NationStates Jolt Archive

I hate to tell you this but Anthony Keidis raps in front of a band without playing an instrument.

His rapping is some of the most asinine shit I have ever heard, as well.

I like some of RHCP's stuff, but you are shooting your argument down with some of your examples.

I know he does, I don't listen to his 'rap', I just listen to RHCP.

No I am not. Hmm lets look at some of the great rock bands. Evanescence is a good one, there's also Red Hot Chile Peppers, Dead Presidents, Presidents of the United States (they sang the 'peaches' song. You know "Going to the country, going eat alot of peaches...), KISS, Chicago, AC/DC, Nine Inch Nails, Korn. Several great rock bands that beat the crap out of Rap.

KORN!? Are you fucking kidding me? *same rift for how many years*

You're bringing up a band whose smash hit was a song about peaches, yes I loved it, but there is absolutely no substance or style to it. There's no wit to that song whatsoever, and in fact Ninjas jump out of nowhere in the video.

Chile Peppers are good, but I raise you see that, and raise you 2pac.

Kansas and Journey > Chicago

You've never listened to rap and your prejudices are like needles in my side. Opinion comes up nowhere in your arguement and because you don't like it, it must therefore be "crap". Grow up.

Yea yea, I've heard it all he's susspose to "shock" us, because he wants to sound like a bad ass. Meanwhile, after he's done sounding 'bad ass' in the crappy "three minutes conversations" that he writes, he goes home to his mansion in Hollywood behind a gate and concrete wall.

You can't even get what I am saying, it is totally lost on you.

Is there anyone who is non-racist on NS by your standards?

If you disagree with Free Soviets on an issue, you are a racist. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I got called a racist right now. Even though I'm not even in the debate.

Eh at least Nickleback actually writes not only the lyrics, but eh, the music to go along with the lyrics. They didn't just "sample" (steal) a 'beat' from other music for their song.

Nickleback lyrics are revolve around some crappy teenage love they had, and it hasn't changed since they came out.

You don't listen to rap, so I don't understand how you can even hate it outside of just guessing what it's really about. But, god forbid, we tolerate another style/culture.

Is there anyone who is non-racist on NS by your standards?

Can you tell me any difference between "Suck my Kiss" and that song that FS linked to?

I can think of a big one, but people get mad when someone brings that up.

Here's a question for the lot of you: how do you establish whether music is good or bad?

You can't even get what I am saying, it is totally lost on you.

I think the point you're trying to find is that he is completely, unreservedly and eternally right.

If you disagree with Free Soviets on an issue, you are a racist. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I got called a racist right now. Even though I'm not even in the debate.

STFU, racist.

I think the point you're trying to find is that he is completely, unreservedly and eternally right.

Another person who brings no logic to the table. Welcome! Welcome!

Shall I set up your cross burning Adolf?

Here's a question for the lot of you: how do you establish whether music is good or bad?

You can't, it's all opinion.

Can you tell me any difference between "Suck my Kiss" and that song that FS linked to?
Intrinsically? No. Preference-wise? Wilgrove may have a completely different opinion as to how good the piece is to another individual. Musical taste is subjective.

You can't even get what I am saying, it is totally lost on you.

No see, I get exactly what you're saying, you're saying that "Kill you" is susspose to have meaning, and that somehow, by using all of these cuss words, that it's susspose to be cleaver wordplay. However, let's face it, you're trying to see something in these lyrics that just aren't there, they're really aren't. Now I admit "Stan" was the best of his three minute conversations, and almost bearable to listen to, but the rest of his three minute conversations just don't have any cleaver wordplay, they don't have any 'special' meaning, or anything. It's just mass produced rap.

If you disagree with Free Soviets on an issue, you are a racist. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I got called a racist right now. Even though I'm not even in the debate.

Do you ever stop making snide remarks and bring something to the conversation?

You are the same poster who has made the "Anarcho-waaaaaaaaaaaah" comment in the last 50 Anarchism threads, aren't you?

First the Jews, now the 'racist' comment. What next, Godwin?

you chose a white group that does a significant amount of rapping as an example of a band that "beats the crap out of rap". what do you want me to think?

Intrinsically? No. Preference-wise? Wilgrove may have a completely different opinion as to how good the piece is to another individual. Musical taste is subjective.

A better question:

Would you categorize "Suck my Kiss" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000C1733001007/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_007/102-0691033-7064953) as rap music?

Another person who brings no logic to the table. Welcome! Welcome!

Shall I set up your cross burning Adolf?

Excuse me?

Just because I choose to listen to music does not mean I prance around in a silly white hood and cape.:rolleyes:

Nickleback lyrics are revolve around some crappy teenage love they had, and it hasn't changed since they came out.

You don't listen to rap, so I don't understand how you can even hate it outside of just guessing what it's really about. But, god forbid, we tolerate another style/culture.

Just because you 'tolerate' it doesn't mean that you can't hate it. Hell I hate it when I sit next to a crying baby on an airplane, but I 'tolerate' it because I know that if I start ranting and screaming at the child, then I'm going to appear like an asshole, and rightly so.

you are a racist and i claim my ten dollars

Good point. You caught wilgrove. He just hates them goddamn nigras. Or something.


How the FUCK is Wilgrove racist?

Can you tell me any difference between "Suck my Kiss" and that song that FS linked to?

i've got one - i don't believe anyone in rhcp is a maoist

Here's a question for the lot of you: how do you establish whether music is good or bad?

1. Has to have actual words in it, that has actual meaning pretaining to the song. None of the "I'm going to drink some 40's and then I'm going to shoot some niggers, and then I'm going home to smack my bitch because she won't give me any."

2. Actual instruments (not 10 second "sample" (stealing) of other music)

3. Have to have actual pitch and tone that changes from normal talking range.

4. Some drum and guitar solos don't hurt.

1. Has to have actual words in it, that has actual meaning pretaining to the song. None of the "I'm going to drink some 40's and then I'm going to shoot some niggers, and then I'm going home to smack my bitch because she won't give me any."


Since when does a song need lyrics to be good? Metallica instrumentals are/were awesome.

DMX, Grandma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EH-Kh8jwjk)

2pac, Changes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snTEe_D-SI8)

Just a taste.

A better question:

Would you categorize "Suck my Kiss" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000C1733001007/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_007/102-0691033-7064953) as rap music?
It sounds like bad pop to me.

Just because you 'tolerate' it doesn't mean that you can't hate it. Hell I hate it when I sit next to a crying baby on an airplane, but I 'tolerate' it because I know that if I start ranting and screaming at the child, then I'm going to appear like an asshole, and rightly so.

Just like you're doing now about Rap music.

/case

you chose a white group that does a significant amount of rapping as an example of a band that "beats the crap out of rap". what do you want me to think?

That you make leaps in logics that even Evil Knievel couldn't make, when he was in his prime?

I think the point you're trying to find is that he is completely, unreservedly and eternally right.

No see, I get exactly what you're saying, you're saying that "Kill you" is susspose to have meaning, and that somehow, by using all of these cuss words, that it's susspose to be cleaver wordplay. However, let's face it, you're trying to see something in these lyrics that just aren't there, they're really aren't. Now I admit "Stan" was the best of his three minute conversations, and almost bearable to listen to, but the rest of his three minute conversations just don't have any cleaver wordplay, they don't have any 'special' meaning, or anything. It's just mass produced rap.

While the lyrical content is important (and his is substantially better than most of the bands you listed), it is the cadence, assonance, and alliteration that goes into lines like "I'm going to pull you to this bullet and put it through you" that makes it so fucking impressive.

you chose a white group that does a significant amount of rapping as an example of a band that "beats the crap out of rap". what do you want me to think?

That he prefers the more rock portion of RHCP over pure rap?

1. Has to have actual words in it,

Wow! Symphonies are not real music.


2. Actual instruments (not 10 second "sample" (stealing) of other music)

You don't know what stealing is nor sampling at all. Please, just stop. You're way out of your league here.

3. Have to have actual pitch and tone that changes from normal talking range.

So, shouting would be OK. Since it's away from that awful, awful set of frequencies you arbitrarily call "normal talking range."

4. Some drum and guitar solos don't hurt.

...so, again, all symphonies are not real music. No drum or guitar solos.

Congrats, Wilgrove. You're an uneducated asshole.

Since when does a song need lyrics to be good? Metallica instrumentals are/were awesome.

That is true, and I agree, they did kick ass.

Congrats, Wilgrove. You're an uneducated asshole.

He ain't the only one, believe me.

1. Has to have actual words in it, that has actual meaning pretaining to the song. None of the "I'm going to drink some 40's and then I'm going to shoot some niggers, and then I'm going home to smack my bitch because she won't give me any."


Tell me he isn't racist.

While the lyrical content is important (and his is substantially better than most of the bands you listed), it is the cadence, assonance, and alliteration that goes into lines like "I'm going to pull you to this bullet and put it through you" that makes it so fucking impressive.

No it doesn't, it just makes him look like an ass and an idiot.

you chose a white group that does a significant amount of rapping as an example of a band that "beats the crap out of rap". what do you want me to think?

See the amazing Free Soviets!

Watch as he attempts leaps of logic never before seen in the NSG circus!!

Cheer as he throws out the term racist like confetti at those that don't applaud!!!

No I am not. Hmm lets look at some of the great rock bands. Evanescence is a good one, there's also Red Hot Chile Peppers, Dead Presidents, Presidents of the United States (they sang the 'peaches' song. You know "Going to the country, going eat alot of peaches...), KISS, Chicago, AC/DC, Nine Inch Nails, Korn. Several great rock bands that beat the crap out of Rap.


RHCP are very rap influenced originally but slowly became more generic rock. AC/DC did 3 chord songs about doing women and drinking, obviously very talented. Do KISS even make music? I thought it was just anothr business. Korn are very rap influenced but also shit, melodramtic i hate myself bullshit. Nine Inch Nails are a little better and the guys basically rapping most the time.

See the amazing Free Soviets!

Watch as he attempts leaps of logic never before seen in the NSG circus!!

Cheer as he throws out the term racist like confetti at those that don't applaud!!!

Don't forget that his posts are, much like his music, without merit.

While the lyrical content is important (and his is substantially better than most of the bands you listed), it is the cadence, assonance, and alliteration that goes into lines like "I'm going to pull you to this bullet and put it through you" that makes it so fucking impressive.

No it doesn't. If I spoke in an accent that maimed the most basic of syllables, I could do the same.

No it doesn't. If I spoke in an accent that maimed the most basic of syllables, I could do the same.

I'm sure you could, why don't you?

While the lyrical content is important (and his is substantially better than most of the bands you listed), it is the cadence, assonance, and alliteration that goes into lines like "I'm going to pull you to this bullet and put it through you" that makes it so fucking impressive.
But these are your criteria, are they not? As Luporum stated, musical tastes are highly subjective. I am not agreeing with Wilgrove, but it's somewhat presumptuous to fault a person for not liking a certain type of music.

