NationStates Jolt Archive

Can I have
1 Israel+Palestine
2 Jordan
3 Syria
4 Iraq
5 Kouait

I too am producing the Enfield. Thats the one I was thinking of last night, but coulden't remember. Haven't studided Post-Napoleanic/Pre-WWI history in a while.

EDIT: Anyone think of an appropriate standing army for my nation? I have plans to have a rather large navy for all of my colonial holdings.

Well, if everyone is so willing to jump into 1861-1870 tech trees in 1850...
I suppose it would be only fair that I hop on the bandwagon.

Wait till 1866 tech rolls by, then I can play with the Chassepot... oh wait, it just did...
Fired at nearly 14 rouinds per minute... And could loft bullets nearly 3000 meters at 27 degrees of elevation. (3 bullets in the air before the first one hits the ground)
And I could chamber it for .50/45-70 gov't (70 denotes powder charge, not year)

Hence the unfair advantage if I were to decide there is no difference between 1850 and 1866.
It would be like pulling a T-55s SLBMs, and B-52s out of nowhere on D-day...
(All the technology existed by that time, such as rockets fired from the USS Wahoo on Japan, Nuclear weapons, Jetr powered bombers, and the T-55 was essentailly an improved T-44 which was in turn a modified T-34/85 mounting a 100 mm gun which existed at that time)

I would recommend you follow it as well.
Unless you want me making M-61 20 mm chain-cannons by 1875...

Hmm almost 1880 lol.

I am going to use my Red coats. Lol. Cour you agreed to an alliance right?

Well, if everyone is so willing to jump into 1861-1870 tech trees in 1850...
I suppose it would be only fair that I hop on the bandwagon.

Wait till 1866 tech rolls by, then I can play with the Chassepot... oh wait, it just did...
Fired at nearly 14 rouinds per minute... And could loft bullets nearly 3000 meters at 27 degrees of elevation.
And I could chamber it for .50/45-70 gov't (70 denotes powder charge, not year)

Hence the unfair advantage if I were to decide there is no difference between 1850 and 1866.
It would be like pulling a T-55 and B-52 out of nowhere on D-day...
I would recommend you follow it as well.

You said the Snider/Enfield was used in limited numbers in 1861, what was to stop me from mass producing them for my rather limited army. If we were to jump forward as you have suggested, then I could use the Chassepot

You said the Snider/Enfield was used in limited numbers in 1861, what was to stop me from mass producing them for my rather limited army. If we were to jump forward as you have suggested, then I could use the Chassepot

Chassepot is 1866-1867, not 1861.

In 1861, the primary british weapon was still the P53 rifled musket.

There is a difference between "waiting for it to come out before RPing your nation" and "making it before it was actually invented".

Pick one, pick a year, and try to stick to it. If the former, I'll have 16 IC years to RP without worrying about you. If the latter, see above edit, 1875 won't be pretty.

Electric blasting capas and motors were invented in 1875, smokeless powder bacame copmmon in 1874, brass cartridges in 1865.

Solution: Take a gatling, strap an electric motor, add ETC ignition via a distributor, condensor, and contacts.

Who needs a maxim when you have GAU-8s and RPG-2s?
Not a garantee of course. I do have morals/ethics.
------
Is there an IC? And if so, what year is it at right now?

What I meant was...

If we are Rping the late 1850's/early 1860's as suggested then I will pick the Snider-Enfield. If not and we do the mid 1850's then I will gladly use the P53 but it also means we cannot use Gatlings or Ironclads which other people have expressed a desire to do so.

And I think you've overblown this issue completely

I say early 1850s. Why? Because there were no ironclads yet, no rapid fire or loading times, where soldiers wore their wonderful colourful uniforms, and where soldiers lined up for a good old kick ass salvo.

I'm not kidding, that's why I like the early 19th century style of warfare. :rolleyes:

Either that or the 1860s. Since it was the introduction of the Gatling Gun and the Ironclads, but they were still not used widely. Any further up the timeline though wold be just... not as hip? lol Anyhow that what I think the timeline should be. Either 1850 or 1860.

I'llt ry to fit you in, see if I can do it right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap1.jpg
Dark Red-Kilani
Light-brown Romandeos
Dark Green-Shakal
Yellow-Alversia
Purple-Canland
Sky Blue-Kanami
Brown-Carloginias
Red-Sendersdale
Green- Nuevo-Italia
Teal-[NS]Corbournne
Sea green- Angermanland

Don't forget me. I'm Orange

I agree with Sendersdale

Early 1850s'll do me.
No Ironclads and no Gatlings

OCC:could i get in on this comrade?

OCC:could i get in on this comrade?

Can't see why not

i'm not on the map

i'm not on the map

Well we don't update the maps on the spot you know...

To Carloginias: here are some good infantry images.
Napoleonic brit (http://www.longago.com/040color.jpg)
Infantry circa 1890 (http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/gold-fleece/10.jpeg)
infantry during anglo zulu war of 1870 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ef/Zulusmall.jpg/250px-Zulusmall.jpg)
More (http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/images/dhm560.jpg)

and then of course, various indian regiments (http://www.princelystates.com/ArchivedFeatures/fa-01-02b.shtml)

Don't forget me. I'm Orange

My apologies


Orange-Aqua Anu

EDIT:
New brittonia, just be patient, I'll post an updated map after North calaveras makes his claim

and as for the time of the RP, any time during the 1850's is good with me, that way I can keep all my army information =P

What are the tactics of the 1850's? Is it still 'line up and shoot' formations or are more flexible tactics coming into it?

Well here are some of my pictures:

Soldier and Officer 1 (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v2_c7_s08_ss00_03.jpg)
Officer (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/med/v2_c4_s12_ss01_01.jpg)
Officer and Gunner (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v2_c5_s05_ss02_01.jpg)
Calvary (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v2_c5_s10_ss02_01.jpg)
Soldier and Officer 2 (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v2_c5_s22_ss01_01.jpg)
Hussars (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v3_c1_s05_ss03_01.jpg)
Artiller Officer and Gunner (http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v3_c1_s02_ss01_01.jpg)
Soldiers in Action (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Battle_of_Saint-Denis.jpg)

Pretty much line up and shoot still. Prussian King.. Fredrick the Great has a pretty good war guide as to what units are used for and some tactics.

Right

As all images of my soldiers are b/w I need to say the colour of the uniform is dark green

can you go to my thread, it is 1632 and it is on the front page, and leave some feedback.

True enough, I suppose.

spam much?

Anyways, for tactics, it's not all line-up and shoot... just mostly, think to the First indian war for independence, 1858, or the mexican american war.

Oh, almost forgot

To Sendersdale, nice army! nice to see some other people hopping on the Shako train =P

spam much?

fine, i'll try to segaway it in the topic

Speaking of history. . . .

LOL

anyway, diid you even see it?

So it's not all 'line up and shoot' but that is the common tactic?...

...damn

Karl V Clauswitz didn't publish his work until 1873 so I'm screwed on that respect.
Lucky me, Sun Tzu still had his bestsellers in circulation...
Crap, first english translation in 1910... *Gets Chinese-English dictionary*

Most tactics would be similar to those seen in the early American wars.
Mostly bercause that is where most of my historical military research was centered between 1750 and 1890.

French and Indian War
Revolution
1812
Subduing the Seminole/trail of tears
American Civil War

I also studied a tad of Napoleanic an British-African war tactics, plus 'simple' native tactics of the Zulu, Soix, Arapaho, and Seminoles.

And hunting practices of those times.
*Gets a 'hanger', stabs a moose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanger_%28weapon%29

I'llt ry to fit you in, see if I can do it right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap1.jpg
Dark Red-Kilani
Light-brown Romandeos
Dark Green-Shakal
Yellow-Alversia
Purple-Canland
Sky Blue-Kanami
Brown-Carloginias
Red-Sendersdale
Green- Nuevo-Italia
Teal-[NS]Corbournne
Sea green- Angermanland

err, not quite. see that empty territory to my south west there? i should have that, not the sticky out one in the east. if you look Very closely, that long narrow sticky out bit is a separate territory, that borders 'Mexico' and cuts me off from the coast.

also, what era are we actually playing in? Napolionic is muzzle loaders. American civil war is breach loaders. various Gatling gun equivalents [most not very good] crop up some time between the two, i believe.

also, a Gatling gun would show up as regimental artillery, at the lowest. you'd never see it at company or squad level. they're not even HMGs in this era, but full out artillery in their own right.

also, even if ironclads are non-viable, steam ships started showing up during the Napoleonic wars [even if, so far as i know, none of the major powers took advantage of this militarily at the time], and pretty much Anyone could come up with the timber-clad [wiki it if you want], if they had the wood to spare.

heh. the main thing to remember regarding breech loaders, the good ones allowed a soldier to fire, briefly, 60 rounds a minute. I'm not sure Exactly when those were used, and it sacrificed accuracy and range to do so [later bolt and lever action rifles fired more slowly, but still pretty fast and a lot more effectivly]. one of the advantages of the bandoleer was that it actually allowed such rapid reload times, bullets being loaded into the gun straight off the bandoleer it's self.

or so my reading some time ago tells me. i could have a lot of these details wrong, and i was never much good with dates.

any who, so long as i know what i can and cannot do, it doesn't worry me much :)

When is this going to start?

