NationStates Jolt Archive

okay....you want a cookie? i mean not to be rude, but u keep hiting at the minor details and your not looking at the big picture.

You mean the picture of you contradicting yourself and bearing false witness while trying to argue your faith?

Do you have proof to back up your 99% claim?


eh hes kinda right. We are human, and thus we fall. Christ was God hence he was perfect. Though we cannot all be alike him its something we aspire to be.

alots happened since then, you know as christians were also supposed to Forgive and Forget?

Indeed.

okay....you want a cookie? i mean not to be rude, but u keep hiting at the minor details and your not looking at the big picture.
The “Big picture” us usually made out of a lot of the smaller pictures … which he was pointing out you keep making errors in

Too many errors in the small picture can lead to a fucked up big picture

The “Big picture” us usually made out of a lot of the smaller pictures … which he was pointing out you keep making errors in

Too many errors in the small picture can lead to a fucked up big picture


That my good man is what is wrong with organized religion.

Do you have proof to back up your 99% claim?

Yeah, how many Christian socialists have you met? :D

You don't grasp the concept of "coerced".



People like Mormons and Catholics. As I recall, families of those have sued to have prayers stopped at games in Texas.



lets not get into the School Prayer, that has a whole nother issue of Majority Vs. Minority attached to it and thats not the purpose of the thread

Other than ancedotal, not so much.

There are alot of false christians out there. I will not lie to you about that. I will even concede that there are many of them. To say though that they are 99% of the Christian population, that I will doubt. Thank you though for being honest.

You don't grasp the concept of "coerced".


? What are you talking about? I understand the argument against public prayer. Personally, I think private prayer is much better and much more meaningful than that in the school or church, where people sometimes show off their faith in exactly the way Jesus didn't want them to.


People like Mormons and Catholics. As I recall, families of those have sued to have prayers stopped at games in Texas.

Down south, there aren't so many Mormons or Catholics. Mostly Baptist and Methodist, I'd say.

Yeah, how many Christian socialists have you met? :D


Since when was Christ a socialist?

Since when was Christ a socialist?
Since he didn't charge people for his catering miracles.

You know, free fish and loaves for people too lazy to pack a lunch.

Free wine.

Very socialist. In fact, he made a habit out of giving free medical care, even to the dead.

Sigh i understand now why the Mods dont like these types of threads. what was meant to be a simple ask question forum, turned into a huge full fledged debate.

Sigh i understand now why the Mods dont like these types of threads. what was meant to be a simple ask question forum, turned into a huge full fledged debate.
The purpose of NS General is full fledged debate.

Since when was Christ a socialist?
Since always, actually. What he preached was a primitive socialism. Brother's keeper, etc.

Since when was Christ a socialist?

From Luke 18:

When Jesus heard this he said to him, "There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
But when he heard this he became quite sad, for he was very rich.
Jesus looked at him (now sad) and said, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!
For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.

It's not Marxism, but really, what does it sound like to you?

Sigh i understand now why the Mods dont like these types of threads. what was meant to be a simple ask question forum, turned into a huge full fledged debate.


Welcome to a forum full of political debaters.

The purpose of NS General is full fledged debate.

And here I thought it existed so that people on all sides can make themselves look foolish.

And here I thought it existed so that people on all sides can make themselves look foolish.

A side benefit.

Am I too late with the popcorn? :(

yeah but wasnt my intentions with starting the thread. My purpose was to answer questions if people had any as best as i could. Now with so many different conversations its impossible for me to do so.

Since when was Christ a socialist?

Look it up on google, it's pretty interesting.

There are alot of false christians out there. I will not lie to you about that. I will even concede that there are many of them. To say though that they are 99% of the Christian population, that I will doubt. Thank you though for being honest.
Depends on what your level of acceptance of “Christ like” is

What’s your error deviation?

In his original statement he said 99 percent of Christians are not “Christ like”

If you have no deviation for error NO Christians are really Christ “Like” as supposedly there is only one person exactly like Christ

I think you are not understanding what is being said here. It was not to convert people to judiaism (since this was done in Exodus and thus BEFORE CHRIST), but to prove beyond doubt that God is more powerful than the gods of Egypt. He was waging spiritual warfare in essence against the gods of Egypt.

But there were no egyptian gods. How can there have been when he is the omnipotent creator of the universe?

He was punishing people for believeing in something other than him, something that seems to go against the very basis of the christian religion, you either have free will or you don't.

From Luke 18:



It's not Marxism, but really, what does it sound like to you?





well heres another example of missunderstanding Christ was not telling everyone to sell all their belongings. He was telling this one child to sell his stuff because he knew that the child loved money more than God. As you can see as the Child walked away dissapointed.

Welcome to a forum full of political debaters.
Agreed we may not always be good but that is the purpose of the forum

Welcome to a forum full of political debaters.


why i tend to stay off the NS forums.

can i ask you all to take the Debate somewhere else? cause as much as i love debates (and trust me I LOVE Debates if i had time id watch Cspan) its really hindering me from doing what i wanted to with this thread.

Just read the words in red, then. You'll find it basic and inoffensive.
I agree for the most part … I am not saying all things that the Christian religion teaches is bad … I just find it silly to attribute some of the basic ones to anything more then what is needed to function in a society

I see it as an example of a religion adopting and promoting what was already needed in the society.

My only problem is when people try to push that beyond what is needed and start fucking with my life using that myth to justify their actions.

can i ask you all to take the Debate somewhere else? cause as much as i love debates (and trust me I LOVE Debates if i had time id watch Cspan) its really hindering me from doing what i wanted to with this thread.

Which is what?

well heres another example of missunderstanding Christ was not telling everyone to sell all their belongings. He was telling this one child to sell his stuff because he knew that the child loved money more than God. As you can see as the Child walked away dissapointed.

This teaching should go for everyone, though. Like the rich man, we all have an instinct to pile up wealth for ourselves and forget the hardships of others. By giving a part of our wealth to the poor, Jesus says that God will be pleased with us, and presumably that society will run more smoothly. It sounds like a kind of socialism to me.

Which is what?
Preach ... He does not want what he say questioned he wants to simply say it in response to a question

Too bad that is not how this forum works:p

Which is what?


i wanted to have a thread where i can answer questions people had, like "Hey what does this mean, or Why is God such a buttmunch etc etc" not this whole debate that seems to have arrised. I realize everyone has an oppinion but please, take it somewhere else?

can i ask you all to take the Debate somewhere else? cause as much as i love debates (and trust me I LOVE Debates if i had time id watch Cspan) its really hindering me from doing what i wanted to with this thread.

I have one for you. What is your view on the Rapture?

i wanted to have a thread where i can answer questions people had, like "Hey what does this mean, or Why is God such a buttmunch etc etc" not this whole debate that seems to have arrised. I realize everyone has an oppinion but please, take it somewhere else?

You shouldn't have expected different. Most of the people here are fairly skeptical and critical of organized religion.

My only problem is when people try to push that beyond what is needed and start fucking with my life using that myth to justify their actions.




pushing how?

pushing how?
For example pushing “Blue” laws in states … we are STILL working to clean those needless things up.

i wanted to have a thread where i can answer questions people had, like "Hey what does this mean, or Why is God such a buttmunch etc etc" not this whole debate that seems to have arrised. I realize everyone has an oppinion but please, take it somewhere else?

Here's one. Which is the correct version of the Bible and why?

I have one for you. What is your view on the Rapture?

while i have yet to find the verse that acutally depicts it............im still waiting. BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!

i wanted to have a thread where i can answer questions people had, like "Hey what does this mean, or Why is God such a buttmunch etc etc" not this whole debate that seems to have arrised. I realize everyone has an oppinion but please, take it somewhere else?

Yeah i see, someone asks you a question, you offer your reasoning. He challenges your reasoning, you reply etc.. How can you not expect that to be a debate.

while i have yet to find the verse that acutally depicts it............im still waiting. BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!

Do you believe in it?

For example pushing “Blue” laws in states … we are STILL working to clean those needless things up.

I've been here to long. This is how I read your post at first:

"For example pushing “Blue” states … we are STILL working to clean those needless things up."

@ Kecibukia what you mean by Versions?

@ Hydesland debate on a much smaller scale, like a conversation almost, not this everyone putting their two scents in and such.

@ Allegheny County yes i do

I've been here to long. This is how I read your post at first:

"For example pushing “Blue” states … we are STILL working to clean those needless things up."
LOL! :)

@ Kecibukia what you mean by Versions?



NIV, KJV, NKJV, RSE, etc.

They all are different, some even including/excluding various books.

Which is the "definitive"? The "correct" one?

I've been here to long. This is how I read your post at first:

"For example pushing “Blue” states … we are STILL working to clean those needless things up."

as a registered republican, i found this quite humorous

as a registered republican, i found this quite humorous
So did I as a … well non registered independent libertarian

Specially when you consider the irony

@ Allegheny County yes i do

Do you believe it will take place before the Tribulation or taking place before the Great Tribulation?

So did I as a … well non registered independent libertarian

Specially when you consider the irony

I'm still waiting for him to explain "Jesus the Socialist Distributor Of Free Meals" or "Jesus The Socialist Provider Of Free Health Care, Even To The Dead".

Do you believe it will take place before the Tribulation or taking place before the Great Tribulation?


huh?

I believe the rapture will occur long before the bad stuff starts happening. Revelations is mostly fulfilled just hte last two chapter hasnt happened yet or so

So did I as a … well non registered independent libertarian

Specially when you consider the irony


Libertarians are fun, id love to BL u to have some fun debates in teh future;)

huh?

I believe the rapture will occur long before the bad stuff starts happening. Revelations is mostly fulfilled just hte last two chapter hasnt happened yet or so

Mostly fullfilled? The twenty-one Judgments of God have yet to occur. What do you make of the Book of Ezekial and what it says about God saving Israel from destruction?

NIV, KJV, NKJV, RSE, etc.

They all are different, some even including/excluding various books.

Which is the "definitive"? The "correct" one?


NIV NRSV etc etc are all different Translations of the original Greek Bible.

King James version i tend to stay away from because its hard to read.

NIV i found is the easiest to understand.


The 4 different bibles. Protestant bible. the Apocra (catholicism) the book of morman. and the Jehovas witness bible.

The Morman And Jehovas Wintess I disregard because of their history. Apocra well......im not Catholic, So i follow the protestant Bible.

The Protestant bible has less books than the Catholic bible, but the Apocra doesnt include Revelations.

NIV NRSV etc etc are all different Translations of the original Greek Bible.

King James version i tend to stay away from because its hard to read.

NIV i found is the easiest to understand.


The 4 different bibles. Protestant bible. the Apocra (catholicism) the book of morman. and the Jehovas witness bible.

The Morman And Jehovas Wintess I disregard because of their history. Apocra well......im not Catholic, So i follow the protestant Bible.

The Protestant bible has less books than the Catholic bible, but the Apocra doesnt include Revelations.

So which Bible is the accurate one? Or, at least, the most accurate?

Libertarians are fun, id love to BL u to have some fun debates in teh future;)
Will do no problem ... Like I said I come here for the debate I dont mind listening dont get me wrong but expect a fight :)

Mostly fullfilled? The twenty-one Judgments of God have yet to occur. What do you make of the Book of Ezekial and what it says about God saving Israel from destruction?


if you read Revelations it talks about the Dragon laying seige to the Camp of Isreal an then God destroying Israels enemies. Doesnt that kinda sound like the same thing. Read the Left behind series, that really is how i picture it to happen.

Caution - If Rapture Occurs, Vehicle May Be Unmanned

This teaching should go for everyone, though. Like the rich man, we all have an instinct to pile up wealth for ourselves and forget the hardships of others. By giving a part of our wealth to the poor, Jesus says that God will be pleased with us, and presumably that society will run more smoothly. It sounds like a kind of socialism to me.

I always find it amusing that so many of the Christians who condemn homosexuality so strongly are equally enraged by the idea of a national health service or social security for the vulnerable.

I also like the way that said 'Christians' accuse more liberal Christians of picking and choosing their beliefs.

FYI: It's "Revelation" (no s) or "The Apocalypse of John" (not to be confused with the gospellic John or epistle John. 3 different Johns).

if you read Revelations it talks about the Dragon laying seige to the Camp of Isreal an then God destroying Israels enemies. Doesnt that kinda sound like the same thing. Read the Left behind series, that really is how i picture it to happen.

I have all 14 books of the Left Behind Series. It is a fun read and I enjoyed all the books. However, one must remember that it is a Religious Fiction series.

