NationStates Jolt Archive

Thank you, Nebarri_Prime, for your swift reply.

Now it is Voxio’s turn. We have discussed these questions already, and what I have below is (I believe) a pretty good summary of his answers.

With respect to Ethiopia, I missed the post where Italy openly threatened it with invasion, or even began an orchestrated campaign of provocation. The only post I recall that suggested that Italy was preparing to for something in East Africa was Post #750 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9636024&postcount=750)...To: The Commander of Italy’s forces in east Africa.
From: King Victor

It is time to prepare for war, begin building a system of trenches along the Abyssinian-Italian colonial border.Which is hardly provocative (after all, who’s to say that it’s not defensive war Italy is preparing for?). I don’t even see a post of any kind announcing a troop build-up, although there must have been one, since the normal peacetime establishment in both Eritrea and Italian Somaliland was well below 10,000 men (apiece) in RL. As for diplomatic feelers, apparently the Dual Monarchy was the only European government aware of any aggressive intentions on the part of Italy toward Ethiopia, and since no one has RP’ed having a high-level spy in Vienna, that information could not possibly have gotten out.

Essentially, then, France guessed that Italy was seeking a rematch with Ethiopia, and acted on its suspicions. Since it was France that RP’d a diplomatic overture on the part of Ethiopia toward France, we have to wonder what made Ethiopia think that there was any danger of attack by Italy (especially because the only overt move taken by the Italians was the construction of defensive works along the Eritrean-Ethiopian border!).

I’ve also reviewed Italy’s stated military moves because I believe Bogmihia has a different idea of what those moves were than anybody else. What I see is this: No initial troop deployment to East Africa, although there must have been one to arrive at the necessary numbers in Eritrea and Italian Somaliland to be able to draw Italy’s forces back down to 10,000 men in each location (I will arbitrarily assume a build-up to 20,000 men in Eritrea and 15,000 in Italian Somaliland to facilitate this).


The assignment of 4 divisions (65,000-90,000 men [pre-WWI divisions usually numbered just over 22,000 men, rather than the 17,000 commonly seen in WWII]) to Prince Umberto, for a war against France.


The withdrawal of an unspecified number of men from Italy’s East African colonies, at the same time as the troops mentioned above are given to Prince Umberto.


The dispatch of 6 divisions (100,000-135,000 men) to East Africa in response to Ethiopia’s invasion of Italy’s colonies there.


The dispatch of Prince Umberto’s 4 divisions (65,000-90,000 men) to Sardinia in response to the growing threat of war with France.Therefore, the questions I must ask Italy are: When did Italy begin sending troops to East Africa and preparing defensive positions along its borders with Ethiopia? In early June (pick a day randomly).


When did Italy first mobilise its forces against France? The day after France issued its ultimatum to Portugal.


When did Italy begin the partial demobilisation of its forces following the end of the Portuguese Crisis? One week after the fall of the Poincaire government.


When did Italy begin to remobilise its forces? On the same day that France began its mobilisation against Germany.


When did Italy issue its ultimatum to France demanding the surrender or Corsica? On the same day Germany demanded the return of Alsace and Lorraine.


When did the King of Italy assign 4 divisions to Prince Umberto? One week after Louis Phillipe, Duc d’Orleans, returned to France and declared himself for the French throne.


When did Italy begin withdrawing troops from East Africa? On the day after the aforementioned 4 divisions were given to Prince Umberto.


When did Italy begin assembling a relief force to be sent to East Africa? Two days after Ethiopia invaded East Africa (IOW, as soon as word arrived that the Ethiopians were invading its East African colonies)


When did Italy begin dispatching troops to Sardinia? One week after the troops were assigned to Prince Umberto, or two days after Ethiopia invaded East Africa (as above), whichever came first.


When did Italy declare war on France? One week after it began sending troops to Corsica.


When did Italy’s fleet put to sea? On the same day as Italy declared war on France.Again, my suggested answers are in red; these can be accepted by Voxio simply saying “agreed” or modified as he wishes. Answers can, of course, be conditional on some “triggering” event (although other players’ actions should only be employed as triggers very sparingly, to avoid deadlocks).

Don't you think you're a bit mean? Why don't we speak about the 15 year old Lij Iyasu?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyasu_V_of_Ethiopia<Glowers at Bogmihia’s impudence>

So you want the kid, eh? Fine, you can have him and his daddy, Ras Mikael, too. I’ll be happy to take the faction that opposed him.

<Grays out previous posts on Ethiopia, to be replaced with new ones>

Now, for the fun part…

<Dons righteous smackdown gloves, opens can of whoop _ss, and smiles sadistically>

First, look here (http://groups.msn.com/LIONOFETHIOPIA/emperormenelikii18891913.msnw). In 1906 things did not go well for Ethiopia. Menelik was sick, and the two men who might have become the next emperor-Ras Makonnen of Harar and Ras Mangasha of Tigre-died. The Germans began to be strong in Ethiopia, and the Tripartite Treaty was signed. Menelik’s health became worse, and in 1907 he appointed several leading men to help him rule as a Council of Ministers. In June 1908 he called all the rases together and said that his grandson, Lij Yasu, would be emperor when he died. In the fall of 1908 Menelik has a bad sickness and couldn’t talk or move.

Because Lij Yasu was only 12 and could not rule Ethiopia wisely, Ras Tesemma was made regent. The other rases all tried to gain power. Empress Taitu, Menelik'’ wife, tried to take authority. She wanted Zauditu, Maneliks daughter from another wife, to be made ruler. Menelik was still living but was too sick to rule, so each of the other groups fought for power. In 1911 ras Tesemma died and the confusion increased. Finally on December 12, 1913, king Menelik died and Ethiopia lost one of her greatest emperors.That would make Lij Iyasu 16 in 1912, still very much a teenage boy. Also note the reference to Ras Tessema, Iyasu’s Regent, dying in 1911 and “the confusion increase(ing)”.

Now look here (http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eastafrica/abyssinia18961935.html).Lij Yasu was only 17 years of age when he became ras in 1913, some accounts state that he had converted to Islam; he entered into communication with SAYYID MUHAMMAD, the "Mad Mullah" that caused the British in British Somaliland to be so much troubled. The Ethiopian church functioned prominently in the coup which ousted Lij Yasu in 1916.This, too, would set his age at 16 (on December 12th, 1912).

Our next stop is here (http://www.angelfire.com/ny/ethiocrown/lij.html), which represents the single most extensive source on the web with respect to the life and times of the enigmatic Iyasu. I can’t believe you missed this page, what with you going on about Ethiopian Imperial titles (and you assumed that I hadn’t already found this site… tsk, tsk, tsk).Lij Eyasu Michael was the son of Ras (later King)Michael Ali of Wollo, and Woizero Shewaregga Menelik, and was born in 1901.That would make him 11 in 1912. So few sources, and so much disagreement.In October 1909, it was decided that Lij Eyasu should be betrothed to marry Romanework Mengesha, daughter of Ras Mengesha Yohannis, and grandaughter of Emperor Yohannis IV. She was also the daughter of Woizero Kefey Welle, and thus great-neice of Empress Taitu. It was a brilliant political match on several levels. This marriage was the second attempt at a union between the Houses of Tigrai and Shewa (the first being the marriage between Ras Araya Selassie Yohannis and Princess Zewditu which ended with the death of the Ras),and it had the added element of involving an alliance between Empress Taitu's family and that of Ras Michael. It was clearly a product of the Empress' policy of political marriage, and served her interests nicely. As the couple were still very young, the nuptuals were not consumated, pending their coming of age.To young to marry in 1909, eh?

