NationStates Jolt Archive

Yeah, it's called "genre." Or "musical style." I closed both after only a couple seconds, as I didn't care for either.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers aren't rap. They might be rap-rock, but that's like saying rockabilly punk and rockabilly are the same thing. They are different styles, even if one incorporates elements of the other. I don't think Wilgrove likes any rap, whether it is by Public Enemy, Vanilla Ice, 50 Cent, Tupac or Eminem. I don't agree with him saying that it's not music, as why should I bash something just cause I don't like the way it sounds? I've had my music bashed enough to know how pointlessly mean that is. I don't like certain foods, but I don't bash them, I just don't eat them.

I agree with all of this. I was just pointing out that declaring rap to not be music while rock like the RHCP is is hypocritical.

I've heard quite a lot of rap. The old-school stuff I don't mind so much, but it's still not a kind of music I like really. I just avoid listening to it. Just like people who don't like metal should just not listen to it. Nothing to get worked up over.
Except those who dislike metal ought to have their heads checked. :D

I started making that post about 2 hours ago, in the middle of it, had to run to the store.

Just wanted you to know I wasn't pointing a finger at you.

I do hope some here will take a bit of time and listen to what I linked to tho, and feedback.

I didn't think you were, I was just stating that more exposure's not going to make me like it more. I still don't like brussel sprouts after all.

I was more pissed off at Hydesland for doing exactly what he/she was criticizing others for doing.

Rap music kicks ass as long as it is 90's gangsta rap or old school. Fuck all that other shit they have on the radio today.:headbang: That just makes me fall asleep.

I agree with all of this. I was just pointing out that declaring rap to not be music while rock like the RHCP is is hypocritical.

Yeah and declaring rap to not be music is just plain ignorant.

I agree with all of this. I was just pointing out that declaring rap to not be music while rock like the RHCP is is hypocritical.

Not necessarily. Rap is extremely lyrics focused, while even RHCP is less so. One of the reasons I don't like rap music is because I care much more about what the instruments are doing than what the vocals are (though sometimes bad vocals can ruin a band for me). In a lot of rap, there is not much going on as far as instruments go besides a steady beat and sound effects or a repeated synth figure. With RHCP, one could concievably ignore the vocals and just listen to the music.

Not necessarily. Rap is extremely lyrics focused, while even RHCP is less so. One of the reasons I don't like rap music is because I care much more about what the instruments are doing than what the vocals are (though sometimes bad vocals can ruin a band for me). In a lot of rap, there is not much going on as far as instruments go besides a steady beat and sound effects or a repeated synth figure. With RHCP, one could concievably ignore the vocals and just listen to the music.

won't work for him as he has explicitly rejected rap with musically accomplished live bands as being real music...when associated with black culture. though he'll be keeping the beastie boys, thank you very much.

won't work for him as he has explicitly rejected rap with musically accomplished live bands as being real music...when associated with black culture. though he'll be keeping the beastie boys, thank you very much.

The beastie boys? I don't care for them. What rap has musically accomplished live bands?

Does anyone know the original artist that performed the music in Nas 'I Know I Can' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gezq6R6FLIA) when the video starts and he's taking off his hood.. it's like for 3 or 4 seconds, before the beetoven part kicks in.. I've heard that before.. and want to know who it is.

I was a fiend before I became a teen
I melted microphones instead of cones of ice cream
Music orientated so when hip-hop was originated
Fitted like pieces of puzzles, complicated
cause I grabbed the mic and try to say, yes y'all
They tried to take it, and say that I'm too small
Cool, cause I don't get upset
I kick a hole in the speaker, pull the plug, then I jet
Back to the lab ...without a mic to grab
So then I add all the rhymes I had
One after the other one, then I make another one
To dis the opposite then ask if the brothers done
I get a craving like I fiend for nicotine
But I don't need a cigarette, know what I mean?
I'm raging, ripping up the stage and
Don't it sound amazing... cause every rhyme is made
and Thought of, cuz its sort of...an addiction,
Magnatized by the mixing
Vocals, vocabulary, your verses, you're stuck in
The mic is a drano, volcanoes erupting,
Rhymes overflowing, gradually growing
Everything is written in the cold, so it can coincide
My thoughts to guide,
48 tracks to slide
The invincible, microphone fiend Rakim
Spread the word, cause I'm in
E-f-f-e-c-t
A smooth operator operating correctly,
But back to the problem, I gotta habit,
You cant solve it, silly rabbit
The prescription is a hypertone thats thorough when
I fiend for a microphone like heroin
Soon as the bass kicks, I need a fix
Gimme a stage and a mic and a mix
And Ill put you in a mood or is it a state of
Unawareness? beware, its the reanamator!
A menace to a microphone, a lethal weapon
An assasinator, if the people aint stepping
You see a part of me that you never seen
When I'm fiening for a microphone, I'm the microphone feign...

(verse 2)
After 12, I'm worse than a gremlin
Feed me hip-hop and I start tremblin
The thrill of suspense is intense, your horrified
But this aint the cinemas of tales from the darkside,
By any means neccessary, this is what has to be done
Make way cause here I come....
My DJ cuts material....
Grand imperial.
Its a must that I bust any mic you hand to me,
Its inherited, its runs in the family
I wrote the rhyme that broke the bulls back,
If that don't slow em up, I carry a full pack.
Now I don't want to have to let off, you should of kept off
You didn't keep the stage warm, step off
Ladies and gentleman, you're about to see
A past time hobby about to be
Taken to the maximum, I can't relax see
I'm hype as a hypochondriac cause the rap be one-
Hell of a antidote, something you can't smoke
More than dope, you're trying to move away but you can't, you're broke
More than cracked up, you should have backed up
For those who act up need to be more than smacked up
Any entertainer, I got a torture chamber
One on one and I'm the remainder!
So close your eyes and hold your breath,
And I'm a hitcha wit the blow of death
Before you go, you'll remember you seen
The fiend of a microphone, I'm the microphone fiend

The microphone fiend...