I hate Bjork, for instance. She's a good artist. Her work may be considered music, but it is not the sort of music I'd ever listen to. I'd rather listen to someone strangling a puppy.

And no, people who react negatively based on prejudices are racist.

Most people don't like rap because they don't like black culture, just stop dancing around the heart of the matter and admit it.

Wow! Symphonies are not real music.

I like symphonies.

You don't know what stealing is nor sampling at all. Please, just stop. You're way out of your league here.

Sampling is where you take 10 minutes of instruments and loop it over and over and over. Also there has been claims that 'rappers' steal music from other rappers, or other actual bands, so I have a bit of a clue of what's going on.

So, shouting would be OK. Since it's away from that awful, awful set of frequencies you arbitrarily call "normal talking range."

Yea, Gun and Roses.

...so, again, all symphonies are not real music. No drum or guitar solos.

Congrats, Wilgrove. You're an uneducated asshole.

I said it couldn't hurt to have those. Congratulations, you like to read what you want to read instead of what's actually there. Also calling me an 'asshole' doesn't exactly help your argument.

Tell me he isn't racist.
I would if white (or even asian) rappers did not use lyrics that were so similar to that.

I'm sure you could, why don't you?

Because I'm not at all captivated by the thought of parading around like a jumped up cliche.

And no, people who react negatively based on prejudices are racist.

Most people don't like rap because they don't like black culture, just stop dancing around the heart of the matter and admit it.

Okay, I admit it. I don't like the drug-dealing, gun-toting, woman whoring-out, beating the shit out of people fantasy that passes itself off as "black culture".

If you seriously consider rap black culture, we're not the racist ones.

Tell me he isn't racist.

Eminem writes the same meaningless crap, so no.

Because I'm not at all captivated by the thought of parading around like a jumped up cliche.

Believe it or not, 'talking fast', is singing. Ever listen to System of a Down?

Right, and if you had such talent I'm sure your pride would let you turn down millions of dollars and several rap labels. Face it, you can't rap.

I concur.I believe the Dicks said it best: "You're spending all your fuckin' time with school, those lessons you learn are making you a fool."

No offence, but seriously people.. If it provokes a strong & intended emotional response from the audience, it's "The highest form of poetry". The craftmanship & method means fuck all. Senseless gits like you with no opinion of your own, is the reason why the image of a fuck-ugly dead chick with no eyebrows is worth more than any of you will ever see in your life.

Want to see fantastic craftmanship? Go out your frontdoor, turn around & open your eyes. Thousands of years of destilled technical innovation, craftmanship & raw talent produced the box you live in. If you knew as much about that as you think you know about art, you'd be wiping cumstains off your crotch every 3 seconds. Because unless you live in a hole in the ground in a vast desolate desert, you're surrounded by shit far more evolved, refined & complex than any of your classical wank'll ever be.

Close your eyes. Forget what you've been told. Listen & use your intuition. If it makes sense & you find it compelling, then it's for you. If it doesn't, then don't bother with it, but don't begrudge others for being able to appreciate something you can't - unless it's just some weird form of penis envy you lot've got going?

Okay, I admit it. I don't like the drug-dealing, gun-toting, woman whoring-out, beating the shit out of people fantasy that passes itself off as "black culture".

If you seriously consider rap black culture, we're not the racist ones.

That isn't all rap is if you listened to either of the songs I posted a few pages back. You've just shown me how little you comprehend Rap.

Most people don't like rap because they don't like black culture, just stop dancing around the heart of the matter and admit it.

What is black culture by your definition?

And no, people who react negatively based on prejudices are racist.

Most people don't like rap because they don't like black culture, just stop dancing around the heart of the matter and admit it.

My sarcasm detector is broken. PLEASE tell me you're joking.

No it doesn't, it just makes him look like an ass and an idiot.

Bullshit. Those are some of the basic fundamentals of poetry. Did Whitman look like an ass and an idiot when he penned: "The smallest sprout shows there is really no death"?

Your hang ups that cause you to call Eminem talentless are in the culture the espouses and the words he utilizes, and not rooted in any judge of his actual talent.

Senseless gits like you with no opinion of your own, is the reason why the image of a fuck-ugly dead chick with no eyebrows is worth more than any of you will ever see in your life.
And you made all these illogical inferences from a single sentence I typed? Or are these mere generalisations?

Believe it or not, 'talking fast', is singing. Ever listen to System of a Down?

Right, and if you had such talent I'm sure your pride would let you turn down millions of dollars and several rap labels. Face it, you can't rap.

I might just go and hang myself now. Oh deary fucking me, I can't pretend to be black. However will I cope oh capricious muse?

And no, people who react negatively based on prejudices are racist.

Most people don't like rap because they don't like black culture, just stop dancing around the heart of the matter and admit it.

Your argument would be true if I said that I hated Dr. Dre, Snopp Dogg, or NWA, but love Eminem. However, I said that I hated all form of raps, which include blacks, whites, asian, European, so your argument has no bases, and once again, someone use the 'race' card. So that makes 1 Jew, and two Race. Let's go for a Godwin next and just seal the deal.

That isn't all rap is if you listened to either of the songs I posted a few pages back. You've just shown me how little you comprehend Rap.

Why are we capitalizing rap? You did in the last bit. What the fuck? Is rap some sort of divine gift?


Rap. Is. Shit. End. Of. Story.

That he prefers the more rock portion of RHCP over pure rap?

he didn't say that. and he'd have to rule out what, like 60% of their hit songs to get away from the fact that they are rap group. even the largely non-rap ones have significant rap portions.

What is black culture by your definition?

I believe rap is partially an expression of black culture consider that's exactly where it rises from. From the poor and oppressed "2pac", to the more fortunate "Jay-Z".

Now go ahead I pretend I said: "Black peoplz shoot up hoez and ar Gangstar!". But nowhere did I say that, and leaping on that invisible phrase just shows me how weak the "anti-rap" arguements really are.

Taste is subjective, you don't like it, don't listen. Also don't try to smite people who like it, which is exactly what these counter points have been about.

I might just go and hang myself now. Oh deary fucking me, I can't pretend to be black. However will I cope oh capricious muse?

It takes skill to do, not everyone can do it. It's a unique talent. My point is ------------- across.

he didn't say that. and he'd have to rule out what, like 60% of their hit songs to get away from the fact that they are rap group. even the largely non-rap ones have significant rap portions.

he also didn't say he hated blacks. if you can make large inferences about racism, why not about that? ...

But these are your criteria, are they not? As Luporum stated, musical tastes are highly subjective. I am not agreeing with Wilgrove, but it's somewhat presumptuous to fault a person for not liking a certain type of music.

I hate Bjork, for instance. She's a good artist. Her work may be considered music, but it is not the sort of music I'd ever listen to. I'd rather listen to someone strangling a puppy.

First off, he is completely denying the artistic qualities behind rap music, which is what I am refuting.

Secondly, subjective opinions are the only one's worth arguing, no?

I like symphonies.


Big deal. According to you, they aren't (good) music. Since they don't have words at all.

You may not be aware of this, but the post you were responding to asked you to define how you know if music is good or bad. You said first that it needs to have actual words, etc etc.


Sampling is where you take 10 minutes of instruments and loop it over and over and over.

Utter nonsense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28music%29#Types_of_samples).

Also there has been claims that 'rappers' steal music from other rappers, or other actual bands

Claims of musical theft are not limited to any genre whatsoever.

Yea, Gun and Roses.

So you're saying that if rap music was transposed into screaming, it'd be good music. But since it's "normal talking range," it's not even music at all.

How many years have you studied, written, recorded and performed music, again? Zero, right?

Also calling me an 'asshole' doesn't exactly help your argument.

My argument is done. Your "argument" was "LOL RAP IS CRAP! HAHA!" Doesn't exactly need a lot to 'refute.'

See the sad thing is you like to think of yourself as some sort of badass cuz you like rock. ROCK ON! But you whine like a 10 year old Catholic schoolgirl because rap sometimes contains "cuss" words. As I've said, whine all you like - but your opinion means nothing. Rap is music, even if you are offended by it.

Repetition ad nauseam will not change this fact. You have been pwnz0red. Move on.

And no, people who react negatively based on prejudices are racist.

Most people don't like rap because they don't like black culture, just stop dancing around the heart of the matter and admit it.

no, i don't like rap, but i do like some non-rap hip hop music, and jazz.
if i don't like modern art produced by white people, would that be because i hate white culture?

Bullshit. Those are some of the basic fundamentals of poetry. Did Whitman look like an ass and an idiot when he penned: "The smallest sprout shows there is really no death"?

Whitman was talking about how even plant life could grow in a desolate place that has no sign of life. Eminem, eh, he's just talking about shooting his mom, beating his wife, and fucking Dr. Dre. Eminem is no Whitman.

Your hang ups that cause you to call Eminem talentless are in the culture the espouses and the words he utilizes, and not rooted in any judge of his actual talent.

Once Eminem picks up an instrument, plays it while he sings, and I mean actual singing, not talking fast, and he actually writes not only the lyrics, but the tunes to go with the song, then I'll reevaluate my judgment, but until then.

Why are we capitalizing rap? You did in the last bit. What the fuck? Is rap some sort of divine gift?


Rap. Is. Shit. End. Of. Story.

In my opinion it is.

Frustrate you can't change someone's opinion? Then tolerate and accept it like a decent human being.

I hate emo music, but I don't go around kicking Emo kids and telling them how evil they are.

he didn't say that. and he'd have to rule out what, like 60% of their hit songs to get away from the fact that they are rap group. even the largely non-rap ones have significant rap portions.

Wow, another death defying leap in logic!

no, i don't like rap, but i do like some non-rap hip hop music, and jazz.
if i don't like modern art produced by white people, would that be because i hate white culture?

Possibly, but I was referring to how people blindly hate rap without ever trying to listen to it. Perhaps because they don't like the culture behind it, and had they taken the time to listen. They just might hear something unique and beautiful, which is the very essence of music.

I hate emo music, but I don't go around kicking Emo kids and telling them how evil they are.

I'm very disappointed in you Luporum.;)

Eminem writes the same meaningless crap, so no.

C'mon, lumping a handful of whites into a predominantly black medium doesn't make you seem less racist.

I'm very disappointed in you Luporum.;)

In my more young and vulnerable years I did, but I matured unfortunately. Now I spend my time beating up the elderly. :D

C'mon, lumping a handful of whites into a predominantly black medium doesn't make you seem less racist.

I wasn't aware he was racist in the first place.

But instead of attacking perhaps hypocrisy (liking RHCP even though they have rap), you guys pull a race card. Smooth.

And you made all these illogical inferences from a single sentence I typed? Or are these mere generalisations?You agreed rap isn't poetry (and possibly not music either?) because not all rap conforms to some bullshit standard for what "the highest form of poetry" is.

It's a desperate attempt at inventing some sort of standard enabling you to classify, judge & cover up the fact that some art defies your understanding. It's not an opinion, it's a defence against ever having to formulate one.