So it's not all 'line up and shoot' but that is the common tactic?...

...damn
Well, I haven't studied much about 19th century tactics, but from what I heard, generally that tactic worked best in Europe, as it's all fields. While in North America, it wouldn't do as good because of the terrain. Simply put, in North America, take a lesson from the Natives. Guerilla warfare is the way to go (someone correct me if I'm wrong, like I said, I didn't study much about tactics).

An example of this is (well not really an examle just thought it was funny):

The Americans won the Revolution through guerilla warfare, but lost the War of 1812 through guerilla warfare.

Irony of that huh.


To Sendersdale, nice army! nice to see some other people hopping on the Shako train =P
Yep, nothing better then the Shako ;) (well maybe the Pickelhaube, that German helmet...)

Those pictures were of Canadian militia and British Regulars stationed in Canada during the 1850s' (you would think there would be more Red Coats).

Pretty sure you have bondoliers confused with ammo belts.

Back in Gustav's day, it was about 12 pre-measured capsules and balls for their flintlocks on something resembling a necklace.

A bondolier tended to be a cartridge pouch on a sling, and generally held 20 paper cartridges by 1850's.

An ammo belt was a strip of cloth or leather with a series of individual loops that held individual cartridges, and found use in early machine-guns, or as a means to reloadsingle shot weapons or firearms that only let you reload one shot at a time, like the Like the Remmington Model 44 revolver (solid frame, had a loading gate, limiting extraction/loading to ne case at a time) or many early single shot breachloaders.

Ammo belts became popular for a time because they held more ammo, and ditriduted wieght better.

Chargers or stripper clips are what sped up reloading times. The problem was that ammo belts couldn't carry them.

It is possable to fire at a rate of 600 RPM so long as the 6 shot clip of a revolver lasts... Or 12 rounds in 3 seconds from a 6 shot revolver (using moon clips/speed loaders, so that's cheating)...
---
Yes, the gatling and all its descendents have, to the best of my knowledge, been treated more like artillery than an actual machine-gun.
---
Heh, ironwood, and my territory has lots of it...
Better ask nicely...

*Oh, you're talking of the militrouse?
Franco-Prussian war.
Dreyse needle gun vs Rifled Musket.
Led to the development of the Chassepot, and the French adoption of the American Gatling.
=========
As for tactics, cleared areas was the 'civillived' place to fight in. There were plenty of wooded fields.
But a few cannonballs smashing trees down discouraged this a little.

Back in that day, you coud actually ask the enemy what time they'd like to fight. Like right after lunch...

Or you could go savage on them and make them into savages in turn...

Me, I'm in the south pacific, you really think I'll fight a 'civillised war' with them Europeans?

ahh, you're right, I'm probably getting the terms confused.

as for speeding reloads, it was some sort of rifle that used a sliding block or some such... the reason the method of carrying ammunition sped it up was because rather than having to fumble for the bullet, then push it in, ready everything, raise it, an fire, one lent forward and pushed the back of the bullet out of the ammo belt [or whatever] and straight into the mechanism, then back and brought it up to fire in one motion. basically, far less actions = more bullets in the gun quicker.

of course, that same sliding block produced a number of problems... less range, less penetration, and so on.

anywho.

so far as tactics go, i like being clever. one uses lines to put out 'massive' firepower, sure, but one takes advantage of terrain too... which would result in forming a line just behind the crest of a hill, advancing to fire the volly, then withdrawing back behind it to reload, if one is useing muzzle loaders. breech loaders, of course, one would form line in the prone position along the top of the hill :)

if one is clever, tactics depend on terrain and enemy. in open ground, linear formations are the order of the day at this point, but whenever terrain gives advantage to other forms of combat, they should be abandoned :)

the Maori were particularly adept at siege and trench warfare, for example. [at least on the defensive], while the north American tribes focused primarily on mobility. neither had much faith in linear tactics. [it should be noted that the 'rebels' generally kicked major butt against government forces. (as neither side was wholly Maori or European, let alone British). the government forces useually attempted to use linear tactics, against fortified positions, in hills and bush terrain. yeah. much fail. militia and naval units on the government side tended to do a lot better. hehe.]

hummm. i'm thinking mounted infantry and fortifications are going to be the order of the day for me, somehow. .... are railways useful and available yet? i suck at dates :S

Hi, all. What's been happening since I was here last? It seems to me some interesting dicussions have been taking place here.

~ Romandeos.

i'm thinking mounted infantry and fortifications are going to be the order of the day for me, somehow. .... are railways useful and available yet? i suck at dates :S

Railways are coming out. Its easily plausible to have them.

With rimmed brass?

Railways were just starting to boom.
First tactical use of railraods was in the American Civil war, 1861 [June 16th].

Was used to great effect in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war as well.

Such practical locomotives existed as early as 1837...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-4-0
They became extremely popular by 1840-1860 depending on where you were.
By 1850-1890, they were made into what many peple think of when they hear "Frontier Steam Locomotive"
Though the 4-6-0 layout was better, it came much later. The 4-4-0 is what helped fuel the American westward expansion.

I'm not 100% sure on advanced tactics, but I do know that once you get a division or two rapid firing volleys of Black powder during the battle of Wilderness, it looked and smelled like someone just dropped half a ton of white phospherous down there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_wilderness

One could tell where the soldiers fell at Chancellorsville during Spottsylvania, as the nutrient rich blood made the flowers and poppies more vibrant. Plus the bleached white bones gave it away...
I have photoes (yes, cameras existed back then)

Smoke made confusion, an entire regiment was lost without a trace.
Fire trapped and killed many (a firefight in a forest fire isn't fun)
Then came the wild boars... They ate the wounded at night...
If one is willing, I could give a rather detailed account of that battle...
What Wiki doesn't tell you is that the union troops were caught trying to cross the Rapidam river...

Best advice an NCO gave:
"Do not pick up anything except food and tobacco, while you are on the march. Get a hold of all the food you can. Cut haversacks from dead men. Steal from the infantry if you can. Let your aim be to secure food and food and still more food, and keep your eyes open for tobacco. Do not look at clothing shoes or blankets. You can always draw those from the quartermaster. Stick your gun through thick and thin. Do not straggle. Fill your canteen at every stream we cross, and wherever you get the chance elsewhere. Never wash your feet until the day's march is over. If you do, you'll surely blister.Leave your permement camp where it is, you may need it once the snow flies."
Sgt 'Jellet' to Pvt Frank Wilkeson
Union Artillery, 'Brandy Station'
3 May 1864
10 miles North of the Rapidam River
Sure enough, over 20,000 to 30,000 USD in 1864 value where thrown down by tired infantry at the river crossings, to be picked up by the artillerymen.

Well, I haven't studied much about 19th century tactics, but from what I heard, generally that tactic worked best in Europe, as it's all fields. While in North America, it wouldn't do as good because of the terrain. Simply put, in North America, take a lesson from the Natives. Guerilla warfare is the way to go (someone correct me if I'm wrong, like I said, I didn't study much about tactics).

An example of this is (well not really an examle just thought it was funny):

The Americans won the Revolution through guerilla warfare, but lost the War of 1812 through guerilla warfare.

Irony of that huh.

The Americans actually won the Revolution when the French came over and helped them win 'European' battles. In the American Civil War, the terrain also led to a less prominent role of cavalry as shock troops and saw them more in a screening and recon role.

The Americans actually won the Revolution when the French came over and helped them win 'European' battles. In the American Civil War, the terrain also led to a less prominent role of cavalry as shock troops and saw them more in a screening and recon role.

Indeed. This is also why pretty much every American horse cavalry unit was light, best classed as dragoons, right up until we replaced horses with things like trucks, tanks, and later, APCs and IFVs.

By the way, I've seen mention of using the Lee-Enfield as a combat rifle here in some posts. I did some looking, and the Lee-Enfield didn't come about until late in the 1890s; 1895, to be exact.

I quote Wikipedia:

"It replaced the earlier Martini-Henry, Martini-Enfield, and Lee-Metford rifles, and although officially replaced in the UK with the L1A1 SLR in 1956, it continues to see official service in a number of British Commonwealth nations to the present day, notably with the Indian Police."

~ Romandeos.

Not the Lee, the Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifled Musket...
Later converted to the Snider Enfield Pattern in 1861-1867, which then saw use up until 1875.

You can wiki them if you'd like. They exist.
The issue is whether an 1861 converssion of an 1853 rifle is legal for 1850.

The Martini-Henry cartridge was a bottlenecked Snider-Enfield...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfield_1853_Rifled_Musket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry

Not the Lee, the Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifled Musket...
Later converted to the Snider Enfield Pattern in 1861-1867, which then saw use up until 1910.

