NationStates Jolt Archive

he committed adultery on her. that in itself should disqualify him.

Jon sums this one up for me (http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/) 3/21 show.

he committed adultery on her. that in itself should disqualify him.
why? because you say so?

one way to see it is that he shacked up with another woman while his wife lay dying. yeah, he looks like a real jackass in that situation, doesn't he?

but the other view point, one supported by people who know the family, is that he remained married to what is, effectively, the corpse of his former wife because he wanted to ensure her wishes would be fulfilled. he knew her parents would not respect Terry's beliefs by allowing her to die, and if he divorced her he would lose any chance of seeing those beliefs properly honored. so instead of divorcing her, abandoning her to a lifetime of vegitative purgatory, and going on about his own life, he stayed with her. he turned down massive sums of money offered as bribes to make him go away. he suffers harassment and horrible publicity. he has nothing to gain from this, and much to lose.

yes, he has another woman in his life...so? his wife has been gone for 15 years. would you think better of him if he had abandoned Terry and gotten remarried? or do you, perhaps, expect a widower to never find companionship again?

and you know what? none of it matters. i'm not saying he's a perfect guy. he may be a total wanker, for all i know. he may really be a philandering jerkwad. but the law is clear: his claim has been scrutinized and upheld by numerous legal proceedings, and he IS Terry's next of kin. he IS authorized to make this choice. you don't have to like it, but it's not your choice to make...and it sure as fuck isn't Congress' choice to make.

wow. nice language.

since he is still married to her and has never tried to divorce her, he has in fact committed adultery. it could be argued that due to this fact, he does not have her best interests at heart.

if michael shiavo wanted companionship because his wife could no longer satisfy him sexually or mentally, then he should have divorced her. but, then he would also have to have given up her guardianship. now, who sounds more selfish? as long as she is still alive, he is still her husband legally.

wow. nice language.

since he is still married to her and has never tried to divorce her, he has in fact committed adultery. it could be argued that due to this fact, he does not have her best interests at heart.

Do you agree that Bottles explanation is also good ?

Since her wish isn't in writing I don't think it is right to end her life simply based on her husband. Death by starvation or dehydration shouldn't even be an option. If it is decided to end someones life in this sorta situation, it should be done quickly .. like with an injection to stop the heart.

I feel for the family and hope no matter what, they are all able to make peace with it and themselves. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

i respect bottles view...however, i dont think that it really proves anything. yes, it has been a case in the court system for 15 years. that is a fact. it is not a fact however, that Terry would have wanted to die, since there is no real proof of that. the family continues to have the right to prove it in court.

and the family has the right to challenge his interests in a court of law. if michael shiavo is guilty of adultery, then it could be argued that he is not the best person to decide his wifes fate. thats all i am saying.

i could be misinformed on this, but i believe that according to Florida law, adultery is punishable by 2 years in jail. if he were convicted of that, then it could be easily determined that he is not eligible to be her guardian.

but, i am not 100% sure on that law.

i could be misinformed on this, but i believe that according to Florida law, adultery is punishable by 2 years in jail. if he were convicted of that, then it could be easily determined that he is not eligible to be her guardian.

but, i am not 100% sure on that law.
That would be one screwed up law.

Almost 4 years ago my daughter went into seizure. Since she was epileptic, the hospital treated her seizures as such for almost 5 hours. At that time, they thought maybe they should get a CAT scan. The CAT showed that she had had a brain aneurysm and that there were massive collections of blood throughout her brain. Within 24 hours the bruising to her brain caused it to swell and push down into her spinal column. After extensive tests, they determined that she had no brain activity at all. She was brain dead. Her father, her fiance', her siblings, and I talked it over and agreed to allow the doctors to remove her from life support...respirator, pace maker, etc. She was eased on in an operating room harvesting organs for donation.

As a mother, that was the hardest decision of my life...and one that I have second guessed myself on over and over. Logically, I know that she was gone. That her body was kept alive through dozens of machines. A mother doesn't carry her love for her child in her brain, though.

If she had shown 1/10th of the awareness and abilities that Terri Schiavo shows in videos, I would have fought anyone, anywhere, for as long as it took to give her the chance to recover. Even if she had no chance of total recovery. Intelligence is prized most by the intelligent. It's not a requirement to have a happy life. How many times have you seen a mentally handicapped person smiling and laughing over the simple things that we "intelligent" people take for granted? You love your children no matter their mental or physical capabilites and will do anything you have to to protect them.

So, before you call her parents selfish, ignorant, and cruel, stop...think...how far would your mother go to protect you?

Under Florida Statute 744.474, a guardian found guilty, regardless of adjudication, to any offense prohibited under Florida Statute 435.03, which includes lewd and lascivious behavior, should be removed.


this is what i found regarding guardianship and floridas adultery laws.

well said, zooke

Almost 4 years ago my daughter went into seizure. Since she was epileptic, the hospital treated her seizures as such for almost 5 hours. At that time, they thought maybe they should get a CAT scan. The CAT showed that she had had a brain aneurysm and that there were massive collections of blood throughout her brain. Within 24 hours the bruising to her brain caused it to swell and push down into her spinal column. After extensive tests, they determined that she had no brain activity at all. She was brain dead. Her father, her fiance', her siblings, and I talked it over and agreed to allow the doctors to remove her from life support...respirator, pace maker, etc. She was eased on in an operating room harvesting organs for donation.

As a mother, that was the hardest decision of my life...and one that I have second guessed myself on over and over. Logically, I know that she was gone. That her body was kept alive through dozens of machines. A mother doesn't carry her love for her child in her brain, though.

If she had shown 1/10th of the awareness and abilities that Terri Schiavo shows in videos, I would have fought anyone, anywhere, for as long as it took to give her the chance to recover. Even if she had no chance of total recovery. Intelligence is prized most by the intelligent. It's not a requirement to have a happy life. How many times have you seen a mentally handicapped person smiling and laughing over the simple things that we "intelligent" people take for granted? You love your children no matter their mental or physical capabilites and will do anything you have to to protect them.

So, before you call her parents selfish, ignorant, and cruel, stop...think...how far would your mother go to protect you?

I'm sorry to hear about your loss Zooke but thanks for sharing your story. It does help me understand the parents side more.

Almost 4 years ago my daughter went into seizure. Since she was epileptic, the hospital treated her seizures as such for almost 5 hours. At that time, they thought maybe they should get a CAT scan. The CAT showed that she had had a brain aneurysm and that there were massive collections of blood throughout her brain. Within 24 hours the bruising to her brain caused it to swell and push down into her spinal column. After extensive tests, they determined that she had no brain activity at all. She was brain dead. Her father, her fiance', her siblings, and I talked it over and agreed to allow the doctors to remove her from life support...respirator, pace maker, etc. She was eased on in an operating room harvesting organs for donation.

As a mother, that was the hardest decision of my life...and one that I have second guessed myself on over and over. Logically, I know that she was gone. That her body was kept alive through dozens of machines. A mother doesn't carry her love for her child in her brain, though.

If she had shown 1/10th of the awareness and abilities that Terri Schiavo shows in videos, I would have fought anyone, anywhere, for as long as it took to give her the chance to recover. Even if she had no chance of total recovery. Intelligence is prized most by the intelligent. It's not a requirement to have a happy life. How many times have you seen a mentally handicapped person smiling and laughing over the simple things that we "intelligent" people take for granted? You love your children no matter their mental or physical capabilites and will do anything you have to to protect them.

So, before you call her parents selfish, ignorant, and cruel, stop...think...how far would your mother go to protect you?
( HUGGGG ) Love u, Zooke!

( HUGGGG ) Love u, Zooke!

Thank you. I needed a hug after that. Crying like an idiot.

Thank you. I needed a hug after that. Crying like an idiot.
I know. ( HUGGGGGGG )

Actually I heard the husband stands to gain alot from her death. He received a settlement from the whole ordeal and now he wants her gone so he can go spend it..................the medical attention costs alot for his wife and well.............figure it out. How will we ever know if she really wanted to die or not, it's not in writing. I mean she probably did want to die, or not live like this, but he is getting sick of it all and just wants it to end, whether its in his best interest or not..........will we ever know.

I still think the money has something to do with it. My opinion.

EDIT: Me myself, would NOT want to live like this........its been 12 years, let it go (my opinion again).

I have heard something very similar to this on the News, that there is a settlement and it was to be used for her care until her Death and what was left goes to her beneficiary...

But, I don't see how HE is any longer HER beneficiary, isn't he in a "common Law" Marriage with another woman now?

I believe the beneficiary status should go to her "next of kin".

Regards,
Gaar

Please, let me add, my daughter was never a vegetable or a useless lump of flesh. She was a human being, deserving the same rights, respect, and courtesy afforded to all people. When discussing Terri Schiavo and others unfortunate enough to be in her shape or worse, please remember this...They're people, too. But for the grace of God...

I think the real test of the character of schiavo's parents and husband will be when this is through and terry schiavo is in the ground, which party will seek to profit from the whole ordeal (books, tv movies, talk shows).

I dont recall mr schiavo having sought any publicity out of this, it is the poor woman's parents who have created this massive stink.

As a resident of Florida, I have known about this case for almost 2 years. For the record, the husband does stand to gain from her death. He will get her life insurance, worth millions I've heard. However, this does not seem to be the real reason he wants her gone. She has been in this vegetative state for 15 years, with no hope of recovery, as her cerebral cortex is dead (the section of the brain that gives us personality, thought, sensations, etc. In essence, all that makes us a person). She is in an unconscious state, even though her eyes can open. The husband did not even attempt to pull her feeding tube until about 5 years ago. That's 10 years of standing by her side, giving the chance for some seemingly-holy miracle to occur. He has been waiting so long, has spent so much money on her, and he is entitled to her insurance money. He really did love her. She is in this vegetative state because of her eating disorder, which caused her heart to fail, and her brain was deprived of oxygen for more than 6 minutes. This means he stuck with her on her self-destructive path. Sometimes, it's too sad to watch, and if I had a wife who did that to herself, I'm not sure I'd be strong enough to watch her do that to herself. He loved her, there's no question. Maybe she didn't expressly tell him she wanted to be disconnected, but she most likely didn't tell him the opposite either. He is doing what he thinks is best, and that is his right as next of kin. When a person can't speak for themselves, next of kin has the right to accept or refuse medical treatment. By US Standards, next of kin goes as follows: 1. Spouse 2. Adult Children 3. Parents
Keeping her alive is ok, but it is not necessary. She will never recover, and basically only technically lives. She is not alive except that her body works. Her brain, all that was her, is long gone. Her husband has the right to move on with his life, and his new family. He waited for so long, and he has the right as much as anyone to move on with his life. Her parents are extremely selfish and dillusional. Despite what they say, look at what the doctors say. There is no chance of recovery, and whatever pain someone might normally experience, she cannot.

I think the real test of the character of schiavo's parents and husband will be when this is through and terry schiavo is in the ground, which party will seek to profit from the whole ordeal (books, tv movies, talk shows).

I dont recall mr schiavo having sought any publicity out of this, it is the poor woman's parents who have created this massive stink.

Yeah, if I was just "hanging around" until she died, while living and bearing children with another woman, I am pretty sure I wouldn't want much Publicity either...

However, if I were HER Parents and saw what HE was doing, I would WANT to SHOW the World, so someone may try and stop it, and HELP ME SAVE MY CHILD!

Regards,
Gaar

created a stink? her parents are fighting for her life, not a "stink"

I would contend that her life ended when she entered her persistant vegitative state fifteen years ago.

I feel I must refute the supposed "activity" of Mrs. Shiavo. This is all nerve responses. She herself cannot think, in any way, shape or form. She is in a constant state of nothing. Any reactions she may appear to show are mere nerve responses, just as chickens can run around with missing heads. Any smiling she may have is just like a small baby appearing to smile: gas. This is the truth.

What trained, medical school graduates, who have had special training and have studied the brain extra ie. neurologists, who know more than any stupid set of parents, congressmen, etc. have said:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7264562/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7257835/

MAINSTREAM NEWS^^^

I feel I must refute the supposed "activity" of Mrs. Shiavo. This is all nerve responses. She herself cannot think, in any way, shape or form. She is in a constant state of nothing. Any reactions she may appear to show are mere nerve responses, just as chickens can run around with missing heads. Any smiling she may have is just like a small baby appearing to smile: gas. This is the truth.

What trained, medical school graduates, who have had special training and have studied the brain extra ie. neurologists, who know more than any stupid set of parents, congressmen, etc. have said:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7264562/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7257835/

MAINSTREAM NEWS^^^

And if a Parent believes that they MAY ALL be wrong, and that any chance I may have to be with my child and smile at her as she is smiling at me, and tell her I LOVE HER... If there is even a "slim chance" that she recognizes such things and just isn't able to react, well I would say that it would be a difficult decision to not support her "Life" and simply let her die...

Although I have to admit that a small part of me is saying that even IF she is able to "know these things" that I am not sure she would "want" to continue her Life in this manner.

It is a TERRIBLE THING to HAVE to consider.

There are some very valid points on BOTH sides of the discussion...

But as the President has said... When there is a dispute in such things as Life, we should always err on the Side of Protecting Life.

Regards,
Gaar

And if a Parent believes that they MAY ALL be wrong, and that any chance I may have to be with my child and smile at her as she is smiling at me, and tell her I LOVE HER... If there is even a "slim chance" that she recognizes such things and just isn't able to react, well I would say that it would be a difficult decision to not support her "Life" and simply let her die...

Although I have to admit that a small part of me is saying that even IF she is able to "know these things" that I am not sure she would "want" to continue her Life in this manner.

It is a TERRIBLE THING to HAVE to consider.

There are some very valid points on BOTH sides of the discussion...

But as the President has said... When there is a dispute in such things as Life, we should always err on the Side of Protecting Life.

Regards,
Gaar
The republicans need to stop throwing around the weight of the government on non-government related issues and playing political football with whatever issue they can wrap in a pigskin

The republicans need to stop throwing around the weight of the government on non-government related issues and playing political football with whatever issue they can wrap in a pigskin

Yeah, you're right...

After all, the Right to LIFE is such a trivial thing. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Gaar

i think everyone agrees that this woman is in a terminal state. theres absolutely no doubt about it. however, doctors are not GODS. her medical condition may or may not improve. terry still has a soul that is alive and well

And if a Parent believes that they MAY ALL be wrong, and that any chance I may have to be with my child and smile at her as she is smiling at me, and tell her I LOVE HER... If there is even a "slim chance" that she recognizes such things and just isn't able to react, well I would say that it would be a difficult decision to not support her "Life" and simply let her die...

Although I have to admit that a small part of me is saying that even IF she is able to "know these things" that I am not sure she would "want" to continue her Life in this manner.

It is a TERRIBLE THING to HAVE to consider.

There are some very valid points on BOTH sides of the discussion...

But as the President has said... When there is a dispute in such things as Life, we should always err on the Side of Protecting Life.

Regards,
Gaar


Right, that's why he signed a bill allowing health care providers to do the EXACT SAME THING but without even the consent of any guardian.

Yeah, you're right...

After all, the Right to LIFE is such a trivial thing. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Gaar

True.

A family should never make their own decessions. That's the job of the goverment. :rolleyes:

How is dehydrating her and starving her humane?

Actually I heard the husband stands to gain alot from her death. He received a settlement from the whole ordeal and now he wants her gone so he can go spend it..................the medical attention costs alot for his wife and well.............figure it out.

Michael Schiavo stands to gain nothing from his wife's death. The settlement he received in her name was used for her medical care for the six years he didn't ask the courts to remove her feeding tube. The Schiavos received the settlement in 1992, two years after her collapse, and he petitioned for the tube to be removed for the first time in 1998. The legal fees he's had to incur in this case far outweigh any settlement he received previously. He rejected a California businessman's offer of a million dollars to keep her alive, so it's clearly not entirely money-driven.

I think that logically speaking, there's really only one explanation for Mister Schiavo's behavior: he genuinely thinks his wife does not want to live in a vegetative state. He waited SIX YEARS to even suggest removing the tube, and I suspect it's because he realized that after all that time, there was no hope of Terri ever recovering. He decided to end her life, and her idiotic parents refuse to get over the grief of losing the daughter that was once inside the shell that remains.

I personally find Terri Schiavo's parents, the Schindlers, an utter disgrace. They have dragged their disabled daughter's name all over the media, courted the religious right, and played into the hands of Republicans wanting to gain more votes in the mid-term elections out of an overly-emotional reaction to their daughter's effective death. They are also extremely spiteful against her husband, and I have no doubt that some of this bickering has to do with that as well. They are, to me, symbols of what lengths people will go to to cling to the past, and to give into their hate. It's disgusting.

The "religious right" and the Republicans who cater to them like whores of Babylon should be ashamed at making a mockery of our judicial system -- nay, our very way of government handed down to us by our founding fathers. I've been living in China the past eight months, and am sitting at home for a brief visit. It frightens me just how much America looks just as much like a totaltarian state as China, the only difference being the God that each country follows. For China, it's money, for the US, it's Christian apocalyptic predeliction.

Ge-Ren

i think everyone agrees that this woman is in a terminal state. theres absolutely no doubt about it. however, doctors are not GODS. her medical condition may or may not improve. terry still has a soul that is alive and well

And what good is her soul trapped inside that body? Do you genuinely think that's good for her soul? We talk all the time about souls being freed after death...yet you willingly trap hers, unable to react to the world and grow stronger because of it?

What kind of monster are you to think that? Thirty years ago, Terri would have died. There were no feeding tubes to keep her body alive. We talk about God and souls and life...and we don't consider that it is a man-made invention that keeps her body functioning? Where is all the talk of God and souls then?

What is WRONG with you people? Fifteen years is more than enough time to say when, and to let this woman's soul move on to a better place. Trapped inside that body, I doubt it's doing much!

Ge-Ren

How is dehydrating her and starving her humane?

It is just killing the body, her consciousness and identity is long gone.

If this isnt the case (which brain scans have proven it is, anyways), then it is a small suffering compared to fifteen years being trapped inside a body you cannot move and indefinite extension of the same.

How is dehydrating her and starving her humane?

It's actually a very peaceful death, particularly when the patient is not aware. It is how most terminally ill patients end up dying in the end. There is nothing odd about that. Endorphins are released in the body when starvation occurs, and the experience is fairly positive given that. There are no other options for the Terri given we don't allow euthanasia.

