NationStates Jolt Archive

Parents, he says, should use other forms of discipline.
Any suggestions?

And what's with all these stories of anti-social behaviour? I was pretty anti-social as a kid, but I'm pretty anti-social now. People annoy me. I don't think being anti-social is necessarily a bad thing.

other than the one that I told Bottle was probably not unbiased? no, I don't think so, I posted links to actual studies.

And so have I. I also included the fact that the links you posted recognized bias in the studies you posted.

And yet you continue. Can you make any arguements w/o insults?

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.

"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."

Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."


So, they replied to Gershoff, only saying she didnt examine normative corporal punishment, but NOT saying or proving that normative corporal punishment is effective/unharmful....Btw Anyone replied to Straus, Grogan-Kaylor?
Btw, what's your education level, Kecibukia?

Only bad parents who fail to disciplinize via civilized means (room lockdown, tv, computer cut, being grounded, allowance cut, etc...) would choose this physical punishment. Maybe even there are studies linking poor and uneducated parents with physical punishment but I'm too lazy to google it...
actually, only bad parents will not try to instill some form of punishment for any form of bad behavior.

how so?


Because 2 unequal things are lumped together.
Bad parenting can lead to many ill effects that these studies note.
Slapping children is bad parenting IMHO.

"Studies show that the majority of people that consume broccoli or arsenic suffer from more health disorders than those that consume neither"

I know my example is extreme, but I believe the concept is exactly the same.

So, they replied to Gershoff, only saying she didnt examine normative corporal punishment, but NOT saying or proving that normative corporal punishment is effective/unharmful....Btw Anyone replied to Straus, Grogan-Kaylor?
Btw, what's your education level, Kecibukia?

Masters in History.

Because 2 unequal things are lumped together.
Bad parenting can lead to many ill effects that these studies note.
Slapping children is bad parenting IMHO.

"Studies show that the majority of people that consume broccoli or arsenic suffer from more health disorders than those that consume neither"

I know my example is extreme, but I believe the concept is exactly the same.

how are they unequal? the part of the body hit? it says nothing of the force of the strike.

And so have I.
no, you haven't. you linked to a study that says people approve of spanking their own children. I asked you to provide a link that says that spanking is not harmful to children.

The rest of the links you posted were to opinion peices, one of them was to a page that is known to be biased. I could write an opinion peice in my blog and link it, does that make it a scientific study?


I also included the fact that the links you posted recognized bias in the studies you posted.
I didn't ask for that, and I don't believe they proved bias anyway.

I want you to find me a study, that says that spanking is not harmful.

That suggests he views the discussion as the real punishment.


Indeed.
It's made me consider how the talks need to come across, but I think the real punishment in his mind was the delay getting back to the activty I pulled him from, not the actual conversation, at least I hope...

how are they unequal? the part of the body hit? it says nothing of the force of the strike.

You really don't see a difference between a slap on the face and a slap on the rear? Honestly?

actually, only bad parents will not try to instill some form of punishment for any form of bad behavior.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a long response. Read the links and studies, mr/mrs bad parent (if you are one)...

I thought "spanking = bad" as a common knowledge thing. But judging from the poll results, apperantly people from the less developed regions of the world think otherwise...

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/14/nfm.spanking/
gee, as a child that was spanked, I didn't realize that I had any Antisocial behavior was defined as cheating (never did), lying (Sometimes, but no more than most others), disobedience at school (you can count the number of times I was sent to the principals office on one hand... and still have enough fingers left over to write with), breaking things deliberately (never did), not feeling sorry after misbehaving (always felt sorry for misbehaving) or not getting along with teachers (seeing that I still keep in contact with many of my old Elementary school teachers...).

You really don't see a difference between a slap on the face and a slap on the rear? Honestly?


Yeah the difference is that they are different parts of the body. I dont see any other difference, honestly. Can you please explain how one is worse than the other?

I'm not even going to dignify this with a long response. Read the links and studies, mr/mrs bad parent (if you are one)...

And more of the personal attacks while ignoring the refutations provided. Of course you don't like someone doing exactly the same thing you do. Is hypocrisy a mark of not being spanked enough?

gee, as a child that was spanked, I didn't realize that I had any Antisocial behavior was defined as cheating (never did), lying (Sometimes, but no more than most others), disobedience at school (you can count the number of times I was sent to the principals office on one hand... and still have enough fingers left over to write with), breaking things deliberately (never did), not feeling sorry after misbehaving (always felt sorry for misbehaving) or not getting along with teachers (seeing that I still keep in contact with many of my old Elementary school teachers...).

Woa. You just yourself disproved a scientific study by providing us with your anectodal "evidences". Bravo... :rolleyes:

PS: Keep the sarcasm as a gift when you find it...

no, you haven't. you linked to a study that says people approve of spanking their own children. I asked you to provide a link that says that spanking is not harmful to children.

The rest of the links you posted were to opinion peices, one of them was to a page that is known to be biased. I could write an opinion peice in my blog and link it, does that make it a scientific study?



I didn't ask for that, and I don't believe they proved bias anyway.

I want you to find me a study, that says that spanking is not harmful.

From your own links:

None of the studies that we have examined prove a cause-and-effect link between spanking and later problems. A "chicken and egg" situation may exist:
bullet A pattern of harsh parental discipline might be the root causative factor of problems which emerge later, in adulthood.
bullet The propensity for later adult problems might have been present during early childhood. This might have made the subjects more prone to behavioral problems as children. This, in turn, may have driven their parents to try spanking as a means of control.

Read the various refutations.

why? how is it any different? the part of the body hit? it says nothing of the force of the strike.
spanking tends to imply sharp but not overly excertive force on the rear of the child.

Slapping tends to be on the face, which is closer to the brain, where real damage is done. Shaking your child can cause brain damage, so can a slap on the face/head.

Woa. You just yourself disproved a scientific study by providing us with your anectodal "evidences". Bravo... :rolleyes:

PS: Keep the sarcasm as a gift when you find it...

And yet all your links say "lead to" while there are numerous individual who do not show the signs that you make the accusation of. I guess it isn't popular to add those to the "studies".

how are they unequal? the part of the body hit? it says nothing of the force of the strike.


In order to be spanked on the bottom, a child needs to submit to the authority.
If the child is not submitting to the authority and understanding why he/she is suffering this consequence for their action, it is meaningless or worse, it could be creating the wrong behaviour itself.

There is no danger of accidentaly striking an eye, ear or nose etc. on the bottom.

Slapping a child almost always accompanies anger, rarely includes instruction and always removes their choice to submit and accept the consequences of their own actions.

Slapping children angers me, and in that case, I see no difference between slapping a child or slapping anyone else a person might be angry with.

gee, as a child that was spanked, I didn't realize that I had any Antisocial behavior was defined as cheating (never did), lying (Sometimes, but no more than most others), disobedience at school (you can count the number of times I was sent to the principals office on one hand... and still have enough fingers left over to write with), breaking things deliberately (never did), not feeling sorry after misbehaving (always felt sorry for misbehaving) or not getting along with teachers (seeing that I still keep in contact with many of my old Elementary school teachers...).
oh, JuNii you know I love ya, but anecdotal stories are no match for scientific studies.

I recovered from severe drug abuse, does that mean it's okay to abuse drugs? of course not, I was one of "the lucky ones", I am sure you noticed the study didn't say "100% of kids who get spanked behave in this way"

I'm not even going to dignify this with a long response. Read the links and studies, mr/mrs bad parent (if you are one)...
I have read the links, now read my posts and you'll find that while I do believe in the use of spanking, even I won't fall into your catagory of Bad Parents.

And more of the personal attacks while ignoring the refutations provided. Of course you don't like someone doing exactly the same thing you do. Is hypocrisy a mark of not being spanked enough?

Refutations? ROFL...Thx for reminding us the weakness of your position. Still waiting links/studies from your side which says spanking doesnt cause any negative effects and is an effective punishment....

From your own links:

None of the studies that we have examined prove a cause-and-effect link between spanking and later problems. A "chicken and egg" situation may exist:
bullet A pattern of harsh parental discipline might be the root causative factor of problems which emerge later, in adulthood.
bullet The propensity for later adult problems might have been present during early childhood. This might have made the subjects more prone to behavioral problems as children. This, in turn, may have driven their parents to try spanking as a means of control.

Read the various refutations.
again I am not asking for refutations, I said I could put up a website now and refute your refutations.

I want a study.

Refutations? ROFL...Thx for reminding us the weakness of your position. Still waiting links/studies from your side which says spanking doesnt cause any negative effects and is an effective punishment....

Already shown. Keep trying.

Training a child is the same as training any other young animal. They don't have a sense of time they only know the present. Just as it would do no good to give a puppy "time out" it does no good to give a child "time out". And just as with a puppy they don't have the language skills to understand an explaination. What can you explain to a 1 oe 2 year old? They don't need to know why, they only need to know yes and no. They must know immediate cause and effect. You do this and the effect is immediate not ten minutes later. If a child is to be civilized that civilization needs to be done between 1 and 6 years old. If you miss that window it takes a great deal more to bring discipline to the mind. If a parent hasn't trained the child by 6 it is doubtful that they will have the guts to train them after that. The best tool is one immediate, open hand swat to the bottom.

In my teaching, I can tell even at the college level which students were taught and those that were given "time out". Those that were properly trained are ready to work and study. Those that were given "time out" are totally not ready to face the mental discipline of college.

As a Boy Scout leader I've even seen how this is true of attention deficite kids. Those who's parents used discipline were only slightly harder to work with---those with "time out" totally disrupted the meetings. Interestingly, one of those "bad boys" came around when his uncle took him out a couple times, gave him a swat and brought him back. It was like night and day.

again I am not asking for refutations, I said I could put up a website now and refute your refutations.

I want a study.

Look at the links. Obviously you haven't. Your own sources state there's no direct causality.

And yet all your links say "lead to" while there are numerous individual who do not show the signs that you make the accusation of. I guess it isn't popular to add those to the "studies".

Some "lead to" 's are taken very seriously. For ex: Smoking may LEAD TO death.
But I guess bad parents cant be bothered with these things or civilized punishments like grounding, cutting tv, computer, allowance....etc...

spanking tends to imply sharp but not overly excertive force on the rear of the child.

Slapping tends to be on the face, which is closer to the brain, where real damage is done. Shaking your child can cause brain damage, so can a slap on the face/head.

so if its a slap then its overly exertive but if its a spanking then it isnt? where did you hear this?

Forgive me if I :rolleyes: at the thought of a slap causing brain damage... if it cause brain damage then its more like a punch than a slap. Like the slap Rick James did to Charlie Murphy.

Both physical strikes can cause damage when overly exertive I'm sure.

Saying one is child abuse and bad parenting while the other is not seems disingenuous or naieve.

Training a child is the same as training any other young animal. They don't have a sense of time they only know the present. Just as it would do no good to give a puppy "time out" it does no good to give a child "time out". And just as with a puppy they don't have the language skills to understand an explaination. What can you explain to a 1 oe 2 year old? They don't need to know why, they only need to know yes and no. They must know immediate cause and effect. You do this and the effect is immediate not ten minutes later. If a child is to be civilized that civilization needs to be done between 1 and 6 years old. If you miss that window it takes a great deal more to bring discipline to the mind. If a parent hasn't trained the child by 6 it is doubtful that they will have the guts to train them after that. The best tool is one immediate, open hand swat to the bottom.

In my teaching, I can tell even at the college level which students were taught and those that were given "time out". Those that were properly trained are ready to work and study. Those that were given "time out" are totally not ready to face the mental discipline of college.

As a Boy Scout leader I've even seen how this is true of attention deficite kids. Those who's parents used discipline were only slightly harder to work with---those with "time out" totally disrupted the meetings. Interestingly, one of those "bad boys" came around when his uncle took him out a couple times, gave him a swat and brought him back. It was like night and day.


No, real life doesn't count, they want "studies".

so if its a slap then its overly exertive but if its a spanking then it isnt? where did you hear this?

Forgive me if I :rolleyes: at the thought of a slap causing brain damage... if it cause brain damage then its more like a punch than a slap. Like the slap Rick James did to Charlie Murphy.

Both physical strikes can cause damage when overly exertive I'm sure.

Saying one is child abuse and bad parenting while the other is not seems disingenuous or naieve.


Obviously you've never been slapped.

Training a child is the same as training any other young animal. They don't have a sense of time they only know the present. Just as it would do no good to give a puppy "time out" it does no good to give a child "time out". And just as with a puppy they don't have the language skills to understand an explaination. What can you explain to a 1 oe 2 year old? They don't need to know why, they only need to know yes and no. They must know immediate cause and effect. You do this and the effect is immediate not ten minutes later. If a child is to be civilized that civilization needs to be done between 1 and 6 years old. If you miss that window it takes a great deal more to bring discipline to the mind. If a parent hasn't trained the child by 6 it is doubtful that they will have the guts to train them after that. The best tool is one immediate, open hand swat to the bottom.

In my teaching, I can tell even at the college level which students were taught and those that were given "time out". Those that were properly trained are ready to work and study. Those that were given "time out" are totally not ready to face the mental discipline of college.

As a Boy Scout leader I've even seen how this is true of attention deficite kids. Those who's parents used discipline were only slightly harder to work with---those with "time out" totally disrupted the meetings. Interestingly, one of those "bad boys" came around when his uncle took him out a couple times, gave him a swat and brought him back. It was like night and day.

a) children are not animals

b) time out is not meant for punishment

c) I am not interested in your anecdotal evidence of "you can tell who got spanked and who didn't" because it's pretty much useless.

