NationStates Jolt Archive

If you didn't even know that Enigma wasn't British, I doubt you know enough about the history of cryptography to have heard of Colossus.

Nah, I got confused. I saw a documentary on this it was made at Bletchley Park.

Edit@Fartsniffage. Yes, I know about the Colossus. There is also the Analytical Engine of Charles Babbage, although that was never built. However, both Colossus and the Analytical Engine were evolutionary dead ends, abortive attempts before the first real success. ENIAC is still the father of modern computers, because they are basically all descended from it.

It may be the father but Colossus was first.

Us Brits don't have much left anymore, don't try to take the fading glory of our successes in the past.

My flaws do not impinge on this discussion, for I do not, I believe, hold irrational fears or prejudice against those with a different ancestral background to myself.

But, not to deflect you from answering a question, you do now see that British culture is essentially multiracial/multiethnic, yes?

I was already aware of this (how could I not be). And i'm not saying that being multicultural is a entirely bad thing

Well I guess you guessed it then,

But if I where really making the decision I would like to know more about you.
For instance what in your mind makes you British?
What do you do?
How old were you when you came here?

EDIT: plz do not be offended but I have to stick to my views.

Aged 8 and a bit when I arrived.

I am a British citizen, which has some vague potential, but I honestly don't consider myself to be 'British'. Nor do I consider myself anything else, apart from possibly 'Human'.

I am currently a student, and will be for the forseeable future. As such, I will be happily sponging off the UK government while I study mathematics at Cambridge.

And no, I am not offended. Disappointed, maybe, but not offended. However, you do not have to stick to your views. If you find your views put you in a position you consider untenable, you can revise your views.

I note, interestingly, that you still have not said straight out that I should be deported. Even when we all knew it, you still skirted around saying it. Seems you're not as convinced of your correctness as you might claim.

I was already aware of this (how could I not be). And i'm not saying that being multicultural is a entirely bad thing
So are your gripes purely economical in nature?

Is your problem with immigration simply that you see it as taking away jobs from (white) Britons?

But, not to deflect you from answering a question, you do now see that British culture is essentially multiracial/multiethnic, yes?

Forgive me if this has already been raised, or is tangential to what seems to be an interminable debate, but the above raises other issues regarding Islam. Taking as axiom the polyglot quality of "British culture", surely the basis of this is tolerance? If so, this does rather render it irreconcilable to the societal and cultural homegenity obliged by many of the tenets of Sharia law.

I concede that cultural intolerance, and its' violent manifestations, are far frome exclusively Islamic, and that nominally indiginous groups ahve demonstrated regrettable aptitude for it also, but, the degree of intolerance the collision of Islamism and current western diplomacy has occassioned does rather call into the question the logic permitting mass Islamic immigration.

I was already aware of this (how could I not be). And i'm not saying that being multicultural is a entirely bad thing

Unlike the majority of western politicians, who have rejected much of "multiculturalism" as a coherent ideology. "Multiculturalism" and a polyglot society are not coterminous.

My flaws do not impinge on this discussion, for I do not, I believe, hold irrational fears or prejudice against those with a different ancestral background to myself.

But, not to deflect you from answering a question, you do now see that British culture is essentially multiracial/multiethnic, yes?

Aged 8 and a bit when I arrived.

I am a British citizen, which has some vague potential, but I honestly don't consider myself to be 'British'. Nor do I consider myself anything else, apart from possibly 'Human'.

I am currently a student, and will be for the forseeable future. As such, I will be happily sponging off the UK government while I study mathematics at Cambridge.

And no, I am not offended. Disappointed, maybe, but not offended. However, you do not have to stick to your views. If you find your views put you in a position you consider untenable, you can revise your views.

I note, interestingly, that you still have not said straight out that I should be deported. Even when we all knew it, you still skirted around saying it. Seems you're not as convinced of your correctness as you might claim.
Of course I'm not entirly convinced, is anyone ever convinced entirly?
But, ( and I am not finding exuses for my veiws) I do live in an area with quite alot of BNP support. It is even harder to stick to one's on veiws when they have been torn apart all evening. If I were you I would hold someone like myself in contempt, yet you do not? Although you are as you said "sponging off the government" I do begrudje you for it, which is some what strange. You go to Cambridge? only uberbright people go there, grats.

So are your gripes purely economical in nature?

Is your problem with immigration simply that you see it as taking away jobs from (white) Britons?

I think that is the main reason, times ain't great are they?

but I will not deny that I do fear other cultures.

All British jobs should first be given to British workers, and then to immigrants. they are stealing our jobs, there are 3mil unemployed brits and about the same number of immigrants working in this country. Why should British born people be unemployed why immigrants have jobs that could be theirs?
And to repeat myself: Prove that the 3 million unemployed people (who might not fit your criteria for being "British people", by the way) are willing and able to do the jobs the 3 million immigrant workers are doing. And as a bonus, show me that they'll do it better.


It's not so much about generations,being British certainly has nothing to do with that ridiculously easy test immigrants have to take to get in. If you go in to generations and shit like that...
Which you did. Are you now backing away from that? Because if you aren't, you need to explain it better. If you are, however, you've still haven't explained what makes one "British", and how someone who's lived in Britain since 1948 and is a citizen automatically won't fit into that category.

then what about the US or Australia, none of them are truly from there except for the abariginies and the native Americans.
Irrelevant.

As I've said British people shouldn't be homeless or unemployed when the are immigrants in council houses and taking jobs.
Show me an example of someone who is homeless as a direct consequence of immigration.

How would you feel if you lost your job and your house, while your immigrant neighbour had both?
I would probably be sad and angry - however, I'd keep my immigrant neighbour out of it since it's not relevant to my situation that he has a job and home.

For that matter, I wouldn't blame any other person for my failures.

It is not a question of education I think, more of getting a fair deal for British people.
No, no, it's about education I'm sure. It most certainly doesn't have anything to do with getting a fair deal for "British people" when you can't even properly define who they are.

So, this is the "Mr. Monk visits the Internet Forum" Monk episode? :p
Tremble in fear of my power to point out factual inaccuracies!

I know this. But then again I also know invented the thing.
I was on a roll, what can I say :p

Taking as axiom the polyglot quality of "British culture", surely the basis of this is tolerance? If so, this does rather render it irreconcilable to the societal and cultural homegenity obliged by many of the tenets of Sharia law.
Many of the tenets of certain interpretations of Sharia, yes. Those who desire theocracy in Britain, no matter which faith they follow, are not going to find a culture amenable to their aims.

(As an aside, is 'polyglot' really what you meant? I thought the term referred to multiple languages, not multiple cultures.)

I concede that cultural intolerance, and its' violent manifestations, are far frome exclusively Islamic, and that nominally indiginous groups ahve demonstrated regrettable aptitude for it also, but, the degree of intolerance the collision of Islamism and current western diplomacy has occassioned does rather call into the question the logic permitting mass Islamic immigration.
Only if one assumes that an immigrant who shares the faith of Islam will be necessarily a follower of Qutb-style, radical, militant, fundamentalist Islam; an assumption I do not see as warranted.

Of course I'm not entirly convinced, is anyone ever convinced entirly?
But, ( and I am not finding exuses for my veiws) I do live in an area with quite alot of BNP support. It is even harder to stick to one's on veiws when they have been torn apart all evening. If I were you I would hold someone like myself in contempt, yet you do not? Although you are as you said "sponging off the government" I do begrudje you for it, which is some what strange. You go to Cambridge? only uberbright people go there, grats.

1- If your views are torn apart by logic and facts, that means they are wrong.

2- Many people would argue that one of the things that make you REALLY belong to a culture is knowledge of the language. As such: "Begrudge". "Somewhat". PS, I'm Brazilian. Oh, and, by the way, the Latin alphabet isn't British. So feel free not to use it.

Many of the tenets of certain interpretations of Sharia, yes. Those who desire theocracy in Britain, no matter which faith they follow, are not going to find a culture amenable to their aims.

Certain interpretations which, for whatever reason, happen to prevail in a good number of Islamic states, and are currently, due to their severity, in particular vogue amongst those with particular hostility to the west. Which is, I concede, no different to the prevalence of certain Christian doctrines, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, arising from direct conflict with other faiths.

The difference, I maintain, is that the social and cultural tensions accruing from Islamic extremism as a domestic entity could have been avoided had mass immigration in the post-war decades either been better conceived, or regulated.

(As an aside, is 'polyglot' really what you meant? I thought the term referred to multiple languages, not multiple cultures.) [/QUOTE]

I believe so, if the Late-Antique historians who use it are to be trusted. Which may not say an awful amount for Late-Antique historiography in truth.


Only if one assumes that an immigrant who shares the faith of Islam will be necessarily a follower of Qutb-style, radical, militant, fundamentalist Islam; an assumption I do not see as warranted.

Not an assumption in the slightest. I don't doubt that any number of first, second and third generation Islamic migrants are impeccably tolerant, however, this does not guarantee that all will be. My criticism is more on the grounds of myopia when mass commonweath immigration was permitted, and regulated.

1- If your views are torn apart by logic and facts, that means they are wrong.

2- Many people would argue that one of the things that make you REALLY belong to a culture is knowledge of the language. As such: "Begrudge". "Somewhat". PS, I'm Brazilian.

Not entirely torn apart.

