NationStates Jolt Archive


Why do good guys finish last?

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Zilam
21-06-2006, 19:43
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
Keruvalia
21-06-2006, 19:46
Anyone have an answer?:confused:

As a certified rebel "bad-boy" type, I can't help ya there.

Buy a motorcycle. You can be a "nice guy" with 5 o'clock shadow and a leather jacket, you know.

Lastly, I'm not too sure we should lump men in to one of two categories. We're a very diverse bunch. In my experience, women don't like assholes. Not for long anyway.
Dakini
21-06-2006, 19:46
My bf isn't a dickish arse-hole.

He's wonderful and treats me well and makes me happy. :D


Unlike my ex.
Quandary
21-06-2006, 19:46
It's actually a myth. Most women, like most men, learn. And nice need not equate with boring. Given the choice between a guy with mere delusions of grandeur and a guy who really does have something to offer and also happens to be nice, guess who she'll choose.

And women can be helped out of abusive relationships if they allow it.
Laerod
21-06-2006, 19:47
You can't be too nice, or the fish won't bite. Sometimes being bad seems akin to being confident to women, or something in that direction.
The blessed Chris
21-06-2006, 19:47
Because:

-they have no mysterious allure
-they don't constitute a challenge
- good guys, sorry, but you're generally boring.
Free shepmagans
21-06-2006, 19:48
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
A person that can and does anything to support himself, even to the detrement of others is more likely to do anything for his family, even to the detrement of others. It simply ensures more of the woman's DNA will survive. [My theory]
23Eris
21-06-2006, 19:50
Uhm, no.

I see these nice guy threads all the time in various places. The problem is 'nice guys' always seem to be the guys that never take initiative. They never act act all aggressive, totally passive and seem to want to wait till we fall for you.

Guess what, maybe some girl does really like you, but she is afraid to say or do something. Yes this is 2006, yes the traditional roles and rules of dating are blurred, but most women don't want to be the one to make the first move.

Get off your butt and get out there. Good luck. ;)
Deep Kimchi
21-06-2006, 19:52
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
Not this again.

You're hanging out with the wrong women.
Willamena
21-06-2006, 19:55
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
Ooh! I actually know this one...

We perceive things, but our brains also occasionally make connections between unrelated things that coincide time-wise, and feed that back to the conscious mind as a "meaning" for the event of their coincidence. This can be a very useful skill, producing omens that guide us towards better understanding of events and relationships, but it can also be a nuisance, or even harmful, when the omen is assumed to be something objectively real.

So the answer is, women don't really prefer bad guys over good guys. It just seems that way, sometimes.
Quandary
21-06-2006, 19:55
Because:

-they have no mysterious allure
-they don't constitute a challenge
- good guys, sorry, but you're generally boring.

Sometimes I think people just live in very small worlds.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 19:56
You can't be too nice, or the fish won't bite. Sometimes being bad seems akin to being confident to women, or something in that direction.
Well, it depends.

I hate mean, bragging, full-of-themselves assholes as much as the next person and would take a nice guy over them any day.

Yet I also have been guilty of falling for more "complicated, dark, mysterious, bad" guys. Personally (!! i.e. I'm not speaking for all women here, okay? Just for my own li'l self) I have found that what attracts me is most likely the delusion that only *I*, of all people, really know his real self (aka rough exterior, heart of gold).

Yeah, I don't know either. :rolleyes:
Laerod
21-06-2006, 19:58
Well, it depends.

I hate mean, bragging, full-of-themselves assholes as much as the next person and would take a nice guy over them any day.

Yet I also have been guilty of falling for more "complicated, dark, mysterious, bad" guys. Personally (!! i.e. I'm not speaking for all women here, okay? Just for my own li'l self) I have found that what attracts me is most likely the delusion that only *I*, of all people, really know his real self (aka rough exterior, heart of gold).

Yeah, I don't know either. :rolleyes:Well, if you go by the traditional Greek concept of virtue, confidence would be the middle ground between arrogance and lack of self esteem. That's what I was bowling at.
The blessed Chris
21-06-2006, 20:00
Sometimes I think people just live in very small worlds.

I go to a Grammar School. The distinction is magnified greatly.
Grape-eaters
21-06-2006, 20:00
Because...they suck. And by "they" I mean everyone. Quite literally. So what, in essence, I am saying, is that you suck. And so do all women who tend to like "bad guys" better.

Good luck.
Quandary
21-06-2006, 20:01
Ooh! I actually know this one...

We perceive things, but our brains also occasionally make connections between unrelated things that coincide time-wise, and feed that back to the conscious mind as a "meaning" for the event of their coincidence. This can be a very useful skill, producing omens that guide us towards better understanding of events and relationships, but it can also be a nuisance, or even harmful, when the omen is assumed to be something objectively real.

So the answer is, women don't really prefer bad guys over good guys. It just seems that way, sometimes.

Now that is a good answer!
Zilam
21-06-2006, 20:02
Actually this isn't a personal problem of my own. I just have noticed this amongst my lady friends, people I work with, and just the general population of my town.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 20:05
Well, if you go by the traditional Greek concept of virtue, confidence would be the middle ground between arrogance and lack of self esteem. That's what I was bowling at.
Gah, yeah, you're right - I kind of only read your first sentence. The second one Sometimes being bad seems akin to being confident to women, or something in that direction is obviously much more relevant. I, at least, can, partly and at times, recognize myself in that.
Pride and Prejudice
21-06-2006, 20:06
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

Sometimes there is more to the issue than seems apparent. There is one guy who is really nice and a basic "good guy". However, he has a temper due to some crap that happened in his life. He wants to go out with me. I don't want to go out with him. Why? I'm afraid of that temper. :/
And he'd definitely qualify himself as a "good guy" which he mostly is.
Deep Kimchi
21-06-2006, 20:09
I've noticed that women want men who are strong, but not scary. Smart, but not annoyingly so. Adventurous, but not jackass stupid. You can be a nice guy, but not be strong "enough" or adventurous "enough".

Women want a man who is confident, but not overly so. A lot of so-called "nice guys" have little or no confidence.
Pompous world
21-06-2006, 20:13
bad guys, well i guess you could construe them to be "alpha males" which Ive heard holds an attraction for most women in the context of evolution etc.
Cannot think of a name
21-06-2006, 20:15
Well, it depends.

I hate mean, bragging, full-of-themselves assholes as much as the next person and would take a nice guy over them any day.

Yet I also have been guilty of falling for more "complicated, dark, mysterious, bad" guys. Personally (!! i.e. I'm not speaking for all women here, okay? Just for my own li'l self) I have found that what attracts me is most likely the delusion that only *I*, of all people, really know his real self (aka rough exterior, heart of gold).

Yeah, I don't know either. :rolleyes:
Ah, bless that delusion. If it wheren't for that I'd never get nothin'...

Maybe you're a noodle, OPer...

I for some reason get to watch a lot of these guys who do this kind of bitching around the women they're into and somethings pop up. Now, usuaully I wouldn't take such an source to draw such conclusions, but since we're doing it anyway...

They often come off as:
- Needy. Now, I can't speak for chicks, but I can't say that I want to be someones life line to that degree. If things don't work out I don't want to be stuck in the position of being responsible for some spazzes suicide attempts. There's a weird dance that goes into getting together that I will oversimplify into this: "Hey, you. Chase me." In this, "Pick me up and carry me" doesn't work so well.
- Timid. Dude, I get it. All that "I don't want to be hurt" or whatever. For me it's more I don't like being embarrassed that way, though I can take it in other cricumstances. But dig-there's only so long people are willing to spend coaxing that cat out from under the car to pet it before they say 'Screw it" and pet the one that's already there.
- All or nothing. No attraction is too small. Every chick is the Venus, the ideal. If she doesn't love me than my life is a meaningless endevor. Romanticism tells us this should work, that she should be flattered. But when you just met it's creepy. Even if you've known each other for a while too much can be just that, too much. It's creepy, you go from knight in shinning armor to someone who is keeping hair clippings and going through their trash for keepsakes.

I could go on, but they're all more or less related. I have to admit that while I've never blamed women for not dating me, I've fallen into a few of these traps in my life and the times where I've just relaxed and had a good time and didn't stress this crap, BAM! got me someone who will let me touch 'em funny.

It's not woman kinds fault for you not getting any. They aren't obligated to dole out the goodies to everybody, just like it's not a fishes fault if you don't catch any of them by haning a note on a hook that asks if they'd please jump on the boat.
Otherdream
21-06-2006, 20:15
Maybe it's just my imagination, but we all seem to be looking for perfection in others to make up for ourselves, or at least the qualities we don't have. Me, myself, I wouldn't want to go out with a "bad guy" because it seems childish to me. I'd just want someone who knows me well-- not his motorcycle, me.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 20:17
Sometimes there is more to the issue than seems apparent. There is one guy who is really nice and a basic "good guy". However, he has a temper due to some crap that happened in his life. He wants to go out with me. I don't want to go out with him. Why? I'm afraid of that temper. :/
And he'd definitely qualify himself as a "good guy" which he mostly is.
Now *that* is most definitely true, and it's something nobody ever seems to think about.

Almost all of my relationships have been with "nice guys". But these guys had just as many "issues" (doesn't even have to be a temper, can be anything) as anybody else, and those really can fuck a relationship up (just as my own issues can, obviously).

So it's not like just because you pick "the nice guy" you'd be guaranteed a life of sunshine and spring flowers, and if you pick the "bad guy", you'd end up a battered wife.

Plus, let's face it, it's usually not a choice between "lovable next-door nerd" or "leather-clad scar-faced motorcycle guy". It's really just a question of degree.

And really, many so-called "nice guys" can be complete assholes I wouldn't want anything to do with. Note: being an asshole doesn't make you "bad", it just means you suck.
The Blaatschapen
21-06-2006, 20:18
bad guys, well i guess you could construe them to be "alpha males" which Ive heard holds an attraction for most women in the context of evolution etc.

Then why do nice guys still exist? Shouldn't they be extinct by now thanks to the forces of evolution? :p
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 20:19
I've noticed that women want men who are strong, but not scary. Smart, but not annoyingly so. Adventurous, but not jackass stupid. You can be a nice guy, but not be strong "enough" or adventurous "enough".

Women want a man who is confident, but not overly so. A lot of so-called "nice guys" have little or no confidence.

Why, this marks the second time I agree with Deep Kimchi today. The world is going to end any minute now.
Otherdream
21-06-2006, 20:20
Then why do nice guys still exist? Shouldn't they be extinct by now thanks to the forces of evolution? :p


cause the bad guys have to be alpha male of somebody. Who's gonna fan them and do their homework else?:D
Cluichstan
21-06-2006, 20:21
Why, this marks the second time I agree with Deep Kimchi today. The world is going to end any minute now.

Add to that the fact that you agreed with me about something earlier today and -- DAMN! The end of the world is nigh! :eek:
Frutap
21-06-2006, 20:22
umm some women like nice guys... as long as a guy is intelegent and trustworthy and honest about himself.. then i may or may not like them depending of course on the rest of their personality
Laerod
21-06-2006, 20:23
Add to that the fact that you agreed with me about something earlier today and -- DAMN! The end of the world is nigh! :eek:Not until she marries me :D :p
Pride and Prejudice
21-06-2006, 20:26
Not until she marries me :D :p

Crap. I just made the end of the world nigh! Curse you, FD, for telling me to do my job... :D
Free shepmagans
21-06-2006, 20:28
Oy the curses of being an ego-centric asshole with lack of self esteem.:(
Cannot think of a name
21-06-2006, 20:30
Just a story that doesn't help, but I thought about this kind of thing when it happened.

It was a big party to mark the end of a theater festival. I was doing my level best to get as many people stoned as I could. There was this 'nice guy,' the one that complains that chicks want the bad guys, has all these overly romantisized issues. He's talking this chick up, and since some of the plays where about relationships the guy, who was casually trying to chat up a chick who was in the fattie que announced, "I just want a woman who laughs at my jokes." and then told a joke.

Now, I was well and trully blazed, but not quite blazed enough to blurt out my observation, which was this: How special is that chick going to feel if the guy is just going to go after the first person to giggle at his jokes? Really more of a "you'll do" kind of selection process that I imagine isn't sweeping her off his feet.

So he shot down is romantic chances a bit.

But what's worse, he also shackled his joke-because now if she laughed at it she might be pursued by this dude for the rest of the party as the love of his life.

We tried to keep the rotation going and change the subject after the joke fell flat but she ended up not getting that stoned and beat a hasty retreat.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 20:33
Crap. I just made the end of the world nigh! Curse you, FD, for telling me to do my job... :D
Indeed you did. Good thing I already e-divorced him again. Whew, close call, that was. :p
Pride and Prejudice
21-06-2006, 20:34
Indeed you did. Good thing I already e-divorced him again. Whew, close call, that was. :p

What? No, you can't do that! Not with a P&P decree! FD, tell - wait, no, you're offline, can't tell you to... erm....
Cluichstan
21-06-2006, 20:35
What? No, you can't do that! Not with a P&P decree! FD, tell - wait, no, you're offline, can't tell you to... erm....

Don't worry. He may be offline, but I'm sure he's still hiding in the bushes outside your bedroom window. :p
Deep Kimchi
21-06-2006, 20:36
There was this 'nice guy,' the one that complains that chicks want the bad guys, has all these overly romantisized issues. He's talking this up...<snippage>... after the joke fell flat but she ended up not getting that stoned and beat a hasty retreat.

What he was doing is commonly termed "whining".

Women do not find "whining" attractive, and often run when they hear it.
Pride and Prejudice
21-06-2006, 20:38
What he was doing is commonly termed "whining".

Women do not find "whining" attractive, and often run when they hear it.

Yup!!!!
Cannot think of a name
21-06-2006, 20:39
What he was doing is commonly termed "whining".

Women do not find "whining" attractive, and often run when they hear it.
True dat, though in this case it's more of an issue of me getting distracted while writing. He wasn't complaining that nice guys finish last in that conversation, that was a dead end that was suppose to be "talking this chick up" instead of implying that he was talking up how chicks like assholes. The only losery thing he mentioned in the conversation was his poor standard in selecting a woman.
Entropic Creation
21-06-2006, 21:01
Nice guys don’t finish last – you just aren’t looking long-term.
We start out a lot slower than the bad guys but it’s a tortoise and the hare phenomenon.

Immature girls love going for the bad boy – the rebel without a cause if you will – but they usually grow out of that.

Sometimes women lack the self-esteem and don’t feel they are worth a ‘good guy’,
sometimes they buy into the idea that all men are assholes and there isn’t anything better,
sometimes all they needed was for you to show a little initiative and go for it.

There have been times where women have been dropping ‘hints’ and sending ‘signals’ constantly but I just never picked up on it – or if I did, I never made a move. Many women like to be pursued – that’s what makes them feel special. If you dont do something about it you will just sit there like a rock. And a little tip to the girls here – most nice guys see assholes not taking no for an answer and the last thing they want to be is ‘that guy’. So if you play hard to get, he might thing you are not interested and be nice by leaving you alone – even though he really is interested.

Take some initiative, show some confidence (just don’t get arrogant), and let them know that you are looking to enjoy life and that you two would have some fun.

Perhaps you could learn from my perspective:

In my younger years (high school and college), I had a lot of female friends who cared a great deal for me, but could never get a date. The reason was because they saw me as someone to be a loving husband and a great father, the man they want to have kids with – so of course they wouldn’t date me as they were looking to have fun and couldn’t ‘use me like that’ (little tip ladies – men love being used like that). Since they were just looking to have fun, they wanted guys they could have fun with but not feel like they lost ‘the one’ when they broke up – never mind that all I was looking for was to have a little fun too. I loosened up a lot, and learned how to just relax and not take life so seriously. While I did have fun in college myself, it was not nearly enough.

Now at 27 I am falling victim to the same perception as before – but this time the girls ARE looking to settle down, get married, and have kids. So now I want to have fun and enjoy life (as I always have), but even those that claim they are not looking to settle down yet change their minds when they find out I am that ‘great husband and father type’. The most independent, free spirited, life is a party type of woman changes her tune when she finds out what a ‘nice guy’ really is like.

You asking why nice guys finish last is about equivalent to my asking why all women want to get married and have kids right away.

You're 19 right? This is why you think nice guys finish last – but they don’t. The race has only just begun.
WangWee
21-06-2006, 21:11
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

Somewhere there is a fat "nice girl" who thinks you're falling for a total dickish arse-hole.
The Blaatschapen
21-06-2006, 21:12
So the nice guys don't get the fun but the wife and kids. Yup, sounds great to win the race later on if you're a nice guy :p
GrandBob
21-06-2006, 21:23
bad guys, well i guess you could construe them to be "alpha males" which Ive heard holds an attraction for most women in the context of evolution etc.

Being an ass as nothing to do with being an alpha males.... It's really just about being an ass.
Amarenthe
21-06-2006, 21:33
<snip>

In my younger years (high school and college), I had a lot of female friends who cared a great deal for me, but could never get a date. The reason was because they saw me as someone to be a loving husband and a great father, the man they want to have kids with – so of course they wouldn’t date me as they were looking to have fun and couldn’t ‘use me like that’ (little tip ladies – men love being used like that). Since they were just looking to have fun, they wanted guys they could have fun with but not feel like they lost ‘the one’ when they broke up – never mind that all I was looking for was to have a little fun too.

<snip>

For some reason, that's the most amazingly astute thing I've read today. I'm not even sure why, since I'm a girl and don't actually think that way, but it still somehow resonates. Guys can think the same way too, though... they always go for the flashier, flirty girls who'll be more fun to party with than the serious ones.

Anyhow, like many others have said, it's a confidence thing. Girls like to be pursued - hell, I do. Makes us feel special and all. :p So a guy has to take initiative, and have the confidence, to risk a little... take a chance, make us an offer, and not in a mumbled "WellIwaswonderingwouldyouliketodosomething?" way, but a self-assured, "Hey, I was wondering, you want to do dinner sometime?" way.

And yeah, the bad guys do have that "Nobody understands him like I do, he's really a softie deep down" appeal. Maybe it's a maternal thing, but a lot of girls like to be the one who "saves" him... turns him into the good person he has the potential to be... :p
Erketrum
21-06-2006, 21:35
Hmm, but what do you do when the only girls you get interested in are an ocean away (literally), or lesbian?

And no, it's not a joke. I'm serious.





Also, I know the answer, I'm just curious to hear the responses.
Londim
21-06-2006, 21:38
Nice guys don't finish last they finish first but it takes a while. I consider myself a nice guy and all my lady friends agree BUT I have not got a date. Do I care? Not really. If you keep looking for romance and love you'll never find it. Just forget about it then unexpectedly it will hit you big time. Whoa wise words from a 17 year old! I should return to my adolescent cave....
Amarenthe
21-06-2006, 21:38
Hmm, but what do you do when the only girls you get interested in are an ocean away (literally), or lesbian?

Feel unfortunate? :p
Terrorist Cakes
21-06-2006, 21:41
I don't know if that's always true. I like good guys! Mind you, some have been known to call me desperate, since I spend my Friday nights reading Charlotte Bronte novels and dreaming of Alexandre Despatie.
Rameria
21-06-2006, 21:48
My friend's theory is that the rebellious, bad-boy dickhead types tend to be more confident than the nice guys, and this is attractive to girls. I think that's true to a certain extent; confidence is great, but arrogance is not. I cannot stand a cocky guy; for me it's a huge turn-off.

For most girls I know, though, all it takes is one bad experience with the bad-boy sort of guy for them to realize that the nice guys really are the way to go. That's how it was for me, and the guy in question wasn't even that much of an asshole. Just enough to piss me off and make me realize I wanted something else in the men I date. The last few guys I've dated and/or been attracted to have actually been quite nerdy. :)
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 21:53
So the nice guys don't get the fun but the wife and kids. Yup, sounds great to win the race later on if you're a nice guy :p
Nah.
I'll have to quote Deep Kimchi's post again:I've noticed that women want men who are strong, but not scary. Smart, but not annoyingly so. Adventurous, but not jackass stupid. You can be a nice guy, but not be strong "enough" or adventurous "enough".

Women want a man who is confident, but not overly so. A lot of so-called "nice guys" have little or no confidence.
The more I think about this, the more it rings true (again, I certainly don't claim to speak for any woman but myself).
Thinking back on my previous relationships, they were, like I said, almost all with "nice guys" - except that I never saw them as "nice guys", just as guys who were simply nice, funny, smart, interesting etc. in a way that made me like them. That's how people pick their partners. Not exactly rocket science.

Now, when I think about what would attract me the most, confidence would definitely be on the list, as would the other things Deep Kimchi mentioned. Plus, like I said, I've been known to have a week spot for the slightly "mysterious", "deep" guys.

However,

1) to have these qualities, you don't have to be or become a so-called "bad boy". None of them depend on if you drive a motorcycle or not, to stay with the tired cliché.

2) while confidence is a good thing for everyone to have (male or female), just because you don't have any kind of "bad boy allure" doesn't mean you won't get the girl. Just because I theoretically like a specific trait in a guy doesn't mean I'll only pursue such guys.
That would be like saying "I find blonde girls with big boobs the hottest! I'll *never* date a girl that's neither blonde nor doesn't have big boobs!".
You date people because you like them, no matter how close they may come to some hypothetical "ideal".
Wilgrove
21-06-2006, 21:54
I don't know why women like bad boys, and I've given up on trying to figure that out. I'm happy with who I am, and if a girl doesn't like me because I'm a nice guy, then it's her lost. However, I don't want to hear her bitching about how her "bf" is mean and wishes she could meet a guy like me, and then 2 weeks later she's with another bad guy. That gets old after awhile.
Cluichstan
21-06-2006, 21:55
WYTYG, you just agreed with DK again! :eek:
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 21:59
Nice guys don't finish last they finish first but it takes a while. I consider myself a nice guy and all my lady friends agree BUT I have not got a date. Do I care? Not really. If you keep looking for romance and love you'll never find it. Just forget about it then unexpectedly it will hit you big time. Whoa wise words from a 17 year old! I should return to my adolescent cave....
Wise words indeed. I say forget about the cave. *nods*
GrandBob
21-06-2006, 22:00
Girls like to be pursued

That's probably most of the problem.

Seems like "Sucessfull" men have found the best way to get a date is to pursue few womens at once to increase their chance, as they know for sure most flirting will end up with nothing. Having a few prospect at once reduce the little stress you get when flirting since you usually just have average interest in the woman and you dont botter to much losing her.

