Operation: Everest OOC Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Omz222

15-12-2003, 04:46

About the missiles.

I told you I was really ready to degrade the number. That many just seems like a lot, actually, way too much. And you are now saying, "NO CRAP!" Yeah, well, I saw that the B-2 could carry 16 missiles, and am not sure why I put 20. Again, this was pretty late last night. Just, try a reasonable estimate on what the cargo would be able to be. The TR-2 carries 1.5x the number of bombs the B-2 can hold. After all, you guys did really lower the stuff you wacked at the Hon with.

Not really. I was sort of under the impression that you could lower the numbers if we don't feel comfortable with it :P Anyways, understood.

About the Gatos, I'll see how it would go. I have quite a few unused air-dropped torpedoes and anti-submarine rockets :twisted:

15-12-2003, 04:51

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Omz222

15-12-2003, 04:59

Ever seen Down Periscope with Kelsy Grammar (sp?)? Take all that, multiply it times fifty, and bam! You have what we are sending. And yes, there is a chick on each one!

Hmm, nope. But I'll keep that in my mind ("there is a chick on each one").

Would (500) SCMs be okay? Something around that vicinity? And for being unomfortable with the numbers, [b]I[/i] was the one probably unformfortable with the numbers. Leveling a city with SCMs just isn't- fun.

Actually, it depends on the numbers of each kind of bomber sent, plus how many one bomber can carry. If you can have the capability to carry them all -- good for you.

15-12-2003, 05:06

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Omz222

15-12-2003, 05:10

What did I think of last night...

(20) B-2
(24) TR-2
(24) F-117D

I am willing to do anything at the moment. Take big losses, have plenty of the missiles shot down, and whatnot. Just make some suggestions. I can change the missiles from being G2s to being RX7s, if you wish.
Well, frankly because I don't want this RP to be "you must please me and show me that you are inferior to have me taking reasonable losses", I'd say that I will also take good losses. G2s are good enough.

About "missiles shot down", I will see how that work since the Skymer system I mentioned is one of the only "advanced" SAM networks there.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

15-12-2003, 05:37

Ever seen Down Periscope with Kelsy Grammar (sp?)? Take all that, multiply it times fifty, and bam! You have what we are sending. And yes, there is a chick on each one!
Sorry, but no film, especially an unrealistic comedy, is going to change the fact that the slowest ship in my fleet is three times as fast as your Gatos are submerged, and that the fleet is cruising faster than your subs can go without surfacing. Plus, at maximum speed, they wouldn't be able to get within 50 km of the force without snorkeling or being surfaced. Hence, many will be lost long before they get a chance to fire a shot, and few will get off more than one or two shots

And unfortunately, the fact that there's a chick on each one won't mean anything unless your captains decide to start surrendering. And even then, we have a fully integrated navy, so there's usually a few dozen on our ships :wink:

Omz222

15-12-2003, 05:51

Plus, at maximum speed, they wouldn't be able to get within 50 km of the force without snorkeling or being surfaced. Hence, many will be lost long before they get a chance to fire a shot, and few will get off more than one or two shots

And unfortunately, the fact that there's a chick on each one won't mean anything unless your captains decide to start surrendering. And even then, we have a fully integrated navy, so there's usually a few dozen on our ships :wink:
When the Gatos finally have the range to fire their torpedoes, my P-7As would have already dispatched ASW aircraft, submarines, and ASW ships heading to the Gatos anyways :P (and by any chance, some are already killed).

Clan Smoke Jaguar

15-12-2003, 15:10

Oh, and a further elaboration on the Gatos.
The absolute maximum range of the Mk.48 ADCAP torpedo is supposedly a little under 50 km @ 40 knots (or 38 km @ 55 knots). However, to account for evasive maneuvers, you want to be well within maximum range (30 or 40 km) before launching, or the simple act of running or evading will allow the ship to exceed the torpedoes range. In addition, the torpedo's own detection systems are only good for terminal guidance (about 10-15 km), and anything greater requires wire guidance up to the terminal phase. Should the wires be cut (say, by the launching sub having to make evasive maneuvers) or the submarine be destroyed before the torpedo gets close enough, it will likely fail hit the target. Time is also important. It would take over 22 minutes to reach maximum range at 55 knots, and it would take over 40 minutes to reach maximum range at 40 knots. As you might expect, a lot can happen in that time, including an ASROC, Sea Lance, or ASW aircraft.
And remember, you're further limited by the substandard sonar on the Gatos. These are WWII era boats after all.

15-12-2003, 23:56

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Omz222

16-12-2003, 00:36

[peckerhead]Geez. Are you people messed in the head?
No, we are just pointing something out. Sorry if it upset you.

They are on a freaking suicide mission anyways, if you would even call it a mission.
I don't think any sane commander would put thousands of crews in a suicide mission (crews of the sub). Ah well.

Barbarosea

16-12-2003, 04:22

Mabye he's not sane... :lol:

Omz222

16-12-2003, 04:29

Mabye he's not sane... :lol:
In every military there would be some insane commanders :P

16-12-2003, 04:32

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16-12-2003, 21:00

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Barbarosea

16-12-2003, 23:38

How is it that you guys know every plot twist I plan...? :o
Well, it's just a simple tweak to my mind control de-errrrr, I don't know, I guess I'm just lucky. Yeah, thats is, lucky. Stop looking at me, i didn't do anything. I swear :shock:

Lol

Omz222

17-12-2003, 00:20

double post

Omz222

17-12-2003, 00:29

Omz222: Um, I don't think you read one of my posts right. The C-1s and C-13s landed in the Delta Triumvirate base in Gradenk, where they transferred to C-130s, C-17s, and C-5s. You aren't tracking a supersonic transport.

Just think: The back ramp drops, and the paratroopers are sucked out of the transport.

In any case, I am refraining from replying to that part until it is cleared up.
Sorry, edited. Note that the location is still up above the Islands, so if your paratroopers make an emergency landing, they will find themselves landing somewhere on the big one of the Iansuk Islands :P

18-12-2003, 20:47

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Omz222

19-12-2003, 00:25

Okay, some very late-breaking developments. I just found out less than an hour ago I am leaving at 5PM Central tonight to go up to my uncle's house for a week of firing flak cannons at over-passing enemy bombers (AKA Duck Hunting). As this is, I am not looking to get home until the Sunday after Christmas. I request that the RP be if at all possible, post-poned until then. I think it would do good for possibly everyone- I need a break after NS, Mid-terms, and all that other stuff. Killing things brings me relaxation... yeah.
Flak cannons? :twisted: Well, good luck on your trip, don't catch any bad thing. The RP will be postponed.

About the transport: Yeah, the pilots are poorly following Rules of Engagements. For that, I may as well RP some friendly fires and accidents -- hey, they happen. Or, my F/A-160 colliding into the transport by accident :twisted:

Um, 520,000 or 820,000? And I don't really see how the people there could do that. Barbarosea was tasked with going through the city and 'taking care of' all people posed a threat. I mean by like taking weapons, searching homes, all that good stuff.
520,000 participating in the riot, 820,000 total in the organization. Even though Barbarosea's troops is tasked with it, I didn't really see him actually doing it. Weapons can come in a lot of forms anyways. If you dont' feel comfortable, I could take out the portions of some people having civilian AK-47 clones and even hunting rifles, but they still have gasoline and revolvers :twisted:

Are the people rising up, however many there are or whatever, going to be the ground attack, or are you still landing?
No, although the government support the people, it is completely a "civilian matter". Yes, people are rising up. About the landing statement however, I take that you are asking CSJ whether he will land his Marines or not?

I figured it out... :twisted:
About the ships? I was going to make a more deamatic post, but I didn't have the time when I posted it :P

Barbarosea

19-12-2003, 02:08

Omz222

19-12-2003, 02:27

I did, I was posting that about 30, then 45, then 60, then 70 % of the city was "cleared". Now, that doesn't mean I got everything, but my troops are trained in urban warfare. And another thing, we did kill some civilians with bombs (many bombs) that were chucked in apt. buildings for some "clearing". We're not the US, we don't care that much.
That was just "cleared" -- which can mean almost anything: checking for weapons, checking for remaining enemies, bombing, etc. I don't think you mentioned anything about the soldiers really checking each home for weapons.

Barbarosea

19-12-2003, 02:29

Still, 520,000?

Omz222

19-12-2003, 02:33

Still, 520,000?
Yes, an angry mob of 520,000 civilians against an imperalistic foreign occupation of the democratic nation they love, armed with their homemade "weapons" and some hunting rifles and (mostly) trained in the military under compulsary military service. After all, they did have more than 300,000 Hungarian civilians participating in the overthrow of the Soviet-backed Hungary communist government back in 1956, also armed with weapons. You'll also probably notice that I haven't posted the citizens revolt immediately. They need planning, and time.

But still, they are easy targets for some machine gun fire :twisted:

EDIT: On request, I could down the number a bit, but still Honjaksgrad has a huge multimillion population, and many people wanted to revolt.

Omni Conglomerates

19-12-2003, 03:41

I have no problem with 520,000 civilians rising up against us. Just have them march into the northern sector. I wouldn't be all that bad of an idea. They could clear out some landmines by stepping on them or makeing us slightly lower on ammo by running into our bullets. I suppose I could post losing like 20 guys. Maybe less since will likely just fire into the croud and launch some missles in there. Not like we care about civilians anyways. Maybe we could execute a few civilians later to send a message....

Clan Smoke Jaguar

19-12-2003, 10:30

You'd lose a few thousand at least. Claiming broke up an attack (note, not an angry mob, but a planned attack) that size with that few casualties would be an extreme godmod, regardless of how well you're situated.

Omz222

19-12-2003, 17:08

They could clear out some landmines by stepping on them or makeing us slightly lower on ammo by running into our bullets. I suppose I could post losing like 20 guys. Maybe less since will likely just fire into the croud and launch some missles in there.
Actually, the people there at the Hungarian revolt destroyed some tens of Soviet tanks, and already looted an army base. Many more infantry were dead, along at that case, secret police.

Omni Conglomerates

21-12-2003, 03:25

Omz222

21-12-2003, 03:36

Actually there is no possible way we would lose a few thousand men against a bunch of untrained rabble with pistols and molotovs no matter how many. They march into the north sector we mow them down with miniguns and then put heads on steaks as an example we might lose more than 20 but not in the thousands. We have control of the streets and we wont restrain ourselves from firing on civilians. It isn't like we follow the geneva convention anyway.
Yes, short term damage could number small, overall I'd agree. But if we are talking about long-term damage from days of attacks by these angry people who mostly already served in the military (we have compulsary military service like some other RL countries, which requires men aged 18-26 that have an Omzian citizenship to receive regular training in the Army, Navy, or Air Force for 3 years while the person still normally have a job [some don't: they work full time at the base]), much like what is happening to the US forces in Iraq, then it could skyrocket to thousands.

Omni Conglomerates

21-12-2003, 04:44

I did not know aboot your cumplusory military service....we would lose a slightly larger number. It would likely reach the into the thousand range if they attacked enmasse, but in raids they would not do much. We have, unlike in Iraq, increadible amounts of surveillance over the whole northern sector. I don't know about the rest of my comrades, but surprise attacks aren't likely. Of course, I assume you aren't attacking just my area. Sniper troops are in the west and you have Barbarosa units in the central area, so I would assume they are also targets. I only speak for my nation when I say we will slaughter any civilian that is out in the streets mercilessly.

Barbarosea

22-12-2003, 18:29

We have heavy machine guners and snipers all over our area, and no, we are not afraid to kill a civilian. Heck, if my men see one, there orders are to yell, "Get down!" and if they don't, shoot. We might lose more then OC, because we don't have the place rigged, but we still won't take too many deaths.

24-12-2003, 03:00

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Omz222

24-12-2003, 03:03

I am on my grandmother's computer for a few minutes...

Now, SC is more 'compassionate' towards civilians, but if they have a gun and a mad look on their faces, we shoot. Our guys out on the streets are tired of sitting there, and have very itchy trigger fingers. 520,000 civilians with weapons wouldn't be hard to spot in the city atall. SCMI and the IMF aren't incompetent at what they do. you also said something about the northwest? That's great- Gangland is up there, boyz.

Glad to see you are back for a bit. About the civilians however, they are probably acting too patriotic and angry. I'll think about how many would fit in a street corner or roof.

Muahahahahahaha!
I'll see about that :twisted:

24-12-2003, 18:49

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Omz222

24-12-2003, 18:52

Yeah, see howmany you can pack like that...

I am contemplating on whether or not to make an IC post today, because I know OC and me wouldn't be able to make another one until at least Monday. My post would be pretty short, mainly focusing on the 19th thing. I just don't want to come back Monday and see there are ten posts after mine, not giving me achance to defend. Preciate it.
I wouldn't mind, at least. I'll make sure that each participant only posts 1 post (at least, the "attack" posts).

25-12-2003, 22:55

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Omz222

25-12-2003, 23:00

Am I safe to say that we are ten days into the war? Can somebody give me an estimate?
Hmm... Well, gotta admit, I did lost track a little :P I'd say it could be safe to say that we are 10 days into the war now.

25-12-2003, 23:03

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Omz222

25-12-2003, 23:12

Ten days it is.

I may or may not be posting tonight. I may be going back to Senatobia for more huntin. Hope everyone had a good Christmas.
Forgot to say:

Merry Christmas to all (that includes you :wink: )!

Liberty Fighters

26-12-2003, 01:03

Hey SC, what are your numbers for that 19th Paratrooper?
Merry Christmas to all!
I wonder how many people actually remeber im involved here...

Barbarosea

28-12-2003, 04:32

Hey SC, what are your numbers for that 19th Paratrooper?
Merry Christmas to all!
I wonder how many people actually remeber im involved here...
Oh, I do

Srry I haven't been on in a while, playing with my christmas presents... :twisted:

Omz222

28-12-2003, 05:56

Srry I haven't been on in a while, playing with my christmas presents... :twisted:

So I see... :twisted:

LF:

Assuming each plane holds 250, then an estimate:

250 X 98* = approx. 24,500 troops (plus Humvees, airdroppable Bradleys, and light artillery pieces I believe)

But since 17 are shot down (with 16 having half of the paratroppers still inside):

24,500 - 2375 (approx.) = approx. 22,125

*-Total number of transports. Includes C-17, C-5, C-141, and C-130 (I believe).

Liberty Fighters

28-12-2003, 17:13

Thank you...

Liberty Fighters

29-12-2003, 06:52

Hey, can anyone tell me why this war started again? I kinda forget...

Omz222

29-12-2003, 06:59

Hey, can anyone tell me why this war started again? I kinda forget...If you are talking about why we are restarting this soon, the answer's that SC is going to be back :P

29-12-2003, 07:56

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29-12-2003, 10:51

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Omni Conglomerates

30-12-2003, 03:18

Liberty Fighters

31-12-2003, 03:53

Omz, do you have an updated map of the areas held by the enemy, and safe areas?

Omz222

31-12-2003, 03:58

Well, I have just returned from the great slightly north of Tennessee. I have been on a mighty journey of fell purpose. I have been visiting relatives. I was returned to my flat and rainy land on the sixth hour of the afternoon on this day. Greetings, salutations, a very happy New Year, and, most importantly, a merry Christmas to you all. (Emphasis on the Christ part, for I do not recollect how to make my text bold)
Welcome back to you too, a late merry Christmas to you.

LF: Well, overall I'll admit no, I'll be making one later, after I egt some answers.

SC: Any data on where your fleet for Salted Earth is? For the paratrooper landing, where are they landing exactly? Thanks.

31-12-2003, 04:04

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Barbarosea

31-12-2003, 06:03

SC- Why so?

I'm moving Fredrick Barbarosea to the UVC-10 to get him in a Z-7 to fly him to Unum Veritas where he has to sign a treaty that was just passed. So that will fit in with my operation, and as a tip to Omz222 and allies, you may be able to intersept a transmission about this...

OOC: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107365

Clan Smoke Jaguar

31-12-2003, 06:03

Your map isn't working...

http://members.lycos.co.uk/omz123/omzmap.jpg

It don't work. If it worked I could tell ya :lol:

EDIT: But as I remember, you had a river cutting straight through your island, and a third tributary thing. You do realize, as pointed out to me by OC, that the third river is geologically, geographically, and all that stuff impossible?
Well, I can see the map just fine :?

Really, a continuous river completely bisecting the island would be pretty much impossible, unless it's a saltwater river fed from the ocean, which would mean that much of Omz222 is below sea level. Otherwise, there would have to be a point of origin (usually mountains or highlands), and there would have to be two separate rivers originating close to each other.

Omz222

31-12-2003, 06:19

I can also see the map fine, even with my "cache" removed from Internet Explorer -- you might want to refresh a bit (or if IE is being a pain for you, try Mozilla Firebird (http://mozilla.org/products/firebird)). Anywho, I do have that river bisecting the island. But thanks for pointing that out (to eliminate future embarassment), not a geography/geology nut here :P Edited.

