NationStates Jolt Archive

ohhh i dont know who that is.

I think this is one of those "Sarah Palin proves she has access to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalal_Talabani)" moments. Though I don't know how much faith one has in the government of Iraq if you say you have to work with the guy who doesn't really want Kurds to be part of Iraq....

Not that I'm against bringing Talabani to the table, I'm just saying it might be seen (by the Iraqis) as undermining their position.

interesting stat from CNN. Polls taken after the debate asking if Palin is qualified to be president, versus polls taken before the debate remained, essentially, unchanged.

That's interesting, and good to hear. I was worried her ability to hammer on talking-points might have swayed people.

watching was painful.......


btw, just cuz I haven't been paying attention is this "Joe six-pack" guy built or does he have a six pack of beer?
i think she is trying to appeal to the alcoholic vote.

The debate was in Saint Louis. We're in the same time zone.

Yeah, but if I'm in St. Louis right now it's still kind of '8pm' for me, regardless of where I physically am.

interesting stat from CNN. Polls taken after the debate asking if Palin is qualified to be president, versus polls taken before the debate remained, essentially, unchanged.

Only the Pundits would support her before.

Only the Pundits would support her now.

Hence, nothing would change, as there is nothing to change.

I think this is one of those "Sarah Palin proves she has access to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalal_Talabani)" moments. Though I don't know how much faith one has in the government of Iraq if you say you have to work with the guy who doesn't really want Kurds to be part of Iraq....

Not that I'm against bringing Talabani to the table, I'm just saying it might be seen (by the Iraqis) as undermining their position.
yeah it would have been more impressive if she had been asked about it instead of having to squeeze it in.

I'm listening...

first of all, do you know who miles o'brien (strangely enough, no relation, but also of CNN) is?

Maybe she is McCain's insurance policy. Have you noticed that the last couple Republicans had Vice-Presidents that we wanted in office even less? Who was the last Republican President to have a relatively safe Vice-President? Reagan and guess what? He got shot. I think the Republicans took an unexpected lesson home from that. :tongue:

watching was painful.......


btw, just cuz I haven't been paying attention is this "Joe six-pack" guy built or does he have a six pack of beer?

I always thought that it was a derogatory term used by people dismissing or being reductive about 'average working class Americans,' but then I didn't think 'Barracuda' was a compliment, either...

watching was painful.......


btw, just cuz I haven't been paying attention is this "Joe six-pack" guy built or does he have a six pack of beer?

Considering they're in St. Louis, that would be a six-pack of Budweiser, the only truly patriotic* beer.

*Belgian-owned

Maybe she is McCain's insurance policy. Have you noticed that the last couple Republicans had Vice-Presidents that we wanted in office even less? Who was the last Republican President to have a relatively safe Vice-President? Reagan and guess what? He got shot. I think the Republicans took an unexpected lesson home from that. :tongue:

Backwards logic seems to be upholding, then. The worse your running mate, the higher chance of winning you have.

first of all, do you know who miles o'brien (strangely enough, no relation, but also of CNN) is?

Nope.

The last few Vice-Presidents were kind of along for the ride. I remember how the comic strip Doonesbury portrayed President Bush the elder; as a voice coming from an invisible source.

Then there was Al Gore who could bore rocks to tears.

It took Dick Cheney to change the view of the importance of Vice-Presidents. Now we are witnessing his legacy.

first of all, do you know who miles o'brien (strangely enough, no relation, but also of CNN) is?

I do actually.

And a precautionary, pre-emptive Boot to the Head for anyone who even thinks about dragging Colm Meaney into this.

The last few Vice-Presidents were kind of along for the ride. I remember how the comic strip Doonesbury portrayed President Bush the elder; as a voice coming from an invisible source.

Then there was Al Gore who could bore rocks to tears.

It took Dick Cheney to change the view of the importance of Vice-Presidents. Now we are witnessing his legacy.
and, i think, maybe that palin wanted to continue his legacy....

or maybe she didnt understand the question

and, i think, maybe that palin wanted to continue his legacy....

or maybe she didnt understand the question
I'd bet on both, actually.

and, i think, maybe that palin wanted to continue his legacy....

or maybe she didnt understand the question

You know, reminding us that the Vice-President does more than just phot-ops at shopping mall grand openings might be the best thing Cheney ever did. It might just lose McCain an election. ;)

I do actually.

thank you! no one seems to know about him in general...

Seems to me that she controlled her message and scored many "folksy" points with her winks to the camera and her use of phrases like "doggone it". By the pure debate standard of answering questions substantively, she was a squirmy, scripted failure, but honestly, how many average US voters really judge a debate by that? "Joe Six-Pack" HEARD HIS NAME ON CAMERA IN THE DEBATE! She WINKED at him!

Sure, Joe Biden presented a real "warts-and-all" picture and was far more substantive, but I'm just not sure that matters. I'm sure the fact-checkers will be out in force parsing both candidates' remarks, most notably Biden's "McCain voted the same way as Obama" about a vote for which McCain was in Pennsylvania when it was held. In the interest of equal time for blunders, there's Palin citing Civil War general McClellan as doing well in Afghanistan.

Y'know what I got from this debate? A nap. I fell asleep somewhere between Palin's energy tapdance during the bankruptcy bill question and the question just before closing statements.

Nope.

w/e. He's another CNN person, good friends with Soledad, and his son is my best friend.

Eugene Robinson on Countdown just criticized Palin's debate as being to 'post-modern'...didn't see that coming...


I don't know who that is, by the way, I just copied his name down as they said it right as I started to write this, replacing what he was previously going to be called, "Some dude..."

Eugene Robinson on Countdown just criticized Palin's debate as being to 'post-modern'...didn't see that coming...


I don't know who that is, by the way, I just copied his name down as they said it right as I started to write this, replacing what he was previously going to be called, "Some dude..."
me either.

what does it mean?

me either.

what does it mean?
"post modern" is with "irony," "politically correct" and "logical fallacies" as abused ideas that people us when they're not sure what they're trying to say.

"post modern" is with "irony," "politically correct" and "logical fallacies" as abused ideas that people us when they're not sure what they're trying to say.
it probably means that she won by looking adorable.

Your point? I REALLY thought you would know, at VERY least, that a republic is a form of a democracy.

Of course the CIA factbook says we're a republic. We ARE a republic. But it's not "we're a republic, not a democracy" a republic is a kind of democracy.

Christ, someone in a 10th grade civics class understands that.

My tenth grade civics teacher said the same thing Wilgrove did.

Eugene Robinson on Countdown just criticized Palin's debate as being to 'post-modern'...didn't see that coming...

So, it was...without principle? Entirely dependent for its existence on its context? Full of giant bananas? I hope someone asked Mr. Robinson to define his terms.

So, what did I miss? Most of the articles are saying neither candidate did anything impressive, which makes me wonder what the point of it all was.

So, what did I miss? Most of the articles are saying neither candidate did anything impressive, which makes me wonder what the point of it all was.

It was a contest to see which VP can give their Presidential candidate the best Fellatio.

Eugene Robinson on Countdown just criticized Palin's debate as being to 'post-modern'...didn't see that coming...

So, it was...without principle? Entirely dependent for its existence on its context? Full of giant bananas? I hope someone asked Mr. Robinson to define his terms.

Nope...apparently it was about her winking and smirking or something...

It was a contest to see which VP can give their Presidential candidate the best Fellatio.



I wish I was McCain in that case. :p

Palin won the debate.

"You can't be serious" you say.

Oh, but I am, she won by NOT totally fucking up. She won by NOT sinking McCain's boat. She won by NOT having a Katie Couric moment. That's all she had to do and she did remarkably well at doing her job and carrying out her assignment of putting on a good show.

If she had pulled a Couric, it would have been over for her and McCain for sure, nothing would have salvaged them. Instead, they are still very much alive thanks to her performance. McCain could sink his own ship in the debates with Obama still to come and vice-versa, but Palin will walk out a "hero" if she just keeps, more or less, quiet from now until the election is over.

So, what did I miss? Most of the articles are saying neither candidate did anything impressive, which makes me wonder what the point of it all was.

This might be the trend alas, I think debates are being seen more as 'do not fuck-up' affairs than 'be memorable'.

Having said that, the simple fact remains that Sarah Palin mostly got across the fact that she is in no way prepared for presidency, she's hardly prepared for vice-presidency, even by the standards of Dan Quayle.

She talks similar to how I sometimes write, lots of words constructed in what seem to be sentences but entirely devoid of actual content.

I wish I was McCain in that case. :p

Oh....you're just setting me up to say something creepy, aren't you? ;)

I just reheard one of Palin's remarks, replayed by Chris Matthews, the one about expanding the VP's power, and the words I'd missed the first time around were at the end, where she says she wants to see the VP get more power to work with the Congress and "make sure we're all supporting the president's views."

WHAT. THE. FUCK???

What, she wants to be the president's enforcer to keep the Congress in line now? What kind of scumbags are coaching her?

It is so vital that McCain NOT win this election. So seriously vital.

Palin won the debate.

"You can't be serious" you say.

Oh, but I am, she won by NOT totally fucking up. She won by NOT sinking McCain's boat. She won by NOT having a Katie Couric moment. That's all she had to do and she did remarkably well at doing her job and carrying out her assignment of putting on a good show.

If she had pulled a Couric, it would have been over for her and McCain for sure, nothing would have salvaged them. Instead, they are still very much alive thanks to her performance. McCain could sink his own ship in the debates with Obama still to come and vice-versa, but Palin will walk out a "hero" if she just keeps, more or less, quiet from now until the election is over.


Umm. Not only did she lose but Biden kicked her ass without even trying. I am sorry but McCain lost this election a while ago.

Oh....you're just setting me up to say something creepy, aren't you? ;)



Nah, just broadcasting my wetdreams. ;)

Umm. Not only did she lose but Biden kicked her ass without even trying. I am sorry but McCain lost this election a while ago.

No, I think he's right. The standard for her was set so low that, essentially, all she had to do was not say something racist and she would have succeeded.

No, I think he's right. The standard for her was set so low that, essentially, all she had to do was not say something racist and she would have succeeded.
Early viewer responses say otherwise, as most viewer polls are giving the win to Biden. But I think we should wait 12 hours to see how the numbers develop.

Umm. Not only did she lose but Biden kicked her ass without even trying. I am sorry but McCain lost this election a while ago.
We haven't had an election yet, we don't know who won the election yet, its not over yet and wouldn't count McCain out at all.

On substance, yeah, Biden won. But I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about making a good impression on average Joe voter who only pays attention to how a candidate looks and whether they sound intelligent w/o resorting to actual analysis of what was said. In the Couric interview, she sounded stupid. Tonight, she didn't.

No, I think he's right. The standard for her was set so low that, essentially, all she had to do was not say something racist and she would have succeeded.

It might, just might, be that people recognized the completely obvious artificial bar lowering and enough people called it out before hand that the bar may have raised back up a little bit.

Early viewer responses say otherwise, as most viewer polls are giving the win to Biden. But I think we should wait 12 hours to see how the numbers develop.

the numbers suggest that, post debate, faith in Palin to do the job confidently did not raise beyond the margin of error.

Palin won the debate.

"You can't be serious" you say.

Oh, but I am, she won by NOT totally fucking up. She won by NOT sinking McCain's boat. She won by NOT having a Katie Couric moment. That's all she had to do and she did remarkably well at doing her job and carrying out her assignment of putting on a good show.

If she had pulled a Couric, it would have been over for her and McCain for sure, nothing would have salvaged them. Instead, they are still very much alive thanks to her performance. McCain could sink his own ship in the debates with Obama still to come and vice-versa, but Palin will walk out a "hero" if she just keeps, more or less, quiet from now until the election is over.