That's why nice men feels theire kindness is the reason for there failure. They fail at demonstrating love to multiple woman at once and they perceive sucessfull man as "con-artist" unable of true love.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
21-06-2006, 22:00
My friend's theory is that the rebellious, bad-boy dickhead types tend to be more confident than the nice guys, and this is attractive to girls. I think that's true to a certain extent; confidence is great, but arrogance is not. I cannot stand a cocky guy; for me it's a huge turn-off. Bears repeating.
Jello Biafra
21-06-2006, 22:01
I would say, to continue with a line that a few other posters have started, that they like the bad boys because they feel they are the one to truly know the bad boy, and due to this they can fix him and make him a good boy. Being able to fix them would make the women feel special. This same principle applies to men who go after the best looking woman - whichever guy she chooses will also get to feel special.

I suppose it could be the confidence thing, I hear that mentioned a lot, but it makes less sense to me than the first paragraph I typed.
Rameria
21-06-2006, 22:06
I would say, to continue with a line that a few other posters have started, that they like the bad boys because they feel they are the one to truly know the bad boy, and due to this they can fix him and make him a good boy. Being able to fix them would make the women feel special.
I've never been able to understand that line of thought. If a woman feels the need to "fix" a guy that she's with in order to make him a good boy, you would think she likes good boys more than bad boys. And if that's the case, why the hell would she date a bad boy in the first place?
Szanth
21-06-2006, 22:06
Women don't like assholes, they like take-charge, aggressive men who seem to know what they're doing. Those guys usually just tend to be assholes as well, and it takes a while before the women realize the guys really -don't- know what they're doing, and moves on to the next asshole.

If you wanna be noticed then make them notice you. Assholes do it easily because they don't care about other people's feelings and therefore stand out more.

It's an "Offensive forcepower lightside jedi" dillemma. In KOTOR, all the good offensive powers are most easily obtained by being and remaining darksided, because they're driven by anger and evil. Doesn't mean the lightsided jedi can't use forcepowers, it's just that the defensive ones such as shield and heal seem kind of wimpy compared to choking someone to death with your mind.

Basically all you have to do is find how to use force wave as a strong equivalent to a large crowd-killing technique like force storm, or learn to use it in conjunction with a well-trained lightsaber.

In reality what this means is that you have to make yourself noticed while making it clear that you're not an asshole. Making people laugh and being outspoken are ways of doing this.

Or you could go the defensive route and use things like force immunity, energy resistance, force armor and master speed to your advantage. Using these techniques can diffuse pretty much anything your enemy thinks it can do to you, and leaves it open to pretty much anything you think you can do to it.

Again, in reality this translates to just being intelligent and knowing how to turn an asshole against himself and make him look stupid, preferably in front of a large crowd of people where his status will most be damaged. Once it's known without a doubt that you're superior to the asshole, you basically just have to wait till the girls come to you, which shouldn't take long.


It's up to you, really - just use the one that accents your best abilities.
Jello Biafra
21-06-2006, 22:07
I've never been able to understand that line of thought. If a woman feels the need to "fix" a guy that she's with in order to make him a good boy, you would think she likes good boys more than bad boys. And if that's the case, why the hell would she date a bad boy in the first place?Because she wants to feel special; if you can change someone just with the power of your love, that's awfully strong love that they feel for you. If the guy is already good, whatever he can do isn't going to be as powerful as changing his lifestyle in a positive way.
Cluichstan
21-06-2006, 22:08
My friend's theory is that the rebellious, bad-boy dickhead types tend to be more confident than the nice guys, and this is attractive to girls. I think that's true to a certain extent; confidence is great, but arrogance is not. I cannot stand a cocky guy; for me it's a huge turn-off.


Arrogance, though, is merely misplaced confidence.
Sarkhaan
21-06-2006, 22:09
Uhm, no.

I see these nice guy threads all the time in various places. The problem is 'nice guys' always seem to be the guys that never take initiative. They never act act all aggressive, totally passive and seem to want to wait till we fall for you.

Guess what, maybe some girl does really like you, but she is afraid to say or do something. Yes this is 2006, yes the traditional roles and rules of dating are blurred, but most women don't want to be the one to make the first move.

Get off your butt and get out there. Good luck. ;)
that says it perfectly. I'm the "nice guy" too...too shy to make the moves that I know I need to do. My tip? Be a bit cocky...not a prick, but just enough to be assertive. When there is a girl you like, make the move. Give her a kiss. That is what the "nice guy" lacks above all
Nazam
21-06-2006, 22:09
I believe it's a marketing thing. I know this guy, just a regular sort. balding, kinda chubby, good with kids...always had a hot date. He says to me, it's because he goes up and talks to all the girls who most guys feel would never give them the time of day. He's nice to em, funny and leaves a number and says he'd like to hook up some time for some laughs...sure the first 10 may not call...but 11 thru 15 do and he's dating all week. He finally got married a little bit back, has a couple of kids now, but he always told me it was all about averages. Get your number out there enough and the bites will come.
Dreamy Creatures
21-06-2006, 22:16
Boy-o-boy, "nice guy" blahblah isn't the problem here indeed. It's neither just the confidence part. I guess the complaining guys are the ones that want a girlfriend too much, so that their being eagerly to (...uh not "get laid" ofcourse, bein nice n all) date shines through in every move they make, or they just don't make any move BUT would love to.

All blatter, I think the thread is stating a false problem. Many would agree, reading the replies me thinkie.
Rameria
21-06-2006, 22:20
Because she wants to feel special; if you can change someone just with the power of your love, that's awfully strong love that they feel for you. If the guy is already good, whatever he can do isn't going to be as powerful as changing his lifestyle in a positive way.
Okay, I guess I can understand that, but I still find it bizarre. The concept of being attracted to a guy that you could potentially change into your ideal, instead of being attracted to the ideal in the first place is... weird. Bah. I'm not expressing myself very well today.
Jello Biafra
21-06-2006, 22:22
Okay, I guess I can understand that, but I still find it bizarre. The concept of being attracted to a guy that you could potentially change into your ideal, instead of being attracted to the ideal in the first place is... weird. Bah. I'm not expressing myself very well today.Oh, I know what you mean. As a female, perhaps you can answer: why do women like confidence in men?
The Aeson
21-06-2006, 22:41
I think that someone should do a study. Get a bunch of people who's neighbors, acquantinces, family etc. describe them as nice, and a bunch who's acquantinces describe them as bastards and have them race. Then we'll see who finishes last.
Py Romania
21-06-2006, 22:41
It's an "Offensive forcepower lightside jedi" dillemma. In KOTOR, all the good offensive powers are most easily obtained by being and remaining darksided, because they're driven by anger and evil. Doesn't mean the lightsided jedi can't use forcepowers, it's just that the defensive ones such as shield and heal seem kind of wimpy compared to choking someone to death with your mind.

*Snorts drink out nose*

A Star Wars analogy - so hilariously geeky, it reminds me of myself.

Speaking of myself, let's go over the intimate details of my personal history. Or at least, the extremely short story on my boyfriend. Although he doesn't own a motorcycle, he is definitely the "motorcycle guy" - long hair, leather jacket, thinks steak knives are meant for swordfighting, etc. Not really "under" but in addition to all his mystery and adventure and interest, he's caring and romantic. He's a nice guy, but not a boring, underconfident guy.

So, girls absolutely like guys who really care about us, and tend to leave the ones who don't - just remember that selflessness leaves nothing to get us interested in.
Cabra West
21-06-2006, 23:21
Ok, in the past 6 weeks, I've had some dates with a "nice guy", who took it really hard when I told him that I don't want to date him any more, and a maybe not so nice guy, who after 2 intense weeks decided he needed more distance.
The first guy still keeps calling me...

Why did I stop dating him? Because we had very little indeed in common. Becasue he's a nice, friendly, church-going, family-type person and he started to bore me to death.
Why did I prefer the not-so-nice guy? Because I could talk with him for hours, because he made me feel good, because I had fun with him.

Can't someone invent a nice guy who's fun to be with?
The Blaatschapen
21-06-2006, 23:23
Can't someone invent a nice guy who's fun to be with?

Here I am :cool: :p
Cannot think of a name
21-06-2006, 23:28
My friend's theory is that the rebellious, bad-boy dickhead types tend to be more confident than the nice guys, and this is attractive to girls. I think that's true to a certain extent; confidence is great, but arrogance is not. I cannot stand a cocky guy; for me it's a huge turn-off.


Suuuure chicks don't like cocky...lesbian chicks...


Because, you see...with the word, cause it's....hahaha....ha....


ha...

yeah...


So.


That's why I'm alone...
Cannot think of a name
21-06-2006, 23:30
Can't someone invent a nice guy who's fun to be with?
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/08/09/thumb/e004dh01.jpg
Erketrum
21-06-2006, 23:31
Oh, I know what you mean. As a female, perhaps you can answer: why do women like confidence in men?
Confidence is attractive, on both an instinctive and intellectual level.
It pushees the right buttons of both 'good mate' and 'interesting partner'.
And it goes both ways.
Confident women comes across as attractive too.
Sarkhaan
21-06-2006, 23:32
Suuuure chicks don't like cocky...lesbian chicks...


Because, you see...with the word, cause it's....hahaha....ha....


ha...

yeah...


So.


That's why I'm alone...
and the fact that I laughed at that explains why I, too, am alone.

But hey, we'll always have Paris...
Infinite Revolution
21-06-2006, 23:32
Uhm, no.

I see these nice guy threads all the time in various places. The problem is 'nice guys' always seem to be the guys that never take initiative. They never act act all aggressive, totally passive and seem to want to wait till we fall for you.

Guess what, maybe some girl does really like you, but she is afraid to say or do something. Yes this is 2006, yes the traditional roles and rules of dating are blurred, but most women don't want to be the one to make the first move.

Get off your butt and get out there. Good luck. ;)
i think you probably hit the nail on the head right there. at least, it's probably true for me.
Cannot think of a name
21-06-2006, 23:35
and the fact that I laughed at that explains why I, too, am alone.

But hey, we'll always have Paris...
We'll be alone together...hey, that's a song...
Sarkhaan
21-06-2006, 23:39
We'll be alone together...hey, that's a song...
Don't let me be lonely tonight...hey, so's that...


I call big spoon.
Infinite Revolution
22-06-2006, 00:03
actually, just had a thought. there's been a lot of posts on this thread about how girls like to be pursued and to feel special for being pursued, and that 'nice guys' lose out cuz they're less ready to do any pursuing. might it also be that 'nice guys' also want to be pursued and to feel special. for me, well i don't know i want to be pursued necessarily, (it's only happened once and it was annoying but then i really wasn't interested) but i certainly would love for some girl or guy to make me feel special, if only by taking things to the next level of flirting themselves when they are responding positively rather than me having to do all the leg work and then running out of steam cuz i don't know what to do next.
Cannot think of a name
22-06-2006, 00:27
actually, just had a thought. there's been a lot of posts on this thread about how girls like to be pursued and to feel special for being pursued, and that 'nice guys' lose out cuz they're less ready to do any pursuing. might it also be that 'nice guys' also want to be pursued and to feel special. for me, well i don't know i want to be pursued necessarily, (it's only happened once and it was annoying but then i really wasn't interested) but i certainly would love for some girl or guy to make me feel special, if only by taking things to the next level of flirting themselves when they are responding positively rather than me having to do all the leg work and then running out of steam cuz i don't know what to do next.
What I was trying to get at when I said that the relationship dance is a way of saying, "Hey you. Chase me." but bailed on is that it is a two player game-both parties are essentially saying that. Like watching cats play. One will take off and the other chases it. They tussle, and then the chase cat takes off and the other chases it. If only one side is doing the chasing and the other the running it becomes something else.

Stalking.
Sdaeriji
22-06-2006, 00:34
You're 19 right? This is why you think nice guys finish last – but they don’t. The race has only just begun.

What a great quote. This deserves to be repeated.
Infinite Revolution
22-06-2006, 00:35
What I was trying to get at when I said that the relationship dance is a way of saying, "Hey you. Chase me." but bailed on is that it is a two player game-both parties are essentially saying that. Like watching cats play. One will take off and the other chases it. They tussle, and then the chase cat takes off and the other chases it. If only one side is doing the chasing and the other the running it becomes something else.

Stalking.
haha, well thank goodness i've got a very short attention span otherwise i'd probably be a serious stalker by now! :p
NERVUN
22-06-2006, 01:17
Elvis aside, women don't like teddy bears. Or rather (as I have come to know) they like their teddy bears to be cuddly and soft for them, and grizzly bears for everything else.

I think part of the nice guy problem is also we nice guys are just dripping with the "I'll change whatever you want," and "I will worship you as a living goddess and place you upon the most perfect altar." The problem with part a. is that it removes any and all confidence in yourself. If you're willing to change every part of you to conform to her desiers, which is the real 'you' and do you have any confidence in yourself? Part b. as was explained to me, is that while the ladies do like to be worshiped, it gets lonely on that altar of perfection and they are painfully aware that they are not perfect. So do you love the real them, or just a perfect image of them?

I also think there's a small "I don't want to share" amoung ladies as well. Nice guys tend to be nice to everyone, not just one woman.
JuNii
22-06-2006, 01:28
Why do good guys finish last?
because the Best is saved for Last. :p
Rameria
22-06-2006, 02:17
Oh, I know what you mean. As a female, perhaps you can answer: why do women like confidence in men?
I won't presume to answer for all females, but speaking just for myself, I've found that men with more confidence are more comfortable with themselves. A confident guy likes the person that he is. In my book, this is absolutely crucial. I've dated confident men, and men with little or no confidence, and always have more fun with the first kind. Going out with a guy with little self-confidence can be a lot like pulling teeth. I don't want to have to coax a conversation out of my partner or feel like I'm terrifying them if I ask them a question. I don't want to be the one to make all of the decisions, all of the time, because that gets really annoying. I like being with guys who are sure enough of themselves to do silly things in public. I don't want to be put on a pedestal, thank you very much, because no, I'm not perfect.

Please note that lacking confidence and being shy are not the same thing. Some of the most confident guys I know are shy around people they don't know very well, but open up given time. The unconfident (is that a word?) guys don't do that.
Amarenthe
22-06-2006, 02:29
actually, just had a thought. there's been a lot of posts on this thread about how girls like to be pursued and to feel special for being pursued, and that 'nice guys' lose out cuz they're less ready to do any pursuing. might it also be that 'nice guys' also want to be pursued and to feel special. for me, well i don't know i want to be pursued necessarily, (it's only happened once and it was annoying but then i really wasn't interested) but i certainly would love for some girl or guy to make me feel special, if only by taking things to the next level of flirting themselves when they are responding positively rather than me having to do all the leg work and then running out of steam cuz i don't know what to do next.

Hmm, true enough... and I have no problem doing stuff like that. Well, making affectionate gestures and such. I wrote my boyfriend a love letter awhile back... and I left a note tucked under his windshield wiper at work today, cos he looked tired. That kind of stuff I classify as pursuing, cos it makes the person feel special, so they know you've gone out of your way to do something little for them... thinking of them, whatever. It's just, I think, that momentum starts going in that direction, and then a girl might feel like she's doing all the chasing. If we do sweet stuff, we want sweet stuff back...

And confidence, for me, is attractive, because... he'll tend to be more open, funnier, because he's not worried about what people think of him. He's more himself; he's willing to stand up for himself and what he thinks. It's a sort of strength that's attractive, it offers a degree of safety... like he'd stand up for me if I ever needed him to, as well. And if he's not afraid to be himself, then I won't be, either... it's a charisma thing.
Regatear
22-06-2006, 02:40
Listen to Billy Joel's "Only the Good Die Young," and you will have your answer.
Svalbardania
22-06-2006, 03:11
Confident women comes across as attractive too.

Funny, maybe its just me but I've always much preferred the shy, quiet ones (then again, this doesn't mean they have no confidence, it just isn't immediately apparent. Either way, I've never been able to find out)
Maineiacs
22-06-2006, 07:24
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:


Because too many people (both male and female) don't understand the difference between confidence and arrogance.
Demented Hamsters
22-06-2006, 07:45
Well, the theory I developed one night when I had had a little bit of vodka (the rest of the bottle mysteriously evaporated during the night and someone snuck into my room while I was asleep and hit my head and my stomach with a hammer several times) is that women don't need to do anything to placate a 'nice guy' (NG).
Now what I'm going to spout off on is what's happening at a subconscious level.

An NG will usually come to the aid of a female friend in distress, needing help, comfort etc. Because they're NICE and that's what nice guys do.

So basically NGs become akin to siblings in the female's eyes. Cause, unless your brother's a total asshole, if you need help he'll give it without expecting any reward or payment. Thus there's no need or effort made to keep them around.

Bad Guys (BG) on the other hand can't be relied on to unselfishly proffer support or to hang around. In order to keep them around, there needs to some sort of incentive for them to stay.

Easiest incentive to make a guy hang around is the promise of sex.

No need to make that promise that to the NG, cause he'll hang around regardless. Also there's no feelings there, cause NG = sibling. So offering/promising sex is inherrently and biologicaly wrong (unless you're royal family or from the deep south). Problem is, you're average NG doesn't realise this and is actually hanging around cause he thinks he might get lucky sometime in the future.
Reformed Sparta
22-06-2006, 07:47
Nice guys finish last because we are sensitive to a womans needs and wants. I mean, I am more than happy to make her have several orgasms before I finish. This is of course because I am a certified Nice Guy.
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 07:49
Jesus, what a bunch of losers are posting here, with exceptions...

What is this always about the fact that "women love to date bad guys and not good guys" instead of the almost equal "men love to date only women with tiny brains and huge tits". For many women, it is exactly the same!, how many of you have been thinking why the woman you are "in love" with likes bad guys, instead of noting that right next to you works a woman that actually likes good guys?

Actually, most of the time you guys are dreaming with your so called "another half" who is just a bimbo and not what most people call a good girl. Then you see how she prefers almost the same empty and bad looking guys that treat them like shit, mostly because she's an idiot and instead of thinking "My god, she's such an idiot. Let's find out a nice, thinking woman", you think "Oh, no, Why wouldn't a skank like her like a good guy like me?".

And, before you ask, no, this is not resentment, I have exactly what I want at this moment of my life.

Something else, I agree entirely with what Rameria said. Self-confidence is the best attribute a man can display. Yet self-confidence and over confidence aren't the same thing...

And finally. Sex is about physical attraction, with variants, it is a physical activity. If you are the best guy in the world, as good as an angel and always finish last...But then you have the face of the moon's surface, are obese, and eat your buggers, it is not going to work, sorry. You can be my best friend, my movie companion and my favourite chatter, but not my bed mate. Get over it, workout, and try to bring the best out of yourself.
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 07:51
Well, the theory I developed one night when I had had a little bit of vodka (the rest of the bottle mysteriously evaporated during the night and someone snuck into my room while I was asleep and hit my head and my stomach with a hammer several times) is that women don't need to do anything to placate a 'nice guy' (NG).
Now what I'm going to spout off on is what's happening at a subconscious level.

An NG will usually come to the aid of a female friend in distress, needing help, comfort etc. Because they're NICE and that's what nice guys do.

So basically NGs become akin to siblings in the female's eyes. Cause, unless your brother's a total asshole, if you need help he'll give it without expecting any reward or payment. Thus there's no need or effort made to keep them around.

Bad Guys (BG) on the other hand can't be relied on to unselfishly proffer support or to hang around. In order to keep them around, there needs to some sort of incentive for them to stay.

Easiest incentive to make a guy hang around is the promise of sex.

No need to make that promise that to the NG, cause he'll hang around regardless. Also there's no feelings there, cause NG = sibling. So offering/promising sex is inherrently and biologicaly wrong (unless you're royal family or from the deep south). Problem is, you're average NG doesn't realise this and is actually hanging around cause he thinks he might get lucky sometime in the future.

So we are dependant of men and we take advantage of the weak ones and try to bribe the strong ones with pleasure?

Pleeease, take your macho stuff to some place else
Not bad
22-06-2006, 07:55
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

I give you the ladder theory of adult male/female interaction.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

You can thank me after you start getting lucky.
Reformed Sparta
22-06-2006, 07:55
and eat your buggers

Uh... ew?
JiangGuo
22-06-2006, 07:58
The answer is simple - cheater, liars and frauds accomplish more, and quicker too. Thats why 'Good' guys finish last.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 08:00
You can thank me after you start getting lucky.
Here is a translation guide for dealing with women.

Says: I want a man who is motivated and has goals.
Means: I want a rich man

Says: I want a man who knows how to treat a woman.
Means: I want a rich man

Says: He's from a really good family.
Means: He's from a really rich family.

I'm sure you get the point. Let's move on.
:D

EDIT: Holy Shit! How true is this website?!
http://www.intellectualwhores.com/images/womansladder.jpg
The first thing to notice here is that a woman has not one ,but two ladders. This is becasue in addition the normal ladder, a woman also has a friends ladder. The friends ladder is where a woman puts guys that she considers "just friends". More to the point where she puts guys who don't get to have sex with her.

The problem arises because a woman never lets a guy know which ladder he is on. Obviously there is a huge difference, or gap between these two ladders. It is in this gap that kisses of death are delivered and intellectual whores are made. All a man can do is "go for it" and make a move on a girl; ask her out, try to kiss her, write her a love note or whatever. If he's on the good ladder fine. If he is on the friends ladder this is a case of ladder jumping. The man is trying to jump the gap from the friends ladder to the real ladder. The girl has two choices at this point: she can let him on the ladder and all is well, or, more likely, she can kick him in the head, and off the ladder. If you look you'll see that below the ladder is the Abyss(what was it Nietzsche said about a man being on a rope stretched over an Abyss?....well it's worse than he thought; there is no rope.) So the man falls into the Abyss. The Abyss isn't really as bad as it sounds. Mostly it's a period of self-loathing, embarrassment, and of course utter awkwardness with the girl in question if they are talking at all.
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 08:04
Here I am :cool: :p

*lol
How would you know that?
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 08:41
Okay, I have just found the Holy Grail of all truths. This ladder website is the most accurate description of my life I have ever seen. And I am not kidding either. I'm amazed. This might change my life.
Thanks a thousand times for Not Bad for posting it.

And this post from their forum pretty much sums it all up: http://www.intellectualwhores.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30404
GreaterPacificNations
22-06-2006, 08:46
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
Because you suck. I wouldn't go out with you. Would you go out with you? Girls quite often opt for the arsehole because they are more often the ones with nuts. You can be a good guy and win, you just have to learn how to be an arsehole, and then act like that all of the time. Works for me.
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 08:47
Okay, I have just found the Holy Grail of all truths. This ladder website is the most accurate description of my life I have ever seen. And I am not kidding either. I'm amazed. This might change my life.
Thanks a thousand times for Not Bad for posting it.