OC: A few questions I need answer to.
1. What are those cruise missiles? There are many different kinds of anti-ship cruise missiles -- some are easy to shoot down, some not; some can even slightly damage a battleship, others will probably have minimal effect. Types will have a lot of effect on my losses.
If you are not good at these area, I'm sure that others can help you out with it.
2. Also still not sure. Are the cruise missiles & aircraft actually in the air now, or are they going to be in a future post?

Thanks.

Brabarosea: Ah, alright. But getting a national leader into a battlefield is not a wise choice, especially if he looks like an old man :twisted: And no, unless it is a "normal" radio message that is poorly/un- encrypted, it would be pretty godmodery to say my aircraft can pick up the transmission.

Barbarosea

31-12-2003, 06:43

Oh, well see, Fredrick Barbarosea Jr. (and all Barbarosean's) lead there army into battle, in a way. It's tradition, you see. But he's no, old man, at about 52, he's not quite to the salt n' pepper look yet, but he's got spunk. He carries a DE .50 cal. The raido is a standard signal, just like your AM/FM radios are.

Omz222

31-12-2003, 07:08

31-12-2003, 07:42

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Omz222

31-12-2003, 07:48

Wow, the map looks different now. I wasn't saying that the river splitting the nation in half was impossible, I was saying the tributary from them going to the east was. Lest there are some sort of mountains or something in the area, and it got a crapload of rain. The river could not be flowing in the easterly direction, and it is unlikely it would be flowing westward either.
Well, I'll think about that, possibly another modification.

The 19th is just below the river, I'd say about 20 or 30 miles south.
Understood, thanks for the information.

The bay looks a lot different too... Wow, now that I really look at it, me, Barb, and OC are going to have to change a few plans...Overall, I do admit that I forgot to add the strait, and yes it did change a lot. If it interferes with your plans howeber, I'll see how I will deal with this, although the strait is not that narrow. More like a large river.

Perhaps that calls for another modification.

EDIT: New map up. "War map" coming soon, still waiting for the answer regarding where the SC/OC naval taskforces would be.

31-12-2003, 09:43

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

31-12-2003, 14:52

With word that the Conglomerates ships were already moving in, Admirale Lindsey gave the immediate order that the Sniper Country Battlegroup was to move in as well. The ships began their full steam move, yet the SSNs and SSGs moved much slower than the other vessels. Ten LACV-30s, which had snuck in with the fleet as it stalked the Clanner fleet, moved along with the Battlegroup.

Onbaord the SCNF Buford, the CH-47F landed. Crews were already waiting, and unloading had commenced. Immediately, the ten MK48 ADCAPs that had been transported were offloaded and taken to the torpedo tubes. The five torpedo tubes were loaded up with the weapons, leaving another volley to be fired immedaitely after the first. The torpedoes were launched just seconds later, jettisoning into the water, headed towards the enemy carriers, both Omzian and Clanner. In the torpedoes, the warheads were fitted with only a hundred pounds of HE; the other 550lbs consisted of 100% pure potassium block. What a show.
Uh, no. My fleet isn't on EMCON, and there is no way you could pull all that off. Claiming you have ships on the surface, within (minimum) 10 km of my outer escort ring and alive long enough to land a chopper, load torpedoes, and fire them, is quite the godmod. You'd also need a very good explanation as to why my AWACS aircraft didn't detect the CH-47 a good 200 km off. Even with the helicopter at sea-skimming altitudes, it'll be seen that far easily. You can't get into torpedo range of a carrier without RPing it in any situation. Heck, you shouldn't be getting into torpedo range of the escorts without RPing, and the outer ring is over 30km from the carriers!
Even a submarine would be detected via radar if it so much as popped its radio antenna above the surface at that range.

Omz222

31-12-2003, 18:09

If at all possible, I would like Ty to live to the end of the war. Some big dramatic thing I'm thinking about at the end of the war.
Well, sure, but he could have been detained in a high security prison -- or just a police station.
No, we don't execute POW's. At least, we don't kill them :twisted:

Uh, no. My fleet isn't on EMCON, and there is no way you could pull all that off. Claiming you have ships on the surface, within (minimum) 10 km of my outer escort ring and alive long enough to land a chopper, load torpedoes, and fire them, is quite the godmod. You'd also need a very good explanation as to why my AWACS aircraft didn't detect the CH-47 a good 200 km off. Even with the helicopter at sea-skimming altitudes, it'll be seen that far easily. You can't get into torpedo range of a carrier without RPing it in any situation. Heck, you shouldn't be getting into torpedo range of the escorts without RPing, and the outer ring is over 30km from the carriers!
Even a submarine would be detected via radar if it so much as popped its radio antenna above the surface at that range.
I suppose the submarine's antenna/periscope could be covered with RAM (which I'm doing to some of my subs). Don't know salt water's effect to that.
I do also have some submarines just sitting there (loaded with Harpoon & torpedoes) very quietly and wait for its prey. That's also an added defence. My submarine could have detected the ship if they entered my battlegroup "area" anyways.
About the low-flying helicopter however, I suppose it may be able to sway off radar waves on it when it's low-flying hundreds of KM's away, but I doubt it still could when it is just a few tens KM away.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

01-01-2004, 04:21

Omz222

01-01-2004, 04:23

Clan Smoke Jaguar

01-01-2004, 04:45

The submarine had to surface to have a helicopter land on it. that would show up on any surface search radar for dozens of kilometers, and any sub hunting radar could see it from even further off. The periscope and antenna are often covered by RAM and of a stealthy design, but sub-hunting radars still detect them at close range. Imagine the return you'd get from a whole sub when the system is designed to detect just the mast!
Actually, I thought that it was a frigate/destroy/carrier some sorts that has 533mm< torpedo tubes for firing Mk.48s...
Yeah, I think it was. Bad wording on my part. Either way, having a ship close enough to fire torpedoes at my carriers and with a helicopter landing on it, yet not already sunk, is about the equivalent of me having someone magically bypass all his troops and security and wipe out his entire command staff. Not exactly something that's acceptable.

01-01-2004, 04:50

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Omz222

01-01-2004, 04:54

I have not really a clue what you are talking about. Perhaps there is some confusion on what the SCNF Buford is... a RAID Destroyer, not a submarine. I take it back that the torpedoes were fired already- that early in the morning and my head sort of swims.
He's talking about the ship that fired the torpedoes. But he origionally thought it was a submarine. No problem, more info about the Mk.48 ADACP is here (http://globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/mk-48.htm).

As for the chopper- if you would like to intercept it, go ahead. I can simply delete all that part of the post, and allow you to post the pick-up of the helicopter. I earlier posted that it was lifting off, and you could have posted that you picked it up afterwards. Whatever floats your boats.
Well, I'll see how it goes. I wouldn't really intercept it 300km away from my ships, but I would if it starts to get much closer to my ship that it could pose a threat :twisted:

01-01-2004, 04:57

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Omz222

01-01-2004, 05:08

Wait- does this mean the Mk.48 ADCAP can only be carried by submarines?

EDIT: And I also feel the need to apologize for the seemingly crappiness of my posts. I am putting a bit of work into the Narcs storefront at the moment...

Well, at least there's no US surface warships in its inventory that can fire this particular kind of torpedo. But since I don't want to nitpick every single wrong detail, I had let it go.

Also, the posts are still alright, quality are good enough. It seems that there will be some form of competition between your F-19 and the F-14F... :twisted: Nice products btw.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

01-01-2004, 05:43

I'm kind of in a zombie state myself. Things are just so busy here (I work in a movie theater right now). Generally, I'm a bit testier when I'm exhausted. My stupid mistakes tend to be reserved for people who can see my face :P
Btw, I did forget that I'm intending to lose those two carriers by the end of the war anyway. :lol:

The Mk.48 could easily be launched from surface ships, but it would have to use submerged torpedo tubes. The weapon was not desinged to be dropped into the water, and is thus too fragile for an above-surface launch like the Mk.46/50/54.
Really, if you want to get in to the carriers, the only effective way is to either whittle down the escorts, which will take a while, or to have a submarine move into their path, power down, and wait for them to come to it. It could easily get off a few torpedoes that way, though its chances of getting back out without help are rather slim.

Edit: There are surface launched 21" torpedoes, just not in NATO. The Soviet Union has a few models that are used on ASW ships.

Barbarosea

01-01-2004, 17:47

F-19 ... Nice products btw.

I uh, helped with it, so thank you.

Omni Conglomerates

02-01-2004, 03:28

OC: A few questions I need answer to.
1. What are those cruise missiles? There are many different kinds of anti-ship cruise missiles -- some are easy to shoot down, some not; some can even slightly damage a battleship, others will probably have minimal effect. Types will have a lot of effect on my losses.
If you are not good at these area, I'm sure that others can help you out with it.
2. Also still not sure. Are the cruise missiles & aircraft actually in the air now, or are they going to be in a future post?

They are BGM-109A Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, and yes they are now in the air and headed your way. The cruise missiles first followed by the jets. I am sure your people will notice that on radar when they come into range.

Omz222

02-01-2004, 03:46

They are BGM-109A Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, and yes they are now in the air and headed your way. The cruise missiles first followed by the jets. I am sure your people will notice that on radar when they come into range.
Thank you, that's what I need to know.

Omz222

02-01-2004, 06:27

Omz222

02-01-2004, 08:53

Just a question, nto really a science nut here. I know potassium is sort of an "reactive" or "Explosive" element, but how would it work in your cruise missile, as a block, to damage my ship? Not saying that it is impossible, just want to know. Thanks.

02-01-2004, 08:58

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

02-01-2004, 09:20

IIRC, a potassium explosion is not really that strong, and is far weaker than that of the compounds used in US torpedoes, which are nearly twice as powerful as TNT. Similarly, the detonation in missiles will not be quite as spectacular as you might think (remember, they strike above the water line). Using more advanced conventional explosive compounds would inflict much more damage.

Edit: the reaction between potassium and water is also almost instantaneous. A torpedo would have to physically penetrate the hull and detonate inside for that effect.

02-01-2004, 09:24

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Omz222

02-01-2004, 09:29

Hoo-boy.

The explosive block would detonate, just as it reached your ship. This would blast a hole in your ship, allowing a small bit of water to get in. The massive ammounts of potassium would be released into the water, and well, there's not a lot left. The potassium would react with the water in a magnificent display or explosiveness, reacting with the water outside, and, if lucky, with the water inside the ship. Then, if any of the stuff got in contact with anyone's skin, it would be worse than a Willy-Peter grenade. Just think: BIIIIIIIIG EXPLOOOOOOOOOSION.
Ah, times for the crews to repair the ship themselves. Anyways, I'll see how this goes, still confused what kind of explosion a 1000lb block will accomplish.

Thanks for the idea. Even though it could be a failed plan, if my naval experts could figure out what did damage to it, maybe it can give us a new idea fro a new type of weapon... mwhahahahaha...hah..a!

02-01-2004, 09:36

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02-01-2004, 09:36

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

02-01-2004, 09:45

It is an interesting idea, and not without merit. I'm just pointing out that this isn't quite that effective. If it was better than current methods, it would likely be in use today, as a block of potassium is rather cheap compared to many explosive compounds. I believe that I have a better way to take advantage of such a reaction, but I won't state it :wink:

For the torpedo, it is indeed of minimal worth, as potassium reactions will not produce the shockwave of conventional explosives, which is what causes the real damage, and torpedoes detonate outside the hull, in many cases not even coming in direct contact.

02-01-2004, 09:49

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

02-01-2004, 09:58

Well, I can think of a few things that the missiles would do, and that could be rather troublesome for smaller ships, so you can still go with it. I just don't think it's quite that good, but don't be too quick to throw away an idea. It might turn out better than you expect.
But yes, it's not that powerful, and it shouldn't be standard practice, even if it was. Would be best to keep us guessing.

Western Asia

02-01-2004, 10:39

Mainly psy-warfare and morale effects. Chemical burns are just about the nastiest thing you can get...and a huge block of potassium hitting water will soon turn into 100 somewhat smaller blocks of potassium flying through the air (each contact will produce enough force to shatter the block and spread the pieces through the air, at fairly high speeds).

Crews on deck would be injured or would flee and, if the thing blew inside of a ship, you would have to call in a special HAZMAT squad (Hazmat teams tend to really only be on the fleet carriers and the few mechanics that might be qualified to handle other chemicals (ie petrol and other fuels and oil products) would not be willing to try to decon any large work areas). A lot of time, money, and energy is wasted for your crews. Chemical burns keep burning until they've been treated...and water won't do (you don't want the .5g piece of K burning in the midshipman's arm to suddenly explode, do you?).

The standard procedure for hospitals, industrial sites, and locations that contain hazardous materials (like a USN destroyer) is to include information about dealing with the chemicals normally present...pure potassium is not a normal component of the ship environment and so you'll need those HAZMAT squads to clean even the smallest of messes...and there are only so many squads.

The weapon is one of 'shock and awe' much like the massively impractical "MOAB," which can only be dropped from airspace that is 100% under friendly control...and is really just meant to scare enemy soldiers into surrendering. The large bombs in the conventional force (which can be dropped from B-52s or more tactical bombers) are plenty capable of leveling a large building...at less cost and with more tactical effect. The MOAB is meant to scare people by making a mushroom cloud and a big bang, this is meant to scare people by making the very presence of its contents a nightmare.

Destructive ability? Minimal. Psychological impact? Massive.

As far as torps go, the block would jump to the surface rapidly (I believe that the pure forms have a lower density than water) and 'explode' upwards, sending potassium shrapnel through the air....oh, yea, and there might be some toxic gasses...but those shouldn't be too troublesome.

In conclusion, exploding K =/= a fun fireworks show.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

02-01-2004, 19:48

So in conclusion: a missile with it would not be too damaging, but would cause a bit of trouble for cleanup crews, meaning, as I said, you're going to need some standard ones in the mix. Friendly ports are nearby afterall.
The torpedo is pretty much a complete waste of a perfectly good weapon. The damage (including psychological) from the potassium would be marginal at best. Most of it wouldn't even reach anywhere the crew happens to be and would fall harmlessly back into the water, or on the hull of the ship, where it's not really a big deal and can be cleaned up at leisure.
This would also be one of those things that can only be used once or twice at peak effectiveness. We'd catch on very quickly, and start keeping crews trained to deal with potassium on board.

Omz222

02-01-2004, 20:16

Hmm, would wearing JSLIST or other protective suits at elast preventing potassium from burning on someone's skin?

There is some friendly naval ports, plus teams trained to handle chemical/biological weapons, chemical, and clean up the destruction (hint: we did this since the "Airbase gassing" and "SC ships gassing" incidents in Royal Palm civil war :P ) on both the ships (equipped with some NBC equipments) plus the ports, so I wouldn't say it would be a huge hassle, although potassium would still be quite new to them.

About toxic gas however, that can be solved easily using various procedures.

Western Asia

03-01-2004, 01:36

Most protective clothing should protect your men. Indeed, this weapon won't work well over repeated attacks, but one or two large strikes should be fairly successful as a psychological weapon. If these are done close enough together, the assaulted force should not have time to effectively respond with institution-wide changes. Even with crews that have the benefit of a local HAZMAT crew, the weapons will be effective against the enlisted personnel, who tend to be less educated and knowledgeable about proper responses to unfamiliar situations.

Even if there are enemy ports nearby, minor damages to reduce battle efficiency, to reduce crew morale, and cost the enemy time are still effective for assault operations. If a ship is in port, it will make an easy target and will be less able to respond to enemy threats...the Germans lost at least one top-notch battleship near the southern tip of Africa during WWII because the ship (with repaired damages) couldn't leave the friendly port, so it was abandoned.

As for training, in the midst of a single battle, there is little time to retrain crews effectively...it will be at least until another campaign (or another part of a large, extended war) before your crews can really respond well.

Omni Conglomerates

03-01-2004, 04:15

Greetings. Granted, if the potassium missile did not pucture the hull of the ship there would not be much done to the ship, but if the missile punched a hole with the 100lbs of HE it is carrying the potassium is likely to get inside of your ship. If the ship has potassium in it and if the water runs in there is an explosion. The explosion is not so forceful as to blow up your ship, but it is more than enough to incinerate any men in the compartment and any conjoining men in the area of the hole. The heat will be enough to melt things too, and that just isn't good for your ship. Now, not all of your ships may be punctured, in fact, only a few may be, but your men will be peeing their pants. That's a fact. Have a nice day.

Omz222

03-01-2004, 04:18

Greetings. Granted, if the potassium missile did not pucture the hull of the ship there would not be much done to the ship, but if the missile punched a hole with the 100lbs of HE it is carrying the potassium is likely to get inside of your ship.
I wouldn't really say the 100lb HE could really penetrate the armor of my large ships, unless of course the missile itself penetrates into it.