I think you have a point, but I'm not sure I'd go that far. I agree that she far exceeded her Katie Couric performances, but I think she also had to make the case that she would be ready to be President should the need arise. Did she do that? I have no idea, as I can't stand her. I'm interested to see what the polls show in the next few days -- whether she actually scored or just hit a triple.

the numbers suggest that, post debate, faith in Palin to do the job confidently did not raise beyond the margin of error.
I'm inclined to agree with Rachel Maddow, who said this debate will not affect how voters view the candidates much at all.

I think you have a point, but I'm not sure I'd go that far. I agree that she far exceeded her Katie Couric performances, but I think she also had to make the case that she would be ready to be President should the need arise. Did she do that?

Exactly, there's a difference between the sentiment that 'she did better than expected' and 'she's my choice for VP'.

I think that as much as she hit the first, she simply did not make a strong case for the second.

I think Sarkhaan pointed out that he'd like to have got a better idea of who she is, I don't think the debate settled that.

I'd see this as a continuing negative for John McCain.

I think you have a point, but I'm not sure I'd go that far. I agree that she far exceeded her Katie Couric performances, but I think she also had to make the case that she would be ready to be President should the need arise. Did she do that? I have no idea, as I can't stand her. I'm interested to see what the polls show in the next few days -- whether she actually scored or just hit a triple.I can accept that - I'm not so sure she pulled off a "I'd be a good president too" point, and that does count for alot. But you understand the point of my post too.

We haven't had an election yet, we don't know who won the election yet, its not over yet and wouldn't count McCain out at all.

On substance, yeah, Biden won. But I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about making a good impression on average Joe voter who only pays attention to how a candidate looks and whether they sound intelligent w/o resorting to actual analysis of what was said. In the Couric interview, she sounded stupid. Tonight, she didn't.



You really believe he stands a chance? Do any polls show McCain even has a pulse left?


Substance, intellgence, Maturity he pretty much won across the board. Maybe she didn't fuck up, but she didn't IMO come across better than Biden did.

I need to correct myself. One voter has definitely changed his view of the candidates. Pat Buchanan liked Palin to start with, but apparently, now he is hopelessly in love. Geez-gods, the way he is carrying on about how amazingly wonderful she is, you'd think her panties were full of peanut butter and her bra made out of sliced bread -- oh, and the stuff she picks out of the corner of her eye in the morning cures cancer, that's how terrific he apparently thinks she is based on this debate. Creepy old dude with a schoolboy crush.

You really believe he stands a chance? Do any polls show McCain even has a pulse left?


Substance, intellgence, Maturity he pretty much won across the board. Maybe she didn't fuck up, but she didn't IMO come across better than Biden did.Its not over until its over. An average of an 8 point lead in the polls is not enough of a margin to declare a victory with. All it would take is a single major fuck up by Obama's camp to completely change things, and such fuck ups have happened to more than one candidate over the years.

No, I see the race as still way too close and too far removed from the actual election to call yet.

Let's see how folksy she can be...

You betcha.

I can't believe nobody got this one

We can start putting more troops in Afghanistan as we also work with our NATO allies who are there strengthening us and we need to grow our military. We cannot afford to lose against al Qaeda and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us, but we're getting closer and closer to victory.

I can't believe that her handlers didn't make sure she didn't get the Sunni and Shia mixed up after McCain got busted on for that.

So, what did I miss? Most of the articles are saying neither candidate did anything impressive, which makes me wonder what the point of it all was.

You and me both. It was folksy versus substance, and while neither won, I think I can guess which of those two things are most cherished by a country that voluntarily subjected itself to eight years of Bush Light.

Palin won the debate.

"You can't be serious" you say.

Oh, but I am, she won by NOT totally fucking up. She won by NOT sinking McCain's boat. She won by NOT having a Katie Couric moment. That's all she had to do and she did remarkably well at doing her job and carrying out her assignment of putting on a good show.

If she had pulled a Couric, it would have been over for her and McCain for sure, nothing would have salvaged them. Instead, they are still very much alive thanks to her performance. McCain could sink his own ship in the debates with Obama still to come and vice-versa, but Palin will walk out a "hero" if she just keeps, more or less, quiet from now until the election is over.

I have to agree with this, as much as it stinks. She won by not losing.

Umm. Not only did she lose but Biden kicked her ass without even trying. I am sorry but McCain lost this election a while ago.

You're not really serious, are you? That was closer to a dead heat, with Biden edging it out by being better at substance and not needing to tapdance as much as Palin did. I know you're hoping for an Obama win, as am I, but sometimes you have to make a reality check.

I need to correct myself. One voter has definitely changed his view of the candidates. Pat Buchanan liked Palin to start with, but apparently, now he is hopelessly in love. Geez-gods, the way he is carrying on about how amazingly wonderful she is, you'd think her panties were full of peanut butter and her bra made out of sliced bread -- oh, and the stuff she picks out of the corner of her eye in the morning cures cancer, that's how terrific he apparently thinks she is based on this debate. Creepy old dude with a schoolboy crush.

Agreed! The only worse example is Rush, who could be heard practically fapping during her introduction in Dayton in late August.

You betcha.

Doggone *wink*

I can't believe nobody got this one



I can't believe that her handlers didn't make sure she didn't get the Sunni and Shia mixed up after McCain got busted on for that.


..........................Gaffe? Or pointing at the minority?

Wow, Men and women line went off the chart at the top for Palin.

It's bound to happen time to time. Did you see what happened every time she mentioned "Maverick?" People aren't buying that shit anymore.

Let's factcheck folks.

WASHINGTON - Republican Sarah Palin criticized a version of a Barack Obama health care plan that doesn't exist and Democrat Joe Biden clung to a misleading charge about Republicans and big oil when the two clashed in the vice presidential debate Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Some examples of facts cast adrift in the debate:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."

THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

___

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

___

PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."

THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.

___

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

___

PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control. BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

___

PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

___

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

___

PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

___

PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote.

___

PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."

THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

___

Associated Press writers Tom Raum, Steve Quinn, Jim Kuhnhenn, Lolita Baldor and Matthew Lee contributed to this report.

I can't believe nobody got this one

I can't believe that her handlers didn't make sure she didn't get the Sunni and Shia mixed up after McCain got busted on for that.

Was that a genuine conflation or was it Al Qaeda AND Shi'a extremists as two separate groups who need military attention?

Almost certainly a gaffe.

The other one that seems to have been overlooked was attributing John Winthrop's "the shining city on a hill" to Reagan.

Here's why Biden won. Do polls suggest that the people thought she did better than expected? Yes, but the same polls say the same about Biden, and roughly in the same proportion. Yes, people overall may have a higher opinion of Palin, but they ALSO have a higher opinion of Biden.

Morever, it seems that people think Biden, over Palin (by a small margin) would better represent their interests

So while Palin went from "totally incompetant" to "may be competant in certain circumstances", Biden went from "dull washington insider with the personality of John Kerry" to "articulate, intelligent, compassionate person who could do a good job"

it would be one thing if Palin went from horrible to mediocre and Biden stayed the same, but as Palin went from horrible to mediocre, Biden went from mediocre to good.

You're not really serious, are you? That was closer to a dead heat, with Biden edging it out by being better at substance and not needing to tapdance as much as Palin did. I know you're hoping for an Obama win, as am I, but sometimes you have to make a reality check.


Pardon? Nobody sees everything the same and from here I saw Biden winning easily and Palin making me a tad sick. But I don't mistake me, I don't like Obama at all, I tend to vote republican and backed McCain..I am just acceptting the fact McCain is running a shitty campain and Palin was the wrong choice.

Here's why Biden won. Do polls suggest that the people thought she did better than expected? Yes, but the same polls say the same about Biden, and roughly in the same proportion. Yes, people overall may have a higher opinion of Palin, but they ALSO have a higher opinion of Biden.

Morever, it seems that people think Biden, over Palin (by a small margin) would better represent their interests

So while Palin went from "totally incompetant" to "may be competant in certain circumstances", Biden went from "dull washington insider with the personality of John Kerry" to "articulate, intelligent, compassionate person who could do a good job"

it would be one thing if Palin went from horrible to mediocre and Biden stayed the same, but as Palin went from horrible to mediocre, Biden went from mediocre to good.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This.

Here's why Biden won. Do polls suggest that the people thought she did better than expected? Yes, but the same polls say the same about Biden, and roughly in the same proportion. Yes, people overall may have a higher opinion of Palin, but they ALSO have a higher opinion of Biden.

Morever, it seems that people think Biden, over Palin (by a small margin) would better represent their interests

So while Palin went from "totally incompetent" to "may be competent in certain circumstances", Biden went from "dull washington insider with the personality of John Kerry" to "articulate, intelligent, compassionate person who could do a good job"

it would be one thing if Palin went from horrible to mediocre and Biden stayed the same, but as Palin went from horrible to mediocre, Biden went from mediocre to good.

Convincingly put. Agreed.

Here's why Biden won. Do polls suggest that the people thought she did better than expected? Yes, but the same polls say the same about Biden, and roughly in the same proportion. Yes, people overall may have a higher opinion of Palin, but they ALSO have a higher opinion of Biden.

Morever, it seems that people think Biden, over Palin (by a small margin) would better represent their interests

So while Palin went from "totally incompetant" to "may be competant in certain circumstances", Biden went from "dull washington insider with the personality of John Kerry" to "articulate, intelligent, compassionate person who could do a good job"

it would be one thing if Palin went from horrible to mediocre and Biden stayed the same, but as Palin went from horrible to mediocre, Biden went from mediocre to good.

In essence, you're saying it was a tie, and in cases of a tie, the victor is usually the one who is best served by maintaining the status quo. Neither Biden nor Palin won the debate in the traditional sense, but because neither won, Biden ends up the winner.

Palin is actually making sense....

At some point she does. She also doesn't know how to BS without making it obvious. How many questions can she answer by talking about energy? "So, what would you do about the credit crisis.?" "Well, when I was mayor and governor in Alaska... energy, oil, drill baby drill..." On another note, how do you feel about the Iraq war?" "Well, we are building a pipeline..." You betcha.

What does she think the 700 billion dollar bailout will do to the taxes on the middle class and what we'll be paying longterm?

"Well, we are drilling all that oil" You betcha.

Pallin keeps stuttering. And, it may just be my bias, but it just SOUNDS like she's lying. Maybe its her attempts at being folksy with the 'ask a soccer mom' talk.

That's because she is lying. Shit, she even said the word naivety the exact same way McCain did. They have her trained right down to speech patterns.

Not everyone has a health care plan through their employer Biden....

No, but that's why Barack Obama's plan is superior. He helps "all" people to afford healthcare, including businesses, and private insurances. You ran into a buzzsaw on that one.

Didn't Palin against the Bridge to no-where?

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed7/idUSN3125537020080901

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-08-31-palin-bridge_N.htm

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx

http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511471.html

There's Hertz, and there's "not exactly."

In essence, you're saying it was a tie, and in cases of a tie, the victor is usually the one who is best served by maintaining the status quo. Neither Biden nor Palin won the debate in the traditional sense, but because neither won, Biden ends up the winner.

Oh, no, Biden won. Unarguably Biden won by a country mile. I'm saying the perception shift was roughly equal for both of them. That doesn't mean they tied. The better you're perceived, the harder it is to raise that reputation. Someone viewed as an incompetent, like Palin, doesn't need to do much to raise opinion of her. But someone viewed as passable needs to do more than passable to affect a positive change in opinion.

Someone viewed as an incompetent like palin needs only be vaguely competent in order to be seen as better. Someone who is seen as alright, like Biden, actually has to put on a strong show to change how people perceive him, for the better.

