NationStates Jolt Archive

Actions of a terrorist group =/= an 'invasion' from a neighbouring state. An invasion would be from the Lebanese themselves, not a seperate and disconnected group.


That's news to me.

Could you enlighten me as to the unfettered movements of the British Para's and Special Forces throughout the Republic of Ireland? A link or source will suffice.



No, I believe Hezb'allah have 'given them the keys to the house'.
Hezb'allah =/= Lebanon.


1988

March: Three IRA members are shot dead by British special forces in Gibraltar, where they are allegedly planning an attack on the British garrison.

Nine days later, during their funeral, a lone loyalist gunman, Michael Stone, kills three mourners in a gun and grenade attack on the Milltown cemetery in west Belfast.

Four days later two soldiers in civilian clothes drive into the funeral cortege of one of the IRA men killed by Stone and are abducted, beaten, stripped and shot dead


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/northern_ireland/10657.stm

The Brits did what they wanted to who they wanted when and where they wanted to .

there's tons more thats the shortest link .
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0824778146&id=R60c_2nCcnYC&pg=PA387&lpg=PA387&ots=FzrSG3r6LT&dq=british+special+forces+in++southern+ireland&sig=LdqDZZQAVyLS9WbTDLKPf6Ep8Tg

Hezbolla is supported by Iran and since when are they the government of lebenon ? If Lebenon wants a secure southern border they should keep terrorist organizations out on the south . Since they cant israel must .

The Brits did what they wanted to who they wanted when and where they wanted to .

*raises eyebrow*

Ok. First off.

You do know where Gibralter is in relation to the Republic of Ireland geographically....right?

Second, Stone was a terrorist- not a member of the British military.

Third, 'Death on the Rock' actually fucked over the SAS and British Government badly in public opinion.


Hezbolla is supported by Iran and since when are they the government of lebenon ?
The IRA was funded by US citizens. I don't see British troops storming Boston *looks out window*
Hezb'allah is not the government of Lebanon, and neither is Iran.

If Lebenon wants a secure southern border they should keep terrorist organizations out on the south . Since they cant israel must .

Again, back to Northern Ireland. If the British wanted a secure 'southern' border, they must have invaded the Republic of Ireland.... oh wait. That didn't happen, wonder why.

*ponders*

*raises eyebrow*

Ok. First off.

You do know where Gibralter is in relation to the Republic of Ireland geographically....right?

Second, Stone was a terrorist- not a member of the British military.

Third, 'Death on the Rock' actually fucked over the SAS and British Government badly in public opinion.


The IRA was funded by US citizens. I don't see British troops storming Boston *looks out window*
Hezb'allah is not the government of Lebanon, and neither is Iran.



Again, back to Northern Ireland. If the British wanted a secure 'southern' border, they must have invaded the Republic of Ireland.... oh wait. That didn't happen, wonder why.

*ponders*

go read the link ..as I said the brits went where they wanted to go when they wanted . be it GIBRALTAR or hell .

you really should read a book once in a while .

and while you are at it how is lebenon in any way relevant to Ireland..Considering the British had troops based in Both north and South ?

go read the link ..as I said the brits went where they wanted to go when they wanted . be it GIBRALTAR or hell .

Ah. So in fact your eariler statement of and I guess the para's and other British special troops that went where ever they felt like in ireland do not count ?
is complete and utter horse-shit.



and while you are at it how is lebenon in any way relevant to Ireland
If you'd think about the scenario a little: Terrorist group attacks institutions in another sovereign state- some hide across a border.

..Considering the British had troops based in Both north and South ?
*blinks*

Ok. Huh?
Could you please link/source me some bases/troops the British military had in the Republic of Ireland? Thank you.

Ah. So in fact your eariler statement of
is complete and utter horse-shit. read the pages included in the LINK
then tell me about horse shit utter or otherwise .




If you'd think about the scenario a little: Terrorist group attacks institutions in another sovereign state- some hide across a border.

Again the Republic of ireland cooperating with the British actually chased those hiding or supplying..how do you see that in Lebenon ?


*blinks*

Ok. Huh?
Could you please link/source me some bases/troops the British military had in the Republic of Ireland? Thank you.

I gave you the links ..you have to actually read them ..the book is actually opened to the page you should read ..unless you cant get pdf.

Again ...its way off topic talking about the history of ireland VS hamas attacking israel..go start an Irish history thread . Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland .

I gave you the links ..you have to actually read them ..the book is actually opened to the page you should read ..unless you cant get pdf.


Oh my sweet sweet God.
Did you even look at that 'book link' you put down? It deals with the 1920-1 Irish War of Independence. Nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with Northern Ireland, the IRA bombings of another sovereign state and sheltering in a neighbouring 'friendly' country or the supposed British Armys free movement throughout the Republic of Ireland. I mean....damn. Stop before you hurt yourself, please!

Again ...its way off topic talking about the history of ireland VS hamas attacking israel..go start an Irish history thread . Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland .
Or, I could draw comparisons between the two- especially since you asked in the first place Show me what you read or whatever made you think its not legal ., before I went on to compare and contrast.

Now run along.

Mature.

dude...take joke for cripes sake ......:p

No Ultra, I'm asking you what you meant when you said Israel?

Did you mean the IDF leaving the West Bank (WB)?
Did you mean the PA gaining full sovereign control in the WB?
Did you mean Israeli settlers leaving?
Did you mean the illegal settlements being earmarked for destruction?

You weren't too clear when you said ' when they finally got Israel out of the West Bank'

I meant when they finaly had made progress getting Israel to move ANYTHING from the West Bank...if you recall thats what the negotiations were about..a staged withdrawl ...like Gaza..removal of settlements etc.

Oh my sweet sweet God.
Did you even look at that 'book link' you put down? It deals with the 1920-1 Irish War of Independence. Nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with Northern Ireland, the IRA bombings of another sovereign state and sheltering in a neighbouring 'friendly' country or the supposed British Armys free movement throughout the Republic of Ireland. I mean....damn. Stop before you hurt yourself, please!


Originally Posted by Ultra
and I guess the para's and other British special troops that went where ever they felt like in ireland do not count ?

I said ...as you so nicely put in BOLD black print ..british Para's..excuse me for not meaning the British Army invaded..I was refering to British special forces .as I said who worked along with the Republic of ireland.. NOT
British Armys free movement How did you get that ?
and i also took the whole history of the " troubles ' into account..I did not just limit it to one year . just to see if you had even a smidgen of a chance of being close .


Or, I could draw comparisons between the two- especially since you asked in the first place , before I went on to compare and contrast.

Now run along.

There is no comparison . It doesnt exist ..Lebenon is in no way " cooperating " with Israel..that we know of .

Let me put it this way: the British Empar did not stop slavery by educating slavers.
We stopped that with British Hearts of Oak, and British Gallant Tars - and round shot fired by British cannon.
No mediation - but a morally clear total rejection of peace with shariatic evildoers.

Hearts of Oak are our ships
Gallant Tars are our men
We always are ready
Steady, boys steady!

are you mad? who do you think started the whole slave shipment to the american continent and who made the biggest profits? the british. how do you think they became to realise that it had to end?

dp

Wait a tick?

Is the IDF run by schoolboys or something?

"We went into Southern Lebanon, an act of war, and we were shocked when 2 people were killed and another 2 captured, all of whom were soldiers".

Well yes... it was an offensive action into another state's land... what did you really expect to happen?
Oh and the Isrealis are telling everyone on their side of the border to go into their bomb shelters. This worries me, a lot.

Faulty Cause and effect.

The Hezbollah pulled the same trick the other group did, they snunk INTO Israel and kidnapped two soldiers, to try and make Israel stop blasting Gaza to pieces. Instead Israel took their Army and followed the Hezbollah into their lair, South Lebanon.

They Invaded AFTER the two guys were kidnapped.

USA give us only 2 bilions of dollars. US tax payers give $13.7 million per day to the Jewish State.. that money is used largely to pay for the tanks and Bombers that the Palestinean refugees hate so much..

All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.

US tax payers give $13.7 million per day to the Jewish State.. that money is used largely to pay for the tanks and Bombers that the Palestinean refugees hate so much..

All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.:rolleyes:


And how did you arrive at that figure ? if its true I want some Ocean front property in a no shelling zone ...and I want it today .

US tax payers give $13.7 million per day to the Jewish State.. that money is used largely to pay for the tanks and Bombers that the Palestinean refugees hate so much..

All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.
Meh, better them then the other things this government would spend the money on.

And how did you arrive at that figure ?
I'm not sure he arrived at it at all.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#lies

The goverment...And the jewish community in USA gives you how much?

Just asking


Here is a link explaining a bit about the relationship of US-Israel aid.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Cost of current Iraq engagement:

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

In my opinion it is cheaper to have others do your bidding.

There is no comparison . It doesnt exist ..Lebenon is in no way " cooperating " with Israel..that we know of .
not only that, there are also important difference in the group's goals.
IRA aren't try to kill english people or destroy england. hizbulla does try to destroy israel in co-operation with hammas and iran.

Israel's one of the most cost-effective allies we have. If we have a clandestine mission, they're gonna help us out. If we have a downed pilot, they'll go and get them. If Iran acts up, Israel wants dibs too.

And I'm jewish, so I kinda have some preference towards my long-lost brethren.

Wow... big topic.

I'm not joining the army. Never.


And yet you seem to advocate lots of mass bombings, executions without trial and other assorted use of military might.

A perfect benchmark of the 101st Keyboarders.

Now they have bombed an airport and killed more civilians than the number of their soldiers that were kidnapped. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because someone lives on the other side of a border, their lives aren't as important as someone who lives within a border.

I wonder what will come of this... I think Israel is playing the terrorist card too much.

So when hezzbolla attacks Israel from southern Lebenon and kidnaps two soldiers..an act of war..Israel has no right to respond ?

Israel's response is far in excess of the initial event. Do you see any nation invading Colombia because the FARC has kidnapped/killed any of it's citizens?


And your solution is to have israel and Iran lob nukes at each other .

Israel wants to live, and the mullahs who run Iran certainly want to stay alive too. Right now, Israel has no counterpart to keep it's hands in check. It's playing the game with a chainsaw when a scalpel will do. A nuclear Iran will ensure that Israel will use less high explosives and more proxy work, probably a greater involvement of the Mossad than the IDF.

And before you pull that "exterminate all the Jews" argument on me, name me a single Mullah who has gone around strapping on a flak jacket and storming IDF positions with a gun. The leaders value their skin and they don't buy that bullshit about martyring themselves. That's just a convenient idea to convince the troops, but not themselves.

And no, they won't give away their nukes either to hezbollah or hamas. That would produce the same result as if they had launched themselves. They'd be the only other candidate to target and they know it.

Now they have bombed an airport and killed more civilians than the number of their soldiers that were kidnapped. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because someone lives on the other side of a border, their lives aren't as important as someone who lives within a border.

I wonder what will come of this... I think Israel is playing the terrorist card too much.
add to the 2 kidnnapped, 8 death of soldiers, and 1 death of civilian from the missles they launch on us (which make many significat injuried civilians).
also this is direct continue of gaza strip with 1 kiddnapped, 2 death of soldiers, and missles on israeli cities.
in the fight between israel and the terrorists, there is one group that don't value any human lives and try to kill as much as it can. this group isn't israel.

Israel's response is far in excess of the initial event. Do you see any nation invading Colombia because the FARC has kidnapped/killed any of it's citizens?few qwestions so we may continue.
-did colombia support or aid the FARC?
-did colombia tried to fight the FARC?
-what are the FARC goals?
-what is the farrest israeli actions which you still see as legitimate?

Israel wants to live, and the mullahs who run Iran certainly want to stay alive too. only they don't care for their own popalation. they will buy for themselves neuclear shelters, and they won't had problem nuke israel. even if it cost destruction of iran.

Right now, Israel has no counterpart to keep it's hands in check. It's playing the game with a chainsaw when a scalpel will do. A nuclear Iran will ensure that Israel will use less high explosives and more proxy work, probably a greater involvement of the Mossad than the IDF.as iran sponsered and patronize the terror organizations of hammas and hizbulla, neuclear iran will let them go further in their terror attacks, because they will know that israel isn't free to counter-attack.
neuclear iran will also threat saudia, egypt, jordan and most of the other middle east, and will make fast chain reaction which end in nucleared middle east. the countries which won't be nucleared will just make ally with nucleared ones or increase their WMDs abilities.
while the middle east is such complex area, you don't need me to understand it isn't such bright idea. especially when some of this countries support terror organization, and the circumances may be fatal.

And before you pull that "exterminate all the Jews" argument on me, name me a single Mullah who has gone around strapping on a flak jacket and storming IDF positions with a gun. The leaders value their skin and they don't buy that bullshit about martyring themselves. That's just a convenient idea to convince the troops, but not themselves.they will be in their safe shelters. why would they be concerned for the death of themselves?

And no, they won't give away their nukes either to hezbollah or hamas. That would produce the same result as if they had launched themselves. They'd be the only other candidate to target and they know it.they are more sophisticated than that, but this is thought worthy idea.

few qwestions so we may continue.
-did colombia support or aid the FARC?
-did colombia tried to fight the FARC?
-what are the FARC goals?
-what is the farrest israeli actions which you still see as legitimate?

#1 Colombia is providing shelter and is not really doing much to get rid of the FARC. A similar charge levelled against Lebanon I believe.

#2 Look at 1

#3 Irrelevant in the light of their actions don't you think?

