NationStates Jolt Archive

Are you going to respond to anyone or are you just going to carry on spouting nonsense to yourself?

Er, mate , its all string theory reserch! It was on "Horizon" about 3 yrs ago. Its utterly fuckin weird but is now cosidered to be the true explanation of the cosmos! And you thought you were so fuckin' smart! HA HA!

Er, did'nt The athiest Soviet Union drag us thru 40 years of cold war?

Don't you mean: didn't the Christian USA drag the world through 40 years of Cold War? See, works both ways.

Er, mate , its all string theory reserch! It was on "Horizon" about 3 yrs ago. Its utterly fuckin weird but is now cosidered to be the true explanation of the cosmos! And you thought you were so fuckin' smart! HA HA!

"String Theory" is not universally accepted, even in scientific circles. The simple fact that it was 'on Horizon' a few years ago neither makes it true, nor universal.

Er, did'nt The athiest Soviet Union drag us thru 40 years of cold war?

Would you like to try reading that again? I'll bold it to help you:

Oh really? When was the last time somebody flew a plane into a building in the name of Athe, or blew up an abortion clinic because they felt it was what 'nothing' wanted them to do?

We're not talking about atrocities committed by atheists or believers, we're talking about atrocities inspired by religion or atheism. Stalin had a mustache, as did Hitler, but that doesn't mean that Naziism or Soviet-style Communism were inspired by mustaches now does it?

Wrong proof exist. I guarantee if you take a 9mm in perfect operational condition load it and stick to your head and pull the trigger your brains will fly out the other side of your head. Cause and effect do exist it is not dependent on what we think. You can think anything you want but that bullet will go threw your brain and out the other side of your head. The laws of the universe are beyond our perception.

That's just because generations of violent films have instilled the human psyche with the belief that guns will kills you. Some people know differently. The NRA for instance.

It does matter what you believe. But it also matters what everyone else believes. Some people have more belief than others and it takes more belief from others to overcome that belief.

e.g. as more people begin to oppose the war in Iraq, it is going more and more badly. That's why the administration has spent so much more effort on controlling US public opinion than it has on things like properly training the troops or giving them proper equipment. They knew that belief was a bigger determining factor.

That's what this whole "scientific method" thing is really about. It's not about finding out if something works. It's about coming up with an explanation to make people believe it so that it will work.

Don't believe me? Got to an ATM and wait for an old lady to use it. She'll put her card in just like everyone else, but for her it will take several tries because she doesn't believe ATM's will work. At least not for her.

It's also why old people have so much trouble with computers. People who learned to use computers 40 years ago still wonder how a computer can work without vacuum tubes. Just look at Ted Stevens. The Republican most qualified to chair the committee that handled affairs involving technology, and he still thinks that computers are run on tubes. Were he more devout in his belief from the beginning, then no doubt computers would still run on tubes.

Er, did'nt The athiest Soviet Union drag us thru 40 years of cold war?

No.

ER,yeah! That why they stuck so many priests in thr gulags!

Funny, that. So did the Nazis, despite the fact that their leaders were staunch practising Christians...
You might want to read up a bit about the Sovjet Union before making a fool of yourself here.

Would you like to try reading that again? I'll bold it to help you:



We're not talking about atrocities committed by atheists or believers, we're talking about atrocities inspired by religion or atheism. Stalin had a mustache, as did Hitler, but that doesn't mean that Naziism or Soviet-style Communism were inspired by mustaches now does it?


The mysteries of correlation vs. causality.

Er, mate , its all string theory reserch! It was on "Horizon" about 3 yrs ago. Its utterly fuckin weird but is now cosidered to be the true explanation of the cosmos! And you thought you were so fuckin' smart! HA HA!

What are you, ten years old? You clearly don't understand branes and 'science' isn't universally behind them (some scientists don't even regard string theory as science). I was refering to your warped understanding of 'atheism' as nonsense.

What are you, ten years old? You clearly don't understand branes and 'science' isn't universally behind them (some scientists don't even regard string theory as science). I was refering to your warped understanding of 'atheism' as nonsense.

Bolded for emphasis.

While I find ideas like 'String Theory' interesting, I don't think they meet the rigours required to be considered truly scientific. The strict order of observation of phenomena, attempt to explain the mechanism, and then 'testing the hypothesis' cannot really be employed for such 'theoretical' pursuits... so I'm not convinced they can ever count as truly 'scientific'.

At this stage of scientific advancement, I have similar qualms about Dark Matter and Super-Massive-Blackholes.

Look you dont need to understand science to be an atheist. I dont know any science, you just need to believe that religion and religious logic is flawed. Or rather there isnt enough proof to believe in one.

As I say we are all born as atheists and take up a religion later, so if we do not have enough reason to take up a religion we dont. Simple as that.

All those atheists that are atheists because 'its cool' are just idiots mostly. Their probably only doing it to rebel against their religious surroundings or to look less needy. They are the ones that rely on science for everything usually.

Me, I am perfectly willing to accept we do not know some of the answers yet, and I see no need to run to religion to try and find them.

The mysteries of correlation vs. causality.

Probably my favourite logical fallacy. How else could you prove that all firefighters are arsonists? :p

Bolded for emphasis.

While I find ideas like 'String Theory' interesting, I don't think they meet the rigours required to be considered truly scientific. The strict order of observation of phenomena, attempt to explain the mechanism, and then 'testing the hypothesis' cannot really be employed for such 'theoretical' pursuits... so I'm not convinced they can ever count as truly 'scientific'.

Agreed (based on my limited knowledge of physics).

At this stage of scientific advancement, I have similar qualms about Dark Matter and Super-Massive-Blackholes.

I think I remember hearing that a way's been found to detect some kinds of Dark Matter directly, rather than through the effect of its gravity. I'll see if I can find it.

You wanna find out if "god" really exists? Put a .50 cal to your head and pull the trigger. I'm agnostic. but at least I'm not annoying like those damn god love'in christans!

Er, mate , its all string theory reserch! It was on "Horizon" about 3 yrs ago. Its utterly fuckin weird but is now cosidered to be the true explanation of the cosmos! And you thought you were so fuckin' smart! HA HA!

Too bad what you described was actually M Theory.

It's called a "debate"; grow a thicker skin or leave. Just don't let the door hit you on the way out.

No; it's really, really not... The people on these boards are the worst "debaters" I've ever seen.

Well, I am in favour of pushing atheism, but not in the violent, oppressive way that religions like to spread.

Well, I am in favour of pushing atheism, but not in the violent, oppressive way that religions like to spread.Why not? Atheism means using one's own brains to think. Forcing people to think cannot be a bad thing.

Why not? Atheism means using one's own brains to think. Forcing people to think cannot be a bad thing.
Let's put it this way - if you made anyone think about the whole of the world, all of its people, all of their circumstances, how they fit together, the structure of the world itself and everything in the universe, including its creation, their brain would explode.

Yet this is what atheism essentially is by your definition.

Let people think what they want, it's for the best.

No need to make people confused, especially those who have traditionally conformed to one faith or another from their upbringing. That's bound to cause trouble.

Why not? Atheism means using one's own brains to think. Forcing people to think cannot be a bad thing.

1. Lead by example. Want to spread a compassionate, conscientious form of anti-religion.
2. Would be hypocritical to use the same methods.
3. Unlikely to succeed - people would just pretend to be atheist out of fear.

I call bullshit. Either you've never heard of Buddhists, or you're deceiving yourself.

Why not both?

--Welcome to the world of Atheism, pal - where Christians constantly feel the need to 'save' your 'soul' and when you don't want to hear it they tend to get pissy. By the way...uh, if there have been, or ever are again, someone claiming to be an Atheist and at the same time trying to push their religion on you...it's safe to say you're free to ignore them because they're completely idiotic. Atheists do NOT have religious beliefs of any kind.

I call bullshit. Either you've never heard of Buddhists, or you're deceiving yourself.

Why not? Atheism means using one's own brains to think. Forcing people to think cannot be a bad thing.
You can do that without POing people. I often try to answer rhetorical or purely polite questions in an unexpected way to make people think. A small and nonannoying way to make the established tradition a farce :)

Why not both?

Possible.

I mean, the people who suggest that atheists CAN'T follow a religion are honestly the group of atheists or people describing atheists who piss me off the most.

Newflash:
Atheist means No Belief in G(g)od(s). It does NOT mean no religious beliefs whatsoever.

Buddhists, Jains (I think), and a few other groups are religions that don't believe in IMITS.

Why not? Atheism means using one's own brains to think. Forcing people to think cannot be a bad thing.

The Ministry of Truth has examined this statement and found it to be double-plus good.

I think the Dalai Lama is a religious atheist. When people speak of atheists, they do usually mean nonreligious atheists, but maybe we should use the term "atheist" less, if we actually mean "nonreligious" or "anti-faith" or some such thing.

I think the Dalai Lama is a religious atheist. When people speak of atheists, they do usually mean nonreligious atheists, but maybe we should use the term "atheist" less, if we actually mean "nonreligious" or "anti-faith" or some such thing.

nonreligious would probably be best, though it doesn't have the same punch as atheist.

Though you're right, there are religious atheists, and people generally ignore their existence when casting aspersions on us godless bastards.

nonreligious would probably be best, though it doesn't have the same punch as atheist.
True, but "atheist" can "punch" in the wrong way. It basically means "without God" IIRC, which isn't really a statement about attitude toward religion and could just add fuel to the belief that atheists are evil.

True, but "atheist" can "punch" in the wrong way. It basically means "without God" IIRC, which isn't really a statement about attitude toward religion and could just add fuel to the belief that atheists are evil.

Let them. If you honestly believe that the only thing that keeps you from going out and killing a dozen random people on the street are the words in a book suposedly inspired by an entity whose existence we can't be sure of, you have more problems than the average "evil atheist."

Let them. If you honestly believe that the only thing that keeps you from going out and killing a dozen random people on the street are the words in a book suposedly inspired by an entity whose existence we can't be sure of, you have more problems than the average "evil atheist."

And one of those problems is likely to be an irate atheist if you say something like that to his or her face.

(Starts to sing 'Why cant we be Friends' in a high, nasal voice.)

How dare you call ush pushies? Athieshts are shome of the finesht people I know!

You shelf righteoush bashtards!

Call us pushies, will you...

[/satire]

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?
Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.


This is a debate forum, you have to expect people to debate with you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/vonbek/2006-07-17.gif

1. Compared to the disgusting filth like this that is spewed daily by religious people, all the militancy of atheists is nothing.