Omni Conglomerates

03-01-2004, 04:40

"To be blunt sir, long have I sat here and read reports from the Omz commanderis of the war. It has lead me to the realization that, these imperialist pigs, who attack our ally Omz with no cause, have dug themselves into a whole that will bury them. Under the discression you granted me, I would declare, that These bastards shall feel the fury of Liberty as it rains down upon them crushing them, and beating them back to whence they came. It is time sir"

Yeah...umm.....I might add that we are not imperialist. We want to rape your land and take all of your trees because we have none in our nation. We want to take all of your valuables and leave. We are not imperialist because we don't have any intrest in colonizing your nation after we conquer it. Oh, yeah, let me repeat. We are going to cut down every tree we find in your nation if we win the war, and that is a promise. Wood is almost as valuable as most rare metals in my nation, because there are none. Have a nice day.

==========================

Oh, yeah, that's ok, Omz, because as I said, even if the missile doesn't penetrate, your men will wet themselves because chunks of metal are flying through the air and exploding on contact with water in a very fiery way. Oh, and let us not forget what happens if any of the metal makes contact with skin.....isn't the human body nearly 75% water? Thank you again, and have a wonderfully nice day.

Omz222

03-01-2004, 05:48

Yeah...umm.....I might add that we are not imperialist. We want to rape your land and take all of your trees because we have none in our nation. We want to take all of your valuables and leave. We are not imperialist because we don't have any intrest in colonizing your nation after we conquer it.

Ah, it is simply the effect of the "Reformed" educational system in Omz222 on the citizens, and the leftover propaganda in the "socialist era". However, be rest assured, the education system does "educate" the 1 billion plus Omzian people to "revolt against the enemy" :twisted: And even if you do cut down trees (in which case, there isn't much near Honjaksgrad), then they'll call you "brutal imperalists". If you rape them, then they'll call you "genocidal imperalists".

Not commies, but they are patriots :P

even if the missile doesn't penetrate, your men will wet themselves because chunks of metal are flying through the air and exploding on contact with water in a very fiery way. Oh, and let us not forget what happens if any of the metal makes contact with skin.....isn't the human body nearly 75% water?
Correct, and that will injure quite a few of my crew, but that will simply level off some portion of the casulties. Even though they will fear it, the crews are trained against NBC weaponeries usage (in which case, they'll rush off to put on their suits first).

Liberty Fighters

03-01-2004, 06:14

LF, just a note, even if your fleet did arrive it would take days, which sadly, means that your fleet can't arrive now (unless you are next door to me in which case I'm not in your region). If you ARE in the Northern Pacific areas though, it would take shorter time. Because of the recent "slowiness" of this RP, we are RPing 1-NS-day-per-multiple-RL-days. I could RP the welcome of the arrival as if it's a few days ahead of the naval war in Hagras, but I don't know how that will really work, since it would be days ahead (or even a week+ if you are 10,000< away from me).

When your fleet arrives however, could you list the ships and state where you have arrived (north/south/east/west/etc.)? Thanks.

Haha, K my bad, just getting a little excited to get int into this agter 15 pages of reading! Okay, lets just say he made the transmission from alot farther off, the other details are the same, some of the smaller vessels are going to need to put into port for short periods before they are beattle ready.

Omni Conglomerates

04-01-2004, 04:41

Also, an OOC thread request, OC: could you explain how the "tetranitromethane/toluene-compound" torpedoes works? Thanks.

Yes, a pure tetranitromethane/toluene compound is basically one of the most unstable and explosive chemical compounds known to man. Let me correct that. The most explosive coctail ever mixed by scientific hands. Short of an atomic reaction you won't find a better high explosive.
In an explosive reaction the compound reached a nice warm and toasty 10,000 degrees Celcius and in an argon atmostphere it reaches an even more cozy 27,000 degrees Celcius. Its closest counterpart used today is nitroglycerine. Its closest counterpart in explosive capacity is octinitrocubane. Back to TMN (tetranitromethane). It is extremely unstable and definitely much more volatile than nitroglycerine, but it does yield roughly 134% more explosive power than TNT. Since the war is based in 2015, I feel that 11 years of dedicated research would be able to account for the unfortunately high volatility of the chemical. By unfortunately high, I refer to the French military's experiments with "Panclastite" which yielded some rather unfortunate results for clumsy researchers. That is a very basic overview of the abilities of a tetranitromethane/toluene explosive. To summerize, very big boom.

Omni Conglomerates

04-01-2004, 04:52

Also, another note. If anyone has issue with my use of this compund I can switch to any number of extremely explosive chemicals. Octinitrocubane, nitrocubane, tetranitrocubane (which is very stable, except when it blows up), or even the trimeric form of peroxyacetone could be replaced as the base. Granted, some of the chemicals are currently very hard to synthesize, but I think that they are all feasible for the current campaign. At least according to my limited study of chemistry. Thank you and have an explosively nice day. I doubt I shall be posting in the IC forum tonight, but I probably will tomorrow.

Omz222

04-01-2004, 05:00

Also, another note. If anyone has issue with my use of this compund I can switch to any number of extremely explosive chemicals.

No, not an issue at all. How much stronger than standard High-Explosive warheads used in Tomahawks, would you say (PBXN-103 explosives usedon US torpedoes is about 95% stronger than TNT I'd say [Edit: just found out 650lb of this is equivalent to approx. 1200lbs of TNT])? Seems devastating... Again, thanks for the information, and an explosively nice day to you too :twisted: Still needs to have some other ships sank (creating a more hassle-free naval reform after the war).

EDIT: Well the date of this RP does date to 2015, but if you ask the "main" tech period, I'd say much like 2004 or 5 (the lasers I would say are also achievable -- the MTHEL [the one which is employed on SC ships I believe, plus some of my ships] is already in use). So no 2020-style hypersonic bombers or Mach 15 kinetic missiles here.

Liberty Fighters

04-01-2004, 05:52

Omz222

04-01-2004, 06:09

Omz buddy, IM sorry, but ihope you werent banking anytihng on my fleet arriving, I have a very bad crisis going on IRL, sucks big time, looks like im back into depression, well anyways, way too much personal info there haha! Just ignore my Being in this conflict all together
sorry everyone, great RP keep it going, GO OMZ!
Not exactly, it is quite alright. If you want to take a break, do so. This is a game, after all, and you shouldn't take it as if it is your life :P Taking a break from here is understandable regardng your situation, so no problems. Maybe Remiesia might be able to fill your role when he gets back from his 42 days of inactivity. When you come back however, you are welcome to come back to the RP.

About the last post however, will do, will post a reply to that soon.

Thanks, this is certainly a great war RP. Keep it up everyone.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

04-01-2004, 08:06

Basically, OC's explosive is 26.75% more powerful than ours. However, this should be offset a bit by the greater care and safety measures needed, and it would be nice to see at least one accident occur. These would also be more vunlerable to anti-torpedo rockets and depth charges, as the shock might be enough to detonate the warhead.

04-01-2004, 09:16

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Western Asia

04-01-2004, 10:39

OOC: Just a note on the MTHEL issue/comment.

The technology to track and engage, as well as the actual abilities to effect, have been proven since 2000 repeatedly. The main issue is size. For my productions, the MTHEL I system is dated c. 2010 and MTHEL II dated c. 2015.

05-01-2004, 23:52

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06-01-2004, 04:51

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Omz222

06-01-2004, 05:00

And for the record, I am not replying to the thread in order to give CSJ a chance to post ICly. Just being courteous.
Well, I'll also wait for OC a bit, since he said before that he's going to post yesterday.

About the explosive however, just the standard explosives, with a few exceptions which I will figure out later. And I do agree on the D&D, it is exactly the stage when everyone just "knock each other out" :P

Clan Smoke Jaguar

06-01-2004, 07:05

And actually, CSJ, tetranitromethane is very stable. Only when it is mixed with something that will make it unstable is it unstable. Which means if OC and/or SC has the TMN by itself, it wouldn't be nearly as unstable. However, if it is mixed, it is extremely unstable. So no gross accidents would really occur unless you caught the weapons with 'their pants down' and the TMN mixed with another component. As far as I see it, we could just mix the TMN and whatever else just before we launched it.

My two cents.
. . . At which point it would become unstable enough for an accident to occur :P
Really, considering torpedo design and the nature of the available facilities on the ships, I'd say that the best options would be to have it already mixed, or to have a system in the warhead that mixes it after launch. The former has the inherant instability, and the latter would reduce warhead load and would, almost, if not completely negate the advantage of the compound. It would be perfectly safe though.
Mixing it before launch would be a complex and difficult process, and one where an accident would be likely.

07-01-2004, 05:42

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

07-01-2004, 11:20

Care to enlighten me on how it would be very dangerous? I don't really see how it would be. And you didn't reply to my launching missiles at you.
Not exceptionally so, but you run into the chance any time you do it, and a ship on anything but calm seas would help to complicate things even more. I will not pursue it much further though, as the benefit from the explosive isn't that great. It's just that if I were playing with it like that, I'd have an accident. There would also be the possibility of a minor error with resealing the torpedo, and that could make it vulnerable to pressure if sent after a deep-diving submarine.

As for the missiles, I didn't catch them in your post, and I didn't think I was quite within range for that yet. If you were that close, the planes over your fleet would already be dropping like flies (NADSAM ER has 100 km greater range than Yakhont), and I'd have launched a number of missiles at you already. Oh well, I guess I'll give you first shot here.

Omz222

07-01-2004, 16:41

Clan Smoke Jaguar

07-01-2004, 21:45

As for the missiles, I didn't catch them in your post, and I didn't think I was quite within range for that yet.
Actually, he could, since the maximum range of the Yakhont for a high-low flight profile (which makes it easier to intercept outside of that "terminal phase" range) is about 300km I believe. I think what he meant however, is that he launched those from the ships, not air.
He specifically stated that they were fired by BASS missile frigates, which I noted when I went back over it. That means that his naval force was closer than I thought, and I should have already been engaging his ships and aircraft with Harpoons/Naginatas, and NADSAMS-ERs, as they were well within range. I am well aware of the range of the Yakhont (look at the post: 400 km NADSAM-ER - 300 km Yakhont = 100 km overreach).

Omz222

13-01-2004, 07:24

Above the Sniper Country Battlegroup, Sniper Country and Conglomerate aircraft had considerable control over the situation. If the enemy dared to confront them, it would be a suicide mission. That is, however, what the enemy decided to do. With word of enemy missiles fired from ship sites, the aircraft immediately split into several, almost endless assorted locations. The sky was covered with flare and chaff, although not extremely exuberant in the morning light. Several of the enemy missiles approached inbound hot, and tracked to the ‘fireballs’ and ‘deceivers’ set out by the aircraft. Ten of the F-14Ds, however, were not lucky. Incapable of pulling some more excessive G-Maneuvering, fell victim to the enemy SAMs.

Not meaning to be extremely picky, but when 64 high-performance, high-ECM resistant, plus low-RCS-aircraft tracking-capable missiles were shot up at the aircraft, it should be more than just 10. Although a barrage of chaff and flares were deployed, the missiles would still be smart enough to catch onto the aircraft although obviously also still has a barrage of chaff and flares to work with (many modern SAMs now are capable of doing that, even shoulder-fired Iglas while early IR-guided SAMs even confuse the sun with aircraft). While high G and various evasive manuvers could also shrug off missiles, keep in mind that not only smaller missiles that can achieve high G (in that case Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles could achieve 50G).

Another related note however, if you are shooting at air-to-air or air-to-surface targets while doing the manuver, you could even break the radar lock (especially bad when you are shooting a semi-active radar guided missile such as the Sparrow).

Just something to note, not a big fuss. Hopefully not too confusing.

PS- Regarding that, I should note that I am giving your long-range fleet air defence a chance to shoot at my aircraft, since they still have a very long way to go. Feel free to shoot them down within a 350km range as you'd like.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

13-01-2004, 10:20

I think I'll elaborate a bit here. The NADSAM-ER can only pull 32g. However, that is sufficient to intercept an F-14 (6.5g) in many cases. This is backed up by a powerful warhead with a lethal burst radius of 24m, which is five times that of most antiaircraft missiles, so even if it detonates on chaff/flare/decoy, there's still a decent chance of fatally damaging the evading aircraft.
Two missiles would almost guarantee a hit against any aircraft in most situations. Even in a situation like this, at least 30% of them should have struck home. I'll let it go this time. But so you guys know, I've been downplaying my defenses here (there would probably have been complaints if none of SCs missiles got through, even though that's how it should have gone with so few fired). The IR backup on the NADSAMs makes them very effective against Yakhonts and similar missiles.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

13-01-2004, 23:26

As per a request

Note that there is an additional fleet coming up, with a second Corps, but it is 20 hours out, so is not included.

Ships near Port Hagras:
2 Titan CVN (Golden Falcon import)
2 Franklin Osis CVL
2 Toryu BB
2 Firestorm Arsenal Ship
4 Hiragi CA (1 damaged, 33% of main armament offline, dead in the water)
7 Carrack CG
21 Sparrowhawk DDG (1 damaged, 22 knot reduced speed, 33% of VLS offline)
9 Sniper DD
7 Prowler FFG (1 damaged, still combat capable)
9 Hunter FF
6 Tarantula LCS
6 Conqueror SSK
6 Interdictor II SSG (Firebolt)
11 Moray II SSN

Reinforcing ships (SE of main fleet - 4 hours to SSM range):
2 Nicholas Kerensky CVN
4 Carrack CG
8 Sparrowhawk DDG
4 Sniper DD
4 Prowler FFG
4 Hunter FF
4 Moray II SSN

Combined Aircraft (both fleets)
120xF-14
180xF-35C
48xF-35B
60xA-12
20xEF-35C
8xEF-35B
20xE-68 AWACS
8xE-35W AEW
52xS-67 ASW
12xES-67 SIGINT
228xMH-60R ASW
30xSH-2G ASW
22xMH-60S Knighthawk

Also in the area
1xModified Chimera SSGN (24xCrossbolt ASM)

Ground Units being delivered:
XVII Corps (City Stalkers) - 130,000 total personnel
-68th Urban Combat Division (Doghouse) - Merkava 4SJ, Nova Cat
-127th Urban Combat Division (Alley Cats) - Merkava 4SJ, Nova Cat
-49th Armored Division (Bulldozers) - Iron Cheetah II, Mist Lynx
-72nd Mechanized Infantry Division (Steamrollers) - Iron Cheetah II, Mist Lynx
-17th Armored Cavalry Regiment (Blockbusters) - Timberwolf, Mist Lynx
Also, 5 Corps artillery brigades (72x155mm SPH, 198xMLRS), 1 Corps Recon Brigade (1 Force Recon battalion, 3 armored recon battalion), 1 Corps Aviation Brigade (72xAH-93C), 1 Corps Air Defense Brigade

An Airborne Infantry Division has also been flown in, and is already in place.

All infantrymen carry a sidearm and assorted grenades (number and type depends on role and preference). Anyone without a rifle has at least an MP-7 as a backup weapon. There is also a stock of shotguns and SMGs available to replace some rifles if needed.
Troops in Urban Combat Divisions will often substitute SMGs and Shotguns for many, or most, of their rifles. They will also have a larger number of AT4s and SRAWs.
In mechanized units, one squad from each combat platoon is equipped with the Land Warrior integrated combat system.

Mechanized Infantry Squad:
3xIFV Crew
4xRiflemen (G36)
1xGrenadier (OICW)
1xAnti-Tank Gunner (G36 & AT-4 or SRAW)
1xMachine Gunner (SAW)
10 Total

Platoon Level Additions (direct combat only)
1xSAM Team (1 G36, 1 Stinger launcher)
1xSharpshooter Team (2xMSG-90)

Company Level Additions (direct combat only)
3xJavelin Team (2 G36, 1 Javelin CLU each)

Airborne Infantry Squad
4xRiflemen (G36)
1xGrenadier (OICW)
1xAnti-Tank Gunner (AT-4 or SRAW)
2xMachine Gunner (SAW)

Platoon Level Additions
3xMachine Gun Team (1 G36, 1 MG3 each)
1xSAM Team (1 G36, 1 Stinger launcher)
1xSharpshooter Team (2xMSG-90)

Company Level Additions
4xLight Mortar Team (1 G36, 1 60mm Mortar each)
6xJavelin Team (1 G36, 1 Javelin CLU each)

Battalion Level Additions
6xMedium Mortar Team (2 G36, 1 82mm Mortar each)
30xHMMWV (20xTOW, 10xAGL)

Clan Smoke Jaguar

13-01-2004, 23:28

double post

Omz222

14-01-2004, 00:49

Also as on request:

-Troops Stationed at Port Hagras [Metropolitican Area]: Approx. 95,000 Army & National Guard (Reserve) - 7 Divisions - 3 Mech Inf, 3 Inf.
Main Equipments: ~720 Timberwolf & Iron Cheetah ADS tanks, 870 Nova Cat & Mist Lynx IFVs, 150 M2001A1 Crusader & M2012 Cavalier SPH, 48 M270A1 MLRS, 72 AH-93C Firebird Attack Helo, etc. (also air defence vehicles, engineering vehicles, M113 variants, HMMWVs, etc.)
-Troop stationed near Port Hagras: Approx. 80,000 Army & NG - 5 Divisions - 4 Mech. Inf., 1 Armored
-Other combat personnel stationed at Port Hagras: Approx. 7200 Militia (hope I got that right) integrated into population, most armed with rifles, machine guns, basic sniper rifles, assualt weapons (RPGs/LAWs), MANPADS (shoulder fired SAMs).

