NationStates Jolt Archive

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?

Well, I'll wait for more details first before saying much other than the movement of troops to any sovereign territory not yours without the host nation's permission is an invasion.

And as to how can they move there, more likely than not, it was because Lebanon can't really stop them short of declaring war, although that's a bit moot since Israel has already invaded them strictly speaking.

It's just like that time Israel bombed someplace in Lebanon on the same excuse. They got away with it because they had enough military might to force anything they want there.

Which is one reason why a nuclear Iran might be a good power check on Israel. I'm sure the usual crowd of "flatten Iran"ers will jump on this, but until Israel gets reined in by it's biggest supporters, this is the only way to make it toe the line.

You don't send armed forces into other countries without their permission unless you want a war. And if this keeps up, Israel would be begging for one on both knees.

Well, I got this from the Beeb.
Hezbollah seizes Israel soldiers.
The Lebanese Shia militant group Hezbollah has captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes across the Lebanese-Israeli border.
There has been heavy fighting in the area, with Hezbollah firing rockets and Israel responding with tank and artillery fire, as well as air strikes.

Aircraft struck roads, bridges and guerrilla posts, Lebanese sources say, and there are reports of casualties.

Israel's PM said anyone trying to test its resolve would "pay a heavy price".

Israel says it is holding the Lebanese government responsible for the fate of the two soldiers, and demands immediate action.

Israeli ground troops have entered southern Lebanon to search for the two soldiers, Israeli officials said.

Rest of Story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm)

Well, it wouldn't be the first time. Lebanon is being treated as a bit of a joke country by everyone else.

Not to mention that Israel and Lebanon [and Syria] are actually still in a state of war from before...technically, Israel isnt doing anything accept crossing the border of a country they're at war with.

My guess is, the troops drove.

Any rate Isreal has enough military power to do pretty much whatever they want, and I think they're still at war, so, no big deal.

Well, I got this from the Beeb.


Rest of Story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm)
Wait a tick?

Is the IDF run by schoolboys or something?

"We went into Southern Lebanon, an act of war, and we were shocked when 2 people were killed and another 2 captured, all of whom were soldiers".

Well yes... it was an offensive action into another state's land... what did you really expect to happen?




Oh and the Isrealis are telling everyone on their side of the border to go into their bomb shelters. This worries me, a lot.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?
Yes and yes.

I hate to say this, but when you model a state after the US...

It's not the first time, Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in order to weed out the PLO, which they did pretty quickly, with little resistance from the Lebanese. In fact, Israel had some support from some Lebanese groups. Nevertheless, Lebanon is a complex country, and its politics are tricky.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?


How to move troops: Armoured Personnel Carriers.

How to stop troops moving in Armoured Personnel Carriers: tankfire.

Number of lebanese tanks: zero.

tankfire times number of lebanese tanks = zero

relevance of lebanese going mad = tankfire times number of lebanese tanks * NationalAngerRating_of_Lebanon =.... zero.

I hate to say this, but when you model a state after the US...
I wish the United States military were more like the IDF. Here they are, looking for their captured troops, while we prosecute ours.

I wish the United States military were more like the IDF. Here they are, looking for their captured troops, while we prosecute ours.

Bollocks. The United States military is almost exactly like the IDF, or vice versa when it comes to prosecuting their own. Both of them give show trials when their troops commit war crimes and deliver slaps on the wrists or not at all.

If you think otherwise, I dare you to show me any case of a US soldier convicted of committing war crimes and getting anything more than a laughable sentence when a civilian doing the same crime would get the chair or life in jail.

...which they did pretty quickly, with little resistance from the Lebanese.
Yep, quickest 18 years there ever were, including some rather ugly episodes involving dead civilians in their hundreds...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War

How to stop troops moving in Armoured Personnel Carriers: tankfire.


Not really no. Lots of stuff can halt an APC.

I think Israel has occupied parts of Lebanon at times when the Hezbollah were really active.

Not really no. Lots of stuff can halt an APC.

Which other means are applicable when it comes to Lebanon? :p

Which other means are applicable when it comes to Lebanon? :p

Ever heard of this thing called a land mine? It's an ingenious device which you bury under the road and wait for someone, or a vehicle depending on how much explosives it's packing, to step/drive on it.

Cheap, easy to make, and a big bang if you have enough explosives. And you don't have to stay around to watch the results.

Don't need no fancy smancy tanks.

Which other means are applicable when it comes to Lebanon? :p

I think they have more than pointy sticks there. :rolleyes:

Wait a tick?

Is the IDF run by schoolboys or something?

"We went into Southern Lebanon, an act of war, and we were shocked when 2 people were killed and another 2 captured, all of whom were soldiers".

Well yes... it was an offensive action into another state's land... what did you really expect to happen?


I don't know what happened first, border clashes, troops being seized and then the incursions/invasion or incursion/invasion; then the seizing.

Wait a tick?

Is the IDF run by schoolboys or something?

"We went into Southern Lebanon, an act of war, and we were shocked when 2 people were killed and another 2 captured, all of whom were soldiers".

Well yes... it was an offensive action into another state's land... what did you really expect to happen?





Oh and the Isrealis are telling everyone on their side of the border to go into their bomb shelters. This worries me, a lot.
actually, the capture is the reason for the invasion.
Hizbulla always want to capture israeli soldiers and they got oppurtunity. especially now when they trying to help the hammas terrorists with the blackmail on israel to free all the terrorists from the jail.

I just saw the hizbulla claim they destroyed israeli tank. history tell they usually said the truth. israeli cabinet will make meeting in 19:00 by israel clock.

Ever heard of this thing called a land mine? It's an ingenious device which you bury under the road and wait for someone, or a vehicle depending on how much explosives it's packing, to step/drive on it.

Cheap, easy to make, and a big bang if you have enough explosives. And you don't have to stay around to watch the results.

Don't need no fancy smancy tanks.


So how come the Zvai Hagannah LeYisrael moves as it pleases?

A short msg to snti-Israeli Lebanese: PWNed.

I think they have more than pointy sticks there. :rolleyes:



I don't know what happened first, border clashes, troops being seized and then the incursions/invasion or incursion/invasion; then the seizing.


Which ones? Cuz I'm getting the feeling the IDF is nonruffled.

Israel will find any excuse to engage in their favourite past time, war.

The Israeli government is holding the lebanese government responsible, the lebanese government has less power than a fly.

Israel will find any excuse to engage in their favourite past time, war.

The Israeli government is holding the lebanese government responsible, the lebanese government has less power than a fly.
so this is the formal excuse from now?
-terrorists attack israel from arab area.
-israel demand the rulers of this area take immidiate actions against the terrorists.
-arabs says they are weak and can't do nothing.
-israel take actions by herselves against the terror.
-arab rulers says we invade the area under their control (which the said the hadn't).

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?

Israelis have never given a damn **** for other countries' territorial integrity. They do as they wish just because they have the ability to. Israel is devoid of any decency.

Lebanon is a complex country, and its politics are tricky.

All countries are complex and pretty much all countries have tricky politics. Politicians ARE tricky (putting it politely).

As for the invasion, why are any of you suprised? Israel has been throwing it's weight around since it was founded in 1948. Back then, fair enough as it had to defend itself from Soviet backed Arab countries, but now, it's the most powerful country in the whole damn middle east.

Road Map to Peace anyone?:(

So how come the Zvai Hagannah LeYisrael moves as it pleases?

A short msg to snti-Israeli Lebanese: PWNed.

Tell that to the IDF. I think they might want to introduce you to something called reality.

Israelis have never given a damn **** for other countries' territorial integrity. They do as they wish just because they have the ability to. Israel is devoid of any decency.

perhaps. it's what happens if your military expenses are paid by the USA, it gives you a greater ability to do what, in their heart, most countries wish to do. And quite a lot actualy realy do what they wish to do

Israelis have never given a damn **** for other countries' territorial integrity. They do as they wish just because they have the ability to. Israel is devoid of any decency.Just because you don't hear any Israeli criticism of military actions performed by their Government doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Yep, quickest 18 years there ever were, including some rather ugly episodes involving dead civilians in their hundreds...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War

I notice you conveniently snipped my quote :"weed out the PLO, which they did pretty quickly".

The PLO were removed far more quickly than that.

perhaps. it's what happens if your military expenses are paid by the USA, it gives you a greater ability to do what, in their heart, most countries wish to do. And quite a lot actualy realy do what they wish to do
USA give us only 2 bilions of dollars. it is far from pay our expenses, which are much largers.

USA give us only 2 bilions of dollars. it is far from pay our expenses, which are much largers.

The goverment...And the jewish community in USA gives you how much?

Just asking

Tell that to the IDF. I think they might want to introduce you to something called reality.


Know any of their generals personally?

*grin* I'm on the Channuka list for some aluvim.

I doubt that they'd care to send a card to anyone who is 'non-aligned'.

USA give us only 2 bilions of dollars. it is far from pay our expenses, which are much largers.

I appologise, I was exagerating

but, you must admit that, if israel did not recieve this subsidy, and many of the others it recieves, it's military paycheck would have to be much smaller? making it a lot less aggresive?

It's not the first time, Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in order to weed out the PLO, which they did pretty quickly, with little resistance from the Lebanese. In fact, Israel had some support from some Lebanese groups. Nevertheless, Lebanon is a complex country, and its politics are tricky.

