NationStates Jolt Archive

Yeah, but he came back to life.

That took ages to do I think.

Jesus saves, but Vishnu scores on the rebound.

Damn you Bottle *shakes fist in impotent rage*

Jesus saves, but Vishnu scores on the rebound.

:fluffle: Mind if I sig?

:fluffle: Mind if I sig?
I lurve attention. SIG ME, SIG ME NAO!

Now in 3 new exciting flavours! :)
Strawberry Ifreann, Chocolate Mud Goofballs and Mod? :p

Jesus saves, but Vishnu scores on the rebound.

Bwahahahah funny!;)

Umm perhaps then Jesus should have 'done a Grobbeler!'

Reasons Why The Resistance Is Needed (Short List):

1) Abstinence-only education and related sex stuff. A study released in early 2007 revealed that that federally-funded abstinence-only programs are not only completely ineffective, but also exclude and often completely distort medical information. At this time, no federal funds are dedicated to supporting sexuality education programs that both teach abstinence and include complete and medically accurate information about how to use contraceptives effectively, even though such programs have been consistently proven to work. Every single major American group which opposes comprehensive sex ed is religiously affiliated and will freely admit to religious motives behind their work. Atheists have kids. Atheists care about kids. Atheists give a shit when kids are being fed dangerous misinformation. Atheists give a shit when kids' lives are being intentionally put in danger because some crazy fucks think it's important to make young people hate their bodies and believe fucking is a sin.


Wow abstinence only education has done about the same amount of damage as the just-throw-a-rubber-on-and-you'll-be-fine system of education.

That's why 1/4 in girls has HPV.

The mad left is still saying condoms are effective against HPV when they're not.

Jesus saves, but Vishnu scores on the rebound.

Sigged :D

Wow abstinence only education has done about the same amount of damage as the just-throw-a-rubber-on-and-you'll-be-fine system of education.

That's why 1/4 in girls has HPV.

The mad left is still saying condoms are effective against HPV when they're not.
I need to be very clear, here:

I DO NOT WANT my above post to be used to hijack this thread.

My post was a short list of reasons why atheists are forced to care about religious agendas. For the purposes of my post, it does not matter which side of those issues you happen to be on. All that matters is that they are examples of specific ways that religious belief is placed DIRECTLY in the personal lives of atheists and other non-believers, and thus these are reasons why atheists pretty much don't have the luxury of "live and let live" today.

I am happy to discuss other topics if you want to start other threads, but I really try not to participate in massive thread-jacks.

Bwahahahah funny!;)

Umm perhaps then Jesus should have 'done a Grobbeler!'

Bah, you're just holding out for someone to make a reference to Vahiguru :D

Bah, you're just holding out for someone to make a reference to Vahiguru :D

Mahah heee Vaheguru, Vishnu, Allah, Ram, Odin, JHVH, it's all the same innit!

Yes, but what's your point?

Atheists may defend but only Jesus saves

But Moses invests!

Seriously, how can you seriously say that? You just dismissed evidence of the freakish influence religion holds on American society-evidence from Bottle, who is probably one of the most reliable sources on NSG, since she has an obsession with sources-with a "Yes, but what's your point. JESUS SAAAVVVEESSSSZZZOMG!"

Seriously, how can you seriously say that? You just dismissed evidence of the freakish influence religion holds on American society-evidence from Bottle, who is probably one of the most reliable sources on NSG, since she has an obsession with sources-with a "Yes, but what's your point. JESUS SAAAVVVEESSSSZZZOMG!"
On the other hand, he also helped prove my point.

"Why are atheists so durn uppity?!"

Because of people who ignore thorough analysis, compiled facts, and legitimate arguments, in favor of saying shite like "But Jesus Saves!"

"Why are atheists so mean?!"

Because being nice and reasonable doesn't actually get us anywhere. We just get another person telling us that Jeebus Saves.

"Why do the atheists have to snark all over me?!"

Because your catch-phrases are funny. Atheists assume that you are initiating a friendly game of Let's Be Goofy, and they play along.

"Why can't atheists just leave me alone and accept that JEEEEZUS SAAAAAVES-AH!"

Because Vishnu scores on the rebound, and atheists are concerned about the point spread. We've been over this.

Atheists may defend but only Jesus savesProve it.

I guess if a person needs so bad to be "saved" or "forgiven" or "holy" or whatever that particular religion says you get for believing, and they need it so bad that they not only can but must believe it solely out of that need, what can you really say to them?

If the premise of their religion is what allows them to cope with their daily lives and their life without/before religion feels like an abyss (or whatever imagery they prefer), then "but Jesus saves" will be their answer to most things.

I'm not saying all religious folks are like that, but some are.

Some religions may argue that athiests are just trying to "deny that they will be judged" or otherwise get some comfort from not believing in any particular deity.

Jesus saves, but Vishnu scores on the rebound.I don't get it.

I don't get it.

Bwahhahha!:D

Imagine if you will football comentary. That is proper footie that us English play not the American stuff.

Bwahhahha!:D

Imagine if you will football comentary. That is proper footie that us English play not the American stuff.

Works for Basketball, too (which, I suspect is what Bottle was reffering too. I could be wrong, though), since most Americans have never heard commentary on a football (UK) game before in their lives.

But Moses invests!

Seriously, how can you seriously say that? You just dismissed evidence of the freakish influence religion holds on American society-evidence from Bottle, who is probably one of the most reliable sources on NSG, since she has an obsession with sources-with a "Yes, but what's your point. JESUS SAAAVVVEESSSSZZZOMG!"

Ammm....I know I am n00b and therefore accept I'm anonymous but, if the ridiculousness of that post doesn't make it clear enough, I'm quite obviously a vehement atheist as any search of my posts should verify - in fact, Bottle should know this from the 'Is religiosity a choice' thread.

I don't get it.

Bwahhahha!:D

Imagine if you will football comentary. That is proper footie that us English play not the American stuff.

Or hockey--same idea, but I like the idea of Vishnu on skates and Jesus in pads.

I really, really, really would love to not have to give a shit about superstition. I find it boring and annoying. But I am forced to care, and forced to speak out, because some superstitious people have decided it is their life's mission to get in my way. If you want me to shut up, all you got to do is shut them up.
What the hell are you talking about?

Gah, I just can't fucking understand why the hell do you people care so much about religion. Seriously, it puzzles and baffles me every day.

What the FUCK do I care about god? If there is any kind of god, thing which I don't know, they tend to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent... and if there is a god like that... What the hell does it matter my relation to it? It'd know all and be able to act in any way whatsoever, so what difference does my behavior make? And why the hell do I have to worship it? Isn't god supposed to be complete in its self-contemplation? Isn't god supposedly PERFECT?! Then why the hell do I *have* to praise it?

And another thing: If god is omnipotent and has a divine plan, its divine plan can't be thwarted. Then why the hell does it need me to follow its orders? Its plan will come up nicely no matter what, so I'm not lifting my pinky finger to help god. I'm not going to try to work against the divine plan, if there was one, doing so would be the most superlative exercise of futility ever made.

Bassically, whatever I do doesn't make a difference for god, at all. If it cares about me, my stance is "Well, I'm very much fine, thanks."

I don't know why you theists or atheists need the crutch of either someone looking over your shoulder or thinking that to this world, there's only what can be seen.

You'd be better of if you faced the fact that every one of us doesn't know jack shit square about the Universe and that we aren't anymore important that the pebbles the water washes ashore.

I need to be very clear, here:

I DO NOT WANT my above post to be used to hijack this thread.

My post was a short list of reasons why atheists are forced to care about religious agendas. For the purposes of my post, it does not matter which side of those issues you happen to be on. All that matters is that they are examples of specific ways that religious belief is placed DIRECTLY in the personal lives of atheists and other non-believers, and thus these are reasons why atheists pretty much don't have the luxury of "live and let live" today.

I am happy to discuss other topics if you want to start other threads, but I really try not to participate in massive thread-jacks.
Alright, no "live and let live," but what happened to "do unto others..."? That's operable on a case by case, personal basis. What I've heard as the outstanding rational arguement on this thread is "they do it, so it's okay for us to do it," reworked in your case into a calm and rational "here, these are the reasons why we attempt to tear down other's beliefs" (the issue of the OP).