-Ships stationed near Port Hagras:
The Marx Aviation Cruiser Battlegroup (I do believe it is posted in the IC thread as OOC info)
Various additional coastal patrol cutters (9 lghtly armed w/ guns, some w/ min-Harpoon launchers)

-Basic infantryman armament (standard):
Riflesman/fireteam Ldr: O18/M8 Assualt Rifles, assorted grenades (mostly frag), Garbon Pistol/M9.
Grenadier: O18 with M203, assorted grenades, Garbon Pistol
Squad Ldr: M8 Assualt Rifles/Modified M4, assorted grenades, sidearm
Auto. Rifleman: M249 SAW, assorted grenades, sidearm
Adv. Marksman (Sniper): M82, MSG-90 or M200 (Hope I got that right... It is that Western Asian sniper rifle with the .308 rounds)
In most Mech. Inf. divisions in the city area, many personnel use SMGs, shotguns, various assualt weapons. Some squads are also employing Land Warrior system & other comm. equipment.
Support personnel carry a sidearm. If not, they will carry a carbine.
Other weapons for different infantry include HIWS (76mm rounds launcher from Western Asia), SHIPON rockets, AT4, Black Fly MANPADS, Javelin ATGM (Anti-Tank guided missile) launchers, medium mortars, etc.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

14-01-2004, 11:48

Deep breath.
Calm down.
Deep breath.
Calm down.
Deep breath.
Calm down (yes, I'm pissed).

Okay, here's the deal. The OC attack on my fleet is not acceptable. There's no way it can happen as it is stated, at least not without cloaking devices or teleportation units. I made a nice page-long post arguing this, but finally calmed down while typing. I can go back and post it anytime you want me to though.

Okay OC, there are only two ways I'll accept the attack.
1) Suffer dearly for managing to get that close. It might as well be a trap for the kind of pounding you'll get
-Immediately after all those missiles are launched, the OC ships will come under direct gunfire attack from my Toryu battleships (250 km range ERGM). They would be well within gun range by now. Dozens of ships are crippled when their guns, missile launchers, radars, radio antennae, and helicopter decks are knocked offline by DPICM bomblets (over 10,000 dual purpose bomblets a minute, from 42 shells, will do that). If your carriers are being kept with the rest of your ships, at least one will have flight operations completely halted by DPICM damage to the flight deck. Natually most helicopters or aircraft on the decks of any ships that are hit, and maybe a couple on patrol, will also go bye bye. Remember, there's nothing you can do about shells, other than stop me from getting close enough, which you never gave yourself the chance to do.
-With many of the OC ships' defenisve systems offline, the hundreds of antishipping missiles from the dozens of ships within range will really wreak havoc. Losses will be extreme
-Over half of the striking aircraft will be shot down. There's plenty of SAMs to go round. They can manage to get close enough to launch their missiles if they go in at high speed though, but the F/A-18s are barely fast enough, and would have to come in at high altitude. Otherwise, the NADSAMs will reach them before they can launch. There's also orbiting and returning fighters that would get off some shots.
-The vast majority of the missiles will be shot down, and nothing will reach the carriers. Not that Yakhonts and Harpoons are going to hurt the carriers to begin with. About 40 Yakhonts and a similar portion of harpoons will hit something. Maybe 84 total hits, and say 18-24 ships sunk or crippled. However, that is toning my defenses down considerably, so you'll have to launch a large number of additional missiles to make up for it. Otherwise, I'm letting over twice as many through as I should.

The main killer for you will be my battleships. They'll pave the way for other attacks and really decimate your fleet. There's no way you can claim Yakhont range of my main fleet without being within range of their guns, and there's no defense once your in gun range. That's the reason you'll suffer so heavily.

2) Rewrite the attack to give me a chance to fire first, and direct the attacks at targets that can actually be reached. Outer escorts and the bombardment group only.

Omz222

14-01-2004, 16:13

2) Rewrite the attack to give me a chance to fire first, and direct the attacks at targets that can actually be reached. Outer escorts and the bombardment group only.

Well, I think that he might just have missed the attack we had on him (NADSAMs at aircraft, Tomahawks at carriers, Shinma/Thunderbolt/Firebolt/Harpoon at escorts), not really that he just ignored the attack on him on puprose. We'll figure this our some ways.

I'll also admit that I speeded up a bit, and that's my mistake, sorry. But however, during that "OC-Free" time, it should be noted that the missiles (Thunderbolt and Firebolt) I fired from the missile boats and corvettes were targeted at the SC ships. But the Tomahawks and ship-launched Harpoons/Shinmas were launched in a direct response to OC's attack (and an attack on SC's ships), if I remember it clearly, and the aircraft-launched Harpoons/Shinmas/Firebolts are also targeted at both fleets as part of the plan. Plus the heavy ECM from the EF-35s and that "radar jammer cruise missiles" accompanying the missiles however, it should provide a good cover. [BTW, there are bad things about jamming, so they are not that "invincible"]

Also just a note however, I will send a few more ships (which will likely to meet the rest of the OC/SC combined fleet at the strait with a bombardment by shells from undamaged coastal artilleries), and there are a few attack subs just waiting there for their food, while moving very slowly to the CSJ fleet position.

16-01-2004, 06:04

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Omni Conglomerates

16-01-2004, 06:07

Dear Clan Smoke Jaguar,

Get the porcupine out of your butt, man! There are few people I know who take a game so personally. I’ve played many a D&D game where one of the players threw a hissy-fit when one of their characters died. Don’t be like them, dammit! I play nationstates to be away from childish people like that.

Now, while I admit my naval attack may have been a bit hasty, realize that I have been a bit out of it and haven’t been able to keep up with certain details. One example is the range of the yakhont. I don’t keep up with naval statistics and someone told me that would be an effective missile to use. To be honest, I really don’t care about naval warfare. To me it is boring and too machine like. I launch missiles at him, he launches missiles at me. It is like one of those first edition D&D games played under a bad DM. It almost makes me want to be a medieval nation when a war goes on like that. Ground combat, more specifically urban close quarters combat, is where my expertise lies. That is why I got into the war, good ground warfare. No matter how many planes you have in the air and ships you have in the sea, you cannot win the war if you can’t keep the soldier on the ground. Air and sea superiority helps a great deal, but only a fool thinks that they win the war. This war RP is going well so far, don’t screw it up. Be tolerant of mistakes and point them out without being a dickcheese. In February when Sniper Country, Neo Praetoria (My first nation that is no longer mine.), and Omni Conglomerates, turn one, I hope to still be doing this RP and I hope it doesn’t suck. I printed out a couple of pages of this RP for reference. It took 49 standard size printer paper pages to print it all. We have a book going here, people. Let’s not ruin it. Perhaps I angered you with my obvious and admitted ignorance to the workings of naval warfare which I think is just a bunch of boring bullcrap. You must think my knowledge of urban combat and general city warfare an awful bore. We must both stick to our key knowledge and help the other (as much as possible while still keeping up the competition) to make a great RP. You use your library of knowledge on naval and air combat and whatever else it is you know, and I will use my expertise in urban combat, general urban planning and engineering, and my moderate knowledge in the workings of chemistry to keep things interesting.

Anyway CSJ, while one day I hope to converse over the finer points of the Atlas and the Daishi and how a Supernova could easily take them both out, we currently have a war to fight. So remember, remove that porcupine from your sphincter and enjoy the game. Thank you and have a nice day.

Sincerely yours,
(The) Omni Conglomerates

The Omni Conglomerates. We aren’t so evil that our Board members eat the tender, delectable flesh of a young human baby before each meeting, but we’re close!

Omz222

16-01-2004, 06:36

Well, overall I suppose that our part could get more "lax". For me, I coopreated with SC with the whole "SC gov't said my gov't is planning something to piss off SC gov't" and the whole invasion for fun too (since I haven't had a fun modern-tech, everyone-go along war since July... Anyone here know and remember that whole Royal Palm wars? Good times, first major war for me). On my side, I can testify that me too wished that this RP could be meaningful and everyone could have a good time. No offense to anyone, but anyone seen situations where someone just send a CVBG with cruisers and subs carrying a few hundred of their new "1337 new soviet AS-23512124215 and SS-N-324241 cruise missiles that can go hypersonic and has a range of 5000km!!!1111" carrying all these nukes and just launch them at the victim country, say they are winning, and leave the whole war? Ever seen the kind of RPs where someone just send 1000 capital ships, launch tens of thousands of Tomahawks at the victim country, flood the victim's harbour with 5 million troops with 20,000 tanks? Certainly, I'd say that this RP gotta to be one the best strictly modern tech RP ever in my NS experience as of now, and when it comes to these arguments, I admit that I am worried about this war being turned into another one of the ignorefests where everyone just blanket ignore each other to one end. As a matter of fact, I am going to admit that I do regularly research about aviation and air warfare topics. But does that refrain me from viewing this as a game? No.

Now, I'm not blaming CSJ for being very specific about naval and air combat or missiles sometimes nor OC and SC for sometimes being very specific about their types of explosives and chemistry sometimes. I am denying to make any more specific comments about the details in the last 4 posts here right now, but my point here is: let's just get over our mistakes and rant, learn to not make any big mistakes and be more "aware", while still keeping the concept of a game in our heads.

Overall, I hope no one would get offended or angry by this sudden spark of "new posts" here, and I also hope that no one would go on a rampage about this. Let's just review our mistakes, and think about how we should coopreate with others in this game. Yes, I know we are trying to be calm. Yes, I know this may only get people angry. Yes, I know both sides are "disturbed". Simply, everyone has their strength and weaknesses.

Let's just refresh our heads, and well, just make it "fresh" again -- if you know what I mean. So go enjoy our lives, and don't take the game as where we just argue all day in this OOC thread, whether constantly to no end or not.

Thank you for listening [CSJ, SC, OC],
Player of Omz222.
"Incorporating patriotic beliefs and propaganda into modern democracy societies since 1963!"

PS - In fact, I have heard other people's comments about this RP too, about its quality and the ability to go on with minimal arguing, bad RP, and "i send in 500 tanks and fire my new kornet-22425 missiles!11"-like posts. In fact, one of the teachers at an offsite place called Role Play University (where we teach curious and "motivated" players how to do the basic RP and stuff) have taken this as a rolemodel of war RPs. Let's keep it that way. Look at this as a Tom Clancy novel with more "openness" (not restricted with certain characters in spotlight). Don't have this novel end with a "My fleet is gone" or "All my troops are pulling out" as a result of ignore.

I also liked how CSJ begins to be more "open" anyways (let missiles get through, etc.) and how SC and OC have the willingness to correct their mistakes. Let's keep it from getting worsened, and improve it even more.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

16-01-2004, 09:13

Okay, you'll have to forgive me here. I've apparently been taking out bit of my frustration here (there's plenty to go around), and while I've been trying to keep things down, it's not always easy. You'll have to excuse me, but I find is extremely irritating when you defeat systems and units I've spent hours upon hours researching, simply by ignoring the facts. Don't you get upset when you work very hard on something and it ends up amounting to nothing? I know I certainly do.
I've probably been expecting a bit much from you though, and I apologize for that. I'll also apologize for the fact that I have a tendency to incite arguments. They're one of my favorite methods of learning, and sometimes I go overboard.
Another thing I really hate is repeating myself, and not getting listened to. This was the third time in a row that an incident like this has happened, and I don't believe in coincidences. I'm not asking you to know everything, but I am asking you to pay some attention.

And for the record, the Yakhont wouldn't do much to a carrier. It would take dozens of them to put down a Nimitz, and mine are a bit bigger than that. You'll find that there are virtually no missiles still in production that can take down a carrier. For that, you need to look at older units (Tomahawk, SS-N-19, SS-N-12, SS-N-9, SS-N-7, SS-N-3), or you could put a nuclear warhead on a smaller missile, though that might prove counterproductive.
The other thing to do is get a submarine or two in, but remember that it will still take several torpedoes (probably half a dozen) to take the ship down due to its sheer size.

Barbarosea

16-01-2004, 14:24

Off the topic, I'm making a post tonight.

17-01-2004, 03:15

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Omz222

17-01-2004, 03:30

I also would like to find out if there is going to be any ground warfare... ever.

Hopefully some troops could get to Port Hagras and some could still get through the bombing (by air & artillery systems), in which case at night, there will be some urban combat going.

BTW, any info on how much troops/equipments you are planning to land?

Clan Smoke Jaguar

17-01-2004, 06:27

Okay then, CSJ, what do you want, mainly me, to do? Pardon me if this post sounds sarcastic or mad, but I am really being serious, and none of the other. Do you want me to go ahead and have all my ships destroyed? You want OC's ships destroyed? What? I'm not sure. I am willingly taking losses in this battle because I know if I screw up by shooting some missiles down that I'm not supposed to, I'll get yelled at. I'm not trying to sound mad or anything, but I simply want to know what you want me, SC, to do.

I also would like to find out if there is going to be any ground warfare... ever.

Preciate it.
You don't have to have all your ships destroyed unless you keep pushing forward. Most admirals would have retreated by now if they were in your shoes. As for OC, he didn't mention which he wanted, so I'm going for option 1, so he'll be taking a licking. He doesn't have to lose all his ships, but most will be at least put up for repairs for awhile. DPICM, though somewhat unconventional and not fatal by itself, doess really nasty things to modern warships.

As for shooting down too many missiles, there's nothing wrong with knocking out 75-80% of them even with Phalanx and SM-2s, or more in many cases. Naginatas and Shinmas (as well as Penguins) will be on the lower end as they're harder to detect and track. Missiles like the Yakhont/Moskit/Granit and Thunderbolt/Firebolt/Crossbolt are vulnerable to IR and passive radar guided missiles. If you don't have those in abundance, you will have trouble countering them.

As for the ground war, I'm working on sneaking some infiltrators in for reconnaissance, but the large convoys coming into Hagras are obviously going to come before the main campaign starts.

Finally, as requested, I have 3 E-3Cs and and 5 E-767s on station covering the city of Honjaksgrad. Each AWACS bird has a full squadron of fighters under its control. That gives 96 fighters (36 F-23C and 60 F/A-22C). There's also a few squadrons of strike aircraft hanging around for targets of opportunity. They include 12 A-114s and 48 JSFs.

Barbarosea

17-01-2004, 06:32

Ok, I'll wait to see what Omz has up before I do the opening attack.

17-01-2004, 06:35

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Omz222

17-01-2004, 06:47

Ok, I'll wait to see what Omz has up before I do the opening attack.
Thank you, and a few concerns about your post.

First. Sorry if I sounds a bit impatient, but frankly, I just can't accept that the Wasps appearing on my coast just after that small vague OOC announcement. Even that it has been a while since the OOC announcement, it would be best to let the opponent know that your ships are closer to me already, so I can try to engage it or just acknowledge the action, before you actually land it. I'm not really blaming you -- it may just be a confusion or a misunderstanding between the both sides. While you did say that they will be here soon, I did not know that they are already up my coast and just outside my waters. Or, I should mention that right now the time is still the morning on the same day as the midnight attack, we are playing "by-the"post" here. Not that I would definately send a bunch of bombers and bomb the hell out of your ships, but it would simply be more easy for us to mention things beforehand (even more).

Secondly, I do still have a few squadrons of Raptors (12 a/c per squadron) still running on patrol, plus other aircraft on alert at nearby airfields. While your aircraft may regain air superiority, expect a counterattack soon ;)

Also, a note that since you bought 15 Wasps, I do believe that each Wasp class amphibious assualt ship could only carry a 1600-1894 Marine detachment. 15 X 1900 = 27,000. If you are using sealift ships that are named "Wasp class", then keep in mind that I bombed the harbours, and repairing them is not easy.

Thank you for your understanding.

17-01-2004, 06:51

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Barbarosea

17-01-2004, 06:53

1) I mentioned that they were coming soon. Then today I mentioned that they were very close, there still not here

2) I'm not using them like normal people. They go to my nation, load up, then come here, get acap to the shore, then my 40-man PT boats unload them, see, no ports involved. (Also how we get supplies in)

3) I will, don't worry, I have that planned :twisted:

Omz222

17-01-2004, 07:02

1) I mentioned that they were coming soon. Then today I mentioned that they were very close, there still not here.

