NationStates Jolt Archive

Of course I will send some men to help when that time comes (I would just have to delay a little war with Croatia I am planning...).

Kaduna, check your TGs.

are you sure you sent it to the right nation cos I got nothing.

Would it be possible for me to play as the HRE? I am a big fan of Medieval Total wat and history so could be a good RPer.

are you sure you sent it to the right nation cos I got nothing.

Yeah, I sent it to you after I posted :p

Ftang, you can if you want but as you know its divided and the various vassals are rebllious, that and i think Macabees and Jagada have just decided to split it between them. Oh and Moorington do you think you could play as the Kingdom of the Franks? we really need one.

I'm lost for time, we have 2 days for summer and 1 for winter, right? Also, what is the current season and year (or what is it whenever someone replies to this)?

WInter 1088. Tommorow is Summer 1089 then Summer 1089 then Winter 1089 and so on and so on....

I was gonna say somthing funny here but i didn't want to confuse anyone so just laugh anyway at the imaginary joke, or if you're in the North it goes Summer 1089 Winter 1089 Winter 1089

HAHAHA Spooty is SO funny!

HAHAHA Spooty is SO funny!

damn straight, and don't you forget it :P

If they will split it then I guess I will be Denmark if that is okay, if it causes trouble tell me which ones are still open

Denmark is fine. Ill add you and you need to make an internal affairs and contact thread like everyone else has...

Denmark is fine. Ill add you and you need to make an internal affairs and contact thread like everyone else has...


Oops ; I should get that up before I re-make my unification role play.

Shouldn't the Almohajids still be pretty strong? I recall the Granada beeing conquered IRL in the 15th century? In the 12th the Islam in Spain should be rather strong now, no? And for sure have more than just the last fortress left.

That aside what are the "pikemen" you are using? As far as I know it, first real pike formations in Europe were the Swiss ones in the 14th-15th century... perhaps you mean spearmen?

Im useing forces from Medieval Total War and when I play that game you are allowed to form pikemen in the early 12th century. Also we used a map from 1328 at fisrt and since i used that to fill in who had what then there is very little muslim control in spain however it wont be all peace and quiet i can assure you...

Almohajids

(OOC: Do you mean the Almohads, if so then you're slightly out, the founder of the Almohads was born around 1080, making him 9)

(OOC: Do you mean the Almohads, if so then you're slightly out, the founder of the Almohads was born around 1080, making him 9)

That just further proves my point! If the founder of the propably most glorious dynasties of the Spanish Islam is 9, is it really realistic to start from conquering their capital in the first gaming year?

Here is the thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10072202#post10072202

(OOC: this is an alternate history, if it is possible and fun then it's worth doing, anyway I think it'd be fun to have a world without the most powerful Spanish Islamic Empire)

WInter 1088. Tommorow is Summer 1089 then Summer 1089 then Winter 1089 and so on and so on....
Um, earlier in the thread you seemed to endorse my proposal to use fluid time, which is, I feel, more comfortable to rp in. As I said in defense of fluid time, not all of us can post every day, leaving odd gaps inthe threads. Just let us work out our own time scheme on a thread by thread basis, and everyone will be content.:)

I am useing fluid time for wars and anything that realy needs it but we will need a date system...

Please check my questions on the previous page. :)

I already answered it but here is what I said.
Im useing forces from Medieval Total War and when I play that game you are allowed to form pikemen in the early 12th century. Also we used a map from 1328 at fisrt and since i used that to fill in who had what then there is very little muslim control in spain however it wont be all peace and quiet i can assure you...

Oh? So we are doing it like in some game, instead of like in the real world? Sorry for the inconvenience them... I just had misunderstood the whole idea of this RP.

i'm afraid I have to agree with Mad, Medieval is a great game and the inspiration for this RP but try to keep it real, you say that you are allowed to form Pikemen in the early 12th century, being as it isn't the 12th century then you may have a small problem.

3rded! I believe most of us felt this rp was about the Middle Ages, not a video game some of us haven't even played. I think since we're already rping historically, so let's keep it that way...

Tis cool. Ill edit my posts.

Ya the entire idea that we are not basing this off reality really kills it for me... in 1087, the Islamic Forces were extremely real in Europe. Sicily owned by the Calif of Egypt... Spain under extreme Muslim influence... Greece and the Balkans under threat of invasion. But here it seems as if the Islamic forces are non-existant, really killing the entire point of a medieval RP. It now makes Europe a care free world of happiness and powerful kings. I mean Spain was not taken for another 400 years, after several failed attempts at reconquest, a tens of thousands of deaths. Sicily, along with Southern Italy was constantly assaulted (Sicily was not taken back for over 100 years), the Byzantine Empire, while still strong enough to function, was under constant Seljuk attack... it just seems we're altering this RP so there is no real threat of anything going wrong and to increase our own power. In all reality, Spain is split down the middle, Granada being the last bastion of Muslim strength is very... odd. I dont understand why we cannot simply alter the map to match 1087, instead of fast forwarding 300 years, and calling it 1087. Im not so sure I want to RP in some sort of twisted alternate reality, I signed up for a 1087 RP, meaning 1087 map, 1087 weapons, religions, and ideas. Changing everything just... eh, kills the fun for me.

The one problem is that I dont have a map to base it off of. I can not find a map from 1087 or that time period and therefore do not know exactly who owns what. Trust me I want reality as much as the next person and I am agreeable but I dont know exactly who owns what and all the nations that were around. Now if you want to edit the map to make it how it should be, seeing as you seem to know a lot about it then please do but if noone wants to edit it or if noone can get me a map from the time period then we will have to stick with this. now if you want i will change the time to 1328, the time from which the map was and then we can go from there but I dont believe that that is the solution. So Kroando, please edit the map in Paint or Photoshop to what the world looks llike at the time.

Well, it seems like France hasn't been claimed yet, so if it's OK, I'd like to be King Philip the First - I can't read all the numbers, sorry! Basically the unclaimed areas of France less Normandy.

Anyone who wants to play as a large feudal lord inside France (it'd have to be someone with a good knowledge of how the Middle Ages works), I'd love to have them on board if I got accepted. I'm looking at you here, Madnestan...

Pilanchez, here's a link to a map from Perry-Castaneda (it was posted before, you might have missed it.) It doesn't have duchies on it or anything, but that can be the responsibility of others...
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_mediterranean_1097.jpg
I'm working on a better map as I speak - will upload it asap.

I posted it too.

Listen we can use whatever map you want Phil...if you cant alter it to 1087 just say so and I am certain one of us would be happy too.

It's bloody hard to find simple line maps for ANYTHING - they're all either too small, or don't cover the whole area, or aren't line maps - bloody GIF-type formats! This is the best potential I've found so far - tain't a great projection, but it does cover the whole area. If anyone gives me a blank map for the whole area, I'd be willing to do the map... But now, I' heading to bed, it's quarter past one...

EDIT: Forgot link to the map I plan to base it on, barring finding a better line-one (it polishes up to a line with only a bit of work...)
http://www.ingenius-berlin.de/jeg/web/downloads/karte_eu.jpg

Thats the closest one ive seen.

And regarding the Holy Roman Empire. I suggest we allow people to claim certain kingdoms and principalities inside it, that way, we would have a very accurate representation of how the empire works. One of the kings or princes would, in addition to running a certain province, be the Emporer, and attempt to rule the Empire. By allowing people to claim the countries within the Empire, we have a more accurate idea of how it was run... many countries trying to act as one, not one unified country. This map is from 1200, but the kingdoms inside the Empire hardly changed between 1000 and 1200, so it should'nt make much of a difference.

http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/Holy_roman_Empire_Map1.jpg

Thats the closest one ive seen.

And regarding the Holy Roman Empire. I suggest we allow people to claim certain kingdoms and principalities inside it, that way, we would have a very accurate representation of how the empire works. One of the kings or princes would, in addition to running a certain province, be the Emporer, and attempt to rule the Empire. By allowing people to claim the countries within the Empire, we have a more accurate idea of how it was run... many countries trying to act as one, not one unified country. This map is from 1200, but the kingdoms inside the Empire hardly changed between 1000 and 1200, so it should'nt make much of a difference.

http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/Holy_roman_Empire_Map1.jpg

I agree here, but I think perhaps you could even extend it further - if people want, allow them to play as Normandy or Toulouse or Anjou or whatever. What do people think? It'd represent mediaeval Europe well - the disunity of kingdoms was astounding then.
Found a couple more maps, but that's a story for tomorrow...

EDIT: Madnestan, Gascony is a vassal of France, not England. And it isn't the same as Aquitaine. Sorry, I'm a pedant with a love of mediaeval history...

Thanks for the input guys. Kalmykhia you are accepted and I presume you will RP well. Also i like the Idea for the HRE. In reference to claiming duchies and suh in other kingdoms we already have two persons who has done so, the duchy of malta and also the duchy of gascony. And please if anyone can edit the map then I would be pleased to use it!

Whoa, whoa. No way the Papal States is apart of the Holy Roman Empire. Tis is Popeland, quit trying to take it away. Though it would make more since if it was and then I just pwned the other principailities.

Though one problem, I belive Phil you already authorized I and Mac's plans to divide the Empire. So long as it is done realistically and with good RPing.

Have you changed your mind or can we still do that?

It would be far more realistic to allow people to RP the many kingdoms, rather than just splitting it in two. If you want to split it, then split it... just with some realistic opposition.

You can still do that but you will have to fight the people who are claiming the kingdoms...all in all it makes for more fun and good rping no matter the outcome...

I see. Though what is...for example. I decide to attack Tuscony? No body claims or controls it. Or if me and Mac attack the HRE before anybody claims its dutchies and provinces?

If you attack a province before it is claimed, id assume one of us would RP the resistance. And to attack the entire HRE, would be better to RP one Princedom at a time, with the others sending support.

Madnestan, Gascony is a vassal of France, not England. And it isn't the same as Aquitaine. Sorry, I'm a pedant with a love of mediaeval history...