And this post from their forum pretty much sums it all up: http://www.intellectualwhores.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30404

Boys, if you carry your life that way, that means you're the most sad and pathetic beings I've ever know...

Not really, but close enough...
GreaterPacificNations
22-06-2006, 08:54
Realistically, there is no such thing as a 'ggod guy' and a 'bad guy'. There are just guys who will hold themselves back on the basis on some ideaology in their head, and guys who win.
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 08:59
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/08/09/thumb/e004dh01.jpg

Interesting... wierd.... mental... maybe a bit over the top, don't you think?
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 09:03
Not really, but close enough...
:p

*thinks about saying more*

It's true though, the two-ladder thing. Not that there is anything wrong with it, the problem is just that you never know which ladder you are on until it is too late. As satirical as the website is, if you look at the forum, many of these people have real stories, stories which I have lived through as well.
Sometimes girls just are not interested in you like that (and sex or no sex, if you like a girl, you want the whole girlfriend/boyfriend thing to happen when the truth is that it can't), but they seem to assume that you somehow know. And then you are just set up for horrible disappointment.
It's a joke, but the theory is really the closest to a realistic model of how these things work that I have seen so far (except maybe for the reasons people get put on various ladders, that probably can't be generalised like they do).

And the post I chose then...I mean it is first and foremost a call for IWs (ie people who can only end up as "just friends") to change their ways.
I have yet to meet a girl who honestly liked me for being myself. They like me as a friend, because I have friend-like aspects. I can make them laugh, and I can talk about interesting things, and I can help them with their homework (that's a big 'un) and all that. But there is never any sort of proper chemistry happening, and if there is I'm sad to admit it's usually very one-sided.

I can't tell you exactly why that is, but it doesn't matter. Sometimes a little joke like this theory can make you think enough to cause action - and in my case it could cause me to go back to the gym, lose those five kilos...and, yes, learn how to make a girl look at me as more than just a friend. And if that includes not acting my usual self, then that is sad but unavoidable.

And yes, I am being a little dramatic, but I have been disappointed only about a week ago, so the memory is still fresh.
Not bad
22-06-2006, 09:08
Okay, I have just found the Holy Grail of all truths. This ladder website is the most accurate description of my life I have ever seen. And I am not kidding either. I'm amazed. This might change my life.
Thanks a thousand times for Not Bad for posting it.

And this post from their forum pretty much sums it all up: http://www.intellectualwhores.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30404

It may not be the be all and end all, it is incomplete and it doesnt pretend to tell you how to actually have a long term relationship but the ladder theory stands up to most real world tests and explains much that is otherwise purely baffling to watch or worse to experience.
Not bad
22-06-2006, 09:16
Boys, if you carry your life that way, that means you're the most sad and pathetic beings I've ever know...

Not really, but close enough...

Ive no real desire to live my life chasing sex.Or worrying excessively about what strangers think of me. But I have even less desire to go through life needlessly confused or heartbroken.
Jello Biafra
22-06-2006, 12:01
Confidence is attractive, on both an instinctive and intellectual level.
It pushees the right buttons of both 'good mate' and 'interesting partner'.
And it goes both ways.
Confident women comes across as attractive too.If what you mean by 'interesting partner is how Rameria described it (see below), then I can see what you mean, but I'm not sure how a confident man is more likely to be a good mate. While a confident man can be a good mate, wouldn't he also be more likely to cheat on you or dump you because he's confident he could find someone better?

I won't presume to answer for all females, but speaking just for myself, I've found that men with more confidence are more comfortable with themselves. A confident guy likes the person that he is. In my book, this is absolutely crucial. I've dated confident men, and men with little or no confidence, and always have more fun with the first kind. Going out with a guy with little self-confidence can be a lot like pulling teeth. I don't want to have to coax a conversation out of my partner or feel like I'm terrifying them if I ask them a question. I don't want to be the one to make all of the decisions, all of the time, because that gets really annoying. I like being with guys who are sure enough of themselves to do silly things in public. I don't want to be put on a pedestal, thank you very much, because no, I'm not perfect.

Please note that lacking confidence and being shy are not the same thing. Some of the most confident guys I know are shy around people they don't know very well, but open up given time. The unconfident (is that a word?) guys don't do that.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 12:22
Here is a translation guide for dealing with women.

Says: I want a man who is motivated and has goals.
Means: I want a rich man

Says: I want a man who knows how to treat a woman.
Means: I want a rich man

Says: He's from a really good family.
Means: He's from a really rich family.

I'm sure you get the point. Let's move on.
:D

EDIT: Holy Shit! How true is this website?!

Oh my God. I had yet to actually get a glance of the infamous ladder theory. First time I heard about it was here on the forum, and Kanabia's reaction to it (hint: "disgust" describes it pretty well) kind of made me sure it wasn't worth wasting even a minute on looking it up. And boy, was he ever right.

Your quote above is supreme, absolute, complete and utter bullshit.

And coupled with this little nugget of wisdom straight from their website:
Things Women Say They Care About But Do Not: 10%
(this includes intelligence, sense of humor, honesty, sensitivity etc. ) (bolded for disgust) it's about the most insulting thing I've ever read.

Seriously - do you guys really believe that?

And this: The problem arises because a woman never lets a guy know which ladder he is on. Seriously, WTF? So this isn't because many guys just can't seem to get a hint, no, this is because we love nothing better than willfully and evilly string you poor saps along?
Sure, whatever. :rolleyes:

Seriously guys, do yourself a favour and don't buy into this shit.
Glitziness
22-06-2006, 12:47
For fucks sake.

Maybe the reason you aren't getting the girls is because you think it's okay to lump every female in the world into one big group and make ridiculous generalisations about how girls act, what they want etc.

It's bullshit and if you can't treat a person as an individual you don't deserve to be in a relationship with that person.

The ladder theory is also bullshit and the same applies. If you base your actions in relationships on that, you don't deserve to have relationships.

This of course applies to both men and women, who either speak supposed truths about what their gender wants or what the opposite gender wants.

For example, confidence. So many woman respond to this topic with "nah, it's confidence us women want." Personally, confidence has absolutly no bearing on finding someone attractive. I can't see why it would. And I find it offensive to have anyone speak wrongly on my behalf and somehow act as if they know what I want better than I do just because they share the same reproductive organs as me. Or a man to say the same thing just because he's encountered someone with the same reproductive organs as me, and now thinks he is qualified to talk about what I want.

Of course, some people say, "oh but I'm just generalising". Yes. You are. And relationships don't work on generalisations. Don't work healthily anyway. Relationships involve individuals.

As I said earlier, if you can't cope with treating a person as an individual, you don't deserve a relationship with them.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 12:50
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
*Sigh* When, oh when, will the idiotic Myth Of The Nice Guy(tm) die?

Let me walk you through a few basic points.

1) Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that you really are a "good guy," that does not entitle you to a girlfriend. You labor under the common male misconception that you deserve sex by default. This is not true. You may be a very good guy, and simply have not yet met a woman who is interested in being with you.

2) I'm sure YOU consider yourself a "good guy," but obviously women do not. You can choose to blame women for this, and insist that it's because women have lousy taste in men, or you can accept that there is something YOU are putting out there that women haven't responded to (at least not so far).

3) Whining about how all women prefer jerks is transparent and pathetic. More often than not, guys who whine about this are unattractive and immature fellows who somehow have gotten the idea that because they hold a door open they are entitled to an avalanche of naked cheerleaders. If you are not such a guy, then I strongly suggest you not talk like one.

4) "Women" are not a homogenous group, and "women" do not all want the same thing from a relationship. The sooner you stop thinking of "women" this way, the sooner you will have a chance of possibly being a worthwhile partner for an actual woman.
Cannot think of a name
22-06-2006, 13:06
the idea that because they hold a door open they are entitled to an avalanche of naked cheerleaders.
Oh man that would be so kick ass...



...I mean...



Yeah, what Bottle said.












oh man, I gotta find the naked cheerleader avalanche...
Bottle
22-06-2006, 13:12
For fucks sake.

Maybe the reason you aren't getting the girls is because you think it's okay to lump every female in the world into one big group and make ridiculous generalisations about how girls act, what they want etc.

It's bullshit and if you can't treat a person as an individual you don't deserve to be in a relationship with that person.

The ladder theory is also bullshit and the same applies. If you base your actions in relationships on that, you don't deserve to have relationships.

This of course applies to both men and women, who either speak supposed truths about what their gender wants or what the opposite gender wants.

For example, confidence. So many woman respond to this topic with "nah, it's confidence us women want." Personally, confidence has absolutly no bearing on finding someone attractive. I can't see why it would. And I find it offensive to have anyone speak wrongly on my behalf and somehow act as if they know what I want better than I do just because they share the same reproductive organs as me. Or a man to say the same thing just because he's encountered someone with the same reproductive organs as me, and now thinks he is qualified to talk about what I want.

Of course, some people say, "oh but I'm just generalising". Yes. You are. And relationships don't work on generalisations. Don't work healthily anyway. Relationships involve individuals.

As I said earlier, if you can't cope with treating a person as an individual, you don't deserve a relationship with them.
Hell fucking yes. Any guy who bitches about not being able to get "women" is a loser from the moment he opens his mouth. If it's just "women" you want, then you're not ready to be in a relationship with a woman. A relationship is between two individuals, not between you and some generic female.

And if any girl/woman is stupid enough to think she can tell you "what women want," that girl is not worth dating in the first place. She's probably just trying to get attention for herself by being "one of the guys," and she's piling on the bullshit in order to advance herself.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 13:29
...she's piling on the bullshit in order to advance herself.
It's what people do. All people.

And if you look at the forum of that "Intellectual Whores" website, you see that it is indeed full of "losers". Those are all the nice guys, who thought they had a chance because they couldn't read the situation.

Essentially the whole idea behind the "theory" and all the rest of it is a message to all those nice guys that says: "Look, stop kidding yourself. Either she likes you, or she doesn't. It's biology. If she isn't attracted to you, no amount of being nice is going to change that. So don't try and be friendly unless you want to be friends."

To me, the website and the theory is just another way of saying what you're saying - that being nice doesn't help you if you don't do the rest, and your lucky stars are shining.

Of course its generalising, and of course it's ridiculous to think that money is all that "women" want. But to me that was just satirical addendum to the actual message, and that is not one against women, but against myself.
Evil Satanic OzMonkeys
22-06-2006, 13:33
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

They choose guys who can't even treat themselves right because they want to look pretty, and guys who look like s*** with worn out tatoos make them look like JLo.
Cannot think of a name
22-06-2006, 13:49
It's my fault, really. Me and my kind, we did this...and I'm sorry.

We created this fairy tale that the nice guy, the noble loser will eventually win out. That if you're a 'nice' but slightly troubled guy eventually you'll be rewarded with a hot french chick who will help you fix up your Camaro and show up those bastards, that your pining anguished nicety would win the woman over from that jerk and Billy Idol himself will stand in your defence.

We're sorry. We created this mythical world where the women, the hot women, are the samee and just need to be rescued by a well meaning man, a wimpy knight in shining armor. We did it and you bought it and we're sorry.

We thought you knew that we where making it up, that it was fiction. It's what we do, we make stuff up. We don't portray what is, you live what is, we make fiction. Look at what we call 'reality.' We don't do that. When was the last time you had to go through an obsticle course to earn the right to make a phone call or eat a grub to stay on he island? We don't do real. We do fantasy.

We're sorry. We thought you knew.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 13:50
Essentially the whole idea behind the "theory" and all the rest of it is a message to all those nice guys that says: "Look, stop kidding yourself. Either she likes you, or she doesn't. It's biology. If she isn't attracted to you, no amount of being nice is going to change that. So don't try and be friendly unless you want to be friends."

To me, the website and the theory is just another way of saying what you're saying - that being nice doesn't help you if you don't do the rest, and your lucky stars are shining.
While I wouldn't say I jumped the gun on condemning that site/theory - because it *does* in fact say what I ranted about above - now this part seems reasonable.
"Don't try and be friendly unless you want to be friends" (or, as I would have put it, "unless you're okay with being just friends") is certainly a good rule, I think.

Which is not to say that relationships cannot come out of friendships (I seem to remember that the ladder theory frowns on this concept), most of mine did, but even then it's better not to presume there'll be anything more than friendship, for your own mental health. Just because something could eventually happen doesn't make it sensible - not to mention bearable - to set your hopes on that slim chance.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 13:51
We're sorry. We thought you knew.
God damn you!

Who's "you" by the way? Muslims? Black People? Liberals? ;)
Evil Satanic OzMonkeys
22-06-2006, 13:51
It's my fault, really. Me and my kind, we did this...and I'm sorry.

We created this fairy tale that the nice guy, the noble loser will eventually win out. That if you're a 'nice' but slightly troubled guy eventually you'll be rewarded with a hot french chick who will help you fix up your Camaro and show up those bastards, that your pining anguished nicety would win the woman over from that jerk and Billy Idol himself will stand in your defence.

We're sorry. We created this mythical world where the women, the hot women, are the samee and just need to be rescued by a well meaning man, a wimpy knight in shining armor. We did it and you bought it and we're sorry.

We thought you knew that we where making it up, that it was fiction. It's what we do, we make stuff up. We don't portray what is, you live what is, we make fiction. Look at what we call 'reality.' We don't do that. When was the last time you had to go through an obsticle course to earn the right to make a phone call or eat a grub to stay on he island? We don't do real. We do fantasy.

We're sorry. We thought you knew.

Are you an author, or do you work as a jack*** for a living?
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 13:53
Are you an author, or do you work as a jack*** for a living?
Oooh, let me, let me!

Same thing. :p
Cluichstan
22-06-2006, 13:55
Oooh, let me, let me!

Same thing. :p

-.-
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 13:57
-.-
Aw, he knows I'm just kidding. I'm still trying to get into his, er, bus, you know?
Peepelonia
22-06-2006, 14:00
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:


Thats not really true you know, it just seems that way sometimes. Girls will go out with who ever thay want to, as will us blokes. Umm now I have to ask is it true that girls say things along the lines of 'Why do blokes only go out with girls with big tits, or those that put out more easily?'
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 14:01
Which is not to say that relationships cannot come out of friendships (I seem to remember that the ladder theory frowns on this concept), most of mine did, but even then it's better not to presume there'll be anything more than friendship, for your own mental health. Just because something could eventually happen doesn't make it sensible - not to mention bearable - to set your hopes on that slim chance.
Exactly. And the value of this website is that once people hear about it, they can set their thoughts in order. They'll have words to describe what is happening. If you sit there and you don't understand, you get lost - if you can stand back for a minute and say "Wait just a minute here, she just wants me for conversation and stuff. It's impossible for her not to know what I'm after, but she values her happiness more than mine. I'm the 'intellectual whore' (god how I love that word...:p ) and she's my 'intellectual pimp'. I'm wasting my time" then thing can be resolved quickly, albeit cynically.

On that forum people sometimes post their stories, and I think it's fascinating stuff. Particularly IM-conversations in which the boy in question essentially ends the friendship because that's the only way to get over it all. And the girls seem to just not want to face it, and often end up blaming the guy.

I can understand that many girls are not going to like this website, and most guys will have a laugh and leave it at that (they are the ones who aren't the nice guys and don't need the advice), but there is value in that theory and in what it does.

Plus, I refuse to believe that there aren't girls out there who know exactly what is going on and just make it go on because it makes them feel better about themselves. I mean, I asked that girl out for a movie after asking her whether she was single...how much more obvious can I get? And now she's pretending I never sent that message, and I don't see why I have to just take that.
Not bad
22-06-2006, 14:06
If what you mean by 'interesting partner is how Rameria described it (see below), then I can see what you mean, but I'm not sure how a confident man is more likely to be a good mate. While a confident man can be a good mate, wouldn't he also be more likely to cheat on you or dump you because he's confident he could find someone better?

A confident partner would have a better chance of finding someone else to cheat with in a hurry if that was his intent. But I cant see how confidence would make a person more likely to desire to be unfaithful. A confident person is also more likely to be with the person they desire to be with in the first place. Possibly also less likely to be looking for notches on his bedpost just to give his ego a boost as well.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 14:12
It's what people do. All people.

Hardly. Many of us simply can't be bothered. :)


And if you look at the forum of that "Intellectual Whores" website, you see that it is indeed full of "losers". Those are all the nice guys, who thought they had a chance because they couldn't read the situation.

I think it's cute how there are all these guys going around bad-mouthing women who won't fuck them, and at the same time these guys are insisting on how "nice" they are. Yeah, real nice. Especially when the girls are trying their hardest to let the guys down easy, and the guys piss and moan about how the girls are sending mixed signals.


Essentially the whole idea behind the "theory" and all the rest of it is a message to all those nice guys that says: "Look, stop kidding yourself. Either she likes you, or she doesn't. It's biology. If she isn't attracted to you, no amount of being nice is going to change that. So don't try and be friendly unless you want to be friends."

And, of course, none of these guys want to be FRIENDS with women. The only relationships they are interested in, when it comes to women, are the ones where they get laid. If a girl won't put out, then they've got to end their relationship with her.


To me, the website and the theory is just another way of saying what you're saying - that being nice doesn't help you if you don't do the rest, and your lucky stars are shining.

What I'm saying is that most guys who brag about how "nice" they are turn out to be total dicks. They aren't nice in the least. There's nothing nice about thinking that you are entitled to get laid if you're polite to women. There's nothing nice about generalizing and lumping all of womankind together, and then blaming all of womankind for the fact that you are single. There's nothing nice about generalizing your problems with a particular girl/woman to somehow stand for the actions of all women everywhere.
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 14:21
Girls, stop explaining. They are not going to understand.

Mainly because they do not want to, because if they do they would realize a lot of things that they do not want to realize.

Remember that when you are not able to get whatever you want to get, it is easier to blame something or someone else than yourself.

Instead of blaming the women, blame yourself for not being more interesting than to be considered a friend. Nothing wrong with that, again, but stop accusing us of manipulating and having an agenda to prejudice men just because you want to get laid and do not find anyone to do it for or with you.

Not all men are alike, why then should women then?

I would tell you about my own personal experiences, but that would be a waste of time and fingers.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 14:32
I think it's cute how there are all these guys going around bad-mouthing women who won't fuck them, and at the same time these guys are insisting on how "nice" they are. Yeah, real nice.
To be fair, "nice" doesn't come up often there. :D
What comes up is disappointment and frustration.
When I mean "nice" I mean the kind of thing that happens when you end up being just friends, and you think by being nice to her in order to get more. Of course they're not nice for no reason, that would be ridiculous. No one is.
The niceness is just a manifestation of an entirely wrong approach.

Especially when the girls are trying their hardest to let the guys down easy, and the guys piss and moan about how the girls are sending mixed signals.
Personally I'd prefer a simple talk over having to find out the hard way after weeks of hoping and all that. But you probably shouldn't talk to me about that particular thing at the moment, because I'll find it hard to be neutral. I am just too sick and tired of being talked to about boyfriend troubles by girls who know I like them, and if I have to be harsh about it - fine. It's not like the thing isn't harsh on me as well.

By the way, what do you think would happen if I just went and asked next time I meet someone I like. Just asked her: "Do you like me in that way, or do you just want to be friends?" And when she chooses the latter, I won't bother.

And, of course, none of these guys want to be FRIENDS with women.
Yes, that's the point. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that - if you love someone, you want to be with them proper. As I said before, sex (at least for your traditional nice guy, ie sorta shy, possibly nerdy and so on) is a side-issue. Intimacy and a real relationship is what they're after, sex is a fringe benefit of that, although I'd be lying if it didn't play its due part.
And there is no point in trying to pursue that if the girl wants to be friends, you're just setting yourself up to get hurt again and again.

What I'm saying is that most guys who brag about how "nice" they are turn out to be total dicks. They aren't nice in the least.
I think we need to divorce the "nice" as in "nice guy" from the normal use of the word "nice".
What Zilam meant when he talked about nice guys wasn't politeness, although that plays a part. It's the belief that being yourself and treating a girl with respect and maybe even admiration can make her like you (which is the point, before sex and all the rest of it). It can't, and it's obvious that other factors (whatever they may be) play a bigger role, and that politeness is likely to simply get you a place on the "friend" ladder.

There's nothing nice about generalizing your problems with a particular girl/woman to somehow stand for the actions of all women everywhere.
So am I supposed to try the same thing again then? Be myself, and talk about all sorts of things, and get to know her and get her to know me and then eventually ask her out - only to find out that there was never any point and get crushed horribly?
Generalisation or not, I have to try something different at some point.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 14:32
Girls, stop explaining. They are not going to understand.

Mainly because they do not want to, because if they do they would realize a lot of things that they do not want to realize.

I give guys more credit than that. I also hold them to a higher standard.

If a guy asks me, "Why do Nice Guys(tm) finish last?" I will answer him clearly and honestly. He's probably been fed gallons of misinformation over his lifetime, and I'm willing to take a moment to give him the straight story.


Remember that when you are not able to get whatever you want to get, it is easier to blame something or someone else than yourself.

Of course. The problem is that a lot of boys and men are told, for pretty much their entire lifetimes, that they ARE entitled to get whatever they want. They internalize this more than many of them realize. A lot of these guys are very nice and thoughtful human beings, they just happen to have a blindspot when it comes to relationships. They still have this notion that as long as they aren't hitting a women they are entitled to get some pussy. You'd be surprised how many of them will come around when you explain things to them logically.


Instead of blaming the women, blame yourself for not being more interesting than to be considered a friend. Nothing wrong with that, again, but stop accusing us of manipulating and having an agenda to prejudice men just because you want to get laid and do not find anyone to do it for or with you.

I think EVERYBODY needs to remember that even if you really are a nice person, that doesn't mean you're necessarily going to get a girlfriend or boyfriend. You could be a very kind, interesting, fun person, but you simply haven't made that kind of connection with anybody yet. It doesn't have to be about blame; it doesn't have to be YOUR fault or HER fault all the time. It might just be that she doesn't feel that type of chemistry with you.

And what is this bullshit about "not being more interesting than to be considered a friend"? As if being friends is something bad, or something that you settle for when somebody isn't worth dating? Screw that. My friends rock. If they didn't, they wouldn't be my friends. Just because I don't want to fuck them doesn't mean they're somehow less interesting or less wonderful people than my mate is. They're just people for whom I don't have romantic feelings. Nothing wrong with that.


Not all men are alike, why then should women then?

