NationStates Jolt Archive

I can't find Italy's military anywhere. Would one of the war mods be willing to rule on what kind of military power I have?

I will come up with something for you in the next couple of days... I have to find what it had at the end of the war, and then figure out what it would likely have kept

Well if i'm on drugs thinking the Tu-160 should come out in 1968 GB is most likely on the same type of drugs saying the B1 and B1B are coming out in 1968.

In RL the B1 arrived in 1986!

I think it's a tad unfair if the US gets it next generation uber bomber decades before everyone else get's their equivelants.

I was in High School when the Salt II treaty was discussed, and the B1 and TU22M were both included. Carter cancelled it, but then Reagan brought it back. (as an improved B1B aircraft)

Which is why it entered service in 1986, not because of technical reasons.

what about the Japanese F-1 and the Kawaski C-1's?

not finished yet.. need to read up on those and I am posting as time permits

TU160 was later then the B1B, much later then the original B1

an EW SU24 will be added, and probably more cost effective for Russia

HT66 will require research

read closer... the B1 historically came out 1975, and in this time line will come out 1968

I meant to say 1968, but Artitsa confused me by saying 1964.

Anyway: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B1B says 1986 for B1B and 1974 for B1

and

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-1.htm says that the B1 was cancelled in 1977 so it was presumably available a short while before that and the B1B was around in 1985

not finished yet.. need to read up on those and I am posting as time permits

TU160 was later then the B1B, much later then the original B1

an EW SU24 will be added, and probably more cost effective for Russia

HT66 will require research

Just say how much and it shall be done.

I think it's a tad unfair if the US gets it next generation uber bomber decades before everyone else get's their equivelants.

incidently, the US would be ahead in bomber development in this RP... its been building bombers since 1920, while China and the Scandic Union got into the game only in the late 1940s/early 1950s

Germany build most of the bombers for the Soviet Union, and those designers went on to other things

incidently, the US would be ahead in bomber development in this RP... its been building bombers since 1920, while China and the Scandic Union got into the game only in the late 1940s/early 1950s

Germany build most of the bombers for the Scandic Union, and those designers went on to other things

But 20 years is a considerable research gap........
considering how fast the SU and China have been catching up in other areas.

But 20 years is a considerable research gap........
considering how fast the SU and China have been catching up in other areas.

you will notice the Scandics get the TU22M before the US gets the B1, while the Nova bomber is about to show up as soon as I figure out where the post is

you will notice the Scandics get the TU22M before the US gets the B1, while the Nova bomber is about to show up as soon as I figure out where the post is

The Nova bomber?!
Please don't make me cry in pain anymore than I have to. Coudn't we just scrap it and have the Ht-66 instead?
Even a watered down version to begin with like a Ht-64 or something would be nice, anything but the Nova, please.......

The Nova bomber?!
Please don't make me cry in pain anymore than I have to. Coudn't we just scrap it and have the Ht-66 instead?
Even a watered down version to begin with like a Ht-64 or something would be nice, anything but the Nova, please.......


TG me links to those when you have a chance, I will be busy until this evening

TG me links to those when you have a chance, I will be busy until this evening

Links as in Stats?

Links as in Stats?

I think links as in RL information on the planes

I think links as in RL information on the planes

Which would be a teeny little problem since the Ht series of planes (Not helicopters) are all stuff that I make up and run by the people on the draftroom after giving them the timeframe that it's for.

I could get a watered down Ht-66 by tomorrow, but it will be only tenously based off RL life aircraft. For example the original Ht-66 is a massively upscaled Tu-22M.

Nothing for FNS eh? I mean, we're only an entire continent with the industrialialized level of Britain.

Wait. When did the FNS take over Brazil?

Wait. When did the FNS take over Brazil?

Mid 1950s I think.... :p

Still independent, just not very active.

Which would be a teeny little problem since the Ht series of planes (Not helicopters) are all stuff that I make up and run by the people on the draftroom after giving them the timeframe that it's for.

I could get a watered down Ht-66 by tomorrow, but it will be only tenously based off RL life aircraft. For example the original Ht-66 is a massively upscaled Tu-22M.

thats the link I want

Wait. When did the FNS take over Brazil?

it didn't, for a while Brazil had a player who vanished (a common problem it seems)

although I suppose someone should do its builds... I nominate Artisa

other aircraft coming soon

US
F14A Tomcat air combat 18, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor, carrier capable, cost 4 maintenance 2, US 1968 (RL 1972) (only heavy carriers and heavy air wings cost 1 extra for maintenance)

F15 Eagle air combat 20, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor and fighter, cost 4, maintenance 2, US 1968 (RL 1972)

both had engine issues and really entered production 1974, so works out correctly

C5 transport, air combat 1, strike 0, range long, can carry any non mechanized brigade or missile unit or helicopter unit

E3 Sentry air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, improved AWACs aircraft, special bonues cost 15, maintenance 10

FNS
Kfir I air combat 14, strike 4, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5 1964

China
Q6 (based on Super Enterard) air combat 9, strike 4, maritime strike 4, range long, all weather fighter bomber, cost 3, maintenance 1, 1968
JH7 air combat 10 (defense only), strike 5, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather bomber, cost 3, maintenance 1, 1965
J8 air combat 14, strike 1, range medium, air superiority fighter, cost 2, maintenance .5

Scandic Union
TU 128 air combat 10 (defense only), strike 2, range long, all weather defense suppression aircraft 1964 cost 4, maintenance 2

UK
Harrier MK1 air combat 9, strike 3, range short, VTOL aircraft, (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 3, maintenance 1 (first entered service 1969 so available 1964)

Russia
Yak 38 air combat 8, strike 2, range short, VTOL aircraft (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 3, maintenance 1 (first entered service 1971 so available 1964)

Japan
Mitsubishi C1 air combat 1, strike 0, range medium, STOL (can operate in primitive conditions), cost 2, maintenance .5 1964

Mitsubishi F1 air combat 8, strike 1, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather maritime attack aircraft 1964


aircraft with an offensive air combat value of 15 or higher can shoot down anti ship missiles and cruise missiles beginning at tech level 8, or tech level 7.5 if supported by AWACs aircraft beginning 1964

once cruise missiles become available (which will require research, tech level 8, and will initially be nuclear only), any strategic bomber with a rating of 8 or higher can carry them (each rating point is 2 cruise missiles)

improved cruise missiles and advanced cruise missiles will become available later with better capabilities

by the way, if I missed anything major, let me know

F16, A10 will be later, as will SU25 and some others

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/595/ironhawk8xg.jpg

Iron Hawk:

4th generation Chinese Air Superiority Fighter, developed and produced in a joint effort by China Avionics and the newly established Yun Feng* Industries (the company is the new name for "Chinese Dassault") as the Chinese government demands a next generation fighter to counter the rapidly developing Western fighters. China is determined not to fall behind in fighter parity with the West.

Crew: 2
Length: 19 m
Wingspan: 15m
Height: 5m
Empty weight: 20,000 kg
Loaded weight: 30,000 kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 40,000 kg
Powerplant: 2x China Avionics TF-17 Turbofans: 17,000 kgf each
Net Thrust: 34,000 kgf
Maximum Fuel: 12,000 kg
Maximum Ordiance (Weapons load): 6,000 kg
Normal Combat Weight: 38,000 kg
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2
Range: 1,200 kilometers
Service ceiling: 18,000 meters
Rate of climb: 253 meters / second
Thrust/weight: 0.9

I can't seem to find stats for the Mirage-G, so I decided to try to come up with a new custom aircraft. I used the Design-A-Fighter tutorial over at the NS Draftroom to get an approximate stat / ratios for everything. In addition, my fighter has a 1,200 kilometer range, which should put it in the "Long" category. The Mirage-G has supposedly a 4,000 kilometer range, so I downsized the range by almost 3/4 to 1,000 - 1,200 kilometers.

And instead of naming it "Mirage-G" or copying the Mirage-G directly, this plane will be named "Iron Hawk".

* = (roughly translated into "Iron Phoenix")

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/595/ironhawk8xg.jpg

Iron Hawk:

4th generation Chinese Air Superiority Fighter, developed and produced in a joint effort by China Avionics and the newly established Yun Feng* Industries (the company is the new name for "Chinese Dassault") as the Chinese government demands a next generation fighter to counter the rapidly developing Western fighters. China is determined not to fall behind in fighter parity with the West.

Crew: 2
Length: 19 m
Wingspan: 15m
Height: 5m
Empty weight: 20,000 kg
Loaded weight: 30,000 kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 40,000 kg
Powerplant: 2x China Avionics TF-17 Turbofans: 17,000 kgf each
Net Thrust: 34,000 kgf
Maximum Fuel: 12,000 kg
Maximum Ordiance (Weapons load): 6,000 kg
Normal Combat Weight: 38,000 kg
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2
Range: 1,200 kilometers
Service ceiling: 18,000 meters
Rate of climb: 253 meters / second
Thrust/weight: 0.9

I can't seem to find stats for the Mirage-G, so I decided to try to come up with a new custom aircraft. I used the Design-A-Fighter tutorial over at the NS Draftroom to get an approximate stat / ratios for everything. In addition, my fighter has a 1,200 kilometer range, which should put it in the "Long" category. The Mirage-G has supposedly a 4,000 kilometer range, so I downsized the range by almost 3/4 to 1,000 - 1,200 kilometers.

And instead of naming it "Mirage-G" or copying the Mirage-G directly, this plane will be named "Iron Hawk".

* = (roughly translated into "Iron Phoenix")


forward swept wings aren't doable even now in RL without excessive computer controls and fly by wire

we aren't there yet... I did give you stats for the Mirage G though.. see above

I say, didi you happen to catch my post where the Frecnh are to work with the Russians (and any other EEC members) to develop a superior VTOL Fighter Craft For the EEC?

I say, didi you happen to catch my post where the Frecnh are to work with the Russians (and any other EEC members) to develop a superior VTOL Fighter Craft For the EEC?

ooc
yes, you come up with the Yak 38 (which I rated a little better then in real life)

forward swept wings aren't doable even now in RL without excessive computer controls and fly by wire

we aren't there yet... I did give you stats for the Mirage G though.. see above

Consider the wings reversed (flip them backwards). The picture is just an approximation of what the aircraft looks like. Just flip them around to "swept wings" like the Mirage-G and the F-14 and that should do it. This could be the Mirage-H or Mirage VI or some such thing, China's version of the F-15 Eagle. I figure this will probably fall somewhere between the F-14 and F-15 in terms of stats and "game strength". I also figure I can build this in 1968 - 1970 in E20.

Besides, I don't understand why the Mirage-G range is "Medium" whereas sources say that the Mirage-G has a 4,000 kilometer range while the F-14's and F-15's only has a range of roughly 1,000 kilometers (and considered "Long").

Here's a link to the Ht-66...

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=1949&st=0&#entry658831

tag

Consider the wings reversed (flip them backwards). The picture is just an approximation of what the aircraft looks like. Just flip them around to "swept wings" like the Mirage-G and the F-14 and that should do it. This could be the Mirage-H or Mirage VI or some such thing, China's version of the F-15 Eagle. I figure this will probably fall somewhere between the F-14 and F-15 in terms of stats and "game strength". I also figure I can build this in 1968 - 1970 in E20.

Besides, I don't understand why the Mirage-G range is "Medium" whereas sources say that the Mirage-G has a 4,000 kilometer range while the F-14's and F-15's only has a range of roughly 1,000 kilometers (and considered "Long").

Here's a link to the Ht-66...

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=1949&st=0&#entry658831

F15 has a 2500 mile range, while the Mirage G (although its unclear which version) has a range of 3000 NM (roughly the same). So I can adjust the range. However, the Mirage is an interceptor, while the F15 is an air superiority fighter and will be superior to the Mirage

HT66 will not be available until 1970 at the earliest as its essentially the B1 or Blackjack, depending on when you get to tech level 8 (or whoever produces it)

the aircraft you posted is a 4th generation fighter, and is Tech level 8. So it will be called the Nankong J10 and will be competitive with the F14 or F16 (F16 will come out at the same time). Same rules as the HT66 for the same reasons.

Nankong will replace Dassault as far as naming conventions go (as they actually build aircraft in China in RL)

F15 has a 2500 mile range, while the Mirage G (although its unclear which version) has a range of 3000 NM (roughly the same). So I can adjust the range. However, the Mirage is an interceptor, while the F15 is an air superiority fighter and will be superior to the Mirage

Thanks. However, I'm slightly confused about one thing though.

I don't quite understand the difference between "interceptor" and "Air superiority". I thought they mean the same thing- basically shoot down all aircraft whenever possible, mainly air-to-air combat?

HT66 will not be available until 1970 at the earliest as its essentially the B1 or Blackjack, depending on when you get to tech level 8 (or whoever produces it)

Thats fine by me- 1970 it is then.

the aircraft you posted is a 4th generation fighter, and is Tech level 8. So it will be called the Nankong J10 and will be competitive with the F14 or F16 (F16 will come out at the same time). Same rules as the HT66 for the same reasons.

Also fine by me. I figure this aircraft should hold its own aganist F-14, F-15, anf F-16 (thats what I designed this aircraft for).

Nankong will replace Dassault as far as naming conventions go (as they actually build aircraft in China in RL)

Hmm... I was thinking of "Yun Feng Industries" which loosely translated into English would mean "Iron Phoenix Industries", something appoporiate for aircraft, and the "phoenix" touch meaning re-invent new aircraft, like the phoenix rising from its own ashes.

Would it be a stretch to have "Nankong" be renamed "Yun Feng" or in English, "Iron Phoenix"?

------------------------------

Will the forward swept wings version become available in Tech Level 9? (2010 in RL or beyond)

If so, I'd like to re-use that picture if possible for a future forward swept wing version by 1990 or later (E20 timeline).

Oi, when do MiG-29, Su-25, Su-27, and MiG-27 come oot?

the F15 and F14 are the first of the 4th generation fighters.. the Mig 29, Su 27 came out nearly 15 years later and still didn't match the F15C and where eclipsed by the F22 (which is a 5th generation fighter)

An interceptor is designed to shoot down bombers, relies on high speed, long range and missiles. An air superiority fighter is designed to shoot down everything, and generally has a less powerful radar system but more manueverability.

One reason the F15 is so expensive is that it can do both. Same with the F14

Mig 29 and SU27 are air superiority fighters.. the Mig31 is an interceptor

the Nankong company is a real company... builds aircraft in China in real life. It acquiring China Dassault is reasonable

In this universe the Mig 29 and Su 27 will come out sooner, probably mid 70s. They were built to try and deal with the F15 which was built to deal with the Mig 27 which was built to deal with the F4E which was designed to deal with the Mig21 etc.

Sharina, I have misgivings about your fighter, so I am going to think about it some more. The problem I have with player designs is that I am not qualified to judge their actual value unless there is historical data available. So I know what a Mig 27 can do versus an F15 but do not know what an aircraft that hasn't seen action can do.

Which is why I prefer real life designs.

the F15 and F14 are the first of the 4th generation fighters.. the Mig 29, Su 27 came out nearly 15 years later and still didn't match the F15C and where eclipsed by the F22 (which is a 5th generation fighter)

An interceptor is designed to shoot down bombers, relies on high speed, long range and missiles. An air superiority fighter is designed to shoot down everything, and generally has a less powerful radar system but more manueverability.

One reason the F15 is so expensive is that it can do both. Same with the F14

Mig 29 and SU27 are air superiority fighters.. the Mig31 is an interceptor

Thanks for clearing that up.

the Nankong company is a real company... builds aircraft in China in real life. It acquiring China Dassault is reasonable

No problem.

In this universe the Mig 29 and Su 27 will come out sooner, probably mid 70s. They were built to try and deal with the F15 which was built to deal with the Mig 27 which was built to deal with the F4E which was designed to deal with the Mig21 etc.

Hence the "Iron Hawk" fighter- it will be built to deal with the F-14 and F-15 so that China and the SCT can maintain air superiority at least over their homelands.

Sharina, I have misgivings about your fighter, so I am going to think about it some more. The problem I have with player designs is that I am not qualified to judge their actual value unless there is historical data available. So I know what a Mig 27 can do versus an F15 but do not know what an aircraft that hasn't seen action can do.

Which is why I prefer real life designs.

If you look closely at the raw stats I gave for the "Iron Hawk", its roughly a few percent higher than the F-14 in a few areas. Probably 1% to 10% increases in payload, rate of climb, total weight, etc.

I do understand where you're coming from with "historical" military stuff, GB. However, there's a few issues with that.

1. In E20, Russia doesn't have the overwhelming drive to match the US in terms of aircraft, tanks, weapons, nuclear stuff, etc. because in E20, instead of being Cold War foes, Russia and US are allied. Meaning Russia can easily acquire US hardware, whereas in RL, it would be a pipe dream (during Cold War, I mean).

2. China "replaces" the USSR in E20 as the major Cold War foe of the US, thus, it stands to reason that most weapons designed to counter US and OA weapons (like F-14's, F-15's, Patton tanks, M1A1 Abrams tanks, Nimitz Carriers, B-52 bombers, etc.) would be developed by China.

3. Most of the "historical" counters to the US and OA stuff in E20 are built by Russia and the CSPS (MiG's, Sukhoi's, Tupolev's, T-series tanks, Merkava, etc.), not China. In fact, it should be China that builds these counter-stuff to the US and OA weapons and such, not Russia. CSPS can, but they "took" all the historical designs, leaving China with no historical counter-US or counter-OA weapons to use (Dassault is sticky- as now its split, and possibly messy to figure out who gets what Dassault "historical" stuff in E20 now)

4. In E20, China has a much more powerful economy, at same technological level as the US and most of OA, and solid social services (matches E20's US- both China and US in E20 have Level IV social services). This means E20 China will be able to design substantially better tanks, planes, vehicles, weapons, etc. than RL China during the 1960's through 1990's. RL China had the whole communism, terrible management, Mao's purges, "Great Leap Forward", "Cultural Revolution", etc. meaning quite a bit of skilled people were executed and such, similiar to what happened with Stalin and RL Russia (especially the aircraft sector). China hasn't gotten in bed with Russia in E20, unlike in RL (meaning no T-Series tanks or MiG deriative aircraft). With Level IV social services, China has the capacity to have scientists, engineers, and such just as good as the US and OA (colleges and good education means lots of intelligent and innoative people, and healthcare keeps these scientists and engineers alive).

To give a perpsective... China should be able to design and develop a tank similiar to the Type 99 (not the Type 99 itself as China in E20 didn't import Russian designs or get them en-masse like in RL) at the same time Britain and US comes out with their tanks (Challenger II and Abrams, respectively) in the 1970's instead of in 1999-2001 (when Type 99 was developed in RL). In addition, improvements made to the Type 99's shortcomings could be done as well by 1980's (Type 99-2 or something)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99

By the same token, China should be able to build fighters, bombers, heliocopters, navy vessels, APC's, IFV's, etc. comparable to the US and OA, due to a couple of reasons.

1. China will reach subsquent tech levels at the same time as the US, UK, Germany, SU, etc. meaning technological parity.

2. China is democratic and capitalist (like the US). has a free market system (like the US), Level IV services (like the US), encourages competition between defense / military contractors (like what happens with Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon, General Electric, etc. in RL), and China has far greater "need" to come up with designs to counter the US and OA weapons than in RL.

All these factors mean China should be making decent stuff, instead of shitty RL equipment and weapons, and again, the problem is that most "historical" counter-stuff are already "taken" by other nations like Russia and CSPS. In addition, in this alternate timeline, there does lie the potential to develop aircraft, tanks, APC's, navy vessels, heliocopters, etc. that are different than RL historical ones (or better than RL historical ones or even hybrids of 2 or more RL historical stuff like a plane based off a hybrid-ization of the stats of, say, a MiG-31 and the Dassault Rafale).

