NationStates Jolt Archive

It's been a while since we've had a thread on this (I don't fancy grave-digging), and the subject has been threatening to de-rail at least one other thread. So here we go:

Do children benefit from receiving spankings? Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?

UPDATE:

For what it's worth, the question in the poll simply asks whether spanking should be used in rearing children. I answered "Yes" to this question, because I feel that there are situations in which spanking is appropriate.

However, if the question were to read, "Do you believe spanking is a good way to dicipline children," I would answer "No."

Basically, what I'm telling you is that the wording of my poll question kind of sucks. Sorry 'bout that.

It's quick and more affective then trying to explain a child, who won't understand as they are to young, the consequences of their actions.

Moderate spankings are an acceptable form of discipline.

Psycho beatings (ie using a belt) are not.

It's been a while since we've had a thread on this (I don't fancy grave-digging), and the subject has been threatening to de-rail at least one other thread. So here we go:

Do children benefit from receiving spankings? Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?If administered properly. Spankings should be a last resort if the child isn't listening.

It's quick and more affective then trying to explain a child, who won't understand as they are to young, the consequences of their actions.

Agreed.

Moderate spankings are an acceptable form of discipline.

Psycho beatings (ie using a belt) are not.

Aww my father got the belt when he was younger. As did most of my uncles.

It's been a while since we've had a thread on this (I don't fancy grave-digging), and the subject has been threatening to de-rail at least one other thread. So here we go:

Do children benefit from receiving spankings? Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?I was spanked, and I was a Lil hellraiser. I think spankings did me some good.

of course, there is a fine line between spanking and abuse. Parents need to becareful not to cross that line.

It's quick and more affective then trying to explain a child, who won't understand as they are to young, the consequences of their actions.
you mean easier and more convienient.

Children can understand why what they did is wrong if you take the time to explain it, children deserve a clear outline of behavior expected that is age appropriate.

Hitting a child because you don't think they will "understand" what they did wrong serves to further confuse the child.

you mean easier and more convienient.

Children can understand why what they did is wrong if you take the time to explain it, children deserve a clear outline of behavior expected that is age appropriate.

Hitting a child because you don't think they will "understand" what they did wrong serves to further confuse the child.sorry Smunkee.. but your children would understand the lecture of a College Level Physics Proffessor. most adults arn't at that comprehension level of your children :D

you mean easier and more convienient.

Children can understand why what they did is wrong if you take the time to explain it, children deserve a clear outline of behavior expected that is age appropriate.

Hitting a child because you don't think they will "understand" what they did wrong serves to further confuse the child.

I was never really able to think ahead when i was a child, and that is the same with most children. Their brains arn't fully developed. The thing that stopped me from being so much of a brat was the realization that if i do this i will get spanked.

My opinion lies somewhere in between, in that, for some it works, but for others it does not. Speaking for myself, I know that had I recieved spankings as a child, I would only have been more encouraged to do these bad things...but be more devious and cunning about how I do them. Thus, not effective for me. However, others need them/feel opposite to me. It works for them. Much as I would like to not see spankings at all, it is most likely necessary in some cases.

What I'd like to see, however, is occasionally, torture and mutilate a small child, and use him as an example. With the message being "Don't fuck around. Or you get BRUTALIZED!!!!!

It would be awesome.

I was never really able to think ahead when i was a child, and that is the same with most children. Their brains arn't fully developed. The thing that stopped me from being so much of a brat was the realization that if i do this i will get spanked.

Correct. I see so many parents trying to reason with their five year old kids and I'm like, yeah, that'll work.

"White folks please beat your kids." -Russell Peters
;)

sorry Smunkee.. but your children would understand the lecture of a College Level Physics Proffessor. most adults arn't at that comprehension level of your children :D
I deal with "normal" kids too, I teach them preschool remember?

I was never really able to think ahead when i was a child, and that is the same with most children. Their brains arn't fully developed. The thing that stopped me from being so much of a brat was the realization that if i do this i will get spanked.
so what you learned was "if I don't get caught it's okay"

If you give children a clear and consistent view of what is acceptable and what is not, they will 90% of the time follow the rules, the 10% that they don't there must be swift and immediate consequences, but I don't think hitting a child is the best way to achieve that.

Violence is unacceptable in most areas in life (you don't hit your wife, you don't kick your dog, ect.) but for some reason people think it's okay to physically assault children because "it's easy"

:mad:

As a means to convey to younger children the seriousness of a 'wrong action', spanking should remain a tool in the parent's disposal. Once a child is older, and easier to reason with...

... ah who am I kidding. Teenagers are never easy to reason with.

Just start bringing out the spankings already! Spank, spank, spank!

I deal with "normal" kids too, I teach them preschool remember?I know, just adding Levity to a serious topic. :p

Spanking isn't a first resort, as you said, it should only be used as a last resort, and with care.

I agree with Smunkee and Laerod; I would never say that it's always unequivocally unacceptable to spank a child, but I don't think it would ever be necessary.

I deal with "normal" kids too, I teach them preschool remember?


so what you learned was "if I don't get caught it's okay"

If you give children a clear and consistent view of what is acceptable and what is not, they will 90% of the time follow the rules, the 10% that they don't there must be swift and immediate consequences, but I don't think hitting a child is the best way to achieve that.

Violence is unacceptable in most areas in life (you don't hit your wife, you don't kick your dog, ect.) but for some reason people think it's okay to physically assault children because "it's easy"

:mad:


Nice loaded terms there. "physically assault". Please. Did you know that 48% of statistics are made up on the spot?

I have two 3 yr olds. I have dealt w/ numerous others. They will try and get away w/ anything they can and push the limits as far as they can go. In my house, I set the limits much more clearly than my wife at an earlier time. This included spankings. They are much better behaved w/ me than they are for her.

I think it depens on what you define as a spanking. I never recieved the over the knee type thing (without paying :p ) but my parents would generally give me a crack around the head when things were pushed too far. It gave me a good idea of boundries and I managed to grow up into a reasonable well adjusted adult.

I don't approve of it, but it seems to have worked in my family because I recieved it a few times and my sister hasn't. I'm not as bad as her now.

I agree with Smunkee and Laerod; I would never say that it's always unequivocally unacceptable to spank a child, but I don't think it would ever be necessary.The way my dad used to do it was to count to three to give me and my siblings enough time to avoid it.

Nice loaded terms there. "physically assault". Please. Did you know that 48% of statistics are made up on the spot?

I have two 3 yr olds. I have dealt w/ numerous others. They will try and get away w/ anything they can and push the limits as far as they can go. In my house, I set the limits much more clearly than my wife at an earlier time. This included spankings. They are much better behaved w/ me than they are for her.
Physical assault is any act of violent contact between two individuals, usually against the victim’s will. Physical assault can be perpetrated through the use of hands, arms, or feet. It may involve hitting, pushing, kicking, biting, or even spitting.
http://www.yorkcounty.gov/vw/maim/maim.htm
if you do it to an adult it's assault, if you do it to your kid, it's "discipline"

:rolleyes:

it only teaches kids that violence is an acceptable way to teach someone a lesson, so I say no.

I was spanked a couple times but that only angered me and made me want to retaliate, which I usually did very sneakily.

When I was treated like a person rather than a dumb animal and given an explanation of how I did something wrong and why my punishment (like grounding, no tv, no dessert, nno video games, or whatever) was necessary I may have been upset that I was being punished but I didn't feel like I was being treated unfairly.

I have to agree that it really isn't an either/or thing. I think it works for some children, and not for others - even children who have been raised the same way. I received one spanking as a child, and that was enough for me. My brother received many, and it never really worked for him - except when my parents tried the "time out" thing and he looked at them and said, 'Yeah, my psychologist said you can't spank me."

As far as I am concerned, I don't think I'll jump to use it. If it becomes necessary with my children, I will.

http://www.yorkcounty.gov/vw/maim/maim.htm
if you do it to an adult it's assault, if you do it to your kid, it's "discipline"

:rolleyes:

I think he is annoyed at your deliberate use of the word physical abuse instead of spanking to make it sound worse then it really is.

They are much better behaved w/ me than they are for her.


while they plot your demise :p

The way my dad used to do it was to count to three to give me and my siblings enough time to avoid it.Well, what if you did something you weren't supposed to do? Did that warrant a spanking, or were you punished in another way?

I think he is annoyed at your deliberate use of the word physical abuse instead of spanking to make it sound worse then it really is.
if you go up to someone and smack them on the ass, it's assault, if you walk up to your kid and smack them on the ass, it's a spanking

other than you changing the name so that you feel more comfortable what's the difference?

if you go up to someone and smack them on the ass, it's assault, if you walk up to your kid and smack them on the ass, it's a spanking

other than you changing the name so that you feel more comfortable what's the difference?

The second one is useful.

The second one is useful.how is it useful?

http://www.yorkcounty.gov/vw/maim/maim.htm
if you do it to an adult it's assault, if you do it to your kid, it's "discipline"

:rolleyes:

So you advocate that anyone who spanks their children be put in the same category as "domestic violence" and should be charged?

Like I said, nice loaded terms. You can believe all the myths you want, but spanking is, and always has been, an effective form of discipline for children.

I was never spanked but I believe in spanking go figure.

while they plot your demise :p

Being my kids, they would instinctively do that anyway. :)

The only thing that gets to me about the whole spanking issue, is how there seems to be a prevailing attitude that somehow we've all become more 'enlightened' in the last 2 or 3 decades, and that suddenly, something as simple as spanking your kids, is viewed by some as monstrous.

There's no need to get all 'Bing Crosby' on your kids, but treating parents like criminals for something thats been a parental option since... well, forever... is kinda silly. (And I do realize, that in some cases, parents are brutalizing their children, and should be treated like criminals...)

Well, what if you did something you weren't supposed to do? Did that warrant a spanking, or were you punished in another way?
It was a last resort, usually. If I did something I wasn't supposed to I'd usually get grounded or in the case of fighting with my siblings, get stuck in different corners of the room and be bored to death.

how is it useful?

You said it yourself, it disciplines the child.

So you advocate that anyone who spanks their children be put in the same category as "domestic violence" and should be charged?
it's not legally viable to charge them, unless they beat the child half to death, so that's a non-issue.

Like I said, nice loaded terms. You can believe all the myths you want, but spanking is, and always has been, an effective form of discipline for children.
and as I pointed out earlier, discipline and punishment are two different things

spanking is a form of punishment, in my view it is not only the least effective in the long term, but it teaches lessons that are neither healhty or useful to the child.