This next section addresses the Negus Neguse’s infirmity.Not long after the death of his cousin Makonnen (in 1906 – NO), Emperor Menelik collapsed while watching renovation work being done on the Church of St. Mary on Mt. Entoto where he had been crowned. Although he had recovered swiftly, and returned to the Palace, attempts to keep the incident quiet failed, and rumors of his ill health intensified. Menelik had actually suffered a stroke at Entoto. The visiting Italian governor Martini of Eritrea would state that signs of the stroke were apparent in the Emperor's eyes. Menelik suffered yet another stroke in August 1907, and although he endured the various celebrations of his 63rd birthday on August 19th, he looked unwell to all who saw him. On May 18, 1908, Emperor Menelik was again on Mt. Entoto, on his way north to Sellale with the Empress to attend the dedication of a church, when he suffered yet another stroke. This time, his right side was paralized temporarily, and he was greatly weakened. He could not return to Addis Ababa until the 10th of June. Immediately upon his return to the capital, Empress Taitu began to tightly regulate access to the Emperor and began to assume more and more executive power. The Emperor had become dependent on support to walk, and his speech was greatly affected. His physical decline was steady after that. Over the next year, all the nobles and the foriegn diplomats were informally notified that Lij Eyasu was the legitimate heir to the Emperor of Ethiopia. It had been generally assumed since the death of Ras Makonnen, but it took on a more formal existance now. Then in early May, 1909, the nobles were assembled before the Emperor, and Empress Taitu approached him and asked publicly who his successor should be. The weakened Emperor whispered in her ear and she turned to the assembly and said "He says Lij Eyasu"Back to the young Prince…Shortly after this betrothal (of Lij Iyasu to Romanework Mengesha – NO), on October 30th, 1909, it was publicly and unabiguously proclaimed that the Heir to the Throne and Crown Prince of Ethiopia was indeed, Lij Eyasu Michael, grandson of Menelik II. The Emperor also had his chairman of the cabinet of ministers, Ras Tessema Nadew proclaimed Lij Eyasu's guardian and Lord Regent of the Empire, and that he would serve in this capacity if Menelik should die before Eyasu reached the age of majority.Hadn’t reached the age of majority by 1909? Hmmm.Menelik's health then deteriorated to the point where he became unresponsive, and Ras Tessema began to rule the Empire in trust for Lij Eyasu.So much Menelik II asking anyone for anything; at this point, letters and proclamations issued in his name were all exactly that – issued in his name, but not by the man himself, who had become incapable of action. And by February, 1910...Ras Tessema was now the de facto as well as the de jure ruler of Ethiopia, and all business would now be conducted in the name of the Heir to the Throne, Lij Eyasu, rather than in the name of Menelik, King of Kings.On my characterisation of the young Prince:Ras Tessema's other royal problem was the public behaviour of the heir himself. Lij Eyasu exasperated the old man to no end. The Ras was constantly telling the Prince to behave in a more royal manner, to dress more aproprately, and to pay more attention to serious affairs of state. Lij Eyasu had grown into a handsome dashing young man, intent on seducing every woman in sight. It was rumored that even Woizero Beletshachew, wife of Ras Tessema, was one of the Princes lovers. He took to wearing wide borders on his netelas and shemas (shawls) that had customarily been reserved for women, and took great pride in starting this trend among young men of his age. This behavior was regarded as unseemly by the regent, who continuously repremanded the boy and act more seriously, heed his elders more closely and waste less time with his young co-horts and hangers-on.This puts the lie to the earlier statement that Iyasu was born in 1901, since a 9-year old could hardly be such a rake – but at 14 or 15, in a tribal society, such a thing was easily possible.

I will issue a point-by-point demolition of your earlier “refutation” of my post in a later post of my own. But there is one statement that I need to cite here for the sake of clarity:Right now, Iyasu is the heir apparent attempting to get a better position through war. On the Abyssinian side, the only people who have to know about the deal are Iyasu (of course), the regent Ras Tessema Nadew and - maybe - the war minister, Fitawrari Hapte Giorgis Denagde. The others don't have to be told about it.There’s one little problem with this scenario – Ras Tessema Nadew is dead.Then quite suddenly, on the night of April 10th, 1911, Ras Tessema Nadew, Lord Regent of the Empire of Ethiopia, died suddenly at his home. His body was quickly taken to Debre Libanos and buried before the news was announced. The entire court was shocked, and people began to whisper rumors of poison. Suspicion flowed in two directions. First it was rumored that Lij Eyasu had ordered the poisoning, as he was growing tired of the lectures and the restraint on his authority that the regent represented. It was suspected that Tessema's widow, Beletshachew also had a hand in it as she was suspected of being Eyasu's mistress, and perhaps hoped for an elevation of her position with her husband out of the way. She fanned those fires even further when she refused to go into mourning for her husband. The other suspect was the Empress Taitu, who people regularly blamed for the deaths of her enemies and people in her way. Rumors aside, no proof has ever been made public that the regent was murdered.For quite some time I wracked my brains trying to figure out who replaced Ras Tessema as Regent. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that no one did – but at the same time, Lij Iyasu does not seem to have been accorded all of the respect that one might expect of an (implicit) Prince Regent.Lij Eyasu was now in fact free of the Regency. His father arrived from Desse to try and organize a structure for his son's minority. Between November 1911 and January 1912, he reorganized the cabinet and the council, making them guides and advisors to Eyasu, rather than governors over him. He believed perhaps that the added responsibilties would calm the boy down and focus him. However, Lij Eyasu would now do pretty much as he pleased. It was said he enjoyed insulting the nobles and sleeping with their wives and daughters. It was said that he could treat a prostitute like a princess, but that he also treated a princess like a prostitute. This was not the only act that aggrieved the aristocracy. Lij Eyasu's closest companion was "Tilahun" a former domestic servant to his mother. Tilahun was maliciously rumored to have offered Lij Eyasu his own wife (whom he later divorced) so that the prince could lose his virginity years before, and that the prince had happily accepted the offer. To make matters worse, Lij Eyasu granted Tilahun the title of Fitawrari, and the two led a group of young companions on boisterous pursuit of drink and women. To the horror of the Shewan aristocracy, Lij Eyasu arranged for Tilahun to marry Woizero Sakamyelesh Seyfu, decendant of King Sahle Sellasie of Shewa and a member of the Imperial house. He began to refer to the nobles and ministers of his Emperor Menelik as "my grandfather's fattened sheep" and contemptuously told many of them that their time had passed, and that it was time for him to choose new nobles and new ministers of his own preference and his own generation. He continued however to seduce their wives and daughters.Give a juvenile delinquent that much power, and there will certainly be H_ll to pay for it.

One thing does emerge from a closer study of this period: as much as Lij Iyasu, free of the Regency (as the article puts it) may have had the de jure authority to run Ethiopia, he was not in fact in charge of the country. His father, Ras Mikael, was.

This is France’s champion, then – a hard-drinking, frivolous underage playboy who relies on his daddy to clean his messes up for him. Add a dozen years, and you could have a George Walker Bush. For the purposes of our forthcoming “Lion of Judah” RP thread, however, we will need to determine the lad’s whereabouts, as this will be crucial to the communications issue.In February of 1912, Lij Eyasu went to Wollo to visit his father. He spent much time there meeting with people of many backgrounds, but Moslems in particular, trying to show them that he was concerned about their interests as much as those of his Christian subjects. The aristocracy and the church hierarchy began to whisper uneasily about why he chose to spend so much time with moslems. He began to roam the north extensively, and even founded the town of Alem Tena (named after his warrior or horse name Abba Tena). He then led an attack on the Afar to punish them for their attacks on the Jille Oromo of Shewa. In yet another even more brutal contradiction of his seemingly benevolent progressive views, he led a raid on the Gimira in the southwest and forcibly enslaved tens of thousands of them after a bloody campaign. He was gone for a year. His return to Addis Ababa would be quite remarkable in it's disruptive scope.Gone for a year from the capitol, eh? As it turns out, this is a pattern that becomes all too frequent in the coming years.

The following event hasn’t happened in our RP, and probably won’t, but it speaks volumes about the state of affairs in Ethiopia during these difficult times:Lij Eyasu returned to Addis Ababa with his huge band of new Gimira slaves, and made it known to the council of the realm that he wished to take up residence in the Imperial Palace, and have the invalid Emperor Menelik moved elsewhere. The aquiecent ministers began to make arrangements to move the Emperor to Ankober. The ministers approached Empress Taitu with the plan as "a change of scene for His Imperial Majesty", and asked her for an audience with her to discuss it, and to see the Emperor to certify that he was fit to travel. Taitu was furious, and instructed the commander of the Imperial Guard, Gebre Mariam, to prevent them from entering the Palace. Gebre Mariam took seriously his job to protect the Emperor and vowed to never allow anyone to remove Menelik from his Palace as long as he breathed. Lij Eyasu ordered the Palace with all it's soldiers and servants and royals, completely surrounded by his soldiers and laid under seige. He commanded that only enough food for the Emperor to be let in. The tension between the Imperial Guard and Lij Eyasu's soldiers grew by the second, and on February 8th, 1913, an all out gunbattle broke out. Bullets shattered the windows in the Emperor's room, and the Empress had to take refuge with her catatonic husband and their servants in a basement room while battle raged through the palace grounds. When the Archbishop heard the fighting he rushed to the palace from his home and quickly negotiated a truce. 30 people were dead, and 60 wounded, but the captured Gebre Mariam was not executed as Lij Eyasu would have prefered, but exiled to Gojjam thanks to the promises of the Archbishop which had ended the crisis. Lij Eyasu arrived at the Palace just in time for the Empress to emerge and publicly berate him as an ungrateful grandson who wanted to kill his grandfather and the cause of all the bloodshed. He stood sheepishly as his step-grandmother angrily related how the staff had to carry the Emperor from his bullet riddled room into the basements to protect him. She then imperiously declared that neither she nor the Emperor were going anywhere and stormed back to her rooms. Taitu had won the day.

A sulking Lij Eyasu left the capital almost immediately after the palace fiasco, and stayed away for six months, as he roamed about the country again, and returned then for only a brief stay before again leaving to go stay with his father in Desse. Lij Eyasu returned to Addis Ababa on December 9th, 1913. In the early hours of December 12th, 1913, Emperor Menelik II, the Elect of God, Conquering Lion of Judah, and King of Kings of Ethiopia, the victor of Adwa, died queitly in his sleep.So how old was the boy then?Lij Eyasu decided that he was not ready to be crowned Emperor yet. Athough he was in fact now Emperor Eyasu V, he insisted on being refered to as Abeto Eyasu or Lij Eyasu, or in his more grand moments "Abeto-hoi, Lij Eyasu". The Archbishop also believed that it would perhaps be better to wait till the Prince reached the age of 18 before crowning him.Apparently not 18, then – at least not at the end of 1913.