#4 huh? What the heck is farrest? Fartfest? :p


only they don't care for their own popalation. they will buy for themselves neuclear shelters, and they won't had problem nuke israel. even if it cost destruction of iran.

A ruler of a great big glass bowl is a ruler with no power and is subsequently quite easily deposed by the person who glassed them. A mullah in power who can't see that far probably doesn't exist. In a dog eat dog world, idiots don't get into power unless they've got massive family backing and even then there are limits.


as iran sponsered and patronize the terror organizations of hammas and hizbulla, neuclear iran will let them go further in their terror attacks, because they will know that israel isn't free to counter-attack.

Israel has never been without the ability to counter-attack, just not always with the IDF. A nuclear Iran would see Israel resorting more to the Mossad to deal with terrorist organizations than the sledgehammer that is the IDF.

There would also be significantly less international backlash unless they did something stupid like bomb a hospital full of civilians and got caught.


neuclear iran will also threat saudia, egypt, jordan and most of the other middle east, and will make fast chain reaction which end in nucleared middle east. the countries which won't be nucleared will just make ally with nucleared ones or increase their WMDs abilities.

So all the national powers would have nukes. Would they risk firing a nuclear weapon and becoming the target of retaliatory strikes? Only lunatics can get that far, and the only lunatic in power is hmmmm....nobody. Evil bastards by the bucketload, but no loonies. Except maybe Kim Jung.


while the middle east is such complex area, you don't need me to understand it isn't such bright idea. especially when some of this countries support terror organization, and the circumances may be fatal.

they will be in their safe shelters. why would they be concerned for the death of themselves?

Safe in their shelters maybe, but they will lose their country in the process, and as a result, all their power. And without power, they become easy targets for elimination. Something that most countries would agree with if they started off a nuclear exchange.

Remember, a dictator will always move in a way that assures his own power and the ability to wield said power. Destroying the country the rule by nuclear suicide is not the way to go about it.

Even during the 6 day war, the countries who attempted to destroy Israel could have done it, but only if they were willing to strip their country of everything and feed it into the war machine. It might have resulted in Israel's destruction, but it would have certainly ensured those countries would be forever ruined beyond repair.

None of them went that far.

add to the 2 kidnnapped, 8 death of soldiers, and 1 death of civilian from the missles they launch on us (which make many significat injuried civilians).

And how does this justify an invasion of Lebanon? Israel talks of defending it's own borders and insisting that other recognise Israeli self determination and stop violence against it, yet violate that principle in turn in Palestine and now Lebanon.

also this is direct continue of gaza strip with 1 kiddnapped, 2 death of soldiers, and missles on israeli cities.

Nothing to do with Lebanon.

in the fight between israel and the terrorists, there is one group that don't value any human lives and try to kill as much as it can. this group isn't israel.

There is a group that creates perfect breeding gounds for terror and gives terrorists any excuse they need to justify their actions to ordinary civilians - the opposite of which must happen before the terrorists can be defeated. This group is Israel.

#1 Colombia is providing shelter and is not really doing much to get rid of the FARC. A similar charge levelled against Lebanon I believe.

#2 Look at 1lebanon don't do nothing against hizbulla. it isn't like they tried to rid of it, but failed.

#3 Irrelevant in the light of their actions don't you think?not really. there is difference between criminals (organization which attack mainly for money and such), freedom fighters (who fight for diplomatic or territorial achievements) and terrorists.
hizbulla and hamas are terror organizations, and with them we can't negotiate.

#4 huh? What the heck is farrest? Fartfest? :pfine, farthest.
english rules may be weird sometimes.
still, the qwestion stand.


A ruler of a great big glass bowl is a ruler with no power and is subsequently quite easily deposed by the person who glassed them. A mullah in power who can't see that far probably doesn't exist. In a dog eat dog world, idiots don't get into power unless they've got massive family backing and even then there are limits.they aren't sensible men, and they probably don't think in the western way.
they stated their goal is to destroy israel. they want this nukes for a reason.


Israel has never been without the ability to counter-attack, just not always with the IDF. A nuclear Iran would see Israel resorting more to the Mossad to deal with terrorist organizations than the sledgehammer that is the IDF.we didn't only because we always take advantage for ourselves in the total military power balance. if iran get nukes, we lose that advantage and significat part from our counter-attack abilities.
the mossad isn't build to deal with day to day prevention of terror, nor for fight against the terror organization.
anyway, mossad operation will had as much limited as the actions of IDF. it isn't like iran didn't know who did that.

There would also be significantly less international backlash unless they did something stupid like bomb a hospital full of civilians and got caught.we don't aim the civilians, but in any war there are accidents which unfortunally cost death of civilians.
the terrorist who use human shields aim on civilians, and they don't bomb hospitals only because we stop them until now. however they do bomb kindergardens, schools, busses, resturants, and every other place they succeed to reach.
the terror and the iranian threat won't stop if we reduce our accidents rate to 0% (which no army can), but if we will no longer exist.


So all the national powers would have nukes. Would they risk firing a nuclear weapon and becoming the target of retaliatory strikes? Only lunatics can get that far, and the only lunatic in power is hmmmm....nobody. Evil bastards by the bucketload, but no loonies. Except maybe Kim Jung.
they maybe aren't loonies, but they are ideoligical fundementalists. they support terror, and they will be glad to wipe us from the map. how much you trust they will keep this nukes far from terror organizations, or as threat on israel for her actions?
I don't.

Safe in their shelters maybe, but they will lose their country in the process, and as a result, all their power. And without power, they become easy targets for elimination. Something that most countries would agree with if they started off a nuclear exchange.the countrey is just a tool in the way for their goals. they can just run away from their country, hid, and be the muslim saviors who destroyed israel, enjoying the stage of bin-ladin and such.

Remember, a dictator will always move in a way that assures his own power and the ability to wield said power. Destroying the country the rule by nuclear suicide is not the way to go about it.hitler ruin his own rescures in order to preserve the mass destruction in the death camps. russia of stalin would be much stronger if he won't kill scores of miliions from his own citizens.
some dictators aren't think too much about the force of their countrey.
kim jong-il know he can do whatever he want to, because nobody will touch him and his nukes.
iran see that example, and take it as "green light" for their plans.
Even during the 6 day war, the countries who attempted to destroy Israel could have done it, but only if they were willing to strip their country of everything and feed it into the war machine. It might have resulted in Israel's destruction, but it would have certainly ensured those countries would be forever ruined beyond repair.

None of them went that far.
in the 6 days war, we could conquer the capitols of syria, lebanon, jordan and egypt. we were dozens of kilometers range from that but we go back because of universal pressure. if we didn't all those countries would be part of history. anyway, they were still preety much ruined after the war.
that were the case in most of the wars we had. if they had some secret forces that can eliminate us, they succeed to hid them very well.

And how does this justify an invasion of Lebanon? Israel talks of defending it's own borders and insisting that other recognise Israeli self determination and stop violence against it, yet violate that principle in turn in Palestine and now Lebanon.we ask them to act against the terrorists, and they said they are too weak and can't control the area so they aren't responsible. if they can't they shouldn't have problem if we do it for ourselves.


Nothing to do with Lebanon. both organization are co-operated and sponsered by iran. both search every oppurtunity they can to attack and kidnapp israeli soldiers. both want the destruction of israel.
they are the same evil, only with different shape.



There is a group that creates perfect breeding gounds for terror and gives terrorists any excuse they need to justify their actions to ordinary civilians - the opposite of which must happen before the terrorists can be defeated. This group is Israel.they don't need that excuse, their propoganda machine will continue with all the force even if we pullout from territories and negotiate (propoganda:"terror is succeed. we should do it more"), or ignore their acts (propoganda:"israel afraid from us. we can take more drasticals acts against them").

your tries to justify terror (any terror, any time), won't help anybody. they just ensure the continue of the bloodship.

And as to how can they move there, more likely than not, it was because Lebanon can't really stop them short of declaring war, although that's a bit moot since Israel has already invaded them strictly speaking

So what was Israel's reaction to repeated missile strikes from Lebanon supposed to be?

So what was Israel's reaction to repeated missile strikes from Lebanon supposed to be?

In this order,

1. Pressure the Lebanese government, give them an ultimatum to stop activity.
2. Take it to the Security Council, as any other country would. Get sanctions on Lebanon - If Israel wants it, America will deliver.
3. Mobilise troops, threaten invasion.
4. Then, if all the above fail, start invasion. And don't destroy civilian airports, that doesn't help either.

So what was Israel's reaction to repeated missile strikes from Lebanon supposed to be?
and this is the least they did (although the last strike they launch kill israeli woman). they trying to kidnapp soldiers and light burns in the area for long time. unfortunally, now they succeed to kill 8 soldiers and kidnapp 2 more.

we ask them to act against the terrorists, and they said they are too weak and can't control the area so they aren't responsible. if they can't they shouldn't have problem if we do it for ourselves.

If they are too weak, then perhaps Israel could do more to help the Lebanese government remove these terrorists. An invastion is simply OTT for an initial response.

both organization are co-operated and sponsered by iran. both search every oppurtunity they can to attack and kidnapp israeli soldiers. both want the destruction of israel.
they are the same evil, only with different shape.

True, but irrelevant to the current discussion.

they don't need that excuse, their propoganda machine will continue with all the force even if we pullout from territories and negotiate (propoganda:"terror is succeed. we should do it more"), or ignore their acts (propoganda:"israel afraid from us. we can take more drasticals acts against them").

your tries to justify terror (any terror, any time), won't help anybody. they just ensure the continue of the bloodship.

Do not put words in my mouth. I neither justify or condone acts of terror against Israel. My point was, which man is more likely to become a terrorist? One under a full military occupation, where there are checkpoints, barriers and a failing economy, or one under a growing free state, where these obstacles have been removed?

Only when there is an independent state can the terrorists be defeated, and Israel finally have true security for its people.

In this order,

1. Pressure the Lebanese government, give them an ultimatum to stop activity. did for long time.

2. Take it to the Security Council, as any other country would. Get sanctions on Lebanon - If Israel wants it, America will deliver.we succed partly by recognize the hammas and hizbulla as terror organizations. sanction on lebanon will be veto by russia or china, which try to show muscles to USA.
3. Mobilise troops, threaten invasion.it wasn't invasion, it was rapid campaign in order to free the soldiers and crack down the hizbulla terrorists. as they didn't found yet, the strategy may be change to long range activities.
4. Then, if all the above fail, start invasion. And don't destroy civilian airports, that doesn't help either.
all the above already failed.
and civilian airport used by the terrorists to bring in weaponary and terrorists, or worse send the kidnapped soldiers to other country (probably iran, where their main base placed).

so this is the formal excuse from now?
-terrorists attack israel from arab area.
-israel demand the rulers of this area take immidiate actions against the terrorists.
-arabs says they are weak and can't do nothing.
-israel take actions by herselves against the terror.
-arab rulers says we invade the area under their control (which the said the hadn't).


As it was an attack to soldiers, from a country who has been invaded and is still in war, I don't see any terrorist attack anywhere. Maybe you're talking about the launch of rockets, but is the same as the bombing of Bairut Airport, attacks on civil infrastructure.

did for long time.

I'm talking about an official ultimatum after the attack.

we succed partly by recognize the hammas and hizbulla as terror organizations. sanction on lebanon will be veto by russia or china, which try to show muscles to USA.

Might not do. If it fails, Israel can then justify its actions. You can't justify actions based on what China and Russia 'might' do.

it wasn't invasion, it was rapid campaign in order to free the soldiers and crack down the hizbulla terrorists. as they didn't found yet, the strategy may be change to long range activities.

Like the difference between a strategic withdrawal and a retreat.

all the above already failed.
and civilian airport used by the terrorists to bring in weaponary and terrorists, or worse send the kidnapped soldiers to other country (probably iran, where their main base placed).

Alright then, if you can prove that's true, you're excused :D

I believe this attack is getting way out of control.
Attacking a civilian aiport, let me state the only international airport in lebanon is a gross act.
Not only will the struggling lebanese economy suffer, but a number of airlines, who have nothing to do with this conflict are now stranded at the airport for god knows how long.
Why should such a large number of people suffer as a result of a minorities actions?

Interestingly, what has been the Lebanese government response to all this? I can't find it anywhere.

Its totally beyond wonder they do what they do . they FINALLY get Israel out of the west bank and Gaza and show some progress of forming a Palestinian State ..:

There was no withdrawal from the West Bank, no withdrawal from the settlements in it, nor any attempt to withdraw from Arab East Jerusalem. In addition, Gaza was taking 30,000 soldiers to guard 8,000 settlers and if anything was a strategic withdrawal made in order to consolidate a hold on Jerusalem/the West Bank - something evidenced by the increased building.


and I guess the para's and other British special troops that went where ever they felt like in ireland do not count ?..:

No uniformed reigment operated south of the border on any occassion.


you think you can get from 2002 until today or do you need more help ??..:

What happened in 1997 according to your list above? And as an additional factor to consider - the vast majority of settlers in the West Bank have arrived since 1993 - over 400,000 in fact.


March: Three IRA members are shot dead by British special forces in Gibraltar, where they are allegedly planning an attack on the British garrison. ??..:

Gibraltar - a British territory just off the coast of Spain. What has that to do with British forces operating south of the border?


go read the link ..as I said the brits went where they wanted to go when they wanted . be it GIBRALTAR or hell ...:

..... but obviously not Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan or Dundalk. They weren't too fond of South Armagh either, by all accounts.


and while you are at it how is lebenon in any way relevant to Ireland..Considering the British had troops based in Both north and South ?
...:

Hmmmm....so some Americans really are that clueless.....