They didn't tie by any stretch of the meaning of the word. Palin did "not incompetently". Biden did well. Palin's "not incompetent" was perhaps enough to change opinion of her from "failure" to "mediocre". Biden's good performance was enough to shift opinion of him from "ok" to "good".

The upward shift in perception between them was a tie, but that's only because when you're already perceived as "OK" it actually takes a strong performance to increase that perspective. When you're viewed as an idiot, as long as you don't drool on yourself, people will think better of you.

But tie? No, not even close.

Does Biden do anything else but throw around big numbers and repeat the names of Barack Obama and John McCain?

You mean specifics and not glittering generalities? I don't think he knows how to BS as well I suppose.

Palin was good.

Biden was better.

Worse for Palin, perhaps - he was better at her strong suits. She plucked and plucked at the appeal for emotion, all the way through - but Biden had a few seconds of being human, being vulnerable - and it may well have cost Palin the night.

Have I missed it, or did nobody yet comment on the fact that Palin's hair was down around her shoulders, and that her outfit was both slimming and shapely. It was a much softer image than the B-52's type bun and the horrid horizontal striped jacket she wore to several events. Clearly, the RNC hired a team of stylists, or perhaps those Queer Eye guys.

Whether she won or lost on words, she clearly won the 'adorable' vote, and maybe even the GILF vote. The only thing she left out was the neat little 'firing her fingers like guns in the air - Pew pew Pew!' bit that Tina Fey captured (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/) so well.

From CNN:

The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. said 51 percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job.

But respondents said the folksy Palin was more likable, scoring 54 percent to Biden's 36 percent. Seventy percent said Biden was more of a typical politician.

Both candidates exceeded expectations -- 84 percent of the people polled said Palin did a better job than they expected, while 64 percent said Biden also exceeded expectations.

How Palin would perform had been a major issue for the Alaska governor, who had some well-publicized fumbles during interviews with CBS' Katie Couric leading up to the debate.

Respondents thought Biden was better at expressing his views, giving him 52 percent to Palin's 36 percent.

On the question of the candidates' qualifications to assume the presidency, 87 percent of those polled said Biden is qualified and 42 percent said Palin is qualified.

The fact that Palin, while running with a 72 year old, repeated cancer survivor, has managed to convince only 40% of americans that she's capable of being president is HUGELY damaging.

Likewise a 15% difference between who won, even in this partisan environment, is huge win for Biden. Even though Palin is more "likeable", the past 8 years has seem to instilled in America the idea that even though a candidate might be someone you want a beer with, that's not something you should vote someone into high office for.

Although Biden looks more like an unlikeable, stuffy politician, the tide seems to suggest that, in these troubled times, a stuffy guy with actual decades of experience is the better choice than a nice woman who doesn't know how to do the job she's trying to get.

Yes, let us tax incomes more! *ugh*

No, let's tax people making 1 million or more a bit more. Let's look at it this way. A family makes 55k and they're going to see their pre-tax income go down $2500. What do you think they are going to do with that money? They don't have enough to save it all, they have to spend it on things like gas, clothes, groceries, notebooks, etc. They spend money at Walmart, they spend it on groceries, that helps the economy too. Giving money to families who will spend it helps to fund businesses. Businesses don't have people to spend money, their shit stays on the shelf. It's great if they have more money to increase inventories. But who is going to buy that additional product? You think allowing large corporations the ability to create more minimum wage jobs is going to help that much?

Palin/McCain talk about "increasing productivity..." Productivity is an all time MFing high. One person does the job of three now a days. We work longer hours and overtime pay is non-existent. Corporations cut jobs to increase profits. That's business. Hell, I run a business and that's how things work. If I had more $ coming in because people had it to spend I could hire a few more workers. Hell, I might even be able to give the people who currently work for me a raise. I can't do that if the people who are coming into my business don't have money to spend. I get all types of people, but most of them are from that "middle class."

You can also point out that the "84 percent of the people polled said Palin did a better job than they expected" is damning with faint praise.
It could well be interpreted that people tuned expecting to watch a train wreck but instead only got to see someone fall off their bike and down a flight of stairs.
Thus, better than they expected!

From CNN:



The fact that Palin, while running with a 72 year old, repeated cancer survivor, has managed to convince only 40% of americans that she's capable of being president is HUGELY damaging.

Likewise a 15% difference between who won, even in this partisan environment, is huge win for Biden. Even though Palin is more "likeable", the past 8 years has seem to instilled in America the idea that even though a candidate might be someone you want a beer with, that's not something you should vote someone into high office for.

Although Biden looks more like an unlikeable, stuffy politician, the tide seems to suggest that, in these troubled times, a stuffy guy with actual decades of experience is the better choice than a nice woman who doesn't know how to do the job she's trying to get.



Thats why McCain can't win, if they don't convince people Palin is capable he is done. At this point I don't think she can do it.

Have I missed it, or did nobody yet comment on the fact that Palin's hair was down around her shoulders, and that her outfit was both slimming and shapely. It was a much softer image than the B-52's type bun and the horrid horizontal striped jacket she wore to several events. Clearly, the RNC hired a team of stylists, or perhaps those Queer Eye guys.

Whether she won or lost on words, she clearly won the 'adorable' vote, and maybe even the GILF vote. The only thing she left out was the neat little 'firing her fingers like guns in the air - Pew pew Pew!' bit that Tina Fey captured (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/) so well.

To put it crudely, I'd shag her but I'd not vote for her.

John McCain knows how to win a war; he fought in Vietnam!

(Apologies if someone already made this joke in here. It was new a few hours ago.)

I don't know about you guys, but I think Gwen Ifill won this debate.

Gwen was totally professional and asked good questions. Michelle Malkin can go suck eggs with the other whiners.

Nobody is interested in specifics and throwing big numbers in every sentence is not catchy and obfuscates the point.

? Sarcasm?

I think Biden would have won by more if Jim Lehrer had been moderating. During the Obama/McCain debate, he seemed to press for actual answers to the questions without letting them get away with dodging as much as they usually do.

McCain knows how to win a war based on what, the fact that he won the last one he was in?

pwned

It'll probably be called a draw by the pundits...

Of course the pundits will call it a draw...they're being paid to keep the race as "close" as possible.

And a precautionary, pre-emptive Boot to the Head for anyone who even thinks about dragging Colm Meaney into this.

I lol'ed

That's because she is lying. Shit, she even said the word naivety the exact same way McCain did. They have her trained right down to speech patterns.

Naiveté was pronounced correctly, from what I heard tonight (na-iv-TE, using Latin vowels). I was more concerned about her Bush-like use of "nuke-you-lurr".

From CNN:

The fact that Palin, while running with a 72 year old, repeated cancer survivor, has managed to convince only 40% of americans that she's capable of being president is HUGELY damaging.

Likewise a 15% difference between who won, even in this partisan environment, is huge win for Biden. Even though Palin is more "likeable", the past 8 years has seem to instilled in America the idea that even though a candidate might be someone you want a beer with, that's not something you should vote someone into high office for.

Although Biden looks more like an unlikeable, stuffy politician, the tide seems to suggest that, in these troubled times, a stuffy guy with actual decades of experience is the better choice than a nice woman who doesn't know how to do the job she's trying to get.

"Only" 40%? I think that number is appallingly large.

Hey, all I've got to say is that McCain tapped Palin.

Hey, all I've got to say is that McCain tapped Palin.

To be crude as well. I'd like to get Sarah drunk and go looking for moose in the dark. As far as letting her near the WH, no Fing way.

Naiveté was pronounced correctly, from what I heard tonight (na-iv-TE, using Latin vowels). I was more concerned about her Bush-like use of "nuke-you-lurr".

What about her taking Ahmedinejad at face value and actually believing him to be a dangerous and maniacal figure with real power and an ambition to "bring a Second Holocaust to Israel" instead of the Persian Hugo Chavez with the Supreme Council's hand up his puppet ass that anyone with even rudimentary cognitive skills can see?

What about her taking Ahmedinejad at face value and actually believing him to be a dangerous and maniacal figure with real power and an ambition to "bring a Second Holocaust to Israel" instead of the Persian Hugo Chavez with the Supreme Council's hand up his puppet ass that anyone with even rudimentary cognitive skills can see?

Agreed, but which of those two portrayals is the simplest and most directly effective with the most people?

I think it says something about Palin that, 6 hours after the debate, the two bits I remember most clearly from Palin are the "they hate our freedoms" moment, and the outright dismissal of the question when she wanted to talk about energy.

Biden, on the other hand, managed to make his emotional moment stick, and his "we've gotta pull ourselves up together" bit.

She had a piss poor debate, he unfortunately had to delve into the realms of folksyness. But on the whole, he was articulate and thoughtful and had well reasoned answers, she had soundbites.

I think I can get used to reading these threads instead of watching the debates.

Some random points:

Nucular? Seriously?

I just reheard one of Palin's remarks, replayed by Chris Matthews, the one about expanding the VP's power, and the words I'd missed the first time around were at the end, where she says she wants to see the VP get more power to work with the Congress and "make sure we're all supporting the president's views."

WHAT. THE. FUCK???

What, she wants to be the president's enforcer to keep the Congress in line now? What kind of scumbags are coaching her?

It is so vital that McCain NOT win this election. So seriously vital.
Wow.

Oh, no, Biden won. Unarguably Biden won by a country mile. I'm saying the perception shift was roughly equal for both of them. That doesn't mean they tied. The better you're perceived, the harder it is to raise that reputation. Someone viewed as an incompetent, like Palin, doesn't need to do much to raise opinion of her. But someone viewed as passable needs to do more than passable to affect a positive change in opinion.

Someone viewed as an incompetent like palin needs only be vaguely competent in order to be seen as better. Someone who is seen as alright, like Biden, actually has to put on a strong show to change how people perceive him, for the better.

They didn't tie by any stretch of the meaning of the word. Palin did "not incompetently". Biden did well. Palin's "not incompetent" was perhaps enough to change opinion of her from "failure" to "mediocre". Biden's good performance was enough to shift opinion of him from "ok" to "good".

The upward shift in perception between them was a tie, but that's only because when you're already perceived as "OK" it actually takes a strong performance to increase that perspective. When you're viewed as an idiot, as long as you don't drool on yourself, people will think better of you.

But tie? No, not even close.
Thank you! Was driving me crazy to read through the thread where, from what I could gather from the comments, Biden CLEARLY won - and then see people go from "Bah, he clearly won, but of course the bar was set so low for her people are gonna say it was totally a draw" to "It was totally a draw". WTF? Don't do that, guys. That's just fucking sad.

"Only" 40%? I think that number is appallingly large.
Also thank you! My thoughts exactly. The mind is boggled.

I think it says something about Palin that, 6 hours after the debate, the two bits I remember most clearly from Palin are the "they hate our freedoms" moment, and the outright dismissal of the question when she wanted to talk about energy.

Biden, on the other hand, managed to make his emotional moment stick, and his "we've gotta pull ourselves up together" bit.

She had a piss poor debate, he unfortunately had to delve into the realms of folksyness. But on the whole, he was articulate and thoughtful and had well reasoned answers, she had soundbites.

Soundbites are what work. 'Winning' the debate was always secondary to the soundbites. Thankfully Biden's were at least as good as hers.

Here's why Biden won. Do polls suggest that the people thought she did better than expected? Yes, but the same polls say the same about Biden, and roughly in the same proportion. Yes, people overall may have a higher opinion of Palin, but they ALSO have a higher opinion of Biden.

