NationStates Jolt Archive

I've probably covered a few topics in this that have already been covered or now classed as invalid in the past debate, but I'm too lazy to scroll through 16 pages of the topic, so I'll put forward my ideas anyway. But there's probably mistakes in there somewhere, as I can't be arsed to check it over.



You know....I think rap is known world wide, for better or for worse, for its content..lyrics and rappers. Now my question is, does anyone think its a problem that blacks glorify poverty, killing, drug dealing, no go spots for Whites, crime, basically lowering the status of women to bitches, hoes, and sluts, and an all around lack of respect for goverment/ law and authority?

Now, personally, I like rap, but I think most rappers are idiots...I just like listening to their music. But I know thats not always the case. Many young blacks and whites (known as wiggers) think of these people as their idols and look up to them, for whatever reason, ie they think their cool, they are the cloest to a real father figure...whatever.

Anyway, while most rap flaunts the things I'm talking about, I have a video which does it without breaking stride. Hustlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1o6YrnBb4&search=rick%20ross%20hustlin)

First it starts off in Miami Beach...then strays east into areas notorious to Whites in South Florida like my self...areas such as Liberity City, Carol City, Overtown. These areas are...well, some of the shittiest areas I can think of, comparable to Watts, Compton and such...just other black 'ghettos'.

Anyway, please, state your opinion...dicuss, vote...and in my thread, so long as you dont flame, you have complete freedom of speech, so say what you like...because without open discussion, we have nothing.

*for those not familiar with black slang, hustling means selling/moving/pushing drugs*


What the hell are you talking about, especially about "black people being the cause of crime"?

It is not "black" culture. A "culture" is usually based in an area or country, or even in some cases a continent. You labeling a skin colour as a culture in itself, is appauling and incredibly ignorant on most levels.

Skin is of human decent. A human, is a human, is a human. Nothing but.

But "culture" evolves from the trends of what the people in the area/city/country grew up with, or discovered. For example, music has developed at an alarming rate since the incredibly fast development of human technology - we've discovered electricity, new laws of science, and further still, people are finding new ways to use all kinds of materials and resources. Along with these discoveries we have been able to form new and a much more diverse range of culture.

You labeling black as a culture, as I say again, is false on every level. Jimi Hendrix was black, but he wasn't a rap artist. He didn't inspire millions of teenagers to start becoming criminals. If anything, he was an avid hippy, from the collection of resources I've seen.
As far as I'm concerned, or I know, oppressed black people in the slave trade during the 1800's contributed to the start of humanity's support for equality, and a good number of people have come forward to prove this.

If anything, rising crime rates is more along the idea of either social unrest or the teenage desire to rebel. They (or as I'm typing all this up, "we") have the ideal of an unsatisfying world, due to an awakening to global events, rising levels of education and knowledge within young people, and the ignorance we see around us. Ironically, some of us blindly follow rebellions or new-found fashions from our own ignorance. I may have even made a couple of invalid points probably by not reading the entirety of the topic and its replies :rolleyes:

If anything, the interest in rap and R&B comes from the aggressive and angry opinions of youth, and the new form of music that generated from the end of the 1980's/early 1990's. It was easy to do if you could rhyme, and you didn't need to have a good singing voice, and it was definatly a easy way to voice your point of view.
The only modern problem with modern rap and R&B is that over time, it became distorted, and now a lot of ignorant youth pride and dominance associates itself with this style of music. There is nothing wrong with it. All that's happening is a new trend or fashion is starting itself over the last 10 years, and didn't do a very good job along the way.

So black culture is just a racist and stereotypical term and shouldn't be considered an actual culture of sorts. But different cultures and tastes in faith, music, and activities, are starting to clash.

And in the normal human way, we fear the other. Enough to hate each other, even declare war on ourselves. You blame music for the wrongs of society. Look elsewhere, music is simply the voicing of opinons, beliefs, or perhaps just an entertaining indulgence in which the musicians enjoy and even excel in performing.

"All War is Civil War, For all Men Are Brothers"

So you have two opposing views, and no real way to say who is right. So if someone says they are Jewish, and are not religiously so, can you tell them they are wrong? No.

I will tell them that according to almost every Jew I know....a follower of Islam can never be a Jew..unless he drops the religion of hate and converts to Judaism.


Think of it this way, I think what I'm about to say is pretty unbiased...Jews dont go out killing and converting, we havnt for like over 2000 years, so we remain small in numbers...therefore, Jewish leaders feel like they need to make people feel like they are eternally binded to Jewishness to stop the religion from dying out and the followers from dropping their faith/converting/leaving their Jewishness.

But in reality, we live in an age of individualism, and Judiasm CANNOT be passed on without ones will. Therefore, you are not Jewish unless you persoanlly accept Judaism, not just if your grandmother was Jewish 100 years ago or something stupid like that.

Lets put aside our great dislike for each other for one second, did those two last paragraphs atleast make sense?

Then he should have said that, as opposed to having made such an idiotic statement. I'm not saying he's being deliberately racist, but there's certainly a dismissal of African-American culture and a lack of understanding about the breadth and depth of that culture as a whole. He's a kid, and if he's lucky, he'll pull his head out of his ass and take a look around one day, but for now, he's saying stupid stuff, and the only way he'll learn any different is to be slapped when he does it.

Are you denying that hip hop (mostly) is a part of African-American culture?

There are two types of Jew. Those that are Jewish by religion, and those that are Jewish by ethnicity, but not necessarily by religion. There are many atheist Jews, and many Jews that have simply converted to Judaism.

Oh I've gone round and round with him on this one. He's not changing his mind. In his limited exposure, he believes that he and others like him are the only way to be Jewish, even though Torah, Talmud, thousands of years of Rabbinical writings, and nearly all modern Jews disagree with him and I have proven as such to him, he still sticks to his guns.

So be it. Don't bother.

I will tell them that according to almost every Jew I know....a follower of Islam can never be a Jew..unless he drops the religion of hate and converts to Judaism. Well thankfully, the Jews you know are not representative of the Jews I know, as not one of them would describe Islam as 'the religion of hate'. Anyway, let's not get sidetracked, and simply agree to disagree on this point that isn't really all that dear to my heart anyway.

I will tell them that according to almost every Jew I know....a follower of Islam can never be a Jew..unless he drops the religion of hate and converts to Judaism.

And this is why you must remain in such isolated circles.

You give the rest of us a bad name.

Are you denying that hip hop (mostly) is a part of African-American culture?
Are you denying that hip hop (mostly) is consumed by white people, and therefore has become a part of 'White-American' culture?

Oh I've gone round and round with him on this one. He's not changing his mind. In his limited exposure, he believes that he and others like him are the only way to be Jewish, even though Torah, Talmud, thousands of years of Rabbinical writings, and nearly all modern Jews disagree with him and I have proven as such to him, he still sticks to his guns.

So be it. Don't bother.

Do you know nearly all modern Jews? Because most modern Jews I know think my way.

Well thankfully, the Jews you know are not representative of the Jews I know, as not one of them would describe Islam as 'the religion of hate'. Anyway, let's not get sidetracked, and simply agree to disagree on this point that isn't really all that dear to my heart anyway.

Fine, but can you atleast read the last two paragraphs of that past and reply to that?

Acts black? :rolleyes: As though there's a single way in which black people act. As though there's no deviation inside the culture. God, you are such a child.
Blacks use that term all the time, and when you act "white," they call you oreo and that ilk.

You know....I think rap is known world wide, for better or for worse, for its content..lyrics and rappers. Now my question is, does anyone think its a problem that blacks glorify poverty, killing, drug dealing, no go spots for Whites, crime, basically lowering the status of women to bitches, hoes, and sluts, and an all around lack of respect for goverment/ law and authority?

Now, personally, I like rap, but I think most rappers are idiots...I just like listening to their music. But I know thats not always the case. Many young blacks and whites (known as wiggers) think of these people as their idols and look up to them, for whatever reason, ie they think their cool, they are the cloest to a real father figure...whatever.

Anyway, while most rap flaunts the things I'm talking about, I have a video which does it without breaking stride. Hustlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1o6YrnBb4&search=rick%20ross%20hustlin)

First it starts off in Miami Beach...then strays east into areas notorious to Whites in South Florida like my self...areas such as Liberity City, Carol City, Overtown. These areas are...well, some of the shittiest areas I can think of, comparable to Watts, Compton and such...just other black 'ghettos'.

Anyway, please, state your opinion...dicuss, vote...and in my thread, so long as you dont flame, you have complete freedom of speech, so say what you like...because without open discussion, we have nothing.

*for those not familiar with black slang, hustling means selling/moving/pushing drugs*

Plato, The Republic (BOOK IV)

There seem to be two causes of the deterioration of the arts.

What are they?

Wealth, I said, and poverty.

How do they act?

The process is as follows: When a potter becomes rich, will he, think you, any longer take the same pains with his art?

Certainly not.

He will grow more and more indolent and careless?

Very true.

And the result will be that he becomes a worse potter?

Yes; he greatly deteriorates.

But, on the other hand, if he has no money, and cannot provide himself with tools or instruments, he will not work equally well himself, nor will he teach his sons or apprentices to work equally well.

Certainly not.

Then, under the influence either of poverty or of wealth, workmen and their work are equally liable to degenerate?

That is evident.

Here, then, is a discovery of new evils, I said, against which the guardians will have to watch, or they will creep into the city unobserved.

THUS:
a) The rise of rich gangsta rappers, spreading a "culture" of criminal excess, is a degeneration of music and virtue.
b) The continuation of the poorer rappers is also degeneration of music and virtue.

So in order to save the arts (and the city!) we need to outlaw currency.

What? There's no money/smack/hoes... nothing to rap about anymore? :D

And this is why you must remain in such isolated circles.

You give the rest of us a bad name.

Haha...oh, but I'm not in such isolated circles, at all.

Infact, I've been to prominent Jewish rallies were they discuss the Islamic threat to America, Christians and Jews and We have talked about it in Temple.

YOU give humanity a bad name.

But the rest of your fellow muslims a good one.

Are you denying that hip hop (mostly) is consumed by white people, and therefore has become a part of 'White-American' culture?

One of the reasons why American culture is regarded as very superficial and violent. But the source is blacks. 2nd source is America and it's spreading world wide, which repulses me.....

Do you know nearly all modern Jews? Because most modern Jews I know think my way. You, just like Keruvalia, just like I, do not know every Jew and can therefore not really settle this.

Fine, but can you atleast read the last two paragraphs of that past and reply to that?
I read them, and no, I can't agree with you. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but it's not my place to tell a people how to define their membership. I'll leave it at that....I don't think there is consensus among you.

Blacks use that term all the time, and when you act "white," they call you oreo and that ilk.
At least they get 'oreo' Oreos are yummy. We injuns get called 'apples' if we're too 'white'. Apples are boring.

Infact, I've been to prominent Jewish rallies were they discuss the Islamic threat to America, Christians and Jews and We have talked about it in Temple.

Yet, when asked, you won't even give me the name of your Rabbi so I can call him and record the phone conversation with him that proves you wrong.


But the rest of your fellow muslims a good one.

I'm not Muslim.

One of the reasons why American culture is regarded as very superficial and violent. But the source is blacks. 2nd source is America and it's spreading world wide, which repulses me.....
Hmmm, so the 'infection' begins with the blacks, and the weak hosts are the 'whites' and now the 'black infection via the white hosts' is threatening the rest of the world. OH NOES!!!!:rolleyes:

And did you hear that, US citizens? Apparently your culture is regarded as very superficial and violent.

Haha...oh, but I'm not in such isolated circles, at all.

Infact, I've been to prominent Jewish rallies were they discuss the Islamic threat to America, Christians and Jews and We have talked about it in Temple.

YOU give humanity a bad name.

But the rest of your fellow muslims a good one.
Doesn't mean you still arn't a racist.

You, just like Keruvalia, just like I, do not know every Jew and can therefore not really settle this.


I read them, and no, I can't agree with you. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but it's not my place to tell a people how to define their membership. I'll leave it at that....I don't think there is consensus among you.

Fine. Fair enough, now we can go back to our intense dislike of each other.

At least they get 'oreo' Oreos are yummy. We injuns get called 'apples' if we're too 'white'. Apples are boring.

Apples? Really? Wow. I'm curious as to where that came from.

At least they get 'oreo' Oreos are yummy. We injuns get called 'apples' if we're too 'white'. Apples are boring.
You know what's cool? Crackers.

All the white people can thank The Jeffersons for turning every general white racial slur into the funniest joke ever.

Doesn't mean you still arn't a racist.


Calling people racist, is just your way of silencing them so that they can't disagree with you and express differentiating views. "Racism" is a completely meaningless term now because people go around yelling racism constantly, oft when no race is even involved.

Apples? Really? Wow. I'm curious as to where that came from.

They are generaly considered as being "red," though that is just on average, there is great variation, some even looking white..

At least they get 'oreo' Oreos are yummy. We injuns get called 'apples' if we're too 'white'. Apples are boring.

Oreos: Serving size is three cookies: 160 calories, 7 total fat grams (2 grams saturated fat, 1 gram polyunsaturated fat, 3 grams monounsaturated fat, 1 gram unidentified fat).

Apple: Service size is one apple: 65 calories, 0 total fat grams.

...They may be fat (phat?), but I'd be happier to be an apple.

(Bacon? That's a tough call. But I can live without Oreos...)

You know what's cool? Crackers.

All the white people can thank The Jeffersons for turning every general white racial slur into the funniest joke ever.



What a racist you are!!!

:p

I will say this for the 10000000th time, the hip-hop culture has nothing to do with skin colour. It is not a "black culture" because most of the black skinned people in the World don't listen to hip-hop. It is a culture that came from the poor ghettos that you segrageted them into. By you I mean the American government.

