NationStates Jolt Archive

This is for military rules, units and relevent information to the E20 RP, active since 2005 (amazing isn't it).

Please do not post in this thread unless you are participating in the RP. The main thread for the RP can be found here

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=472407

Old military thread is here
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=472652

an even older one is here
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=427277

New capability
Anti satellite weapons are available at Tech level 8
either as satellites themselves (research cost 24 points)
or air launched (research cost 36 points)
This do not have nuclear warheads

Nuclear armed light missiles can be carried by Spaceplanes and MOLs now. However, they are risky

Important Note

Remember, the Military Moderators determine the combat value of your units, and you won't know how good they really are until they have fought a few battles. Such are the uncertainties of peace time hopes and war time realities

Limits of Military size

There are physical limits that constrain how large a modern army can reach without affecting the functionality and efficiency of the civilian economy.

In order to calculate maximum military size you must first work out how many "units" there are in your army. The units are based on how you purchased them. For example: one cruiser will equal a unit as will a flotilla of frigates or a cruiser battlegroup, infantry units are different and are listed seperately below, there is one exception one aircraft (and pilot) will only count as one unit combined, though additional pilots and aircraft on their own will count against the total.

In peacetime, the limit is one corps, 4 divisions, 12 brigades, 18 air units, or 12 naval units per 5 million people in your nation if your nation is tech level 7.5 or higher. (6 naval units count if tech level 7 or lower).

In addition, you may have two reserve units for each regular unit without penalty during peacetime. In wartime or during times of national emergency you may call them up. This however can have economic penalties depending on how many troops are called up. If you exceed peacetime limits expect some economic ramifications, your industrial growth will decrease as a substantial portion of your male (and female) youth who provide the main industrial workforce will be spending too much time in the military and less in your factories. Exact results will be determined by a discussion between the military and economic moderators

General Rules regarding warfare
Scale
Formerly, the World in Flames map found on the web was used. However, that may not always be available, so to simplify matters, assume that no more then 2 divisions and 1 other unit can operate in the same area defined as 50 kilometers by 50 kilometers. That way any national or regional map can be used if it has reasonable information like terrain, major roads and cities on it. No more then 1 air unit can be located in an area (a hex for consistency of jargon) in peacetime, and no more then 3 air units in wartime. Naval units do not have a stacking limit but doctrine requires that no more then 3 naval units (plus their escorts) operate in the same hex while at sea. Any number of naval units can operate out of a major port or base, although too many based together is risky.

Ground combat
Compare the combat strength of each side. Difference is a die roll modifier. A 1d6 roll is adjusted by the difference between the attacking and defending forces. Both the defender and attacker get to roll. On a 4 or better, the enemy unit is disrupted (and forced to retreat). On a 8 or better one enemy unit is destroyed and the rest disrupted, and on a 12 or better all enemy units are destroyed. Terrain such as cities, hills, jungles, wooded areas, swamps will give the defender a +1 to their roll and the attacker -2 to their roll. Terrain such as mountains, polar regions and fortifications will provide the defender a +2 to their roll and the attacker -4 to their roll. After rolling results, the surviving undisrupted units may choose to attack again, and headquarters units can also remove the disruption of surviving units as well so that they can attack again. A disrupted unit is -1 on their defense roll, and the attacker gets a +2 to their attack roll. Tech level differences and quality differences are the adjusted just like air and naval combat (adjustments to die roll).

A destroyed ground unit creates 10,000 casualties for game purposes (if a division) and 25,000 casualties for game purposes if a corps.

Air to air combat and Naval Combat
Compare air defense value of attacking and defending fighter. Difference is a plus to the die roll to shoot down or abort enemy aircraft. Elite aircrews get a +2 to air combat and strike rolls, expert get a +1, average gets no advantages and below average aircrews are at a -1.

Air combat can be supported by airborne radar aircraft, (see aircraft rules). Tech level also applies to air combat and strike rolls. Both the defender and attacker get to roll (which means they could shoot each other down). British and American, Canadian, and Australian naval units get a +2 in naval combat (successful history and most experience), German, Japanese, French, Italian, and Russian naval units get a +1 (not as successful history, but lots of experience), and all other naval units are considered average. (This will change over time as the situation warrants).

Air strikes
Each point of strike value provides a +1 to the strike roll. A 1d6 is rolled, and a 6 or better disrupts a unit, an 8 or better sinks a naval ship (lowest value target is destroyed first), and a 12 or better destroys a ground unit (headquarters units first, then mechanized units) and a 15 or better destroys ALL units stacked together (if land units) or up to 3 highest value naval units. Air units can be attacked on the ground and are treated as ground units for this purpose. Treat flak results and interception the same as for nuclear combat.

Air strikes that use chemical or biological agents have their strike rating increased by +1 for every level of agent being used (so a +6 for the type 6 agents for example).

Bombers
Can be intercepted. Air defense units or fighter interceptor units that make a successful attack either shoots down the attacking bomber unit or shoots down enough of the bombers to turn some back. In game terms, each nuclear armed bomber gets one nuclear target for each point of strike rating. This target can be attacked by up to 10 megatons for each strike value of a heavy or strategic bomber, and up to 20 kilotons for each strike value of a light bomber or fighter bomber. Bombers automatically hit, but if they are shot down, they only hit 1 target for every 4 points of strike rating and if aborted only get 1 hit for every 2 points of strike rating. 10 megatons automatically destroys all production centers in the city, and inflicts up to 10 million casualties (

Flak units
a. shoot down a light bomber or fighter bomber on a 2 in 6, abort it on a 3 or 4.
b. Shoot down a strategic or heavy bomber on a 1 in 6, 2 in 6 to abort.
c. Nuclear armed flak units (must have the appropriate technology) have their chance of success is doubled.
d. Nuclear armed interceptors have their attack strength increased by +5 against bombers.
e. guided missile cruisers and destroyers act as flak units of the same tech level
f. Wild weasel (defense suppression) aircraft reduce effectiveness of flak by -1
g. Tech level matters. -1 if defender is tech level 7 and attack tech level 7.5, and
-2 if tech level 8 versus tech level 7. This also works the other way (+1 or +2 if defender higher tech then attacker)
h. flak units can only defend one city each. Interceptors can reach any city within500 miles (short range), 750 miles (medium range) 1000 miles (long range) and this can be doubled by aerial refueling aircraft and increased by another 250 miles if supported by an airborne radar aircraft (like an S1 Tracer or E121)

AA Fire
Defending flak / SAM units get to only engage 1 aircraft unit per turn. So a force with 3 flak brigades could engage up to 3 aircraft units. They have a 2 in 6 chance of shooting down a unit of their own tech level, with a 3 result driving off the attacker. Strategic bombers and units supported by Wild Weasel aircraft (defense suppresion units... available beginning at tech level 7.5) reduce those results to 1 in 6 to be shot down, with a 2 driving off the attacker.

Defenses supported by airborne radar units like the E121 and S1 get a +1 to their combat value (for fighters) and +1 to their chances of shooting down or driving off attackers.

Special Forces
A commando type battalion or special forces type group can be simulated by having an airborne or alpine light infantry battalion, with the requirement that training spending be at least one step higher then your regular forces.

These kind of units are capable of special operations (like raids, evacuations, advisory work etc) and any special missions can be submitted to me for approval or not, and then a success chance is used. They often are destroyed carrying out the mission but if its important enough, its well worth the price. Just ask Germany and Rumania about the importance of the commando raids on the Scandic missile silos during the Twilight War

Up to a limit of 1 battalion for every 3 divisions in your army. The kind of soldiers you need for these units are rare, even in wartime.

Aircraft Reserves
Aircraft that are phased out can be placed in desert storage. They do not cost any maintenance, but have to be reconditioned (half their original cost rounded up) if brought back into service. Must be stored in desert conditions. They can be stored for up to 10 years after being placed in reserve.

example 2 RB47 recon heavy bombers (stored 1959)

Takes into account mammoth outdoor storage facilities like Davis Monthan AFB in real life. In real life these aircraft are frequently removed from storage and sold to foreign buyers, used as spare parts, or missile targets etc.

Nations that do not have a desert storage facility can use an Allied nations.

National Air Reserve Fleet:
In time of national emergency, airliners can be used to haul troops. Essentially 1 airline unit can be converted into 1 medium (national airline) or long range (international airline) transport unit. No commerce from that unit that year. The pilots can also be drafted into the Air Force as well (which means they can't fly commerce missions either).

Chemical and Biological warfare
Chemical weapons double the attack strength of units that attack enemy units that are at a lower tech level. If sufficient amounts of chemical weapons are used, serious environmental effects will occur. The exact triggering effect for serious environmental damage is unknown at this time in the RP. (It’s a lot though). Chemical weapons can be delivered by missile, artillery shell, bombs, and even airborne spraying aircraft. If used against an opponent of higher or the same tech level, both sides have their combat strengths HALVED (as the pace of operations slows down massively).

Biological weapons are case by case. They can be delivered by bomb at tech level 6, by missile at tech level 8. They can also be delivered by special operations and intelligence (also terrorist type units) at tech level 7. Exact effects vary, and proposals should be sent to Galveston Bay regarding plans. Risks of detection are very high beginning at tech level 7.

Prior to use a chemical must be discovered (ie researched) by a nation. This research must be conducted in the following order:

#, type, examples of agent, cost, time period required

1- Basic agents, allows use of Chlorine, 6 points, 2 years
2- Blister agents, alows use of Sulphur Mustard (Mustard Gas), 12 points, 2 years
3- Pulmonary agents, allows use of Phosgene,12 points, 3 years
4- Basic Nerve agents, allows use of Sarin, 20 points, 5 years
5- Blood Agents, allows use of Cyanogen Chloride, 30 points, 10 years
6- Advanced nerve agents, allows use of V series agents, 45 points, 15 years

Knowledge of step one is required for step two, and three for four etc.

Once discovered chemicals can be manufactured at the cost of 1 point per "batch". Once produced they can be used in warfare (though at the risk of international outrage). Each batch provides enough agent to either:

a) use in one unit of missiles
b) be used in a ground assault (ie. my mechanised division will attack your infantry corps with sarin gas)
c) be used in one bombing raid (no matter the number of bombers used)

Once used the batch is used up and counts as destroyed. Combat rules are explained above for ground combat and in the air strike rules for air units. Missile strikes using chemical and biological weapons vary in effect (referee determined) but generally 1 unit of missiles will be able to attack 1 enemy unit or enemy city with them. Cities hit by a successful biological or chemical weapons strike suffer 1D6 number of production centers damaged and lose 1D6 x 10 percent of their population as casualties. Civil Defense will reduce the effects of this however.

Munitions are expensive (guided weapons aren’t cheap).
In wartime, or if a military unit is used in combat, the maintenance cost for that unit is increased by .25 for every 3 months it is in combat (so a year would be an increase of +1). At the end of the first year in which the national economy is at national effort or wartime, this extra cost goes away (economies of scale kick in). Light infantry units do not ever pay this extra cost as they don’t have much artillery and have few missiles (if any).

Prepositioning
Allies can arrange to store military equipment in one another’s nation. This doubles the base cost of the unit in question, but during time of crisis or war, the personnel can be airlifted from the home nation to the host nation where they meet up with their prepositioned equipment and vehicles. Prepositioned equipment is destroyed if the enemy occupies the area where it is stored, and it can suffer damage from air strikes.

Other missiles
For simplicity, weapons systems like anti tank missiles, surface to air missiles, air to surface missile, anti ship missiles etc are assumed to be the best available for your tech level. If you can build a ballistic missile system or 3rd generation jet fighter, you can build the other weapons you need.

The exceptions are strategic systems like ballistic missiles and later on at tech level 8, cruise missiles.

Early Warning Systems
National Radar System -- cost is 5 points, provides up to 6 hours warning of air attack, 15 minutes warning of missile attack.
Airborne Early Warning -

Naval units

Carriers
Covers the cost of 1 carrier and 1 replenishment ship
CVAN (Heavy Carrier, nuclear powered) Cost 30, maintenance 2 points, construction time 4 years.
CVA (heavy carrier) cost 15, maintenance 2 points, construction time 3 years
CVN (fleet carrier, nuclear powered) cost 20, maintenance 1 point, construction time 3 years
CV (fleet carrier) cost 10, maintenance 1 point, construction time 2 years
CVLN (light carrier, nuclear powered), cost 10, construction time 2 years
CVL (light carrier), cost 5, construction time 1 year

Each carrier type has its own type of air wing. Carrier air wings are balanced units capable of great flexibility.

Air wings
Heavy Air Wings - consists of 4 fighter or fighter bomber squadrons, 2 light bomber squadrons, 1 Composite squadron with 4 AEW aircraft, 12 ASW aircraft (usually S2/E2 or similar, maintenance and price as AEW squadron), 1 ASW helicopter squadron. Found on a heavy or nuclear heavy carrier

Air Wing – consists of 3 fighter or fighter bomber squadrons, 1 light bomber squadron, 1 composite squadron, 1 ASW helicopter squadron. Found on a fleet or nuclear fleet carrier.

Light Air Wing – consists of up to 4 VTOL or Helicopter squadrons. Cannot carry any other aircraft type.

Carrier pilots must be at least expert and indicated as such. Non carrier pilots cannot fly carrier planes unless cross trained (which raises them 1 level from average to expert or expert to elite, or elite to elite carrier)

Cruisers
Costs are per ship, but also include the cost of a couple of helicopters and their pilots per ship. A cruiser is defined as any surface warship larger then 6,000 tons. Nuclear powered cruisers cost double the amount listed, and take a year longer to build. Cruisers are also armed with anti ship missiles enabling them to engage surface vessels as well as anti submarine weapons and anti air weapons.

Missile cruiser (heavy) consists of 1 ship, cost 10 maintenance .5, provides a SAM capability to surface fleets against high flying aircraft construction time 1 year
Missile cruiser (light) consist of 1 ships, cost 9, maintenence .5, provides a SAM capability to surface fleets against high flying aircraft construction time 1 year
Antiaircraft Cruiser consists of 1 ship. Cost 6, maintenance .5 points. Construction time 2 years.
Escort cruiser consists of 1 ship cost 4 points, maintenance .25 points
construction time 1 year

Any cruiser or carrier is automatically upgraded to tech level 7.5 during annual maintenance (more space available aboard for the better electronics. Upgrading to tech level 8 however requires a full refit, cost is 2 points and takes a year (called a service life extension project, or SLEP).

Aegis cruisers become available at Tech Level 8 if you spend 24 points to research the radar technology. They act as antiaircraft cruisers, and can engage any number of targets, including air launched missiles, unlike previous escort ships which are very limited in this respect. Aegis cruisers can be nuclear powered.

Cruisers can also carry 4 cruise missiles if a light, escort or AA cruiser, and 10 cruise missiles if a heavy cruiser.

Escorts
Destroyers are around 3,000 – 5900 tons, while frigates are 1,000 – 2900 tons. They both have the same mission, which is to kill enemy submarines and fight enemy aircraft but are not armed for surface combat except in emergencies unless it is to deal with enemy small craft like missile and torpedo boats. Both can carry 1 (frigate) or 2 (destroyer) helicopters, plus are equipped with SAMs, a rapid fire gun, and ASW torpedoes. They also (along with tech level 7.5 cruisers) negate the advantage nuclear submarines have over tech level 7 or older anti submarine warfare ships. Tech level 7 ships cannot be upgraded to tech level 7.5. Only destroyers can be nuclear powered (double cost and construction time). At Tech level 8, destroyers begin to carry anti ship missiles in sufficient quality to be able to engage targets like cruisers can.

Tech level 7.5 escorts
Destroyer unit (2 ships) cost 6, maintenance .25, construction time 1 year.
ASW Frigates (2 ships) cost 4, maintenance .25, construction time 1 year

Tech level 8 escorts
Destroyer (1 ship) cost 5, maintenance .25 construction time 1 year
Frigate (1 ship) cost 3, maintenance .10, construction time 1 year

Light Patrol / Escort vessels
These light ships are equipped with anti ship missiles or anti submarine weapons (but not both). These ships can be upgraded from tech level 7 to tech level 7.5, which is automatic upon refit. These ships and boats are generally 1,000 tons or smaller (escort) or even smaller then this (coastal patrol boats are around 100 tons in size). The upgrade for free to Tech level 8. Escort and Coastal patrol groups also act as minesweepers (the ships are included, but don’t have a naval combat rating).

Patrol / Escort group (20 corvettes) cost 5, maintenance .25, construction time 1 year

Coastal Patrol group (40 torpedo or later on, missile boats). Cost 3 points, maintenance .25, construction time 1 year

Older surface vessels
Destroyers and Frigates built at tech level 7 come in groups of 5, but cost the same as tech level 7.5 ships. They are at a disadvantage against tech level 7.5 warships and aircraft however. The same applies to Tech level 7 patrol and coastal patrol groups. Tech level 6 ships cost the same as tech level 7 ships to maintain, but are at an even worse disadvantage. All of this applies to Tech level 8 warships as well.

Battleships – can be converted to Battleships guided missile. All gun battleships can be converted into missile battleships at the cost of 2 points. Essentially the rear main turrets are removed and missile launchers (4 per turret for battleships) are installed, and the shell magazines now handle missiles.

Battleships are generally considered obsolete at this tech level. However, should you wish to build one, figure a cost of 20 points, double if nuclear powered. This gets you a 100,000 ton battleship armed with 6 x 18 inch guns, a lot of 5 inch guns, and several missile launchers and lots of armor. Very hard to sink with conventional weapons. However, battleships cost 3 points a year in maintenance because of their huge crew size and specialized weaponry. Construction time is 5 years, plus an extra year if nuclear powered.

Older all gun battleships can be brought back into service, as can old missile battleships. They cost 2 points to refit (in order to return to service) but also require 3 points a year to operate. They do however provide useful firepower if you wish to conduct amphibious landings. To upgrade them to Tech level 8 costs another 2 points, and 1 year in the dockyard. They can carry 20 cruise missiles however.


Submarines
Tech level is important in submarine warfare. Modern ships are quieter then older ships and this is the most important factor in ASW warfare. This is a function of hull design and other technologies that are added in from time of construction. Even tech level 7 submarines can be effective against tech level 7.5 ships however, just not as effective (and more vulnerable as well). Nuclear submarines are bought singly, while conventional powered submarines (equipped with snorkels, diesel engines and batteries) can be bought in groups of 5. At Tech level 8, submarines continue to grow larger, quieter and have even more weapons.

3rd generation nuclear attack submarine (SSNs) cost 10, maintenance 1
2nd generation nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) cost 6, maintenance .5
1st generation nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) cost 5, maintenance .5
Tech level 8 conventional submarine (SSKs) cost 10, maintenance 1, construction time 1 year
tech level 7.5 conventional submarines (SSKs) cost 5, maintenance .5, construction time 1 year
tech level 7 conventional submarines (SSKs) cost 4, maintenance .5, construction time 1 year

Ballistic missile submarines cost the same as a SSN, and carry 12 IRBMs. Larger versions carry +6 missiles for an extra 3 points. Maintenance is doubled however for missile subs as the missiles maintenance is included in the maintenance cost. Only nuclear powered submarines can carry IRBMs. Ballistic missile submarines have been outlawed by UN Treaty in 1964. Old SSBNs (ballistic missile submarines) can be converted into SSNs that can carry a special operations unit (2 points to convert). The unit is too small to represent in game terms but allows you to carry out occasional special operations that you can clear with the referee (me).

Nuclear submarines of all types are subject to accidents however. Sometimes including the loss of a submarine.

Other ships
Shipping unit (represents 200,000 tons of shipping at tech level 7.5, 250,000 tons of shipping at tech level 7, 500,000 tons of shipping at tech level 6) cost 3 points, maintenance free. Construction time 1 year. Provides income. Also can be converted into transport groups or amphibious assault groups.
Transport group (see above) cost 5 points, maintenance .25 points, can carry up to 6 ground divisions or brigades or 2 corps or 6 air units. Construction time 1 year
Amphibious assault group (as above), cost 6 points, maintenance .5 points can carry 2 light infantry brigades or 1 light infantry division or 1 mechanized amphibious brigade, construction time 1 year. Only amphibious assault groups can conduct amphibious assaults.

Air Forces

Important Note: Maintenance does not upgrade aircraft, it simply keeps them flying. You have to buy new aircraft to get new aircraft, unless it is a simple improvement of the same type (B model replaced by C model for example).

STOL: Aircraft marked with STOL and all helicopters do not need an airbase to land and operate from. They can even use a highway in an emergency or a reasonably prepared grass or snow field. STOL aircraft can also operate from carriers.

Only aircraft indicated as carrier capable or VTOL aircraft can operate from carriers, and F14s require a Heavy carrier, while ASW carriers can only operate VTOL aircraft

Pilots:
You must have one pilot unit per aircraft unit in order to operate the aircraft. You can have more or less if you chose to do so. Active and Reserve pilots can be expert or below average or average.

Below Average pilots: cost: .25 points, maintenance free, training time 6 months
Average pilots: cost: .5 points, maintenance free, training time 1 year
Expert pilots: cost: 1.5 points, maintenance .25 points, training time 2 years or 1 year combat
Elite pilots: cost 2 points, take 2 years to train, and are only available to nations that fought in the Twilight War, maintenance .5 points
Top Gun School: costs 10 points, allows you to retain the possibility of having elite pilots or get them if you didn’t have pilots that fought in the Twilight War

Aircraft Notes

Unit Size
At tech level 8, aircraft are more complex then ever. In addition, losses are now factored as squadrons lost instead of wings, as wars are more intense and of shorter duration. Instead of wings, aircraft now are counted as squadrons.

Strategic and heavy bombers, maritime patrol aircraft, transport aircraft, airborne early warning aircraft, tanker aircraft and transport aircraft are units of 12 planes.
Light bombers and helicopter units are 18 aircraft
Fighters and fighter bombers are units of 24 aircraft

Existing air units automatically break down in 3 helicopter, light, fighter or fighter bomber squadrons or 2 transport, heavy bomber, strategic bomber, tanker, or electronic warfare aircraft.

Range
Short range aircraft are capable of reaching the front line and a few miles beyond it (about 500 kilometers or less)
Medium range aircraft can conduct longer ranged operations up to 1000 kilometers
Long range aircraft can fly up to 2000 kilometers
Intercontinental range aircraft can fly up to 10,000 kilometers
Tanker units can be paired up with an air unit to increase its range by one (short to medium for example).

Special note
Aircraft listed as out of production can only be obtained second hand

Fighter and fighter bombers
Available 1965 cost 2 maintenance .25 unless otherwise indicated
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 5, strike rating 1, range medium (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 5, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather, (France/China/South Africa)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 6, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather (France/China)
Hal Marut air combat 5, strike 1, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India) cost 1, maintenance .25
J8 air combat 6, strike 1, range medium, air superiority fighter, cost 1, maintenance .25 China / Korea
Kfir I / Cheetah air combat 6, strike 2, range medium, cost 2,maintenance .5
FNS/ South Africa carrier capable
F4G Phantom Air combat 6, strike 5, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, US (Texas, Columbia, New England, Huron) carrier capable
Avro Arrow II air combat 5, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor Canada (Huron)
Su 22E air combat 8, strike 1, range medium, Russia
Mig 23 Air combat 6, strike 1, range short, Poland
Tornado I air combat 5, intercept 7, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor UK/Germany/Italy (air defense version of Tornado)
China Aviation / Mirage G air combat 6, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor China
Mirage F1 air combat 7, strike 1, range medium, all weather fighter, carrier capable, France
F5B/T38 fighter bomber / trainer air combat 5, strike 1, range short, cost 1, maintenance .10 (US)
F12 Blackbird air combat 2 intercept 10, strike 0, range long, cost 6, maintenance 3, all weather interceptor version 1958 (FNS) can intercept any aircraft up to 100,000 feet
Dornier Alphajet bomber / trainer air combat 3,strike 1, range short, Germany Cost 1, maintenance .10
Hawker Hawk bomber / trainer air combat 3, strike 1, range medium, UK
Cost 1, maintenance .10
Harrier MK1 air combat 9, strike 1, range short, VTOL aircraft, (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 2, maintenance .5 (first entered service 1969 so available 1964) UK
Yak 38 air combat 8, strike 1, range short, VTOL aircraft (can operate on any carrier and without airstrips) cost 2, maintenance .5 (first entered service 1971 so available 1964) Russia

Available 1968 or when Tech level 8 is reached
F15A Eagle air combat 10, interceptor 8, strike 1, range long, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F14A Tomcat air combat 8, interceptor 10, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter / interceptor, heavy carrier capable
Mig 21S air combat 8, strike 1, range short, STOL capable, cost 1, maintenance .25 (Poland)
Viggen air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Sweden)

Available 1971 or when Tech level 8 is reached
Sea Harrier / Harrier II air combat 9, strike 3, range short, cost 2, maintenance .5 VTOL, UK
Mirage 2000 air combat 8, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, all weather fighter bomber, carrier capable (France)
F16A Falcon air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, fighter bomber (Texas)
JF12 Cobra (based on YF17 which leads to F18) air combat 9, strike 3, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, fighter bomber, carrier capable (FNS)
J10 (based on Lavi which is based on F16) air combat 8, strike 1, range medium, cost 1, maintenance .25, fighter (Korea)
Su 27 air combat 10, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter, carrier capable, (Russia)
Mig 29 air combat 10 strike 1, range short, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Poland)
Available 1978
Li-8 Tai Lo air combat 9, strike 1, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .5, all weather fighter (Indochina)
F15C air combat 13, strike 3, range long, cost 2, maintenance 1, all weather fighter (Columbia)
F15E air combat 12, strike 5, range medium, cost 2, maintenance 1, all weather fighter bomber (Columbia)

Light Bombers Cost 1, maintenance .25
Etendard (France) air combat 1, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A4 Skyhawk (Columbia) air combat 1, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A7 Corsair (Texas) air combat 2, strike rating 2, range short, carrier capable
A6 Intruder (Dixie) air combat 3, strike rating 3, range medium, all weather carrier capable (special cost 2, maintenance .5)
Fiat G.91 (Italy) air combat 1, strike rating 1, range short (Italy) Single engine
SEPCAT Jaguar air combat 3, strike 2, range medium, all weather bomber UK/France (single engine)
HAL Kiran light bomber / trainer, air combat 2, strike 1, naval strike 2, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Pakistan) single engine
L29 air combat 2, strike 1, also a useful trainer aircraft (Czechslovakia) single engine
Saab Lansen air combat 2, strike 1, range medium, (SU) single engine
Mig 27 air combat 4, strike 2, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, Poland
IAR 93 air combat 2, strike 2, range long, all weather bomber, Rumania
Sokko J22 Orao air combat 3, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Romania
Nanchang Q-5 air combat 4, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, China / India
Q6 (based on Super Enterard) air combat 1, strike 4, maritime strike 4, range long, all weather fighter bomber, 1968
JH7 air combat 3 (defense only), strike 2, maritime strike 3, range medium, all weather bomber, China 1965
Mitsubishi F1 air combat 2, strike 1, maritime strike 2, range medium, all weather maritime attack aircraft Japan
Pucara light bomber (turbo prop) air combat 0, strike 1, naval strike 1, STOL capable, carrier capable, cost .5, maintenance .25 (FNS) tanker buster

Medium bombers cost 2, maintenance 1
FB111 Aardvark medium bomber air combat 4 strike rating 3, range medium, all weather capable, (US)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 0, strike rating 2, range medium (UK/Dixie)
Tu14 medium bomber air combat 0, strike rating 3, range medium (Sweden), can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)
Su 24 air combat 4 (defense only) strike 3 (maritime and ground), range medium, all weather bomber, Russia
Backburn Buccaneer air combat 2, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, nuclear capable, all weather, can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)

available 1970
A10 Thunderbolt air combat 2, strike 3, range short, ground support aircraft, tank buster, (Texas) cost 1, maintenenace .25
Su25 air combat 3, strike 2, range short, ground support aircraft, carrier capable, tank buster (Russia) cost 1, maintenance .25
Ju 987 Stuka II air combat 2, strike 3, range short, tank buster (Germany) cost 1, maintenance .25

Available 1978
Li-10 Xao Li air combat 2, strike 2, range short, tank buster (Indochina) cost 1, maintenance .25


heavy jet bombers cost 3, maintenance 1 unless otherwise noted
Tu 16 (Badger) heavy bomber air combat 0, strike rating 3, range long (Sweden)(nuclear capable)(can carry anti ship missiles, naval strike 3)
Tu 22 heavy bomber, air combat 3, strike rating 2, range medium, nuclear all weather capable, can carry carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 2) (SU) (out of production)
Tu26 Backfire air combat 4, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Scandic Union 1967
Tu22M Backfire air combat 4, maritime strike 3, strike 1, all weather maritime strike aircraft, Scandic Union 1966

Jet strategic bombers cost 6, maintenance 2 unless otherwise noted
(all are nuclear capable, all weather, and air combat rating is defense only)
TU95 Bear air combat 3, strike rating 3, range long, Scandic Union), cruise missile capable
Avro Vulcan air combat 2, strike 3, range intercontental, (UK)
China Aviation Kirin air combat 3, strike 3, range long, (China)
China Aviation Kirin B air combat 3, strike 3, maritime strike 2, range long, (China) 1961
Nova Bomber air defense 3, strike 6, maritime strike 2, range long, cost 5, China
Condor air combat 6, strike 2, maritime strike 1, range intercontinental cost 8, maintenance 4, all weather Mach 3 bomber (the B70) FNS
B1 Lancer air combat 6 (defense only), strike 7, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5 1968 (Texas)
B1B Lancer air combat 6 (defense only), maritime strike 4, range intercontinental, all weather maritime strike aircraft, cost 10, maintenance 5, 1968 (Texas)
Ht-64 'Shan Shi' air combat 4 (defense only), strike 3, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5, China / USAE 1969
H-7 Lei (Thunder Dragon) air combat 5 (defense only), strike 3, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 12, maintenance 6, China (based on this aircraft http://www.unrealaircraft.com/classics/su_100.php
(the H-7 and B1 are also ideal for intelligence gathering missions

patrol planes and bombers
Aztec air combat 1, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, range long (Mexico) cost 2, maintenance .25
P3 Orion air combat 0, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (US) cost 2, maintenance .25
S2 Tracker ASW carrier based aircraft air combat 0, strike 1, range long ASW/All weather capable cost 1, maintenance .10 (Brazil)
Breguet Atlantique air combat 0, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (France), cost 2, maintenance .25
Hawker Siddeley Nimrod air combat 4, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range long, maritime patrol and ASW aircraft (UK) cost 2, maintenance .25
Beriev Be-6 air combat rating 0, naval strike rating 1, strike rating 1, maritime patrol aircraft, flying boat (Russia) cost 1, maintenance .10
IL28 (Hong 5P) medium bomber air combat 1, naval strike 1, strike rating 2, range medium (Korea) cost 2 maintenance .25

Transport aircraft
Special Notes: All Transport units can carry or air drop 1 light infantry brigades, or or carry the personnel for 1 prepositioned brigade. Exceptions are listed.

