NationStates Jolt Archive

"Sabotage and stuff" will be considered to be hinderance to the recovery efforts and will be dealt with accordingly.

.

OOC: Long as the occupation forces behave themselves, shouldn't be much of a problem.

OOC: Fair enough, it should be only French and British, maybe even Italy and some minor nations.

A radical newpaper called Fædrelandet, or the Fatherland, has begun printing in Denmark and is slowing spreading to mainland Scandinavia.

ooc
as Elephentum isn't available

IC
The Russian government accepts the cease fire and indicates that it is willing to accept the terms as long as it gets Petrograd returned to it, along with the traditional Russian lands south of it (OOC Russian tarritory between the Baltic states and Petrograd).
Russia is allowed to annex ethnic Russian portions of Kazakhstan and

substantial arms limitations be placed on the Ukraine, very substantial limitations to include as follows:
1. Ukraine naval forces limited to 2 coastal patrol groups and 1 helicopter ASW unit
2. Ukraine air force limited to 4 fighter / interceptor wings, 1 transport, and no tankers.
3. Ukraine army limited to 6 garrison units, 6 motorized cavalry brigades (ooc armored cars instead of tanks) and no HQ, armored, mechanized or artillery units. A brigade of light infantry and 1 helicopter transport unit also allowed.

In addition, the Ukraine should hand Crimea over to Russia (ooc, its ethnically not Ukrainian but Crimean Tatar anyway) with the goal of preparing it for independence.

Finally, that the Central Asian Republic be placed under UIR occupation except for Kazakhstan, which would be under Russian occupation.

The US forces in Russia turn over Petrograd to Russian troops and all are gone by the end of December.

ooc
as Elephentum isn't available

IC
The Russian government accepts the cease fire and indicates that it is willing to accept the terms as long as it gets Petrograd returned to it, along with the traditional Russian lands south of it (OOC Russian tarritory between the Baltic states and Petrograd).
Russia is allowed to annex ethnic Russian portions of Kazakhstan and

substantial arms limitations be placed on the Ukraine, very substantial limitations to include as follows:
1. Ukraine naval forces limited to 2 coastal patrol groups and 1 helicopter ASW unit
2. Ukraine air force limited to 4 fighter / interceptor wings, 1 transport, and no tankers.
3. Ukraine army limited to 6 garrison units, 6 motorized cavalry brigades (ooc armored cars instead of tanks) and no HQ, armored, mechanized or artillery units. A brigade of light infantry and 1 helicopter transport unit also allowed.

In addition, the Ukraine should hand Crimea over to Russia (ooc, its ethnically not Ukrainian but Crimean Tatar anyway) with the goal of preparing it for independence.

Finally, that the Central Asian Republic be placed under UIR occupation except for Kazakhstan, which would be under Russian occupation.

The US forces in Russia turn over Petrograd to Russian troops and all are gone by the end of December.

OOC: If the UIR occupies parts of teh CAR,I assume it will later annex them. Then the UIR will include all those -stans, Pakistan(we all know he's going to annex it, and the only place he'd find real opposition would be in the Baluch areas), Afghanistan, and Iran. :(

I find it highly ironic that a nation that started out as part of my empire has broken off, is going to annex what remains of my nation, and become more powerful than Pakistan ever was.

OOC: If the UIR occupies parts of teh CAR,I assume it will later annex them. Then the UIR will include all those -stans, Pakistan(we all know he's going to annex it, and the only place he'd find real opposition would be in the Baluch areas), Afghanistan, and Iran. :(

I find it highly ironic that a nation that started out as part of my empire has broken off, is going to annex what remains of my nation, and become more powerful than Pakistan ever was.

ooc
thats my assumption, and I like irony

Scandic officials point out that this is a European/Asian affair and Mexico should mind its own bussiness.

OOC - I was being quite lenient I thought!

The Kim Government, reacting to the UN resolution, announces it will destroy its stockpile of Sejong IRBM missiles by the end of the year.

The Philippines applauds Korea's continuing positive and intelligent mindset. It takes this moment to wish to ask that it's current allies make nuclear power for anything, but peaceful means to be illegalized nationally. (As it already is in the UIP)

OOC: I love playing as the UIR
IC:

The UIR declares it will annex Pakistan and the areas of the CAR ceeded to it, and begins to move the judicial capital to Karachi. The UIR delcares it will move toward developing Pakistan more and supporting it, and wil give full rights to all people, no matter what religion or ethnicity

OOC; No area's of the CAR were ceded to it, the CAR surrendered to the Russians, just that the UIR will have to occupy part of it.

2 conventionally powered attack subs




Pretty sure diesel subs come in groups of 5.

The Philippines applauds Korea's continuing positive and intelligent mindset. It takes this moment to wish to ask that it's current allies make nuclear power for anything, but peaceful means to be illegalized nationally. (As it already is in the UIP)

The Emperor replies to that: "At this point, good friends, nobody's thinking of building nukes here in Korea. Not after this mess."

The Emperor also urges people to disarm, and at least get rid of their medium range missiles first.

That's good, Nuclear Power should be left for the ways of peace so that it can feed millions rather than kill them. Currently we're trying to get our oil from the Spratley Islands.

(Is that wind gone by now? Cause he said interrupted this year, not cut off completely.)

Pretty sure diesel subs come in groups of 5.

My mistake, up that to 5 tech 7.5 conventional SSK type subs. Should provide a defensive capability without any real offensive capabilities.

-Finland becomes independant
-Denmark Becomes independant and gives Schleswig-Holstein to Germany
-Begins monetary reparations to Germany ***
-Occupied post-war by Britain and/or France
-No nuclear weapons at all
-No Airforce (recon aircraft and rescue/coastguard allowed)
-No Navy (a few small missile boat units allowed as coastguard)
-Drops alliance with CSPS
-Replaces destroyed commercial shipping of allied nations
-Germany would like to see the people that ordered the nuclear strike on German cities up before a war crimes tribunal at The Hague, overseen by the UN.

Britain supports most of the above but is willing to enter discussions on some points.

-------------

A cease-fire with the Poles is agreed to and discussion regarding post-war terms begins. The Germans would like:

-Return to pre-war borders
-Combined effort to rebuild damaged cities

--------------------

Nothing short of an unconditional surrender with the Ukranians will be discussed. Terms can perhaps be negotiated post-war.

Bold are demands that will not be supported by South America. While you may think that we have no place in these discussions you would be dead wrong. For without our assistance we can assure you, your war would not have gone so well.
MAIN ISSUES:

1. Giving Finland would create instability. Also, it would go against the wishes of its people.

2. You want to make Finland Independant and then turn around and make Denmark hand over its soverign land to the Germans? There is no logic in this; The Germans have their ethnical part of the area, and the Danish have theres. Why create my anger and prolong a peace that everyone so longs for.

3. No Navy and No Airforce? What is to stop the Germans from claiming that all of Denmark was ancestrially theres? What is to stop the Russians from insisting that Finland was once their's and must be returned to them? We support moderate limits, but not complete disbandment.

4. Drop the CSPS? Its part economic alliance. Sure lets just flush the rest of the worlds economy down the drain.

5. Warcrimes are fine and dandy, we would support this. BUT; The German Government must face a trial themselves. You may call us crazy, but the actions of the Germans were no better. They were indeed given full knowledge that a nuclear strike would be the response to German involvement in the war for some time. The Government proceeded to disregard this statement and we all know of the results. We all feel sorrow and anguish for the loss of 13 Million Innocents, but one must question who was responsible for these actions. I believe someone once said "It takes two to Tango"

Guys, I need to know EXACTLY how many points of aid (if any) your nation has allocated to China.

Also, I need to know EXACTLY how many military units, HQ's, etc. are operating in China (to help discount the feeding costs- make it cheaper to feed).

I need you to post the info if your nation is helping China.

Also, I believe 30 million Chinese will be refugees and staying in other nations on a temporary basis- 10 million in Philippines, 10 million in the UIR (Iran, Afghanistan, etc.), 5 million in Australia, and 2-3 million each in Kashgaria and Korea. All this refugee stuff was worked out in Chatzy.

So thats 30 million Chinese out of the picture for the time being (for feeding and social services) until they return back to China.

GB, I really need your help sorting all of this out, please. :)

I understand the occupation part where the UIR and the Russians could help Central Asia recover from the recent Wars, but we also do not need Pakistan/India, Central Asia or any other nation to unnecessarily give up its rightful place among the nations of the world in order to please another's fancy without being duely(sp) careful of the big picture.

ooc
Additional research indicates that 50% of the population between the Yangtze and Yellow Rivers will die from radiation, secondary radiation (from contact with contiminated substances), famine, opportunistic diseases (like cholera, pneumonia etc) and civil disorder (starving people fighting over limited food).

Outside of that area, the losses will reach roughly 20%, even in areas where assistance is being provided because of the sheer numbers involved and the size of the area geographically. As nearly 60% of the Chinese population lives in the Yangtze and Yellow River valleys, this means the death toll from the nuclear strike on China will reach 180 million in Central China, and 50 million elsewhere. Plus the 50 million killed in the strikes.

Total death toll in China in 1964 will be 280 million, or 46& of the population. Government will collapse completely as will commerce, trade and everything beyond basic survival in the area of 50% fatalities. In short, China will get half of its already severely truncated production for this year. With the loss of immediate aid because of the war in Europe, South Asia, Central Asia and Arabia, the death toll is worse then it could have been. Substantially worse. (about 75 million more then originally determined)

Indochina will suffer 10% death rates in Vietnam and Thailand, but only 2% death rates in Cambodia and Laos. However, as most (65%)of the population of the USAE lives in the 30% death rate area, it will suffer the loss of nearly 5 million people, plus the 2 million killed as a direct result of the attacks (which includes nearly the entire army and air force and a lot of the navy shore establishment). In addition, China will still not be able to feed its much reduced population next year, having sufficient food production areas and effective transportation of food stuffs available for roughly 200 million (a serious shortfall and famine for the rest, with 25% death rates in famine areas). This is before further climatic effects are factored in, which at this point, would not be known.

Egyptian losses remain as posted. Turkish losses in total include 6 million directly as a result of the attack, plus another 10% of the population due to fall out, food shortages and other secondary effects (another 2 million) for a total death toll of 8 million.

The Scandic Union death toll tops 600,000 including those killed in the attack itself and secondary effects, while the US has lost roughly 100,000 killed in the destruction of the Capitol, and secondary effects (nearly entirely from radiation).

Egypt suffered of course the highest proportional death toll.

In other words, in a year, more people will have been killed by war then all of the wars every fought (put together).


The most likely effect on China is it splitting into two countries.. the survivors who live in the south (who speak Cantonese) and the survivors who live in the north (who speak Mandarian and Manchurian). A vast area of desperate people will be between them. In spite of government orders, local governments are going to start cannabilizing damaged factories to get at least some production going (representing salvage). Surviving legislators are going to demand this be done nation wide to get some kind of income going in the devasted areas.


reminder

Guys, I need to know EXACTLY how many points of aid (if any) your nation has allocated to China.

Also, I need to know EXACTLY how many military units, HQ's, etc. are operating in China (to help discount the feeding costs- make it cheaper to feed).

I need you to post the info if your nation is helping China.

Also, I believe 30 million Chinese will be refugees and staying in other nations on a temporary basis- 10 million in Philippines, 10 million in the UIR (Iran, Afghanistan, etc.), 5 million in Australia, and 2-3 million each in Kashgaria and Korea. All this refugee stuff was worked out in Chatzy.

So thats 30 million Chinese out of the picture for the time being (for feeding and social services) until they return back to China.

