

i have heard of women who want the be cheated on disrepected, disregarded and abandoned, but i never thought i would hear someone admit it!

but good luck to you

And how convenient was it, that he "remembered" a "conversation they had", in which she had "expressed" some desires no one in her immediate family ever recalls hearing her express...and this was only AFTER he cashed in?
I suppose you tell your parents every thought you ever have?

i have heard of women who want the be cheated on disrepected, disregarded and abandoned, but i never thought i would hear someone admit it!

but good luck to you
Not to mention, I haven't seen too many women who want their husbands to get them killed as soon as they become inconvenient.

youre right pan! thanks for adding that in :)

I suppose you tell your parents every thought you ever have?
No, but by the same token, they (and my wife) know exactly how I want to be handled if I ever were in Terri Schindler's situation. And my will expresses this as well.

youre right pan! thanks for adding that in :)
Don't mention it. It's only common human decency to err on the side of life.

No, but by the same token, they (and my wife) know exactly how I want to be handled if I ever were in Terri Schindler's situation. And my will expresses this as well.
Irrelevant. You just admitted you don't tell your parents everything. That kills your previous argument that the parents would also know if the husband did

you guys make as much sense as those who would be jealous of a woman their husband might marry after they are fully dead

if im GONE, why would i not want my husband to find happiness?

he waited about 8 years presumably to be certain that she wasnt going to get better. after all she was very young when this happened and the young are more resiliant than the old. 8 years and opinions from her doctors that she wasnt going to get better meant it was time to let her go

if it were for convenience he would have done it before all the money was eaten up (you cant get on medicare if there is money left to care for you) and he would have done it before he had children with another women.

in this world of modern medicine that can keep you half alive for many years, we may all face this decision about someone we love. it is the fullest measure of love to be willing to make the decision (whether that decision is to let them die or to fight to keep them hooked up to those machines) that your family member would want you to make. it is your duty.

Don't mention it. It's only common human decency to err on the side of life.


Precisely why no country with the death penalty can call itself decent.

some of you arent taking the legal facts into consideration. he is legally still married to her no matter what state of mind she is in. of course he has a right to move on...but terri has a right to divorce him if he makes that decision. plus, in florida, it is a crime to cohabitate with another woman while you are still married.

the honorable thing for michael to do was to divorce terri so he could begin his new life. and by not divorcing her, he has comitted a crime.

Irrelevant. You just admitted you don't tell your parents everything. That kills your previous argument that the parents would also know if the husband did
Did you bother reading it all? My parents, as well as my wife, have known for a very long time how I want to be handled in such a situation. Have I told them everything about my life? No. I bet you haven't told yours either.

The point is, only one person claims to have heard Terri say she wouldn't want to live in such a condition...the same person who has the most to gain from her death...and who has demanded that her body be cremated immediately upon her death...sure, his own siblings say they witnessed her saying so, but do they have signed affidavits? I don't think so...

Precisely why no country with the death penalty can call itself decent.
Those who are sentenced to the death penalty have done plenty to earn such an end to their so-called lives. What was Terri Schindler's crime, other than marrying a monster?

well from what i've heard even though they've removed he feeding tube, she cannot feel anything according to accounts of other people that have pulled through after this situation, it doesn't matter if they inject insulin or not, she will still die painlessly

Did you bother reading it all? My parents, as well as my wife, have known for a very long time how I want to be handled in such a situation. Have I told them everything about my life? No. I bet you haven't told yours either.

The point is, only one person claims to have heard Terri say she wouldn't want to live in such a condition...the same person who has the most to gain from her death...and who has demanded that her body be cremated immediately upon her death...sure, his own siblings say they witnessed her saying so, but do they have signed affidavits? I don't think so...

<sigh>

I started to rebut the many errors in your understanding of Ms. Schavio's situtation, but you don't care, do you?

You'd rather rant and feel morally outraged than learn thing one about the situation.

Pity is overtaking my feeling of disgust.

Gosh, you people certainly are judgemental. The fact is, none of us has all the "facts', and to judge people without knowing everything is a crime unto itself. Unless any of us has walked a mile in his or her shoes, your opinions are just plain silly. The only fact is that it's between a husband and wife, not you, her parents, or certainly not a bunch of pandering politicians. Now, go hug your kids, spouses, significant others or anyone you love and enjoy them while you can !!! :fluffle:

ge ren-


what loving husband would deny his wife rehabilitation?

what loving husband would melt his wedding ring down to make a piece of jewelry for himself?

what loving husband would move on with his life without divorcing his first wife?

what loving husband would refuse all medical treatment that was offered to his wife

what loving husband would leave his wifes care to her family and then step in only when its time for him to decide on whethter she should live or die?

Let's see.

Lie.

Lie. Lie. Lie. Lie.

Way to show moral fiber.

sorry, but those are all true.

Source Please.

Maybe so, but sometimes it's easy to see who's going to their own special rooms in Hell. Osama binLaden, Mohammed Atta, Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Pol Pot...all will have their own special place in Hell.

Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer...same.

PS. What side of PCFL are you at?

Wow.

I didn't realize that Mr. Schiavo and Judge Greer had committed genocide, slaughter thousans of innocents, or committed international war crimes.

You've really opened my eyes now ...

If only some other courts had reviewed the case ...

oh ya, and to add some fuel to your fire cat,

michaels brother said in an interview that terri was discussing divorcing michael before she collapsed. straight from the horses mouth.

cat- i posted some of the allegations on an earlier thread. you will have to dig those up yourself.

Those who are sentenced to the death penalty have done plenty to earn such an end to their so-called lives.

and you know that with 100% certainty? of course you don't, because it's objectively wrong. better to err on the side of life then, yes?

and, of course, while everyone has been in an uproar about the horrific injustice of following the wishes of a woman who is already all but dead, over 100,000 children who would otherwise have lived full lives have starved to death.

No, but by the same token, they (and my wife) know exactly how I want to be handled if I ever were in Terri Schindler's situation. And my will expresses this as well.

Unlike those who presume to be on a first name basis with Ms. Schiavo, you've presumed to change her name.

Not even her parents have been so presumptuous.

well from what i've heard even though they've removed he feeding tube, she cannot feel anything according to accounts of other people that have pulled through after this situation, it doesn't matter if they inject insulin or not, she will still die painlessly
Shall we try the same on you, then you can tell us how "painless" it can be?

cat- i posted some of the allegations on an earlier thread. you will have to dig those up yourself.

It must really be true if its too hard for you to document.

I posted actual documentary prove to the contrary here in this thread and you've simply chosen to ignore it.

Willful ignorance doesn't excuse lies and libel.

cat- i posted some of the allegations on an earlier thread. you will have to dig those up yourself.
So if I claim you're a moron, it must be true, right?
Shall we try the same on you, then you can tell us how "painless" it can be?
Yes, because he's obviously in the same condition as Terri Schiavo :rolleyes:

oh ya, and to add some fuel to your fire cat,

michaels brother said in an interview that terri was discussing divorcing michael before she collapsed. straight from the horses mouth.

And I can say that Jesus was just on CNN saying he wanted Ms. Schiavo to die in peace, but that doesn't make it so.

Lies are still lies. Post them over and over if it makes you happy, but they don't reflect well on you.

Wow.

I didn't realize that Mr. Schiavo and Judge Greer had committed genocide, slaughter thousans of innocents, or committed international war crimes.

You've really opened my eyes now ...

If only some other courts had reviewed the case ...
So, just like Old Joe Stalin, you see it as "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"? Sad, you know. Every life is precious (and spare me the anti-death-penalty tripe,) and those who can not defend themselves (such as Terri Schindler and the millions of aborted babies since 1973,) should be defended, not simply treated as human waste.

But what would you know about this, anyway?

oh ya, and to add some fuel to your fire cat,

michaels brother said in an interview that terri was discussing divorcing michael before she collapsed. straight from the horses mouth.
She had even mentioned to her mother that she was about to leave Michael, ONE DAY prior to her "stroke." How convenient for Michael that she "suffered a stroke," right?

But what would you know about this, anyway?
Obviously more than you because he's actually listening to facts and reason instead of ignoring them...

first of all cat- i SAW the interview. it was on fox. he plainly admitted it.

second, i have compiled some info for you.


Myths versus Facts
.
Terri's situation can be confusing. Because of misreporting and inaccuracies, it is easy to lose sight of the real issues surrounding her case.
We've compiled what we believe to be important items that are not always clear to the general public, but that deserve understanding.

Most Common Questions and Answers

If Terri hasn't recovered after all these years of therapy, why not let go?

Terri hasn't had meaningful therapy since 1991, but many credible physicians say she can benefit from it.

Why can't Terri just divorce?

Terri's husband/guardian speaks for her. She cannot divorce without his permission

Does Terri have an advanced directive or any wishes about her healthcare?

Terri never signed any directive or living will and there is no evidence that she foresaw her present situation.

Why do Terri's family fight to keep her alive? Shouldn't they let her husband decide?

Terri's husband has started another family and probably has gone on with his life. Terri's family want to provide her therapy and a safe home.

Is Terri receiving life support?

Not in the traditional sense. Terri only receives food and fluids via a simple tube.

Isn't removing her tube a natural and dignified way to die?

No. Dehydration and starvation cause horrific effects and are anything but peaceful. Read more here.



Most common misconceptions about Terri's situation

MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state)
FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.

MYTH: Terri does not need rehabilitation
FACT: Florida Statute 744.3215 Rights of persons determined incapacitated:

(1) A person who has been determined to be incapacitated retains the right
(i) To receive necessary services and rehabilitation.

This is a retained right that a guardian cannot take away. Additionally, it does not make exception for PVS patients. Terri has illegally been denied rehabilitation - as many nurses have sworn in affidavits.

MYTH: Removal of food was both legal and court-ordered.
FACT: The courts had only allowed removal of Terri's feeding tube, not regular food and water. Terri's husband illegally ordered this. The law only allows the removal of "life-prolonging procedures," not regular food and water:

Florida Statute 765.309 Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized; suicide distinguished. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to permit the natural process of dying.

MYTH: Many doctors have said that there is no hope for her.
FACT: Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terri’s recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terri’s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terri’s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo’s team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute of Terri’s ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence, Terri’s husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her for over 10 years.

Dr. Melvin Greer, appointed by Schiavo, testified that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment. He spent approximately 45 minutes with Terri. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by Judge Greer, spent approximately 30 minutes with Terri. Dr. Ronald Cranford, also appointed by Schiavo and who has publicly labeled himself “Dr. Death”, spent less than 45 minutes examining and interacting with Terri.

MYTH: This is just a family battle over money.
FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri’s medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection. Court records, however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri’s medical fund on Schiavo’s attorney’s fees - though it was expressly awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a “houseplant” and has used Terri’s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

MYTH: Michael Schiavo volunteered to donate the balance of the inheritance to charity.
FACT: In October, 1998, Schiavo’s attorney proposed that, if Terri’s parents would agree to her death by starvation, Schiavo would donate his inheritance to charity. The proposal came after a court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem cited Schiavo’s conflict of interest since he stood to inherit the balance of Terri’s medical fund upon her death. This one and only offer stated “if the proposal is not fully accepted within 10 days, it shall automatically be withdrawn”. Naturally, Terri’s parents immediately rejected the offer.

MYTH: Terri's Medical Trust fund has been used to care for her.
FACT: The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:
Summary of expenses paid from Terri’s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)
NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley
Atty Deborah Bushnell
Atty Steve Nilson
Atty Pacarek
Atty Richard Pearse (GAL)
Atty George Felos
$10,668.05
$65,607.00
$7,404.95
$1,500.00
$4,511.95
$397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank
$55,459.85

Michael Schiavo
$10,929.95

Total $545,852.34

Listen to some of the testimony of Terry's nurses and friends, people who spent time with her.

Her friends stated that Terry always had bruises, and was planning to leave her husband. (motive: failed marriage)

Nurses stated that the husband was waiting for Terry to die. And refused rehabilition care for Terry. (motive: money)

And initial reaction from paramedics on the original scene was that it was an attempted hoimcide? Now I know paramedics can't diagnose, but they see so much crap that when something's fishy, they know.

