NationStates Jolt Archive

NO:

1) Different culture
2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
3) Its Capital is in Asia
4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history

Diskuss...
Ny Norland, you have said everything, no need to discus here!:cool:

Take the hint then, rather than posting another 1,300 pieces of nonsense.

Things you can not comprehend will sound as nonsense to you. No surprise there...

Almost half the population in Brazil can trace direct descendants who lived on 'European mainland'....That doesnt make Brazillians European...:rolleyes:
Thinking before posting is rare on this thread, I guess...
Look, I'm not being racist or anything...it's just that we in the EU are fed up with people like you coming here and telling us what we can or can't do...you're not one of us...you have a completely different culture and wouldn't fit in with the club.

I think it's time that we in the EU stood up for ourselves and pushed back this wave of Norwegian immigrants trying to join us and flood us with their repulsive ways.

*Nods*

Things you can not comprehend will sound as nonsense to you. No surprise there...
I can fully comprehend that you're a small minded racist. Honestly, it's not that hard to get your head round.

Nothing to add to this... it's the perfect answer. It astounds me how many ignorant people there are in the world. Is Russia more European than Turkey? The only grounds I can think of for this opinion is because its Christian. In which case what about Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia? need we go on? More than 30% of Turkey's population could trace direct descendants who lived on 'European mainland'.. that certainly strengthens the argument. And if that's not enough, how much of Eastern Europe, formerly part of the Ottoman Empire, has been influenced by Turkey and vide-versa? Take a visit to these countries and see for yourself and then re-think your historically and culturally inaccurate opinions.
Bosnia is part of Europe, but Bosnian Muslim aren't. Same thing for Albania. Kosovo is still part of Christian country, so what is point? Turks have always invaded Europe, kill it's people and tryed to burry it's culture. Turks should be where they belong - in Asia!

Turkey may become EU member, but Turkey will NEVER be part of the Europe.

Yes, those countries have been influenced by Turks, that is why there was war in Bosnia and Kosovo and Greece.

Turk actiones against Greece, support of terrorist and ant-christian feelings (what is the Turkey's best-seller now?) clearly indicate that Turkey Doesn't belong to Europe. PERIOD!

Language has nothing in common with european languages.
Religion was upon a time of a little sense, nowadays it's islamic.

That country is alien to Europe.
The people make good immigrants, that's all.


;)

Historically large parts of Turkey were in Europe as the Ottoman Empire so I don't think it should be excluded from the EU just because the Slavs are now independant.

I apologise for my earlier messages. They were sent off in haste before I had time to read the whole thread.

I don't know if you can report messages for racisms and xenophobia but there's been way too much in here for my liking. For the record I am born and bred British with absolutely no Turkish blood in me. I have travelled extensively all over Europe and Asia as part of my job. I have as many Greek friends as I have Turks and, by the way, the biggest supporter of Turkey's accession to the EU is Greece..... go figure.

I have met geographers who have said Turkey is in Asia but I have met more who say that it straddles Europe and Asia... ergo,,... it is part of Europe and Asia. The US has also correctly come out and made the point that Turkey is the best example of a Muslim democracy in the world and should be given every support to help it continue along that path. The fact that Turks overwhelmingly support accession to the EU over the possibly more lucrative option of leading an economic Arab League with maximum US backing is particularly interesting. What shocks me is it is not the Eatsern Europeans, the countries that have direct experience of being invaded and living under Turks, who oppose their accession. It is the countries who have little or no historical relationship who vehemently oppose, based on their percieved understanding of what went on.

How illogical is this?

Turkey is not ready for EU accession... this is a fact. However, since Tayyip Erdogan has come to power, Turkish competition laws favouring Turkish companies have been repealed, the judicial system and tax system has taken a complete overhual and great strides have been made in terms of human rights. They are not yet there, mainly because their bureacracy is so arcane and unworkable that little police chiefs in the east can basically do what they like and fascist lawyers can still demand death penalties for saying something bad about Turkey. However there has been much progress aned there is still much to do. Turkey does not expect to join the EU anytime soon. It just expects to be given as fair a chance as any other country

Let's not use the argument of geography and history when even the specialists accept that such categorisation is impossible. Let's not use religion as an excuse for in doing so we ignore the natural slavic Bosnians and the Albanians, not to mention the vast numbers of white Muslims living in Europe. Let us rather judge Turkey by its political and economic suitability for the EU. For they are the only reliable indicators.

NO:

1) Different culture
2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
3) Its Capital is in Asia
4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history

Diskuss...

FUCK NO DUDE..!