If you are so concerned about being humane...maybe you should allow a quick and painless death. I know living life in a brainless body is NOT merciful.

Ge-Ren
:mad:

It is just killing the body, her consciousness and identity is long gone.

If this isnt the case (which brain scans have proven it is, anyways), then it is a small suffering compared to fifteen years being trapped inside a body you cannot move and indefinite extension of the same.

I say it violates:

1) Doctors hypocratic oath to do no harm

and

2) The Florida laws as stated on the books

and

3) (And a stretch but...) The 8th Amendment

It's actually a very peaceful death, particularly when the patient is not aware. It is how most terminally ill patients end up dying in the end. There is nothing odd about that. Endorphins are released in the body when starvation occurs, and the experience is fairly positive given that. There are no other options for the Terri given we don't allow euthanasia.

I guess you never seen someone starve to death? I guess you never seen anyone suffering from dehydration? They are not peaceful. It isn't pretty when someone starves to death nor dies of dehydration.

If you are so concerned about being humane...maybe you should allow a quick and painless death. I know living life in a brainless body is NOT merciful.

I have a thing against Euthenasia! Its assisted suicide.

I say it violates:

1) Doctors hypocratic oath to do no harm

and

2) The Florida laws as stated on the books

and

3) (And a stretch but...) The 8th Amendment

It could be argued cogently that withdrawing the elaborate measures keeping her body functioning is not in itself 'doing harm' in the same sense injecting the body with cyanide would be.

Removal of feeding tubes is a completely accepted practice in every state, the only legal issue is whether or not the decision rests with her legal guardian, his contention that her stated wish was not to be kept a vegetable, or the wishes of her parents.

The law clearly states that the matter is in the hands of her husband, her consented (by virtue of marriage) legal guardian.

I am not certain how his contention about her wishes on the matter looks in the eyes of hearsay law, but it is still trivial in light of his status as legal guardian and full legitimate authority to make the decision.

Her parents have no grounds whatsoever, she was not a minor and did not consent for them to be her legal guardians, rather she married and therefore consented for her husband to make such decisions in lieu of a will, he consented to her having identical powers in the same situation.

From what I have read, I think it might be there husbands sheer desperation of seeing his wife still in a coma and wanting to end it. Therefore I would put it under sidenote for now...

Whats your thoughts on it Eutrusca?
The only sheer desperation by M Schiavo comes from his desire to get rid of the evidence of his violence against Terri. Otherwise, why would he deny her any kind of therapy? Why does he want her body cremated immediately upon her death? Why did he, as soon as he got the $1 million for her care, and after 8 years of not remembering, suddenly "remember" a request from Terri, that was totally contrary to anything her own family knows about her? Why would someone who professes to love her as a husband should, start a complete second family, which has a lot to gain from an actual marriage?

In fact, that woman he's living with...she ought to be watching out, make sure she doesn't get a cold, or a sprained ankle...

I HATE that mother f***er! All he has done to "help" that poor family and his wife is pain and misery. He simply has become tired of caring for her and wishes to end the responsiblity. He's with another woman and has two children with her for god's sake! Besides, Terri isn't dying, in fact, with re-hab she has a good chance of recovering. But Mr. Helpful thinks that she would rather STARVE TO DEATH. Mr. Schiavo is the only witness to Terri's statement that she "wished to die" and once when a docter called Terri she suddenly started trying to get out of the bed. When the family asked the docter what he said, he told them that he told Terri, "if you don't get out of that bed, they're going to want to kill you." Is this a sign that she wants to die? I think not! The whole thing makes me so angry sad... i just hope that they can do something for that poor woman.

Zooke got me thinking!

Last May, I lost my grandmother to a liver disease. However, my mom and her sisters knew what their mom wanted. They didn't allow her to be kept alive via artifical means. However, dying of a liver is not a pretty sight. They only thing that they allowed was medication that'll try to let her die peacefully. I wasn't there when she died but from their reaction, it was probably for the best because of how she died. It was still painful and gruesom too according to my parents.

I know that this isn't really related to this case but they did try everything to keep her alive till they all knew that she wasn't going to survive.

Terri is still alive and is breathing on her own. I know she is only getting liquids and food through a tube but that is all that she needs. I am glad that her parents and siblings are doing all they can to keep their daughter/sister alive.

We did all we could to keep my grandmother alive until the whole family knew that she wouldn't make it.

Terri :confused: :sniper: Michael



I see no difference... :headbang:

I HATE that mother f***er! All he has done to "help" that poor family and his wife is pain and misery. He simply has become tired of caring for her and wishes to end the responsiblity. He's with another woman and has two children with her for god's sake! Besides, Terri isn't dying, in fact, with re-hab she has a good chance of recovering. But Mr. Helpful thinks that she would rather STARVE TO DEATH. Mr. Schiavo is the only witness to Terri's statement that she "wished to die" and once when a docter called Terri she suddenly started trying to get out of the bed. When the family asked the docter what he said, he told them that he told Terri, "if you don't get out of that bed, they're going to want to kill you." Is this a sign that she wants to die? I think not! The whole thing makes me so angry sad... i just hope that they can do something for that poor woman.
what

Read about this case and then come back.

Edit: Here I'll help you along. Her cerebral cortex is gone. Non existant. Replaced with spinal fluid. She has no higher brain functions. I don't know if you've ever seen that Mel Brooks movie "Young Frankenstein" but the beginning with Gene Wilder giving a speech about reanimating dead tissue comes to mind. It cannot be done. Once brain cells dissolve into spinal fluid mush, you aren't getting them back, no matter how many Republicans pray outside the hospital (no offense, just sayin'). Right now, her CNS is irreparably damaged, and she is damn near braindead.

Zooke got me thinking!

Last May, I lost my grandmother to a liver disease. However, my mom and her sisters knew what their mom wanted. They didn't allow her to be kept alive via artifical means. However, dying of a liver is not a pretty sight. They only thing that they allowed was medication that'll try to let her die peacefully. I wasn't there when she died but from their reaction, it was probably for the best because of how she died. It was still painful and gruesom too according to my parents.

I know that this isn't really related to this case but they did try everything to keep her alive till they all knew that she wasn't going to survive.

Terri is still alive and is breathing on her own. I know she is only getting liquids and food through a tube but that is all that she needs. I am glad that her parents and siblings are doing all they can to keep their daughter/sister alive.

We did all we could to keep my grandmother alive until the whole family knew that she wouldn't make it.


The difference here is that terry schiavo is long dead and gone, her corpse continues to function because nutrients are pumped into it.

Her body can sit in a bed for another couple decaded processing nutrients that come in through a tube. It doesnt mean that terry schiavo is alive in the sense that a dying person is 'still alive.'

When the brain dies, the identity and consciousness die, as the former are functions of the latter.

Until you have to go through something like what I and my family, Zooke, and the Shiavo's went and are going through, you'll never understand.

Zooke is right. People like shiavo are human beings and need to be treated as such.

My favorite uncle died last year of cancer, I know precisely what you're talking about.

Terry Schiavo is not braindead technically. However, it is clear that she is mindless. Nothing up in the noggin. The only reason Congress is keeping her alive is because she can be used as a precedent to overturn Roe v Wade.

My favorite uncle died last year of cancer, I know precisely what you're talking about.

And I bet you guys fought hard to keep him alive too didn't you?

Terry Schiavo is not braindead technically. However, it is clear that she is mindless. Nothing up in the noggin. The only reason Congress is keeping her alive is because she can be used as a precedent to overturn Roe v Wade.
I didn't mean to say she was braindead, but her higher brain functions are never coming back, that's for sure. It's hard to do certain things without a cerebral cortex.

I'd have figured that this was being used to pull votes, but I suppose overturning Roe v. Wade would be just as useful in pulling votes.

It's actually a very peaceful death, particularly when the patient is not aware. It is how most terminally ill patients end up dying in the end. There is nothing odd about that. Endorphins are released in the body when starvation occurs, and the experience is fairly positive given that.I suppose you speak from personal experience...no? Then how in God's green earth can you tell us how "peaceful" and "painless" it would be for Terri Schindler to die of starvation and dehydration? Let's try it on the pigs being held in Guantanamo...oh, wait, the ACLU and Amnesia International would have a field day with that, due to the in-humanity of such a treatment!

There are no other options for the Terri given we don't allow euthanasia.Gee, how does "letting her live" sound? Maybe, just maybe, Michael Hitler can do the DECENT thing, and allow her parents to take care of her for as long as they live. But, since he doesn't, and he wants so desperately to kill her (yes, KILL her) and get rid of her body (he wants her cremated immediately after her death, no autopsy, no burial,) how are those of us who err on the side of LIFE, how are we to presume that he has nothing to gain or worse, nothing to hide??

If you are so concerned about being humane...maybe you should allow a quick and painless death. I know living life in a brainless body is NOT merciful.
Tell us about it...your lack of concern for a fellow human being and her right to LIFE tells me that you may have plenty of experience living in a soul-less or brain-less body yourself.

And I bet you guys fought hard to keep him alive too didn't you?

Before he was terminal yes, but he insisted, and we obliged, that we bid him farewell and make peace with it. He was a very good man.

I suppose you speak from personal experience...no? Then how in God's green earth can you tell us how "peaceful" and "painless" it would be for Terri Schindler to die of starvation and dehydration? Let's try it on the pigs being held in Guantanamo...oh, wait, the ACLU and Amnesia International would have a field day with that, due to the in-humanity of such a treatment!

Gee, how does "letting her live" sound? Maybe, just maybe, Michael Hitler can do the DECENT thing, and allow her parents to take care of her for as long as they live. But, since he doesn't, and he wants so desperately to kill her (yes, KILL her) and get rid of her body (he wants her cremated immediately after her death, no autopsy, no burial,) how are those of us who err on the side of LIFE, how are we to presume that he has nothing to gain or worse, nothing to hide??

Tell us about it...your lack of concern for a fellow human being and her right to LIFE tells me that you may have plenty of experience living in a soul-less or brain-less body yourself.


You're conusing terry schiavo's mindless body, which functions only because nutrients are pumped into it by a machine with actual people. Schiavo's body is alive, but terry schiavo is dead.

Before he was terminal yes, but he insisted, and we obliged, that we bid him farewell and make peace with it. He was a very good man.

We did the samething with my grandma, may God rest her soul. She was a good woman. I miss her terribly.

You're conusing terry schiavo's mindless body, which functions only because nutrients are pumped into it by a machine with actual people. Schiavo's body is alive, but terry schiavo is dead.
Terri Schindler reacts to her family and friends...she even reacts to her killer. The nurse who took care of Terri for over a year will testify (although the judge in the case won't allow her due to M Schiavo's protestations,) that Terri made attempts to speak, and had violent reactions to seeing her killer...that doesn't sound like a body without a mind to me.

This letter (3/22) to the Times reflects my sentiments on the case I think:

Performing a medical procedure against a patient's will (or that of the patient's legal surrogate) is unethical and illegal.

If Terri Schiavo's feeding tube is now reinserted, the government institutions and individuals responsible will be guilty of assault and should be held accountable.

Every person has the moral and legal right to accept or reject offered treatment. As Ms. Schiavo's legal guardian, her husband, Michael Schiavo, has the responsibility to make such decisions. Ethically and legally, this is a decision to be made by him in consultation with her caregivers.

The actions of Congress and the president this weekend are outrageous and set a dangerous precedent.

Stephen T. Mernoff, M.D.
North Smithfield, R.I.
March 21, 2005 The writer is a clinical assistant professor of neurology at Brown Medical School.

Terri Schindler reacts to her family and friends...she even reacts to her killer. The nurse who took care of Terri for over a year will testify (although the judge in the case won't allow her due to M Schiavo's protestations,) that Terri made attempts to speak, and had violent reactions to seeing her killer...that doesn't sound like a body without a mind to me.


People tend to draw conclusions that are contrary to facts when they want desperately to believe something. Look at all the people who passionately and honestly believe that they are witnesses of conclusive evidence for space aliens or religious miracles.

The convulsions and spasms of a body with the sort of extensive brain damage of the one involved in the schiavo case is to be expected and is well understood.

The convulsions and spasms of a body with the sort of extensive brain damage of the one involved in the schiavo case is to be expected and is well understood.And I presume you're a neurologist, right?

The kind of damage M Schiavo inflicted on Terri, you mean?

The kind of damage M Schiavo inflicted on Terri, you mean?

Odd that you have no doubts about all these secrets that schiavo's parents and the florida police and others in positions to be knowledgable firsthand are conspiring to keep secret.

Is schiavo secretly a nazi too? is it that he wants to murder his wife because her maiden name was schindler perhaps?

Maybe schiavo works in secret for halliburton and helped shoot bombs into the twin towers?

Maybe he is a serial killer and a pederast.

Where do you draw the line with this wild specularion and defamation of character?

I suppose you speak from personal experience...no? Then how in God's green earth can you tell us how "peaceful" and "painless" it would be for Terri Schindler to die of starvation and dehydration? Let's try it on the pigs being held in Guantanamo...oh, wait, the ACLU and Amnesia International would have a field day with that, due to the in-humanity of such a treatment!


Actually it is different then would you suggest. The body in the state it is now, it doesn't last long. An aunt died from terminal cancer. She simply stopped eating and about a week later she was gone.

She won't recover; why not let her go?

The parents will do anything to keep her alive. Even in a deposition the father said he would allow her limbs to be cut off and a heart change to keep her alive. Her one time guardian ad litem said this in an interview.

And I presume you're a neurologist, right?

The kind of damage M Schiavo inflicted on Terri, you mean?

Unless you can cite unbiased sources and documents which say Michael Schiavo inflicted the neural trauma on Terry- which so far have been attributed to the heart attack resulting from her anorexia/bulimia and some mishaps on the part of the medical staff attending to her-

That's libel, propaganda and flamebait.

Odd that you have no doubts about all these secrets that schiavo's parents and the florida police and others in positions to be knowledgable firsthand are conspiring to keep secret.

Is schiavo secretly a nazi too? is it that he wants to murder his wife because her maiden name was schindler perhaps?

Maybe schiavo works in secret for halliburton and helped shoot bombs into the twin towers?

Maybe he is a serial killer and a pederast.

Where do you draw the line with this wild specularion and defamation of character?
Terri's family has testified, in affidavits, that Terri was terrified of Michael Schiavo, and had considered leaving him. A nurse in the hospice where Terri is kept has testifiedm in affidavit, that Michael Schiavo would ask "when is the b___h going to die", and "is she dead yet." The same nurse has testified that in the incident that is the topic of this thread, she found needle marks under Terri's breasts, and in her groin area, and she found an used syringe and insulin in the trashcan of Terri's room after Michael left.

Draw your own conclusions.

Actually it is different then would you suggest. The body in the state it is now, it doesn't last long. An aunt died from terminal cancer. She simply stopped eating and about a week later she was gone.

She won't recover; why not let her go?

The parents will do anything to keep her alive. Even in a deposition the father said he would allow her limbs to be cut off and a heart change to keep her alive. Her one time guardian ad litem said this in an interview.
Oh, and wanting his DAUGHTER to live is such a horrible thing?

I suppose you speak from personal experience...no? Then how in God's green earth can you tell us how "peaceful" and "painless" it would be for Terri Schindler to die of starvation and dehydration? Let's try it on the pigs being held in Guantanamo...oh, wait, the ACLU and Amnesia International would have a field day with that, due to the in-humanity of such a treatment!

Gee, how does "letting her live" sound? Maybe, just maybe, Michael Hitler can do the DECENT thing, and allow her parents to take care of her for as long as they live. But, since he doesn't, and he wants so desperately to kill her (yes, KILL her) and get rid of her body (he wants her cremated immediately after her death, no autopsy, no burial,) how are those of us who err on the side of LIFE, how are we to presume that he has nothing to gain or worse, nothing to hide??

Tell us about it...your lack of concern for a fellow human being and her right to LIFE tells me that you may have plenty of experience living in a soul-less or brain-less body yourself.


Man, I am soooo tired of righty blowhards screaming about how they know what's best for someone they've never met, interacted with, or tried to care for. Why do you insist on meddleing with other people?!? It has been 12 years!!! 12 years in a PERMANENT VEGITATIVE STATE. It will NEVER get better, nor even slightly improve in any way. Why prolong her suffering? This is more about the right-wing's need to control people. The need to force others to bend to their will.

Even an ABC News poll on this issue told of conservativesupport for removing the feeding tube was 54% to 40% in favor. I'd call that a "clear majority", especially among conservatives. What's most surprising though is the support among evangelical christians, 44% to 40% in favor. So, not even there do any arguments hold water.

And then they pull the card of "adultery". This blatently ignores the fact that TERRI'S OWN PARTENTS encouraged him to find another relationship.

"It took Michael a long time to consider the prospect of getting on with his life – something he was actively encouraged to do by the Schindlers, long before enmity tore them apart. He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating."
--From the report of Terri Schiavo's Guradian ad Lidam (who was, btw, appointed by none other than Jebby Shrub himself)

Get on with your life, jackass, and stop telling other poeple how to live their own... Jerk!

Oh, and wanting his DAUGHTER to live is such a horrible thing?

Existing and living are 2 different things. His daughter is gone. There is nothing more then the husk left. She will not return. Nothing wrong with anguish but there comes a time to let go.

An interesting thing a commentator pointed out.

Terri's medical costs were paid by a lawsuit which Bush wants to curtail and medicad which the Repbulicans want to reduce.

Didn't the President sign a law in Texas that allows hospitols to pull lifesupport with 10 days notice?

I think people here should consider quality of life and not just life

I dont really know much about this case so I am not going to comment on specifics but ask yourself this - what quality of life does she have or is she likely to have?

that is what should determine this not the fact that her body is possibly just 'going through the motions' of being alive

I think people here should consider quality of life and not just life

I dont really know much about this case so I am not going to comment on specifics but ask yourself this - what quality of life does she have or is she likely to have?

that is what should determine this not the fact that her body is possibly just 'going through the motions' of being alive


The remnants of the maggot of puritanism that still lives in the brains of many social conservatives makes their reaction against quality of life reflexive.

Wonderful fantastic news for the rule of law, a federal appeals court just decided not to order a feeding apparatus reinserted into terry schiavo's body.

Wonderful fantastic news for the rule of law, a federal appeals court just decided not to order a feeding apparatus reinserted into terry schiavo's body.

Interesting. It seems that "out of control/rogue judge" comments are already being made.

I heard one comment that we need judges who will judge on the basis of morality. We did honey, it was called the inquisition.

