NationStates Jolt Archive

no not really (IMO), i personally don't like religious parties.

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Jordan)

but 10% voted for a party that was not allied with the king. the rest were allied in one way or another.

But then again, labour, tories and the lib-dems (the british parties) are allied with the royal family in england as well....
you know that in jordan, the king had power over the parlamient, right?

this all discution is taboe.
First define it,then define agression.
If i remember there is a war going on.
And it won't last a bit.
What is war?

Isreal has every right to use as much force as it takes to beat these terrorist into submission and to make any regional gov't that supports them quit supporting them.

You can't have a real democracy when opposing parties are shooting at each other.

It's not good, but the people can still change their government. However, I thought that most of the Fatah-Hamas clashes had stopped recently, pending agreement to the Prisoners' Document.

But I've been without the internet for awhile, so don't quote me on this.

It's on CNN; apparently, Israeli troops have moved into southern Lebanon to hunt Hezbollah. But, isn't that just... invasion? Won't Lebanon be mad?

Hezbullah committed an act of war. We all know where they do their idiotic work from. Syria and Lebanon. Good on Israel for doing the right thing. Keep it up Israel.

It's not good, but the people can still change their government. However, I thought that most of the Fatah-Hamas clashes had stopped recently, pending agreement to the Prisoners' Document.

But I've been without the internet for awhile, so don't quote me on this.

Recently, sure, but not when the elections were coming up. Intimidation with guns is no democracy.

fatach kidnapped hammas candidates and otherwise. fatach lead gunmen to the parlamient after they loose, and civil war was close.
each party as his own army which shot eachother while they have disagreements.
it maybe had elections, but it isn't democracy.

Fatah then admitted defeat. I never claimed that the PA was perfect, however considering the fact that the PA is partially ruling an occupied territory, it does relatively well.

you know that in jordan, the king had power over the parlamient, right?

noticed i did say constitutional monarchy, right?

Recently, sure, but not when the elections were coming up. Intimidation with guns is no democracy.

Like I said in my previous post, it's far from perfect. However, the people can remove an unsatisfactory government. It's quite different to North Korea or Syria, where that is denied.

and again green israel, how is lebannon not a democracy?

Isreal has every right to use as much force as it takes to beat these terrorist into submission and to make any regional gov't that supports them quit supporting them.

yeah that approch has worked in the past look at iraq and afghanistan, oh wait remind me that was weapons on mass destruction (oil) and what is there in afghanistan?? opium i guess. either way in iraq the wars been over for 3 years now officially? yet 100's of people are being killed weekly


oh wait i just read you name it.. texas, i wouldent expect any less from someone with texas in their name

Like I said in my previous post, it's far from perfect. However, the people can remove an unsatisfactory government. It's quite different to North Korea or Syria, where that is denied.

Doesn't make it a real democracy.

yeah that approch has worked in the past look at iraq and afghanistan, oh wait remind me that was weapons on mass destruction (oil) and what is there in afghanistan?? opium i guess. either way in iraq the wars been over for 3 years now officially? yet 100's of people are being killed weekly

I thought you were leaving, troll...

Did anyone read the article? Israel is going in because they were raided from Lebanon and two soldiers were kidnapped. The first act... came from Lebanon, so Israel didn't start it.

That is indeed correct but those who hate Israel will take this opportunity and blame Israel and I see that it has already started based on other posts I have read.

Wake up people. Israel is clearly defending themselves from the terrorists and those who support them.

Show no Mercy Israel.

I thought you were leaving, troll...
I've just been ignoring the fucker. You should try it.

he didn't include the curds, jordan didn't include the palastinians. what the big difference?.

The palestinians weren't living more than a few years there. Hardly "what a citizen think" poll could include them

biased brain-washing in the media and the mosques.
and it isn't like israel is willing to open her borders for arab immigrants, you know.

Bah, why shouldn't they?, are they going to discriminate inmigrants based on religion or what?

Did you look at the links?

What is a democracy to you then?
there is 2 kind of democracies:formal and real.
formal democracies had elections for a while and the populace can chose their candidates. thet what arab regimes had at best (although I think they aren't because their parlameints are mostly thoothless).
in real democracy, there are rights as the right of speach and protest, civil agreement to solve disagreements without violence, care for all civil rights and human rights (fair justice, security, property, freedom, fairness and dignity), and pluralism.
the nature of the real democracies may change from countrey to countrey but the main right should be stay as long as they aren't over-harm other important right (in that case the solution should harm any of those right as less as possible).

I think that arab regimes fail to be that kind of democracies.

i quiet enjoy reading your narrow minded responses, but i should be off its 2am here in brisbane

I've just been ignoring the fucker. You should try it.


opps looks like that plan backfired

bridges, airports, harbors, electricity centrals, any infrastructure, are destroyed, confiscated or blockaded by israel on a regular basis.

Palestina has an airport, and a harbor, a lot of the money went into it, to stimulate economy, but israel does not allow planes to land or ships to dock. This was small news several years ago, since palestinian diplomats have to go through israeli airports and checkpoints... there was some kind of outrage on how an ambassador was treated i think

Under INternational law, if something is used for military purposes, it can be legally destroyed. That includes all that you have listed above. The terrorists were using it to further their own selfish goals and thus made them a target for the IDF. The IDF is clearly following the rules of war by denying them the use of such things.

and then they solve their discussions by shoting each other. great democracy.

does anyone else see the irony in this?

2 soldiers are kidnapped (hope they are ok) so a democratic israel invades another country. and kills a bunch of innocents

noticed i did say constitutional monarchy, right?
still the palastinians had no civil right, so I think they failed to be that either.

I've just been ignoring the fucker. You should try it.

Meh, I enjoy chasing them off. ;)

does anyone else see the irony in this?

2 soldiers are kidnapped (hope they are ok) so a democratic israel invades another country. and kills a bunch of innocents

Maybe the people who did the kidnapping should understand that kidnapping comes with violent consequences.

Meh, I enjoy chasing them off. ;)
Ok, enjoy teasing the troll.

Holy Shit, CNN international confirms Israel moves into southern lebanon. And 7 Israelis dead, 2 captured. Looks like we may have another regional war brewing.

The palestinians weren't living more than a few years there. Hardly "what a citizen think" poll could include themyou mean more than half of the centaury. from the time they become refugees.



Bah, why shouldn't they?, are they going to discriminate inmigrants based on religion or what?all the security part. and the fact that israel is the only jewish country and therefore want to maintain the jewish majority.

all the security part. and the fact that israel is the only jewish country and therefore want to maintain the jewish majority.


The reason I don't like Israel, despite my defense of its current actions.

Holy Shit, CNN international confirms Israel moves into southern lebanon. And 7 Israelis dead, 2 captured. Looks like we may have another regional war brewing.


Sad, and Israel's responsibility.

Israel has no business in the Gaza strip, if it wanted its pow back it should have taken hostages - like it did with PA government figures - and negotiated a trade. Collective punishment is unacceptable. Bombing palestinian infrastructure and homes is unacceptable.

The Israeli government doesnt seem to understand that one day it is going to learn a hard lesson the hard way.

Holy Shit, CNN international confirms Israel moves into southern lebanon. And 7 Israelis dead, 2 captured. Looks like we may have another regional war brewing.
I hate to be the one to ruin all your childhood delusions, but that "war" has been ongoing for generations now. This is just another round.

you mean more than half of the centaury. from the time they become refugees.

They are still refugees. I am pretty sure that if you ask them, they will say they are no jordans. What is the point in asking them, then?


all the security part. and the fact that israel is the only jewish country and therefore want to maintain the jewish majority.

Whoah, enough for the "theocracy" issue, don't you think?

Plus, arabs that want to be israeli citizens can't be that bad, no?

Sad, and Israel's responsibility.

Israel has no business in the Gaza strip, if it wanted its pow back it should have taken hostages - like it did with PA government figures - and negotiated a trade. Collective punishment is unacceptable. Bombing palestinian infrastructure and homes is unacceptable.

The Israeli government doesnt seem to understand that one day it is going to learn a hard lesson the hard way.
I couldnt agree more

The reason I don't like Israel, despite my defense of its current actions.
unlike portugal and japan, who do the exactly same thing and go furthere?

The reason I don't like Israel, despite my defense of its current actions.
Do you have a problem with the Vatican as well?

Plus, arabs that want to be israeli citizens can't be that bad, no?

Absolutely not. Israel needs to get over the idea of being a Jewish state and accept everyone, regardless of religion.

Do you have a problem with the Vatican as well?

Vatican City is a faux state.

Sad, and Israel's responsibility.

Israel has no business in the Gaza strip, if it wanted its pow back it should have taken hostages - like it did with PA government figures - and negotiated a trade. Collective punishment is unacceptable. Bombing palestinian infrastructure and homes is unacceptable.

The Israeli government doesnt seem to understand that one day it is going to learn a hard lesson the hard way.
The Palestinians wanted some 1,500 terrorists released from Israeli jails in return for the one Israeli soldier they held. Although that seems like an "equal" trade at first blush, releasing that many terrorists would only exacerbate the entire situation in the Middle East. I'm glad Isreal took another option.

But the Palestinians can't handle their terrorists because their government is continually being disrupted.

Are you insane or just incapable of knowing that the Palestinian government is controlled by a bunch of terrorists?

Sad, and Israel's responsibility.

Israel has no business in the Gaza strip, if it wanted its pow back it should have taken hostages - like it did with PA government figures - and negotiated a trade. Collective punishment is unacceptable. Bombing palestinian infrastructure and homes is unacceptable.

The Israeli government doesnt seem to understand that one day it is going to learn a hard lesson the hard way.
Israel's goal is not to have to get hostages back every time some Palestinian asshole wants to spring his murdering terrorist pal out of Israeli prison. It's goal is to end Palestinian hostage taking, suicide bombing, and rocket attacks.

Absolutely not. Israel needs to get over the idea of being a Jewish state and accept everyone, regardless of religion.
Why? Would you offer the same option to say, Iran?

Look, both the Israelis and Palestinians are just as bad as each other in what they do. I just feel that as a far more developed country, Israel should at least abide by international law, and for the sake of peace in the Middle East, shouldn't stop the EU from solving the situation.

Actually...they are abiding by it.

Maybe the people who did the kidnapping should understand that kidnapping comes with violent consequences.

wow. just wow.

what about the innocent dead, what did they learn?

Why? Would you offer the same option to say, Iran?

Iran should do the same.

wow. just wow.

what about the innocent dead, what did they learn?
What "innocent dead?"

The Palestinians wanted some 1,500 terrorists released from Israeli jails in return for the one Israeli soldier they held. Although that seems like an "equal" trade at first blush, releasing that many terrorists would only exacerbate the entire situation in the Middle East. I'm glad Isreal took another option.


Israel's "other option" is collective punishment of civilians. Not acceptable.

Israel took many of the PA's officials hostage immediately- these would be the tokens in an exchange, not people already in prison.

This way its zero sum, no 'reward for bad behavior,' nothing gained by the palestinians.

Iran should do the same.
Good luck w'dat. At least you're consistent. :)

wow. just wow.

what about the innocent dead, what did they learn?
That's the thing about war. Many of the people who die are civilians. Still, that's the price you pay when you launch attacks into a neighboring country like Hezbollah did. Israel's job is to keep Israelis safe. It does so by punishing attacks against them. Lebanon's job is to keep Lebanese safe. It COULD have done so by disarming Hezbollah, but it decided not to.

What "innocent dead?"


The civilians killed in israel's collective-punishment reprisal attacks.

Oh well, it's a pointless war, thousands have died and will die but if that's what they all want then sod it. If the USA stops giving military aid to Israel at least the war might become slightly "fairer".