Language isn't every thing, though it is quite a substantial part of a culture.
I would never claim to be Brazilian for instance if I could speak Portuguese

1- If your views are torn apart by logic and facts, that means they are wrong.

2- Many people would argue that one of the things that make you REALLY belong to a culture is knowledge of the language. As such: "Begrudge". "Somewhat". PS, I'm Brazilian.

Wait....So, Heikoku is more English than a guy from Kent?...

http://learning.cc.hccs.edu/Members/cschweitzer/images/scanners.gif

EDIT: plz do not be offended but I have to stick to my views.


And no, I am not offended. Disappointed, maybe, but not offended. However, you do not have to stick to your views. If you find your views put you in a position you consider untenable, you can revise your views..
What he said, oh so very much! :fluffle:

(Haven't fluffled you in a while now :p)

So are your gripes purely economical in nature?

Is your problem with immigration simply that you see it as taking away jobs from (white) Britons?
Yet he's previously expressed willingness to see more (white) Britons unemployed if that means getting the immigrants out of the jobs...

Are you aware that you're living in an age og globalization?
I am and it should be stoppedAnd you're willing to make more people ("British people") unemployed to make sure that only "British people" are employed. Yep

Wait....So, Heikoku is more English than a guy from Kent?...

http://learning.cc.hccs.edu/Members/cschweitzer/images/scanners.gif

Considering my values are far more British per se than his? Maybe. But I'd like to think I belong to myself.

Not entirely torn apart.

Language isn't every thing, though it is quite a substantial part of a culture.
I would never claim to be Brazilian for instance if I could speak Portuguese

I'm not arguing that I'm British. I'm arguing that some of the more intolerant views would mean YOU are not, as you just got your usage of your mother tongue corrected by a Brazilian.

Of course I'm not entirly convinced, is anyone ever convinced entirly?
But, ( and I am not finding exuses for my veiws) I do live in an area with quite alot of BNP support. It is even harder to stick to one's on veiws when they have been torn apart all evening. If I were you I would hold someone like myself in contempt, yet you do not? Although you are as you said "sponging off the government" I do begrudje you for it, which is some what strange. You go to Cambridge? only uberbright people go there, grats.

No, sir. I consider your views contemptible, backwards, laughable if they were not so dangerous. Indeed, your views are fundamentally incompatible with British democracy, to a far greater degree than the immigrants you have been attacking all thread. Despite this, you are merely a child, and will yet learn and develop. If we have this discussion again in five years time, and you have not changed or understood the flaws in your position, then I will hold you in contempt.

"sponging" is a mildly self-deprecating phrase. As a British citizen, the government subsidises my education rather heavily, so I am taking advantage of it. I am not yet at Cambridge - running the maths from age 8 at 1999 would show you I'm just on the young side. I shall instead be (grades willing) attending from October.

I raise, again, the call for you to define what "British" is. We wish to know, O great arbiter of who should stay and who should go.

I raise, again, the call for you to define what "British" is. We wish to know, O great arbiter of who should stay and who should go.

Who, I must add, is lacking in knowledge of his country's language.

The difference, I maintain, is that the social and cultural tensions accruing from Islamic extremism as a domestic entity could have been avoided had mass immigration in the post-war decades either been better conceived, or regulated.
I'd agree that the placement of immigrants, 'ghettoisation' for want of a better term, could have been handled differently in some areas of the UK.

But this is hardly an indictment of immigration itself.

I believe so, if the Late-Antique historians who use it are to be trusted. Which may not say an awful amount for Late-Antique historiography in truth.
Interesting.

I've never heard it used in that sense before.

Not an assumption in the slightest. I don't doubt that any number of first, second and third generation Islamic migrants are impeccably tolerant, however, this does not guarantee that all will be.
Of course not; there will always be nutters in any community.

My criticism is more on the grounds of myopia when mass commonweath immigration was permitted, and regulated.
Again, perhaps integration could have been handled better, but I think 'mass' immigration has shown to be a fantastic thing for Britain; both culturally and economically.

What he said, oh so very much! :fluffle:

(Haven't fluffled you in a while now :p)


Yet he's previously expressed willingness to see more (white) Britons unemployed if that means getting the immigrants out of the jobs...

Why thank you sir. No, you haven't :fluffle:

Who, I must add, is lacking in knowledge of his country's language.

With all due respect, it's not particularly important. Firstly, it was picked up on many posts ago, and he is dyslexic. Secondly, it's so minor in comparison to the much more glaring flaws in his positions, that picking up on it in posts is simply a waste of time. Finally, it provides a nice excuse to avoid providing an answer to the actual question, so it's a tactical flaw. You of all people should have noticed the last one.

I'm not arguing that I'm British. I'm arguing that some of the more intolerant views would mean YOU are not, as you just got your usage of your mother tongue corrected by a Brazilian.
I'm Dyslexic. I think I'm gonna put that in my signature so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
No, sir. I consider your views contemptible, backwards, laughable if they were not so dangerous. Indeed, your views are fundamentally incompatible with British democracy, to a far greater degree than the immigrants you have been attacking all thread. Despite this, you are merely a child, and will yet learn and develop. If we have this discussion again in five years time, and you have not changed or understood the flaws in your position, then I will hold you in contempt.

"sponging" is a mildly self-deprecating phrase. As a British citizen, the government subsidises my education rather heavily, so I am taking advantage of it. I am not yet at Cambridge - running the maths from age 8 at 1999 would show you I'm just on the young side. I shall instead be (grades willing) attending from October.

I raise, again, the call for you to define what "British" is. We wish to know, O great arbiter of who should stay and who should go.

I know I am "merely a child" but that does not mean that my views are irrelevant, uncouth perhaps. I already understand the flaws in my position, even when I was writing my comments. But I do still find it unfair that often an immigrant will go to the top of the housing list. Or that they or sometimes picked for jobs over British workers for "equal opportunities". Or that some times British people are told to take down their Union flags because they are offensive to immigrants. Though I know that is not the immigrant's fault, it is the society that we live ins fault.

tbh you've got me all confused as to what Britishness is. I think it is impossible to do so when we live in such a diverse society.

With all due respect, it's not particularly important. Firstly, it was picked up on many posts ago, and he is dyslexic. Secondly, it's so minor in comparison to the much more glaring flaws in his positions, that picking up on it in posts is simply a waste of time. Finally, it provides a nice excuse to avoid providing an answer to the actual question, so it's a tactical flaw. You of all people should have noticed the last one.

I was going more towards the fact that he, who wants to treat non-British like üntermenschen, not only fails to define what a Briton is, but also has what the kind of people HE HIMSELF would like to emulate consider a severe flaw: He doesn't seem to have full grasp of the language. And Xenophobes HATE people who can't speak their language.

I was hoping to get it through his head that Xenophobes would hate HIM too.

I'm Dyslexic. I think I'm gonna put that in my signature so I don't have to keep repeating myself.

Which do you think is more likely for the BNP to do, call for your extradiction because you're not "perfect" and not fit for eugenics and are "too lazy" (or some other slur the BNP would love to throw) to learn the "mother tongue" or accept your dyslexia?

tbh you've got me all confused as to what Britishness is. I think it is impossible to do so when we live in such a diverse society.

Well, gee. Then perhaps the entire United Kingdom should be evacuated just to be sure? Mmm?

But I do still find it unfair that often an immigrant will go to the top of the housing list.
Do you have any solid evidence for this? The time for anecdotes have passed.

Or that they or sometimes picked for jobs over British workers for "equal opportunities".
Does this happen often? How often?


tbh you've got me all confused as to what Britishness is. I think it is impossible to do so when we live in such a diverse society.
See? You don't have to stick to your views. You adapt and change them as you recieve new information. That's how it works.

I was going more towards the fact that he, who wants to treat non-British like üntermenschen, not only fails to define what a Briton is, but also has what the kind of people HE HIMSELF would like to emulate consider a severe flaw: He doesn't seem to have full grasp of the language. And Xenophobes HATE people who can't speak their language.

I was hoping to get it through his head that Xenophobes would hate HIM too.
Xenophobes in Britain would not hate me as I am British, and I can speak English very well I just can't read or write it very well. Though admittedly putting google chrome on my PC has helped a great deal.
Which do you think is more likely for the BNP to do, call for your extradiction because you're not "perfect" and not fit for eugenics and are "too lazy" (or some other slur the BNP would love to throw) to learn the "mother tongue" or accept your dyslexia?

neither, what has it got to do with the BNP if I can spell or not.


Besides at no point have I said that I support the BNP, and I actually said I wouldn't vote for them if I could

I know I am "merely a child" but that does not mean that my views are irrelevant, uncouth perhaps. I already understand the flaws in my position, even when I was writing my comments. But I do still find it unfair that often an immigrant will go to the top of the housing list. Or that they or sometimes picked for jobs over British workers for "equal opportunities". Or that some times British people are told to take down their Union flags because they are offensive to immigrants. Though I know that is not the immigrant's fault, it is the society that we live ins fault.

Ah, you missed the point slightly. I'm going to digress slightly, and tell you all a little story.

Picture, if you will, a young and geeky UvV*. The year is 2004 - he's been on Nationstates for a good few months now, and it's Election time in the USA. Our plucky young hero, influenced by friends, notions of American glory, and several other silly reasons, is strongly supporting Mr George W. Bush. Over time, he realises the error of his ways, and has now developed into a fully fledged anarchist communist. But once upon a time he was a young little neocon, full of support for invading Iraq and killing those dirty terrorists.