Hmmm, so the 'infection' begins with the blacks, and the weak hosts are the 'whites' and now the 'black infection via the white hosts' is threatening the rest of the world. OH NOES!!!!:rolleyes:

And did you hear that, US citizens? Apparently your culture is regarded as very superficial and violent.

LOL. I didnt define it as an infection. You did...

Correction: I meant American pop/modern culture...There's more to american culture than movies, food and music...(like tall buildings)

I will say this for the 10000000th time, the hip-hop culture has nothing to do with skin colour. It is not a "black culture" because most of the black skinned people in the World don't listen to hip-hop. It is a culture that came from the poor ghettos that you segrageted them into. By you I mean the American government.

Funny, but I always thought it was state governments that did that, and the American government that stopped it...Also, they weren't like that back then when there was segregation, that came with desegregation.

Calling people racist, is just your way of silencing them so that they can't disagree with you and express differentiating views. "Racism" is a completely meaningless term now because people go around yelling racism constantly, oft when no race is even involved.
I can only take this thread and his intentions as racist based on the presentation of the subject matter and aim of this thread.

Funny, but I always thought it was state governments that did that, and the American government that stopped it...Also, they weren't like that back then when there was segregation, that came with desegregation.

Yes but the damage was already done, it is very difficult to desegregate people as their anncestory remains and people who live in poverty do not tend to move from their home. If you look at any ghetto, you will see it is mainly black still.

I can only take this thread and his intentions as racist based on the presentation of the subject matter and aim of this thread.

And what is the subject matter and aim? Finding out whether people think that what rap glorifies is immoral. Just because most rappers are black, does not mean that it is racist. I am sure rappers of other races disgust Atlantian Islands just as much, however, this culture is mainly prevalent amongst African Americans, and to deny that does nothing to solve the problem, and not acknowledging it means that this will continue. Therefore, it is more "racist" to try and silence him simply because he wants this culture to end.

And what is the subject matter and aim? Finding out whether people think that what rap glorifies is immoral. Just because most rappers are black, does not mean that it is racist. I am sure rappers of other races disgust Atlantian Islands just as much, however, this culture is mainly prevalent amongst African Americans, and to deny that does nothing to solve the problem, and not acknowledging it means that this will continue. Therefore, it is more "racist" to try and silence him simply because he wants this culture to end.

The OP did not say that "most rappers are black" he said that rap is a "black culture".

And what is the subject matter and aim? Finding out whether people think that what rap glorifies is immoral. Just because most rappers are black, does not mean that it is racist. I am sure rappers of other races disgust Atlantian Islands just as much, however, this culture is mainly prevalent amongst African Americans, and to deny that does nothing to solve the problem, and not acknowledging it means that this will continue. Therefore, it is more "racist" to try and silence him simply because he wants this culture to end.
He is not saying rap glorifies these things. He is not saying that rap influences the glorification of these things. He is out and out saying blacks as a whole glorify the immoral.
Did you even read the OP? You had almost convinced me that I was wrong in my assesment, then I reread the OP and got a sentence into it before being reassured.

Yes but the damage was already done, it is very difficult to desegregate people as their anncestory remains and people who live in poverty do not tend to move from their home. If you look at any ghetto, you will see it is mainly black still.

Sadly, many nice neighbourhoods become ghettos once they are swapmed by people who glorify what is seen as the general (i.e. not EVERY black) "african american culture." Both my grandmothers had such experiences. Also, the nation has been desegregated for nearly half a century, if it was due to segregation then blacks would have assimilated by now, most blacks that lived during segregation are dead.

The OP did not say that "most rappers are black" he said that rap is a "black culture".

In America, it indeed is. Clearly you know little about steryo-typical african Americans.

In America, it indeed is. Clearly you know little about steryo-typical african Americans.

That still does not make it "Black culture", thats like saying Dutch speaking people are "white culture".

Fine. Fair enough, now we can go back to our intense dislike of each other.
With pleasure.

Apples? Really? Wow. I'm curious as to where that came from.
You know 'red' on the outside, 'white' on the inside?

In America, it indeed is. Clearly you know little about steryo-typical african Americans.
No, it fucking isn't. Whether or not black people are the main patrons of "hip hop culture" does not change the fact that it is not "black" culture. The fucking end.

God damn ignorance and racism.

No, it fucking isn't. Whether or not black people are the main patrons of "hip hop culture" does not change the fact that it is not "black" culture. The fucking end.

God damn ignorance and racism.

Claps hands!

That still does not make it "Black culture", thats like saying Dutch speaking people are "white culture".


No, dutch are a minority of whites, 16 million (not incl. those not in the Neterlands). However, Dutch culture, besides the language, what they put on fries, and a few other things, is a lot like other "white" cultures. Does that mean black people can't act like that? Yes and no, yes, they can, but no because when they do their black friends start insulting them and calling them oreo. Now, that is not to say this is across the board how it always is, but it is in many cases.

Yeah, he's a huge fan of My Nordland too...always defending our Generalite racists.

Your Nordland? Why do you always call me that? Do you see me as a property? A sex object? OMG. Political Incorrectness Alert Alarm Ring the Bells HEEEEELP....

Or are you telling us you bought some land in Canada? Canada is in north afterall and it cant be real Nordland.

There is another possibility but I guess that's not it. No body can be that easily amused. Ny sounds like my, so what. This is a thing a kindergarden student would do. So it cant be this option, can it?

Hmmm?

No, it fucking isn't. Whether or not black people are the main patrons of "hip hop culture" does not change the fact that it is not "black" culture. The fucking end.

God damn ignorance and racism.

Then please do explain what you see "black" culture as.

Then please do explain what you see "black" culture as.
There is no single 'black culture'. That's part of why you've been labelled as ignorant.

No, dutch are a minority of whites, 16 million (not incl. those not in the Neterlands). However, Dutch culture, besides the language, what they put on fries, and a few other things, is a lot like other "white" cultures. Does that mean black people can't act like that? Yes and no, yes, they can, but no because when they do their black friends start insulting them and calling them oreo. Now, that is not to say this is across the board how it always is, but it is in many cases.

African Americans are a minority among blacks, you just proved my point.

You know....I think rap is known world wide, for better or for worse, for its content..lyrics and rappers. Now my question is, does anyone think its a problem that blacks glorify poverty, killing, drug dealing, no go spots for Whites, crime, basically lowering the status of women to bitches, hoes, and sluts, and an all around lack of respect for goverment/ law and authority?

Now, personally, I like rap, but I think most rappers are idiots...I just like listening to their music. But I know thats not always the case. Many young blacks and whites (known as wiggers) think of these people as their idols and look up to them, for whatever reason, ie they think their cool, they are the cloest to a real father figure...whatever.

Anyway, while most rap flaunts the things I'm talking about, I have a video which does it without breaking stride. Hustlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1o6YrnBb4&search=rick%20ross%20hustlin)

First it starts off in Miami Beach...then strays east into areas notorious to Whites in South Florida like my self...areas such as Liberity City, Carol City, Overtown. These areas are...well, some of the shittiest areas I can think of, comparable to Watts, Compton and such...just other black 'ghettos'.

Anyway, please, state your opinion...dicuss, vote...and in my thread, so long as you dont flame, you have complete freedom of speech, so say what you like...because without open discussion, we have nothing.

*for those not familiar with black slang, hustling means selling/moving/pushing drugs*
Your topic is titled "Questioning Black Culture". That implies you mean all black people.
Yet your post is actually about Hip Hop/RnB/Rap, which all blacks doesn't live or try to emulate.
That is your first mistake.

Again, your topic is called "Questioning Black Culture" implying you mean all blacks, and you use a few cities/parts of cities in the US, when blacks can be found in every country on the globe, more or less.
That is your second mistake.

By focusing on a specific 'culture' and listing the reason you think it is wrong, yet not including the social and economical context that culture exists within, you show yourself as making a judgement based on morals and limited facts.
That is your third mistake.




If you live north of the Mason-Dixon line and don't live in Brooklyn or Detroit, you have no idea what you're talking about. Don't feed me the "thats just a stereotype from TV" crap, because it isn't. I live just outside of New Orleans. In the New Orleans ghettos, everybody is like that. Or were you're only impressions of New Orleans blacks from when some drunk ass was calling them a downtrodden but hearty and good people that Bush was walking on?
You have been to the ghetto and can affirm that everyone is like that, literaly?
Besides, the situation is much the same in the suburbs of Paris, the ghettos around Madrid and Barcelona and in the poorer catholic areas of Belfast.
Yet those places does not have a predominatly black population (excpet Madrid/Barcelona I think).
Why then is the situation the same (poverty, violence, crimes)?
Because they are immigrants and/or refugees?
You automatically become a criminal if you are?

Don't they teach about social structures in the US schools?
It's more related to class and the culture of that class than race.

There is no single 'black culture'. That's part of why you've been labelled as ignorant.

Indeed there is not, no 2 people even act the same. However, you seem not to possess the calibre of intelligence capable to realise that there is a general "culture" over all that a majority subscribe to. Going by your standards, there is no such thing as a culture.

African Americans are a minority among blacks, you just proved my point.

No I didn't. We were only ever talking about them, not able blacks in India, Australia, and elsewhere.

No I didn't. We were only ever talking about them, not able blacks in India, Australia, and elsewhere.

Most of the time, people have been criticizing "black culture", how does that mean african american culture.

There is no single 'black culture'. That's part of why you've been labelled as ignorant.

Actually, you could go as far as putting forward the point of "black culture" being an irrelevant term - there are plenty of black people in modern society that aren't involved in the culture described here.

One of the reasons why American culture is regarded as very superficial and violent. But the source is blacks. 2nd source is America and it's spreading world wide, which repulses me.....

Good man. Not entirely true, given the secondary diversity of American culture, however its primary visage is terribly superficail.

I like conscious and political rap. Gangsta rap may have some nice beats and is fine if they are describing how it is, but not if they are pushing it as a legitimate way of life.

shit like "So I reached back like a pimp and slapped the hoe" is disturbing to me (unless being parodied by someone who finds it just as disturbing and is makign fun of it)

Getting way too polarized. Take five minutes out for this Dave Chapelle skit...

http://www.limanon.com/menu/films/chapelle/niggarfamily.html
(If you've never seen it before, WATCH THE WHOLE THING!)

... and now back to our regularly scheduled flaming...

Most of the time, people have been criticizing "black culture", how does that mean african american culture.

Were we talking about people in India and aboriginal australians? I have never heard of an Aboriginal rapper, please do tell, I am interested to know... ;)

Getting way too polarized. Take five minutes out for this Dave Chapelle skit...

http://www.limanon.com/menu/films/chapelle/niggarfamily.html
(If you've never seen it before, WATCH THE WHOLE THING!)

... and now back to our regularly scheduled flaming...

It's allright, weve reached 20 pages, it is only a matter of time.

Were we talking about people in India and aboriginal australians? I have never heard of an Aboriginal rapper, please do tell, I am interested to know... ;)

Nor have I, thats why there is no "black culture". There may be a very small chance that there is some sort of African American culture, but not "black culture".

For the record, there are black leaders like Bill Cosby who have come out and denounced the current image that mainstream rap is portraying...

Nor have I, thats why there is no "black culture". There may be a very small chance that there is some sort of African American culture, but not "black culture".

You see, you must twist words around because you have no more point to make. When an American is speaking of "black culture," they are usually talking about African Americans. Well, unless you are deliberately trying to waste time and confuse people instead of having a real debate we can always go into word games saying well "you can't say black because not all black people are african American." We are, and have been talking about African American culture, he said before something like "I don't know if it is like this where you live, but..blah blah blah" We weren't talking about African bushmen who are somehow "in da hood" rapping all night and doing drugs, now were we?
Now, I am sorry, but I must be off, I didn't expect to be here this long.

For the record, there are black leaders like Bill Cosby who have come out and denounced the current image that mainstream rap is portraying...


Indeed, and rightly they should, as it is a corrupt and immoral image that rap glorifies.

For the record, there are black leaders like Bill Cosby who have come out and denounced the current image that mainstream rap is portraying...

And they've been reamed new assholes by the black community.

For the record, I admire Bill Cosby and others like him for what he/they have done and said.

Were we talking about people in India and aboriginal australians? I have never heard of an Aboriginal rapper, please do tell, I am interested to know... ;)
What, just an Australian Aboriginal...because Canada has a number of aboriginal rappers...Red Nation, OS-12, Chillichillachillo, Hip Hop Ikwe, Lil’ Dave, Mr. Phixx, Manik, ABK etc, etc, etc...

I still say it's more about social classes, not race.

The post that quoted Plato illustrated the point quite well.
And the 'all we have to do is get rid of currency' very funny. :D

What, just an Australian Aboriginal...because Canada has a number of aboriginal rappers...Red Nation, OS-12, Chillichillachillo, Hip Hop Ikwe, Lil’ Dave, Mr. Phixx, Manik, ABK etc, etc, etc...

They are American indians, not black.

You see, you must twist words around because you have no more point to make. When an American is speaking of "black culture," they are usually talking about African Americans. If they want to be so US-Centric, they should post on a US forum.

I still say it's more about social classes, not race.

The post that quoted Plato illustrated the point quite well.
And the 'all we have to do is get rid of currency' very funny. :D

Thanks. :)

And they've been reamed new assholes by the black community.

For the record, I admire Bill Cosby and others like him for what he/they have done and said.
There is no 'black community'. There are MANY communities. Just as Bill Cosby represents a segment, so do rappers, so do religious blacks, so do homosexual blacks, so do tree-hugging blacks...resign yourself to diversity, and to the fact that 'blacks' are not a homogenous people with a homogenous culture and a homogenous set of values. Kind of like 'whites'. Scary, isn't it?