Wikipedia’s mistakes with respect to Lij Iyasu are not limited to the article you cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyasu_V_of_Ethiopia). It also errs in its article on Menem Asfaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menen_Asfaw), wife of Ras Tafari (later to become the Emperor Haile Selassie):Woizero Menen probably met Dejazmatch Tafari Makonnen at the home of her uncle, Lij Iyasu. The rapport between the two may have inspired Lij Iyasu to attempt to bind Dejazmatch Tafari to him more firmly through marriage ties. He therefore arranged the separation of Woizero Menen from Ras Leul Seged, and sent her to Harrar to marry Dejazmatch Tafari Makonnen. They were married in early August of 1911. Ras Leul Seged apparently did not hold a grudge against Dejazmatch Tafari for this circumstance, blaming it entirely on Lij Iyasu who had ordered it.This event actually took place in 1915In 1915, on the occasion of the birthday of the Sultan of Turkey, Lij Eyasu made a suprise appearance in his capital after yet another extended jaunt around the Empire, and visited the Turkish mission to attend a celebration dinner… He went on to proudly proclaim his own decent from the Prophet Mohammed, and presented the Turkish minister with an Ethiopian flag with the words "Allah is Great, and Mohammed is his Prophet" embroyedered in Arabic where the Lion of Judah would have been. The allied diplomats in Addis Ababa were extremely angered at this overture to the Turks, the nobles who had always seen the Turks as old enemies were furious, and the Orthodox Church hierarchy was scandalized. This unpredictable behaviour of the Emperor-designate, which had at first amused the indulgent people as youthful hot blood, something the young heir would outgrow, was now seen as scandalous, reckless and horrifying… Lij Eyasu's lurid marriage games were not limited to himself. As stated above, a high ranking woman of Imperial blood, Woizero Sakamyelesh was made to marry to his co-hort Tilahun. He also ordered his neice, Woizero Menen Asfaw (daughter of his much loved half-sister Sihin Michael) to divorce her husband, Ras Leul Seged, and marry his royal cousin Dejazmatch Taffari Makonnen as a way of keeping that prince loyal to him.As they say in American politics, what a difference four years makes!

But then again, maybe you (Bogmihia) did pick the right man:He had dreams of expanding his Empire at the expense of the European colonialists that surrounded Ethiopia. He secretly encouraged the rebellion of Somalis in British and Italian Somaliland, sending them weapons in secret, and dreamed of pushing the Italians out of Eritrea. This angered the Europeans who began to secretly incite people against him, and encouraged his enemies.And then, in 1915…In February of 1915 Lij Eyasu marched north and ordered Ras Yimer, Ras Wolde Giorgis, and Wag Shum Gebre Hiwot to join him with their armies and cross the Mereb river and invade Eritrea. The time had come to return Eritrea to her motherland he said. Not everyone was convinced that this was something that could be done, and there were many on both sides who were eager to avoid a confrontation at this time.Note that there was opposition to the planned invasion.

The way in which this invasion was turned back is almost comical (take note, Voxio!)The crafty Afework Gebre Yesus (an Ethiopian acting as Italy’s emissary – NO), knowing Lij Eyasus's weakness, produced a photograph of Princess Jolanda Margherita of Savoy, Princess of Italy (http://www.angelfire.com/ny/ethiocrown/images/jolandesavoy1901-12.jpg), (who would later marry Count Carlo Calvi di Bergolo) and urged the Lij Eyasu to enter into marriage ties with the House of Savoy to cement a new friendship with Italy. It was then that the thought of marriage to an Italian princess was born in Eyasu's mind. He proclaimed himself in love with the Princess, raved about her beauty and goodness, and then ordered his troops back to their homes. He then made what he imagined to be subtle inquiries as to the possibility of asking for the Princesses hand in marriage… His behavior angered his generals and his nobles to no end while causing much gigling and laughter in the diplomatic circles in Addis Ababa as well as among Italian authorities in Asmara and Rome. Having made a fool of his monarch, Afework Gebre Yesus smugly scoffed at Eyasu's lack of sense, and returned to his Italian friends to tell them their colony in Eritrea was safe for the time being, thanks largely to the beauty of Princess Jolanda.Finally, just to dump a little more web evidence on the fire, we will cite a couple more pages.

There’s this one on Hayle Giyorgis (http://www.seleda.com/nov00/mayor.shtml), one of Iyasu’s political allies and – effectively – the city “boss” of Addis Ababa:Within six months Ras Tessema had a stroke and died and the Negadras ( Hayle Giyorgis – NO) focused his attention on the heir to the throne, Lej Iyasu Mikael (still a teenager) and his father Ras Mikael.So in 1911, Iyasu was “still a teenager” (but at least a teenager, so somewhere between 13 and 17 (since 18 was considered an adult in Ethiopia).

Here’s a geneology page (http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Ethiopia/shoa5.htm) that seems to be the source of Wikipedia’s error: it lists his year of birth as 1887, but mentions that he was under the Regency of Ras Tessema until 1911 (which would mean that he had a regent at the age of 24, quite unusual for a competent male heir, don’t you think?). I have no idea of where they got this date, but I treat it as an anamoly, in the same way as I reject the idea that Isayu was born in 1901.

This list of Ethiopia’s rulers (including Regents) (http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Ethiopia.html) lists Iyasu as Regent for his father (formally, Prince Regent), and next to his name states that he was born in 1898 and died in 1935. That would make him 14 in 1912.

This page at Factbites (http://www.factbites.com/topics/Iyasu-V-of-Ethiopia) shows the perils of Googling, in that it is obviously drawn from Wikipedia. I’m finding this an increasing problem, as errors first introduce in the so-called “Open Source Encyclopedia” propagate across the web.

Of course, one of the delightful things about Wikipedia is the way that in contradicts itself. According to its page on Menelik II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menelik_II_of_Ethiopia):In May 1909 the emperor’s grandson Lij Iyasu (or Lij Yasu) by his late daughter Shoaregga, then a lad of thirteen, was married to Romanework Mangasha (b. 1902), granddaughter of the Emperor Johannes IV by his natural son Ras Mangasha, and was also the niece of Empress Taytu. Two days later Yasu was publicly proclaimed at Addis Ababa as Menelek’s successor.So we have one Wikipedia article saying the boy was born in 1887, another claiming that he was 13 in 1909, and yet another stating that he arranged Menem Asfaw’s marriage in 1911. Go figure.

This web site (http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/ethiopia.htm) says: When Menelik II died in 1917 the line of succession was not clear. Menelik II did not have a son and the title of emperor was given to his nephew Lij Iyasu. Lij Iyasu was only thirteen at the time and the real power fell into the hands of Lij Iyasu's father, Ras Mikael.This would suggest at first blush that Iyasu was 13 when his father died, but it erroneously gives the year of Menelik II’s death as 1912. The author has likely confused the date of Menelik II’s death with that of Iyasu’s overthrow and Isayu’s age at his grandfather’s death with his age when proclaimed heir apparent.

There are many, many other references to the lives of these characters (Menelik II, LijIyasu, Ras Tessema, and Ras (or Negus Mikael). Most of them agree that Iyasu was just a teenage boy when his father died, and a pretty wild one at that.

(BTW, I arrived at an age of 15 by simply adding 10 years to Wikipedia’s birthdate, since I figured the person who entered the data made a typo. Now I’m not so sure. What we do know for certain is that he was not yet 18 when his father died (or else he would have been crowned Negus Neguse by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church), and a preponderance of sources say that he was 13 when formally declared to be Menelik II’s heir. I will therefore add a year to his age and call him 16 (but hey, one out-of-control teenager is as bad as another, at any age).

BTW, I’m glad you picked Isayu as your pal; that leaves me the stronger side. Get ready to get your rear end roasted.

Oh, and I still owe you a smackdown over movement and communications rates in East Africa! :D

When did Italy begin sending troops to East Africa and preparing defensive positions along its borders with Ethiopia? In early June (pick a day randomly).


When did Italy first mobilise its forces against France? The day after France issued its ultimatum to Portugal.


When did Italy begin the partial demobilisation of its forces following the end of the Portuguese Crisis? One week after the fall of the Poincaire government.


When did Italy begin to remobilise its forces? On the same day that France began its mobilisation against Germany.


When did Italy issue its ultimatum to France demanding the surrender or Corsica? On the same day Germany demanded the return of Alsace and Lorraine.


When did the King of Italy assign 4 divisions to Prince Umberto? One week after Louis Phillipe, Duc d’Orleans, returned to France and declared himself for the French throne.


When did Italy begin withdrawing troops from East Africa? On the day after the aforementioned 4 divisions were given to Prince Umberto.


When did Italy begin assembling a relief force to be sent to East Africa? Two days after Ethiopia invaded East Africa (IOW, as soon as word arrived that the Ethiopians were invading its East African colonies)


When did Italy begin dispatching troops to Sardinia? One week after the troops were assigned to Prince Umberto, or two days after Ethiopia invaded East Africa (as above), whichever came first.