Not just the PLO but Syrian troops as well.

And complex doesn't even begin to describe the mess that is Lebanon.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?

Let's see...

Hezbollah troops cross into Israel and kidnap Israeli soldiers....

Sure, you can retaliate. Hezbollah crossed first...

Did anyone read the article? Israel is going in because they were raided from Lebanon and two soldiers were kidnapped. The first act... came from Lebanon, so Israel didn't start it.

More importantly...

Do Women Football/Soccer players chest the ball, wouldn't it hurt?

More importantly...

Do Women Football/Soccer players chest the ball, wouldn't it hurt?

Well, sometimes women football players take off their shirts - which makes it more fun to watch.

I can't wait till the EU (Israel has the US round it's finger), Israel's largest partner in trade and the largest donor of aid to the Palestinians, steps in to stop this whole conflict. All it requires is two things. The EU needs to help stop the terrorists in the short-term and to help the Palestinians with a security force to prevent them in the medium- to long-term. In terms of Israel, the EU just needs to use the stick by threatening to cut off trade with Israel and the carrot of increased trade if they obey the grown ups and the possibility of joining the EU when there is finally peace in the Middle East.

The sooner the USA loses its place as the world's only superpower, the sooner Israel will have to listen to us sensible, non war-mongering Europeans.

The sooner the USA loses its place as the world's only superpower, the sooner Israel will have to listen to us sensible, non war-mongering Europeans.

Your arrogance is astounding. :rolleyes:

i know what happened, but the kidnapping of 2 soldiers shouldnt be reason to call up 6000 reservists, like in a full scale invasion, among things. Further it wasnt lebanon that attacked, but a militant group called hezbollah

i know what happened, but the kidnapping of 2 soldiers shouldnt be reason to call up 6000 reservists, like in a full scale invasion, among things. Further it wasnt lebanon that attacked, but a militant group called hezbollah

Which the Lebanese government fails to control.

I can't wait till the EU (Israel has the US round it's finger), Israel's largest partner in trade and the largest donor of aid to the Palestinians, steps in to stop this whole conflict. All it requires is two things. The EU needs to help stop the terrorists in the short-term and to help the Palestinians with a security force to prevent them in the medium- to long-term. In terms of Israel, the EU just needs to use the stick by threatening to cut off trade with Israel and the carrot of increased trade if they obey the grown ups and the possibility of joining the EU when there is finally peace in the Middle East.

The sooner the USA loses its place as the world's only superpower, the sooner Israel will have to listen to us sensible, non war-mongering Europeans.


It does not behoove us Europeans to have any form of dialogue with the Palestinians till the last Shariatic tosser has been evicted out of their midst.

Show me how you can moderately stone a woman - and I'll show you how you can moderately oppose Shari'a.

The goverment...And the jewish community in USA gives you how much?

Just asking
prove what? that other jewish care for israel.
maybe the right question is why the arab states and citizens who gave this ammounts to the palastinians, as much as the the EU, the UN and others, and still the palastinians build nothing but terror camps?

Prove nothing, I said just asking.

Arab terrorists are scum, and you Israelis are making a fine, good job at lpacing yourselves at their level, mostly by the respect you show to international law and your neighbours. Check how it is done in other places. Colombian guerrilla kidnaps periodically citizens from the neighbouring states, and not a single one attacks Colombia for that cause, crossing the border to "catch the outlaws". The usual solution is negotiation.

Israel has gone nuts, and your country seems to have an inflated ego. There is no excuse for an invasion of a neighbour like that

prove what? that other jewish care for israel.
maybe the right question is why the arab states and citizens who gave this ammounts to the palastinians, as much as the the EU, the UN and others, and still the palastinians build nothing but terror camps?


bridges, airports, harbors, electricity centrals, any infrastructure, are destroyed, confiscated or blockaded by israel on a regular basis.

Palestina has an airport, and a harbor, a lot of the money went into it, to stimulate economy, but israel does not allow planes to land or ships to dock. This was small news several years ago, since palestinian diplomats have to go through israeli airports and checkpoints... there was some kind of outrage on how an ambassador was treated i think

I appologise, I was exagerating

but, you must admit that, if israel did not recieve this subsidy, and many of the others it recieves, it's military paycheck would have to be much smaller? making it a lot less aggresive?
israel will do what need for defence. it isn't agression, but counter- terror acts.
telling that USA make us defend ourseleves by their subsides sound as weak conspiracy to me.
btw, similars amounts going from usa to other ally regimes. jordan and egypt, for example.

I wish the United States military were more like the IDF. Here they are, looking for their captured troops, while we prosecute ours.

Do you have ANY idea what would happen to IDF soldiers if they were charged with what the US troops are accused of?

I'm not saying the Palestinians are a model group (can't say country), but basically, in these wars, they're all as bad as each other. It is absolutely wrong for some Palestinians to believe that terrorism is acceptable. But it's also totally against international law for Israel to adjust the borders of its country. I don't hate the USA either, but in terms of foreign policy and funding different groups of people their governments have sometimes been foolish.

israel will do what need for defence. it isn't agression, but counter- terror acts.
telling that USA make us defend ourseleves by their subsides sound as weak conspiracy to me.
btw, similars amounts going from usa to other ally regimes. jordan and egypt, for example.

No, similar amounts only to Egypt, per the Camp David Accords, and still not as much. Jordan doesn't receive nearly as much US aid as either Israel or Egypt, who are, in fact, the two largest recipients of US aid.

Israel has gone nuts, and your country seems to have an inflated ego. There is no excuse for an invasion of a neighbour like that

As stated, technically the two nations have been engaged in warfare for years now.

If you declare war, expect to have people move into your country, price ya pay.

I'm not saying the Palestinians are a model group (can't say country), but basically, in these wars, they're all as bad as each other. It is absolutely wrong for some Palestinians to believe that terrorism is acceptable. But it's also totally against international law for Israel to adjust the borders of its country. I don't hate the USA either, but in terms of foreign policy and funding different groups of people their governments have sometimes been foolish.


I am not even on about Terrorism.

I am on about Shari'a.

Until the Palestinians take a strong anti-Shari'a stand we should have owt to do with 'em, and let 'em rot, burn and die.

Tell me how you can moderately stone a woman, and I'll tell you how you can moderately oppose Shari'a.

I totally agree with Aelosia.

Prove nothing, I said just asking.

Arab terrorists are scum, and you Israelis are making a fine, good job at lpacing yourselves at their level, mostly by the respect you show to international law and your neighbours. Check how it is done in other places. Colombian guerrilla kidnaps periodically citizens from the neighbouring states, and not a single one attacks Colombia for that cause, crossing the border to "catch the outlaws". The usual solution is negotiation.

With all due respect, my dear, Colombia has a government with which its neighbours can negotiate with some effect. Lebanon's government is toothless.

As stated, technically the two nations have been engaged in warfare for years now.

If you declare war, expect to have people move into your country, price ya pay.

Yeah, and it was a provocation entirely needed in this specific situation, right now.

I guess Sharon will have to revive through a miracle and twap Ohmert a bit

I can't wait till the EU steps in to stop this whole conflict. All it requires is two things. The EU needs to help stop the terrorists in the short-term and to help the Palestinians with a security force to prevent them in the medium- to long-term.

LMAO what color is the sky in your world? Lets start with EU needs to stop the terrorists in the short term. OH is THAT all they have to do? Wow who knew the solution was THAT easy. OH i forgot, what happens when the Pallys tell the EU that they will stop all violence then one or 7 of the 30 factions goes and blows up Israerlis anyway because its in thier own best interest not to have a ceasefire as that is what creates thier public support? But no worries as im SURE the EU has solutions that NONE else has been able to come up with for the last 30 years. And im SURE that EU can stop terrorists that dont want to be stopped, living in a government that doesnt even WANT them to stop. Good luck with that.

bridges, airports, harbors, electricity centrals, any infrastructure, are destroyed, confiscated or blockaded by israel on a regular basis.

Palestina has an airport, and a harbor, a lot of the money went into it, to stimulate economy, but israel does not allow planes to land or ships to dock. This was small news several years ago, since palestinian diplomats have to go through israeli airports and checkpoints... there was some kind of outrage on how an ambassador was treated i think
they blocked after they used for bringing terrorists and weaponary.
the palastinians always over-use our will to go for them, and then cried because we take this goodwill acts away.

With all due respect, my dear, Colombia has a government with which its neighbours can negotiate with some effect. Lebanon's government is toothless.

Please, our president is Chávez, the lamest negotiator ever, and yet we manage to negotiate in such cases. Plus, as exactly you described the Lebanon goverment, the colombian goverment do not hold any kind of control over the FARC, actually, they always excuse themselves of "not being able to control the guerrilla". It is exactly the same situation.

Wait a tick?

Is the IDF run by schoolboys or something?

"We went into Southern Lebanon, an act of war, and we were shocked when 2 people were killed and another 2 captured, all of whom were soldiers".

Well yes... it was an offensive action into another state's land... what did you really expect to happen?


Is that a joke??? Hezbollah attacked Israel and only then did Israel invade. Wake up and get off your anti-Israel horse. No other country in the world would tolerate having its oldiers attacked by a guerilla group that is sheltered by the Lebanese governement because they are controlled by Syria.