Possibly, but I was referring to how people blindly hate rap without ever trying to listen to it. Perhaps because they don't like the culture behind it, and had they taken the time to listen. They just might hear something unique and beautiful, which is the very essence of music.

I've listen to rap, I've listen to Snopp, Eminem, Dr. Dre, D12, as well as MC Hammer, V-Ice, and NWA. Trust me, it sucks.

I've listen to rap, I've listen to Snopp, Eminem, Dr. Dre, D12, as well as MC Hammer, V-Ice, and NWA. Trust me, it sucks.

I like that stuff. (except for V-Ice, that man does not represent rap or humanity for that matter lol).

Why do you have to try to force people to hate what you hate?

Brilliant song, listen. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snTEe_D-SI8)

I might just go and hang myself now. Oh deary fucking me, I can't pretend to be black. However will I cope oh capricious muse?

See this bullshit.

You implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) link rap music with blacks, yet when we expose your stereotypes against rap music, it doesn't make you racist.

This is the same sort of self-denial that cause people to say "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

he also didn't say he hated blacks. if you can make large inferences about racism, why not about that? ...

because the only functional distinction between rhcp and rap is their earlier acceptance by white audiences. same with the beastie boys, for that matter.

a few years back on q101 in chicago there was some sort of huge issue over whether they could play eminem. it wasn't their format, see. and then "coming up next is 'intergalactic' by the beastie boys".

if i see evidence that a person who claims "rap is not music" doesn't consistently hold this opinion across easily observable racial lines, i'm going to call them on it.

C'mon, lumping a handful of whites into a predominantly black medium doesn't make you seem less racist.

How do you not get me by now, If I hate blacks, I will say that I hate black. See, this is my deal, I do not beat around the bush, I do not hide my true feelings from people, I am very direct and brutally honest with people. If I hate black, trust me, you will hear me saying that I hate blacks. However, I do not, so I will not say it. Move on, the race card isn't winning you any points.

Secondly, subjective opinions are the only one's worth arguing, no?
Only if you accept that a person has as much a right to a negative opinion of something as does someone to formulate a positive one.

The problem here being is that objective standards of quality are near-impossible to establish! Is Coke better than Pepsi? Some people hate one or the other. Why? It does not appeal to their taste. But can you seriously expect much of a rationalisation behind it? You may argue that rap has intrinsic value as a form of music, but for that to work you'd have to first define music (as much as someone who is arguing that a blank canvass has value as a piece of art would need to first define it). If you and Wilgrove cannot agree on that even, progress is impossible.

Gosh. That's original. If in doubt start bashing emo. Because it's complicit to gang killings, ride-by shootings, organized crime and anti-intellectualism.....

The way your bashing someone else's opinion. Look up, that's where the point went.

I hate emo music, but I don't go around kicking Emo kids and telling them how evil they are.

Gosh. That's original. If in doubt start bashing emo. Because it's complicit to gang killings, ride-by shootings, organized crime and anti-intellectualism.....

No. Its a position buttressed and validated by centuries of academic opinion.

:p

You agreed rap isn't poetry (and possibly not music either?) because not all rap conforms to some bullshit standard for what "the highest form of poetry" is.

It's a desperate attempt at inventing some sort of standard enabling you to classify, judge & cover up the fact that some art defies your understanding. It's not an opinion, it's a defence against ever having to formulate one.

No. Its a position buttressed and validated by centuries of academic opinion.

he also didn't say he hated blacks. if you can make large inferences about racism, why not about that? ...

It is rather easily deduced from his comments.

He considers rock groups that share all of the characteristics of rap to be music, while rap groups that share all of the characteristics of rock are not music.

Unless you can show me this is not some implicit degredation of black culture, I will continue to assume his exclusion of rap to be racially motivated.

I like that stuff. (except for V-Ice, that man does not represent rap or humanity for that matter lol).

Why do you have to try to force people to hate what you hate?

Brilliant song, listen. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snTEe_D-SI8)

I don't try to force people to dislike what I dislike, I'm just telling you guys why I dislike it. I really don't care what you listen to. I honestly don't, I'm just telling you guys my opinions, and we all know what they say about opinions.

I don't try to force people to dislike what I dislike, I'm just telling you guys why I dislike it. I really don't care what you listen to. I honestly don't, I'm just telling you guys my opinions, and we all know what they say about opinions.

There's a difference between saying you dislike this kind of music, and saying it's just bad.

I respect the prior, but all I've been seeing was "Rap is crap." "Rap is shit."

and then with the oh so intellectual reply. "Well it is."

See this bullshit.

You implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) link rap music with blacks, yet when we expose your stereotypes against rap music, it doesn't make you racist.

This is the same sort of self-denial that cause people to say "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

Actually, I don't. At all, and no, I don't feel a big gaping hole in my psyche beacuse of it.

Secondly, you try to extricate Rap from black ethnic culture and history.

because the only functional distinction between rhcp and rap is their earlier acceptance by white audiences. same with the beastie boys, for that matter.


so instead of calling out hypocrisy, you call racism. nice. gotta love the race card. I mean, he didn't even MENTION race, you did. why such a focus on race?

You agreed rap isn't poetry (and possibly not music either?) because not all rap conforms to some bullshit standard for what "the highest form of poetry" is.
Poetry it is not. Music? That's up for debate. I do not like it, nor will I ever like it. Same goes with pop, most emo music, a lot of black metal and so on.

It's a desperate attempt at inventing some sort of standard enabling you to classify, judge & cover up the fact that some art defies your understanding. It's not an opinion, it's a defence against ever having to formulate one.
When a person usually evokes a statement such as "some art defies your understanding" they have a definition of art in mind and assume it is the be-all and end-all of all definitions. How fucking presumptuous. I have formulated an opinion on the matter; whether or not rap (or the 'alternative' genre or pop etc.) is music is irrelevant to me - I simply do not like it.

It is rather easily deduced from his comments.
Unless you can show me this is not some implicit degredation of black culture, I will continue to assume his exclusion of rap to be racially motivated.

Anyone remember in the Phantom Tollbooth where they jump to the island of conclusions? That's Vittos's posts in a nutshell.

:p

Point won. You presuppose that all opinions are equally meritorious, post-modernist twat that you are. I accept that prosodists, literary critics and intellectuals are the best equipped to make judgements upon prosody.

Well, I gotta thank DHomme for providing this thread. And for folks like Wilgrove to prove him utterly correct. I'm gonna go back to composing music.

Point won. You presuppose that all opinions are equally meritorious, post-modernist twat that you are. I accept that prosodists, literary critics and intellectuals are the best equipped to make judgements upon prosody.

You can use as many big words as you want, but opinion has no meassure that can be used to level and grade styles of art. We can agree that Vanilla Ice sucked, but that doesn't make us right. Nor does it give us the right to bash his fanship.

Whitman was talking about how even plant life could grow in a desolate place that has no sign of life. Eminem, eh, he's just talking about shooting his mom, beating his wife, and fucking Dr. Dre. Eminem is no Whitman.

Thanks for proving my point that you are not judging his talent on its merits, but on the offense you take to his lyrics.

Once Eminem picks up an instrument, plays it while he sings, and I mean actual singing, not talking fast, and he actually writes not only the lyrics, but the tunes to go with the song, then I'll reevaluate my judgment, but until then.

I don't think Eminem particularly cares for you asinine opinion as to what categorizes "music".

The way your bashing someone else's opinion. Look up, that's where the point went.

Still unable to actually see my point. What does emo/scene/ post-hardcore actually do to anybody else? Rob them? Mug them? Burgle them? Shoot them? Don't think so.

Still unable to actually see my point. What does emo/scene/ post-hardcore actually do to anybody else? Rob them? Mug them? Burgle them? Shoot them? Don't think so.

Stereotyping is so easy when you don't spend your life trying to understand different styles. EVERY genra of music has an artist somewhere along the lines that if followed ver batum will cause trouble. Singling out rap just isn't fair.

I wasn't aware he was racist in the first place.

But instead of attacking perhaps hypocrisy (liking RHCP even though they have rap), you guys pull a race card. Smooth.

Okay, we have recognized the hypocrisy.

What possible difference can we trace between all of those "rock" groups who rap, and actual rappers?

Secondly, you try to extricate Rap from black ethnic culture and history.So.. If a bunch of mostly white blokes, singing/chanting about the joys of cannabis & a materialistic worldview plan Gnawa, they're automatically black Africans in religious worship?

There's fundamentalist Christian 'punk' bands. There's neo-Nazi Oi! & Raggae. There's all sorts of shit in the world. The method of expression isn't synonymous with the message - or with the messenger for that matter.

Poetry it is not. Music? That's up for debate.

No, no it really isn't. It is music by definition.

Whether people like it has no relevance as to whether it is music. It's kinda like how I might not like Jews, but they are still humans. People trying to tell me music isn't music since they don't like it is as revoltingly ignorant as when people try to tell me Jews aren't humans because they don't like them.

I'm out. :)

It is rather easily deduced from his comments.

He considers rock groups that share all of the characteristics of rap to be music, while rap groups that share all of the characteristics of rock are not music.

Unless you can show me this is not some implicit degredation of black culture, I will continue to assume his exclusion of rap to be racially motivated.

seriously, somebody make sense of his inclusion of rhcp and exclusion of that dead prez song i linked to that doesn't rely on racism to make it work. consider it a challenge.

I don't like rap because it mostly doesn't sound good to me. Simple as that. Not because I'm racist. Music, to me, is mostly about sound, and lyrics are of minor concern, hence, rap just usually isn't the kind of music that does it for me, as it's centered almost entirely on lyrics. If you like it, good for you. Enjoy. I'm not going to bash it just because I don't like it.

How do you not get me by now, If I hate blacks, I will say that I hate black. See, this is my deal, I do not beat around the bush, I do not hide my true feelings from people, I am very direct and brutally honest with people. If I hate black, trust me, you will hear me saying that I hate blacks. However, I do not, so I will not say it. Move on, the race card isn't winning you any points.

I hope to get you around your own self-denial.

Stereotyping is so easy when you don't spend your life trying to understand different styles.

Firstly, that's neither original nor right. The majority of juvenile delinquents are all 'ickle gangsta kids.

Secondly, why should I concern myself beyond the superficial with other styles?

Okay, we have recognized the hypocrisy.

What possible difference can we trace between all of those "rock" groups who rap, and actual rappers?

That rock groups play instruments (as defined by Wilgrove's criteria) and have lyrical content congruous to what he defined as music.

...oh, you were expecting me to say race? well, shit, I thought people earlier were arguing that rap isn't all black? silly me. that's obviously the first thing that comes to mind. not all the other aspects which conflict with his views (whether his criteria is valid or not doesn't pertain whether he's a racist or not).

I'm sick of seeing the god damn race card pulled mindlessly.