2. We don't maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in our theological doctrines.

1. Verbal spewing, or militancy? Take your pick.

2. Which is true only because your theological doctrine is that no afterlife exists, and when you die all consciousness ends. I am sure that if athiests believed those who believed in a higher power during lives would remain conscious in the grave being slowly devoured by worms, they would "maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in [their] theological doctrines"

1. Verbal spewing, or militancy? Take your pick.

2. Which is true only because your theological doctrine is that no afterlife exists, and when you die all consciousness ends. I am sure that if athiests believed those who believed in a higher power during lives would remain conscious in the grave being slowly devoured by worms, they would "maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in [their] theological doctrines"

WTF?

Seems rather silly to argue what an atheist would believe by making them theists, and then making the assumption on what they would do with their doctrine

What a weird way to argue "Well this is what they would believe, if they were comply different"

This is a debate forum, you have to expect people to debate with you.

One would think so we debate with everyone on everything

1. Verbal spewing, or militancy? Take your pick.

2. Which is true only because your theological doctrine is that no afterlife exists, and when you die all consciousness ends. I am sure that if athiests believed those who believed in a higher power during lives would remain conscious in the grave being slowly devoured by worms, they would "maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in [their] theological doctrines"
That's some pretzel you got there.

I was announcing my beliefs because they were important to the discussion.

And the Athiest's beliefs aren't important, huh? That's not very pushy, right?


I was not tooting my own horn. I was looking for a discussion on this.

So when you start a thread calling athiests pushy, you aren't tooting your own horn, but when athiests are explaining that the concept of sin is a religious idea, they are?


How is starting a discussion adding nothing?

You really had no need to start a new thread on this, you instead could've said this on the Lying thread.

It makes me think of the prejudice against Wicca and Pagans..

Everyone belives different things.. Personally, I think would should let it rest, but that's just me. A religious debate is seriously against general politeness.

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think religious descussions should be started because lots of people get really defensive about their religions.

On this other forum, this person starts in on my because my screen name was WiccaDancer. They started saying that I worship the devil and that Christianity is the only real religion, and that everything else is a sin.

So yea.. I don't think people should have this sort of conversation because some people get really crabby about it..

It makes me think of the prejudice against Wicca and Pagans..

Everyone belives different things.. Personally, I think would should let it rest, but that's just me.

But what if religion inteferes with politics, should it not be discussed then?

Welcome to NSG. Do not worry about those misquided fools. Just ignore them for if you do not do so, they will eat you up alive. Do not worry. Athiests will get their just desserts in hell.

It is how they get off at night because they cannot see the light they are rejecting.

Funny. You're a funny guy.

It makes me think of the prejudice against Wicca and Pagans..

Everyone belives different things.. Personally, I think would should let it rest, but that's just me. A religious debate is seriously against general politeness.

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't think religious descussions should be started because lots of people get really defensive about their religions.

On this other forum, this person starts in on my because my screen name was WiccaDancer. They started saying that I worship the devil and that Christianity is the only real religion, and that everything else is a sin.

So yea.. I don't think people should have this sort of conversation because some people get really crabby about it..
Dude, we get crabby about what soda people drink. Getting crabby is what we do here. We're at our best when we're crabby.

That aside, if beliefs were a private thing then it wouldn't be an issue. If between you and yourself you believed that you were followed by a giant invisible bunny that gave you advice, whatever rocks your boat, to mix a metaphor.

But that's not the issue. Christians in this country try to legislate their faith, use faith as a litmus test for office, come door to door in attempts to convert-they try to instill their faith in the daily lives of everyone around them and view any resistance to this as an attempt to destroy them-like poking a dog with a stick and then being befuddled when the dog gets irritated. The problem is that religion isn't a matter between you and your bunny god, and it's not the atheists who made it that way. When it's a public issue, when I have to insist that my public school and teachers shouldn't be used to proselytize a religion and have that notion considered an attack on religion, well then it's in the public sphere and very much something that should be debated.

And this doesn't even go into people who think their religions and imaginary friends think they should blow themselves and others up.

That's some pretzel you got there.

Yea, let me put some salt on that, might make it easier to digest.

Compared to the disgusting filth like this that is spewed daily by religious people, all the militancy of atheists is nothing. We don't maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in our theological doctrines.

Soheran is making athiests out to be grand people because they do not "maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in our theological doctrines". Wow, no really... Athiests simply do not believe in a 'Hell'. If Christians did not believe in a hell, no doubt they would not say everyone else would "be tortured for eternity".

The point I am trying to make is that athiests do not "maintain that people will be tortured for eternity" because they simply don't believe in that eternity; not because they are such magnanimous people.

If they did believe in a hell where non-believers suffered, and did not constantly spout that to the world, I would say "Good job athiests, that is really considerate of you." Same if the 'religious folk' believed what they did without cursing everyone and condemning them to a terrible fate for lack of faith.

Soheran is making athiests out to be grand people because they do not "maintain that people will be tortured for eternity because they don't believe in our theological doctrines". Wow, no really... Athiests simply do not believe in a 'Hell'. If Christians did not believe in a hell, no doubt they would not say everyone else would "be tortured for eternity".

And aren't athiests better people for not believing in a place where people they don't like will be tormented for eternity?

That aside, if beliefs were a private thing then it wouldn't be an issue. If between you and yourself you believed that you were followed by a giant invisible bunny that gave you advice, whatever rocks your boat, to mix a metaphor.

But that's not the issue. Christians in this country try to legislate their faith, use faith as a litmus test for office, come door to door in attempts to convert-they try to instill their faith in the daily lives of everyone around them and view any resistance to this as an attempt to destroy them-like poking a dog with a stick and then being befuddled when the dog gets irritated. The problem is that religion isn't a matter between you and your bunny god, and it's not the atheists who made it that way. When it's a public issue, when I have to insist that my public school and teachers shouldn't be used to proselytize a religion and have that notion considered an attack on religion, well then it's in the public sphere and very much something that should be debated.
Actually, that's quite beside the issue, too, which is stated in the OP. The issue is atheists who attempt to proselytize their beliefs. "Christians do it, so we can do it" isn't an arguable point, though it seems to be the consensus counter argument on this thread.

And aren't athiests better people for not believing in a place where people they don't like will be tormented for eternity?

A lot of christians also believe that hell is not "eternal torture".

Cannot think of a name- Dude, we get crabby about what soda people drink. Getting crabby is what we do here. We're at our best when we're crabby.

That aside, if beliefs were a private thing then it wouldn't be an issue. If between you and yourself you believed that you were followed by a giant invisible bunny that gave you advice, whatever rocks your boat, to mix a metaphor.

But that's not the issue. Christians in this country try to legislate their faith, use faith as a litmus test for office, come door to door in attempts to convert-they try to instill their faith in the daily lives of everyone around them and view any resistance to this as an attempt to destroy them-like poking a dog with a stick and then being befuddled when the dog gets irritated. The problem is that religion isn't a matter between you and your bunny god, and it's not the atheists who made it that way. When it's a public issue, when I have to insist that my public school and teachers shouldn't be used to proselytize a religion and have that notion considered an attack on religion, well then it's in the public sphere and very much something that should be debated.

And this doesn't even go into people who think their religions and imaginary friends think they should blow themselves and others up.


That's actually not a bad way of thinking.. Just this weekend, people came by trying to convert us. We shut the door in their faces each time.
My dad is Christian but he doesn't push it on us, my brother is Atheist and he doesn't push us, my sister doesn't have a religion though she believes that there may be a god, and me and my mum are Wicca.
It is all just a matter of personal choice.
One of my teachers started telling us the benefits of being Christian. The principal was in the room and that teacher was fired by the end of the day.

It's in our human rights to be able to choose whatever religion we want and no on is allowed to stop us, no matter our age. Hell, you could even stat your own religion. That's what me and some people are doing because we're sick and tired of 'conventional' religions.

But still, whatever religion someone chooses, it's their decision. Those people that try to convert someone, they're violationg your human rights and you could sue them. My neighbor did that. Pretty lucky guy.

And aren't athiests better people for not believing in a place where people they don't like will be tormented for eternity?

Not really.

People believe in something (have faith) because they believe it to be true, not because they want it to be, or because they would like it to be.

If I was to say I don't believe in murderers or rapists, would that make me a better person?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/vonbek/2006-07-17.gif
:D

beati pauperes spiritu, quoniam ipsorum est regnum coelorum
and some folks try so hard to come to heaven... ;)

Which is true only because your theological doctrine is that no afterlife exists, and when you die all consciousness ends.

Hmm, perhaps.

-------------------------------------------

So, fellow atheists: do you think theists deserve to be tortured for eternity?

I vote "no."

People believe in something (have faith) because they believe it to be true, not because they want it to be, or because they would like it to be.

But sending people to Hell is supposed to be the judgment of an all-loving, just, and benevolent deity.

Not the arbitrary feature of a morally-neutral universe.

Hmm, perhaps.

-------------------------------------------

So, fellow atheists: do you think theists deserve to be tortured for eternity?

I vote "no."

Nah. Some of them are pretty fuckin' annoying, but they're in the minority and I wouldn't wish an eternity of torture on even that minority.

But still, whatever religion someone chooses, it's their decision. Those people that try to convert someone, they're violationg your human rights and you could sue them. My neighbor did that. Pretty lucky guy.
Haha. Good on him.

Actually, that's quite beside the issue, too, which is stated in the OP. The issue is atheists who attempt to proselytize their beliefs. "Christians do it, so we can do it" isn't an arguable point, though it seems to be the consensus counter argument on this thread.

Not exactly. Some people are arguing that; others, like myself, have argued that being a jackass is being a jackass, whatever your motivation, but that it's a bit stupid get get worked up over jackasses without the means to cause society any significant harm when there are plenty of jackasses actively and often successfully attempting to do so.

Originally Posted by Zarakon
And aren't athiests better people for not believing in a place where people they don't like will be tormented for eternity?


Isn't being burried in a hole in the ground torture enough?

And don't go at me being all like "Well if you're dead it doesn't matter, does it?"
It's the principal of the thing that counts.

Actually, that's quite beside the issue, too, which is stated in the OP. The issue is atheists who attempt to proselytize their beliefs. "Christians do it, so we can do it" isn't an arguable point, though it seems to be the consensus counter argument on this thread.

No, that is the issue. Atheists have no stake in it otherwise. There isn't a need for anyone to 'come to our side,' there isn't a come to the river element of atheism. Your belief or lack there of is not an issue for us, but it is for the faithful.

It's the 'faithful' that made it an issue. We're not 'proselytizing,' we're saying no. It's not the same thing no matter how you try to paint it.

It's the principal of the thing that counts.

Yes. And the principle is that we don't bury you in a hole unless you are dead - at which point it doesn't matter.

No, that is the issue. Atheists have no stake in it otherwise. There isn't a need for anyone to 'come to our side,' there isn't a come to the river element of atheism. Your belief or lack there of is not an issue for us, but it is for the faithful.

It's the 'faithful' that made it an issue. We're not 'proselytizing,' we're saying no. It's not the same thing no matter how you try to paint it.