I don't expect people will change, and proseltyzing is certainly not the norm, but it'd be nice if at least one atheist would admit that it does happen, occasionally, on this forum.

Gah, I just can't fucking understand why the hell do you people care so much about religion. Seriously, it puzzles and baffles me every day.

What the FUCK do I care about god? If there is any kind of god, thing which I don't know, they tend to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent... and if there is a god like that... What the hell does it matter my relation to it? It'd know all and be able to act in any way whatsoever, so what difference does my behavior make? And why the hell do I have to worship it? Isn't god supposed to be complete in its self-contemplation? Isn't god supposedly PERFECT?! Then why the hell do I *have* to praise it?

And another thing: If god is omnipotent and has a divine plan, its divine plan can't be thwarted. Then why the hell does it need me to follow its orders? Its plan will come up nicely no matter what, so I'm not lifting my pinky finger to help god. I'm not going to try to work against the divine plan, if there was one, doing so would be the most superlative exercise of futility ever made.

Bassically, whatever I do doesn't make a difference for god, at all. If it cares about me, my stance is "Well, I'm very much fine, thanks."

I don't know why you theists or atheists need the crutch of either someone looking over your shoulder or thinking that to this world, there's only what can be seen.

You'd be better of if you faced the fact that every one of us doesn't know jack shit square about the Universe and that we aren't anymore important that the pebbles the water washes ashore.

Yes, but what's your point?

Atheists may defend but only Jesus saves

Isn't god supposed to be complete in its self-contemplation? Isn't god supposedly PERFECT?! Then why the hell do I *have* to praise it?[/B]


Many people find that is easier to claim to be a believer out of fear, than to be a good person out of ethics.

In other words:

"Worship <insert deity here> or thou shalt be smitten by lightning! (And, while you're at it, give me money because <insert deity here> just told me you have to)."

Meh, it's sad to see people believe out of fear of hell, even when their own holy books talk about love.:(

Bwahhahha!:D

Imagine if you will football comentary. That is proper footie that us English play not the American stuff.I'm not too familiar with English-language sports commentary. (and having zero interest in sports, not all too familiar with such in Swedish either, save that I've occasionally had the mispleasure of being exposed to) I largely get it now, though.

Alright, no "live and let live," but what happened to "do unto others..."? That's operable on a case by case, personal basis. What I've heard as the outstanding rational arguement on this thread is "they do it, so it's okay for us to do it," reworked in your case into a calm and rational "here, these are the reasons why we attempt to tear down other's beliefs" (the issue of the OP).

I don't expect people will change, and proseltyzing is certainly not the norm, but it'd be nice if at least one atheist would admit that it does happen, occasionally, on this forum.

There are lots of atheists on this forum, it's inevitable that some of them will be proseltyzing asses. The same goes for any other religion that's represented here, there more of them there are, the more likely it is that some of them will be asshats.

Yes, but what's your point?

Atheists may defend but only Jesus saves

AND WHAT THE HELL DO I CARE TO BE SAVED?! RAWR!

AND WHAT THE HELL DO I CARE TO BE SAVED?! RAWR!

Caps lock=/=cruise control for awesome

Everyone likes it when others agree with them, some more so than others. As such, there are atheists and religious-types who are all very pushy and aggressive with their beliefs, deriding the beliefs of others.

People just ought to get off their own cocks and start minding their own fucking business.

Caps lock=/=cruise control for awesome

You're right. Caps lock is cruise control for cool, not for awesome. Some alliteration here, too.

Everyone likes it when others agree with them, some more so than others. As such, there are atheists and religious-types who are all very pushy and aggressive with their beliefs, deriding the beliefs of others.

People just ought to get off their own cocks and start minding their own fucking business.

The mental image of someone riding a massive chicken prevents me from taking this post seriously. Sorry.

Bottom line: religious people are far more "pushy" than athiests as a whole, and have been so for much much longer.


The thread ends here.

But the posts go on, I bet.

The thread ended some time ago.

Bottom line: religious people are far more "pushy" than athiests as a whole, and have been so for much much longer.


The thread ends here.

But the posts go on, I bet.

The mental image of someone riding a massive chicken prevents me from taking this post seriously. Sorry.

Chocobo ftw.


Now the thread ends.

AND WHAT THE HELL DO I CARE TO BE SAVED?! RAWR!

Replying like that shows why you, and so many others, will never resolve this debate.

If you even read back through just two pages of this thread you'll notice the reason for that reply and wouldn't have fallen for the very simple point I was making.

No one reads anyone else's points, no one listens to anyone else on this debate, it won't be resolved for millennia to come.

There are lots of atheists on this forum, it's inevitable that some of them will be proseltyzing asses. The same goes for any other religion that's represented here, there more of them there are, the more likely it is that some of them will be asshats.

Except Hindus. They don't proselytize. In fact it's practically impossible to convert to Hinduism.

Bottom line: religious people are far more "pushy" than athiests as a whole, and have been so for much much longer.


The thread ends here.

But the posts go on, I bet.

Only because I wanted to clarify.

Except Hindus. They don't proselytize. In fact it's practically impossible to convert to Hinduism.



Only because I wanted to clarify.

DM can continue to post with impunity, because I <3 him.

I love how this thread is just full of aetheists tooting their own horn and not even answering the question half the time.

I love how this thread is just full of people tooting their own horn and not even answering the question half the time.

Fixed :)

Replying like that shows why you, and so many others, will never resolve this debate.

If you even read back through just two pages of this thread you'll notice the point of that reply and wouldn't have fallen for the very simply point I was making.

No one reads anyone else's points, no one listens to anyone else on this debate, it won't be resolved for millennia to come.

Let me tell you a little secret.

I'm browsing this in a shitty comp at my university. The screen is SO DAMN SMALL I can't see the whole width of the forum. As a result, I've read like 6 or so pages of the thread, half at the start and half at the end... but I haven't read most of the nicknames, because they're fucking offscreen :headbang:

And I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I could end the argument, but that doesn't stop me from posting my own rants XD (adding to the snowball...)

Except Hindus. They don't proselytize. In fact it's practically impossible to convert to Hinduism.
There'll still be asshat hindus if we pack enough of them in here.

I love how this thread is just full of aetheists tooting their own horn and not even answering the question half the time.

Care to point to some examples?

I love how this thread is just full of aetheists tooting their own horn and not even answering the question half the time.

The question was, if I'm reading the OP correctly, why people voice opposing views whenever he'she posts about religion.

The answer (given several times in this thread now) is that this is a discussion forum. If you post something here, people tend to assume you want it discussed and are interested in their opinions and views.

I love how this thread is just full of atheists tooting their own horn and not even answering the question half the time.Well, normally it's the believers who cannot come up with comprehensive answers to the relevant questions. All they ever end up with is saying "but my holy book says so".

Let me tell you a little secret.

I'm browsing this in a shitty comp at my university. The screen is SO DAMN SMALL I can't see the whole width of the forum. As a result, I've read like 6 or so pages of the thread, half at the start and half at the end... but I haven't read most of the nicknames, because they're fucking offscreen :headbang:

And I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I could end the argument, but that doesn't stop me from posting my own rants XD (adding to the snowball...)

Gah, I just can't fucking understand why the hell do you people care so much about religion. Seriously, it puzzles and baffles me every day.

Well then you answered your own question then didn't you? Yes, adding to the snowball :)

Fixed :)

Well yes. xP
But it's only ironic when the aetheists do it.

Well then you answered your own question then didn't you? Yes, adding to the snowball :)

Hey, I don't care about religion.

I care about *discussion* of religion. It's entertaining! :D

Hey, I don't care about religion.

I care about *discussion* of religion. It's entertaining! :D

Why yes, yes it is :)

The question was, if I'm reading the OP correctly, why people voice opposing views whenever he'she posts about religion.

The answer (given several times in this thread now) is that this is a discussion forum. If you post something here, people tend to assume you want it discussed and are interested in their opinions and views.