Many persons wrote about Turkey influencing Europe... that's true: Turkey or, better, the Ottoman Empire, was one of the key-elements in creating an Europen consciousness... But this only because "we" were the Europeans and "they" were "the others", the "non-Europeans".

About having Turkey in the UE... well.. I think that it's not a great idea: we already have enough problems being 25 countries and having the minorities that we have, adding a problematic country like Turkey with their minorities would turn the things even worse. It's not a problem of immigration (that the enlargement wouldn't accelerate that much, as shown by the last UE members), it's a problem of political issues. Having Turkey would mean having a huge muslim country (religion is an important political issue, even if the government is secular), with minorities such the armenians and the kurds (a thing that may generate new problems with countries like Iran and Iraq, overall if the UE gave autonomy to those minorities), not forgetting the big problems about the European ideas about human rights, that today are not respected by Turkey, as somebody stated before. It would mean giving to several middle eastern countries the "right" to ask for membership, changing European Union into something too big to be able to do anything.
These are the important POLITICAL and DIPLOMATICAL issues that explain why we shouldn't give to Turkey the UE membership. It's not about racism, is about Realpolitik.

And TLN, please, avoid citing your family that had to flee from "greek nazism" (btw: you apply the words "fascism" and "nazism" too many times, often in situations where they hardly fit---> i.e.: Norway is absolutely not fascist) as an example of "european intolerance", when a few years before Turkey did the first genocide of history and while you were fleeing from Greece with thousand turkish people, thousand greeks were fleeing from Turkey for the same reason... Sometimes you try to give a too much "innocent" vision of Turkey...

I apologise for my earlier messages. They were sent off in haste before I had time to read the whole thread.

I don't know if you can report messages for racisms and xenophobia but there's been way too much in here for my liking. For the record I am born and bred British with absolutely no Turkish blood in me. I have travelled extensively all over Europe and Asia as part of my job. I have as many Greek friends as I have Turks and, by the way, the biggest supporter of Turkey's accession to the EU is Greece..... go figure.

I have met geographers who have said Turkey is in Asia but I have met more who say that it straddles Europe and Asia... ergo,,... it is part of Europe and Asia. The US has also correctly come out and made the point that Turkey is the best example of a Muslim democracy in the world and should be given every support to help it continue along that path. The fact that Turks overwhelmingly support accession to the EU over the possibly more lucrative option of leading an economic Arab League with maximum US backing is particularly interesting. What shocks me is it is not the Eatsern Europeans, the countries that have direct experience of being invaded and living under Turks, who oppose their accession. It is the countries who have little or no historical relationship who vehemently oppose, based on their percieved understanding of what went on.

How illogical is this?

Turkey is not ready for EU accession... this is a fact. However, since Tayyip Erdogan has come to power, Turkish competition laws favouring Turkish companies have been repealed, the judicial system and tax system has taken a complete overhual and great strides have been made in terms of human rights. They are not yet there, mainly because their bureacracy is so arcane and unworkable that little police chiefs in the east can basically do what they like and fascist lawyers can still demand death penalties for saying something bad about Turkey. However there has been much progress aned there is still much to do. Turkey does not expect to join the EU anytime soon. It just expects to be given as fair a chance as any other country

Let's not use the argument of geography and history when even the specialists accept that such categorisation is impossible. Let's not use religion as an excuse for in doing so we ignore the natural slavic Bosnians and the Albanians, not to mention the vast numbers of white Muslims living in Europe. Let us rather judge Turkey by its political and economic suitability for the EU. For they are the only reliable indicators.
Turkey have population of 60.000.000 citizens. 60.000.000 MUSLIMS!!!! 8.000.000 Albanians and Bosnian Muslims are causing enough trouble on their own! Imagine 60.000.000 from Turkey! Plus Muslim minorities that live all across Europe! Are you aware of that number?

I know many Greeks and beleave me, they would rather die than to live with Turks!

Turkey have population of 60.000.000 citizens. 60.000.000 MUSLIMS!!!! 8.000.000 Albanians and Bosnian Muslims are causing enough trouble on their own! Imagine 60.000.000 from Turkey! Plus Muslim minorities that live all across Europe! Are you aware of that number?

I know many Greeks and beleave me, they would rather die than to live with Turks!

OH Noes! Teh evil Mooslems!!!111

Hokay.
Here's my plan.
We invade Turkey, while raging about Anschluss.
( There's some Sudeten-Greeks in Izmir, anyway. )

We then annex it to the EU.

Everybody happy?