Whether people like it has no relevance as to whether it is music. It's kinda like how I might not like Jews, but they are still humans. People trying to tell me music isn't music since they don't like it is as revoltingly ignorant as when people try to tell me Jews aren't humans because they don't like them.
What constitutes a human being is a fact of biology. What constitutes a particular art is strongly culture-dependent, and definitions can be changed ad hoc. The analogy does not hold.

I don't like rap because it mostly doesn't sound good to me. Simple as that. Not because I'm racist. Music, to me, is mostly about sound, and lyrics are of minor concern, hence, rap just usually isn't the kind of music that does it for me, as it's centered almost entirely on lyrics. If you like it, good for you. Enjoy.

*claps* Well done, I respect and appreciate your opinion as you are not an asshat.

*hands over a cookie*

The majority of juvenile delinquents are all 'ickle gangsta kids

Is that a reflection of how black culture has been oppressed for the last three centuries, or the music stemming from it?

I hope to get you around your own self-denial.

So, you equate me disliking rap, with me hating blacks.

You might want to join Free Soviets for the next leap in logic.

You can use as many big words as you want, but opinion has no meassure that can be used to level and grade styles of art. We can agree that Vanilla Ice sucked, but that doesn't make us right. Nor does it give us the right to bash his fanship.

Chirs=correct

You = running around the issue like a Mexican past a border guard.

Tell me why your opinion regarding the poetic merits of rap is of equal merit to that of poets, intellectuals and critics?

Hey guys, Vittos said he thinks rock isn't innovative.

That means he hates rock.

That also means he hates KISS, which is a rock group.

Gene Simmons is part of KISS and he's Jewish.

Vittos hate Jews.

Since Vittos hates Jews, he supported the Holocaust.

Since Hitler supported the Holocaust, that means Vittos is actually Hitler in hiding.

This is a valid argument with no inconsistencies whatsoever.

(I claim first Godwin)

Only if you accept that a person has as much a right to a negative opinion of something as does someone to formulate a positive one.

The problem here being is that objective standards of quality are near-impossible to establish! Is Coke better than Pepsi? Some people hate one or the other. Why? It does not appeal to their taste. But can you seriously expect much of a rationalisation behind it? You may argue that rap has intrinsic value as a form of music, but for that to work you'd have to first define music (as much as someone who is arguing that a blank canvass has value as a piece of art would need to first define it). If you and Wilgrove cannot agree on that even, progress is impossible.

Subjective opinions can be held through poor deduction. A person's emotional responses can often cloud a person's rational responses.

I am trying to show an inconsistency in Wilgrove's rational that would not be something tied to the music itself, but Wilgrove's emotional response to the music.

His hypocrisy is plain and out in the open, and I cannot think of any greater possibility than it being racially motivated.

Poetry it is not.Fucking dictionaries, eh? (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/poetry)When a person usually evokes a statement such as "some art defies your understanding" they have a definition of art in mind and assume it is the be-all and end-all of all definitions. How fucking presumptuous.Or perhaps they're just confronted with gits postulating than an artform isn't art.I have formulated an opinion on the matter; whether or not rap (or the 'alternative' genre or pop etc.) is music is irrelevant to me - I simply do not like it.So why not just say so, instead of inventing bullshit standard?

Is that a reflection of how black culture has been oppressed for the last three centuries, or the music stemming from it?

Oh of course. Those who commit crimes are never guilty. It's that nasty capitalist society who is to be held to account....:rolleyes:

Frankly, I still feel a bit fucked off that the Roman legions stole my local land from the Iceni tribe in AD 60. Thus, using your logic, can I torch houses and claim innocence?

Chirs=correct

You = running around the issue like a Mexican past a border guard.

Tell me why your opinion regarding the poetic merits of rap is of equal merit to that of poets, intellectuals and critics?

You spelled your name wrong *childish giggle*

The mexican immigrant comment was oh so cool.

Opinion is opinion, not fact no matter who it comes from. You don't like that then avoid the arts like the plague because you belong in mathematics, and even there your opinion just might conflict with "intellectuals".

In my opinion, Shakespeare was mostly crap. Cicero was nothing more than a loud mouth defense attorney.

I don't know where you get the idea that something is good because people say its good. That's just being fucking lazy.

Oh of course. Those who commit crimes are never guilty. It's that nasty capitalist society who is to be held to account....:rolleyes:

Frankly, I still feel a bit fucked off that the Roman legions stole my local land from the Iceni tribe in AD 60. Thus, using your logic, can I torch houses and claim innocence?

You have 2,000 years to recover in perfect equality. What a pathetic comparison, I didn't know people could reach that far.

Why are American Prison's 70% miniority? Or are we going to say that black people are inherantly bad. Go ahead, say that, I dare you.

seriously, somebody make sense of his inclusion of rhcp and exclusion of that dead prez song i linked to that doesn't rely on racism to make it work. consider it a challenge.

I second this.

Or perhaps they're just confronted with gits postulating than an artform isn't art.
Or maybe they themselves are gits trying to force their particular conception of art down the throats of others. See? I can play this game too.

So why not just say so, instead of inventing bullshit standard?
Because I liked the way Chris expressed it.

You spelled your name wrong *childish giggle*

The mexican immigrant comment was oh so cool.

Opinion is opinion, not fact no matter who it comes from. You don't like that then avoid the arts like the plague because you belong in mathematics, and even there your opinion just might conflict with "intellectuals".

In my opinion, Shakespeare was mostly crap. Cicero was nothing more than a loud mouth defense attorney.

I don't know where you get the idea that something is good because people say its good. That's just being fucking lazy.

I don't. I hold opinions in elevation in light of their provenance. You are an internet forumite whose opinion cannot stand up to centuries of poets and critics, given the disparity in experiance, qualification and, I daresay, ability.

That rock groups play instruments (as defined by Wilgrove's criteria) and have lyrical content congruous to what he defined as music.

How many links to raps songs do you want me to post where there is live instrumentation provided?

How many rap lyrics do you want me to provide that are "congruous to what he defined as music."

Those are obviously two qualities he invented to get around his inherent racial bias towards rap music.

His hypocrisy is plain and out in the open, and I cannot think of any greater possibility than it being racially motivated.

I'm sorry, but then you're an idiot.

Subjective opinions can be held through poor deduction. A person's emotional responses can often cloud a person's rational responses.

I am trying to show an inconsistency in Wilgrove's rational that would not be something tied to the music itself, but Wilgrove's emotional response to the music.

His hypocrisy is plain and out in the open, and I cannot think of any greater possibility than it being racially motivated.

Be sure to wear a condom before sleeping with the race card, you'd need it.

I don't. I hold opinions in elevation in light of their provenance. You are an internet forumite whose opinion cannot stand up to centuries of poets and critics, given the disparity in experiance, qualification and, I daresay, ability.

I'm sorry to have questioned the grand elevated opinion of a bunch of Europeans who thought Romeo and Juliet was best played between men only.

So, you equate me disliking rap, with me hating blacks.

No, I am equating your complete hypocricy in excluding rap from being music as being rooted in racial prejudice.

Subjective opinions can be held through poor deduction. A person's emotional responses can often cloud a person's rational responses.
Sure.

I am trying to show an inconsistency in Wilgrove's rational that would not be something tied to the music itself, but Wilgrove's emotional response to the music.
The problem is the subject-matter you're dealing with. A common definition of art is that it's meant to stimulate the senses. That would make emotional responses highly apposite, in fact perhaps even better responses to its quality than rational ones. This is not science.

His hypocrisy is plain and out in the open, and I cannot think of any greater possibility than it being racially motivated.
Now if only all rap artists were black, and if only all blacks behaved in such a manner. I'm not defending Wilgrove's position on the matter, but why try and link it to racism?

That rock groups play instruments (as defined by Wilgrove's criteria) and have lyrical content congruous to what he defined as music.

can't work - see inclusion of rhcp, exclusion of dead prez

well, shit, I thought people earlier were arguing that rap isn't all black?

since when has the existence of racism relied on the racist holding true beliefs?

How many links to raps songs do you want me to post where there is live instrumentation provided?

How many rap lyrics do you want me to provide that are "congruous to what he defined as music."

Those are obviously two qualities he invented to get around his inherent racial bias towards rap music.

Oh for FUCKS SAKE.

You're the kind of person who would call someone who accidentally bumped into a black person but managed to avoid the white person in line a fucking racist.

Yes, Wilgrove is an incognito racist inventing ideas here and there to thwart the valiant anti-racists on this board! His dislike of rap music has thus been revealed to be part of his great evil conspiracy to spread racism and kill blacks and re institute apartheid in South Africa. How noble of you kind gentle crusaders to expose him! I was under the impression that he just didn't have a strong argument from the beginning, but no, it was racism all along. Good going! Race card to the rescue!

I'm sorry, but then you're an idiot.

His given reasons for not considering rap to be music have been dispelled over and over again. The possibility of it being racially motivated still looms large, however.

I hope to get you around your own self-denial.

You don't have to be racist to dislike rap music.

Rap is to music what "modern" art is to art.

I think it's appropriate at this juncture for someone to scream NORSK ARYSK BLAK METALL! AAAAARGH! What with all the racism accusations flying around and all.

By the way, are all the race-card players in this thread saying that black people are intrinsically linked with hip hop? Cos dat's stereotyping, and stereotyping is a sin.

No, I am equating your complete hypocricy in excluding rap from being music as being rooted in racial prejudice.

and yet, when I say that it wasn't I never said that it was because blacks use it.....

Yea, you know what, from now on I'm just going to respond to your racial charged argument with utter crap. Because honestly, that's all it deserves. What I find funny is that you and Free Soviets were the one that drew the line from me disliking rap to hating blacks, not me. So what the hell does that say about you?

*hands you Condom for sleeping with the race card tonight*

Be sure to wear a condom before sleeping with the race card, you'd need it.

I am perfectly willing to continue refuting your qualities that distinguish music using your own hypocrisy if you like.

Blacks are a degenerate social cancer eh?

You have 2,000 years to recover in perfect equality. What a pathetic comparison, I didn't know people could reach that far.

Why are American Prison's 70% miniority? Or are we going to say that black people are inherantly bad. Go ahead, say that, I dare you.

It is not a pathetic comparison in the slightest. Temporal differences should not distort the fact that every ethnic, social and cultural group in history has been oppressed, yet few employ it as an excuse to become a degenerate social cancer.

Rap is to music what "modern" art is to art.

I think it's appropriate at this juncture for someone to scream NORSK ARYSK BLAK METALL! AAAAARGH! What with all the racism accusations flying around and all.
It's spelt 'arisk'. And that song sucks.

I'm sure wilgrove is sorry that he didn't list every rock band in existence. naming examples is a sign of subconscious racism.:rolleyes:

It's spelt 'arisk'. And that song sucks. I didn't know it was a song, I thought it was something long haired Norwegian satan-botherers shrieked.

If saying you hate rap is racist against blacks, then is saying you hate metal racist against whites?

Although black metal can be as childishly pseudo-offensive as rap. /hijack

can't work - see inclusion of rhcp, exclusion of dead prez



since when has the existence of racism relied on the racist holding true beliefs?