RAKIM

an old but relevant article:
http://www.avclub.com/content/node/22909

an old but relevant article:
http://www.avclub.com/content/node/22909 Well no one is asking the Black Entertainment Channel to diversify itself (quite rightly). Sounds like freedom of association to me.

I didn't bash rap at all. I just said it doesn't sound good to me, that I don't like it. Other people do.

I think you're being the asshole here. Great job doing exactly the thing you were complaining about others doing.

I wasn't talking about you. I don't care at all if people don't like rap, but claiming it is not music is completely different and a complete doublestandard. I am not being hypocritical as i am not claiming that thrash metal is not music. I am saying if you go by the reasons rap isn't music by thrash metal fans, thrash metal is also not music.

Sounds like freedom of association to me.

and that is no defense of the obvious racism involved.

and that is no defense of the obvious racism involved. So is the BET racist as well?

I don't care at all if people don't like rap, but claiming it is not music is completely different and a complete doublestandard.

Yay!

It pleases me when people can be reasonable on this subject.

I don't even like rap most of the time, but I don't try to make like it isn't music.

I don't see it as necessarily racist not to like rap, myself.

So is the BET racist as well?

no

I don't see it as necessarily racist not to like rap, myself.

if you went around declaring that rap "wasn't music", that would almost certainly be. and if you held that rap isn't music but that the beastie boys are, the racism would be blinding

That's right, rap music or "hip hop" if you will is fucking awesome. Im a punk who loves MCs and DJs. I fucking hate pretentious wankers who look down on rap music and make stupid (subconsciously racist?) comments like "its not real music, its just someone talking". Shut up. You clearly know nothing. Being a good rapper is more than just talking; it relies on flow, pitch, timing, speed, enunciation, etc. I mean for fucks sake, one of you guys who criticise rappers for being untalentened try just talking over a beat and see how it compares.

Some people make legitimate criticisms over the content of rap music(glorification of street violence, sexist statements, homophobic remarks, bling bling culture etc). However this comes from an obsessive observance of a certain section of mainstream rap. Ultimately these criticisms are a product of a narrow view of a narrow segment of hip hop music as a whole. Many artists have socially uplifting messages, anti-drug messsages, political commentaries, etc. Just because some rappers who are funded by corporate record labels and given money for product placement get on tv and the radio and act like mysogynistic materialistic muggers doesnt mean that is what represents the overall rap community as a whole.

Peace. Ha.

I really can't resist this after such an inflamatory post. The fact that feel you need to swear to get your point across says a lot for a start. You are an angry person and dislike with intensity anyone who doesn't see things your way.

I NEVER listen to the words in Rap, HipHop or RNB because to my ears it all sounds like utter utter rubbish. Sure rap may take some talent to produce and perform but that doesn't mean at all that I have to like what I'm hearing. Therfore I hold no such opinion that rappers are all mysogynistic materlialistic muggers, only that what is assaulting my ears is rubbish.

I am sick of people who insist on playing this drivel to me and insisting that if I "just listen to it" I'll understand. I had one in my own car the other day for crying out loud playing it to me on her mobile phone. She eventually tried to prove it was good to me by asking the opinion of my five year old son who will say yes to just about anything if you ask in a positive enough tone.

So you like rap "music" good for you. Don't try and force it down my throat or you'll be drying out your MP3 player if you ever manage to retrieve it from the nearest drain.

i like some conscious rap if it's got some good beats and inspiring lyrics

I like some spoken word stuff as well

I really trip out on some of those hip hoppers that can start making shit up on the spot and have it make sense. it's not often, but some people can really put it together with mad style yo

if you went around declaring that rap "wasn't music", that would almost certainly be. and if you held that rap isn't music but that the beastie boys are, the racism would be blinding

Ah, well, I would hardly say that about it. I've certainly heard pieces that are harder to call music than even the worst rap.

if you went around declaring that rap "wasn't music", that would almost certainly be. and if you held that rap isn't music but that the beastie boys are, the racism would be blinding

Nah... people say rap isn't music because they don't like it and they are ignorant of what music is. Some racists say the same, but it's true for them as well.

The latter example is surely racist though since it shows a clear bias based not on music but race.

one rap band I liked a song or two from is Blackalicious - they have a song that is specifically about not writing songs about 'killin niggas" even though their sound will be called "bubblegum" - although they bothere me because sometimes I feel they are being too preachy in a Christian-like way.

Nah... people say rap isn't music because they don't like it and they are ignorant of what music is. Some racists say the same, but it's true for them as well.

The latter example is surely racist though since it shows a clear bias based not on music but race. If rap is inherently a black thing and metal is inherently a white thing, then… well… I'm joining VNN! :p

I even like the mainstream "shit" rap.

50 cent...

At first I was like. D:

Then the beat kicked in and I started nodding my head.

Then the lyrics came and I was like: "Omgzorg stupid mainstream gibbrish."

Then I listened again and heard that there was something to be heard.

And then I was like: :D

I like the Sugarhill Gang.

Does that count?

Nah... people say rap isn't music because they don't like it and they are ignorant of what music is.

well, maybe. but the case gets pretty clear if they keep holding that it isn't music, rather than admitting that they really just mean they don't like it - especially if they start offering nonsensical qualifications for what makes something music or not that they can't even apply consistently across their own musical tastes.

well, maybe. but the case gets pretty clear if they keep holding that it isn't music, rather than admitting that they really just mean they don't like it - especially if they start offering nonsensical qualifications for what makes something music or not that they can't even apply consistently across their own musical tastes.

Yeah.

And a reason people do this with rap and not others (when was the last time you heard someone say rock or techno isn't music?) is often because they don't like the "swear words" and "black culture" and - ultimately - just don't like blacks.