I'm still waiting for him to explain "Jesus the Socialist Distributor Of Free Meals" or "Jesus The Socialist Provider Of Free Health Care, Even To The Dead".



scuse me.....im laughing to hard at his one. not that its invalid just the way you worded it. Jesus preached love and Care to all. If thats socialism, then well guess Jesus was a socialist. OR was socialism based of Jesus's teachings. Ooooo i love mind games.

Jesus preached love and Care to all. If thats socialism, then well guess Jesus was a socialist. OR was socialism based of Jesus's teachings. Ooooo i love mind games.

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability.

Oh, and Jesus did that, but someone else said it much later.

I have all 14 books of the Left Behind Series. It is a fun read and I enjoyed all the books. However, one must remember that it is a Religious Fiction series.


oh i know. It just seems logical to my mind that thats how it would happen. Only God knows how its gonna happen.

Caution - If Rapture Occurs, Vehicle May Be Unmanned

I should put that on my car when I get one :D

oh i know. It just seems logical to my mind that thats how it would happen. Only God knows how its gonna happen.

There we will agree with.

FYI: It's "Revelation" (no s) or "The Apocalypse of John" (not to be confused with the gospellic John or epistle John. 3 different Johns).

thanks for the note but still it was obvious what i meant.

There we will agree with.


what Denom to u hail ffrom?

I always find it amusing that so many of the Christians who condemn homosexuality so strongly are equally enraged by the idea of a national health service or social security for the vulnerable.

I also like the way that said 'Christians' accuse more liberal Christians of picking and choosing their beliefs.

That's one of the things most outrageous about the Bush Administration. The President evokes God every five minutes, and all the while he screws the poor, cuts federal funding to education, pushes to kill Social Security and so on.

I should put that on my car when I get one :D


lol i need to find that one, for my car.

see the Socialism spawned from Jesus's Teachings. it promotes Christ LIke actions.

Oh, you mean ideas like "Religion is the opiate of the masses"?

what Denom to u hail ffrom?

I would rather not say what my denomination is if that is ok.

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability.

Oh, and Jesus did that, but someone else said it much later.



see the Socialism spawned from Jesus's Teachings. it promotes Christ LIke actions. ive been saying for years that the US gov needs to take control of the Health Industry and make healthcare and stuff free. But the problem is, how do you go about it? how many jobs will be lost if we just seize it over night.

I would rather not say what my denomination is if that is ok.


Christ said "if you are ashamed of me, i will be ashamed of you before my father."

No thats cool man, i understand. But TG me? if you dont want to make it public. im just curious, cause me .... IM A BAPTIST!! WOOT!! well...baptist to me makes the most sense i should say

Oh, you mean ideas like "Religion is the opiate of the masses"?
FYI: Marx never said that.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

FYI: Marx never said that.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Close enough not to be a "Christ-like" action.

I would rather not say what my denomination is if that is ok.
Why not? its always intresting to meet people of different denominations

I am ex catholic if that helps

FYI: Marx never said that.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
It's actually kind of an interesting statement, when you really read into it.

Most people interpret that saying to mean, "Religion is a drug for dopes" or something like that. What Marx was really saying is that religion is used to fulfill the needs of people who SHOULD be having all their needs fulfilled by the State. In his view, the State should be everything its people need, and religion should disappear because it should be totally unnecessary. He saw religion as a logical result of this kind of failure by the State.

I think this is especially interesting if you put it along side the attitudes of some Christian denominations, in which people are encouraged to draw all their strength and "nourishmen" from the Lord. People are told that God will give them all they need, and that God will watch over their lives. In Marx's view, those functions should be filled by the State; to Christians, they are God's purview. Pretty similar systems, philosophically speaking.

well i suppose the fact that Marx was an athiest cant be helped. but its true that Socialism promotes Christ like behavior.

It's actually kind of an interesting statement, when you really read into it.

Most people interpret that saying to mean, "Religion is a drug for dopes" or something like that. What Marx was really saying is that religion is used to fulfill the needs of people who SHOULD be having all their needs fulfilled by the State. In his view, the State should be everything its people need, and religion should disappear because it should be totally unnecessary. He saw religion as a logical result of this kind of failure by the State.
He also said the state would eventually wither away. I dunno--Marxism is self-contradictory nonsense anyway.

well i suppose the fact that Marx was an athiest cant be helped. but its true that Socialism promotes Christ like behavior.
1. a-t-h-E-I-s-t

2. He was a jew.

He also said the state would eventually wither away. I dunno--Marxism is self-contradictory nonsense anyway.
I'm certainly not going to contradict you on that one...I've never been much for Marxism as a general philosophy. But I do think Marx had some very interesting points.

alright i gotta go i got stuff to do today. This has been fun and im looking forward to questions when i get back to night but heres a few examples of what i had hoped posts to look like..



http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11585438&postcount=34



http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11585500&postcount=40

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11585369&postcount=18

1. a-t-h-E-I-s-t

2. He was a jew.

He could have been a Jewish atheist. I know a whole lot of them.

I'm certainly not going to contradict you on that one...I've never been much for Marxism as a general philosophy. But I do think Marx had some very interesting points.


i find marxism to be a Flawed theory because it doesnt take into account human nature, but hey thats another post for another thread.

Christ said "if you are ashamed of me, i will be ashamed of you before my father."

No thats cool man, i understand. But TG me? if you dont want to make it public. im just curious, cause me .... IM A BAPTIST!! WOOT!! well...baptist to me makes the most sense i should say

I am a methodist.

I am a methodist.
Cool I have had a lot of debates but I dont remember any being with a methodist ... nice to know

Christ said "if you are ashamed of me, i will be ashamed of you before my father."

No thats cool man, i understand. But TG me? if you dont want to make it public. im just curious, cause me .... IM A BAPTIST!! WOOT!! well...baptist to me makes the most sense i should say
just a generic baptist or a certain brand. I only ask because a LOT of what I have saw you say doesn't seem to fit in line with the Southern Baptist doctrine to which I adhere.

just a generic baptist or a certain brand. I only ask because a LOT of what I have saw you say doesn't seem to fit in line with the Southern Baptist doctrine to which I adhere.
hehehe reminds me of emo phillips

was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge,
about to jump off. So I ran over and said "stop! don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!"

I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed
Baptist Church of God?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879,
or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

hehehe reminds me of emo phillips
HA HA ROFL :D

priceless.

(and sadly quite true at times)

HA HA ROFL :D

priceless.

(and sadly quite true at times)
Hehehe he had a lot of good quotes on religion
The toughest time...in anyone's life...is when you have to kill a loved one just because they're the devil. -- Emo Phillips

and When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I
realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole
one and asked him to forgive me.

Hehehe he had a lot of good quotes on religion
oh, you are killing me:p

I only ask what brand of Baptist because I don't want to be associated with someone who does not believe what I do by name of my denomination, for example Phelps is not Southern Baptist, but when people hear Baptist their minds go to him and Robertson (even though Robertson lost his fucking mind AFTER he broke ties with the SBC, seems we were "too liberal")

oh, you are killing me:p

I only ask what brand of Baptist because I don't want to be associated with someone who does not believe what I do by name of my denomination, for example Phelps is not Southern Baptist, but when people hear Baptist their minds go to him and Robertson (even though Robertson lost his fucking mind AFTER he broke ties with the SBC, seems we were "too liberal")
I understand … and understand how you defiantly hold different views at times.

Though when you stand outside and see all this fracturing as far as ACTUAL beliefs go you have to realize how that makes religion in general look.

Every single one of those sub groups thinks THEY have the real way to follow god or behave or which version of the book to read. It is so obvious that it is just humans thinking whatever they want to think not nessisarliy what god wanted

I understand … and understand how you defiantly hold different views at times.

Though when you stand outside and see all this fracturing as far as ACTUAL beliefs go you have to realize how that makes religion in general look.

Every single one of those sub groups thinks THEY have the real way to follow god or behave or which version of the book to read. It is so obvious that it is just humans thinking whatever they want to think not nessisarliy what god wanted
oh, definately, I so get where people think religion (organized anyway) is a bunch of bunk, and basically a popularity contest. I get the feeling that a lot of "Christians" choice of denomination has less to do with what they believe based on scripture and more to do with what someone who "sounded good" told them.

When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I
realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole
one and asked him to forgive me.


This is my new favorite quote. Thanks.

This is my new favorite quote. Thanks.
Try this:
once knew an Episcopalian lady in Newport, Rhode Island, who asked me to design and build a doghouse for her Great Dane. The lady claimed to understand God and His Ways of Working perfectly. She could not understand why anyone should be puzzled about what had been or about what was going to be.
And yet, whe i showed her a blueprint of the doghouse I proposed to build, she said to me, 'I'm sorry, but I never could read one of those things.'
'Give it to your husband or your minister to pass on to God,' I said 'and, when God finds a minute, I'm sure he'll explain this doghouse of mine in a way that even you can understand.'
She fired me. I shall never forget her. She believed that God liked people in sailboats much better than He liked people in motorboats. She could not bear to look at a worm. When she saw a worm, she screamed.
She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is Doing,

just a generic baptist or a certain brand. I only ask because a LOT of what I have saw you say doesn't seem to fit in line with the Southern Baptist doctrine to which I adhere.


i am a southern Baptist, so maybe you dont know what souther Baptist Doctrine Really is? as well as you might think anyway?

I understand … and understand how you defiantly hold different views at times.

Though when you stand outside and see all this fracturing as far as ACTUAL beliefs go you have to realize how that makes religion in general look.

Every single one of those sub groups thinks THEY have the real way to follow god or behave or which version of the book to read. It is so obvious that it is just humans thinking whatever they want to think not nessisarliy what god wanted


I find that Christian Denomonations are like different paths up the same mountain, Christ is at the top and we all try as best we can to make it to the top.

There is no one Correct Denomonation of Christianity i find, hence why i dont really like to say I belong to any one Denomonation, because even in the SBC i dont agree with some stuff they say.

1. a-t-h-E-I-s-t

2. He was a jew.
It really amazes me how far anti-atheist revisionism has spread. The whole "Hitler was an atheist" thing is just mind-boggling. And they can't even SPELL it.

It really amazes me how far anti-atheist revisionism has spread. The whole "Hitler was an atheist" thing is just mind-boggling. And they can't even SPELL it.


America loves having a sub-culture to oppress.
Earlier in the 20th Century, it was the blacks.
In the 80's and even today, its the gays.

Welcome to the future.

Atheists are the new "Niggers".

America loves having a sub-culture to oppress.
Earlier in the 20th Century, it was the blacks.
In the 80's and even today, its the gays.

Welcome to the future.

Atheists are the new "Niggers".
As somebody who is female, non-heterosexual, and atheist, can I just say:

This bullshit is getting really old. Why the fuck am I ALWAYS part of the demographic that is getting shit on the most? The only way I could be worse off is if I were a female non-heterosexual atheist Arab, for crying out loud.

Christians seem to really really like being oppressed and put-upon. Hell, they work themselves into a frenzy when our federal government doesn't spend enough money teaching kids about Jesus, so they obviously are just looking for ways to be oppressed. What if we actually were to oppress them? They'd be happy, we'd have a target who ISN'T ME...everybody wins!

As somebody who is female, non-heterosexual, and atheist, can I just say:

This bullshit is getting really old. Why the fuck am I ALWAYS part of the demographic that is getting shit on the most? The only way I could be worse off is if I were a female non-heterosexual atheist Arab, for crying out loud.

Christians seem to really really like being oppressed and put-upon. Hell, they work themselves into a frenzy when our federal government doesn't spend enough money teaching kids about Jesus, so they obviously are just looking for ways to be oppressed. What if we actually were to oppress them? They'd be happy, we'd have a target who ISN'T ME...everybody wins!


I have a hard time blaming them.
Its almost not thier fault.

What can appeal more to a zealot, than martyrdom?
How can you be a martyr, if you dont have an enemy to "oppress" you?
What better enemy than the direct opposition?

Curse you Atheists for oppressing us peace-loving Christians!
We will die to "save" America from you Heathens!

Almost funny, isnt it?

As for you being the target demographic....

Well, whatever doesnt kill ya, sweetheart......

I have a hard time blaming them.
Its almost not thier fault.

What can appeal more to a zealot, than martyrdom?
How can you be a martyr, if you dont have an enemy to "oppress" you?
What better enemy than the direct opposition?

Curse you Atheists for oppressing us peace-loving Christians!
We will die to "save" America from you Heathens!

Almost funny, isnt it?

Yeah, it's funny. But it's not funny "Ha-ha," it's funny "Uh-oh."


As for you being the target demographic....