Just some things to think about. The issue is not so cut and dry.

and you know that with 100% certainty? of course you don't, because it's objectively wrong. better to err on the side of life then, yes?

and, of course, while everyone has been in an uproar about the horrific injustice of following the wishes of a woman who is already all but dead, over 100,000 children who would otherwise have lived full lives have starved to death.
So I guess, for one, Tim McVeigh didn't really earn the right to get injected, did he? How about Scott Peterson? How about OJ Simpson (guilty as sin, but go figure,) did he not earn it? No, in your "objective" spot, killing a defenseless woman is not only not wrong, but to be applauded, right

And how do you know that it was her wish to be starved to death? You don't, because the only one who says such was her wish is the only person in the world who has something to gain from her death, and a lot to lose if she were to recover, or from the autopsy discoveries when she dies.

The moral equivalent is that of the fox telling us that the farmer, in his dying moments, told her (and just her) that he wanted her to guard the henhouse.

So, just like Old Joe Stalin, you see it as "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"? Sad, you know. Every life is precious (and spare me the anti-death-penalty tripe,) and those who can not defend themselves (such as Terri Schindler and the millions of aborted babies since 1973,) should be defended, not simply treated as human waste.

But what would you know about this, anyway?

I know at least a few things you appear not to grasp:

1. Ms. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

2. Ms. Schiavo would wish to die under these circumstances.

3. Ms. Schiavo is not being allowed to die merely because her husband wishes it or because he is her guardain. She is being allowed to die because that would be her wishes.

4. Ms. Schiavo's parents have gotten an extraordinary amount of judicial review of facts #1 & #2. Federal and state courts have reviewed this case multiple times over 7 years. All have agreed that points #1  were established by clear and convincing evidence.

The severity of Theresa’s medical condition was explained by the Second
District as follows:

The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.

Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.

In affirming the trial court’s order, the Second District concluded by stating:

In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we
conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.

Brain is replaced by spinal fluid = brain is liquid.
No get better.
No there there.

Ample documentation of these facts was posted here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8520404&postcount=404).

Judge Greer is a highly respected judge, an expert in guardianships, that happened to be randomly assigned to this case. His decisions have been reviewed multiple times by the Florida District Court, the Florida Supreme Court, a US District Court, the US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, and the US Supreme Court. All have agreed with his rulings.

It is well documented that Mr. Schiavo has taken extraordinary measures to seek medical care for his wife. Up until recently when they got desperate, the Schindlers' court filings granted that Mr. Schiavo had taken excellecent care of her. Mr. Schiavo sided on the chance of hope for 8 years, many years after doctors tired to convince him otherwise. And the Schindlers have admitted all of these things in their court filings. That he finally acquiesced to the the truth of the situation and his wifes wishes is not villany. He deserves at least sympathy, not hate.

I also know that libel is wrong.

So I guess, for one, Tim McVeigh didn't really earn the right to get injected, did he? How about Scott Peterson? How about OJ Simpson (guilty as sin, but go figure,) did he not earn it? No, in your "objective" spot, killing a defenseless woman is not only not wrong, but to be applauded, right
So I guess all those people who were sentenced to death for crimes they didn't commit really deserved to die, didn't they?
And how do you know that it was her wish to be starved to death? You don't, because the only one who says such was her wish is the only person in the world who has something to gain from her death, and a lot to lose if she were to recover, or from the autopsy discoveries when she dies.
Because multiple courts have all determined that was in fact her wish and that the parents are refusing it is so because they would keep their daughter alive regardless of her own wishes.

I've had a wonderful day with my family...the best curative God ever created...and I had hoped that this discussion would have wound down by now. Instead it has turned into a pissing contest. Enough!! The Schindlers have asked that all the protesters go home and that people leave them alone. I imagine that they have been told that Terri has reached the point of no return. She probably has suffered irreparable kidney, heart, and other major organ damage by now. Not to mention that her brain, whether functioning or not, is most likely severely dehydrated and damaged far worse than it was. Take comfort that the hospice is administering morphine, she should slip into a coma soon, if she hasn't already, and the ordeal will finally soon be over for her.

Take what you have seen and learned and take steps to make sure nothing like this ever happens to you or anyone you love. Push your state and federal representatives to create laws to make sure that no one ever dies like she will again. With all the medical miracles we have available, to die a death like this is barbaric and inhumane. Work to stop this insanity. Because when it is all said and done, it isn't about her parents or her unfaithful husband, or her siblings, or anyone else...it's about Terri and the way she has been fought over like a piece of meat and then forced to die in a way that animals aren't made to suffer. Set your priorities and then do something!

We all have different opinions for different reasons. This is not something to fight like this about. This is a day of resurrection and hope. Honor her with that intention. Please, stop the personal attacks.

So I guess, for one, Tim McVeigh didn't really earn the right to get injected, did he? How about Scott Peterson? How about OJ Simpson (guilty as sin, but go figure,) did he not earn it? No, in your "objective" spot, killing a defenseless woman is not only not wrong, but to be applauded, right

And how do you know that it was her wish to be starved to death? You don't, because the only one who says such was her wish is the only person in the world who has something to gain from her death, and a lot to lose if she were to recover, or from the autopsy discoveries when she dies.

The moral equivalent is that of the fox telling us that the farmer, in his dying moments, told her (and just her) that he wanted her to guard the henhouse.


Amazing that in the fifteen years since terry schiavo's bulimia gave her a heart attack, no charge has been brought against her husband.

Many people seem very sure, or at least claim to be very sure that he is responsible for his wife's condition.

Maybe he did this to her because he is a nazi, afterall, terry schiavo's parents name is "schindler."

Maybe the florida police are nazis too and thats why they refuse to stop his illegal activities and prosecute and investigate his crimes.

All 30+ judges who have so far heard the case, including the US Supreme Court must also be nazis to have ignored so much evidence in making their decisions.

Perhaps michael schiavo, since he has displayed such astonishing evil and hatred of human life was also involved in 9/11, the largest mass murder in US history.

Since the authorities refuse to investigate his crimes, perhaps he also gives money to terrorists, particularly al qaeda.

He is probably also a serial killer

and a pederast.

When does the foamy mouthed slander of michael shiavo stop and when do the whackjob conspiracy theories end? Do you expect anyone to believe that so many courts and so many law enforcement agencies have, over 15 years and in such amazing public scrutiny somehow been able to ignore all of this evidence that the anti-schiavo crowd purport to have?

Do you honestly believe anyone takes terry schiavo's parents seriously? After they dress her body up and use it like a doll and create a media fiasco and make up absurd things like "shortly before they removed the feeding tube she said she wanted to live." The people call their vegetative 41 year old daughter their "little baby." They seem to be long overdue for psychological help.

The vastness of the conspiracy theory alleged by the anti schiavo squad is ludicrous to the point that it is genuinely absurd.

any one of you who dont believe what is being said, can go on terrisfight.org and read all the court documents of this case.

Obviously more than you because he's actually listening to facts and reason instead of ignoring them...
The facts:
No one, other than Michael Schiavo, can recall Terri ever saying she did not want to be kept alive.

Terri Schindler was a devout Catholic. Roman Catholics believe in the sanctity of life...euthanasia and abortion are strictly prohibited by the Catholic Church.

Only one person has a lot to gain from Terri's death...that is Michael Schiavo. The same person has a lot to lose if Terri were to recover, and a lot more to lose were an autopsy on Terri's body to reveal evidence of abuse...and Michael Schiavo has demanded that her body be cremated immediately.

Michael Schiavo is an adulterer. True, it can be considered irrelevant, but what "loving husband" carries on an adulterous affair in plain view, while professing to love a woman he is trying to have killed?

The nursing staff at the hospice Terri was treated early on, have testified to discovering numerous needle marks in her body and insulin vials in the room after Michael's visits. Michael went to school to become a nurse AFTER Terri's "stroke" and would have learned how to administer injections, and would know what an insulin overdose would do to a person.

These same nurses have testified that Michael would continously ask "when is that b---h going to die," and "is she dead yet?"

All the money from the insurance settlement, that was to be used for her long-term medical care and rehab? Gone, used by Michael to pay attorney's fees in his efforts to have her legally killed.

Need more facts?

first of all cat- i SAW the interview. it was on fox. he plainly admitted it.

Then it should be easy to find a transcript.

second, i have compiled some info for you.


*snip*


Do you have source for this garbage -- no let me guess, it is cut-and-pasted straight from a "save terri" website.

That some nuts have posted this crap on the internet does not make it true. Notice how what we are saying is on the internet ....

Anyone who believes the garbage on Fox "News" is an idiot. :headbang:

I think issue cannot be objectively settled.
I personally would not want to live in such a vegetative state.
However she might.
Her husband i obviously a P.ofS.and yes he proly has had something if not all to do with her being like this, but does that justify that she should have to live in such a state? I mean it has been 15 years people, sometimes you have to learn to let go....and its because that is so hard for anyone that issue is f***ed

oh ya, and by the way, the reason that this has been in court for 15 years is because some judges at some time, did have questions about michael schiavos ability to be guardian. if that werent the case, this would have ended a long time ago.

Somone please answer this, somone from the anti-schiavo squad.


If Mr. Schiavo is intent on gaining financially from this ordeal, why did he turn down 1,000,000 USD from a california businessman to relinquish his responsibilities to his wife?

so the actual brother, who was on fox news and spoke those words cant be believed? i guess maybe it was his brother look a like that gave the interview. reality isnt that far away, you guys will get there

any one of you who dont believe what is being said, can go on terrisfight.org and read all the court documents of this case.

Nicely selective list of documents there, huh?

And I bet you didn't actually read most of them, did you?

At Findlaw (http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo/index.html) -- a purely objective source -- you'll find some of the actual court opinions left out.

actually, cat, i did read most of them. did you?

I know at least a few things you appear not to grasp:

1. Ms. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

2. Ms. Schiavo would wish to die under these circumstances.How do you know this? Oh, right, because Michael Schiavo said he heard her say this. By the way, after trying for 7 years to get paid off by insurance for her situation, as soon as he was paid off, he suddenly remembered this and started to try to get her killed.

3. Ms. Schiavo is not being allowed to die merely because her husband wishes it or because he is her guardain. She is being allowed to die because that would be her wishes.Again, how do you know this? Read above.

It is well documented that Mr. Schiavo has taken extraordinary measures to seek medical care for his wife. Up until recently when they got desperate, the Schindlers' court filings granted that Mr. Schiavo had taken excellecent care of her. Mr. Schiavo sided on the chance of hope for 8 years, many years after doctors tired to convince him otherwise. And the Schindlers have admitted all of these things in their court filings. That he finally acquiesced to the the truth of the situation and his wifes wishes is not villany. He deserves at least sympathy, not hate.If by "excellent medical care" you mean no therapy, no rehab, and a continuous effort to have her killed, then yes, he has given her excellent medical care. The only reason she is still alive is her parents.

I also know that libel is wrong.At least he will survive all the exposure his perfidy is getting. Libel requires that you knowingly say something about someone that isn't true. For example, saying that she wanted to die in such a situation. Did she express such a desire? He says she did, her FAMILY says she wouldn't have expressed such desires.

This I know for sure, MURDER OF A DEFENSELESS VICTIM, even when a judge says you can go through with it, IS ALWAYS WRONG.

so the actual brother, who was on fox news and spoke those words cant be believed? i guess maybe it was his brother look a like that gave the interview. reality isnt that far away, you guys will get there


If mr schiavo's intentions are anything but dutiful then why did he turn down an offer one one million dollars to give up his rights as guardian?

She had even mentioned to her mother that she was about to leave Michael, ONE DAY prior to her "stroke." How convenient for Michael that she "suffered a stroke," right?

Curious that Mr. Schiavo (unlike you, I don't know him personally) and the Schindlers jointly cared for Mrs. Schiavo for many years after that without discord.

Curious that the Schindlers did not oppose Mr. Schiavo's being appointed Mrs. Schiavo's guardian in the first place.

Curious that the Schindlers did not raise these allegations in court. (They may have done so in there more recent, desperate pleadings -- I haven't read all of those -- but they didn't before.)

Maybe you are just wrong.

actually, cat, i did read most of them. did you?

Actually, I have.

And so did all those courts. Who also read the stuff your website left out.

Too bad we don't have institutions to hear both sides of a matter and sort out the most likely to be true ....

Take what you have seen and learned and take steps to make sure nothing like this ever happens to you or anyone you love. Push your state and federal representatives to create laws to make sure that no one ever dies like she will again.
Yes, I agree, we really should push our state and federal reps to legalize euthinasia so we don't have to continue just standing back and waiting for them to die. Doctors don't have to be forced to do so, but like Kavorkian (spelling?), there will be doctors out there willing to.