C123 Provider theater transport air combat rating 1, range medium cost .5, maintenance cost .10, STOL capable (US)
C130 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, (US) STOL cost 1, maintenance .25

An 12 Cub air combat 0, strike 0, range long, (Russia) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
HT-80 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, (USAE) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
TU 107 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (SU)
C141 Starlifter air combat 5, strike 0, range intercontinental, cost 2, maintenance .25, US
IL76 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance .5, Scandic, STOL capable, cost 2, maintenance .25,
Do 500 air combat 0, strike 0, range intercontinental, German, STOL capable, cost 2, maintenance .25,
Mitsubishi C1 air combat 0, strike 0, range medium,STOL (can operate in primitive conditions), cost .5,maintenance .10 Japan
C5 transport, air combat 0, strike 0, range long, can carry any non mechanized brigade or missile unit or helicopter unit cost 2, maintenance .5, US
Nova transport unit (same as C5) except range intercontinental

Tanker aircraft
Tanker aircraft can refuel 1 strategic or heavy bomber or transport unit, or 2 light bomber, fighter or fighter bomber units

DO501 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, tanker version of Do 500, cost 1, maintenance .25 (Germany)
An 15 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, tanker version of An 12 (Russia) STOL capable cost 1, maintenance .25
KC97 tanker air combat 0, range long , out of production, maintenance .25 (out of production)
KC 135 air combat 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (US)
Lincoln Tanker air combat 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance .25 (UK)
Handley Page Victor air combat 4, strike 0, range long, (UK) cost 1, maintenance .25
China Aviation Kirin also available in a tanker version (Lamsong tanker)(China)
air combat 5, strike 0, range long, can refuel 1 strategic bomber or 2 other air units
Nova Tanker (same as bomber but no strike rating and air combat is 3) can refuel 1 Nova bomber unit or 2 strategic or heavy bomber units or 3 regular air units. China cost 1, maintenance .25

Electronic Warfare aircraft
Consists of 3 basic types: Airborne Early Warning aircraft, Defense suppression aircraft, and Signet aircraft

Airborne Early Warning Aircraft
Tech level 7.5 twin engine AEW aircraft provide a +2 to air combat/air defenses, while 4 engine aircraft provide a +3. Existing 4 engine early warning aircraft are upgraded for free during maintenance once reaching tech level 7.5. Classify Airborne Early Warning aircraft as AEW aircraft for game purposes. These aircraft are generally spread around, and 1 unit will support 15 air units plus 10 flak units. At tech level 8, AEW are +3 and +4 and +6 (for the Nova only at that tech level)

Carrier based
1 unit provides sufficient aircraft for up to 20 carriers (provides better radar protection for carriers that have them, and reduces the ability of the enemy to find those same carriers by using the radar emissions of the carrier against it). These aircraft are factored in automatically into carrier wings (see carrier wing rules in naval section) but can be bought as landbased units.

E2 Tracker air defense 0, strike 0, range long, cost 1, maintenance 1, replaces E1 Tracer, (US)
E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft cost 3 points, maintenance 1 point, (US) out of production

Land based
See above

EA12 airborne early warning aircraft (Russia) (converted transport) (same as AN12)
ETU95 (Scandic Union)(converted bomber)(same as TU95) cost 2 maintenance 1
E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft cost 1 points, maintenance 1 point, (US, FNS)
E3 Sentry air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, improved AWACs aircraft, special bonuses cost 5, maintenance 3 US/UK/Australia/FNS
Nova AEW air combat 1, strike 0, range intercontinental, AWACs aircraft, cost 3, maintenance 3

Defense Suppression aircraft
EA6 Prowler air combat 6 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather carrier EW/Jamming aircraft. Cost 2, maintenance 2, reduces the effectiveness of enemy anti aircraft defenses and interceptors
EFB111 Raven air combat 5 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather EW/Jamming aircraft, cost 2, maintenance 2, capabilities as per EA6
Tornado Mk 3 air combat 5 (defense only), strike 0,range medium, all weather UK/Germany (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) cost 2, maintenance 2 1965
Nanchang EQ-5 air combat 4 (defense only) strike 0, range medium, (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) China 1965 cost 2, maintenance 2
TU 128 air combat 4 (defense only), strike 2, range long, all weather defense suppression aircraft 1964 cost 2, maintenance 2 Russia

Wild Weasel
Any 3rd Generation light bomber or fighter with a strike rating of 2 or better can be converted into defense suppression aircraft. Air combat becomes defense only (and remains unchanged), Strike value is 0, but acts as a EW/Jamming aircraft. Maintenance costs are doubled. \

Signet aircraft
Provide an intelligence bonus to nations that own them.

RC135 Rivet Joint air defense 0, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance 2, provides intelligence (signals) gathering information (improves codebreaking chances, which becomes automatic for nations with a lower tech level then the owner). (US)
The Nova, TU95, An12 and Kirin can also be modified into Signet aircraft, use RC135 costs

Strategic recon aircraft
SR 71 Blackbird air combat 10, strike 0, range long, cost 6, maintenance 3, can only be intercepted by an interceptor with intercept rating 10 or better
Sukhoi T4 air combat 9 (defense only), strike 0, range long (intercontinental with tanker support) cost 5, maintenance 3

Helicopters
All helicopters are VTOL
Tech level 7 transport helicopters cost 1, maintenance .25, can carry 1 light infantry battalion (so 3 are required to carry 1 infantry brigade) range is short
Tech Level 7.5
All cost 2, maintenance .5, range is short
Transport helicopters can carry 1 infantry battalion (so 3 required to carry 1 light infantry brigade)
Cargo helicopters can carry 1 artillery battalion (so 3 required for 1 infantry or artillery brigade)
Attack helicopters have a strike rating of 3 and are tank busters
ASW helicopters have a naval strike rating of 3 and can attack submarines
Tech level 8 helicopters range is medium
All cost 3, maintenance .5
Same as tech level 8 helicopters except
Attack helicopters have a strike rating of 6 and are tank busters, also have a air combat rating of 1 and can shoot down aircraft and other helicopters
ASW helicopters have naval strike rating of 6 and an air combat rating of 1 and can engage aircraft and other helicopters
Cargo helicopters can be refueled with air to air refueling (extending range to long)

Ground Units

Notes on Size
Current Guidelines:
Battalions are 1,000 men (including support needed outside of the battalion)
Brigades are 5,000 men (including support needed outside of the brigade)
Divisions and Groups are 20,000 men (as above)
Corps and Units are 50,000 men (as above)

As tech levels progress these sizes will decrease as technology begins to replace older jobs and fewer people are required to have the same firepower

Types of Unit

Light infantry units
All light infantry units can be carried by transport aircraft and helicopters, can operate in any terrain without penalty, get combat advantages for cities and rough terrain and movement advantages for jungle, rough, and forest terrain. Costs reflect not only equipment but also initial training. Maintenance reflects training costs.

Special forces battalions cost 1 point, maintenance .25 (lots of special equipment) can be airdropped by 1 aircraft up to the limit of range and are also automatically able to act as marines, mountain troops, jungle troops or artic troops or desert troops. Only 1 special forces battalion is allowed for every 12 brigades or brigade sized units of regular troops. A special forces battalion attached to a division sized unit automatically improves its quality one rating (maximum is raising it to highly trained). A special forces battalion can also form the cadre of a light infantry corps by adding 2 points, a 50,000 men, and 6 months to train them. At which point a highly trained light infantry corps is born. This makes it ideal for using to help allies raise their forces in a hurry or to allow allies to convert guerilla militia corps into guerilla light infantry corps (which then forms 6 light infantry brigades).

Parachute brigade cost: 2 points maintenance .25 points, combat strength 1, can be airdropped by 1 transport aircraft up to the limit of its range

Marine light infantry brigade cost 2 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 1, can conduct amphibious landings if transported by a transport or amphibious group

Mountain infantry brigade cost 2 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 1, can cross high mountain areas and operate in arctic conditions without penalty.

Light infantry division cost 1 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 2. consists of 3 light infantry brigades

Standard forces

Standard units that have some trucks and heavy weapons, but not as much as mechanized and motorized units do. Standard units can be airlifted but cannot conduct air assaults or parachute landings. They do get combat advantages for cities and rough terrain. No movement advantages or special disadvantages.

Garrison unit cost 3 points, maintenance .25, combat strength 3, combat strength includes flak strength, cannot move except by strategic movement, no partisan / guerilla operations near garrison units. Consists of 3 infantry and 3 flak brigades

Infantry division cost 1 point, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 2, the standard infantry division. Consists of 3 infantry brigades

Infantry corps cost 5 points, maintenance .5 points, combat strength 5, 2 infantry divisions plus corps artillery support. Consists of 6 infantry brigades, 1 artillery brigade, and 1 flak brigade.

Flak group cost 3 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 3, includes surface to air missiles, special anti air defense adjustment (reduces damage caused by air attacks.). this is a brigade sized unit.

Artillery unit 3 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 3, provides combat advantages in combat. This is a brigade sized unit

Mechanized forces

Have a lot of mobility, with all units having sufficient vehicles to move everything at once, and usually includes at least some tanks and other armored vehicles. Special combat advantages against light and conventional forces, but also special terrain disadvantages in rough, swamp, forest, jungle and urban terrain, and special movement disadvantages in forest, jungle, rough and swamp terrain. These units cannot be airlifted unless it is to be airlifted to meet up with prepositioned equipment.

Mechanized and Armored Corps cost 14 points, maintenance is 3 points, combat strength is 16. (the whole is greater then the sum of its parts). Generally mechanized corps are better defending, while armored corps are better at attacking. Mechanized corps act as a flak group as well but only to defend itself. Consists of 7 armored or mechanized brigades, 1 flak brigade, 1 artillery brigade.

Mechanized infantry division cost 4 points, maintenance .5 points, combat strength 5 consists of 3 mechanized brigades or 1 armored and 2 mechanized brigades.

Armoured division cost 5 points, maintenance .5 points, combat strength 6. consists of 3 armored brigades or 2 armored and 1 mechanized brigade.

Armoured brigade and mechanized brigades cost 2 points, maintenance .25 points, combat strength 2

Mechanized artillery group cost 5 points, maintenance .5 points, combat strength 4, otherwise as artillery. Brigade sized unit

Mechanized flak group cost 5 points, maintenance .5 points, combat strength 4, otherwise as flak. Brigade sized unit

mechanized marine brigade cost 2 points, maintenance .5 points, combat strength 2, can conduct amphibious landings if transported by an amphibious group

HQs cost 10 points, maintenance is 1 point, can reorganize up to 10 air or ground units, and can extend supply and has special combat advantages. Represents not only commanders, but the extensive combat and general support units that make armies function better. Corps sized unit

Hovercraft brigades cost 10 points, maintenance 3 points, combat strength 2, can operate as a combination naval and ground unit. Essentially hovercraft with missile launchers, machine guns, mortars and 20-30 mm cannon. Only available at tech level 8.

Training
troop quality can effect cost and value (costs are per unit)
Substandard troops - .25 points for maintenance, -1 combat value
average troops - unchanged, use standard values
highly trained troops +.25 points for maintenance, +1 combat value
elite trained troops +.5 points for maintenance, +2 combat value
National Training Center costs 10 points, and is required in order to have elite troops. Only available at Tech level 8.

NB: Reserve units cannot be highly trained or elite as there is simply not enough time to train them (most only train 28 days a year) and no government is going to "waste" money in buying and maintaining equipment for non-essential/second line troops.

Exception for training occurs for Special Operations troops, which can be highly trained (+.25 points), elite (+.5 points) or handpicked (+1 point). These people are natural warrior types and usually don’t pick up the bad peacetime habits regular troops do.

Nuclear Warfare

Nuclear weapons
Consist of 6 types: atomic weapons (20 – 50 kilotons), boosted atomic weapons (50 – 100 kilotons), hydrogen/thermonuclear weapons (50 kilotons – 5 megatons), boosted thermonuclear weapons (6 – 20 megatons), super bombers (25 – 200 megatons) and tactical nuclear weapons (1 kiloton – 50 kilotons)

Special note: Once you have atomic weapons, 6 points a year to research and infrastructure will get you boosted weapons after 5 years (as long as you have reached tech level 7).

Tech level 6
Atomic Weapons require you to spend 24 points a year for 3 years to develop the needed infrastructure (seperation plants, reactors, fuel production facilities) and technology to actually build the bombs. Also required is basic research: 24 points at tech level 6, 12 points at tech level 7 or higher.

You get a working bomb midway through the third year. These weapons are 20 – 50 kilotons and can only be carried by a heavy or strategic bomber.

Tech level 7
BOOSTED FISSION WEAPONS
To build boosted fission bombs, another 24 points and must have atomic weapons. However, you can shrink the size of atomic bombs so that big missiles and 2 engined bombers can carry them, but only 4 engine or bigger planes for the boosted weapons (which are 250 -400 kilotons). Boosted bombs are tech level 7.

Boosted fission capability also automatically gets you nuclear power plants (and vice versa, if you have nuclear power plants, you can build fission and boosted fission weapons without spending for research, although you still have to spend the 72 points for infrastructure).

HYDROGEN BOMBS
To build a Hydrogen bomb, you must spend 24 points a year for 3 years to develop it. You must also spend 24 points on the sciences needed for the technology to build it. You must be tech level 7 to even begin the process. Initial bomb is 10 - 15 megatons

Once you have hydrogen bombs, the 6 points a year spent on research and infrastructure will get you boosted thermo nuclear weapons by year 3 after getting the technology, super weapons and tactical weapons by year 5.

Bombers can carry thermonuclear, boosted thermonuclear and tactical weapons. Missiles can only carry tactical weapons, except for very heavy lift rockets, which can carry boosted thermonuclear weapons. Super weapons cannot by delivered conventionally by aircraft or missile. A number of creative scenarios for their use do exist and can be found if you do the research. Contact Galveston Bay for approval and provide links indicating where your proposal comes from.

At tech level 8 neutron weapons will become available. They require another 24 points of research, but create far less radiation. The bigger the warhead at tech levels 7 – 7.5, the more radiation released. Much of this radiation is essentially permanent unless massive efforts are made to clear it up. The exact amount is not understood and will not be for decades further in the future. Neutron weapons reduce long term permanent radiation to 10% of its normal amounts (more short term, less long term radiation).

A large enough nuclear exchange will trigger environmental consequences of a dire nature. The exact degree and scope will depend on the size of the nuclear exchange. Nuclear Autumn, and even Dr. Strangelove type (total destruction of humanity) are not impossible. The exact threshold is ESTIMATED to be somewhere around the 1000 megaton level, but this figure is purely an ESTIMATE at this time in this RP. (Galveston Bay will provide appropriate information should it come up).

Nuclear warfare
For every 1 point of strike rating, a nation with nuclear (not atomic, but nuclear) can destroy 1 combat unit (ship, air unit on the ground, ground unit). For every 2 points of strike rating, a nation with nuclear (not atomic) can destroy (not damage) 1 production center. Each combat turn (2 months)

Atomic weapons require 2 points of strike rating for the same effect, and can only damage production centers, not destroy them.

Radiation and EMP effects will be determined at the time of the strike using the best available information (and Galveston Bay has a lot of it)

Nuclear and Atomic strikes generally always get through and losses to attacking aircraft are determined after the strike is carried out (they get intercepted, but as so many aircraft are available, what is really being determined is how many survive to strike again)

Air units conducting nuclear strikes can attack 1 target for each point of their strike value. Units that are destroyed or driven off only get to attack 1 target for every 2 points of their strike value (if driven off) or 1 for every 3 (if shot down)

Naval and Ground Units that are attacked with nuclear weapons are destroyed 50% of time (if they survive they are automatically disrupted). Any air unit attacked by nuclear weapons while on the ground is destroyed, and if attacked in the air by nuclear tipped missiles interceptors get a +2 to their air combat rating and Flak units get a +1 to their shoot down chances.

At lower tech levels its a -1 or -2. (a Tech level 6 flak unit fighting a Tech level 7.5 jet is at a -2, and against a strategic bomber cannot literally successfully engage them. This has mostly to do with electronic warfare superiority, which can be decisive).

EMP and radiation effects
Every airburst of a nuclear weapon creates an electromagnetic pulse and radiation. Ground burst produce the most radiation, while airbursts create the most EMP.
For game purposes, the actual real knowledge of this is limited. However, a suitable plan presented to me will be judged based on my knowledge. For example, it is known that 1 megaton warhead detonated at 100,000 feet will fry most electronic circuits with 200 miles of the target. Bigger warheads, such as a 25 megaton weapon, could fry circuits up to 3,000 miles away. A lot of this is unknown (as it never happened) so this will require appropriate research and a certain amount of estimation when or if it comes up. Units and production centers hit by EMP are disrupted (damaged in the case of production centers, which require repair). Tech level 6 units and production centers are not affected by EMP, and tech level 7 units suffer less damage (range of the effect is quartered). Only at tech level 7.5, when integrated circuits become common, does this become really serious issue.

Hardening circuits is very expensive, and requires retrofitting (3 points for every production center, increases the cost of military units by 25%).

Radiation causes fall out, and the extent of the fallout is as follows. Fallout will affect 100 miles for every 1 megatons used on a target (extends downwind). Weather such as rain will lessen this, will high temperatures will double the fallout pattern. This is a very, very simplified rule, but should give you an idea of how it works. Ground bursts doubles this distance. Any production center or military unit caught in the path of fallout is disrupted (military units) or damaged (production centers). Civil defense will have the effect of essentially reducing the casualties inflicted by fallout (figure HALF of the population in the fallout pattern will become major casualties, and half of those will die, civil defense reduces this by half as well).

Civil Defense
Hardens civilian targets so that casualties and damage is reduced. Civilian casualties and production center damage is halved.

National command centers
If you are spending for civil defense you get these automatically. Otherwise, if your capital is hit by a nuke, you no longer control your military forces or have a working government. A new government will eventually form after a month (if damage is limited), or may never (if damage is catastrophic).

If you are not spending for civil defense, then 1 point provides up to 10 national command centers (which gives you a working military and national command structure, although with enough damage they may not have anyone to command).

Missiles
These are high tech items no matter when they are developed. Although capable in theory of hitting their targets in minutes instead of hours, they have issues.

Research limits
No more then 24 points a year can be spent on missile technology, even if conducted by allies (they simply share the cost).

Missile reliability.
Missiles of all types are highly complex machines prone to all kinds of technical problems. Deployed missiles never get all of the maintenance they need, but they usually get enough so that a portion of them will work when called on.

a. Liquid fueled ICBMs and large ICBMs have a 50% reliability rate (failure means they don’t launch, or launch and fail at some point in the boost stage or burn up during reentry. In case of a failure of 95% or higher they explode on launch taking out the launch facility).
b. Liquid fued IRBMs and MRBMs have a 60% reliability rate (see above).
c. Improved IRBMs have a 70% reliability rate (and catastrophic failure on 99 or better)
d. Solid fueled IRBMs and ICBMs have a 75% reliability rate (with the same catastrophic failure of 99 or 100)
e. Second generation missiles (such as the Minuteman II versus the Minuteman I) reduce their failure rate by 10%, which goes down another 5% for 3rd generation and then 2% for each missile design after that. They always have at least a 10% chance of failure (and 1% chance of catastrophic failure)

Liquid Fueled Missiles
Liquid fuel missiles: Require 10 hours to fuel (you can’t store the fuel permanently with the missile for technical reasons). Fueling is very observable by advanced spy satellites and spy planes (should one happen to by in line of sight of it). They cannot be launched until they fuel. This makes them vulnerable to a first strike or even a retaliatory strike under certain conditions.

First missiles produced have a CEP (circular error probability, how likely they are to hit the target 50% of the time) of 50 kilometers. First generation and 2nd generation missiles can carry up to 1 megaton (if ICBM), or 200 kilotons (if IRBM) or 50 kilotons if MRBM or Tactical (V2 type) missile.

At tech level 7, any generation missile can be upgraded at half the cost of replacing them completely (making them next generation missiles). Though there are some research prerequisites described below.

2nd Generation missiles can be built after spending 12 points in research costs. CEP drops to 10 kilometers. Chemical weapons can be carried, and if tactical nuclear weapons technology is available, then nuclear warheads can be carried.
3rd generation missiles are possible at tech level 7.5, after building 2nd generation missiles, at the cost of 12 points of research. CEP improves to 1000 meters. MIRVs can also be carried (limit 5).

4th generation missiles cannot be built until tech level 8 and another 12 points of research. CEP improves to 100 meters. MIRVs can be carried (limit 10)

No more than one upgrade level can be gained each turn, the research cost does not count against the max missile staged research costs.

MIRVs (Multiple Independently targeted Reentry Vehicles) are limited in yield. An ICBM can carry up to 1000 kilotons in MIRVs (2000 kilotons at 4th generation), and 3rd generation IRBMs can carry up to 500 kilotons in MIRVs (1000 kilotons at 4th generation).

Tech level 6
Ballistic missile technology (V2 type) 24 points, tech level 6, 1 point buys 500 missiles, plus 1 point a year for maintenance. They have a range of short (as per aircraft).

Short range cruise missiles (V1 type) as above

Tech level 7
1. MRBM missiles (as per V2, but have a medium range of several hundred miles). Research cost is 24 points, then Cost 1 point for 200 missiles, plus 1 point a year for maintenance.

2. 2nd Generation MRBMs (see rules for upgrading missiles).

3. Intermediate (IRBM) range missiles (range is long, up to 2000 miles), research cost 24 points plus unit Cost is 1 point for 100 missiles plus 1 point a year for maintenance (Redstone type missile) CEP is 10 miles. Must have 2nd generation MRBM technology to begin research.

4. ICBM (intercontinental range missiles) range is 6500 miles, liquid fuel missiles, research cost is 48 points, unit cost is 1 point for every 25 missiles plus 1 point a year for maintenance (Atlas type missiles). Must have IRBM technology to begin researching.

5. Large ICBMs, range is 10,000 miles, liquid fuel, research cost 24 points, unit cost is 1 point for every 10 missiles plus 1 point a year for maintenance. (Titan type). Must have ICBM technology to begin research.

6. Improved IRBMs, range is 2500 miles, liquid fuel, research cost is 24 points, unit cost is 1 point for 24 missiles, plus 1 point a year for maintenance. Can be carried aboard a ballistic missile submarine. Regarding Submarine launched missiles: Initially these are also liquid fueled, which means unlike land based missiles, they have the fuel aboard the missiles. This is risky, and they have to be carefully handled before and after each sortie of the submarine carrying them. This means there is a risk of accident (1D6 a year is rolled by the war moderator, and a 6 result means the owning nation loses a missile submarine at sea to accident. For reference, look up the loss rate of Soviet submarines during the historical Cold War).


7. Solid fuel missiles, research cost is 48 points, unit cost same as type of missile desired. This takes care a lot of the problems listed above regarding safety and reliability.

8. MIRV technology. 72 points, allows IRBMs and ICBMs to carry more than 1 warhead.

Cruise missiles Require tech level 8, 3rd generation ICBM technology (for guideance), improved communications satellites (for guidance) plus 24 points of research (12 a year for 2 years) CEP 100 meters, air combat rating 16 (defense only) range long, can be carried by ships, submarines, or heavy or intercontinental bombers. Each missile costs .10 points. Destroyers can carry 4, attack submarines 4, cruisers 10, battleships 20, medium, heavy and strategic bombers 1 missile per strike rating. Cruise missiles can intercepted by fighters, or by tech level 8 air defense systems.

Missile silos
1 point provides missile silos for 1 missile unit. The silos allow the units to be better hidden and protected prior to useage, though silos must be built in a new location (at a one point cost) if the missiles are moved subsequently and bonus is to be retained. Only 2nd generation liquid fueled missiles and any generation solid fuel missile can be placed in silos.

Other Special Rules
1. Missile launch facilities. Hardened facilities, a missile silo, can only be destroyed by a direct hit. A 1st generation missile has a 1% chance of this, a 2nd generation has a 20% chance of this, and a 3rd generation missile has a 50% chance of this.
2. Fraticide. Although targeting multiple warheads at a single target sounds good in theory, the timing has to be exact otherwise the first detonation will wipe out all of the other warheads. 10% chance of success with 1st generation, improving to 50% with 2nd generation and 75% chance of success with 3rd generation (targeting systems do improve).
3. Refitting a missile is possible. At tech level 7, 1st generation ICBMs can be upgraded at half the cost of replacing them completely (in essence, making them 2nd generation missiles). 2nd Generation missiles can be built after spending 12 points in research costs. 3rd generation missiles are possible at tech level 7.5, after building 2nd generation missiles, at the cost of 12 points of research. 4th generation missiles cannot be built until tech level 8.
4. Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles (MIRVS) require research. (see above) Each warhead rolls to hit however and this allows one missile to hit several targets in the same 100 mile area.
10. For convenience, the war moderator rolls missile reliability for each group of missiles, not for each missile. However, for fairness, accuracy for each nuclear warhead has to be rolled separately. A miss means the target is not damaged (although a really big city, like New York or London or Shanghai will suffer partial damage as their suburbs extend for many miles).
11. Results. A hit will destroy the target. In other words, a military base or missile silo is completely destroyed. A city suffers 100,000 casualties for each 50 kilotons of warhead used and will lose 1 production center for each 50 kilotons used. MIRVs attack multiple production centers in the same city by the way.