When did Italy declare war on France? One week after it began sending troops to Corsica.


When did Italy’s fleet put to sea? On the same day as Italy declared war on France.

1. Lets say the 5th.
2. Agreed, though one could say that every time I mobilized more my forces it was with the intention of attacking France or in preparation to defend against France.
3. Agreed, though those forces have been recalled up and are getting additional training.
4. Agreed...though I mobilized the forces in number 3 between the fall of the French Parliment and these latest forces.
5. Agreed
6. Agreed
7. Agreed
8. Agreed
9. Agreed
10. Agreed
11. And Finally, Agreed

<Adjusts righteous smackdown gloves momentarily>Firstly, Lij Iyasu is 25, not 15, at least according to wikipedia. I agree, it's not always 100% accurate, but that's the source I used when I first invented the Ras Iyasu charachter.Already dealt with; the web consensus seems to be that he was 16; indeed, he couldn’t have been any older and was probably younger (if Wikipedia is right about his birthday [February 4th] but wrong about the year [1887], and we consequently assume that he was 16 in the fall of 1912, then he would turn 18 on February 4th, 1914 – just 54 days after his grandfather’s death (on December 12th, 1913). That doesn’t square well with the decision of the Archbishop not to crown him until he reached the age of 18).Secondly, the ranks:..I don’t believe this was a source of disagreement. It is acceptable to translate “Ras” as “Duke”; “Dejazmach”, “Fitawari”, :”Gerazmach”, and “Kenyazmach” as “General”, and “Balambaras” as “Baron” (or “Commander”, if you prefer a military title). “Lij”, of course, is “Prince”.Iyasu is the 'Lij' (child) of Ras Mikael. If his father dies, he becomes (surprise, surprise) Ras Iyasu.Uh, no.

Ethiopian titles were only quasi-hereditary, and so Lij Iyasu is not a Prince because his father, Ras Mikael, is a Duke. He’s a Prince because his mother was Menelik’s daughter, making him a child of royal blood. Why would female inheritance matter? Because this is a lineage (the so-called “Solomonic” dynasty) that maintains that it is directly descended from King Solomon and Queen Sheba. Which one of the two ruled ancient Ethiopia? Take a wild guess…He's the guy in contact with the French consul in Somaliland.Indirectly, sure – why not? But directly? Not on your life. According to a history of Djibouti (http://membres.lycos.fr/soulard/djione.html) that I found, the representative of the Ethiopians in Djibouti was Ato Josef. The French Governor, BTW, was (probably) A.J.J. Bonhoure, although sources differ.

Besides, do you really think a French governor is so d_mn_d important that the future King of Kings and Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah is going to come to him for a meeting?!? Puh-leeze!

Then, too, remember that were talking about a arrogant little twirp who thinks the world revolves around him.Why the hell is he collaborating with the French and not with the Germans and the Turks, as in real life? Because of the Italian threat, of course…That’s feeble, but I’ll let you have it.…(which, by the way, took place IC; just check the post no. 750 - the last on page 50)That’s not a very tangible threat. Preparing defensive works along the frontier? Was constructing the Maginot Line an act of war?

(And it’s not like the Ethiopians are liable to have the verbatim order, about it being “time to prepare for war”. Even if that did, what does that mean? Maybe Italy expects to be attacked!)Before moving on to the military details, I want to clarify the Ras Iyasu character. He was considered pro-Muslim because he had several 'wives' (which I consider only promisquity)…Several wives is not the same as having several lovers; he practiced Muslim-style plural marriage, for God’s sake! Remember, this is an Orthodox Christian country – and has been for over 1500 years. Christians may cheat, but they don’t have multiple wives (Mormons excepted, but Iyasu obviously doesn’t have that excuse)… and entered mosques. On the other hand, he also entered a Roman Catholic church, so that's not a good criterium.I bet he didn’t light up a cigarette right in the middle of prayer at the mosque, though, did he? But he did light up in the middle of Mass (and besides, as the future monarch of an Orthodox country, what the heck was he doing at Mass anyway?!?). It sounds plausible to me that he went to deliberately show disrespect – that would have been in character.After becoming Emperor, his position might become weakend because of this and also because of his 'populist' tendencies of making nobles out of commoners, but for the moment he's not view negatively.You can’t be serious. You can’t be serious. He’s already the talk of the royal court for his carousing, womanising, and his schoolboy antics. You wan’t to bet he wasn’t viewed negatively?This campaign, if succesfull, could also increase his popularity and his subsequent hold on power.Big word, that “if”. Don’t bet the farm on it.Right now, Iyasu is the heir apparent attempting to get a better position through war.That’s plausible.On the Abyssinian side, the only people who have to know about the deal are Iyasu (of course), the regent Ras Tessema Nadew and - maybe - the war minister, Fitawrari Hapte Giorgis Denagde. The others don't have to be told about it.Tessema is dead, so he obviously knows nothing. I would say that his father, Ras Mikael, certainly knows – indeed, without dad’s support, this would simply not be possible. But the rest of the Council of Ministers would have to know – because they’d have to approve the move (Iyasu and his dad weren’t that powerful).They only know that the Italians have left their colonies almost unguarded and it's better to strike now than to wait for them to attack when they'll be better prepared.I think that’s ridiculous, but you can have them think that if you wish. There will be many who think it unwise to provoke Italy, however. And that will get worse as more and more European powers line up behind the Italians in their attempt to keep their colonies.Geography, now… I was talking about Italian Somaliland (being 63 miles deep), not about Eritrea. Secondly, my units were miles (more exactly, leagues transformed into miles), not Kilometres… I wasn't talking out of thin air, I was quoting a site which said the reason for the second Italo-Abyssinian war was the interpretation of the border between Abyssinia and Italian Somalilans, which stipulated that the border is 21 leagues inland.Let’s go to an authoritative source:

U.N Eritrea-Ethiopia Boundary Commission (http://www.un.org/NewLinks/eebcarbitration/)
U.S. State Department IBS No. 154 - Djibouti (DJ) & Ethiopia (ET) 1976 (http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS154.pdf) (PDF)
U.S. State Department IBS No. 153 - Ethiopia (ET) & Somalia (SO) 1978 (http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS153.pdf) (PDF)

On page 4 of IBS No, 153, we find a discussion of the three pre-WWI agreements between Italy and Ethiopia – one in 1897, one in 1908, and one in 1910. None speak of a distance of “21 leagues”; indeed, at no point are distances of any kind mentioned. The sole point of disagreement is on the line between the northern part of Italian Somaliland and the Ogaden; Both nations agreed that the southern end of the border lay at the Wabe-Shabale, but from there Itlay believed that the line ran straight northeast to 8°N 47°E, while Ethiopia believed the line ran straight to 8°N 48°E. IOW, the only point of contention was the location of the so-called “tripoint” of British Somaliland, Italian Somaliland, and Ethiopia.

You can see this clearly on a modern map, because those old colonial claims form the basis for today’s brush-fire wars. Look at this map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/somalia_rel_1992.jpg) produced by the CIA in 1992. At the easternmost corner of Ethiopia, you can see a straight east-west line running exactly 1° of longitude. The Italians believed that the “tripoint” of the three territories lay at the western end of that line, the Ethiopians at the eastern end. This map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/africa_1910.jpg), from the 1912 Edition of the Cambridge Modern History Atlas, shows a somewhat simplified Italian version of the border (before the 1910 adjustment, which was trivial). You can compare that to the CIA map, which reflects the Ethiopian view of things, and readily (if not exactly) judge the difference. Even if we accept the Ethiopian view of the border – which Italy most certainly would not – then the closest point of approach to the sea here is about 115 miles (as the crow flies; unfortunately, armies are not comprised of crows).The Italians claimed it was nautical leagues, while the Abyssinians replied it's foolish to measure distances on land using nautical leagues (a view I share).And, like the Ethiopians, you would be wrong. The only proper way to measure distance when longitude and latitude are involved is in nautical miles, since those are related directly to minutes of arc.

But ultimately, the discussion of where Ethiopia believes the border lies and where Italy believes it lies is pointless: as soon as Ethiopia crosses the border Italy embraces, then Italy will consider that an invasion - and so will the rest of Europe. The Ethiopian perspective matters not one jot.Anyway, the discution about Eritrea is pointless, because Voxio said he's retreating from that colony into Somaliland in the post no. 912.Oh, did he? "Alessandro!"
"Yes sir"
"Take this telagram to the leader of the Eritrea Parliment"
It read:
As I'm sure you are aware, our Abyssinian troops have crossed our
borders. It is only a matter of time before they have taken our
territory. I am afraid Italian troops must withdraw from Eritrea, but
we will return to liberate you. In the meantime I would suggest you
attempt to put together a militia and recruit as many Askari to this
cause, promise them money and land if you must. If the Ialians can
push the Abyssinian's out again we will pay for these troops. You will
be givin small cashe of Italian Mod 91 rifles and what little excess
of ammunition we have. They wont last long, but they will give your
militia a chance.He left behind all his native forces, which – according to my information – number between 8,000 and 10,000 men. Essentially, he (maybe) withdrew a couple of battalions or so.