Please, our president is Chávez, the lamest negotiator ever, and yet we manage to negotiate in such cases. Plus, as exactly you described the Lebanon goverment, the colombian goverment do not hold any kind of control over the FARC, actually, they always excuse themselves of "not being able to control the guerrilla". It is exactly the same situation.

Well, the FARC ( nor any other group in Colombia ) is suspected of having an agenda which involves the eradication of an entire race.
UNLIKE The Arab leaguee, we might add.
Darfur - Kurds... we can't even pretend that the Arabs are in it just to be anti-jewish.

But it's also totally against international law for Israel to adjust the borders of its country.

I dont know if you noticed, but Israel did offer to fix those borders back to how they were in 2000. The Clinton Barrack proposals offered the PA 95% of the West bank, all of Gaza and East Jerusalem. They refused and resorted to viloence. To resort to vilonce is to reject diplomacy. Vilonce should not be rewarded by more land. The PA were given a chance to have everything they wanted back (West Bank and Gaza) and they rejected it. As a result they will almost certianly get less land next time a negotiation comes round

BogMarsh. You consider yourself moderate with "let 'em rot, burn and die". Until Israel stops sezing the Palestinians government officials and offices, they can't bloody take a stand against anything. The more the Israeli government mistreats the Palestinians, the less likely any education or democracy can occur for the Palestinians to modernise. Slavery used to be the 'norm', but as people were educated and democracy grew, nations realised it was morally wrong. Morals change over time, through civilisation.

Please, our president is Chávez, the lamest negotiator ever, and yet we manage to negotiate in such cases.

But he's got a great TV show, no? ;)

Plus, as exactly you described the Lebanon goverment, the colombian goverment do not hold any kind of control over the FARC, actually, they always excuse themselves of "not being able to control the guerrilla". It is exactly the same situation.

Not really. The FARC has its camps in a jungle. Hezbullah's are right out in the open in the Beka'a Valley and should be pretty damn easy to find. Bogotá at least makes an effort to combat the FARC. Beirut does no such thing.

Which country assassinated their own prime minister for being too moderate - Israel.

BogMarsh. You consider yourself moderate with "let 'em rot, burn and die". Until Israel stops sezing the Palestinians government officials and offices, they can't bloody take a stand against anything. The more the Israeli government mistreats the Palestinians, the less likely any education or democracy can occur for the Palestinians to modernise. Slavery used to be the 'norm', but as people were educated and democracy grew, nations realised it was morally wrong. Morals change over time, through civilisation.


Let me make something very plain and simple:
no person who has the slightest amount of sympathy with stoning girlies because they were raped has the right to be considered a human being.

The Palestinians voted for Shari'a.
why don't you moderately stone them, and ask 'em how they like it?

No talk about dialogue, or change - abolition NOW!

Yeah, and it was a provocation entirely needed in this specific situation, right now.

I guess Sharon will have to revive through a miracle and twap Ohmert a bit

Whether it was a smart move or not, don't say there is "no excuse" for it. Having war declared on your nation is a pretty good excuse to move troops into the war mongering nation whenever you damn well please.

Which country assassinated their own prime minister for being too moderate - Israel.

The entire state of Israel assassinated Ben Gurian? Really?

I guess the entire nation of America attempted to kill Reagan because Jody Foster told us to....

What difference does one lunatic make?

Whether it was a smart move or not, don't say there is "no excuse" for it. Having war declared on your nation is a pretty good excuse to move troops into the war mongering nation whenever you damn well please.

Hello...

The Lebanese military didn't invade Israel. There was no declaration of war by Beirut. While I agree that Israel's move into Lebanon is justified, you need to get your bloody facts straight.

BogMarsh. . Until Israel stops sezing the Palestinians government officials and offices, they can't bloody take a stand against anything. The more the Israeli government mistreats the Palestinians, the less likely any education or democracy can occur for the Palestinians to modernise.

The reason Palestinain officials and offices are siezed is because these people are doing the exact opposite of education and democracy. Israelis dont run around capturing Palestinains that truely want peace and an honest end to conflict.

The entire state of Israel assassinated Ben Gurian? Really?

I guess the entire nation of America attempted to kill Reagan because Jody Foster told us to....

What difference does one lunatic make?

Jody Foster told me to quote your post.

Well, the FARC ( nor any other group in Colombia ) is suspected of having an agenda which involves the eradication of an entire race.
UNLIKE The Arab leaguee, we might add.
Darfur - Kurds... we can't even pretend that the Arabs are in it just to be anti-jewish.

I hope this is supposed to be...ironic.

The FARC is a communist, ideological based guerrilla fighter group. Race do not have anything to do with it, I don't know from where you did find that.

The "Aló Presidente" show sucks, big time. My own show usually makes fun of it.

There is also urban guerrilla, and I think that with the current technology, you cannot say you're not able to find camps of over 5,000 in a jungle, sorry but I do not buy that. I just think the colombian army is overstretched and cannot handle it.

So you think Israel attacks Palestinians and even bloody foreign aid workers because of stoning - come on! The original refugees to Israel even bloody killed the British soldiers in Palestine despite no provocation.

Hello...

The Lebanese military didn't invade Israel. There was no declaration of war by Beirut. While I agree that Israel's move into Lebanon is justified, you need to get your bloody facts straight.

Operation Peace of the Galilee

There never has been, if I am correct, an official cease fire and end to the conflict.

Quoting Wiki (emphasis mine):

With U.S. assistance, Israel and Lebanon reached an accord in May 1983 that set the stage to withdraw Israeli forces from Lebanon. The instruments of ratification were never exchanged, however, and in March 1984, under pressure from Syria, Lebanon canceled the agreement. In January 1985 Israel started to withdraw most of its troops, leaving a small residual Israeli force and an Israeli-supported militia in southern Lebanon in a "security zone," which Israel considered a necessary buffer against attacks on its northern territory.

The FARC is a communist, ideological based guerrilla fighter group. Race do not have anything to do with it, I don't know from where you did find that.

They started out that way, but they're more like a band of criminals than anything else these days. The ideology's pretty much fallen by the wayside and is basically used just for propaganda to get support from the lower classes.

The "Aló Presidente" show sucks, big time. My own show usually makes fun of it.

I know. I've seen some of it. I was being sarcastic. ;)

I'd love to catch your show sometime.

There is also urban guerrilla, and I think that with the current technology, you cannot say you're not able to find camps of over 5,000 in a jungle, sorry but I do not buy that. I just think the colombian army is overstretched and cannot handle it.

True, but the difference is that Bogotá tries. Beirut sits on its collective thumb. At best, maybe they rotate on it a little bit.

Operation Peace of the Galilee

There never has been, if I am correct, an official cease fire and end to the conflict

Operation =/= declared war. You fail at history.

I don't hear FARC calling for genocide either. Not like I hear from Palestinian schoolbooks.

I hope this is supposed to be...ironic.

The FARC is a communist, ideological based guerrilla fighter group. Race do not have anything to do with it, I don't know from where you did find that.

The "Aló Presidente" show sucks, big time. My own show usually makes fun of it.

There is also urban guerrilla, and I think that with the current technology, you cannot say you're not able to find camps of over 5,000 in a jungle, sorry but I do not buy that. I just think the colombian army is overstretched and cannot handle it.

I'm not being ironic.
The problems between the FARC or the Narcos on one hand and the State on the other hand are political in nature.
The relations between Negroes in South Sudan, or Kurds in Kurdistand, or Jews in Israel on one hand and the Arab League on the other hand are racial in nature: the purpose of the Arabs is to genocide 'em out of existence.

As Nazi Germany, the Confederate States, and the Mongol Empire before it, the Arab League must be seen as a pure Empire of Darkness.

It is always the lunatics who commit these atrocities and it seems, with this continuous pointless war, there are a hell of a lot of lunatics on both sides.

The US did that to Mexico, I think. I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the one that springs to mind. Basically, you don't declare war, and the smaller country that doesn't have a military capable of fighting you puts up a commerative plaque.

Actually, I think the plaque was from that time that we were at war with Mexico, but still.

So you think Israel attacks Palestinians and even bloody foreign aid workers because of stoning - come on! The original refugees to Israel even bloody killed the British soldiers in Palestine despite no provocation.

Nope.
I am saying that WE, Europeans, must refuse to have any form of contact-other-than-by-automatic-armsfire with the Palestinians.

Whether it was a smart move or not, don't say there is "no excuse" for it. Having war declared on your nation is a pretty good excuse to move troops into the war mongering nation whenever you damn well please.

I didn't see the Beirut's war declaration, sorry but I cannot agree with you.

It's on the radio, not on TV, my show I mean...

And yeah, everyone knows that Uribe tries hard. I love that guy, he really is trying to make Colombia a safer country.

Operation =/= declared war. You fail at history.

Fine, i will amend my statement.

When you openly attack another nation, and then fail to ratify any formal ceasefire, effectivly continuing the conflict, you deserve to be invaded at any time until such time as you do formally end the conflict.

Sure, operation is not the same as declaration of war, that being said the effect is the same.

I didn't see the Beirut's war declaration, sorry but I cannot agree with you.