Hope all that made sense. Might seem a little confusing but hopefully people can understand what I'm trying to say here.

Hope all that made sense. Might seem a little confusing but hopefully people can understand what I'm trying to say here.

and I have been giving you decent and competitive aircraft, and in the game, actual military equipment for ground units is handled simply so that we don't have to worrry about that kind of thing. China in this RP has much better aircraft, ships, military equipment then it does in RL precisely because its a modern nation

Read over recent aircraft additions in the last couple of pages, and you will see China is indeed getting good and competitive aircraft.

You do not have second rate crappy stuff

I want the LeClerc :(

I want the LeClerc :(

thats a tech level 8 tank

Which reminds me, does anyone have any battleships they wish to sell?

I want the LeClerc :(

Isn't the leClerc a French tank?

Isn't the leClerc a French tank?

yes it is

Sukiaida, why on earth do you want a battleship? The only ones the US have in commission were refitted as missile ships (by removing the rear turret) and a for amphibious gunfire support. No one has built one since 1945 either.

Why? The same reason the United States used them during the First Gulf War. Modern weapons can knock on your door and then blow up only when you answer it. But nothing beats shore bombardment like a Battleship.

Why? The same reason the United States used them during the First Gulf War. Modern weapons can knock on your door and then blow up only when you answer it. But nothing beats shore bombardment like a Battleship.

But Missle Cruiser can do the same, and they do have more range then Battleships in terms of bombardment on your foes defense lines.

Which is why I want a battleship with the missles and the guns. And sorry until recently nothing is as good as a battleships guns on shore bombardment. It's the pounding power versus the straight power. It's like a sniper and a howitzer. The sniper can drill a nice hole through a man at a mile away, but a howitzer is needed for those nice bombardments.

thats a tech level 8 tank
I'm aware. Im just a little peeved that there are no tanks coming my way... unless you plan on giving me the Israeli Sabre or some such.

Argentina invents the Tanque Argentino Mediano (TAM) and Vehiculo de Combate Transporte de Personal (VCTP) in the mid 70's in RL so probably around the late 60's here. If you're looking for a local tank that is.

The VCTP is particularly adaptable with mortar, self propelled artillery, rocket, command, ARV, supply, control and AA variants.

The TAM has MLRS and ARV versions as well. There was also a version with a 155mm howitzer turret which replaces the standard British made 105mm L7 cannon.

Though both will be available to Germany as well as much of the design team was from Henschel (unless they moved somewhere in this RP).

and I have been giving you decent and competitive aircraft, and in the game, actual military equipment for ground units is handled simply so that we don't have to worrry about that kind of thing. China in this RP has much better aircraft, ships, military equipment then it does in RL precisely because its a modern nation

Read over recent aircraft additions in the last couple of pages, and you will see China is indeed getting good and competitive aircraft.

You do not have second rate crappy stuff

Yeah, I realize that.

I was just stating the reasons why if we use "historical" units, then China would be stuck with second rate crappy stuff like in RL.

In situations like these, it does call for custom aircraft or tanks or ships or what have you. To alleviate the problems of comparing the custom stuff to RL stuff, I have a solution.

1. Take a RL weapon or vehicle or plane.

2. Increase all of its RL stats by a set percent (10%, 20%, or what have you)

3. Use the in-game stats given for the RL units.

4. Add that percent increase to the in-game stats of RL units.

Example.... (walk through the steps)

1. I want to design a Chinese version of the F-14 (RL vehicle).

2. Increase all the RL stats of the F-14 by 10% (weight, payload, fuel, range, engine power, etc.)

3. In-game stats of F-14 = Combat 18, Strike 1, Long Range (2,500 miles), etc.

4. Chinese F-14 (the "Iron Hawk") should be... Combat 19, Strike 1, Long Range (2,750 miles), etc.... a 10% increase over the F-14's in-game stats.

As you can see, this should let the "Iron Hawk" fall right in between the F-14 and F-15- something which the "Iron Hawk" was designed for (my objective). I'm not complaining about China's building decent units or anything of the sort- I was only highlighting the problems of using RL historical stuff where China is concerned in E20 (and Colombia / FNS in E20 as well because in RL Colombia and South America is still Third World).

I'm happy with the stuff I have for China in the next few game years- I'm not complaining about that. Just trying to explain my reasoning and why I'd like that "Iron Hawk" fighter, thats all.

Seems to me that the tank looks a lot like the Leopard 1, but maybe Im crazy.

Similar superficially, the TAM is smaller (lower profile and shorter), it's also quicker, lighter and better armoured. The results of a decade more of German technological development. The TAM really isn't too bad of a tank. Though it has never seen combat in RL (outside of a few minor appearances in coups!).

I'm aware. Im just a little peeved that there are no tanks coming my way... unless you plan on giving me the Israeli Sabre or some such.

look up the Cadallac Gage tanks and armored vehicles

Look up the Leopard 1 and see that it was designed by Porsche... who moved to Colombia.

IMPORTANT Chinese military developments:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11212078&postcount=66

aircraft list updated.. all planes available as of 1964 unless another date is specifically indicated

A few minor nitpicks.

1. The Mirage-G should be "Long Range" instead of "Medium Range".

2. I'm not sure what advantages the H-7 Lei has over the Ht-64. According to the list, the H-7 Lei is more expensive to build AND maintain than the Ht-64 and has 2 points less "strike rating" than the Ht-64... so why should China build the H-7's when it can build the cheaper and more effective Ht-64's soon?

3. I have already built Nova class AEW aircraft (6 engined AEW aircraft, which has A LOT of room for improvements and considerably more "beefy" AEW equipment- a 250 ton payload does wonders for space for the AEW equipment) but I don't see it in the list.

4. I have a question- when will China be able to build its own spy aircraft or even aircraft that can match the SR-71 Blackbird or the U-1 (Mach 3, flies at 80,000+ feet, and can spy on lots and lots of land or sea)?

A few minor nitpicks.

1. The Mirage-G should be "Long Range" instead of "Medium Range".

2. I'm not sure what advantages the H-7 Lei has over the Ht-64. According to the list, the H-7 Lei is more expensive to build AND maintain than the Ht-64 and has 2 points less "strike rating" than the Ht-64... so why should China build the H-7's when it can build the cheaper and more effective Ht-64's soon?

3. I have already built Nova class AEW aircraft (6 engined AEW aircraft, which has A LOT of room for improvements and considerably more "beefy" AEW equipment- a 250 ton payload does wonders for space for the AEW equipment) but I don't see it in the list.

4. I have a question- when will China be able to build its own spy aircraft or even aircraft that can match the SR-71 Blackbird or the U-1 (Mach 3, flies at 80,000+ feet, and can spy on lots and lots of land or sea)?

see the note that says the H-7 can be used as an intelligence gathering aircraft (which means its like the SR71 in that respect)

don't remember the Nova class AEW aircraft, and I need a link to the original posts on the Nova please

see the note that says the H-7 can be used as an intelligence gathering aircraft (which means its like the SR71 in that respect)

don't remember the Nova class AEW aircraft, and I need a link to the original posts on the Nova please

Right here.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10920843&postcount=408

Also, I was wondering what in-game effects my military projects will have... the 3 sled testing sites (like the Holloman in RL) and the 4 "proving grounds" in China that resembles Vandenburg, Puma, Fort Bragg, and Mojave Desert testing sites in RL?

What tech level is the Al-Khalid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid) Tank? 8? I can't wait till I can mass-produce a local tank that is actually good...

What tech level is the Al-Khalid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid) Tank? 8? I can't wait till I can mass-produce a local tank that is actually good...

China can help produce these tanks (like in RL). Once China hits Tech 8, India can contract China to produce these tanks for India (as China has better electronics and such).

China can help produce these tanks (like in RL). Once China hits Tech 8, India can contract China to produce these tanks for India (as China has better electronics and such).

its tech level 8

its tech level 8

So basically once China hits Tech 8, it can build these tanks for India (while working on China's own tech 8 tanks like the Type 99 or some such thing) as India won't be able to build these tanks until like 1990 or 2000 in E20 timeline when India probably reaches Tech 8?

Nova series of aircraft added to first page

remember, when military units are built, they do not all show up at the start of the year or end of the year.

So for example, 800 ICBMs and their silos would be spread out over 12 months so that 12% are added each month.

SCT intelligence picks up serious rumblings in the US regarding launching a preemptive strike at China before it deploys the remainder of its ICBM force.

SCT intelligence picks up serious rumblings in the US regarding launching a preemptive strike at China before it deploys the remainder of its ICBM force.

Small bits of intelligence about a counterstrike by other SCT members in such an event are carefully leaked back.

Any intelligence shows that the southern islands are no threat. (Aka I don't believe Indonesia, Australia, or The Philippines have nuclear weapons.)

Australia does actually, and the ICBM's to carry them.

Ahhh well that is a pickle. Oh well.

Deep in the Jungles of Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, and Bolivia, work was being done. Long roads were being paved into the heart of wilderness; Camo netting being splayed above to prevent easy detection of the traffic by air/space. Several hours drive would reveal massive construction facilities all covered by this neeting. Great Machines churning the ground, digging massive wells. Large logging machines cut the ancient trees. Men built permanent concrete buildings below much of the ground, reinforced with huge steel frames, built to withstand direct impacts.

Underneath the ground, large networks of underground tunnels were created out of more concrete and steel. Around each site huge electrified fences were erected while SAM batteries were transported in. All the while covered by camo netting and the Jungles natural ability to hide anything.

Soon massive missiles would be brought in and deposited in each silo. Generally a ring of eight silos would surround one operations hub with tunnels leading to each. Every Silo would have accomodations for three shifts of personel, TV, and Phone Service. Every Weekend shifts would rotate to the surface for R&R, while a unit of South American Soldiers stand watch. The camo netting never removed. There would be no trace to these facilities. The highway leading to them had a check point at the far end underneath the ever protecting netting which stretched all along. There were dozens of such facilities, soon to be almost a hundred in the entire South American Continent.

How long does it take to raise a garrison unit?

How long does it take to raise a garrison unit?

3 turns (6 months) so if you start in February, its ready for service by July
garrison units consist of an infantry division (mostly MPs or older men who don't have to march a lot), an air defense group, misc HQ units, and some engineers and other support units. Its trained to occupy territory, and is not an offensive unit by any means.

The Turks are starting to build one now then using 3 points lended from Poland.

Russia's 10 Garrison Units, 5 reserve flak, Su-5s and AD-1s were called into service in January (US crisis) and are still mobilizing (Greece Crisis)

Could someone help me figure out what remains of the Arab Federation Armed Forces? As of 1962 (the last build I could find) they were:

2 Highly Trained Garrison
1 Highly Trained Armored Divison
4 Highly Trained Light Infantry
2 Highly Trained Mechanized Artillery
4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
4 TA 200-2
1 Coastal Patrol-.25

How accurate is this after the civil war?

To Saddam’s Special Republican Guard (Defends Baghdad and protects Saddam)
1 Highly Trained Garrison Unit
To Saddam’s Republican Guard (Saddam’s Primary Army against Federation forces)
2 Infantry Divisions
1 Artillery Division
1 Armored Division
1 HQ
Also giving them 1 batch of Sarin Gas and 1 batch of Distilled Mustard Gas.

Here's what I trained/gave you at the beginning of the civil war. I also paid your munitions.

The hard lessons of war – Twilight War 1964

Air power
Both sides discover that aircraft like the Yak 25, Arrow, Mig 25 and Lightning are excellent for finding and shooting down heavy bombers like the Tu22 and Vulcan but are poorly designed for air to air combat with another fighter. They lack the maneuverability of aircraft like the Mirage V and F4 and also lack the ability to carry a useful bomb load. The air to air missile also turn out to be only a weapon of promise as only between 10 – 20% of air to air missiles actually hit targets, and guns prove to be still the main weapon of a fighter plane. The interceptors, equipped to carry lots of air to air missiles, lack guns or enough ammunition for their guns to be as effective as they might be otherwise.

SAMs and AAA fire prove to be much more effective then anticipated and all air forces involved rapidly regret not having dedicated defense suppression units deployed as losses climb.

As the war goes on, the interceptors that make up the bulk of fighter strength are replaced by new aircraft like the Mirage V, F4G and Mirage F1, or older aircraft like the Draken and Mirage III. These aircraft, with their heavy cannon armament and ability to also carry a useful bomb load, replace the over specialized interceptors.

Tactics are also developed to deal with Flak and SAM units, and specialized units of Wild Weasel defense suppression aircraft see increasing use.

The warring powers also discover they lack nearly enough tankers or transport aircraft. While the US Air Force is able to with relative ease set up air bridges from North America to Asia, none of the warring powers have nearly enough transports to even remotely consider such efforts. Therefore, the allied powers are forced to shift forces around by rail and ship while the CSPS nations lose their ability to influence events in Central Asia or elsewhere as they lack enough air transports to be useful.

The few transport aircraft units that make it to China provide the difference between life or death of millions, and the UN begins encouraging member nations who are assisting in the effort there to buy or build more.

The helicopter gunship sees its first combat service, and proves highly useful in Russia and the Aegean. Once again, not enough are available but they are invaluable when they are present, making an attacking force two or three times as powerful as it would be otherwise and offering similar advantages on the defensive.

Naval Power
Surface vessels turn out to have a much shorter combat life then pre war planners expected. The mine, which is used in large numbers becomes decisive as well. The British, Italians and French are forced to spend months clearing the Dardenelles after Turkey surrenders, delaying their entry into the Black Sea. Mines are also decisive in the first major battle between surface ships, inflicting a significant portion of the losses. Navies also discover they are still highly vulnerable to aircraft and more importantly, stand off missiles launched by aircraft. Air defense computers and radar plots are simply inadequate to deal with more then a few missiles at a time, and the CSPS tactic of using heavy bombers to launch dozens of missiles results in the sinking of 2 carriers and damage or loss of a number of other ships. Only interception out of missile launch range is effective, and ultimately makes the difference in the defeat of Turkey.

Missile boats turn out to be highly useful off Arabia and in the Aegean, but lack the range to do more than this. However, their usefulness does turn out to be far more then expected and they are actually decisive off Arabia.

Submarines are also highly effective, and turn out to be deadly weapons when used against one another. Most of the losses suffered by the CSPS are caused by British submarines.

Ground combat
The war sees the first use of body armor by soldiers since the Middle Ages, and flak jackets reduce the number of dead as they provide considerable protection from shell and bomb fragments. They aren’t able to stop a direct hit by a rifle or assault rifle, but many wounds that would have killed a soldier in early wars are now survivable. Especially with the much higher quality medical care available and increased use of ambulance helicopters, which both sides chose to treat as noncombatant vehicles and refrain usually from shooting at.

The huge frontages in Russia and Central Asia, along with the ever present fear that one side or the other would use nuclear weapons and continual risk of air attack by deadly strike and bomber aircraft force a major revision in tactics as well. Units operate as independent battalions and brigades, with their headquarters elements far to the rear. The fact that all military vehicles are four wheel drive makes supply easier, and dramatically more effective radios is also highly important. But dispersion is critical on the modern battlefield, as a massed force is too tempting a target, and in a major fight, the high speed of mechanized units allows them to concentrate quickly when needed in any event.

OUT of production air units still found in service or are readily available
maintenace costs are .5 unless otherwise indicated

AD1 Skyraider air combat 2, naval strike rating 6, strike rating 4, range short (STOL capable) (US)
F100 Super Saber air combat 8, strike rating 2, range medium, (US)
Gloster Javalin aircombat 8, strike rating 1, range long (UK) all weather
Mig 17 air combat 7, strike rating 1, range short, all weather (Poland)
Mig 19 air combat 8, strike rating 1, range short (Poland)
Dassault Mystere IV air combat 7, strike rating 2, range medium (China/France)
TA200 air combat 9, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather (Germany)

3rd Generation Jet fighters and Fighter bombers Cost 3, maintenance 1
F101B Voodoo all weather interceptor air combat 10, strike 1, range long (US) out of production
F104 Starfighter interceptor, air combat 11, strike 1, range short (US) out of production
(neither the F101 or F104 are in production any longer)
M107C fighter, air combat 11, strike 3, range medium, (Colombia)
BAC Lightning air combat 12, strike rating 2, range short (UK)
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 13, strike rating 2, range medium (France/China)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 10, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather, (France/China)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 14, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather (France/China)
F8U Crusader, air combat 13, strike 1, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Su-19 Fighter air combat 13, strike rating 1, range medium (Russia)
Yak 25 air combat 11, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (Russia)
F4E Phantom, air combat 14, strike 4, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Saab J35 Draken air combat 13, strike 2, range medium, all weather interceptor (strike version air combat 11, strike 4) (SU)
Avro Arrow air combat 13, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (US/Canada)
Hal Marut air combat 11, strike 3, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India)
TA202F all weather interceptor air combat 13, strike 2, range short, all weather cost 3, maintenance .5 (Germany)
MIG25 air combat 14, strike 0, range medium, all weather interceptor / intelligence gathering aircraft (Poland / Ukraine)
Avro Arrow II air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor US/Canada

IL28 (Hong 5) medium bomber air combat 5, naval strike 1, strike rating 5, range medium (Korea)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 6, range medium (US/UK)
F105 light bomber, air combat 9, strike rating 5, range medium (US) can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 3)(single engine)
A4 Skyhawk carrier light bomber , air combat 7, strike rating 4, range medium (US)(single engine)
TA183D air combat 6, strike rating 2, range medium (Germany) single engine
Hawker Hunter air combat 8, strike rating 3, range medium (UK) single engine
Su 5 air combat 6, strike rating 3, range short (Russia) single engine
Mig 15bis air combat 6, strike rating 2, range short (Poland) single engine
A5 Vigilante air combat 8, strike 4 (nuclear capable, all weather), range medium, all weather (US) (single engine) out of production

Avro Shackleton air combat 2, naval strike 4, strike rating 2, range long, ASW/all weather capable, (UK) maintenance .5 out of production
P2V Neptune air combat rating 2, naval strike rating 5, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather capable, maritime patrol aircraft (US) out of production, maintenance .5
C133 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can reorganize up to 2 aircraft and / or IRBM/ICBM missile units maintenance 1
C82 Flying Boxcar air combat 0, can airlift 1 light division or paradrop 1 brigade, range medium, maintenance .25, can refuel by air, out of production, STOL capable (US)
C124 Globemaster air combat 0, can airlift 2 light divisions. cost 4 Range intercontinental, out of production maintenance cost .5 (US)


Helicopter Units
tech level 7 Helicopter units cost 2, maintenance .25
(can lift 1 light infantry, alpine, marine light infantry or airborne brigade)


some changes

Nuclear Warfare



4th generation missiles cannot be built until tech level 8 and another 12 points of research. CEP improves to 10 meters. MIRVs can be carried (limit 10)


Cruise missiles Require tech level 8, 3rd generation ICBM technology (for guideance), improved communications satellites (for guidance) plus 24 points of research (12 a year for 2 years) CEP 100 meters, air combat rating 16 (defense only) range long, can be carried by ships, submarines, or heavy or intercontinental bombers. Each missile costs .10 points. Destroyers can carry 4, attack submarines 4, cruisers 10, battleships 20, medium, heavy and strategic bombers 1 missile per strike rating. Cruise missiles can intercepted by fighters, or by tech level 8 air defense systems.

.

more new stuff

is it 4 cruise missiles per attack submarine, so an SSK unit can have 20, or is it only 4 for an SSN?

EDIT- also, is the F1 an air superiority fighter or an interceptor? Wikipedia saya it's Air Superiority Fighter, but it's listed as an interceptor on the front page

is it 4 cruise missiles per attack submarine, so an SSK unit can have 20, or is it only 4 for an SSN?

