NationStates Jolt Archive

I think it can be said that many guys prefer bitchy women over girls who treat them like kings as well. I think has something to do with the appearance of self-confidence that draws an attraction to both genders.

There's a difference between being a "good guy" and a guy who would rather allow himself to be walked upon than stand up for himself. Unfortunately there's a thin line between having self-confidence and being an outright jerk. It can be hard to tell the difference. While I won't tolerate an outright a**hole, I am attracted to guys who are somewhat dominant. Of course he'd have to be pretty dominating to top me. (Hmmm.. I just realized that could be misconstrued. Or not.)
Doing you a favor and ignoring the innuendo;):
Psst! We've already moved to Phase Spam. You don't need to post on-topic.:p

Doing you a favor and ignoring the innuendo;):
Psst! We've already moved to Phase Spam. You don't need to post on-topic.:p

Darnit! I'm always trying to catch up! I'll chalk it down to a delayed reaction. Spam on!

Darnit! I'm always trying to catch up! I'll chalk it down to a delayed reaction. Spam on!
LOL Okay. Feel free to join the spam if you like. It may become interesting at some point. Not until after I leave, but yeah, sometime.;)

Why do good guys finish last?Good question.. I dont know.. (I dont care)

Me? I Finish when I Finish.. I am done when I am done.. etc

Really, when its about sex.. I dont ask myself too many questions..

You know, it could be because these so-called good guys are fat and unattractive. From my experience the good guys who are considered handsome do quite well for themselves.

Forgive me, but that is just about one of the funniest things I've ever read.

I'm glad I could make your day, even if it's because you completely misinterpreted what I said.

What I was trying to say (and obviously failing to say) is that I had mistakenly assumed that was what you were doing.

Sensitive?

No, I don't believe in "female supremacism." I believe in expecting grown men and women to act like adults.

Don't you understand that this is how adults act? They whine when they don't get their way, and they blame everyone but themselves. It's called "growing up".

I wish I were being sarcastic, but that's how people seem to act. I'm as annoyed by it as much as you are, but there's no point whining about how people are whining.

If a man doesn't like manipulative, passive-aggressive, self-centered women, then HE SHOULDN'T DATE THEM. If a guy chooses to associate with stupid women, he gives up the right to bitch when those women act stupid.

Isn't the point of dating people to find these things out about people? How the HELL can you figure out if someone is like that before you date them? (If we assume the purpose of dating is to get to know someone.)

By trying to get to know people, he gives up the right to complain that the people he's gotten to know are assholes?

Or is dating supposed to just be the fast track to sex and has nothing to do with getting to know someone?

I've given women the same damn spiel on other threads, but this thread is about guys so I give the guys my attention.

Fair enough. I'll take you on your word that this isn't just needless man bashing, and that you're a nondiscriminatory basher. ;)

(Before you take offense, because I know how sensitive you are, I'm not really even saying you're bashing anyone, and am just trying to make a joke.)

The fuck I have. Read more carefully.

I've read as carefully as I know how, and that's how you've come off to me. If this is a problem with my reading comprehension, I suppose that makes it my problem. If it's a problem with you clearly articulating your message, I guess it's yours. I can't really say which of us is to blame for the miscommunication. Let's just try to resolve our misunderstandings rather than try to assign blame, since neither one of us is going to accept it without a fight.

I have no problem with somebody wanting to get laid. I want to get laid. I wouldn't consider dating a person who doesn't want to get laid.

What I have a problem with is "nice guys" who seem to think that they DESERVE to get laid just because they treat women with respect. I have a problem with "nice guys" who feel entitled to get a girlfriend just because they're kind and thoughtful. I have a problem with ANYBODY who thinks they deserve a cookie (or a pussy) for acting in the manner that should be expected of EVERYBODY.

The trouble is that it isn't "expected of EVERYBODY". When negative behavior is reinforced and positive behavior is not, then it should be assumed that what is really expected is the negative behavior. Do you not understand the idea behind reinforcement and classical conditioning? If you want a behavior to occur, reinforce it. It isn't about what anyone "deserves" it's about which behaviors you want to be more prevalent.

There are lots of nice people in the world who don't get laid, or don't get married, or never find The One. It doesn't mean they aren't nice, and it also doesn't mean that all women (or all men) are evil, it just means that finding a suitable mate is a complicated process that doesn't always end happily for everybody.

I'll admit to my own status as a social invalid. I can't play the manipulation games the world around me seems to run on.

You're right that it's a complicated process, and too complicated for me to master. It isn't that everyone's evil. It's that I am unable to grasp the rules of the game, and refuse to cheat my way through it.

I'm glad to hear that "too bad, quit whining" is the suitable response to such concerns.

No one? Ever? You need to get out more.

Ever hear of an exaduration that wasn't meant as literal truth in the first place? Sometimes these things are used for emphasis, you know.

There are plenty of guys who use the strategy of being "one of the girls" in order to try to manipulate women into sex. Lately, it seems like there are more of this sort than there are of the pub-crawling sleazeballs.

But why do this if every steriotype and personal narrative suggests that this is destined to be doomed to failure? Are you suggesting that all "nice guys" are just the incompotent psudorapists?

Of course, there are also plenty of guys who are genuine friends, and who hang out with girls because those girls are fun and interesting people.

The point is that if you're trying to manipulate women into sex, you aren't going to get yourself relegated to the "just friends" category and then stay there. You're going to look elsewhere, since "this cold bitch won't put out".

I think it's plenty unscrupulous to sit around pretending to be a girl's friend when all you really want is to get her to go out with you. I think it's far more slimey to listen to a girl's problems and then turn around and insult her for sharing her feelings with you. I think it's downright pathetic to insist that all girls like jerks just because they won't go out with YOU, especially when you're acting like a prize jerk the whole time.

I'll thank you to tone down your use of the second person when you're quoting me and addressing "nice guys". I understand that you aren't specifically targeting me with your "you're acting like a prize jerk" commentary, but it is still inflamatory, and it would be easier to sort through what you mean if you didn't use the second person when reffering to someone other than the person you're quoting.

That said, my point wasn't about how unscrupulous such hypothetical behavior is, but rather about how self-defeating it would be to addopt a strategy known to be ineffective. If all a manipuluator wants is to get into a girl's pants, wouldn't it make sense to use a strategy that is known to work rather than one known for resulting in failure after failure?

People who steal things will often have a pile of money. Murderers often profit from killing somebody. Hell, a rapist is getting laid, isn't he?

So we should stop crying foul when thiefs and murders who don't play by the rules come out ahead? Got you.

If you want to be the kind of person who does rotten things to get your way, go right ahead. You won't be the first. Just don't expect anybody to buy your bullshit if you try to pretend you're a "nice guy" while you're stabbing them in the back.

If you are willing to sell out your principles just so you can get women to go out with you, then you've pretty much said all that needs to be said about how "nice" you really are.

Nice, ignore the point entirely and make this all about "me". I can see why I get so upset when reading your stuff.

"Punished"? So, it's "punishment" whenever a guy doesn't get sex on demand?

It's a punishment when a behavior you're claiming to be positive actually turns out to be negatively correlated with a person's success. You're trying really hard to make me out to be something I'm not, much like you accused me of doing in the first part of your post.

Quit being such a Communist about pussy. You are not entitled to have pussy distributed to you according to your need. Being nice does not entitle you to have sex. If a girl decides she doesn't want to have sex with you, this does not qualify as "punishment" because you aren't entitled to her body in the first place. She's not taking away something that is owed to you, she's simply choosing not to share HER body and HER life with you.

You're right of course. A girl is entitled to chose any man she wants to not have sex with. Being nice doesn't make one more entitled than being a complete jackass. The simple fact that it doesn't means that this supposed "minimum standard" you keep blathering on about doesn't apply to sex. If it did, the jackasses wouldn't be getting laid at all, much less in greater numbers than the people who meet this "minimum standard".

There are plenty of reasons why somebody might simply not want to have sex with you, even if you are a very nice, intelligent, fun, attractive person. There are a ton of nice, intelligent, fun, attractive people in my life, and I sure as hell don't go around fucking all of them. Am I "punishing" all of them by deciding that I'd rather not fuck every fun and interesting person I meet?

You aren't exactly helping matters if you don't demand that everyone you are fucking meet this imaginary "minumum standard". If you do, you clealy aren't part of the problem I'm addressing, so stop taking my statements to be about you.

Chance for what?

You see? Men who want to call themselves nice guys aren't allowed to be after sex.

It's true, men who are sneaky and dishonest and cruel will have a much better chance of getting together with the kind of woman who is attracted to sneak, dishonest, cruel men. Is that the kind of woman you want? Or are you just willing to settle for any woman at all, so you'll do anything that increases your chances of getting something warm and female?

You can't really be that stupid. I've read your stuff in other threads. I know you're not an idiot.

The point of being sneaky and dishonest is that you can pretend to meet a woman's standards even when you don't. If a woman is after "a nice guy" then the sneaky, dishonest, cruel guy will lie and make himself seem nice to get into the woman's pants, then beat her once he's got what he wants.

You're saying it's the woman's fault and that she must like that type of man if he tricks her into it? I thought you were against this sort of behavior.

Men who are smart, honorable, respectful, and kind are much more likely to get with smart, honorable, respectful, kind women. If that's the kind of woman you want, then being a jackass isn't gonna increase your chances.

And you base this on what? Neither side here has any statistical evidence, and all the anecdotal evidence is on the side of "nice guys finish last". If you have some real reason to believe this (other than a hopeless faith in the just nature of the universe), then I'd really like to hear it.

Again, you need to get out more. Sure, you can get cheap and easy fucks by being a cheap and easy guy. If that's all you want, go for it. But if you want a meaningful, loving, healthy relationship, you might need to come to terms with the fact that you won't get it by acting like a total prick.

Because I can see by your reaction to my stories that you consider me to be acting like a total prick. :rolleyes:

Again, please be more careful using the second person after you've finished quoting me.

Do you think guys who throw around slimey pickup lines are having healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships? From personal experience, let me tell you: they're not. They may be having some great sex, sure, and they may be perfectly happy with that, but you ain't gonna have a deep relationship with a girl who gets turned on by "Hey baby, what's your sign?"

And a nice guy can't be interested in great sex? All he can be interested in is a healthy relationship. Great sex is just something slimey pricks want and deserve?

Courtesy isn't necessarily dishonest. I agree that it's best to let people down cleanly, but you need to realize that plenty of girls are still working out how to do this without being needlessly hurtful. They're not being dishonest, they're trying to spare your feelings. Cut them some freaking slack.

Because of course when this happened to me I didn't right? I mean you said yourself how unfair I was being, right? Do you even listen to yourself?

"This behavior must stop," huh. Sorry, but Womankind isn't going to tailor its collective behavior for your convenience. There are plenty of guys who give women the exact opposite feedback, and tell them that they're bitches if they make a clean break.

And by throwing my voice on the other side of that arguement is harmful how? I want to see a change, but you think I should sit back and let those guys give women what I see as bad advice unchallenged?

If you want to see an overhaul in break-up procedures, or if you want to see a totally different dynamic in how people "let each other down," then you're going to have to do more than just stamp your little foot and command women to change. Their behavior does not exist in a vaccuum; it is shaped by the responses they get from all the men and women in their lives.

And I suppose that telling people how hurtful the current system is and advancing a constructive alternative is not something I should do if I want this change? What exactly should I do besides this "stamping my little foot and sommanding women to change"? Get involved with as many women as possible and initiate break ups to demonstrate how much better this is?

In case you missed the subtext, my point was to offer my opinion on what "less hurtful" really means in terms of a break up, not demanding womankind bend to my will as "MAN". You may not agree with my opinion, but where the hell do you get of belittling my views simply because they are different from yours?

Wow, and look how "nice" you are! No worrying about hurting somebody's feelings! Be "brutally honest," as opposed to just honest!

So nice. So very, very nice.

People who are too worried about hurting the other person's feelings are likely to beat around the bush and hurt them more in the long run. If you don't like someone that way, TELL THEM and TELL THEM WHY if you happen to know yourself. Even if that means their feelings will be hurt, because at least then they will be able to get over it rather than spend that eternity on "where did I go wrong?"

Perhaps you are confusing genuinely nice guys with "Nice Guys(tm)." You're right, a genuinely nice guy will fall for a woman because he has gotten to know her and has fallen for the person that she really is. However, "Nice Guys(tm)," as seen throughout this thread, don't have a single female friend that they're not trying to hook up with. They're after GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS!!! They want to know how to make "women" like them, which pretty much proves that they aren't even slightly interested in knowing anything about INDIVIDUAL women. They just want A WOMAN. That's their problem, and that's what I've been chewing them out for. They're not actually nice guys...they're "Nice Guys." The scare quotes are there for a reason.

I agree that there's a difference, and I think you're the one missing the point. I'm not here to give "Nice Guys" advice. They're not worth advising. My point is to speak on the behalf of real nice guys who have the distinct impression that they aren't going to advance in life or love because there's some sleaze ball who is willing to lie and cheat his way to the front of the line. I don't care about these "Nice Guys" you seem to be stuck on. My concern is the people who really are nice but are trapped by an unfair system.

(Oh there I go whinig again, right? See, I don't need you to point it out for me.)

Total and complete 100% bullshit. If the girl actually reciprocates your feelings, being in the "friend" category won't stop her from wanting to date you.

Speaking from experience? Have you ever had this transition from "friend" to "something more" work? If you have, I'd like to hear about it. If not, then I see no reason to ammend my thinking.

What's really going on is that she doesn't see you as more than a "friend" because she isn't attracted to you that way. Don't bullshit about how you made this horrible mistake of being friends with her, and that's why your chances got ruined...just come to terms with the fact that this particular girl doesn't want to be your girlfriend, even though she likes you very much as a friend.

So you're saying the steriotypical "I don't want to ruin our friendship" answer is just more bullshit women use to get away with not saying "I don't want to be in a romantic relationship with you"? And you think my suggestion for brutal honesty is cruel?

If you want guys to stop believing this "friendship with potential romantic interests is a mistake" then women should really stop giving the "I don't want to ruin our friendship" excuse. It's a two way street, dig?

Are you a girl? Didn't think so. Let me set you straight.

Nope, please, enlighten me oh oracle of womanlyness.

If a girl wants you, if she's attracted to you, if she is interested in having a romantic relationship with you, then she's gonna go for it just as much as you would go for it. The problem that you, and many other guys, seem to have is that you don't want to admit to yourself that SHE JUST DOESN'T LIKE YOU THAT WAY.

Or could it be that we are TOLD that this is the reason we aren't getting anywhere?

You like to tell yourself, "If only I hadn't made friends with her! Then I might have a chance!" But the reality is that your chances with her are as good as they possibly could be, because you DID take the time to become her friend, and she simply isn't interested in you. It sucks, but sometimes that happens. She's just not feeling it.

Sometimes? Again, have you ever experienced a transition from a truly platonic relationship to a romantic relationship work? If not, you're just talking either bullshit or deliberate misinformation and propoganda.

Guys have been trying this "Nice Guy(tm)" bullshit for as long as I can remember, and smart women have been laughing about it in the lockerrooms and bathrooms for all that time. It's transparent, it's old, and it's lamer than a one-legged duck. Change your strategy.

And there it is. All men are assholes, and the ones "pretending" to be nice are the worst of a bad lot. The ones who act like assholes are at least being honest. That's why nice guys finish last. In this twisted worldview, the assholes are the lesser of two evils.