Anti-Ballistic Missiles
First generation ABM (tech level 7.5). Requires improved IRBM, nuclear capability for at least 15 years, and 72 points of research (no more then 12 points year). Considered missile research. Once developed, a unit of 10 missiles has a chance (1 in 4) of destroying a ballistic missile attack before it hits. However, this chance is reduced to 1 in 10 if MIRVs are used.

Side effect is serious EMP effects suffered by the defending nation. Look up the Soviet Galosh system and the US Nike Zeus system for examples.

Second generation ABM (tech level 8). As above, but another 72 points of research (no more then 12 points a year). Can engage MIRVs with 1 in 4 chance of success in stopping each warhead. Same problems with EMP though.

Third Generation ABM is tech level 8.5... gets you the Patriot type system. Rules for that when appropriate.

Nuclear tests in upper atmosphere and space can be found by watching the movie "Rainbow Bombs" and "Trinity and Beyond" both available via Netflix, and looking up information on the internet.

Nuclear weapons in space will damage satellite systems, sometimes severely.


Important Note
The war moderators (Galveston Bay and Lesser Ribenia) determined the results of nuclear strikes. Unless they are involved, in which case, a neutral player will be given the job.

Then Galveston Bay will figure out how bad the global and continental ecospheres have been messed up.

A large enough nuclear exchange will trigger environmental consequences of a dire nature. The exact degree and scope will depend on the size of the nuclear exchange. Nuclear Autumn, and even Dr. Strangelove type (total destruction of humanity) are not impossible. The exact threshold is ESTIMATED to be somewhere around the 1000 megaton level, but this figure is purely an ESTIMATE at this time in this RP. (Galveston Bay will provide appropriate information should it come up).

OUT of production air units still found in service or are readily available
maintenace costs are .25 unless otherwise indicated

AD1 Skyraider air combat 0, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 2, range short (STOL capable) (US)
F100 Super Saber air combat 2, strike rating 1, range medium, (US)
Gloster Javalin aircombat 2, strike rating 1, range long (UK) all weather
Mig 17 air combat 1, strike rating 1, range short, all weather (Poland)
Mig 19 air combat 2, strike rating 1, range short (Poland)
Dassault Mystere IV air combat 1, strike rating 1, range medium (China/France)
TA200 air combat 2, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather (Germany)

3rd Generation Jet fighters and Fighter bombers maintenance .25
Su 22 fighter air combat 5, strike 1, range short, Russia
F101B Voodoo all weather interceptor air combat 5, strike 1, range long (US) out of production
F104 Starfighter interceptor, air combat 5, strike 1, range short (US) out of production
(neither the F101 or F104 are in production any longer)
M107C fighter, air combat 3, strike 1, range medium, (Colombia)
BAC Lightning air combat 5, strike rating 1, range short (UK)
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 5, strike rating 1, range medium (France/China)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 5, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather, (France/China)
Dassault Mirage V air combat 6, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather (France/China)
F8U Crusader, air combat 6, strike 1, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Su-19 Fighter air combat 4, strike rating 1, range medium (Russia)
Yak 25 air combat 5, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (Russia)
F4C/E/F Phantom, air combat 6, strike 2, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Saab J35 Draken air combat 6, strike 1, range medium, all weather interceptor (strike version air combat 11, strike 4) (SU)
Avro Arrow air combat 6, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (US/Canada)
Hal Marut air combat 4, strike 1, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India)
TA202F all weather interceptor air combat 6, strike 1, range short, all weather cost 3, maintenance .5 (Germany)
MIG25 air combat 6, strike 0, range medium, all weather interceptor / intelligence gathering aircraft (Poland / Ukraine)
Avro Arrow II air combat 6, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor US/Canada

IL28 (Hong 5) medium bomber air combat 1, naval strike 1, strike rating 2, range medium (Korea)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 0, strike rating 2, range medium (US/UK)
F105 light bomber, air combat 2, strike rating 2, range medium (US) can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 3)(single engine)
A4 Skyhawk carrier light bomber , air combat 1, strike rating 1, range medium (US)(single engine)
TA183D air combat 2, strike rating 1, range medium (Germany) single engine
Hawker Hunter air combat 2, strike rating 1, range medium (UK) single engine
Su 5 air combat 2, strike rating 1, range short (Russia) single engine
Mig 15bis air combat 2, strike rating 1, range short (Poland) single engine
A5 Vigilante air combat 1, strike 1 (nuclear capable, all weather), range medium, all weather (US) (single engine) out of production

Avro Shackleton air combat 0, naval strike 2, strike rating 1, range long, ASW/all weather capable, (UK) maintenance .5 out of production
P2V Neptune air combat rating 0, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather capable, maritime patrol aircraft (US) out of production, maintenance .5
C133 air combat 0, strike 0, range long, can reorganize up to 3 aircraft and / or 1 IRBM/ICBM missile units maintenance 1
C82 Flying Boxcar air combat 0, can airlift 1 light division or paradrop 1 brigade, range medium, maintenance .25, can refuel by air, out of production, STOL capable (US)
C124 Globemaster air combat 0, can airlift 2 light divisions. cost 4 Range intercontinental, out of production maintenance cost .5 (US)

B52C Stratofortress, air combat 6, strike rating 4, range intercontinental
(US)(nuclear capable), maintenance .5
B52D Stratofortress air combat 7, strike rating 4, range intercontinental (US) maintenance .5
B52G Stratofortress air combat 8, strike rating 5, range intercontinental, , US, cruise missile capable maintenance 1
B58 Hustler air combat 7 strike rating 3, range long, US, maintenance 2


Helicopter Units
tech level 7 Helicopter units cost 2, maintenance .25
(can lift 1 light infantry, alpine, marine light infantry or airborne brigade)

let me ask a question, and I know this is probably stupid, but I want to determine once and for all nuclear building. You spend 72 points over 3 years to get reactors. Do you get bombs in the 3rd year of research, or would you have to develop further. If more development is needed, how much for how long? I know this is stupid and has already been asked, but I want to clarify

Ooh...the shiny new thread. Tag.

Special Note: Air assault units: You buy light infantry brigades, and also helicopter units and their pilots, and pay maintenance for all of them.

Expensive but definitely useful.

Would my 2 non-Paratrooper Special Forces units count as those?

let me ask a question, and I know this is probably stupid, but I want to determine once and for all nuclear building. You spend 72 points over 3 years to get reactors. Do you get bombs in the 3rd year of research, or would you have to develop further. If more development is needed, how much for how long? I know this is stupid and has already been asked, but I want to clarify

Boosted fission capability also automatically gets you nuclear power plants (and vice versa, if you have nuclear power plants, you can build fission and boosted fission weapons without spending for research, although you still have to spend the 72 points for infrastructure).

In other words, if you invest in nuclear power plants, the side effect is to shortcut the nuclear weapons research program. Either way, you have to spend 72 points to get the infrastructure. Plus 24 points a plant (which is actually several plants, but close enough).

Parthini']Would my 2 non-Paratrooper Special Forces units count as those?

they are light infantry, so yes, they can be transported by helicopter. Although you still have to pay for the helicopters and pilots.

tag

Boosted fission capability also automatically gets you nuclear power plants (and vice versa, if you have nuclear power plants, you can build fission and boosted fission weapons without spending for research, although you still have to spend the 72 points for infrastructure).

In other words, if you invest in nuclear power plants, the side effect is to shortcut the nuclear weapons research program. Either way, you have to spend 72 points to get the infrastructure. Plus 24 points a plant (which is actually several plants, but close enough).

So by having the infastructure I have weapons? Well then I have weapons. Damn now I need to change this. I woul still need to pay 24 pts. for 3 years to get nuclear subs right?

So by having the infastructure I have weapons? Well then I have weapons. Damn now I need to change this. I woul still need to pay 24 pts. for 3 years to get nuclear subs right?

yes, you can build atomic (basic fission) weapons. Spend 6 points a year for 5 years, and you can build boosted fission weapons. But hydrogen bombs are extra.

Nuclear powered warships cost 12 points of research (and you don't get them until after you have civilian power plants). That research counts against your strategic weapons research limits.

Regarding nuclear stockpiles:
For now, figure for every year you have had hydrogen bombs, you can have 250 warheads (so the US got them in 1948, and its now 1961, figure the US has at least 3,500 nuclear weapons).

yes, you can build atomic (basic fission) weapons. Spend 6 points a year for 5 years, and you can build boosted fission weapons. But hydrogen bombs are extra.

Nuclear powered warships cost 12 points of research (and you don't get them until after you have civilian power plants). That research counts against your strategic weapons research limits.

Regarding nuclear stockpiles:
For now, figure for every year you have had hydrogen bombs, you can have 250 warheads (so the US got them in 1948, and its now 1961, figure the US has at least 3,500 nuclear weapons).

okay, how many A-bombs do you get a year, and how much to build extra?

Regarding nuclear stockpiles:
For now, figure for every year you have had hydrogen bombs, you can have 250 warheads (so the US got them in 1948, and its now 1961, figure the US has at least 3,500 nuclear weapons).

Is that number a constant? I mean, South Africa has had hydrogen bombs since the mid-50s, and I don't have the space or desire to keep 1500 warheads.

Basically what I want to know is if the number of warheads we have is up to us, and the 250 per year is a limit.

Is that number a constant? I mean, South Africa has had hydrogen bombs since the mid-50s, and I don't have the space or desire to keep 1500 warheads.

Basically what I want to know is if the number of warheads we have is up to us, and the 250 per year is a limit.

that is correct... that is the upper limit.

okay, how many A-bombs do you get a year, and how much to build extra?

A bombs are harder.... 15 a year (require more uranium and plutonium as they are less efficient), after 3 years, numbers can go up to 50 a year.

Since I already have TA 202s attached to my carriers can I just spend an additional 3 points each to make them carrier capable?

Also, is there any cost in making light infantry paratroopers or vice versa?

I unno?

South American Incorporated Army - 17.75pt
1st Specialized Infantry Division "SAHSOG" (Hand-Picked Training) [Air Assault Capable] - 1.25pt
1st Mechanized Division "The Fighting First" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
2nd Mechanized Division "Liberties Boys" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
3rd Mechanized Division "Faithful Third" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
4th Mechanized Division "Fourth Native" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
5th Mechanized Division "Rolling Hell" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
6th Mechanized Division "Breakthrough Division" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
1st Armoured Division "Hammer" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
2nd Armoured Division "Anvil" (Highly Trained) - 1pt
2nd Infantry Division (Highly Trained) - 1.5
- 1st Mountain Brigade
- 2nd Mountain Brigade
3rd Infantry Division (Highly Trained) - 1.5
- 3rd Mountain Brigade
- 4th Mountain Brigade
4th Infantry Division (Highly Trained) - 1.5
- 5th Mountain Brigade
- 6th Mountain Brigade
5th Infantry Division (Highly Trained) - 1.5
- 7th Mountain Brigade
- 8th Mountain Brigade
6th Infantry Division (Highly Trained) - 1.5
- 9th Mountain Brigade
- 10th Mountain Brigade
1st Army
1st Air Artillery Division - .5
2nd Air Artillery Division - .5

South American Incorporated Airforce - 36.75pt
16 Expert Pilots - 8pts
4 Average Pilots - 1pt
8 Jet Fighter Wings (M-121) - 8pts
1 F12 High Altitude High Speed Interceptor - 5pts
1 Intercontinental Jet Bomber Wing (Tu-95) - 2pts
1 Condor High Altitude Strategic Jet Bomber (Mach 3) - 4pt
3 E121 Aircraft - 3pt
1 KC-130 Refueler - .25
4 Transport Helicopters - 1pt
2 Cargo Helicopters - .5pt
100 ICBMs /w MIRV - 4pt
400 AS-14 Kent type missiles
1200 Nuclear Warheads (Boosted Thermonuclear Weapons - 600; Tactical Nuclear Weapons - 400; Hydrogen Weapons - 200)

South American Incorporated Navy - 28.25pt
1st Fleet
1 Heavy Carrier - Heavy Airwing - 2pts
2 Heavy Missile Cruisers - 1pt
2 Light Missile Cruisers - 1pt
2 AA Cruisers - 1pt
5 Destroyers - .5
10 Frigates - 1.25
2 Nuclear Submarines - 1pt
2 Replenishment Ships

2nd Fleet
1 Heavy Carrier - Heavy Airwing - 2pts
2 Heavy Missile Cruisers - 1pt
2 Light Missile Cruisers - 1pt
2 AA Cruisers - 1pt
15 Destroyers - 1.75pt
20 Frigates - 2.5
40 Missile Boats - 1pt

3rd Fleet
1 Heavy Carrier - Heavy Airwing - 2pts
2 Heavy Missile Cruisers - 1pt
2 Light Missile Cruisers - 1pt
2 AA Cruisers - 1pt
15 Destroyers - 1.75pt
20 Frigates - 2.5
40 Missile Boats - 1pt

Parthini']Since I already have TA 202s attached to my carriers can I just spend an additional 3 points each to make them carrier capable?

Also, is there any cost in making light infantry paratroopers or vice versa?

yes... parachute units are a bit more expensive then light infantry units.

just buy carrier air wings (see the naval section)

Army Branch:

Standard Forces:
1st Infantry Corps -Highly trained-

Reserves:
2nd Infantry Corps -Highly trained-
3rd Infantry Corps -Highly trained-
1 Garrison Unit
1 HQ

Armored Forces:
2 Armored Division AMX-30 -Highly trained-
1 Mechanised Artillary Group -Highly trained-

Headquarters:
1 HQ -Highly trained-

Special Ops Forces:
2 Transport Helicopter
1 Airborne Light Brigade -Handpicked-
1 Light Marine Brigade -Handpicked-
2 expert pilots

1 Light infantry Division <French Forign Legion>: put under the command of the UN security Council and maintenance paid for by the US.

National Police:
1 Millitia division


Airforce Branch:

Anti Aircraft Group:
2 Mechanised Flak groups -Highly trained-

Fighter Wings:
-1st Fighter Wing:
4 Dassault Mirage V Fighters

-2nd Fighter Wing:
2 Dassault Mirage V Fighters

Transport Wing:
1 Do 500 Transport

Bomber Wing:
2 Avro Vulcan Bombers
2 Dassault Mirage V Fighters <Escort>

Pilot Pool:
11 Expert pilots

Supply Wing:
1 Helicopter Cargo


Naval Branch:

Main Fleet:
1 CVAN Carrier + Heavy Air Wing:
1 CVN Carrier + Light Air Wing
5 Light Cruisers
5 Destroyer Group +1 ASW Helicopter Group and 1 Expert Pilot
3 Nuclear Attack Submarines

Transport Group:
1 Amphibious assault group

----------------
French Airbase in Basra:
1 Mirage V Fighter
1 Expert Pilot
1 Highly Trained Garrison
1 Reserve HQ

China's Military as of end of 1961:

China Army:

20 Infantry Corps (40 divisions)
10 Armored Corps (20 divisions)
10 Mechanized Flak Corps (20 divisions)
10 Mechanized Artillery Corps (20 divisions)
10 HQ units (can resupply and reorganize 100 corps or 200 divisions)

China Air Force:

24 units of Dassault Mirage V's (2400 fighters)
12 units of Kirin-B Strategic Bombers (600 bombers)
36 active pilot units
6 reserve pilot units

China Naval Force:

10 Nuclear Attack Submarines

SPECIAL NOTE:

All Chinese forces are Highly Trained (+1 to combat values)

--------------------------------------

Military deployments will be posted once I get a good map or the World In Flames map. I haven't been able to find a suitable map for military deployments yet.

I have a few questions that has been nagging at the back of my mind the past couple of weeks.

1. What benefits do regular infantry have over mechanized infantry? I remember that regular infantry could defend cities better than mechanized infantry (the whole urban combat thing). Conversely, what benefits does mechanized infantry have over regular infantry besides having a higher combat value?

2. What about Cruise missiles? I was wondering whether I could build cruise missiles or eventually MIRV cruise missiles? No nuclear weapons on these cruise missiles, just high explosives or armor piercing explosives- stuff to take out ships or armored targets or such. What in-game effects would these cruise missiles have? An one-shot high strike rating weapon (10+ naval or land strike rating)?

3. I need clarification on bio / chemical weapons. In 1961, I finally gain Level 5 bio-chem weapons. Do I have to research for 15 more years to get Level 6 bio-chem weapons? If so, that means I won't get them until 1976, while the US and UK has had these Level 6 weapons since 1945'ish or so. Why the extra-long time period? I mean, why does it take so long to catch up (30+ years) whereas with nuclear technology, China is only a few years behind the US and UK (5 years or so).

4. Are there any possible methods to catch up with any nation in technological development? Or will some nations have a permanent lead in technological development (like the nuclear and bio-chem weapons)?


I'm asking these questions as I'm unsure whether to upgrade my 20 infantry corps to Mechanized or keep them non-mechanized, and whether to start a cruise missile program or not.

Sharina, what missle programs does Japan have that it benefitted from the SCT?

3. I need clarification on bio / chemical weapons. In 1961, I finally gain Level 5 bio-chem weapons. Do I have to research for 15 more years to get Level 6 bio-chem weapons? If so, that means I won't get them until 1976, while the US and UK has had these Level 6 weapons since 1945'ish or so. Why the extra-long time period? I mean, why does it take so long to catch up (30+ years) whereas with nuclear technology, China is only a few years behind the US and UK (5 years or so).

RL Timeline:

VX agents weren't discovered until 1952 in the UK, we unilaterally renounced Chemical and Biological warfare in 1956 so development of the agent wasn't made until it was traded to the US (For nuclear weapon info) in 1958 who went into large scale production of it in 1961. No other nation had been able to effectively synthesise the gas until Russia got it in the 70's, Iraq also apparently produced some quantities in the 80's and Syria has been said to be able to produce it recently. One of the Japanese cults managed to synthesise some using university equipment and personnel and used it in assassination attempts in the 1990's.

A similar program was followed in E20 with Britain developing it shortly after the Third Great War and trading with the USA. The chemical development schedule is based on historical precedents for intensive developments as in the UK, USA or Europe. It follows a rough timeline:

1- Basic agents, allows use of Chlorine, 1910
2- Blister agents, alows use of Sulphur Mustard (Mustard Gas), 1912
3- Pulmonary agents, allows use of Phosgene, 1915
4- Basic Nerve agents, allows use of Sarin, 1920
5- Blood Agents, allows use of Cyanogen Chloride, 1930
6- Advanced nerve agents, allows use of V series agents, 1945

Arriving at VX gas 7 years before RL which was comparable to the tech gap at the time (around 5 years I believe).

China will reach level 6 in 1976 comparable with RL nations who have attempted to develop it from scratch after building up their labs from almost nothing to the infrastructure required for the complex and dangerous synthesis process. Representing China's industrialisation to a high tech nation, considering that China does not have this tech today (though they probably do not have the inclination to develop it either) this seems to be good enough.

4. Are there any possible methods to catch up with any nation in technological development? Or will some nations have a permanent lead in technological development (like the nuclear and bio-chem weapons)?

The European nations had a head start as that was where Chemical weapons originated (in RL and E20) with the US trading in on the deal and other nations starting from stages decided by their tech levels.

Though there is nowhere more efficient to pursue in chemical developments as the tech has progressed as far as RL developments of the modern day (halted by chemical weapons treaties) and there will likely be UN/Geneva regulations coming on the use of chemical weapons in this RP. So China will be catching up on other nations in this field.

Japanese Military Forces

Japanese Fleet

Yokohoma: 1 Light Missile Cruiser, 2 Tech 7.5 Frigate Units, 1 Destroyer Unit,
1 Antiaircraft Cruiser

Japanese Army

1st Army: Hokkaido
4 Parachute Brigades: Sapporro*
2 Helicopter Transportw/ 2 expert pilots: Sapporro
1 Garrison Unit: Sapporro
1 Flak Unit: Sapporro
1 Mountain Brigade: Sapporro*

2nd Army: Honshu
3 Mechanized Infantry Divisions: Kyoto, Yokohoma, Sendai*
1 Armored Divison: Tokyo*
4 Flak Units: Tokyo, Kyoto, Yokohoma, Sendia
4 Garrison Units: Kobe, Nagoya, Hiroshima, Akita
2 Light Infantry Divisions: Hiroshima, Kobe*

3rd Army: Kyushu and Shikuko

1 Flak Unit:Fukuoka
1 Garrison Unit: Fukuoka
1 Mountain Brigade: Kitakyushu*

4th Army: Island Command

1 Light Infantry Division: Kurils*
1 Light Infantry Division: Iwo Jima R&D station*
1 Mountain Brigade: Bonin islands*
1 Mountain brigade: Ryuku Islands*

*=highly trained

Japanese Air Force

2 Mig-25's: Saporro, Yokohoma
3 Mirage III's: Sapporro, Yokohoma, Tokyo

Strategic Defense Command

Stockpile: 45 A-bomb nuclear weapons (back log because I did it wrong)

RL Timeline:

VX agents weren't discovered until 1952 in the UK, we unilaterally renounced Chemical and Biological warfare in 1956 so development of the agent wasn't made until it was traded to the US (For nuclear weapon info) in 1958 who went into large scale production of it in 1961. No other nation had been able to effectively synthesise the gas until Russia got it in the 70's, Iraq also apparently produced some quantities in the 80's and Syria has been said to be able to produce it recently. One of the Japanese cults managed to synthesise some using university equipment and personnel and used it in assassination attempts in the 1990's.

A similar program was followed in E20 with Britain developing it shortly after the Third Great War and trading with the USA. The chemical development schedule is based on historical precedents for intensive developments as in the UK, USA or Europe. It follows a rough timeline:

1- Basic agents, allows use of Chlorine, 1910
2- Blister agents, alows use of Sulphur Mustard (Mustard Gas), 1912
3- Pulmonary agents, allows use of Phosgene, 1915
4- Basic Nerve agents, allows use of Sarin, 1920
5- Blood Agents, allows use of Cyanogen Chloride, 1930
6- Advanced nerve agents, allows use of V series agents, 1945

Arriving at VX gas 7 years before RL which was comparable to the tech gap at the time (around 5 years I believe).

China will reach level 6 in 1976 comparable with RL nations who have attempted to develop it from scratch after building up their labs from almost nothing to the infrastructure required for the complex and dangerous synthesis process. Representing China's industrialisation to a high tech nation, considering that China does not have this tech today (though they probably do not have the inclination to develop it either) this seems to be good enough.



The European nations had a head start as that was where Chemical weapons originated (in RL and E20) with the US trading in on the deal and other nations starting from stages decided by their tech levels.

Though there is nowhere more efficient to pursue in chemical developments as the tech has progressed as far as RL developments of the modern day (halted by chemical weapons treaties) and there will likely be UN/Geneva regulations coming on the use of chemical weapons in this RP. So China will be catching up on other nations in this field.

Thanks for clearing this up, LR. I appreciate it and I'm glad my questions about the bio-chem weapons have been answered.

Now I'd like to know answers to my other questions- Mech Infantry VS regular Infantry, and the cruise missile stuff.

I have one more question though. What kind of benefits does heliocopter gunships have? Do they experience a bonus aganist cerain type of units in a rock-paper-sisscors method? Just wondering, as I know apache gunships can be pretty effective aganist tanks and in rough terrain aganist ground units. So far we have ASW heliocopters, which gives a bonus to ASW operations, but I don't see any bonus with gunships though.

Sharina, what missle programs does Japan have that it benefitted from the SCT?

So far everything up to solid fule missiles and MIRV (Very SIC) if sharina decides to share it.

okay, so I should be able to make Hydrogen weapons and missiles soon

cruise missiles like the Tomahawk are tech level 8 with nuclear warheads, tech level 8.5 with conventional and improved munition warheads. Although some cruise type missiles exist at tech level 7 and tech level 7.5 (Hound Dog and improved Hound Dog), these missiles have only a few hundred mile range at best, and do not carry a worthwhile warhead nor have the accuracy for conventional attacks. They work fine for what they are used for, which is nuclear strikes to weaken defenses to allow bombers to penetrate. (air bases are hard to miss with a nuke, and so are SAM sites).

Mechanized infantry have a higher combat value then conventional or light infantry. Just as importantly, they are more mobile and can keep up with armored units. They are also considerably more expensive then conventional and light infantry.

Egypt will be performing an underwater nuclear test this year to decide whether an underwater nuke could disable a enemy fleet and if the effective radius is too large to use in the eastern Mediterranean and/or Red Sea. This is particuarly important to the Republican Navy, as a successful test could change the government's mind about investing in nuclear-capable ships.

Secret Details (Most will become publically avaliable a few days/weeks)
Test Time: Sometime between Monsoon Seasons (just in case it accidently detonates above water)
Test Location: Just South of the Arabian Sea
Nuke Yield: 20 Kilotons
Test Subjects:
-1 Civilian Fishing Vessel (Right over the nuke)
-2 Civilian Barges (One a mile north of the nuke, one a mile south)
-1 Military Transport Group (5 Miles from nuke)
-1 Heavy Missile Cruiser (10 Miles from nuke)

All test ships are equipped with radiation monitoring devices, heat sensors and all that good stuff. Cameras are also placed on each ship so the film can be used by scientists. An E-1 Tracer will be the intel-gathering aircraft and Arab League nuclear scientists will be present to study the blast and make recommendations. Long-term research on how to the radiation travels through the water, how much escapes into the atmosphere, and EMP effects.

Secretly, the fishing vessel right over the nuke will be populated by a few of President Nassar's enemies that want a religious government. If the vessel survives, the "test subjects" will be examined for the effects of underwater blasts on humans before being rewarded with a bullet to the head. This won't be in the public report.

Reposted from old thread

every nation with a navy bordering the Med will pick up the blast (seismic and sonar detection) as will the US and British (both have fleets in the Med).

Satellites will also pick up the characteristic double flash

cruise missiles like the Tomahawk are tech level 8 with nuclear warheads, tech level 8.5 with conventional and improved munition warheads. Although some cruise type missiles exist at tech level 7 and tech level 7.5 (Hound Dog and improved Hound Dog), these missiles have only a few hundred mile range at best, and do not carry a worthwhile warhead nor have the accuracy for conventional attacks. They work fine for what they are used for, which is nuclear strikes to weaken defenses to allow bombers to penetrate. (air bases are hard to miss with a nuke, and so are SAM sites).

Mechanized infantry have a higher combat value then conventional or light infantry. Just as importantly, they are more mobile and can keep up with armored units. They are also considerably more expensive then conventional and light infantry.

Ahh.

Well, the reason I was asking was because I was wondering if cruise missiles would be viable to use aganist any major invasion force (like D-Day) or large ships like battleships and carriers.

I need to know whether mechanized infantry would be better at defense and protecting cities and major areas, or would regular infantry be better? I remember reading in the old military thread a few months ago that regular infantry would do better in a defense role than mechanized infantry when it comes to urban combat and in jungle or rough terrain. I remember reading "Mechanized infantry suffer combat disadvantages and penalties in urban and rough terrain" and "Regular infantry do not suffer combat disadvantages / penalties for urban and rough terrain". Could someone clear that up for me please?

Finally, any word on the in-game usefulness of heliocopter gunships (Apaches, Hueys, Comanches, etc.)? I don't see any benefits listed on the military list, while ASW heliocopters have a clear benefit (both stated and implied). As I recall, heliocopter gunships can cut down infantry like a scythe, and can be used effectively aganist tanks in an anti-tank role. Yet I see the heliocopter gunships with a combat rating of 2, which means it can't even fight an infantry or armored division (which it should be able to do so). Is there an hidden "rock-paper-scissors" bonus in there, like triple effectiveness aganist infantry and tanks, or automatic disorganize of a division or what?