Right below this post I amended my comment, declaration of war absent, Lebanon helped create a conflict with israel, and then backed out of any formal ceasefire to that conflict, which, in effect, has continued the conflict ever since.

The EU is a multilateral international organisation and with the Middle East getting ever closer it has to take decisive action in these continuous wars or 'operations'. The EU would lose its reputation as a reliable negotiator if it took sides and supported Israel and attacked the Palestinians. That would go against the views of most Europeans and the Muslims of Europe would be even more outraged than they already are with the UK for Iraq and Denmark for the whole cartoon thing.

The EU is a multilateral international organisation and with the Middle East getting ever closer it has to take decisive action in these continuous wars or 'operations'. The EU would lose its reputation as a reliable negotiator if it took sides and supported Israel and attacked the Palestinians. That would go against the views of most Europeans and the Muslims of Europe would be even more outraged than they already are with the UK for Iraq and Denmark for the whole cartoon thing.

Well, I guess it is about time WE became outraged at those muslims.

It's on the radio, not on TV, my show I mean...

Is there a way to get it on the web?

And yeah, everyone knows that Uribe tries hard. I love that guy, he really is trying to make Colombia a safer country.

He is, and therein lies the difference. The Lebanese government makes no effort whatsoever to control Hezbullah, so Israel is forced to take matters into its own hands.

Oh, and as an aside, Uribe should be commended for developing the Colombian military to deal with the threat at hand, by purchasing helicopters to access the remote regions in which the FARC makes it bases, as well as intelligence gear to track the bastards. Unlike a certain Venezuelan leader, who seems to think that he needs new MiGs...

I'm not being ironic.
The problems between the FARC or the Narcos on one hand and the State on the other hand are political in nature.
The relations between Negroes in South Sudan, or Kurds in Kurdistand, or Jews in Israel on one hand and the Arab League on the other hand are racial in nature: the purpose of the Arabs is to genocide 'em out of existence.

As Nazi Germany, the Confederate States, and the Mongol Empire before it, the Arab League must be seen as a pure Empire of Darkness.

That was my point. You said that the FARC problem was racial by nature, and I corrected you saying it was political and not racial.

The Arab League is a Empire of Darkess, I do agree there

But Israel is far from being the superhero fighting the evil guys, it is just another evil warlord that seems to have a hatred for the bigger looming evil.

Fine, i will amend my statement.

When you openly attack another nation, and then fail to ratify any formal ceasefire, effectivly continuing the conflict, you deserve to be invaded at any time until such time as you do formally end the conflict.

Sure, operation is not the same as declaration of war, that being said the effect is the same.

Lebanon didn't attack Israel, though. It was militant groups backed by Syrian forces (the latter setting up SAM sites around the PLO bases in the Beka'a valley). That's why your argument falls flat on its face.

Is there a way to get it on the web?



He is, and therein lies the difference. The Lebanese government makes no effort whatsoever to control Hezbullah, so Israel is forced to take matters into its own hands.

Oh, and as an aside, Uribe should be commended for developing the Colombian military to deal with the threat at hand, by purchasing helicopters to access the remote regions in which the FARC makes it bases, as well as intelligence gear to track the bastards. Unlike a certain Venezuelan leader, who seems to think that he needs new MiGs...

Not MiGs, but Sukoi planes, that actually seem to be the best attack planes around, (I am not a military expert, but they are supposed to be pretty good)

http://ateneofm.terra.com.ve/
The station web site. It is out of order right now, but it will be up soon. You can hear it from the web.

That was my point. You said that the FARC problem was racial by nature, and I corrected you saying it was political and not racial.

The Arab League is a Empire of Darkess, I do agree there

But Israel is far from being the superhero fighting the evil guys, it is just another evil warlord that seems to have a hatred for the bigger looming evil.

Israel is the ONLY functional democracy in the Middle East, the only one. And, I have to allow some slack. When several nations that overpopulate and outgun you have stated, publicly, numerous times, that they have made it their driving goal to see you obliterated, and have attempted to do so time and again, at what point do you have to allow them some latitude to defend themselves?

Lebanon didn't attack Israel, though. It was militant groups backed by Syrian forces (the latter setting up SAM sites around the PLO bases in the Beka'a valley). That's why your argument falls flat on its face.

Operating in which nation, that took no affirmative steps to stop it?

You let terrorist organizations exist within your boarders, and allow them carte blanch to attack another nation, then you are aiding and abetting the enemy of that nation. That alone is enough.

Not MiGs, but Sukoi planes, that actually seem to be the best attack planes around, (I am not a military expert, but they are supposed to be pretty good)

http://ateneofm.terra.com.ve/
The station web site. It is out of order right now, but it will be up soon. You can hear it from the web.

Ah, right, my bad. He was just upgrading the old MiGs, I think. And looking to sell off the F-16s... :rolleyes: But yeah, the Sukhois are good, but like all Russian military hardware, you can't really count on support/parts. Also, their engines are excellent, but require a ton of maitenance to keep the jets operational.

When does your show air?

Well that's domestic member state politics you're talking about now. It never helps to get outraged, which is why we need all groups to integrate peacefully into a politically secular culture, leaving religion as far away from government as possible. Besides, getting outraged at any ethnic group makes you seem very much like the BNP or NF, which is what I would least want to do.

Operating in which nation, that took no affirmative steps to stop it?

You let terrorist organizations exist within your boarders, and allow them carte blanch to attack another nation, then you are aiding and abetting the enemy of that nation. That alone is enough.

I said I agreed that Israel has every right to deal with the situation as it is doing. I merely pointed out that your "historical" justification was faulty.

I'm not being ironic.
The problems between the FARC or the Narcos on one hand and the State on the other hand are political in nature.
The relations between Negroes in South Sudan, or Kurds in Kurdistand, or Jews in Israel on one hand and the Arab League on the other hand are racial in nature: the purpose of the Arabs is to genocide 'em out of existence.

As Nazi Germany, the Confederate States, and the Mongol Empire before it, the Arab League must be seen as a pure Empire of Darkness.

I don't think that the Confederate States ever achieved Empire status...

And though the Mongol Empire was by no means cuddly, it did have some redeeming features. Ghengis Kahn, for example, placed himself below the law (at least according to everything I've read about him) and there was freedom of religion.

So... Mongols... bunch of hard bastards utterly ruthless in war, yes.

Pure Empire of Darkness?

I said I agreed that Israel has every right to deal with the situation as it is doing. I merely pointed out that your "historical" justification was faulty.

Well, the thing is I'm not sure it's faulty....they started a conflict by allowing the PLO to operate within their borders.

They failed to end the conflict through a formal ceasefire.

Thus, the conflict never ended.

Israel is the ONLY functional democracy in the Middle East, the only one. And, I have to allow some slack. When several nations that overpopulate and outgun you have stated, publicly, numerous times, that they have made it their driving goal to see you obliterated, and have attempted to do so time and again, at what point do you have to allow them some latitude to defend themselves?

They no longer outgun you. You are the military chief over there, that's why you are taking the chance of abusing of that power.

Words are words. I have heard israelis stating that all palestinians should be erased from the map. And if it is about institutions, then go and declare war on Iran, who said that, and not Beirut, who didn't

Operating in which nation, that took no affirmative steps to stop it?

You let terrorist organizations exist within your boarders, and allow them carte blanch to attack another nation, then you are aiding and abetting the enemy of that nation. That alone is enough.

Again, Colombian case. If the colombian neighbours accept that situation and deal with it negotiating, I cannot see why you israelis cannot do the same thing

So I suppose America shoudl invade Germany then since some 9/11 terrorists lived in Frankfurt. And the UK should attack the north of England because that's where the 7/7 terrorists came from.

When does your show air?

your timezone?

So I suppose America shoudl invade Germany then since some 9/11 terrorists lived in Frankfurt. And the UK should attack the north of England because that's where the 7/7 terrorists came from.

No, those countries can handle all that.

your timezone?

GMT-5

Well, the thing is I'm not sure it's faulty....they started a conflict by allowing the PLO to operate within their borders.

They failed to end the conflict through a formal ceasefire.

Thus, the conflict never ended.

There was never a formal declaration of war, so of course there wasn't a formal bloody ceasefire.

But the Palestinians can't handle their terrorists because their government is continually being disrupted.

But the Palestinians can't handle their terrorists because their government is continually being disrupted.

And also because they support them.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?
Lebanon had a responsibility to disarm Hezbollah militias. It failed to live up to that responsibility. Hezbollah launched an attack against Israel from Lebanese territory as a result. Just like Al Qaeda launched an attack on the US from Afghanistan. The US invaded Afghanistan, why shouldn't Israel invade Lebanon?

And also because they support them.

They'd vote for anyone who promises a Palestinian state.

Israel will use any excuse to go to war. I do not agree with terrorism but Israels actions are similar to a playground bully pushing the weaker kids around because it has the backing of a much bigger guy (USA).

Lebanon had a responsibility to disarm Hezbollah militias. It failed to live up to that responsibility. Hezbollah launched an attack against Israel from Lebanese territory as a result. Just like Al Qaeda launched an attack on the US from Afghanistan. The US invaded Afghanistan, why shouldn't Israel invade Lebanon?

Sinn Fein has elected members to the Irish dail - invade now!

