NationStates Jolt Archive

Not really. Not any more than any other subjectively defined term.

Language tends to work that way. Even a word with a commonly understood denotation can have different connotations between different people.


But, at least in use with academia, or with bureaucracy, the word doesn't need to be qualified, since there is already an official definition.

Because the person would have to qualify what he actually means by virginity when he says it, I cannot derive any meaning from the term alone.You couldn't derive anything that isn't meaningless from it anyway.

because someone who decided they thought of collating copies as sex would have lost their virginity doing so. it's not exactly meaningless, but it means that we'd have a hard time discussing the subject in groups larger than 2.Okay, then it could be qualified more.

Perhaps something like "An activity between two or more people with the intention of causing orgasm in at least one of them."

But, at least in use with academia, or with bureaucracy, the word doesn't need to be qualified, since there is already an official definition.

Why would you care about the definition of the word "virgin" in academia or bureaucracy?

That's like worrying about the phrase "I bought something" in academia and bureaucracy.

Just because a term is nonspecific doesn't make it suddenly devoid of meaning.

Perhaps something like "An activity between two or more people with the intention of causing orgasm in at least one of them."

Cybersex?

Why would you care about the definition of the word "virgin" in academia or bureaucracy?

That's like worrying about the phrase "I bought something" in academia and bureaucracy.


It can be useful, for instance in the medical bureaucracy, to know if someone is a virgin or not.


Just because a term is non-specific doesn't make it suddenly devoid of meaning.

But it is devoid of meaning in itself, it is only meaningful when someone attaches their own subjective meaning to it.

Though if I was to be really philosophical, I could say the same is true for all words, but I'm not going down that route.

My first time driving a car was kind of lame. The driving instructor was cool enough, but it was just so much more...mundane than I'd expected. It wasn't really until I got my Civic that I really got to enjoy driving. Which is amusing, considering it's a fucking Civic. And burgundy. ...Fine...plum.

Though I can safely say, driving a car for the first time was still more memorable than the first time I got laid.

Well, I remember it very well. My brother taught me how to drive, and he was a race car driver. We used this old beat-to-hell buick skylark with the 350 V8, that he had slapped a turbocharger on so it turned about 450 horsepower.

Yes... I remember quite clearly.

Okay, then it could be qualified more.

Perhaps something like "An activity between two or more people with the intention of causing orgasm in at least one of them."

that seems like a plausible place to start, at least. though it does push back my virginity loss by a year or three.

My first time driving a car was kind of lame. The driving instructor was cool enough, but it was just so much more...mundane than I'd expected. It wasn't really until I got my Civic that I really got to enjoy driving. Which is amusing, considering it's a fucking Civic. And burgundy. ...Fine...plum.

Though I can safely say, driving a car for the first time was still more memorable than the first time I got laid.
My first time driving a car was somewhat exciting, I was nervous and drove around an empty parking lot. I ran over a high curb and my dad and I got out to look for damage and there was a scratch in the wheel well which he promised not to tell my mom about.

So it was sort of like the first time I got laid except that my dad wasn't there in the second case and my bf at the time was.

Perhaps something like "An activity between two or more people with the intention of causing orgasm in at least one of them."

So if someone jacked me off, that would count as sex?

It can be useful, for instance in the medical bureaucracy, to know if someone is a virgin or not.

A question that can be asked and answered just as easily with "have you ever engaged in <sex act>."

But it is devoid of meaning in itself, it is only meaningful when someone attaches their own subjective meaning to it.

Though if I was to be really philosophical, I could say the same is true for all words, but I'm not going down that route.

Again, it has a meaning. Virgin = "One who has not performed an action they deem to be sexual in nature."

So if someone jacked me off, that would count as sex?

You missed the "two or more" part, I assume?

So if someone jacked me off, that would count as sex?

Why on Earth not?

Well, I remember it very well. My brother taught me how to drive, and he was a race car driver. We used this old beat-to-hell buick skylark with the 350 V8, that he had slapped a turbocharger on so it turned about 450 horsepower.

Yes... I remember quite clearly.

My first time driving a car was somewhat exciting, I was nervous and drove around an empty parking lot. I ran over a high curb and my dad and I got out to look for damage and there was a scratch in the wheel well which he promised not to tell my mom about.

So it was sort of like the first time I got laid except that my dad wasn't there in the second case and my bf at the time was.

You lucky people and your "being taught to drive by family." My first driving experience was when I was signed up for driving lessons after getting my permit. Which was "fun" in that I was driving, but was all in all somewhat dull and procedural.

Cybersex?

well, it didn't restrict it by physical proximity, so as long as the other end of the cybering is a person...

Virgin = "One who has not performed an action they deem to be sexual in nature."

Masturbation, at least to fantasies or to images, is pretty "sexual in nature."

A question that can be asked and answered just as easily with "have you ever engaged in <sex act>."


What if you're creating a from with scarce space. Instead of having one of the options "have you ever engaged in sexual intercourse?", you could merely have 'Virgin' as a tickbox.


Again, it has a meaning. Virgin = "One who has not performed an action they deem to be sexual in nature."

Fine, not meaningless, just useless.

Masturbation, at least to fantasies or to images, is pretty "sexual in nature."

One could argue that masturbation makes one no longer a virgin. Though it's not a claim I'd make.

Fine then, we'll include the "between two or more people" part.

You missed the "two or more" part, I assume?

You know, circle jerk isn't just internet slang.

So? It still tells me, at least, that they are more abnormal than most people.
Not really.

And that they are either abnormal, or inept with women, and realistically, the latter being a strong possibility.
Ok, so now we're getting somewhere, you assume ineptitude with women. What if we're talking about a woman? Is she assumed to be a prude?

Why on Earth not?

Why should it be that, why completely change the meaning?

What if you're creating a from with scarce space. Instead of having one of the options "have you ever engaged in sexual intercourse?", you could merely have 'Virgin' as a tickbox.

And this matters, why? Who in their right mind would give a shit about real estate on a piece of paper over accuracy in language?

Fine, not meaningless, just useless.

Far from useless, unless every subjective concept is suddenly rendered similarly useless.

well, it didn't restrict it by physical proximity, so as long as the other end of the cybering is a person...

It certainly counts literally, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me. It's still a fantasy, really, not "the real thing."

You lucky people and your "being taught to drive by family." My first driving experience was when I was signed up for driving lessons after getting my permit. Which was "fun" in that I was driving, but was all in all somewhat dull and procedural.
My first several driving experiences were dull... it only got somewhat exciting when I left the parking lot and took back roads to go home... although really, I didn't like driving until I got to drive by myself on the highway. Due to graduated licensing and my inability to pay my own insurance, this didn't happen until like three years after I first started driving.

And this matters, why? Who in their right mind would give a shit about real estate on a piece of paper over accuracy in language?


It doesn't matter, I'm just telling you how the term can be useful.


Far from useless, unless every subjective concept is suddenly rendered similarly useless.

It's useless because not only is it subjective, it's not a value judgement either, so I don't even know whether you view it positively or negatively.

One could argue that masturbation makes one no longer a virgin.

Well, that would push everyone's dates back a bit....

Why should it be that, why completely change the meaning?

How is it completely changing the meaning? You're engaging in a physical activity with another person that aims at orgasms... hell, it even involves genitalia, which is a questionable criterion as far as I'm concerned.

Our obsession with "penetration" hardly seems like a particularly good way of conceiving of sexual activity.

It certainly counts literally, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me. It's still a fantasy, really, not "the real thing."
Yeah... given that all my "sex" lately has been via webcam, I would agree with this... it's nowhere near as satisfying.

My first several driving experiences were dull... it only got somewhat exciting when I left the parking lot and took back roads to go home... although really, I didn't like driving until I got to drive by myself on the highway. Due to graduated licensing and my inability to pay my own insurance, this didn't happen until like three years after I first started driving.

Ah. Yeah I was in the same boat, though I got on the highway much sooner. Nothing like cruising down the highway in your newly obtained car (and a surprise, no less) while your father tries to shout over the wind on what to do to avoid causing a pile-up.

Ah, those were the days.

It doesn't matter, I'm just telling you how the term can be useful.

If it doesn't matter, how is it useful?

It's useless because not only is it subjective, it's not a value judgement either, so I don't even know whether you view it positively or negatively.

And who honestly cares about attaching value to it, beyond Victorian prudes?

It certainly counts literally, but it seems a bit of a stretch to me. It's still a fantasy, really, not "the real thing."

yeah, and even adding physical proximity alone doesn't seem to get there. my initial intuition would be to deny that, for example, people masturbating in the same room but only touching themselves are having sex.

what i want to know is what happens if we get star trek-style holodecks?

I think you and I have a different definition of arbitrary.


Yes. You apparently are comfortable using the word 'arbitrary' in an arbitrary fashion.


I don't read it as a moral judgement in the least.


If you are claiming that you can 'tell something about someone' then there are, at elast, overtones, of moral judgment.


Define medical judgement, but I don't think I see it as that either.


If you are claiming that 'virginity' equates to a certain state, then that is abiological/medical descriptor.


Only if you choose to attach a vague meaning to it.


It HAS a vague meaning to it. You, yourself, have ridden roughshod over the definition of it.


Just because it's hard for one person to know for sure that another person is a virgin, does not in the least mean that the term virgin itself does not have a meaning.


Actually, it kind of does.

If the 'test' of a virgin was blood on bedsheets, and you are not a virgin if there's no blood... then clearly the definition doesn't ACTUALLY require penetration, or anything to do with sex.


It is absolute, there can be no exceptions to that.


Your ignorance is not my problem. Buying back your virginity is enjoying a resurgence now, but it's not new.


Well, I define it as penetration of vagina, or anus, with genitalia, and possibly also the rubbing of genitalia together, but I'm not sure about that one.


That's... vague.


If no one is average, then what you've described as average, is not actually average.

So, since 2 and 3 are not 2.5, the average of 2 and 3 can't be?