Well, I don't really recall that you mentioned anything about the ships in this past week -- or, for the past page, for that matter.

2) I'm not using them like normal people. They go to my nation, load up, then come here, get acap to the shore, then my 40-man PT boats unload them, see, no ports involved. (Also how we get supplies in)
Keep in mind that we are still on the 10th day of the war -- the ships could come here and drop their load (still, Wasps could only carry a combat detachment of about 1900 maximum each, no matter how many and how different your landing crafts are), but they'll also need to travel back and once again return -- which can't be done in a flash, plus that there will still be a maximum of a few tens of thousand troops landed at one time -- not 250,000.

Barbarosea

17-01-2004, 07:04

I know, but it's faster then ships that hold 700 ;)

Omz222

17-01-2004, 07:06

I know, but it's faster then ships that hold 700 ;)True, they are not that slow, but still the "only 27,000 troops can land" point stands, BTW. Unless your 250,000 sentence meant that you have 250,000 troops in total on my soil.

Barbarosea

17-01-2004, 07:10

we've been transporting people the whole time, and I thought it was like a bit later then that, dangit

Omz222

17-01-2004, 07:11

we've been transporting people the whole time, and I thought it was like a bit later then that, dangit
But, still like what I said ages before in the same thread, you gotta show it clearly so that people could know, especially in numbers that can affect the whole RP much (that is, the number of troops) :wink:

Also, just a note, our time is essentially on a "post-by-post" basis -- each post "moves" the time practically. Not the usual "one NS day each [whatever time] RL" basis.

17-01-2004, 07:15

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Barbarosea

17-01-2004, 07:16

Yes, the 250,000 meant in total, and It's down to 200,000 now, when the WASP's arrive, it will be 227,000

Omz222

17-01-2004, 07:50

Off topic:

Has anybody seen Jeepers Creepers 2? If nobody says yes, I will cry.
OT: Unfortunately no. But I don't want to see you cry either :P

Clan Smoke Jaguar

17-01-2004, 07:53

Off topic:

Has anybody seen Jeepers Creepers 2? If nobody says yes, I will cry.
I happen to both work in a theater and enjoy horror movies, so yes, I've seen it.

17-01-2004, 07:54

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17-01-2004, 07:55

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Omz222

17-01-2004, 07:58

Ah, that's good :twisted:

I'm not the kind of person who watches movies a lot anyways (believe it or not, the last time I've seen a movie in a theatre is at... February I think?), so don't cry on me :P

Anyways, although I've just searched on google about it, what is it about exactly?

17-01-2004, 08:01

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

17-01-2004, 08:07

I watch movies all the time. Not in the theatre, I just wait for the DVD.

Basically, the Creeper sieges a school bus and eats people. Only it disapointed me because the black guy was 2nd to die in this one, not keeping with tradition. But who cares about the movie? Nicki Lynn Aycox... my wallpaper!
The only things I really liked about the movie were the opening and ending. I tend to be less impressed with effects shows, and more so with good atmosphere (hence my preference of The Ring and The Others over most other recent horror films), and JC2 was mostly showcasing the nifty Creeper effects.
Well, at least they didn't pull something utterly pathetic like House of the Dead.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

17-01-2004, 08:09

Oh yeah, and I normally don't watch movies much in the theater that often myself. However, since I can get in for free, and often at prescreenings when there isn't much of a crowd (and sometimes none at all), I take the opportunity.

17-01-2004, 08:16

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

17-01-2004, 08:27

Well, to each his own. Personally, I think The Item is the dumbest horror movie I've ever seen, and so far, everyone I know who's seen it agrees with me.

17-01-2004, 21:20

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Barbarosea

18-01-2004, 02:23

Cool SC

Omz222

18-01-2004, 03:07

OOC: I will have my movements for the Bay of Hagras up at a later time. I am taking longer this time to make sure I don't screw anything up. Ground warfare is so much more fun.

I finally agree with you :P Even for me this naval and air combat is too much... Yet I still did not expose how much alcohol soem of my officers consume, and how screwed up some new Army recruits' tactics are.

In any case, SC, will Op. Backslider feature ground (possibly even urban?) combat? BTW, about that post you made abotu your GRUNTS, interesting.

18-01-2004, 03:21

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18-01-2004, 03:29

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18-01-2004, 08:05

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

19-01-2004, 05:52

Bay of Hagras, The Middle of the Omni Conglomerates Battlegroup

"I need up to date info, now! Where are those reports of current enemy positions? I need information people! They could be launching all hell at us and we would never know a think until --." said Captian Ulbrek Njalfsteid of the OCS Valka, the point cruiser for the battlegroup, before he was cut off by a bomblet, one of many, that hit his bridge and other parts of his ship. The ship was rocked severely. It would have stayed afloat, had it not been carrying one of the specially fitted TNM torpedoes. It evaporated in a flash of light, taking a destroyer and a patrol boat with it, the Frej and Voland respectively. There was roughly half of the destroyer left when it sank into the water, looking as if it had just been cleanly sliced in two without there being a second piece left in the solid state. There were similar catastrophies all along the first and second battlegroup vanguards, minus the massive explosions. The bombardment lasted for roughly ten minutes. Some of the deadly DPICM bomblets were released before they got in killing range, falling short of the battlegroup. Most, however, came into range and detonated with the majority of the rounds being absorbed by the first and second vanguards of the battlegroup. After the storm of bomblets, the ships were hit not five minutes later by a wave of missiles. MDS, CIWS, and other countermeasures were already into effect when they came in, but they were for the most part not needed. The burning hulks of the front two rows of ships absorbed most of the hits with only a few ships getting hit by the missiles.

Total losses:

(10) Recon boats
(12) Destroyers
(9) Frigates
(2) Cruisers

Total remaining:

(1) Recon boat
(8.) Destroyers
(27) Frigates
(4) Cruisers
(4) Carriers
(2) Battlecruisers
(4,250) Zodiacs filled with mixed groups of angry sailors

OOC: Movements of my fleet will come tomorrow.

Losses are a more than a little light here, and if that's the balance, I'm going to edit my post to drop the number of shells and missiles expended to the appropriate level (40-60% reduction). Then we can do a second round that's a little more one-sided, or I can drop my own losses by 33% so things are evened out.
For the record, my losses were about 175,000 tons, and using my best guess without knowing the specifics of OCs ships, I'd say 125-130,000 tons were taken out of his fleet. With this engagement, we should have broken out about even at least, and my destroyers and cruisers are about 33-50% bigger than their contemporaries, so one going down is a much greater loss.

Omz222

19-01-2004, 05:58

Just some notes to go along with CSJ's post. Not necessarily a requirement to change losses, but notes.

1) The vast majority of missiles are targeted at a broad variety of different ships from both the OC fleet and the SC fleet, not just some particular ship. Of course, it wouldn't make any sense for my 100 Harpoons to just target 5 ships, when there are a lot of other targets of opportunity. However, I do not know where CSJ has fired his shells exactly (since it seems that the area OC's fleet cover is a large one), so I cannot make any judgement on that.
2) It should be also noted that the 16 Tomahawks I fired and the Naginatas CSJ fired are all targeted at carriers. Only carriers, Aside from half of the Tomahawks I fired at some SC carriers, the rest are actually fired at OC's carriers. Still, I'm not sure about what percentage of CSJ's Naginatas are targeted at the OC carriers, so I cannot make any judgement on that.
3) There are some missiles of mine that targeted at the OC frigates. That is, most of my aircraft-launched Thunderbolts, plus about 10-15% of my aircraft-launched Harpoons and Shinmas (medium) combined.

19-01-2004, 06:28

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Omz222

19-01-2004, 06:41

I actually thought about shooting more missiles down myself, but thought about being called for godmodding or something. But now we have hundreds of Zodiacs everywhere, and as you'll see in my next post, it will be very fun.
Actually it's not really a problem, as long as your defence are actually capable of doing it. One thing I also remember was that your CIWS are 20mm, and that may cause a problem to quickly penetrate the faster Firebolt and Thunderbolt missiles (since they are pratically updated Yakhonts, and Yakhonts do have the armor to deflect 20mm rounds). If your ship has it, the RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) is a good weapon.

Links: http://designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-116.html
http://globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/ram.htm

About the "orgaization" thing however, it is possible for him to have "layers" of air defence (which is "employed" by CSJ and I), and that is quite effective.

19-01-2004, 06:52

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Omz222

19-01-2004, 07:00

Well, I'll just consider myself a sport. Maybe the RAMs will be emplaced on later ships to come out. I wouldn't get awfully comfortable, because, as OC said, there are a lot of Zodiacs with a lot of pissed Marines. :wink:
Do they carry any guns? The sailors on my rescue boats do :twisted:

19-01-2004, 07:03

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

19-01-2004, 07:30

For the record (I guess I should have mentioned this - my fault for forgetting), my battleships were 200 km from the ships that fired the Yakhonts, and would be able to reach every vessel within 50-60 km of those (depending on speed, position, and direction). Every ship that was detected and within range got at least one full turret salvo (3 shells), and several got 2-3 salvos. Because we went for spread rather than concentration, it would take 1-3 shells to cripple most escorts. A carrier would take 2-3 to cripple. Naturally, since these are inertially guided to a specific point rather than a target, some will miss completely, and others might nail two ships at once. Also, not all the submunitions will strike a ship. A good portion will land in the surrounding sea, especially with small escorts. With those Zodiacs all over the place, some of those would be hit too, and one hit will obviously kill everyone in a zodiac, and possibly sink or kill people in nearby ones through shrapnel. Finally, these use M77 submunitions, so about 1 in 20 will be a hazardous dud (won't detonate on impact but will still remain live, capable of detonating later if disturbed). Though a liability when used on land, that little fallacy will be a serious problem for repair crews.

The effects of the DPICM are mostly disabling systems. They'll blow small holes in the deck and superstructure, disabling aircraft in hangars, missiles in VLS cells, and carrier flight decks (try taking off on a runway full of potholes with no working catapults, or better yet landing on one with no arresting wires or nets). They might get lucky and detonate ammunition or missiles, or possibly damage the engines in smaller ships, but generally there will be minimal structural damage. The fragmentation effect is where the real damage will come from, and it will damage radars, guns, aircraft on deck, missile launchers, CIWS systems, pretty much eliminating the ship's ability to fight. The missiles were a follow up to sink ships that have already been renered combat ineffective. Most of the missiles would get through because many of the systems for stopping them would be down. Otherwise, they can retreat and head in for repairs.

Edit: 1 other thing. The Naginata has a 2-way data link and an EO sensor. The operator can both see what's in front of the missiles and control them, steering them around less lucrative targets to hit better ones, and they obviously wouldn't be slamming into burned out hulks.

19-01-2004, 07:45

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

19-01-2004, 16:55

Oh yeah, I need to remind OC that there are a large number of SAMs engaging his aircraft after they fire their missiles. Several dozen should be going down from that.

20-01-2004, 04:03

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Omz222

20-01-2004, 06:01

20-01-2004, 06:08

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

20-01-2004, 06:36

Well, I know any objection of mine will be put down, but this isn't really an objection I guess.

Is there any defense known to man for a submarine attack? I mean, that seems pretty simple- fire off a lot of missiles from way out of mine or OCs range, and just destroy all our ships. Seems sorta odd to me, and I would have no objections to it if there were something we could do to avert them. Meh.
There is. In the USN strategy in the '80es of provide basic defence against Soviet SSGNs (the new, quieter ones are a big threat to Carrier battle groups, not mentioning they carry those big seaskimmering missiles) was to get attack submarines ahead of the CVBG a few kms away, so not only they can "meet" the Soviet SSGNs first, but also destroying them before they actually fire their missiles. The US subs in the 80es would also often stay quiet for a while and let the fast-moving submarines (that are attacking the group with missiles) to come to their trap, and then fire their torpedoes.

No matter what the aircraft can do with its light airdropped torpedoes, no matter how many torpedo tubes and ASW rocket launchers a surface ship can fire, attack subs are the only true effective ASW platforms out there.
To elaborate a little further: though most submarines have long range antishipping capabilities, they usually don't use them, prefering to fire off their missiles while much closer. They do this for two reasons: 1) this dramatically reduces the chance for enemy ships to react, making hits much more likely - important with their limited loads and often autonomous operation, and 2) they have to know where their target is. This involves either risking detection by surfacing and getting the information from other sources (and risking both visual and radar detection), or getting close enough to detect the enemy on their own.
As such, a submarine net comprised of ASW aircraft, ships, and submarines is deployed to detect the enemy sub well before it can find the main targets (carriers and transport vessels). If a sub pulls off a coordinated standoff attack so it can launch its missiles at long range, there's no defense other than trying to shoot them down as normal. Outside of that, you might get lucky and have either a sub or aircraft near enough to the launch site to engage, but more than likely, the missiles will be away before anything can happen, so all you'll get is a measure of revenge.

21-01-2004, 06:06

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Omz222

21-01-2004, 06:15

Understood, hopes OC to get back with some good results. Anyways, I probably won't reply until OC gets back, another delay for the RP...

Ferrussia

22-01-2004, 07:17

Omz222

23-01-2004, 02:42

Hey, sorry to bring this up again, but since LF is gone, would I be able to join the RP in some respect? Anything? At all?

Sorry, it's a great RP, and I'm getting a bit antsy watching from the outside. You're all doing great, and I'm a bit eager to join in on my own, particularly considering that I'm sealing off a 3-way alliance with Omz and CSJ (speaking of which, both of you need to check the thread! :P ) and I just lost my IC excuse for not backing Omz right now (Fyreheartian war, which just fell apart because ICON broke up and Fyreheart's being plunged into civil war).

If you still want to keep me out of this, I'll understand - I know from the Fyreheartian RP that balance is very important to having a good RP - but I'd really appreciate being let in on this one. Thanks.

Well, I can say that if SC allows another nation to enter this RP, I'm for Ferrussia. With LF gone from this RP, and with Remiesia once again turning to an Ex-nation (vacation mode can't just keep a nation for 2 months), I would say that I would welcome Ferrussia into this RP if he is accepted, and from my experience he's a decent RPer.

Of course, we still have to listen to what CSJ says, plus the opinions from the "other side" (Barbarosea, SC, Omni Conglomerates).

Omni Conglomerates

24-01-2004, 01:44

Hey guys!

Well, we ended up getting second in the tournament. We lost to Jackson Prep, but I will eat their children someday anyway, so its a win.

Okay, now, before we get into it, I want to clear up some things. The SSTD is a real system. My uncle is a Navy technician, and he gave me a pamphlet on the SSTD system. Plus, it's 2015, so I figured why not come out with the SSTD II?

As for Ferrussia entering the war, well, that's a different story. I don't know what SC will have to say about it, but here is my opinion. You just got out of your own war, and I guess it was good, but I wouldn't know. Shifting troops from one war to another that fast is going to be a huge strain. That and it will cost a lot of dough. You would probably need to take a bit of time before you entered the war, as you and your troops would need to recover from the war you just got out of.

Omz222

24-01-2004, 01:50

Hmm, what's this tournament? From what I heard from SC, some strategy-related thing?

As for Ferrussia entering the war, well, that's a different story. I don't know what SC will have to say about it, but here is my opinion. You just got out of your own war, and I guess it was good, but I wouldn't know. Shifting troops from one war to another that fast is going to be a huge strain. That and it will cost a lot of dough. You would probably need to take a bit of time before you entered the war, as you and your troops would need to recover from the war you just got out of.

Actually, the war ended a few while ago, with the enemy surrundering. The invasion didn't had a huge strain on the Ferrussian side: just some ships got sank.

Also, I need to know how many Tomahawks have been fired. Thanks.

EDIT: Finally, I would like to note that I haven't fired one single torpedoes, as I do not even have the range to do so. I've only fired some anti-ship missiles.

Omni Conglomerates

24-01-2004, 02:12

Mind Masters. Just some knowledge bowl thing where you see how smart you are in a tournament. Pretty easy, really.

I'll let SC say whatever about Ferrussia later, and then I will say something again.

Um, well, Tomahawks are going to be going for quite a while, so say about fifty every minute for about five minutes?

You haven't? Well then, I'll just keep the losses, and edit out the SSTD part.

EDIT:

I'll quickly do a quick run on the TNM thing.

If you shoot it down or blow it up far away, that's probably better than it hitting the ship. The torpedo will explode in an amazing inferno, hot as the sun, and evaporate the water in the area. Water will quickly rush due to gravity and engulf the water-void zone. This will cause a relatively small "splash-down" effect, or a pretty small tidal wave for a little ways. If it hit a ship, the ship would evaporate. Wouldn't really hurt, though.