Well, whatever doesnt kill ya, sweetheart......
Hmm. If what doesn't kill me makes me stronger, then I think this would be a great time to challenge Hercules to an arm-wrestling match...:D

Got questions about Christianity, Dont like particular verses. about why life tends to suck more than be good? Well im here to defend my Religion. Ask me, give me a referance and ill Answer you as best i Can (Please no: "Why bother theres no God Anyway")


Yeah I got one,(if you are still around) So God is a loving God, why then would God create sooo many differant types of people with sooo many differant types of mind and soooo many differant modes and methods of thought, yet create only one way to reach God?

This bullshit is getting really old. Why the fuck am I ALWAYS part of the demographic that is getting shit on the most? The only way I could be worse off is if I were a female non-heterosexual atheist Arab, for crying out loud.


Are you white?

Are you white?
I'm a "mutt." For the people who are dumb enough to care about "whiteness," I'm not white enough. My father's family is also Eastern European Jews and gypsies, so you can imagine how much the Nazis love me. :)

I'm a "mutt." For the people who are dumb enough to care about "whiteness," I'm not white enough. My father's family is also Eastern European Jews and gypsies, so you can imagine how much the Nazis love me. :)
oooh, and we know how powerful the Nazi Party is today... :rolleyes

I'm a "mutt." For the people who are dumb enough to care about "whiteness," I'm not white enough. My father's family is also Eastern European Jews and gypsies, so you can imagine how much the Nazis love me. :)

So, essentially yes.

Really, if you are white and in the US, there is not that much to worry about demographics wise. I say this as a white person who is also an atheist.

(tho' if you live somewhere that being part eastern european jew is 'not white', or even that people care about that, then get the fuk out now. It is evil.)

oooh, and we know how powerful the Nazi Party is today... :rolleyes
Racist organizations in general aren't holding a ton of power (in my country) these days. What's your point?

Racist organizations in general aren't holding a ton of power (in my country) these days. What's your point?

That being afraid of Nazis is fairly silly.

You aren't likely to run into one. Even better, none are in power (in the US where I live). Their party holds no seats anywhere that I know of.

IIRC, you said you were in Foggy Bottom. Hardly a hotbed of Nazi activism. Unless Georgetown has radically changed since yesterday.

Didn't Abraham's god tell him to sacrafice his own son?

Hmmm... if I remember the story correctly, he did, but then spared him, and then much later down the line, Abraham's God actually ended up sacrificing his own son.

If I created something out of clay and it stood up and started talking back to me, I don't know about you, but that's a piece of clay I would crush! I think God is quite patient with us.

So, essentially yes.

Really, if you are white and in the US, there is not that much to worry about demographics wise. I say this as a white person who is also an atheist.

I guess maybe it depends on where you live. In my lifetime, we've never had a US president suggest that black people should not be considered citizens of the United States; we have had a president state that atheists should not be considered citizens. In my lifetime, we've never had our government pass laws that remove civil rights on the basis of race; we have government on both federal and state levels voting to do so on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, and religious belief. In my lifetime, we've never had federal funding being spent to teach children that it's immoral to be black, but we have federal money being used to teach them that morality requires God-belief.

I don't say any of this because I'm trying to trivialize racism. I know it still exists, and it is still a huge fucking problem. The difference is that mainstream society recognizes racism for the bigotry that it is, and it is no longer possible to be openly racist in mainstream society. We've got recent examples in the news of what happens to politicians or public figures who make overtly racist comments...it ain't pretty.

At the same time, it is completely acceptable to say sexist, homophobic, or anti-atheist things. Indeed, being anti-atheist is pretty much a requirement for somebody who wants a political career!

Mostly this is just me being self-pitying, because I happen to have been born in a time and place where essentially every demographic I fit into is the target of institutionalized mainstream discrimination. It gets really boring and tiring after a while. :P

That being afraid of Nazis is fairly silly.

Well...yes. Which is why I'm not afraid of Nazis. Where did I say I was?


You aren't likely to run into one. Even better, none are in power (in the US where I live). Their party holds no seats anywhere that I know of.

IIRC, you said you were in Foggy Bottom. Hardly a hotbed of Nazi activism. Unless Georgetown has radically changed since yesterday.
Seriously, where did I say I was afraid of Nazis? I made a joking comment about how much Nazis really love Eastern European Jews. Shouldn't that tip you off as to my flippant attitude about Nazis? They're a joke to me.

As somebody who is female, non-heterosexual, and atheist, can I just say:

This bullshit is getting really old. Why the fuck am I ALWAYS part of the demographic that is getting shit on the most? The only way I could be worse off is if I were a female non-heterosexual atheist Arab, for crying out loud.

Christians seem to really really like being oppressed and put-upon. Hell, they work themselves into a frenzy when our federal government doesn't spend enough money teaching kids about Jesus, so they obviously are just looking for ways to be oppressed. What if we actually were to oppress them? They'd be happy, we'd have a target who ISN'T ME...everybody wins!

What the heck are you talking about? I don't like being oppressed! And I've never particularly thought of this world as "heaven", but I don't mind it so much for now.

Got questions about Christianity, Dont like particular verses. about why life tends to suck more than be good? Well im here to defend my Religion. Ask me, give me a referance and ill Answer you as best i Can (Please no: "Why bother theres no God Anyway")
I've got a question. When Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father except through me." most christians see it as saying only accepting Jesus brings you to god. Couldn't it also mean that God couldn't forgive humans without experiencing life as a human? Remember the old testament god was an asshole. Mix the incense wrong? I'll kill ya. Have but sex? I'll kill yer whole city. Piss me off enough and I'll kill everyone except the Noah family. Maybe Jesus didn't die for humans, but he died for God to understand humans.

Couldn't it be interpreted differently? Couldn't one draw the conclusion that God doesn't care if your christian, he understands what it's like to be a human now and he'll accept you if you struggle to be decent?

Yeah I got one,(if you are still around) So God is a loving God, why then would God create sooo many differant types of people with sooo many differant types of mind and soooo many differant modes and methods of thought, yet create only one way to reach God?


The better question, I think, would be "Why would God create a way at all?" I'm kind of glad there is one, but it kind of blows me away still.

What the heck are you talking about? I don't like being oppressed! And I've never particularly thought of this world as "heaven", but I don't mind it so much for now.
For the record, I was not actually serious about wanting to oppress Christians. I'd prefer to live in a world where nobody is oppressed at all.

I guess maybe it depends on where you live. In my lifetime, we've never had a US president suggest that black people should not be considered citizens of the United States; we have had a president state that atheists should not be considered citizens. In my lifetime, we've never had our government pass laws that remove civil rights on the basis of race; we have government on both federal and state levels voting to do so on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, and religious belief. In my lifetime, we've never had federal funding being spent to teach children that it's immoral to be black, but we have federal money being used to teach them that morality requires God-belief.

I don't say any of this because I'm trying to trivialize racism. I know it still exists, and it is still a huge fucking problem. The difference is that mainstream society recognizes racism for the bigotry that it is, and it is no longer possible to be openly racist in mainstream society. We've got recent examples in the news of what happens to politicians or public figures who make overtly racist comments...it ain't pretty.

At the same time, it is completely acceptable to say sexist, homophobic, or anti-atheist things. Indeed, being anti-atheist is pretty much a requirement for somebody who wants a political career!

Mostly this is just me being self-pitying, because I happen to have been born in a time and place where essentially every demographic I fit into is the target of institutionalized mainstream discrimination. It gets really boring and tiring after a while. :P

Yea, look, I agree with you about things like gay marriage. That's a huge issue obviously.

Really though, living where I do, NYC, being an atheist really isn't all that big of a deal. I suppose that makes me ignore, or at least not pay attention to, some of the stuff you are talking about. It just never comes up. There is still a huge amount of structural racism though, despite official condemnation. At the end of the day, from my experiences, as long as you are white you've pretty much missed out on 90% of the crap that the US dishes out. Official policies notwithstanding.

Also, some places in this county are just ignorant and retarded - I'm looking at you south of the mason dixon line. I once made the huge mistake of going on a beach vacation with a non-white girlfriend down south. Those people are evil and something should be done about them.

I've got a question. When Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father except through me." most christians see it as saying only accepting Jesus brings you to god. Couldn't it also mean that God couldn't forgive humans without experiencing life as a human? Remember the old testament god was an asshole. Mix the incense wrong? I'll kill ya. Have but sex? I'll kill yer whole city. Piss me off enough and I'll kill everyone except the Noah family. Maybe Jesus didn't die for humans, but he died for God to understand humans.

Couldn't it be interpreted differently? Couldn't one draw the conclusion that God doesn't care if your christian, he understands what it's like to be a human now and he'll accept you if you struggle to be decent?
I think you're right about God having to become human in order to forgive humans, but the "only through me" part still applies, unfortunately.

For the record, I was not actually serious about wanting to oppress Christians. I'd prefer to live in a world where nobody is oppressed at all.
I sometimes think, when I'm being flippant and sarcastic myself, that Christianity jumped the shark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_the_shark) when it took over the Roman Empire and became the Establishment instead of a sometimes persecuted, at best tolerated "other" religion. When you've been the only game in town for better than a thousands years, you tend to forget how to be humble.

I think you're right about God having to become human in order to forgive humans, but the "only through me" part still applies, unfortunately.


<snip>.
Why do you think the "only through me" part necessarily means you must embrace Christianity? It could well mean that only through me suffering as a human could god learn to empathize with humans and now he accepts everyone who struggles to do what's right.

I sometimes think, when I'm being flippant and sarcastic myself, that Christianity jumped the shark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_the_shark) when it took over the Roman Empire and became the Establishment instead of a sometimes persecuted, at best tolerated "other" religion. When you've been the only game in town for better than a thousands years, you tend to forget how to be humble.
I think part of the problem is that so much of Christianity is wrapped up in martyrdom. Pretty much every major player in the Bible has to get martyred in one way or another...even GOD managed to get martyred, by virtue of the whole Trinity thing (since God is the Son as well as Father and Ghost and all that). So what do you do, then, when you are a follower of Holy Martyrdom, yet your faction holds all the power in your society? You get damn confused, I should think.

I think part of the problem is that so much of Christianity is wrapped up in martyrdom. Pretty much every major player in the Bible has to get martyred in one way or another...even GOD managed to get martyred, by virtue of the whole Trinity thing (since God is the Son as well as Father and Ghost and all that). So what do you do, then, when you are a follower of Holy Martyrdom, yet your faction holds all the power in your society? You get damn confused, I should think.
I absolutely agree. And like I said, I think Christianity did much of its better work back before it held all power in society.

Of course, you could also make the case that Christianity, by telling people that this world doesn't matter and that the best rewards come after you die, retarded human progress. After all, why invent something new to make life here easier when life here doesn't matter and is, in fact, a kind of punishment?

Why do you think the "only through me" part necessarily means you must embrace Christianity? It could well mean that only through me suffering as a human could god learn to empathize with humans and now he accepts everyone who struggles to do what's right.
That's how I understand it. I'd love to hear a Christian clergyman contradict me, I would.

That's how I understand it. I'd love to hear a Christian clergyman contradict me, I would.
So would I. The evolution of Christianity has been marked by new interpretations of the religion that often are labeled heresy at first, then become accepted theology. I think making the theology more inclusive and tolerant would be a great thing.

So would I. The evolution of Christianity has been marked by new interpretations of the religion that often are labeled heresy at first, then become accepted theology. I think making the theology more inclusive and tolerant would be a great thing.

One of the things that I got out of reading the New Testament (just the words in red) was a lot of that simplicity.

Maybe we should start a new movement, called "Simple Christianity".

One thing that I've always wanted to address was transubstantiation. Sounds bogus to me.

Jesus is sitting there, knowing he's going to be betrayed and die, and what do you think he's going to talk about. Sport scores? Sex? Something important?

Ah, yes, something important. And you can be sure that the message would be SIMPLE so that an idiot could understand it.

You eat when you're hungry. You drink when you're thirsty. And if you're spiritually starving, you need to find a way to satisfy that, too. And he said it because most people are TOO FUCKING STUPID to acknowledge that last part.

You don't have to believe in God to know that you have spiritual needs.

God would, he is omnipotent.

I think you mean omnibenevolant (can't spell) in this instance. Also WTF is up with the forums today?

So would I. The evolution of Christianity has been marked by new interpretations of the religion that often are labeled heresy at first, then become accepted theology. I think making the theology more inclusive and tolerant would be a great thing.
That’s certainly true, although what you’re asking for is a bit of a stretch. It comes down to Christianity without Christ, and I doubt that even the most liberal Christian is willing to go that far.

I enjoy reasonable discussions of religion but it all comes down to talking about who has the best imaginary friend. And what bothers me about religions – pretty much all of them – is that they are based on the proposition that human beings are incapable of goodness without divine encouragement and intervention. I find that insulting, when I’m grouchy, and merely sad when I’m in a better mood. It’s right up there with the “aliens built the pyramids” ideas, the ones that say that just about every notable achievement of humanity on Earth was either done by visitors from another world or at least designed by them. Humans were just the construction workers, at best.