You see, people's views change. My views were pretty stupid back when I was your age, but I've realised that now. I expect that as you mature, you will as well. As a result, I don't hold you in contempt for your views - I see them as a natural product of your environment, of a young teenager's natural tendency to imitate those they look up to and respect. It is if you do not revise them and think about them for yourself in the next five years that I will hold you in contempt.

As for the rest of your UKIP propaganda, sources hardly need asking for, do they? I see that other people have already picked up on it a bit, so I shall just leave it for now.


tbh you've got me all confused as to what Britishness is. I think it is impossible to do so when we live in such a diverse society.

Precisely. And if we cannot even define Britishness, what are we doing deporting people who don't fit it?

*Normal hair, silly teeth, single. By contrast, I now have silly hair and normal teeth, but am still single.

Xenophobes in Britain would not hate me as I am British, and I can speak English very well I just can't read or write it very well. Though admittedly putting google chrome on my PC has helped a great deal.


neither, what has it got to do with the BNP if I can spell or not.

Wake up and smell the gas chambers.

People with mental health issues, even minor ones such as dyslexia, were rounded up under a xenophobic and intolerant regime in Germany. Just as they were in Italy. Assuming the BNP or other xenophobes got to the top and started calling the shots, I wouldn't give it a year until they picked YOU up in the middle of the night to take you to a "reeducation" camp.

That's what it has got to do. You assume the BNP, or any other xenophobic group, would stop at YOUR group of choice. It wouldn't. It would stop at THEIRS. And you are not part of THEIR group of choice.

Ah, you missed the point slightly. I'm going to digress slightly, and tell you all a little story.

Picture, if you will, a young and geeky UvV*. The year is 2004 - he's been on Nationstates for a good few months now, and it's Election time in the USA. Our plucky young hero, influenced by friends, notions of American glory, and several other silly reasons, is strongly supporting Mr George W. Bush. Over time, he realises the error of his ways, and has now developed into a fully fledged anarchist communist. But once upon a time he was a young little neocon, full of support for invading Iraq and killing those dirty terrorists.

You see, people's views change. My views were pretty stupid back when I was your age, but I've realised that now. I expect that as you mature, you will as well. As a result, I don't hold you in contempt for your views - I see them as a natural product of your environment, of a young teenager's natural tendency to imitate those they look up to and respect. It is if you do not revise them and think about them for yourself in the next five years that I will hold you in contempt.

As for the rest of your UKIP propaganda, sources hardly need asking for, do they? I see that other people have already picked up on it a bit, so I shall just leave it for now.



Precisely. And if we cannot even define Britishness, what are we doing deporting people who don't fit it?

*Normal hair, silly teeth, single. By contrast, I now have silly hair and normal teeth, but am still single.
Oh my bad, You rele supported bush? damn even I was against that. I have said somewhere on this thread that I used to be a Dirty Commie, so people do change.
Wake up and smell the gas chambers.

People with mental health issues, even minor ones such as dyslexia, were rounded up under a xenophobic and intolerant regime in Germany. Just as they were in Italy. Assuming the BNP or other xenophobes got to the top and started calling the shots, I wouldn't give it a year until they picked YOU up in the middle of the night to take you to a "reeducation" camp.

That's what it has got to do. You assume the BNP, or any other xenophobic group, would stop at YOUR group of choice. It wouldn't. It would stop at THEIRS. And you are not part of THEIR group of choice.

People back then had no notion of dyslexia, they thought people were just stupid.

Interestingly Einstein was dyslexic and was asked to leave his school because they thought he was very stupid.

People back then had no notion of dyslexia, they thought people were just stupid.

Interestingly Einstein was dyslexic and was asked to leave his school because they thought he was very stupid.

...THAT'S your retort?

So you think THAT would stop them now? It wouldn't. The mentally retarded ALSO got rounded up and killed, and they KNEW it wasn't stupidity back then. You would get rounded up all the same.

...THAT'S your retort?

So you think THAT would stop them now? It wouldn't. The mentally retarded ALSO got rounded up and killed, and they KNEW it wasn't stupidity back then. You would get rounded up all the same.
Calm down.

Your off-topic ranting, combined with an unneeded picking upon spelling, is not helping matters.

Calm down.

Your off-topic ranting, combined with an unneeded picking upon spelling, is not helping matters.

I'm calm. I'm just pointing out that the regime RoI wishes for would have him up against the wall as well.

Oh my bad, You rele supported bush? damn even I was against that. I have said somewhere on this thread that I used to be a Dirty Commie, so people do change.

Indeed. On the other hand, I was always sensible enough to avoid xenophobia, so it cuts both ways.

I am well aware that people change. I am expecting you to, as you get older; get wiser; and meet in real life people like me, meet in real life people you would see deported. That is why I am not contemptuous of you yet, and why I will be if you do not change.

Edit: You may find it useful to put Heikoku on ignore. While he makes good points on occasion, his attitude can be abrasive.

...THAT'S your retort?

So you think THAT would stop them now? It wouldn't. The mentally retarded ALSO got rounded up and killed, and they KNEW it wasn't stupidity back then. You would get rounded up all the same.

So your comparing dyslexia with being "mentally retarded". Dude thats retarded. do you rele think the BNP would care if I could spell or not.

So your comparing dyslexia with being "mentally retarded". Dude thats retarded. do you rele think the BNP would care if I could spell or not.

I'm not. But if you assume they wouldn't, you've got another thing coming.

Indeed. On the other hand, I was always sensible enough to avoid xenophobia, so it cuts both ways.

I am well aware that people change. I am expecting you to, as you get older; get wiser; and meet in real life people like me, meet in real life people you would see deported. That is why I am not contemptuous of you yet, and why I will be if you do not change.

I not sure that xenaphobia is conected to senceability, more ignorance

Indeed. On the other hand, I was always sensible enough to avoid xenophobia, so it cuts both ways.

I am well aware that people change. I am expecting you to, as you get older; get wiser; and meet in real life people like me, meet in real life people you would see deported. That is why I am not contemptuous of you yet, and why I will be if you do not change.

Edit: You may find it useful to put Heikoku on ignore. While he makes good points on occasion, his attitude can be abrasive.

Again, no, I'm not calling him retarded. I'm pointing out that if xenophobes ran the country, people with dyslexia would get the exact same treatment immigrants would.

I'm calm. I'm just pointing out that the regime RoI wishes for would have him up against the wall as well.
Your SHOUTING in ALLCAPS does not make you appear calm.

And it is far from clear that RoI is a fully-fledged supporter of the BNP.

I'm an arrogant, presumptuous braggard.

Wrong.

Your SHOUTING in ALLCAPS does not make you appear calm.

And it is far from clear that RoI is a fully-fledged supporter of the BNP.

Which is why I added the "or xenophobes" as a caveat. He admitted to being one.

Wrong.

Sorry: Arrogant, presumptuous braggart.

Also, another factual error that needs to be corrected: The claim that 3 million Britons are unemployed.

Unemployment in Britain climbed nearer the 2 million mark in January as it soared to its highest level since 1997.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/11/uk-unemployment-job-losses

The unemployment rate was 6.3 per cent for the three months to December 2008, up 0.4 over the previous quarter and up 1.1 over the year.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=12

UK unemployment was 1.92 million between September and November, up 131,000 from the previous three months, the highest level since September 1997.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7841349.stm

...and it should also be noted...

The official figures also showed there were 530,000 job vacancies in the last three months of 2008, down 69,000 from the previous quarter and the lowest figure since records began in 2001

Just for the record.

we should live in a world where everyone is treated equally regardless of race, religion, gender, sexuality or any other stupid reasons, why dont people get that, the only thing you should judge people on is theyre personality

we should live in a world where everyone is treated equally regardless of race, religion, gender, sexuality or any other stupid reasons, why dont people get that, the only thing you should judge people on is theyre personality

And what kind of chocolate they like...

And what kind of chocolate they like...

someones taste in chocolate is irrelevant, whats relevant is what theyre like as a person

we should live in a world where everyone is treated equally regardless of race, religion, gender, sexuality or any other stupid reasons, why dont people get that, the only thing you should judge people on is theyre personality

And what kind of chocolate they like...

And how much they get into Body Building of course, lol...

And what kind of chocolate they like...

What if you hate chocolate?! :(

What if you hate chocolate?! :(

Why do you hate Freedom? :(

Why do you hate Freedom? :(

Man, if freedom tastes like chocolate, I might as well just start packing my bags and move my ass to Saudi Arabia because I want none of it. Gross chalk tasting foodthing, chocolate is.

Man, if freedom tastes like chocolate, I might as well just start packing my bags and move my ass to Saudi Arabia because I want none of it. Gross chalk tasting foodthing, chocolate is.

Anyone else just taste purple? lol...

Alot of Chocolate does taste like that, Im not a huge chocolate fan either...But, thats just cause not everyone's doing it right, Hershey's on the other hand, is teh awesomenxxorrz to the max! lol

Anyone else just taste purple? lol...

Alot of Chocolate does taste like that, Im not a huge chocolate fan either...But, thats just cause not everyone's doing it right, Hershey's on the other hand, is teh awesomenxxorrz to the max! lol

Nah, I've had "good" chocolate many times. Still don't like it. The only chocolate I've ever really liked is fudge from this place in Cedarburg, Wisconsin called Amy's and, even then, I prefer when it's mixed with mint.