Yeah... given that all my "sex" lately has been via webcam, I would agree with this... it's nowhere near as satisfying.

Could be worse. You could be not getting any, and in a short drought. (Did I spell that right? It's late.)

How is it completely changing the meaning? You're engaging in a physical activity with another person that aims at orgasms... hell, it even involves genitalia, which is a questionable criterion as far as I'm concerned.

Our obsession with "penetration" hardly seems like a particularly good way of conceiving of sexual activity.

It's still too broad for my liking, not specific enough to be useful.

what i want to know is what happens if we get star trek-style holodecks?

Still fantasy, just highly developed fantasy.

It's still too broad for my liking, not specific enough to be useful.

What use do you have in mind for which it would not be appropriate?

Could be worse. You could be not getting any, and in a short drought. (Did I spell that right? It's late.)
Firefox's spell check says that you spelled it right.

And yeah, I suppose I'm masturbating more and for longer than I would if not for the webcam "sex".

Firefox's spell check says that you spelled it right.

And yeah, I suppose I'm masturbating more and for longer than I would if not for the webcam "sex".

Better than the alternative, I guess. I think...

Firefox's spell check says that you spelled it right.

And yeah, I suppose I'm masturbating more and for longer than I would if not for the webcam "sex".

This is the sort of occassion on which some people would say pics or it didn't happen...

<_< >_>

This is the sort of occassion on which some people would say pics or it didn't happen...

<_< >_>

Hawt physicists, and whatnot.

>.<

Still fantasy, just highly developed fantasy.

it seems to me that it would at least possibly push awfully close to the line. we'd need some sort of sexual turing test.

This is the sort of occassion on which some people would say pics or it didn't happen...

<_< >_>

and in a way... I'm glad you said it before me.

can you forward me any pics Dakini sends? :D

This is the sort of occassion on which some people would say pics or it didn't happen...

<_< >_>
We have this "no recording without clothing" agreement.

Better than the alternative, I guess. I think...
More orgasms = better, yes. :p

Perhaps something like "An activity between two or more people with the intention of causing orgasm in at least one of them."

Heh, except that I know of multiple people who have deliberately stopped short of orgasm for one reason or another, but who would still consider what they were doing "sex." The fact is, there simply does not exist a definition of "sex" or "virginity" with which everyone will agree - so why worry about it? :)

We have this "no recording without clothing" agreement.

Awesome. We do?




:D

Awesome. We do?




:D
We = me and my bf.

We = me and my bf.

Spoilsport.... :p

Interesting to see the debate over the definition of what constitutes a virgin.

Now to answer the OP's question,

If by losing virginity you mean sex with a female (as I am male) I would tell you I was 14.

If by losing virginity it means any sexual act then I was 12.


16 at my now-ex girlfriend's, on her 16th.

Cheap birthday present there. :p

Their lives were in my hands - it was amazing.

*Takes two steps back*

Cybersex?

Don't forget phone sex. Would these really count as having lost your virginity?

*Takes two steps back*

:D Fear me!

Don't forget phone sex.

So twentieth century.

So twentieth century.

Well I enjoy the old ways, admittedly the last time I engaged in phone sex was 2002 but still.

Gee that seems so long ago now. *feels old* :(

i lost my virginity at 14 to the woman that i love and we are still together... she was my first and last...

losing your virginity=

female- breaking the thin membrane of skin in the vagina called the hymen, although personally defined as intercourse with a man.

Then I was born a non-virgin.

15. It happened at my neighbor's house while the parents were away at work and after school. My gf at the time was best friend's with the babysitter (same age). After that every time we were left alone (even with parents in the house) we ere like rabbits. I guess after you pop the cork off the champagne there's no reason to stop the bubbly from flowing.

Let's be honest, the whole structure of this poll + thread is about this guy feeling sorry for himself that he can't get laid. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Flamebait much?

15. It happened at my neighbor's house while the parents were away at work and after school. My gf at the time was best friend's with the babysitter (same age). After that every time we were left alone (even with parents in the house) we ere like rabbits. I guess after you pop the cork off the champagne there's no reason to stop the bubbly from flowing.

Mhmm a threesome in the works, righfor the picking

Still a virgin... and 26. It's more of a choice due to my religious convictions. I am looking for the right one, and I am waiting for marriage. It's my choice, my belief, and my life.

And this is probably the first time I've ever said this anywhere. I generally don't talk about it since, I figure that very few would understand my reasoning as to why.

15ish? somewhere around there, at some stupid party I tagged along to.

First things first, I define "losing virginity" as "having sex for the first time", and "sex" as "anything intended to be fun, from which you could realistically catch an STD if done unprotected".

By those definitions, I'm a virgin, which has a lot to do with the intersection of the sets "people who feel attracted to me" and "people I feel attracted to" being very, very small, and many of those that have been in that small intersection being total psychos.

In other words, just bad luck.

As for my age, I'm ooooold ;P .

and "sex" as "anything intended to be fun, from which you could realistically catch an STD if done unprotected".

Why "if done unprotected"? If the chance of contracting STDs is the relevant factor, shouldn't condom usage make it no longer sex--or at least less so?

Cybersex?Heh. I guess I forgot to stipulate there would be physical contact between them.

So if someone jacked me off, that would count as sex?I don't see why not.

Heh, except that I know of multiple people who have deliberately stopped short of orgasm for one reason or another, but who would still consider what they were doing "sex." The fact is, there simply does not exist a definition of "sex" or "virginity" with which everyone will agree - so why worry about it? :)Good point. I was going to include 'sexual pleasure' instead of 'an orgasm', but 'sexual pleasure' is more vague.

I lost it too late. Way, way, WAY too late.
And I'm really cross at myself for having waited too long. It was stupid and pointless, and I had way too much time to build up fears.

But then again, it was quite a while ago, and boy did I have good times since then. :)

Why "if done unprotected"? If the chance of contracting STDs is the relevant factor, shouldn't condom usage make it no longer sex--or at least less so?

You might be reading it the wrong way. My reasoning is as follows:

Anything that is fun and from which you can get an STD surely must be considered sex (perhaps with some very obvious exceptions like sharing needles?).
If you then add something to prevent the STD, that doesn't make it stop being sex.

Bleh maybe I'm just using a complicated definition so I can consider a certain incident to be "not sex".

losing your virginity=

female- breaking the thin membrane of skin in the vagina called the hymen,

Wow, then I guess I'm kind of like the anti-Mary, since as far as I know I was born without a hymen. Never had one to lose.

I was a born slut!

Yes. You apparently are comfortable using the word 'arbitrary' in an arbitrary fashion.


No, I use it in the correct fashion. As in, words used in science, in law, or in anything else, are all equally arbitrary. There is no objective way to decide which parameters something has to fulfil in order for that word to apply to it, that is completely decided subjectively by people.


If you are claiming that you can 'tell something about someone' then there are, at elast, overtones, of moral judgment.


Again, only if you assume that being abnormal, or whatever other things it may tell you, are morally bad, which I don't think are.


If you are claiming that 'virginity' equates to a certain state, then that is abiological/medical descriptor.


It's not a medical state in itself, but it could imply a certain medical state (as in, free from STD's).


It HAS a vague meaning to it. You, yourself, have ridden roughshod over the definition of it.


It doesn't really have a vague meaning. I know exactly what someone means when they describe themselves as virgin, this pedantic intellectual masturbation does not affect that fact.


Actually, it kind of does.

If the 'test' of a virgin was blood on bedsheets, and you are not a virgin if there's no blood... then clearly the definition doesn't ACTUALLY require penetration, or anything to do with sex.


That only tells us that the test is unreliable, not that the word virgin does not have a meaning.


Your ignorance is not my problem. Buying back your virginity is enjoying a resurgence now, but it's not new.


What do you mean?


That's... vague.


Not at all, it's the very opposite. It really only allows for 2 or 3 specific manoeuvres.


So, since 2 and 3 are not 2.5, the average of 2 and 3 can't be?

There's a difference between statistical averages, and actual averages. When you encounter a decimal point whilst using a discreet continuous distribution, you simply round up.

Well... Looking at nude women in some way, shape or form should remove your virginity, shouldn't it?
Sorry, SoWiBi beat you to it.
Perhaps we could start a business whereby everyone who wonders whether or not they are still a virgin can come to us and be engaged in a series of acts that will remove all doubt. It'll be kind of like goal-oriented prostitution. :)
I love this idea.
It'd be best if we grouped the various virgin potentials in like-minded teams so that they could rectify each other's situation - it's more efficient, saving non-virgin resources and all that. Of course, all non-virgins who're still into fumbling, awkward sex may volunteer, too.
I'm sure taking virginities is someone's kink.


I hate how everybody on the internet ignores my glorious set of boobs, enchanting feminine facial features and alluring, firm yet curvy ass.
Needs more pics of all the aboce.
Gosh. I guess I'll have to let my best friend know that she lost her virginity to a bicycle when she was four. That bicycle is going to have to be prosecuted for child molestation now...
There was that guy who was prosecuted for having sex with his bike. One can only assume it goes both ways.
Here's my suggestion:

You count as having lost your virginity if you have engaged in an activity you think of as sex.
I can dig this.
So twentieth century.
Snail mail sex.
Then I was born a non-virgin.
Whore.
Wow, then I guess I'm kind of like the anti-Mary, since as far as I know I was born without a hymen. Never had one to lose.

I was a born slut!
Double whore.
15. It happened at my neighbor's house while the parents were away at work and after school. My gf at the time was best friend's with the babysitter (same age). After that every time we were left alone (even with parents in the house) we ere like rabbits. I guess after you pop the cork off the champagne there's no reason to stop the bubbly from flowing.

Once you pop you can't stop.

Early twenties. Sex in the teens is a bunch of awkward teens probably doing it wrong and being scared. I started from that assumption, and waited until people actually got experience.