It all makes sense now.

Sure you can. Same as you can tell if one of your mates is fucking you over. It may take a little while to catch on (because some people are pretty good at being bad), but once you realize it you have to stick up for yourself. Stop trying to date women who treat you like crap.

Again, how can you know this before you date them? You say this like it should be obvious, but the reality is that it is dificult to make that determination.

Wrong. The overwhelming majority of people, male and female, are not manipulative or evil or nasty or anything of the sort. If YOU happen to surround yourself with manipulative, evil, nasty people (male or female) then that is a problem with YOU. You need to take a good long look at why you are attracted to manipulative women. You need to examine why you choose to be friends with manipulative people. You need to stop blaming other people for mistakes that you are making.

Again, you ignore my point to try to make a personal attack.

There wouldn't be this perception of women as manipulative bitches if it weren't true at least some of the time. (Unless instead all men are whiney babies who can't handle that they are losers and don't deserve a fulfilling sex life.) The point isn't that most women are like this, it's that they are commonly encountered. This is because they are the ones playing this "dating game".

If that's your goal, then why are you pretending to be "nice"? And, if it's not your goal, then why the fuck do you care what other people do? Do you want to have sex with the kind of people who lie and cheat to get sex?

Again, why the hell do you assume I'm talking about me? I'm too disgusted with the entire dating scene to invove myself at all. My point was that these being the rules of the "dating game" it's only natural that women of the type I previously talked about would be encountered more often during dating and would be among the most successful players.

If you want to date the kind of woman who acts this way, then that is your business, but don't come crying to me about how crappy women treat you. You could just as easily choose to have some standards.

That's my problem. Too many standards. Priced myself right out of the game. I personally want no part in this corrupt system. I'd rather die alone.

Wah wah wah. Boo hoo hoo.

I'm perfectly capable of pointing out when I'm whining myself thank you very much. In this case, my point was that the game favors the manipulators, and that it's best to abandon the game and go play something else.

If you want to sleep with people who are mean, or lying, or are stupid enough to fall for mean lying jackasses, then you go right ahead. Just quit crying when you end up being in relationships with mean, lying, stupid people. You chose to be with them.

The trouble is the perception that it's them or no one. It's the mean lying people who impose themselves on our notice and keep us occupied before we see through their perceptions while our soulmates are passing us by or are relegated to the purgetory of "just friends".

(Oh and: Whaaa. I'm whining that life's hard! Whaa.)

GOOD. That's the whole point. You understand that sometimes there just isn't the chemistry. She's not a bitch, she's not manipulating you, she just doesn't dig you that way.

Well, guess what? That's how it is most of the time.

Interesting, you've done everything you could to paint me as an ignorant jackass, and when the personal story comes up, I seem to have had the insight to see things "correctly". This either means you've misinterpreted my modivations up until this point, or I'm lying about my story. I think you can guess which option I believe in.

The fact is, plenty of guys prefer when girls use that approach. You don't; that's fine. But it's not some kind of devious tactic on the part of the girl, it's an honest effort to spare the feelings of somebody she cares about. She wasn't "fooling herself," she was making the best guess she could based on the information she had.

So after years of friendship, all she can go off is the "steriotypical guy" and that's "the best guess she could based on the information she had"? Aren't you the one suggesting we get to know one another as individuals rather than demographics?

Sounds like you could have avoided the situation in the first place, if you had "forced her hand" at the very beginning. So both of you fucked up in your own ways. Everybody makes mistakes.

I believe I did say I acted like an idiot, didn't I? Why do you think you're pointing out something I didn't already know?

If you're trying to identify women by their appearance, that's your first big mistake. I know this may sound shitty to you, but you're gonna have to actually talk to women sometimes.

And once I do, I can't whine about being mistreated, right? After all, I'm clearly attracted to bitches if I pursue a relationship with one, even if I didn't know that about them at the time.

Um. Talk to them. Get to know them. Hell, try ASKING THEM. It's not hard. I've been dating women for years, and I'm not that bright, so if I can do it I'm sure you can too.

It's amazing you can have such conficence in my ability to manage considering how idiotic and shallow you seem to think I am.

You, like everyone else leave out unspoken subtlties everywhere. One is this: There's no way to know if a person's ultimately going to like you or not before you get to know them. If we relied on "chemistry" (which I've never seen a reasonable definition of) exclusively then only the "love at first sight" crowd would ever get anywhere. That's rare, and the rest of us need other tactics.

If you can't see the use in sound advice, there's not much I can do for you.

Did you miss the "on the surface" part of that? It isn't sound advice. It just looks that way if you don't think about it too hard.

He doesn't. Plenty of women will make the first move.

Also, realize that women who make the first move may not always make a move ON YOU. If you want to be the one who gets moves put on you, then you're going to have to wait for them to come to you. You also may find that the girls you are interested in will not make moves on you; this is often because they are not interested in you.

In other words, suck it up and deal with the lousy hand you've been dealt. Never gotten that advice before :rolleyes:

I don't know why people persist in pretending like these standards still exist. Everywhere I've gone, I've heard people bitch about how "men are supposed to make the first move," yet IN THESE SAME PLACES you will see plenty of women making the first move. It's like people just don't see what's right in front of their faces.

Well, it could be that our culture continues to send these messages that we continue to beleive them. How many times in THIS THREAD have we seen MEN advised that they should "be more confident". This means "make a move", and it reflects the cultural idea that men are supposed to be making moves and women are supposed to be accepting or rejecting based on what they're offered. It doesn't reflect well on either gender that people are still stuck in these roles, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to your fairy tale about how "this behavior ended years ago except in the minds of losers like you". It's still with us, and even if it isn't an absolute 100% rule, it is still a majority opinion, regardless of what an elightened feminist like you happens to believe about his/her own relationships.

Look, maybe women don't make moves ON YOU. Or maybe they are making moves on you, and you just aren't picking up on it because you're too busy complaining about how women never make the first move. Or maybe you don't like the girls who are putting moves on you, because they aren't the girls you want to date.
Or maybe they're waiting for me to make a move, but since I'm too shy or pecimistic to think I have a chance they end up giving up on me as not interested and they go with the next guy who does "make a move".

Oh and whaa!

Do you still need to point out the whining and self-pity, or have I done a good enough job for you?

Here is my 2 cents. Good guys finish last because it is rude to finish before the woman has attained hers. Aren't Gentleman supposed to insist that ladies get served first??

Well, well, well, that was interesting...

I went to work today, for a six hour shift delivering pizzas. Much to my surprise, the girl in question was working tonight (usually we only work together on Wednesdays, and then only us two - used to be my favourite day of the week).

When I saw her, I recalled the IW-Framework, and was able to say "She doesn't give a shit about you, don't worry about it." Easier said than done of course, but she made it easy tonight.

Because guess what: I was Snobbed.

She spoke precisely three sentences to me: "Can you get me that Pizza there, please?", "Thanks for that." and "Do you want some gum?"

The rest of the night, she pretty much ignored me. Weird.

Now, maybe some of you awesome experts can tell me why. Strictly speaking, I should be happy. After all, I'm not after being her asexual neutrum of a friend. But it still bothered me a little bit.

Now, either she caught wind of something, which is unlikely. As I posted before, if she hadn't learned of my intentions already she never will.
Or, I may have come across more rude than I meant to when she was talking to me about her boyfriend last week. I recall being asked "Why are you in such a bad mood?" then (I was thinking of a pretty long and pretty explicit answer then, but kept it to myself), so maybe I offended her.

Oh, well. I can live with it. Might just be a little awkward on next Wednesday. :p

You know, it could be because these so-called good guys are fat and unattractive. From my experience the good guys who are considered handsome do quite well for themselves.

Oooohh, my god, someone thinks like me :kiss:

Well, well, well, that was interesting...

I went to work today, for a six hour shift delivering pizzas. Much to my surprise, the girl in question was working tonight (usually we only work together on Wednesdays, and then only us two - used to be my favourite day of the week).

When I saw her, I recalled the IW-Framework, and was able to say "She doesn't give a shit about you, don't worry about it." Easier said than done of course, but she made it easy tonight.

Because guess what: I was Snobbed.

She spoke precisely three sentences to me: "Can you get me that Pizza there, please?", "Thanks for that." and "Do you want some gum?"

The rest of the night, she pretty much ignored me. Weird.

Now, maybe some of you awesome experts can tell me why. Strictly speaking, I should be happy. After all, I'm not after being her asexual neutrum of a friend. But it still bothered me a little bit.

Now, either she caught wind of something, which is unlikely. As I posted before, if she hadn't learned of my intentions already she never will.
Or, I may have come across more rude than I meant to when she was talking to me about her boyfriend last week. I recall being asked "Why are you in such a bad mood?" then (I was thinking of a pretty long and pretty explicit answer then, but kept it to myself), so maybe I offended her.

Oh, well. I can live with it. Might just be a little awkward on next Wednesday. :p
Okay, the bolded part? I thought we had agreed that she had caught wind of something? Wait, let me dig out my post... voilà (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11213497&postcount=138) (man this took forever. This thread is really hard to navigate).


So, about the snubbing/ignoring.

Make up your mind. You hated it when she went on like you're still just friends, and now you hate it when she got the hint (i.e. your "bad mood") and stopped doing that.

Now, "make up your mind" is obviously easier said than done, because you're not likely to happily choose any option other than being with her, nevermind that this is out of the question.

It's just... what do you expect her to do? Like, seriously? If she's "normally nice", that's too nice, because you hate being just a friend (which I understand) and don't want to be treated as one when you'd much rather be treated as a boyfriend. If she's reserved, she's "snubbing" you, because while you hate being treated as a friend, it sucks even more to be treated as even less.

Give her a break. Probably there is a better way for her to be dealing with this, and maybe somebody will come here and point it out, but honestly? I don't think I know what it is.

And as much as it sucks (and boy does it ever suck) don't make your getting over her dependent on her. You're just going to make yourself miserable.

Oh, and if you manage to do that, please let me know how, will ya? :p

Oh, and if you manage to do that, please let me know how, will ya? :p
Oh, I'll manage. I just gotta repeat "She's the pimp, I'm the whore, she's the pimp, I'm the whore..." to myself. :D

As silly as the ladder thing is, it offers you a clear structure in your head, neat little boxes you can fit the things that happen into. With her it'll still be difficult, but I don't think I'll ever get into the same situation with another girl ever again.

As silly as the ladder thing is, it offers you a clear structure in your head, neat little boxes you can fit the things that happen into. Hmm, maybe that's why the despiccable thing is such a success with guys. :p

Because you suck. I wouldn't go out with you. Would you go out with you? Girls quite often opt for the arsehole because they are more often the ones with nuts.

How charming you are. I wouldn't go out with you. Even if you suck.:upyours:

Um, have we exactly defined what a 'nice guy' is? I mean, I'd consider the people I hang out with to be 'nice guys,' but I'm sure some of the things we do or say makes us assholes as well.

I know I've been called an asshole many a time for sticking to my beliefs, does that mean I'm really an asshole from an outsiders perspective - or merely an asshole in that specific situation, to that specific person/group?


So, ultimately, my question is: What makes someone a 'nice guy?'

Um, have we exactly defined what a 'nice guy' is? I mean, I'd consider the people I hang out with to be 'nice guys,' but I'm sure some of the things we do or say makes us assholes as well.

I know I've been called an asshole many a time for sticking to my beliefs, does that mean I'm really an asshole from an outsiders perspective - or merely an asshole in that specific situation, to that specific person/group?

So, ultimately, my question is: What makes someone a 'nice guy?'

I believe that some "nice guys" believe that by being submissive to a woman, he's being nice. A few women may like that, or may like it from time to time, but most women don't. How can a woman respect a man who doesn't respect himself? And how can you love someone you don't respect?

I think it's a passive-aggressive tactic - the nice guy sits around, wondering why the women don't hit on him, or stick around, and when they wander off with more interesting men who have testicular fortitude, the nice guy blames the women for what happened.

Oooh - I get it now. Nice guy = emo

Becouse nice guys are usually timid and booring.

To be nice is usually what people consider harmless.

Becouse if you have self-confidence and see women as sexy little prices
then you are considered a bad boy.

There is no given "nice".

Timid asholes are the worst asholes.

I just mean that ist considered bad to tell how horny you are and how hot ladies are becouse idiots thinks that is objectifiing them.

That is why nice is so lame.

I hate emos.
Emos think they are emotional becouse they ignore other people's feelings.

Emotional is not the same as timid motherly or like innocence.

I grew up with jerks telling me my music was evil
becouse I should lisen to mosart
and play childlish games as adult.

That is emo.

Kill them all.

I believe that some "nice guys" believe that by being submissive to a woman, he's being nice. A few women may like that, or may like it from time to time, but most women don't. How can a woman respect a man who doesn't respect himself? And how can you love someone you don't respect?

I think it's a passive-aggressive tactic - the nice guy sits around, wondering why the women don't hit on him, or stick around, and when they wander off with more interesting men who have testicular fortitude, the nice guy blames the women for what happened.

Oooh - I get it now. Nice guy = emo

Ooooh...good insight.

What I find somewhat...humorous?...is that my coworkers cannot comprehend me being anything other than the hard-nosed ass that I tend to be at work. Granted, that also depends on the situation - but generally speaking, it's my job to be hard-nosed.

Whereas most of my friends in the 'real world' see me as being sweet, caring, etc. Most cannot comprehend me being an ass. I say most b/c a few have seen me be an ass when it was deserved (like, ya know...the ex that dumped you for no reason and wouldnt even talk to you about it calls after not talking to you for 3 months and wants to be friends...she was a bit taken aback when I was an ass to her until I explained that she hadnt seen it before because she hadnt given me reason to show it...)

So, in essence, the people at work would begin to believe that of late I have had a number of good, nice girls interested in me without believing that it's because I'm an asshole - when in reality, I'm not an asshole towards the women. Granted, I'm not a pushover either. In fact, now that I'm not a pushover and have decided that I will not let myself be walked over, I seem to have women flocking to me more than ever before. It's all a matter of perception.

People at work think I have the girl b/c I'm an asshole. My friends see me as being a normal (whatever that is) guy - not an ass, not an emo - and suspect that only emo guys finish last b/c they're too pussy to actually let someone know how they feel. Ever think that maybe that guy you think is an asshole isnt really an asshole - maybe it's that we only remember the bad stories, or only tell the bad stories. Perception's a bitch, no?

It's entirely possible to be "one of the good guys" and still be self-confident and a bit assertive. Most women don't like men who come across as desperate. Nor do they like it when men seem to be begging for sex.

The real key is to have done enough things, and been enough places in your life to know who you are and what you can and cannot do. When you know who you are, issues such as sex, affection, etc., become less issues and more just a really nice part of life.

So this isn't because many guys just can't seem to get a hint?

Women don't give hints to spare the guy's feelings. They give hints to spare their own feelings. They want it both ways--they want to be able to tell some guy to go away, but they don't want to deal with the negative consequences of making that decision (conscience bothering them, creating a scene, etc.)

It's never done for the guy's sake. It's done so the woman can get herself off the hook for dumping the poor schmuck without feeling guilty for it, and without confronting the possibility that maybe, just maybe, she's an angry, unpleasant bitch.

*Sigh* When, oh when, will the idiotic Myth Of The Nice Guy(tm) die?

Let me walk you through a few basic points.

1) Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that you really are a "good guy," that does not entitle you to a girlfriend. You labor under the common male misconception that you deserve sex by default. This is not true. You may be a very good guy, and simply have not yet met a woman who is interested in being with you.

2) I'm sure YOU consider yourself a "good guy," but obviously women do not. You can choose to blame women for this, and insist that it's because women have lousy taste in men, or you can accept that there is something YOU are putting out there that women haven't responded to (at least not so far).

3) Whining about how all women prefer jerks is transparent and pathetic. More often than not, guys who whine about this are unattractive and immature fellows who somehow have gotten the idea that because they hold a door open they are entitled to an avalanche of naked cheerleaders. If you are not such a guy, then I strongly suggest you not talk like one.

4) "Women" are not a homogenous group, and "women" do not all want the same thing from a relationship. The sooner you stop thinking of "women" this way, the sooner you will have a chance of possibly being a worthwhile partner for an actual woman.

Amazingly, Bottle is still single.

Amazingly, Bottle is still single.
That doesn't mean that Bottle isn't having an astounding number of terrific sexual encounters.

. . . And if any girl/woman is stupid enough to think she can tell you "what women want,"

You mean the way you just did in that last quote?:p :p :p

Amazingly, Bottle is still single.

Bottle isn't single.

Bottle isn't single.

To quote that great philosopher, Mr. T: I pity the fool.

To quote that great philosopher, Mr. T: I pity the fool.

Despite her demeaner in this particular thread, Bottle is actually quite a wonderful young woman.

And that should mean somethin comin from me. I dont know that Bottle and I've ever interacted with less than some kind of argument. But that doesnt make her inconsiderate, or a bitch, or any less of a beautiful woman.

To quote that great philosopher, Mr. T: I pity the fool.

...

Was that all? I was under the impression you might have something of relevance to say.

...

Was that all? I was under the impression you might have something of relevance to say.

Have I told you lately that you're my hero? I wanna be just like you when I grow up - well, except I dont know about giving up women...but that's just a minor detail...

Have I told you lately that you're my hero? I wanna be just like you when I grow up - well, except I dont know about giving up women...but that's just a minor detail...

I gave up women?

Well, duh, it's because bad guys cheat and good guys just let it happen.

I gave up women?

No, I meant I wouldnt give up women.

No, I meant I wouldnt give up women.

Neither would I. So you can be exactly like me when you grow up.

Neither would I. So you can be exactly like me when you grow up.
YES!

Hi,

I can give you answer to your question, but you may not like it:

Women like men who make them feel good about who they are as a person.

That's pretty much it.

It sounds simple, but when they better appreciate themselves, they tend to like a guy who helps them to feel that way. They give their attention, love, and sometimes their bodies to guys that give that to them.

Keep in mind- women can have emotional problems just like guys. They also are more sensitive to everything (their minds are wired like that), esp how they see themselves and how others see them.

Hope this helps.

Amazingly, Bottle is still single.
Oh, the wit. :rolleyes:


Women don't give hints to spare the guy's feelings. They give hints to spare their own feelings. They want it both ways--they want to be able to tell some guy to go away, but they don't want to deal with the negative consequences of making that decision (conscience bothering them, creating a scene, etc.)

It's never done for the guy's sake. It's done so the woman can get herself off the hook for dumping the poor schmuck without feeling guilty for it, and without confronting the possibility that maybe, just maybe, she's an angry, unpleasant bitch.
Yes. You really got us all figured out. Congrats.

Counter-question, why do men choose bitches? I've had male friends tell me all about their latest psycho-bitch girlfriend and bemoan her nasty ways and then proceed to tell me all about the nice, sweet, gentle, considerate girl they've always wanted. Then, when they inevitable break-up occurs, they go right out and find another psycho-bitch. Why is that?

What this means is, it cuts both ways, get over it.

Counter-question, why do men choose bitches? I've had male friends tell me all about their latest psycho-bitch girlfriend and bemoan her nasty ways and then proceed to tell me all about the nice, sweet, gentle, considerate girl they've always wanted. Then, when they inevitable break-up occurs, they go right out and find another psycho-bitch. Why is that?

What this means is, it cuts both ways, get over it.

See, the thing is, often we dont know she's a psycho-bitch till we've dated her. If we were really interested in keeping a psycho-bitch around, would we break up w/her?

See, the thing is, often we dont know she's a psycho-bitch till we've dated her. If we were really interested in keeping a psycho-bitch around, would we break up w/her?

Perhaps you need to stop dating until you've found out why you keep choosing psycho-bitches. Once you've gotten your selector-switch properly functioning, you'll choose more suitable women.

See, the thing is, often we dont know she's a psycho-bitch till we've dated her. If we were really interested in keeping a psycho-bitch around, would we break up w/her?
Yeah tell me about it, after knowing someone for a while they can seem like a normal nice guy/girl. But they can change once you are actually in a relationship with them, and become really clingly and jealous and try telling you what to do.

Nice guys Finish last, because you are all PUSH OVERs, thats why you feel used, freakin sissies, why don't ya'll take some more initiative

Nice guys Finish last, because you are all PUSH OVERs, thats why you feel used, freakin sissies, why don't ya'll take some more initiative
I'm a women that likes a push over. I like to get my own way.

EDIT: See. Some girls go for the nice guys. :fluffle:

Perhaps you need to stop dating until you've found out why you keep choosing psycho-bitches. Once you've gotten your selector-switch properly functioning, you'll choose more suitable women.

Wait a tic, how old are you?

And what do you know of my dating life?

Every couple of months (or weeks) one of these threads pops up.

I feel badly for these young guys who think their problem is that they are "nice." Without knowing individual situations I think they are confusing "nice" for "weak." Women don't dislike nice guys.

That is silly.

However, humans, like all life on earth, are the product of natural selection. Millions of years of evolution have resulted in females in many mammalian species, including humans, who select mates based, in large part, on an ability to protect the young and pass on the strongest genetic material which will also help to insure the survival of the offspring.

In humans strength doesn't have to be physical, but, guys, you do have to have grit and fortitude. Women recognize and respect that.

Take it from an old bull, women want strength and substance. A good first step in that direction is to stop whining about how you are just too "nice" for most women.

Yes. You really got us all figured out. Congrats.

Was it the words "angry, unpleasant bitch" that gave it away?

Was it the words "angry, unpleasant bitch" that gave it away?
Why, yes. :fluffle:

I just noticed the title of this thread and it got me to thinking:

There's a difference between 'good' and 'nice.' One must not necessarily be nice to be good...

Well, well, well, that was interesting...

I went to work today, for a six hour shift delivering pizzas. Much to my surprise, the girl in question was working tonight (usually we only work together on Wednesdays, and then only us two - used to be my favourite day of the week).

When I saw her, I recalled the IW-Framework, and was able to say "She doesn't give a shit about you, don't worry about it." Easier said than done of course, but she made it easy tonight.

Because guess what: I was Snobbed.

She spoke precisely three sentences to me: "Can you get me that Pizza there, please?", "Thanks for that." and "Do you want some gum?"

The rest of the night, she pretty much ignored me. Weird.

Now, maybe some of you awesome experts can tell me why. Strictly speaking, I should be happy. After all, I'm not after being her asexual neutrum of a friend. But it still bothered me a little bit.

Now, either she caught wind of something, which is unlikely. As I posted before, if she hadn't learned of my intentions already she never will.
Or, I may have come across more rude than I meant to when she was talking to me about her boyfriend last week. I recall being asked "Why are you in such a bad mood?" then (I was thinking of a pretty long and pretty explicit answer then, but kept it to myself), so maybe I offended her.

Oh, well. I can live with it. Might just be a little awkward on next Wednesday. :p
You shoulda kept your answer brief but gotten the point across. It would be more awkward, maybe, but at least she'd know. Sounds to me like she just doesn't know how to approach you anymore. And I mean just to be a friends of sorts. Your frustration is confusing and maybe even hurting her a little.

Wait a tic, how old are you?

And what do you know of my dating life?

I'm 59. And I only know what you've mentioned in this thread. Consider it a generic statement aimed at both men and women who choose badly. Quite often the problem isn't the other person, but the baggage you carry that keeps you from choosing well. My son has this problem - he can't read the subtle indicators and so ends up with users and bitches.

Okay, the bolded part? I thought we had agreed that she had caught wind of something? Wait, let me dig out my post... voilà (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11213497&postcount=138) (man this took forever. This thread is really hard to navigate).


So, about the snubbing/ignoring.

Make up your mind. You hated it when she went on like you're still just friends, and now you hate it when she got the hint (i.e. your "bad mood") and stopped doing that.

Now, "make up your mind" is obviously easier said than done, because you're not likely to happily choose any option other than being with her, nevermind that this is out of the question.

It's just... what do you expect her to do? Like, seriously? If she's "normally nice", that's too nice, because you hate being just a friend (which I understand) and don't want to be treated as one when you'd much rather be treated as a boyfriend. If she's reserved, she's "snubbing" you, because while you hate being treated as a friend, it sucks even more to be treated as even less.

Give her a break. Probably there is a better way for her to be dealing with this, and maybe somebody will come here and point it out, but honestly? I don't think I know what it is.

And as much as it sucks (and boy does it ever suck) don't make your getting over her dependent on her. You're just going to make yourself miserable.

Oh, and if you manage to do that, please let me know how, will ya? :p
The best and hardest thing he could do: tell her how he feels without any expectations. Then just try to cope with the reality of his situation. It hurts, but he'll get over it eventually.

I'm 59. And I only know what you've mentioned in this thread. Consider it a generic statement aimed at both men and women who choose badly. Quite often the problem isn't the other person, but the baggage you carry that keeps you from choosing well. My son has this problem - he can't read the subtle indicators and so ends up with users and bitches.

I'd like to note that with the exception of 2 relationships I've been in, I've not dated any girl for more than a few weeks. See, it's not that I wait 6 months and then realize she's bitch and move on, it's that I go on a date or two, realize she's a bitch (or doesnt fit what I know I need in a mate), and move on.

Does that mean I only date bitches, no. I'm very picky about a number of personality traits that I desire/feel are necessary.

I believe that some "nice guys" believe that by being submissive to a woman, he's being nice. A few women may like that, or may like it from time to time, but most women don't. How can a woman respect a man who doesn't respect himself? And how can you love someone you don't respect?

I think it's a passive-aggressive tactic - the nice guy sits around, wondering why the women don't hit on him, or stick around, and when they wander off with more interesting men who have testicular fortitude, the nice guy blames the women for what happened.

Oooh - I get it now. Nice guy = emo
Then those nice guys are being too passive. Passive-aggressive really can work. Does for me. The trick is finding a "point of inflection," if you will, the point at which you shift from being more passive to more aggressive. It doesn't take much. Just a little bit to show you have a durable personality. Something substantial and figuratively tangible. And there's a difference between submissive and lacking self-respect. Some people confuse the two, but there is a difference. I certainly don't lack self-respect usually, but I tend to be fairly submissive. Well, more than most, methinks.

I'd like to note that with the exception of 2 relationships I've been in, I've not dated any girl for more than a few weeks. See, it's not that I wait 6 months and then realize she's bitch and move on, it's that I go on a date or two, realize she's a bitch (or doesnt fit what I know I need in a mate), and move on.

Does that mean I only date bitches, no. I'm very picky about a number of personality traits that I desire/feel are necessary.

Well then, good luck. I hope you find someone who meets your needs. And I hope you meet hers.

And, in any case, my original intent (easily derailed) was to point out that the situation works both ways - it's not just nice guys perceived as finishing last, but nice girls, too.

Ooooh...good insight.

What I find somewhat...humorous?...is that my coworkers cannot comprehend me being anything other than the hard-nosed ass that I tend to be at work. Granted, that also depends on the situation - but generally speaking, it's my job to be hard-nosed.

Whereas most of my friends in the 'real world' see me as being sweet, caring, etc. Most cannot comprehend me being an ass. I say most b/c a few have seen me be an ass when it was deserved (like, ya know...the ex that dumped you for no reason and wouldnt even talk to you about it calls after not talking to you for 3 months and wants to be friends...she was a bit taken aback when I was an ass to her until I explained that she hadnt seen it before because she hadnt given me reason to show it...)

So, in essence, the people at work would begin to believe that of late I have had a number of good, nice girls interested in me without believing that it's because I'm an asshole - when in reality, I'm not an asshole towards the women. Granted, I'm not a pushover either. In fact, now that I'm not a pushover and have decided that I will not let myself be walked over, I seem to have women flocking to me more than ever before. It's all a matter of perception.

People at work think I have the girl b/c I'm an asshole. My friends see me as being a normal (whatever that is) guy - not an ass, not an emo - and suspect that only emo guys finish last b/c they're too pussy to actually let someone know how they feel. Ever think that maybe that guy you think is an asshole isnt really an asshole - maybe it's that we only remember the bad stories, or only tell the bad stories. Perception's a bitch, no?
Perception is a bitch. Good thing for me I'm so good at manipulating it. Confusion and misdirection are my specialty.:D The only real difference between what you do and what I do is that I am both an asshole and a caring, sweet guy in all environments. Just depends on what I want to be at the time. Which, now that I think about it, sort of portrays that I am in control, which could be very attractive, I suppose.

Women don't give hints to spare the guy's feelings. They give hints to spare their own feelings. They want it both ways--they want to be able to tell some guy to go away, but they don't want to deal with the negative consequences of making that decision (conscience bothering them, creating a scene, etc.)

It's never done for the guy's sake. It's done so the woman can get herself off the hook for dumping the poor schmuck without feeling guilty for it, and without confronting the possibility that maybe, just maybe, she's an angry, unpleasant bitch.
Maybe it isn't that extreme. Maybe she just innocently doesn't want to hurt the guy's feelings. Maybe she wants to keep him as a friend. Guilt isn't something people like to live with. It certainly isn't a pleasant feeling. But the truth is that sugar-coating it really causes more problems and should lead to more guilt, unless woman-logic works differently....
*appeals to WYTYG for her take on it*

Counter-question, why do men choose bitches? I've had male friends tell me all about their latest psycho-bitch girlfriend and bemoan her nasty ways and then proceed to tell me all about the nice, sweet, gentle, considerate girl they've always wanted. Then, when they inevitable break-up occurs, they go right out and find another psycho-bitch. Why is that?

What this means is, it cuts both ways, get over it.
Thanks for not being any help.:rolleyes: I think sweet, shier women who think and can make me think are attractive. I don't really understand a male attraction to "psycho-bitches." I've always liked a more balanced woman. Confidence isn't really necessary, either. Reservation can be a cute quality. The best part is tentatively growing in through the labyrinth of her attentions until she cannot deny the bond. It takes patience and devotion, but that just makes the fruits of the labor so much sweeter. Oh, wait, I've only done that once. Usually I'm the subject of such efforts, when I'm involved at all.

Well then, good luck. I hope you find someone who meets your needs. And I hope you meet hers.

And, in any case, my original intent (easily derailed) was to point out that the situation works both ways - it's not just nice guys perceived as finishing last, but nice girls, too.


LoL. I'll agree with you on that. But, then again, this begs the question: how do we define "nice?"

LoL. I'll agree with you on that. But, then again, this begs the question: how do we define "nice?"
I assumed that until now we had pretty much let society define it for us as a personality type.

I assumed that until now we had pretty much let society define it for us as a personality type.

Ok, so then what's nice?