So, before you call her parents selfish, ignorant, and cruel, stop...think...how far would your mother go to protect you?

If she goes against my explicit wishes I would call her selfish, ignorant, and cruel. I can understand and even forgive beforehand, but that wouldn't change the fact she would put her desires for my life above mine. Fortunately I have a very clear lifetestament and donorcodicil.

Every court so far seems to agree that letting her die, or if you prefer: to let God decide, is the right thing to do and corresponds to her wishes. They know everything published on certain websites. They in fact know more. With all the media attention this case has making a "rush-judgement" would be suicide - so one assumes they actually did their job thoroughly.

In her place I personally would have preferred a quick death to save my loved ones the sight of me slowly deteriorating (not to mention that I want my organs to stay fresh) - but if due to religious beliefs she preferred the natural course: so be it.

Thank god for the euthanasia law here in the Netherlands. No Bible thumping idiot will make a political prey out of people like that here.

I guess you never seen someone starve to death? I guess you never seen anyone suffering from dehydration? They are not peaceful. It isn't pretty when someone starves to death nor dies of dehydration. I have a thing against Euthenasia! Its assisted suicide.

My grandfather, who was terminally ill with stomach cancer, died in this way. He was given a morphine dip to ease his pain, and his feeding tube was removed.

I watched him die. It was extremely peaceful.

You really, REALLY need to go read some literature. There is a HUGE difference between starvation in a healthy, aware human being and one who is not aware and dying. The misconceptions about the nature of this kind of passing abound, as well as the very poorly-disseminated information about PVS, or Persistive Vegetative State. I've listened to US senators spout of utter nonsense about it, just as I am seeing done here.

People speak of mercy, but mercy and ignorance DON'T go hand-in-hand.

Ge-Ren

I suppose you speak from personal experience...no? Then how in God's green earth can you tell us how "peaceful" and "painless" it would be for Terri Schindler to die of starvation and dehydration?

Yes, I am speaking from personal experience. I've written about it from another post. That is how my terminally-ill grandfather died. Because we do not allow euthanasia in the US, this particular type of death is considered the most humane, and in fact, it's quite humane, especially when the patient is unaware. Terri Schiavo has been unaware for fifteen years.

Gee, how does "letting her live" sound? Maybe, just maybe, Michael Hitler can do the DECENT thing, and allow her parents to take care of her for as long as they live. But, since he doesn't, and he wants so desperately to kill her (yes, KILL her) and get rid of her body (he wants her cremated immediately after her death, no autopsy, no burial,) how are those of us who err on the side of LIFE, how are we to presume that he has nothing to gain or worse, nothing to hide??

She's isn't living. Why do you think Michael waited EIGHT YEARS before starting this process? Everyone talks about how he "suddenly" wanted to make this decision...when in reality, eight years with no change in Terri's condition prompted him to start this process. He didn't "suddenly" say this was Terri's wish to die if she remained unchanged...HE WAITED, but knew full-well what she wanted.

You are not erring on the side of "life" according to our tenets of personal freedom as established by our governmental system. You are erring on the side of personal liberties and political manuvering. The fact that so many of you are ignoring the process of this case and how it is eroding not only Terri and Michael's personal liberty, but your OWN, is staggering.

I am forced to wonder: did one big building and a bunch of people dying in 2001 REALLY cause such fear that suddenly, we let a narrow interpretation of "God's will" be our law...?

Tell us about it...your lack of concern for a fellow human being and her right to LIFE tells me that you may have plenty of experience living in a soul-less or brain-less body yourself.

I have a living will for this purpose. I believe that keping me alive artificially when I have been medically proven incapable of functioning is a crime against my personal wishes for how I want to live my life. I also DO NOT WANT MY GOVERNMENT TELLING ME HOW I SHOULD I LIVE, nor anyone else for that matter.

After watching my grandfather become a "vegetable," I feel quite comfortable saying that life extends beyond a body breathing, and keeping a body alive after such a long time is pointless. Have YOU seen that? If not, shut up and stop telling me about MY morality, which yours ir utterly untested. Just about every person I know who has been witness to this sort of condition in their loved ones eventually chooses to allow their bodies to die.

Ge-Ren

My grandfather, who was terminally ill with stomach cancer, died in this way. He was given a morphine dip to ease his pain, and his feeding tube was removed.

I watched him die. It was extremely peaceful.

You really, REALLY need to go read some literature. There is a HUGE difference between starvation in a healthy, aware human being and one who is not aware and dying. The misconceptions about the nature of this kind of passing abound, as well as the very poorly-disseminated information about PVS, or Persistive Vegetative State. I've listened to US senators spout of utter nonsense about it, just as I am seeing done here.

People speak of mercy, but mercy and ignorance DON'T go hand-in-hand.

Ge-Ren
I cried for this young woman and her family today. No one should have to go through this. That beautiful young woman's skin is turning gray as she dehydrates. If her mother even gave her so much as a sliver of ice to ease her dry mouth, she could be arrested. It's barbaric and inhumane and totally without personal dignity. There are no easy answers to the issues raised by this case, but the reality of it all is depressing as hell.

What people seem to be completely overlooking is that there is no evidence this is what Terri wants. Now, I'm happy to commit my health, wellbeing, and life, to a handful of people, but I would damned well hope that nobody had any say without my express, written consent. This is why it is important to err on the side of life - the fact that letting her die is humane (A flawed argument, if she's so unaware as to justify letting her die, of course.), or that keeping her alive is humane, whatever the case, has no bearing on the fact that we can't just allow people to say "But s/he wanted to be disconnected!" without the person they're talking about having previously permitted it.

Terri's family has testified, in affidavits, that Terri was terrified of Michael Schiavo, and had considered leaving him. A nurse in the hospice where Terri is kept has testifiedm in affidavit, that Michael Schiavo would ask "when is the b___h going to die", and "is she dead yet." The same nurse has testified that in the incident that is the topic of this thread, she found needle marks under Terri's breasts, and in her groin area, and she found an used syringe and insulin in the trashcan of Terri's room after Michael left.

Draw your own conclusions.
Are you working for Fox News? Because that's as biased a post as I've seem in years. You cannot, in good conscience, bring forth a few arguments of only one side and let us draw our own conclusion. You have already drawn our conclusion as you don't show an entire side of the story.

I mean, where is the fact that all the friends said the same thing as the husband as to her wishes? Where is the mention that numerous court cases have sided with Mr. Schiavo? Where is the mention that the nurse's credibility has been put in question? Where is the mention that numerous doctors have given their medical opinion that the tube should be removed? Where is the mention, finally, that it is not the parent's decision anyway as they are not the legal guardian?

Draw your own conclusions my ass... :mad:

What people seem to be completely overlooking is that there is no evidence this is what Terri wants. Now, I'm happy to commit my health, wellbeing, and life, to a handful of people, but I would damned well hope that nobody had any say without my express, written consent. This is why it is important to err on the side of life - the fact that letting her die is humane (A flawed argument, if she's so unaware as to justify letting her die, of course.), or that keeping her alive is humane, whatever the case, has no bearing on the fact that we can't just allow people to say "But s/he wanted to be disconnected!" without the person they're talking about having previously permitted it.
And who are we going to believe?

The parents or
the husband, who's the legal guardian, and the friends who all said that it was her wish to be unplugged?

I think she have made her wished known but the parents just won't admit it.

I think she have made her wished known but the parents just won't admit it.

Unfortunately, there's no evidence in writing from Terri to back that up either.

We're dealing with a situation where the husband says one thing and the parents say another - and we don't have anything at all from the person who's going to die.

ggahsrthhhhhhhpbbbblsarghrghrgh

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~03-23-05-vegetables.gif

ggahsrthhhhhhhpbbbblsarghrghrgh

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~03-23-05-vegetables.gif


ROFLMAO!

:D :D :D :D

[edit] but in a really deranged sort of way

ggahsrthhhhhhhpbbbblsarghrghrgh

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~03-23-05-vegetables.gif

I think it is clear that since you created a nation bearing this poor woman's name to post this, you are fully aware that it is tasteless, cruel, and totally uncalled for. :mad: ...and we call her brain damaged?

Holy shit, new news!

Dr.Finker reports that terry's brain damage was not, in fact, caused by a lack of oxygen to the brain. Suprisingly, he also reports that the damage was not caused by, as some claim, physical trauma (abuse).

Dr. Finker's report states that her lack of cerebral cortex is actually hereditary, and the fact that her thinking brain has been replaced by spinal fluid was inherited from her parents.

I cried for this young woman and her family today. No one should have to go through this. That beautiful young woman's skin is turning gray as she dehydrates. If her mother even gave her so much as a sliver of ice to ease her dry mouth, she could be arrested. It's barbaric and inhumane and totally without personal dignity. There are no easy answers to the issues raised by this case, but the reality of it all is depressing as hell.
To ease her dry mouth? I seriously doubt a braindead person would even notice.

I think it is clear that since you created a nation bearing this poor woman's name to post this, you are fully aware that it is tasteless, cruel, and totally uncalled for. :mad: ...and we call her brain damaged?

I agree. The entire mediacircus surrounding this is bad enough and letting her body die is intended to at least let some of her dignity survive. She may not be a person anymore, but please remember she once was.

the same people who complain about starving to death as a horrible way to die are the same people who get laws passed that don't let the doctors just end it quick and painless.

here are the options:
1) insert tube. watch her body wither up for another decade
2) remove tube. watch her body wither up for a week.
3) inject insulin. heart stops. no pain, no withering.


humane?

i go for 3

too bad you guys made it illegal

And if a Parent believes that they MAY ALL be wrong, and that any chance I may have to be with my child and smile at her as she is smiling at me, and tell her I LOVE HER... If there is even a "slim chance" that she recognizes such things and just isn't able to react, well I would say that it would be a difficult decision to not support her "Life" and simply let her die...

Although I have to admit that a small part of me is saying that even IF she is able to "know these things" that I am not sure she would "want" to continue her Life in this manner.

It is a TERRIBLE THING to HAVE to consider.

There are some very valid points on BOTH sides of the discussion...

But as the President has said... When there is a dispute in such things as Life, we should always err on the Side of Protecting Life.

Regards,
Gaar

What about his right as her next of kin? You can't just make one exception. And yes, what about the sanctity of marriage? It sucks that as a parent you don't have that right, but honestly, YOU DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT. That's how it works, and if your legal rights were being disputed and you were the spouse, and your in-laws opposed you and took you to court, you would be invoking your rights to high heaven.

Yeah, you're right...

After all, the Right to LIFE is such a trivial thing. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Gaar

The right to live as a corpse is actually not a God-given right, because such a person would by no means live in nature. It's your PRIVELEGE to live like that, because of modern medicine. I would say living as a corpse, with no mind, is against nature and God. The soul is clearly trying to pass on, and it's extremely selfish to keep Terry stuck in a perpetual state of nothing just for selfish reasons. If they really loved her, they'd let her soul pass on. Look at the polls. Most Americans are extremely conservative, and typically agree with the government's stance. This time they don't. They just aren't irrational and militant like the vocal minority advocating Terry Shiavo's case. These people who want her to live typically don't even know the details. I am so disturbed by the amount of people who believe that she is just retarded, instead of the fact that there is NO brain activity except for her brain stem which keeps her alive, with no personality, no thoughts, no feelings.

Terri Schindler reacts to her family and friends...she even reacts to her killer. The nurse who took care of Terri for over a year will testify (although the judge in the case won't allow her due to M Schiavo's protestations,) that Terri made attempts to speak, and had violent reactions to seeing her killer...that doesn't sound like a body without a mind to me.

Those are spasms. You can't take the word of dillusional people over trained physicians who have nothing to gain from the case. And, you are racist. Panhandlia....frickin Redneck Riviera.

How stupid can you be?

She responds with fear in her eyes and body jerking when the bad-excuse-for-a -husband walks in.
She responds with tears in her eyes and a of joy on her face when her parents walk in.

Oh yeah... that sounds totally involuntary to me! :rolleyes:

There are so many things behind the scenes that have happened that no one has a clue about. This man just wants to kill her because he has more to gain than letting her live. He is a scumbag.

There are so many things behind the scenes that have happened that no one has a clue about.

You seem to know them though.. maybe you should have told the courts ? It did take them a few years to make this decision after all. Plenty of time to share your knowledge. Bit silly they and all the docters involved didn't notice those eye expressions themselves.. but then again: they say justice is blind.

And yes, this post was sarcastic.

How stupid can you be?

She responds with fear in her eyes and body jerking when the bad-excuse-for-a -husband walks in.
She responds with tears in her eyes and a of joy on her face when her parents walk in.

Oh yeah... that sounds totally involuntary to me! :rolleyes:

There are so many things behind the scenes that have happened that no one has a clue about. This man just wants to kill her because he has more to gain than letting her live. He is a scumbag.

If no one has clue to what is going on how come you know? Cristal ball? God told you?

How stupid can you be?

She responds with fear in her eyes and body jerking when the bad-excuse-for-a -husband walks in.
She responds with tears in her eyes and a of joy on her face when her parents walk in.

Oh yeah... that sounds totally involuntary to me! :rolleyes:

There are so many things behind the scenes that have happened that no one has a clue about. This man just wants to kill her because he has more to gain than letting her live. He is a scumbag.
Care to enlighten us as to what the court have never taken into consideration?

Judge not lest ye be judged. Especially since you seem to have only heard one side of the story.

How stupid can you be?

She responds with fear in her eyes and body jerking when the bad-excuse-for-a -husband walks in.
She responds with tears in her eyes and a of joy on her face when her parents walk in.

Oh yeah... that sounds totally involuntary to me! :rolleyes:

There are so many things behind the scenes that have happened that no one has a clue about. This man just wants to kill her because he has more to gain than letting her live. He is a scumbag.

Stop the insulting. You are not a neurologist. You know nothing of the subject. I trust the vast majority of neurologists in the U.S. before I trust dillusional relatives who imagine things.

here are the options:
1) insert tube. watch her body wither up for another decade
2) remove tube. watch her body wither up for a week.
3) inject insulin. heart stops. no pain, no withering.

humane?

i go for 3


I'm kinder to my dogs when they are suffering at the end of their lives.
And no, I don't use an injection, either.

I'm kinder to my dogs when they are suffering at the end of their lives.
And no, I don't use an injection, either.

Don't advocate something for your dog you wouldn't advocate for a human. Which is what you implied with that statement. Dogs are dogs, and humans are humans, however, they can feel equal pain. In fact, any normal dog would feel more pain than Terry Shiavo is capable of, because she can't feel any at all. That part of her brain, you know, the CEREBRAL CORTEX (or do you know?), the part that makes you who you are, gives your a personality, stores memory, controls sensory functions, DOESN'T EXIST. She can't think or feel any kind of pain.

Don't advocate something for your dog you wouldn't advocate for a human. Which is what you implied with that statement. Dogs are dogs, and humans are humans, however, they can feel equal pain. In fact, any normal dog would feel more pain than Terry Shiavo is capable of, because she can't feel any at all. That part of her brain, you know, the CEREBRAL CORTEX (or do you know?), the part that makes you who you are, gives your a personality, stores memory, controls sensory functions, DOESN'T EXIST. She can't think or feel any kind of pain.

I take my terminally ill dogs for a last walk (actually, I carry them out to where I hunt with them), and shoot them.

I take my terminally ill dogs for a last walk (actually, I carry them out to where I hunt with them), and shoot them.

Yeah, cuz everyone knows that's not painful at all.

My grandfather, who was terminally ill with stomach cancer, died in this way. He was given a morphine dip to ease his pain, and his feeding tube was removed.

I watched him die. It was extremely peaceful.

Was he conscience at the time?

You really, REALLY need to go read some literature. There is a HUGE difference between starvation in a healthy, aware human being and one who is not aware and dying. The misconceptions about the nature of this kind of passing abound, as well as the very poorly-disseminated information about PVS, or Persistive Vegetative State. I've listened to US senators spout of utter nonsense about it, just as I am seeing done here.

Here's the problem though. Short of being severly brain damaged, she is somewhat healthy. The only thing she needs is that feeding tube to stay alive. That's it!

People speak of mercy, but mercy and ignorance DON'T go hand-in-hand.

I will agree with you here.

I cried for this young woman and her family today. No one should have to go through this. That beautiful young woman's skin is turning gray as she dehydrates. If her mother even gave her so much as a sliver of ice to ease her dry mouth, she could be arrested. It's barbaric and inhumane and totally without personal dignity. There are no easy answers to the issues raised by this case, but the reality of it all is depressing as hell.

I agree 100% Eutrusca. Even I am tearing up over this. This is very depressing and my heart goes out to the parents and siblings of this poor girl.

Yeah, cuz everyone knows that's not painful at all.

It's less painful than dying of insulin shock. And far quicker.

To ease her dry mouth? I seriously doubt a braindead person would even notice.

SHE'S BRAIN-DAMAGED!

I wish people get the damn facts straight.

I take my terminally ill dogs for a last walk (actually, I carry them out to where I hunt with them), and shoot them.
When my parent's cat got sick (it was 19 and had a huge recurring abcess in hismouth so it couldn't eat) they took it to the vet and the vet put him down in a humane way. What do you know, they didn't have to splatter the poor thing's brains all over the place and he died peacefully.

When my parent's cat got sick (it was 19 and had a huge recurring abcess in hismouth so it couldn't eat) they took it to the vet and the vet put him down in a humane way. What do you know, they didn't have to splatter the poor thing's brains all over the place and he died peacefully.

My parents did the samething with our cat when she went downhill from kidney failure. It was very difficult on my mom because that was her companion when dad was overseas and me here at the university.

When my parent's cat got sick (it was 19 and had a huge recurring abcess in hismouth so it couldn't eat) they took it to the vet and the vet put him down in a humane way. What do you know, they didn't have to splatter the poor thing's brains all over the place and he died peacefully.

My dogs have always been frightened at the vet's office. They like going out to the fields where they have hunted before. Their brains don't go all over the place. It's quick. They don't see it coming. And they die in a place where they have been happy - not frightened.

I agree 100% Eutrusca. Even I am tearing up over this. This is very depressing and my heart goes out to the parents and siblings of this poor girl.
A week after she's dead you won't give a shit, you know.

Look, much worse things are going on in the world. People die deaths much more horrific than this woman will. Hell, what about the thousands of children who die of starvation every single day? They actually have functioning brains at the time too. Why not raise a fuss and try to do something about them rather than focus on this one woman who is going through something that thousands like her go through with no problem... legal guardians and next of kin pull the plug on loved ones all the time when there is no chance of recovery.