24-01-2004, 03:52

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Omz222

24-01-2004, 06:21

(Omz, does he have an arms contract for you? )
Actually, I do use his arms (as in weaponeries, not in those arms on your body). But no offense taken :P

1) If Ferrussia would like, I could do a briefing for him.
2) Of course, there would be (although, less strain on more powerful economies that are more "invincible" to economic damages wars will cause). I'd expect my stocks go downhill, my civilians gun factories now directed to produce assualt rifles, supermarkets being "robbed" empty by hungry civilians everyday, and the government just can't give all teh food ration to the 1 billion plus people. Also keep in mind, since you (SC) are using a large amount of force, that will also impact your economy (although I will also try other tactics in the end of the war to "punish" your government adn to hurt your economy even much more :twisted: ).
3) No, that would be too early for him. But if Hagras is conquored/burnt/doomed/leveled/whatever, I would say Hagras is definately no chance. But I guess he could be allowed to participate in a final "counterattack" on Honjaksgrad I'm slowly planning.
5) Well, I'd say that is true. Term 2 for me in this grade is adding much more piles of homework (and works to review for exams), and it's definately taking my time away. Since applying for "my future" the Advanced Placement program?), it is going to strain my time of course. Overall, I can manage it.
From what I see, the war is only on its beginning-median stage. Let's hope that we can all be available in the next few months, and that NS I will still be open for this roleplay to end :wink:
Nonetheless, even in this stage, it's going good.

For the donations however, since I don't want me to be even more vulnverable, I mainly shared intelligence with Ferrussia as you can see. Not a huge strain to my military, at least.

EDIT: If no one really requests my post urgently (which I am going to delay the losses from the tomahawks since they will be travelling for more than just several mins, and I would like to keep the "combat stuff" more in unison), then I'll be replying tomorrow morning-noon. Need some break :wink:

Clan Smoke Jaguar

24-01-2004, 06:52

Just a note: Clan Smoke Jaguar's army maintains the capability to participate in two major interregional conflicts. With over 17 million active and reserve troops, that much is not quite the strain it's being made out to be, especially with a 1.5 billion plus population. With my current population, 300,000 men is the equivalent of the US putting about 50,000 troops overseas, and I have a better economy. When you think about it, that's really not all that much. Also, Clan Smoke Jaguar's military has a war fund, where surplus resources (including unspent funds) are stored until they are needed. That fund can sustain the current level of operations for 75 more NS days (at the start of the war, it could have sustained the entire active force for 42 days. I'm using less than half the active force, even now), so if the war ends in the next 2.5 NS months, the only financial losses will be the lost foreign sales. After that, it will be cutting into the budget though.

OC:
I am quite curious as to how you could possibly lose 10 recon boats when you specifically stated in your previous post that you only had 1 left. That seems a bit suspicious to me.

I'm also very iffy about you finding out about the dogs in that manner, especially since you used up all your cheap shots with me already. So, if I see any indiscriminate shooting of dogs due to this, I might just say you nailed a bunch of strays and that not one of mine were bothered. I really don't like to, but when in Rome . . .
And by the way, the collar's wired in more ways than one. :wink:
It's going to blow in his face, so at least one of your men is going to have to lose a hand or two, as well as his vision (permanent, not temporary).

24-01-2004, 06:53

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Omz222

24-01-2004, 06:58

And bear in mind, Omz, if OC has his way, your economy will be in ruin for years...
Not for years, but definately if he has some smart ways, my economy could be seriously hurt.

Ah well, there's always the mining sector :P

24-01-2004, 07:00

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Ferrussia

24-01-2004, 20:25

Hey,

Thanks for being so receptive. I'm glad to be in it, and I understand the concerns about the levels of my deployment. I would expect it would take me at least a week to a week and a half (NS) to get any sort of major combat group into the area, but I'd also like to speak up in my own defense.

The "war" I just got out of fell apart before it got to my soil. There was a large group coming through a neighboring country, but that country is incredibly militant (like every man, woman, and child has a gun, and inter-factional wars keep everyone battle hardened) and didn't appreciate having a massive enemy army arrogantly marching through their land. The enemy forces got hung up, and aside from my 3rd Carrier Fleet (which got clobbered, I'll admit) no actual casualties were incurred by enemy hands.

Granted, the preparations Ferrussia made on the run to meet this "oncoming threat" were heavy, but by no means were all active forces even deployed. It fell apart so quickly, I didn't have time to get everyone to the lines (not that I orignally planned to do so, either).

So in all honesty, the war had a slight economic toll, and perhaps a minor morale one (although it also sparked a great deal of Ferrussian patriotism and anti-imperialist sentiment - both things that would, given SC's role in this war, spark the Ferrussian people's interest in the war - not to mention the fact that we're literally a couple NS days from signing a major alliance with Omz and CSJ). No major problems have stemmed from the brief "war", however.

Sorry about that rant, I'll get to your points:

1) I've been reading it as it develops, so I'm more or less up on the major aspects of the war, although I must admit I am not entirely sure on some of the sub-RPs. A short brief would still be nice, however, and a bearing on where the naval battle is (outside of Hon or Hagras?).

2) See above. Yes, wars have economic impacts, and I'm not forgetting that, but at the same time, much of my active forces (or reserves, for that matter) were never touched.

3) Personally, I think I should be able to help with anything that happens after I get major deployments into Omz (like I said, should take about an NS week - a few days for some of the airmobile divisions), but if you want to cut me out of either engagment, I suppose I can live with that. Cutting me from both would, as far as I know, leave me with nothing to do but mope around in the middle of Omz, waiting for another offensive, but maybe I've missed something.

4) I'm not exactly a military expert (I'm honestly clueless in some areas) and so I wouldn't mind some advice from Omz and CSJ. I don't think I have the expertise to make technical arguments about military things, but if I do, I'll take it easy as you say.

5) RP wars do seem to take quite a while, but I haven't found an antidote for that yet. Hopefully this will run smoothly, however, and I'll do my best to post consistently and keep my end going.

Hope this all checks out for you guys, I'll be anxiously awaiting a final verdict. :)

24-01-2004, 21:54

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Ferrussia

24-01-2004, 22:15

:D I didn't mean to call you imperialist in an OOC way - I meant that ICly, my people are seeing your actions as imperialist.

The reason I think it might be so fast is because they were already on high alert, most were already preparing to deploy, and I would assume that Omz and CSJ would take more of a "send 'em, and we'll figure out where they're going when they get here" attitude. I was referring to 1 week for those troops who were being airlifted - I don't think it should take any more than 12-24 hours in (refueled, obviously) planes, the sealift troops (the bulk of what I'm sending) would be more like 3-4 weeks. Hope that's alright with you, but I'll RP it out slowly anyways so you can throw in suggestions/objections as we go.

(I'm not much of an economist, either. :P )

Clan Smoke Jaguar

25-01-2004, 00:14

CSJ:

On his ships, I think he had a typo on his remaining ships post earlier. If you will look back at his ships going to Hagras at the very very beginning, he had 20 going. Then he lost ten, and he posted he only had one left. Maybe a typing mistake?

Also, I am not sure about the dogs, but what do you mean cheap shots? Your Special Forces got in the city, and I can't remember when you RPed them getting in.

-----

Okay, that's getting irritating... we aren't imperialist. If you want to call us that IC, go for it. But it hurts my feelings in OOC :roll: . Hehehehe...

Um, I don't see how you could have troops in Omz222 within an NS week. That is, unless, you livereally freaking close. It would take the time to decide who was going, how they were going to get there, where they were going to get to, set all things up with Omz222 and CSJ, prep troops, send them on their way, and get them to the field. Maybe this would take a week and I'm wrong again, but who knows.

Yay! We aren't fighting a(nother) military expert!

Okay, so I'll forget the whole economy thingy. I'm not an economist and ain't gonna try to be. Happy hunting.
Okay, good points.
You were right, so I'm letting things drop with the ships. That was my mistake.

As for the forces in Honjaksgrad, I don't have any genuine special forces in the city. Those particular LAST teams are more akin to spies than regular special forces (combat teams are named after the Greek alphabet). They have LAST training and can hold their own in a fight, but they will do so only as a last resort. They're also completely unarmed right now, which is why they shouldn't have had any trouble getting in, since I see no mention of troops indiscriminately shooting at unarmed civilians. Right now, I'm only observing and reporting, and most of the weapons won't even be delivered until later. If you have much of a problem, I could always say I lost a few of the LASTs (there were only about 32 in the city to begin with), which I was planning on noting anyway.

Finding the dog was cheap because he's using what would be an extreme stroke of luck as an excuse to know something ICly that he should only know OOCly. It's also controlling my forces for me (who's to say there are any bugged dogs in the area to begin with?). While an act like that is not necessarily godmodding, it's at least very close to it, and is indeed godmodding when done repeatedly. I have let it go, as long as it's not taken too far.

25-01-2004, 00:29

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Omz222

25-01-2004, 00:31

which is why they shouldn't have had any trouble getting in, since I see no mention of troops indiscriminately shooting at unarmed civilians.

Actually, I believe OC's troops will. But since there are many farms surroundering the city (along with hill, trees, bushes), and OC/SC/Barbarosea didn't mention that they've fortified the area, that could provide yoru LAST people a way to sneak in.

[qupte]Finding the dog was cheap because he's using what would be an extreme stroke of luck as an excuse to know something ICly that he should only know OOCly. It's also controlling my forces for me (who's to say there are any bugged dogs in the area to begin with?). While an act like that is not necessarily godmodding, it's at least very close to it, and is indeed godmodding when done repeatedly. I have let it go, as long as it's not taken too far.[/quote]

While I wouldn't say the "shooting dog" thing is that near godmoding (well... aside from declaring losses), I should note that while there are virtually no/very few wild dogs in the center of the city (more at the ghetto and rural areas), there will be runaway dogs with collars and stuff.

Barbarosea

25-01-2004, 01:00

Yeah, and us in the West sector are exceptonally jumpy.

Also, it depends on the soldier. If they are trigger happy, they might just shoot. It's a "Don't do it, but you won't get in trouble" type-of-thing. Just in case you ppl didn't know, every soldier is equipped with Type-1 or Type-3a battledresses found here. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54752&highlight=)

Barbarosea

25-01-2004, 01:00

25-01-2004, 05:02

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Omz222

25-01-2004, 05:18

A note to CSJ: Don't shoot the D5s yet, I want to test my interceptors :twisted: Thank-You

Too, please don't pop up in your next post or whatever and say that your special forces (from the sea) are already in position or whatever. The insertion vehicles will have to go under our fleet, and if your subs are completely invisible to sonar, then I will assume that my SKIMs are also. The beach also has troops looking over it, from all three allied nations. As there are few troops down on the docks, aside from maybe a few crews working at the two or three undamaged piers.

Unless your fleet is very nearby the harbour, he could have the submarine to sneak up along the south coast (or the east coast, for that matter) of mine, and releasing the submerisible still a distance away.

EDIT: Also a note. Since I bombed almost all the available harbours in Honjaksgrad except one (as you've stated in the IC post back in the B-1B carpetbomb attack), there wouldn't be any much left (unless you repair/build them, which can take a good amount of time). Just a note for insertation points.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

25-01-2004, 08:23

Dogs can be trained to sniff out explosives, and they can locate troops through both hearing and smell. The dogs are also not sniffing out every trap and soldier. They're sniffing out traps in certain areas that may be used for later operations. Obviously, they can't sniff out every trap, which is why several dozen are already dead. The method of marking safe passages is simple. It's the same way they mark their territory.
The only lethal weapons the dogs have are fangs and claws. There are a small number that have cameras or listening devices, but those are not the scouts, and there are very few of them.

The submersible is not completely invisible to sonar, but the effective passive detection range is very short, and the unit can mask itself to be mistaken for a biological (usually a whale). Considering speed and size, detecting it will be quite difficult, and I would expect your infiltration submersibles to be similarly difficult to find. In fact, I never intended to find any of your SpecOps subs. I didn't consider doing so that realistic.

Also, don't worry. They're just starting their trek, which though I stated as being six hours (in a straight line), may take as long 8 or 9. The troops will be coming up at night. And don't worry, I have a few ideas for getting them through.

As for the D-5s, don't worry Omz. I don't have anything that would stop them unless they were launched from a few thousand kilometers away. However, the missiles have a ballistic flight path, and are being launched from under our AWACS coverage. Therefore, we now know exactly where the subs are. ASROC time. :twisted:

26-01-2004, 04:09

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Omz222

26-01-2004, 04:25

I'll hopefully make a post by tonight within a few hours, sorry for the delay. A bit busy at the moment.

26-01-2004, 04:33

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

26-01-2004, 04:58

Okay, CSJ.

Still not real clear on the dog thing, but there is one thing that I can say real fast. If OCs SpecOps guys found the scout dog by chance, then it would be reported to SYNOP or a FCC. Then, an order (possibly) would go out to kill all dogs in the city. Also, as Omz said, dogs are not extremely abundant in Hon. Sure, a few dogs may have fallen into traps and such in the beginning, but eventually, they would become keen to their surroundings, and know about the traps and safe passages and such. With a sudden flux of dogs being killed by traps, and dogs creeping up on troops, something would be awfully suspicious. No biggie, though.

Gotcha on the subs. Although, unless it is DST in Omz222, then the subs, if six hours, would arrive at about 6PM. If it took longer, it would be dark, though.

Heh, I don't mind losing the Trident VIs. Dumb POS subs.
Correction, he stated that there weren't many wild dogs, so strays will still be very common. Also, there would be a large influx of wild and stray dogs in the area due to the abundance of easy food created by the fighting/occupation. Former pets would be approaching soldiers frequently, and since you're in a CITY, such occurrances would be common. In any case, there are too many dogs in the area for a "kill all dogs" order to be realistically considered, not that it would ever be an achievable aim to begin with.
And since there's a large influx of dogs for other reasons, traps would be going off regularly.
However, I suggest we just shelve the argument and play it out. I've already gotten what I need from the dogs, and there's nothing you can do against it now, not that countering it was ever possible to begin with. It's also not like this is going to be all that critical. I kept saying that it only provided limited intel, but you guys seem to be trying to counter it like it's a major operation. It's just a prelude, like sending out a recon platoon ahead of a battalion.

26-01-2004, 05:22

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Ferrussia

26-01-2004, 06:09

*cough*omzclickhere (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=118744)*cough*

26-01-2004, 06:10

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Omz222

26-01-2004, 06:52

*cough*omzclickhere (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=118744)*cough*

I'll post that tomorrow possibly, along with a response to your deployment in the IC thread, don't worry ;)

Bonstock

26-01-2004, 07:08

ooc: This is absolutly none of my business, but I would like to comment that this has been one of the greatest RPs I've seen on NS. Compared with my encounters with Dark Terror/Russian Forces/MagicChina/everyotherf***ingodmoddingn00bonNS, this actually makes RP seem worth while.

I will now silence my random comments, and leave my friends to fight in their war.

Omni Conglomerates

27-01-2004, 06:10

Omni Conglomerates

27-01-2004, 06:31

Random notes on my special forces:

My Tier 1 Special Forces Units (Hobo, Towelsnapper, Outhouse, etc) consist of five men each. They have a sniper, a spotter (CQ), CQ specialist, a mid-range specialist, and a heavy-weapons/demolitions expert. The snipers are allowed their choice of rifle (SVD Dragonov, Berret .50cal, PSG-1, etc), the spotter is armed with a scoped M4B2 (SC allowed us rights to them for our support) with a P-90 customized as a secondary weapon. The spotter usually carries a shotgun as well (sawed off Savage TIE), and keeps a basic barretta sidearm. All soldiers in the armies of the Omni Conglomerates keep either a knife or a throwing ax at their sides at all times although the marines and sailors use the throwing ax more commonly. The close quarters specialist has either a Pancor Jackhammer, orsome other model of shotgun, including the Spaz 12, as his primary and either an MP5 or a P-90 as his secondary. Some of the CQ specialists have been known to keep a pair of barrettas as sidearms. Throwing daggers are also not unknown. The middle range soldier usually uses a M4 SOPMOD or a fully customized FN-MAG. The heay-weapons/demolitions guy carries either a M249 SAW or FN-MAG with a Pancor Jackahmmer has his secondary. The First Tier Specops guys are masters of urban combat and little else, but we aren't here for our skill in jungle fighting. That's SC's job.