Actually, I'm pretty sure his point was that it WASN'T opposing views, that it was just meaningless ramblings about how much religion sucks and professing to be aetheist where it doesn't even matter.

Actually, I'm pretty sure his point was that it WASN'T opposing views, that it was just meaningless ramblings about how much religion sucks and professing to be aetheist where it doesn't even matter.the word is atheist :rolleyes:

Hey, I don't care about religion.

I care about *discussion* of religion. It's entertaining! :DBut religious folks are not entertaining, they are pretty boring most of the time. There are never any discussions about details, it's always just "god exists and I believe" blah blah.

the word is atheist :rolleyes:

You say potato, I say aetheist.:rolleyes:

Another bad thing abpout religions is their anti- everything crsap. Specially christioans. Anti-abortion, stemcell reseurce, sex, masturbation, not attending church sends u to hell, not sinning(eve tho its human nature to "sin")

But religious folks are not entertaining, they are pretty boring most of the time. There are never any discussions about details, it's always just "god exists and I believe" blah blah.

Honestly, and I'm atheist 2, but both sides are as boring as each other, the difference is that atheism doesn't intrude, nor affect, our lives

You say potato, I say aetheist.:rolleyes:

Say what you want, but at least try and use the proper spelling.

But religious folks are not entertaining, they are pretty boring most of the time. There are never any discussions about details, it's always just "god exists and I believe" blah blah.

Hey.
That's religious AND STUPID.
Just like any non-religious or not-too-religious AND STUPID person will yield STUPID answers when asked about anything. There are *some* religious fellas who can enter discussion and give interesting view and thoughts about religious and non-religious issues alike. Those guys and gals are cool, I have a couple of friends like that.

You say potato, I say aetheist.:rolleyes:well, then I don't know what you are talking about.

Actually, I'm pretty sure his point was that it WASN'T opposing views, that it was just meaningless ramblings about how much religion sucks and professing to be aetheist where it doesn't even matter.

Funny, that's not what he said.

DM can continue to post with impunity, because I <3 him.

<3 you too. :fluffle:

Wasn't denying it. In fact, I was an asshat Hindu.

Now I'm just an asshat atheist ;)

Just making sure everyone knows that I'm still right. Because being right on the interweb is the most important thing you can do.


That reminds me of a thread I meant to make.

There'll still be asshat hindus if we pack enough of them in here.

Wasn't denying it. In fact, I was an asshat Hindu.

Now I'm just an asshat atheist ;)

You don't half fancy yourself :D
No. Not half. :p


Oh boy, not another one...

Ayup.

Just making sure everyone knows that I'm still right. Because being right on the interweb is the most important thing you can do.

You don't half fancy yourself :D

That reminds me of a thread I meant to make.

Oh boy, not another one...

I think every type of belief has these kinds of people from Christians to Atheists, from Bush haters to Mac lovers. Its something we have to live with, though it can infuriate me sometimes.

For example, my ex-boyfriend. He didn't quite understand why I'd get so upset at him when he talked about " all Christians being hypocritical idiots that know absolutely nothing about science," and "Christians being racist people who hate gays." He'd talk about it every time I saw him. I don't think he understood that was probably not an appropriate thing to say to his girlfriend who is a Christian. He also tended to bring Bush into every argument we ever had, even if it had no relation to the subject matter. It was very annoying.

But, I just needed to get that off my chest.

However, not all atheists are like that. It would be wrong to assume that. It is also wrong to assume that all theists, whether they are Christain, Muslim, or Shinto, are pushy as well.

Not a problem. I can understand the need to unburden.

I find pushy folks everywhere, yeah, and it's just something which which we have no choice but to live.

Alright, no "live and let live," but what happened to "do unto others..."? That's operable on a case by case, personal basis. What I've heard as the outstanding rational arguement on this thread is "they do it, so it's okay for us to do it," reworked in your case into a calm and rational "here, these are the reasons why we attempt to tear down other's beliefs" (the issue of the OP).

I want people to try to "tear down" my beliefs. That's why I come here. I want people to challenge my assumptions and try to pull apart my justifications and my existing belief structure.

I'm doing unto them exactly as I want done unto me.

If my beliefs can't stand up to criticism, I need to get some new beliefs!


I don't expect people will change, and proseltyzing is certainly not the norm, but it'd be nice if at least one atheist would admit that it does happen, occasionally, on this forum.
It'd be even nicer if people like you would admit that atheists DO admit that, all the damn time, and that you're just goofing about with yet another straw man. My posts were a flat-out, clear-cut admission that atheists ARE loud and ARE confrontational. So quit yer crying.

Reasons Why The Resistance Is Needed (Short List):

1) Abstinence-only education ...

<snip> ...

I really, really, really would love to not have to give a shit about superstition. I find it boring and annoying. But I am forced to care, and forced to speak out, because some superstitious people have decided it is their life's mission to get in my way. If you want me to shut up, all you got to do is shut them up.

Well-ranted, kudos.

I think a lot of people confuse atheism and secularism.

When I get loud and uppity with believers, nine times out of ten it is actually because I'm advocating secularism. I want religious laws out of my damn country, because I don't think anybody should be legally required to bow down to any god(s) in any way. I want religious people and religious organizations to be expected to follow the same laws and rules as everybody else. I want the freedom to believe or not believe as I choose.

And you know what? A ton of religious people feel the same damn way.

Perhaps Walt Disney's Peter Pan is partly at fault. While there is scientific evidence that "positive thinking" is actually effective, I suspect that most people oversimplify and get on board that blind faith train of thought to "wish and believe in magic" in order to heal Tinkerbell. Does it matter whether they believe in faery healing, or do they just enjoy clapping for Tink or laying their hands on the radio?

Faery tales, poppycock, and faith. Some people eat a steady diet of white sugar and get hooked on it, become diabetic. Some people depend on having a religion of some kind to tell them what the meaning of life is, and to absolve them of responsibility for thinking and making choices, for deciding what is right and wrong on their own.

Perhaps it's worth considering that "belief" really may equate to "wishful thinking" -- and although some wishful thinking may turn out to be true, perhaps the belief in atheism or secularism is just as clingy and as counterproductive as theist beliefs.

Evidence can displace belief, I say.

There is evidence, for example, that there are disproportionately fewer atheists charged in or convicted of crimes in the USA.

In contrast, there is evidence that there are disproportionately greater numbers of highly religious child molesters.

So, while there is some evidence that, in general, 'those who say they are atheist apparently are better citizens than those who are highly religious' I would resist adopting that as a belief. I'm comfortable waiting for more evidence.

Because my model is that belief is the first step toward faith, and on to delusion. It seems (to me) that "superstition" is just a polite term for "small psychotic break with reality". And that a "faith community" is a polite term for a group of people who enjoy social reinforcement of their delusions....

:rolleyes: At least I am educated in matter of world affairs.

This is the funniest post I've read all week.

This is the funniest post I've read all week.

I lol'd. Pretty hard.

wheres the irony?

I missed out on so many classics on this thread. :(

Goes to show what a RL will get you away from here.

I missed out on so many classics on this thread. :(

Goes to show what a RL will get you away from here.

I missed the first 24+ pages of this thread because of a very enjoyable evening in NY.

Really, I don't feel I missed out on much.

I missed the first 24+ pages of this thread because of a very enjoyable evening in NY.

Really, I don't feel I missed out on much.

I'm pretty sure a "best of" thread would call for a little mod intervention, but an occasional summary might not be out of order. I've done that on occasion myself ... usually involving Corny, come to think of it. :)

NY, eh? A date, or a tour?

I'm pretty sure a "best of" thread would call for a little mod intervention, but an occasional summary might not be out of order. I've done that on occasion myself ... usually involving Corny, come to think of it. :)

NY, eh? A date, or a tour?

Wish it was a date.

Wrestling event, Ring of Honor's first televised show.

Twas a blast.

You say potato, I say aetheist.:rolleyes:
I like this attitude!

"Okay, so I'm wrong. And you've pointed out I'm wrong. But I maintain, firmly, that I AM WRONG! You spell a word one way, I spell it the wrong way! So there!"

Wish it was a date.

Wrestling event, Ring of Honor's first televised show.

Twas a blast.

Did you wave the camera, get a little free press?