I am aware of that now, and have no idea from where I possibly might have got the idea of it beeing an English vassal. I feel both stupid and ashamed, as I'm acting like I knew something about the period... :(

And yes, I know Gascony and Aquitane aren't exactly the same thing but in the map at the first page everything that is Aquitane was given to Gascony, so I have IC:ly spoken like they were one. Clever psychology, you see, to avoid the people beeing split to Real Gasconyans and Other Aquitanians ;)


But anyways, for game terms, I don't think this pathetic failure of mine with the vassal issue has to be a bad thing. A pretty strong dukedom in France, beeing a ally of England can be an interresting factor in the future. Some sort of a Early Hundred Years War, perhaps? Or even French civil war?

I will of course change the whole thing if you want me to, as you have right to ask that beeing the one who would suffer from this.



My sincere apologies. Should have done better history checkout before posting, and not going to let this sort of a crap happen again.

id be interested in taking taking saxony as a HRE princepality/dukedom

since you have no experience in rping i want to have a general consensus from the members on whether or not to allow this, because we have had some issues with new RPers...

looking at some of the things newbies have done id consider that reasonable, although i promise to behave myself

I abstain, because personally I have an interest in the region and it being non-played would be in my best interest, though I do want other to have fun.

I am aware of that now, and have no idea from where I possibly might have got the idea of it beeing an English vassal. I feel both stupid and ashamed, as I'm acting like I knew something about the period... :(

And yes, I know Gascony and Aquitane aren't exactly the same thing but in the map at the first page everything that is Aquitane was given to Gascony, so I have IC:ly spoken like they were one. Clever psychology, you see, to avoid the people beeing split to Real Gasconyans and Other Aquitanians ;)


But anyways, for game terms, I don't think this pathetic failure of mine with the vassal issue has to be a bad thing. A pretty strong dukedom in France, beeing a ally of England can be an interresting factor in the future. Some sort of a Early Hundred Years War, perhaps? Or even French civil war?

I will of course change the whole thing if you want me to, as you have right to ask that beeing the one who would suffer from this.



My sincere apologies. Should have done better history checkout before posting, and not going to let this sort of a crap happen again.
Heh, we all make mistakes. I don't know quite a bit about this period. Still, it is a quite interesting idea, and in this case, whether you know history or not you are in no way doomed to repeat it- you can chart your own course, within reason.

Basically what I'm trying to say is you should become my vassal
;) .

Incentive: I've got Longbowmen! You know you want 'em!

As for new players, we might as well allow them to join and see how they do. Since there're many dukedoms in the HRE, even if they do it badly it shouldn't make a huge difference. Also, post count is often not a good determinator- I mean, look at the old HRE, he had a respectable post count but was a terrible RPer.

Or mabey he is the old HRE and made a new account? Anywho, we need people to take on the Role Playing of the German Principalities and Kingdoms, or else the Pope and Prussians are simply going to claim it all...

I have a large blank map of Europe... I suppose I could take the info from our previous maps and fill it in. Only problem. Very little of North Africa and the Mideast is shown.

Alright we will let him have saxony.

Could you post it?

Not yet filled in.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9229/northamerica1cn9ku.png

Do you think you could get one of the wikipedia ones. they are real good and show N Africa and M East.

Ya the entire idea that we are not basing this off reality really kills it for me... in 1087, the Islamic Forces were extremely real in Europe. Sicily owned by the Calif of Egypt... Spain under extreme Muslim influence... Greece and the Balkans under threat of invasion. But here it seems as if the Islamic forces are non-existant, really killing the entire point of a medieval RP. It now makes Europe a care free world of happiness and powerful kings. I mean Spain was not taken for another 400 years, after several failed attempts at reconquest, a tens of thousands of deaths. Sicily, along with Southern Italy was constantly assaulted (Sicily was not taken back for over 100 years), the Byzantine Empire, while still strong enough to function, was under constant Seljuk attack... it just seems we're altering this RP so there is no real threat of anything going wrong and to increase our own power. In all reality, Spain is split down the middle, Granada being the last bastion of Muslim strength is very... odd. I dont understand why we cannot simply alter the map to match 1087, instead of fast forwarding 300 years, and calling it 1087. Im not so sure I want to RP in some sort of twisted alternate reality, I signed up for a 1087 RP, meaning 1087 map, 1087 weapons, religions, and ideas. Changing everything just... eh, kills the fun for me.You make a good point on most of it except Sicily was acutally conquered by Normans under Roger I in the early 1070's.

@Phil... I geuss I could try.
@Scan... The date is argued upon, I have seen many sources say the late 70's, I have seen others say the early 90's. Either way, Muslim influence over Sicily was still quite strong... and Spain, well Spain was dominated by the Moroccans save a few Christian Kingdoms.

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/granada1.htm

Perhaps one would enjoy a more accurate map?

Europe (http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/europe/eu1200large.GIF)

Oh, and by the way, would it be possible to take Kievan Rus off your hands?

Kiev already has a player.

And the map seems to be of 1200, quite a few differences between 1100 and 1200.

Kroando I believe that you are thinking of the few remaining stronghold, basically scattered small forts and villages by then, the last of which was elminated in 1091. As well that utterly finished the conquest of Sicily. For the thread os Moslem assualt was destroyed by the 12th century due the growth and establishment of the Sicilian fleet was at one time the strongest in the entire Medditeran.

Perhaps one would enjoy a more accurate map?

Europe (http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/europe/eu1200large.GIF)

Oh, and by the way, would it be possible to take Kievan Rus off your hands?
there's no Venice on that map!:(

i started a saxony news thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10074180#post10074180

Kiev already has a player.

Then I shall claim the County of Flanders.

And the map seems to be of 1200, quite a few differences between 1100 and 1200.

Indeed it is. However, the other alternative map I found would be impossible to edit.

there's no Venice on that map!

Well, Northern Italy was considered as a Dominion of the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and Early Renaissance.

The threat of Muslim invasion to Europe or Sicily ended in the 11th century? By no means was the threat of Muslim invasion to Europe ended, as the Seljuk's had yet to take Greece, or the Balkans, which they would. Their invasion would frighten the entirety of Europe. Spain also, 3/4 of Spain dominated by the Moroccans. Their presence was very powerful up until 1200, when the Muslim Power declined. The true end of the threat of Muslim invasion to Europe did not come until the 1600's, as the Ottoman Empire peaked and the Austrian Empire strengthened. In the 1100's, European General's constantly planned defences against a full scale Islamic Invasion of Europe.

And the forts in Sicily, that would be eliminated by 91', have yet to be eliminated unless you destroy them. The threat of invasion was always real, as the only true thing preventing it, besides the Byzantine Empire, was internal conflicts. After the begining, the rulers of the several Emerates and Sultanates began fighting, and no coordinated attack could be made... now if in this alternate reality they didn't fight each other... Europe is in trouble.

One of the chief reasons for the strength of the Sicilian Fleet was Venician investment in them. The Venicians had the money, and despised the Islamic dominance of the seas. Southern Italy is a very agricultural place, not rich nor as powerful Northern Italy. If the Venician's/Flourintinians dont start paying you, your fleets growth is stunted. And im not sure Sicily ever had THE fleet... the Calif of Egypt held a powerful navy, as did the turks. And in a straight out fight, the Byzantines had one secret not matched by any, Greek Fire. The Byzantine Fleet's, though numerically disadvantaged, held weapons great enough to defeat enemies 10 times their size.

Now if you're saying Muslim threat to an invasion of Sicily was gone... well, lessened, not completely gone. Sicily had no key resource the Moroccans needed, nor the Egyptians. The Egyptians looked South and East, the Moroccans to Spain. Nobody left to mess around with Italy.

EDIT: The city of Venice and the immidiet surrounding land is what should be colored in for Venice. There was a Italio-Germanic Kingdom included in the HRE surrounding the Republic.

Kro is right.
Claiming that by 1100 the Muslim threat to Europe was gone is just absurd.

Sorry about the confusion i was only refering to Sicily really. As well about Spain the holding of the Christains did not really start to overwhelm the Muslims into the 13th century and even then it took them another 200 and some years to finish the reconquest.

true that, at that point the muslims of spain were disunified, but held 3/5 of iberia. the spanish cant attack grenada if they have just taken toledo (capital of central spain) and that was 1085.

Found decent map of Europe finally, also take note that several territories that are shown though listed as indepdent of one another they are part of another kingdom, dukedom, etc:
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm#%20here

I am aware of that now, and have no idea from where I possibly might have got the idea of it beeing an English vassal. I feel both stupid and ashamed, as I'm acting like I knew something about the period... :(

And yes, I know Gascony and Aquitane aren't exactly the same thing but in the map at the first page everything that is Aquitane was given to Gascony, so I have IC:ly spoken like they were one. Clever psychology, you see, to avoid the people beeing split to Real Gasconyans and Other Aquitanians ;)

But anyways, for game terms, I don't think this pathetic failure of mine with the vassal issue has to be a bad thing. A pretty strong dukedom in France, beeing a ally of England can be an interresting factor in the future. Some sort of a Early Hundred Years War, perhaps? Or even French civil war?

I will of course change the whole thing if you want me to, as you have right to ask that beeing the one who would suffer from this.

My sincere apologies. Should have done better history checkout before posting, and not going to let this sort of a crap happen again.

Well, what I'm going to do is ask you to swear homage to me, what you do afterwards is up to you... You organising some sort of (marriage?) alliance with England would be perfectly all right... So you're RPing as the Duke of Gascony and Aquitaine, correct? Or are you just taking one of the duchies?
EDIT: I know exactly where you got the vassal idea from - Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine in 1152, so THEN it became a vassal. An easy mstake to make, what with the slight confusion over time period.

Lachenburg, Flanders is a duchy of France. So, you'd be under my nominal control - you know the usual, swearing fealty, etc... I think I'm going to end up as the real French kings - with a MAJOR struggle for power... Fun!

I would like to suggest a change to the map, you have Wales as a territory of England, it is not, it is currently in chaos, more updates as I continue to research locationsthis is going to take a long time

alright I did some wiki research on Granada, in 1013 Granada became an independant kingdom, so Phillis attack would be on Granada not upon any Kallif or Moor or whatever the hell you want to call them.