GB, I really need your help sorting all of this out, please. :)

UN Intervention Force - Formosa
Ireland 1 infantry brigade, Burgundy 1 mech division, Dutch 1 inf Div, Belgians 1 Inf Div, 1 HQ, Liberia 1 C130 transport, Belgian Congo 1 C123 transport, 1 transport helicopter

Private nonprofit US aid 5 points
Official US aid via Japan and Korea - 80 points (US ended up being able to provide twice the aid initially thought)
Japan mentioned something about aid and both Korea and Japan provided a lot of troops. Enough to retore order in Manchuria and the area around Shanghai. Japan also helped arm some militia units which further help with restoring order. Australia provided sufficient troops to restore order around Macao, Hong Kong and Canton. Russians have an HQ in Mongolia providing logistical support
Australian aid HQ unit, 2 Infantry Divisions, and two Light Marine Brigades


Reduce overall death toll by 10% to account for all of those troops plus the food aid.


a lot of other assistance dried up becauce of the War in Europe

The UIP will open it's borders to 10 million Chinese and 5 million USEA immigrants to it's northern reaches. THis will allow them to be irradiated and be processed into UIP Citizienship if they so desire.

THe government will then employ them into the farm development program for further food yeilds. (I have been putting alot into farming and food propriation. Which means even less effects on my agricultural centers. Not to mention the whole rural electrification going on at this time.)

although this offer is useful, it will require about 20 shipping units to move all of these people. The Philippine government will then have to spend 4 points to provide basic services, plus another 15 points to feed them all for the remainder of 1964.

Then figure out what to do with them next year.

The Imperial Japanese Militay releseases 4 Paracute Brigades, 2 Gunships, 2 Helicopter Transports, 1 Armored, 3 Mechanized Divisions, and 4 Mountain Brigades to send to China and promises 50 points of aid next year (I think it's 50, Ato Sara I'm doing my own builds now).

the navy also begins massive projects to send aid to port cities.

Also, Japan allows 20 milion Chinese citizens temporary stay in Japan until the problems in China can be solved

Japanese aid, and this will require another 20 shipping points plus the entire Japanese commercial air fleet to pull off, plus figure another 20 points to feed all of those Chinese plus another 6 points for basic services and refugee camps (and we are talking a LOT of refugee camps here)

The South American Federation offers to take on several million Chinese refugees until China can support their populous.

more shipping once again, figure 1 shipping point per half million in this case because the distance is further. Also 1 point for every 500,000 to feed them, and then 3 points per ten million for refugee infrastructure

The Day After – China
The bulk of the American nuclear strike fell on China.

The US hit 65 corps sized, 30 brigade sized units at their bases or deployment areas with 225 x 200 kiloton warheads. Another 72 air units and their bases were hit by 72 x 300 kiloton warheads. In addition, 300 operational or nearly operational missile silos were hit by 300 x 300 kiloton warheads. In all, China was hit by 297 airburst and 300 ground bursts, all in the 200 – 300 kiloton range. In all 156.6 megatons was used against China.

OOC
As location was not specified, I am using the actual RL location of the RL Chinese missile fields, along with actual real life Chinese military airfields and army bases unless otherwise specified. .

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/facility/airfield.htm

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/facility/missile.htm

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/facility/bomber.htm

More lightly populated areas were assumed to see the first missiles, and so ICBM fields are assumed to be concentrated mainly in the western part of China.

IC
Unlike in the USAE, considerably more fall out was generated because many more detonations occurred and far more of them were ground bursts. Within a week, nearly half the population of China (between Beijing and Shanghai) is within the fallout pattern, as is much of Korea and southern Japan.

Immediate casualties were 40 million civilian and military, with nearly of these dying within 24 hours or killed immediately. Although no cities were specifically targeted, a number of military airfields were located either inside a city or just outside of one. Fuzhou, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Zhangzhou and Xingnig therefore took direct hits, and a number of other cities took serious damage. As a result, 200 industrial centers were destroyed by blast, fire or EMP. Another 300 industrial centers were damaged, as were all 20 nuclear power plants due to EMP (each will require 6 points to repair). The airline and tourist industries have been destroyed as well.

OOC
Incidently, EMP damage, unlike regular war damage, only requires 6 points to repair instead of 12

IC
Food production in China is reduced by 70% this year due to contamination and dislocation. This means nearly 400 million people will be suffering food shortages by April and famine will appear by June. Radiation and disease will kill nearly 50 million of these people before then, but real starvation will occur on a massive scale by summer and claim nearly 40% of these people within a year. Within weeks of the attack, people will start to realize what is going to happen, and panic migration will begin to the area south of the Yellow River and north of the Great Wall.

The Chinese government survived for the most part, but within central China, local and regional authority will collapse within weeks of the attack. As the migration begins, it will overwhelm other governments as well. As nearly the entire army was destroyed, the Chinese government has no means to keep order.

reminder

also, the local populations decide to cannabilize damaged plants to get others back in operation. So instead of 200 damaged production centers you have 100 destroyed and 100 producing by June. Which will help in the short term, although its costly. The massive disruption of communications and sheer desperation of the people cause this to occur. Plus some plants are in contiminated zones, and can be salvaged, but not occupied for the long term.

Figure salvage mostly occured in the areas between the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers.

reminder

Okay, I need to have the death tolls cleared up though, as the casaulty figure didn't exactly explain how much casaulties were due to diseases, fighting over food, radiation poisoning, the actual starvation, etc. It gives a total of 280 million dead Chinese (including 50 million dead in the initial strikes).

You said 50 million died initially from the actual nukes themselves.

I can see in the rest of 1964, another 100 million will die from diseases, radiation poisoning, and fighting over food scraps.

You also said I have enough farmland to feed 200 million people without aid. That means I'll need aid to feed roughly 250 million people (450 million total minus 200 million able to feed themselves).

Then I have aid from Japan, UIR, US, and now Korea (mainly cash or food). However, there's some foreign military units lending assistance, hence the discounts off the total points needed to feed the Chinese people. The aid (both money, food, and military) should be enough to feed 100 million people (200'ish points I think). I don't have an exact tally yet as I'm trying to ascertain the totals of everything up to date.

Then I have 400 factories intact, which is on National Effort (1.5 points due to the Economic Depression), meaning 400 x 1.5 = 600 points. Then I take away 25% because the factories don't start up production until April (the year's 1/4 done). That gives me 450 points to work with.

Add that 450 points to the aid being provided, which means I should be able to keep China's population at around 400 million or so instead of it dropping to 300 million, PLUS be able to repair some factories or nuclear power plants for operation starting in 1965.

----------------------------------------

I was thinking of building large "condensers" in the desert, using the heat to suck water vapor from the atmosphere in the exact same principle of cold soda cans during the summer. Have you noticed how soda cans or any cold surface tends to accumlate water droplets whenever you leave them lying around in hot areas? If you don't believe me, you can take a cold beer or something from the refrigator, place them outside for 5 minutes, and watch lots of water droplets form on the beer / soda container (or cup, whichever you use to hold the cold liquid). Wipe the container with your finger or hand, and you should get a few ounces of water on the bottom of the table (hence the water stains).

The water I draw from the air in this method could concievably provide the water needed for my proposed hydroponic and "greenhouse" farms which will be easier to manage. Besides, I want to pursure mechanized farming like I originally planned way back in the 1930's (remember the debate between GB and Vas about my proposed Chinese mechanized farming).

I'm aimimg for a blend of hydroponic, greenhouse, climate controlled farms, and traditional farms (but mechanized though like the USA does) to solve the food problems China has.

--------------------------------

EDIT:

There's no need to scrap or cannibalize any of my factories.

This is because I'm moving to a wartime economy in 1965, which should pretty much give China enough "points" to feed most of its people on its own with just 400 factories operational. Then the real rebuilding can begin in 1965, repairing the damaged factories.

Besides, I had 300 damaged production centers, not 200 damaged ones in addition to the 400 that are operational in April 1964.

Okay, I need to have the death tolls cleared up though, as the casaulty figure didn't exactly explain how much casaulties were due to diseases, fighting over food, radiation poisoning, the actual starvation, etc. It gives a total of 280 million dead Chinese (including 50 million dead in the initial strikes).

You said 50 million died initially from the actual nukes themselves.

I can see in the rest of 1964, another 100 million will die from diseases, radiation poisoning, and fighting over food scraps.

You also said I have enough farmland to feed 200 million people without aid. That means I'll need aid to feed roughly 250 million people (450 million total minus 200 million able to feed themselves).

Then I have aid from Japan, UIR, US, and now Korea (mainly cash or food). However, there's some foreign military units lending assistance, hence the discounts off the total points needed to feed the Chinese people. The aid (both money, food, and military) should be enough to feed 100 million people (200'ish points I think). I don't have an exact tally yet as I'm trying to ascertain the totals of everything up to date.

Then I have 400 factories intact, which is on National Effort (1.5 points due to the Economic Depression), meaning 400 x 1.5 = 600 points. Then I take away 25% because the factories don't start up production until April (the year's 1/4 done). That gives me 450 points to work with.

Add that 450 points to the aid being provided, which means I should be able to keep China's population at around 400 million or so instead of it dropping to 300 million, PLUS be able to repair some factories or nuclear power plants for operation starting in 1965.

.

Figure 50 million right away, plus 50 million within 6 months from radiation and injuries. Another 100 million are from the famine and disease and disorder in the areas the troops can't get to quickly enough. Total will be 200 million.\
So your 400 million figure is accurate. A LOT of people were offered safe harbor in other countries, but see above for the actual requirements to do that.

I will let you keep half of the factories that are damaged, but remember, production centers aren't just factories. It includes farming, service industries etc. So the locals will salvage 100 factories instead of 200, giving you back 50 right away at the cost of 50. Mainly this is because of the communications problems and disorder, and a lot of this is flat out looting that gets put to productive use somewhere else.

I was thinking of building large "condensers" in the desert, using the heat to suck water vapor from the atmosphere in the exact same principle of cold soda cans during the summer. Have you noticed how soda cans or any cold surface tends to accumlate water droplets whenever you leave them lying around in hot areas? If you don't believe me, you can take a cold beer or something from the refrigator, place them outside for 5 minutes, and watch lots of water droplets form on the beer / soda container (or cup, whichever you use to hold the cold liquid). Wipe the container with your finger or hand, and you should get a few ounces of water on the bottom of the table (hence the water stains).

I have no idea if this is even practical, and no idea of the cost, but it would be huge. Irrigation is much easier and doable, but either way, both irrigation and your idea above require organization, communications and willing hands, and all of those are in short supply at the moment. My other hunch if something like this was doable, it would be done already where I live.. the California Central Valley, which is a desert except for all the irrigated farms.

Figure 50 million right away, plus 50 million within 6 months from radiation and injuries. Another 100 million are from the famine and disease and disorder in the areas the troops can't get to quickly enough. Total will be 200 million.\
So your 400 million figure is accurate. A LOT of people were offered safe harbor in other countries, but see above for the actual requirements to do that.

I will let you keep half of the factories that are damaged, but remember, production centers aren't just factories. It includes farming, service industries etc. So the locals will salvage 100 factories instead of 200, giving you back 50 right away at the cost of 50. Mainly this is because of the communications problems and disorder, and a lot of this is flat out looting that gets put to productive use somewhere else.

Thats perfectly fine with me. I still tend to think of "factories" as factories- guess thats the Civ fanatic inside me. ;)

Anyways, I'm perfectly happy with 400 million population and 100 scrapped factories for 50 new factories.

I have no idea if this is even practical, and no idea of the cost, but it would be huge. Irrigation is much easier and doable, but either way, both irrigation and your idea above require organization, communications and willing hands, and all of those are in short supply at the moment. My other hunch if something like this was doable, it would be done already where I live.. the California Central Valley, which is a desert except for all the irrigated farms.

Hmm... I look at things in RL and think up of ways how to duplicate them. I also get inspired by everyday things that could have pratical applications elsewhere or unexpected benefits. I like to think of creative and "outside the box" solutions to problems.

Soda cans are made out of aluminum (pretty plentiful material) and tend to be cold when taken out of the refrigator, and the Earth has a lot of water vapor (some in clouds and some "invisible" in the air). Hence, cold cans, cups, or such always tends to get water condensation on them if left outside of the refrigator on hot days. What better place to put my "condensators" in deserts, steppes, or harsh hot terrain? Might as well put them to good use- maximizing all land usage.