The Second Tier Special Forces Units are the really cool guys. Most of these are convicted felons, mainly murderers, rapists, and serial killers. They are given this option as opposed to spending the rest of their pathetic lives inthe uranium mines, or facing execution. For these guys, when we get them in the military, and then give them every kind of strength and endurance enhancing chemical we can with in their maximum tolerances. Now, before we send them into combat, and on a regular basis outside combat, we dope them up with as many drugs as we can, mainly PCP, LSD, cocain, and any other hallucinagin we can find, plus our other little drug- Valkyre. Yes, I know I stole that, but who cares. Simply put, they are genocidal killing machines when we are done with them. They are then given two M249 Paras, and dropped into combat. But that isn't where it stops! Even before they are sent into combat, again, they are dosed with all the drugs. Yes, this is just before combat, so they won't die befor they get there. This makes them really freaking pissed off. We also strap them down with about 4 pounds of Semtex and as much body armor as they can wear and still move. They charge the enemy lines, firing like crazy MFers, and basically get in the enemy lines. The explosives are rigged to a pulse monitor, so when the heart stops, the explosives go off. Also, the Omni Conglomerates Military has a complete database of all these special forces, and the ones that are deployed. If one or more is foind to be going off on friendly forces, we have the ability to shock them unconcious. This gives us the ability to clear out the place and detonate him, or pick him up and use him later.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

27-01-2004, 08:04

Yo, CSJ (and Omz), I won't be online much this week. I will post on everything right next time I get online. By the way, there seems to be a loss for losses on my TNM torpedoes I shot. Another thing, lets get to the ground war soon. I am tired of this sea and air crap. One last thing, how do those dogs of yours work, CSJ? Do they take high res images of key officers bums? Do they have radioactive dye in their urine to mark strategic pee spots? I can see how they could find chemical explosives, but we only have so many of those. I have already posted that many of our mines involve pressure plates, triplines, and swingfall devices that no dog would take notice to use special pee on unless they are attached to a fire hydrant. Maybe the dogs are on a remote control of some kind; it works on cockroaches. I really wish that could be cleared up before I go and let some of my special forces guys be killed. How do you fit those gps and explosives on a dog collar anyway? Those are kind of heavy you know. Let me post this and then I will have something on my special forces. Thank you, and have a nice day.
It's simple. Dogs find paths. Dogs mark and guide men through paths. It's not that difficult to understand. I'm curious as to why you keep making up these stupid ideas to try and discredit the method when all it is is simple, low-tech scouting. There is nothing wrong with dogs acting as guides and scouts. It's been done for centuries, if not millenia, just not in this specific manner.
A dog's urine has a distinct scent. All you need is a dog to follow it. I'm surprised you're so intent on figuring out what magic I use when I have the oldest form of marking territory at my disposal, especially since it's common knowledge. :?
You're also surpisingly naive on how well a dog can sniff out your traps. It doesn't matter how the mine is triggered, but the fact that it contains specific explosive compounds. The odor from these is always going to be leaked, and trained dogs can smell it. If it wasn't, dogs wouldn't be used to search for explosives. Agreed, there are limits, but they're nowhere near what you're thinking.
There is also this thing called TRAINING. Dogs can be trained to notice tripwires and various traps, same as people, and they can be trained to avoid and mark them.
As for the collar, I never stated there being a GPS (where the heck did you get that idea from?), and you're not getting what's in it. There is a simple bug, not too different from those used by police. It's small and easy to conceal. The explosive has a simple fuse and is not that powerful (think primer cord). As I said, it will only be enough to take out your guy's hand and eyes as he examines the collar. Again, nothing spectacular. Besides, the explosive's your punishment for deciding what I was doing before I said anything on it. It's not like your guy's going to die, just be rendered combat ineffective. I could always say that since I was only having dogs like that on the outskirts of the city, that one of my units waxed your entire team as they went to pick up the dog, if you find that more acceptable.

27-01-2004, 23:30

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Ferrussia

28-01-2004, 07:30

Alright, from what I can tell from current IC posts, it's been about 1 IC hour since my last post - a bit too soon to have any major news on the deployment. Should I postpone any more IC posts for the time being, or just post as though it's been a day or two later in Ferrussia? I guess I'm just not sure with how IC time is being handled. Can one element of the RP get "ahead" of another, or must they wait for eachother to keep IC posts contiguous and chronological?

Or am I just overstressing this way too much?

Clan Smoke Jaguar

28-01-2004, 12:49

Okay, guys, let's keep our panties out of a wad. I've just given up on trying to argue with the whole dog thing, for specific, advantageous reasons. However, CSJ, I think you misinterpreted OC's traps, well, at least one of them. The swing-fall trap involves no explosives whatsoever. Actually, that's all I know. I'll get him to explain his traps for next time he gets on at school tomorrow. And if OC is using SEMTEX as an explosive, your dogs won't smell it. SEMTEX is completely odorless. If some hijackers got ahold of that stuff, there would be little we could do in the way of "sniffing" it out.

And CSJ, do you have units on the outskirts of the city? Mind explaining where? And that we have numerous claymores lining the west, along with mines and stuff, mainly on the mains streets. And mind if our guys see dogs sniffing out the explosives we have there, we will know that, "Hey, maybe those dogs sniffing our explosives may just happen to be trained to do so! Let's rid ourselves of them!" Again, I am not argueing the dogs anymore, for some advantageous reasons.
Long-range snipers. Not units right there.
And dogs sniffing for explosives look just like dogs sniffing for food.

Omz222

30-01-2004, 06:20

I was going to add something to the discussion on the dogs, but oh well.

I'm now simply waiting for OC to reply, if no one minds.

Also about forces in the outskirts plus the claymore mines, I will have some plans for future situations... BTW, where's the "normal" mines buried?

Anywho,

Alright, from what I can tell from current IC posts, it's been about 1 IC hour since my last post - a bit too soon to have any major news on the deployment. Should I postpone any more IC posts for the time being, or just post as though it's been a day or two later in Ferrussia? I guess I'm just not sure with how IC time is being handled. Can one element of the RP get "ahead" of another, or must they wait for eachother to keep IC posts contiguous and chronological?

Or am I just overstressing this way too much?

If you want, you could have the first post as a post in an earlier IC date (since I do believe the actual war at yor front ended a while ago), but I dobut you can go as far as having all your forces landed. Right now, you could also mobile strategic air units and naval assets, if you want. I'll admit that the soldiers are more like a secondary importance (to OOCly note something, there will also be a lot of small towns between Vansara and the Northern Mountain range plus the "buildup" position, where militia and army troops gather :twisted: ) -- but still important.

Omni Conglomerates

01-02-2004, 05:14

Clan Smoke Jaguar

01-02-2004, 05:47

As far as the dogs go, I have spoken with SC in RL, and have decided to stop caring since we will simply kill the men and the dogs when they come inside of the the city. Oh, those soldiers that are making an amphibious landing in Honjaksgrad, they are aware that they are right underneath the fleet right. The fleet isn't far off protecting the coast. There are a good deal of ships right next to it.

P.S. Don't have any of your soldiers infiltrate the sewers unless you want them A) crushed under rubble B) drowned C) shot by my special ops guys D) incinerated in a violent explosion.
Fine fine. I never cared much about the dogs to begin with. The whole point was to see how you reacted to them, which was, I'm afraid to say, very poorly. If I really cared, I'd have made a big deal of how, in your post, you had men identifying dogs as sniffing for explosives, and controlled my units again, saying they'd do something as stupid as peeing right on top of the traps. Of course, you were also declaring losses for me again. I hope you don't mind if I do that for you a few times in the future. However, with the possible exception of the last line there, I won't pursue it any further.

As for me suffering losses, I plan on it, unlike some people. However, remember that there is no way you can possibly stop me completely, and to claim anything to the contrary is an extreme godmod. It's physically impossible to achieve anything near that level of control.

02-02-2004, 05:47

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Omz222

02-02-2004, 06:19

Are you saying there is no way we are going to be able to stop the counter-attack?

On another matter, let's just say that there will be a barrier in front of you from stopping the counter-attack completely (as a hint, it will be most likely either a "lightening attack" sorta like a mini-Blitzkrieg [much fewer armor likes], or it will be a slow, RL month-long attack. Infact, the preparation is already starting now...) :twisted:

Anywho, I don't think CSJ means that he would be invincible, nor would either side make success completely. On my side however, preparation is important anyways.

And one last request: Even I'm refraining from RPing the citizen revolt right now (maybe later -- when I get the "space" to do so), please let me declare losses for my own citizens (aka my own loss), especially if it will number up to tens of dead "revolutionaries". Granted, they are not significant nor a big fuss, but that's my request. Thank you for listening.

Barbarosea

02-02-2004, 14:40

So, you don't want us saying that we shot a civilan, just one?

Omni Conglomerates

03-02-2004, 00:54

Omni Conglomerates

03-02-2004, 00:56

Fine fine. I never cared much about the dogs to begin with. The whole point was to see how you reacted to them, which was, I'm afraid to say, very poorly. If I really cared, I'd have made a big deal of how, in your post, you had men identifying dogs as sniffing for explosives, and controlled my units again, saying they'd do something as stupid as peeing right on top of the traps. Of course, you were also declaring losses for me again. I hope you don't mind if I do that for you a few times in the future. However, with the possible exception of the last line there, I won't pursue it any further.

As for me suffering losses, I plan on it, unlike some people. However, remember that there is no way you can possibly stop me completely, and to claim anything to the contrary is an extreme godmod. It's physically impossible to achieve anything near that level of control.

Ok. Well, lets see. First. You sir, are a dick cheese. My apologies about the dogs. I suppose I was a bit blind in not considering them forces. Although, I would like to correct you on some points, pissant. The dogs have not been used in that fashion for a millenia because a millenia ago the only place you could find gunpowder was in China, and they eat dog there so I think that discovery was lost to them. They have only been using dogs to find explosives for the last century or so, but that is a moot point. What is this about me controlling your troops again? I don't recall ever doing so before, maybe you could point another such occasion out to me. I doubt you will find one though because it hasn't happened you overreacting tightass! Oh yeah about suffering losses, you freaking hypocrit, I recall you mentioning you wanted to lose some carriers, and I might mention I have been quite nice about taking losses. Now, I will go ahead and apologize for the control of other people's troops when that happens, but until then, no. I won't arbitrarily post the killing of civilians and dogs, and I would prefer if you don't go be an idiot and blow things out of proportion. I don't enjoy being angry, mean, or even slightly miffed, but you have caused all three. My suggestion is that we calm down and simply state when we think there might have been an unjustice done and not be a dick about it. I realize you have no sense of humor, CSJ, but I wish you would try to take things lightly. Maybe you need some time for yourself. Go outside, have a life. It will do you some good. Now I hope I do not have to speak in such a manner again. Until the next time we engage each other in a battle of wits, I say goodday to you, sir!

Omz222

03-02-2004, 04:06

Hopefully no one takes these stuff personally, this is a heated discussion after all. But allow me to remind everyone, since the direct insulting part has already started...

CALM DOWN

Thank you.

=====================

So, you don't want us saying that we shot a civilan, just one?

You could say something like your solders shot bullets at the civilians, but I will still report the losses.

Ferrussia

03-02-2004, 08:21

My humble (albeit not asked for) opinion on several issues which have sprung up:

First off, lets try and end the insults now, before the RP is ruined because someone gets banned for flaming or something along those lines. Not saying its anyone's fault, but lets try to stay objective and clear from here on out.

As for the dogs: I am relatively certain that the dogs could have been easily trained not to sniff DIRECTLY at the explosives, nor "mark" the exact area of the explosives. I would personally think they would be trained to be casual about the whole thing, in an effort to avoid detection. That being said, however, there are inherent flaws in the execution of such an operation that would limit the potential of the idea as a whole - some traps would invariably be missed, the paths that the dogs "found" would most likely have fewer traps, not be devoid of them, some of these routes would probably be accidentally marked by other dogs, etc. etc. There's no need for such an overblown reaction to the whole thing, and I would personally suggest letting it pass by (which could be done without altering any of the RP thus far - the OC snipers' commander could be skeptical about the whole thing, and even become angry with the snipers for wasting the ammunition) due to the fairly limited impact the 'infiltration' will ultimately have. The dogs aren't creating an uber-map of the city with every single trap catalogued, identified, and planned for - instead, they're finding paths of somewhat lesser resistance through the city; a vulnerablility easily patched up with organic fire support.

In short, there's not much need for all the fuss, and I hope we can end the insults here.

Finally, I believe what CSJ meant about SC not being able to assert that kind of control over a counterattack was in reference to the sewers - given enough men, the traps in the sewer system (and above ground, for that matter) will not be perfect. They will slow an underground advance down considerably, but it's highly unlikely you could halt the entire counterattack. The narrow confines of the sewers work against the defenders just as much as it does against the assault - the advancing men could easily use grenades, anti-tank missiles, and the like to wipe out any large groups of defenders and particularly the sewer "control centers" that have been established. That's what I got from CSJ's comment - perhaps I misinterpreted it, but there's no way to tell until CSJ can clarify himself.

At any rate, sorry for my delay in IC posting, I've been pretty busy IRL, but I should be able to post over the next few days (if I can pull my nose out of the book series I'm reading - ugh, do NOT stay up until 4:00 AM reading on accident).

Thanks for hearing me out, and I hope I've made at least a small amount of sense.

Omz222

04-02-2004, 06:56

First off, lets try and end the insults now, before the RP is ruined because someone gets banned for flaming or something along those lines. Not saying its anyone's fault, but lets try to stay objective and clear from here on out.

Agreed. It isn't any particular sides' fault. Hope that no one will get mad by this heat and the sudden insults it generates, and say "oh f- it, I'll quit this dang thing!". No.

Finally, I believe what CSJ meant about SC not being able to assert that kind of control over a counterattack was in reference to the sewers - given enough men, the traps in the sewer system (and above ground, for that matter) will not be perfect. They will slow an underground advance down considerably, but it's highly unlikely you could halt the entire counterattack. The narrow confines of the sewers work against the defenders just as much as it does against the assault - the advancing men could easily use grenades, anti-tank missiles, and the like to wipe out any large groups of defenders and particularly the sewer "control centers" that have been established. That's what I got from CSJ's comment - perhaps I misinterpreted it, but there's no way to tell until CSJ can clarify himself.

While the sewers are a vital and dangerous spot even with the preparations, I have some plans.

At any rate, sorry for my delay in IC posting, I've been pretty busy IRL, but I should be able to post over the next few days (if I can pull my nose out of the book series I'm reading - ugh, do NOT stay up until 4:00 AM reading on accident).

Not a problem at all, since this war has some pretty low post-rate anyways :wink:

This also reminds me: with a domestic problem I'm having right now, I may not be able to come online. Also with the pile of homework gebnerating in front of my eyes almost instantly everyday, excuse me if my last time online is something like "23 hours ago".

04-02-2004, 07:03

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Omz222

04-02-2004, 07:08

Just a note:

You realize that if your counter-attack is successful, and Bararosea fails to retake air superiority, the invasion will be esentially over. There is no way we will be able to continue operations without Honjaksgrad. Perhaps that would be a good thing to end this RP sooner, but nonetheless, yeah. Although I still have my doubts that the city will be taken back as easily as people are making it sound, there is a possibility in there somewhere that we could be utterly decimated. I have several plans of my own, in fact, which will send a good many twists up for the attacking forces.

While there will be some chances for either the defence plan or the offence plan fail completely and miserably, I would say that it could end in some heavy fighting. Personally, my military will start the operation into Honjaksgrad after Salted Earth ends, and the Marines (advancing towards Vansara) and the paratroopers defeated/pushed back/disabled/whatever (takes time). Indeed, it is a slow process.

For air superiority however, my airmen will be drunk when they hear this news. After they finished drinking however, it's battle time.

OOC: Believe me, the war isn't going to be over just like any other. We are planning to extend it to the end of June...blh blah blah We are?
OOC: Um... I'd recall that you said about something that it will end before the holidays :P When? I was thinking it would end sooner than that...

2 pages earlier.

I would, however, like for this RP to be over by summer-time...

05-02-2004, 05:53

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Ferrussia

05-02-2004, 06:19

Just out of curiosity, SC, what are your commanders thinking? I mean, really, aside from the recent assault on Hagras, it seems like you're just waiting for someone to attack Hon, and doing so gives Omz, CSJ and I full initiative - we can simply wait until all the plans are completely perfected, run all sorts of bombing runs, find every weakness the city has, and essentially run the entire counterattack on our terms. I suppose you may have something else cooking up, but honestly, why are you just sitting in Hon? I'm seriously interested if there is a strategem behind it, because it doesn't seem logical to simply defend the toehold on your assault... and not assault. The best defense is a good offense. You've got your toehold, and it's defended up the wazzu, so I'm just curious as to why you're not moving forward now.

There's probably a reason and/or strategy behind it, and I wouldn't be the least bit suprised. Just to satiate my curiosity - is there a strategy behind it? You don't have to reaveal it if you don't want, but you've got my interest piqued.

Sorry if I'm being annoying. :P

05-02-2004, 06:34

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Barbarosea

06-02-2004, 00:39

Yeah, I'm gonna try to do that tommrow night, Operation: Eager Dawn that is. Oh, and you 2 need to go here. (http://ns2.proboards18.com)

Omz222

06-02-2004, 06:34

What is the roundabouts temperature of your nation? And for Honjaksgrad?