As it stands, E20 players might as well build fighter planes instead of heliocopters as the fighters have a higher strike rating than heliocopter gunships. I have some difficulty believing that Apaches, Comanches, Hueys, etc. would do worse aganist tanks and infantry than fighter planes, especially that the heliocopters can operate in canyons, urban areas, rough terrain, and "up close and personal" for more effectiveness than fighters flying at 10,000+ feet up in the air.

Again, if these things could be cleared up, especially with infantry and heliocopters, it'd be greatly appreciated.

mechanized infantry has a higher combat value so I'm guessing it's better

mechanized infantry has a higher combat value so I'm guessing it's better

Not necessarily true.

Suppose the "combat penalty" is like 50%- that means the mechanized infantry will lose 1/2 of its strength value in urban or rough terrain, while a regular infantry doesn't. That could mean regular infantry would be able to surpass mechanized infantry in these terrains which China has a lot of (huge cities, the Gobi desert, the Himalayas, the jungles in Southern China, the tundra in Manchuria, etc.)

Not necessarily true.

Suppose the "combat penalty" is like 50%- that means the mechanized infantry will lose 1/2 of its strength value in urban or rough terrain, while a regular infantry doesn't. That could mean regular infantry would be able to surpass mechanized infantry in these terrains which China has a lot of (huge cities, the Gobi desert, the Himalayas, the jungles in Southern China, the tundra in Manchuria, etc.)

true. Maybe you want to go half of each

Unless it was changed, which I would then complain b/c it screws up my plan, Regular Inf do better in Urban, Jungle and Mountainous, while in those places Mechanized get chewed to pieces. However, on a grassy plain, infantry would get rolled over, unless they have armored support.

Basically, I think I know what your trying to get at. You want to be able to standardize you units to make one type of force and whether it should be Mech or Regular. Basically, your armies have to be diverse. You have to have a certain amount of artillery, Flak, Mechanized, Armored, Regular Inf, Special Units, Helicopters, Jets, Bombers, Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates and so on. Without all of those, your enemy will find loopholes in your unbalanced army and totally crush you.

Basically, unless your planning for war, you should make a defensive force made up of garrisons and flak, as well as some infantry and jets. However, a base of bombers, artillery, mechanized and/or armored should be kept to prepare for initial offensives and counterattacks while your main army is built. Unless your an extremely martial country like Germany. Then you have a big army anyways.

Parthini']Unless it was changed, which I would then complain b/c it screws up my plan, Regular Inf do better in Urban, Jungle and Mountainous, while in those places Mechanized get chewed to pieces. However, on a grassy plain, infantry would get rolled over, unless they have armored support.

Basically, I think I know what your trying to get at. You want to be able to standardize you units to make one type of force and whether it should be Mech or Regular. Basically, your armies have to be diverse. You have to have a certain amount of artillery, Flak, Mechanized, Armored, Regular Inf, Special Units, Helicopters, Jets, Bombers, Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates and so on. Without all of those, your enemy will find loopholes in your unbalanced army and totally crush you.

Basically, unless your planning for war, you should make a defensive force made up of garrisons and flak, as well as some infantry and jets. However, a base of bombers, artillery, mechanized and/or armored should be kept to prepare for initial offensives and counterattacks while your main army is built. Unless your an extremely martial country like Germany. Then you have a big army anyways.

I have huge amounts of Armor, Flak, and Artillery.

10 corps of each, to be exact. Most nations can only field maybe 10 to 20 corps at maximum, while I have 50 corps (20 infantry, 10 armor, 10 flak, and 10 artillery).

My airpower is unsurpassed, as I have 24 units of fighters and 12 bombers (2 fighter units per 1 unit of bombers). I'm trying to get GB or LR to tell me what kind of advantages or usefulness heliocopter gunships will have, as the military thread DOES NOT indicate what benefits heliocopter gunships would have in-game. Although I know the gunships are effective aganist infantry and tanks, but the gunships wimpy 2 combat rating as stated in the military post doesn't really show its effectiveness like its supposed to be in RL.

I've only begun building up my Navy with the first 10 nuclear attack subs.

Basically, I have my flak, artillery, and armor / tanks pretty much covered, with a mass of infantry. My airforce will expand again, mainly with support aircraft like AEW, refuelers, and heliocopters (once I get a clear picture of what in-game benefits heliocopter gunships have, if any). My navy will continue to expand in the next decade.

Right now, I need to know "regular infantry OR mechanized infantry", the plausibility of using cruise missiles to destroy any D-Day invasion or naval threats off China's coastlines, and whether heliocopter gunships have in-game benefits (compared to the ASW heliocopters).

----------------------------------

EDIT:

I'm still uncertain whether to upgrade my regular infantry to mechanized, or build 10 more corps of mechanized infantry and leave it at that. The other questions still stand- heliocopters and cruise missiles (to sink carriers, battleships, or napalm-tipped missiles to take out D-Day invasion forces).

maybe because helicopters are relatively new, their combat rating (which perhaps means attacks against ground targets), and newer technology wil make them better

maybe because helicopters are relatively new, their combat rating (which perhaps means attacks against ground targets), and newer technology wil make them better

Hmm. Assuming we have "advanced tech" thing still going on- GB said "lead times are in the decades" which I think means we can build RL 1970-1980 stuff now in 1960's (E20 timeline)... Apaches should be available any E20 year now, and they're killer heliocopter gunships.

the reason is simple regarding helicopter gunships... no one has any idea what they are capable of in this game as they have not yet seen combat. They are however capable of providing direct support without penalty, as can propeller driven aircraft, while jets cannot do so nearly as well. Jets are halved when providing direct support, while propeller and helicopter aircraft are not. They are also cheaper then jets.

This is a game mechanic that SHOULD NOT be apparent to you as a player, so no further explanation will be given until we actually have combat with modern weapons. Remember, the last big war was in 1942, and the the conflict in Arabia didn't involve helicopters either. Your national militaries are going on what they THINK will be valuable and useful, but they really don't know.

At least not yet. Its a common situation in the 20th Century, and yet another reasons why trillions of dollars have been spent on military forces that rarely see action.

Parthini is right regarding having a balanced military by the way.

Sharina... I have 28 fighters. I think that I've surpassed you...

Okay, understood.

I'm going to build the heliocopters and tack on another 10 corps of infantry (mechanized ones) in the next couple of years.

That aside, I'm pretty terrible when it comes to military stuff as some of you may already know from a while ago. So I'm hoping by having at least 10 corps each for every major military branch (armor, 2 kinds of infantry, flak, and artillery), and an enormous air fleet (24 units of fighters, 12 units of bombers, and soon plenty of support air units) then I don't have to worry about much of anything. What I mean by that is that I won't have to bite my nails or go postal figuring out the nuances and details of what benefits each military unit has (past, present, and future).

Basically, I build 10 corps of each major "unit type", and then if war comes, I just throw them at the enemy and hope for the best.

Parthini']Sharina... I have 28 fighters. I think that I've surpassed you...

Heh. Hadn't noticed.

Parthini']Sharina... I have 28 fighters. I think that I've surpassed you...

yea but most are reserve, Sharina has 24 active duty. This will swing in favor of you later on in a fight, but Sharina will have beginning superiority, plus the bombers to eliminate planes on the ground

I'm a little confused on the new Mechanized Corps rule.

1. Is maintainence 3 for ALL kinds of Mechanized Corps (artillery, infantry, flak, armor, etc.) or just for armored and mechanized infantry?

2. Does it cost the same to build ALL kinds of Mechanized Corps (artillery, flak, infantry, etc.) at 14 points apiece?

3. Mechanized Flak Corps needs to be clarified- are they treated as 6 flak brigade (as the rules say that 1 flak brigade can only shoot down 1 air unit a "turn"), meaning a Flak Corps can engage 6 air units a "turn"?

The rules about mechanized corps aren't quite clear as it doesn't specify whether it means ALL types of mechanized corps or just mechanized infantry.

I'm a little confused on the new Mechanized Corps rule.

1. Is maintainence 3 for ALL kinds of Mechanized Corps (artillery, infantry, flak, armor, etc.) or just for armored and mechanized infantry?

2. Does it cost the same to build ALL kinds of Mechanized Corps (artillery, flak, infantry, etc.) at 14 points apiece?

3. Mechanized Flak Corps needs to be clarified- are they treated as 6 flak brigade (as the rules say that 1 flak brigade can only shoot down 1 air unit a "turn"), meaning a Flak Corps can engage 6 air units a "turn"?

The rules about mechanized corps aren't quite clear as it doesn't specify whether it means ALL types of mechanized corps or just mechanized infantry.

It's a little wierd b/c I think your the only person to have Artillery CORPS. Why don't you just break them down to division size?

Parthini']It's a little wierd b/c I think your the only person to have Artillery CORPS. Why don't you just break them down to division size?

Heh. Well, as far as I know, an Artillery Corps = 2 Artillery Divisions. Besides I could always split them up when war comes like place 1 division a "hex" or whatever from the other, I guess.

By the way, I noticed my new Nova type of aircraft isn't listed.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10920843&postcount=408

I'm not sure if I did this correctly with all the new military rules, maintainence tweaks, and everything. But here goes...

China's Military as of end of 1961:

China Army:

20 Infantry Corps (40 divisions) ... maintainence: 60 points
10 Armored Corps (20 divisions) ... maintainence: 30 points
10 Mechanized Flak Corps (20 divisions) ... maintainence: 30 points
10 Mechanized Artillery Corps (20 divisions) ... maintainence: 30 points
10 HQ units (can resupply and reorganize 100 corps or 200 divisions) ... maintainence: 10 points

China Air Force:

24 units of Dassault Mirage V's (2400 fighters) ... maintainence: 24 points
12 units of Kirin-B Strategic Bombers (600 bombers) ... maintainence: 24 points
36 active pilot units (Expert pilots, +1 air combat) ... maintainence: 18 points
6 reserve pilot units ... no maintainence.

China Naval Force:

10 Nuclear Attack Submarines ... maintainence: 5 points

SPECIAL NOTE:

All Chinese forces are Highly Trained (+1 to combat values) and +0.5 maintainence points per unit.

Total "base" maintainence: 231 points
Total maintainence (includes extra maintainence for Highly Trained units): 256 points

------------------------------------

A huge leap from my previous maintainence costs of 141 points prior to the new rule changes. I'm lucky I'm able to still pay the maintainence (which has nearly doubled).

A rather large military it seems. Especcially when taken to my upkeep. *Blinks* Ok, still trying to learn the ropes. Sorry.

every nation with a navy bordering the Med will pick up the blast (seismic and sonar detection) as will the US and British (both have fleets in the Med).

Satellites will also pick up the characteristic double flash

OOC: The test is in the Indian Ocean. I'm using it to see if underwater blasts would be too dangerous in the Mediterranean.

Full Egyptian Military Update

Army
4 Elite Trained Garrison Units
4 Elite Trained Mountain Infantry Brigades
4 Elite Trained Armored Divisions
2 Elite Trained Armored Brigades
2 Elite Trained Flak Brigades
2 HQ’s
1 Elite Trained Light Infantry Divisions
1 Elite Trained Mechanized Divisions

Air Force
4 Elite Pilots
2 Dassault Mirage III

Navy
1 Heavy Carrier Battlegroup
1 Heavy Missile Cruiser
1 Transport Group

Chemical Weapons
7 Distilled Sulfur Mustard Gas
4 Phosgene Gas
8 Sarin Gas

Nuclear Weapons
37 Fission Bombs
12 Boosted Fission Bombs

Other
1 E-1 Tracer (1)
Intelligence Agency (5)
National Air Defense Network (3)
Civil Defense (3)

Secret Projects
Project Amenhotep I (No longer in service)
Purpose: Allow the United Republics the ability to slow or stop an invasion of it's allies from attacks by Saudi Arabia and/or the Turkish Alliance.
Bought Level 4 Chemical Weapons Tech from Germany for 3 points
Bought V-2 Rocket Tech from Germany for 3 points
7 Distilled Sulfur Mustard Gas: Colorless, Odorless, Not usually fatal, (Strategy: Use in the middle of a smoky, fierce battle)
4 Phosgene Gas: Whitish Yellow Haze, Sometimes fatal, (Strategy: Put into enemy’s water supply)
8 Sarin Gas: Colorless, Odorless, Liquid, Usually fatal (Strategy: Put in Binary Chemical artillery shells to fire at enemy)

Operation African Freedom (As of 1962)
Purpose: Allow the United Republics the full ability to defend Africa and the Middle East against a large scale foreign invasion.
Researched nuclear technoligy with Syria
Researching missile technoligy with Syria
37 Fission Bombs
12 Boosted Fission Bombs
1 Nuclear Power Plant in Siwah
AEW Research (Completed)
Boosted Fission Weapons Research (Completed)
1 Shipping Unit for Egypt (Part of the Project as Distraction)
1 Shipping Unit for Sudan (Same as above)

OOC: In my file where I keep my secret project info, it says I've completed AEW Research as part as Project African Freedom. What is AEW research? I can't find it on the military thread and I can't remember what is was for.

Note to self - Only two aircraft but four pilots. Might want to fix that.

OOC: I've got some TA 202s that I need to get rid of. I'll just give them to you if you want.

Parthini']OOC: I've got some TA 202s that I need to get rid of. I'll just give them to you if you want.

Sure. How many?

Heh. Well, as far as I know, an Artillery Corps = 2 Artillery Divisions. Besides I could always split them up when war comes like place 1 division a "hex" or whatever from the other, I guess.

By the way, I noticed my new Nova type of aircraft isn't listed.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10920843&postcount=408

I will add it later, but follow the post as to costs etc and it becomes available in 1962

Koryan I think your troops are now only Highly Trained, unless the Middle-Eastern Wars changed that

OOC: The test is in the Indian Ocean. I'm using it to see if underwater blasts would be too dangerous in the Mediterranean.

the US Navy, South Africans, Indians and probably Australians will pick it up at the very least (all have fleets or forces in the area). Satellites will of course also do so.

I'm a little confused on the new Mechanized Corps rule.

1. Is maintainence 3 for ALL kinds of Mechanized Corps (artillery, infantry, flak, armor, etc.) or just for armored and mechanized infantry?

2. Does it cost the same to build ALL kinds of Mechanized Corps (artillery, flak, infantry, etc.) at 14 points apiece? Or does the 14 points cost only apply to armor corps and mechanized infantry corps?

3. Mechanized Flak Corps needs to be clarified- are they treated as 6 flak brigades (as the rules say that 1 flak brigade can only shoot down 1 air unit a "turn"), meaning a Flak Corps can engage 6 air units a "turn"?

The rules about mechanized corps aren't quite clear as it doesn't specify whether it means ALL types of mechanized corps or just mechanized infantry.

Bump for reply from GB or LR (clarification needed).

Koryan I think your troops are now only Highly Trained, unless the Middle-Eastern Wars changed that

Is there a limit on how high they can be trained? They've been elite for a long time now and considering 1/3 of my country's budget goes to military upkeep, I don't see why they'd downgrade. Besides, the Republican Military is practically on high alert every year (The Arabian Wars, the nuclear confrontation with Turkey, the Congo and now Rwanda).

Koryan I think your troops are now only Highly Trained, unless the Middle-Eastern Wars changed that

yes it would... Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria had large enough percentages of their armies and enough in raw numbers to justify having recent institutional experience.

But it costs another +.25 points per unit

USEAA (Army):

-Central Strategic Army Command: [General Vo Nguyen Giap]
1x HQ Unit (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Highly Trained]

-1st Army Group: [General Tran Van Tra]
1st Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
2nd Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Saigon Military Acadamy)
2x Expert pilots (Saigon Military Acadamy)

-2nd Army Group: [General Sunan Mongkut]
3rd Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Highly Trained]
4th Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Highly Trained]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport unit (Bangkok)
2x Expert pilot (Bangkok)

-3rd Army Group: [General Lon Nol]
1st Mechanized infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Highly Trained]
2nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Highly Trained]
1st Armoured Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
1st Mechanized Artillery Division (Xam Nua) [Highly Trained]

-Saigon Aerial Defence Group:
1x Mechanized Flak group (Saigon) [Highly Trained]

-Bangkok Aerial Defence Group:
1x Mechanized Flak group (Bangkok) [Highly Trained]

-Army Pathfinders [General Van Tin Dungl]
1st Special Mechanised Airborne Battalion (Hanoi) [Hand picked]
1x Ht-80 transport unit (Hanoi)
1x Expert pilot (Hanoi)


UIMC (Marines):

-Central Strategic Marine Command: [General Shui Huan Bai]
1x HQ Unit (Nha Trang) [Highly Trained]

-1st Marine Response Unit: [General Sopheap Phirun]
1st Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
2nd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
1st Marine Mechanized Brigade (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy) [Highly Trained]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy)
2x Expert pilot (Nha Trang Marine Acadamy)

-2nd Marine Response Unit: [General Quy Vien Tu]
3rd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Highly Trained]
4th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Highly Trained]
2nd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Highly Trained]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Louangphrabang)
2x Expert pilot (Louangphrabang)

-3rd Marine Response Unit: [General Vanna Klahan]
5th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Surat Thani) [Highly Trained]
3rd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Highly Trained]
4th Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Highly Trained]
1x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Surat Thani)
1x Expert pilot (Surat Thani)

- 1st Marine Air Support Group: [General Phan Anh]
1st Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Laem Chabang MAFB)
2nd Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Laem Chabang MAFB)
2x Expert pilot (Laem Chabang)

- 2nd Marine Air Support Group: [General Gan Yui Sho]
3rd Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Louangphrabang MAFB)
1x Expert pilot (Louangphrabang MAFB)


-Marine Naval Support Group: [Colonel Tu Heng Jing]
'Jiao' and 'Rong' Commando Assault carrier group (Cam Ranh)
-Jiao class Light Carriers 'Jiao' and 'Rong' and 10 destroyers


USEAAF (Airforce):

-Central Strategic Airforce Command: [General Klahan Dai Sunan]
1x HQ Unit (Vinh) [Highly Trained]

- 1st Air Superiority Group: [General Chu Van Tan]
1st Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage IIIE fighter unit] (Vinh AFB)
2nd Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage IIIE fighter unit] (Da Nang AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Vinh AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Da Nang AFB)

- 2nd Air Superiority Group: [General Hoko Bao An]
3rd Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage IIIE fighter unit] (Nakhon Sawan AFB)
4th Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage IIIE fighter unit] (Songkhla AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Nakhon Sawan AFB)
1x Expert pilot (Songkhla AFB)

-1st Tactical Bombing Group: [General Nyugen An Phong]
1st Tactical Bomber Wing [Hong-6 Light bomber Unit] (Saigon AFB)
2nd Tactical Bomber Wing [Hong-6 Light bomber Unit] (Da Nang AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Saigon AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Da Nang AFB)

-1st Strategic Bombing Group: [General Shi Ko An]
1st Strategic Bomber Wing [CA Kirin-B Strategic Bomber] (Kracheh SAFB)
2nd Strategic Bomber Wing [CA Kirin-B Strategic Bomber] (Khon Kaen SAFB)
1x Expert pilots (Kracheh SAFB)
1x Expert pilots (Khon Kaen SAFB)


-1st Aerial Support Group: [General Heng An]
1st Aerial Support Wing [CA Kirin Lamsong Tanker unit] (Saigon AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Saigon AFB)


-Airforce Transport Divison:
1st Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Saigon AFB)
2nd Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Vinh AFB)
3rd Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Songkhla AFB)
4th Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Nakhon Sawan AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Saigon AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Vinh AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Songkhla AFB)
1x Expert pilots (Nakhon Sawan AFB)



USEAN (Navy):

-South China Sea Fleet: [Admiral Quy An Quang]
'Nyugen Ai QUoc' CVA (Cam Ranh)
Heavy Carrier Air wing (Nyugen Ai Quoc CVA, Cam Ranh Naval Air Station)
'Zhao Tou' Zhao Tou Class Light missile cruiser (Cam Ranh)
'Lan Xang'Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile cruiser (Cam Ranh)
3x Destroyer units (2 vessals)(Cam Ranh)
2x ASW Frigate Unit (2 Vessals) (Cam Ranh)
'Shou' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh)
'Vinh' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh)
'Veng Shi' Veng Shi Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine (Cam Ranh)

-Andaman Sea Fleet: [Admiral Xue Wu Zhou]
'Indochina' CVA (Phuket)
Heavy Carrier Air wing (Indochina CV, Sattahip Naval Air Station)
'Lin Yen' Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile cruiser (Phuket)
'Lac Long Quan' Zhao Tou Class Light missile cruiser (Phuket)
'Au Co' Zhao Tou Class Light missile cruiser (Phuket)
3x Destroyer units (2 vessals)(Phuket)
1x ASW Frigate Unit (2 Vessals) (Phuket)
'Hue' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Phuket)
'Phongsali' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Phuket)
'Vo Ling' Veng Shi Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine (Phuket)

-Northern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Pich Veasna]
1x Patrol / Escort group (Haiphong)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Haiphong)

-Southern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Leon Yann]
1x Patrol / Escort group (Bangkok)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Bangkok)

-Naval Transport Department:
1st Amphibious Assault Group (Cam Ranh)
2nd Amphibious Assault Group (Phuket)


Merchant Navy:

14,000,000 tons of shipping


IIA (Indnochinese Inteligiance Agency):

8,000 Anlysts
Ocean Trawlers
Improved Spy Satellites


Nuclear weapons stockpile:
525 Boosted fission bombs
1,750 Hydrogen Bombs



Haha behold the pwness of my Uber-military of death!
Now I just have to buy the six antiaircraft cruisers and thirtyfour helicopter units

Sure. How many?

4 to be exact. Plus a shitload of TA 200s and DO 337's just sitting in Arabia in Desert Storage.

Sure, I'll take the 202's. Maybe you could sell off the other planes to the smaller AL members (Jordan and a few others don't even have air forces yet).

I'm not sure if I did this correctly with all the new military rules, maintainence tweaks, and everything. But here goes...

China's Military as of end of 1961:

China Army:

20 Infantry Corps (40 divisions) ... maintainence: 60 points
10 Armored Corps (20 divisions) ... maintainence: 30 points
10 Mechanized Flak Corps (20 divisions) ... maintainence: 30 points
10 Mechanized Artillery Corps (20 divisions) ... maintainence: 30 points
10 HQ units (can resupply and reorganize 100 corps or 200 divisions) ... maintainence: 10 points

).

Im pretty sure mech was only for mech infantry.

Korean Armed Forces

Imperial Korean Army Home Defense Force (Held in Reserve, Based all over the nation):

1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 mountain infantry brigade .25 points
1 HQ unit- 1pt (Seoul)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance

Vladivostok Guards Division (based in Vladivostok)-

1 infantry division .25 points

IKA Rapid Reaction Force (Active, based near Inchon and ready to be deployed at any time):
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 HQ Unit-1 pt
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25

Imperial Korean Air Force (Based at Sunan Air Base):

1 Avro Arrow unit- 1pt
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance


IKAF-Korean National Police Agency Foriegn Service Project (based in a classified location outside Seoul)

1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2


IKAF Missile Command (based in classified areas all over the North)-

4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2

IKAF Air Defense Command-

4 SAM/Flak Groups (1 in Vladivostok, 1 in Pusan, 1 in Seoul, 1 in Pyongyang)-1 pt

IKAF Home Defense Corps (Reserve)- Based near Iwon-

1 Dassault Mirage III unit-1 pt
1 average pilot

Imperial Korean Navy Eastern Theater (based in Vladivostok):

1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Attack Submarine Groups- .5 point matenance
1 Coastal Patrol Unit-.25

IKN West Theater (based in Inchon)-

1 Attack Submarine Group- .5
1 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .25
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 22 Points (Estimated)

3 points for Civil Defense

1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25 (to be kept, pending delivery of new Ht-5 helos in 1962)

it's amazing how fast this particular thread always grows... you bunch of warmongers (chuckle).

Still working on the US budget and military.... hopefully I will have it done before I have to do the 1962 US budget and military...sigh. Busy week this week for me

Tag

Im pretty sure mech was only for mech infantry.

I need clarification on maintainence costs for Artillery, Flak, and Regular Infantry corps.

Is it 3 points per corps (for any kind of corps), or is the 3 points per corps ONLY for armor and mechanized infantry?

I have a suggestion for the stats of the Dassault Étendards:

Dassault Étendard IV air combat 11, strike rating 3 (Naval Strike 3), range medium, all weather, Carrier Capable (France/China)

Dassault Étendard II air combat 10, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather, (France/China)

the US Navy, South Africans, Indians and probably Australians will pick it up at the very least (all have fleets or forces in the area). Satellites will of course also do so.

There is a small British Indian Ocean fleet as well (1 heavy missile cruiser, 2 destroyers, all nuclear) though my spy satellites will no doubt pick it up anyway.

I have a suggestion for the stats of the Dassault Étendards:

Dassault Étendard IV air combat 11, strike rating 3 (Naval Strike 3), range medium, all weather, Carrier Capable (France/China)

Dassault Étendard II air combat 10, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather, (France/China)

acceptable... I will post them in the front
although I have to check deployment dates

D'oh. Back to the drawing board with the russian military

The Kingdom of Bulgaria would need to restructure its Military to resemble a smaller version of the British, American, Russian or even Indochinese military, but realises that the military must also be balanced with the small amount of land and population. Forces are to also be ready for any attack from any direction.
Greece's Ambitions of reviving Alexander the Great's famed empire are scaring a lot of people at the Defence Ministry in Sofia into heavy and severe action...

Bulgaria's parliament has authorised the commencement of Bulgaria's answer to National Service. (The program starts at 18 and allows service for 2 manditory years and 4 reserve years. - Women are allowed to volunteer into National Service, but it is not necessary for them to join unless they are in offence against the Crown...)

Germany reminds Bulgaria that under the EEC Charter, all EEC members are required to assist other members in the circumstance of said member being under attack by an outside force. As such, Germany promises that it will militarily assist Bulgaria in the case that it is attacked.

China embarks on an ambitious project within its military.

It has decided to attempt an endeavour to grant women positions within the military in desk, command, maintainence, supply, and combat roles. After careful study of animals, it was noted that female animals tend to fight much more valiantly than males to defend their young. China is interested in seeing if human women would exhibit similiar enhanced qualities in combat and possibly command + control.

This is seen as a major step forward for women's rights, opening new doors and opporunities for women to achieve more equality with men.

Japan will mirror China's move toward better equality among the sexes

A full list of Russian designs available to Bulgaria will be provided to the government from our embassy in Sofia immediately, and advisors can be sent to help structure the forces if necessary. The Russian government would also be willing to partially subisidize costs for equipment made by Russian companies.

(OOC: If you want specifics about forces, I can get a list of tanks and ground vehicles by this weekend. Bulgaria can buy any Russian-made aircraft as well.)

Japan will mirror China's move toward better equality among the sexes

The USEA applauds it's allies moves towards equality, as it has already allowed women to serve in the federal police force, intelligence services, Army, Airforce and recently the marines. The Navy is still regretably unisex though defence department planners are working on this.

(Also the USEA sent the first woman into space, Lieutenant Kanya Lawan- UIMC)


although I have to check deployment dates

Both are 1956 in RL, the Super Entarde and the Super Entarde M which are alot better are deployed in 1974 and 1990 resepectively in RL .

Japan will mirror China's move toward better equality among the sexes

Echoing calls from Women's Groups and Social Democrats inspired by their neighbors (and to possibly gain points in a vital election year), Kim Gu's government announces women may now serve in more rear-line duties (such as matenance, clerical, etc.) and may now serve in active duty with the Air Force and in regular Army units.

Controversially, the Navy and specialist unit's like Prince Wu's Own will not recruit women for active duty, but rather only for expanded rear-line/support duties; this part of the policy was reportedly added to placate hostile elements within the Korea First Party.

EDIT: The Korean National Police Agency, meanwhile, sits back and laughs-like its USEA associates, its allowed women full duties for a while.

Second EDIT: The IKN has announced it will disband the last of its submarine groups, to pave the way for newer models of submarines to be built next year. Possible hints indicate some of these may be nuclear powered, though these are just rumors.