I was thinking of maybe making large hollow aluminum panels with supercooled air inside them. The air is fed through hoses, then the warm air is sucked out the top of the panels through another set of hoses, as cold air generally stays low and warm air tends to rise upwards. Therefore in doing so, the aluminum exterior remains cool / cold as the cold air remains "heavy" inside the panel while the "lighter" warm air is sucked out. You could say they are like outdoors refrigators that are turned inside out (designed to be cold on the exteriors instead of cold inside like conventional fridges). The water condenses and sticks on the exterior just like on soda or beer cans in RL. Sieves at the bottom of the "Cold Panels" collect the water, and then the water is sent to a processing plant where it is pumped through pipes into irrigation ditches or into hydroponic greenhouses.

One reason why this probably hasn't been really considered or attempted in California in RL is because California has plenty of food from the American Mid-West. In fact, you stated that the US produces 3x as much food as it needs to feed its own populace (and exports quite a bit of it). In addition, LA gets its water from the aqueduct system (you talked a bit about that as well).

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By the way, do you remember Schultaria Prime from NS from a RL year ago? He and I are good friends (on-line) and we two love exploring new ideas, designs, technologies, and theoretical possibilities. I was a member of his TAPRES science bloc alliance way back in 2004.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4547/condensatoruy8.gif

Here's a rough sketch of my "Condensator" concept described in my last couple posts in this thread.

Artitsa: Those were the German plans which are understandably harsh, the British have conceded on a few points (see my posts) ie. allowing a decent enough military, navy and airforce for defensive purposes. Though the Germans have led the way in the demands for reparations etc.

I believe a purely economic CSPS would be acceptable but the buffer states must remain, the EEC will guarantee their sovereignity.

Artitsa: Those were the German plans which are understandably harsh, the British have conceded on a few points (see my posts) ie. allowing a decent enough military, navy and airforce for defensive purposes. Though the Germans have led the way in the demands for reparations etc.

I believe a purely economic CSPS would be acceptable but the buffer states must remain, the EEC will guarantee their sovereignity.

I'm glad that Britain at least has some understanding of the practical and reality of it all. Germany can't really expect to get even $1 billion dollars in reparations considering the SU's economy is pretty much wiped clean by the war PLUS the global economy depression.

This nearly parallels the Versailles Treaty of RL- and the reparations can't really be repaid, all things considered. For example, in RL, during the Versailles Treaty, Germany had to pay France reparations but couldn't do so effectively given that the Reichsmark practically got wiped- $1.00 US dollar could buy at least 1 billion dollars of Reichsmarks in the 1920's in RL if I recall correctly. This kind of currency devaluation is most likely gonna happen in the SU owing to the SU losing the war, being forced to pay reparations, deal with a ruined agricultural sector near Oslo, and so on, which means reparation payments would effectively become worthless.

The reparations shouldn't be immediate though, maybe we'll work out a repayment program; they will pay huge reparations, but they are most likely to spend the next 200 years or so repaying it, so as not to harm them too much, meaning they will not have devaluation of their currency and stuff like that, but they are not going to have anything higher than level 3 social spending any time soon, nor will their military recieve any extra training.

OOC: As far as reperations go, you all do realize that I actually ahd to pay points last year to feed my people cause radiation from the Egyptian nuke radiated most of my good farmland on top of wiping out a good portion of my industry. Then to add to that, you guys wiped out my shipping, destroyed my airlines and airports(Tourism) and stripped away Petrograd which was another HUGE portion of my industry. Take away Finland and Denmark, don't know how you would expect to see any reperations out of me.

As far as the military being a "decent enough military", that is(no offense) shit, it couldn't hold of Quebec. We'll see tho in the future.

OOC: A bigger military could always be negotiated, the peace talks have barely begun. Britain has no problems with reparations beign spread out over long periods of time, indeed such a steady income would probably be more beneficial than one lump sum of cash.

Long repayments are not unusual in international banking, Britain in RL has only just finished repaying the USA for equipment from the lend-lease program during WWII.

Following discussions led by the Italian government Britain suggests that the EEC leads the way in introducing a Europe-wide military and economic alliance which would encompase as many European nations as possible to ensure that stability is maintained in the region and that a unified front to the problems in the Middle East can be made.

The new alliance would ideally include the Britain, France, Germany, Rumania, Russia, Italy, Iceland, Bulgaria BeNeBur, Ukraine, Greece, and any other European nation interested. Britain also suggests that the SU be invited so that future power struggles do not occur and a stable Europe can exist for the post-war and nuclear winter rebuilding programs. Such an alliance would guarantee peace on the continent for many years to come and progressive ties to Africa (via the Commonwealth and ex-French colonies), Asia (through ASA and ESA cooperation) and the FNS would ensure a truely international cooperation plan and "peace in our time".

OOC: Chatzy for discussion of European Alliance
http://www.chatzy.com/522923446233
Password: Europeace

Rumania heartiyl agrees with Britain's proposal.

Ireland supports the British goal, but as is appropriate for the home of the United Nations, Ireland will not join so as to maintain its neutrality.

The Swiss, a bit irked by getting fallout from Germany and well aware that until the Americans shot it down, they were going to suffer serious EMP effects from the Scandic Union's fractional orbital bombardment missile, indicate interest in the EEC (but don't commit just yet).

Belgium, Burgundy, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain are all interested however. (as will the micro states of Liechteinstein, Andorra, and Monocco).

Iceland however begins talks with the new American nation of New England.

yes as to medical services, and 50 points would feed 25 million people.. which isn't going to be enough as 400 million people are facing famine. This means that a total of 700 points will be needed to feed all of these people, 600 points if the 50 million who are doomed anyway aren't fed.

Essentially we are talking about feeding on an emergency basis nearly the entire population of Europe or a population greater than North America combined. Its a huge job. Part of the point cost includes transportation of the food and organization. It doesn't include troops to protect it or keep order.

Some points can be saved however. Every military transport aircraft used is worth 5 points, every military headquarters unit is worth 10 points, and every helicopter transport unit used is worth 3 points. So sufficient military aid can reduce the overall costs of the famine relief.

Uhh GB, who said I am shipping these 10 million? I don't need 20 shipping units if they are getting their themselves. Thousands of Vietnamese got to the United States after 1975 without US aid. THey got into any ship they could. The Philippines is MUCH closer to CHina than the US is to Vietnam. So I am letting them come to me. I'm not shipping them at all.

And the four points normally going to space can take care of their social services, when they get it. 1964 I don't expect since it'll be the end of the year to get them any until the 1965 budget. Now as for feeding them. Rationing and the amount of troops I have lessons that 15. AND!!! I am going to get points from Australasia who is by the way helping my economy with trade in the first place. ANd I can always use the 5 Shipping points I have now to slowly bring that 10 million in. It's not an instant thing.

Does that solve any problems that you arose? Chinese Refugees will make it to the Philippines no matter what I do. THat's a fact. They'll get in skiffs, anything to get away from the bombed out area. SO I will get immigrants to my country whether I declared anything or not. Especcially from the Eastern Seaboard of China. Where farmland isn't as easily available. Now with that in mind and the 5 Shipping units that I have from the US to move stuff, cause I removed them from the US. How many can I get in the country?

Your right, some Chinese will find there way to the Philipines, but there is no way in hell 10 million will by themselves, let alone 1 million. There is going to need to be someone organizing it and bringing them over.

Thousands is a lot different than millions, and back then Vietnam didn't suffer from nuclear strikes and the results that follow.(Massive EMP damage, break down in control, famine, communications basically non existent exc exc.)

Uhh GB, who said I am shipping these 10 million? I don't need 20 shipping units if they are getting their themselves. Thousands of Vietnamese got to the United States after 1975 without US aid. THey got into any ship they could. The Philippines is MUCH closer to CHina than the US is to Vietnam. So I am letting them come to me. I'm not shipping them at all.?

I do, and I am the military and economic referee. Yes, the Indochinese (which included Cambodians as well as Vietnamese) mostly fled on their own over the course of roughly 10 years. They however did not have to face radioactive fall out. If you do NOT provide shipping to help them escape, then roughly 30% of these 10 million people are going to die. The death rates of the actual Boat People Migration is exceptionally high, possibly as high as the percentage I am enforcing, and that is without dealing with fallout and without facing imminent starvation.


And the four points normally going to space can take care of their social services, when they get it. 1964 I don't expect since it'll be the end of the year to get them any until the 1965 budget. Now as for feeding them. Rationing and the amount of troops I have lessons that 15. AND!!! I am going to get points from Australasia who is by the way helping my economy with trade in the first place. ANd I can always use the 5 Shipping points I have now to slowly bring that 10 million in. It's not an instant thing. ?

the 15 points does not get lessoned by rationing. That is WITH rationing. The rule is that 1 point feeds 500,000 people, which is being used for game purposes and Sharina is having to live with it.


Does that solve any problems that you arose? Chinese Refugees will make it to the Philippines no matter what I do. THat's a fact. They'll get in skiffs, anything to get away from the bombed out area. SO I will get immigrants to my country whether I declared anything or not. Especcially from the Eastern Seaboard of China. Where farmland isn't as easily available. Now with that in mind and the 5 Shipping units that I have from the US to move stuff, cause I removed them from the US. How many can I get in the country?

if you use 5 shipping points, then the Philippine government evacuates 5 million people reasonably safely. Another 5 million attempt to reach the Philippines and 1.5 million of them die on the high seas, or soon after arriving in the Philippines or before leaving China

"if you use 5 shipping points, then the Philippine government evacuates 5 million people reasonably safely. Another 5 million attempt to reach the Philippines and 1.5 million of them die on the high seas, or soon after arriving in the Philippines or before leaving China"

Ok that's fair. I can agree to that, but since they are coming at the end of 1964, can't I put that 15 points in from 1965? Cause by the end of 1964, the majority of the budget has been used.

"if you use 5 shipping points, then the Philippine government evacuates 5 million people reasonably safely. Another 5 million attempt to reach the Philippines and 1.5 million of them die on the high seas, or soon after arriving in the Philippines or before leaving China"

Ok that's fair. I can agree to that, but since they are coming at the end of 1964, can't I put that 15 points in from 1965? Cause by the end of 1964, the majority of the budget has been used.

I actually don't see many Indochinese or Thais leaving. The Regional government (Thai, Laosion, Cambodian and Vietnamese) stepped in quickly along with the Buddhist monastaries to start clean up efforts even though the USEA government was destroyed.

At the moment the defacto president of the USEA does little more than help co-ordinate where possible, control the remaining armed forces and handle what little foreign policy he can. Almost all internal stuff has been taken over by the regional governments. This however could lead to a break up of the USEA if the President doesn't assert his power quickly enough.

Then most of those immigrants will be from China.

I actually don't see many Indochinese or Thais leaving. The Regional government (Thai, Laosion, Cambodian and Vietnamese) stepped in quickly along with the Buddhist monastaries to start clean up efforts even though the USEA government was destroyed.

At the moment the defacto president of the USEA does little more than help co-ordinate where possible, control the remaining armed forces and handle what little foreign policy he can. Almost all internal stuff has been taken over by the regional governments. This however could lead to a break up of the USEA if the President doesn't assert his power quickly enough.

my assumption was that most were from China, which suffered far more heavily in absolute and proportional damage then the USEA, and the USEA was able to get some kind of government going in a lot of Indochina more quickly then China was able to

economic problems mid term
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11407397&postcount=2

Then most of them will be from China. In truth this is to alleviate the problem in CHina of people dying. More population causes problems for me. But it's something humanitarian that the Philippines being a heavily Catholic nation would do.

Uhh GB, who said I am shipping these 10 million? I don't need 20 shipping units if they are getting their themselves. Thousands of Vietnamese got to the United States after 1975 without US aid. THey got into any ship they could. The Philippines is MUCH closer to CHina than the US is to Vietnam. So I am letting them come to me. I'm not shipping them at all.

And the four points normally going to space can take care of their social services, when they get it. 1964 I don't expect since it'll be the end of the year to get them any until the 1965 budget. Now as for feeding them. Rationing and the amount of troops I have lessons that 15. AND!!! I am going to get points from Australasia who is by the way helping my economy with trade in the first place. ANd I can always use the 5 Shipping points I have now to slowly bring that 10 million in. It's not an instant thing.