But it's the ones who do express "a need to come to our side" that are the ones at issue in the OP. They actively try to change other's beliefs, with no political or other agenda than "it's stupid to believe".

Hmm, perhaps.

-------------------------------------------

So, fellow atheists: do you think theists deserve to be tortured for eternity?

I vote "no."

I wish I could find Vonnegut's Requiem where he asked after death to not be disturbed. Regardless of what you believed, when you die let it be over.

Isn't being burried in a hole in the ground torture enough?

And don't go at me being all like "Well if you're dead it doesn't matter, does it?"
It's the principal of the thing that counts.

Yes everybody, don't go at him "being all like" common sense.

But it's the ones who do express "a need to come to our side" that are the ones at issue in the OP. They actively try to change other's beliefs, with no political or other agenda than "it's stupid to believe".

Exactly. They realize that they aren't going to get things done if people are still clinging to their old myths, athiests aren't going to get anything done. If christians were the minority in a mostly athiest country, they would do the same thing.

No, that is the issue. Atheists have no stake in it otherwise. There isn't a need for anyone to 'come to our side,' there isn't a come to the river element of atheism. Your belief or lack there of is not an issue for us, but it is for the faithful.

It's the 'faithful' that made it an issue. We're not 'proselytizing,' we're saying no. It's not the same thing no matter how you try to paint it.

How many times have you been stopped by those pesky atheists in the street extolling the virtues of their brand of atheism?

I know I have been stopped a few times....Hari Krishnas and....Christians....but never by an atheist.

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?
Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.

And Whats with people sounding off that they are atheist for no reason?
A recent thread asked people whether they lieing was a sin.
Now, sin is a commonly accepeted word for a bad thing.
But many atheists decide to post saying they couldn't answer the question because they didn't think it exist or they didn't believe in it.
Those post added no value to the thread. Did they really need to toot their own horn and announce their beliefs?

Well, all I can say on the matter is, we'll stop tooting our own horns and trying to convince you that your views are wrong if you promise to do the same. That a good deal?

They actively try to change other's beliefs, with no political or other agenda than "it's stupid to believe".

This seems pretty typical human behavior to me, and non-objectionable.

I actually have no problem with religious people trying to convert me - especially the sort who say I'm going to Hell if I continue as an atheist. It makes me respect them more; it means they might actually believe some of what they say they do.

Originally Posted by ThistleFyn- It's the principal of the thing that counts.


Yes. And the principle is that we don't bury you in a hole unless you are dead - at which point it doesn't matter.


Yes.. But what if you weren't dead? Would you like being burried in a hole, 6 feet under? No.

If you had a choice, would you rise off to the heavens to live forever, or would you be burried in a hole?

I wouldn't choose either. I woudl rather walk the earth as a figment of someone's imagination, than do either of the above.

The point is, if you still had your senses, would you want to be underground?

It's mean to corpses too.
Corpses are just deceased people, you know.

But it's the ones who do express "a need to come to our side" that are the ones at issue in the OP. They actively try to change other's beliefs, with no political or other agenda than "it's stupid to believe".

Because belief has become an issue. Because it has been a pervasive element. Your bogeyman of the proselytizing atheist is bullshit, it's not proselytizing, it's resistance because we can't escape. Hell, according to one president we're not even fucking citizens. Your right, the atheists don't have an agenda, it's defense.

If you ask us, we'll tell you it's stupid to believe. That's not proselytizing. That's answering the question. If christians weren't pressing their faith in every aspect of public life then that question wouldn't be asked and you wouldn't be trying to characterize the answer as proselytizing.

This seems pretty typical human behavior to me, and non-objectionable.

I actually have no problem with religious people trying to convert me - especially the sort who say I'm going to Hell if I continue as an atheist. It makes me respect them more; it means they might actually believe some of what they say they do.

I've always been surprised religious people don't respect athiests more. Think about it, the religious guys are saying "You'll go to hell if you're wrong" and the athiest says "Bring it on."

Think about it, if you're an athiest (Like myself) and you're RIGHT, you don't get to gloat, and if you're WRONG you're doomed to an eternity of torment.

This seems pretty typical human behavior to me, and non-objectionable.

I actually have no problem with religious people trying to convert me - especially the sort who say I'm going to Hell if I continue as an atheist. It makes me respect them more; it means they might actually believe some of what they say they do.

I am in agreeance; it's not particularly objectionable to me for people to espouse their ignorance of the opposite side's position.

But sending people to Hell is supposed to be the judgment of an all-loving, just, and benevolent deity.

Not the arbitrary feature of a morally-neutral universe.

Actually, people send themselves to hell (or elsewhere) through their actions.

I don't know where I am going to end up, assuming there is a Christian afterlife, but I sure as hell (:eek:) won't blame God for it either way.

Originally Posted by ThistleFyn
Isn't being burried in a hole in the ground torture enough?

And don't go at me being all like "Well if you're dead it doesn't matter, does it?"
It's the principal of the thing that counts.

Yes everybody, don't go at him "being all like" common sense.


Actually, it's a 'her', common mistake.
And I take offense to your statement.

If you still had your senses, would you want to be burried 6-feet-under?
I doubt it, unless you're a mole or gopher.
I doubt it would be pleasant.

How many times have you been stopped by those pesky atheists in the street extolling the virtues of their brand of atheism?

I know I have been stopped a few times....Hari Krishnas and....Christians....but never by an atheist.
Ah, I remember turning 18 and going on my atheist mission.

Going door to door asking people "Have you not heard the word? No? Great! Have a nice day."

Really, to have christians of all people complain about atheists being pushy goes beyond silly and is down right insulting to the intelligence.

Yes.. But what if you weren't dead? Would you like being burried in a hole, 6 feet under? No.

No. But it won't happen unless I am dead.

If you had a choice, would you rise off to the heavens to live forever, or would you be burried in a hole?

Depends on what's in those "heavens."

The point is, if you still had your senses, would you want to be underground?

No. But I won't go there unless I don't have them.

Corpses are just deceased people, you know.

They are not conscious. They have no more moral value than rocks.

I've always been surprised religious people don't respect athiests more. Think about it, the religious guys are saying "You'll go to hell if you're wrong" and the athiest says "Bring it on."

Think about it, if you're an athiest (Like myself) and you're RIGHT, you don't get to gloat, and if you're WRONG you're doomed to an eternity of torment.

Uhm.. yea..
Respect is not the word for that.
I would either feel sorry for you, or assume you were crazy. Or both.

Your bogeyman of the proselytizing atheist is bullshit, it's not proselytizing, it's resistance because we can't escape.
Are you really so insecure in your beliefs?

If you ask us, we'll tell you it's stupid to believe. That's not proselytizing. That's answering the question. If christians weren't pressing their faith in every aspect of public life then that question wouldn't be asked and you wouldn't be trying to characterize the answer as proselytizing.
The thing is, sometimes nobody asked, and sometimes such input is off-topic and unwelcome.

Religion is like glasses, some people need them to see the world clearly, some people don't.

I've always been surprised religious people don't respect atheists more. Think about it, the religious guys are saying "You'll go to hell if you're wrong" and the atheist says "Bring it on."

Think about it, if you're an atheist (Like myself) and you're RIGHT, you don't get to gloat, and if you're WRONG you're doomed to an eternity of torment.

Yes but that would make you one of Satan's army during the apocalypse. Which means you are the enemy. And it would be a horrible thing if Satan's army were stronger. Even though God's army wins no matter what. But like... with more people in Satan's army, it might make it harder for an omnipotent/omnipresent deity. Or something...

Actually, people send themselves to hell (or elsewhere) through their actions.

Only under the framework GOD created.

but I sure as hell (:eek:) won't blame God for it either way.

God created Heaven. God created Hell. God is the Judge.

Right?

They are not conscious. They have no more moral value than rocks.

And no less.

Yes.. But what if you weren't dead? Would you like being burried in a hole, 6 feet under? No.

If you had a choice, would you rise off to the heavens to live forever, or would you be burried in a hole?

I wouldn't choose either. I woudl rather walk the earth as a figment of someone's imagination, than do either of the above.

The point is, if you still had your senses, would you want to be underground?

It's mean to corpses too.
Corpses are just deceased people, you know.

If your arguments were a cruise line, I would definitely trust the ship; they just don't hold water.

Uhm.. yea..
Respect is not the word for that.
I would either feel sorry for you, or assume you were crazy. Or both.

Why wouldn't you respect someone who holds to their beliefs despite risking eternal hell? Wouldn't you respect someone who held to their beliefs in an authoritarian country even though holding those beliefs risked jail time or death?

God created Heaven. God created Hell. God is the Judge.

Right?

Depends what type of Christian you are.

Yes but that would make you one of Satan's army during the apocalypse. Which means you are the enemy.

That's one interpretation. The Bible bits I've read just says that you'll just be screwed if you were on the wrong side when it's time for the second coming, nothing about a final clashing of armies of good and evil.

Depends what type of Christian you are.

Obviously I'm keeping it to the ones that believe in Heaven and Hell.

Are you really so insecure in your beliefs?
It's not an issue of insecurity. That's practically a non-sequitor. I would ask that of christians whose faith is so shaky and wills so weak that they need their sins to be legislated to insure that they don't do them.

It's not about my 'beliefs' (which are actual a lack of belief, but that's splitting hairs), it's about your beliefs taking away the rights of others (on issues like gay marriage) or the lives of others (abortion clinic bombings, lynchings, suicide bombers). About using public institutions for indoctrination.

Seriously, you want to talk to me about 'insecure?'


The thing is, sometimes nobody asked, and sometimes such input is off-topic and unwelcome.
We can't escape the question, and maybe we consider the intrusion of faith unwelcome. It's back to being surprised that the dog you've been poking with a stick is upset.

Depends what type of Christian you are.

Excuse me? There are Christians who do not believe that God created Heaven and Hell, and is the Judge who decides who goes where? What do they believe?

Actually, it's a 'her', common mistake.
And I take offense to your statement.

You should try taking notice of it instead. Your statement lacked common sense.

Only under the framework GOD created.



God created Heaven. God created Hell. God is the Judge.

Right?

Yes... if someone tells you that murder is bad and that if you do it you will certainly end up drowned in Jello, and then you go kill a famous pop-diva... Who do you have to blame but yourself when you end up choking your last breaths inside a glob of gelatinous-green hellfire?

Obviously I'm keeping it to the ones that believe in Heaven and Hell.

Umm...are there Christians who don't believe in heaven and hell? That's like a Black Sabbath fan who doesn't believe in Heaven and Hell.

That's one interpretation. The Bible bits I've read just says that you'll just be screwed if you were on the wrong side when it's time for the second coming, nothing about a final clashing of armies of good and evil.

But that interpretation, you must admit, is the most fun and most worthy of the Big Screen adaptation.