You can wiki them if you'd like. They exist.
The issue is whether an 1861 converssion of an 1853 rifle is legal for 1850.

The Martini-Henry cartridge was a bottlenecked Snider-Enfield...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfield_1853_Rifled_Musket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry

I know about the Snider, HT. I just mistook what you were talking about. I'd have to guess it would be allowed given the short difference in time periods, but that's just me. Where the devil is Cazelia? When is this starting?

~ Romandeos.

I suppose we could start writing factbooks, and start making IC threads with an [1850s RP] header on the title...

I suppose we could start writing factbooks, and start making IC threads with an [1850s RP] header on the title...

I expect we could...but I'd just as soon have him officially start things. If this RP collapses I will start one up, but only if I am completely certain this thread is stalled. I'll begin writing out my basic national factbook. I've got a good idea how Romandeos was in this time period.

~ Romandeos

my claims are-
British Columbia
Alberta
Nunavaut (is that how you spell it?)
Alaska

and here is the IC thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12799114#post12799114

my claims are-
British Columbia
Alberta
Nunavaut (is that how you spell it?)
Alaska

and here is the IC thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12799114#post12799114

It's started! Caezlia, I could hug you...but I won't, because I'm really antisocial.

In any case, what's the backstory behind this again? Cazelian revolution and colonial wars, wasn't it?

~ Romandeos.

The Americans actually won the Revolution when the French came over and helped them win 'European' battles. In the American Civil War, the terrain also led to a less prominent role of cavalry as shock troops and saw them more in a screening and recon role.
What I meant was, that the Americans fought the British through guerilla warfare and won, while the British won the War of 1812 through guerilla warfare.

Of course that isn't the primary reason why they won, but it was a factor, a factor relating to the previous point, which is why I mentioned it. Just to say though, I said that only for the irony and hilarity of it, not to actually prove a point.

By the way, you forgot the Spanish.

heh. Cavalry use in New Zealand:

1 cavalry charge.

messengers.

that's it. ever :D

of course, on the other hand NZ fielded mounted rifle units in one of the boer[sp] wars and i think in ww1. they're a sort of cavalry... kind of.

anyways. I'm sure the info's there, but i couldn't really figure out what population I'd have... anyone got any ideas?

i think i'm going to have to have a closer look at my atlas too... i get the feeling i claimed some good grain/cattle land... and a lot of desert... heh.

anyway, i'll get to work on a factbook, though i can't complete it until i know my population. i think railways are gonna be a big deal in my nation.

ahh, research, how i loath it. oh well. gotta go investigate weaponary available as well. joy.

Right, My army uses the Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifled Musket converted to breech-loaders after research on the Needle-Gun.

My fleet is made up of vessels like this one
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/HMSAgamemnon2.jpg

Launched in 1952, she carries 81 guns and a speed of 12 knots under steam.

Is she too modern?

Updated map
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap2.jpg


Also, just double checking, is it all right if I RP a nation other than my own? as my own nation is occupied on this map.

Andmy army will be using the Pattern 1853 enfield while my ships will be like this

http://www.csa-dixie.com/liverpool_dixie/newgif/seaking.jpg

What nation were you thinking of?

... i re-create my nation for just about every "earth" style RP i get involved in. just call it "non-cannon" and it's all good. heh.

one of these days i'm actually going to do a non-earth and/or MT rp....

There's still a slight discrepancy between Ukrainian Makhnovist revolutionaries in the modern times, and a south American nation in the 1850s >.>

heh. well, lets see... Angermanland has, so far, been located in *thinks* New Zealand, Russia, some unidentified star systems, mostly-Scotland, northern Europe [called the Anj Reich and with a large colonial empire at the time, mind] and probably one or two other places :)

call it an alternate universe :D

it's impossible to get involved in multipul 'earths' and have a consistent history anyway.


edit: and i am randomly reminded; just once i'd like to actually have a clue what's where in my nation. do we have any competent cartographers involved in this RP?

Here's one here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...0Worldmap1.jpg

THis is going to be fun.

I can help! Unfortunately all I have is MS paint, regardless I can still try to make you a map!

anyways I think I'll just avoid being russians in south america, in hindsight I should have claimed alaska, british columbia, luhansk, kamchatka, and yukon, and just called it a russian colony =P C'est la vie, thus is life. I'll be a colonial/now independant commonwealth of the Carloginian empire, Nova Bolivaria, under Dom João Gonçalves I.

If that sounds good I'll post about invading Uruguay and sending an explorer to the dark continent and begin butche....Trading with the natives >_>

What is our tech factor? As in, is most industry stationed in Europe/America?

i'm figuring most industry is wherever the heck the players want to industrialize. to a point. i mean, at this point it's all steam powered [electricity is around, if i've got my facts straight, and useful for things like telegraphs, but it's not good enough to replace steam engines and gas lamps on a large scale yet] so a factory needs access to coal and water to run, as well as the raw materials for whatever it's processing, and iron to build.


hey, even a paint map would be better than no map :D rockies to the west, mexico to the south, canada to the north... and in the east my control just sort of petters out towards the missisipy :D

this means i got the colarado river, which is good. i'm sort of working up a fact book as i get information. it's currently woefully inadiquate [i still have No idea how many people i should have, for example, and there are a lot of raw materials where i've just said 'screw it, presumably i have a way of getting them"]

it's also 4:12 am. yay for not sleeping :)

Yeah, and terrain also factors in there, For instance I will have one of the better economies because of all the gold/silver in the Andes, which I happen to control, I also control some of the better land in South America, the plains of agentina, and some of the pampas. I think I also have enough rainforest in bolivia to log, but I don't know if I have the technological capabilities to log the rainforest extensively.

of course, the problem with gold and silver mines is this: they're only useful if you use them to mint new coins.

minting new coins, as a rule, puts more coins into circulation, one way or another...

more coins means each is worth less

which means more are charged for the same thing

thus inflation.

[inflation in excess of 120% per annum plus a perminantly bankrupt state do not for a viable nation make... i learn't That playing as Mecklemburg in Europa Universalis 3. ended up minting huge amounts of coins to finance the colonizeation of canada so as to keep myself alive in the face of repeated invasions and a woeful lack of income.... if there were a way to re-value the currency once i stabalized everything it would have worked great. unfortunatly, there wasn't, so i was dealing with insane inflation. joy.

anyway, my point there is that gold and silver mines don't nessicaraly mean a good economy. iron, coal, useful things like that, combined with a demand for them and plentiful food... those make for a good economy :) gold and silver just make for wealth. [well, until the later half of the 1900s, where somewhere along the way people start finding practical uses for the old shiny objects :p]

edit: on a different note, you're right. terrain matters. the colerado river, for example, makes industrialization a lot easier for me than it might otherwise be.

*Is glad I got rich-India/Australia*

Ironically, I am going to start an European conference about what to do with Africa. Gonna let everything simmer a bit before I do. I don't want my first post in this entire rp to be "OOOOOOO LOOK AT ME I OWN THE WORLD" I am gonna work on building my economy on the first few posts.. and how are we going to gauge our economies?

The mines let me ship gold internationally though, which should hopefully giveme plenty of lee-way to buy things I don't have much of, and help stimulate my economy through the exporting of my precious metals. Plus as I mentioned I have the plains of Argentina under my control and some of the pampas, I should be able to support a good cattle industry for food production, as well as, I believe being able to farm cereals and what have you.

it is kinda hard to do... mostly the trick is to stop thinking in dollar terms. you gotta look at it from a logistics point of view rather than a profit point of view, you know?

to paraphrase a certain pirate: there are only two rules that matter. what you can do, and what you can't do.

so.. yeah... if your people are eating well, you're industries and raw materials facilities [fancy name for farms and mines :D] are ticking over nicely, you're not in debt, and you're keeping inflation down....

your economy's doing well :)

heh. 'course, if we were clever, we'd get someone to make an EU3 mod for the RP and go from there. [paradox games being basically this kind of thing in a more structured setup. admitedly eu3 kinda stops being quite realistic the moment the first person hits a tech level equivilant to about 1710, but still. heh. it's a Mod, why not? :D but this is very off topic]

that's my thoughts for the moment, anyway.

We need to base all of our shipping capacities, economies, military capacity, and all of that on something.

population is an important base figure.

as is technology.


after that, everything becomes kinda vague and gets to the point where basically, if you can justify it reasonably well, you can probably do it. :p

any kind of infrastructure will help your economy, though it's rarely profitable in it's own right. railways and cannals to ship raw materials around, for example. telegraphs allow for better communication, and thus more efficiant governance [and less corruption as a result] which helps. good roads make for faster troop movement...

there are so very many details...

basicly:
more pop [provided you can feed them]= +
higher tech [provided you have the resources to make use of it] = +
better infrastructure = +
generally stability = +
lower inflation = +
raw materials [provided you can extract/grow/whatever them] =+

i intend, among other things, to grow a lot of barley :)

oh: next time the map gets updated, could it please actually be labeled and/or have a key so we can tell who is where more easily? thank you :D

Sorry about that, I'll get right on it....

as soon as I finish trying to make my first Omelette...