Nor have I, thats why there is no "black culture". There may be a very small chance that there is some sort of African American culture, but not "black culture".

That's an even worse label.
African american = An african living in america, or an american citizen of african decent.
You will also notice people from africa don't have to be just black. There are white people from Africa too, and not the european migrants to africa during the 1800's.
Culture is dependant on the people from a country. Rap and R&B (and its newly-gained materialistic image) originated in America. Not by a race, in a country. It's hard to pin-point, so labels are irrelavent.

If they want to be so US-Centric, they should post on a US forum.

To any intelligible person, who was being talked about has been made more than clear. I am sorry for your "ignorance," to African American culture, I thought with people claiming it was ebing spread around the world you would surely know. Also, if you wish to be global, why do you post in a US-centric thread?

And they've been reamed new assholes by the black community.

Define "black community."

And while you're at it, define "black culture."

I second what has been said about black culture in Britain. There's nothing more pathetic than spoiled middle class whites who listen to american rap music that talks about ghettos running from the law, when they've lived their entire lives in a middle class suburb, parents owning several cars, private school education, ect. They really need to act their. Why the hell has this trash been able to infect Britain, and why the hell do whites listen to this crap? Hell, if I listened to rap music my dad would end up killing me!

They are American indians, not black.
You specifically asked about aboriginal rappers, and they are from Canada, and are aboriginals of the Americas. I asked if you were only asking about 'black skinned' aboriginals from Australia...so were you?

There is no 'black community'.

I can think of millions of people that disagree with you.


resign yourself to diversity

No.

To any intelligible person, who was being talked about has been made more than clear. I am sorry for your "ignorance," to African American culture, I thought with people claiming it was ebing spread around the world you would surely know. Also, if you wish to be global, why do you post in a US-centric thread?
Welcome to this forum. There are many US-Centric threads, but we are by no means restrained from pointing out that the US is not the world, and specific parameters should be laid out...they weren't. A 'black culture' was defined by US stereotypes, and that has no yet been rescinded. But you must be one of the people who believe that there is a mythical homogenous 'black culture' within the US...which explains your lack of anything substantial to say.

There is no 'black community'. There are MANY communities. Just as Bill Cosby represents a segment, so do rappers, so do religious blacks, so do homosexual blacks, so do tree-hugging blacks...resign yourself to diversity, and to the fact that 'blacks' are not a homogenous people with a homogenous culture and a homogenous set of values. Kind of like 'whites'. Scary, isn't it?

Yes. Yes there is. Diversity is concurrent to homogeny. Only a small proportion of blacks listen to anything other than music endemic to their culture, and oddly, black people, proporionately commit more crime. But surely that doesn't matter, its the nasty white man's fault isn't it?

I can think of millions of people that disagree with you.
Wow...are they all named Bubba?

Wow...are they all named Bubba?

Only a quarter of them are.

Welcome to this forum. There are many US-Centric threads, but we are by no means restrained from pointing out that the US is not the world, and specific parameters should be laid out...they weren't. A 'black culture' was defined by US stereotypes, and that has no yet been rescinded. But you must be one of the people who believe that there is a mythical homogenous 'black culture' within the US...which explains your lack of anything substantial to say.

Black culture, to the rest of the world, is homgenous. How many Japenese children are aware f Bill Crosby? Very few. How many consider "Fiddy cent" to be representative of black culture? Countless.

Yes. Yes there is. Diversity is concurrent to homogeny. Only a small proportion of blacks listen to anything other than music endemic to their culture, and oddly, black people, proporionately commit more crime. But surely that doesn't matter, its the nasty white man's fault isn't it?
What social class does the majority of arrested blacks come from?

You specifically asked about aboriginal rappers, and they are from Canada, and are aboriginals of the Americas. I asked if you were only asking about 'black skinned' aboriginals from Australia...so were you?

My God! Don't you know how to read? have you Alzheimer's or something? We are talking about BLACK people! Not "red," if it can even be called that! I stated "aboriginal australians" so I was obviously not talking about aboriginal Americans, aboriginal Fins, aboriginal Britons.

Black culture, to the rest of the world, is homgenous. How many Japenese children are aware f Bill Crosby? Very few. How many consider "Fiddy cent" to be representative of black culture? Countless.

Which means what, precisely? That they're as ignorant as Atlantian Isles?

Welcome to this forum. There are many US-Centric threads, but we are by no means restrained from pointing out that the US is not the world, and specific parameters should be laid out...they weren't. A 'black culture' was defined by US stereotypes, and that has no yet been rescinded. But you must be one of the people who believe that there is a mythical homogenous 'black culture' within the US...which explains your lack of anything substantial to say.

Well, I'm not so sure about that, arnt you one of those fools that claims that Americas influence streches so far, that Canadians and Brazilians are Americans?

*Bursts out laughing*

thats so pathetic.

Yes. Yes there is. Diversity is concurrent to homogeny. Only a small proportion of blacks listen to anything other than music endemic to their culture, and oddly, black people, proporionately commit more crime. But surely that doesn't matter, its the nasty white man's fault isn't it?
It's really too bad that your own personal inability to tell the differences between people because they share the same skin colour (or shades of the same skin colour) is somehow seen by you as 'proof' of the existence of a 'community' to which all said sharers of skin tone belong to, and are responsible for. What a narrow-minded little world you live in.

And yet I bet you'd hate it if the same was done to you...and all 'white' people were considered to be of the same community, with the same values, the same faults, and the same issues.

What social class does the majority of arrested blacks come from?

The underclass. But there are millions of proletarians who are white, and have a considerably lower crime rate. Hence the rate is endemic to black culture.

Which means what, precisely? That they're as ignorant as Atlantian Isles?

isLANDS...isLANDS

It's really too bad that your own personal inability to tell the differences between people because they share the same skin colour (or shades of the same skin colour) is somehow seen by you as 'proof' of the existence of a 'community' to which all said sharers of skin tone belong to, and are responsible for. What a narrow-minded little world you live in.

And yet I bet you'd hate it if the same was done to you...and all 'white' people were considered to be of the same community, with the same values, the same faults, and the same issues.

The difference is, white culture is clearly defined into cliques and groups. Black culture is not. Ever seen a black goth?

The underclass. But there are millions of proletarians who are white, and have a considerably lower crime rate. Hence the rate is endemic to black culture.

Don't use "proletarians" if you don't know what the word means. It is not synonymous with "underclass."

What social class does the majority of arrested blacks come from?

I don't see how poverty could be a motive for rape, murder and assault.

Black culture, to the rest of the world, is homgenous. How many Japenese children are aware f Bill Crosby? Very few. How many consider "Fiddy cent" to be representative of black culture? Countless.
Ignorance is not reality, no matter how much you desperately want it to be, and if you claim not to be ignorant, you should not use the ignorance of others to back yourself up.

Is there an Asian community?

In the minds of people who can't tell the difference, for sure.

Poor Africa, poor blacks of the Carribean, of South America...labelled by the ignorant people who think that 'black culture' is defined by a few black media moguls in the US.

Welcome to this forum. There are many US-Centric threads, but we are by no means restrained from pointing out that the US is not the world, and specific parameters should be laid out...they weren't. A 'black culture' was defined by US stereotypes, and that has no yet been rescinded. But you must be one of the people who believe that there is a mythical homogenous 'black culture' within the US...which explains your lack of anything substantial to say.

I have had more substance in my posts than yourself. You are simply playing silly word games and not even debating. Americans know the US is not the world, you feel the need to say that just because something happens in the US, that it isn't always like that elsewhere. That is simply pointing out the obvious. Different nations/peoples have different ways of life. Also, we are talking about black US steryo-types, because most of us have not been to Africa, Southern India, or the Outback, and those area's have little affect on our way of life. Therefore, we do not feel the need to comment about them.

Don't use "proletarians" if you don't know what the word means. It is not synonymous with "underclass."

Oh, what happend...he offended the teachings of your sacred Marx?

Don't use "proletarians" if you don't know what the word means. It is not synonymous with "underclass."

Actually, I rather think I do. Indeed, despite being a Conservative party member, I could probably outhink you in a Marxist debate.

To a certain perspective, proletarian and underclass are synonomous.

My God! Don't you know how to read? have you Alzheimer's or something? We are talking about BLACK people! Not "red," if it can even be called that! I stated "aboriginal australians" so I was obviously not talking about aboriginal Americans, aboriginal Fins, aboriginal Britons.
My God! Don't you know the defnition of aboriginal includes Australian aboriginees? That they aren't 'black' to the rest of the aboriginal peoples of this world, but are in fact considered indigenous, native, like the rest of us?

Ignorance is not reality, no matter how much you desperately want it to be, and if you claim not to be ignorant, you should not use the ignorance of others to back yourself up.

Is there an Asian community?

In the minds of people who can't tell the difference, for sure.

Poor Africa, poor blacks of the Carribean, of South America...labelled by the ignorant people who think that 'black culture' is defined by a few black media moguls in the US.

Perceptions are generally more potent than reality. The issue is a platonic perception of black culture as homogenously violent, homophobic and criminal.

isLANDS...isLANDS

A weird error on my part.

Perhaps you are unaware of how black people continue to treat white people in this country roday?

Perhaps, but I think more likely you are aware you are just to left wing to admit it.

I admit I'd suspicions before, but thanks for clarifying.

You have steadfastly ignored the fact that "rap" is mostly consumed by the white market since it was raised, btw.


Haha...oh, but I'm not in such isolated circles, at all.

Infact, I've been to prominent Jewish rallies were they discuss the Islamic threat to America, Christians and Jews and We have talked about it in Temple.


I'm sure you have. However the international Jewish community is widely acknowledged as being, in the main, left leaning, and regards that kind of thing with the same appalled attitude and embarrasment that practising christians do their right wing American fundamentalist counterparts.


But the source is blacks. 2nd source is America and it's spreading world wide, which repulses me.....

The source is the white public who buy it, the business which finds the ideas of black people conforming to an a-political stereotype easy to market to same, and the urge to make money from the combination of the two by the artists in question.

"World hip-hop questions US rap
A recent international hip-hop festival which brought together rap artists from around the world has raised the question of why non-US rap is so political - whereas mainstream American rap appears frivolous.
Many of the performers at the three-day Trinity International Hip-Hop Festival in Hartford, Connecticut, were critical of the way that US rap - which is by far the best-selling - appears concerned mostly with money, drugs and sex, and has little to do with its roots in the angry political expression of groups like Public Enemy or KRS One. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4950692.stm

Well, I'm not so sure about that, arnt you one of those fools that claims that Americas influence streches so far, that Canadians and Brazilians are Americans?

*Bursts out laughing*

thats so pathetic.
Well, if you are really capable of miscontruing the fact that the Americas are a continent, and that in fact, Canadians and Brazilians, and citizens of the US are indeed Americans and has nothing to do with US influence...yes, that is pathetic.

The difference is, white culture is clearly defined into cliques and groups. Black culture is not. Ever seen a black goth?

Yep I have - plenty of them live in Hollywood.

Sinner clearly gave you several different clearly defined groups of black people already.

Black culture, to the rest of the world, is homgenous. How many Japenese children are aware f Bill Crosby? Very few. How many consider "Fiddy cent" to be representative of black culture? Countless.
If you think that, neighbour, you know less about "the rest of the world" than you think.

The difference is, white culture is clearly defined into cliques and groups. Black culture is not. Ever seen a black goth?

Um... I've never seen a white Rastafarian, either.
(C'MON! EVERY group has subcultures!)

Um... I've never seen a white Rastafarian, either.
(C'MON! EVERY group has subcultures!)

But the perception of black culture is that it does not.

The difference is, white culture is clearly defined into cliques and groups. Black culture is not. Ever seen a black goth?
I've seen:

Black goths, black trannies, black punks, black preppies, black jocks, black headbangers, black stoners, black skaters etc, etc, etc...

See, you don't see, because you aren't actually looking for something that might disrupt your worldview.

If you think that, neighbour, you know less about "the rest of the world" than you think.

Firstly, do not call me neigbour. Secondly, where do you live? The USA I should imagine?

A weird error on my part.

No prob, dude..I was just nitpicking, I wasnt actually upset.

But the perception of black culture is that it does not.

dont pretend that your limited perception pertains to the rest of us.

Perceptions are generally more potent than reality. The issue is a platonic perception of black culture as homogenously violent, homophobic and criminal.
I perceive you as a vapid, skinny little teenager with acne, who pauses often to scratch his scabious scalp and run his fingers alongside his oily nose, pausing often to mine the depths of his nasal cavities.

My perception is more potent than the reality? How nice.

Well, if you are really capable of miscontruing the fact that the Americas are a continent, and that in fact, Canadians and Brazilians, and citizens of the US are indeed Americans and has nothing to do with US influence...yes, that is pathetic.

I thought schooling in Canada was good?? No?

North America and South America are the continents, American is describing people from a country, NORTH and SOUTH American are describing people from the two very different continents of North and South America.

The underclass. But there are millions of proletarians who are white, and have a considerably lower crime rate. Hence the rate is endemic to black culture.
Have you checked if this is the case in countries outside US?
Have you checked in what numbers (in %) police checks on the same social group based on their skin colour?
(Ergo; have you checked wether the police checks on blacks more often than hispanic or white?)


Besides, feed an image to people enough, and it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy. From both sides of the image.

To a certain perspective, proletarian and underclass are synonomous.

Except if you want to discuss the issue meaningfully, you have to make the distinction. The racial composition of the US underclass is very different from the racial composition of the US proletariat, if the latter term can even be used meaningfully in today's economy.

I've seen:

Black goths, black trannies, black punks, black preppies, black jocks, black headbangers, black stoners, black skaters etc, etc, etc...