Again ...its way off topic talking about the history of ireland VS hamas attacking israel..go start an Irish history thread . Republic of Ireland and northern Ireland ....:

Well, at least you've realised how wrong you are now.

They just bombed the commercial airport in Beiruit. To stop those evil Hezbollah terrorist aircraft from taking off. *rolleyes*

If they are too weak, then perhaps Israel could do more to help the Lebanese government remove these terrorists. An invastion is simply OTT for an initial response.as much as I concerned we didn't invade lebanon. we only make counter-terror operations on lebanon territory, in order to help their goverment remove this terrorists.



True, but irrelevant to the current discussion.they are the same. they even include all the kidnapped soldiers in one bag of negotiation.
you can't discuus one while ignore the other.


Do not put words in my mouth. I neither justify or condone acts of terror against Israel. My point was, which man is more likely to become a terrorist? One under a full military occupation, where there are checkpoints, barriers and a failing economy, or one under a growing free state, where these obstacles have been removed?suppose that if israel will pullout from every conquered territory they will become switzerland? the israeli army isn't in their cities, and he wasn't in the gaza strip if they wan't kidnapp the soldier. they still brainwash their childs, marsh gunmen in the streets, make propoganda in the mosques and corrupt the poor palastinians (most of the popolation) with lot of money in order to create more suicide bombers and terrorists. they treathen the lives of both israeli and palastinians civilians and their goals are just near those of Hizbulla, Iran and Al-qaida. they will take away any chance for peace, and use the unguarded borders for bringing havier weaponary and WMDs.
puting all the fault on the side who tried to get peace, and show his good will many times, is justification for the terror acts. maybe you don't mean it, but the terrorists take it as support in their continues fight.
Only when there is an independent state can the terrorists be defeated, and Israel finally have true security for its people.
we tried to do that, they refused to get independecy on 95% from the west bank and all the strip (clinton-barak proposal).
their leaders also refuse to really fight against the terror (or even secretly support it). independet palastine with active terror organization is disaster which we try to avoid, and recipy for worse anarchy than they got on the strip, before the kidnapp had happened.

Nope.
I am saying that WE, Europeans, must refuse to have any form of contact-other-than-by-automatic-armsfire with the Palestinians.


Where the hell are you from? I've always thought you were israeli, that's placed in Asia. And your theory is the besto one to asure Israel's destruction, sooner or later (it seems to be later), something I don't desire to see at all.

as much as I concerned we didn't invade lebanon. we only make counter-terror operations on lebanon territory, in order to help their goverment remove this terrorists.




By bombing a commercial airport?


edit: no need to comment. I'm not going to argue about this. It's so pointless. Sorry, move on..

As it was an attack to soldiers, from a country who has been invaded and is still in war, I don't see any terrorist attack anywhere. Maybe you're talking about the launch of rockets, but is the same as the bombing of Bairut Airport, attacks on civil infrastructure.
we pullout from lebanon before 6 years. it isn't invaded nation.
the fact it were soldiers don't mean it isn't terror.
and their missles launch were long time before the kidnapp. now it is just wider and stronger.
israel had any right to counter attack the terrorists.

Israel is going overboard. I can see responses justified, but they are off the deep end. If someone slaps you, you aren't entitled to hit them with a baseball bat, over and over. Even if they really want you dead, but can only slap you.

My one specific comment: Israel should, at the very freaking least, go through the motions; go to the UN, and ultimatum lebanon to work against the terrorists, or have the IDF do it forcibly.

Instead of just invading.

I'm talking about an official ultimatum after the attack.why? they got all the oppurtinities to do something. diplomacy will just waste time and let the terrorists hid in safe place.



Might not do. If it fails, Israel can then justify its actions. You can't justify actions based on what China and Russia 'might' do.we tried. anyway, israel isn't in the level of bringing proposals to the UN, so mainstrate in convincing USA do it for us. as you may know the UN is pretty much toothless.



Like the difference between a strategic withdrawal and a retreat.maybe, but we faught only the terrorists, so it can't be invasion.



Alright then, if you can prove that's true, you're excused :D
the palastinians caught used the same triks. if we would do it in lebanon after we know it for sure, it will be too late.

Israel is going overboard. I can see responses justified, but they are off the deep end. If someone slaps you, you aren't entitled to hit them with a baseball bat, over and over. Even if they really want you dead, but can only slap you.

My one specific comment: Israel should, at the very freaking least, go through the motions; go to the UN, and ultimatum lebanon to work against the terrorists, or have the IDF do it forcibly.

Instead of just invading.

I tend to agree with you here, but when you put it this way: "Even if they really want you dead, but can only slap you", I thought about that.

If someone really wants you dead, should you strike them back so they know not to fuck with you, or should you pussy foot around until they become strong enough to fulfil their desires: your death???

Again, I agree with you. Israel has responded in spades, but in this region of the world, it seems showing a weak hand is deadly, the Israelis must show they mean business, otherwise they invite more attacks.

Similarly, this heavy handed response will instil a stronger determination within many of the PLO factions.

This is a nasty conflict, where there will be no winners while violence is considered the only course of action.

Why should such a large number of people suffer as a result of a minorities actions?
because this "minorities" are the real controllers of the area, and they supported by large percent of the popolation?

Israel is going overboard. I can see responses justified, but they are off the deep end. If someone slaps you, you aren't entitled to hit them with a baseball bat, over and over. Even if they really want you dead, but can only slap you.

My one specific comment: Israel should, at the very freaking least, go through the motions; go to the UN, and ultimatum lebanon to work against the terrorists, or have the IDF do it forcibly.

Instead of just invading.
yeah the UN help so much in serbia, sudan, north korea and iran. exactly what we need here.
you can't fight with terriorists by tell them you tell their actions to uncle UN. the UN already recognize them as terror organization although it don't effect too much. besides, sanctions made to press on countries and goverments. they are useless against terrorists.

like I said: US tax payers give $13.7 million per day to the Jewish State.. that money is used largely to pay for the tanks and Bombers that the Palestinean refugees hate so much..

All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.
.

And how did you arrive at that figure ?.Yahoo search engine.. Of courseif its true I want some Ocean front property in a no shelling zone ...you want to buy some overseas property?
try Yahoo/Google search.. or maybe ebay. :p

...and I want it today .what is your credit card limit?

Fabulous
another post about that war
who cares?
israel knows they can do what they want
the ennemy is a terrorist

NEXT please...

I'm not sure he arrived at it at all.Common Leo, you know better. (you know me, I do not bluff)

Fabulous
another post about that war
who cares?
israel knows they can do what they want
the ennemy is a terrorist

NEXT please...

Well, the thread has over 550 posts in just over 24 hours, it seems that there are numerous individuals within these forums who care...

And how did you arrive at that figure ? .I got it from this web site

http://www.peacenowar.net/Iraq/AG/

I got it from this web site

http://www.peacenowar.net/Iraq/AG/here is the actual link
http://www.peacenowar.net
http://www.peacenowar.net/Palestine/News/US%20aids.htm

You could also search

"largest recipient of US aid in the world"

Meh, better them then the other things this government would spend the money on.If Bush had saved only 20 days of that "aid-them-buy-more-bombs-shit".. he could have helped with the New-Orleans levees.. like New Orleans was asking before Katrina.

If Bush had saved only 20 days of that "aid-them-buy-more-bombs-shit".. he could have repaired the New-Orleans levees
if he want to, he can already find this money somewhere in the goverment budget.
come on, they had annualy budget of hunderds of bilions and the only place they can take from is the few bilions who go to israel (and invested back in the US weaponary market, which probably provide some income to the goverment)?

My last contribution to this thread. The amount of blind stupidity from a lot of people is yet again astonishing.

International Reaction to military blockade on Lebanon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5175886.stm


We obviously condemn this disproportionate act of war, which moreover has two consequences. The first is that it forces anyone who wants to enter Lebanon from now on to go either by sea or via Syria. The second consequence is that it risks plunging Lebanon back into the worst years of the war.

Today there is a risk of a very dangerous spiral of violence which could destabilise the entire region. It could in particular jeopardise everything that our country has been doing for more than two years to help restore Lebanon's sovereignty and integrity.


One cannot justify the continued destruction by Israel of the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and in Palestinian territory, involving the disproportionate use of force in which the civilian population suffers.

We firmly reaffirm support for Lebanon's sovereignty and territorial integrity. All forms of terrorism are completely unacceptable. All sides involved in the current events should take rapid measures to stop the region sliding into open conflict.

And this gem in bold... (my emphasis)

We have to remember how this started, with Hezbollah rockets attacking Israel across the border and the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. We are urging restraint on both sides, recognising Israel's right to defend itself.

My last contribution to this thread. The amount of blind stupidity from a lot of people is yet again astonishing.

so? they condemn both sides for this acts.
maybe they had operative ideas how to end it, without israel give up again?

Originally Posted by Psychotic Mongooses
The amount of blind stupidity from a lot of people is yet again astonishing.

It seems to be the case in todays society

For years the British suffered much higher casualties than the Israelies from a terrorist organisation. Despite the provocation we didn't continously bomb them back to the stone age, deliberately target and kill their children on a weekly basis, assassinate peace activists nor did they invade other countries.

In Iraq the US had a soldier kidnapped a couple of weeks ago. Strangely they decided not to assassinate the provisional Government nor did they invade any other countries.

More than one British civilian has been killed by the IDF, yet Britain does not nuke Israel off the face of the earth with a sneak strike from a Trident sub.

More than one American civilian has been killed by the IDF, yet America does not cut aid, invade, hit a block of flats with a MOAB or drop The Bomb.

Just imagine if these countries followed the example of Israel?

Surely, it is obvious to even the most ardent nationalist that sometimes the needs of the many (those who will benefit from peace) outweigh the needs of the few (those who will die to see it secured).

It is odd that for a nation, allegedly bent on peace, that Israel has been seeking to destabilise the Palestinians for years. As examples, they have been arming the private security force of the PM and encouraging him to expand his personal guard. This has, predictably, only heightened the internecine warfare with the democratically elected government and thus removed the prospect of a viable partner in the peace process. The casual IDF policy of killing civillians only recruits more terrorists and hardens opinion against them. I mean, seriously, do they think that shelling a family on a beach, or dropping a bomb on a building with families living in it is going to solve things, change peoples opinions, encourage negotiations with them?

Fear will not change the extremists. Only negotiation. History has shown it again and again and again. Sadly, I fear that Israel, like the extremists who populate the terror organisations, is only interested in imposing its own desires and does not care how many people (its own or other people) die as a result.

Great post, well said Inconvenient Truths

For years the British suffered much higher casualties than the Israelies from a terrorist organisation. Despite the provocation we didn't continously bomb them back to the stone age, deliberately target and kill their children on a weekly basis, assassinate peace activists nor did they invade other countries.

In Iraq the US had a soldier kidnapped a couple of weeks ago. Strangely they decided not to assassinate the provisional Government nor did they invade any other countries.

More than one British civilian has been killed by the IDF, yet Britain does not nuke Israel off the face of the earth with a sneak strike from a Trident sub.

More than one American civilian has been killed by the IDF, yet America does not cut aid, invade, hit a block of flats with a MOAB or drop The Bomb.

Just imagine if these countries followed the example of Israel?can you bring some numbers for this statements?
you put together unrelated subjects.
and for countries that invade iraq on much weaker basis, I don't think you should take their example.

Surely, it is obvious to even the most ardent nationalist that sometimes the needs of the many (those who will benefit from peace) outweigh the needs of the few (those who will die to see it secured).

It is odd that for a nation, allegedly bent on peace, that Israel has been seeking to destabilise the Palestinians for years. As examples, they have been arming the private security force of the PM and encouraging him to expand his personal guard. This has, predictably, only heightened the internecine warfare with the democratically elected government and thus removed the prospect of a viable partner in the peace process. The casual IDF policy of killing civillians only recruits more terrorists and hardens opinion against them. I mean, seriously, do they think that shelling a family on a beach, or dropping a bomb on a building with families living in it is going to solve things, change peoples opinions, encourage negotiations with them?
I already got enough of the bullshit that israel porpusely attack palastinian civilians. WE AREN'T AIM THE CIVILIANS. terrorist does, and they use civilians as human sheilds, by launch terror attacks from hospitals, kindergardens, and dense areas. they continue with terror no matter what israel do, and if civilians won't die, they use their other exuces.
israel is the one who are willing for peace and pullout from lebanon and gaza strip (until the last rock of the universal border). they keep attack us, launch missles on our cities, and kidnapp or kill our soldiers.
read my former posts on those subjects, I getting tired with this silly propoganda.
Fear will not change the extremists. Only negotiation. History has shown it again and again and again. Sadly, I fear that Israel, like the extremists who populate the terror organisations, is only interested in imposing its own desires and does not care how many people (its own or other people) die as a result.with the PLO maybe,not with the terror organizations.
we saw what negotiation was worth with the nazis, or with iran and north korea in the present days.
may I assume europe and USA going to invite usama bin-ladin to negotiate his stop from terror activity?

and many of the israeli-arabs palastinians say they aren't israelis, but palastinians. still, the world wouldn't let us take their citizenship and take the plo responsible for them. and no one suggest that jordan will give some of her area to the palastinians.
double standarts, maybe?

I cannot remember any palestinians claiming jordan land as their own...

large part of the arabs which get israeli citizenship (based on marriage and as like), used it as tool to help them with terror attacks.
arab states had no diplomatic relations with israel, and therefore they won't let their citizens migrate to israel.
and the israeli laws are far from thecratic.