Some "lead to" 's are taken very seriously. For ex: Smoking may LEAD TO death.
But I guess bad parents cant be bothered with these things or civilized punishments like grounding, cutting tv, computer, allowance....etc...

And more insulting. Sounds like you were the one w/ bad parents.

Since you haven't responded, I take it your attempt at an Ad Hominem by asking for my education level failed.

Training a child is the same as training any other young animal. They don't have a sense of time they only know the present. Just as it would do no good to give a puppy "time out" it does no good to give a child "time out". And just as with a puppy they don't have the language skills to understand an explaination. What can you explain to a 1 oe 2 year old? They don't need to know why, they only need to know yes and no. They must know immediate cause and effect. You do this and the effect is immediate not ten minutes later. If a child is to be civilized that civilization needs to be done between 1 and 6 years old. If you miss that window it takes a great deal more to bring discipline to the mind. If a parent hasn't trained the child by 6 it is doubtful that they will have the guts to train them after that. The best tool is one immediate, open hand swat to the bottom.

In my teaching, I can tell even at the college level which students were taught and those that were given "time out". Those that were properly trained are ready to work and study. Those that were given "time out" are totally not ready to face the mental discipline of college.

As a Boy Scout leader I've even seen how this is true of attention deficite kids. Those who's parents used discipline were only slightly harder to work with---those with "time out" totally disrupted the meetings. Interestingly, one of those "bad boys" came around when his uncle took him out a couple times, gave him a swat and brought him back. It was like night and day.

Is posting things bordering Sadistic tendencies acceptable on NSG?

c) I am not interested in your anecdotal evidence of "you can tell who got spanked and who didn't" because it's pretty much useless.

See, denial of real life.

so if its a slap then its overly exertive but if its a spanking then it isnt? where did you hear this?

Forgive me if I :rolleyes: at the thought of a slap causing brain damage... if it cause brain damage then its more like a punch than a slap. Like the slap Rick James did to Charlie Murphy.

Both physical strikes can cause damage when overly exertive I'm sure.

Saying one is child abuse and bad parenting while the other is not seems disingenuous or naieve.
There is obviously more damage that can be done to the head than can be done to the tail. The tail doesn't have a brain, eyes, ears, teeth, nose or any other parts that can be damaged by an open hand swat.

Look at the links. Obviously you haven't. Your own sources state there's no direct causality.
I have and I am getting tired of your insistance that they help your position in any way at all.

No, real life doesn't count, they want "studies".
studies are verifiable, "real life" is not verifiable on an internet forum.

all of the "I got spanked and I turned out fine" and the "I can tell a kid that wasn't spanked because they are bad" is bullshit and there is no scientific basis to it, basically you are talking out of your ass.

Already shown. Keep trying.

Where?

And more insulting. Sounds like you were the one w/ bad parents.
you know what? I will admit that I had bad parents. what are you going to do with that?

you know what? I will admit that I had bad parents. what are you going to do with that?

I really don't care. It's personal issues you need to deal w/ and stop projecting onto others.

I recovered from severe drug abuse, does that mean it's okay to abuse drugs? of course not, I was one of "the lucky ones", I am sure you noticed the study didn't say "100% of kids who get spanked behave in this way"
No, but it's evidence there might be other factors at work worth investigating.

If we accept the assertion that spanking makes certain later behaviours more likely, we can't really draw any conclusions yet until we know how likely those outcomes are, and how likely they'd be in the absence of spanking.

Plus, we need to examine the studies to see if they controlled for types of spanking or causes of spanking and whatnot. Spanking used indiscriminately would absolutely be a poor disciplinary tool, but so would most things.

I have and I am getting tired of your insistance that they help your position in any way at all.


studies are verifiable, "real life" is not verifiable on an internet forum.

all of the "I got spanked and I turned out fine" and the "I can tell a kid that wasn't spanked because they are bad" is bullshit and there is no scientific basis to it, basically you are talking out of your ass.

You have claimed that spanking is equal to physical assault and have posted "studies" claiming direct causality when your own links state otherwise and other examinations support that.

You deny that, claim your own abuse then deny that other examples are groundless.

And I'm still waiting for suggestions of other disciplinary tools, both at home and at school.

Only bad parents who fail to disciplinize via civilized means (room lockdown, tv, computer cut, being grounded, allowance cut, etc...) would choose this physical punishment. Maybe even there are studies linking poor and uneducated parents with physical punishment but I'm too lazy to google it...

Again, Ill call your bullshit for I was spanked and it kept me straight and narrow. My parents sure aren't uneducated and we are not poor either so you can kiss my ass dumbass for you are full of shit.

Spanking inevitably leads to alcoholism and more spanking.

Funny. I'm not an alcoholic and I was spanked. More bullshit.

Saying one is child abuse and bad parenting while the other is not seems disingenuous or naieve.

I explained the difference, without being either of those.

Again, Ill call your bullshit for I was spanked and it kept me straight and narrow. My parents sure aren't uneducated and we are not poor either so you can kiss my ass dumbass for you are full of shit.

Of course he's full of shit, as usual, but remember that not all kids are the same. What worked for you didn't work for me in the least (it only made me hate my dad).

Of course, I was never a wild, out-of-hand barbarian when I was a kid. His spankings/slappings/kickings were all for trivial shit... Usually accidents, like spilling water on the carpet.

I shit you not. The first time I spilled water on the carpet in our old house in Port Aransas, the back of his hand came flying at my face, and I fell to the floor. It was a fucking accident, and it was fucking water on tan carpet.

In order to be spanked on the bottom, a child needs to submit to the authority.
If the child is not submitting to the authority and understanding why he/she is suffering this consequence for their action, it is meaningless or worse, it could be creating the wrong behaviour itself.

There is no danger of accidentaly striking an eye, ear or nose etc. on the bottom.

Slapping a child almost always accompanies anger, rarely includes instruction and always removes their choice to submit and accept the consequences of their own actions.

Slapping children angers me, and in that case, I see no difference between slapping a child or slapping anyone else a person might be angry with.


OK, I can understand the danger of striking an eye with a slap. I never thought of that. They both seem like the same thing to me though; A slap on the ass or the cheek to administer pain and fear as a corrective measure.

I have been spanked more than once without submitting and I have been slapped upside the head in the same way. Those types of things usually didnt include any sort of explanation and both were done out of anger.

Thats why I don't think it is okay... it passes on to the child the belief that using violence is a good way to act toward someone who is doing something that you dont like.

And I'm still waiting for suggestions of other disciplinary tools, both at home and at school.
Um...how about non-physical consequencing? Like time-outs, revoking certain priviliges, and clearly outlining acceptable behaviour?

Sorry...is that rocket science?

Of course he's full of shit, as usual, but remember that not all kids are the same. What worked for you didn't work for me in the least (it only made me hate my dad).


Nothing you described from your life with your father should be acceptable or involved in a debate on the merits of spanking.

I empathise with you, but "spanking" was not the problem in your home.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a long response. Read the links and studies, mr/mrs bad parent (if you are one)...

Stop talking out of your ass.

Nothing you described from your life with your father should be acceptable or involved in a debate on the merits of spanking.

I empathise with you, but "spanking" was not the problem in your home.

I know that the real problem was him and his serious mental issues. Thank the legislature for the anti-abuse law in the early 90's, eh?

But why shouldn't my piece be allowed? It shows that his abuse for the trivial things I did only accomplished one thing: Hatred of him. Sure, he did a lot of things that aren't considered spanking, but the amount of spankings far outnumber those.

Obviously you've never been slapped.

actually I have... a few times... heres one instance - when I was in 5th grade my grandfater was teaching me to drive his old 64 Dodge pickup (on a country dirt road) - it was stick shift and I was having troubles(being short and those suckers arent easy to drive)... he got frustrated with me when I stalled it a third time and slapped me in the back of the head and my head hit the steering wheel pretty hard.

so what were you saying again?

Um...how about non-physical consequencing? Like time-outs, revoking certain priviliges, and clearly outlining acceptable behaviour?

Sorry...is that rocket science?
The problem with those is they either don't apply to 1-6 year olds where training has to take place. Or there is a time delay that a child 1-6 doesn't understand and make the connection with.

Some "lead to" 's are taken very seriously. For ex: Smoking may LEAD TO death.
But I guess bad parents cant be bothered with these things or civilized punishments like grounding, cutting tv, computer, allowance....etc...

Not only was I spanked but guess what? I lost TV, was grounded, and had my video games locked up.

You really need to shut the fuck up because it is apparent you know jack shit.

c) I am not interested in your anecdotal evidence of "you can tell who got spanked and who didn't" because it's pretty much useless.

And this is why you are losing this discussion for you ignore evidence when it hits you in the face. And to think I used to like you.

OK, I can understand the danger of striking an eye with a slap. I never thought of that. They both seem like the same thing to me though; A slap on the ass or the cheek to administer pain and fear as a corrective measure.

I have been spanked more than once without submitting and I have been slapped upside the head in the same way. Those types of things usually didnt include any sort of explanation and both were done out of anger.

Thats why I don't think it is okay... it passes on to the child the belief that using violence is a good way to act toward someone who is doing something that you dont like.

If that is what you call spanking, then I whole heartedly agree with you. It's not OK and it's teaching all the wrong things.

The problem with those is they either don't apply to 1-6 year olds where training has to take place. Or there is a time delay that a child 1-6 doesn't understand and make the connection with.
Funny. Both my children are under 6 and it works fine.

So I should be slapping them until they are six, despite the fact that other methods work just fine?

And this is why you are losing this discussion for you ignore evidence when it hits you in the face. And to think I used to like you.
You're going a bit too far.

Not only was I spanked but guess what? I lost TV, was grounded, and had my video games locked up.

You really need to shut the fuck up because it is apparent you know jack shit.


wow this issue must really strike a chord with you. I've never seen you be such an ass before so many times in one thread.

why does it anger you so that people dont believe in being violent to young children?

I am all for personal freedom but when it comes to physically hurting other people (your family or not) I can't condone such things..

You're going a bit too far.

Ask me if I truly care!

Funny. Both my children are under 6 and it works fine.

So I should be slapping them until they are six, despite the fact that other methods work just fine?
Exactly what "privilages" does a 1 year old have?

I know that the real problem was him and his serious mental issues. Thank the legislature for the anti-abuse law in the early 90's, eh?

But why shouldn't my piece be allowed? It shows that his abuse for the trivial things I did only accomplished one thing: Hatred of him. Sure, he did a lot of things that aren't considered spanking, but the amount of spankings far outnumber those.


I'm not trying to deny your input, but in my opinion, you were never spanked, you were abused. The fact that behaviour that is similar to spankings was a part of the abuse is unfortunate.

If that is what you call spanking, then I whole heartedly agree with you. It's not OK and it's teaching all the wrong things.


but thats the thing - why give approval for parents to ht their kids (as long as it doesnt break anything) if you cant be sure how parents are going to use it? I suspect most parents who use it dont use it as a last resort and they probably dont ecven explain to their kids why it's 'necessary' to use it.

wow this issue must really strike a chord with you. I've never seen you be such an ass before so many times in one thread.

why does it anger you so that people dont believe in being violent to young children?

Spanking =/= violence! What I hate is for people who do not know jack shit about something they are talking about and proclaim that they are right when in fact they are wrong.

I am all for personal freedom but when it comes to physically hurting other people (your family or not) I can't condone such things..

Hurting? Yea it hurts! For about a second.

Exactly what "privilages" does a 1 year old have?
First...if you think you should be spanking a child who is one or younger, you should seriously reconsider your role as a parent.

Second, consequences develop as children do. Timeouts work with my four-year-old much more than my two-year-old. What works best with the two-year-old is seeing someone get sad, for example, the child that she just stole a toy from, or hit, or kicked sand at. When she has to actually realise that what she did hurt this other child, it bothers her, sometimes to the point where she actually cries.

The four-year-old detests the time-outs, because I remove her from her toys.

So, I'm spanking them why?

Spanking =/= violence!

hitting someone to cause pain or fear is violence whether you want to acknowlege it or not.

What I hate is for people who do not know jack shit about something they are talking about and proclaim that they are right when in fact they are wrong.

wlel you encounter that all day long on here with liberals (in your opinion) on other subjects and I've never seen you be such a dick so consistently before.

Come on Cornnuts... you are seriously starting to dislike sweet little Smunkee because she doesnt agree with spanking children?

Hurting? Yea it hurts! For about a second.

and it hurts mentally for a lifetime

What I hate is for people who do not know jack shit about something they are talking about and proclaim that they are right when in fact they are wrong.

We've been putting up with this from you for ages...and it's a problem now all of a sudden?:eek:

(I'm kidding Corn, but I couldn't resist...you are a bit frothy at the mouth right now)

Spanking wouldn't work if there was no intimidation involved, if there was no fear.

Spanking wouldn't work if there was no intimidation involved, if there was no fear.


yep

btw - good to see you back! *hugs*:fluffle:

We've been putting up with this from you for ages...and it's a problem now all of a sudden?:eek:

(I'm kidding Corn, but I couldn't resist...you are a bit frothy at the mouth right now)

Sorry. Just in a very very bad mood.

Sorry. Just in a very very bad mood.
Ice-cream does wonders on a hot day...

Ice-cream does wonders on a hot day...

Ya know? That's not a bad idea.

*runs down to the kitchen to get Ice Cream*

Spanking wouldn't work if there was no intimidation involved, if there was no fear.