*dies of laughter*

Are you insane or just incapable of knowing that the Palestinian government is controlled by a bunch of terrorists?
Can you supply detailed proof of your claim?

They are still refugees. I am pretty sure that if you ask them, they will say they are no jordans. What is the point in asking them, then?and many of the israeli-arabs palastinians say they aren't israelis, but palastinians. still, the world wouldn't let us take their citizenship and take the plo responsible for them. and no one suggest that jordan will give some of her area to the palastinians.
double standarts, maybe?



Whoah, enough for the "theocracy" issue, don't you think?

Plus, arabs that want to be israeli citizens can't be that bad, no?large part of the arabs which get israeli citizenship (based on marriage and as like), used it as tool to help them with terror attacks.
arab states had no diplomatic relations with israel, and therefore they won't let their citizens migrate to israel.
and the israeli laws are far from thecratic.

Good luck w'dat. At least you're consistent. :)

Of course I'm consistent. :p

Israel's "other option" is collective punishment of civilians. Not acceptable.

Israel took many of the PA's officials hostage immediately- these would be the tokens in an exchange, not people already in prison.

This way its zero sum, no 'reward for bad behavior,' nothing gained by the palestinians.
All armed conflict is "zero sum."

Of course I'm consistent. :p
Heh! What's that quote? "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds?" ;)

Heh! What's that quote? "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds?" ;)

The quote's wrong, my friend. Consistency in one's beliefs should be a goal. :p

israel should be removed from the planet.

think about it. if the west helped the middle east to remove israel it might help some sort of peace process. if the jews want a country of there own, they should move to america. thats a jewish controled country. they just use the christian fundalmentalist as front men, like bush. hes just a pupet for his jewish masters.

Please tell me this was sarcastic.

Please tell me this was sarcastic.

Nah, just a troll.

Can you supply detailed proof of your claim?

I think the fact that Hamas is catagorized as a terroirst organization by most of the major intelegence agencies is proof enough.. (also the fact that Hamas militants are responsible for this current crisis should be obviouse of that fact)

Israel's "other option" is collective punishment of civilians. Not acceptable.

Israel took many of the PA's officials hostage immediately- these would be the tokens in an exchange, not people already in prison.

This way its zero sum, no 'reward for bad behavior,' nothing gained by the palestinians.
Hamas didn't want just a handfull of recently taken PA officials released. They wanted a whole shitload of terrorists released.

The quote's wrong, my friend. Consistency in one's beliefs should be a goal. :p
Oh? Why? :)

I have to say I agree with Gorias. Now we just need a mass evacuation and a huge flood.

You agree that Israel shouldn't exist? :rolleyes:

Do you know that Israel will forever exist as a nation till the end of time?

Oh? Why? :)

Without consistency, you're contradicting yourself.

Here's the full quote:

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall...” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

The civilians killed in israel's collective-punishment reprisal attacks.
blame the terrorists who attack from over-populated areas.
we don't punish, we fight the terror.

Without consistency, you're contradicting yourself.
So, since reality is inconsistent, reality contradicts itself? Hmmm. Something wrong with this picture. :)

Israil is a nation foundered of terroism. the isralis deserve what they get.. as for this it is an invation. i hope the surrounding countrys put isralil in its place.. but i highly doubt they will.

Welp. Israel has yet to lose a war against any of their neighbors so..... And just how are they going to stop them? With what? Israel defeated 5 arab nations at the same time incase you forgot.

Israel can not do any wrong

Here's the full quote:

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall...” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Wow...a real, honest-to-god philosophical debate in NS General? I'm shocked! :eek:

Not to mention impressed. ;)

When it comes down to it, Emerson was a wanker. He spewed. Thoreau listened and followed. Thoreau got tossed in jail. Did Emerson actually follow through on the stuff he espoused? No.

Bollocks.Both of them give show trials when their troops commit war crimes and deliver slaps on the wrists or not at all.

If you think otherwise, I dare you to show me any case of a US soldier convicted of committing war crimes and getting anything more than a laughable sentence when a civilian doing the same crime would get the chair or life in jail.

Hey asshole, why dont you think before you talk, currently a soldier is likely to get the death penalty (rightly deserved) for raping and murdering an Iraqi girl, and her family.

These soldiers are a disgrace to the uniform of the United States Military.

These scum are the exception, and not the rule. It pains me to see this kind of stuff happen, and it also pains me when people say that all soldiers are like this. Just as it pains me when people say that all Muslims are terrorists, once again, this is the exception and not the rule.

Eutrusca can not say anything wrong

Eutrusca can not say anything wrong
philosophically, what will happened if he will said that he or israel are wrong?
just curios.

philosophically, what will happened if he will said that he or israel are wrong?
just curios.

END OF THE WORLD!

I've been reading a fantastic book on MidEast politics called 'Six Days of War: June 1967 and the making of the Modern Middle East' by Michael B. Oren.

Aside from the obvious, the history of the 6Day War, the book goes into detail about the political climate of the middle east for the past 70+ years, as well as exploring BOTH sides of the conflict. Though the writer is obviously pro-Israel, he does a stellar job of maintaining objectivity. Be it Nasser or Ben-Gurion, the writer approaches the characters from the sidelines. I would suggest to anyone with interest in the matter to go find it and devour it's pages.

My own opinion? Pro Israel, here. I have alot of respect for the Arab world and it's history, but the current state of affairs is disgusting. The Jews are there to stay, seems to me. If suicide bombings and kidnappings are fair game for use as political weapons, so is large-scale conventional warfare, in my opinion. It's childish and silly to throw rocks then cry foul when someone takes a stick to you.

While both sides seem to be at fault as often as they are in the 'right', my own opinion is that Israel has the right to exist, as well as to defend itself. If that means smashing Lebanon in order to scourge Hezbollah, so be it. Beirut had plenty of time to get it's shit together and at least make some sort of attempt at satisfying Israel. Instead, they sat on their thumbs and now cry foul when the IDF takes it's own steps.

That's my word.

So, since reality is inconsistent, reality contradicts itself? Hmmm. Something wrong with this picture. :)

Reality's inconsistency is it's consistency. Much like a "double-negative" type of situation.

What "innocent dead?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm

quoted from article
Two civilians were killed when Israeli planes bombed a road bridge on major route though southern Lebanon.

that's 2 from that article.

I think the fact that Hamas is catagorized as a terroirst organization by most of the major intelegence agencies is proof enough.. (also the fact that Hamas militants are responsible for this current crisis should be obviouse of that fact)
I disagree. From Wikipedia:

Hamas (Arabic: حركة حماس‎) is a Palestinian Islamist organization. It is listed as a terrorist organization by Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, the European Union,[1] Israel, and the United States,[2] and is banned in Jordan.[3]

That does not mean that the Palestinian government is "a bunch of terrorists". I simply asked Corny to prove his assertions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm

quoted from article
Two civilians were killed when Israeli planes bombed a road bridge on major route though southern Lebanon.

that's 2 from that article.
bombing routes is known form of fighting, baning the enemy from bringing forces and weaponary. it isn't collective punnish for the lebanonese, and probably IDF tried to avoid this harm (unlike the terrorists who aim the civilians).

I disagree. From Wikipedia:



That does not mean that the Palestinian government is "a bunch of terrorists". I simply asked Corny to prove his assertions.
why you disagree? you just prove his point that the hammas are terrorists.
as you agree with that, would any western countrey will let Al-qaida ran in the elections (even if their candidates never act directly in terror, which I don't sure this is the palastinian case).

bombing routes is known form of fighting, baning the enemy from bringing forces and weaponary. it isn't collective punnish for the lebanonese, and probably IDF tried to avoid this harm (unlike the terrorists who aim the civilians).

its still innocents dying is it not?

previously isrealy soldiers have been captured and the gov. was willing to negotiate, so why not now?


God i hope this gets sorted out soon for everyones sake. poor sod's

I disagree. From Wikipedia:



That does not mean that the Palestinian government is "a bunch of terrorists". I simply asked Corny to prove his assertions.

Green Israel is quite right here.. you just proved my point with your own qoute... the whole of those countries listing it as a terrorist organization make up the a majority of the worlds largest intelegence agencies.. Seeing how most if not all of the free world so catagorizes this "organization" as terrorist in nature.. it stands to reason one could say, since they are in power ... the government is actualy run by terrorists...

Then again, you could just look at their mission statement.

I disagree. From Wikipedia:



That does not mean that the Palestinian government is "a bunch of terrorists". I simply asked Corny to prove his assertions.

Green Israel is quite right here.. you just proved my point with your own qoute... the whole of those countries listing it as a terrorist organization make up the a majority of the worlds largest intelegence agencies.. Seeing how most if not all of the free world so catagorizes this "organization" as terrorist in nature.. it stands to reason one could say, since they are in power ... the government is actualy run by terrorists...

Then again, you could just look at their mission statement.

Hey asshole, why dont you think before you talk, currently a soldier is likely to get the death penalty (rightly deserved) for raping and murdering an Iraqi girl, and her family.

You mean like how William Calley got the death penalty for being in charge of executing a whole village? Whoops, he got house arrest for 3 and 1/2 years. Then he walked with a Nuremberg defense.

Or how about Lynndie England? 3 years in prison.

Armin Cruz. Eight months confinement, busted to private. Bad misconduct discharge.

Oooh, how terrifying these punishments. Golly gee, I'm sure they'll tell the troopers that you won't get away with a crime.

It appears that YOU, need to think before you post.

And these disgraces you speak of? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the death penalty. In fact, I wouldn't expect them to get any sentence equal to or heavier than that if an American civilian committed similar crimes to American citizens.

So, can you prove me wrong? Can you prove that when US soldiers are caught committing crimes, especially war crimes, they get punished with something that is more serious than a slap on the wrist in comparison to their crimes?

Can you?

I don't think so.


Just as it pains me when people say that all Muslims are terrorists, once again, this is the exception and not the rule.

And Uncle Sam is more than willing to overlook these exceptions, or at least once the media dies down.

its still innocents dying is it not?
the sum may be even, but the way are more important.
terrorists aim on israeli citizens and act as they don't care for their own civilian lives.
israel take counter-terror actions in order to defence her citizens live, and try to harm as less as possible the lives of the other-side civilians (sometimes even despite it may harm the israeli soldiers). unfurtunally, their are accidents which sometimes harm civilians.
got the difference?

previously isrealy soldiers have been captured and the gov. was willing to negotiate, so why not now?


God i hope this gets sorted out soon for everyones sake. poor sod's
because they done this trick few times too much.
terrorists capture israelis--> israel released terrorists from the jail--> those terrorists attack israel.

this had happened too many times before, and we can't give up to the terrorists everytime they treat us.

its still innocents dying is it not?

previously isrealy soldiers have been captured and the gov. was willing to negotiate, so why not now?


God i hope this gets sorted out soon for everyones sake. poor sod's
When you negotiate with terrorists you encourage further terrorist acts against you in the future. Negotiations equal success in the terrorist's eyes. Successful strategies are repeated.

without getting into the entrenched positions that inevitibly happen on the israel paelstine conflict, the question surely is is the repsonse (and israel is of course entitled to respond) proportonate, morally justifiable and strategically wise.

i think no on all 3. 50 dead civilians in the gaza and invading a soverign nation you recently made a semblence of peace with for soldiers captured from tanks engaged in hostilities is way OTT

Olmert is trying to act like a harder man than Sharon for domestic consumption and has gone too far. is he deliberatly trying to restart the intifada?

i think no on all 3. 50 dead civilians in the gaza and invading a soverign nation you recently made a semblence of peace with for soldiers captured from tanks engaged in hostilities is way OTT

*Nods* That is exactly what the problem is, this is simply too far. Perhaps helping Lebanon remove terrorists, which it can now do since the Syrian occupation is over, rather than invading for the third time. This will undoubtedly be used by the terrorists as 'proof' that Israel will not accept its arab neighbours.