What does Christianity offer (this is a thread on Christianity)? “You’re a sinner, always have been, always will be, your ancestors were, all the way back to Adam and Eve, but if you acknowledge your deplorable nature and surrender your will to me, I forgive you. You’ll have to toe the line, of course, and being such a terrible sinner, we both know you’ll be in constant need of confession and forgiveness, and if you screw up, well, you’ll just have to beg for forgiveness over and over. If you don’t, I have some interesting punishments lined up.”

Anyway, here endeth the rant.

I think you mean omnibenevolant (can't spell) in this instance. Also WTF is up with the forums today?
Really! Slow I can deal with but they seem to be appearing and disappearing randomly, half the time I'm getting "cannot find server" errors.

I've got a question. When Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father except through me." most christians see it as saying only accepting Jesus brings you to god. Couldn't it also mean that God couldn't forgive humans without experiencing life as a human? Remember the old testament god was an asshole. Mix the incense wrong? I'll kill ya. Have but sex? I'll kill yer whole city. Piss me off enough and I'll kill everyone except the Noah family. Maybe Jesus didn't die for humans, but he died for God to understand humans.

Couldn't it be interpreted differently? Couldn't one draw the conclusion that God doesn't care if your christian, he understands what it's like to be a human now and he'll accept you if you struggle to be decent?
considering that whats wrong with this world is god's fuckup, i dont see why your interpretation shouldnt be correct.

how long did adam and eve last in the garden of eden before they got booted out? how many generations between adam and noah before the world was so bad that god needed to start all over again by wiping out almost all life on earth?

it was god's mistake and god fixed it by becoming man, preaching the truth, and dying in atonement for his own mistakes.

if there is no god but GOD, whenever we worship ANY "god" we worship the one god. jesus may have fixed what was wrong in the whole "how to get to the blessed afterlife" thing but i dont see why going through him requires an embrace of modern christianity (which would have been unrecognizable by jesus anyway). its ludicrous to think that god only saved a handful of jews and greeks way back in the 1st century ad and meant to send all others to firey torment as punishment for incorrect worship rites.

Yeah he could, But would everyone believe it. No. Wed still have skeptics saying this and that. I mean, Jesus appeared to the world. And not everyone believes in him. Yet he is God. so ure little theory doesnt work.

But say, Fire raining from the sky. Boils Plaugue Destruction. Youd believe that wouldnt you?

I would war against any being horrible enough to do these things.

I would war against any being horrible enough to do these things.
Don't waste your time. That being is the invention of Middle Eastern tribes who were pissed off at being on the short end of the stick versus Egypt. He doesn't exist any more than any imaginary friend (or in this case, abusive parent) does.

Don't waste your time. That being is the invention of Middle Eastern tribes who were pissed off at being on the short end of the stick versus Egypt. He doesn't exist any more than any imaginary friend (or in this case, abusive parent) does.
I talk to God every night, and He's never said anything about you. You don't exist except as a bot that posts on NS General.

The better question, I think, would be "Why would God create a way at all?" I'm kind of glad there is one, but it kind of blows me away still.


Heh I think that has been answered in the 'Sooo God is a lovin' God...' bit.

i am a southern Baptist, so maybe you dont know what souther Baptist Doctrine Really is? as well as you might think anyway?
oh, I know the Baptist Doctrine, better than most, my husband being an ordainded Southern Baptist Minister. Unlike you I can come up with scriptural backing for everything I say, and I can come up with backing in the Baptist Faith and Message should I want to to prove that it is doctrinally in line with what the SBC believes.

Perhaps some Viagra would help
Who do you think invented it?

God would, he is omnipotent.

Perhaps some Viagra would help

You don't have to believe in God to know that you have spiritual needs.
That's true, you don't. However, the term "spiritual" has become so muddled that many of us view it as pretty useless. I know that I have emotional needs, or psychological needs if you like, but I think it would be extremely misleading to refer to any of my needs as "spiritual."

That's true, you don't. However, the term "spiritual" has become so muddled that many of us view it as pretty useless. I know that I have emotional needs, or psychological needs if you like, but I think it would be extremely misleading to refer to any of my needs as "spiritual."
I may start worshipping George Carlin (which he'd hate, I'm sure): "Spirituality: the last refuge of a failed human. Just another way of distracting yourself from who you really are."

That’s certainly true, although what you’re asking for is a bit of a stretch. It comes down to Christianity without Christ, and I doubt that even the most liberal Christian is willing to go that far.

Have you ever read the Jefferson Bible?

See, Thomas Jefferson decided to go through the Bible and cut out all the stuff he viewed as junk. This turned out to be pretty much all the superstitious material in the book. Virgin birth? Gone. Jesus rising from the dead? Gone.

So what did he keep? The philosophy, mostly. He took away Jesus' magic powers, and left him as a teacher and a philosopher who gave some pretty good liberal advice. The fundamental lessons and values survive surprisingly well without any of the fairytale details.

Have you ever read the Jefferson Bible?

See, Thomas Jefferson decided to go through the Bible and cut out all the stuff he viewed as junk. This turned out to be pretty much all the superstitious material in the book. Virgin birth? Gone. Jesus rising from the dead? Gone.

So what did he keep? The philosophy, mostly. He took away Jesus' magic powers, and left him as a teacher and a philosopher who gave some pretty good liberal advice. The fundamental lessons and values survive surprisingly well without any of the fairytale details.
I've never seen a copy but I have heard about it. It's true, if you remove the magic and imaginary friends and under-the-bed monsters, there are some good lessons there.

I've never seen a copy but I have heard about it. It's true, if you remove the magic and imaginary friends and under-the-bed monsters, there are some good lessons there.

Unfortunately they are far from complete, nor entirely consistent.

Unfortunately they are far from complete, nor entirely consistent.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I don't require completeness from any one source and I'll decide on their being consistent or relevant to me.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I don't require completeness from any one source and I'll decide on their being consistent or relevant to me.
Indeed.

When I wrote a report about Shakespeare for an English class, my teacher took off points because I used only one source for all my information. When I submitted my senior thesis, I lost marks because I referenced only three different labs in my background statement. When I wrote the first draft for my grant proposal, my mentor informed me that having only 25 sources was hardly scratching the surface.

I'm rather scared of any person who claims to have received all of their morality from any one single book. That kind of shoddy work isn't even going to fly in a 9th grade English paper, so why should it be acceptable for one's entire moral code?

Indeed.

When I wrote a report about Shakespeare for an English class, my teacher took off points because I used only one source for all my information. When I submitted my senior thesis, I lost marks because I referenced only three different labs in my background statement. When I wrote the first draft for my grant proposal, my mentor informed me that having only 25 sources was hardly scratching the surface.

I'm rather scared of any person who claims to have received all of their morality from any one single book. That kind of shoddy work isn't even going to fly in a 9th grade English paper, so why should it be acceptable for one's entire moral code?

I'm wary of MBAs who are young and have never had experience in business. And wary of MBA programs that give degrees to young people who never had any experience in business.

You may assume that I'm wary of academics who have never seen the practical application of their field.

I'm wary of MBAs who are young and have never had experience in business. And wary of MBA programs that give degrees to young people who never had any experience in business.

You may assume that I'm wary of academics who have never seen the practical application of their field.
I'm assuming you are bringing this up as a further parallel with morality? Because if so, I agree...I tend to be wary of people who profess broad and superlative beliefs without ever having experience with the realities that go along with them.

(Example: young, white, sheltered suburban teenagers who profess strong belief in either extreme communism or extreme capitalism. This is not to say that such young people cannot have great ideas or be on the right track, I just tend to think they should try supporting themselves financially for at least a few weeks before they consider their minds made up.)

I'm wary of MBAs who are young and have never had experience in business. And wary of MBA programs that give degrees to young people who never had any experience in business.

You may assume that I'm wary of academics who have never seen the practical application of their field.
I tend to be wary of MBAs in general. Especially young ones who are given positions in "Management" and then try to get me to believe they're my friend.

But that's not what the thread's about. I get the impression, Bottle, that as time goes by, one never achieves the correct number of references, regardless of experience or diligence. Catch-22, I suppose, and I can't say I'm surprised.

But that's not what the thread's about. I get the impression, Bottle, that as time goes by, one never achieves the correct number of references, regardless of experience or diligence. Catch-22, I suppose, and I can't say I'm surprised.
I think it's mostly that expectations are always rising. Some people may find that discouraging, but I like it...it means I've always got room to grow. It keeps me humble, too, by reminding me that I'm not The Expert on anything.

When it comes to morality, I think humility is pretty goddam important. Not in the ass-kissing, "We're not worthy" kind of way, but in the sense that you understand the limitations of your own judgment. You understand that your moral code is a work in progress rather than some objective reality in which every good person must participate.

When it comes to morality, I think humility is pretty goddam important. Not in the ass-kissing, "We're not worthy" kind of way, but in the sense that you understand the limitations of your own judgment. You understand that your moral code is a work in progress rather than some objective reality in which every good person must participate.
That’s excellently put. It’s the “everyone must think the same” part of religions that put me off. (That and the fact that I don’t see evidence for divinity in the universe. I see a great many things I don’t understand but I feel no need to attribute them to a higher power.)

And one’s moral code ought to be a work in progress. As we grow older and, one hopes, mature, our outlook on what’s right and what’s wrong should change. As Shakespeare said, “A man loves the meat in his youth that he cannot endure in his age.” It’s a matter of being open and aware.

If we’ve hijacked this thread for the moment, sorry. Please do continue with questions about Christianity. I find them endlessly fascinating.

What does Christianity offer (this is a thread on Christianity)? “You’re a sinner, always have been, always will be, your ancestors were, all the way back to Adam and Eve, but if you acknowledge your deplorable nature and surrender your will to me, I forgive you. You’ll have to toe the line, of course, and being such a terrible sinner, we both know you’ll be in constant need of confession and forgiveness, and if you screw up, well, you’ll just have to beg for forgiveness over and over. If you don’t, I have some interesting punishments lined up.”

Anyway, here endeth the rant.

Who taught you about Christianity that led you to that assessment?
'constant need of confession and forgiveness' leads me to believe that it is perhaps Roman Catholic?
A christian life as you describe is certainly not worth it.

As somebody who is female, non-heterosexual, and atheist, can I just say:

This bullshit is getting really old. Why the fuck am I ALWAYS part of the demographic that is getting shit on the most? The only way I could be worse off is if I were a female non-heterosexual atheist Arab, for crying out loud.

Christians seem to really really like being oppressed and put-upon. Hell, they work themselves into a frenzy when our federal government doesn't spend enough money teaching kids about Jesus, so they obviously are just looking for ways to be oppressed. What if we actually were to oppress them? They'd be happy, we'd have a target who ISN'T ME...everybody wins!


thankyou but this isnt the debate oppression of athiests forum its the ask the Christian a question thread....TY

Yeah I got one,(if you are still around) So God is a loving God, why then would God create sooo many differant types of people with sooo many differant types of mind and soooo many differant modes and methods of thought, yet create only one way to reach God?



that my friend, is an question to ask God himself, I honestly have no idea why he would. Thats his idea.

Hmmm... if I remember the story correctly, he did, but then spared him, and then much later down the line, Abraham's God actually ended up sacrificing his own son.

If I created something out of clay and it stood up and started talking back to me, I don't know about you, but that's a piece of clay I would crush! I think God is quite patient with us.

its cause he loves us unconditionally, you can kill the pope, bomb every church in the world and curse his name thousands of times at the top of your lungs and he will still love you.

I guess maybe it depends on where you live. In my lifetime, we've never had a US president suggest that black people should not be considered citizens of the United States; we have had a president state that atheists should not be considered citizens. In my lifetime, we've never had our government pass laws that remove civil rights on the basis of race; we have government on both federal and state levels voting to do so on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, and religious belief. In my lifetime, we've never had federal funding being spent to teach children that it's immoral to be black, but we have federal money being used to teach them that morality requires God-belief.

I don't say any of this because I'm trying to trivialize racism. I know it still exists, and it is still a huge fucking problem. The difference is that mainstream society recognizes racism for the bigotry that it is, and it is no longer possible to be openly racist in mainstream society. We've got recent examples in the news of what happens to politicians or public figures who make overtly racist comments...it ain't pretty.

At the same time, it is completely acceptable to say sexist, homophobic, or anti-atheist things. Indeed, being anti-atheist is pretty much a requirement for somebody who wants a political career!