Coming out to a video store near you, it's hot steaming threesome action between Free Soviet, Vittos, and the Race Card! You'd never seen people or cards act this dirty! It's wild, it's crazy, and it's only for $19.99! Order your copy of "Hot Race Card Action" NOW!

Now if only all rap artists were black, and if only all blacks behaved in such a manner. I'm not defending Wilgrove's position on the matter, but why try and link it to racism?

Because there is no doubt that Wilgrove would consider rap to be a predominantly black medium, regardless of the handful of rappers of other races.

Only any adherents to that culture that perpetuates violence.

Not all rap perpetuates violence.

Blacks are a degenerate social cancer eh?

Only any adherents to that culture that perpetuates violence.

*claps* Well done, I respect and appreciate your opinion as you are not an asshat.

*hands over a cookie*


Yay, I like cookies.

I didn't know it was a song, I thought it was something long haired Norwegian satan-botherers shrieked.
That, and it is a song. A bad one. By Darkthrone.

If saying you hate rap is racist against blacks, then is saying you hate metal racist against whites?
If it were believed to represent a significant proportion of whites, yes. But we who are into metal are a fringe group as it is. Rap, by contrast, is commonly linked in most people's minds with black culture.

I'm sure wilgrove is sorry that he didn't list every rock band in existence. naming examples is a sign of subconscious racism.:rolleyes:

This is actually providing some entertainment for a slow Sunday afternoon. I really am enjoying this. *leans back in his chair and chuckles*

It's spelt 'arisk'. And that song sucks.

Don't you mean that album or that band?

Sorry to those who like Darkthrone... just couldn't resist.

Not all rap perpetuates violence.

Of course not. Some advocates stealing, fighting against the "man" and smoking pot.

Of course not. Some advocates stealing, fighting against the "man" and smoking pot.

Thank again for your sweeping generalisations.

So Rock and Metal are also degenerate social cancers?

Now if only all rap artists were black, and if only all blacks behaved in such a manner. I'm not defending Wilgrove's position on the matter, but why try and link it to racism?

the truth of the association between rap and blackness matters not at all, only the belief in the association. and since he has shown that he thinks rap made by a white band and for white audiences counts as music while rap that contains exactly the same musical qualities (and much more intelligent lyrics, for that matter - anthony kiedis, i love you, but honestly "come back strong with 50 belly dancers"?) but is made by blacks does not, i fail to see any other rational explanation.

Of course not. Some advocates stealing, fighting against the "man" and smoking pot.

I still don't think whether the lyrics are positive or not has a bearing on whether it's music or not.

Oh for FUCKS SAKE.

You're the kind of person who would call someone who accidentally bumped into a black person but managed to avoid the white person in line a fucking racist.

Yes, Wilgrove is an incognito racist inventing ideas here and there to thwart the valiant anti-racists on this board! His dislike of rap music has thus been revealed to be part of his great evil conspiracy to spread racism and kill blacks and re institute apartheid in South Africa. How noble of you kind gentle crusaders to expose him! I was under the impression that he just didn't have a strong argument from the beginning, but no, it was racism all along. Good going! Race card to the rescue!

No, I am the person who would call someone who stepped around 10 white people to bump into a black person racist.

There are many hypocritical opinions Wilgrove holds against rap music. That much we are sure of. The part now is to figure out why he holds these hypocritical opinions.

Why do you think Wilgrove has a double standard against rap music?

Because there is no doubt that Wilgrove would consider rap to be a predominantly black medium, regardless of the handful of rappers of other races.

Oh ok, you got me, I hate blacks. I thought I was just disliking a genre of music because to me, it sounds like nails scraping against a blackboard (oops I said black board instead of African American Board), but dammit, you, Detective Race Card has uncovered the fact that I am racist. Good fuckin' Job you dick!

Just for the record: Detective were commonly called dicks, so take that as you will.)

I still don't think whether the lyrics are positive or not has a bearing on whether it's music or not.

What a refreshing voice of reason.

That, and it is a song. A bad one. By Darkthrone. Not familiar with them, though I have heard the name. Prefer the militaristic-style stuff.


If it were believed to represent a significant proportion of whites, yes. But we who are into metal are a fringe group as it is. Rap, by contrast, is commonly linked in most people's minds with black culture. Metal is linked with white people almost exclusively though, except that guy in Dragonforce. Sometimes the metal people are so white they look like corpses.

Fucking poofters.

Saying "Japanese music bores the hell out of me" would not indicate an antipathy towards, er, nips.

Coming out to a video store near you, it's hot steaming threesome action between Free Soviet, Vittos, and the Race Card! You'd never seen people or cards act this dirty! It's wild, it's crazy, and it's only for $19.99! Order your copy of "Hot Race Card Action" NOW!

a simple challenge has been issued to you. it should be no problem at all to answer. ok, and....go!

seriously, somebody make sense of his inclusion of rhcp and exclusion of that dead prez song i linked to that doesn't rely on racism to make it work. consider it a challenge.

Not familiar with them, though I have heard the name. Prefer the militaristic-style stuff.
That song in particular is militaristic.


Metal is linked with white people almost exclusively though, except that guy in Dragonforce. Sometimes the metal people are so white they look like corpses.
It is. I'm an example of those people. But it's still a fringe amongst whites. Country, on the other hand, is another story.

Fucking poofters.
:rolleyes: Well, you got two in one! I'm gay and a metalhead!

You don't have to be racist to dislike rap music.

But it is much easier to apply a blatant double standard when you have racial prejudices.

Oh ok, you got me, I hate blacks. I thought I was just disliking a genre of music because to me, it sounds like nails scraping against a blackboard (oops I said black board instead of African American Board), but dammit, you, Detective Race Card has uncovered the fact that I am racist. Good fuckin' Job you dick!

Just for the record: Detective were commonly called dicks, so take that as you will.)

I just find it odd that music generally associated with blacks sounds like nails on a chalkboard, while music with the same qualities but generally associated with whites sounds like the sighing of angels.

Ask Wilgrove if he likes Jazz, another "black medium".

C'mon, "jazz"?

Harry Connick Jr plays jazz.

Because there is no doubt that Wilgrove would consider rap to be a predominantly black medium, regardless of the handful of rappers of other races.
And? The link is coincidental. You'd have to go further than that to prove that it is causal. Even if he does dislike the ghetto culture linked with it, it still does little to prove that he is racist.

Ask Wilgrove if he likes Jazz, another "black medium".

That song in particular is militaristic. I just looked them up. Their fake names are so pretentious… unbelievable.



It is. I'm an example of those people. But it's still a fringe amongst whites. Country, on the other hand, is another story. Is country associated with white racism etc.? We don't get country in Airstrip One, not as much as America anyway.

A lot of metal sounds like it desperately wants to go into Triumph of the Will mode, though. Especially Rammstein (yes it is real metal!).


:rolleyes: Well, you got two in one! I'm gay and a metalhead! If you don't wear corpse paint then in my book you're not a poofter.

I like that word.

And? The link is coincidental. You'd have to go further than that to prove that it is causal.

Ask Wilgrove if he likes Jazz, another "black medium".

Eh Jazz is ok, I've been to a Jazz Club or two, nice stuff. I really like how the incorporate the violin into Jazz sometimes. I'm a violin player myself.

Eh Jazz is ok, I've been to a Jazz Club or two, nice stuff. I really like how the incorporate the violin into Jazz sometimes. I'm a violin player myself.

I always wanted to learn how to play the sax. I demand a NS Jazz club! :D

And? The link is coincidental. You'd have to go further than that to prove that it is causal. Even if he does dislike the ghetto culture linked with it, it still does little to prove that he is racist.

Also, his continued linking of rap music to the ghetto culture is a telltale sign of racism, too. Is he not excluding the whole of rap music, much of which rails against the ghetto culture?

Is country associated with white racism etc.? We don't get country in Airstrip One, not as much as America anyway.
Most people who like country and who perform it are seen as ignorant hicks. So, draw your own conclusions. Where are you from?

A lot of metal sounds like it desperately wants to go into Triumph of the Will mode, though. Especially Rammstein (yes it is real metal!).
I like it. It's empowering. However, it takes a certain kind of mind to link that to "White Power" and such. And even if such a link were made, again it would be referring to a fringe group. I like metal because a lot of it is monarchist or individualist (with many obvious exceptions).

If you don't wear corpse paint then in my book you're not a poofter.

I like that word.
No, mere nature suffices for me to look like a corpse in winter.

I just find it odd that music generally associated with blacks sounds like nails on a chalkboard, while music with the same qualities but generally associated with whites sounds like the sighing of angels.

Umm, notice how I said that I dislike all rap. Comon you idiot, that includes Eminem, that rap chick from Europe, whatever her name is. I dislike any and all rap regardless of gender, race, or disabilities, past, present and future.

Now, just put the race card away, put it away, you're just beating a dead horse at this minute and you're making yourself look like an idiot by beating it.

I always wanted to learn how to play the sax. I demand a NS Jazz club! :D

I'll bring my Violin! :D

Umm, notice how I said that I dislike all rap. Comon you idiot, that includes Eminem, that rap chick from Europe, whatever her name is. I dislike any and all rap regardless of gender, race, or disabilities, past, present and future.

Now, just put the race card away, put it away, you're just beating a dead horse at this minute and you're making yourself look like an idiot by beating it.

That there are white rappers does not mean that rap isn't associated as "black" music.

Now you are just being willfully obtuse.

Umm, notice how I said that I dislike all rap.

except, of course, the red hot chili peppers

I will leave this considering all of you to be racists or racist apologists if FS's challenge goes without a satisfactory answer.

except, of course, the red hot chili peppers

I would be quite willing to believe that he enjoys the Beastie Boys as well.

C'mon, "jazz"?

Harry Connick Jr plays jazz.
Aren't most Jazz artists predominantly black, and isn't the genre linked with black history?

Also, his continued linking of rap music to the ghetto culture is a telltale sign of racism, too. Is he not excluding the whole of rap music, much of which rails against the ghetto culture?
Not racism, but ignorance I'd say.

except, of course, the red hot chili peppers

I only listen to their rock, not their rap.

I only listen to their rock, not their rap.

You buy the instrumentals?

I would be quite willing to believe that he enjoys the Beastie Boys as well.

God...just let it go, please, let it go. Also, you and Free Soviets should get a room, seriously.

I will leave this considering all of you to be racists or racist apologists if FS's challenge goes without a satisfactory answer.

and I'll think of you as someone who carries around the race card and always flashes it out when someone disagree with your opinion. Or in another word, an idiot who gets tiring after awhile and would probably get beaten in real life.

and I'll think of you as someone who carries around the race card and always flashes it out when someone disagree with your opinion. Or in another word, an idiot who gets tiring after awhile and would probably get beaten in real life.
Erm, one thing Vittos is not is an idiot...