My dogs have always been frightened at the vet's office. They like going out to the fields where they have hunted before. Their brains don't go all over the place. It's quick. They don't see it coming. And they die in a place where they have been happy - not frightened.

And sometimes that is for the best. Dying in a place where your happy is preferable than dying in a place where you aren't happy.

My dogs have always been frightened at the vet's office. They like going out to the fields where they have hunted before. Their brains don't go all over the place. It's quick. They don't see it coming. And they die in a place where they have been happy - not frightened.
My cats are usually fine in the vet's office so long as there aren't any big dogs around.

Acually, my old dog loved the vet's office. She didn't get put down though, she had surgery and all sorts of things because she was sick and then she had a heart attack in my mom's arms while she was still at the vet's for observation.

It's less painful than dying of insulin shock. And far quicker.

Yeah, ok. So when your relative is dying, shoot them too.

Yeah, ok. So when your relative is dying, shoot them too.
If I was terminally ill, and asked to die, I'd rather be shot.

That "culture of life" that Bush talks about is total garbage.

The bankruptcy bill that Bush supports will make it nearly impossible for families of someone with an illness like Terri Schiavo's to ever get back on their feet. This is an opportunity to pay back the big health care companies that gave Bush and the Republicans a lot of money in past elections..

Tort reform, which Bush supports, would have made it impossible for Terri Schiavo's husband to sue for malpractice and thus to pay for her care. Of course, this is also to pay back a rich donor class, this time big insurance.

And worst of all, when Bush was governor of Texas he signed a law that lets hospitals remove life support if the patient cannot pay and there is no hope for survival - even if it is against the family's wishes. On March 16 of this year, a six-month-old baby was removed from a respirator to die against his mother's wishes in a Texas hospital. By signing that bill, Bush essentially killed that baby so that the hospitals would not lose money by caring for him. And if Terri Shiavo were in Texas and her family did not have the malpractice suit money, she would already be dead, and her family would have had no recourse.

Apparently the "culture of life" only applies when it doesn't cost Republicans too much cash.

A week after she's dead you won't give a shit, you know.

Look, much worse things are going on in the world. People die deaths much more horrific than this woman will. Hell, what about the thousands of children who die of starvation every single day? They actually have functioning brains at the time too. Why not raise a fuss and try to do something about them rather than focus on this one woman who is going through something that thousands like her go through with no problem... legal guardians and next of kin pull the plug on loved ones all the time when there is no chance of recovery.

That's another thing. With all the government money going into this case, like the money sent summoning people to Congress, etc. we could have saved thousands of starving children who would otherwise grow up and contribute to society. This woman is being starved so she can die, because she is just a body. We don't we save people who have a chance at life?

SHE'S BRAIN-DAMAGED!

I wish people get the damn facts straight.

She isn't brain dead, simply because her BRAIN STEM works. The part that keeps your body working. However, she has no MIND. She is a corpse whose organs work. Her personality, her consciousness, her senses are all gone. Terry Shiavo the person no longer exists. Her body is simply there.

I see it as a waste of medical resources. She isn't coming back up. She isn't going to hop off of the bed and be all "HAY GUYS WASN'T THAT AWESOME, LET'S GO GET SOME SODAS" because her cerebral cortex is destroyed. Do you guys know what the Cerebral Cortex controls?

http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcortex.htm

Motor function. She's never getting out of bed.

Intelligence. She's never going to talk again. Even if she does, it's going to be a gurgle or some other sickening nastiness because she doesn't know what words are. Even then that's improbable because she has no motor function.

Interpretation of Sensory Impulses Umm, to use a catchphrase, "she doesn't know wtf" because she cannot interpret sensory impulses. She doesn't know if that's a nurse or Azrael coming through the door. This BS about her 'knowing' when the 'killer' (bahaha) coming through the door is complete and utter rubbish. I know you guys are down with God and everything, but science has come a long way with talling us that when a part of the brain is missing, those functions provided by that section are no longer going to be present.

Personality. Even in the off chance she does manage those above three, she still isn't going to be Terry Schiavo.

ggahsrthhhhhhhpbbbblsarghrghrgh

http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~03-23-05-vegetables.gif


Kinda tasteless, but I laughed.

If I was terminally ill, and asked to die, I'd rather be shot.

Yes, because you don't know the possible repucussions. A doctor friend of mine was doing his residency when a man who attempted suicide survived. He shot himself, in the supposed death-guarentee type of manner, with the gun in his mouth. His face was blown off, and the bullet didn't kill him. He now lives, forever trapped in his own mind, unable to communicate with the world, blind, and deaf. However, he is still conscious. Terry Shiavo isn't. Her cerebral cortex died, and broke down into spinal fluid. She is nothing but a living corpse.

Regardless of all the heresay and facts of this case, I would like to know one thing: Where are all of the people who are so outraged about the "injustices" done in Iraq (the prison scandal, etc.), those who line up to protest a convicted criminal being put to death, those who are outraged by fishing, hunting, etc.
Where is the ACLU?

Unbelievable...

I'd like to know where are the people who are always prattling on and on about "getting government out of the people's lives" and other such nonsense?

Luckily, Neal Boortz finally remembered he was a libertarian:

Wednesday -- March 23, 2005

TIME TO LET HER GO

Let's add things up.* Nineteen Florida State Judges, the Florida Legislature, the Congress of the United States, one Federal District Court judge, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, three trips to the U.S. Supreme Court ... all leading to the same result.* Terri Schiavo's wishes should be honored and her body should not be kept functioning through extraordinary means long after the soul who was Terri Schiavo died.* This should be the end of it.* Terri should be allowed to pass on.* Her life was over 15 years ago, all that has remained is core body functions.*

This same scenario is taking place in many places other than Pinellas County, Florida today.* Feeding tubes are being withdrawn, hydration is being withheld and ventilators are being turned off.* The big difference is that in most cases the families of the dying understand the nature of their loved ones condition and are not operating under some delusion that their family member might one day hop out of their hospital bed and ask to be taken to the mall.* You're known by the company you keep.* Randall Terry is the principal spokesman for Terri's parents.* They, and their daughter, have been figuratively abducted by the anti-abortion so-called "right to life" crowd.* They just can't see that they're being used to further an agenda completely apart from the fate of Terri Schiavo.* Fortunately, the courts can.

The hate mail keeps pouring in.* So what else is new.* We'll share some with you on the air today.

She isn't brain dead, simply because her BRAIN STEM works. The part that keeps your body working. However, she has no MIND. She is a corpse whose organs work. Her personality, her consciousness, her senses are all gone. Terry Shiavo the person no longer exists. Her body is simply there.

Hmm, her sense of hearing and sight are there. She has tried to talk so that is there. Hmmm, outside of tasting since she can't swallow, what other senses are gone?

Hearing, sight, touch is still there.

Hmm, her sense of hearing and sight are there. She has tried to talk so that is there. Hmmm, outside of tasting since she can't swallow, what other senses are gone?

Hearing, sight, touch is still there.


sure, her eyes work just fine.

the problem is: they're not plugged into anything on the other side.

it's like taking a blowtorch to your CPU. the webcam and microphone still work, but there's nothing left for them to send signals to.

Yes, because you don't know the possible repucussions. A doctor friend of mine was doing his residency when a man who attempted suicide survived. He shot himself, in the supposed death-guarentee type of manner, with the gun in his mouth. His face was blown off, and the bullet didn't kill him. He now lives, forever trapped in his own mind, unable to communicate with the world, blind, and deaf. However, he is still conscious. Terry Shiavo isn't. Her cerebral cortex died, and broke down into spinal fluid. She is nothing but a living corpse.

If you know how to do it, it works.

If I put it to the back of the target's head, and aim up from the neck so that the angle of the bullet path takes it through the medulla and up through the brain and out through the forebrain, it's mercifully quick.

It works. Just don't try it yourself. That's why someone has to do it for you.

Hmm, her sense of hearing and sight are there. She has tried to talk so that is there. Hmmm, outside of tasting since she can't swallow, what other senses are gone?

Hearing, sight, touch is still there.

Source for this statement ? If what I heard about the courts research is correct her responses are not reproducible. Appearing to follow a Mickey Mouse balloon e.g. can indicate a remnant of senses - but not if it only happened once in many, many tests and if she displays identical facial exxpressions if there is no balloon.

Of course, I am just going by second hand information and the assumption that people that have spent lots of time researching her did their job here. The information could be wrong.

Source for this statement ? If what I heard about the courts research is correct her responses are not reproducible. Appearing to follow a Mickey Mouse balloon e.g. can indicate a remnant of senses - but not if it only happened once in many, many tests and if she displays identical facial exxpressions if there is no balloon.

Of course, I am just going by second hand information and the assumption that people that have spent lots of time researching her did their job here. The information could be wrong.

The video clip that's constantly shown on TV of the balloon thing is from years ago. It's not recent.

Kinda tasteless, but I laughed.

Sometimes tasteless is the best form of humor. Anything that equally offends and delights is ok by me. *thumbs up*

The video clip that's constantly shown on TV of the balloon thing is from years ago. It's not recent.

I know. I am just getting a tad bit annoyed at the number of people that have suddenly decided to delurk, make 1 post in this topic containing very strong claims without supporting evidence, and then disappear.

Maybe the courts have made a mistake. But since they have just spent several years on this I need better arguments than "everybody knows that", "it is so that" or "this website says so" to be convinced.

I know. I am just getting a tad bit annoyed at the number of people that have suddenly decided to delurk, make 1 post in this topic making very strong claimswithout supporting evidence, and then disappear.

Maybe the courts have made a mistake. But since they have just spent several years on this I need better arguments than "this website says so" to be convinced.

Without access to all the briefs filed in this case, I'm not sure how any of us can say we know what was previously examined or what condition she's actually in.

One problem I have with providing links as evidence is that there's far more evidence in the world, in terms of real evidence, depositions, and even regular books, than there is on the Internet. And most of that real world evidence is held to a real standard. Most information on the Internet is not.

That "culture of life" that Bush talks about is total garbage.

The bankruptcy bill that Bush supports will make it nearly impossible for families of someone with an illness like Terri Schiavo's to ever get back on their feet. This is an opportunity to pay back the big health care companies that gave Bush and the Republicans a lot of money in past elections..

Tort reform, which Bush supports, would have made it impossible for Terri Schiavo's husband to sue for malpractice and thus to pay for her care. Of course, this is also to pay back a rich donor class, this time big insurance.

And worst of all, when Bush was governor of Texas he signed a law that lets hospitals remove life support if the patient cannot pay and there is no hope for survival - even if it is against the family's wishes. On March 16 of this year, a six-month-old baby was removed from a respirator to die against his mother's wishes in a Texas hospital. By signing that bill, Bush essentially killed that baby so that the hospitals would not lose money by caring for him. And if Terri Shiavo were in Texas and her family did not have the malpractice suit money, she would already be dead, and her family would have had no recourse.

Apparently the "culture of life" only applies when it doesn't cost Republicans too much cash.


And the winner is.. the guy with too man a's in his name

Hell, what about the thousands of children who die of starvation every single day? They actually have functioning brains at the time too. Why not raise a fuss and try to do something about them rather than focus on this one woman who is going through something that thousands like her go through with no problem... legal guardians and next of kin pull the plug on loved ones all the time when there is no chance of recovery.

because:
a) most of those children have brown skin
and
b) they aren't on cnn

sad but fucking true.

One problem I have with providing links as evidence is that there's far more evidence in the world, in terms of real evidence, depositions, and even regular books, than there is on the Internet. And most of that real world evidence is held to a real standard. Most information on the Internet is not.

Fully agreed - though I tend to somewhat trust some articles (those on the university website of professors, or in the britannica for instance). But there is a big difference between saying "it is not on the net", and "it is not on the net, but found in [insert names of literature, peer reviewed journals or whatever you use as source here]".

Holy shit, new news!

Linky please.....

The video clip that's constantly shown on TV of the balloon thing is from years ago. It's not recent.
Yes, and it's out of how many hundreds of hours of video footage?
I view it as akin to th the infinite monkeys/infinite typewriters allegory. Wait long enough and something's bound to happen that will look like what you were searching for.

Yes, and it's out of how many hundreds of hours of video footage?
I view it as akin to th the infinite monkeys/infinite typewriters allegory. Wait long enough and something's bound to happen that will look like what you were searching for.

I haven't seen any recent footage at all. While she may have been reacting way back then, there isn't any proof shown on television that she's reacting now.

Something simple would do.

There's a strange arguement happening between conservatives and liberals regarding death.

Conservatives seem to be OK with death at the hands of military might (so long as it's ours/our allies... or in the name of freedom), at the hands of the state (punishing criminals).
Liberals seem to be OK with death as a pre-birth choice (where the unborn doesn't get a say), or euthenasia (where someone really wants to die).

On the surface it seems both groups are very pro-death, just can't come to a consensus on the terms.
Good way of putting it:
Liberals are for death at the start and at the end.
Conservatives are for death everywhere in the middle between these two.

Simple really.

Good way of putting it:
Liberals are for death at the start and at the end.
Conservatives are for death everywhere in the middle between these two.

Simple really.
I'm a conservative.
I'm pro-choice.
I'm pro-death penalty.
I'm pro-euthanasia (like the Oregon law).
I'm against assassination, but I'm for war.

I don't seem to fit the mold.

One thing that I don't understand about all this especially regarding the religious zeal that it's causing, is if they do reinsert the tube is there going to be an improvement in anyone's quality of life?
Simple answer, is that no, there won't. Terri isn't going to be better off, her husband won't be, her parents won't be, the US taxpayer won't be.

For all the religious zealots out there yelling and screaming, none of them have bothered to look any further than 'saving a life' argument and actually considered what good, if any, it would do to save that life. I can't see any good in continuing her life.

I'm a conservative.
I'm pro-choice.
I'm pro-death penalty.
I'm pro-euthanasia (like the Oregon law).
I'm against assassination, but I'm for war.

I don't seem to fit the mold.
But you don't fit any mold, except the one Smith & Wesson use to make their 0.357 ;)

How stupid can you be?

She responds with fear in her eyes and body jerking when the bad-excuse-for-a -husband walks in.
She responds with tears in her eyes and a of joy on her face when her parents walk in.

Oh yeah... that sounds totally involuntary to me! :rolleyes:

There are so many things behind the scenes that have happened that no one has a clue about. This man just wants to kill her because he has more to gain than letting her live. He is a scumbag.

Dr. *of course I forgot his name* Professor of Neurology at Dartmouth and was part of the team that coined the term Perminante Vegitative State was asked is there a valid test. And he said yes and described as basically you bombard the person's senses and watch for signs of awareness. Reflex and random actions do not count as awarness

Her guardian ad litem reported she is indeed a PVS. The video he said is distrubing because it suggests she she is aware but he felt she was not. He would talk to her and sometimes she would turn her head. He would call to her from the doorway and she would not. She would make a noise and turn her head. She showed the clasic signs for PVS.

One thing that I don't understand about all this especially regarding the religious zeal that it's causing, is if they do reinsert the tube is there going to be an improvement in anyone's quality of life?
Simple answer, is that no, there won't. Terri isn't going to be better off, her husband won't be, her parents won't be, the US taxpayer won't be.

For all the religious zealots out there yelling and screaming, none of them have bothered to look any further than 'saving a life' argument and actually considered what good, if any, it would do to save that life. I can't see any good in continuing her life.

I'm a religious zealot. I'm not clamoring for her life. I wouldn't mind if her husband gave her over to her parents, though - but not for any pro-life reasons. Just to make them happy, because I feel that Terri wouldn't know the difference at this point.

But it's moot - the courts have obviously discussed it for years, and we're not privy to all the evidence, so what do we know?

SHE'S BRAIN-DAMAGED!

I wish people get the damn facts straight.


Well technically you are right. However, that term implies she is aware and there is hope she could recover.

To correctly describe her situation is to say she is in a permanent vegitative state.

Much like Elian Gonzales (also in Florida go figure,) Terry Schindler Schiavo has been cast in the unenviable role of Political Football. As long as a group of people stand to gain publicity and voter support by carrying and passing around said Political Football, there will be no rest for this dear departed woman.

That body is no longer Terry Schiavo. It's everything a zombie is minus a sudden hunger for human brains. Let the poor woman's body rest.

Hmm, her sense of hearing and sight are there. She has tried to talk so that is there. Hmmm, outside of tasting since she can't swallow, what other senses are gone?

Hearing, sight, touch is still there.

Reflexive actions do not denote awareness.

He would be able to marry his girlfriend if she was dead.

Oh, and she is no vegtable. She smiles, she talks to her parents, she laughs at little jokes or at funny noises, she knows a few words...

She is a living human person with a divinely given soul, and she should not be murdered.

As for "better off," what do you mean?
Do you mean more comfortable?

But does that matter? The affects she has on this world are good!
She is happy, and her trajedy has brought many closer to Christ, and many more aware of the flagrant threats to human life our culture promotes.

Last, her life is a gift from God, and no one else has a right to take it.

She is a living human person with a divinely given soul, and she should not be murdered.

You had at the best an easibly counterable argument at this point, but then you said that and I stopped reading. You cannot sit around ruling basd in religion

Oh, and she is no vegtable. She smiles, she talks to her parents, she laughs at little jokes or at funny noises, she knows a few words...

IF there was proof of that, the court and the doctors would have noted it and decided to keep her alive. Evidently, there's no objective evidence for what you claim.

She is a living human person with a divinely given soul, and she should not be murdered.
Does a man drowning in the middle of the ocean have a "right to life"?

But does that matter? The affects she has on this world are good!
She is happy, and her trajedy has brought many closer to Christ, and many more aware of the flagrant threats to human life our culture promotes.

Speaking as someone who is "close to Christ" I can assure you that watching a half-dead woman on television doesn't inspire anything in me. It's better if you go out in the world, get off your television-watching ass, and go help someone who has a chance to live in this world. Teach children something. Help convicted felons. Help victims of domestic violence. If you think the culture sucks, it's because you didn't get off your ass.

Last, her life is a gift from God, and no one else has a right to take it.
Sorry, I've seen too much of the world to know that whether or not a life is taken has little to do with who gave it or who has a right to take it.

He would be able to marry his girlfriend if she was dead.