See, you don't see, because you aren't actually looking for something that might disrupt your worldview.


Actually, those aren't cultures because look, they are just in Canada, not Africa and everywhere else..so you have to say "black Canadians and Americans" not blacks!

See, I can play word games too. :P

Um... I've never seen a white Rastafarian, either.
(C'MON! EVERY group has subcultures!)
Well I've seen wannabe white Rastafarians...with the tie-dye, the dreadlocks and such...smoking inordinate amounts of weed and listening to Bob Marley...do they count?

Firstly, do not call me neigbour. Secondly, where do you live? The USA I should imagine?
Nope. I make my abode in the frozen wastelands of the european north. ;)

For the record, I admire Bill Cosby and others like him for what he/they have done and said.

Yep ... gotta love the old shuck and jive for whitey, eh?

I thought schooling in Canada was good?? No?

North America and South America are the continents, American is describing people from a country, NORTH and SOUTH American are describing people from the two very different continents of North and South America.
I thought you'd gotten tired of banging your head against the fact that what you learn about the continents, regardless of where you live, is quite possibly going to be based on different criteria, and no one can claim to be THE UBER RIGHT?

The Americas are a continent. North and south are directional indicators only. You may disagree, because you work from another framework, but it doesn't make you right. Just outvoted.

Actually, those aren't cultures because look, they are just in Canada, not Africa and everywhere else..so you have to say "black Canadians and Americans" not blacks!

See, I can play word games too. :PNot well it seems.

I never said they were cultures. They are subcultures. And the statement was 'have you ever seen a black goth', to which the reply is 'yes'.

I'm sure you have. However the international Jewish community is widely acknowledged as being, in the main, left leaning, and regards that kind of thing with the same appalled attitude and embarrasment that practising christians do their right wing American fundamentalist counterparts.

Unfortunatly, your right, but even the most leftist Jews I know realize the dangers of Islam and its followers and support Israel against Palestine.

There is an ex mayor from New York (Jewish) who gave a speech at this big Jewish rally I went to all about the threat and dangers of Islam and the Muslims, he got applaud from the whole room. A very very big room. and this is in South Florida, a very liberal area, and these people were Jewish on top of that..a very liberal religion.

Unfortunatly, your right, but even the most leftist Jews I know realize the dangers of Islam and its followers and support Israel against Palestine.

There is an ex mayor from New York (Jewish) who gave a speech at this big Jewish rally I went to all about the threat and dangers of Islam and the Muslims, he got applaud from the whole room. A very very big room. and this is in South Florida, a very liberal area, and these people were Jewish on top of that..a very liberal religion.

But thats America.

Well I've seen wannabe white Rastafarians...with the tie-dye, the dreadlocks and such...smoking inordinate amounts of weed and listening to Bob Marley...do they count?

I've met some legitamite white rastafarians. The "white power structure" referred to by Tafari Makonnen is nowdays being meant as "white wealthy" and poor white folks often turn to the deeper spiritual nature of Rasta to break away from Christianity. The movement changed a lot in the 1980s. Even women are allowed to speak their minds and menstruating women can now cook.

Unfortunatly, your right, but even the most leftist Jews I know realize the dangers of Islam and its followers and support Israel against Palestine.

You don't know very many leftist Jews, then. Most of us aren't, in fact, bigots.

I've met some legitamite white rastafarians. The "white power structure" referred to by Tafari Makonnen is nowdays being meant as "white wealthy" and poor white folks often turn to the deeper spiritual nature of Rasta to break away from Christianity. The movement changed a lot in the 1980s. Even women are allowed to speak their minds and menstruating women can now cook.
Well, I don't actually think these guys were Rastafarians...but thanks for the info ;D

I thought you'd gotten tired of banging your head against the fact that what you learn about the continents, regardless of where you live, is quite possibly going to be based on different criteria, and no one can claim to be THE UBER RIGHT?

The Americas are a continent. North and south are directional indicators only. You may disagree, because you work from another framework, but it doesn't make you right. Just outvoted.

*laughs at this fem indian canadian who thinks shes right*

What is the official name of this country? United States of America. Every nation on earth recognizes that name.

What are our people called, Americans? Every nation on earth legally recognizes us by that name.

In the history books, it is the American Revolution, the God Bless America song, on our currency that is taken all around the world, United States of America. When I read foreign news, they refer to us as Americans. Even when a relative of mine got screamed at by an old nazi in Germany, it was AMERICAN SWINE!...I'm afraid your outvoted and you lose, regardless of what you and others like you think.

*Is comforted by the fact that the name he uses is internationaly recognized, and the name she uses is only used to be annoying by a few NSers*

*laughs again*

You don't know very many leftist Jews, then. Most of us aren't, in fact, bigots.

Are you kidding, I live in the tri-county area...this is Jew-Haven. Liberal-Jew-Haven.

But thats America.

Most Jews are in America and Israel..so I'm not just being American-Centric it really matters as the Israeli Jews are almost always gonna support Israel.

European Jewry may not support Israel to the same extent, but generally they still support it over the armies of Islam.

*laughs at this fem indian canadian who thinks shes right* Laughs at you, who can't focus enough to argue the point that was made, and goes off on a tangent about something else.

Here's a recap. You went on about the continents...you state there are two in the Americas, North and South. I argue that you may be right within your contextual frame or reference, but that others use a differente frame of references in which the Americas are one continent, with North and South being directional markers only. You are outvoted in the sense that more people in the Americas believe that the Americas are one continent, than believe they are two. (of course, outvoted doesn't mean you have to change your view, but it does reinforce the idea that just because YOU were taught something, doesn't mean it is correct, or the only way to look at it.)

This has, in fact, nothing to do with what people from the US are called...that is an entirely different argument. Sorry you got so confuddled.

There is an ex mayor from New York (Jewish) who gave a speech at this big Jewish rally I went to all about the threat and dangers of Islam and the Muslims, he got applaud from the whole room. A very very big room. and this is in South Florida, a very liberal area, and these people were Jewish on top of that..a very liberal religion.

So a Jewish conservative spoke, got some applause from Jewish conservatives, and you think that is the voice of the global Jewish community?

What a tiny, tiny world you live in.

Are you kidding, I live in the tri-county area...this is Jew-Haven. Liberal-Jew-Haven.

Well, firstly, "leftist" is not equal to "liberal."

Secondly, I know lots of liberal Jews, too. While the majority do indeed support "Israel" over "Palestine" (as far as that kind of statement even has meaning, which is not very far), only one or two has ever said a word about the danger of "Islam." The danger of al Qaeda and Hamas, yes, but of Islam, no.

Now, right-wing Jews are another story entirely.

A reminder for Atlantian:

Although conversion to Islam is considered apostasy by all branches of Judaism, halakha (Jewish law) states that a child born of a Jewish mother is a Jew regardless of the faith they practice. Thus in Jewish law a Jew who converts to Islam remains a Jew, and is able to return to Judaism without conversion (see Baal teshuva).

My conversion to Islam did not stop me from being Jewish.

I know you'll ignore this, though. *shrug*

Laughs at you, who can't focus enough to argue the point that was made, and goes off on a tangent about something else.

Here's a recap. You went on about the continents...you state there are two in the Americas, North and South. I argue that you may be right within your contextual frame or reference, but that others use a differente frame of references in which the Americas are one continent, with North and South being directional markers only. You are outvoted in the sense that more people in the Americas believe that the Americas are one continent, than believe they are two. (of course, outvoted doesn't mean you have to change your view, but it does reinforce the idea that just because YOU were taught something, doesn't mean it is correct, or the only way to look at it.)

This has, in fact, nothing to do with what people from the US are called...that is an entirely different argument. Sorry you got so confuddled.
Dioesn't the confusion stem from the fact that America is the name of both a country and a continent?

To lessent the confusion, North and South-America was adopted, but it's still one continent (arguably*), held together by Central America (oh yeah, let's throw another in the mix! :P).

The practice of refering to the whole continent as the Americas, the upper mass as North America and the lower mass as South Amrica and US as America seems a workable solution.

Or, just remane the bloody continent and get rid of the problem once and for all.
Since there's no national pride in the name of a continent, the issue should take more than 80 years of scholarly debate, a minor war and three big brawls to settle.

So a Jewish conservative spoke, got some applause from Jewish conservatives, and you think that is the voice of the global Jewish community?

What a tiny, tiny world you live in.

You missed that point that almost everyone in that room was liberal and he that speaker was a democrat, not a conservative.

Most Jews are in America and Israel..so I'm not just being American-Centric it really matters as the Israeli Jews are almost always gonna support Israel.

European Jewry may not support Israel to the same extent, but generally they still support it over the armies of Islam.

O They support the idea of a Jewish state. Just not the one envisualised by a bunch of right wing weirdos working themselves into a frenzy over in the US.

"armies of Islam"....ha.

You still havent addressed the fact that "rap" is marketed at and consumed by whitey, btw.

A reminder for Atlantian:



My conversion to Islam did not stop me from being Jewish.

I know you'll ignore this, though. *shrug*

I will ignore it, because the first sentance says enough for me.

If you dropped Islam, you can become Jewish again...but when you were following Islam, you were not Jewish.

You missed that point that almost everyone in that room was liberal and he that speaker was a democrat, not a conservative.

Ed Koch?

O They support the idea of a Jewish state. Just not the one envisualised by a bunch of right wing weirdos working themselves into a frenzy over in the US.

"armies of Islam"....ha.

You still havent addressed the fact that "rap" is marketed at and consumed by whitey, btw.

Its taken seriously by ghetto blacks who try to be just like the rappers. Its also glorrifying black crime, murder and drug dealing.

Its glorrifying the terrible things in the black community...who listens to what it says, is a different ballgame alltogther.

Its taken seriously by ghetto blacks who try to be just like the rappers. Its also glorrifying black crime, murder and drug dealing.

Let's assume, for the same of argument, that both of those statements are true.

Now please explain how you can legitimately conflate "rap music taken seriously by ghetto blacks" with general "black culture."

Ed Koch?

Thats the one.

Thats the one.

He endorsed George W. Bush.

Yes, he is a conservative.

Let's assume, for the same of argument, that both of those statements are true.

Now please explain how you can legitimately conflate "rap music taken seriously by ghetto blacks" with general "black culture."

No way. I've already talked about that throughout the whole thread.

You can read it, but its almost time for me to go play in my basketball game, and I really dont want to get involved in another large scale arguement like I had been in earlier.

Its taken seriously by ghetto blacks who try to be just like the rappers. Its also glorrifying black crime, murder and drug dealing.

Its glorrifying the terrible things in the black community...who listens to what it says, is a different ballgame alltogther.

Well....as white people want to see and identify with a black stereotype that suits their preconceptions, and as the music is increasingly aimed at them rather than being a chronicle of existence, I'd say its a great deal to do with it.

He endorsed George W. Bush.

Yes, he is a conservative.

He is no conservative.

John Kerry backed the War in Iraq..is he conservative?

Let me read his wiki article then I will post something else.

Thats the one.


Mr "Jesse Jackson is anti-Jew". That one?

He endorsed George W. Bush.

Yes, he is a conservative.

Read it, he is no liberal...but he is a democrat and no conservative. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Koch)

Black american hoodlum culture today is a huge impediment to their advancement.

I would not (and cannot believe that any self-respecting company would) hire some babbling fool wearing clothes that didnt fit and women's jewelry.

Glorfying being a poor drug-addict or criminal is not how you find success in a civilized country.

BLACK KULTUR IS A KLASS KULTUUR...
Never will it become a sub one.
now pawn it and enjoy the ride

BLACK KULTUR IS A KLASS KULTUUR...
Never will it become a sub one.
now pawn it and enjoy the ride


Is this supposed to mean anything in english?

I will ignore it, because the first sentance says enough for me.

You can't read one sentence of something. It says, quite plainly, that while it's considered apostacy, apostacy doesn't stop you from being Jewish.

Deal with it.

Black american hoodlum culture today is a huge impediment to their advancement.

I would not (and cannot believe that any self-respecting company would) hire some babbling fool wearing clothes that didnt fit and women's jewelry.

Glorfying being a poor drug-addict or criminal is not how you find success in a civilized country.
I thought they glorified rich, drug pushing ganstas. You know, the criminals who get away with it.
Like politicians. :P


On the other hand, wasn't almost the exact same arguments used about heavy metal in the late 60's, early 70's?
What happened to the poor, defenseless youths who were corrupted by their
satanical message of murder, violence, drinks, easy women, drugs and disrespect for authority?

My god... Has the Beast triumphed?!

Is this supposed to mean anything in english?
yes

You missed that point that almost everyone in that room was liberal and he that speaker was a democrat, not a conservative.

Since when can't a Democrat be a conservative?

Did you miss people like Zell Miller and Joseph Leiberman? Both members of the Democratic Party, and both very, very conservative.

Is this supposed to mean anything in english?
Yes. It translates roughly as 'joke'. Or possibly 'irony'. The dialect he uses can have different meaning in the same expression.

No way. I've already talked about that throughout the whole thread.

No, you actually haven't. You haven't explained your logic once, just made unjustified generalizations based on anecdotal evidence.

Read it, he is no liberal...but he is a democrat and no conservative.

I know he's a Democrat. That doesn't mean he isn't a conservative.

John Kerry backed the War in Iraq..is he conservative?

No, John Kerry is a short-sighted opportunist.

No, John Kerry is a short-sighted opportunist.

Zing!

I thought they glorified rich, drug pushing ganstas. You know, the criminals who get away with it.
Like politicians. :P


On the other hand, wasn't almost the exact same arguments used about heavy metal in the late 60's, early 70's?
What happened to the poor, defenseless youths who were corrupted by their
satanical message of murder, violence, drinks, easy women, drugs and disrespect for authority?