Did you wave the camera, get a little free press?

I was 7 rows back on the side where one of the wrestlers got thrown into during the match (and I mean thrown into, not just thrown against the side of the separation between the ring and the seats), and I was standing on a chair with my friends at the time, so I like to thing we got on camera giving one of the wrestlers the finger.

When it comes down to it all people are closed minded idiots to atleast some degree. Naturally this is the same for athiests.

I'm a Christian and though I try not to push my beliefs on people and I do personally repect the beliefs of others it is human nature for people to believe their opinions are somehow superior and air them at every possibility. This includes athiests as a general rule to the same degree, no more or less than anyone else. However some of the most closed-minded, racist excuses for human beings I've had the misfortune of coming across were athiests.

However some of the most closed-minded, racist excuses for human beings I've had the misfortune of coming across were athiests.

Logic Mode:

Which means... that all the rest of the "most closed-minded, racist excuses for human beings I've had the misfortune of coming across"... must have been religious, right?

I'm not really bashing on you here... but atheists just don't have the rigourous institutionalised mission to convert that many religions (and especially Christianity) claim. Sure - people all over think that other people are dumb... but Atheists don't come knock on your door about it.

When it comes down to it all people are closed minded idiots to atleast some degree. Naturally this is the same for athiests.

You are projecting. And it's ATHEIST.

Seriously, you get -10 points every time you incorrectly spell the name of the people you are trying to call "idiots."


I'm a Christian

It shows.

(Okay, sorry, I know it's a cheap shot, but seriously...bad spelling and anti-atheist trolling are like Special Olympic sports for these bozos.)


and though I try not to push my beliefs on people and I do personally repect the beliefs of others it is human nature for people to believe their opinions are somehow superior and air them at every possibility.

No, that's not human nature, seeing as how many of us humans are not remotely interested in airing our personal opinions at every possibility. If you feel compelled to air your personal hangups at every opportunity, regardless of your audience or situation, then you are probably experiencing attacks of what medical professionals have termed "lousy manners."


This includes athiests as a general rule to the same degree, no more or less than anyone else. However some of the most closed-minded, racist excuses for human beings I've had the misfortune of coming across were athiests.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've met mean "athiests."

We've already had somebody helpfully point out that atheists are actually LESS likely to be criminals than non-atheists. Search through federal corrections studies, and you'll find that atheists are less likely to commit hate crimes.

Are some atheists assholes? You bet. Atheists are people, too, and some people are assholes. Being an atheist doesn't magically cure assholishness (just like being religious doesn't, either).

But, statistically speaking, an atheist is far less likely to try to violate your personal freedoms, take your stuff, assault you, kill you, or get laws pass that remove your civil rights than is a "person of faith."

Logic Mode:
Whoa there, Grave. This is a RELIGIOUS thread. Let's have none of that.

I just realized that my hypothesis has been that highly religious people were mostly, like children raised in an insane asylum, just acting on what they'd learned as they grew up. But, thanks to the posters who offered up the comments in this thread, I'm revising my main hypothesis to include the possibility of compulsive belief. Which, I suspect, would and should be covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

I'm guessing for now that true believers are, as some atheists say, social liabilities, trying to push their religious beliefs on all, to legislate their morality. And while a compulsive believer, objectively, can be designated a social liability, that does not mean it's ethical to beat them up for their compulsive belief. No one would think of haranguing a blind person because they believe they are blind, nor would we chastise an alcoholic who sincerely believes s/he has a drinking problem. The fact of the condition is independent of the belief, no matter how compulsive / delusional the beliefs might be.

So I will be looking for compassionate means for dealing with compulsive believers in everyday life.

But, in the meantime, I'm changing the sign at my front gate to read:
Private Property. Compulsive believers / true believers are not welcome, and are hereby denied license to enter this property; entering in violation of this notice is trespassing. THIS MEANS YOU!PS: Trespassers will be shot. No other warning will be issued.

Whoa there, Grave. This is a RELIGIOUS thread. Let's have none of that.

Now now... I do it for the benefit of those who are willing to employ such a toolkit, and you and I both know 'they' have some of those: Dempublicents, Smunkee, Jocabia - all willing to debate religion with an actual application of logic, even if they might disagree with your or I as to what constitutes 'the facts'.

Plus, how can I maintain my high-horse if I don't loudly proclaim my objectivity? :D

Now now... I do it for the benefit of those who are willing to employ such a toolkit, and you and I both know 'they' have some of those: Dempublicents, Smunkee, Jocabia - all willing to debate religion with an actual application of logic, even if they might disagree with your or I as to what constitutes 'the facts'.

Grr, I know, you're right. I just have sooooooooooooo little patience with these threads of late.

"Atheists are mean and loud and going to HELL!"
"No, they're not."
"YEAH-HUH!!!!"

Sigh.


Plus, how can I maintain my high-horse if I don't loudly proclaim my objectivity? :D
I maintain my high horse on a steady diet of ground up trolls. I also recommend the EgoStroker 1000 for all your high horse grooming needs.

Grr, I know, you're right. I just have sooooooooooooo little patience with these threads of late.

"Atheists are mean and loud and going to HELL!"
"No, they're not."
"YEAH-HUH!!!!"

Sigh.


It's always been like that. You are not, however, the first to comment on the apparent lack of worthy competitors on 'that side' of the debate. I've even heard such protestations from 'that side' of the debate.

Maybe the problem is we are all just too good? Both the established 'believer' and the established 'skeptic'? Those of us that have long debated this have reached our conclusions and acomodations with one another. We have a kind of peace. And, though we might differ on the outcome, it is a reasoned peace.

Thus - the voices most likely to be heard in these threads... will probably be those who have a strong motivation to preach, on either side - and those are less likely to be those that have 'found peace'... and thus, less likely to have come to a state of reasoned grace.

When was the last time you heard Jocabia, Smunkee of Dem launch into an 'ebil athiest yr going to hell' sermon? And we have to admit, 'our side' isn't troll free, either.

Crap.

We're grown-ups.


I maintain my high horse on a steady diet of ground up trolls. I also recommend the EgoStroker 1000 for all your high horse grooming needs.

Oh, you can actually use the EgoStroker 1000 for that? Errr.. maybe I should have read the instructions...

Grr, I know, you're right. I just have sooooooooooooo little patience with these threads of late.

"Atheists are mean and loud and going to HELL!"
"No, they're not."
"YEAH-HUH!!!!"

Sigh.


Here's a correction for the thread:

1. SOME <atheists, Christians, etc> are mean and loud and pushy...
2. MOST <atheists, Christians, etc> are not mean and loud and pushy...

It's always been like that. You are not, however, the first to comment on the apparent lack of worthy competitors on 'that side' of the debate. I've even heard such protestations from 'that side' of the debate.

Maybe the problem is we are all just too good? Both the established 'believer' and the established 'skeptic'? Those of us that have long debated this have reached our conclusions and acomodations with one another. We have a kind of peace. And, though we might differ on the outcome, it is a reasoned peace.

Thus - the voices most likely to be heard in these threads... will probably be those who have a strong motivation to preach, on either side - and those are less likely to be those that have 'found peace'... and thus, less likely to have come to a state of reasoned grace.

When was the last time you heard Jocabia, Smunkee of Dem launch into an 'ebil athiest yr going to hell' sermon? And we have to admit, 'our side' isn't troll free, either.

Crap.

We're grown-ups.



Oh, you can actually use the EgoStroker 1000 for that? Errr.. maybe I should have read the instructions...

Ego Fleshlight 1000.

Crap.

We're grown-ups.

Kinda snuck up on you there, didn't it?

Oh, you can actually use the EgoStroker 1000 for that? Errr.. maybe I should have read the instructions...

I shudder at the thought of what you might've been using it for...

It's always been like that. You are not, however, the first to comment on the apparent lack of worthy competitors on 'that side' of the debate. I've even heard such protestations from 'that side' of the debate.

Maybe the problem is we are all just too good? Both the established 'believer' and the established 'skeptic'? Those of us that have long debated this have reached our conclusions and acomodations with one another. We have a kind of peace. And, though we might differ on the outcome, it is a reasoned peace.