Yes... if someone tells you that murder is bad and that if you do it you will certainly end up drowned in Jello, and then you go kill a famous pop-diva... Who do you have to blame but yourself when you end up choking your last breaths inside a glob of gelatinous-green hellfire?

Which pop-diva?

Excuse me? There are Christians who do not believe that God created Heaven and Hell, and is the Judge who decides who goes where? What do they believe?

Some christians believe that you just go straight to heaven and hell without being "judged" by God after you die, rather you just automatically go there etc...

Why wouldn't you respect someone who holds to their beliefs despite risking eternal hell? Wouldn't you respect someone who held to their beliefs in an authoritarian country even though holding those beliefs risked jail time or death?

hrm.. actually, now that you asked those enlightening questions, I would probably have to change my stance on the issue.

*tosses a R-E-S-P-E-C-T medal at you*
Even though I think you are wrong.:p

Which pop-diva?

Hah!

Absolutely Brilliant.

Some christians believe that you just go straight to heaven and hell without being "judged" by God after you die, rather you just automatically go there etc...

So Jesus is sort of like automatic-sentencing legislation?

Which pop-diva?

Well... one that killing would be considered murdering.. um...

I will let the commitee get back to you on that..

It's not an issue of insecurity. That's practically a non-sequitor. I would ask that of christians whose faith is so shaky and wills so weak that they need their sins to be legislated to insure that they don't do them.

It's not about my 'beliefs' (which are actual a lack of belief, but that's splitting hairs), it's about your beliefs taking away the rights of others (on issues like gay marriage) or the lives of others (abortion clinic bombings, lynchings, suicide bombers). About using public institutions for indoctrination.

Seriously, you want to talk to me about 'insecure?'
Then why is it you claim "no escape" for yourself? Perhaps I'm missing something. Why do you need to form an active "resistence"? Why feel threatened? Surely your beliefs in themselves are already an avenue away from the "lunacy" of the religious dogma? I must be misunderstanding.

We can't escape the question, and maybe we consider the intrusion of faith unwelcome. It's back to being surprised that the dog you've been poking with a stick is upset.
But we can assert some will power and avoid commenting on "the question" if it's a religious thread and the reply strays off-topic.

Yes... if someone tells you that murder is bad and that if you do it you will certainly end up drowned in Jello, and then you go kill a famous pop-diva... Who do you have to blame but yourself when you end up choking your last breaths inside a glob of gelatinous-green hellfire?

Well, there are two problems with this line of thought.

First, you assume that I should believe the person for some reason. If I tell you that unless you jump up and down fifty times, you'll burn in Hell for eternity, would you really believe me?

Second, the fact that the consequences were predictable does not make me exclusively responsible for them. If someone with a gun tells me to do something, I may be able to predict that if I refuse, she will kill me... but if I do refuse, and she does kill me, SHE is responsible for my death. She pulled the trigger. She caused my death.

Some christians believe that you just go straight to heaven and hell without being "judged" by God after you die, rather you just automatically go there etc...

What determines where you go?

First, you assume that I should believe the person for some reason. If I tell you that unless you jump up and down fifty times, you'll burn in Hell for eternity, would you really believe me?


I would certainly ask you, if you asked me such a question, did you just make that up or did somebody else make it up and print it in a book that is very, very, very old.

But that interpretation, you must admit, is the most fun and most worthy of the Big Screen adaptation.

Well, yeah. It'd be far less fun to watch on a big screen if Christ and his fellers just came in with a lot of ominous portents and whatnot, and then instead of fighting the evil forces of Satan just passed judgement to the living and the dead, and that's it.

What determines where you go?God rolls the dice.

What determines where you go?

The universal law of the... universe? Anyway I don't really feel like persuing this in depth, cause it's not like I agree with it.

Excuse me? There are Christians who do not believe that God created Heaven and Hell, and is the Judge who decides who goes where? What do they believe?

Some Christians believe that 'heaven' is unity with God, who is like the Vedic Brahman, which is a 'substance' that supports all existence. Unity with God is the loss of conscious 'life'.

What determines where you go?

Sounds like some kind of "fate". Which would pretty much be the same as what United Beleriand said.

The universal law of the... universe?

The universe God created?

Then why is it you claim "no escape" for yourself? Perhaps I'm missing something. Why do you need to form an active "resistence"? Why feel threatened? Surely your beliefs in themselves are already an avenue away from the "lunacy" of the religious dogma? I must be misunderstanding.


But we can assert some will power and avoid commenting on "the question" if it's a religious thread and the reply strays off-topic.

Our freedoms are under attack by religious fundamentalists who would impose their interpretation of their religious teachings as the only way people should be allowed to live. Any time religion is mentioned on a political forum is potentially such an intrusion.

But since he's God, doesn't he already know the outcome of the roll? Why should he bother rolling? For that matter, why create the dice?

Such matters are beyond human understanding.

God rolls the dice.

But since he's God, doesn't he already know the outcome of the roll? Why should he bother rolling? For that matter, why create the dice?

But since he's God, doesn't he already know the outcome of the roll? Why should he bother rolling? For that matter, why create the dice?You overestimate the foreknowledge of this particular god... ;)

The universe God created?

A small amount of nutty evangelicals actually believe that the universe had always existed as chaos, and God used these materials to make the World. At least those evangelicals are actually more consistant with the Bible.

Such matters are beyond human understanding.Prove it.

Then why is it you claim "no escape" for yourself? Perhaps I'm missing something. Why do you need to form an active "resistence"? Why feel threatened? Surely your beliefs in themselves are already an avenue away from the "lunacy" of the religious dogma? I must be misunderstanding.
Read the fucking post. For fucks sake. Did you seriously just ask me why I can't get away from legislated faith? Are you just being obtuse?


But we can assert some will power and avoid commenting on "the question" if it's a religious thread and the reply strays off-topic.
Wait, "I want to bring up religion, but I don't want anyone to disagree?" Nice.

Well, there are two problems with this line of thought.

First, you assume that I should believe the person for some reason. If I tell you that unless you jump up and down fifty times, you'll burn in Hell for eternity, would you really believe me?

Second, the fact that the consequences were predictable does not make me exclusively responsible for them. If someone with a gun tells me to do something, I may be able to predict that if I refuse, she will kill me... but if I do refuse, and she does kill me, SHE is responsible for my death. She pulled the trigger. She caused my death.

1. I do not assume you should believe the person. We are just saying that you should, and if you don't it will spell your ruin. That is why it is called 'faith' and not 'fact-which-you-should-definitely-believe-with-no-hesitation'. I would believe you if what you said was what I believed, and if what you were was a higher power called God which I believe in.

2. Actually, it is more like this. I build a mountain that has a cliff leading off to a sharp drop with rocks below. I tell you that if you run off the cliff you will land on the sharp rocks and die. You may be able to predict that the rocks will kill you, or you can ignore me and run off. I am not responsible for your death if you do so.

Some Christians believe that 'heaven' is unity with God, who is like the Vedic Brahman, which is a 'substance' that supports all existence. Unity with God is the loss of conscious 'life'.

But they are Christians, not Hindi? Is this an organized sect, or something some "new age" types made up?

Well, yeah. It'd be far less fun to watch on a big screen if Christ and his fellers just came in with a lot of ominous portents and whatnot, and then instead of fighting the evil forces of Satan just passed judgement to the living and the dead, and that's it.

Sounds like one of those existential french pictures with boring subtitles.

Prove it.

Proof: "e to the i pi plus one equals zero"
Your refutation, Sir?

Such matters are beyond human understanding.

The tides where once beyond human understanding. When humans were able to understand, the answer didn't turn out to be 'magic.' In fact, of the things that we didn't understand but now do, not one have them has been 'magic.' That's one hell of a streak, one might even use it as a pattern.

1. I do not assume you should believe the person. We are just saying that you should, and if you don't it will spell your ruin. That is why it is called 'faith' and not 'fact-which-you-should-definitely-believe-with-no-hesitation'. I would believe you if what you said was what I believed, and if what you were was a higher power called God which I believe in.


Excellent. All I need is a megaphone, a strobe light and thunder sound effects. Hee hee hee!

The tides where once beyond human understanding. When humans were able to understand, the answer didn't turn out to be 'magic.' In fact, of the things that we didn't understand but now do, not one have them has been 'magic.' That's one hell of a streak, one might even use it as a pattern.

Tides are not logical paradoxes, and were never really viewed as such.

Prove it.

My religion tells me it is so. Therefore, it is so.

1. I do not assume you should believe the person. We are just saying that you should, and if you don't it will spell your ruin.

But why the fuck should I believe you?

If there's no reason for me to do so, how am I responsible for the unknown consequences of my actions?

2. Actually, it is more like this. I build a mountain that has a cliff leading off to a sharp drop with rocks below. I tell you that if you run off the cliff you will land on the sharp rocks and die. You may be able to predict that the rocks will kill you, or you can ignore me and run off. I am not responsible for your death if you do so.

No... but if you DELIBERATELY create the mountain such that running off the cliff results in a horrible death because you believe that running off the cliff is "sinful", then yes, you are responsible for my death.

Eternal punishment in Hell is not incidental. It is deliberately part and parcel of God's plan.

Read the fucking post. For fucks sake. Did you seriously just ask me why I can't get away from legislated faith? Are you just being obtuse?
No, my question had nothing to do with legislating faith.

Wait, "I want to bring up religion, but I don't want anyone to disagree?" Nice.
Haha.

Proof: "e to the i pi plus one equals zero"
Your refutation, Sir?? That is a nice formula. But what proof is this that the human mind is limited? After all, at least one human mind discovered this formula...

But they are Christians, not Hindi? Is this an organized sect, or something some "new age" types made up?

Evangelical; very "old" age, not "new age". :) They are, some at least, part of the Emergent Church.

No, my question had nothing to do with legislating faith.

The post you responded to did.

Haha.

I agree, it is to laugh. Unfortunately it's gotten sad as well.

My religion tells me it is so. Therefore, it is so.Could you point out, where and how exactly your religion tells you so?

? That is a nice formula. But what proof is this that the human mind is limited? After all, at least one human mind discovered this formula...

How about this: the human mind can not expand any larger/more powerful then the earths resources can support, thus the mind is limited.

You'd like my kitten Sokkwi, then. He's the friendliest cat I've ever seen...almost too friendly, actually, what with his constant rubbing of his face onto yours. He does do it to me far more often than anyone else though...probably because my own face tends to be slightly furry. :confused:

Anyway, Corny, shove your self-rightious Christian bullshit back up the ass you expelled it from, please. We atheists are not evil or anything but intellectually honest. We deserve the same kind of respect everyone else gets. We deserve representation in government, protection from discrimination, ect ect. We're not some plague bent on annihilating religions, though some tend to be thanks to people like you treating us like dirt because we don't believe in some magical sky fairy(ies).