We all acept that Israel has a right to self determination and to defend its borders, but that applies to Lebanon and Palestine, too.

i think no on all 3. 50 dead civilians in the gaza and invading a soverign nation you recently made a semblence of peace with for soldiers captured from tanks engaged in hostilities is way OTT

Olmert is trying to act like a harder man than Sharon for domestic consumption and has gone too far. is he deliberatly trying to restart the intifada?
semblence of peace? they tried to kidnapp our soldiers every day after we pullout from southern lebanon. they succed few times.
the last time we release thousands of terrorists for 3 bodies and israeli who went suspiciously to lebanon.
this time we wan't let them go harmless with that.

When you negotiate with terrorists you encourage further terrorist acts against you in the future. Negotiations equal success in the terrorist's eyes. Successful strategies are repeated.
Exactly. There are a very limited number of options, most of which result in a victory of sorts for the torrorists:

* Ignore them, which gives them a blank check to attack you at their pleasure.

* Try to negotiate with them, which they will interpret as a successful use of terrorism.

* Attack them, which serves to infuriate them, but at least some of them will be dead and thus no longer able to attack you.

If anyone has a better option, I'd love to hear it.

Exactly. There are a very limited number of options, most of which result in a victory of sorts for the torrorists:

* Ignore them, which gives them a blank check to attack you at their pleasure.

* Try to negotiate with them, which they will interpret as a successful use of terrorism.

* Attack them, which serves to infuriate them, but at least some of them will be dead and thus no longer able to attack you.

If anyone has a better option, I'd love to hear it.

Expel everyone even suspected of being remotely related to someone with sympathies that may coincide with those of someone who's cat's previous owner had terroristic tendencies, and then build a really, really big wall.

*Nods* That is exactly what the problem is, this is simply too far. Perhaps helping Lebanon remove terrorists, which it can now do since the Syrian occupation is over, rather than invading for the third time. This will undoubtedly be used by the terrorists as 'proof' that Israel will not accept its arab neighbours.
see, the terrorists always find proofs.
if we pullout or negotiate with them- it is proof for the success of the terror.
if we attack- it is proof we aren't want peace.
if we do nothing- it is proof they can go further, without danger.
there is nothing israel can do, without the terrorists claim their victory.
We all acept that Israel has a right to self determination and to defend its borders, but that applies to Lebanon and Palestine, too.
if they control the area, they can fight the terror, and give us the kidnnaped soldiers.
if they aren't, we can get in and do whatever it take to get back the kidnnaped soldiers.
they can't use this excuse on both sides.

Expel everyone even suspected of being remotely related to someone with sympathies that may coincide with those of someone who's cat's previous owner had terroristic tendencies, and then build a really, really big wall.
now that is silly exaggeration of what he said.
any sensible idea?

Answer: Because they're badass.

are there any countries bordering israel that they arent prepared to take on? Im guesing only egypt. what happens if egyptian extremists take israel soldiers? or jordanian ones?

because they done this trick few times too much.
terrorists capture israelis--> israel released terrorists from the jail--> those terrorists attack israel.

this had happened too many times before, and we can't give up to the terrorists everytime they treat us.Yes, and attacking militants whenever something like that happens has been just as successful in convincing terrorists to stop.

see, the terrorists always find proofs.
if we pullout or negotiate with them- it is proof for the success of the terror.
if we attack- it is proof we aren't want peace.
if we do nothing- it is proof they can go further, without danger.
there is nothing israel can do, without the terrorists claim their victory.

Welcome to the weird, wacky & wonderful world of Propaganda!
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1083/propaganda5jb.jpg

Yes, and attacking militants whenever something like that happens has been just as successful in convincing terrorists to stop.
if you had no better way, the millitant way atleast reduce their number for a while.
you can't negotiate terror as you can't negotiate the nazis (really not comparing). they had war against all the western world, and they probably wan't give up by negotiation.
most of the terrorists leaders are coward and if you fight them they will hide and make ceasefire in order to stay with their heads on. this is the only way against terrorist who understand nothing but force.

what problem?

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/james-horton/middleeast.jpg

semblence of peace? they tried to kidnapp our soldiers every day after we pullout from southern lebanon. they succed few times.
the last time we release thousands of terrorists for 3 bodies and israeli who went suspiciously to lebanon.
this time we wan't let them go harmless with that.

who is they?

are you personally responsible for what the Maronites did in Sabra and Shatila? lots of far right terror gangs have used israel as a base over the years.


you cant attack a soverign nation because of the behaviour of terrorists, or Israel would have been annexed long ago.

are there any countries bordering israel that they arent prepared to take on? Im guesing only egypt. what happens if egyptian extremists take israel soldiers? or jordanian ones?
egypt and jordan faought the terror on their area. we can trust their leaders to act against terrorists who attack us from their area as they suffer from the same problems.
lebanon and the PLO is different story, and that why they are the only countries we faught on the last 3 decades or so.

egypt and jordan faought the terror on their area. we can trust their leaders to act against terrorists who attack us from their area as they suffer from the same problems.
lebanon and the PLO is different story, and that why they are the only countries we faught on the last 3 centuries or so.


i hope thats a typing error of some description?

otherwise the zionist propaganda machine is in serious overdrive :p

who is they?the hizbulla who effectively rule the area of southern lebanon. they are responsible to that kidnapping and the goverment of lebanon is thoothless so they can't do nothing against them.
that mean lebanon aren't control the area and we had all the right to act there in order to release the kidnapped.

are you personally responsible for what the Maronites did in Sabra and Shatila? lots of far right terror gangs have used israel as a base over the years.
name [n]one[/b] terror group. sabra and shatila is lebanon inner problem and even sharon is no more responsible to it than by lack of thought who made him ignore the local gang fights.


you cant attack a soverign nation because of the behaviour of terrorists, or Israel would have been annexed long ago.if they soverign they responsible for terror groups who camped in their area (as terror support country).
if they said they can't, they should move aside and let us take care for the terrorists.
israel had no terror groups in her area which aren't take care off, and we surely aren't support any of those groups.

if you had no better way, the millitant way atleast reduce their number for a while.
you can't negotiate terror as you can't negotiate the nazis (really not comparing). they had war against all the western world, and they probably wan't give up by negotiation.
most of the terrorists leaders are coward and if you fight them they will hide and make ceasefire in order to stay with their heads on. this is the only way against terrorist who understand nothing but force.Problem is, negotiating with them won't help much and killing them won't help much either. Killing them just radicalizes those that survive. Those kinds of tactics didn't work for the British against the Nazis either.

i hope thats a typing error of some description?

otherwise the zionist propaganda machine is in serious overdrive :p
the last great war we had was "Yom Kippur war" in 1973 (also known as October war).
since then we signed peace treaties with jordan and egypt, and faught with terrorists in lebanon and the PLO.
maybe I should mention Iraq which we bombed their nuclear facility (but that was one time mission), and they launch missles on us at 1991 (at the gulf war which we haven't involved).
did I forget something?

the last great war we had was "Yom Kippur war" in 1973 (also known as October war).
since then we signed peace treaties with jordan and egypt, and faught with terrorists in lebanon and the PLO.
maybe I should mention Iraq which we bombed their nuclear facility (but that was one time mission), and they launch missles on us at 1991 (at the gulf war which we haven't involved).
did I forget something?
Maybe that decades aren't centuries? ;)

Problem is, negotiating with them won't help much and killing them won't help much either. Killing them just radicalizes those that survive. Those kinds of tactics didn't work for the British against the Nazis either.
still there isn't other way.
I am all for peace treaty with the palastinian, but terrorists are really different case. they want destroy me and my countrey, as much as all the other western world.
you can't negotiate with such people.

Maybe that decades aren't centuries? ;)
oh, I change that. thanks.

if they soverign they responsible for terror groups who camped in their area (as terror support country).
if they said they can't, they should move aside and let us take care for the terrorists.
israel had no terror groups in her area which aren't take care off, and we surely aren't support any of those groups.Ah, but when Austria-Hungary did that, it caused WWI and led to all sorts of trouble and bloodshed.

still there isn't other way.
I am all for peace treaty with the palastinian, but terrorists are really different case. they want destroy me and my countrey, as much as all the other western world.
you can't negotiate with such people.Then I suppose the entire thing is a dead end, because the continued attacks on the Palestinians are just going to breed the next generation of terrorists.

Ah, but when Austria-Hungary did that, it caused WWI and led to all sorts of trouble and bloodshed.
europe before WW1 was box full off gun powder. if the assanation wouldn't start the war it would blow up after some weaks, or months, or years.
the middle east may be as same, only we already let some of their terror actions go away, and they still keep attack us. this time we wan't let it pass.

Then I suppose the entire thing is a dead end, because the continued attacks on the Palestinians are just going to breed the next generation of terrorists.
unfortunally, the next generation will be born anyway.
all the ways lead to dead ends.

israel had no terror groups in her area which aren't take care off, awnd we surely aren't support any of those groups.


you cant criticise the lebanese on this and then ignore all the falangist type groups your goverment was involved in helping/running.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
its hypocritical

no-one is denying you have the right to react to the capture of your soldiers. its the extreme reaction thats casung unese.

you cant criticise the lebanese on this and then ignore all the falangist type groups your goverment was involved in helping/running.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
its hypocriticalsabra and shatila terrorists:
-haven't supported by israel.
-haven't trained nor acts on israeli area or with israeli aid.
-weren't israelis nor israeli-allied.
sharon maybe make mistake by the fact he didn't over-seen what happened in the palastinian camps and act to prevent it, but that all.
it isn't the case with the terrorists in labnon and the plo.
no-one is denying you have the right to react to the capture of your soldiers. its the extreme reaction thats casung unese.
let me ask you: what self-defence or reaction of israel IS justified? from which stage it become extreme?

europe before WW1 was box full off gun powder. if the assanation wouldn't start the war it would blow up after some weaks, or months, or years.
the middle east may be as same, only we already let some of their terror actions go away, and they still keep attack us. this time we wan't let it pass.Austria-Hungary was having a lot of trouble with Serb terrorism. They lost their Archduke to it. In the end, going to war on the grounds that Serbia refused to surrender its sovereignity didn't end well for Austria Hungary.

Austria-Hungary was having a lot of trouble with Serb terrorism. They lost their Archduke to it. In the end, going to war on the grounds that Serbia refused to surrender its sovereignity didn't end well for Austria Hungary.
maybe, but this is very different case and I wish to avoid history discusion in this thread, since I don't remember much about the WW1 at this time, and I really can't get your point in this case.
what exactly you propose based on the austro-hungarian case (which is very different)?

sabra and shatila terrorists:
-haven't supported by israel.
-haven't trained nor acts on israeli area or with israeli aid.
-weren't israelis nor israeli-allied.
sharon maybe make mistake by the fact he didn't over-seen what happened in the palastinian camps and act to prevent it, but that all.
it isn't the case with the terrorists in labnon and the plo.

let me ask you: what self-defence or reaction of israel IS justified? from which stage it become extreme?

the knisset disagree with you on sabra and shatilla when the investegated.

the point it became extreme? the 50th civilain death and the invasion of lebanon maybe?