No, I use it in the correct fashion. As in, words used in science, in law, or in anything else, are all equally arbitrary. There is no objective way to decide which parameters something has to fulfil in order for that word to apply to it, that is completely decided subjectively by people.


So - 'litre' which is defined as being a certain absolutely specific density liquid, of a certain absolutely specific mass, at a certian absolutely specific temperature and even a certain absolutely specific pressure... is 'arbitrary'?

Yes, your use of 'arbitrary' is arbitrary.


It's not a medical state in itself, but it could imply a certain medical state (as in, free from STD's).


Pandapoop. You can be born with some STD's, contract them from needle-use, contract them from non-sexual contact, or semi-sexual contact.


It doesn't really have a vague meaning. I know exactly what someone means when they describe themselves as virgin, this pedantic intellectual masturbation does not affect that fact.


You pretend to too much knowledge. I've seen the question come up enough times 'Am I Still A Virgin If..." to be aware that a lot of people don't even know what they THEMSELVES mean when they describe themselves as a virgin. The idea that you'd have a better idea than THEM, is frankly laughable.


That only tells us that the test is unreliable, not that the word virgin does not have a meaning.


Missed the point, huh? If virginity can be determined to have been lost, without regard to the actual presence or absence of cocks in arseholes or vaginas, then the value is arbitrary at best... and nonsensical at worst.

And since the actual apertures allowed have varied with time and culture, the term becomes even more nonsensical.


Not at all, it's the very opposite. It really only allows for 2 or 3 specific manoeuvres.


2. Or 3. That's only a 50% difference in values. Not vague at all.


There's a difference between statistical averages, and actual averages. When you encounter a decimal point whilst using a discreet continuous distribution, you simply round up.

Yes. And people are not decimalised. So there are no absolute average people. That's the point. We're ALL either rounded up or down.

Never lost mine. Enthusiastically got rid of it at the first opportunity.

So - 'litre' which is defined as being a certain absolutely specific density liquid, of a certain absolutely specific mass, at a certian absolutely specific temperature and even a certain absolutely specific pressure... is 'arbitrary'?


Yes, yes it is.

It's had the veneer of "precision" added on to make it seem more "scientific", whatever the hell that is, but it's still arbitrary.

Yes, yes it is.

It's had the veneer of "precision" added on to make it seem more "scientific", whatever the hell that is, but it's still arbitrary.

So a precisely defined volume of water at a precisely defined temperature and pressure is arbitrary? How so?

Taking into account the meaning of the word arbitrary

ar·bi·trar·y (ärb-trr)
adj.
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

Yes, yes it is.

It's had the veneer of "precision" added on to make it seem more "scientific", whatever the hell that is, but it's still arbitrary.

I confuse...

If the word is precisely defined by relation to four other values and definitions, how is it arbitrary?

So a precisely defined volume of water at a precisely defined temperature and pressure is arbitrary? How so?

Taking into account the meaning of the word arbitrary

ar·bi·trar·y (ärb-trr)
adj.
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

Yeah, this^^

I confuse...

If the word is precisely defined by relation to four other values and definitions, how is it arbitrary?

None of the values are "natural measures". They are values selected arbitrarily by human beings.

So a precisely defined volume of water at a precisely defined temperature and pressure is arbitrary? How so?

Taking into account the meaning of the word arbitrary

ar·bi·trar·y (ärb-trr)
adj.
1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.
2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.
3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.
4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

Arbitrariness is transitive, though.

Like I said, there is an attempt to provide a veneer of precision and scientific validity to the measure, but all of the measures are fundamentally arbitrary.

Yeah, this^^

No, not really.

There is no such thing as a natural measure, there are only man-determined arbitrary measures. Yeah, sure, there's a shiny sphere of metal that's a kilogram, but, tell me, how was that mass decided upon?

No, not really.

There is no such thing as a natural measure, there are only man-determined arbitrary measures. Yeah, sure, there's a shiny sphere of metal that's a kilogram, but, tell me, how was that mass decided upon?

A kilogram is defined as the mass of that shiny sphere. The original value relative to other measurements of the time may be arbitrary, but the definition of kilogram as it stands now is not. Ditto with most other metric measurements. They're either based on other measurements, or based on nature. Seconds are defined by a number of oscillations of a specific atom(IMS). Distance is how far light travels in a given number of seconds. Area is distance squared. Volume is distance cubed. Speed is distance over time. Etc, etc, etc.

I can't believe a thread on when people lost their virginity has veered in direction of discussing the arbitrariness of measurement units...

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

A kilogram is defined as the mass of that shiny sphere. The original value relative to other measurements of the time may be arbitrary, but the definition of kilgram as it stands now is not. Ditto with most other metric measurements. They're either based on other measurements, or based on nature. Seconds are defined by a number of oscillations of a specific atom(IMS). Distance is how far light travels in a given number of seconds. Area is distance squared. Volume is distance cubed. Speed is distance over time. Etc, etc, etc.

Arbitrariness is transitive.

That mass is arbitrary. It might as well have been random.

How was said specific atom's oscillations chosen as the method by which to define the second, would be my question. That's why SI units are arbitrary. They're more useful than the old Imperial system, but they're still arbitrary.

Arbitrariness is transitive.

That mass is arbitrary. It might as well have been random.

How was said specific atom's oscillations chosen as the method by which to define the second, would be my question. That's why SI units are arbitrary. They're more useful than the old Imperial system, but they're still arbitrary.

I think it's more accurate to say they were arbitrary, then when it was possible to define them based on natural occurrences they were redefined.

I can't believe a thread on when people lost their virginity has veered in direction of discussing the arbitrariness of measurement units...

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

NSG is incapable of staying on topic. It may veer back, but it always derails.

I think it's more accurate to say they were arbitrary, then when it was possible to define them based on natural occurrences they were redefined.

The selection of the values that SI measurements are based off of arbitrarily selected natural occurrences. Yes, we have extremely precise, extremely accurate measures of these phenomenon, but the use of these phenomenon is arbitrary.

And, like I said, arbitrariness is transitive.

SI is a whole heck of a lot better than using the measurements of some long-dead kings body bits, but it's still arbitrary.

So - 'litre' which is defined as being a certain absolutely specific density liquid, of a certain absolutely specific mass, at a certian absolutely specific temperature and even a certain absolutely specific pressure... is 'arbitrary'?


Yes, exactly, good to see you're getting it now.


Yes, your use of 'arbitrary' is arbitrary.


No, the word is correct.


Pandapoop. You can be born with some STD's, contract them from needle-use, contract them from non-sexual contact, or semi-sexual contact.


Hence me saying 'can', not 'is', but it is a good indicator, even if it isn't absolute.


You pretend to too much knowledge. I've seen the question come up enough times 'Am I Still A Virgin If..."

The question is usually to do with accidental (yes, it can happen) or involuntary sexual intercourse. With the latter, the only reason it becomes vague there is because people see it as unfair that people who have been raped count as not being virgins, so they choose to act as if they are still virgins, but that doesn't change the technical truth. If it's literally 'am I still a virgin if I've only received fellatio' or something similar, then it's just ignorance.


to be aware that a lot of people don't even know what they THEMSELVES mean when they describe themselves as a virgin. The idea that you'd have a better idea than THEM, is frankly laughable.


The same is true with absolutely loads of words, many people don't know the exact meaning of words, even if the meaning is absolute.


Missed the point, huh? If virginity can be determined to have been lost
, without regard to the actual presence or absence of cocks in arseholes or vaginas, then the value is arbitrary at best... and nonsensical at worst.


No, that just shows that virginity CAN'T be absolutely determined, by the method you provided. If virginity was actually defined by the results of the method you provided, then what you say here could be valid, but virginity is not defined that way, so it's irrelevant.


2. Or 3. That's only a 50% difference in values. Not vague at all.


It's vague whether 'ribbing' counts as sexual intercourse or not, I'll admit that. But I'm assuming here that the definition has been decided one way or another, my point is that if you either choose the definition with 2 specific manoeuvres or the definition with 3 specific manoeuvres, then it it's not vague at all, I'm saying that we need to choose one of these definitions if you want to stop the word from being meaningless.


Yes. And people are not decimalised. So there are no absolute average people.

Absolute averages, and averages, are very different things.


That's the point. We're ALL either rounded up or down.

And my point is that some people are much closer to the absolute average than others.

So - 'litre' which is defined as being a certain absolutely specific density liquid, of a certain absolutely specific mass, at a certian absolutely specific temperature and even a certain absolutely specific pressure... is 'arbitrary'?

yes, in the sense that there is no particular reason that that much of that liquid should be the basis of a system of measurement other than mere social agreement to use it as one. it has no link to independent reasons. if the liter was instead this much volume, it would work just as well and could be defined just as precisely; the choice between those options was arbitrary. this makes it different from, say, the value of pi.

I can't believe a thread on when people lost their virginity has veered in direction of discussing the arbitrariness of measurement units...

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

All debates on this forum eventually devolve into either one of three things:
1. Spam
2. Flame-war
3. A painfully thorough discussion of the definition and etymology of a single word.

And in that vein, I'd like to discuss what exactly Ifreann means by the word "shiny." I don't think it means what he thinks it means.

I think it's more accurate to say they were arbitrary, then when it was possible to define them based on natural occurrences they were redefined.

the redefinitions are all of the form "let's get a more precise definition of how long this is." the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second is not a natural unit of measure.

3. A painfully thorough discussion of the definition and etymology of a single word.

philosophy ftw

All debates on this forum eventually devolve into either one of three things:
1. Spam
2. Flame-war
3. A painfully thorough discussion of the definition and etymology of a single word.

And in that vein, I'd like to discuss what exactly Ifreann means by the word "shiny." I don't think it means what he thinks it means.

I have my own obscure definition of the word shiny, used only by me and a blind Dutchman lost in the Sahara desert. Pickles are shiny.