This is something that cannot be repeated enough times.

Women do not all like the same thing. Women are not all attracted to the same features. Women will not all be turned on by the same traits. Women are individuals.

Women are individuals. Please write this out 100 times before attempting to enter a relationship with a female human being.
Not bad
22-06-2006, 14:34
For fucks sake.

Maybe the reason you aren't getting the girls is because you think it's okay to lump every female in the world into one big group and make ridiculous generalisations about how girls act, what they want etc.

It's bullshit and if you can't treat a person as an individual you don't deserve to be in a relationship with that person.

The ladder theory is also bullshit and the same applies. If you base your actions in relationships on that, you don't deserve to have relationships.

This of course applies to both men and women, who either speak supposed truths about what their gender wants or what the opposite gender wants.

For example, confidence. So many woman respond to this topic with "nah, it's confidence us women want." Personally, confidence has absolutly no bearing on finding someone attractive. I can't see why it would. And I find it offensive to have anyone speak wrongly on my behalf and somehow act as if they know what I want better than I do just because they share the same reproductive organs as me. Or a man to say the same thing just because he's encountered someone with the same reproductive organs as me, and now thinks he is qualified to talk about what I want.

Of course, some people say, "oh but I'm just generalising". Yes. You are. And relationships don't work on generalisations. Don't work healthily anyway. Relationships involve individuals.

As I said earlier, if you can't cope with treating a person as an individual, you don't deserve a relationship with them.

Are you actually of the opinion that the best way towards a healthy relationship for a shy heterosexual male who is having no luck meeting females who are both interesting and interested in him is to remain shy and inconfident? That his individuality will somehow win the day for him and to go ahead and keep on doing what has failed him? Are you saying ignore all generalisations about women which might help understand why things havent worked so far for him and give him some confidence? If so you are not a kind person at all because you are likely going to doom him to fucked up relationships with ANY girl that will have him. I dunno what world you live in but in this one the ladder theory works one helluva a lot better for "nice guys" than continuing to be a "nice guy" like you would suggest does.

So far youve managed to merely say that nice guys dont deserve to be in relationships. Listed reasons why. Then bitched about how you dont like men to lump women together because eaxh woman is a sparkly jewell of an individual. Oh and told hgim that confidence is useless and certainly nothing to invest time obtaining. That is an enormous help. If you are trying to drum up business for psychiatrists.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 14:35
Plus, I refuse to believe that there aren't girls out there who know exactly what is going on and just make it go on because it makes them feel better about themselves. I mean, I asked that girl out for a movie after asking her whether she was single...how much more obvious can I get? And now she's pretending I never sent that message, and I don't see why I have to just take that. Honestly, about that first part? Not the girls I know.
I'll be the first to say that it can be awfully nice to have somebody to flirt with when the urge strikes, but it stops being fun when that somebody turns out to be way more into you than you ever were into him.

And, well, about the second part - I wasn't there, obviously, so I can't make any assumptions. But two points:

- are you really so sure you were so totally obvious? I mean, did it literally go like this "Oh, btw, are you single?" "Er, no." "Great, then will you go see a movie with me tonight?"?
Or did you ask her if she was single and then, some random time later, ask her "Hey, look, it's that movie we were talking about. We should totally go see it!"?

- Even if she had a hunch that you were interested in more than just being friends (and I really mean hunch, not "OMG, that guy is so obviously in love with me") I still think it would have been okay for her to go see a movie with you.
I mean, she obviously liked you enough to actually go to the movies with you in the first place, so why should she have been all "Hmmm, I have a suspicion this guy may be a bit more into me than I'll probably be into him - egads, I have to brake things off right now!". Would you do that? I don't think so.
Obviously, this does *not* mean that she has the right to string you along even after it becomes clear that you really *are* into her even though she ends being not into you.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 14:41
And what is this bullshit about "not being more interesting than to be considered a friend"? As if being friends is something bad, or something that you settle for when somebody isn't worth dating? Screw that. My friends rock. If they didn't, they wouldn't be my friends. Just because I don't want to fuck them doesn't mean they're somehow less interesting or less wonderful people than my mate is. They're just people for whom I don't have romantic feelings. Nothing wrong with that.
You know, they say that men are the ones who can't read and deal with emotions properly, but if you think there is nothing wrong with a situation in which one of your mates genuinely loves you, and you'd never consider him, but still keep him around (so to speak), then that's just nasty.

I'm not sure whether this has to do with girls generally having an easier time finding a partner or whether that is even true, but you might not have any idea how hurtful it is to be demoted like this, and even worse to then have to listen about those who were considered worthy when you were not. I mean, simply being dumped can be harsh, but this is just a step beyond that. It seriously gnaws away at you.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 14:47
Because:

-they have no mysterious allure
-they don't constitute a challenge
- good guys, sorry, but you're generally boring.
Oh, I've got a mysterious allure and am a challenge, but I'm just so damned annoying.:p
Bottle
22-06-2006, 14:48
To be fair, "nice" doesn't come up often there. :D
What comes up is disappointment and frustration.
When I mean "nice" I mean the kind of thing that happens when you end up being just friends, and you think by being nice to her in order to get more.

The idea that being friends means you are settling for some kind of inferior relationship is part of the problem, here.


Of course they're not nice for no reason, that would be ridiculous. No one is.

That's just fucking sick. I think that statement pretty much explains why these "nice" guys are single (and why, hopefully, they always will be).

Yes, plenty of people are nice for no reason. Plenty of people don't use niceness to try to get women to fuck them. Plenty of men have female friends because they find these women interesting, fun, and cool to hang with, even if they're not getting their cock sloppy. Will wonders never cease.


The niceness is just a manifestation of an entirely wrong approach.

No, the idea that acting kind in order to get sex is "nice" is the wrong approach. Ain't nothing "nice" about the attitude these guys have.


Personally I'd prefer a simple talk over having to find out the hard way after weeks of hoping and all that.

If you want a simple talk up front, then initiate it. Don't expect her to do your work for you.


But you probably shouldn't talk to me about that particular thing at the moment, because I'll find it hard to be neutral. I am just too sick and tired of being talked to about boyfriend troubles by girls who know I like them, and if I have to be harsh about it - fine. It's not like the thing isn't harsh on me as well.

Do you have any female friends you aren't interested in dating? If not, that's your problem right there.

If you are choosing to hang around with girls who are inconsiderate of your feelings, then that's a serious problem with your taste. If you are attracted to girls who treat you rudely or are manipulative, then you need to start figuring out why you are attracted to losers.

If you choose to pretend you are a girl's friend, and then she feels comfortable talking to you about personal issues that she would share with a friend, then you're a prime asshole for bitching about it afterwards. If you don't want to be "just friends," then tell her so. Don't sit around pretending to be her friend, listening to her problems, and faking like you give a shit in the hopes that one day she will give you a pity shag.


By the way, what do you think would happen if I just went and asked next time I meet someone I like. Just asked her: "Do you like me in that way, or do you just want to be friends?"

I think you'd do a lot better than hanging around pretending to be a girl's friend, when all you're really after is getting laid.


And when she chooses the latter, I won't bother.

So you won't bother with girls if they aren't interested in being your girlfriend. You rule out 50% of the potential friends you might make, because you can't see women as anything other than potential hookups. And yet, you're "nice"?


Yes, that's the point. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that - if you love someone, you want to be with them proper.

So you love all your female friends in a manner that leads you to want to "be with them proper"? Gee, do you think that's just a little bit...off?


As I said before, sex (at least for your traditional nice guy, ie sorta shy, possibly nerdy and so on) is a side-issue. Intimacy and a real relationship is what they're after, sex is a fringe benefit of that, although I'd be lying if it didn't play its due part.
And there is no point in trying to pursue that if the girl wants to be friends, you're just setting yourself up to get hurt again and again.

It's true that if you only want a romantic, sexual relationship with a woman, then there's no reason to pretend you want to be her friend. Of course, if you only want romantic, sexual relationships with women, and don't appreciate them as friends, then you're probably not the sort of guy who would make a quality boyfriend.


I think we need to divorce the "nice" as in "nice guy" from the normal use of the word "nice".

I think I've done that pretty clearly.


What Zilam meant when he talked about nice guys wasn't politeness, although that plays a part. It's the belief that being yourself and treating a girl with respect and maybe even admiration can make her like you (which is the point, before sex and all the rest of it).

Which is a pile of pure crap, as we all know. You're SUPPOSED to treat girls with respect! You don't get a cookie for that shit. And "being yourself"? What, as opposed to lying and pretending to be somebody you're not? Are we honestly going to sink to the level of saying that guys deserve pussy points for being honest and respectful?

Of course not. Because we don't award bonus points for doing the bare minimum that is expected of adult human beings.


It can't, and it's obvious that other factors (whatever they may be) play a bigger role, and that politeness is likely to simply get you a place on the "friend" ladder.

I'm really getting sick of this language that makes it sound like being somebody's friend is a crappy consolation prize.


So am I supposed to try the same thing again then? Be myself, and talk about all sorts of things, and get to know her and get her to know me and then eventually ask her out - only to find out that there was never any point and get crushed horribly?

If the only reason you are being yourself and talking to a girl is to get her to be your girlfriend, then you should stop associating with female human beings. You'll be doing them a favor.


Generalisation or not, I have to try something different at some point.
Yes, you do. Try thinking of women as actual people.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 14:49
And, well, about the second part - I wasn't there, obviously, so I can't make any assumptions. But two points...
It's a bit of a long story. But essentially I sent a message saying something like: "...Yeah, I'm not working on friday either. BTW are you single?"
To which she replied: "lol. yes, i am. what about you?"
And I replied (immediately, I was pretty excited at that point): "yeah, me too. listen, do you wanna go out and watch a movie on friday?"

I got no reply for two days, and on the third she presented me with her new boyfriend. Out of the blue, just like that. And now she thinks it's okay to just talk to me about him.

I mean, I suppose it's theoretically possible for her to have completely missed the point of me first enquiring whether she had a boyfriend, then asking her out for a movie...but how likely is it? She must've been pretty deep in this whole "he's just a friend" mindset to completely miss it, don't you think?
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 14:51
I give guys more credit than that. I also hold them to a higher standard.

Not refering to any guy. Please, I LOVE guys, but I like guys more centered and less manipulated. I meant this kind of..."Women are evil, they do not like me because they love guys who beat them and cheat them. I am so nice, why don't they date me?"

If a guy asks me, "Why do Nice Guys(tm) finish last?" I will answer him clearly and honestly. He's probably been fed gallons of misinformation over his lifetime, and I'm willing to take a moment to give him the straight story

I had three of those platonic love-friends in my life. Tried to explain it to them hundreds of times, that they were nice enough to be just friends but not attractive enough to have sex with them. they never seemed to be able to get it, but I still think it is possible, but then, meh, explaining it more than once is more than enough. They need to want to understand first, and these guys here in this thread do not look like wanting it.


Of course. The problem is that a lot of boys and men are told, for pretty much their entire lifetimes, that they ARE entitled to get whatever they want. They internalize this more than many of them realize. A lot of these guys are very nice and thoughtful human beings, they just happen to have a blindspot when it comes to relationships. They still have this notion that as long as they aren't hitting a women they are entitled to get some pussy. You'd be surprised how many of them will come around when you explain things to them logically.

Add the macho-galán stuff down here in Latin America and you will have a deadly cocktail. I think it could still be a cultural issue. And it is true, they are indeed nice guys, but just with a blindspot regarding the opposite gender. That doesn't give them the right to say that it is entirely women's fault.

I think EVERYBODY needs to remember that even if you really are a nice person, that doesn't mean you're necessarily going to get a girlfriend or boyfriend. You could be a very kind, interesting, fun person, but you simply haven't made that kind of connection with anybody yet. It doesn't have to be about blame; it doesn't have to be YOUR fault or HER fault all the time. It might just be that she doesn't feel that type of chemistry with you.

Entirely agree

And what is this bullshit about "not being more interesting than to be considered a friend"? As if being friends is something bad, or something that you settle for when somebody isn't worth dating? Screw that. My friends rock. If they didn't, they wouldn't be my friends. Just because I don't want to fuck them doesn't mean they're somehow less interesting or less wonderful people than my mate is. They're just people for whom I don't have romantic feelings. Nothing wrong with that.

I said "nothing wrong with that", regarding that it wasn't bad at all to be friends. What I meant is that they weren't interesting enough in a physical sense, not attractive, or magnetic, or pheromonical. That's all. And that is because, if they would be that interesting, in that way, I would be dating them, of course.
Cluichstan
22-06-2006, 14:52
I said "nothing wrong with that", regarding that it wasn't bad at all to be friends. What I meant is that they weren't interesting enough in a physical sense, not attractive, or magnetic, or pheromonical. That's all. And that is because, if they would be that interesting, in that way, I would be dating them, of course.

Of course. ;)
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 14:53
Of course they're not nice for no reason, that would be ridiculous. No one is.
That's just fucking sick. I think that statement pretty much explains why these "nice" guys are single (and why, hopefully, they always will be).

Yes, plenty of people are nice for no reason. Plenty of people don't use niceness to try to get women to fuck them.
Quoted for truth.

I think there's even more confusion on the definition of "nice guy" here than I thought it was.

Because if that's what "nice guy" means, well, to me that just says "asshole" right there.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 14:56
Are you saying ignore all generalisations about women which might help understand why things havent worked so far for him and give him some confidence?

Generalizations about women will not help ANYBODY understand why things haven't worked for them. Generalizations about women will do exactly the opposite.


If so you are not a kind person at all because you are likely going to doom him to fucked up relationships with ANY girl that will have him.

What, so telling a guy to view women as individuals is going to make him less likely to have a healthy relationship?


I dunno what world you live in but in this one the ladder theory works one helluva a lot better for "nice guys" than continuing to be a "nice guy" like you would suggest does.

Yeah, which is why Nice Guys(tm) are the ones always bitching about how they're still single. :P


So far youve managed to merely say that nice guys dont deserve to be in relationships. Listed reasons why. Then bitched about how you dont like men to lump women together because eaxh woman is a sparkly jewell of an individual.

Well...yeah. This person provided a list of reasons why "Nice Guys" aren't actually being nice. They explained why "Nice Guys" are actually being jerks, and therefore don't really deserve to be treated as anything other than the jerks they are. They explained (rightfully) that women are individuals, and that a guy who wants to have meaningful and healthy relationships with a women should be focusing on the INDIVIDUAL WOMAN he's interested in, not on some silly generalizations about all of womankind.


Oh and told hgim that confidence is useless and certainly nothing to invest time obtaining. That is an enormous help. If you are trying to drum up business for psychiatrists.
No, the poster was saying that it's stupid to claim that all women look for confidence in a man, when there are plenty of women who like "shy guys." That's simply the truth.

Look, if you're looking for some magical formula that will make you appealing to all women, you've already lost. There is no such formula. There's no magical generalization about women that will unlock the mysteries of life for you. Stop trying to attract "women," and start thinking about attracting a particular woman. Think about who you are as an individual, and look for a woman who responds to you. Find out about HER, as an individual, instead of worrying about what all women everywhere are after.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 15:01
Not refering to any guy. Please, I LOVE guys, but I like guys more centered and less manipulated. I meant this kind of..."Women are evil, they do not like me because they love guys who beat them and cheat them. I am so nice, why don't they date me?"

Well, I guess I just have a little bit more patience. I'm willing to give these guys a shot, and try to get them to answer the clue phone. Sometimes they come around.


I had three of those platonic love-friends in my life. Tried to explain it to them hundreds of times, that they were nice enough to be just friends but not attractive enough to have sex with them. they never seemed to be able to get it, but I still think it is possible, but then, meh, explaining it more than once is more than enough. They need to want to understand first, and these guys here in this thread do not look like wanting it.

A lot of people, male and female, don't seem to be able to understand platonic relationships with members of the opposite sex. I probably jumped on you more than you deserve, I just get so sick of people bad-mouthing "the friend zone" and shit like that. As if members of the opposite sex aren't really important unless they fuck you. It disgusts me because I would never talk trash about my friends like that.


Add the macho-galán stuff down here in Latin America and you will have a deadly cocktail. I think it could still be a cultural issue. And it is true, they are indeed nice guys, but just with a blindspot regarding the opposite gender. That doesn't give them the right to say that it is entirely women's fault.

True dat.


I said "nothing wrong with that", regarding that it wasn't bad at all to be friends. What I meant is that they weren't interesting enough in a physical sense, not attractive, or magnetic, or pheromonical. That's all. And that is because, if they would be that interesting, in that way, I would be dating them, of course.
I dunno about that, really. I've got friends that have a lot of chemistry with me, but we recognize that for one reason or another we just wouldn't make a good couple. There's also plenty of cases where I've had fun chemistry with somebody, but they're already in a relationship. Sure, sometimes you stew a bit over your crush on that person, but I find it's totally worth it to keep them as a friend even if you never end up dating.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 15:03
It's a bit of a long story. But essentially I sent a message saying something like: "...Yeah, I'm not working on friday either. BTW are you single?"
To which she replied: "lol. yes, i am. what about you?"
And I replied (immediately, I was pretty excited at that point): "yeah, me too. listen, do you wanna go out and watch a movie on friday?"

I got no reply for two days, and on the third she presented me with her new boyfriend. Out of the blue, just like that. And now she thinks it's okay to just talk to me about him.

I mean, I suppose it's theoretically possible for her to have completely missed the point of me first enquiring whether she had a boyfriend, then asking her out for a movie...but how likely is it? She must've been pretty deep in this whole "he's just a friend" mindset to completely miss it, don't you think?
She didn't miss it. Had she missed it, she would have replied right away.

Sigh. It's not much use for me to speculate about the motivations of someone I don't even know in a situation I know nothing about.

But to me her behaviour says that this is her way of telling you she's not interested without actually having to say "Um, listen, not to make presumptions about your motives, but if they are what I think they are: I'm not interested in you that way."
Because who likes to say that? It leaves you vulnerable and looking like an ass in case you presumed wrongly, plus it hurts the other person to hear it.

Of course, it also hurts them to hear about your new boyfriend (maybe even more) but at least then the hurting was an "unavoidable thing that just had to happen" (or so you rationalize) and not something you actively had to do.

ETA: Oh, and that she keeps telling you about him now means that she wants to keep your relationship where it was before - friends (who, obviously, would indeed talk about stuff like new boyfriends).
If you can't live with that, and you don't sound like you can, you'll have to tell her.
She'll probably be upset, but hey, you have a lot more invested in this than she does, so do what's right for you in this case, not for her.
The Blaatschapen
22-06-2006, 15:04
*lol
How would you know that?

Well, I'm not sure about the nice guy part(and don't care either) but at least I made you laugh now so I'm fun to be with :p
Koon Proxy
22-06-2006, 15:06
Theory: If the "nice guys" in fact want the same thing as the "bad guys", then the "bad guys" are going to get it, because they'll actually go out and make sure they get it, while the "good guys" fiddle around and try not to impose, or get in anybody's way. Of course, in this case given that the end goal is the same, we don't really have "good guys" and "bad guys", but what much more resembles the old caricatures of "bikers" and "wimps".

Extra theory/corrollary: There might actually be something in the old idea of not pursuing sex until marriage/until the woman's ready (depending on what culture you're talking about). By this theory, if a guy actually shows a willingness to wait like this, he'll get respect from the ladies, and maybe even *shock* be able to pursue a relationship, a real relationship, that will eventually, oddly enough, probably get him laid, but will also have the added benefits of both parties having someone who will know them, care for them, etc.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 15:13
Theory: If the "nice guys" in fact want the same thing as the "bad guys", then the "bad guys" are going to get it, because they'll actually go out and make sure they get it, while the "good guys" fiddle around and try not to impose, or get in anybody's way. Of course, in this case given that the end goal is the same, we don't really have "good guys" and "bad guys", but what much more resembles the old caricatures of "bikers" and "wimps".

And when you look at the "goal" that is shared by both the "nice guys" and the "bad guys," you find that neither of them is nice in the least. At least the "bad guys" are straightforward and honest about using women for sex; the "nice guys" want to be able to pretend that they're doing women a favor by pretending to give a shit.


Extra theory/corrollary: There might actually be something in the old idea of not pursuing sex until marriage/until the woman's ready (depending on what culture you're talking about).

Um, I think pretty much everybody ought to wait until the woman's ready. And the man, too. Because not waiting would be, you know, rape.


By this theory, if a guy actually shows a willingness to wait like this, he'll get respect from the ladies, and maybe even *shock* be able to pursue a relationship, a real relationship, that will eventually, oddly enough, probably get him laid, but will also have the added benefits of both parties having someone who will know them, care for them, etc.
This assumes, of course, that women don't want sex, or that they want sex less than men. Which is bunk. Women just also tend to want men to respect them and treat them like human beings. I don't think they should have to wait until marriage to get either one.

It also assumes that men deserve some kind of extra respect if they're willing to not pressure a girl into putting out. Which is also bunk. Men don't deserve added respect for showing some basic human decency. If you care about your partner, you shouldn't even remotely consider pressuring them to have sex before they are ready, and you certainly shouldn't expect them to reward you for showing this basic kindness. And you absolutely positively shouldn't be "showing willingness to wait" simply as a way to impress women and make them like you...you should be willing to wait for your partner because you're not a fucking rapist.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:14
Are you actually of the opinion that the best way towards a healthy relationship for a shy heterosexual male who is having no luck meeting females who are both interesting and interested in him is to remain shy and inconfident? That his individuality will somehow win the day for him and to go ahead and keep on doing what has failed him? Are you saying ignore all generalisations about women which might help understand why things havent worked so far for him and give him some confidence? If so you are not a kind person at all because you are likely going to doom him to fucked up relationships with ANY girl that will have him. I dunno what world you live in but in this one the ladder theory works one helluva a lot better for "nice guys" than continuing to be a "nice guy" like you would suggest does.
Well, I find that some women find the shy, uncertain men cute and attractive, but it doesn't last. They tend to become irritated at the lake of initiative on my...er, his part, and they never say anything about it; they just blacklist that sort of guy. So the problem then is finding a balance point where you can be your normal self and let them take an interest in that, and then strengthen yourself and try to pull yourself out of your seclusion. They'll like that you want to start revealing more of yourself just to them. And if you really like her, it shouldn't be a problem to try a bit for her. Just be careful not to overdo it. It takes a lot for that, but it could doom your efforts. Ah, well, live and learn, I suppose. Now I suppose I should take my own advice. First things first: finding women who interest me and aren't already taken.;)
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 15:14
The idea that being friends means you are settling for some kind of inferior relationship is part of the problem, here.
If I like a girl, and I want her to be my girlfriend, and hold her in my arms and all the rest of it, then "being friends" is an inferior relationship, then that is a crappy consolation price. I don't see how that is so difficult to understand.