You said it yourself, it disciplines the child.Couldn't beating your wife "discipline" her, too?

You said it yourself, it disciplines the child.
no it punishes the child, it does not teach discipline, it teaches "don't get caught" and that is not going to help a child be a self disciplined person.

Couldn't beating your wife "discipline" her, too?

Not in a useful way.

Not in a useful way.
explain the difference

no it punishes the child, it does not teach discipline, it teaches "don't get caught" and that is not going to help a child be a self disciplined person.

Not really, because when ever i was about to do something wrong i remembered how angry my father would get. It made me realise that if something can cause so much anger then it must be wrong.

There is no better way to illustrate anger then by spanking. A talk about the consequenses does not illustrate any sort of anger and you will not understand it either.

As a kid I got spanked once for almost burning down the house. :eek: Never before, never after. :D
And as a grownup is none of your business I believe :p

explain the difference

It does more harm then good.

no it punishes the child, it does not teach discipline, it teaches "don't get caught" and that is not going to help a child be a self disciplined person.Not in my case. It was usually used by my Dad to ensure we did as we were told when we were told, not as punishment for doing something wrong (other than not listening, of course). That did discipline in some way.

if you go up to someone and smack them on the ass, it's assault, if you walk up to your kid and smack them on the ass, it's a spanking

other than you changing the name so that you feel more comfortable what's the difference?

Are you legally responsible for the other person? Are you in charge of their education? Notice the words "your kid".

The ploy of "redefining terms" is a political ploy to demonize your opposition.

Not really, because when ever i was about to do something wrong i remembered how angry my father would get. It made me realise that if something can cause so much anger then it must be wrong.

There is no better way to illustrate anger then by spanking. A talk about the consequenses does not illustrate any sort of anger and you will not understand it either.
so, you grew up learning that other people's emotions should dictate your actions, and that also the way to best express anger is to hit someone?

those don't sound like lessons I want my children to learn.

It does more harm then good.
how so?

no it punishes the child, it does not teach discipline, it teaches "don't get caught" and that is not going to help a child be a self disciplined person.

Any form of punishment teaches "don't get caught". That's instinctive in children. You're trying to state that spanking is the ONLY form of discipline used. That is false.

how so?

Are you saying adults and children are at the same mental and emotional level?

so, you grew up learning that other people's emotions should dictate your actions, and that also the way to best express anger is to hit someone?

those don't sound like lessons I want my children to learn.

No... As i got spanked for being violent as well. And thinking of peoples feelings before you do something is proabably a good way to grow up when you are young.

Are you legally responsible for the other person? Are you in charge of their education? Notice the words "your kid".
so being legally responsible for someone and in charge of their education gives you what? the responsibilty to hit them?



The ploy of "redefining terms" is a political ploy to demonize your opposition.
I did not redefine anything, the definition of assault was posted, it is the hitting of someone against their will.

if you go up to someone and smack them on the ass, it's assault, if you walk up to your kid and smack them on the ass, it's a spanking

other than you changing the name so that you feel more comfortable what's the difference?

The same difference as:

You light your neighbors house on fire while playing with matches, if you are seven, you get a spanking, if you are seventeen, you go to jail.

no it punishes the child, it does not teach discipline, it teaches "don't get caught" and that is not going to help a child be a self disciplined person.

I'd have to say that this isn't necessarily true. Once again, it depends on the child. "Don't get caught" *might* have been what my brother got out of it. What I got out of it was that my parents were truly serious about the rule in question, and maybe I should pay attention to it.

Then again, I was always a strange child. When I knew I had done wrong, I was usually the first to tell them.

how so?
Adults usually (should) have enough sense not to do certain things and aren't in the same legal relationship as between guardian and child.

so, you grew up learning that other people's emotions should dictate your actions, and that also the way to best express anger is to hit someone?

those don't sound like lessons I want my children to learn.

When the other people are the ones in absolute authority,like parents, their emotions and actions do dictate your own.

You teach your children however you want. Nobody's saying you have to discipline your children through spanking.

I've heard the advocates of spanking say that they were spanked as a child and they turned out fine. This is for the most part true, but I'm always tempted to ask "you don't think it made you more violent?"

I've heard the advocates of spanking say that they were spanked as a child and they turned out fine. This is for the most part true, but I'm always tempted to ask "you don't think it made you more violent?"

No, I don't. In fact, I am one of the most non-violent people I know.

Not really, because when ever i was about to do something wrong i remembered how angry my father would get. It made me realise that if something can cause so much anger then it must be wrong.

There is no better way to illustrate anger then by spanking. A talk about the consequenses does not illustrate any sort of anger and you will not understand it either.


wrong - hitting me only made me angry and I found devious ways of getting back at them, explanations of why I was getting non-violent punishments showed me that they cared about me but were doing what was necessary to teach me the lesson that what I did was wrong.

Any form of punishment teaches "don't get caught". That's instinctive in children. You're trying to state that spanking is the ONLY form of discipline used. That is false.
that would be why I don't punish my kids.

I teach them discipline.

No... As i got spanked for being violent as well. And thinking of peoples feelings before you do something is proabably a good way to grow up when you are young.
so children are not able to understand the effects of their actions, but they are supposed to figure out what someone else might feel before they do something?

I don't understand.

Are you saying adults and children are at the same mental and emotional level?
I didn't say that. I asked what the difference between hitting and adult and hitting a child is.

how so?

Beating your wife causes break ups, severe depression, physical scars etc...

A small spanking now and again does not cause any harm.

Do children benefit from receiving spankings?

Yes!

Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?

Yes!

I did not redefine anything, the definition of assault was posted, it is the hitting of someone against their will.

You did redefine it. An assault is an attack, a spanking is corporal punishment, which is not defined as an assault.

so being legally responsible for someone and in charge of their education gives you what? the responsibilty to hit them?

Nice false analogy. Now you're trying to state that I "have" to "hit" them. Like I said, nice way to demonize the opposition.




I did not redefine anything, the definition of assault was posted, it is the hitting of someone against their will.

You're trying to associate spanking w/ child abuse. That is redefining the terms to associate them w/ your own biases. Do you include yelling at children to be verbal abuse? Do you include grounding them to their rooms to be involuntary incarceration? Do you include taking away thier Nintento to be theft? Do you include extra chores to be involuntary servitute?

When the other people are the ones in absolute authority,like parents, their emotions and actions do dictate your own.
my emotions should not influence anyone else's actions, it's dangerous to teach your children to be people pleasers, to do things so that people don't get "angry" or "hurt", it puts them in a position to be abused (among other things)

You teach your children however you want. Nobody's saying you have to discipline your children through spanking.
I will teach them how I want. I was asked in the OP, in my opinion whether spanking is useful, I don't believe it to be.

Violence is unacceptable in most areas in life (you don't hit your wife, you don't kick your dog, ect.) but for some reason people think it's okay to physically assault children because "it's easy"

:mad:

I don't discipline my wife, should I start giving her timeouts? I did give my dog a swat on his butt if he was bad, guess what? I have the best behaved dog of anyone I know. People are always asking how I trained him to be so good. It’s all about patients and training, if a spank was warranted then so be it.

I do agree parents shouldn't spank their kids as a knee jerk reaction, you should try other options first. If you explain why the spanking was warranted then the kids understand. I don’t know how many people use “That’s 1…….that’s 2…..” and when the kids figure out that there isn’t much punishment when they get to 3 the system stops working.

I was spanked as a kids a few times and it’s not about the actual pain, it’s more about hurt feelings. I felt that I let my parents down. The phrase “This is going to hurt me more than you” is fitting.

You did redefine it. An assault is an attack, a spanking is corporal punishment, which is not defined as an assault.
I wanted to know what the difference is, why is it okay to hit your child, but not the next door neighbor's child?

Beating your wife causes break ups, severe depression, physical scars etc...

A small spanking now and again does not cause any harm.

Not to mention that you aren't responsible for disciplining other adults. You aren't going to put your wife in time-out or tell her that she can't go to extracurricular activities if she doesn't get her homework done, either.



Not really, because when ever i was about to do something wrong i remembered how angry my father would get. It made me realise that if something can cause so much anger then it must be wrong.

There is no better way to illustrate anger then by spanking. A talk about the consequenses does not illustrate any sort of anger and you will not understand it either.

wrong - hitting me only made me angry and I found devious ways of getting back at them, explanations of why I was getting non-violent punishments showed me that they cared about me but were doing what was necessary to teach me the lesson that what I did was wrong.

And this seems to reinforce my point. Different strategies work for different children.

I wanted to know what the difference is, why is it okay to hit your child, but not the next door neighbor's child?

Because you don't have legal responsibility for that child.

that would be why I don't punish my kids.

I teach them discipline.

In your opinion.


I didn't say that. I asked what the difference between hitting and adult and hitting a child is.

Well, you like to keep reffering to it as "hitting" to demonize the idea. I don't "hit" my children. I spank them as a form of punishment and discipline. I don't "hit" an adult unless I am struck first. You ARE trying to compare the mental and emotional levels of adults and children.

um... enouigh with the segreagation of the polls.

I wanted to know what the difference is, why is it okay to hit your child, but not the next door neighbor's child?

Why is it ok to ground your child, but not the child next door? Why is it ok to give your child a curfew, but not the child next door?

Of course, if the parents of the child next door give you permission to help discipline their child, the question is thrown out the window. =)

You're trying to associate spanking w/ child abuse.
no I am asking what the difference between hitting a child and hitting an adult is, and why is it acceptable to hit a child?



Do you include yelling at children to be verbal abuse?
sure. We don't yell in our house, it's not acceptable behavior.


Do you include grounding them to their rooms to be involuntary incarceration?
is anyone ever voluntarily incarcerated?

Do you include taking away thier Nintento to be theft?
I don't take away anything, I refuse access to it, there is a difference.

Do you include extra chores to be involuntary servitute?
chores are not punishments

I wanted to know what the difference is, why is it okay to hit your child, but not the next door neighbor's child?

For the same reason that the Canadian government can't go on down to the States and start writing fines to businesses that don't have equal French and English documentation. It's not their jurisdiction. It's not in my neighbor's jurisdiction of responsibilities to be able to discipline my kids for the rules they make in their house.

I wanted to know what the difference is, why is it okay to hit your child, but not the next door neighbor's child?

Because the way you raise your children is a personal matter. Spanking is, to most people, a last resort form of punishment. It wasn't all that long ago that people would let teachers spank their kids, but it is now taboo, and up to the individual parent to ascertain.