I can honestly say that I personally do not know a single person who would have wanted to be kept alive like that, especially for as long as humanly possible.
The facts:
No one, other than Michael Schiavo, can recall Terri ever saying she did not want to be kept alive.
False, the testimonies of those who overheard Terri Schiavo say such things at two separate funerals along with the testimony of her husband was enough to convince every single court who reviewed the case that those were her wishes.
Only one person has a lot to gain from Terri's death...that is Michael Schiavo. The same person has a lot to lose if Terri were to recover, and a lot more to lose were an autopsy on Terri's body to reveal evidence of abuse...and Michael Schiavo has demanded that her body be cremated immediately.
Yes, because I'm sure her parents have absolutely nothing to gain from movie and book deals, that all goes to her husband despite the parents being the media whores throughout this entire circus they, not her husband, created. The rest is pure speculation and conjecture and can be discounted.
Michael Schiavo is an adulterer. True, it can be considered irrelevant, but what "loving husband" carries on an adulterous affair in plain view, while professing to love a woman he is trying to have killed?
Like you said, irrelevant, and not quite adultery when your wife has been in a vegetative state for years and even the parents of his wife encouraged him to find another lover. What "loving husband" would abandon the women he loved to live indefinitely without any life or even hope of a life to speak of? I'd certainly hope my future wife would both move on with hers yet not leave me behind to waste away for the next few decades in some hospital bed.
The nursing staff at the hospice Terri was treated early on, have testified to discovering numerous needle marks in her body and insulin vials in the room after Michael's visits. Michael went to school to become a nurse AFTER Terri's "stroke" and would have learned how to administer injections, and would know what an insulin overdose would do to a person.
These same nurses have testified that Michael would continously ask "when is that b---h going to die," and "is she dead yet?"

Funny how such things were igonored by all the various courts that reviewed the case, perhaps there's a reason for that hmm? Oh I forgot, it's because they're all EVIL! :rolleyes:

Any more shit to spew?

How do you know this? Oh, right, because Michael Schiavo said he heard her say this. By the way, after trying for 7 years to get paid off by insurance for her situation, as soon as he was paid off, he suddenly remembered this and started to try to get her killed.




Why did michael schiavo turn down an offer recently of one million dollars to give up guardianship of his wife?

oh ya, and by the way, the reason that this has been in court for 15 years is because some judges at some time, did have questions about michael schiavos ability to be guardian. if that werent the case, this would have ended a long time ago.

Beautiful circular reasoning.

Have you tried reading the actual court decisions -- the opinions -- that reject every bit of crap you keep going on about?

Amazing that in the fifteen years since terry schiavo's bulimia gave her a heart attack, no charge has been brought against her husband.Amazing that the only person who was there when she "suffered a heart atack from bulimia" was the only person who has something to gain and something to hide.

Many people seem very sure, or at least claim to be very sure that he is responsible for his wife's condition.If he isn't responsible, why try so hard to have her die? Why not let her parents take care of her? Why not honor his marriage vows ("in sickness and in health...forsaking all others...")?

Maybe he did this to her because he is a nazi, afterall, terry schiavo's parents name is "schindler."No one has accused him of being a Nazi. Murderer? Yes. Adulterer? Yes.

Maybe the florida police are nazis too and thats why they refuse to stop his illegal activities and prosecute and investigate his crimes.Unfortunately, Michael has the courts on his side. The same courts that attempted to re-write laws on the fly back in 2000...

All 30+ judges who have so far heard the case, including the US Supreme Court must also be nazis to have ignored so much evidence in making their decisions.

Perhaps michael schiavo, since he has displayed such astonishing evil and hatred of human life was also involved in 9/11, the largest mass murder in US history.

Since the authorities refuse to investigate his crimes, perhaps he also gives money to terrorists, particularly al qaeda.

He is probably also a serial killer

and a pederast.Now you're being silly. But isn't that a tactic of the Left?

When does the foamy mouthed slander of michael shiavo stop and when do the whackjob conspiracy theories end? Do you expect anyone to believe that so many courts and so many law enforcement agencies have, over 15 years and in such amazing public scrutiny somehow been able to ignore all of this evidence that the anti-schiavo crowd purport to have?Again, Michael Schiavo has brought this scrutiny upon himself, by the shady way he has been dealing with his WIFE. Isn't it curious that the same folks who are willing to murder a baby up to the minute in which it's born, are also willing to end a life that has become inconvenient for those who have vowed to protect it ("in sickness and in health...")

Do you honestly believe anyone takes terry schiavo's parents seriously? After they dress her body up and use it like a doll and create a media fiasco and make up absurd things like "shortly before they removed the feeding tube she said she wanted to live." The people call their vegetative 41 year old daughter their "little baby." They seem to be long overdue for psychological help.Those of us who value LIFE take them seriously. They remind me of the old saying, "you shouldn't have to bury your children." Even if her case had been hopeless, they have the right...no, the obligation as parents, to protect their daughter from those who would mean her ill. And make no mistake about it, Michael Schiavo's actions towards Theresa Marie Schindler, both before and after her injury, speak volumes as to how ill his intentions are/were towards her.

The vastness of the conspiracy theory alleged by the anti schiavo squad is ludicrous to the point that it is genuinely absurd.It's not the Anti Schiavo squad...it's the Pro-LIFE mentality. And the only conspiracy here is against Terri Schindler's life, by those who have sought to end her life without delay.

If mr schiavo's intentions are anything but dutiful then why did he turn down an offer one one million dollars to give up his rights as guardian?
How much is he trying to hide? After all, he has demanded that her body be cremated without an autopsy.

How much is he trying to hide? After all, he has demanded that her body be cremated without an autopsy.


Maybe there is evidence hidden inside her body that he was responsible for shooting john F kennedy.

And also for planning 9/11 and that since he is the real head of al qaeda, he hides all the al qaeda plans in little chips that he puts in terry schiavo's feeding tube.

:rolleyes:

It doesnt seem as though he's trying to hide anything.

Afterall, no authorities have ever alleged he had anything to do with her heart attack. Remember, it was caused by her bulimia.

Unless of course he knifed her in the heart and the knife is still in there.

Or whatever you're dreaming up.

oh ya, and by the way, the reason that this has been in court for 15 years is because some judges at some time, did have questions about michael schiavos ability to be guardian. if that werent the case, this would have ended a long time ago.
Earth to knee-jerking reactionary moron, get your facts straight because you obviously know extremely little about this case which has been in court for 7, not 15 years.
Somone please answer this, somone from the anti-schiavo squad.


If Mr. Schiavo is intent on gaining financially from this ordeal, why did he turn down 1,000,000 USD from a california businessman to relinquish his responsibilities to his wife?
Not to mention the 10,000,000 he was offered even earlier to do the same.

How do you know this? Oh, right, because Michael Schiavo said he heard her say this. By the way, after trying for 7 years to get paid off by insurance for her situation, as soon as he was paid off, he suddenly remembered this and started to try to get her killed.

Again, how do you know this? Read above.
If by "excellent medical care" you mean no therapy, no rehab, and a continuous effort to have her killed, then yes, he has given her excellent medical care. The only reason she is still alive is her parents.

At least he will survive all the exposure his perfidy is getting. Libel requires that you knowingly say something about someone that isn't true. For example, saying that she wanted to die in such a situation. Did she express such a desire? He says she did, her FAMILY says she wouldn't have expressed such desires.

This I know for sure, MURDER OF A DEFENSELESS VICTIM, even when a judge says you can go through with it, IS ALWAYS WRONG.

I'd think it would be very happy in a world where only what you believe is true with no nasty little facts getting in way, but apparently it is very bitter and angry.

Mr. Schiavo is not the only one to have testified under oath as to Mrs. Schiavo's wishes. The Schinders have only been able to testify that Mrs. Schiavo did not express such a wish to them. Again, it has been determined -- by clear and convincing evidence -- that Mrs. Schiavo would wish not to be forcibly kept alive by more than one court -- courts that heard the views of both sides.

As for the rest of your smears, continue to refuse to read about the truth. It appears to make you happy .... er unhappy ... whatever.

Curious that Mr. Schiavo (unlike you, I don't know him personally) and the Schindlers jointly cared for Mrs. Schiavo for many years after that without discord.True...the Schindlers only sprang into action when Michael Schiavo started to try to get her killed. I gather you're not a parent.

Curious that the Schindlers did not oppose Mr. Schiavo's being appointed Mrs. Schiavo's guardian in the first place.Of course! At that point they thought he had HER best interests in mind. As soon as the insurance payoff came, Michael decided that she really would have wanted to die, anyway. Are those her best interests?

Curious that the Schindlers did not raise these allegations in court. (They may have done so in there more recent, desperate pleadings -- I haven't read all of those -- but they didn't before.)Have you read all the cases? I have...and

Maybe you are just wrong.Maybe...but the FACTS support my stance and not yours.

Maybe...but the FACTS support my stance and not yours.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *wipes tear* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Seems the FACTS support his stance, because that is the stance that every objective court the case has been brought to has agreed with.

boy, i tell ya...whenever someone disagrees with others on this board, all they can do is call them names. very mature.

boy, i tell ya...whenever someone disagrees with others on this board, all they can do is call them names. very mature.
Well, when you insist on ignoring facts and repeating delusions that were not taken seriously by any court who reviewed the case, you leave us with little other choice.

The issue here is custody. If the Schinlder's were the appointed guardians of Terri, they would tell Michael that since he is not the guardian, he cannot have the feeding tube removed. Since the Schinlder's are not Terri's legal guardians, they decided to use every means possible to undermine Michael's authority as Terri's guardian.

I doubt that Michael Schiavo actually tried to inject insulin into Terri, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't want to end her life sooner, rather than let her starve.

The thing that bothers me the most about this case (aside from the fact that there is way too much publicity) is that Bill Frist thinks he can diagnose someone's illness by watching a few video tapes of the patient. How can anyone possibly believe this, especially when it comes from the doctor who thinks that HIV can be spread through tears? I am also appalled that Bush came home from vacation just to sign a bill to give the Schindler's the ability to take their problem to the federal courts; he couldn't be bothered to come right back when the Tsunami's hit.

According to our Constitutional Law teacher, Terri Schiavo's case is parallel to Roe v. Wade; instead of asking when life truly begins, the issue is now when life truly ends.

Terri Schivo has been dead for 15 years. Yes, her organs are still functioning, but the Terri that her parents are protecting left a long time ago.

True...the Schindlers only sprang into action when Michael Schiavo started to try to get her killed. I gather you're not a parent

Of course! At that point they thought he had HER best interests in mind. As soon as the insurance payoff came, Michael decided that she really would have wanted to die, anyway. Are those her best interests?

So the Schindlers knew Mr. Schiavo had abused Mrs. Schiavo and tried to kill her, knew Mrs. Schiavo had wanted a divorce, etc., but agreed he should be her guardian?

So the Schindlers jointly cared for Mrs. Schiavo w/ Mr. Schiavo, but she was still denied treatment, rehabilitation, etc. for those eight years?

If you are going to make up an evil scenario, at least try to keep it internally consistent.

Have you read all the cases? I have...and

Maybe...but the FACTS support my stance and not yours.

If you've read the cases, then you do know your allegations are lies.

And you are commiting libel.

Or you just lied about reading the cases.

Or you just refuse to believe anything multiple judges of multiple political backgrounds have agreed on.

Clearly no point in discussing this with you further. (Which I should have realized long ago.)

your behavior is your own choice. no one makes you be nasty, you choose to

your behavior is your own choice. no one makes you be nasty, you choose to
Just like you choose to ignore any facts that go against your arguement and will cite anything, no matter how untrue, that supports it. Maybe if you didn't insist on going back to the same arguements that have been proven invalid over and over again, not just here on this site, but by multiple courts trained to decide such things objectively based on all (emphasis on all) the evidence provided, I'd actually treat you like you had some intelligence.

your behavior is your own choice. no one makes you be nasty, you choose to

Agreed.

Now where can we find those people nastily libeling Mr. Schiavo -- let's lecture them.

boy, i tell ya...whenever someone disagrees with others on this board, all they can do is call them names. very mature.

Join the club. I've learned some fun new words here on NS.

And someone actually called me a "Conservative" the other day. Can you image the horror?

I do know it.


Claiming to know the will or the mind of God is a far worse sin than murder. I hope you're aware that a special place in Hell is probably also being set up for you. Maybe you'll be next door to the judges and Mike Schiavo.

Ya'll can play bridge on thursdays.