I am guessing you mean in the Catholic sense(as in divorsed people can't remarry in the Chruch?). Doubt that is the issue here. If that was the case he would have taken the money from the parents signed a divorse and ran.


Oh, and she is no vegtable. She smiles, she talks to her parents, she laughs at little jokes or at funny noises, she knows a few words...

Actually no. The video does not prove it. Others have gone in and said there is nothing to suggest she is aware. Her Guardian ad litem says she is in a PVS.


She is a living human person with a divinely given soul, and she should not be murdered.

The body is alive but the awarness of her life is gone. The part of the brain that made her what she was is gone. She exists; she does not live.


As for "better off," what do you mean?
Do you mean more comfortable?

Usually the people mean heaven. Don't you think that is better then this existence?


But does that matter? The affects she has on this world are good!
She is happy, and her trajedy has brought many closer to Christ, and many more aware of the flagrant threats to human life our culture promotes.

Last, her life is a gift from God, and no one else has a right to take it.
Actually many people are starting to get living wills which is a good thing.

As to God? I would hope he does expect you to live in perminant vegitative state. Sounds like punishment to me.

You had at the best an easibly counterable argument at this point, but then you said that and I stopped reading. You cannot sit around ruling basd in religion

Sure you can! It was already done. We called it the Inquisition! ;)

And the law does the right thing...

"In a 2-1 ruling early Wednesday, a panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta said the parents "failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims" that Terri's feeding tube should be reinserted immediately.

"There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo," the ruling said. "We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law." In his dissent, Judge Charles R. Wilson said Schiavo's "imminent" death would end the case before it could be fully considered. "In fact, I fail to see any harm in reinserting the feeding tube," he wrote.

. . . Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, said Wednesday that the couple will appeal to the Supreme Court. "The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," he said.

Howard Simon of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida praised Wednesday's ruling. "It's naive to ever say this may be over, but the U.S. Supreme Court has declined to get into this case (before) and it may be the ruling that came out this morning that may finally be the end of this case," Simon said."

(taken from a DailyKos quote of the story)

Sure you can! It was already done. We called it the Inquisition! ;)
-off topic-
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

-off topic-
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

He would be able to marry his girlfriend if she was dead.

The year is 2005. Getting a divorce is easy.

Last, her life is a gift from God, and no one else has a right to take it.

And why, pray tell, do they have the right to artificially extend her life even though the Lord is calling her ?
The courts are not proposing to take her life away. That would be shooting a bullet in her head or giving a lethal injection. They are just removing the feeding tube - leaving the life or death decision up to God.

I cried for this young woman and her family today. No one should have to go through this. That beautiful young woman's skin is turning gray as she dehydrates. If her mother even gave her so much as a sliver of ice to ease her dry mouth, she could be arrested. It's barbaric and inhumane and totally without personal dignity. There are no easy answers to the issues raised by this case, but the reality of it all is depressing as hell.

She doesn't look so beautiful to me, lying there essentially lifeless for 15 years.

If it depresses you so much to see her suffer...then support euthanasia.

Ge-Ren

Stop the insulting. You are not a neurologist. You know nothing of the subject. I trust the vast majority of neurologists in the U.S. before I trust dillusional relatives who imagine things.

I must apologize. Insulting anyone is not my goal or usual behavior.
This thing has me all upset. You all have asked me to provide where I have gotten my crazy notions from.
I lost the original links, but found these while surfing today....
Feel free to follow them if you like, if not that is fine too.

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/03/former_nurse_re.php

http://www.operationrescue.org/schiavo/

http://www.terrisfight.net/

http://www.blogsforterri.com/archives/2005/02/a_few_facts_abo.php

http://www.blogsforterri.com/video.php

Please know the only reason I call Mr. Schiavo a scumbag is because of him being a hyprocrite.
He professed that Terri was the love of his life (so his lawyer says).
And yet, while he is married, he lives with, has sex with, and children with another woman. That, is not true love.
He has been with the other woman for 10 years. Which means, only two years after Terri's hospitalization, he moved on with his life.
And you know... in today's society, that may be okay, but it doesn't make it right.
In all reality, he should have given guardianship to the parents, gotten a divorce and then moved on with his life.
Saying he loves her and cares for her and doing all he has done, is hypocritical. At least be honest and be done with it.

He received 1.2 million dollars for malpractice against Terri.
He was obligated by the judges to use that to pay for Terri's medical expenses. He has used more than half for himself and HIS lawyers.

All Terri's parents wanted was custody/guardianship for their daughter. So they could care for her and love her.
Mr. Schiavo refused that and refused them visitation of their daughter.
Unfortunately, all we have is his word that she wanted to be "put to sleep".

She is alive, they are starving her, that is murder.

And you guys are absolutely right, I should not judge him.
If he has done wrong, in the eyes of God, he will have to stand in judgement for that.

lol!

your sources are laughable, at best.

it's like looking for facts about evolution on bible.com

How does he stand to gain from her death?
He doesn't. Some have tried to say he wants to pocket the 250,000 dollars they got in a malpractice settlement, but much of that money is gone, and when Terri's parents offered him the money in exchange for giving them power of attourney over Terri he refused.

He doesn't. Some have tried to say he wants to pocket the 250,000 dollars they got in a malpractice settlement, but much of that money is gone, and when Terri's parents offered him the money in exchange for giving them power of attourney over Terri he refused.

He recently turned down one million dollars to give up legal guardianship of terry schiavo.

I know that people really hate facts or law in these forums because they get in the way of uninformed opinions.

Nonetheless, I'm really sick of those who think they know what is best for a complete stranger, Terri Schiavo, based on rumor, innuendo, and libel.

Here are some facts:

1. Ms. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

2. Ms. Schiavo would wish to die under these circumstances.

3. Ms. Schiavo is not being allowed to die merely because her husband wishes it or because he is her guardain. She is being allowed to die because that would be her wishes.

4. Ms. Schiavo's parents have gotten an extraordinary amount of judicial review of facts #1 & #2. Federal and state courts have reviewed this case multiple times over 7 years. All have agreed that points #1 & #2 were established by clear and convincing evidence.

As many will resist these facts, I'll repeat a post I made in another thread:

The following consists of excerpts from the opinion of the Florida Supreme Court (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/flsct92304opn.pdf) on Sept. 23, 2004 (with my edits in brackets):

In May of 1998, eight years after Theresa lost consciousness, Michael petitioned the guardianship court to authorize the termination of life-prolonging procedures. By filing this petition, which the Schindlers opposed, Michael placed the difficult decision in the hands of the court.

After a trial, at which both Michael and the Schindlers presented evidence, the guardianship court issued an extensive written order authorizing the discontinuance of artificial life support. The trial court found by clear and convincing evidence that Theresa Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and that Theresa would elect to cease life-prolonging procedures if she were competent to make her own decision. This order was affirmed on direct appeal, see Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 177.

...

The severity of Theresa’s medical condition was explained by the Second
District as follows:
The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid.

Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true
miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an
unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her
and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for
many years.

In affirming the trial court’s order, the Second
District concluded by stating:
In the final analysis, the difficult question that faced the trial court was whether Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, not after a few weeks in a coma, but after ten years in a persistent vegetative state that has robbed her of most of her cerebrum and all but the most instinctive of neurological functions, with no hope of a medical cure but with sufficient money and strength of body to live indefinitely, would choose to continue the constant nursing care and the supporting tubes in hopes that a miracle would somehow recreate her missing brain tissue, or whether she would wish to permit a natural death process to take its course and for her family members and loved ones to be free to continue their lives. After due consideration, we
conclude that the trial judge had clear and convincing evidence to answer this question as he did.
Schiavo I, 780 So. 2d at 180.

[Although the guardianship court’s final order authorizing the termination of
life-prolonging procedures was affirmed on direct appeal, the litigation continued because the Schindlers began an attack on the final order. After several court and appellate decisions against the Schindlers, they were granted a new hearing.]

The Second District permitted the Schindlers to present evidence to establish by a preponderance of the evidence that the judgment was no longer equitable and specifically held:
To meet this burden, they must establish that new treatment offers sufficient promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo’s cerebral cortex—significantly improving the quality of Mrs. Schiavo’s life—so that she herself would elect to undergo this treatment and would reverse the prior decision to withdraw life-prolonging procedures.
Id.

The Second District required an additional set of medical examinations of Theresa and instructed that one of the physicians must be a new, independent physician selected either by the agreement of the parties or, if they could not agree, by the appointment of the guardianship court. See id. at 646.

After conducting a hearing for the purpose set forth in the Second District’s
decision, the guardianship court denied the Schindlers’ motion for relief from
judgment. See In re Guardianship of Schiavo, 851 So. 2d 182, 183 (Fla. 2d DCA 2003) (Schiavo IV). In reviewing the trial court’s order, the Second District explained that it was “not reviewing a final judgment in this appellate proceeding. The final judgment was entered several years ago and has already been affirmed by this court.” Id. at 185-86. However, the Second District carefully examined the record:
Despite our decision that the appropriate standard of review is
abuse of discretion, this court has closely examined all of the evidence
in this record. We have repeatedly examined the videotapes, not
merely watching short segments but carefully observing the tapes in
their entirety. We have examined the brain scans with the eyes of
educated laypersons and considered the explanations provided by the
doctors in the transcripts. We have concluded that, if we were called
upon to review the guardianship court’s decision de novo, we would
still affirm it.
Id. at 186.

Finally, the Second District concluded its fourth opinion in the Schiavo case with the following observation:

The judges on this panel are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law. Each of us, however, has our own family, our own loved ones, our own children. From our review of the videotapes of Mrs. Schiavo, despite the irrefutable evidence that her cerebral cortex has sustained the most severe of irreparable injuries, we understand why a parent who had raised and nurtured a child from conception would hold out hope that some level of cognitive function remained. If Mrs. Schiavo were our own daughter, we could not but hold to such a faith.

But in the end, this case is not about the aspirations that loving parents have for their children. It is about Theresa Schiavo’s right to make her own decision, independent of her parents and independent of her husband. . . . It may be unfortunate that when families cannot agree, the best forum we can offer for this private, personal decision is a public courtroom and the best decision-maker we can provide is a judge with no prior knowledge of the ward, but the law currently provides no better solution that adequately protects the interests of promoting the value of life. We have previously affirmed the guardianship court’s decision in this regard, and we now affirm the denial of a motion for relief from that judgment.

...

Theresa’s nutrition and hydration tube was removed on October 15, 2003.
On October 21, 2003, the Legislature enacted chapter 2003-418, the
Governor signed the Act into law, and the Governor issued executive order No. 03-201 to stay the continued withholding of nutrition and hydration from Theresa. The nutrition and hydration tube was reinserted pursuant to the Governor’s executive order.

On the same day, Michael Schiavo brought the action for declaratory judgment in the circuit court. Relying on undisputed facts and legal argument, the circuit court entered a final summary judgment on May 6, 2004, in favor of Michael Schiavo, finding the Act unconstitutional both on its face and as applied to Theresa. Specifically, the circuit court found that chapter 2003-418 was unconstitutional on its face as an unlawful delegation of legislative authority and as a violation of the right to privacy, and unconstitutional as applied because it allowed the Governor to encroach upon the judicial power and to retroactively abolish Theresa’s vested right to privacy.

In the linked opinion, the Florida Supreme Court affirmed the circuit court’s decision on Sept. 23, 2004.

During the course of the litigation, 3 separate guardians ad litem – independent individuals with no stake in the case – have been appointed by the courts. 2 were attorneys and one was a doctor. The last was requested by Gov. Jeb Bush. All have concluded that Ms. Schiavo would wish the life-preserving measures to cease under her current circumstances and have testified to that conclusion in the trial and various hearings.

There has been an extensive trial, a separate extensive hearing at which multiple qualified physicians testified, and at least 7 separate appeals. This includes appeals that have been heard by the Florida Supreme Court twice, that have gone to the US Supreme Court now twice, and have been decided by both federal and state courts.

Here are links to copies of just some of the orders and opinions in the case:
Order by Judge Greer setting Oct. 15, 2003 as the date when removal of the feeding tube can begin (Sept. 17, 2003) (http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Order%20of%20Death%20091703.pdf)
Order by Fla. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals denying motion for a stay (March 16, 2005) (http://www.2dca.org/schiavo/order.pdf)
Order setting March 18, 2005 as the day to withdraw Schiavo's feeding tube (Feb. 25, 2005) (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/22505ctord.pdf)
U.S. Supreme Court Order rejecting a request to consider arguments on the case (March 17, 2005) (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/orders/courtorders/031705pzr.pdf)
US District Court Order denying the request of Terri Schiavo’s parents to reinsert a feeding tube into their daughter (March 22, 2005) (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/32205fjord.pdf)
11th Circuit Opinion In 2-1 vote, a federal appeals court denies a legal request to reinsert a feeding tube into Terri Schiavo (March 23, 2005) (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/32305opn11.pdf)
The 11th Circuit Order denying Terri Schiavo’s parents request for a rehearing (March 23, 2005) (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/32305norhrng.pdf)

After a full trial, a second extensive hearing, dozens of motions, numerous court rulings, numerous appeals, etc., the courts have uniformly held that, by clear and convincing evidence, Ms. Schiavo is in a persistent vegatative state and would wish to die under these circumstances.

Based on the stray hearsay you've read or heard you disagree factually with all of these judges, guardians ad litem, etc., who have no personal stake in the matter, are trained to decide these questions, and have heard extensive facts -- including the presentations of Ms. Schiavo's parents. Tough. Your opinion is unreasonable.

Let the poor shell that is left of the woman die.

I know that people really hate facts or law in these forums because they get in the way of uninformed opinions.

Nonetheless, I'm really sick of those who think they know what is best for a complete stranger, Terri Schiavo, based on rumor, innuendo, and libel.

Here are some facts:
...

facts, pffft. facts are meaningless. you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.

i wonder if he will be entitled to her social security benefits???

i dont think he should get another dime off of this.

Several things that I would wish to say before everyone calls me an insane idiot:

It cannot be proven that Terry Schiavo desires death. A judge, a husband, or even a legislative body (i.e.- Florida State legislative branch) cannot and should not determine the termination of an innocent human being. Michael Schiavo can say anything that he wants about Terry's will, but he lacks a written document that expresses this will. No matter how many relatives of his or friends or whatever that stand up and swear that Terry desires death, only Terry can legally decide her fate as an innocent American citizen, convicted of no crime. As the Declaration of Independence states:

". . . that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness . . ."

Okay, taking into consideration the irrelevance of most of that particular passage to this case, there is still an undertone that the government is endowed by God to uphold the rights of its citizens to live. Life is and should be the automatic recourse in place of a better or more substantiated option, and today's government has taken it upon itself to deny Terry Schiavo that right. Now, to me, the government has no business determining the intent of an individual human being without a solid case that that individual's will would be for death. Basically, from what I skimmed through from someone's previous quote of court records, the courts are simply saying that Terry has no right to live, because she is supposedly not capable of living a productine and "cognitive" life afterwards. I would like to echo the Vatican's sentiment in a statement yesterday: What harm is inflicted in letting her live?

One must consider the implications of this cultural battle as well. If Terry is killed, or, as the judges justify their decisions, "let to die," then what is to become of our future? Assisted suicide, euthanasia, and the already telling effects of abortion are undoubtedly the by-products. Some out there see no harm in any of this; quite frankly, if you see these developments as good, then I am sorry to say that we will never agree. I, for one, though, rue the day when any individual is treated like the innocent Terry Schiavo is in this case. The truth is that Terry's will probably will remain unknown, and an activist court system will have stabbed a pair of grieving parents in the heart by ordering the death of their child. Call the parents whatever you want, but I would ask that everyone please consider what they would do in a situation like this. Some of your answers will undoubtedly stun me, but I have seen enough junk and lies on this thread that anything seems within the limits of one's imagination. Some will call me a liar, a bigot, or a Christian fanatic, but I believe that in the end, no one, not even I, will realize the magnitude of this case to the future of America and the future of basic rights to life.

i wonder if he will be entitled to her social security benefits???

i dont think he should get another dime off of this.


Michael Schiavo was offered a million dollars to give up his fight to have his wife's feeding tube removed and he turned it down.

Whatever his motives (apparently honoring his wife's wishes) they are not financial.

Several things that I would wish to say before everyone calls me an insane idiot:

It cannot be proven that Terry Schiavo desires death. A judge, a husband, or even a legislative body (i.e.- Florida State legislative branch) cannot and should not determine the termination of an innocent human being. Michael Schiavo can say anything that he wants about Terry's will, but he lacks a written document that expresses this will. No matter how many relatives of his or friends or whatever that stand up and swear that Terry desires death, only Terry can legally decide her fate as an innocent American citizen, convicted of no crime. As the Declaration of Independence states:

". . . that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness . . ."

Okay, taking into consideration the irrelevance of most of that particular passage to this case, there is still an undertone that the government is endowed by God to uphold the rights of its citizens to live. Life is and should be the automatic recourse in place of a better or more substantiated option, and today's government has taken it upon itself to deny Terry Schiavo that right. Now, to me, the government has no business determining the intent of an individual human being without a solid case that that individual's will would be for death. Basically, from what I skimmed through from someone's previous quote of court records, the courts are simply saying that Terry has no right to live, because she is supposedly not capable of living a productine and "cognitive" life afterwards. I would like to echo the Vatican's sentiment in a statement yesterday: What harm is inflicted in letting her live?

One must consider the implications of this cultural battle as well. If Terry is killed, or, as the judges justify their decisions, "let to die," then what is to become of our future? Assisted suicide, euthanasia, and the already telling effects of abortion are undoubtedly the by-products. Some out there see no harm in any of this; quite frankly, if you see these developments as good, then I am sorry to say that we will never agree. I, for one, though, rue the day when any individual is treated like the innocent Terry Schiavo is in this case. The truth is that Terry's will probably will remain unknown, and an activist court system will have stabbed a pair of grieving parents in the heart by ordering the death of their child. Call the parents whatever you want, but I would ask that everyone please consider what they would do in a situation like this. Some of your answers will undoubtedly stun me, but I have seen enough junk and lies on this thread that anything seems within the limits of one's imagination. Some will call me a liar, a bigot, or a Christian fanatic, but I believe that in the end, no one, not even I, will realize the magnitude of this case to the future of America and the future of basic rights to life.



The declaration of independence isnt part of the laws of the United States.
Common error there.