What makes someone a 'nice guy' or a 'nice girl'?

Nice is thinking of others before you think of yourself.
I think when some men blow off women, the women tend to think, "I am good enough for him," and go after him. This does not mean he his a "bad" guy, just rude. We see very few actual "bad" guys in our everyday life.

I am a Good guy. No doubt. But this is not why I only get laid once a year or so. I don't approach women, and when women show interest in me I run like the wind. This has nothing to do with confidence in the least, just my own ignorant fears.

Besides, the bad guys have to have someone to fear. :)

Nice is thinking of others before you think of yourself.
I think when some men blow off women, the women tend to think, "I am good enough for him," and go after him. This does not mean he his a "bad" guy, just rude. We see very few actual "bad" guys in our everyday life.

I am a Good guy. No doubt. But this is not why I only get laid once a year or so. I don't approach women, and when women show interest in me I run like the wind. This has nothing to do with confidence in the least, just my own ignorant fears.

Besides, the bad guys have to have someone to fear. :)

So, nice guys and girls are the kind that let themselves get walked all over?

You know, they say that men are the ones who can't read and deal with emotions properly, but if you think there is nothing wrong with a situation in which one of your mates genuinely loves you, and you'd never consider him, but still keep him around (so to speak), then that's just nasty.

I'm not sure whether this has to do with girls generally having an easier time finding a partner or whether that is even true, but you might not have any idea how hurtful it is to be demoted like this, and even worse to then have to listen about those who were considered worthy when you were not. I mean, simply being dumped can be harsh, but this is just a step beyond that. It seriously gnaws away at you.

Man, you have issues! from the above, it sounds like the only relationship you value is one where you get to pork a girl! don't you have friends? even ones of the opposite sex? what you wrote above sounds like anybody you aren't shagging doesn't mean anything to you. so what happens when you meet a person of the opposite sex? you decide if you want to pork them or not, and refuse to connect with anyone you aren't sexually attracted to? if you ever get a girlfriend you will stop talking to women cos you aren't recruiting for the position "girlfriend"? or are you always looking to upgrade? I mean dog forbid you should demote someone from sex object to person :rolleyes:

Man, you have issues! from the above, it sounds like the only relationship you value is one where you get to pork a girl! don't you have friends?
Hehe, you know, Bottle went through with this already. Didn't get through to me then either.

even ones of the opposite sex? what you wrote above sounds like anybody you aren't shagging doesn't mean anything to you. so what happens when you meet a person of the opposite sex?
I do have friends of the opposite sex. They are my friends because I am not interested in having a romantic relationship with them.
Yes, surprisingly enough, I consider physical attraction and sex to be a part of a romantic relationship. That is obviously being used against me here, but I don't really give a shit.

Here is the deal: Sometimes, I fall in love with girls, believe it or not. In the past, when this has happened, I wasn't sure how to approach them (there was one exception a long time ago, but that's nothing I'm going to talk about here), so I tried the "natural" sort of way. I was being nice (too nice perhaps, helping with homework is probably not the way to get someone interested in you), I made smalltalk and other conversations, I made them laugh, I listened to their problems.
Unfortunately, I didn't manage to convey my intentions properly, nor was I able to read what was happening.

She ended up seeing me as a friend, not a romantic interest. Now, whether that was because she thought of me like that from the day we met, or whether I made her think of me that way through my behaviour I don't know.

Suffice to say that the whole thing ended up in an ugly sort of situation, where I was the friend and she would talk to me about her boyfriends, either not knowing or ignoring my feelings for her. So I would end up getting hurt by having to watch this and fight my feelings of inferiority, and she'd have someone to talk to. Great deal that, just not for me.

I don't think that way about all girls, and I don't think I ever said so. But when I love a girl, I want to be in a romantic relationship with her (yes, including sex...although apparently that's bad when "nice guys" want it). Anything less that that is not going to be enough, and I'm just setting myself up for getting hurt and disappointed.

And I'm now doing the thing that you all probably would've done a long time ago, and that is to say "enough with this crap". In the future I'm going to be more direct, I'm going to come out with what I think. If she doesn't like me, fine. There's plenty of fish in the sea. At least I won't be wasting my time for weeks or months only to get hurt. And if she does like me, then that's great. And to increase my chances, I'll go to the gym again, maybe get a new haircut and new glasses. At least it can't hurt.

Now, go ahead and condemn me for that. Apparently I'm violating expectations or something, because it seems that pretty much every girl and maybe a few of the guys in this thread are at my throat over this. But I'm done being an asexual neutrum* of a friend and stand on the sidelines.

*Yep. Maybe I've got psychological issues or something, but not being looked at "in that way" makes me feel like something is wrong with me. What does that other guy have that I don't? Why is he a man, and I'm a friend? Fucked up, I know, but that's the way things go sometimes.

Now, go ahead and condemn me for that. Apparently I'm violating expectations or something, because it seems that pretty much every girl and maybe a few of the guys in this thread are at my throat over this.
Oh, don't be such a drama queen! :p

Nobody will be at your throat for anything you just said.

The only person who was at your throat for the "if I'm attracted to someone romantically, I don't want to be just friends" was Bottle, and the way I read her, that was more of a general gripe about people undervaluing (is that even a word?) friendship while overvaluing (or this?) sex.

Personally, everything you just said sounded reasonable enough, even if I had to grit my teeth about knowing that stupid ladder theory was a driving force behind some of that. ;)

Ok, so then what's nice?

What makes someone a 'nice guy' or a 'nice girl'?
How the hell should I know. Do I look like a society lackey to you?:p

Nice is thinking of others before you think of yourself.
I think when some men blow off women, the women tend to think, "I am good enough for him," and go after him. This does not mean he his a "bad" guy, just rude. We see very few actual "bad" guys in our everyday life.

I am a Good guy. No doubt. But this is not why I only get laid once a year or so. I don't approach women, and when women show interest in me I run like the wind. This has nothing to do with confidence in the least, just my own ignorant fears.

Besides, the bad guys have to have someone to fear. :)
*strikes fear into the hearts of bad guys*
That's right. They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't afraid of being outdone.:cool: They get desparate and confrontational, which draws away all the women I don't want. And a few of the others, but the universe never works out perfectly. Besides, I want my relationships to be based on genuine interest, not indignation.
*remembers that he hasn't actually had a relationship:( *

Hehe, you know, Bottle went through with this already. Didn't get through to me then either.


I do have friends of the opposite sex. They are my friends because I am not interested in having a romantic relationship with them.
Yes, surprisingly enough, I consider physical attraction and sex to be a part of a romantic relationship. That is obviously being used against me here, but I don't really give a shit.

Here is the deal: Sometimes, I fall in love with girls, believe it or not. In the past, when this has happened, I wasn't sure how to approach them (there was one exception a long time ago, but that's nothing I'm going to talk about here), so I tried the "natural" sort of way. I was being nice (too nice perhaps, helping with homework is probably not the way to get someone interested in you), I made smalltalk and other conversations, I made them laugh, I listened to their problems.
Unfortunately, I didn't manage to convey my intentions properly, nor was I able to read what was happening.

She ended up seeing me as a friend, not a romantic interest. Now, whether that was because she thought of me like that from the day we met, or whether I made her think of me that way through my behaviour I don't know.

Suffice to say that the whole thing ended up in an ugly sort of situation, where I was the friend and she would talk to me about her boyfriends, either not knowing or ignoring my feelings for her. So I would end up getting hurt by having to watch this and fight my feelings of inferiority, and she'd have someone to talk to. Great deal that, just not for me.

I don't think that way about all girls, and I don't think I ever said so. But when I love a girl, I want to be in a romantic relationship with her (yes, including sex...although apparently that's bad when "nice guys" want it). Anything less that that is not going to be enough, and I'm just setting myself up for getting hurt and disappointed.

And I'm now doing the thing that you all probably would've done a long time ago, and that is to say "enough with this crap". In the future I'm going to be more direct, I'm going to come out with what I think. If she doesn't like me, fine. There's plenty of fish in the sea. At least I won't be wasting my time for weeks or months only to get hurt. And if she does like me, then that's great. And to increase my chances, I'll go to the gym again, maybe get a new haircut and new glasses. At least it can't hurt.

Now, go ahead and condemn me for that. Apparently I'm violating expectations or something, because it seems that pretty much every girl and maybe a few of the guys in this thread are at my throat over this. But I'm done being an asexual neutrum* of a friend and stand on the sidelines.

*Yep. Maybe I've got psychological issues or something, but not being looked at "in that way" makes me feel like something is wrong with me. What does that other guy have that I don't? Why is he a man, and I'm a friend? Fucked up, I know, but that's the way things go sometimes.
I wouldn't be more direct, but I'd hate myself for not being direct. If you can do it, the better for you. I tend to give myself a high tolerance for putting up with crap like the "boyfriend" talks. But I suppose that puts me in a better position for a friendship, if that even works out....But I haven't met anyone new irl in a long while....

If good guys finish last, then it is because women take advantage of their perceived weakness. That is, a "nice guy" is more likely to think that the person he is with (i.e. his girlfriend) is a "nice girl" -- equally nice as he is. However, this allows for his girlfriend to take advantage of him by cheating on him -- either physically or emotionally -- spending his money, or whatever. So, the weakness is caused by the two distinct attitudes toward human interactions that are involved in the relationship. On the one hand, the view of humans as ultimately good, by our "nice guy" and the view that other humans are here for us to manipulate by the female.
By the way, there is no reason why "nice girls" can't finish last either. Ultimately, you want a "nice guy" to be with a "nice girl".
I've had trouble with the type of women that are out for their own advantage, also; they tend to use you for their own purposes and mess you and other males around. I think it just takes time and a lot of errors to find the "nice girl". So, it is possible that viewed over time, that "nice guys" won't finish last because they'll have the best relationship with the "nice girl".

Sorry for the quotes around 'nice guy' and 'nice girl'. I used them because I'm not sure such categories actually exist.

If good guys finish last, then it is because women take advantage of their perceived weakness. That is, a "nice guy" is more likely to think that the person he is with (i.e. his girlfriend) is a "nice girl" -- equally nice as he is. However, this allows for his girlfriend to take advantage of him by cheating on him -- either physically or emotionally -- spending his money, or whatever. So, the weakness is caused by the two distinct attitudes toward human interactions that are involved in the relationship. On the one hand, the view of humans as ultimately good, by our "nice guy" and the view that other humans are here for us to manipulate by the female.
By the way, there is no reason why "nice girls" can't finish last either. Ultimately, you want a "nice guy" to be with a "nice girl".
I've had trouble with the type of women that are out for their own advantage, also; they tend to use you for their own purposes and mess you and other males around. I think it just takes time and a lot of errors to find the "nice girl". So, it is possible that viewed over time, that "nice guys" won't finish last because they'll have the best relationship with the "nice girl".

Sorry for the quotes around 'nice guy' and 'nice girl'. I used them because I'm not sure such categories actually exist.


Quotes are good. You summed up pretty much all the feelings nicely there... on both sides of the argument. Well done.

Oh, yeah, and there is too much expected of both genders I think. People need to realise that guys are (again, generalisation) slow witted, emotionally dull, often horny, but genuinely interested in women. Girls are under a whole load of pressure from everyone to be emotionally and socially competent, which is not always the case, and while it is oftn expected that they will not have to make the first move it is also expected they will have to provide a detailed reason of why they break up. People aren't perfect, and there isnt much we can do about it, except to identify which general type of people you want to atract and try to stylise yourself to what they GENERALLY want.

Quotes are good. You summed up pretty much all the feelings nicely there... on both sides of the argument. Well done.

Do you mean that I've said nothing new? Sorry, I didn't read read all the other posts; but thanks, if you are actually making a compliment.

Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

I couldn't agree more. My only answer is that woman-kind is just all sorts of WTF.

If good guys finish last, then it is because women take advantage of their perceived weakness. That is, a "nice guy" is more likely to think that the person he is with (i.e. his girlfriend) is a "nice girl" -- equally nice as he is. However, this allows for his girlfriend to take advantage of him by cheating on him -- either physically or emotionally -- spending his money, or whatever. So, the weakness is caused by the two distinct attitudes toward human interactions that are involved in the relationship. On the one hand, the view of humans as ultimately good, by our "nice guy" and the view that other humans are here for us to manipulate by the female.
By the way, there is no reason why "nice girls" can't finish last either. Ultimately, you want a "nice guy" to be with a "nice girl".
I've had trouble with the type of women that are out for their own advantage, also; they tend to use you for their own purposes and mess you and other males around. I think it just takes time and a lot of errors to find the "nice girl". So, it is possible that viewed over time, that "nice guys" won't finish last because they'll have the best relationship with the "nice girl".

Sorry for the quotes around 'nice guy' and 'nice girl'. I used them because I'm not sure such categories actually exist.
That all depends on the "nice guy." We aren't all pushovers like that. I would never let a woman use me like that. Then again, I'm more selective than most males in selecting a lover....

Quotes are good. You summed up pretty much all the feelings nicely there... on both sides of the argument. Well done.

Oh, yeah, and there is too much expected of both genders I think. People need to realise that guys are (again, generalisation) slow witted, emotionally dull, often horny, but genuinely interested in women. Girls are under a whole load of pressure from everyone to be emotionally and socially competent, which is not always the case, and while it is oftn expected that they will not have to make the first move it is also expected they will have to provide a detailed reason of why they break up. People aren't perfect, and there isnt much we can do about it, except to identify which general type of people you want to atract and try to stylise yourself to what they GENERALLY want.
I suppose I'm exceptional, then. I have quick wit, strong emotion (though I try to keep it well-concealed), and I'm less horny than my peers while at once having a comparable interest in women. I don't really expect much of a woman other than honesty. If she's honest, I can make a fair judgement as to whether or not I would enjoy her company, either as a friend or lover, depending which she suited best, if either.

I couldn't agree more. My only answer is that woman-kind is just all sorts of WTF.
That applies to all humanity. Well, as much as to any one part. I have little trouble understanding people, but maybe I'm just more empathetic than most.

I suppose I'm exceptional, then. I have quick wit, strong emotion (though I try to keep it well-concealed), and I'm less horny than my peers while at once having a comparable interest in women. I don't really expect much of a woman other than honesty. If she's honest, I can make a fair judgement as to whether or not I would enjoy her company, either as a friend or lover, depending which she suited best, if either.

Hey, I'm the same, I don't really fit the mould (except for being inept in social situations) and I'm very empathetic aswell, but most people in my experience do fit it.

Originally Posted by Zilam
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?

You can talk to 100 people and you will get 100 different responses regarding that. The one answer that has held true through 5,000 years of human history and has offended women since it was first said.

Women don't know what they want.

Women claim that they want to be treated as seperate individuals, but they all seem to behave as if they have a Borg like "Hive-mind". Amusing isn't it? :p

Here's a tip for you. Never believe what a woman says, only what a woman does.

Quotes are good. You summed up pretty much all the feelings nicely there... on both sides of the argument. Well done.

Oh, yeah, and there is too much expected of both genders I think. People need to realise that guys are (again, generalisation) slow witted, emotionally dull, often horny, but genuinely interested in women. Girls are under a whole load of pressure from everyone to be emotionally and socially competent, which is not always the case, and while it is oftn expected that they will not have to make the first move it is also expected they will have to provide a detailed reason of why they break up. People aren't perfect, and there isnt much we can do about it, except to identify which general type of people you want to atract and try to stylise yourself to what they GENERALLY want.