Look, both the Israelis and Palestinians are just as bad as each other in what they do. I just feel that as a far more developed country, Israel should at least abide by international law, and for the sake of peace in the Middle East, shouldn't stop the EU from solving the situation.

I don't think that the Confederate States ever achieved Empire status...

And though the Mongol Empire was by no means cuddly, it did have some redeeming features. Ghengis Kahn, for example, placed himself below the law (at least according to everything I've read about him) and there was freedom of religion.

So... Mongols... bunch of hard bastards utterly ruthless in war, yes.

Pure Empire of Darkness?

Yep. and that collection of arab states is just about the vilest bunch that ever lived on this planet.

Chav Man and New Burmesia are right. We can't deny these people a country of their own. The UK gave the land over to become Israel (controversially) . Israel should respect the rights of the original inhabitants to have their own country and not site their reason for owning the land as that God promised it to them, I mean come on!

They no longer outgun you. You are the military chief over there, that's why you are taking the chance of abusing of that power.

Words are words. I have heard israelis stating that all palestinians should be erased from the map. And if it is about institutions, then go and declare war on Iran, who said that, and not Beirut, who didn't



Again, Colombian case. If the colombian neighbours accept that situation and deal with it negotiating, I cannot see why you israelis cannot do the same thing

You israelis?

I'm from new york

Look, both the Israelis and Palestinians are just as bad as each other in what they do. I just feel that as a far more developed country, Israel should at least abide by international law, and for the sake of peace in the Middle East, shouldn't stop the EU from solving the situation.

Let me put it this way: the British Empar did not stop slavery by educating slavers.
We stopped that with British Hearts of Oak, and British Gallant Tars - and round shot fired by British cannon.
No mediation - but a morally clear total rejection of peace with shariatic evildoers.

Hearts of Oak are our ships
Gallant Tars are our men
We always are ready
Steady, boys steady!

Know any of their generals personally?

*grin* I'm on the Channuka list for some aluvim.

And? They tell you everything is plain sailing as you assume it to be? That there are no problems whatsoever on a card?

If yes, they've got idiots in intelligence.


I doubt that they'd care to send a card to anyone who is 'non-aligned'.

As opposed to sending a card to a swamp? If picking on my nation name is the best you can do, there's nothing to be proud of. It's pathetic.

It's the way you talk like the Arabs are attacking you personally.

Chav Man and New Burmesia are right. We can't deny these people a country of their own. The UK gave the land over to become Israel (controversially) . Israel should respect the rights of the original inhabitants to have their own country and not site their reason for owning the land as that God promised it to them, I mean come on!

Resolution 181. Palestine had a chance for their own country. They refused. Any efforts to say "we just want a country" fail to historical truth. Palestinians don't just want a Palestine. They want Israel dead.

You israelis?

I'm from new york

Then...It wasn't directed at you, then. :p

It's the way you talk like the Arabs are attacking you personally.

When did I ever say "me", "we" or "I"?

Sinn Fein has elected members to the Irish dail - invade now!
Note that I didn't criticize Hezbollah's participation in Lebanese politics, only that the Lebanese government allowed Hezbollah militants to launch attacks on Israel from Lebanese soil. Israel has every right to invade.

Chav Man and New Burmesia are right. We can't deny these people a country of their own. The UK gave the land over to become Israel (controversially) . Israel should respect the rights of the original inhabitants to have their own country and not site their reason for owning the land as that God promised it to them, I mean come on!

The terrorists can only be defeated, and Israel finally get the security it diserves, when there is an independent Palestinian state, with a capital in East Jerusalem, and borders based mainly, although not universally, on the '67 border. Until then, Palestine is a perfect breeding gound for terror.

Yep. and that collection of arab states is just about the vilest bunch that ever lived on this planet.

Don't you love how doesn't really respond to any of my points? I'm not arguing about the arab states. I'm discussing the other countries/groups/nations you labeled as 'Pure Empires of Darkness'.

snip
As opposed to sending a card to a swamp?

I am picking on your non aligned policies.
Unless you work lockstep with the western world,
your very existence is pointless,
politically speaking.


non aligned is just what it was in the days of Nehru and Tito -
a buzzword that hides anti-western loyalties.

Oh well, it's a pointless war, thousands have died and will die but if that's what they all want then sod it. If the USA stops giving military aid to Israel at least the war might become slightly "fairer".

Note that I didn't criticize Hezbollah's participation in Lebanese politics, only that the Lebanese government allowed Hezbollah militants to launch attacks on Israel from Lebanese soil. Israel has every right to invade.

Quoted for truth.

Don't you love how doesn't really respond to any of my points? I'm not arguing about the arab states. I'm discussing the other countries/groups/nations you labeled as 'Pure Empires of Darkness'.

I classify your discussion as follows:

A semantics discussion that has no relevance.
A form of hijacking.

The terrorists can only be defeated, and Israel finally get the security it diserves, when there is an independent Palestinian state, with a capital in East Jerusalem, and borders based mainly, although not universally, on the '67 border. Until then, Palestine is a perfect breeding gound for terror.
That's not what the Palestinians seem to want. They elected Hamas to government. Hamas stated objective is to wipe out Israel and take the whole nation for Palestine. So clearly terrorism won't stop by giving them a little bit of land. It won't stop until the Palestinians are made to feel subdued by Israel. When the Palestinians see that they can't destroy Israel, and any attempt to attack Israel leads to the immediate death of thousands of Palestinians and further encroachment on their "territories", they might decide to make peace and negotiate.

Quoted for truth.

I think the only difference dogmatically is that I find that past actions of aggression/failure to stop terrorist activities within their borders creates a situation in which Lebanon deserves whatever they get, until they take such proactive steps to prevent it.

I see such actions tantamount to a declaration of war, and that alone is justification for Israel to go in and remove the threat at any time they find it expediant.

Oh well, it's a pointless war, thousands have died and will die but if that's what they all want then sod it. If the USA stops giving military aid to Israel at least the war might become slightly "fairer".
War isn't supposed to be fair. It's supposed to be won by any means necessary.

War isn't supposed to be fair. It's supposed to be won by any means necessary.
....or within the laws of warfare...

The terrorists can only be defeated, and Israel finally get the security it diserves, when there is an independent Palestinian state, with a capital in East Jerusalem, and borders based mainly, although not universally, on the '67 border. Until then, Palestine is a perfect breeding gound for terror.


You're under the impression that Islamic terror in Israel is based completely on the idea that a Palestinian state will bring peace. That's completely wrong. If anything it will only bring more war, putting a terrorist state with all the perks of a sovereign nation next to Israel. Great idea.

News Flash everyone: The Arabs in Israel or as they are called by many Palestinians, have been killing Jews since before Israel was estabished. We should forget the massacre of 1929 when blood libel (blaming Jews for fictitious murderous crimes) riots broke out killing over 200 people all over the country. This isn't something new people.

And what blasts your argument even more is the fact that Israel completely pulled out of Gaza a year ago to the 1967 lines. If the Palestinians are as peace-loving as you assume, perhaps they would have taken that as a goodwill gesture from the Israelis that they can and will pull out of the territories if guarteed security. Did Israel get security? NO. It has only goten an incessant non-stop daily barrage of Qassam missiles and military incursions from the very land they JUST GAVE BACK TO THESE PEOPLE!!!

That tactic just doesn't work. If you want a war so much, just have it, and since you support it so much I hope you are gonna fight.

I think the only difference dogmatically is that I find that past actions of aggression/failure to stop terrorist activities within their borders creates a situation in which Lebanon deserves whatever they get, until they take such proactive steps to prevent it.

I see such actions tantamount to a declaration of war, and that alone is justification for Israel to go in and remove the threat at any time they find it expediant.

But it's not a declaration of war. There was no such declaration ever issued from Beirut. You can't have an implied declaration of war.

Oh well, it's a pointless war, thousands have died and will die but if that's what they all want then sod it. If the USA stops giving military aid to Israel at least the war might become slightly "fairer".


I am reminded of our boycott of Spain when it was fighting Hitler and Mussolini. That boycott was a disgrace that never should have happened.

Decent folks NEVER argue for 'fairer'.
Decent folks look for ways to maximise the hurt of the baddies,
which is to say: the Arab shari'a-freaks.

In that pointless bit of land in the sand there has always been fighting, Christian v Jew v Muslim. Bloody hell I'm normally peaceful but I'm beginning to just feel like flooding the whole damn place and being done with it.

News Flash everyone: The Arabs in Israel or as they are called by many Palestinians, have been killing Jews since before Israel was estabished. We should forget the massacre of 1929 when blood libel (blaming Jews for fictitious murderous crimes) riots broke out killing over 200 people all over the country. This isn't something new people.

Sorry, what's your point with this? Pogroms against the Jews have occured throughout history- from Roman times to medievel Europe and 19th/early 20th Russia (World War 2 thing too I suppose).

You're right. It isn't something new, nor is it solely on the hands of the regions Arab population.

I classify your discussion as follows:

No. This is entirely on topic. You defined the Arab States as a 'pure Empire of Darkness' and gave several examples of other such empires. Those examples are the only thing we have to go on as to what defines a 'pure Empire of Darkness' therefore, discussing whether they are or are not 'pure Empires of Darkness' determines the definition of 'pure Empire of Darkness' and as such, determines whether your inclusion of the Arab States in this group is or is not correct.