Great! I would love your cat.

And, I guess I agree...fudge packing of one's own dogma is indeeed necessary in this case. I'm sorry. :(

Tides are not logical paradoxes, and were never really viewed as such.

Didn't follow the discussion. My bad.

The post you responded to did.
No; I replied to the actual topic we were discussing, and to which all the talk of legislation was superfluous. I replied to the only reply you actually made to my post, which was, "It's not an issue of insecurity."

Changing the topic doesn't make it go away.

http://www.musicforstarters.com/images/puppets/Purple-dinosaur.jpg

How about this: the human mind can not expand any larger/more powerful then the earths resources can support, thus the mind is limited.Still enough for the issue in question.

http://www.musicforstarters.com/images/puppets/Purple-dinosaur.jpg
Aaaargghh!! Purple dinosaurs? Does Barney reproduce??? :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :gundge: :gundge: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Okay, I made a post and got some kind of "moderation" message, I'm getting sucked into an argument about what some weird-ass supposed Christians that I've never heard of believe, and in another thread, a post I made appeared above the post I was quoting. Is Nation States always like this? :confused:

? That is a nice formula. But what proof is this that the human mind is limited? After all, at least one human mind discovered this formula...

Philosophers since at least Plato have given us a structure on which to reason that our perception of the world around us is limited.

No; I replied to the actual topic we were discussing, and to which all the talk of legislation was superfluous. I replied to the only reply you actually made to my post, which was, "It's not an issue of insecurity."

Changing the topic doesn't make it go away.

You have not understood the arguments. Please reread them.

Philosophers since at least Plato have given us a structure on which to reason that our perception of the world around us is limited.Yeah, but what did Plato know about brain functionality?

Okay, I made a post and got some kind of "moderation" message, I'm getting sucked into an argument about what some weird-ass supposed Christians that I've never heard of believe, and in another thread, a post I made appeared above the post I was quoting. Is Nation States always like this? :confused:

Welcome to the forums. :D

? That is a nice formula. But what proof is this that the human mind is limited? After all, at least one human mind discovered this formula...

My point is that we cannot prove anything outside of mathematics, the field we invented to encompass the provable.

And no, I can't prove it :/

Welcome to the forums. :D

Thanks, I think :p

Okay, I made a post and got some kind of "moderation" message, I'm getting sucked into an argument about what some weird-ass supposed Christians that I've never heard of believe, and in another thread, a post I made appeared above the post I was quoting. Is Nation States always like this? :confused:
As I understand it, the clocks on the servers aren't synced so when you place a response sometimes it will go to a server that is behind, putting your time stamp earlier which places it before the post you are responding to.

That's my understanding from the dozen or so other times this gets asked, but I might be wrong.

Yeah, but what did Plato know about brain functionality?

Well, Hippocrates knew that epilepsy was a brain disorder in the 420's bc. So, Plato might have known more than we're likely to give him credit for.

You have not understood the arguments. Please reread them.

I understood the arguments. They strayed away from what we were discussing (which was proselytizying atheists, and to which your only response was "bullshit" which doesn't even take a side in the discussion at all) and did not address what I was saying. Now I understand that you want to introduce new information about why atheists need to "protect" themselves from the evil theists, but it's not really relevant to the OP, which is all I wanted to discuss.

As I understand it, the clocks on the servers aren't synced so when you place a response sometimes it will go to a server that is behind, putting your time stamp earlier which places it before the post you are responding to.

That's my understanding from the dozen or so other times this gets asked, but I might be wrong.

Understanding flows! Namaste!

My religion tells me it is so. Therefore, it is so.



But why the fuck should I believe you?

If there's no reason for me to do so, how am I responsible for the unknown consequences of my actions?



No... but if you DELIBERATELY create the mountain such that running off the cliff results in a horrible death because you believe that running off the cliff is "sinful", then yes, you are responsible for my death.

Eternal punishment in Hell is not incidental. It is deliberately part and parcel of God's plan.

1. I love you selective quoters. Why don't you go back and read the second half of my first statement?

2. Your actions, whether based on definitive knowledge or not, are still your actions.

3. I'm glad you know so much about how God's mind works, for not even believing in a god.

You defined proof as a result of the scientific method: observation, and experimentation to test hypotheses. That effectively excludes proof derived at through reason, such as in logic and mathematics. So I was just asking if you believe in those.How is logic and mathematics not derived from the scientific method? So you are saying 2+2 does not equal 4? I fail to understand where you are coming from. If you had a heart attack would you go to a witch doctor or a prestigious heart surgeon? According to you a man with a snake spitting urine in your face can heal you just as effectively as a well trained heart surgeon if you perceive the urine spitting witch doctor as more effective. Maybe I do not understand what you are saying please explain your views in more detail.

I understood the arguments. They strayed away from what we were discussing (which was proselytizying atheists, and to which your only response was "bullshit" which doesn't even take a side in the discussion at all) and did not address what I was saying. Now I understand that you want to introduce new information about why atheists need to "protect" themselves from the evil theists, but it's not really relevant to the OP, which is all I wanted to discuss.

No, you don't. I said it's bullshit and then explained why it is a mischaracterization. I explained the situation that it exists in, not the vacuum you'd like it to so you can make this claim. The vacuum does not exist.

Sorry.

1. I love you selective quoters. Why don't you go back and read the second half of my first statement?

Um, I did.

It changes nothing. We were talking about RESPONSIBILITY.

What I know and what I should know influence my responsibility. What I have no good reason whatsoever to believe does not.

2. Your actions, whether based on definitive knowledge or not, are still your actions.

So?

3. I'm glad you know so much about how God's mind works

I am merely repeating the doctrine.

*tosses a R-E-S-P-E-C-T medal at you*

It doesn't play that bloody song, does it?


Even though I think you are wrong.:p

About religion, you mean?

That's just because generations of violent films have instilled the human psyche with the belief that guns will kills you. Some people know differently. The NRA for instance.So you are saying guns can not kill people? Why do Governments spend millions of dollars on training and weaponary when they should be investing in postive thinking? So if someone sticks a piece of dynamite up their ass they will not die or even have problems with their bowels later if they believe the dynamite can not hurt them? Whoa man that is some crazy shit you need to share what you are smoking with every one else:p

It does matter what you believe. But it also matters what everyone else believes. Some people have more belief than others and it takes more belief from others to overcome that belief.

e.g. as more people begin to oppose the war in Iraq, it is going more and more badly. That's why the administration has spent so much more effort on controlling US public opinion than it has on things like properly training the troops or giving them proper equipment. They knew that belief was a bigger determining factor.You are talking about government propaganda and mind control now. Using the mass media to lie to everyone and get them to believe in a bullshit war is a lot different than using positive thinking to make you bullet proof. You can believe what ever you want when you jump off a cliff but the truth is when you hit the bottom you are going to be fucked up.

That's what this whole "scientific method" thing is really about. It's not about finding out if something works. It's about coming up with an explanation to make people believe it so that it will work.So the scientific method is a conspiracy? I tell you what man you make a video shooting yourself in the head with a shotgun and if the bullet bounces off your head due to the energy of your positive thoughts I will totally stop believing in science and you will become my new god.

It doesn't play that bloody song, does it?



About religion, you mean?

Um..no, no... *takes it and smashes a chip on the back, then hands it to you*

Yes, since I believe that there is a God and an afterlife, and since I think you are athiest (you are, right?), then I think you are wrong about...yea, religion.

? That is a nice formula. But what proof is this that the human mind is limited? After all, at least one human mind discovered this formula...

The human mind contains a finite number of brain cells. Each cell can store a finite amount of information. Ergo, the human mind is limited.

This is what it comes down to: With religion, you are either a lamb or a wolf. Atheists and agnostics are content with being human.

Isn't it amazing how fast these religion vs atheism threads grow?

No not really amazing, this one is rather small, and also rather tame...

This is what it comes down to: With religion, you are either a lamb or a wolf. Atheists and agnostics are content with being human.

I wanna be a bunny

The human mind contains a finite number of brain cells. Each cell can store a finite amount of information. Ergo, the human mind is limited.But not as limited as certain religious nutjobs always claim. Certainly human intellect is sufficient to comprehend what's behind the christian 'god'.

Um, I did.

It changes nothing. We were talking about RESPONSIBILITY.

What I know and what I should know influence my responsibility. What I have no good reason whatsoever to believe does not.

So?

I am merely repeating the doctrine.

I can see where you are coming from, however, take this analogy: You have no idea that guns, or bullets, or the firing of bullets from guns can kill someone. You take a gun, and shoot an individual, who promptly perishes. Now, you may not have had knowledge of the outcome, or knowledge at the very least that the outcome was possible, but you still did in fact fire the gun. You still did precipitate the event and still did cause what happened to happen. You are ultimately responsible for your actions.

The fundamental problem with this entire discussion is that clearly athiests and thiests think differently when it comes to religion.(yes, I know this is quite obvious). Thiests are more likely to hold certain things as more important, perhaps even taken as granted, while athiests will entirely disregard them. It is hard to logically argue religion, because it is hard to logically justify a higher power. There is no definitive tangible evidence either way, so this entire discussion comes down to analogy and opinion.

I will admit, that as someone who believes in a God, an afterlife, and Jesus; that this is only what I believe in. I do not know any of this for a fact. I cannot even truthfully argue that I know what God thinks, or how the system works, just as I assume you cannot. I am not even sure what we hope to accomplish with this entire discussion, except maybe raise more questions.

Well, Hippocrates knew that epilepsy was a brain disorder in the 420's bc. So, Plato might have known more than we're likely to give him credit for.Are you suggesting that Plato knew how the human brain works? How information is transmitted? How it is stored? That he knew about neurons, axons, synapses?

No not really amazing, this one is rather small, and also rather tame...maybe because it's sunday and the religious folks are all in church praying for a new car and stuff like that...

maybe because it's sunday and the religious folks are all in church praying for a new car and stuff like that...

Touches United Beleriand on the cheek.

Are you suggesting that Plato knew how the human brain works? How information is transmitted? How it is stored? That he knew about neurons, axons, synapses?

uh... no. I'm just saying that there are things he probably did know about the brain, and things that people knew about the brain a long, long time ago, which would surprise you. I don't think that would include neurons, though.

I wanna be a bunny

Hare Krishnas are for you.

No and neither should we as Christians, toot our own horn either. Our job is to spread the Truth but not force it on others.

Truth? There is no truth in ur beliefs. Example. (http://www.konig.org/timeline.htm)
They are based ona book with the latest entery being about 2000 years ago. Are you saying that actual copies of this manuscript or even stuff close to the original survived? First of all how could two people create at least five different races? Do snakes realy talk? There is no proof of Moses, Abraham, Joseph, and no one has found the remains of the most famous man(for Jesus was a man, not a god)

uh... no. I'm just saying that there are things he probably did know about the brain, and things that people knew about the brain a long, long time ago, which would surprise you. I don't think that would include neurons, though.So what would someone like Plato truly know about the capacity of a human mind?