I am pretty sure my economy is doing very well.

I am too, you should be able to field an economy similar to Britain's

also, Updated map w/ key

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap2key.jpg

can i get in on this or is it too late?

Sweet. Where is the IC thread again?

EDIT: Of course you can get in. 5 nations. State your claim, lol.

territories, not nations. of course, most of those territories equate to modern nations, but some of the big ones have been chopped up and the smaller ones merged together.

if anyone has any idea what kind of population i should have, that's all i really need before i can post my fact book.

there's lots of other things that'd be good and helpful, but that's all that's really needed.

I control the industrial cities of Northern Italy so I'm alright.

I control the industrial cities of Northern Italy so I'm alright.

industrial cities, being man-made, arn't really an issue. anyone could, quite legitimately, claime such.

the issue is if you have the raw materials to Support those industries.

gotta remember the difference between an Alternate History and an Earth, as well of the fine points of what is and isn't allowed under forum rules within those catagories...

being, as this is, a legitimate NS earth, northern italy has industrial cities because you say your industrial cities are in northern italy... not the other way around :)

Are we basing this off of the real 1800s nations? I thought this was just using RL territories but still using NS economies ...

nothing can use NS economies. NS economies are so much rubbish it's not funny. [the number that manage to function with 100% tax and no social welfare, for example]. the idea here is to RP it. take a look at what you can do with the resources you've got.


and we better not be basing this off real 1800s nations.. see my previous post for why [even before getting into the issue of 'err, the borders arn't right for that anyway']

edit: time warp. woo!

and here was me thinking jolt had eaten my post for a few minutes there. heh.

Are we basing this off of the real 1800s nations? I thought this was just using RL territories but still using NS economies ...

Oh.. then how are we going to find all of our GDP's? Hm. Alright then. I assume I have upwards of 350-400million people, correct? I am going to have a decent standing army, majoring in Infantry/Artillery, and my fleet.

given that, due to the information at hand [or not at hand as the case may be] all currency has a value equal only to what you give it [for example, i currently have a 'gilt' worth the approximate value of a day and a night's room and board]...

GDP is a purely arbritrary and fairly meaningless figure. it's great for keeping track of what's going on in the real world, where everything's value is what it is... but you can't work back from GDP to all the other factors...

as such, knowing a nation's GDP is as useful as an elephant on the moon. heh.

RP by numbers fails when it comes to dealing with economics unless you know far more about it than the average RPer.

ultimately, economics, industry, everything comes down to good RP.

and you'd be amazed how much easier it is to work in terms of "this is what i have, this is what i don't have" than "so, i have this much money, what does it get me?" once you get past the whole "currency is everything!' mentality.

industrial cities, being man-made, arn't really an issue. anyone could, quite legitimately, claime such.

the issue is if you have the raw materials to Support those industries.

gotta remember the difference between an Alternate History and an Earth, as well of the fine points of what is and isn't allowed under forum rules within those catagories...

being, as this is, a legitimate NS earth, northern italy has industrial cities because you say your industrial cities are in northern italy... not the other way around :)

If using RL cities, then I have Milan, Turin, Naples, Venice, Genoa. Plus I have the fertile lands of the Po Valley and I'm sure there's something of use in the Swiss Alps...

If using RL cities, then I have Milan, Turin, Naples, Venice, Genoa. Plus I have the fertile lands of the Po Valley and I'm sure there's something of use in the Swiss Alps...

yeah, i think you missed the point regarding cities there.... oh well.

good farm land is nothing to be sneezed at, and i wouldn't be surprised if you're right about the mountains... not to mention you're in a good position to set yourself up as a trading nation, occupying as you do both Genoa and Venice, who both did exactly that. by which i mean you have all the geographical advantages they had... though on the other hand you're not so small as to be quite so dependent on trading... so perhaps not...

Genoa and Venice be a valuble source of income and for ship-building. I've been doing som e research and it seem there is minor quantities of tin and crystal. There's also uranium but that's not viable in the slightest.

Factbook up:

Factbook (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530825)

Alright, I'll start up my fact book now.

Is this still open? If so, I'd like to join. I always wanted to flesh out the Vetalian Empire and the period before the Republic.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12800666#post12800666

fact book. take a look and see what i mean when i say this one's giving me bother *le sigh* i usually bulk these things out on the fly, [often to excess of 4 pages worth. one hit 7] but this is a sparse start, and no mistake.

The IC thread is here, for those who need it, unfortunately I have business to attend to, but when I get back I'll start working on a factbook

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12799114#post12799114

Mine is rather sparce as well.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12800795#post12800795

Anger why did you situate yourself with no coastline?

just leaves me one less thing to worry about really.

several, come to think of it.


that, and i've got throughly sick of being a small nation with far too much coastline threatened by larger powers with more powerful navies.

there was a ww1 era rp i was in... my territory stretched from southern Denmark to east Normandy.... and hardly inland at all. the two biggest naval powers were in Scandinavia and Iberia, and neither was overly fond of me, while one of the more powerful land forces was to my south east, and ... hostile.

i also seem to be the one initiating diplomacy far too often [and it useually becomes many weeks of talking about not much resulting in an agreement which then never matters]

so, what i have done here, is limit my problems [i have two land borders with other nations, and that's it] and position myself in such a way as to make diplomatic relations with me sufficiently desirable as to entice someone Else to start such. well, hopefully.

also, not needing a navy [due to a lack of coastline] beyond possibly some river boats on the Colorado, frees up a fair few resources for other things :)

looking at the map [on the previous page].....

that's a no.

edit: let's do the timewarp again.

seriously, what's up with that? it only seems to be getting me :D

Is Poland still free?

Nope. Shakal got that, and I am about to respond to the Meeting thread Hon.

Alversian Factbook here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12800964#post12800964

can i join? "drops to knees" please

I would really like northern california, but its controled, so i thought maybe there could be a revolution?

"Rise my son, you may join" Lol pick five territories and throw up a fact book.

also, Updated map w/ key

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap2key.jpg
I'd like to claim Egypt and Sudan.

Some questions though:
- Do we RP with all RL climate zones, mountains, terrain types, ice seas...?
- How do we determine population? If we don't look at the RL nations, we can always use half our NS population, would be pretty historical correct.
- We use our NS name for our country, right?

1. We use the RL climates and geography
2. There is a link a few pages back that will show you the population for your nation. My NS Nation has a pop of over 150billion and that is too much
3. You can use any name you like

I would really like northern california, but its controled, so i thought maybe there could be a revolution?

somehow, i don't think anyone would appreciate losing territory this early in the game...

I'd like to claim Egypt.

Some questions though:
- Do we RP with all RL climate zones, mountains, terrain types, ice seas...?
- How do we determine population? If we don't look at the RL nations, we can always use half our NS population, would be pretty historical correct.
- We use our NS name for our country, right?

my own population by that method of calculation would be over 1.5 billion as well.

i had some trouble with the population stats, unfortunately, as my US geography isn't that brilliant, and i don't control the entirety of the USA.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530843 this is my factbook

1. We use the RL climates and geography
2. There is a link a few pages back that will show you the population for your nation. My NS Nation has a pop of over 150billion and that is too much
3. You can use any name you like

2. Yup, populstat.info

My Hakenian army (Egypt/Sudan):

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6909/baden1lb4.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baden1lb4.jpg)
Grenadier-guard

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8166/baden2it0.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baden2it0.jpg)
Infantry of the line


http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6239/baden3nh5.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baden3nh5.jpg)
Mounted Artillery

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8793/chap26fclipimage004kj2.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chap26fclipimage004kj2.jpg)
Light cavalry

Hakenium, you have a TG.

EDIT- As do you HT

My Hakenian army (Egypt/Sudan):

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6909/baden1lb4.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baden1lb4.jpg)
Grenadier-guard

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8166/baden2it0.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baden2it0.jpg)
Infantry of the line


http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6239/baden3nh5.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=baden3nh5.jpg)
Mounted Artillery

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8793/chap26fclipimage004kj2.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chap26fclipimage004kj2.jpg)
Light cavalry

Aren't these uniforms a bit 'stuffy for an African Climate?

I will have florida then please.

I will have florida then please.

Is that it?

You can have 5 regions y'know

What is open?

okay i will have all of the carribean island and florida.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530858

My factbook is up. It's still bad, but I just started it.

this is what's open as well as an update, do note, hakenium you can claim 3 more territories, I reccoment eritrea, ethiopia, and somalia, for east african control.

Is everyone okay with my nation being Nova Bolivaria?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap1key.jpg

are my territory claims accepted? if so, i will be represented as black please.

*pokes hakenium* see above about territories

and yes, your claims are in, And you're brown, deal with it =P

Aren't these uniforms a bit 'stuffy for an African Climate?
Hmmm, you're probably right. Altough Napoleon and other European nations went to there dressed like that, I guess natives wouldn't keep such a tradition for long, even if they were influenced a lot by others.

the last one is still good. I'll see if I find some good infantry replacements. I'll make a defintive factbook when I'm on the map anyway.