Morever, it seems that people think Biden, over Palin (by a small margin) would better represent their interests

So while Palin went from "totally incompetant" to "may be competant in certain circumstances", Biden went from "dull washington insider with the personality of John Kerry" to "articulate, intelligent, compassionate person who could do a good job"

it would be one thing if Palin went from horrible to mediocre and Biden stayed the same, but as Palin went from horrible to mediocre, Biden went from mediocre to good.
Very true. I noticed that when looking over the reaction numbers before going to bed. Biden has such a problematical personality that I found the upward perception shift for him to be more significant than for Palin.

The sense I got was that people might hate Palin less now (not me, but some) but they are more willing to settle on saying she's not competent for the job.

On the other hand, people seem to feel more comfortable with the idea of Biden now than they did before.

Have I missed it, or did nobody yet comment on the fact that Palin's hair was down around her shoulders, and that her outfit was both slimming and shapely. It was a much softer image than the B-52's type bun and the horrid horizontal striped jacket she wore to several events. Clearly, the RNC hired a team of stylists, or perhaps those Queer Eye guys.

Whether she won or lost on words, she clearly won the 'adorable' vote, and maybe even the GILF vote. The only thing she left out was the neat little 'firing her fingers like guns in the air - Pew pew Pew!' bit that Tina Fey captured (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/) so well.
I noticed the suit the minute she stepped onto the stage. Mentioned it in my first post. No more of those lovely ombre prison stripes, eh?

I think I can get used to reading these threads instead of watching the debates.

Some random points:

Nucular? Seriously?
Obviously the McCain camp has decided to promote Palin as the next GWB. I fully expect her to say, "misunderestimated" in the near future.

re:40% approval Also thank you! My thoughts exactly. The mind is boggled.
with 35% of voters identifying themselves as Republican, 35% as Democrat and 30% as Independent, 40% can be broken down in such a way (figures just by way of example)
80% approval by registered republicans = 28%
10% approval by registered dems = 3.5%
28% approval by indies = 8.5%
total is 40%

Using the above figures mean that her approval amongst the other 65% (~2/3) of the voters is only 18%. Which is much more understandable.

As for voter perception as to whether she'd be able to step in as President, should the eventuality ever occur, I refer you to my post on the other thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14064071&postcount=534
Just a 25% approval rating there!

This election is looking more and more like it's going to be won or lost not on who's heading the ticket but on the choice for vp.
And in that respect, it would appear America is feeling more and more unsettled at McCain's choice.
tg.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/navarrette.debate/index.html

A commentary showing how completely out at sea the commentator is, for those who don't want to read the whole thing, here's some choice excerpts:


Who won last night's vice presidential debate? The answer depends on which ticket you support. If you like Obama-Biden, then Joe Biden won.

If you prefer McCain-Palin, Sarah Palin did. That's how you can tell a tie. That's what this was. And since Biden was supposed to destroy Palin, and didn't even come close, this was a good night for the Republican. That's right, it wasn't a total train wreck, so that's a win!

In the middle of last week, McCain won leadership accolades with his march to Capitol Hill to try to alleviate the economic crisis. He did? Huh, I remember most people mentioning that McCain had nothing to do with the economic sub-committee and mention that by showing up he derailed a bill that already had broad agreement.

At one annoying moment, the Democrat even instructed the moderator, PBS' Gwen Ifill, that Palin hadn't answered a question. He could have said that directly to Palin, but, in a McCainesque moment, he ignored her. The Democrat, how dare he mention that Palin dodged a question!

Biden caught himself later when Palin -- in her best line -- informed him and Ifill that she was going to speak straight to the American people even if it meant not answering Ifill Yay Palin, don't answer questions, just read your lines!

Later, when I saw the debate on television, I was even more impressed. Palin loves the camera, and it loves her back. This is her medium, and debates are her forum. She's a natural communicator, cut of the same cloth as Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton. Wait, what?!


As the debate wrapped up, I was pulling into a parking lot for an evening speech to a local Democratic club. The person who greeted me shook his head and suggested that Palin had faked-out her critics by weaving a caricature of an airhead. Then, underestimated, the lipstick-wearing pit bull mauled poor Joe Biden. Biden was mauled? First I've heard of that.

Could be. The conversation brought to mind the classic film, "The Hustler." The late Paul Newman pretends to be dreadful at pool, and then, with his mark on the hook, clears the table.

Don't look now, Democrats. But you've been hustled.There are no words.

Jesus. When did mediocrity become something to celebrate?

My favorite moment was in essence, Ive only been here 5 weeks, I havnt had any time to break any promises yet.

Jesus. When did mediocrity become something to celebrate?

When mediocre is all you've got. Though I do recall four years ago cringing when Kerry debated with Bush about how badly he did.

It's bound to happen time to time. Did you see what happened every time she mentioned "Maverick?" People aren't buying that shit anymore.

Let's factcheck folks.

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.



I actually take issue with this one, because that really isn't how tax credits generally work. It isn't like a car loan from the government, nor is it a matter of the government paying your loan. It's basically an incentive to do something, not a direct payment. Someone getting that tax credit will have already been paying for their insurance in the past year. Chances are, they'll need that money in their pockets (not to mention that having some of it as they make payments on an insurance plan could earn them interest).

As an example of a tax credit, I got one this past year for buying a hybrid vehicle - to help with the added cost of buying a more fuel efficient car. But the credit didn't go to Honda. It went to me.

I think Biden won, however his blink count said that he was lying about some things.
Especially on his "For the war before he was against it" and the Bosnia thing. He was blinking up a storm there.

Everywhere else though he crushed her. It was only when she got into personal attacks that he showed some worry.

I watched the entire McCain/obama debate, and about an hour of the Palin/biden one... I only remember two things from the palin/biden debate
1. Biden totally mucked talking about that vote for troop funding...correct me if I'm wrong, but he said that McCain voted against it because it had a timeline...but he never explained why obama voted against it...politics? he doesn't want a timeline? last time I checked he did....though in the last debate obama said he would start taking troops out in 16 months,....so maybe he's flip-flopping ;)
2. This has stood out more than anything, when asked the question, what of the programs you want to add, are you going to cut because of economic stress.
in the first debate obama blundered around the question, in the second Biden seemed to say he would do it by cutting foreign aid...and taxing the rich...gee...thats gonna do a bunch of good...especially when he says later he supports intervention in darfur with on fly zones and all...and of course where gonna be able to do that without spending at all :rolleyes:
Palin's reply was much simpler. We aren't adding new spending, where cutting government spending.
those two are the only things I remember, and though biden seemed more polished (well duh, Palins been a governor for the last 2 years, probably not as used to politics as he is) I think they both met their expectations...so biden comes out ahead...but if anyone was astute enough to notice the last two points I just put up...they'll realize somethings a bit fuzzy (add in blinking and I'm a little scared)

the good news?? I don't care too much how the election turns out.
if McCain wins I'm happy (duh)
if obama wins he'll either do good schtuff (yeah!)
or fail miserably and we will learn a lesson about jumping on the change wagon (not all change is good change...)


thats my two cents.

I watched the entire McCain/obama debate, and about an hour of the Palin/biden one... I only remember two things from the palin/biden debate
1. Biden totally mucked talking about that vote for troop funding...correct me if I'm wrong, but he said that McCain voted against it because it had a timeline...but he never explained why obama voted against it...politics? he doesn't want a timeline? last time I checked he did....though in the last debate obama said he would start taking troops out in 16 months,....so maybe he's flip-flopping ;)
Obama voted for the one with a timeline.
2. This has stood out more than anything, when asked the question, what of the programs you want to add, are you going to cut because of economic stress.
in the first debate obama blundered around the question, in the second Biden seemed to say he would do it by cutting foreign aid...and taxing the rich...gee...thats gonna do a bunch of good...especially when he says later he supports intervention in darfur with on fly zones and all...and of course where gonna be able to do that without spending at all :rolleyes: Where did you get that he wouldn't spend at all?
Palin's reply was much simpler. We aren't adding new spending, where cutting government spending. And Congress has already said that they won't go for that. So there you go.
those two are the only things I remember, and though biden seemed more polished (well duh, Palins been a governor for the last 2 years, probably not as used to politics as he is) I think they both met their expectations...so biden comes out ahead...but if anyone was astute enough to notice the last two points I just put up...they'll realize somethings a bit fuzzy (add in blinking and I'm a little scared) A little, and I mean astonishingly little research and this post could of been avoided.

1. Biden totally mucked talking about that vote for troop funding...correct me if I'm wrong, but he said that McCain voted against it because it had a timeline...but he never explained why obama voted against it...politics? he doesn't want a timeline? last time I checked he did....though in the last debate obama said he would start taking troops out in 16 months,....so maybe he's flip-flopping ;)

I think I understood it.

He was saying that, if voting against a bill that provides funds for the troops is voting against troop funding, McCain is just as guilty. Obama voted for funding the troops with a timeline. McCain voted against it. Obama voted against a bill that funded the troops but did not include a timeline. McCain voted for it.

2. This has stood out more than anything, when asked the question, what of the programs you want to add, are you going to cut because of economic stress.
in the first debate obama blundered around the question, in the second Biden seemed to say he would do it by cutting foreign aid...and taxing the rich...gee...thats gonna do a bunch of good...especially when he says later he supports intervention in darfur with on fly zones and all...and of course where gonna be able to do that without spending at all :rolleyes:
Palin's reply was much simpler. We aren't adding new spending, where cutting government spending.

Simpler, but not any more useful. And not really truthful either. Both candidates have proposed programs that would constitute "new spending".

Obama at least wants to see such spending passed along with something to pay for it.

you see, biden didn't make that clear in the debate...he blustered around the whole troop funding thing and stuttered a lot. After that he was incredibly polished...but before...

where has congress said they won't go for that?
He says he's going to cut foreign aid/policy spending, but also says we should increase intervention...not meshing in my mind. And the way he's going to pay for his trillion dollar increase in spending (Palin said that, but biden didn't refute it, still might be high)
is to tax the rich...while, at the same time, cutting taxes for poorer people.
Now I luv tax breaks as much as anyone, but again this is not meshing in my mind...

He says he's going to cut foreign aid/policy spending, but also says we should increase intervention...not meshing in my mind. And the way he's going to pay for his trillion dollar increase in spending (Palin said that, but biden didn't refute it, still might be high)
is to tax the rich...while, at the same time, cutting taxes for poorer people.

I don't know what the actual "increase in spending" is, but I do know that Obama has been clear that they plan on closing tax loopholes and cutting some programs to pay for others.

He's very big on the idea that any new spending must be paid for - either by cutting something else or increasing revenues.

Biden stomped Palin. McCain's camp gets credit for making her look competent though. But Biden soundly beat her. He was more to the point, where Palin dodged several questions and flat out didnt answer a few, but started rambling on in another diection.

Biden also gets the Political Finess award of the night for the "I object to the implication that because Im a man I dont know what its like to be a singel parent" and then his story about his time as a single parent. Turn the potential attacks of sexism around. Genius. He also got a little chockd up when he talked about his son in Iraq and being worried about whether he was going to make it or not. Not choked up so much where it appeard fake like when Hillary did, but just enough for anyone who was paying attention to notice. He quickly got it under control, and geniune shows of emotion like that can only help him. He also combated Palin's "middle class" credentials by talking about how he was never that wealthy before being in the senate. Biden was also very clever to point out that many of the votes Obama was attacked on, McCain voted the exact same way, which destroyed a bit of Palins credibility, and would have done the same toMcCain if it wasnt for the fact that he doesnt have any left.