I say everyone join EU so we could finally take control over stupid deeds USA does nowadays. Thank you, USA, for all you have done for Europe in World War Two, but fukk off now. Make tea, not war. Who are you gonna bomb and occupy next year? Shame on american government and establishment, shame on american people for not doing anything about it. And polluting our lovely planet. And being so totally stupid and too much focus on consumption and globalism.

I'd love Russia to join, too - so we could straighten these wackos up a bit.:headbang:

OH Noes! Teh evil Mooslems!!!111

Oh shut up. Turkey is democratic and examplarery muslim country. All that human rights records, repression of women and homosexuals. A country in which 90% of women is subject to violance by their bf's or husbands DOES belong in EU (http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf).

NOTE: Keep the sarcasm when you find it...

OH Noes! Teh evil Mooslems!!!111
Go and live with them if you like them so much! They are wery polite and nice people! If we don't count in beheading, killing everyone who doesnt think like they do; and demanding rights, while not giving any! Tell me could be possible in Istambul for Christians to protest because some Turk has insulted Jesus?

Oh shut up. Turkey is democratic and examplarery muslim country. All that human rights records, repression of women and homosexuals. A country in which 90% of women is subject to violance by their bf's or husbands DOES belong in EU (http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf).

NOTE: Keep the sarcasm when you find it...

I don't think I've ever stated that I support Turkey's flagrant human rights abuses and their culture. What I have stated is a desire to bring Turkey into the EU and slowly but surely liberalise them. Thus bridging the gap between Europe and the Middle East, and gaining an important ally. This would also have the benefit of destroying the points of Muslim fanatics who will scream and shout anti-Western diatribe if Turkey is rejected.

Oh shut up. Turkey is democratic and examplarery muslim country. All that human rights records, repression of women and homosexuals. A country in which 90% of women is subject to violance by their bf's or husbands DOES belong in EU (http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf).

NOTE: Keep the sarcasm when you find it...

Dude - yer not in the EU yourself.

Oh shut up. Turkey is democratic and examplarery muslim country. All that human rights records, repression of women and homosexuals. A country in which 90% of women is subject to violance by their bf's or husbands DOES belong in EU (http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf).

NOTE: Keep the sarcasm when you find it...
Look, why don't you understand! We in the EU DON'T WANT YOUR TYPE trying to get involved!

I don't think I've ever stated that I support Turkey's flagrant human rights abuses and their culture. What I have stated is a desire to bring Turkey into the EU and slowly but surely liberalise them. Thus bridging the gap between Europe and the Middle East, and gaining an important ally. This would also have the benefit of destroying the points of Muslim fanatics who will scream and shout anti-Western diatribe if Turkey is rejected.

So in order to make Turkey "liberalised", europeans need to teach and lecture them? :rolleyes:
You arent so much better than Americans who think democracy can be shoved to people's throat by war.

Look, why don't you understand! We in the EU DON'T WANT YOUR TYPE trying to get involved!
That is why many nations doesnt want to enter the EU. Live with Muslims and enjoy!

The turkish immigrants are already bitching that the addition of Poland has been a disaster for the economy and their jobs, just wait how they'll respond to the addition of their fellow turks ;)

That is why many nations doesnt want to enter the EU. Live with Muslims and enjoy!

Can you inform about those nations? Do they have names? And are they in the same hemisphere/continent/solar system as us?
Besides "neutral" Switzerland of course...

So in order to make Turkey "liberalised", europeans need to teach and lecture them? :rolleyes:
You arent so much better than Americans who think democracy can be shoved to people's throat by war.

Um, and what other methods do you propose to liberalise a country such as Turkey?

Um, and what other methods do you propose to liberalise a country such as Turkey?

Why not let them decide what's best for them?

Um, and what other methods do you propose to liberalise a country such as Turkey?


Oh, can't I please do my Anschluss thing?

Can you inform about those nations? Do they have names? And are they in the same hemisphere/continent/solar system as us?
Let see... Norway, Swizerland... (btw, Norway is the richest country in the Europe)

And if we skip governament wishes, i assure you that more than 70% of Croats, Sebs, Romanians and Bulgarians doesn't want to enter EU. But maybe you don't consider these people to be on the same hemisphere/continent/solar system as us?

Oh, can't I please do my Anschluss thing?
Greeks and Turks already have an Anschluss "thing" - Cyprus

As a matter of sarcasm, all those inbred mediterranean types look/act/talk alike, even their t.v. shows are similar. Italy of course leading the pack with miraculously tall/blonde women on every show. Long live the alliance of the northen countries! Out with the lame, no economic sense whatsoever, garlic eating unibrows!