Hare Krishnas are for you.

You fail completely, but still win the thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070510/ts_csm/cbelief_1

You Christians and Atheists should both be ashamed...

No, you don't. I said it's bullshit and then explained why it is a mischaracterization. I explained the situation that it exists in, not the vacuum you'd like it to so you can make this claim. The vacuum does not exist.

Sorry.

No, you declared the topic bullshit and explaned another situation, rather than addressing the situation that was the topic. Your "mischaracterization" does not apply to the atheists of whom the topic was made.

Actually, that's quite beside the issue, too, which is stated in the OP. The issue is atheists who attempt to proselytize their beliefs. "Christians do it, so we can do it" isn't an arguable point, though it seems to be the consensus counter argument on this thread.

Actually, "Christians can do it, so we can too" is very much an arguable point.

See, the vast majority of people would agree with me that, since Christians are people, Christians have the right to free speech and the freedom to believe as they wish. As such, Christians have the right to try to convince others that their beliefs are right (which, when religion is involved, is better known as proselytizing) and that Christians have the right to ignore anyone who tries to tell them that their beliefs are wrong (including, unsurprisingly, atheists).

However, atheists are also people. As such atheists also have the right to free speech and the freedom to believe as they wish - which, as you might have deduced from what Christians are allowed to do, includes the right to proselytize and the right to ignore Christians who attempt to convert them.

In other words, since atheists are people just like Christians are, atheists have the same rights as Christians do.

Understand?

Our freedoms are under attack by religious fundamentalists who would impose their interpretation of their religious teachings as the only way people should be allowed to live. Any time religion is mentioned on a political forum is potentially such an intrusion.

Listen to this man. He is making sense.

Christians have the right to believe in whatever way they choose. They have the right to express their religion as they wish, up to and including attempting to proselytize atheists like me. However, Christians do NOT have the right to force me to believe as they do, nor do they have the right to force me to follow laws based on their religious commandments.

Unfortunately, time and experience have provided ample evidence that a great many Christians have committed their political energies to doing exactly that.

I will NOT blindly stand aside while the Dominionists and the theocons try to legislate their views on morality on those who do not agree with them. I would NOT blindly stand aside even if the theocons weren't targeting atheists - indeed, I would NOT stand aside even if atheists were trying to legislate that everyone become an atheist. I will NOT simply allow someone to tell me or anyone else how to think and/or how to act without a damn good reason for it (i.e, unless it would cause clear physical or financial harm). Not without a fight.

So what would someone like Plato truly know about the capacity of a human mind?

Not sure. My point is, probably more than most people would give him credit for. I'm, unfortunately, not a Plato scholar.

Not sure. My point is, probably more than most people would give him credit for. I'm, unfortunately, not a Plato scholar.So what does that "more than most people would give him credit for" actually mean? What did Plato know about the capacity of a human mind, according to you? Did he say anything meaningful, anything that matches modern knowledge?

So what does that "more than most people would give him credit for" actually mean? What did Plato know about the capacity of a human mind, according to you? Did he say anything meaningful, anything that matches modern knowledge?

Let us describe the education of our men. What then is the education to be? Perhaps we could hardly find a better than that which the experience of the past has already discovered, which consists, I believe, in gymnastic, for the body, and music for the mind.
-Plato

Does that answer your question? No? Did you miss my point? Yes?

Let us describe the education of our men. What then is the education to be? Perhaps we could hardly find a better than that which the experience of the past has already discovered, which consists, I believe, in gymnastic, for the body, and music for the mind.
-Plato

Does that answer your question? No? Did you miss my point? Yes?

Do not worry. It is not the first time something like this has flown over his head.

Let us describe the education of our men. What then is the education to be? Perhaps we could hardly find a better than that which the experience of the past has already discovered, which consists, I believe, in gymnastic, for the body, and music for the mind.
-Plato

Does that answer your question? No? Did you miss my point? Yes?Apparently. What was your point?
My point/question was whether Plato really said something about the abilities of the human mind that are relevant and true according to modern knowledge about the brain and mind. Did he know something that was really over two millennia ahead of his time?

Usually I try to be "Whatever, believe what you want" until they start using religion as an argument for something, and then I switch to "I'm an athiest, this is bullshit." mode.


x2

x2oh, i am just watching that one.

x2

oh, i am just watching that one.

I'm confused...

I'm confused...x2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X2_(film))

I wonder what would happen if I made the antithesis to this thread called "Pushy Christians"... :p

I wonder what would happen if I made the antithesis to this thread called "Pushy Christians"... :p

The response would be a resounding.

Duhh...

I wonder what would happen if I made the antithesis to this thread called "Pushy Christians"... :p

It'd be the same, except less ironic.

EDIT: Or, it would be locked as a copycat thread. Sorry, I was away...

The response would be a resounding.

Duhh...

So you're admitting that they're pushy?

So you're admitting that they're pushy?

Admitting? What is this, a confession?

Yes, some Christians are pushy, and some athiests can be too.

I thought I was a reasonable person.. do I really make myself out to be so close-minded?

x2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X2_(film))

i lost all faith in humanity right there ( ;) )

Admitting? What is this, a confession?

Yes, some Christians are pushy, and some athiests can be too.

I thought I was a reasonable person.. do I really make myself out to be so close-minded?

I had misunderstood your post as a bad attempt at sarcasm.

I had misunderstood your post as a bad attempt at sarcasm.

I have not and will never make a bad attempt at sarcasm. I have and always will make flagrantly and fragrantly horrific attempts at sarcasm.

The response would be a resounding.

Duhh...

*is deafened by the noise*

It'd be the same, except less ironic.

EDIT: Or, it would be locked as a copycat thread. Sorry, I was away...
How true. It would end like that and it wouldn't be pretty.

Atheism bases itself on absense of quantative knowledge of the spiritual, which is true, we know we dont have such knowlege. Christians base themselves on a supposed knowledge of the spiritual, which they cannot prove.

Logic prevails.

I have not and will never make a bad attempt at sarcasm. I have and always will make flagrantly and fragrantly horrific attempts at sarcasm.

:D Fragrant, eh? One of those scratch n sniff posts.

:D Fragrant, eh? One of those scratch n sniff posts.

:D Fragrant, eh? One of those scratch n sniff posts.

L o l. How truly awesome would that be? We could smell the disgust in Fassigen's posts, the hilarious insanity in LG's, and the fresh and slight tangy flavour of newb posts.

As well as all the utter crap stink that a lot of trolls don't clean out from under them bridges/britches..

@Andaras Prime: An abscence of quantitative knowledge does not necessarily mean a lack. *squints painfully*

@Andaras Prime: An abscence of quantitative knowledge does not necessarily mean a lack. *squints painfully*

It's quality that matters. For example, if someone knows nothing except the correct application of forces to propel an object faster then light, they're still pretty fuckin' smart.


Idiot Savants: We pwn you a small percentage of the time!

It's quality that matters. For example, if someone knows nothing except the correct application of forces to propel an object faster then light, they're still pretty fuckin' smart.


Idiot Savants: We pwn you a small percentage of the time!

I don't know if I am one of those idiots, but I really lost what direction you were going with that. Am I right, or am I right?

I agree with what you said, I just don't understand why you gave that example.

I don't know if I am one of those idiots, but I really lost what direction you were going with that. Am I right, or am I right?

I agree with what you said, I just don't understand why you gave that example.

I was trying to explain that the quality of what you know matters more then the quantity. If it was based on quantity, I would be one of the smartest people on the planet. (I know massive quantities of totally, utterly useless information. Unless I went on Jeopardy or something.)

EDIT: Guess who's rating brought the thread rating down an entire star! This is the first thread I've rated, that I know of.

I was trying to explain that the quality of what you know matters more then the quantity. If it was based on quantity, I would be one of the smartest people on the planet. (I know massive quantities of totally, utterly useless information. Unless I went on Jeopardy or something.)

EDIT: Guess who's rating brought the thread rating down an entire star! This is the first thread I've rated, that I know of.

Oh, but how does that apply to the quote you quoth from me?

Even though I agree with you.

My rating!

Philosophers since at least Plato have given us a structure on which to reason that our perception of the world around us is limited.

Yeah, but what did Plato know about brain functionality?
I have no idea, but Aristotle was pretty handy at dissecting things.

But knowledge of the brain's workings is not necessary to formulate a philosophical "structure on which to reason that our perception of the world around us is limited." All it takes is sense (and sensibility) and a working definition of consciousness.

Now, sin is a commonly accepted word for a bad thing.
I am afraid that 'sin' is not generally accepted as a secular term.

I am afraid that 'sin' is not generally accepted as a secular term.

Oh.. pish and posh.

We all know sin is an acronym.

Sexually
Inconvenient
Noun

Actually, "Christians can do it, so we can too" is very much an arguable point.

See, the vast majority of people would agree with me that, since Christians are people, Christians have the right to free speech and the freedom to believe as they wish. As such, Christians have the right to try to convince others that their beliefs are right (which, when religion is involved, is better known as proselytizing) and that Christians have the right to ignore anyone who tries to tell them that their beliefs are wrong (including, unsurprisingly, atheists).

However, atheists are also people. As such atheists also have the right to free speech and the freedom to believe as they wish - which, as you might have deduced from what Christians are allowed to do, includes the right to proselytize and the right to ignore Christians who attempt to convert them.

In other words, since atheists are people just like Christians are, atheists have the same rights as Christians do.

Understand?
The point that "atheists are people too" doesn't address the complaint made in the OP, either, except in that it may excuse their actions. It is precisely because they are "people" that they misbehave so.

By the way, "freedom of speech" doesn't mean you can say what you want whenever you want to whomever you want. In the U.S. it is a right "to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content" and internationally is a right to speech without government censorship.

The point that "atheists are people too" doesn't address the complaint made in the OP, either, except in that it may excuse their actions. It is precisely because they are "people" that they misbehave so.

Since the point seems to have gotten lost in translation, let's try this again in the form of a proof.

GIVEN that atheists and Christians are both people, and GIVEN that Christians are allowed to attempt to convince others that their beliefs are right, then by the Law of Syllogism we can CONCLUDE that atheists are also allowed to convince others that their beliefs are right.

If you have a problem with the reasoning here, then please state which part you think is wrong, and why. The answer should be most enlightening.

By the way, "freedom of speech" doesn't mean you can say what you want whenever you want to whomever you want. In the U.S. it is a right "to express information, ideas, and opinions free of government restrictions based on content" and internationally is a right to speech without government censorship.

If we want to get technical about free speech, then the government actually has a limited right to restrict speech based on content (obsence material without redeeming qualities and shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre come to mind).