Does that solve any problems that you arose? Chinese Refugees will make it to the Philippines no matter what I do. THat's a fact. They'll get in skiffs, anything to get away from the bombed out area. SO I will get immigrants to my country whether I declared anything or not. Especcially from the Eastern Seaboard of China. Where farmland isn't as easily available. Now with that in mind and the 5 Shipping units that I have from the US to move stuff, cause I removed them from the US. How many can I get in the country?

ooc: this assumes I actually have points to spare in 1965. Right now my budget is redlining. Am I still able to go to wartime economy if the war is technically over? I think Sharina said earlier that he was, but his situation is a little different than mine...

EDIT: never mind on that question--i just read the new economics thread.

How long do China and I have to keep providing food aid for our people?

How long do China and I have to keep providing food aid for our people?

See the new thread for mid term economic damage (very first post). I am working on that.. working on Food Resources or something even easier to keep track of. Hope to have it up by tomorrow night.

new economic thread is now ready however
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492789

there are some significant changes, so be sure and read the whole thing everyone

I'll try, by the way I was reading and I gather it hasn't changed much, but the Philippines is an agricultural economy. Sooo I gather with such a large agricultural economy that I make quite a bit of food supply. BUt I'll wait for the food resources thing. Which personally I hope to be fine cause I'll have to turn away people when I run out of that resource. Can't feed everyone.

rules for food
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11413676&postcount=19

if you have extra food output available, you an use it to feed refugees. But you still have to pay infrastructure costs for refugees and they require transportation as indicated in earlier posts

So GB, how many points did Japan have food wise? You said 64? But 64 Points only feeds 32,000,000 not 320,000,000. Theres a rather large difference there. (2 points = 1 Million Fed)

Which pisses me off cause Im sitting around 55 to 60 myself.

They have 644 actually. I think that was a typo.

I think it's 64 because otherwise everyone would have massive surpluses'

China's getting 80 points from the UIR and a smaller number from Japan (because of supporting 20 million Chinese anyway)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have 133 Production centers remaining (ie can be rebuilt)

And 55 of those were in cities whose "suburbs are burning." What does that mean? Does it mean that some of the centers are damaged?

Also, what of my shipping and airline units?

Can those cities that were destroyed be rebuilt, because it was nice for the continent to be able to trade through Hamburg.

Also, I assume the Reichstag is still operating since Berlin didn't get incinerated and I ordered for them to go into shelters.

Lastly, what effect does the Civil Defense have on my population?

Oh, and if someone could figure out what I have left in my army, that would be dandy.

A side note about the war, how did 3 CVANs and 4 Heavy Missle Cruisers and a dozen Destroyers get crushed with the other side only losing an AA crusier and 2 destroyers?

EDIT: Just looked at the post and was it that my Baltic Fleed was destroyed and I still have my High Seas Fleet with the 3 CVAN and 3 HM Cruisers and 18 Destroyers?

Parthini']Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have 133 Production centers remaining (ie can be rebuilt)

And 55 of those were in cities whose "suburbs are burning." What does that mean? Does it mean that some of the centers are damaged? you suffered civilian casualties but the production centers in those cities weren't destroyed

Parthini']Also, what of my shipping and airline units? I believe it was 10 shipping units destroyed

Parthini']Can those cities that were destroyed be rebuilt, because it was nice for the continent to be able to trade through Hamburg. yes, and they will return with time. To rebuild Hamburg, spend 24 points on a production center and say that is where it it. Need the government to start the process going. Also simulates somebody filling in the big craters in the city or at least making them into lakes.

Parthini']Also, I assume the Reichstag is still operating since Berlin didn't get incinerated and I ordered for them to go into shelters. Yes, they are still around and so is the building

Parthini']Lastly, what effect does the Civil Defense have on my population? It reduced immiedate casualties by half, could have been twice as worse

Parthini']Oh, and if someone could figure out what I have left in my army, that would be dandy.

I have that at work, but not here. Your losses are in the main thread. Basically, any city that took a direct hit lost its garrison unit. You have 4 mechanized and 4 armored brigades and 3 parachute and 1 special forces brigade, plus your North Sea Fleet, plus 7 pilots, 5 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 transport

Parthini']A side note about the war, how did 3 CVANs and 4 Heavy Missle Cruisers and a dozen Destroyers get crushed with the other side only losing an AA crusier and 2 destroyers? Tactical nuclear weapons destroy ships that would normally just take damage. You didn't have any, while the Poles and Scandics had lots of them.

Parthini']EDIT: Just looked at the post and was it that my Baltic Fleed was destroyed and I still have my High Seas Fleet with the 3 CVAN and 3 HM Cruisers and 18 Destroyers? Only the Baltic Fleet was destroyed

I think it's 64 because otherwise everyone would have massive surpluses'

China's getting 80 points from the UIR and a smaller number from Japan (because of supporting 20 million Chinese anyway)

I fixed the flawed food rules and they should work correctly now

you suffered civilian casualties but the production centers in those cities weren't destroyed




EMP damage is going to wreck most of the surviving prod centers.

EMP damage is going to wreck most of the surviving prod centers.

EMP would have been localized.. Heinlein shot down your big FOBS EMP bomb, which would have damaged every single German production center, plus some Polish, Burgundian, French, Swiss, Belgian, Dutch and Danish ones

True, but a warhead in Berlins suburbs is going to wipe the prod centers in Berlin with its EMP wave, ditto for Vienna exc. BY my count 65 warheads hit Germany, 17 cities were completely wiped out, don't know how many were hit as collateral(Like Berlin and Vienna for near airfields, military bases).

So what are the total industrial damage on Germany and Russia? Once these are found out the exact amount of reparations paid by the SU, Ukraine and Turkey can be figured out.

China, you're getting 99 points from Japan, plus 4 Transport Aircraft and 2 Transport Helicopters

Aid for China for 1966:

7 Transport Aircraft
4 Transport Helicopters
1 HQ Unit
26 Points of Food (aid for 52 Million People)
40 Points of Monetary Aid

UIR aid:

150 points
47 points of food

Japan also has a HQ unit

USEA aid to China is changed due to new food rules.

4 military Transport Aircraft are now deployed until 1969.

France will redispatch its light Airborne brigade and Transport Aircraft, along with one HQ unit, two Helicopter Transport and one helicopter Cargo, if allowed to that is.

These are to be dispatched to the Tibet and surrounding region in hopes of finding out what happened to the now thought to be deceased French President.

Economic aid is not feasable at the moment but circumstances might improve with time.

OOC: What exactly does dispatching units to certain areas do?

OOC: What are doing about the Peace Treaty? Are we going to make a thread, cuz that would help things.

Once we figure out how much damage was caused, we should begin

China still has the UIP Light Division and the USEA still has three parachute units.

So what are the total industrial damage on Germany and Russia? Once these are found out the exact amount of reparations paid by the SU, Ukraine and Turkey can be figured out.

I will get to Russia soon

Germany should be able to tell you his damage

Sorry, just got back and read through everything. Russia, understandably unhappy about being hit with nuclear warheads again, creates the following demands for peace, either combined or separate from other allied demands, as those nations see fit.

1. St. Petersburg, Karelia, and Murmansk shall be returned (making Vladivostok, which we no longer claim, the only missing piece of Russia proper). Ukraine will similarily surrender the Crimea. 1/2 of present industry may be relocated. Bouvet island shall be surrendered to South Africa, all others shall be surrendered to the UK. All claims to land surrendered will be dropped.
2. Scandic*, Polish*, Turkish, and Ukrainian militaries will be limited to an amount designated by the allied forces. All nuclear forces will be disbanded, and the belligerent powers will not build any of the following, and any currently existing units of the following types will surrender all equipment to allied forces:
-Nuclear Warheads
-Missiles of Intermediate or greater range (IRBMs-ICBMs), nor MIRVs, FOBs, armed spacecraft, or missile silos
-Any armed aircraft of long or greater range
-SSBNs, Aircraft Carriers (of all sizes)
-Paratroop or Marine Units
3. Polish*, Scandic*, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Central Asian* militaries will only be used for defensive purposes (as with RL Japanese Self-Defense Forces)
4. UN monitored referendums will be held in the following
-Kazakhstan (to Russia, with CAR/Independent**, each state makes own decision)
-CAR (to UIR, to Russia, remain as CAR, each republic decides separately)
-Finland, Norway (remain in SU or independent)
-Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia), (Independent, to Russia, remain Polish, each state decides)
5. All belligerent powers will forswear to never attack any allied forces, including Greece, Syria, and Egypt (merely reinforcing point 3)
6. Russia will ask for no reparations to be paid, except in those cities hit by nuclear weapons (Pskov, Novgorod, and Archangel) in exchange for the prompt agreement to terms by all belligerent powers. Any belligerent powers who do not agree to Russian demands by Dec. 31 will be required to pay in full for the damages to industry they have caused.

Notes: "Belligerent powers/nations" refers to all CSPS members involved in the war, regardless of intent in joining the war, as well as Pakistan (not really a priority, they have more flexibility than most.
*This demand would still apply to states that separate from the SU and CAR under point 4, but not to Polish states that separate
**If geographically/politically unfeasible to merge all or part of Kazakhstan to the remaining CAR, than it would become independent (true its hard to spell, but it beats Tajikstan and Kyrygistan)

In Calcutta, President Nehru and Prime Minister Indira Ghandi of the newly established Republic of India point out that India is not Pakistan, nor is India in a state of belligerence with any other state. In fact, as it was Vanara Sena Revolutionaries who overthrew the government of Ayub Khan, effectively knocking Pakistan out of the war, the Republic of India is effectively a power on the side of the Allies/United Nations.

Therefore, any terms/demands regarding Pakistan do not apply to India and India seconds and lends support to the Russian demands concerning the aggressor power of Pakistan (Article 2), which no longer controls India.

The UIR secretly informs Russia that it has the UIR's support

OOC: especially with the possibility of getting more land
And Amestria, unless you want to defy the U.N, Nuclear Missiles with a range greater than 50 miles have been banned

OOC: And Amestria, unless you want to defy the U.N, Nuclear Missiles with a range greater than 50 miles have been banned

OOC: I know that, but lets see if that UN treaty works first...in the meantime better safe then sorry. And anyway, northern India is well within 50 miles of Pakistan and vice a versa (the two countries being right next to each other), so it is in India's best interests that Pakistan not be allowed Nuclear Warheads/Missiles, among other things.

I think the U.N treaty passed, and I've already eliminated my missiles, but kept my rather large amount of H-bombs (roughly 1,000 by now)

Sorry, just got back and read through everything. Russia, understandably unhappy about being hit with nuclear warheads again, creates the following demands for peace, either combined or separate from other allied demands, as those nations see fit.

1. St. Petersburg, Karelia, and Murmansk shall be returned (making Vladivostok, which we no longer claim, the only missing piece of Russia proper). Ukraine will similarily surrender the Crimea. 1/2 of present industry may be relocated. Bouvet island shall be surrendered to South Africa, all others shall be surrendered to the UK. All claims to land surrendered will be dropped.
2. Scandic*, Polish*, Turkish, and Ukrainian militaries will be limited to an amount designated by the allied forces. All nuclear forces will be disbanded, and the belligerent powers will not build any of the following, and any currently existing units of the following types will surrender all equipment to allied forces:
-Nuclear Warheads
-Missiles of Intermediate or greater range (IRBMs-ICBMs), nor MIRVs, FOBs, armed spacecraft, or missile silos
-Any armed aircraft of long or greater range
-SSBNs, Aircraft Carriers (of all sizes)
-Paratroop or Marine Units
3. Polish*, Scandic*, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Central Asian* militaries will only be used for defensive purposes (as with RL Japanese Self-Defense Forces)
4. UN monitored referendums will be held in the following
-Kazakhstan (to Russia, with CAR/Independent**, each state makes own decision)
-CAR (to UIR, to Russia, remain as CAR, each republic decides separately)
-Finland, Norway (remain in SU or independent)
-Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia), (Independent, to Russia, remain Polish, each state decides)
5. All belligerent powers will forswear to never attack any allied forces, including Greece, Syria, and Egypt (merely reinforcing point 3)
6. Russia will ask for no reparations to be paid, except in those cities hit by nuclear weapons (Pskov, Novgorod, and Archangel) in exchange for the prompt agreement to terms by all belligerent powers. Any belligerent powers who do not agree to Russian demands by Dec. 31 will be required to pay in full for the damages to industry they have caused.