Why not let them decide what's best for them?

Ha... ha? So we should trust a country which is a major abuser of human rights to stop them on its own? And we should just have left Nazi Germany alone as the Holocaust may have been best for their nation and it would have cleared up all on its own anyways. At least some pressure must be exerted on Turkey by the international community.

As a matter of sarcasm, all those inbred mediterranean types look/act/talk alike, even their t.v. shows are similar. Italy of course leading the pack with miraculously tall/blonde women on every show. Long live the alliance of the northen countries! Out with the lame, no economic sense whatsoever, garlic eating unibrows!
Skip the sarcasm...

Let see... Norway, Swizerland... (btw, Norway is the richest country in the Europe)

And if we skip governament wishes, i assure you that more than 70% of Croats, Sebs, Romanians and Bulgarians doesn't want to enter EU. But maybe you don't consider these people to be on the same hemisphere/continent/solar system as us?

Sorry, I'm still slightly stuck in east vs. west, God bless the cold war...:D

I apologise for my earlier messages. They were sent off in haste before I had time to read the whole thread.

I don't know if you can report messages for racisms and xenophobia but there's been way too much in here for my liking. For the record I am born and bred British with absolutely no Turkish blood in me. I have travelled extensively all over Europe and Asia as part of my job. I have as many Greek friends as I have Turks and, by the way, the biggest supporter of Turkey's accession to the EU is Greece..... go figure.

I have met geographers who have said Turkey is in Asia but I have met more who say that it straddles Europe and Asia... ergo,,... it is part of Europe and Asia. The US has also correctly come out and made the point that Turkey is the best example of a Muslim democracy in the world and should be given every support to help it continue along that path. The fact that Turks overwhelmingly support accession to the EU over the possibly more lucrative option of leading an economic Arab League with maximum US backing is particularly interesting. What shocks me is it is not the Eatsern Europeans, the countries that have direct experience of being invaded and living under Turks, who oppose their accession. It is the countries who have little or no historical relationship who vehemently oppose, based on their percieved understanding of what went on.

How illogical is this?

Turkey is not ready for EU accession... this is a fact. However, since Tayyip Erdogan has come to power, Turkish competition laws favouring Turkish companies have been repealed, the judicial system and tax system has taken a complete overhual and great strides have been made in terms of human rights. They are not yet there, mainly because their bureacracy is so arcane and unworkable that little police chiefs in the east can basically do what they like and fascist lawyers can still demand death penalties for saying something bad about Turkey. However there has been much progress aned there is still much to do. Turkey does not expect to join the EU anytime soon. It just expects to be given as fair a chance as any other country

Let's not use the argument of geography and history when even the specialists accept that such categorisation is impossible. Let's not use religion as an excuse for in doing so we ignore the natural slavic Bosnians and the Albanians, not to mention the vast numbers of white Muslims living in Europe. Let us rather judge Turkey by its political and economic suitability for the EU. For they are the only reliable indicators.

Many countries that most oppose Turkish membership are those that got most Turkish immigrants, like Austria, Germany and the Netherlands. While South E.European nations were invaded by Ottomans, their modern contacts with Turks are limited, maybe except Greece and Bulgaria.
You can report "bad" posts in moderation forum...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1231

Greeks and Turks already have an Anschluss "thing" - Cyprus

But there's Sudeten-Greeks in Izmir to be rescued!
( + sudenten turks in Thracia or summat )

Skip the sarcasm...

Actually, I am a garlic eating unibrow. By choice of course :D
I oughta move to Norway...

So in order to make Turkey "liberalised", europeans need to teach and lecture them? :rolleyes:
You arent so much better than Americans who think democracy can be shoved to people's throat by war.

Actually, it's not lecturing. It's a very simple concept : If you want to join the club, you play by the rules of the club. And as Turkey wants to become a member, it's in their interest to adopt the rules.

Actually, it's not lecturing. It's a very simple concept : If you want to join the club, you play by the rules of the club. And as Turkey wants to become a member, it's in their interest to adopt the rules.

No I meant the thinking that Turkey cant do anything by itself if it isnt "lectured" by Europeans, which skinny87 seems to be having.

So in order to make Turkey "liberalised", europeans need to teach and lecture them? :rolleyes:
You arent so much better than Americans who think democracy can be shoved to people's throat by war.

And your option would be, what, exactly? Leave them alone to fester and continue those abuses. You've done enough whining about them in threads, so what's your solution?

No I meant the thinking that Turkey cant do anything by itself if it isnt "lectured" by Europeans, which skinny87 seems to be having.

