NationStates Jolt Archive

Japanese Army 1955

x1 Elite Light Infantry Division: Sapporo
x1 Elite Light Infantry Division: Kyoto
x1 Elite Light Infantry Division: Tokyo
x1 Elite Light Infantry Division: Fukuoka

x1 Elite Parachute Brigade: Sapporo
x1 Elite Parachute Brigade: Sapporo
x1 Elite Parachute Brigade: Tokyo
x1 Elite Parachute Brigade: Hiroshima

x1 Elite Flak Group: Kobe
x1 Elite Flak Group: Akida
x1 Elite Flak Group: Osaka
x1 Elite Flak Group: Fukuoka
x1 Elite Flak Group: Sapporo
x1 Elite Flak Group: Nagasaki
x1 Elite Flak Group: Hiroshima
x1 Elite Flak Group: Tokyo
x1 Elite Flak Group: Kyoto
x1 Elite Flak Group: Yokohoma

x1 HQ: Tokyo
x1 HQ: Sapporo

x3 Frigate Flotilla: Yokohoma

x1 C82: Sapporo
x1 C82: Sapporo
x1 C82: Tokyo
x1 C82: Hiroshima

x1 Garrison unit: Tokyo
x1 Garrison unit: Kyoto
x1 Garrison unit: Nagasaki
x1 Garrison unit: Kobe
x1 Garrison unit: Yokohoma
x1 Garrison unit: Akida

Korean Armed Forces (Dashes denote specialized units)

Imperial Korean Army:

2 HQ units- 2pt (One is Pan Korean Command, the other is Field Command)

Home Guard:
1 infantry division .25 points
1 mountain infantry brigade .25 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points

-Rapid Reaction Unit:

1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points

Imperial Korean Air Force:

2 Dassault Mirage III Fighters-2
6 expert pilots 1.50 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25

-Missile Division:

4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2

Imperial Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

SIC:

Korean National Police Agency Reconnaisance Division:

1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2

Total: 20.5 Points (Estimated)

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

1 Infantry Division
1 Mountain Brigade
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25

Ht-3 and Ht-4 Helicopter development has concluded with final test flights lsat year and both models are ready for purchase.

Name: Ht-3 Transport Helicopter
Crew: One or two pilots
Capacity: 16 troops or up to 1,600 kg (3,520 lb) of cargo
Length: 26.80 m (87 ft 11 in)
Rotor diameter: 21.00 m (68 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 5 in)
Disc area: 346.4 m² (3,727 ft²)
Empty weight: 5,100 kg (11,220 lb)
Loaded weight: 7,150 kg (15,730 lb)
Maximum gross takeoff weight: 7,550 kg (16,610 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Yanpei Yp-82V radial engine, 1,250 kW (1,675 hp)

Performance

Maximum speed: 185 km/h (116 mph)
Range: 500 km (313 miles)
Service ceiling: 5,500 m (18,040 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Disc loading: 41 kg/m² (8 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.21 kW/kg (0.13 hp/lb)

(Based off Mil-4)



Name: Ht-4 Heavy Transport Helicopter
Crew: Five
Capacity: 61 troops or up to 12,000 kg (26,400 lb) of cargo
Length: 33.18 m (108 ft 10 in)
Rotor diameter: 35.00 m (114 ft 10 in)
Height: 9.86 m (32 ft 4 in)
Disc area: 962 m² (10,350 ft²)
Empty weight: 26,500 kg (58,400 lb)
Loaded weight: 39,700 kg (87,500 lb)
Maximum gross takeoff weight: 41,700 kg (91,900 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Yanpei Yp-25V turboshafts, 4,100 kW (5,500 shp each) each

Performance

Maximum speed: 250 km/h (155 mph)
Range: 500 km (310 miles)
Service ceiling: 4,500 m (14,800 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Disc loading: 41 kg/m² (8 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.21 kW/kg (0.13 hp/lb)

(Based off Mil-6)

South African Defense Force 1955

Leger (Army)
1x Elite Mechanized Infantry Division-Tempe
1x Elite Mechanized Infantry Division-Cape Town
1x Elite Mechanized Infantry Division-Salisbury
1x Elite Armored Division-Pietermartizburg
1x Elite Parachute Brigade-Lusaka
1x Elite Mountain Brigade-Mafeking
1x Elite Light Infantry Division-Walvis Bay
1x Airborne Special Forces Battalion-Messina
1x Artillery Unit-Tempe
1x Headquarters Unit-Tempe
1x Helicopter Transport Unit-Messina

Total Soldiers: 211,000

Staatpolitie (State Police)
3x Militia unit-nationwide

Luchtmacht (Air Force)
1x Mirage III Fighter Unit-Tempe
1x Elite Pilot-Tempe
1x B50 Superfortress-Kimberly
1x DC4 Transport- Kimberly
2x Average Pilot-Kimberly

Total Aircraft: 200

Oorlogsmarine (Navy)
5x Light Missile Cruisers-Simonstown, Durban
2x Destroyer Squadrons-Simonston, Durban
1x Amphibious Assault Unit-Durban
1x Coastal Patrol Group-dispersed

Total Warships: 55

6,750,000 tonnes shipping

A few notes on nuclear combat and combat in general

Civil Defense
Hardens civilian targets so that casualties and damage is reduced. Civilian casualties and production center damage is halved.

EMP and radiation effects
Every airburst of a nuclear weapon creates an electromagnetic pulse and radiation. Ground burst produce the most radiation, while airbursts create the most EMP.
For game purposes, the actual real knowledge of this is limited. However, a suitable plan presented to me will be judged based on my knowledge. For example, it is known that 1 megaton warhead detonated at 100,000 feet will fry most electronic circuits with 200 miles of the target. Bigger warheads, such as a 25 megaton weapon, could fry circuits up to 3,000 miles away. A lot of this is unknown (as it never happened) so this will require appropriate research and a certain amount of estimation when or if it comes up. Units and production centers hit by EMP are disrupted (damaged in the case of production centers, which require repair). Tech level 6 units and production centers are not affected by EMP, and tech level 7 units suffer less damage (range of the effect is quartered). Only at tech level 7.5, when integrated circuits become common, does this become really serious issue. Hardening circuits is very expensive, and requires retrofitting (3 points for every production center, increases the cost of military units by 25%).

Radiation causes fall out, and the extent of the fallout is as follows. Fallout will affect 100 miles for every 1 megatons used on a target (extends downwind). Weather such as rain will lessen this, will high temperatures will double the fallout pattern. This is a very, very simplified rule, but should give you an idea of how it works. Ground bursts doubles this distance. Any production center or military unit caught in the path of fallout is disrupted (military units) or damaged (production centers). Civil defense will have the effect of essentially reducing the casualties inflicted by fallout (figure HALF of the population in the fallout pattern will become major casualties, and half of those will die, civil defense reduces this by half as well).

Missiles:
Although capable in theory of hitting their targets in minutes instead of hours, they have issues.
1. Liquid fuel missiles: Require 10 hours to fuel (you can’t store the fuel permanently with the missile for technical reasons). Fueling is very observable by advanced spy satellites and spy planes (should one happen to by in line of sight of it). They cannot be launched until they fuel. This makes them vulnerable to a first strike or even a retaliatory strike under certain conditions.
2. Submarine launched missiles. Initially these are also liquid fueled, which means unlike land based missiles, they have the fuel aboard the missiles. This is risky, and they have to be carefully handled before and after each sortie of the submarine carrying them. This means there is a risk of accident (1D6 a year is rolled by the war moderator, and a 6 result means the owning nation loses a missile submarine at sea to accident. For reference, look up the loss rate of Soviet submarines during the historical Cold War).
3. Solid fuel missiles. This takes care of both of the problems listed above.
4. Missile reliability. Missiles of all types are highly complex machines prone to all kinds of technical problems. Deployed missiles never get all of the maintenance they need, but they usually get enough so that a portion of them will work when called on.
a. Liquid fueled ICBMs and large ICBMs have a 50% reliability rate (failure means they don’t launch, or launch and fail at some point in the boost stage or burn up during reentry. In case of a failure of 95% or higher they explode on launch taking out the launch facility).
b. Liquid fued IRBMs and MRBMs have a 60% reliability rate (see above).
c. Improved IRBMs have a 70% reliability rate (and catastrophic failure on 99 or better)
d. Solid fueled IRBMs and ICBMs have a 75% reliability rate (with the same catastrophic failure of 99 or 100)
e. Second generation missiles (such as the Minuteman II versus the Minuteman I) reduce their failure rate by 10%, which goes down another 5% for 3rd generation and then 2% for each missile design after that. They always have at least a 10% chance of failure (and 1% chance of catastrophic failure)
5. Missile accuracy. This is expressed as CEP (circular probability error). At tech level 6, this works out to be about 10 miles (in other words 50% chance of landing in a circle 10 miles in diameter). At tech level 7 it gets better.
a. 1st generation missiles always have a CEP of 10 miles (although with a big enough warhead this is less of a problem). These weapons are generally aimed at very large targets where a miss is close enough (ie: a city).
b. 2nd generation missiles have a CEP of 1 mile, meaning that they have a realistic chance of hitting a military base.
c. 3rd generation missiles have a CEP of 500 yards, meaning that they have a realistic chance of hitting a hardened missile silo.
6. Missile launch facilities. Hardened facilities, a missile silo, can only be destroyed by a direct hit. A 1st generation missile has a 1% chance of this, a 2nd generation has a 20% chance of this, and a 3rd generation missile has a 50% chance of this.
7. Fraticide. Although targeting multiple warheads at a single target sounds good in theory, the timing has to be exact otherwise the first detonation will wipe out all of the other warheads. 10% chance of success with 1st generation, improving to 50% with 2nd generation and 75% chance of success with 3rd generation (targeting systems do improve).
8. Refitting a missile is possible. At tech level 7, 2nd generation ICBMs can be upgraded at half the cost of replacing them completely (in essence, making them 2nd generation missiles). 2nd Generation missiles can be built after spending 12 points in research costs. 3rd generation missiles are possible at tech level 7.5 years after building 2nd generation missiles at the cost of 12 points of research. 4th generation missiles cannot be built until tech level 8.
9. Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles (MIRVS) require research. Each warhead rolls to hit however and this allows one missile to hit several targets in the same 100 mile area.
10. For convenience, the war moderator rolls missile reliability for each group of missiles, not for each missile. However, for fairness, accuracy for each nuclear warhead has to be rolled separately. A miss means the target is not damaged (although a really big city, like New York or London or Shanghai will suffer partial damage as their suburbs extend for many miles).
11. Results. A hit will destroy the target. In other words, a military base or missile silo is completely destroyed. A city suffers 100,000 casualties for each 50 kilotons of warhead used and will lose 1 production center for each 50 kilotons used. MIRVs attack multiple production centers in the same city by the way.

Information is based on James Dunnigan’s book “How to Make War.” 1983 edition, and the Journal of Concerned Scientists sourcebook used in a 1985 college course with updated internet research from same sources and additional ones.

Bombers
Can be intercepted. Air defense units or fighter interceptor units that make a successful attack either shoots down the attacking bomber unit or shoots down enough of the bombers to turn some back. In game terms, each nuclear armed bomber gets one nuclear target for each point of strike rating. This target can be attacked by up to 10 megatons for each strike value of a heavy or strategic bomber, and up to 20 kilotons for each strike value of a light bomber or fighter bomber. Bombers automatically hit, but if they are shot down, they only hit 1 target for every 4 points of strike rating and if aborted only get 1 hit for every 2 points of strike rating. 10 megatons automatically destroys all production centers in the city, and inflicts up to 10 million casualties (

Flak units
a. shoot down a light bomber or fighter bomber on a 2 in 6, abort it on a 3 or 4.
b. Shoot down a strategic or heavy bomber on a 1 in 6, 2 in 6 to abort.
c. Nuclear armed flak units (must have the appropriate technology) have their chance of success is doubled.
d. Nuclear armed interceptors have their attack strength increased by +5 against bombers.
e. guided missile cruisers and destroyers act as flak units of the same tech level
f. Wild weasel (defense suppression) aircraft reduce effectiveness of flak by -1
g. Tech level matters. -1 if defender is tech level 7 and attack tech level 7.5, and
-2 if tech level 8 versus tech level 7. This also works the other way (+1 or +2 if defender higher tech then attacker)
h. flak units can only defend one city each. Interceptors can reach any city within500 miles (short range), 750 miles (medium range) 1000 miles (long range) and this can be doubled by aerial refueling aircraft and increased by another 250 miles if supported by an airborne radar aircraft (like an S1 Tracer or E121)

Air to air combat and Naval Combat
Compare air defense value of attacking and defending fighter. Difference is a plus to the die roll to shoot down or abort enemy aircraft. Elite aircrews get a +2 to air combat and strike rolls, expert get a +1, and average gets no advantages. Air combat can be supported by airborne radar aircraft, gaining a +1 by a light radar plane (an S1) and a +2 by a heavier radar plane (a E121). Tech level also applies to air combat and strike rolls. Both the defender and attacker get to roll (which means they could shoot each other down). British and American, Canadian, and Australian naval units get a +2 in naval combat (successful history and most experience), German, Japanese, French, Italian, and Russian naval units get a +1 (not as successful history, but lots of experience), and all other naval units are considered average. (This will change over time as the situation warrants).

Air strikes
Each point of strike value provides a +1 to the strike roll. A 1d6 is rolled, and a 6 or better disrupts a unit, an 8 or better sinks a naval ship (lowest value target is destroyed first), and a 12 or better destroys a ground unit (headquarters units first, then mechanized units) and a 15 or better destroys ALL units stacked together (if land units) or up to 3 highest value naval units. Air units can be attacked on the ground and are treated as ground units for this purpose. Treat flak results and interception the same as for nuclear combat.

Air strikes that use chemical or biological agents have their strike rating increased by +1 for every level of agent being used (so a +6 for the type 6 agents for example).

Ground combat
Compare the combat strength of each side. Difference is a die roll modifier. A 1d6 roll is adjusted by the difference between the attacking and defending forces. Both the defender and attacker get to roll. On a 4 or better, the enemy unit is disrupted (and forced to retreat). On a 8 or better one enemy unit is destroyed and the rest disrupted, and on a 12 or better all enemy units are destroyed. Terrain such as cities, hills, jungles, wooded areas, swamps will give the defender a +1 to their roll and the attacker -2 to their roll. Terrain such as mountains, polar regions and fortifications will provide the defender a +2 to their roll and the attacker -4 to their roll. After rolling results, the surviving undisrupted units may choose to attack again, and headquarters units can also remove the disruption of surviving units as well so that they can attack again. A disrupted unit is -1 on their defense roll, and the attacker gets a +2 to their attack roll. Tech level differences and quality differences are the adjusted just like air and naval combat (adjustments to die roll).

A destroyed ground unit creates 10,000 casualties for game purposes (if a division) and 25,000 casualties for game purposes if a corps.

a reminder as this may come up soon

1954 US Military Deployments (includes forces added in 1954)
US Forces overseas
Iceland
15th Air Force (Iceland under a basing agreement)
48h Fighter Wing (F4C) 86th Airlift wing (C130) Reyklavik, 52nd Bomb Wing (F105) 92nd Air Refueling Wing (KC135)(Keflavik), 99th Bomb Wing (B47 Maritime strike version) plus detachments from 48th Fighter Wing (Thule Greenland)
2nd Infantry Division (Keflavik)

Russia
no permanent forces except advisors and airbase personnel

Western Pacific
12th Air Force (Philippines under a basing agreement)
35th Fighter Wing (F4C) 9th Refueling Wing (KC135) 35th Bomb Wing (F105), Clark field, Philippines, 18th Fighter Wing (F4C), 5th Strategic Recon Wing (RB47), Guam

Various detachments at Okinawa, Truk, Kwajalein, Eniwetok, Saipan, Wake Island, Midway, Tahiti, the Azores and the Aleutian Islands. Tankers are based in the Azores and Iceland. Airbases also retained at Sapporo (Japan), Okinawa, and Irkutsk (Russia)

US Coast Guard Pacific (based out of Guam, Hawaii and Tahiti)
10 destroyer escort sized Coast Guard Cutters

US Forces Pacific
25th Infantry Division (Schofield Barracks, Hawaii)
13th Air Force with 31st Fighter Wing (F101B, all weather) Hawaii,

14th Air Force with 3rd Fighter Wing (F101B, all weather) Alaska
10th Mountain Division (light infantry division) Fort Richardson, Alaska,

Pacific Fleet
Organized into the 7th Fleet (Western Pacific), 3rd Fleet (Eastern Pacific), 5th Fleet (Indian Ocean) and 1st Fleet (US West Coast)
Fleet carriers Constellation, Constitution (historical large Essex class)
Heavy carriers Ranger, Wasp, Hornet, Bon Homme Richard (historical Forrestal class)
Heavy carriers Abraham Lincoln, George Washington (historical Kitty Hawk class)
Missile Battleships Iowa, Missouri,
Guided Missile Cruisers San Diego, San Antonio, San Pedro, Duluth, Galveston, Los Angeles, Hampton, Biloxi
Escort Cruisers Concord, Richmond, Memphis, Chester, Pensacola, Salt Lake City, Houston, Northhampton
Helicopter Carriers Essex, Kitty Hawk,
2 USMC Helicopter units (1 assigned to helicopter carriers, other as a strategic reserve)
2 Fleet carrier air groups with F8U fighters, A4 light bombers, S2 Tracker ASW, S1 Tracer AEW aircraft and helicopters (100 aircaft)
6 Heavy carrier air wings (F8U fighters, A5 light bombers (nuclear capable), A4 light bombers, S1 Tracer AEW aircraft, S2 Tracker ASW aircraft, and helicopters (100 aircraft)
40 destroyers, 40 destroyer escorts, 20 submarines, 2 amphibious assault groups, 8 fast replenishment ships

Atlantic Fleet
consists of the 2nd Fleet (US East Coast), 6th Fleet (Mediterranean)
Heavy carriers Saratoga, Yorktown, Lexington, Valley Force (historical Midway class)
Fleet carriers Lake Champlain, America, Oriskany (historical large Essex class)
Missile battleships Wisconsin, New Jersey,
Guided Missile (light) cruisers Atlanta, Juneau, San Pedro, San Juan
Escort Cruisers Wichita, Tuscaloosa, Indianapolis, Augusta,
Helicopter Carrier Intrepid, Lake Erie
Nuclear Submarine Nautilus, Sailfish, Salmon, Seawolf, Grayback, Darter. Growler, Skate, Swordfish, Blueback, Bonefish, Sargo, Bonefish, Triton, Halibut,
30 destroyers, 30 destroyers escorts, 20 submarines, 2 amphibious assault groups, 6 fast replenishment ships
3 Fleet carrier air groups with F8U fighters, A4 light bombers, S2 Tracker ASW, S1 Tracer AEW aircraft and helicopters (100 aircaft)
4 Heavy carrier air groups with (F8U fighters, A5 light bombers (nuclear capable), A4 light bombers, S1 Tracer AEW aircraft, S2 Tracker ASW aircraft, and helicopters (100 aircraft)
1 USMC Helicopter unit (assigned to helicopter carriers)

Home Forces
NORAD (US/Canada defense of North America)
US Coast Guard West Coast
40 small (corvette size) USCG cutters, plus 2 USNR/USCG P2V maritime patrol wings
Royal Canadian Navy West Coast
40 corvettes
US Coast Guard East Coast
40 small USCG cutters, 10 large USCG cutters plus 4 USNR/USCG P2V wings
US Navy Reserve
4 Navy Reserve fleet carrier air groups (as above) plus minesweepers
Royal Canadian Navy East Coast
10 destroyers, 40 corvettes, plus 1 RCAF P2V Wings
Air Defense Forces North America
RCAF Forces plus
USAF 1 F101B all weather interceptor wing (4th), 2 F104 interceptor wings (33rd, 49th)
USANG / USAFR 5 F101B all weather interceptor wings (145th, 146th, 147th,148th, 149th

US Army Rapid Deployment Force
82nd Airborne Division (3 elite trained airborne brigades) Fort Bragg, NC,
101st Airborne Division (3 elite trained airborne brigades) Fort Campbell KY,
3rd Armored cavalry regiment (brigade sized, well trained) Fort Bliss, TX,
11th Armored cavalry regiment (brigade sized, well trained) Fort Knox KY,
10th Special Forces Group (elite) Fort Chaffee, AR
1st battalion / 75th Rangers (elite) Fort Lewis, WA
3 transport helicopter groups

US Marine Corps
1st Marine Division (2 amphibious light infantry, 1 amphibious mechanized brigades, well trained) Camp Pendleton, CA
1st MAW (A4 Skyhawk and Helicopters)(Miramar)
2nd Marine Division ((2 amphibious light infantry, 1 amphibious mechanized brigades, well trained) Camp Lejune, NC
2nd MAW (A4 Skyhawk and helicopters)(Norfolk)

US Army strategic reserve
6th Army (Presidio, San Francisco)
6th Infantry Division (Fort Ord)
2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment (Fort Irwin)
1 transport helicopter group

3rd Army (Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio)
3rd Infantry Division (mechanized) (Fort Stewart)
4th Infantry Division (mechanized)(Fort Benning)
9th Mechanized infantry division (Fort Riley),
1st and 2nd Armored Divisions (Fort Hood),
1st Cavalry Division (armor)( Fort Carson)
75th mechanized artillery group (Fort Sill),
97th mechanized flak group (Ft Bliss)
1 transport helicopter group

2nd Army (National Guard and Army Reserve East of Mississippi)
2nd Army Command (Fort Dix), 28th (PA NG), 29th (VA/MD NG), 30th (SC/NC NG), 42nd (NY NG) infantry divisions, 3rd Armored Division (NJ/DE NG), 4th Armored Division (TN/KY NG), 6 mechanized artillery groups (various states), 2 transport helicopter groups

5th Army (National Guard and Army Reserve West of Mississippi)
5th Army Command (Fort Polk), 35th Mechanized Division (MO/KS NG), 36th Mechanized Division (TX NG), 45th (OK/AR NG), 34th (MI/IN NG), 38th (WI/IL NG), 40th (CA NG) infantry divisions, 2 mechanized artillery brigades (various state), 2 transport helicopter groups

US Air Force strategic reserve
Strategic Air Command (Omaha)(2 B52D units, 2 B52C units, 4 KC97 units, 1 U2 unit plus 2 B47 units, 2 KC135 units overseas)
509th Bomb Wing (B52C)(Whiteman AFB), 7th Bomb Wing (B52C)(Ellsworth AFB), 9th Bomb Wing (B52D)(Plattsburg AFB), 28th Bomb Wing (B52D)(Castle AFB) 92nd Bomb Wing (B52D)(McCord AFB), 157th Bomb Wing (B52D)(Pease AFB), 91st Bomb Wing (B52C)(Barksdale AFB), 94th Bomb Wing (B52C)(Offut AFB), 1st Strategic Recon Wing (U2)(Pease AFB)
each B52 wing consists of 50 B52s and 50 tankers
44th Missile Wing (50 Titan missiles in hardened silos)(Davis Monthan AFB), 351st Missile Wing (50 Titan missiles in hardened silos)(Nellis AFB)

Tactical Air Command (Langley) (1 F4C unit, 6 F105 units, 2 B57 units, 2 tanker units plus 2 F105 units, 3 F4C units overseas)
1st Fighter Wing (F4C)(Langley AFB), 56th Fighter Wing (F105)(Luke AFB), 51st Fighter Wing (F105)(Castle AFB), 8th Fighter Wing (F105)(Nellis AFB), 33rd Fighter Wing (F105)(Luke AFB) 23rd Fighter Wing (F105)(Pope AFB) 27th Fighter Wing (F105) 366th Bomb Wing (B57)(Mountain Home AFB), 2nd Bomb Wing (B57)(Barksdale AFB), 190th Air Refueling Wing (KC97) (McConnel AFB), 43rd Air Refueling Wing (KC97)(Seymour Johnson AFB),

Airlift Command (Dover AFB) (1 C130, 1 C124, 1 C133, 2 C123, 5 C82, 1 C54 plus 1 C130 overseas)
374th Airlift Wing (C130) Pope AFB, 89th Airlift Wing (C54)(Andrews), 15th Airlift Wing (C54)(Hickem AFB), 189th Airlift Wing (C82)(Little Rock AFB), 60th Heavy Airlift Wing (C124)(Travis AFB), 436th Airlift Wing (C133)(Dover AFB), 43rd Airlift Wing (C82)(Pope AFB), 1st Special Operations Wing (C123)(MacDill AFB), 6th Special Operations Wing (C123)(San Juan AFB),

Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve (3 F100 fighter bomber wings, 6 F101B all weather jet fighter wings(assigned to NORAD) 6 B57 Canberra jet light bomber wings 6 KC50 tanker wings 4 C82 theater airlift wings 25 elite pilots
F100 Fighter Bomber Wings (assigned to TAC) 136th, 135th, 104th, 120th, 124th, 138th Fighter Wings

Special note
USAF Atlas ICBMs and all IRBMs have been removed from service.
US Navy is adding 2 SSNs a year at this time.

Smallest available US nuclear weapon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54
This weapon is being deployed aboard US Navy vessels for torpedo and SubRoc warheads, as well as assigned to special operations troops and used by the Army and Navy for artillery shells of 155, 175 and 203 mm guns.

larger weapons include 1 megaton warheads for the Titan missiles, and up to 10 megaton weapons carried by the B52s.

The US military will neither confirm or deny that nuclear weapons are stored at a base, carried by an aircraft or aboard a warship.