Ive seen a child spanked for the first time ever. It seemed to work even though it was a complete surprise to the child.

Ive seen a child spanked for the first time ever. It seemed to work even though it was a complete surprise to the child.

Just as it should.

First...if you think you should be spanking a child who is one or younger, you should seriously reconsider your role as a parent.

Second, consequences develop as children do. Timeouts work with my four-year-old much more than my two-year-old. What works best with the two-year-old is seeing someone get sad, for example, the child that she just stole a toy from, or hit, or kicked sand at. When she has to actually realise that what she did hurt this other child, it bothers her, sometimes to the point where she actually cries.

The four-year-old detests the time-outs, because I remove her from her toys.

So, I'm spanking them why?
I never tried to train before 1. I trained between 1 and 6. I never had to discipline my children after 6. I trained them and they stayed trained. Children are like dogs with a bone. It's all ME--ME--ME. They also have no concept of time. You might shame your child into crying for another child but I can also get a dog to hold it's tail down without teaching it anything.

With animals and children TIME is everything. They don't have the concept of time to think 5 minutes (or 5 seconds) into the future. And they don't have the vocabulary to understand explainations to complex social norms. And if they don't learn those norms before 6 they nost likely never will. That is why we have so many in this society that don't have a concept of social norms and wonder why society doesn't bend to their whims.

but thats the thing - why give approval for parents to ht their kids (as long as it doesnt break anything) if you cant be sure how parents are going to use it? I suspect most parents who use it dont use it as a last resort and they probably dont ecven explain to their kids why it's 'necessary' to use it.

Why give approval to parents to emotional abuse their children?

The point is that it's NOT the spanking that's the problem.

I work with a woman that would never dream of spanking her child, she's horrified at the thought, but she doesn't think twice about verbally abusing her daughter anywhere, anytime and building a smoldering, festering hate behind her daughter's eyes that hurts me to even imagine in my daughters or my son.

Spanking wouldn't work if there was no intimidation involved, if there was no fear.


Absolutely untrue.
THAT is precisely when it fails, IMHO.

Spanking wouldn't work if there was no intimidation involved, if there was no fear.
It's like puttling up an electric fence for my cows. It doesn't hurt as much as it is a surprise (yes, I've touched my own fence). After a few days I can shut off the fence and they know exactly where the limits are without any shock at all. Kids are the same way. Train them right between 1 and 6 and they will know the limits without punishment.

Why give approval to parents to emotional abuse their children?

The point is that it's NOT the spanking that's the problem.

I work with a woman that would never dream of spanking her child, she's horrified at the thought, but she doesn't think twice about verbally abusing her daughter anywhere, anytime and building a smoldering, festering hate behind her daughter's eyes that hurts me to even imagine in my daughters or my son.


no, parents shouldn't verbally abuse their children either. they shoudl love them and treat them how they would liek to be treated.

my grandmother used to verbally abuse me - she would tell me how worthless I was and how I would grow up to be just like my father... a homeless piece of shit. she would also say a lot of stuff behind my back but I could always hear her in the other room saying how she wished I was never born and all kinds of crap.

no wonder I felt nothing when she died.

I still feel the pain of her verbal abuse as well as the pain of my grandfathers physical abuse.

It is the verbal and physical abuse that is the problem.

oh, JuNii you know I love ya, but anecdotal stories are no match for scientific studies.

I recovered from severe drug abuse, does that mean it's okay to abuse drugs? of course not, I was one of "the lucky ones", I am sure you noticed the study didn't say "100% of kids who get spanked behave in this way"
Love ya too Smunkee, but I will take personal Experience over Studies any day. why? because these studies are all baised on a small group of people interpreting raw data. who knows how they are interpreting that data, and even what questions they asked or even who they studied in this survey.

Now, if you also note, I do agree that spanking should be used only as a last resort, not first and not frequently. I also never said that punnishment should be done alone. the child does need to understand why they are being punnished (as I was told everytime I was spanked.)

also, where the child is spanked is important, torso, stomach and head/face area is not discipline, but abuse... plain and simple. there is no reason to hit a child in any of those areas.

As I have also said, there is no Universal Method of raising children. what works for one child may not work on others. same as what works with one set of parents won't work for all parents.

Ive seen a child spanked for the first time ever. It seemed to work even though it was a complete surprise to the child.
Sorry...you negated my point somewhere? Point it out to me please.

I never tried to train before 1. I trained between 1 and 6. I never had to discipline my children after 6. I trained them and they stayed trained. Children are like dogs with a bone. It's all ME--ME--ME. They also have no concept of time. You might shame your child into crying for another child but I can also get a dog to hold it's tail down without teaching it anything.

With animals and children TIME is everything. They don't have the concept of time to think 5 minutes (or 5 seconds) into the future. And they don't have the vocabulary to understand explainations to complex social norms. And if they don't learn those norms before 6 they nost likely never will. That is why we have so many in this society that don't have a concept of social norms and wonder why society doesn't bend to their whims.
I missing the part where you explain how spanking 'teaches' these complex social norms.

Yes, by not spanking my children, I must be creating sociopaths:rolleyes:

c) I am not interested in your anecdotal evidence of "you can tell who got spanked and who didn't" because it's pretty much useless.now that's rather unfair of you Smunkee. While I will admit that unless he does get his methods properly tested, it's only his observations, that doesn't make it any less in value than anyone elses obervation and interpretation.

after all, the success you have with your daughter is also anecdotal, yet I am glad and will support you against any "Homeschooling = Bad" argument.

studies are verifiable, "real life" is not verifiable on an internet forum.

all of the "I got spanked and I turned out fine" and the "I can tell a kid that wasn't spanked because they are bad" is bullshit and there is no scientific basis to it, basically you are talking out of your ass.and what tests did these studies perform, are you sure that the data wasn't altered to support a popular opinion? Unless you can witness these tests from beginning to end, here on the Internet, the only difference between Anticdotial testimonies and Scientific studies is the PHD, the publishing and the Funding.

notice that most of the "I got spanked and I turned out fine" and the "I can tell a kid that wasn't spanked because they are bad" remarks are usually in reguard to those that state "spanking is bad, it makes kids turn bad" and the "I can tell a kid that was spanked because they are bad" remarks.

I missing the part where you explain how spanking 'teaches' these complex social norms.

Yes, by not spanking my children, I must be creating sociopaths:rolleyes:
Most social norms are do or don't do. Yet the reasons behind the do and don't do are complex. Far too complex for a 1-6 year old to comprehend.

Not sociopaths, but the students I have that were "time out" trained simply tend to be at the ME-ME-ME level rather than the WE-WE-WE level. As such they have a hard time understanding such things as teamwork, or the concept of authority or the concept of time use. They seem to think all are equal. A good concept for civil rights, but not the way that business or education works in real life.

Hush everyone, it's been proven that children are just like animals. This whole conversation is moot. They should simply all be put in obedience training and that will be that.

Most social norms are do or don't do. Yet the reasons behind the do and don't do are complex. Far too complex for a 1-6 year old to comprehend.

Not sociopaths, but the students I have that were "time out" trained simply tend to be at the ME-ME-ME level rather than the WE-WE-WE level. As such they have a hard time understanding such things as teamwork, or the concept of authority or the concept of time use. They seem to think all are equal. A good concept for civil rights, but not the way that business or education works in real life.
You have absolutely no idea what the total discipline plan was in the home of your students, and if you claim otherwise, you're lying, or fooling yourself.

Some kids respond to spanking, some don't. Some parents know how to use it and make it non-abusive, and some don't. Each kid is different, and the discipline (note, NOT PUNISHMENT) needs to reflect that.

Hopefully, spanking would be a last resort, after other methods have been tried...but you don't seem to be supporting that.

I agree with spanking to a certain point; I am proof it works if you do it right. Once when I was a kid (around 2-4) I punched my mom, so she puched me back. I never did it again (this only happened once). No harm no foul.

you know what? I will admit that I had bad parents. what are you going to do with that?
this.... :fluffle:

Most social norms are do or don't do. Yet the reasons behind the do and don't do are complex. Far too complex for a 1-6 year old to comprehend.


By the way, if you can't simplify it for them, then you should try harder.

"Why can't I hit Jimmy, mom?"
"Because you'll hurt him and he'll cry, and he might not want to play with you."

My kids must be absolute geniuses. They get that quite well.

As opposed to:

"Why can't I hit Jimmy, mom?"
"Because hitting is bad, and if you do it, I'll hit YOU!"

Sorry...you negated my point somewhere? Point it out to me please.

I didnt negate your point. I showed it to be other than universally true.

I didnt negate your point. I showed it to be other than universally true.
Oh hush, everything I say is universally true, except when it's wrong, when it becomes universally untrue, but since it could have been truth, it actually is, rendering me right once again.

actually I have... a few times... heres one instance - when I was in 5th grade my grandfater was teaching me to drive his old 64 Dodge pickup (on a country dirt road) - it was stick shift and I was having troubles(being short and those suckers arent easy to drive)... he got frustrated with me when I stalled it a third time and slapped me in the back of the head and my head hit the steering wheel pretty hard.

so what were you saying again?so obviously you know the difference between slapping and spanking. ;)

Hush everyone, it's been proven that children are just like animals. This whole conversation is moot. They should simply all be put in obedience training and that will be that.


Children are not animals? What about adults?

Where is sea monkey training school and how do I spank them when they misbehave?

Children are not animals? What about adults?

Where is sea monkey training school and how do I spank them when they misbehave?
I thought spanking your sea monkey was a euphemism:confused:

I thought spanking your sea monkey was a euphemism:confused:

I want to make it a reality in my lifetime:p

Oh hush, everything I say is universally true, except when it's wrong, when it becomes universally untrue, but since it could have been truth, it actually is, rendering me right once again.

Oh all right I give up. You win.

Oh all right I give up. You win.
I already knew that.

I already knew that.

LOL! You always win :)

And thanks fo the Ice Cream suggestion. Between that and talking to my gf, I'm in a better mood.

And this is why you are losing this discussion for you ignore evidence when it hits you in the face. And to think I used to like you.
actually corneliu, no one is winning or loosing for there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to raising children and spanking (note, not slapping, hitting or dropkicking.)
it's only a difference of opinions.

Sorry. Just in a very very bad mood.
it shows. :(

actually corneliu, no one is winning or loosing for there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to raising children and spanking (note, not slapping, hitting or dropkicking.)
it's only a difference of opinions.

Dont tell that to Sin or you'll have a mad wildcat on your hands.

And this is why you are losing this discussion for you ignore evidence when it hits you in the face. And to think I used to like you.
aww, you don't like me? *cries*



oh, wait, I don't care.

now that's rather unfair of you Smunkee. While I will admit that unless he does get his methods properly tested, it's only his observations, that doesn't make it any less in value than anyone elses obervation and interpretation.
okay, lets look at the situation
"I have 4 studies that say that spanking is harmful to children"
"I have a page that says that study is wrong, because they say that parents like to spank their children"
"that isn't very useful, nor does it support your position that spanking is helpful, do you have a study to support that?"
"no, but I know this kid that didn't get spanked and he is evil, so spanking is good"

after all, the success you have with your daughter is also anecdotal, yet I am glad and will support you against any "Homeschooling = Bad" argument.
and I have studies, extensive studies that can show that there on the whole is nothing wrong with homeschooling, that the children are well adjusted, score higher on tests and, that they generally do the same or better in life than public schooled kids.

You have absolutely no idea what the total discipline plan was in the home of your students, and if you claim otherwise, you're lying, or fooling yourself.

Some kids respond to spanking, some don't. Some parents know how to use it and make it non-abusive, and some don't. Each kid is different, and the discipline (note, NOT PUNISHMENT) needs to reflect that.

Hopefully, spanking would be a last resort, after other methods have been tried...but you don't seem to be supporting that.
You're right, I only know what they tell me. If they tell me they did "time out" they usually acompany it with a giggle like it was no big deal. If they tell me they were spanked it is usually with a straight face.

Each kid is different. But we have to talk in general terms. Everything in the world is "odds are". Nothing is 100%. Odds are the serious student had parents that trained them between 1 and 6. Not always but "odds are".

The problem still comes down to the fact that 1-6 year olds have not eaten from the tree of good and evil. In this way they are just like the other animals. The other two problems that I have stated is they have no concept of time (they only know NOW) and no vocabulary to understand calm explanations. Those rwo problems can only be resolved with age. But we don't have forever. Miss the window of 1-6 and you will be giving "time out" to teenagers. I never punished my children after 6. I didn't need to. I had them trained.

Hush everyone, it's been proven that children are just like animals. This whole conversation is moot. They should simply all be put in obedience training and that will be that.
:eek: is that why my leg shakes when someone rubs my belly? :p :D

You're right, I only know what they tell me. If they tell me they did "time out" they usually acompany it with a giggle like it was no big deal. If they tell me they were spanked it is usually with a straight face.

Each kid is different. But we have to talk in general terms. Everything in the world is "odds are". Nothing is 100%. Odds are the serious student had parents that trained them between 1 and 6. Not always but "odds are".

The problem still comes down to the fact that 1-6 year olds have not eaten from the tree of good and evil. In this way they are just like the other animals. The other two problems that I have stated is they have no concept of time (they only know NOW) and no vocabulary to understand calm explanations. Those rwo problems can only be resolved with age. But we don't have forever. Miss the window of 1-6 and you will be giving "time out" to teenagers. I never punished my children after 6. I didn't need to. I had them trained.Trained. Like dogs. How sweet. You still haven't explained how you did that using spanking.