Complete and utter nonsense. There is more documentation to support the existence of the Tooth Fairy than this continued canard.

Pardon me but it isn't nonsense. Her nurses have stated that she can swallow food and liquid. One of her nurses as late as 1997 fed her and I quote "Water, apple juice, orange juice, and a little bit of jello" And that was through her M-O-U-T-H!

Pardon me but it isn't nonsense. Her nurses have stated that she can swallow food and liquid. One of her nurses as late as 1997 fed her and I quote "Water, apple juice, orange juice, and a little bit of jello" And that was through her M-O-U-T-H!


Why have so many courts and law enforcement agencies and doctors and officials ignored this.

Perhaps because it isnt true.

Ya'll can play bridge on thursdays.

Ya'll? Ya'll?? I didn't know you are a southerner. ;)

psst...it's y'all

You don't determine who goes to hell and who doesn't. Never presume such a thing. That's heresy in both your religion and mine.

Did I say that I determine who goes too hell? Nope. God decides that and the Devil knows that they are coming.

I think I heard a little man say "You've got mail!"

Did I say that I determine who goes too hell? Nope. God decides that and the Devil knows that they are coming.


In english: Did I say that I determine who goes too(sic) hell? Nope,(sic) I determine that terry schiavo and the judges are going to hell.


:rolleyes:

Ya'll? Ya'll?? I didn't know you are a southerner. ;)

psst...it's y'all

Texan. In Texas, it's ya'll. ;)

Did I say that I determine who goes too hell? Nope. God decides that and the Devil knows that they are coming.

You said you "know" they're going to Hell.

:eek: You're the Devil! I knew it! :D

Texan. In Texas, it's ya'll. ;)

Here in Arkansas it's y'all...at least for those of us who can read and write and such. Both sound the same though.

Here in Arkansas it's y'all...at least for those of us who can read and write and such. Both sound the same though.


As a lover of the english language I must say "ugh."


All the same, it is better I suppose than if either of you said "y'ins."

As a lover of the english language I must say "ugh."


All the same, it is better I suppose than if either of you said "y'ins."


You mean "you'uns" or something like that? I've heard people use that term. LOL...a southerner can make English sound like a whole new language.

As a lover of the english language I must say "ugh."


Actually it is fairly acceptable English...we just prefer not to use all of our vowels.

Actually it is fairly acceptable English...we just prefer not to use all of our vowels.


"you all" may have currency some places, but it isnt the english idiom ;)

Claiming to know the will or the mind of God is a far worse sin than murder. I hope you're aware that a special place in Hell is probably also being set up for you. Maybe you'll be next door to the judges and Mike Schiavo.

Ya'll can play bridge on thursdays.

Doubtful since I am a 100% born again Christian who just joined the Methodist Church. I belive in life and do all I can to preserve it. I honer my parents and I don't steal, committ Adultry (I don't even have a gf anymore! BTW: She's Catholic), or have other gods before Him. I lead an honest, law-abiding life and Obey God's word. Now how am I going to hell?

As for bridge? I don't play it.

How does he stand to gain from her death?
Simple, he doesn't have to spend money on her care. Let's starve him to death, see how he likes it.

Why have so many courts and law enforcement agencies and doctors and officials ignored this.

Perhaps because it isnt true.

Or that they realized that he is a lying sack of shit which anyone who knows anything knows that he is.

"you all" may have currency some places, but it isnt the english idiom ;)

Sure it is...southern fried. We do everything slow, including speech.

I think I heard a little man say "You've got mail!"

Actually I do have 4 in my AOL Email account and I did hear that when I came back! LOL!

I'll get to yahoo in a minute.

Simple, he doesn't have to spend money on her care. Let's starve him to death, see how he likes it.

You must know, being, like the rest of the anti-schiavo squad in posession of secret information...

Why did michael schiavo turn down one million dollars to relinquish guardianship of his wife?

That would have removed any chance of him ever having to pay a dime for her care, plus he would have a million dollars in cash.

Please do answer~!

As a lover of the english language I must say "ugh."


All the same, it is better I suppose than if either of you said "y'ins."

Don't get me started on yens! I'm from the Pittsburgh area please don't mention that word around me! LOL :D

Or that they realized that he is a lying sack of shit which anyone who knows anything knows that he is.


So... what you want people to believe is that... the police, judges, governor of florida, hospital &c &c thinks that mr schiavo is a "lying sack of shit" and because of this, they dont pay attention to the mound of evidence you claim proves that he is a crook and that terry schiavo isnt really in a persistant vegitative state?

What kind of sense does that make Corneliu?

I'll get to yahoo in a minute.

tick...tick...tick...

You must know, being, like the rest of the anti-schiavo squad in posession of secret information...

Why did michael schiavo turn down one million dollars to relinquish guardianship of his wife?

That would have removed any chance of him ever having to pay a dime for her care, plus he would have a million dollars in cash.

Please do answer~!


they still haven't.

apparently, they don't seem to get us liberals when we would rather not let a loved one get tortured than have bundles of cash.

apparently, love that overcomes money is foriegn to them, because his financial gain is the only thing that they can seem to talk about.

Sure it is...southern fried. We do everything slow, including speech.

Indeed, like I said it is habitually used in places.

However, in the interests of the education of the 'chilluns' and the upright defense of English *salute* , the correct phrasing is "all of you."

:)

tick...tick...tick...

I replied to one of them! :)

So... what you want people to believe is that... the police, judges, governor of florida, hospital &c &c thinks that mr schiavo is a "lying sack of shit" and because of this, they dont pay attention to the mound of evidence you claim proves that he is a crook and that terry schiavo isnt really in a persistant vegitative state?

What kind of sense does that make Corneliu?

What about her saliva? Where is it going?

I give up trying to lighten you guys up. Y'all are just bound to agree to disagree. Before I go, google this name...

Cindy Shook

I give up trying to lighten you guys up. Y'all are just bound to agree to disagree. Before I go, google this name...

Cindy Shook

No one seems to listen to any arguements and they all want to hurl insults at eachother for not listening.

I guess I need to re'din up my dorm abit! :D

What about her saliva? Where is it going?

Why should I feel compelled to answer a question of yours when you have so callously refused to address any of mine Corneliu?

Why should I feel compelled to answer a question of yours when you have so callously refused to address any of mine Corneliu?

The Saliva has to go somewhere!

Where is her saliva going? Down her throat. She's swallowing her own saliva. What does that tell you?

Indeed, like I said it is habitually used in places.

However, in the interests of the education of the 'chilluns' and the upright defense of English *salute* , the correct phrasing is "all of you."

:)

chilluns? Do you mean "younguns" by any chance? Shaw...I have a whole passle of those little critters. Fetch em over here for a meal twonce while.

Here in Arkansas it's y'all...at least for those of us who can read and write and such. Both sound the same though.

Type 'em both in to dictionary.com and the same thing comes up. :)

We move the apostrophy to separate us from other Southerners.

Texans think of themselves like this:

http://www.unlc.biz/images/texmap01.gif

:D

Okie ... guess we should get back on topic now.

Zooke, I did reply. You should have a "you got mail" thing! :D

Doubtful since I am a 100% born again Christian who just joined the Methodist Church. I belive in life and do all I can to preserve it. I honer my parents and I don't steal, committ Adultry (I don't even have a gf anymore! BTW: She's Catholic), or have other gods before Him. I lead an honest, law-abiding life and Obey God's word. Now how am I going to hell?


You're claiming to know the will of God and you're also predicting the future. You are predicting that Mike Schiavo and a bunch of judges are going to Hell, even though they're not dead and you don't know what they will do in their lives or hearts in the future.

You, therefore, must be using some form of Divination or Witchcraft to make this determination, which is strictly against many of the rules laid out in your Bible.

You have condemned people who still have a chance to repent and will continue to have an equal chance to repent until the second they draw their last breath. Your judgement of them will cause God's judgement of you to be all the more harsh.

Never forget that all your good deeds are as dirty rags before the Lord.

The Saliva has to go somewhere!

Where is her saliva going? Down her throat. What does that tell you?


it tells me that saliva can dribble down her throat.

or possibly, she could be drooling.

are you in a position to tell?

i bet you ten bucks the parents tried to play up the 'alive' look by wiping the drool off her chin.

there is no muscle contraction involved.

I'm still waiting for a few answers.

Namely:

Why, if Mr. Schiavo has done Mrs. Sciavo any harm (particularly harm resulting in her PVS condition) has no investigation been launched nor action taken by the florida police, judges anywhere or the florida executive?

Why, if there is a mountain of evidence proving that Mrs. Schiavo is not in a PVS, do courts, the florida executive and law enforcement ignore it?

Why, if Mr Schiavo's motives are *anything but dutiful* did he turn down an offer of one million dollars to relinquish reponsibility for his wife?


Three simple question, somone in the Anti Schiavo Squad please answer them.

You're claiming to know the will of God and you're also predicting the future. You are predicting that Mike Schiavo and a bunch of judges are going to Hell, even though they're not dead and you don't know what they will do in their lives or hearts in the future.

You, therefore, must be using some form of Divination or Witchcraft to make this determination, which is strictly against many of the rules laid out in your Bible.

You have condemned people who still have a chance to repent and will continue to have an equal chance to repent until the second they draw their last breath. Your judgement of them will cause God's judgement of you to be all the more harsh.

Never forget that all your good deeds are as dirty rags before the Lord.


there's only one response to this:

he got owned.

ahhh, religious hypocrites are so entertaining

Three simple question, somone in the Anti Schiavo Squad please answer them.

not a chance.

it reminds me of that beatles song: nowhere man

"he's as blind as he can be
just sees what he wants to see
nowhere man, can you see me
at all?"

Pardon me but it isn't nonsense. Her nurses have stated that she can swallow food and liquid. One of her nurses as late as 1997 fed her and I quote "Water, apple juice, orange juice, and a little bit of jello" And that was through her M-O-U-T-H!

So, your documentation is that -- according to you, one of her nurses has said (double hearsay, anyone?) that eight years ago Ms. Schiavo was fed some liquids.

Of course, the whole litigation didn't start until 1998.

And there is the little matter of the whole dispute being over a forcible feeding tube. :rolleyes:

Color me unconvinced.

You're claiming to know the will of God and you're also predicting the future. You are predicting that Mike Schiavo and a bunch of judges are going to Hell, even though they're not dead and you don't know what they will do in their lives or hearts in the future.

They better do something to help their fellow man because this goes against the Catholic Church. I doubt she has been given her last rights by a preacher. I do know Catholic Traditions on this and they are not following it.

You, therefore, must be using some form of Divination or Witchcraft to make this determination, which is strictly against many of the rules laid out in your Bible.

Sorry. I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You have condemned people who still have a chance to repent and will continue to have an equal chance to repent until the second they draw their last breath. Your judgement of them will cause God's judgement of you to be all the more harsh.

I'll take it gladly. The mood I'm in right now, any excitement would be a blessing.

Never forget that all your good deeds are as dirty rags before the Lord.

No good deed goes unpunished.

it tells me that saliva can dribble down her throat.

or possibly, she could be drooling.

are you in a position to tell?

i bet you ten bucks the parents tried to play up the 'alive' look by wiping the drool off her chin.

there is no muscle contraction involved.

Her clothes aren't wet and I doubt that they are cleaning out her mouth since she is dying. If she was unable to swallow, she would've choked to death by now.

So where is her saliva going?

there's only one response to this:

he got owned.

ahhh, religious hypocrites are so entertaining

Well ... if you need some religious ownery, always consult a Muslim. ;)

Zooke, I did reply. You should have a "you got mail" thing! :D

Got them. But you really need to work on your drawl. You might just be too yankeefied. Anyway, y'all (Arkansas pronunciation) have fun. The couch is calling me. Nite!

Her clothes aren't wet and I doubt that they are cleaning out her mouth since she is dying. If she was unable to swallow, she would've choked to death by now.

So where is her saliva going?


Perhaps having had a tube shoved down its throat for fifteen years her body's valves just arent so tight as they ought to be?


Any chance on answers for my Three Simple Questions?

Got them. But you really need to work on your drawl. You might just be too yankeefied. Anyway, y'all (Arkansas pronunciation) have fun. The couch is calling me. Nite!

Night and that was pittsburghese! LOL

So where is her saliva going?


did you read the first line of my post?

down her throat.

that does not involve swallowing.

did you read the first line of my post?

down her throat.

that does not involve swallowing.

actually it does

You said you "know" they're going to Hell.