OOC very secret the US has 1,000 warheads of various types at this time (which is only a quarter of what it actually had in real life a decade after Hiroshima)

The US now has a small 10 ton nuclear (as in yield) warhead used for the Genie air to air missile and a larger 100 ton warhead that is being tested for new surface to air missiles.

a reminder as this may come up soon

I've got all the rules saved to my harddrive, but I'll add them to the front page anyway in case anyone wants to refer to them. Cheers.

USEA military report
Circa 1955


USEAA (Army):

-Central Strategic Army Command: [General Vo Nguyên Giap]
1x HQ Unit (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Elite]

-1st Army Group: [General Tran Van Tra]
1st Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Elite]
2nd Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Elite]
2x Ht-1 Jin Helicopter transport units (Saigon Military Acadamy)
2x Elite pilots (Saigon Military Acadamy)

-2nd Army Group: [General Sunan Mongkut]
3rd Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Elite]
4th Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Elite]
2x Ht-1 Jin Helicopter transport unit (Bangkok)
2x Elite pilot (Bangkok)

-3rd Army Group: [General Lon Nol}
1st Mechanized infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
2nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
1st Armoured Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
1st Mechanized Artillery Group (Xam Nua) [Elite]

-Saigon Aerial Defence Group:
1x Mechanized Flak group (Saigon) [Elite]

-Bangkok Aerial Defence Group:
1x Mechanized Flak group (Bangkok) [Elite]

-Army Pathfinders [General Van Tin Dungl
1st Special Airborne Brigade (Hanoi) [Hand picked]
1x C47 transport unit (Hanoi)
1x Elite pilot (Hanoi)


UIMC (Marines):

-1st Marine Response Unit: [General Sopheap Phirun]
1st Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang) [Elite]
2nd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang) [Elite]
1st Marine Mechanized Brigade (Nha Trang) [Elite]
2x Ht-1 Jin Helicopter transport units (Nha Trang)
2x Elite pilot (Nha Trang)

-2nd Marine Response Unit: [General Quy Vien Tu]
3rd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Elite]
4th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Elite]
2nd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Elite]
2x Ht-1 Jin Helicopter transport units (Louangphrabang)
2x Elite pilot (Louangphrabang)

-3rd Marine Response Unit: [General Vanna Klahan]
5th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Surat Thani) [Elite]
3rd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Elite]
4th Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Elite]
1x Ht-1 Jin Helicopter transport units (Surat Thani)
1x Elite pilot (Surat Thani)

-Marine Air Support Group: [General Phan Anh]
1st Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Nha Trang) {Currently attached to the USEAN serving on the two Nyugen Ai Quoc carriers)
1x Elite pilot (Nha Trang)


USEAAF (Airforce):

- 1st Air Superiority Group: [General Chu Van Tan]
1st Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage III fighter unit] (Vinh)
1x Elite pilot (Vinh)


USEAN (Navy):

-South China Sea Fleet: [Admiral Quy An Quang]
Nyugen Ai QUoc Heavy fleet carrier battle group (Cam Ranh)
Zhao Tou Light missile cruiser (Cam Ranh)
Lan Xang Heavy Missile cruiser (Cam Ranh)
1x light ship unit (10 destroyers) (Cam Ranh)
1x Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh)

-Andaman Sea Fleet: [Admiral Xue Wu Zhou]
Indochina Heavy fleet carrier battle group (Phuket)
Lac Long Quan Light missile cruiser {under construction} (Phuket)
Au Co Light missile cruiser {under construction} (Phuket)
1x Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Phuket)

-Northern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Pich Veasna]
1x light ship unit (40 corvettes) (Haiphong)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Haiphong)

-Southern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Leon Yann]
1x light ship unit (40 corvettes) (Bangkok)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Bangkok)

-Naval Transport Department:
2x Amphibious Assault Groups


Merchant Navy:

12,000,000 tons of shipping


IIA (Indnochinese Inteligiance Agency):

8,000 Anlysts
Ocean Trawlers


Nuclear weapons stockpile:
37 fission bombs

Shou class SSN:

Displacement: 3,070 tons surfaced / 3,513 tons submerged
Length: 84m
Beam: 12m
Speed:15 knots surfaced / 29 knots submerged
Test Depth:215m
Power Plant: 1x nuclear reactor, 2x steam turbines, 1x shaft
Armament: 4x 324mm torpedo tubes

Federal Army of Nigeria (FAN)

1st Army Group
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
-1st Armored Brigade
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division (Light Infantry)

Nigerian Maritime Defense Force

Coastal Patrol Force
Coastal Patrol Unit

High Seas Fleet
NSS Nigeria (Light Missile Cruiser)
Destroyer Flotilla
-NDD-1
-NDD-2
-NDD-3
-NDD-4
-NDD-5

British subs for reference:

Dreadnought class attack submarine:

Displacement: 3,500 tons surfaced/4,000 tons dived
Length: 265.7 ft (81 m)
Beam: 31.2 ft (9.8 m)
Draught: 25.9 ft (7.9 m)
Propulsion: One Rolls Royce / Westinghouse S5W reactor, two steam turbines, one shaft, 15000 hp (11 MW)
Speed: 20 knots surfaced/28 knots dived
Complement: 113
Armament: 6 x 21-in torpedo tubes (All located at the bow. 24 torpedoes in total)

Resolution class ballistics submarine:

Displacement: 7,500 tons surfaced, 8,400 tons dived
Length: 425 ft (130 m)
Beam: 33 ft (10.1 m)
Draught: 30 ft (9.1 m)
Propulsion: One shaft, One Rolls-Royce PWR1 nuclear reactor, two English Electric steam turbines producing 15,000 shp (11 MW), one backup diesel generator 4000 bhp (3 MW), two WH Allen turbo generators 3400 kW
Speed: 20 knots (37 km/h) surfaced, 25 knots (46 km/h) dived
Complement: 143 (two crews)
Armament: 16 x ballistic missiles (nuclear capable)
6 x 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes (All 6 located at the bow)

South Africa has mobilized two mechanized infantry divisions (based in Tempe and Salisbury) and one light infantry division (Walvis Bay) to "effect UN mandates in southern Africa." The 1st Mechanized Division from Tempe and 7th Light Division from Walvis Bay have been moved into Angola, where they are advancing on cities and towns in order to safely put into place South African officials. The Salisbury mechanized division has been placed on alert for possible action in Mozambique, but has not been moved yet.

Just in advance, so its been said.

In 1956 the Arab League will begin its first space missions. Syria will fund 2 unmanned suborbital rocket missions, and one animal mission (a chimp for the sake of argument) Other missions will be posted when confirmed. Launch facilities are in Socotra, Yemen.

A chimp? The AL needs to be more original. How about a camel or cat or something? That would give it more of an Arab feel. Also, will I need to invest any more next year or do we have enough stored up?

A camel might have trouble fitting. A cat would be interesting though. For missions, its 1 point apiece, you don't need to do any unless you want to. For research, we still have a long way to go on ICBMs (for orbital missions) and nuclear techs, so whatever you can spare is nice.

Intelligence Services around the world warn their governments that war is imminent between the Scandic Union and Germany as both are mobilizing.

Burgundy, Poland, the Netherlands, the Ukraine and Italy follow suit (ooc and the generals in France, Russia, and Belgium are urging the same)

The Balkans remain quiet, hoping noone will notice them if war spreads.

FNS Nuclear Submarines will begin deployments (Secretly of course) in the Northern Atlantic, and move into Scandic Waters, rebasing in several ports along the Norweigan Fjords and inside the Baltic Sea.

British Deployments

The Army

UK, Home Defence Duty:
1 HQ unit
1 highly trained mechanised field artillery unit
2 highly trained mechanised divisions
1 elite paratroop brigade
1 elite alpine brigade

Cyprus Peacekeeping Duty:
1 standard infantry division

German Stettin Base Duty (Subject to reaction of German government, may withdraw to UK):
1 highly trained armoured division

Colonial Duty:
1 HQ unit (Tanzania)
1 elite mechanised brigade of marines (Gibraltar)
1 highly trained mechanised division (Kenya)

Sierra Leone Special Detachment (to guard space launch facility)
1 standard infantry division

Royal Navy

Her Majesty's Naval Base Clyde, Faslane:
5 nuclear attack subs, 5 nuclear ballistics subs
Alongside required nuclear weapons, around 80 for use in subs and 40 spares for rearming.

Home Fleet
18 inch gun battleship: Vanguard
2 Heavy Carrier Battlegroups (HMS Ark Royal, HMS King George VI)
30 destroyers, 6 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
2 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher)
1 amphibious assault group
7 Light missile cruisers (HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth, HMS Birmingham, HMS Bristol, HMS Chatham, HMS Weymouth, HMS Nottingham)

Heligoland Special Detachment (to guard Queen Victoria Space Research Facility)
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10

Atlantic Fleet
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Vindictive)
20 destroyers, 4 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
2 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Effingham, HMS Cambrian)
2 Light missile cruisers(HMS Manchester, HMS Glasgow)

Caribbean Fleet
10 destroyers, 2 squadrons of 5.
80 missile boats, 2 groups of 40.
40 corvettes, 2 patrols of 20.

Mediterranean Fleet
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Hermes)
20 destroyers, 4 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
1 Heavy missile cruiser(HMS Ceres)
1 Light missile cruisers(HMS Birkenhead)
40 corvettes, 2 patrols of 20
80 missile boats, 2 groups of 40.

Pacific Fleet
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Eagle)
10 destroyers, 2 squadrons of 5.
20 frigates, 2 flotillas of 10.
2 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Centaur, HMS Caledon)

Indian Ocean Fleet
10 destroyers, 2 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
1 Heavy missile cruiser(HMS Carlisle)

Naval Reserves
Ships that have been mothballed are kept in drydock at Portsmouth and other naval bases until scrapped or recalled to service.
16 inch gun battleships: Temeraire, Conqueror, Thunder, Lion
15 inch gun battleships: Hood, King George V, Duke of York, Prince of Wales, Anson, Howe,
1 ASW carrier battlegroup (HMS Courageous, HMS Glorious, HMS Furious)

Fleet Air Arm (with carriers)
5 Sea Hawk Carrier Aircraft
5 elite naval aviation pilots

The Royal Airforce
3 EE Lightnings (3 in UK)
3 Gloster Javelin fighters (1 in Germany, 1 in Tanzania, 1 in Ghana)
3 Handley Page Victor air tankers (3 in UK)
2 Avro Vulcan Bombers (2 in UK)
3 C54 air transport (2 in UK, 1 in Germany)
2 E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft
1 E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft
2 U2 strategic recon aircraft
14 expert pilot units (with planes)

The Army Reserves
Mostly territorial army units (30 days training per year), yeomanry cavalry units which are now mechanised and ex-servicemen who are still on the reserves list.

1 mechanised artillery units
4 mechanised divisions
1 HQ unit
1 armoured divisions

The Merchant Navy
35 merchant shipping units
10 Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 20 Queen Mary sized ocean liners). Protection 2, range 5, speed 6,

Merchant Airforce

5 pilots
1 domestic airline
4 international airline

Other Defences

4 Flak artillery (Coventry, Dover, London, Scapa Flow)

ABC Weapons stockpile
Around 400 H bombs (10 - 15 megatons ),
Around 100 lesser boosted fission bombs (250 -400 kilotons)
recently developed tactical nuclear weapons (1-50 kilotons)

14 units of VX gas, stored at Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, Porton Down

15 points for silos for 150 large ICBMs (1MT yield, 10,000 mile range), in silos in UK
10 points for 240 improved IRBM missiles, Can carry up to 1 50 KT warhead. Can be carried aboard a ballistic missile submarine., 80 carried aboard 5 nuclear ballistic subs, plus a further 40 as spares. rest in silos around UK.

All ABC weapons are ready for installation into missiles once they are delivered.


UK Satellite Agency Program (UKSAP, For UK useage only)
Early Warning Satellite Network 6 points
Communications Satellite Network 6 points
Spy Satellite Network 6 points

Under Construction
Royal Navy modernisation Program
2 Nuclear Powered heavy carrier groups, 3 years build time remains
3 Nuclear Powered fleet carrier groups, jet capable, 3 years build time remains
12 Nuclear Powered Cruisers, 4 heavy missile, 4 light missile, 4 AA, (total cost 200 points, 111 spent so far, all started at the same time and so none will be finished until entire points cost paid).

The Russian Army and Airforce is mobilized in its entirety and ordered to prepare for the eventuality of war between the SU and Germany.


Army

1st Army Corps (Minsk)
- 1st Rifle Division
- 92nd Rifle Division
- 12th Mechanized Division (Elite Training)
--- Armored Brigade (Elite)

2nd Army Corps (Rostov)
- 5th Rifle Division
- 104th Rifle Division

4th Army Corps (Magadan)
- 52nd Rifle Division
- 9th Rifle Division

7th Army Corps (Chita)
- 23rd Rifle Division
- 85th Rifle Division
- 26th Mechanized Division (Elite Training)
--- Armored Brigade (Elite)

8th Army Corps (Novosibirsk)
- 3rd Rifle Division
- 31st Rifle Division
- 3rd Mechanized Division (Elite Training)
--- Armored Brigade (Elite)

10th Army Corps (Pskov)
- 22nd Rifle Division
- 50th Rifle Division
- 123rd Mechanized Division (Elite Training)
--- Armored Brigade (Elite)
--- Armored Brigade (Elite)


1st Mountain Corps (Pskov)
- 1st Elite Mountain Division
- 2nd Elite Mountain Division

Air Force

1st Air Force (Minsk)
- 1x Yak 25 (Expert Pilots)
- 1x Yak 28 (Expert Pilots)

2nd Airforce (Chita)
- 1x Yak 25 (Expert Pilots)
- 1x Yak 28 (Expert Pilots)
- 1x Air Transport (Average Pilots)

3rd Airforce (Pskov)
- 1x Yak 25 (Expert Pilots)
- 1x Air Transport (Average Pilots)

4th Airforce (Rostov)
- 1x Yak 25 (Expert Pilots)

Secret deployments:

The entireity of the British submarine force (10 nuclear subs) departs HMNB Clyde for the North Sea to start extensive patrols alongside others already there. They are nuclear armed, but not targetted.

The Home Fleet also puts to sea from Portsmouth and performs several large scale exercises within British waters.

U2s begin operating at high levels over British and international waters in the North Sea, in company with regular RAF units.

After overviewing the USEAA and UIMC's own battle experiance and that of other nations in the recent wars of this century, some high ranking strategists and generals are calling for light air-dropable vehicals to accompany airborne infantry and give much needed firepower.
Light Tanks such as the french built AMX-13 have been considered for this role.


OOC:
This would add light mechanized vehicles to my airborne units to be carried by tactical air transports and helicopters.

feel free to 'develop' either the M551 Sheridan or BMD as both show up around now

The USEA armanemts companies, Tian' do and Ban Toi develop two armoured vehicles for use in the UIMC and USEA.

The first is the a Main Battle Tank to replace the ageing WWIII american tanks currently used in the mechanized and armoured divisions and is manufactured by Ban Toi. The export version is called the BTV-VIII

General characteristics:
Name: Type-4 Xie MBT
Crew: 4 (commander, gunner, loader, driver)
Length: 6.45m
Width: 3.27m
Height: 2.40m
Weight: 36.6 tonnes
Armour: 203 mm
Main armament: 100 mm rifled gun
Secondary armament 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun, 12.7 mm hatch machine gun
Power plant: Yp-240 12-cyl. water-cooled diesel 520 hp (390 kW)
Suspension: torsion bar
Road speed: 48/50 km/h
Power/weight: 14 hp/tonne
Range: 500 km

The second is an Airborne Combat Vehicle designed by the Tian' do automobile works for use in the light infantry and airborne divisions.
The Type-5 ACV is not only amphibous and air dropable but one of the new Ht-4 Heavy transport helicopters can easily transport it, its crew and passengers to the battlefield.
The export version is the TDV-I


General characteristics:
Name: Type-5 Lao ACV
Crew: 3 (commander, gunner, driver) + 4 passengers
Length: 6.8 m
Width: 3.1 m
Height: 2.05 m
Weight: 9.8 tonnes
Armour: 20 mm
Primary armament: 73 mm gun
Secondary armament: 1 x 7.62mm machinegun, ATGM launcher
Power plant: Yp-180 V-6 diesel 240 hp (180 kW)
Suspension: torsion bar
Speed: 70 km/h road / 44 km/h off-road
Power/weight: 30 hp/tonne
Range: 320 km

Hey LR do you think I could combine both Ht-3s and Ht-4s into one unit so I can carry my ACVs as well?
Or will I have to buy a seperate Heavy transport helicopter unit.

In game terms, since we are using brigades mostly for airborne units, a transport helicopter unit can lift what is normally found in an airborne brigade (a few guns and vehicles).

At tech level 7.5, heavy transport helicopter units will be able to act as air transport units. In other words, reorganize units that are disorganized, but also airlift 2 brigades (instead of one) or 1 motorized airborne brigade (airborne troops with light armored vehicles and jeep type vehicles).

I added my military ranks to my newsthread (took the Iraqi ranks) if Egypt or any NPC Arab nation has the need to copy them in the future.

Current British Military Vehicles (for reference):

Centurion
Length 7.6 m
Width 3.39 m
Height 3.01 m
Weight 51 t
Speed 37 mph road
25 mph off-road
Range 450 km
Primary armament 105 mm L7 rifled gun
Secondary armament co-axial .30 cal Browning mg
Armour 152 mm
Power plant Rolls Royce Meteor
650 hp (485 kW)
Crew 4 (commander, gunner, loader, driver)

Conqueror
Length 39 ft 11.9 m
Width 13 ft 1 in 4.0 m
Height 10 ft 5 in 3.2 m
Weight 65 t
Speed 21 km/h road
Range 65 km
Primary armament L1 120 mm rifled gun
Secondary armament 2 x 7.62 mm machine Guns
Armour 178 mm
Power plant Rolls-Royce Meteor M120
810 hp (604 kW)
Crew 4

Ferret Scout Car
Length 3.7 m
Width 1.91 m
Height 1.88 m
Weight 3.7 t
Suspension 4 x 4 Wheel
Speed 93 km/h road
Range 306 km
Primary armament 7.62 mm MG
Power plant Rolls Royce B60 6-cylinder petrol
130 hp (97 kW)
Crew 2 (commander, driver)

Alvis Saracen Mk 1 Wheeled APC
Length 4.8 m
Width 2.54 m
Height 2.46 m
Weight 11 t
Suspension 6 x 6 wheel
Speed 72 km/h road
32 km/h off-road
Range 400 km
Primary armament 2 x machine gun
Secondary armament none
Armour 16 mm
Power plant Rolls-Royce B80 Mk.6A, 8 cyl petrol(119 kW)
Crew 2 + 9

Alvis Saladin Armoured Car
Length 4.93 m
Width 2.54 m
Height 2.39 m
Weight 11.6 t
Suspension 6 x 6 wheel
Speed 72 km/h road
32 km/h off-road
Range 400 km
Primary armament 76 mm
Secondary armament 2 x machine gun
Armour 32 mm
Power plant Rolls-Royce B80 Mk.6A, 8 cyl petrol
170 hp
Crew 3

Humber Pig Armoured Lorry
Length 4.93 m
Width 2.04 m
Height 2.12 m
Weight 7 t
Suspension Wheel 4x4
Speed 64 km/h road
Range 400 km
Primary armament 7.62 mm MG
Secondary armament none
Power plant Rolls-Royce B60 6-cyl petrol
120 hp
Crew 2 + 8 passengers

In Design Phase (date of production in this RP):

FV432 APC (1957), FV433 Abbot SPG (1960),

The above should hopefully serve as an aid to anyone who wants to design their own vehicles as well as a reference for any who wish to be equipped with British vehicles.

A note if you are building your own stuff: do not expect to make high quality modern equipment if you do not have a history of heavy manufacturing. take a look at British and US designs of the era, these will be the most technologically advanced around so I don't want to see anything better than these for the time being.

The above should hopefully serve as an aid to anyone who wants to design their own vehicles as well as a reference for any who wish to be equipped with British vehicles.

A note if you are building your own stuff: do not expect to make high quality modern equipment if you do not have a history of heavy manufacturing. take a look at British and US designs of the era, these will be the most technologically advanced around so I don't want to see anything better than these for the time being.

What about China? It has had a lot of heavy industry and manufacturing with the rebuilding of its economy, and I supposedly have good hi-tech aircraft courtesy of the Dassault company.

Besides, China will probably hit Tech Level 7.5 at roughly the same time as the US and UK (I already meet 3 out of 6 conditions now- nuclear tech, commercial satellites, and tourism industry... and electronics will be done by 1958 so I advance to Tech 7.5 by 1958, the same time the US and UK will).

Chinese vehicles will be of a high standard, but in terms of industrial experience China is still behind Britain and the US. It takes time for the developments labs to be working at the same level and the more time you have spent in the past on such tasks will reflect in your efficiency. Sure China has industrialised earlier in this RP than in real life, but the 2 centuries of development during and after the industrial revolution were not experienced in China as much in the UK (and hence US). The UK came out with the revolutionary MBT design and the 105mm gun, the US M46-60 range of tanks building on these successes.

Your vehicles will still be extremely good and much better than anything China could produce in RL at the time, but the UK and US are historical world leaders in this and other such fields and it'll take a lot to displace them. Even now after experiencing a slump during the 80's British industry can still produce top range military vehicles such as the Challenger series, innovative military technology such as composite Chobham armour and still has the most effective navy in the world (in my biased opinion) smaller, in terms of tonnage, only to the US navy (which has the same tonnage as the next 17 largest navies combined) and with the type 45 destroyer, the most advanced in the world.

China may well catch up in the future, but it has not been long enough yet for her technology to advance.

As everything's looking right now, China will hit tech level 7.5 at the same time as the US and UK, so essentially China will have the same electronics industry as the US and UK (as all 3 nations spend 5 years developing it).

So I can see China reaching parity / equality with the US and UK in terms of electronics, computers, etc. while lagging behind in military tech. However, with electronics, I can predict that China will catch up with the US and UK in terms of military for two reasons. First, I'm going to put forth incentives for Chinese businesses and industry to research and try hundreds of different designs, encourage competition between defense industries (like the US but on a bigger scale), and use electronics to help the effort. This is plausible, given that China has encouraged massive growth of businesses, economy, and such during the last 5 years (so that by 1960 or so, China will have enough defense industries and electronics companies to do the whole "defense contract bidding" competitions). The second reason is that China will have roughly the equal quality in computers and electronics as the US and UK. That means China can build or research same quality transistors, vaccuum tubes, computer monitors, laser systems, etc. What's more, by the 1960's the same concept which is going to happen to the military sector will happen to the electronics industry- competition between companies in terms of products and research like today's USA (competition between Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Rand Corporation, Raytheon, etc.)

The bottom line is that I can predict China being at electronic parity with the US and UK, and then reach equality / parity with them in other areas by the 1960's or so. Is this reasonable?

I'd say it depends on where you started. Japan and South Korea had remarkable technological growth considering the fact that they had little early industrialization. If you try to follow those nations' examples, it could work.

Germany's going to hit level 7.5 at the same time :)

1956 Arab League Space Program Launch Schedule
(note, all missions are suborbital Mercury-style missions)
January

Unmanned Mission funded by Syria
Unmanned Mission funded by Egypt

February
Unmanned Mission funded by Syria

These launches will be studied, and then the following launches will occur:

September
Animal Mission (cat) funded by Syria

October
Animal Mission (cat?) funded by Egypt

using analysis from these launches, human missions can begin as soon as January 1957

Quick Question:

is the 1 corps/4 divisions/12 brigades/6 air/naval units "per 5 million" or "per 5 million or part thereof" For example, what would a nation with 7 million people have for a maximum.

Also, how big is an HQ

Quick Question:

is the 1 corps/4 divisions/12 brigades/6 air/naval units "per 5 million" or "per 5 million or part thereof" For example, what would a nation with 7 million people have for a maximum.

Also, how big is an HQ

A HQ unit counts as a division sized entitity.

A nation with 7 million people would be able to have; 1 corps/ 6 divisions/ 18 brigades / 9 air/naval units

So its proportional, alright. Just wanted to get some clarification

So its proportional, alright. Just wanted to get some clarification

Yes it is proportional.

A HQ unit counts as a division sized entitity.

A nation with 7 million people would be able to have; 1 corps/ 6 divisions/ 18 brigades / 9 air/naval units

an HQ is a corps sized entity actually

Sharina, i'd be happy for electronic parity with the UK and US by tech 7.5 as that is what is required for tech progression, and I can accept parity in most other areas by the mid 60's, provided you put something into encouraging growth in these areas much like Korea and Japan post-WWII in RL.

All missiles start as 1st generation when built, but can be upgraded. 8.

At tech level 7, any generation ICBMs can be upgraded at half the cost of replacing them completely (making them next generation missiles). Though there are some research prerequisites described below.

2nd Generation missiles can be built after spending 12 points in research costs.

3rd generation missiles are possible at tech level 7.5, after building 2nd generation missiles, at the cost of 12 points of research.

4th generation missiles cannot be built until tech level 8.

I added the rules for upgrading missiles, so the combat rules now match the purchase and upgrade rules. Ie. upgrades on missiles are now possible.

its complicated being a superpower (military wise)

updated US military forces (in progress)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10836356&postcount=757

its also expensive (around 100 points just for the Air Force)

Thanks GB, i'm in the process of making mine easier to read and seperating the troops by deployment and detachments. Though I don't have as many as you! My entire budget is around 70 points, though my missiles take that up to 105, they're expensive things to keep around. Then there's the civil defence, radar, spy satellites, intel...