Oh my god!, so those devils could go as far as marrying to a jewish so they can kill their spouse/husband's people?, What a monsters they are!, do you have consistent information over this?

Laws that have the objetive to force a population to remain jewish as a the only majority are either theocratic, or racist. Your call.

I cannot remember any palestinians claiming jordan land as their own...

No, because it's far simpler for them to after the non-Muslims. When the British pulled out of the area, Jordan grabbed some of the land that was supposed to be set aside for the Palestinians. Egypt did, too.

No, because it's far simpler for them to after the non-Muslims. When the British pulled out of the area, Jordan grabbed some of the land that was supposed to be set aside for the Palestinians. Egypt did, too.

Well, it is fairly possible. Then again, stop the hatred circle, someone should be able to do it.

Well, it is fairly possible. Then again, stop the hatred circle, someone should be able to do it.

Unfortunately, that will probably only happen when one eliminates the other.

Unfortunately, that will probably only happen when one eliminates the other.

If that means an end to the screaming wounded children...

Well, I'll wait for more details first before saying much other than the movement of troops to any sovereign territory not yours without the host nation's permission is an invasion.

And as to how can they move there, more likely than not, it was because Lebanon can't really stop them short of declaring war, although that's a bit moot since Israel has already invaded them strictly speaking.

It's just like that time Israel bombed someplace in Lebanon on the same excuse. They got away with it because they had enough military might to force anything they want there.

Which is one reason why a nuclear Iran might be a good power check on Israel. I'm sure the usual crowd of "flatten Iran"ers will jump on this, but until Israel gets reined in by it's biggest supporters, this is the only way to make it toe the line.

You don't send armed forces into other countries without their permission unless you want a war. And if this keeps up, Israel would be begging for one on both knees.



Conspicuously absent from your argument is "get rid of the terrorists that are using suicide bombers, and rockets to PURPOSELY attack innocent people."

For years the British suffered much higher casualties than the Israelies from a terrorist organisation. Despite the provocation we didn't continously bomb them back to the stone age, deliberately target and kill their children on a weekly basis, assassinate peace activists nor did they invade other countries.



And you had to deal with the casualties for DECADES. If we would simply allow Israel to eliminate the terrorists, it would be done with and we could all live in peace. Instead, we have to draw it out and the deaths pile up.

And the "peace" you have won will last until some Catholic Leader, or some Protestant leader makes a mistake and opens his mouth in an untoward manner. - or until the next Orange parade incident. I hope I am wrong, but count me as a skeptic.

Oh my god!, so those devils could go as far as marrying to a jewish so they can kill their spouse/husband's people?, What a monsters they are!, do you have consistent information over this?

Laws that have the objetive to force a population to remain jewish as a the only majority are either theocratic, or racist. Your call.


You misunderstood what was said. He was saying that ARAB ISRAELIS (not Jewish Israelis) sometimes mary Palestinians in orderfor the Palestinians to gain citizenship and that sometimes these Palestiniains are terrorists who wish to use their citizenship against Israel.

Israel maintains a Jewish majority so that it will remain a Jewish state. The minute the Arabs get a majority, say bye bye to the Jews, and bye bye Israel, and once again the Jews will be expelled and forced to find another temporary homeland before getting expelled again for some reason or another. The Jews have been persecuted over and over again throughout history yet we haven't persecuted anyone. All we want is to live in peace where we can call a country our home without worrying about anti-semetic laws being passed against us or being forced out. And this living in peace includes living side by side with the Palestiniains. They however, have never showed that they want any type of peace.

I cannot remember any palestinians claiming jordan land as their own...so they didn't want independent country on the territories for the 19 years until israel conquered them? nor other solution for the refugees problem?
as I said, double standarts.


Oh my god!, so those devils could go as far as marrying to a jewish so they can kill their spouse/husband's people?, What a monsters they are!, do you have consistent information over this?am I wrong or you just translated israeli to jewish, although I specifically said israeli-ARABS which are mostly muslims?
you heard "israeli" and think "jewish" and than, you guys trying to tell us the hate for israel is in no way related to anti-semitism.
and there is known security problem as I described, but you probably won't get it anyway.

Laws that have the objetive to force a population to remain jewish as a the only majority are either theocratic, or racist. Your call.again, how is that different from the laws of japan or portugal?

Well, it is fairly possible. Then again, stop the hatred circle, someone should be able to do it.


Circle??? Come on!!! Look at the cause and effect...we were at a relative calm a few weeks ago, and what happens??? Hamas kidnaps soldiers ESCALATING the conflict...Israel pulls out of Gaza....MORE ROCKETS get fired at Israel every day. This isn't about hate on the part of the Israelis, its about defending a country that has been the subject of countless ruthless attacks since its inception.

Circle??? Come on!!! Look at the cause and effect...we were at a relative calm a few weeks ago, and what happens??? Hamas kidnaps soldiers ESCALATING the conflict...Israel pulls out of Gaza....MORE ROCKETS get fired at Israel every day. This isn't about hate on the part of the Israelis, its about defending a country that has been the subject of countless ruthless attacks since its inception.

By its inception, you mean when it was forced down the throats of the majority of the region?

You misunderstood what was said. He was saying that ARAB ISRAELIS (not Jewish Israelis) sometimes mary Palestinians in orderfor the Palestinians to gain citizenship and that sometimes these Palestiniains are terrorists who wish to use their citizenship against Israel.

Israel maintains a Jewish majority so that it will remain a Jewish state. The minute the Arabs get a majority, say bye bye to the Jews, and bye bye Israel, and once again the Jews will be expelled and forced to find another temporary homeland before getting expelled again for some reason or another. The Jews have been persecuted over and over again throughout history yet we haven't persecuted anyone. All we want is to live in peace where we can call a country our home without worrying about anti-semetic laws being passed against us or being forced out. And this living in peace includes living side by side with the Palestiniains. They however, have never showed that they want any type of peace.

Nice ideals, I cannot argue with that, I really hope your people can really find a lplace to be treated properly and live with peace. Wrong means, sometimes, although.

By its inception, you mean when it was forced down the throats of the majority of the region?
UN decision they refused to obey.
and after theyfailed to eliminate israel and lost the area for the palastinian state, they ask the same UN tell israel, we need to withdraw from the conquered areas, and failed.
fair play, isn't it?

UN decision they refused to obey.
and after theyfailed to eliminate israel and lost the area for the palastinian state, they ask the same UN tell israel, we need to withdraw from the conquered areas, and failed.
fair play, isn't it?

I was merely pointing out that when artificial countries are created by political fiat of outsiders, nothing good ever comes of it. Look at the situation with Israel, what happened with the genius idea (yes, sarcasm there) that was Yugoslavia, the random borders that were drawn in Africa, etc.

I dunno, mate. The early history of the Jews was full of a lot of kicking the asses of everyone around them, at least until the Romans showed up.

I guess you forgot Babylon, eh? The first destruction and subjugation of Israel?

so they didn't want independent country on the territories for the 19 years until israel conquered them? nor other solution for the refugees problem?
as I said, double standarts.

Well, I think we entered circular logic here


am I wrong or you just translated israeli to jewish, although I specifically said israeli-ARABS which are mostly muslims?
you heard "israeli" and think "jewish" and than, you guys trying to tell us the hate for israel is in no way related to anti-semitism.
and there is known security problem as I described, but you probably won't get it anyway.

again, how is that different from the laws of japan or portugal?

Sorry, perhaps I did a mistake confunding israeli to jewish, they are indeed not the same thing. Let's clarify some things, ok?.

1.-I do not hate Israel, nor do I hate jewish or hold any kind of anti-semitism. I disagree with the policy of State of the country of Israel, although, that doesn't make me an Israel-hater. Befor you even ask, I'm a main critic of my own country international policies.

2.-Is this thread about Portugal (That as far as I know, have a pretty much open inmigration policy, for what I have seen of nationalized portuguese citizens here), about Japan, or about Israel? When you people will learn that saying that someone else is doing the same thing is not a valid defense for any kind of conduct? It is like saying that because a lot of murders happen out there you can go on killing spree. It is a falacy, and not a valid argument.

3.- I do not support the palestinians actions, or terrorists actions. Actually I happen to hate violence. Any kind of it. I think that arab terrorists should be treated like the criminals they are. But their behavior is not an excuse to rain bombs over their countries and territories causing a lot of collateral damage.

I hope your doubts are cleared now.

I guess you forgot Babylon, eh? The first destruction and subjugation of Israel?

Not sure how you dredged up a post I deleted for the simple reason that I knew that would get brought up...

Circle??? Come on!!! Look at the cause and effect...we were at a relative calm a few weeks ago, and what happens??? Hamas kidnaps soldiers ESCALATING the conflict...Israel pulls out of Gaza....MORE ROCKETS get fired at Israel every day. This isn't about hate on the part of the Israelis, its about defending a country that has been the subject of countless ruthless attacks since its inception.

That's why it is a circle. they start, you continue, then they continue and so on...Circular logic.

I guess you forgot Babylon, eh? The first destruction and subjugation of Israel?


Or the Assyrians, who actually defeated and dispersed the Ten Lost tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel.

I was merely pointing out that when artificial countries are created by political fiat of outsiders, nothing good ever comes of it. Look at the situation with Israel, what happened with the genius idea (yes, sarcasm there) that was Yugoslavia, the random borders that were drawn in Africa, etc.
actually, in the israeli case we had stable state with all the needed public services. the only thing we get from the UN decision was universal acknowledgement, and withrawal of the british forces.
it hard to say the artifical empires forced it in their throats since the got more than half a centaury get used to the idea, while they see us clear swamps, build roads, and develope modern agriculture and industries.
in the meantime they do nothing but serve in the british forces or work in the jewish market (until the arab rebilion which end it), and the UN decision surprise them while they hardly maintain local communities.

Nice ideals, I cannot argue with that, I really hope your people can really find a lplace to be treated properly and live with peace. Wrong means, sometimes, although.


We have a nice place, and it's Israel. We are just surrounded by a bunch of really unfriendly neighbors.

We have a nice place, and it's Israel. We are just surrounded by a bunch of really unfriendly neighbors.

That get treated in a unfriendly way by you too, sorry, but that's my position. You just are too unfriendly to each other. I can be convinced that palestinians are indeed more hostile to you than you to them, but sometimes you also cross the line.

That get treated in a unfriendly way by you too, sorry, but that's my position. You just are too unfriendly to each other. I can be convinced that palestinians are indeed more hostile to you than you to them, but sometimes you also cross the line.

Indeed. As you've already pointed out, the whole situation is a vicious circle.

Hmm. Radio says there's some sort of negotiations going on. Anybody have any details on that?

Not sure how you dredged up a post I deleted for the simple reason that I knew that would get brought up...

I hit the quote button, but didn't submit my post for a long time.

That get treated in a unfriendly way by you too, sorry, but that's my position. You just are too unfriendly to each other. I can be convinced that palestinians are indeed more hostile to you than you to them, but sometimes you also cross the line.


How does Israel cross the line? Every military action the IDF takes is in order to defend itself against constant terrorist attacks. The IDF also does the best it can to minimize civilian casualties.

How does Israel cross the line? Every military action the IDF takes is in order to defend itself against constant terrorist attacks. The IDF also does the best it can to minimize civilian casualties.

Well, I think placing checkpoints over bridges instead of bombing them with planes seems to be a more friendlier idea, just to put an example...

How does Israel cross the line? Every military action the IDF takes is in order to defend itself against constant terrorist attacks. The IDF also does the best it can to minimize civilian casualties.

It is the position of many people (especially "intellectual pacifists") that Israel is not allowed to defend itself, and that the Palestinians, however violent they may be, are completely excused from their behavior.

“The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States.”

From Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism in May 1945.

Conspicuously absent from your argument is "get rid of the terrorists that are using suicide bombers, and rockets to PURPOSELY attack innocent people."

Conspicously absent from your statement is an attempt to link it with what I'm saying other than "you're not condemning the terrorists"

I don't need to because I don't approve of them either.

Well, I think placing checkpoints over bridges instead of bombing them with planes seems to be a more friendlier idea, just to put an example...


Israel does that when dealing with the Palestinians for the most part, however when it comes to blockading a country or a people, the best way to do that is to take out the bridge so no one can move in or out of the territories allowing for the soldier to escape.

In Lebanon however, Israel isn't jsut gonna go in and drop soldiers into enemy territory like that...they are going to fight like its war by bombingbridges to stop enemy movement.

Well, I think we entered circular logic here
why?



Sorry, perhaps I did a mistake confunding israeli to jewish, they are indeed not the same thing. Let's clarify some things, ok?.

1.-I do not hate Israel, nor do I hate jewish or hold any kind of anti-semitism. I disagree with the policy of State of the country of Israel, although, that doesn't make me an Israel-hater. Befor you even ask, I'm a main critic of my own country international policies.fine, leave it aside.

2.-Is this thread about Portugal (That as far as I know, have a pretty much open inmigration policy, for what I have seen of nationalized portuguese citizens here), about Japan, or about Israel? When you people will learn that saying that someone else is doing the same thing is not a valid defense for any kind of conduct? It is like saying that because a lot of murders happen out there you can go on killing spree. It is a falacy, and not a valid argument.any countrie as the right to choose her citizens, and as I said the israeli culture and state depend on jewish majority.
we had immigration policy just as any other country. the only difference is we had parts that give fast citizenship line for jewish, keep our belief that israel is the homeland of the jewish people.