Sadly, we do have a muslim problem.

The area I work in and used to live in (Thank god I left. There is a stabbing every week now) is a highly Muslim populated area.

The problem as I see it, from the point of what I have seen growing up with it all around me is that people come to this country (United Kingdom, England is where I'm from) and they hate us. They really do. What I have encountered are Muslims coming here from places like Jordan, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan and mainly Pakistan and they really hate us, especially the younger ones.

They dislike we don't live by their laws or choose their religion or speak their language.

If they dislike us so much, there are plenty of Islamic Nations in the world, one now in the European Union, they could just leave, but they wont because our benefits system is so easy to play that they can get an education, live and play for free. I have never seen a Pakistani doing a job such as a builder or plumber. I only ever see they working for the NHS sadly as consultants or dentists.

Anyway. I would like them to leave the UK if they don't like us so much.

I don't have much of a problem with the older muslims, as they seem to just want a quiet life, but the young ones who are stabbing us and shooting us and spreading hate for us, simply because we are not like them and we like being English/British. I wish they would leave.

If you look at the rate of immigration and the sharp increase of gun and knife crime in the UK you can see we are heading for a huge problem. Sadly the BNP (who I dislike) are slowly gaining council seats that will, if things continue make them a scary possibility as a government, they could get in if the Muslims keep giving them so much Ammo for people to vote for them.

Of course we can't do anything about Muslims in England as we are deemed racist and avoided in the street, by others who were once our friends if we dare say anything. England is lost, save yourselves while you can and please try and evacuate as many English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish people as you can before dropping a nuke on everyone left.

I agree with that Red guy. The Muslims "Problem" here is like the one Nazi Germany had with Jews. They upset us so much and the government sides with them, they are both causing a storm that will one day explode in to a hurricane that will make the Bradford Riots look like a playground scrap.

I urge you my fellow Englishmen, invest in a shotgun license and buy stocks in canned food companies. :(

P.S

I do believe in a world where we can all live together in peace. I also know that many people are branded racists for taking the chance to express themselves as I usually am. But some Muslims are a problem. They don't want to live together in pace. They want us to do what they do, live by their laws and their religion. They can't really handle freedom. Those are the Muslims I hate. I have Muslims friends who are lovely, but some are just hopeless.

England is lost, save yourselves while you can and please try and evacuate as many English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish people as you can before dropping a nuke on everyone left.

I agree with that Red guy. The Muslims "Problem" here is like the one Nazi Germany had with Jews. They upset us so much and the government sides with them, they are both causing a storm that will one day explode in to a hurricane that will make the Bradford Riots look like a playground scrap.

I urge you my fellow Englishmen, invest in a shotgun license and buy stocks in canned food companies.
Hilarious.

Snip.

Trolling, joking or insane?

Trolling, joking or insane?

Yet still such a turn on, lol...

Trolling, joking or insane?

Once again I'm putting my imaginary internet money on all three.

Seriously I hope there was an element of joking in there, otherwise the poster missed my point by light years.

Once again I'm putting my imaginary internet money on all three.

No you're not.

*Points an imaginary internet gun at Redwulf* GIVE ME ALL YOUR IMAGINARY INTERNET MONEY AND NOBODY GETS HURT!

The problem as I see it, from the point of what I have seen growing up with it all around me is that people come to this country (United Kingdom, England is where I'm from) and they hate us. They really do. What I have encountered are Muslims coming here from places like Jordan, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan and mainly Pakistan and they really hate us, especially the younger ones.

They dislike we don't live by their laws or choose their religion or speak their language.

This is my believing face.
I agree with that Red guy. The Muslims "Problem" here is like the one Nazi Germany had with Jews. They upset us so much and the government sides with them, they are both causing a storm that will one day explode in to a hurricane that will make the Bradford Riots look like a playground scrap.

I urge you my fellow Englishmen, invest in a shotgun license and buy stocks in canned food companies. :(

Wha-....I mea-......Ummm....Seriously?

I have never seen a Pakistani doing a job such as a builder or plumber. I only ever see they working for the NHS sadly as consultants or dentists.


I disagree with the other posters on this post. This is the part that makes the least sense.

*tackles Heikoku, trundles him off to imaginary internet re-education facility*

We ain't got none o' that "trial by jury" nonsense on the internetz, buddy!

Might I politely remind participants to focus, prithee, on the argument, not the poster?

*tackles Heikoku, trundles him off to imaginary internet re-education facility*

We ain't got none o' that "trial by jury" nonsense on the internetz, buddy!

Might I politely remind participants to focus, prithee, on the argument, not the poster?

*Gets out after a few months.*

*Listens to Beethoven's 9th*

*Pukes*

...I don't have much of a problem with the older muslims, as they seem to just want a quiet life, but the young ones who are stabbing us and shooting us and spreading hate for us, simply because we are not like them and we like being English/British. I wish they would leave.

If you look at the rate of immigration and the sharp increase of gun and knife crime in the UK you can see we are heading for a huge problem...

My observation is that people aren't, as a rule, violent for the hell of it. Nor do I think that Muslims are, by nature, violent. (Mind you, I'm taking your word that violence is indeed high in these groups.) I think violence is more likely to be a product of poverty, trauma and resentment about perceived injustices. If these issues are addressed, and they will be over time, the violence will decline.

...I agree with that Red guy. The Muslims "Problem" here is like the one Nazi Germany had with Jews. They upset us so much and the government sides with them, they are both causing a storm that will one day explode in to a hurricane that will make the Bradford Riots look like a playground scrap...

I don't have any truck with the argument that we can't have immigration because those already here will be violent (which, in any case, is an admission that the Brits are inherently violent to start of with). The problem is not the immigrants, it's the rest of us.

It's interesting that this was Pavaro's first post. It's almost as if a regular NSGer wanted to hide their NSG identity.

*Gets out after a few months.*

*Listens to Beethoven's 9th*

*Pukes*

Everyone is a critic. :rolleyes:

Everyone is a critic. :rolleyes:

You DO know Clockwork Orange, right? :p

*Gets out after a few months.*

*Listens to Beethoven's 9th*

*Pukes*

Everyone is a critic. :rolleyes:

You DO know Clockwork Orange, right? :p

LG completely missing out on a pop culture reference. Isn't that one of the signs of Biblical Armageddon?

You DO know Clockwork Orange, right? :p

Of course I do. :p

Sadly, we do have a muslim problem.

The area I work in and used to live in (Thank god I left. There is a stabbing every week now) is a highly Muslim populated area.

The problem as I see it, from the point of what I have seen growing up with it all around me is that people come to this country (United Kingdom, England is where I'm from) and they hate us. They really do. What I have encountered are Muslims coming here from places like Jordan, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan and mainly Pakistan and they really hate us, especially the younger ones.

They dislike we don't live by their laws or choose their religion or speak their language.

If they dislike us so much, there are plenty of Islamic Nations in the world, one now in the European Union, they could just leave, but they wont because our benefits system is so easy to play that they can get an education, live and play for free. I have never seen a Pakistani doing a job such as a builder or plumber. I only ever see they working for the NHS sadly as consultants or dentists.

Anyway. I would like them to leave the UK if they don't like us so much.

I don't have much of a problem with the older muslims, as they seem to just want a quiet life, but the young ones who are stabbing us and shooting us and spreading hate for us, simply because we are not like them and we like being English/British. I wish they would leave.

If you look at the rate of immigration and the sharp increase of gun and knife crime in the UK you can see we are heading for a huge problem. Sadly the BNP (who I dislike) are slowly gaining council seats that will, if things continue make them a scary possibility as a government, they could get in if the Muslims keep giving them so much Ammo for people to vote for them.

Of course we can't do anything about Muslims in England as we are deemed racist and avoided in the street, by others who were once our friends if we dare say anything. England is lost, save yourselves while you can and please try and evacuate as many English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish people as you can before dropping a nuke on everyone left.

I agree with that Red guy. The Muslims "Problem" here is like the one Nazi Germany had with Jews. They upset us so much and the government sides with them, they are both causing a storm that will one day explode in to a hurricane that will make the Bradford Riots look like a playground scrap.

I urge you my fellow Englishmen, invest in a shotgun license and buy stocks in canned food companies. :(

P.S

I do believe in a world where we can all live together in peace. I also know that many people are branded racists for taking the chance to express themselves as I usually am. But some Muslims are a problem. They don't want to live together in pace. They want us to do what they do, live by their laws and their religion. They can't really handle freedom. Those are the Muslims I hate. I have Muslims friends who are lovely, but some are just hopeless.

:eek::confused::eek:

and I'm criticized? This has gotta be a joke.

but the young ones who are stabbing us and shooting us and spreading hate for us
Proof? I have never been stabbed or shot by a Muslim. Nor have I heard of any one I know being attacked by Muslims.

:eek::confused::eek:

and I'm criticized? This has gotta be a joke.


Proof? I have never been stabbed or shot by a Muslim. Nor have I heard of any one I know being attacked by Muslims.

Consider it a compliment - I don't bother with criticism if I think it won't be addressed.

Consider it a compliment - I don't bother with criticism if I think it won't be addressed.

Yours is constructive critcizam though, unlike some other posters

:eek::confused::eek:

and I'm criticized? This has gotta be a joke.

Yes, you're being criticized, and not ignored like that one-post (possible troll) is.