Yes, plenty of people are nice for no reason. Plenty of people don't use niceness to try to get women to fuck them.
You're still trying to use sex as a way of somehow devaluing what I was really after with that girl. Go ahead if you must, but I don't think you're kidding anyone.

When I am "nice" (ie I am being myself, I talk to her like I would talk to anyone else, I make conversations and so on) then that is part of a mindset. I don't say "Oh, I'll do that as part of my plan", I say "pretending to be someone else is pointless, I'll be myself, I'll earn her respect, I treat her right". But what happens - suprise, surprise - is that she ends up thinking of me as a friend. Whether that is because of my approach, or because she was never going to consider me as anything more, I don't know.

What I do know is that there are tens of thousands of guys in the city this weekend using pickup lines and strategies and rules and all the rest of it, and they're somehow not having my problems. So what is the only logical conclusion? I need to change the way I act, and become just as fake and disgusting as they are. Do you think I like the prospect of pretending to be someone that I'm not?

Plenty of men have female friends because they find these women interesting, fun, and cool to hang with, even if they're not getting their cock sloppy. Will wonders never cease.
Yes, but these men are not interested in having anything more with these women, because they are not attracted to them. It's a bit of a Harry & Sally thing: if a guy is attracted to a girl, they cannot be friends without someone getting hurt.

Do you have any female friends you aren't interested in dating? If not, that's your problem right there.
I do. But what does that have to do with it? Are you assuming that I was being misogynistic or something?
I just want a girl to like me in that way. And I don't think that what I have been doing so far has any chance of success whatsoever. It's damn easy to get involved in very hurtful things when you love someone and they couldn't give a shit about you (in that way), and the ladder thing is just a way of protecting yourself against that.

If you are attracted to girls who treat you rudely or are manipulative, then you need to start figuring out why you are attracted to losers.
Any suggestions?

If you don't want to be "just friends," then tell her so. Don't sit around pretending to be her friend, listening to her problems, and faking like you give a shit in the hopes that one day she will give you a pity shag.
And bingo. Now you understand the Ladder Theory.
That is all it says, in a way that an angry and hurt guy will understand.

So you love all your female friends in a manner that leads you to want to "be with them proper"? Gee, do you think that's just a little bit...off?
No, but occasionally I meet girls who I want to have a romantic relationship with. In the past I have approached these situations the wrong way, largely by doing the same thing I would have done if I met anyone else.
That obviously never had a chance of working out, so I need to change the way I approach these girls.
How exactly am I meant to do it? If I knew, I wouldn't be having this problem, and I wouldn't be in the "nice guy" category.
The only clue that I have is all the surfer guys from campus who manage to lie and cheat and pretend their way through, and who seem happy enough. It's pretty depressing, and right now there is a lot of self-pity involved as well...but I'm running out of ideas here. I need to change my entire outlook.

Yes, you do. Try thinking of women as actual people.
Geez, that's really helping the discussion forward, isn't it?
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:21
She didn't miss it. Had she missed it, she would have replied right away.

Sigh. It's not much use for me to speculate about the motivations of someone I don't even know in a situation I know nothing about.

But to me her behaviour says that this is her way of telling you she's not interested without actually having to say "Um, listen, not to make presumptions about your motives, but if they are what I think they are: I'm not interested in you that way."
Because who likes to say that? It leaves you vulnerable and looking like an ass in case you presumed wrongly, plus it hurts the other person to hear it.

Of course, it also hurts them to hear about your new boyfriend (maybe even more) but at least then the hurting was an "unavoidable thing that just had to happen" (or so you rationalize) and not something you actively had to do.

ETA: Oh, and that she keeps telling you about him now means that she wants to keep your relationship where it was before - friends (who, obviously, would indeed talk about stuff like new boyfriends).
If you can't live with that, and you don't sound like you can, you'll have to tell her.
She'll probably be upset, but hey, you have a lot more invested in this than she does, so do what's right for you in this case, not for her.
I think it hurts more when they won't bother to tell you they aren't interested in that sort of relationship. It's a direct blow that can be more easily dealt with. When they resort to indirect methods, which usually take more time, it's like it sneaks around and chews into the heart. Much more difficult to cope with because neither of you wants to talk about it, but something needs to be resolved.
Koon Proxy
22-06-2006, 15:24
Um, I think pretty much everybody ought to wait until the woman's ready. And the man, too. Because not waiting would be, you know, rape.

I just meant not, like, you know, pressuring the gal into deciding that yes, she has the same opinion as you do about when a good time for sex is.

This assumes, of course, that women don't want sex, or that they want sex less than men. Which is bunk. Women just also tend to want men to respect them and treat them like human beings. I don't think they should have to wait until marriage to get either one.

No, it assumes the woman's opinion is a tiny bit more important than the guy's, and he should be willing in the relationship to give a little on that point, because the consequences and risks and stuff are greater for the woman, and he shgould respect that.

It also assumes that men deserve some kind of extra respect if they're willing to not pressure a girl into putting out. Which is also bunk. Men don't deserve added respect for showing some basic human decency. If you care about your partner, you shouldn't even remotely consider pressuring them to have sex before they are ready, and you certainly shouldn't expect them to reward you for showing this basic kindness. And you absolutely positively shouldn't be "showing willingness to wait" simply as a way to impress women and make them like you...you should be willing to wait for your partner because you're not a fucking rapist.

Well, yeah. But could you tell that from some of the "omg these girls will put out for the bad guys but not for me!" posts in this thread? No. That's whom I was chiefly addressing.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 15:26
I think it hurts more when they won't bother to tell you they aren't interested in that sort of relationship. It's a direct blow that can be more easily dealt with. When they resort to indirect methods, which usually take more time, it's like it sneaks around and chews into the heart. Much more difficult to cope with because neither of you wants to talk about it, but something needs to be resolved.
Correct. Unfortunately people often don't do the right thing, but rather the take the path of least resistance.
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 15:28
Aaaanyways, I'm thinking I'm not making a lot of friends right here, right now. Plus, it's after twelve and the Oz game starts at 5AM.

I got out of the ladder theory what I needed, which is a confirmation of the obvious - that being friends with a girl will not lead to romance.

What I need now is a different way of approaching a girl that I like. My alternatives are the macho-type way that seems to work for everyone else, namely do lots of exercise, dye my hair blonde and use pre-studied tactics and lines to cheat my way through, and a presumably better third way which I have no idea about.

What I would appreciate is a proper explanation what that third way is, because "be yourself" just doesn't cut it in my case, not unless I introduce serious changes somewhere.

And now I'll sleep and log back in tomorrow, and I'll see. I hope you guys won't take the things I said in the wrong way, as I said, there is a lot of pain and self-pity in there together with a lot of stress in recent weeks. I'm not that bad a guy, believe me, I guess I'm just very misguided...
Francis Street
22-06-2006, 15:31
Oh, I know what you mean. As a female, perhaps you can answer: why do women like confidence in men?
The same reason why men like confidence in women.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:31
Correct. Unfortunately people often don't do the right thing, but rather the take the path of least resistance.
And in trying to reduce the pain for both people involved, they increase it and the discomfort involved, which can lead to bitterness and jealousy for the rejected party if they maintain contact. People always screw things up by trying to skirt their way around the heart of issues.
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 15:34
Well, I'm not sure about the nice guy part(and don't care either) but at least I made you laugh now so I'm fun to be with :p

*lol
Ok, so you made me laugh. So does Spongebob :p ;)
Francis Street
22-06-2006, 15:35
I give you the ladder theory of adult male/female interaction.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

You can thank me after you start getting lucky.
Ah, not that shit again.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:37
Aaaanyways, I'm thinking I'm not making a lot of friends right here, right now. Plus, it's after twelve and the Oz game starts at 5AM.

I got out of the ladder theory what I needed, which is a confirmation of the obvious - that being friends with a girl will not lead to romance.

What I need now is a different way of approaching a girl that I like. My alternatives are the macho-type way that seems to work for everyone else, namely do lots of exercise, dye my hair blonde and use pre-studied tactics and lines to cheat my way through, and a presumably better third way which I have no idea about.

What I would appreciate is a proper explanation what that third way is, because "be yourself" just doesn't cut it in my case, not unless I introduce serious changes somewhere.

And now I'll sleep and log back in tomorrow, and I'll see. I hope you guys won't take the things I said in the wrong way, as I said, there is a lot of pain and self-pity in there together with a lot of stress in recent weeks. I'm not that bad a guy, believe me, I guess I'm just very misguided...
You shouldn't be anyone but who you are. If she doesn't like that, well, too bad for her. Perhaps you could be a stronger version of you. Dunno how to make that happen. My personality has slowly been strengthening over the last few years, not by choice, so I don't really know how you could make that work. Or if you can't do that, and she still isn't interested, find someone better for you.
Magus Anton LaVey
22-06-2006, 15:38
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

Read 'The Prince' by Niccolo Machiavelli and apply it to your relationships rather then politics!!! Basically, you've got to be 50/50! Know when to be the 'good guy' but, know when certain situations call for a dickish arse-hole!
Find the balance and you've got it made!
Bottle
22-06-2006, 15:39
If I like a girl, and I want her to be my girlfriend, and hold her in my arms and all the rest of it, then "being friends" is an inferior relationship, then that is a crappy consolation price. I don't see how that is so difficult to understand.

I'm sorry you feel that way. You're probably missing out on a lot of really cool friendships.


You're still trying to use sex as a way of somehow devaluing what I was really after with that girl. Go ahead if you must, but I don't think you're kidding anyone.

Well, what's the diff? If you're not after sex, then why can't you be happy with a non-sexual relationship with this girl?


When I am "nice" (ie I am being myself, I talk to her like I would talk to anyone else, I make conversations and so on) then that is part of a mindset. I don't say "Oh, I'll do that as part of my plan", I say "pretending to be someone else is pointless, I'll be myself, I'll earn her respect, I treat her right". But what happens - suprise, surprise - is that she ends up thinking of me as a friend. Whether that is because of my approach, or because she was never going to consider me as anything more, I don't know.

So what have you lost? You've got a friend! I know it can stink if you like somebody and they don't feel the same for you, but what's the big fucking deal? It happens.


What I do know is that there are tens of thousands of guys in the city this weekend using pickup lines and strategies and rules and all the rest of it, and they're somehow not having my problems.

How the hell do you know they aren't having problems? Do you check up on all of them, and find out that they are in happy, fulfilling relationships?


So what is the only logical conclusion? I need to change the way I act, and become just as fake and disgusting as they are.

No, the logical conclusion is that if you want fake, disgusting, shallowly sexual relationships, then you should be a fake, disgusting, shallow person who makes his fake, disgusting, shallow desires known. If, on the other hand, you want a meaningful relationships, then you should be willing to accept that you're not going to find any magical formula.


Do you think I like the prospect of pretending to be someone that I'm not?

Aparently you do. You seem quite willing to toss aside your personality in order to get women to date you.


Yes, but these men are not interested in having anything more with these women, because they are not attracted to them. It's a bit of a Harry & Sally thing: if a guy is attracted to a girl, they cannot be friends without someone getting hurt.

I'm sorry that the people you hang out with are loser, but I want to assure you that they don't represent the whole of adult humanity. Plenty of men and women have wonderful friendships with members of the opposite sex. You need new friends.


I do. But what does that have to do with it? Are you assuming that I was being misogynistic or something?

Some of the things you've said are mildly mysogynistic, yes. I don't think you're a woman-hater at your core, I think you're just a bit clueless on how adult relationships (romantic and otherwise) work.

If I thought you were a total dick, I wouldn't be wasting time talking to you. I think you're probably a decent human being who is confused and frustrated with the good ol' Game Of Love. I would be delighted if I could get through to you and help you avoid stumbling through life with a bunch of silly misconceptions.


I just want a girl to like me in that way. And I don't think that what I have been doing so far has any chance of success whatsoever.

I honestly can't say, since I don't know exactly what you've been doing. It is certainly possible that something you have been doing is putting women off. It's possible there is something about you that women are not attracted to. It's probably a good idea for you to try to figure out if that is the case.

However, it is NOT a good idea for you to make some sweeping overhaul and try to throw out your entire personality in favor of acting like the pub-crawling creeps who have a book of pickup lines to toss at women. First of all, if you really are a decent person, you won't really be able to do this anyhow, because you'll feel like a slimeball for doing it (and you'll be right to feel that way). Secondly, even if it DOES work, why would you want to be with the kind of woman who is attracted to that crap?


It's damn easy to get involved in very hurtful things when you love someone and they couldn't give a shit about you (in that way),

It may hurt to have romantic feelings for somebody who only sees you as a platonic friend, but if they respect you or care about you they will not intentionally cause you any additional pain. Just because they don't love you romantically doesn't mean they don't give a shit about you...or, at least, it shouldn't mean that, and if they act as though it does then they aren't somebody who deserves your love in the first place.


and the ladder thing is just a way of protecting yourself against that.

There are plenty of times when being a jerk will protect you against emotional harm. It's a pre-emptive strike, more or less. But you're still a jerk at the end of the day.


Any suggestions?

Honestly, it's a tough question.

You can correct me if you think I'm way off base here, but I feel like you are an example of a kind of guy I've encountered a lot. You're a guy who is still sorting out what kind of person he is, and (consequently) you're also still trying to figure out what kind of person you want to be with.

Sometimes you will have romantic feelings for a girl even though part of you knows that she's not really right for you. Sometimes you'll have feelings for a girl who doesn't really treat you very respectfully. And sometimes you feel like a prize chump, because here you are caring so much about this girl, and she's not showing the least bit of consideration for you.

The best thing you can do is stop lumping all girls/women together, particularly if they treat you unfairly. That lets them off the hook. Don't say, "She's being this way because women don't like nice guys!" Say, "This girl is acting like a jerk to me." Don't let anybody, male or female, get away with hurting you or manipulating you. Don't let them off the hook by telling yourself that it's just how women act...women are perfectly capable of being respectful and caring! If a woman acts like a jerk, it's because SHE is being a jerk. It's not "women" that are the problem, it is that particular woman.


And bingo. Now you understand the Ladder Theory.
That is all it says, in a way that an angry and hurt guy will understand.

I know that angry, hurt guys will often rush to blame Womankind for their pain, just like angry, hurt girls will rush to blame Mankind for theirs. Both are equally wrong for doing so.

In any given relationship between two people, there are two people. Those two people--and NOT their genders--are what is important. Focus on yourself and the person you are interacting with, instead of getting distracted by your genders.


No, but occasionally I meet girls who I want to have a romantic relationship with. In the past I have approached these situations the wrong way, largely by doing the same thing I would have done if I met anyone else.
That obviously never had a chance of working out, so I need to change the way I approach these girls.

I'm not sure what you mean here. There's not going to be some special way of approaching women that will always end up with them wanting to date you. There's not even one approach that will be most successful in communicating your interest to them.


How exactly am I meant to do it? If I knew, I wouldn't be having this problem, and I wouldn't be in the "nice guy" category.

Get to know a girl before you decide if you want to ask her out. That way, by the time you've decided you're interested in her, you'll know about her. You'll know things about her personality, and you'll have a much better idea of how she might respond to different approaches.

Really, just use your sense of empathy. You know that there are some ways a girl could approach you that would put you off, while there are other ways that would absolutely make you melt. You also know that there are certain girls who you wouldn't be interested in no matter how they approach you. Keep in mind that this is how girls work, too.


The only clue that I have is all the surfer guys from campus who manage to lie and cheat and pretend their way through, and who seem happy enough.

Would you be happy being a lying cheater, if it meant you could trick girls into going out with you?


It's pretty depressing, and right now there is a lot of self-pity involved as well...but I'm running out of ideas here. I need to change my entire outlook.

It's true, you do need to let go of some of the self-pity if you want to have a real chance at a healthy relationship. But that's easy to say, and hard to do.

To be honest, I went through a stretch like that during my freshman year in college, and my solution was to give up on dating for a little while. I realized that I needed to just wallow in self-pity for a little while, to get it out of my system so to speak, and only after I did this would I be able to get back into the dating scene. Sometimes you need to take a break for a bit, step back, and take a look at things from a new angle.


Geez, that's really helping the discussion forward, isn't it?
Forgive me, but it seems to need repeating.

You, along with a lot of other guys, insist on looking at women as a category. You want to be in "a relationship" with "a woman." You want "somebody" to hold. You seem to be more in love with the idea of a girlfriend than you could ever be with an actual girl. I think that's at the root of the problem.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
22-06-2006, 15:39
You're still trying to use sex as a way of somehow devaluing what I was really after with that girl. Go ahead if you must, but I don't think you're kidding anyone.
Well, that's how you made it sound: Of course they're not nice for no reason, that would be ridiculous. No one is.
Which completely contradicts what you are saying now:
When I am "nice" (ie I am being myself, I talk to her like I would talk to anyone else, I make conversations and so on) then that is part of a mindset. I don't say "Oh, I'll do that as part of my plan", I say "pretending to be someone else is pointless, I'll be myself, I'll earn her respect, I treat her right".



What I do know is that there are tens of thousands of guys in the city this weekend using pickup lines and strategies and rules and all the rest of it, and they're somehow not having my problems. So what is the only logical conclusion? I need to change the way I act, and become just as fake and disgusting as they are. Do you think I like the prospect of pretending to be someone that I'm not?

[...]so I need to change the way I approach these girls.
How exactly am I meant to do it? If I knew, I wouldn't be having this problem, and I wouldn't be in the "nice guy" category.
The only clue that I have is all the surfer guys from campus who manage to lie and cheat and pretend their way through, and who seem happy enough. It's pretty depressing, and right now there is a lot of self-pity involved as well...but I'm running out of ideas here. I need to change my entire outlook.
First off: the bolded part, while understandable, is pretty crucial here - it's coloring everything you see & say right now.

To wit: the idea that guys somehow get these awesome relationships by picking girls up in bars with cheesy pickup lines and by being fake and disgusting and lying and cheating is complete bullshit. It obviously seems that way to you right now, but it's just not true. Which, come one, you totally know.

Just stay true to yourself, that's all you can do. And as frustrated as you are right now, the day will come when you get the girl. It sucks, but there it is.


ETA: :p I just saw your post above and read that telling you to "just be yourself" is apparently a big no-no. So I'll just quote Bottle's most brilliant post right above this one:
I honestly can't say, since I don't know exactly what you've been doing. It is certainly possible that something you have been doing is putting women off. It's possible there is something about you that women are not attracted to. It's probably a good idea for you to try to figure out if that is the case.

However, it is NOT a good idea for you to make some sweeping overhaul and try to throw out your entire personality in favor of acting like the pub-crawling creeps who have a book of pickup lines to toss at women. First of all, if you really are a decent person, you won't really be able to do this anyhow, because you'll feel like a slimeball for doing it (and you'll be right to feel that way). Secondly, even if it DOES work, why would you want to be with the kind of woman who is attracted to that crap?
What she said. *nods*

But still: Stay true to yourself, m'kay?
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:40
*lol
Ok, so you made me laugh. So does Spongebob :p ;)
Ooo, ouch! Equation with Spongebob. You know just how to kill an ego, don't you?;) Good thing it wasn't mine.:p
Bottle
22-06-2006, 15:41
I think it hurts more when they won't bother to tell you they aren't interested in that sort of relationship. It's a direct blow that can be more easily dealt with. When they resort to indirect methods, which usually take more time, it's like it sneaks around and chews into the heart. Much more difficult to cope with because neither of you wants to talk about it, but something needs to be resolved.
I happen to agree, but you have to try to see things from the girl's perspective. Very often, if a girl simply says, "I don't want to go out with you," she gets called a bitch. Very often, the person she rejected will go around saying some really rotten things about her. Even other girls will tell her that she was way too mean.

This ties in with the male entitlement thing; if a girl turns down a guy, she's supposed to justify it. If the guy is a nice fellow, people demand to know how she could dare to not go out with him. They insist that she must think there's something wrong with him if she doesn't want to date him, and thus they interpret it as an insult that she has turned him down.

I think it's generally best to be straight-forward in telling somebody if you aren't interested, but I also know it can be very hard to find a way to do this without coming across as a real jackass. We should all remember that girls and guys are often still figuring these things out, and they're just trying their best not to hurt anybody's feelings. They may make mistakes, but usually it's a geniune mistake rather than an intentional slam.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:44
Read 'The Prince' by Niccolo Machiavelli and apply it to your relationships rather then politics!!! Basically, you've got to be 50/50! Know when to be the 'good guy' but, know when certain situations call for a dickish arse-hole!
Find the balance and you've got it made!
Bah! Don't corrupt the sacred world of intimate relationships with that rubbish. It'll only make the poor bastard a sociopath who wants a better version of what everyone else has simply as a display of his power. It won't make him happy in any respect. And ultimately, he'd be outdone by someone who truly appreciates that the opposite gender is composed of people, not little plastic pawns.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 15:44
I just meant not, like, you know, pressuring the gal into deciding that yes, she has the same opinion as you do about when a good time for sex is.

Yeah. Because it's fucked up to try to have sex with somebody who doesn't really want to have sex with you. Any decent human being should act that way, regardless of whether or not they're trying to get into a relationship.


No, it assumes the woman's opinion is a tiny bit more important than the guy's, and he should be willing in the relationship to give a little on that point, because the consequences and risks and stuff are greater for the woman, and he shgould respect that.

It's twisted to claim that a woman's opinion on sex is any more or less important than her lover's. Men should recognize a woman's right to say "No" to sex, just like women should respect a man's right to do the same.

Yes, women have some additional considerations when it comes to sex. But that doesn't mean their "Yes" or "No" is more important than a man's. It just means that "Yes" means "Yes," and "No" means "No." Respect you partner's choice, no matter what their reasons for making it.
Magus Anton LaVey
22-06-2006, 15:46
Bah! Don't corrupt the sacred world of intimate relationships with that rubbish. It'll only make the poor bastard a sociopath who wants a better version of what everyone else has simply as a display of his power. It won't make him happy in any respect. And ultimately, he'd be outdone by someone who truly appreciates that the opposite gender is composed of people, not little plastic pawns.

LMAO...:p !!! I know I gave the advice but that was still a great comeback!!!
The Blaatschapen
22-06-2006, 15:48
Look, if you're looking for some magical formula that will make you appealing to all women, you've already lost. There is no such formula.