Well, you like to keep reffering to it as "hitting" to demonize the idea. I don't "hit" my children. I spank them as a form of punishment and discipline. I don't "hit" an adult unless I am struck first. You ARE trying to compare the mental and emotional levels of adults and children.
you are upset because hitting and spanking are the same thing

you are upset because hitting and spanking are the same thing

Maybe, but physical assult definately isn't.

my emotions should not influence anyone else's actions, it's dangerous to teach your children to be people pleasers, to do things so that people don't get "angry" or "hurt", it puts them in a position to be abused (among other things)

So now teaching children to be concious of other people's emotions, especially their parents, is making them "people pleasers" and creating victims?

I will teach them how I want. I was asked in the OP, in my opinion whether spanking is useful, I don't believe it to be.

I didn't say you couldn't. You, by redefining spanking, are advocating that those who do, should be considered child abusers and prosecuted.

you are upset because hitting and spanking are the same thing

Only in your world.

Maybe, but physical assult definately isn't.
physical assualt- hitting someone against their will

spanking- hitting your child against their will

physical assualt- hitting someone against their will

spanking- hitting your child against their will

By that logic, self defense is physical assualt as well.

No, I don't. In fact, I am one of the most non-violent people I know.Do you think you might have gotten that your parents were truly serious about the rule in question from some other way than spanking?

So now teaching children to be concious of other people's emotions, especially their parents, is making them "people pleasers" and creating victims?
being concious of someone's emotions, and letting their emotions dicate your actions are two different things.


I didn't say you couldn't. You, by redefining spanking, are advocating that those who do, should be considered child abusers and prosecuted.
where did I say that?

you are upset because hitting and spanking are the same thingThey are not. Spanking is hitting, but hitting isn't spanking, just like dogs are mammals, but mammals aren't dogs.

physical assualt- hitting someone against their will

spanking- hitting your child against their will

Smunkee, grow up and actually learn a few things. Spanking isn't child abuse. Period. You being a mother I'm surprised you did not know this definition. So shut the fuck up.

no I am asking what the difference between hitting a child and hitting an adult is, and why is it acceptable to hit a child?

And it has been answered but w/o your modified terms. Keep trying.




sure. We don't yell in our house, it's not acceptable behavior.

In your house. So you advocate prosecution for people who yell at their children?



is anyone ever voluntarily incarcerated?

Nice dodge. Try to answer the question.


I don't take away anything, I refuse access to it, there is a difference.

No there isn't. You're taking away their personal property. That's theft. How is it different than "refusing access" to an adults property?


chores are not punishments


I said extra chores. Nice redefining of the terms again.

Smunkee, grow up and actually learn a few things. Spanking isn't child abuse. Period. You being a mother I'm surprised you did not know this definition. So shut the fuck up.
nice.

do you have an actual intelligent statement to add or is it just "grow up and shut the fuck up"

Do you think you might have gotten that your parents were truly serious about the rule in question from some other way than spanking?

Possibly - I can't really say. Of course, after one spanking, it only took the threat of a spanking to make it obvious that they were serious (for me, anyways). I can say that some of the other suggested forms of discipline did not. Things like "time-out" or even grounding generally only had the effect of either sending me to my room to read (which I didn't mind at all) or, if they took the books away, pissing me off.

Smunkee, grow up and actually learn a few things. Spanking isn't child abuse. Period. You being a mother I'm surprised you did not know this definition. So shut the fuck up.And that was necessary because..? :rolleyes:

being concious of someone's emotions, and letting their emotions dicate your actions are two different things.

If you don't believe that emotions dictate your actions, you're very detached.



where did I say that?

By stating that spanking your child is physical assault. That is a prosecutable offense. Do you deny making that association?

Not to mention that you aren't responsible for disciplining other adults. You aren't going to put your wife in time-out or tell her that she can't go to extracurricular activities if she doesn't get her homework done, either.

Don't tell my wife that :p

And this seems to reinforce my point. Different strategies work for different children.

That is probably true, but I do believe that other non-violent forms of punishment should always be used first. Spanking should be the very last resort (for the unimaginative parent) as I still believe that it teaches that violence is an acceptable way of showing others that you are upset with them. Many of us have been able to over come physical and verbal abuse and realise that our parents were treating us unfairly and that there were better ways to handle the situation.

A warning to parents to hit their kids... you may not know exactly how your child is retaliating (if they are indeed doing so). One example of my retaliation for hitting me? I pissed in their jug of lemonade. *L*

physical assualt- hitting someone against their will

spanking- hitting your child against their will

Once again, you're claiming that spanking is equal to "physical assault", a crime.

I was only spanked a few times as a child. It hurt like hell.


But it worked.

Possibly - I can't really say. Of course, after one spanking, it only took the threat of a spanking to make it obvious that they were serious (for me, anyways). I can say that some of the other suggested forms of discipline did not. Things like "time-out" or even grounding generally only had the effect of either sending me to my room to read (which I didn't mind at all) or, if they took the books away, pissing me off.Being spanked didn't piss you off?

And it has been answered but w/o your modified terms. Keep trying.

:p I think I am done.

In your house. So you advocate prosecution for people who yell at their children?
just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean I think people should be prosecuted for it.


Nice dodge. Try to answer the question.
there is no such thing as voluntariy incarceration, so any incarceration by definition would have to be involuntary.

No there isn't. You're taking away their personal property. That's theft. How is it different than "refusing access" to an adults property?
my children do not have personal property, outside of their bed, and their pillow and blanket. It all belongs to me, I can do with my possesions what I wish.

I said extra chores. Nice redefining of the terms again.
okay, sorry about that one, didn't see the word extra. ;)

Don't tell my wife that :p

=)

That is probably true, but I do believe that other non-violent forms of punishment should always be used first.

Certainly. My own parents didn't jump to spanking. In fact, there were multiple warnings before then.

nice.

do you have an actual intelligent statement to add or is it just "grow up and shut the fuck up"

Yea I do but others have already stated it. Spanking isn't physical abuse and therefor not a crime unless of course you are in the UK. Luckily we are not at that stage yet.

I am all for spanking but heaven for bid you assault your wife because then you deserve whatever has coming to ya.

Yea I do but others have already stated it. Spanking isn't physical abuse and therefor not a crime unless of course you are in the UK. Luckily we are not at that stage yet.

I am all for spanking but heaven for bid you assault your wife because then you deserve whatever has coming to ya.

I'm pretty sure spanking is legal over here.

Being spanked didn't piss you off?

No, actually.

my children do not have personal property, outside of their bed, and their pillow and blanket. It all belongs to me, I can do with my possesions what I wish.


I do have to say that I disagree with this strategy. I see no reason that a child should not have personal property.

I do have to say that I disagree with this strategy. I see no reason that a child should not have personal property.
they have things they buy, I don't keep an inventory of it. Things that are regulated belong to me, TV, computer, playstation, ect. I am not "stealing" anything from them when I lock the playstation up.

No, actually. Hm, interesting. Did getting pissed off make you more likely to do something you weren't supposed to do?

:p I think I am done.

And have been.


just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean I think people should be prosecuted for it.

So you do or don't associate it w/ a criminal activity?



there is no such thing as voluntariy incarceration, so any incarceration by definition would have to be involuntary.

So pulling out the legal definition of "pyhsicall assault" and comparing it to spanking is OK, but using the legal definition of involuntary incarceration and comparing it to being grounded to ones room is not?

You've dodged this question enough.


my children do not have personal property, outside of their bed, and their pillow and blanket. It all belongs to me, I can do with my possesions what I wish.

So now you're saying that there IS a difference in the standing between children and adults?


okay, sorry about that one, didn't see the word extra. ;)

So is having them do extra chores "involutary servitude"? Howabout having them do chores at all? Like you said, they don't own anything, you're having them do work for your benefit.

Smunkee, grow up and actually learn a few things. Spanking isn't child abuse. Period. You being a mother I'm surprised you did not know this definition. So shut the fuck up.

Knock it off, Corny. There's no need for that.

It seems to me that most of you are missing a crucial distinction between punishment and abuse: the intent in each case is completely different. With punishment, the intent is to use coercive force for corrective benefit. Now, some people might not believe this is possible (I do), but clearly the intent in punishment is to make beneficial changes in the punishee; by hurting him now, the punisher is helping them later. The intent is very different for outright abuse; in that case, the matter is purely an issue of control. An abuser uses force not to correct behavior so much as to break the will of and achieve dominance over the child's life, thoughts, and actions.

As a practical result, even though abusers and punishers use may use some of the same means, they use them in very different ways. A punisher may strike the child, but it is usually in a reasoned attempt to correct specific bad behavior: when the behavior goes away, so does the punishment, and further that punishment is inflicted only because other methods such as persuasion have failed. An abuser, by contrast, will also strike a child, but it will be inconsistent, for any violation whether articulated or not, and the punishment will not cease with the cessation of any specific behavior because changing behavior is not the goal of the abuser. As such, while clearly there are some punishments that are automatically abuse (no matter how egregious the offense, for instance, we would never allow a parent to sodomize a child), there is a clear and distinct difference between striking a child for reasons of punishment and abusing him.

they have things they buy, I don't keep an inventory of it. Things that are regulated belong to me, TV, computer, playstation, ect. I am not "stealing" anything from them when I lock the playstation up.

So gifts they recieve are not their property, it's yours?

You've never "locked up" something they bought or recieved as a gift?

So gifts they recieve are not their property, it's yours?

Technically yes, but we are getting less and less relevent to the actual topic now. This particular argument will lead us nowhere.

So you do or don't associate it w/ a criminal activity?
for something to be a criminal activity it would have to be against the law.

like I said there are many things that I think are wrong, but aren't nor should they be illegal.

So pulling out the legal definition of "pyhsicall assault" and comparing it to spanking is OK, but using the legal definition of involuntary incarceration and comparing it to being grounded to ones room is not?
can you find me the legal definition of involuntary incarceration?


So now you're saying that there IS a difference in the standing between children and adults?
how is that?
you are saying that children are below parents?

I have things I own, I do with them what I want.

So is having them do extra chores "involutary servitude"? Howabout having them do chores at all? Like you said, they don't own anything, you're having them do work for your benefit.
they are working for their own benefit when they do chores.

Hm, interesting. Did getting pissed off make you more likely to do something you weren't supposed to do?

I can't think of anything my parents did that made me more likely to break the rules, but being pissed off, rather than upset that I had done something wrong, was probably the most likely situation to lead to a "Don't get caught" mentality.

Technically yes, but we are getting less and less relevent to the actual topic now. This particular argument will lead us nowhere.