Proof? I have never been stabbed or shot by a Muslim. Nor have I heard of any one I know being attacked by Muslims.

I've been attacked by Muslims and you sort of know me.


Admittedly it was over a cigarette and not religion but still...

I've been attacked by Muslims and you sort of know me.


Admittedly it was over a cigarette and not religion but still...

I've been attacked by some white guys over a ciggerette- does that mean that all white people are "stabbing and shooting us"?

I've been attacked by some white guys over a ciggerette- does that mean that all white people are "stabbing and shooting us"?

Having lived in Manchester for years I can say that, yes, all white people seem out to stab or shoot me. Then again, so do the blacks and hispanics and Chinese and Slavs and.....

Your arguing with the wrong person here, I like people of all flavours and don't discriminate against any of them

I've been attacked by some white guys over a ciggerette- does that mean that all white people are "stabbing and shooting us"?

No, but why take the chance? Just send them all away. White people have caused more death and horror in the last century than all other races combined. *nod*

Trolling, joking or insane?
The word 'stocks' to refer to 'shares' doesn't exist in British English, so far as I can tell, so I suspect a foreign troll.

Sadly, we do have a muslim problem.
...
If they dislike us so much, there are plenty of Islamic Nations in the world, one now in the European Union, they could just leave, but they wont because our benefits system is so easy to play that they can get an education, live and play for free. I have never seen a Pakistani doing a job such as a builder or plumber. I only ever see they working for the NHS sadly as consultants or dentists.


1.Islamic nation in the EU? Which one, pray? Afaik, the EU countries feature either a majority of Christians or in some cases (Czech Republic iirc) a majority of atheists/agnosticists. And I checked, Cyprus has a majority of Greeks, hence Orthodox Christians.
2.So basically your complaint about Pakistanis is that they studied and got good jobs?




If you look at the rate of immigration and the sharp increase of gun and knife crime in the UK you can see we are heading for a huge problem.
Correlation doesn't mean cause-effect relationship.
To uphold your thesis, you should provide datas about the number of people arrested and sentenced for violent crimes, and the culprits' ethnicities.



I agree with that Red guy. The Muslims "Problem" here is like the one Nazi Germany had with Jews. They upset us so much and the government sides with them, they are both causing a storm that will one day explode in to a hurricane that will make the Bradford Riots look like a playground scrap.

You're claiming that the government of Nazi Germany sided with Jews.
Either you're a genius of humour, or you're a knowledge-challenged person.

The word 'stocks' to refer to 'shares' doesn't exist in British English, so far as I can tell, so I suspect a foreign troll.

Also he is probably foreign due to the time of his post (time zones and whatnot). I know that there were some British people posting at the same time but not everyone can be concious at 2 in the morning.

You're claiming that the government of Nazi Germany sided with Jews.
Either you're a genius of humour, or you're a knowledge-challenged person.

I think that it is the later, besides I do not think the holocaust is something to be joked about.

No, but why take the chance? Just send them all away. White people have caused more death and horror in the last century than all other races combined. *nod*

It depends on the definition of "white". I'm sure that someone would challenge the idea that we Italians, or the Russians, are "properly" white... we're Untermenschen, or crypto-niggers - yet we caused our fair share of horror. *nod, in a very jewish way* Oy gevalt...

I think that it is the later, besides I do not think the holocaust is something to be joked about.

That's my guess, too. I was just trying to be extremely polite and politically correct. ;)

I think that it is the later, besides I do not think the holocaust is something to be joked about.

The holocaust is exactly the kind of thing that should be joked about. The best comedy comes when contrasted with horrible tragedy.

That's my guess, too. I was just trying to be extremely polite and politically correct. ;)
I hate Political correctness.
The holocaust is exactly the kind of thing that should be joked about. The best comedy comes when contrasted with horrible tragedy.
I disagree. The most dull and unimportant things can be very funny. There is no need to risk upsetting people for a laugh.

I hate Political correctness.

What exactly is "Political correctness"?

And are you not arguing in favour of it here:

I disagree. The most dull and unimportant things can be very funny. There is no need to risk upsetting people for a laugh.

What exactly is "Political correctness"?

And are you not arguing in favour of it here:
PC is the ridiculas policy introduced by labour to impare free speech.
And I am not arguing for PC, but the holocaust is a very delicate subject to close to home for many.
PC is stupid- children aren't supposed to sing "Ba Ba Black Sheep" any more because supposedly its racist. They make them sing "Ba Ba Rainbow Sheep instead. WTF?

children aren't supposed to sing "Ba Ba Black Sheep" any more because supposedly its racist. They make them sing "Ba Ba Rainbow Sheep instead. WTF?

Seriously?

Seriously?

bhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-379114/Baa-baa-rainbow-sheep.html

I no the daily fail isnt the best source but hey...

Seriously?

No. It's not a requirement any where.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4782856.stm

Edit: A less neutral article.

http://www.septicisle.info/2006/03/baa-baa-rainbow-bollocks.html

No. It's not a requirement any where.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4782856.stm

Edit: A less neutral article.

http://www.septicisle.info/2006/03/baa-baa-rainbow-bollocks.html

Meh, theres more.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1988952.stm
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=3561
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/aug/26/conservatives.uk1

Meh, theres more.

There always is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1988952.stm

Police are asked not to say certain things to avoid upsetting people. This makes sense to me as I'd rather they had to think before they spoke than revert to the ways of the 70's where they did as they chose and people ended up "falling down stairs" rather frequently.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=3561

An uncited source?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/aug/26/conservatives.uk1

A speech by the opposition leader meant to undermine the current government? Say it isn't so.

Meh, theres more.
What's worse?

The occasional over-reaching of folks mindful that they aren't sexist, racist, etc., or a return to the time when the Tories could have, without raising many eyebrows, an election campaign that ran, 'If You Want A N1gger For A Neighbour, Vote Liberal Or Labour'?

I'll plump for a society mindful of the sensibilities of others.

What's worse?

The occasional over-reaching of folks mindful that they aren't sexist, racist, etc., or a return to the time when the Tories could have, without raising many eyebrows, an election campaign that ran, 'If You Want A N1gger For A Neighbour, Vote Liberal Or Labour'?

I'll plump for a society mindful of the sensibilities of others.
:eek:
Hah I can't believe the torries did that, can you imagine if they brought that slogan back? How did they get away with that?

:eek:
Hah I can't believe the torries did that, can you imagine if they brought that slogan back? How did they get away with that?

There were not enough people advocating political correctness. :p

PC is the ridiculas policy introduced by labour to impare free speech.
And I am not arguing for PC, but the holocaust is a very delicate subject to close to home for many.
PC is stupid- children aren't supposed to sing "Ba Ba Black Sheep" any more because supposedly its racist. They make them sing "Ba Ba Rainbow Sheep instead. WTF?
No.

Define Political Correctness. Is it an official policy, then show me the official documents. If it's not, show me the definitions they're using.

And then explain to me how you're not arguing in favour of a policy introduced to impare free speech when you don't want people to make Holocaust-related jokes fearing the risk of upsetting people for a mere laugh.

here were not enough people advocating political correctness.
I've already said that it is good to a certain extent, but labour have taken it way too far and have wasted way to much time and money on it.

EDIT: I don't see what this has to do with muslims anyway.

:eek:
Hah I can't believe the torries did that, can you imagine if they brought that slogan back? How did they get away with that?

It was in the 1960s or 1970s, IIRC.

Police are asked not to say certain things to avoid upsetting people. This makes sense to me as I'd rather they had to think before they spoke than revert to the ways of the 70's where they did as they chose and people ended up "falling down stairs" rather frequently.


I thought that was due to the bell-bottoms :$

Hah I can't believe the torries did that, can you imagine if they brought that slogan back? How did they get away with that?
Because attitudes of the day allowed them to do so; it wasn't seen as unacceptable.

This is what 'political correctness' means (I do think it's a rather silly term, however); being aware of others, being aware that certain words have certain connotations that are highly offensive.

Now, of course we shouldn't prevent/discourage folks from saying any words that might be seen as offending anybody, and indeed there are cases where people have been over-cautious. But these are lone examples -- hence the Daily Mail citing individuals, not institutions -- and as I've said above, I'd prefer erring in that direction than in the other.

I've already said that it is good to a certain extent, but labour have taken it way too far and have wasted way to much time and money on it.
I don't know what you mean... what specific policies have been taken 'way too far'?

I don't see what this has to do with muslims anyway.
Little in reality, though those like the BNP like to cite examples of people being careful not to offend Muslim sensibilities as 'political correctness gone mad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K21e7po1Sro)'.

I tend to find if someone is using an Alan Partridge catchphrase in a serious political context, they're sorely wrong.

I thought that was due to the bell-bottoms :$

That's a huge misconception.

Bell-bottoms actually prevented many deaths in 70s British police stations by acting as parachutes as the miscreants were thrown down the stairs.

It was in the 1960s or 1970s, IIRC.
Dude that's like forever ago to me.
Because attitudes of the day allowed them to do so; it wasn't seen as unacceptable.

This is what 'political correctness' means (I do think it's a rather silly term, however); being aware of others, being aware that certain words have certain connotations that are highly offensive.

Indeed, though PC has not stopped every day people saying such words.

Dude that's like forever ago to me.

I wasn't even alive. :p

Indeed, though PC has not stopped every day people saying such words.
I think the attitude in Britain has changed dramatically; ask someone you know who was about in the 70s.