Which virginity now? (If you are like a bi guy?) :D

Which virginity now? (If you are like a bi guy?) :D

The one on the left.

No, not really.

There is no such thing as a natural measure, there are only man-determined arbitrary measures.

No, you're wrong - all those connected measurements centre around relation to one value - which is the triple point of water at 0 degrees.

Which consequently leads to out second base definer - water.

So we have a natural measurement point, and a natural standard of measurement, both connected - and everything else stems from that arrangement. Volume, density and mass are all defined by that standard, at that natural measure.

yes, in the sense that there is no particular reason that that much of that liquid should be the basis of a system of measurement other than mere social agreement to use it as one. it has no link to independent reasons. if the liter was instead this much volume, it would work just as well and could be defined just as precisely; the choice between those options was arbitrary. this makes it different from, say, the value of pi.
you're wrong there. It's not an arbitrary volume. One litre is equivalent to 0.001 cubic metres, and a metre was originally defined as 1/10,000,000 of the distance from the equator to the north pole.
It's now defined by International Bureau of Weights and Measures as the exact distance travelled by light in an absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second.

No, the word is correct.


The word is correct, but your rape of the language isn't.


Hence me saying 'can', not 'is', but it is a good indicator, even if it isn't absolute.


Which is stil lhorseshit, like every one of these generalisations you've thrown out so far. You can keep saying that you 'can tell things about people', and you keep being shown that you really can't... but you're damned persistent.


The question is usually to do with accidental (yes, it can happen) or involuntary sexual intercourse. With the latter, the only reason it becomes vague there is because people see it as unfair that people who have been raped count as not being virgins, so they choose to act as if they are still virgins, but that doesn't change the technical truth. If it's literally 'am I still a virgin if I've only received fellatio' or something similar, then it's just ignorance.


Again, more crap. Most of the questions tend to be along the lines of 'are we virgins if we... kissed, kissed with tongues, did oral, did anal, used a dildo... etc.

And the reasons why those questions persist, is because the term 'virgin' is so meaningless, and yet loaded with so much baggage.

Is it ignorace to not know the definition of a word that doesn't have any consistent definitions? You say yes... I say otehrwise.


The same is true with absolutely loads of words, many people don't know the exact meaning of words, even if the meaning is absolute.


Funny. A minute ago you were saying there were no absolute meanings...


No, that just shows that virginity CAN'T be absolutely determined, by the method you provided. If virginity was actually defined by the results of the method you provided, then what you say here could be valid, but virginity is not defined that way, so it's irrelevant.


But it has been defined that way. And in times when virginity 'mattered' a whole lot more than it does now. And that's kind of the point. If your new virgin bride was a virgin because she bled on the sheets, then what is the REAL definition of virgin in that time? It's nothing to do with 'sex', and everything to do with blood.


It's vague whether 'ribbing' counts as sexual intercourse or not, I'll admit that. But I'm assuming here that the definition has been decided one way or another, my point is that if you either choose the definition with 2 specific manoeuvres or the definition with 3 specific manoeuvres, then it it's not vague at all, I'm saying that we need to choose one of these definitions if you want to stop the word from being meaningless.


You're assuming that the definition has been decided one way or another.

It hasn't. There's your problem.

Knowing that, now maybe you can move on.


And my point is that some people are much closer to the absolute average than others.

But never actually AT the average. Because no one is actually average.

Which makes all your claptrap about 'abnormal' people... well, claptrap. Because there is no normal.

you're wrong there. It's not an arbitrary volume. One litre is equivalent to 0.001 cubic metres, and a metre was originally defined as 1/10,000,000 of the distance from the equator to the north pole.
It's now defined by International Bureau of Weights and Measures as the exact distance travelled by light in an absolute vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second.

and what, pray tell, is special about the distance that light travels in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom?

at least the original appealed to the human love of round numbers in base 10 (though it also turned out to be wrong).

you are confusing internal coherence of a set of social conventions with 'non-arbitrary'. but those conventions are almost entirely arbitrary (though not completely - temperature does pretty good, but it too lost some of its round number appeal after some more precise measurements were taken).


how would the system be affected if a liter was instead defined as .01 cubic meters?

Well, I'm curious. Why and where did it happen? I'm still a virgin. :(

Hah I aint saying.

NSG is incapable of staying on topic. It may veer back, but it always derails.
I know, but... arbitrariness of measurements... that's too much, even by NSG standards.

It's not a medical state in itself, but it could imply a certain medical state (as in, free from STD's).

If you want a term that would be useful in a medical sense, you really need to be moving to a less restrictive term, not a more restrictive one.

In the end, if a doctor is worried about sexual contact, he's going to have to go into detail with the patient anyways. But if he sees "virgin" and assumes it means "no sexual contact", he could miss important medical details.

It doesn't really have a vague meaning. I know exactly what someone means when they describe themselves as virgin, this pedantic intellectual masturbation does not affect that fact.

Do you?

A girl describes herself as a virgin. Has she had anal sex?

A girl describes herself as a virgin. Has she had anal sex?

One would assume not, or one coud ask.

I know, but... arbitrariness of measurements... that's too much, even by NSG standards.

NSG had no choice but to move to some other ground once it turned out that a key point of disagreement was over whether virginity had any objective meaning and how we might determine if any meaning it had was arbitrary or not.

A girl describes herself as a virgin. Has she had anal sex?

no, unless she is mistaken or lying

NSG had no choice but to move to some other ground once it turned out that a key point of disagreement was over whether virginity had any objective meaning and how we might determine if any meaning it had was arbitrary or not.See, we should have been debating whether it should have any subjective meaning to begin with, making the discussion about objectivity obsolete.

See, we should have been debating whether it should have any subjective meaning to begin with, making the discussion about objectivity obsolete.

Yeah, but that's problematic, because we all know people who are clearly not virgins who still cling to virginal notions of purity for the sake of family and/or social respect. I for one don't really think they should have this veil, but objective considerations are the only way to really do it.

20.

philosophy ftw
"In a nutshell: sex is more fun than logic. One cannot prove this, but it 'is' in the same sense that Mount Everest 'is', or that Alma Cogan 'isn't'."
-Monty Python
I have my own obscure definition of the word shiny, used only by me and a blind Dutchman lost in the Sahara desert. Pickles are shiny.

But pickels are fish and no fish are shiny so your logic fails.

14.

Btw, this thread owns SO much.

@OP:
http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~bites/threadwin.jpg

and what, pray tell, is special about the distance that light travels in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom?

at least the original appealed to the human love of round numbers in base 10 (though it also turned out to be wrong).

you are confusing internal coherence of a set of social conventions with 'non-arbitrary'. but those conventions are almost entirely arbitrary (though not completely - temperature does pretty good, but it too lost some of its round number appeal after some more precise measurements were taken).


how would the system be affected if a liter was instead defined as .01 cubic meters?

Planck units!

No, you're wrong - all those connected measurements centre around relation to one value - which is the triple point of water at 0 degrees.

Which consequently leads to out second base definer - water.

So we have a natural measurement point, and a natural standard of measurement, both connected - and everything else stems from that arrangement. Volume, density and mass are all defined by that standard, at that natural measure.

You just don't get it, do you?

I've said the exact same thing as FS, albeit he said it more eloquently.

Using the triple point of water is, as much as it hurts to admit it, just an arbitrary point off of which we base or measurements.

Who said it was meaningful? It only really meant something when women were property or when people want to be proud of being prudes.
I mean, think of all the "technical virgins" in high schools who are taking it in the bum because they're saving themselves for marriage? Is this meaningful?

I'm sorry, did you just instruct everyone reading the thread to think about high school girls taking it up the bum?

The word is correct, but your rape of the language isn't.


Because acknowledging that all, every single word ever existed, is man made, is raping it, right?


Which is stil lhorseshit, like every one of these generalisations you've thrown out so far.

Sorry, is that an argument? Are you seriously saying that it's not extremely unlikely for someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse to have a sexually transmitted disease?


You can keep saying that you 'can tell things about people', and you keep being shown that you really can't

No, they utterly fail, on every level, to show that.


Again, more crap. Most of the questions tend to be along the lines of 'are we virgins if we... kissed, kissed with tongues, did oral, did anal, used a dildo... etc.

And the reasons why those questions persist, is because the term 'virgin' is so meaningless, and yet loaded with so much baggage.

Is it ignorace to not know the definition of a word that doesn't have any consistent definitions? You say yes... I say otehrwise.


Fine, I will admit that currently, the definition is not consistent, among differing social groups and contexts. But that's irrelevant to my point anyway, my point is IF you want to make the definition consistent, then you're going to have leave the definition in a specific fashion, rather than broadening it into something meaningless and inconsistent.


Funny. A minute ago you were saying there were no absolute meanings...


Yes, I was, because absolute and arbitrary, are not mutually exclusive.


But it has been defined that way.

Irrelevant, even if it has.


And in times when virginity 'mattered' a whole lot more than it does now. And that's kind of the point. If your new virgin bride was a virgin because she bled on the sheets, then what is the REAL definition of virgin in that time? It's nothing to do with 'sex', and everything to do with blood.


No, they conclude that she is a virgin, using the evidence of blood on the sheets. They conclude that she fits the definition of having no sexual intercourse, because blood on the sheets is allegedly evidence of that. Evidence that someone fits that definition, and the definition itself, are obviously two different things, it's not hard to understand.


You're assuming that the definition has been decided one way or another.

It hasn't. There's your problem.


Yes, that's always been my problem, that's why I was saying we need to decide on a specific definition. Did you read what I originally was posting?


But never actually AT the average. Because no one is actually average.


Average is almost never defined as a specific number, if you actually understood statistics, it's usually defined as a given range.

I'm sorry, did you just instruct everyone reading the thread to think about high school girls taking it up the bum?

Well, I am now.