Why join people who try to lecture you every step of the way, that'd seriously piss me off. Then again "feeling" like you're being lectured is completely different

Actually, it's not lecturing. It's a very simple concept : If you want to join the club, you play by the rules of the club. And as Turkey wants to become a member, it's in their interest to adopt the rules.

Exactly my point.

Exactly my point.


HOWEVER: let us be VERY clear about the rules.

No I meant the thinking that Turkey cant do anything by itself if it isnt "lectured" by Europeans, which skinny87 seems to be having.

Everybody can learn by themselves. But it helps having a teacher. And it helps if there is at least a minor bit of pressure to succeed...

Everybody can learn by themselves. But it helps having a teacher. And it helps if there is at least a minor bit of pressure to succeed...

Exactly. I'm not saying invade them and force them to liberalise. Bringing them in, getting them to stop the human rights abuses and become less conservative through economic and military aid. And occassional pressure if needed.

HOWEVER: let us be VERY clear about the rules.

The rules ar every simple : Unless Turkey manages to achieve a certain economic, social, judical and political level, it will not be allowed to join.

The question discussed here is should it be allowed to join if it has reached said level. If it wouldn't be allowed to join, we might remove the incentive for the country to continue its reforms at the same pace.

Exactly. I'm not saying invade them and force them to liberalise. Bringing them in, getting them to stop the human rights abuses and become less conservative through economic and military aid. And occassional pressure if needed.

I wouldn't even go with the pressure. They have a goal, and they know what they need to do to achieve it.

The rules ar every simple : Unless Turkey manages to achieve a certain economic, social, judical and political level, it will not be allowed to join.

The question discussed here is should it be allowed to join if it has reached said level. If it wouldn't be allowed to join, we might remove the incentive for the country to continue its reforms at the same pace.

How about instead of EU membership, EU offers them priviliged partnership with lots of money to be given to Turkey once they complete the criteria?

The rules ar every simple : Unless Turkey manages to achieve a certain economic, social, judical and political level, it will not be allowed to join.

The question discussed here is should it be allowed to join if it has reached said level. If it wouldn't be allowed to join, we might remove the incentive for the country to continue its reforms at the same pace.


I think we also ought to be explicit about 2 other factors.

The first being geopolitical:
operate in lockstep with the Western World.

The second being political-religious:
No sharia - not today, not tomorrow, and not a 1000 years from now.

I should add here that Turkey has so far, been very good on those 2 factors.
What I'd look for is assurances that it stays that way.

If the other factors you mentioned were good too, I'd be heavily leaning towards a 'yes' for Turkey.

How about instead of EU membership, EU offers them priviliged partnership with lots of money to be given to Turkey once they complete the criteria?

Are you offering "civil unions instead of marriage"? That's plain silly. If they manage to meet the requirements for membership, they should be able to become a member.

The rules ar every simple : Unless Turkey manages to achieve a certain economic, social, judical and political level, it will not be allowed to join.

The question discussed here is should it be allowed to join if it has reached said level. If it wouldn't be allowed to join, we might remove the incentive for the country to continue its reforms at the same pace.

A world of pressumptions contained in a single word.

It comes down to: Unless Turkey acts in a way that we approve of we won't let them into the club.

That is fair enough, but to imply that the ways we approve of are in some absolute manner above the way they currently behave is to be culturally arrogant.

Are you offering "civil unions instead of marriage"? That's plain silly. If they manage to meet the requirements for membership, they should be able to become a member.

Russia, Ukraine, Lebonan, Egypt...All those will be PP. Why not Turkey as well?

I think we also ought to be explicit about 2 other factors.

The first being geopolitical:
operate in lockstep with the Western World.

The second being political-religious:
No sharia - not today, not tomorrow, and not a 1000 years from now.

I should add here that Turkey has so far, been very good on those 2 factors.
What I'd look for is assurances that it stays that way.

If the other factors you mentioned were good too, I'd be heavily leaning towards a 'yes' for Turkey.

Well, they have a very good record on both factors, ever since the country was founded. Kemal Attatuerk was very much orientated towards the West.

If Turkey was a member of the EU, it would be within its own interest not to operate against the rest of the Western world.

The sharia law is incompatible with the human rights record required to become EU member. Once it is a member, the EU will have some say in what laws can be passed in the country and what laws are inaceptable. So, in that way, it would make double sure that Turkey won't fall back onto those cruel traditions...

Well, they have a very good record on both factors, ever since the country was founded. Kemal Attatuerk was very much orientated towards the West.