Your generalizations are a little off. It all depends on what age group, social status, etc you're looking at. While some might think I'm slow-witted when it comes to women, I honestly dont care to spend the time to figure out what a woman is really trying to say. That doesnt mean I'm slow-witted, just that I believe in openness and honesty - if you want me, say so. If you dont, say so. Dont make me guess, b/c, lets face it, if that's how it is before we're really together, chances are it'll always be me trying to guess what's going on.

I think you got the stereotype of the woman backwards. I think women are expected to be emotionally unstable and so many are that way just because it's what's expected. I happen to know quite a few truly grounded women.


The issue at hand really comes down to what we all think is a 'nice guy.' Again, there's a big difference between a 'nice guy' and a 'good guy.' I am by no means a 'nice guy.' Not anymore, I've been stepped on too many times. That doesnt, however, mean I'm not a good guy. I treat people the way they deserve to be treated - many of my female friends think I'm the sweetest, most caring, best friend they could ever find. Other people think I'm the biggest ass they've ever meet. And there are a few that have gone from one side of the fence to the other.

Don't misunerstand, there's a difference between standing up for yourself and being selfish. Remember: there is no such thing as 'the one' - to think that in this world of billions of people, only one would fit you is extremely egotistical - 'the one' comes down to timing.

Neu - if you really 'loved' this girl, then you would be her friend if that's what she wanted. You would be there to pick her up after each fight, or failed relationship, etc. And you would respect the decisions she's made about who to date - even if you dont agree with them.

I've found that the best parents aren't the ones that keep their children inside, but the ones that are there to pick their kid up, brush him/her off, bring out the rubbing alcohol, clean up the skinned knee, blow on it (cuz you all know your parents did that), kiss it better, and send him/her out to play some more - eventually we learned to not skin our knees (at least, I hope so), it comes with time and experience. To force someone to learn, or a relationship to appear, generally winds up ending badly.

What you're feeling is jealousy, and you feel like you should get this girl instead of the other guy - for a nice guy, you're pretty egotistical (this, coincidentally, is what I was trying to get to with asking the defiition of 'nice guy') which, to some extent, negates the whole 'nice guy' theory of yours.

I firmly believe that the real 'nice guys' dont know who they are and those who think they're nice blame their shortcomings on being overly 'nice' instead of taking responsibility for poor decisions / behaviour.

Your generalizations are a little off. It all depends on what age group, social status, etc you're looking at.

Of course it depends, thats my experience in matters. Part of my aim was in fact to emphasise how stupid such detailed generalisations are


I think you got the stereotype of the woman backwards. I think women are expected to be emotionally unstable and so many are that way just because it's what's expected. I happen to know quite a few truly grounded women.

Really? I dunno, maybe its different here, or maybe my social circle is different, but I was more confident with my women generalisation than my mens one.


I've found that the best parents aren't the ones that keep their children inside, but the ones that are there to pick their kid up, brush him/her off, bring out the rubbing alcohol, clean up the skinned knee, blow on it (cuz you all know your parents did that), kiss it better, and send him/her out to play some more - eventually we learned to not skin our knees (at least, I hope so), it comes with time and experience. To force someone to learn, or a relationship to appear, generally winds up ending badly.

Agreed. Not sure what relevance it has to this discussion, but it's sound none the same.

Of course it depends, thats my experience in matters. Part of my aim was in fact to emphasise how stupid such detailed generalisations are




Really? I dunno, maybe its different here, or maybe my social circle is different, but I was more confident with my women generalisation than my mens one.




Agreed. Not sure what relevance it has to this discussion, but it's sound none the same.

I'm pretty picky about who I run around with, maybe that's why.

As to the bit about the parents. The relevance comes from realizing that love means trust. To trust someone means that you let them make decisions - you're there when they fall, but you still have to give them the chance to fall. Protecting someone from the fall simply means the fall will come later when you're not around and they won't know how to handle it.

i have AN answer.

it is that there is no "last".
and that the rain, both of tests and of blessings, falls upon the high and the low alike. and that diversity is the nature of reality. and that we live in a probablistic rather then linear universe.

the well intended do not finish last any more often then those who mean harm or totaly refuse to concern themselves with responsibly avoiding the causing of suffering, generaly in ignorance, and or indiference, of the simple reality that the more suffering there is, the more likely they are themselves to suffer as a resault.

if anything, 'good guys' 'finish last' LESS OFTEN then 'bad guys'.

there is anyother little problem with that propisition.
what the hell is a 'good' or 'bad' guy?

i humbly submit there ain't no such thing.

the only real 'good' or 'bad' is causing, knowingly and intentionaly, more of the one then the other, and most people, while on average not intending harm, have little if any objective understanding of the real mechanism of doing either.

(which begins with the priorities we actualy live by, often without knowing or realizing that we do, and has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we may or may not believe nor believe in)

=^^=
.../\...

Nice guys finish last because they are considerate enough to satsify their partners first before attending to their own needs.

..........Oh, wait, are you referring to the idea that decent blokes get less girls then jerks?

In that case, disregard.......:p

Because:

-they have no mysterious allure
-they don't constitute a challenge
- good guys, sorry, but you're generally boring.

This is perfectly true. Guys that are nice all the time and only aiming to please girls, are simply too predictable and therefore not interesting.

Nice guys finish last because they are considerate enough to satsify their partners first before attending to their own needs.

Do that many guys have that much trouble "satisfying" women?

Do that many guys have that much trouble "satisfying" women?

Yes, believe me, they do

Yes, believe me, they do

The other thing that strikes me as strange is this idea that women only have one orgasm, hence the phrase, "she gets hers before I get mine".

Hate to tell you this, but most women can have multiples, and really enjoy it.

The other thing that strikes me as strange is this idea that women only have one orgasm, hence the phrase, "she gets hers before I get mine".

Hate to tell you this, but most women can have multiples, and really enjoy it.

Not most, but aye, many.

They would need experience with women to know that, and experience is something almost entirely absent in this thread. (Notice the almost)

Not most, but aye, many.

They would need experience with women to know that, and experience is something almost entirely absent in this thread. (Notice the almost)
I also find the attitude that somehow the man is allowing the woman to enjoy herself to be quite humorous.

Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
like someone else has said, i think you are mistaking "good guy" with "passive guy". no one likes a passive partner for very long, unless you are a dick-head (male/female) who wants to have a slave "at home" (they then usually find an active lover outside it).

women generally don't like "passive men" just like men usually prefer an "active woman"; the reverse also applies. it's all down to a balance between being "nice" and strong. be nice, but don't allow your partner to run you over. the moment you do, your relationship is doomed.

i love observing couples (not while they have sex hehehe not that kind of watching) and the greatest pitfall of most (in my humble opinion) is the baby talk. it really gets on my nerves. i think it destroys the eroticism in a relationship (quality sensuality is vital). it's the perfect example of how being "too nice" can destroy a relationship. who want's to have a baby in bed, other than a sick bastard?

my personal take is leave the baby talk to the babies and treat your woman/man like a lover and a friend. be passionate, be sensual, be confident, be innovative, take the initiative.

whether you are a man or a woman, it doesn't really matter. everybody likes an active partner, particularly in bed. everyone likes seeing their "domination" challenged once in a while. people usually try dominating a partner but once they achieve it they loose interest.

BAN BABY TALK, for the sake of your relationship. it doesn't happen when you first meet someone; why bring it in later?

Hey, I'm the same, I don't really fit the mould (except for being inept in social situations) and I'm very empathetic aswell, but most people in my experience do fit it.
Yes, they do. Foolish bastards. Ah well, I'll be the one to gain from their superficiality. Being socially aloof has it's benefits, after all.:cool:

They don't. I'm marrying one.

You can talk to 100 people and you will get 100 different responses regarding that. The one answer that has held true through 5,000 years of human history and has offended women since it was first said.



Women claim that they want to be treated as seperate individuals, but they all seem to behave as if they have a Borg like "Hive-mind". Amusing isn't it? :p

Here's a tip for you. Never believe what a woman says, only what a woman does.
I don't think that's a good idea. I can usually tell when people are being entirely truthful with me or not. You should consider what she says but look to her body language to reveal the truth of the matter. Most people can't really control their body language well enough to conceal what they are really thinking or feeling.

They don't. I'm marrying one.
Aww. Congratulations! :fluffle:
*cues recorded applause*

Your generalizations are a little off. It all depends on what age group, social status, etc you're looking at. While some might think I'm slow-witted when it comes to women, I honestly dont care to spend the time to figure out what a woman is really trying to say. That doesnt mean I'm slow-witted, just that I believe in openness and honesty - if you want me, say so. If you dont, say so. Dont make me guess, b/c, lets face it, if that's how it is before we're really together, chances are it'll always be me trying to guess what's going on.

I think you got the stereotype of the woman backwards. I think women are expected to be emotionally unstable and so many are that way just because it's what's expected. I happen to know quite a few truly grounded women.


The issue at hand really comes down to what we all think is a 'nice guy.' Again, there's a big difference between a 'nice guy' and a 'good guy.' I am by no means a 'nice guy.' Not anymore, I've been stepped on too many times. That doesnt, however, mean I'm not a good guy. I treat people the way they deserve to be treated - many of my female friends think I'm the sweetest, most caring, best friend they could ever find. Other people think I'm the biggest ass they've ever meet. And there are a few that have gone from one side of the fence to the other.

Don't misunerstand, there's a difference between standing up for yourself and being selfish. Remember: there is no such thing as 'the one' - to think that in this world of billions of people, only one would fit you is extremely egotistical - 'the one' comes down to timing.

Neu - if you really 'loved' this girl, then you would be her friend if that's what she wanted. You would be there to pick her up after each fight, or failed relationship, etc. And you would respect the decisions she's made about who to date - even if you dont agree with them.

I've found that the best parents aren't the ones that keep their children inside, but the ones that are there to pick their kid up, brush him/her off, bring out the rubbing alcohol, clean up the skinned knee, blow on it (cuz you all know your parents did that), kiss it better, and send him/her out to play some more - eventually we learned to not skin our knees (at least, I hope so), it comes with time and experience. To force someone to learn, or a relationship to appear, generally winds up ending badly.

What you're feeling is jealousy, and you feel like you should get this girl instead of the other guy - for a nice guy, you're pretty egotistical (this, coincidentally, is what I was trying to get to with asking the defiition of 'nice guy') which, to some extent, negates the whole 'nice guy' theory of yours.

I firmly believe that the real 'nice guys' dont know who they are and those who think they're nice blame their shortcomings on being overly 'nice' instead of taking responsibility for poor decisions / behaviour.
But what about a coy woman? Those can be particularly fun. IRL I can tell when a woman is interested in me. Well, I haven't guessed wrong yet, anyway. And her trying, and noticably failing, to pretend she might not be interested while leading me on a bit is really kind of cute. And I imagine it could lead to some rather interesting...playing later on.

Nice guys finish last because they are considerate enough to satsify their partners first before attending to their own needs.

..........Oh, wait, are you referring to the idea that decent blokes get less girls then jerks?

In that case, disregard.......:p
We can't disregard it. It's been said so many times already.:rolleyes:

Yes, believe me, they do
I've not had the opportunity to try. Care to offer me any tips sometime for the future?

like someone else has said, i think you are mistaking "good guy" with "passive guy". no one likes a passive partner for very long, unless you are a dick-head (male/female) who wants to have a slave "at home" (they then usually find an active lover outside it).

women generally don't like "passive men" just like men usually prefer an "active woman"; the reverse also applies. it's all down to a balance between being "nice" and strong. be nice, but don't allow your partner to run you over. the moment you do, your relationship is doomed.

i love observing couples (not while they have sex hehehe not that kind of watching) and the greatest pitfall of most (in my humble opinion) is the baby talk. it really gets on my nerves. i think it destroys the eroticism in a relationship (quality sensuality is vital). it's the perfect example of how being "too nice" can destroy a relationship. who want's to have a baby in bed, other than a sick bastard?

my personal take is leave the baby talk to the babies and treat your woman/man like a lover and a friend. be passionate, be sensual, be confident, be innovative, take the initiative.

whether you are a man or a woman, it doesn't really matter. everybody likes an active partner, particularly in bed. everyone likes seeing their "domination" challenged once in a while. people usually try dominating a partner but once they achieve it they loose interest.

BAN BABY TALK, for the sake of your relationship. it doesn't happen when you first meet someone; why bring it in later?
*shudders at the mention of baby talk*
I never talked to my little siblings like that when they were babies. I can't imagine talking to a lover that way. It's undignified. There's not classiness or taste to it at all. I go '20's and '30's with the sweet nothings I'd whisper into her ear, something smooth, swingin' and sensual.

Not most, but aye, many.

They would need experience with women to know that, and experience is something almost entirely absent in this thread. (Notice the almost)

i would argue that the majority of women who have trouble orgasming do so because they believe they will. Because they believe that they must have sex in a specific manner for an orgasm to happen, and become so hung up in that belief that such becomes the case - see "pygmalion effect"

Men can have just as much trouble. Orgasming is just as much mental as it is physical for both genders.

But what about a coy woman? Those can be particularly fun. IRL I can tell when a woman is interested in me. Well, I haven't guessed wrong yet, anyway. And her trying, and noticably failing, to pretend she might not be interested while leading me on a bit is really kind of cute. And I imagine it could lead to some rather interesting...playing later on.

Eh, I dont do coy. I dont play those games. Seriously, all it's ever done for me is lead to her trying to play me again later. And that's the crux of what I was stating: a woman or man who continues games during the dating scene (after the initial encounter) will oft continue to play those games well into the relationship - now, that's not always bad, some people like it. I for one, have no interest in those games.

Good guys finish last because they're being nice by letting others get ahead.

*shudders at the mention of baby talk*
I never talked to my little siblings like that when they were babies. I can't imagine talking to a lover that way. It's undignified. There's not classiness or taste to it at all. I go '20's and '30's with the sweet nothings I'd whisper into her ear, something smooth, swingin' and sensual.
i know, i can't do baby talk to babies either but - believe me - there are so many people who talk to their lovers like that... and then they wander why their relationship is unsatisfying and fails...
*cringes*

Eh, I dont do coy. I dont play those games. Seriously, all it's ever done for me is lead to her trying to play me again later. And that's the crux of what I was stating: a woman or man who continues games during the dating scene (after the initial encounter) will oft continue to play those games well into the relationship - now, that's not always bad, some people like it. I for one, have no interest in those games.
I didn't mean game-playing. I meant a lover who was clearly interested but was a bit of a tease, still honest but playful. I didn't mean someone who toyed with her relationships. That's another matter altogether.

i know, i can't do baby talk to babies either but - believe me - there are so many people who talk to their lovers like that... and then they wander why their relationship is unsatisfying and fails...
*cringes*
Oh, I know they do it. And I hate it. I just want to...to....Actually, I don't know what to do with those people. They're just so...infuriating. What's worse is a pair of them matched.
*gags while suppressing a seizure*

I didn't mean game-playing. I meant a lover who was clearly interested but was a bit of a tease, still honest but playful. I didn't mean someone who toyed with her relationships. That's another matter altogether.

Oh, I'm all about the tease.

Oh, I'm all about the tease.
Ah, well, that changes...well, almost nothing in relation to the thread.:p

I see good natured teasing and being a tease as healthy for a relationship - it shows a sense of humor and thus allows both sides to be more relaxed with each other.