Notes: "Belligerent powers/nations" refers to all CSPS members involved in the war, regardless of intent in joining the war, as well as Pakistan (not really a priority, they have more flexibility than most.
*This demand would still apply to states that separate from the SU and CAR under point 4, but not to Polish states that separate
**If geographically/politically unfeasible to merge all or part of Kazakhstan to the remaining CAR, than it would become independent (true its hard to spell, but it beats Tajikstan and Kyrygistan)


although the President wants this, the Duma is inclined to take what they can get... Novgorod, Archangel and Pskov are utterly destroyed, Moscow, Rostov, Volgograd, Tula, Tver, and Tselinograd (Kazakhstan) had all of their production centers (if any) damaged in the fighting.

However, the British and Germans are asking for reperations, and that in the mind of the Duma is preferable to worthless wastelland in Karellia

although getting Murmansk back would be nice.

The Poles point out that they didn't attack until Russia declared war on the Scandic Union and the Ukraine, who they were allied with and treaty bound to come to their aid. Poland also points out that it used its nuclear weapons only on the battlefield, and Russia and Poland both suffered as a result of the Scandic Union's and Ukrainians war, and it should be allowed to keep tactical nuclear weapons for self defense, as they safed Poland from invasion.

The Duma really likes the no nukes part of the agreement as pertaining to the Scandic Union and Ukraine, but can live with the Poles having them.

Balts, if given a choice, will stay with Poland except for Estonia, which wants independence. The UN neutral nations favor that, as it provides a buffer state between Russia and Poland (along with Belorussia).

ooc
I for one can live with the UIR getting all of the "Stans except Kazakhstan so I don't have to spell them routinely. Incidently, figure out your war damage as far as production is concerned. Civilian death toll was 2% of your total population plus another 10% made into refugees, plus 2,000 dead per brigade or air unit destroyed.

Incidently, the UN resolution forbidding IRBMs and ICBMs has passed, and missile silos aren't allowed either. Space vehicles and launchers are subject to inspection.

by the way, India, I will be doing your 65-70 builds, then your on your own.

by the way, India, I will be doing your 65-70 builds, then your on your own.

OOC: I will handle those builds, I just need the stats and a list of what India currently has.

OOC:

I need to know exactly the sum total of all aid sent to China in 1965.

I lost my internet connection last Thursday and haven't had it back until today (I went on vacation and didn't realize my friend's cottage didn't have a phone connection). And when I got back this morning and trying to catch up, I'm hearing stuff about "food rules" or something?

Could someone clear this up for me (and summarize what has happened in the past week)?

OOC:

I need to know exactly the sum total of all aid sent to China in 1965.

I lost my internet connection last Thursday and haven't had it back until today (I went on vacation and didn't realize my friend's cottage didn't have a phone connection). And when I got back this morning and trying to catch up, I'm hearing stuff about "food rules" or something?

Could someone clear this up for me (and summarize what has happened in the past week)?

India is not sending any aid at all, but it is selling 164 food resources a year (1965-1970), China is welcome to purchase those resources...no credit, cash up front.

India is not sending any aid at all, but it is selling 164 food resources a year (1965-1970), China is welcome to purchase those resources...no credit, cash up front.

little harsh isn't it, for a starving friend?

Oh India is just endearing itself to the SCT more and more.

little harsh isn't it, for a starving friend?

OOC: Next time world civilization nearly collapses I will help them out.

Oh India is just endearing itself to the SCT more and more.

Which is a bad move on his part, because he is surrunded by SCT members (although granted, only the UIR really has the capability to do any real damage now).

But economically he's isolating himself. The SCT isn't going to like him, and with the Philippines refusing to regonize the country, that isolates him from the SOuth Seas economic spear.

Which is a bad move on his part, because he is surrunded by SCT members (although granted, only the UIR really has the capability to do any real damage now).

ooc
If I were India I would do the same. The SCT failed to guarantee the security of China and the USEA first of all, while Pakistans involvement with the CSPS led to its destruction as a political entity. At this point, going its on way makes perfect sense IC wise for India.

For that matter, other Asian nations looking at the ruins of China and the USEA, and the power vaceum caused by the dissolution of the US and Canada and its replacement by a strong but considerably less powerful Columbia might reeveluate their strategic positions.

India is not sending any aid at all, but it is selling 164 food resources a year (1965-1970), China is welcome to purchase those resources...no credit, cash up front.

Holy crap--I know you've got mouths to pay for too, but can't you at least give half of that away for free?!

Do you think the Chinese have any cash to spare to pay you? Considering their country has pretty much no communications infrastructure right now, let alone any sort of viable currency, what you demand is next to economically impossible.

EDIT: Fine, GB makes a good point. Still.....

EDIT2: Also excised some of the saltier language from this post.

The problem is that his anti-Western statements aren't exactly endearing him to the West either. All that leaves is... oh wait no he alienated them too. So all that's left is Africa. No wait, there are a large amount of Moslems in Africa and so he's alienated most everyone.

The problem is that his anti-Western statements aren't exactly endearing him to the West either. All that leaves is... oh wait no he alienated them too. So all that's left is Africa. No wait, there are a large amount of Moslems in Africa and so he's alienated most everyone.

Stop calling me he, add an s.

Oh, you're a girl? I don't remember anyone ever telling me that.

Oh, you're a girl? I don't remember anyone ever telling me that.

No one asked.

Well then... never mind. I'll use she from now on.

The problem is that his anti-Western statements aren't exactly endearing him to the West either. All that leaves is... oh wait no he alienated them too. So all that's left is Africa. No wait, there are a large amount of Moslems in Africa and so he's alienated most everyone.

Nigeria will trade with him. =D

Stop calling me he, add an s.

CALLED IT! :D

The problem is that his anti-Western statements aren't exactly endearing him to the West either. All that leaves is... oh wait no he alienated them too. So all that's left is Africa. No wait, there are a large amount of Moslems in Africa and so he's alienated most everyone.

lot of Hindus in Africa too, especially in this timeline (people like Idi Amin haven't expelled them)

A lot of the Western nations probably could care less about India at the moment, they have their own problems. Namely, making sure food rations last until the next time they are issued.

WHatever.

lot of Hindus in Africa too, especially in this timeline (people like Idi Amin haven't expelled them)

A lot of the Western nations probably could care less about India at the moment, they have their own problems. Namely, making sure food rations last until the next time they are issued.

Come to think of it, they haven't quite alienated us, though it's more out of convience than anything. :D

Of course let the Little Green Book come out in EUrope and I think that the Europeans will find it as alarming as the Asians, unless they really are mentally handicapped.

Of course let the Little Green Book come out in EUrope and I think that the Europeans will find it as alarming as the Asians, unless they really are mentally handicapped.

Or, a new generation of student radicals may latch onto it and treat it as gospel, like RL Student radicals did with Mao's Lil' Red Book.

Making their governments even more paranoid about India's influence on their youth. (WHich did happen with the Lil. Red Book.)

Or, a new generation of student radicals may latch onto it and treat it as gospel, like RL Student radicals did with Mao's Lil' Red Book.

More likely result, as there is certain to be the historic 1960s radicalized youth culture after the world seeing a nuclear war, Great Depression and climate change (even temporary). A lot of people are going to be unsatisfied with the old ways.

The Twilight Years will be fairly quiet as everyone is hoping to make it day to day, but when things return to normal... historic 1960s and 70s youth culture and movements are going to explode everywhere.

The Little Green Book is an alternate way and will be popular reading, which will annoy older people to no end.

As long as the Philippines doesn't have to suffer through Disco I don't care. And no I outlaw Disco in my country. It's illegal to play.

As long as the Philippines doesn't have to suffer through Disco I don't care. And no I outlaw Disco in my country. It's illegal to play.

ah ah ah ah stayin' alive, stayin' aive

Thats it, I am getting some nukes just to throw them at you. Yes, I'll get our best baseball players to throw them at you.

So, the Treaty?

Germany asks that:
-Schleswig-Holstein be handed over to Germany. Half of the factories may be kept by Denmark
-Referendums be held in Finland and Denmark to determine whether they are to be Independant or stay in the SU as demilitarized zones
-Estonia either become independant or join Poland
-Crimea become independant after 10 years of Russian preparation for independance
-Reparations be given to Germany by the SU for an indeterminant amount (a certain amount until like 1970 or something)
-SU not be allowed to continue tech research until 1970 (if I can't, neither can you)
-the SU and Ukraine nuclear arsenal be handed over to the EEC
-military restrictions be placed upon the SU to be rewarded with good behavior
-Occupation of SU by British and French Forces for an indeterminant amount of time
-Skaggerak and the other place be made international waters to allow for free trade
-any other terms made by the allies

As long as the Philippines doesn't have to suffer through Disco I don't care. And no I outlaw Disco in my country. It's illegal to play.

How about metal? Korean metal......:D

A-Transfer of Land Holdings:
1. St. Petersburg, Karelia, and Murmansk shall be returned to Russia
2. Ukraine will similarily surrender the Crimea to Russia in preperation for independance. 1/2 of present industry may be relocated.
3. Bouvet island shall be surrendered to South Africa, all others shall be surrendered to the UK.
4. Schleswig-Holstein be handed over to Germany. Half of the factories may be kept by Denmark
5.Skaggerak and the other place be made international waters to allow for free trade
6. All claims to land surrendered will be dropped.

B-Referendums:
1. Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark to determine whether they are to be Independant or stay in the SU
2. CAR (to UIR, to Russia, remain as CAR, each republic decides separately)
3. Kazakhstan (to Russia, follow CAR, Independent, each state makes own decision)
4. Estonia and Latvia (either become independant or join Poland)

C-Military Restrictions:
Scandic, Central Asian, Turkish and Ukrainian militaries will be limited to an amount designated by the allied forces. Further restrcitions are to be implaced calling for the prohibition of the possession of the following by the armed forces:
-Nuclear Warheads
-Missiles of Intermediate or greater range (IRBMs-ICBMs), nor MIRVs, FOBs, armed spacecraft, or missile silos
-Any armed aircraft of long or greater range
-SSBNs, Aircraft Carriers (of all sizes)
-Paratroop or Marine Units

All materials which violate these restrictions will be handed over to the Occupationary forces to dispose with as they see fit.

Furthermore, these militaries will only be used for defensive purposes only, to ensure this European Military observers shall continue to remain with the militaries even after the end of occupation.

D- Reparations:
1. Russia requires reparations to be paid to the cities hit by nuclear weapons (Pskov, Novgorod, and Archangel), this will compensate for every Industrial centre damaged (the cost of construction) and for civillian casualties (5 production points per every 100,000 killed).

2. The same for Germany.

3. These reparations maybe paid over an extended undertiminate period of time, Payments from Norway may be postponed until the complete recovery from the Egyptian nuclear strike.

E- Occupationary Duty:
1. The Ukraine will be occupied by a multi-European Contingent encompising troops from the Balkans and Greece.
2. Turkey shall be be occupied by troops from Italy, Bulgaria and Rumania.
3. Denmark Will be occupied by the Lowland States.
4. Finland will be Occupied by Czechslovakian and Hungarian forces
5. Sweden and Norway will be occupied by French and British Forces.
6. Occupation shall resume untill:
a. a stable democratic Government is put in place through popular election
b. all conditions in this treaty are fully met (all nukes decommisioned, all missiles destroyed, referendums are held, land transfered...etc)
c. Full recovery has been achieved by nuked nations (Turkey and Norway especially)

The Indian Government requests that Pakistan be somewhat demilitarized and it be illegal to position offensive weapons/military units along the Indian Pakistani border.

Offensive weapons/military units are defined as the following: Armoured and Mechanized units as well as bombers. If Pakistan merges with another country that country must obey the treaty in regards to the border (same with India).