From what I’ve been able to deduce from the arrangement of Italy’s defences in Eritrea, his native troops, when combined with his permanent fortifications (the ones that were there when we started, in 1910) should be more than sufficient to hold you off until help arrives from Europe. He doesn’t need the Italians, who – as best as I can tell – only numbered a few hundred soldiers to begin with.One last comment about Somalia: it's southern part is wider now because it received a portion of Kenia after WW1 (the Italians were pissed they got so little in the peice treaties after the war). You can see the difference if you compare a pre-WW1 map with a modern one.The second map cited above is, in fact, a pre-WWI map. To adjust the 1992 CIA map, just deduct everything west of the Wabi Jubba. As you can see, this makes no difference. From Dole Odo to the sea, the distance is exactly the same.Now, the military matters.I’ll continue your dismemberment in the next post.

Thank you Voxio. After I finish demolishing Bogie, I’ll get his timeline, add Mexico’s and America’s, and we should be there.

From what I’ve been able to deduce from the arrangement of Italy’s defences in Eritrea, his native troops, when combined with his permanent fortifications (the ones that were there when we started, in 1910) should be more than sufficient to hold you off until help arrives from Europe. He doesn’t need the Italians, who – as best as I can tell – only numbered a few hundred soldiers to begin with.The second map cited above is, in fact, a pre-WWI map. To adjust the 1992 CIA map, just deduct everything west of the Wabi Jubba. As you can see, this makes no difference. From Dole Odo to the sea, the distance is exactly the same.I’ll continue your dismemberment in the next post.
Yes, they were origionally less than 300 Italians, the rest would have been people in the Colony. Though I added quite a few.

I was going to save this for an RP, but since I don't have time I'll just post it. Those troops never managed to leave the colony, so there is about 10k Italian troops holding the port city of Massawa in addition to the native forces [which have been augmented by what should be around 5k troops who have been given very basic firearms training and a rifle as a last resort. I left these under the control of the Native "Government".

If I can make some time I'll put up an RP, we had to push the game back by a day, so I could have a little extra time to RP.

That's the longest post I ever made. I'm exhausted. And all might be in vain if you can proove me one of two things: that Iyasu is actually 15; or that it really takes 5 months to get to the borders of Abyssinia. if either of these is true, then the war didn't even start and will not start.
I think that, after all this time, I got to know you quite well. I could have bet you'd stay silent on that matter for a few days and then come with a devastanting answer.

Since I started from a wrong premise, the war between Abyssinia and Italy is now history before even beginning. Let's say the initial contacts between the French governor and the Abyssinians have been through the abassador Ato Josef. France sold Djibouti to the Ethiopians and left them the weapons, but nothing more.

I'll accept the timeline as it was presented initially. The only changes would have to be in the last few lines, basically ignoring the line about the Abyssinian invasion on September 6 ("Ethiopians begin invasion of Eritrea and Somalia") and the one about Italy's response ("Italy begins mobilising 90,000 men for East African war").

About the war in the Mediteranean now. Please tell me the status of my fleet. Have all the troops been transported to Corsica? From the timeline I see they have, from Voxio's IC post I see they haven't. Tell me what's the situation and I'll accept it.

Finally, since you control Mexico, you'll have to come up with an answer to the situation developing in the Gulf of Arcachon (but I'm sure you know that).

Oh, it will start. Just not as fast as you would have liked – which was my point all along (when I started my complaints about the timeline in the first place).

I’ll hold off on a discussion of transportation and communication in East Africa until later. In my next post, we’ll finish the timeline, then the fleets, and then we can start.

You could stretch your legs a spell and address the elections and the issue of monarchy – there are, after all, something like six declared pretenders to the French throne who have messed up the coming elections. Poincaire will still win, but not by a majority. Or you can RP fighting on the ground near Bordeaux or in the Alps.

Excuse me, but a while back I was tolf there was somne stuff in the Japanese war that i needed to respond to, but I forgot what it was.

Excuse me, but a while back I was tolf there was somne stuff in the Japanese war that i needed to respond to, but I forgot what it was.

Well, generally there's a war going on and we need a British response ;)

*swears he will burst in tears if Britain declares war on Japan*

*Sends Latiatis a telegram, offering him parts of Japan once the war is over*
Muhahaha!

It is now Boghimia’s turn.

Let’s start with Roumania. When we originally finished the Balkan Wars RP thread, we did not know that Germany had begun a General Mobilisation that could have led to a continent-wide war. Since the Allies (Germany, the Dual Monarchy, Greece, and the Bulgarian Nationalists) would have presented their offer to parley to Roumania on August 3rd – two days after German mobilisation and (presumably) the day after France responded in kind, it occurs to me that Roumania might have wanted to adopt a “wait and see” attitude. After all, if Russia went to war with the Dual Monarchy, then that would change everything, no?

Once a settlement was reached, of course, Roumania would want to settle matters in the Balkans as well. I figure that Romanian agreement to parley comes the day after the triggering event. Then the Romanians need two days to digest the fact that Prince Boris is alive and decided what to do next. The final negotiations take a day or two (depending on how much give and take is involved.

I figure the Romanians would begin their withdrawal the day after an agreement was reached, and that this withdrawal would take 10 days. After that, Roumania could demobilise, and this would be recommended in order to get the men back home in time to bring in the harvest.

So here are the questions for Roumania: When did Roumania accept the Allies’ offer to engage in talks? The next day, or the day after the Treaty of Vienna is signed (at Boghimia’s option).


Once it is discovered that Prince Boris is alive (on the first day of negotiations), Roumania requests a recess to discuss matters. When does Roumania return to the table? Two days later.


When is a final settlement reached? On the same day as talks resume, or the day after that (at Boghimia’s option).


When do Romanian troops begin their withdrawal? The day after a settlement is reached.


When is this withdrawal completed? 10 days after the withdrawal begins.


When does Roumania begin demobilisation? The day after its withdrawal from Bulgaria has been completed.Now on to France.

France initially agreed to become a member of the Grand Alliance, and then withdrew. I am going to presume that this came about after the fall of the Caillaux Ministry (V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Caillaux) on January 21st, 1912. Caillaux was a member of the so-called “Peace Party”, as opposed to Poincaire, who was a member of the so-called “War Party”; he appears to have become Prime Minister following the resignation of Ernst Monis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Monis), who was injured in a tragic accident at the 1911 Paris Air Show, in which his Minister of War, Maurice Berteaux, was killed. Monis, in turn, had just taken over from Aristide Briand ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristide_Briand) in March, 1911. It would have been Briand (a Radical) who agreed to join the Grand Alliance in exchange for the return of Alsace and Lorraine.

Cailleaux was known as a man who sought conciliation with Germany, unlike Poincaire, who wanted revanche. With his fall (probably due to a scandale os some sort (there were so many of them in the Third Republic), would have opened the door to a new government intent on flexing France’s muscles.

After that came the three crises that so alienated the rest of Europe. Granted, this gives us only six months for three crises, but that should be enough. After the Portuguese Crisis would have come France’s attempts at alliance with Britain, Italy, and Russia, followed by the Franco-German Crisis over Alsace and Lorraine.

Once mobilisation began, France would be free to deploy its fleet as it wished (save for reserve units), but its army could not have been significantly redeployed until mobilisation was completed, 15 days after it started. Then we would have had the mad dash to war, which brings us to the current day.

With that, let’s dive in: When did France attempt to annex Switzerland? Sometime in March or April (pick a date, but preferably late enough in the year that the lower valleys and passes are not completely snowbound).


When did France stage “military exercises” along the Belgian border, provoking the rest of Europe to threaten action (this crisis probably took about a week to resolve). Sometime in May (pick a date, allowing at least a week from the end of the Swiss crisis [which was over in a day or two]).


When did France deliver an ultimatum to Portugal, demanding its surrender? Sometime in June (pick a date, allowing at least two weeks from the end of the Belgian crisis).


How long after the delivery of France’s ultimatum to Portugal did workers clash with police in protests outside arms factories near Paris? The following day.


When did trade union leaders call for a General Strike? The day after workers clashed with police; the strike was staged the following day.


When did the General Strike end? It lasted one day.


When did the Poincaire Ministry fall? Three days after the General Strike. Poincaire submitted his resignation that evening, but was asked to stay on as an interim Prime Minister until elections could be held.


When were elections scheduled? 60 days after the Poincaire Ministry fell (NOTE: The calendar should be arranged so that this date falls at least three weeks after the signing of the Treaty of Vienna, to allow the monarchists time to get involved in the political process).


When did France mobilise? The day after Germany mobilised.


When did France accept the proposal made by the Dual Monarchy and Russia (which became the Treaty of Vienna)? On the same day that it was offered (thanks to Poincaire’s shooting, the French Ambassador was granted plenipotentiary powers).


When did France begin its withdrawal from Alsace and Lorraine? On the 15th day after mobilisation – the soonest day withdrawal could occur (it could occur later, but it would have to be completed by the 30th day after the Treaty of Vienna was signed).