That's right, rap music or "hip hop" if you will is fucking awesome. Im a punk who loves MCs and DJs. I fucking hate pretentious wankers who look down on rap music and make stupid (subconsciously racist?) comments like "its not real music, its just someone talking". Shut up. You clearly know nothing. Being a good rapper is more than just talking; it relies on flow, pitch, timing, speed, enunciation, etc. I mean for fucks sake, one of you guys who criticise rappers for being untalentened try just talking over a beat and see how it compares.

Some people make legitimate criticisms over the content of rap music(glorification of street violence, sexist statements, homophobic remarks, bling bling culture etc). However this comes from an obsessive observance of a certain section of mainstream rap. Ultimately these criticisms are a product of a narrow view of a narrow segment of hip hop music as a whole. Many artists have socially uplifting messages, anti-drug messsages, political commentaries, etc. Just because some rappers who are funded by corporate record labels and given money for product placement get on tv and the radio and act like mysogynistic materialistic muggers doesnt mean that is what represents the overall rap community as a whole.

Peace. Ha.

Well there are some rappers I listen to (Tricky being my favorite). I think rap makes for great music and even has potential as an art form (by exploring the use of the voice as a rhythmic instrument). But, it doesn't excuse the problems with modern hip hop culture. Not all rappers act like mysogynistic materialistic muggers but many do, and they have far more influence than they deserve.

Yeah.

And a reason people do this with rap and not others (when was the last time you heard someone say rock or techno isn't music?) is often because they don't like the "swear words" and "black culture" and - ultimately - just don't like blacks.

Exactly, like I said when FS posted that video of Dead Prez, many, including Wilgrove, probably decided that it wasn't art based on the appearance of the artists.

Exactly, like I said when FS posted that video of Dead Prez, many, including Wilgrove, probably decided that it wasn't art based on the appearance of the artists.


I liked what this kid did:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aU9m5JI_3R4

I liked what this kid did:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aU9m5JI_3R4

Why would a kid want to go from musician to non-musician like that?

Backing Jay Z with guitar = guilt by association.

Why would a kid want to go from musician to non-musician like that?

Backing Jay Z with guitar = guilt by association.

how does making up a tune to play along with a rap song make him a non-musician? :confused:


besides... don't you want the president to represent you?

how does making up a tune to play along with a rap song make him a non-musician? :confused:


besides... don't you want the president to represent you?

Don't know, perhaps you can ask someone who said that rap isn't music, even when there is a live backing band.

Right. I'm now going to prove my point.

Dave Melillo; go check out purevolume.com/davemelillo. This is music, Jay-Z is not.

Don't know, perhaps you can ask someone who said that rap isn't music, even when there is a live backing band.



o i c - well some people are very stubborn when it comes to things they dont personally like and will never be able to admit that they are just being lame. it's more fun just to point and laugh at people like that - I shall demonstrate - *points and laughs*

Right. I'm now going to prove my point.

Dave Melillo; go check out purevolume.com/davemelillo. This is music, Jay-Z is not.

I don't need to check out anything to know that you are wrong.

I don't need to check out anything to know that you are wrong.

Thats simply lazy.

Thats simply lazy.

No, bringing up examples is pointless when have ridiculous definitions of what is and what isn't music.

No, bringing up examples is pointless when have ridiculous definitions of what is and what isn't music.

Trust me on this one, he's not the only one with ridiculous definitions of what IS and isn't music.

Trust me on this one, he's not the only one with ridiculous definitions of what IS and isn't music.

Now that I have listened to his example, I think his may be the most ridiculous.

I was thinking that there would be some lush instrumentation, some immaculate song structure, some guitar virtuousity, or just some really good songwriting.

What I got was a hack imitation of Dashboard Confessional.

Evidently, however, you still can't be arsed to actually check the real music I'm allowing you an insight into.

Oh don't worry, I have heard that guy's songs a million times. Other people were playing them, though.

No, bringing up examples is pointless when have ridiculous definitions of what is and what isn't music.

Evidently, however, you still can't be arsed to actually check the real music I'm allowing you an insight into.

Just because I like the examples:

Music or Not (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3050395108425839498&q=street+drumming)

Just because I like the examples:

Music or Not (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3050395108425839498&q=street+drumming)

cool

Just because I like the examples:

Music or Not (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3050395108425839498&q=street+drumming)

Yes, however, its also not to my tastes.

I hated the stage production of the "Lion King", I hate dance hall, I hate reggae, I hate r n'b, I hate rap, I hate hip hop, I hate that tribal wank thats thrown down my ears on television, and hence the above sounds like Satan breaking wind.

Yes, however, its also not to my tastes.

Well at least you admit it is music.

I hate that tribal wank thats thrown down my ears on television, and hence the above sounds like Satan breaking wind.

What "tribal wank" would that be?

Oh don't worry, I have heard that guy's songs a million times. Other people were playing them, though.

Oh right. Not black, oppressed, poor, and thus not a chance to nail yourself to the cross of the underclass of society, and suddenly you're not interested.

Oh right. Not black, oppressed, poor, and thus not a chance to nail yourself to the cross of the underclass of society, and suddenly you're not interested.

I tend to lose interest in anything that is bland, boring, and unoriginal.

I tend to lose interest in anything that is bland, boring, and unoriginal.

Indeed. Hence why you love rap.

Very well done.

Indeed. Hence why you love rap.

Very well done.

That you cannot spot or enjoy inventive music is not a knock on my musical taste.

Well at least you admit it is music.



What "tribal wank" would that be?

All that Afro-Carribbean garbage that seems to be in vogue as "dynamic music" for dramas.

What "tribal wank" would that be?
Don't feed the racist trolls.

All that Afro-Carribbean garbage that seems to be in vogue as "dynamic music" for dramas.

I am not sure what you are talking about, but you just ooze racism.

Don't feed the racist trolls.

But it is fun watching them try to squirm away from the label.

I am not sure what you are talking about, but you just ooze racism.

Not at all. I class new age pagan music under the same label.

Not at all. I class new age pagan music under the same label.

No, your still a fucking racist Captain "me and my racist friends would leave the country if a black man was elected."