OOC: Did anyone roll for the AL Space missions (3 unmanned suborbital rocket, 2 animal) I think I posted the schedule a ways back.

US Military products available for export
surplus in 1956
3 units worth of B57 are available to any buyer (1 point each)
4 units of F100s are available to any buyer (1 point each)
2 units of KC97s are available to any buyer (1 point each)

US military equipment:
M14 rifles, M48A5 tanks, HAWK surface to air missiles,

the C130 is available for export sale, a tanker version, the KC130 is also available

The Boeing company also eagerly is selling the Boeing 707 and the Douglas company is selling the DC8 (jet passenger airliners)

beginning 1957
F4C Phantom II available for sale to Australia, Canada, UK, South Africa, Oman, Morocco, Belgium, Netherlands, Ireland, FNS, Philippines, Turkey, Central Asian Republic, Kashgaria,

In development is the Avro Arrow (joint US / Canadian project) and the F108 is postponed for now.

Also in development is the M60 tank, to replace the current M48A5

Beginning 1959 the UH1 utility / transport helicopter will be available for export sale (to the same nations at the F4C)

In other developments, the US test fires the Minuteman missile (Pacific Test Range) and the Polaris IRBM (which can be launched via submarine). Neither are ready yet however.

The first test Gemini spacecraft also begins testing

OOC: Did anyone roll for the AL Space missions (3 unmanned suborbital rocket, 2 animal) I think I posted the schedule a ways back.

check with Lesser Ribenia

GB, would you quietly sell FNS any Arrows, HAWK SAMs, M60's (when available), C130, M14's, and the UH1?

GB, would you quietly sell FNS any Arrows, HAWK SAMs, M60's (when available), C130, M14's, and the UH1?

on the time schedule indicated (US/Canadian needs come first)

OOC: Did anyone roll for the AL Space missions (3 unmanned suborbital rocket, 2 animal) I think I posted the schedule a ways back.

No I didn't. People usually TG me their launches and this must have got buried in a load of other posts. I'll TG you the results now.

Obsolete units
Maintenance expenses are increased for these units as they are no longer in production or require much higher manpower requirements then more modern units (or both)
Ships
Ocean liner unit (2 ocean liners) cost 10 points, maintenance 1
construction time 2 years, can carry up to 6 light infantry brigades or 2 light infantry division or 1 conventional unit anywhere in 2 months.
(The airline industry is driving the ocean liner out of business and cruise ships are a completely different type of ship)

Battleship (16 inch guns) consists of 1 battleship. Cost 20 points, maintenance 3 points, construction time 4 years.
Battleship (18 inch guns) consists of 1 battleship, Cost 24 points, maintenance 3 points, construction time 5 years.
Obsolete battleship (anything built prior to Third Great War), cannot be built, maintenance 2 point
Heavy cruiser (8 inch gun) consists of 1 ship. Cost 8, maintenance 1 points, construction time 3 years.
Light cruiser (6 inch) consists of 1 ship. Cost 7, maintenance 1 points, construction time 3 years.
Submarine group (10 older submarines) cost 5, maintenance 1 construction time 1 year

Aircraft
out of production and parts are difficult to come by, increasing costs
Cost 1 (surplus), maintenance 1
F51 Mustang air combat 2, strike rating 2 range long (US) out of production
Mosquito air combat 1, naval strike rating 2, strike rating 4, range long (UK)
AJ-1 Savage air combat 1, naval strike rating 3, strike 3, range medium (heavy carrier capable, nuclear capable) (US)
C54 / DC4 air combat 0, can airlift 2 brigades or airdrop 1 brigade, range long, cost 3, maintenance .5 (US) out of production
Handley Page Hastings air combat 0, can airlift 2 brigades or airdrop 1 brigade, cost 3, maintenance .5, range long, can refuel by air (UK)
Arado Ar 232 air combat 0, can airlift 1 brigade or airdrop 1 brigade, range long, cost 2, maintenance .25, (Germany)
SM95 air combat 1, can airlift 2 brigades or air drop 1 brigade, range long, cost 2, maintenance .25 (Italian)
F84 Thunderstreak air combat 4, strike rating 3, range medium (US) out of production
FH2 Banshee, air combat 5, strike rating 3, range short, carrier capable (US) F11F Tiger, air combat 8, strike rating 3, range short, carrier capable (US)
F86E Saber, air combat 7, strike rating 1, range medium, (US) F86D Saber, air combat 6, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather capable (US)
ME –17 Scimitar, air combat 6, strike rating 2, range short (Colombia)
Vampire Mk 3 air combat 3, strike rating 3, range medium (UK)
Venom air combat 6, strike rating 1, range short (UK)
Sea Hawk air combat 5, strike rating 2, range short (UK)(carrier capable)
F9F Cougar air combat 5, strike rating 3, range medium (US)
Meteor V air combat 4, strike rating 3, range medium (UK)
F80 Shooting Star air combat 3, strike rating 2, range medium (US)

Cost 2 (surplus) maintenance 2
B50 Super Fortress (a variant of the B29 with better engines and range), air combat rating 3, strike rating 8, nuclear capable, all weather capable, range: long can refuel by air (US)
PB4Y air combat rating 1, naval strike rating 5, strike rating 4, all weather capable, maritime patrol aircraft cost 4, maintenance cost 1 (US)
F101A Voodoo escort fighter, air combat 11, strike 2, range long, (US)

Not available (all scrapped)
B36D Peacemaker (10 engine variant of B36, carried out nuclear attacks on Russia), air combat rating 4, strike rating 10, all weather and nuclear capable, range intercontinental , cost: 5 maintenance cost 2 (US) out of production

coming soon

Air Forces

Important Note: Maintenance does not upgrade aircraft, it simply keeps them flying. You have to buy new aircraft to get new aircraft, unless it is a simple improvement of the same type (B model replaced by C model for example).

Pilots:

You must have one pilot unit per aircraft unit in order to operate the aircraft. You can have more or less if you chose to do so.

Average pilots: cost: 2 points, maintenance free, training time 6 months
Expert pilots: cost: 2 points, maintenance .25, training time 1 year
Elite pilots: cost: 4 points, maintenance .5 points, training time 2 years

Other Notes

Aircraft represent 100 fighters, light bombers or fighter bombers; 50 medium, heavy or strategic bombers; 50 maritime patrol aircraft or 50 transport aircraft.
Short range aircraft are capable of reaching the front line and a few miles beyond it (about 500 kilometers or less)
Medium range aircraft can conduct longer ranged operations up to 1000 kilometers
Long range aircraft can fly up to 2000 kilometers
Intercontinental range aircraft can fly up to 10,000 kilometers
Tanker units can be paired up with an air unit to increase its range by one (short to medium for example).
aircraft that are out of production cannot be purchased as new (although perhaps surplus aircraft are available if you ask nicely the nation that had them), only maintained

Piston, turboprop and mixed jet/piston engine aircraft
Fighter bombers and single engine light bombers cost 1 point, maintenance .25 pointsF51 Mustang air combat 2, strike rating 2 range long (US) out of production
AD1 Skyraider air combat 1, naval strike rating 6, strike rating 4, range short (carrier capable) (US)

patrol planes and bombers cost 2 points, maintenance .25 points
S2 Tracker ASW carrier based aircraft air combat 3, strike 4, range long ASW/All weather capable (US)
Avro Shackleton air combat 2, naval strike 4, strike rating 2, range long, ASW/all weather capable, (UK)
P2V Neptune air combat rating 2, naval strike rating 5, strike rating 2, range medium, all weather capable, maritime patrol aircraft (US)
Beriev Be-6 air combat rating 2, naval strike rating 3, strike rating 1, maritime patrol aircraft, flying boat (Russia)

Transport aircraft
C82 Flying Boxcar air combat 0, can airlift 1 light division or paradrop 1 brigade, range medium, cost 2, maintenance .25, can refuel by air (US)
C124 Globemaster air combat 0, can airlift 2 light divisions. cost 4 Range intercontinental, maintenance cost .5 (US)
C123 Provider theater transport air combat rating 1, range medium cost 2, maintenance cost .5 (US)
C130 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can carry 1 light infantry brigade (US)
C133 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can reorganize up to 2 aircraft and / or IRBM/ICBM missile units (US)
An12 air combat 2, strike 0, range medium (comparable to C130) (Russia)
Add the following effective 1953
An 12 Cub air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can carry 1 light infantry brigade (Russia)
HT-80 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can carry 1 light infantry brigade (USAE)
TU 107 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can carry 2 light infantry brigades or 1 infantry brigade or paradrop 1 parachute brigade (SU)

Tanker aircraft
KC97 tanker air combat 0, range long , cost 3, maitnenance cost .5 (US)

Airborne Early Warning Aircraft
AEW warning aircraft can be constructed using any 2 or 4 engined transport aircraft .. costs 24 points to research and develop the radar systems. No more then 6 points a year can be spent however (time is an issue, not just the money). The US and British developed AEW aircraft during the Third Great War and already have them, and can choose to provide that technology to allies.

The US will do so to Australia, Canada, Gran Colombia and Russia. (which means they can build their own, or buy American).

Classify Airborne Early Warning aircraft as AEW aircraft for game purposes. These aircraft are generally spread around, and 1 unit will support 15 air units plus 10 flak units.

E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft
cost 3 points, maintenance 1 point, 1 unit provides sufficient aircraft for up to 20 carriers (provides better radar protection for carriers that have them, and reduces the ability of the enemy to find those same carriers by using the radar emissions of the carrier against it)
EA12 airborne early warning aircraft (Russia) (converted transport)
ETU95 (Scandic Union)(converted bomber)
E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft cost 3 points, maintenance 1 point, 1 unit provides sufficient aircraft to provide an intelligence bonus and supplements RADAR. (US, the FNS is also able to convert Constellation transport planes to this type)

Jet Aircraft
(note changes in some aircraft details)
Jet fighters, fighter bombers and interceptors cost 2, maintenance .5
F100 Super Saber air combat 8, strike rating 2, range medium, (US)
Gloster Javalin aircombat 8, strike rating 1, range long (UK) all weather
Mig 17 air combat 7, strike rating 1, range short, all weather (Poland)
Mig 19 air combat 8, strike rating 1, range short (Poland)
Dassault Mystere IV air combat 7, strike rating 2, range medium (China/France)
TA200 air combat 9, strike rating 1, range medium, all weather (Germany)

3rd Generation Jet fighters and light bombers Cost 3, maintenance 1
F101A Voodoo escort fighter, air combat 11, strike 2, range long, (US)
F101B Voodoo all weather interceptor air combat 10, strike 1, range long (US)
F104 Starfighter interceptor, air combat 11, strike 1, range short (US)
M107 fighter, air combat 9, strike 3, range medium, (Colombia)
SU7 Fighter bomber air combat 9, strike rating 3, range short (Russia)
BAC Lightning air combat 12, strike rating 2, range short (UK)
Dassault Mirage IIIC air combat 13, strike rating 2, range medium (France/China)
Dassault Mirage IIIE air combat 10, strike rating 4, range medium, all weather, (France/China)
F8U Crusader, air combat 13, strike 1, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Mig21 interceptor air combat 12, strike rating 1, range short (Poland)
Su-9 interceptor air combat 12, strike rating 1, range medium (Russia)
Su-11 all weather interceptor air combat 11, strike rating 1, range medium (Russia)
Yak 25 air combat 11, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (Russia)
A5 Vigilante air combat 9, strike 2, range long, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1, nuclear capable (US)
F4 Phantom, air combat 13, strike 4, range medium, carrier capable, cost 3, maintenance 1 (US)
Saab J35 Draken air combat 13, strike 2, range medium, all weather interceptor (strike version air combat 11, strike 4) (SU)
Avro Arrow air combat 13, strike 1, range long, all weather interceptor (US/Canada)
Hal Marut air combat 11, strike 3, range medium, (assumes better engines are developed) (India)
TA202 all weather interceptor air combat 12, strike 1, range short, all weather cost 3, maintenance .5 (Germany)

light jet bombers cost 3, maintenance .5 (cost 2 if single engine)
IL28 (Hong 5) medium bomber air combat 5, naval strike 1, strike rating 5, range medium (Korea)
B57 Canberra medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 6, range medium (US/UK)
Tu14 medium bomber air combat 5, strike rating 6, range medium (Sweden), can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)
F105 light bomber light bomber, air combat 9, strike rating 5, range medium (US) can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 3)(single engine)
A4 Skyhawk carrier light bomber , air combat 7, strike rating 4, range medium (US)(single engine)
Do- 337 light bomber, air combat 8, strike rating 4, range medium, (Germany)
Yak 28 air combat 10, strike 4, range long, nuclear capable (Russia)
Saab Lansen air combat 9, strike 3, range medium, (cost 2, maintenance .25) (SU)
A5 Vigilante air combat 8, strike 4 (nuclear capable, all weather), range medium, all weather nuclear strike capability (US) (single engine)
Fiat G.91 (Italy) air combat 6, strike rating 3, range short (Italy) Single engine
TA183D air combat 6, strike rating 2, range medium (Germany) single engine
Hawker Hunter air combat 8, strike rating 3, range medium (UK) single engine
Su 5 air combat 6, strike rating 3, range short (Russia) single engine
Mig 15bis air combat 6, strike rating 2, range short (Poland) single engine
Dornier JB-2 air combat 7, strike 3, range medium, nuclear capable, (Germany)
Backburn Buccaneer air combat 9, strike 4, range medium, nuclear capable, all weather, can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4) single engine
Mirage IV air combat 9 (defense only), strike 5, range medium, nuclear capable, all weather, can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 3), (China, France)
L29 air combat 8, strike 3, also a useful trainer aircraft (Czechslovakia)

heavy jet bombers cost 4, maintenance 1
Tu 16 (Badger) heavy bomber air combat 4, strike rating 7, range long (Sweden)(nuclear capable)(can carry anti ship missiles, naval strike 9)
RB47 heavy bomber, air combat 10, strike rating 5, range long (US)(nuclear capable) can carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 4)
Vickers Valiant Heavy bomber air combat 5, strike rating 8, range long (UK)(nuclear capable)
Tu 22 heavy bomber, air combat 10, strike rating 5, range medium, nuclear all weather capable, can carry carry anti ship missiles (naval strike 5) (SU)

Jet strategic bombers cost 6, maintenance 2
(all are nuclear capable, all weather, and air combat rating is defense only)
B52C Stratofortress, air combat 8, strike rating 12, range intercontinental
(US)(nuclear capable)
B52D Stratofortress air combat 9, strike rating 12, range intercontinental (US)
B52G Stratofortress air combat 12, strike rating 15, range intercontinental, , US, cruise missile capable
B58 Hustler air combat 13, strike rating 8, range long, , US
TU95 Bear air combat 7, strike rating 10, range long, Scandic Union), cruise missile capable
Avro Vulcan air combat 8, strike 8, range intercontental, (UK)
China Aviation Kirin air combat 8, strike 9, range long, (China)
Tanker aircraft
Lincoln Tanker air combat 1, range long, cost 3, maintenance .5 (UK)
Handley Page Victor air combat 4, strike 0, range long, can refuel 1 strategic bomber or 2 other air units (UK)
KC135 air combat 2, strike 0, range long, can refuel 1 strategic bomber unit or 2 other air units (US)
China Aviation Kirin also available in a tanker version (Lamsong tanker)
air combat 5, strike 0, range long, can refuel 1 strategic bomber or 2 other air units

Intelligence Gathering Aircraft Units
U2 strategic recon aircraft
air combat 10 (defense only), strike 0, range intercontinental, all weather intelligence gathering unit. Improves strategic intelligence gathering ability.

Helicopter Units
tech level 7 Helicopter units cost 2, maintenance .25
(can lift 1 light infantry, alpine, marine light infantry or airborne brigade)

At tech level 7.5 helicopter units are four types
Transport cost 2, maintenance .25, can lift 1 light infantry, alpine, marine light infantry or airborne brigade. Air combat 1, Range short
ASW cost 2, maintenance .25, 1 unit provides helicopters for up to 50 surface warships (providing a +1 bonus to ASW combat) or can be spread around on carriers (groups of 4, 12 or 24 usually providing a +1, +2 or +3 depending), air combat 1, anti ship 1, range short
Gunship cost 2, maintenance .25, air combat 2, strike 2, range short
Cargo cost 2, maintenance .25, air combat 0, range short, can reorganize ground units like an HQ (1 unit per cargo helicopter unit) or carry 2 light infantry type units

Coming soon
DO 400 fighter bomber (use Mirage F1 as basis) not available until 1960 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_F1
air combat 12, strike 3, range medium, all weather capable, cost 3, maintenance .5
Mirage V fighter bomber air combat 13, strike 4, all weather capable, cost 3, maintenance .5 (France/China) 1961
A7 light bomber air combat 10 (defense only), strike 5, naval strike 5, all weather capable, cost 3, maintenance .5 carrier capable (US) 1960
Su 17 light bomber air combat 8 (defense only), strike 4, naval strike 2, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Russia) 1959
Pucara light bomber (turbo prop) air combat 6, strike 3, naval strike 1, STOL capable, cost 1, maintenance .25 (FNS) 1959
Jaguar light bomber air combat 10 (defense only), strike 4, naval strike 3, cost 3, maintenance .5, all weather capable, can launch anti ship missiles, (FNS) 1961
HAL Kiran light bomber / trainer, air combat 7, strike 2, naval strike 2, cost 3, maintenance .5 (Pakistan)
SR71 Blackbird air combat 20 (defense only), strike 0, range intercontinental cost 10, maintenance 5, all weather intelligence gathering aircraft 1957 (US)
F12 Blackbird air combat 16, strike 0, range long, cost 10, maintenance 5, all weather interceptor version 1958 (US)
A12 Blackbird air combat 18 (defense only), strike 4, range intercontinental, cost 10, maintenance 5, all weather nuclear strike only 1958 (US)
MIG25 air combat 14, strike 0, range medium, cost 3, maintenance .5, all weather interceptor / intelligence gathering aircraft (Poland / Ukraine)

denotes new information

anti ship missile capability becomes relevent at tech level 7.5

strategic and heavy bomber units and twin engine bomber units, plus all transports, patrol planes are units of 50 aircraft
fighters and fighter bombers are units of 100 aircraft

ooc: Sweet the Jaguar!! What about my jet bomber, GB? And gat'dang I dunno which Blackbird to buy..

I figure if my Bomber turns out to be good enough, I may buy a unit of A12's.

ooc: Sweet the Jaguar!! What about my jet bomber, GB? And gat'dang I dunno which Blackbird to buy..

I figure if my Bomber turns out to be good enough, I may buy a unit of A12's.

jet bomber is having major development difficulties (ooc, its not a good aircraft and is pushing the tech level too far)

The A12/F12/SR71 probably won't be for sale. The F12/A12 probably won't even be deployed (missiles are a lot cheaper for nuclear attack, and unless someone builds a B70 type bomber, the US doesnt need a Mach 4 interceptor)

The SR71 will probably have Australian, Colombian and Canadian pilots as well as US pilots (its a useful trainer for astronauts in addition to its military duties)

GB go on Chatzy. You know which Chatzy Im talking about.

I would like to ask about the Use of Helicopter Transports. Can I direct Dassault or any other French avation company (What else do I have By the Way?) to work on such transports or any other transports?

I would like to ask about the Use of Helicopter Transports. Can I direct Dassault or any other French avation company (What else do I have By the Way?) to work on such transports or any other transports?

sure

I have updated the front page with GB's new info. It should also be easier to find and understand things now as well with a slight change in some wordings and formatting.

Cheers GB.

Now back to the reorganisation of my own military...

Creation of the Pakistani Foreign Legion

The Government of Pakistan, seeking to create an elite quick-response force, has ordered the creation of the Pakistani Foreign Legion. While most of its commissioned officers are Pakistani, approximately 10% are former legionnaires who have risen through the ranks. The rest of the Legion is to be made up of men from a wide variety of nationalities, with Pakistani citizens representing 30-40% of the legionnaires.

Legionnaires can choose to enlist under a pseudonym ("declared identity") and a declared citizenship. This disposition exists in order to allow people who want to turn over a new leaf in their life to enlist. Pakistani citizens can enlist under a declared, fictitious, foreign citizenship (generally, a commonwealth one). After one year, legionnaires can regularize their situation under their true identity.

After serving in the Legion for three years (out of a five-year initial enlistment), the legionnaire is allowed to apply for Pakistani citizenship. Furthermore, a soldier harmed in combat for Pakistani is also allowed to apply for French citizenship under a provision known as "Pakistani by spilt blood."

Would it be possible for Korea to buy an unit of Avro Arrows? They seem pretty sweet, and they would fit our needs at the moment.

You'll have to enquire on the USA thread or else ask the Canadians (NPC thread) for the production run.

Would it be possible for Korea to buy an unit of Avro Arrows? They seem pretty sweet, and they would fit our needs at the moment.

why do you need a long range interceptor? I would think medium or short would suffice... your nation isn't that big compared to Canada, US or Russia, who need interceptors with long range.

why do you need a long range interceptor? I would think medium or short would suffice... your nation isn't that big compared to Canada, US or Russia, who need interceptors with long range.

OOC: Well, I kinda like the Arrow in RL-consider it an affinity for a project that should have really been. ICly, it has good all weather performance and air combat stats-a good defensive unit that meets the needs of the Korean Air Force. Though if the US was willing to sell Phantoms...

The Luftwaffe, after purchasing several TA 202s, is selling 18 TA 200s for a reduced price. Please contact the Luftwaffe if you wish to purchase them.

British Forces (taking into account 1957 builds)

The Army 12.75 points

British Army Strategic Reserve Assets (BASRA) (regular troops)
1 HQ unit
1 highly trained mechanised field artillery unit
3 highly trained mechanised divisions
1 highly trained armoured division
4 Flak artillery groups

British Expeditionary Force (BEF) (regular troops)
1 HQ unit
1 elite mechanised brigade of marines
1 elite paratroop brigade
1 elite alpine brigade
1 helicopter transport and pilot

Territorial Army (TA) (reserves)
1 HQ unit
1 mechanised artillery units
2 mechanised divisions
1 armoured divisions
2 infantry divisions

Deployment and Composition

BASRA
Headquarters staff
Royal Artillery Support Detachment
1st (guards mechanised) division -1st, 2nd and 3rd (mechanised) brigades, 2bns Grenadier Guards, 2bns Coldstream Guards, 2bns Irish Guards, 2bns Welsh Guards, 2bns Scots Guards. 10 battalions total.

2nd (mechanised) division, 4th, 5th, 6th (mechanised) brigades, 1bn Royal Scots Borderers, 1bn Royal Highland Fusiliers, 1bn The Black Watch, 1bn Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 1bn The Seaforth, Gordon and Cameron Highlanders, 1bn South Wales Borderers, 1 bn The Welch Regiment, 1bn Royal Welch fusiliers, 1bn Monmouthshire Regiment, 9 battalions total.

3rd (mechanised) division, 7th, 8th, 9th (mechanised) brigades, 2bns Prince of Wales's Own, 2bns The Green Howards, 2bns The Duke of Wellington's Regiment, 2bns Queen's Lancashire Regiment, 1bn Queen’s Royal Border Regiment, 9 battalions total.

4th (mechanised) division, 10th, 11th, 12th (mechanised) brigades, 2bns Cheshire Regiment, 2bns Worcestershire Regiment, 2bns Sherwood Foresters, 2bns Staffordshire Regiment, 1bn Yorkshire Regiment. 9 battalions total.

5th (mechanised) division, 13th, 14th, 15th (mechanised) brigades, 2bns The Royal Sussex Regiment, 2bns Middlesex Regiment, 2bns Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment, 2bns East Anglian Regiment, 1bn Queen's Own Buffs, 9 battalions total.

6th (armoured) division, 16th, 17th, 18th (armoured) brigades, 2bns Queen’s Dragoon Guards, 2bns Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, 1bn Royal Dragoon Guards, 1bn Queen’s Royal Hussars, 1bn Royal Lancers, 1bn Light Dragoons, 1bn Queen’s Royal Lancers. 9 battalions total.

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th flak artillery groups, armed with various SAM missiles in addition to some conventional weaponry.

Deployment

London- HQ (Northwood Headquarters) , 1st division, 1st flak artillery group
Colchester- 2nd division, 2nd flak artillery group
Aldershot- 6th division
Kenya- 4th division, 3rd flak artillery group
Scapa Flow- 4th flak artillery group
Gabon- 5th division
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland- 3rd division (dispersed into battalions)

BEF
Headquarters Staff
1st (Royal Marine Mechanised) Independent Brigade, 3bns of Royal Marine Mechanised Infantry
2nd (Air Assault) Independent Brigade, 3bns of 1st Air Assault Infantry Regiment
3rd (Royal Ghurkha Rifles) Independent Brigade, 3bns of the Royal Ghurkha Rifles Regiment
1st Army Air Transport Support Detachment, Westland Wessex helicopters and pilots

Deployment
All stationed at various points around the UK in their regimental and brigade barracks, ready to react to a full call up and cancellation of leave within 24 hours.

TA
Headquarters Staff
TA Artillery Detachment
1st, 2nd, TA (Mechanised) divisions
3rd TA (Armoured) division
4th and 5th TA (infantry) divisions

Deployment
Each regular regiment has one or two TA battalions attached to it for training purposes and to maintain “esprit de corps”. Maintained at various points around the UK in regional and local barracks.