3.- I do not support the palestinians actions, or terrorists actions. Actually I happen to hate violence. Any kind of it. I think that arab terrorists should be treated like the criminals they are. But their behavior is not an excuse to rain bombs over their countries and territories causing a lot of collateral damage.
we are trying to avoid from that, but accidents happened in every war. sometimes accidents lead to death of our soldiers.
we don't rain bombs over their country. we bomb specific targets, in order to fight the terror (even if some bombs miss)

It is the position of many people (especially "intellectual pacifists") that Israel is not allowed to defend itself, and that the Palestinians, however violent they may be, are completely excused from their behavior.

“The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States.”

From Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism in May 1945.

Ah, if only Britain or the US were involved here.

Israelis have never given a damn **** for other countries' territorial integrity. They do as they wish just because they have the ability to. Israel is devoid of any decency.


They are fighting for their very existance as a nation and as a peoples.

Ah, if only Britain or the US were involved here.

Israel was essentially a UK creation, and the US has been its sponsor ever since.

And you can add Israel to the list of nations that "intellectual pacifists" hate unconditionally.

Conspicously absent from your statement is an attempt to link it with what I'm saying other than "you're not condemning the terrorists"

I don't need to because I don't approve of them either.

You attributed the problems to everything EXCEPT the MAIN reason.

Ah, if only Britain or the US were involved here.
you look who said that? orwell ideas aren't related to this specific issue, but to wide scale of things (in analogies to the period he was live).
replace "USA and britain" with "Israel", and you will get the idea.

The Soldiers were kidnapped by the terrorists first!!!!

Jesus some of the posters here are idiots. Hezbollah has been supported by Syria, Iran, and Lebanon. They have been firing rockets into Israel from Lebanon for years. This is in addition to their homocide bombings. Actions by Hezbollah were state sponsored terrorism. Israel is allowed to defend herself.

It is the position of many people (especially "intellectual pacifists") that Israel is not allowed to defend itself, and that the Palestinians, however violent they may be, are completely excused from their behavior.

“The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States.”

From Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism in May 1945.

Orwell, no? Seems to be the main philosopher, ideologue of this forum...Also the most quoted author ever.

I do not fall in any of those categories, but who I am to contradict Godwell?

And why the circular logic?
We started to repeat ourselves, further discussion on that point of the arguing is not going anywhere anymore.

I know most countries have such policies, but I am not entitled to accept them just for that, no?. I am also against the inmigration policy of Japan, if that serves you as an example.

And...I know, yet I hate the amount of collateral damage caused. You are even killing Lebanon's christian civilians, that do not have anything to do with the issue there. I think there are better ways to deal with kidnappings and such.

The Soldiers were kidnapped by the terrorists first!!!

Jesus some of the posters here are idiots. Hezbollah has been supported by Syria, Iran, and Lebanon. They have been firing rockets into Israel from Lebanon for years. This is in addition to their homocide bombings. Actions by Hezbollah were state sponsored terrorism. Israel is allowed to defend herself.

Just tell me if we should resort to trolling, ok?, so I can leave peacefully now. I am discussing, I am not a total idiot because I do not agree or approve your country policies. Relax, plus, you are joining the discussion right now. No excuse for altering yourself that way.

Just tell me if we should resort to trolling, ok?, so I can leave peacefully now. I am discussing, I am not a total idiot because I do not agree or approve your country policies. Relax, plus, you are joining the discussion right now. No excuse for altering yourself that way.
Don't forget that the UN told Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah militias and Lebanon failed to comply. Israel bashers always quote the UN when it condems Israel, but never seem to quote the UN when Arab nations fail to comply with it's resolutions.

Don't forget that the UN told Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah militias and Lebanon failed to comply. Israel bashers always quote the UN when it condems Israel, but never seem to quote the UN Arab nations fail to comply with it's resolutions.

+10,000

Well ok. I havent read the entire thread, only the first page so I can get the feeling of where this is going. I LIVE in Israel, and am currently only about tow hours of driving away from where the latest missile has hit. Now About this thread there are pro and anti Israel, for whatever reason you care to give. I am going to give you the REAL story.

The Hizbalah is not a group that ha any moral or civil meaning its goal is not one that involves feeding hungry children and restoring Lebannon. The only reason the Hizzbalah oppertates is to commit terrorist attacks against Israel. These attacks are not anti-military, they are anti-Jewish. They target EVERYBODY. This is a small nation, only 7 million people and everything only a couple hours of drive away. Think about it this way: New York City holds about 3 times as many people as Israel does. For any of you who say "Israel should be destroyed," I would like to tell any who think so that they should really think about that sentance, because they are sounding a lot like a terrorist organization I know called the Hizbalah. Oh sure, there might be less problems in the middle east. Hell, there might even be peace. But by saying that you can smiply wipe of a nation because it cuases trouble means that anyone with power can say the same, and it might just be you next time.

Over the last 58 years 25,000 Israeli military personal died in wars defending our country. That is not such a large number if you compare it to pretty much any war in the westerm world. But why have they died? over 5,000 of them did not die in any actual war. They died from terrorist attacks and counter operations. This does not include the many thousands of citizens on both sides that died. I also want to make something clear. I do not hate Arabs. I do not like them in particular, but I do not hate them. I hate the terrorist organizations who make life for old regular Joe Muhamad to live his life in peace. Israel has no choice buyt to take military action against the terrorists. Do you think we can just stand and watch terrorists murder innocent people? Try to think from the mind of an Israeli citizen. Are you going to let someone kill you and not do anything in retort? Kill your family, friends? Let me summerize it in 4 words: I don't think so.

I think I summerized most of everything up. You are free to reply to this.

Tamtam.

And why the circular logic?
We started to repeat ourselves, further discussion on that point of the arguing is not going anywhere anymore.facts who aren't repeated constantly will be forget after a while.

I know most countries have such policies, but I am not entitled to accept them just for that, no?. I am also against the inmigration policy of Japan, if that serves you as an example.so you want that any country will be as same with big mix of culture and races integrated together in peace? not going to happen

And...I know, yet I hate the amount of collateral damage caused. You are even killing Lebanon's christian civilians, that do not have anything to do with the issue there. I think there are better ways to deal with kidnappings and such.
name some other ways.

long post
well said, were you live in israel?

Well, I think placing checkpoints over bridges instead of bombing them with planes seems to be a more friendlier idea, just to put an example...

aelosia..you are much to nice to ever be a general or have to fight a war .

The object is to protect your own soldiers..not to make them targets by putting them on bridges ..so that more can be killed or kidnapped. You kill or capture the other side you force them either to surrender or you destroy their ability to harm you . what you just proposed was a full scale invasion and a blockade of the city that the bridges connect to..instead of a few air strikes ...that cost NO lives ..but DID cut off the easy routes for the kidnappers to move on .

Israel exist ..no one will remove it by force without starting WW III ..a very short war with no winners only losers and a lot of dead Arabs and israelis .
and a world economy so screwed up it will make the great depression look like a picknic.

All the gains made by the Palestinians over the last ten years ..they have thrown them away. They have commited nation suicide yet again ..and helped along by their puppet masters in Damascus..hamas military wings base..and Hezbolla ..the arm of Iran . it seems PEACE is not in the best interest of either of these countries.

Now lets give Iran the ability to build a nuke so they can have hezbolla play with it .

These are dangerouse times .

For Green, I live in Nes-Ziona, or if you dont recognize that 2 minutes of driving away from Rehovot. If you dont recognize THAT, it's somwhere near Tel-Aviv.

As for Iran, that is an entirely different subject that if I may suggest should pen another thread. I agree with you though. Its one thing allowing countries their freedom. It's quite another giving a nation publicly supportive of terrists the means to start a nuclear war.

Alright. first, I do not like the name calling, if disagreeing with you makes you an "Israel-basher" then you are indeed going to collect a nice amount of enemies too soon. Golden Rule of rational arguing....disagreeing is not agression. If you want to pick a fight, you seem to have plenty nearby, go grab a rifle and go wild on the guys in the other side of the fence.

Point-by-point

1.- We are not discussing facts here, but opinions and points of view, yours being as valid as mine. If you want to repeat yourself over and over in the thought of convincing me over a dead point, then do it, but it's not really my style, it makes me feel like a parrot.

2.- I do dream of such place. With no stupid nationalism, hatred, or thoughts of being better than others just because you were born several meters inside this side of that line, and not the other. I do not find the point of dying for a painted piece of fabric, a military song, and a fancy name. But that's a personal view AND a personal dream, and first and foremost is valid for anyone to not agree with it. Regarding the impossibility of it. I am pretty sure people in the 30's or in the 50's said the same thing about the possibility of the EU like we know it today. Who knows?, perhaps in several centuries?

3.-For me, one word. Negotiation, I already told you about the Colombia case, with lots of kidnappings and assaults. Yet noone is bombing colombian bridges as we speak, no

Aelosia,

No one is saying "fight for your flag, etc."

If whoever comprises the opposing side is saying, "look at those people there, on our land, let's go commit genocide and kill every man, woman, and child as our holy book commands us to liberate our holy land," then it doesn't matter what the people being attacked by terrorists believe. They can believe in nothing, and still be the target of genocide.

If someone is trying to kill you, it's prudent to do whatever it takes within reason to stop them.

If, after decades of negotiation, they still insist that their primary goal is to kill every last person you know, you aren't left with many choices.

Nothing in Columbia smacks of genocidal mania. Nothing. It's a completely invalid comparison.

The thing about negotiations is that you have to have someone to talk to. Talking to yourself is well and fine, but not especially helpful. With these terrorist organizations, its just that they do not want to talk with us. They simply want Israel to sieze to exist. Not peace, or money, or whatnot. They want every living Jew on the planet to stop breathing and fall dead. Not someone you can really negotiate with eh?

Columbia is also an extremely bad example. Kidnapping there was, but I do not recall mass-suicide bombs, missiles, armed invasions. Also, they are not attacking a nation set with one of the seven top military nations in the world. Israel has the means to deliver its rightous wrath, and we deliver it every time we are forced to. Believe me, Israeli citizens do not sit around the house waiting eagerly awaiting the time where they can go out and shoot "Them Arab scum", as I am sure Arabs who are not terrorists don't. Just making sure you understand the difference. There are many more differences then I care to list right now, but those are the major points.

Why they havent executed the soldiers then?

If they are maniacs, like that thrice-damned Al-Zarqawi guy (may he...get punished by Allah for what he did in his name), they should had killed them right away.

I am aware of the "not negotiate with terrorist" policy before writing this...

but if they offered the soldiers as a token of exchange for some women and minor prisoners (age minors), well, you can then start negotiations until the end of it, even if the take weeks, or months, or like Ingrid, years...

That's why I talked about Colombia, regarding negotiations as a token of exchange for mutual prisoners. Not for the ideological part. Thanks for being so rational in your arguing, but I already understood the differences regarding that part.

My point here is that sadly, several civilians, both israelis (yes, I do care a lot for the israeli people, the civilians, believe me, perhaps even more than for palestines) and arabs, are paying for everything there. Tha is what I want to avoid. Instead of bombings, try SpecOps removing the main terrorists targets or something else, that's all...

1.- We are not discussing facts here, but opinions and points of view, yours being as valid as mine. If you want to repeat yourself over and over in the thought of convincing me over a dead point, then do it, but it's not really my style, it makes me feel like a parrot.maybe, but I don't sure what dead point you aim exactly.

2.- I do dream of such place. With no stupid nationalism, hatred, or thoughts of being better than others just because you were born several meters inside this side of that line, and not the other. I do not find the point of dying for a painted piece of fabric, a military song, and a fancy name. But that's a personal view AND a personal dream, and first and foremost is valid for anyone to not agree with it. Regarding the impossibility of it. I am pretty sure people in the 30's or in the 50's said the same thing about the possibility of the EU like we know it today. Who knows?, perhaps in several centuries?maybe in the european case.
anyway, the jewish people as the balkan nations want free state for themselves. the good old idea of nation states, frenchs in france, germans in germany, and jewish in Israel. same model in most of the world. minorities had rights, but the main culture is preserved.
there already more than twenty arab states, not to mention muslim, but only one jewish state. maintain democratically the jewish majority isn't racial.

3.-For me, one word. Negotiation, I already told you about the Colombia case, with lots of kidnappings and assaults. Yet noone is bombing colombian bridges as we speak, noonly the colombians don't try to destroy the countries their citizen kidnapped, nor ask for release of thousands of terrorists who will back to terror attacks.
we tried the negotiation many times before. it hasn't help.

maybe in the european case.
anyway, the jewish people as the balkan nations want free state for themselves. the good old idea of nation states, frenchs in france, germans in germany, and jewish in Israel. same model in most of the world. minorities had rights, but the main culture is preserved.

Palestinians in Palestine? They would probably like a free state for themselves, too.:rolleyes:

Palestinians in Palestine? They would probably like a free state for themselves, too.:rolleyes:
Sure they do, but it must take all of the territory that Israel now occupies as well. Remember, the majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and take back all of the land. They don't want to compromise and have a smaller state, they want to destroy Israel, kill the Israeli people, and take all of the land for themselves.

Why they havent executed the soldiers then?pure logic. thousands of terrorists out of the jail harm israel more than the death of 2 soldiers.


but if they offered the soldiers as a token of exchange for some women and minor prisoners (age minors), well, you can then start negotiations until the end of it, even if the take weeks, or months, or like Ingrid, years...that was the very first proposal. now they add 2 more soldiers to the deal, and they strenghten their demands.