Not at all. I class new age pagan music under the same label.

Do you now?

All I know is that you listed Dance Hall, Raggae, RnB, Rap, Hip-Hop, the stage production of Lion King, and Afro-Carribean "tribal wank" as the music you hate, and I can't quite ignore the pattern.

Do you now?

All I know is that you listed Dance Hall, Raggae, RnB, Rap, Hip-Hop, the stage production of Lion King, and Afro-Carribean "tribal wank" as the music you hate, and I can't quite ignore the pattern.

Hardly my fault they're all shite, is it?

No, your still a fucking racist Captain "me and my racist friends would leave the country if a black man was elected."

I disagree with the racist part.

The leave the country part stands.

Hardly my fault they're all shite, is it?

yes, it's all just a coincidence.

I disagree with the racist part.

The leave the country part stands.

how is that in any way not racist?

Hardly my fault they're all shite, is it?

Yes, yes it is.

Unless you aren't claiming responsibility for your racism, but that is for another argument.

Because I defy the will of any non-white, non-middle class politcian to reflect by principles.
Again, how is that not racist.

yes, it's all just a coincidence.

In short, yes. I dislike Death Metal; does that mena I discriminate against people with long hair?

how is that in any way not racist?

Because I defy the will of any non-white, non-middle class politcian to reflect by principles.

Again, how is that not racist.

It's a statement of fact. My principles reflect my upbringing, and hence only those who have shared something of the same reflect my political principles.

I'd also emigrate if a socialist government was elected, if its any consolation.

Just because I like the examples:

Music or Not (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3050395108425839498&q=street+drumming)

That dude needs to do guest drums for my band. I don't know on what, but he's awesome. If we didn't already have a full time drummer, I'd say "who is that dude? he needs to join my band!"

Not at all. I class new age pagan music under the same label.

Um... the only overtly pagan music I know of is metal, like Enslaved and Amon Amarth. I'm sure there is some other pagan stuff, but I've never heard any pagan rap... most rappers I know of profess to be Christians.

Um... the only overtly pagan music I know of is metal, like Enslaved and Amon Amarth. I'm sure there is some other pagan stuff, but I've never heard any pagan rap... most rappers I know of profess to be Christians.
...

I think he's referring to artists like Enya.

...

I think he's referring to artists like Enya.

I thought that was considered new age.

I wasn't talking about you. I don't care at all if people don't like rap, but claiming it is not music is completely different and a complete doublestandard. I am not being hypocritical as i am not claiming that thrash metal is not music. I am saying if you go by the reasons rap isn't music by thrash metal fans, thrash metal is also not music.

I never said it wasn't music, jerk. I've repeatedly stated on this very thread that I thought saying that it wasn't music was silly, just as it would be stupid for me to say that spinach isn't food just cause I don't like it. As far as I can see, no thrash metal fans have been on here to say "rap isn't music!" (though certainly some individuals have said such, but they don't seem to be thrash fans either), while you have been bashing metal twice now. Hypocrite.

I thought that was considered new age.

Not at all. I class new age pagan music under the same label.

I'm not too fond of it either.

Take all rappers. Eliminate rappers who don't write their own lyrics. Eliminate rappers that don't write their own music. Eliminate rappers who don't play their music on instruments(or have bands that do so). eliminate one-hit wonders.

What you have left is rappers with talent. Eliminate those who won't still be making new albums ten years from now.

What you have left is Good rappers with talent.

So, who do we have left?

Lots.

Lots.

Of corpses.

If rap is inherently a black thing and metal is inherently a white thing, then… well… I'm joining VNN! :p

Neither is. In rap there's been the Beastie Boys, Eminem, Vanilla Ice, etc. In metal there's God Forbid, Blasphemy, an awesome Japanese black metal band I can't remember the name of right now, Orphaned Land, Sepultura, etc.

I would prefer we just forget race altogether. Music is about sound, so the color of one's skin shouldn't define genres.

Of corpses.

My God, MC Hawking is a zombie!

I'm not too fond of it either.

oh yeah I missed that.

I am curious as to how new age and pagan are considered the same thing

pagan or pagani means "country-dwellers": those that didnt live in the cities which were becomming predominantly christian

oh yeah I missed that.

I am curious as to how new age and pagan are considered the same thing

pagan or pagani means "country-dwellers": those that didnt live in the cities which were becomming predominantly christian
It's associated with Wicca I suppose ( a new age religion itself, often referred to as a form of neopaganism - focusing on worship of the earth, amongst other things ). Some of the genre's artists, like Loreena McKennitt (although she is more Celtic folk than pagan) are actually amazing. Enya can be sublime as well, but a lot of her work is too New Age for me.

Take all rappers. Eliminate rappers who don't write their own lyrics. Eliminate rappers that don't write their own music. Eliminate rappers who don't play their music on instruments(or have bands that do so). eliminate one-hit wonders.

What you have left is rappers with talent. Eliminate those who won't still be making new albums ten years from now.

What you have left is Good rappers with talent.

So, who do we have left?

De La Soul
A Tribe Called Quest
Wu Tang Clan
Gang Starr
Run DMC
Public Enemy
Erik B. and Rakim
Black Star
The Roots
Kanye West
Outkast
Cee Lo Green
Dead Prez
The Coup
Common
Lauryn Hill
Wyclef Jean
P. Diddy
Jermaine Dupri
Dr. Dre
Kool G Rap
Nas
The Pharcyde
The Neptunes
Prince Paul
Mobb Deep
Beastie Boys
Handsome Boy Modelling School

To name some while sticking to your arbitrary rule that they must play their own instruments. That eliminates some rock legends, as well.

Perhaps you would try the same approach with rock?


I would like to further prove that your requirements do not signify talent:

purevolume.com/davemelillo for example.

If you don't like a certain kind of music, why try to say it's not music? Why not just say you don't like it? Certainly everyone has certain foods that they don't care for, but they don't deny the fact that these dishes are food.