When did France complete its withdrawal from Alsace and Lorraine? Four days after it began – the shortest length of time possible (it could have taken longer, but it would have to be completed by the 30th day after the Treaty of Vienna was signed).


When did France formally surrender Alsace and Lorraine? As soon as the last troops were gone (it could happen later, but it would have to happen by the 30th day after the Treaty of Vienna was signed).


When did France approach Ethiopia with its plan to trade the Somali Coast Colony for an attack on Italy? Five days after Italy began transferring troops from Eritrea back to Italy, but given France’s earlier threats toward France if the latter wouldn’t agree to a secret alliance, this offer could have actually been tendered anytime after January 22nd.


When did France order its officers in Morocco to organise guerrilla warfare against Spain in Morocco? Three days after Spain declared that it would annex Morocco (or establish a protectorate over it), or two days after Spain invaded Morocco, whichever came first.


When did France send its XIX Corps (based in Algiers) to the Algerian-Moroccan frontier? The day after Spain declared that it would annex Morocco (or establish a protectorate over it), so long as this is not before the 15th day after French mobilisation begins (if it is, the event occurs when mobilisation is completed).


When did France transfer VI Corps (normally quartered at Chalons-sûr-Marne) from the Northeastern Frontier (facing Germany) to the Southeastern Frontier (facing Italy)? The day after France learned that Italian troops were being sent to Sardinia or the 15th day after mobilisation was completed, whichever came later (see below).


When did VI Corps relieve VII Corps (normally quartered at Besançon)? On the fourth day after it left the Northeastern Frontier, unless VII Corps was being held in reserve (in which case VI Corps is now held in reserve, in place of VII Corps), in which case it would take only three days.


When did VII Corps reach Toulon? Two days after it left, unless it was being held in reserve (see above), in which case it would take only one day.


When did VII Corps begin departing for Corsica? The day after it arrived in Toulon.


When did the first elements of VII Corps arrive in Corsica? On the evening of the day after it departed. The arrival of the remaining elements depends on the availability of transport.


When did the French fleet take up positions in the Straits of Bonifaccio (between Sardinia and Corsica)? The morning after the last troops of the VII Corps arrive on Corsica.


When did the French fleet sortie from Cherbourg (to attack the Mexican fleet in the Bay of Biscay)? On the afternoon of the day Mexico invaded Acquitaine.


When did the French fleet arrive off Arcachon? On the day after the Mexican invasion began.


When did France offer to sell French Indochina to Japan? On the day after Japan threatened to invade the territory.


When was the sale of French Indochina finalised? Three to five days after the offer to sell was made (depending on what Japan and France can agree to; if they can’t agree, then the date is Japan’s choice).


When did French forces begin withdrawing from French Indochina? As soon as Japan threatened invasion, although enough would need to remain behind to maintain control until the Japanese arrived; then the rest could leave.


Where did the French forces leaving Indochina go? To Madagascar (the safest nearby location).


When did France abandon the Somali Coast Colony? The day after Ethiopia invaded Eritrea (the closer colony)?As with everyone else, the answers in red are my guesses. You can agree by typing “agreed”, or provide an alternate date. Answers can be relative to other people’s actions, but this should be minimised to avoid deadlock. All answers should be accurate enough that we can determine when the event occurred to the day.

You will note that there are two ambiguities in the above answers that need to be resolved: When does France learn that Italy is sending troops to Sardinia?


How long does it take to transport VII Corps (in its entirety) to Corsica?The former question can only be answered once we know how France learned of this move. Obviously, the Italians didn’t tell them they were reinforcing Sardinia, so how did the French know this was happening?

The best guess would be a spy at one of the seaports where Italy was embarking its troops. But how would this confederate relay the information to France without the benefit of radio or a telegraph office (“Excuse me, but I’d like to send a message to Paris. Yes, Paris. It reads ‘Italian troops seen departing Naples for Sardinia.” That’s all. Thanks, yes, I’ll wait...’” ). Does the spy have a friend who owns a fishing boat (and one that can be taken to France without suspicion)? Does the spy send a message through a courier, who travels by rail to Switzerland and thence to France? Only after we know how word got to the French government can we determine when VI Corps departs for the Alps to begin the process of reinforcing Corsica.

With regards to the latter question, there are two factors: How many transports are available?


Where are the troops landing?I’ve revised my estimate of the number of men who can travel on a merchant (but not on the deck of a warship). An average-sized 3,000t (ocean-going) merchant can carry 2,000 men (a smaller coaster can still only carry 500 men), guns and horses not included. A French division numbers about 16,000 infantry (I think; some sources say 12,000), so that would mean 8 ships for the infantry alone. Each division has 6 batteries of artillery (which require two more ships), a squadron of cavalry (which requires another ship), and a baggage train (that requires 2-3 more ships). Three divisions make a corps, which has its own added artillery, cavalry, light infantry, and baggage. Call that 6-8 more ships, so the whole force will require between 45 and 50 merchant ships. I figure that – in a pinch – France could scrape up a dozen ships quickly at Marseilles; a larger flotilla would take more time.

That means four troop convoys. Throw some of the infantry onto the decks of warships, and you could probably cut that down to three (and possibly two, especially if you’re willing to leave things behind (like baggage).

The other problem is determining where your troops land. The logical place is Ajaccio, the largest port. Other ports are available, but being smaller and shallower may take more effort (meaning time) to use. You should determine how many troops are going to Ajaccio, and how many (if any) are going to other ports. Only then can I guess how long the entire move will take to complete.

*Sends Latiatis a telegram, offering him parts of Japan once the war is over*
Muhahaha!

*Sends Latiatis a TG, offering German Colonial Possesions and other profitable deals once the war is over*

Muhahahaha!

Japan has only been defeated once in history, and in this RP, it has never been beaten!

*Sends Latiatis a TG, offering German Colonial Possesions and other profitable deals once the war is over*

Muhahahaha!

Japan has only been defeated once in history, and in this RP, it has never been beaten!
OTOH you did have the Songoku Jidai, and you were forced to open your borders to the rest of the world by the USA.

OTOH you did have the Songoku Jidai, and you were forced to open your borders to the rest of the world by the USA.

Meh, that was just like the Thirty Year war in Germany, only a little longer ;)

That was indeed a defeat, though a diplomatic one. And we kicked you out of japan barely twenty years later, so...

But actually I'm planning that Fukuoka gets an heartattack. I mean, all those violent moods can't be very good at his age. Does anyone mind if I put a somewhat more moderate (but still very nationalistic. Compare him to Teddy Roosevelt). Anyway, read the main RP thread...

Meh, that was just like the Thirty Year war in Germany, only a little longer ;)

That was indeed a defeat, though a diplomatic one. And we kicked you out of japan barely twenty years later, so...
Sengoku Jidai compared with the Thirty Year War in Germany is like a shoolyard fight compared with WWII.

Sengoku Jidai compared with the Thirty Year War in Germany is like a shoolyard fight compared with WWII.

We Japanese like doing things grand. We had armies of hundreds of thousands fighting each other, you silly Europeans thought 30000 men were a lot. And those were all mercenaries with no honour! (one thing the Japanese despised most, mercenaries...) And ofcourse, we fought for hundreds of years. But what would Japan be without the Sengoku Jidai?

Thirt thousand men are a lot, if they're armed with firearms insyead of wakizashis and katanas. A yari isn't much good against man with a rifle, now is it?

Ok, guys, am I still the Sublim e Porte, ever though I didn't have access to a computer in 3 weeks? And if I am still allowed to play in this thread, can someone explain to me where we are at in the course of history.

I can already tell you, the last time i got on, i had worked hard to make a well-funded air-force and diminished the number of cavalry regiments in the Porte, to try to make my armies more modern. I believe by now, I have a fully functioning air-force and modern infantry (with standard; not traditional uniforms, armed with german mauser rifles). Under development in Ankara, is the failed german machinepistol project, lighter airplane engines, and more accurate Krupps gun barrel. So that sums up my last actions before my inactivity.

My soilders look like this:
http://www.cilicia.com/morgenthau/images/Morgen28.jpg

My planes look like this:
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/images/caudron_g-4.jpg

Ok, guys, am I still the Sublim e Porte, ever though I didn't have access to a computer in 3 weeks? And if I am still allowed to play in this thread, can someone explain to me where we are at in the course of history.

I can already tell you, the last time i got on, i had worked hard to make a well-funded air-force and diminished the number of cavalry regiments in the Porte, to try to make my armies more modern. I believe by now, I have a fully functioning air-force and modern infantry (with standard; not traditional uniforms, armed with german mauser rifles). Under development in Ankara, is the failed german machinepistol project, lighter airplane engines, and more accurate Krupps gun barrel. So that sums up my last actions before my inactivity.

My soilders look like this:
http://www.cilicia.com/morgenthau/images/Morgen28.jpg

My planes look like this:
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/images/caudron_g-4.jpgYou're still in the game. We'll have to look at the rest.

I doubt I will involve myself with this war. However, I will not ally with Japan if I do since I would be fighting several of my allies in the European war. That doesn't work out well.