And that's what it's all about, changing -- not forcing -- people's (bigoted) conceptions.

The problem isn't Islam or immigrnats themselves - The problem is the growing (and worrying) trend towards extremism. Britains leading moderate Muslim, Knighted by the Queen for promoting good inter-faith relations said of Salaman Rushdie (Satanic Verses chap) "Death is perhaps too good for him" His predcessor offered Mr Rushdie sanctuary in his own home. Muslim "community leaders" (who elected them anyway?!) Are becoming more and more extreme - All or nothing. There are examples, all recent, of muslims demanding Shariah law be enforced instead of British law. This is (in my opinion) completely unacceptalbe. Is it unreasonable to expect muslims to obey our laws, and when nessacary, respect our culture? I, and the vast majority of people would never dream of going to an Islamic country and ignoring their culture and law (this may be in part to the risk of execution!)
In short, Conservative muslims want to have Shariah law with western luxury (I think)
Sorry for the long rantpost!

In short, Conservative muslims want to have Shariah law with western luxury (I think)
Sorry for the long rantpost!

Really

Having lived in Manchester for years I can say that, yes, all white people seem out to stab or shoot me. Then again, so do the blacks and hispanics and Chinese and Slavs and.....

So to summarize the summery of a summery, people are a problem.

Proof? I have never been stabbed or shot by a Muslim. Nor have I heard of any one I know being attacked by Muslims.

Wow, someone that drove me to defend Islam with their Islamophobia is now being driven by someone else to defend Islam. What's going on?

Wow, someone that drove me to defend Islam with their Islamophobia is now being driven by someone else to defend Islam. What's going on?

I was not trying to insult muslims when you defended them. Besides how can such a bold, unsourced statement not be questioned?

...but, the degree of intolerance the collision of Islamism and current western diplomacy has occassioned does rather call into the question the logic permitting mass Islamic immigration.

This doesn't make sense at all. Even if you do admit that immigration causes intolerance, which is doubtful.

I was not trying to insult muslims when you defended them. Besides how can such a bold, unsourced statement not be questioned?

You never answered my question.

This doesn't make sense at all. Even if you do admit that immigration causes intolerance, which is doubtful.



You never answered my question.

Which one? I have not answered many of peoples questions

Which one? I have not answered many of peoples questions

We were discussing the Swiss and nationality.

A swiss politician proposed a bill that said that communities could vote to decide whether an immigrant could become a naturalised citizen.

You said that the UK should do something similar.

But what if the UK was an Islamic nation? I asked if you thought the UK should still do something similar? You said no. Because people should not be discriminated against because of their religion.

I have another question for you: Let's say the UK did as you suggested and passed this kind of law. Now the UKers get to vote on whether or not Abdul Mohammed Hussein gets to be a citizen. So they vote, and they decide not to let him in because he's a Muslim.

Now you said that people should not be discriminated against because of their religion, so this is wrong, according to you. But if we don't let the people vote the way they want to, that's also wrong.

What do you do?

why doesnt everyone eat some pie? It solves all lifes problems.

We were discussing the Swiss and nationality.

A swiss politician proposed a bill that said that communities could vote to decide whether an immigrant could become a naturalised citizen.

You said that the UK should do something similar.

But what if the UK was an Islamic nation? I asked if you thought the UK should still do something similar? You said no. Because people should not be discriminated against because of their religion.

I have another question for you: Let's say the UK did as you suggested and passed this kind of law. Now the UKers get to vote on whether or not Abdul Mohammed Hussein gets to be a citizen. So they vote, and they decide not to let him in because he's a Muslim.

Now you said that people should not be discriminated against because of their religion, so this is wrong, according to you. But if we don't let the people vote the way they want to, that's also wrong.

What do you do?
The piece of legestration would not be wrong, it would be the people who discriminated him for being a Muslim. In politics it is impossible to please everyone, but if this was introduced then at least those who disagreed with what they were voting for has let his/her opinions be counted.


Now the UKers get to vote on whether or not

UKers? I like that. I might start calling brits that.

why doesnt everyone eat some pie? It solves all lifes problems.

um a bit random, but I suppose I could give it a try

The piece of legestration would not be wrong, it would be the people who discriminated him for being a Muslim. In politics it is impossible to please everyone, but if this was introduced then at least those who disagreed with what they were voting for has let his/her opinions be counted.

So, religious discrimination is fine when people from the UK do it, but not when Muslims do it?

So, religious discrimination is fine when people from the UK do it, but not when Muslims do it?

No I said that the law would be good, but if people choose to take advantage of it by discriminating against people due to religion- that would be wrong

why doesnt everyone eat some pie? It solves all lifes problems.

Most of the time, pie is haram :eek2:

No I said that the law would be good, but if people choose to take advantage of it by discriminating against people due to religion- that would be wrong

So, if the UK becamse a country with an Islamic majority, and the citizens used this law to keep non-Muslims out, that would be okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helertia
In short, Conservative muslims want to have Shariah law with western luxury (I think)
Sorry for the long rantpost!

Really

Yes, really. For example, just search "shariah law uk" (sans speechmarks) to get a very good view of Shariah law in The UK. Lets face it, the average person will have a better standard of life in the west compared to Islamic countries. However, the west does not run under Shariah Law. Some (and a growing number) want both - A high quality of life with Shariah Law. Of course, to everyone who isn't Muslim ,this would be catastrophic, especially if the laws were interpreted in ways that Iran has.

I leave you with this: "Other members of the Muslim community I am sure would have cringed as I did when listening to Dr Syed Aziz Pasha, secretary-general of the Union of Muslim Organisations of the UK and Ireland, who explained his demand for sharia and more holidays: “If you give us religious rights we will be in a better position to convince young people that they are being treated equally along with other citizens.” He has done much good work over the years but this is clearly not one of his better moments."

So, if the UK becamse a country with an Islamic majority, and the citizens used this law to keep non-Muslims out, that would be okay?

No as it is still discriminating due to religion. Though I do see how they could use this in that way if the UK ever became a Muslim majority (or any group of people who were the majority) in a harmful way. The law if it were ever passed would have flaws, but perhaps they could be ironed out.

No as it is still discriminating due to religion. Though I do see how they could use this in that way if the UK ever became a Muslim majority (or any group of people who were the majority) in a harmful way. The law if it were ever passed would have flaws, but perhaps they could be ironed out.

The existing UK community could use this to vote to keep Muslims out on religious grounds. Now, you correctly pointed it out as discrimination due to religioin. Is this a flaw that would need to be ironed out?

The existing UK community could use this to vote to keep Muslims out on religious grounds. Now, you correctly pointed it out as discrimination due to religioin. Is this a flaw that would need to be ironed out?

It is. But I have no notion how. Perhaps instead of using this idea on immigrants, we could use it on other matters. For instance, if the government wanted to pass a major law, they could let the public vote on it.

why doesnt everyone eat some pie? It solves all lifes problems.

Amen.

It is. But I have no notion how. Perhaps instead of using this idea on immigrants, we could use it on other matters. For instance, if the government wanted to pass a major law, they could let the public vote on it.

So, now you have changed your mind and think that this would not be a good idea for the UK.

So, now you have changed your mind and think that this would not be a good idea for the UK.

It would be good in some ways. But I think that some would take advantage of it.It is certainly a good theory, but probably not in practice ( a bit like communism)

What exactly is "Political correctness"?

It's being what we in Italy call "being a paraculo" (one whose main occupation is to save his own arse).

It's being what we in Italy call "being a paraculo" (one whose main occupation is to save his own arse).


Wonderful language, Italian.

The problem isn't Islam or immigrnats themselves - The problem is the growing (and worrying) trend towards extremism.

I agree, it's worrisome how extremist the average British citizen is becoming these days.

I agree, it's worrisome how extremist the average British citizen is becoming these days.

I don't think the average British citizen is becoming extremist. Extremism has grown recently, but not to the point were the average person is extremist

However, the west does not run under Shariah Law. Some (and a growing number) want both - A high quality of life with Shariah Law. Of course, to everyone who isn't Muslim ,this would be catastrophic, especially if the laws were interpreted in ways that Iran has.



I don't think that it would be catastrophic for the west to adopt some aspects of Sharia Law.Unless as you said it was interoperated as it has been done in Iran. In Iran it is apparently the law for women to wear those dress thingys that cover their face and that they are not allowed to leave the house unless they are with a man. Is this to do with Sharia, or is it just a law invented by the government? ( if it is a law at all)

I don't think that it would be catastrophic for the west to adopt some aspects of Sharia Law.Unless as you said it was interoperated as it has been done in Iran. In Iran it is apparently the law for women to wear those dress thingys that cover their face and that they are not allowed to leave the house unless they are with a man. Is this to do with Sharia, or is it just a law invented by the government? ( if it is a law at all)

Sharia.

In Iran it is apparently the law for women to wear those dress thingys that cover their face and that they are not allowed to leave the house unless they are with a man. Is this to do with Sharia, or is it just a law invented by the government? ( if it is a law at all)
It's a really strict interpretation of Sharia, and many Islamic legal scholars would say that it's a wildly incorrect interpretation. All that is directly required in the Koran and Haddiths is that men and women be modest in appearance and behaviour.

Obviously, being 'modest' doesn't necessarily translate into 'wear a burqa'.

It's a really strict interpretation of Sharia, and many Islamic legal scholars would say that it's a wildly incorrect interpretation. All that is directly required is that men and women be modest in appearance and behaviour.