From Calcutta Prime Minister Indira Ghandi points out such restrictions on both sides will go a long way towards preserving peace in Southeast Asia.

Of course representatives from the SU provisional government(s) can choose to petition some of the clauses in the treaty as it is still not final.

"Is India's request going to be ignored," the Indian delegate asks. "Our country is in the right for wanting its Northern border secure by international agreement. Having come out the Revolution and dealing with the sudden (but necessary) split from Pakistan, the Republic of India feels it needs some protection from the international community."

It is further pointed out that thousands of Indians died in the July Revolution that knocked Pakistan out the war and overthrew General Khan. It is also pointed out that the Indian people were never behind his war and that they ousted Khan the first chance they got.


Indian Proposed Addition

F-The Pakistani/Indian Border
1. No Armored units are to be stationed on the border.
2. No Mechanized units are to be stationed on the border.
3. No bombers are to be stationed on the border.
4. The Pakistani/Indian Border is final the signatories of this committee will accept no alterations unless both Pakistan and India agree.
4. If Pakistan merges with another nation that nation is obligated to respect this treaty as it has taken on Pakistan's obligation.

"Is India's request going to be ignored," the Indian delegate asks. "Our country is in the right for wanting its Northern border secure by international agreement. Having come out the Revolution and dealing with the sudden (but necessary) split from Pakistan, the Republic of India feels it needs some protection from the international community."

It is further pointed out that thousands of Indians died in the July Revolution that knocked Pakistan out the war and overthrew General Khan. It is also pointed out that the Indian people were never behind his war and that they ousted Khan the first chance they got.


Indian Proposed Addition

F-The Pakistani/Indian Border
1. No Armored units are to be stationed on the border.
2. No Mechanized units are to be stationed on the border.
3. No bombers are to be stationed on the border.
4. The Pakistani/Indian Border is final the signatories of this committee will accept no alterations unless both Pakistan and India agree.
4. If Pakistan merges with another nation that nation is obligated to respect this treaty as it has taken on Pakistan's obligation.

The UIR delegate smiles, "there is no nation of Pakistan, it was taken over following their collapse, and with the death of Khan and his government from the angry mob, there is no government to accept these terms. The UIR's fast takeover of Pakistan meant no provisional government was formed, except for one led by the UIR after the takeover."

Indochina 1965

With the destruction caused by the American nuclear strikes the previous year, the government of the USEA had been left in tatters.
The military was all but annhilated and the command structre had been wiped out.
Into the desolate scene stepped Admiral Xue Wei Zhou the son of Chinese immigrants was the commander of the Andaman Sea fleet when the storm broke, the entire USEA Navy had been put to sea in the build up towards the crisis and so had been saved from atomic destruction.
Xue Wei Zhou's counterpart in the South China Sea fleet, Quy An Quang, had been driven mad to the point of selfdestruction by the ravaging of his homeland. He was killed by Amercian forces as he tried to make a suicidal attack on American pacific bases.
This left Xue Wei Zhou in command of the remaining USEA Navy, seeing the loss of communication and general confusion on the mainland he made contact with the remaining Army and Marine units. These soldiers with no leaders or orders flocked to his command, and with their help he managed to set up a provisional government in the undamaged city of Phnom Penh.

However without the presence of a central government in Saigon, the regional goverments of Vientam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand had stepped in to try and quel unrest while making what emergency efforts they could to reconstruct the damaged infreastructure. Local Buddhist monastries also quickly stepped in to help reorganize communities and in some isolated areas took defacto control of entire provinces. Salvage of the shattered industry and infrastructre was a top priority and damaged factories were quickly dismantled and the equipment put to use elsewhere.

The now De facto president Xue Wei Zhou at first tried to stop these salvage attempts in favour of repairing the infrastructre and Industry that was already in place, however he had little reach outside Phnom Penh, and even theri he was eventually forced to agree that salvage would be best by the Regional government of Cambodia and local Buddhist monastries.

Indochina 1966

With salvage and reconstruction efforts well underway, Xue was informed that the argicultural sector was beginning to pick itself up from the disaster. Seeing an opportunity to impress his will and bring the Regional governments to heel he used part of his small force of loyal Army Pathfinders and UI Marines to secure surplus food and have it taken to military bases for shipping north to China via surviving Military transport aircraft.

However his orders were mis-interpreted and in some cases all food was taken from distribution centres. A resulting small scale food shortage inflamed the populations of urban areas esepcially the students who began to take more and more radacalist liberal views.

When presidne Xue diverted large amounts of funds away from reconstruction towards rebuilding the military, massive protests where held in cities. Independant student radio station akll over the country began talking of how it had been the old guard's blatent militarism and expansionism that had been the cause of the Amercian strike in the first place.
Left wing Buddhist rehtoric began to seep into the radical liberal message of these groups.

Indochina 1967

President Xue frightened by the massive unrest in the cities deployed his newly raised military untis to calm things down, however this only made it worse and after a tragic incident in Bangkok where several students are shot. After this poitn alrge sections of the military stop taking orders from the central government in Phnom Penh.
The very vocal student group and joined by Buddhist temples and monastries in asking for an election. Xue however refuses, stating that the crisis is still not over.
The mass protests increase in intesity and their are now protestors on the streets of major citities non-stop.
Events come to a culmination in Phnom Penh on November 21st, the protests are at their largest and radical students and Buddhist monks give fiery oratories directed at the building the government is housed in.
Unbenknownst to many, groups of UI Marines thread through the crowds headed towards the Capitol building.
At 18:00 a brief fire fight breaks out between the UI Marines and the Army Pathfinders guarding the Capitol building. The crowwds panic, fearing another crackdown by government troops, but when it become apparent that this is not the case they surge back. Meanwhile the UI Marines, outnumbering the Pathfinders, manage to fight their way through into the main building, the student protestors surge after them.
Many of Xue's lieutenants are arrested and subdued by the protestors. Xue himself however escapes via a helicopter from the roof of the building.
He makes it as far as Kampong Cham before Mirage III fighter jets from Saigon AFB force him to land and he is arrested.

Untill midday the next morning on the 22nd, confusion reigns, many fearing a military coup stay in their homes fearful of reprisals. However at 12:25 a message is relayed across the student radio stations, which had increasingly become a the main way people got news in the post- disaster Indochina, the message orginating from the Bang Kapi Buddhist Monastry in Bangkok was read by the Abbot Phramon Kolthe Pmuni. He stated that too long had the nation of Indochina been subject to the militarist yoke of the federal government. From then on United South East Asia would be no more and it's place would be The Democratic Buddhist Republic of Indochina.
Ove rthe next few days a new government was formed with it's capital in Bangkok. Consisting mainly of young political activists who had risen to prominence during the protests the post of Prime Minister was filled by Choummaly Sayasone the head of State is the current Supreme Patriarch of the Sangha of Indochina, Phramon Kolthe Pmuni.

Indochina 1968

Many new reforms are quickly made by the new government, the regional governments are given more independance on internal matters. The official religion is declared as Buddhism. An election is declared in March due to demands by Nationalist political groups, however the overwhelming majority of voters vote to keep the origional government.

Later with consent from parliment and the goverment the Supreme Patriach officially forgives the North American peoples for the nuclear bombardment of Indochina. It is conceded that the previous militarist federal government was partly to blame for the tensions in North America at the time and it is asked whether Indochina can be forgiven for that.
It is meanwhile hoped that relations can be formalized between the North American sucessor states and the DBRI.

Re-construction efforts continue but are slowed down, stock markets are partically re-opened for limited trading and the construction of Nuclear powerplants continues. The rebuilding of the military is also slowed but not stopped.

Indochina 1969

The Government announces that soon the emergency reconstrcution quotas for Industry and agriculture will be dropped.

Xue Wei Zhou is tried by a court that he refuses to acknowledge, he is found guilty on the charge abusing power for personal gain and is sentenced to indefinate house arrest. Similar charges and sentences are given to his trusted lieutenants.

Aid to China in the north continues, mainly funneled through military airlift and the Buddhist community networks.

Of course representatives from the SU provisional government(s) can choose to petition some of the clauses in the treaty as it is still not final.


OOC: In that case...


A-Transfer of Land Holdings:
1. St. Petersburg, Karelia, and Murmansk shall be returned to Russia
2. Ukraine will similarily surrender the Crimea to Russia in preperation for independance. 1/2 of present industry may be relocated.
3. Bouvet island shall be surrendered to South Africa, all others shall be surrendered to the UK.
4. Schleswig-Holstein be handed over to Germany. Half of the factories may be kept by Denmark
5.Skaggerak and the other place be made international waters to allow for free trade
6. All claims to land surrendered will be dropped.

B-Referendums:
1. Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark to determine whether they are to be Independant or stay in the SU
2. CAR (to UIR, to Russia, remain as CAR, each republic decides separately)
3. Kazakhstan (to Russia, follow CAR, Independent, each state makes own decision)
4. Estonia and Latvia (either become independant or join Poland)

C-Military Restrictions:
Scandic, Central Asian, Turkish and Ukrainian militaries will be limited to an amount designated by the allied forces. Further restrcitions are to be implaced calling for the prohibition of the possession of the following by the armed forces:
-Nuclear Warheads
-Missiles of Intermediate or greater range (IRBMs-ICBMs), nor MIRVs, FOBs, armed spacecraft, or missile silos
-Any armed aircraft of long or greater range
-SSBNs, Aircraft Carriers (of all sizes)
-Paratroop or Marine Units

All materials which violate these restrictions will be handed over to the Occupationary forces to dispose with as they see fit.

Furthermore, these militaries will only be used for defensive purposes only, to ensure this European Military observers shall continue to remain with the militaries even after the end of occupation.

D- Reparations:
1. Russia requires reparations to be paid to the cities hit by nuclear weapons (Pskov, Novgorod, and Archangel), this will compensate for every Industrial centre damaged (the cost of construction) and for civillian casualties (5 production points per every 100,000 killed).

2. The same for Germany.
.

A
1. The SU government points out that while Petrograd is Russian, Karelia and the Kola pennisula are not Russian. The Scandic Union has no problem giving Petrograd back to Russia, but Karelia and the Kola pennisula are not Russian and should not be forced to live under Russian rule.

4. The German parts of Schleswig-Holstein have already been handed over to Germany years ago after a treaty was signed with German concerning the subject, the area's that remain under Scandic control are majority Scandic in ethnicity(Even more so considering the movements of Scandics out of southern S-H when Germany got it, and the movement of Germans out of Northern S-H when it was firmly placed in Scandic hands by the treaty). Stripping away Scandic Schleswig-Holstein would be paramount to giving Germany the whole of Jutland, for the parts of S-H that remain in Scandic hands are just as German as the Jutland pennisula.

5. The Scandic government points out that this body of water is Scandic by U.N. law and unless the Allies view themselves as above the U.N. or they manage to change the U.N. law by vote it is legally Scandic water. It is also pointed out that according to that same U.N. law free trade is gauranteed passage thruogh the Skagerack(and is not taxable by the SU government). A law that the SU has followed to the T since it was signed.

B
4. The SU notes that Estonia is a part of Finland(Joined Finland after the 3rd WW, ditto for Karelia and Kola). Though not much of an issue is raised on the subject.


D

Reperations of that size are nothing short of crushing. If payments that large are required out of the SU, the SU economy WILL collapse. It is pointed out that most of the SU's industry which survived the war was about to be stripped away by this treaty(Estonia, Karelia, Kola pennisula, Petrograd, S-H).
It would take a century for the Scandic economy to pay off a debt such as that with the state the Allies are leaving the economy in.

OOC: In that case...



A
1. The SU government points out that while Petrograd is Russian, Karelia and the Kola pennisula are not Russian. The Scandic Union has no problem giving Petrograd back to Russia, but Karelia and the Kola pennisula are not Russian and should not be forced to live under Russian rule.