EDIT- also, is the F1 an air superiority fighter or an interceptor? Wikipedia saya it's Air Superiority Fighter, but it's listed as an interceptor on the front page

nuclear attack subs only... they are a lot bigger in tonnage then SSKs

its going to be an air superiority fighter, and the Mirage 2000 is about to show up too

I pasted the wrong document and will fix that this evening

But certain SSK's have the capability to carry ASM's.. also what about SSGN's?

Besides that, the Russian Battlecruisers (name escapes me) can certainly hold much more than 20 missiles. Perhaps the ability to create a Missile Battleship with VLS tubes for an increased price or the same with Cruisers.

But certain SSK's have the capability to carry ASM's.. also what about SSGN's?

Besides that, the Russian Battlecruisers (name escapes me) can certainly hold much more than 20 missiles. Perhaps the ability to create a Missile Battleship with VLS tubes for an increased price or the same with Cruisers.

I will get to that when I do naval units, which will be soon

Air Forces
Air Forces
Important Note: Maintenance does not upgrade aircraft, it simply keeps them flying. You have to buy new aircraft to get new aircraft, unless it is a simple improvement of the same type (B model replaced by C model for example).

STOL: Aircraft marked with STOL and all helicopters do not need an airbase to land and operate from. They can even use a highway in an emergency or a reasonably prepared grass or snow field. STOL aircraft can also operate from carriers.

Also important note: Carrier air wings are purchased as Naval Units, see above.

Pilots:
You must have one pilot unit per aircraft unit in order to operate the aircraft. You can have more or less if you chose to do so. Active and Reserve pilots can be expert or below average or average.

Below Average pilots: cost: 2 points, maintenance free, training time 6 months
Average pilots: cost: 2 points, maintenance .25, training time 1 year
Expert pilots: cost: 4 points, maintenance .5 points, training time 2 years or 1 year combat
Elite pilots: cost 6 points, take 2 years to train, and are only available to nations that fought in the Twilight War
Top Gun School: costs 10 points, allows you to retain the possibility of having elite pilots or get them if you didn’t have pilots that fought in the Twilight War

editing in progress

new stuff

Air Forces

Fighter and fighter bombers
Available 1965 cost 3 maintenance .5 unless otherwise indicated
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 13, strike rating 2, range medium (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 10, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather, (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 14, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather (France/China)
Hal Marut air combat 11, strike 3, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India)
J8 air combat 14, strike 1, range medium, air superiority fighter, cost 2, maintenance .5 China / Korea
Kfir I air combat 14, strike 4, range medium, cost 2,maintenance .5 FNS
F4G Phantom Air combat 15, strike 5, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, US (Texas, Columbia, New England, Huron)
Avro Arrow II air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor Canada (Huron)
Su 22 air combat 13, strike 3, range medium, Russia
Mig 23 Air combat 15, strike 2, range short, Poland
Tornado I air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor UK/Germany/Italy (air defense version of Tornado)
China Aviation / Mirage G air combat 15, strike 3, range long, all weather interceptor China
Mirage F1 air combat 15, strike 2, range medium, all weather fighter France
F5B/T38 fighter bomber / trainer air combat 13, strike 2, range short, cost 2, maintenance .25 (US)
F12 Blackbird air combat 16, strike 0, range long, cost 10, maintenance 5, all weather interceptor version 1958 (FNS) can intercept any aircraft up to 100,000 feet
Dornier Alphajet bomber / trainer air combat 11,strike 3, range short, Germany Cost 2, maintenance .25
Hawker Hawk bomber / trainer air combat 11, strike 2, range medium, UK
Cost 2, maintenance .25
Harrier MK1 air combat 9, strike 3, range short, VTOL aircraft, (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 3, maintenance 1 (first entered service 1969 so available 1964) UK
Yak 38 air combat 8, strike 2, range short, VTOL aircraft (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 3, maintenance 1 (first entered service 1971 so available 1964) Russia

Available 1968 or when Tech level 8 is reached
F15A Eagle air combat 22, interceptor 15, strike 1, range long, cost 6, maintenance 2, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F14A Tomcat air combat 16, interceptor 20, strike 1, range medium, cost 6, maintenance 2, all weather fighter / interceptor, heavy carrier capable (which increases costs of heavy air groups by 2, and maintenance by 1)
Mig 21S air combat 16, strike 2, range short, STOL capable, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Poland)
Viggen air combat 18, strike 2, range medium, cost 4, maintenance 1, all weather fighter (Sweden)

Available 1972 or when Tech level 8 is reached
Mirage 2000 air combat 18, strike 2, range medium, cost 4, maintenance 1, all weather fighter bomber (France)
F16A Falcon air combat 18, strike 2, range medium, cost 4, maintenance 1, fighter bomber (Texas)
Cobra (based on YF17 which leads to F18) air combat 18, strike 3, range medium, cost 4, maintenance 1, fighter bomber (FNS)
J10 (based on Lavi which is based on F16) air combat 18, strike 1, range medium, cost 4, maintenance 1, fighter (Korea)
Su 27 air combat 20, strike 1, range medium, cost 5, maintenance 2, all weather fighter (Russia)
Mig 29 air combat 20, strike 1, range short, cost 5, maintenance 2, all weather fighter (Poland)

editing in progress

more new stuff... notice the pretty new fighters

Light Bombers
Fiat G.91 (Italy) air combat 6, strike rating 3, range short (Italy) Single engine
SEPCAT Jaguar air combat 10, strike 5, range medium, all weather bomber UK/France Cost 3, maintenance 1 (single engine)
HAL Kiran light bomber / trainer, air combat 7, strike 2, naval strike 2, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Pakistan) single engine
L29 air combat 8, strike 3, also a useful trainer aircraft (Czechslovakia) single engine
Saab Lansen air combat 9, strike 3, range medium, (cost 2, maintenance .25) (SU) single engine Mig 27 air combat 10, strike 4, range medium, all
weather fighter bomber, Poland
IAR 93 air combat 8, strike 5, range long, all weather bomber, Rumania
Cost 3, maintenance 1
Sokko J22 Orao air combat 9, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Romania
Cost 4, maintenance 1 (single engine)
Nanchang Q-5 air combat 12, strike 5, range medium, China / India
Q6 (based on Super Enterard) air combat 9, strike 4, maritime strike 4, range long, all weather fighter bomber, cost 3, maintenance 1, 1968
JH7 air combat 10 (defense only), strike 5, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather bomber, cost 3,maintenance 1, 1965
Mitsubishi F1 air combat 8, strike 1, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather maritime attack aircraft Japan
Pucara light bomber (turbo prop) air combat 6, strike 3, naval strike 1, STOL capable, cost 1, maintenance .25 (FNS) tanker buster

Medium bombers
FB111 Aardvark medium bomber air combat 10, strike rating 8, range medium, all weather capable, (US) cost 5, maintenance 2
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 6, range medium (UK/Dixie) cost 3, maintenance 1
Tu14 medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 6, range medium (Sweden), can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4) cost 5, maintenance 1
Su 24 air combat 10 (defense only) strike 6 (maritime and ground), range medium, all weather bomber, Russia Cost 4, maintenance 1 (single engine)
Backburn Buccaneer air combat 9, strike 4, range medium, nuclear capable, all weather, can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4) cost 4, maintenance 1

available 1970
A10 Thunderbolt air combat 8, strike 8, range short, ground support aircraft, tank buster, (Texas)
Su25 air combat 7, strike 7, range short, ground support aircraft, tank buster
(Russia)


editing in progress

more new planes... special note: some costs have changed

tank buster aircraft have special combat modifiers if used against enemy armored or mechanized units, and increase the combat value of the ground unit they are supporting.

also note how effective tech level 8 helicopter gunships are and that the H5 is now considered a maritime patrol aircraft

But certain SSK's have the capability to carry ASM's.. also what about SSGN's?

Besides that, the Russian Battlecruisers (name escapes me) can certainly hold much more than 20 missiles. Perhaps the ability to create a Missile Battleship with VLS tubes for an increased price or the same with Cruisers.

the ASMs you are talking about are Harpoons etc, which aren't a cruise missile like the Tomahawk.

SSGNs will be available as a naval unit but are designed to launch mass missile attacks against naval forces, not land targets at this tech level. That changes at Tech level 8.5. The historical Soviets built them with the hope that they could saturate a carrier battle group at the start of a war and sink a carrier, not to bombard land targets.

In RL I think SSK's now can fire cruise missiles out of their torpedo tubes.

Also, when can subs have SAM capability?

And is top Gun school 10 points for each pilot, or is it 10 points to set up the school?

Finally, what about Iron Hand Defense Suppression?

If Australia had pilots fly over Britain and against the Pakistanis, is that enough to have fought in the Twilight War?

In RL I think SSK's now can fire cruise missiles out of their torpedo tubes.

Also, when can subs have SAM capability?

And is top Gun school 10 points for each pilot, or is it 10 points to set up the school?

Finally, what about Iron Hand Defense Suppression?

at tech leve 8 SSKs can do that, prior to that, only SSNs (they are bigger ships). SAM capability for SSK/SSN is at tech level 8.5.

Top Gun school just makes it Possible for you to have elite pilots, it doesn't make all of your pilots elite unless you spend the points to do so.

I have no idea what Iron Hand Defense Suppresion is

I have no idea what Iron Hand Defense Suppresion is
hhmmm, I read it in a fictional second korean war book somewere, maybe the author just created it.

Where's my new plane? :(

Where's my new plane? :(

forgot about it, will add it in

changes made in naval and ground forces posts

Ground Forces: elite units now possible, as is National Training Centers if tech level 8

Naval forces: tech level 8 warships (even more expensive then before)

You got the name wrong, its the Tonatiuh :p

Is Top Gun schol Tech level 8?

Is Top Gun schol Tech level 8?

yes, and only available at that tech level

You got the name wrong, its the Tonatiuh :p

ooc
I don't want to have to spell that routinely, so I want to go with Aztec, which has an easier plural as well

But Aztec was going to be the name of the company, and I was going to name them all after Aztec Gods...I could give it a number instead if you want?

If Australia had pilots fly over Britain and against the Pakistanis, is that enough to have fought in the Twilight War?

bump for response

So I gotta wait til Tech Lvl 8 to make that. It's alright. So Top Gun school on my list. Alright. BY the way 1970 is a normal year and the depression is over so we include everything as normal. Alright.

bump for response

yes, the RAAF can have elite pilots, as can the North Americans (who saw even more combat then the RAAF)

Ju987 Stuka II air combat 8, strike 8, range short, ground support aircraft (Germany)

Based on this aircraft

http://www.luft46.com/profiles/jwart-1.jpg
http://www.luft46.com/junkers/jugap.html

Essentially similar in all respects to the A10, and given the designation Ju 987 Stuka II

incidently, the Germans and Americans are going to get stealth aircraft research advantages because both used flying wing type aircraft in the 1940s and therefore have combat tested some of the critical design elements.

Everyone else has to start from square one on stealth aircraft.

Rules will be provided once we actually get to 1974.

was the A-10 Warthog's nickname taken from the german plane?

was the A-10 Warthog's nickname taken from the german plane?

probably not, my guess would be similar function created similar nickname. As this aircraft was merely a design study historically, and never actually flew, my thought is that the makers of that website took some poetic license.

You know, there's a American manga series called "Luftwaffe 1946," by Antarctic Press. I dropped it though, the art and the stats rock, but the story tends to meander a lot. Just saying, the website you brought up reminded me of it...

You know, there's a American manga series called "Luftwaffe 1946," by Antarctic Press. I dropped it though, the art and the stats rock, but the story tends to meander a lot. Just saying, the website you brought up reminded me of it...

it is clearly affiliated with it. My own research indicates that they aren't making much up as far as aircraft designs go though.

Yeah it kinda tapered off in publishing too. THe storyline is not very linear and it gets confusing after awhile. The Sci Fi one is easier to follow.

it is clearly affiliated with it. My own research indicates that they aren't making much up as far as aircraft designs go though.

Hmm...seems to be independent of the comic. Otherwise, the guy who made the comic, Ted Nomura, would've been featured in some way. But I'll be darned if both guys don't cite the Reichdreams aircraft folks; Nomura ran features from them in every issue.

Woot! The Stuka II pwns!

Comes out the same time as the A10 right?

Luft46 is a great site, I use it quite a lot.

GB, I think you might have accidently deleted helicopters from the front page, I couldn't find them.

GB, I think you might have accidently deleted helicopters from the front page, I couldn't find them.

I will add them back in this evening

tech 8 helicopters
cost 3, maintenance is .5, range increases from short to medium, and attack helicopters have a strike of 6 instead of 2 and can shoot down other peoples helicopters

Several North American nations (Texas, Colorado, Rocky Mountain Free States, Dixie) indicate to friendly nations that in the right circumstances, portions of their Army are available for rent.

To get a mercenary unit of North Americans, you have to pay the cost of the unit (including the cost of ammunition and training) for one year, plus an extra .5 points per unit which goes to the government of said nation.

The Flying Tigers continue to exist as well, and will be able to provide air support.

North American ground and air mercenary units will not fight one another.

They also won't default, desert or turn on their employers.

The UN is the employer of preference when possible.

Air Forces



Carrier based
1 unit provides sufficient aircraft for up to 20 carriers (provides better radar protection for carriers that have them, and reduces the ability of the enemy to find those same carriers by using the radar emissions of the carrier against it). These aircraft are factored in automatically into carrier wings (see carrier wing rules in naval section) but can be bought as landbased units.

E2 Tracker air defense 1, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance 3, replaces E1 Tracer, (US)
E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft cost 3 points, maintenance 1 point, (US) out of production


Can other nations convert certain aircraft to fill this role?

Can other nations convert certain aircraft to fill this role?

any decent 2 engined transport aircraft will do as long as its the right size for carrier ops, or any decent 4 engined jet passenger airliner

Tupolev and Airbus make good airliners

LianShi Airworks begins development on a new fighter for the Indochinese Airforce.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Li-8TaiLointerceptor.png

Name: Li-8 Tai Lo
Type: Interceptor
Manufacturer: LianShi Air Works
Length: 21.2m
Width: 5.16m
Wingspan: 14.7m
Height: 5.23m
Crew: 1

Propulsion: 2x Yanpei KP-130 Turbofans (157.7 kN each) 315 kN
Empty Weight: 16,220 kg
Light Combat weight: 24,240 kg
Normal Combat Weight: 25,458 kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 29,200 kg
Fuel Weight: 6,200 kg
Light Payload: 376 kg
Normal Payload: 2,128 kg
Maximum Payload: 4,880 kg
Internal Bays: 2
Internal Bay Slots: 2 each
Internal Bay Slot Capacity: 98 kg
Gun: 20x100mm chaingun
Rate of Fire: Up to 3000 rounds per minute
Gun Ammunition: 450 rounds.

Combat Range: 1,350 km
Ferry Range: 3,410 km
Operational Ceiling/Altitude: 19.4 km
Maximum Altitude: 20 km
Cruising Speed: Mach 1.7
Supercruising Speed : Mach 1.9
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.4
Airstrip take-off: STOL
Airstrip landing: STOL
Stall Speed : 80 km/h
Rate of Climb: 270 m/s

The Philippines would recommend they work exclussivly for the UN. THat would be the best idea and where they would do the most help.

GB could you make my plane the Aztec 100 please. So that way I can have Aztec as the manufacturer. And could you post its stats as an AWACS please.

LianShi Airworks begins development on a new fighter for the Indochinese Airforce.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Li-8TaiLointerceptor.png

Name: Li-8 Tai Lo
Type: Interceptor
Manufacturer: LianShi Air Works
Length: 21.2m
Width: 5.16m
Wingspan: 14.7m
Height: 5.23m
Crew: 1

Propulsion: 2x Yanpei KP-130 Turbofans (157.7 kN each) 315 kN
Empty Weight: 16,220 kg
Light Combat weight: 24,240 kg
Normal Combat Weight: 25,458 kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 29,200 kg
Fuel Weight: 6,200 kg
Light Payload: 376 kg
Normal Payload: 2,128 kg
Maximum Payload: 4,880 kg
Internal Bays: 2
Internal Bay Slots: 2 each
Internal Bay Slot Capacity: 98 kg
Gun: 20x100mm chaingun
Rate of Fire: Up to 3000 rounds per minute
Gun Ammunition: 450 rounds.

Combat Range: 1,350 km
Ferry Range: 3,410 km
Operational Ceiling/Altitude: 19.4 km
Maximum Altitude: 20 km
Cruising Speed: Mach 1.7
Supercruising Speed : Mach 1.9
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.4
Airstrip take-off: STOL
Airstrip landing: STOL
Stall Speed : 80 km/h
Rate of Climb: 270 m/s

what year does research start?

what year does research start?
'70-'71

Lianshi Airworks also begin work on a Close Air support aircraft.

Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Li-10XaoLitankbuster.png

General characteristics

Name: Li-10 Xao Li
Crew: 1
Length:16.3 m
Wingspan: 17.4 m
Height: 5.4 m
Wing area: 53.88 m²
Empty weight: 10,467 kg
Loaded weight: 12,961 kg
Max takeoff weight: 18,958 kg
Powerplant: 2× Ti 'Kai TK102-LD-100 turbofans, 33.4 kN each

Performance

Maximum speed: 837 km/h
Thrust/weight: 0.33

Armament

1x 30 mm Type-15 Six barrel gatling gun
Up to 8,350 kg of ordnance

The UIR announces the destruction of three former Pakistani A-bombs and the ongoing search for several missing weapons. Any help is appreciated

GBizzle, when does the Leopard 2 come out?

(grins like a schoolboy)

Parthini']GBizzle, when does the Leopard 2 come out?

(grins like a schoolboy)

tech level 8

Meanwhile, the Irish government asks the UIR innocently since it was kind enough to destroy the Pakistani bombs, then just how many bombs does the UIR have?

Lianshi Airworks also begin work on a Close Air support aircraft.

Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Li-10XaoLitankbuster.png

General characteristics

Name: Li-10 Xao Li
Crew: 1
Length:16.3 m
Wingspan: 17.4 m
Height: 5.4 m
Wing area: 53.88 m²
Empty weight: 10,467 kg
Loaded weight: 12,961 kg
Max takeoff weight: 18,958 kg
Powerplant: 2× Ti 'Kai TK102-LD-100 turbofans, 33.4 kN each

Performance

Maximum speed: 837 km/h
Thrust/weight: 0.33

Armament

1x 30 mm Type-15 Six barrel gatling gun
Up to 8,350 kg of ordnance


remind me when I get back about your aircraft so I can assign ratings... if research starts in 1970 or 1971, remember aircraft take about 10-12 years from design to operational status at tech level 8 (to better to ensure cost overruns apparently and other more valid technical reasons)

just checking to make sure that Australia has permission to purchase 1 C141 Starlifter in 1969 (crosses fingers)

on another note, does building a tracker aircraft unit like a E3 count as an entire air wing with requisite pilot for the purposes of maintaning military size limits?

remind me when I get back about your aircraft so I can assign ratings... if research starts in 1970 or 1971, remember aircraft take about 10-12 years from design to operational status at tech level 8 (to better to ensure cost overruns apparently and other more valid technical reasons)

So these will be ready in say '80-'82?

Australia ended up buying the two carriers with planes as offered in Chatzy btw GB. Just for your records and all...

tech level 8

Meanwhile, the Irish government asks the UIR innocently since it was kind enough to destroy the Pakistani bombs, then just how many bombs does the UIR have?

The UIR responds it has 1,000 Hydrogen Bombs under heavy guard, however it has no delivery systems (unless the FB-111 or Tu-26 can carry them, it isn't listed that they can). Unmentioned are the tactical nuclear weapons.