Hakenium, you have a TG.

EDIT- As do you HT

May I take Sri Lanka if you take that land?

Note: my lands are still 'wild frontier' and thus, fortified out of necessity, and to keep the land from land-squatters
====
To below:
RL, I think, not 100% sure...

okay thanks for accepting me.

How do we decide ecomonics and population? Is it based on RL, or on NS stats.

there's a link for population a few pages. As for economics, look at where you are, For example my place is right int he andes, patagonia, territories in the rainforest, and the Pampas, that gives me substantial gold, decent farming land, and plenty of grazing land, as well as, I think, an okay supply of wood, I'm also suited to become a decent naval power based on posistion (( people still have to go around tierra del fuego to get to the west coast so I can exploit that, hehe))

May I take Sri Lanka if you take that land?
====
To below:
RL, I think, not 100% sure...


Uhh sort of a strategic liability.

Uh-huh...
Isn't that the point?
(It's a crazy plan, but if it works...)

It has meat...
And spices...

I could pull my HEITC/DEIC/HTC charter to claim it.
Or India...
(Except I let India go for continuity issues, thus avoiding the 1857 Sepoy rebellion)

My 'Nation' is what would have happened if a coporation (A merger between a fictional company and the East Indian Trade Company) decided it was more important than the nations that founded it?

In an un-RPed scuffle India was given free rule early. The newer Honourable East Indian Company may have decided to step in HTC's place though...

May I claim Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE and Turkey please. I won't be called Honakon if I can (though it won't differ too much), and considering my nation was only formed in the 50's, I'll make up a past ruled by a Sultan or something.

If I can claim one more may I have a colony of sorts in the form of South Africa.

added, congratulations, you are now the proud owner of Arabia. =P

Hey, Alversia, I understand you're looking to establish an African colony. Mind telling me exactly where you plan to colonize, so I can determine how my country's government will react? I mean, depending on where and how large it is, my response could be anywhere from nothing, to an envoy expressing my nation's hopes you do not mean to infringe upon Romandeosian soil, to a military expedition to remove you from Africa.

~ Romandeos.

If they are open, I'll take the five western territories in Russia that are unclaimed.

Hey, Alversia, I understand you're looking to establish an African colony. Mind telling me exactly where you plan to colonize, so I can determine how my country's government will react? I mean, depending on where and how large it is, my response could be anywhere from nothing, to an envoy expressing my nation's hopes you do not mean to infringe upon Romandeosian soil, to a military expedition to remove you from Africa.

~ Romandeos.

I was thinking West Africa, Ivory Coast, Congo that sort of region

I was thinking West Africa, Ivory Coast, Congo that sort of region

Hmmm. That will take the frigate Eternal Hope right past the Straights if I am not mistaken. That's quite a distance (the whole trip, I mean), but then, frigates in those days largely fulfilled the work cruisers perform now, cruising unsupported in regions long distances away from home.

Might cause troubles between us in the long run...or the short run, if I make a Monroe Doctrine sort of document in this RP, barring infringement by colonial powers on African soil and so forth.

~ Romandeos.

Hmmm. That will take the frigate Eternal Hope right past the Straights if I am not mistaken. That's quite a distance (the whole trip, I mean), but then, frigates in those days largely fulfilled the work cruisers perform now, cruising unsupported in regions long distances away from home.

Might cause troubles between us in the long run...or the short run, if I make a Monroe Doctrine sort of document in this RP, barring infringement by colonial powers on African soil and so forth.

~ Romandeos.

It is a one way trip after all

And why spoil the fun of colonialisation

what five territories in western russia are you speaking about? if you could give me specifics it would be helpful.

Also, Once again, is everyone okay with my RPing a different nation than Zhyolatska for this RP? i got no reply last time and I'd like to know so I can make a factbook and post about invading Uruguay and sending an expedition to south western africa.

Also, hurtful, loved the factbook and the whole east india company thing =P if you want passage to the atlantic I'm sure we can work something out.

Edit: To alversia, It's just a document, doesn't mean you need to pay it heed =P

It is a one way trip after all

And why spoil the fun of colonialisation

I'm not spoiling anything if I do something like that. If anything, I'm making things more interesting. I'll see about making an IC post.

~ Romandeos.

what five territories in western russia are you speaking about? if you could give me specifics it would be helpful.


Here's a quick, crappy marking of the territories:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/shaddamIV/map-1.jpg

We're the periwinkle territories just north of China.

Here's a quick, crappy marking of the territories:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/shaddamIV/map-1.jpg

We're the periwinkle territories just north of China.

Minus one, you took 6 russian territories. The maximum limit is five.

Minus one, you took 6 russian territories. The maximum limit is five.

Shoot, I thought I erased that one. Here's it fixed:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/shaddamIV/map-1.jpg

Shoot, I thought I erased that one. Here's it fixed:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/shaddamIV/map-1.jpg
You didn't really erase the sith one ;)

Personally though, I don't think it would matter about having a 6th territory

but yeah...

all right vetalia added you to the map, hakenium, cazelia, and romandeos, each of you can choose more territories, hakenium you can choose 3 more, cazelia and romandeos 1 more each.

You didn't really erase the sith one ;)

Oh you've got to be shitting me...not again. I'm erasing the one closest to the other country's territory in western Russia. Damn photobucket.

all right vetalia added you to the map, hakenium, cazelia, and romandeos, each of you can choose more territories, hakenium you can choose 3 more, cazelia and romandeos 1 more each.

I'm fine how I presently am, unless somebody can give me a compelling reason to choose a fifth territory before making my first move in the game?

By the way, Spain is claimed by Aqua Anu, correct?

~ Romandeos.

For population, we should divide by anywhere from 10 to 30. That would give a nation like mine somewhere between 150 and 500 million people, entirely plausible for a very large nation in the 19th century.

For population, we should divide by anywhere from 10 to 30. That would give a nation like mine somewhere between 150 and 500 million people, entirely plausible for a very large nation in the 19th century.

Aren't we using the populstat.info for the regions populations?

I posted a while back, if I can still get in. In think my territories went like this-

1. Thailand
2. (or 1, if it counts as Thailand) The Peninsula below Thailand
3. Sri Lanka
4. Yeman
5. Oman
6. (if you decide to count 1 and 2 as 1) Eritea

If i'm too late, please disregard

Aren't we using the populstat.info for the regions populations?

I'm not sure. Nobody's commented on that aspect for a while, and the conventional NS populations would be too big, so I tried to find a modifier that would be reasonable in order to maintain proportion in the RP.

hey, how can i find my nation's population and economy?

we are, and Romandeos, you could claim western sahara... or we can just give it to you, I don't think a population increase of 12 will affect your army much.. =P
I say give him the barren strip of land.

EDIT: or corsica, you could take corsica, and we are using populstat.info, just find your regions there and figure it out, the russians may have trouble though.

hey, how can i find my nation's population and economy?

Read back a few posts, and I think Vetalia suggested a good method by which to determine populations.

I would suppose economy would, as in normal NS gameplay, be primarily determined by the individual. Not everybody plays according to calculators.

I sure as Hell don't.

~ Romandeos.

we are, and Romandeos, you could claim western sahara... or we can just give it to you, I don't think a population increase of 12 will affect your army much.. =P
I say give him the barren strip of land.

EDIT: or corsica, you could take corsica, and we are using populstat.info, just find your regions there and figure it out, the russians may have trouble though.

Fine. If you think it's a good idea, I'll take Corsica...it'll give me a place from which to strike at my most likely enemies better, anyhow. I'll explain it in my factbook as a colony claimed through conflict, something like that.

I can always invade the Sahara...if at some point in the game I feel like wading in an endless ocean of hot sand.

~ Romandeos.

I'm not sure. Nobody's commented on that aspect for a while, and the conventional NS populations would be too big, so I tried to find a modifier that would be reasonable in order to maintain proportion in the RP.

Most people who I've seen have used populstat for their factbooks...

Hey can I take Turkey, Iran , Georgia, Armenia & Pakistan


And could I possibly ask you to reserve the rest of the available Arabian Peninsula & Djibouti, Somalia for a friend?

Nope, turkey and a pakistan are taken, so is the entire arabian peninsula, Eritrea are open though. look back some pages to see what's open, there's a whole empire available in Central europe.

also, nova bolivaria is acceptable right?

EDIT: south thasland, Might I suggest
Bangladesh,
thailand,
sri lanka,
Mallaca
Restof indonesia/nepal

As Oman and yemen are taken, and if you want a south asian nation you could take 5 of the remaining 6 nations in south asia.

What about Iran, Kyzakistan, Armenia, Georgia?

open

And eritrea,Djibouti,Ethiopia,Somalia, Tanzania, Kenya & Uganda?

Wait wait wait, can I claim Iran, Afghanistan,Turkmenistan,Uzbekistan,Azerbaijan,Armenia,Georgia.