If you don't like a certain kind of music, why try to say it's not music? Why not just say you don't like it? Certainly everyone has certain foods that they don't care for, but they don't deny the fact that these dishes are food.

Actually, I dispute the foodiness of tofu.

Actually, I dispute the foodiness of tofu.

Well, it's clearly edible and can provide sustainence. On what grounds? Sure, it's bland, but I know of some music that is too.

Nice one, lol.

Rap is great! Read these awesome lyrics! Focus on the bolded part.

[Eminem]
A lot of people ask me.. stupid fuckin questions
A lot of people think that.. what I say on records
or what I talk about on a record, that I actually do in real life
or that I believe in it
Or if I say that, I wanna kill somebody, that..
I'm actually gonna do it
or that I believe in it
Well, shit.. if you believe that
then I'll kill you
You know why?
Cuz I'm a

CRIMINAL
CRIMINAL
You god damn right
I'm a CRIMINAL
Yeah, I'm a CRIMINAL

[Eminem]
My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head
whether you're a fag or lez
Or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest
Pants or dress - hate fags? The answer's "yes"
Homophobic? Nah, you're just heterophobic
Starin at my jeans, watchin my genitals bulgin (Ooh!)
That's my motherfuckin balls, you'd better let go of em
They belong in my scrotum, you'll never get hold of em
Hey, it's me, Versace
Whoops, somebody shot me!
And I was just checkin the mail
Get it? Checkin the 'male'?
How many records you expectin to sell
after your second LP sends you directly to jail?
C'mon!-- Relax guy, I like gay men
Right, Ken? Give me an amen (AAA-men!)
Please Lord, this boy needs Jesus
Heal this child, help us destroy these demons
Oh, and please send me a brand new car
And a prostitute while my wife's sick in the hospital
Preacher preacher, fifth grade teacher
You can't reach me, my mom can't neither
You can't teach me a goddamn thing cause
I watch TV, and Comcast cable
and you ain't able to stop these thoughts
You can't stop me from toppin these charts
And you can't stop me from droppin each March
with a brand new cd for these fuckin retards
Duhhh, and to think, it's just little ol' me
Mr. "Don't Give A Fuck," still won't leave
[Chorus: Eminem (repeat 2X)]

I'm a CRIMINAL
Cuz every time I write a rhyme, these people think it's a crime
to tell em what's on my mind - I guess I'm a CRIMINAL
but I don't gotta say a word, I just flip em the bird
and keep goin, I don't take shit from no one

[Eminem]
My mother did drugs - tar, liquor, cigarettes, and speed
The baby came out - disfigured, ligaments indeed
It was a seed who would grow up just as crazy as she
Don't dare make fun of that baby cause that baby was me
I'm a CRIMINAL - an animal caged who turned crazed
But how the fuck you sposed to grow up when you weren't raised?
So as I got older and I got a lot taller
My dick shrunk smaller, but my balls got larger
I drink malt liquor to fuck you up quicker
than you'd wanna fuck me up for sayin the word nigga
My morals went thhbbpp when the president got oral
Sex in his Oval Office on top of his desk
Off of his own employee
Now don't ignore me, you won't avoid me
You can't miss me, I'm white, blonde-haired
and my nose is pointy
I'm the bad guy who makes fun of people that die
in plane crashes and laughs
As long as it ain't happened to him
Slim Shady, I'm as crazy as Em
-inem and Kim combined - [*kch*] the maniac's in
Replacin the doctor cause Dre couldn't make it today
He's a little under the weather, so I'm takin his place
(Mm-mm-mmm!) Oh, that's Dre with an AK to his face
Don't make me kill him too and spray his brains all over the place
I told you Dre, you should've kept that thang put away
I guess that'll teach you not to let me play with it, eh?
I'm a CRIMINAL

[Interlude Skit]
Aight look (uh huh) just go up in that motherfucker
get the motherfuckin money and get the fuck up outta there
[Em] Aight
I'll be right here waitin on you
[Em] Aight
Yo Em
[Em] What?!
Don't kill nobody this time
[Em] Awwright... god damn, fuck...
(whistling) how you doin'?
[Teller] HI, how can I help you?
[Eminem] Yeah I need to make a withdrawl
[Teller] Okay
[Eminem] Put the fuckin money in the bag bitch
and I won't kill you!
[Teller] What? Oh my god, don't kill me
[Eminem] I'm not gonna kill you bitch, quit lookin around...
[Teller] Don't kill me, please don't kill me...
[Eminem] I said I'm not gonna fuckin kill you
Hurry the fuck up! [*BOOM*] Thank you!

[Eminem]
Windows tinted on my ride when I drive in it
So when I rob a bank, run out and just dive in it
So I'll be disguised in it
And if anybody identifies the guy in it
I'll hide for five minutes
Come back, shoot the eyewitness
Fire at the private eye hired to pry in my business
Die, bitches, bastards, brats, pets
This puppy's lucky I didn't blast his ass yet [*dog whines*]
If I ever gave a fuck, I'd shave my nuts
tuck my dick inbetween my legs and cluck
You motherfuckin chickens ain't brave enough
to say the stuff I say, so just tape it shut [*tape unrolls*]
Shit, half the shit I say, I just make it up
To make you mad so kiss my white naked ass
And if it's not a rapper that I make it as
I'ma be a fuckin rapist in a Jason mask

[Chorus 2X]

Yes...an excellent song. I do so hope you're joking.

Yes...an excellent song. I do so hope you're joking.
No, lol. I LOVE rap, and Eminem is one of my favorites. His style is so unique and provacative, I love it.

See, the thing is, lyrics are never really the point for me. When I talk about loving a certain song, it's mainly for the music. Good lyrics are sort of a bonus. They'd have to be especially bad to ruin an otherwise good song. Whereas, a song can have amazing lyrics, but if the music doesn't satisfy me, I'm not going to be digging the song. My favorite song of all actually doesn't have very good lyrics, but it's awesomely epic.