OK, here's a map. It's based on what SEEM to be historically accurate sources - where there was dispute, I have fudged it. I've divided Russia and France up into their principalities, and I will do the same for the HRE when I get a chance to - later today.
I'd say the main problem is for Mac, who's now coloured grey - the Duchy of Pomerania is between him and the Roman Empire - that shouldn't be too bad, just a little longer before you can get your pagan hands on them!
I'm waiting for Madnestan to get back to me on what EXACTLY he controls. For the moment, I've marked only Gascony brown. Aquitaine is the huge province above it, that stretches side to side across France.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5200/basiceuropemap24uk.gif

EDIT: Ooops, guess I didn't colour it brown. Well, Gascony is the province right above the orange of Navarre and Aragon, on the left side of France, and Aquitaine is right above it.

Uhh... This (http://www.livebordeaux.com/images/maps/aquitaine-france.gif) is what I have always thought to be Aquitane, and that is what was given to me in the first page. I have claimed my dukedom to stretch to Toulouse in the East in and La Rochelle in the North in my news thread though. Is this ok?

I own the Northern half of the Crimea.

I'm assuming I'm pink and that the Prussians or whatever are greyish.

How, may I ask, did a bunch of random tribesmen, take control of huge tracks of land along the Baltic? If anything, at this time Estonia was either disunited or part of Denmark.

Well, Northern Italy was considered as a Dominion of the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages and Early Renaissance.

VENICE:
Previously a dependency of the Byzantine Empire, Venice had established its independence of any eastern or western emperor as early as the ninth century. In the High Middle Ages, Venice became extremely wealthy through its control of trade to the Levant, and began to expand into the Adriatic Sea and beyond. The Venetian fleet was crucial to the sack of Constantinople by crusaders in the Fourth Crusade in 1204. As a result of the partition of the Byzantine Empire which followed, Venice gained a great deal of territory in the Aegean Sea, including the islands of Crete and Euboea. Later, in 1489, the island of Cyprus, previously a crusader state, was annexed to Venice.

FLORENCE:
Reviving from the 10th century and governed from 1115 by an autonomous commune,

So most of the states of N. Italy either were independent or exercised de facto independence from the HRE.

I'd like to apply myself to be a sort of secondary Realism Mod, with Phillis permission.

Sure Spooty. The more help and oppinions the better. Also, check your TG's.

@Madnestan: That's modern Aquitaine - the French duchy was much bigger. But the area you've claimed is basically the duchy of Gascony - a little larger, and I will update the map to fit.

@Kaduna: According to the map I have (the one from Perry-Castaneda that Skibereen posted), that's the lands of the Patzinaks - wild land, unoccupied by any sort of country, and not part of the Principality of Kiev (which is what I based your kingdom on). Just roving tribes I believe.

@Parthini: Yeah, you're the pinky kinda colour. The area Mac has is actually the area occupied by the Prussians and a wodge of other small tribes - it's not under anyone's control really. He's going to unite them into a pagan empire type thing.

So, the big nations we're missing are the Seljuk/Abbasid Caliphate, the Almoravid Caliphate, and the Roman Empire. My sister is stealing the PC, grrr, so I can't upload a new map yet. It will come later.

We have a Byzantine Empire. And yes we need some people to play thos nations.

hey, i would like to be Kingdom of Poland if thats alright

but Wiki told me that it was occupied by Kievan Rus in the 10th and 11th centuries, I trust Wiki, it's never lied to me before, even when it told me that the French were a group of Cheese eating surrender monkeys :P

hey, i would like to be Kingdom of Poland if thats alright

@ Phillanchez: dude so far at least four people have applied to be Poland and all of them have been ignored by you, please for the love of god let me have a neighbour!!!!

?! How is it i always seem to miss Poland... Anyway he can have Poland.

Oh and instead of granada being the Kingdom being taken in my Reconquest thread it will be Saragossa.

Saragossa, or Zaragoza, was at this time a part of the kingdom of Navarre (as is my understanding)

OCC: Since no one has said anything pertaining to my claim, I will assume it's valid and begin RPing Flanders.

So most of the states of N. Italy either were independent or exercised de facto independence from the HRE.

You named only two states, which do not comprise of the majority of Northern Italy.

@ Phillanchez: dude so far at least four people have applied to be Poland and all of them have been ignored by you, please for the love of god let me have a neighbour!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/First.Crusade.Map.jpg

this is a good map of the time around 1087's is for 1097's but not a big difference and Philanchez i wasnt sure who you said could be Poland i think you said me but not sure

As of 1096, Suragossa is split. 3/4 dominated by the Islamic Moroccans, 1/4 by Castille. Navarre doesn't start becoming a power for another 50 years, when Moroccan power slid downhill, and the Spanish Kingdoms simply ravaged Northern and Central Spain.

I have a suggestion regarding the index by which we organize the threads. We have an index for each nation, how bout we add more sections to the index? Such as war. I know that there are two 'Wars' going on. The first being the one on Suragossa, the second being my raid on a Danish City. By adding a section for these threads, everything becomes more organized.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458681

So, which lands have yet to be claimed by a player?

. . .

Just wondering . . .

You could take one of the Turkish...

Or France.

France is taken by Kalmykhia.

France is taken by Kalmykhia.

My brain must not be working today.

Take the Sultanate of Roum.

@Champren- I approved you, also i believe we will use that map as the base. Thanks!

@Kroando- I will do that.

@Lachenburg- I thought I approved you...

@Kaduna: All of the sources I can find except Wiki say that the north of Crimea isn't part of Russia. Please note that I've only marked the principality of Kiev as yours on the map - I think you're nomninal overking of all the Russian provinces though...

By Roman Empire I meant Holy Roman Empire (not yet so called, I believe)...

@Lachenburg: As King of France I am your nominal overlord. This means I am theoretically in charge of you, but I have very little authority...

In the mid 10th century eastern Crimea was conqured by Sviatoslav I of Kiev and became part of Kievan Russian Tmutarakan. In 988 Vladimir I of Kiev also captured the Byzantine town of Chersones and later converted to Christianity there.

I Knew i'd seen this somewhere, and the page it's on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

Crimea is mine

*does funky happy dance*

By the late 980's it was largely in the possession of the Kievan Rus and the Russian Principality of Tumutarakan before falling to the Kipchaks c. 1100.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/europe_mediterranean_1097.jpg

These would seem to go against that... The perils of relying on Wikipedia. It seems like you had it, and then lost it. I don't particularly mind, to be honest - I'm just going by what historical I can find. (Don't mind it if I seem to be shooting you down all the time - I'm just a big history nerd and I feel like expanding my knowledge.) Also, like I said, the only territory I marked on the map is Kievan Rus' itself - you are nominal overlord of the places surrounding it, including Novgorod. Whether they'll pay any attention to you is another thing...

Right, new maps are now available. The first map is the map showing everyone what's been taken, and all the principalities in France, the Roman Empire, and Russia. I've drawn the French and German borders in heavy lines, to distinguish these from the principalities. New players added: Kalmykhia as France in brown, Lachenburg as Flanders in orangey-brown, Champren as Poland in light blue-green. Should I mark in Kaduna as nominal overlord of all of Russia, like I am of France?
http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/7674/basiceuropemap26nu.gif

The second map shoes what principalities and kingdoms are available. The key is as follows:
1. Kingdom of Wales
2. Almoravid Caliphate
3. Banu Sulaym
4. Abbasid Caliphate
5. Kingdom of Croatia
7. Kingdom of Zaragoza
8. Kingdom of Valencia

F1. County of Brittany
F2. County of Anjou
F3. County of Aquitaine
F4. County of Castres
F5. County of Barcelona
F6. County of Maçon
F7. County of Burgundy
F8. Counties of Blois-Champagne

R1. Domain of Pisa
R2. County of Tuscany
R3. Duchy of Spoleto
R4. County of Provence
R5. Kingdom of Burgundy
R6. County of Lombardy
R7. March of Verona
R8. Duchy of Swabia
R9. Duchy of Lotharingia
R10. Mark of Carinthia
R11. Duchy of Bohemia
R12. Duchy of Franconia (seat of the King of Germany)
R13. Duchy of Bavaria
R14. Duchy of Saxony
R15. Duchy of Frisia
R16. Mark of Brandenburg
R17. Duchy of Pomerania

S1. Principality of Polotsk
S2. Principality of Perejaslawl
S3. Principality of Smolensk
S4. Principality of Chernigov
S5. Principality of Rostov-Suzdal
S6. Principality of Galicia

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/2961/basiceuropemap37fg.gif

These would seem to go against that... The perils of relying on Wikipedia. It seems like you had it, and then lost it. I don't particularly mind, to be honest - I'm just going by what historical I can find. (Don't mind it if I seem to be shooting you down all the time - I'm just a big history nerd and I feel like expanding my knowledge.) Also, like I said, the only territory I marked on the map is Kievan Rus' itself - you are nominal overlord of the places surrounding it, including Novgorod. Whether they'll pay any attention to you is another thing...

thats cool man, i'm doing the same, always expanding my knowledge, Novgorod seperated from me and we have a mutual understanding, though we also have a quiet Rivalry.

This point was raised in the Mameluck thread by Kroando, I suggest that we expand the focus of this RP to include other continents, such as the Moslems may very well feel the need to cross the Sahara and the Russians may travel so far East they hit Japan, China and (possibly) Alaska, just a proposal but i think it adds to the realism factor.

thats cool man, i'm doing the same, always expanding my knowledge, Novgorod seperated from me and we have a mutual understanding, though we also have a quiet Rivalry.

This point was raised in the Mameluck thread by Kroando, I suggest that we expand the focus of this RP to include other continents, such as the Moslems may very well feel the need to cross the Sahara and the Russians may travel so far East they hit Japan, China and (possibly) Alaska, just a proposal but i think it adds to the realism factor.

That sounds fine with me, for anyone who wants to do it - mainly only Moslem and Russian nations, although there's not very much off that way for so far. I think it might be an idea to hold off on that for a while though, until things have settled down a bit, we've had a few wars, etc...

So, shall I mark you in as King of Russia? Nominal, of course...That seems to be my new favourite word, I'm using it so much...

i've claimed the duchy of saxony and started a thread.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10074180

So, shall I mark you in as King of Russia? Nominal, of course...That seems to be my new favourite word, I'm using it so much...

mark me in? I am marked in, aren't I?