Service and Logistics Corps

Royal Army Chaplains‘ Department
Royal Corps of Transport
Royal Army Medical Corps
Royal Army Ordnance Corps
Corps of Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers
Corps of Royal Military Police
Royal Army Pay Corps
Royal Army Veterinary Corps
Small Arms School Corps
Military Provost Staff Corps
Royal Army Educational Corps
Royal Army Dental Corps
Royal Pioneer Corps
Intelligence Corps
Army Physical Training Corps
Army Catering Corps
General Service Corps
Queen Alexandra’s Royal Army Nursing Corps
Women’s Royal Army Corps

Royal Navy 35.5 points

Strength

5 nuclear attack subs,
5 nuclear ballistics subs
18 inch gun battleship: Vanguard
2 Heavy Carrier Battlegroups (HMS Ark Royal, HMS King George VI)
100 destroyers, 18 squadrons of 5.
70 frigates, 7 flotillas of 10.
9 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher, HMS Effingham, HMS Cambrian, HMS Ceres, HMS Centaur, HMS Caledon, HMS Carlisle)
1 amphibious assault group
10 Light missile cruisers (HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth, HMS Birmingham, HMS Bristol, HMS Chatham, HMS Weymouth, HMS Nottingham, HMS Manchester, HMS Glasgow, HMS Birkenhead)
3 Fleet carrier battlegroups (HMS Vindictive, HMS Hermes, HMS Eagle)
120 missile boats, 3 groups of 40.
80 corvettes, 4 patrols of 20.

Deployment

Her Majesty's Naval Base Clyde, Faslane:
5 nuclear attack subs, 5 nuclear ballistics subs
Alongside required nuclear weapons, around 80 for use in subs and 40 spares for rearming.

Home Fleet
18 inch gun battleship: Vanguard
2 Heavy Carrier Battlegroups (HMS Ark Royal, HMS King George VI)
30 destroyers, 6 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
2 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher)
1 amphibious assault group
7 Light missile cruisers (HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth, HMS Birmingham, HMS Bristol, HMS Chatham, HMS Weymouth, HMS Nottingham)

Heligoland Special Detachment (to guard Queen Victoria Space Research Facility)
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10

Atlantic Fleet
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Vindictive)
20 destroyers, 4 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
2 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Effingham, HMS Cambrian)
2 Light missile cruisers(HMS Manchester, HMS Glasgow)

Caribbean Fleet
10 destroyers, 2 squadrons of 5.
40 missile boats, 1 group of 40.
40 corvettes, 2 patrols of 20.

Mediterranean Fleet
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Hermes)
20 destroyers, 4 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
1 Heavy missile cruiser(HMS Ceres)
1 Light missile cruisers(HMS Birkenhead)
40 corvettes, 2 patrols of 20
80 missile boats, 2 groups of 40.

Pacific Fleet
1 Fleet carrier battlegroup (HMS Eagle)
10 destroyers, 2 squadrons of 5.
20 frigates, 2 flotillas of 10.
2 Heavy missile cruisers(HMS Centaur, HMS Caledon)

Indian Ocean Fleet
10 destroyers, 2 squadrons of 5.
10 frigates, 1 flotilla of 10.
1 Heavy missile cruiser(HMS Carlisle)

Fleet Air Arm (with carriers)
5 Blackburn Buccaneer Carrier Aircraft
5 elite naval aviation pilots

The Royal Airforce 16.75 points
3 EE Lightnings (3 in UK, RAF Brize Norton, 2 at RAF High Wicombe)
2 Handley Page Victor air tankers (2 in UK, RAF Brize Norton)
2 Avro Vulcan Bombers (2 in UK, RAF Brize Norton)
3 C82 air transport (3 in UK, RAF Brize Norton)
2 E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft (on carriers HMS Ark Royal, HMS Vindictive)
1 E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft
2 U2 strategic recon aircraft
1 Avro Arrow Unit
12 expert pilot units (with planes)
2 spare standard pilot units (left over after modernisation and retained due to free maintenence).

The Merchant Navy
35 merchant shipping units
2 Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 4 Queen Mary sized ocean liners)

Merchant Airforce
5 pilots
1 domestic airline
4 international airline

ABC Weapons stockpile
Around 500 H bombs (10 - 15 megatons ),
Around 150 lesser boosted fission bombs (250 -400 kilotons)
Assorted tactical nuclear weapons (1-50 kilotons)

14 units of VX gas, stored at Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, Porton Down

150 ICBMs, 100 large ICBMs, in silos in UK, 10% ready and fuelled at all times (safely due to solid fuel systems), 80% ready for deployment in cases of alert, remaining 10% undergoing maintenance.
240 improved IRBM missiles, Can carry up to 1 50 KT warhead. 80 carried aboard 5 nuclear ballistic subs, plus a further 40 as spares. rest in silos around UK, same proportional status as ICBM

UK Satellite Agency Program (UKSAP, For UK useage only)
Early Warning Satellite Network
Public Communications Satellite Network
Spy Satellite Network

Under Construction
Royal Navy modernisation Program
2 Nuclear Powered heavy carrier groups, 1 year build time remains
3 Nuclear Powered fleet carrier groups, jet capable, 1 year build time remains
12 Nuclear Powered Cruisers, 4 heavy missile, 4 light missile, 4 AA, (total cost 200 points, 200 spent so far, all started at the same time and so none will be finished until entire points cost paid).

TOTAL MAINTENENCE COST: 66 points

ETU95 (Scandic Union)(converted bomber)


Would my ETU95 be on the level of a E1 Tracer or an E121? As in, would it give my units a +1 or a +2?

Also, can destroyers be nuclear powered yet?

Would my ETU95 be on the level of a E1 Tracer or an E121? As in, would it give my units a +1 or a +2?

Also, can destroyers be nuclear powered yet?

consider the ETU-95 ab E121 (its got four engines). Twin engined aircraft are the equal to the E1.

Escort cruisers and larger ships can be nuclear powered (as nuclear powered destroyers are around 3500 tons, this works out to be the same size as an escort cruiser in the game)

To Expand:

Indeed it depends on what classification you use, the British/Russian/Commonwealth/European destroyer classification is too small to be nuclear powered but the US large destroyer can be. This is largely due to the US large destroyers and some frigates being the size of a British/etc escort cruiser.

I don't know why the USN initially chose that system but they changed it in the 1975 reclassification so that they closed (and exceeded) th percieved cruiser gap with the soviets (the USSR had 19 cruisers, the US only 6).

So it gets a little complicated depending on what system you use, but I think we are using the post 1975 system to keep it simple. Therefore a small (or escort) cruiser is what you may be thinking of as a destroyer and can be nuclear powered whereas smaller vessels cannot.

To Expand:

Indeed it depends on what classification you use, the British/Russian/Commonwealth/European destroyer classification is too small to be nuclear powered but the US large destroyer can be. This is largely due to the US large destroyers and some frigates being the size of a British/etc escort cruiser.

I don't know why the USN initially chose that system but they changed it in the 1975 reclassification so that they closed (and exceeded) th percieved cruiser gap with the soviets (the USSR had 19 cruisers, the US only 6).

So it gets a little complicated depending on what system you use, but I think we are using the post 1975 system to keep it simple. Therefore a small (or escort) cruiser is what you may be thinking of as a destroyer and can be nuclear powered whereas smaller vessels cannot.

what he said.. in real life, the USN classified the 15,000 ton Long Beach and the 4200 ton Knox as frigates for a while (sigh)

by the way, tech level 7.5 frigates and destroyers will cost for a pair of ships instead of group of 5 or 10 as they are getting to be about 3500 -4500 tons. Cruisers will be about 5000 - 20000 tons (depending on type)

I'm guessing the stats for the ships will be different

Newly built Frigates will have better AA capabilities (due to more thought being put in SAM missile locations and dedicated AAW command rooms being used) and better anti-missile measures due to countermeasures being put into place. They are also generally much quicker and have better ASW measures than their predecessors.

I'll update the front page with both types (new and old).

Few questions here...
1. Will you add this to the front page please:

Picture! (http://www1.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/XB-70/Large/ECN-2128.jpg)

M-52 Dragon
Type: Supersonic Strategic Bomber, Missile Platform, Reccy, Naval Interdiction
Country of Origin: Venezuela
Powerplant: six Sewell-Porsche-Messershcmitt D-17 turbojets achieving 28,000lb of thrust each
Performance: maximum speed at altitude Mach 3.1, 3,800 km/h (2,360 mph)
Altitude: 77,350 ft (23,600 m)
Range: 4,288 mi
Empty weight: 210,000 lb (93,000kg)
Loaded weight: 534,700 lb (242,500kg)
Armament Weights: 50,000lb
Dimensions: wing span of 105 ft and a length of 185.10 ft
Crew: 2;
Armament: 1 23mm cannon; Internal Bomb Bay carrying Stand off nuclear weapons. Capable of launching Anti-shipping missiles, Air to surface missiles, and eventually, ASAT missiles. Generally carries 4 free-fall nuclear weapons, and two to four stand off or cruisemissile type weapons.
8 AS-15 Kent type missiles (Entire Payload)
4 AS-6 Kingfish type missiles (Entire Payload)
6 AS-5 Kelt type missiles (Entire Payload)
10 M-61 Cruise Missiles (800km range) (Entire Payload)
8 B55 Nuclear Weapons
4 M-61 Cruise Missiles, 4 B55 Nuclear Weapons (I am unsure of the kilotons that it should have... GB?)
2 AS-15 Kent ASM, 4 B61 Nuclear Weapons

Color code for land attack package
Color code for naval attack package


2. I have an Infantry Division, in which I am paying the upkeep for it being Airborne, Marine, Mountain, and Handpicked, so the unit has all four qualities. Its quite expensive but is it even being recognized? Am I wasting my points?

GB knows more about planes than me so i'll leave the qualities for him to decide and then i'll add them.

As for the division, it depends who you ask really. Essentially what you have is a division with all three specialities, such a division is immensely expensive. For the same cost you could get several standard divisions as well as some specialised brigades. In my opinion you aren't likely ot need such varied specialities, I just stick with having an elite brigade of each and some handpicked marines for special occasions. The chance that your division will need to fight on all three terrains in a single year is quite remote. Whereas three seperate specialised brigades could do the same job at less cost. In such situations as they will be employed a brigade is often more than ample for the job.

But as I say, that's just my opinion. Their specialities will be recognised by the mods in a warfare situation but you've got to judge their value against their cost.

Few questions here...
1. Will you add this to the front page please:

Picture! (http://www1.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/XB-70/Large/ECN-2128.jpg)

M-52 Dragon
Type: Supersonic Strategic Bomber, Missile Platform, Reccy, Naval Interdiction
Country of Origin: Venezuela
Powerplant: six Sewell-Porsche-Messershcmitt D-17 turbojets achieving 28,000lb of thrust each
Performance: maximum speed at altitude Mach 3.1, 3,800 km/h (2,360 mph)
Altitude: 77,350 ft (23,600 m)
Range: 4,288 mi
Empty weight: 210,000 lb (93,000kg)
Loaded weight: 534,700 lb (242,500kg)
Armament Weights: 50,000lb
Dimensions: wing span of 105 ft and a length of 185.10 ft
Crew: 2;
Armament: 1 23mm cannon; Internal Bomb Bay carrying Stand off nuclear weapons. Capable of launching Anti-shipping missiles, Air to surface missiles, and eventually, ASAT missiles. Generally carries 4 free-fall nuclear weapons, and two to four stand off or cruisemissile type weapons.
8 AS-15 Kent type missiles (Entire Payload)
4 AS-6 Kingfish type missiles (Entire Payload)
6 AS-5 Kelt type missiles (Entire Payload)
10 M-61 Cruise Missiles (800km range) (Entire Payload)
8 B55 Nuclear Weapons
4 M-61 Cruise Missiles, 4 B55 Nuclear Weapons (I am unsure of the kilotons that it should have... GB?)
2 AS-15 Kent ASM, 4 B61 Nuclear Weapons

Color code for land attack package
Color code for naval attack package?

This is a Tech Level 7.5 aircraft so it won't be available for service until 1960
M52 Dragon Bomber air combat 16 (defense only), strike 9, naval strike 7, range long, all weather high altitude bomber (nuclear capable). cost 9, maintenance 3

By the way, the B70 did not have an airframe strong enough to allow it to operate at low level, so its a high altitude aircraft only. Half the strike and naval strike rating and you get a air combat rating of 21 (extra ECM)


2. I have an Infantry Division, in which I am paying the upkeep for it being Airborne, Marine, Mountain, and Handpicked, so the unit has all four qualities. Its quite expensive but is it even being recognized? Am I wasting my points?

Essentially you have a division sized special operations force. Special Operations troops are assumed to have airborne, amphibious and mountian training (thats why they are special). Pay the cost of an airborne unit (3 brigades in size) plus the extra cost for them being handpicked.

http://geo.ya.com/travelimages/portugal-map.jpg

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/po.html

Intervention in Portugal March 5, 1957

Phase 1
Massive fly over by US and British carrier aircraft and USAF and RAF aircraft operating from Britain and the Azores. Equipped with outdated F84 fighter bombers, the Portuguese Air Force (what is actually operational) decides to stay on the ground.

Phase 2
American paratroopers of the 82nd Airborne Division, along with special operations troops from the British SAS and US 75th Rangers parachute into Portugal. A brigade each of the 82nd seizes the major civilian airfields at Porto, Faro and Lisbon (with their 3,000 + meter runways). Each brigade is assisted by special teams of US or British special operations troops who come in via commercial flights and seize the control towers. Some fighting occurs as Portuguese factional forces holding the airports put up some resistance but these troops (battalion sized) are overwhelmed and routed. American paratroopers suffer less then 500 casualties (including jump accidents) during this part of the operation, along a few dozen special operations troops who are wounded or killed. The airborne drop is the first major parachute drop since the Third Great War and the first time the C130 is used in combat.

Phase 3
Intimidated by the massive fleet offshore, and with most Portuguese Naval craft and ships inoperative because of lack of funds, there is no opposition to the Allied fleets at sea. The British make their landing at Porto, with the airborne troops coming ashore by helicopter while the Royal Marines land on a beach nearby. A few Portuguese troops resist, but most quickly surrender or retreat in disarray. A similar scene occurs at Faro, where the US 1/75th Ranger Regiment is paradropped followed quickly after by the helicopters carrying ashore the 1st Brigade/101st Airborne Division.

At Lisbon, the entire 2nd Marine Division comes ashore via LVT and helicopter, and in places they face no resistance, while in others fierce resistance is found. 2 brigades worth of Portuguese troops from 2 different factions fight the Marines, and the heaviest fighting occurs near the former Presidential Palace. The USS New Jersey fires its guns for the first time since the Third Great War and 16 inch shells destroy much of the palace and most of the troops defending it. The other serious fighting occurs at the port, and the heavy civilian population in the area prevents the Americans from using air or naval gun fire support for the most part. The Marines of the 2nd and 6th Marine Regiments fight a 12 hour building to building fight, only finally securing the port after the Portuguese run out of ammunition and flee the area.

In all the Americans suffer 1,000 casualties while the British suffer 200 in the complex operation. However, by the end of March 5, Porte, Faro and Lisbon have been secured and transport shipping and aircraft are bringing in the US 2nd Infantry Division, remainder of the 101st Airborne Division, and the British Ghurkha Brigade.

Phase 4
Over the next week, 2 more British mechanized divisions arrive, as do 2 Brazilian divisions, and the American and British troops hunt down and destroy any Portuguese armed groups that resist, while Brazilian troops take over the job of occupation.

Phase 5
Within a month, the last Portuguese major armed groups have either been destroyed or forced to surrender.

Most US forces return home by the end of April, but the Americans leave the 11th Aviation Group, 10th Special Forces Group and bring in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment to provide support to the Brazilians who have 2 infantry divisions providing occupation forces, plus British troops that remain.

Final cost is 1800 American, 400 British and 500 Brazilian casualties and a known figure of 20,000 Portuguese military casualties plus 100,000 captured, and a thankfully low civilian casualty figure of 5,000.

However, some Portuguese factional forces are merely in hiding, waiting for an opportunity.

OOC
First major combat use of the helicopter, and biggest military operation since the Greek/Turkish War

On the naval changes:

I was planning on giving Syria an actual navy soon (its really more of a coast guard) Would I be better off waiting until the TL change? I don't want to buy ships I'll need to upgrade in a few years.

Few questions here...
1. Will you add this to the front page please:

Picture! (http://www1.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/XB-70/Large/ECN-2128.jpg)

M-52 Dragon
Type: Supersonic Strategic Bomber, Missile Platform, Reccy, Naval Interdiction
Country of Origin: Venezuela
Powerplant: six Sewell-Porsche-Messershcmitt D-17 turbojets achieving 28,000lb of thrust each
Performance: maximum speed at altitude Mach 3.1, 3,800 km/h (2,360 mph)
Altitude: 77,350 ft (23,600 m)
Range: 4,288 mi
Empty weight: 210,000 lb (93,000kg)
Loaded weight: 534,700 lb (242,500kg)
Armament Weights: 50,000lb
Dimensions: wing span of 105 ft and a length of 185.10 ft
Crew: 2;
Armament: 1 23mm cannon; Internal Bomb Bay carrying Stand off nuclear weapons. Capable of launching Anti-shipping missiles, Air to surface missiles, and eventually, ASAT missiles. Generally carries 4 free-fall nuclear weapons, and two to four stand off or cruisemissile type weapons.
8 AS-15 Kent type missiles (Entire Payload)
4 AS-6 Kingfish type missiles (Entire Payload)
6 AS-5 Kelt type missiles (Entire Payload)
10 M-61 Cruise Missiles (800km range) (Entire Payload)
8 B55 Nuclear Weapons
4 M-61 Cruise Missiles, 4 B55 Nuclear Weapons (I am unsure of the kilotons that it should have... GB?)
2 AS-15 Kent ASM, 4 B61 Nuclear Weapons

Color code for land attack package
Color code for naval attack package


2. I have an Infantry Division, in which I am paying the upkeep for it being Airborne, Marine, Mountain, and Handpicked, so the unit has all four qualities. Its quite expensive but is it even being recognized? Am I wasting my points?

Unless, I'm mistaken, that's the Valkyrie bomber. Didn't that turn out to be a big waste of money after 1 exploded when it sucked a fighter into its turbines?

Yes, but if they hadn't lost that one (the one with all the equipment) it could have gone decently.

On the naval changes:

I was planning on giving Syria an actual navy soon (its really more of a coast guard) Would I be better off waiting until the TL change? I don't want to buy ships I'll need to upgrade in a few years.

yes, if nothing else, you can probably pick up obsolescent ships cheap and then upgrade them for cheaper then buying new construction.

Unless, I'm mistaken, that's the Valkyrie bomber. Didn't that turn out to be a big waste of money after 1 exploded when it sucked a fighter into its turbines?

yes it is.. and it turned out that ICBMs were much, much cheaper

Elephantum, I can sell you some frigate or destroyer units for chear (they're pre 7.5 of course).

Also, does a light missle cruiser take 1 year or 2 to build? It doesn't specifiy

I've got 3 tch lv 7 cruisers I'm gonna be selling next year if anyone wants them

Elephantum, I can sell you some frigate or destroyer units for chear (they're pre 7.5 of course).

Also, does a light missle cruiser take 1 year or 2 to build? It doesn't specifiy
I think I'll take you up on that in 1958. Poor Arab League *watches dreams of a happy middle east spiral down drain*

Elephantum, I can sell you some frigate or destroyer units for chear (they're pre 7.5 of course).

Also, does a light missle cruiser take 1 year or 2 to build? It doesn't specifiy

its one year for a cruiser

excelent

Elephantum, how many do you want. I have 6 frigates and 3 destroyers for sale

I think I'll take all the frigates and two cruisers, maxing out my air/navy units. How much do you want for them?

RE: Portugal

In a break from tradition the British fatalities are flown home to Britain to be buried there. This is considered feasible due to the low number of deaths caused by the light fighting. The moveable wounded are also transported home to be with thier families.

Most British troops return at the same time as the Americans, but the Royal Marines plus helicopters remain to support the Brazilians alongside several detachments of Royal Artillery and other support units. The Staffs regiment (2 bns) also remain behind and will be rotated out within 6 months.

The Queen and Parliament congratulate the forces on a job well done and the troops return home to a heroes welcome. Several VCs are awarded to the frontline troops, including some individuals from the SAS, Marines, Paras and Ghurkas. A parade of some of the troops from all 3 services is organised along the Mall in London accompanied by a fly by by some of the RAF and FAA aircraft. The Navy sails a few smaller vessels up the Thames and provides a 21 gun salute for the Queen.

2. Submarine launched missiles. Initially these are also liquid fueled, which means unlike land based missiles, they have the fuel aboard the missiles. This is risky, and they have to be carefully handled before and after each sortie of the submarine carrying them. This means there is a risk of accident (1D6 a year is rolled by the war moderator, and a 6 result means the owning nation loses a missile submarine at sea to accident. For reference, look up the loss rate of Soviet submarines during the historical Cold War).
.

The FNS losses a nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine in 1957... the US and British figure this out fairly quickly (from sonar records and spotting a radiation hotspot). The FNS may or may not make this public.

(The US certainly doesnt).

Taiwan Wargames 1957
Australasia vs China
http://www.meatnpotatoes.com/nations/maps/tw-map-big.jpg

Chinese took up positions to defend Taiwan from invasion, and the infantry corps was spread out to cover all of the likely landing places (1 Corps with 2 divisions plus attachments for 6 brigade sized units were scattered about the perimeter of the island). The armored division was concentrated at Taipai to act as a mobile reserve except for 3 battalion sized task forces in the far south, southwest and southeast of the island to provide a mobile reserve. The Chinese have 2 wings of Mirage IIIs and 1 wing of Kirin bombers available (both fighter wings based on the island, while the bombers are based on the mainland).

The Australians carry out a practice landing using their 2 marine brigades, and their 2 wings of F4Cs and 1 wing of F105s are based on Taiwan itself but are simulated to be coming from an offshore base (or carrier).

In practice exercises, the Australian F4Cs shoot down 90 Mirage Cs in exchange for 45 F4Cs (no actual planes lost, simulation only) as the Australians have better missiles. However, the Chinese fighters manage to keep the RAAF busy so that the Kirins penetrate the fighter screen. The Australian fleet offshore then gets practice, but fails to gain a significant number of hits (only getting 5 simulated kills) and the Kirins get a simulated kill on the RAN aircraft carrier. Meanwhile, the Australian F105 wing attacks Chinese airbases, destroying 90 more Chinese fighters on the ground at the cost of 60 F105s. Essentially 2 Chinese and 2 RAAF air wings are considered destroyed, but the RAAF has air superiority over the island and the RAN has suffered heavily at sea.

Meanwhile, the Australian Marines make their landing and overwhelm the Chinese infantry brigade at Tainan, which is ruled to be scattered and combat ineffective by the referees.

The first phase of the exercise is ended.

To provide further training, it is decided to proceed with the assumption that the Australians get ashore.

This time the RAAF hits the Chinese armor as it proceeds south while the F4s protect the beachhead and bombers. The 2 wings of Mirages are split up to cover the armor and to escort the Kirins. Fighter combat is inclusive, but the Kirin attack is called off as sufficient fighters and SAMs get sufficient simulated kills to make the attack too costly.

Meanwhile, the RAAF and PAF fighters destroy each other over Taipai, but that clears the way for the RAAF F105s, which simulate disrupting both the Chinese HQ unit and armored division.

With that, the Australian landing force of 2 marine brigades, 2 infantry divisions and 1 mechanized division mops up the Chinese defenders in detail and ‘wins’ the battle.

Elephantum, I'll sell them for 4 apiece if that's okay with you

Taiwan Wargames 1957
Australasia vs China
http://www.meatnpotatoes.com/nations/maps/tw-map-big.jpg

Chinese took up positions to defend Taiwan from invasion, and the infantry corps was spread out to cover all of the likely landing places (1 Corps with 2 divisions plus attachments for 6 brigade sized units were scattered about the perimeter of the island). The armored division was concentrated at Taipai to act as a mobile reserve except for 3 battalion sized task forces in the far south, southwest and southeast of the island to provide a mobile reserve. The Chinese have 2 wings of Mirage IIIs and 1 wing of Kirin bombers available (both fighter wings based on the island, while the bombers are based on the mainland).

The Australians carry out a practice landing using their 2 marine brigades, and their 2 wings of F4Cs and 1 wing of F105s are based on Taiwan itself but are simulated to be coming from an offshore base (or carrier).

In practice exercises, the Australian F4Cs shoot down 90 Mirage Cs in exchange for 45 F4Cs (no actual planes lost, simulation only) as the Australians have better missiles. However, the Chinese fighters manage to keep the RAAF busy so that the Kirins penetrate the fighter screen. The Australian fleet offshore then gets practice, but fails to gain a significant number of hits (only getting 5 simulated kills) and the Kirins get a simulated kill on the RAN aircraft carrier. Meanwhile, the Australian F105 wing attacks Chinese airbases, destroying 90 more Chinese fighters on the ground at the cost of 60 F105s. Essentially 2 Chinese and 2 RAAF air wings are considered destroyed, but the RAAF has air superiority over the island and the RAN has suffered heavily at sea.

Meanwhile, the Australian Marines make their landing and overwhelm the Chinese infantry brigade at Tainan, which is ruled to be scattered and combat ineffective by the referees.

The first phase of the exercise is ended.

To provide further training, it is decided to proceed with the assumption that the Australians get ashore.