Answer the question please, or admit you cannot.

That's not what the Palestinians seem to want. They elected Hamas to government. Hamas stated objective is to wipe out Israel and take the whole nation for Palestine. So clearly terrorism won't stop by giving them a little bit of land. It won't stop until the Palestinians are made to feel subdued by Israel. When the Palestinians see that they can't destroy Israel, and any attempt to attack Israel leads to the immediate death of thousands of Palestinians and further encroachment on their "territories", they might decide to make peace and negotiate.

Sad but true. When you deal with a group that has made it their stated goal to destroy you, peaceful coexistance is impossible, and only three options remain. They succeed in wiping you out, you live with the unending violence, or you show them that continuing such violence will be severely counter to their own interest.

As I have said before, what Israel should do is basically this. Say "ok, we're giving you palestine" and withdraw from the west bank, entirely. Take every israeli out. Destroy every school, hospital, sewer system, power plants, water plants. Every single thing that Palestine could use to any benefit. Level then land entirely and then go "here it is, here's your palestine, as desolute as Israel as when we got here, have fun!" Then surround their boarders and let them have what they claim they want.

And when the violence continues, and the lie of "we just want some of our own land" is exposed in the next terrorist attack, Israel drops the cold dead bodies of the would be terrorists on the doors of their families, invades, and takes it all back, having exposed the lie that Hamas is interested in any meeting of the minds that does not involve the destruction of Israel

There is no goodie or baddie in real life for goodness sake, that's just in bloody children's movies

In that pointless bit of land in the sand there has always been fighting, Christian v Jew v Muslim. Bloody hell I'm normally peaceful but I'm beginning to just feel like flooding the whole damn place and being done with it.

There's always my "fused glass" alternative. Hellooooooooo, parking lot for Europe! :p

Yay, we need more car parking spaces.

No. This is entirely on topic. You defined the Arab States as a 'pure Empire of Darkness' and gave several examples of other such empires. Those examples are the only thing we have to go on as to what defines a 'pure Empire of Darkness' therefore, discussing whether they are or are not 'pure Empires of Darkness' determines the definition of 'pure Empire of Darkness' and as such, determines whether your inclusion of the Arab States in this group is or is not correct.

Answer the question please, or admit you cannot.

More semantics. Make a new thread.

The only thing that I will confess to is at follows:

Thou shalt not suffer Sahri'a to exist!

Bloosy Hell. Now you're talking like God. More religious fundamentalists!

There is no goodie or baddie in real life for goodness sake, that's just in bloody children's movies

You haven't seen enough real life, I take it.

Thou shalt not suffer Sahri'a to exist!
Whats that got to do with the Palestinians by the way?

Bar Hamas, nearly every Palestinian group fighting against Israel was Marxist.

Whats that got to do with the Palestinians by the way?

Bar Hamas, nearly every Palestinian group fighting against Israel was Marxist.

Only nominally, to get support from the Soviets.

Sorry, what's your point with this? Pogroms against the Jews have occured throughout history- from Roman times to medievel Europe and 19th/early 20th Russia (World War 2 thing too I suppose).

You're right. It isn't something new, nor is it solely on the hands of the regions Arab population.


Entirely correct, Jews have always been pushed around and murdered. Hell, you might as well consider Israel as the worlds Jew. They are held to impossibly high moral standards, more than anyone else, and are constantly condemned for taking action in defense of its people.

I was making the point that Palestinian terrorism does not have its roots in Palestinian nationalism or the goal of achieving a Palestinian state. That has never been something they have wanted. (coulda had it in 48 and many other times..the PLO was founded in '64...three prior to the 6 Day war) So what I'm saying is that this hatred of Israel is simply hatred of Jews on what they call Muslim land...period.

The leader of the Arab Muslims living in Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel was the Grand Mufti Haj-Amin Al Husseini...Hitlers old boy (spent most of the war in Berlin) and a good friend of Mussolini who had planned on setting up gas chambers in Palestine after Rommel finished with North Africa. The hatred of Jews and Israel is deeply rooted in the ends of Nazism and of wiping out Jews, not furthering the creation of a Palestinian state.

More semantics. Make a new thread.

The only thing that I will confess to is at follows:

Thou shalt not suffer Sahri'a to exist!

There's no need to make a new thread to challenge your definition. If you don't feel like debating your examples, give us the criteria needed to be called a 'pure Empire of Darkness'.

More semantics. Make a new thread.

The only thing that I will confess to is at follows:

Thou shalt not suffer Sahri'a to exist!

There is no Arab state with Sharia law. And if they really wanted it, what's it to do with you and me, and what has it to do with semantics?

Only nominally, to get support from the Soviets.
Maybe, but the certainly weren't Islamist. The founders of the PFLP and the various splinters were Christian! :eek:

Using a term and not defining that term or supporting it's applicability = bad form, BogMarsh.

You called some states 'pure Empires of Darkness' as part of your explanation for the term, and people are calling you on it and thus revealing gaps and errors in your definition. Seems pretty straight forward and on topic to me, especially since you're applying the term towards what this topic is about.

Entirely correct, Jews have always been pushed around and murdered. Hell, you might as well consider Israel as the worlds Jew. They are held to impossibly high moral standards, more than anyone else, and are constantly condemned for taking action in defense of its people.
No they are held to the same moral standards of any Western state. They claim to be one, so thats why they are held to that standard.


I was making the point that Palestinian terrorism does not have its roots in Palestinian nationalism or the goal of achieving a Palestinian state. That has never been something they have wanted. (coulda had it in 48 and many other times..the PLO was founded in '64...three prior to the 6 Day war) So what I'm saying is that this hatred of Israel is simply hatred of Jews on what they call Muslim land...period.

As I said earlier, most of the Palestinian groups were not founded on Islamic principles. Most were Marxist. Do not confuse the popularity of Hamas today, with the origins.

The leader of the Arab Muslims living in Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel was the Grand Mufti Haj-Amin Al Husseini...Hitlers old boy (spent most of the war in Berlin) and a good friend of Mussolini who had planned on setting up gas chambers in Palestine after Rommel finished with North Africa. The hatred of Jews and Israel is deeply rooted in the ends of Nazism and of wiping out Jews, not furthering the creation of a Palestinian state.
Yeah, Churchill was a great fan of Mussolini too. So fucking what?

Maybe, but the certainly weren't Islamist. The founders of the PFLP and the various splinters were Christian! :eek:

True, but the fact is, a lot of the so-called socialist/communist/Marxist terrorist groups that sprung up 1950s-70s merely claimed such an ideology to get backing from the USSR, as most of them were formed to go up against governments backed by the West.

israel should be removed from the planet.

think about it. if the west helped the middle east to remove israel it might help some sort of peace process. if the jews want a country of there own, they should move to america. thats a jewish controled country. they just use the christian fundalmentalist as front men, like bush. hes just a pupet for his jewish masters.

....or within the laws of warfare...
Yeah, when the world is watching. Otherwise, by any means necessary.

There's no need to make a new thread to challenge your definition. If you don't feel like debating your examples, give us the criteria needed to be called a 'pure Empire of Darkness'.


I no more debate an example than a Parson debates a parable from the Bible.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?

they have these things called vehicles and legs. some walk over (ussually not the entire distance but had some help with vehicles) and some used a vehicle to get over.

thats the great thing about israel. If isreal care what other countries thought about it, then it wouldnt be israel.

I love Israel and the Israeli millitary. this is what should have been done in the first place and Israel should of been allowed to do it right the fist time.

I have to say I agree with Gorias. Now we just need a mass evacuation and a huge flood.

israel should be removed from the planet.

think about it. if the west helped the middle east to remove israel it might help some sort of peace process. if the jews want a country of there own, they should move to america. thats a jewish controled country. they just use the christian fundalmentalist as front men, like bush. hes just a pupet for his jewish masters.

Just as Palestine has a right to exist, so does Israel. Period.

By the way it is 'should have', not 'should of'

Yeah, when the world is watching. Otherwise, by any means necessary.
When is the world not watching exactly (post Cold War...... and not in Africa)


True, but the fact is, a lot of the so-called socialist/communist/Marxist terrorist groups that sprung up 1950s-70s merely claimed such an ideology to get backing from the USSR, as most of them were formed to go up against governments backed by the West.


Oh I agree, but I'm just saying its wrong to label all Palestinian groups as 'Islamist' or pushing that agenda.

israel should be removed from the planet.

think about it. if the west helped the middle east to remove israel it might help some sort of peace process. if the jews want a country of there own, they should move to america. thats a jewish controled country. they just use the christian fundalmentalist as front men, like bush. hes just a pupet for his jewish masters.

http://www.p0stwh0res.com/images/birgittroll01.gif

We don't mean destroy Israel, we mean move it, the land is obviously cursed or something.

Oh I agree, but I'm just saying its wrong to label all Palestinian groups as 'Islamist' or pushing that agenda.

No, but they are all about eradicating Jews. Hmmm...sounds familiar...

israel should be removed from the planet.

think about it. if the west helped the middle east to remove israel it might help some sort of peace process. if the jews want a country of there own, they should move to america. thats a jewish controled country. they just use the christian fundalmentalist as front men, like bush. hes just a pupet for his jewish masters.