Hey! You're underestimating me ;)
Glitziness
22-06-2006, 15:49
Are you saying ignore all generalisations about women which might help understand why things havent worked so far for him and give him some confidence? and If so you are not a kind person at all because you are likely going to doom him to fucked up relationships with ANY girl that will have him.
Generalisations won't help someone understand how to make things work with an individual, and will only give false confidence. If you can't deal with the reality that relationships are hard, and take effort, and you have to actually figure out what to do based on the situation, rather than relying on generalisations that might just be utter crap, you shouldn't be in the relationship.

Making all your decisions based on a stereotype of women is what will lead to a fucked up relationship. How is viewing a woman as a person who is different from everyone else (just like the guy himself is a person different from everyone else) a bad thing? How is it in any way not the healthiest and best thing to do?

Are you actually of the opinion that the best way towards a healthy relationship for a shy heterosexual male who is having no luck meeting females who are both interesting and interested in him is to remain shy and inconfident?
Where did I say that?

I never said to be shy and inconfident. I said that, personally, confidence or a lack of confidence has no affect on my attraction to someone. You're completely and utterly twisting my words.

You're also doing a prime example of what I'm saying not to do. Just because I don't hold confidence as a necessarily attractive feature, that is me, not all woman, and therefore the information is only relevant if the guy wants to interest me.
That his individuality will somehow win the day for him and to go ahead and keep on doing what has failed him?
Where did I say that?

I don't even know how to respond to that because I've no idea where you're getting it from.

I never once said that anything would guarantee a relationship, and I never said not to work on issues with relationships. The only thing I said was that people should treat others as individuals.

So far youve managed to merely say that nice guys dont deserve to be in relationships.
Where did I say that?

Again, you've totally twisted my words.
I said that anyone who lumps all woman together, be they "nice guys" or not, doesn't deserve to be in a relationship with a woman (and vice versa for men).

Then bitched about how you dont like men to lump women together because eaxh woman is a sparkly jewell of an individual.
Where did I say that?
I said that women are individuals. People are individuals. That's not a good or bad thing, it's just a fact. Deal with it.
(edit: I'd also like to add that a multitude of women piss me off, and I definitly wouldn't describe as sparkly jewels.)

And the reason I'm saying for men not to lump women together (and women not to lump men together, and women not to lump women together, and men not to lump men together) is because a relationship will never work and never be healthy unless you can treat the person as individual.

Oh and told hgim that confidence is useless and certainly nothing to invest time obtaining.
Where did I say that?

I said that confidence is not something that affects my attraction to someone. My whole point in saying that was to show that women like different things, so applying it so broadly as to be "useless" for gaining females is ridiculous, and even if it did apply to all women, how would that make it useless? Where did I ever express the view that a characteristic is only good if it attracts women? I never once said anything negative about confidence, except to say that it does not attract me to a guy.

Your whole post is just full of completely unbased accusations where you've totally twisted my words.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:54
I happen to agree, but you have to try to see things from the girl's perspective. Very often, if a girl simply says, "I don't want to go out with you," she gets called a bitch. Very often, the person she rejected will go around saying some really rotten things about her. Even other girls will tell her that she was way too mean.

This ties in with the male entitlement thing; if a girl turns down a guy, she's supposed to justify it. If the guy is a nice fellow, people demand to know how she could dare to not go out with him. They insist that she must think there's something wrong with him if she doesn't want to date him, and thus they interpret it as an insult that she has turned him down.

I think it's generally best to be straight-forward in telling somebody if you aren't interested, but I also know it can be very hard to find a way to do this without coming across as a real jackass. We should all remember that girls and guys are often still figuring these things out, and they're just trying their best not to hurt anybody's feelings. They may make mistakes, but usually it's a geniune mistake rather than an intentional slam.
Yes, I forget how vindictive people can be. I get too depressed when I'm rejected to do anything like that. It doesn't make me angry, maybe frustrated, but not angry. I figure I just have to move along and look for someone else. The "It's probably for the best" sort of thing. Of course, I don't believe that, but eh, it motivates me to find some new obsession. I wouldn't mind justification, but usually I figure it's just because I don't play on her right strings to warrant a more intimate interest in me.

Yeah, I think people should handle rejection better. We tend to be such sore losers. Whining and bitching about how someone could possibly reject you is a shallow waste of time and energy. We aren't cardboard structures, but some people sure could fool me.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 15:56
LMAO...:p !!! I know I gave the advice but that was still a great comeback!!!
Because it's the truth. I win.;) :cool:
Francis Street
22-06-2006, 15:57
Yeah. Because it's fucked up to try to have sex with somebody who doesn't really want to have sex with you. Any decent human being should act that way, regardless of whether or not they're trying to get into a relationship.
Pressuring a woman into having sex can surely only be self-defeating.
The Blaatschapen
22-06-2006, 16:00
*lol
Ok, so you made me laugh. So does Spongebob :p ;)

Sorry, I don't like girls that have a Spongebob fetish ;)

@Leonstein: Good luck in recovering and gain some more confidence in yourself :) After that, tease the girls. Teasing helps (at least that is my experience).
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 16:02
Sorry, I don't like girls that have a Spongebob fetish ;)

@Leonstein: Good luck in recovering and gain some more confidence in yourself :) After that, tease the girls. Teasing helps (at least that is my experience).

Another generalization.

The female gender is not a herd, we want to be treated as individuals and to feel special as such.
Cluichstan
22-06-2006, 16:04
Another generalization.

The female gender is not a herd, we want to be treated as individuals and to feel special as such.


All of the generalizations in this thread are what make it so tiresome.
The Blaatschapen
22-06-2006, 16:13
Another generalization.

The female gender is not a herd, we want to be treated as individuals and to feel special as such.

Whoops, sorry. I'll try to be Politically Correct then and give good advice now :p

@Leonstein: Gain some more confidence and then figure out a third way to get this special girl. I don't know what this third way is, because obviously you're different than me and it also depends on that special girl :)

@Aelosia: Better now? :)
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 16:13
Another generalization.

The female gender is not a herd, we want to be treated as individuals and to feel special as such.
Which is why teasing works for me. It tells her that I think she is special enough to warrant esoteric attention.
Eutrusca
22-06-2006, 16:14
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
In my experience, it's only those women who are very immature or who have serious self-image problems who behave that way. It's a combination of fascination with the "bad boy" image, and a lack of experience and/or knowledge as to what will happen. You can take some comfort in knowing that most of these women will wind up fat, desperate housewives with three screaming brats and a husband who drinks up all the rent money and screws everything he can get his hands on ( that is, if he's even stuck around at all ).

The wiser women are out there, all you have to do is concentrate on being the best "you" you can be and have patience.
Aelosia
22-06-2006, 16:15
Whoops, sorry. I'll try to be Politically Correct then and give good advice now :p

@Leonstein: Gain some more confidence and then figure out a third way to get this special girl. I don't know what this third way is, because obviously you're different than me and it also depends on that special girl :)

@Aelosia: Better now? :)

A bit. Trying to hit on a different girl would also work, too. One that can be truly interested in him.
The Blaatschapen
22-06-2006, 16:16
Yes, I forgot that part. This special girl can be anyone he wants it to be. *nods*
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 16:25
A bit. Trying to hit on a different girl would also work, too. One that can be truly interested in him.
Sound advice. But maybe he isn't quite ready to give up on that. Sometimes it's not so easy to tell when someone is interested or not.
Glitziness
22-06-2006, 16:32
In my experience, it's only those women who are very immature or who have serious self-image problems who behave that way. It's a combination of fascination with the "bad boy" image, and a lack of experience and/or knowledge as to what will happen. You can take some comfort in knowing that most of these women will wind up fat, desperate housewives with three screaming brats and a husband who drinks up all the rent money and screws everything he can get his hands on ( that is, if he's even stuck around at all ).

The wiser women are out there, all you have to do is concentrate on being the best "you" you can be and have patience.
Very probably true, and some good (frustrating but good) advice there :)
Haven't seen you round in a while.... how's you? :fluffle:
Bottle
22-06-2006, 17:19
Yes, I forget how vindictive people can be. I get too depressed when I'm rejected to do anything like that. It doesn't make me angry, maybe frustrated, but not angry. I figure I just have to move along and look for someone else. The "It's probably for the best" sort of thing. Of course, I don't believe that, but eh, it motivates me to find some new obsession. I wouldn't mind justification, but usually I figure it's just because I don't play on her right strings to warrant a more intimate interest in me.

Yeah, I think people should handle rejection better. We tend to be such sore losers. Whining and bitching about how someone could possibly reject you is a shallow waste of time and energy. We aren't cardboard structures, but some people sure could fool me.
Indeed, though I totally understand how rotten it feels to get turned down.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I know that I will usually find a way to get pissed off no matter how nice a person is about rejecting me. Even if they do everything right, and are totally honest and respectful and straightforward, I'll still find some reason why they're a total jerk in that moment. Because I'm HURT, goddammit! I like them, they don't like me, and that just freaking SUCKS.

The trick is to let yourself feel rotten about it for a bit, but then cool down and look at the situation again when some of the hurt has worn off. And, while you're cooling down, it's probably best not to immediately try to hook up with somebody else. The lingering hurt feelings will just get in your way.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 17:21
Pressuring a woman into having sex can surely only be self-defeating.
Some guys seem to simply want to HAVE SEX, even if it is really crappy sex with a girl who doesn't actually want to sleep with them. I feel deeply sorry for those guys, and for any girl unlucky enough to become involved with them.

The best sex is the kind where both people are enthusiastic participants. You may be able to badger or trick a girl/guy into having sex with you, but you can't trick somebody into WANTING to have sex with you. And, as far as I'm concerned, sex with somebody who doesn't want it just isn't worth having.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 17:26
In my experience, it's only those women who are very immature or who have serious self-image problems who behave that way. It's a combination of fascination with the "bad boy" image, and a lack of experience and/or knowledge as to what will happen. You can take some comfort in knowing that most of these women will wind up fat, desperate housewives with three screaming brats and a husband who drinks up all the rent money and screws everything he can get his hands on ( that is, if he's even stuck around at all ).

The wiser women are out there, all you have to do is concentrate on being the best "you" you can be and have patience.
A lot of guys tell me about how the girls they try to get with are all shallow, insecure, manipulative bitches. And I ask these guys, "Why are you trying to date shallow, insecure, manipulative bitches?"

Some of them get this blank stare, and then say, "Gosh. I don't know!" Then the lightbulb goes off, and they realize that part of their problem is that they're just trying to hook up with any attractive female within eyeshot, even though many of these gals aren't worth the time of day.

On the other hand, some of them respond to me, "All women are that way!" These are the jerks of the bunch, and it's probably just as well that they can't get dates.

Yes, there are women who are jerks. Yes, there are women who make really stupid choices in their love lives. There are also men who do this. There are plenty of PEOPLE who make stupid choices. The solution? DON'T DATE THOSE PEOPLE.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 17:34
Indeed, though I totally understand how rotten it feels to get turned down.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I know that I will usually find a way to get pissed off no matter how nice a person is about rejecting me. Even if they do everything right, and are totally honest and respectful and straightforward, I'll still find some reason why they're a total jerk in that moment. Because I'm HURT, goddammit! I like them, they don't like me, and that just freaking SUCKS.

The trick is to let yourself feel rotten about it for a bit, but then cool down and look at the situation again when some of the hurt has worn off. And, while you're cooling down, it's probably best not to immediately try to hook up with somebody else. The lingering hurt feelings will just get in your way.
Yeah, I undertand the anger. But I can't let myself feel angry about things like that. I loathe the way it feels and I don't want to do anything I know I'll regret later. That'll get in the way more than the pain of rejection. I find your cool-down method works really well in tandem with a good soundtrack like: "I'm Not Okay" by My Chemical Romance followed by "Here's to the Night" by Eve6 followed by "Pain" by Jimmy Eat World. Just something with the energy and proper mood to help sweep the pain slowly away.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 17:38
Yeah, I undertand the anger. But I can't let myself feel angry about things like that. I loathe the way it feels and I don't want to do anything I know I'll regret later. That'll get in the way more than the pain of rejection. I find your cool-down method works really well in tandem with a good soundtrack like: "I'm Not Okay" by My Chemical Romance followed by "Here's to the Night" by Eve6 followed by "Pain" by Jimmy Eat World. Just something with the energy and proper mood to help sweep the pain slowly away.
Yeah, angst music is KEY. Sometimes you really need to wallow in the crappiness of rejection, and there's no better way than setting it to music.

Also, I find that singing along to depressing music will help keep me from composing horrible poems of my own. And, let's face it, the one thing this world does not need is more rejected lovers expressing their woe through verse.
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 20:26
Sorry, I don't like girls that have a Spongebob fetish ;)

@Leonstein: Good luck in recovering and gain some more confidence in yourself :) After that, tease the girls. Teasing helps (at least that is my experience).

I've got a number of fetishes, but Spongebob doesn't belong to them. :p Think of it as a fling on the side

Teasing, eh? I'll have to watch out for that...
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 20:27
Yeah, angst music is KEY. Sometimes you really need to wallow in the crappiness of rejection, and there's no better way than setting it to music.

Also, I find that singing along to depressing music will help keep me from composing horrible poems of my own. And, let's face it, the one thing this world does not need is more rejected lovers expressing their woe through verse.
Yep. That's usually the best way to keep from becoming dangerously angry. Yeah, the music usually keeps it under control. The singing to it might help more with some. I don't usually, but sometimes it helps. Then again, I don't really sing much. I think the world has enough material from rejected lovers. Reading it helps, but writing would be flogging a dead horse.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 21:47
All of the generalizations in this thread are what make it so tiresome.
ALL WOMEN WANT MEAN GUYS! ALL GUYS WANT SEX! ALL WOMEN WANT MONEY!!! ALL MEN WANT SEX!!!!

Hmm, I think I see why generalizations are so popular...it took like half a second to type those out, and I didn't have to actually have human contact to come up wtih them.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 21:51
ALL WOMEN WANT MEAN GUYS! ALL GUYS WANT SEX! ALL WOMEN WANT MONEY!!! ALL MEN WANT SEX!!!!

Hmm, I think I see why generalizations are so popular...it took like half a second to type those out, and I didn't have to actually have human contact to come up wtih them.
Point taken. Warning to n00bs. Post that rubbish and Bottle will destroy you. *nods solemnly*
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 21:56
ALL WOMEN WANT MEAN GUYS! ALL GUYS WANT SEX! ALL WOMEN WANT MONEY!!! ALL MEN WANT SEX!!!!

Hmm, I think I see why generalizations are so popular...it took like half a second to type those out, and I didn't have to actually have human contact to come up wtih them.

Hey, I wouldn't say no to the money... and the sex.... omg, I'm a stereotype!!!
Bottle
22-06-2006, 21:58
Hey, I wouldn't say no to the money... and the sex.... omg, I'm a stereotype!!!
Nuh uh, you can't be one. See, if you are a guy then the ONLY THING you can care about is sex. And, if you're a woman, you CANNOT CARE ABOUT SEX, because sex is only a commodity you sell to men for money and "commitment."

Nobody can care about getting BOTH sex AND money from their romantic partner. You either have to be a whore who is selling your body for money, or you are a slut who will pay anything for a screw.

Yay for traditional gender roles!
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 21:58
Hey, I wouldn't say no to the money... and the sex.... omg, I'm a stereotype!!!
"You make me sad."
*shakes head in disappointment*
Xenophobialand
22-06-2006, 21:59
ALL WOMEN WANT MEAN GUYS! ALL GUYS WANT SEX! ALL WOMEN WANT MONEY!!! ALL MEN WANT SEX!!!!

Hmm, I think I see why generalizations are so popular...it took like half a second to type those out, and I didn't have to actually have human contact to come up wtih them.

Nevertheless, to claim that "All wheels are circular" is still true, even if it's a generalization of wheels. The very fact that something is a generalization is not in and of itself a sign that it is untrue, merely that is possibly incorrect to apply a general inference to this particular case.

And for my part, having been an oft-rejected nice guy, I would say that the reasons are usually as varied as the women. Some women have rejected me because their friends told them too. Some rejected me because I didn't follow some pre-conceived notion of what a nice man does (I don't have much respect for my mother, for instance). Some women don't accept me because they want something that I cannot or will not provide, such as a cheap one-night stand or someone without qualms about cheating. There is no one reason, in my experience, why women reject nice men. I do know that nice men tend overwhelmingly to attract really wierd, psychotic, or desperately needy women.
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 22:01
Nuh uh, you can't be one. See, if you are a guy then the ONLY THING you can care about is sex. And, if you're a woman, you CANNOT CARE ABOUT SEX, because sex is only a commodity you sell to men for money and "commitment."

Nobody can care about getting BOTH sex AND money from their romantic partner. You either have to be a whore who is selling your body for money, or you are a slut who will pay anything for a screw.

Yay for traditional gender roles!

Oh, so sex has to be directly connected to money and money directly to sex? Too bad... I quite enjoy both, but not combined. :p
Isselmere
22-06-2006, 22:01
Hell, I'm last all the time and I'm not good. I'm not even halfway-decent. Obviously, I must have caught the wrong train somewhere.

Honestly, however, my problems all stem from passivity, naïveté, irritability, indecision, incompetence, resignation, and misanthropy. But if I didn't have those, I wouldn't have any personality to speak of. :)
Bottle
22-06-2006, 22:02
Nevertheless, to claim that "All wheels are circular" is still true, even if it's a generalization of wheels. The very fact that something is a generalization is not in and of itself a sign that it is untrue, merely that is possibly incorrect to apply a general inference to this particular case.

The difference: being round is one of the defining qualities of a wheel. NONE of the generalizations people have listed about women/men is actually an integral quality of women/men. They're just bullshit that people make up, none of which has the least bit to do with the maleness or femaleness of the person in question.


And for my part, having been an oft-rejected nice guy, I would say that the reasons are usually as varied as the women. Some women have rejected me because their friends told them too. Some rejected me because I didn't follow some pre-conceived notion of what a nice man does (I don't have much respect for my mother, for instance). Some women don't accept me because they want something that I cannot or will not provide, such as a cheap one-night stand or someone without qualms about cheating. There is no one reason, in my experience, why women reject nice men.

That's pretty much the point.


I do know that nice men tend overwhelmingly to attract really wierd, psychotic, or desperately needy women.
I think healthy people attract healthy relationships, both platonic and otherwise. If you find yourself constantly getting involved with weird, psychotic, or needy women, then I think there's something wrong with how you are going about things. You might want to consider taking a good long look at why YOU are attracted to that sort of woman, and why you continue to end up in relationships with them (both platonic and otherwise).
Bottle
22-06-2006, 22:03
Oh, so sex has to be directly connected to money and money directly to sex? Too bad... I quite enjoy both, but not combined. :p
What about sex on top of a large pile of money?

I want to try that.
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 22:03
"You make me sad."
*shakes head in disappointment*

Why?
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 22:04
What about sex on top of a large pile of money?

I want to try that.

Oooooh ... kind of kinky. Sounds a bit like sex with Scrooge McDuck...
Isselmere
22-06-2006, 22:04
What about sex on top of a large pile of money?

I want to try that.
That might lead to some interesting conversations when you try to buy something...
Neu Leonstein
22-06-2006, 22:05
Sometimes you really need to wallow in the crappiness of rejection, and there's no better way than setting it to music.
*wallows*

Thanks everyone. Advice is always appreciated.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 22:06
Oooooh ... kind of kinky. Sounds a bit like sex with Scrooge McDuck...
Ouch, only soft linen-based currency for me. Sex on coins has some seriously painful potential...what if a quarter were to become wedged some where? And then you tried to get it out with another quarter, but that one got stuck too? And then a few days later you're trying to go through a metal detector at the airport, and they have to run that wand thing over you, and the wand keeps beeping over an area where no wand should beep?

Ooh, but then again, with paper money you've got the risk of paper cuts...

These are the things you have to consider when you're planning to have sex on a pile of money. Maybe that's why not many people end up trying it.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 22:07
Nevertheless, to claim that "All wheels are circular" is still true, even if it's a generalization of wheels. The very fact that something is a generalization is not in and of itself a sign that it is untrue, merely that is possibly incorrect to apply a general inference to this particular case.

And for my part, having been an oft-rejected nice guy, I would say that the reasons are usually as varied as the women. Some women have rejected me because their friends told them too. Some rejected me because I didn't follow some pre-conceived notion of what a nice man does (I don't have much respect for my mother, for instance). Some women don't accept me because they want something that I cannot or will not provide, such as a cheap one-night stand or someone without qualms about cheating. There is no one reason, in my experience, why women reject nice men. I do know that nice men tend overwhelmingly to attract really wierd, psychotic, or desperately needy women.
From my experience, we are attracted to those women most because we ourselves feel desperate and tend to be needy, at least at that moment, so we seek someone else to create a little rampart against the hopelessness we feel. Otherwise, we nice men tend to find those odd women attractive psychologically because they generally aren't like all those other women who just seem to blend into the rest. We ignore them as individual people because nothing seems to grab our attention. They just seem too bland. And a number of us know bland. We want someone to change that, to make us feel alive for once. Well, that's my take on it. Don't read too much into anything that sounds generally applicable. I tried to adequately express what I have observed from first- and second-hand experiences.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 22:11
Why?
The stereotypes comment. Bad sarcasm. That or terrible seriousness. Maybe I'm just not in the mood to appreciate the humor of that right now. Sorry. I'll go reply to other posts.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 22:13
*wallows*

Thanks everyone. Advice is always appreciated.
What about the spam?:p

What? You're telling me there hasn't been much spam yet!?:eek:
Cabra West
22-06-2006, 22:15
The stereotypes comment. Bad sarcasm. That or terrible seriousness. Maybe I'm just not in the mood to appreciate the humor of that right now. Sorry. I'll go reply to other posts.

Er... it was neither. I was just being silly, really.
Fascist Dominion
22-06-2006, 22:18
Er... it was neither. I was just being silly, really.
Qualifies as sarcasm, then. Sorry. I shouldn't reply to those sorts of things when I'm like this. By all means, carry on with the silliness then.
Xenophobialand
22-06-2006, 22:22
The difference: being round is one of the defining qualities of a wheel. NONE of the generalizations people have listed about women/men is actually an integral quality of women/men. They're just bullshit that people make up, none of which has the least bit to do with the maleness or femaleness of the person in question.

Are you sure? I'm as familiar as anyone else with the traditional feminist arguments, but I'm also familiar with the genetic arguments for male and female stereotypes, and I'm familiar with how women around me act, which seems, however anecdotally, to be in many ways consistent with the stereotypes.