Thus - the voices most likely to be heard in these threads... will probably be those who have a strong motivation to preach, on either side - and those are less likely to be those that have 'found peace'... and thus, less likely to have come to a state of reasoned grace.

When was the last time you heard Jocabia, Smunkee of Dem launch into an 'ebil athiest yr going to hell' sermon? And we have to admit, 'our side' isn't troll free, either.

Crap.

We're grown-ups.


The handy thing about lacking religious belief is that I'm not a member of some club based on religious orientation. Lumping me in with all atheists, as if we belong to the same "denomination" of something, would be as silly as lumping me in with all people who like sweet corn.

I touched on this a few posts back:

I'm a secularist. The fact that I'm also an atheist really is only something that people need to care about if they are trying to be my friend or lover (because then they probably should get to know me a bit). As far as all the random folks out there in the world are concerned, my beliefs about secularism are the only ones that will have direct impact.

Plenty of religious people are on "my" side. Some atheists are not on "my" side. Because my side is about secularism, when you get down to it, and not so much about actual atheism.

Oh, you can actually use the EgoStroker 1000 for that? Errr.. maybe I should have read the instructions...
It clearly specifies on the packaging that personal use of the vibrate mode of the EgoStroker 1000 will make Baby Jeebus cry.

Kinda snuck up on you there, didn't it?


All those years of fighting the establishment... and now I am the establishment. :(


I shudder at the thought of what you might've been using it for...

I shudder a.... no, never mind...

*must wash brain*

I'm not entirely religious, nor atheist. Somewhere in the middle, But I just hate it if anyone try to draw me into what they believe. Yep, including relatives. Let people believe in what they want. For me, I don't believe in spreading believes. I won't tell you to see the light, if you see it you see it, if you don't, that's not my problem, and I won't even tell you the light is in front of you. You've gotta see for yourself. Perhaps there isn't a light, and I'm just seeing things.

And I couldn't be bothered to read 40 pages worth of "Damn it, no, it's this! Because blah, blah, blah. No, it's that. Blah, blah, blah."

Very strange thread. As if atheists would have to defend themselves. All that atheists ever do is ask questions that the religious folks fail to answer properly. And repeating questions and insisting on substantial answers may seem pushy, but only to those who have nothing to reply. Most religious folks cannot even describe the details of their beliefs properly or give the reasons and grounds for their beliefs. And after all, it is the religious folks who choose the easy ways in life and in their perspective of the world, as they can always delegate responsibility for their deeds and surrounding event to the 'higher power'.

Very strange thread. As if atheists would have to defend themselves. All that atheists ever do is ask questions that the religious folks fail to answer properly. And repeating questions and insisting on substantial answers may seem pushy, but only to those who have nothing to reply. Most religious folks cannot even describe the details of their beliefs properly or give the reasons and grounds for their beliefs. And after all, it is the religious folks who choose the easy ways in life and in their perspective of the world, as they can always delegate responsibility for their deeds and surrounding event to the 'higher power'.

A very tiny, tiny handful of atheists are actually overt assholes.

A very tiny, tiny handful of atheists are actually overt assholes.

Oh don't be so nice. Plenty of atheists are overt assholes. Plenty of people who believe in <insert religion> are overt assholes.

Big. Fucking. Deal.

A very tiny, tiny handful of atheists are actually overt assholes.In sharp contrast to religious folks, as least of the abrahamic religions, where the vast majority are overt assholes. Ever thought about that correlation?

What I find strange about the whole concept of atheists being pushy is that, from what I've had the attention-span to read, very little has been said about how much of this pushing is simply pushing and how much is pushing back.

Oh don't be so nice. Plenty of atheists are overt assholes. Plenty of people who believe in <insert religion> are overt assholes.

Big. Fucking. Deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3YElLVMjEs

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3YElLVMjEs

:D

I love that film!

Yes but atheism isn't a religion in the general sense, it is an acceptance of what we already know for sure about the divine, nothing.
Christianity on the other hand offers itself as special knowledge of the divine, for which they offer no evidence of.

I may be wrong, but I thought athiesm was the assertion that there is no god, or divine force. If you have somehow managed to prove that, I would like to know how.

Granted, we can't give you any solid facts or evidence. I accept that certainty of uncertainty.

I may be wrong, but I thought athiesm was the assertion that there is no god, or divine force. If you have somehow managed to prove that, I would like to know how.

Granted, we can't give you any solid facts or evidence. I accept that certainty of uncertainty.

Strong/Positive Atheism: belief in no god.

Weak/Negative Atheism: no belief in god.

I don't think there's proof, but I do think there's some evidence for the non-existence of god.

Very strange thread. As if atheists would have to defend themselves. All that atheists ever do is ask questions that the religious folks fail to answer properly. And repeating questions and insisting on substantial answers may seem pushy, but only to those who have nothing to reply. Most religious folks cannot even describe the details of their beliefs properly or give the reasons and grounds for their beliefs. And after all, it is the religious folks who choose the easy ways in life and in their perspective of the world, as they can always delegate responsibility for their deeds and surrounding event to the 'higher power'.
*applause*

this got really long and off topic

what i was getting at is that alot of Atheists complain about how religions are pushing their beliefs on them

yet they do it to religious people, with out any idea that they are doing what they complained about

this got really long and off topic

what i was getting at is that alot of Atheists complain about how religions are pushing their beliefs on them

yet they do it to religious people, with out any idea that they are doing what they complained aboutAgain, it's called pushing back. More commonly known as defending what you believe.

Strong/Positive Atheism: belief in no god.

Weak/Negative Atheism: no belief in god.

I don't think there's proof, but I do think there's some evidence for the non-existence of god.

Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in god. Whether the atheist further holds that there is no god (as opposed to simply being uncertain) doesn't change the fact that both are atheists.

Athiests who hold no belief one way are the other are materially different from both theists and strong atheists, in that they hold a logically defensible position, and thus are quite able to ask hard questions of theists and happily sit back knowing there aren't answers.

this got really long and off topic

what i was getting at is that alot of Atheists complain about how religions are pushing their beliefs on them

yet they do it to religious people, with out any idea that they are doing what they complained about

Except that we don't, unless provoked. Seriously--is there an atheist version of the Jehovah's Witnesses that's going to come to your house on Saturday morning with copies of The God Delusion? When that sort of thing starts to happen, then you'll have cause to compare atheists to pushy religious people.

@OP:
I know the feeling. Acculy awhile ago the topic of my belifes came up, and my atheists friend became hell bent on converting me to "convert". After a few mounths, the fact he wouldn't shut up about it drove me away. I've never talked to him agien for more then a year.

I never tryed converting him, I've never tried converting anyone, caues it's there choess what they belive in. But I couldn't stand being around him any more.

It's funny how some atheists complain that religon only creates nuts, when they, them selfs end up become a "Religoues nut" them self.

------
Edit:
@The Nazz:
Lawl, that's bassicly what my ex-friend was.

i'm talking trying to change my beliefs in a non-pushing back way
I often make a non pushy comment and yet my beliefs are still insulted

i'm talking trying to change my beliefs in a non-pushing back way
I often make a non pushy comment and yet my beliefs are still insulted

Not to be insulting, but have you ever considered that maybe you're a little too sensitive on the subject? Your beliefs can't be insulted--they don't feel anything. It's you who are feeling insulted for them--so if you let it roll off your back, maybe part of the problem disappears.

Athiests who hold no belief one way are the other are materially different from both theists and strong atheists, in that they hold a logically defensible position, and thus are quite able to ask hard questions of theists and happily sit back knowing there aren't answers.

If you don't stand for anything, you don't stand for anything ..If you don't stand for something you don't stand for anything.

I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions.

Heh.

Whew.... I just read the whole of this thread.... I'm off for a cup of tea and a nap....

Originally Posted by Llewdor View Post
Athiests who hold no belief one way are the other are materially different from both theists and strong atheists, in that they hold a logically defensible position, and thus are quite able to ask hard questions of theists and happily sit back knowing there aren't answers.