Byzantine thread is up: Behind Those Impregnable Walls... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458753)

After some consulting with Ski, and a little research, we have determined that the Irish Counties of Waterford, Dublin and Wexford are under the control of Norse Nobles. These counties are not ruled by the Frozen Throne (common name of Norway), and have recieved Semi-Autonomy. They serve as the Christian Refuge for those fleeing Norway, but are still however, considered in union with the Frozen Throne, as is the Kingdom of the North. (Rebel Thane of Alta was granted kingship of a small portion of Northern Norway, and Semi-Autonomy, but like the Irish-Norse Confederacy, are still in loose Union to Rachejk)

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/3010/dk19205xm.gif

The red colored portions of Ireland should be shaded in a different color than the rest of the island.

Flemish News-thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10076949#post10076949)

hey Philli dude, I'm a Principality not a Kingdom.

Ah, sorry. I thought thats what I typed...

Attention:The Gupta Dynasty, Ravea, Kaduna, Cantelmium, Wolfenbach

Ok, things are starting to get a little messy in Antolia, and we need to get this figured out. Basically we got a huge war brewing.

In the Knights of St. John thread as well as the Duchy of Malta thread we have a force of Malteses and Rhodians massing to strike the Seljuk Turks. (Is Sicily a part of this force as well?) They've ask for Byzantine help in attacking the Turks.

In the Mameluke Empire thread we have the Mameluke Empire declaring a Jihad to take Byzantine lands in Anatolia. I (Tunisia) have recently joined this Jihad. Kiev is sending forces to aid the Byzantine Empire.

So basically we have on one side:
Muslim Nations
-The Mameluke Empire
-The Emirate of Tunisia
-The Seljuk Turks (no one controls them, but I consider them a part of the war.)

and on the other side:
Christian Nations
-The Duchy of Malta
-The Knights of St. John (Rhodes)
-The Byzantine Empire
-The Principality of Kiev

There's no doubt that these to forces are going to meet. We need to discuss what will happen when they meet, and if there is a war, how the war will play out so we can make a good war RP.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm not too farmiliar with the terrain and general area of Antolia, but I can become farmiliar.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm not too farmiliar with the terrain and general area of Antolia, but I can become farmiliar.

It's suppose to be Anatolia, my mistake. Anyway, I think its mostly desert and mountains, not sure though.

First, we need to figure out whether we will have a war, will our forces even meet, and will they fight each other. We're pretty sure to have at least a Jihad and Byzantine/Kiev war and a Rhodes/Malta/Byzantine(?) and Seljuk Turk war. What we need to figure out is if these two wars will combine into one. I'd think so since they're both happening around the same time in the same palce.

If we do combine into one, we just have to figure out where we want to be at the end of the war, who will gain what, who will lose what, that stuff. Then get a crude but flexible outline of the war (major engagements, sieges, whos at what battles and who wins them, ect.), then fill it up with RPing.

Edit: If you have comments or ideas telegram them to everyone else instead of posting them here so the RP isn't ruined for others.

Are you OCD? You must be OCD tajidstan because that is an insane amount of obsessing over and planning for a war...although I admit it is a big war but generally for the World Wars Ive rped we just go with the flow and eventually it gets really interesting...

After some consulting with Ski, and a little research, we have determined that the Irish Counties of Waterford, Dublin and Wexford are under the control of Norse Nobles. These counties are not ruled by the Frozen Throne (common name of Norway), and have recieved Semi-Autonomy. They serve as the Christian Refuge for those fleeing Norway, but are still however, considered in union with the Frozen Throne, as is the Kingdom of the North. (Rebel Thane of Alta was granted kingship of a small portion of Northern Norway, and Semi-Autonomy, but like the Irish-Norse Confederacy, are still in loose Union to Rachejk)

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/3010/dk19205xm.gif

The red colored portions of Ireland should be shaded in a different color than the rest of the island.
Yup.

Are you OCD? You must be OCD tajidstan because that is an insane amount of obsessing over and planning for a war...although I admit it is a big war but generally for the World Wars Ive rped we just go with the flow and eventually it gets really interesting...

Um, no... I just wanted to get a good, structured RP for people to enjoy. I don't think it would be so bad with this group, but with others it might devlove into a flame war over who wins the battle or something. It can be freeform and just develop as it goes along, I was just giving suggestions.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458783

this is the Kingdom of poland thread

Hey, since someone took Poland after I claimed it, how about I can just have the Seljuk Turks?

We definitly dont have one of those, and really need one. A Crusade is being organized against it, and our other two Muslim players have begun forming a Jihad to defend it. Now just sombody to be it.

EDIT: Incase you didn't see the thread Lach, The Raid on Flanders (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458790)

sorry about that Titicus, but thx for not getting upset

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10081086#post10081086

The Sultanate of Seljuk thread

Hm, darn... so the Turk just got nabbed from right under my nose. Oh well...

What countries remains then? Croatia?

mark me in? I am marked in, aren't I?
Marked in as Prince of Kievan Rus', but not all of Russia... They were all together as a supposed nation, yeah?

Hanseania, the following principalities and kingdoms are still open:
The second map shoes what principalities and kingdoms are available. The key is as follows:

1. Kingdom of Wales
2. Almoravid Caliphate
3. Banu Sulaym
5. Kingdom of Croatia
7. Kingdom of Zaragoza
8. Kingdom of Valencia

F1. County of Brittany
F2. County of Anjou
F3. County of Aquitaine
F4. County of Castres
F5. County of Barcelona
F6. County of Maçon
F7. County of Burgundy
F8. Counties of Blois-Champagne

R1. Domain of Pisa
R2. County of Tuscany
R3. Duchy of Spoleto
R4. County of Provence
R5. Kingdom of Burgundy
R6. County of Lombardy
R7. March of Verona
R8. Duchy of Swabia
R9. Duchy of Lotharingia
R10. Mark of Carinthia
R11. Duchy of Bohemia
R12. Duchy of Franconia (seat of the King of Germany)
R13. Duchy of Bavaria
R15. Duchy of Frisia
R16. Mark of Brandenburg
R17. Duchy of Pomerania

S1. Principality of Polotsk
S2. Principality of Perejaslawl
S3. Principality of Smolensk
S4. Principality of Chernigov
S5. Principality of Rostov-Suzdal
S6. Principality of Galicia
New map for slots: http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/218/basiceuropemap31eb.gif
New map: http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/7862/basiceuropemap21fd.gif

Feel free to stick this on the front page, Phil, if you want. I've coloured Saxony grey and the Seljuk/Abbasid Caliphate purple. I recoloured Mac dark blue-green, cos I need a common colour for the Roman Empire, and I'm going to use grey...

A thread is opened for the Kingdom of France.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458819
Lachenburg and Madnestan, please reply to your sovereign... :p

The Roman War, I have just one request, could you kill Yuroslav II in some martryish way, I don't mind if I end up losing then cos I'd still have a martyr.

Attention:The Gupta Dynasty, Ravea, Kaduna, Cantelmium, Wolfenbach

Ok, things are starting to get a little messy in Antolia, and we need to get this figured out. Basically we got a huge war brewing.

In the Knights of St. John thread as well as the Duchy of Malta thread we have a force of Malteses and Rhodians massing to strike the Seljuk Turks. (Is Sicily a part of this force as well?) They've ask for Byzantine help in attacking the Turks.

In the Mameluke Empire thread we have the Mameluke Empire declaring a Jihad to take Byzantine lands in Anatolia. I (Tunisia) have recently joined this Jihad. Kiev is sending forces to aid the Byzantine Empire.

So basically we have on one side:
Muslim Nations
-The Mameluke Empire
-The Emirate of Tunisia
-The Seljuk Turks (no one controls them, but I consider them a part of the war.)

and on the other side:
Christian Nations
-The Duchy of Malta
-The Knights of St. John (Rhodes)
-The Byzantine Empire
-The Principality of Kiev

There's no doubt that these to forces are going to meet. We need to discuss what will happen when they meet, and if there is a war, how the war will play out so we can make a good war RP.

Sounds good to me - Alexius Comnenus was one of the best Byzantine emperors. Hehe.

Okay if it is okay can I have the two territories what are to the south of Denmark and to the right, I will find all the stats after I get it, (for encouragement).;)

Many thanks Kalmykhia, for providing me with such a good map!
Not that I've gotten a good look at things, I think I'd be mighty happy if I could get my hands on area "R 10", or more precisely, the "Mark of Carinthia."
Going to dig up some information on it right now!

Cheers!

- The Friendly neighbourhood Hans

Okay if it is okay can I have the two territories what are to the south of Denmark and to the right, I will find all the stats after I get it, (for encouragement).;)

dude, I can't find which territories that you're talking about, I'm guessing it's Eastern Russia so i'll come back to this with some info on the Eastern Russians.

Two countries, one green and the other gray, one territory in between, that one and the one to the west of it. Really cannot know the capital but probably in Koingsburg or Tannenburg.

sorry dude, they're both Denmark, it's not very clearly indicated also (no offense meant by this) this RP is an alternate history you take a nation that existed circa 1087, hope you're still interested.

i think he's talking about pommerania and brandenburg. at this point pommerania is an independant duchy and brandenburg is a newly conquered part of the HRE

Christian Nations
-The Duchy of Malta
-The Knights of St. John (Rhodes)
-The Byzantine Empire
-The Principality of Kiev

Hungary has also stated on his News page that he may get involved, but he's going to see how things progress before comitting troops.

Still in the dark but these are some I want and am just wondering if any are open.

A- 13, 15, 16, 17

If not I will rethink (if it doesn't kill me.

been gone for a couple of days, noticed that my thread got lost in the hub-bub so here it is again - kingdom of scotland http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457911

Still in the dark but these are some I want and am just wondering if any are open.
A- 13, 15, 16, 17
If not I will rethink (if it doesn't kill me.

It's actually an R... Stupid Lucida Blackletter, and stupid me for trying to be all Gothic... They're Bavaria, Frisia, Brandenburg and Pomerania, respectively. All are free so far.
Hanseania, that Mark is actually a combination of a couple of smaller provinces in the HRE - Carinthia, Carniola, Styria, Austria, and Moravia. Brandenburg is actually a combination of Meissen, Lusatia, Brandenburg and Holstein - I merged provinces that were too small, which is why Franconia also includes Thuringia...
If people are talking about my map, they should use numbers, it'll make it easier for everyone.