Moreover, you're ignoring my point: the fact that, say, the view that Asian-Americans are smart is certainly stereotypical and certainly not true of every Asian-American, but it also reflects the fact that Asian-Americans, for whatever reason, make up disproportionately large parts of America's upper echelons in public and college education. They are more likely than average to score well on standardized exams, more likely than average to graduate high school, more likely than average to graduate with honors, more likely than average to graduate from college, more likely than average to go on to grad school, etc. So for many Asian-Americans, the view that they are smart (or at least smarter than the minorities they tend to live with and around) is stereotypical and uses a fairly crude and inaccurate measure of intelligence, but also reflective of general truths about Asian-Americans. When I see psych studies that indicate, for instance, that women can see the same man well-dressed and dressed like a poor man and rate him as having more and higher qualities found in a mate than in the latter photograph, I don't see why it isn't at least possible that the same thing is going on.


I think healthy people attract healthy relationships, both platonic and otherwise. If you find yourself constantly getting involved with weird, psychotic, or needy women, then I think there's something wrong with how you are going about things. You might want to consider taking a good long look at why YOU are attracted to that sort of woman, and why you continue to end up in relationships with them (both platonic and otherwise).

You of all people should know the dangers of blaming the victim, but for what its worth, I have taken "a good long look at why [I am] attracted to that sort of woman". Put simply, I tend to be interested in people who are interested in me, and the people who most manifest interest in me are genuinely disturbed women craving a sense of normalcy and intimacy, and women who crave security and are willing to accept a fairly boring and ordinary, if stand-up, guy.
Bottle
22-06-2006, 22:29
Are you sure? I'm as familiar as anyone else with the traditional feminist arguments, but I'm also familiar with the genetic arguments for male and female stereotypes, and I'm familiar with how women around me act, which seems, however anecdotally, to be in many ways consistent with the stereotypes.

None of which has anything to do with my point. As long as there is a single woman who doesn't fit the stereotype, your comparison (roundness + wheels) is irrelevant, since obviously those stereotypes are NOT integral qualities of women.


Moreover, you're ignoring my point: the fact that, say, the view that Asian-Americans are smart is certainly stereotypical and certainly not true of every Asian-American, but it also reflects the fact that Asian-Americans, for whatever reason, make up disproportionately large parts of America's upper echelons in public and college education. They are more likely than average to score well on standardized exams, more likely than average to graduate high school, more likely than average to graduate with honors, more likely than average to graduate from college, more likely than average to go on to grad school, etc. So for many Asian-Americans, the view that they are smart (or at least smarter than the minorities they tend to live with and around) is stereotypical and uses a fairly crude and inaccurate measure of intelligence, but also reflective of general truths about Asian-Americans.

So?

Sure, there may be general statements you can make about any demographic. I don't know about you, but I don't try to date demographics. I try to date individual human beings, none of whom have EVER conformed perfectly to any of the many generalizations that might be made about the demographics to which they belong. It is a total waste of your time to try to approach dating from a demographics point of view, since individuals will always surprise you in one way or another. Just get to know the individuals in your life; it will save you time, energy, and a lot of embarassment.


When I see psych studies that indicate, for instance, that women can see the same man well-dressed and dressed like a poor man and rate him as having more and higher qualities found in a mate than in the latter photograph, I don't see why it isn't at least possible that the same thing is going on.

None of which will be any help to you if you're trying to date a particular woman, since she could very well be one of the hundreds of millions of women who don't fit that stereotype. Why waste your time memorizing bullshit stereotypes and then seeking out the women who live up to them?

Who CARES what some studies says about "the average woman"? If you're just trying to date something female then what the hell is the point? Why not just get to know a women as if she were an actual person, and THEN decide if you want to date her? Then you won't have to rely on studies to guess at what qualities she might or might not be interested it...you'll be able to actually ASK her!


You of all people should know the dangers of blaming the victim, but for what its worth, I have taken "a good long look at why [I am] attracted to that sort of woman". Put simply, I tend to be interested in people who are interested in me, and the people who most manifest interest in me are genuinely disturbed women craving a sense of normalcy and intimacy, and women who crave security and are willing to accept a fairly boring and ordinary, if stand-up, guy.
If you attract fucked up women, then I think that says as much about you as it does about those women. And if you choose to DATE that kind of women, I think it says even more about you than it does about those women.

But hey, if you're happy with it, then more power to ya.

If you're a victim of anything, it's of your own bad taste. Don't like fucked up women? DON'T DATE THEM. It's just that simple. I give the same advice to women who bitch about how they only attract losers.
New Domici
22-06-2006, 22:53
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:

It's a matter of how some people like to see flaws as the virtues that they don't most rule out.

Simon Cowel is a jackass, but his fans praise it as "honest."
Dubya in an idiot and his fans praise him as "folksy."
He's cruel and his fans praise him as "tough."

Bad boys are inconsiderate and considered confident, resentful and considered independent, angry and considered passionate etc.

A lot of adolescent girls are going after the guys that unconciously remind them the least of their fathers. Eventually, most of them grow up and (for good or for ill) look for guys that remind them most of their fathers. Most of the time this means going for a rebel in highschool and someone stable as an adult. Sometimes it means looking for a college guy in highschool and an abusive husband as an adult, but that's the thing about people. We're nuts.
Fascist Dominion
23-06-2006, 04:59
It's a matter of how some people like to see flaws as the virtues that they don't most rule out.

Simon Cowel is a jackass, but his fans praise it as "honest."
Dubya in an idiot and his fans praise him as "folksy."
He's cruel and his fans praise him as "tough."

Bad boys are inconsiderate and considered confident, resentful and considered independent, angry and considered passionate etc.

A lot of adolescent girls are going after the guys that unconciously remind them the least of their fathers. Eventually, most of them grow up and (for good or for ill) look for guys that remind them most of their fathers. Most of the time this means going for a rebel in highschool and someone stable as an adult. Sometimes it means looking for a college guy in highschool and an abusive husband as an adult, but that's the thing about people. We're nuts.
That part seems to be about asserting themselves as individuals to me. Then later they have that "nesting" trait that tells them to look for a father for their children, so they look for the fatherly traits they know: those of their own fathers.
The Five Castes
23-06-2006, 08:50
For some reason, this place seems to excel at getting me angry almost beyond my ability to control.

Bottle,
While after having read the entire thread I can see what you're saying, for most of the thread I was under the distinct impression that you were just pushing a female-supremicist additude and were trying to support the manupulative behaviors discussed in this thread by placing the blame on the clueless victums of their manipulations.

For a majority of this thread, I've seen you talk about how anyone claiming to be a "nice guy" has no right to complain that he isn't getting laid, since a real nice guy wouldn't care about that. This is rediculus to the point of offensive. No one who is ever relegated to the "nice male friend" category is trying to manipulate women into sex. If they were really that unscrupulous, they'd be out with the black book of pickup lines and rented sports cars, since their only concern would be "what works".

You say that being a decent, respectful person and meeting some "minimum standard" doesn't entitle one to more sex. Fair enough, but why is it that people who don't meet these "minimum standards" get laid so often?

"What do you want? A cookie?" It's like saying good behavior should not only not be rewarded, but should be punished to "prove" that it's sincere. It's a disgusting aditude.

You don't think people who meet this "minimum standard" should have a better chance than those who don't? This isn't about entitlement for those who do meet this standard. It's about the fact that those who don't meet it seem to enjoy a privlidged status.

I don't like it when people try to "let me down easy" because dishonesty hurts. Getting strung along hurts. Sure, so does rejection in general, but at least a punch in the face heals. Being strung along in a relationship where the other person knows you have no chance will cause damage far deeper, will shatter your confidence, and ultimately do a hell of a lot of damage. Intentional or not, this behavior must stop.

If you're worried about hurting someone's feelings, get over it. That's inevedable anyway. Be brutally honest, and eventually, once the hurt heals, they'll be better off.

As to your advice to "get to know a person before you decide to date them", you completely ignore the reality that this is exactly the steriotypical strategy of a "nice guy". It's what a nice guy does. He develops a friendship with a woman and eventually, once he realises that they could be compatible, attempts to make the transition into a romantic relationship. But because he's in the "friend" category he can't become someone romantic. Sure, she loves him too, but like a brother. This has to be the worst advice I've ever seen. It tells people to keep doing things that haven't worked in the past.

What do we call it when someone repeats the same experiment again and again, expecting different results?

Ultimately, I think you're saying something along the lines of "quit wasting your time with women who are lying manipulative bitches", but the problem is that because they are "lying manipulative bitches" you can't easily identify them. The fact that there are so many of them out there suggests that it has something to do with the way women are socialised, and while I'm not even suggesting that this is a norm, it is the norm for what many men encounter.

This has to do with the nature of "the dating scene". The entire point of "dating" in this culture is to lie your way into the other person's pants. It's a woman's goal as much as a man, but because women aren't beleived to enjoy sex, she gets to enjoy a position of power in the relationship. If she is seen as doing something she doesn't want to do by engaging sexually (something she really wants to do anyway) then she can make the man "reciprocate" by doing something he doesn't want to do.

Our entire culture is based on us lying and manipulating one another, and that culture naturally favors the bastards and bitches out there. That's why nice guys finish last, it isn't their game.

I do have a platonic friendship with a woman, and I did once try to "jump ladders" to use the terminology brought up elsewhere. She is someone who had grown very important to me, and I wanted to explore that possibility. I tried to make it clear that I valued the reality of our friendship above the potential of a romantic relationship. Needless to say, I got turned down. I don't think it was because she was deliberately stringing me along the whole time. I don't think she was even unconsiously manipulative. Our friendship was made for all the right reasons as far as I can tell. After the rejection, we made it through, and are still close. Closer even, but I have to accept that it won't end up as a romantic relationship.

The worst part was when she was so afraid of hurting my feelings and ending our friendship that she strung me along with "I don't know"s. Like an idiot, I let her get away with it. She didn't believe that our frienship could survive the rejection, so in order to salvage it, she resorted to the very decitful underhanded tactics in the "intelectual whore" school of thought. I have no reason to believe she was using such tactics beforehand, and in spite of how wrong I believe she was to use them, I feel she probably did fool herself into thinking it would be less painful for me.

I forced her hand, made her say those hurtful words, and after a good long cry, I got over it, and we saved our friendship.

Bottle, you seem to be saying, not to bother with manipulative women, but they can't be identified by appearence. You say only to bother with women who are interested in us, but how can we tell that? I can't see much use in your advice, even if it is sound on the surface.

Now, on to the actual woman bashing:
(Translation: Me being pissed off at some social inequalities and gender roles that males were left stuck in while the feminist movement helped women "cast off their chains".)

WHY THE HELL DOES THE GUY ALWAYS HAVE TO MAKE THE FIRST MOVE?

I mean seriusly, why is it that we are, at the same time, assumed to be clueless morons about social matters, and also expected to be the sole driving force in the relationship. Why is it the guys fault if he and his potential soulmate are both too shy to make a move? Shouldn't the blame for the missed oportunity fall to both of them?

YES, I'M WHINING! WAAAH, IT ISN'T FAIR!
Bottle
23-06-2006, 14:26
For some reason, this place seems to excel at getting me angry almost beyond my ability to control.

Bottle,
While after having read the entire thread I can see what you're saying, for most of the thread I was under the distinct impression that you were just pushing a female-supremicist additude and were trying to support the manupulative behaviors discussed in this thread by placing the blame on the clueless victums of their manipulations.

Forgive me, but that is just about one of the funniest things I've ever read.

No, I don't believe in "female supremacism." I believe in expecting grown men and women to act like adults.

If a man doesn't like manipulative, passive-aggressive, self-centered women, then HE SHOULDN'T DATE THEM. If a guy chooses to associate with stupid women, he gives up the right to bitch when those women act stupid.

I've given women the same damn spiel on other threads, but this thread is about guys so I give the guys my attention.


For a majority of this thread, I've seen you talk about how anyone claiming to be a "nice guy" has no right to complain that he isn't getting laid, since a real nice guy wouldn't care about that.

The fuck I have. Read more carefully.

I have no problem with somebody wanting to get laid. I want to get laid. I wouldn't consider dating a person who doesn't want to get laid.

What I have a problem with is "nice guys" who seem to think that they DESERVE to get laid just because they treat women with respect. I have a problem with "nice guys" who feel entitled to get a girlfriend just because they're kind and thoughtful. I have a problem with ANYBODY who thinks they deserve a cookie (or a pussy) for acting in the manner that should be expected of EVERYBODY.

There are lots of nice people in the world who don't get laid, or don't get married, or never find The One. It doesn't mean they aren't nice, and it also doesn't mean that all women (or all men) are evil, it just means that finding a suitable mate is a complicated process that doesn't always end happily for everybody.


This is rediculus to the point of offensive. No one who is ever relegated to the "nice male friend" category is trying to manipulate women into sex.

No one? Ever? You need to get out more.

There are plenty of guys who use the strategy of being "one of the girls" in order to try to manipulate women into sex. Lately, it seems like there are more of this sort than there are of the pub-crawling sleazeballs.

Of course, there are also plenty of guys who are genuine friends, and who hang out with girls because those girls are fun and interesting people.


If they were really that unscrupulous, they'd be out with the black book of pickup lines and rented sports cars, since their only concern would be "what works".

I think it's plenty unscrupulous to sit around pretending to be a girl's friend when all you really want is to get her to go out with you. I think it's far more slimey to listen to a girl's problems and then turn around and insult her for sharing her feelings with you. I think it's downright pathetic to insist that all girls like jerks just because they won't go out with YOU, especially when you're acting like a prize jerk the whole time.


You say that being a decent, respectful person and meeting some "minimum standard" doesn't entitle one to more sex. Fair enough, but why is it that people who don't meet these "minimum standards" get laid so often?

People who steal things will often have a pile of money. Murderers often profit from killing somebody. Hell, a rapist is getting laid, isn't he?

If you want to be the kind of person who does rotten things to get your way, go right ahead. You won't be the first. Just don't expect anybody to buy your bullshit if you try to pretend you're a "nice guy" while you're stabbing them in the back.

If you are willing to sell out your principles just so you can get women to go out with you, then you've pretty much said all that needs to be said about how "nice" you really are.


"What do you want? A cookie?" It's like saying good behavior should not only not be rewarded, but should be punished to "prove" that it's sincere. It's a disgusting aditude.

"Punished"? So, it's "punishment" whenever a guy doesn't get sex on demand?

Quit being such a Communist about pussy. You are not entitled to have pussy distributed to you according to your need. Being nice does not entitle you to have sex. If a girl decides she doesn't want to have sex with you, this does not qualify as "punishment" because you aren't entitled to her body in the first place. She's not taking away something that is owed to you, she's simply choosing not to share HER body and HER life with you.

There are plenty of reasons why somebody might simply not want to have sex with you, even if you are a very nice, intelligent, fun, attractive person. There are a ton of nice, intelligent, fun, attractive people in my life, and I sure as hell don't go around fucking all of them. Am I "punishing" all of them by deciding that I'd rather not fuck every fun and interesting person I meet?


You don't think people who meet this "minimum standard" should have a better chance than those who don't?

Chance for what?

It's true, men who are sneaky and dishonest and cruel will have a much better chance of getting together with the kind of woman who is attracted to sneak, dishonest, cruel men. Is that the kind of woman you want? Or are you just willing to settle for any woman at all, so you'll do anything that increases your chances of getting something warm and female?

Men who are smart, honorable, respectful, and kind are much more likely to get with smart, honorable, respectful, kind women. If that's the kind of woman you want, then being a jackass isn't gonna increase your chances.


This isn't about entitlement for those who do meet this standard. It's about the fact that those who don't meet it seem to enjoy a privlidged status.

Again, you need to get out more. Sure, you can get cheap and easy fucks by being a cheap and easy guy. If that's all you want, go for it. But if you want a meaningful, loving, healthy relationship, you might need to come to terms with the fact that you won't get it by acting like a total prick.

Do you think guys who throw around slimey pickup lines are having healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships? From personal experience, let me tell you: they're not. They may be having some great sex, sure, and they may be perfectly happy with that, but you ain't gonna have a deep relationship with a girl who gets turned on by "Hey baby, what's your sign?"


I don't like it when people try to "let me down easy" because dishonesty hurts.

Courtesy isn't necessarily dishonest. I agree that it's best to let people down cleanly, but you need to realize that plenty of girls are still working out how to do this without being needlessly hurtful. They're not being dishonest, they're trying to spare your feelings. Cut them some freaking slack.


Getting strung along hurts. Sure, so does rejection in general, but at least a punch in the face heals. Being strung along in a relationship where the other person knows you have no chance will cause damage far deeper, will shatter your confidence, and ultimately do a hell of a lot of damage. Intentional or not, this behavior must stop.

"This behavior must stop," huh. Sorry, but Womankind isn't going to tailor its collective behavior for your convenience. There are plenty of guys who give women the exact opposite feedback, and tell them that they're bitches if they make a clean break. If you want to see an overhaul in break-up procedures, or if you want to see a totally different dynamic in how people "let each other down," then you're going to have to do more than just stamp your little foot and command women to change. Their behavior does not exist in a vaccuum; it is shaped by the responses they get from all the men and women in their lives.


If you're worried about hurting someone's feelings, get over it. That's inevedable anyway. Be brutally honest, and eventually, once the hurt heals, they'll be better off.

Wow, and look how "nice" you are! No worrying about hurting somebody's feelings! Be "brutally honest," as opposed to just honest!

So nice. So very, very nice.


As to your advice to "get to know a person before you decide to date them", you completely ignore the reality that this is exactly the steriotypical strategy of a "nice guy".

Perhaps you are confusing genuinely nice guys with "Nice Guys(tm)." You're right, a genuinely nice guy will fall for a woman because he has gotten to know her and has fallen for the person that she really is. However, "Nice Guys(tm)," as seen throughout this thread, don't have a single female friend that they're not trying to hook up with. They're after GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS!!! They want to know how to make "women" like them, which pretty much proves that they aren't even slightly interested in knowing anything about INDIVIDUAL women. They just want A WOMAN. That's their problem, and that's what I've been chewing them out for. They're not actually nice guys...they're "Nice Guys." The scare quotes are there for a reason.


It's what a nice guy does. He develops a friendship with a woman and eventually, once he realises that they could be compatible, attempts to make the transition into a romantic relationship. But because he's in the "friend" category he can't become someone romantic.

Total and complete 100% bullshit. If the girl actually reciprocates your feelings, being in the "friend" category won't stop her from wanting to date you.

What's really going on is that she doesn't see you as more than a "friend" because she isn't attracted to you that way. Don't bullshit about how you made this horrible mistake of being friends with her, and that's why your chances got ruined...just come to terms with the fact that this particular girl doesn't want to be your girlfriend, even though she likes you very much as a friend.


Sure, she loves him too, but like a brother. This has to be the worst advice I've ever seen. It tells people to keep doing things that haven't worked in the past.

Are you a girl? Didn't think so. Let me set you straight.

If a girl wants you, if she's attracted to you, if she is interested in having a romantic relationship with you, then she's gonna go for it just as much as you would go for it. The problem that you, and many other guys, seem to have is that you don't want to admit to yourself that SHE JUST DOESN'T LIKE YOU THAT WAY.

You like to tell yourself, "If only I hadn't made friends with her! Then I might have a chance!" But the reality is that your chances with her are as good as they possibly could be, because you DID take the time to become her friend, and she simply isn't interested in you. It sucks, but sometimes that happens. She's just not feeling it.


What do we call it when someone repeats the same experiment again and again, expecting different results?

Guys have been trying this "Nice Guy(tm)" bullshit for as long as I can remember, and smart women have been laughing about it in the lockerrooms and bathrooms for all that time. It's transparent, it's old, and it's lamer than a one-legged duck. Change your strategy.


Ultimately, I think you're saying something along the lines of "quit wasting your time with women who are lying manipulative bitches", but the problem is that because they are "lying manipulative bitches" you can't easily identify them.

Sure you can. Same as you can tell if one of your mates is fucking you over. It may take a little while to catch on (because some people are pretty good at being bad), but once you realize it you have to stick up for yourself. Stop trying to date women who treat you like crap.


The fact that there are so many of them out there suggests that it has something to do with the way women are socialised, and while I'm not even suggesting that this is a norm, it is the norm for what many men encounter.

Wrong. The overwhelming majority of people, male and female, are not manipulative or evil or nasty or anything of the sort. If YOU happen to surround yourself with manipulative, evil, nasty people (male or female) then that is a problem with YOU. You need to take a good long look at why you are attracted to manipulative women. You need to examine why you choose to be friends with manipulative people. You need to stop blaming other people for mistakes that you are making.


This has to do with the nature of "the dating scene". The entire point of "dating" in this culture is to lie your way into the other person's pants.

If that's your goal, then why are you pretending to be "nice"? And, if it's not your goal, then why the fuck do you care what other people do? Do you want to have sex with the kind of people who lie and cheat to get sex?


It's a woman's goal as much as a man, but because women aren't beleived to enjoy sex, she gets to enjoy a position of power in the relationship. If she is seen as doing something she doesn't want to do by engaging sexually (something she really wants to do anyway) then she can make the man "reciprocate" by doing something he doesn't want to do.

If you want to date the kind of woman who acts this way, then that is your business, but don't come crying to me about how crappy women treat you. You could just as easily choose to have some standards.


Our entire culture is based on us lying and manipulating one another, and that culture naturally favors the bastards and bitches out there. That's why nice guys finish last, it isn't their game.

Wah wah wah. Boo hoo hoo.

If you want to sleep with people who are mean, or lying, or are stupid enough to fall for mean lying jackasses, then you go right ahead. Just quit crying when you end up being in relationships with mean, lying, stupid people. You chose to be with them.


I do have a platonic friendship with a woman, and I did once try to "jump ladders" to use the terminology brought up elsewhere. She is someone who had grown very important to me, and I wanted to explore that possibility. I tried to make it clear that I valued the reality of our friendship above the potential of a romantic relationship. Needless to say, I got turned down. I don't think it was because she was deliberately stringing me along the whole time. I don't think she was even unconsiously manipulative. Our friendship was made for all the right reasons as far as I can tell. After the rejection, we made it through, and are still close. Closer even, but I have to accept that it won't end up as a romantic relationship.

GOOD. That's the whole point. You understand that sometimes there just isn't the chemistry. She's not a bitch, she's not manipulating you, she just doesn't dig you that way.

Well, guess what? That's how it is most of the time.