Wow...you're really fucking nuts, huh? That's right, Bush is a puppet for his jewish, and thus traditionally democrat, masters...

I no more debate an example than a Parson debates a parable from the Bible.

Okay, so what your saying is, you now have the right to label a country, without giving any criteria for the label, and without leaving the label open for debate?

Fine. America is now a fascist pig corporate controlled baby eating anarchy.

israel should be removed from the planet.

think about it. if the west helped the middle east to remove israel it might help some sort of peace process. if the jews want a country of there own, they should move to america. thats a jewish controled country. they just use the christian fundalmentalist as front men, like bush. hes just a pupet for his jewish masters.
So you've bought the lie that the Arabs area only angry because of Israel. Sacrifice Israel and there will be peace. What happens when they want the the Iberian peninsula back? Bin Laden has already mentioned the shameful reconquest of al andalus (Andalusia) by Christian Europeans in his speeches. Are you willing to sacrifice Spain and Portugal too?

Well it is odd - the huge support by the US government for all of Israel's wars

http://www.p0stwh0res.com/images/birgittroll01.gif

I prefer:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/agedhippy/images/DoNotFeedTroll.gif

Well it is odd - the huge support by the US government for all of Israel's wars

Free democracies traditionally support other free democracies in battles against theocratic dictatorships.

I prefer:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/agedhippy/images/DoNotFeedTroll.gif

I just like the nosepicking. ;)

Free democracies traditionally support other free democracies in battles against theocratic dictatorships.

Which theocratic dictatorship? Israel hasn't invaded any theocratic dictatorships.

Which theocratic dictatorship? Israel hasn't invaded any theocratic dictatorships.

Not dictatorships in name, no...

Exactly. Who is the dictator?

Which theocratic dictatorship? Israel hasn't invaded any theocratic dictatorships.

No...but Iran's been lookin at em funny. And I consider the PLO to be pretty much theocratic, and if not a dictatorship, extraordinarily socially fascist.

Israil is a nation foundered of terroism. the isralis deserve what they get.. as for this it is an invation. i hope the surrounding countrys put isralil in its place.. but i highly doubt they will.

I no more debate an example than a Parson debates a parable from the Bible.
... you don't give support what you say, and expect us to take it on faith. Check.

Exactly. Who is the dictator?
any arab leader?

Israil is a nation foundered of terroism. the isralis deserve what they get.. as for this it is an invation. i hope the surrounding countrys put isralil in its place.. but i highly doubt they will.

I'm sure you do, based on your user name. Oh, and by the way, you spelled "Reich" incorrectly, genius. :rolleyes:

Israil is a nation foundered of terroism. the isralis deserve what they get.. as for this it is an invation. i hope the surrounding countrys put isralil in its place.. but i highly doubt they will.
Shouldn't you be off masturbating to Mein Kampf or something?

No...but Iran's been lookin at em funny. And I consider the PLO to be pretty much theocratic, and if not a dictatorship, extraordinarily socially fascist.

PLO is secular, as well as is the state they proclaimed in the eighties. Quite the opposite of what you claim. Hamas and Iran, on the other hand...

Israil is a nation foundered of terroism. the isralis deserve what they get.. as for this it is an invation. i hope the surrounding countrys put isralil in its place.. but i highly doubt they will.

How surprising given a name like "Riech". Israel was founded because Britain, that owned the land, gave it to them. It was British land, britain can do whatever the fark they chose to. They chose to help form Israel.

You fail, try again.

any arab leader?

Now, now...can't generalise like that...

In a civilised country like I live in that would probably be considered totally racist.

Israil is a nation foundered of terroism. the isralis deserve what they get.. as for this it is an invation. i hope the surrounding countrys put isralil in its place.. but i highly doubt they will.

Where was that troll sign?

Nope.
I am saying that WE, Europeans, must refuse to have any form of contact-other-than-by-automatic-armsfire with the Palestinians.

So your answer to genocide is...with more genocide.

PLO is secular, as well as is the state they proclaimed in the eighties. Quite the opposite of what you claim. Hamas and Iran, on the other hand...

*grumbles* teaches me to type faster than I think. you are quite right, PLO is...well...somewhat secular but to claim they are not motivated by a degree of radical Islam is...untrue I think.

I did actually mean Hamas, it just sounded like PLO.

Where was that troll sign?

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/agedhippy/images/DoNotFeedTroll.gif

It's a fact that Iran is one of the two state sponsors of Hezbollah, the terrorist organization that caused the current problems in Lebanon. Could they be operating under Iranian orders to destabilize the region around Israel in order to raise more anger at Israel in the region and set the stage for Iran's stated goal of wiping Israel off the map?

Now, now...can't generalise like that...
well, tell me one name of arab democratic country.
as for the religion part, most of them based their laws on the religion, and therefore theocratic.

Where was that troll sign?

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/agedhippy/images/DoNotFeedTroll.gif

I aim to please, bonita. ;)

well, tell me one name of arab democratic country.
as for the religion part, most of them based their laws on the religion, and therefore theocratic.

If the people choose their laws to be based on religion, that's democracy. I questioned the dictatorship part of your statement.

It's a fact that Iran is one of the two state sponsors of Hezbollah, the terrorist organization that caused the current problems in Lebanon. Could they be operating under Iranian orders to destabilize the region around Israel in order to raise more anger at Israel in the region and set the stage for Iran's stated goal of wiping Israel off the map?
iran supported the Hamas also.
they state their goal, but they won't wipe us for the map so easily.

You can't judge a country by democracy anyway. I mean the pirates were democracies at a time when all the kingdoms were not, but we don't praise the pirates do we.

*grumbles* teaches me to type faster than I think. you are quite right, PLO is...well...somewhat secular but to claim they are not motivated by a degree of radical Islam is...untrue I think.

I did actually mean Hamas, it just sounded like PLO.

I would say that the PLO is more motivated by Arab nationalism than radical Islam, although undoubtedly there may be some more radical fringe groups that participate in the PLO. And vice versa with Hamas.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/agedhippy/images/DoNotFeedTroll.gif

I aim to please, bonita. ;)

Aim it at Green Israel too, please

If the people choose their laws to be based on religion, that's democracy. I questioned the dictatorship part of your statement.
tell me one arab state which let her populace choose this laws and leaders, and I drop off the dictatorship part.

tell me one arab state which let her populace choose this laws and leaders, and I drop off the dictatorship part.

Afghanistan. :p

Aim it at Green Israel too, please
claim who?

Afghanistan. :p

Iraq, too

What about Egypt?

Afghanistan. :p

WITHOUT the need for western military intervention :p

claim who?
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/agedhippy/images/DoNotFeedTroll.gif

As you wish, Aelosia. ;)

claim who?

I do. Your generalizations are trolling.

I did find the "Riech" guy a troll, but you are not exactly proving to be higher in my scale

well, tell me one name of arab democratic country.
as for the religion part, most of them based their laws on the religion, and therefore theocratic.

Israel has religious functions attached to the state (linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Israel#Religious_courts)). Most western marriage laws are based on religion. Blasphemy is still illegal, although unenforced, in the UK with a state religion given seatrs in Parliament. Are all these theocracies?

Iraq, too

What about Egypt?

Egypt? Nah. Their "democracy" is pretty much a front. I'll throw out Indonesia, though.

Afghanistan. :p
come on, it had much sense as take iraq or the PLO.
you can't really choose something while gunman walk on the street and shot people with other opinions.

Afghanistan. :p
Afghanis aren't Arabs. Arabs comprised the Al Qaeda foreign legion that allied itself witht he Afghan Taliban government.

Egypt? Nah. Their "democracy" is pretty much a front. I'll throw out Indonesia, though.

As front as Russia, I would daresay. Democracy nevertheless...Mexico was even worst under the PRI, but at least it is a democracy.. Biased, taken, but democracy

Afghanis aren't Arabs. Arabs comprised the Al Qaeda foreign legion that allied itself witht he Afghan Taliban government.

Good point, actually.

I do. Your generalizations are trolling.

I did find the "Riech" guy a troll, but you are not exactly proving to be higher in my scale
somebody said they are democracies. I failed to see how they match the criteria. it isn't like I said they should be wipe out based on that, because most of the world is dictatorships and oppresfull regimes. this is reality.

As front as Russia, I would daresay. Democracy nevertheless...Mexico was even worst under the PRI, but at least it is a democracy.. Biased, taken, but democracy

Nah, you can't just up and pretend to be a democracy. By that standard, the DPRK is a democracy.

well, tell me one name of arab democratic country.
as for the religion part, most of them based their laws on the religion, and therefore theocratic.

what about lebanon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Lebanon

And they do not appear to be mostly muslim either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_government_of_July_2005

Israel has religious functions attached to the state (linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Israel#Religious_courts)). Most western marriage laws are based on religion. Blasphemy is still illegal, although unenforced, in the UK with a state religion given seatrs in Parliament. Are all these theocracies?
I may prefer less religious laws in israel, but we aren't enforced this laws on everybody as iran or saudia.

what about lebanon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Lebanon

And they do not appear to be mostly muslim either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_government_of_July_2005

No, Lebanon's always been a majority-Christian nation.