Mostly this is just me being self-pitying, because I happen to have been born in a time and place where essentially every demographic I fit into is the target of institutionalized mainstream discrimination. It gets really boring and tiring after a while. :P



::plays the worlds smallest violin:: oh yeah, ever been spit on because of your religious beliefs, ever have an entire parade of protersters marching against your beliefs? Excuse me when i say you got it all backwards mate. People arent teaching kids about God, theyre spending all their money keeping God out of Schools. Or have you not followed news lately. ACLU has effectively removed everything relating to God from schools.

I have been spit on at a SYATP rally. A rally where christians meet on a certain day in front of their school and pray for the students the teachers and everyone else. Funny how i was spit on by the people i was praying for.

thankyou but this isnt the debate oppression of athiests forum its the ask the Christian a question thread....TY

...What?

Funny how i was spit on by the people i was praying for.
Well, no-one likes a smartass.

I've got a question. When Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the father except through me." most christians see it as saying only accepting Jesus brings you to god. Couldn't it also mean that God couldn't forgive humans without experiencing life as a human? Remember the old testament god was an asshole. Mix the incense wrong? I'll kill ya. Have but sex? I'll kill yer whole city. Piss me off enough and I'll kill everyone except the Noah family. Maybe Jesus didn't die for humans, but he died for God to understand humans.

Couldn't it be interpreted differently? Couldn't one draw the conclusion that God doesn't care if your christian, he understands what it's like to be a human now and he'll accept you if you struggle to be decent?

so you get into heaven just because you believe in God and your a good person. This in the SBC world is what we call a "works answer" There is nothing you can do in this life that can redeem yourself. But christ redeemed himself. God knows what its like to be human. He created you. He created all the tendencies and drives and behaviors that we have.

Here read this post this is what Christ did for us

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11586926&postcount=158

The better question, I think, would be "Why would God create a way at all?" I'm kind of glad there is one, but it kind of blows me away still.


Because his whole purpose in creating us was to have companions. Everlasting God. Can get quite lonely.

Yea, look, I agree with you about things like gay marriage. That's a huge issue obviously.

Really though, living where I do, NYC, being an atheist really isn't all that big of a deal. I suppose that makes me ignore, or at least not pay attention to, some of the stuff you are talking about. It just never comes up. There is still a huge amount of structural racism though, despite official condemnation. At the end of the day, from my experiences, as long as you are white you've pretty much missed out on 90% of the crap that the US dishes out. Official policies notwithstanding.

Also, some places in this county are just ignorant and retarded - I'm looking at you south of the mason dixon line. I once made the huge mistake of going on a beach vacation with a non-white girlfriend down south. Those people are evil and something should be done about them.


really thanks for now offending me, i happen to live in North Carolina, and where i live, Mixed relationships isnt a big deal. Some parents have an issue, but most of society doesnt.

I think part of the problem is that so much of Christianity is wrapped up in martyrdom. Pretty much every major player in the Bible has to get martyred in one way or another...even GOD managed to get martyred, by virtue of the whole Trinity thing (since God is the Son as well as Father and Ghost and all that). So what do you do, then, when you are a follower of Holy Martyrdom, yet your faction holds all the power in your society? You get damn confused, I should think.


only one martyr counts, and thats Jesus, cause his death redeemed the world for all that believes in him. The rest were just willing to die for what they believed in, and they did.

really thanks for now offending me, i happen to live in North Carolina, and where i live, Mixed relationships isnt a big deal. Some parents have an issue, but most of society doesnt.
Hopefully not in a dirt spot like Shelby.

That's how I understand it. I'd love to hear a Christian clergyman contradict me, I would.


ill do it right now.

John 3:14-16

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For god so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Hopefully not in a dirt spot like Shelby.

Shelby,......?

Shelby,......?
Shelby, North Carolina.

I asked this question, among others, in a previous thread, directed at the resident Christian - he barely acknowledged my existence and dodged every question thrown at him.

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus turn water to wine? Surely there were more important things to do, such as saving the thousands of those around him from dying, or creating a way to keep sand out of your food (happened a lot in that area, couldn't eat a sandwich without taking the beach with you). Water to wine is the most unhelpful thing I can think of. Getting people drunk. Honestly. What kind of god has that on his "to-do" list?

That’s certainly true, although what you’re asking for is a bit of a stretch. It comes down to Christianity without Christ, and I doubt that even the most liberal Christian is willing to go that far.

I enjoy reasonable discussions of religion but it all comes down to talking about who has the best imaginary friend. And what bothers me about religions – pretty much all of them – is that they are based on the proposition that human beings are incapable of goodness without divine encouragement and intervention. I find that insulting, when I’m grouchy, and merely sad when I’m in a better mood. It’s right up there with the “aliens built the pyramids” ideas, the ones that say that just about every notable achievement of humanity on Earth was either done by visitors from another world or at least designed by them. Humans were just the construction workers, at best.

What does Christianity offer (this is a thread on Christianity)? “You’re a sinner, always have been, always will be, your ancestors were, all the way back to Adam and Eve, but if you acknowledge your deplorable nature and surrender your will to me, I forgive you. You’ll have to toe the line, of course, and being such a terrible sinner, we both know you’ll be in constant need of confession and forgiveness, and if you screw up, well, you’ll just have to beg for forgiveness over and over. If you don’t, I have some interesting punishments lined up.”

Anyway, here endeth the rant.



actually heres what Christianity has to offer.

"Look everybody sins, Its human nature. Its how i created you. (do you lie? well theres a sin.) and nothing you can do can make up for it. but heres the best part, the price for sin has already been paid, you just have to accept my son as your savior. try to live by My law. I know you'll fall, no body is perfect, but ask and I will forgive, and help you back on your feet. Your life wont always be perfect, you will have pain and tribulation, but trust in me and Ill see you through it."

ill do it right now.

John 3:14-16

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For god so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

14/15: Those who believe in him don't have eternal life - life ends. Existence, now that's another discussion.

16: He so loved the world that he took inefficient courses of action and may or may not have given vague directions on how to live, but we'll never know for sure because he never gave us a way to prove it. Dumb love is no more useful than smart hatred.

actually heres what Christianity has to offer.

"Look everybody sins, Its human nature. Its how i created you. (do you lie? well theres a sin.) and nothing you can do can make up for it. but heres the best part, the price for sin has already been paid, you just have to accept my son as your savior. try to live by My law. I know you'll fall, no body is perfect, but ask and I will forgive, and help you back on your feet. Your life wont always be perfect, you will have pain and tribulation, but trust in me and Ill see you through it."

That's a very simple way of looking at it. It kind of ignores all the specifics, such as the blasphemy of creating the bible, the church being complete hipocrites, and the fact that god must've known that doing what he did (sending "his son" down to us) would have set upon a chain of events which led to much persecution and death and intolerance and bigotry. You'd think, y'know, being all knowing and all seeing, he could've come up with a better plan of action. One that wouldn't have been so vague and sketchy, one that wouldn't have given people so much legroom to do whatever they want "in his name".

considering that whats wrong with this world is god's fuckup, i dont see why your interpretation shouldnt be correct.

how long did adam and eve last in the garden of eden before they got booted out? how many generations between adam and noah before the world was so bad that god needed to start all over again by wiping out almost all life on earth?

it was god's mistake and god fixed it by becoming man, preaching the truth, and dying in atonement for his own mistakes.

if there is no god but GOD, whenever we worship ANY "god" we worship the one god. jesus may have fixed what was wrong in the whole "how to get to the blessed afterlife" thing but i dont see why going through him requires an embrace of modern christianity (which would have been unrecognizable by jesus anyway). its ludicrous to think that god only saved a handful of jews and greeks way back in the 1st century ad and meant to send all others to firey torment as punishment for incorrect worship rites.




whoa whoa whoa, seems to me like yall got the wrong impression of Hell.


Hell was never created for humans. Hell was a place created for Lucifer and his Angels who tried to overthrow God. But when God created hell he put into the works that whoever rebels against him goes there. God doesnt like sending any of us to hell. He loves us. It breaks his heart to see us go to Hell. Thats why he sent his son to die for us so we wouldnt have to. Ive already explained why that interpretation is already incorrect. God knows what it means to be human, he Everything about us. He created all our drives and tendencies. He sees our lives THROUGH OUR OWN EYES!

whoa whoa whoa, seems to me like yall got the wrong impression of Hell.


Hell was never created for humans. Hell was a place created for Lucifer and his Angels who tried to overthrow God. But when God created hell he put into the works that whoever rebels against him goes there. God doesnt like sending any of us to hell. He loves us. It breaks his heart to see us go to Hell. Thats why he sent his son to die for us so we wouldnt have to. Ive already explained why that interpretation is already incorrect. God knows what it means to be human, he Everything about us. He created all our drives and tendencies. He sees our lives THROUGH OUR OWN EYES!

If he truly knew what it was to live our lives, he wouldn't punish us for all eternity for not worshipping in the way he supposedly wants. There are thousands of ways to worship 'god' or 'gods', and there's no proof one way or the other about any one method. Sending someone to hell for all eternity for not being sure is a damned ignorant thing to do.

That's a very simple way of looking at it. It kind of ignores all the specifics, such as the blasphemy of creating the bible, the church being complete hipocrites, and the fact that god must've known that doing what he did (sending "his son" down to us) would have set upon a chain of events which led to much persecution and death and intolerance and bigotry. You'd think, y'know, being all knowing and all seeing, he could've come up with a better plan of action. One that wouldn't have been so vague and sketchy, one that wouldn't have given people so much legroom to do whatever they want "in his name".


dont blame the religion for few peoples selfish actions. God does what he does. I dont understand why he does what he does, neither does anyone. Thats why hes God and were the Humans.

You say simple way. Christianity is simple. Its not complicated. It has one absolute truth. Trust in Christ and your sins our forgiven. THATS IT! theres nothing more to it. The whole repenting your sins comes from your trust and love of Christ. Cause when we sin it hurts Christ, and if you truely follow Christ you dont want to sin anymore.

dont blame the religion for few peoples selfish actions. God does what he does. I dont understand why he does what he does, neither does anyone. Thats why hes God and were the Humans.

You say simple way. Christianity is simple. Its not complicated. It has one absolute truth. Trust in Christ and your sins our forgiven. THATS IT! theres nothing more to it. The whole repenting your sins comes from your trust and love of Christ. Cause when we sin it hurts Christ, and if you truely follow Christ you dont want to sin anymore.

Well that's very simple, yes. But then it comes down to "what is a sin", and that's where people fuck up. Just because you say something is a sin doesn't mean it's someone else's version of a sin. God knew this would happen, he knew there would be confusion and disorder, and he did nothing to keep it from happening.

14/15: Those who believe in him don't have eternal life - life ends. Existence, now that's another discussion.

16: He so loved the world that he took inefficient courses of action and may or may not have given vague directions on how to live, but we'll never know for sure because he never gave us a way to prove it. Dumb love is no more useful than smart hatred.


life ends for those who dont believe in Christ in what is known as the seccond death. You die in this world and go to hell. Then when this world is over God passes judgment on all souls and those who dont make the cut are ended.


Innefficient? really, God didnt give us any vauge instructions, please, read the gospel before you start claiming to be an expert on what God Should have done. Hes GOD hes way smarter than you are.

Well that's very simple, yes. But then it comes down to "what is a sin", and that's where people fuck up. Just because you say something is a sin doesn't mean it's someone else's version of a sin. God knew this would happen, he knew there would be confusion and disorder, and he did nothing to keep it from happening.


God laid his word down. People turned from God made up their own laws and wallaw confusion and disorder. Thats not Gods fault, thats our own. What other people say dont matter. They have no right to Judge you because they are human just like you. God created you and is the ultimate authority. He judges you, so its only his word that matters.

actually heres what Christianity has to offer.

"Look everybody sins, Its human nature.
...which god created.

So we're punished for being the way god created us.

Yeah. That makes a shitload of sense.

life ends for those who dont believe in Christ in what is known as the seccond death. You die in this world and go to hell. Then when this world is over God passes judgment on all souls and those who dont make the cut are ended.


Innefficient? really, God didnt give us any vauge instructions, please, read the gospel before you start claiming to be an expert on what God Should have done. Hes GOD hes way smarter than you are.

He is? Really? Then why couldn't god have prevented all of the suffering we've endured? I could've prevented it, and I'm not even omnipotent. Give people better urges. Right now, people have the urge to be jealous, lustful, hateful, murderous, and apathetic. It comes easiest to us, easier than anything else does. Those are our base instincts, and he gave them to us, and then told us not to act on them based on something we weren't even sure was from him.

How would I do better? I would've sent an undeniable message for the ages, of one specific order that I approve of, if I so choose to approve of just one. God could've sorted so much out if he'd do something like, I dunno, have everyone have the same dream where he tells them of peace and love and kindness. But no, he never speaks to us directly, because that would work too well.