If Turkey was a member of the EU, it would be within its own interest not to operate against the rest of the Western world.

The sharia law is incompatible with the human rights record required to become EU member. Once it is a member, the EU will have some say in what laws can be passed in the country and what laws are inaceptable. So, in that way, it would make double sure that Turkey won't fall back onto those cruel traditions...


Uhm - yeah - uhm - one objection:

Thatcher.
The best interest incentives aren't always good enough to maintain best behaviour.

We should look for the option to dismiss them from the Team, although not for frivolous reasons.

Well, they have a very good record on both factors, ever since the country was founded. Kemal Attatuerk was very much orientated towards the West.

If Turkey was a member of the EU, it would be within its own interest not to operate against the rest of the Western world.

The sharia law is incompatible with the human rights record required to become EU member. Once it is a member, the EU will have some say in what laws can be passed in the country and what laws are inaceptable. So, in that way, it would make double sure that Turkey won't fall back onto those cruel traditions...
I think exactly the opposite is true. One condition of Turkish entry into the EU is that military influence in the government must be reduced. The problem with this is that the military is the bulwark of secularism in the Turkish state. From what I've seen the Turkish people don't even have much of an appetite for secularism, which was shown by their election of Erdogan. He's just an islamist disguised as a moderate, he made a name for himself as part of the National Salvation Party, a now defunct islamist group. He was jailed for publicly reciting an islamist poem. If the EU forces military influence to be removed from the government, that will mean they've destroyed the political power of the most die-hard secular institution in the country.

So in order to make Turkey "liberalised", europeans need to teach and lecture them? :rolleyes:
You arent so much better than Americans who think democracy can be shoved to people's throat by war.

No, it's more like 'if you want to join our club, you have to play by our rules, otherwise fuck off'. There's nothing racist about that.

No, it's more like 'if you want to join our club, you have to play by our rules, otherwise fuck off'. There's nothing racist about that.
Or, to quote "Meet the Feebles":
Warthog: This is a lovely golf course, I'm tempted to join the club.
Bletch: I'm afraid you can't.
Warthog: You mean they discriminate against Scots?
Bletch: No, they just don't want assholes in the clubhouse.

Incorrect. Greece lies claim to large parts of Anatolia, not just the European side. The fact that they do so further supports the argument that Turkey falls within Europe's borders because, if Anatolia was Greek, would the people here think Greece shouldn't be in the EU?
How is it incorrect? What you said just validates my argument. I am fully aware of the area Greece can lay claim to. Anatolia was Greek. Ages ago. Those days are long gone. That is why I think Greece should let bygones be bygones, and stop pressing the matter.

I think exactly the opposite is true. One condition of Turkish entry into the EU is that military influence in the government must be reduced. The problem with this is that the military is the bulwark of secularism in the Turkish state. From what I've seen the Turkish people don't even have much of an appetite for secularism, which was shown by their election of Erdogan. He's just an islamist disguised as a moderate, he made a name for himself as part of the National Salvation Party, a now defunct islamist group. He was jailed for publicly reciting an islamist poem. If the EU forces military influence to be removed from the government, that will mean they've destroyed the political power of the most die-hard secular institution in the country.
Exactly. This is a major problem facing the nation's accession; the government is pro-islamic and cultural conservatism, whilst the military in favour of secularism. If governments like Erdogan continue existing, Turkey's accession may be rejected prima facie. In addition, the EU's citizens should have a say in how the EU expands. If they say no, then that is it. They, after all, must bear the costs of the expansion.

How about instead of EU membership, EU offers them priviliged partnership with lots of money to be given to Turkey once they complete the criteria?As I remember something like this was offered before, but Turkey has sought EU membership for decades and is fed of being mucked about and responded that they would accept nothing short of full membership.

Nothing to add to this... it's the perfect answer. It astounds me how many ignorant people there are in the world. Is Russia more European than Turkey? The only grounds I can think of for this opinion is because its Christian.
Its language is derived from Greek, and a lot of its cultural influences come from post-Renaissance and post-Enlightenment Europe. At a time, its monarchy was descended from the same family as those of Germany, Denmark, the UK and some other nations. It engaged in a series of alliances with Austria. Plus, it is ethnically tied to many other Eastern and Central European countries. The majority of its population lives in its European department. Where is Russia not European? In its economic system, in its oppressive regime and in its self-absorption.

As I remember something like this was offered before, but Turkey has sought EU membership for decades and is fed of being mucked about and responded that they would accept nothing short of full membership.
Even if they are not offered full membership, I doubt they will reject the prospect of a privileged relationship. It would be silly in economic terms. In fact, a number of Turks would prefer such a state of affairs over full membership.