That said, the last I heard the US government does not have the right to restrict free speech based solely on the time or place where said speech takes place. If you have evidence to refute this, then please post a link to the relevant laws and/or Supreme Court decisions.

Finally, I never said that people have the right to free speech without consequences, nor did I say that people have the right to be heard - only that, under ordinary circumstances, they have the right to say what they wish without government interference.

I think all of us atheists here should get together and have a circle-jerk.

I don't know... sounds a bit sinful to me ;) .

Yes but atheism isn't a religion in the general sense, it is an acceptance of what we already know for sure about the divine, nothing. Christianity on the other hand offers itself as special knowledge of the divine, for which they offer no evidence of.

Welcome to NSG. Do not worry about those misquided fools. Just ignore them for if you do not do so, they will eat you up alive. Do not worry. Athiests will get their just desserts in hell.

Yeah, I'm looking for my panna cotta and my Sachertorte. Provided the fires of hell are hot enough to cook.:)
Btw, what does "miSQUIDed" mean, that we will be served coquillage sautè also?;)


It is how they get off at night because they cannot see the light they are rejecting.

If your "God" chose not to shed his light upon us by remaining hidden to rational inquiry, well, you should accept his will, shouldn't you? ;)

Anyway, there is too much talk about religion, and many people, both religious and not religious, behave like jerks when it comes to it - including myself.
Usually, I prefer talking about the social issues linked to religion, but I refrain from talking about the intrinsics of religion itself, because I don't have direct experience of it - and Kant proved that it is impossible to apply logics to religion, hence by talking about it you get nowhere because no logically final argument can be used. Either one believes, either one doesn't.

No and neither should we as Christians, toot our own horn either. Our <a href="http://forums.jolt.co.uk/?go=job">job</a> is to <a href="http://forums.jolt.co.uk/?go=spread">spread</a> the truth but not force it on others.

Totally seconded - including the "atheist side", of course. Tooting horns adds nothing to the value of an argument.

http://www.trevoroldak.com/uploads/atheists.jpg
Yeah, we're the fucking problem...Where is Soldotna?

Where is Soldotna?

I guess the Deep Bible Belt.

Anyway, atheists welcome in the EU.

Are you suggesting that Plato knew how the human brain works? How information is transmitted? How it is stored? That he knew about neurons, axons, synapses?You'd be surprised. Certain pre-Socratic philosophers advanced a crude sort of atomic theory and hypothesized that matter and energy are composed of the same substance.

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?

I think it's mostly just you, althought admittedly I have met a few athiests who seemed to think they had some sort of duty to make me renounce my beliefs. So infuriating. Many religious people behave in the same way, both regarding atheists and people with different religious views.

I just have a live and let live policy, myself, and mostly it works.

... but this thread will top 3 bajillion pages with theists shouting "Does too" and Atheists shouting "Does not".

Oh, come on people, put a pit of pace in yer posting, or we won't hit that 3 bajillion mark! :D

I guess the Deep Bible Belt.

Anyway, atheists welcome in the EU.

Don't guess then, it's in Alaska :)

Don't guess then, it's in Alaska Where the folks with the frozen brains live? :eek:

i cannot recall ever having had my door knocked on or beeing stopped on the streat by a strainger, trying to sell atheism. in fact the only thing other then christerism that was ever pushed at me, were a couple of guys selling incense, and even these, by comparison were welcomly un-obtrusive.

whatever there might be, i can see no connection with whatever anyone adamantly claims, without observable basis, to know.

by this i do not mean that anything cannot exist, only that those who claim to know its name, address and what it had for breakfast are a bunch of brainwashed loonies.

=^^=
.../\...

I think it's mostly just you, althought admittedly I have met a few atheists who seemed to think they had some sort of duty to make me renounce my beliefs. So infuriating. Many religious people behave in the same way, both regarding atheists and people with different religious views.

I just have a live and let live policy, myself, and mostly it works.

I think every type of belief has these kinds of people from Christians to Atheists, from Bush haters to Mac lovers. Its something we have to live with, though it can infuriate me sometimes.

For example, my ex-boyfriend. He didn't quite understand why I'd get so upset at him when he talked about " all Christians being hypocritical idiots that know absolutely nothing about science," and "Christians being racist people who hate gays." He'd talk about it every time I saw him. I don't think he understood that was probably not an appropriate thing to say to his girlfriend who is a Christian. He also tended to bring Bush into every argument we ever had, even if it had no relation to the subject matter. It was very annoying.

But, I just needed to get that off my chest.

However, not all atheists are like that. It would be wrong to assume that. It is also wrong to assume that all theists, whether they are Christain, Muslim, or Shinto, are pushy as well.

i cannot recall ever having had my door knocked on or beeing stopped on the streat by a strainger, trying to sell atheism. in fact the only thing other then christerism that was ever pushed at me, were a couple of guys selling incense, and even these, by comparison were welcomly un-obtrusive.

whatever there might be, i can see no connection with whatever anyone adamantly claims, without observable basis, to know.

by this i do not mean that anything cannot exist, only that those who claim to know its name, address and what it had for breakfast are a bunch of brainwashed loonies.

=^^=
.../\...Oh, I've had Mormons, JWs, Scientologists, Hare-Krishna-retards, Rastafarians, and a couple of Evangelicals whose respective groups I forgot the names of...
You really are lucky.

i cannot recall ever having had my door knocked on or beeing stopped on the streat by a strainger, trying to sell atheism. in fact the only thing other then christerism that was ever pushed at me, were a couple of guys selling incense, and even these, by comparison were welcomly un-obtrusive.

whatever there might be, i can see no connection with whatever anyone adamantly claims, without observable basis, to know.

by this i do not mean that anything cannot exist, only that those who claim to know its name, address and what it had for breakfast are a bunch of brainwashed loonies.

=^^=
.../\...

As ever Master Cameroi, your convoluted grammar contains the very essence of truth - I would enjoy a book written by your good self, please consider it.

United Beleriand: Where the folks with the frozen brains live?

Where the government pays you to live there - if it weren't so damn cold I'd move there myself :)

Oh, I've had Mormons, JWs, Scientologists, Hare-Krishna-retards, Rastafarians, and a couple of Evangelicals whose respective groups I forgot the names of...
You really are lucky.

Wow you have had Rastafarians trying to convert you - did they offer you some dope?

Don't guess then, it's in Alaska :)

Shame on me, then.:(

Hey... Alaska belonged to Russia in the XIX century - maybe some atheocommierussian genes are still around and have triggered a strong histaminic reaction in the True Followers of the American God, inshallah! ;)

Wow you have had Rastafarians trying to convert you - did they offer you some dope?

I offer spaghetti to many people... does this make me a Pastafarian?

I offer spaghetti to many people... does this make me a Pastafarian?

If you also toke makes you an Italiafarian :)

Pushy Atheists, trying to force thier views on everyone else. I guess this PROVES that Atheism is a religion. If not, It certainly sounds like one. At least they don't stand around on street corners, screaming out their beliefs at passerbys, and to date NO atheist has ever knocked on my door trying to convert me. That alone makes them superior to many other religionists.

Wow you have had Rastafarians trying to convert you - did they offer you some dope?Well, you can get high just by smelling their dreadlocks (including the eco-system in there)... and as soon as they open their mouths you can easily get flooded with bullshit...

If you also toke makes you an Italiafarian :)

I plead guilty.

Pushy Atheists, trying to force thier views on everyone else. I guess this PROVES that Atheism is a religion. If not, It certainly sounds like one. At least they don't stand around on street corners, screaming out their beliefs at passerbys, and to date NO atheist has ever knocked on my door trying to convert me. That alone makes them superior to many other religionists.

I think there's a video on teh youtube of some atheists doing just that, going door to door ala Jehovah's Witnesses.

I think there's a video on teh youtube of some atheists doing just that, going door to door ala Jehovah's Witnesses.

I'll be damned!:p I'll take your word for it, but I think I'll pass on looking up anything on youtube. Anyway, they still haven't bothered me so I still don't care.

I'll be damned!:p I'll take your word for it, but I think I'll pass on looking up anything on youtube. Anyway, they still haven't bothered me so I still don't care.

Yeah, I can't be arsed looking for it myself. But the idea amuses me. I think they try and pass "The Origin Of The Species" off as an atheist Bible.

Yeah, I can't be arsed looking for it myself. But the idea amuses me. I think they try and pass "The Origin Of The Species" off as an atheist Bible.

Amusing, agreed, but a blank book would be a better chioce of Atheist bible.

Amusing, agreed, but a blank book would be a better chioce of Atheist bible.
Or a bible with all occurrences of God, Lord, Jesus, etc cut out....

I think there's a video on teh youtube of some atheists doing just that, going door to door ala Jehovah's Witnesses.

We had a visit by Mormons today. They sadly declined to play Wiisports, but are returning next week. However, I have never seen a door to door atheist, so I declare your sources sketchy and your character dubious.
*folds arms*

We had a visit by Mormons today. They sadly declined to play Wiisports, but are returning next week. However, I have never seen a door to door atheist, so I declare your sources sketchy and your character dubious.
*folds arms*

Sauce (http://anxiousmofo.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/atheists-going-door-to-door-in-salt-lake-city/).

Sauce (http://anxiousmofo.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/atheists-going-door-to-door-in-salt-lake-city/).

Just lovely. :D


>And now: nuke SLC.

Sauce (http://anxiousmofo.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/atheists-going-door-to-door-in-salt-lake-city/).

Bah!

Where the folks with the frozen brains live? :eek:

My half-sister and Brother in law lived in Alaska and I can assure you that their brains were not frozen.

Bah!

*wins*

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?

It's just you. Most of the atheists you know don't even bother to address the subject.


Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.

You're on a DISCUSSION FORUM. Hint.


And Whats with people sounding off that they are atheist for no reason?
A recent thread asked people whether they lieing was a sin.
Now, sin is a commonly accepeted word for a bad thing.
But many atheists decide to post saying they couldn't answer the question because they didn't think it exist or they didn't believe in it.
Those post added no value to the thread. Did they really need to toot their own horn and announce their beliefs?
You're on A DISCUSSION FORUM.

If discussion makes you unhappy, go somewhere else.

1/10 for trolling.

It's just you. Most of the atheists you know don't even bother to address the subject.

Except when someone like the OP says something particularly stupid about atheism. If you're going through the thread (and I don't recommend it), you'll love it when Corny gets going on how atheists are just unenlightened and he'll be laughing when we're all roasting in hell. (I exaggerate, but not by much.)

My half-sister and Brother in law lived in Alaska and I can assure you that their brains were not frozen.It seems that feature jumped over to you...

Except when someone like the OP says something particularly stupid about atheism. If you're going through the thread (and I don't recommend it), you'll love it when Corny gets going on how atheists are just unenlightened and he'll be laughing when we're all roasting in hell. (I exaggerate, but not by much.)