Only problem is he Bob Doled himself a few times, "No one in the senate has been a better friend to Israel than Joe Biden." *facepalm*

Palin did remarkably well. She held her own under intense scrutiny. She got frazzled a couple times and was backed into a cornor on a few occasions, but she quickly recovered. She was very friendly with the exception of a few vicious slander attacks on Obama and Biden, and was far more truthful than the head of the Republican ticket has been (aside from her consistant idiotic claims about being maveriks). But all in all the debate was very pleasent to watch. The two seemed to really like each other, and handled each other well. Palin was very strong in the middle of the debate, but started weak and finished weaker. Biden at the begining seemed a little weak, like he was trying to feel Palin out and figure out how to deal with her. But once he figured it out, he finished very very strong, was very direct and made his point very strongly.

Overall, I dont think this debate will help McCain (or Obama, but he doesnt need it right now) at all. It will at most give him a 1 point bump, if that. Palin's diehards will be encouraged by her preformance, but no one else will change their mind much. Biden showed hes a force to be reconed with and really got himself out there, which can only help Obama.

Heres an interesting editorial on the debate. The writer of it is someone whose opinion Ive learned to respect this campaign:http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/10/in_the_cold_light_of_morning_v.html


As an aside:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/03/usnews/whispers/main4498796.shtml


My congratulations to Senator Biden for his preformance, and my grudging congratulations to Gov. Palin for hers.

That's because she is lying. Shit, she even said the word naivety the exact same way McCain did. They have her trained right down to speech patterns.

Um, the word is naivete (with the appropriate accents added), and she said it correctly. I remember because I was actually kind of startled that she didn't deliberately butcher the French word to show what a doggone "nucular"-saying all-American she is, you betcha.

you see, biden didn't make that clear in the debate...he blustered around the whole troop funding thing and stuttered a lot. After that he was incredibly polished...but before...

where has congress said they won't go for that?
He says he's going to cut foreign aid/policy spending, but also says we should increase intervention...not meshing in my mind. And the way he's going to pay for his trillion dollar increase in spending (Palin said that, but biden didn't refute it, still might be high)
is to tax the rich...while, at the same time, cutting taxes for poorer people.
Now I luv tax breaks as much as anyone, but again this is not meshing in my mind...

Biden did make that absolutely clear. So did Obama when he said the same thing.

Meanwhile, what Biden said was specific things he would do to cut spending or to increase revenue due to the crisis.

What Palin said was that it was unnecessary for them to change anything because they aren't increasing spending. Palin was boldly lying. It's almost universally agreed that the promises of Obama and McCain, when they are compared represent an increase deficit. McCain's increase is something in the nature of 20 times larger because he doesn't intend to change anything to pay for the tax cuts he's offering. That was before the crisis. If she doesn't know that, then she's dangerously unqualified to be the VP.

My favorite moment was in essence, Ive only been here 5 weeks, I havnt had any time to break any promises yet.

Seriously, she actually admitted she wasn't saying anything with substance. At all. Break any promises? Do you think you're a seperate ticket, Palin? Every promise McCain makes is YOUR promise? You don't get to go, "I didn't say that. McCain did."

To be crude as well. I'd like to get Sarah drunk and go looking for moose in the dark. As far as letting her near the WH, no Fing way.

Id only hit Palin if I could give her an unwanted pregneny. Then we'll see how pro-life she is.

I personally thought it was also very damning that when Palin was asked if shes ever changed a stance in face of new evidence she said "No."

That made her seem very in line with Bush's "My Way or the Highway" policy. Combine that with flat out saying she agreed with Cheney, she really didnt help defend against the "4 more years" charge.

To put it crudely, I'd shag her but I'd not vote for her.

Hey, that was my line. I posted that a good two weeks ago. :p

Biden also gets the Political Finess award of the night for the "I object to the implication that because Im a man I dont know what its like to be a singel parent" and then his story about his time as a single parent.
He also got a little chockd up when he talked about his son in Iraq and being worried about whether he was going to make it or not.
He also combated Palin's "middle class" credentials by talking about how he was never that wealthy before being in the senate
.
Those three things were prob the best stuff he did, politically.
Pretty much all Palin has going for her now is her home life: son off to Iraq, hockey mom, devotion to family, etc. And Biden has informed the American public he's got all those credentials as well - PLUS some real experience and knowledge.

Biden, by stating his own son is already in Iraq trumped Palin on one of her few strengths. He then trumped another with his own distinctively middle-class background (he should have mentioned that he's still paying off his kid's student loans) and then hammered her with his tales of family.
Pretty much just tore the carpet from under her, leaving her with what? That she hunts moose?

I personally thought it was also very damning that when Palin was asked if shes ever changed a stance in face of new evidence she said "No."

That made her seem very in line with Bush's "My Way or the Highway" policy. Combine that with flat out saying she agreed with Cheney, she really didnt help defend against the "4 more years" charge.

I watched with a friend who isn't that into politics and she reacted pretty harshly to those two moments. Seriously, that's just a flat out admission that they're more of the same.

I like Biden's replies on both of those.

Frankly, I think she did very well at times. Very, very well. And I don't mean didn't drool. Some of her answers were to the point, highlighted positives for her campaign or negatives of the other, and showed she does better when less scripted. There just weren't enough of those moments and she basically demonstrated that when she wasn't sure, it was best to punt and pray.

Hey, that was my line. I posted that a good two weeks ago. :p

>.>

<.<

So I steal lines.

Frankly, I think she did very well at times. Very, very well. And I don't mean didn't drool. Some of her answers were to the point, highlighted positives for her campaign or negatives of the other, and showed she does better when less scripted. There just weren't enough of those moments and she basically demonstrated that when she wasn't sure, it was best to punt and pray.

They were maybe "to the point" on whatever point she wanted to make. Unfortunately, they very rarely had anything to do with the question being asked.

They were maybe "to the point" on whatever point she wanted to make. Unfortunately, they very rarely had anything to do with the question being asked.

She stated her intent early on, "You two have your little debate, there, I'm gonna have a stump speech to this camera here."

She stated her intent early on, "You two have your little debate, there, I'm gonna have a stump speech to this camera here."

Precisely. So it's hard for me to say that she did well in the debate. She basically stated her non-participation in that from the very start.

Palin's flippant disregard for the format, and the questions being asked was offensive. She was practically stumping, not debating. And her robotic readbacks of spoonfed lines demonstrated how ill equiped she is for the office she's nominated for. Good thing the GOP is going to take it in the shorts again next month.

I actually take issue with this one, because that really isn't how tax credits generally work. It isn't like a car loan from the government, nor is it a matter of the government paying your loan. It's basically an incentive to do something, not a direct payment. Someone getting that tax credit will have already been paying for their insurance in the past year. Chances are, they'll need that money in their pockets (not to mention that having some of it as they make payments on an insurance plan could earn them interest).

As an example of a tax credit, I got one this past year for buying a hybrid vehicle - to help with the added cost of buying a more fuel efficient car. But the credit didn't go to Honda. It went to me.

Indeed, I'd rather it go to you. Also, let's look at the lies from last night. Here's the scorecard using factcheck.org. Most of Palin's big moments seems to have not been entirely honest. Go figure, a campaign that has been lying keeps lying.

Ah, the morning after. You had a reckless blast last night, doing or saying whatever felt good in that moment. Now, it's time to wake up and face facts. You're not really a movie-producing fireman-cop, and she isn't really on the pill.

FactCheck.org is the political equivalent of that buzzkill friend who cluelessly salts your game whenever you bring him or her out with you.

They have already analyzed last night's Vice Presidential Debate, and although both candidates practiced elasticity of veracity, the winner of the FactCheck Derby was clearly Joe Biden. Just on volume, Biden had fewer miscues, but when you weight them for the seriousness of the error, the contrast is stark. You can check out their full report, but here's my rundown.

Palin: Falsely claimed that we are now at pre-surge troop levels. Even with scheduled withdrawals through February, 2009, we will still be 6,000 troops north of the pre-surge force size.

Biden: Said McCain voted "the exact same way" as Obama on troop funding. In reality, although McCain opposed a funding bill that included timelines for withdrawal, and urged the eventual veto, he didn't actually show up to vote on it.

I'd give Biden only half a point off, since what he said is true in spirit, if not to the letter. Palin gets a full point off, even though you could argue for more based on the grossness of the error, and its greater political significance.


Palin: Repeated again a false claim that Obama voted to raise taxes on families making only $42,000 a year, one that FactCheck has debunked twice. The lie is willful, since the McCain had already been forced to change their lying estimate once by FactCheck.

Biden: Again, inaccurately claimed that McCain had voted the "exact same way," when he had, again, skipped the vote.

In an abundance of fairness, I'll deduct a full point for each, even though Palin's lie is much more egregious, and the defense to Biden's mistake isn't really helpful to McCain. Palin:-2 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Falsely claimed McCain's health care plan would be "budget neutral." Independent estimates put the plan's cost, including revenue offsets from taxing employer-based plans, at $14-163 billion for just the year 2013. Palin:-3 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Falsely claimed that Obama's plan calls for healthcare to be "taken over by the feds," and that it would be "government run." This is a popular fallacy by the right, but it isn't true. Obama's plan calls for more choices in publicly funded health care. Palin:-4 Biden:-1.5

Biden: Said that McCain said he wouldn't even sit down with the government of Spain. FactCheck's defense of McCain is that he didn't say he wouldn't, just that he wouldn't commit to doing it. They also said that McCain probably didn't understand the question. This should actually be a point in Biden's favor, but I will generously call it a push. Palin:-4 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Said "But when you talk about Barack's plan to tax increase affecting only those making $250,000 a year or more, you're forgetting millions of small businesses that are going to fit into that category." However, independent estimates show that several hundred thousand small businesses, at most, would pay more under Obama's plan. Palin:-5 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Disagreed with Biden's assertion that the current U.S. commander in Afghanistan said that "surge principles" would not work there. The general did say that, and she got his name wrong. This could easily be two points or more, but I will only knock off one. Palin:-6 Biden:-1.5

Palin: Said that it is untrue that the U.S. is killing civilians in Afghanistan. According to an analysis by the AP, however, the US is killing more civilians than insurgents are. Palin: –7 Biden: –1.5

Biden: Said his "clean coal" line was taken out of context. In fact, his statement just didn't make sense, and his record shows clear support for clean coal. Palin: -7 Biden:- 2.5

Palin: Overstated the case that McCain "sounded the alarm" on Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae. I'd only take a half-point here. Palin: -7.5 Biden: -2.5

Palin: Misstated oil imports at $700 million, instead of true estimate of $493 million. Palin: -8.5 Biden:-2.5

Biden: Biden said McCain intends to deregulate health care. Fact Check got this wrong. I'll write a whole post about it later. Palin: -8.5 Biden: -2.5

Biden: repeated several times the Obama campaign's fair, but technically unclear, assertion that McCain's plan gives $4 billion a year to oil companies. It does, but as part of more massive giveaways to all corporations. This is a push. Palin: -8.5 Biden: -2.5

Palin: Criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 energy bill, saying "that's what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks." The bill did give breaks, but took away others, and the net effect was a tax increase for oil companies. Palin: -9.5 Biden: -2.5

Biden: Misstated Iraqi surplus as $80 million instead of $79 million. Push, he was rounding up. Palin: -9.5 Biden: -2.5

Biden: Misstated the number of times McCain voted against alternative energy. It was 11, not 20. Palin: -9.5 Biden: -3.5

Eventually, there may develop a "FactCheck Effect" that causes candidates to toe the line of accuracy more closely, to avoid these information hangovers. Maybe not, though. Everybody loves to brag about that great night, and nobody ever remembers the morning after.

Tommy Christopher co-hosts "Unusable Signal" , on BlogTalkRadio Tues & Thur at 9pm, and Wed, Fri, & Sat at 11pm. Click here for the Unusable Signal homepage.