The law in the United States says very clearly that as terry schiavo's consented legal guardian, it is Michael Schiavo's decision as to whether or not she has a feeding tube removed.

This is not a new precedent being set, legal guardians have been empowered to make these decisions for decades. This does not set a precedent for euthanasia or any other cases involving the 'right to die.'

It is a clear-cut case of michael schiavo's consented legal right to act as guardian of his vegetative wife and make decisions regarding her care.

Terry schiavo consented that he be entrusted with this right when she married him, he did the same to her.

In fact, in some states (texas while bush was governor, for instance) a hospital can remove feeding tubes against the guardian and family's will if they are unable to pay the hospital for it.

Armany, I respect your opinion, but I think it is misguided and at least partially based on misunderstanding the situation. I'll respond to your points below (but slightly out of order).

One side note: I personally find it insensitive and presumptuous of those who are complete strangers to Ms. Schiavo to not only presume to know what is best for her but also to presume to call her by her first name. You do not know Ms. Schiavo. You do not know what is best for her. And you are not on a first-name basis.

Basically, from what I skimmed through from someone's previous quote of court records, the courts are simply saying that Terry has no right to live, because she is supposedly not capable of living a productine and "cognitive" life afterwards. I would like to echo the Vatican's sentiment in a statement yesterday: What harm is inflicted in letting her live?

You should go back and read, rather than skim, what the courts have said. Particularly where you have such strong opinions and are distressed, an accurate picture of the situation would be advisable and perhaps a relief. You may wish to read the actual opinions as they would resolve many of your concerns.

You have what the courts have said entirely backwards. No court has ruled or said that Ms. Schiavo has no right to live and should be put to death because she "not capable of living a producti[v]e and 'cognitive' life."

To the contrary, the courts have ruled that Ms. Schiavo has a right not to have a feeding tube forced down her throat against her will. She has a right to refuse medical treatment. She has basic rights that are not subject to the emotional will of her parents.

Several things that I would wish to say before everyone calls me an insane idiot:

It cannot be proven that Terry Schiavo desires death. A judge, a husband, or even a legislative body (i.e.- Florida State legislative branch) cannot and should not determine the termination of an innocent human being. Michael Schiavo can say anything that he wants about Terry's will, but he lacks a written document that expresses this will. No matter how many relatives of his or friends or whatever that stand up and swear that Terry desires death, only Terry can legally decide her fate as an innocent American citizen, convicted of no crime.

Apparently you do think that someone can determine that a human being can be force-fed against their will.

If Ms. Schiavo had a living will -- "a written document that expresses" her desire not to be kept alive artificially, would your objections cease?

If so, then why will you not except what has been the law since long before the concept of a living will was invented -- that a court may determine the patient's desire for medical treatment?

You keep referring to Ms. Schiavo as "innocent" (which she is) but you reject the same systems of law by which we determine that others are not innocent. Why?

As the Declaration of Independence states:

". . . that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness . . ."

Okay, taking into consideration the irrelevance of most of that particular passage to this case, there is still an undertone that the government is endowed by God to uphold the rights of its citizens to live.

I am glad you recognize the Declaration of Independence has no bearing on the case. You should also recognize that the quoted passage makes no reference to government at all. Nothing in either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution states or implies that "government is endowed by God" to do anything.

More critically, I have explained that no court has denied Ms. Schiavo's right to life. You appear to deny that Ms. Schiavo has any other rights.

Life is and should be the automatic recourse in place of a better or more substantiated option, and today's government has taken it upon itself to deny Terry Schiavo that right. Now, to me, the government has no business determining the intent of an individual human being without a solid case that that individual's will would be for death.

A "solid case" has been determined multiple times by "clear and convincing evidence" by multiple courts.

Who would you have determine the intent of the individual? You apparently do not trust the individual's husband. You apparently do not trust her guardians ad litem. You apparently do not trust dozens of federal and state judges. Who then?

One must consider the implications of this cultural battle as well. If Terry is killed, or, as the judges justify their decisions, "let to die," then what is to become of our future? Assisted suicide, euthanasia, and the already telling effects of abortion are undoubtedly the by-products. Some out there see no harm in any of this; quite frankly, if you see these developments as good, then I am sorry to say that we will never agree.

Apparently you put your belief that other individuals should live over the desires of those individuals. You would forcibly invade people's bodies against their will. Apparently we will never agree.

I, for one, though, rue the day when any individual is treated like the innocent Terry Schiavo is in this case. The truth is that Terry's will probably will remain unknown, and an activist court system will have stabbed a pair of grieving parents in the heart by ordering the death of their child. Call the parents whatever you want, but I would ask that everyone please consider what they would do in a situation like this. Some of your answers will undoubtedly stun me, but I have seen enough junk and lies on this thread that anything seems within the limits of one's imagination. Some will call me a liar, a bigot, or a Christian fanatic, but I believe that in the end, no one, not even I, will realize the magnitude of this case to the future of America and the future of basic rights to life.

Again, I think your premise is wrong. This is an unusual case only in the extraordinary measures that have been taken to keep Ms. Schiavo alive. There is nothing activist about what the courts have done here. And if you read the opinions, they have been very sympathetic to the parents.

Ms. Schiavo's case went to the courts in 1998. After an extensive trial and an appeal, it was original ordered that she be allowed to die in 2000. The courts have ordered that Ms. Schiavo to be forcibly kept alive for the last 5 years so the parents could exhaust every remedy. That is extraordinary. The interference of Gov. Bush, the Florida legislature, and Congress is extraordinary. Recognizing individual's wish not to be forcibly kept alive is not extraordinary and sets no new precedent.

facts, pffft. facts are meaningless. you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.


new favorite quote

it has just recently come to light that Judge Greer has received substantial campaign contributions from Michael Schiavos attorneys. that has to raise a few eyebrows.

We do all realize the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta ruled against the Schindlers' appeal

it has just recently come to light that Judge Greer has received substantial campaign contributions from Michael Schiavos attorneys. that has to raise a few eyebrows.

Would you care to provide a source and details?

In the absence of any facts, my response is "so?"

1. Attorneys giving campaign contributions to judges is a fact of life whenever you have elected judges. This is nothing unusual.

2. Judge Greer's decisions have been reviewed multiple times by higher courts.

It sounds like those you have been defaming Michael Sciavos are just doing the same to Judge Greer. Have you no decency? ;)

EDIT: The only source I can find so far is a right wing internet rag (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43493) which says the contribution was $250. Sure, the Judge sold out for $250. :rolleyes:

it has just recently come to light that Judge Greer has received substantial campaign contributions from Michael Schiavos attorneys. that has to raise a few eyebrows.

source please?

I see Terri Schiavo's case as an example of a society's infatuation with death. We used to honor and care for our elderly, anticipate and love our children, and look for ways to make life worth living for everyone. Now we accept abortions, euthenasia, and suicide as preferable to a life less than perfect. If the Pope lived in the US, would he be alive right now? Or would our social environment have decided that he did not have an adequate quality of life and not sustained him with the life support of a respirator and a tracheostomy?

EDIT: The only source I can find so far is a right wing internet rag (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43493) which says the contribution was $250. Sure, the Judge sold out for $250. :rolleyes:
Hey, who knows? He might have really wanted a new playstation 2


I see Terri Schiavo's case as an example of a society's infatuation with death. We used to honor and care for our elderly, anticipate and love our children, and look for ways to make life worth living for everyone. Now we accept abortions, euthenasia, and suicide as preferable to a life less than perfect. If the Pope lived in the US, would he be alive right now? Or would our social environment have decided that he did not have an adequate quality of life and not sustained him with the life support of a respirator and a tracheostomy?
Your argument is bullshit. Totally seperate cases on MULTIPLE levels, the very attempt to compare them is another sad attempt to influence peoples' opinions based on emotions, the last ditch effort of some one without a leg to stand on

Your argument is bullshit. Totally seperate cases on MULTIPLE levels, the very attempt to compare them is another sad attempt to influence peoples' opinions based on emotions, the last ditch effort of some one without a leg to stand on

Our laws concerning right to die and quality of life pulls the plug on thousands of people every year who are in basically the same shape as the Holy Father. We have a general movement towards death rather than life with great challenges. If my impressions and observations were to influence someone, what, exactly, would it accomplish in regards to Terri Schiavo? Nothing! If, on the other hand, it helped them view a disabled person's worth a little differently, well....

Our laws concerning right to die and quality of life pulls the plug on thousands of people every year who are in basically the same shape as the Holy Father. We have a general movement towards death rather than life with great challenges. If my impressions and observations were to influence someone, what, exactly, would it accomplish in regards to Terri Schiavo? Nothing! If, on the other hand, it helped them view a disabled person's worth a little differently, well....

Just try to document that. It simply is not true.

And, Judge Greer happens to be disabled -- he is blind. (Gives new meaning to justice is blind, huh? :) )

Just try to document that. It simply is not true.

And, Judge Greer happens to be disabled -- he is blind. (Gives new meaning to justice is blind, huh? :) )

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=594753

PHILADELPHIA Mar 18, 2005 — Hospitals and nursing homes don't track how many Americans die each year after some level of life support is withdrawn, but the number is likely to be at least in the tens of thousands, doctors said Friday.

"I make at least one of these decisions daily," said Dr. Sean Morrison, a palliative care physician and professor at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City.

"For a majority of people who die in this country, a decision is made at some point to either withhold or withdraw a medical treatment," he said.

I wasn't aware that Judge Greer is blind, but he's not mentally handicapped, doesn't require constant medical care, and he is able to tend to himself. These are the basis for most mercy killings.

EDIT: 2 of my sons are blind. Both have careers and families. They are not handicapped or disabled. They have unique challenges.

Actually I heard the husband stands to gain alot from her death. He received a settlement from the whole ordeal and now he wants her gone so he can go spend it..................the medical attention costs alot for his wife and well.............figure it out. How will we ever know if she really wanted to die or not, it's not in writing. I mean she probably did want to die, or not live like this, but he is getting sick of it all and just wants it to end, whether its in his best interest or not..........will we ever know.

I still think the money has something to do with it. My opinion.

EDIT: Me myself, would NOT want to live like this........its been 12 years, let it go (my opinion again).


Money has nothing to do with it. The medical malpractice award was for only 1 million dollars. After medical costs there is between 40,000 and 70,000 left. That was stated tonight on CNN and other news agencies. Michael Schiavo was offered $10 million a few years ago if he would give up custody of his wife. He was just offered another million last week to walk away. Her condition started in 1990 so it has been 15 years not 12.

Those people that keep bitching about her starving to death are wrong. She is not dying from lack of food. She is dying from lack of water.

Our laws concerning right to die and quality of life pulls the plug on thousands of people every year who are in basically the same shape as the Holy Father. We have a general movement towards death rather than life with great challenges. If my impressions and observations were to influence someone, what, exactly, would it accomplish in regards to Terri Schiavo? Nothing! If, on the other hand, it helped them view a disabled person's worth a little differently, well....
Like I said, an out of bounds appeal to emotion is the last sad attempt of some one without a leg to stand on to convince people they are right. There is no comparison between the Pope and Terri Schiavo. Can the Pope feed himself and speak and such? Due to the fact he appeared on video for this Friday, I submit he can. Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. She is solely alive, in the most basic definition of the word alive, due to extreme medical intervention; a tube is inserted into her stomach supplying what keeps her alive, it's extreme. Your comparison of some one very sick due to various illnesses to some one unable to even "think" is almsot as sad as some one on another forum comparing this to animal abuse or the Schindler attorney comparing it to murder, at least you are comparing medical conditions

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=594753

I am aware that withdrawal of life support is common. I mentioned that earlier in the thread. It is one of the reasons why the hysteria over Ms. Schiavo is so ridiculous.

Nothing in the article supports your assertion that "[o]ur laws concerning right to die and quality of life pulls the plug on thousands of people every year who are in basically the same shape as the Holy Father." I'm no fan of the Pope but he is neither on life support nor nonresponsive.

I wasn't aware that Judge Greer is blind, but he's not mentally handicapped, doesn't require constant medical care, and he is able to tend to himself. These are the basis for most mercy killings.

EDIT: 2 of my sons are blind. Both have careers and families. They are not handicapped or disabled. They have unique challenges.

I am certainly not saying the blind are mentally impared, deserve mercy killings, etc. You simply referred to the disabled. You did not add any of the qualifiers you have added now. Legally, blindness is a disability. I think most disabilities are not hadicaps but challenges. I am happy for your sons.

He probably waited for the same reason her parents still want to wait. He thought there was hope for recovery. Now he sees that there is none.
I could understand that during the 3 years of therapy he tried to put her through, but then it took another 5 years of keeping her in the dark and doing nothing before he finally decided to try and get her tube removed.

I know it wouldn't take me long at all of suffering through a life where I could do absolutely nothing but lie there while other people take care of me to want nothing more than to be allowed to die, I couldn't imagine sitting through that for a year or two, and I couldn't imagine letting anyone I loved suffer that long just because I selfishly want to keep them in my life, but 8 years knowing she wanted to die if she was ever like that? And even worse, her parents aren't even happy with 15, they want to keep her alive but unable to live indefinitely. Hope has nothing to do with that if you ask me. Some people just cannot accept that death isn't the worst thing in the world but is a perfectly natural conclusion that we must all learn to come to terms with and are thus unable to come to terms with it.

What I don't understand is that if so many religious people believe that life is suffering and heaven is paradise, why are they so determined to keep everyone alive for as long as humanly possible simply for the sake of not letting them die? I get the impression that these people seem to believe that earth is heaven and the only place you could go after death is hell, so it's better to keep them alive no matter what then let them die now to suffer eternal torment in death. Otherwise, I'm not sure why they'd think someone dying is such a terrible injustice to the person dying. It seems more a matter of the living not wanting to live without the person dying than anything.

How does he stand to gain from her death?

I heard that he recieved a 1 million dollar payment that is in trust until she dies....
i think i read it in a newspaper, but i don't know if it's true or not.

I heard that he recieved a 1 million dollar payment that is in trust until she dies....
i think i read it in a newspaper, but i don't know if it's true or not.

Here is a list of the expenditures from Terri's funds since 1993. Keep in mind that these funds were awarded by the courts to provide for Terri's medical care, therapy, and upkeep to the estimated age of 54.

The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:
Summary of expenses paid from Terri’s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)
NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley $10,668.05
Atty Deborah Bushnell $65,607.00
Atty Steve Nilson $7,404.95
Atty Pacarek $1,500.00
Atty Richard Pearse (GAL) $4,511.95
Atty George Felos $397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank $55,459.85


Michael Schiavo $10,929.95


Total $545,852.34


http://www.terrisfight.net/

Here is a list of the expenditures from Terri's funds since 1993. Keep in mind that these funds were awarded by the courts to provide for Terri's medical care, therapy, and upkeep to the estimated age of 54.



http://www.terrisfight.net/


Assuming this is true, is there a point?

At most, it shows most of the funds have been spent trying to accomplish what Mr. Schiavo is supposedly trying to do in order to get the money. Appears that alleged motive is false.

I feel very, very sad for everyone involved in this distressing affair, but I can most readily identify with Terri's father. I've always been a rather empathetic person, but I can't even stand to watch him when he's on TV ... I get alwmost physically sick because all I can think about is what I would be feeling and thinking were one of my own daughters in Terri's circumstances.

I keep remembering the father who invaded the hospital where his young son was being kept alive artificially. He held the hospital staff and the police off with a pistol, holding his son until the boy died, then surrendered to police. I don't know what happened to this man, but I would have awarded him a medal. If he was brought up on charges and I had been on the jury, there would have been no conviction, perhaps a hung jury, but no conviction.

We, as a society, have to come to grips with this sort of thing. I don't know exactly what should be done, perhaps a legally constituted medical ethics panel? But I do know that this sort of tragedy will continue to occur until it's addressed in some way.

Like I said, an out of bounds appeal to emotion is the last sad attempt of some one without a leg to stand on to convince people they are right. There is no comparison between the Pope and Terri Schiavo. Can the Pope feed himself and speak and such? Due to the fact he appeared on video for this Friday, I submit he can. Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. She is solely alive, in the most basic definition of the word alive, due to extreme medical intervention; a tube is inserted into her stomach supplying what keeps her alive, it's extreme. Your comparison of some one very sick due to various illnesses to some one unable to even "think" is almsot as sad as some one on another forum comparing this to animal abuse or the Schindler attorney comparing it to murder, at least you are comparing medical conditions

The comparison was to question where the line is drawn in determining if someone's quality of life is such that they deserve death without their documented consent. Just as the Pope received heroic medical intervention to sustain his life, these same procedures are commonly withheld to the ill here in the US for their own "good". We're teetering on a slippery slope. We are on the verge of allowing laymen and courts to determine a person's worth, with death as the penalty.

The main reason that Terri's situation has drawn so much attention is because of radically conflicting opinions of medical experts. We don't know what her condition is because her husband has not permitted therapy or conclusive medical testing. The most recent push to maintain her nutrients is to allow time for such testing to be done. If she were allowed these diagnostic tests and they proved that she is permanently "unaware", everyone would be able to accept her death more easily. If they proved that she is in a position to respond to therapy and adequate medical care then a horrible unjust death could be averted.

Assuming this is true, is there a point?

At most, it shows most of the funds have been spent trying to accomplish what Mr. Schiavo is supposedly trying to do in order to get the money. Appears that alleged motive is false.

He refuses to discuss the possibility of an insurance policy. Reports of a book deal is often rumored, but immediately repressed. He has filed for and received an order for no autopsy upon death. He is currently playing games with Terri's parents denying them visitation at odd hours and for varying lengths of time. Can you imagine standing outside that nursing home, knowing your child is in there dying, and being told by a policeman that you cannot enter and be with her? My God, what if she died, alone, while they were barred from seeing her? At this time, when he has won what he wanted, why is he playing games and torturing these people?

I believe his actions now are indicative of his behavior throughout this struggle, and lend more credence to her parent's arguments.

He refuses to discuss the possibility of an insurance policy. Reports of a book deal is often rumored, but immediately repressed. He has filed for and received an order for no autopsy upon death. He is currently playing games with Terri's parents denying them visitation at odd hours and for varying lengths of time. Can you imagine standing outside that nursing home, knowing your child is in there dying, and being told by a policeman that you cannot enter and be with her? My God, what if she died, alone, while they were barred from seeing her? At this time, when he has won what he wanted, why is he playing games and torturing these people?

I believe his actions now are indicative of his behavior throughout this struggle, and lend more credence to her parent's arguments.