This time the RAAF hits the Chinese armor as it proceeds south while the F4s protect the beachhead and bombers. The 2 wings of Mirages are split up to cover the armor and to escort the Kirins. Fighter combat is inclusive, but the Kirin attack is called off as sufficient fighters and SAMs get sufficient simulated kills to make the attack too costly.

Meanwhile, the RAAF and PAF fighters destroy each other over Taipai, but that clears the way for the RAAF F105s, which simulate disrupting both the Chinese HQ unit and armored division.

With that, the Australian landing force of 2 marine brigades, 2 infantry divisions and 1 mechanized division mops up the Chinese defenders in detail and ‘wins’ the battle.

Upon the conclusion of this, Chinese generals demand to know how and why China failed so miserably at land, with the loss of an entire Infantry Corps, Armored division, and HQ unit.

Several generals are pondering whether to greatly increase China's already numerous land forces if there is any hope to protect China from any foreign invasion if the terrible losses in the war games are of any indication.

-------------------------------

OOC:

Basically, I'd like to know why and how I failed so miserably, and what can and must be done to prevent such failure in the future.

Taiwan Wargames 1957
Australasia vs China
http://www.meatnpotatoes.com/nations/maps/tw-map-big.jpg

Chinese took up positions to defend Taiwan from invasion, and the infantry corps was spread out to cover all of the likely landing places (1 Corps with 2 divisions plus attachments for 6 brigade sized units were scattered about the perimeter of the island). The armored division was concentrated at Taipai to act as a mobile reserve except for 3 battalion sized task forces in the far south, southwest and southeast of the island to provide a mobile reserve. The Chinese have 2 wings of Mirage IIIs and 1 wing of Kirin bombers available (both fighter wings based on the island, while the bombers are based on the mainland).

The Australians carry out a practice landing using their 2 marine brigades, and their 2 wings of F4Cs and 1 wing of F105s are based on Taiwan itself but are simulated to be coming from an offshore base (or carrier).

In practice exercises, the Australian F4Cs shoot down 90 Mirage Cs in exchange for 45 F4Cs (no actual planes lost, simulation only) as the Australians have better missiles. However, the Chinese fighters manage to keep the RAAF busy so that the Kirins penetrate the fighter screen. The Australian fleet offshore then gets practice, but fails to gain a significant number of hits (only getting 5 simulated kills) and the Kirins get a simulated kill on the RAN aircraft carrier. Meanwhile, the Australian F105 wing attacks Chinese airbases, destroying 90 more Chinese fighters on the ground at the cost of 60 F105s. Essentially 2 Chinese and 2 RAAF air wings are considered destroyed, but the RAAF has air superiority over the island and the RAN has suffered heavily at sea.

Meanwhile, the Australian Marines make their landing and overwhelm the Chinese infantry brigade at Tainan, which is ruled to be scattered and combat ineffective by the referees.

The first phase of the exercise is ended.

To provide further training, it is decided to proceed with the assumption that the Australians get ashore.

This time the RAAF hits the Chinese armor as it proceeds south while the F4s protect the beachhead and bombers. The 2 wings of Mirages are split up to cover the armor and to escort the Kirins. Fighter combat is inclusive, but the Kirin attack is called off as sufficient fighters and SAMs get sufficient simulated kills to make the attack too costly.

Meanwhile, the RAAF and PAF fighters destroy each other over Taipai, but that clears the way for the RAAF F105s, which simulate disrupting both the Chinese HQ unit and armored division.

With that, the Australian landing force of 2 marine brigades, 2 infantry divisions and 1 mechanized division mops up the Chinese defenders in detail and ‘wins’ the battle.

OOC: omfg so cool! anyway...

IC: Australia congratulates the Chinese on a battle well fought, with plenty of emphasis on the successful attack on HMAS Curtin. Tactfully not mentioned is the results of land combat, though if it comes up the Chinese are reminded that the focus of later games in Darwin will be on this sort of thing.

Back in Parliament, a move to increase the RAN gains momentum, but with a different focus. Orders on 5 new destroyers are canceled and are replaced with calls for escort cruisers for HMAS Curtin. (escort cruisers protect against aircraft or are missile cruisers more effective?)

OOC: OoooooOOOooOOOooooOOOooohhhh! How do I have wargames? :D

Upon the conclusion of this, Chinese generals demand to know how and why China failed so miserably at land, with the loss of an entire Infantry Corps, Armored division, and HQ unit.

Several generals are pondering whether to greatly increase China's already numerous land forces if there is any hope to protect China from any foreign invasion if the terrible losses in the war games are of any indication.

-------------------------------

OOC:

Basically, I'd like to know why and how I failed so miserably, and what can and must be done to prevent such failure in the future.

ooc: Sharina, we were fairly evenly matched in numbers, and I am still not completely familiar with how rolling works. However I would assume our relative successes at disrupting each other made the difference.

I dont suppose you have ever played Advance Wars on a gameboy? If not, it is a similar concept. By the time your units got to the front line to face my fresh ones they were already beat up and damaged...

Somebody correct me if I am off base--not trying to lead him astray on purpose or anything...

OOC: You and I India, you and I will square off sometime in wargames.
IC:

Japan congratulates both nation's armed forces on a job well fought

OOC: You and I India, you and I will square off sometime in wargames.
IC:

Japan congratulates both nation's armed forces on a job well fought

OOC: How about some desert warfare? :)

Also, does anyone know that me having veteran officers gives me any advantage at all in a war game? After all, my civil war was barely 5 years ago, so many of the current lieutenants, majors, lt colonels, colonels, and generals had recent combat experience. Compared to China, which hasn't fought a war in nearly 20 years.

OOC: I'm open for some desert warfare. Do you want to do it? Name a location and force size, and an objection, and I'll do it

chatzy anyone?

oooo I wanna play too!! Who can I match up with?!

ic:

The FNS Government announces to its population, the loss of the SAS. Reflex and all hands. The government does heavily suggest this was a freak accident and appeared to have no foul play involved. The FNS government is unable to level any blame at this point on anyone, and will not accuse any member of the South American Navy of negligence (Although secretly there will be an investigation.)

The families of those lost will be taken care of financially. (I'll include this in my next budget. Say 3 points?)

OOC: I'm open for some desert warfare. Do you want to do it? Name a location and force size, and an objection, and I'll do it

How about a battle in the Sindh (http://www.himalmag.com/2002/july/images/sindh.gif) province within 50km of the city of Nawabshah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawabshah)? Sindh is a bit too populated, though. Maybe Balochistan, if I could find a decent map...

We can discuss more on Chatzy. But I lost the link...

http://www.chatzy.com/684093003041

http://www.chatzy.com/684093003041

Gratzie

ooc: Sharina, we were fairly evenly matched in numbers, and I am still not completely familiar with how rolling works. However I would assume our relative successes at disrupting each other made the difference.

I dont suppose you have ever played Advance Wars on a gameboy? If not, it is a similar concept. By the time your units got to the front line to face my fresh ones they were already beat up and damaged...

Somebody correct me if I am off base--not trying to lead him astray on purpose or anything...

True- I'm happy with my small success, but the wargames taught China IC'ly that its ground forces need huge improvement to hold any hope of containing any foreign invasion of China, especially Shanghai, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, etc. areas (the ones most hard hit by the Japanese invasion of the 1930's).

So Chinese generals are worried about how easily their ground forces were defeated, and wants to know how to rectify that problem.

True- I'm happy with my small success, but the wargames taught China IC'ly that its ground forces need huge improvement to hold any hope of containing any foreign invasion of China, especially Shanghai, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, etc. areas (the ones most hard hit by the Japanese invasion of the 1930's).

So Chinese generals are worried about how easily their ground forces were defeated, and wants to know how to rectify that problem.

Incidently, there is supposed to be a second round in Australia. You want to head to the old 1st Darwin thread to hash out what we want to send, or would you rather just blow it off?

I've come up for an idea for a desert combat Scenario.

It can be an "invasion" of Balochistan, of sorts. The Scenario is as follows:

The Emirate of Quetta (encompassing all of Baluchistan) has sponsered a terrorist attack on Japan, in order to try and disrupt its economy and weaken its position in Asia. After learning of this attack, the Japan decides to retaliate against the Emirate, so it launches an invasion of the Emirate.

"Emirate" (AKA Pakistani Forces
1 Armored Corps (highly trained)
3 Light Infantry Corps (highly trained)
1 Hal Marut Fighter Group (highly trained)
1 pilot unit (expert)

"Invasion"(AKA Japanese Forces)
Some way of invasion (either transport planes and paratroopers or some navy ships and some amphibious landing craft)
3 Mech infantry corps (or 3 paratrooper corps, if coming by air)
1 fighter wing

Objectives:
Emirate: Push back the invading Japanese, either to the sea or over the border into the other provinces of Pakistan.
Japan: Capture Quetta, all the Divisional Capitals, and capture the Emir.

Administrative Map of Baluchistan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/modern/pakadmin/balochadmin.jpg)

Physical Map (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/overview/pakphysical/balochphysical.jpg)

True- I'm happy with my small success, but the wargames taught China IC'ly that its ground forces need huge improvement to hold any hope of containing any foreign invasion of China, especially Shanghai, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, etc. areas (the ones most hard hit by the Japanese invasion of the 1930's).

So Chinese generals are worried about how easily their ground forces were defeated, and wants to know how to rectify that problem.

The point of these games was to make each nation feel more friendly toward the other. A massive increase in the size of the Chinese military would not be viewed real favorably in Canberra.

Often it is quality over quantity. I dont know what influence it had, but my marine brigades were elite trained while i think most of your troops were average. Perhaps instead of spending the funding and energy on new units China should consider increasing the skill level of part of its military.

Also, there are very very few nations that could match China in manpower. In a real situation China already outnumbers its enemies. Any increase is redundant

ooc: Sharina, we were fairly evenly matched in numbers, and I am still not completely familiar with how rolling works. However I would assume our relative successes at disrupting each other made the difference.

I dont suppose you have ever played Advance Wars on a gameboy? If not, it is a similar concept. By the time your units got to the front line to face my fresh ones they were already beat up and damaged...

Somebody correct me if I am off base--not trying to lead him astray on purpose or anything...

ooc
if it had been a real world situation, the invasion would have failed with the loss of the carrier. Once ashore, however, in the second round of fighting, the Australians gained air superiority and neutralized the the Chinese armored division (prevented it from moving and inflicted serious damage to it). The remainder of the Chinese force, still spread out defending the coast, was beaten in detail as it was unable to concentrate. Without the armor, the Australians had local superiority in every battle after that.

Defeat on the ground followed defeat in the air.

oooo I wanna play too!! Who can I match up with?!

ic:

The FNS Government announces to its population, the loss of the SAS. Reflex and all hands. The government does heavily suggest this was a freak accident and appeared to have no foul play involved. The FNS government is unable to level any blame at this point on anyone, and will not accuse any member of the South American Navy of negligence (Although secretly there will be an investigation.)

The families of those lost will be taken care of financially. (I'll include this in my next budget. Say 3 points?)

thats a lot of money... roughly $3 billion in 2006 dollars. .25 points would be more reasonable.

I've come up for an idea for a desert combat Scenario.

It can be an "invasion" of Balochistan, of sorts. The Scenario is as follows:

The Emirate of Quetta (encompassing all of Baluchistan) has sponsered a terrorist attack on Japan, in order to try and disrupt its economy and weaken its position in Asia. After learning of this attack, the Japan decides to retaliate against the Emirate, so it launches an invasion of the Emirate.

"Emirate" (AKA Pakistani Forces
1 Armored Corps (highly trained)
3 Light Infantry Corps (highly trained)
1 Hal Marut Fighter Group (highly trained)
1 pilot unit (expert)

"Invasion"(AKA Japanese Forces)
Some way of invasion (either transport planes and paratroopers or some navy ships and some amphibious landing craft)
3 Mech infantry corps (or 3 paratrooper corps, if coming by air)
1 fighter wing

Objectives:
Emirate: Push back the invading Japanese, either to the sea or over the border into the other provinces of Pakistan.
Japan: Capture Quetta, all the Divisional Capitals, and capture the Emir.

Administrative Map of Baluchistan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/modern/pakadmin/balochadmin.jpg)

Physical Map (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/overview/pakphysical/balochphysical.jpg)


TG me if this is actually agreed to

The point of these games was to make each nation feel more friendly toward the other. A massive increase in the size of the Chinese military would not be viewed real favorably in Canberra.

Often it is quality over quantity. I dont know what influence it had, but my marine brigades were elite trained while i think most of your troops were average. Perhaps instead of spending the funding and energy on new units China should consider increasing the skill level of part of its military.

Also, there are very very few nations that could match China in manpower. In a real situation China already outnumbers its enemies. Any increase is redundant

OOC'ly I realize this and support the war games. However, IC'ly the Chinese are wary of foreign invasion, especially after WW-2, WW-3, and the Japanese invasions (all the wars of the 1930's). So losing ground battles makes the Chinese a little edgy simply because they don't want a repeat of the 1930's with total annilihation and occupation (as per what the Japanese did).

I'm only saying that several Chinese generals are making noises- nothing concrete and certainly not implemented in foreign policy. The military buildup is practically finished as of end of 1957, meaning in 1958 onwards China won't be building any more military units except for support stuff like AWACS, refueler planes, E121 type planes, spy planes, Dynasoar, etc. as well as some heliocopter gunships for infantry support (Apaches and Hueys for instance)

In short, China won't go past its military numbers as of 1957 with the exception of support units and several units of heliocopter gunships (probably in 1960's onwards).

In short, China won't go past its military numbers as of 1957 with the exception of support units and several units of heliocopter gunships (probably in 1960's onwards).

Han Taik produces helicopters based off the Mil-4 and Mil-6 designs (Ht-3 and Ht-4 respectively)
The Ht-4B (armed version) can mount wire guided anti-tank missiles, rocket pods and chain guns.

Stats:

Crew: One or two pilots
Capacity: 16 troops or up to 1,600 kg (3,520 lb) of cargo
Length: 26.80 m (87 ft 11 in)
Rotor diameter: 21.00 m (68 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 5 in)
Disc area: 346.4 m² (3,727 ft²)
Empty weight: 5,100 kg (11,220 lb)
Loaded weight: 7,150 kg (15,730 lb)
Maximum gross takeoff weight: 7,550 kg (16,610 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Yanpei YpB-82V radial engine, 1,250 kW (1,675 hp)

Performance

Maximum speed: 185 km/h (116 mph)
Range: 500 km (313 miles)
Service ceiling: 5,500 m (18,040 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Disc loading: 41 kg/m² (8 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.21 kW/kg (0.13 hp/lb)

Armament

4x 57mm rocket pods, 2x 7.62mm chainguns or 4x Wire guided AT-3 Xan anti-tank missiles


As the Chinese government not only has large shares in Han Taik but also has several plants in Southern China you can construct them indginouesly.

I've come up for an idea for a desert combat Scenario.

It can be an "invasion" of Balochistan, of sorts. The Scenario is as follows:

The Emirate of Quetta (encompassing all of Baluchistan) has sponsered a terrorist attack on Japan, in order to try and disrupt its economy and weaken its position in Asia. After learning of this attack, the Japan decides to retaliate against the Emirate, so it launches an invasion of the Emirate.

"Emirate" (AKA Pakistani Forces
1 Armored Corps (highly trained)
3 Light Infantry Corps (highly trained)
1 Hal Marut Fighter Group (highly trained)
1 pilot unit (expert)

"Invasion"(AKA Japanese Forces)
Some way of invasion (either transport planes and paratroopers or some navy ships and some amphibious landing craft)
3 Mech infantry corps (or 3 paratrooper corps, if coming by air)
1 fighter wing

Objectives:
Emirate: Push back the invading Japanese, either to the sea or over the border into the other provinces of Pakistan.
Japan: Capture Quetta, all the Divisional Capitals, and capture the Emir.

Administrative Map of Baluchistan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/modern/pakadmin/balochadmin.jpg)

Physical Map (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00maplinks/overview/pakphysical/balochphysical.jpg)

I actually have no mechanized forces. I have:

4 Elite Light Infantry Divisions
4 Elite Parachute Brigades
3 Elite Mountain Brigades
5 MirageIII's
4 C82's
7 elite pilots
2 expert pilots
6 flak groups
1 light missle cruiser

I actually have no mechanized forces. I have:

4 Elite Light Infantry Divisions
4 Elite Parachute Brigades
3 Elite Mountain Brigades
5 MirageIII's
4 C82's
7 elite pilots
2 expert pilots
6 flak groups
1 light missle cruiser

None at all?

Ok then, how about 1 Parachute Corps and 1 Light Infantry Corps? (That's 4 Parachute Brigades and two Light Infantry divisions). Your troops are higher trained, so it's about equal.

So 12 points total (4 for frigates, 8 for the two cruisers?)

I have an important question.

I'd like to try to upgrade my Kirin bombers to better versions, namely raise its strike rating and perhaps even range.

The B-52's had at least 8 upgrades to it, from the original B-52 to the B-52-G's. Can I do the same with my Kirin bombers? If the B-52 can do that, then surely the same thing can be done to the Kirin bombers. Remember, I have a significantly larger aerospace industry, better technology overall, and more necessity for improved aircraft than the RL China in the 1950's and early 1960's.

Here's what I think...

Kirin-A (Original version)

Air Combat = 8
Strike = 9
Range = Long

Kirin-B (Upgaded like the B-52's are)

Air Combat = 8
Strike = 11
Range = Long

Kirin-C (Tech Level 7.5, has electronics like the B-52's got incorporated and better fuel from Space Program research like solid fuels)

Air Combat = 9
Strike = 13
Range = Intercontinental

Kirin-D (improved weapons and guidance system, seeing that China is at parity with US and UK in electronics, and China having high end rocket tech)

Air Combat = 9
Strike = 15
Range = Intercontinental
Cruise Missile Capable

Kirin-D should be able to match the B-52-G.

So 12 points total (4 for frigates, 8 for the two cruisers?)

How many frigates are you buying? I meant 4 for each unit. Unless you're only buying 1 frigate.

TLS- that's seems fine to me. Same objectives and same air power?

Perhaps something like this:

Japanese Forces:

1 fighter wing
4 Transport Aircraft
2 Light Infantry Divisions
4 Parachute Brigades

Pakistani Forces:

1 Fighter Wing
2 Infantry Corps


Japanese Objective:
Seize the Emir and Quetta

Pakistani Objective:
Push the Japanese forces back into the sea or another province. OR: Eliminate all Japanese troops

OOC: were can I come from, just any other province and the UIR? I changed the objectives cause I don't think my forces were large enough to spread all over the other administrative capitals.

Also, 1 Parachute Corps= 6 brigades, so can I instead add a Light Infantry division to make up for the loss?

If this is alright with you we can TG GB and see how it turns out.

Perhaps something like this:

Japanese Forces:

1 fighter wing
4 Transport Aircraft
2 Light Infantry Divisions
4 Parachute Brigades

Pakistani Forces:

1 Fighter Wing
2 Infantry Corps


Japanese Objective:
Seize the Emir and Quetta

Pakistani Objective:
Push the Japanese forces back into the sea or another province. OR: Eliminate all Japanese troops

OOC: were can I come from, just any other province and the UIR? I changed the objectives cause I don't think my forces were large enough to spread all over the other administrative capitals.

Also, 1 Parachute Corps= 6 brigades, so can I instead add a Light Infantry division to make up for the loss?

If this is alright with you we can TG GB and see how it turns out.

OOC: Well, you ARE going to be fighting a bunch of angry Islamists. Think Afghanistan and Iraq. But I can see your point. But I don't think capturing Quetta will be enough. How about you capture Quetta and Gwadar, and the emir. You can also have your extra Infantry division, if you want. If you agree to this, send it to GB, since I'm too lazy too :D

sounds good to me. You might want to send him your military plans

ooc. Hey LS and Hanseastic, can the UIR join your excercise? I'm looking to test my military, so...

ooc. Hey LS and Hanseastic, can the UIR join your excercise? I'm looking to test my military, so...

OOC: Actually, this could make it very interesting.

If we were to add the UIR to the War Games, I have this proposal:

I've come up for an idea for a desert combat Scenario.

It can be an "invasion" of Balochistan, of sorts. The Scenario is as follows:

The Emirate of Quetta (encompassing all of Baluchistan) has sponsered a terrorist attack on Japan, in order to try and disrupt its economy and weaken its position in Asia. After learning of this attack, the Japan decides to retaliate against the Emirate, so it launches an invasion of the Emirate.

Once the Japanese capture Gwadar, the Emir, or Quetta, the UIR sends in part of its army to try and assist it's ally and fellow Islamist state, the Emirate, as well as allowing the remaining Emirate forces to go back over the border into the UIR province of Afghanistan (OOC: It would have been Sistan va Baluchistan, but I just realised I control that). Neighboring Pakistan then decides to send in 1 Mechanized Corps.

"Emirate" Forces
2 Infantry Corps
1 Hal Marut Fighter wing

UIR Forces:
1 Mujahideen (AKA Light Infantry) Division
1 fighter wing
___________________________________________________

"Invasion"(AKA Japanese Forces)
1 fighter wing
4 Transport Aircraft
3 Light Infantry Divisions
4 Parachute Brigades

Pakistani Forces:
1 Mechanized Corps
1 Fighter wing

Objectives:
Emirate and UIR: Push back the invading Japanese (and later Pakistani), either to the sea or over the border into the other provinces of Pakistan.
Japan and Pakistan: Capture Quetta, Gwadar, and capture the Emir. Secure the Baluchistan province from a counter-attack by UIR and Emirate forces.

I'm not sure. It's alright with me, but I sent my TG to GB, so it might be good to clear this up quickly so we can change things. Perhaps:

UIR forces:

1 fighter wing
1 mech division
2 infantry divisions

Objective: Capture Turbat, possibly capture as much of the dark orange area on the bottom of the map as possible

Pakistani add ons:

1 fighter wing
1 mech division
2 infantry divisions

Objective: drive UIR forces back past the Pakistan-UIR border

sounds good to everyone?

I like TLS proposal. Is it everyone against me?

I like TLS proposal. Is it everyone against me?

No. It's the Emirate and the UIR against you and me.

On second thought, I'll wait until 1959 and buy level 7.5 ships from France, more bang for my buck so to speak.

I'm ok with the plans. The first big test for my military since the Civil War!

Sorry for my absence for a day or so, lots of school work to catch up on.


Back in Parliament, a move to increase the RAN gains momentum, but with a different focus. Orders on 5 new destroyers are canceled and are replaced with calls for escort cruisers for HMAS Curtin. (escort cruisers protect against aircraft or are missile cruisers more effective?)

AA cruisers are the best against aircraft (hence the name!) but your escorts will help somewhat, they are primarily for screening the bigger ships from subs and such. Missile cruisers are essentially gun cruisers (for surface warfare) with missiles added for AA defence for themselves, but cannot protect much more.

Though, of course, escort cruisers are half the maintenance cost and so you can get twice and many for the same cost.

My revised orders have been sent to GB, I suggest everyone else involved in the exercises does too

My revised orders have been sent to GB, I suggest everyone else involved in the exercises does too

figure Tuesday I will resolve it, as it will take several months to plan, organize and move the troops and ships to the desired area.

I have an important question.

I'd like to try to upgrade my Kirin bombers to better versions, namely raise its strike rating and perhaps even range.

The B-52's had at least 8 upgrades to it, from the original B-52 to the B-52-G's. Can I do the same with my Kirin bombers? If the B-52 can do that, then surely the same thing can be done to the Kirin bombers. Remember, I have a significantly larger aerospace industry, better technology overall, and more necessity for improved aircraft than the RL China in the 1950's and early 1960's.

Here's what I think...

Kirin-A (Original version)

Air Combat = 8
Strike = 9
Range = Long

Kirin-B (Upgaded like the B-52's are)

Air Combat = 8
Strike = 11
Range = Long

Kirin-C (Tech Level 7.5, has electronics like the B-52's got incorporated and better fuel from Space Program research like solid fuels)

Air Combat = 9
Strike = 13
Range = Intercontinental

Kirin-D (improved weapons and guidance system, seeing that China is at parity with US and UK in electronics, and China having high end rocket tech)

Air Combat = 9
Strike = 15
Range = Intercontinental
Cruise Missile Capable

Kirin-D should be able to match the B-52-G.

Bump for reply.

As it stands, the B-52-G has nearly twice the Strike Rating as China's Kirin bomber, so I think its reasonable to say that China can improve the Kirin bomber to match the USA's B-52-G in the same way the USA improved their B-52's from B-52-A to the G series.

Also, I was considering developing and building a bomber based off this exact same airframe...

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/516/ultrabomber6ce.jpg

新星 "Nova" class Strategic Bomber

Proposed in-game stats:

Air Combat: 12 (defense only due to ability to mount substantially more "armor" on the plane)
Strike Rating: 20+ (200 tons worth of bombs and ordinance)
Range: Intercontinental

Special Abilities:

1. Nuclear payload capable
2. All-Weather capable
3. Cruise Missile capable
4. Spacecraft-assist capable (like space shuttles or X-15's)
5. Refueler capable
6. Electronic Warfare capable (AWACS, ECM, counter-ECM, etc.)