Though if my allies absolutely can't live without my help [I'll judge when] I may join them...but I don't really want Japanese land and I don't exactly want to crush Japan's Empire.

Hey, where did my quote go? ;.; Oh well.

OCC: Before I go ahead with my plans with Norway I do wish to clarify whether or not my actions can be considered as "Godmodding." The reason I bring this up is because I have been RPing the figures of a foriegn country and I do intend (so long as no one claims Norway in the future) to essintially control the direction of this revolution and the eventual absorbsion of Norway back into Sweden.

Any comments would be apprieciated.

This next war, I will undoubtedly back up Germany, The Dual Monarchy in any conflict. And also, I encourage the Japanese expansion in the Orient and Italies medeterrainina interests

I doubt I will involve myself with this war. However, I will not ally with Japan if I do since I would be fighting several of my allies in the European war. That doesn't work out well.

Though if my allies absolutely can't live without my help [I'll judge when] I may join them...but I don't really want Japanese land and I don't exactly want to crush Japan's Empire.Eek. That's an ugly color. Go back to purple!

To-Do List: Finish timeline. Waiting on Boghimia’s answer to questionnaire


Finish fleet lists:


France.


Mexico Need to reconstruct the history of Mexico from 1867-1910 (half done)


Finish lead-in story to “The Lion of Judah RP Thread” and post to begin the thread. Waiting for timeline.


Write lead-in story to “State of Siege RP Thread” and post to begin thread.


Write opening post of “State of Siege OOC Thread”.


Update “Age of Imperialism Timeline Thread”. Waiting for timeline.


Add summary and synopsis of “Balkan Wars” sub-campaign to “Age of Imperialism Timeline Thread”. Waiting for timeline.


Post Mexican response to Arcachon Bay fleet action. Waiting for fleet reconstruction.


Bring The Andromedan up to speed on “Lawrence of Moravia” sub-campaign.Think I have enough on my plate? ;)

FYI, “Lawrence of Moravia” is (as some of you may already know) the Habsburg and Osmanli campaign against the House of Sa’ud, “The Lion of Judah” is the Ethiopian War campaign, and I’ve chosen “State of Siege” for the war against France (in the days before WWI, the heightened state of alert and internal security put in place within France by an order of General Mobilisation was formally called a “state of siege”). I haven’t come up with a name for the pending Mexican-American War (though “Mr. Roosevelt’s War” sounds good...)

Eek. That's an ugly color. Go back to purple!
Sorry, was supoposed to be purple...but I sometimes hit the wrong color on the dropdown list. I'm used to posting on other boards with a dropdown list instead of what this board has. I too find the color orange utterly disgusting.

My point was however that I do not intend to enter this war, though I wish it had happened later as I may have been willing to take part.

:mad: I had answerd all the questions but I got an 'invalid thread' reply. Now I have to start all over again.

Romania

1) The next day

2) ok

3) Day after

4-6) ok

Don't worry about Romania declaring war. We have a NAP. I believe that, in the long run, it's better to lose some momentary advantage, but to be considered a man who keeps his word.

France

1) April 1st :D

2) May 4th

3) June 11th

4-7) ok

8) Late September, maybe October. the elections can also take place 90 days after the fall of the Poincare Ministry, if you want to give more chances to the Monarchists.

9-21) ok

22) ok, if the Italians haven't already declared war. If they have, the troops still on the mainland are sent back in the Alps, probably attached to VI Corps. The fleet will be deployed as fast as possible between the two islands, with reconnaissance ships on the East and West.

23-25) ok

26) 4 days after

27-28) ok

29) If you bring evidence the war can't start so fast, my actions in Djibouti may change depending on the date the war starts and the evolution of the French-Italian relations in the intervening time.

The ambiguities:

1) ok. An agent in Naples, let's say, who sends the news through somebody owning a boat or through somebody embarked on a passanger ship to Southern France (whichever is faster).

2) The troops are transported with the merchant ships, some infantry on the warships => 3 transports. The smaller ships might be sent to the minor, shallower ports, as long as the ports' capacity is not exceeded.

---------------------------

I was going to save this for an RP, but since I don't have time I'll just post it. Those troops never managed to leave the colony, so there is about 10k Italian troops holding the port city of Massawa in addition to the native forces [which have been augmented by what should be around 5k troops who have been given very basic firearms training and a rifle as a last resort. I left these under the control of the Native "Government".
Are you saying you still have 10 000 white troops in Eritrea? And why didn't they manage to leave the colony? What stopped them?

Thanks for a speedy answer, Boghimia.

The Balkan Wars timeline ends like this:

August 2nd, 1912: Prince Boris reaches Allied HQ south of Sofia shortly after sunset.August 3rd, 1912: Allies offer to begin direct talks with Roumania and Bulgarian Unionists.August 4th, 1912: Roumania and Bulgarian Unionists accept Allied offer to negotiate.August 6th, 1912: Direct negotiations begin; Roumania and Bulgarian Unionists discover that Prince Boris is alive and ask for a recess to discuss this development.August 8th, 1912: Direct talks resume; Roumania and Bulgarian Unionists drop demand for recognition of a United Kingdom of Bulgaria and Roumania and agree to the separation of the two countries, but reject calls for unconditional withdrawal; talks to resume on the morrow between Roumania and the two Bulgarian factions only.August 9th, 1912:
Settlement reached: Roumania to withdraw but keep Ruse and Varna; Prince Boris to be recognised as Tsar of Bulgaria; Bulgaria to pay indemnity to Roumania and grant full amnesty to Bulgarian Unionists.August 10th, 1912: Romanian troops begin withdrawal from Bulgaria.August 19th, 1912: Last Romanian troops leave Bulgaria just before nightfall.A couple of comments: I neglected to ask you to confirm when negotiations actually began (just when you agreed to begin talks). My take on this question (reflected in the timeline above) is that the talks would begin two days after Roumania announced its willingness to talk; the delay would be for Roumania and the Bulgarian Unionists to decide upon an initial negotiating position. Of course, this position goes out the window as soon as it is learned that Boris is alive, which is why they need a day’s recess before resuming talks.


You didn’t say if you agreed that the withdrawal would take 10 days; I take that to mean you agree. I did not, however, set a date for your demobilisation. Since that affects the Dual Monarchy’s troop deployments, please post that event to the Balkan Wars RP thread ( http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434313&page=20&pp=15).I will now add a summary of the Balkan Wars to the Timeline thread.

---------------------------


Are you saying you still have 10 000 white troops in Eritrea? And why didn't they manage to leave the colony? What stopped them?
Lack or transportation. I wanted it to be a surprise though. ;.;

Can someone tell me whats going on now, and will I be in this "State of Seige" thread?
And because I think that Voxio's "post everything in only one color idea" is really cool, i'll post everything in blue.
Viva la Voxio, Viva la Italia

P.S. what other countries have significant air power? In any war, I want to know how my OS-1 fwill fare against other plane designs.

Can someone tell me whats going on now, and will I be in this "State of Seige" thread?
And because I think that Voxio's "post everything in only one color idea" is really cool, i'll post everything in blue.
Viva la Voxio, Viva la Italia.
Lol

P.S. what other countries have significant air power? In any war, I want to know how my OS-1 fwill fare against other plane designs.
Italy was a pioneer in the Bomber industry, though their normal airplanes weren't all that abnormal for the time. Russia also had bombers early [about the time of Italy]. From what I understand, Russia was pretty aircraft oriented up until the revolution.

I'm not sure if Germany had airplanes, but they had the Zeppelins. And as I understand, Britain began to use airplanes more often than others durring WWI.

Lack or transportation. I wanted it to be a surprise though. ;.;
So when the Italian governrment ordered his troops back to Italy, they didn't provide a means of transportation? It looks like a pretty inefficient governement to me. We'll have to settle this at the proper time. Until then, I'll refrain from further discussing the matter.

So when the Italian governrment ordered his troops back to Italy, they didn't provide a means of transportation? It looks like a pretty inefficient governement to me. We'll have to settle this at the proper time. Until then, I'll refrain from further discussing the matter.
Those troops made it back, however, the troops that were ment to leave Eritrea for Samaliland did not have the transportation abaliable to leave, they have been forced to hold up in Massawa and the surrounding land until the transportation arived.

It isn't exactly that the government is inefficient, it's that everything in the area was in use transporting troops back to Italy.

I'll touch on all this more when the RP thread for this war opens up.

I would like to respectfully withdraw from being Siam in the intersts of remaining to be Brazil.

I would like to respectfully withdraw from being Siam in the intersts of remaining to be Brazil.

It's ok, just RP something.

I would like to respectfully withdraw from being Siam in the intersts of remaining to be Brazil.I always wondered why you wanted Siam. I had RP'ed Siam to the point where it would become a Japanese puppet (and soon I'm going to ask WE to return the favour, but not quite yet). Brazil (or Brasil, as I prefer to call it) is a much better country; in fact, I'm surprised at the lack of interest in the affairs of the so-called "ABC" powers.

Well, I guess if nobody is going to RP the arabians or the rebels in Mecca, we'll just say that the fighting died down. That OK??