My god... Has the Beast triumphed?!

"rich, drug-pushing gangsters" are slum-lords and criminals.

I think the great bulk of "metal heads" who took their music to heart occupy just about the same spot on the socio-economic totem pole today as their black counterparts.

"rich, drug-pushing gangsters" are slum-lords and criminals.

I think the great bulk of "metal heads" who took their music to heart occupy just about the same spot on the socio-economic totem pole today as their black counterparts.
Hmm, that's true. Politicians doesn't live in the slums.

Quite likely, at least for that generation.
However, metal heads today comes from very diverse social (and generetional) strata.

Is it possible that rap music won't end US as we know it?

While the problems in the ghettos are very real, rap music isn't the cause of them. It's an effect of them.
They in turn are an effect of a sub-standard spot in the social hierachy and can only be solved in four ways.

Dude..the name of the song is hustlin and he says hes into distribution of drugs he talks pushing cocaine...what song are you listening to??? Hustling is pushing/dealing/selling drugs..I explained that in my op.

Did you know that MANY FAMOUS MUSICIANS are into pushing, selling, taking, and dealing drugs? Both white and black musicians are guilty of the crime. It's not like it's something limited to just black rappers.

HORRORS!

Did you know that MANY FAMOUS MUSICIANS are into pushing, selling, taking, and dealing drugs? Both white and black musicians are guilty of the crime. It's not like it's something limited to just black rappers.

HORRORS!

You say it like its a bad thing.

Hmm, that's true. Politicians doesn't live in the slums.

Quite likely, at least for that generation.
However, metal heads today comes from very diverse social (and generetional) strata.

Is it possible that rap music won't end US as we know it?

While the problems in the ghettos are very real, rap music isn't the cause of them. It's an effect of them.
They in turn are an effect of a sub-standard spot in the social hierachy and can only be solved in four ways.

you see "sub"
i tell you if it is not race,it is klass:headbang:

You say it like its a bad thing.

Well, it ruined a lot of lives. I'm a jazz musician myself, and I hate how people like Coltrane, Bird, Bud Powell, and many other famous players never got a chance to have a full career because they got too heavy into drugs.

Every Genre of music is plauged by drugs, or so it seems.

Well, it ruined a lot of lives. I'm a jazz musician myself, and I hate how people like Coltrane, Bird, Bud Powell, and many other famous players never got a chance to have a full career because they got too heavy into drugs.

Every Genre of music is plauged by drugs, or so it seems.

Yeah, but it also made Paul McCarthney and John Lennon two of Histories greatest song writers.

I am a teacher, and I am a minority. I teach at a school that is about 55% White, 30% Black, 15% Hispanic and about 5% of other races.

I will say this: poor blacks as a whole have a completely different way of thinking than any other group I deal with. As a whole, they tend to blame me when their child fails more than any other group. As a whole, the children are more defiant than any other group. As a whole, they ridicule and discriminate against high-achieving blacks. As a whole, they glorify dumbasses like Terrell Owens for "keepin' it real" (which basically means, "act 'black' -- whatever the hell that means -- and don't act white, even if it means losing your job, etc... ya gotta keep it real!)

Black culture in America is really a self-defeating way of thinking, and continues the vicious cycle of poverty in America. If saying that makes me racist, then fine; I'm racist. I've even spoken to students of my opinion (privately, in appropriate situations), and when I explain it, not one has disagreed. I have not fully made my case, but I'd be glad to go further into it.

Hmm, that's true. Politicians doesn't live in the slums.

Quite likely, at least for that generation.
However, metal heads today comes from very diverse social (and generetional) strata.

Is it possible that rap music won't end US as we know it?

While the problems in the ghettos are very real, rap music isn't the cause of them. It's an effect of them.
They in turn are an effect of a sub-standard spot in the social hierachy and can only be solved in four ways.

&c. &c. &c.

A white person, even one born into a slum, need not turn on his TV and watch ICP paint-huffers and hicks - the white equivalent of black hoodlum culture.

Where a white kid can regularly see "his people" doing all sorts of productive, decent things, a black kid is more or less given over to the Black Entertainment Channel and all the degrading nonsense which it entails.

I think the whole generilization of acting black is stupid, because I'm a black girl and I don't quote unquote act balck. I love Infected Mushrooms((psychadelic), and Arctic Monkeys. So that whole acting black thing can be very crippling, because other kids embrace that idea, and me not acting like them causes me to be alienated, and have them say "Why are you acting so white?". Along with my different types music choice, I can't stand the hip hop music that's out right now, I think a lot of(not all of it mind you) is vulgar, for example I just heard a song that had the word booty in it upwards of 15 times(I stopped counting). It's not that I don't like rap music in general, because I love Tupac and Nas, they are two of my favorites. So with me and rap music it's basically say something meaningful.

you see "sub"
i tell you if it is not race,it is klass:headbang:
Black people aren't all in one class you fucking racist.

&c. &c. &c.

A white person, even one born into a slum, need not turn on his TV and watch ICP paint-huffers and hicks - the white equivalent of black hoodlum culture.

Where a white kid can regularly see "his people" doing all sorts of productive, decent things, a black kid is more or less given over to the Black Entertainment Channel and all the degrading nonsense which it entails.
Agreed. It's a more detailed version of what I meant when I said:
"If you feed people an image enough, it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy, from both sides of the image."

you see "sub"
i tell you if it is not race,it is klass:headbang:

Um, you lost me a bit here I'm afraid. Could you clarify your post please?

I think the whole generilization of acting black is stupid, because I'm a black girl and I don't quote unquote act balck. I love Infected Mushrooms((psychadelic), and Arctic Monkeys. So that whole acting black thing can be very crippling, because other kids embrace that idea, and me not acting like them causes me to be alienated, and have them say "Why are you acting so white?". Along with my different types music choice, I can't stand the hip hop music that's out right now, I think a lot of(not all of it mind you) is vulgar, for example I just heard a song that had the word booty in it upwards of 15 times(I stopped counting). It's not that I don't like rap music in general, because I love Tupac and Nas, they are two of my favorites. So with me and rap music it's basically say something meaningful.
Yay! Infected Mushroom!

Converting Vegetarians is great! :D

I am a teacher, and I am a minority. I teach at a school that is about 55% White, 30% Black, 15% Hispanic and about 5% of other races.

I will say this: poor blacks as a whole have a completely different way of thinking than any other group I deal with. As a whole, they tend to blame me when their child fails more than any other group. As a whole, the children are more defiant than any other group. As a whole, they ridicule and discriminate against high-achieving blacks. As a whole, they glorify dumbasses like Terrell Owens for "keepin' it real" (which basically means, "act 'black' -- whatever the hell that means -- and don't act white, even if it means losing your job, etc... ya gotta keep it real!)

Black culture in America is really a self-defeating way of thinking, and continues the vicious cycle of poverty in America. If saying that makes me racist, then fine; I'm racist. I've even spoken to students of my opinion (privately, in appropriate situations), and when I explain it, not one has disagreed. I have not fully made my case, but I'd be glad to go further into it.

it is a more a proof of a system you support,and doesn't work, than anything else.
no you are not rascist,it is just not working so make your choice(baiting)

I am a teacher, and I am a minority. I teach at a school that is about 55% White, 30% Black, 15% Hispanic and about 5% of other races.

I will say this: poor blacks as a whole have a completely different way of thinking than any other group I deal with. As a whole, they tend to blame me when their child fails more than any other group. As a whole, the children are more defiant than any other group. As a whole, they ridicule and discriminate against high-achieving blacks. As a whole, they glorify dumbasses like Terrell Owens for "keepin' it real" (which basically means, "act 'black' -- whatever the hell that means -- and don't act white, even if it means losing your job, etc... ya gotta keep it real!)

Black culture in America is really a self-defeating way of thinking, and continues the vicious cycle of poverty in America. If saying that makes me racist, then fine; I'm racist. I've even spoken to students of my opinion (privately, in appropriate situations), and when I explain it, not one has disagreed. I have not fully made my case, but I'd be glad to go further into it.
No, see, that's not racist. That is correct, definitive, and specific. As opposed to the OP that asserted that "hip hop" culture is "black" culture and that all black people are like that.

i mean if the will to be superior by race does come in social darwinism then you have it....
long live prozac....
people do need a kick in the butt

Yeah, but it also made Paul McCarthney and John Lennon two of Histories greatest song writers.

McCarthney and Lennon are two of Histories greatest song writers my ass. As far as the music goes, the songs the Beatles and John Lennon wrote are for simpletons-I could write better. (Don't ask me to write lyrics, though.) The only reason why they were successful are becuase they are catchy.

The vast majority of famous Jazz composers wrote music that is far superious to McCarthney's and Lennon's musicially.

Personally, I have a problem with anyone glorifying violence, drug abuse, and racism while degrading women. I don't care what color your skin is.

It would also make sense that anyone who immerses themself in the idea that they are helpless and unable to succeed because of something like skin color would come to believe it. This is particularly true in children who have not learned to value things like hard work, honesty, and love. Not that those things will always take someone far in life, but they do tend to be helpful.

I think the whole generilization of acting black is stupid, because I'm a black girl and I don't quote unquote act balck. I love Infected Mushrooms, (psychadelic), and Arctic Monkeys. So that whole acting black thing can be very crippling, because other kids embrace that idea, and me not acting like them causes me to be alienated, and have them say "Why are you acting so white?".

Exactly what I'm talking about... it breaks my heart, because people are ridiculed if they don't put on a big show, trying to convince everyone they're a thug. It's self-defeating.

Personally, I have a problem with anyone glorifying violence, drug abuse, and racism while degrading women. I don't care what color your skin is.

It would also make sense that anyone who immerses themself in the idea that they are helpless and unable to succeed because of something like skin color would come to believe it. This is particularly true in children who have not learned to value things like hard work, honesty, and love. Not that those things will always take someone far in life, but they do tend to be helpful.
Who created the image of poor blacks as helpless and unable to succeed?

Did it grow into being progressively, or deliberately, and how could it be formed in the first place when there is no equivalent for the other ethnic groups?

I still think it's a lot about classes, but I'll concede this point as accurate indeed. Sadly.
US looses a lot of potential because of it.

it is a more a proof of a system you support,and doesn't work, than anything else.
no you are not rascist,it is just not working so make your choice(baiting)

I'm not sure what you mean. If you want to win the game, you've got to play the game. To poor blacks, playing the game is "Giving in to The Man" and a failure to "keep it real".

The game isn't perfect; the system I live in isn't perfect. But it's what we've got, and we're not going to change it by being defiant to our bosses or blowing off police officers.

What is "Black"? What is "Black culture"? Lets not make such generalizations.

I still think it's a lot about classes,.
Agree,only some of them are more equal than others.:p

Who created the image of poor blacks as helpless and unable to succeed?

Did it grow into being progressively, or deliberately, and how could it be formed in the first place when there is no equivalent for the other ethnic groups?

I still think it's a lot about classes, but I'll concede this point as accurate indeed. Sadly.
US looses a lot of potential because of it.

Nobody created it, it's more of an ideal based out of the creation of the slave trade in the 1800's. Sadly a lot of things haven't changed in the USA, and with the materialistic capitalism some of the major corporations bring in with clothing and music and brand it as the "right thing to do" in society, the youth don't argue.

It's popular, so it must right.

Personally, I think it's more of the way education is taught, yes it's good, but even in England the ciriculum is not the most inspiring - for example in R.E., What should happen is getting taught is the theory of religion and faith, and of equality. Instead there are more simple facts and history topics being given, and some of the kids don't listen to this. If open participation in class on debates or even roleplaying as governments, it could happen. Plus, philosophy should be taught at an earlier age I think - it *might* not work in achieving a more open-minded generation, but there is every chance it could do, and making for a much happier generation once it is their turn to run the world's governments.

The importance of human life should be taught to younger children, before corrupt capitalist corporations can start feeding advertising propaganda to them. If anyone saw Super Size Me, they show how McDonalds was so successful at this.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you want to win the game, you've got to play the game. To poor blacks, playing the game is "Giving in to The Man" and a failure to "keep it real".

The game isn't perfect; the system I live in isn't perfect. But it's what we've got, and we're not going to change it by being defiant to our bosses or blowing off police officers.

and whinning on internet is better?

and whinning on internet is better?
No, but it's a safe place to vent.

He wasn't whining though. She advocated to go against the stereotypical image instead of falling into it.

Edit: Sorry, Dolfinsafia. I have a bad habit of answering for other people even when they are capable of doing so themselves.

Who created the image of poor blacks as helpless and unable to succeed?

Did it grow into being progressively, or deliberately, and how could it be formed in the first place when there is no equivalent for the other ethnic groups?

I still think it's a lot about classes, but I'll concede this point as accurate indeed. Sadly.
US looses a lot of potential because of it.

I wouldn't be too hard on the US about that. Poor black culture is a strong subculture. The subculture's mindset is self-defeating. It relfects a lack of personal responsibility. It encourages individualism at the expense of respecting authority. The mindset causes them to look at their place in life, how they are at a disadvantage, and rather than trying to pull themselves out of the situation, they blame society.

I will simply say this: if you are poor and want to leave the streets, you can get out if you have ambition.

Pell Grants from the federal government will allow a poor individual to go to a public university absolutely free (and you don't even have to be that poor -- my dad made about $30,000/year and I still got it). They can work their way through college, or go on welfare if need be. Where there's a will there's a way. Unfortunately, in this group, they're all too often not taught how to become a productive member of society.

What is "Black"? What is "Black culture"? Lets not make such generalizations.

Why not? Judge the generalization and judge if it's true or false.