Well that's very simple, yes. But then it comes down to "what is a sin", and that's where people fuck up. Just because you say something is a sin doesn't mean it's someone else's version of a sin. God knew this would happen, he knew there would be confusion and disorder, and he did nothing to keep it from happening.

and on a side note God did plan for this, he said "obey the laws of the government living over you, UNLESS they conflict with the Laws of God."

and on a side note God did plan for this, he said "obey the laws of the government living over you, UNLESS they conflict with the Laws of God."

So why not just command everyone to follow the laws of god as the laws of government? It would be so much easier and simpler. It would be better, clearer, more effective.

and on a side note God did plan for this, he said "obey the laws of the government living over you, UNLESS they conflict with the Laws of God."

So why not just command everyone to follow the laws of god as the laws of government? It would be so much easier and simpler. It would be better, clearer, more effective.

He is? Really? Then why couldn't god have prevented all of the suffering we've endured? I could've prevented it, and I'm not even omnipotent. Give people better urges. Right now, people have the urge to be jealous, lustful, hateful, murderous, and apathetic. It comes easiest to us, easier than anything else does. Those are our base instincts, and he gave them to us, and then told us not to act on them based on something we weren't even sure was from him.

How would I do better? I would've sent an undeniable message for the ages, of one specific order that I approve of, if I so choose to approve of just one. God could've sorted so much out if he'd do something like, I dunno, have everyone have the same dream where he tells them of peace and love and kindness. But no, he never speaks to us directly, because that would work too well.
Yeah, that's what really seems stupid to me.

I'll bet you I could do away with AT LEAST 2/3rds of the violence humans do to one another, without fucking up free will in the slightest, if you gave me god-like powers for 30 seconds. And I'm not that bright. I'm not omnicient. I haven't had infinite time to plan out my Creation. Hell, I don't even LIKE humanity all that much, and I could still make a better job of it than their God has!

life ends for those who dont believe in Christ in what is known as the seccond death. You die in this world and go to hell. Then when this world is over God passes judgment on all souls and those who dont make the cut are ended. .
so, are we given a choice after we die as you said earlier? or do we go straight to hell or do we go into a waiting room for final judgement? (both you seem to be saying here)

and where is your scriptural backing for all of this?

and what do you mean by "believe in"

and when does our life end, and who goes to hell, and why do they go to hell and when do they go to hell?

that my friend, is an question to ask God himself, I honestly have no idea why he would. Thats his idea.


Yeah I have already, and God said that God did not create only one way to God. God said 'I mean that would be stupid and not the act of a loving God, innit!''(God is up on the venacular of the youth) God said that in the end all of Gods children come to God, even though it may take them many lifetimes.

God said those who talk of my punishment are wrong, and are leading you wrongly. God told me that he is okay with this though, because even thoese people will come to God eventualy.

God told me that thoese who kill or misinform in Gods name though will probably have to wait a very long time, but God also said 'Those who take even one footstep towards God, then God will take a 1000 footsteps towards them'

I listened to this last remark and I replied "Ohhhhhh my lord that, is the act of a truley loving God"

God kissed me then, and mummbled somthing about ohh don't you'll make my go all red! God really is nice you know, and not mean at all.:D

::plays the worlds smallest violin:: oh yeah, ever been spit on because of your religious beliefs, ever have an entire parade of protersters marching against your beliefs?

Um, yes. I have. Of COURSE. I'm a non-heterosexual atheist female. I've been spit on plenty of times. Honestly, is that really a surprise to anybody?

Furthermore, the President of the United States of America regularly meets with the leaders of several organizations which routinely suggest that people like me should be completely excluded from our nation, solely on the basis of religious belief. The president's father (also a former president) flat-out stated that people like me should not be considered citizens of the United States. I'd say that qualifies as "spitting" on me.


Excuse me when i say you got it all backwards mate. People arent teaching kids about God, theyre spending all their money keeping God out of Schools.

You just made my point for me. American public schools are not a place for anybody's God, and never have been. The very fact that money must be spent to keep God out of these schools is evidence of the efforts (primarily by Christians) to force their God into places where He does not belong.

No money should have to be spent to keep God out of public schools, because nobody should be trying to put him there. God is for your churches, for your home, for your own private life. The fact that somebody has to fight to stop you from using public money to fund your religion pretty much speaks for itself.


Or have you not followed news lately. ACLU has effectively removed everything relating to God from schools.

Ooooooh, it's that time again, kids! It's time to...

CHECK YOUR FACTS, WITH BOTTLE!

MYTH: The ACLU has effectively removed everything relating to God from schools.

FACT: The ACLU has frequently defended the right of religious expression in schools.

In the summer of 2002, the ACLU supported the rights of a group of Iowa students who wanted to distribute Christian literature at school.

In 2003, the ACLU of Massachusetts defended students who were punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.

In 2004, the ACLU of Nevada defended a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school.

Also in 2004, the ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian and got the student's (public) high school to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.

In June of this year, the ACLU defended a second-grader who wanted to sing a religious song in school.

The ACLU is currently lobbying against S. 3696, the "Public Expression of Religion Act of 2005" (PERA), which would restrict freedom of religious expression by barring the recovery of attorneys' fees to those who win lawsuits asserting their fundamental constitutional and civil rights in cases brought under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.


I have been spit on at a SYATP rally. A rally where christians meet on a certain day in front of their school and pray for the students the teachers and everyone else. Funny how i was spit on by the people i was praying for.
Talk about tiny violins.

Christians control every branch of the US government. Christians dominate every media outlet and every major industry. Every US President in history has been Christian. So has every Vice President.

But hey, some people spit at you this one time. Clearly, that puts Christian oppression on par with what minorities, women, gays, and atheists face in the United States.

Frankly, if you aren't satisfied with the amount of power and status Christianity currently enjoys in the US, then I submit you probably will never be happy anyhow.

I asked this question, among others, in a previous thread, directed at the resident Christian - he barely acknowledged my existence and dodged every question thrown at him.

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus turn water to wine? Surely there were more important things to do, such as saving the thousands of those around him from dying, or creating a way to keep sand out of your food (happened a lot in that area, couldn't eat a sandwich without taking the beach with you). Water to wine is the most unhelpful thing I can think of. Getting people drunk. Honestly. What kind of god has that on his "to-do" list?


One that likes to see people enjoy themselves?

yes but they are wrong in doing so. I understand why Homosexuality is a sin, i dont neccisarily agree with it. But i go with it cause its in the bible.

Then maybe you can explain it.

and what rules do we not need at all.

Prety much everything aside from don't kill and don't steal.

Sigh i understand now why the Mods dont like these types of threads. what was meant to be a simple ask question forum, turned into a huge full fledged debate.

Is there something wrong with debate? If your faith can not stand a little debate then you have no faith.

actually heres what Christianity has to offer.

"Look everybody sins, Its human nature. Its how i created you. (do you lie? well theres a sin.) and nothing you can do can make up for it. but heres the best part, the price for sin has already been paid, you just have to accept my son as your savior. try to live by My law. I know you'll fall, no body is perfect, but ask and I will forgive, and help you back on your feet. Your life wont always be perfect, you will have pain and tribulation, but trust in me and Ill see you through it."
But I don't care to buy into the game, thanks. "Its how i created you"? Here is where we part company, Sons of Tarsonis. No supernatural creation, not in my universe, and no, I can't explain everything about how the universe arose and how life arose, I'm not a scientist, and there are still many questions. "A deity did it," however, going to be one of the answers. As for the rest, well, "Look everybody sinis, Its human nature" and "and nothing you can do can make up for it" and "I know you'll fail" and "Your life wont always be perfect, you will have pain and tribulation" just make my point. I believe Humanity is basically good, not basically flawed, and certainly not created flawed so a supernatural being can look good forgiving us when we screw up.

Have a nice day. :)

I asked this question, among others, in a previous thread, directed at the resident Christian - he barely acknowledged my existence and dodged every question thrown at him.

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus turn water to wine? Surely there were more important things to do, such as saving the thousands of those around him from dying, or creating a way to keep sand out of your food (happened a lot in that area, couldn't eat a sandwich without taking the beach with you). Water to wine is the most unhelpful thing I can think of. Getting people drunk. Honestly. What kind of god has that on his "to-do" list?

he did it because his mother asked him to.

honor thy mother and thy father eh?

Oh, and you misunderstood my "I'd love to hear a clergyman correct me" eariler. I was saying that believing in Jesus is the central deal, which is how I take your quote from John, not that it isn't.

he did it because his mother asked him to.

honor thy mother and thy father eh?
Dude, can you imagine being Jesus' little brother or sister, and having to follow that act?

"Mommy, I made you this card with crayons and glue!"
"Yes yes, dear, that's very nice."
"Mommy, you're not even looking!"
"It's a very cute card, darling, but Mommy wants to drink some of the wine that your big brother has miraculously created for her."

whoa whoa whoa, seems to me like yall got the wrong impression of Hell.


Hell was never created for humans. Hell was a place created for Lucifer and his Angels who tried to overthrow God. But when God created hell he put into the works that whoever rebels against him goes there. God doesnt like sending any of us to hell. He loves us. It breaks his heart to see us go to Hell. Thats why he sent his son to die for us so we wouldnt have to. Ive already explained why that interpretation is already incorrect. God knows what it means to be human, he Everything about us. He created all our drives and tendencies. He sees our lives THROUGH OUR OWN EYES!

THATS what you got out of my post? thats IT? i thought "send people to hell" was the only mainstream idea in it.

just as i am in charge of what punishment i hand out to my son (when he was underage) god is in charge of what punishment he gives us. hell is his choice.

If he truly knew what it was to live our lives, he wouldn't punish us for all eternity for not worshipping in the way he supposedly wants. There are thousands of ways to worship 'god' or 'gods', and there's no proof one way or the other about any one method. Sending someone to hell for all eternity for not being sure is a damned ignorant thing to do.
now that was kind of my point

if there is only ONE god, then anytime we worship any god, we are worshipping god. the christian idea is that god is damning the hindu for getting the details wrong no matter how devout and righteous that hindu might be.

I asked this question, among others, in a previous thread, directed at the resident Christian - he barely acknowledged my existence and dodged every question thrown at him.

I'll ask again: Why did Jesus turn water to wine? Surely there were more important things to do, such as saving the thousands of those around him from dying, or creating a way to keep sand out of your food (happened a lot in that area, couldn't eat a sandwich without taking the beach with you). Water to wine is the most unhelpful thing I can think of. Getting people drunk. Honestly. What kind of god has that on his "to-do" list?

Baccus <again can't f-ing spell worth a damn today>

now that was kind of my point

if there is only ONE god, then anytime we worship any god, we are worshipping god. the christian idea is that god is damning the hindu for getting the details wrong no matter how devout and righteous that hindu might be.
There is only one God, you can't worship Him by default, you worship Him with purpose. Nobody can be righteous no matter how many times they pray to the grilled cheese with an image of their "god" on it.

There is only one God, you can't worship Him by default, you worship Him with purpose. Nobody can be righteous no matter how many times they pray to the grilled cheese with an image of their "god" on it.
Just so. There's maybe a little wiggle room in Christianity about how you go about worshipping, but there are also some fairly basic articles of faith, and if you diverge very much from those, why, you're very quickly no longer a Christian. As I understand it. It may be a big tent, but there's only one way in.

Just so. There's maybe a little wiggle room in Christianity about how you go about worshipping, but there are also some fairly basic articles of faith, and if you diverge very much from those, why, you're very quickly no longer a Christian. As I understand it. It may be a big tent, but there's only one way in.
yeah. That's a pretty awesome analogy too "big tent" I am officially stealing that for use with the Bible Study that I am teaching Tuesday. :p It goes very well with the scripture we are covering.

yeah. That's a pretty awesome analogy too "big tent" I am officially stealing that for use with the Bible Study that I am teaching Tuesday. :p It goes very well with the scripture we are covering.
:p

:p
I feel I should expand. There are (I believe) some fundamental truths to Christianity that need to be recognized, after those everything else is just fluff.

My husband grew up in a Church of Christ background, they are strictly no instruments in church, I grew up in a Southern Baptist background, where we had a full orchestra in church. Niether of those are better than the other, it's all fluff when you think about it (but some people will make a huge deal of it)

I have seen fights in church over the most idiotic of things, and all it does it tear at the body of the church, none of it really matters.

We have a huge problem today though, that a lot of the "church" don't even understand the fundamental truths, or if they do they reject a few because "it just doesn't sound right" and those people are the ones that annoy me even more.