My point here is that sadly, several civilians, both israelis (yes, I do care a lot for the israeli people, the civilians, believe me, perhaps even more than for palestines) and arabs, are paying for everything there. Tha is what I want to avoid. Instead of bombings, try SpecOps removing the main terrorists targets or something else, that's all...we tryin both. one military strategy never stand for her own.

Palestinians in Palestine? They would probably like a free state for themselves, too.:rolleyes:
and israel show will to give them such state on part of the area. they miss the oppurunity many time before.
as DCD said, their vote for hamas show they had problems with the fact they will be alongside israel and will not replace us.

Sure they do, but it must take all of the territory that Israel now occupies as well. Remember, the majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and take back all of the land. They don't want to compromise and have a smaller state, they want to destroy Israel, kill the Israeli people, and take all of the land for themselves.

However, most Palestinians still believe in the two state solution, question 17 and 24 should (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf) clear this up.

Sorry, that's not why people voted Hamas.

However, most Palestinians still believe in the two state solution, question 17 and 24 should (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf) clear this up.

Sorry, that's not why people voted Hamas.
I can't see that link. care to quote it here?

You can't fight terrorism with an army. It would be nice if you could, but you can't.

Unfortunately, the whole issue is wrapped around the idea of nationalism. This thread is a microcosm of that. An attack on a policy or an individual action is immediately branded is an attack by a nation, or on a nation. Those who say that it is a bad idea to bomb buildings filled with children in order to assassinate a terrorist leader are labelled as anti-Israeli. Those who attack the terroist actions of some Palestinians are labelled anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. In actual fact many of them are simply pro-sensible action or anti-indiscriminate killing.
A soldier is kidnapped by a handful of men and is hidden in a teaming slum.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.
An Israeli soldier cold-bloodedly guns down two small girls playing in a school yard.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.

Collective punishment then ensues.
This does not make any sense nor does is match any moral or intelligent guidelines. How can engendering deep-seated hatred by killing people (on either side) help bring about peace?

The problem is that there is no central authority controlling the actions of every person with a grudge against Israel or specific Israelies. Despite the Hamas ceasefire, Israelies still died (although in much smaller numbers). This can not be addressed through military action or short term political action. Peace only comes about through long term strategies that do not involve killing.
Sadly, due to its organisation and size the onus for carrying peace rests on the shoulders of the Israeli Government. If it truly wants peace then it will be willing to pay the price of long term negotiation and settlements (possibly even returning to one of the earlier border agreements of years ago). They must stop seeking to destabilise the Palestinian government (so that it can actually build up a measure of control), it (and the world) must help put Palestine on its feet so that Palestinians do not see Terrorist action as the only way to ensure that they have jobs, eat, are educated, allow children to play in safety. Israel must accept that they will have to compromise in key areas, something that will make them very unpopular (just look at the recent resettlement protests) and it must accept that it will have to turn the other cheek to terrorist attacks (or at least not respond in its usual fashion)
In return, the Palestinians have to find their feet and then come to the table with a willingness to show the same spirit of compromise, in all areas. They will have to demonstrate a slowly constricting grip on the terrorists and take steps to bring them publicly to justice. Introduce educational policies to combat the idea of terrorism itself.

Yes, this will not be quick (it would probably take 30 years) and yes, this is not fair. But then nothing about this conflict is, and it needs to end.

Sadly, nothing the Israeli government has done has shown any true desire to find a lasting peace with the Palestinians, and things have only hardened on both sides. I genuinely despair of seeing any long lasting resolution to the issue and I suspect that my children will grow up reading of the increasing casualties and atrocities suffered and carried out by both sides in a fight that has already become generational and that has twisted the cultures of both sides.



any countrie as the right to choose her citizens, and as I said the israeli culture and state depend on jewish majority.
I think someone said something pretty similar back in 1935. :(

I can't see that link. care to quote it here?

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf

Here you go :D

However, most Palestinians still believe in the two state solution, question 17 and 24 should (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no57.pdf) clear this up.

Sorry, that's not why people voted Hamas.


Hamas' terror activities are well known to everyone, as well as their stated goal of destroying Israel. Go check out the Hama charter online...you can google it by looking up hamas charter or "the avalon project."

Hamas was put into power to further their goal of destroyng Israel.

You can't fight terrorism with an army. It would be nice if you could, but you can't.

Unfortunately, the whole issue is wrapped around the idea of nationalism. This thread is a microcosm of that. An attack on a policy or an individual action is immediately branded is an attack by a nation, or on a nation. Those who say that it is a bad idea to bomb buildings filled with children in order to assassinate a terrorist leader are labelled as anti-Israeli. Those who attack the terroist actions of some Palestinians are labelled anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. In actual fact many of them are simply pro-sensible action or anti-indiscriminate killing.
A soldier is kidnapped by a handful of men and is hidden in a teaming slum.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.
An Israeli soldier cold-bloodedly guns down two small girls playing in a school yard.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.

Collective punishment then ensues.
This does not make any sense nor does is match any moral or intelligent guidelines. How can engendering deep-seated hatred by killing people (on either side) help bring about peace?

The problem is that there is no central authority controlling the actions of every person with a grudge against Israel or specific Israelies. Despite the Hamas ceasefire, Israelies still died (although in much smaller numbers). This can not be addressed through military action or short term political action. Peace only comes about through long term strategies that do not involve killing.
Sadly, due to its organisation and size the onus for carrying peace rests on the shoulders of the Israeli Government. If it truly wants peace then it will be willing to pay the price of long term negotiation and settlements (possibly even returning to one of the earlier border agreements of years ago). They must stop seeking to destabilise the Palestinian government (so that it can actually build up a measure of control), it (and the world) must help put Palestine on its feet so that Palestinians do not see Terrorist action as the only way to ensure that they have jobs, eat, are educated, allow children to play in safety. Israel must accept that they will have to compromise in key areas, something that will make them very unpopular (just look at the recent resettlement protests) and it must accept that it will have to turn the other cheek to terrorist attacks (or at least not respond in its usual fashion)
In return, the Palestinians have to find their feet and then come to the table with a willingness to show the same spirit of compromise, in all areas. They will have to demonstrate a slowly constricting grip on the terrorists and take steps to bring them publicly to justice. Introduce educational policies to combat the idea of terrorism itself.

Yes, this will not be quick (it would probably take 30 years) and yes, this is not fair. But then nothing about this conflict is, and it needs to end.

Sadly, nothing the Israeli government has done has shown any true desire to find a lasting peace with the Palestinians, and things have only hardened on both sides. I genuinely despair of seeing any long lasting resolution to the issue and I suspect that my children will grow up reading of the increasing casualties and atrocities suffered and carried out by both sides in a fight that has already become generational and that has twisted the cultures of both sides.


I think someone said something pretty similar back in 1935. :(

Sheez, best post EVER. Entirely agree with everything *hugs*

If members of Mothers Against Drunk Driving decided to vote for Al Qaeda backed candidates because radical Islam is against drinking I would still criticize them as supporting terrorism. The majority of Palestinians backed a terrorist organization in the last election. The majority of Palestinians either supported the destruction of Israel by voting for an organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

I think someone said something pretty similar back in 1935. :(
so we just back to the classic argument of zionism=racism?
now tell me you aren't anti-zionist.

"Israel said it has information that the guerrillas who captured the soldiers are trying to transfer them to Iran, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said, according to The Associated Press."

Hopefully this is not true.
Israel will not stop at Lebonnan.

If this is true.... Then welcome to WW III

Sheez, best post EVER. Entirely agree with everything *hugs*

You don't need to check height first? ;)

Hamas' terror activities are well known to everyone, as well as their stated goal of destroying Israel. Go check out the Hama charter online...you can google it by looking up hamas charter or "the avalon project."

Hamas was put into power to further their goal of destroyng Israel.

Didn't you read that? They (Palestinians) supported a two state solution, and primarily voted for Hamas, rather stupidly, because of their anti-corruption agenda. Of course, that's no excuse for voting Hamas, but the regular "all Palestinins want to do is kill Israel" cry isn't necessairily true.

And yes, I do know about the Hamas charter - it contains a lot of crap about Jews hiding behind trees.

so we just back to the classic argument of zionism=racism?
now tell me you aren't anti-zionist.

I do not think that's his point. The ideas, or the way they are expressed, are similar in any case.

Disagreement is not agression. You seem to be eager to earn more enemies to your cause, although.

You don't need to check height first? ;)

No, but maybe I hugged his bellybutton. It has happened before..

"Israel said it has information that the guerrillas who captured the soldiers are trying to transfer them to Iran, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said, according to The Associated Press."

Hopefully this is not true.
Israel will not stop at Lebonnan.

If this is true.... Then welcome to WW III

This, I assume, is why there is a naval and air blockade. That won't happen, JJB.

You can't fight terrorism with an army. It would be nice if you could, but you can't.

Unfortunately, the whole issue is wrapped around the idea of nationalism. This thread is a microcosm of that. An attack on a policy or an individual action is immediately branded is an attack by a nation, or on a nation. Those who say that it is a bad idea to bomb buildings filled with children in order to assassinate a terrorist leader are labelled as anti-Israeli. Those who attack the terroist actions of some Palestinians are labelled anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. In actual fact many of them are simply pro-sensible action or anti-indiscriminate killing.
A soldier is kidnapped by a handful of men and is hidden in a teaming slum.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.
An Israeli soldier cold-bloodedly guns down two small girls playing in a school yard.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.

Collective punishment then ensues.
This does not make any sense nor does is match any moral or intelligent guidelines. How can engendering deep-seated hatred by killing people (on either side) help bring about peace?

The problem is that there is no central authority controlling the actions of every person with a grudge against Israel or specific Israelies. Despite the Hamas ceasefire, Israelies still died (although in much smaller numbers). This can not be addressed through military action or short term political action. Peace only comes about through long term strategies that do not involve killing.
Sadly, due to its organisation and size the onus for carrying peace rests on the shoulders of the Israeli Government. If it truly wants peace then it will be willing to pay the price of long term negotiation and settlements (possibly even returning to one of the earlier border agreements of years ago). They must stop seeking to destabilise the Palestinian government (so that it can actually build up a measure of control), it (and the world) must help put Palestine on its feet so that Palestinians do not see Terrorist action as the only way to ensure that they have jobs, eat, are educated, allow children to play in safety. Israel must accept that they will have to compromise in key areas, something that will make them very unpopular (just look at the recent resettlement protests) and it must accept that it will have to turn the other cheek to terrorist attacks (or at least not respond in its usual fashion)
In return, the Palestinians have to find their feet and then come to the table with a willingness to show the same spirit of compromise, in all areas. They will have to demonstrate a slowly constricting grip on the terrorists and take steps to bring them publicly to justice. Introduce educational policies to combat the idea of terrorism itself.

Yes, this will not be quick (it would probably take 30 years) and yes, this is not fair. But then nothing about this conflict is, and it needs to end.

Sadly, nothing the Israeli government has done has shown any true desire to find a lasting peace with the Palestinians, and things have only hardened on both sides. I genuinely despair of seeing any long lasting resolution to the issue and I suspect that my children will grow up reading of the increasing casualties and atrocities suffered and carried out by both sides in a fight that has already become generational and that has twisted the cultures of both sides.

Israel has been sitting and trying to negotiate with the Arabs for 58 years. You say Israel has never truly tried to mediate and find an end to the situation but I can find endless examples of when Israel has negotiated a solution and the Palestinians have walked away from the table. Israel has made peace with Jordan AND Egypt...so Israel is most definately capable of sitting at the table. however, eace with Egypt was only achieved when a peace maker, Assad took power. Arafat turned down a deal in 2000 that gave them everything, and he didn't even bring out a counter-offer...he just started the Intifada a few months later...

perhaps they can chose to side step world and public opion and national Bundrays think you'll find that the wanted to destroy Israel long before then 1902 when the Bofulor delaration Arabs was signed say that both the plastinans and Israel should have a homeland

don't think we are quite at the eugenics war stage yet i think cooler head will pervail

um 3rd world war didn't that lead to the formation if the united federation of planets indirectley or was it the planet of the apes
seem to Remember there were also about 9 billion dead in the aftermath and almost no goverments left quote startrek first conact

You can't fight terrorism with an army. It would be nice if you could, but you can't.you can't fight evil by give up. chambelin tried it with the nazis. terrorists trying to destroy israel. I can't see how it work negotiate them.