And by the way, I'm a guy, not a woman ;)

When I was growing I used to try and act how my friends acted and tried to personify what being black is. But as I got older and went into homeschool for two years I discovered .WOW, there is so much more out there, and being in homeschool allowed me to grow up without being influenced by others, and to be conformed to what their ideas of what being black is. That allowed me to explore more than rap music, and how I dressed, and how I talked, so definitely I was cornered by other kids as being an "oreo" or "trying to act white", and not knowing who I am. And being very smart, and a total bookworm, didn't help me much at all, unless they wanted to cheat off me.

Anyway, while most rap flaunts the things I'm talking about, I have a video which does it without breaking stride.Hustlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1o6YrnBb4&search=rick%20ross%20hustlin)
I don't think that's glorifying poverty right there...

Anyways, first up I'll confess that I like rap music. Not the mainstream stuff, but more "underground" things from anywhere on the planet, from London over Senegal to Los Angeles. 'People under the Stairs' for example are great.

I disagree that this has much to do with black culture. Black culture might as well be rastafarianism - there are as many black cultures as there are white cultures. What you mean is urban youth culture at the moment, and that is hardly confined to black people in the States. Believe me, you can find it in Hamburg and you can find it in Brisbane. You don't even have to look for long.

The reason this culture focusses so heavily on drugs and crime is because that is the climate that created it. I don't think it does nearly as much to reinforce crime as the conditions in these areas do.

And finally, criticising youth-culture is hardly a new thing either. I believe many bad things were said about grunge, about the hippies and about rock'n'roll. And it seems like everyone survived it yet.

Nobody created it, it's more of an ideal based out of the creation of the slave trade in the 1800's.
Ah, I see. This was what I meant with my 'developed prgoressively' comment.
My sentence was poorly formulated though.

Sadly a lot of things haven't changed in the USA, and with the materialistic capitalism some of the major corporations bring in with clothing and music and brand it as the "right thing to do" in society, the youth don't argue.

It's popular, so it must right.
*makes a disgusted noise*
Tell me about it. I see the same here, all too often. Not in any ethnic group as such, but with youths in general.

Personally, I think it's more of the way education is taught, yes it's good, but even in England the ciriculum is not the most inspiring - for example in R.E., What should happen is getting taught is the theory of religion and faith, and of equality. Instead there are more simple facts and history topics being given, and some of the kids don't listen to this. If open participation in class on debates or even roleplaying as governments, it could happen. Plus, philosophy should be taught at an earlier age I think - it *might* not work in achieving a more open-minded generation, but there is every chance it could do, and making for a much happier generation once it is their turn to run the world's governments.

The importance of human life should be taught to younger children, before corrupt capitalist corporations can start feeding advertising propaganda to them.
Hear hear! I'm sure it wouldn't solve all th problems, but I do agree it should be implemented. There's a lot to gain by it.

Which means what, precisely? That they're as ignorant as Atlantian Isles?,

Rap/Hip Hop is dominated by blacks. Although not all blacks listen/write this sort of music, they dominate it. And it doesnt go just for USA. There are black french rappers, or australian or etc...Calling Rap/Hip Hop "black culture" or at least "American Black Culture" is correct in this sense. So why do people (including you) throw ignorancy accusations around? It's rather pathetic...
Some people have raised whites consume this and hence it isnt a black culture. This thinking is rather silly. Is pre 20th century classical music not european culture because others listen? Is Chineese food not chineese culture because lots of others consume it?
Many people here like to argue against comon sense, instead of arguing the real issue. Somethings are clear. I dont know whether you(not neccessarily you soheran) are too young or too stupid or too blind to see it but Atlantian Isles point was clear and valid...

I wouldn't be too hard on the US about that. Poor black culture is a strong subculture. The subculture's mindset is self-defeating. It relfects a lack of personal responsibility. It encourages individualism at the expense of respecting authority. The mindset causes them to look at their place in life, how they are at a disadvantage, and rather than trying to pull themselves out of the situation, they blame society.
Yes... I see the same here.
One of the worst betrayals media and those in power do to the kids.
They should be taught that you can do anything. Not easily, the opposite in fact, but still.

Pell Grants from the federal government will allow a poor individual to go to a public university absolutely free (and you don't even have to be that poor -- my dad made about $30,000/year and I still got it). They can work their way through college, or go on welfare if need be. Where there's a will there's a way.
There are some similar systems in my country too.
It's very human how the same people that betray the kids, also try their best to help them.

Ignorance is not reality, no matter how much you desperately want it to be, and if you claim not to be ignorant, you should not use the ignorance of others to back yourself up.

Is there an Asian community?

In the minds of people who can't tell the difference, for sure.

Poor Africa, poor blacks of the Carribean, of South America...labelled by the ignorant people who think that 'black culture' is defined by a few black media moguls in the US.

Why is it so hard for you to understand/comprehend? Black culture isnt defined by hip hop/rap/etc...but hop/rap/etc are defined by black culture.
He might have made a thread named "Questioning American Culture" and then asked us what is wrong with the savage capitalist system. It'd be valid. So is this thread. Stop arguing against gravity...

No, but it's a safe place to vent.

She wasn't whining though. She advocated to go against the stereotypical image instead of falling into it.

Edit: Sorry, Dolfinsafia. I have a bad habit of answering for other people even when they are capable of doing so themselves.

No problem! Thanks for watching my back though ;)

To Allers, I'm not really whining, just discussing and trying to explain my perspective to people who don't live in the U.S. I obviously have a strong opinion about this. The strong opinion, funny enough, was solidified by two things:

1. Teaching in a diverse school.

2. The situation this year between Terrell Owens and Donovan McNabb.

To those of you who are not U.S. sports fans, Terrell Owens is a black American Football player who blasted his quarterback, Donovan McNabb, and told his coach "Don't tell me what to do, you're not my father." He basically made a complete fool of himself and was demonized by everyone in the media.

Donovan McNabb, who is also black, never really did anything wrong to Owens. He is seen as very classy, very intelligent, and very marketable -- he's on TV commercials in the US all over the place. He refused to say anything negative in public about Terrell Owens in return.

Again, mainstream culture demonized Owens, and sympathized heavily with McNabb.

My black students, almost to a person, sympathized with Owens, because he "kept it real". They said McNabb was too "clean-cut" and too "corporate". I was floored, and gave those students a quick lesson on life:

* You can't blast your co-workers in public just because you feel like it.

* Your boss can tell you what to do even if he's not your dad.

* If you make an ass of yourself in order to "keep it real," someone will quickly boot that ass out the door.

I didn't use exactly those words ;) but man, I could not believe the viewpoint they had.

I have had more substance in my posts than yourself. You are simply playing silly word games and not even debating. Americans know the US is not the world, you feel the need to say that just because something happens in the US, that it isn't always like that elsewhere. That is simply pointing out the obvious. Different nations/peoples have different ways of life. Also, we are talking about black US steryo-types, because most of us have not been to Africa, Southern India, or the Outback, and those area's have little affect on our way of life. Therefore, we do not feel the need to comment about them.

These people need those silly word games to include "diversity" in their sentences...You'll find it comon in NSG.

it is late,i'll try my best
if you don't do anything but complaining,how is it going to change,you sound like you have no choice....
How can?
because the system is not perfect?
so?
Why is that?
What can you do?

and yes you could say:
"nothing! everything has been try,it can be worse."
goodnight

<snip>

The source is the white public who buy it, the business which finds the ideas of black people conforming to an a-political stereotype easy to market to same, and the urge to make money from the combination of the two by the artists in question.

<snip>


That's not the source. That's the output, audience, etc...Are Persian carpets not Persian because others buy it? The fact that many westerners buy persian carpets, make those carpets western? Please, dont spam with such mindless chatter.

,Rap/Hip Hop is dominated by blacks. Although not all blacks listen/write this sort of music, they dominate it. And it doesnt go just for USA. There are black french rappers, or australian or etc...Calling Rap/Hip Hop "black culture" or at least "American Black Culture" is correct in this sense. So why do people (including you) throw ignorancy accusations around? It's rather pathetic...

Because your assertion that "rap/hip hop is dominated by blacks" does not lead to the conclusion that rap/hip hop is "black culture."

There is no such thing as "black culture."

I really don't care who's singing about it (black guy, white guy) or how they're doing it (metal, pop, rap) but anyone who sings about selling drugs and shooting people for stupid reasons is a fucking moron, and anyone who listens to them for no reason other than to fit in with everyone else who's stupidly doing it is even worse.

That being said, anyone that limits their personality to be so shallow as to be defined by "bitches, hoes, and gats" is incredibly unworthy of the status "celebrity" and should therefore make no money whatsoever.

I've seen:

Black goths, black trannies, black punks, black preppies, black jocks, black headbangers, black stoners, black skaters etc, etc, etc...

See, you don't see, because you aren't actually looking for something that might disrupt your worldview.

I'm sure there are many iranian homosexuals. That doesnt change the fact that Iran is homophobic....

Because your assertion that "rap/hip hop is dominated by blacks" does not lead to the conclusion that rap/hip hop is "black culture."

There is no such thing as "black culture."

There's no such thing as muslim culture or german culture, either, but they stand out pretty well for things that don't exist.

(German culture being the insane rave scene and such that comes with it)

No problem! Thanks for watching my back though ;)

To Allers, I'm not really whining, just discussing and trying to explain my perspective to people who don't live in the U.S. I obviously have a strong opinion about this. The strong opinion, funny enough, was solidified by two things:

1. Teaching in a diverse school.

2. The situation this year between Terrell Owens and Donovan McNabb.

To those of you who are not U.S. sports fans, Terrell Owens is a black American Football player who blasted his quarterback, Donovan McNabb, and told his coach "Don't tell me what to do, you're not my father." He basically made a complete fool of himself and was demonized by everyone in the media.

Donovan McNabb, who is also black, never really did anything wrong to Owens. He is seen as very classy, very intelligent, and very marketable -- he's on TV commercials in the US all over the place. He refused to say anything negative in public about Terrell Owens in return.

Again, mainstream culture demonized Owens, and sympathized heavily with McNabb.

My black students, almost to a person, sympathized with Owens, because he "kept it real". They said McNabb was too "clean-cut" and too "corporate". I was floored, and gave those students a quick lesson on life:

* You can't blast your co-workers in public just because you feel like it.

* Your boss can tell you what to do even if he's not your dad.

* If you make an ass of yourself in order to "keep it real," someone will quickly boot that ass out the door.

I didn't use exactly those words ;) but man, I could not believe the viewpoint they had.
Oops. Mixed you up with Crinada on page 28, that's why I mistook you for a she.

Hmm. That's a very interesting example. And situation.
Sad too in a way.

Glad those kids have a good teacher though. Keep up the good work.

Because your assertion that "rap/hip hop is dominated by blacks" does not lead to the conclusion that rap/hip hop is "black culture."

There is no such thing as "black culture."

There is American Black Culture. Considering Atlantic Isles' location and his OP and comon sense, American Black Culture can be induced to Black Culture during this thread. I think everyone can undestand these, and what is being discussed. Stop the stupid word games and unneccessary disection of the argument where we debate terminology even though all of us understand what is being asked.
"rap/hip hop is black culture" Maybe this isnt correct way of putting it, but it's still correct, since rap/hip hop is part of black culture. Again, Stop silly word games. For further ex:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11210324&postcount=436

I'm sure there are many iranian homosexuals. That doesnt change the fact that Iran is homophobic....
Persuasive argument Nordland, but not entirely correct.
Iran has an official policy about homosexuals, rooted in homophobia and religious traditions.
However, this doesn't make all iranians homophobes.
Though those that are not probably has to keep a anti-gay attitude officially/in public.

Be careful to use blanket statement to characterize a whole group.
Even when it is supported by statistics, and clear to see even without statistics, it still won't be an accurate/complete picture.

There is American Black Culture. Considering Atlantic Isles' location and his OP and comon sense, American Black Culture can be induced to Black Culture during this thread.

I was talking about US "black culture," for what it's worth. It doesn't exist either.

There is American Black Culture. Considering Atlantic Isles' location and his OP and comon sense, American Black Culture can be induced to Black Culture during this thread. I think everyone can undestand these, and what is being discussed. Stop the stupid word games and unneccessary disection of the argument where we debate terminology even though all of us understand what is being asked.
"rap/hip hop is black culture" Maybe this isnt correct way of putting it, but it's still correct, since rap/hip hop is part of black culture. Again, Stop silly word games. For further ex:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11210324&postcount=436
While a fair number of posters enjoy marking words, there nontheless is a very good reason to state your opinions as specifically as possible.

If the subject being discussed is unclear, then there will be slightly (or wildly) different interpretations on what is being talked about. This will lead to misinterpreting what others say, and miscomunication is fatal to holding a constructive discussion.

Why is it so hard for you to understand/comprehend? Black culture isnt defined by hip hop/rap/etc...but hop/rap/etc are defined by black culture.
He might have made a thread named "Questioning American Culture" and then asked us what is wrong with the savage capitalist system. It'd be valid. So is this thread. Stop arguing against gravity...
My Nordland comes in to spin it a little more...

Silly, silly Americans... Arguing about black culture, et cetera. I'm going to down some maple syrup and drag my socialistic arse down to Vancouver General Hospital and get my free healthcare even though I evade the tax man by buying goods from the Chinese night market. What are black people anyway? I've never seen one north of the 49th parallel.

I was talking about US "black culture," for what it's worth. It doesn't exist either.

Sure. You can say anything. You can say yourself doesnt exist as well. Or gravity doesnt exist.
Quick simple question. If there are no black US culture, why does blacks have different accents? Accent -> Language -> Culture, no?

To quote wiki


African American culture is both part of, and distinct from American culture. From their earliest presence in North America, Africans and African Americans have contributed literature, art, agricultural skills, foods, clothing styles, music, and language to American culture.