There are also no proof against there beliefs

It could appear to be one way but be the other
You have no proof that god does not exist

Originally Posted by Llewdor View Post
Athiests who hold no belief one way are the other are materially different from both theists and strong atheists, in that they hold a logically defensible position, and thus are quite able to ask hard questions of theists and happily sit back knowing there aren't answers.


There are also no proof against there beliefs

It could appear to be one way but be the other
You have no proof that god does not exist

Just as you have no proof that he does :D

yes i have no proof he does

therefore they are beliefs
Why do atheist act like they have proof when they don't?

Both arguments are just beliefs

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?
Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.

And Whats with people sounding off that they are atheist for no reason?
A recent thread asked people whether they lieing was a sin.
Now, sin is a commonly accepeted word for a bad thing.
But many atheists decide to post saying they couldn't answer the question because they didn't think it exist or they didn't believe in it.
Those post added no value to the thread. Did they really need to toot their own horn and announce their beliefs?

It's just you...

No one else is stunned by the number of lurkers this thread smoked out?

No one else is stunned by the number of lurkers this thread smoked out?

If you light fire to enough rocks, you can smoke 'em out because then they have no where to hide. Simple really.

There are also no proof against there beliefs

It could appear to be one way but be the other
You have no proof that god does not exist

This has already come up several times. There may not be proof (although some people argue that the definition of God is self-contradicting or that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of God in the classical sense) but there is plenty of evidence. Proof is for mathematics and alcohol.

... although some people argue that the definition of God is self-contradicting...
That is, of course, the problem. God is generally not well defined. Proof or disproof would be possible given a definition of it.

That is, of course, the problem. God is generally not well defined. Proof or disproof would be possible given a definition of it.

Agreed. The classical Judeo-Christian God can be disproved to a reasonable degree of certainty, the impersonal watchmaker God of Enlightenment intellectuals is much harder to disprove, and Pascal's conception of an omnipotent being who's doing his utmost to avoid detection is pretty much impossible to disprove.

Agreed. The classical Judeo-Christian God can be disproved to a reasonable degree of certainty, the impersonal watchmaker God of Enlightenment intellectuals is much harder to disprove, and Pascal's conception of an omnipotent being who's doing his utmost to avoid detection is pretty much impossible to disprove.

he should try harder then :D

Originally Posted by Llewdor View Post
Athiests who hold no belief one way are the other are materially different from both theists and strong atheists, in that they hold a logically defensible position, and thus are quite able to ask hard questions of theists and happily sit back knowing there aren't answers.


There are also no proof against there beliefs

It could appear to be one way but be the other
You have no proof that god does not exist
Which is why I don't assert that god does not exist.

In the complete absence of evidence for or against the existence of god, the only rational position is the believe neither position.

Theists are unable to justify their position. I can justify mine.

yes i have no proof he does

therefore they are beliefs
Why do atheist act like they have proof when they don't?

Both arguments are just beliefs

I feel like I should save this in a document somewhere just so I don't have to retype it every time someone makes the same argument.

An atheist doesn't have to prove God's lack of existence. That's not the way logic works. Your standard atheist basically says "until there's positive proof of a God or Gods, there's no reason to believe in them." The difference may be subtle, but it is there nonetheless. If your standard atheist is provided with empirical proof of a god or gods' existence, said atheist will likely change his point of view, since all he's looking for is evidence. But in the absence of evidence, there's no reason to believe in that being's existence.

yes i have no proof he does

therefore they are beliefs
Why do atheist act like they have proof when they don't?

Both arguments are just beliefs

You're incorrectly assuming an excluded middle (a very common mistake, I might add). You're acting as if you must either believe that "God exists" or that "God doesn't exist", and there's no other option.

But that's just not true. It's possible to hold neither opinion.

What is so "unreliable" about the Bible? I think you just don't want to believe it because it sets forth an all-knowing, all-powerful GOD who has standards of right and wrong, and holds people accountable to Him for their behavior, and you insist on living however you want to live without fear of any consequences for it.

I submit that your problem with the Bible is not historical or scientific; it is MORAL.

I can only speak for myself, but I will admit that, yes, I have moral problems with the bible. One of which is that God doesn't seem to have any standards of right and wrong.

This can be demonstrated in the story of Job.

Here's this guy, this devout, righteous man, living a sinless life.
Along comes the devil, chatting to his good buddy God, saying, "Hey, I bet you I can get him to renounce you."

What does God say? "No, thou shalt not be permitted to bedevil my flock!"? No, he says, "You're on. Do what you like to him, and his family."

Hmmm.

So the devil goes to work, devising all manner of tortures for the poor sap, including the deaths of his entire family.

So, when Job finally has enough and, weeping and covered in sores and boils, gets a bit miffed, God appears in a huff and has the sheer fucking audacity to demand an apology.

Standards of right and wrong my ass.

PS: The Bible is unreliable because it was compiled by men (see: The council of Nicea), out of stories recorded by men, of tales passed down verbally by men.

And I, for one, have never seen an atheist in the town square extolling their beliefs with a megaphone.

You're incorrectly assuming an excluded middle (a very common mistake, I might add). You're acting as if you must either believe that "God exists" or that "God doesn't exist", and there's no other option.

But that's just not true. It's possible to hold neither opinion.

Or that is just doesn't really matter. To coin a term, Apathetic Athiesm.

Yes but atheism isn't a religion in the general sense, it is an acceptance of what we already know for sure about the divine, nothing.

Christianity on the other hand offers itself as special knowledge of the divine, for which they offer no evidence of.
I may be wrong, but I thought athiesm was the assertion that there is no god, or divine force. If you have somehow managed to prove that, I would like to know how.

Granted, we can't give you any solid facts or evidence. I accept that certainty of uncertainty.

Seems to me that Andaras Prime didn't say anything about any kind of proof, he just stated we know nothing about the divine.

Off topic side info that may or may not apply to the thread:
Some atheists, called weak atheists by some, have a lack of a belief, while so-called strong atheists hold the belief in a lack.

@OP
In my opinion, since you asked, the atheist minority in the U.S. is in a far different position than you as part of the Christian majority. In part because often in little communities there is no place for atheism due to the hold that Christianity has on this country. Crime is often blamed on the godlessness of our country, while I see that the vast majority are religious-minded folk, and ask how? Evidence provided by Bottle suggests that atheists are not in fact to blame, and so the "godlessness" of our country isn't true to the word (sorry for the semantics, just a segway people, jeez) but rather a form of Not-Our-God type of godlessness, and therefore is easier to create an us vs. them mentality which can be so very dangerous to minorities.

As a part of the minority, I can say that rather than pick on poor Christians who have just been deceived into joining the "wrong" branch, it seems as if atheists have been singled out somewhat. My religious orientation, or not cannot be noted on government forms. I ended up placing No Religious Preference on my dog tags because I didn't feel that any of the listed religions really fit me as a person. In fact, I hardly ever meet other atheists in RL, as some would call it, most people I meet are undefinable theists, or Christians of some denomination or other.

Damn.

I didn't mean to ramble, my objective in posting a reply has been foiled, other than to nitpick at Widfarend. I guess I accomplished that though, small comforts. ;)

I can only speak for myself, but I will admit that, yes, I have moral problems with the bible. One of which is that God doesn't seem to have any standards of right and wrong.

This can be demonstrated in the story of Job.

Here's this guy, this devout, righteous man, living a sinless life.
Along comes the devil, chatting to his good buddy God, saying, "Hey, I bet you I can get him to renounce you."

What does God say? "No, thou shalt not be permitted to bedevil my flock!"? No, he says, "You're on. Do what you like to him, and his family."

Hmmm.

So the devil goes to work, devising all manner of tortures for the poor sap, including the deaths of his entire family.

So, when Job finally has enough and, weeping and covered in sores and boils, gets a bit miffed, God appears in a huff and has the sheer fucking audacity to demand an apology.

Standards of right and wrong my ass.

PS: The Bible is unreliable because it was compiled by men (see: The council of Nicea), out of stories recorded by men, of tales passed down verbally by men.