The UIR responds a non-shoot first policy

Air Forces

Available 1968 or when Tech level 8 is reached
F15A Eagle air combat 22, interceptor 15, strike 1, range long, cost 6, maintenance 2, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F14A Tomcat air combat 16, interceptor 20, strike 1, range medium, cost 6, maintenance 2, all weather fighter / interceptor, heavy carrier capable (which increases costs of heavy air groups by 2, and maintenance by 1)
Mig 21S air combat 16, strike 2, range short, STOL capable, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Poland)
Viggen air combat 18, strike 2, range medium, cost 4, maintenance 1, all weather fighter (Sweden)


editing in progress

I am seeing way too many economic builds showing they buy the Viggen in the mid 1960s

you can't have it before 1968

(1970, Stupid wacky time warp)

At the Kyoto Conference on the future of the alliances in East Asia, Indochina announces that the SCT will be no more from this point onwards, it will be broken down into it's constiuent parts.


Replacing the SCT's economic section will be similarly named Seoul Economic Goup (SEG), It will also encompass the Asian Economic Fund (AEF). The presidency of the SCG would rotate around the member nations, changing each year.
(The SEG would keep the original SCT flag)

The ASA will be made fully independant and civillian, military research and space items such as spy satellites will have to be funded and researched seperately by the member nations, though Launch facilities for them will be availible. The ASA would keep ties with the Seoul Economic Group but have to ties with Asian Treaty Organization.


Replacing the military wing will be the Asian Treaty Organization, which will change from it's original purpose as a militarist arm of a power bloc to a mutual defence organization.
The Asian Treaty Organization will retain the Joint Asian Inteligence Council (JAIC) which shares intelligence among member nations (assuming they want to share that is).
The Asian Treaty Organization would be neutral to any conflict outside of Asia and of those within Asia would only require it's members to provide asistance if a country can be proved to have been attacked first by the agressor.
In a dispute between two member nations the Asian Treaty Organization would try to mediate between the two to reach a desicion upon which both agree.
If unrest, war or natural disaster causes hardship within a country, they can ask the Asian Treaty Organization to supply Neutral Peacekeepers. Member nations would be obliged to provide aid or military units to further peace keeping efforts.
The Asian Treaty Organization would be a mutual defence organization only and as such members would be free to make alliances outside of Asia at any point.
The Asian Treaty organization would have a council made up of three elected members, which ultimately decides on what course of action should be taken if there is a tied vote betwen the Asian Treaty Organization memebers.
The council is changed every three years.
There would be no research exchange or research sharing obligations what so ever.
It is hoped these measures will bring peace and stability to an Asia where tensions have been rapidly rising.

All Asian and Oceanian countries would be invited to the organizations listed above including Russia in an obervers role if it whishes.
(India will also be invited, mainly because Indochina sympathises with India IC, no matter what is said OOC, and for this to work most of Asia needs to join)

Japan declines participation in the military portions indicated

Japan declines participation in the military portions indicated

As expected...

For civil defence, how much is it per million population?

For civil defence, how much is it per million population?

1 point per 10 million. It also helps out with natural disasters like hurricanes, earthquakes etc

both of which plague Mexico routinely

A question concerning casulaties:

Your post in the Twighlight War indicated roughly half of each units would return to combat duties. Therefore, if you had 2 Infantry Brigades destroyed, could you form 1 Infantry Brigade after 6 weeks when the soldiers are expected to return, or is just assumed that they're feed into other units as reinforcements?

Also, if you had milita units, in wartime, could you eliminate these units to form infantry brigades or would further training be required?

A question concerning casulaties:

Your post in the Twighlight War indicated roughly half of each units would return to combat duties. Therefore, if you had 2 Infantry Brigades destroyed, could you form 1 Infantry Brigade after 6 weeks when the soldiers are expected to return, or is just assumed that they're feed into other units as reinforcements?

Also, if you had milita units, in wartime, could you eliminate these units to form infantry brigades or would further training be required?

the other part of a unit being destroyed is equipment losses. Generally, when a unit is destroyed, it has lost 50% of its personnel, but 90% of its vehicles and heavy equipment. Now I have been simplifying things so that a unit destroyed is 100% casaulties so we don't have to keep track of the casaulties suffered by units that aren't destroyed.

Remember also that the upper limit that a nation can mobilize is 10% of its population during wartime. So the casaulties are subtracted from that, which gradually whittles away at the total number of units you can have (adjusted for population increases and decreases).

In short, I have considered allowing for regrouping of destroyed units to recreate new ones, and have on occasion done it for you guys, but as a general rule you can't because of the other things I am factoring in.

Hopefully that makes sense, I am not totally awake yet

Indochina military report
Circa 1971


UIA (Army):

-Central Strategic Army Command: [General Vo Nguyen Giap]
1x HQ Unit (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Highly Trained]

-1st Army Corps: [General Tran Van Tra]
1st Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
2nd Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Highly Trained]

-2nd Army Corps: [General Sunan Mongkut]
3rd Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Highly Trained]
4th Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Highly Trained]

-3rd Army Mechanised Corps: [General Lon Nol]
1st Mechanized infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Highly Trained]
1st Armoured Division (Xam Nua) [Highly Trained]

-4th Army Mechanised Corps Corps: [General Jou Phen Tai]
2nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Sa Keo Range) [Highly Trained]
1st Mechanized Artillery Division (Sa Keo Range) [Highly Trained]


-National Aerial Defence Command [General Nyugen Phreng Dao]
1st Mechanized SAM group (Saigon) [Highly Trained]
2nd Mechanized SAM group (Bangkok) [Highly Trained]
3rd Mechanized SAM group (Hanoi) [Highly Trained]


-Army Pathfinders Division [General Van Tin Dungl]
1st Special Mechanised Airborne Brigade (Hanoi) [Hand picked]
1x Ht-80 transport unit (Hanoi)
1x Expert pilot (Hanoi)


UIMC (Marines):

-Central Strategic Marine Command: [General Shui Huan Bai]
1x HQ Unit (Nha Trang) [Highly Trained]

-1st Marine Division: [General Sopheap Phirun]
1st Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
2nd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
1st Marine Mechanized Brigade (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy) [Highly Trained]

-2nd Marine Division: [General Quy Vien Tu]
3rd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Highly Trained]
4th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Highly Trained]
2nd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Highly Trained]

-3rd Marine Division: [General Vanna Klahan]
5th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Surat Thani) [Highly Trained]
3rd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Highly Trained]
4th Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Highly Trained]

- 1st Marine Air Support Group: [General Phan Anh]
1st Marine Air Support Wing [Nanchang Q-5 Light bomber Unit] (Laem Chabang MAFB)
2nd Marine Air Support Wing [Nanchang Q-5 Light bomber Unit] (Laem Chabang MAFB)
1x Expert pilot (Laem Chabang MAFB)
1x Expert pilot (Laem Chabang MAFB)


UIAF (Airforce):

-Central Strategic Airforce Command: [General Klahan Dai Sunan]
1x HQ Unit (Vinh) [Highly Trained]

- 1st Air Superiority Group: [General Chu Van Tan]
1st Air Superiority Wing [Saab Viggen fighter unit] (Vinh AFB)
2nd Air Superiority Wing [Saab Viggen fighter unit] (Da Nang AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Vinh AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Da Nang AFB)

- 2nd Air Superiority Group: [General Hoko Bao An]
3rd Air Superiority Wing [Saab Viggen fighter unit] (Nakhon Sawan AFB)
4th Air Superiority Wing [Saab Viggen fighter unit] (Songkhla AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Nakhon Sawan AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Songkhla AFB)


-1st Tactical Bombing Group: [General Nyugen An Phong]
1st Tactical Bomber Wing [Nanchang Q-5 Light bomber Unit] (Saigon AFB)
2nd Tactical Bomber Wing [Nanchang Q-5 Light bomber Unit] (Da Nang AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Saigon AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Da Nang AFB)


-1st Aerial Support Group: [General Heng An]
1st Aerial Support Wing [CA Kirin Lamsong Tanker unit] (Saigon AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Saigon AFB)


-Airforce Transport Divison:
1st Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Saigon AFB)
2nd Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Vinh AFB)
3rd Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Songkhla AFB)
4th Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Nakhon Sawan AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Saigon AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Vinh AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Songkhla AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Nakhon Sawan AFB)


UIN (Navy):

-South China Sea Fleet: [Admiral Nyugen Ju Que]
'Nyugen Ai Quoc' CVA (Cam Ranh)
Heavy Carrier Air wing (Nyugen Ai Quoc CVA, Cam Ranh Naval Air Station)
'Jiao' CVL (Cam Ranh)
ASW Carrier Air Wing (Jiao CVL, Cam Ranh Naval Air Station)

'Zhao Tou' Zhao Tou Class Light missile Cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Bankok' Zhao Tou Class Light missile Cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Lan Xang'Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile Cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Phu Bia' Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile Cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Xuo La' Xuo La Class Anti-Aircraft Cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Gan Ji' Xuo La Class Anti-Aircraft Cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Nan Yong' Xuo La Class Anti-Aircraft Cruiser (Cam Ranh)

3x Destroyer units (2 vessals)(Cam Ranh)
4x ASW Frigate Units (2 Vessals) (Cam Ranh)

'Shou' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh)
'Vinh' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh)

-Andaman Sea Fleet: [Admiral Zhou Wulen]
'Indochina' CVA (Phuket)
Heavy Carrier Air wing (Indochina CV, Sattahip Naval Air Station)
'Rong' CVL (Phuket)
ASW Carrier Air Wing (Jiao CVL, Sattahip Naval Air Station)

'Lin Yen' Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile Cruiser (Phuket)
'Yao Shi' Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile Cruiser (Phuket)
'Lac Long Quan' Zhao Tou Class Light missile Cruiser (Phuket)
'Au Co' Zhao Tou Class Light missile Cruiser (Phuket)
'Jo Fai' Xuo La Class Anti-Aircraft Cruiser (Phuket)
'Klima To' Xuo La Class Anti-Aircraft Cruiser (Phuket)
'Yo Bia' Xuo La Class Anti-Aircraft Cruiser (Phuket)

3x Destroyer units (2 vessals)(Phuket)
4x ASW Frigate Units (2 Vessals) (Phuket)

'Hue' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Phuket)
'Phongsali' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Phuket)
'Vo Ling' Veng Shi Class Nuclear Guided Missile Submarine (Phuket)

-Northern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Pich Veasna]
1x Patrol / Escort group (Haiphong)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Haiphong)

-Southern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Leon Yann]
1x Patrol / Escort group (Bangkok)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Bangkok)

-Naval Transport Department:
1st Amphibious Assault Group (Cam Ranh)
2nd Amphibious Assault Group (Phuket)
3rd Transport Group (Haiphong)
4th Transport Group (Haiphong)


Merchant Navy:

14,000,000 tons of shipping


IIA (Indochinese Intelligence Agency):

8,000 Analysts
Ocean Trawlers
Improved Spy Satellites


Nuclear weapons stockpile:
800 Hydrogen Bombs

the other part of a unit being destroyed is equipment losses. Generally, when a unit is destroyed, it has lost 50% of its personnel, but 90% of its vehicles and heavy equipment. Now I have been simplifying things so that a unit destroyed is 100% casaulties so we don't have to keep track of the casaulties suffered by units that aren't destroyed.

Remember also that the upper limit that a nation can mobilize is 10% of its population during wartime. So the casaulties are subtracted from that, which gradually whittles away at the total number of units you can have (adjusted for population increases and decreases).

In short, I have considered allowing for regrouping of destroyed units to recreate new ones, and have on occasion done it for you guys, but as a general rule you can't because of the other things I am factoring in.

Hopefully that makes sense, I am not totally awake yet

That makes sense, I thought that equipment might be a problem for men coming out of convalescent leave

UIR armed forces circa 1970

UIR Army

UIR 1st Army: Guarding UIR-Pakistani border (on DMZ, not in it)
1 Armored Divisions
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions
2 Mechanzied Flak Groups
1 Mechanized Artillery Group
1 HQ unit
1 Infantry Division
2 Attack Helicopters w/ 2 Regular Pilots
(total manpower, not including helicopters: 140,000)

UIR 2nd Army: Guarding UIR-Pakistani border (on DMZ, not in it)
1 Armored Divisions
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions
2 Mechanzied Flak Groups
1 Mechanized Artillery Group
1 HQ unit
1 Infantry Division
2 Attack Helicopters w/ 2 Regular Pilots
(total manpower, not including helicopters: 140,000)

UIR 3rd Army: Behind 1st and 2nd Army
1 Armored Divisions
2 Mechanized Divisions
2 Mechanzied Flak Groups
2 Mechanized Artillery Groups
1 Infantry Division
2 Attack Helicopters w/ 2 Regular Pilots
(total manpower, not including helicopters: 120,000)

UIR 4th Army: In Pakistan and Afghanistan, with orders to eliminate rebel forces
10 Mountain Brigades
Total Manpower: 50,000

UIR 5th Army: Watching Western Border
2 Infantry Divisions
Total Manpower: 40,000

UIR 6th Army: Guarding Nuclear Stockpile & Chemical Weapons
2 Special Forces Parachute Brigades
2 Parachute Brigades
Total manpower: 20,000

UIR 7th Army: Iran and Afghanistan Garrison Command
3 Garrison Units (Teheran, Kabul, Ishafan)
12 Milita units (2 in Teheran, Qom, Ishafan, Kandahar, Kabul, Mashad)

UIR 8th Army: Pakistani and Central Asian Garrison Command
1 Garrison Unit (Karachi)
13 Militia units (2 in Tashkent, Hyderabad, Peshawar, Lahore, Quetta, Dushanbe, 1 in Gwadar)
1 Infantry Division (Karachi)

UIR Air Force

East: 18 Saab Viggens, 9 in Underground Airbases. 2 ETU-95's, 2 Nova Tankers, 8 EQ-5's, 17 Expert Pilots, 13 Regular Pilots

Central Reserve: 2 EQ-5's, 6 F-1's, 2 Mirage V's, 5 Mirage G's, 1 Tu-22M, 1 Helo ASW, 4 Attack Helicopters, 2 Transport Helicopters

UIR Navy
3 Frigate Unit (6 Frigates)
2 Corvette Units

Pakistan:
From Local Airbase:
-1 Highly Trained Garison

From recently idle China Relief Forces <Withdrawn from Tibet following Tibetan Declaration of Independance>:
-1 Airborne Brigade
-2 HQ
-1 Helicopter Cargo
-1 Do 500 Transport

Afghanistan:
From Local Airbase:
-1 Highly Trained Garison

South African Defense Force 1971:

Army
1 Armored Division (elite)
3 Mechanized Divisions (elite)
2 Parachute Brigades (elite)
2 Commando Battalion (handpicked)
1 HQ unit
1 Mechanized Flak Brigade (average)
3 Attack Helicopter Units
3 Transport Helicopter Units
2 Cargo Helicopter Units
8 Elite Pilots

Reserve Army
1 Garrison Unit-Pretoria
1 Garrison Unit-Johannesburg
1 Garrison Unit-Cape Town
1 Garrison Unit-Salisbury
1 Garrison Unit-Gaborone
1 Garrison Unit-Livingstone
1 Garrison Unit-Windhoek
1 Garrison Unit-Walvis Bay
1 Garrison Unit-Kimberly
1 Garrison Unit-Bloemfontein
1 Garrison Unit-Diego Suarez
1 Garrison Unit-Durban
1 Garrison Unit-Port Elizabeth
1 Garrison Unit-Prieska

Staatpolitie [State Police]
4x Militia Unit [authoritarian]

Navy
1 CVA
1 Heavy Air Wing (includes F14s)
2 Tech 8 missile cruisers
6 Tech 7 destroyers
4 Tech 7.5 frigates
1 1st generation SSNC
1 3rd generation SSN
1 coastal patrol unit
1 amphibious assault group
1 marine light infantry brigade (elite)
Laid up: 2 tech 7.5 cruisers

Air Force
6 x Cheetah (Kfir)
1 x C130
1 x B70 wing
1 C130 wing
1 C123 wing
2 KC135 wings
1 E3 AEW wing
13 x elite pilots
3 C141 wings (in desert storage)

Force Deployments:

Oman:
1 Mechanized Division-Hormuz Airbase
1 Cheetah Fighter Unit-Hormuz Airbase
1 Elite Pilot-Hormuz Airbase

India:
1 Special Forces Battalion-East Bengal

East Africa/Sudan:
1 Elite Marine Brigade
1 Elite Mechanized Infantry Division
1 C130 Wing
3 Attack Helicopter Units
1 HQ Unit
2 Transport Helicopter Units
1 Elite Parachute Brigade
2 Cargo Helicopter Units
8 Elite Pilots

[OOC: Military forces for 1971 to reflect the new stuff purchased/trained in 1970]

South African Defense Force 1970:

[
Air Force
6 x Cheetah (Kfir)
1 x C130
1 x Vulcan bomber wing
1 C130 wing
1 C123 wing
2 KC135 wings
1 E3 AEW wing
13 x elite pilots

Force Deployments:

Oman:
1 Mechanized Division-Hormuz Airbase
1 Cheetah Fighter Unit-Hormuz Airbase
1 Elite Pilot-Hormuz Airbase




Also, Air Force wants a replacement for the Vulcan, preferably a Tu22M or Tu26 as the Americans aren't selling B1s. A FNS B70 would do as well.

Air Force also wants 3 C141 or 3 An22 units to place in desert storage for use during wartime (pilots to come from airlines) for military airlift duties.

UIR armed forces circa 1970

[

UIR Air Force

East: 18 Saab Viggens, 9 in Underground Airbases. 2 ETU-95's, 2 Nova Tankers, 8 EQ-5's, 17 Expert Pilots, 13 Regular Pilots

Central Reserve: 2 EQ-5's, 6 F-1's, 2 Mirage V's, 5 Mirage G's, 1 Tu-22M, 1 Helo ASW, 4 Attack Helicopters, 2 Transport Helicopters

UIR Navy
3 Frigate Unit (6 Frigates)
2 Corvette Units


underground bases are considered fortifications, and require 1 point a year for maintenance for each airbase. An airbase can hold 3 air wings or 9 squadrons.

Britain decides to update its intercontinental bomber assets and seeks a replacement for the Avro Vulcan. Wishing to retain full intercontinental capability Britain enquires of Texas as to the possibility of exporting the B1, as this is likely to be a tricky negotiation Texas is offered cash incentives and the purcgase rights to the Harrier VTOL aircraft, no comparable aircraft being currently available to Texas.

OOC - GB, that plane that me and Columbia developed will be available for Texas ...

Important Note

There are physical limits that constrain how large a modern army can reach without affecting the functionality and efficiency of the civilian economy.

In order to calculate maximum military size you must first work out how many "units" there are in your army. The units are based on how you purchased them. For example: one cruiser will equal a unit as will a flotilla of frigates or a cruiser battlegroup, infantry units are different and are listed seperately below, there is one exception one aircraft (and pilot) will only count as one unit combined, though additional pilots and aircraft on their own will count against the total.

In peacetime, the limit is one corps, 4 divisions, 12 brigades, 18 air units, or 12 naval units per 5 million people in your nation if your nation is tech level 7.5 or higher. (6 naval units count if tech level 7 or lower).

In addition, you may have two reserve units for each regular unit without penalty during peacetime. In wartime or during times of national emergency you may call them up. This however can have economic penalties depending on how many troops are called up. If you exceed peacetime limits expect some economic ramifications, your industrial growth will decrease as a substantial portion of your male (and female) youth who provide the main industrial workforce will be spending too much time in the military and less in your factories. Exact results will be determined by a discussion between the military and economic moderators

General Rules regarding warfare
Scale
Formerly, the World in Flames map found on the web was used. However, that may not always be available, so to simplify matters, assume that no more then 7 brigades or 2 divisions and 1 other unit can operate in the same area defined as 50 kilometers by 50 kilometers. That way any national or regional map can be used if it has reasonable information like terrain, major roads and cities on it. No more then 1 air unit can be located in an area (a hex for consistency of jargon) in peacetime, and no more then 3 air units in wartime. Naval units do not have a stacking limit but doctrine requires that no more then 3 naval units (plus their escorts) operate in the same hex while at sea. Any number of naval units can operate out of a major port or base, although too many based together is risky.