I think the only inaccuracy is that corny didn't say atheists are unenlightened.

Except when someone like the OP says something particularly stupid about atheism. If you're going through the thread (and I don't recommend it), you'll love it when Corny gets going on how atheists are just unenlightened and he'll be laughing when we're all roasting in hell. (I exaggerate, but not by much.)
If "enlightened" means "I enjoy thinking about my fellow humans being roasted in Hell," then I think I'll stick to my barbaric, unenlightened practice of doing unto others as I would have done unto me.

But yeah, I find it adorable every time one of these superstitious trolls starts a thread full of insults against atheists, and then expresses surprise that atheists dare to talk about their beliefs in public forums.

The more ignorant and hateful people are toward atheists, the more loudly atheists will speak out against such behavior. The more people try to spread lies about atheism, the more you'll hear atheists piping up to confront them and expose their dishonesty.

It seems that feature jumped over to you...

:rolleyes: At least I am educated in matter of world affairs.

Is it just me or are Atheists always trying to push their "Religon" on other people?
Alot of times on these boards I will say something that shows my religious beliefs and then a ton of people start trying to convince me my views are wrong.

And Whats with people sounding off that they are atheist for no reason?
A recent thread asked people whether they lieing was a sin.
Now, sin is a commonly accepeted word for a bad thing.
But many atheists decide to post saying they couldn't answer the question because they didn't think it exist or they didn't believe in it.
Those post added no value to the thread. Did they really need to toot their own horn and announce their beliefs?
I believe this is in order.

http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/wrong.php?r=cegi&n=1st+Peacekeepers&c=%23FF0000&t=atheists

Sauce (http://anxiousmofo.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/atheists-going-door-to-door-in-salt-lake-city/).

This is a great video! They say what goes around, comes around.

This guy is really amusing.

:rolleyes: At least I am educated in matter of world affairs.

What do you want, the nobel prize? :rolleyes: I suppose being "religious" makes you knowledgeable of worldly affairs? I'm calling BS on this one because it stinks like last week's rancid leftover pizza left to soak in its own special juices.

What do you want, the nobel prize? :rolleyes: I suppose being "religious" makes you knowledgeable of worldly affairs?

Actually that was a NON-religious comment I made to UB Kryozerkia.

Actually that was a NON-religious comment I made to UB Kryozerkia.

With the way you've been debating the undertone was there. Even if you intended for it to not come off as it did, it still did in the end.

With the way you've been debating the undertone was there. Even if you intended for it to not come off as it did, it still did in the end.

But indeed it was non-religious! *shrugs* Not my problem however.

I believe this is in order.

http://www.megat.co.uk/wrong/wrong.php?r=cegi&n=1st+Peacekeepers&c=%23FF0000&t=atheists

I love you for showing me this interweb wonder. It'll make pointing out stupidity much more fun.

I love you for showing me this interweb wonder. It'll make pointing out stupidity much more fun.
Yay, vindication! :)

Then why is it you claim "no escape" for yourself? Perhaps I'm missing something. Why do you need to form an active "resistence"? Why feel threatened? Surely your beliefs in themselves are already an avenue away from the "lunacy" of the religious dogma? I must be misunderstanding.

Reasons Why The Resistance Is Needed (Short List):

1) Abstinence-only education and related sex stuff. A study released in early 2007 revealed that that federally-funded abstinence-only programs are not only completely ineffective, but also exclude and often completely distort medical information. At this time, no federal funds are dedicated to supporting sexuality education programs that both teach abstinence and include complete and medically accurate information about how to use contraceptives effectively, even though such programs have been consistently proven to work. Every single major American group which opposes comprehensive sex ed is religiously affiliated and will freely admit to religious motives behind their work. Atheists have kids. Atheists care about kids. Atheists give a shit when kids are being fed dangerous misinformation. Atheists give a shit when kids' lives are being intentionally put in danger because some crazy fucks think it's important to make young people hate their bodies and believe fucking is a sin.

2) Marriage equality. Much like the anti-miscegenation laws of previous generations, we currently have anti-marriage laws which ban certain citizens from enjoying equality under the law based exclusively on their gender and the gender of their partner. Every single major American group which opposes marriage equality is religiously affiliated.

3) Reproductive freedom. Yep, you guessed it, every single major American group which opposes a woman's right to choose is religiously affiliated. A list of the top anti-choice spokesmen will be surprisingly similar to a list of the top evangelical religious leaders in the US. Again, these individuals and organizations make absolutely no secret about their religious motives.

4) Federal funding and tax violations. A lot of religious organizations have basically become lobbying groups for political factions, yet they still (unConstitutionally) enjoy tax-exempt status simply because they are religious organizations. Our federal government also funds a large number of religious agendas. Remember, atheists pay taxes, too. This means that an atheist is forced to pay for religious agendas whether they like it or not, even though the US Constitution pretty clearly says that this should not be going on.

5) A thousand tiny cuts. In a thousand tiny ways, atheists and individuals of minority religious beliefs are marginalized and forced to give way before the pushy, selfish, disrespectful behavior of religious believers who think their personal beliefs belong in everybody's face. Here's just one example.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/29271prs20070330.html

By themselves, such issues are trivial. But there are so damn many of them. Every single day there is another believer crying about how oppressed they are when they are asked to chill the fuck out and quit invoking Jeebus during staff meetings.

(Yes, that's the SHORT list. Imagine, for a moment, what the long list must look like.)

Here's the key about all these items:

I don't advocate forcing ANYBODY to do things my way. Want to abstain from sex? Go for it! Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry somebody of your own gender! Don't like abortion? Don't have one!

And honestly, if you really find yourself compelled to talk about your personal superstitions all the time, then when we get right down to it I will defend your right to do that. I think you're being an asshole, but I also believe in freedom of speech, and I believe even assholes have the right to this freedom. Just remember that freedom of speech does not mean "freedom to say whatever I want and everybody else has to be nice to me." You can say what you want. And I can say what I want right back at you. So quit yer crying.

Atheists are loud and angry because there's a shitload of loud asshole believers who are imposing laws that violate our freedoms. We're not angry because some other person likes to believe in Gawd. We don't fucking care about that. We've got our own lives to live. We care when people make their beliefs our problem.

I really, really, really would love to not have to give a shit about superstition. I find it boring and annoying. But I am forced to care, and forced to speak out, because some superstitious people have decided it is their life's mission to get in my way. If you want me to shut up, all you got to do is shut them up.

Yay, vindication! :)

With some luck I'll be able to add it to mah sig. Though I may have to cut something. Cursed 1000 character limit.

Sigged.

Yay, vindication! :)

Now in 3 new exciting flavours! :)

...

Wow...

This is just so ironic I don't know what to say...

It's not ironic, just poorly written.

No, that is the issue. Atheists have no stake in it otherwise. There isn't a need for anyone to 'come to our side,' there isn't a come to the river element of atheism. Your belief or lack there of is not an issue for us, but it is for the faithful.

I think a lot of people confuse atheism and secularism.

When I get loud and uppity with believers, nine times out of ten it is actually because I'm advocating secularism. I want religious laws out of my damn country, because I don't think anybody should be legally required to bow down to any god(s) in any way. I want religious people and religious organizations to be expected to follow the same laws and rules as everybody else. I want the freedom to believe or not believe as I choose.

And you know what? A ton of religious people feel the same damn way.

Reasons Why The Resistance Is Needed (Short List):

1) Abstinence-only education and related sex stuff. A study released in early 2007 revealed that that federally-funded abstinence-only programs are not only completely ineffective, but also exclude and often completely distort medical information. At this time, no federal funds are dedicated to supporting sexuality education programs that both teach abstinence and include complete and medically accurate information about how to use contraceptives effectively, even though such programs have been consistently proven to work. Every single major American group which opposes comprehensive sex ed is religiously affiliated and will freely admit to religious motives behind their work. Atheists have kids. Atheists care about kids. Atheists give a shit when kids are being fed dangerous misinformation. Atheists give a shit when kids' lives are being intentionally put in danger because some crazy fucks think it's important to make young people hate their bodies and believe fucking is a sin.

2) Marriage equality. Much like the anti-miscegenation laws of previous generations, we currently have anti-marriage laws which ban certain citizens from enjoying equality under the law based exclusively on their gender and the gender of their partner. Every single major American group which opposes marriage equality is religiously affiliated.

3) Reproductive freedom. Yep, you guessed it, every single major American group which opposes a woman's right to choose is religiously affiliated. A list of the top anti-choice spokesmen will be surprisingly similar to a list of the top evangelical religious leaders in the US. Again, these individuals and organizations make absolutely no secret about their religious motives.

4) Federal funding and tax violations. A lot of religious organizations have basically become lobbying groups for political factions, yet they still (unConstitutionally) enjoy tax-exempt status simply because they are religious organizations. Our federal government also funds a large number of religious agendas. Remember, atheists pay taxes, too. This means that an atheist is forced to pay for religious agendas whether they like it or not, even though the US Constitution pretty clearly says that this should not be going on.

5) A thousand tiny cuts. In a thousand tiny ways, atheists and individuals of minority religious beliefs are marginalized and forced to give way before the pushy, selfish, disrespectful behavior of religious believers who think their personal beliefs belong in everybody's face. Here's just one example.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/29271prs20070330.html

By themselves, such issues are trivial. But there are so damn many of them. Every single day there is another believer crying about how oppressed they are when they are asked to chill the fuck out and quit invoking Jeebus during staff meetings.

(Yes, that's the SHORT list. Imagine, for a moment, what the long list must look like.)

Here's the key about all these items:

I don't advocate forcing ANYBODY to do things my way. Want to abstain from sex? Go for it! Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry somebody of your own gender! Don't like abortion? Don't have one!

And honestly, if you really find yourself compelled to talk about your personal superstitions all the time, then when we get right down to it I will defend your right to do that. I think you're being an asshole, but I also believe in freedom of speech, and I believe even assholes have the right to this freedom. Just remember that freedom of speech does not mean "freedom to say whatever I want and everybody else has to be nice to me." You can say what you want. And I can say what I want right back at you. So quit yer crying.

Atheists are loud and angry because there's a shitload of loud asshole believers who are imposing laws that violate our freedoms. We're not angry because some other person likes to believe in Gawd. We don't fucking care about that. We've got our own lives to live. We care when people make their beliefs our problem.

I really, really, really would love to not have to give a shit about superstition. I find it boring and annoying. But I am forced to care, and forced to speak out, because some superstitious people have decided it is their life's mission to get in my way. If you want me to shut up, all you got to do is shut them up.

Yes, but what's your point?

Atheists may defend but only Jesus saves

Yes, but what's your point?

Atheists may defend but only Jesus saves
Jesus saves, but Vishnu scores on the rebound.