The other the same.

only five of those

Ok strike Uzbekistan

and eritrea & uganda

still more than five, choose only five territories for your nation

Yea I know this is for two seperate nations, I have a friend that wants to join, but he doesn't have access to a computer tonight through Sunday probably, could you reserve those... or ...? (My nations the Asian claim; his nation is the African) And if not then I guess he'll just have to wait haha. So go ahead and mark my claim down please: Iran, Afghanistan,Azerbaijan,Armenia,Georgia

righto-Then, I'll mark your claim, there's a link to populstat for your population.

I posted a while back, if I can still get in. In think my territories went like this-

1. Thailand
2. (or 1, if it counts as Thailand) The Peninsula below Thailand
3. Sri Lanka
4. Yeman
5. Oman
6. (if you decide to count 1 and 2 as 1) Eritea

If i'm too late, please disregard

I took Siam, which includes Thialand...
Ah dangit... YOU have Sri Lanka...
I just bargained myself into taking that land for letting smeone else take some land next to mine.
(Joint invasion? We'll split the spoils 50/50)

That or I shift my aim south to Madagascar

anyone interested in RPing Uruguay for when I invade?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12803103#post12803103

Made a thread for finding all the threads for this RP

Glad you have my factbook there Sendersdale
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=530840

Nobody mind if I annex Serbia?

*pokes hakenium* see above about territories

and yes, your claims are in, And you're brown, deal with it =P

Sorry, I tend to sleep at night. ;)

I don't like to have very a very big nation. I think it's already big right now. With three more, I attract a bit too much attention. Two is good enough.

I do have one request: I don't know what program you use, so if it's too much af a hassle don't bother, but could you draw a Carloginian Empire-brown around my regions.

i think he was talking about me, im brown.

NORTH CALAVERAS

The peoples army(infantry)
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.chemungvalley.org/8.25.1a.redcoats.475.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.nowpublic.com/its_all_about_israel_whats_behind_the_calls_for_the_us_to_bomb_iran&h=236&w=378&sz=111&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=9paZPcxE8EJQrM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRedcoats%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enUS222US223%26sa% 3DN
The Red cavalry
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Military/Achaemenid_Cavalary.gif
Calaverian Battery division
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://marchthroughtimes.com/cannon/Pictures/revolutionary.jpg&imgrefurl=http://marchthroughtimes.com/cannon/cannonpage.htm&h=312&w=416&sz=32&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=7-EAtiEIUG-dMM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drevolutionary%2Bcannons%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enUS222US223

anyone interested in RPing Uruguay for when I invade?

I am interested,since I am the only other South American nation.

To Hakenium: sure, I can make your borders brown, won't stand out so much though.

To Canland: if you're willing to not participate int he battle for Uruguay as your nation, then go ahead and RP Uruguay, or you might want to try and claim it for yourself.

Thanks for accepting my claim. The Sultanate of Arabia will be it's name, if allowed. South Africa will be a colony.

There should be set way of working out population really, as I'm still confused by that.

you'll have to try to colonize south africa IC as you've no more starting territories.

also, My factbook, sorry for shortness, let me know what needs to be included/changed: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12803361

i think he was talking about me, im brown.

Several people are. :)

you'll have to try to colonize south africa IC as you've no more starting territories.

also, My factbook, sorry for shortness, let me know what needs to be included/changed: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12803361

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE and South Africa were my claims. I'm just RPing South Africa as a colony in it's history, but I have claimed it.

This thread needs much better organization. Compare this thread with this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=528727) thread, and you'll see the simple organization needed to make it easier for nations to claim. Basically, we should stick the map and list of claims at the front.

Zhyolatska I sent you a telegram,please reply.

urgh.. that whole "how many people do i actually have?" thing is bugging me...

and, if i remember rightly, the bulk of north america's population at this time lies east of my borders... meaning that my population density will be rubbish at best if i take RL numbers.

so, all things considered [except what was historically there, as i am NOT a colony, thank you very much :P] any reasonable guesses about what my population should be?

edit: once i get the last few kinks worked out [and especially if i can get some sort of map... maps rock..] I'll probably start with something to do with the construction of a rail line or some such.

urgh.. that whole "how many people do i actually have?" thing is bugging me... .

ok, go to populstat.info

ok, go to populstat.info

yeah.... i believe that was linked earlier? went there. actually making sense of the info is ... a bit of a pain... living as i do in a completely different country that's not even on the same continent, my US geography isn't very good.

meaning, i don't know what states are in my territory.

Meaning the information there is pretty much useless to me, because i don't have the entire USA either.

and even after taking all That into account... see previous comment regarding population density.

yeah.... i believe that was linked earlier? went there. actually making sense of the info is ... a bit of a pain... living as i do in a completely different country that's not even on the same continent, my US geography isn't very good.

meaning, i don't know what states are in my territory.

Meaning the information there is pretty much useless to me, because i don't have the entire USA either.

and even after taking all That into account... see previous comment regarding population density.

tell me what you got and i can find the population

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap2key.jpg

assuming that image shows up...


see that green blob in the middle of north america there? that's me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/quantumf8/1850Worldmap2key.jpg

assuming that image shows up...


see that green blob in the middle of north america there? that's me.

oh that'as easy

that's the west coast save California, texas, washington state, and oregon. . .

just wait

here it is

Montana- 20,600
Idaho- 15,000
Nevada- 6,900
Utah- 40,300
New Mexico- 93,500
Arizona- 40,400
North Dakota- 4,800
South Dakota- 11,800
Nebraska- 28,800
Kansas- 107,200
Oklahoma- 9,800
Colorado- 34,300
Wyoming- 9,100

Total
422,500 people

umm... yeah. and there in lies the problem. you could fit that many people into a large town or small city.

I've got a quarter of a continent. I'm not a colony, but a nation that has, at least in theory, been around for quite some time...

given that this is NOT RL Earth, and has a rather different history...

that few people doesn't make sense. at all.

i do appreciate you finding the numbers for me though :) i suspected it'd go something like that.

I'm totally confused by the population as well. I mean, I looked on that site and I found nothing of much use. Then I just tried halving the current population of each of the countries today - we really need a set method. As say Cour's pop is 400 million something I think, so Angermanlands being so low wouldn't really make sense - I know he has China, but it doesn't make him have like 1000 times a quite large chunk of a continents population.

I have Turkey, Oman, South Africa, Saudi Arabia and UAE if you could work that out for me however.

We should divide our NS nations population by 10 and use that for our RP population.

Well, in 1860 the US population was 31 million, so it would be reasonable for a country occupying territory roughly equal to 1/3 of the US to have a population in that range, probably no less than 30 million and no more than 100 million.

Well Angermanland you gotta remember, that the place is only recently getting settled. I mean some of your territories have only been in the Union for 2 years, with your oldest territories only being in the Union for 47 years.

Besides, all of North America really doesn't have a large population compared other continents (bar Australia) at this point. So basically, me, you, and anyone else on North America have a population disadvantage.

It would probably be good to have a standard population modifier for each continent.

Eg:
North America: NS population/30
Europe: NS population/20
Asia: NS population/10
Africa: NS population/15
Middle East: NS population/40
Australia/Oceania: NS population/50

Obviously, these are just rough numbers I threw together, but modifiers for each region should take in to account their situation.

Can I just stick to 20,000,000

It would probably be good to have a standard population modifier for each continent.

Eg:
North America: NS population/30
Europe: NS population/20
Asia: NS population/10
Africa: NS population/15
Middle East: NS population/40
Australia/Oceania: NS population/50

Obviously, these are just rough numbers I threw together, but modifiers for each region should take in to account their situation.

You forgot to add South America

That or we hack everyone at the shins and give every 'player' about 30 million people.

You forgot to add South America

Oh, I would just use the North America modifier for them as well, maybe a little lower.

what about those of us who have already figured out our nation's populations? And my nation isn't an NS one, though i suppose I could make it such, but then it would drastically drop my population to use that? Could I just stick with the populstat.info? Also, a note, wouldn't nations like neuvo italia experience severe over-crowding? I know he controls a relatively small amount of land for his NS population to squeeze into.

Well Angermanland you gotta remember, that the place is only recently getting settled. I mean some of your territories have only been in the Union for 2 years, with your oldest territories only being in the Union for 47 years.

Besides, all of North America really doesn't have a large population compared other continents (bar Australia) at this point. So basically, me, you, and anyone else on North America have a population disadvantage.

yeah, about that... go look at what i said about colonies.

anyway, i understand why Historically North America has such a low population. Especially when it's clustered [mostly] on the coasts. However, that's very much not the point. this is not the real world, and such a low population is absolutely rubbish for a nation that big trying to do Anything except get over-run.

Europe's populations are fair enough.... china's population is just insane. it suffers the same fate as ours, but in reverse... sure, it's 'historically what was there' but for the purpose of the game, among other things, it's absolute rubbish... though at least it can be compensated for if the player is willing to do so.

It would probably be good to have a standard population modifier for each continent.