Obviously, being 'modest' doesn't necessarily translate into 'wear a burqa'.

But the Koran like the bible is open to interpretation. As are religious laws, Iran have obviously taken it to the extreme(a bit like the Fundermentalists)

Edit- What about women leaving the house? is that realy a law?

Edit- What about women leaving the house? is that realy a law?

Yes.

They can only be in public with a male relative/husband escort.

Yes.

They can only be in public with a male relative/husband escort.

WTF? Why do they have a stupid law like that? That's just backwards. Do women have no rights there? I doubt they can even vote.

WTF? Why do they have a stupid law like that? That's just backwards. Do women have no rights there?

Essentially.

I doubt they can even vote.

In Iran, only the Allatoyah votes. In most other Middle Eastern counties, no one votes.

But the Koran like the bible is open to interpretation. As are religious laws, Iran have obviously taken it to the extreme(a bit like the Fundermentalists)
Exactly, it's a very strict interpretation of the Koran and the Haddiths.

Which is why it's not good to talk about Sharia as some set-in-stone rules, and why tabloid reports of this or that group 'imposing Sharia' on Britain should be taken with a good deal of scepticism.

What about women leaving the house? is that realy a law?
As far as I'm aware, there isn't anything explicit in any Islamic holy texts which say this.

As far as I'm aware, there isn't anything explicit in any Islamic holy texts which say this.

The Koran says nothing on it. I havent read Sharia texts, however.

Its probably something that came about from the mindset that all women are unclean sluts, and without a male escort to watch them, will engage in all sorts of unclean perversions.

Essentially.



In Iran, only the Allatoyah votes. In most other Middle Eastern counties, no one votes.

Allatoyah? I did a google search and nothing came up.

And they hold elections in Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Bahrain, Turkey, ect.

In Iran, only the Allatoyah votes. In most other Middle Eastern counties, no one votes.
That's not entirely true.

Its probably something that came about from the mindset that all women are unclean sluts, and without a male escort to watch them, will engage in all sorts of unclean perversions.
I don't know where it 'comes from', but it's important to note that in states which enforce a strict interpretation of Islamic law, although women and homosexuals are most certainly oppressed, men aren't exactly free to go about as they please either.

Allatoyah? I did a google search and nothing came up.

And they hold elections in Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Bahrain, Turkey, ect.

Ayatollah. Specifically, Ayatollah Khomeini. I recommend you actually read about the Iranian Revolution, Khomeini really is a political mastermind. Granted, the Shah was absolutely pathetic, but Khomeini's maneuvering was nothing short of beautiful for a political analyst in the way a function or formula can be beautiful to a mathematician.

Allatoyah? I did a google search and nothing came up.

Basically a ruling group of clerics in Iran.

And they hold elections in Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Bahrain, Turkey, ect.

I should have clarified. I was refering to countries where Sharia law actually is the standard.

And Iraq didnt have elections till recently:p

That's not entirely true.

As I conceded, I wasnt clear. I was mostly refering to extremists countries were Sharia is the norm.

I don't know where it 'comes from', but it's important to note that in states which enforce a strict interpretation of Islamic law, although women and homosexuals are most certainly oppressed, men aren't exactly free to go about as they please either.

True, but there is a lot more...suspicion? of women in regards to sin and permiscuity.

Ayatollah. Specifically, Ayatollah Khomeini. I recommend you actually read about the Iranian Revolution, Khomeini really is a political mastermind. Granted, the Shah was absolutely pathetic, but Khomeini's maneuvering was nothing short of beautiful for a political analyst in the way a function or formula can be beautiful to a mathematician.

It appears I spelled it wrong.

Yeah, spelling it right might actually help:p

Basically a ruling group of clerics in Iran.



I should have clarified. I was refering to countries where Sharia law actually is the standard.

And Iraq didnt have elections till recently:p

Meh, your slightly wrong again, Afghanistan has elections, so do Nigeria- I know that it is not in the middle east, but it still has some Sharia Law.




True, but there is a lot more...suspicion? of women in regards to sin and permiscuity.

Women are not equal every were, they are equal to men on some fronts, but often are harshly mistreated

In practice Sharia law has sometimes resulted in women living in fear or disadvantage. In instances of rape some authorities of Sharia law require for an allegation to be validated, victims must have four Muslim-Male witnesses to the crime or else the victims risk being charged with fornication or adultery. In Yemen Sharia law required compensation to be paid to the husband in the case of a 10 year old child bride who requested a divorce after rape and abuse(the minimum age of marriage under Sharia law is sexual maturation).
Source Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

The problem with elections is that the people in middle eastern countries are often (This is not a all encompassing statement. I'm sure there are many liberals there. I've just never met them) are just as or even more conservative/extreme than the government. For example, Palestine has the most free and fair election in the middle east for a very long time - and votes in Hamas

True, but there is a lot more...suspicion? of women in regards to sin and permiscuity.
Sure, but I can't think of any society where this isn't the case.

Meh, your slightly wrong again, Afghanistan has elections, so do Nigeria- I know that it is not in the middle east, but it still has some Sharia Law.


Afghanistan still has Sharia law? Ho hum. Learn something new everyday.

Sure, but I can't think of any society where this isn't the case.

Oh, agreed 100%. Luckily many countries have started to back away from basing laws off such medieval suspicious.

Afghanistan still has Sharia law? Ho hum. Learn something new everyday.
Many of those areas not under direct control of the Kabul central government have gone back to, if they ever truly left, hardline Sharia interpretation.

Those areas not under direct control of the Kabul central government have gone back to, if they ever truly left, hardline Sharia interpretation.

Oh ok. I kinda new that. Basically the tribal regions that may still be supporting the Taliban, or just flat out not care who is in charge?

Basically the tribal regions that may still be supporting the Taliban, or just flat out not care who is in charge?
Aye, many of the warlords the Western forces were so keen to join up with in 2001.

Aye, many of the warlords the Western forces were so keen to join up with in 2001.

Of course. I wouldnt expect anything less.


God I love the West's foreign policy. Anyone with an education in history can predict it from a mile away.

I don't think that it would be catastrophic for the west to adopt some aspects of Sharia Law.Unless as you said it was interoperated as it has been done in Iran. In Iran it is apparently the law for women to wear those dress thingys that cover their face and that they are not allowed to leave the house unless they are with a man. Is this to do with Sharia, or is it just a law invented by the government? ( if it is a law at all)

Ehm, nope.

In Iran women are not to show in public any body part other than face and hands. You're mistaking Iran with Afghanistan, I'd guess.

As a matter of fact, the condition of women in Iran isn't exactly the worst of the Islamic world. In Saudi Arabia women aren't allowed to testify except for some cases (while in Iran their testimony counts half of a men's).

Ahmadinejad being the jerk that he is shouldn't make us think that Iran is the ultimate hellhole of the universe: other countries are closer to that.

wiki:human rights in Saudi Arabia

In the legal system, women face discrimination. An example of this is the requirements for testifying in criminal proceedings; The witness must be deemed sane, the age of an adult, and a Muslim. Non-Muslims may not testify in criminal court. Women may not testify unless it is a personal matter that did not occur in the sight of men. The testimony of a woman is not regarded as fact but as presumption. The reasons women are forbidden to testify in proceedings are (quote):[15][16]

Women are much more emotional than men and will, as a result of their emotions, distort their testimony.
Women do not participate in public life, so they will not be capable of understanding what they observe.
Women are dominated completely by men, who by the grace of God are deemed superior; therefore, women will give testimony according to what the last man told them.
Women are forgetful, and their testimony cannot be considered reliable

Other discriminations against women in Saudi Arabia (a staunch ally of the US and of the West, mind you)

Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads in large cities. However, some do so on rural roads illegally.[citation needed] Women are allowed to fly aircraft, though they must be chauffeured to the airport.[19]


As for Afghanistan, that's the place where women were required to wear the burqa in public. (wiki:human rights in afghanistan)

The Constitution promises equal rights for men and women, and women are permitted to work outside the home, to engage in political activity, and the Constitution requires each political party to nominate a certain number of female candidates. However, the Afghan Supreme Court is dominated by Islamic extremists that have been issued various rulings and opinions that seem to be attempting to undermine women's rights, i.e. calling for segretation in schools.


As for Iran (wiki: womens' rights in iran)

The Islamic revolution is ideologically committed to inequality for women in inheritance and other areas of the the civil code; and especially committed to segregation of the sexes. Many places, from "schoolrooms to ski slopes to public buses", are strictly segregated. Females caught by revolutionary officials in a mixed-sex situation can be subject to virginity tests.[16]

Hijab
"Bad hijab" ― exposure of any part of the body other than hands and face — is subject to punishment of up to 70 lashes or 60 days imprisonment.[17][18] In April 2007, the Tehran police, (which is under Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's supervision), began the most fierce crackdown on what's known as "bad hijab" in more than a decade. In the capital Tehran thousands of Iranian women were cautioned over their poor Islamic dress and several hundred arrested.[19]


[edit] Post-Khomeini era
The early 1990s brought a marked increase in the number of women employed in Iran. Dramatic changes in the labor force might not have been possible if Khomeini had not broken the barriers to women entering into the public sphere unchaperoned. Women were also more likely to pursue higher education, a product of the free education and the literacy campaigns. Today, more women than men are pursuing higher education in Iran even though the Islamic Republic tries to limit women to domains exclusive to women.