4. The German parts of Schleswig-Holstein have already been handed over to Germany years ago after a treaty was signed with German concerning the subject, the area's that remain under Scandic control are majority Scandic in ethnicity(Even more so considering the movements of Scnaidcs out of southern S-H when Germany got it, and the movement of Germans out of Northern S-H when it was firmly placed in Scandic hands by the treaty). Stripping away Scandic Schleswig-Holstein would be paramount to giving Germany the whole of Jutland, for the parts of S-H that remain in Scandic hands are just as German as the Jutland pennisula.

5. The Scandic government points out that this body of water is Scandic by U.N. law and unless the Allies view tehmselves as above teh U.N. or they manage to change the U.N. law by vote it is legally Scandic water. It is also pointed out that according to that same U.N. law free trade is gauranteed passage thruogh the Skagerack(and is not taxable by the SU government). A law that the SU has followed to the T sicne it was signed.

B
4. The SU notes that Estonia is a part of Finland(Joined Finland after the 3rd WW, ditto for Karelia and Kola). Tho not much of an issue is raised on the subject.


D

Reperations of that size are nothing short of crushing. If payments that large are required out of the SU, the SU economy WILL collapse. It is pointed out that most of the SU's industry which survived the war was about to be stripped away by this treaty(Estonia, Karelia, Kola pennisula, Petrograd, S-H).
It would take a century for the Scandic economy to pay off a debt such as that with the state the Allies are leaving the economy in.


First off, Germany would like to point out that most of Europe has passed the ridiculous age of "ethnic" tensions. This war is a wonderful example of this. Saxons fought alongside Germans, Czechs, Latins, Slavs, and Muslims against other Germanic peoples, other Slavs, other Muslims. This was a war of political control over Europe, not of one race against another. Europeans should take a step back and realize that we should not classify ourselves as "germans" or "slavs" or "latins", instead, we should classify ourselves as Europeans!

A.

4. That aside, the German reasoning behind the acquisition of S-H is to 1. Restore Germany to how it was before WWIII, when the Communists wrecked it and 2. To solidify control over the Kiel Canal and the city. At this moment, it is no longer "north S-H and south S-H" it is North Holstein and Schleswig and South Holstein, with the latter being held by Germany. If the SU cares so much about ethnic issues, then all of Holstein, including Kiel and its canal should be returned to Germany. The debate over Schleswig is something different.

5. Perhaps the UN should reconsider its poorly made treaty.

As for reparations, does the SU really think that it can get away with severly harming Germany's economy? While Russia was also hurt by atomic weapons, it did not suffer to the extent that Germany did economically. At this point, it would be only fair for the SU to suffer similarly. And your belief that Europe would sit and watch as one of its countries rots is a foolish one. European economies, after they recovered would assist the SU on its road to recovery, should it act in a peaceful and friendly manner.

Lastly, Germany would like to add a new clause. That would be that the SU reaffirms the clause in the treaty with Germany that it will no longer interfere in the affairs of the Middle East, much as it has done the past 15 years.

As per the reparations:

Germany believes that while the SU is guilty of the tremendous crimes committed against Germany, Russia and even Poland, that the SU should still be able to feed and assist its own people. Thus, Germany believes that either

-The SU hand over control of planning its economy to the allies for a 5 year period (ie we do your builds until 1970)
-The SU be allowed to provide social spending up to level IV for its citizens, as well as provide maintainence for its garrison force (if it has one), as well as pay for needed food and energy to power its country. After that, 25% of its remaining economy can be used to create either more shipping, more factories, more Tourism or more airliners (only stuff that improves your economy). The remaining 75% will be handed over to the Allies to be distributed as seen fit. This will also take place for 5 years.

A-Transfer of Land Holdings:
1. St. Petersburg, Karelia, and Murmansk shall be returned to Russia
2. Ukraine will similarily surrender the Crimea to Russia in preperation for independance. 1/2 of present industry may be relocated.
3. Bouvet island shall be surrendered to South Africa, all others shall be surrendered to the UK.

UN feelings (essentially the majority of the neutral nations)
Petrograd to Russia, remainder remains Finnish as the population is overwhelmingly Lapp or Finn. Crimea to Crimean Taters and independence, Bouvet to South Africa.


4. Schleswig-Holstein be handed over to Germany. Half of the factories may be kept by Denmark
5.Skaggerak and the other place be made international waters to allow for free trade
6. All claims to land surrendered will be dropped.

UN not in favor of this, although further border adjustments so that majority German areas live in Germany and majority Danish areas in Denmark are reasonable.



B-Referendums:
1. Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark to determine whether they are to be Independant or stay in the SU
2. CAR (to UIR, to Russia, remain as CAR, each republic decides separately)
3. Kazakhstan (to Russia, follow CAR, Independent, each state makes own decision)
4. Estonia and Latvia (either become independant or join Poland)

Kazakhstan to Russia, remainder of CAR to either gain independence or join UIR if people decide to. Estonia and Latvia gain independence, may join EEU but not Scandic Union.


C-Military Restrictions:
Scandic, Central Asian, Turkish and Ukrainian militaries will be limited to an amount designated by the allied forces. Further restrcitions are to be implaced calling for the prohibition of the possession of the following by the armed forces:
-Nuclear Warheads
-Missiles of Intermediate or greater range (IRBMs-ICBMs), nor MIRVs, FOBs, armed spacecraft, or missile silos
-Any armed aircraft of long or greater range
-SSBNs, Aircraft Carriers (of all sizes)
-Paratroop or Marine Units

All materials which violate these restrictions will be handed over to the Occupationary forces to dispose with as they see fit.

Furthermore, these militaries will only be used for defensive purposes only, to ensure this European Military observers shall continue to remain with the militaries even after the end of occupation.

SSBNs are outlawed by UN treaty in any case, as are missile silos, IRBMs and ICBMs. UN is ok with nuclear weapons ban, but doesn't see the need for other restrictions.


D- Reparations:
1. Russia requires reparations to be paid to the cities hit by nuclear weapons (Pskov, Novgorod, and Archangel), this will compensate for every Industrial centre damaged (the cost of construction) and for civillian casualties (5 production points per every 100,000 killed).

2. The same for Germany.

3. These reparations maybe paid over an extended undertiminate period of time, Payments from Norway may be postponed until the complete recovery from the Egyptian nuclear strike.

UN is against reparations as counterproductive to peace


E- Occupationary Duty:
1. The Ukraine will be occupied by a multi-European Contingent encompising troops from the Balkans and Greece.
2. Turkey shall be be occupied by troops from Italy, Bulgaria and Rumania.
3. Denmark Will be occupied by the Lowland States.
4. Finland will be Occupied by Czechslovakian and Hungarian forces
5. Sweden and Norway will be occupied by French and British Forces.
6. Occupation shall resume untill:
a. a stable democratic Government is put in place through popular election
b. all conditions in this treaty are fully met (all nukes decommisioned, all missiles destroyed, referendums are held, land transfered...etc)
c. Full recovery has been achieved by nuked nations (Turkey and Norway especially)

UN recommends UN occupation of Turkey by Algerian, Moroccon, Nigerian and Syrian trooops. Everything else the UN is ok with. Although the Czechs and Hungarians aren't excited about occupation duty in Finland but will do so.

A
1. The SU government points out that while Petrograd is Russian, Karelia and the Kola pennisula are not Russian. The Scandic Union has no problem giving Petrograd back to Russia, but Karelia and the Kola pennisula are not Russian and should not be forced to live under Russian rule.

4. The German parts of Schleswig-Holstein have already been handed over to Germany years ago after a treaty was signed with German concerning the subject, the area's that remain under Scandic control are majority Scandic in ethnicity(Even more so considering the movements of Scnaidcs out of southern S-H when Germany got it, and the movement of Germans out of Northern S-H when it was firmly placed in Scandic hands by the treaty). Stripping away Scandic Schleswig-Holstein would be paramount to giving Germany the whole of Jutland, for the parts of S-H that remain in Scandic hands are just as German as the Jutland pennisula



The French state that they will consider these words (On the side: The French politely ask the Russians and the Germans if they would settle for less (Just south of Karelia and Murmansk (as per RL modern borders) for the Russians and increased reparations to the Germans ) if they accept they will have French Gratitude, if they refuse... Se la guerre

OOC: Pardon my French (I learn from Television), I hope that in this context it means "that's how war goes" (In American: "War is Hell")

5. The Scandic government points out that this body of water is Scandic by U.N. law and unless the Allies view tehmselves as above the U.N. or they manage to change the U.N. law by vote it is legally Scandic water. It is also pointed out that according to that same U.N. law free trade is gauranteed passage thruogh the Skagerack(and is not taxable by the SU government). A law that the SU has followed to the T sicne it was signed

French note Scandic concern, but it feels that an immediate vote in the UN would be unfair till stable governments are restored and results of referendum are obtained, however if you insist...

Reperations of that size are nothing short of crushing. If payments that large are required out of the SU, the SU economy WILL collapse. It is pointed out that most of the SU's industry which survived the war was about to be stripped away by this treaty(Estonia, Karelia, Kola pennisula, Petrograd, S-H).
It would take a century for the Scandic economy to pay off a debt such as that with the state the Allies are leaving the economy in.

A remark is unofficialy made by a senior French official that the Scandics are forgetting they have already already collapsed the Global economy by pursuing war, however it is officialy assured that each year the Scandic budget will be examined by a European Comission to ensure the effects are minimised on your total economy. Promises are made that the Scandics shall continue to enjoy a decent Level of Social Spending (Level three), Military Maintenance (though no extra training), Recovery efforts (shipping, Food, industry..etc) and whatever remains extra shall be transfered to the Beneficiaries of the Reparations, a choice may be given to whether to withhold payments during the recovery years in favour of more recovery effort, but at the cost of added interest later.

Petrograd to Russia, remainder remains Finnish as the population is overwhelmingly Lapp or Finn. Crimea to Crimean Taters and independence, Bouvet to South Africa.

UN not in favor of this, although further border adjustments so that majority German areas live in Germany and majority Danish areas in Denmark are reasonable.

The Germans and Russians are unofficialy informed that the French Approve of the UN's feelings.

SSBNs are outlawed by UN treaty in any case, as are missile silos, IRBMs and ICBMs. UN is ok with nuclear weapons ban, but doesn't see the need for other restrictions.

UN is against reparations as counterproductive to peace

Noted.

UN recommends UN occupation of Turkey by Algerian, Moroccon, Nigerian and Syrian trooops. Everything else the UN is ok with. Although the Czechs and Hungarians aren't excited about occupation duty in Finland but will do so.

If the rest of the Allies are not too strong feeling, a shift in the matter may be made, after all these terms are still inconclusive.

Any allies on, to the war room!

France, can you Czech your TGs?

As to the Schleswig-Holstein problem, Germany proposes this adjustment of borders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sh_kreise.jpg

Territories 3 and 8 as well as Flensburg remain Danish while everything South becomes German.

This is a very reasonable compromise from the German standpoint, and Germany is not willing to negotiate any more, unless it is to push to border North.

The SU would grugdingly accept the split if 1 was also included on the Scandic side.

The Europeans Are considering the matter VERY carefully.

Huron offers 80 points of economic aid to Russia and Germany (split between them) a year from 65-69 to assist with reconstruction

IF

Demands for reparations are dropped

In addition, Huron is paying for all North American food aid 65-69

Germany *very* grudgingly accepts the offer and asks if there are any other ex-US nations that have aid? (Like Texas :p)

The UIR delegate smiles, "there is no nation of Pakistan, it was taken over following their collapse, and with the death of Khan and his government from the angry mob, there is no government to accept these terms. The UIR's fast takeover of Pakistan meant no provisional government was formed, except for one led by the UIR after the takeover."

The Indian delegate then proposes a seperate treaty with the UIR recognizing current borders as unchangeable and agreeing to a demiliterized border. If the UIR government refuses India makes it clear it shall go to the United Nations (ooc: as this is late1964/early 1965 that means India has five years to lobby on that matter).

Parthini']Germany *very* grudgingly accepts the offer and asks if there are any other ex-US nations that have aid? (Like Texas :p)

nope, Huron is the only nation that had that much spare industrial capacity

The Indian delegate then proposes a seperate treaty with the UIR recognizing current borders as unchangeable and agreeing to a demiliterized border. If the UIR government refuses India makes it clear it shall go to the United Nations (ooc: as this is late1964/early 1965 that means India has five years to lobby on that matter).