You really need to get better information. I would go point-by-point through your errors. But you keep recycling canards without regard for the facts. You apparently do not care what the facts are.

Perhaps it is difficult for Mr. Schiavo to spend time in the same room with people who publicly have called him a murderer for several years now. There have been more than a few incidents of the parents creating scenes anytime they are in his presence. As he has every right to be by his wife's bedside, the fact that he has, in fact, placed relatively little restriction on visitation by Schindlers shows great patience.

Regardless, the continued attempts to villify Mr. Schiavo are sickening and miss the point: Ms. Schiavo wished to be allowed to die. Mr. Schiavo's wishes are beside the point.

He refuses to discuss the possibility of an insurance policy. Reports of a book deal is often rumored, but immediately repressed. He has filed for and received an order for no autopsy upon death. He is currently playing games with Terri's parents denying them visitation at odd hours and for varying lengths of time. Can you imagine standing outside that nursing home, knowing your child is in there dying, and being told by a policeman that you cannot enter and be with her? My God, what if she died, alone, while they were barred from seeing her? At this time, when he has won what he wanted, why is he playing games and torturing these people?

I believe his actions now are indicative of his behavior throughout this struggle, and lend more credence to her parent's arguments.
I haven't trusted this character since I first started following this case. He's stonewalled everyone, including Terri's parents, repeatedly. Why is that? I am usually able to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but in his case I can't. I'm getting way too emotionally involved in this case and suppose I just need to quit watching it. Sigh. :(

Ms. Schiavo wished to be allowed to die. Mr. Schiavo's wishes are beside the point.
But, unless I'm completely misinformed, he is the only one who says that she wished to die! That alone makes me suspicious! :(

I'm listening to the former nurse for Terri Schiavo right now. She says that Terri's husband would bring prospective girlfriends to the hospital to prove to them that she was in a persistent vegitative state! That alone is sufficient for me to despise this ... person. :(

The nurse also said that she has filed affidavits with the court in which she testifys that Terri's husband would deny Terri even things like antibiotics for a unrinary infection!

But, unless I'm completely misinformed, he is the only one who says that she wished to die! That alone makes me suspicious! :(

You are misinformed. Others testified to the same thing.

Multiple courts have agreed that this was proven by clear and convincing evidence -- despite the zealous opposition of the Schindlers.

We, as a society, have to come to grips with this sort of thing. I don't know exactly what should be done, perhaps a legally constituted medical ethics panel? But I do know that this sort of tragedy will continue to occur until it's addressed in some way.

Simple solution: force everyone to fill in a lifetestament. Like e.g. when they become legal adults, get married, get a license etc.

The comparison was to question where the line is drawn in determining if someone's quality of life is such that they deserve death without their documented consent. Just as the Pope received heroic medical intervention to sustain his life, these same procedures are commonly withheld to the ill here in the US for their own "good". We're teetering on a slippery slope. We are on the verge of allowing laymen and courts to determine a person's worth, with death as the penalty.

As said dozens, nay 100s, of times already: in principle the only person that can decide when his or her life isn't worth living anymore is that person him/herself or someone they have given the right to decide on their behalf. The Pope wishes to live on. It is claimed, and deemed proven by the court, that Terri does not.
Naturally, it is necessary that this person is capable of making a rational decision based on presented information - which means he/she should do so in advance. Having a liquid brain (or being in intense pain to give a non-Terri example) does not stimulate coherent thought after all.

Which is why everyone who hasn't done so already should now go, sit down, think about it, and put his/her wishes in writing. Preferably with witnesses.

But, unless I'm completely misinformed, he is the only one who says that she wished to die! That alone makes me suspicious! :(
And he, as her husband, would have been in the best place to hear such wishes. her parents sole counter to that is "she wouldn't have wanted that" or "she didn't tell us." Those statements don't very well counter his insistence she told him that is what she would have wanted. Their opposition to his statement she told him that is what she would want is that they feel she wouldn't have wanted to die

Well, if he divorces her and lets her parents take over, he no longer has the rights to any books or movies that could be made from her ordeal.

she can be rehabilitated...he reamarried...so why should he decide whether she lives? she has said in her state, "i want live" so that says something (and i quote her from a CNN report...LET HER LIVE!!!! :mad:

Well, if he divorces her and lets her parents take over, he no longer has the rights to any books or movies that could be made from her ordeal.

Nor - if you prefer the "it is possible he actually loves her" view - the power to demand that the courts/hospital honour her wishes.

she can be rehabilitated...he reamarried...so why should he decide whether she lives? she has said in her state, "i want live" so that says something (and i quote her from a CNN report...LET HER LIVE!!!! :mad:
If she could make a coherent sentence, we wouldn't be in this predicament

You are misinformed. Others testified to the same thing.
Who??

she can be rehabilitated...he reamarried...
No. He's still married to Terri. He's just shacking up with someone, with whom he's already had two children. As far as I'm concerned, this guy is a class "A" slimeball. :mad:

No. He's still married to Terri. He's just shacking up with someone, with whom he's already had two children. As far as I'm concerned, this guy is a class "A" slimeball. :mad:

I hope he ain't catholic. He just committed a very very big sin. The Church frowns on that sort of thing.

This arguement is getting pretty half-assed, so I'll half-ass a few answers to half-assed arguements. ^_^ I'm going to insert smileys randomly for added ignorance. :)

1. He w4nts t3h moneys!:
No. He could've easily taken any number of offers from corporations as well as invididuals ammounting to MILLIONS of dollars. He could then easily disguise himself and his family and go anywhere his heart desires and never have to here about the incident again.

:gundge:

Why bother being the legal custodian anymore for a small ammount of life insurance when he could have had millions of dollars? It just makes no sense at all.

2. Omg! Where's the ACLU?: :fluffle:
Did it ever occur to you that the right to die should be a civil liberty? If there is no hope of you ever recovering and doctors acknowledge this (except those your mommy and daddy pay to say otherwise), would you enjoy living like this?

If it happened to me, I honestly can't picture myself crying from the rooftops "Yay! I lost control of all my bodily functions! I can't communicate with anyone! Woohoo." Partially because I wouldn't be able to talk, partially because I wouldn't be able to talks, and partially because I couldn't even think about doing either of these.

:sniper:

If I were an organization like the ACLU I would fight for that right. Euthanasia is good. Although there are cases where it can end up being used as murder, people involved need to be punished for murder. In cases where people are saved from a life of misery, pain, and/or a vegetable state... It's better that they be allowed to do as they wish.

3. PMG! Why does Shiavo get priority over the 'rents?:
Because as her husband, he is also her legal custodian. I don't know where all the "denial of visitation rights" stuff is coming from because the parents can visit her whenver they want, being the parents and all. Family does have a right to visit as well as anyone on the family's "visitation list." I guess there might be a "denial of visitation list," but I haven't heard of such a thing in this case or anywhere else if it exists.

4. GOD clearly wants her to live no matter what! Even if she doesn't know she's alive! Who are WE to trespass on what HE wants?: :fluffle:

I love this one the most, just for reference. It's like saying "I don't have any other reason, so I'll cry "God" and hope someone responds in a positive manner. ^_^,

Well, if we wanted it to go as He wants, why are we prolonging her death? She can't swallow, and she can't respond. If you want it as He wants, unplug all of the machinery, leave a little note on her bedside tray which reads "Press the call button if you need us" and walk out of the room and don't allow anyone in to interfere. Problem solved! She'll die: as He would intend. And then decompose in the room naturally: as He would intend and then she will finally be free to go visit Him: as He would intend. What could be greater than golf with a gator? :eek:

5. She's not a vegetable! She's just got special problems that she has to overcome! :headbang:

Well, let's pull that feeding tube, leave her a note that says "Press the call button if you need us" and let her overcome them! She's a human and she's perfectly capable of rising to the challenge! I say you walk out, keep the room sealed and let her rise to the occaision! Her parents and their doctors claim she's capable of doing it, so why shouldn't we do everything in our capacity to make sure she gets that chance? :mp5:

Oh yeah... and blindness, deafness, dislexia, and enough brain activity to be in touch with the world around you, although they may suck, aren't really grounds for euthanasia. Which pretty much kicks everyone, even the Pope, who isn't a vegetable out of the same condition that Terri Schiavo is in. Of course, if lack of brain activity was reason to euthanise someone, I guess the all-knowing President Bushy wouldn't be in charge of this great country, would he? :fluffle:

Who said the Pope should be euthanised, anyway? That was just dumb. He's a cool dude. That reminds me... I need to go to the bookstore later and get that commemerative Pope action figure... He's got a date with Optimus Prime to keep the other heathens from destroying the universe later.... :fluffle:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I addressed the Pope thing, and that was the lowest comment I saw on here. Shame on whoever did it. I'm off to go hang out with some friends and save the world with the Pope. See you later.

No. He's still married to Terri. He's just shacking up with someone, with whom he's already had two children. As far as I'm concerned, this guy is a class "A" slimeball. :mad:

I'm going to have to go w/ Cat on this one. His wife has been in a coma for over a decade, every credible neurologist , including court appointed ones, has said she's unrecoverable. after that long, it's reasonable.


He may be a jerk, but he took care of her for years and did everything he could to try and help her while the parents want her to live like that for years. Do you HONESTLY think that's what she would want?

How do they even know that she wants to be dead? Anyone could say my wife wants to be killed. :headbang: This is just pure bull crap! They have no evidence explaining the case! Besides if you look at it he is going to marry another person, so it seems like he wants to just kill her. It's just as bad murder.

Not to mention that she said AHHHH!!!!! WWWAAAAA!!!! when the feeding tube was removed.

Not to mention (and this from a former nurse of hers) that she fed her 1)water (and this through her mouth, not the tube), apple juice, orange juice and small pieces of jello.

whats such the big deal with this case?

Not to mention that she said AHHHH!!!!! WWWAAAAA!!!! when the feeding tube was removed.

Not to mention (and this from a former nurse of hers) that she fed her 1)water (and this through her mouth, not the tube), apple juice, orange juice and small pieces of jello.

Why didn't the parents bring this up a week ago when it alledgedly happened?

You mean the former nurse who has claimed the husband tried to inject insulin and that he paraded girlfriends through the room? If she can eat, why do they have her on a tube?

Come on people, it's been 15 years, let the poor woman go.

yes he is a slimeball...and i really would support him if she was a complete vegetable...BUT SHE'S NOT! and as far as moving on is concerned...whether he's remarried or shacked up, he CAN move on with his worthless life, WITHOUT ENDING HERS! I STILL SAY LET HER LIVE. and she can be rehabilitated, but slimeball hubby didn't want to let the docs rehabilitate her (they do have methods you know) and the fact that she can respond, REALLY SAYS SOMETHING! And if congress (OR WHOEVER) agrees with his views, THEY ALL HAVE HER BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

and then I'LL GET INVOVLED!!!! :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Apparently, that's what his wife wanted, and he's trying to follow her wishes.

*shrugs* If a bunch of bastards tried to keep my wife from carrying out my wishes, I'd hope she'd be pretty mad, too.

How do they even know that she wants to be dead? Anyone could say my wife wants to be killed. :headbang: This is just pure bull crap! They have no evidence explaining the case!

I suppose you know better than the courts that have spent several years studying this then ?
If so - why didn't you bother to tell them ?

Who??

Other family members. I believe a sister, sister-in-law, and brother-in-law. There may be others, but I'm getting tired of looking up information for people who have strong opinions but can't be bothered to know the facts.

The Schindlers, by the way, have little evidence that she would not want to die. They primarily insist that she never told them. They, however, have testified that they oppose allowing her to die regardless of her wishes. They maintained this view even if she were suffering extreme pain and other gruesome circumstances -- (although, to their credit, they later backed away from this part).

Multiple courts have held by clear and convincing evidence -- that is a standard greater than a mere perponderance but less than beyond a reasonable doubt -- she would wish to die under these circumstances. Every guardian ad litem has agreed.

Contrary to many people's assumptions, Mr. Schiavo is not ordering that she be allowed to die. It is not because he is her guardian that she is being allowed to die. It is because she wished it. If any of the courts that have reviewed this believed otherwise, she would still be forcibly kept alive.

Why do you (and I don't mean just you but all those worked up about this) believe you know better without having heard or read a single drop of evidence?

Apparently, that's what his wife wanted, and he's trying to follow her wishes.

*shrugs* If a bunch of bastards tried to keep my wife from carrying out my wishes, I'd hope she'd be pretty mad, too.

those are her ALLEGED wishes that her hubby said...but why would she say she wanted to live in her state??? :confused: :mad: :rolleyes: :sniper:

i believe that i heard on fox news about the campaign contribution story.

yes he is a slimeball...and i really would support him if she was a complete vegetable...BUT SHE'S NOT! and as far as moving on is concerned...whether he's remarried or shacked up, he CAN move on with his worthless life, WITHOUT ENDING HERS! I STILL SAY LET HER LIVE. and she can be rehabilitated, but slimeball hubby didn't want to let the docs rehabilitate her (they do have methods you know) and the fact that she can respond, REALLY SAYS SOMETHING! And if congress (OR WHOEVER) agrees with his views, THEY ALL HAVE HER BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

and then I'LL GET INVOVLED!!!! :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

and you have a PHD in Neurology from where exactly? I'll take their word on it.

yes he is a slimeball...and i really would support him if she was a complete vegetable...BUT SHE'S NOT! and as far as moving on is concerned...whether he's remarried or shacked up, he CAN move on with his worthless life, WITHOUT ENDING HERS! I STILL SAY LET HER LIVE. and she can be rehabilitated, but slimeball hubby didn't want to let the docs rehabilitate her (they do have methods you know) and the fact that she can respond, REALLY SAYS SOMETHING! And if congress (OR WHOEVER) agrees with his views, THEY ALL HAVE HER BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

and then I'LL GET INVOVLED!!!! :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

She been in a coma for how many years and i admit that it is possible that she can pull out as many people did, but what i heard her brain functions ceased so he has every right to kill her since he has the right of attorny or whatever it is called.

What you say is like me going to a quadrapalegic who cant even think and force him to live. Would you wish to remain in a vegetative state?

those are her ALLEGED wishes that her hubby said...but why would she say she wanted to live in her state??? :confused: :mad: :rolleyes: :sniper:

Where did she say that? Clearly. Not just some open vowel sounds her parents interpeted to mean whatever they wanted brought up a week afterwards.

Other family members. I believe a sister, sister-in-law, and brother-in-law. There may be others, but I'm getting tired of looking up information for people who have strong opinions but can't be bothered to know the facts.

The Schindlers, by the way, have little evidence that she would not want to die. They primarily insist that she never told them. They, however, have testified that they oppose allowing her to die regardless of her wishes. They maintained this view even if she were suffering extreme pain and other gruesome circumstances -- (although, to their credit, they later backed away from this part).

Multiple courts have held by clear and convincing evidence -- that is a standard greater than a mere perponderance but less than beyond a reasonable doubt -- she would wish to die under these circumstances. Every guardian ad litem has agreed.

Contrary to many people's assumptions, Mr. Schiavo is not ordering that she be allowed to die. It is not because he is her guardian that she is being allowed to die. It is because she wished it. If any of the courts that have reviewed this believed otherwise, she would still be forcibly kept alive.

Why do you (and I don't mean just you but all those worked up about this) believe you know better without having heard or read a single drop of evidence?
I don't claim to "know better" at all. I just have my own opinions. The entire thing is so very sad and disturbing to me, as I mentioned in an earlier post today. If I had answers to this sort of thing, I would probably be an advisor to a medical board somewhere, or to political office-holders, making lots of money and not having time to speculate about it all here on NS. :)

those are her ALLEGED wishes that her hubby said...but why would she say she wanted to live in her state??? :confused: :mad: :rolleyes: :sniper:

Well.. there are lots of tv-shows about people in comas. Many people (Terri included IIRC) have relatives that die suffering great pain. There are in theory plenty of times one can say things like "I would not want to life like this", or "I would hate to prohibit my loved ones from moving on if something like that ever happened to me".

http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html



theres too much info to post here regarding this case, but here is a link in case anyone is interested.

http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html

theres too much info to post here regarding this case, but here is a link in case anyone is interested.
Wow! If all of that is true, Judge Greer should be impeached!

Again I ask, what is the big deal about this case?

yes he is a slimeball...and i really would support him if she was a complete vegetable...BUT SHE'S NOT! and as far as moving on is concerned...whether he's remarried or shacked up, he CAN move on with his worthless life, WITHOUT ENDING HERS! I STILL SAY LET HER LIVE. and she can be rehabilitated, but slimeball hubby didn't want to let the docs rehabilitate her (they do have methods you know) and the fact that she can respond, REALLY SAYS SOMETHING! And if congress (OR WHOEVER) agrees with his views, THEY ALL HAVE HER BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS!!!!

Grow up.

If you insist in meddling in other peoples' lives at least try to be informed. Up the thread a little are extensive, documented details about Mrs. Schiavo's condition.

Mr. Schiavo did, in fact, seek aggressive medical treatment for Mrs. Schiavo. Including several experimental treatments. He persisted in seeking medical treatment long after her physicians concluded it was hopeless.

Multiple doctors -- including multiple independent doctors appointed by the courts -- have concluded that Mrs. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The courts have all concluded this to be true by clear and convincing evidence. No reputable doctor who has examined Mrs. Schiavo disagrees.

The "she can respond" crap is just that, crap. People in a persistent vegetative state can and do make occasional sounds or movement. It has nothing to do with their brain responding to stimuli. Mrs. Schiavo has been videotaped for hundreds of hours. With the Schindlers constantly providing stimuli. The few times Mrs. Schiavo makes any noise or movement, they rush to the media with a new tape that "she can respond." In one clip, it was shown that Mr. Schindler did the same thing over 100 times and then got one "response," at which point he continued but got no other "response." Multiple objective observers and medical experts have denied Mrs. Schiavo responds to stimuli. Every bit of "evidence" you have seen or heard about has been presented multiple times to multiple courts -- and found to be without merit.

Oh yeah one more thing, if she allegedly said something after the tube was removed then it was probably caused by escaping gas(es)

http://www.petitiononline.com/ijg520/petition.html



theres too much info to post here regarding this case, but here is a link in case anyone is interested.

Well I guess it's better than the guy who was just arrested by the FBI for trying to put a hit out on the Judge and the husband.

However, have you read some of the comments on that petition? Can we say uninformed?