How old are you Soheran btw???

These people need those silly word games to include "diversity" in their sentences...You'll find it comon in NSG.
You'll also find pithy arguments lacking any sort of substance coming from those of you who bleat the same sentences over and over again, refusing completely to actually address the many rebuttals to your narrow, biased, opinions that you constantly try to pass off as the truth.

Ah. The "black culture" thing again. A few thoughts.

1. What we call Black culture is not homogenuous by any stretch of the imagination. It has its own subsets, a generation gap, and various dialects and cultural traditions within it. What the OP is referring to is actually a fairly recent development in black culture, and that's the ghetto subculture that has made itself into the dominant culture for black youth.

2. The ghetto subculture and its representatives (that word being used for a reason) in popular music understandably try to validate and perpetuate their culture just like folks of any culture do. I've noticed a recent trend towards "preserving" the "white culture", which is a great example of one way a culture can perpetuate itself. In the ghetto subculture they make it socially acceptable and even necessary to be a gangsta/hood rat etc and participate in the noms associated with those roles through music, reinforcing the expected behaviors by labeling those who don't participate in them and by labeling those who aren't seen as qualified to participate in them by the dominant group. Pretty normal methods of cultural perpetuation, really.

3. Like any other culture, the ghetto subculture has its good points and bad points. It's empowering for many people, promotes physical fitness in many cases, has popularized an amazingly flexible and skillful art form in rap and hip-hop, provided for economic growth in certain sectors, etc. It also has a lot of unhealthy elements, including drug abuse, criminal activity, the degradation of women, promoting violence as a means of resolving conflict, etc.

4. On a personal level, I'm pretty ambivalent about the ghetto subculture. I did grow up in a "black" neighborhood and there's a part of me that has a strong attachment to the culture because of that. I also recognize that it has its good points. But there's so much that's unhealthy about it too, so much that's destructive and disenfranchising. I feel at home on the same streets where kids get their heads blown off, and I can't help but feel a strong sense of bitterness and sadness at the injustice present in the place I feel at home.

That's not the source. That's the output, audience, etc...Are Persian carpets not Persian because others buy it? The fact that many westerners buy persian carpets, make those carpets western? Please, dont spam with such mindless chatter.
What is mindless is your obstinant refusal to accept that white people just looooove that gansta rap, and because of them, gansta rap has developed a mainstream acceptibility. So when you blame the 'source' and completely ignore the fact that the 'audience' is the one with the real power to affect what stereotypes are portrayed by that source, you are...how did you put it? Arguing against gravity. If white, middle-classed boys didn't love the juicy, forbidden, misogynist lyrics of rappers, there would be no real market, the genre would shrink, go underground, and not be a source for this ridiculous discussion which claims that all 'blacks' are represented by this kind of music.

While a fair number of posters enjoy marking words, there nontheless is a very good reason to state your opinions as specifically as possible.

If the subject being discussed is unclear, then there will be slightly (or wildly) different interpretations on what is being talked about. This will lead to misinterpreting what others say, and miscomunication is fatal to holding a constructive discussion.

We all know what rap is. When you read the OP, it's clear what the OP wants discussed. I dont know if people feel smart when they question obvious stuff, but I strongly disagree. The posts I've read in this thread remind me:

a: I'm human. Let's discuss humans

b: You arent human! You got other elements as well. We cant generilize you as human because you also got, for example iron in you. So we cant say your skin is soft, because iron is hard. Accept diversity, fight with generalisations, Long Live The Studipity!

There is American Black Culture. Considering Atlantic Isles' location and his OP and comon sense, American Black Culture can be induced to Black Culture during this thread. I think everyone can undestand these, and what is being discussed. Stop the stupid word games and unneccessary disection of the argument where we debate terminology even though all of us understand what is being asked.
"rap/hip hop is black culture" Maybe this isnt correct way of putting it, but it's still correct, since rap/hip hop is part of black culture. Again, Stop silly word games. For further ex:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11210324&postcount=436
We've already gone over this too...THERE IS NO BLACK CULTURE SINGULAR. You don't even actually have to leave the US to see examples of many communities, many cultures, and many black people who are NOT represented by gansta rap. We don't even really need to bring in Africa, or the Carribean, or elsewhere. There is no homogonous black culture in the US...just as there is not homogonous 'white' culture in the US. That you erroneously and ignorantly presume to claim otherwise, is simply your perception, and has also been pointed out...perception, while powerful, especially among the willfully ignorant...is nonetheless not reality.

What is mindless is your obstinant refusal to accept that white people just looooove that gansta rap, and because of them, gansta rap has developed a mainstream acceptibility. So when you blame the 'source' and completely ignore the fact that the 'audience' is the one with the real power to affect what stereotypes are portrayed by that source, you are...how did you put it? Arguing against gravity. If white, middle-classed boys didn't love the juicy, forbidden, misogynist lyrics of rappers, there would be no real market, the genre would shrink, go underground, and not be a source for this ridiculous discussion which claims that all 'blacks' are represented by this kind of music.

If you will carry on this mindless chatter, I will simply ignore you.
Chineese food is mainstream in USA because americans love it. Does it make chineese food any less chineese? Does it make Chicken with Orange Sauce American??? COME ON!!!!

Sure. You can say anything. You can say yourself doesnt exist as well. Or gravity doesnt exist.
Quick simple question. If there are no black US culture, why does blacks have different accents? Accent -> Language -> Culture, no?

To quote wiki

Quote:
African American culture is both part of, and distinct from American culture. From their earliest presence in North America, Africans and African Americans have contributed literature, art, agricultural skills, foods, clothing styles, music, and language to American culture.
Rap however, while including parts of 'African American culture', to use wiki's term, is not based only on that culture.

Stating that it does is an inaccurate statement, and is therefore harmful to a constructive discussion.
Without a basis including a larger context, a statement about such a sub-culture loses its validity.

Sure. You can say anything. You can say yourself doesnt exist as well. Or gravity doesnt exist.
Quick simple question. If there are no black US culture, why does blacks have different accents? Accent -> Language -> Culture, no? Wait...an ACCENT denotes a culture to you? Wow...so people with lisps...they have their own homogenous culture? Look, you can claim to be the person who defines what culture is, but that doesn't make it true. The definition of culture alone is hotly debated. There is no black US culture...there may be many different cultures...but to just harp on accents? Seriously...what are you selling?



How old are you Soheran btw???
As usual, when you have nothing to say, you bring in irrelevant details in an attempt to justify your common habit of simply dismissing what anyone by your little group of sychophants say. Soheran's age...my ethnicity...so on and so forth. Your arguments are no less idiotic, and shoddily (if at all) backed up, regardless of the answers to those pointless questions.

We've already gone over this too...THERE IS NO BLACK CULTURE SINGULAR. You don't even actually have to leave the US to see examples of many communities, many cultures, and many black people who are NOT represented by gansta rap. We don't even really need to bring in Africa, or the Carribean, or elsewhere. There is no homogonous black culture in the US...just as there is not homogonous 'white' culture in the US. That you erroneously and ignorantly presume to claim otherwise, is simply your perception, and has also been pointed out...perception, while powerful, especially among the willfully ignorant...is nonetheless not reality.

We say sky is blue when in fact it isnt always blue. But people get it. Blacks doesnt have to 100% homogenous to form a black US culture. There is a Western Culture. Does it mean 100% Homogeniaty in the West? Of course not. But there is still a Western Culture.
You are simply arguing against comon sense and gravity. The amusing part is you throw accusations in the process....:rolleyes:

Wait...an ACCENT denotes a culture to you? Wow...so people with lisps...they have their own homogenous culture? Look, you can claim to be the person who defines what culture is, but that doesn't make it true. The definition of culture alone is hotly debated. There is no black US culture...there may be many different cultures...but to just harp on accents? Seriously...what are you selling?


As usual, when you have nothing to say, you bring in irrelevant details in an attempt to justify your common habit of simply dismissing what anyone by your little group of sychophants say. Soheran's age...my ethnicity...so on and so forth. Your arguments are no less idiotic, and shoddily (if at all) backed up, regardless of the answers to those pointless questions.


Trained linguistics calling fowl here.

Black american vernacular english is not an "accent," it is a dialect.

A lisp is more of an 'accent,' through the term isnt used altogether correctly here either.
Dialect corrolates with 'culture' to a pretty strong degree, "accent" doesnt.

If you will carry on this mindless chatter, I will simply ignore you.
Chineese food is mainstream in USA because americans love it. Does it make chineese food any less chineese? Actually, yes, it does make it less Chinese. Chinese food, generally consumed by mainstream USA and Canada bears almost no resemblance to traditional Chinese food. In fact, many of the 'Asian' foods so loved by the mainstream were invented by white cooks during the 70s to push a 'tropical' theme to restaurants. So while the mainstream person of the USA or Canada may gorge on obscene amounts of 'Chinese food' in a year, they have most likely never actually eaten a traditional Chinese meal. Does it make Chicken with Orange Sauce American??? COME ON!!!!Pretty much (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Chinese_cuisine).

Persuasive argument Nordland, but not entirely correct.
Iran has an official policy about homosexuals, rooted in homophobia and religious traditions.
However, this doesn't make all iranians homophobes.
Though those that are not probably has to keep a anti-gay attitude officially/in public.

Be careful to use blanket statement to characterize a whole group.
Even when it is supported by statistics, and clear to see even without statistics, it still won't be an accurate/complete picture.

I know blanket statements arent 100% true but what is? All of our major undestanding of life via science is based on theories. There are exceptions to anything.

Trained linguistics calling fowl here.

Black vernacular english is not an "accent," it is a dialect.

Dialect corrolates with 'culture' to a pretty strong degree, "accent" doesnt.
Well and if it DID, he'd have shot his own lame argument in the foot...since you have many black people in the US, but no single 'black accent'. They sound a lot different in Houston than they do in Miami...so every single one of those 'accents' would denote a 'different culture'. What a silly way to define culture. My kids have a different accent than me. We must be parts of different cultures:rolleyes:

We all know what rap is. When you read the OP, it's clear what the OP wants discussed. I dont know if people feel smart when they question obvious stuff, but I strongly disagree. The posts I've read in this thread remind me:

a: I'm human. Let's discuss humans

b: You arent human! You got other elements as well. We cant generilize you as human because you also got, for example iron in you. So we cant say your skin is soft, because iron is hard. Accept diversity, fight with generalisations, Long Live The Studipity!
Indeed?


They remind me of:

1: Norwegians like to go hiking in the mountains. Why? Discuss!

2: You can't say all norwegians are like that. It's popular, and a love of nature is a big part of their culture, but that doesn't mean all of them likes to go hiking.

Rap however, while including parts of 'African American culture', to use wiki's term, is not based only on that culture.

Stating that it does is an inaccurate statement, and is therefore harmful to a constructive discussion.
Without a basis including a larger context, a statement about such a sub-culture loses its validity.

Painters got inspiration from tropical islands. Does that mean impressionism not part of european culture??

Actually, yes, it does make it less Chinese. Chinese food, generally consumed by mainstream USA and Canada bears almost no resemblance to traditional Chinese food. In fact, many of the 'Asian' foods so loved by the mainstream were invented by white cooks during the 70s to push a 'tropical' theme to restaurants. So while the mainstream person of the USA or Canada may gorge on obscene amounts of 'Chinese food' in a year, they have most likely never actually eaten a traditional Chinese meal. Pretty much.


Well, americans like real chinese food quite a bit too, dim sum for example.

Sinuhue, I think that what the OP meant by "questioning black culture" is whether or not it's considered acceptable to question any aspect of any black culture (in America, for instance, in all its forms). There are common problems - extremely high rates of murder, high rates of incarceration, high rates of drug use, etc... and so people are wanting to know, is it OK to discuss these problems as having some root or basis in the way that these same statistical groups raise their children, etc.

The problem the OP poses is not whether or not we should ask those questions, for to find possible answers we must ask them.

The question is, why is it forbidden to even ask the questions? If even a black man like Morgan Freeman or Bill Cosby asks the questions, they are IMMEDIATELY labeled as racists. Then we are told that the ONLY reason that these problems exist is "white people".

It's been a long time since the Civil War, and a long time since the Civil Rights era. And despite accusations to the contrary, there's been a lot of progress over the years - and yet there are still major problems in many sectors of "black America". I believe it's foolish and stupid to keep "blaming it on whitey".

Other ethnic groups, like the Hispanics in my area, and most of the Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean (my group), and other Orientals, despite "discrimination" have made successes of themselves - statistically less likely to commit crimes than blacks, statistically more likely to go to college and finish, etc. So I don't buy the argument that we should never look at the group in question. I believe we should ask the hard questions about what it would take to fix their problems, for if we are all supposed to help our fellow man, closing our eyes and lying about the causes would be a great injustice.

Of course, saying that makes me a racist, or a pawn of "whitey".

Painters got inspiration from tropical islands. Does that mean impressionism not part of european culture??
No, but painters got inspirations from more places than tropical islands, and impressionism isn't the only style of painting. Nor is it the only style asociated with european culture.

Well, americans like real chinese food quite a bit too, dim sum for example.
Yes, it is finally becoming more common to find more authentic Chinese food, along with Vietnamese, Korean foods, etc...and I think a large part of that is the increased numbers of people from those nations who aren't about to buy into the Western Asian food that still gets passed off in many restaurants. But chicken balls, deep fried shrimp, and other 'Western Chinese' mainstays are still more 'mainstream' than authentic chinese foods among non-asians.