It seems that this was the M*A*S*H finale of VP debates... (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/vp-debate-ratings-winner.html)

At one annoying moment, the Democrat even instructed the moderator, PBS' Gwen Ifill, that Palin hadn't answered a question. He could have said that directly to Palin, but, in a McCainesque moment, he ignored her.
The Democrat, how dare he mention that Palin dodged a question!
correct me if I'm wrong but surely the correct procedure during a debate is to address your questions towards the moderator not the opponent.
In which case, CNN is attacking Biden for following correct procedure. How like a ebil 'liberal' media outlet

It seems that this was the M*A*S*H finale of VP debates... (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/vp-debate-ratings-winner.html)
which further strengthens what I said earlier that it's becoming more likely that the veeps will win or lose this election now.
More scrutiny Palin's put under the better, imo.

All the typical people saying all the typical things. Good thing most of you went into the debates with an open mind. I had to listen to them on the radio so I was not able to judge Palin, or Biden, on mere appearances, blinking, or winking. Some of the critics, most actually, are laughable.

Palin did an excellent job and took the fight to Barry and Joe. Even Biden seemed to be quite enamored with her when I finally got to watch the rebroadcast. But what most of you missed is that her "folksy thing" is how she really is. It is the same condition that blinds you to Bush and the "stupid" way he trounces the Democrats time and time again. Once again, how dumb are you when the dumbasses keep beating you?

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down. The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.

Biden also gets the Political Finess award of the night for the "I object to the implication that because Im a man I dont know what its like to be a singel parent" and then his story about his time as a single parent. Turn the potential attacks of sexism around. Genius. He also got a little chockd up when he talked about his son in Iraq and being worried about whether he was going to make it or not. Not choked up so much where it appeard fake like when Hillary did, but just enough for anyone who was paying attention to notice. He quickly got it under control, and geniune shows of emotion like that can only help him.

I have to point out, there's a reason that Biden's appearance of emotion looked real.

He's not choked up because of his son being in Iraq - he's choked up because of the Christmas 1972 car accident that killed his wife, and year-old daughter, and left him wondering if he was going to lose his critically injured sons, too.

All the typical people saying all the typical things. Good thing most of you went into the debates with an open mind. I had to listen to them on the radio so I was not able to judge Palin, or Biden, on mere appearances, blinking, or winking. Some of the critics, most actually, are laughable.

Palin did an excellent job and took the fight to Barry and Joe. Even Biden seemed to be quite enamored with her when I finally got to watch the rebroadcast. But what most of you missed is that her "folksy thing" is how she really is. It is the same condition that blinds you to Bush and the "stupid" way he trounces the Democrats time and time again. Once again, how dumb are you when the dumbasses keep beating you?

So this is your typical defense of "You are all wrong and Im right"? Awesome. Care you explain why Palin won?

See, at least I had the deceny in my post to say Palin did well. We call that honosty. Try it some time, it feels really good.

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down.

Your evidence of this is???

After the election, Im going to TG spam you laughing my ass off at your "prediction".

The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.

Kerry was hardly ever up, and never projected to have 300+ electoral votes.

Gore was always shown to be in a close race. Your poor rememberence of recent history amusses me.

Your defense is really funny. You have nothing to back up your claims of an Obama defeat. NOTHING. Yet you say it should be obvious.

All the typical people saying all the typical things. Good thing most of you went into the debates with an open mind. I had to listen to them on the radio so I was not able to judge Palin, or Biden, on mere appearances, blinking, or winking. Some of the critics, most actually, are laughable.

Palin did an excellent job and took the fight to Barry and Joe. Even Biden seemed to be quite enamored with her when I finally got to watch the rebroadcast. But what most of you missed is that her "folksy thing" is how she really is. It is the same condition that blinds you to Bush and the "stupid" way he trounces the Democrats time and time again. Once again, how dumb are you when the dumbasses keep beating you?

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down. The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.

Post like this make me laugh. Insecurity at its finest. Just reassure yourself that you're actually winning, and it's easier to get through the day. :)

Snip BS.

Unsnipped BS:

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down. The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.

Obama vs. McCain, this day in 2008:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Pngs/Oct03.png

Obama 338 McCain 185 Ties 15

Kerry vs. Bush, this day in 2004:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Pngs/Oct03.png

Kerry 238 Bush 296

Final image:

http://blog.pharmalive.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/o_rly.jpg

Obama vs. McCain, this day in 2008:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Pngs/Oct03.png

Obama 338 McCain 185 Ties 15

Kerry vs. Bush, this day in 2004:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Pngs/Oct03.png

Kerry 238 Bush 296

Final image:

http://blog.pharmalive.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/o_rly.jpg

Clearly you dont know anything. TSF is right, never mind that nothing out there agrees with his assertion.

Clearly you dont know anything. TSF is right, never mind that nothing out there agrees with his assertion.

You're so lucky I know you're being sarcastic. ;)

Sadly, TSF's already run off with his tail between his legs.

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down. The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.
I just did, and for the entire month of October through to election day, Kerry was leading in electoral votes for just 11 of those days - 5 of those were by 10 or less electoral votes and he never got over the 300 vote threshold ever.
In the week leading up to the election, Kerry led for just 2 of those days + 1 tie.

So the connection between Kerry's and Obama's poll results is....what exactly?

Good thing some of us: 1. have working memories; and 2. Are able to use internet search engines.

I just did, and for the entire month of October through to election day, Kerry was leading in electoral votes for just 11 of those days - 5 of those were by 10 or less electoral votes and he never got over the 300 vote threshold ever.
In the week leading up to the election, Kerry led for just 2 of those days + 1 tie.

So the connection between Kerry's and Obama's poll results is....what exactly?

Good thing some of us: 1. have working memories; and 2. Are able to use internet search engines.

I wonder how poor TSF will react when Obama wins.

Sadly, TSF's already run off with his tail between his legs.

I would expect no less from him.


The only bigger joke on the conservative said then TSF is Sarah Palin.

I wonder how poor TSF will react when Obama wins.

Im hoping he leaves the country.

Im hoping he leaves the country.

I'm hoping he can't.

Nah, he'll be "shocked" at first as to "how the american people can sell themselves down the river like that." Then start ranting about how "B. Hussein," is going to allow another terr-rist attack. And then, a couple years down the road, when the economy starts to bounce back he'll claim it was all W and his intelligent policies.

Book it.

Book it.

I won't, because I REALLY don't want to watch THAT movie.

Nah, he'll be "shocked" at first as to "how the american people can sell themselves down the river like that." Then start ranting about how "B. Hussein," is going to allow another terr-rist attack. And then, a couple years down the road, when the economy starts to bounce back he'll claim it was all W and his intelligent policies.

Book it.
Wow, you must be psychic. ;) Rather than question what TSF et al will do, we should make a pool on what dates after the election they'll start doing the above. :D

Wow, you must be psychic. ;) Rather than question what TSF et al will do, we should make a pool on what dates after the election they'll start doing the above. :D

I'm putting down 20 Internets on "Within the first five days after the election."

Wow, you must be psychic. ;) Rather than question what TSF et al will do, we should make a pool on what dates after the election they'll start doing the above. :D

Put me down for $20 that he make the economic claims in April 2010...;)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/ap_on_en_tv/tv_debate_ratings

Nielsen Media Research says preliminary ratings in the nation's 55 biggest markets were up 42 percent from the same measurement of John McCain and Barack Obama's first encounter last Friday.

Nielsen's specific estimate of how many people watched Thursday night will be out later, but indications are it will be one of the most-watched political debates ever.
So Palin lost the debate by a wider margin than McCain lost his first one and made herself look spunky but incompetent before even more people. Good goin' there, Bible Spice. :D

Of course:
Curiosity over Palin's performance undoubtedly played a role, but don't discount timing: More people generally watch television on Thursdays than Fridays.
Ah, another thing the Republicans did wrong in this, the potentially most fucked up campaign ever.

Bible Spice.

Is this nickname one you came up with? Because it's GENIUS!

Is this nickname one you came up with? Because it's GENIUS!
Not mine. I was told it at a cocktail bar. I like it, too.

Id only hit Palin if I could give her an unwanted pregneny. Then we'll see how pro-life she is.

she had a baby that she knew had down syndrome...I think that demonstrated how prolife she is...at least mostly.

and if you did, in her defense no matter how prolife I was I would kill my baby, or even myself, just so that the world would not have to have a little you :p (JK)
maybe
not

>.>

<.<

So I steal lines.

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

See?

she had a baby that she knew had down syndrome...I think that demonstrated how prolife she is...at least mostly.

and if you did, in her defense no matter how prolife I was I would kill my baby, or even myself, just so that the world would not have to have a little you :p (JK)
maybe
not

Unless she had the baby just to further her political career....

I'd just like to give a big shoutout to Joe Sixpack, out there in Americaland, and urge with you, goshdarnit, get together with the hockey moms, all over this wonnerful country of ours, and do mavericky things, in a bipartisan manner, so we can show those terrorists, rearing their heads there in Eyerack and, and other places, with their scary nucular weapons, that by gum, we love our freedom, and our families.
Now, I know that some of you out there, on the East Coast, God luv ya, you're kind of insiders, ya just don't get this whole love-our-freedom thingy, with that drill-baby-drill that's such a part of John McCain's successful energy policy, that's so, full of success, in creating jobs, and in being maverick, and in loving our freedom, well, what can I tell ya? I'm not here to talk to you in that Washington-speak, or to play that whole answer-the-questions game. I'm here to talk to the American people, just like we always do in Alaska, where I am the executive experience. Of which, ya notice? Barack O'Biden doesn't got any. And they're wantin' to white-flag surrender our troops? Golly, I just don't know.

It seems that this was the M*A*S*H finale of VP debates... (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/vp-debate-ratings-winner.html)

Did you notice the fifth comment down on that piece? Fucking hilarious...

Sarah Pallen DESTROYED Joe Bieden last night, and I look forward to voting for Sarah Pallen as president in 2012 and 2016.

This proud Marine will vote for the TWO CONSERVATIVE MAVRICKS: JOHN MCCAIN AND SARAH PALLEN. They support our troops and won't wave the white flag of surender in Iraq and Afganistan.

PUT THE 2 MAVRICKS FROM THE SENATE AND PUT THEM IN THE WHITE HOSE!

MARINE SOLDIERS FOR MCACAIN/PALLEN
mCCAIN/PALLEN 2008
PALLEN/ALAN KEYES 2012
PALLEN/KEYES 2016


I lol'd

she had a baby that she knew had down syndrome...I think that demonstrated how prolife she is...at least mostly.

Not really. Now, spina bifada, that would have demonstrated it.

Did you notice the fifth comment down on that piece? Fucking hilarious...




I lol'd
What's the white hose?

Did you notice the fifth comment down on that piece? Fucking hilarious...




I lol'd

As a translator, I must know: What's a "Mavrick"? :p

Snip.

Ow.

Not really. Now, spina bifada, that would have demonstrated it.

Or even worse.

Imagine the conversation:

"I'm sorry, we've got terrible news. Now, remember, there are options - we can terminate if you want to go that way, and adoption is always a possibility... but, I have to tell you now, this child is going to suffer..."

"For God's sake man, tell me what's wrong!"

"I'm afraid your baby... is going to look a bit like George Bush..."

*sobs*

why is she appealing to joe sixpack? isnt she pentecostal and arent they teetotalers?

Re the gloating aimed at TSF: lay off. It's too early for gloating, but it's not too early to clobber people who do it.

My sister watched the debate. She's a pretty average person. Got pregnant by her high school boyfriend and has two kids with him. Low middle class. High school education for both her and her husband.

Her take was that Palin was acting like it was a beauty pagent. She found it insulting and said if she were supporting Palin because she thought it was good for women that would have changed her mind.