Cost: 8 points per "unit"
Maintainence: 2 points a year

-----------------------------------------

Technical Specs:

Crew: 6
Payload: 250,000 kg (551,000 lb or roughly 250+ tons)
Length: 84 m (276 ft)
Wingspan: 88.40 m (291 ft 2 in)
Height: 18.1 m (59.3 ft)
Wing area: 905.0 m² (9,741 ft²)
Empty weight: 175,000 kg (385,800 lb)
Maximum gross takeoff weight: 640,000 kg (1,411,000 lb)

This should be feasible at Tech Level 7.5 given that this would employ nearly the same materials and technologies as the B-52's and the Boeing series jetliners.

In addition, China will have electronics to supply this aircraft with decent guidance systems, RADAR capabilities, electronic warfare, and pretty much the same stuff the later B-52's have.

Also, I was considering developing and building a bomber based off this exact same airframe...

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/516/ultrabomber6ce.jpg

新星 "Nova" class Strategic Bomber

Proposed in-game stats:

Air Combat: 12 (defense only due to ability to mount substantially more "armor" on the plane)
Strike Rating: 20+ (200 tons worth of bombs and ordinance)
Range: Intercontinental

Special Abilities:

1. Nuclear payload capable
2. All-Weather capable
3. Cruise Missile capable
4. Spacecraft-assist capable (like space shuttles or X-15's)
5. Refueler capable
6. Electronic Warfare capable (AWACS, ECM, counter-ECM, etc.)

Cost: 8 points per "unit"
Maintainence: 2 points a year

-----------------------------------------

Technical Specs:

Crew: 6
Payload: 250,000 kg (551,000 lb or roughly 250+ tons)
Length: 84 m (276 ft)
Wingspan: 88.40 m (291 ft 2 in)
Height: 18.1 m (59.3 ft)
Wing area: 905.0 m² (9,741 ft²)
Empty weight: 175,000 kg (385,800 lb)
Maximum gross takeoff weight: 640,000 kg (1,411,000 lb)

This should be feasible at Tech Level 7.5 given that this would employ nearly the same materials and technologies as the B-52's and the Boeing series jetliners.

In addition, China will have electronics to supply this aircraft with decent guidance systems, RADAR capabilities, electronic warfare, and pretty much the same stuff the later B-52's have.


The Antonov An-225 Mriya (NRN 'Cossack') was a super heavy transport aircraft based of a lengthend Antonov An-124 Ruslan (NRN 'Condor'). It is currently the longest aircraft in the world and it's wingspan was exceeded by only the Hughes H-4 Hercules (Spruce goose).

Building into a bomber would be to put it bluntly, stupid. This is because of what the airframe is designed for. It is however great for strategic airlift and I am sure Russia who owns Antonov will be building quite a few of these.

You would have a much better bet by continuing with your Kirin bombers in a similar way to the B-52. Untill stealth tech comes along of course.

USEA military report
Circa 1958


USEAA (Army):

-Central Strategic Army Command: [General Vo Nguyen Giap]
1x HQ Unit (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Elite]

-1st Army Group: [General Tran Van Tra]
1st Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Elite]
2nd Light Infantry Division (Saigon Military Acadamy) [Elite]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Saigon Military Acadamy)
2x Elite pilots (Saigon Military Acadamy)

-2nd Army Group: [General Sunan Mongkut]
3rd Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Elite]
4th Light Infantry Division (Bangkok) [Elite]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport unit (Bangkok)
2x Elite pilot (Bangkok)

-3rd Army Group: [General Lon Nol}
1st Mechanized infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
2nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
1st Armoured Division (Xam Nua) [Elite]
1st Mechanized Artillery Group (Xam Nua) [Elite]

-Saigon Aerial Defence Group:
1x Mechanized Flak group (Saigon) [Elite]

-Bangkok Aerial Defence Group:
1x Mechanized Flak group (Bangkok) [Elite]

-Army Pathfinders [General Van Tin Dungl
1st Special Mechanised Airborne Brigade (Hanoi) [Hand picked]
1x Ht-80 transport unit (Hanoi)
1x Elite pilot (Hanoi)


UIMC (Marines):

-Central Strategic Marine Command: [General Shui Huan Bai]
1x HQ Unit (Nha Trang) [Elite]

-1st Marine Response Unit: [General Sopheap Phirun]
1st Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang) [Elite]
2nd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Nha Trang) [Elite]
1st Marine Mechanized Brigade (Nha Trang) [Elite]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Nha Trang)
2x Elite pilot (Nha Trang)

-2nd Marine Response Unit: [General Quy Vien Tu]
3rd Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Elite]
4th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Elite]
2nd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Louangphrabang) [Elite]
2x Ht-3 Tou Helicopter transport units (Louangphrabang)
2x Elite pilot (Louangphrabang)

-3rd Marine Response Unit: [General Vanna Klahan]
5th Marine Light infantry Brigade (Surat Thani) [Elite]
3rd Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Elite]
4th Marine Mechanized Brigade (Surat Thani) [Elite]
1x Ht-1 Tou Helicopter transport units (Surat Thani)
1x Elite pilot (Surat Thani)

-Marine Air Support Group: [General Phan Anh]
1st Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Laem Chabang)
2nd Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Laem Chabang)
3rd Marine Air Support Wing [A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit] (Laem Chabang)
3x Elite pilot (Laem Chabang)

-Marine Naval Support Group: [Captain Tu Heng Jing]
Jiao Commando Assault carrier (Cam Ranh)


USEAAF (Airforce):

-Central Strategic Airforce Command: [General Klahan Dai Sunan]
1x HQ Unit (Vinh) [Elite]

- 1st Air Superiority Group: [General Chu Van Tan]
1st Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage III fighter unit] (Vinh)
2nd Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage III fighter unit] (Vinh)
2x Elite pilot (Vinh)

- 2nd Air Superiority Group: [General Hoko Bao An]
3rd Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage III fighter unit] (Nakhon Sawan)
4th Air Superiority Wing [Dassault Mirage III fighter unit] (Nakhon Sawan)
2x Elite pilot (Nakhon Sawan)

-1st Tactical Bombing Group: [General Nyugen An Phong]
1st Tactical Bomber Wing [Hong-6 Light bomber Unit] (Saigon)
2nd Tactical Bomber Wing [Hong-6 Light bomber Unit] (Saigon)
2x Elite pilots (Saigon)

-Airforce Transport Divison:
1st Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Vinh)
2nd Heavy Transport Wing [C124 Globemaster II Heavy transport unit] (Vinh)
2x Elite pilots (Vinh)



USEAN (Navy):

-South China Sea Fleet: [Admiral Quy An Quang]
Nyugen Ai QUoc Heavy fleet carrier battle group (Cam Ranh)
F8U Crusader fighter unit (Nyugen Ai Quoc CV, Cam Ranh Naval Air Station)
Zhao Tou Light missile cruiser (Cam Ranh)
Lan Xang Heavy Missile cruiser (Cam Ranh)
1x light ship unit (10 destroyers) (Cam Ranh)
Vinh Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Cam Ranh)

-Andaman Sea Fleet: [Admiral Xue Wu Zhou]
Indochina Heavy fleet carrier battle group (Phuket)
F8U Crusader fighter unit (Indochina CV, Sattahip Naval Air Station)
Lac Long Quan Light missile cruiser (Phuket)
Au Co Light missile cruiser (Phuket)
Hue Shou Class Nuclear Attack Submarine (Phuket)

-Northern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Pich Veasna]
1x light ship unit (40 corvettes) (Haiphong)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Haiphong)

-Southern Coast Guard Patrol Group: [Admiral Leon Yann]
1x light ship unit (40 corvettes) (Bangkok)
1x Coastal Patrol Group (Bangkok)

-Naval Transport Department:
2x Amphibious Assault Groups


Merchant Navy:

12,000,000 tons of shipping


IIA (Indnochinese Inteligiance Agency):

8,000 Anlysts
Ocean Trawlers


Nuclear weapons stockpile:
37 Boosted fission bombs
72 Hydrogen Bombs

1958 State of Syrian Military
Royal Syrian Army
Mechanized Guard

1st Armored Division (Damascus, Elite)
1st Mechanized Infantry Division (Aleppo, Elite)
1st Mechanized Artillery Division (Beirut, Elite)
1st Mechanized Flak Division (Damascus, Elite)

Army Border Patrols

1st Mountain Brigade (northern border, Average)
2nd Mountain Brigade (Eastern Border, Average)
3rd Mountain Brigade (Northern Border, Average)

Army Air Corps

1st Helicopter Unit (Aleppo, Average)

Royal Syrian Reserves

Syrian Reserves (Average Garrison, Damascus)
Lebanese Reserves (Average Garrison, Beirut)


Royal Syrian Navy
-Currently has no ships under command, ships expected by 1959-60-

Royal Syrian Coastal Patrol

40 patrol vessels (average, dispersed)

Fufills customs and patrol duties

Royal Syrian Air Forces (space and missile corps merged into in 1957)
Combat Air Wings

1st Fighter Wing (100 Mirage IIIC, elite pilots, Beirut)
1st Air Support Wing (100 Do-337, elite pilots, Aleppo)

Missile Corps

no signifigant numbers of rockets
no chemical weapons, although capability to build maintained

Syrian Air Defense

Syrian Air Defense is based outside of Beirut. Information from ALADN stations, both in Syria and throughout the Arab League, coordinate information, supported by Egyptian E-1 Tracer aircraft. Any threats are immediately reported to Army and Air Force command centers so proper action can be taken. In appropriate cases, neighboring nations are informed of threats so they can adequately perform (OOC: any AL member would be informed, and we'd likely let the Cypriot nations know, but not Turkey)

Japanese Military Forces


Hokkaido Self-Defense Force:
1 Garrison Unit:
4 Elite Parachute Brigades: Wakkanai
4 C82's w/ 2 elite, 2 expert pilots: Wakkanai
5 Mirgae III's with elite Pilots: Wakkanai

Shikoku Self-Defense Force:
1 Garrison Unit: Tokashima

Honshu Self-Defense Force:
1 Garrison Unit: Tokyo
1 Garrison Unit: Kyoto
1 Garrison Unit: Hiroshima
1 Elite Light Infantry Division (emperor's guard): Tokyo
1 Elite Light Infantry Division: Kyoto
1 Elite Light Infantry Division: Hiroshima
4 Flak Group's: 1 each in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Kyoto, and Yokohoma

Kyushu Self-Defense Force
1 Garrison Unit: Nagasaki
1 Flak Unit: Nagasaki

Japanese Self-Defense Fleet
2 Corvette Units, 3 Frigate Units, 1 Destroyer Unit: Yokohoma

All parachute Brigades, 3 Light Infantry Divisions, 1 MirageIII and 4 C82's are being moved to Pakistan for exercises

The Antonov An-225 Mriya (NRN 'Cossack') was a super heavy transport aircraft based of a lengthend Antonov An-124 Ruslan (NRN 'Condor'). It is currently the longest aircraft in the world and it's wingspan was exceeded by only the Hughes H-4 Hercules (Spruce goose).

Building into a bomber would be to put it bluntly, stupid. This is because of what the airframe is designed for. It is however great for strategic airlift and I am sure Russia who owns Antonov will be building quite a few of these.

You would have a much better bet by continuing with your Kirin bombers in a similar way to the B-52. Untill stealth tech comes along of course.

The fact is that having a plane capable of delivering over 200 tons worh of bombs and ordiance (including cruise missiles) will serve China well, given that the Kirin as it stands right now has nearly half the strike rating of the current US B-52's (9 to 15 respectively).

Also, I can easily escort these titanic bombers with my masses of fighter units. Wonder why I built 24 fighter units in the first place? ;) That'd be 2 fighter units covering each bomber unit, and my 10 Mechanized Flak corps will have quite the capability to cover each major Chinese city while my fighters are away covering the titanic bombers.

Besides, just one of these titanic bombers will have enough ordiance to sink quite a few carriers, battleships, and heavy cruisers making a naval attack aganist China a quite pricey and risky proposition. Also, these bombers can take out stacks of enemy units easily, as each "Nova" bomber will have roughly 3x - 4x the carrying capacity of the B-52's in terms of ordinance.

This will give China equal footing with the B-52's of the USA and the B-70's of Colombia.

Also, I was considering developing and building a bomber based off this exact same airframe...

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/516/ultrabomber6ce.jpg

新星 "Nova" class Strategic Bomber

Proposed in-game stats:

Air Combat: 12 (defense only due to ability to mount substantially more "armor" on the plane)
Strike Rating: 20+ (200 tons worth of bombs and ordinance)
Range: Intercontinental

Special Abilities:

1. Nuclear payload capable
2. All-Weather capable
3. Cruise Missile capable
4. Spacecraft-assist capable (like space shuttles or X-15's)
5. Refueler capable
6. Electronic Warfare capable (AWACS, ECM, counter-ECM, etc.)

Cost: 8 points per "unit"
Maintainence: 2 points a year

-----------------------------------------

Technical Specs:

Crew: 6
Payload: 250,000 kg (551,000 lb or roughly 250+ tons)
Length: 84 m (276 ft)
Wingspan: 88.40 m (291 ft 2 in)
Height: 18.1 m (59.3 ft)
Wing area: 905.0 m² (9,741 ft²)
Empty weight: 175,000 kg (385,800 lb)
Maximum gross takeoff weight: 640,000 kg (1,411,000 lb)

This should be feasible at Tech Level 7.5 given that this would employ nearly the same materials and technologies as the B-52's and the Boeing series jetliners.

In addition, China will have electronics to supply this aircraft with decent guidance systems, RADAR capabilities, electronic warfare, and pretty much the same stuff the later B-52's have.


I will think about it and give you some stats for it Tuesday

The fact is that having a plane capable of delivering over 200 tons worh of bombs and ordiance (including cruise missiles) will serve China well, given that the Kirin as it stands right now has nearly half the strike rating of the current US B-52's (9 to 15 respectively).

Also, I can easily escort these titanic bombers with my masses of fighter units. Wonder why I built 24 fighter units in the first place? ;) That'd be 2 fighter units covering each bomber unit, and my 10 Mechanized Flak corps will have quite the capability to cover each major Chinese city while my fighters are away covering the titanic bombers.

Besides, just one of these titanic bombers will have enough ordiance to sink quite a few carriers, battleships, and heavy cruisers making a naval attack aganist China a quite pricey and risky proposition. Also, these bombers can take out stacks of enemy units easily, as each "Nova" bomber will have roughly 3x - 4x the carrying capacity of the B-52's in terms of ordinance.

This will give China equal footing with the B-52's of the USA and the B-70's of Colombia.

Hmm... Im still not too sure that it would be an entirely sensible thing to do.
The huge price and maintenace cost alone would convince me to stick with the Kirin series.

Hmm... Im still not too sure that it would be an entirely sensible thing to do.
The huge price and maintenace cost alone would convince me to stick with the Kirin series.

Sometimes it is necessary to have overwhelming power to match some of the bombers out there. The Kirin is one of the weaker strategic bombers considering the US and UK and other bombers. It doesn't have intercontinental range, nor as high strike capability as the US, UK, etc.

Thus, this new bomber proposal to give China a B-52 equalivent.

I don't think I've updated in a while so:

United Republics Military (As of Jan, 1958)
5 Elite Trained Garrison Units
4 Elite Trained Mountain Infantry Brigades
4 Elite Trained Armored Divisions
4 Elite Pilots
2 Elite Trained Armored Brigades
2 Elite Trained Light Infantry Divisions
2 Elite Trained Flak Brigades
2 Dassault Mirage III
2 HQ’s
1 Elite Trained Mechanized Divisions
1 Heavy Carrier Battlegroup
1 E-1 Tracer
Intelligence Agency
National Air Defense Network
Civil Defense

Builds Ready by Next Year (1959)
None

Sometimes it is necessary to have overwhelming power to match some of the bombers out there. The Kirin is one of the weaker strategic bombers considering the US and UK and other bombers. It doesn't have intercontinental range, nor as high strike capability as the US, UK, etc.

Thus, this new bomber proposal to give China a B-52 equalivent.

Its a waste of resources firstly, and being the huge lumbering target that it is as missile tech gets better all its going to be is just that, a target. I don't care how much electronics you shove on that, as big as it is it will get shot down before it can drop any bombs over its target, and if your just going to use it for cruise misiles exc there's cheaper, more effective ways to go with that.

Its a waste of resources firstly, and being the huge lumbering target that it is as missile tech gets better all its going to be is just that, a target. I don't care how much electronics you shove on that, as big as it is it will get shot down before it can drop any bombs over its target, and if your just going to use it for cruise misiles exc there's cheaper, more effective ways to go with that.

Actually, I can alleviate this problem somewhat by mounting 50 tons worth of armor on this, and reducing the bomb payload to 150 tons.

There's a reason why missiles are ineffective aganist Iowa class battleships except for bunker busters and JDAMS. I can't see an air-to-air version of bunker busters or JDAMS.

Besides, how is the B-52 any different? Its also a huge lumbering target as well.

---------------------------------

On a second note, I want to use this plane for everything.

1. Bomber role
2. Commercial airplanes (like the Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A-380)
3. Air freight
4. Support space programs with space shuttles or X-15 planes (like the US does in RL)
5. Extra large sized refueler planes (200+ tons worth of fuel for refueling purposes)

And so on.

Using one air frame for everything will simplify logistics and complexity of things by quite a bit. Instead of developing 10 or 20 different plane types, just use one generic plane and then customize the air frame to whatever job is desired of it (and have lots of space within to do it as well).

--------------------------------

EDIT:

To put this into perpsective, I want this airframe to act like this...

B-52, Boeing 747 / 747-400, C-5 Galaxy, Hawkeye, Air Force One, etc. all rolled in one jumbo-sized airframe.

50 tons of armor? There is a reason why planes like this aren't used, and the B-52 is not close to this, its what, half the size and its already a lumbering target that wouldn't last two seconds against a modern airforce which is why its used mostly to launch cruise missiles.

You can't compare it to the Iowa either. The Iowa has a whole lot thicker armor than what your going to put on this if you want it to fly. Go ahead and build them if you want, but honestly, it is a waste and a dumb idea. It serves no point. Huge superweapons sound great and look great on paper, but seldom ever work.

50 tons of armor? There is a reason why planes like this aren't used, and the B-52 is not close to this, its what, half the size and its already a lumbering target that wouldn't last two seconds against a modern airforce which is why its used mostly to launch cruise missiles.

You can't compare it to the Iowa either. The Iowa has a whole lot thicker armor than what your going to put on this if you want it to fly. Go ahead and build them if you want, but honestly, it is a waste and a dumb idea. It serves no point. Huge superweapons sound great and look great on paper, but seldom ever work.

Bombers aren't the only purpose of this airframe (note my second ideas and edit).

I want this to serve EVERYTHING, from bombing roles to commercial air flights (Boeing 747 / Airbus A380) to Air Force One for China's leaders to refueler planes to oversized AWACS / sensory platforms to giant ECM / Counter-ECM planes, to space support program (aid Space Shuttles, X-15's, and space "planes" in flight) and so on.

The Chinese "Nova" air frame should serve as a "Omni-Function" plane, capable of being converted to ANY application.

Lets put this into perpsective... The "Nova" air frame could cover all the following...

Bomber Role:

B-52 (A through G)
B-57
B-70
F-105
A-5
A-10 Thunderbird
Vickers Valiant
RB-47

(the list goes on)

Electronics / ASW / AWACS Role:

E1 Tracer
S2 Tracker ASW
E121 Warning Star
P2v Neptune

(list goes on)

Transport Role:

C82
C124
C123
C130
C133
C-5 Galaxy

(list goes on)

Tanker / Refueler Role:

KC97
Lamsong (Kirin type)
Lincoln
Handley
KC135

(list goes on)

Commercial Jetliners:

Boeing 747
Boeing 747-400
Boeing 757, 767, 777...
Airbus A320, A330, A340....
Airbus A380

(list goes on)

Space Support Role:

Specialized Boeing 747

Other Roles:

Air Freight
Air Force One
Sensor platform
Electronic jamming (ECM)
Counter-jamming (ECCM)

(list goes on)

-------------------------------

See how many planes this jumbo jet will be able to replace? Instead of having 20+ different airframes to maintain, build parts for, construct (20+ different aircraft plants building hundreds of different planes), etc.

Having one airframe be capable of being modified or customized to meet all these requirements with A LOT of interior space (200+ tons capability) should ensure that this aircraft should be able to stay in service until beyond 2050 or later as there's A LOT of room for improvement, expansion, modifications, etc.

Standardization of all these aircraft roles into one air frame (not everything in one plane, but rather a single plane chassis being able to be customized to service a particular role) would cut down a lot of maintainence, bureaucracy, overhead, etc.

All I have to do is build parts and such for ONE type of plane, not 20+ types. I will only need to establish maintainence facilities and such for ONE plane, not 20+.

The only different planes from this would be fighters, carrier planes, and stealth planes.

That way, China will only need to service / maintain at least 4 different plane types (Nova class, a fighter- the Mirages, carrier planes, and stealth planes) instead of 20, 30, 40+ different types like the US and UK does.

armor is not terribly relevent to modern aircraft except if its going to get down low and engage is forward air support. No modern bomber has any substantial armor. Instead, they have tons of space devoted to electronic counter measures.

Even then, they either fly very high in order to avoid most SAMs and interceptors, or very low to make detection by radar difficult.

Your An225 type bomber would indeed have a very high strike rating, about a 12 or 15, but its air combat value would be relatively low (about an 8) with all of the ECM it has.

You can't armor engines at this tech level... need tech level 8 for that (look at the A10 Thunderbolt as an example)

armor is not terribly relevent to modern aircraft except if its going to get down low and engage is forward air support. No modern bomber has any substantial armor. Instead, they have tons of space devoted to electronic counter measures.

Even then, they either fly very high in order to avoid most SAMs and interceptors, or very low to make detection by radar difficult.

Your An225 type bomber would indeed have a very high strike rating, about a 12 or 15, but its air combat value would be relatively low (about an 8) with all of the ECM it has.

You can't armor engines at this tech level... need tech level 8 for that (look at the A10 Thunderbolt as an example)

Perhaps the option to "armor" this bomber can wait until Tech 8 (upping the air combat to 10 or 12 by then?).

What about the option to "improve" or "tweak" the Nova Bomber or the existing Kirin class in the same way the US did with its B-52's?

Also, I want to use this for all kinds of applications like I've stated above. That should give this aircraft a similiar long lifespan or even longer than the B-52 (I believe the B-52 is slated to remain in service until 2050 or so in RL).

That means I won't need to design or develop new "heavy" aircraft until 2050 or later with the exception of stealth bombers or such like the FA-111 or B-2's or Raptors or JSF's.

How does it take to start Space Plane flights?

I want to know because I want to have Space Planes to be able to fly to and from the Space Station.

Parthini']How does it take to start Space Plane flights?

I want to know because I want to have Space Planes to be able to fly to and from the Space Station.

build an X15 equiv (at least tech level 7for suborbital), then improved ICBMs or solid fuel ICBMs (to get it into orbit), then the X20 (which can get further out and is tech level 7.5) and then heavy lift rockets and the space shuttle (shuttle is tech level 8)

single stage to orbit is tech level 9

Tech level 7.5 changes

Maintenance costs include upgrading for the better avionics and electronics available at this tech level. It does the same for any warship that was upgraded from tech level 6 to 7 earlier, and anything built at tech level 7 (mainly for simplicity)

a lot of people suddenly want to have wargames... which is fine, but these things are expensive you know. Suggested rule.. any ground unit that is moved out of its home country costs an extra .25 points for that year. Air and naval units don't have to pay this.

There is a reason that nations don't routinely send their armies all over the world without good reason. Massive exercises are expensive after all. So is shipping and airlift.

Perhaps the option to "armor" this bomber can wait until Tech 8 (upping the air combat to 10 or 12 by then?).

What about the option to "improve" or "tweak" the Nova Bomber or the existing Kirin class in the same way the US did with its B-52's?

Also, I want to use this for all kinds of applications like I've stated above. That should give this aircraft a similiar long lifespan or even longer than the B-52 (I believe the B-52 is slated to remain in service until 2050 or so in RL).

That means I won't need to design or develop new "heavy" aircraft until 2050 or later with the exception of stealth bombers or such like the FA-111 or B-2's or Raptors or JSF's.

the Kirin can be improved.. a Kirin II will be available soon.

build an X15 equiv (at least tech level 7for suborbital), then improved ICBMs or solid fuel ICBMs (to get it into orbit), then the X20 (which can get further out and is tech level 7.5) and then heavy lift rockets and the space shuttle (shuttle is tech level 8)

single stage to orbit is tech level 9

Ok, so where does the Space Plane research come in?

And how much do all of those cost?

Parthini']Ok, so where does the Space Plane research come in?

And how much do all of those cost?

see this part of the military thread.. space and missile research is covered
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10562060&postcount=4

Japan is selling 6 pre-7.5 tech frigate flotillasand 3 destroyer units. Anyone interested respond. They will be sold at discount

New military rules and units for tech level 7.5
At tech level 7.5, automation has become more important

Old rule
In peacetime, the limit is one corps, four divisions, twelve brigades or 6 air/naval units per 5 million people in your nation.

New rule
In peacetime, the limit is one corps, 4 divisions, 12 brigades, 6 air units, or 10 naval units per 5 million people in your nation if your nation is tech level 7.5 or higher.

Other new rules
Munitions are also more expensive (guided weapons aren’t cheap).
In wartime, or if a military unit is used in combat, the maintenance cost for that unit is increased by .25 for every 3 months it is in combat (so a year would be an increase of +1). At the end of the first year in which the national economy is at national effort or wartime, this extra cost goes away (economies of scale kick in). Light infantry units do not ever pay this extra cost as they don’t have much artillery and have few missiles (if any).

Special Note: mechanized units cannot be airlifted.