Again I ask, what is the big deal about this case?
It's a "leading edge" case involving the rights and responsibilities of multiple parties: the patient, the spouse, the parents, the State, the courts, the law, the Federal government, etc.

The outcomes of all the various legal actions in this case can set precedents for years to come.

Why didn't the parents bring this up a week ago when it alledgedly happened?

You mean the former nurse who has claimed the husband tried to inject insulin and that he paraded girlfriends through the room? If she can eat, why do they have her on a tube?

Come on people, it's been 15 years, let the poor woman go.

Just going by what was reported. Could say the samething about the Husband stating she wants to die but didn't say anything till years after he stopped her treatments.

As for this nurse, don't know what nurse stated what but the nurse I've heard stated what I did state. As for the feeding tube, that's a good point. If this is true, then why did she still have it?

But she CAN'T respond. Unbiased doctors from the court were sent to investigate that. If she could respond, there wouldn't be an arguement over whether her body should be allowed to die or not. Her mind isn't there. There's nothing to be rehabilitated. People seem to have a hard time realizing that there's a bare minimum of brain activity going on.

You do realize that that little brain activity is all that's keeping her organs functioning, don't you? If the brain dies off (ie: the brain activity completely stops) she'll need the life support systems. The only life support she's HAD was the feeding tube.

However, have you read some of the comments on that petition? Can we say uninformed?
You expect people to be rational about this case? Or, for that matter, about virtually anything? If so, you're going to be very disappointed in life.

It's a "leading edge" case involving the rights and responsibilities of multiple parties: the patient, the spouse, the parents, the State, the courts, the law, the Federal government, etc.

The outcomes of all the various legal actions in this case can set precedents for years to come.

So this is going to be another one of the cuban or whoever in florida and didnt go to his legal guardian until it went to high up courts?

If so then this is pointless.

Again I ask, what is the big deal about this case?

An innocent woman is getting starved to death against her will. Even Timothy Mcveigh got a last meal. That's the big deal.

An innocent woman is getting starved to death against her will. Even Timothy Mcveigh got a last meal. That's the big deal.

And your point is?

You expect people to be rational about this case? Or, for that matter, about virtually anything? If so, you're going to be very disappointed in life.

I don't expect people to be rational. You should read some of the posts though. There is some serious ignorance going on there.

People,

Passions are running high here over this case and tempers are flying. Let us all cool down please before this gets even more out of hand then it already is.

An innocent woman is getting starved to death against her will. Even Timothy Mcveigh got a last meal. That's the big deal.

Funny - according to her husband, friends and courts she is being kept alive against her will.

Wow! If all of that is true, Judge Greer should be impeached!

These accusations say all that needs to be said about how trustworthy that petition is:

13. Judge Greer has allowed Terri’s constitutional right to privacy to be violated by Michael Schiavo by not restricting his comments during interviews on national television.

...

20. Judge Greer has denied Terri the right under 744.3215 (g) to be properly educated. She is not receiving any rehabilitative therapy.

...

35. Judge Greer in his February 11, 2000 Order, committed malpractice by
misdiagnosing Terri as being an unconscious and unaware person and then ordered the Guardian of the Ward to commit a 1st Degree Felony Crime by removing Terri's feeding tube and denying her constitutional and legal right to be protected and not feloniously victimized by being caused to die.

It's a "leading edge" case involving the rights and responsibilities of multiple parties: the patient, the spouse, the parents, the State, the courts, the law, the Federal government, etc.

The outcomes of all the various legal actions in this case can set precedents for years to come.

Actually, no.

As was documented earlier, the only extraordinary circumstances here are the amount of publicity, the amount of appeals the parents have made, the intervention of Gov. Bush and Congress, and the long period over which this has been dragged out.

The legal issues are quiet well settled and people are allowed to die under similar circumstances every day.

There's no will to go against. ¬_¬ Terry Schiavo is a vegetable. She has no will. She has no concious thought.

According to her husband, whom the court agrees with, she was being kept alive against her will.

People throw a fit and ask why he would suddenly change his mind a few years ago... At one point, her brain activity peaked and it looked like she'd come out of the coma. So everyone had hope it'd end. Now she's been in her coma for over 12 years.

People say it's the morally correct thing to do to "save a life no matter what." But life as you know it doesn't exist within that shell anymore. All that's left is the shell. Terri is dead. Her body just happens to have been left behind.

People,

Passions are running high here over this case and tempers are flying. Let us all cool down please before this gets even more out of hand then it already is.

So much for me trying to be the voice of reason.

Alwell. This is it anyway. To bad. At least when this is all said and done, we can finally get back to real issues such as foreign affairs.

Actually, no.

As was documented earlier, the only extraordinary circumstances here are the amount of publicity, the amount of appeals the parents have made, the intervention of Gov. Bush and Congress, and the long period over which this has been dragged out.

The legal issues are quiet well settled and people are allowed to die under similar circumstances every day.

So it is another one of the media's attempt for more viewers by making someone look like an evil manical person

Ok, here is my 2 cents:

1. Schiavo is being kept alive against her will. If I were a person in a vegetative state like that I would want to die ASAP instead of suffer.

2. The death process for her is painless and quiet. No pain also.

3. And why is Gov. Bush so concerned about her, when their is many people being executed on death row in Florida. It just makes so sense, but their is only a one word answer to that: REPUBLICAN.

4. And no when Schiavo dies, her husband won't get the insurance money because according to numerous reports he has used the insurance money they were going to get to admit Schiavo into treatments & surguries.

So much for me trying to be the voice of reason.

At least you tried.

Alwell. This is it anyway. To bad. At least when this is all said and done, we can finally get back to real issues such as foreign affairs.

Ethics and morality are things that define nations and society. Debating these things is just as important as e.g. the Iraq war.
After all, if people within your nation cannot even understand their fellow countrymens point of view, how can they even hope to understand the foreigner ?

But she CAN'T respond. Unbiased doctors from the court were sent to investigate that. If she could respond, there wouldn't be an arguement over whether her body should be allowed to die or not.

Here is the report from one of the 3 court appointed doctors. Of the other 2, one agreed with him and the other disagreed. 2 of 3 of the court appointed neurologists believed that she was not in a vegetative state and could improve with proper care and therapy. This report also mentions anomalies in her physical state that could possibly be the result of abuse. He also notated that she had been denied treatment for urinary tract infection, which could also contribute to neurological disorders. I've posted this link numerous times. Maybe if you took the time to read it, you would have a better understanding of peoples' horror at what is happening.

http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Hammesfahrexam.htm

Here is the report from one of the 3 court appointed doctors.

IIRC Hammesfahr was chosen by the parents, and was not the court appointed doctor.

Here is the report from one of the 3 court appointed doctors. Of the other 2, one agreed with him and the other disagreed. 2 of 3 of the court appointed neurologists believed that she was not in a vegetative state and could improve with proper care and therapy. This report also mentions anomalies in her physical state that could possibly be the result of abuse. He also notated that she had been denied treatment for urinary tract infection, which could also contribute to neurological disorders. I've posted this link numerous times. Maybe if you took the time to read it, you would have a better understanding of peoples' horror at what is happening.

http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Hammesfahrexam.htm

I've read it. And he was not a court-appointed doctor. In this particular round of medical evaluations (it is only one of several), the court had each side select 2 doctors and the court appointed one. Dr. Hammesfahr was one of the 2 doctors selected by the Schindlers. The two doctors selected by Mr. Schiavo and the court-appointed doctor all agreed that Mrs. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state without hope of recovery.

As I posted when you raised this farce in another thread:

Dr. Hammesfhar is a fake. He testified during an October 2002 court hearing on the Schiavo case that his claim to be a Nobel nominee is based on a letter written by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) recommending him for the prize. But Bilirakis is not qualified to make a valid nomination under the Nobel rules. So Hammesfar is not really a Nobel nominee. He is, instead, a liar.

In February 2003, the Florida Board of Medicine ruled that he violated state law by charging a patient for services that were not provided. The board fined Hammesfahr $2,000, placed him on probation for six months, and ordered him to pay approximately $52,000 in administrative costs and to perform 100 hours of community service. The board also ruled that Hammesfahr's treatment of stroke patients, using a procedure he has claimed could help Terri Schiavo, was "not within the generally accepted standard of care."

An October 23, 2002, Tampa Tribune article reported that during an October 2002 hearing, George Felos, attorney for Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo, questioned Hammesfahr's qualifications, noting that he "charges cash for treatments and advertises himself as a nominee for a Nobel Prize based on a letter his congressman wrote to the Nobel committee." An October 25, 2003, St. Petersburg Times article noted that Greer, who presided over the hearing, called Hammesfahr a "self-promoter" who "offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no test results to support his claim" that he had treated patients worse off than Terri Schiavo.

In October 2001, a Florida appellate court ruled that five doctors should examine Terri Schiavo, all of whom testified at the October 2002 hearing, along with her attending physician. Hammesfahr was one of two doctors chosen by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler. Two others were chosen by Michael Schiavo, and one was appointed by the court. An October 17, 2002, Philadelphia Inquirer article noted that while Hammesfahr and the other doctor chosen by the Schindlers claimed that Terri Schiavo could be helped, her attending physician, the court-appointed physician, and the doctors selected by Michael Schiavo all stated that her condition would not improve.

i found this story....while not exact to the schiavo case, it has similarities.
its just an example of the remarkable abilities of the brain and the love of family who are WILLING to put in time and effort to rehabilitate.



By ROXANA HEGEMAN

HUTCHINSON, Kan. (AP) - For 20 years, Sarah Scantlin has been mostly oblivious to the world around her - the victim of a drunken driver who struck her down as she walked to her car. Today, after a remarkable recovery, she can talk again.

Scantlin's father knows she will never fully recover, but her newfound ability to speak and her returning memories have given him his daughter back. For years, she could only blink her eyes - one blink for "no," two blinks for "yes" - to respond to questions that no one knew for sure she understood.

"I am astonished how primal communication is. It is a key element of humanity," Jim Scantlin said, blinking back tears.

Sarah Scantlin was an 18-year-old college freshman on Sept. 22, 1984, when she was hit by a drunk driver as she walked to her car after celebrating with friends at a teen club. That week, she had been hired at an upscale clothing store and won a spot on the drill team at Hutchinson Community College.

After two decades of silence, she began talking last month. Doctors are not sure why. On Saturday, Scantlin's parents hosted an open house at her nursing home to introduce her to friends, family members and reporters.

A week ago, her parents got a call from Jennifer Trammell, a licensed nurse at the Golden Plains Health Care Center. She asked Betsy Scantlin if she was sitting down, told her someone wanted to talk to her and switched the phone to speaker mode:

"Hi, Mom."

"Sarah, is that you?" her mother asked.

"Yes," came the throaty reply.

"How are you doing?"

"Fine."

"Do you need anything," her mother asked her later.

"More makeup."

"Did she just say more makeup?" the mother asked the nurse.

Scantlin still suffers constantly from the effects of the accident. She habitually crosses her arms across her chest, her fists clenched under her chin. Her legs constantly spasm and thrash. Her right foot is so twisted it is almost reversed. Her neck muscles are so constricted she cannot swallow to eat. [Presumably, then, she needs a feeding tube. mb]

The driver who struck Scantlin served six months in jail for driving under the influence and leaving the scene of an accident.

Scantlin started talking in mid-January but asked staff members not to tell her parents until Valentine's Day to surprise them, Trammell said. But last week she could not wait any longer to talk to them.

"I didn't think it would ever happen, it had been so long," Betsy Scantlin said.

Scantlin's doctor, Bradley Scheel, said physicians are not sure why she suddenly began talking but believe critical pathways in the brain may have regenerated.

"It is extremely unusual to see something like this happen," Scheel said.

The breakthrough came when the nursing home's activity director, Pat Rincon, was working with Scantlin and a small group of other patients, trying to get them to speak.

Rincon had her back to Scantlin while she worked with another resident. She had just gotten that resident to reply "OK," when she suddenly heard Sarah behind her also repeat the words: "OK. OK."

Staff members brought in a speech therapist and intensified their work with Sarah. They did not want to get her parents' hopes up until they were sure Sarah would not relapse, Trammell said.

On Saturday, Scantlin seemed at times overwhelmed by the attention. Dressed in a blue warm-up suit, she spoke little, mostly answering questions in a single word.

Is she happy she can talk? "Yeah," she replied.

What does she tell her parents when they leave? "I love you," she said.

Family members say Scantlin's understanding of the outside world comes mostly from news and soap operas that played on the television in her room.

On Saturday, her brother asked whether she knew what a CD was. Sarah said she did, and she knew it had music on it.

But when he asked her how old she was, Sarah guessed she was 22. When her brother gently told her she was 38 years old now, she just stared silently back at him. The nurses say she thinks it is still the 1980s.

Her father, Jim Scantlin, understands that Sarah will probably never leave the health care center, but he is grateful for her improvement.

"This place is her home ... They have given me my daughter back," he said. (em. added)

i found this story....while not exact to the schiavo case, it has similarities.
*snip*

Apples and oranges.

Unlike Mrs. Schiavo, Ms. Scantlin was never in a persistent vegetative state.

Here are a couple things your version of the story left out that appear in a CBS news version (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/11/earlyshow/main673281.shtml):

For years, she could only blink her eyes — one blink for "no," two blinks for "yes" — to respond to questions that no one knew for sure she understood.

...

She had been aware of her surroundings but unable to make any sounds other than loud crying until a month ago, when she told staff members, "OK, OK."

...

Sarah's father told The Early Show co-anchor Harry Smith in a separate interview that his daughter had been "basically unresponsive, in the regular sense of the word 'alert.' She was able to do eye contact and was very aware of her surroundings, but otherwise, physically, she was completely incapable of doing anything."

Sarah's mother, Betsy Scantlin, says Sarah actually started to make some noises a couple of years ago. "We didn't have any idea what that meant," she said to Smith. "We just knew it was a noise that she hadn't made for 18 years, and the people -- it's kind of like having a baby. You kind of learn to know the sounds, and they could kind of tell whether she wanted her TV changed or she was hurting or something, but otherwise, nothing."

here kitty, kitty...


as you will see in my above statement, i said that it wasnt quite like to schiavo case. it is merely a story of hope.

I'm going to make one more statement and then I'm walking away from this. Frankly, this whole situation has struck me very deeply and personally, and I find that I am being drained emotionally. I can't take any more.

4 years ago I was faced with a similar situation and some serious decisions had to be made. At that time, if my loved one had shown any responsiveness, or if even one doctor had thought there was any hope at all, I would have done everything that Terri's parents have done. Spousal love does not always sustain. Over half of the marriages end in divorce and often with bitterness and hatred. A parent's love is unconditional and forever...no matter what. Argue that this woman needs to die...whatever. But, if there is even one tiny small glimmer of hope, then this death is a moral and judicial crime.

Carry on with your righteous claims to know what this woman wants and what is best for her. I'm not going to argue with my heart anymore.

Well, its over it looks like.

*prepares for the slu of lawsuites that are sure to follow*

here kitty, kitty...


as you will see in my above statement, i said that it wasnt quite like to schiavo case. it is merely a story of hope.

"Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil, and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well." -- Missy Dizick

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

"Those who will play with cats must expect to get scratched." -- Miguel de Cervantes

(In addition to being responsive to the first part of your post, these quotes are as relevant to the Schiavo case as the story of Ms. Scantlin.)

A parent's love is unconditional and forever...no matter what. Argue that this woman needs to die...whatever. But, if there is even one tiny small glimmer of hope, then this death is a moral and judicial crime.

Do we live on the same planet? Parents love is not ALWAYS unconditional

Do we live on the same planet? Parents love is not ALWAYS unconditional

I wouldn't have said that if I were you.

You are 100% wrong!

I'm going to make one more statement and then I'm walking away from this. Frankly, this whole situation has struck me very deeply and personally, and I find that I am being drained emotionally. I can't take any more.

4 years ago I was faced with a similar situation and some serious decisions had to be made. At that time, if my loved one had shown any responsiveness, or if even one doctor had thought there was any hope at all, I would have done everything that Terri's parents have done. Spousal love does not always sustain. Over half of the marriages end in divorce and often with bitterness and hatred. A parent's love is unconditional and forever...no matter what. Argue that this woman needs to die...whatever. But, if there is even one tiny small glimmer of hope, then this death is a moral and judicial crime.

Carry on with your righteous claims to know what this woman wants and what is best for her. I'm not going to argue with my heart anymore.

I appreciate your passion and I am sorry this distresses you.

I respond in an attempt not to argue but to make clear that I do not feel Mrs. Schiavo "needs to die."

Nor do I pretend to have personal knowledge what Ms. Schiavo wants or what is best for her. To the contrary, I cannot abide those who do not know Ms. Schiavo and do not know the facts of her situation, but think they know what is best for her better than her husband, the guardians ad litem and every court from the Florida trial court up to the Supreme Court.

As there is no glimmer of hope here, Mr. Schiavo and the system are making the same choice you apparently did. The parents have said they want Mrs. Schiavo forcibly kept alive -- even if they knew it against her will and there was no chance of recovery. Their emotional response heart-wrenching and somewhat understandable, but they are wrong. And the public interference is not helping the situation.

I hope you are soon at peace over this. :)

Do we live on the same planet? Parents love is not ALWAYS unconditional
Well, that explains a lot. :rolleyes:

Do we live on the same planet? Parents love is not ALWAYS unconditional

DO NOT presume to tell me the depth of a parent's love. I don't know what your story is, but, for myself, and everyone I know, there is no purer or more unending love than the love you feel for your child. It is the one emotion that makes the welfare of another a priority to our own. So please, do not presume to know what is in peoples' hearts.

DO NOT presume to tell me the depth of a parent's love. I don't know what your story is, but, for myself, and everyone I know, there is no purer or more unending love than the love you feel for your child. It is the one emotion that makes the welfare of another a priority to our own. So please, do not presume to know what is in peoples' hearts.
I could sit around pointing out examples, but I won't because arguing with you obviously doesn't work anyway

And at any rate, I have seen no reasons presented why a feeding tube shouldn't be removed. If she can swallow and live without it, why does she need a feeding tube?

DO NOT presume to tell me the depth of a parent's love. I don't know what your story is, but, for myself, and everyone I know, there is no purer or more unending love than the love you feel for your child. It is the one emotion that makes the welfare of another a priority to our own. So please, do not presume to know what is in peoples' hearts.

You tell him Zooke!