Yankees making comment on EU matters...:rolleyes:
That handshake will lead to ---> Eurabia:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7503/40754068eustoryafp2pi.jpg

Ha. Hypocrisy never stops being funny.

Even if they are not offered full membership, I doubt they will reject the prospect of a privileged relationship. It would be silly in economic terms. In fact, a number of Turks would prefer such a state of affairs over full membership.Is that your opinion of what you would do in Turkey's place, or what think Turkey would do? Turkey has already started the accession negoiations, which should be finalised in about 10 years.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/879bd983-d3da-4d5d-98e9-302cbadd8c98.html
You'll note that it's the article says it is unlikely that Turkey will get immediate access to the bloc's labour market nor entry into the Schengen area, but then the new 2004 countries didn't get immediate access either.

Is that your opinion of what you would do in Turkey's place, or what think Turkey would do? Turkey has already started the accession negoiations, which should be finalised in about 10 years.
More to do with what I think Turkey would do. 10 years is a long time, and given the EU's current paralysis, anything could change.

If I could, as a nation in Turkey's position, gain a privileged economic partnership without having to partake in the mess that is now the EU, I would prefer the latter.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/879bd983-d3da-4d5d-98e9-302cbadd8c98.html
You'll note that it's the article says it is unlikely that Turkey will get immediate access to the bloc's labour market nor entry into the Schengen area, but then the new 2004 countries didn't get immediate access either.
Yeah, if it does enter the EU, that seems likely.

More to do with what I think Turkey would do. 10 years is a long time, and given the EU's current paralysis, anything could change.

If I could, as a nation in Turkey's position, gain a privileged economic partnership without having to partake in the mess that is now the EU, I would prefer the latter.Perhaps, but Turkey has been trying to get into the EU for over 40 years and has immediately and outrightly rejected any offer of less than full membership. It might make economic sense, but perhaps Turkey does not want to be a politcally junior party to the EU. Turkey has never applied to join the European Free Trade Association, which I think Norway and Switzerland are members of. Being a member EFTA means you're either in or you're out and have no decision in any changes of policy.

Hence, I think Turkey is looking for gains in political power and not economic power.

Perhaps, but Turkey has been trying to get into the EU for over 40 years and has immediately and outrightly rejected any offer of less than full membership. It might make economic sense, but perhaps Turkey does not want to be a politcally junior party to the EU. Turkey has never applied to join the European Free Trade Association, which I think Norway and Switzerland are members of. Being a member EFTA means you're either in or you're out and have no power of any changes in policy.

Hence, I think Turkey is looking for gains in political power and not economic power.
Yeah, that would be the main prize. However, if their politicians possess any common sense, they should definitely take what is given to them in the event that they fail to accede to the EU. Even membership of the EFTA would be a boon for Turkey. As well as for Russia. In the end, economic power is political power.

Yeah, that would be the main prize. However, if their politicians possess any common sense, they should definitely take what is given to them in the event that they fail to accede to the EU. Even membership of the EFTA would be a boon for Turkey. As well as for Russia. In the end, economic power is political power.Most of what you say makes sense. However, since when were politicians ever gifted with common sense?

Most of what you say makes sense. However, since when were politicians ever gifted with common sense?
This is what I am waiting to see. Whether Russia or Turkey can swallow their pride, and do what is economically viable for them, or reject anything the EU offers them just to slight it.

Is that your opinion of what you would do in Turkey's place, or what think Turkey would do? Turkey has already started the accession negoiations, which should be finalised in about 10 years.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/10/879bd983-d3da-4d5d-98e9-302cbadd8c98.html
You'll note that it's the article says it is unlikely that Turkey will get immediate access to the bloc's labour market nor entry into the Schengen area, but then the new 2004 countries didn't get immediate access either.

Even if they complete negotiations, how will they pass the referendum in Austria? 90% of Austrians are opposed to Turkish membership.

Even if they complete negotiations, how will they pass the referendum in Austria? 90% of Austrians are opposed to Turkish membership.
Assuming the EU puts it to a referendum. Something it probably will.

Assuming the EU puts it to a referendum. Something it probably will.

Austrian goverment said they will put it into referendum. It will be hard for them to back down from that promise...

Austrian goverment said they will put it into referendum. It will be hard for them to back down from that promise...
I really must get back to reading the news. Awesome. ^^ I wonder if other EU countries will too.

I really must get back to reading the news. Awesome. ^^ I wonder if other EU countries will too.