Prepositioning: Allies can arrange to store military equipment in one another’s nation. This doubles the base cost of the unit in question, but during time of crisis or war, the personnel can be airlifted from the home nation to the host nation where they meet up with their prepositioned equipment and vehicles. Prepositioned equipment is destroyed if the enemy occupies the area where it is stored, and it can suffer damage from air strikes.

STOL: Aircraft marked with STOL and all helicopters do not need an airbase to land and operate from. They can even use a highway in an emergency or a reasonably prepared grass or snow field.

Naval
ASW frigate unit (2 ships) cost 5, maintenance .25 (already posted on first page)
Destroyer unit (2 ships) cost 6, maintenance .25

Both can carry 1 (frigate) or 2 (destroyer) helicopters, plus are equipped with SAMs, a rapid fire gun, ASW torpedoes, and anti ship missiles. Negates the advantage nuclear submarines have over tech level 7 or older anti submarine warfare ships

2nd generation nuclear attack submarines cost 6, maintenance .5, has an advantage over older tech level 7 submarines, which cannot be upgraded to equal them. (hull designs have improved, along with a number of other factors).

Any cruiser or carrier is automatically upgraded to tech level 7.5 during annual maintenance (more space available aboard for the better electronics)

Aircraft
The U2, 3rd generation fighters, all light, heavy and strategic bombers, and all transport aircraft automatically are upgraded to tech level 7.5 by spending annual maintenance. Older aircraft cannot be upgraded.

New aircraft
3rd Generation fighters
F12 Blackbird air combat 16, strike 0, range long, cost 10, maintenance 5, all weather interceptor version 1959 (US)

Light bombers
A6 Intruder air combat 11 (defense only), strike 6, maritime strike 6, range medium, all weather carrier bomber, cost 4, maintenance 2, (US)
FB111 Aardvark air combat 11 (defense only), strike 8, maritime strike 6, range long, all weather (US)

Special Note: Mig 15bis, Saab Lansen, SU5, and SU 7 are STOL capable

Electronic Warfare
EA6 Prowler air combat 14 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather carrier EW/Jamming aircraft. Cost 5, maintenance 3, reduces the effectiveness of enemy anti aircraft defenses and interceptors
EFB111 Raven air combat 15 (defense only), strike 0, maritime strike 0, all weather EW/Jamming aircraft, cost 5, maintenance 4, capabilities as per EA6

Wild Weasel
Any 3rd Generation light bomber or fighter with a strike rating of 2 or better can be converted into defense suppression aircraft. Air combat becomes defense only (and remains unchanged), Strike value is 0, but acts as a EW/Jamming aircraft. Maintenance costs are doubled.

Heavy and Strategic bombers
China Aviation Kirin B air combat 10, strike 10, maritime strike 5, range long, (China) 1961
Condor air combat 16 (defense only), strike 6, maritime strike 4, range intercontinental cost 8, maintenance 4, all weather Mach 3 bomber (the B70) FNS 1961

Transport aircraft
Special Notes: All Transport units can carry 2 light infantry brigades, or air drop 1 parachute brigade or carry the personnel for 1 prepositioned division or 3 prepositioned brigades. Exceptions are listed.

C141 Starlifter air combat 5, strike 0, range intercontinental, cost 3, maintenance .5, US 1960

IL76 air combat 4, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance .5, Scandic, STOL capable, 1960

Do 500 air combat 3, strike 0, range intercontinental, cost 3, maintenance .5, German, STOL capable, can carry 1 light infantry division or airdrop 1 parachute division or carry personnel for 2 preposition divisions. (essentially the AN22) 1959

Special Note: the C130 and AN12 are STOL capable.


Airborne Early Warning Aircraft
Tech level 7.5 twin engine AEW aircraft provide a +2 to air combat/air defenses, while 4 engine aircraft provide a +3. Existing 4 engine early warning aircraft are upgraded for free during maintenance once reaching tech level 7.5

E2 Tracker air defense 1, strike 0, range long, cost 3, maintenance 3, replaces E1 Tracer, (US)

Intelligence gathering
RC135 Rivet Joint air defense 3, strike 0, range long, cost 10, maintenance 5, provides intelligence (signals) gathering information (improves codebreaking chances, which becomes automatic for nations with a lower tech level then the owner). (US)

SR71 Blackbird air combat 20 (defense only), strike 0, range intercontinental cost 10, maintenance 5, all weather intelligence gathering aircraft 1958 (US)
Provides the same capability as a spy satellite, but has the advantage of being flexible (and thus hard to predict). This improves intelligence gathering.


(coming soon aircraft on page 1 added as they become available)

GB, I have a few questions.

First, how much will it take (time, point-wise, and tech) for China to develop a bomber to equal the B-52-G? Or how many upgrades for the Kirin to equal the B-52's?

Second, what will it take for China to develop a counterpart to the SR-70 (mainly for spying and a deterrant to the US's SR-70 fighter versions)? I remember in RL, the Soviets tried to come up with a SR-70 equalivent, a MiG. I can't remember whether it was MiG-23 or MiG-25.

Finally, I was wondering if there's any word yet on my "Nova" air-frame? Remember I want to use this for a lot of plane types like a heavy or strategic bomber, AEW aircraft, AWACS for air support, transport planes, commercial jet-liners (like the Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A380), an Air Force One for China's leadership, support planes for the space program (like the US does for its Space Shuttles and X-15 planes in RL)... and so on.

------------------------------

Basically, I'm trying to reach parity with the US and UK in aircraft technology considering that China already is at parity with the US and UK in electronics and a few other technologies like hydro power and farming and urban planning and such.

GB, I have a few questions.

First, how much will it take (time, point-wise, and tech) for China to develop a bomber to equal the B-52-G? Or how many upgrades for the Kirin to equal the B-52's?

Second, what will it take for China to develop a counterpart to the SR-70 (mainly for spying and a deterrant to the US's SR-70 fighter versions)? I remember in RL, the Soviets tried to come up with a SR-70 equalivent, a MiG. I can't remember whether it was MiG-23 or MiG-25.

Finally, I was wondering if there's any word yet on my "Nova" air-frame? Remember I want to use this for a lot of plane types like a heavy or strategic bomber, AEW aircraft, AWACS for air support, transport planes, commercial jet-liners (like the Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A380), an Air Force One for China's leadership, support planes for the space program (like the US does for its Space Shuttles and X-15 planes in RL)... and so on.

------------------------------

Basically, I'm trying to reach parity with the US and UK in aircraft technology considering that China already is at parity with the US and UK in electronics and a few other technologies like hydro power and farming and urban planning and such.

I think the Mig-25 was the Soviet's equivalent. It was the fastest planes in the world at this point (like mach 2.5 in afterburner I think)

It was the Mig-25 (2nd fastest production airplane ever IIRC, after SR-71)

GB, I have a few questions.

First, how much will it take (time, point-wise, and tech) for China to develop a bomber to equal the B-52-G? Or how many upgrades for the Kirin to equal the B-52's?

Different aircraft with a different mission. If you read over the coming soon aircraft, you will notice the Mirage IV is coming soon. Its not the B52, but its going to be as good as the FB111 the US is working on. In short, the Kirin will not catch up with the B52 in bombload, but will catch up eventually in air combat value


Second, what will it take for China to develop a counterpart to the SR-70 (mainly for spying and a deterrant to the US's SR-70 fighter versions)? I remember in RL, the Soviets tried to come up with a SR-70 equalivent, a MiG. I can't remember whether it was MiG-23 or MiG-25.

You are thinking of the Mig25 and Mig31, neither of which ever successfully engaged an SR71

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mig25.html

You need the SA300 SAM for that, and its tech level 8. The SR71 flies high enough and fast enough to be damn near a spacecraft. The F12 is designed for intercepting the B70 (should anyone but the FNS build one), and notice the US hasn't wasted money on it yet.

Intercepting space craft is a tech level 8 technology (and a tough one too)


Finally, I was wondering if there's any word yet on my "Nova" air-frame? Remember I want to use this for a lot of plane types like a heavy or strategic bomber, AEW aircraft, AWACS for air support, transport planes, commercial jet-liners (like the Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A380), an Air Force One for China's leadership, support planes for the space program (like the US does for its Space Shuttles and X-15 planes in RL)... and so on.

Nova Bomber air defense 8, strike 16, maritime strike 8, range long, cost 5, maintenance 3 (notice its cheaper then a B52, bigger bombload, but much easier to shoot down and has less range without aerial refueling) available 1 year after China hits tech level 7.5.

Nova AEW version would be equal to an E121 at tech level 7.5 (which also improved). Tanker version would be able to refuel 2 strategic or heavy bomber units, or 4 other units, while the transport version would actually be able to carry 1 mechanized brigade or 1 non mechanized division. These versions (tanker, AEW and transport) have an air defense rating of 2 and a long range. Costs for tanker is 4, transport 4, and AEW is 6, while maintenance is 1, 1, and 3.

------------------------------

Basically, I'm trying to reach parity with the US and UK in aircraft technology considering that China already is at parity with the US and UK in electronics and a few other technologies like hydro power and farming and urban planning and such.

That will be tough, as the US and UK are going to reach Tech Level 8 before you do. In other words, the Oceanic powers are about to leap ahead because they have a higher industrial capability and bigger economy per capita (while yours is bigger in absolute terms).

Combined, the Oceanic Powers also still have a larger economy then the Asian nations do.

Although after thinking about it, having nations reach tech level 8 in 1963 troubles me. I am pondering a soluation to that. Hitting at 1970 is bad enough (a decade earlier then real life).

On the other hand, the planet is far more industralized than it was historically at this point, so its not completely insane.

Different aircraft with a different mission. If you read over the coming soon aircraft, you will notice the Mirage IV is coming soon. Its not the B52, but its going to be as good as the FB111 the US is working on. In short, the Kirin will not catch up with the B52 in bombload, but will catch up eventually in air combat value

Good enough for me.

You need the SA300 SAM for that, and its tech level 8. The SR71 flies high enough and fast enough to be damn near a spacecraft. The F12 is designed for intercepting the B70 (should anyone but the FNS build one), and notice the US hasn't wasted money on it yet.

Intercepting space craft is a tech level 8 technology (and a tough one too)

Understood. However what will it take for China to build its own versions of the SR-71?

Nova Bomber air defense 8, strike 16, maritime strike 8, range long, cost 5, maintenance 3 (notice its cheaper then a B52, bigger bombload, but much easier to shoot down and has less range without aerial refueling) available 1 year after China hits tech level 7.5.

Nova AEW version would be equal to an E121 at tech level 7.5 (which also improved). Tanker version would be able to refuel 2 strategic or heavy bomber units, or 4 other units, while the transport version would actually be able to carry 1 mechanized brigade or 1 non mechanized division. These versions (tanker, AEW and transport) have an air defense rating of 2 and a long range. Costs for tanker is 4, transport 4, and AEW is 6, while maintenance is 1, 1, and 3.

I can live with that as well.

However, I'd like the possibility to upgrade the Nova airframe in the future, like at Tech Level 8 (better electronics, aerodynamics, engines, etc.) seeing that I want to keep this airframe around until 2050 at least.

That will be tough, as the US and UK are going to reach Tech Level 8 before you do. In other words, the Oceanic powers are about to leap ahead because they have a higher industrial capability and bigger economy per capita (while yours is bigger in absolute terms).

Combined, the Oceanic Powers also still have a larger economy then the Asian nations do.

Although after thinking about it, having nations reach tech level 8 in 1963 troubles me. I am pondering a soluation to that. Hitting at 1970 is bad enough (a decade earlier then real life).

On the other hand, the planet is far more industralized than it was historically at this point, so its not completely insane.

I'm thinking Tech Level 8 by 1975 at the earliest should be reasonable.

I, however, disagree about the economy issue. Suppose China, Pakistan, USEA, Japan, UIR, Burma, etc. reaches at least 50% industrial potential (China is at roughly 45% or so right now in 1958 / 59).

That's still a bit more than Australia, FNS, Canada, US, and UK combined. The OA combined should be roughly 300 million to 400 million population (USA = 180, FNS = 100, UK = 75?, Australia = 20? Canada = 30?) while the SCT already surpasses the 1 billion mark combined (China = 600 in 1960, Pakistan = 450 million, Japan = 90 - 100 million, USEA = 30+ million, Burma = 22 million, Philippines = 22 million)

All these population figures are my estimate for 1960 - 1965 population levels.

So technically, the SCT has quadruple the OA's population which means the SCT only needs to achieve 25% economic productivity in all of its nations to equal the maximum economic productivity of the OA.

But I do see your point about social services and such. Factoring that in, the SCT should be roughly equal to the OA with room for plenty of growth while the OA has pretty much capped out its economic productivity (US, UK, Australia have already capped out max productivity, dunno about FNS though).

Understood. However what will it take for China to build its own versions of the SR-71?

possible, which is why the US has the potential F12 around. Figure about 1965.


I'm thinking Tech Level 8 by 1975 at the earliest should be reasonable.

Discussing it with Malkyer.. my suggestion: add 10 years of electronics instead of 5, improved communications satellites, and earliest possible date of 1970 plus the requirements already in effect.


I, however, disagree about the economy issue. Suppose China, Pakistan, USEA, Japan, UIR, Burma, etc. reaches at least 50% industrial potential (China is at roughly 45% or so right now in 1958 / 59).

That's still a bit more than Australia, FNS, Canada, US, and UK combined. The OA combined should be roughly 300 million to 400 million population (USA = 180, FNS = 100, UK = 75?, Australia = 20? Canada = 30?) while the SCT already surpasses the 1 billion mark combined (China = 600 in 1960, Pakistan = 450 million, Japan = 90 - 100 million, USEA = 30+ million, Burma = 22 million, Philippines = 22 million)

All these population figures are my estimate for 1960 - 1965 population levels.

So technically, the SCT has quadruple the OA's population which means the SCT only needs to achieve 25% economic productivity in all of its nations to equal the maximum economic productivity of the OA.

But I do see your point about social services and such. Factoring that in, the SCT should be roughly equal to the OA with room for plenty of growth while the OA has pretty much capped out its economic productivity (US, UK, Australia have already capped out max productivity, dunno about FNS though).

Except that the productivity cap expands at tech level 8, and the Oceanic Nations will get to tech level 8 considerably sooner then the SCT nations will except for Japan and USAE. Which means that they will hit a boom sooner.

The other issue is going to be that energy and pollution problem...the Oceanic nations don't require nearly as much as the SCT nations will and have more of their own energy sources.

Discussing it with Malkyer.. my suggestion: add 10 years of electronics instead of 5, improved communications satellites, and earliest possible date of 1970 plus the requirements already in effect.



Should include more than that, should be more restrictive. Anybody can pay points for 10 years.

Can the the various Turkics(Turkey, CAR, Azerbaijan) share a single ETU95 unit? None of them have enough aircraft, or can support a big enough airforce to need a whole unit to themselves and they are all allied and neighboring.

possible, which is why the US has the potential F12 around. Figure about 1965.

That works for me.

Discussing it with Malkyer.. my suggestion: add 10 years of electronics instead of 5, improved communications satellites, and earliest possible date of 1970 plus the requirements already in effect.

Hmm. I prefer to have slightly different conditions- mainly because it'll be just as easy to reach tech level 8 ad it was for 7.5 for small nations like Syria, Italy, France, Nigeria, Burma, Greece, or even the "-stans" nations with the current system in place (the original system plus the recently revised one).

I was thinking of adding several more conditions...

1. Level 4 social services (needs highly educated populace for all the computer and electronics prevalent in Tech 8)

2. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)

3. Develop personal computers (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)

4. Have good communication networks (cable and satellite networks)



So I was thinking of the following set of conditions (with a choice between options for one or two of them)

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 20 years
2. Created a IMPROVED communications network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one (satellite and cable).
3. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
4. Has an airline and tourist industry.
5. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)
6. Develop personal computers, part of 10 year micro-electronics development (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)

7th condition has 2 options (must meet either one)

7a. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years

OR

7b. Level 4 social services for more than 10 years (high education = must).

-------------------------------

Share your thoughts and feedback on this proposed ideas.

Also I feel that 1975 should be the earliest anyone reaches Tech 8, instead of 1970 (as we don't have the tech race of the Cold War- the build-up and one-upmanship between the USA and USSR... yet in E20).

Cross-posting this in the Economic thread as well.

OOC:

Guys, I was wondering what the feasibility of designing an SSN based on the RL Dreadnaught or Valiant Classes would be for Korea...barring that (since we have a UK Player), perhaps I could base it off of a Victor I Class sub.

I know this is early but how are space weapons going to work? I want space marines and orbital weapons platforms and space cruisers and Deathstars.

All of which are centuries away except maybe limited weapons platforms.

Meh.

Well when can we start having space battles. Even if they mimic the Monitor vs the Merrimack...

1. Level 4 social services (needs highly educated populace for all the computer and electronics prevalent in Tech 8)

level 3 spending assumes that the majority of the population has high school diplomas and a large percentage also have college degrees. Which is adequate.


2. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)

pollution control measures like catalytic converters hit the market at tech level 8, not at tech level 7.5, as do most of the other pollution control measures


3. Develop personal computers (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)


Apple II hit the market in 1979, the internet was invented in the 1970s as a way for the US National Command Authority to communicate with major headquarters in the event of a nuclear war. Everything else comes from that.



4. Have good communication networks (cable and satellite networks) fiberoptic and cable networks came in as or after tech level 8 was reached, not before


1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 20 years

that is reasonable


2. Created a IMPROVED communications network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one (satellite and cable).

improved communications satellites make the rest possible


3. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.

already in place


4. Has an airline and tourist industry.

also already in place


5. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)

not reasonable for reasons above


6. Develop personal computers, part of 10 year micro-electronics development (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)

see above, and the 10 years of applied research leads to that.. mainframes lead to PCs actually


7th condition has 2 options (must meet either one)

7a. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years

already in place


OR

7b. Level 4 social services for more than 10 years (high education = must).

keep the level 3 social services for 20 years or level 4 services for 10 years (either is acceptable)

All of which are centuries away except maybe limited weapons platforms.

I disagree.

We have the potential to build space platforms with missile pods and tungsten rods today.

By 2050 in RL we'll probably have railguns and even laser or particle guns in space. Remember technology keeps accelerating- 90% of everything we have or take for granted today has been invented in the past 30 years.

30 years ago, people thought Star Trek communicators were centuries away from becoming reality but it only took 30 years for these "communicators" to be born as cell phones. Likewise for medicine, holograms (not a holodeck though yet), a primitive tricorder, etc.

So who knows? In 30 years, by 2036, stuff we consider science fiction today in 2006 just might be real and commonplace by 2036 - 2046.

Also I feel that 1975 should be the earliest anyone reaches Tech 8, instead of 1970 (as we don't have the tech race of the Cold War- the build-up and one-upmanship between the USA and USSR... yet in E20).

Cross-posting this in the Economic thread as well.

I disagree, as we are 7 years ahead of schedule as it is, and we do have a substantial and even potential deadlier arms race is in effect. So 1970 is fine, as its exactly 10 years before tech level 8 was reached historically.

As tech level 7 was reached in 1948, and tech level 6 in 1938, this is pretty much consistant with the march of progress through the game.

I disagree, as we are 7 years ahead of schedule as it is, and we do have a substantial and even potential deadlier arms race is in effect. So 1970 is fine, as its exactly 10 years before tech level 8 was reached historically.

As tech level 7 was reached in 1948, and tech level 6 in 1938, this is pretty much consistant with the march of progress through the game.

I stand corrected- I didn't consider when the previous tech levels were reached. I withdraw my objection for tech level 8 being 1975 or later.

I have a serious question.

The first post of the military thread states that carriers cost 15 points, but that includes destroyers and supply ships.

I'd like to know how much a single carrier costs by itself with *NO* support vessels. Also I'd like to know the costs of individual supply ships (without costs of carriers or destroyers or whatever factored in).

I have a serious question.

The first post of the military thread states that carriers cost 15 points, but that includes destroyers and supply ships.

I'd like to know how much a single carrier costs by itself with *NO* support vessels. Also I'd like to know the costs of individual supply ships (without costs of carriers or destroyers or whatever factored in).

sigh.. it was easier to group them into carrier battlegroups, because no admiral is going to send one to sea without destroyers and a replenishment ship.

Figure the carrier is 13, the destroyers 1, the replenishment ship 1, plus you also have to pay for the pilots and aircraft seperately (carriers are expensive)

Nuclear carriers cost even more

sigh.. it was easier to group them into carrier battlegroups, because no admiral is going to send one to sea without destroyers and a replenishment ship.

Figure the carrier is 13, the destroyers 1, the replenishment ship 1, plus you also have to pay for the pilots and aircraft seperately (carriers are expensive)

Nuclear carriers cost even more

Ah, ok.

I was asking because I was wondering if customized carrier groups could be built. For instance, suppose I wanted to build a carrier by itself then add an escort of a couple missile cruisers instead of 5 destroyers or supply the carrier with 2 replenisher ships instead of just 1.

By the way, is the smallest nuclear-capable "unit" a frigate unit or a destroyer unit? You and LR were discussing that the other week. Any final decision reached on that yet?

Ah, ok.

I was asking because I was wondering if customized carrier groups could be built. For instance, suppose I wanted to build a carrier by itself then add an escort of a couple missile cruisers instead of 5 destroyers or supply the carrier with 2 replenisher ships instead of just 1.

By the way, is the smallest nuclear-capable "unit" a frigate unit or a destroyer unit? You and LR were discussing that the other week. Any final decision reached on that yet?

at tech level 7.5 you can start building nuclear powered destroyers.. however, they aren't very cost effective

What GB said!

At tech 7 only escort cruisers and above can be nuclear powered, at tech 7.5 destroyers can be as well. Though it seems to be a waste really, unless you are very short of oil and need the alternative fuel.

What GB said!

At tech 7 only escort cruisers and above can be nuclear powered, at tech 7.5 destroyers can be as well. Though it seems to be a waste really, unless you are very short of oil and need the alternative fuel.

Thanks, LR and GB.

China will need every last drop of oil for its economy, therefore if it does build a Navy the Navy will have to be nuclear powered given that China already has roughly 100 maintainence points worth of ground and air forces (worth 5 oil points needed) and China needs 2 to 3 oil points for commerce, which leaves China with only 1 - 2 oil points (from the Spratly Islands) and that will be needed to power 40 production centers.

So yes, China will be extremely strapped for oil, simply because of its huge economy (that still have lots more to go). Every oil point gained or purchased will have to go into the economy, not the Navy.

Thanks, LR and GB.

China will need every last drop of oil for its economy, therefore if it does build a Navy the Navy will have to be nuclear powered given that China already has roughly 100 maintainence points worth of ground and air forces (worth 5 oil points needed) and China needs 2 to 3 oil points for commerce, which leaves China with only 1 - 2 oil points (from the Spratly Islands) and that will be needed to power 40 production centers.

So yes, China will be extremely strapped for oil, simply because of its huge economy (that still have lots more to go). Every oil point gained or purchased will have to go into the economy, not the Navy.

If you need to power production centers, Australia has plenty of coal to spare...

Whens the MIG 25 come out?

Whens the MIG 25 come out?

1958, and Poland and the Ukraine jointly developed it.

new:

First generation ABM (tech level 7.5). Requires improved IRBM, nuclear capability for at least 15 years, and 72 points of research (no more then 12 points year). Considered missile research. Once developed, a unit of 10 missiles has a chance (1 in 4) of destroying a ballistic missile attack before it hits. However, this chance is reduced to 1 in 10 if MIRVs are used.

side effect is serious EMP effects suffered by the defending nation. Look up the Soviet Galosh system and the US Nike Zeus system for examples.

Second generation ABM (tech level 8). As above, but another 72 points of research (no more then 12 points a year). Can engage MIRVs with 1 in 4 chance of success in stopping each warhead. Same problems with EMP though.

Third Generation ABM is tech level 8.5... gets you the Patriot type system. Rules for that when appropriate.

Nuclear tests in upper atmosphere and space can be found by watching the movie "Rainbow Bombs" and "Trinity and Beyond" both available via Netflix, and looking up information on the internet.

Nuclear weapons in space will damage satellite systems, sometimes severely.

What about developing an anti-EMP microchip? saw it in a James Bond movie :p

What about developing an anti-EMP microchip? saw it in a James Bond movie :p

That is called "hardening" and is common practice for microchips in military specification hardware. Its expensive, doubles or triples or more the price of the chip, which is why a military spec computer costs 4 to 5 times as much as your desk top computer does. Critical civilian computer systems, like the computers involved with the NYSE, Federal Reserve, some insurance companies etc, also have hardened systems and keep hard copy records in storage facilities, many of which are stored deep underground.

The way to defeat that is to simply use a bigger bomb for a more powerful EMP. But it does limit the area affected substantially (hardening that is).

Incidently, EMP was not initially well understood. The US Johnston Island tests were the first time that a widespread area was affected. Before that, as the tests involved lower tech levels and much lower altitudes (a few thousand feet or ground bursts) the impact of EMP was thought to be restricted to some interference with radio for a few hours.

It was also discovered a day or so later that the radiation lasted more then just a few hours. Telstar I, the first US communications satellite, plus an American and British science satellite (one each) were actually knocked out when they passed through that area of the Van Allen Belt that was affected.

Nuclear tests in space were cancelled soon after that as concerns existed that a manned space flight would be affected.