If that's the case, I move my 8th expeditionary to the Russian border, and the 9th to meet up with the 5th in Jeruselam, the 4th will still stay in Baghdad.

`Hmmm, you made me quite curious about the favour thing...:D

What year are you guys in and is france and america really still open?

What year are you guys in and is france and america really still open?

We're currently in 1912 and France and America are both open. France is pretty much at war with everyone save the US and Japan. The US is very friendly with France and Japan is very busy in China...

Hope you're interested, I saw the E20 thread so...

Yeah, and also, basically don't mess with the Balkans and Middleast, because you might get 3-way buttraped.

Ill take the USA and can you give me a link to the french war? Also Ill post a factbook later ive got a Cross Country banquet to go to.

We're currently in 1912 and France and America are both open. France is pretty much at war with everyone save the US and Japan. The US is very friendly with France and Japan is very busy in China...

Hope you're interested, I saw the E20 thread so...
Also, it should be pointed out that America pretty much declared war on Mexico and is allied to France...so probably going to go to war with *cough*
Italy
Britain
Mexico
Spain
Germany
and Austria-Hungary

The above countries also happen to be allied to Mexico.

Great! You had experience from the E20 thread so...

Narodna Odbrana had Rped the US up to now because we didn't had a US but it still played a major role in things so...I thought he had some plans so you shoudl TG him.

Actually now that the US' position has been explained I may change my country. Gotta think about it but Ill be back soon.

How about Portugal?

Yugoslavia? can anyone tell me what is open in europe?

How about Portugal?
Portugal is open, but do you really want that? It’s pretty weak at this point in time, though it does have a small empire left.

Yugoslavia is part of Austria-Hungary.

Here’s a list of parts of Europe that I think are open:
Russia
Portugal
Netherlands
Belgium


Pretty much all of South America is open though.

OCC: Alright, since no one has replied to my question pertaining to Norway, I guess my actions are deemed as legitamite.

Thus, tommorow morning, I shall ignite that Norwegian Revoultion and begin to move Swedish soldiers into the country.

Any final objections?

How about Colombia? Thats a good country and they have a great economy. Ill take Colombia.

How about Colombia? Thats a good country and they have a great economy. Ill take Colombia.
Good luck! Remember you have oil (and that Venezuela also has).

OCC: Alright, since no one has replied to my question pertaining to Norway, I guess my actions are deemed as legitamite.

Thus, tommorow morning, I shall ignite that Norwegian Revoultion and begin to move Swedish soldiers into the country.

Any final objections?
No, none at all. I'm happy to see those countries united and wish you luck.

Welcome to the game Philanchez, I hope you stay active.

Indeed welcome to the game Pilanchez! And ggod lcuk with crushing the Norwegian Rebellion ;)

Que?! Norwegian rebellion?! wtf man, wtf?!

that last bit was for Lachenburg, who's currently very busy with some kind of conspiracy...

OK. Um i cant find much information on Colombia at this time. Can I just start RPing and work on the factbook later?

It's ok, I don't expect you starting a war now, so...

And Narodna is our sort of war moderator and tech specialist. He knows a lot. I'm sure he'll help you.

These campaign threads are now ready for use:

State of Siege - RP Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=453096)
State of Siege - OOC Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9903551)

“State of Siege” is the title I’m giving to the war against France (a/k/a the Western European theatre of the Great War of 1912).

The Grand Alliance seems to be living up to its name ;)

OOC: Check the emerging State of Siege timeline (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9903691&postcount=2); as you will see, I took the liberty of pushing the implementation of France's first income tax up a year, so you might want to revisit that part of your post (or at least the amount).

Good move on the West African conscripts (have you looked at web sources to see how that actually went?). Of course, you know that it will take time to raise all those men: West Africa is still pretty empty and undeveloped at this point in time (still is, for the most part).

OOC: Check the emerging State of Siege timeline (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9903691&postcount=2); as you will see, I took the liberty of pushing the implementation of France's first income tax up a year, so you might want to revisit that part of your post (or at least the amount).

Good move on the West African conscripts (have you looked at web sources to see how that actually went?).
About 200 000 West Africans fought on France's side on the Western Front in WW1. They were recruited in several steps, about 50 000 each time. In the beginning, they were called in the army like any French conscript, without any incentives offered. Because of this, when the last round of recruiting came, the Governor General of Dakar feared a revolt and threatened to resign. Blaise Daigne, a Senegalese elected in the National Assembly, used his prestige to urge the people to join the army, seeing an oportunity for the Africans to improove their conditions. He was also helped by the incentives announced by the French - basically the measures announced in my IC post. Overall, this was the most succesfull recruitement: instead of 50 000, 60 000 people were recruited.

In 1914, there were 14 000 tirailleurs sénégalais in West Africa and 15 000 in the rest of the colonies, the great majority in Morocco. The operation in Morocco, however, had begun in 1912, before September 6, because I stumbled upon a citation intitled: "Journal des marches et opérations de la 2ème batterie du 1er Régiment d’Artillerie de Montagne pour la période du 6 septembre 1912 au 16 octobre 1913" écrit par Ch. Mangin à Kasba Tadla,le 13 juin 1913. This makes me believe the West Africans were sent to North Africa since the summer of 1912, because colonel Mangin was leading black troops.

The expression "Force noire" is actually the title of a book from the early 1900's in which Charles Mangin was advocating the extensive use of black soldiers as a means of compensating the French numerical inferiority compared with the Germans.

Anyway, the Spanish should be very busy fighting Berber rebellions right now, because the tirailleurs sénégalais represented only about 15% (IIRC) of the number of soldiers sent to defeat the Moroccan rebels after the official French annexation (I may be wrong here, though. Maybe what I remember is 15% Blacks fighting in Indochina).

Of course, you know that it will take time to raise all those men: West Africa is still pretty empty and undeveloped at this point in time (still is, for the most part
I expected to have them ready by next year at the latest. I hope it's a realistic estimate.

Edit: The Caillaux affair (or at least his wife's trial) took place in July 1914. IIRC, she was aquited the day the Dual Monarchy declared war on Serbia. :) I think you adjusted the chronology because of the changes taking place in France. I really gotta go now.

Ok, am I still the Ottoman Empire. If I am, can I change to Switzerland please. The Sublime Porte is just tooooooo much for me. I really don't think I'm a good enough RP'er to be the Ottoman Empire.

BTW Narodna Odbrana, you gotta watch Gallipoli the movie. It's really powerful and I think you would really like it. :p

Saw it years ago, and I agree.

I think our RP is dead, but you never know...

I've been looking for this one!

Assuming we actually can ge tthe attention of the other goys, should we pick up where we left or assume that it's been two very quiet years?

DEAD?!?!?!?!?!?!

Oh crap.
Well, I guess I could always play as the 9 terrritories I have in Earth 2......

But, in case the RP is still going, can I play as Switzerland?

I think a restart should be good. And if you wanna play as Switzerland, go ahead. I hope we can get (almost) every major nation RPed by a player.

Sorry about this, but I used to be the player The Andromedan that played the Sublime Porte and now plays Switerland. I sold my old country on Nationstates.net to a person for 10 bucks (what a deal!!!) and now I needed to make a new nation. My new name is Novaya Canadia, as you can see. So just can you change the Switerland to be played by Novaya Canadia instead of The Andromedan.

If you need further proof that I am the Andromedan, I was the guy who is from east Bosnia, and first tried to play Bosnia in this. In one of my first posts I explained this. And something that only I would know, is that I made an aricrat program when I played as the Ottomans and the first planes was called the OS-1 using Italian Designs that they gave me is exchange from Tripoli, they also gave my 2 battle cruisers, that I modified and put into the Turkish Navy.

Wow, I never knew you could sell NS nations:eek:

We're busy with a restart. I've TGed Narodna, Relative Liberty and I think also to you. Anyways, I'm trying to work it out via mail.

If you have suggestions or comments, mail me.

So far I propose to set the RP in early 1914. It is easier to find information for most nations in 1914 than in 1910. I also thought up some other stuff which is on my other computer so...

Sorry about this, but I used to be the player The Andromedan that played the Sublime Porte and now plays Switerland. I sold my old country on Nationstates.net to a person for 10 bucks (what a deal!!!) and now I needed to make a new nation. My new name is Novaya Canadia, as you can see. So just can you change the Switerland to be played by Novaya Canadia instead of The Andromedan.

If you need further proof that I am the Andromedan, I was the guy who is from east Bosnia, and first tried to play Bosnia in this. In one of my first posts I explained this. And something that only I would know, is that I made an aricrat program when I played as the Ottomans and the first planes was called the OS-1 using Italian Designs that they gave me is exchange from Tripoli, they also gave my 2 battle cruisers, that I modified and put into the Turkish Navy.

Sorry about that, the kid thought the game was gay, so he wanted his money back,
LOL
so it's just same old me now

BTW: NA, I moved to your region today, because my political views were not accepted.:rolleyes:

We should have a new thread too, this one has way too much stuff on it.

So, is this going to be restarted? And if so, would this be during the same time period?

If it does restart I don't think I'll be Italy, I don't like having to deal with so much Naval combat.