Unfortunately, the whole issue is wrapped around the idea of nationalism. This thread is a microcosm of that. An attack on a policy or an individual action is immediately branded is an attack by a nation, or on a nation. Those who say that it is a bad idea to bomb buildings filled with children in order to assassinate a terrorist leader are labelled as anti-Israeli. Those who attack the terroist actions of some Palestinians are labelled anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. In actual fact many of them are simply pro-sensible action or anti-indiscriminate killing.
A soldier is kidnapped by a handful of men and is hidden in a teaming slum.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.
An Israeli soldier cold-bloodedly guns down two small girls playing in a school yard.
This is deemed the responsibility of an entire nation.terrorists are supported by the palastinians. that why they chose as majority party.
still, we didn't blame all the palastinians for the acts of terrorists. we fight the terror anytime anyplace, and we trying to avoid more civilians deaths. you continue to ignore that.
your description of israeli cold-blodded murder of children is almost pure anti-semitic.
you try to make both sides evil equation where it isn't stand.
Collective punishment then ensues.
This does not make any sense nor does is match any moral or intelligent guidelines. How can engendering deep-seated hatred by killing people (on either side) help bring about peace?collective punishment? maybe fight on terror. we don't go after their terror attacks and shot their cities for fun.
again, you trying color the complex picture by your beliefs ignoring the sad reality.
The problem is that there is no central authority controlling the actions of every person with a grudge against Israel or specific Israelies.when they had autority they used it to more terror.
Despite the Hamas ceasefire, Israelies still died (although in much smaller numbers). This can not be addressed through military action or short term political action. Peace only comes about through long term strategies that do not involve killing.they continue with terror during the "ceasefire". it make us defend ourselves and fight the terror until this "peace" show up.
Sadly, due to its organisation and size the onus for carrying peace rests on the shoulders of the Israeli Government. If it truly wants peace then it will be willing to pay the price of long term negotiation and settlements (possibly even returning to one of the earlier border agreements of years ago). agreements year ago? right. the ones when we tried to give them state on almost all the territories, and they refused and decided to mainstrate in more terror. or the goodwill pullout from the strip, which surprisingly lead to more terror.
if the palastinians willing for peace they can get it anytime.
it will be few hours after they will crack down the terror.
They must stop seeking to destabilise the Palestinian government (so that it can actually build up a measure of control), it (and the world) must help put Palestine on its feet so that Palestinians do not see Terrorist action as the only way to ensure that they have jobs, eat, are educated, allow children to play in safety. they get more global aid than any other country in the world! they got all the jobs, food and education (which is full with propoganda and brainwashing against israel) right before they refused to our peace proposal and start the second Intifada (surprisingly, it involved many terror attacks which supported by the old friend arrafat-the one who control the strong PLO).
the excuse about poorness lead to terror don't stand it as it on't stand against the middle class (or higher) terror of al-qaida.

Israel must accept that they [1]will have to compromise in key areas, something that will make them very unpopular (just look at the recent resettlement protests) and [2]it must accept that it will have to turn the other cheek to terrorist attacks (or at least not respond in its usual fashion)[1]we already did for many times. point your finger to the other side.
[2]no way. we had all the rights for self-defence. no country will let terrorists do whatever they want in their area, without taking an actions against the terrorists.
In return, the Palestinians have to find their feet and then come to the table with a willingness to show the same spirit of compromise, in all areas. They will have to demonstrate a slowly constricting grip on the terrorists and take steps to bring them publicly to justice. Introduce educational policies to combat the idea of terrorism itself.right. I see it happen when the hell will freeze

Yes, this will not be quick (it would probably take 30 years) and yes, this is not fair. But then nothing about this conflict is, and it needs to end.and in the meantime you want israel will stop the fight on terror and the self defence actions? after 10 years there will be no israel. great peace.

you mean like pullout from the strip or give them peace proposals? we already did. when the palastinians shown real desire for peace?
[quote]and things have only hardened on both sides. I genuinely despair of seeing any long lasting resolution to the issue and I suspect that my children will grow up reading of the increasing casualties and atrocities suffered and carried out by both sides in a fight that has already become generational and that has twisted the cultures of both sides.

lets hope for that.
still, the main issue is the fight on terror. after that is settled, the road for peace is open.

I do not think that's his point. The ideas, or the way they are expressed, are similar in any case.

Disagreement is not agression. You seem to be eager to earn more enemies to your cause, although.
I expressed the ideas of the zionism, Ideas which known in all the world ad nation state.
attackin specifically israel for this ideas is anti-zionism, some will also tell antisemitism.
I in no way, mean to stand here and here ridicilus posts comparing me to the nazis.

Israel has been sitting and trying to negotiate with the Arabs for 58 years. You say Israel has never truly tried to mediate and find an end to the situation but I can find endless examples of when Israel has negotiated a solution and the Palestinians have walked away from the table. Israel has made peace with Jordan AND Egypt...so Israel is most definately capable of sitting at the table. however, eace with Egypt was only achieved when a peace maker, Assad took power. Arafat turned down a deal in 2000 that gave them everything, and he didn't even bring out a counter-offer...he just started the Intifada a few months later...
you mean saddat. assad is the syrian war monger.

attackin specifically israel for this ideas is anti-zionism, some will also tell antisemitism.

Yes, yes...anyone who disagrees with Israel's policies hates Jews. :rolleyes:

Yes, yes...anyone who disagrees with Israel's policies hates Jews. :rolleyes:
israel policies which shared by all the other countries in the world.
specifing one part from a group is usually because of hatred to this part.

israel policies which shared by all the other countries in the world.
specifing one part from a group is usually because of hatred to this part.

Yes, because all other countries in the world agree with the policies of the government of Israel... :rolleyes:

Yes, yes...anyone who disagrees with Israel's policies hates Jews. :rolleyes:


What if I were to say " I hate the NAACP and its policies" wouldn't someone decry "RACIST!" SO why isn't the same for people that disagree with Israel's policies, to be called anti semite?

What if I were to say " I hate the NAACP and its policies" wouldn't someone decry "RACIST!" SO why isn't the same for people that disagree with Israel's policies, to be called anti semite?

Because both are logical fallacies.

Yes, because all other countries in the world agree with the policies of the government of Israel... :rolleyes:
you read the related posts? the policy of the nation state acknowladge by most of the world counties. he attack it and compare it to nazism.
this isn't logical fallacy.

Lest the fact be buried.

This is from the Declaration of the state of Israel.

The Jewish leadership wrote this:


We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel


The Neighboring Arabic nations responded THAT VERY DAY with this:


The 1948–49 War


As independence was declared, Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, and Iraq invaded Israel

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0856666.html





Enough said.

Israel has been sitting and trying to negotiate with the Arabs for 58 years. You say Israel has never truly tried to mediate and find an end to the situation but I can find endless examples of when Israel has negotiated a solution and the Palestinians have walked away from the table. ...

When have they offered to get out of the West Bank, take all of their settlements and offer back Arab East Jerusalem as a continous geographical entity? Never. And while the US is the arbitrator it will never happen.

When have they offered to get out of the West Bank, take all of their settlements and offer back Arab East Jerusalem as a continous geographical entity? Never. And while the US is the arbitrator it will never happen.


Every single time the Israelis have tried to trade land for peace, the terrorists launch attacks from those areas that Israel gave up.

The time for negotiations is long over. It is time to defeat the terrorists, once and for all.

Hamas' terror activities are well known to everyone...Hamas' and Israel' terror activities are well known to everyone..

I never really gave my view on this...

I support Israel, but I think a total invasion of Lebanon is a bit extreme.

BTW, has Israel declared war on Lebanon, or are they just going where they please?

Wooo, there we go. Israel strikes the airport again.

I never really gave my view on this...

I support Israel, but I think a total invasion of Lebanon is a bit extreme.

BTW, has Israel declared war on Lebanon, or are they just going where they please?

They had a war going unfinished, I think. I also think Israel could had used more...moderate measures in this issue. I just hope that all those civilians, IDF personnel and muslim fighters didn't die just for the israeli soldiers to get killed by trigger happy kidnappers. I hope those guys can return to their families safe, after all, it is the objetive

Or is the objetive to get higher oil prices?, that's going to give our own maniac lad more money to buy fancy russian toptech weapons.

They had a war going unfinished, I think.

Not a declared war. I dealt with that issue very early on in this thread.

I also think Israel could had used more...moderate measures in this issue.

Meh, perhaps.But negotiating, as Israel has done in the past, has only led to more kidnappings.

I just hope that all those civilians, IDF personnel and muslim fighters didn't die just for the israeli soldiers to get killed by trigger happy kidnappers. I hope those guys can return to their families safe, after all, it is the objetive

That would be very unfortunate, though not the most unfortunate potential outcome here...

Or is the objetive to get higher oil prices?, that's going to give our own maniac lad more money to buy fancy russian toptech weapons.

Heh, somehow I doubt Hezbullah has an interest in Chavez getting more Sukhois. Still, you made me chuckle with that. :D

Wooo, there we go. Israel strikes the airport again.

* Looking around, it wasn't me *

Every single time the Israelis have tried to trade land for peace, the terrorists launch attacks from those areas that Israel gave up.

The time for negotiations is long over. It is time to defeat the terrorists, once and for all.
HAMAS were the ones brokering for peace when they got into power, they were condemning attacks made by the various militant groups of Plaestine against Israel as well.

It was only when the Israelis shelled a beach and then blamed the casualties on the Palestinians that things went awry.

That would be very unfortunate, though not the most unfortunate potential outcome here...

WWIII? We'll join with two Sukhois, I guess



Heh, somehow I doubt Hezbullah has an interest in Chavez getting more Sukhois. Still, you made me chuckle with that. :D

You would be surprised of the reach of Chávez tentacles, I am sure this is a frame staged by him to get a raise in the oil prices. Hezbollah terrorists leaders have been visiting this country more than once. (this part is no joke, although the rest is), he convinced them, and the Hamas activists, to provoke Israel. After all, he's the only that seems to be winning something out of this mess, don't you think?

WWIII? We'll join with two Sukhois, I guess

Whoa! The world needs to watch out! ;)

You would be surprised of the reach of Chávez tentacles, I am sure this is a frame staged by him to get a raise in the oil prices. Hezbollah terrorists leaders have been visiting this country more than once. (this part is no joke, although the rest is), he convinced them, and the Hamas activists, to provoke Israel. After all, he's the only that seems to be winning something out of this mess, don't you think?

I'd read somewhere that Chávez had hosted some terrorist leaders. I've said it before, but I'll say it again: what a total fuckhead that guy is.

As for the joke part, well, every joke does have an element of truth to it...

These low intensity conflicts really seem to sap us nationally. Call it a death by 1000 cuts. Let it brew up into a clash of armies that we can smash and we have a better time of it. Physically returning the Arabs to the 12th Century where they are culturally might help things in the long run.

If not, its still pretty satisfying to fuck 'em up. Done right, the Palestinians, Syrians, and Iranians might incur casualties in the millions. That would certainly take a generation to recover.

They had a war going unfinished, I think. I also think Israel could had used more...moderate measures in this issue. I just hope that all those civilians, IDF personnel and muslim fighters didn't die just for the israeli soldiers to get killed by trigger happy kidnappers. I hope those guys can return to their families safe, after all, it is the objetive

Or is the objetive to get higher oil prices?, that's going to give our own maniac lad more money to buy fancy russian toptech weapons.


Some people forget that hezbolla makes up part of the Lebanese government . And that israel is attempting to make it more difficult to move the hostage soldiers around . Attempting to keep the area they must attack confined to where they were attacked from .

over one hundred missiles and rockets have been fired into israel from Lebenon. Aimed at cities and villages . Not to mention those being fired from Gaza . Supposedly controlled by the Palestinian state .

Name even one country that would allow that to happen ..being bombarded from an adjoining state .

Iran knowing this has pulled the puppet strings and stirred the pot .
you can expect oil to be 100.00 dollars or more a barrell by summers end .

"Palestine" which can historically claim a very small percentage of the land Israel now commands, but a much larger percentage of Lebanon is in a constant war with Israel. But they don't attack Lebanon...ever.

They teach their kids geography using a map that includes all of their current lands plus the lands of Israel and label it "Palestine".

And we're supposed to think there's ever going to be peace in that area without genocide? It's not so much a land thing as it is a war on the Jews. In case no one's noticed, that's generally what wars are fought about: Religion, land, natural resources. Christians did a pretty good job of the religious war a few centuries ago. Now Islam is on the same crusade. People fail to realize that or won't realize that thinking that these middle eastern countries think the same way we do. They don't. Western civilization for the most part "grew up". Their culture didn't. At all. If you haven't been in in of those countries to see it first hand, you might not understand that...but culturally, they are literally hundreds of years behind western nations.

They understand brute force. When my unit was in Iraq, we didn't have problems with the locals (insurgents)...because they knew they'd die. The unit before us got hammered...they were too "touchy feely" and didn't want to upset people. The unit after us...got hammered. They were too scared to leave the base. They look for soft targets. They respect strength.

So there's no easy solution like people here want to say. Palestine's not all of a sudden going to stop sending bombers because the EU says to and tries to give them a "goodie package" of incentives not to. They'll stop when they control the lands of Israel...or don't exist. It's really that simple. Sad...yes, but true. They feel Israel is sitting on/occupying their lands. They don't want concessions...they want "their" land back.

If you don't think religious struggles run that deep...how come there hasn't been a solution to the Northern Ireland problems? How long has that been going on?

Western civilization for the most part "grew up". Their culture didn't. At all. If you haven't been in in of those countries to see it first hand, you might not understand that...but culturally, they are literally hundreds of years behind western nations.



I have been to one of those countries, in fact I was born and lived in one for very long, and what your saying is absolute crap. These are the words of an ignorant, un-informed idiot.

So what if their culture is different, people do not have to embrace western culture to be civilised.

I have been to one of those countries, in fact I was born and lived in one for very long, and what your saying is absolute crap. These are the words of an ignorant, un-informed idiot.

So what if their culture is different, people do not have to embrace western culture to be civilised.

Bulldust.

In operational terms, civilisation = Western Culture or Sinitic Culture.

Owt but barbarians in distant places.

They don't do Bacon Sarnies, and they've got no chopsticks either.

Bulldust.

In operational terms, civilisation = Western Culture or Sinitic Culture.

Owt but barbarians in distant places.

They don't do Bacon Sarnies, and they've got no chopsticks either.

Rampant imperialism?

Intolerant.

Many nations in the middle east are modern, economically, technologically, etc.
Contrary to popular belief, the middle east posses televisions, and phones, and we in fact dont ride camels, but drive cars.

Their culture is ancient, and unique, yet technologically speaking they are civilised. (well atleast a number of them, such as lebanon, jordan, UAE, qatar, egypt, bahrain, kuwait, etc).