(All seniors and 18, of course)

See, we should have been debating whether it should have any subjective meaning to begin with, making the discussion about objectivity obsolete.

ah, but if it was purely subjective, we get all sorts of weird shit happening - virgins that just got done taking part in a gang bang, people having sex with people that are not having sex with them, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

In the end, if a doctor is worried about sexual contact, he's going to have to go into detail with the patient anyways. But if he sees "virgin" and assumes it means "no sexual contact", he could miss important medical details.


Exactly. A doctor won't ask you if you're a virgin, because that doesn't give any of the answers they need. They'll ask if you're sexually active, or in a risk group, and/or they may ask about specific practises. They'll ask questions that might tell them something relevent.

no, unless she is mistaken or lying

Or means something else by it than you do.

Lots of cultures have had history of anal intercourse as a means of 'protecting virginity'.

You just don't get it, do you?

I've said the exact same thing as FS, albeit he said it more eloquently.

Using the triple point of water is, as much as it hurts to admit it, just an arbitrary point off of which we base or measurements.

More arbitrary than the Kelvin scale, perhaps - which is one of the reasons science is wrestling with conversion to the Kelvin scale. But even being able to USE that scale is a relatively new innovation.

The use of water isn't arbitrary - it is an abundant (almost universal, within the scope of realism) measurable commodity, that occurs at both it's triple point and it's melting point readily in nature, and visibly within the scope of human witness. As such, it is probably the only strong contender... and almost certainly the best... for assignment of a range of temperature.

The methodology, the justification... temperature is about as far from actually arbitrary as you can get (at least, if we aretalking about Celsius/Centigrade or Kelvin scales).

I'm sorry, did you just instruct everyone reading the thread to think about high school girls taking it up the bum?

Much as I don't want to, I have to now, because Dakini told me to. :(

Or means something else by it than you do.

Lots of cultures have had history of anal intercourse as a means of 'protecting virginity'.

and when confronted by the fact that this implies that some gay guys are virgins despite being huge man-whores, they tend to think the better of it. yes, lots of us walk around operating with poorly thought out ideas. but the fact that we haven't done the work of clarifying them doesn't mean our current usage is right.

I'm sorry, did you just instruct everyone reading the thread to think about high school girls taking it up the bum?

Like we needed instructing?

and when confronted by the fact that this implies that some gay guys are virgins despite being huge man-whores, they tend to think the better of it.


No, they don't.


yes, lots of us walk around operating with poorly thought out ideas. but the fact that we haven't done the work of clarifying them doesn't mean our current usage is right.

Errr... what's your point?

Because acknowledging that all, every single word ever existed, is man made, is raping it, right?


We'll ignore, for the moment, that that's not even entirely true.

Instead, we'll focus on the argument that acknowledging the root of language isn't raping it - but molesting a word beyond it's physical limits, and then claiming some kind of meaning from it... IS raping the language.


Sorry, is that an argument? Are you seriously saying that it's not extremely unlikely for someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse to have a sexually transmitted disease?


Yes.

If you had any background in medical or biological science, this would be a waste of my breath.


No, they utterly fail, on every level, to show that.


Which - if true - would mean that your argument and the counter-arguments were evenly matched.


No, they conclude that she is a virgin, using the evidence of blood on the sheets. They conclude that she fits the definition of having no sexual intercourse, because blood on the sheets is allegedly evidence of that. Evidence that someone fits that definition, and the definition itself, are obviously two different things, it's not hard to understand.


Theoretically, the definition of 'virgin' meant something to do with sexual purity. Theoretically, the assumption was that 'sexual purity' meant nothing had penetrated the vagina. Theoretically.

But since the methodology is not foolproof, there is an understanding that bllod doesn't absolutely mean virgin, and lack doesn't absolutely mean non-virgin... but those facts are overlooked for convenience. Which means that the operational definition of virginity under that code, differs from the theoretical definition - and actually has nothing to do with sex.


Average is almost never defined as a specific number, if you actually understood statistics, it's usually defined as a given range.

If I understood statistics? What's that - the 'yeah, well you face smells' defence? PEOPLE are capable of being calculated by statistics. A PERSON, is not.

Sorry, is that an argument? Are you seriously saying that it's not extremely unlikely for someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse to have a sexually transmitted disease?

STDs can be transmitted during birth.

Look up tribbing if you're you know, old enough to learn about these things... there's a wikipedia page on it, but I'm not sure what we're allowed to post on here. Going by the genital contact definition of intercourse, it would fit.

But then again, genital contact doesn't necessarily exclude oral-genital contact, does it?


I can't think of too many positive adjectives that come to mind when a person hasn't had sex past a certain age unless they've just been unlucky when it comes to relationships or extremely patient.

all you are conclusively saying is that you can slap your crotch on anything and say that your not a virgin because you just had sexual intercourse... its no longer a matter of who is right or wrong, but your incredible lack of human logic... just think before you say things, okay? i know you can

We'll ignore, for the moment, that that's not even entirely true.

Instead, we'll focus on the argument that acknowledging the root of language isn't raping it - but molesting a word beyond it's physical limits, and then claiming some kind of meaning from it... IS raping the language.



Yes.

If you had any background in medical or biological science, this would be a waste of my breath.



Which - if true - would mean that your argument and the counter-arguments were evenly matched.



Theoretically, the definition of 'virgin' meant something to do with sexual purity. Theoretically, the assumption was that 'sexual purity' meant nothing had penetrated the vagina. Theoretically.

But since the methodology is not foolproof, there is an understanding that bllod doesn't absolutely mean virgin, and lack doesn't absolutely mean non-virgin... but those facts are overlooked for convenience. Which means that the operational definition of virginity under that code, differs from the theoretical definition - and actually has nothing to do with sex.



If I understood statistics? What's that - the 'yeah, well you face smells' defence? PEOPLE are capable of being calculated by statistics. A PERSON, is not.

well what is currently defined and accepted in todays english language and customs is not theory... its fact... with todays definition of the idea of virginity, hydesland and i cannot be proven wrong... all you are doing is in fact stating a simpleton thought, you cant actually disprove fact in this case... although if you would care to involve philosophy, then i could say that nothing in this world is fact, but that would seem illogical wouldnt it? everyone needs to stop being pissed off, and use your brain for a minute...

all you are conclusively saying is that you can slap your crotch on anything and say that your not a virgin because you just had sexual intercourse... its no longer a matter of who is right or wrong, but your incredible lack of human logic... just think before you say things, okay? i know you can

Patronising much?

Where is the lack of logic?

Looking at varied 'viriginity' traditions from around the world, over recorded history... we vary from conditions where exposed skin might be enough to consider you impure... to being able to take a guy in your ass, and another in your mouth and still legitimately call yourself a virgin.

The problem with claims to things like 'human logic' is that they are mindnumbingly useless - unless you can show that you are appealing to something that has equivalent value to the 'human' collective, rather than a cultural, societal, or personal meaning.

The problem with appealing to 'human logic' in this case, is that it's not a matter of logic, it's a matter of definitions based on subjective opinion.

But... way to make friends and influence people. Go you!

well what is currently defined and accepted in todays english language and customs is not theory... its fact... with todays definition of the idea of virginity, hydesland and i cannot be proven wrong... all you are doing is in fact stating a simpleton thought, you cant actually disprove fact in this case... although if you would care to involve philosophy, then i could say that nothing in this world is fact, but that would seem illogical wouldnt it? everyone needs to stop being pissed off, and use your brain for a minute...

What IS "today's definition of virginity"?

You know, since you bring it up.

and when confronted by the fact that this implies that some gay guys are virgins despite being huge man-whores, they tend to think the better of it. yes, lots of us walk around operating with poorly thought out ideas. but the fact that we haven't done the work of clarifying them doesn't mean our current usage is right.

well then you could go on and say that nothing that we today accept as fact is correct, but a theory or flawed idea...

What IS "today's definition of virginity"?

You know, since you bring it up.

go to page 11 and read on, i dont repeat myself

I was a born slut!

Sigged.

go to page 11 and read on, i dont repeat myself

But, as has been pointed out, your definition is flawed.

go to page 11 and read on, i dont repeat myself

I didn't ask you what YOU believe it is.

You claim that there's some kind of consensus. This 'today's definition'.

Fine - let's see it.

We'll ignore, for the moment, that that's not even entirely true.


What, are you saying that there are words that have some kind of transcendental, objective essence behind them? Are you saying these words existed before humans came about, we just discovered them? Because you know that's bullshit.


Instead, we'll focus on the argument that acknowledging the root of language isn't raping it - but molesting a word beyond it's physical limits, and then claiming some kind of meaning from it... IS raping the language.


This rhetoric is getting too vague to even know what you're talking about here.


Yes.

If you had any background in medical or biological science, this would be a waste of my breath.


Show me a statistic that shows that people with sexually transmitted diseases, who haven't had sexual intercourse, is not extremely rare compared to people with STI's who have had sexual intercourse, because what you're saying is completely counter-intuitive.


Theoretically, the definition of 'virgin' meant something to do with sexual purity. Theoretically, the assumption was that 'sexual purity' meant nothing had penetrated the vagina. Theoretically.

But since the methodology is not foolproof, there is an understanding that bllod doesn't absolutely mean virgin, and lack doesn't absolutely mean non-virgin... but those facts are overlooked for convenience. Which means that the operational definition of virginity under that code, differs from the theoretical definition - and actually has nothing to do with sex.
[/QUOTE]

I couldn't give a shit about these 'definitions', they have nothing to do with the definitions I've presented anyway.


A PERSON, is not.

But nobody, ever, ever, ever means, when they call someone 'average', that they represent an exact, absolute mean or median. Even statisticians, who tend to describe average values, ones that fall within the inter-quartile range.

More arbitrary than the Kelvin scale, perhaps - which is one of the reasons science is wrestling with conversion to the Kelvin scale. But even being able to USE that scale is a relatively new innovation.

The use of water isn't arbitrary - it is an abundant (almost universal, within the scope of realism) measurable commodity, that occurs at both it's triple point and it's melting point readily in nature, and visibly within the scope of human witness.