It's childish and silly to throw rocks then cry foul when someone takes a stick to you.
Sigged!

the knisset disagree with you on sabra and shatilla when the investegated. the knesset thought that the fact he didn't predict that said something about his strategy skills, and therefore he shouldn't serve as minister of defence (surprisngly, this ban didn't said anything about prime ministery.
they didn't said he arranged it in purpose.
the point it became extreme? the 50th civilain death and the invasion of lebanon maybe?
those "civilians" are mostly terrorists, and the action of lebanonon were must.
noticed you forget the part of productive ideas of legitimate actions?

maybe, but this is very different case and I wish to avoid history discusion in this thread, since I don't remember much about the WW1 at this time, and I really can't get your point in this case.
what exactly you propose based on the austro-hungarian case (which is very different)?Well, that particular problem has only started dying down now that there are NATO and EU troops guarding the peace in the Balkans.

I saw the news this morning in the chow hall at the motel and nearly all the military personell had their eyes fixated upon the screen, watching it intently while eating breakfast.

Israel takes care of their guys, that's for sure. Not so sure about Hamas and Hezbollah, they seem to use them as sacrificial lambs with stupid stuff like this.

those "civilians" are mostly terrorists, and the action of lebanonon were must.
noticed you forget the part of productive ideas of legitimate actions?

you mean the action of hizbolla. you are making that mistake a lot.

those civilains are terrorists? do they become terrorists when the IDF kill them or is that a racist comment?

these actions are disproportionate. innocents have died.

Israel is duking it out with it's neighbors....

North Korea is testing it's boundaries and the will of the anti-proliferation countries..(US, SK, Japan)

Iran is heating up...


Sounds like WW3, no?

Well, that particular problem has only started dying down now that there are NATO and EU troops guarding the peace in the Balkans.
the UN forces in the balkans prefer to look the other side while the slauters take place. even when they tried to fight they didn't do nothing.
I don't think they may help here. especially after we pullout until the last meter in lebanon and gaza strip and the UN the continious terror from those areas.
anyway, it will harm the soverignity of israel, and I hardly can see how they will help.

Israel is duking it out with it's neighbors....

North Korea is testing it's boundaries and the will of the anti-proliferation countries..(US, SK, Japan)

Iran is heating up...


Sounds like WW3, no?
Nahh. Just the usual run of bullshit. :(

"Then Samson prayed to the LORD, 'O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes' (Judges 16:28)." "Samson said, 'Let me die with the Philistines!' (Judges 16:30) Down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more as he died than while he lived." (Judges 16:30).

"Then Samson prayed to the LORD, 'O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes' (Judges 16:28)." "Samson said, 'Let me die with the Philistines!' (Judges 16:30) Down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more as he died than while he lived." (Judges 16:30).

"what the fuck has this bullshit got to do with anything?" (the SR 24:4)

you mean the action of hizbolla. you are making that mistake a lot.

those civilains are terrorists? do they become terrorists when the IDF kill them or is that a racist comment?

these actions are disproportionate. innocents have died.

Hahaha.


Israel won't stop until it's soldiers are returned, alive. In the meantime they will do just what they are doing-killing Hezbollah and taking names. Hopefully they are capturing tons of prisoners so they can barter them for their guys back.

GO IDF, Get some!

And no, it's not 'disproportionate'. It's exactly what they should do. If some group of never-do-wells ever kidnapped me I could only hope for the rescue for israel is sending out for its men.

you mean the action of hizbolla. you are making that mistake a lot. no, I talked about the israeli actions ON lebanon, which I think we were must do.

different mistake.
those civilains are terrorists? do they become terrorists when the IDF kill them or is that a racist comment?not all of them are terrorists, but mostly the PLO numbers are faked since they include the terrorists as civilians.

these actions are disproportionate. innocents have died.in the israeli side, also.
the fact is this fight will stop only when we get our kiddnapped soldiers back, and the terrorists will give them only if we free terrorists from the israeli jails.
that way, the terrorists will claim a victory, and raise their moral and the released terrorists will continue with their terror attacks. in the end, it will only make more civilians deaths.

do nothing is bad solution.

"what the fuck has this bullshit got to do with anything?" (the SR 24:4)

Samson was a Jewish Nazarene who took out an entire building after he was paraded up in front of hundreds, if not thousands of philistines (I think early palestinians?)

Has anyone thought what will happen when Israel finds out its' soldiers are already dead?

Has anyone thought what will happen when Israel finds out its' soldiers are already dead?exactly what happened now, but on much larger scale.

exactly what happened now, but on much larger scale.

More dead civilians? Isreal needs to find a way to gracefully extricate itself from this situation.

Has anyone thought what will happen when Israel finds out its' soldiers are already dead?


I'm pretty sure it will either involve the deaths of scores of Hamas and jailed Hezbollah members, or it will be..






tic
tic
tic
tic
tic
tic































BOOM SWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

More dead civilians? Isreal needs to find a way to gracefully extricate itself from this situation.

You know, it would be easier if Hamas and Hezbollah wouldn't kidnap and kill IDF and israeli civilians. Probaby save the sorry pathetic lives of their followers.

no, I talked about the israeli actions ON lebanon, which I think we were must do.

different mistake.
not all of them are terrorists, but mostly the PLO numbers are faked since they include the terrorists as civilians.

in the israeli side, also.
the fact is this fight will stop only when we get our kiddnapped soldiers back, and the terrorists will give them only if we free terrorists from the israeli jails.
that way, the terrorists will claim a victory, and raise their moral and the released terrorists will continue with their terror attacks. in the end, it will only make more civilians deaths.

do nothing is bad solution.

who said do nothing? is a full scale armour invasion the answer? tactically? strategically? it makes very little military sense to launch airstrikes and artillary into the area you think he is being held in.

the first guy was captured while firing artillary into the gaza, the most densely population place in the world, in the exact same fashion that killed those people at the beach a few weeks ago. he was literally burnt playing with fire.

im very dissaoppionted that any jew has that attitude to innocent deaths with your religions recent history.


Israel won't stop until it's soldiers are returned, alive. In the meantime they will do just what they are doing-killing Hezbollah and taking names. Hopefully they are capturing tons of prisoners so they can barter them for their guys back.

GO IDF, Get some!

And no, it's not 'disproportionate'. It's exactly what they should do. If some group of never-do-wells ever kidnapped me I could only hope for the rescue for israel is sending out for its men.

have they killed even one hezbollah man yet? but they have killed 50 innocents.

i get the funny feeling if anyone was unfourtunate enough to capture you, they would realease you quickley just to not have to listen to you :rolleyes:

More dead civilians? Isreal needs to find a way to gracefully extricate itself from this situation.how?
hid behind the desk? run away from the bad terrorists? do all they want, and please them to forgive us?
be realistic. they will keep attack us, and we keep self-defence acts, and counter-terror attacks in order to release the kiddnapers and keep our citizens lives anytime anywhere.

who said do nothing? is a full scale armour invasion the answer? tactically? strategically? it makes very little military sense to launch airstrikes and artillary into the area you think he is being held in.

the first guy was captured while firing artillary into the gaza, the most densely population place in the world, in the exact same fashion that killed those people at the beach a few weeks ago. he was literally burnt playing with fire.

im very dissaoppionted that any jew has that attitude to innocent deaths with your religions recent history.

have they killed even one hezbollah man yet? but they have killed 50 innocents.

i get the funny feeling if anyone was unfourtunate enough to capture you, they would realease you quickley just to not have to listen to you :rolleyes:

They've killed scores of Hezbollah, and even more hamas. If I was captured, chances are they'd either release me (I'm an american...but then again I'm also Jewish) or torture me/behead me.

I'm a Christian jew, not a judaist Jew....

Samson was a Jewish Nazarene who took out an entire building after he was paraded up in front of hundreds, if not thousands of philistines (I think early palestinians?)

shhhh, the Israeli lobby deny they were there back then. get with the propeganda programme soldier

They've killed scores of Hezbollah, and even more hamas. If I was captured, chances are they'd either release me (I'm an american...but then again I'm also Jewish) or torture me/behead me.

I'm a Christian jew, not a judaist Jew....

what does that even mean?

and i think childish keyboard hardman overrides all ethnic and religious descriptions of your brave self

how?
hid behind the desk? run away from the bad terrorists? do all they want, and please them to forgive us?
be realistic. they will keep attack us, and we keep self-defence acts, and counter-terror attacks in order to release the kiddnapers and keep our citizens lives anytime anywhere.

Oh I'm sorry, I was unaware that killing civilians was part of some master plan to defeat terrorists.

Please, enlighten us further as to exactly how it will reduce the number of terrorists who hate Israel and make the Israeli people safer.

Nothing promotes terrorism like killing peoples families.

They've killed scores of Hezbollah, and even more hamas. If I was captured, chances are they'd either release me (I'm an american...but then again I'm also Jewish) or torture me/behead me.

I'm a Christian jew, not a judaist Jew....


Kinda off topic...but how can you be a Christian Jew?

Oh I'm sorry, I was unaware that killing civilians was part of some master plan to defeat terrorists.

Please, enlighten us further as to exactly how it will reduce the number of terrorists who hate Israel and make the Israeli people safer.

Nothing promotes terrorism like killing peoples families.


When terrorists hide amongst civilians, it's kinda hard to kill the terrorists without hitting a few civilians along with them. It sucks, but if the terrorists attacked Israel from non-civilian areas, civlians woulnd't be killed...PERIOD.

Here some detail about the attacks.

HH
---------------------------------------------------------------

IAF jets, navy gunboats pound PFLP base south of Beirut
By YAAKOV KATZ, HERB KEINON AND JPOST STAFF

IAF warplanes and navy gunboats struck a Palestinian terrorist base south of Beirut late Wednesday, Lebanese security officials said, in the closest raid to the Lebanese capital since fighting erupted in southern Lebanon after the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers.

All residents along Israel's northern border from Nahariya in the west to Kiryat Shmona in the east were ordered into bomb shelters on Wednesday night.

Warplanes flew over the Naameh base in the hills overlooking the Mediterranean, about 16 kilometers south of Beirut. Gunboats sailed facing the position, and explosions rang out across the area.

The base is run by the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command and was a frequent target of Israeli attacks in the past.

For a Jerusalem Online video of events click here

Meanwhile, the names of three of the eight soldiers killed Wednesday in a Hizbullah attack on IDF forces patrolling the Lebanese border were released for publication Wednesday evening: Sgt. Nimrod Cohen, 19, from Mitzpe Shalem; Sgt.-Major Eyal Benin, 22, of Be'ersheba and Sgt.-Major Shani Turgeman, 24, of Beit Shean. All the soldiers' families have been notified.

Under heavy fire, IDF forces continued Wednesday evening their attempts to reclaim the bodies of the four soldiers who died when the tank in which they were riding drove over an explosive device and was ripped apart by the blast.

Three other soldiers were killed were riding in a Hummer jeep when it was attacked, while two other soldiers in the same jeep were kidnapped.

According to reports, the two captives - reported to be a 22-year-old career military officer from the Druse village of Kfar Yanuach in the Galilee and a 26-year-old reservist from Kiryat Motzkin - were wounded, and army sources were concerned for their lives. Their names have not been released for publication.

IDF ground troops were sent into Lebanon to search for the abducted men

who said do nothing? is a full scale armour invasion the answer? tactically? strategically? it makes very little military sense to launch airstrikes and artillary into the area you think he is being held in. and yet, you fail to give alternative.

the first guy was captured while firing artillary into the gaza, the most densely population place in the world, in the exact same fashion that killed those people at the beach a few weeks ago. he was literally burnt playing with fire. this base wasn't the one who launch artillery on gaza strip. all the artillery launched on empty areas (which made the rightwing attack this action).
the beach family story had many flaws, but I wan't get into it. the family died from bomb who launched to there before (and I don't said it make it better).
all this time the palastinians keep launch missle on israeli cities.

im very dissaoppionted that any jew has that attitude to innocent deaths with your religions recent history. did I wrong or you just compare the israeli actions to the nazis?



have they killed even one hezbollah man yet? but they have killed 50 innocents.

most of the 50 are from gaza strip and are far from innocent. the PLO ussually include the terrorists in their faked numbers.

shhhh, the Israeli lobby deny they were there back then. get with the propeganda programme soldier

The ancient phillistines are in no way related to the modern day Arab Palestinians...no debate there.