-

major change effective 1971

Britain decides to update its intercontinental bomber assets and seeks a replacement for the Avro Vulcan. Wishing to retain full intercontinental capability Britain enquires of Texas as to the possibility of exporting the B1, as this is likely to be a tricky negotiation Texas is offered cash incentives and the purcgase rights to the Harrier VTOL aircraft, no comparable aircraft being currently available to Texas.

matter is taken up by the North American Economic Union council

ooc
requires approval by Columbia and New England, as both are PC countries or Columbia and Quebec. NPCs will generally follow lead of PCs in this kind of discussion

Regarding the new rules on deployment do they apply in peacetime as well?

I'll grab a map of the UK and divide it up into zones to see if I can fit all my troops in, if not i'll post them abroad to foreign bases.

Britain also requests some small role in NORAD as they are interested in maintaining the aerial security of Newfoundland. Air units and fundign will of course be made available and a commitment to protecting all NORAD countries made.

Naval units

Carriers
Covers the cost of 1 carrier and 1 replenishment ship
CVAN (Heavy Carrier, nuclear powered) Cost 30, maintenance 2 points, construction time 4 years.
CVA (heavy carrier) cost 15, maintenance 2 points, construction time 3 years
CVN (fleet carrier, nuclear powered) cost 20, maintenance 1 point, construction time 3 years
CV (fleet carrier) cost 10, maintenance 1 point, construction time 2 years
CVLN (light carrier, nuclear powered), cost 10, construction time 2 years
CVL (light carrier), cost 5, construction time 1 year

Each carrier type has its own type of air wing. Carrier air wings are balanced units capable of great flexibility.

Air wings
Heavy Air Wings - consists of 4 fighter or fighter bomber squadrons, 2 light bomber squadrons, 1 Composite squadron with 4 AEW aircraft, 12 ASW aircraft (usually S2/E2 or similar, maintenance and price as AEW squadron), 1 ASW helicopter squadron. Found on a heavy or nuclear heavy carrier

Air Wing – consists of 3 fighter or fighter bomber squadrons, 1 light bomber squadron, 1 composite squadron, 1 ASW helicopter squadron. Found on a fleet or nuclear fleet carrier.

Light Air Wing – consists of up to 4 VTOL or Helicopter squadrons. Cannot carry any other aircraft type.

Carrier pilots must be at least expert and indicated as such. Non carrier pilots cannot fly carrier planes unless cross trained (which raises them 1 level from average to expert or expert to elite, or elite to elite carrier)

.

huge change beginning 1971

Does this apply to half finished Carriers?

Air Forces
Air Forces
Air Forces
Important Note: Maintenance does not upgrade aircraft, it simply keeps them flying. You have to buy new aircraft to get new aircraft, unless it is a simple improvement of the same type (B model replaced by C model for example).

STOL: Aircraft marked with STOL and all helicopters do not need an airbase to land and operate from. They can even use a highway in an emergency or a reasonably prepared grass or snow field. STOL aircraft can also operate from carriers.

Also important note: Carrier air wings are purchased as Naval Units, see above.

Pilots:
You must have one pilot unit per aircraft unit in order to operate the aircraft. You can have more or less if you chose to do so. Active and Reserve pilots can be expert or below average or average.

Below Average pilots: cost: 2 points, maintenance free, training time 6 months
Average pilots: cost: 2 points, maintenance .25, training time 1 year
Expert pilots: cost: 4 points, maintenance .5 points, training time 2 years or 1 year combat
Elite pilots: cost 6 points, take 2 years to train, and are only available to nations that fought in the Twilight War
Top Gun School: costs 10 points, allows you to retain the possibility of having elite pilots or get them if you didn’t have pilots that fought in the Twilight War

Aircraft Notes

Unit Size
At tech level 8, aircraft are more complex then ever. In addition, losses are now factored as squadrons lost instead of wings, as wars are more intense and of shorter duration. Instead of wings, aircraft now are counted as squadrons.

Strategic and heavy bombers, maritime patrol aircraft, transport aircraft, airborne early warning aircraft, tanker aircraft and transport aircraft are units of 12 planes.
Light bombers and helicopter units are 18 aircraft
Fighters and fighter bombers are units of 24 aircraft

Existing air units automatically break down in 3 helicopter, light, fighter or fighter bomber squadrons or 2 transport, heavy bomber, strategic bomber, tanker, or electronic warfare aircraft.

Range
Short range aircraft are capable of reaching the front line and a few miles beyond it (about 500 kilometers or less)
Medium range aircraft can conduct longer ranged operations up to 1000 kilometers
Long range aircraft can fly up to 2000 kilometers
Intercontinental range aircraft can fly up to 10,000 kilometers
Tanker units can be paired up with an air unit to increase its range by one (short to medium for example).

Special note
Aircraft listed as out of production can only be obtained second hand

Fighter and fighter bombers
Available 1965 cost 2 maintenance .25 unless otherwise indicated
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 13, strike rating 1, range medium (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 10, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather, (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 14, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather (France/China)
Hal Marut air combat 11, strike 1, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India) cost 1, maintenance .25
J8 air combat 14, strike 1, range medium, air superiority fighter, cost 1, maintenance .25 China / Korea
Kfir I / Cheetah air combat 14, strike 2, range medium, cost 2,maintenance .5
FNS/ South Africa carrier capable
F4G Phantom Air combat 15, strike 5, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, US (Texas, Columbia, New England, Huron) carrier capable
Avro Arrow II air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor Canada (Huron)
Su 22 air combat 13, strike 1, range medium, Russia
Mig 23 Air combat 15, strike 1, range short, Poland
Tornado I air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor UK/Germany/Italy (air defense version of Tornado)
China Aviation / Mirage G air combat 15, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor China
Mirage F1 air combat 15, strike 1, range medium, all weather fighter, carrier capable, France
F5B/T38 fighter bomber / trainer air combat 13, strike 1, range short, cost 1, maintenance .25 (US)
F12 Blackbird air combat 16, strike 0, range long, cost 6, maintenance 3, all weather interceptor version 1958 (FNS) can intercept any aircraft up to 100,000 feet
Dornier Alphajet bomber / trainer air combat 11,strike 1, range short, Germany Cost 1, maintenance .25
Hawker Hawk bomber / trainer air combat 11, strike 1, range medium, UK
Cost 1, maintenance .25
Harrier MK1 air combat 9, strike 1, range short, VTOL aircraft, (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 2, maintenance .5 (first entered service 1969 so available 1964) UK
Yak 38 air combat 8, strike 1, range short, VTOL aircraft (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 2, maintenance .5 (first entered service 1971 so available 1964) Russia

Available 1968 or when Tech level 8 is reached
F15A Eagle air combat 22, interceptor 15, strike 1, range long, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F14A Tomcat air combat 16, interceptor 20, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter / interceptor, heavy carrier capable
Mig 21S air combat 16, strike 1, range short, STOL capable, cost 1, maintenance .25 (Poland)
Viggen air combat 18, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Sweden)

Available 1971 or when Tech level 8 is reached
Mirage 2000 air combat 18, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, all weather fighter bomber, carrier capable (France)
F16A Falcon air combat 18, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, fighter bomber (Texas)
JF12 Cobra (based on YF17 which leads to F18) air combat 20, strike 3, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, fighter bomber, carrier capable (FNS)
J10 (based on Lavi which is based on F16) air combat 18, strike 1, range medium, cost 1, maintenance .25, fighter (Korea)
Su 27 air combat 20, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter, carrier capable, (Russia)
Mig 29 air combat 20, strike 1, range short, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Poland)
Available 1978
Li-8 Tai Lo air combat 18, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Indochina)


Light Bombers Cost 1, maintenance .25
A6 Intruder (Dixie) air combat 7, strike rating 3, range medium, all weather carrier capable (special cost 2, maintenance .5)
Fiat G.91 (Italy) air combat 6, strike rating 1, range short (Italy) Single engine
SEPCAT Jaguar air combat 10, strike 2, range medium, all weather bomber UK/France (single engine)
HAL Kiran light bomber / trainer, air combat 7, strike 1, naval strike 2, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Pakistan) single engine
L29 air combat 8, strike 1, also a useful trainer aircraft (Czechslovakia) single engine
Saab Lansen air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, (SU) single engine
Mig 27 air combat 10, strike 2, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, Poland
IAR 93 air combat 8, strike 2, range long, all weather bomber, Rumania
Sokko J22 Orao air combat 9, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Romania
Nanchang Q-5 air combat 12, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, China / India
Q6 (based on Super Enterard) air combat 3, strike 4, maritime strike 4, range long, all weather fighter bomber, 1968
JH7 air combat 10 (defense only), strike 2, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather bomber, China 1965
Mitsubishi F1 air combat 8, strike 1, maritime strike 2, range medium, all weather maritime attack aircraft Japan
Pucara light bomber (turbo prop) air combat 6, strike 1, naval strike 1, STOL capable, carrier capable, cost .5, maintenance .25 (FNS) tanker buster

Medium bombers cost 2, maintenance 1
FB111 Aardvark medium bomber air combat 10, strike rating 3, range medium, all weather capable, (US)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 2, range medium (UK/Dixie)
Tu14 medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 3, range medium (Sweden), can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)
Su 24 air combat 10 (defense only) strike 3 (maritime and ground), range medium, all weather bomber, Russia
Backburn Buccaneer air combat 9, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, nuclear capable, all weather, can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)

available 1970
A10 Thunderbolt air combat 8, strike 3, range short, ground support aircraft, tank buster, (Texas)
Su25 air combat 7, strike 2, range short, ground support aircraft, carrier capable, tank buster (Russia)
Available 1978
Li-10 Xao Li air combat 8, strike 2, range short, tank buster (Indochina)
Ju 987 Stuka II air combat 8, strike 3, range short, tank buster (Germany)

heavy jet bombers cost 3, maintenance 1 unless otherwise noted
Tu 16 (Badger) heavy bomber air combat 4, strike rating 3, range long (Sweden)(nuclear capable)(can carry anti ship missiles, naval strike 3)
Tu 22 heavy bomber, air combat 10, strike rating 2, range medium, nuclear all weather capable, can carry carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 2) (SU) (out of production)
Tu26 Backfire air combat 12, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Scandic Union 1967
Tu22M Backfire air combat 12, maritime strike 3, strike 1, all weather maritime strike aircraft, Scandic Union 1966

Jet strategic bombers cost 6, maintenance 2 unless otherwise noted
(all are nuclear capable, all weather, and air combat rating is defense only)
TU95 Bear air combat 7, strike rating 3, range long, Scandic Union), cruise missile capable
Avro Vulcan air combat 8, strike 3, range intercontental, (UK)
China Aviation Kirin air combat 8, strike 3, range long, (China)
China Aviation Kirin B air combat 10, strike 3, maritime strike 2, range long, (China) 1961
Nova Bomber air defense 8, strike 6, maritime strike 2, range long, cost 5, China
Condor air combat 16, strike 2, maritime strike 1, range intercontinental cost 8, maintenance 4, all weather Mach 3 bomber (the B70) FNS
B1 Lancer air combat 18 (defense only), strike 7, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5 1968 (Texas)
B1B Lancer air combat 16 (defense only), maritime strike 4, range intercontinental, all weather maritime strike aircraft, cost 10, maintenance 5, 1968 (Texas)
Ht-64 'Shan Shi' air combat 12 (defense only), strike 3, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5, China / USAE 1969
H-7 Lei (Thunder Dragon) air combat 15 (defense only), strike 3, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 12, maintenance 6, China (based on this aircraft http://www.unrealaircraft.com/classics/su_100.php
(the H-7 and B1 are also ideal for intelligence gathering missions

patrol planes and bombers
Aztec air combat 4, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, range long cost 4, maintenance 1 (Mexico) cost 2, maintenance .25
P3 Orion air combat 3, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (US) cost 2, maintenance .25
S2 Tracker ASW carrier based aircraft air combat 3, strike 1, range long ASW/All weather capable cost 1, maintenance .10 (Brazil)
Breguet Atlantique air combat 3, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (France), cost 2, maintenance .25
Hawker Siddeley Nimrod air combat 4, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (UK) cost 2, maintenance .25
Beriev Be-6 air combat rating 2, naval strike rating 1, strike rating 1, maritime patrol aircraft, flying boat (Russia) cost 1, maintenance .10
IL28 (Hong 5P) medium bomber air combat 6, naval strike 1, strike rating 2, range medium (Korea) cost 2 maintenance .25

Transport aircraft
Special Notes: All Transport units can carry or air drop 1 light infantry brigades, or or carry the personnel for 1 prepositioned brigade. Exceptions are listed.

C123 Provider theater transport air combat rating 1, range medium cost .5, maintenance cost .10, STOL capable (US)
C130 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, (US) STOL cost 1, maintenance .25

An 12 Cub air combat 2, strike 0, range long, (Russia) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
HT-80 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, (USAE) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
TU 107 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (SU)
C141 Starlifter air combat 5, strike 0, range intercontinental, cost 2, maintenance .25, US
IL76 air combat 4, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance .5, Scandic, STOL capable, cost 2, maintenance .25,
Do 500 air combat 3, strike 0, range intercontinental, German, STOL capable, cost 2, maintenance .25,
Mitsubishi C1 air combat 1, strike 0, range medium,STOL (can operate in primitive conditions), cost .5,maintenance .10 Japan
C5 transport, air combat 1, strike 0, range long, can carry any non mechanized brigade or missile unit or helicopter unit cost 2, maintenance .5, US
Nova transport unit (same as C5) except range intercontinental

Tanker aircraft
Tanker aircraft can refuel 1 strategic or heavy bomber or transport unit, or 2 light bomber, fighter or fighter bomber units

DO501 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, tanker version of Do 500, cost 1, maintenance .25 (Germany)
An 15 air combat 1, strike 0, range long, tanker version of An 12 (Russia) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
KC97 tanker air combat 0, range long , out of production, maintenance .25 (out of production)
KC 135 air combat 2, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (US)
Lincoln Tanker air combat 1, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (UK)
Handley Page Victor air combat 4, strike 0, range long, (UK) cost 1, maintenance .25
China Aviation Kirin also available in a tanker version (Lamsong tanker)(China)
air combat 5, strike 0, range long, can refuel 1 strategic bomber or 2 other air units
Nova Tanker (same as bomber but no strike rating and air combat is 3) can refuel 1 Nova bomber unit or 2 strategic or heavy bomber units or 3 regular air units. China cost 1, maintenance .25

Electronic Warfare aircraft
Consists of 3 basic types: Airborne Early Warning aircraft, Defense suppression aircraft, and Signet aircraft

Airborne Early Warning Aircraft
Tech level 7.5 twin engine AEW aircraft provide a +2 to air combat/air defenses, while 4 engine aircraft provide a +3. Existing 4 engine early warning aircraft are upgraded for free during maintenance once reaching tech level 7.5. Classify Airborne Early Warning aircraft as AEW aircraft for game purposes. These aircraft are generally spread around, and 1 unit will support 15 air units plus 10 flak units.

Carrier based
1 unit provides sufficient aircraft for up to 20 carriers (provides better radar protection for carriers that have them, and reduces the ability of the enemy to find those same carriers by using the radar emissions of the carrier against it). These aircraft are factored in automatically into carrier wings (see carrier wing rules in naval section) but can be bought as landbased units.

E2 Tracker air defense 1, strike 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance 1, replaces E1 Tracer, (US)
E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft cost 3 points, maintenance 1 point, (US) out of production

Land based
See above

EA12 airborne early warning aircraft (Russia) (converted transport) (same as AN12)
ETU95 (Scandic Union)(converted bomber)(same as TU95) cost 2 maintenance 1
E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft cost 1 points, maintenance 1 point, (US, FNS)
E3 Sentry air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, improved AWACs aircraft, special bonuses cost 5, maintenance 3 US/UK/Australia/FNS
Nova AEW air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, AWACs aircraft, cost 3, maintenance 3

Defense Suppression aircraft
EA6 Prowler air combat 14 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather carrier EW/Jamming aircraft. Cost 2, maintenance 2, reduces the effectiveness of enemy anti aircraft defenses and interceptors
EFB111 Raven air combat 15 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather EW/Jamming aircraft, cost 2, maintenance 2, capabilities as per EA6
Tornado Mk 3 air combat 16 (defense only), strike 0,range medium, all weather UK/Germany (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) cost 2, maintenance 2 1965
Nanchang EQ-5 air combat 12 (defense only) strike 0, range medium, (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) China 1965 cost 2, maintenance 2
TU 128 air combat 10 (defense only), strike 2, range long, all weather defense suppression aircraft 1964 cost 2, maintenance 2 Russia

Wild Weasel
Any 3rd Generation light bomber or fighter with a strike rating of 2 or better can be converted into defense suppression aircraft. Air combat becomes defense only (and remains unchanged), Strike value is 0, but acts as a EW/Jamming aircraft. Maintenance costs are doubled. \

Signet aircraft
Provide an intelligence bonus to nations that own them.