I see good natured teasing and being a tease as healthy for a relationship - it shows a sense of humor and thus allows both sides to be more relaxed with each other.
Precisely. But some people aren't comfortable being a tease. Most have little or no trouble being teased, though.

Precisely. But some people aren't comfortable being a tease. Most have little or no trouble being teased, though.
unfortunately, some can't see the line between teasing and game-playing... the later is really destructive.

unfortunately, some can't see the line between teasing and game-playing... the later is really destructive.
I suppose. Maybe I'm just lucky I've never had that problem.

unfortunately, some can't see the line between teasing and game-playing... the later is really destructive.

Indeed. But, then again, that comes down to a maturity thing. (I define maturity as knowing when it's ok screw around and when it's not)

Indeed. But, then again, that comes down to a maturity thing. (I define maturity as knowing when it's ok screw around and when it's not)
Maybe. But we make mistakes sometimes. And at other times, a little screwing around is needed to make everyone regain their focus on something that normally doesn't require it.

Maybe. But we make mistakes sometimes. And at other times, a little screwing around is needed to make everyone regain their focus on something that normally doesn't require it.

Again, knowing when it's ok/needed and when it's not ;) No one can be perfect, but that doesnt mean it's ok to repeat the exact same mistake time and again...

Again, knowing when it's ok/needed and when it's not ;) No one can be perfect, but that doesnt mean it's ok to repeat the exact same mistake time and again...
No, but some people just don't see it as a mistake. And sometimes it may not seem to be needed, but it really eases the tension.

It does tie in with male entitlement, but it also does go the other way. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I mean, it's not to do with male entitlement and everything to do with male emotional fragility.

The problem that you, and many other guys, seem to have is that you don't want to admit to yourself that SHE JUST DOESN'T LIKE YOU THAT WAY.
I suppose they don't want to admit it because of how hard it is to be rejected time and again by every woman that they become interested in.

See, the thing is, often we dont know she's a psycho-bitch till we've dated her. If we were really interested in keeping a psycho-bitch around, would we break up w/her?
You can replace "psycho-bitch" with "asshole" and it would be an equally valid argument made on the part of women. What a double standard!

I don't think that way about all girls, and I don't think I ever said so. But when I love a girl, I want to be in a romantic relationship with her (yes, including sex...although apparently that's bad when "nice guys" want it).
I think it's an American puritan thing. Now Bottle will protest that she's an atheist, but in reality most atheists are just post-Christians, still holding most of the cultural baggage. It's also why they use words like "dirty" and "nasty" when talking about sex.

I suppose. Maybe I'm just lucky I've never had that problem.
Indeed. But, then again, that comes down to a maturity thing. (I define maturity as knowing when it's ok screw around and when it's not)
at the end of the day, it's just a question of using common sense and not allowing to let the tease go too far...also, in my mind, teasing should be a quick joke type of thing. the longer the tease lasts, the more it becomes like game-playing. also, the teasing shouldn't really make your partner feel like he/she's being tested. teasing should be fun.

personally, i wouldn't tease with really serious issues, even if i do believe that teasing and joking is the best way to deal with those little things that bother us (about our partner); toilet seat down or toothpaste open type of thing. instead of moaning about those things (and bringing in negative vibes), i've always defended you should joke about them persistently. with good humour and a bit of persistence, eventually you end up "educating" your partner about little things that annoy you (and vice-versa of course).

at the end of the day, it's just a question of using common sense and not allowing to let the tease go too far...also, in my mind, teasing should be a quick joke type of thing. the longer the tease lasts, the more it becomes like game-playing. also, the teasing shouldn't really make your partner feel like he/she's being tested. teasing should be fun.

personally, i wouldn't tease with really serious issues, even if i do believe that teasing and joking is the best way to deal with those little things that bother us (about our partner); toilet seat down or toothpaste open type of thing. instead of moaning about those things (and bringing in negative vibes), i've always defended you should joke about them persistently. with good humour and a bit of persistence, eventually you end up "educating" your partner about little things that annoy you (and vice-versa of course).
Yes, teasing does have it's limits. But you can't make it short-term if it's one of those persistent little things, like leaving the toilet seat up. That takes a prolonged effort. Teasing does have it's limits of use, but it's very dependent upon the tease. Some thing could last for quite some time. Just little things about her that maybe amuse me. You're right: teasing really is just meant to be fun, even when it gets a point across. I also think it's one of those little intimate things that shows you care, that you pay attention to the little details, especially things that don't really matter to most people.

You can replace "psycho-bitch" with "asshole" and it would be an equally valid argument made on the part of women. What a double standard!

What double standard? I didnt say jack-shit about a double standard, nor did I say I was never an asshole to a girl I was dating.

But, hey, just stereotype me into the group of egotistical males who dont think their shit stinks...


excuse me, is that your ism, or are you just happy to see me?

at the end of the day, it's just a question of using common sense and not allowing to let the tease go too far...also, in my mind, teasing should be a quick joke type of thing. the longer the tease lasts, the more it becomes like game-playing. also, the teasing shouldn't really make your partner feel like he/she's being tested. teasing should be fun.

personally, i wouldn't tease with really serious issues, even if i do believe that teasing and joking is the best way to deal with those little things that bother us (about our partner); toilet seat down or toothpaste open type of thing. instead of moaning about those things (and bringing in negative vibes), i've always defended you should joke about them persistently. with good humour and a bit of persistence, eventually you end up "educating" your partner about little things that annoy you (and vice-versa of course).

Ahh, and that's where I interjected that little tid-bit about maturity. Knowing how far is too far and not crossing that line is what comes with maturity...

Maybe nice guys finish last because women are saving the best for last.

Maybe nice guys finish last because women are saving the best for last.
Looks like I could be waiting a while, then.:D :p

Maybe nice guys finish last because women are saving the best for last.
That was an excellent little post, and I bow to your wisdom. :D

It's an "Offensive forcepower lightside jedi" dillemma. In KOTOR, all the good offensive powers are most easily obtained by being and remaining darksided, because they're driven by anger and evil. Doesn't mean the lightsided jedi can't use forcepowers, it's just that the defensive ones such as shield and heal seem kind of wimpy compared to choking someone to death with your mind.

Basically all you have to do is find how to use force wave as a strong equivalent to a large crowd-killing technique like force storm, or learn to use it in conjunction with a well-trained lightsaber.

In reality what this means is that you have to make yourself noticed while making it clear that you're not an asshole. Making people laugh and being outspoken are ways of doing this.

Or you could go the defensive route and use things like force immunity, energy resistance, force armor and master speed to your advantage. Using these techniques can diffuse pretty much anything your enemy thinks it can do to you, and leaves it open to pretty much anything you think you can do to it.

It's up to you, really - just use the one that accents your best abilities.\

If your using Star Wars references when you talking about theories about women , im guessing "nice" isnt the reason your not getting dates.

\

If your using Star Wars references when you talking about theories about women , im guessing "nice" isnt the reason your not getting dates.

Maybe he's been smoking meth or something.

Given the chooice between a decent guy, and a wanker that will fuck them in the ass without asking and then screw their sister, most women will chhose the latter. Perhaps the audacity it takes for guys to do such things shines through all the time, making them appear charismatic when infact they are just nobs.

Given the chooice between a decent guy, and a wanker that will fuck them in the ass without asking and then screw their sister, most women will chhose the latter. Perhaps the audacity it takes for guys to do such things shines through all the time, making them appear charismatic when infact they are just nobs.


Yep, that pretty much sums it up. As I said a few pages back, too many people don't know the difference between confidence and arrogance.

Why do guys with no self confidence or strength of character always finish last?

Must be a genetic/evolutionary thing.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. As I said a few pages back, too many people don't know the difference between confidence and arrogance.

The difference between confidence and arrogance is physical attraction.

The difference between confidence and arrogance is physical attraction.
I completely disagree. I'm arrogant to people toward whom I have no physical attraction. The difference is...well, it's hard to place, but easy to identify. Ah, I have it! The difference is fear.

Yes, teasing does have it's limits. But you can't make it short-term if it's one of those persistent little things, like leaving the toilet seat up. That takes a prolonged effort. Teasing does have it's limits of use, but it's very dependent upon the tease. Some thing could last for quite some time. Just little things about her that maybe amuse me. You're right: teasing really is just meant to be fun, even when it gets a point across. I also think it's one of those little intimate things that shows you care, that you pay attention to the little details, especially things that don't really matter to most people.
Ahh, and that's where I interjected that little tid-bit about maturity. Knowing how far is too far and not crossing that line is what comes with maturity...
FD, when i said short-term i meant short lasting (in the moment) but also persistent (repeating as many times as possible). we're obviously in agreement there.

NS, i agree; maturity is vital...

i'm sure we would make a very loving triple hehehehehe.... :D (i love playing pervert if i'm not really one)

What double standard? I didnt say jack-shit about a double standard, nor did I say I was never an asshole to a girl I was dating.

But, hey, just stereotype me into the group of egotistical males who dont think their shit stinks...
Hey aren't you one of these guys complaining about how girls choose assholes?

Maybe nice guys finish last because women are saving the best for last.
That's a new theory!

FD, when i said short-term i meant short lasting (in the moment) but also persistent (repeating as many times as possible). we're obviously in agreement there.

NS, i agree; maturity is vital...

i'm sure we would make a very loving triple hehehehehe.... :D (i love playing pervert if i'm not really one)
Ah, yes. Agreement on keeping short at the moment, but a long-term campaign where applicable. *nods*

Ah, yes. Agreement on keeping short at the moment, but a long-term campaign where applicable. *nods*

I'm disappointed in you FD, its page 26 and you're only now getting started on the cybersex? I expected better from you.

Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:


Good guys don't finish last, they just run a different reace.

Look carefully -- I mean, really carefully --- at the women you're talking about. Are you telling me you'd really want to go out with them? My own experience of the kind of woman I think you're talking about --- and I was a nasty b*****d long before I decided to try and reform --- is that they aren't as great as they seem from a distance. No offence, but are you sure you're the "good guy" you think you are?

Looking back at the girls I hooked up with when I was what you'd term an "arse-hole", I wouldn't want them now, any more than they'd want me now. At least as I'm trying it (and I don't claim I'm that successful, just that I'm aiming at it), being a "good guy" starts with wanting different things from life.

The woman I've been with for the last 25+ years (and that's as close as I'm going to telling anyone how old I am!) is totally unlike any of the women I was with from my "bad boy" days, and totally perfect! If the only benefit to turning my life around turned out to be marrying this amazing woman, it's been totally worth it.

I didn't finish last. I won the grand prize. Does that mean I'm a "good guy"? I wish it did, but I suspect it just means the universe is a friendlier, more lenient place when you make the effort.

Good guys don't finish last, they just run a different reace.

Look carefully -- I mean, really carefully --- at the women you're talking about. Are you telling me you'd really want to go out with them? My own experience of the kind of woman I think you're talking about --- and I was a nasty b*****d long before I decided to try and reform --- is that they aren't as great as they seem from a distance. No offence, but are you sure you're the "good guy" you think you are?

Looking back at the girls I hooked up with when I was what you'd term an "arse-hole", I wouldn't want them now, any more than they'd want me now. At least as I'm trying it (and I don't claim I'm that successful, just that I'm aiming at it), being a "good guy" starts with wanting different things from life.

The woman I've been with for the last 25+ years (and that's as close as I'm going to telling anyone how old I am!) is totally unlike any of the women I was with from my "bad boy" days, and totally perfect! If the only benefit to turning my life around turned out to be marrying this amazing woman, it's been totally worth it.

I didn't finish last. I won the grand prize. Does that mean I'm a "good guy"? I wish it did, but I suspect it just means the universe is a friendlier, more lenient place when you make the effort.


Wow, havn't seen you around since the Chuck Norris thread went under.

Oh that is easy. Stop whining. If they know the guy is an asshole, they can get whatever it is they want from him without committing to anything. :eek:

Why do good guys finish last?

....

Because they don't vote for me on the pageant thread!!!
(My serious post was way back when).

I'm disappointed in you FD, its page 26 and you're only now getting started on the cybersex? I expected better from you.
You call that cybersex?:eek: That is nothing. When I start, you will know.

I'm disappointed in you FD, its page 26 and you're only now getting started on the cybersex? I expected better from you.
You call that cybersex?:eek: That is nothing. When I start, you will know.

You call that cybersex?:eek: That is nothing. When I start, you will know.

Well, I did say STARTING. Besides, it doesn't change the fact that its taken you this long to get even that far.

Why do good guys finish last?

....

Because they don't vote for me on the pageant thread!!!
(My serious post was way back when).
Oh, the innuendo!;)

Well, I did say STARTING. Besides, it doesn't change the fact that its taken you this long to get even that far.
But I still haven't started!:eek:

But I still haven't started!:eek:

If you don't start then you can't finish. ;)

But I still haven't started!:eek:

Ok, fine, whatever. But my point still stands. 27 pages and still on track. For shame.

If you don't start then you can't finish. ;)
I'm trying to time the whole sequence just right to capitalize on the...mood.;)

Ok, fine, whatever. But my point still stands. 27 pages and still on track. For shame.

Should I fix this for him? ;)

I'm trying to time the whole sequence just right to capitalize on the...mood.;)

Well just make sure you get to it before it climaxes and you're not there to witness it!

That would be one mess of a shame.

Ok, fine, whatever. But my point still stands. 27 pages and still on track. For shame.
Well, I need a good...test subject.;)

Should I fix this for him? ;)
Depends. Are you male or female?;)

Depends. Are you male or female?;)

I'm a puppet of a good friend whose new email is being verified...

Well, I need a good...test subject.;)

I think Raistlins Apprentice was offering ;)

EDIT- Seems you noticed already :fluffle:

Well just make sure you get to it before it climaxes and you're not there to witness it!

That would be one mess of a shame.
I'm still waiting for her to get started as well.;)

I'm a puppet of a good friend whose new email is being verified...
Oh, I know who you are. Just delaying the inevitable, savoring the moment and all.;)

I think Raistlins Apprentice was offering ;)

EDIT- Seems you noticed already :fluffle:
I notice everything but the obvious.:D :p

Oh, I know who you are. Just delaying the inevitable, savoring the moment and all.;)

Yes you are. Besides, when we're already into some intense fluffling on IM...

Yes you are. Besides, when we're already into some intense fluffling on IM...

*shock*

FD, you are fluffling others behind my back?!

*sniffle*

I'm so hurt!

Yes you are. Besides, when we're already into some intense fluffling on IM...
Which I'm also savoring.;) :cool:

*shock*

FD, you are fluffling others behind my back?!

*sniffle*

I'm so hurt!
No, you're not. You've got the Gnome. The fluffles from me were always just extra friendly to you, and you know it.
:rolleyes: Besides, we've had that discussion. *hopes he isn't too ambiguous*

Which I'm also savoring.;) :cool:

Especially now...

Especially now...
Quite so. But you seem to be doing the same at the moment.:)

Quite so. But you seem to be doing the same at the moment.:)

Well yes. :p

To answer the original question:
Why do good guys finish last?

-Not enough practice.

Well yes. :p
Good.:)

Wow, havn't seen you around since the Chuck Norris thread went under.


Hi! Yeah, I was annoyed about that. I really thought the Mods should have given that thread a break. I enjoyed it even though I didn't post as much as some others.

How you doing?