Shouldn't you be off masturbating to Mein Kampf or something?

heres a crude rasist way to look at it, if the americans and brits had of left the germans alone during ww2 then we wouldent have this problem now. there a nice simple take on it.

oh yeah let the moronic flame wars being!!

i'm gona enjoy this

somebody said they are democracies. I failed to see how they match the criteria. it isn't like I said they should be wipe out based on that, because most of the world is dictatorships and oppresfull regimes. this is reality.

And I told you that not all are dictatorships, and I'll add now that you should check the approval rates of several regimes, like in Jordan, or in Qatar.

what about lebanon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Lebanon

And they do not appear to be mostly muslim either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_government_of_July_2005
hizbulla terror organization rule their, as pro-syrian gunmen who stayed there afterthey pullout. as much as I know they even had no full autonomy from syria, but I agree they are one of the most liberal arab nation (much by their large minority of christians).

heres a crude rasist way to look at it, if the americans and brits had of left the germans alone during ww2 then we wouldent have this problem now. there a nice simple take on it.

oh yeah let the moronic flame wars being!!

i'm gona enjoy this

I was really hoping you'd say something like this, you worthless troll. Enjoy your ban, which I'm sure will be forthcoming.

heres a crude rasist way to look at it, if the americans and brits had of left the germans alone during ww2 then we wouldent have this problem now. there a nice simple take on it.

oh yeah let the moronic flame wars being!!

i'm gona enjoy this

As you like nazis...Can I go all grammar intolerant with you?

I am picking on your non aligned policies.
Unless you work lockstep with the western world,
your very existence is pointless,
politically speaking.

Rubbish. Strategic resources and locations will always make sure your existence means something even if you don't goosestep like an obedient slave to the western world. If you think otherwise, look at Venezuala and Iran. Neither are Western puppets, but have resources that make them important players on the world stage.

You've got more nationalism than sense.


non aligned is just what it was in the days of Nehru and Tito -
a buzzword that hides anti-western loyalties.

For your information, I come from a place that considered itself non aligned during the heydays of the red scare, when countries where pressured to join either the Soviet Bloc or NATO and all the misery that accompanied being gang raped by either one as they attempted to destabilize your government, bomb the crap out of it, invade it or strangle it with sanctions.

My home country, along with those in the region, all joined up and said to both of them "Bugger off". In case you hadn't noticed, we're still here.

If being independent from the control of others means being anti-western, then take your western loyalties and stick them up yours. We don't want your Stalinist anti-democratic holier than thou attitudes.

If you think you can scare me with anti-western loyalty accusations little man, you've got another think coming up.

And I told you that not all are dictatorships, and I'll add now that you should check the approval rates of several regimes, like in Jordan, or in Qatar.

Not sure I'd put either of them out there as models of democracy, though...

Jordan seems to be a constitutional monarchy
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_jordan)

As you like nazis...Can I go all grammar intolerant with you?

And this from one who speaks English as a second language. You rock, Aelosia! :D

come on, it had much sense as take iraq or the PLO.
you can't really choose something while gunman walk on the street and shot people with other opinions.

They did. They chose Hamas, not Fatah, the dominant PLO group.

Jordan seems to be a constitutional monarchy
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_jordan)

Right, with the monarchy actually wielding real power, unlike, say, oh...the UK, which is a democracy.

No, Lebanon's always been a majority-Christian nation.


wait.. are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?:confused:

Green isreal said:
Originally Posted by Green israel
well, tell me one name of arab democratic country.
as for the religion part, most of them based their laws on the religion, and therefore theocratic.

Jordan seems to be a constitutional monarchy
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_jordan)

It is.

And well, they haven't got any elections, perhaps because even the people supports their system and like to preserve it that way. That's enough freedom as I see it, political freedom, no need to westernalize something that people still wants to be orientalized.

hizbulla terror organization rule their, as pro-syrian gunmen who stayed there afterthey pullout. as much as I know they even had no full autonomy from syria, but I agree they are one of the most liberal arab nation (much by their large minority of christians).

As you said:
:
Originally Posted by Green israel
well, tell me one name of arab democratic country.
as for the religion part, most of them based their laws on the religion, and therefore theocratic.

they are arab and they are democratic.

lol, fun fun, cant say its not true, and i think i make a valid point! no israel no problem,

either way we are not changing anyones minds. should have called my country the 666th anti religous reich, or brainwashed my people and called it america

And I told you that not all are dictatorships, and I'll add now that you should check the approval rates of several regimes, like in Jordan, or in Qatar.
I think that qatar are also un-democratic.
as for the friendly jordans, they had huge majority of palastinians which had no civil rights and worse situation than the palastinians in the PLO (not to mention the israeli arabs which get rights on them they could only dream in any arab regime. (their leaders moslty over-use that)).

btw, the approval rate of saddam hussein never dropped of 95%, just like syria and other arab states. what your point was?

As you said:


they are arab and they are democratic.
I fail to say HOW they democratic.

I think that qatar are also un-democratic.
as for the friendly jordans, they had huge majority of palastinians which had no civil rights and worse situation than the palastinians in the PLO (not to mention the israeli arabs which get rights on them they could only dream in any arab regime. (their leaders moslty over-use that)).

btw, the approval rate of saddam hussein never dropped of 95%, just like syria and other arab states. what your point was?

Saddam reports were highly biased, I think, as they didn't include the kurds and other circles. Jordan ones seem to be more correct.

And if an arab can live in perfect conditions in Israel...Then why they just don't migrate there in masse Rio Grande style?

wait.. are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?:confused:



I was agreeing with you.

lol, fun fun, cant say its not true, and i think i make a valid point! no israel no problem,

either way we are not changing anyones minds. should have called my country the 666th anti religous reich, or brainwashed my people and called it america

Just go the fuck away already.

Right, with the monarchy actually wielding real power, unlike, say, oh...the UK, which is a democracy.

True (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_jordan#Political_parties_and_elections) but only because that was who the people VOTED for..

They did. They chose Hamas, not Fatah, the dominant PLO group.
and then they solve their discussions by shoting each other. great democracy.

I think that qatar are also un-democratic.
as for the friendly jordans, they had huge majority of palastinians which had no civil rights and worse situation than the palastinians in the PLO (not to mention the israeli arabs which get rights on them they could only dream in any arab regime. (their leaders moslty over-use that)).

btw, the approval rate of saddam hussein never dropped of 95%, just like syria and other arab states. what your point was?

Heh...friendly Jordanians...

The Jordanians were asked to accept the Palestinians when Israel was formed. The Jordanians refused.

It is.

And well, they haven't got any elections, perhaps because even the people supports their system and like to preserve it that way. That's enough freedom as I see it, political freedom, no need to westernalize something that people still wants to be orientalized.

they held elections in 2003

True (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_jordan#Political_parties_and_elections) but only because that was who the people VOTED for..

And they had real alternatives?

Just go the fuck away already.

lol, with pleasure;) have a fun debate:D

I fail to say HOW they democratic.

Did you look at the links?

What is a democracy to you then?

Saddam reports were highly biased, I think, as they didn't include the kurds and other circles. Jordan ones seem to be more correct.he didn't include the curds, jordan didn't include the palastinians. what the big difference?

And if an arab can live in perfect conditions in Israel...Then why they just don't migrate there in masse Rio Grande style?
biased brain-washing in the media and the mosques.
and it isn't like israel is willing to open her borders for arab immigrants, you know.

and then they solve their discussions by shoting each other. great democracy.

You said the PLO shoots people who disagree with them and form a dictatorship. However, the Palestinian people voted in a completely new government. How is that undemocratic? While it may not be perfect, considering the area is under military occupation with checkpoints etc, people changed their government. And what is more democratic than changing your government?

lol, with pleasure;) have a fun debate:D

I would like to apologise to the other posters here for my rude post that sent this clown off, but it did serve its purpose (I hope).

Dont get involved in things you dont understand and just watch on the news.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?
Somehow, I don't think Israel is overly concerned about whether Lebanon is going to get upset. :)

You said the PLO shoots people who disagree with them and form a dictatorship. However, the Palestinian people voted in a completely new government. How is that undemocratic? While it may not be perfect, considering the area is under military occupation with checkpoints etc, people changed their government. And what is more democratic than changing your government?

You can't have a real democracy when opposing parties are shooting at each other.

Dont get involved in things you dont understand and just watch on the news.

Heaven forbid anyone should have an opinion on anything that happens in the world! All of you, go home and do what the government tells you! This doesn't involve you!

And they had real alternatives?

no not really (IMO), i personally don't like religious parties.

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Jordan)

but 10% voted for a party that was not allied with the king. the rest were allied in one way or another.

But then again, labour, tories and the lib-dems (the british parties) are allied with the royal family in england as well....

You said the PLO shoots people who disagree with them and form a dictatorship. However, the Palestinian people voted in a completely new government. How is that undemocratic? While it may not be perfect, considering the area is under military occupation with checkpoints etc, people changed their government. And what is more democratic than changing your government?
fatach kidnapped hammas candidates and otherwise. fatach lead gunmen to the parlamient after they loose, and civil war was close.
each party as his own army which shot eachother while they have disagreements.
it maybe had elections, but it isn't democracy.