The rule is typically that the North is cold, and the south is hot. The desert in which you landed your forces into isn't necessarily that hot, nor is the Northern Mountains as cold as Antarctica. At the current IC moment (summer), the temperature is typically 32-38 degrees Celsius (90 F to 100 F I believe) for Honjaksgrad. The small desert is just a tiny bit colder than those at Californian deserts (which is ~100-110 F during the summer I think), while the mountain range's temperature is much like those in the mountain ranges between China and Korea (they are still cold in summer, so yes).

Barb: Excellent to hear. However about the boards however, I persume that these are for SC, OC, and your eyes only.

06-02-2004, 06:44

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06-02-2004, 07:47

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Barbarosea

07-02-2004, 00:00

Omz: Yeah, you can go there if you want to chat, but the private boards you can't see so, it really wouldn't do much for u to sign up.

SC: G/f now, impressive, and what the frick is that pic of?

07-02-2004, 09:07

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Clan Smoke Jaguar

07-02-2004, 11:34

I hate to break it to you SC, but you can't possibly tell of an offensive buildup by looking at the front lines. The only reason additional forces would be there would be for a defensive buildup. Attacking units gather well behind the front lines where the threats of interdiction and detection are much less significant, and only move up just before the attack.
Plus, much of the buildup hasn't occurred yet.

I'm also curious as to how an entire battalion managed to get close enough to start sniping at the Omz lines. They should have been noticed by a patrol, outpost, or other forward surveillance unit well before that happened.

Omz222

07-02-2004, 17:34

Omz: No, I want all my jets to go for CSJ. I can figure out something for your ship(s?) if you want.

Go ahead, destroy my dreadnaught. A piece of crap for my navy from now on.

Also, I do want to solve this problem before another argument arises...

Sniper Class Destroyer Bull’s Eye, Battlegroup Atlas 11:20
The explosive-laden zodiacs were detected several kilometers off by a lookout, and there was an immediate scramble to engage and destroy them before they could strike any ships. 25mm Bushmasters and 12.7mm machine guns quickly opened up from any vessel within range. The targets, however, were fast and small, and they were only being engaged by human gunners. Still, the gunners took out five zodiacs, with a sixth falling victim to a Dragon CIWS gun, which had managed to get a lock just long enough to engage. Two of the remaining boats struck the Bull’s Eye, causing significant damage to its weapons and detection systems, as well as killing eleven exposed sailors, and ripping two large holes in the hull, and knocking out power, leaving her dead in the water. The damage could have been much worse though – had these been underwater explosions, they might have been fatal. The third zodiac smashed into the destroyer Eddie Stiles, disabling her fire control and killing 14 sailors, and forcing her to withdraw with heavy damage. The fourth one ran by without hitting anything. Attempts to engage it as it passed through the screen were unsuccessful, and it was hoped that it wouldn’t strike anything further back.

I do believe that SC is RPing it more like his own vessel, not his munitions striking your ships, so it wouldn't be a good idea to declare the losses of the Zodiacs.

07-02-2004, 20:50

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Omni Conglomerates

08-02-2004, 04:17

Note on that meltdown before anyone has a cow or porcupine:

First, the radiation will not be severe. It will be more than what was released at 3-Mile Island (which was next to nothing), less than that after Bikini Island (which was a good bit more), and much much less than that released at Chernobyl (which impacted the entire globe with at the very least trace amounts of not good radiation). The only way more will be release will be if the ships are damaged and the crews are unable to shutdown the reactor or blow up the ship completely. Another note, the ships will got hot. Any IR sensor will be able to tell what is happening within roughly 45 minutes of the reactor control rods being removed. The ships and most of the area around it would glow white hot on a IR sensor after about an hour and thirty-five minutes. At roughly three hours, the ships will either shut down their reactors, or the crew members left alive will blow the ships. There are trace noble gases in the reactors already. This is common. The gases would normally be vented, but since the present idea is to cause collateral damage with the loss of half of a fleet, the gases will be allowed to build up until the reactor explodes. This is a fail-safe. This way the right about of damage is done. A few die of radiation poisoning, others get sick and vomit a whole lot, and there are an increased number of miscarriges and freak births over the next five years. The number of rads a person in the city will be exposed to is 25-175.
This will cause the following symptoms:
25 rads: practically no effect
100 rads: slight nausea and sickness, noticable changes in the blood, incapacity in up to 25% of those exposed to that level of radiation, and a period of concalescence of around 7 days
200 rads: definite blood cell damage, nausea, vomiting, diarrea, hair loss, livid skin spots, fevers, hemorrhages, great fatigue, possible heart failure, incapacity in up to 100% of those exposed to that level of radiation, mortality of about 25% of those exposed to that level of radiation within 30 to 60 days, and a period of concalescence of around 40 days unless those exposed are severely affected.
Remember there will only be a few that will get exposure even near to 200 rads, so not many have to die. My own will be dying as well. Those aboard the carriers will likely see exposure to nearly 600 rads depending on their level of proximity to the reactor. That has a list of symptoms too long for me to post properly. If you really and truly want me to retract that portion of my post, or have an issue with anything else. Just tell me, and I will try to fix it. Don't go ballistic. I don't like to reply to messages where someone has had a cow. It makes me have a cow, and then not long after that everyone is having a cow. Thank you and have a nice day.

08-02-2004, 04:27

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Omz222

08-02-2004, 04:39

Omni Conglomerates

08-02-2004, 04:44

Another note:

I don't want this RP to end with a world destroying meltdown. Which it will if you attack the ship and don't destroy the whole thing outright. If you attack it use everything you have and leave nothing, but a bunch of molten slag. Less will cause the reactor to go meltdown and the ship sinking won't help any once the failsafe is gone and there is nothing left to stop the reaction. Every nation for tens of thousands of miles would recieve radioactive presents and 1000 rads plus. So remember, if you attack the ship, destroy it. If the ship is allowed to do its thing then you should not see highly noticible levels of radiation any more than 60-120 kilometers from the area of effect. Remeber, kill the ship 100% if you kill it at all.

Omni Conglomerates

08-02-2004, 04:52

and much much less than that released at Chernobyl (which impacted the entire globe with at the very least trace amounts of not good radiation).

Actually, I believe it did very much affected the Northern/Central Sections of Europe (extending towards the tip of Eastern UK IIRC). Perhaps the ozone layers, etc. got affected much?

If you really and truly want me to retract that portion of my post, or have an issue with anything else. Just tell me, and I will try to fix it. Don't go ballistic. I don't like to reply to messages where someone has had a cow. It makes me have a cow, and then not long after that everyone is having a cow. Thank you and have a nice day.

I don't really have any objections to this for now. After all, some radiation would be interesting :twisted: Anywho, on a non-related matter, I'm just curious about how the radiation could extend towards tens of thousands of miles, and absolutely wipe out all forms of life.

Lastly, I'll note that I do have some concerns about 6 huge 22.2" guns fitted on a battlecruiser (well, you could call it a battleship if it has a displacement that huge). But oh well, I'll just let it pass -- naval stuff can be confusing, I agree.

PS -- Post coming soon. If Barb still has yet to post however, I will delay the "Honjaksgrad bombing II" portion.

Yes, the radiation will only go tens of thousands of miles if the reactor actually melts down. No reactor in the world has ever melted down before, Chernobly was a partial meltdown, but the buildup of noble gases caused an explosion that lifted the 200 ton reactor core lid on its side and saved the entire world from lethal levels of radiation that would wipe out most of the life on earth. That won't happen, hopefully.

On the battlecruisers, we don't call them battleships. Battlecruiser refers to anything the size of a standard battlecruiser on up through the size of the Bismark. So, technically, all of my battlecruisers are battleships. Sorry if I was misleading. My sincerest apologies. Thank you and have a nice day.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

08-02-2004, 08:36

OC, before I post on the gun duel, I'd like to have an idea as to what I'm up against. I can extrapolate for the guns (by nature, mine will have better range and long-range penetration, which is where we are now. yours will be better when you get to shorter ranges). I also have a 3 to 1 shot advantage (about twice the rate of fire with 50% more guns).
I still need some idea on speed and armor for the "battlecruisers" so I can have an idea on when we'll start getting nasty hits. If you want to simplify it, I can say they're about where the Yamato is (this ship would have to be 80,000 tons plus, while the Yamato is about 75,000 tons. That's still the closest I can do with a real ship), but with higher quality armor. I know it doesn't matter too much to you, but it does to me, so please bear with it.

Also, for everyone: I have two separate groups in Hagras Bay. The closest is the battleships and their escorts. The next closest are the carrier escorts, followed by the carriers themselves. The cargo vessels are already out of the engagement area. For the past, I've been assuming attacks against the escorts since your missiles will barely scratch the paint on the battleships (heck, even 21" torpedoes won't do much).
Unless otherwise stated, I will assume gunfire as engaging the battleship formation, and missiles engaging the main escort fleet (and eventually the carriers).

Omz, I was under the impression that SC's zodiacs weren't being maneuvered much and were more like semi-guided or unguided missiles/torpedoes than piloted boats. If that's wrong, I can change it a bit, but SC doesn't seem to mind.

Omni Conglomerates

08-02-2004, 22:04

Battle Cruisers

Full Displacement: 98,183 tons
Max Sustaining Speed: 32 knots
Armament: 6 22.25in Guns, 250 VLS, 60 Missile (Harpoon) Launchers, 10 CIWS, 9 5.75in Guns
Aircraft: 1 Nominal Helicopter (SH-60, SH-3)
Compliment: 1,700 Crewmen (1,605 Enlisted; 95 Officers)
Armor: 20in Steel, 2in Titanium, 1in Kevlar

My battlecruisers are basically battleships, but I like the name battlecruiser better. Note: my ships are travelling in a rounded arc towards yours, not headed straight towards you. Your shots will have to compensated for our movements. You are not moving at the moment which will make our shots easier (unless you are moving and I just haven't noticed in which case you should mention that in your next post).
Also note that our carriers are about to start glowing white hot on any IR sensors you have. Your officers should correlate that with," Holy crap! They are having a meltdown," or some such. I hope I have given all the information that was needed for this refreshing end game gun duel between our ships. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Clan Smoke Jaguar

09-02-2004, 03:26

Ok, looking at that, I have better all-around armor. Yours is a bit thicker, but mine has higher overall quality. You have a more powerful gun, but it’s shorter ranged and has only 33% of my total rate of fire (my guns fire at least twice as fast and have a 18:12 numerical advantage). My guns are more accurate as well.

Immunity Zone: 28-36 km for me. At 28 km, you should have little trouble penetrating my belt armor, while at 36, you can nail right through my deck armor.
25-37 km for you. Any closer, and your belt armor won’t stop my shells. Any further, and your deck won’t help.
As you can see, we’re actually rather close here, mostly because those huge shells don’t have much better long-range performance than a 16” round, a fact that was shown in numerous studies prior to and during WWII.

I’d say that anywhere above 45 km, my ships have a decisive advantage. My guns range out to 57, but the 22” shell won’t be going much further than 40-45 (ranges actually start dropping once you get above 16”). Your shells are like those of the Yamato. They’re devastating up close, but their performance drops quickly, to the point that mine are actually better at extreme ranges. Once we get below 20 km, your ships have the main advantage. My goal is to stop them before they get that close. Anything between those, and it’s anybody’s game.

Closure rate is currently 60 km/h, though that will drop soon, as my ships turn away to avoid getting too close. We’ll assume a distance of 50 km between the battleships to start with (being very generous here btw), so my ships will get off up to 180-360 shots before your battlecruisers can effectively return fire. Many of my shots at that range will arc into the belt, turrets, or conning tower, where they won’t do much. A few should strike the decks though, and that’ll hurt.

Note: With the exception of waiting submarines, ships never stay still. Minimum steerageway is 3 knots, and no ship will be going slower than that outside of port outside of extreme cases. My main fleet is closing at 10 knots. My battleship force is currently doing 8, but is traveling in a similar arc to your ships, so they’re not closing much.

09-02-2004, 04:35

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Omz222

09-02-2004, 04:52

180-360 rounds before he can get a shot off? That's a lot.

Form what I understand, CSJ meant that he can get that amount of effective shots (that is, "accurate" shots that will be able to reach the distance) before OC's 22+ inch guns could return fire effectively (since 22 inches will have a shorter range in exchange for much greater firepower at close-in).

But, from my point of view, they will be pretty equal since CSJ can get his shots through first (which could penetrate the armor for a little bit before the closeup), but OC's BCs could "equalize" the damage by inflicating as much as damage it has received (in both occasions of long + short range engagements) onto the CSJ ships (using its 22 inches) later in the short range.

09-02-2004, 04:59

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Omz222

09-02-2004, 05:15

Clan Smoke Jaguar

09-02-2004, 05:48

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. That's just a lot of rounds. So he can fire more than that?! Good gosh, my guys in the zodiacs will be deaf.

I'm just pointing it out.

His 16" guns are 2 RPM (1 round per 30 sec -- assuming the guns aren't the Mk.2s), and with the closure rate being 60 km per hour, he could fire 60 rounds per 30 min (on each gun). But CSJ's battleships is 50km far from OC's battlecruiser... If CSJ's firing from all 9 guns, then he could fire 540 rounds until he gets 20km close, or 180 rounds until he gets 40km close I believe.
These are the Mk.2s, but I'm going to stick with 2 rpm because 1) it's easier for everyone to work with and 2) battleships generally don't fire at their maximum rate in a gunnery duel.
I have 18 guns, and 5-10 minutes of immunity. That's 10-20 shots per gun. As I stated, even when OC gets within range, I can still be firing at least 3 shots for each of his. Of course, ammunition load is still a factor, and I won't be forgetting that. As I stated, I'm being generous. I could say that we're 55 km away, which is still within the effective range of my guns, and adds another 10 shots per gun.
40-45 km is the maximum range, period. I'm saying the 22" shells won't even be able to reach my battleships until they get closer.
As for knowing the armament and its capabilities. Finding it out is easy. Photoreconnaissance used by both sides would have determined pretty well the size of the guns, and intelligence will have some idea as well. With the size of the guns known, it's not difficult to get a rough idea of the range and penetration.

Finally: My crews target the BCs because they've been determined as the only threat to the Toryus. If you had missiles capable of damaging them, they'd have been used already. That means that the 22" guns are the only weapons that can hurt my battleships.

09-02-2004, 05:59

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Omz222

09-02-2004, 06:33

Anywho, about the bumping. I doubt that another purge will start anytime soon (especially for November threads), so not much of a need to worry about that.

However, it is quite a record for a war RP to be still active after... 3 months?

09-02-2004, 06:38

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Omz222

09-02-2004, 06:52

Now post IC before I brass your nation's babies and give them back to the mothers for a keepsake.

They are coming soon, partically because I'm too lazy, partically because of other reasons :p

Barbarosea

10-02-2004, 00:47

I live. Lol, ns was being a bitch and we all know how that goes. Ne way I'm back and I'm gonna make an IC post soon.

11-02-2004, 06:48

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Ferrussia

11-02-2004, 07:33

Sorry, SC... that's kinda what the post about the IC timeline earlier was about, and given that Omz was the only one to really reply, I took that and ran with it. Sorry for not being clear on that, and hopefully you're alright with what I did:

Basically (and I meant to mention this, whoops), the last IC post that I made, with the timeline and everything, was bringing me up to the current IC time, minus a few hours. Ferrussia is Omzian time, +5 hours. Since my last post gave the time as 8:00 AM, that puts me at about... 9? hours behind where you guys are currently, which isn't a big deal since nothing will really be happening on my end. At any rate, the first post I made was theoretically 2 or 3 days behind the IC timeline (since Fyreheart pulled out quite a while ago, etc. etc.), then there were the more recent posts updating you on the deployment that was happening between that point and the current IC time.

Wow, that was way more complex than it needed to be. Basically, the other posts were preamble and kinda exempt from the RP's current time, but now I'm up to speed and it will be a good IC week before I have any troops with any capability in Omz. The OOC timeline I provided in the IC thread is based off the current IC time.

Sorry if I'm not any help... if you need more clarification, I can give it another shot. :P

Ferrussia

11-02-2004, 07:38

For reference, this is the post I was talking about:

Alright, from what I can tell from current IC posts, it's been about 1 IC hour since my last post - a bit too soon to have any major news on the deployment. Should I postpone any more IC posts for the time being, or just post as though it's been a day or two later in Ferrussia? I guess I'm just not sure with how IC time is being handled. Can one element of the RP get "ahead" of another, or must they wait for eachother to keep IC posts contiguous and chronological?

Or am I just overstressing this way too much?

If you want, you could have the first post as a post in an earlier IC date (since I do believe the actual war at yor front ended a while ago), but I dobut you can go as far as having all your forces landed. Right now, you could also mobile strategic air units and naval assets, if you want. I'll admit that the soldiers are more like a secondary importance (to OOCly note something, there will also be a lot of small towns between Vansara and the Northern Mountain range plus the "buildup" position, where militia and army troops gather :twisted: ) -- but still important.

(emphasis added in bold)

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