Palestine is the name of the land given by the Romans specificallyto spite the Jews..because of our history with the Phillisitines. The British then took the same name that the Romans gave to the land..Hence Palestinians...

shhhh, the Israeli lobby deny they were there back then. get with the propeganda programme soldier

so now the bible is reliable source of information?
good. you just prove the religious statement that all the middle east is belonged to the jewish.

When terrorists hide amongst civilians, it's kinda hard to kill the terrorists without hitting a few civilians along with them. It sucks, but if the terrorists attacked Israel from non-civilian areas, civlians woulnd't be killed...PERIOD.

So if you get killed by a military force seeking terrorists then I should just tell your mother that you were acceptable collateral dammage and anyway it not the militaries fault, it's the fault of those damn terrorists for being there in the first place?

So if you get killed by a military force seeking terrorists then I should just tell your mother that you were acceptable collateral dammage and anyway it not the militaries fault, it's the fault of those damn terrorists for being there in the first place?

Absolutely! The blood is on the hands of those who hide amongst civilians who KNOW that when they attack Israel, and WHEN Israel retaliates that civilians will be killed. Israel won't sit back and let their civilians be terrorized because they hide amongs ttheir own people.

Also, the Palestinians DEMOCRATICALLY elected a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION into power and are therefore responsible for the actions of the government that THEY put into power.

Oh I'm sorry, I was unaware that killing civilians was part of some master plan to defeat terrorists.

Please, enlighten us further as to exactly how it will reduce the number of terrorists who hate Israel and make the Israeli people safer.

Nothing promotes terrorism like killing peoples families.
we are the ones who try to avoid harm in both sides civilians. accidents may happened during wars, and we apologize when it does happen, but most of the killed are terrorists (which had no care for israeli nor palastinians civilians).

and yet, you fail to give alternative.

did I wrong or you just compare the israeli actions to the nazis?

most of the 50 are from gaza strip and are far from innocent. the PLO ussually include the terrorists in their faked numbers.

im saying that for a member of a group who have been through that much, your value on human life, innocent life, is distasteful.



The ancient phillistines are in no way related to the modern day Arab Palestinians...no debate there.

Palestine is the name of the land given by the Romans specificallyto spite the Jews..because of our history with the Phillisitines. The British then took the same name that the Romans gave to the land..Hence Palestinians...

tell DM that. i was telling him he was wrong.
Absolutely! The blood is on the hands of those who hide amongst civilians who KNOW that when they attack Israel, and WHEN Israel retaliates that civilians will be killed. Israel won't sit back and let their civilians be terrorized because they hide amongs ttheir own people.

Also, the Palestinians DEMOCRATICALLY elected a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION into power and are therefore responsible for the actions of the government that THEY put into power.

your civilains werent terrorised here, they were tank soldiers. in tanks. with guns. stop trying to deflect.

the israelis democratically elected an indicted war criminal who had been stripped of his military rank because of his part in a massacre. we can play the schoolyard finger pointing all night

Kinda off topic...but how can you be a Christian Jew?

Jews who still beleive the messiah (Christ) has yet to come-judaism

Anyone of any ethnicity can be a christian-professing a beleif that christ has come, died to pay for your evil acts, etc.

I am a jew who has beleived that the messiah (Christ) has already come, and my people freakin' killed him.

Jews who still beleive the messiah (Christ) has yet to come-judaism

Anyone of any ethnicity can be a christian-professing a beleif that christ has come, died to pay for your evil acts, etc.

I am a jew who has beleived that the messiah (Christ) has already come, and my people freakin' killed him.


See...Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophecies of the Moshaich...when Moshiach does come, all the Jews will be brought back to Israel and there will be peace throughout the world..theres no second coming etc...oh yea, and the Jewish Mosiah will not be the son of G-d, he will be a normal man.

Also, the Palestinians DEMOCRATICALLY elected a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION into power and are therefore responsible for the actions of the government that THEY put into power.

Slow down sparkey, the Palestinians don't have an independant state, according the the Israelis, so the Israelis are killing their own people indiscriminatly.

And if you think that Palestine is state independant from Israel, then by killing civilians its' troops are commiting war crimes.

Not quite so clear cut when you look at it that way.

Oh yea...Vatican II...Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did.

The ancient phillistines are in no way related to the modern day Arab Palestinians...no debate there.

Palestine is the name of the land given by the Romans specificallyto spite the Jews..because of our history with the Phillisitines. The British then took the same name that the Romans gave to the land..Hence Palestinians...


I see. My mistake, I erred.

im saying that for a member of a group who have been through that much, your value on human life, innocent life, is distasteful.

tell DM that. i was telling him he was wrong.

your civilains werent terrorised here, they were tank soldiers. in tanks. with guns. stop trying to deflect.

the israelis democratically elected an indicted war criminal who had been stripped of his military rank because of his part in a massacre. we can play the schoolyard finger pointing all night

Terrorised where? Be more specific.

I have a high regard for innocent lives. They key word is innocent, but I won't miss out a chance to waste a top leader of my enemy's if he is parked in the parking lot of his neighbor's house. Sorry, but tough luck.

we are the ones who try to avoid harm in both sides civilians. accidents may happened during wars, and we apologize when it does happen, but most of the killed are terrorists (which had no care for israeli nor palastinians civilians).

So that makes the dead kids ok?

Slow down sparkey, the Palestinians don't have an independant state, according the the Israelis, so the Israelis are killing their own people indiscriminatly.

And if you think that Palestine is state independant from Israel, then by killing civilians its' troops are commiting war crimes.

Not quite so clear cut when you look at it that way.


You're right, they don't have a state, but they democratically elect their leaders. That's what OSLO did...it gave the Palesitnians a specific leadership..the fact that leadership is a group of terrorists..well thats another story.

Jews who still beleive the messiah (Christ) has yet to come-judaism

Anyone of any ethnicity can be a christian-professing a beleif that christ has come, died to pay for your evil acts, etc.

I am a jew who has beleived that the messiah (Christ) has already come, and my people freakin' killed him.


if you believe christ has come and was the messiah you are by definition a christian.

are you saying your ethnic background is hebrew but you are a practiscing christian? :confused:

So that makes the dead kids ok?


Dead anyone is never ok unless they are bloo thirsty terrorists..but if the terrorists hide among civilians, than the blood is on their hands, not Israels.

Dead anyone is never ok unless they are bloo thirsty terrorists..but if the terrorists hide among civilians, than the blood is on their hands, not Israels.

but you have gone into civilain areas after them...... they arent hiding there, they live there.

some of the posters here live in a hollywood movie

Oh yea...Vatican II...Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did.

Err, there was a chance to release Christ but the Jewish leaders demanded his death to Pilat.

Yes, the Romans killed Christ. The Jews put him there-even Pilat himself said "I find no fault in this man".

Question: How can Israeli troops move into other countries?

Because they can.

but you have gone into civilain areas after them...... they arent hiding there, they live there.

some of the posters here live in a hollywood movie

No, they attack rom civilian areas. This is where they hide...so they will be targeted there. They do this on purpose. Isn't it obvious that these people don't value human life like we do? They send their children into Israel with bombs attached to their bodies.

You're right, they don't have a state, but they democratically elect their leaders. That's what OSLO did...it gave the Palesitnians a specific leadership..the fact that leadership is a group of terrorists..well thats another story.

Dude, you need to be careful about demanding that the people take responsability for the crimes of their leaders. Alot of the world believes that the leaders of the US should be charged with criminal offenses.

See...Jesus doesn't fulfill the prophecies of the Moshaich...when Moshiach does come, all the Jews will be brought back to Israel and there will be peace throughout the world..theres no second coming etc...oh yea, and the Jewish Mosiah will not be the son of G-d, he will be a normal man.

Christ was a normal man-he hungered, thirsted, slept, prayed, etc. He was also the son of god, which makes him equal to the father in jewish eyes.

There was peace in the world at Christ's time-Pax romana, or translated, "Peace of Rome". 200 or so years of peace made possible by roman military numbers.

Err, there was a chance to release Christ but the Jewish leaders demanded his death to Pilat.

Yes, the Romans killed Christ. The Jews put him there-even Pilat himself said "I find no fault in this man".


Kiafas, the high priest who was corrupt, wanted Jesus dead. Thats one man, not a people.

Because they can.

Hitler invaded Czechslovakia on bicycles.

Christ was a normal man-he hungered, thirsted, slept, prayed, etc. He was also the son of god, which makes him equal to the father in jewish eyes.

There was peace in the world at Christ's time-Pax romana, or translated, "Peace of Rome". 200 or so years of peace made possible by roman military numbers.

G-d doesn't have a son, not in the Jewish faith. No dispute there. If the Moshiac did come, we'd still beliving in peace and all the Jews woul dhave been brought to Israel..hasn't happened yet. Got nothing against Christians, but Jewishly, Jesus was not and is nnot the Messiah

im saying that for a member of a group who have been through that much, your value on human life, innocent life, is distasteful.

I care for human lives. probably much more than this bloody terrorists.
only this is war. and in war many killed. thousands of soldiers and civilians in both sides.

israel do as much as it can to avoid the never-neccesery death of civilians IN BOTH SIDES. sometimes it isn't enough, but if we didn't take this actions MORE civilians will be dead.
in the meantime, the terrorists hide and attack us from area with dense population. they try to kill our civilians, while they use their civilians as HUMAN SHIELD.
really different things.

btw, my grandpas family died in the holocust and it is sensitive issue for me and for all of the jewish in the world. may you stop with the disgusting comparations you trying to make. the israeli values and actions are in no way close to the nazis, and this is really wouldn't help you on the discussion to keep saying that.

Dude, you need to be careful about demanding that the people take responsability for the crimes of their leaders. Alot of the world believes that the leaders of the US should be charged with criminal offenses.

I think we would have a lot of executions all around the world. Think of it - if we had to hang leaders (and their supporters) for their "crimes", both real and imagined.

As long as we're being festive, we could also make everyone pay reparations to everyone else, for every wrong that was ever perpetrated by anyone's ancestors against anyone else's ancestors.

Dead anyone is never ok unless they are bloo thirsty terrorists..but if the terrorists hide among civilians, than the blood is on their hands, not Israels.

Cop out. People are responsible for their own actions. The blood is on the hands of the soldiers who are too lazy to go in and find their targets, prefering to attack from afar.

Or would you prefer that the terrorists lived in camps away from other people to make it easy for the IDF :rolleyes:

if you believe christ has come and was the messiah you are by definition a christian.

are you saying your ethnic background is hebrew but you are a practiscing christian? :confused:

My ethnic background is mostly American indian, with Jewish and some european ancestry thrown in.

but you have gone into civilain areas after them...... they arent hiding there, they live there.

some of the posters here live in a hollywood movie

I guess they could sit outside and hit it with high explosive artillery...great way to wipe out the bad guys AND lots of collateral.

*Some* of the posters here seem to live in a pussified state...

I didn't bother to read most of the thread but it I am sure there are many anti-Israelis out there screaming and shouting about breaking rules and crap. Well what if a group bombarded the US from mexico or canado, or say, A group in france carried out attacks on the British, would not the attacked want to have some sort of military action? Thats all this is. The Lebanese gov't supports this terrorist group, and so when it carries out any mortar attacks or in this case, kidnaps 2 soldiers, it is like the gov't itself is doing it. I think Olmert need to get his cowboy boots on and prepare to pwn anyone else that wants to f*ck with Israel.