No but it goes to show that Smunkie has dug herself a deep dark hole that she can't get out of

So gifts they recieve are not their property, it's yours?
technically everything in the house is mine.

You've never "locked up" something they bought or recieved as a gift?
no, I would have no reason to.

It's been a while since we've had a thread on this (I don't fancy grave-digging), and the subject has been threatening to de-rail at least one other thread. So here we go:

Do children benefit from receiving spankings? Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?

It should never be used. It does nothing to improve the child's behaviour and only serves to build up barriers between the child and the parents.

Yes, I was spanked as kid, and I don't mean spanking as a slap on the bum when I misbehaved, I'm referring to the more violent and painful methods. It didn't stop me from misbehaving again, I only became more careful to make sure my parents wouldn't find out. And it is one of the reasons why I haven't spoken to my father in nearly 10 years.

for those of you who feel that spanking is useful (or even necessary), I am curious as to when you feel it is appropriate to slap/spank/whip them? By that I mean, for what infractions and also should it be used right away or should other forms of punishment be used first?

What kind of physical violence do you feel is most useful/appropriate?

It should never be used. It does nothing to improve the child's behaviour and only serves to build up barriers between the child and the parents.

Yes, I was spanked as kid, and I don't mean spanking as a slap on the bum when I misbehaved, I'm referring to the more violent and painful methods. It didn't stop me from misbehaving again, I only became more careful to make sure my parents wouldn't find out. And it is one of the reasons why I haven't spoken to my father in nearly 10 years.

I am sorry for your violent up bringing, but i am definately not condoning anything more then a little slap now and again.

I can't think of anything my parents did that made me more likely to break the rules, but being pissed off, rather than upset that I had done something wrong, was probably the most likely situation to lead to a "Don't get caught" mentality.I find it interesting that this is the case, but everybody is different.

for those of you who feel that spanking is useful (or even necessary), I am curious as to when you feel it is appropriate to slap/spank/whip them? By that I mean, for what infractions and also should it be used right away or should other forms of punishment be used first?

What kind of physical violence do you feel is most useful/appropriate?

Anything that doesn't cause long term harm or stress.

Anything that doesn't cause long term harm or stress.
you don't think it stresses or confuses a child when a parent who claims to love them hurts them?

just asking.

reading Cabra's post I realized I probably am on the extreme of one side on this subject because I was physically abused as a child.

you don't think it stresses or confuses a child when a parent who claims to love them hurts them?

You think its ok to give him timeout after timeout even if he doesn't learn anything from it? Come on. THat's like.....*cuts thought off*

just asking.

for those of you who feel that spanking is useful (or even necessary), I am curious as to when you feel it is appropriate to slap/spank/whip them? By that I mean, for what infractions and also should it be used right away or should other forms of punishment be used first?

What kind of physical violence do you feel is most useful/appropriate?

Slapping is almost always a spur-of-the-moment thing, and therefore is most likely not appropriate. Whipping is going too far.

A spanking, I think, should only be used after other methods of discipline have been tried and have failed with that particular child. A child should be warned that continued misbehavior will result in a spanking. It should not be done in the heat of the moment.


I find it interesting that this is the case, but everybody is different.

I think that is exactly the point. Every child is different, so a parent will have to find strategies that work with that child.

You think its ok to give him timeout after timeout even if he doesn't learn anything from it? Come on. THat's like.....*cuts thought off*

just asking.
why do you think children don't learn anything from time out? is there something uber-educational about a spanking?

oh, and I don't deal in time-outs. I don't punish my children.

for something to be a criminal activity it would have to be against the law. [/quote

like I said there are many things that I think are wrong, but aren't nor should they be illegal.

And you directly compared spanking to a criminal activity.


can you find me the legal definition of involuntary incarceration?

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/false+imprisonment


how is that?
you are saying that children are below parents?

I have things I own, I do with them what I want.

Parents are legally responsible for children. Did I say anything about "below"?
Answer my question, have you ever "denied access" to something that they "own"? Why are gifts to them considered "your property"?


they are working for their own benefit when they do chores.

In your opinion. Does extra chores constite "involuntary servitude"? Do you oppose the use of using extra chores as a form of punishment?

Anything that doesn't cause long term harm or stress.


what? that does not address my questions at all.

should you hit yoru kid right away or try other punishments first?

what does the child have to do to deserve a spanking?

which kinds of physical violence is okay to use? spanking? slap upside the head? belt? tree branch? hot lighter to the bottom of the feet?

you don't think it stresses or confuses a child when a parent who claims to love them hurts them?


No more then getting grounded, denied sweets or video games, doing chors etc.. did.

you don't think it stresses or confuses a child when a parent who claims to love them hurts them?

As I got older, I was more hurt by my mother looking at me and saying, "I'm disappointed in you," than I ever was by actual physical punishment. Of course, in those cases, it was a hurt I needed to realize the consequences of my actions.

why do you think children don't learn anything from time out? is there something uber-educational about a spanking?

oh, and I don't deal in time-outs. I don't punish my children.

No wonder you are having troubles.

you don't think it stresses or confuses a child when a parent who claims to love them hurts them?

just asking.

reading Cabra's post I realized I probably am on the extreme of one side on this subject because I was physically abused as a child.
sorry to hear that. and glad you didn't fall into the abuse cycle.

the thing is, spanking a child does not equate abuse, but that doesn't mean disicpline CANNOT turn into abuse.

there are also some offenses that a child will repeatedly do, no matter how many times you explain things to them or put them in time out. sometimes spanking will sink the lesson in.

what? that does not address my questions at all.

should you hit yoru kid right away or try other punishments first?

what does the child have to do to deserve a spanking?

which kinds of physical violence is okay to use? spanking? slap upside the head? belt? tree branch? hot lighter to the bottom of the feet?

Oh i must of misunderstood.

1. It should probably be a last resort.

2. Thats a bit vague.

3. I answered that before. (Basicly a light spank here and there, nothing that causes permenant harm.)

I think that is exactly the point. Every child is different, so a parent will have to find strategies that work with that child.Were your parents consistent with punishment? Like, if you were grounded for a week was it the whole week or did they let you off early?

The only time I got spanked was when my parents lost their temper. Usually I was just goofing around and I can't say it helped me at all just made me terrified of my parents when they were angery (they didn't hit me that hard but I found it more scary then painful). Mostly it just confused me because I was just kidding. It's not like it has damaged me, but I can't say it's helped my relationship with my parents. All it really meant was that when I got old enough that it stopped it only made other punishments less severe.

Were your parents consistent with punishment? Like, if you were grounded for a week was it the whole week or did they let you off early?

I can only remember a few groundings, and I don't recall ever being let off early. My mother, at least, was really good about sticking to her guns once she had decided something, and she's pretty much the only one we got true discipline from anyways.

No but it goes to show that Smunkie has dug herself a deep dark hole that she can't get out of

No hole is Smunkee-proof :p


I got slapped a bit as a kid - not that often, usually it'd end up with my dad chasing me up the stairs and locking myself safely in the bathroom where he couldn't get to me. :D

I don't resent my parents for it, I've turned out well and get on great with both of them.

No wonder you are having troubles.
I am not having any troubles, and neither are my children. They are responsible and respectful members of society.

Oh i must of misunderstood.

1. It should probably be a last resort.

2. Thats a bit vague.

3. I answered that before. (Basicly a light spank here and there, nothing that causes permenant harm.)


1. good to hear

2. I don't think so.

3. Didnt see that, but I can tell you that when my mom caught me trying a cigg with some friends in like 2nd grade, she whipped me with a belt all teh way home as I laughed. Since that didnt work she didnt let me have any sweets for a month and didnt let me go out and play and I started listening after that. I was much less mischevous.

why do you think children don't learn anything from time out? is there something uber-educational about a spanking?

oh, and I don't deal in time-outs. I don't punish my children.

*blinks*

Why haven't you made a fortune on 'how to raise your kids into perfect members of society' books yet?

Or are you waiting for the teenage years to see if it all pans out as planned?

It should never be used. It does nothing to improve the child's behaviour and only serves to build up barriers between the child and the parents.

Yes, I was spanked as kid, and I don't mean spanking as a slap on the bum when I misbehaved, I'm referring to the more violent and painful methods. It didn't stop me from misbehaving again, I only became more careful to make sure my parents wouldn't find out. And it is one of the reasons why I haven't spoken to my father in nearly 10 years.ah, my spankings were one to three slaps with the hand, or one sharp smack with a brush or wooden spoon, no more.

I can tell you, while it does make one more careful about getting caught, it did also make me consider the consiquences of my actions.

Now the real question is, can you spank your own children.

me... probably not, I am definately non-violent.

No more then getting grounded, denied sweets or video games, doing chors etc.. did.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm

*blinks*

Why haven't you made a fortune on 'how to raise your kids into perfect members of society' books yet?

Or are you waiting for the teenage years to see if it all pans out as planned?
my book is at the publishers now, it will be out probably next fall.

my book is at the publishers now, it will be out probably next fall.
can I get an Autographed one?

PWEEESE!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm

I think thats to do with much more severe spankings then we are actually talking about.

can I get an Autographed one?

PWEEESE!
can I hand deliver it to Hawaii and hang out for a few days?

my book is at the publishers now, it will be out probably next fall.

I'm waiting for you to appear on Springer with an assortment of colourful characters. I'm sure you'll get lots of 'Don't you tell ME how to raise MY kids... uh-huh'.

If you've mastered the spankless art of parenting, kudos to you. In all seriousness.

although I am against spanking, if I had kids I think I would be doing the knee-jerk smacks upside the head and such as well as verbal abuse when I lost my temper.

I'd be the kind of dad who thinks a hog tied and ball gagged kid is much better than a screaming brat on a rampage.

Good thing I don't want kids.

I'm waiting for you to appear on Springer with an assortment of colourful characters. I'm sure you'll get lots of 'Don't you tell ME how to raise MY kids... uh-huh'.
ha! if he shows up on my promo tour schedule I quit! LOL

If you've mastered the spankless art of parenting, kudos to you. In all seriousness.
it's not easy, or fast, or even fun most of the time for me, but it works, and my kids are better for it. ;)

can I hand deliver it to Hawaii and hang out for a few days?
Sure, we can hit all the touristy places!

I'm waiting for you to appear on Springer with an assortment of colourful characters. I'm sure you'll get lots of 'Don't you tell ME how to raise MY kids... uh-huh'.

If you've mastered the spankless art of parenting, kudos to you. In all seriousness.nah, Springer won't have her. no chance of any fight breaking out, no furniture tossing...


now Dr. Phil's show, or Oprah...