:eek: You're the Devil! I knew it! :D

This explains a lot. :D

(Don't tell Gaar! :D )

(Don't tell Gaar! :D )

I'm surprised he ain't in here! :D

I looked forward to hammering him. :D:D

Her clothes aren't wet and I doubt that they are cleaning out her mouth since she is dying. If she was unable to swallow, she would've choked to death by now.

So where is her saliva going?
given im not a nurse....

i dont think you have much saliva when you havent eaten or drunk for 15 years. what minimal saliva might build up is probably suctioned on a regular basis so she doesnt choke.

I don't really think she has any awareness left, but just in case I'd pump her full of morphine. I just can't see anyone wanting to live like that. If I were religious person I'd pray to God that my family wouldn't leave me that ay. My mother has made it clear to me that she would never want to exist that way. If her health continues to decline, I may be making that decision soon.

It would be so much kinder if they could just give her a morphine overdose. I sympathize greatly with her parents suffering.

I don't really think she has any awareness left, but just in case I'd pump her full of morphine. I just can't see anyone wanting to live like that. If I were religious person I'd pray to God that my family wouldn't leave me that ay. My mother has made it clear to me that she would never want to exist that way. If her health continues to decline, I may be making that decision soon.

It would be so much kinder if they could just give her a morphine overdose. I sympathize greatly with her parents suffering.

And that is why people should have a living will. It dictates what they want to happen to them in a situation like this. My parents have one these.

actually it does


Does this mean that you plan on answering my three simple questions?

And that is why people should have a living will. It dictates what they want to happen to them in a situation like this. My parents have one these.

My mother has appointed her youngest sister and I to make medical decisions for her when she's no longer able. Of course she discussed in detail the things she did and didn't want done.

Does this mean that you plan on answering my three simple questions?

In honesty? No I won't because this case is over. All I can say now is, watch for lawsuites to be filed for wrongful death and whatever else they can think of.

My mother has appointed her youngest sister and I to make medical decisions for her when she's no longer able. Of course she discussed in detail the things she did and didn't want done.

Ok good! At least there are two of you who know in detail. That is good to know.

I'm still waiting for a few answers.

Namely:

Why, if Mr. Schiavo has done Mrs. Sciavo any harm (particularly harm resulting in her PVS condition) has no investigation been launched nor action taken by the florida police, judges anywhere or the florida executive?

Why, if there is a mountain of evidence proving that Mrs. Schiavo is not in a PVS, do courts, the florida executive and law enforcement ignore it?

Why, if Mr Schiavo's motives are *anything but dutiful* did he turn down an offer of one million dollars to relinquish reponsibility for his wife?


Three simple question, somone in the Anti Schiavo Squad please answer them.

First of all, since every security guard and nurse who has said or done anything in favor of Terri has been fired, since her own family has been barred from visitiing her at various times, it's manifestly clear that a lot of people in powerful positions want her to die.

The real question is, why?

BECAUSE no amount of money can dissuade Michael Schiavo from committing murder, there are only three conclusions that can be reasonably surmised from these circumstances.

1. Michael Schiavo misguidedly believes that killing Terri Schiavo would be doing her a favor. He is so convinced of it that he will lie about what she said, and oppose the wishes of everyone in her BLOOD family. I'm not convinced.

2. Micahel Schiavo is happy in his new life and is afraid that Terri Schiavo will wake up and interere with his new marriage.

Rebuttal He has been offered such a large sum of money that any legal trouble could be worked out in a divorce proceeding.

3. The last option is that Michael Schiavo assaulted his wife at some point before or after she fell into this condition. No one WANTS to accuse him of this. However, it can reasonably be proved via circumstantial evidence: Notably, even more evidence than that which was used to convict Scott Peterson.

I. First Responders on the scene in 1990 felt that foul play was involved in Terri's ailment.

II. Michael Schiavo wants to cremate Terri's body immediately, so that no one can legally request an autopsy. (Why would he want to do this other than a fear of an autopsy uncovering something malicious on his part?) Entirely circumstantial, but it begs the question.

III. If Terri dies and Michael Schiavo is found to be complicit via autopsy, no amount of money can buy his way out of jail. That is the only motive left that makes any sense.


So, unfortunately, nothing can be conclusively proven against Mr. Schiavo. It truly is a perplexing situation - if it turns out she is in a PVS (which is doubtful), than how could such a convincing front be put forth by the family for the rest of us thousands of miles away?

But more horrific, if the reality is that Terri is as doing as well as her parent's say, HOW CAN SO MANY PEOPLE IN OUR GOVERNMENT CONSPIRE TO KILL ONE PERSON? If the judges are truly that willing to rubberstamp someone's death without even bothering to visit their bedside for 8 HOURS to find out if she responds, how did they even get unto the bench?

Whew. I just realized this is a really long post. Kudos to all of you who are still debating this, even on the side of Michael. I would appreciate it if you would keep an open mind and acknowledge the possibility that you might be getting bad infromation, but I understand if you refuse, too.

2159 Added a comma 'cause some hotshot complained about me using 'too'

In honesty? No I won't because this case is over. All I can say now is, watch for lawsuites to be filed for wrongful death and whatever else they can think of.


I know enough english to know that you used "won't" where you meant "can't."

I know enough english to know that you used "won't" where you meant "can't."

Actually, he mean't "won't" because he's tired of wasting breath responding to your rabid anti-Terri posts. I'll save him the trouble of explaining himself.

I know enough english to know that you used "won't" where you meant "can't."

No I ment the word won't because I won't answer them. Don't read into things that aren't there. :rolleyes:

But more horrific, if the reality is that Terri is as doing as well as her parent's say, HOW CAN SO MANY PEOPLE IN OUR GOVERNMENT CONSPIRE TO KILL ONE PERSON? If the judges are truly that willing to rubberstamp someone's death without even bothering to visit their bedside for 8 HOURS to find out if she responds, how did they even get unto the bench?

Whew. I just realized this is a really long post. Kudos to all of you who are still debating this, even on the side of Micahel. I would appreciate it if you would keep an open mind and acknowledge the possibility that you might be getting bad infromation, but I understand if you refuse too.


You discount the most logical possiblity. The one that doesnt involve murder plots of government coverups or anything like that.

You refuse to consider, even for a moment, that Mrs. Schiavo did not want to be kept alive in a coma or PVS. You refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Schiavo loved his wife and wants to carry out her wishes.

That no ammount of money will dissuade him from that.

People believe in all sorts of loony stuff, the human mind has a genius for reinterpreting evidence and seeing what it wants to see.

When you have emotionally unstable people like the schindlers in a situation like this, it should be expected that they convince themselves that terry schiavo is fine and that the world is against them... for some reason.


So, what *honestly* makes more sense, a far fetched murder plot for which there is no evidence except that magically, secretly locked inside terry schiavo's body?

A government conspiracy to kill her?

Or a husband who loved his wife honoring her wishes, against the wishes of her parents, in spite of great financial reward?

For Christ's sake, be reasonable on easter.

Actually, he mean't "won't" because he's tired of wasting breath responding to your rabid anti-Terri posts. I'll save him the trouble of explaining himself.

Thanks! Though we posted at the sametime, I appreciate the explanation.

Whew. I just realized this is a really long post. Kudos to all of you who are still debating this, even on the side of Micahel. I would appreciate it if you would keep an open mind and acknowledge the possibility that you might be getting bad infromation, but I understand if you refuse too.


i'm sure your use of the word 'too' was a misspelling, but it is rather appropriate

Well, since this case is over there's really not much to say anymore. There's just 2 things I wished would happen.

#1 It could have turned out different
#2 If she wanted to die there needed to be more evidence than someone's
word (you can't trust someone's word)

I guess that's it.

I don't believe there's some sort of plot. I just think her husband and parents have different ideas on what the best thing for her happens to be. I think they are are well meaning. I don't think her parents are being realistic, but I can empathize with their pain.

Well, since this case is over there's really not much to say anymore. There's just 2 things I wished would happen.

#1 It could have turned out different
#2 If she wanted to die there needed to be more evidence then someone's
word (you can't trust someone's word)

I guess that's it.


By "shinohara" do you by chance mean "shinohara tomoe" the japanese pop singer?

In honesty? No I won't because this case is over. All I can say now is, watch for lawsuites to be filed for wrongful death and whatever else they can think of.

And dismissed immediately. Possibly with sanctions for filing frivilous litigation.

The Schindlers have had an unprecedented amount of legal appeals.

People sentenced to death have legal restrictions on the amount of appeals they have to protest their innocence. They get only a handful of appeals. (I'm not comparing Mrs. Schiavo's situation to someone convicted of a death-eligible crime. I merely trying to emphasize the unusual amount of motions and appeals already filed and denied.)

The Schindlers have been to the US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit three or four times in the last 2-3 days. That is unheard of. It is really amazing. If the courts were not sympathetic to the Schindlers' motives, they would have been sanctioned.

(Again, aside from the argument about Mrs. Schiavo's situation, the litigation is unprecedented.)

You discount the most logical possiblity. The one that doesnt involve murder plots of government coverups or anything like that.

You refuse to consider, even for a moment, that Mrs. Schiavo did not want to be kept alive in a coma or PVS. You refuse to consider that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Schiavo loved his wife and wants to carry out her wishes.

That no ammount of money will dissuade him from that.

People believe in all sorts of loony stuff, the human mind has a genius for reinterpreting evidence and seeing what it wants to see.

When you have emotionally unstable people like the schindlers in a situation like this, it should be expected that they convince themselves that terry schiavo is fine and that the world is against them... for some reason.


So, what *honestly* makes more sense, a far fetched murder plot for which there is no evidence except that magically, secretly locked inside terry schiavo's body?

A government conspiracy to kill her?

Or a husband who loved his wife honoring her wishes, against the wishes of her parents, in spite of great financial reward?

For Christ's sake, be reasonable on easter.

I simply can't imagine someone like Michael Schiavo turning down 10 million dollar's to NOT kill someone. For Pete's sake, you can hire a hit man for $75,000 dollars, and here he would get 13 times that much for NOT killing someone?

Furthermore, if you are willing to go against the wishes of a girl's father in order to haver her killed, then you should have your head examined. Not be lauded for standing by your "principles."

I wish you people would look at your statements before hitting the submit button sometimes. That thinking makes me sick.

I simply can't imagine someone like Michael Schiavo turning down 10 million dollar's to NOT kill someone. For Pete's sake, you can hire a hit man for $75,000 dollars, and here he would get 13 times that much for NOT killing someone?

Furthermore, if you are willing to go against the wishes of a girl's father in order to haver her killed, then you should have your head examined. Not be lauded for standing by your "principles."

I wish you people would look at your statements before hitting the submit button sometimes. That thinking makes me sick.

People dont own their kids.

Mrs. Schiavo didnt marry her father, she married Michael Schiavo.

If Mrs Schiavo (like most people) didnt want to be kept as a vegetable, and if she told her husband this, then her father's opinion is irrelevent.

You again discount the most reasonable explanation, the one that doesnt involve vast conspiracy theories, that Mr Schiavo loved his wife and is doing the duty he swore when they were married.

Actually, he mean't "won't" because he's tired of wasting breath responding to your rabid anti-Terri posts. I'll save him the trouble of explaining himself.

Consider the possibility that -- as the dozens of courts have agreed beyond clear and convincing evidence -- it was Mrs. Schiavo's wish not to be forcibly kept alive. That her wishes are that she be allowed to die.

Then who has been "rabid[ly] anti-Terri."

Consider the possibility that -- as the dozens of courts have agreed beyond clear and convincing evidence -- it was Mrs. Schiavo's wish not to be forcibly kept alive. That her wishes are that she be allowed to die.

Then who has been "rabid[ly] anti-Terri."


The courts dont agree with certain pastors and politicians.

Therefore they are complicit in a broad conspiracy to murder terry schiavo.

And therefore their judgements have no bearing on the facts of the case.

:rolleyes:

I simply can't imagine someone like Michael Schiavo turning down 10 million dollar's to NOT kill someone. For Pete's sake, you can hire a hit man for $75,000 dollars, and here he would get 13 times that much for NOT killing someone?

Furthermore, if you are willing to go against the wishes of a girl's father in order to haver her killed, then you should have your head examined. Not be lauded for standing by your "principles."

I wish you people would look at your statements before hitting the submit button sometimes. That thinking makes me sick.

Mrs. Schiavo is not "a girl." Show some respect.