We're not talking about the arbitrariness of methods here, we're talking about the arbitrariness of words. All words are either completely arbitrary, or based off arbitrary words.

17, in the woods. It was wonderful. Then we went to Super America to get Doritos and Mountain Dew slurpees. Damn, I have a wonderful girlfriend.

What, are you saying that there are words that have some kind of transcendental, objective essence behind them? Are you saying these words existed before humans came about, we just discovered them? Because you know that's bullshit.


Ignoring for a second concepts like 'oum'... what do you think onomatopoeia is?


This rhetoric is getting too vague to even know what you're talking about here.


How appropriate.


Show me a statistic that shows that people with sexually transmitted diseases, who haven't had sexual intercourse, is not extremely rare compared to people with STI's who have had sexual intercourse, because what you're saying is completely counter-intuitive.


Your intuition is not my concern.


I couldn't give a shit about these 'definitions', they have nothing to do with the definitions I've presented anyway.


But they are equally valid. I couldn't give a shit about YOUR definition, because it is ridiculous and unrealistic. See how that works?


But nobody, ever, ever, ever means, when they call someone 'average', that they represent an exact, absolute mean or median. Even statisticians, who tend to describe average values, ones that fall within the inter-quartile range.

Right. So everyone is abnormal, because there IS no normal value.

Of course, if you still want to argue this bizarre 'average' idea.... my friend Nick is about 5'8", brown eyes, maybe 140lbs. What gender is Nick? What country is Nick from?

We're not talking about the arbitrariness of methods here, we're talking about the arbitrariness of words. All words are either completely arbitrary, or based off arbitrary words.

Being 'based on an arbitrary word' isn't arbitrary.

Is it true that if you lose your virginity on friday the 13th your penis falls off

Ignoring for a second concepts like 'oum'... what do you think onomatopoeia is?


The reason that buzz should describe a buzz (because it sounds like it) is STILL an arbitrary reason.


Your intuition is not my concern.


And you're assertions that you've failed to backup are no longer mine.


But they are equally valid. I couldn't give a shit about YOUR definition, because it is ridiculous and unrealistic. See how that works?


Even if that is the case, boring me with these definitions people used in the past is still completely irrelevant to that, so there's no reason to prattle on about it.


Right. So everyone is abnormal, because there IS no normal value.


No, there are many normal values, abnormal values are extreme values that represent a significant deviation from the absolute average, if you want to get really specific.


Of course, if you still want to argue this bizarre 'average' idea.... my friend Nick is about 5'8", brown eyes, maybe 140lbs. What gender is Nick? What country is Nick from?

Where are you going with this?

The reason that buzz should describe a buzz (because it sounds like it) is STILL an arbitrary reason.


No, it isn't.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


And you're assertions that you've failed to backup are no longer mine.


Forget where we started, did you?


Even if that is the case, boring me with these definitions people used in the past is still completely irrelevant to that, so there's no reason to prattle on about it.


Even if that is the case, labouring with your ridiculous and nonsensical defintions which you apparently feel should mean something to people other than yourself requires similar restraint.


No, there are many normal values, abnormal values are extreme values that represent a significant deviation from the absolute average, if you want to get really specific.


No - ab-normal values are values that are not normal. Kind of.. by definition.


Where are you going with this?

Don't you see?

You started off with some nonsense about what you can tell about people, based around these normative values.

Well, my friend is about 'normal' for height, weight, etc... and you can't even tell me what gender he/she is, much less where he/she is from.

Your arguments are made of fail.

All you can tell about a person that describes him/herself as a virgin, is that he/she believes that he/she is a virgin.

13.

Who said it was meaningful? It only really meant something when women were property or when people want to be proud of being prudes.
I mean, think of all the "technical virgins" in high schools who are taking it in the bum because they're saving themselves for marriage? Is this meaningful?

If a man or woman wants to save one specific act for marriage, I see no problem with that. Some aren't doing it out of a skewed morality view, they just want to save one thing for the person they truely love.

If a man or woman wants to save one specific act for marriage, I see no problem with that. Some aren't doing it out of a skewed morality view, they just want to save one thing for the person they truely love.

I would call that act "marriage".

I keep losing it every time I must pay my taxes.:(

I'm yet to lose it - but I think I may soon. :)

No, it isn't.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


There's no objective, scientific, logical or mathematical reason that SHOULD be the word. Only a pragmatic reason, and the parameters of what is, and what isn't pragmatic, are arbitrary.


Forget where we started, did you?


No, I remember perfectly. You dismissed what I said with some completely counter-intuitive assertion, where the burden of proof is overwhelmingly on you.


Even if that is the case, labouring with your ridiculous and nonsensical defintions which you apparently feel should mean something to people other than yourself requires similar restraint.

And yet you've failed to show how, or why any of these definitions are nonsensical.


No - ab-normal values are values that are not normal. Kind of.. by definition.


Did you actually read what I said? There could be 800 billion normal values, and 12 abnormal values. In order for the value to be NOT normal, it's usually defined as not meeting the parameters of a normal value, and thus not meeting the parameter of no significant deviation from the absolute average. You have to fucking live in some insane lsd trip, to actually think, that when anyone, ever, describes someone as normal, they actually mean they are specifically representing one single absolute mean or median value.


Don't you see?

You started off with some nonsense about what you can tell about people, based around these normative values.


I said that you can tell that someone, when you take other factors into account (like straight, in a developed country, not disabled etc...), if he is a virgin and over 30, is abnormal, and likely inept with women. You then went on about this insane disingenuous nonsense about how everyone is apparently abnormal, so that apparently doesn't tell us anything, you fail.


Well, my friend is about 'normal' for height, weight, etc... and you can't even tell me what gender he/she is, much less where he/she is from.


You've really, completely and utterly missed the point, haven't you?

I keep losing it every time I must pay my taxes.:(

OK, I'm not getting the joke.

I would call that act "marriage".

For some it could be. For others maybe it's vaginal intercourse or unprotected sex. Maybe it's anal sex or oral sex. It depends on the person.

Well, I'm curious. Why and where did it happen? I'm still a virgin. :(

I lost my virginity at the age of 18. It happened in a rather sordid manner. You see, I was in love with a girl when I was 14 and I never stopped loving her. She moved away when we were 15. She moved to Oregon and I lived in Pennsylvania. I saved myself for her. She said she was not ready. Then I visited her when I was 17 and going on 18. I was probably the horniest young man on Earth so I think it was a real sacrifice to wait that long. When the special moment never happened during that visit, I figured that I had been a fool and I pledged to have sex with the first girl that wanted to do it with me when I returned from my visit. It was all very depressing and the situation makes me sad whenever I think about it and I am now in my early 30s so I doubt I am ever going to be happy about the fact that I never made love to the girl I loved so much and still do.

Sorry to whine but I wanted everyone to know my own bias on the subject of virginity. I think that there is nothing special about virginity. I think that if two people love each other it is unnatural to not express that physically. If sex is disgusting to someone that is one thing, but if your virginity is something that you keep out of a perverted sense of pride all that you are really doing is hurting the people that love you whom you are rejecting.

OK, I'm not getting the joke.

He meant that the government "screws him" evertime he pays his taxes. "Screw" is American slang for two conepts "taking advantage of someone" and also "for having sex".

i keep losing it every time i must pay my taxes.:(

Har!

I lost my virginity at the age of 18. It happened in a rather sordid manner. You see, I was in love with a girl when I was 14 and I never stopped loving her. She moved away when we were 15. She moved to Oregon and I lived in Pennsylvania. I saved myself for her. She said she was not ready. Then I visited her when I was 17 and going on 18. I was probably the horniest young man on Earth so I think it was a real sacrifice to wait that long. When the special moment never happened during that visit, I figured that I had been a fool and I pledged to have sex with the first girl that wanted to do it with me when I returned from my visit. It was all very depressing and the situation makes me sad whenever I think about it and I am now in my early 30s so I doubt I am ever going to be happy about the fact that I never made love to the girl I loved so much and still do.

Sorry to whine but I wanted everyone to know my own bias on the subject of virginity. I think that there is nothing special about virginity. I think that if two people love each other it is unnatural to not express that physically. If sex is disgusting to someone tha tis one thing but if your virginity is something that you keep out of a perverted sense of pride all that you are really doing is hurting the people that love you who you are rejecting.

I have a differant take on it. Yeah similarly there was one of my ex girlfriends that I never had sex with, and yeah I still wonder what it would have been like, even now.

But sex, as enjoyable as it is, is only sex. So I think really that there is nowt special about non-virginity.

He meant that the government "screws him" evertime he pays his taxes. "Screw" is American slang for two conepts "taking advantage of someone" and also "for having sex".

Ah ok I am a bit slow tonight, I see what she was getting at.

For some it could be. For others maybe it's vaginal intercourse or unprotected sex. Maybe it's anal sex or oral sex. It depends on the person.

My first reaction to this was that it was a pretty wierd concept. Then I had a little more of an open minded moment and realized that I sort of am doing the same thing. I never wanted to reproduce outside of marriage as I view that practice to be wicked and sinful. Although reproduction might not be seen as a particular sex act, it really is.

OK, I'm not getting the joke.

Don't you feel like you lose your virginity and dignity every time you must pay taxes? I do. *nod*

Don't you feel like you lose your virginity and dignity every time you must pay taxes? I do. *nod*

My taxes are deducted from my pay by my company. :)

My taxes are deducted from my pay by my company. :)

A percentage of mine is deducted directly from my check, demo, when taxes are due, I have the bad luck of always having to pay something. That provokes an autimatic lose of my virginity. The government impales me with it's greedy penis and I can only scream "Yes master!" and pay, pay, pay!:(

Erm... if thats the way you put it... :p

a percentage of mine is deducted directly from my check, demo, when taxes are due, i have the bad luck of always having to pay something. That provokes an autimatic lose of my virginity. The government impales me with it's greedy penis and i can only scream "yes master!" and pay, pay, pay!:(

qft

(To the OP: I was 16.)