I would be quite willing to believe that he enjoys the Beastie Boys as well.

almost certainly. and we know he likes korn too, so we could probably safely throw in ratm, papa roach, and that entire string of 'rapcore' bands as making real music™, even if he doesn't personally like all of them.

Wiki labels RHCP as American Rock, so do I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers

Case close on RHCP = Rap.

almost certainly. and we know he likes korn too, so we could probably safely throw in ratm, papa roach, and that entire string of 'rapcore' bands as making real music™, even if he doesn't personally like all of them.

Korn = Alternative Metal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korn

You buy the instrumentals?

he has an extensive karaoke collection, maybe?

And now for a little test:

Music or Not Music

1. Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000BGR0SS001014/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_014/102-0691033-7064953)

2. Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00013EV1A001017/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_017/102-0691033-7064953)

3. Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000I5JL001003/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_003/102-0691033-7064953)

4. Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000029D9001007/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_007/102-0691033-7064953)

5. Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00001XDNV001015/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_015/102-0691033-7064953)

6. Sample (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000C1733001002/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_002/102-0691033-7064953)

EDIT:

One more to really muddy the waters. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000DZFL0001009/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_009/102-0691033-7064953)

God...just let it go, please, let it go. Also, you and Free Soviets should get a room, seriously.

Don't worry Wilgrove, your angry indignation is the first step and we are going to help you through it. All that matters is that you privately accept your problem and share your revelation with other closet racists.

and I'll think of you as someone who carries around the race card and always flashes it out when someone disagree with your opinion. Or in another word, an idiot who gets tiring after awhile and would probably get beaten in real life.

Not an answer.

I find it annoying when thrash metal fans criticize rap, stating that it is just pointless talking with no musical merit.

How the fuck does growling even worse lyrics with no rhythm (which is the whole point of rap, the rhythm with hopefully good lyrics) over a track so distorted you can't make out any tune have more musical merit? Complete dimwits...

Erm, one thing Vittos is not is an idiot...

I am also not usually one to pull out the race card, but when someone offers such a blatant double standard as to what is music and what isn't, there has to be some reason.

*snip*
All music, but only 1 is barely tolerable for me.

Don't worry Wilgrove, your angry indignation is the first step and we are going to help you through it. All that matters is that you privately accept your problem and share your revelation with other closet racists.

That's all you have left isn't it? I've successfully labeled RHCP as American Rock, and Korn as Alternative. You, you fuck the Race Card like there's no tomorrow.

Not an answer.

That's the only answer it deserves really.

All music, but only 1 is barely tolerable for me.

Ironically, #1 is the only one of the batch that I don't particularly like.

I am also not usually one to pull out the race card, but when someone offers such a blatant double standard as to what is music and what isn't, there has to be some reason.

While quite like some rap,I really doubt it is racism. You are kind of but not quite playing the race card.

Ironically, #1 is the only one of the batch that I don't particularly like.
Which song is it?

That's all you have left isn't it? I've successfully labeled RHCP as American Rock, and Korn as Alternative. You, you fuck the Race Card like there's no tomorrow.

Well you have successfully related the labels that the music companies gave them, but you have still failed to show what differentiates a band like korn or RHCP from a band like the Roots.

And RHCP is "American Rock"? What kind of generalized pseudo-genre is that?

-snip-

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. Yes but it kinda dropped the ball towards the end, so the beginning was good, but not the ending.

5. Hell No

6. Ehh hard to tell.

and I couldn't get the last one to play.

the race card.

this ain't "go fish" - there either is or is not racism in action here, and that matters. me and vittos would like to hear an even halfway plausible explanation of how it isn't racism to hold up a blatant double standard of what is and isn't real music™

While quite like some rap,I really doubt it is racism. You are kind of but not quite playing the race card.

On this issue I am playing the race card, because that is what separates some of the music Wilgrove includes and excludes in what he considers to be music.

this ain't "go fish" - there either is or is not racism in action here, and that matters. me and vittos would like to hear an even halfway plausible explanation of how it isn't racism to hold up a blatant double standard of what is and isn't real music™

He's an idiot?

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. Yes but it kinda dropped the ball towards the end, so the beginning was good, but not the ending.

5. Hell No

6. Ehh hard to tell.

and I couldn't get the last one to play.

What can give you, or anyone authority to decide what is and isn't music? Even if you judge it by contemporary standards, do all those songs have a melody? Yes (even if it's only in the backing track). Do all those songs have a rhythm? Yes, including the rapping. So even if a song has a melody and rhythm, it could not be music? :S

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. Yes but it kinda dropped the ball towards the end, so the beginning was good, but not the ending.

5. Hell No

6. Ehh hard to tell.

and I couldn't get the last one to play.


How did you arrive at that conclusion considering those six all consisted of rappers in front of live bands, and none consisted of lyrics about getting 40s?

Is it any coincidence that the three no's were black rappers?

I always love the way that people immediately jump on rap as being bad. There's lots of really good rap, really artistic rap, and really un-thug, un-crunk, un-pop rap out there. For example, take MC Lars, a Stanford Graduate (in English).

Most MC’s today rap about five things:
narcotics, cars, girls, clothes, and the bling bling.
Delusions of grandeur in full swing,
fascist self focus and diamond rings.
But if Martin Luther King were alive today,
how would he weigh the decay displayed?
Homogenized identities, ourselves betrayed,
there’s more to rap than just getting paid.
And there’s more to life than MTV and Reeses Pieces,
and when I sit in silence, my love for life increases.
It feels great to pull the plug on the family TV,
and make my own niche in society.

- MC Lars "Hey That's Me"

Hot Topic is a contrived identification with youth subcultures to manufacture an anti-authoritarian identity and make millions. The $8 you paid for the Mudvayne poster would be better spent used to see your brother’s friend’s band.

DIY ethics are punk rock
Starting your own label is punk rock
G.G. Allin was punk rock.

But when a crass corporate vulture feeds on mass-consumer culture, this spending mommy’s money is not punk rock!

- MC Lars; "Hot Topic is Not Punk Rock"

Phrase about my gun, rhyme about my loot
Phrase about these haters I sometimes have to shoot
Rhyme about my clothes,
props to my hometown (Carmel Valley!)
Lyrics that say nothing - cause that's how we get down
Phrase about my clique, don't step to me punk
Gratuitous rhyme about keeping it crunk
Big ups to our genre, we do it our own way
It's just too bad our songs don't have anything to say!

- MC Lars; "Generic Crunk Rap"



This is derivative, uninspired poetry.

He's an idiot?

Even idiots have their reasons, but Wilgrove is not an idiot.

Which song is it?

Sabotage by the Beastie Boys

Even idiots have their reasons, but Wilgrove is not an idiot.

Ok bad use of words, hes not an idiot. Maybe the better word is stubborn.

And just so it is known, #5 which got the "Hell No" is probably the most lyrically and musically accomplished of all of the songs.

Its "Mr. Nigga" by Mos Def.

It ironically deals with the double standard blacks face:

And check it out now
Who is the cat eatin out on the town
And make the whole dining room turn they head round
Mr Nigga, Nigga Nigga
He got the speakers in the trunk with the bass on crunk
Who be ridin up in the highrise elevator
Other tenants who be prayin they ain't the new neighbor
Mr Nigga, Nigga Nigga
They try to play him like a chump cause he got what they want

He under thirty years old but already he's a pro
Designer trousers slung low ccause his pockets stay swoll'
Could afford to get up and be anywhere he go
V.I.P. at the club, backstage at the show
(Yes y'all) the best crib, the best clothes
Hottest whips on the road neck and wrists on froze (say word)
Checks with O's o-o-o-o-ohs
Straight all across the globe watch got three time-zones
Keep the digital phone up to his dome
Two assistants, two bank accounts, two homes
One problem; even with the O's on his check
The po-po stop him and show no respect
"Is there a problem officer?" Damn straight, it's called race
That motivate the jake (woo-woo) to give chase
Say they want you successful, but that ain't the case
You livin large, your skin is dark they flash a light in your face

Now, who is cat dining out on the town
Maitre'd wanna take a whole year to sit him down
Mr Nigga, Nigga Nigga
He got the speakers in the trunk with the bass on crunk
Now, who is the cat at Armani buyin wears
With the tourists who be askin him, do you work here?
Mr Nigga, Nigga Nigga
Nigga Nigga

Yo, the Abstract with the Mighty Mos Def
White folks got it muffled across beneath they breathe
"I didn't say it.."
But they'll say it out loud again
When they get with they close associates and friends
You know, sneak it in with they friends at the job
Happy hour at the bar while this song is in they car
And even if they've never said it, lips stay sealed
They actions reveal how their hearts really feel
Like, late night I'm on a first class flight
The only brother in sight the flight attendent catch fright
I sit down in my seat, 2C
She approach officially talkin about, "Excuse me"
Her lips curl up into a tight space
Cause she don't believe that I'm in the right place
Showed her my boarding pass, and then she sort of gasped
All embarrassed put an extra lime on my water glass
An hour later here she comes by walkin past
"I hate to be a pest but my son would love your autograph"
(Wowwww.. Mr. Nigga I love you, I have all your albums!..)
They stay on nigga patrol on american roads
And when you travel abroad they got world nigga law
Some folks get on a plane go as they please
But I go over seas and I get over-SEIZED
London Heathrow, me and my people
They think that illegal's a synonym for negro
Far away places, customs agents flagrant
They think the dark face is smuggle weight in they cases
Bags inspected, now we arrested
Attention directed to contents of our intestines
Urinalyis followed by X-rays
Interrogated and detained til damn near the next day
No evidence, no appology and no regard
Even for the big american rap star
For us especially, us most especially
A Mr Nigga VIP jail cell just for me
"If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake
Just got some shoe-polish, painted my face"
They say they want you successful, but then they make it stressful
You start keepin pace, they start changin up the tempo

Now, who is cat riding out on the town
State trooper wanna stop him in his ride, pat him down
Mr Nigga, Nigga Nigga
He got the speakers in the trunk with the bass on crunk
Now, who is the cat with the hundred dollar bill
They gotta send it to the back to make sure the shit is real
Mr Nigga, Nigga Nigga
Nigga Nigga.. Nigga

You can laugh and criticize Michael Jackson if you wanna
Woody Allen, molested and married his step-daughter
Same press kickin dirt on Michael's name
Show Woody and Soon-Yi at the playoff game, holdin hands
Sit back and just bug, think about that
Would he get that type of dap if his name was Woody Black?
O.J. found innocent by a jury of his peers
And they been fuckin with that nigga for last five years
Is it fair, is it equal, is it just, is it right?
Do you do the same shit when the defendent face is white?
If white boys doin it, well, it's success
When I start doin, well, it's suspect
Don't hate me, my folks is poor, I just got money
America's five centuries deep in cotton money
You see a lot of brothers caked up, yo straight up
It's new, y'all livin off of slave traders paper
But I'm a live though, yo I'm a live though
I'm puttin up the big swing for my kids yo
Got my mom the fat water-front crib yo
I'm a get her them pretty bay windows
I'm a cop a nice home to provide in
A safe environment for seeds to reside in
A fresh whip for my whole family to ride in
And if I'm still Mr Nigga, I won't find it suprisin

Ok bad use of words, hes not an idiot. Maybe the better word is stubborn.