You dont need to embrace american culture to be civilised.

And I see you loved it there so much you continue to live there. Since apparently you're into ad hominem tactics...ironically the debating format for someone with no valid argument and being uninformed/ignorant. Mostly making my point...only understand brutality. They only understand lashing out instead of level headed debate.

Sorry if I felt like I was stepping into the middle ages with with automobiles when I was in Iraq. The way they do most things is exactly the same and hasn't changed since then. At one time Iraq was the academic center of the world. Apparently they decided good was good enough and haven't progressed much over the last 2000 years. There's a reason there's no middle eastern countries on the forefront of...well...anything in the world. I'm not saying our way of life is perfect...far from it. But Iraq is still very...Biblical.

Rampant imperialism?

Intolerant.


2 syllables: Kwei lo! Kwei lo! Kwei lo!

I can play that game just as well as you can.

There's a reason there's no middle eastern countries on the forefront of...well...anything in the world.

What the hell are u on about, for example, the UAE is one of the worlds fastest growing economies. They are at the forefront of developing tourism, as well as a number of mega projects which have put it on the map.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?
Yes, and yes.

Israeli leaders who gave the ok to that attack ought to be impeached for sheer stupidity and endangering of their country's safety. You don't just go around having your tanks drive into other countries without asking for permission searching for people to kill. That's an act of war.

Soon enough, all the nations of ME will league themselves against Israel. Good job with the peace process :rolleyes:

What the hell are u on about, for example, the UAE is one of the worlds fastest growing economies. They are at the forefront of developing tourism, as well as a number of mega projects which have put it on the map.


And how are they progressing in such matters as complete and total elimination of genital mutiliation, regardless of gender?

Soon enough, all the nations of ME will league themselves against Israel. Good job with the peace process

To be honest, the Middle eastern nations, such as Jordan and egypt will not attack Israel anytime in the near-future.
I could probably see Iran and Syria getting involved, but no one else will dare.

There is "different" and there is "primitive". Facing Mecca and praying 5 times a day is different. Calling for jihad over a dumb cartoon is primitive. Treating your women worse than you treat your camel is primitive.

And how are they progressing in such matters as complete and total elimination of genital mutiliation, regardless of gender?

Seriously, WTF are u on about?

Treating your women worse than you treat your camel is primitive.

The fact is this doesnt occur as common as the media might make it seem, most middle eastern countries are modern, and do in fact respect womens rights, besides some parts of Saudi Arabia.

Seriously, WTF are u on about?


Complete and total repression of circumcission, both for girls and boys.

Only the worst of barbarians would SERIOUSLY consider to so mutuliate toddlers.

No country ( be it jewish or muslim ) has the slightest right to be considered civilised until the last person who defends circumcission has been put in the madhouse!

Facing Mecca and praying 5 times a day is different.

Thought I should make it clear that not all arabs are muslims.

Thought I should make it clear that not all arabs are muslims.

Noted. It will make a big difference in the final reckoning.

Hezballoh moved into Israel first. Israel's supposed to do nothing?

And yes Asadia...I've seen the indoor ski resort...plans for islands...etc.

Yay. I'm glad they're doing something with their oil money that's somewhat worthwhile at least. What can you say for a country like Saudi Arabia? Huge economically. But what about human rights there? Women are allowed to do what in that country? Same with most every other country you mentioned. Very far behind with how women in particular are treated. Kuwait being probably one of the few exceptions.

I've met some Lebanese. Had schools with them. If their officers are any indication of how the rest of their society acts...not so impressed. Definitely some serious class structure divides there. Air of entitlement.

No country ( be it jewish or muslim ) has the slightest right to be considered civilised until the last person who defends circumcission has been put in the madhouse!

Wats wrong with circumcission? That no fucking reason to call a region primitive.
Plus, circimcission has health benefits as well.

Huge economically. But what about human rights there? Women are allowed to do what in that country? Same with most every other country you mentioned. Very far behind with how women in particular are treated. Kuwait being probably one of the few exceptions.


Kuwait is probably one of the worst as a matter of fact, as far as I know, in countries such as Jordan, UAE, Qatar, Lebanon, and much more, women are'nt treated like animals.

Wats wrong with circumcission? That no fucking reason to call a region primitive.
Plus, circimcission has health benefits as well.


That you mutilate a baby! It ain't just the region - it darned well looks like every individual in that region is just one rotten baby-mutilating... devil!

Every word uttered in defense of that vile practise of genital mutilation is yet another offense that demands ruthless punishment!

That you mutilate a baby! It ain't just the region - it darned well looks like every individual in that region is just one rotten baby-mutilating... devil!

Every word uttered in defense of that vile practise of genital mutilation is yet another offense that demands ruthless punishment!

Yep, this only comfirms my suspicion that you are retarded.

Circimcission is in fact good, not only is it traditional, it helps prevent the spread of aids and other diseases.

Yep, this only comfirms my suspicion that you are retarded.

Circimcission is in fact good, not only is it traditional, it helps prevent the spread of aids and other diseases.


That you defend it as traditional confirms my opinion that your culture is barbarian.

As I said before: civilisation = Western or Sinitic Culture.

The rest of the world: owt but barbarians.

Crap. We agree on something. ;) (Circumcision isn't a bad thing...)

That you defend it as traditional confirms my opinion that your culture is barbarian.

As I said before: civilisation = Western or Sinitic Culture.

The rest of the world: owt but barbarians.

Yep, u are definately inept. Your points for argument are truly idiotic.

That you defend it as traditional confirms my opinion that your culture is barbarian.

As I said before: civilisation = Western or Sinitic Culture.

The rest of the world: owt but barbarians.

what he said :fluffle:

By having traditions doesnt make a nation barbaric u retards, every nation has traditions, even the USA.

"Palestine" which can historically claim a very small percentage of the land Israel now commands, but a much larger percentage of Lebanon is in a constant war with Israel. But they don't attack Lebanon...ever.
snip

If you don't think religious struggles run that deep...how come there hasn't been a solution to the Northern Ireland problems? How long has that been going on?

More uneducated neo-conservative myths. To think that this is the level of people with a vote in a super-power is truly frightening.

"
the meantime they do nothing but serve in the british forces or work in the jewish market (until the arab rebilion which end it), ?

What percentage of the crop was Arab produced in 1946/47 O font of wisdom?


How does Israel cross the line??

The occupation and all associated with it.

Circumcision has no effect one way or the other on the spread of HIV or any other disease, so long as you're not an asshole and keep yourself clean. Exchange of fluid is the name of the game. Foreskin or no, you wash after sex unless you're a nasty fuck. The New England Journal of Medicine stated that the positive effects of circumcision are negligible and are not sufficient for them to recomend that any children be circumcised, much less all children.

Aesthetics. The only reason to get cut.

Now that that's been said, I'll say I hope Israel excersizes a bit of restraint, but they've got my backing. If you're a lone wolf in the lion's den, you don't wait around for the kitties to get to devouring you.

(Apologies for the typos and lack of sense. I worked all night. :( )

Circumcision has no effect one way or the other on the spread of HIV or any other disease, so long as you're not an asshole and keep yourself clean. Exchange of fluid is the name of the game. Foreskin or no, you wash after sex unless you're a nasty fuck. The New England Journal of Medicine stated that the positive effects of circumcision are negligible and are not sufficient for them to recomend that any children be circumcised, much less all children.

Aesthetics. The only reason to get cut.

Check this link out, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4371384.stm

Of course Lebanon will be a tad vexed. However, you do have to consider quite what they can actually do to combat the Israelis.

Check this link out, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4371384.stm


Watched a docu on circumcision last night. The British Medical Associations' head of ethics (I forget his name) is of the opinion that it is a barbaric practice and the slight medical advantages it has are massively outweighted by the quite high risks of morbidity and even mortality a major operation has.

You attributed the problems to everything EXCEPT the MAIN reason.

Excuse me? Attribute problems to everything? You obviously have a failure in reading comprehension here. If you really want to believe that a terrorist organization kidnapping two soldiers is grounds for invading the country from where they originated, or supposedly were supported by, then why didn't Soviet Russia glass Washington DC for arming the mujaheedin?

You just want to say "everything is the terrorists fault" and ignore the contributing factors that other nations play a role in. Keep that up, if you like your black and white world. Other people have color vision.

These low intensity conflicts really seem to sap us nationally. Call it a death by 1000 cuts. Let it brew up into a clash of armies that we can smash and we have a better time of it. Physically returning the Arabs to the 12th Century where they are culturally might help things in the long run.

If not, its still pretty satisfying to fuck 'em up. Done right, the Palestinians, Syrians, and Iranians might incur casualties in the millions. That would certainly take a generation to recover.
Iranians aren't Arabs.

Fuck sake, how many times do people have to be told....

you can't fight evil by give up. chambelin tried it with the nazis. terrorists trying to destroy israel. I can't see how it work negotiate them.

I am not suggesting that Israel give up. I am suggesting that it looks at other ways to fight terrorism than it currently uses.
I do not see the relveance of quoting the Chamberlin example.

terrorists are supported by the palastinians. that why they chose as majority party.

This is a very brave thing to say. Given that the limited choice that the Palestinians had during their elections I am unsurprised that they chose to explore a different route.
If you claim that the election of Hamas indicates that all Palestinians support terrorists (and thus are deserving of the treatment dealt to them by Israel) then I would point you toward this piece:

"The Israeli Prime Minister Menachim Begun, in his earlier days before being elected to that position, personally led a team of terrorists that blew up Hotel David in 1946, aiming to wipe out the British headquarters based at that time in the Hotel. He did quite a good job murdering 90 people. Besides the British soldiers he murdered, there were some unavoidable deaths of Arabs and Jews who worked there too."

Now, I do not think that you would argue that all Israelies should bear responsiblity for this act. Nor do I think that. However, uncharitable people would draw parallels between the two. I would caution your broad use of generalisation.

still, we didn't blame all the palastinians for the acts of terrorists. we fight the terror anytime anyplace, and we trying to avoid more civilians deaths. you continue to ignore that.

Yes, I do. I ignore it because I do not believe that it is true. I hold this view because the British government (for all its many mistakes in Northern Ireland) did not resort to firing missiles or bombs into civillian areas, or using snipers who regularly killed children (even accidentally), or driving tanks through built up areas, or being invovled in incidents such as the Jenin refugee camp.

your description of israeli cold-blodded murder of children is almost pure anti-semitic.

I regret that you see it that way. Unfortunately, there have been several documented cases where soldiers of the IDF have done this. I will reference them if you wish but I assume they are common knowledge.
I also have issues with British and US troops killing families in Iraq but I did not mention that as I did not see its relevance in this thread.

collective punishment? maybe fight on terror. we don't go after their terror attacks and shot their cities for fun.
again, you trying color the complex picture by your beliefs ignoring the sad reality.

What would you call the targeting of the power station, the bombing of the bridges, the closing of the crossing points and the blockade of the docks? I do not see how these only affect terrorists. I would suggest the same goes for the killing of the civillians caught by IDF 'anti-terror' initiatives.

when they had autority they used it to more terror.
they continue with terror during the "ceasefire". it make us defend ourselves and fight the terror until this "peace" show up.

I addressed this in my original post.

agreements year ago? right. the ones when we tried to give them state on almost all the territories, and they refused and decided to mainstrate in more terror. or the goodwill pullout from the strip, which surprisingly lead to more terror.

I was unaware that Israel offered to adhere to the pre-1967 borders. The 'goodwill' pullout from the strip was anything but, as was made rapidly obvious.

they get more global aid than any other country in the world! they got all the jobs, food and education (which is full with propoganda and brainwashing against israel) right before they refused to our peace proposal and start the second Intifada (surprisingly, it involved many terror attacks which supported by the old friend arrafat-the one who control the strong PLO).
the excuse about poorness lead to terror don't stand it as it on't stand against the middle class (or higher) terror of al-qaida.

Yet strangely they seem quite poor... Interestingly, on another thread, you say that brainwashing is impossible in a democracy and you have pointed to Palestine's democracies on several occasions. Personally, I believe that brainwashing is possible in a democracy but there must be reasons/incidents/fears to play upon. I would seek to remove those and thus deny the terrorists easy recruitment.
I'm unsure as to the relevance of Al-Qaida in this discussion.

no way. we had all the rights for self-defence. no country will let terrorists do whatever they want in their area, without taking an actions against the terrorists.

I am not sure that the actions of the IDF constitute purely 'self defence'. Once more I would point you in the direction of Britain, or even Spain (although I do not know as much about Eta). Both are conspicous for their lack of direct military responses to terror in the last few years.

and in the meantime you want israel will stop the fight on terror and the self defence actions? after 10 years there will be no israel. great peace.

No, as I repeatedly stated I would like to see them try something that has actually worked in other areas rather than continue with a policy that has obviously failed for most of the last decades.


On another note, you have accused me of being anti-semetic in several of your posts. Aside from you knowing very little about me or the motivations behind my statements, I would appreciate it if you refrain from name calling/ insults as I do not think they serve a useful purpose or help the flow of debate. Personally I think that such behaviour is one of the most unpleasant aspects of internet posting and its eradication would be of benefit to all. Thank you in advance.

snip

*blinks*

Welcome to NS.

That you mutilate a baby! It ain't just the region - it darned well looks like every individual in that region is just one rotten baby-mutilating... devil!

Every word uttered in defense of that vile practise of genital mutilation is yet another offense that demands ruthless punishment!

Are we speaking about the right to invade an other nation?