As for Afghanistan, that's the place where women were required to wear the burqa in public. (wiki:human rights in afghanistan)

So US and British Force's, what about them? They have women but I've never seen a soldier in a burqa. Or is it as I suspect that the Afghani government has no power over our force's?

Ahmadinejad being the jerk that he is shouldn't make us think that Iran is the ultimate hellhole of the universe: other countries are closer to that.

Keep in mind that, in terms of real political power, Ahmedenijad has about squat power, plus or minus jackshit. Khomeini was very effective in ensuring that political power rests solely in the hands of the ulema and, ultimately, the Ayatollah, currently Khomeini, though he does have a successor picked out, iirc, though I forget his name.

Keep in mind that, in terms of real political power, Ahmedenijad has about squat power, plus or minus jackshit.

Can I incorporate that into my idiolect?

Can I incorporate that into my idiolect?

It's a very technical analysis, I forgot to include the fuck-all confidence level, but there ya go. I'd rather you only use it in well-cited references or it will enter the lay parlance and lose the respect such thoroughly technical terms deserve. :(

I don't think that it would be catastrophic for the west to adopt some aspects of Sharia Law.Unless as you said it was interoperated as it has been done in Iran. In Iran it is apparently the law for women to wear those dress thingys that cover their face and that they are not allowed to leave the house unless they are with a man. Is this to do with Sharia, or is it just a law invented by the government? ( if it is a law at all)
No, women have to cover their hair in Iran, not their face.

What they do wear, however, varies greatly.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42393000/jpg/_42393320_styles203.jpg

And women in Iran can leave the house without a man. It's just that in many areas of Iran they're stongly encouraged not to do that.

Segregation of the sexes happens to a large degree though.

In Iran, only the Allatoyah votes. In most other Middle Eastern counties, no one votes.
What? No, that's wrong.

Iran has elections, and there's a new presidential election coming up this year, on June 12th. Ahmadinejad is up against former president Khatami - one can only hope the latter will get the majority.

Regardless, Iran has universal suffrage. Women can vote as well, and does so. (Of course, that all candidates have to be approved by the Guardian Council makes the elections less democratic than is desirable...)

And it could be mentioned that the constitution specifies that five of the seats in Parliament shall represent non-Muslim religious minorities, so there's a jewish representative there as well as four other representatives of minorities.

Keep in mind that, in terms of real political power, Ahmedenijad has about squat power, plus or minus jackshit. Khomeini was very effective in ensuring that political power rests solely in the hands of the ulema and, ultimately, the Ayatollah, currently Khomeini, though he does have a successor picked out, iirc, though I forget his name.

Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran nowadays, after Khomeini died in 1989...

So US and British Force's, what about them? They have women but I've never seen a soldier in a burqa. Or is it as I suspect that the Afghani government has no power over our force's?

Were required. Under Taliban rule.

Afghanistan still has Sharia law? Ho hum. Learn something new everyday.

The Constitution says Islam is the official religion and that no law can be passed which contrary to Islam.

The Constitution says Islam is the official religion and that no law can be passed which contrary to Islam.

Sharia =/= Islam.

Meh, your slightly wrong again, Afghanistan has elections, so do Nigeria- I know that it is not in the middle east, but it still has some Sharia Law.

Just northern Nigeria, and it only applies to Muslims.

Sharia =/= Islam.

I'm aware, but Afghanistan even has anti-apostasy laws.

I'm aware, but Afghanistan even has anti-apostasy laws.

That still doesnt equate to Sharia.

Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran nowadays, after Khomeini died in 1989...

Ah....that would be good to know. Funny enough, I just recently became interested in Iran (and soon as this horrid semester ends...which I guess would actually be called graduation in my case, I plan to continue getting to know this country a bit better), and the books I've read were somewhat outdated, the most recent one going up to, and stopping at, 1989 apparently, though it seemed like it was from the mid-90's.

<----pwnt by out-of-date publications :(

So US and British Force's, what about them? They have women but I've never seen a soldier in a burqa. Or is it as I suspect that the Afghani government has no power over our force's?

Just US and UK forces? Afaik almost all countries with troops in Afghanistan have women over there.

I think that :
1.They don't give a shit about afghani law anyway because Karzai exists only as long as the US want to.
2.To avoid troubles with local traditions (because the burqa is a tradition) women soldiers are either -ordered to keep to a stricter modesty near afghanis (not a burqa, but maybe something close to a hijab) -ordered to keep away from afghani civilians.

#2 is just my guesses, mind you.

In Iran, only the Allatoyah votes. In most other Middle Eastern counties, no one votes.

False.

In Iran men and women vote (though womens' votes count less iirc).
In Pakistan men and women vote.
In Afghanistan men and women vote.
In Iraq women men and vote (and voted under Saddam's regime, too).
In Kuwait men and women vote.
In Yemen men and women vote.
In Oman men and women vote.
The UAE and Saudi Arabia are absolute monarchies afaik, so no elections at all.

Keep in mind that, in terms of real political power, Ahmedenijad has about squat power, plus or minus jackshit. Khomeini was very effective in ensuring that political power rests solely in the hands of the ulema and, ultimately, the Ayatollah, currently Khomeini, though he does have a successor picked out, iirc, though I forget his name.

Sir, Khomeini died about 20 years ago iirc.

OMG ZOMBIE AYATOLLAH!

And there's not just ONE ayatollah. There are many ayatollahs, though one is the chief.

Sir, Khomeini died about 20 years ago iirc.

OMG ZOMBIE AYATOLLAH!

And there's not just ONE ayatollah. There are many ayatollahs, though one is the chief.

One Ayatollah to rule them all,
one Ayatollah to find them,
one Ayatollah to bring them all,
and in Iran bind them.

One Ayatollah to rule them all,
one Ayatollah to find them,
one Ayatollah to bring them all,
and in Iran bind them.

No, no, it's the White House to bind them. Remember, Obama is supposed to be Sauron.

No, no, it's the White House to bind them. Remember, Obama is supposed to be Sauron.

So the iranian ayatollahs are supposed to be elves?:D

So the iranian ayatollahs are supposed to be elves?:D

The head gear and beard hide the pointy chin and ears. The give away is the hopping and frolicking when they start the Ayatollah chant.

Just US and UK forces? Afaik almost all countries with troops in Afghanistan have women over there.

I think that :
1.They don't give a shit about afghani law anyway because Karzai exists only as long as the US want to.
2.To avoid troubles with local traditions (because the burqa is a tradition) women soldiers are either -ordered to keep to a stricter modesty near afghanis (not a burqa, but maybe something close to a hijab) -ordered to keep away from afghani civilians.

#2 is just my guesses, mind you.

I know that there are more countries with women in Afghanistan than the US and UK, I just couldn't be asked to list them all so I just chose the main 2.

My guess would be #1 because the US are basicly in control of Iraq. I doubt that Karzai is anything more than a puppet.

I've observed on media that Islam is a much more powerful source of contention than it is here in North America. I've also noticed that some British members of NSG vocalize a lot of anti-Islam sentiment, notwithstanding majority NSG's stance on religion of course.

In the anti-Islam perspective, some of the misgivings of Islamic integration which I've read on various sources, ranging from the Al-Jazeera to the anal fissures of Stormfront is that:

- Islam is destroying European culture
- Islam is destroying European politics and liberal ideals

and so on.

Is the "Islamic threat" merely an inflated CNN phenomenon entirely unrepresentative of the appreciative, docile aspect of the European Muslim population, or is there a genuine radicalization in this group of people?

If that is true, would European members, and especially UK members describe how Islam/Muslims are affecting European culture and politics, and to what extent has political Islamification in Europe undergone?




In my Canadian perspective, immigrant Muslims seem like a more conservative group of people who are more concerned with putting food on the table, rather than what media has apparently portrayed Muslims as being a bunch of protesting extremists.

The only Islamification I've seen here is the establishment of mosques and halal markets, which I wholly welcome as a benefit of peaceful multiculturalism in the post-9/11 era, where ordinary citizens get a chance to witness the average-Muhammad side of Islam.

Btw, I have yet to see Little Mosque in the Praries.



Islam wants to force the entire world to except its laws and religion period,
and if we don't then they feel they must kill us.

Islam wants to force the entire world to except its laws and religion period,
and if we don't then they feel they must kill us.

Where did you get that from?

Islam wants to force the entire world to except its laws and religion period,
and if we don't then they feel they must kill us.

There are around 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, who are, in turn separated into their own discrete sects etc.

We would need some very compelling evidence to show that all 1.5 billion of them want us to "except [sic]" its laws and religion.

Where did you get that from?

Obviously from factually accurate documentaries like Team America: World Police.

Obviously from factually accurate documentaries like Team America: World Police.

Lol, I always found Team America to be quite informative.

Islam wants to force the entire world to except its laws and religion period,
and if we don't then they feel they must kill us.

A system of faith has a will of its own now?

A system of faith has a will of its own now?

Muslim hive mind. *nods*

A system of faith has a will of its own now?

Don't forget the warnings.

"We are Islam. Resistance is Futile. You will be Allah-similated."

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/102/threadnecromancyns1nf0.jpg

*Flees*

Islam wants to force the entire world to except its laws and religion period,
and if we don't then they feel they must kill us.

Ahahahahaha, o yeah.

Tell that one round latin America. Tell me how ye got on.