Aren't well all? ;)

Sabotage by the Beastie Boys
Not to my taste, but it's passable I guess.

Aren't well all? ;)

Yeah but Wilgrove is taking it to the extreme.

For Vittos and Free Soviets:

Welcome to what I like to call Wilgrove's Corner. It's where I take idiocy like yours and just rant them about it, sometimes call you a girl name, but overall make you feel like crap, although, any crap feelings that you may feel will be because of your own idiocy, I'm just simply pointing it out. I love being brutally honest, I do, it's just so much fun. Annnnyyyways, you claim that I am 'racist' because I dislike rap, because rap is a black medium, your words, not mine. Well, let's just stop right there, I mean I never called it a black medium, you did. So does that mean that whites can't rap? What about Asian? Why does it have to be a black medium? Uh oh, racist! You guys are racist! You say that I have a double standard because I like RCHP, which you guys claim is 'rap'. However, Wiki says that RHCP is American Rock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers

But why stop there, let's see what the Grammy has to say!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers#Awards

1993 Grammy Awards Best Hard Rock Performance (Give It Away)

and MTV, and Billboards.

2000 MTV EMA Best Rock
2000 Billboard Awards Best Alternative Group
2000 Grammy Awards Best Rock Song (Scar Tissue)
2002 MTV EMA Best Rock
2006 American Music Awards Favorite Pop/Rock Band/Duo/Group
2006 American Music Awards Favorite Alternative Artist

Strange, they should've won in the RAP category! Dammit all, they should've won best rap songs, best rap group, I mean if they didn't win in rap, then dammit, your argument just got weaker than a 600lbs guy's knee! However, just to drive this point home, and because I am enjoying this immensely, let's listen to some of RHCP songs.

Scar Tissue:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000J7JO001003/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_003/105-3223784-7076418

Californication:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000J7JO001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/105-3223784-7076418

and finally, Blood Sugar Sex Magik
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000002LQR001010/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_010/105-3223784-7076418

They sound like a rock group to me.

Sorry guys, your 'racist' charge won't stick, no matter how hard you try, and that is the end of "Wilgrove's Corner".

Ok bad use of words, hes not an idiot. Maybe the better word is stubborn.

Wordzizzles izzles importizzletant to..zizzle makizzle sensicizzsnizzle.

Ya fizzle?

Wordzizzles izzles importizzletant to..zizzle makizzle sensicizzsnizzle.

Ya fizzle?

whatizzle rufizzle?

#5 which got the "Hell No"
...
It ironically deals with the double standard blacks face

yeah, i was gonna remark on that

For Vittos and Free Soviets:

Welcome to what I like to call Wilgrove's Corner. It's where I take idiocy like yours and just rant them about it, sometimes call you a girl name, but overall make you feel like crap, although, any crap feelings that you may feel will be because of your own idiocy, I'm just simply pointing it out. I love being brutally honest, I do, it's just so much fun. Annnnyyyways, you claim that I am 'racist' because I dislike rap, because rap is a black medium, your words, not mine. Well, let's just stop right there, I mean I never called it a black medium, you did. So does that mean that whites can't rap? What about Asian? Why does it have to be a black medium? Uh oh, racist! You guys are racist! You say that I have a double standard because I like RCHP, which you guys claim is 'rap'. However, Wiki says that RHCP is American Rock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers

But why stop there, let's see what the Grammy has to say!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers#Awards



and MTV, and Billboards.



Strange, they should've won in the RAP category! Dammit all, they should've won best rap songs, best rap group, I mean if they didn't win in rap, then dammit, your argument just got weaker than a 600lbs guy's knee! However, just to drive this point home, and because I am enjoying this immensely, let's listen to some of RHCP songs.

Scar Tissue:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000J7JO001003/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_003/105-3223784-7076418

Californication:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000J7JO001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/105-3223784-7076418

and finally, Blood Sugar Sex Magik
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000002LQR001010/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_010/105-3223784-7076418

They sound like a rock group to me.

Sorry guys, your 'racist' charge won't stick, no matter how hard you try, and that is the end of "Wilgrove's Corner".

I would say that RHCP are more western funk rock, but it is all semantics.

That's right, rap music or "hip hop" if you will is fucking awesome. Im a punk who loves MCs and DJs. I fucking hate pretentious wankers who look down on rap music and make stupid (subconsciously racist?) comments like "its not real music, its just someone talking".

It isn't real music. It uses real music, but rappers hardly ever write their own music. Even those who write their own rhymes. The very fact that they call the words their "rhymes" instead of "lyrics," is emblamatic of my point.

It isn't music, it's poetry. Rappers don't sing. That's why one of the members of Run DMC applied for the job of Poet Laureate of Queens.

Shut up. You clearly know nothing. Being a good rapper is more than just talking; it relies on flow, pitch, timing, speed, enunciation, etc. I mean for fucks sake, one of you guys who criticise rappers for being untalentened try just talking over a beat and see how it compares.

Cooking a really nice Cumberland Duck is a complicated task that requires more than simply throwing fruit and duck into a pan. But no matter how nice a meal I make out of it, it will never qualify as having baked a cake. It's just not the same thing. You're right that there is some socially consious rap out here, and that rapping well takes some talent (rapping succesfully however requires no musical talent at all. Just look at P. Diddly).

The rap today that contains some actual artistic merit is similar to the poetry of Langston Hughes back in the 20's. He used to recite poetry while other people who had talent and training in music played jazz accompaniment. Langston Hughes however never pretended that he was a musician. He didn't sing, he recited poetry. Rappers don't sing, they recite poetry. In the case of most rappers it is very bad poetry, but that's the case with almost everything in popular entertainment. Most of it is very bad because the people who produce it are under pressure to produce so much that they don't properly develop it. Whether it is rap or sit-coms, poor quality is a valid criticism of any popularly distributed art medium.

You claim to be a punk, but sadly, I doubt you mean it in the sense you are communicating to us.

Not to my taste, but it's passable I guess.

but its music video is awesome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTxuDUfzzM

Wordzizzles izzles importizzletant to..zizzle makizzle sensicizzsnizzle.

Ya fizzle?

Your grammer is atrocious. It's "senshizzle."

whatizzle rufizzle?

Fo shiiiizzzzzzzllllee.

It isn't real music. It uses real music, but rappers hardly ever write their own music. Even those who write their own rhymes. The very fact that they call the words their "rhymes" instead of "lyrics," is emblamatic of my point.

It isn't music, it's poetry. Rappers don't sing. That's why one of the members of Run DMC applied for the job of Poet Laureate of Queens.


Rapping is all about the rhythm. They are usually quite clever as they rap with the beat to form complex cross rhythms which is why it is so popular. And where the fuck did you get this idea that rappers don't write their own lyrics?

Your grammer is atrocious. It's "senshizzle."

Fank yizzle.

For Vittos and Free Soviets:

Welcome to what I like to call Wilgrove's Corner. It's where I take idiocy like yours and just rant them about it, sometimes call you a girl name, but overall make you feel like crap, although, any crap feelings that you may feel will be because of your own idiocy, I'm just simply pointing it out. I love being brutally honest, I do, it's just so much fun. Annnnyyyways, you claim that I am 'racist' because I dislike rap, because rap is a black medium, your words, not mine. Well, let's just stop right there, I mean I never called it a black medium, you did. So does that mean that whites can't rap? What about Asian? Why does it have to be a black medium? Uh oh, racist! You guys are racist! You say that I have a double standard because I like RCHP, which you guys claim is 'rap'. However, Wiki says that RHCP is American Rock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers

But why stop there, let's see what the Grammy has to say!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers#Awards



and MTV, and Billboards.



Strange, they should've won in the RAP category! Dammit all, they should've won best rap songs, best rap group, I mean if they didn't win in rap, then dammit, your argument just got weaker than a 600lbs guy's knee! However, just to drive this point home, and because I am enjoying this immensely, let's listen to some of RHCP songs.

Scar Tissue:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000J7JO001003/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_003/105-3223784-7076418

Californication:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00000J7JO001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/105-3223784-7076418

and finally, Blood Sugar Sex Magik
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000002LQR001010/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_010/105-3223784-7076418

They sound like a rock group to me.

Sorry guys, your 'racist' charge won't stick, no matter how hard you try, and that is the end of "Wilgrove's Corner".

It is too bad you can't answer our questions.

First off when wiki calls RHCP an "American rock" band it is referring to its nationality. It also calls it a "rap-rock" band as well.

Secondly, you are referring to the industry generated labels placed on the bands and acting as if that is a good description of the musical qualities the bands possess.

Now please go ahead and point out what qualities 2, 3, and 5 do not have that keeps them from being music, we could advance in this conversation.

Didn't rap songs win two Oscars?

Fank yizzle.

Why don't you get your shizzle off my thread! You fuzzizaling cunzizle!

Fo shiiiizzzzzzzllllee.

Oh snapizzle, it is so onittle.

*snaps fingers*

Didn't rap songs win two Oscars?

Oscars are for films arn't they?

However, Wiki says that RHCP is American Rock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers

um, you have actually looked at that page, right?
Genre(s):
Rock
Alternative rock
Funk rock
Funk metal
Rap rock


But why stop there, let's see what the Grammy has to say!

that jethro tull was the best hard rock/metal performance vocal or instrumental in 1990. 'nuf said.

Oscars are for films arn't they?

Who knows? All those awards are bullshit.

Music is Grammies.

Movies are Oscars and Emmys.

Television is Golden Globes.

Me thinks.

Oscars are for films arn't they?

There is a music category.

Who knows? All those awards are bullshit.

Music is Grammies.

Movies are Oscars and Emmys.

Television is Golden Globes.

Me thinks.

I thought golden globes was also films?

There is a music category.

You sure it's not the soundtrack category?

Aha!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Song#2001_-

It is too bad you can't answer our questions.

First off when wiki calls RHCP an "American rock" band it is referring to its nationality. It also calls it a "rap-rock" band as well.

It's been called alot of things, but it's never been called "rap". So sorry, that argument just collapsed like the knee of a 600 pound man.


Secondly, you are referring to the industry generated labels placed on the bands and acting as if that is a good description of the musical qualities the bands possess.

Eh most of the time it is.


Now please go ahead and point out what qualities 2, 3, and 5 do not have that keeps them from being music, we could advance in this conversation.

Eh you know what, nah, I'm done here. If you want to go ahead and think I'm a 'racist' because you make leaps of logic that only someone who has the preconceived notion in the first place, then go ahead. I honestly don't give a rats ass what you and Soviet think of me, because by the end of the day, I know I'm not racist, and I know that just because I don't like rap doesn't make me a racist. At the end of the day, you two will look like idiots because you are so obsessed with sticking the racist label on me, I wouldn't be surprised if I found out you masturbated to it. Honestly, I think you're trying to compensate for something, I dunno, maybe you've got called a racist yourself and just like the idiots who say "I'm not racist, I got black friends!" you have to label someone else racist to make yourself feel better.