Well then I will pick Bradenburg if it is okay, might as well start small. I will get a good amount of facts and all the needed items by tomorrow.

Another War Thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10085471

This is addressed to the:

Emir of Tunisia
Byzantine Empire
Kiev
Mameluke Empire
Rhodes
And Turks if we have them as a player yet.


We are all pretty close to fighting each other, but we're waiting of a Byzantine reaction to all of what's going on.

When we get that, are we all ready to begin R/Ping the impending war?

Who is hosting the knights Hospitallar?

Sorry Ive been away so long...Ill update everything...

The Seljuk Empire is now preparing to defend its lands and wishes to formalize the jihad against the invading Christians.

see other threads

William the Conquerer is still alive?

Hmmm, going to have to change some things in my own post then.

He shouldn't be. He died in 1087, pretty much the same time our thread starts.

(I believe that's why the good folks at Total War started the game then).

Just a quick reminder for Philanchez:
Moorington wants to be the Mark of Brandenburg.
Hanseania wants to be the Mark of Carinthia.
OOOH, we have two margraves! Nice!

So... I'll effectivly be controlling a sort of puppet state within the HRE?

So... I'll effectivly be controlling a sort of puppet state within the HRE?

Nope. Firstly, we don't have a Holy Emperor at the moment. And even if we did, there'd still be no problem. In the 11th Century, kingly control was very limited. There was a tendency for feudal authority to become splintered into smaller areas - namely, the counties and duchies of a kingdom. At the moment, in fact, I have trouble leaving Paris - and I'm the King of France! Of course, that will be sorted soon (damned robber barons of the Ile de France...)
But, of course, you will owe some loyalty to your Emperor, whoever that may be...

Right'o - I think I've got the hang of it then... I pay lip-service to the emperor of the HRE (whenever he decides to make an apperance) but otherwise govern my state as I see fit to, no?

But one thing stands unclear to me - If there is, in fact, no HRE in power at the moment, isn't Carinthia then in fact a free kingdom in its own right? it just doesn't make much sense to me to hold loyalty to an emperor who isn't really in place yet...

And before I forget it, is anyone colouring the areas conquered by other players, or do we simply go by memory?

even without an emporer you probably have some respect for the office, and the various nobles act as a confederacy for mutual defence, how much you want to follow that is up to you. but for the most part you are independant.
Sooner or later we should elect an emporer from the great nobles of the realm

Isn't Carinthia then in fact a free kingdom in its own right?

Do you mean Caranthania? Somebody actulay knows the country of my ancestors? :eek:

But no, it isn't free, it broak down on many small independent kingdoms in 1002.

Brandenburg is one of Germany's sixteen Bundesländer (federal states). Lying in the east of the country, in its current form it is one of the new states created in 1990 upon the reunification of the former West Germany and East Germany. The capital is Potsdam.

Historically Brandenburg was an independent state which grew to become the core of modern Germany (see below). The state of Brandenburg was named after the town of Brandenburg (Slavic: Brennabor).


Geography
Brandenburg is bordered by Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania in the north, Poland in the east, Saxony in the south, Saxony-Anhalt in the west and Lower Saxony in the northwest.

The Oder river forms a part of the eastern border, the Elbe river a portion of the western border. The main rivers in the state itself are the Spree and the Havel. In the southeast there is a wetlands region called the Spreewald; it is the northernmost part of the Lausitz, where the Slavic people of the Sorbs still live. These areas are bilingual, i.e. German and Sorbian are both used.

[edit]
Administration
Brandenburg is divided into fourteen (rural) counties (Landkreise),




Barnim
Dahme-Spreewald
Elbe-Elster
Havelland
Märkisch-Oderland
Oberhavel
Oberspreewald-Lausitz
Oder-Spree
Ostprignitz-Ruppin
Potsdam-Mittelmark
Prignitz
Spree-Neiße
Teltow-Fläming
Uckermark


and four independent cities (Stadtkreise),

Brandenburg an der Havel
Cottbus
Frankfurt an der Oder
Potsdam

Wikipedia junk, this time I will incorporate Berlin and the county of. Will move all of this stuff to another "News Thread".

Do you mean Caranthania? Somebody actulay knows the country of my ancestors? :eek:

But no, it isn't free, it broak down on many small independent kingdoms in 1002.
It's a different place, actually - Carinthia, a former duchy of the Holy Roman Empire. Apparently it's a province in northern Slovenia, on the Austrian border? Divided between Slovenia and Austria after WW1... That's what Wiki says...

EDIT: Ah, Karantania was around before then... Yeah, it's basically the same thing, but it is an independent duchy now... But ruled by Germans.

OMG! So active...Ill edit as fast as possible...

Due to my mediocre cognitive abilities, I now stand confused...

I can govern my Carinthia as I see fit, but must still pay loyalty to the Holy Roman Emperor, as well as fealty to the other principalities of the HRE, right?

Sorry you guys, I know I can be a bit of a thickie...

Due to my mediocre cognitive abilities, I now stand confused...

I can govern my Carinthia as I see fit, but must still pay loyalty to the Holy Roman Emperor, as well as fealty to the other principalities of the HRE, right?

Sorry you guys, I know I can be a bit of a thickie...

You are nominally/theoretically/formally a part of HRE. In reality, you do what you want in your own lands. N/T/F, you must send troops to aid HREmperor in his wars, and pay some percent of your taxes. In reality, you do these if you so feel.

You can play a loyal and obedient vassal, or an proud (all the way to arrogancy) and rather rebellious one, depending on your own likings.

I as gascony, for example, have chosen the latter path, though in IC only the first signs of this are yet visible :p

Any word on Jacques' reply to the King? I want to get on with the Mass at Rheims...

William the Conquerer is still alive?

Hmmm, going to have to change some things in my own post then.
Well, IRL he died from a saddle wound, but in this alt hist I have him recovering (For the time being) from that wound. He's still really old, around 60 though, and he's going to die soon. Probably in three years or something.

Philanchez, is my army the right size for my nation or is it too small.

id say an army of about 20,000 total would be appropriate. you should have a significant force of light cavarly given that you're a few generations from being nomads from the steppe.

I guess I somehow forgot about the light cavalry.

Hey, I'll be playing now as the Lord Captain Commander of the Knights of Burgos, Don Sancho Guero de Zamora, aka a commissioned fighting force of the Kingdom of Castile (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457855&page=2).

All info from hereon is OOC until properly RPed out, if that does happen:

I will be an elite arm of Castile, serving eventually in the Crusade that is inevitable, but first;

I will be moving all 500 men under my command eastward, gathering followers on the trek to the Holy Land;

And on the way east, have the country of Navarra (orange on the map?) in my sights, which has been arranged with Philanchez (Castile).

I would like to contact any people who are involved in all this, so here are my contacts, please add.

AIM: DrkCloud5591
YIM: DrkCloud5591
MSN: DrkCloud5591@hotmail.com

What is the year? It would probably be a good Idea to put the current year on the main post.

Got bored with the Danes and Flems... decided to sack England.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459159

I replied in the France thread, Kalmykhia.

Another war thread for Seljuk attack

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10094347#post10094347

Kalmykhia, dude, were are you from? i realy want to know, i am on like 3 or 4 forums and nobody even knows Slovenia, waht else, Karantania... :(

Now I really, REALLY want to have one thign cleared out! England is using thoudsands of longbowmen against the welshmen. About one, meaby one and a half hundred years early. Is this sort of a proceedure, using weapons that were available and technically possible but unused in the historical time, commonly accepted?

I am strongly against it. If this is the way we do it, then I can say that as long sticks and steel are an old invention my duke just woke up one morning with an idea of putting them together, =I field an army of Swiss style pikemen? Or he found some old Greek transcriptions, and decided to build a steam machine? Or a goddamn' submarine?

All those were already old inventions, but no one used them yet. With this longbow logic, starting to use them from now on is nevertheless "realistic"; they had been used before, and could have been used now.

I am not blaming Caladonn for this (...though I am blaming him for a horrible godmodding with the war itself, but one thing at the time...), just want to know how is the word "realism" understood in this RP.

after a war earlier in the RP (for some reason i've gone blank) the King of Normandy ordered that all men train for Longbow on the village green every Sunday after mass, as a realism mod I'm going to say that this is possible but they aren't as good as Longbowmen who fought in the Battle of Agincourt cos they havn't practiced as well, fair?

after a war earlier in the RP (for some reason i've gone blank) the King of Normandy ordered that all men train for Longbow on the village green every Sunday after mass, as a realism mod I'm going to say that this is possible but they aren't as good as Longbowmen who fought in the Battle of Agincourt cos they havn't practiced as well, fair?

No. Using a devastating weapon that makes the bulk of all of our armies, the knights, very close to complete obsolety so much before scheduled is everything but that.

No. Using a devastating weapon that makes the bulk of all of our armies, the knights, very close to complete obsolety so much before scheduled is everything but that.

the first apperance of a Longbow was 633 AD, the Brits realised then that the Longbow could make a devastating weapon and decided to incorperate it back then, there have also been records of the Longbow appearing pre BC times, it is only fair and logical that the English could begin using it prioir to the hundred years war, the final decision is ultimately down to Philli.

the first apperance of a Longbow was 633 AD, the Brits realised then that the Longbow could make a devastating weapon and decided to incorperate it back then, there have also been records of the Longbow appearing pre BC times, it is only fair and logical that the English could begin using it prioir to the hundred years war, the final decision is ultimately down to Philli.

As I just said, if that's the case I will train an army of Swiss style pikemen and build a steam machine.

Neither is new invention, but just wasn't used at this time. It will make this very stupid IMO, but it aint my choise so...

hmmm, it is a tough choice, leave it to Philli just to stop us arguing :P

i agree that english longbowmen now is to early. the welsh would be using the weapon at this time, part of the reason that they were abile to fight the english for awhile, but it hadn't permeated into england yet. besides a longbowman took a lifetime to train and were yeomen not peasants. My suggestion is that he can hire welsh mercenaries at significant cost or have to wait 10-20 years after the conquest of wales to use his own

I would have to agree, still too early for the Longbows to be used by the English.