I think spanking (not beating) can be an effective last resort. It's a bad first resort and worse than useless as an empty threat. By about 6 or 7 years old it is no longer really valid.

Or are you waiting for the teenage years to see if it all pans out as planned?

Yea that is what is worrying me about this.

Yea that is what is worrying me about this.
can you explain to me what's wrong with not spanking a child?

If administered properly. Spankings should be a last resort if the child isn't listening.

I have rarely had to administer one. I've found that spending more floor time with small children, and coming up with alternative methods of punishment work quite well.

Often, what is needed to stop a child from doing something harmful or inane is to redirect their attention. This can often be accomplished without even raising your voice.

A redirect, I've found, is quieter, involves no spank, and involves no threat.

nah, Springer won't have her. no chance of any fight breaking out, no furniture tossing...


now Dr. Phil's show, or Oprah...

Smunkee could easily make Springer if she showed up in full Klingon garb and Batleth claiming to be the 1st non violent Klingon child rearer.

Yea that is what is worrying me about this.
that's for Smunkee to really worry about, tho if her children know they can talk to her honestly and get no reprisals as well as can get 1) a listening ear, 2) honest replies 3) a chance to air their concerns, opinions, as well as be treated seriously, I cannot see that many problems in their teenage years.

that's for Smunkee to really worry about, tho if her children know they can talk to her honestly and get no reprisals as well as can get 1) a listening ear, 2) honest replies 3) a chance to air their concerns, opinions, as well as be treated seriously, I cannot see that many problems in their teenage years.

Teenagers though are clearly a different breed :D

Smunkee could easily make Springer if she showed up in full Klingon garb and Batleth claiming to be the 1st non violent Klingon child rearer.
and another guest as a traditional Klingon... ok, that I can see working, but the Batleths need to be sharp... and Jerry standing between the two. :D

I have rarely had to administer one. I've found that spending more floor time with small children, and coming up with alternative methods of punishment work quite well.

Often, what is needed to stop a child from doing something harmful or inane is to redirect their attention. This can often be accomplished without even raising your voice.

A redirect, I've found, is quieter, involves no spank, and involves no threat.
exactly. ;)

Do children benefit from receiving spankings?

No.

Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?

No. Spanked children don't grow up healthy and well-adjusted because they were spanked. If they grow up healthy and well-adjusted, it's despite being spanked.

exactly. ;)
The best part is that if children are used to receiving commands without you raising your voice, you aren't one of those screaming parents that I see so often.

I also teach some of my children hand and arm signals - it's possible for me to silence them simply by giving the signal to freeze.

I've spooked other parents more than once by having all five of my children go silent and motionless without hearing me speak.

Anything that doesn't cause long term harm or stress.

And how do you know where that line is? For me, I would say it the simple realisation that this person can do that to me and I can't defend myself. The pain was negligeable, I grew up with two brothers. You get used to physical pain.

The best part is that if children are used to receiving commands without you raising your voice, you aren't one of those screaming parents that I see so often.

I also teach some of my children hand and arm signals - it's possible for me to silence them simply by giving the signal to freeze.

I've spooked other parents more than once by having all five of my children go silent and motionless without hearing me speak.
yeah, me too.

I teach a class of preschoolers, and they know when I touch my nose that it's quiet time, they all get very quiet, and look straight at me.

it freaks people out. :D

It's quick and more affective then trying to explain a child, who won't understand as they are to young, the consequences of their actions.

Oh really? You assume that all children are alike, I see. Well, that couldn't be any further from the truth.

I understood what was told to me when I was three years old. What confused me was getting slapped in the forehead for spilling water on the carpet, without getting an explanation along with it.

I got spanked, slapped, and kicked in the ass a lot (and I mean a *lot*) before age six, and rarely did I ever realise what I did was really so wrong... Though looking back on what I did, there was no reason for what my dad did to me.


1: Spilling drinks and food on floors counts as an accident. It's not like I ever did it on purpose, and I knew so. But I got slapped hard in the face (not the forehead) anyway. I even got a nasty bloody nose from it once.

2: Saying the word "fuck" because I heard my dad use it is hardly grounds for a swift fist to the ass. He could've told me not to say it, but nope. He also wacked me in the face, knocking me to the floor below my seat at the dinner table for saying "piss", which rhymed with "Chris" (my brother and I were playing a rhyme game)... And like words mean anything in the long run, anyway...


Just two good examples of what my dad used to do on a regular basis for next to nothing. I'll also mention that he'd always get an insane grin of joy on his face just before doing so, especially when chasing me around the dining room table in our old house and finally cornering me in the hall, winding up for a very hard hand across the face.

After he'd do these things, I'd usually go to my room and look at my Matchbox car collection (that, or read). I'd collect my thoughts, wondering why he did what he did, and why he couldn't have just simply said "don't do that".

I guess it required too much effort in the thought department. Fucking bastard.

No. Spanked children don't grow up healthy and well-adjusted because they were spanked. If they grow up healthy and well-adjusted, it's despite being spanked.
dunno, I have two brothers, both have families of their own. one spanks only when it's necessary, the other doesn't believe in spanking at all.

the children of the one who spanks only as a last resort, their children are well behaved, normal active kids. they do cause mischief as kids do, but will listen to the adults around.

the other who doesn't spank, but "explains" everything and puts them in Time Out, don't listen to any adults, always makes trouble for other adults and talks back to their parents.

dunno, I have two brothers, both have families of their own. one spanks only when it's necessary, the other doesn't believe in spanking at all.

the children of the one who spanks only as a last resort, their children are well behaved, normal active kids. they do cause mischief as kids do, but will listen to the adults around.

the other who doesn't spank, but "explains" everything and puts them in Time Out, don't listen to any adults, always makes trouble for other adults and talks back to their parents.
time out as a punishment is ineffective in most cases.

always makes trouble for other adults and talks back to their parents.

And how's this a bad thing? Adults can be total fuckfaces toward kids, and it rarely goes unchecked.

My dad threatens to do me in if I talk back to him, and I'm 18 and two inches taller than he is. Does it make things better? No, it just makes me hate his guts even more.

time out as a punishment is ineffective in most cases.

Arent time outs were meant to be calming periods rather than punitive?

Real question BTW not a smart allecky comment.

To get more cooperative (and presumably happy) children.

1. Play with them - I mean it - on the floor, in the dirt, etc.
2. Always try to pose what you want them to do as a set of alternatives among which they may freely choose, thus disguising the real aim of your statement. As an example, you can ask the child what they would like for lunch, rather than just making what you think is easy and forcing them to eat it. If they aren't hungry, be consistent about the rule (we eat when we're hungry at mealtime, and at regular snack time). Yes, you want them to eat, but you don't want them to get an eating disorder.
3. Kids love a regular schedule. It's summer now, so officially, bedtime is moved back to 9:30 PM. It's still bedtime though.
4. Turn off the TV. Turn off the TV. Turn off the TV. A lot of shows emphasize too much emotional drama (which I believe is more harmful than the violence), and encourage a horrific attitude (everyone is stupid and I know it is the mantra of the Disney Channel).
5. Don't overschedule your kids - you don't need to be the parent with every kid in three out-of-the-house team activities.
6. Spend time talking with them about what they want to talk about.
7. Their self-esteem is important. Be quicker to praise than to criticize.
8. Teach them not to tattle. Yes, you want them to tell the truth, but if you're grilling them about something minor, maybe you need to let it go. They should learn when it's important to tell you, and when it should be apparent that you should let it go.
9. Redirect them when you want them to stop something they are currently doing. With practice, it's easy.
10. Never promise something to a child and fail to deliver it.
11. They are smarter than you believe. Way smarter.

Arent time outs were meant to be calming periods rather than punitive?

Real question BTW not a smart allecky comment.
yes. Time out is to get the child calm enough so that you can discuss things with them.

I just get annoyed when I hear parents "do you want a time out? no? well, then chill"

if the kid is throwing a fit, they need a time out, if you are being an ass, you need a time out. It's not something you threaten a kid with, it's supposed to help them and you, not be a "bad" thing.

dunno, I have two brothers, both have families of their own. one spanks only when it's necessary, the other doesn't believe in spanking at all.

the children of the one who spanks only as a last resort, their children are well behaved, normal active kids. they do cause mischief as kids do, but will listen to the adults around.

the other who doesn't spank, but "explains" everything and puts them in Time Out, don't listen to any adults, always makes trouble for other adults and talks back to their parents.
Well, spanking is very effective at getting kids to immediately stop what they are doing and to teach them not to do it. The price to pay is their mental health in the future. (Thus mooting any benefit and, hence, my original no.)

But a lot of parents who don't spank don't go through the trouble of learning how to discipline without it. If you're not going to hit your kid, great, but that doesn't mean let them run rampant because you don't know what else will work as effectively.

time out as a punishment is ineffective in most cases.

I've found that taking a child to the side, and talking calmly to them out of sight of the other children is pretty effective (not as punishment, but as a means of getting them to behave without shaming them in front of their peers).

For those moments when a child is truly unruly, it's usually because they are tired or upset - and then it's time for a nap. Nap is not punishment (although the child may initially see it as such). But naps work.

And how's this a bad thing? Adults can be total fuckfaces toward kids, and it rarely goes unchecked.

My dad threatens to do me in if I talk back to him, and I'm 18 and two inches taller than he is. Does it make things better? No, it just makes me hate his guts even more.
that's a response to Pledgeria's post that children grow up well behaved Dispite spankings, not because of them.

the fact is, Spankings and all these wonderful suggestions of raising a family is well and good, but each family dynamic is different, one child can react differently to scoldings than others. so to say "This is how to raise your kids" is wrong. there is no Universal Child Rearing system.

the only thing parents should do is keep their kids healthy and well, both physically and mentally. the methods are varied and what works with one doesn't mean will work on all.

yes. Time out is to get the child calm enough so that you can discuss things with them.

I just get annoyed when I hear parents "do you want a time out? no? well, then chill"

if the kid is throwing a fit, they need a time out, if you are being an ass, you need a time out. It's not something you threaten a kid with, it's supposed to help them and you, not be a "bad" thing.


OK, that's how I viewed them.

Arent time outs were meant to be calming periods rather than punitive?

Real question BTW not a smart allecky comment.
Time out is used as a punitive measure, but is only going to distract so he or she forgets why they were put in there in the first place.

yes. Time out is to get the child calm enough so that you can discuss things with them.