No, they attack rom civilian areas. This is where they hide...so they will be targeted there. They do this on purpose. Isn't it obvious that these people don't value human life like we do? They send their children into Israel with bombs attached to their bodies.

its also where they live. whats the difference? they justify bus bombs with that same sort twisted logic, arent all israelis soldiers?

Britain or any other country would probably be the same when it comes to war if it was surrounded by tso many vicious arab countries.

also israel recieve amazing amounts of bombings, about the same amount of 7/7, weekly.

So that makes the dead kids ok?have you noticed the part that unlike the terrorists, WE AREN'T AIM THE KIDS?

have you noticed the part that unlike the terrorists, WE AREN'T AIM THE KIDS?

No, but you still hit them.

but you have gone into civilain areas after them...... they arent hiding there, they live there.

some of the posters here live in a hollywood movie
unlike you who live in bad fantasy.
it is damn war that we didn't start, and we are the ones who tried to stop hit and avoid harm in civilians.

No, but you still hit them.
Can't be helped if they use children as human shields.

Can't be helped if they use children as human shields.

Yes it can, watch.

'Look a child in the way'
'Don't shoot then'
'Ok I won't'

See? No dead kids.

I think we would have a lot of executions all around the world. Think of it - if we had to hang leaders (and their supporters) for their "crimes", both real and imagined.

As long as we're being festive, we could also make everyone pay reparations to everyone else, for every wrong that was ever perpetrated by anyone's ancestors against anyone else's ancestors.

Read the post I was responding to. There was an inference being made.

Can't be helped if they use children as human shields.


Gar...It makes me sick to think of how the Arabs can get away with the "They(israel) kill our children", while they are the ones using the children, as you said, as human shields.:mad:

No, but you still hit them.

you go tell that to the palis, are you saying that no Jews kids get hurt in the palistinian bombing?

Yes it can, watch.

'Look a child in the way'
'Don't shoot then'
'Ok I won't'

See? No dead kids.

-Man behind kid pulls out a gun, and shoots two Israeli soldiers, but the Israelis don't shoot back, because of the kid- yup, sounds good to me.

Yes it can, watch.

'Look a child in the way'
'Don't shoot then'
'Ok I won't'

See? No dead kids.

Oh, so they can shoot at us while using human shields? Marvelous tactic, that.

Sorry, it's forbidden to use civilians as human shields, and IIRC, legal to shoot at people using them. You can also try the captives later for war crimes (their use of human shields) and the deaths of the civilians are on their hands.

Nifty legal stuff!

No, but you still hit them.
and we said we are sorry for them.
you know the terrorists AIM the childrens, and you still attack israel for self defence? how hypocratic you can be?

you go tell that to the palis, are you saying that no Jews kids get hurt in the palistinian bombing?

The Israeli govt. must live up to highter standards of behaviour than a terrorist organisation, otherwise why should the rest of the world treat it as anything better?

My ethnic background is mostly American indian, with Jewish and some european ancestry thrown in.



I guess they could sit outside and hit it with high explosive artillery...great way to wipe out the bad guys AND lots of collateral.

*Some* of the posters here seem to live in a pussified state...

and a lot of fantasy land blood.

i would be astonished if you pass the psychometric tests for any army.

and we said we are sorry for them.
you know the terrorists AIM the childrens, and you still attack israel for self defence? how hypocratic you can be?

No, I attack Israel for killing civilians. I never have, or will, defend the actions of Palistinian terrorists but I won't accept Israeli apoligists using 'they started it' as an excuse.

Yes it can, watch.

'Look a child in the way'
'Don't shoot then'
'Ok I won't'

See? No dead kids.
and then they will keep launch mislles and suicide bombers on israeli childrens.
you know that israel mostly shoot the terrorists in empty areas, but the seconds between the launch and the explosion may be enough for car come from nowher and get hit. as much as missing the target, which is unavoidable.

and a lot of fantasy land blood.

i would be astonished if you pass the psychometric tests for any army.

There are no psychological tests required for entrance into the US military.

The Israeli govt. must live up to highter standards of behaviour than a terrorist organisation, otherwise why should the rest of the world treat it as anything better?


Let me guess, higher standards...hmm.. You probably want them to fight with non-lethal weaponary...

The Israeli govt. must live up to highter standards of behaviour than a terrorist organisation, otherwise why should the rest of the world treat it as anything better?

they are in a war and trying to protect their citizens, and aiming specifically for terriorist hqs and areas, so some civilans get caught in the fire? it cant be helped.

There are no psychological tests required for entrance into the US military.

serious?

that explains a great deal.

-Man behind kid pulls out a gun, and shoots two Israeli soldiers, but the Israelis don't shoot back, because of the kid- yup, sounds good to me.

Israeli soldiers - in the military and accepting the risk of being shot.
Kid - a kid, not in the military and not accepting the risk of being shot.

Sounds better than the kid being shot.

serious?

that explains a great deal.

Yes, I am. And no, it doesn't explain anything.

Given a population of 100,000 Americans in one place, tell me how many are going to commit various crimes.

Come on, you can do the math. Pick any city - there's plenty of data.

You seem to be thinking that just because people are in the military, they will NEVER commit any crimes.

Soldiers are only a microcosm of the society they come from.

Mental illness is not a prerequisite for bad behavior.

The Israeli govt. must live up to highter standards of behaviour than a terrorist organisation, otherwise why should the rest of the world treat it as anything better?
we are in war .
we try to avoid civilians deaths while they use human shields.
sometimes accidents happened, and we apologize for that.

this is much much higher standarts of behaviour compare to the palastinians and to any other country in the world (and no other country was in that situation).
stop with your hipocracy.

Let me guess, higher standards...hmm.. You probably want them to fight with non-lethal weaponary...

and you probably want to nuke them all and let god sort them out.....making up stuff is fun isn't it?

we are in war .
we try to avoid civilians deaths while they use human shields.
sometimes accidents happened, and we apologize for that.

this is much much higher standarts of behaviour compare to the palastinians and to any other country in the world (and no other country was in that situation).
stop with your hipocracy.

How can you be at war? You refuse to accept Palestine is a state. How do you reconcile hitting buildings with missiles with civilian deaths being accidents. You shoot at a tower block then you will kill civilians, this is a fact.

The basic fact is that the Israel considers Palistinian live to be more expendable than its own soldiers otherwise it would stop the terrorists by sending in troops to arrest them rather than just shooting at cities from the air or from miles away and accepting that civilians will be killed.

My question is... how can one NOT hit civillians when going after terrorists that are using civillians to protect themselves? If Israel attacks, Palestinian civillians die with the terrorists. If Israel doesn't try and retaliate, those terrorists will be encouraged and redouble their efforts, leading to the deaths of a LOT of Israeli civillians. Either way, civillians will die... but at least the first scenario will also get rid of / discourage terrorists, unlike the second option.

It's only natural for a country to value it's own citizens above those of other nations... and so Israel chooses to attack the terrorists fully knowing that it will result in Palestinian civillian deaths... because to do otherwise would result in even more Israeli civillian deaths and the ultimate destruction of their nation due to escalating (and unopposed) terrorist attacks. Such escalations have happenend every time Israel has conceded anything... it's as if offers of compromise drive them to attack harder.

Israel really has no choice, given that it's been proven many times that the militant branches of Hamas simply do not listen to the governing branches of Hamas... assuming that either one actually wants anything other than extermination of Israel. Either way, though, civillian men, women, and children on both sides are caught in the middle and will get killed.

Edit: The same goes for the Syrian and Lebanese-based terrorists. Consessions seem to make them work harder, not stop.

No, I attack Israel for killing civilians. I never have, or will, defend the actions of Palistinian terrorists but I won't accept Israeli apoligists using 'they started it' as an excuse.
we don't.
we investigate any accidents to develop better tactics which had less harm to the palastinian populace while trying to keep our actions effective. sometimes those tactics are more dangerous to our soldiers but we still do it.
we held higher moral standarts than any other fighting army.
somehow, it isn't seem enough for you guys.

in the meantime, the terrorists take human sheilds, aim on israeli civilians and develope only weapons that may make more harm and damage.
they didn't get lousy condemention.

what is that if not hypocracy?

and you probably want to nuke them all and let god sort them out.....making up stuff is fun isn't it?


No, thats just barbaric. I am saying that Israelis have a right to protect themselves, and if a civilian dies, then its a tragic loss, but I'd rather have one dead child over 300 dead people from a suicide attack.

MIf Israel doesn't try and retaliate, those terrorists will be encouraged and redouble their efforts, leading to the deaths of a LOT of Israeli civillians.

I believe that's exactly what anyone who decries Israeli attacks on terrorists really wants - the deaths of Israeli civilians and the dissolution of Israel.

Heaven forfend that any terrorists would be prevented from killing anyone.

Let me say my views on this sh*t:

Before the Elections earlier this year the "Terrorist" Organizations like Hamas etc. and Israël had a cease fire, which lasted 18 months. No bombings and no attacks during that period, hell, Israël even retreated from the Gaza Strip!

Then the Palestinians, sick of the corruption and mismanagement by the Fatah Movement chose the Political Branch of Hamas, who formed a government.

From the first moment, Israël and the West haven't even given the Hamas Government one chance, while they were elected in fair and democratic elections.

Israel reacts that it won't deal with "Terrorists" and a few weeks ago even announced that Hamas memebers (even those who were elected!) weren't safe for elimination. I can imagine that would make certain guys in hamas or whatever organization nervous and resumed attacks with the Qassam rockets. Certain members even manage to kidnap an Israeli soldier. Not a Israeli civilian was harmed.

The reaction of Israël:"Let's bomb bridges, flatten houses and blow a powerplant to kingdom come! That will certainly solve the problem! Hey, what's this? They get angry? Why? We are soooo nice and we behave like good boys!"

Now Hezbollah takes two Soldiers hostage and also makes demands. The Israëli reaction? "Man, let's bomb Lebanon and discuss to occupy the country again! Let's teach them a lesson!"

I can see why a few people get upset and angry.

Like this guy said:

The Israeli govt. must live up to highter standards of behaviour than a terrorist organisation, otherwise why should the rest of the world treat it as anything better?

Thats all this is. The Lebanese gov't supports this terrorist group

yes? The same gov't that we supported up till yesterday because they kicked out Syria, wanted to modernize and "westernize?"

Israeli soldiers - in the military and accepting the risk of being shot.
Kid - a kid, not in the military and not accepting the risk of being shot.

Sounds better than the kid being shot.
so if palastinian terrorists will marsh into israel while kids walk in front of them, and they will kill any israeli civilian they will see, I guess you propose us do nothing until they will destroy israel?

yes? The same gov't that we supported up till yesterday because they kicked out Syria, wanted to modernize and "westernize?"


What has lebanon done to supress the actions of Hizbullah?

so if palastinian terrorists will marsh into israel while kids walk in front of them, and they will kill any israeli civilian they will see, I guess you propose us do nothing until they will destroy israel?

Yes. Doesn't that make perfect sense to you?

so if palastinian terrorists will marsh into israel while kids walk in front of them, and they will kill any israeli civilian they will see, I guess you propose us do nothing until they will destroy israel?

that wasn't the scenario I was given now was it?

and a lot of fantasy land blood.

i would be astonished if you pass the psychometric tests for any army.

I'm not joining the army. Never.

It's uncle sam's misguided children, foo. Get it straight.

I WILL do fine.