See, the thing is, lyrics are never really the point for me. When I talk about loving a certain song, it's mainly for the music. Good lyrics are sort of a bonus. They'd have to be especially bad to ruin an otherwise good song. Whereas, a song can have amazing lyrics, but if the music doesn't satisfy me, I'm not going to be digging the song. My favorite song of all actually doesn't have very good lyrics, but it's awesomely epic.

Some of my favorite songs have no lyrics at all.

What bugs me about rap is that they almost never use decent sounding or interesting music to back up their lyrics. There's no reason they can't; they just choose not to. About the only rap song that I like is Crabbuckit, by K-os, mainly because they actually put some effort into the music. It even has a saxophone solo. If more rap was like that, I could probably appreciate it, but as it is all I hear is the same four notes played over and over again with no variation whatsoever.

Some of my favorite songs have no lyrics at all.

What bugs me about rap is that they almost never use decent sounding or interesting music to back up their lyrics. There's no reason they can't; they just choose not to. About the only rap song that I like is Crabbuckit, by K-os, mainly because they actually put some effort into the music. It even has a saxophone solo. If more rap was like that, I could probably appreciate it, but as it is all I hear is the same four notes played over and over again with no variation whatsoever.

You may not hear the creativity, but groups like Public Enemy brought Musique Concrete and Free Jazz into the pop lexicon for a while (although, it's just WRONG to call Public Enemy Pop).

I think it's reasonable to say that rap and traditional Western music are two very different musics and that it is not necessarily fair to expect one to conform to the standards of the other.

I think it's reasonable to say that rap and traditional Western music are two very different musics and that it is not necessarily fair to expect one to conform to the standards of the other.

I disagree. What is "traditional Western" music? Country-western, folk music? Rap is made and was created by the so-called Western culture. It is every bit as part of western tradition - its harmonies stem directly from the line of musical harmony that's been popular for almost a century now. Tonality, base, and musical form are western.

It's different from other genres yes, but its all the same really.

"The Knight's Tale" was a piece of clichéd, chauvinistic crap when first it was wrote, and, ye, so it remains today.

Cf. "The Wife of Bath's Tale", from the same work.

That's right, rap music or "hip hop" if you will is fucking awesome. Im a punk who loves MCs and DJs. I fucking hate pretentious wankers who look down on rap music and make stupid (subconsciously racist?) comments like "its not real music, its just someone talking". Shut up. You clearly know nothing. Being a good rapper is more than just talking; it relies on flow, pitch, timing, speed, enunciation, etc. I mean for fucks sake, one of you guys who criticise rappers for being untalentened try just talking over a beat and see how it compares.

Some people make legitimate criticisms over the content of rap music(glorification of street violence, sexist statements, homophobic remarks, bling bling culture etc). However this comes from an obsessive observance of a certain section of mainstream rap. Ultimately these criticisms are a product of a narrow view of a narrow segment of hip hop music as a whole. Many artists have socially uplifting messages, anti-drug messsages, political commentaries, etc. Just because some rappers who are funded by corporate record labels and given money for product placement get on tv and the radio and act like mysogynistic materialistic muggers doesnt mean that is what represents the overall rap community as a whole.

Peace. Ha.

I've quoted him before, and I'll quote him again: Rap/hip hop is "a great musical stench."--Morrissey

Peace out :p

About the only rap song that I like is Crabbuckit, by K-os, mainly because they actually put some effort into the music. It even has a saxophone solo. If more rap was like that, I could probably appreciate it, but as it is all I hear is the same four notes played over and over again with no variation whatsoever.
You should try out the rest of that album, Joyful Rebellion. It's fantastic, very musical. And he's got a new one out, Atlantis: Hymns for Disco. Old school rappage, then some soulful crooning...good stuff like this exists, you just got to DIG....like in most cases when it comes to music these days, unfortunately.

sorry for bumping this thread but it's the perfect opportunity to post this (http://en.sevenload.com/videos/KRTCk7Q/Where-my-dogs-at) video.

That's right, rap music or "hip hop" if you will is fucking awesome. Im a punk who loves MCs and DJs. I fucking hate pretentious wankers who look down on rap music and make stupid (subconsciously racist?) comments like "its not real music, its just someone talking". Shut up. You clearly know nothing. Being a good rapper is more than just talking; it relies on flow, pitch, timing, speed, enunciation, etc. I mean for fucks sake, one of you guys who criticise rappers for being untalentened try just talking over a beat and see how it compares.

I think most rap is trash. But I also think most pop, punk, rock, country, jazz, and everything else is trash. I don't think an individual rap song is any more likely to be trash than any other song, no matter the genre.

Rap culture sucks, in my opinion, but so does classic rock culture. Sexist, racist, homophobic, you name it...it's crap. But, again, I don't think rap is unique in this respect, and I think it's BS that people whine about how racist/sexist/homophobic rap is while listening to rock music that is all that and more.


Some people make legitimate criticisms over the content of rap music(glorification of street violence, sexist statements, homophobic remarks, bling bling culture etc). However this comes from an obsessive observance of a certain section of mainstream rap. Ultimately these criticisms are a product of a narrow view of a narrow segment of hip hop music as a whole. Many artists have socially uplifting messages, anti-drug messsages, political commentaries, etc. Just because some rappers who are funded by corporate record labels and given money for product placement get on tv and the radio and act like mysogynistic materialistic muggers doesnt mean that is what represents the overall rap community as a whole.

Peace. Ha.
Here's the thing: most rap music doesn't have any noble purpose. Most rap music isn't about sending some awesome message. But that's because most MUSIC isn't about those things. Most music is some yahoo making noise because it feels good. Sometimes said noise is pleasurable to others.

snip

Yeah, basically. It's just another musical genre. Some like a lot of it, some don't. I happen to fall into the latter group.

Rap culture sucks, in my opinion, but so does classic rock culture. Sexist, racist, homophobic, you name it...it's crap. But, again, I don't think rap is unique in this respect, and I think it's BS that people whine about how racist/sexist/homophobic rap is while listening to rock music that is all that and more.