RC135 Rivet Joint air defense 3, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance 2, provides intelligence (signals) gathering information (improves codebreaking chances, which becomes automatic for nations with a lower tech level then the owner). (US)
The Nova, TU95, An12 and Kirin can also be modified into Signet aircraft, use RC135 costs

Helicopters
All helicopters are VTOL
Tech level 7 transport helicopters cost 1, maintenance .25, can carry 1 light infantry battalion (so 3 are required to carry 1 infantry brigade) range is short
Tech Level 7.5
All cost 2, maintenance .5, range is short
Transport helicopters can carry 1 infantry battalion (so 3 required to carry 1 light infantry brigade)
Cargo helicopters can carry 1 artillery battalion (so 3 required for 1 infantry or artillery brigade)
Attack helicopters have a strike rating of 3 and are tank busters
ASW helicopters have a naval strike rating of 3 and can attack submarines
Tech level 8 helicopters range is medium
All cost 3, maintenance .5
Same as tech level 8 helicopters except
Attack helicopters have a strike rating of 6 and are tank busters, also have a air combat rating of 3 and can shoot down aircraft and other helicopters
ASW helicopters have naval strike rating of 6 and an air combat rating of 3 and can engage aircraft and other helicopters
Cargo helicopters can be refueled with air to air refueling (extending range to long)

even more huge a change in effect 1971

OUT of production air units still found in service or are readily available
maintenace costs are .25 unless otherwise indicated

AD1 Skyraider air combat 2, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 2, range short (STOL capable) (US)
F100 Super Saber air combat 8, strike rating 1, range medium, (US)
Gloster Javalin aircombat 8, strike rating 1, range long (UK) all weather
Mig 17 air combat 7, strike rating 1, range short, all weather (Poland)
Mig 19 air combat 8, strike rating 1, range short (Poland)
Dassault Mystere IV air combat 7, strike rating 1, range medium (China/France)
TA200 air combat 9, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather (Germany)

3rd Generation Jet fighters and Fighter bombers maintenance 1
F101B Voodoo all weather interceptor air combat 10, strike 1, range long (US) out of production
F104 Starfighter interceptor, air combat 11, strike 1, range short (US) out of production
(neither the F101 or F104 are in production any longer)
M107C fighter, air combat 11, strike 1, range medium, (Colombia)
BAC Lightning air combat 12, strike rating 1, range short (UK)
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 13, strike rating 1, range medium (France/China)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 10, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather, (France/China)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 14, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather (France/China)
F8U Crusader, air combat 13, strike 1, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Su-19 Fighter air combat 13, strike rating 1, range medium (Russia)
Yak 25 air combat 11, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (Russia)
F4C/E/F Phantom, air combat 14, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Saab J35 Draken air combat 13, strike 1, range medium, all weather interceptor (strike version air combat 11, strike 4) (SU)
Avro Arrow air combat 13, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (US/Canada)
Hal Marut air combat 11, strike 1, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India)
TA202F all weather interceptor air combat 13, strike 1, range short, all weather cost 3, maintenance .5 (Germany)
MIG25 air combat 14, strike 0, range medium, all weather interceptor / intelligence gathering aircraft (Poland / Ukraine)
Avro Arrow II air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor US/Canada

IL28 (Hong 5) medium bomber air combat 5, naval strike 1, strike rating 2, range medium (Korea)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 2, range medium (US/UK)
F105 light bomber, air combat 9, strike rating 2, range medium (US) can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 3)(single engine)
A4 Skyhawk carrier light bomber , air combat 7, strike rating 1, range medium (US)(single engine)
TA183D air combat 6, strike rating 1, range medium (Germany) single engine
Hawker Hunter air combat 8, strike rating 1, range medium (UK) single engine
Su 5 air combat 6, strike rating 1, range short (Russia) single engine
Mig 15bis air combat 6, strike rating 1, range short (Poland) single engine
A5 Vigilante air combat 8, strike 1 (nuclear capable, all weather), range medium, all weather (US) (single engine) out of production

Avro Shackleton air combat 2, naval strike 2, strike rating 1, range long, ASW/all weather capable, (UK) maintenance .5 out of production
P2V Neptune air combat rating 2, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather capable, maritime patrol aircraft (US) out of production, maintenance .5
C133 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can reorganize up to 3 aircraft and / or 1 IRBM/ICBM missile units maintenance 1
C82 Flying Boxcar air combat 0, can airlift 1 light division or paradrop 1 brigade, range medium, maintenance .25, can refuel by air, out of production, STOL capable (US)
C124 Globemaster air combat 0, can airlift 2 light divisions. cost 4 Range intercontinental, out of production maintenance cost .5 (US)

B52C Stratofortress, air combat 8, strike rating 4, range intercontinental
(US)(nuclear capable)
B52D Stratofortress air combat 9, strike rating 4, range intercontinental (US)
B52G Stratofortress air combat 12, strike rating 5, range intercontinental, , US, cruise missile capable
B58 Hustler air combat 13, strike rating 3, range long, US


Helicopter Units
tech level 7 Helicopter units cost 2, maintenance .25
(can lift 1 light infantry, alpine, marine light infantry or airborne brigade)

adjusted to reflect rule changes

Hey GB don't forget my plane :)

Does this apply to half finished Carriers?

yes

air wings are permanently changed, but the ships remain the same

remember a carrier is essentially several units.. the ship itself, plus the aircraft it carries

Hey GB don't forget my plane :)

which was it again? (need a link)

also need a link to the FNS plane

I sent an e-mail to you about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P1154

Also, Air Force wants a replacement for the Vulcan, preferably a Tu22M or Tu26 as the Americans aren't selling B1s. A FNS B70 would do as well.

Air Force also wants 3 C141 or 3 An22 units to place in desert storage for use during wartime (pilots to come from airlines) for military airlift duties.

Always willing to keep the military up-to-date, the South African government makes plans to allocate the necessary funds to purchase said aircraft in 1971, as the 1970 budget has already been allocated to various projects and purchases.

I sent an e-mail to you about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P1154

it was cancelled because it had issues, so it won't show up until about 1975

Britain decides to update its intercontinental bomber assets and seeks a replacement for the Avro Vulcan. Wishing to retain full intercontinental capability Britain enquires of Texas as to the possibility of exporting the B1, as this is likely to be a tricky negotiation Texas is offered cash incentives and the purcgase rights to the Harrier VTOL aircraft, no comparable aircraft being currently available to Texas.

Columbia denies any sales wanting to stop any spread of N American technology that would ruin any quality edge in combat. Privately though, Britain is reminded about the many American merc units, and their availability, especially to an old ally, should the need arise.


OOC: GB, whats the bonus of being a tank buster?

I have three questions about carriers.

1. Are the costs of the air wings included with the actual construction of the carriers?

2, Are pilots also included in the carrier cost itself?

3. Meaning I don't have to build air wings and pilots seperately (cost-wise) from carriers?

I have three questions about carriers.

1. Are the costs of the air wings included with the actual construction of the carriers?

2, Are pilots also included in the carrier cost itself?

3. Meaning I don't have to build air wings and pilots seperately (cost-wise) from carriers?

You have to build an air wing sperately. I think the pilot is included, check with GB though

I have three questions about carriers.

1. Are the costs of the air wings included with the actual construction of the carriers?

2, Are pilots also included in the carrier cost itself?

3. Meaning I don't have to build air wings and pilots seperately (cost-wise) from carriers?

1. costs of aircraft squadrons and their pilots are seperate from the costs of carriers

2. no
3. yes

so for example..
CVAN (heavy nuclear powered carrier) costs 30 points to build, 2 points a year to maintain

it can carry 4 fighter bomber squadrons, 2 light bomber squadrons, 1 AEW/ASW squadron and 1 ASW helicopter squadrons

So lets say 2 F14 squadrons (4 points total to buy, 1 point a year maintenance)
2 F4G squadrons (4 points to buy, .5 points a year maintenance)
2 A6 squadrons (4 points to buy, .5 points a year maintenance)
1 E2/S2 squadron (1 point to buy, 1 point a year maintenance)
1 tech 8 ASW helicopter squadron (3 points to buy, .5 a year maintenance)
8 elite pilots (16 points to buy, 4 points a year maintenance)

so that works out to cost 54 points to create the unit and it takes 2 years, and then will cost 9.5 points a year to keep in service 1 CVAN, 1 replenishment ship, plus the Air Wing

then you need at least a couple of destroyers, a couple of frigates, 1 cruiser at least, and at least 1 nuclear attack submarine

Columbia denies any sales wanting to stop any spread of N American technology that would ruin any quality edge in combat. Privately though, Britain is reminded about the many American merc units, and their availability, especially to an old ally, should the need arise.


OOC: GB, whats the bonus of being a tank buster?

ooc
tank busters have their strike value doubled against mechanized units

IC
the remaining NORAD nations agree, although Dixie and Huron are uncomfortable with the decision.

1. costs of aircraft squadrons and their pilots are seperate from the costs of carriers

2. no
3. yes

so for example..
CVAN (heavy nuclear powered carrier) costs 30 points to build, 2 points a year to maintain

it can carry 4 fighter bomber squadrons, 2 light bomber squadrons, 1 AEW/ASW squadron and 1 ASW helicopter squadrons

So lets say 2 F14 squadrons (4 points total to buy, 1 point a year maintenance)
2 F4G squadrons (4 points to buy, .5 points a year maintenance)
2 A6 squadrons (4 points to buy, .5 points a year maintenance)
1 E2/S2 squadron (1 point to buy, 1 point a year maintenance)
1 tech 8 ASW helicopter squadron (3 points to buy, .5 a year maintenance)
8 elite pilots (48 points to buy, 6 points a year maintenance)

so that works out to cost 94 points to create the unit and it takes 2 years, and then will cost 11.5 points a year to keep in service 1 CVAN, 1 replenishment ship, plus the Air Wing

then you need at least a couple of destroyers, a couple of frigates, 1 cruiser at least, and at least 1 nuclear attack submarine

Now I'm somewhat more confused.

I remember having to pay 6 points to build a Heavy Air Wing to outfit a Heavy Carrier (and pilot was included I think).

But if you say I have to build seperate squadrons, I'm lost because I have no idea what naval aircraft China has, or what tech 8 naval aircraft China needs to build for the tech 8 carriers (to match).

--------------------------------

EDIT:

I liked the old "X points for carrier air wing" better as it is much simpler to keep track of instead of breaking down the wing into squadrons of 4 or 5 different types of aircraft.

I don't care about the cost for "carrier air wing"- it can be 6 points or 30 points, as long as it remains simplistic (one "unit" instead of 4 or 5 different "units" within a "wing unit"). We don't need to make stuff MORE complicated than it already is.

GB, do our pilot units break down, or will they cost less as there are fewer pilots per squadron?

Air Forces
Only aircraft indicated as carrier capable or VTOL can operate from carriers. F14s require a heavy carrier, while ASW carriers can only operate VTOL aircraft.


Pilots:
You must have one pilot unit per aircraft unit in order to operate the aircraft. You can have more or less if you chose to do so. Active and Reserve pilots can be expert or below average or average.

Below Average pilots: cost: .25 points, maintenance free, training time 6 months
Average pilots: cost: .5 points, maintenance free, training time 1 year
Expert pilots: cost: 1.5 points, maintenance .25 points, training time 2 years or 1 year combat
Elite pilots: cost 2 points, take 2 years to train, and are only available to nations that fought in the Twilight War, maintenance .5 points
Top Gun School: costs 10 points, allows you to retain the possibility of having elite pilots or get them if you didn’t have pilots that fought in the Twilight War



Light Bombers Cost 1, maintenance .25
Etendard (France) air combat 5, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A4 Skyhawk (Columbia) air combat 4, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A7 Corsair (Texas) air combat 7, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
)

more new stuff...

by the way, every existing pilot unit becomes 3 pilot units under the new system beginning 1971

when using your airlines to supplement your air force, each airline also provides 3 pilot units

however, they can only fly transport, tanker or AEW aircraft

1. costs of aircraft squadrons and their pilots are seperate from the costs of carriers

2. no
3. yes

so for example..
CVAN (heavy nuclear powered carrier) costs 30 points to build, 2 points a year to maintain

it can carry 4 fighter bomber squadrons, 2 light bomber squadrons, 1 AEW/ASW squadron and 1 ASW helicopter squadrons

So lets say 2 F14 squadrons (4 points total to buy, 1 point a year maintenance)
2 F4G squadrons (4 points to buy, .5 points a year maintenance)
2 A6 squadrons (4 points to buy, .5 points a year maintenance)
1 E2/S2 squadron (1 point to buy, 1 point a year maintenance)
1 tech 8 ASW helicopter squadron (3 points to buy, .5 a year maintenance)
8 elite pilots (16 points to buy, 4 points a year maintenance)

so that works out to cost 54 points to create the unit and it takes 2 years, and then will cost 9.5 points a year to keep in service 1 CVAN, 1 replenishment ship, plus the Air Wing

then you need at least a couple of destroyers, a couple of frigates, 1 cruiser at least, and at least 1 nuclear attack submarine


fixed to reflect rules additions

so do you have to be tech level 8 to do this, or can you do it at 7.5? It would seem odd to have 2 different forces.

And e-mail for you GB from my new e-mail

Now I'm somewhat more confused.



I don't care about the cost for "carrier air wing"- it can be 6 points or 30 points, as long as it remains simplistic (one "unit" instead of 4 or 5 different "units" within a "wing unit"). We don't need to make stuff MORE complicated than it already is.

because I need more air units available to take off as losses instead of saying

your F15 wing suffers 30% losses

tech level 8 conventional war is even deadlier then tech level 7 and 7.5 conventional war, and those pretty squadrons die quick when facing an equal enemy

this way you will still have an air force even when suffering severe losses

GB, do my troops have a bonus or something from having fought in the FAS civil war, and some of them from the Twighlight War (some of the Pakistani units)?

more new stuff...

by the way, every existing pilot unit becomes 3 pilot units under the new system beginning 1971


Does this mean the individual pilot units still cost the same to build and maintain?

Because if they do, that sucks big time.

Does this mean the individual pilot units still cost the same to build and maintain?

Because if they do, that sucks big time.

no, he changed it too

which was it again? (need a link)

also need a link to the FNS plane


JF-30 http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11456288&postcount=231

B73C http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11451259&postcount=229

Damn, my fighter sucks.
It twice as expensive as a J10 yet it has exactly the same capabilities.

Though I think ill be canceling Indochina's order for Saab Viggens because they are exactly the same as the Li-8.

The Li-10s not bad though.

In fact GB i think you need to revise some of the stats for these aircraft, The Viggen, J10 and, Li-8 are all exactly the same. Except the J10 is half the cost of the other two.

It looks like you've rounded all the numbers down when you've divided them.

This has made a lot of aircraft pointless.



And if Artitsa's JF-30 plane is any better than my Li-8 I will hunt you down and kill you (:p )

Damn, my fighter sucks.
It twice as expensive as a J10 yet it has exactly the same capabilities.

Though I think ill be canceling Indochina's order for Saab Viggens because they are exactly the same as the Li-8.

The Li-10s not bad though.

In fact GB i think you need to revise some of the stats for these aircraft, The Viggen, J10 and, Li-8 are all exactly the same. Except the J10 is half the cost of the other two.

It looks like you've rounded all the numbers down when you've divided them.

This has made a lot of aircraft pointless.



And if Artitsa's JF-30 plane is any better than my Li-8 I will hunt you down and kill you (:p )

Yours may look better, but mine is designed better. WTF are you thinking? One Nozzle for two engines?

Yours may look better, but mine is designed better. WTF are you thinking? One Nozzle for two engines?

The pic is actually reused from a mainstream NS project (It originally had forward swept wings and a single engine)

And just why is one nozzle for two engines bad? The nozzle is only external after all, the internals are seperate. You should notice that the nozzle is much larger than normal so the thrust is still being channeled throught the same area.

Anyway as this project failed I will do a better one, more than just a meaningless stat block next time. and it better get damn good stats.

Important Note

Special Forces
A commando type battalion or special forces type group can be simulated by having an airborne or alpine light infantry battalion, with the requirement that training spending be at least one step higher then your regular forces.

These kind of units are capable of special operations (like raids, evacuations, advisory work etc) and any special missions can be submitted to me for approval or not, and then a success chance is used. They often are destroyed carrying out the mission but if its important enough, its well worth the price. Just ask Germany and Rumania about the importance of the commando raids on the Scandic missile silos during the Twilight War

Up to a limit of 1 battalion for every 3 divisions in your army. The kind of soldiers you need for these units are rare, even in wartime.

[ -

small change

I will look at aircraft some more this evening or tomorrow

Ground Units

Notes on Size
Current Guidelines:
Battalions are 1,000 men (including support needed outside of the battalion)
Brigades are 5,000 men (including support needed outside of the brigade)
Divisions and Groups are 20,000 men (as above)
Corps and Units are 50,000 men (as above)


Special forces battalions cost 1 point, maintenance .25 (lots of special equipment) can be airdropped by 1 aircraft up to the limit of range and are also automatically able to act as marines, mountain troops, jungle troops or artic troops or desert troops. Only 1 special forces battalion is allowed for every 12 brigades or brigade sized units of regular troops. A special forces battalion attached to a division sized unit automatically improves its quality one rating (maximum is raising it to highly trained). A special forces battalion can also form the cadre of a light infantry corps by adding 2 points, a 50,000 men, and 6 months to train them. At which point a highly trained light infantry corps is born. This makes it ideal for using to help allies raise their forces in a hurry or to allow allies to convert guerilla militia corps into guerilla light infantry corps (which then forms 6 light infantry brigades).

Armoured brigade and mechanized brigades cost 2 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 2

Hovercraft brigades cost 10 points, maintenance 3 points, combat strength 2, can operate as a combination naval and ground unit. Essentially hovercraft with missile launchers, machine guns, mortars and 20-30 mm cannon. Only available at tech level 8.

.


Some changes

Hovercraft?! GB is my new hero

China needs Tech Level 8 fighter-bomber, light-bomber, AEW / ASW aircraft that are carrier capable. I do have land based tech 8 aircraft but I don't have any carrier capable aircraft for tech 8 (needed for tech 8 carriers). I don't even have Tech 7.5 carrier capable aircraft, I think.

Is there any way I can have Mirage V's or Viggens made carrier capable? Or the JH-7 bombers or what?

Or do I have to build Pykrete Carriers or 1 mile long carrier decks to use my land based aircraft at sea?

China needs Tech Level 8 fighter-bomber, light-bomber, AEW / ASW aircraft that are carrier capable. I do have land based tech 8 aircraft but I don't have any carrier capable aircraft for tech 8 (needed for tech 8 carriers). I don't even have Tech 7.5 carrier capable aircraft, I think.

Is there any way I can have Mirage V's or Viggens made carrier capable? Or the JH-7 bombers or what?

Or do I have to build Pykrete Carriers or 1 mile long carrier decks to use my land based aircraft at sea?

The Q-6 should be carrier capable. And the Q-5 and it's varients certainly should easily modified.

Especially if your using Kunetsov type carriers witha a large ski jump instead of catapults. (Less stress on the airframe, so therefore less modification needed)

Im currently working on a better fighter than the Li-8 which should be carrier capable

Ato, TG

EDIT- Carrier airplanes carry a hook on their underbelly so the lines on a carrier can snag them before they fall in the water. Therefore, Carrier airplanes can land on Carriers or if they need to, Land airbases. Land based aicraft however do not carry such a hook and cannot be stopped if they should attempt to land on a carrier, dumping them into the sea and ruining your planes

Ato, TG

EDIT- Carrier airplanes carry a hook on their underbelly so the lines on a carrier can snag them before they fall in the water. Therefore, Carrier airplanes can land on Carriers or if they need to, Land airbases. Land based aicraft however do not carry such a hook and cannot be stopped if they should attempt to land on a carrier, dumping them into the sea and ruining your planes

Some land based aircraft can be modified to have the hook (It's actually quite easy), folding wings (a bit trickier but still acomplishable in most cases) and structural reinforcement (the hard part) to make them carrier capable.

The Q-6 should be carrier capable. And the Q-5 and it's varients certainly should easily modified.

Especially if your using Kunetsov type carriers witha a large ski jump instead of catapults. (Less stress on the airframe, so therefore less modification needed)

Im currently working on a better fighter than the Li-8 which should be carrier capable

Hmm- the Kunetsov does have better defenses than the Nimitz, but the Nimitz can carry more fighters (which I need considering I'm a "quantity" nation).

Any way I can make a carrier that has all the good things of BOTH the Kunetsov (defenses) and Nimitiz (space and carrying capacity)?

New fighter after te failure that was the Li-8.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Li-12ATF.png

Name: Li-12 'Jia' Multi-role strike fighter
Manufacturer: LianShi Airworks
Crew: 1
Length: 18.75 m
Wingspan: 14 m
Height: 5.2 m
Wing area: 56.5 m²
Empty weight: 12,700 kg
Loaded weight: 20,200 kg
Max takeoff weight: 30,845 kg
2x Yanpei KP-130 Turbofans (157.7 kN each) 315 kN


Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.2 low altitude; Mach 2.5 high altitude.
Range: 4,023 km ferry with internal fuel tanks, 5,552 km ferry with external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 19,800 m
Rate of climb: 255 m/s
Wing loading: 358 kg/m²
Thrust/weight: 1.04

Armament
1x20mm Bt-KL30i revolver cannon- 1000 rounds
Space for rocket, missiles and bombs on eight wing pylons, four fuselage pylons and two centre line pylons.
Up to 6,700 kg of ordanance on fourteen external hardpoints.

After the Li-8 failed to be accepted by the CSC logistics department for use in the UI Air Force, LianShi still seeing a huge gap in the Asian market for a good carrier capable multi-role fighter. Re used some concepts from the Li-8 to particiapte in the CSC's Advanced Tactical Fighter Program.
Trying to make an improvement on the Li-8 several new features were incorporated, namely the redesign of the tail section and wings.

Able to operate from carriers the Li-12, can carry loads for both strike and air superiority missions allowing it to defend carrier groups from both air and sea attacks.