Why do you insist on disregarding Mrs. Schiavo's wishes? It is exactly those wishes that the courts have determined and are protecting. Try reading some of the cases.

And the Schindlers testified in open court that they wanted Mrs. Schiavo kept alive: (a) regardless of her wishes, (b) even if she were in agonizing pain, and (c) even under a number of gruesome hypothesis I won't describe. (They, to their credit, later backed off of (c)). Their wishes are partially understandable, but they are unrealistic, defy Mrs. Schiavo's own wishes, and border on cruelty. I emphathize with their plight, but they are not the last word -- legally or morally.

We wouldn't be having this conversation twenty or forty years ago.

She would have taken the course of nature that all must take.

Talk about cruel and unusual punishment... I can think of no other more cruel and unusual punishment than to be kept artificially alive by an artificial tube in one's gut that pumps liquid "nutrition" 24/7.

She can't talk, she certainly cannot communicate, her brain is absolutely damanged beyond the point of return (brain tissue does not repair itself), what point is there except for her to be a political football used by the extreme right?

Indeed, why should government decide who or when to die, or who or when to be born?

What is the point?

She is a burden to taxpayers (whom are paying for her round-the-clock care), healthcare providers, her family and others who are force fed a steady diet of that ongoing saga by news outlets.

Artificial... artificial, artificial. Her life is artificial, she is being kept alive artificially and by so doing is being punished, even tortured. She cannot tell anyone when she is in pain, and she, no doubt, must be in pain. She no doubt has rights, but when did she last vote, or pay taxes?

The fact that her image is portrayed upon television screens, newspaper, magazine and Internet pages is proof that her privacy is being invaded and she has no control over that.

Her own father & mother gave videotape of her to news outlets... in violation of her rights. They do not have the Power of Attorney for her. Only her husband does.

She should not be forced to linger any longer. Allow her to go in peace... as she should have over 10 years ago.

Consider the possibility that -- as the dozens of courts have agreed beyond clear and convincing evidence -- it was Mrs. Schiavo's wish not to be forcibly kept alive. That her wishes are that she be allowed to die.

Then who has been "rabid[ly] anti-Terri."

IF those were Terri's wishes, then yes, all the people fighting for her life would all be in a very tenous position. BUT the only person who has said she wanted to die is her husband, who arguably has a lot of conflicts of interest, which none of us can prove either way. Those who wish Terri to die are very loud and forceful about their opinion, which unfortunately seems to equate to fact for some people. But being loud doesn't make you right.

Well, I'm going to step out on a limb here. Assasinate me if you wish.

I don't give a ratshit what the dozen courts think. I applaud the judges in the minority who stood for their beliefs. But the majority are a stain on our nation's image. The courts have a long history of injustice towards people, always finding a way to legalize opression through technicalities.

Babies can be aborted because they haven't squirted out the uterus yet. Women can be dehydrated because they can't talk. My grandmother was killed by her son (my uncle) this way, out of spite. After a stroke. I sat there and watched her try to talk to him. And I was amazed at the reality my uncle created for himself - totally sanctioned by the government of the state of Pennsylvania, because he had demanded of my grandmother that she give him power of attorney.

Where does it end; where do sensible people stand up and declare to the government that they can no longer enable the wanton killing of people, and hide behind the court of public apathy?

I simply can't imagine someone like Michael Schiavo turning down 10 million dollar's to NOT kill someone. For Pete's sake, you can hire a hit man for $75,000 dollars, and here he would get 13 times that much for NOT killing someone?

Furthermore, if you are willing to go against the wishes of a girl's father in order to haver her killed, then you should have your head examined. Not be lauded for standing by your "principles."

I wish you people would look at your statements before hitting the submit button sometimes. That thinking makes me sick.

Perhaps Mr. Schiavo believes very strongly it's what she would want. Perhaps he believes that essential part that makes her Terry is already dead. I don't know what kind of relationship she had with her father or whether or not she and her father agreed about things like this. Why do he fathers wishes outweigh her husbands? Many people are closer to their spouse than to their parents.

Schiavo is a sad little man who only decidied that Terri would want to die after he knocked up some new piece of trash. Schiavo tried to kill his wife and no id finally, 15 years later, going to suceede. Can't wait for the liberals to gloat over the woman's death.

Schiavo tried to kill his wife and now is finally, 15 years later, going to suceede.


evidence from unbiased sources, please

Schiavo is a sad little man who only decidied that Terri would want to die after he knocked up some new piece of trash. Schiavo tried to kill his wife and no id finally, 15 years later, going to suceede. Can't wait for the liberals to gloat over the woman's death.
Yeah, we are going to make a fire and dance around it outside the hospice, want to come?

IF those were Terri's wishes, then yes, all the people fighting for her life would all be in a very tenous position. BUT the only person who has said she wanted to die is her husband, who arguably has a lot of conflicts of interest, which none of us can prove either way. Those who wish Terri to die are very loud and forceful about their opinion, which unfortunately seems to equate to fact for some people. But being loud doesn't make you right.


Why would somone tell anyone but their husband or wife what their wishes were concering something like that?

It is, afterall, the spouse who is consented in marriage to be the legal guardian and holder of power of attorney.

No new precedent is created by this case, no substantive rights are created, no ground is given either way over 'right to die' or 'right to life.'

Mrs Schiavo is terminally ill, her brain is dead but for the reflexive stem and her condition is untreatable and permanent. Pulling the plug on such patients is not immoral and is not new.

I for one would be honored greatly to know that my wife would fight as long and hard as Mr Schiavo has fought to execute my will. That is the sanctity of marriage, that is the honoring of oaths, that is honesty and integrity.

It is a disgrace to Mrs Schiavo that her parents have dressed her body up like a doll and made a spectacle out of her misfortune and a slur on her that the republicans have kicked her corpse around like a football for their political gain.

It is a slur on her that her misfortune is used to speak ill of good and upright judges and it is a slur on her that her husband is held by some in such contempt.

The schindlers have no dignity and have done everything they can to rob the dignity of both their daughter and the law.

Why would somone tell anyone but their husband or wife what their wishes were concering something like that?

My whole family knew what my Grandmother wanted. I know what my parents want and when I get out on my own, I will write a living will stating what I want and my parents will know too.

First of all, since every security guard and nurse who has said or done anything in favor of Terri has been fired, since her own family has been barred from visitiing her at various times, it's manifestly clear that a lot of people in powerful positions want her to die.

"[A] lot of people in powerful positions want her to die." Are they hiding behind the grassy knoll?

Given that Congress, Jeb Bush, and the Florida legislature all tried to unconstitutionally intervene in this case, who -- pray tell -- is behind this conspiracy?

Isn't it just a little more probable that the courts -- from the Florida trial court up to the US Supreme Court -- have just been right?

It truly is a perplexing situation - if it turns out she is in a PVS (which is doubtful), than how could such a convincing front be put forth by the family for the rest of us thousands of miles away?

Lets try this yet again:

The severity of Theresa’s medical condition was explained by the Second
District as follows:
The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.

Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.

In affirming the trial court’s order, the Second District concluded by stating:
In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we
conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.

Cerebal cortex gone replaced with spinal fluid.

Brain not there. Is filled with liquid.

But more horrific, if the reality is that Terri is as doing as well as her parent's say, HOW CAN SO MANY PEOPLE IN OUR GOVERNMENT CONSPIRE TO KILL ONE PERSON? If the judges are truly that willing to rubberstamp someone's death without even bothering to visit their bedside for 8 HOURS to find out if she responds, how did they even get unto the bench?

If you had read the cases, you would know better than to even say this. Mrs. Schiavo is not doing as well as her parent's say. The evidence -- the clear and convincing evidence -- is overwhelming.

My whole family knew what my Grandmother wanted. I know what my parents want and when I get out on my own, I will write a living will stating what I want and my parents will know too.


Did your grandmother ever tell her parents what she wanted?

Or was it not considered enough of an issue to make a family affair out of until she was very old?

I will start by admitting that I have not read the entire thread. Way too long for the time I have available.

Has anyone posted this yet? Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo) has what seems to be a well balanced article.

If what I've read is correct Terri is not actually supported by the taxpayers, an exception to the rule I'm sure. With all the media hype as well as the insurance money that has been shown to be used for her care, we (americans) are not footing the bill, at least not via gov't.

And given that I've not read the thread I can't say this arguement has not been used, but I didn't see it in the few pages I scanned through. Has it occured to anyone that maybe (for those of you who believe in souls) that in her not dying that her soul might still be bound to the plane (susbstitute what ever term works for you). I can see only 3 possible scenarios for Terri:

1) Her soul has departed and all that's left is a autonomic shell.

2) Her soul is still in the body and can't leave till the body dies or recovers (assuming you still believe it could)

3) her soul is out of the body but still tied to it so it can't proceed on to Heaven (again substitute your own preferance her, but she was at least Christian I believe so Heaven is where she believes herself to be going).

This third possibility would be in line with various reports of "out of body" experiances when people medically die on the table and are later revived.

Also, has it occured to any of the devotly religious who are sying it's against God to let Terri die, that this is the prime point for a miracle?

Did your grandmother ever tell her parents what she wanted?

I wouldn't know. My great-grandmother died when I was very very little.

Or was it not considered enough of an issue to make a family affair out of until she was very old?

In reality, I don't know. I can ask my mom however if she told her mother what she wanted done in a case like this but that will have to wait till morning.

I wouldn't know. My great-grandmother died when I was very very little.



In reality, I don't know. I can ask my mom however if she told her mother what she wanted done in a case like this but that will have to wait till morning.


I dont know how old you are, but do you think that perhaps it is possible, that while they were visiting a sick relative or in a hopspital or watching a show (or something like that) a person would lean over and mention to their spouse that they certainly wouldnt want to be kept as a vegetable like that.

It isnt the sort of thing that comes up in the normal course of any conversation.

It is the sort of banter that people have with their spouses or those with whom they are in a relationship.

Besides, how many people do you know (a poll came up with less than 18%) who expressly wish to be kept alive indefinitely in a vegetative state?


Honestly Corneliu, be reasonable about this.

...

It is a disgrace to Mrs Schiavo that her parents have dressed her body up like a doll and made a spectacle out of her misfortune and a slur on her that the republicans have kicked her corpse around like a football for their political gain.

It is a slur on her that her misfortune is used to speak ill of good and upright judges and it is a slur on her that her husband is held by some in such contempt.

The schindlers have no dignity and have done everything they can to rob the dignity of both their daughter and the law.

It is very said, but not surprising, to see these points come up again:

"Her parents dressed her up like a doll."

Terri can not dress herself. Would you rather they videotaped her nude? I guess since it's ok to kill someone you don't like, it must be ok to pretend they don't need to be dressed. Ding.

"It is a slur on her"
Not just Republicans but Democrats should be fighting for Terri's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Courts do not have the right to kill someone without cause. Terri never even committed a misdemeanor, let alone a capital felony.
Her husband is, quite frankly, a shady individual. Ding.

"The Schindlers have no dignity."

You, my friend, have no dignity, for you are attacking a family who is suffering, whose daughter is BEING KILLED SLOWLY by her estranged husband. You have disqualified yourself from saying someone lacks dignity EVER AGAIN. But, since we live in a free country, you wll be allowed to talk again. Terri may not.

Dying from dehydration is not dignified. It is one of the most excruciating ways to die, ever. And if there is even a HINT of cognisance, someone ought to DO something!

IF those were Terri's wishes, then yes, all the people fighting for her life would all be in a very tenous position. BUT the only person who has said she wanted to die is her husband, who arguably has a lot of conflicts of interest, which none of us can prove either way. Those who wish Terri to die are very loud and forceful about their opinion, which unfortunately seems to equate to fact for some people. But being loud doesn't make you right.

You are the one who won't bother to look up a single fact. Or you would know the whole premise of your argument is wrong.

It is not true that the only person who testified under oath to Mrs. Shiavo's wishes is Mr. Shiavo. There were other witnesses.

On the other hand, the Schindlers could not produce a single witness that Mrs. Schiavo would want to be forcibly kept alive. The best they could provide was their own testimony that (a) she hadn't told them either way and (b) they didn't think she'd want to be allowed to die. (Of course, they admitted their opinion wouldn't change if she had told them she would wish to be allowed to die.)

Well, I'm going to step out on a limb here. Assasinate me if you wish.

I don't give a ratshit what the dozen courts think. I applaud the judges in the minority who stood for their beliefs. But the majority are a stain on our nation's image. The courts have a long history of injustice towards people, always finding a way to legalize opression through technicalities.