Ya... there is simply no reason for the English to be using longbows. William the Conqueror was very sucessful without them. One does not change tactics that bring sucess. Now if he was being invaded, and his tactics continually failed, there may be a reason to try somthing else. But why else would the English one day wake up and say, "Long bows!", when their standard ways of fighting proved effective? There is just no reason for them to make long bows, nothing (such as the 100 years war) has provoked their use.

Well, I RPed a few being sent to the war of Castille. The fact is, I was contemplating a war on Wales, and I didn't want to expend many Norman knights helping Castille when I needed them in England. So, what would William the Conqueror do? Send in a force of troops that are, at the moment, unimportant to him! After several battles in the Reconquista, it is realised that the Longbowmen are successful, and a good addition to the knights, and so they were incorporated into the Welsh invasion force.

The Welsh were using longbows. They were good for hunting. Therefore, some Englishmen, probably near Wales, begin hunting with them. They are recruited to fight in Castille, they prove their worth, etc. It is true that my longbowmen are new to this- they just started recently, which is the reason that a lot of them were only able to take down a small force of mediocre Welsh knights, with the help of muddy ground.

I realise that the Normans still wouldn't realise quite how good longbows are, which is why in their English debut I RPed them being used mainly as a diversion, a way for the knights to come up upon the main body of Welsh troops. I think that this is a realistic usage.

As for numbers, I can make them smaller if you wish, but after all, if many commoners are training every Sunday after mass in their use, that provides a large pool of, albeit still not very well trained, longbowmen.

Kalmykhia, dude, were are you from? i realy want to know, i am on like 3 or 4 forums and nobody even knows Slovenia, waht else, Karantania... :(
I wikied it... The Carinthia thing came from a map someone posted here - had no idea about it before. But I'm glad to say I do know where Slovenia is...

As for longbows... Well, as it's 1100, none of us should be using anything more advanced than chain mail - knights with lances are out, longbows are out, etc. To be honest, we've only just started to get into the times of armies being larger than warbands - a century ago, a battle with ten or twenty knights was large... Even now, battles should be damn rare. William the Conqueror fought a grand total of two in his life. In nigh on 60 years, having to establish himself as Duke despite being illegitimate and coming to power as the Duchy fell apart, and conquering a kingdom. (They were Aix-la-Chapelle and Hastings, if you're interested). So, I'd have to totally disagree with the longbow. If you want 11th century longbowmen, there's always Age of Empires and the like...

Madnestan, I'm looking for a reply to the follow-up I posted in your thread; Lachenburg too. I have a cunning flan! Mmm, that makes me want a mince pie. I love Christmas! And all the French vassals are invited! Goodwill and cheer for all. At least, all who acknowledge their sacral king... :D

I agree, a few thousand longbowmen is too much....

Also, a 30.000 (i think it is around that number) men strong army recruited by englnd? England is around 3 times smaller then my empire and has around 50% smaller population per square mile of my empires... and i can only recruit a maximum of 80.000? :confused:

My total army is 24,500. However, these numbers are very high, and rightfully so, as my economy depends on high numbers. Raiding is my #1 Economic Source. Raiding lead by coastal cities... so those people that would be working the fields, are raiding the cities, with no counter effect against the economy. My 2nd source is slave mining. With a large slave population, the Western Cities are forced to have large guard forces, thus, higher numbers. My nation only has an actual force of 11,000 (Controlled by Rachejk). The rest are raiders, slave overseers and vikings.

The english can have longbows but not in the masses they are being used...They will also be moderate shots and not the trained marksmen like at Agincourt... They also will be scared of battle until they have fought in a few...

France is, at this time, the third largest country in the world, after India and China. In 1300, it can summon a total of 30,000 kan-ig-hits. Meaning, at most about fifteen thousand in 1100. And about fifty thousand men at arms. Probably somewhat fewer knights... That's in the largest country in Europe. When William went to England, he brought 8,000 men with him, and Harold had the same. I'd say 20-30,000 is about right for the TOTAL number of men under arms in England. Meaning he can't send that number on campaign. I'd say I could, just about. But 20,000, as far as I know, would be the upper UPPER limit on army size in this time period. Anyone want to correct me?

EDIT: Kalmykhia, on a puppet. Oops.

kan-ig-hits.

YOU WIN!!!

(for the subtley placed Monty Python reference)

As I said, my 'Armies' are bands of Viking Raiders with a maximum number of 450 per band. They do not work together, and are not armies in the sense we would think of them... they are more what we would consider business'. My actual army is numbered around 11,000 through all Norway. The 13,500 are raiders, not soldiers. Can they fight? Better than most soldiers. Do they owe loyalty to the king? He lead them through a revolution that gave them their jobs, thus they pay him tribute and will fight if loot is present or the homeland is under attack. Ah, and 1,500 of those 13,500 are Berserkers. They roam the mountains, listen to no one and raid Norse Mining Cities... they fight whomever they please... so '24,000' would be believable for a society such as mine. Others however... well I dont know how they would be able to amass such armies.

i think that at any one time at most a half more likely a third of any nations army can be deployed at one time (what with ralcritant vassels and securing towns and strongholds). A more professional army which i think only the byzantines have the organization and wealth for, can deploy a little bit higher fraction. Crusading forces can field most of their army at this point as they don't have large territories to secure. Also lets remember that with the limited logistics of this period any army larger than say 10,000 is gonna eat through the supplies of an area pretty dam fast. (just say no to 30,000 man armies). So 20,000 men for a medium sized kingdom, of which half can be sent to fight at a time is probably good. As kingdom sizes get smaller more men can be recruited proportionately from a smaller population as the rulers are more involved and can step on necks easier.

oh, and both the german and the greek roman empires out weigh the french by a bit. Germany and north italy together is about half again bigger, and Constantinople about 800,000 people living behind its triple walls when you can't find a 25,000 man town in northern europe. There were approximately 38 million people in europe then, so 1 million for england, 5 million for France 6 million for germany etc. should be right. (we're in a population boom right now though, so the numbers should double by the time the plague hits) with feudalism your army should be between 1 and 2 percent of your population.

No offense since Europe had a population of about 60-70 million at the time here is a list of apporaite populations:
England: 1,500,000-1,800,000
France: 5,200,000
Germany: 10,000,000
Other Holy Roman Empire Territories: 5,000,000-6,000,000
Hungary: 1,200,000
Poland: 1,000,000
Denmark: 900,000
Norway: 1,000,000
Sweden: 750,000
Byzantine Empire: 9,000,000-12,000,000
Northern Italy: 3,400,000
Central Italy (Including Rome): 1,800,000
Southern Italy: 2,400,000
Sicily: 900,000-1,200,000
Egypt: 5,000,000-8,000,000
Turkish Tribes (Seljuks): 1,500,000
Seljuk Empire: Unknown?? Possibly between 8,000,000-14,000,000
Tunis: 1,700,000
Wales: 380,000
Scotland: 270,000
Kiev: 1,000,000
Novorgrod: 900,000
Ireland: 500,000-700,000
Islamic Spain: 1.600,000-2,000,000
Aragon: 360,000-420,000
Castille: 950,000-1,200,000

I think I might start a war with Croatia on friday.

where did you find those numbers? (im not trying to be difficult, or complaing since these numbers would make my duchy equal to most of the kingdoms of europe, im just curious, i spent some time looking and didn't find many hard numbers)

Ill go with 1.1 million for castille...

Well, I genrally calculated them based on size, reports of city size, fertility of land (played a big part in population sizes), size of reported histrocial armies, real numbers of knights, number of large cities, and as well wealth (tends to attract settlers).

since these numbers give every one a basic idea on their effective size i'd vote to consider them to be true for the purposes of gameplay.

I do hope you are not basing Norse numbers off of modern day Norway, as they controlled the majority of modern day Sweden and portions of Ireland. I doubt those numbers are accurate, for land fertility does not determine living conditions. Disease, wars and government strength makes up far more of the statistics than fertility of land. As the land is owned by Nobles, thus, the people dont care where they live.

Spain for instance could not be correct. In 1769 the population of all Spain was 9,160,000. We have, just between Aragon, Castile and Muslim Spain with over 3 million. This is 700 years before. Their population only tripled in 700 years? No offense... these numbers jsut seem made up. Measuring population based on numbers of knights makes relatively no sense, as there are no knights in Asia, meaning no people live in asia. And wealth, once again, the vast majority of Europe was dead broke, with the exception of Northern Italy and the surrounding area, this would leave the most the world uninhabited. And army reports, again, not accurate. Fielded armies are based of wealth, not sheer population. Venice boasted armies larger than Central Europe. Was their population in the billions? No, they simply hired soldiers from the surrounding area. Before I take those numbers as dead set im gonna need to see some evidence of some sort, as these variables leave too much to the imagination... such as the island of Sicily, an agricultural, poor, rocky island (bad farming) has a higher population than all Scandinavia. Ya, im havin trouble believing any of those numbers.

sicily was a rich, heavily cultivated land in the middle ages, especially under muslim rule. this declined as time went on as did many places that had been inhabited for long periods. Its still known as a grain producing region though (volcanic soils help). Plus it would have a much longer growing season than scandanavia, which isn't that great for agriculture to begin with.
Fertility as a lot to do with it disease and war cut population temporarily, but humans always end up reproducing enough to bring population to around how much can be feed, not to mention the amount of disease, famine and war is somewhat dependant on the lands ability to support people. There were significant cases of settlers during this time, especially in spain and eastern germany where lords were trying to populate newly conquered lands. Spain would be a poor place to compare as population increased rapidly under muslim rule and the country has limited agriculture to start with. Europe's population growth was in areas that had limited agriculture in ancient times and took advantage of more fertile northern loam. England only increased to 5 and a half million by mid 1650 and it had significantly better prospects for growth. And id check the sweden thing again if i were you, they held some coastline but thats a stretch to say most.

If your worried about your army size, id say that given your nations circumstances a large warrior population is warrented (what with exporting them to plunder and the general militarization that happened after your revolution)

You don't honestly believe that I have less men that England, do you? England, the little island? I own Iraq, Iran, Syria, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Lebanon, and much of Turkey, Jordan, and Israel.
Ancient places which are some of the most heavily populated in the world, especially in the medieval times.