Trained. Like dogs. How sweet. You still haven't explained how you did that using spanking.
don't you understand Sin? they are like horses, you smack them around to break their will, then they are too scared to be bad.

By the way, if you can't simplify it for them, then you should try harder.

"Why can't I hit Jimmy, mom?"
"Because you'll hurt him and he'll cry, and he might not want to play with you."

My kids must be absolute geniuses. They get that quite well.

As opposed to:

"Why can't I hit Jimmy, mom?"
"Because hitting is bad, and if you do it, I'll hit YOU!"
on that I will agree with you.

your example is using spanking as a frequent use punnishment.

now let's use your same level of exaggeration for Time Out.

"Why can't I hit Jimmy, mom?"
"Because you'll hurt him and he'll cry, and he might not want to play with you. so if you hit Jimmy, I will put you on that bench for time out where Jimmy cannot play with you anyway."

don't you understand Sin? they are like horses, you smack them around to break their will, then they are too scared to be bad.

That works better in boot camp than on horses.

on that I will agree with you.

your example is using spanking as a frequent use punnishment.

now let's use your same level of exaggeration for Time Out.

"Why can't I hit Jimmy, mom?"
"Because you'll hurt him and he'll cry, and he might not want to play with you. so if you hit Jimmy, I will put you on that bench for time out where Jimmy cannot play with you anyway."
You obviously don't understand what kind of agony it is for a child to watch other children playing right in front of them, and not having permission to join in.

That works better in boot camp than on horses.
been around wild horses much?

You're right, I only know what they tell me. If they tell me they did "time out" they usually acompany it with a giggle like it was no big deal. If they tell me they were spanked it is usually with a straight face.

Each kid is different. But we have to talk in general terms. Everything in the world is "odds are". Nothing is 100%. Odds are the serious student had parents that trained them between 1 and 6. Not always but "odds are".

The problem still comes down to the fact that 1-6 year olds have not eaten from the tree of good and evil. In this way they are just like the other animals. The other two problems that I have stated is they have no concept of time (they only know NOW) and no vocabulary to understand calm explanations. Those rwo problems can only be resolved with age. But we don't have forever. Miss the window of 1-6 and you will be giving "time out" to teenagers. I never punished my children after 6. I didn't need to. I had them trained.

Did you miss psych class? That is NOT the correct window, if, indeed, such a window exists at all. Kids have a good concept of time. I haven't forgotten my childhood that quickly. Have you?

been around wild horses much?

Nope. You catch wild adult horses that have had no human training from colthood and break them?

Nope. You catch wild adult horses that have had no human training from colthood and break them?
me? no, I couldn't bear to do it. I have family who do though. I ride them after they are broken.

Spanking shouldn't be used all of the time and other options should be tried first, but spanking is definitely needed in the raising of children.

A great deal of kids nowadays feel like they can get away with just about anything because their parents are too afraid to discipline them and kids know it. When time-outs, restrictions, taking away their favorite items and lecturing doesn't work, what does? A good thwapping to the most padded part of a kid's body. Not enough to do physical damage, but enough to get a sting that lasts for several minutes and serves as a decent sign that they f*cked up.

It gets the point across where words can't. You wag your finger and tell Little Johnny, "No, no!" and he laughs at you right before he does it again. You tell Little Johnny he's going to get a spanking and the first thing he does is grab his bottom and start crying. At some point kids need to have a fear of consequence because, when they get older and do something wrong, the people in prison aren't so gentle as mommy and daddy.

You don't need to spank your kid (http://childdevelopmentinfo.com/parenting/parenting.shtml) if you have good discipline.

I am frankly amazed that anyone claiming to be a teacher would be unable to see that. We can't hit them in the classroom, and somehow those of us who are successful at classroom management keep the class from descending into chaos.

No child is too young to be disciplined, and that does not ever have to include physical punishment.

The kids you are talking about, the spoiled brats, generally do NOT have effective discipline in the home, and 'time-outs' are not actually to blame.

Did you miss psych class? That is NOT the correct window, if, indeed, such a window exists at all. Kids have a good concept of time. I haven't forgotten my childhood that quickly. Have you?
Yes, mostly.:p

me? no, I couldn't bear to do it. I have family who do though. I ride them after they are broken.

I think that spanking kids can be a tool like hitting wild horses can be a tool. Certainly it would be better if the whole world had the needed tools to raise children your way, without spanking, it would be good.

For many the option of corporal discipline seems to be no or little discipline. This has many children growing up like those wild horses. I'd say between those two choices corporal punishment is the better. There are a quite a few adults who were spanked as children who are good and decent people who are upright positive members of society and who are pretty good parents who do not visciously beat their kids (whether they spank them or not). I believe that there are far fewer adults who were undisciplined or under-disciplined as children who turn out as anything like positive additions to society.

Spanking shouldn't be used all of the time and other options should be tried first, but spanking is definitely needed in the raising of children.

A great deal of kids nowadays feel like they can get away with just about anything because their parents are too afraid to discipline them and kids know it. When time-outs, restrictions, taking away their favorite items and lecturing doesn't work, what does? A good thwapping to the most padded part of a kid's body. Not enough to do physical damage, but enough to get a sting that lasts for several minutes and serves as a decent sign that they f*cked up.

It gets the point across where words can't. You wag your finger and tell Little Johnny, "No, no!" and he laughs at you right before he does it again. You tell Little Johnny he's going to get a spanking and the first thing he does is grab his bottom and start crying. At some point kids need to have a fear of consequence because, when they get older and do something wrong, the people in prison aren't so gentle as mommy and daddy.
Do it right for a couple of years, and after that, you won't have to spank nearly so often. Just looking at them sternly puts the fear of they iron hand in the velvet glove into them.

Did you miss psych class? That is NOT the correct window, if, indeed, such a window exists at all. Kids have a good concept of time. I haven't forgotten my childhood that quickly. Have you?
I remember childhood. I remember when a day was a long time. A week was forever. A month....They almost never changed.

Today a month is nothing. A year little more. The older I get the faster it goes.

What window would you use to train children? How long do you think the child's mind keeps a connection between action and results?

I remember childhood. I remember when a day was a long time. A week was forever. A month....They almost never changed.

Today a month is nothing. A year little more. The older I get the faster it goes.

What window would you use to train children? How long do you think the child's mind keeps a connection between action and results?

Oh, the punishment has to be swift, certainly. But spanking? No.

As I said, I don't know what the window is, if there is one. I don't think there really is one. When the child is too young to understand when you explain, the child is too young to understand what is meant by the spanking, and thus the spanking is not useful. Once the child is able to understand through the spanking, the child can understand through words, too. (think Piaget, for a simplified explanation) Yes, the words and ideas will still have to be simple, but they can be used. And sometimes, you do have to let the child learn on his/her own.

You don't need to spank your kid (http://childdevelopmentinfo.com/parenting/parenting.shtml) if you have good discipline.

I am frankly amazed that anyone claiming to be a teacher would be unable to see that. We can't hit them in the classroom, and somehow those of us who are successful at classroom management keep the class from descending into chaos.

No child is too young to be disciplined, and that does not ever have to include physical punishment.

The kids you are talking about, the spoiled brats, generally do NOT have effective discipline in the home, and 'time-outs' are not actually to blame.
You have to get to them in their infancy. That's when they learn to care. If they're concerned about disappointing you as they grow older, they'll be much less likely to do things that would, in fact disappoint you. But I find a lot of young people these days don't care. They never have. Their parents never made them feel that caring about others was beneficial.

Oh, the punishment has to be swift, certainly. But spanking? No.
What is swifter?

What is swifter?
If spanking is your swiftest tool, you aren't using it as a last resort.

Oh, the punishment has to be swift, certainly. But spanking? No.
It has to start early, as well. Infancy. That's the time to foster their bond, make them care, make them feel the appropriate actions are important through positive reinforcement. Pride can be the strongest disciplinary tool.

What is swifter?

Starting up a lecture and making the kid stay for it.

Also, see what I added to that post.

It has to start early, as well. Infancy. That's the time to foster their bond, make them care, make them feel the appropriate actions are important through positive reinforcement. Pride can be the strongest disciplinary tool.

Yes, positive reinforcement. Which spanking is not. And I added more to that post.

Spanking is a useful tool. Used properly and sparingly it can be very effective. There are some useful guidelines:
1. Only spank if everything else has failed.
2. Don't threaten a spanking then fail to deliver, if you say you're going to do it, then do it.
3. Never spank in anger.
4. A spanking consists of 2-3 swats with the flat hand (not your fist) on the bare buttocks, nothing else.
5. Never slap the face.
6. Never use paddles, belts, brushes, cords, etc. - just the hand.
7. If you don't trust yourself to stop, then find something else. Spanking is not for you.

My wife and i have raised three girls who are now all adults without spanking. They are all fine individuals. Spanking is not needed. There may be a rare occasion where a swat on the butt is necessary, but it is not an effective form of training and disicipline for children. It merely teaches them to hit children.

And I added more to that post.

Sneaky but not swift.

Oh, the punishment has to be swift, certainly. But spanking? No.

As I said, I don't know what the window is, if there is one. I don't think there really is one. When the child is too young to understand when you explain, the child is too young to understand what is meant by the spanking, and thus the spanking is not useful. Once the child is able to understand through the spanking, the child can understand through words, too. (think Piaget, for a simplified explanation) Yes, the words and ideas will still have to be simple, but they can be used. And sometimes, you do have to let the child learn on his/her own.
They will understand a spanking. It means pain, and they associate pain with bad feelings. But words have a tone, and they associate tones with corresponding emotions as well, so it is possible to have a more potent effect without the physical impression of trauma on the psyche.

Sneaky but not swift.
Maybe she should have added a spanking instead. :p

You obviously don't understand what kind of agony it is for a child to watch other children playing right in front of them, and not having permission to join in.been through it, guess what, it just made me not want to play with them.

that's why Time Outs and Groundings and taking away privilages (T.V., and other such stuff) didn't work for me, because I would rather sit in my room with my imagination... that's why spanking worked for me.

again tho, your example was a bad one because it uses spanking as the primary and first choice of discipline.

I think that spanking kids can be a tool like hitting wild horses can be a tool. Certainly it would be better if the whole world had the needed tools to raise children your way, without spanking, it would be good.
well, when my book comes out maybe it will help some people.

For many the option of corporal discipline seems to be no or little discipline. This has many children growing up like those wild horses. I'd say between those two choices corporal punishment is the better. There are a quite a few adults who were spanked as children who are good and decent people who are upright positive members of society and who are pretty good parents who do not visciously beat their kids (whether they spank them or not). I believe that there are far fewer adults who were undisciplined or under-disciplined as children who turn out as anything like positive additions to society.
if you start from the begining, and are clear and consistent, after a while your children will have self control and you won't have to chase them around like a cop waiting to "bust" them (no pun intended)

starting late, IMO is not a good excuse for hitting a child.

Starting up a lecture and making the kid stay for it.

Also, see what I added to that post.
I've mastered that technique. And the threat of pain, in the event that one fails.

Do it right for a couple of years, and after that, you won't have to spank nearly so often. Just looking at them sternly puts the fear of they iron hand in the velvet glove into them.


It's honestly my very last resort. I think I may have had to spank my son twice in tha past year and they were for things where nothing else worked to get it through. He's stubborn like me. I think it's more or less the thought of being spanked that gets to him because I know my spankings aren't really solid enough to hurt. I don't personally have the heart for it.

don't you understand Sin? they are like horses, you smack them around to break their will, then they are too scared to be bad.don't forget Smunkee... there are some parents that equate broken spirits with good behavior.

Edit: sorry, tired from work, re arrainged words to make them mean what I wanted them to mean. :D

Yes, positive reinforcement. Which spanking is not. And I added more to that post.
I payed a little attention in psych class.;)

They will understand a spanking. It means pain, and they associate pain with bad feelings. But words have a tone, and they associate tones with corresponding emotions as well, so it is possible to have a more potent effect without the physical impression of trauma on the psyche.

Oh, sure, they understand what a spanking is, and if they are old enough they understand what caused it, but they don't understand why it is happening until they are old/developed enough to understand when explained in words. Unless you expressly try to make them not learn a language. In which case you'd have to do some pretty abusive stuff. :/

Spanking is a useful tool. Used properly and sparingly it can be very effective. There are some useful guidelines:
1. Only spank if everything else has failed.
2. Don't threaten a spanking then fail to deliver, if you say you're going to do it, then do it.
3. Never spank in anger.
4. A spanking consists of 2-3 swats with the flat hand (not your fist) on the bare buttocks, nothing else.
5. Never slap the face.
6. Never use paddles, belts, brushes, cords, etc. - just the hand.
7. If you don't trust yourself to stop, then find something else. Spanking is not for you.nice, and agreed with, if I also may add to point 5,
chest, stomach, head (back of, forhead, top of) and back are also no-no areas for blows. (slaps and spankings.)

been through it, guess what, it just made me not want to play with them.

that's why Time Outs and Groundings and taking away privilages (T.V., and other such stuff) didn't work for me, because I would rather sit in my room with my imagination... that's why spanking worked for me.

again tho, your example was a bad one because it uses spanking as the primary and first choice of discipline.
The one thing my mother would never take away from me was the one thing I cared most about: books. I could always read. Heh, she did ground me more than a few times for staying up to all hours of the morning reading, though.