Courts are not always right. Granted. But they -- unlike you or I -- have had the facts before them. A week long trial. Another week long hearing. Etc.

No judges -- not one -- has held that Mrs. Schiavo should be forcibly kept alive. Not one has indicated a belief that Mrs. Schiavo would wish to be forcibly kept alive. Not one has indicated a belief that Mrs. Schiavo is not in a pesistent vegetative state.

Judge Greer the trial court judge is a Republican. Known as a compassionate conservative. The other judges that have heard this case come from multiple ideological perspectives.

This "I don't care what the courts say" is a common refrain among those who disagree. There is no legal technicality here. This is only a political issue to those of you who wish to make it one. The disagreement is over the facts. Multiple courts have heard the facts and all have rejected your view.

Who would you have decide the issue?

People should not be forcibly kept alive against their wishes. That is not a technicality. It is liberty.

I dont know how old you are, but do you think that perhaps it is possible, that while they were visiting a sick relative or in a hopspital or watching a show (or something like that) a person would lean over and mention to their spouse that they certainly wouldnt want to be kept as a vegetable like that.

Possible. As for my age, I'm 22! I do know my mom's wishes as well as my dad's! I do not know if their siblings know what they want or my dad's dad.

It isnt the sort of thing that comes up in the normal course of any conversation.

In my household it is considering my dad's profession

It is the sort of banter that people have with their spouses or those with whom they are in a relationship.

And a mother-daughter relationship isn't? I have a father-son relationship with my dad! Isn't that a relationship?

Besides, how many people do you know (a poll came up with less than 18%) who expressly wish to be kept alive indefinitely in a vegetative state?

In today's time, I want to make sure they are before doing anything.

Honestly Corneliu, be reasonable about this.

I am. I'm being nothing but truthful.

It is very said, but not surprising, to see these points come up again:

"Her parents dressed her up like a doll."

Terri can not dress herself. Would you rather they videotaped her nude? I guess since it's ok to kill someone you don't like, it must be ok to pretend they don't need to be dressed. Ding.

"It is a slur on her"
Not just Republicans but Democrats should be fighting for Terri's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Courts do not have the right to kill someone without cause. Terri never even committed a misdemeanor, let alone a capital felony.
Her husband is, quite frankly, a shady individual. Ding.

"The Schindlers have no dignity."

You, my friend, have no dignity, for you are attacking a family who is suffering, whose daughter is BEING KILLED SLOWLY by her estranged husband. You have disqualified yourself from saying someone lacks dignity EVER AGAIN. But, since we live in a free country, you wll be allowed to talk again. Terri may not.

Dying from dehydration is not dignified. It is one of the most excruciating ways to die, ever. And if there is even a HINT of cognisance, someone ought to DO something!


There isnt a hint of cognisance. And in any event, because they are capable professionals, the hospital has put mrs schiavo on morphine (AP reported).

There is no dignity in going before a court and claiming that somone in a vegitative state who, in the most literal sense does not have a brain said "I want to live." There is no dignity in throwing your daughter's misfortune the to tabloid press and giving her body over to politicians to kick around for political points.

There is no dignity in slandering your daughter's husband, who is upright and selfless in the execution of his wife's will and the upholding of his oath to her.

There is no dignity in calling your forty one year old daughter your "little baby."

There is no dignity in insisting on the fantasy for years and years that their daughter will recover.

you know what's kinda sad?

all the pro-miserable existance crowd are still arguing the case, despite what is against them:

1) they, to put it simply, have no argument. all the doctors say that she's not coming back and all the courts say it's mr schiavo's responsability.

2) they are making a farce of the justice system. the state court ruled that it's the husband's responsability in this case. does congress have any right to step in and try to have that decision overturned? absolutely not.

3) even if, however unlikely it is, they did win this thing, there is nothing left to save. that's right. the side that favors quality of life has kept the side that favors miserable existance at bay long enough to ensure that terry is finally laid to rest.

You know, Terri's husband got training in medical care just so he could take care of his wife. He has also kept her alive and supported her for 15 years unwaveringly, merely trying to carry out what she would have wanted. The government appointed observer said that she got excellent care and didn't even have a cold sore. This does not sound like a man who cares little for his wife's well being.......

-Kawnipi

You know, Terri's husband got training in medical care just so he could take care of his wife. He has also kept her alive and supported her for 15 years unwaveringly, merely trying to carry out what she would have wanted. The government appointed observer said that she got excellent care and didn't even have a cold sore. This does not sound like a man who cares little for his wife's well being.......

-Kawnipi

Well said. And true. :)

Welcome to the NS Forums, btw. :D

Now prepare to have them go nuts ...

You know, Terri's husband got training in medical care just so he could take care of his wife. He has also kept her alive and supported her for 15 years unwaveringly, merely trying to carry out what she would have wanted. The government appointed observer said that she got excellent care and didn't even have a cold sore. This does not sound like a man who cares little for his wife's well being.......

-Kawnipi

If you read over this thread you'll notice that it doesnt matter what anyone connected to the courts say - they are liars and they lie because they are evil and love killing people.

Mr Schiavo is the worst of them all, he turned down a million dollars in cash to let mrs schiavo's parents have guardianship of her because he has done horrible terrible evil things to her and an autopsy would somehow reveal them.

Welcome to the NS forums,

Also, it is best that you not manually put your name at the end of your posts. There is a signature feature that you can find by clicking "profile" at the top left.
Also, somone named urantia ii does that and... well do a forum search for his thread titled "constitution - unconstituional" and you'll be able to make a more informed decision regarding the manual signature.

If you read over this thread you'll notice that it doesnt matter what anyone connected to the courts say - they are liars and they lie because they are evil and love killing people.

Mr Schiavo is the worst of them all, he turned down a million dollars in cash to let mrs schiavo's parents have guardianship of her because he has done horrible terrible evil things to her and an autopsy would somehow reveal them.

Welcome to the NS forums,

Don't forget. They eat babies too.

Don't forget. They eat babies too.

I demand an apology!

Don't forget. They eat babies too.

But only after they machine-gun them.

I think the following article (link here (http://www.thecrimson.com/today/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=506716)) best sums up why the "Let's get rid of Terri, and why hasn't she died yet" crowd is so appalling to those of us who have a healthy respect for life.

Yes it's a long read, but if you bother reading it, you will understand why each life, regardless of the perceived quality.

FOCUS: Bigotry and the Murder of Terri Schiavo
By JOE FORD

“Misery can only be removed from the world by painless extermination of the miserable.”—a Nazi writer quoted by Robert J. Lifton in The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide

The case of Terri Schiavo has been framed by the media as the battle between the “right to die” and pro-life groups, with the latter often referred to as “right-wing Christians.” Little attention has been paid to the more than twenty major disability rights organizations firmly supporting Schiavo’s right to nutrition and hydration. Terri Schindler-Schiavo, a severely disabled woman, is being starved and dehydrated to death in the name of supposed “dignity.” Polls show that most Americans believe that her death is a private matter and that her removal from a feeding tube—a low-tech, simple and inexpensive device used to feed many sick and disabled people—is a reasonable solution to the conflict between her husband and her parents over her right to life.

The reason for this public support of removal from ordinary sustenance, I believe, is not that most people understand or care about Terri Schiavo. Like many others with disabilities, I believe that the American public, to one degree or another, holds that disabled people are better off dead. To put it in a simpler way, many Americans are bigots. A close examination of the facts of the Schiavo case reveals not a case of difficult decisions but a basic test of this country’s decency.

Our country has learned that we cannot judge people on the basis of minority status, but for some reason we have not erased our prejudice against disability. One insidious form of this bias is to distinguish cognitively disabled persons from persons whose disabilities are “just” physical. Cognitively disabled people are shown a manifest lack of respect in daily life, as well. This has gotten so perturbing to me that when I fly, I try to wear my Harvard t-shirt so I can “pass” as a person without cognitive disability. (I have severe cerebral palsy, the result of being deprived of oxygen at birth. While some people with cerebral palsy do have cognitive disability, my articulation difference and atypical muscle tone are automatically associated with cognitive disability in the minds of some people.)

The result of this disrespect is the devaluation of lives of people like Terri Schiavo. In the Schiavo case and others like it, non-disabled decision makers assert that the disabled person should die because he or she—ordinarily a person who had little or no experience with disability before acquiring one—“would not want to live like this.” In the Schiavo case, the family is forced to argue that Terri should be kept alive because she might “get better”—that is, might be able to regain or to communicate her cognitive processes. The mere assertion that disability (particularly cognitive disability, sometimes called “mental retardation”) is present seems to provide ample proof that death is desirable.

Essentially, then, we have arrived at the point where we starve people to death because he or she cannot communicate their experiences to us. What is this but sheer egotism? Regardless of one’s religious beliefs, this is obviously an attempt to play God.

Not Dead Yet, an organization of persons with disabilities who oppose assisted suicide and euthanasia, maintains that the starvation and dehydration of Terri Schiavo will put the lives of thousands of severely disabled children and adults at risk. (The organization takes its name from the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail in which a plague victim not dying fast enough is hit over the head and carted away after repeatedly insisting he is not dead yet.) Not Dead Yet exposes important biases in the “right to die” movement, including the fact that as early as 1988, Jack Kevorkian advertised his intention of performing medical experimentation (“hitherto conducted on rats”) on living children with spina bifida, at the same time harvesting their organs for reuse.

Besides being disabled, Schiavo and I have something important in common, that is, someone attempted to terminate my life by removing my endotracheal tube during resuscitation in my first hour of life. This was a quality-of-life decision: I was simply taking too long to breathe on my own, and the person who pulled the tube believed I would be severely disabled if I lived, since lack of oxygen causes cerebral palsy. (I was saved by my family doctor inserting another tube as quickly as possible.) The point of this is not that I ended up at Harvard and Schiavo did not, as some people would undoubtedly conclude. The point is that society already believes to some degree that it is acceptable to murder disabled people.

As Schiavo starves to death, we are entering a world last encountered in Nazi Europe. Prior to the genocide of Jews, Gypsies, and Poles, the Nazis engaged in the mass murder of disabled children and adults, many of whom were taken from their families under the guise of receiving treatment for their disabling conditions. The Nazis believed that killing was the highest form of treatment for disability.

As the opening quote suggests, Nazi doctors believed, or claimed to believe, they were performing humanitarian acts. Doctors were trained to believe that curing society required the elimination of individual patients. This sick twisting of medical ethics led to a sense of fulfillment of duty experienced by Nazi doctors, leading them to a conviction that they were relieving suffering. Not Dead Yet has uncovered the same perverse sense of duty in members of the Hemlock Society, now called End-of-Life Choices. (In 1997, the executive director of the Hemlock Society suggested that judicial review be used regularly “when it is necessary to hasten the death of an individual whether it be a demented parent, a suffering, severely disabled spouse or a child.” This illustrates that the “right to die” movement favors the imposition of death sentences on disabled people by means of the judicial branch.)

For an overview of what “end-of-life choices” mean for Schiavo, I refer you to the Exit Protocol prepared for her in 2003 by her health care providers (available online at http://www.cst-phl.com/050113/sixth.html). In the midst of her starvation, Terri will most likely be treated for “pain or discomfort” and nausea which may arise as the result of the supposedly humane process of bringing about her death. (Remember that Schiavo is not terminally ill.) She may be given morphine for respiratory distress and may experience seizures. This protocol confirms what we have learned from famines and death camps: death by starvation is a horrible death.

This apparently is what it means to have “rights” as a disabled person in America today.

Joe Ford ’06 is a government concentrator in Currier House.
There. I don't expect that this will change any minds in the "Let's get rid of Terri" crowd. But maybe it will get you to think, and that would be a good thing.

you don't want her starving to death?

then get some of those ridiculous anti-euthenasia laws repealed. :headbang:

face it: she's gone and there's nothing you're going to do about it

no amount of bedside prayer or feeding tube slush is going to regrow a brain



let's just say, for a moment, that we put the tube back in, and she was returned to the state that she was in at this time last year.

what happens in 10 years, when, as a normal human being, she starts having perfectly normal health issues, say... her kidneys give out.

are you going to remove them and put her on a kidney machine?

what happens when her heart gives out for the last time. does she get an artificial one?

what if she develops breast cancer?

do they remove them?

in 500 years, is there going to be a hospital bed covered in machinery called 'terry' attached to 5 muscle cells in the center?

at what point do you just let the woman have peace?