And on another note, Hyundai Cycle has unveiled its new lineup-the Korean Armed Forces adopts Hyundai Cycle's motorbikes, providing a lucrative contract for the fledgling company.

OOC: Uh oh, Feminists! (hides)

IC: Russia, in the process of modernizing its military, has allowed women reserve positions, and the matter of women in support roles is on the floor for debate. The KGB has had women in service since the Union.

OOC: The Union had women in combat roles as early as the revolution. This is nothing new.

Germany thinks women in combat roles is stupid. However, women pilots are common since they are know to have better reflexes, and various staff and support roles.

In preliminary tests, Chinese women and men engaged in various duties ranging from desk jobs to actual live combat conditions. The preliminary reports indicate the following...

Chinese Men:

1. Men were physically stronger on average than women.
2. Men had greater height on average, allowing them a greater field of vision of the battlefield than women.
3. Men were able to sustain more bodily damage given their greater body size.
4. Men are able to undertake heavy duties owing to their higher physical strength and size.
5. Men are more likely to make decisions in situations that require instantenous decisions owing to their aggressiveness.

Chinese Women:

1. Women were more controlled in combat conditions, making logical decisions instead of blindly rushing into suicidal situations.
2. Women were more agile and dexterous than men, allowing for quicker response in combat conditions.
3. Women are somewhat harder to hit owing to their smaller body size.
4. Women had substantially more success at problem solving under pressure.
5. Women are able to complete mechanical repairs and jobs quicker owing to their agility and dexterity.
6. Women are more likely to continue fighting even after suffering substantial injuries especially when children are involved.

Both Genders:

1. Both exhibited similiar levels of intelligence.
2. Both performed roughly at equal proficiency in non-combat duties.
3. Both have shown equal ability to learn and adapt to situations as they arise.

------------------------------------

More simulations and studies is necessary. Based on the preliminary reports, Chinese military officials have determined that the potential for women and men to supplement each other in warfare and military duties is more than substantial. The project is expected to continue, as the preliminary results show great promise.

It is believed that this would be the first time in modern history that women would be in active combat duty, with killing the enemy and such.

OOC: Maybe the first Kapitalizts who have women in combat roles, but the Revolution was for both sexes.

EDIT: Oops never mind

Russia announces that it will begin rebuilding its navy. A fleet to protect Russian assets in the Black Sea began development this year. Full specifics are not released, but they will include a fleet carrier.

Germany announces that it has 2 tech level 7 jet capable fleet carriers for sale.

10 points each or 2 for 17

Parthini']Germany announces that it has 2 tech level 7 jet capable fleet carriers for sale.

10 points each or 2 for 17

Nigeria expresses interest in one of the carriers. Are they nuclear powered?

Nope, but I'm sure they could be upgraded as such. They also come with their 5 tech level 7 destroyer escorts and replenishment ship.

Parthini']Nope, but I'm sure they could be upgraded as such. They also come with their 5 tech level 7 destroyer escorts and replenishment ship.

nuclear powered ships have to be built from scratch

Russia, you would be better served by a sizeable land based naval air force, and a sizeable number of SSKs for operations in the Black Sea, backed by a sizeable force of missile boats, destroyers and a few anti aircraft cruisers.

US military forces 1961

Nuclear forces
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10910541&postcount=3

US air power
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10910544&postcount=4

US naval power
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10910549&postcount=5

US ground forces
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10910557&postcount=6

GB, any word yet on those wargames?

GB, any word yet on those wargames?

going to try and resolve them today or tomorrow as time permits

German Reichswehr (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10975828&postcount=4)

Oceanic Alliance 1960 Wargames (part II)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11079549&postcount=38

major test of air assault divisions, combat use of helicopters in amphibious landing, continental airlift and prepositioned equipment, and largest concentration of armored forces since Third Great War.

US is very satisfied with air assault and plans to get more helicopters and more transport planes.

nuclear powered ships have to be built from scratch

Russia, you would be better served by a sizeable land based naval air force, and a sizeable number of SSKs for operations in the Black Sea, backed by a sizeable force of missile boats, destroyers and a few anti aircraft cruisers.

I was already building some Berievs, and I'll probably back them up with some helicopters.

Revised 1961 naval builds (15 points)
2 ASW frigates
AA Cruiser
5 SSKs (conventional)

EDIT: Seeing the trend for increasing air mobile units, and realizing the role it can play in a nation the size of Russia, plans a similar expansion in coming years.

other lessons from the Alliance Wargames

ooc
in game terms

Attack helicopters have their strike strength doubled when operating ground units. The way it works is this (as an example)
1 mechanized brigade (combat value 3) versus 3 light infantry brigades (base value 1 each) in a city (light infantry are attacking). Both are the same tech and quality, so odds are 1:1. Mechanized strength halved for operating in a city (1.5 points versus 3) so 2:1. 1 AH unit supports attackers, with a strike value of 2 (doubled for providing ground support). This gives the attackers a column shift of 4, giving them a 6:1 versus the mechanized brigade and they will almost certainly win with light losses.

Only attack helicopters and specifically indicated light bombers get this bonus effect for ground support.

They are as follows:
Pucara air units
Skyraider air units
F5 air units
L29 air units
G91 air units
all Helicopter gunship units
all USMC and Royal Marine air units (because of doctrine and because they are part of the same service, a unique circumstance)

However, air units used in this fashion suffer the same negative combat effects as the unit they are supporting. So if the attack is bloodily repulsed, you could lose an air unit.

Additional dedicated ground support aircraft will eventually show up (like the SU25, A10 etc)

Units that are trained for close air support have their strike value halved if used in conventional bombing missions (they aren't trained for that)

Additionally, ground support aircraft can be shot down if the enemy has a flak unit defending and can be shot down by interceptors and fighters

other lessons from the Alliance Wargames

ooc
in game terms

Attack helicopters have their strike strength doubled when operating ground units. The way it works is this (as an example)
1 mechanized brigade (combat value 3) versus 3 light infantry brigades (base value 1 each) in a city (light infantry are attacking). Both are the same tech and quality, so odds are 1:1. Mechanized strength halved for operating in a city (1.5 points versus 3) so 2:1. 1 AH unit supports attackers, with a strike value of 2 (doubled for providing ground support). This gives the attackers a column shift of 4, giving them a 6:1 versus the mechanized brigade and they will almost certainly win with light losses.

Only attack helicopters and specifically indicated light bombers get this bonus effect for ground support.

They are as follows:
Pucara air units
Skyraider air units
F5 air units
L29 air units
G91 air units
all Helicopter gunship units
all USMC and Royal Marine air units (because of doctrine and because they are part of the same service, a unique circumstance)

However, air units used in this fashion suffer the same negative combat effects as the unit they are supporting. So if the attack is bloodily repulsed, you could lose an air unit.

Additional dedicated ground support aircraft will eventually show up (like the SU25, A10 etc)

Units that are trained for close air support have their strike value halved if used in conventional bombing missions (they aren't trained for that)

Additionally, ground support aircraft can be shot down if the enemy has a flak unit defending and can be shot down by interceptors and fighters

GB, I have a few questions- mostly about unit deployments.

1. I have in excess of 50 corps right now in my Chinese army and over 36+ units of aicraft and 10 units of HQ's. Is the limit 2 corps per hex in the Chinese map in WIF (I remember seeing 2 corps in a hex a few times during the civil war and WW-3 in the Asian map)? That may be the only solution as I'll have so many units I could practically "blanket" the whole Chinese map with 1 corps per hex.

The problem is the same for Chinese industry and production. I'm going to have 800+ production centers by 1963 I think, and that's easily 10+ production centers for EVERY hex on the Chinese WIF map. So a conventional listing of production centers would be impossible (the way Germany, SU, India, UK, etc. posts their production centers locations won't work for China).

2. I remember you writing in the main military post that Mechanized Infantry and other Mechanized units act as flak units if they are attacked by air units, correct? If so, what is the purpose of Mechanized Flak if all other Mechanized units act as flak on their own (defense only)?

3. Will Regular Infantry corps have the "flak" ability when defending in cities if they have TOW / Stinger missiles (solid fuel tech needed)? They could fire them from buildings or high rises?

all USMC and Royal Marine air units (because of doctrine and because they are part of the same service, a unique circumstance)


Will my UIMC air units be able to gain this ability somewhere in the future becasue they are used exactly like the USMC and RMC Air units.

Parthini']Germany announces that it has 2 tech level 7 jet capable fleet carriers for sale.

10 points each or 2 for 17

Japan will buy 1, and if Nigeria does not wish to buy the other, then 2

GB, I have a few questions- mostly about unit deployments.

1. I have in excess of 50 corps right now in my Chinese army and over 36+ units of aicraft and 10 units of HQ's. Is the limit 2 corps per hex in the Chinese map in WIF (I remember seeing 2 corps in a hex a few times during the civil war and WW-3 in the Asian map)? That may be the only solution as I'll have so many units I could practically "blanket" the whole Chinese map with 1 corps per hex.

stacking on the Asian and American maps are 4 corps sized units and 2 other units per hex in using the World in Flames map, 2 corps sized units and 1 other ground unit on the European and North African Map


The problem is the same for Chinese industry and production. I'm going to have 800+ production centers by 1963 I think, and that's easily 10+ production centers for EVERY hex on the Chinese WIF map. So a conventional listing of production centers would be impossible (the way Germany, SU, India, UK, etc. posts their production centers locations won't work for China).

10+ production centers is allowed ... limit for each city is the same as the productivity limit of your country. So a city of 5 million for example (Shanghai being a good example) would indeed have up to 10 production centers at tech level 7


2. I remember you writing in the main military post that Mechanized Infantry and other Mechanized units act as flak units if they are attacked by air units, correct? If so, what is the purpose of Mechanized Flak if all other Mechanized units act as flak on their own (defense only)?

mechanized units can only defend themselves, while mechanized flak units can defend themselves and anything else in the hex with them. (or neighboring hex on the European map)


3. Will Regular Infantry corps have the "flak" ability when defending in cities if they have TOW / Stinger missiles (solid fuel tech needed)? They could fire them from buildings or high rises?

no... Flak units are light anti aircraft artillery (machine guns through 57 mm cannons), heavy anti aircraft artillery (75 -120 mm guns), surface to air missile units, radars, and tracking units. Garrison units have those (along with Military police and some infantry), but conventional infantry units do not. Conventional infantry has lots of infantry, and some artillery and anti tank units, but little flak assigned. Too little to even defend itself against attacks by an air unit (which represents not only a bunch of aircraft, but a bunch of aircraft MISSIONS every turn)

Which is why a garrison unit has a lower combat strength then a conventional infantry unit but has acts as a second rate flak unit.

Will my UIMC air units be able to gain this ability somewhere in the future becasue they are used exactly like the USMC and RMC Air units.

yes, once you reach Tech Level 8 (to provide an easy benchmark) or conduct an amphibious landing during a war (which your nation hasn't done yet)

does military exercises count as experience, sp that people can go to elite trained and lower highly trained costs?

Russian Military-Jan. 1963
(ie: includes 1962 builds)

Russia's defense has been divided into three sectors. Western Homeland Command covers an area stretching approximately from Moscow to the western borders (of Poland, the SU, and soon Belarus), Central Homeland command is approximately from Moscow to the Urals, and Eastern Homeland Comand is from the Urals to the Pacific.

Western Homeland Command
Command Groups
-Western Homeland Command (HQ): Moscow
Army
-1st Infantry Corps*: Novgorod
-2nd Infantry Corps*: Minsk (withdrawing to Voronezh with Belarussian independence)
--1st Mechanized Infantry Division (highly trained): Smolensk
--2nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Highly trained): Arkhangel'sk
---5th Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Arkhangel'sk
---6th Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Orel
---1st Paratroop Brigade (Highly trained): Moscow**
Combat Air Wings
-2nd Su-19 Wing (Highly Trained): Voronezh
-1st Yak 25 Wing (Highly trained): Moscow
-2nd Yak 25 Wing (Highly Trained): Novgorod
-1st Yak 28 Wing (Highly Trained): Moscow
Support Air Wings
-1st Air Recon Unit (SIC Recon-configured An-12 planes, as RC-135): Dispersed, based in Moscow
-1st Electronic Support Unit (AEW-configured AN-12s): Moscow, somewhat dispersed
Navy
None, due to illegal occupation of Murmansk and St. Petersburg by Scandanavian Union


Central Homeland Command
Command Groups
-Central Homeland Command (HQ): Volgograd
Army
-3rd Infantry Corps*: Rostov
-4th Infantry Corps (Light)*: Astrakhan
--3rd Mechanized Infantry Division (Highly trained): Saratov
---4th Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Orenburg
---2nd Paratroop Brigade (Highly trained): Saratov**
Combat Air Wings
-3rd Yak 25 Wing (Highly Trained): Volgograd
-2nd Yak 28 Wing (Highly Trained): Rostov
Support Air Wings
1st Maritime Patrol Unit (Be-6): Rostov
Navy
2 ASW Frigates
1 AA Cruiser
5 SSK (Conventional)


Eastern Homeland Command
Command Groups
-Eastern Homeland Command (HQ): Irkutsk
Army
-5th Infantry Corps (Light)*: Chita
-6th Infantry Corps (Light)*: Abakan
--4th Mechanized Infantry Division (highly trained): Yekaterinburg
---1st Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Omsk
---2nd Mountain Brigade (Highly Trained): Irkutsk
---3rd Mountain Brigade (Highly Trained): Khabarovsk
Combat Air Wings
-1st Su-19 Wing (Highly Trained): Chita
Reserve Combat Air Wings
-1st Su-5 Wing: Irkutsk
Support Air Wings
-1st Air Transport Wing (An-12): Khabarovsk
Navy
None

*Attatched to each infantry division is a highly trained armored brigade
**Paratroop Brigades include an An-12 Cub Transport plane unit to support them, kept in the same location

does military exercises count as experience, sp that people can go to elite trained and lower highly trained costs?

at tech level 8 specific rules will be provided for things like National Training Centers (Fort Irwin in real life for example).

Until then, no, not really. They do provide me (as a war mod) the opportunity to show the players how warfare evolves over time though.

Historically, lots of nations draw really faulty conclusions from wargames because of the assumptions they have going in.

at tech level 8 specific rules will be provided for things like National Training Centers (Fort Irwin in real life for example).

Until then, no, not really. They do provide me (as a war mod) the opportunity to show the players how warfare evolves over time though.

Historically, lots of nations draw really faulty conclusions from wargames because of the assumptions they have going in.

or change the way the wargames went. I seem to rember Billy Mitchell sinking the entire battleship fleet in wargames but the naval officers made them change it to make a Naval win. Which is probably why only Air Force officers command aircraft carriers in the USN, or at least that was common doctrine

stacking on the Asian and American maps are 4 corps sized units and 2 other units per hex in using the World in Flames map, 2 corps sized units and 1 other ground unit on the European and North African Map

Works for me.

10+ production centers is allowed ... limit for each city is the same as the productivity limit of your country. So a city of 5 million for example (Shanghai being a good example) would indeed have up to 10 production centers at tech level 7

That could still be a problem to conventionally state where my production centers are.

To put it simply, I'd need 80 Shanghai sized cities (at 10 production centers each), or 80+ hexes with 10 production centers on each of them to accurately describe where all my 800+ production centers are located. This would be quite problematic. Using the current system, pretty much EVERY hex in the Chinese WIF map will have 5 - 10+ production centers because of all the super-suburbia and such around the major cities, as well as China's extreme population (600 million).

To put it into another perpsective, I need 120 hexes minimum with 5 million population each (or 5 - 10 production centers minimum) to denote China's whole population and "factories" locations.

Thus, I think the only way to resolve this is to be abstract, saying every hex in the Chinese WIF map has 5 - 10 production centers and minimum of 5 million population each.

mechanized units can only defend themselves, while mechanized flak units can defend themselves and anything else in the hex with them. (or neighboring hex on the European map)

Ahh.

This raises an interesting question. Suppose I had a Mechanized Infantry, Mechanized Artillery, and Mechanized Flak in the same hex (China's map cap is 4 corps per hex). Will all of these flak defenses stack up (3 mechanized units flak fighting off attacking planes together), given that mechanized units have their own flak (defense only) or will the Mechanized Flak override and defend each of these units individually, thus defending more than once in a turn?

no... Flak units are light anti aircraft artillery (machine guns through 57 mm cannons), heavy anti aircraft artillery (75 -120 mm guns), surface to air missile units, radars, and tracking units. Garrison units have those (along with Military police and some infantry), but conventional infantry units do not. Conventional infantry has lots of infantry, and some artillery and anti tank units, but little flak assigned. Too little to even defend itself against attacks by an air unit (which represents not only a bunch of aircraft, but a bunch of aircraft MISSIONS every turn)

Which is why a garrison unit has a lower combat strength then a conventional infantry unit but has acts as a second rate flak unit.

Gotcha.

I was asking because I saw on the thread earlier that once a nation gains Solid Fuel Technology, it can build TOW's and Stinger AAA missiles (man portable AAA missile launchers that can take down aircraft). So wouldn't infantry units be equipped with portable Stinger AAA missiles then?

or change the way the wargames went. I seem to rember Billy Mitchell sinking the entire battleship fleet in wargames but the naval officers made them change it to make a Naval win. Which is probably why only Air Force officers command aircraft carriers in the USN, or at least that was common doctrine

Japan during World War II had two very infamous war games. The most famous was while preparing for the battle of Midway, the umpire changed the die rolls after the side playing the Americans sank 4 Japanese carriers (a bit embarrassing later when the actual Americans did sink 4 Japanese carriers).

Another incident was after the repatriation of their diplomatic staff, the Japanese had them play the Americans in a strategic level wargame. Using low end estimates of American capabilities (too low actually), the Japanese playing the Americans won the game in about the same period of time the real Americans actually won the war. The Japanese Navy hushed up the wargames and made the results Top Secret. This occured in 1943.

Korean Armed Forces

Imperial Korean Army Home Defense Force (Held in Reserve, Based all over the nation):

1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 mountain infantry brigade .25 points
1 HQ unit- 1pt (Seoul)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance

Vladivostok Guards Division (based in Vladivostok)-

1 infantry division .25 points

IKA Rapid Reaction Force (Active, based near Inchon and ready to be deployed at any time):
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 HQ Unit-1 pt
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25

Imperial Korean Air Force (Based at Sunan Air Base):

1 Avro Arrow unit- 1pt
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance


IKAF-Korean National Police Agency Foriegn Service Project (based in a classified location outside Seoul)

1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2


IKAF Missile Command (based in classified areas all over the North)-

4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2

IKAF Air Defense Command-

4 SAM/Flak Groups (1 in Vladivostok, 1 in Pusan, 1 in Seoul, 1 in Pyongyang)-1 pt

IKAF Home Defense Corps (Reserve)- Based near Iwon-

1 Dassault Mirage III unit-1 pt
1 average pilot

Imperial Korean Navy Eastern Theater (based in Vladivostok):

1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Attack Submarine Groups- .5 point matenance
1 Coastal Patrol Unit-.25

IKN West Theater (based in Inchon)-

1 Attack Submarine Group- .5
1 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .25
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 22 Points (Estimated)

3 points for Civil Defense

1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25 (to be kept, pending delivery of new Ht-5 helos in 1962)

How does my military look, GB?

That could still be a problem to conventionally state where my production centers are.

To put it simply, I'd need 80 Shanghai sized cities (at 10 production centers each), or 80+ hexes with 10 production centers on each of them to accurately describe where all my 800+ production centers are located. This would be quite problematic. Using the current system, pretty much EVERY hex in the Chinese WIF map will have 5 - 10+ production centers because of all the super-suburbia and such around the major cities, as well as China's extreme population (600 million).

To put it into another perpsective, I need 120 hexes minimum with 5 million population each (or 5 - 10 production centers minimum) to denote China's whole population and "factories" locations.

Thus, I think the only way to resolve this is to be abstract, saying every hex in the Chinese WIF map has 5 - 10 production centers and minimum of 5 million population each.

remember that population density is very high in parts of China. Some of your coastal hexes have up to 50 million people in them. While some of your mountainous areas have only a couple of million. Just use a real map and use that to determine where your production centers are. The WIF map is just a guideline really at this point.


This raises an interesting question. Suppose I had a Mechanized Infantry, Mechanized Artillery, and Mechanized Flak in the same hex (China's map cap is 4 corps per hex). Will all of these flak defenses stack up (3 mechanized units flak fighting off attacking planes together), given that mechanized units have their own flak (defense only) or will the Mechanized Flak override and defend each of these units individually, thus defending more than once in a turn?

they would stack in that particular case as aircraft attack all of the units in the hex.


I was asking because I saw on the thread earlier that once a nation gains Solid Fuel Technology, it can build TOW's and Stinger AAA missiles (man portable AAA missile launchers that can take down aircraft). So wouldn't infantry units be equipped with portable Stinger AAA missiles then?

effective man portable missiles dont show up until tech level 8... rules were adjusted to reflect accuracy and realism in this particular case.

remember that population density is very high in parts of China. Some of your coastal hexes have up to 50 million people in them. While some of your mountainous areas have only a couple of million. Just use a real map and use that to determine where your production centers are. The WIF map is just a guideline really at this point.

All right.

I'll try to find a good map to deploy my units in, and state the general location of my industry.

they would stack in that particular case as aircraft attack all of the units in the hex.

Thanks for clearing that up.

effective man portable missiles dont show up until tech level 8... rules were adjusted to reflect accuracy and realism in this particular case.

So does this mean regular infantry will gain "flak" / "AAA defense" starting in tech level 8 onwards?

Like GB said, the Chinese Coastline is the most densly populated area in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if China and India both had cities with 50 Production centers.

While it may not be as tactically sound as having all of your production centers dispersed, it is definately not realistic or accurate. Really, you should have no more than 1/5th of your factories not on the coast. That's how the population is, anyways.

Uh, what were the results of my underwater nuclear test? Are nukes reasonable for use in the Mediterranean without causing turning the fish radioactive or causing kids in Greece to have three arms and two heads? Also, could it wipe out a large enemy fleet?

Uh, what were the results of my underwater nuclear test? Are nukes reasonable for use in the Mediterranean without causing turning the fish radioactive or causing kids in Greece to have three arms and two heads? Also, could it wipe out a large enemy fleet?

Nuclear testing is successful without serious ecologoical damage (the US has conducted a number of water tests, as have other nations).

Nuclear weapons probably won't take out a fleet, but could take out important elements of it

Russia funds the following for the new Belarussian Defense Forces:
-2 Light Infantry Divisions
-Transport Helicopter and Pilot
-Yak 25 (used) and pilot

Russian Military-Jan. 1963
(ie: includes 1962 builds)

Russia's defense has been divided into three sectors. Western Homeland Command covers an area stretching approximately from Moscow to the western borders (of Poland, the SU, and soon Belarus), Central Homeland command is approximately from Moscow to the Urals, and Eastern Homeland Comand is from the Urals to the Pacific.

Western Homeland Command
Command Groups
-Western Homeland Command (HQ): Moscow
Army
-1st Infantry Corps*: Novgorod
-2nd Infantry Corps*: Voronezh
--1st Mechanized Infantry Division (highly trained): Smolensk
--2nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Highly trained): Arkhangel'sk
---5th Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Arkhangel'sk
---6th Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Orel
---1st Paratroop Brigade (Highly trained): Moscow**
Combat Air Wings
-2nd Su-19 Wing (Highly Trained): Voronezh
-1st Yak 25 Wing (Highly trained): Moscow
-2nd Yak 25 Wing (Highly Trained): Novgorod
-1st Yak 28 Wing (Highly Trained): Moscow
Support Air Wings
-1st Air Recon Unit (SIC Recon-configured An-12 planes, as RC-135): Dispersed, based in Moscow
-1st Electronic Support Unit (AEW-configured AN-12s): Moscow, somewhat dispersed
Navy
None, due to illegal occupation of Murmansk and St. Petersburg by Scandanavian Union


Central Homeland Command
Command Groups
-Central Homeland Command (HQ): Volgograd
Army
-3rd Infantry Corps*: Rostov
-4th Infantry Corps (Light)*: Astrakhan
--3rd Mechanized Infantry Division (Highly trained): Saratov
---4th Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Orenburg
---2nd Paratroop Brigade (Highly trained): Saratov**
Combat Air Wings
-3rd Yak 25 Wing (Highly Trained): Volgograd
-2nd Yak 28 Wing (Highly Trained): Rostov
Support Air Wings
1st Maritime Patrol Unit (Be-6): Rostov
Navy
2 ASW Frigates
1 AA Cruiser
5 SSK (Conventional)


Eastern Homeland Command
Command Groups
-Eastern Homeland Command (HQ): Irkutsk
Army
-5th Infantry Corps (Light)*: Chita
-6th Infantry Corps (Light)*: Abakan
--4th Mechanized Infantry Division (highly trained): Yekaterinburg
---1st Mountain Brigade (Highly trained): Omsk
---2nd Mountain Brigade (Highly Trained): Irkutsk
---3rd Mountain Brigade (Highly Trained): Khabarovsk
Combat Air Wings
-1st Su-19 Wing (Highly Trained): Chita
Reserve Combat Air Wings
-1st Su-5 Wing: Irkutsk
Support Air Wings
-1st Air Transport Wing (An-12): Khabarovsk
Navy
None

*Attatched to each infantry division is a highly trained armored brigade
**Paratroop Brigades include an An-12 Cub Transport plane unit to support them, kept in the same location
Updated for 1962 builds

Guerilla Warfare and Subversion
Costs: 1 point will create 1 guerilla light infantry brigade. maintenance is .25 a year. Limit is 1 guerilla unit per 10 million people.

Guerilla units do not conduct conventional military operations, they are simply a placeholder units.

To create a guerilla force in someone elses country requires:
1. A realistic reason for them to exist (ethnic issues, political differences etc)
2. An intelligence service
3. Either a border with that country, or 5 points to create a covert supply network.

Guerilla forces will not overthrow a government unless social services are at level 1 or less, and the economy is shrinking. Guerilla forces inflict 1 point of economic damage each year for each guerilla light infantry brigade operating.

To destroy a guerilla brigade, the defending nation must be able to get 10 brigades worth of military forces into the area they are operating. Light infantry brigades count double (as 2 brigades).
Divisions - 3 brigades
corps - 6 brigades
Garrison units reduce the economic damage by half.
Bomber units count as ground units for this purpose, but they cause 1 economic point of damage for each one used.

The defending nation has an excellent chance of determining that outside support is being provided. It also has an excellent chance of determining who is responsible.

Terrorist attacks are common with guerilla forces.

Guerilla Warfare and Subversion

<snip>

Oh, boy. This will be fun.

Great timing with the new rules, should be interesting.

The South China Sea fleet begins deployment to the Bearing Sea for 'cold weather exercises'. Both the United States and the Russian Federation are notified in advance.


-South China Sea Fleet: [Admiral Quy An Quang]

'Nyugen Ai Quoc' CVA (Cam Ranh) [T-7.5]
Heavy Carrier Air wing (Nyugen Ai Quoc CVA, Cam Ranh Naval Air Station)
Jiao class CL 'Jiao' [Tech-7.5]
Jiao Class CL 'Rong' [Tech-7.5]
-2x ASW air wings

'Zhao Tou' Zhao Tou Class Light missile cruiser (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]
'Lan Xang'Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile cruiser (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]

3x Destroyer units (2 vessals)(Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]
2x ASW Frigate units (2 Vessals) (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]

'Shou' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7]
'Vinh' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7]
'Veng Shi' Veng Shi Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]


In other news due to the increasing tensions world wide and particularly in Asia the USEAF and its strategic bomber wings are put on increased readiness

Finally posted my military deployments.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11083812&postcount=4

So what all do I need to pay for to aid the rebels in Yemen and Saddam and his crew in the Arab Federation?

1. If I bought them mountain infantry, it would be like me giving them Egyptian equipment and my commanders training them, right?

2. For the guerilla units, would I pay for them or would they automatically be created for the rebels since this is a historical event? (I'm just making sure they don't lose)

3. I count as being Yemen's neighbor, right? And do I have to create a covert supply network? Its not like Egyptian support would be a secret anyway.