Spanking is a useful tool. Used properly and sparingly it can be very effective. There are some useful guidelines:
1. Only spank if everything else has failed.
2. Don't threaten a spanking then fail to deliver, if you say you're going to do it, then do it.
3. Never spank in anger.
4. A spanking consists of 2-3 swats with the flat hand (not your fist) on the bare buttocks, nothing else.
5. Never slap the face.
6. Never use paddles, belts, brushes, cords, etc. - just the hand.
7. If you don't trust yourself to stop, then find something else. Spanking is not for you.
These are reasonable guidelines.

I payed a little attention in psych class.;)

But not in English. Sorry, it was open.

Ah, so not only do you know the difference between reinforcement and punishment, but the difference between positive and negative?

The one thing my mother would never take away from me was the one thing I cared most about: books. I could always read. Heh, she did ground me more than a few times for staying up to all hours of the morning reading, though.
one day, I will ask my mother if she ever regrets introducing me to Fantasy and Sci Fi Books. :)

well, when my book comes out maybe it will help some people.


if you start from the begining, and are clear and consistent, after a while your children will have self control and you won't have to chase them around like a cop waiting to "bust" them (no pun intended)

starting late, IMO is not a good excuse for hitting a child.
There is no reason to start late at all. Discipline should be ingrained from birth.

well, when my book comes out maybe it will help some people.


if you start from the begining, and are clear and consistent, after a while your children will have self control and you won't have to chase them around like a cop waiting to "bust" them (no pun intended)

starting late, IMO is not a good excuse for hitting a child.

Maybe your book will help. Dr Spock's book of spankless rearing sure got twisted though. Until your book does come out however and becomes the holy script of child rearing we will still have the spectre of parents without your tools to use, whether you consider their lack of tools an excuse or not..

one day, I will ask my mother if she ever regrets introducing me to Fantasy and Sci Fi Books. :)

Remind me to bother you when mine is out! Sci-fi/fantasy mix. :cool:

There is no reason to start late at all. Discipline should be ingrained from birth.

Are you suggesting that discipline is genetic in nature rather than learned behavior?

again tho, your example was a bad one because it uses spanking as the primary and first choice of discipline.
Which is it with way too many people who are spank-happy.

Are you suggesting that discipline is genetic in nature rather than learned behavior?

Discipline is learned behavior.

It's honestly my very last resort. I think I may have had to spank my son twice in tha past year and they were for things where nothing else worked to get it through. He's stubborn like me. I think it's more or less the thought of being spanked that gets to him because I know my spankings aren't really solid enough to hurt. I don't personally have the heart for it.
Exactly. My little brother looks up to me a lot. He knows when he disappoints me. I rarely need to spank him because he knows even before he sees the look in my eyes. He knows how much I hate having to do it.

Oh, sure, they understand what a spanking is, and if they are old enough they understand what caused it, but they don't understand why it is happening until they are old/developed enough to understand when explained in words. Unless you expressly try to make them not learn a language. In which case you'd have to do some pretty abusive stuff. :/
They learn. Pain teaches faster than words, usually, but it's not the more beneficial lesson.

Maybe your book will help. Dr Spock's book of spankless rearing sure got twisted though. Until your book does come out however and becomes the holy script of child rearing we will still have the spectre of parents without your tools to use, whether you consider their lack of tools an excuse or not..
Spock's big problem is that he left no room for children who are new to being expected to behave, he starts out from birth (as you should) and goes from there, it is too hard to implement his teachings in a child who has never been expected to behave (say a 5 year old who has been let to run wild)

Spock's big problem is that he left no room for children who are new to being expected to behave, he starts out from birth (as you should) and goes from there, it is too hard to implement his teachings in a child who has never been expected to behave (say a 5 year old who has been let to run wild)

Will your book address this oversight?

Which is it with way too many people who are spank-happy.
yep, Spanking, more dangerous than guns.

If they ask you to spank them... then spank away!

Exactly. My little brother looks up to me a lot. He knows when he disappoints me. I rarely need to spank him because he knows even before he sees the look in my eyes. He knows how much I hate having to do it.

I agree, and Anti-Social Darwinism made a very good guidline for when someone feels it is necessary to resort to spanking.

I would like to add to that list to make sure you have a talk with your child after the spanking and remind them that, although their behavior was unacceptable, you love them. Always remind them that they are loved no matter what.

But not in English. Sorry, it was open.

Ah, so not only do you know the difference between reinforcement and punishment, but the difference between positive and negative?
You're right. It was open, and now I'm terribly embarrassed for making such a n00b error. I didn't pay attention in English. Didn't need to. Maybe I should have paid attention in Health class, though, when they taught the value of a good night's sleep.

I do indeed. We never really covered one of the negatives, but I read that bit independently.

Will your book address this oversight?
it does, my book works from the assumption that you have tried everything else and that nothing is working, not even spanking. It's not really a "this is how you raise a perfect kid" book, but more of a "this is how to help your child succeed" book.

You can use it's advice from the begining, but most people have tried other things, and my approach can work at any age, if you are honest with the child and consistent in your expectations.

If they ask you to spank them... then spank away!
unfortunatly, most of those that do ask to be spanked usually must pay for that privilage... *cough* or so I've heard.

it does, my book works from the assumption that you have tried everything else and that nothing is working, not even spanking. It's not really a "this is how you raise a perfect kid" book, but more of a "this is how to help your child succeed" book.

You can use it's advice from the begining, but most people have tried other things, and my approach can work at any age, if you are honest with the child and consistent in your expectations.
<.<

>.>

Who's publishing it? Company that is...

one day, I will ask my mother if she ever regrets introducing me to Fantasy and Sci Fi Books. :)
I couldn't ask my mother that. She never did. I introduced myself, and we've been good friends ever since.

I couldn't ask my mother that. She never did. I introduced myself, and we've been good friends ever since.
She gave me Susan Coopers "Dark is Rising" series... when I was three.


I gotta get me my own set of those books. :(

Remind me to bother you when mine is out! Sci-fi/fantasy mix. :cool:
??? sorry, don't understand.... too tired...

Are you suggesting that discipline is genetic in nature rather than learned behavior?
No, not at all! I'm suggesting the discipline should begin immediately. There isn't really anything a baby can do wrong, but it's something to keep in mind as the child begins to mature.

<.<

>.>

Who's publishing it? Company that is...
I am not at liberty to say. ;)

If they ask you to spank them... then spank away!

Mother: LOOK WHAT I FOUND UNDER JUNIORS MATTRESS! (holds out B&D&S&M magazine)

Father: (takes mag and idly thumbs through it)

Mother: WELL!?!?!?!? What are you going to DO about it???

Father: hmmmmm (pensive for a moment) Well I dont think we should spank him.

No, not at all! I'm suggesting the discipline should begin immediately. There isn't really anything a baby can do wrong, but it's something to keep in mind as the child begins to mature.
positive reinforcement can begin very early, and that should be IMO the basis for all discipline.

??? sorry, don't understand.... too tired...
SHE WANTS YOU TO LEND HER SCI FI/FANTASY BOOKS WHEN SHE RUNS OUT!!
Does that help?:p

I am not at liberty to say. ;)
oh, ok. I just wondered because if you didn't have one yet, I know some people...

SHE WANTS YOU TO LEND HER SCI FI/FANTASY BOOKS WHEN SHE RUNS OUT!!
Does that help?:p
Ah... okeydokey... ;)

oh, ok. I just wondered because if you didn't have one yet, I know some people...
they are putting it together right now, I will receive an edited edition in September to look through, and back and forth and such is life.

do you know anyone who publishes fiction? I have a novel or two hanging around, but my publisher is non-fiction only. :( they have some connections with a sister co. but I am too busy with this one to worry about the others right now.

they are putting it together right now, I will receive an edited edition in September to look through, and back and forth and such is life.

do you know anyone who publishes fiction? I have a novel or two hanging around, but my publisher is non-fiction only. :( they have some connections with a sister co. but I am too busy with this one to worry about the others right now.
I'll make inquires... ;)

I agree, and Anti-Social Darwinism made a very good guidline for when someone feels it is necessary to resort to spanking.

I would like to add to that list to make sure you have a talk with your child after the spanking and remind them that, although their behavior was unacceptable, you love them. Always remind them that they are loved no matter what.
Of course. I never implement any punisment without a disappointed chat. It's important to reinforce the notion that you really do care about them, and that's why you don't like what they did. That's what they see as wrong.

She gave me Susan Coopers "Dark is Rising" series... when I was three.


I gotta get me my own set of those books. :(
Mine took me to the library to pick out my own novels. I felt so special sitting through pre-school reading full-length novels and novelettes while everyone else was reading See Spot Run.:cool:

Yeah, I've got quite a number of books to get.

positive reinforcement can begin very early, and that should be IMO the basis for all discipline.
I concur. It's much more effective. And it gives them the greater capacity for empathy later in life. They aren't focused on how to avoid their own pain.

Ah... okeydokey... ;)
Glad to be of service.:D

I'll make inquires... ;)
Very smooth and nonchalant.

positive reinforcement can begin very early, and that should be IMO the basis for all discipline.I concur. It's much more effective. And it gives them the greater capacity for empathy later in life. They aren't focused on how to avoid their own pain.now here's a question... do you reward for good behavior and favorable results. say like getting straight A's in school. (or in Smunkee's case, on a test.) and how would you reward them?

now here's a question... do you reward for good behavior and favorable results. say like getting straight A's in school. (or in Smunkee's case, on a test.) and how would you reward them?
I'd keep it non-material and reward them with pride and approval. I find that treating them with affection would make them better people. Might surprise them with a little something now and then like ice cream. They're four now, so they're easy to please. But nothing too regular or consistent in that regard. I'd place the emphasis on accomplishment, let them know I thought what they did was a good thing, placing greater stress on our relationship rather than the reward itself.

I'd keep it non-material and reward them with pride and approval. I find that treating them with affection would make them better people. Might surprise them with a little something now and then like ice cream. They're four now, so they're easy to please. But nothing too regular or consistent in that regard. I'd place the emphasis on accomplishment, let them know I thought what they did was a good thing, placing greater stress on our relationship rather than the reward itself.
ahh... interesting.

now, I don't mean this to be critisim, nor an argument against what you're doing but from past posts, I find what I am seeing rather interesting.

Some accuse spanking of causing fear of the punnishment to be instilled into the child. Smunkee asked weather the child was behaving because they wanted to or because they were afraid to misbehave and thus "get Hurt.'

by using such rewards and methods of punnishment (I'm dissappointed in you), are you also not placing a fear of parental "Disapproval" or even a fear of "rejection from the parents" into your children. you can say that "Mommy and Daddy will still love you no matter what" but the fact that one is using "Dissapointment" to show when wrong is done, or "approval" to reinforce good behavior in fact more damaging then fear of physical abuse?

as one said, isn't it damaging to the child to say "I love you," then smack the child.... can't the same be said when one says "I Love you, but I'm very, very dissappointed in you"

I can hear the Eyes rolling on this one. so I beg you, please keep an open mind.

at some point, even if parents still "Spank" their children, they will stop mainly because that child will be too big to be spanked physically, or the child will find that such pain no longer "hurts". However, one does not outgrow psychological scarring or conditioning as easily.

for instance, yes a personal Antecidotent story, so please bear with me Smunkee... :fluffle:

I have a friend who can be described as a gentle Giant. we are talking a very large, well muscled man. he works in security for many companies and he is one you really don't want to anger. (for the years that I've known him, I can only recall once when he actually showed a temper, and I was glad it wasn't towards me.) he's a nice person really, just one that will take no Bullshit from no one.

all that changes when his mother comes around. I've seen this man acutally turn into a mouse with his mother around. (and we are talking an old woman less than half his size.) the psychological hold that this woman has on him is frightening to behold. he actually fears her disapproval while at the same time wants to be out from under her thumb.

(there was a time where the mother threatened an arrainged marriage for him, but he finally managed to run and hide from her... by using his sister as a shield, she lives on the continental US. and she shows no fear of the mother, so I don't think his conditioning is physical.)

while I've never heard any stories of any physcial abuse from him or his close friends and family, I do theorize, again without proof, that any discipline done is strickly approval/disaproval.

I wonder if a bond built only on "Approval/Disapointment" can also be abused to the point of "Breaking Spirits" and why there really isn't any study on such mental cruelty like there is for physical abuse/spanking.


again, please note, I am not saying that physcial punnishments are better, or that such conditioning is "normal" but wondering, like any form of punnishiments, it can be taken too far, and if there are any studies done on such mental conditioning.

I'd like to add this to the guidelines:

Children under 4 are generally too small to spank without risk of injury. They're still basically infants and more can be accomplished with firmness, established routines, and deflection than with corporal punishment.

ahh... interesting.

now, I don't mean this to be critisim, nor an argument against what you're doing but from past posts, I find what I am seeing rather interesting.