Hi! Yeah, I was annoyed about that. I really thought the Mods should have given that thread a break. I enjoyed it even though I didn't post as much as some others.

How you doing?
They've been a lot more lenient lately. I think we spammers have finally worn them down a bit.:cool:

Hi! Yeah, I was annoyed about that. I really thought the Mods should have given that thread a break. I enjoyed it even though I didn't post as much as some others.

How you doing?

Not bad. It's really a shame nothing survives long in spam. The babe thread, the Chuck Norris thread... crazy.

Then again, it all depends on the moods of the Supreme Executive Mods. I've seen some crazy spam in General recently.

Not bad. It's really a shame nothing survives long in spam. The babe thread, the Chuck Norris thread... crazy.

Then again, it all depends on the moods of the Supreme Executive Mods. I've seen some crazy spam in General recently.
Yeah, they seem distracted. I hope it lasts.
*runs back out into a hailstorm of spam*

I think Raistlins Apprentice was offering ;)

Lol, just had to say, I stumbled on this quote and thought it was related to me, because I go by raslin on most forums, and raslin's just a bad way of spelling raistlin... I'll leave now

Lol, just had to say, I stumbled on this quote and thought it was related to me, because I go by raslin on most forums, and raslin's just a bad way of spelling raistlin... I'll leave now
Nope, definitely not you.

To answer the original question:
Why do good guys finish last?

-Not enough practice.
surely that would be why they 'finish' first? :confused:

surely that would be why they 'finish' first? :confused:
Bah, ignore him. No real experience as a nice guy.;)

Not bad. It's really a shame nothing survives long in spam. The babe thread, the Chuck Norris thread... crazy.
...


Is this because when threads are moved to Spam they aren't tracked in that sind-panel thingy anymore? For certain, the thread lost momentum fast after they killed it.

I know at least one heavy poster who mourned the loss... He went on for awhile about how the Mods had "dissed" Chuck and there'd be a special place in hell for them, where they just get roundhouse kicked forever and ever and yada-yada. You can just imagine. He got over it.

Is this because when threads are moved to Spam they aren't tracked in that sind-panel thingy anymore? For certain, the thread lost momentum fast after they killed it.

I know at least one heavy poster who mourned the loss... He went on for awhile about how the Mods had "dissed" Chuck and there'd be a special place in hell for them, where they just get roundhouse kicked forever and ever and yada-yada. You can just imagine. He got over it.

Yeah, we all got over it I think.

And what's this side panel you speak of? I've heard a few people talk about it, but I really have no idea what it is.

They aren't agressive enough they let other people take what should be theirs. Which is very thoughtful and polite most of the time but sometimes they deserve something more than anybody else, and in those times they should be selfish.

They aren't agressive enough they let other people take what should be theirs. Which is very thoughtful and polite most of the time but sometimes they deserve something more than anybody else, and in those times they should be selfish.
:eek: People are still posting on-topic here!?

:eek: People are still posting on-topic here!?

Crazy hobos...

Yeah, we all got over it I think.

And what's this side panel you speak of? I've heard a few people talk about it, but I really have no idea what it is.


When I log in as my nation, on the left is a vertical frame that has the Jennifer Government logo on top. Under that is my nation's name, then "issues", "telegrams", "dossier", "settings", "logout", my region, "the world", "united nations", "news", "faq", "about" and "forum".

Then under that is "latest threads" followed by the half-dozen most active threads. AFAIK once a thread is moved to spam it can't appear there.

They aren't agressive enough they let other people take what should be theirs. Which is very thoughtful and polite most of the time but sometimes they deserve something more than anybody else, and in those times they should be selfish.


The trouble is, if you start trying to be selfish for those special "sometimes" when you think you "deserve something more than anybody else", it's not long before you fall into the trap of thinking you "deserve something more than anybody else" more and more, and eventually all the time. You become selfish inside yourself, which is another way of saying you stop being a nice guy.

It's like anything else where you want to live by a rule or an ideal. Once you start making exceptions, it becomes hard to to stop, because exceptions are a matter of opinion and self-gratification soon warps our opinions to become more and more self-serving. In the end it's just not worth it.

Crazy hobos...
Better than bums.:eek:
*shudders*
They're creepy!

:eek: People are still posting on-topic here!?
They should really learn the rules, eh? :p

Better than bums.:eek:
*shudders*
They're creepy!
Especially a boat full of bums...http://www.aspsmiley.com/smiley/smilies/highfive.gif

They should really learn the rules, eh? :p
What, these rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11114245&postcount=680)?;)

Especially a boat full of bums...http://www.aspsmiley.com/smiley/smilies/highfive.gif
I figured you'd notice that.:cool:

What, these rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11114245&postcount=680)?;)
Yup, those are the rules :p

Yup, those are the rules :p
Indeed.:cool:

The trouble is, if you start trying to be selfish for those special "sometimes" when you think you "deserve something more than anybody else", it's not long before you fall into the trap of thinking you "deserve something more than anybody else" more and more, and eventually all the time. You become selfish inside yourself, which is another way of saying you stop being a nice guy.

It's like anything else where you want to live by a rule or an ideal. Once you start making exceptions, it becomes hard to to stop, because exceptions are a matter of opinion and self-gratification soon warps our opinions to become more and more self-serving. In the end it's just not worth it.

*attacks with cotton plug*
:p

It's because women are silly!

*runs*

It's because women are silly!

*runs*
Stupid feminists.

Personally I never got the impression 'good guys' finished last. I see plenty of 'good guys' with 'good girls' all the time.
And even if 'good guys' finish last, it might be because they're pickier, and not willing to settle for 'decent girls' or 'acceptable girls'.

It's because women are silly!

*runs*
No, silliness is sexy. It's really because society is evil. *nods*

I find that good guys actually tend to finish first. Within about a minute or two, to be precise. It can get frustrating... :p

I find that good guys actually tend to finish first. Within about a minute or two, to be precise. It can get frustrating... :p
Well, if you'd give us more practice, it might not be so bad.:p ;)

Well, if you'd give us more practice, it might not be so bad.:p ;)

Haha! Cute. Actually, almost every guy I've dated has been a pretty decent guy, AND they manage to hold on to things for a fairly long time, if you know what I mean.

...EXCEPT FOR THE GUY WHO TOLD ME I SHOULD WEAR MORE MAKEUP AND DEMONSTRATED ON HIS OWN FACE. AND MASTURBATES WITH TWO PILLOWS. I won't say his name here cause his dad died pretty recently so I wouldn't want to be shitty and let him find his name on this random forum.

Haha! Cute. Actually, almost every guy I've dated has been a pretty decent guy, AND they manage to hold on to things for a fairly long time, if you know what I mean.

...EXCEPT FOR THE GUY WHO TOLD ME I SHOULD WEAR MORE MAKEUP AND DEMONSTRATED ON HIS OWN FACE. AND MASTURBATES WITH TWO PILLOWS. I won't say his name here cause his dad died pretty recently so I wouldn't want to be shitty and let him find his name on this random forum.
Yeah, I'm told I'm cute every now and then. But only by women who haven't actually seen me:p ...and a couple who have. But I really don't know how long I could "hold on." No experience with it. *shrugs*

Yeah, I'm told I'm cute every now and then. But only by women who haven't actually seen me:p ...and a couple who have. But I really don't know how long I could "hold on." No experience with it. *shrugs*

You're a virgin? Cute! Well, let's all see what a cute, nice-guy virgin looks like? (I thought you were extinct.)

You're a virgin? Cute! Well, let's all see what a cute, nice-guy virgin looks like? (I thought you were extinct.)
See? Told you women call me cute sometimes...especially if they haven't seen me.:p Extinct!?:eek: What gave you that idea!? Peeches thought I was 35, but sheesh...extinct....I'm 18....Why would you think I was ancient?

Wow, this thread is still going?

And it's even remotely on-topic!

You're a virgin? Cute! Well, let's all see what a cute, nice-guy virgin looks like? (I thought you were extinct.)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005JNZS.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Why do good guys finish last?
Because they insist on holding the door. Never hold the door people! Everyone will suddenly find the other side of that door very appealing if you do.

Ah, yes, good guys DO finish last, don't they? But then again, this isn't a race :p . So while the "Bad dudes" are doing drugs and screwing their life up, the nice guy waits to find his perfect match. So in the end, the good guy wins, is more of what I think the saying really is.

Having entirely not read the whole thread....
Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys do quite well in fact. Pushovers who don't have their own opinions or interests or personality, who don't like themselves, finish last. Be your own person. Have your own interests. Be nice, but within reason. (don't postpone major surgery to help someone move, for example.) Most of all, learn to like yourself or be someone you can like. Cos if you're not happy with yourself, you'll never be happy in a relationship, and no one will be able to be happy with you.

Wow, this thread is still going?

And it's even remotely on-topic!
Scary, isn't it?:eek:

Scary, isn't it?:eek:
indeed...quite

My guess is because they usually lack a sense of humour. Then again... then they'd be funny guys, not nice guys... Nicely funny guys? Also, nice guys seem to treat women as, well, goddesses, and goddesses are hard things to be, I hear.

Also, it could be that nice guys are so nice, they aren't quite human... because no human is nice all the time.

Edit: I think the moral is, 'nice is nice, but don't be TOO nice.'

indeed...quite
Especially coming from me (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11261331&postcount=794).:eek:

My guess is because they usually lack a sense of humour. Then again... then they'd be funny guys, not nice guys... Nicely funny guys? Also, nice guys seem to treat women as, well, goddesses, and goddesses are hard things to be, I hear.

Also, it could be that nice guys are so nice, they aren't quite human... because no human is nice all the time.

Edit: I think the moral is, 'nice is nice, but don't be TOO nice.'
I think you misunderstand what a "nice guy" is. They aren't nice all the time. They just don't abuse drugs and alcohol and treat women like objects. I'm not saying they don't use drugs and alcohol and occasionally make a little mistake and have too much. That does happen, but generally to a lesser or nonexistant degree.

And it really isn't that hard for a woman to be a goddess. All she has to do is be herself. A man shouldn't find her a goddess for any other reason.

I think you misunderstand what a "nice guy" is. They aren't nice all the time. They just don't abuse drugs and alcohol and treat women like objects. I'm not saying they don't use drugs and alcohol and occasionally make a little mistake and have too much. That does happen, but generally to a lesser or nonexistant degree.

And it really isn't that hard for a woman to be a goddess. All she has to do is be herself. A man shouldn't find her a goddess for any other reason.

Tis actually quite easy for a woman to be a goddess for some of us.

SIMPLE CHECKLIST:(tick where appropriate)
Are you:
-Female? [ ]
-Warm? [ ]
-Between 13 and 89? [ ]

Did you just check me out? [ ]

0-3 Sorry, you don't make Goddess. I'm sure some people still love you though.

4? Congrats, you are a Goddess.

Tis actually quite easy for a woman to be a goddess for some of us.

SIMPLE CHECKLIST:(tick where appropriate)
Are you:
-Female? [ ]
-Warm? [ ]
-Between 13 and 89? [ ]

Did you just check me out? [ ]

0-3 Sorry, you don't make Goddess. I'm sure some people still love you though.

4? Congrats, you are a Goddess.
I wouldn't mind if she happened to be cold at the moment, but alive, if that's what you mean. But then, a lot of people might mistake what it is for a woman to be a goddess.

*attacks with cotton plug*
:p

What'd I do? :confused:

What'd I do? :confused:
:eek:

What'd I do? :confused:

You posted on topic, foo'!






ARGH! SO DID I!

nice guys finish last compared to who? The man that got the girl they fancied?

I think that self confessed 'nice' guys consider themselves nicer than the bloke the girl they want ended up with - so they think they finished last - when she probably just prefered him over you because of your foot fungus or something *shrug*

Is this thing still around? Man, I'm starting to think the reason they 'finish last' is because they spend all this time bitching...

Is this thing still around? Man, I'm starting to think the reason they 'finish last' is because they spend all this time bitching... And you very likely would be right. :p

Tis actually quite easy for a woman to be a goddess for some of us.

SIMPLE CHECKLIST:(tick where appropriate)
Are you:
-Female? [ ]
-Warm? [ ]
-Between 13 and 89? [ ]

Did you just check me out? [ ]

0-3 Sorry, you don't make Goddess. I'm sure some people still love you though.

4? Congrats, you are a Goddess.
Interesting age range you chose there. Currently I wouldn't want anyone outside the 18-25 range, but that's probably because I'm 19.

My theory on this is that girls like to change a man. The like to see a man who's a total dick and believe he has some good in him and its there job to find it. Basicially noones perfect and evryone has a bit of a dark side. If you meet someone and they seem nice you know the worse is yet to come, if they seem like arseholes then you know it cant get any worse so they feel more secure. Anyone else?

Interesting age range you chose there. Currently I wouldn't want anyone outside the 18-25 range, but that's probably because I'm 19.

maybe he isnt picky

:p

My theory on this is that girls like to change a man. The like to see a man who's a total dick and believe he has some good in him and its there job to find it. Basicially noones perfect and evryone has a bit of a dark side. If you meet someone and they seem nice you know the worse is yet to come, if they seem like arseholes then you know it cant get any worse so they feel more secure. Anyone else?
Uh.... no.
If I think a guy's a jerk, I'm not gonna date him. I think you'd have to have something quite wrong with you to date someone you dislike so that you can change them. Seriously.
And I'd also really hate to have such a cynical view of the world that I assume everyone's an arsehole, it's just that some hide it behind a pretense of niceness.

My theory on this is that girls like to change a man. The like to see a man who's a total dick and believe he has some good in him and its there job to find it. Basicially noones perfect and evryone has a bit of a dark side. If you meet someone and they seem nice you know the worse is yet to come, if they seem like arseholes then you know it cant get any worse so they feel more secure. Anyone else?

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

You seem to have missed my point. Just saying noones perfect. I'm not a cynic, im somewhere in between. Everyone has weaknesses. If you see them right away they have less to hide.

You seem to have missed my point. Just saying noones perfect. I'm not a cynic, im somewhere in between. Everyone has weaknesses. If you see them right away they have less to hide.
I'm sorry, but if you're the type of person who meets someone nice and simply thinks "oh, the worst is yet to come" thats a really crappy attitude IMO (in the sense of one I'd hate to have) and I'm pretty damn sure it counts at cynical.
Yeah, no-one's perfect. That's realistic. Realistic also includes weighing up the good and the bad and appreciating both.

My theory on this is that girls like to change a man. The like to see a man who's a total dick and believe he has some good in him and its there job to find it. Basicially noones perfect and evryone has a bit of a dark side. If you meet someone and they seem nice you know the worse is yet to come, if they seem like arseholes then you know it cant get any worse so they feel more secure. Anyone else?
You should probably assess woman indvidually and not based on cliched stand up comedy routines/sitcom plots. Women want to change men...sheesh, man. What's next? Complain about airline food? Compare New York and LA?

I didnt say all women wanted to change men although i have heard quite afew women saying things like "i think deep down he's jsut a sweetheart and i'll find out". Maybe this has been used in Seinfeld or whatever doesnt mean it isn't true. Your both looking at it at a very basic level. Obviously you dont blatantly think "this guys an arsehole so i need to find his good side" but subconciously people might think well at least he isnt holding back and if there is anything else bad about him it wont be hiding for long. How many times have you met someone who you thought was nice for the first 5 minutes but as you got to know them you found out they weren't so nice? Trust me I'm not a cynic, when i meet someone for the first time i take everything they say with a pinch of salt, whether they seem like arseholes (they might be putting it on) or seem really nice (also they might be putting it on). Its always worked for me.