The South China Sea fleet begins deployment to the Bearing Sea for 'cold weather exercises'. Both the United States and the Russian Federation are notified in advance.


-South China Sea Fleet: [Admiral Quy An Quang]

'Nyugen Ai Quoc' CVA (Cam Ranh) [T-7.5]
Heavy Carrier Air wing (Nyugen Ai Quoc CVA, Cam Ranh Naval Air Station)

'Zhao Tou' Zhao Tou Class Light missile cruiser (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]
'Lan Xang'Lan Xang Class Heavy Missile cruiser (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]

3x Destroyer units (2 vessals)(Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]
2x ASW Frigate units (2 Vessals) (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]

'Shou' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7]
'Vinh' Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7]
'Veng Shi' Veng Shi Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine (Cam Ranh) [Tech-7.5]


In other news due to the increasing tensions world wide and particularly in Asia the USEAF and its strategic bomber wings are put on increased readiness


The US will send 6 of its new Sturgeon class SSNs to shadow the Chinese fleet, and US aircraft out of the Aleutians will also monitor it closely (with Neptune patrol planes and RC135 Signet planes). A reasonable distance will be maintained.

So what all do I need to pay for to aid the rebels in Yemen and Saddam and his crew in the Arab Federation?

1. If I bought them mountain infantry, it would be like me giving them Egyptian equipment and my commanders training them, right?

2. For the guerilla units, would I pay for them or would they automatically be created for the rebels since this is a historical event? (I'm just making sure they don't lose)

3. I count as being Yemen's neighbor, right? And do I have to create a covert supply network? Its not like Egyptian support would be a secret anyway.

1. yes you would be
2. 1 free, rest must be armed by someone
3. Pay a supply network, as there are significant geographical features involved (really harsh deserts and / or the Red Sea)

The US will send 6 of its new Sturgeon class SSNs to shadow the Chinese fleet, and US aircraft out of the Aleutians will also monitor it closely (with Neptune patrol planes and RC135 Signet planes). A reasonable distance will be maintained.

I forgot to add the other parts of the fleet that would be going.

Jiao class CL 'Jiao' [Tech-7.5]
Jiao Class CL 'Rong' [Tech-7.5]
-2x ASW air wings


[SIC]:
Indochinese Intelligence liason officers are put onboard the ships with orders to have the fleet intercept and turn back any transports on air or sea that are suspected of transporting nuclear weapons or ballistic missiles.
If said transports do not turn back permission is given to first fire a warning shot and then to terminate them.

Guerilla Warfare and Subversion
Costs: 1 point will create 1 guerilla light infantry brigade. maintenance is .25 a year. Limit is 1 guerilla unit per 10 million people.

Guerilla units do not conduct conventional military operations, they are simply a placeholder units.

To create a guerilla force in someone elses country requires:
1. A realistic reason for them to exist (ethnic issues, political differences etc)
2. An intelligence service
3. Either a border with that country, or 5 points to create a covert supply network.

Guerilla forces will not overthrow a government unless social services are at level 1 or less, and the economy is shrinking. Guerilla forces inflict 1 point of economic damage each year for each guerilla light infantry brigade operating.

To destroy a guerilla brigade, the defending nation must be able to get 10 brigades worth of military forces into the area they are operating. Light infantry brigades count double (as 2 brigades).
Divisions - 3 brigades
corps - 6 brigades
Garrison units reduce the economic damage by half.
Bomber units count as ground units for this purpose, but they cause 1 economic point of damage for each one used.

The defending nation has an excellent chance of determining that outside support is being provided. It also has an excellent chance of determining who is responsible.

Terrorist attacks are common with guerilla forces.

go me living on an island!
and GB, you're shadowing the USEA fleet, not Chinese

go me living on an island!
and GB, you're shadowing the USEA fleet, not Chinese

not exactly... the Chinese SSN force sortied as well, so it too is being shadowed.

6 US SSNs from the Atlantic are sent to the Pacific via the Arctic Ocean and Bering Strait

(giving the USN 17 SSNs in the North Pacific within 4 weeks, leaving 14 to continue routine patrols in the North Atlantic)

What Defcons mean for nuclear forces
1. Peacetime -- normal operations. Bombers on bases, with a smal percent on alert duty (on the ground but ready for take off in 10 minutes). 1 out of every 4 SSBNs on patrol, 10% of the missile force available for immediate launch (liquid fueled), 75% of solid fueled force ready to go.
2. Alert / Peacetime -- 10% of bomber force in the air at any one time, 20% on alert duty, remainder on 30 minute alert. 2 out of 4 SSBNs on patrol, 50% of navy at sea, 20% of liquid fueled missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled rocket force ready to launch. Active duty military on alert (leaves cancelled or reduced), reserves alerted for possible call up. Air defenses on alert and ready to shoot.
3. Defcon 3 Alert / Mobilization alert -- all active duty military leaves cancelled. Reserves recalled to active duty, 75% of Navy at sea (including missile subs), Air defenses on full wartime footing, 30% of liquid fuel missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled missiles ready to launch. All measures at Defcon 1 and 2 taken
4. Defcon 4 War Alert -- as above, plus 90% of Navy at sea, nuclear armed aircraft and interceptors disperse to alert bases to complicate targetting, ground forces are partially dispersed, National Government (if civil defense has been spent) disperses
5. Nuclear War

What Defcons mean for nuclear forces
1. Peacetime -- normal operations. Bombers on bases, with a smal percent on alert duty (on the ground but ready for take off in 10 minutes). 1 out of every 4 SSBNs on patrol, 10% of the missile force available for immediate launch (liquid fueled), 75% of solid fueled force ready to go.
2. Alert / Peacetime -- 10% of bomber force in the air at any one time, 20% on alert duty, remainder on 30 minute alert. 2 out of 4 SSBNs on patrol, 50% of navy at sea, 20% of liquid fueled missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled rocket force ready to launch. Active duty military on alert (leaves cancelled or reduced), reserves alerted for possible call up. Air defenses on alert and ready to shoot.
3. Defcon 3 Alert / Mobilization alert -- all active duty military leaves cancelled. Reserves recalled to active duty, 75% of Navy at sea (including missile subs), Air defenses on full wartime footing, 30% of liquid fuel missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled missiles ready to launch. All measures at Defcon 1 and 2 taken
4. Defcon 4 War Alert -- as above, plus 90% of Navy at sea, nuclear armed aircraft and interceptors disperse to alert bases to complicate targetting, ground forces are partially dispersed, National Government (if civil defense has been spent) disperses
5. Nuclear War


Isn't it the other way around with 1 being nuclear war and 5 being peactime?

Anyway the USEA is at DEFCON 3

What Defcons mean for nuclear forces
1. Peacetime -- normal operations. Bombers on bases, with a smal percent on alert duty (on the ground but ready for take off in 10 minutes). 1 out of every 4 SSBNs on patrol, 10% of the missile force available for immediate launch (liquid fueled), 75% of solid fueled force ready to go.
2. Alert / Peacetime -- 10% of bomber force in the air at any one time, 20% on alert duty, remainder on 30 minute alert. 2 out of 4 SSBNs on patrol, 50% of navy at sea, 20% of liquid fueled missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled rocket force ready to launch. Active duty military on alert (leaves cancelled or reduced), reserves alerted for possible call up. Air defenses on alert and ready to shoot.
3. Defcon 3 Alert / Mobilization alert -- all active duty military leaves cancelled. Reserves recalled to active duty, 75% of Navy at sea (including missile subs), Air defenses on full wartime footing, 30% of liquid fuel missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled missiles ready to launch. All measures at Defcon 1 and 2 taken
4. Defcon 4 War Alert -- as above, plus 90% of Navy at sea, nuclear armed aircraft and interceptors disperse to alert bases to complicate targetting, ground forces are partially dispersed, National Government (if civil defense has been spent) disperses
5. Nuclear War

Would it work if China had a different "alert system" than Defcon? I'm thinking if implementing my own Defcon, but not quite Defcon (so not to rip-off the USA and also to give a Chinese-unique flavor).

Would it work if China had a different "alert system" than Defcon? I'm thinking if implementing my own Defcon, but not quite Defcon (so not to rip-off the USA and also to give a Chinese-unique flavor).

I have levels 1-5, but I haven't really defined it well, I'm supposing level 5 is a preperation for nuclear war

Korea just has Normalcy, Alert, and High Alert. We're still Normal, though with the way the s**t's going, I might go to Alert mode soon.

Also, what of the other Ilyushin designs, such as their transport and ASW/Early Warning Craft?

Secretly, new Russian spy satellites and SIGINT An-12s are ordered to watch what is going on carefully. Eastern Homeland Command's Air Force Units are put on increased alert, also secretly.

Korea just has Normalcy, Alert, and High Alert. We're still Normal, though with the way the s**t's going, I might go to Alert mode soon.

Also, what of the other Ilyushin designs, such as their transport and ASW/Early Warning Craft?

China can produce AEW units which are equal in quality to the American ones. We can also produce ASW heliocopters and transports.

China's Nova planes come in a wide variety.

1. Tankers (refuel 2 bomber units or 4 fighters or 4 other air units)
2. AEW (equal to E-121 in quality)
3. Transport (can transport a mechanized brigade or other types of brigades)

I'm going to redo my military placements, because I like Elephantum's way of doing it

Japanese Military Forces


Japanese Fleet


Yokohoma: 1 Light Missile Cruiser, 1 Destroyer Unit,
1 Antiaircraft Cruiser
Air Support: 1 Mig-25, 1 Mirage III, 2 elite pilots

Japanese Army


Army of Hokkaido

4 Parachute Brigades: Sapporro*
2 Helicopter Transportw/ 2 expert pilots: Sapporro
1 Garrison Unit: Sapporro
1 Flak Unit: Sapporro
1 Mountain Brigade: Sapporro*
Air Support: 1 Mig-25, 1 Mirage III, 2 elite pilots, 2 Helicopter Transports, 2 expert pilots (expert pilots with transports)

Army of Honshu

3 Mechanized Infantry Divisions: Kyoto, Yokohoma, Sendai*
1 Armored Divison: Tokyo*
4 Flak Units: Tokyo, Kyoto, Yokohoma, Sendia
4 Garrison Units: Kobe, Nagoya, Hiroshima, Akita
2 Light Infantry Divisions: Hiroshima, Kobe*
Air Support: 1 Mirage III, elite pilot

Army of Kyushu and Shikoku

1 Flak Unit:Fukuoka
1 Garrison Unit: Fukuoka
1 Mountain Brigade: Kitakyushu*
Air Support: none

Island Command

1 Light Infantry Division: Kurils*
1 Light Infantry Division: Iwo Jima R&D station*
1 Mountain Brigade: Bonin islands*
1 Mountain brigade: Ryuku Islands*
Air Support: none

*=highly trained


Strategic Command


Stockpile: 45 A-bomb nuclear weapons (back log because I did it wrong)

What Defcons mean for nuclear forces
1. Peacetime -- normal operations. Bombers on bases, with a smal percent on alert duty (on the ground but ready for take off in 10 minutes). 1 out of every 4 SSBNs on patrol, 10% of the missile force available for immediate launch (liquid fueled), 75% of solid fueled force ready to go.
2. Alert / Peacetime -- 10% of bomber force in the air at any one time, 20% on alert duty, remainder on 30 minute alert. 2 out of 4 SSBNs on patrol, 50% of navy at sea, 20% of liquid fueled missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled rocket force ready to launch. Active duty military on alert (leaves cancelled or reduced), reserves alerted for possible call up. Air defenses on alert and ready to shoot.
3. Defcon 3 Alert / Mobilization alert -- all active duty military leaves cancelled. Reserves recalled to active duty, 75% of Navy at sea (including missile subs), Air defenses on full wartime footing, 30% of liquid fuel missiles ready to launch, 90% of solid fueled missiles ready to launch. All measures at Defcon 1 and 2 taken
4. Defcon 4 War Alert -- as above, plus 90% of Navy at sea, nuclear armed aircraft and interceptors disperse to alert bases to complicate targetting, ground forces are partially dispersed, National Government (if civil defense has been spent) disperses
5. Nuclear War


everyone please use this system for consistancy.... conventional forces could have a different system
1 - 2 Peacetime
3 Mobilization
4. Conventional War
5. Full scale conventional war (national effort etc)

Siberian Crisis thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11087286#post11087286

if war breaks out, I want forces for whoever is involved in that thread please so that it can be resolved without driving me insane

Assume at this point, because of the fact both sides have access to satellite and aerial recon, and will probably have broken significant portions of each others codes, that neither side is capable of carry out a strategic surprise ground assault on the other. Air and missile strikes are different, and could be carried out, although since both sides have spy and early warning satellites, they will be able to react to some extent.

Russia and the US have Civil Defense, but not sure about the SCT nations. If you didn't fund it in 1961, you don't have it at this point.

I have informed Malkyer and Lesser Ribenia of my plans as the US player. Should they be needed. Nuclear combat and full scale conventional fighting will be resolved by me. If it is lower scale guerilla war, then Lesser Ribenia will handle it.

Even if nuclear weapons are used, it will not necessarily be armegeddon. It isn't like our universe where the US has SIOP that tried to use every single warhead it had in the first 12 hours. The US for one has a plan of graduated and proportional response. Should it use them at all. However, the key thing about deterrence is ensuring that the other side doesn't know for sure whether or not the US will use them or not.

The SADF is currently at DefCon 2 (Alert/Peacetime), and will fully mobilize (stage 3) if the situation continues to deteriorate.

everyone please use this system for consistancy.... conventional forces could have a different system
1 - 2 Peacetime
3 Mobilization
4. Conventional War
5. Full scale conventional war (national effort etc)

Gotcha.

China's status will be (DEFCON approximation)...

Conventional Condition: 2

Nuclear Condition: 2

French Conventional Millitary is at Defcon 2

Britain uses the JTAC Threat Awareness System which translates roughly to DEFCON as follows:

JTAC = DEFCON

Critical = 5
Severe Defined = 4 (threat and target known)
Severe General = 4 (threat known but not target)
Substantial = 3
Moderate = upper 2
Low = lower 2
Negligible = 1

Britain has recently upgraded to Moderate threat alert status.

Siberian Crisis thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11087286#post11087286

if war breaks out, I want forces for whoever is involved in that thread please so that it can be resolved without driving me insane

Assume at this point, because of the fact both sides have access to satellite and aerial recon, and will probably have broken significant portions of each others codes, that neither side is capable of carry out a strategic surprise ground assault on the other. Air and missile strikes are different, and could be carried out, although since both sides have spy and early warning satellites, they will be able to react to some extent.

Russia and the US have Civil Defense, but not sure about the SCT nations. If you didn't fund it in 1961, you don't have it at this point.

I have informed Malkyer and Lesser Ribenia of my plans as the US player. Should they be needed. Nuclear combat and full scale conventional fighting will be resolved by me. If it is lower scale guerilla war, then Lesser Ribenia will handle it.

Even if nuclear weapons are used, it will not necessarily be armegeddon. It isn't like our universe where the US has SIOP that tried to use every single warhead it had in the first 12 hours. The US for one has a plan of graduated and proportional response. Should it use them at all. However, the key thing about deterrence is ensuring that the other side doesn't know for sure whether or not the US will use them or not.

If we get Civil Defense in 1962 we have to wiat a couple of weeks because of time slowing?

China has the following...

1. Improved Spy Satellites
2. Improved Communications Satellites
3. Civil Defense
4. National Radar System

For Intel Purposes (all is very SIC), Russia has placed signifigant investment on KGB operations in Siberia and the Causcaus (15 points). In addition, we have Spy Satellites in operation. SIGINT and EW An-12 variants will enter service by the end of the year. In addition, the KGB has recieved substantial help from the CIA, and a few South African agents, with experience in similar situations (crackdown on ANC leaders) have gone to help. CIA RC-135s are also operating in Russia, and are able to decode lower tech level codes (Turkey for example)

EDIT: Civil Defense and Radar systems have been in place for a long time.

USEA has:

1. Improved Spy Satellites [SCT Shared]
2. Improved Communications Satellites [SCT Shared]
3. Civil Defense
4. National Radar System
5. Early Warning Satellites [SCT Shared]

Japan has the following:

1. Improved Spy Satellites [SCT Shared]
2. Improved Communications Satellites [SCT Shared]
3. Civil Defense (next year)
4. National Radar System (next year)
5. Early Warning Satellites [SCT Shared]

The Kingdom of Bulgaria is now at elevated level 2 threat level until the ECC makes its final choice on the matter... Bulgarians are now being asked to leave China, Scandia and Russia at this point...

if you don't have civil defense funded for 1961, you wont have it until 1963 if its funded in 1962 (it takes time to build shelters, distribute supplies, set up networks etc)

For the record, as of 1961 South Africa has the following:

Improved Communications Satellites
Improved Spy Satellites
Civil Defense
Early Warning Satellites
National Air Radar System

IMPORTANT development in China.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118986&postcount=26

It concerns bomber development and China's frustration at the inability to develop intercontinental bombers to match the US's B-52 and the FNS's B-70 in range.

Basically, China wants to build heavy bomber planes with the same range as the B-52's and B-70's as its best bombers, the Nova and Kirin-B's only can go 2,000 kilometers which is not good enough for China while its rivals have bombers capable of 10,000 kilometer travel.

anyone know when the Japanese F-1 will come out?

IIRC its similar to the F-16, with a few modifications, so probably around the same time.

IMPORTANT development in China.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11118986&postcount=26

It concerns bomber development and China's frustration at the inability to develop intercontinental bombers to match the US's B-52 and the FNS's B-70 in range.

Basically, China wants to build heavy bomber planes with the same range as the B-52's and B-70's as its best bombers, the Nova and Kirin-B's only can go 2,000 kilometers which is not good enough for China while its rivals have bombers capable of 10,000 kilometer travel.

Bump...

If China cannot come up with conventional bombers that have intercontiental range like the B-52 or B-70 without using nuclear engines, then China will BE FORCED to develop nuclear engined bombers if only to give it planes with the same range as the B-52's and B-70's.

The Nova bombers have 6 engines while the B-52 has 8 (but in 4 "pods" instead of 8 "pods"). The Nova's are also larger than the B-52's which should mean a lot more fuel storage than the B-52's. But the Nova's can only travel 2,000 kilometers (Long Range) while the smaller B-52's can go 10,000+ kilometers. What's up with that? That doesn't make sense.

If anything, the Nova bombers should have GREATER range than the B-52's due to a lot more fuel, 6 powerful engines, and an extra-large airframe capable of holding more fuel than the B-52's do.

Weight can be a big problem. Also, there are lost of issues with using nuclear fuel. What happens if it crashes/is shot down? If one had an accident after takeoff and landed in, say, downtown Shanghai, bad things might happen.

However, if you can't make the range, people may post something like the British Defense White Paper (from 1957 possibly) advocating an all-missile force, leading to either an upswing in development by producers to avoid losing all buisness, or an increase in missile capability due to increased funding.

B-52 stats (taken from Wikipedia):

General characteristics

Contractor: Boeing Military Airplane Co.
Speed: 650 mph, 1000 km/h (Mach 0.86)
Range: Unrefueled 8,800 statute miles (14,200 km), Refueled unlimited (subject to crew limitations)
Armament: Approximately 70,000 lb (31,500 kg) mixed ordnance—bombs, land mines and missiles. (Modified to carry air-launched cruise missiles, AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship and AGM-142 Have Nap missiles.)
The nuclear weapons capacity has previously included B28, B43, B53, B61, and B83 free-fall nuclear bombs, or various combinations of twelve AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missiles (ACMS), 20 AGM-86A Air Launched Cruise Missiles (ALCM) and eight bombs.
The B-52A through F carried a tail-mounted armament of four .50 cal (12.7 mm) machine guns with the gunner sitting in the tail, The B-52G retained the quad .50 cals but the gunner moved up front with the rest of the crew and controlled the guns via remote. The B-52H replaced the quad .50's with a single 20 mm M61A1 Vulcan which offered much greater defensive fire power. In the mid-1990s, the tail gun was removed from all of the B-52H aircraft to reduce weight and because a gun is ineffective against fighter aircraft launching guided missiles.
The G and H models are distinguishable from previous models due to their shorter (by 8 feet) vertical tailplane. This configuration had previously been tested on a B-52A.
The H model is distinguishable from all previous variants by having visually different engine pods. The B-52H uses TF33-3 turbofan engines, which provided 20% greater range, 70% more thrust and are considerably quieter than the J57 engine which had been used on all previous variants
The B-52 is the only known bomber to have shot down jet-powered fighter aircraft; one unit of the type shot down two MiG-17 fighter planes during the Vietnam War.
Accommodations: Five (Pilot, Co-Pilot, Navigator, Radar Navigator (AKA Bombardier) & Electronic Warfare Officer) with all sitting in ejection seats
Unit Cost: $74 million
Date Deployed: February 1955


Now take my Nova bomber (based off An-225)

General characteristics
Crew: 6
Capacity: 70 passengers
Payload: 250,000 kg (551,000 lb)
Length: 84 m (276 ft)
Wingspan: 88.40 m (291 ft 2 in)
Height: 18.1 m (59.3 ft)
Wing area: 905.0 m² (9,741 ft²)
Empty weight: 175,000 kg (385,800 lb)
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 640,000 kg (1,411,000 lb)
Powerplant: 6× ZMKB Progress D-18 turbofans, 229 kN (51,600 lbf) each
Takeoff run: 3,500 m (11,500 ft) with maximum payload
Performance
Maximum speed: 850 km/h (530 mph)
Cruise speed: 750 km/h (465 mph)
Range: 14,000 km (8,700 mi) with maximum fuel; 4,000 km (2,485 mi) with 200 tonne payload
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (33,000 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Wing loading: 662.9 kg/m² (135.5 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.234



GB did not give me the correct range for the Nova planes.

NOTE that the Nova / An-225's have a range of 14,000 kilometers whereas the B-52's have 14,200 kilometers range (difference of only 200 kilometers). Yet GB says the Nova / An-225's are limited to 2,000 kilometers (Long Range) when in fact the An-225's should have Intercontinental range roughly the same as the B-52's!

The B-52's have a payload of 70,000 lbs / 31,500 kgs.
The Nova / An-225's have a payload of 250,000 kgs which is almost 10 times as much as the B-52!

Thus, the Nova / An-225's should have a strike rating well in excess of the B-52's (Talking about a strike rating of 20 - 30 MINIMUM for the An-225's and Naval Strike of easily 10 - 20 MINIUM as well). 35,000 kilograms of ordiance on a B-52-G as compared to 250,000 kilograms of ordiance in a Nova / An-225 bomber. Even if I divert at least 50,000 kgs of that payload to extra fuel capacity, the Nova / An-225's range would probably jump to 17,000+ kilometers from its original 14,000 kilometers.

Therefore, GB's stats for my Nova / An-225 bombers and aircraft in general are quite inaccurate.

-----------------------------------------

Therefore, the need for a nuclear powered bomber may not be necessary as I found just how much short-changed my An-225's / Nova's were in terms of stats and performance (in regards to the stats I found on Wikipedia as posted)

Again...

B-52-G / H...

Range = 14,200 kilometers.
Payload = 31,500 kilograms
Speed = 1000 kph

Nova / An-225...

Range = 14,000 kilometers (NOT 2,000 kilometers / "Long Range" as indicated by GB)
Payload = 250,000 kilograms (8 times as much as a B-52-G. In fact 1 Nova / An-225 should serve as much ordiance as 8 B-52 aircraft!)
Speed = 850 kph (conserves some more fuel- the faster you go, the more fuel you use)

Therefore, I strongly believe my aircraft should be upgraded accordingly.

Japanese Mitsubishi F-1. In RL prototypes flew in 1971. In game terms the aircraft would come out in full production around 1964-1965 (subject to mod change)

Site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-1

characteristics
Crew: One
Length: 17.66 m (57 ft 11 in)
Wingspan: 7.88 m (25 ft 10 in)
Height: 4.39 m (14 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 21.2 m² (228 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,358 kg (14,017 lb)
Loaded weight: kg (lb)
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 13,674 kg (30,146 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Ishikawa-Harima TF40-801A turbofan, 32.4 kN (7,280 lbf) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 1,700 km/h (1,060 mph)
Range: 1,130 km (705 mi)
Service ceiling: 15,250 m (50,020 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Wing loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.48
Armament
1× 20 mm JM61A1 Vulcan
Various bombs, air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles and rocket pods on four underwing, two wingtip, and one underfuselage pylon. Weapons carried include AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mitsubisi AAM-1, Mitsubishi ASM-1/2 anti-ship missiles, JLAU-3A 70 mm rocket pods, RL-7 70 mm rockets, RL-4 125 mm rockets, Mk-82 500 lb and M117 750 lb bombs, and GCS-1, IR-guided versions of the Mk-82 and M117.


Anyone have any idea what the stats would be for it? It should be able to carry anti-shipping missiles, but that's all I can think of

Another Japanese plane: The Japanese Kawaski C-1

Site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_C-1

RL in full production began in 1971, so 1964 in E20 terms (completely introduced in 1974)

General characteristics
Crew: 5 - pilot, copilot, navigator, flight engineer, loadmaster
Capacity: 60 soldiers, 45 paratroopers, 36 patients with medics, or cargo
Length: 95 ft 2 in (29 m)
Wingspan: 100 ft 4 in (30.58)
Height: 32 ft 9 in (9.99 m)
Wing area: 1297 ft² (120.5 m²)
Empty weight: 53450 lb (23320 kg)
Loaded weight: 85320 lb (38700 kg)
Useful load: 17420 lb (7900 kg
Maximum load: 26240 lb (11900 kg)
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 99200 lb (45000 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Mitsubishi-built Pratt & Whitney JT8D-M-9, 14500 lbf (64.5 kN) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 501 mph (806 km/h) (at 25000 feet at 35450 kg AUW)
Cruise speed: 408 mph (657 km/h) (at 35000 feet at 35450 kg AUW)
Range: 806 mi (1300 km)
Service ceiling: 38000 ft (11600 m)
Rate of climb: 3500 ft/min (17.8 m/s)
Wing loading: 76.48 lb/ft² (373.8 kg/m²) (max)

Input on either would be greatly appreciated

Looks solid to me, Haneastic.

As for China- I need to know exactly what it will take to upgrade my Kirin-B's to intercontiental range, or build bombers other than the Nova's that will be able to cross the Pacific in one go like the American B-52's and FNS B-70's.

With the expansion of the OA, the need is greater than ever to develop bombers just as effective as the OA's. The SCT needs bombers with equal range as the B-52's.

My Nova bombers do fit the bill with a maximum range of 14,000 kilometers, just roughly equal to the B-52's range, yet GB gave them (Nova's) a range of 2,000 kilometers, nearly 1 / 7 of what it should be.

Therefore I'm looking for any means to gain Chinese / SCT equalivent to the B-52's (not as big or unwieldly as the Nova's) to reach equality with the OA. Any aircraft, even nuclear powered ones would be better range-wise than what the SCT has besides the Nova's.

Looks solid to me, Haneastic.

As for China- I need to know exactly what it will take to upgrade my Kirin-B's to intercontiental range, or build bombers other than the Nova's that will be able to cross the Pacific in one go like the American B-52's and FNS B-70's.

With the expansion of the OA, the need is greater than ever to develop bombers just as effective as the OA's. The SCT needs bombers with equal range as the B-52's.

My Nova bombers do fit the bill with a maximum range of 14,000 kilometers, just roughly equal to the B-52's range, yet GB gave them (Nova's) a range of 2,000 kilometers, nearly 1 / 7 of what it should be.

Therefore I'm looking for any means to gain Chinese / SCT equalivent to the B-52's (not as big or unwieldly as the Nova's) to reach equality with the OA. Any aircraft, even nuclear powered ones would be better range-wise than what the SCT has besides the Nova's.


that was the A version, which you just got. By the way, the ranges Long and Intercontinental are relative terms. With tankers, which you have, your bombers do have intercontinental range. B and later versions will have better engines and ranges.