Some accuse spanking of causing fear of the punnishment to be instilled into the child. Smunkee asked weather the child was behaving because they wanted to or because they were afraid to misbehave and thus "get Hurt.'

by using such rewards and methods of punnishment (I'm dissappointed in you), are you also not placing a fear of parental "Disapproval" or even a fear of "rejection from the parents" into your children. you can say that "Mommy and Daddy will still love you no matter what" but the fact that one is using "Dissapointment" to show when wrong is done, or "approval" to reinforce good behavior in fact more damaging then fear of physical abuse?

as one said, isn't it damaging to the child to say "I love you," then smack the child.... can't the same be said when one says "I Love you, but I'm very, very dissappointed in you"

I can hear the Eyes rolling on this one. so I beg you, please keep an open mind.

at some point, even if parents still "Spank" their children, they will stop mainly because that child will be too big to be spanked physically, or the child will find that such pain no longer "hurts". However, one does not outgrow psychological scarring or conditioning as easily.

for instance, yes a personal Antecidotent story, so please bear with me Smunkee... :fluffle:

I have a friend who can be described as a gentle Giant. we are talking a very large, well muscled man. he works in security for many companies and he is one you really don't want to anger. (for the years that I've known him, I can only recall once when he actually showed a temper, and I was glad it wasn't towards me.) he's a nice person really, just one that will take no Bullshit from no one.

all that changes when his mother comes around. I've seen this man acutally turn into a mouse with his mother around. (and we are talking an old woman less than half his size.) the psychological hold that this woman has on him is frightening to behold. he actually fears her disapproval while at the same time wants to be out from under her thumb.

(there was a time where the mother threatened an arrainged marriage for him, but he finally managed to run and hide from her... by using his sister as a shield, she lives on the continental US. and she shows no fear of the mother, so I don't think his conditioning is physical.)

while I've never heard any stories of any physcial abuse from him or his close friends and family, I do theorize, again without proof, that any discipline done is strickly approval/disaproval.

I wonder if a bond built only on "Approval/Disapointment" can also be abused to the point of "Breaking Spirits" and why there really isn't any study on such mental cruelty like there is for physical abuse/spanking.


again, please note, I am not saying that physcial punnishments are better, or that such conditioning is "normal" but wondering, like any form of punnishiments, it can be taken too far, and if there are any studies done on such mental conditioning.
No, no eye-rolling there. It's all valid discussion. I suppose we could ignore the minor detail that I'm not acutally the parent. The spanking is really only the very last resort when they clearly aren't getting the message. I can see it in their eyes and eager postures. They know they're going to do something like it again really soon and laugh while they do it. When they don't heed words, a quick swat gets their attention, then they listen.

It is true that either method can be overdone, but I think a moderate approach is best. The point of discipline isn't to put a leash on the child but to teach him to consider all the consequences of his behaviors and to realize he has control over the decisions that cause those results.

Spankings yes thrashings no.
A few Red Welts never hurt anyone.

Spankings yes thrashings no.
A few Red Welts never hurt anyone.
Yes, they did, but how much is really the question. Moderation is the key....*thinks Katghanistan* No! Not that moderation!:p

Someone would like me to post for her in absentia: "nothing wrong with a good spanking. It's how I control all my men" [quoted directly from MSN]

Yes, they did, but how much is really the question. Moderation is the key....*thinks Katghanistan* No! Not that moderation!:p
Well if they learn that pain equals bad and so not do the bd things that brings pain then bravo.

Well if they learn that pain equals bad and so not do the bd things that brings pain then bravo.
Ah, but then they've got the constant notion of fear in there, which I find to be debilitating.

Ah, but then they've got the constant notion of fear in there, which I find to be debilitating.
You are debilitated by other PEOPLES fear?

And I'm still waiting for suggestions of other disciplinary tools, both at home and at school.
I think you already know of many, you've just decided you don't think they work or you don't want to use them.

My parents usually explained things to me, as opposed to issuing dictates. For instance, when I got old enough to start asking for desert before my dinner, they explained why certain foods are good for a growing child and others are not. This was particularly effective because they included child-sized humor; my mom told me about how good food helps your body grow, including your guts (Ewwww!! Giggle!). Then, whenever I would bitch about having to eat good food, my mom or dad would ask me, "Don't you want to grow great big slimey GUTS?" And, of course, being 5 years old, I was totally tickled by the idea of having great big slimey guts, so I'd eat the damn peas.

They also realized that one of the main reasons kids will act out is because kids feel that they have no control over their lives. Which is pretty much true, but you can help kids FEEL more in control without sacrificing your authority as a parent. When bedtime was approaching, my parents would tell me "five more minutes," and would give me a watch so that I could tell the time as the five minutes passed. They found that I would voluntarily come to them and announce when the time was up, as opposed to the screaming fights that would happen if they simply said, "Bedtime! Go to bed now."

Of course, those are just some things that worked with me. Different kids will respond to different tactics. The key is that these are your kids, and you're at least theoretically supposed to be interested in figuring them out and doing what is best for them. Don't just jump on the first quick-fix tactic that somebody drops into your lap.

It's late in the thread, so while I try to catch up, I'll explaining my choice:

I was disciplined with "dissapointment." My parents suffered for every thing I did wrong, and made it pretty plain to me. They stopped being nice, and that hurt.

Consequently, I'm a bleeding-heart liberal who thinks of others before I think of my own interests.

I call that a good result. Voted 4: Not hit, don't believe in hitting.

studies are verifiable, "real life" is not verifiable on an internet forum.

all of the "I got spanked and I turned out fine" and the "I can tell a kid that wasn't spanked because they are bad" is bullshit and there is no scientific basis to it, basically you are talking out of your ass.
I don't know if I'd say it's "talking out your ass," as much as it's just a case of anecdotal evidence totally balancing out.

For instance, I honestly believe that a great many of the good qualities I possess as an adult would not exist if my parents had persisted in physically diciplining me. I know, with absolute certainty, that I would have had MORE dicipline problems if my father continued hitting me. My parents decided to make our family into one where physical force was never used to dicipline, and I turned out pretty damn good (at least on paper ;)).

Does this count as "evidence" that spanking is bad? Nope. It counts as evidence that spanking is not necessary to rear a child well. It counts as evidence that at least some children will benefit from an environment in which physical force is not used to dicipline. But it can't tell you whether or not ALL spanking is harmful, or whether or not ALL children do better in spank-free environments.

The anecdotes are interesting, but all they really tell us is about the person telling the anecdote.

You have to get to them in their infancy. That's when they learn to care. If they're concerned about disappointing you as they grow older, they'll be much less likely to do things that would, in fact disappoint you. But I find a lot of young people these days don't care. They never have. Their parents never made them feel that caring about others was beneficial.
Yeah, this much I really agree with. The funny thing was, spanking and hitting was gradually eating away at how much I cared. My parents, particularly my father, became my enemies. They were the people who hurt me, and I was slowly losing interest in making them happy or proud of me. I actually remember having these feelings...they are some of my earliest memories.

For me, stopping the physical punishment saved my relationship with my parents, and probably "saved my life" in terms of keeping me from becoming a total deliquent. Because they stopped hitting me, my parents managed to preserve our bond and our relationship. Because we still had that bond, I still urgently wanted to please my parents and make them proud of me. That drive is what pushed me to excell through much of my childhood, and it's what stopped me from doing a whole lot of things that would probably have gotten me in big trouble. I was a goody-two-shoes for most of my young life, and I chalk it up mostly to my desire to please my parents.

Maybe some kids want to please their parents MORE if their parents hit them. I don't know how other people's heads work. All I know is that when my parents hit me, it made me want to hurt them back. It made me want to do things that would make them angry or sad, not things that would make them happy or proud of me. Maybe I was just a spiteful little runt. :) Could be.

She gave me Susan Coopers "Dark is Rising" series... when I was three.


I gotta get me my own set of those books. :(
My dad gave me one of Piers Anthony's books when I was 5, and I read it until the covers dropped off. :)

Nothing speaks as loudly as the results of the poll so far. Even given that those of us who were smacked might have stronger feelings about it, and respond disproptionately:

More than half the respondents were smacked, and think it's a good strategy.
Two of us, about two percent, were not smacked, but think it's a good strategy.

I think this shows clearly that physical punishment could be eliminated in a generation, by outlawing it.

This is inherited behaviour. Great poll, btw.

EDIT: at time of posting, the figures were 55 / 24 / 2 / 20

You are debilitated by other PEOPLES fear?
No. I find their fear debilitating for them.

I think you already know of many, you've just decided you don't think they work or you don't want to use them.

My parents usually explained things to me, as opposed to issuing dictates. For instance, when I got old enough to start asking for desert before my dinner, they explained why certain foods are good for a growing child and others are not. This was particularly effective because they included child-sized humor; my mom told me about how good food helps your body grow, including your guts (Ewwww!! Giggle!). Then, whenever I would bitch about having to eat good food, my mom or dad would ask me, "Don't you want to grow great big slimey GUTS?" And, of course, being 5 years old, I was totally tickled by the idea of having great big slimey guts, so I'd eat the damn peas.

They also realized that one of the main reasons kids will act out is because kids feel that they have no control over their lives. Which is pretty much true, but you can help kids FEEL more in control without sacrificing your authority as a parent. When bedtime was approaching, my parents would tell me "five more minutes," and would give me a watch so that I could tell the time as the five minutes passed. They found that I would voluntarily come to them and announce when the time was up, as opposed to the screaming fights that would happen if they simply said, "Bedtime! Go to bed now."

Of course, those are just some things that worked with me. Different kids will respond to different tactics. The key is that these are your kids, and you're at least theoretically supposed to be interested in figuring them out and doing what is best for them. Don't just jump on the first quick-fix tactic that somebody drops into your lap.
Yeah, we don't use a watch, but I'll tell them to go look at the clock to see for themselves when it's bed time. If they don't happen to look every two minutes, I'll hint at it by asking them to. Works like a charm. Well, not my charm. That's reserved for special occasions....but you get the idea.

No. I find their fear debilitating for them.
Unless they don't seem to understand when something is wrong they shouldn't have a problem therefore you shouldn't and if they are constantly getting things wrong is it really worth you worrying about?

For instance, I honestly believe that a great many of the good qualities I possess as an adult would not exist if my parents had persisted in physically diciplining me. I know, with absolute certainty, that I would have had MORE dicipline problems if my father continued hitting me. My parents decided to make our family into one where physical force was never used to dicipline, and I turned out pretty damn good (at least on paper ;)).

Dunno about paper, but I like the soft copy.;):p

Yeah, this much I really agree with. The funny thing was, spanking and hitting was gradually eating away at how much I cared. My parents, particularly my father, became my enemies. They were the people who hurt me, and I was slowly losing interest in making them happy or proud of me. I actually remember having these feelings...they are some of my earliest memories.

For me, stopping the physical punishment saved my relationship with my parents, and probably "saved my life" in terms of keeping me from becoming a total deliquent. Because they stopped hitting me, my parents managed to preserve our bond and our relationship. Because we still had that bond, I still urgently wanted to please my parents and make them proud of me. That drive is what pushed me to excell through much of my childhood, and it's what stopped me from doing a whole lot of things that would probably have gotten me in big trouble. I was a goody-two-shoes for most of my young life, and I chalk it up mostly to my desire to please my parents.

Maybe some kids want to please their parents MORE if their parents hit them. I don't know how other people's heads work. All I know is that when my parents hit me, it made me want to hurt them back. It made me want to do things that would make them angry or sad, not things that would make them happy or proud of me. Maybe I was just a spiteful little runt. :) Could be.
I was spiteful as well, but some children just get depressed. I was fortunate that my mother gave up on the physical punishment. At some point she just realized that I didn't really care about it anymore. It wasn't stopping me from doing anything. I barely felt it anymore.

Yeah, we don't use a watch, but I'll tell them to go look at the clock to see for themselves when it's bed time. If they don't happen to look every two minutes, I'll hint at it by asking them to. Works like a charm. Well, not my charm. That's reserved for special occasions....but you get the idea.

Despite your alarming name, you sound like a good parent. :)
Oh, and you're very childish sometimes. Perhaps that's not a bad thing either.

I was spiteful as well, but some children just get depressed. I was fortunate that my mother gave up on the physical punishment. At some point she just realized that I didn't really care about it anymore. It wasn't stopping me from doing anything. I barely felt it anymore.
I think physical punishment isn't a good tool for dicipline because of the escalation that is required.

For me, spankings remained effective because of the shock value; after our "family overhaul," I think I might have been spanked a grand total of three times for the entire rest of my childhood. My little brother may have received half a dozens spankings in his lifetime. The shock of having one of our parents strike us was enough to jerk us out of a tantrum, if only because we were speechless with surprise. They never had to strike us very hard, just enough to sting a little...or even just enough to make a loud noise (you can do this without it even hurting, depending on what pants the kid has on).

However, when my father was still hitting me, it was already starting to escalate dangerously. I learned that one swat didn't hurt so bad, so one swat wouldn't shut me up. So it had to be two swats. Then three. Pretty soon, you get to a point where you'd have to injure the kid before they'd respond to the beating.

I think the danger of spanking is that too many parents rely upon it. They've got nothing else if spanking fails, except for more spanking. The kid is going to get too big to be spanked. Eventually, they're going to be more physically strong than you are. Then what? You're going to HAVE to have some other form of dicipline, eventually, so why wait?

Unless they don't seem to understand when something is wrong they shouldn't have a problem therefore you shouldn't and if they are constantly getting things wrong is it really worth you worrying about?
That's not the point. They constantly think of what's bad because they've become so focused on avoiding the "pain" of punishment instead of thinking about the possibilities. That's where positive reinforcement has you beaten: the person isn't weighted down with constant negativity.

Dunno about paper, but I like the soft copy.;):p
*Blush*

Shucks. :)

Unless they don't seem to understand when something is wrong they shouldn't have a problem therefore you shouldn't and if they are constantly getting things wrong is it really worth you worrying about?
Theoretical question:

If it were possible to effectively dicipline your children without making them fear you, would you want to do that?