I just get annoyed when I hear parents "do you want a time out? no? well, then chill"

if the kid is throwing a fit, they need a time out, if you are being an ass, you need a time out. It's not something you threaten a kid with, it's supposed to help them and you, not be a "bad" thing.
I've seen Time outs used simultaniosly as punnishment as well as reflective. an active child will see time out as a punishment. even if you calmly talk to the child afterwards, they still will see time out as a punnishment.

By brother would threaten with a time out, and if the child doesn't listen, then the child is put in time out. then after the time passed, my brother (or his wife) would then talk to the child about what they were doing wrong. (usually, not listening to others, or not playing nicely with others.)

I've noticed that most extreme behavior comes from a child expecting that they are "in trouble". It causes them to lie, obfuscate, shake, scream, resort to tantrum.

The goal is to teach them how to calmly resolve problems. Making a mistake is something that can be solved. When they realize that all you want to do is help them solve the problem ("Mike won't share with me!"), and that you deal out fair solutions without getting angry, they'll listen to you.

I've seen Time outs used simultaniosly as punnishment as well as reflective. an active child will see time out as a punishment. even if you calmly talk to the child afterwards, they still will see time out as a punnishment.

By brother would threaten with a time out, and if the child doesn't listen, then the child is put in time out. then after the time passed, my brother (or his wife) would then talk to the child about what they were doing wrong. (usually, not listening to others, or not playing nicely with others.)
unacceptable behavior must be dealt with immediately, threatening time outs or giving warnings does not work.

at the first sign of unacceptable behavior, the child needs to be redirected or if it's a serious breech he needs to be taken aside and talked to about his actions and the consequences for them.

unacceptable behavior must be dealt with immediately, threatening time outs or giving warnings does not work.

at the first sign of unacceptable behavior, the child needs to be redirected or if it's a serious breech he needs to be taken aside and talked to about his actions and the consequences for them.

and boy, do you have to be consistent about that...

To get more cooperative (and presumably happy) children.

1. Play with them - I mean it - on the floor, in the dirt, etc.
2. Always try to pose what you want them to do as a set of alternatives among which they may freely choose, thus disguising the real aim of your statement. As an example, you can ask the child what they would like for lunch, rather than just making what you think is easy and forcing them to eat it. If they aren't hungry, be consistent about the rule (we eat when we're hungry at mealtime, and at regular snack time). Yes, you want them to eat, but you don't want them to get an eating disorder.
3. Kids love a regular schedule. It's summer now, so officially, bedtime is moved back to 9:30 PM. It's still bedtime though.
4. Turn off the TV. Turn off the TV. Turn off the TV. A lot of shows emphasize too much emotional drama (which I believe is more harmful than the violence), and encourage a horrific attitude (everyone is stupid and I know it is the mantra of the Disney Channel).
5. Don't overschedule your kids - you don't need to be the parent with every kid in three out-of-the-house team activities.
6. Spend time talking with them about what they want to talk about.
7. Their self-esteem is important. Be quicker to praise than to criticize.
8. Teach them not to tattle. Yes, you want them to tell the truth, but if you're grilling them about something minor, maybe you need to let it go. They should learn when it's important to tell you, and when it should be apparent that you should let it go.
9. Redirect them when you want them to stop something they are currently doing. With practice, it's easy.
10. Never promise something to a child and fail to deliver it.
11. They are smarter than you believe. Way smarter.


1: Yep. My dad did that, but he still did the bad things... Too often.
2: My dad never did this. Ever. Not once, not twice. He should've, because I wouldn't've ended up hating him so much.
3: I never had an official bedtime. That was one of the things he did right! I always got up early, no matter how late I stayed up (and I stayed up until at least 12:00 AM a lot as a kid).
4: I didn't watch TV that much when I was younger. A cartoon now and then, possibly a TV show... But it was mostly video games. I only really started watching TV when I turned 5, which was when I discovered Seinfeld and Frasier. :p
5: Yep. This is another thing my dad did right. The only schedule we had was school.
6: Heh. He never did this. To this day, I still can't talk to him about what I want to talk about (mostly because he makes fun of me for what I like, being the jerk he is).
7: It's weird --- My dad always praised me as a kid. Now all he ever does is criticise everything I do, whether it's cleaning the kitched, taking a shower, or even talking.
8: I always told the truth when I told on my brother, but he still abused me for it. It wasn't his fault, as he usually wasn't able to witness what had happened, but still... He took my brother's word over mine every single time, and that never sat well with me.
9: It was never redirection with him. A hand to the face, a hand to the ass, a hand to the forehead, or a foot to the ass was just fine with him. Asshole.
10: Oh god, this happened way too often. I was always promised newer, better toys. A better place to live. Did he ever come through? Probably like five times out of a thousand.
11: Got that right. I think my dad enjoyed hitting me so much because he knew I was smarter than he was at my age. Couldn't be much else behind those gleeful eyes when he was preparing to deliver his hand to my face...

that's a response to Pledgeria's post that children grow up well behaved Dispite spankings, not because of them.

the fact is, Spankings and all these wonderful suggestions of raising a family is well and good, but each family dynamic is different, one child can react differently to scoldings than others. so to say "This is how to raise your kids" is wrong. there is no Universal Child Rearing system.

the only thing parents should do is keep their kids healthy and well, both physically and mentally. the methods are varied and what works with one doesn't mean will work on all.

Yeah, definitely. I'm just saying his way of "raising" me didn't work at all, and I've become what I am despite him.

It's a lot like personal health. One person can eat a lot of shitty food and live to be a ripe, healthy 90 years old, while another can do the exact same thing and only make it to 60.

and boy, do you have to be consistent about that...
kids are information junkies, they want to know what happens when and why, it's important to provide them with that, and to always be consistent, kids thrive on the security that can provide.

Yeah, definitely. I'm just saying his way of "raising" me didn't work at all, and I've become what I am despite him.

It's a lot like personal health. One person can eat a lot of shitty food and live to be a ripe, healthy 90 years old, while another can do the exact same thing and only make it to 60.

I have spent most of my parenting focusing on NOT being like my father and mother. It's not everyday that you end up with a perfect negative example.

unacceptable behavior must be dealt with immediately, threatening time outs or giving warnings does not work.

at the first sign of unacceptable behavior, the child needs to be redirected or if it's a serious breech he needs to be taken aside and talked to about his actions and the consequences for them.
Threats do work, empty Threats however, don't. I agree that making exceptions only confuses and lessens the threat of punnishment.

I have spent most of my parenting focusing on NOT being like my father and mother. It's not everyday that you end up with a perfect negative example.

I'll most likely be doing that, too.

Yeah, definitely. I'm just saying his way of "raising" me didn't work at all, and I've become what I am despite him.

It's a lot like personal health. One person can eat a lot of shitty food and live to be a ripe, healthy 90 years old, while another can do the exact same thing and only make it to 60.
and I feel I turned out Ok, because of the spankings (note, not beatings, but spankings) that I recieved when I was a hell raiser.

I can only speculate what kind of behavior patters I would have if I was only put into Time out or Redirected.

I was a Sly little mongrol... according to my parents that is.

who knows, I might've turned into a Lawyer... or a SCotUS Judge... :eek:

and I feel I turned out Ok, because of the spankings (note, not beatings, but spankings) that I recieved when I was a hell raiser.

I can only speculate what kind of behavior patters I would have if I was only put into Time out or Redirected.

I was a Sly little mongrol... according to my parents that is.

who knows, I might've turned into a Lawyer... or a SCotUS Judge... :eek:

Heh. But the point with me was that I wasn't a hellraiser. I got hit for trivial shit that never warranted hitting.

That's one of the reasons I'll be attending a university way, way up North after my first semester here at the community college.

Threats do work, empty Threats however, don't. I agree that making exceptions only confuses and lessens the threat of punnishment.
but then you have to decide why your child is behaving well? is is because they are afraid of you? or afraid of the consequences?

or because they choose to behave, because they know it's the right thing to do.

that's a response to Pledgeria's post that children grow up well behaved Dispite spankings, not because of them.

the fact is, Spankings and all these wonderful suggestions of raising a family is well and good, but each family dynamic is different, one child can react differently to scoldings than others. so to say "This is how to raise your kids" is wrong. there is no Universal Child Rearing system.

the only thing parents should do is keep their kids healthy and well, both physically and mentally. the methods are varied and what works with one doesn't mean will work on all.

I agree, with the addition that some behaviors are 100% unacceptable. Inflicting pain is an unacceptable method of child-rearing, no matter who is doing it to whom and no matter what your "personal philosophy" happens to encompass.

Heh. But the point with me was that I wasn't a hellraiser. I got hit for trivial shit that never warranted hitting.

That's one of the reasons I'll be attending a university way, way up North after my first semester here at the community college.
Sounds like you were getting Beatings... not spankings. :(

Sounds like you were getting Beatings... not spankings. :(

In consideration of the relative size difference between an adult male and a 5-year-old boy, what may seem to be a light open-handed slap is a real concussive blow.

Sounds like you were getting Beatings... not spankings. :(

It was a bit of both. He spanked so hard that my ass would be red for at least two hours thereafter. His forehead and facial slaps would leave me with wonderful headaches (not to mention nice hand marks). And when he drop kicked me into my room, my tailbone almost got cracked.

Wow, this is really getting my blood pressure up! I know, I'll make fun of his build. Lessee...

...Okay, for starters, his feet look like rectangles. There's no real human shape to them, and his big toe is almost half an inch shorter than the one next to it. Then there's his little boy legs, which are way shorter than they should be (it looks awful when he wears sweatpants and a short shirt). Then there's his torso, which looks like it was meant for a Hobbit. His fingers look like sausages, and his head is seriously out of proportion with the rest of his oddly-shaped, small body.

There we go. Now I feel like shit for saying stuff about him, but that's life. At least I'm not a ruthless pig like his is.

but then you have to decide why your child is behaving well? is is because they are afraid of you? or afraid of the consequences?

or because they choose to behave, because they know it's the right thing to do.which is where, In my opinion, restraint on the parent's part as well as keeping open and honest communication between parent and child. most of my problems between me and my parents is that I never felt comfortable talking to them, sharing my problems with them. thus nowdays, while I will help them and don't mind living with them, I could never really tell them my problems. not because I was afraid of them, but because I feel there really was no real open communication between them and me.

It was a bit of both. He spanked so hard that my ass would be red for at least two hours thereafter. His forehead and facial slaps would leave me with wonderful headaches (not to mention nice hand marks). And when he drop kicked me into my room, my tailbone almost got cracked.
err... I think most would agree that the head strikes and the dropkicks cross the line into abuse.