Modern rock doesn't even have a culture, other than what it appropriated from rap.

Modern rock doesn't even have a culture, other than what it appropriated from rap.

Excuse me?

It may not be homogenous, but I genuinely beg to differ.

In any case, go listen to Hadouken!. They've changed my opinion on rap a little.

Modern rock doesn't even have a culture, other than what it appropriated from rap.
That depends - goth and punk rock (or metal), for instance, both have associated cultures. However, rock is fragmented into many subgenres, so as Chris said, it's by no means homogeneous.

I love rap music
For some reason, I read that as "I fap to rap music"...

I'm still a teenager but just a few years ago I was going through a pathetic little phase, wanting to get into rap 'music'. I thought it was so great. But my dad didn't let me listen to any of it, he described it as mindless crap. Now I realise just how right he was, I don't know how anybody could possibly want to listen to that noise. What the hell was I thinking?

I'm still a teenager but just a few years ago I was going through a pathetic little phase, wanting to get into rap 'music'. I thought it was so great. But my dad didn't let me listen to any of it, he described it as mindless crap. Now I realise just how right he was, I don't know how anybody could possibly want to listen to that noise. What the hell was I thinking?

You sound like some one who graduated to black metal.

You sound like some one who graduated to black metal.
No, I'm not. From what I've listened of black metal, a lot of it's even worse than rap.

That depends - goth and punk rock (or metal), for instance, both have associated cultures. However, rock is fragmented into many subgenres, so as Chris said, it's by no means homogeneous.

My apologies, I meant "mainstream" not "modern".

However, I would argue that most followers of metal, goth, and punk rock are not adherents to their respective "associated cultures", and any rock group that wishes to succeed needs to abandon any of that culture.

What is the goth and metal cultures, by the way?

I understand the punk culture, but have not seen any semblance of its prevalence in years.

No, I'm not. From what I've listened of black metal, a lot of it's even worse than rap.
Ugh, and just having read about the sort of shit some of the black metal scum have got up to, I say some of those degenerates need putting in front of a firing squad. Murders and church burnings ffs.

My apologies, I meant "mainstream" not "modern".

However, I would argue that most followers of metal, goth, and punk rock are not adherents to their respective "associated cultures", and any rock group that wishes to succeed needs to abandon any of that culture.

What is the goth and metal cultures, by the way?

I understand the punk culture, but have not seen any semblance of its prevalence in years.
Goth (usually goes hand in hand with metal culture nowadays) varies a lot even within the group - for instance, it can vary between technopunks, metalheads, the traditional stereotypical goth who dresses in elaborate outfits (Victorian etc), and so on. It tends to have individualistic currents (left as well as right; but political awareness is not overly acute), and is very nihilistic on certain levels; there is also the tendency to be polite as well as confrontational and antisocial (deliberately). It's about as fragmented as the genres of metal and hard rock themselves. We have specific clubs and bars catering to our tastes too (for instance, some of the Victorian goths I mentioned go to clubs which replicate a vampire-like feel).

However, it's true that most metal fans don't adhere to such cultures. But by simply dropping any adherence to such cultures, bands will only deprive themselves of their core fanbase, especially in Europe; I'm not so sure what you get up to over in the States.

Ugh, and just having read about the sort of shit some of the black metal scum have got up to, I say some of those degenerates need putting in front of a firing squad. Murders and church burnings ffs.

:rolleyes:

Ugh, and just having read about the sort of shit some of the black metal scum have got up to, I say some of those degenerates need putting in front of a firing squad. Murders and church burnings ffs.

Just goes to show you get scum in virtually any cross-section of society you like to take. Whether it's your "gangsta rapper" wanting to pop a cap in someone or those sad fucks. There are people who will use anything they can as an excuse for commiting heinous acts against others.

Thing is with almost every type of music there's a subculture built up around it and often it's the subculture people are drawn to not the music itself. They learn to like the music because it makes them fit in.

For example: I used to like mainstream chart music, but I was into bikes and got on with the other bikers and I found after a while that I really liked rock and heavy metal music whereas previously I had maintained it was just noise. Also learning to play an electric guitar helped with that too.

I doubt however that I'll be learning to rap any time soon as I really dont like it, I wont explain why in this post as I'd only be repeating myself. I am definately not "all about the bling" as one of my "hip hop" friends(aquaintances?) put it. I don't really fit in with that crowd, but then again I really don't want to fit in with them, I like some of the people personally, good friends with some too, but we agree to turn our noses up at each other's musical tastes and leave it at that. Some still try to "convert" me though by playing rap and hiphop at me at every given opportunity and saying repeatedly "you like this really don't you?" (they usually contrive to look offended or just blank when I say "no").

No, I'm not. From what I've listened of black metal, a lot of it's even worse than rap.

I quite thoroughly disagree (listens to and plays black metal).

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. I don't like cooked carrots. That doesn't mean they're bad. I don't like most punk rock either (though I do like some). It's not bad, just not what suits my taste.

I disagree. What is "traditional Western" music? Country-western, folk music? Rap is made and was created by the so-called Western culture. It is every bit as part of western tradition - its harmonies stem directly from the line of musical harmony that's been popular for almost a century now. Tonality, base, and musical form are western.

Classical, for example. If you were to judge a rap song against a Bach fugue, after all, it wouldn't be much of a contest. However, I don't think fans of rap evaluate it in the same way Bach's work typically is.

No, I'm not. From what I've listened of black metal, a lot of it's even worse than rap. It has its fair share of childish pseudo-rebellion, yes. Which is why I don't listen to it anymore. Power metal is about as inoffensive as you can get, unless of course you like good fantasy poetry or something.

I don't think it's fair to label all people who dislike rap as closet racist though. I really don't like rap and I was just listening to some Ethiopian guy. But it's obvious that the "bad culture" of rap is a hell of a lot bigger than with pretty much anything else. How often do you get Dimmu Borgir committing ride-by shootings against Immortal? Even though they're pricks.