I found this site that says that Constantinople outnumbered England in the 12th century. And that the Byzantine Empire had between 10 and 15 million. My empire is bigger than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_the_Byzantine_Empire

the Middle Eastern nations are not in Europe, they should not be in a European list.

Check out this list
http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/

You ever been to Sicily? Ive got family over there, spent a few years in Italy... one thing you'll notice if you do live there. You dont eat the 'Traditional' Italian foods. You eat alot of sea food. Ya know why? Because the soil is filled with rocks. There are very few farms, the land is not rich nor suited for growing food. Now the Naples area, the South end of 'The Boot', that is an area which harvests great crops. But the island of Sicily, harvesting more people than Scandinavia... Grain is not the only source of food. Fishing, hunting and trading is a major area. Im not concerned with my army size, I simply want to know where these numbers came from.

I am half Sicilian... calling that island prosperous is a... horrible overstatement. Volcanic soil helps... but when over half the island has rocks burried in the soil, you cant get a damn thing done.

Italy's total population in 1700 was 13,357,000. According to this, Italy, not including Corsica nor Sardinia, has 9,000,000 in 1090. In 700 years... the population only went up four million? Eh? Guys... that is insane. Between 1700 and 2005 it went from 13.357 to 38.290 million. It nearly triples in three years, yet in 700 it doesn't even increase by a half. Once again, I need proof to believe these numbers, as they seem close to the numbers of the 18th century... 700 years later.

And the Norway landmass. Check any map of 1090. They own most of modern day Sweden.

The population of Europe was pretty static for a long time. The population has exploded in the last few centuries since the industrial, scientific revolutions

So how does that prove the population of 1090 is nearly the same as 1700? And the Scientific Revolution began well before 1700.

The population of the Roman Empire when it fell was around 25 million people. Now, assuming a lot of those people were also from North Africa, and that many died during the fall, we can safely claim a European population [at one point occupied by the Romans] to be around 20 to 22 million. Now, that's not including Germany and everything east thereafter. Nonetheless, the total population of Europe did not amount to more than 40 million persons in 1070, although contrary to what a lot of people claim there was a substantial economic boost throughout Europe during the change of millenia, but nothing huge - 40 million is a well rounded number.

population increases exponentially. Thats how it works. check out the site (tacitus) I posted above. It says in the year 1000, Italy had 5 million people. Watch it grow exponentially. I think 9 million in 1100 is fair, even too much, but I don't care.

You don't honestly believe that I have less men that England, do you? England, the little island? I own Iraq, Iran, Syria, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Lebanon, and much of Turkey, Jordan, and Israel.
Ancient places which are some of the most heavily populated in the world, especially in the medieval times.

I found this site that says that Constantinople outnumbered England in the 12th century. And that the Byzantine Empire had between 10 and 15 million. My empire is bigger than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_the_Byzantine_Empire

the Middle Eastern nations are not in Europe, they should not be in a European list.

Check out this list
http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/


Believe it or not, Spain, England and France equal Russia in modern day population, and are a tenth of the size of Russia - so, population has nothing to do with the size of your landmass. The Byzantine Empire was a fluvial and mercantile hub, which explains the high population growth. Most of which you own, save Iraq and Israel, were largely unpopulated, or had low rates of growth - the only other hubs you can claim in your possession are Baghdad and Jerusalem, with minor hubs at Acre.

population increases exponentially. Thats how it works. check out the site (tacitus) I posted above. It says in the year 1000, Italy had 5 million people. Watch it grow exponentially. I think 9 million in 1100 is fair, even too much, but I don't care.


Eeek, it also drops, especially in that era. In fact, 25% of Europe was dead after the Black Death, although the Bubonic Pleague is too far ahead to use in this discussion. Regardless, the era between 500 and 1000 A.D. accounted for a lot of death and destruction. In fact, the only cultural areas of the world that can be truly considered cultural and popular centers were Cordoba, Jerusalem and Constantinople.

I cant imagine England had many more. London... York? Eh... I dont see England's population (without Wales and Scottland mind you) beating out many Med. States.

I cant imagine England had many more. London... York? Eh... I dont see England's population (without Wales and Scottland mind you) beating out many Med. States.

At that time, no; it was merely an example that territorial size has nothing to do with population size. It has more to do with what were the cultural and mercantilist nexi of the era.

i think maybe he was just thinking the sultanate of Rum when he was calcing yours. also from 1000 to the black death in the 1300s europe's population exploded, and then promptly collapsed. Irregardless, population depends on food, otherwise population growth is quickly clawed back by disease, famine, and war. Thats why european population during the middle ages greatly increased, while the middle east which was already working at or above capacity remained the same or decreased.

And i did look at the map of sweden and norway at 1000 and 1100. Norway has some more coastline. the major population centres in Gotland etc. are still swedish. Oh and if you look at the population site thingy it says norway had a quarter million in 1500, so i think approaching a million is more than generous. Acknowledge the fact that most of Norway isn't productive farmland and food from other sources isn't going to make up the shortfall. Trade did supply the Romans with enough food to have way more population than what is warrented by farmland, but that requires a network of politically influenced farm lands, plus fleets devoted to trafficing the food.

a for gods sack man, if you just wiki sicily right in the begining it mentions sicily being a breadbasket in the ancient world. im not denying the rocks im just following what the sources ive looked at tell me happened

I'm not saying I have as many men as the Byzantines, just that I have much more than England, and more than Egypt, which has 7 million, according to the thingie.

Islamic Culture had reached its high point in science, art, and power at this time - two of the great cities you mentioned were Muslim, Cordoba and Jerusalem.

Except the Muslim cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Antioch, Aleppo, Basra, Karbala, Ankara, Konya, Qom, Isfahan, Tabriz, Kerman, Herat were all great cities, all in the Seljuk domains.

I guess he could be thinking of the sultan of rum

OOC: by the way, Maccabees, go Chargers - they're going to beat the Colts, eh?

Eh, my thread for now: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458388

The population of the Roman Empire when it fell was around 25 million people. Now, assuming a lot of those people were also from North Africa, and that many died during the fall, we can safely claim a European population [at one point occupied by the Romans] to be around 20 to 22 million. Now, that's not including Germany and everything east thereafter. Nonetheless, the total population of Europe did not amount to more than 40 million persons in 1070, although contrary to what a lot of people claim there was a substantial economic boost throughout Europe during the change of millenia, but nothing huge - 40 million is a well rounded number.Acutally, I think you may be thinking of the Western Empire, but I amny be wrong. Also as well Europe was estimated to have dobuled in population from 50-70 million to about 120-140 in about the time of the Black Death.

Also, read it from a website and gathered some info from books. Sorry, Titicus i though your terriotories were only in Asia Minor, not the whole Seljuk Empire.

oh, and both the german and the greek roman empires out weigh the french by a bit. Germany and north italy together is about half again bigger, and Constantinople about 800,000 people living behind its triple walls when you can't find a 25,000 man town in northern europe. There were approximately 38 million people in europe then, so 1 million for england, 5 million for France 6 million for germany etc. should be right. (we're in a population boom right now though, so the numbers should double by the time the plague hits) with feudalism your army should be between 1 and 2 percent of your population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_Middle_Ages
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

These both support my point that France was the biggest. Now, please note that it being the largest country does not necessarily mean that it's bigger than the Caliphates or the HRE - because they are made up of multiple kingdoms. But it is bigger than Germany, but I'd say not by much - Germany is probably in the 9 million region. The Byzantine, by now, is probably at the lower end of your range. Northern Italy is a HRE territory, by the way.

http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/population.html
This page shows populations on the much lower end ofhe scale - about five million for France, and everyone else proportionally smaller. This one is the same.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html

Found this by accident while looking at the population: http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/Subjects.html.
It's a mediaeval tech page!
Just wondering, has anyone here read Fiefs and Vassals by Susan Reynolds? I started to, but I had to return it...

Madnestan, I see you editing your post in the France thread, but I'm not getting anything different from what it was originally. Did you see my new letter in your thread?

I did, but had no time to respond due the hurry I was in. Sorry for the waiting.

Cheers Madnestan, no worries about the delay, I'm still waiting on Lachenburg to tell me whether the Count will be there - if I don't get a response by Friday evening, I'll assume he isn't, and proceed with the Mass. Anyone who wants to can send representatives.
The bit about removing you was just a polite reminder that I can - theoretically - still remove you from your post, duchies and counties aren't hereditary yet. And I don't know what your household is - have you got any kids? Mothers, sisters/brothers, cousins, uncles/aunts, nieces/nephews? Philip will give Jacques a reply when I know that information. A son would be nice, if you have one.

Huh, good point, I have completely passed the hereditary issue... Quite silly to ask you to name his family members for hostages when I don't know them mysel! Hmm... Let's say he has a brother and a young wife but no kids just yet. I'll add more info to the news thread at some point.

About the other thing, I understood very well what your remainder was for, but the answer was made to make Jacques' standing clear; he is obeying the king for now, but not a step further than the formalities require. I am planning to play him as a quite refactory fellow, and that is perhaps leading to even a open conflict later on. We'll see ;)

I based my army numbers off what Philanchez told me, that is, a standing peacetime army of 10,000 men, and a total army of 25,000 men. As I'm in war, all of my army is activated. I've got 20,000 men in the Welsh war, leaving 5,000 men in England. Since I have an efficient census allowing me to enforce military service far better than most other kingdoms, I have around 200 castles protecting the populace, allowing me to keep less soldiers garrisoned than normal, and all the troops on the Welsh border (A significant portion of my standing army) are in the campaign, I believe I am able to send this force into combat.

As for longbowmen, I can have a more gradual shift to them with less active forces right now if you wish.

Just a thought:Titicus, while you do have possession of these territorries and the peoples in them, your army and garrisons should be proportionate. I mean, if you were to lose a large part of your main army in Anatolia, then it would be highly impractical for you to send forces from other parts of your Empire (especially on a frequent basis). Once or twice is realistic but more than that, your Empire would start dissolving.

This is a post for everyone, just because I noticed that we were throwing around figures, but we have to be realistic with them. If you have an army MAX of 1,000,000 and you send 900,000 men to war, whats to stop bandits, crime or even an eager general from running chaos through your nation. Just wanted to address this before I see someone send 2 Mill + soldiers into battle because the have them.