Eg:
North America: NS population/30
Europe: NS population/20
Asia: NS population/10
Africa: NS population/15
Middle East: NS population/40
Australia/Oceania: NS population/50

Obviously, these are just rough numbers I threw together, but modifiers for each region should take in to account their situation.

umm... that still gives me 100 million population. I'm reasonably sure that's a little on the high side :)

not to mention most Asian populations would be larger than American ones, i suspect, so the number there would need changing to balance it out properly.

maybe if we could find a way to use NS pop to figure population Density, and then use some rough measure as to how much land each person has? that way people's populations would be 'realistic' [to a point] compared to their territory. provided one got the 'NS-pop to area' right.

I'm thinking maybe that every 10 million NS pop would be 1 person per square kilometer? [or mile, if you want to use imperial measures] just for an easy number. that would give me... ok, probably too many, as I'd have 300 people per square km/mile. but maybe not when one remembers they're not spread uniformly and i have a fair few square kilometers of land. umm, also, if you have less than 10 million NS population, it's fair to say that you start counting land per person rather than persons per land... though i'm not Quite sure how that calculation works...

oh, wait... divide NS pop by 10, 000, 000.

edit: the result is your people per area figure [whichever measure we end up using] which you then multiply by your nation's [approximate] land area to get your population.

what about those of us who have already figured out our nation's populations? And my nation isn't an NS one, though i suppose I could make it such, but then it would drastically drop my population to use that? Could I just stick with the populstat.info? Also, a note, wouldn't nations like neuvo italia experience severe over-crowding? I know he controls a relatively small amount of land for his NS population to squeeze into.

i was going to say something about this, but instead, see my post regarding average population density.

I have Turkey, Oman, South Africa, Saudi Arabia and UAE if you could work that out for me however.

here's your pop

Turkey- 7,961,000
Oman- 178,000
South Africa- 1,134,000
Saudi Arabia- 1,486,000
UAE- 75,000

Total- 10,834,000

Has this started yet?

If so can i have the link?

If i'm too late, please disregard
I took Siam, which includes Thialand...
Ah dangit... YOU have Sri Lanka...
I just bargained myself into taking that land for letting smeone else take some land next to mine.
(Joint invasion? We'll split the spoils 50/50)

That or I shift my aim south to Madagascar

Is that a 50/50 of Siam, or Sri Lanka?

How about I trade you Sri Lanka and Nepal for Thailand and you get the rest of Siam?

50/50 on Sri lanka only, you still get all of Nepal and Bangladesh.**
As stated earlier, Nepal is of no use to me, and is a strategic liability greater than Sri-Lanka.

No deal on giving up Thailand...

Siam is already a contested territory, so whether I get that or not is uncertain to a degree.

Hmmm... This is starting to look like a game of 'Risk'.*
*Eyes Austrailia for +2 armies bonus <Joking!>

**You get North, I get south Sri Lanka, and maybe even a piece of Madagascar...

Oh crap... Wrong person's under the table deal I was discussing...
[Grabs revolver, checks TGs, and traces the IP addresses to everyone's homes]

<<Asks South Thasland to disregard this post, and that part about a joint invasion, as that was directed towards another person>>

PS: Avoid claiming Nepal, Sri-Lanka, Madagascar, anything near Siam, or Bangladesh, for they shall be invaded shortly by about 3 different parties, maybe 5.

Ah Dang...okay...there goes my whole claim...*sighs*...*goes back to large world map posted on wall*...

... ok folks, argue and disagree if you like, but at this point I'm arbitrarily giving myself a population of 15 million.

due to the fact that no one seems interested in my idea [i can change the numbers it if necessary] and the absolute rediculosity of using either straight NS pop or the RL pop of that area in this era.

I hate populstat.info

I'm having trouble working out how the figures are presented, and some lands my nation holds in this RP have no reliable figures from the prescribed period.

I expect I'll get it before long, though.

~ Romandeos.

... ok folks, argue and disagree if you like, but at this point I'm arbitrarily giving myself a population of 15 million.

due to the fact that no one seems interested in my idea [i can change the numbers it if necessary] and the absolute rediculosity of using either straight NS pop or the RL pop of that area in this era.


While this is probably more realistic.... very difficult. i say we use Vetalia's.

Most of Africa is free, and the Suez canal hasn't been made yet...
So one could find lots of importance in holding South Africa

While this is probably more realistic.... very difficult. i say we use Vetalia's.

you mean the one that gives me a population of 100 million instead? hehehe.

you mean the one that gives me a population of 100 million instead? hehehe.

Hey, it's easier, at least. It takes less time, and involves a lot less arithmetic in the end, what with having to search up exact population figures sometimes not entirely accurate, guestimating when the numbers aren't there at all, and lumping them all together, hoping you're accurate.

Incredibly annoying, to be honest. Algeria wasn't known for holding annually scheduled census operations back in 1850, you know. Many countries around the world were not.

~ Romandeos.

yeah... i think going for real life populations when they work and arbitrary "looks about right, all things considered" numbers the rest of the time is going to work best, if people aren't stupid about it.

that said, if you can find a workable method that Doesn't produce insane numbers [in either direction] i'm all ears.

Well, if you can't find your population from 1850, considering the world population at this period was around 1/6 of todays for a simple, inaccurate population figure you could just divide the current pop. for your countries by six.

However, of cause there are some flaws in this - Asia was massively populated, whereas North America hardly was.

I'll stick to 20mil and does nobody mind if I annex Serbia?

Most of Africa is free, and the Suez canal hasn't been made yet...
So one could find lots of importance in holding South Africa
Yes it has, it's just called the Zeus canal now. ;) (I don't think this would be godmodding, afterall, we're RP'ing nationstates-nations).

Still, I'm pretty difficult with who I let go through, so I guess many still need to go around.

ok so for every nation we control we are taking our NS pop dividing it by the suggested continental numbers and then adding them all together? Or taking our NS pop dividing it by suggested continental numbers only once?

Cap it all at 50 million.
NS pop Method
Infonationt method

Whichever is most suitable but below 50 million.

Cap it all at 50 million.
NS pop Method
Infonationt method

Whichever is most suitable but below 50 million.

I don't know, 50 million spread out across China, Vietnam, and Pakistan seems kind of sparse.

I personally don't see the problem with populstat. If 1850 isn't available for one of your nations, just get whatever's closest...

In RL the world population was 1.2 billion in 1850, about 1/6 of the worlds population now. How big is your population Cour? Cause I'd make a guess that a reasonable number if we were not doing the 50 million cap would be about 250 million - if we are making this fair so you don't have an overly massive pop. However, I like the idea of a cap - 50 million may be low, maybe 100 mil?

Though, Pakistan as we know it didn't even exist in 1850.

In RL the world population was 1.2 billion in 1850, about 1/6 of the worlds population now. How big is your population Cour? Cause I'd make a guess that a reasonable number if we were not doing the 50 million cap would be about 250 million - if we are making this fair so you don't have an overly massive pop. However, I like the idea of a cap - 50 million may be low, maybe 100 mil?

The RL population of my territories is 460,000,000, but the person that has India, etc. has over half of that. I don't see how the ratios are that much out of proportion with today's. China's a big country and always has been, but its never taken over the world, and certainly couldn't do so easily. So, I don't think there's a problem with RPing RL pops, so long as I make my nation technologically backwards, etc, it's worked in all the other Earths I've been in, historical or not.

Continuing my quest to get in (and hoping it's not to late, since everyone seems to have gone on)-

Hope these arn't claimed-
1. Dem. Rep. of the Congo
2. Congo
3. Gabon
4. Central Arfican Republic
5. Tanzania

to be honest, i don't mind What people take, population wise, as long as they can support it and have to deal with the associated issues.

anyways, i've lost track [even looking at the map] of who actually borders me... someone in Texas and someone in California, i believe.

i discovered something, interestingly enough... the 4-4-0 might be the standard locomotive in the USA, historically, at this point... but the Chinese were [if my reading was right] running 4-8-2s on their main lines, [very large, and pull larger rolling stock. kinda wasted on a string of 4 wheeled short wagons though, more for big, bogied, freight cars and carriages pulling bulk over long runs] and quite a few European nations had 0-4-0 tank engines running on branch lines. i Think the rack and pinion system as in place somewhere too, but i wouldn't guarantee it just at the moment. [not looking at my book]

anywho... there's a point to all this. I'm going to start a thread, i think, regarding the railways. I'm of the opinion that it'll be of interest to my neighbors, who might just like the idea of a trans continental railway. maybe.

i'll link it in the hub thread once i've made it.

edit: oh yes, the modern type of rail isn't available either. not sure what effect that'd have... mostly i think it's just that it costs more per section and needs repairing more often. but that's just a guess.

Has this even started yet?

.. sort of. *laughs* people are doing things, but due to bugs and glitches in the setup and so on...

it's kinda moving in fits and starts.

Yeah, I'll start my factbook as soon as the map lists my country on it. :p

So what pop decider have we decided on?