Lebanon has not made an official statement yet, unfortunately.

The problem with this whole thing is we don't know if it is actually "war."

Will we look back on it and remember it as an invasion of war?
Maybe.
Will we look back on it and remember it as a simple campaign?
Es possible.

It won't end like this, but Hezbollah is very influencial in Lebanon; bad for Israel.

But maybe the Lebanese will stop supporting Hezbollah when their houses are destroyed in battle, their crops burnt, their livelihoods destroyed and their families hurt or killed.

we don't.
we investigate any accidents to develop better tactics which had less harm to the palastinian populace while trying to keep our actions effective. sometimes those tactics are more dangerous to our soldiers but we still do it.
we held higher moral standarts than any other fighting army.
somehow, it isn't seem enough for you guys.

in the meantime, the terrorists take human sheilds, aim on israeli civilians and develope only weapons that may make more harm and damage.
they didn't get lousy condemention.

what is that if not hypocracy?

You guys have a martyr complex. I would condemn any military that acted as yours' does.

I don't get many chances to debate with Palestinians online though, not enough electricity in their cities to run pcs you see. ;)

What has lebanon done to supress the actions of Hizbullah?

Maybe it can't do that much about Hezbollah. It is still a very powerfull organization (both civilian and military). It's about the same RIght Wing Christain movement in America,: very powerfull, very influential (but not that bloody). I doubt even the US gov't can get rid of the Christian Right.

that wasn't the scenario I was given now was it?
If you say that Israelis should not shoot at people who are using human shields, it would be the next thing to happen.

Palestinians would walk out of Gaza in a mob in which children would be the vast majority, from within which terorrists would be shooting RPG rockets and their machineguns.

By your standards, the Israelis would not be allowed to shoot back.

You know the Palestinians would then win.

Don't be disingenuous.

How can you be at war? You refuse to accept Palestine is a state. How do you reconcile hitting buildings with missiles with civilian deaths being accidents. You shoot at a tower block then you will kill civilians, this is a fact.no the fact is we aren't aim crowdy buildings for one terrorists. we wait until he will get out and than shot him. sometimes the missle miss (accident).

The basic fact is that the Israel considers Palistinian live to be more expendable than its own soldiers otherwise it would stop the terrorists by sending in troops to arrest them rather than just shooting at cities from the air or from miles away and accepting that civilians will be killed.
we do it when we can, but you know that gun-fight in the middle of over-dense city will cost much more deaths of soldiers and civilians, right?

No, thats just barbaric. I am saying that Israelis have a right to protect themselves, and if a civilian dies, then its a tragic loss, but I'd rather have one dead child over 300 dead people from a suicide attack.

Thats where we differ then. I'd prefer my govt. doesn't kill other civilians to make me a little safer in my bed at night.

If you say that Israelis should not shoot at people who are using human shields, it would be the next thing to happen.

Palestinians would walk out of Gaza in a mob in which children would be the vast majority, from within which terorrists would be shooting RPG rockets and their machineguns.

By your standards, the Israelis would not be allowed to shoot back.

You know the Palestinians would then win.

Don't be disingenuous.

I doubt that would ever happen. Most of the Palestinians just want a normal life, together with Israel if necessary. I really doubt they would "walk out of Gaza in which Childeren would be the vast majority".

Maybe it can't do that much about Hezbollah. It is still a very powerfull organization (both civilian and military). It's about the same RIght Wing Christain movement in America,: very powerfull, very influential (but not that bloody). I doubt even the US gov't can get rid of the Christian Right.


Yes but I doubt the US has to worry about the Christian right carrying out attacks on other countries.

I doubt that would ever happen. Most of the Palestinians just want a normal life, together with Israel if necessary. I really doubt they would "walk out of Gaza in which Childeren would be the vast majority".
I guess that explains their current use of human shields, and all their textbooks (even the math ones) calling for the genocide of Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel by violence.

Yes but I doubt the US has to worry about the Christian right carrying out attacks on other countries.

Pat Robertson about Chavez:"We should attack venezuela and get rid of this commie bastard!"*not exact his wrods, but he meant this*

Pat Robertson about Chavez:"We should attack venezuela and get rid of this commie bastard!"*not exact his wrods, but he meant this*

Pat Robertson is not the US President, nor is he representative of "all" of the Christian right (let alone all of the "Christians").

He's a convenient living strawman.

Pat Robertson about Chavez:"We should attack venezuela and get rid of this commie bastard!"*not exact his wrods, but he meant this*


He said the US should assassinate him, a bit different from ACTUALLY ATTACKING.

that wasn't the scenario I was given now was it?you defientely said we shouldn't shot terrorists if the hidden between childs, even if they shot at us in the same time. it is the exactly same scenerio on larger scale.

I guess that explains their current use of human shields, and all their textbooks (even the math ones) calling for the genocide of Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel by violence.

Ahhh, because we diagree with the leaders then we should punish the whole community.

I like your world viewpoint.

Ahhh, because we diagree with the leaders then we should punish the whole community.

I like your world viewpoint.

They obviously voted en masse for the party that promised the destruction of Israel, and didn't vote for the party that made an agreement to recognize Israel.

That looks like a pretty big majority to me.

you defientely said we shouldn't shot terrorists if the hidden between childs, even if they shot at us in the same time. it is the exactly same scenerio on larger scale.

The Palestinians in the scenario I was given were firing on soldiers not civilians. BIG difference.

I guess that explains their current use of human shields, and all their textbooks (even the math ones) calling for the genocide of Jews and the destruction of the state of Israel by violence.

The last one is familiar to me (but note that Hamas announced a few eeks ago that they would drop this from their program). As for the schoolbooks, I doubt that would be true, I would like to see an example.

You guys have a martyr complex. I would condemn any military that acted as yours' does.system which used only wen there isn't other choice, after public protests.
you don't see the same in the other side, are you?

The last one is familiar to me (but note that Hamas announced a few eeks ago that they would drop this from their program). As for the schoolbooks, I doubt that would be true, I would like to see an example.

Actually, Hamas denied that they ever made such an agreement, and that it had only been discussed by someone not qualified to speak for Hamas.

The schoolbooks are a matter of history.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1307263/posts

Ahhh, because we diagree with the leaders then we should punish the whole community.

I like your world viewpoint.


The leaders have BRAINWASHED the people! They are telling the children that killing an Israeli will get them to the hereafter! These people are brainwashed, and they will not be convinced to change their mind. We must kill the leaders, and help them rebuild their community, in the right way.

They obviously voted en masse for the party that promised the destruction of Israel, and didn't vote for the party that made an agreement to recognize Israel.

That looks like a pretty big majority to me.

As I said before, the Palestinians mainly were sick of the corrupt fatah Government. And, as I said in my last post, Hamas has announced that they would be willing to recognize Israel.

He said the US should assassinate him, a bit different from ACTUALLY ATTACKING.

Ohhh, what a differance. Attacking a country or assasinating a head of state. In most cases that would mean war.

I doubt that would ever happen. Most of the Palestinians just want a normal life, together with Israel if necessary. I really doubt they would "walk out of Gaza in which Childeren would be the vast majority".
chosing terror organization as their leading party, they had unusual way to show it.

They obviously voted en masse for the party that promised the destruction of Israel, and didn't vote for the party that made an agreement to recognize Israel.

That looks like a pretty big majority to me.

500000 voted for him, 300000 voted against.

The Palestinians in the scenario I was given were firing on soldiers not civilians. BIG difference.
the terrorists who use human shields aim both soldiers and civilians. you make difference in place which it isn't exist.

Ohhh, what a differance. Attacking a country or assasinating a head of state. In most cases that would mean war.


The difference is that one group actually uses violence, while the other one asked for violence by a third party, and nothing ever happened.

the terrorists who use human shields aim both soldiers and civilians. you make difference in place which it isn't exist.

I have to go but I will pick this up tomorrow.

As I said before, the Palestinians mainly were sick of the corrupt fatah Government. And, as I said in my last post, Hamas has announced that they would be willing to recognize Israel.


They promptly denied ever having made that announcement.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/27/palestinians.israel.ap/index.html

I have to go but I will pick this up tomorrow.
yeah, it is let here too.

Well, I'll wait for more details first before saying much other than the movement of troops to any sovereign territory not yours without the host nation's permission is an invasion.

And as to how can they move there, more likely than not, it was because Lebanon can't really stop them short of declaring war, although that's a bit moot since Israel has already invaded them strictly speaking.

It's just like that time Israel bombed someplace in Lebanon on the same excuse. They got away with it because they had enough military might to force anything they want there.

Which is one reason why a nuclear Iran might be a good power check on Israel. I'm sure the usual crowd of "flatten Iran"ers will jump on this, but until Israel gets reined in by it's biggest supporters, this is the only way to make it toe the line.

You don't send armed forces into other countries without their permission unless you want a war. And if this keeps up, Israel would be begging for one on both knees.

So when hezzbolla attacks Israel from southern Lebenon and kidnaps two soldiers..an act of war..Israel has no right to respond ?

And your solution is to have israel and Iran lob nukes at each other .

Boy you are smart can I be your idol ?

So when hezzbolla attacks Israel from southern Lebenon and kidnaps two soldiers..an act of war..Israel has no right to respond ?

Legally no.

Did you see the British Army pour over the Northern/Republic of Ireland border every time the IRA bombed somewhere? No.

Thats where we differ then. I'd prefer my govt. doesn't kill other civilians to make me a little safer in my bed at night.


Then you're suicidal

Legally no.

Did you see the British Army pour over the Northern/Republic of Ireland border every time the IRA bombed somewhere? No.


Last time I checked the gov't of Ireland wasn't aiding and abetting the IRA terrorists. The gov't of Lebanon however, is aiding and abetting Hizballah. They are providing shelter for Hizballah and have taken no steps to curb their terrorist activities.

Legally no.

Did you see the British Army pour over the Northern/Republic of Ireland border every time the IRA bombed somewhere? No.


Thats funny Israel has publicly warned Lebenon and the rest of the world as to what they consider an act of war .

You say its not legal..I call bullshit..its the right to self defense , every nation has it . Show me what you read or whatever made you think its not legal .

If lebenon shows the ability or the effort to STOP terrorist from Invading Israel from their soil...then maybe ...they may not have to suffer having other counties be forced to do their job for them .
hamas wants to escalate istead of defuse the situation..so be it ..more hamas filled body bags...and I have absolutely NO sympathy for them . Or any country that harbors or supports them .
They could have just released the kidnapped soldier and that would have been the end of it..they didn't ..so show them no mercy . they will at least respect that .

Israel is the ONLY functional democracy in the Middle East, the only one. And, I have to allow some slack. When several nations that overpopulate and outgun you have stated, publicly, numerous times, that they have made it their driving goal to see you obliterated, and have attempted to do so time and again, at what point do you have to allow them some latitude to defend themselves?

When they withdraw from the territories they've occupied and tried to colonise for nearly four decades.


It won't stop until the Palestinians are made to feel subdued by Israel. When the Palestinians see that they can't destroy Israel, and any attempt to attack Israel leads to the immediate death of thousands of Palestinians and further encroachment on their "territories", they might decide to make peace and negotiate.

Yes, because killing thousands of the opposition made the Russians roll over for the Germans, and likewise the Poles, the Vietnamese for the Japanese, French and Americans....they'll resist until they are no more, I'd say, and they'd be right to. Why should they lie down for the US and its bullying proteges? Fuck them. Better to die on your hind legs than be the rent-boy of every crypto-imperialist with a gun.


We should forget the massacre of 1929 when blood libel (blaming Jews for fictitious murderous crimes) riots broke out killing over 200 people all over the country. This isn't something new people..