There is only one God, you can't worship Him by default, you worship Him with purpose. Nobody can be righteous no matter how many times they pray to the grilled cheese with an image of their "god" on it.
which is, as i said, the christian idea (although not all christians believe that). its sickeningly wrong to think that god would have billions of people who are doomed to damnation through absolutely no fault of their own with no possibility to ever get on the right track. that god fits no definition of christian love that exists. it belongs back in the "god is a jealous god" of the old testament where there are obviously OTHER gods in existence that the jews were told to stay away from.

There is only one God, you can't worship Him by default, you worship Him with purpose. Nobody can be righteous no matter how many times they pray to the grilled cheese with an image of their "god" on it.

Just because your god suffers from solpsisim it doesn't make him the only one.

Just because your god suffer from solpsisim it doesn't make him the only one.
I don't pretend to know the nature of God or number for that fact. I know what I believe, and by beliefs can not be compromised for the purpose of making other's feel "warm and fuzzy"

which is, as i said, the christian idea (although not all christians believe that). its sickeningly wrong to think that god would have billions of people who are doomed to damnation through absolutely no fault of their own with no possibility to ever get on the right track. that god fits no definition of christian love that exists. it belongs back in the "god is a jealous god" of the old testament where there are obviously OTHER gods in existence that the jews were told to stay away from.

Which is exactly why it is the explicit task of a Christian to reach as many people with Christ's Word as he can. Clearly, God has appeared to many in many different forms; with Christ's message, those people can be directed toward the true face of God.

He is? Really? Then why couldn't god have prevented all of the suffering we've endured? I could've prevented it, and I'm not even omnipotent. Give people better urges. Right now, people have the urge to be jealous, lustful, hateful, murderous, and apathetic. It comes easiest to us, easier than anything else does. Those are our base instincts, and he gave them to us, and then told us not to act on them based on something we weren't even sure was from him.

How would I do better? I would've sent an undeniable message for the ages, of one specific order that I approve of, if I so choose to approve of just one. God could've sorted so much out if he'd do something like, I dunno, have everyone have the same dream where he tells them of peace and love and kindness. But no, he never speaks to us directly, because that would work too well.



yes and this thinking is why hes God, and Your not. not to make offense personally you sound like a child who doesnt like the fact that theres something bigger than him in the world.

So why not just command everyone to follow the laws of god as the laws of government? It would be so much easier and simpler. It would be better, clearer, more effective.


does everyone listen to him? no. your a clear example of it.

Here's a question for you: Why does Hitler get to go to heaven, while Ghandi (plus 2/3 of the population of the planet, and every human being who lived before Jesus) rots in hell?

Yeah, that's what really seems stupid to me.

I'll bet you I could do away with AT LEAST 2/3rds of the violence humans do to one another, without fucking up free will in the slightest, if you gave me god-like powers for 30 seconds. And I'm not that bright. I'm not omnicient. I haven't had infinite time to plan out my Creation. Hell, I don't even LIKE humanity all that much, and I could still make a better job of it than their God has!

really, cause anything you would do to change how we think(i mean like forcibly) would be affecting free will. God gave you the right to turn away from him. Which so many people exercise. God never said life would be perfect or easy. Paradise isnt until we get to heaven, Not here on Earth.

Here's a question for you: Why does Hitler get to go to heaven, while Ghandi (plus 2/3 of the population of the planet, and every human being who lived before Jesus) rots in hell?


one who said Hitler went to heaven. and 2, because its not about how good or bad you are. So Ghandi took a hungerstrike and liberated a country, does that make him any better any more deserving than say you or me. Now ill admit, At first i almost turned away from christianity because i didnt like the fact that most of the world is going to heaven. Why are they going to hell? because God gave his word, and they turned away from it. You dont get sent to hell, you choose it.

Here's a question for you: Why does Hitler get to go to heaven, while Ghandi (plus 2/3 of the population of the planet, and every human being who lived before Jesus) rots in hell?
you have knowledge of the afterlife of Hitler and Ghandi? where is your source?

Which is exactly why it is the explicit task of a Christian to reach as many people with Christ's Word as he can. Clearly, God has appeared to many in many different forms; with Christ's message, those people can be directed toward the true face of God.
do you have a non christian incarnation of god in mind when you say that he has appeared in many different forms? do any of those non christians get into heaven?

evangelical efforts notwithstanding, its a rather.....arrogant.. stance to claim that god only loves christians and that he is very willing to damn BILLIONS to eternal torment without giving them the slightest chance to find the correct path out of it.

its fine to say that god wants ME to be a christian in order to be saved. to suggest that a billion-ish hindus are so disgusting to god that he sends them to hell without even bothering to send them their own messiah without the faintest chance of becoming christians, seems to me to commit the sin of thinking you know the mind of god.

Here's a question for you: Why does Hitler get to go to heaven, while Ghandi (plus 2/3 of the population of the planet, and every human being who lived before Jesus) rots in hell?
what makes you think hitler got into heaven? wasnt he catholic? suicides (and mass murderers) go to hell.

evangelical efforts notwithstanding, its a rather.....arrogant.. stance to claim that god only loves christians and that he is very willing to damn BILLIONS to eternal torment without giving them the slightest chance to find the correct path out of it.



except that Christians believe the Bible, and it says both that following Jesus is the only way to heaven and that the path will be shown to everyone.

do you have a non christian incarnation of god in mind when you say that he has appeared in many different forms? do any of those non christians get into heaven?

evangelical efforts notwithstanding, its a rather.....arrogant.. stance to claim that god only loves christians and that he is very willing to damn BILLIONS to eternal torment without giving them the slightest chance to find the correct path out of it.

its fine to say that god wants ME to be a christian in order to be saved. to suggest that a billion-ish hindus are so disgusting to god that he sends them to hell without even bothering to send them their own messiah without the faintest chance of becoming christians, seems to me to commit the sin of thinking you know the mind of god.


well one God has only also appeared appeared, as a burning bush thats the only other thing i can think of that God has appeared as other than christ.

anyone who says God only loves christians is flat out wrong. God Loves all of us. I posted earlier on the true nature of hell. It breaks Gods heart to see us go to hell. Why doesnt he send the Hindus their own messiah? Cause thats not his religion. Judeism Christianity and Islam worship the God of Abraham. No other religion does.

one who said Hitler went to heaven. and 2, because its not about how good or bad you are. So Ghandi took a hungerstrike and liberated a country, does that make him any better any more deserving than say you or me. Now ill admit, At first i almost turned away from christianity because i didnt like the fact that most of the world is going to heaven. Why are they going to hell? because God gave his word, and they turned away from it. You dont get sent to hell, you choose it.
how do you turn away from gods word when you have never heard it? surely you know that people in india by and large dont get preached to. not to mention communist china where foreign missions were banned for more than 50 years.

how did they choose when they had never been given the choice?

really, cause anything you would do to change how we think(i mean like forcibly) would be affecting free will. God gave you the right to turn away from him. Which so many people exercise. God never said life would be perfect or easy. Paradise isnt until we get to heaven, Not here on Earth.
So the fact that, according to you, God created me, and therefore created my brain, which does my reasoning for me, and makes decisions for me, doesn't take away from my free will? Add to that the fact based on the evidence available to me, this brain, which according to you was created by god, has reasoned that it cannot know whether or not god exists. I didn't choose to have a brain that would reason that out, and I didn't choose to make that conclusion the logical one for my brain to decide upon, it just is, and so, my brain, which was created by god, has reasoned that it doesn't know whether or not god exists, and whether or not I want to believe God exists, because my brain (created by God, according to you) has reasoned this, there is no way that I ever will believe that God exists. So as far as believing whether or not God exists is concerned (whether or not it is actually true that he created my brain), I do not have free will. I can't just turn off the part of my brain that reasons that I don't know, nor can I simply ignore all of the evidence and logic pointing to that conclusion, and I can't just flip a switch to decide to start believing in God. So, since I am cursed with this brain of mine, according to you, I am condemned to eternal suffering in Hell.

how do you turn away from gods word when you have never heard it? surely you know that people in india by and large dont get preached to. not to mention communist china where foreign missions were banned for more than 50 years.

how did they choose when they had never been given the choice?

i posted on this earlier in the thread. Those who have never heard the word of Christ, atleast according to non fundamentalist Doctrine cant be blamed for it. Gods also fair.

except that Christians believe the Bible, and it says both that following Jesus is the only way to heaven and that the path will be shown to everyone.
you choose to believe that thats what passages written in koine greek spoken in aramaic 50ish years before mean. you choose to believe that nothing was lost in the translation from aramaic to greek to modern english. that things said 2000 years ago arent being misinterpreted by your preacher.

there are other interpretations that are equally good that you could choose to believe and still be a good christian. interpretations that dont reduce god to a brutal hateful piece of shit who punishes people for things that they didnt do.

you choose to believe that thats what passages written in koine greek spoken in aramaic 50ish years before mean. you choose to believe that nothing was lost in the translation from aramaic to greek to modern english. that things said 2000 years ago arent being misinterpreted by your preacher.

there are other interpretations that are equally good that you could choose to believe and still be a good christian. interpretations that dont reduce god to a brutal hateful piece of shit who punishes people for things that they didnt do.
you assume that I haven't gone back and studied the original languages? they made hubby learn all type of weird stuff in seminary, he made me help him study.

So the fact that, according to you, God created me, and therefore created my brain, which does my reasoning for me, and makes decisions for me, doesn't take away from my free will? Add to that the fact based on the evidence available to me, this brain, which according to you was created by god, has reasoned that it cannot know whether or not god exists. I didn't choose to have a brain that would reason that out, and I didn't choose to make that conclusion the logical one for my brain to decide upon, it just is, and so, my brain, which was created by god, has reasoned that it doesn't know whether or not god exists, and whether or not I want to believe God exists, because my brain (created by God, according to you) has reasoned this, there is no way that I ever will believe that God exists. So as far as believing whether or not God exists is concerned (whether or not it is actually true that he created my brain), I do not have free will. I can't just turn off the part of my brain that reasons that I don't know, nor can I simply ignore all of the evidence and logic pointing to that conclusion, and I can't just flip a switch to decide to start believing in God. So, since I am cursed with this brain of mine, according to you, I am condemned to eternal suffering in Hell.


really, and what is it, in your brain, that God created, tells you, that, there is no god.

i posted on this earlier in the thread. Those who have never heard the word of Christ, atleast according to non fundamentalist Doctrine cant be blamed for it. Gods also fair.
your writing leaves a bit to be desired. i had to guess what you meant in the post i quoted. you should try to be more clear.

what religious tradition do you subscribe to in your effort to explain christianity?

your writing leaves a bit to be desired. i had to guess what you meant in the post i quoted. you should try to be more clear.

what religious tradition do you subscribe to in your effort to explain christianity?


Southen Baptist Church, the ones who apparently everybody thinks of as the Klan

you assume that I haven't gone back and studied the original languages? they made hubby learn all type of weird stuff in seminary, he made me help him study.
you still choose your interpretation.

you still choose your interpretation.
I choose the one I feel most closely matches the original intent, not the one that "sounds acceptable"

true. Ive heard dozens of interpretations, the ones i find just seem to make the most sense to me, out of whats written there, and of what i know of the character of God.

I choose the one I feel most closely matches the original intent, not the one that "sounds acceptable"

"the orginal intent" has been lost under thousands of years of mistranslations.

Southen Baptist Church, the ones who apparently everybody thinks of as the Klan
then what difference does it make what nonfundamentalis denominations believe? southern baptists dont believe that nonbeliever ever get into heaven *references smunkeeville from above*

i can name several christian denominations that would never put god into the position of damning those who have no chance of hearing about christianity.

really, and what is it, in your brain, that God created, tells you, that, there is no god.
Well, if god created everything and knows everything, then it is god which did it, oddly enough.

Otherwise, it's just a priori reasoning.

then what difference does it make what nonfundamentalis denominations believe? southern baptists dont believe that nonbeliever ever get into heaven *references smunkeeville from above*
in the end it makes no difference, we can believe whatever we want, it comes down to what is true

i can name several christian denominations that would never put god into the position of damning those who have no chance of hearing about christianity.
I don't think you understand the fundamental way things work (according to my beliefs) and besides you are assuming that they don't know or will never hear.

I choose the one I feel most closely matches the original intent, not the one that "sounds acceptable"
so you think that god intended to have the vast majority of humanity damned to hell whether through their own fault or because they never had a chance to believe?

that doesnt work for me.

so you think that god intended to have the vast majority of humanity damned to hell whether through their own fault or because they never had a chance to believe?

that doesnt work for me.
I hate to break it to you, but just because you don't like something or don't understand it doens't make it any less true.

how do you turn away from gods word when you have never heard it? surely you know that people in india by and large dont get preached to. not to mention communist china where foreign missions were banned for more than 50 years.

how did they choose when they had never been given the choice?