Incidently, no transport aircraft has ever been a good bomber. While some bombers have been converted into adequate transports (the C97 was built from the B29/B50 airframe)

a couple of things to think about

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11122566&postcount=36

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11122222&postcount=33

that was the A version, which you just got. By the way, the ranges Long and Intercontinental are relative terms. With tankers, which you have, your bombers do have intercontinental range. B and later versions will have better engines and ranges.

Incidently, no transport aircraft has ever been a good bomber. While some bombers have been converted into adequate transports (the C97 was built from the B29/B50 airframe)

GB, here is the problem.

My tanker aircraft have a range of 2,000 kilometers ("Long Range"). Therefore these tanker refueler planes can only fly up to 2,000 kilometers max.

Now, take a Kirin-B or Nova bomber (or any large aircraft chassis based off those two planes). Their range is "Long" or 2,000 kilometers as well. They fly to the edge of their 2,000 kilometer range, then the tankers refuel these planes.

Now these planes can fly an additional 2,000 kilometers before having to return to the original 2,000 kilometer thereshold for the refueler tankers to give the planes (or bombers) the fuel to return home.

Therefore the maximum range my planes have *WITH* refueler tankers supporting them would be 4,000 kilometers maximum. Hardly intercontinental, and only able to traverse, what, 1/3 of the Pacific ocean between Asia and either North or South America.

Therefore, China and the SCT cannot strike conventionally at the Americas or Africa or Europe. Thus, to strike those places, China and the SCT will be forced to use ICBM's, which will have nations automatically assume the ICBM's are nuclear tipped (as you can't really tell the difference between ICBM's armed with conventional explosive warheads OR ICBM's with nuclear warheads).

Conversely, the OA, America, and FNS can easily strike China or even India or Central Asian Republic with conventional payloads as the B-52's and B-70's can fly that far WITHOUT refueling. China and the SCT needs to have planes with that range.

Therefore, thats the reason why China needs to develop these nuclear powered aircraft as it doesn't have intercontinental bombers capable of flying 4,001 kilometers or more un-refueled. If not the nuclear engines, then what else? The Nova's are China's only aircraft with 14,000 kilometer ranges without refueling, and being forced to build aircraft larger than the B-52 just to match its range.

See my problem?

no, I don't see your problem, as in the rules it says that tankers extend aircraft one range band

so short goes to medium, medium to long, long to intercontinental, and intercontinental essentially unlimited.

So its covered.

Range is left vague to cover a broad range of various differences in specific operational ranges to increase playability.

You don't have to keep track of specific range, just know if they are long etc

no, I don't see your problem, as in the rules it says that tankers extend aircraft one range band

so short goes to medium, medium to long, long to intercontinental, and intercontinental essentially unlimited.

So its covered.

Range is left vague to cover a broad range of various differences in specific operational ranges to increase playability.

You don't have to keep track of specific range, just know if they are long etc

Well, the problem is that my bombers and tankers can't become intercontinental even with refueling (because they can't magically compress fuel or have the physical space needed to carry 5x necessary fuel to travel 10,000 kilometers instead of 2,000).

To put this into perpsective, suppose a fighter plane unit with "Long Range" (Avro Arrow if I remember correctly) has a tanker unit companion. The fighter suddenly becomes able to fly around the world with "Intercontinental Range" status. I've never heard of a F-14, F-18, JSF, F-22, etc. fighters flying across the Pacific or from California to, say, Iraq or Afghanistan in one sitting (no stopping whatsoever) even with tanker planes. Sounds pretty insane, yeah?


EDIT:

My Nova class airframes should have intercontinental range without refueling as their normal operating range is 14,000 kilometers- just 200 kilometers shy of the B-52's 14,200 kilometers range.

I found a few new fighter planes I'd like to have.

Dassault Mirage G (RL = 1967)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_G

I should have these planes by now in E20. These planes are "Long Range" and have Mach 2.2 capability (so a chance at catching these SR-Blackbirds planes).

Dassault Mirage 4000 (RL = 1979)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_4000

This plane is comparable to the USA's F-15 Eagle. These planes should be available to China by 1970 - 72.

Dassault Neuron (RL = 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Neuron

Possibly a stealth bomber version (instead of UCAV) for China. This should be built at roughly the same time the USA builds its B-2 stealth bombers instead of in 2000 - 2009 as both USA and China will have equal technological parity (Both will reach tech level 8 and 8.5 at the same time)


=============================

Is there any way to prevent these aircraft from being built and developed by the French? Because if these airrcraft are able to be built by the French then the OA will know EVERY weakness in Chinese airforce, while China will know nothing about the weaknesses in OA aircraft.

Besides, it would be like Boeing building B-2's and B-52's for, say, Germany or South Africa at the same time they're building them for the USA.

Fighters aside, I need a strategic bomber that has the following capacity.

1. Be able to travel across the Pacific with full payloads to strike at targets on the other side of the Pacific.

2. The ability to do that WITHOUT need of refueler tanker planes.

3. Not being forced to rely on Nova (An-225) planes to accomplish that task of range.

4. The intercontinental bomber is to have a similiar "strike rating" as the Kirin-B (minumum) or slightly better.

This is to counter the B-52's and B-70's that are able to launch from airbases in the American Mid-West and hit mainland China, Indochina, or various SCT targets and return home WITHOUT needing refueler tankers at all.

I can't find any Dassault built strategic bombers or even "Heavy bombers". All they build is fighters, recon planes, and civilian planes from 1960 onwards (RL timeline). So its either copy or "steal" Soviet aircraft designs, copy the B-52 but give it a Chinese flavor, or come up with a completely new bomber aircraft that has never been developed or designed in RL.

The problem is that I'm no good at designing aircraft, while Artista and Ato-Sara are pretty good at these kinds of things.

Fighters aside, I need a strategic bomber that has the following capacity.

1. Be able to travel across the Pacific with full payloads to strike at targets on the other side of the Pacific.

2. The ability to do that WITHOUT need of refueler tanker planes.

3. Not being forced to rely on Nova (An-225) planes to accomplish that task of range.

4. The intercontinental bomber is to have a similiar "strike rating" as the Kirin-B (minumum) or slightly better.

This is to counter the B-52's and B-70's that are able to launch from airbases in the American Mid-West and hit mainland China, Indochina, or various SCT targets and return home WITHOUT needing refueler tankers at all.

I can't find any Dassault built strategic bombers or even "Heavy bombers". All they build is fighters, recon planes, and civilian planes from 1960 onwards (RL timeline). So its either copy or "steal" Soviet aircraft designs, copy the B-52 but give it a Chinese flavor, or come up with a completely new bomber aircraft that has never been developed or designed in RL.

The problem is that I'm no good at designing aircraft, while Artista and Ato-Sara are pretty good at these kinds of things.

I take it this is an order for Han Taik (Remember you can tell them to build stuff fo you as you have shares in them). So my leige the keyboard monkeys shall red line it.

so for the F1 I was thinking stats like this:

Air Combat: 15 (I'm assuming better planes will be developed by the time it gets out)
Strike: 4 (can carry anti-shipping missiles)
Range: Medium


The C-1 will have ststs that are normal with the rest of transport aircraft.

Is this fair?

I take it this is an order for Han Taik (Remember you can tell them to build stuff fo you as you have shares in them). So my leige the keyboard monkeys shall red line it.

If thats what it takes.

I need the following criteria to be met.

1. A heavy or strategic bomber chassis for bombing missions (and a chassis that can be adapted for AEW, transport, and future roles).

2. Range to be intercontinental- able to strike at targets on California, Latin America, Hawaii, Chile, and possibly even further in-land like Denver in USA, Berlin in Germany, Rome in Italy, Bueno Aires in Argenina, etc. Basically a range of at least 12,000 kilometers minimum.

3. A strike rating at least equal to the Kirin-B (strike rating of 10 or better) and the potential to attack naval targets as well (naval strike of 8 or better is good) to deter any OA fleets that may threaten the coasts of the SCT.

4. Be able to carry any kind of ordinance- like cruise missiles, nuclear bombs, conventional bombs, napalm ordinance, and future ordinance.

5. A lifespan expected for the aircraft to last until 2050 (like the B-52's)

-----------------------------

Is this doable or possible?

If thats what it takes.

I need the following criteria to be met.

1. A heavy or strategic bomber chassis for bombing missions (and a chassis that can be adapted for AEW, transport, and future roles).

2. Range to be intercontinental- able to strike at targets on California, Latin America, Hawaii, Chile, and possibly even further in-land like Denver in USA, Berlin in Germany, Rome in Italy, Bueno Aires in Argenina, etc. Basically a range of at least 12,000 kilometers minimum.

3. A strike rating at least equal to the Kirin-B (strike rating of 10 or better) and the potential to attack naval targets as well (naval strike of 8 or better is good) to deter any OA fleets that may threaten the coasts of the SCT.

4. Be able to carry any kind of ordinance- like cruise missiles, nuclear bombs, conventional bombs, napalm ordinance, and future ordinance.

5. A lifespan expected for the aircraft to last until 2050 (like the B-52's)

-----------------------------

Is this doable or possible?

Haven't the B-52's been scrapped or put in reserve in favor of B-1 and B-2's?

Haven't the B-52's been scrapped or put in reserve in favor of B-1 and B-2's?

The B-2's won't come out until 1990+ as they didn't come out until 1997 in RL. In addition, the same goes for the B-1's. These stealth bombers are still 20+ years away in E20 (as they didn't show up until late 80's and the 90's onwards in RL)

The B-2's won't come out until 1990+ as they didn't come out until 1997 in RL. In addition, the same goes for the B-1's. These stealth bombers are still 20+ years away in E20 (as they didn't show up until late 80's and the 90's onwards in RL)

I meant in RL, I was asking whether keeping bombers like this until 2030 is smart (when you could get much better bombers)

I meant in RL, I was asking whether keeping bombers like this until 2030 is smart (when you could get much better bombers)

Ohh...

In RL, the B-52's are slated to remain in service until 2050 at least (due to their versaility and heavy bomb payloads).

Alright i've cooked up something and put it up on the draftroom for them to look it over, if you want to go check it out please feel free.

Alright i've cooked up something and put it up on the draftroom for them to it over, if you want to go check it out please feel free.

by draftroom do you mean SCT chatzy?

by draftroom do you mean SCT chatzy?

No I mean NS draftroom.

-->Linky (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?act=idx)

No I mean NS draftroom.

-->Linky (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?act=idx)

ah, I've never seen this site before

No I mean NS draftroom.

-->Linky (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?act=idx)

I appreciate the effort A LOT, Ato-Sara. You have my thanks. :)

I found a Mirage fighter that is better than the Mirage V and was released in the same year.

Mirage-G:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_G

SR-71 Blackbird (for comparison):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-71#Specifications_.28SR-71A.29

Note the Mirage-G is "Long Range" with a range of almost 4,000 kilometers, a huge improvement over the Mirage V's which are "Medium Range". The Mirage-G could be construed as a "Semi-Intercontinental" fighter!

In addition, the Mirage-G's can fly up to 60,000 feet which is 10,000 feet HIGHER than the B-52's maximum service ceiling, and just 15,000 feet shy of the SR-71 Blackbird's maximum altitude of 85,000 feet. This means the Mirage-G's can fly up to 60,000 feet and fire AAA missiles aganist the Blackbirds as 15,000 feet is nothing for missiles to accomplish.

What's more... the Mirage-G's maximum speed is Mach 2.2, while the Blackbird's maximum speed is Mach 3.2. That means the Mirage-G's *DO* have a chance of intercepting the Blackbirds if scrambled early, as the Mirage-G's are capable of 2/3 the speed of the Blackbird, a substantial improvement over various other fighter aircraft.

Therefore, I am shifting my "Upgrade" of 24 units of Mirage III's to 24 units of Mirage-G's as they are superior to the Mirage-V's.

====================================

EDIT:

China wants to make sure that the French WILL NOT be able to build these aircraft- especially the Mirage-G. China asks the Dassault company to deny production rights of this aircraft to France, as China is Dassault's largest customer and Dassault will lose nothing by not selling Mirage-G's to France.

In addition, this will be China's trump card aganist the OA- a fighter to rival the future USA F-series like F-14, F-15, etc. and having the ability / possibility to intercept Blackbirds and spy planes, and have a tremendous range, being able to attack naval aircraft far before the enemy naval aircraft reach land (mainland Asia in this instance).

so for the F1 I was thinking stats like this:

Air Combat: 15 (I'm assuming better planes will be developed by the time it gets out)
Strike: 4 (can carry anti-shipping missiles)
Range: Medium


The C-1 will have ststs that are normal with the rest of transport aircraft.

Is this fair?

anyone? Will this be posted up on the frontpage? These stats fair or by the time they come out will they be bad planes?

anyone? Will this be posted up on the frontpage? These stats fair or by the time they come out will they be bad planes?

sometime next week... I have to do further research on upcoming aircraft as well as the suggested ones

Well the people in the Draftroom don't seem to think it is bad, so i'm posting it up here.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Ht-66LuxifuStrategicbomber.png
A Ht-66 in the markings of bomber #66 from the 6th strategic bomb squadron.

General characteristics

Name: Ht-66 'Luxifu' Strategic bomber
Crew: 6 (pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator, defensive systems operator, engineer)
Length: 48 m
Wingspan:
Spread (18° sweep): 36 m
Swept (66° sweep): 24 m
Height: 12 m
Wing area:
Spread: 348 m²
Swept: 232 m²
Empty weight: 81,996 kg
Loaded weight: 109,998 kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 210,000 kg
Powerplant: 4× Yanpei G12/03 turbofans, 360 kN each

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.2
Combat radius: 7,212 km
Range: 11,280 km
Service ceiling: 15,000 m
Rate of climb: 396 m/s
Wing loading: 690 kg/m²
Thrust/weight: 0.42

Armament

Guns: 1× Bt-N42 cannon in remotely controlled tail turret
Bombs and missiles: external wing and fuselage pylons and an internal weapons bay for 31,250 kg of disposable ordnance
2× AGM-2 'Diam' nuclear cruise missiles in weapons bay or
1× internal rotary launcher for eight AGM-4 'Kavi' short-range conventional/nuclear missiles plus two more AGM-4 on each wing pylon or
1x internal rotary launcher for six AGM-1 'Kohu' anti shipping missiles plus one more AGM-1 on each wing pylon

Reminds me of a very large F-111, in the side profile and the V-G wings.

Since VTOL is on its way, is it possible to bring the Yak-36 into the game? It was orginallya technology demostrator, but for whatever reason it took the USSR eight years to stick a gun on it.

Yak-36 Freehand
First RL flight: January 9, 1963. In September 1963 it demostrated a flight where it both took off and landed vertically, with horizontal flight demonstrated as well.

* Crew: 1
* Length: 16.75 m (54 ft 11 in)
* Wingspan: 7.4 m (24 ft 3 in)
* Height: 4.4 m (14 ft 5 in)
* Wing area: 17 m² (183 ft²)
* Empty weight: 5,600 kg (12,300 lb)
* Loaded weight: kg (lb) ---TBD---
* Maximum Take-Off Weight: 9,400 kg (20,700 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Tumansky R-27-300 turbofan, 62 kN (14,000 lbf) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 1,000 km/h (625 mph)
* Range: 370 km (231 miles)
* Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,400 ft)
* Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
* Wing loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)


Perhaps not the best plane around (weapons would also need to be determined, but I'm not an expert on that) but it will be a decent VTOL aircraft until the Yak 38 enters service (RL 1975) and Yak 41 (RL first flight 1987) comes around.

Well the people in the Draftroom don't seem to think it is bad, so i'm posting it up here.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/Ht-66LuxifuStrategicbomber.png
A Ht-66 in the markings of bomber #66 from the 6th strategic bomb squadron.

General characteristics

Name: Ht-66 'Luxifu' Strategic bomber
Crew: 6 (pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator, defensive systems operator, engineer)
Length: 48 m
Wingspan:
Spread (18° sweep): 36 m
Swept (66° sweep): 24 m
Height: 12 m
Wing area:
Spread: 348 m²
Swept: 232 m²
Empty weight: 81,996 kg
Loaded weight: 109,998 kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 210,000 kg
Powerplant: 4× Yanpei G12/03 turbofans, 360 kN each

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.2
Combat radius: 2406 km
Range: 11,280 km
Service ceiling: 15,000 m
Rate of climb: 396 m/s
Wing loading: 690 kg/m²
Thrust/weight: 0.42

Armament

Guns: 1× Bt-N42 cannon in remotely controlled tail turret
Bombs and missiles: external wing and fuselage pylons and an internal weapons bay for 31,250 kg of disposable ordnance
2× AGM-2 'Diam' nuclear cruise missiles in weapons bay or
1× internal rotary launcher for eight AGM-4 'Kavi' short-range conventional/nuclear missiles plus two more AGM-4 on each wing pylon or
1x internal rotary launcher for six AGM-1 'Kohu' anti shipping missiles plus one more AGM-1 on each wing pylon


the aircraft above ( I forget which Tupolov it is, but is the one that was supposed to be equilivant to the B1), along with the B1 are both tech level 8 aircraft. Figure early 1970s to be available for deployment.

Yak 36 and the Kestrel are both being experimented with at this point, but figure operational aircraft at tech level 8 as well.

the aircraft above ( I forget which Tupolov it is, but is the one that was supposed to be equilivant to the B1), along with the B1 are both tech level 8 aircraft. Figure early 1970s to be available for deployment.

Yak 36 and the Kestrel are both being experimented with at this point, but figure operational aircraft at tech level 8 as well.

What about the Mirage-G?

Probably called something else as the fate of Dassault has yet to be determined- China hasn't called for action regarding Dassault yet IC'ly, but the development of the Mirage-G probably will be done by China Aviation instead of Dassault.

I figure the Mirage-G (or whatever it will be called by China Aviation) will have slightly better combat stats than the Mirage-V, but with three new benefits.

1. 25% - 50% ability to intercept spy planes like SR-71 Blackbirds and U-2's (60,000+ feet ceiling helps, as well as Mach 2.2 speeds. In addition it will allow the aircraft to launch missiles from 60,000+ feet instead of SAM batteries on the ground)

2. Outfly the B-52 bombers (or any strategic bomber), as the Mirage-G has a service ceiling 10,000 feet higher than the B-52's as well as double the speed of the B-52's (or pretty much any non-supersonic strategic bombers).

3. Long Range- operating at roughly 4,000 kilometers- a feat quite remarkable considering most fighter aircraft are Short or Medium range (less than 1,000 kilometers)

the aircraft above ( I forget which Tupolov it is, but is the one that was supposed to be equilivant to the B1), along with the B1 are both tech level 8 aircraft. Figure early 1970s to be available for deployment.

Yak 36 and the Kestrel are both being experimented with at this point, but figure operational aircraft at tech level 8 as well.

Its the Tuplolev Tu-160

So Ht-66, Tu-160 and B-1 are going to be toys for later.

Ok... So Sharina do you want to wait for 1970 for this baby or have something right now?

So Ht-66, Tu-160 and B-1 are going to be toys for later.

Ok... So Sharina do you wan to wait for 1970 for this baby or have something right now?

I can wait until 1970 for the strategic bomber. I also have a good fighter in the Mirage-G.

However, I was wondering if I could get a dedicated anti-naval aircraft (high naval strike rating) to devastate any naval forces that may threaten China and the SCT.

When am I going to get some better bombers? Apparently in WWII Germany made some prototype fixed winged bombers so...

Parthini']When am I going to get some better bombers? Apparently in WWII Germany made some prototype fixed winged bombers so...

Flying wing bombers didn't really take off until the 1980's and beyond mainly because it needs a lot of computing power to adjust the wing flaps and maintain center of gravity and center of aerodynamics that would otherwise flip around the aircraft.

At least thats what I remember.

I can wait until 1970 for the strategic bomber. I also have a good fighter in the Mirage-G.

However, I was wondering if I could get a dedicated anti-naval aircraft (high naval strike rating) to devastate any naval forces that may threaten China and the SCT.


These later Strategic bombers should be good against ships as they can be loaded out with many different payloads, including lots of anti-shipping missiles. Mechanised artillery units should also be able to be given anti-shipping missiles and used as costal defence.

I find it kind of funny how each of the major power blocks in 1970 will have their own different version of the same aircraft.
The OA will have the B1, the CSPS will have the TU-160 and we will have the Ht-66.
The B1 is the smallest and stealthiest and the Tu-160 the largest and carries the most weapons, the Ht-66 is in the middle but is the fastest.


Also GB, when do you think Air launched IRBMs will becom availble for research?

OOC: Ok, so I'm going to test a Space Plane armed with an Autocannon, shooting some old satellites or something.

How exactly will that work?

Oh, and it's Very Secret, so no one should know about it, until the MOL's see a plane blowing up satellites...

I'm doubting it would work at all. The space planes we have now probaly don't have much fuel to burn manuevering, which your going to have to do a lot of. The targetting systems exc you would need to hit something would take up a lot of space, if it's even possible now, unless your going to shoot at the sattelite the old fashioned way using your eye/target drawn on the window in which case it'd be extremely inaccurate in the vastness of space.Getting a compact spread of rounds would be extremely hard unless you got real close to the target in which case if you managed to hit it you would most likely be struck by debris. Keeping the plane steady so you could hit something after the first round got fired wouldn't happen, when you fire a gun it kicks back, and autocannons kick back hard, the force of the kick would push your space plane around in space and would knock you of course as there's no way we have the computer power to compensate for that now, and the ability to fit it into an already crowded space plane.

It's definetely way to early for things like this in space.

Hmm... you've got a point. Ah well, that's what testing's for eh?

I can wait until 1970 for the strategic bomber. I also have a good fighter in the Mirage-G.

However, I was wondering if I could get a dedicated anti-naval aircraft (high naval strike rating) to devastate any naval forces that may threaten China and the SCT.

Mirage IV, and Mirage V could easily work for that purpose

Flying Wing jet bombers are a tech level 8.5 technology as only fly by wire and computers make them stable enough to fly safely (look up the US B49, the jet version of the B35)

Mig 23 and various other swing wing jet fighters will be available around 1964 in this timeline. They have their advantages and disadvantages but aren't really that much more capable then the Tech level 7 fighters like the F4 Phantom but do have decent strike ratings

The US simply improves the F4 Phantom with better electronics to come up with the F4G, which is equal to the various tech level 7.5 fighters.

Aircraft like the F15 etc show up at Tech Level 8, as they have significant improvements in engine technologies, air frame materials, electronics etc over older jets.

New aircraft at this point take about 10 years to develop, and it gets longer as the tech levels increase (it took 20 years to get the F117 operational)

At this point, US strategic bombers no longer operate at high altitudes when undertaking nuclear strike missions (training at this point). They operate on the deck, making them hard to spot and intercept (hence their continued high air combat rating). They are also armed with a large number of decoys, lots of chaff, a massive EW suite, and some self defense weapons (air to air missiles etc). The problem with the Nova bomber is that is a much larger aircraft and much larger radar and visual target then the B52 (which is why the B52 has a better air combat rating).

To get an idea of what nuclear bombers do in this period, watch the movies Dr. Strangelove and Fail Safe, as well as the movie Dawns Early Light (HBO movie about 1990).

China has a difficult problem striking the US using bombers. The Great Circle route across the Pacific (the shortest air distance) passes by Japan, Russia, Alaska, and northwest Canada. The US has bases in Alaska and northwest Canada, and could easily develop them in Russia (and Early warning radars there already). A more southern across the northern Pacific can avoid some of this, but adds distance and warning time as the US maintains AEW to cover that front.

The US has the advantage that it can fly directly across the North Pole and then over Russia before heading south to attack China, meaning its tankers operate over friendly airspace pretty much the whole way. Or they can come in from the south after refueling over Australian territory to come over the Indian Ocean and then Burma (which is barely defended) and then come in using the Himalayas to hit China from the west. Or they can come over the Pacific, refueling from tankers over any of the US bases on the various islands in the Pacific, and then coming in between the Philippines and Taiwan to hit China from the east.

Which gives the US a much easier defense problem then the Chinese. Which Chinese defense commanders realize. The US also has a substantial missile strike force, which allows the US the very good possibiliy of catching the bulk of the Chinese bomber force on the ground if the US launches a first strike.

Which would worry the Chinese Defense commanders immensely.

Only the fact that the USAE has some missiles makes this risky enough for the US to think carefully before making such a move (that and the fact the the US would have huge internal political consequences should it attack without public support from the American people.. which would not be certain unless a major crisis was underway or the SCT opened fire first or a war was in progress).

The medium bombers like the FB111, Mirage IV etc also operate on the deck when undertaking nuclear strikes, but have less room for decoys, EW etc then the big bombers do. Which is why they are rated nearly the same in air combat.

concerning the Scandic Union. The US has an advantage versus it as well, as Scandic bombers have to penetrate past US bases in Greenland, Iceland, British bases in the UK or Canadian bases in northern Canada, which means Scandic tankers can't operate very far from Norway. While the US has friendly air space until very close to Norway that it can operate from.

The British, Germans and Russians are more at a disadvantage in this situation though, as major targets are very close to the Scandic Union. Of course the reverse is true as well. Which makes that situation more unstable and dangerous in a crisis. Pressure to attack first would be very, very high.

Russia has a major defense problem as well, dealing with both the SCT and Scandic Union, along with vulnerable (because of the sheer distances) borders with the Ukraine and CAR. Pressure on the Russian government internally to arm itself with IRBMs and nuclear weapons would be increasing, especially now after the Siberian Crisis.

Which gives the US a much easier defense problem then the Chinese. Which Chinese defense commanders realize. The US also has a substantial missile strike force, which allows the US the very good possibiliy of catching the bulk of the Chinese bomber force on the ground if the US launches a first strike.

Which would worry the Chinese Defense commanders immensely.

By missile strike force, you mean nuclear ICBM's?

As I recall, cruise missiles don't have intercontinental range yet, I think?

-snip-

A few corrections are needed for that.
The USEA doesn't actually have any ICBMs or IRBMs deployed anywhere (Yet), while China has a few (Now....).
The USEA also has very little anti-air coverage except around Saigon and Bangkok.
Burma is quite well defended, by two fighter units and two mechanised flak units (Soon to be three)

In short the US would almost definately come out on top in a first strike scenario as the SCT nations have very few effective delivery vehicles for their warheads.

Beside that, I was wondering when my Mirage-G's will be able to be buil and produced (Chinese only aircraft as I'm contracting China Aviation to build an aircraft that exactly matches the Mirage-G's stats)

In short the US would almost definately come out on top in a first strike scenario as the SCT nations have very few effective delivery vehicles for their warheads.

don't think that didn't occur to the US during the Siberian Crisis

don't think that didn't occur to the US during the Siberian Crisis

Which is why we wern't willing to go to nuclear war and backed out.

new unit availables at Tech Level 8
Mobile IRBM (SS20 equivilant) cost 1 point for 10 missiles. maintenance 1 point a year. Treated as a fortified misisle unit, but can be moved by strategic moved around.

Aegis cruiser -- more effective anti missile screen for the ships it guards. Essentially reduces the strike value of 1 bomber unit to 1 (as it can intercept a barrage of missiles). Aegis cruisers will require 12 points of research after reaching tech level 8.

Anti aircraft cruisers are increased in effectiveness, and reduce the strike value of 1 bomber unit by half.

A destroyer unit reduces the strike value of a bomber unit by 2, and a Frigate unit reduces the strike value of a bomber unit by 1.

(of course, the cost of these naval units also increase as more computers, electronics and radars are added)

Cruise missiles become available after research, which will allow the submarines and surface ships to strike land targets at a distance with either nuclear or special conventional warheads.

Submunitions become available as well

Both cruise missiles and submunitions will require research (12 points)

more units will be added as we get closer to Tech level 8.

more units will be added as we get closer to Tech level 8.

All right.

The only thing I need to know now is when my Mirage-G (developed by China Aviation) will be available, and rough in-game stats (should be able to catch spy planes about 1/4 the time due to high speeds and high service ceiling).

All right.