The UIR has already recognized the borders, however it will only allow a 5 mile demilitarized zone on each side and must demand India halts and destroys its fortification building. These are the only terms the UIR will accept

The UIR has already recognized the borders, however it will only allow a 5 mile demilitarized zone on each side and must demand India halts and destroys its fortification building. These are the only terms the UIR will accept

India has not budgeted anything towards actual fortifications as yet, only planned them out (ooc: how much do you think .4 point gets you with a border that size), but will agree to halt all construction and planning provided the United Islamic Republic does the same. And what the Indian Government means by unchangeable is that both agree that the current division between Pakistan and India is the best outcome and neither government will not seek to change that division.

India has not budgeted anything towards actual fortifications as yet, only planned them out (ooc: how much do you think .4 point gets you with a border that size), but will agree to halt all construction and planning provided the United Islamic Republic does the same.

OOC: it's symbolic
IC:

The UIR had not planned any fortifications and will pull the troops to the 5 mile edge

And what the Indian Government means by unchangeable is that both agree that the current division between Pakistan and India is the best outcome and neither government will not seek to change that division.

And what the Indian Government means by unchangeable is that both agree that the current division between Pakistan and India is the best outcome and neither government will not seek to change that division.

Unless a war occurs between the two nations, the borders will not be changed

Unless a war occurs between the two nations, the borders will not be changed

India wants assurances/agreement that the border is permanent and will not change, ever.

(India sure is a rather, what's the word, techy society.)

(India sure is a rather, what's the word, techy society.)

Irish government officials, remarking on the discussion in South Asia, suggest hiring the Sikhs to paint the border in shiny day glow orange paint.

A more sober official recommends siimply hiring them to patrol the border for both sides

Irish government officials, remarking on the discussion in South Asia, suggest hiring the Sikhs to paint the border in shiny day glow orange paint.

A more sober official recommends simply hiring them to patrol the border for both sides

India begins investigating how much it would cost to hire reliable neutral Sikhs to patrol the border and monitor the de-militarized zone. Sikh leaders are contacted by the Indian Government to discuss their playing such an important and vital role.

Irish government officials, remarking on the discussion in South Asia, suggest hiring the Sikhs to paint the border in shiny day glow orange paint.

A more sober official recommends siimply hiring them to patrol the border for both sides

The UIR jokingly offers to supply the paint. However we would gladly accept the Sikh borderguards as long as UIR observers were allowed to stand by.

Meanwhile, the UIR intensifies its efforts to find the missing A-bombs and closes its border with India for fear of weapons getting over the border

India begins investigating how much it would cost to hire reliable neutral Sikhs to patrol the border and monitor the de-militarized zone. Sikh leaders are contacted by the Indian Government to discuss their playing such an important and vital role.

ooc
a 3 infantry division force, roughly 60,000 men, would be adequate to run border patrols, checkpoints and deal with criminal activities. Its not a combat force, and wouldn't be able to act as a major impediment to a major attack, but reduce friction fairly well.

Year 1 pay cost of creating force
year 2 and after both sides split maintenance costs. Average level training is adequate for the job.

ooc
a 3 infantry division force, roughly 60,000 men, would be adequate to run border patrols, checkpoints and deal with criminal activities. Its not a combat force, and wouldn't be able to act as a major impediment to a major attack, but reduce friction fairly well.

Year 1 pay cost of creating force
year 2 and after both sides split maintenance costs. Average level training is adequate for the job.

so we each pay 1.5 points first year. Sounds good to me

OOC: I like how everyone managed to hijack this thread...

Anyways, we need to ratify the treaty cuz this is dragging on way too long.

Meanwhile, the UIR intensifies its efforts to find the missing A-bombs and closes its border with India for fear of weapons getting over the border

OOC: That occurs in 1970 if I am not mistaken.

IC: India maintains none of the missing weapons are in India.

Parthini']OOC: I like how everyone managed to hijack this thread...

Anyways, we need to ratify the treaty cuz this is dragging on way too long.

ooc
we need a Russian decision

OOC: Where is RUssia?

Russia drops all claims for reparations and will agree to the treaty, as long as the SU agrees to UN mediation over Skagerrak access.

Russia drops all claims for reparations and will agree to the treaty, as long as the SU agrees to UN mediation over Skagerrak access.

ooc
it would appear we have a treaty...

Russia drops all claims for reparations and will agree to the treaty, as long as the SU agrees to UN mediation over Skagerrak access.

The SU has no problem with U.N. officials watching over the Skagerack along with Scandic officials.

OOC: About time we got this thing wrapped up.

I would be so excited right now but China and the USEA got nuked, cause otherwise Asia would rule! Guess it's all up to Africa...

It's up to Africa? Sweet.[/evil grin]

I'm back now, and I've got a lot of catching up to do, but I hope to resume as South Africa by Sunday if not before. I'm glad to be back.

It's up to Africa? Sweet.[/evil grin]

I'm back now, and I've got a lot of catching up to do, but I hope to resume as South Africa by Sunday if not before. I'm glad to be back.

Excellent!

Let's get ready to rock.

It's up to Africa? Sweet.[/evil grin]

I'm back now, and I've got a lot of catching up to do, but I hope to resume as South Africa by Sunday if not before. I'm glad to be back.
I am must seening stuff or is that Malkyer....

Indian subcontinent and South Asia 1965 -1969
2 new governments rule what used to be Pakistan, a greatly enlarged UIR and the new government of India. In addition, the Kashmir remains in contention as the locals aren't pleased about the prospect of having a government run by Persians. The Sikhs have their own government and manage to get the UN to pay for their army in exchange for the role of acting as a border guard between the UIR and India.

Both the UIR and India soon begin attempting to subvert the other, with the UIR focusing its attentions on eastern Bengal (RL Bangaladesh) while the Indians focus their attentions on the Indus Valley and Afghanistan. Afghanistan with its large Sunni population is a natural target as it has never been completely controlled by any government and with the remnants of the CAR annexed by the UIR post war, that area is still in some confusion. Meanwhile a great many Pakistanis aren't happy about their humilation in Central Asia or the worse humilation of being occupied by FNS forces.

Both India and the UIR begin building up first intelligence networks and then contacting subversives and the rebellious. By 1968 sufficient numbers have been organized to provide an actual basis for national liberation movements in Eastern Bengal (UIR supplied), Pakistan (India supplied) and Central Asia (India supplied). The cost of doing business is high as massive amounts of money are wasted bribing officials, paying smugglers and developing covert channels of support, but sufficient arms and equipment and money gets through for the creation of National Liberation Armies in all three areas.

ooc
Bagladesh 2 militia units Bengal Liberation Army
Afghanistan 1 militia unit Pushtan Army of God
Pakistan 3 militia units National Front for the Liberation of Pakistan

all are covert at this time and their true numbers are not apparent as late as 1970

At this time police forces are still pretty effective in reducing the flow of arms to a trickle, but the trickle has been constant for a long time and this is the end result after the costs of smuggling, setting up networks and factoring in inevitable losses of cargo and supplies are included. In short, it takes 4 points to get 1 point of result for the UIR and India (approximate and some years are better then others).

At this time the Liberation Armies are quiet and waiting for the right time to act. Which will begin in 1970

OOC: GB, Kashmir is independent...just so there is no confusion.

or the worse humilation of being occupied by FNS forces

I think you mean UIR forces...

Besides that its (needless to say) perfect.

The UIR, upon learning of this outrage (they choose to ignore their own efforts) recall their ambassadors from India for "consultation". 6 Reserve Mountain Brigades are called up and with the active duty ones, 10 Mountain Brigades begin to cordon off rebel held areas and spread into rebel areas.

OOC: GB, you do realize that the majority of the UIR is Sunni? The split is 61% Sunni, 38% Shiite, and the number will probably go more toward Sunni when I factor in the -stans.

Also, if only 25% of things are getting in, I've spent 5.6 points per year since 1965. Thats 5 years, 1.4 points per year. Shouldn't I be getting more than 2 Militia units?

OOC: GB, Kashmir is independent...just so there is no confusion.



I think you mean UIR forces...

Besides that its (needless to say) perfect.

OOC: It could be FNS, because the FNS is the country that kicked Pakistans ass.

The UIR, upon learning of this outrage (they choose to ignore their own efforts) recall their ambassadors from India for "consultation". 6 Reserve Mountain Brigades are called up and with the active duty ones, 10 Mountain Brigades begin to cordon off rebel held areas and spread into rebel areas.

OOC: GB, you do realize that the majority of the UIR is Sunni? The split is 61% Sunni, 38% Shiite, and the number will probably go more toward Sunni when I factor in the -stans.

Also, if only 25% of things are getting in, I've spent 5.6 points per year since 1966. Thats 4 years, 1.4 points per year. Shouldn't I be getting more than 2 Militia units?

ooc
you would if the Indians were standing idly by, but police forces are inflicting some attrition on you, as yours are doing on Indian efforts

yes, most of your population is Sunni, but your government seems to be Shiite dominated

OOC: It could be FNS, because the FNS is the country that kicked Pakistans ass.

I think FNS did have troops there

The UIR, upon learning of this outrage (they choose to ignore their own efforts) recall their ambassadors from India for "consultation". 6 Reserve Mountain Brigades are called up and with the active duty ones, 10 Mountain Brigades begin to cordon off rebel held areas and spread into rebel areas.

OOC: GB, you do realize that the majority of the UIR is Sunni? The split is 61% Sunni, 38% Shiite, and the number will probably go more toward Sunni when I factor in the -stans.

Also, if only 25% of things are getting in, I've spent 5.6 points per year since 1965. Thats 5 years, 1.4 points per year. Shouldn't I be getting more than 2 Militia units?

OOC: It's true that the majority of the UIR is sunni, but in GB's defence, the UIR is basically controlled from Persia, with is Shi'ite.

ooc
you would if the Indians were standing idly by, but police forces are inflicting some attrition on you, as yours are doing on Indian efforts

yes, most of your population is Sunni, but your government seems to be Shiite dominated

President is Pakistani, a Sunni, there is a Shiite Leader (Ayatollah) and a Suni leader, and the VP is Shiite

EDIT- and the voters from pakistan begin to decide around 1966

OOC: It's true that the majority of the UIR is sunni, but in GB's defence, the UIR is basically controlled from Persia, with is Shi'ite.

Executive Capital is Teheran, Legislative is Kabul, Judicial capital is Karachi and it gets moved to Islamabad when the construction ends ( it started in RL in the 60's)

Executive Capital is Teheran, Legislative is Kabul, Judicial capital is Karachi and it gets moved to Islamabad when the construction ends ( it started in RL in the 60's)

So? I had three capitals, too, y'know. The areas that were to become Iran and Afghanistan were given full, equal rights, and had capitals in Iran and Afghanistan, and all was well...

And then they rebelled, causing a Civil War that killed hundreds of thousands of people (not as bad as it coulda been, but still).

So? I had three capitals, too, y'know. The areas that were to become Iran and Afghanistan were given full, equal rights, and had capitals in Iran and Afghanistan, and all was well...

And then they rebelled, causing a Civil War that killed hundreds of thousands of people (not as bad as it coulda been, but still).

Your point was that power was controlled in persia, which I was pointing out that it was untrue

Your point was that power was controlled in persia, which I was pointing out that it was untrue

My point still stands; even if it isn't TECHNICALLY true, the Pakistans and Central Asians will view it as so. I have to say, though, that the Afghanis would be much more satisfied with the current arrangement, since they've been part of the UIR since the beginning.

LEt us not forget that instigated trouble does not really reflect the true feeling of the region, such was the case in Siberia.

LEt us not forget that instigated trouble does not really reflect the true feeling of the region, such was the case in Siberia.

True in both cases, India and UIR, but Afghanistan is more likely to want to stay as they've been there since the beginiing. As for Pakistan, I discussed this with Ottoman, a muslim and his view: " They disliked Shia, and Persians, but in the face of a derange Hindu fundies state..they welcome being with their muslim brothers”