That's not the point. They constantly think of what's bad because they've become so focused on avoiding the "pain" of punishment instead of thinking about the possibilities.
And, remember, this can actually lead to worse behavior, because you've created kids who simply fear the punishment. What they want to do is avoid getting CAUGHT. That doesn't necessarily mean they want to stop being naughty.

When I was little, hitting made me want to break the rules even more, as long as I could figure out how to avoid being caught.

Despite your alarming name, you sound like a good parent. :)
Oh, and you're very childish sometimes. Perhaps that's not a bad thing either.
Heh, I'm not a parent. I'm an older brother.:p But I am the "social father" for them, so close enough.
Of course I'm childish. Can't fully appreciate life without a bit of childishness. Keeps things balanced.

I still get smacked by my mum, and I'm an adult...:( :D

I think physical punishment isn't a good tool for dicipline because of the escalation that is required.

For me, spankings remained effective because of the shock value; after our "family overhaul," I think I might have been spanked a grand total of three times for the entire rest of my childhood. My little brother may have received half a dozens spankings in his lifetime. The shock of having one of our parents strike us was enough to jerk us out of a tantrum, if only because we were speechless with surprise. They never had to strike us very hard, just enough to sting a little...or even just enough to make a loud noise (you can do this without it even hurting, depending on what pants the kid has on).

However, when my father was still hitting me, it was already starting to escalate dangerously. I learned that one swat didn't hurt so bad, so one swat wouldn't shut me up. So it had to be two swats. Then three. Pretty soon, you get to a point where you'd have to injure the kid before they'd respond to the beating.

I think the danger of spanking is that too many parents rely upon it. They've got nothing else if spanking fails, except for more spanking. The kid is going to get too big to be spanked. Eventually, they're going to be more physically strong than you are. Then what? You're going to HAVE to have some other form of dicipline, eventually, so why wait?
True. That's all I use spankings for, just to get their attention. It's no good otherwise. They just start screaming. All the fear makes it too confusing for them to really understand what's happening, even if there is some attempt at lecture afterward.

*Blush*

Shucks. :)
It's the thinking. Gets me every time.:)

Theoretical question:

If it were possible to effectively dicipline your children without making them fear you, would you want to do that?
The Question has to be Theoretical as i don't have a child that i know of...

Yes, the aim isn't for me to be feared by 'this' child but certainly to understand they have done something wrong.

And, remember, this can actually lead to worse behavior, because you've created kids who simply fear the punishment. What they want to do is avoid getting CAUGHT. That doesn't necessarily mean they want to stop being naughty.

When I was little, hitting made me want to break the rules even more, as long as I could figure out how to avoid being caught.
I learned very early on how to lie well and evade authority. Didn't really use my skills, but that's not the point. A lot of children do. I was just...odd.

I still get smacked by my mum, and I'm an adult...:( :D
I'd imagine you would be doing all the smacking.;)

I still get smacked by my mum, and I'm an adult...:( :D
Works differently for special children.:p

I'd imagine you would be doing all the smacking.;)
What do you mean by that?! :eek:

Despite your alarming name, you sound like a good parent. :)
Oh, and you're very childish sometimes. Perhaps that's not a bad thing either.
And what's so alarming about my name?:(

And what's so alarming about my name?:(

Your name? "Fascist Dominion?" What isn't alarming about it?
:)

Your name? "Fascist Dominion?" What isn't alarming about it?
:)
I rather like it....Has a nice, ominous tone, methinks.:D

now here's a question... do you reward for good behavior and favorable results. say like getting straight A's in school. (or in Smunkee's case, on a test.) and how would you reward them?
I reward good behavior with privaledges, and positive feedback. Bad behavior means that they do not earn their priveleges.

I do not do the "I am disappointed in you" thing because I believe it amounts to emotional manipulation, in my house we don't try to manipulate anyone by any means (physical, emotional, ect.) You are responsible for your own actions, you choose your own mode of behavior, the consequences imposed are just what happens when that behavior is chosen.

For example, my daughter is about to wake up, she will make her bed, brush her teeth, get dressed and come to the breakfast table. I will fix her some breakfast and she will be polite, when she is done she will rinse out her plate and clean up after herself. Because she does all of this, she gains access to the computer to check her email. If she wakes up in a bad mood and doesn't behave in a respectful and appropriate way, she doesn't get to check her email.

There is no difference in the way I treat her one way or the other, she knows I always love her because I am always loving to her. She also knows that her actions have a direct affect on how the rest of her day goes. There are no "special" rewards in my house as in "if you are really good this week I will take you to ice cream" because I have no reason to bribe her, imo that's manipulation. She knows if she behaves in an acceptable manner and asks to go for ice cream I really have no reason to say "no".

The three year old is not able to understand the direct relationship between her actions and the consequences without physical proof, so she is on the point system, she gets a bead or two for good behavior and some taken away for unacceptable behavior, she uses the beads to "buy" time. She does the same morning routine, with help brushing her teeth and help cleaning up after herself (too short to reach the sink, needs a step stool and supervision) for this she earns 10 beads, for 10 beads she can buy 15 minutes of computer time. If she doesn't make her bed, I deduct 2 beads, she must earn them some other way before she can check her email.

I used to get spanked, now as a 16 year old much larger than the rest of my family, the fury from getting spanked has pushed me very close to beating the crap out of my family

I used to get spanked, now as a 16 year old much larger than the rest of my family, the fury from getting spanked has pushed me very close to beating the crap out of my family

Firstly: as a new poster, none of us can know if this is really you. So I just hope you aren't messing about, to have a laugh at our "politically correct" responses.

Second: Don't do that. I've had "the crap beaten out of me" for things I did wrong (in adulthood) and it did nothing of the sort. That beat it further into me, if anything. "You can't beat me down, I must be right because Everybody Hates Me, etc, etc, BS, BS." Sweet reason doesn't always work, but it does less harm than Beating The Crap Out Of.

Third: You are at or near legal age of responsibility. If there's something really wrong going on in your family, use your legal rights. Use the law.

Unless they don't seem to understand when something is wrong they shouldn't have a problem therefore you shouldn't and if they are constantly getting things wrong is it really worth you worrying about?That's not the point. They constantly think of what's bad because they've become so focused on avoiding the "pain" of punishment instead of thinking about the possibilities. That's where positive reinforcement has you beaten: the person isn't weighted down with constant negativity.
No it is the point because a spank doesnt mena you can't explain what they have done wrong.

What do you mean by that?! :eek:
I mena i might as well :fluffle: all i want, i aint no bench warmer or in the Bull pen only to be called up when the Starter aint around!:p

Pro-spanking/violance people still leading in the poll? I thought they'd come around after reading quoted studies about even the mildest spank may lead to negative consequences. But I guess it's because most forumers are from USA and spanking is very common there (the article I quoted says 90% of the American parents).
Meanwhie, in our societies where violence/crime is much less than in USA:


Nordics first to ban corporal punishment on children
The Nordic countries were the first nations in the world to ban corporal punishment of children. Reasoning and talking is an essential part of education in Nordic society, explains Ulla Holmberg

Corporal punishment of children illegal in Nordic countries

Corporal punishment of children by their parents is not legal in the Nordic countries. Nordic societies commonly agree that children are better educated with words than with violence. Teaching through beating and pain is just not part of our values as a society. I decided after I returned from a week's holiday abroad that this social achievement was worth being remembered.

I had never seen anyone hitting or smacking children before. I was shocked to see a father shouting and smacking his little boy in public. No one in the street stopped to prevent this or to say something. I found that very disturbing and have thought many times about what I saw there. Would that same father who slapped his little boy dare to turn next to his elder grandmother or to his wife? Can you hit a child because he does something you don't like?

My parents have never put a hand on me, and my grandparents have never put a hand on my parents. While doing some research for this article, I learned that Sweden had first banned corporal punishment of children in schools in 1927 and later introduced a comprehensive ban by law in 1979. The example set by Sweden was soon followed by the rest of the Nordic countries and by the United Nations ten years later in the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.


The Swedish corporal punishment ban of 1979

Sweden was the first country in the world to ban all corporal punishment of children. In 1979, the Swedish Parliament voted to prohibit corporal punishment, or the "right" of parents to chastise their children. Swedish Member of Parliament Sixten Pettersson famously stated "In a free democracy like our own, we use words as arguments, not blows. We talk to people and do not beat them. If we can't convince our children with words, we shall never convince them with violence".

The 1979 ban was the final result of half a century of education and legal progress on the issue of child abuse in Sweden. Corporal punishment had actually been banned in Swedish grammar schools as early as in 1927, and in elementary schools later on since 1958.

Finland was the next country to follow Sweden's legislative steps with a similar law in 1984 against "corporal punishment or humiliation" of children. Denmark and Norway passed similar regulations in 1986 and 1987 respectively, and other countries soon started following the Nordic way. In 1989, the United Nations approved the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, ten years after the Swedish corporal punishment ban was passed.

The 1979 Swedish ban was added on to the Parenthood and Guardianship Code, which forbids degrading treatment and physical punishment: "Children are entitled to care, security and a good upbringing. Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment".


"Can you bring up children without smacking and spanking?"

In 1979, the Swedish Government sent a booklet to every family, school and daycare centre in Sweden. The booklet was entitled "Can you bring up children successfully without smacking and spanking?" and explained the new legislation, the anti-spanking ban, and discussed how to bring up children with other methods than physical punishment. It emphasised that corporal punishment can cause both physical and psychological harm, and that there are other ways than violence for parents to express their anger, frustration, or lack of patience.

Today, it is commonly agreed by educators that corporal punishment is an ineffective discipline strategy and that it can even be dangerous because it teaches violence as a solution to problems. Children imitate what they see adults doing: the more a child is hit, the more likely it is that the child, when an adult, will hit his or her children or spouse. Adults who were hit as children are more likely to be depressed or violent themselves. Corporal punishment most often produces in its victims anger, resentment, and low self-esteem. Children who get spanked regularly are more likely to lie, to be disobedient at school, to bully others, or to show less remorse for wrongdoing. Children who are spanked perform poorly on school tasks compared to other children.

Now, a quarter of a century after the Swedish Parliament voted against hitting children, attitudes towards corporal punishment show that less than 10% of the people living in Sweden defend corporal punishment of children. According to the Swedish Institute for Statistics, younger generations are much less in favour of using physical punishment than elder generations.

In an average Nordic home, patience and cooperation are the basis upon which children are educated. Parents understand that children are young: they need to play, they need to learn all the time. They are not adults but they are respected like adults. Parents talk and reason with their children in an age-appropriate way. Children are tought to listen, to speak properly, to compromise, to accept differences, and to show trust. Nordic children are also encouraged and given responsibilities from an early age. Participation in decision making and in setting rules helps children to build confidence, accomplishment, and sense of responsibility.


The Children Ombudsman in the Nordic countries

In the Nordic countries, children and young people up to the age of 18 have their own Ombudsman. The Ombudsman safeguards the rights of children and young people as set forth in the United Nations' Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Norway was the first country in the world to have an Ombudsman with powers to protect children and their rights. After the creation of the Norwegian Barneombudet in 1981, Sweden created their Barnombudsmannen in 1993, Denmark followed with the Council for Children's Rights in 1994, and Iceland established the Umboðsmaður Barna in 1995. In Finland, the NGO "Mannerheim League for Child Welfare" maintains a Children's Ombudsman Office since 1981, although the league has been continuously active since 1920.

The different Nordic Ombudsmen for Children work to improve legislation affecting children's welfare, participate in public debates, report to the public and to their own Government on the situation of their children and young people, and maintain regular contact with children and young people through councils and visits to schools and youth clubs. The Ombudsman for Children shall also act immediately if information is received regarding a child being abused at home. Nordic children can get in touch with their own Ombudsman by letter, phone and through their website.

Besides domestic work at home, the five Nordic Ombudsmen for Children are also actively involved in projects of international cooperation. At a European level, the Ombudsmen share strategies and coordinate actions at the ENOC - The European Network of Ombudsmen for Children, created in 1997 in Trondheim, Norway. On a wider international perspective, the Ombudsmen follow the work of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child and stay active in other cooperation networks, like is the case of the Swedish Children's Ombudsman, which organises international courses on human rights since 1998 for participants from different countries as far away as Latin America, Africa and Asia.



http://www.scandinavica.com/culture/society/children.htm

<snip>



Congrats, Smunkeeville. You sound like a very good parent.

Nordligmark,

Spanking is ok and the studies had refutes all throughout the thread.

Nordligmark,

Spanking is ok and the studies had refutes all throughout the thread.

Noone or no link refuted these:

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/14/nfm.spanking/

http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0405/Sept13_04/24.shtml

*snipo*

I see you don't pay attention to posts that disagree with you.

Nothing speaks as loudly as the results of the poll so far.

Like every poll or study on this topic, it utterly fails to distinguish between spankings and abuse.

Shouting, spanking and certainly abuse are signs of weakness. Resorting to these when raising a child, or even interacting with an adult, means you admit you can't handle the situation by using ordinary means. Sooner or later, this vulnerability will be exploited and you'll be in a world of terror. Take it from a teacher (teens age 12-16).

Wanna raise kids? Listen to Deep Kimchi, he speaks wise words (and types them for us to read too!)

i.ve been a very bad boy and my nanny must spank me ...nanny of course must be 5'11 blonde and wear spike heels ..female...prefer leather bustier..pm me ...I have been very very bad .

I reward good behavior with privaledges, and positive feedback. Bad behavior means that they do not earn their priveleges.