And I, for one, have never seen an atheist in the town square extolling their beliefs with a megaphone.
Just passin' through, and thought i'd say howdy, Batuni. *bows*

Not to be insulting, but have you ever considered that maybe you're a little too sensitive on the subject? Your beliefs can't be insulted--they don't feel anything. It's you who are feeling insulted for them--so if you let it roll off your back, maybe part of the problem disappears.
THANK YOU.

I can't count the number of times I hear people bitching about how their "values" or "beliefs" are being insulted.

Your values, your beliefs, your opinions do not have feelings. They cannot experience insult or harm for themselves. You, personally, may feel insulted when somebody challenges you or criticizes your beliefs, but use the right pronoun when you talk about it.

Ideas SHOULD be criticized. Even good ideas. Hell, ESPECIALLY good ideas. That's how you figure out which ideas really are good ones: if they can stand up to serious, thoughtful criticism. Ideas don't feel bad about being criticized. Ideas do not have feelings. "Christianity" does not have feelings.

That is, of course, the problem. God is generally not well defined. Proof or disproof would be possible given a definition of it.

Heheh I beg to differ. I could go and find ya several hundered defintions of what God is. But I think 'Ikonkar' is sufficient!

Muuuhahhhahhahahhaha:D

Heheh I beg to differ. I could go and find ya several hundered defintions of what God is. But I think 'Ikonkar' is sufficient!

Muuuhahhhahhahahhaha:D

Silly, silly, Sikh. (alliteration!) :p

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?
Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.

And Whats with people sounding off that they are atheist for no reason?
A recent thread asked people whether they lieing was a sin.
Now, sin is a commonly accepeted word for a bad thing.
But many atheists decide to post saying they couldn't answer the question because they didn't think it exist or they didn't believe in it.
Those post added no value to the thread. Did they really need to toot their own horn and announce their beliefs?

okaaay... where i come from this seems to happen most with christians - we have street preachers who come and try to force their beliefs on you and say that you are sinner and are going to go to hell (they said tyhis to someone who happened to be a christina). there is also a church that has a small billboard-type thing that is regularly updated with new messages making out that god is a bad thing.

THANK YOU.

I can't count the number of times I hear people bitching about how their "values" or "beliefs" are being insulted.

Your values, your beliefs, your opinions do not have feelings. They cannot experience insult or harm for themselves. You, personally, may feel insulted when somebody challenges you or criticizes your beliefs, but use the right pronoun when you talk about it.

Ideas SHOULD be criticized. Even good ideas. Hell, ESPECIALLY good ideas. That's how you figure out which ideas really are good ones: if they can stand up to serious, thoughtful criticism. Ideas don't feel bad about being criticized. Ideas do not have feelings. "Christianity" does not have feelings.

Hey nice, I was talking about this very thing a while back. My conclusion was that iveribly it is human pride is hurt and thus people take insult on board where there really is no need.

The power of insult lies squarely in the hands of the insultee, and not the insulter, as The Nass says. It is then easy to turn the insult back towards the insulter, just choose not to be effected.

i'm talking trying to change my beliefs in a non-pushing back way
I often make a non pushy comment and yet my beliefs are still insultedA belief cannot be insulted. However, expression of belief without further substantiating the claims contained in the respective belief is insulting. It is insulting to those who are seeking real answers and only get superficial religious drooling as replies. It is an insult to human intellect.

Yes you ARE (maybe not ALL of you, but definitely SOME - in fact TOO MANY - of you)

so you are saying that there are too many atheists

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?
Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.

And Whats with people sounding off that they are atheist for no reason?
A recent thread asked people whether they lieing was a sin.
Now, sin is a commonly accepeted word for a bad thing.
But many atheists decide to post saying they couldn't answer the question because they didn't think it exist or they didn't believe in it.
Those post added no value to the thread. Did they really need to toot their own horn and announce their beliefs?

No more or less than you do, apparently.

I feel like I should save this in a document somewhere just so I don't have to retype it every time someone makes the same argument.

An atheist doesn't have to prove God's lack of existence. That's not the way logic works. Your standard atheist basically says "until there's positive proof of a God or Gods, there's no reason to believe in them." The difference may be subtle, but it is there nonetheless. If your standard atheist is provided with empirical proof of a god or gods' existence, said atheist will likely change his point of view, since all he's looking for is evidence. But in the absence of evidence, there's no reason to believe in that being's existence.

wich doesn't mean that he'll become a believer, of course (after all, if there is PROOF that god exists, you don't need to believe in him)... ;)

No, that's not true. I've had four years of Catholic education, and I can assure you that the Pope does not shit. BEARS shit (in the woods), the Pope just wears a funny hat.

That's why the hats get bigger as you ascend the hierarchy. You shit less, and that stuff has to go SOMEwhere....

wich doesn't mean that he'll become a believer, of course (after all, if there is PROOF that god exists, you don't need to believe in him)... ;)

True. If you're like me, you're liable to try to communicate with said God and ask why He's been such a dick, and how he can justify his actions over the past few millenia.

True. If you're like me, you're liable to try to communicate with said God and ask why He's been such a dick, and how he can justify his actions over the past few millenia.

"Well, I knew the age of science would come along. And people would want concrete evidence that man was naturally sinful - after all, they weren't going to take the Bible as anything except a poorly translated story book. So I gave them free will, and they proceeded to fuck each other over really hard for a few thousand years..."

"Well, I knew the age of science would come along. And people would want concrete evidence that man was naturally sinful - after all, they weren't going to take the Bible as anything except a poorly translated story book. So I gave them free will, and they proceeded to fuck each other over really hard for a few thousand years..."

Ah--if only most Christians really looked at the Bible as a poorly translated story book instead of as a guide for daily living. Maybe we'd have a little less shit to clean up on this planet.

Ah--if only most Christians really looked at the Bible as a poorly translated story book instead of as a guide for daily living. Maybe we'd have a little less shit to clean up on this planet.

I'd rather not have to rely on translations over the years, and I do believe that the book contains a lot of general ideas that are good for daily living.

However, I'm not big on pointing to specific lines in specific translations and trying to make claims that we should be stoning gays and not eating shellfish.

I also have little use for the Old Testament in general, although some of the battles depicted in the Old Testament really happened, so I suppose there is some historical or archaeological value there.

I'd rather not have to rely on translations over the years, and I do believe that the book contains a lot of general ideas that are good for daily living.

However, I'm not big on pointing to specific lines in specific translations and trying to make claims that we should be stoning gays and not eating shellfish.

I also have little use for the Old Testament in general, although some of the battles depicted in the Old Testament really happened, so I suppose there is some historical or archaeological value there.

The generally good ideas it contains are the same in spirit as those contained in the Vedas and the Bhagavad-Gita and other ancient writings--they're not unique to the Bible. It's the othering stuff that is problematic in my view, and that's what too many sects of Christianity like to focus on for my taste.

The generally good ideas it contains are the same in spirit as those contained in the Vedas and the Bhagavad-Gita and other ancient writings--they're not unique to the Bible. It's the othering stuff that is problematic in my view, and that's what too many sects of Christianity like to focus on for my taste.

Well, we could all be wrong in various ways. For the atheists, depending on how wrong they are, it would be a shock. And for Christians (of all the varieties) I'm sure they'll be disappointed if there's some other variant of the afterlife that fails to confirm specific aspects of their beliefs.

But I am sure that every religion will get its surprise.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/MercyBC/nunsinheaven.jpg

I'd rather not have to rely on translations over the years, and I do believe that the book contains a lot of general ideas that are good for daily living.

However, I'm not big on pointing to specific lines in specific translations and trying to make claims that we should be stoning gays and not eating shellfish.

I also have little use for the Old Testament in general, although some of the battles depicted in the Old Testament really happened, so I suppose there is some historical or archaeological value there.But the Jesus does not reject what the Old Testament says. In fact, in his transfiguration, he demonstrates the (his) continuity with the old law and prophecies by having Moses and Elijah appear.

But the Jesus does not reject what the Old Testament says. In fact, in his transfiguration, he demonstrates the (his) continuity with the old law and prophecies by having Moses and Elijah appear.

pretty much accurate.

But the Jesus does not reject what the Old Testament says. In fact, in his transfiguration, he demonstrates the (his) continuity with the old law and prophecies by having Moses and Elijah appear.

This is what I mean by obsessing about the details.