Hmm- the Kunetsov does have better defenses than the Nimitz, but the Nimitz can carry more fighters (which I need considering I'm a "quantity" nation).

Any way I can make a carrier that has all the good things of BOTH the Kunetsov (defenses) and Nimitiz (space and carrying capacity)?
Have a bigger carrier is the simple awnser.

The Kunestov is also good because of it's ski-jump that allows certain fighters to be easily modified to take off from them.

I need a carrier aircraft that can hold its own aganist the F-14 (either 1 vs 1 or 2 Chinese vs 1 F-14). I was thinking of having Mirage V's made carrier capable or even Viggen's.

That still leaves China needing light bombers, AEW / AWACS, ASW, and other carrier role capable aircraft to outfit its upcoming Carrier Navy.

I need a carrier aircraft that can hold its own aganist the F-14 (either 1 vs 1 or 2 Chinese vs 1 F-14). I was thinking of having Mirage V's made carrier capable or even Viggen's.

That still leaves China needing light bombers, AEW / AWACS, ASW, and other carrier role capable aircraft to outfit its upcoming Carrier Navy.

ATM nothing save t3h Su-27 and its carrier varient the Su-33 can go toe to toe with the F-14.

however never fear I have a likely solution about three posts ^^ that way

Just make a rip off copy some RL American stuff for your AWACS, the ASW can be handled by tech level 8 Ht-7 'Bo Wu' ASW helicopters (Maritime strike 6).

ATM nothing save t3h Su-27 and its carrier varient the Su-33 can go toe to toe with the F-14.

however never fear I have a likely solution about three posts ^^ that way

Just make a rip off copy some RL American stuff for your AWACS, the ASW can be handled by tech level 8 Ht-7 'Bo Wu' ASW helicopters (Maritime strike 6).

Okay, that leaves the role of light bombers and AEW / AWACS.

The Li-12 can be my fighter plane.
The Bo Wu can be my ASW.

However, what about non-heliocopter ASW? Like torpedo bombers or something?

-------------------------

EDIT:

I need an E-2 Hawkeye equalivent for my carrier capapble AEW / AWACS. Could I have a clone of it stat-wise but with a different name? In RL, the E-2's are still in service today in 2006 all the way since 1960's... and the Russian Yak-44 are comparable to the Hawkeye's.

Also, I was wondering what it takes to boost my Nova AEW to comparable "improved" levels as the E-3's employed by FNS, Australia, UK, and Columbia? After all, the Nova has a 250 ton interior space, far greater capacity for equipment and such than the E-3's, meaning far more powerful AEW.

I mean, you could probably pack like 5 to 10 E-3 plane worth of equipment in one Nova. Besides, the Nova has 6 engines.... the AEW rules say that 2 engined gives +2 bonus to air defense / combat for the owner, and 4 engined gives +3 bonus... so logically, a 6 engined should give a +4 bonus.

Okay, that leaves the role of light bombers and AEW / AWACS.

The Li-12 can be my fighter plane.
The Bo Wu can be my ASW.

However, what about non-heliocopter ASW? Like torpedo bombers or something?

-------------------------

EDIT:

I need an E-2 Hawkeye equalivent for my carrier capapble AEW / AWACS. Could I have a clone of it stat-wise but with a different name? In RL, the E-2's are still in service today in 2006 all the way since 1960's... and the Russian Yak-44 are comparable to the Hawkeye's.

Also, I was wondering what it takes to boost my Nova AEW to comparable "improved" levels as the E-3's employed by FNS, Australia, UK, and Columbia? After all, the Nova has a 250 ton interior space, far greater capacity for equipment and such than the E-3's, meaning far more powerful AEW.

I mean, you could probably pack like 5 to 10 E-3 plane worth of equipment in one Nova. Besides, the Nova has 6 engines.... the AEW rules say that 2 engined gives +2 bonus to air defense / combat for the owner, and 4 engined gives +3 bonus... so logically, a 6 engined should give a +4 bonus.


yes to the Hawkeye clone, as its Tech level 7.5

the E3 is a tech level 8 aircraft and has more bonuses then +3, its actually +4, Your Nova is +4 now, but at tech level 8 will be +5

the North American E2s are now +3 now because of the tech level bump by the way

you start building carriers and you are going to certainly cause a massive naval reaction from the North Americans, Australians, and FNS and probably Japanese

None of those powers see any reason for you to have them unless you plan to project power into the Pacific, where they own all the islands

Your concerns about the Mideast won't hold water in their eyes either, as they see that as the UIR/AF/German playground along with the South Africans and Omanis

remember the last three times people started arms races... war resulted

New fighter after te failure that was the Li-8.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Li-12ATF.png

Name: Li-12 'Jia' Multi-role strike fighter
Manufacturer: LianShi Airworks
Crew: 1
Length: 18.75 m
Wingspan: 14 m
Height: 5.2 m
Wing area: 56.5 m²
Empty weight: 12,700 kg
Loaded weight: 20,200 kg
Max takeoff weight: 30,845 kg
2x Yanpei KP-130 Turbofans (157.7 kN each) 315 kN


Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.2 low altitude; Mach 2.5 high altitude.
Range: 4,023 km ferry with internal fuel tanks, 5,552 km ferry with external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 19,800 m
Rate of climb: 255 m/s
Wing loading: 358 kg/m²
Thrust/weight: 1.04

Armament
1x20mm Bt-KL30i revolver cannon- 1000 rounds
Space for rocket, missiles and bombs on eight wing pylons, four fuselage pylons and two centre line pylons.
Up to 6,700 kg of ordanance on fourteen external hardpoints.

After the Li-8 failed to be accepted by the CSC logistics department for use in the UI Air Force, LianShi still seeing a huge gap in the Asian market for a good carrier capable multi-role fighter. Re used some concepts from the Li-8 to particiapte in the CSC's Advanced Tactical Fighter Program.
Trying to make an improvement on the Li-8 several new features were incorporated, namely the redesign of the tail section and wings.

Able to operate from carriers the Li-12, can carry loads for both strike and air superiority missions allowing it to defend carrier groups from both air and sea attacks.


remember the development time... its a problem. Your fighter will actually get better once you reach tech level 8 when you get better electronics and engines

go for a B version after you hit tech level 8

Some land based aircraft can be modified to have the hook (It's actually quite easy), folding wings (a bit trickier but still acomplishable in most cases) and structural reinforcement (the hard part) to make them carrier capable.

which means they are usually bigger then land based aircraft and need more engine power which reduces range or performance.. a tough trade off, and none of the Asian countries have built a carrier aircraft since 1941 when the Japanese lost their carrier fleet

experience matters in aviation, so lead time is going to be an issue for Asian nations in the carrier business

China needs Tech Level 8 fighter-bomber, light-bomber, AEW / ASW aircraft that are carrier capable. I do have land based tech 8 aircraft but I don't have any carrier capable aircraft for tech 8 (needed for tech 8 carriers). I don't even have Tech 7.5 carrier capable aircraft, I think.

Is there any way I can have Mirage V's or Viggens made carrier capable? Or the JH-7 bombers or what?

Or do I have to build Pykrete Carriers or 1 mile long carrier decks to use my land based aircraft at sea?

no on pykrete carrier

maybe a converted supertanker to carry VTOL aircraft, but bigger carriers are not available until tech level 9

Q5 can be carrier capable, which is your light bomber, and the J10 can be carrier capable. Already dealt with the AEW aircraft issue

Air Forces

Important Note: Maintenance does not upgrade aircraft, it simply keeps them flying. You have to buy new aircraft to get new aircraft, unless it is a simple improvement of the same type (B model replaced by C model for example).

STOL: Aircraft marked with STOL and all helicopters do not need an airbase to land and operate from. They can even use a highway in an emergency or a reasonably prepared grass or snow field. STOL aircraft can also operate from carriers.

Only aircraft indicated as carrier capable or VTOL aircraft can operate from carriers, and F14s require a Heavy carrier, while ASW carriers can only operate VTOL aircraft

Pilots:
You must have one pilot unit per aircraft unit in order to operate the aircraft. You can have more or less if you chose to do so. Active and Reserve pilots can be expert or below average or average.

Below Average pilots: cost: .25 points, maintenance free, training time 6 months
Average pilots: cost: .5 points, maintenance free, training time 1 year
Expert pilots: cost: 1.5 points, maintenance .25 points, training time 2 years or 1 year combat
Elite pilots: cost 2 points, take 2 years to train, and are only available to nations that fought in the Twilight War, maintenance .5 points
Top Gun School: costs 10 points, allows you to retain the possibility of having elite pilots or get them if you didn’t have pilots that fought in the Twilight War

Aircraft Notes

Unit Size
At tech level 8, aircraft are more complex then ever. In addition, losses are now factored as squadrons lost instead of wings, as wars are more intense and of shorter duration. Instead of wings, aircraft now are counted as squadrons.

Strategic and heavy bombers, maritime patrol aircraft, transport aircraft, airborne early warning aircraft, tanker aircraft and transport aircraft are units of 12 planes.
Light bombers and helicopter units are 18 aircraft
Fighters and fighter bombers are units of 24 aircraft

Existing air units automatically break down in 3 helicopter, light, fighter or fighter bomber squadrons or 2 transport, heavy bomber, strategic bomber, tanker, or electronic warfare aircraft.

Range
Short range aircraft are capable of reaching the front line and a few miles beyond it (about 500 kilometers or less)
Medium range aircraft can conduct longer ranged operations up to 1000 kilometers
Long range aircraft can fly up to 2000 kilometers
Intercontinental range aircraft can fly up to 10,000 kilometers
Tanker units can be paired up with an air unit to increase its range by one (short to medium for example).

Special note
Aircraft listed as out of production can only be obtained second hand

Fighter and fighter bombers
Available 1965 cost 2 maintenance .25 unless otherwise indicated
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 13, strike rating 1, range medium (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 10, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather, (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 14, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather (France/China)
Hal Marut air combat 11, strike 1, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India) cost 1, maintenance .25
J8 air combat 14, strike 1, range medium, air superiority fighter, cost 1, maintenance .25 China / Korea
Kfir I / Cheetah air combat 14, strike 2, range medium, cost 2,maintenance .5
FNS/ South Africa carrier capable
F4G Phantom Air combat 15, strike 5, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, US (Texas, Columbia, New England, Huron) carrier capable
Avro Arrow II air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor Canada (Huron)
Su 22 air combat 13, strike 1, range medium, Russia
Mig 23 Air combat 15, strike 1, range short, Poland
Tornado I air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor UK/Germany/Italy (air defense version of Tornado)
China Aviation / Mirage G air combat 15, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor China
Mirage F1 air combat 15, strike 1, range medium, all weather fighter, carrier capable, France
F5B/T38 fighter bomber / trainer air combat 13, strike 1, range short, cost 1, maintenance .25 (US)
F12 Blackbird air combat 16, strike 0, range long, cost 6, maintenance 3, all weather interceptor version 1958 (FNS) can intercept any aircraft up to 100,000 feet
Dornier Alphajet bomber / trainer air combat 11,strike 1, range short, Germany Cost 1, maintenance .25
Hawker Hawk bomber / trainer air combat 11, strike 1, range medium, UK
Cost 1, maintenance .25
Harrier MK1 air combat 9, strike 1, range short, VTOL aircraft, (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 2, maintenance .5 (first entered service 1969 so available 1964) UK
Yak 38 air combat 8, strike 1, range short, VTOL aircraft (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 2, maintenance .5 (first entered service 1971 so available 1964) Russia

Available 1968 or when Tech level 8 is reached
F15A Eagle air combat 10, interceptor 8, strike 1, range long, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F14A Tomcat air combat 8, interceptor 10, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter / interceptor, heavy carrier capable
Mig 21S air combat 8, strike 1, range short, STOL capable, cost 1, maintenance .25 (Poland)
Viggen air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Sweden)

Available 1971 or when Tech level 8 is reached
Mirage 2000 air combat 8, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, all weather fighter bomber, carrier capable (France)
F16A Falcon air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, fighter bomber (Texas)
JF12 Cobra (based on YF17 which leads to F18) air combat 9, strike 3, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, fighter bomber, carrier capable (FNS)
J10 (based on Lavi which is based on F16) air combat 8, strike 1, range medium, cost 1, maintenance .25, fighter (Korea)
Su 27 air combat 10, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter, carrier capable, (Russia)
Mig 29 air combat 10 strike 1, range short, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Poland)
Available 1978
Li-8 Tai Lo air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Indochina)
F15C air combat 13, strike 3, range long, cost 2, maintenance 1, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F15E air combat 12, strike 5, range medium, cost 2, maintenance 1, all weather fighter bomber (Columbia)

Light Bombers Cost 1, maintenance .25
Etendard (France) air combat 1, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A4 Skyhawk (Columbia) air combat 1, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A7 Corsair (Texas) air combat 2, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A6 Intruder (Dixie) air combat 3, strike rating 3, range medium, all weather carrier capable (special cost 2, maintenance .5)
Fiat G.91 (Italy) air combat 1, strike rating 1, range short (Italy) Single engine
SEPCAT Jaguar air combat 3, strike 2, range medium, all weather bomber UK/France (single engine)
HAL Kiran light bomber / trainer, air combat 2, strike 1, naval strike 2, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Pakistan) single engine
L29 air combat 2, strike 1, also a useful trainer aircraft (Czechslovakia) single engine
Saab Lansen air combat 2, strike 1, range medium, (SU) single engine
Mig 27 air combat 4, strike 2, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, Poland
IAR 93 air combat 2, strike 2, range long, all weather bomber, Rumania
Sokko J22 Orao air combat 3, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Romania
Nanchang Q-5 air combat 4, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, China / India
Q6 (based on Super Enterard) air combat 1, strike 4, maritime strike 4, range long, all weather fighter bomber, 1968
JH7 air combat 3 (defense only), strike 2, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather bomber, China 1965
Mitsubishi F1 air combat 2, strike 1, maritime strike 2, range medium, all weather maritime attack aircraft Japan
Pucara light bomber (turbo prop) air combat 0, strike 1, naval strike 1, STOL capable, carrier capable, cost .5, maintenance .25 (FNS) tanker buster

Medium bombers cost 2, maintenance 1
FB111 Aardvark medium bomber air combat 4 strike rating 3, range medium, all weather capable, (US)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 0, strike rating 2, range medium (UK/Dixie)
Tu14 medium bomber air combat 0, strike rating 3, range medium (Sweden), can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)
Su 24 air combat 4 (defense only) strike 3 (maritime and ground), range medium, all weather bomber, Russia
Backburn Buccaneer air combat 2, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, nuclear capable, all weather, can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)

available 1970
A10 Thunderbolt air combat 2, strike 3, range short, ground support aircraft, tank buster, (Texas)
Su25 air combat 3, strike 2, range short, ground support aircraft, carrier capable, tank buster (Russia)
Available 1978
Li-10 Xao Li air combat 2, strike 2, range short, tank buster (Indochina)
Ju 987 Stuka II air combat 2, strike 3, range short, tank buster (Germany)

heavy jet bombers cost 3, maintenance 1 unless otherwise noted
Tu 16 (Badger) heavy bomber air combat 0, strike rating 3, range long (Sweden)(nuclear capable)(can carry anti ship missiles, naval strike 3)
Tu 22 heavy bomber, air combat 3, strike rating 2, range medium, nuclear all weather capable, can carry carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 2) (SU) (out of production)
Tu26 Backfire air combat 4, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Scandic Union 1967
Tu22M Backfire air combat 4, maritime strike 3, strike 1, all weather maritime strike aircraft, Scandic Union 1966

Jet strategic bombers cost 6, maintenance 2 unless otherwise noted
(all are nuclear capable, all weather, and air combat rating is defense only)
TU95 Bear air combat 3, strike rating 3, range long, Scandic Union), cruise missile capable
Avro Vulcan air combat 2, strike 3, range intercontental, (UK)
China Aviation Kirin air combat 3, strike 3, range long, (China)
China Aviation Kirin B air combat 3, strike 3, maritime strike 2, range long, (China) 1961
Nova Bomber air defense 3, strike 6, maritime strike 2, range long, cost 5, China
Condor air combat 6, strike 2, maritime strike 1, range intercontinental cost 8, maintenance 4, all weather Mach 3 bomber (the B70) FNS
B1 Lancer air combat 6 (defense only), strike 7, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5 1968 (Texas)
B1B Lancer air combat 6 (defense only), maritime strike 4, range intercontinental, all weather maritime strike aircraft, cost 10, maintenance 5, 1968 (Texas)
Ht-64 'Shan Shi' air combat 4 (defense only), strike 3, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5, China / USAE 1969
H-7 Lei (Thunder Dragon) air combat 5 (defense only), strike 3, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 12, maintenance 6, China (based on this aircraft http://www.unrealaircraft.com/classics/su_100.php
(the H-7 and B1 are also ideal for intelligence gathering missions

patrol planes and bombers
Aztec air combat 1, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, range long cost 4, maintenance 1 (Mexico) cost 2, maintenance .25
P3 Orion air combat 0, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (US) cost 2, maintenance .25
S2 Tracker ASW carrier based aircraft air combat 0, strike 1, range long ASW/All weather capable cost 1, maintenance .10 (Brazil)
Breguet Atlantique air combat 0, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (France), cost 2, maintenance .25
Hawker Siddeley Nimrod air combat 4, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (UK) cost 2, maintenance .25
Beriev Be-6 air combat rating 0, naval strike rating 1, strike rating 1, maritime patrol aircraft, flying boat (Russia) cost 1, maintenance .10
IL28 (Hong 5P) medium bomber air combat 1, naval strike 1, strike rating 2, range medium (Korea) cost 2 maintenance .25

Transport aircraft
Special Notes: All Transport units can carry or air drop 1 light infantry brigades, or or carry the personnel for 1 prepositioned brigade. Exceptions are listed.

C123 Provider theater transport air combat rating 1, range medium cost .5, maintenance cost .10, STOL capable (US)
C130 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, (US) STOL cost 1, maintenance .25

An 12 Cub air combat 0, strike 0, range long, (Russia) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
HT-80 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, (USAE) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
TU 107 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (SU)
C141 Starlifter air combat 5, strike 0, range intercontinental, cost 2, maintenance .25, US
IL76 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance .5, Scandic, STOL capable, cost 2, maintenance .25,
Do 500 air combat 0, strike 0, range intercontinental, German, STOL capable, cost 2, maintenance .25,
Mitsubishi C1 air combat 0, strike 0, range medium,STOL (can operate in primitive conditions), cost .5,maintenance .10 Japan
C5 transport, air combat 0, strike 0, range long, can carry any non mechanized brigade or missile unit or helicopter unit cost 2, maintenance .5, US
Nova transport unit (same as C5) except range intercontinental

Tanker aircraft
Tanker aircraft can refuel 1 strategic or heavy bomber or transport unit, or 2 light bomber, fighter or fighter bomber units

DO501 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, tanker version of Do 500, cost 1, maintenance .25 (Germany)
An 15 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, tanker version of An 12 (Russia) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
KC97 tanker air combat 0, range long , out of production, maintenance .25 (out of production)
KC 135 air combat 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (US)
Lincoln Tanker air combat 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (UK)
Handley Page Victor air combat 4, strike 0, range long, (UK) cost 1, maintenance .25
China Aviation Kirin also available in a tanker version (Lamsong tanker)(China)
air combat 5, strike 0, range long, can refuel 1 strategic bomber or 2 other air units
Nova Tanker (same as bomber but no strike rating and air combat is 3) can refuel 1 Nova bomber unit or 2 strategic or heavy bomber units or 3 regular air units. China cost 1, maintenance .25

Electronic Warfare aircraft
Consists of 3 basic types: Airborne Early Warning aircraft, Defense suppression aircraft, and Signet aircraft

Airborne Early Warning Aircraft
Tech level 7.5 twin engine AEW aircraft provide a +2 to air combat/air defenses, while 4 engine aircraft provide a +3. Existing 4 engine early warning aircraft are upgraded for free during maintenance once reaching tech level 7.5. Classify Airborne Early Warning aircraft as AEW aircraft for game purposes. These aircraft are generally spread around, and 1 unit will support 15 air units plus 10 flak units. At tech level 8, AEW are +3 and +4 and +6 (for the Nova only at that tech level)

Carrier based
1 unit provides sufficient aircraft for up to 20 carriers (provides better radar protection for carriers that have them, and reduces the ability of the enemy to find those same carriers by using the radar emissions of the carrier against it). These aircraft are factored in automatically into carrier wings (see carrier wing rules in naval section) but can be bought as landbased units.