I’m still a teenager but just a few years ago I was going through a pathetic little phase, wanting to get into rap ‘music’. I thought it was so great. But my dad didn’t let me listen to any of it, he described it as mindless crap. Now I realise just how right he was, I don’t know how anybody could possibly want to listen to that noise. What the hell was I thinking?
You, and your Dad, were probably thinking rap solely consisted of gangsta-rap and pathetic wannabes such as 50 Cent, while missing the huge diversity of rhyme. Ranging from the Beastie’s to Dose One, from the Roots to Josh Martinez, from Buck 65 to Public Enemy, from Blackalicious to Jurassic 5. Rap is so much more than guns and bling.

If someone really just doesn’t like rap, then that’s obviously cool; music is subjective. But dismissing the whole genre from an unrepresentative listen to some gangsta, or even questioning it’s status as music is just silly. Like never listening to any rock because you dislike Linkin Park, or not listening to any electronic music because you don’t like Paul van Dyke.

Rhyme does not equate to poetry. The highest form of poetry is blank verse, thus Rap has no poetic merits as a medium.
So just because rap does not utilize what you have described as the "highest form of poetry" (whatever the fuck that means), i.e. blank verse, it has no poetic merits? What you've basically established here is that for any sort of poetry to have merit, it must be written in blank verse. Basically, you've condemned not only rap, but the majority of all poetry. Tell me, is there some kind of coven where people only listen to music in blank verse? Because you're the first person I've ever heard condemn poetry for rhyming.

Pertinent to diction, Rap is not so much eloquent as like shitting on the linguistic exertions of millenia of intellectuals.
So just because rap is typically expressed using a different dialect of language than has been widely spoken throughout history automatically means that it is simply a decimation of linguistics? Any student of the field would label you an uninformed pretentious idiot upon hearing that.

Thus, we must turn to thematic expression, and musical expression, both of which, in Rap are thoroughgoingly predictable and, for the most part, limited at best.
Predictability is no ground to attack rap on: all forms of music, from classical to rock, are predictable in their style and what sort of elements the listener can expect when he or she puts them on. The fact that a certain type of music sounds alike from artist to artist, song to song, does not make it poor: it just means that the style at hand can be referred to as a genre. Ever hear the word?

Your attempted critiques of rap music are simply a pile of arrogant mumbo-jumbo masquerading as informed analysis.

Your attempted critiques of rap music are simply a pile of arrogant mumbo-jumbo masquerading as informed analysis.
RMM, meet TBC. :p

You, and your Dad, were probably thinking rap solely consisted of gangsta-rap and pathetic wannabes such as 50 Cent, while missing the huge diversity of rhyme. Ranging from the Beastie’s to Dose One, from the Roots to Josh Martinez, from Buck 65 to Public Enemy, from Blackalicious to Jurassic 5. Rap is so much more than guns and bling.
And that is to mention nothing of the rising section of "nerdcore" like MC Frontalot, Optimus Rhyme, MC Chris, and others.

And that is to mention nothing of the rising section of “nerdcore” like MC Frontalot, Optimus Rhyme, MC Chris, and others.
And rap is only a tiny part of the huge culture of hip-hop. Seems a shame to miss out on DJing, breakdancing, graffiti, scratching, and much more just because of some ignorant gangsta wannabe.

Classical, for example. If you were to judge a rap song against a Bach fugue, after all, it wouldn't be much of a contest. However, I don't think fans of rap evaluate it in the same way Bach's work typically is.

Classical music might be seen as "traditional western culture," but it is a culture of the past. Long past. What is traditional modern western culture? The one we traditional western people are supposed to listen to, besides that apparently non-western rap?

Western rap. All about how his wife left him, took the dog, and burned down their trailer :D

Classical music might be seen as "traditional western culture," but it is a culture of the past. Long past. What is traditional modern western culture? The one we traditional western people are supposed to listen to, besides that apparently non-western rap?

I guess you don't watch any movies that have orchestral soundtracks then?

Classical music is not as dominant as it used to be, but it is still very much here. Otherwise why would the New York Philharmonic exist? People are still actually writing music for orchestras, though the radio stations only play older stuff (usually they ignore the 20th century altogether, which is the period in which my favorite composers wrote). It's not any more dead than Jazz is.

Classical, for example. If you were to judge a rap song against a Bach fugue, after all, it wouldn't be much of a contest. However, I don't think fans of rap evaluate it in the same way Bach's work typically is.

I don't think they're really comparable. Like comparing a Da Vinci to a Polluck really. They're both art, but share few elements other than the medium.

It has its fair share of childish pseudo-rebellion, yes. Which is why I don't listen to it anymore. Power metal is about as inoffensive as you can get, unless of course you like good fantasy poetry or something.

I don't think it's fair to label all people who dislike rap as closet racist though. I really don't like rap and I was just listening to some Ethiopian guy. But it's obvious that the "bad culture" of rap is a hell of a lot bigger than with pretty much anything else. How often do you get Dimmu Borgir committing ride-by shootings against Immortal? Even though they're pricks.

All genres have their downside. Not liking rap doesn't make you a racist any more than not liking power metal does. Music is an art form, and what constitutes "good" art is almost entirely subjective.

Personally, I think most black metal bands worth listening to have moved past the childish rebellion. Immortal, for instance, has for a long time now written songs about their made up little ice-kingdom rather than satan. Yes, some of those black metallers have said some pretty silly things, but I listen to it because I like the way it sounds.

Western rap. All about how his wife left him, took the dog, and burned down their trailer :D

Hey, I heard a country version of 'Gin and Juice' once...hilarious!

And rap is only a tiny part of the huge culture of hip-hop. Seems a shame to miss out on DJing, breakdancing, graffiti, scratching, and much more just because of some ignorant gangsta wannabe.

Exactly, DJs like Cut Chemist are extremely talented and worth listening to on their own.