Since I'm trying to come up with specific specifics for my military (how many of what where, purely for my own amusement) I came to the question of how many troops per unit are "combat" troops. I just split it into Combat (grunts, tank crews, etc.) and Logistical (maintenance, cooks, everything else) I'd imagine the Mechanized and Armored units would have smaller combat percentages, while Light Infantry, Mountain, and Marine units would have more.

For my purposes would 3,500 Combat, 1,500 Logistics be good for Mountain Brigades, 10,000 Combat, 10,000 Logistics for Mech. Infantry, and 7,500 combat, 12,500 Logistics for the other Mech Units (Armored, Flak, Artillery)?

When will the MP5 come out? Same with the Leopard 1?

MP5 and Leopard I entering service now,as would the Marder.

The US has the M60A1 and the M48A5 tanks, M113 APC and M16 is entering service.

Polish/Ukranians have the T55 and working on the T62, while Russians have the BTR60. Most likely the Poles and Ukrainians would use it as well, while the Russians would either buy American or buy Ukranian.

figure in a mechanized unit about 25 - 35 percent of troops in combat arms, rest support and combat support. Figure a corps is about 25% combat, rest support and combat support.

combat support are things like engineer battalions, MP battalions, signals units etc, while support units are truck and supply units etc.

Parthini']When will the MP5 come out? Same with the Leopard 1?

I figure, look up the units you want on Wikipedia (it should say when the first prototypes were built) then subtract 6 years from the RL date the prototypes were built in.

Suppose Tank A is built in 1970 in RL, and Tank B is built in 1973. Subtract 6 years from these...

Tank A in E20 = built in 1964
Tank B in E20 = built in 1967

W00t W00t!

:mp5:

Now all I need is the AUG and Glock and I'm set.

The US Army begins issuing body armor to its mechanized infantry in an experimental program.

OOC: GB, will you be doing the military exercises soon?

UPDATED CHINESE MILITARY (as of 1959):

20 Infantry Corps
10 Armored Corps (20 divisions)
10 Mechanized Flak Corps (20 divisions)
10 Mechanized Artillery Corps (20 divisions)
10 HQ units
24 units of Mirage III fighters
12 units of Kirin Strategic Bombers
36 Pilots (Elite)
6 Pilots (Average. Mainly as back-up)

Important note:

All units are now ELITE status with the exception of the 6 units of "average" pilots as China upgrades them to ELITE status (and maintainence) in 1959.

OOC: GB, will you be doing the military exercises soon?

tomorrow

tomorrow

thanks

UPDATED CHINESE MILITARY (as of 1959):

20 Infantry Corps
10 Armored Corps (20 divisions)
10 Mechanized Flak Corps (20 divisions)
10 Mechanized Artillery Corps (20 divisions)
10 HQ units
24 units of Mirage III fighters
12 units of Kirin Strategic Bombers
36 Pilots (Elite)
6 Pilots (Average. Mainly as back-up)

Important note:

All units are now ELITE status with the exception of the 6 units of "average" pilots as China upgrades them to ELITE status (and maintainence) in 1959.


at some point you will need to indicate where all of those units are, especially the air and air defense units, or I can

when does the Mig-27 come out? I'm guessing it's a while away, but I'm wondering when it comes out in this timeline

I hope you all realize that I get Israeli Defense Industries...

at some point you will need to indicate where all of those units are, especially the air and air defense units, or I can

What maps are we using for military deployments? Are we still using the World In Flames map?

I hope you all realize that I get Israeli Defense Industries...

I'm fine with having only Glock, Steyr and H&K.

A few quick answers...

Mig27, like the Mig23, is a tech level 7.5 aircraft, as are all variable geometry aircraft (swing wing)


Sharina, use any decent map of China, include a link when posting locations however so I know what map you are using. World in Flames map is good, just remember, no more the 4 corps in a hex (on the Asian Map) or no more then 10 divisions.

Actually Artisia, I will let you have the Uzi and Galil, but the Kfir, Merkova etc I am going to set aside for China (Kfir) and Russia (Merkova, as the Poles and Ukranians have the T62/72/80)

Although they will probably be called something else. However, once you get to tech level 8.5, you can have the Lavi fighter.

Korea and Japan, look up your post war militaries, both of you start producing tanks eventually (invariably called Type something or another). Japan also makes some fine escort vessels (especially their tech level 8.5 destroyers)

gat dang it! The Merkava is what I wanted! What about the Sabre and all the Israeli missiles and what not? At tech 9 or 10, what about the THEL?

gat dang it! The Merkava is what I wanted! What about the Sabre and all the Israeli missiles and what not? At tech 9 or 10, what about the THEL?

I need something for the countries that historically didn't have industries that do in this game, so IDF is elected.

Incidently, beginning tech level 7.5, maintenance for carrier groups just covers the carrier and the replenishment ship. The escorts cost seperately.

Incidently, beginning tech level 7.5, maintenance for carrier groups just covers the carrier and the replenishment ship. The escorts cost seperately

Noted, i'll update the front page.

A few quick answers...

Mig27, like the Mig23, is a tech level 7.5 aircraft, as are all variable geometry aircraft (swing wing)


Sharina, use any decent map of China, include a link when posting locations however so I know what map you are using. World in Flames map is good, just remember, no more the 4 corps in a hex (on the Asian Map) or no more then 10 divisions.

Actually Artisia, I will let you have the Uzi and Galil, but the Kfir, Merkova etc I am going to set aside for China (Kfir) and Russia (Merkova, as the Poles and Ukranians have the T62/72/80)

Although they will probably be called something else. However, once you get to tech level 8.5, you can have the Lavi fighter.

Korea and Japan, look up your post war militaries, both of you start producing tanks eventually (invariably called Type something or another). Japan also makes some fine escort vessels (especially their tech level 8.5 destroyers)

excellent, I know Japan makes T-90's or something like that now

This may seem like a stupid question, but can you train ship crews (to highly trained, elite, etc.?) If so, does it use the army training table?

This may seem like a stupid question, but can you train ship crews (to highly trained, elite, etc.?) If so, does it use the army training table?

Potentially, but for now using simple modifiers based on successful tradition. I will consider something that allows you to pay less maintenance in exchange for below average crews. Naval crews get a lot of practice doing their wartime jobs just by steaming around in peacetime, since in wartime a lot of what they do is steam around a lot. Sea battles and fighting is much more infrequent then you might think.

Poor Syrian navy, it's last RL moment to shine ended with the Roman Empire (they used Lebanese wood to build their boats) our independent peak ended with Phoenica.

Several new updates added, if you have a navy you'd better note the changes to frigates and destroyers which now cost more to maintain due to increased complexity.

New aircraft types and models listed as well.

GB: Any idea when the first of the (GR.1) Harriers will become available, i'd like a few for the Fleet Air Arm and RAF use when they're out.

Pakistan / Japan Wargames 1958-59

http://www.meatnpotatoes.com/nations/maps/pk-map-big.jpg

http://www.phonebookoftheworld.com/pakistan/mapofpakistan.jpg

Japanese forces
3 light infantry divisions, 4 parachute brigades, 4 C82 transport units, 1 Mirage III fighter unit

Pakistani forces
Simulated supply point Quetta
2 infantry corps (4 divisions), 1 Harut fighter unit

Week 1
The Japanese attempt to gain air superiority, and essentially eliminate the Pakistani air unit but also suffer sufficient losses where the Japanese air unit is eliminated as well.
Week 2
The Japanese are able to drop their paratroopers, but rugged terrain makes their drop zones obvious. The Pakistani infantry corps defending Quetta inflicts severe losses on the Japanese, essentially destroying all 4 airborne brigades, and that portion of the attack is viewed as a failure.
Meanwhile, the Japanese attack along the border with 3 light infantry divisions, and manage to outflank Pakistani corps defending the area and forcing it to pull back.
Week 3
The Pakistanis counterattack with both of their infantry corps, and the higher firepower of their conventional infantry versus the Japanese light infantry is telling. The Japanese are driven back and then forced to pull back across the border.

The second round of wargames is played out differently. The Japanese commander decides to assume he has helicopters instead of transport aircraft, and referees allow him to insert airborne brigades at various points just behind the forward Pakistani positions and amongst their artillery while the 3 light infantry divisions attack along the flanks and front. This shatters the first Pakistani corps and it is determined to be eliminated.

In the second week, a similar attack is made of Quetta and although Japanese losses are determined to be 2 light infantry divisions and 2 airborne brigades, the Pakistanis are again destroyed and the attack is viewed as a success.

GB: Any idea when the first of the (GR.1) Harriers will become available, i'd like a few for the Fleet Air Arm and RAF use when they're out.

1970s historically... it was a difficult achievement

Pakistan / Japan Wargames 1958-59

http://www.meatnpotatoes.com/nations/maps/pk-map-big.jpg

http://www.phonebookoftheworld.com/pakistan/mapofpakistan.jpg

Japanese forces
3 light infantry divisions, 4 parachute brigades, 4 C82 transport units, 1 Mirage III fighter unit

Pakistani forces
Simulated supply point Quetta
2 infantry corps (4 divisions), 1 Harut fighter unit

Week 1
The Japanese attempt to gain air superiority, and essentially eliminate the Pakistani air unit but also suffer sufficient losses where the Japanese air unit is eliminated as well.
Week 2
The Japanese are able to drop their paratroopers, but rugged terrain makes their drop zones obvious. The Pakistani infantry corps defending Quetta inflicts severe losses on the Japanese, essentially destroying all 4 airborne brigades, and that portion of the attack is viewed as a failure.
Meanwhile, the Japanese attack along the border with 3 light infantry divisions, and manage to outflank Pakistani corps defending the area and forcing it to pull back.
Week 3
The Pakistanis counterattack with both of their infantry corps, and the higher firepower of their conventional infantry versus the Japanese light infantry is telling. The Japanese are driven back and then forced to pull back across the border.

The second round of wargames is played out differently. The Japanese commander decides to assume he has helicopters instead of transport aircraft, and referees allow him to insert airborne brigades at various points just behind the forward Pakistani positions and amongst their artillery while the 3 light infantry divisions attack along the flanks and front. This shatters the first Pakistani corps and it is determined to be eliminated.

In the second week, a similar attack is made of Quetta and although Japanese losses are determined to be 2 light infantry divisions and 2 airborne brigades, the Pakistanis are again destroyed and the attack is viewed as a success.

The Japanese Defense Ministry views these exercises as a successs, and plans to construct more helicopters

The Japanese Defense Ministry views these exercises as a successs, and plans to construct more helicopters

incidently, landing accidents (during the airdrops) and aircraft accidents result in 100 Japanese and 30 Pakistani dead, and several hundred Japanese and Indians injured (in accidents). About 10 aircraft are lost on each side (accidents are common in this kind of exercise).

Japan is selling/donating 4 C82's and 2 Mirage III's to any nation interested

Japan is selling/donating 4 C82's and 2 Mirage III's to any nation interested

China will buy back the Mirage III's as it does not want any of its aircraft technologies falling into enemy hands.

for 3 points each?

Syria is interested in purchasing a unit if they are IIIE models.

for 3 points each?

Certainly.

Crossposted from my thread. If the people involved (France, Russia, China (if France says not to Mirages) and someone who makes decent ASW helicopters) could give permission that would be great.

Government Announces Military Expansion

The long deadlock between groups aiming for Syria's entry into the nuclear powers, and those who do not want the weapons, has seemingly been ended today. A plan calling for upgrades and expansion for all three major branches of the military has been announced, with the schedule as follows:

1959

Upgrades to current Army Units
Construction of Heavy Missile Cruiser (TBD) in France
Construction of two ASW frigates (both TBD) in France


1960

Replacement of 3 Mountain Brigades w/2 Infantry Divisions
Construction of 2 Destroyers
Replacement of current helicopter unit w/ ASW helicopter unit
An-12 Cub transport and pilot


1961

Foundation of Army Mobile Command (HQ unit)
Replacement of Do-337 with Mirage IV
Construction of AA Cruiser (France)
Mirage IIIE
Beriev Be-6


By early 1963 the larger, more capable and professional Syrian military will be fully integrated and ready to defend itself. While these reforms will be expensive, some equipment (the Do-337, helicopter unit) will be sold if possible. Donations to the Arab League will be limited, though with the exception of 1959, they will not be withheld

suggested rule
1. Aircraft reserves:
Aircraft that are phased out can be placed in desert storage. They do not cost any maintenance, but have to be reconditioned (half their original cost rounded up) if brought back into service. Must be stored in desert conditions. They can be stored for up to 10 years after being placed in reserve.

example 2 RB47 recon heavy bombers (stored 1959)

Takes into account mammoth outdoor storage facilities like Davis Monthan AFB in real life. In real life these aircraft are frequently removed from storage and sold to foreign buyers, used as spare parts, or missile targets etc.

Nations that do not have a desert storage facility can use an Allied nations.

2. National Air Reserve Fleet: In time of national emergency, airliners can be used to haul troops. Essentially 1 airline unit can be converted into 1 medium (national airline) or long range (international airline) transport unit. No commerce from that unit that year. The pilots can also be drafted into the Air Force as well (which means they can't fly commerce missions either).

suggested rule
1. Aircraft reserves:
Aircraft that are phased out can be placed in desert storage. They do not cost any maintenance, but have to be reconditioned (half their original cost rounded up) if brought back into service. Must be stored in desert conditions. They can be stored for up to 10 years after being placed in reserve.

example 2 RB47 recon heavy bombers (stored 1959)

Takes into account mammoth outdoor storage facilities like Davis Monthan AFB in real life. In real life these aircraft are frequently removed from storage and sold to foreign buyers, used as spare parts, or missile targets etc.

Nations that do not have a desert storage facility can use an Allied nations.

2. National Air Reserve Fleet: In time of national emergency, airliners can be used to haul troops. Essentially 1 airline unit can be converted into 1 medium (national airline) or long range (international airline) transport unit. No commerce from that unit that year. The pilots can also be drafted into the Air Force as well (which means they can't fly commerce missions either).

GB, I'm curious...

What gives with "desert storage"? I don't understand why or how deserts are necessary for storage?.

GB, I'm curious...

What gives with "desert storage"? I don't understand why or how deserts are necessary for storage?.

Rust is very rare in deserts... another real life example. Most airlines store their excess airliners at the Mojave Airport a mere 40 miles from my house.. roughly 100 - 200 always in storage, and at times more.

1. Aircraft reserves:
Aircraft that are phased out can be placed in desert storage. They do not cost any maintenance, but have to be reconditioned (half their original cost rounded up) if brought back into service. Must be stored in desert conditions. They can be stored for up to 10 years after being placed in reserve.

example 2 RB47 recon heavy bombers (stored 1959)

Takes into account mammoth outdoor storage facilities like Davis Monthan AFB in real life. In real life these aircraft are frequently removed from storage and sold to foreign buyers, used as spare parts, or missile targets etc.

Nations that do not have a desert storage facility can use an Allied nations.

2. National Air Reserve Fleet: In time of national emergency, airliners can be used to haul troops. Essentially 1 airline unit can be converted into 1 medium (national airline) or long range (international airline) transport unit. No commerce from that unit that year. The pilots can also be drafted into the Air Force as well (which means they can't fly commerce missions either).

Seems to be good to me, i'll add it to the front page. On a similar note Britian asks whether the USA could store its surplus aircraft for it in one of teh desert facilities. Britain having a distinct lack of deserts...

Failing that some of the Commonwealth nations will be asked.

Seems to be good to me, i'll add it to the front page. On a similar note Britian asks whether the USA could store its surplus aircraft for it in one of teh desert facilities. Britain having a distinct lack of deserts...

Failing that some of the Commonwealth nations will be asked.

ya know... I actually seem to have a surplus of desert on my hands these days. Probably enough to store planes for every nation on the planet in fact....

Seems to be good to me, i'll add it to the front page. On a similar note Britian asks whether the USA could store its surplus aircraft for it in one of teh desert facilities. Britain having a distinct lack of deserts...

Failing that some of the Commonwealth nations will be asked.

The US is willing to do that. A large storage facility is opened at the Yuma Proving Ground to serve all US armed forces, as well as the British and Canadians.

ooc
Australia and the FNS have plenty of deserts

The US is willing to do that. A large storage facility is opened at the Yuma Proving Ground to serve all US armed forces, as well as the British and Canadians.

ooc
Australia and the FNS have plenty of deserts

Deserts in South America? The only desert-like terrain I know of is west of the Andes mostly in Chile, and the desert isn't as big as the deserts in North America, China, Africa, or the Middle East.

Deserts in South America? The only desert-like terrain I know of is west of the Andes mostly in Chile, and the desert isn't as big as the deserts in North America, China, Africa, or the Middle East.

ooc
yep, Chile and Peru both have a rather large desert, parts of which see no precipatation for decades. (Nazca comes to mind)

ooc
yep, Chile and Peru both have a rather large desert, parts of which see no precipatation for decades. (Nazca comes to mind)

great, just great, and Japan has no desert whatsoever

Theres always the Gobi, or me, if you're desparate.

great, just great, and Japan has no desert whatsoever

But you still have a mutual defense treaty with the US, and the US government will be happy to store your older aircraft for you.

ooc
as that treaty hasn't been cancelled, the US still has a couple of Air Force bases in Japan as well, and a naval station at Yokahoma although no permanent combat forces are stationed in Japan, just some support troops (about 10,000)

the USS Scorpion, a nuclear attack submarine, disappears near the Azores while returning from deployment with the 6th Fleet. A massive search operation finds the scattered wreckage on the Mid Atlantic Abyssal Plain.

Investigation will last a couple of years, and it is determined that a torpedo explosion caused loss of depth control and eventual implosion.

ooc
randomn roll for nuclear submarine accident costs the USN a sub. Roll is made every year to determine if an accident occurs, severity, and who is unlucky. Cause listed above is the actual cause of the loss of this particular submarine in real life.

2 questions

1. How much would it realistically cost to build a military/research base on Okinawa?
2. Can we build nuclear fallout shelters, for how much, and what tould the effects be?

2 questions

1. How much would it realistically cost to build a military/research base on Okinawa?
2. Can we build nuclear fallout shelters, for how much, and what tould the effects be?

1. Nothing, as bases are factored into your military maintenance
2. Civil Defense provides fall out shelter space, as well as defense against biological and chemical warfare. 1 point for every 10 million people defended.

Korea and Japan, look up your post war militaries, both of you start producing tanks eventually (invariably called Type something or another). Japan also makes some fine escort vessels (especially their tech level 8.5 destroyers)

That's funny...I knew they had the Hyundai K1 (an Abrams derivative, but still cool). But I never knew they had home-brewed models.

And what are the exact rules on reserves?

Korean Armed Forces (To be Finished)

Imperial Korean Army Home Defense Force (Held in Reserve, Based all over the nation):

1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 mountain infantry brigade .25 points
1 HQ unit- 1pt (Seoul)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance

Vladivostok Guards Division (based in Vladivostok)-

1 infantry division .25 points

IKA Rapid Reaction Force (Active, based near Inchon and ready to be deployed at any time):
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 HQ Unit-1 pt
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25

Imperial Korean Air Force (Based at Sunan Air Base):

1 Avro Arrow unit- 1pt
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance


IKAF-Korean National Police Agency Foriegn Service Project (based in a classified location outside Seoul)

1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2


IKAF Missile Command (based in classified areas all over the North)-

4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2

IKAF Air Defense Command-

4 SAM/Flak Groups (1 in Vladivostok, 1 in Pusan, 1 in Seoul, 1 in Pyongyang)-1 pt

IKAF Home Defense Corps (Reserve)- Based near Iwon-

1 Dassault Mirage III unit-1 pt
1 average pilot
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25

Imperial Korean Navy Eastern Theater (based in Vladivostok):

1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Attack Submarine Groups- .5 point matenance
1 Coastal Patrol Unit-.25

IKN West Theater (based in Inchon)-

1 Attack Submarine Group- .5
1 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .25
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 22 Points (Estimated)

3 points for Civil Defense

So... you are giving the Merkava to the Chinese... even though they have their Type 58's and what not. What the hell do I get.

So... you are giving the Merkava to the Chinese... even though they have their Type 58's and what not. What the hell do I get.

no, Merkava goes to the Russians, the Chinese get their T59s, T69s, Type 82s etc

And what are the exact rules on reserves?


from the first page
you may have two reserve units for each regular unit without penalty during peacetime. In wartime or during times of national emergency you may call them up. This however can have economic penalties depending on how many troops are called up. If you exceed peacetime limits expect some economic ramifications, your industrial growth will decrease as a substantial portion of your male (and female) youth who provide the main industrial workforce will be spending too much time in the military and less in your factories. Exact results will be determined by a discussion between the military and economic moderators.

Reserve units also cost the same in maintenance as regular units but cannot be elite or handpicked units except for pilots and special forces units.

Reason for that is that because of the nature of pilots and special forces, the true warrior types tend to gravitate to those reserve units after leaving the regular full time service because they genuinely love what they do. Because of that, reserve pilots and reserve special forces units actually outperform routinely full time regular units.

Just checked my copy of Jane's Tanks and Combat Vehicles Recognition Guide for Japanese vehicles:

Japanese MBTs of the time include the type 61 and 74 which were reasonably good. Utilising the British 105mm L7 Royal Ordnance main gun, though the type 74 gave birth to the 120mm armed type 90.

APCs include the type 73 which carried 9 people and the SU 60 which carried 6 and had an inexhaustable list of variants for ambulance work, NBC detection and even mortar carriers and an AT version.

Self Propelled Guns include the 106mm type 60 and type 75 coming out in 1962 (E20 timeline). There will also be a range of 6x6 vehicles appearing in the mid to late 60's (E20 time) to fulfil light support and reconnaisance roles.

Many of the above still remain in operation with the Japanese reserves, they were never exported.

Just checked my copy of Jane's Tanks and Combat Vehicles Recognition Guide for Japanese vehicles:

Japanese MBTs of the time include the type 61 and 74 which were reasonably good. Utilising the British 105mm L7 Royal Ordnance main gun, though the type 74 gave birth to the 120mm armed type 90.

APCs include the type 73 which carried 9 people and the SU 60 which carried 6 and had an inexhaustable list of variants for ambulance work, NBC detection and even mortar carriers and an AT version.

Self Propelled Guns include the 106mm type 60 and type 75 coming out in 1962 (E20 timeline). There will also be a range of 6x6 vehicles appearing in the mid to late 60's (E20 time) to fulfil light support and reconnaisance roles.

Many of the above still remain in operation with the Japanese reserves, they were never exported.

So will this have any impact on my forces, like increased attack power or something, or is it just symbolic?

Repeating my call for a source of ASW choppers. Also, could someone rule on me buying a unit of An-12s from Russia? Either LR or GB, as Kordo left and Parth won't be back for a while.

If I don't get any offers for ASW helicopters then can I assume thier Russian (they sold me lots of arms not long ago, so I'd imagine they'd OK this.)

Repeating my call for a source of ASW choppers. Also, could someone rule on me buying a unit of An-12s from Russia? Either LR or GB, as Kordo left and Parth won't be back for a while.

If I don't get any offers for ASW helicopters then can I assume thier Russian (they sold me lots of arms not long ago, so I'd imagine they'd OK this.)

The USEA can supply both Ht-80 transports which are a direct equivelant to the An-12 and Ht-3 Helicopters which are are ASW Capable with the Ht-3S varient. (based off Mil-4PL)

man. I get no tanks?

The USEA can supply both Ht-80 transports which are a direct equivelant to the An-12 and Ht-3 Helicopters which are are ASW Capable with the Ht-3S varient. (based off Mil-4PL)
Syria will pay for these aircraft this year (budgeted for 1960, I'll just need to do a few minor edits)

man. I get no tanks?

you were planning to build the Sheridan remember?

So will this have any impact on my forces, like increased attack power or something, or is it just symbolic?

Mostly symbolic though if a nation which imports all its vehicles and such gets embargoed then there may be side effects. In combat superiority in weapons is decided by comparing tech levels with a bonus going to a higher tech nation which represents better equipment and modern tactics etc.

Mostly symbolic though if a nation which imports all its vehicles and such gets embargoed then there may be side effects. In combat superiority in weapons is decided by comparing tech levels with a bonus going to a higher tech nation which represents better equipment and modern tactics etc.

Hmm...

Even lower tech nations can win battles aganist enemies with better tech through two factors.

1. Outproduce the higher tech nation economically and industrially.

2. Smarter tactics than the higher technology nation. Out-think and out-manuever the higher technology nation is possible, as some nations become too complacent and believe their technology conquers all, including conquering despite poor strategy and tactics (*cough* mainstream NS *cough*).

By the way, I'll probably have my military deployments up this week. I gotta figure out where I need to place my units. I just might have too many to place on the World In Flames hex map. Haha.

Hmm...

Even lower tech nations can win battles aganist enemies with better tech through two factors.

1. Outproduce the higher tech nation economically and industrially.

2. Smarter tactics than the higher technology nation. Out-think and out-manuever the higher technology nation is possible, as some nations become too complacent and believe their technology conquers all, including conquering despite poor strategy and tactics (*cough* mainstream NS *cough*).

However, lower tech nations pay a much higher cost in blood when fighting a higher tech enemy. But if willing to fight a protracted war, they can win a political victory even if they lose on the battlefield.

The US Army embraces air assault and air mobility. 2 Airborne, 1 armored and 1 infantry division are converted into Air Assault Divisions. 2 divisions retain parachute training as well (the 82nd and 101st).

Plans are made for reequipping part of Military Airlift Command with C141 jet transports.

The US Army also forward deploys 2 armored divisions worth of equipment to Australia so that in case of emergency, the personnel can be airlifted to their equipment, saving weeks of travel time during war.