A percentage of mine is deducted directly from my check, demo, when taxes are due, I have the bad luck of always having to pay something. That provokes an autimatic lose of my virginity. The government impales me with it's greedy penis and I can only scream "Yes master!" and pay, pay, pay!:(

It would be fun to watch you scream "Yes master!" IMO.

A percentage of mine is deducted directly from my check, demo, when taxes are due, I have the bad luck of always having to pay something. That provokes an autimatic lose of my virginity. The government impales me with it's greedy penis and I can only scream "Yes master!" and pay, pay, pay!:(

You simultaneously made paying taxes and the female sex experience sound very very icky. It even made the male sex experience sound awful. I never imagined myself impaling anyone or thought of my manhood as greedy. Call me thin-skinned but this whole comment is the sort that makes me want to take a shower and cry a little. Great Job!

It would be fun to watch you scream "Yes master!" IMO.

Oh, I know you wish you were the Spanish government at tax time. ;)

Oh, I know you wish you were the Spanish government at tax time. ;)

I know that I do. :)

I know that I do. :)

Hentaida!:eek2:

Hentaida!:eek2:

*Is evil Tentacle monster* :D

Oh, I know you wish you were the Spanish government at tax time. ;)

I could certainly use the money.

*Is evil Tentacle monster* :D

For Chrissake! Mate! TMI!:eek:

For Chrissake! Mate! TMI!:eek:

hahahaha! :p

qft

(To the OP: I was 16.)

what does "qft" mean?

what does "qft" mean?

Quoted for Truth.

Thats interesting... that most people on here lost it at 18. Thats quite late where I come from most people do it around 17 or 16.

Very large number of people seem to have done it below 16 though :s

Don't you feel like you lose your virginity and dignity every time you must pay taxes? I do. *nod*

Well yes, and if we are defining being fucked up the arse as losing your virginity then yes yes I do feel like I lose my virginity every October.

I hate it when they come back a few years later after conducting an audit, and bend you over and say more, more I want more.

Well yes, and if we are defining being fucked up the arse as losing your virginity then yes yes I do feel like I lose my virginity every October.

I hate it when they come back a few years later after conducting an audit, and bend you over and say more, more I want more.

Yes, and you lose it more and die a little bit more inside...:(

Yes, and you lose it more and die a little bit more inside...:(

Leave it to the Spanish Inquisition to make you feel bad about having sex :(

(jks)

Leave it to the Spanish Inquisition to make you feel bad about having sex :(

(jks)

*cracks her inquisitorial whip*

:wink:

*cracks her inquisitorial whip*

:wink:

Yay! The inquisition! :hail::hail:

*cracks her inquisitorial whip*

:wink:

kinky, I never knew you were into that sort of thing.

kinky, I never knew you were into that sort of thing.

Me, into THAT sort of thig? What are talking about? I'm a pure and chaste woman. Know thyself.

:D

Me, into THAT sort of thig? What are talking about? I'm a pure and chaste woman. Know thyself.

:D

... No comment.

Me, into THAT sort of thing? What are talking about? I'm a pure and chaste woman. Know thyself.

:D

Yes... of course you are. :D

Yes... of course you are. :D

Of course. *whistles*

... No comment.

Yes, you keep your yapper shut, mister mister.

*Bows before the Inquisition*

Me, into THAT sort of thig? What are talking about? I'm a pure and chaste woman. Know thyself.

:D

Well one can always dream. :p

and when confronted by the fact that this implies that some gay guys are virgins despite being huge man-whores, they tend to think the better of it. No, they don't.

the ones i meet do, by and large. and the ones that don't are just refusing to think and get laughed at.

conceptual clarification matters

Well one can always dream. :p

Dream on, dream on... *sings*

And so the discussion descends to internet flirtation. *sigh*

And so the discussion descends to internet flirtation. *sigh*

Always!

And so the discussion descends to internet flirtation. *sigh*

Is there something wrong with that? :p

Is there something wrong with that? :p

I am just jealous that nobody is flirting with me. No, just kidding. Knock yourselves out. Flirt away I guess.

And so the discussion descends to internet flirtation. *sigh*

If Nanatsu is going to appear in a thread what else do you think is going to happen.

I am just jealous that nobody is flirting with me. No, just kidding. Knock yourselves out. Flirt away I guess.

It's harmless flirting, I assure you. Besides, I already have someone to love. :)

I am just jealous that nobody is flirting with me. No, just kidding. Knock yourselves out. Flirt away I guess.

Hey the names Blouman can I buy you a drink? :wink:

If Nanatsu is going to appear in a thread what else do you think is going to happen.

I do have things to say, you know. But I like to have fun too so...:D

I do have things to say, you know. But I like to have fun too so...:D

Well I'm always up for a bit of fun. :p

I was just reading some of the earlier posts and I was surprised that there are many differences of opinion on what a virgin is. I never really thought about that before. It is my opinion (and I never realized that others had different opinions on the matter) that virginity is the status of people who never had penis in the vagina style sex. I assume that all other forms of sex are things that someone could do and still be a virgin if they never had penis in the vagina style sex.

Hey the names Blouman can I buy you a drink? :wink:

Woohoo I have just been flirted with. *imagines that Blouman is a beautiful lady*

Woohoo I have just been flirted with. *imagines that Blouman is a beautiful lady*

Imagine all you want, the reality may be different but don't knock it till you try it mate. lol

Absolutely. The question should be, "when did you first have good sex?", that's something to celebrate.

I can give a date on that one. October 17, 2000

Only a woman would remember such a date! What is it with women and their memory of dates. I am lucky if I can remember my own birthday. My grandma who is old and cannot remember to take the key out of her front door when she unlocks it can remember every single person's birthday in our very extended family, their wedding and engagement anniversaries and the anniversaries of the deaths of their parents, spouses, etc! I am not kidding. Plus every woman I ever dated always knew the actual date of our first date. What the heck!?!?!?

I was just reading some of the earlier posts and I was surprised that there are many differences of opinion on what a virgin is. I never really thought about that before. It is my opinion (and I never realized that oters had different opinions on the matter) that virginity is the status of people who never had penis in the vagina style sex. I assume that all other forms of sex are things that someone could do and still be a virgin if they never had penis in the vagina style sex.

It seriously never occurred to you that sexually active gay people don't all think of themselves as virgins?

One would assume not, or one coud ask.

In other words, you are well aware that people use varying definitions of the word, and that you'll have to clarify with any given person who uses it.

It seriously never occurred to you that sexually active gay people don't all think of themselves as virgins?

I must confess that up until now I never really thought about virginity in the context of homosexuality. Although I have thought about separate types of virginity such as anal virginity and threesome virginity. So I guess that in a way gays have their own separate type of virginity but it is not the "big one" which is having sex for the first time in the style of penis in the vagina. Perhaps I could analogize it to holidays. Sure there are holidays when you get presents but Christmas (or Hannukah or whatever) is the big one.

I have yet to encounter a definition of virginity that wouldn't leave me as a virgin.

I might have one.

To me, sex is any physical activity between two or more people that could eventually result in an orgasm.

So, dry humping with the crotch could be considered sex. Foreplay is obviously sex. Really awesome kissing or backrubs could be sex.

By my definition, I lost my virginity when I was fifteen.

And so the discussion descends to internet flirtation. *sigh*

well, we'd already tried arguing about the nature of arbitrariness

In other words, you are well aware that people use varying definitions of the word, and that you'll have to clarify with any given person who uses it.

Yes.:D Although we all know when a girl says, 'I'm a virgin' she inveriably means 'I have not yet had virginal penitrative sex' obviously others definitions are valid.

Otherwise all gay men are virgins, and you know the ones I know are certianly not!

Still a virgin... and 26. It's more of a choice due to my religious convictions. I am looking for the right one, and I am waiting for marriage. It's my choice, my belief, and my life.

And this is probably the first time I've ever said this anywhere. I generally don't talk about it since, I figure that very few would understand my reasoning as to why.

I have the opposite religious conviction. I suffered a lot because I fell in love with a girl who may have thought this way. Why would God want me to suffer and be so sad? Do not get me wrong, my nonsexual sins definitely warrant that I suffer and if this was his will I certainly deserve it. However, if we can assume that God does not care about the small picture and instead cares about the big picture, why would he create love and the desire to make love to a beloved and yet want that couple to abstain from making love? He created volcanoes and they erupt. Why would he want us to fight against the nature that he authored and restrain the volcanoes of our passion? It sounds to me that this virgin worship that you have is a form of wicked idolatry and pride that the wicked element of your heart has deceived you into believing is a way for you to seek closeness with God. I am not saying this to be insulting, but to help you perhaps see an alternative explanation that may be leading you astray into wickedness and sin when you really think that this same behavior is keeping you on a righteous path.

Yes.:D Although we all know when a girl says, 'I'm a virgin' she inveriably means 'I have not yet had virginal penitrative sex' obviously others definitions are valid.

Invariably? I certainly know women who wouldn't say that after having anal, whether they'd yet had vaginal sex or not. I've known others who considered themselves non-virgins after oral.

Otherwise all gay men are virgins, and you know the ones I know are certianly not!

Yeah. I've known some pretty promiscuous gay men. I think they'd be rather surprised if someone suggested they were virgins.

Show me a statistic that shows that people with sexually transmitted diseases, who haven't had sexual intercourse, is not extremely rare compared to people with STI's who have had sexual intercourse, because what you're saying is completely counter-intuitive.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_sex#STD_risk

Do you want specific numbers for this? (Recall you stated earlier that oral sex did not count as sexual intercourse.)