Sinuhue, I think that what the OP meant by "questioning black culture" is whether or not it's considered acceptable to question any aspect of any black culture (in America, for instance, in all its forms). There are common problems - extremely high rates of murder, high rates of incarceration, high rates of drug use, etc... and so people are wanting to know, is it OK to discuss these problems as having some root or basis in the way that these same statistical groups raise their children, etc. That's a nice way to spin it, DK, but the OP, and the original poster himself do not support this theory of the first post. Your take on it would be a much more worthy topic of discussion, but you give the OP entirely too much credit. He focused specifically on rap as an expression of 'black culture' and completely avoided these deeper topics you've mentioned.

For reference's sake, I would like to point y'all to Changes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=856hAe7vjmM&search=Tupac%20Changes) by Tupac. In the lyrics he discusses some of the problems endemic to the ghetto from the perspective of someone who lived there.

Indeed?


They remind me of:

1: Norwegians like to go hiking in the mountains. Why? Discuss!

2: You can't say all norwegians are like that. It's popular, and a love of nature is a big part of their culture, but that doesn't mean all of them likes to go hiking.

Isnt this obvious? We can argue about #1 without needing to state #2. We dont need to declare every obvious thing b4 any discussions....It reminds me this:

1: lets discuss bla bla
2: Dont forget to click quote or reply

Yes, it is finally becoming more common to find more authentic Chinese food, along with Vietnamese, Korean foods, etc...and I think a large part of that is the increased numbers of people from those nations who aren't about to buy into the Western Asian food that still gets passed off in many restaurants. But chicken balls, deep fried shrimp, and other 'Western Chinese' mainstays are still more 'mainstream' than authentic chinese foods among non-asians.
If it's a Chinese restaurant, and the menu is primarily in English, and the place isn't full of Chinese patrons speaking Chinese, it's probably crap.

Sure. You can say anything.

Indeed, I can.

You can say yourself doesnt exist as well.

I'm still debating that.

Or gravity doesnt exist.

It doesn't. The Giant Spaghetti Monster engages in intelligent dropping.

Quick simple question. If there are no black US culture, why does blacks have different accents? Accent -> Language -> Culture, no?

Um, actually, there is no universal "black accent."

To quote wiki

There is still no "black culture." There may be "black cultures," that is, cultures or subcultures composed largely of black people, but that is a separate argument from the one you and Atlantian Islands are advancing.

How old are you Soheran btw???

Fifteen months.

That's a nice way to spin it, DK, but the OP, and the original poster himself do not support this theory of the first post. Your take on it would be a much more worthy topic of discussion, but you give the OP entirely too much credit. He focused specifically on rap as an expression of 'black culture' and completely avoided these deeper topics you've mentioned.
Then we should discuss the more worthy topic.

Well and if it DID, he'd have shot his own lame argument in the foot...since you have many black people in the US, but no single 'black accent'. They sound a lot different in Houston than they do in Miami...so every single one of those 'accents' would denote a 'different culture'. What a silly way to define culture. My kids have a different accent than me. We must be parts of different cultures:rolleyes:


This isnt quite as you make it out to be, but linguistics is pretty esoteric stuff. Don't get so hooked up on "accents."

Black English Vernacular (aka AAVE) is uniform to a pretty impressive degree throughout the south and parts of other regions, and is sometimes spoken elsewhere.

Different places may have different accents, but the internal logic of morphology and phonetics stays pretty much the same. This makes it quite a bit more significant than an "accent."

If it's a Chinese restaurant, and the menu is primarily in English, and the place isn't full of Chinese patrons speaking Chinese, it's probably crap.
Word:p

No, but painters got inspirations from more places than tropical islands, and impressionism isn't the only style of painting. Nor is it the only stule asociated with european culture.

It isnt? Isnt most 19th century painting associated with European culture?
Blacks got inspiration from non-black (bear with me) sources. That doesnt make rap any less black...

This isnt quite as you make it out to be, but linguistics is pretty esoteric stuff. Don't get so hooked up on "accents." Um...maybe you missed where I was mocking the concept of defining culture by 'accents'.

Anyone notice how few non-whites voted at all? It would be interesting to know the exact demographic of this board. Will somebody who knows how to make a poll, make a demographic poll for nationality, sex, race, age?

Then we should discuss the more worthy topic.
I agree. But I think after 30-odd pages, it wouldn’t be prudent to begin that discussion here. A new thread would be more appropriate, and the OP should include relevant statistics to back up certain claims, so that something substantial can be examined, and refuted if necessary. Unlike this thread, which is heavy on opinion, but anorexic when it comes to fact.

Um...maybe you missed where I was mocking the concept of defining culture by 'accents'.


And this is your big mistake.

You shouldnt be hung up on whether "accents" define a culture - it was the wrong word to express what he meant to begin with.

Black dialect english is NOT an accent, it is a dialect, and dialects go a very long way in marking culture.

And this is your big mistake.

You shouldnt be hung up on whether "accents" define a culture - it was the wrong word to express what he meant to begin with.

Black dialect english is NOT an accent, it is a dialect, and dialects go a very long way in marking culture.
Well before you jump to assumptions that he didn't in fact mean accent...maybe you should ask My Nordland if he meant dialect instead? You give him latitude, but I do not...I've seen to much of him to think he meant anything but what he said.

Um...maybe you missed where I was mocking the concept of defining culture by 'accents'.

Culture is a huge thing. It can be food, architecture, style of clothing etc..."accents" are one of those. American accent isnt uniform but it is still distinct than british accent. It is amusing that you can "mock" in your condition(spamming with mindless chatter all the time).

Sinuhue, I think that what the OP meant by "questioning black culture" is whether or not it's considered acceptable to question any aspect of any black culture (in America, for instance, in all its forms). There are common problems - extremely high rates of murder, high rates of incarceration, high rates of drug use, etc... and so people are wanting to know, is it OK to discuss these problems as having some root or basis in the way that these same statistical groups raise their children, etc.

The problem the OP poses is not whether or not we should ask those questions, for to find possible answers we must ask them.

The question is, why is it forbidden to even ask the questions? If even a black man like Morgan Freeman or Bill Cosby asks the questions, they are IMMEDIATELY labeled as racists. Then we are told that the ONLY reason that these problems exist is "white people".

It's been a long time since the Civil War, and a long time since the Civil Rights era. And despite accusations to the contrary, there's been a lot of progress over the years - and yet there are still major problems in many sectors of "black America". I believe it's foolish and stupid to keep "blaming it on whitey".

Other ethnic groups, like the Hispanics in my area, and most of the Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean (my group), and other Orientals, despite "discrimination" have made successes of themselves - statistically less likely to commit crimes than blacks, statistically more likely to go to college and finish, etc. So I don't buy the argument that we should never look at the group in question. I believe we should ask the hard questions about what it would take to fix their problems, for if we are all supposed to help our fellow man, closing our eyes and lying about the causes would be a great injustice.

Of course, saying that makes me a racist, or a pawn of "whitey".

Ah! Now that's an other thing!

It won't be solved over a night though... We're talking decades of effort here.
Changing the collective picture of blacks is one thing. However, this can't be engineered. That will be detected, and seen as the government interfereing and/or 'talking down' to those they want to help.

A different teaching plan in the schools, and some changes in the school system as well.
Philosophy, human rights, religious theory (of all religions) to name a few.
Obligatory first aid lessons and wilnderness/survival lessons.

A personal preference would be a year of compulsory military service. It usually forces people to mature a great deal.

Culture is a huge thing. It can be food, architecture, style of clothing etc..."accents" are one of those. American accent isnt uniform but it is still distinct than british accent. It is amusing that you can "mock" in your condition(spamming with mindless chatter all the time).
And now we know for a fact, that accent, and not dialect is what he meant.

Culture is a huge thing. It can be food, architecture, style of clothing etc..."accents" are one of those. American accent isnt uniform but it is still distinct than british accent. It is amusing that you can "mock" in your condition(spamming with mindless chatter all the time).
So, there is an 'US' accent, and a 'black' accent? You are saying that they are not the same as a British accent..and all you have done with this is show that you know little about accents at all. They vary considerably more than a little. (no, New Granada, I'm not delving into dialect, because it isn't a consideration here)

Well before you jump to assumptions that he didn't in fact mean accent...maybe you should ask My Nordland if he meant dialect instead? You give him latitude, but I do not...I've seen to much of him to think he meant anything but what he said.

Your Nordland? Why do you always call me that? Do you see me as a property? A sex object? OMG. Political Incorrectness Alert Alarm Ring the Bells HEEEEELP....

Or are you telling us you bought some land in Canada? Canada is in north afterall and it cant be real Nordland.

There is another possibility but I guess that's not it. No body can be that easily amused. Ny sounds like my, so what. This is a thing a kindergarden student would do. So it cant be this option, can it?


People were arguing that there is no black American Culture. I pointed to one variable among many that proves a distinction. Accents. Of course the correct word was dialects. Anyway, people with at least reasonable intelligence got what I meant....

Well before you jump to assumptions that he didn't in fact mean accent...maybe you should ask My Nordland if he meant dialect instead? You give him latitude, but I do not...I've seen to much of him to think he meant anything but what he said.


I dont think he knew the difference between the words "accent" and "dialect" in english to the degree that he would be conscientious about using the right one.

Honesty and integrity DEMAND that the *strongest* version of his argument be addressed, that he *automatically* be given the benefit of the doubt *especially* because of his shotcomings with english.

I think we're entitled to expect better from you, you arent a lout.

People were arguing that there is no black American Culture. I pointed to one variable among many that proves a distinction. Accents. Of course the correct word was dialects. Anyway, people with at least reasonable intelligence got what I meant....
Uh...huh. So you accepted the life preserver that was tossed to you, and changed your argument.

There is also, no uniform black dialect. So either way you try to wiggle it, you've got more than one black US culture.

So, there is an 'US' accent, and a 'black' accent? You are saying that they are not the same as a British accent..and all you have done with this is show that you know little about accents at all. They vary considerably more than a little. (no, New Granada, I'm not delving into dialect, because it isn't a consideration here)

Black Accent is a subset of US accent which is a subset of North American Accent. North American accent isnt uniform however, we still classify it differently than British Accent. Similarly, black accent isnt uniform 100% but it still forms a distinction.

I dont think he knew the difference between the words "accent" and "dialect" in english to the degree that he would be conscientious about using the right one.

Honesty and integrity DEMAND that the *strongest* version of his argument be addressed, that he *automatically* be given the benefit of the doubt *especially* because of his shotcomings with english.

I think we're entitled to expect better from you, you arent a lout.
The strongest version of his argument? Let me search for that....

....

...
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hmmm. No, I will not give him the benefit of the doubt, for one, because the belief that he has 'shortcomings with english' is not something I actually believe, as it has been pointed out by a Moderator that he is somewhat of a fake, not actually in the location he claims to be, and most likely, not at all what he claims to be. And two, because many people, much more patient than I, have spent inordinate amounts of time trying to reason and debate with him, and he consistently refuses to provide any sort of evidence to back up his claims. He instead repeats the same phrases over and over as though by repetition they will become true. Anyone who does not suddenly ‘convert’ to his way of thinking is taunted, and told that they are ‘intolerant’ instead of simply people who don’t like swallowing horse turds.

Uh...huh. So you accepted the life preserver that was tossed to you, and changed your argument.

There is also, no uniform black dialect. So either way you try to wiggle it, you've got more than one black US culture.

I havent changed my argument. Feel free to read previous posts and speculate what else I meant.
The thing is; you just got SOME of what I meant....

Black Accent is a subset of US accent which is a subset of North American Accent. North American accent isnt uniform however, we still classify it differently than British Accent. Similarly, black accent isnt uniform 100% but it still forms a distinction.
So you're still on about accent, and not doing yourself the favour of discussing dialect (either argument which still invalidates your claims of a homogenous or singular 'black culture'). At what point does the 'benefit of the doubt' expire?

The strongest version of his argument? Let me search for that....

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hmmm. No, I will not give him the benefit of the doubt, for one, because the belief that he has 'shortcomings with english' is not something I actually believe, as it has been pointed out by a Moderator that he is somewhat of a fake, not actually in the location he claims to be, and most likely, not at all what he claims to be.

I would wager that not one in ten posters on here could always use 'dialect' and 'accent' correctly.

Semantic nit-picking is not an acceptable stand-in for real engagement.

If you dont think he's post in good-faith, you have no business at all pretending to have a discussion, much less a debate.

I havent changed my argument. Feel free to read previous posts and speculate what else I meant.
The thing is; you just got SOME of what I meant....
OH! You want us to INTERPRET your argument! So you can say a few lines, and we should glean your entire intent from that! Fantastic....hope you realise that won't necessarily work in your favour...

Don't 'play mysterious'. Say what you mean. Make your point...and don't pretend that you included great nuance and meaning that only 'some' people get...because for one...that might mean that your little 'my english isn't so great' facade will melt away and reveal the truth...and for another...I don't give you that much credit.

We aren't here to mindread. State your point, and back it up. This isn't twenty guesses.

I would wager that not one in ten posters on here could always use 'dialect' and 'accent' correctly.

Semantic nit-picking is not an acceptable stand-in for real engagement.

If you dont think he's post in good-faith, you have no business at all pretending to have a discussion, much less a debate.

Thank you. Actually her tactic is effective. Stupidity wears her opponents down...

I would wager that not one in ten posters on here could always use 'dialect' and 'accent' correctly.

Semantic nit-picking is not an acceptable stand-in for real engagement.

If you dont think he's post in good-faith, you have no business at all pretending to have a discussion, much less a debate.
New Granada, I appreciate your resolve. But you have adequately defined the difference, a number of times, and he continues to discuss accent. At this point, it is entirely reasonable to assume he understand the difference between the two words, and has made the choice to continue his argument about accent. So, rather than addressing what you think he should be saying, why don't you treat him like an adult, and address what he is actually saying? Hmmm? He doesn't need you to coddle him.