That's one of the biggest problems I have with the "big three" faiths, that they would seem not to leave any room for this sort of thing. It's the reason that John Hick is one of the best theist philosophers; he uses a lot of reason to understand religion and largely rejects the traditional concepts of Hell.
I remember John Paul II also saying something like "if you live a good life, you'll go to Heaven regardless of your beliefs." I can't find a source, though...

then what difference does it make what nonfundamentalis denominations believe? southern baptists dont believe that nonbeliever ever get into heaven *references smunkeeville from above*

i can name several christian denominations that would never put god into the position of damning those who have no chance of hearing about christianity.


first of all i havent been entirely clear. Theres no, Getting into heaven. Theres no "Cut" of people who get into heaven. Heaven is a gift. A gift that God gave, to people in the form of his son. So that all who believe in him will get eternal life. So when it comes to the heaven, theres no cut, theres just those who accepted the gift, and those who rejected it. But some people werent there for when the gift was announced and no nothing about it. God knows this, seeing as he knows all and sees all. Its like children. Children dont really understand what it means to die, or that stuff. their fears are instinct. Those who cannot simply understand (for instance, mentally handicapped not saying all cant but those who cant), and those who have never heard of the gift, get a free ride so to speak.

Well, if god created everything and knows everything, then it is god which did it, oddly enough.

Otherwise, it's just a priori reasoning.

Not if we have free will, though. In that case, God gave us brains, and we used them to choose not to believe in God. A lot of religious believers argue against free will, which I find confusing, because if we don't have it, how can God blame us for our sins?

Not if we have free will, though. In that case, God gave us brains, and we used them to choose not to believe in God. A lot of religious believers argue against free will, which I find confusing, because if we don't have it, how can God blame us for our sins?


its just the Huge question. How can free will coexist with devine preordination. My mind cannot grasp the concept. I used to question why God gave us freewill at all. I mean, it so simple, we all follow him no sins or anything, and then i realized. Theres a difference between ordering someone to love you, and having people choose to love you.

first of all i havent been entirely clear. Theres no, Getting into heaven. Theres no "Cut" of people who get into heaven. Heaven is a gift. A gift that God gave, to people in the form of his son. So that all who believe in him will get eternal life. So when it comes to the heaven, theres no cut, theres just those who accepted the gift, and those who rejected it. But some people werent there for when the gift was announced and no nothing about it. God knows this, seeing as he knows all and sees all. Its like children. Children dont really understand what it means to die, or that stuff. their fears are instinct. Those who cannot simply understand (for instance, mentally handicapped not saying all cant but those who cant), and those who have never heard of the gift, get a free ride so to speak.
scriptural backing?

I hate to break it to you, but just because you don't like something or don't understand it doens't make it any less true.


that goes hand in hand with my earlier statement, I dont agree with everything the bible says, but i live by it.

I dont agree with everything the bible says, but i live by it.
how is that?

scriptural backing?

Jesus said it when he was talking about letting the children come to him. sorry i havent memorized the bible like you have.

how is that?

Well lets see, Homosexuality for instance. Love is the most Sanctified emotion. If a man loves another man. Is that not real love? so really i dont have a problem with homosexuality, But it says in the bible that its a sin. So it is. God never said i had to agree with everything he said, just said i had to live by it.

really, and what is it, in your brain, that God created, tells you, that, there is no god.
I didn't say that I believe that there is no god, I said that I do not know whether or not there is a god, because there is insufficient evidence to prove to me that there either is or isn't.
Furthermore, my brain tells me that if there truly is a god, that the odds of any one religion on this planet in our tiny corner of this enormous universe that he created being correct are pretty slim, and that in any case it would be ridiculous for me to arbitrarily choose one of them, and that I don't think that any loving, caring, merciful God would condemn a person to eternal suffering for choosing wrong in that completely arbitrary choice, or for happening to be born and raised in a society that ingrains one of the wrong choices into that person's head, or for reasoning with their own mind like I am right now that they cannot know if he exists or which religion is correct if he does. And if God would condemn the billions of people on this planet that, for whatever reason, don't follow the "correct" religion, then he isn't an all-loving, all-caring, merciful God, and is simply an egotistical megalomaniac that happens to be omnipotent, and I think I'd rather burn in hell than serve a being like that.

first of all i havent been entirely clear. Theres no, Getting into heaven. Theres no "Cut" of people who get into heaven. Heaven is a gift. A gift that God gave, to people in the form of his son. So that all who believe in him will get eternal life. So when it comes to the heaven, theres no cut, theres just those who accepted the gift, and those who rejected it. But some people werent there for when the gift was announced and no nothing about it. God knows this, seeing as he knows all and sees all. Its like children. Children dont really understand what it means to die, or that stuff. their fears are instinct. Those who cannot simply understand (for instance, mentally handicapped not saying all cant but those who cant), and those who have never heard of the gift, get a free ride so to speak.

Aren't good works required, though? I'm thinking of what Jesus said as documented here, in Matthew 7:


Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'


I see him as saying that even people who believe in Jesus as son of God won't make it if they're hypocrites, or don't try to atone for their sins and do good works instead. It seems like Jesus himself set out some pretty difficult requirements for making it to paradise apart from "believe in me." Or is all of that a part of believing in Jesus?

Aren't good works required, though? I'm thinking of what Jesus said as documented here, in Matthew 7:



I see him as saying that even people who believe in Jesus as son of God won't make it if they're hypocrites, or don't try to atone for their sins and do good works instead. It seems like Jesus himself set out some pretty difficult requirements for making it to paradise apart from "believe in me."


no read it closely, hes saying that the people who did the Good works wont get into heaven. Cause they cast out demons in his name, did miracles, thats good works, and they didnt get into heaven. Its the actual faith that is required, Good works comes about as part of your faith.

the will of the father was that for us to believe in his son. For the will of God was to have us all redeemed by sacrificing a perfect offering, his own son.

Jesus said it when he was talking about letting the children come to him. sorry i havent memorized the bible like you have.
I don't think you have even read it.

first of all i havent been entirely clear. Theres no, Getting into heaven. Theres no "Cut" of people who get into heaven. Heaven is a gift. A gift that God gave, to people in the form of his son. So that all who believe in him will get eternal life. So when it comes to the heaven, theres no cut, theres just those who accepted the gift, and those who rejected it. But some people werent there for when the gift was announced and no nothing about it. God knows this, seeing as he knows all and sees all. Its like children. Children dont really understand what it means to die, or that stuff. their fears are instinct. Those who cannot simply understand (for instance, mentally handicapped not saying all cant but those who cant), and those who have never heard of the gift, get a free ride so to speak.
if the gift is eternal life, what is the point of eternal life in the torments of hell?

jehovas witnesses believe that on the last day the righteous are ressurected and receive eternal life (on a perfected earth i think) and the nonrighteous remain dead. there is no eternal torment. you either get the prize or you dont.

no read it closely, hes saying that the people who did the Good works wont get into heaven. Cause they cast out demons in his name, did miracles, thats good works, and they didnt get into heaven. Its the actual faith that is required, Good works comes about as part of your faith.

the will of the father was that for us to believe in his son. For the will of God was to have us all redeemed by sacrificing a perfect offering, his own son.

You see, that's what I see "only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" as meaning - I think "the will" is for people to be good. They might do some mighty deeds in the name of Christ, but if they do more evil than good, or if they do good things for the wrong reasons (to get praise, etc.) it won't work out.

"The will of my Father" could also mean to believe in Jesus as an incarnation of God, but I can't see that meaning as working in the larger context of the sermon.

Not if we have free will, though.
But you can't have free will with an omniscient being that created everything. Not possible.


In that case, God gave us brains, and we used them to choose not to believe in God. A lot of religious believers argue against free will, which I find confusing, because if we don't have it, how can God blame us for our sins?
The same way people used to blame rape victims.

in the end it makes no difference, we can believe whatever we want, it comes down to what is true


I don't think you understand the fundamental way things work (according to my beliefs) and besides you are assuming that they don't know or will never hear.
now youre being facile.

the vast majority of hindus will never hear any true thing about christianity. the vast majority of moslems will never hear any true thing about christianity
the vast majority of chinese communists will never hear any true thing about christianity
most of them will never hear about christianity at all.

if the gift is eternal life, what is the point of eternal life in the torments of hell?

jehovas witnesses believe that on the last day the righteous are ressurected and receive eternal life (on a perfected earth i think) and the nonrighteous remain dead. there is no eternal torment. you either get the prize or you dont.
the whole fire and brimestone thing is a tough one, I don't seem to find any evidence of it.......I mean there is mention in Revelation, but there is mention of a lot of weird stuff there, most of it I find to be metaphor.

There is the parable of the beggar and the rich man, but it's again metaphor.

Hell to me is eternal seperation from God, any other fluff added is just fluff, eternally being without His presence would be torment enough.

It's like my pastor used to say "this world is the closest sinners get to heaven, and the closest believers get to hell."

But you can't have free will with an omniscient being that created everything. Not possible.


Yeah, it seems like a stretch. But read up on John Hick and a few other theistic writers; they address that problem pretty well. (Just to show that I'm not closed-minded, I also think Bertrand Russell makes good arguments. So there!)


The same way people used to blame rape victims.


If God does exist, he would have to be totally just. It comes with the package - all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good.

I hate to break it to you, but just because you don't like something or don't understand it doens't make it any less true.
let me say more clearly that i find it to be logically inconsistent with the god of love preached by jesus in the gospels.

i dont require that god be totally logically consistent (limitations of the human mind and all) but in this case i find it impossible to believe that the ONE god of the universe loves only christians and is happy to have billions of his children suffer eternal torment through no fault of their own.

now youre being facile.

the vast majority of hindus will never hear any true thing about christianity. the vast majority of moslems will never hear any true thing about christianity
the vast majority of chinese communists will never hear any true thing about christianity
most of them will never hear about christianity at all.
I most certianly am not. You assume that to "hear about Christianity" there has to be a missionary that comes and smacks you over the head with the good book until you submit.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

let me say more clearly that i find it to be logically inconsistent with the god of love preached by jesus in the gospels.

i dont require that god be totally logically consistent (limitations of the human mind and all) but in this case i find it impossible to believe that the ONE god of the universe loves only christians and is happy to have billions of his children suffer eternal torment through no fault of their own.
God loves everyone.

I didn't say that I believe that there is no god, I said that I do not know whether or not there is a god, because there is insufficient evidence to prove to me that there either is or isn't.

here i use the wind theory. We cant see wind? so how do we know its there, we see the effects of it. Now how do we know God exists, the effects. Im not talking about people doing things and saying their Gods will when in truth far from it. I mean like, a man i knew, who was a drug dealer, converted to christianity, and on that same night, Flushed all his drugs down the toilet and told his suppliers that he would find away to pay them back. And on top of that, the suppliers just said.....ok.

Furthermore, my brain tells me that if there truly is a god, that the odds of any one religion on this planet in our tiny corner of this enormous universe that he created being correct are pretty slim,

really, cause you know he told us which religion to follow, just people dont really wanna listen.

and that in any case it would be ridiculous for me to arbitrarily choose one of them, and that I don't think that any loving, caring, merciful God would condemn a person to eternal suffering for choosing wrong in that completely arbitrary choice, again he gave us the answers and people are turning away from it. Theyre telling God, no i can find my own way, which, sadly is not true. or for happening to be born and raised in a society that ingrains one of the wrong choices into that person's head,
when your brainwashed into believing something, though i cant say for sure, im pretty sure God would understand that your unable to follow his word.

or for reasoning with their own mind like I am right now that they cannot know if he exists or which religion is correct if he does.

thats what faith is mate, the belief that hes there and trust that hes got your best intrests at heart, through all the good and bad, and with out a shred of proof that he exists. but theres also no proof that he doesnt exist.


And if God would condemn the billions of people on this planet that, for whatever reason, don't follow the "correct" religion, then he isn't an all-loving, all-caring, merciful God, and is simply an egotistical megalomaniac that happens to be omnipotent, and I think I'd rather burn in hell than serve a being like that.

the correct religion is the one he gave us. The other trace their origins back to ordinary people. Islam - Muhammad, claims he heard voices. not to discredit the faith, but that kind of hurts your cause. Buddism- Buddists, Hindu, back to an Indian wisemen that i cant remember the name of.

Now we take Judeism. Goes back to the days when God spoke to you in stereo. mainly focuses on Moses, who (with Gods help) led the Jews mirraculously out of Egypt.

and Christianity, basically Judeism part II. Centers around Crhrist, a guy who did many mirracles, died for YOU,and then, Rose from the dead.