I have the opposite religious conviction. I suffered a lot because I fell in love with a girl who may have thought this way. Why would God want me to suffer and be so sad? Do not get me wrong, my nonsexual sins definitely warrant that I suffer and if this was his will I certainly deserve it. However, if we can assume that God does not care about the small picture and instead cares about the big picture, why would he create love and the desire to make love to a beloved and yet want that couple to abstain from making love? He created volcanoes and they erupt. Why would he want us to fight against the nature that he authored and restrain the volcanoes of our passion? It sounds to me that this virgin worship that you have is a form of wicked idolatry and pride that the wicked element of your heart has deceived you into believing is a way for you to seek closeness with God. I am not saying this to be insulting, but to help you perhaps see an alternative explanation that may be leading you astray into wickedness and sin when you really think that this same behavior is keeping you on a righteous path.

Bwahahah fuckin' great! Go forth and multiply huh!:D

Well I'm always up for a bit of fun. :p

How Up is this up you´re talking about?:D

People on NS don't loose their virgnity (until the age of thrity-two). Those that do are the real people. They've got a life, and you won't find them here with us, in our dimmed-down, closet-sized rooms, illuminated by nothing but the bluish flickering of the computer screens.

How Up is this up you´re talking about?:D

Well when you're around straight up. :D

Well, I'm curious. Why and where did it happen? I'm still a virgin. :(

As am I. I could never hope to muster the enthusiasm a "relationship" would require, so I shall probably stay this way for the rest of my life.

Well when you're around straight up. :D

Word up, man.:D

MUCH older then nature ever intended us to, thanks in part to the backwardheadedness of american/western/english-speaking pseudo-christian culture.

As am I. I could never hope to muster the enthusiasm a "relationship" would require, so I shall probably stay this way for the rest of my life.

Meh you don't have a to have a relationship to have sex y'know!

Meh you don't have a to have a relationship to have sex y'know!

in principle yes, but other then renting it by the hour, kindly explain how.

in principle yes, but other then renting it by the hour, kindly explain how.

Well you know, you go down to the bar, have a few beers, get talking to somebody you fancy, and the rest well that's up to you huh.

in principle yes, but other then renting it by the hour, kindly explain how.Use a personals service like AdultFriendFinder.

Use a personals service like AdultFriendFinder.

By the month instead of by the hour!

Much more efficient.

Well you know, you go down to the bar, have a few beers, get talking to somebody you fancy, and the rest well that's up to you huh.

Intoxicate myself and another to sexuality? I think not.

Intoxicate myself and another to sexuality? I think not.

Meh your choice.

Thirteen and still a virgin.

Thirteen and still a virgin.

Bless you! And you better stay that way until you're truly ready.:wink:

Thirteen and still a virgin.

That is actually rather good... at that age, i'd be disturbed if you were not... :eek:

That is actually rather good... at that age, i'd be disturbed if you were not... :eek:

What, me not a virgin at thirteen? This kind of nerd?

What, me not a virgin at thirteen? This kind of nerd?

Well, if ya put it that way... :p

So I lost mine at 17, and as soon as I did, I could not for the life of me figure out why everyone thought it was such a huge deal, even though beforehand I thought it was a big deal.

Short story - It doesn't really matter that much. Having sex isn't and shouldn't be like a "goal"...It's just like...the next thing you do... Sort of like making out is the next thing to kissing. It's not like some huge event with fireworks and cake, it's just the next thing in a linear progression of how far you go with your girl/guy.

I can relate to this to some extent. I remember bein in high school and trying my damnedest to get laid because it seemed like even the lamest kids in the school were getting some, and then once it happened, I didn't quite see what all the rage is about. Without going into all the drama, the girl I lost mine to ended up not being the angel I thought she was. To this day, I wish I would've waited for someone that actually meant something to me instead of settling on the first girl to put out.

In conclusion, don't beat yourself up if you can't get laid, it's not everything. i mean, sex is AMAZING in the right circumstances, but don't go lookin for a one night stand just to try it out... unless of course that your thing, then go for it, more power to you.

Stop to consider that someone could lose their virginity at 21,22,23,24 etc?

That would be rather unfortunate xD

That would be rather unfortunate xD

*begins crying uncontrollably*

*begins crying uncontrollably*

Don't cry Gallo-kun. *huggles*

That would be rather unfortunate xD

Well, i'm 23 and still a Virgin - it don't bother me.

Besides, i'm not going to be for much longer... :D

*begins crying uncontrollably*
Well, i'm 23 and still a Virgin - it don't bother me.

Sorry, but you'd think that by your twenties you would have accidentally lost your virginity by then. I mean unless you're the elephant man, it's not terribly hard thanks to alcohol and modern morality.

Anyho, A month into being 16 for me. Once again, booze be praised.

Sorry, but you'd think that by your twenties you would have accidentally lost your virginity by then. I mean unless you're the elephant man, it's not terribly hard thanks to alcohol and modern morality.

I wasn't ready, simple as that. Besides, I would not let something like that occur by accident. When I lose my virginity, it will be in an act of love, not mindless hormones.

Well, i'm 23 and still a Virgin - it don't bother me.

Besides, I'm not going to be for much longer... :D

VK0 is getting laid *high fives all round*

Did that sound immature?

Sorry, but you'd think that by your twenties you would have accidentally lost your virginity by then. I mean unless you're the elephant man, it's not terribly hard thanks to alcohol and modern morality.

Anyho, A month into being 16 for me. Once again, booze be praised.

Well someone doesn't know to much. Just because you and your friends all got pissed before sleeping with one another doesn't mean that every body else does. I know a few people who are still virgins in their early twenties and they are not that ugly in fact one is quite attractive and yet still virgins.

VK0 is getting laid *high fives all round*

Did that sound immature?

Not at all. ;)

But i'm not obsessed, just looking forward to it. ;)

Sorry, but you'd think that by your twenties you would have accidentally lost your virginity by then. I mean unless you're the elephant man, it's not terribly hard thanks to alcohol and modern morality.

*cries harder*

*cries harder*

Take it from someone who knows - you're better off waiting until it's right. Running off and sleeping with everything seems clever, but it comes back to haunt you. ;)

I wasn't ready, simple as that. Besides, I would not let something like that occur by accident. When I lose my virginity, it will be in an act of love, not mindless hormones.

Well that's all very nice and romantic, but truth is I'd rather be good at it before I was with someone I loved. Because as much as we'd all like to stick by each other through thick and thin, sex is still a major part of most relationships.

Well someone doesn't know to much. Just because you and your friends all got pissed before sleeping with one another doesn't mean that every body else does. I know a few people who are still virgins in their early twenties and they are not that ugly in fact one is quite attractive and yet still virgins.

No, just 80% of the teenage West, I'd bet.

Take it from someone who knows - you're better off waiting until it's right. Running off and sleeping with everything seems clever, but it comes back to haunt you. ;)

Oh I know. I lost my virginity at 21. Yes, alcohol was involved.

Well that's all very nice and romantic, but truth is I'd rather be good at it before I was with someone I loved. Because as much as we'd all like to stick by each other through thick and thin, sex is still a major part of most relationships.

True, but my point still stands. I will learn myself in time. And if she loves me, she'll be patient with me. :)

No, just 80% of the teenage West, I'd bet.

What the hell is the teenage west?

Regardless even if it is 80% my point still stands.

*cries harder*

Quite sorry :P

you're better off waiting until it's right. Running off and sleeping with everything seems clever, but it comes back to haunt you. ;)

Never haunted me, and I've been relatively settled for three years since my old, teenage escapades. You can fool around with a few girls without labelling it as "Running off and sleeping with everything", also.

Take it from someone who knows

Did you not say you're a virgin, or have I misremembered?

Take it from someone who knows - you're better off waiting until it's right. Running off and sleeping with everything seems clever, but it comes back to haunt you. ;)

Hah strange I have never thought that way?

I wanted sex when I was quite young, I got it, and wanted moe, and umm I guess not a lot has changed since then. Ohh Ohh I know, I'm married now so it's lots of sex with one person.:D

Did you not say you're a virgin, or have I misremembered?

Someone who knows what being a virgin is like, dummy. :p

Someone who knows what being a virgin is like, dummy. :p

I'd say we all do, having all been there at *some* point.

What the hell is the teenage west?

Western teenagers :S

Regardless even if it is 80% my point still stands.

What point?

I'd say we all do, having all been there at *some* point.

But have you felt what it is like to be a 23 year old Virgin?

...I thought not. :p

But have you felt what it is like to be a 23 year old Virgin?

...I thought not. :p

No, I suppose not. Given I lost my virginity at 21.

No, I suppose not. Given I lost my virginity at 21.

Well then. ;)

No, I suppose not. Given I lost my virginity at 21.

And I at 17.:hail:

And I at 17.:hail:

Heh and I aint saying.

And I at 17.:hail:

Well it wasn't for a lack of effort. I'm just about as socially adept as a pig is trying to run across a frozen lake while dribbling an improperly inflated basketball with his snout.

And I at 17.:hail:

Well, I refuse to rush into anything when i'm not ready.

...Besides, I never even got a second look from girls until now... :(

Western teenagers :S

What point?

That you don't have to be ugly or dumb in today's advances with alcohol and mordern morality (that made me smile) to still be a virgin in your 20's. You claimed it was nigh impossible I said that this is untrue knowing a few virgins in their 20's who are not like the elephant man at all. Unless you think that 20% of the "teenage west" are ugly like the elephant man.

Sorry, but you'd think that by your twenties you would have accidentally lost your virginity by then.

Accidentally? What? Like you slip and fall and somehow end up having sex?

LOL

Well that's all very nice and romantic, but truth is I'd rather be good at it before I was with someone I loved. Because as much as we'd all like to stick by each other through thick and thin, sex is still a major part of most relationships.

Being good at sex doesn't really take a lot of practice.

What it does require is an awareness of your partner and a willingness and ability to experiment to find what feels good to both of you.

I haven't had many partners, but, from what I understand, it's different with every one.

I can say that, despite the fact that neither my husband nor I had many previous partners, we had great sex right from the start.