The only thing I need to know now is when my Mirage-G (developed by China Aviation) will be available, and rough in-game stats (should be able to catch spy planes about 1/4 the time due to high speeds and high service ceiling).

when time permits me to post it and research various other aircraft

when time permits me to post it and research various other aircraft

Works for me.

An OOC idea if Dassault splits:

Presumably most of the French designers in China are people who have been there a long time, and the Chinese are fairly recent additions, any division would cause both groups to lose experienced input. So, perhaps instead of both developing identical planes, they develop planes that each have different flaws. For example, if a future Dassault plane would have stats of Air Combat 15, Strike 4, Long Range, the French design might be AC 15, Strike 4, range short, as with the loss of 10+ years experience they make a flaw with the engines in this example. The Chinese design might be AC 12, Strike 2, Range long, as they make an error with manouverablity and weapons, or something.

At first the loss compared to RL stats would be pretty big, but over time it would probably equalize.

Sound decent?

An OOC idea if Dassault splits:

Presumably most of the French designers in China are people who have been there a long time, and the Chinese are fairly recent additions, any division would cause both groups to lose experienced input. So, perhaps instead of both developing identical planes, they develop planes that each have different flaws. For example, if a future Dassault plane would have stats of Air Combat 15, Strike 4, Long Range, the French design might be AC 15, Strike 4, range short, as with the loss of 10+ years experience they make a flaw with the engines in this example. The Chinese design might be AC 12, Strike 2, Range long, as they make an error with manouverablity and weapons, or something.

At first the loss compared to RL stats would be pretty big, but over time it would probably equalize.

Sound decent?


Not really, no one really makes mistakes that big and the company woldn't just split like that, it's not good business, they would choose one market or the other.

Most of Dassualt's military factories are in Asia as the SCT are Dassult's biggest military customers. (China, Burma, Korea, USEA and Japan all buy Mirages in large quanties)
If I remember correctly the only reason dassault reopened some some factories in france was because Europe is the biggest market for their civillian products and france threatend to close these factories unless Mirages were sold to them.

Taking this into account, Dassault will not want to lose the Asian market as they get loads of sales there, equally they would prefer to be able to keep the European market as well. However due to current events this will not be possible.
In my opinion Daasult will most likely choose to stay in Asia at the cost of European customers. This would be garunteed if China offered to buy Dassault Airplanes for their civilian airlines and give them tax breaks.

However the French could seize Dassault offices and facilities in France which could get them some information on the latest projects Dassault are working on, and then set up a new comapny, with enginneers from Dassault that felt to patriotic to abandon France, which would design aircraft based on these recovered plans.

Ultimatley the mods should decide what Dassault as a company will do.

Not really, no one really makes mistakes that big and the company woldn't just split like that, it's not good business, they would choose one market or the other.

Most of Dassualt's military factories are in Asia as the SCT are Dassult's biggest military customers. (China, Burma, Korea, USEA and Japan all buy Mirages in large quanties)
If I remember correctly the only reason dassault reopened some some factories in france was because Europe is the biggest market for their civillian products and france threatend to close these factories unless Mirages were sold to them.

Taking this into account, Dassault will not want to lose the Asian market as they get loads of sales there, equally they would prefer to be able to keep the European market as well. However due to current events this will not be possible.
In my opinion Daasult will most likely choose to stay in Asia at the cost of European customers. This would be garunteed if China offered to buy Dassault Airplanes for their civilian airlines and give them tax breaks.

However the French could seize Dassault offices and facilities in France which could get them some information on the latest projects Dassault are working on, and then set up a new comapny, with enginneers from Dassault that felt to patriotic to abandon France, which would design aircraft based on these recovered plans.

Ultimatley the mods should decide what Dassault as a company will do.


I have a question. It's been about 20 years or so since the Dassault company moved I believe. So wouldn't most of the engineers be Chinese anyway? I mean there would probably be a few French engineers either still there or who arrived, but most of the expertise was passed on to engineers who are there now. Plus China can offer engineers of their own that's cheper to get than sending for engineers in France, so Dassault would be by now mostly Chinese.

Hmm...

Lets see. Dassault moved to China in the last years of WW-3 after France was defeated and then being forbidden from having military aircraft as part of the LTA peace conditions on France.

Thats 20 years ago, and in 20 years quite a number of French engineers, scientists, etc. working in China would have most likely taken Chinese wives or something as there's not many Europeans living in China for obvious reasons. The French people that did take Chinese wives (or husbands in case of French female engineers or scientists) would most likely have children of their own. Thus, there would be quite a lot of incentive for the French engineers in China to stay- mainly because of family ties.

Also, the French engineers would be ones who fled France after its defeat at the hands of the LTA, and they might not want to work for the OA (if France joins) which is basically a re-invented LTA.

Also, money greases a lot of wheels, and the SCT market is huge not just for military, but civilian aircraft as well. The SCT has practically 1/2 or so of the entire world's population, and that translates into thousands of civilian aircraft for Dassault to produce and sell in the SCT to service at least 1.5 billion people. Enormous and very lucrative business opporunities.

Hmm...

Lets see. Dassault moved to China in the last years of WW-3 after France was defeated and then being forbidden from having military aircraft as part of the LTA peace conditions on France.

Thats 20 years ago, and in 20 years quite a number of French engineers, scientists, etc. working in China would have most likely taken Chinese wives or something as there's not many Europeans living in China for obvious reasons. The French people that did take Chinese wives (or husbands in case of French female engineers or scientists) would most likely have children of their own. Thus, there would be quite a lot of incentive for the French engineers in China to stay- mainly because of family ties.

Also, the French engineers would be ones who fled France after its defeat at the hands of the LTA, and they might not want to work for the OA (if France joins) which is basically a re-invented LTA.

Also, money greases a lot of wheels, and the SCT market is huge not just for military, but civilian aircraft as well. The SCT has practically 1/2 or so of the entire world's population, and that translates into thousands of civilian aircraft for Dassault to produce and sell in the SCT to service at least 1.5 billion people. Enormous and very lucrative business opporunities.

and China of course could alwats buy up shares of Dassault if they felt like it, and they would be able to buy out France

and China of course could alwats buy up shares of Dassault if they felt like it, and they would be able to buy out France

Exactly.

1. The SCT has the potential for far more customers and Supply + Demand for Dassault.

2. The SCT has far more capital to buy out Dassault than France does.

3. It stands to reason Dassault would view staying in the SCT as a far more profitable venture than staying in France (only serving one nation- France, instead of multiple nations- the SCT)

4. French people working in China has been there for 20 years, plenty of time to start families with Chinese spouses and have Chinese children. They wouldn't leave their families to go back to France unless they're the ultra-nationalist types who would give up an arm, leg, or even head for France (but that will mean leaving their families behind).

I'm inclined to think that Sharina is right, except I have a feeling a lot of Frenchmen are going to think that perhaps China might not be the safest place after recent events. Thus I think what would happen is there would be a split with something like 20% to France and 80% to China.

Either way, China should be getting a LOT of flak in the world press about the restrictions of free market. A few questions regarding China's view on Capitalism are probably raised with many old people remembering China's alliance with the Pact...

Oh yeah, and I think Yugoslavia, Albania and Algeria also buy Dassault planes.

Parthini']Oh yeah, and I think Yugoslavia, Albania and Algeria also buy Dassault planes.

So do I. Not as many as the SCT, granted, but hey...South Africa makes cool things out of other people's weapons starting in the 1970s.

OOC:Who says Dassault has to be restricted to serving one nation? Dassault is potentially one of the biggest Aircraft manufacturer in the world and would realistically have plants and employees all over not just in China, which includes manufacturing of civilian and millitary aircraft, Spare parts, materials for space exploration...etc.

Another thing Dassault is not just owned by France and China or the SCT, there would be a large number of worldwide businessmen holding shares in Dassault. Also I am inclined to believe that "Buying Out" Dassault is not as easy as would one think, given its size and revenue (Figure all purchase points and some maintenance points would go to it -somewhat equivilent to the revenue of small European Nation like Holland) they would have millions of shares worldwide.

Who knows also if Dassault hasn't expanded into other markets making the corporation a strong force in the world economy. I would imagine also the big shareholders of Dassault wouldn't like it to lose their empire to China. Then there is the government interference in the market, very anti-freetrade.

All in all, I would think the prospect of any nation "buying out" a multinational super corporation, although possible, would very difficult and expensive.
-------------------------------------------
IC: The government of France announces the formation of the AAFC (Agence Aérospatiale Française De Conception), a govenment design agency which will work with other corporations such as Dassault, Boeing, Tupolev...etc to produce aircraft and weaponry unique to the Government of France. 15% shares will be relased to the public.

First Projects will involve improvments of electronic systems both on-board and off-board, Aeodynamics, weaponry...etc.

OOC: essentially the idea is to have each corporation work on a part so that the full designs are only known to the French Defence agency. But the main function is nt new aircraft but essentially modifying existing aircrafts.

Dassault aviation had its military production line in China, and its civilian production line in France. Both would have worked hand in hand on engine designs, materials etc. The treaty said that France could not build military aircraft, not that it couldn't design them. So most likely a lot of the design work was done in France, and a division of the company located in China handled the actual production of military aircraft.

Real world example would be Germany during the 1920s, where U-Boat designs were handled in Germany, but construction occured in Holland. Because of similar restrictions.

So for 20 years China has benefited from French design work. Another similar example occured in real life China. In the 1950s the Soviets set up production lines in China for the Mig 15, Mig 17 and Mig 19, and by the early 1960s sold a few Mig 21s to China. Unitil they parted ways. So China has been able to build those aircraft every since, plus improve on the designs, but the Mig design team remained in Russia.

However, in this RP, China does have other designers (Nova bomber, H6 bomber etc), and does have the talent to continue improving on Dassault desgns. Just call the new company something else.

OOC:Who says Dassault has to be restricted to serving one nation? Dassault is potentially one of the biggest Aircraft manufacturer in the world and would realistically have plants and employees all over not just in China, which includes manufacturing of civilian and millitary aircraft, Spare parts, materials for space exploration...etc.

Another thing Dassault is not just owned by France and China or the SCT, there would be a large number of worldwide businessmen holding shares in Dassault. Also I am inclined to believe that "Buying Out" Dassault is not as easy as would one think, given its size and revenue (Figure all purchase points and some maintenance points would go to it -somewhat equivilent to the revenue of small European Nation like Holland) they would have millions of shares worldwide.

Who knows also if Dassault hasn't expanded into other markets making the corporation a strong force in the world economy. I would imagine also the big shareholders of Dassault wouldn't like it to lose their empire to China. Then there is the government interference in the market, very anti-freetrade.

All in all, I would think the prospect of any nation "buying out" a multinational super corporation, although possible, would very difficult and expensive.
-------------------------------------------
IC: The government of France announces the formation of the AAFC (Agence Aérospatiale Française De Conception), a govenment design agency which will work with other corporations such as Dassault, Boeing, Tupolev...etc to produce aircraft and weaponry unique to the Government of France. 15% shares will be relased to the public.

First Projects will involve improvments of electronic systems both on-board and off-board, Aeodynamics, weaponry...etc.

OOC: essentially the idea is to have each corporation work on a part so that the full designs are only known to the French Defence agency. But the main function is nt new aircraft but essentially modifying existing aircrafts.

Hmm...

Actually, suppose the same were to happen to Boeing, Lockheed, Intel, Microsoft, etc. in RL. The US decides that "national security" is more important than allowing foreign nations access to US designs... Can you imagine what if India, Afghanistan, or god forbid, RL commie China gets access to B-2 stealth bomber, super-electronics used in CIA stuff, powerful personal computers, etc. just because of "Made in China" or "Made in India" and the massive out-sourcing of US company labor to these Third World nations?

In addition, I doubt "free-market" covers sharing of military secrets / technologies. If this were true, then the Pan-American Treaty would mean the US is forced to share all of its E20 technologies with Mexico, Canada, FNS, etc. and then with Europe through the structure of the OA alliance. Meaning every nation in the OA / EEC / PAT would be building B-52's, SR-71 Blackbirds, etc. Nations from UK all the way to Germany and even backwards nations that might be allied to the OA in Africa (mostly nations like Ghana, Liberia, Mali, Senegal, etc.)

However, I don't see the US being likely to support such a thing. Thus, the US would be equally as anti free-trade as China would be if China does this with Dassault.

That's a whole different thing. Dassault is a joint China-France company, a partnership. Boeing has no connection to Ghana or the FNS, and thus has every right to not sell to those companies. However, China, one of the partners, has no legal right to keep Dassault, a public company, from selling to one of the partners.

I think this should be brought to the ICJ.

Parthini']That's a whole different thing. Dassault is a joint China-France company, a partnership. Boeing has no connection to Ghana or the FNS, and thus has every right to not sell to those companies. However, China, one of the partners, has no legal right to keep Dassault, a public company, from selling to one of the partners.

I think this should be brought to the ICJ.

Boeing does have a connection with the FNS- namely the B-70 or its components, unless I'm mistaken.

China does have a legal right to deny Dassault from sharing military secrets with France, as the military branch of Dassault has moved to China. If the military branch of Dassault had stayed in France just after WW-3 (if France didn't have the treaty imposed on it) then this would be a completely different story.

Besides, when did military secrets development become a public venture? I can hardly see B-2 stealth bombers becoming a public venture (RL or in E20). The China-France partnership will not work anymore, as China is in the SCT, and France is joining the OA, an supposedly anti-SCT alliance. It'd be like a company having the US and USSR as 50 / 50 partners in the RL Cold War then sharing all of US and USSR technology secrets developed by said company to both sides (US and USSR).

So the best case scenario for all concerned is.... I can see the military part of Dassault staying in China (as China and the SCT has made *HUGE* profits for the military branch of Dassault in the last 10 years. 50+ units of planes, or 5,000+ jet fighters while France and its allies has bought a mere fraction of that). Besides, the US and UK based companies in the OA probably will start mass-selling its aircraft to various OA nations, driving the military branches of companies like Dassault out of business in the OA nations.

EDIT:

Companies go to where the money is at, except nationalized companies. If there's more profit to be had in China or India in RL, then I'm sure more American companies will pull up roots and move to China and India- its already started happening (outsourcing of jobs) with a few companies relocating significant assets overseas because of the profit factor. Microsoft, IBM, and others have significant assets already established in China and India (technical support), and we've already been having a flood of American corporate products "Made in China" and "Made in India" products in the US for a while.

As for E20, there's far more money and profits to be had in the SCT than in Europe- so there should be tremendous incentive for Dassault to pull up its roots (mainly military branches) in Europe and move what military branches remain there in Europe to the SCT where it will experience even more profit- billions dollars more profit than can be had in Europe. Why would Dassault company pass up the opporunity to generate more profit in the SCT for an opprounity to make LESS profit in Europe? Europe's already crowded with other aircraft companies in UK, Germany, SU, Poland, etc.

It's very doubtful that the European portion of Dassault would be selling anything to the US, FNS, UK, Germany, SU, etc. because they already have their own companies (Boeing, Tupolev, Airbus, MiG, etc.), therefore limiting Dassault's selling opporunities to France and French allies that DO NOT have access to US, UK, etc. aircraft and equipment.

Why should Dassualt "pull up is roots" as long as it able to sell to both sides, just because China feels like it that does not mean it has to, granted China is a bigger customer but France is still a prosperous market and to abandon that would mean the loss of millions in profit and as a result a massive drop in stock prices why would Dassault would want to do that just to appease the bullying Chinese government?

And what possible secrets did the Chinese government spent much on devolepment does Dassault have anyway? Don't tell me that the Mirage V is a chinese military secret now, any rate France does not care about these secrets and an agreement can be made if approached. Why, French millitary secrets may possibly be in question aswell.

Why should Dassualt "pull up is roots" as long as it able to sell to both sides, just because China feels like it that does not mean it has to, granted China is a bigger customer but France is still a prosperous market and to abandon that would mean the loss of millions in profit and as a result a massive drop in stock prices why would Dassault would want to do that just to appease the bullying Chinese government?

And what possible secrets did the Chinese government spent much on devolepment does Dassault have anyway? Don't tell me that the Mirage V is a chinese military secret now, any rate France does not care about these secrets and an agreement can be made if approached. Why, French millitary secrets may possibly be in question aswell.

China doesn't have issues with Mirage-V's or earlier aircraft as they're ALREADY made and produced. Its mainly to do with future military aircraft designs that have yet to be built or designed (like the Mirage-G's, Rafales, Neuron stealth bombers, Mirage 2000's, Mirage 4000's, etc.).

Besides, millions lost in Europe is tiny potatoes compared to the billions gained by moving entirely to the SCT. For every $1 million lost in Europe, Dassault could easily gain $100 million to $1 billion more in the SCT which is 100 to 1000 times more profit.

This is why I think its a bad idea to have an company have branches / offices in entirely opposing sides (from the national point of view). Think what would have happened if the US and USSR had an aerospace company (or any technology company for that matter) in the RL Cold War. There would have been far more hell and tensions as both sides would know EVERYTHING about each other- all their strengths and weaknesses, and the US would know every USSR secret as their spy equipment would be the exact same as the USSR (same electronics made by same company in this hypothetical situation), and vice versa. The CIA and KGB would know all of each other's secrets as they'd have same bugging technology, detection technology, etc.

The USSR Air Force would know exactly where and how to exploit the USA's Air Force planes (if both sides employed the exact same company in RL as China and France in E20), and vice versa.

Keep in mind, all this Dassault stuff HAS NOT HAPPENED IC'ly YET! Everything is all OOC debate at this point.

Why should Dassualt "pull up is roots" as long as it able to sell to both sides, just because China feels like it that does not mean it has to, granted China is a bigger customer but France is still a prosperous market and to abandon that would mean the loss of millions in profit and as a result a massive drop in stock prices why would Dassault would want to do that just to appease the bullying Chinese government?

And what possible secrets did the Chinese government spent much on devolepment does Dassault have anyway? Don't tell me that the Mirage V is a chinese military secret now, any rate France does not care about these secrets and an agreement can be made if approached. Why, French millitary secrets may possibly be in question aswell.

actually, the military brances would be in China because of the treaty anyway, and China can offer (if it's the same in E20 as it is in RL) cheaper and more labor than France can provide. Plus even though they may lose some money, remember that China and the SCT has a huger market than France and it's allies provide. Plus China can always purchse stocks in the company, either through the Chinese government or through independant people, and other SCT nations can also buy stocks

Um Sharina... its not actually the B70... is an FNS version named the Condor. (M-52)

Um Sharina... its not actually the B70... is an FNS version named the Condor. (M-52)

The US Government actually gave Colombia (the FNS) permission to build the B70

regarding Dassault

The production lines are in China for the military aircraft, so what would happen is this..

Daussault would either sell them or China would nationalize them. Dassault would then set up military production in another country (Belgium a likely possibiliy or Burgundy) to meet French arms limitation requirements (or the treaty could be amended) while continuing production of civilian aircraft in France. A new company would then exist in China

So Sharina, come up with a name.

My expected aid to the Arab Socialists:
Saddam’s Special Republican Guard (Defends Baghdad and protects Saddam)
1 Highly Trained Garrison Unit
Saddam’s Republican Guard (Saddam’s Primary Army against Federation forces)
(Should already get 1 free partisan unit and part of the Federation’s Military)
2 Infantry Divisions
1 Artillery Division
1 Armored Division
1 HQ
Also giving them 1 batch of Sarin Gas and 1 batch of Distilled Mustard Gas.
Air support will be provided directly by the UR Air Force.

Yemen Republican Forces (Pan-Arab Forces fighting to join the UAR)
(Should get at least half of Yemen’s Military already)
1 Mountain Division
1 Infantry Division
1 Artillery Division
If an air war erupts, I'll send over a fighter or some anti-air units.

This isn't my final draft, so I may add/reduce aid to the countries depending on how it goes.

regarding Dassault

The production lines are in China for the military aircraft, so what would happen is this..

Daussault would either sell them or China would nationalize them. Dassault would then set up military production in another country (Belgium a likely possibiliy or Burgundy) to meet French arms limitation requirements (or the treaty could be amended) while continuing production of civilian aircraft in France. A new company would then exist in China

So Sharina, come up with a name.

Give me a few days to look up a good name. I'd like to have this comnpany seperate from China Aviation and Han Taik- this will promote competition between three major aircraft companies, ensuring high quality aircraft and "pushing the envelope" whenever the Chinese government (or the other SCT nations) contract these three companies to come up with new aircraft designs.

Besides, this "new" company should be able to come up with the Mirage-G, Rafale, and Neuron designs (at the apporpiate tech levels and game years). In addition, would it be okay if this company also created several new aircraft designs that blends some RL American and Soviet designs and aircraft stats? Ato-Sara can help me with the aircraft stats and stuff like he did with the Luxifu Bomber.

My expected aid to the Arab Socialists:
Saddam’s Special Republican Guard (Defends Baghdad and protects Saddam)
1 Highly Trained Garrison Unit
Saddam’s Republican Guard (Saddam’s Primary Army against Federation forces)
(Should already get 1 free partisan unit and part of the Federation’s Military)
2 Infantry Divisions
1 Artillery Division
1 Armored Division
1 HQ
Also giving them 1 batch of Sarin Gas and 1 batch of Distilled Mustard Gas.
Air support will be provided directly by the UR Air Force.

Yemen Republican Forces (Pan-Arab Forces fighting to join the UAR)
(Should get at least half of Yemen’s Military already)
1 Mountain Division
1 Infantry Division
1 Artillery Division
If an air war erupts, I'll send over a fighter or some anti-air units.

This isn't my final draft, so I may add/reduce aid to the countries depending on how it goes.

you're giving Sadaam gas weapons? I'm sure this is going to raise some questions, and some nations nearby might feel a little threatened.

you're giving Sadaam gas weapons? I'm sure this is going to raise some questions, and some nations nearby might feel a little threatened.

The second largest country in the Middle East is having a civil war. I don't think any of their neighbors feel too safe. :D

creating a thread with background would be good (please) and forces

When does the A-10 come out?

And when it does, can Germany make its own version, like the Stuka-II :p

Wait. So we can't have elite trained pilots either?

no elites for either army of airforce, elites only count in the special forces i believe, and you can only have 1 unit for every 10 million people I believe.

For Special Forces, the training is: Highly Trained, Elite, Handpicked

Ok if your country doesn't make a standard fighter, like say the Philippines, what do we do when choosing a fighter type to make? I mean how do I pick?

Ok if your country doesn't make a standard fighter, like say the Philippines, what do we do when choosing a fighter type to make? I mean how do I pick?

If you need a fighter, you generally just build one from another country, or buy it from them, but you might be able to take an actual design off the internet of a RL fighter from a differnet county and call it your own

So I can just build one from another country. THanks man, you've been really helpful.

Parthini']When does the A-10 come out?

And when it does, can Germany make its own version, like the Stuka-II :p

Bump for reply.

it comes out 1970 in this game

Hey GB, when does the SSGN become relevant in this game? When cruise missiles are developed. Also, is AIP propulsion a 8.5 advancement?

With the treaty restricting the production of French aircraft out of the way, and Dassault's Dilemma finally resolved, The AAFC (Agence Aérospatiale Française De Conception) begins working with Dassault and Russian Engineers (Yakolev) to produce a superior VTOL fighter. Other EEC engineers are invited aswell on this research.

Hey GB, when does the SSGN become relevant in this game? When cruise missiles are developed. Also, is AIP propulsion a 8.5 advancement?

tech 8 for SSGN and cruise missiles, tech 8.5 (maybe) for AIP

New aircraft available 1964
Fighter and fighter bombers
Cost 3, maintenance 1
F4G Phantom Air combat 15, strike 5, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, US
Avro Arrow II air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor US/Canada

Su 22 air combat 13, strike 3, range medium, Russia
Mig 23 Air combat 15, strike 2, range short, Poland
Tornado I air combat 15, strike 0, range long, all weather interceptor UK/Germany/Italy (air defense version of Tornado)
China Aviation / Mirage G air combat 15, strike 3, range medium, all weather interceptor China
Mirage F1 air combat 15, strike 2, range medium, all weather interceptor

Light and Medium bombers
Mig 27 air combat 10, strike 4, range medium, all weather fighter bomber, Poland
Su 24 air combat 10 (defense only) strike 6 (maritime and ground), range medium, all weather bomber, Russia
Cost 4, maintenance 1
SEPCAT Jaguar air combat 10, strike 5, range medium, all weather bomber UK/France
Cost 3, maintenance 1
Mirage F1 bomber air combat 12, strike 3, range medium, all weather bomber France
Cost 3, maintenance 1
IAR 93 air combat 8, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber, Rumania
Cost 3, maintenance 1
Sokko J22 Orao air combat 9, strike 3, range long, all weather bomber Romania
Cost 4, maintenance 1
Nanchang Q-5 air combat 10, strike 3, range medium, China

Special aircraft
Dornier Alphajet bomber / trainer air combat 11, strike 3, range short, Germany
Cost 2, maintenance .25
Hawker Hawk bomber / trainer air combat 11, strike 2, range medium, UK
Cost 2, maintenance .25

Defense Suppression
Tornado Mk 3 air combat 16 (defense only), strike 4, range medium, all weather UK/Germany (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) cost 4, maintenance 2 1965
Nanchang EQ-5 air combat 12 (defense only) strike 2, range medium, (acts as a Wild Weasel aircraft) China 1965


Heavy bomber
Tu26 Backfire air combat 12, strike 6, range long, all weather bomber Scandic Union Cost 5, maintenance 2 1967
Tu22M Backfire air combat 12, maritime strike 8, strike 2, all weather maritime strike aircraft, Scandic Union 1966 Cost 5, maintenance 2

Strategic Bomber
B1 Lancer air combat 18 (defense only), strike 10, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5 1968 (will replace B58)
B1B Lancer air combat 16 (defense only), maritime strike 12, range intercontinental, all weather maritime strike aircraft, cost 10, maintenance 5, 1968 (will replace some B52s)


(the Nova will be added as soon as I can find it again)

I can't find Italy's military anywhere. Would one of the war mods be willing to rule on what kind of military power I have?

*Drools at new Su-24's*

Is there any chance of a Russian EA-6 equivalent, or should I just buy American? The Air Force will be a happy service in '64 either way.

what about the Japanese F-1 and the Kawaski C-1's?

Nothing for FNS eh? I mean, we're only an entire continent with the industrialialized level of Britain.

Strategic Bomber
B1 Lancer air combat 18 (defense only), strike 10, range intercontinental, all weather strategic bomber, cost 10, maintenance 5 1968 (will replace B58)
B1B Lancer air combat 16 (defense only), maritime strike 12, range intercontinental, all weather maritime strike aircraft, cost 10, maintenance 5, 1968 (will replace some B52s)


What about the Tu-160 and the Ht-66? You said they would come out at the same time as the B1 Lancer.

Tu-160 coming out in 1964/1974?!?!?! Are you on crack?! Smack??! angeldust?!!? methanphetamines?!!?! PCP?!?!?! um.. TYLENOL!?

The Tu-22M is an excellent aircraft... GB I hope you plan on including the Tu-22M4 when its time... I would think Maritime Strike of 20 ;)

Tu-160 coming out in 1964/1974?!?!?! Are you on crack?! Smack??! angeldust?!!? methanphetamines?!!?! PCP?!?!?! um.. TYLENOL!?

The Tu-22M is an excellent aircraft... GB I hope you plan on including the Tu-22M4 when its time... I would think Maritime Strike of 20 ;)

Well if i'm on drugs thinking the Tu-160 should come out in 1968 GB is most likely on the same type of drugs saying the B1 and B1B are coming out in 1968.

In RL the B1 arrived in 1986!

I think it's a tad unfair if the US gets it next generation uber bomber decades before everyone else get's their equivelants.

Well if i'm on drugs thinking the Tu-160 should come out in 1964 Gb is most likely on the smae type of drugs saying the B1 and B1B are coming out in 1964.

In RL the B1 arrived in 1986!

I think it's a tad unfair if the US gets it next generation uber bomber decades before everyone else get's their equivelants.

read closer... the B1 historically came out 1975, and in this time line will come out 1968