I think the following article (link here (http://www.thecrimson.com/today/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=506716)) best sums up why the "Let's get rid of Terri, and why hasn't she died yet" crowd is so appalling to those of us who have a healthy respect for life.

Yes it's a long read, but if you bother reading it, you will understand why each life, regardless of the perceived quality.

There. I don't expect that this will change any minds in the "Let's get rid of Terri" crowd. But maybe it will get you to think, and that would be a good thing.

Hmmm the Nazi argument.

Well nobody is even remotely suggesting terminating all disabled people.

In the authors case, CP is different then Terri's case. With CP the person is aware. Terri is not.

As to the groups in question, how many a religious based? I heard such claims on Larry King and both arguing against the tube pull were bornagains.

Some of the people fighting this are sincere yet many see this as a way to attack abortion.

Ah well. Just as you claim the right to die types will never change, the same applies to you.

Hmmm the Nazi argument.

Well nobody is even remotely suggesting terminating all disabled people.Oh my goodness! Terri Schindler, a disabled woman, is RIGHT NOW being terminated! What part of the whole issue have you missed???

In the authors case, CP is different then Terri's case. With CP the person is aware. Terri is not.How do you know this?? Have you seen the videos with her reactions to her family and friends? Have you seen or read the interviews with the nurses who have treated her??

As to the groups in question, how many a religious based? I heard such claims on Larry King and both arguing against the tube pull were bornagains.

Some of the people fighting this are sincere yet many see this as a way to attack abortion.I guess the part about religions being pro-LIFE somehow makes the pro-LIFE position less worthy??? It doesn't matter if it's a 41-yr old woman, or a baby in the womb...MURDER, legalized or not, IS MURDER.

Ah well. Just as you claim the right to die types will never change, the same applies to you.Proudly so. The lives of those who cannot defend themselves HAVE to be defended. By the way, this is not a "right to die" case, since Terri Schindler is not the one making the call...this is a "right to kill the inconvenient" case, as presented by her so-called husband.

Dead from the neck down, I'd rather live. Dead from the neck up is just dead.

Dead from the neck down, I'd rather live. Dead from the neck up is just dead.
And yet, it's never been proven that she is dead "from the neck up." She reacts to stimuli, and the infamous feeding tube wasn't permanently attached to her, it would be attached only at feeding times.

Terry schiavo isnt disabled, she is a permanent vegitative state.

Her brain is dead.

Terry schiavo isnt disabled, she is a permanent vegitative state.

Her brain is dead.
Remind me again what school you went to for your degree in Neurology...

Remind me again what school you went to for your degree in Neurology...


The school of critical reasoning where you learn about trusting experts in their respective fields instead of the hysterical ranting of brain-dead women's parents who call their brain-dead forty one year old daughters "little babies" and make things up like "she said 'I want to live' shortly before they removed her feeding tube."

The school where you learn that there arent massive governmental conspiracies dedicated to murdering brain dead middle aged women so that their husbands can fail to collect million dollar offers to do otherwise.

For Christ's sake be reasonable on easter.

For Christ's sake be reasonable on easter.
For Christ's sake, take a stand for LIFE on Easter, the day in which Jesus Christ vanquished Death, in order to save your soul and mine.

All the rest of your post tells me you simply have fallen hook, line and sinker for the rationalizing of murder.

grenada, just leave off of it.

nothing they say will make them win, and nothing you say now will convince them to stop torturing a goldfish in a woman's body.

as far as i'm concerned, the debate is over.

For Christ's sake, take a stand for LIFE on Easter, the day in which Jesus Christ vanquished Death, in order to save your soul and mine.

All the rest of your post tells me you simply have fallen hook, line and sinker for the rationalizing of murder.


I oppose the death penalty and the war in iraq and the murder of POWs and I oppose having powerful and dangerous small arms permeating our society. I oppose leaving poor sick people high and dry and I oppose the criminal neglect of the US for the thousands of people in the third world who we let die *every day.*

In broad terms, to stand by and let that many people die every day while you cry and rant and rave about a woman who is brain dead qualifies a person as a psychopath.

It isnt substantially different from standing by and whining about terry schiavo while somone machine guns a room filled with children. While you have the power to stop it. And doing nothing.

grenada, just leave off of it.

nothing they say will make them win, and nothing you say now will convince them to stop torturing a goldfish in a woman's body.

as far as i'm concerned, the debate is over.
The debate is over, here on Earth. However, one day you will be called to account for your stances on many issues during your time here. I, on the one hand, can proudly say I stood up for the defenseless. What will you have to say?

The debate is over, here on Earth. However, one day you will be called to account for your stances on many issues during your time here. I, on the one hand, can proudly say I stood up for the defenseless. What will you have to say?


You obviously think very highly of yourself.

Thats your business.

It doesnt save any starving people or prevent any preventable illnesses or provide dying children with medicine.

You obviously think very highly of yourself.

Thats your business.

It doesnt save any starving people or prevent any preventable illnesses or provide dying children with medicine.
I am doing my part to save lives, one at a time. You, on the other hand, are working to ensure the "useless" are disposed of. And your stance on the death penalty and the Iraq War speaks volumes as to whose lives you consider important. Oh well...we'll all have to account for our lives one day. I can sleep a little better, knowing I have taken the right approach on this one issue.

I am doing my part to save lives, one at a time. You, on the other hand, are working to ensure the "useless" are disposed of. And your stance on the death penalty and the Iraq War speaks volumes as to whose lives you consider important. Oh well...we'll all have to account for our lives one day. I can sleep a little better, knowing I have taken the right approach on this one issue.


If you put those lies in a book i'm fairly certain i could get one of those upright judges to award me a nice slice of your bank account.

Mrs Schiavo isnt "useless," the term and the idea never entered my mind.

Rather, she is permanently brain dead and wished not to be artifically maintained if in such a state. Thats it.

People who are permanently brain dead and didnt want to be artifically maintained in such a state shouldnt be maintained in such a state.

No precedent is set by this case, no substantive new right is created and no right is lost. This has nothing to do with the rights of the disabled. Which I support.

The debate is over, here on Earth. However, one day you will be called to account for your stances on many issues during your time here. I, on the one hand, can proudly say I stood up for the defenseless. What will you have to say?


i gave rest to those in pain


sorry if it offends you, but i hold quality of life in higher esteem than life.

Oh my goodness! Terri Schindler, a disabled woman, is RIGHT NOW being terminated! What part of the whole issue have you missed???


What part have you missed? The question at hand is allowing a person with no awarness of her own existence to end her life.


How do you know this?? Have you seen the videos with her reactions to her family and friends? Have you seen or read the interviews with the nurses who have treated her??

The comments of neurologists and her Guardian Ad Litem. They have all said she is in a Persistent Vegitative State.

The only Neurologist who has argued is also associated with 5 Pro-Life groups(I think it was 5).

As her GAL said, the tape is alarming but he didn't feel there was anything to suggest she was aware. She had all the classic signs for PVS.

Desperation can make people think something is there when it isn't.


I guess the part about religions being pro-LIFE somehow makes the pro-LIFE position less worthy??? It doesn't matter if it's a 41-yr old woman, or a baby in the womb...MURDER, legalized or not, IS MURDER.

Pro-Life is fine as long as you "honestly" evaluate the situation. For exampe, the one Neurologist who says she isn't in a PVS.

This situation is the families decesion. Not the goverments and more importantly not yours.


Proudly so. The lives of those who cannot defend themselves HAVE to be defended. By the way, this is not a "right to die" case, since Terri Schindler is not the one making the call...this is a "right to kill the inconvenient" case, as presented by her so-called husband.

Actually if you are going to quote the Knights creed the saying is "Defend the helpless and protect the innocent"

The situation is the families call. The husband says she would not want to live that way just as mine told me the same after seeing such cases.

It's interesting all the slander thrown by the Pro-Life fronts against everybody involved. The husband, the judges, the President......

god people. you just won't let her have her peaceful way to die. i know it's hard to let go, but it's gonna happen someday and it's better to get it over sooner than later. if u were in terry's position, you would want to die. don't deny it with your pointless excuses, you would want to take your life in order to end the suffering. gov. bush has absolutely no right to intervene as well as congress. i am happy that terry is finally getting her wish granted. i strongly believe that terry did say that if she was in a state like that, that she would want to die. again, please don't deny that with your pointless excuses. and also, why should gov. bush intervene while there are many people being executed on death row in florida? this makes so sense and contains no logic. but there is one simple word to solve that question... "REPUBLICAN".

Actually I heard the husband stands to gain alot from her death. He received a settlement from the whole ordeal and now he wants her gone so he can go spend it..................the medical attention costs alot for his wife and well.............figure it out. How will we ever know if she really wanted to die or not, it's not in writing. I mean she probably did want to die, or not live like this, but he is getting sick of it all and just wants it to end, whether its in his best interest or not..........will we ever know.

I still think the money has something to do with it. My opinion.

EDIT: Me myself, would NOT want to live like this........its been 12 years, let it go (my opinion again).

That is bullshit, only the simple FACT that he refused the offer of 1.000.000$ from a rich conservative millionaire if he let her live proves this. The best example that he is acting for the best for his former wife, instead of those religious torturers that want her to continue suffering. Bunch of conservative fools and liars that should shame themselves for spreading such lies.

IF those were Terri's wishes, then yes, all the people fighting for her life would all be in a very tenous position. BUT the only person who has said she wanted to die is her husband, who arguably has a lot of conflicts of interest, which none of us can prove either way.


Are you married?

Does everything you tell your wife also get told to your mother?

Does every intimate detail of your marriage and the desires you share with your wife also get written into the annual Christmas letter?

Could it be said that there is a conflict of interest in the affairs of your wife?

I'll answer the last one for you: Yes, it can. If there weren't a strong conflict of interest, then your marriage is a sad one indeed.

Final question: If your wife told you she wanted to die in this situation, how long would it take you to come to terms with it and carry out her wishes?

She reacts to stimuli

So do bacteria. Do you not bathe? That kills millions of innocent "lives", you know.

Are you married?

Does everything you tell your wife also get told to your mother?

Does every intimate detail of your marriage and the desires you share with your wife also get written into the annual Christmas letter?

Could it be said that there is a conflict of interest in the affairs of your wife?

I'll answer the last one for you: Yes, it can. If there weren't a strong conflict of interest, then your marriage is a sad one indeed.

Final question: If your wife told you she wanted to die in this situation, how long would it take you to come to terms with it and carry out her wishes?
Makes me wonder about the Sanctity of marriage being fought for in Gay marriage.
If the husband/spouse no longer has rights over family than bible be damned, eh? Why do those who preach the bible deny its words?(talking about Bush and other religious republicans))
In the bible you leave you family and cleft to your spouse, they have authority in these situations.(genesis)

So marriage is only sacred when the family agrees...wow...Bush needs to explain that.

Makes me wonder about the Sanctity of marriage being fought for in Gay marriage.
If the husband/spouse no longer has rights over family than bible be damned, eh? Why do those who preach the bible deny its words?(talking about Bush and other religious republicans))
In the bible you leave you family and cleft to your spouse, they have authority in these situations.(genesis)

So marriage is only sacred when the family agrees...wow...Bush needs to explain that.
Keruvalia is Moslem. :)

I am doing my part to save lives, one at a time. You, on the other hand, are working to ensure the "useless" are disposed of.

Why do people like you always have to pretend 'we' are part of some daemonic cult dedicated to gathering power trough some form of evil ritual fueled by the killing of 'useless people', by which we hope to summon ShAg-NaGgOtH tHe DeFiLeR oF kItTeNs?

Is this the only way you can make your point?

The debate is over, here on Earth. However, one day you will be called to account for your stances on many issues during your time here. I, on the one hand, can proudly say I stood up for the defenseless. What will you have to say?

Whatever helps you sleep at night, skippy.

You've warndered far afield of either reason or evidence. You do not care what the facts are, just what fits your sad little view.

If there is a higher power, I'd gladly defend my position on this issue. As would the Christian judges that actually know something about the case.

If advocating the endless torturing of the body of a brain dead woman makes you feel all warm and tingly inside so be it. As long as it stays imaginary.

You've warned far afield of either reason or evidence. You do not care what the facts are, just what fits your sad little view.


are you suprised by this?

both my sig and the beatles quote i mentioned earlier (in another thread? i cant remember) sum it up perfectly:

"he's as blind as he can be
just sees what he wants to see
nowhere man, can you see me
at all?"