I do not do the "I am disappointed in you" thing because I believe it amounts to emotional manipulation, in my house we don't try to manipulate anyone by any means (physical, emotional, ect.) You are responsible for your own actions, you choose your own mode of behavior, the consequences imposed are just what happens when that behavior is chosen.

For example, my daughter is about to wake up, she will make her bed, brush her teeth, get dressed and come to the breakfast table. I will fix her some breakfast and she will be polite, when she is done she will rinse out her plate and clean up after herself. Because she does all of this, she gains access to the computer to check her email. If she wakes up in a bad mood and doesn't behave in a respectful and appropriate way, she doesn't get to check her email.

There is no difference in the way I treat her one way or the other, she knows I always love her because I am always loving to her. She also knows that her actions have a direct affect on how the rest of her day goes. There are no "special" rewards in my house as in "if you are really good this week I will take you to ice cream" because I have no reason to bribe her, imo that's manipulation. She knows if she behaves in an acceptable manner and asks to go for ice cream I really have no reason to say "no".

The three year old is not able to understand the direct relationship between her actions and the consequences without physical proof, so she is on the point system, she gets a bead or two for good behavior and some taken away for unacceptable behavior, she uses the beads to "buy" time. She does the same morning routine, with help brushing her teeth and help cleaning up after herself (too short to reach the sink, needs a step stool and supervision) for this she earns 10 beads, for 10 beads she can buy 15 minutes of computer time. If she doesn't make her bed, I deduct 2 beads, she must earn them some other way before she can check her email.
Ah, the disappointment bit. That's not something that should be done, as you said, because it does amount to emotional manipulation, but it is healthy to be disappointed, just not to use that as a tool for behavioral modification.

I reward good behavior with privaledges, and positive feedback. Bad behavior means that they do not earn their priveleges.

I do not do the "I am disappointed in you" thing because I believe it amounts to emotional manipulation, in my house we don't try to manipulate anyone by any means (physical, emotional, ect.) You are responsible for your own actions, you choose your own mode of behavior, the consequences imposed are just what happens when that behavior is chosen.

For example, my daughter is about to wake up, she will make her bed, brush her teeth, get dressed and come to the breakfast table. I will fix her some breakfast and she will be polite, when she is done she will rinse out her plate and clean up after herself. Because she does all of this, she gains access to the computer to check her email. If she wakes up in a bad mood and doesn't behave in a respectful and appropriate way, she doesn't get to check her email.

There is no difference in the way I treat her one way or the other, she knows I always love her because I am always loving to her. She also knows that her actions have a direct affect on how the rest of her day goes. There are no "special" rewards in my house as in "if you are really good this week I will take you to ice cream" because I have no reason to bribe her, imo that's manipulation. She knows if she behaves in an acceptable manner and asks to go for ice cream I really have no reason to say "no".

The three year old is not able to understand the direct relationship between her actions and the consequences without physical proof, so she is on the point system, she gets a bead or two for good behavior and some taken away for unacceptable behavior, she uses the beads to "buy" time. She does the same morning routine, with help brushing her teeth and help cleaning up after herself (too short to reach the sink, needs a step stool and supervision) for this she earns 10 beads, for 10 beads she can buy 15 minutes of computer time. If she doesn't make her bed, I deduct 2 beads, she must earn them some other way before she can check her email.very innovative. and I am glad to see you are also not fostering any emotional control. (actually, I kinda figgured you wernt with your other threads about your oldest. :D )

but I have this question. Newt Gingrich gave a seminar about an Idea about how to get your children to study harder in school. your bead system sounds very similar to his. his theory was to pay them for each type of grade. for instance, A = $5 B = $3 C = $1 D = -2 F = -4. the reasoning being, that
1) in the real working world, Wages and Bonuses are tied to work effort and work results. do well on your projects, and you get a bonus or pay raise. don't do well and you either don't get a raise or you get fired.

2) Uses a reward system that the child can see and relate to.

3) it can be a starting point in teaching them good financial habits and responsibility

there were other points, it was a looong seminar and it was also a long time ago. but would you agree to this system... (looking at your "beads for good behavior" method.)

of course his plan was only for school... not for everyday things. :p

Do you think this is a good plan?

No it is the point because a spank doesnt mena you can't explain what they have done wrong.
Then you're wasting energy, and imparting that lasting negativity. Whether you explain it or not, the constant desire to escape pain is present, and still very much a hindrance.

Then you're wasting energy, and imparting that lasting negativity. Whether you explain it or not, the constant desire to escape pain is present, and still very much a hindrance.
but isn't that how Society is also conditining it's people. Think about it, why do you strive to obey the law, because it makes you feel good? or that you want to avoid going to jail and paying fines/restitution.

if the child knows that wrong behavior will get an unfavorable reward, the connection between pain/removal of privaledges, dissappointing Mommy and Daddy... et al. and the wrong/bad behavior will be made.

if you just punnish the child without informing them why they are being punnished, then all you will instill is fear.

very innovative. and I am glad to see you are also not fostering any emotional control. (actually, I kinda figgured you wernt with your other threads about your oldest. :D )

but I have this question. Newt Gingrich gave a seminar about an Idea about how to get your children to study harder in school. your bead system sounds very similar to his. his theory was to pay them for each type of grade. for instance, A = $5 B = $3 C = $1 D = -2 F = -4. the reasoning being, that
1) in the real working world, Wages and Bonuses are tied to work effort and work results. do well on your projects, and you get a bonus or pay raise. don't do well and you either don't get a raise or you get fired.

2) Uses a reward system that the child can see and relate to.

3) it can be a starting point in teaching them good financial habits and responsibility

there were other points, it was a looong seminar and it was also a long time ago. but would you agree to this system... (looking at your "beads for good behavior" method.)

of course his plan was only for school... not for everyday things. :p

Do you think this is a good plan?
I think it's a bad plan, at least as far as education goes. It brings the notion of material into an intellectual realm. I don't like them mingling. Disrupts the purity of a lust for knowledge, for understanding.

Nothing speaks as loudly as the results of the poll so far. Even given that those of us who were smacked might have stronger feelings about it, and respond disproptionately:

More than half the respondents were smacked, and think it's a good strategy.
Two of us, about two percent, were not smacked, but think it's a good strategy.

I think this shows clearly that physical punishment could be eliminated in a generation, by outlawing it.

This is inherited behaviour. Great poll, btw.

EDIT: at time of posting, the figures were 55 / 24 / 2 / 20

I think this is a disingenuous statement and the logic doesn't really follow. This poll shows clearly that people have different opinions on what child-rearing practices to use and that's all it shows.

To outlaw a tool based on unsupported opinions, would be disastrous. And studies about corporal punishment are, at best, inconclusive.

The whole point of child-rearing isn't whether or not you use corporal punishment, it's whether or not you raise children who are happy, well-adjusted, considerate of others, responsible, etc. You use the tools you have available and you use them appropriately and with consistency. Spanking (not beating) is a tool, some people use it, some don't. Children who have been spanked (mine included) have no more or less problems with hostile behavior than those who haven't been spanked. The ones who have problems are the ones who have received no discipline or erratic discipline and have not had it demonstrated that they were loved.

.

What do you do though if your youngest is screaming in Tescos over not being allowed something, sometimes a short sharp shock is sadly nessessary.

I think it's a bad plan, at least as far as education goes. It brings the notion of material into an intellectual realm. I don't like them mingling. Disrupts the purity of a lust for knowledge, for understanding.
and how many scientist and other intellecutals do you know actually refused Grants or Cash Prizes (the Nobel Peace Prize is with cash) for their acheivements?

I think this is a disingenuous statement and the logic doesn't really follow. This poll shows clearly that people have different opinions on what child-rearing practices to use and that's all it shows.

To outlaw a tool based on unsupported opinions, would be disastrous. And studies about corporal punishment are, at best, inconclusive.

The whole point of child-rearing isn't whether or not you use corporal punishment, it's whether or not you raise children who are happy, well-adjusted, considerate of others, responsible, etc. You use the tools you have available and you use them appropriately and with consistency. Spanking (not beating) is a tool, some people use it, some don't. Children who have been spanked (mine included) have no more or less problems with hostile behavior than those who haven't been spanked. The ones who have problems are the ones who have received no discipline or erratic discipline and have not had it demonstrated that they were loved.
Yep. everyone has their own methods that work for them. Smunkees works for her, while I seriously doubt I have the patience she has to even get half the results she gets.

However, While I was spanked, I know I would never raise a hand to my child. infact, I don't want children because I know I will spoil them rotten. :D

What do you do though if your youngest is screaming in Tescos over not being allowed something, sometimes a short sharp shock is sadly nessessary.

It's inconvenient for the parent and others involved, but when my children made scenes in stores or restaurants, they got one warning and, if the behavior continued, we left. The screaming child was isolated for the rest of the day and made to understand that his/her behavior displeased, not just mother, but everyone. If the behavior recurred on a subsequent occasion, the unruly brat was taken, with apologies to everyone else, to the rest room and spanked and then we left - rude behaviour was never rewarded. It seldom got to the spanking part, but it was understood that it was the next step - ostracism works with most kids.

very innovative. and I am glad to see you are also not fostering any emotional control. (actually, I kinda figgured you wernt with your other threads about your oldest. :D )

but I have this question. Newt Gingrich gave a seminar about an Idea about how to get your children to study harder in school. your bead system sounds very similar to his. his theory was to pay them for each type of grade. for instance, A = $5 B = $3 C = $1 D = -2 F = -4. the reasoning being, that
1) in the real working world, Wages and Bonuses are tied to work effort and work results. do well on your projects, and you get a bonus or pay raise. don't do well and you either don't get a raise or you get fired.

2) Uses a reward system that the child can see and relate to.

3) it can be a starting point in teaching them good financial habits and responsibility

there were other points, it was a looong seminar and it was also a long time ago. but would you agree to this system... (looking at your "beads for good behavior" method.)

of course his plan was only for school... not for everyday things. :p

Do you think this is a good plan?

I don't like to tie money to their education because I believe it puts undue pressure on them. I want them to learn to love to learn.

They do earn money, for working, but it's not school work. For example, today before my husband mowed the lawn my 5 year old got out and picked up all the trash and sticks and things the mower couldn't handle, she got paid for that. She gives 10% of her money to the church 30% to savings, and keeps the rest to spend.

and how many scientist and other intellecutals do you know actually refused Grants or Cash Prizes (the Nobel Peace Prize is with cash) for their acheivements?
Tells you what sort of misguided society we live in, doesn't it?

I don't like to tie money to their education because I believe it puts undue pressure on them. I want them to learn to love to learn.

They do earn money, for working, but it's not school work. For example, today before my husband mowed the lawn my 5 year old got out and picked up all the trash and sticks and things the mower couldn't handle, she got paid for that. She gives 10% of her money to the church 30% to savings, and keeps the rest to spend.
They earn a thank you here. We teach them that helping around the house is a natural thing they should be inclined to do. But they get surprise treats now and then. Can't really afford to let them save right now. I wish we could, though.

They earn a thank you here. We teach them that helping around the house is a natural thing they should be inclined to do. But they get surprise treats now and then. Can't really afford to let them save right now. I wish we could, though.

My kids did specified chores because it was considered their obligation as part of the family. They learned because that's what they saw going on in the family (I was a college student while they were young and I never stopped reading and taking classes - they considered this natural). They received necessities because they were members of the family and treats for the same reason. If they wanted something outside the realm of my budget, we worked out a plan where they would earn part of it - doing extra chores for money, getting paper routes, etc. - and I would match what they earned.

Tells you what sort of misguided society we live in, doesn't it?
can you name any society where a scientist or any intellectual will refuse monetary reward for their research?

the only one I can imagine is one where something is held over the scientist, say blackmail, being forced to do so by someone/something...

They earn a thank you here. We teach them that helping around the house is a natural thing they should be inclined to do. But they get surprise treats now and then. Can't really afford to let them save right now. I wish we could, though.
agreed. tho it's never to early to get them to get the concept. like Smunkee's bead thing, it starts them with the concept of saving for favorable things.

I don't like to tie money to their education because I believe it puts undue pressure on them. I want them to learn to love to learn.

They do earn money, for working, but it's not school work. For example, today before my husband mowed the lawn my 5 year old got out and picked up all the trash and sticks and things the mower couldn't handle, she got paid for that. She gives 10% of her money to the church 30% to savings, and keeps the rest to spend.
nice... :D

but isn't your bead system for the youngest the same as paying her for doing her chores? she spends the beads for favorable things like computer time, she learns to save... can't that concept also be used for learning, not surplanting the desire to learn but enforcing it as well?

oh, and btw, just playing devil's advocate here. :p

My kids did specified chores because it was considered their obligation as part of the family. They learned because that's what they saw going on in the family (I was a college student while they were young and I never stopped reading and taking classes - they considered this natural). They received necessities because they were members of the family and treats for the same reason. If they wanted something outside the realm of my budget, we worked out a plan where they would earn part of it - doing extra chores for money, getting paper routes, etc. - and I would match what they earned.
I don't think ours are really old enough to start earning extra. They do what is needed of them, which isn't much. And when they refuse, they still get their basic necessities, of course, but there are consequences.

can you name any society where a scientist or any intellectual will refuse monetary reward for their research?

the only one I can imagine is one where something is held over the scientist, say blackmail, being forced to do so by someone/something...
I can't think of any off-hand, no. But I'm not suggesting there ever was a society that engaged in learning and research purely for the knowledge it would gain. That would be utopia.