"anything that results in a figure that's not totally unreasonable" so far as i can tell [or care]

So 277 Million would be unreasonable? haha

So 277 Million would be unreasonable? haha

I'm going with "probably"

40 million?

Britain and France had populations around 30 million, or so i'm lead to believe, in this time frame.

of they European nations, I'm lead to believe that they were the most populous [Britain had the joy of agricultural and industrial revolutions, among other things, and i think France had some of that and a dominant position in europe to boost it, or some such]

china had a lot more people, obviously, and so did India... But they had larger territories in Really good areas, and didn't have a whole lot in the way of tech. you're still talking peasant farmers at this point, and india wasn't really a cohesive nation [if i remember rightly], so it probably doesn't count, while china had it's emperor and it's massive beurocracy.

i'd be inclined to call china a 'justifiable exception'

my own territory is as bad in the other direction, as i stated somewhere along the way.

so, depending on what you've got, 40 million is probably not unreasonable for a well supplied nation of reasonable size and development level.

Britain and France had populations around 30 million, or so i'm lead to believe, in this time frame.

of they European nations, I'm lead to believe that they were the most populous [Britain had the joy of agricultural and industrial revolutions, among other things, and i think France had some of that and a dominant position in europe to boost it, or some such]

china had a lot more people, obviously, and so did India... But they had larger territories in Really good areas, and didn't have a whole lot in the way of tech. you're still talking peasant farmers at this point, and india wasn't really a cohesive nation [if i remember rightly], so it probably doesn't count, while china had it's emperor and it's massive beurocracy.

i'd be inclined to call china a 'justifiable exception'

my own territory is as bad in the other direction, as i stated somewhere along the way.

so, depending on what you've got, 40 million is probably not unreasonable for a well supplied nation of reasonable size and development level.


Iran,Afghanistan,Georgia,Armenia,Azerbaijan(And I'ld say that Germany or France had the largest populations of Europe not counting their overseas Empires).

Germany And Russia were the most populus nations in Europe at the time, Germany had 30 million, same as France and British, but the Russians had like 67 million...

Germany And Russia were the most populus nations in Europe at the time, Germany had 30 million, same as France and British, but the Russians had like 67 million...

(Yea almost forgot the Russians, thanks)

ummm... at what point did Germany actually unify, anyway?

it was a bunch of random little independant states for the longest time...

didn't unify until after Napoleon did his thing, i know that much.
Did unify before ww1.

so.. yeah.

heh. i often forget that just because Russia has a low average population Density, it's population wasn't really that low, all in all. oops :)

ummm... at what point did Germany actually unify, anyway?

1871, so if we are in 1850 they are still Prussia along with all of the smaller states that made up the German Confederation.

ummm... at what point did Germany actually unify, anyway?

it was a bunch of random little independant states for the longest time...

didn't unify until after Napoleon did his thing, i know that much.
Did unify before ww1.

so.. yeah.


(Yea forgot about that)

So how are we deciding GDP and economy etc?

[QUOTE=Droskianishk;12809289]Iran,Afghanistan,Georgia,Armenia,Azerbaijan
Afghanistan 3,700,000
Armenia 421,200
Azerbaijan 781,300
Georgia 1,143,000
Iran- 4,200,000

Total pop- 9,102,500

[QUOTE=Droskianishk;12809289]Iran,Afghanistan,Georgia,Armenia,Azerbaijan
Afghanistan 3,700,000
Armenia 421,200
Azerbaijan 781,300
Georgia 1,143,000
Iran- 4,200,000

Total pop- 9,102,500


where'd ya get those? (just curious)

[QUOTE=New Brittonia;12809382]


where'd ya get those? (just curious)

populstat.info

Hake and I came to an agreement. Color his claims brown, please and thank-you.

EDIT: Nvm, posted this before I read the thread.

i thought that we switched to 1860's tech

ooc: there was much creep. it got stomped on. so no.

also turns out i messed up with the bigger locomotives. i'm gonna change that as soon as i find one that fits.


copied from the ic thread.

I would like to claim (from perusing the map) Florida and the territory west of it; the two above that; and the one between Kanami's anomalous territory and Sendersdale.

Incognitia is a prosperous mercantile republic, with a navy that has long sailed the Gulf of Mexico and the broader Atlantic, industries that have grown up more recently along the great rivers and around coal deposits, and a robust tradition of free speech and "plain Incognitian common sense".
Impatient with 'foreign fripperies' and 'obscure philosophizing' your stereotypical Incognitian prides himself on being a man of his word; on being 'simple' in the most complimentary sense of the word; and on working hard for his pleasures.
(broader factbook to follow, obviously).

Oh, population would be 35 million (fairly populous, but not *ridiculously* so).

I've just completed the Annexation of Serbia into the Alversian State. So Serbia is now a region of Alversia as opposed to a free country. The map needs to be updated then to show everybody's new colonies.

New Brittonia, to add to your colonization woes there:

not only were ironclads not seaworthy enough for the trip, but they also didn't have the cargo capacity to do the job [an ironclad ship of that size would just sink, i believe]

and... it takes less than a year for a sailing ship to get half way around the world unless something goes horribly wrong.

i really think you need to choose different ships for that :S

Right. Sorry this has taken me so long, but I just wanted to be certain we all had agreed on the population scale in this RP. I'll have my completed factbook up tonight.

~ Romandeos.

New Brittonia, to add to your colonization woes there:

not only were ironclads not seaworthy enough for the trip, but they also didn't have the cargo capacity to do the job [an ironclad ship of that size would just sink, i believe]

and... it takes less than a year for a sailing ship to get half way around the world unless something goes horribly wrong.

i really think you need to choose different ships for that :S

1- I claimed floida as a colony before he dod

2- I can't edit my posts

actually, you claimed you were setting out to Colonize it. ICly. with a fleet that Couldn't Do It before he claimed it as a natural territory. and you Yourself said it was going to take you a year. what stops you from attempting to colonize a territory that's already controlled by someone, anyway? most European colonial efforts did just that :D

if it makes you feel any better, if by some miracle your fleet actually gets there [borderline impossible] it's far more suited to being an invasion fleet than a colonization fleet anyway.

and this half of your responce in no way adresses what i actually said.

beyond the "can't edit" bit.. which is weird and unusual. wonder why that is...

EDIT: I find Angermanland has said it all before I finished posting.

actually, you claimed you were setting out to Colonize it. ICly. with a fleet that Couldn't Do It before he claimed it as a natural territory. and you Yourself said it was going to take you a year. what stops you from attempting to colonize a territory that's already controlled by someone, anyway? most European colonial efforts did just that :D

if it makes you feel any better, if by some miracle your fleet actually gets there [borderline impossible] it's far more suited to being an invasion fleet than a colonization fleet anyway.

and this half of your responce in no way adresses what i actually said.

beyond the "can't edit" bit.. which is weird and unusual. wonder why that is...

well i can't change them to ships-of-the-line if i can't edit

well i can't change them to ships-of-the-line if i can't edit

yeah, i am aware of the implications of being unable to edit :p i was just wondering Why you couldn't edit. which i doubt you know, and i know i don't :)

Eh, just retcon it with your next post.

And if you wanna invade, feel free to give it a shot...

Eh, just retcon it with your next post.

And if you wanna invade, feel free to give it a shot...

I'd invade with 2 ships.

i just wanted florida so i can jump to the carribean.

now I am going straight to the carribean.

i believe that was even the historic pattern. islands, then the continent. though, that was when the Spanish and Portuguese first came through. not exactly sure What order the British did things in.

i believe that was even the historic pattern. islands, then the continent. though, that was when the Spanish and Portuguese first came through. not exactly sure What order the British did things in.

anyway, I logged in and then logged out and I deleated that post

I now have to make a new post.

but can I just jump to the people colonizing the Caribbean after the intro or do I have to wait a couple days to show the colonization?

... take it up with the guy who annexed a country in two posts... [in a not particularly believable manner, i might add, if only due to a lack of detail and setup]

personally, I'd say, if you can write it well enough to be believable, there's not a lot of point in waiting. if you can't, the use of RL time passing is a somewhat viable balancing factor.

not sure if that helps or not.

What would be detailed to you?

I'll edit those posts then, will I regarding my annexiation

Long live Carloginia!!!!

Alright, but seriously. Regarding NPC nations not pending being claimed, they have the economies and militaries that they had at the time. Africa horrible as always, most of Asia-bad, etc.

Continuing my quest to get in (and hoping it's not to late, since everyone seems to have gone on)-

Hope these arn't claimed-
1. Dem. Rep. of the Congo
2. Congo
3. Gabon
4. Central Arfican Republic
5. Tanzania

I'm sorry to keep posting, but I can't tell if it's okay for me to have these. Okay...does anyone have any problem with this claim? I'll take silence as a good answer, this time...

And i'll post the stats on my nation as soon as I know i'm in.

I have thickened out the details regarding the annexiation of Serbia

The Serbian Army was well trained and equipped but the Generals and Soldiers bore a loathing for the rule of an arrogant King and so welcomed the chance to overthrow him. The people were of the same mindset.