Re the gloating aimed at TSF: lay off. It's too early for gloating, but it's not too early to clobber people who do it.

When can we start gloating? Can we start a pool for when it's okay to start the pool?

I have to point out, there's a reason that Biden's appearance of emotion looked real.

He's not choked up because of his son being in Iraq - he's choked up because of the Christmas 1972 car accident that killed his wife, and year-old daughter, and left him wondering if he was going to lose his critically injured sons, too.

I honestly thought that was his worst moment, actually using that like that. What an asshole to use his own emotional problems to tug heartstrings.

Personally, I think that's even more despicable than the way it's normally done.

Gloat AT ALL and we feed you to the crocodiles. The ones in the pool.

Re the gloating aimed at TSF: lay off. It's too early for gloating, but it's not too early to clobber people who do it.

I agree completely, but feel it should be noted that TSF is the one that started the early gloating. See below (emphasis added):

All the typical people saying all the typical things. Good thing most of you went into the debates with an open mind. I had to listen to them on the radio so I was not able to judge Palin, or Biden, on mere appearances, blinking, or winking. Some of the critics, most actually, are laughable.

Palin did an excellent job and took the fight to Barry and Joe. Even Biden seemed to be quite enamored with her when I finally got to watch the rebroadcast. But what most of you missed is that her "folksy thing" is how she really is. It is the same condition that blinds you to Bush and the "stupid" way he trounces the Democrats time and time again. Once again, how dumb are you when the dumbasses keep beating you?

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down. The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.

Come to think of it, while he may have won the debate, I left it feeling that I really did not like Biden at all, and I'm starting to regret that Obama chose him.

I honestly thought that was his worst moment, actually using that like that. What an asshole to use his own emotional problems to tug heartstrings.

Personally, I think that's even more despicable than the way it's normally done.

I guess. I don't think it was a political choice, though. I think he strted off talking about the subtle implicit sexism in Palin's platform, and ended up in a moment of genuine emotion... but I could be wrong.

I'd agree with you, absolutely, if I thought he faked it, or that it was contrived.

Come to think of it, while he may have won the debate, I left it feeling that I really did not like Biden at all, and I'm starting to regret that Obama chose him.

There are a couple of moments where he lost me, but... it would have been political suicide to actually come out in favour of gay marriage, for example... so I'm not too surprised about it.

All in all, I think I came away with a better idea of who Biden is (or appears to be), and I guess that's what the point of the thing is.

As to whether he was a good choice for Obama... I'm pressed to think of one better. Maybe that's enough. I think Biden was a pretty good choice.

I guess. I don't think it was a political choice, though. I think he strted off talking about the subtle implicit sexism in Palin's platform, and ended up in a moment of genuine emotion... but I could be wrong.

I'd agree with you, absolutely, if I thought he faked it, or that it was contrived.

Personally, I'd go with it being genuine. Having lost people I've cared about, I can say that it never stops hurting.

Personally, I'd go with it being genuine. Having lost people I've cared about, I can say that it never stops hurting.

Agreed. And it didn't look like he forced the conversation there either - so I don't think it was contrived. It looked like a stream of narrative that took him slightly by surprised, and he had to take a second to collect himself and get back on track.

But I'll admit he could just be a fantastic actor.

I guess. I don't think it was a political choice, though. I think he strted off talking about the subtle implicit sexism in Palin's platform, and ended up in a moment of genuine emotion... but I could be wrong.

I'd agree with you, absolutely, if I thought he faked it, or that it was contrived.

There are a couple of moments where he lost me, but... it would have been political suicide to actually come out in favour of gay marriage, for example... so I'm not too surprised about it.

All in all, I think I came away with a better idea of who Biden is (or appears to be), and I guess that's what the point of the thing is.

As to whether he was a good choice for Obama... I'm pressed to think of one better. Maybe that's enough. I think Biden was a pretty good choice.

Oh, I know, I know.

But intellectual knowledge does not necessarily align with emotional feeling.

Oh, I know, I know.

But intellectual knowledge does not necessarily align with emotional feeling.

Agreed. Emotional knowledge tells me the ideal ticket would have been Gravel/Koch, while intellectual knowledge says that 6 votes was never going to win the '08 election.

ohhhhhhh rachel maddow had the source of that "ronald reagan talking about the sunset years looking back on freedom" quote.

it IS from reagan. but it was from the 60's and he was talking about the evils of MEDICARE leading to socialism. he was against health care for old people.

thats not as nice a quote anymore.

Come to think of it, while he may have won the debate, I left it feeling that I really did not like Biden at all, and I'm starting to regret that Obama chose him.
i had quite the opposite reaction. i have always been ambivalent about biden but this debate left me feeling very good about him.

ohhhhhhh rachel maddow had the source of that "ronald reagan talking about the sunset years looking back on freedom" quote.

it IS from reagan. but it was from the 60's and he was talking about the evils of MEDICARE leading to socialism. he was against health care for old people.

thats not as nice a quote anymore.

Comparable to Kim Jong Il reciting poetry, I guess...

ohhhhhhh rachel maddow had the source of that "ronald reagan talking about the sunset years looking back on freedom" quote.

it IS from reagan. but it was from the 60's and he was talking about the evils of MEDICARE leading to socialism. he was against health care for old people.

thats not as nice a quote anymore.

And what's sad is that by then, Reaganistas can genuinely pass it off as the onset of Alzheimer's talking.

Agreed. And it didn't look like he forced the conversation there either - so I don't think it was contrived. It looked like a stream of narrative that took him slightly by surprised, and he had to take a second to collect himself and get back on track.

But I'll admit he could just be a fantastic actor.

But he quickly regained control of himself and changed to topic. If it was intentional, he would have made sure everyone saw his emotional breakdown rather then just those who were watching closely.

Not really. Now, spina bifada, that would have demonstrated it.

huh? Not sure what you meant here.

I agree completely, but feel it should be noted that TSF is the one that started the early gloating. <snip>

Gotcha, CT (nearly posted "gotcha, TC"; now feel like Benny the Ball -- "TOP CAT, the most effectual TOP CAT; he's intellectual ...").

Okay, I'll channel Mr Garrison: Gloats'r'bad, m'kay?

Gloats'r'bad, m'kay?

But they FEEL so GOOD...

Gotcha, CT (nearly posted "gotcha, TC"; now feel like Benny the Ball -- "TOP CAT, the most effectual TOP CAT; he's intellectual ...").

Okay, I'll channel Mr Garrison: Gloats'r'bad, m'kay?

Close friends get to call him "T.C."
Providing it's with digniteeeee
Top Cat
The indisputable leader of the gang
He's the boss, he's a vip, he's the championship
He's the most tip top
Top Cat!

Yes, he's the chief, he's the king, but above ev'rything
He's the most tip top
Top Cat!

Takes me back.

Didn't watch it. Haven't read about it. I just imagined that both candidates emphasized all of their most negative aspects, and we, as a nation, have decided that we want a ticket with Obama at the Prez spot, and McCain at the Veep spot.

And that hilarity ensued for the next four years.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

EEE! Obama LEADING in North Carolina!

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

EEE! Obama LEADING in North Carolina!

Good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/maddillphatyo/sarahpalinflowchart.jpg

Saw this on another forum and just had to share it.

Here's a link to the creator's blog.

http://www.adennak.com/blog/wordpress/

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

EEE! Obama LEADING in North Carolina!
538 has issued a correction: the survey that resulted in Obama 2% ahead of McCain was on "Who do you trust more to handle the economy?" not "Who do you plan to vote for?"
However, Obama has been very close to McCain in North Carolina for a while now, and may genuinely take the lead soon. I called a buddy in Greensboro today (feeling just as startled as you were by that report of Obama leading there) to ask if this was really true, and Steve told me there are all kinds of different people in that state now (there is still a Confederate flag hanging over the cash register of his hardware store, for example) and who knows where it's going.

All the typical people saying all the typical things. Good thing most of you went into the debates with an open mind. I had to listen to them on the radio so I was not able to judge Palin, or Biden, on mere appearances, blinking, or winking. Some of the critics, most actually, are laughable.

Palin did an excellent job and took the fight to Barry and Joe. Even Biden seemed to be quite enamored with her when I finally got to watch the rebroadcast. But what most of you missed is that her "folksy thing" is how she really is. It is the same condition that blinds you to Bush and the "stupid" way he trounces the Democrats time and time again. Once again, how dumb are you when the dumbasses keep beating you?

November is going to be very good for me. Obama is going down. The best part are the polls that so many love to quote showing Obama up. Take a look at what the polls said of Gore and Kerry before they got their asses handed to them.

Just an interesting point related to this. Mods asked for people not to gloat, but isn't this what TSF is trying to do? I mean, he's failing at it. Isn't it the same? Care to comment on the post I made about the lies she told vs. Biden. Sure, you listened to it on the radio. She had a few good lines and some zingers. It's a shame that many of those zingers were just patently false. It's great to talk shit one night, but when you get called out the next it's just embarrassing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/opinion/04herbert.html?hp


Epic.

Gotcha, CT (nearly posted "gotcha, TC"; now feel like Benny the Ball -- "TOP CAT, the most effectual TOP CAT; he's intellectual ...").

Okay, I'll channel Mr Garrison: Gloats'r'bad, m'kay?

I think you're awesome, but Mr. Mackey the guidance counselor says mmm'k'ay

538 has issued a correction: the survey that resulted in Obama 2% ahead of McCain was on "Who do you trust more to handle the economy?" not "Who do you plan to vote for?"
However, Obama has been very close to McCain in North Carolina for a while now, and may genuinely take the lead soon. I called a buddy in Greensboro today (feeling just as startled as you were by that report of Obama leading there) to ask if this was really true, and Steve told me there are all kinds of different people in that state now (there is still a Confederate flag hanging over the cash register of his hardware store, for example) and who knows where it's going.

Oh darn.

Still, it's good news.

I think you're awesome, but Mr. Mackey the guidance counselor says mmm'k'ay

I knew that! I knew that! I really did!

*lashes self with wet spaghetti*

It'll be interesting to compare Gov. Palin's debate performance with her stump speech - I'll be attending her rally tomorrow morning. Why she's in California, I haven't a clue, but I thought I'd check it out, being in the neighborhood and all. :)

Was that a genuine conflation or was it Al Qaeda AND Shi'a extremists as two separate groups who need military attention?

All I can say is this is what she said:

We can start putting more troops in Afghanistan as we also work with our NATO allies who are there strengthening us and we need to grow our military. We cannot afford to lose against al Qaeda and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us, but we're getting closer and closer to victory.

It appears to be a genuine gaffe.

Not really. Now, spina bifada, that would have demonstrated it.

thus the at least mostly on my thing ;)

it is at least a shove in the right direction that she walks what she talks or something like that ;)

I actually found the debate hilarious...Biden was trying to be nice, as he can't be sexist now, and it came off hilariously condescending, at least to me. Whereas Palin, seemed genuinely clueless...and kinda had the...my 5 weeks of briefing haven't covered this expression a fair amount...I thought she actually pulled it off fairly well considering she is an outsider after all.

and then the best part was they were always saying the other did good things, and that there respective candidates were scum...it was like "ahhh, how bout you two just become president since you agree on so much"

IDK I found it hilarious.

It'll be interesting to compare Gov. Palin's debate performance with her stump speech - I'll be attending her rally tomorrow morning. Why she's in California, I haven't a clue, but I thought I'd check it out, being in the neighborhood and all. :)
ooooo take notes! id love to read an eye witness account by someone who isnt a palindrone

ooooo take notes! id love to read an eye witness account by someone who isnt a palindrone

Its a shame NS can't host a video file... we could have had our own on-the-spot reporter.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/



Is anyone else having trouble getting to fivethirtyeight.com?