I didnt say all women wanted to change men although i have heard quite afew women saying things like "i think deep down he's jsut a sweetheart and i'll find out". Maybe this has been used in Seinfeld or whatever doesnt mean it isn't true. Your both looking at it at a very basic level. Obviously you dont blatantly think "this guys an arsehole so i need to find his good side" but subconciously people might think well at least he isnt holding back and if there is anything else bad about him it wont be hiding for long. How many times have you met someone who you thought was nice for the first 5 minutes but as you got to know them you found out they weren't so nice? Trust me I'm not a cynic, when i meet someone for the first time i take everything they say with a pinch of salt, whether they seem like arseholes (they might be putting it on) or seem really nice (also they might be putting it on). Its always worked for me.
You can't say "Women want to change men" and then accuse us of looking at it on a basic level, especially when the meat of the comment is that you have to look at women individually.

When someone is a dick, their a dick. I don't think "That's as big a dick as they can get, so we're good." I think that thier a dick. The magnitude of thier dickishness can be measuered over time, but a dick it is largely irrelevant. If the first time I meet someone they kick a puppy and swipe a lollipop from a baby I have to say that it doesn't even cross my mind that "Well, that's the worst it's going to get. He's probably nice to his mother." I keep my pets and candy away from them and move on.

Likewise if someone gives me half thier sandwich 'cause I look hungry I don't think, "Puppy kicker." It's counter-intuitive and robs me of a free half a sandwich.

yeah i said that "women like to change men" because the questions was a basic question and i couldnt be bothered messing about with the PC crap or it would have sounded like "sometimes women maybe like to sometimes change men possibly" would that have been better? I said it was a theory, you cant take it as me saying it was a definite rule for every woman. Although its an easier way to win an argument by taking it a totally different way.

If you were a women (dunno if you are or not) and you met some guy who was acting abit macho but you had a feeling he was putting it on because maybe he did 1 little nice thing for you (eg. gave you his chair to sit on) then you might find it more attractive than a man who is constantly too nice and buying you drinks constantly and complimenting you coz you might think he's up to something. Try and look at my argument without putting it into an extreme conttext which i can see is your method of arguing.

i try to live up to a girls expectations and they shoot me down

its all about culture
i blame democrasy and the fact that moral standards have dropped since world war one

girls call each other bitches and hoes

im idsgusted by what i see and intend to put a stop to it


IM TALKIN REVOLUTION MOHA

:mp5:
:mp5:
:confused: :mp5:
:mp5:
:mp5:

yeah i said that "women like to change men" because the questions was a basic question and i couldnt be bothered messing about with the PC crap or it would have sounded like "sometimes women maybe like to sometimes change men possibly" would that have been better? I said it was a theory, you cant take it as me saying it was a definite rule for every woman. Although its an easier way to win an argument by taking it a totally different way.

If you were a women (dunno if you are or not) and you met some guy who was acting abit macho but you had a feeling he was putting it on because maybe he did 1 little nice thing for you (eg. gave you his chair to sit on) then you might find it more attractive than a man who is constantly too nice and buying you drinks constantly and complimenting you coz you might think he's up to something. Try and look at my argument without putting it into an extreme conttext which i can see is your method of arguing.
Look dude, if you'd look through the thread you'd see that there is a sense that the question itself is crap, and my initial response is related to that.

If the question is "Why do balloons sink" it's a crap question and unless your argument is "balloons don't sink" the argument is going to be crap. Even though you can come up with a scenario where balloons sink, it's still a crap question. I'm looking at your argument, dude, and I'm not putting it in extremes, I'm making fun of it because your trying to explain why balloons sink.

Its not a balloons sinking scenario but you mentioned that so many times all i can think about is f*cking balloons. I have heard quite afew girls saying they go for rough tough type guys. Even some girls saying they go for arrogant types. It tends to be younger girls but you cant deny that it happens just because you dont do it.

Its not a balloons sinking scenario but you mentioned that so many times all i can think about is f*cking balloons. I have heard quite afew girls saying they go for rough tough type guys. Even some girls saying they go for arrogant types. It tends to be younger girls but you cant deny that it happens just because you dont do it.
Well, I'm not a chick, so what I do wouldn't effect the statistics.

Lead filled balloons sink, doesn't save the "Why do balloons sink" from being a crap question.

Ok so women who go for bad men are lead filled balloons. I'm glad i learnt something from this. Although we seemed to have reached some kind of compromise. got to go now.

lol - what the hell is a "good guy"

We're all humans here lads!

I've always liked this picture:

http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/dysfunction.jpg

And you very likely would be right. :p
This almost begs the "But...." statement, so here goes::p
But....but..........umm.....but....
*kicks CTOAN's shin and runs away*

Uh.... no.
If I think a guy's a jerk, I'm not gonna date him. I think you'd have to have something quite wrong with you to date someone you dislike so that you can change them. Seriously.
And I'd also really hate to have such a cynical view of the world that I assume everyone's an arsehole, it's just that some hide it behind a pretense of niceness.
So you disapprove of my assumption that humanity is inherently evil?:(

:p

This almost begs the "But...." statement, so here goes::p
But....but..........umm.....but....
*kicks CTOAN's shin and runs away*
See, this is why I wear boots.

I didnt say all women wanted to change men although i have heard quite afew women saying things like "i think deep down he's jsut a sweetheart and i'll find out". Maybe this has been used in Seinfeld or whatever doesnt mean it isn't true. Your both looking at it at a very basic level. Obviously you dont blatantly think "this guys an arsehole so i need to find his good side" but subconciously people might think well at least he isnt holding back and if there is anything else bad about him it wont be hiding for long. How many times have you met someone who you thought was nice for the first 5 minutes but as you got to know them you found out they weren't so nice? Trust me I'm not a cynic, when i meet someone for the first time i take everything they say with a pinch of salt, whether they seem like arseholes (they might be putting it on) or seem really nice (also they might be putting it on). Its always worked for me.
I never seem very nice to most people, not even after the first five minutes. But that could just be my pessimistic bias....

See, this is why I wear boots.
*kicks you in the face*

Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

The sad thing is, this doesn't apply just to straight guys either. I'm gay and consider myself a "good guy" too, and I never seem to get the guys I want.

*kicks you in the face*
You know, these boots do have metal in them[/parroting kids I used to go to high school with who'd act like steel toe boots turned them into superheroes...]

I cant believe this thread is still alive.

You know, these boots do have metal in them[/parroting kids I used to go to high school with who'd act like steel toe boots turned them into superheroes...]
And I didn't run away again!:eek:
*flees*

I cant believe this thread is still alive.
*pumps Water of Life into thread's veins*

If you were a women (dunno if you are or not) and you met some guy who was acting abit macho but you had a feeling he was putting it on because maybe he did 1 little nice thing for you (eg. gave you his chair to sit on) then you might find it more attractive than a man who is constantly too nice and buying you drinks constantly and complimenting you coz you might think he's up to something. Try and look at my argument without putting it into an extreme conttext which i can see is your method of arguing.
I'm a woman and I'd just think the guy's an idiot if he thinks he needs to act "macho" (something I've no idea how is ever conceived desirable) because he's done something nice.... What's the logic behind that? "Oh no, I've done something girly so I better cancel it out by doing something manly!" Argh, I'm getting angry just thinking about it....

Someone who's fake or over-friendly, sure, that's not good.
But acting like a jerk or acting "macho" is not a better option IMO.
Plus, you can simply have a person who is nice... You say we're taking things to extremes but actually that's you.
In fact, everybody is a slightly different mix of characteristics.

I never seem very nice to most people, not even after the first five minutes. But that could just be my pessimistic bias....
I was thinking of this self-deselection (theres a better word for that but whatever) a few days ago. I was driving on the freeway and this car was riding right next to me even though traffic wasn't that heavy. I looked over and it was a kinda nice looking chick who had that forced "I'm not looking" thing going on. We'd both bob and weave in traffic but she always seemed near my van (and I wasn't in the cool van either, I was in the Lego). There was a window where I would either stay with her or rocket ahead and join another pack. There was a chance that one of the three things where happening. 1) I was the only one playing this game and she didn't even notice this big white van orbiting her (likely) and her constant proximity was a coincidence.(likely) 2) She had noticed the white van and she had been trying subtly to shake it and this latest lane change was her strongest attempt. 3)She was playing along and she was pulling into that lane to give me a chance to catch back up.

I took option 2 and bailed. Now, in this situation really nothing was at stake. I was on my way to a job and don't happen to have those rims that light up and give people your phone number and yelling out "XXX-YETI!!!" wasn't going to work (yep, the last four digits spell out Yeti. I know, I'm totally cool...) nor was I going to be able to flick a business card in her window. But there have been occasions where I've hit that decision point and opted for the pessimistic of the set. I think it stems from that high school fear of not looking like an ass. I'm way older now and know that it really doesn't fucking matter-if someone isn't into you thats just the way things go and if their an ass about it then really that's just a dodged bullet because, well, that person is an ass. But that time in my life where I was supposed to stumble to get used to it I spent uptight about looking like an ass. And what a waste, I don't even like those people much less am around them anymore. So I still have this stupid reflex to assume chicks are put off by me and select myself out because I couldn't get over myself in high school. That's not women's fault, nothing to do with this nice guy crap but everything to do with being up my own ass.

So the moral of the tale, if there is one, is if you're young now-you're not learning how to run so much as you're learning how to fall, which in a lot of ways is more important. Not every chick is going to be into you. Hell, if you really think about it most chicks aren't going to be into you just like you're not into every chick you meet. Learn to deal early or you'll be fucking up a perfectly good flirt in traffic later in life.

I cant believe this thread is still alive.
Well I can't believe it's not butter!

To keep the bad girls coming back.:D

I'm a woman and I'd just think the guy's an idiot if he thinks he needs to act "macho" (something I've no idea how is ever conceived desirable) because he's done something nice.... What's the logic behind that? "Oh no, I've done something girly so I better cancel it out by doing something manly!" Argh, I'm getting angry just thinking about it....

Someone who's fake or over-friendly, sure, that's not good.
But acting like a jerk or acting "macho" is not a better option IMO.
Plus, you can simply have a person who is nice... You say we're taking things to extremes but actually that's you.
In fact, everybody is a slightly different mix of characteristics.
LOL You're so cute when you're frustrated. PM is so lucky to have you.:p

Its not a balloons sinking scenario but you mentioned that so many times all i can think about is f*cking balloons. I have heard quite afew girls saying they go for rough tough type guys. Even some girls saying they go for arrogant types. It tends to be younger girls but you cant deny that it happens just because you dont do it.
quite a few girls =/= all girls
quite a few girls =/= the majority of girls
quite a few girls =/= an even remotely significant amount of girls
some girls =/= all girls
some girls =/= the majority of girls
some girls =/= an even remotely significant amount of girls

So your point really is worthless and means very little.

LOL You're so cute when you're frustrated. PM is so lucky to have you.:p
hehe she's even better in person ;) :p

(and yes, i am :) :fluffle: )

So you disapprove of my assumption that humanity is inherently evil?:(

:p
Not so much disapprove as pity having that kind of view....

quite a few girls =/= all girls
quite a few girls =/= the majority of girls
quite a few girls =/= an even remotely significant amount of girls
some girls =/= all girls
some girls =/= the majority of girls
some girls =/= an even remotely significant amount of girls

So your point really is worthless and means very little.
I was thinking something like "I don't trust your sampling method" but that'll do.

I was thinking of this self-deselection (theres a better word for that but whatever) a few days ago. I was driving on the freeway and this car was riding right next to me even though traffic wasn't that heavy. I looked over and it was a kinda nice looking chick who had that forced "I'm not looking" thing going on. We'd both bob and weave in traffic but she always seemed near my van (and I wasn't in the cool van either, I was in the Lego). There was a window where I would either stay with her or rocket ahead and join another pack. There was a chance that one of the three things where happening. 1) I was the only one playing this game and she didn't even notice this big white van orbiting her (likely) and her constant proximity was a coincidence.(likely) 2) She had noticed the white van and she had been trying subtly to shake it and this latest lane change was her strongest attempt. 3)She was playing along and she was pulling into that lane to give me a chance to catch back up.

I took option 2 and bailed. Now, in this situation really nothing was at stake. I was on my way to a job and don't happen to have those rims that light up and give people your phone number and yelling out "XXX-YETI!!!" wasn't going to work (yep, the last four digits spell out Yeti. I know, I'm totally cool...) nor was I going to be able to flick a business card in her window. But there have been occasions where I've hit that decision point and opted for the pessimistic of the set. I think it stems from that high school fear of not looking like an ass. I'm way older now and know that it really doesn't fucking matter-if someone isn't into you thats just the way things go and if their an ass about it then really that's just a dodged bullet because, well, that person is an ass. But that time in my life where I was supposed to stumble to get used to it I spent uptight about looking like an ass. And what a waste, I don't even like those people much less am around them anymore. So I still have this stupid reflex to assume chicks are put off by me and select myself out because I couldn't get over myself in high school. That's not women's fault, nothing to do with this nice guy crap but everything to do with being up my own ass.

So the moral of the tale, if there is one, is if you're young now-you're not learning how to run so much as you're learning how to fall, which in a lot of ways is more important. Not every chick is going to be into you. Hell, if you really think about it most chicks aren't going to be into you just like you're not into every chick you meet. Learn to deal early or you'll be fucking up a perfectly good flirt in traffic later in life.
LOL I like the moral, something you dont' hear everyday: "Learn to deal early or you'll be fucking up a perfectly good flirt in traffic later in life." Yeah, I don't really hold any expectations for women I meet. I just see what they're like and if they're interested. I've always been aware that most aren't interested in me. After all, I'm eccentric, not very "macho" and well, I'm eccentric.;) But that doesn't stop me from having a good flirt. It's all a bit of fun.

hehe she's even better in person ;) :p

(and yes, i am :) :fluffle: )
I imagine so. Most of us are. Not Ruffy or Czardas:p , but most of us. I'm prolly not, but I doubt many NSers will ever meet me.

And of course you are. We're talking Glitzy here. You're both very fortunate in that regard.

But there have been occasions where I've hit that decision point and opted for the pessimistic of the set. I think it stems from that high school fear of not looking like an ass. I'm way older now and know that it really doesn't fucking matter-if someone isn't into you thats just the way things go and if their an ass about it then really that's just a dodged bullet because, well, that person is an ass.
I was just about to say that I know that, too, but knowing something and acting accordingly are two very different kinds of things, at least for me.
And then I read on and lo and behold:
But that time in my life where I was supposed to stumble to get used to it I spent uptight about looking like an ass. And what a waste, I don't even like those people much less am around them anymore. So I still have this stupid reflex to assume chicks are put off by me and select myself out because I couldn't get over myself in high school. That's not women's fault, nothing to do with this nice guy crap but everything to do with being up my own ass.
I mean, isn't that normal? Well, maybe not, but I'm totally like that. Making an ass out of myself in any kind of situation, but especially in that kind, is my worst nightmare. So of course I would always prefer to err on the side of caution.
Actually, when I got older, I also got more impatient in the dating department and erred on the side of risking it, and sometimes it worked out well, sometimes it didn't - but of course the times it didn't stay in your memory much more deeply and stronger. Meh.