In consideration of the relative size difference between an adult male and a 5-year-old boy, what may seem to be a light open-handed slap is a real concussive blow.
which is why Spankings are done to their henies, and usually when the child is wearing pants.

anything anywhere else and you run into the area called abuse.

which is why Spankings are done to their henies, and usually when the child is wearing pants.

anything anywhere else and you run into the area called abuse.

Pants on, eh? That was rare with dear old dad. It was always pants down (except for maybe once), with red hand marks aplenty.

It it was usually much more than just one spank. Most of the time it was three to five, all at the same, unbelievably hard force.

Pants on, eh? That was rare with dear old dad. It was always pants down (except for maybe once), with red hand marks aplenty.

It it was usually much more than just one spank. Most of the time it was three to five, all at the same, unbelievably hard force.
unfortunatly, I cannot and will not defend your father. the headstrikes and dropkicks put him outside of my definition of Spanking.

all I can say is good luck in not growing up to be your parents. :)

unfortunatly, I cannot and will not defend your father. the headstrikes and dropkicks put him outside of my definition of Spanking.

all I can say is good luck in not growing up to be your parents. :)

Don't worry, I had that covered ages ago. I grew up in a port town on the gulf coust of Texas around people from the Midwest and Northeast, which is where I got my accent.

He has the most unbearable East Texas accent (and drawl) you've ever heard, and needless to say, he hates the way I talk. Right back atcha, pops. :D

No.



No. Spanked children don't grow up healthy and well-adjusted because they were spanked. If they grow up healthy and well-adjusted, it's despite being spanked.

:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure spanking is legal over here.

yes, spanking is still legal in the UK, people keep trying to make it otherwise and no-one agrees a solution.......so the topic goes away for a while.

Work called me away before I got to post my response to my own question, so here it is:

I was the first child in my family so my parents were both new to the game. When I was very young, my father was physically harsh with me. So much so that we ended up having to do a major family overhaul while I was still quite young. He had realized that he was raising a child who was completely terrified of him, and he hated that so much that he still gets emotional talking about it to this day.

I will be thankful for as long as I live that he was strong enough to deal with his temper and his violence toward me, because we have developed an absolutely wonderful relationship that I do not think we could have had if he had continued hitting me.

My parents still retained spanking as a ultimate last-ditch course of action, but not as a form of dicipline. Spankings were used only when I (or, later, my brother) was completely out of control, and was used mostly for the shock value. A swat on the bum could cut through hysterics very quickly, particularly since it was used so rarely that it would come as a total surprise. Spanking was never used to dicipline me, or my brother.

I believe my parents made the right choice for our family. Never having lived in anyone else's shoes, I wouldn't presume to dictate what is best for another family. However, I do believe that using spanking to dicipline a child is lazy, and that many children will not respond favorably to corporal punishment. I think it is silly to claim that spanking will automatically "fix" problem children, or to claim that a disrespectful young person should have been spanked more as a child...that might have just made things worse, for all you know.

that's a response to Pledgeria's post that children grow up well behaved Dispite spankings, not because of them.

the fact is, Spankings and all these wonderful suggestions of raising a family is well and good, but each family dynamic is different, one child can react differently to scoldings than others. so to say "This is how to raise your kids" is wrong. there is no Universal Child Rearing system.

the only thing parents should do is keep their kids healthy and well, both physically and mentally. the methods are varied and what works with one doesn't mean will work on all.
Indeed! Two different kids within the same family can even be completely different. My brother simply would NOT respond to the "time-out" system, but I hated time-outs so much that even the threat of one was enough to get me to control myself.

Hit your child at least once each day. You may not know why, but they will.
:D

so what you learned was "if I don't get caught it's okay"
Isn't that the nature of rules? Without the consequence to act as a deterrent, there's no reason to obey them.

Isn't that the nature of rules? Without the consequence to act as a deterrent, there's no reason to obey them.
so it's okay to murder people if you don't get caught?

so it's okay to murder people if you don't get caught?

Pff, obviously!

so it's okay to murder people if you don't get caught?
From the point of view of the agent, if he doesn't see a downside to the activity, he has no special reason to avoid that activity.

That downside might be guilt. It might be punishment. It might be ostracism.

so it's okay to murder people if you don't get caught?

Its never ok to commit murder.

From the point of view of the agent, if he doesn't see a downside to the activity, he has no special reason to avoid that activity.

That downside might be guilt. It might be punishment. It might be ostracism.
so if he doesn't see a downside then that makes it okay?

so it's okay for a sociopath to do just about anything?

Incidentally, I was subjected to corporal punishment as a child, but not from my parents. My schools spanked and strapped children (I attended those schools 1980-1988).

I was occasionally spanked as a child, but my mother (a university professor) always viewed it as a failing on her part, believing if you need to spank your child, you have failed to discipline them. I hold to this view.

so if he doesn't see a downside then that makes it okay?

so it's okay for a sociopath to do just about anything?
From his point of view, sure.

The only way to direct his action is to provide a consequence he'd prefer to avoid (or a reward he'd like to receive). Otherwise, what incentive does he have?

I'm not making any moral claims, here. I'm saying that if you're trying to teach someone to behave a particular way, there needs to be either a stick or a carrot.

so it's okay to murder people if you don't get caught?

YAY!!! Slippery Slopes!!!!!

I'm not making any moral claims, here. I'm saying that if you're trying to teach someone to behave a particular way, there needs to be either a stick or a carrot.
I can't disagree with you there, but I prefer the carrot to the stick. ;)

Besides, all punishment does not have to be physical.

I recieved a couple spankings as a child, but only when I was quite young, since by the time I was about five, spanking was a no-no. I'm not a drugged-up delinquint because of it, but I don't think it really did much good, either. The fear of being hurt just made me more hysterical, instead of forcing me into submission.

YAY!!! Slippery Slopes!!!!!
he made the statement, I was just trying to clarify his meaning.

It's been a while since we've had a thread on this (I don't fancy grave-digging), and the subject has been threatening to de-rail at least one other thread. So here we go:

Do children benefit from receiving spankings? Will spanking a child increase the likelihood of them growing into a good adult?

It's a primitive punishment from bad parents....

he made the statement, I was just trying to clarify his meaning.

No, you were trying to exxagerate the statement.

It's a primitive punishment from bad parents....

Oh bullshit.

It's a primitive punishment from bad parents....

In your opinion.

No, you were trying to exxagerate the statement.
just trying to find out where the line is, it's much easier to start in the extreme and work backwards than to start out with something small ever increasing scope..

Aww my father got the belt when he was younger. As did most of my uncles.
And look how he turned out. *shudder*

;)

You know, I'd love to see statistics on things like what percentage of valedictorians were spanked as a child, or what percentage of incarcerated individuals were spanked, etc etc. Anybody know where one might find such data?

Oh bullshit.

Only bad parents who fail to disciplinize via civilized means (room lockdown, tv, computer cut, being grounded, allowance cut, etc...) would choose this physical punishment. Maybe even there are studies linking poor and uneducated parents with physical punishment but I'm too lazy to google it...

You know, I'd love to see statistics on things like what percentage of valedictorians were spanked as a child, or what percentage of incarcerated individuals were spanked, etc etc. Anybody know where one might find such data?


No where.
If you want good data that is.
The problem is differentiating between "spanking" and getting smacked or even abused.

Only bad parents who fail to disciplinize via civilized means (room lockdown, tv, computer cut, being grounded, allowance cut, etc...) would choose this physical punishment. Maybe even there are studies linking poor and uneducated parents with physical punishment but I'm too lazy to google it...

So w/ that we could say that not spanking encourages laziness in children? Unless you have some facts to back it up, it's only your biased opinion.

You know, I'd love to see statistics on things like what percentage of valedictorians were spanked as a child, or what percentage of incarcerated individuals were spanked, etc etc. Anybody know where one might find such data?

well smunkee posted these links earlier:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm

No where.
If you want good data that is.
The problem is differentiating between "spanking" and getting smacked or even abused.

And that's where even Smunkee's links admit the "studies" fail.

...Maybe even there are studies linking poor and uneducated parents with physical punishment but I'm too lazy to google it...

When I was lazy, my Nanny would spank me.

Spanking inevitably leads to alcoholism and more spanking.

You know, I'd love to see statistics on things like what percentage of valedictorians were spanked as a child, or what percentage of incarcerated individuals were spanked, etc etc. Anybody know where one might find such data?
probably not the unbiased info (http://www.nospank.net/stang2.htm)you are looking for, but it has stats, not sure how to verify them.

Spanking inevitably leads to alcoholism and more spanking.

No.

I can't disagree with you there, but I prefer the carrot to the stick. ;)

Besides, all punishment does not have to be physical.
Certainly not. Instead you could isolate them in small rooms or deprive them of food.

Frankly, I'd rather get the strap.

So w/ that we could say that not spanking encourages laziness in children? Unless you have some facts to back it up, it's only your biased opinion.

I thought "spanking = bad" as a common knowledge thing. But judging from the poll results, apperantly people from the less developed regions of the world think otherwise...


Study: Spanking kids leads to long-term bad behavior

August 14, 1997
Web posted at: 9:37 p.m. EDT (0137 GMT)

CHICAGO (CNN) -- In the long run, it turns out that sparing the rod may not spoil the child after all. Indeed, according to a study released Thursday, the opposite may be true: Spanking a child may produce long-term ill effects.

Based on interviews with the mothers of about 3,000 children, researcher Murray Straus of the University of New Hampshire found that corporal punishment is counterproductive, resulting in more antisocial behavior by children in later years.

Parents may not see this "boomerang" effect because it happens over weeks or months, according to the study, which appears in the latest issue of the American Medical Association's Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine.

"Spanking chips away at the child's liking for, and trust of, the parent," Straus said. "One has to look at long-term effects of these things."

Researchers analyzed survey data from 807 mothers of children ages 6 to 9, taken in 1988 and 1990. They compared levels of antisocial behavior among spanked and unspanked children over that interval.

The more spanking a child received at the beginning of the study, the higher level of antisocial behavior at the end, according to the researchers.

Antisocial behavior was defined as cheating, lying, disobedience at school, breaking things deliberately, not feeling sorry after misbehaving or not getting along with teachers.

The study found that the higher levels of antisocial behavior were independent of other traits that could affect that behavior, such as a family's socioeconomic status and the amount of support parents give their children.

Parental warmth and support do tend to lessen the effects of spanking but do not cancel them, Straus said.