Hmmm... Well, I can't take the wife obviously, cos you need her to make an heir, so it'll have to be the brother. You didn't give a name, so I'm going to call him the Count of Toulouse - fair assumption to say you'd give your brother one of the most important fiefs in your kingdom to keep it close to you, right? Reply will follow a few mins after this. We have you and Caladonn sorted out, just waiting for Lachenburg to say something or Friday evening.
Caladonn, I'd say that your numbers are probably a little bit on the high side for 1100. You've only been in power 20 years, things are still a little rough - and you've killed one fifth of the English population.

Current Time Winter 1090

Thanks for pointing that out, man.

I thinks its a peculiarity of the Seljuks that the majority of their army traveled with the Sultan or major leaders. Because of this they had to have trust in their local governors. (A reason for their downfall) I am looking into making this more efficient. And yes, thats all true

Hmm, completely forgot this last night... New map for the front page.
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/706/basiceuropemap39xt.gif

Spring 1091

Kalmychia, Saragossa has surrendered to me...

Wales has joined my Kingdom.

oh yeah, just so philanchez knows, can post it - the muslim jihad has begun

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10094347#post10094347

Hungary demands King Peter's (of Croatia) to abdicate.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459597

We seem to be having a slight problem in my raid on England, I think if Phil or one of the Realism/War Mods would take a look, we could continue much quicker. The problem is explained in the thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459159

We seem to be having a slight problem in my raid on England, I think if Phil or one of the Realism/War Mods would take a look, we could continue much quicker. The problem is explained in the thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459159
Here are my thoughts - I'm not a realism mod though, so they aren't binding, just contributing.
It would be acceptable to have ringing of the church bell mean, "Everybody run to the manor", as that would be a pretty common signal. The problem is, it'd take at least a minute from sighting to ringing - the guy has to see it, call out to the other guards, and wait for someone to ring it. That's assuming it's a guard - if it's just a regular person, he has to run to the church himself. By the time the warning has come, the raid will have started - there will be no time for everyone to get out of the town, let alone grab all their possessions.
As for the manor containing everyone, not only would everyone not fit, but the lord would be very very unlikely to let a whole load of townspeople into his manor. If it was a village, and they were his serfs or tenants, then maybe, because he depends on them, but townspeople contribute much less to a lord's income.

Oh yes, new map (again): http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/5945/basiceuropemap35nw.gif
And please post any happenings here - especially new threads (for Philly) or conquests (for me, as I guess I'm the official mapmaker now).

OoC:Currently RPing the invasion of Navarra/Aragon as the Knights of Burgos, when finished (if I'm successful,) it will become a province of Castile ruled directly by me.]

I guess that sounds alright Kalmykhia, as long as we understand when the Vikings land, there is chaos and unorganized resistance, not a well prepared defence in a fortified mansion.

attn to Caladonn and Mods, began march on Northumbria in my thread (Kingdom of Scotland). Caladonn if you want to start a seperate war thread let me know. Also if a mod is willing and it comes to war, i would appreciate if tactics could be discussed with a mod, before posts, with them arbitrating the outcome, just seems like a good idea to keep fairness. It doesnt even have to be a moderator just another objective third party player.

I'm sorry but...I have too much on my plate, so I've decided to relinquish the Republic of Venice.

With growing activity on other boards, I find myself hardpressed to continue Role-Playing in Earth Medieval. Thus, I hereby reliquish my claim to the County of Flanders and give my deepest apologies to those still active.

No prob NYC and Lachenburg, I'll mark you off the map. Kroando, I thought that would go without saying - resistance would be disorganised unless the knight had men at his manor - and then there would only be prehaps ten or twenty of them.

Hungary demands King Peter's (of Croatia) to abdicate.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459597

Does anyone want to rp Croatia's army?

Is there room for another player?
If so I claim Corsica and Sardinia as the Kingdom of Corsica and Sardinia

CRAP! I go to a swim meet for one day and two people quit and we have a new offer to join. Well Skitsojd, you will have to talk to Kalmykhia as Im not sure that there is a Kingdom of Corsica and Sardinia. Anyway I will add threads to the front page and do other such ministerial tasks...

Nevermind the Kingdom of Sardinia came into being in 1814 so... thats out of the picture.
I guess then I would be the Republic of Genoa.

May I recomend clearing out the inactive members? On first glance, it seems Europe is pretty much filled up, however, half of those members have either never posted, or post very rarely. Such as Sweden. We have a Sweden? He never made a post. Just a suggestion to help recruitment.

Indeed a good idea. Purge of members...NOW!

Bumpdated. Nations have been purged so comeon please join!

I would like to join as the Republic of Genoa which is I think R4 on the map.
The Republic of Genoa was a seperate Entintity starting 1100 to sometime in the 1800's. So saying that it was a country in 1097 isn't too much of a jump from reality.

Actually its currently 1091 but you are technically independant...you just pay lipservice to the HRE...

Genoa's a rich port. I can handle the lipservice.

Ok. Added. Now do me a favor and help England takeout Scotland!

attn to Caladonn and Mods, began march on Northumbria in my thread (Kingdom of Scotland). Caladonn if you want to start a seperate war thread let me know. Also if a mod is willing and it comes to war, i would appreciate if tactics could be discussed with a mod, before posts, with them arbitrating the outcome, just seems like a good idea to keep fairness. It doesnt even have to be a moderator just another objective third party player.
Yep, saw your march. You do realise though that a. You're marching in winter, and b. my forces have had 5 days (IRL) to prepare for you, plus previous defenses. Nonetheless, I agree about the whole fairness thing.

As for the Viking raid, there's some sort of wooden keep in the town. When the church bell rang, the people near the middle of the town grabbed what they could and ran there, while most just grabbed stuff and took to the hills. There definitely aren't thousands of people in the keep. There are a substantial amount of guards though.

Also, attention to all my allies, that is, Gascony, Castille, Denmark, Saxony, and France, I need your help in this war against Scotland. Obviously if you help me now I'll be more than available to return the favor in the future.

Note that Castille and Saxony have already responded.

yeah, do you need more men from me or are the one that are already there sufficent?

This is good for now. If Ireland decides to get in on the show and attack me then I'll need a few more troops.

If Ireland does... can anyone say, "Full Scale Viking Invasion"?

Would you need some Genoian Money or Ships to help. I would be happy to lend some help.

The Mark of Bradenburg will gladly help in both the Crusades and the Viking Menece but my only wish is to get all the plunder that my forces capture.

Is there room for another player?
If so I claim Corsica and Sardinia as the Kingdom of Corsica and Sardinia
Corsica and Sardini are under the auspices of the Domain of Pisa, R1. R4 is actually the County of Provence. Genoa is actually in R6, the Duchy of Lombardy, but feel free to call it the Republic of Genoa. You've taken R6... New map: http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/9913/basiceuropemap38ji.gif
Phil, you're missing the Duchy of Saxony in the list of players, and the war thread for Flanders should be killed.
Christmas Mass, 1092, will follow tomorrow. I'm going to assume that the Count of Toulouse is in attendance. Madnestan and Caladonn, this is for you especially. Anyone else who wants to have a noble attending, feel free.

I have information on Genoa.
It can be found here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459805)

hmmm this is my problem with the way we have the years advancing, i posted my march and then was waiting for replies because it would be impolite to roleplay the reaction of the northumbrians, when i had posted the march in it was winter, the guys from wales were just begining there march back and the warriors who were fighting in castille had been returned. As I waited for the reactions and some ooc character talk to see how this would reasonably go, suddenly the northumbrians have had a year to prepare for me and ten thousand men, odd considering all i had to do was cross a bridge to be in the area where as the army from wales would have roughly three-hundred miles to go with foot in winter. I mean think of the strategy involved, England is stretched out with its forces fighting on several fronts with troops overseas and plus paying for all the coastal castles and increased army as well as the cost of consolidating wales, I dont have far to go, I'm heading to a warmer region and a place where my troops are recognized. The English armies would have far to go and northumbria is not very large with so many troops stationed there a year, the food cost wold be dramatic unless you have supply trains focused on the region. You have numbers and better military equipment I'd say, and if William the Conquerer leads them the edge of moral, but a year to prepare? 10,000 troops already their with foreign allies from Castille? New Castles already built? As it is I included the two fairly large ones that were being constructed durring this time period. I think your making this more like a video game where you can actually win and loose, rather than an rp where we are working it out for our mutual enjoyment.

I agree. At the time He posted his march, no one replied. However, posts were made stating the construction of fortifications and the movement of forces. Three months later, his troops did not move (because nobody responded), and the English are already there. The RP should pick up from the moment his troops enter said land, not after three months once the English are ready.

The time system is, to my understanding, the system we have in place mixed with an element of fluid time, thus, the English Army has not reached you. The Castille Army wouldn't be there for much longer.

indeed. in battles and wars and other interactions it is taken as fluid time...

Christmas Mass is being celebrated in the Cathedral at Rheims. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=460043)
This is mainly for the attention of Caladonn and Madnestan - if you could just make some sort of post saying that your representative is there listening to the Mass to show me you know this thread exists, that'd be great. Anyone else who wants to be there is welcome to. Just assume you're there in the congregation.

Well, I posted the movement of troops a day (IRL) before you posted your invasion. Unlike you, I did post moving my forces. I think it'd take quite a while for you to gather 8,000 men from your garrisons all around the country. I already had a large army gathered for the Welsh invasion.

Also, I don't look at every single person's thread every day, so it's kinda hard for me to know if you're attacking me if you post it in your internal thread. Everyone else has started new threads for their wars.

Yes, it's true that food is a problem, but I can send it from other areas of the kingdom. As I said, I am taking a toll from having my army at full strength and new building projects, and if there was nothing happening my people would be discontented- however, considering I'm under invasion, they accept it. It is, after all, defending them. I only sent 1,500 men to Castille, and that's hardly enough troops to warrant 'fighting on multiple fronts.' Not to mention that an isolated raid on an English town too small to warrant a castle doesn't really count as a front either. In point of fact, I wasn't really fighting on any fronts, as the Welsh had surrendered.