The worst part was when she was so afraid of hurting my feelings and ending our friendship that she strung me along with "I don't know"s. Like an idiot, I let her get away with it. She didn't believe that our frienship could survive the rejection, so in order to salvage it, she resorted to the very decitful underhanded tactics in the "intelectual whore" school of thought. I have no reason to believe she was using such tactics beforehand, and in spite of how wrong I believe she was to use them, I feel she probably did fool herself into thinking it would be less painful for me.

The fact is, plenty of guys prefer when girls use that approach. You don't; that's fine. But it's not some kind of devious tactic on the part of the girl, it's an honest effort to spare the feelings of somebody she cares about. She wasn't "fooling herself," she was making the best guess she could based on the information she had.


I forced her hand, made her say those hurtful words, and after a good long cry, I got over it, and we saved our friendship.

Sounds like you could have avoided the situation in the first place, if you had "forced her hand" at the very beginning. So both of you fucked up in your own ways. Everybody makes mistakes.


Bottle, you seem to be saying, not to bother with manipulative women, but they can't be identified by appearence.

If you're trying to identify women by their appearance, that's your first big mistake. I know this may sound shitty to you, but you're gonna have to actually talk to women sometimes.


You say only to bother with women who are interested in us, but how can we tell that?

Um. Talk to them. Get to know them. Hell, try ASKING THEM. It's not hard. I've been dating women for years, and I'm not that bright, so if I can do it I'm sure you can too.


I can't see much use in your advice, even if it is sound on the surface.

If you can't see the use in sound advice, there's not much I can do for you.


Now, on to the actual woman bashing:
(Translation: Me being pissed off at some social inequalities and gender roles that males were left stuck in while the feminist movement helped women "cast off their chains".)

WHY THE HELL DOES THE GUY ALWAYS HAVE TO MAKE THE FIRST MOVE?

He doesn't. Plenty of women will make the first move.

Also, realize that women who make the first move may not always make a move ON YOU. If you want to be the one who gets moves put on you, then you're going to have to wait for them to come to you. You also may find that the girls you are interested in will not make moves on you; this is often because they are not interested in you.


I mean seriusly, why is it that we are, at the same time, assumed to be clueless morons about social matters, and also expected to be the sole driving force in the relationship. Why is it the guys fault if he and his potential soulmate are both too shy to make a move? Shouldn't the blame for the missed oportunity fall to both of them?

YES, I'M WHINING! WAAAH, IT ISN'T FAIR!
I don't know why people persist in pretending like these standards still exist. Everywhere I've gone, I've heard people bitch about how "men are supposed to make the first move," yet IN THESE SAME PLACES you will see plenty of women making the first move. It's like people just don't see what's right in front of their faces.

Look, maybe women don't make moves ON YOU. Or maybe they are making moves on you, and you just aren't picking up on it because you're too busy complaining about how women never make the first move. Or maybe you don't like the girls who are putting moves on you, because they aren't the girls you want to date.
Deep Kimchi
23-06-2006, 14:29
Yeah, angst music is KEY. Sometimes you really need to wallow in the crappiness of rejection, and there's no better way than setting it to music.

Also, I find that singing along to depressing music will help keep me from composing horrible poems of my own. And, let's face it, the one thing this world does not need is more rejected lovers expressing their woe through verse.

A long, long time ago, I met a girl while I was in college. After hearing my tale of woe, and assorted sad songs on the stereo, she told me to shut up and fuck her.

Better advice was never given.
Bottle
23-06-2006, 14:32
A long, long time ago, I met a girl while I was in college. After hearing my tale of woe, and assorted sad songs on the stereo, she told me to shut up and fuck her.
Impossible! I have it on good authority, from the Nice Guys(tm), that women NEVER make the first move.
Iztatepopotla
23-06-2006, 14:35
Because:

-they have no mysterious allure
-they don't constitute a challenge
- good guys, sorry, but you're generally boring.
I'm mean and boring. Yay me!
Deep Kimchi
23-06-2006, 14:46
Impossible! I have it on good authority, from the Nice Guys(tm), that women NEVER make the first move.
Contrary to the opinions of "Nice Guys", women are remarkably similar to men in almost every respect. A few fundamental physical differences in anatomy, but otherwise Homo Sapiens in all its glory.
Bottle
23-06-2006, 14:48
Contrary to the opinions of "Nice Guys", women are remarkably similar to men in almost every respect. A few fundamental physical differences in anatomy, but otherwise Homo Sapiens in all its glory.
If only there were more people who could wrap their minds around this simple reality. So much needless whining could be avoided.
Kanabia
23-06-2006, 14:59
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?


Bah, i'm sick of saying this, but this is my perspective. Disagree if you want, I don't care.

Because self professed "nice" guys are usually not very nice and only want teh vagina; and believe that by acting nice and all proper and stuff they are entitled to it for some reason. Wrong!

A good portion of the remainder, genuine nice guys that generally don't go around calling themselves nice usually lack confidence and fail to make themselves an attractive target for a relationship. That's a failure on their part.

And perhaps some are just ugly or are for all intents and purposes useless rejects. Maybe not all women actually care so much about that, but whatever.

The few that are left over are usually in stable relationships.

So there. Hope that helps.
Bottle
23-06-2006, 15:10
Bah, i'm sick of saying this, but this is my perspective. Disagree if you want, I don't care.

Because self professed "nice" guys are usually not very nice and only want teh vagina; and believe that by acting nice and all proper and stuff they are entitled to it for some reason. Wrong!

A good portion of the remainder, genuine nice guys that generally don't go around calling themselves nice usually lack confidence and fail to make themselves an attractive target for a relationship. That's a failure on their part.

And perhaps some are just ugly or are for all intents and purposes useless rejects. Maybe not all women actually care so much about that, but whatever.

The few that are left over are usually in stable relationships.

So there. Hope that helps.

I realized that there's something about my on-going discussions that may be confusing people a bit:

When I'm talking about "nice guys" with the scare quotes around it, I'm talking specifically about those guys who are not actually nice, but who refer to themselves as "nice" while they engage in profoundly non-nice activities.

The broad question of "Why do good guys finish last?" has a much broader answer, of course, as you pointed out. And I think the one thing that tends to be forgotten a whole lot is that guys are no more a homogenous group than girls are.

Some good guys have particular qualities or traits to their personality that turn a lot of women off. This does not mean they should give up all hope of finding a gal. What it means is that you can't assume that the reason they are single is because they are "too nice," or because "women like jerks." There may be some other reason, unrelated to the niceness of the guy, which leads women to not want to date him.

Some guys are very nice and honorable, but are physically unattractive. Again, this doesn't mean they have no hope of ever finding somebody, but it does mean that they are probably going to get less attention than attractive guys. We accept that this is how it works for women, so we shouldn't forget that it is also the case for men.

If a really hot guy and a really ugly guy walk into a party, girls are probably going to be more interested in getting to know that hot guy, even if they end up finding out he's a jerk. They didn't know he was a jerk when he walked in, they just knew he was HOT. Maybe the ugly guy is a nicer guy, but they didn't know that either. Their choice to go after the jerk didn't really have anything to do with the fact that he's a jerk, it was simply about them choosing the hot guy.

Something else to remember is that people who don't care about anybody else will often have a very easy time acting confident. This may initially seem very attractive to other people. However, when you get to know this type of person, they quickly start to get on your nerves as you realize that they only care about themselves. Many girls may be initially attracted to guys who are out-going and confident, and assholish guys may act out-going more often than a lot of nice guys, but that doesn't mean that the solution is for nice guys to become assholes. The solution is also not to conclude that women are attracted to assholes...instead, look at what TRAIT the women are attracted to. It's not the assholishness, it's particular ways of interacting. You don't have to be an asshole to master many of these. (And you also can find plenty of women who are attracted to totally different traits.)
Kanabia
23-06-2006, 15:16
Exactly, Bottle.
Cluichstan
23-06-2006, 15:21
ALL WOMEN WANT MEAN GUYS! ALL GUYS WANT SEX! ALL WOMEN WANT MONEY!!! ALL MEN WANT SEX!!!!

Hmm, I think I see why generalizations are so popular...it took like half a second to type those out, and I didn't have to actually have human contact to come up wtih them.

You made my point exactly, my friend. I can't be bothered with posts that clearly involved no thought. Even spam posts -- when done properly -- involve more thought than the majority of the posts in this thread.
Aelosia
23-06-2006, 18:56
bottle rocks
Cluichstan
23-06-2006, 18:58
bottle rocks

Indeed. Bottle pretty much conquered this thread. :D
Fascist Dominion
23-06-2006, 19:44
Indeed. Bottle pretty much conquered this thread. :D
As a minor power allied with Bottle, I must concur. "All your base are belong to [Bottle].":D
Chellis
23-06-2006, 21:03
I didn't read the whole thread; sorry, 200+ posts is hard to get through, when you just want to post. So If I go over anything already well gone over, I apologize; I just want to give my personal story, as a "nice guy" who actually decided to make the changes nessecary to get with women.

But before that, I suggest reading www.intellectualwhores.com , especially the ladder theory. It was the catalyst of helping change me.

Some history: Before 2006, I had never been kissed, much less anything further. I had read intellectual whores, but being the nice guy I was, I never made myself try to change myself. I resigned myself, basically, to Intellectual whoredom. I was 17 by the start of 2006.

But as christmas break came, and I could clearly see myself becoming an IW to a girl I really wanted to get with, I forced myself to change. A sort of new years resolution, though I never called it that at the time, I made myself pool what I had learned from ladder theory, from my very successful brother(With girls, anyways), from FS, etc.

The main thing was, indeed, confidence. I never liked making moves before. I made the horrible teenager mistakes of notes, or stumbling words trying to say "I like you". Gah.

Well, the girl left before I really had a chance to show her my new side, moved back to kansas where she was from originally, so I let her go. I had also picked up on the fact that going after a large number of women at once was a really good idea.

Kim was first. A friend of a friend, we were both in choir at the school, although different levels. She was wierd, though. I thought I saw clear signs of interest; she was very... touchy, I guess, in a literal sense. She was hugging me, etc a lot, mostly at this choir event.

Well, she ended up being a failure. I made a move on her, and thought it was going well. We were kissing and everything, but the next day, she was really distant, and I just called her straight up on it. Told me she wasn't over her ex yet(she started dating another guy shortly later, meh).

I was sad, as she was the first girl I got anywhere with, but I got over it. Went to a party, hit on a girl, and got to third base. Alcohol is fun.

She wasn't very attractive though, and after being.... moted by my friends, basically, I decided I could do better, and it wasn't worth the ridicule. She was really nice, but unattractive. Sorry, I'm not a really nice guy. I'm a guy, like any other, who wants the hottest girl he can get to put out. Any guy who says this isn't true, is in denial. Obviously, other factors are important, but not as much as this one. Though there are dealbreakers, personality wise, I will admit, no matter how hot a girl is.

Anyways, a little while went by. I bided my time, went after a few girls. Didn't really make any moves, but meh. I didn't really have an oppertunity to get with anybody.

Then there's nicole, my most recent ex. She was the middle friend between me and kim. She was also very touchy, and got closer and closer to me as time went by. I asked her to homecoming, after deciding my date was too much of a flaky bitch, and she gladly obliged.

We accidentally kissed the first time we did, which was that night, but that didn't matter to me. She didn't seem to mind, and so I did it a few more times, and then a good amount more later.

We were dating for a while, maybe 3 weeks I guess. But I could tell she wasn't really interested in me. I have a way with that kind of feeling. She was stringing me along by the last week, and I knew it. I wanted to try and let it go at least until I graduated, but no, I basically pushed her into breaking up with me, the last day of school, before I graduated.

I just realized how much pointless history that was. Meh. I just started ranting, sorry. I really meant to get to this next point, mostly.

The girl I was talking about in the very beginning, the one who moved to kansas, is back, at least for now. She's going up to washington for about a month, after she was here for a week or so, and then going to try and come back down her for good, if she can find a place to stay.

I made it a point to hang out with her. She was mostly inviting me to go places, movies and waterpark. It was cool. But I was stronger, better, more confident. I didn't do much of anything the first time we hung out, at the movies. I was more analysing things.

But waterworld, the nearby waterpark, is where things happened. After being playful with her for a bit, I finally made a move, kissing her under the artificial waterfall(yeah, very trite, but it still made a good move). I wasn't sure how she felt at first about it, but after a few seconds or more, I realized she was interested.

And now we are dating. Lots of kissing,etc at waterworld, and at the movies the next day. It sucks that I wont get to see her for a while, but we aren't official, so :P


Anyways, my personal story. Guys, if you aren't getting anywhere with girls, and you want to, just do a few simple things. Don't be devoted to one, give her hints of interest, but then go looking at other girls. One of these girls will realize that you are interested, and will be interested in you, but afraid you might go after another girl.

Be confident and outgoing. So many people say don't be arrogant, but what alot of you nice guys would probably do is under-do the confidence, so try being arrogant. Worst that happens is it doesn't work, and you try being a bit less arrogant. You will get more girls being arrogant than having little to no self-esteem, however.

Being arrogant works great with being funny, though. Be arrogant, but make it a joke, talking about how you are the hottest guy in the world, etc. They know its not true, and you don't really mean it, but it still puts those subconscious thoughts in their mind that its at least partly true. Make them think about you, and not what you do, because nice guys, you're probably really dull and boring, at least with girls. God knows I am, but I find ways to hide it.

I probably made a few people mad with this thread. Meh. The truth, personal truth at least, can be uneasy.
Harlesburg
23-06-2006, 21:06
Honestly, this is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, mainly because I consider myself a "good guy". But why is it that women would rather go out with these guys that are total dickish arse-holes, instead of someone that will treat them right, and such?

Anyone have an answer?:confused:
Perhaps it is the same reason why nice guys finish last.
Fascist Dominion
23-06-2006, 21:08
Perhaps it is the same reason why nice guys finish last.
*blinkblink*
*shoves you off a cliff*
True Being
23-06-2006, 21:15
Contrary to the opinions of "Nice Guys", women are remarkably similar to men in almost every respect. A few fundamental physical differences in anatomy, but otherwise Homo Sapiens in all its glory.


Oh HELL no, not just no, but HELL no. Not trying to be mean, Im jsut expressive sometimes ;). But the psychological makeup of man and woman are entirely different, not lesser or greater, but two different but complementary sets, at least, provided that both parts are mentally healthy, not so commona anymore i know. But yea big difference lots of details, look up som psych studies.
Fascist Dominion
23-06-2006, 21:18
Oh HELL no, not just no, but HELL no. Not trying to be mean, Im jsut expressive sometimes ;). But the psychological makeup of man and woman are entirely different, not lesser or greater, but two different but complementary sets, at least, provided that both parts are mentally healthy, not so commona anymore i know. But yea big difference lots of details, look up som psych studies.
I think his point is that we all have similar needs as human beings. That both genders look for similar things in a lover. Well, for their own particular preferences, anyway.
True Being
23-06-2006, 21:26
Ok bottle, I like you, pretty much took te words out of my mouth.

I ahve to say from experience, that in general nice guys are lakcing in confidence and thats the problem. But I am a nice guy, so I ve been told, Im not trying to get in a girl's pants and I really care about the girls I meet, though sometimes its hard with society constantly pounding into my head that sex is everything but anyways. I understand that confidence is important and I am confident about who I am and what I believe, and that really impresses some girls, some think im just a crazy optimistic jesus freak, but whatever, i have good reason behind my beliefs.. My message to all nice guys out there, talk to the girl you like, 9 times out of 10 if shes all aobut assholes, you wont even like her once you knwo her.

Also women do learn and the problem might be that your a teenager who still doesnt know who he is, and looking for girsl who have no idea who they are. So give it some time for people to mature.

Also whoeve said confidence is the middle between cockiness and low self esteem, kudos to ya.
True Being
23-06-2006, 21:27
I think his point is that we all have similar needs as human beings. That both genders look for similar things in a lover. Well, for their own particular preferences, anyway.


Ok I can handle that.
Hardcore LAX Players
23-06-2006, 21:31
I cant imagine that true "bad boys" would even be on this forum, just a thought.
Little India
23-06-2006, 21:33
Why do good guys finish last?

Good guys finish last because Green Day wrote a song to that effect. And everyone knows that everything Green Day say is true.

I'd like to take this opportunity to let you know that Lisa has been evicted from the Big Brother House and will be leaving for her interview with the FABULOUS Davina in just 27 minutes.
Goodie!!
Francis Street
23-06-2006, 21:35
This ties in with the male entitlement thing; if a girl turns down a guy, she's supposed to justify it.
It ties in with male nothing. It works the other way too, Bottle.
Zatarack
23-06-2006, 21:44
Who says we were heading for the same finish line?
Ravea
23-06-2006, 21:46
Because good guys don't kick bad guys in the nuts.

Bad guys, on the other hand, kick good guys in the nuts all the time.
Shoten
23-06-2006, 21:51
The answer is kind of simple, and kind of not. The simple way to put it is that bad boys embody some of the traits that they're really attracted to; in other words, they're the next best thing. The longer, most accurate explanation is that bad boys demonstrate self-confidence, a sense of strength, and a rather dominant attitude, all of which are highly desirable by a lot of women. Now, before anyone says, "No, that's not true, <I | my girlfriend | my wife | whoever> doesn't want that at all", let me say that we're dealing in generalities here; there are lots of exceptions to the rule. I used to be a "perplexed nice guy" like you, however, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Which is the good news...you don't need to compromise your personal ethics and morals, and give up the good traits in you that you prize in order to be successful with women. In fact, when it comes down to it, if you cultivate the truly desired traits while still remaining a good guy, you'll be an 800-pound gorilla, figuratively speaking. Up front, you'll make a good impression which will get their attention and get them talking to you. But then (and this is where I think it counts), as they get to know you even better...you'll be even MORE desirable. It's like golf...you may have a killer Tiger Woods-like swing to get the ball off the tee, but if your short game...the putting that comes later...is weak, you're screwed. You already have your short game down, I'm willing to bet, and just need to learn how to drive the ball.

Don't be discouraged...hang in there, man. It'll work out. :)
Neo Undelia
23-06-2006, 21:54
Good guys don’t finish last. Unattractive wimps with the need to enviously label others as “bad” finish last. I guarantee that good-looking “nice guys" do just fine.
Konstantia3
23-06-2006, 22:06
I agree^
You don't have to be a bad boy, you just have to have something to say.
Usually outspoken guys get the girls, they stuff they say is usually quite provacative and thats why people label them as bad. When in reality "good guys" are just too nice to say anything and get a girl to notice them or they're just simply extremely boring.
Girls look for a guy with a great personality, not just an image/
Bottle
24-06-2006, 02:26
It ties in with male nothing. It works the other way too, Bottle.
It does tie in with male entitlement, but it also does go the other way. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Bottle
24-06-2006, 02:30
bottle rocks



Indeed. Bottle pretty much conquered this thread.



As a minor power allied with Bottle, I must concur. "All your base are belong to [Bottle]."
Lol, thankee kindly, but really all that means is that I'm the only person bored enough to keep beating on this dead horse. :)
Pride and Prejudice
24-06-2006, 02:34
Lol, thankee kindly, but really all that means is that I'm the only person bored enough to keep beating on this dead horse. :)

Then clearly it's time to spam! ;)
Bottle
24-06-2006, 02:35
Then clearly it's time to spam! ;)
Let the Feast of A Thousand Spams begin!!
Rangerville
24-06-2006, 02:36
That depends on what you mean by bad guys and good guys. If by bad guys you mean ones who cheat on women and beat them or something, then contrary to what you seem to think, most women don't want those, though maybe some do. Other people seem to think that someone is a bad guy simply because he wears a leather jacket, or rides a motorcycle or something, when he could actually be really sweet. I like guys who are kind, intelligent, self-confident and have a good sense of humour. It doesn't matter if they are shy or outgoing, tattooed or not, etc. just as long as they are decent guys. That being said, i don't fall for every good guy i come across, because we don't click with everyone we meet. If i meet some good guy and there are no sparks, it doesn't mean i don't like nice guys, it means i don't like him. That's it.
Buddom
24-06-2006, 02:41
I got laid the other night, by a girl I've known for around two weeks, and I soley believe it is because I picked up a rock with my toes and threw it at her and hit her in the face with it.
Bottle
24-06-2006, 02:41
I got laid the other night, by a girl I've known for around two weeks, and I soley believe it is because I picked up a rock with my toes and threw it at her and hit her in the face with it.
Now there's a story for the grandkids.
Ladamesansmerci
24-06-2006, 02:41
Then clearly it's time to spam! ;)
But it's not page 20 yet...we still have another 4 pages to go. :(
Buddom
24-06-2006, 02:46
Now there's a story for the grandkids.

She was impressed with my aim. (lol, please note, I did not actually mean to hit her in the face with it... but now I may try it more often.):)
Bottle
24-06-2006, 02:47
She was impressed with my aim.
If you threw it with your foot, and had that kind of aim, I'd be impressed, too.
Neu Leonstein
24-06-2006, 03:41
I didn't read the whole thread; sorry, 200+ posts is hard to get through, when you just want to post. So If I go over anything already well gone over, I apologize; I just want to give my personal story, as a "nice guy" who actually decided to make the changes nessecary to get with women.

But before that, I suggest reading www.intellectualwhores.com , especially the ladder theory. It was the catalyst of helping change me...
Thank you.
Fascist Dominion
24-06-2006, 03:56
I cant imagine that true "bad boys" would even be on this forum, just a thought.
Nope. They aren't cool enough.:cool:
Fascist Dominion
24-06-2006, 04:03
Lol, thankee kindly, but really all that means is that I'm the only person bored enough to keep beating on this dead horse. :)
No, I'm bored enough. I just can't manage to pay enough attention to sift through text walls. I'm being selfish and lazy. But you seem to have it pretty much covered. I need only post on occasion.
Grainne Ni Malley
24-06-2006, 04:11
I think it can be said that many guys prefer bitchy women over girls who treat them like kings as well. I think has something to do with the appearance of self-confidence that draws an attraction to both genders.

There's a difference between being a "good guy" and a guy who would rather allow himself to be walked upon than stand up for himself. Unfortunately there's a thin line between having self-confidence and being an outright jerk. It can be hard to tell the difference. While I won't tolerate an outright a**hole, I am attracted to guys who are somewhat dominant. Of course he'd have to be pretty dominating to top me. (Hmmm.. I just realized that could be misconstrued. Or not.)
Fascist Dominion
24-06-2006, 04:12
But it's not page 20 yet...we still have another 4 pages to go. :(
That's okay. It's just that there's not turning back at that point. It can begin as early as page 1.:p