I however, don't need to stick labels like that on people, I let the people do it themselves, I just simply point it out to them because I believe that people in this world needs to be more brutally honest like me. Also that it's fun.

So if you and Soviet wants to go ahead and masturbate to the idea that I am somehow a 'racist' then whatever, your opinion means shit to me. It honestly does, and really, the only opinions I would even remotely consider are opinions of my family, friends and Kay. So whatever.

*dust hands off and walks away*

Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJbqKDuMsY4

Not Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbQjoIAr4-I

There is something different about these bands, but I cannot put my finger on it.

how the fuck is this like 32 pages long?

You sure it's not the soundtrack category?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Song#2001_-

Best Original Song

:cool:

Eh you know what, nah, I'm done here. If you want to go ahead and think I'm a 'racist' because you make leaps of logic that only someone who has the preconceived notion in the first place, then go ahead. I honestly don't give a rats ass what you and Soviet think of me, because by the end of the day, I know I'm not racist, and I know that just because I don't like rap doesn't make me a racist. At the end of the day, you two will look like idiots because you are so obsessed with sticking the racist label on me, I wouldn't be surprised if I found out you masturbated to it. Honestly, I think you're trying to compensate for something, I dunno, maybe you've got called a racist yourself and just like the idiots who say "I'm not racist, I got black friends!" you have to label someone else racist to make yourself feel better.

I however, don't need to stick labels like that on people, I let the people do it themselves, I just simply point it out to them because I believe that people in this world needs to be more brutally honest like me. Also that it's fun.

So if you and Soviet wants to go ahead and masturbate to the idea that I am somehow a 'racist' then whatever, your opinion means shit to me. It honestly does, and really, the only opinions I would even remotely consider are opinions of my family, friends and Kay. So whatever.

*dust hands off and walks away*

You fail, you completely fail. The only chance you get to actually explain what gives you any sort of authority at all to say what is and what isn't music, the only chance you get to explain what seperates the no's from the yes's despite them being almost identical with both having melodies and rhythm (so being able to easily be identified as music in contemporary standards) without having to dither off in to racisim nonsence, and you give up! I.e you have no argument, your hatred is completely spontanious.

For Vittos and Free Soviets:

Welcome to what I like to call Wilgrove's Corner. It's where I take idiocy like yours and just rant them about it, sometimes call you a girl name, but overall make you feel like crap, although, any crap feelings that you may feel will be because of your own idiocy, I'm just simply pointing it out. I love being brutally honest, I do, it's just so much fun. Annnnyyyways, you claim that I am 'racist' because I dislike rap, because rap is a black medium, your words, not mine. Well, let's just stop right there, I mean I never called it a black medium, you did. So does that mean that whites can't rap? What about Asian? Why does it have to be a black medium? Uh oh, racist! You guys are racist!

On that note, I'd like to add a note on the artistic basis of rap.

The practice of freestyle rap is an artform I hole in very high regard. When people complain about how simplistic rap lyrics often are I respond "can you make up something better right here on the spot?" They rarely can, but almost anyone could do a passable job if they practiced. Most people don't however because most participatory arts in the west went out the window when TV's became popular.

That's probably why so many rappers have spent time in prison, as well as develop weightlifter muscles. They've got the time to work on those things.

Making up poems on the spot used to be a popular game among white people. We called it Epigrams, and it was more structured than freestyle rap, but it was an art that was practiced for a few generations. Rap has only been around since the 70's. It will grow (despite the best efforts of the record companies.)

Those who complain about the simplicity of rap have something of a point. If the average rap song is the smartest thing you can come up with after spending six months at your desk writing, then you are an idiot and should hang up your pen. But it's impressive if you can just open your mouth and come up with something more complicated than

"My name is Bob.
I like the blob.
I don't mean the mutant
I mean the movie
Cause I'm a film student
and I saw it drinking Pepsi."

Then that's pretty impressive.

Eh you know what, nah, I'm done here. If you want to go ahead and think I'm a 'racist' because you make leaps of logic that only someone who has the preconceived notion in the first place, then go ahead. I honestly don't give a rats ass what you and Soviet think of me, because by the end of the day, I know I'm not racist, and I know that just because I don't like rap doesn't make me a racist. At the end of the day, you two will look like idiots because you are so obsessed with sticking the racist label on me, I wouldn't be surprised if I found out you masturbated to it. Honestly, I think you're trying to compensate for something, I dunno, maybe you've got called a racist yourself and just like the idiots who say "I'm not racist, I got black friends!" you have to label someone else racist to make yourself feel better.

I however, don't need to stick labels like that on people, I let the people do it themselves, I just simply point it out to them because I believe that people in this world needs to be more brutally honest like me. Also that it's fun.

So if you and Soviet wants to go ahead and masturbate to the idea that I am somehow a 'racist' then whatever, your opinion means shit to me. It honestly does, and really, the only opinions I would even remotely consider are opinions of my family, friends and Kay. So whatever.

*dust hands off and walks away*

Don't worry, I don't think you are a bad guy or even that much of a racist.

I just know that when you get over yourself and actually try and figure out why you consider rap to not be music you will realize what we are talking about.

That's probably why so many rappers have spent time in prison, as well as develop weightlifter muscles. They've got the time to work on those things.


Oh lord.

See you at the Jazz Club Wilgrove.

You fail, you completely fail. The only chance you get to actually explain what gives you any sort of authority at all to say what is and what isn't music, the only chance you get to explain what seperates the no's from the yes's despite them being almost identical with both having melodies and rhythm (so being able to easily be identified as music in contemporary standards) without having to dither off in to racisim nonsence, and you give up! I.e you have no argument, your hatred is completely spontanious.

I have not only repeatedly asked him to explain his opinion, but given him excellent examples to work with and he came back with nothing.

See you at the Jazz Club Wilgrove.

I'll bring my violin!

*which is singed by Charlie Daniels BTW* :D

There is something different about these bands, but I cannot put my finger on it.

the roots have more musicians in the band playing more instruments. that's probably what disqualifies them from creating music.

I have not only repeatedly asked him to explain his opinion, but given him excellent examples to work with and he came back with nothing.

which is probably a positive sign, really. he's stopped trying to shift definitions around now, so it might be starting to sink in.

the roots have more musicians in the band playing more instruments. that's probably what disqualifies them from creating music.

lol :D

the roots have more musicians in the band playing more instruments. that's probably what disqualifies them from creating music.

A band with a keyboard??!!! Heresy!

Just found another nice snippet hat fits well into this thread. This is intended for whoever said he preferred classical music to rap:

http://www.cmdrecords.ch/soundz/005l%FCgner.mp3

Unfortunately, a lot of the snippet's time is used for the intro, but it gives an idea on how to merge classical music with rap.

The title of the song, btw, is "De Bach ab" meaning "down the drain" (you should be able to guess which composer did the original music...).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=25380496792966945&q=Beat+Box

Just for shits and giggles.

Not familiar with them, though I have heard the name. Prefer the militaristic-style stuff.


Metal is linked with white people almost exclusively though, except that guy in Dragonforce. Sometimes the metal people are so white they look like corpses.

Fucking poofters.

Saying "Japanese music bores the hell out of me" would not indicate an antipathy towards, er, nips.

Actually, speaking of the Japanese, there are some Japanese metal bands.

Also, Blasphemy, God Forbid are not "white" bands... among others.

I love Japanese music, but I can't understand it :(

I love Japanese music, but I can't understand it :(

Does anyone else love the mad capsule markets (post modern Japanese rap metal band which sometimes puts some random electro/dance in their songs).

Let me rephrase what I said:

I love Japan, but I don't understand it. :(

Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJbqKDuMsY4

Not Music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbQjoIAr4-I

There is something different about these bands, but I cannot put my finger on it.

Yeah, it's called "genre." Or "musical style." I closed both after only a couple seconds, as I didn't care for either.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers aren't rap. They might be rap-rock, but that's like saying rockabilly punk and rockabilly are the same thing. They are different styles, even if one incorporates elements of the other. I don't think Wilgrove likes any rap, whether it is by Public Enemy, Vanilla Ice, 50 Cent, Tupac or Eminem. I don't agree with him saying that it's not music, as why should I bash something just cause I don't like the way it sounds? I've had my music bashed enough to know how pointlessly mean that is. I don't like certain foods, but I don't bash them, I just don't eat them.

I find it annoying when thrash metal fans criticize rap, stating that it is just pointless talking with no musical merit.

How the fuck does growling even worse lyrics with no rhythm (which is the whole point of rap, the rhythm with hopefully good lyrics) over a track so distorted you can't make out any tune have more musical merit? Complete dimwits...

I didn't bash rap at all. I just said it doesn't sound good to me, that I don't like it. Other people do.

I think you're being the asshole here. Great job doing exactly the thing you were complaining about others doing.

A better question:

Would you categorize "Suck my Kiss" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B0000C1733001007/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_007/102-0691033-7064953) as rap music?

Fuck No .. just a shitty song. I know you weren't asking me, but I felt the need to respond. :)

I linked to a lot of good songs in a post here a while back, but can't find ithe post now and since then a lot of the songs I linked to have been removed from You Tube anyway.

But anyway.. I'm going to post a few songs from the mid-late 80's to early 90's of some good rap and hip hop groups. Some are classics.. others are just good imo. To those of you that don't like rap.. take a bit of time if you can and listen to some of these people and see if you dig any of it. I'm pretty sure there are some listed that you haven't heard before. All of these don't have some deep message, some are just fun. But they are all good hip hop lyricists.

Boogie Down Productions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=549MxbycBDU)
Eric B. & Rakim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oracJP6kIWY)
EPMD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIbGAyhasfc)
Public (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjsOhoMUzho) Enemy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvOd48zlNkA)
De La Soul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnAT433Gz8)
Tribe Called Quest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYbLhnPeqHM)
Main Source (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMto1UuexkY)
Gang Starr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EWJ9JrxU0g)
Pete Rock & CL Smooth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N91rXNFgOd4)
Pharcyde (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud-CTiJh9V4)
Common (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAZbBS0a3GU)

I've heard quite a lot of rap. The old-school stuff I don't mind so much, but it's still not a kind of music I like really. I just avoid listening to it. Just like people who don't like metal should just not listen to it. Nothing to get worked up over.

I've heard quite a lot of rap. The old-school stuff I don't mind so much, but it's still not a kind of music I like really. I just avoid listening to it. Just like people who don't like metal should just not listen to it. Nothing to get worked up over.

I started making that post about 2 hours ago, in the middle of it, had to run to the store.

Just wanted you to know I wasn't pointing a finger at you.

I do hope some here will take a bit of time and listen to what I linked to tho, and feedback.

I hate rap "music". I'm glad we had this conversation.