This is what I mean by obsessing about the details.

Aren't the details important to most Christians? They're matters of heaven and hell to most fundamentalists at least.

Aren't the details important to most Christians? They're matters of heaven and hell to most fundamentalists at least.

Take your New Testament.

Now, only take what Jesus said - the words in red in common Bibles.

Dispense with the rest.

It reduces itself to a rather simple formula. It also removes the excessive interpretation of Paul, all of the Old Testament, and gets you into Heaven without having to wind yourself up in a knot keeping the details straight.

It also is the message He came to deliver - that we didn't have to be focusing on the claptrap and the details - that there was a simpler way to live a happier life, and get to Heaven. And the powers that be at the time nailed him to a tree because he was bad for their business...

This is what I mean by obsessing about the details.That's not a detail, that's a pretty broad stroke.
And after all, the only scripture that Jesus ever referred to was what is now the Old Testament. He was a devout Jew.

That's not a detail, that's a pretty broad stroke.

Show me where Jesus said I have to listen to what Paul said.

Show me where Jesus said I have to listen to what Paul said.Paul does not appear in the Old Testament, does he?

Show me where Jesus said I have to listen to what Paul said.

Didn't he put Paul in charge of his church? Or was that Peter...

Didn't he put Paul in charge of his church? Or was that Peter...oh boy
:rolleyes:

so you are saying that there are too many atheists

Given the common attitude among Christian fundies that even one atheist is one atheist too many... yeah, I'd say you're right.

Take your New Testament.

Now, only take what Jesus said - the words in red in common Bibles.

Dispense with the rest.

It reduces itself to a rather simple formula. It also removes the excessive interpretation of Paul, all of the Old Testament, and gets you into Heaven without having to wind yourself up in a knot keeping the details straight.

It also is the message He came to deliver - that we didn't have to be focusing on the claptrap and the details - that there was a simpler way to live a happier life, and get to Heaven. And the powers that be at the time nailed him to a tree because he was bad for their business...

O_O

Sweet baby Jesus. You must be the first Christian I've *ever* heard say that what Jesus said is the important thing, not all the crap that surrounds it in the Bible.

I love you.

Didn't he put Paul in charge of his church? Or was that Peter...

Paul came along waaaay after Jesus was nailed up.

Case in point.

Compared to the disgusting filth like this that is spewed daily by religious people, all the militancy of atheists is nothing. We don't maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in our theological doctrines.

I believe that if you are a good person you get to go to heaven!

:upyours: :mad: :gundge: :mp5: :sniper: <--- Do not go to heaven!

Paul came along waaaay after Jesus was nailed up.

Yes, but there's the whole story about Jesus (in heaven) converting Paul on the road to Damascus. The early churches certainly recognized Paul as an apostle.

O_O

Sweet baby Jesus. You must be the first Christian I've *ever* heard say that what Jesus said is the important thing, not all the crap that surrounds it in the Bible.

I love you.

Yeah, thats why I'm not Roman Catholic.

I don't care what you are, Atheist, Jewish, Bigtopian... Screw you and go to hell!

But seriously, I don't care. God gave us the power of free will, and you are exercising that power to the fullest! :)

personaly i think its guys like corny who give guys like me a bad name,

i mean not all christians are hard nose kill all the bad guys, people, most are kind understanding people, and it hurts me to see this reaction towards christianity, allbiat many of the remarks are true thats why they hurt is people HATE US BECAUSE THEY THINK WE HATE THEM!

we dont hate you, hell according to the bible i cant hate any one, even france, so hey, just try to keep generalizations to a minimum k?

personaly i think its guys like corny who give guys like me a bad name,...No. Christianity does that.

personaly i think its guys like corny who give guys like me a bad name

LIke you huh? Excuse me for believing in the literal interpretation of the Bible when appropriate.

i mean not all christians are hard nose kill all the bad guys, people, most are kind understanding people, and it hurts me to see this reaction towards christianity, allbiat many of the remarks are true thats why they hurt is people HATE US BECAUSE THEY THINK WE HATE THEM!

And most of us do not hate people because they are not christians. I don't. I prefer to save them. I just given up on the people here and sooner or later, you will too.

we dont hate you, hell according to the bible i cant hate any one, even france, so hey, just try to keep generalizations to a minimum k?

I could not agree with you more.

No. Christianity does that.

And its people like you who give europeans a bad name.

LIke you huh? Excuse me for believing in the literal interpretation of the Bible when appropriate.

When precisely is that appropriate? Just some broad parameters, if you don't mind. I mean, I know where you stand on the whole "atheists are going to hell" bit, but where's the line between literal and symbolic?

When precisely is that appropriate? Just some broad parameters, if you don't mind. I mean, I know where you stand on the whole "atheists are going to hell" bit, but where's the line between literal and symbolic?

The BOok of Revelation is symbolic. There is also symbolism in the Book of Daniel as well. Let us also look at Joseph's dreams and those of Pharoe's.

The BOok of Revelation is symbolic. There is also symbolism in the Book of Daniel as well. Let us also look at Joseph's dreams and those of Pharoe's.
That's your personal interpretation.

No where in the bible, it states that you should take certain parts literal and some symbolic.

In other words, your view of the bible is nothing more then wishfull thinking and interpretation.

That's your personal interpretation.

No where in the bible, it states that you should take certain parts literal and some symbolic.

In other words, your view of the bible is nothing more then wishfull thinking and interpretation.Nowhere in the bible is there a commandment against figurative interpretations, unless you are willing to interpret a few passages figuratively:p
Nowhere in the bible is there a passage that says that you can drive a car and go online to play nationstates:rolleyes:

You should take a look at Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible. It's an indispensable companion book to 'the good book.'

There are also no proof against there beliefs

It could appear to be one way but be the other
You have no proof that god does not exist

Must we prove a negative now? Need I remind you that such is impossible. As an agnostic (not an atheistic) I find that the question of God(s) or Goddess(es) is irrelevant to my everyday life. I don't need a biblical commandment to tell me how to live my life.

EDIT: The Six-Hundred-Sixty-Sixth post!!!!

*starts singing and air-guitaring to Iron Maiden's The Number of the Beast*

I just given up on the people here and sooner or later, you will too.

Oh I don't know, s/he might be capable of logical argument rather than simply making assertions...

O_O

Sweet baby Jesus. You must be the first Christian I've *ever* heard say that what Jesus said is the important thing, not all the crap that surrounds it in the Bible.

I love you.

Actually, Jocabia has been saying almost those exact words for at least a year, and Smunkee has suggested that Paul might not be as relevent as some suggest. We do have a couple of Christians that focus on the Christ bit.

In other words, your view of the bible is nothing more then wishfull thinking and interpretation.

Does anyone have one of the old Palladium roleplaying books with the disclaimer?

Maybe we should get one of those on the Bible.

Must we prove a negative now? Need I remind you that such is impossible. As an agnostic (not an atheistic) I find that the question of God(s) or Goddess(es) is irrelevant to my everyday life. I don't need a biblical commandment to tell me how to live my life.

EDIT: The Six-Hundred-Sixty-Sixth post!!!!

*starts singing and air-guitaring to Iron Maiden's The Number of the Beast*
Still you are an atheist(In popular terms, a weak one), simply because you cant answer you do believe or you dont. You can answer by saying that you dont know if you believe, but it's pretty obvious how rediculous that is.
Must we prove a negative now? Need I remind you that such is impossible. As an agnostic (not an atheistic) I find that the question of God(s) or Goddess(es) is irrelevant to my everyday life. I don't need a biblical commandment to tell me how to live my life.

EDIT: The Six-Hundred-Sixty-Sixth post!!!!

*starts singing and air-guitaring to Iron Maiden's The Number of the Beast*

Nowhere in the bible is there a commandment against figurative interpretations, unless you are willing to interpret a few passages figuratively:p
Nowhere in the bible is there a passage that says that you can drive a car and go online to play nationstates:rolleyes:

You should take a look at Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible. It's an indispensable companion book to 'the good book.'
I dont care if even the best historian on this subject would write a book about it. It stay interpertation, doesnt matter how you name it, see it or think about it.