The results of this study are likely to be debated, because previous research has shown that 90 percent of U.S. parents spank their children. A majority of pediatricians and psychologists also do not discourage occasional corporal punishment.

In addition, corporal punishment in the classroom is still legal in 23 states.

Many parents spank only as a last resort and say they feel horrible about it afterward. Some would rather use other forms of discipline, if only they would work. Parenting classes offer advice about alternatives, because occasional swats can sometimes lead to harsher hitting.

Psychologist Irwin Hyman, author of the book "The Case Against Spanking," agrees with Straus' study.

"There is never a reason to spank a child, period," Hyman said. "There's no other place in society where someone can ... smack another person. So why should we be able to do this to children?"

But Ted and Andrea Fouriezo, who have four children under the age of 6, defend spanking as a necessary means of setting and enforcing limits with their kids.

"We feel that the parents have to be the parents," Andrea Fouriezo said. "You can't let the children run circles around you, which they will. Kids want to push their limits."

"There (are) also times where they're trying to hurt themselves and we just have to stop them, especially when they were (at) the toddler stage -- touching hot plates or trying to get themselves up on the stove," said Ted Fouriezo.

Correspondent Pat Etheridge and Reuters contributed to this report.


http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/14/nfm.spanking/

No where.
If you want good data that is.
The problem is differentiating between "spanking" and getting smacked or even abused.
Well, I'd even be interested in what percentage of X group report having been spanked. Despite the obvious problems with relying on self-report, I think it could be illuminating.

Here's a couple of things I've found, but they were just through Google searching (and therefore should be taken with an extremely large grain of salt):

"A sampling of 4,888 Ontario residents 15 and older who were slapped or spanked "sometimes" or "often" showed a significantly higher (twofold) anxiety-disorder rate than their peers who had "never" been slapped or spanked."
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0838/is_2000_Jan-Feb/ai_58747263

Dr. Gershoff’s study found that parental use of corporal punishment was related to such child behaviors and experiences as:

* Greater Aggression
* Poorer Internalization of Moral Values
* Higher Rates of Delinquency and Antisocial Behavior
* Poorer Quality of Parent-Child Relationships
* Poorer Child Mental Health
* Being a Victim of Child Abuse
* Abusing Own Child and Spouse

The study also found that the use of corporal punishment was associated with the short-term effect of a child more quickly complying with parental directions.
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284539.pdf


On the other hand (ouch, no pun intended):

"A 1992 study in Ohio showed that 70% of 800 family physicians and 59% of 400 pediatricians supported spanking."
"A survey of pediatricians found that 77% supported use of corporal punishment (White, 1993)."
http://www.smartspanking.com/statistics.html

If a parent is angry when "spanking" they are probably abusing.
If a parent does not explain to the child what behavior was wrong and what the expected behaviour is, any form of punishment or reward is not prodcutive and may be detrimental.

Many, if not most of the accounts of being "spanked" in this thread aren't even spankings, they are physical abuse at worst or at best spankings paired up with verbal and or emotional abuse.

I have never, and will never spank my children in anger.
I always take time to explain why and what behaviour they can learn/exhibit that will ensure the spanking won't occur or re-occur and what life trait the expected behaviour will build and it's importance.
I never spank my children without ending in hugs and sincere expressions of love and understanding on both of our parts.


My son will actually ask for a spanking rather than deal with the consequences of his errors now on occasion. Recently, after a small "infraction" that certainly didn't warrent punishment he told me, "Dad, I know it was wrong, but rather than a long conversation, can I just have a spanking instead and say I learned my lesson? It's so much quicker!"

probably not the unbiased info (http://www.nospank.net/stang2.htm)you are looking for, but it has stats, not sure how to verify them.
That's a good start, I'ma check it out...thanks!

I thought "spanking = bad" as a common knowledge thing. But judging from the poll results, apperantly people from the less developed regions of the world think otherwise...



http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/14/nfm.spanking/

Oh, look, more insults and demonizing of the opposition. I guess that comes from not being spanked.

Of course if you read other studies, is shows that there is a division between abuse and spanking. But you wouldn't want to read those, now would you.

So there are several different studies (with links) showing that physical punishment leads to negative effects down the road (which seems like common sense to me). Are there any studies that show otherwise? Any at all?

Of course if you read other studies, is shows that there is a division between abuse and spanking. But you wouldn't want to read those, now would you.
I would. Can you share some links?

Oh, look, more insults and demonizing of the opposition. I guess that comes from not being spanked.

Of course if you read other studies, is shows that there is a division between abuse and spanking. But you wouldn't want to read those, now would you.
okay, where are your studies? where is your proof?

you run around saying we have poor debating style, but I have yet to see you say anything useful for your position.

So there are several different studies (with links) showing that physical punishment leads to negative effects down the road (which seems like common sense to me). Are there any studies that show otherwise? Any at all?
I have not found any yet, but I'm just wading through Google right now...most of the links that are coming up are to anti-spanking organizations, which are obviously going to give a skewed perception of the subject.

"A sampling of 4,888 Ontario residents 15 and older who were slapped or spanked

Useless.

IMHO

One additional note:

The question in the poll simply asks whether spanking should be used in rearing children. I answered "Yes" to this question because I feel that there are situations in which spanking is appropriate.

However, if the question were to read, "Do you believe spanking is a good way to dicipline children," I would answer "No."

Basically, what I'm telling you is that the wording of my poll question kind of sucks. Sorry 'bout that.

Useless.

IMHO


how so?

Oh, look, more insults and demonizing of the opposition. I guess that comes from not being spanked.

Of course if you read other studies, is shows that there is a division between abuse and spanking. But you wouldn't want to read those, now would you.


There is no reason not to demonize primitive punishments. Resorting to violence (like spanking) is usually cave man behaviour.
About abuse and spanking, there is a difference. But this study focuses on the bad effects of spanking. Any study dating newer than the one in CNN link showing spanking has no effect? I think not.

okay, where are your studies? where is your proof?

you run around saying we have poor debating style, but I have yet to see you say anything useful for your position.

The very links you posted from the tolerance sites states that many studies failed at dividing abusive behavior from spanking.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/spanking_poll021108.html
http://www.focusonyourchild.com/hottopics/a0001043.cfm
http://www.greece.k12.ny.us/taylor/topics/spanking.htm
http://www.osuokc.onenet.net/~engl1213n/argueessayex.htm

There is no reason not to demonize primitive punishments. Resorting to violence (like spanking) is usually cave man behaviour.
About abuse and spanking, there is a difference. But this study focuses on the bad effects of spanking. Any study dating newer than the one in CNN link showing spanking has no effect? I think not.

And yet you continue. Can you make any arguements w/o insults?

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.

"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."

Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."

Another study:


Research
Spanking can lead to more bad behavior by children

By Jared Wadley
News Service

A new U-M study that used stronger statistical controls than previous research lends additional support to the belief that corporal punishment can be detrimental to children.

Andrew Grogan-Kaylor, assistant professor in the School of Social Work and the study's author, used data from three years (1994, 1996 and 1998) of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, which examined the effects of corporal punishment. The analysis attempted to determine if corporal punishment, which typically involves spanking, affected children's antisocial behavior in later years.

"Even minimal amounts of spanking can lead to an increased likelihood in antisocial behavior by children," says Grogan-Kaylor, whose findings are published in the September issue of Social Work Research.

In addition, the study found no evidence for differences in the impact of physical punishment across racial and ethnic groups.

Corporal punishment has been part of a long-standing debate in how parents discipline their children. Some researchers believe corporal punishment will lead to compliance to desired behaviors among children. Other experts say it will teach children that the use of physical aggression is normal and appropriate to solve conflicts.

The U-M study analyzed data from more than 1,800 children. Mothers were asked about their children's particular bad behavior, such as cheating/lying, bullying, breaking things deliberately or getting in trouble in school. In addition, they were asked the frequency of times they spanked their child in the past week.

"This study provides further methodologically rigorous support for the idea that corporal punishment is not an effective or appropriate disciplinary strategy," Grogan-Kaylor says.

Parents, he says, should use other forms of discipline.


http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0405/Sept13_04/24.shtml

The very links you posted from the tolerance sites states that many studies failed at dividing abusive behavior from spanking.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/spanking_poll021108.html
http://www.focusonyourchild.com/hottopics/a0001043.cfm
http://www.greece.k12.ny.us/taylor/topics/spanking.htm
http://www.osuokc.onenet.net/~engl1213n/argueessayex.htm
Yes, that's true, there can often be a lot of trouble with that.

With that much admitted, do you happen to have any studies in which the findings support spanking as an effective and non-harmful form of dicipline? I'm convinced that there have to be some, since otherwise this debate would long since have died out, but I can't seem to find any myself.

My son will actually ask for a spanking rather than deal with the consequences of his errors now on occasion. Recently, after a small "infraction" that certainly didn't warrent punishment he told me, "Dad, I know it was wrong, but rather than a long conversation, can I just have a spanking instead and say I learned my lesson? It's so much quicker!"
That suggests he views the discussion as the real punishment.

The very links you posted from the tolerance sites states that many studies failed at dividing abusive behavior from spanking.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/spanking_poll021108.html
http://www.focusonyourchild.com/hottopics/a0001043.cfm
http://www.greece.k12.ny.us/taylor/topics/spanking.htm
http://www.osuokc.onenet.net/~engl1213n/argueessayex.htm
the first link has a poll that says that parents spank their children

the last 3 are links to opinion peices, not studies.

in fact the second link goes to "focus on the family" website which is biased, way biased.

a couple links I found but have not read thru:

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/rdurrunl.75.pdf

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/sweden2.html

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/rdurrunl.75.pdf

how so?
Because the sample includes slapping, which I'm much more likely to characterise as abuse.

Yes, that's true, there can often be a lot of trouble with that.

With that much admitted, do you happen to have any studies in which the findings support spanking as an effective and non-harmful form of dicipline? I'm convinced that there have to be some, since otherwise this debate would long since have died out, but I can't seem to find any myself.

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/

the first link has a poll that says that parents spank their children

the last 3 are links to opinion peices, not studies.

in fact the second link goes to "focus on the family" website which is biased, way biased.

And you've not posted any "biased" sources?

http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/
Whew, ok, I'd better get reading! Thanks!

And thanks to everybody else who is posting links and so forth.

Because the sample includes slapping, which I'm much more likely to characterise as abuse.


why? how is it any different? the part of the body hit? it says nothing of the force of the strike.

And you've not posted any "biased" sources?
other than the one that I told Bottle was probably not unbiased? no, I don't think so, I posted links to actual studies.