Is anyone else having trouble getting to fivethirtyeight.com?

Showing up OK here.

Showing up OK here.

Huh...I keep getting one of those place holder websites when I put in the url and when I click the link. I even tried another browser.

Fucking weird. And frustrating. Frustrating and weird.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/maddillphatyo/sarahpalinflowchart.jpg

Saw this on another forum and just had to share it.

Here's a link to the creator's blog.

http://www.adennak.com/blog/wordpress/
Very nice.

Is anyone else having trouble getting to fivethirtyeight.com?
Works fine for me. Did you try googling it instead of just typing in the url? (i don't care if that doesn't make sense technically, it totally works sometimes <<)

Very nice.


Works fine for me. Did you try googling it instead of just typing in the url? (i don't care if that doesn't make sense technically, it totally works sometimes <<)
I did. I tried googling, clicking the link, using another browser...gaaaaaaahhhhhh...sucky...


EDIT:Alright, it's back...that was weird.

EDITEDIT:After all that and there isn't an update...<.< I should just pay attention to the sportscar race...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/opinion/04herbert.html?hp


Epic.
Holy crap:

Here’s Ms. Palin during the debate: “Say it ain’t so, Joe! There you go pointing backwards again ... Now, doggone it, let’s look ahead and tell Americans what we have to plan to do for them in the future. You mentioned education, and I’m glad you did. I know education you are passionate about with your wife being a teacher for 30 years, and God bless her. Her reward is in heaven, right?”
I had no idea it was that bad, even after reading the big thread. I mean, I read that she uses all these phrases - I just didn't have any idea she uses them all in one paragraph and they're all that's in there.

That's just insanely pathetic.

Holy crap:

I had no idea it was that bad, even after reading the big thread. I mean, I read that she uses all these phrases - I just didn't have any idea she uses them all in one paragraph and they're all that's in there.

That's just insanely pathetic.

Well goshamighty, sounds like you need to try goin to a soccer game, and listen to what real moms say when they're talkin around the kitchen table about what it takes to create jobs and cut taxes!

Huh...I keep getting one of those place holder websites when I put in the url and when I click the link. I even tried another browser.

Fucking weird. And frustrating. Frustrating and weird.

Here're the polls:

Today's Polls, 10/3

Another day, another good set of polling for Barack Obama -- with one important exception:


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2910156903_1639377b6a_o.png

Here're the polls:

I got on eventually, thanks. I was hoping that there'd be something new, but it's still early.

The campaigning lasts too long! It's a good thing that it will end next month!

Gloat AT ALL and we feed you to the crocodiles. The ones in the pool.

Do so and my zoo will sue your parents. I'm very rare.

Is anyone else having trouble getting to fivethirtyeight.com?

Yes.

ooooo take notes! id love to read an eye witness account by someone who isnt a palindrone

Since I have a few minutes to kill before going out to watch the Cubs beat the Dodgers, a few observations... :)

The crowd was *much* younger and more diverse than I expected, and was generally lively. Umbrellas were prohibited, even though rain was forecasted (there was a light drizzle, but nothing serious). It must've been 60+% women, many of them with kids. There seemed to be a large number of young couples and college students. Obama's supposed to be a big winner with the kids, but you wouldn't know it from the crowd, and given the brisk sales of McCain/Palin buttons (3 for $10) and tee-shirts ($10-20), I'd say that the number of uncommitted spectators was low. On the other hand, the event was at CSU Dominguez Hills in Carson, so a good showing from conservative-leaning students was probably expected. Whatever the reason, the majority of the crowd was aged between 25 and 45, which is quite a bit younger than rallies I've been to in the past.

So pretty much every demographic was represented, with the notable (if predictable) exception of blacks, who were more or less absent despite the event being held in the Long Beach/Compton area where you could reasonably expect more than the few dozen that I noticed. About 2/3 of the 30-or-so protesters near the gate were black, on the other hand. The Obama crowd was very small but *very* loud, since several of them had megaphones early on, before the police (I'm assuming) put an end to that. However it happened, the megaphone chants of "yehz we kay-uhn" and, later, "yehz we whee-uhl" (to approximate the accent) ceased after about a half an hour, when the megaphones were either taken or put away. Prior to the event (and possibly during, but I wasn't paying attention), a single-engine airplane buzzed the arena, dragging a pro-Obama slogan on a tether behind it, which also read: "NO ON PROP 4," in opposition to a measure that would require some sort of parental notification for childrens' abortions.

The local news says 20,000 people attended, which seems right to me. Half of us got to see Gov. Palin speak, while the other half watched everything on a large-screen t.v. at another tennis court/stadium across the way. I accidentally got into the VIP/Handicapped line (which was *completely* unmarked - identical to all the other lines) and consequently ended up in the nosebleeds after having to return to the back of the line. However, I enjoyed the speech just the same. John Voight was there - Conrack himself. :tongue: A representative of NOW introduced Sarah Palin, who was jokey and relaxed in her intro, before going into the more rehearsed bits, which were pretty effective, I thought.

It's 7:00, so I gotta get over to see the Cubs now. Good night! :)

Holy crap:

I had no idea it was that bad, even after reading the big thread. I mean, I read that she uses all these phrases - I just didn't have any idea she uses them all in one paragraph and they're all that's in there.

That's just insanely pathetic.

It's worse than that if you think about it - saying things about people's wives getting their rewards in heaven... to a guy who lost his first wife in a car wreck...

Palin has the empathy of a brick.

It's worse than that if you think about it - saying things about people's wives getting their rewards in heaven... to a guy who lost his first wife in a car wreck...

Palin has the empathy of a brick.

Yeah, my jaw dropped when she said that line, and I said, "Wait, was that meant to be a cheerful, jocular reference to his dead wife? Because it really kinda sounded like it was..."

Yeah, my jaw dropped when she said that line, and I said, "Wait, was that meant to be a cheerful, jocular reference to his dead wife? Because it really kinda sounded like it was..."
I didn't take it as that as more a slam to teachers everywhere, since the "reward is in heaven" is part of a concelation to people who will not receive rewards to their deeds on Earth, or 'we don't have to give teachers decent pay, their reward is in heaven.'

Also fucked up.

It's worse than that if you think about it - saying things about people's wives getting their rewards in heaven... to a guy who lost his first wife in a car wreck...

Palin has the empathy of a brick.

Yeah, my jaw dropped when she said that line, and I said, "Wait, was that meant to be a cheerful, jocular reference to his dead wife? Because it really kinda sounded like it was..."
That woman just plain does not give a shit, to an almost psychopathic degree.

huh? Not sure what you meant here.

Down syndrome isn't something that's serious enough for pretty much anyone to consider abortion. If I remember correctly, spina bifida (I spelled it wrong because I am stupid) is. It's entirely possible I'm wrong though. It was the most serious birth defect I could think of off-hand.

(I spelled it wrong because I am stupid)

Careful or I'll report you for flaming yourself, Kaji. ;)

Now THAT'S mods as weapons.

(And now I'm flamebaiting myself...)

Here're the polls:
I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Minnesota last went to GOP in 1972. They were 1 of only 3 states to go Dem in 1984 - and I'd hazard to bet McCain ain't anywhere in the same league as Ronnie in terms of popularity.
Hell, even Ronnie's wife doesn't like him!

Down syndrome isn't something that's serious enough for pretty much anyone to consider abortion. If I remember correctly, spina bifida (I spelled it wrong because I am stupid) is. It's entirely possible I'm wrong though. It was the most serious birth defect I could think of off-hand.
many many women abort after a diagnosis of downs syndrome. they are fragile retarded babies that require a very high level of attention if they are to achieve their best potential. many families know that they cannot possibly give a child that kind of attention. downs syndrome adults cant manage their own lives. its very hard to bring a child into the world when you know that you will some day leave them to be cared for by strangers (after you die)

As well, Down adults even now rarely live past 40. So it's not much of a life - for them or their families. The idea of looking after, basically, a 5 yr old* for the next 4 decades isn't a pleasant thought.

*by that I mean their control over themselves, as well as their IQ levels. Though some can be high level functioning. At the school I went to, the PE dept's assistant had Downs and, as long as you stuck to the topic of sports, you could have a very good lengthy conversation with him.
The big problem is they don't learn control. When they get older, they're a 5yr old with an adult's strength. Xmas one year I saw one Down's adult see Santa and literally pushed several people onto the ground as he bulldozed through the crowd, yelling, "Santa!" before picking the poor Santa up in a big hug. Imagine when he gets angry; the fear his poor family must live in over the damage he might do to them, himself or their house.

many many women abort after a diagnosis of downs syndrome. they are fragile retarded babies that require a very high level of attention if they are to achieve their best potential. many families know that they cannot possibly give a child that kind of attention. downs syndrome adults cant manage their own lives. its very hard to bring a child into the world when you know that you will some day leave them to be cared for by strangers (after you die)

Did not know that.

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Minnesota last went to GOP in 1972. They were 1 of only 3 states to go Dem in 1984 - and I'd hazard to bet McCain ain't anywhere in the same league as Ronnie in terms of popularity.
Hell, even Ronnie's wife doesn't like him!

No, only Minnesota and D.C. went Democrat in '84.

Down syndrome isn't something that's serious enough for pretty much anyone to consider abortion. If I remember correctly, spina bifida (I spelled it wrong because I am stupid) is. It's entirely possible I'm wrong though. It was the most serious birth defect I could think of off-hand.

I'm pretty sure we have a few spina bifida patients on this forum. I think that's why you're getting raised eyebrows over this.

I'm pretty sure we have a few spina bifida patients on this forum. I think that's why you're getting raised eyebrows over this.

I know we do, actually. It was just the most severe thing I could think of at the time, as well as the only thing I could think of that I knew was something that people considered abortion for.

It's worse than that if you think about it - saying things about people's wives getting their rewards in heaven... to a guy who lost his first wife in a car wreck...

Palin has the empathy of a brick.

I hadn't seen anyone else on the Internets comment on that until now. I was beginning to think the shock and horror at that particular line was restricted to me and the people I watched the debate with.

Yeah, my jaw dropped when she said that line, and I said, "Wait, was that meant to be a cheerful, jocular reference to his dead wife? Because it really kinda sounded like it was..."

Yeah...I didnt catch that till I read the transcript of the debate. Because to be honost, had I, my opinion of her preformance and how pleasent the debate was to watch would have been different.

No, only Minnesota and D.C. went Democrat in '84.
whoops. my mistake. I thought it was 3 for some reason.
Technically he only won one state, as DC isn't a state is it?

Down syndrome isn't something that's serious enough for pretty much anyone to consider abortion. If I remember correctly, spina bifida (I spelled it wrong because I am stupid) is. It's entirely possible I'm wrong though. It was the most serious birth defect I could think of off-hand.

I suppose it may be, but I am kind of glad that my mother didn't abort me.

It ain't fun, but it's not life-threatening. I would not, however, condemn any woman who thinks it might be too much for her to handle. It is a lot to deal with.

whoops. my mistake. I thought it was 3 for some reason.
Technically he only won one state, as DC isn't a state is it?

No, it's not. I have to say, though, that I'm stunned that the latest poll shows McCain with a 1 point lead in Minnesota. A Republican hasn't carried the state since 1972.

No, it's not. I have to say, though, that I'm stunned that the latest poll shows McCain with a 1 point lead in Minnesota. A Republican hasn't carried the state since 1972.
Quite. That's what my original post, with it's original 3-state gaffe, was about. If Reagan, at the height of his popularity, couldn't carry Minnesota how the hell are we to believe McCain has a shot?