I'm fairly sure a british inquiry into those riots established it was caused by Arab fears about increasing settler immigration, unemployment, and the feeling they'd been shafted by the British over independence.


If the Palestinians are as peace-loving as you assume, perhaps they would have taken that as a goodwill gesture from the Israelis that they can and will pull out of the territories if guarteed security..

Bit hard to do that when the pullout leads to more building in the West Bank and around Arab east Jerusalem.


The IDF is clearly following the rules of war by denying them the use of such things...

Yet it refuses to apply the Geneva convention to the occupied territories, is in violation of international law by its occupation and by its settlement building. I'd say if what they do is legal, thats just coincidence.


The Palestinians wanted some 1,500 terrorists released from Israeli jails in return for the one Israeli soldier they held. Although that seems like an "equal" trade at first blush, releasing that many terrorists would only exacerbate the entire situation in the Middle East. I'm glad Isreal took another option....

They did ask for women and children, did they not? Or are you just looking for attention?
[
QUOTE=GreaterValinor]
and no one suggest that jordan will give some of her area to the palastinians.
double standarts, maybe?....[/QUOTE]

Jordan has ceded all rights to the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. That would strike me as more than sufficient.


sabra and shatila terrorists:
-haven't supported by israel.
-haven't trained nor acts on israeli area or with israeli aid.
-weren't israelis nor israeli-allied.
?....

Really? Who financed the christian militia in south lebanon? The pope?


I don't think they may help here. especially after we pullout until the last meter in lebanon and gaza strip and the UN the continious terror from those areas.
anyway, it will harm the soverignity of israel, and I hardly can see how they will help.?....

As the occupied territories are not inside Israels borders it has nothing to do with soverignty. It has far more to do with brutalising the population and building settlements.


GO IDF, Get some!.....

Preferably some more of what they were given this morning. Now they're bombing, like their american buddies. So perhaps they're not so gung ho when the odds are a bit more even.


the PLO ussually include the terrorists in their faked numbers.!.....


Like the 100 or so under 9......trained killers all......


have you noticed the part that unlike the terrorists, WE AREN'T AIM THE KIDS?.!.....

They just accidentally killed over 750 of them....For people who win wars, yez are crap shots....strange how the single bullet goes through the head a lot...sure if ye tried to do that ye'd miss I suppose...maybe them Arab childer attract bullets, with magnetism.....

Really? Who financed the christian militia in south lebanon? The pope?




Israel ...and if i recall they did nothing to stop it . ( the Masacre )

but you are just making a case for the continuation of the cycle of violence by both sides.

And you are wrong for doing so...the Palestinians are shooting themselves in the head every time a peace gets even close. Sorry but no more sympathy can I give. if they persist peace will come when most of them are dead.
thats just a fact ..the course they are on will get them nothing but dead jihadist and would be martyrs . israel is a FACT ..Palestinians cant move it no matter if they all tied a bomb belt around themselves and blew up on a signal.
By the time they realise its time they will have to import and make new Palestinians to populate the land .....or we can wait until the majority of the Middle East is a radio active hell hole along with parts of what used to be called Iran .

get used to filling up with corn oil .

Israel ...and if i recall they did nothing to stop it . ( the Masacre )

but you are just making a case for the continuation of the cycle of violence by both sides.

And you are wrong for doing so...the Palestinians are shooting themselves in the head every time a peace gets even close. Sorry but no more sympathy can I give. if they persist peace will come when most of them are dead.
thats just a fact ..the course they are on will get them nothing but dead jihadist and would be martyrs . israel is a FACT ..Palestinians cant move it no matter if they all tied a bomb belt around themselves and blew up on a signal.
By the time they realise its time they will have to import and make new Palestinians to populate the land .....or we can wait until the majority of the Middle East is a radio active hell hole along with parts of what used to be called Iran .

get used to filling up with corn oil .

You'll find that given a state of their own, the idea of (and indeed the drive to commit) such acts will rapidly pall to the vast majority, as will any great feeling towards 'destroying' Israel. They have the right to determine their own fate within their own territory.

And as for Palestinian use of violence - the US has blocked the peaceful methods of international sanctions and UN intervention. Is it any wonder they do as they do?

You'll find that given a state of their own, the idea of (and indeed the drive to commit) such acts will rapidly pall to the vast majority, as will any great feeling towards 'destroying' Israel. They have the right to determine their own fate within their own territory.

And as for Palestinian use of violence - the US has blocked the peaceful methods of international sanctions and UN intervention. Is it any wonder they do as they do?


Its totally beyond wonder they do what they do . they FINALLY get Israel out of the west bank and Gaza and show some progress of forming a Palestinian State ...so they Elect hamas...and hamas refuses to acknowlage Israels right to exist...THEN they go on a terror spree from the very soil they just had Israel leave BY NEGOTIATON...so now they Are reoccupied and are dragging Lebennon into the shit hole ...


and you expect any sane person to show them sympathy and you wonder why the US supports Israel ?

They are totally insane .:rolleyes:

Last time I checked the gov't of Ireland wasn't aiding and abetting the IRA terrorists.
By your definiton of 'aiding and abetting', the above and the below do not match correctly.....

They are providing shelter for Hizballah and have taken no steps to curb their terrorist activities.
Both of which claims could very well have been levelled by the British Army if necessary.

You say its not legal..I call bullshit..its the right to self defense , every nation has it . Show me what you read or whatever made you think its not legal .
The fact that Hezb'allah are not the government (legitimate or no) of Lebanon, nor do they represent Lebanon internationally or are recognised as such.

They are seperate entities. A different matter from the Occupied Territories with Hamas.

Again, I refer you to the issue of Northern Ireland, the IRA and the distinct lack of British troops invading into a bordering sovereign country- purely because the group is (partially) located there.

Its totally beyond wonder they do what they do . they FINALLY get Israel out of the west bank and Gaza and show some progress of forming a Palestinian State ...so they Elect hamas...and hamas refuses to acknowlage Israels right to exist...THEN they go on a terror spree from the very soil they just had Israel leave BY NEGOTIATON...so now they Are reoccupied and are dragging Lebennon into the shit hole ...


and you expect any sane person to show them sympathy and you wonder why the US supports Israel ?

They are totally insane .:rolleyes:

Sorry, when did that happen exactly? And what do you mean by get 'Israel' out of the West Bank?

By your definiton of 'aiding and abetting', the above and the below do not match correctly.....


Both of which claims could very well have been levelled by the British Army if necessary.


The fact that Hezb'allah are not the government (legitimate or no) of Lebanon, nor do they represent Lebanon internationally or are recognised as such.

They are seperate entities. A different matter from the Occupied Territories with Hamas.

Again, I refer you to the issue of Northern Ireland, the IRA and the distinct lack of British troops invading into a bordering sovereign country- purely because the group is (partially) located there.

It matters not a wit ..if you cannot protect your own soil from those that are invading the country next door you have no RIGHT WHAT SO EVER to refuse that country the right to protect itself . And that country has every right to do what you cannot . and I guess the para's and other British special troops that went where ever they felt like in ireland do not count ? the British used the force THEY deemed needed to do what the BRITISH wanted to do . And at least the Irish made a bit of a show at chasing the murderers around .

what has Lebenon done but give them the keys to the house .

Sorry, when did that happen exactly? And what do you mean by get 'Israel' out of the West Bank?


here ya go phychoweasle.....;)


First Intifada, Mutual Recognition
1987 - First Palestinian intifada, or "shaking off," begins in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians hurls insults, stones, and Molotov cocktails at Israeli forces, boycott Israeli goods, and call general strikes. Israeli forces quell demonstrations with clubs, tear gas, rubber bullets, plastic bullets, and, sometimes, live ammunition. The popular uprising shifts attention away from the PLO in Tunisia and toward the West Bank and Gaza Strip. New Islamist groups such as Hamas gain influence.

1993 - After secret negotiations at Oslo, Norway, Israel and the PLO sign a mutual recognition agreement, with the PLO recognizing Israel's right to exist and Israel recognizing the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. Israel promises to withdraw from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank city of Jericho and to allow limited Palestinian self-rule. The agreement sets a five-year deadline for additional withdrawals and for a "final-status" agreement on issues such as borders, Jewish settlements, the return of Palestinian refugees, Palestinian statehood, and the status of Jerusalem.

1994 - A Jewish settler opens fire with an assault rifle inside a Hebron mosque. Hamas begins suicide bombings. Undeterred, Israel and the PLO implement the Oslo agreement. PLO leader Yasser Arafat comes to Gaza to head the new Palestinian Authority. Jordan makes peace with Israel. At a mosque in South Africa, however, Arafat likens the Oslo agreement to a 628 A.D. pact made by Muhammad with the Quraish tribe, a purely tactical move abrogated two years later.

Withdrawals, More Bombings, Israeli Withdrawal, Peace Talks Fail
1995 - Israel and the Palestinian Authority agree on a detailed plan for additional withdrawals from the West Bank, with most cities going over to Palestinian control but most land remaining in Israeli hands. Infuriated by the surrender of any land, a Jewish radical assassinates Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

1996 - Hamas steps up suicide bombings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Israeli voters turn to right-wing Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu, who demands "peace with security."

1997 - Israel withdraws from the West Bank city of Hebron. Netanyahu lifts a freeze on new Jewish settlements and begins construction of Jewish neighborhoods in disputed parts of Jerusalem. Arafat suspends security cooperation with Israel and releases Hamas militants from Palestinian jails.

1998 - Israel and the Palestinian Authority agree to more withdrawals, to occur in two stages. Israel completes the first stage but suspends the second, accusing Arafat of failing to honor security commitments.

1999 - Israeli voters return the Labor Party to power. New Prime Minister Ehud Barak promises to deliver a final peace settlement with the Palestinians. New Israeli withdrawals, completed the following year, leave the Palestinian Authority with direct or partial control of 41 percent of the West Bank and 65 percent of the Gaza Strip.

2000 - Final-status peace negotiations at Camp David end without agreement. After the failed talks, Likud opposition leader Ariel Sharon visits Muslim holy sites on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem accompanied by hundreds of armed guards. A second, more violent intifada erupts.

2001 - All attempts to halt the escalating violence and restart peace negotiations fail. In an early election, Israeli voters reject Barak and turn to Ariel Sharon to restore security. Sharon orders reprisal attacks in Palestinian-controlled territories.

2002 - Successive suicide bombings begin on Passover. In response, Israel reoccupies most of the West Bank and begins mass arrests of suspected militants.



you think you can get from 2002 until today or do you need more help ?



http://www.uliveandlearn.com/lessons/lesson.cfm?lesid=379&pg=1

It matters not a wit ..if you cannot protect your own soil from those that are invading the country next door you have no RIGHT WHAT SO EVER to refuse that country the right to protect itself .
Actions of a terrorist group =/= an 'invasion' from a neighbouring state. An invasion would be from the Lebanese themselves, not a seperate and disconnected group.

and I guess the para's and other British special troops that went where ever they felt like in ireland do not count ?
That's news to me.

Could you enlighten me as to the unfettered movements of the British Para's and Special Forces throughout the Republic of Ireland? A link or source will suffice.

what has Lebenon done but give them the keys to the house .

No, I believe Hezb'allah have 'given them the keys to the house'.
Hezb'allah =/= Lebanon.

here ya go phychoweasle.....;)

Mature.

No Ultra, I'm asking you what you meant when you said Israel?

Did you mean the IDF leaving the West Bank (WB)?
Did you mean the PA gaining full sovereign control in the WB?
Did you mean Israeli settlers leaving?
Did you mean the illegal settlements being earmarked for destruction?

You weren't too clear when you said ' when they finally got Israel out of the West Bank'