E2 Tracker air defense 0, strike 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance 1, replaces E1 Tracer, (US)
E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft cost 3 points, maintenance 1 point, (US) out of production

Land based
See above

EA12 airborne early warning aircraft (Russia) (converted transport) (same as AN12)
ETU95 (Scandic Union)(converted bomber)(same as TU95) cost 2 maintenance 1
E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft cost 1 points, maintenance 1 point, (US, FNS)
E3 Sentry air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, improved AWACs aircraft, special bonuses cost 5, maintenance 3 US/UK/Australia/FNS
Nova AEW air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, AWACs aircraft, cost 3, maintenance 3

Defense Suppression aircraft
EA6 Prowler air combat 6 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather carrier EW/Jamming aircraft. Cost 2, maintenance 2, reduces the effectiveness of enemy anti aircraft defenses and interceptors
EFB111 Raven air combat 5 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather EW/Jamming aircraft, cost 2, maintenance 2, capabilities as per EA6
Tornado Mk 3 air combat 5 (defense only), strike 0,range medium, all weather UK/Germany (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) cost 2, maintenance 2 1965
Nanchang EQ-5 air combat 4 (defense only) strike 0, range medium, (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) China 1965 cost 2, maintenance 2
TU 128 air combat 4 (defense only), strike 2, range long, all weather defense suppression aircraft 1964 cost 2, maintenance 2 Russia

Wild Weasel
Any 3rd Generation light bomber or fighter with a strike rating of 2 or better can be converted into defense suppression aircraft. Air combat becomes defense only (and remains unchanged), Strike value is 0, but acts as a EW/Jamming aircraft. Maintenance costs are doubled. \

Signet aircraft
Provide an intelligence bonus to nations that own them.

RC135 Rivet Joint air defense 0, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance 2, provides intelligence (signals) gathering information (improves codebreaking chances, which becomes automatic for nations with a lower tech level then the owner). (US)
The Nova, TU95, An12 and Kirin can also be modified into Signet aircraft, use RC135 costs

Helicopters
All helicopters are VTOL
Tech level 7 transport helicopters cost 1, maintenance .25, can carry 1 light infantry battalion (so 3 are required to carry 1 infantry brigade) range is short
Tech Level 7.5
All cost 2, maintenance .5, range is short
Transport helicopters can carry 1 infantry battalion (so 3 required to carry 1 light infantry brigade)
Cargo helicopters can carry 1 artillery battalion (so 3 required for 1 infantry or artillery brigade)
Attack helicopters have a strike rating of 3 and are tank busters
ASW helicopters have a naval strike rating of 3 and can attack submarines
Tech level 8 helicopters range is medium
All cost 3, maintenance .5
Same as tech level 8 helicopters except
Attack helicopters have a strike rating of 6 and are tank busters, also have a air combat rating of 1 and can shoot down aircraft and other helicopters
ASW helicopters have naval strike rating of 6 and an air combat rating of 1 and can engage aircraft and other helicopters
Cargo helicopters can be refueled with air to air refueling (extending range to long)


now its fixed

remember the development time... its a problem. Your fighter will actually get better once you reach tech level 8 when you get better electronics and engines

go for a B version after you hit tech level 8

In that case can development for this thing (the Li-12) begin in 1975 and end so I get it in 1987?

For now with the revised rules the Tai Lo is acceptable. The J10 can be used for carrier operations. (Though I have operated heavy fleet carriers since 1953)

I was wondering if I could upgrade the Kirin B's to Kirin C's or even Kirin D's?

Kirin B (1961): Combat 3, Strike 3, Maritime Strike 2, Range Long
Kirin C (1970): Combat 4, Strike 4, Maritime Strike 3, Range Long
Kirin D (Tech 8): Combat 5, Strike 5, Maritime Strike 4, Range Intercontiental

Plausible?

it was cancelled because it had issues, so it won't show up until about 1975
That's fine, I don't think I'd be able to afford it until then anyway :p
By the way, what does my Aztec 100 cost in maintenance now? Because it has 1 and .25 listed for it. Also, could you post the stats for an AEW varient of it please.

Also, I want to purchase the Canberra, and upgrade it to the standard of modern ones, giving it an intercontinental range, although its bombload is still low. I also want to convert one Canberra sqn to Photo-Recon.

Hey GB, a while back I suggested to build the JF-17/FC-1, but since I'm no longer Pakistan (which is good and bad, military wise), I've decided to start work on it as Quebec, since I seem to be the only North American sucessor state without its own home-made airplanes. Now, I won't call it the "FC-1" (I'm thinking of a name), but I wanna take the general design.

Here are the Specs and info. (http://www.jf-17.com/)

I was wondering if I could upgrade the Kirin B's to Kirin C's or even Kirin D's?

Kirin B (1961): Combat 3, Strike 3, Maritime Strike 2, Range Long
Kirin C (1970): Combat 4, Strike 4, Maritime Strike 3, Range Long
Kirin D (Tech 8): Combat 5, Strike 5, Maritime Strike 4, Range Intercontiental

Plausible?

B and C yes, airframe limits prevent the D

That's fine, I don't think I'd be able to afford it until then anyway :p
By the way, what does my Aztec 100 cost in maintenance now? Because it has 1 and .25 listed for it. Also, could you post the stats for an AEW varient of it please.

should be cost 2, maintenance .25 (I will fix the post)

Also, I want to purchase the Canberra, and upgrade it to the standard of modern ones, giving it an intercontinental range, although its bombload is still low. I also want to convert one Canberra sqn to Photo-Recon.

an RB57 is very doable, simply convert a squadron and it will have a air combat value of 2 (defense only), strike 0, range intercontinental, maintenance .25

Texas has a few spare B57s laying around and will give them to you

In that case can development for this thing (the Li-12) begin in 1975 and end so I get it in 1987?

For now with the revised rules the Tai Lo is acceptable. The J10 can be used for carrier operations. (Though I have operated heavy fleet carriers since 1953)

Indochinese fighters, fighter bombers and light bombers are considered carrier capable

It appears that the airplane maintenance went up again, curses

It appears that the airplane maintenance went up again, curses

all those electronic bells and whistles, onboard computers, missiles etc

all those electronic bells and whistles, onboard computers, missiles etc

yea... why can't we go back to Wilbur and Orville Wright's aircraft?!

lol. Cause they only flew as far as a jet airliner is long. I mean you measured the flight in seconds.

HMMM I gotta think of a new tank or something. And develop it.

Hey GB, a while back I suggested to build the JF-17/FC-1, but since I'm no longer Pakistan (which is good and bad, military wise), I've decided to start work on it as Quebec, since I seem to be the only North American sucessor state without its own home-made airplanes. Now, I won't call it the "FC-1" (I'm thinking of a name), but I wanna take the general design.

Here are the Specs and info. (http://www.jf-17.com/)

Please, Mr? Me love you long time if you answer my humble question!

an RB57 is very doable, simply convert a squadron and it will have a air combat value of 2 (defense only), strike 0, range intercontinental, maintenance .25

Texas has a few spare B57s laying around and will give them to you
Damn you using your American code names ^^
So what stats would my bombers have? Because according to the NASA website, it can carry 6.000lb worth of equiptment (the RB-57 that is), so what stats would a bomber version of the Canberra (but with the same modifications as the RB-57) have? Plus, would a EB-57 be possible? How many B-57 squadrons can you give me?

Also, I see that you changed the size of the Aircraft units from Wings to Squadrons, so I would like some clarification; does Quebec have 1 Squadron of F-4 Phantom II's, or does it have one wing? Because one of the old wings used to be 75 or 100 planes, so i guess that means its like 3 or 4 Squadrons.

I'm confused...

Damn you using your American code names ^^
So what stats would my bombers have? Because according to the NASA website, it can carry 6.000lb worth of equiptment (the RB-57 that is), so what stats would a bomber version of the Canberra (but with the same modifications as the RB-57) have? Plus, would a EB-57 be possible? How many B-57 squadrons can you give me?

Texans have a couple of squadrons worth

stats are as I previously gave you

Wait but the bomber version would surely have a strike rating?

Also, I see that you changed the size of the Aircraft units from Wings to Squadrons, so I would like some clarification; does Quebec have 1 Squadron of F-4 Phantom II's, or does it have one wing? Because one of the old wings used to be 75 or 100 planes, so i guess that means its like 3 or 4 Squadrons.

I'm confused...

you'd have 3 squadrons

Wait but the bomber version would surely have a strike rating?

it does, and is listed under old aircraft that are no longer in production

the Columbians have 3 wings (9 squadrons worth) in desert storage awaiting the cutting torch.. perhaps they will give them to you

Also, I see that you changed the size of the Aircraft units from Wings to Squadrons, so I would like some clarification; does Quebec have 1 Squadron of F-4 Phantom II's, or does it have one wing? Because one of the old wings used to be 75 or 100 planes, so i guess that means its like 3 or 4 Squadrons.

I'm confused...

3 squadrons and 3 pilot units to man them

notice that squadrons and pilot units are now cheaper per unit

it does, and is listed under old aircraft that are no longer in production

the Columbians have 3 wings (9 squadrons worth) in desert storage awaiting the cutting torch.. perhaps they will give them to you
No no. The RB-57 uses airframes with longer wings, and they have a much longer range. Basically, I want to upgrade all the Canberras I get so, they have intercontinental range. I know the strike rating would only be about 6, but it fits in with my plans. Also, would the stats for the EB-57 (Defense Suppression aircraft ) be the same? But I'd have to mark what it is of course.

Gb: Tg

the Columbians have 3 wings (9 squadrons worth) in desert storage awaiting the cutting torch.. perhaps they will give them to you

The Indian Ambassador in Columbia lobbies them NOT to give any military hardware to the United Islamic Republic in light of its aggressive and imperialist posturing against the Republic of India (they also point out that the UIR is a main member of the ATO and India is not).

The Indian Ambassador in Columbia lobbies them NOT to give any military hardware to the United Islamic Republic in light of its aggressive and imperialist posturing against the Republic of India (they also point out that the UIR is a main member of the ATO and India is not).

when did they sell anything to me?

Little paranoid aren't we?

The Indian Ambassador in Columbia lobbies them NOT to give any military hardware to the United Islamic Republic in light of its aggressive and imperialist posturing against the Republic of India (they also point out that the UIR is a main member of the ATO and India is not).

OOC: And what proof is there that if you had those planes, you wouldn't use them to slaughter Bengalis?

The Indian Ambassador in Columbia lobbies them NOT to give any military hardware to the United Islamic Republic in light of its aggressive and imperialist posturing against the Republic of India (they also point out that the UIR is a main member of the ATO and India is not).

The UIR points out that India is just as guilty, and has helped twice as many rebels as the UIR has

By the way, I gather that the Abram's Tank is available in 8.5 tech level right? So what's the Vietnam style tank again? I want to call it the Sherman, but I have a mind block.

Also is there any major difference in a countries usage of the M-16 or the AK-47 for their infantry? I don't think I read anywhere in E-20 that said that.

And Amestria, I posted for you in the INdia national thread.

By the way, I gather that the Abram's Tank is available in 8.5 tech level right? So what's the Vietnam style tank again? I want to call it the Sherman, but I have a mind block.

Also is there any major difference in a countries usage of the M-16 or the AK-47 for their infantry? I don't think I read anywhere in E-20 that said that.

And Amestria, I posted for you in the INdia national thread.

The M-1A1 with a 105mm gun is available now I think. The M1A2 with 120mm gun is Tech level 8.5 unless I'm wrong

I have a 7.5 tech levl though.

By the way, I gather that the Abram's Tank is available in 8.5 tech level right? So what's the Vietnam style tank again? I want to call it the Sherman, but I have a mind block.

Also is there any major difference in a countries usage of the M-16 or the AK-47 for their infantry? I don't think I read anywhere in E-20 that said that.

And Amestria, I posted for you in the INdia national thread.

small arms are too small to make much difference at the scale we are using

US tanks: tech level 6 Pershing with 90 mm gun, Sherman with 75/76 mm gun
Tech level 7 M47/48 Patton with 90 mm gun
Tech level 7.5 M48A5 with 105 mm gun, M60A1-A5 with 90, then 105 gun (plus one version with 155 gun that shot a badly designed missile)
Tech level 8 M1 Abrams with 105, thermal sighting system
Tech level 8.5 M1A1 Abrahs with 120 mm, depleted uraninium reinforced armor
M1A2 as M1A1, but improved communications capability (built in GPS etc)

THank you for the information. Of course I gather that changing how the seat cushion in a specific tank squeeks and then naming it something else would be one of those things countries do that is technically illegal, but they get away with all the time.

GB, are you even going to take a look at my JF-17?

it does, and is listed under old aircraft that are no longer in production

the Columbians have 3 wings (9 squadrons worth) in desert storage awaiting the cutting torch.. perhaps they will give them to you

GB, when is the lifespan in storage up for them? If its soon then I'll sell to someone.

GB, when is the lifespan in storage up for them? If its soon then I'll sell to someone.

decades

GB, are you even going to take a look at my JF-17?

when time permits, however, Quebec doesn't even have an aerospace industry so its not on top of the priority list at the moment

when time permits, however, Quebec doesn't even have an aerospace industry so its not on top of the priority list at the moment

Is there any way to build an aerospace industry? I mean, I'm focusing on my airforce, and it sucks up at least half of my budget, so I'm looking for a way to build my own planes.

Also, since you re-did the unit size, does that mean we can now make 54 aircraft units per 5 million instead of 18?

No no. The RB-57 uses airframes with longer wings, and they have a much longer range. Basically, I want to upgrade all the Canberras I get so, they have intercontinental range. I know the strike rating would only be about 6, but it fits in with my plans. Also, would the stats for the EB-57 (Defense Suppression aircraft ) be the same? But I'd have to mark what it is of course.
Its been missed. Basically, GB, I want to upgrade some of the Canberras to be RB-57s, some of them to be EB-57s, and some of them to be intercontinental bombers (albeit with only a small strike).

GB, when is the lifespan in storage up for them? If its soon then I'll sell to someone.
Gimme gimme gimme.

Also, the Hawk's maintenance has not changed. Its still .25 which is the same as what it was when it was a wing.

What tech level do we have to be before we can build a Harrier Type aircraft? I am guessing Lvl 8

The Ministry of Defence tasks the nationalised British Aerospace Corporation with designing and building a new intercontinental bomber to supersede the aging Avro Vulcan fleet. The new aircraft must be better defensively than the Vulcan and have a greater offensive capability, in addition a reduced crew size (from the Vulcan's 7) is seen as desireable but not necessary to reduce possible crew casualties. In a similar vein escape mechanisms are a necessity for all crew members (not just pilot and co-pilot as in Vulcan). Cost per unit and maintenence is not an issue (profits will return to the state anyway and quality is important) and the aircraft would ideally be in service by 1972 or 73.

STATS
Current:
Avro Vulcan air combat 2, strike 3, range intercontental, (UK)

Something similar to the B1 would be ideal, it'd have the advantage of 4 or 5 years extra development but a smaller aircraft industry. I don't want anything to rival the B1, the US has a huge lead in aircraft development, but somewhere near would be good.

B1 Lancer air combat 6 (defence only), strike 7, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5 1968 (Texas)


Perhaps along these lines:

air combat 2-3 (defence), strike 6+, range IC, cost 10-ish, maintenance roughly 4

I would prefer the highest strike rating possible at the expense of defence as I will be escorting the aircraft as much as possible anyway (from fighter bases around the world).

What tech level do we have to be before we can build a Harrier Type aircraft? I am guessing Lvl 8
You can already build them. :p

Lesser Ribena, TG

At tech level 7.5? I thought they were invented in the 80's? By the way 8 Tract is coming out soon.

At tech level 7.5? I thought they were invented in the 80's? By the way 8 Tract is coming out soon.

Because of the cold wars betwen communists and LTA, equipment jumped 7 years forward, so an aircraft made in 1977 can come out now, and more fighting has kept the jump going

So I can put in a scematic for a Harrier under a Filipino name then?

Possible options for Britain.
Military version of Concorde (unlikely)
Nimrod with stand off weapons (possible, something the current RAF is considering)
Avro 730 (great idea!)
http://www.airwar.ru/transfer/grishan///camms/ar/1378/pics/9_1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_730

So I can put in a scematic for a Harrier under a Filipino name then?

nations that have never had an aviation industry do not start by building advanced fighters

they start by building civilian airliners, or jet trainers, or license versions of someone elses aircraft, or modifications to aircraft that they have

so the short answer is no

Mexico for example built its first plane, the Aztec, which is essentially a glorified airliner with lots of cargo space for weapons.

Also, the Hawk's maintenance has not changed. Its still .25 which is the same as what it was when it was a wing.

some corrections made

At tech level 7.5? I thought they were invented in the 80's? By the way 8 Tract is coming out soon.

8 track is tech level 7, cassette is tech level 7.5, VHS is tech level 8, DVD is tech level 8.5

the constant warfare has accelerated tech levels, which I suppose makes up for the rather staggering death toll (approaching 1 billion dead so far this century)

Haneastic: Replied

some corrections made
Cheers :)

So I can start an airline industry by building say.... a 757 or something. Just different and with different names and such.

Alright, how about this?

The Peso
Plane Design

Powerplants

Two 166.4kN (37,400lb) RollsRoyce RB211-535C turbofans, or 178.8kN (40,200lb) RB211-535E4s, or 193.5kN (43,500lb) RB211-535E4-Bs, or 162.8kN (36,600lb) Pratt & Whitney PW2037s, or two 178.4kN (40,100lb) PW2040s, or 189.5kN (42,600lb) PW2043s.

Performance

Max cruising speed 914km/h (493kt), economical cruising speed 850km/h (460kt). Range with P&W engines and 186 passengers 5053km (2728nm), with RR engines 4758km (2569nm). Range at optional max takeoff weight with P&W engines 7277km (3929nm), with RR engines 6888km (3719nm). 757-200PF - Speeds same. Range with 22,680kg payload and P&W engines 7195km (3885nm), with RR engines 6857km (3700nm).

Weights

Operating empty with P&W engines 57,840kg (127,520lb), with RB211s 57,975kg (127,810lb). Basic max takeoff 99,790kg (220,000lb), medium range MTOW 108,860kg (240,000lb), extended range MTOW 115,665kg (255,000lb) or 115,895kg (255,550lb).

Dimensions

Wing span 38.05m (124ft 10in), length 47.32m (155ft 3in), height 13.56m (44ft 6in). Wing area 185.3m2 (1994sq ft).

Its been missed. Basically, GB, I want to upgrade some of the Canberras to be RB-57s, some of them to be EB-57s, and some of them to be intercontinental bombers (albeit with only a small strike).
:(

:(

figure in 1972... remind me next week so I can post it (send a TG at that time)

with my 500 SU engineers, how soon before I can start building decent aircraft and bombers? I think they came in 1965

figure in 1972... remind me next week so I can post it (send a TG at that time)
Hmm, I get the Canberras in 1971 though. Ah well, I'll convert the ones I can into RB-57s for the moment.