France will do it too. Turkey's EU membership chances are below 20%, I think.

France will do it too. Turkey's EU membership chances are below 20%, I think.
Next to 0% if you ask me. If France and Austria do it, most of the EU will follow. Then, after Turkey, they will need to focus on the Constitution and reforming the EU. So they should get this done quickly.

Ny Nordland would you mind me making a poll related to the topic of this thread or would you mind adding a poll to this thread?

Ny Nordland would you mind me making a poll related to the topic of this thread or would you mind adding a poll to this thread?

For some reason, when I click thread tools, nothing is happening...Go ahead...

For some reason, when I click thread tools, nothing is happening...Go ahead...
It may not work for him either...so Scandinvans, test it out first with some other thread before creating a "copy" of this one. Can't you ask a Mod just to add a poll?

Ny Nordland, I will create one soon, but first I will wait for you to try again such as Europa Maxima said.

Ny Nordland, I will create one soon, but first I will wait for you to try again such as Europa Maxima said.
You can try ask a Mod as well if you like.

Turkey is a bird.

Ny Nordland, I will create one soon, but first I will wait for you to try again such as Europa Maxima said.

No need to bother mods for that. Go ahead...

Alright, then I shall create one right away...

Just a question that Ny Nordland asked in a different thread and he agreed to let me use his idea to make a poll. So respond as you will to this question, but please remember no improper language..

Sorry, about this, but in option seven second part of it should read ‘but now is part of Europe.’

**** no.

**** no.
Ditto.

Not even close. Not in cultural and not in geography.

No, no, and only a little bit. Referring to culturally, historically and geographically respectively.

No, no, and only a little bit. Referring to culturally, historically and geographically respectively.

What he said.

According to Harvard's Samuel Huntington the post Cold War era is a world of seven or eight civilizations:


Sinic (China and related cultures, i.e. Vietnam, the Koreas)
Japanese (obvious)
Hindu (India)
Islamic (including the Arab, Turkic, Persian, and Malay cultures)
Orthodox (Russia)
Western (Europe, North America, possibly Latin America)
Latin America (an offspring of Western Culture, Huntington sees it as having evolved along a different path from Europe and North America; more corporatist and authoritarian)
African (possibly distinct; much of it Islamic or Western dominated)


Using this criteria, Turkey is a country on the border - physically, socially, and politically - between the Islamic civilization and the Western civilization. Most observers would suggest that Turkey is more likely to eventually end up more fully in the Islamic civilization than the Western, since it is really only the ruling elite who are moving toward the West.

Using this criteria, Turkey is a country on the border, physically, socially, and politically between the Islamic civilization and the Western (not European) civilization. Most observers would suggest that Turkey is more likely to eventually end up more fully in the Islamic civilization than the Western, since it is really only the ruling elite that are moving toward the West.[/FONT][/SIZE]
And in particular, the military elite. ;) The current government would like to see a restoration of Islamic principles in Turkey. While it is moving towards Europe, it is clinging to traditional Islamic values. So who knows which direction Turkey will head in.

Most observers would suggest that Turkey is more likely to eventually end up more fully in the Islamic civilization than the Western, since it is really only the ruling elite that are moving toward the West.
Apart from me not believing that civilisations can or should be classified like this, I have my doubts about this one.

The Turkish leadership is pretty much anti-religion, at least in politics. The major cities are Westernised cities. The only areas in which Islam can be a force are rural areas in the East - and there it is its own unique version of Islam, shaped by the local cultures and history, and very different from your normal Middle Eastern, Arabian Islams.

Turkey is definitely moving westwards. All that talk about culture, geography or religion is bullshit, and nothing more, usually from people who have yet to see or speak to a single Turk. I have lived in a city in which probably a fifth or so of people are Turkish or children of Turks. They are no different to anyone else!
The only reason that Turkey cannot join the EU is because they are politically and economically not fulfilling any sort of reasonable criteria.

Apart from me not believing that civilisations can or should be classified like this, I have my doubts about this one.

The Turkish leadership is pretty much anti-religion, at least in politics. The major cities are Westernised cities. The only areas in which Islam can be a force are rural areas in the East - and there it is its own unique version of Islam, shaped by the local cultures and history, and very different from your normal Middle Eastern, Arabian Islams.

Turkey is definitely moving westwards. All that talk about culture, geography or religion is bullshit, and nothing more, usually from people who have yet to see or speak to a single Turk. I have lived in a city in which probably a fifth or so of people are Turkish or children of Turks. They are no different to anyone else!
The only reason that Turkey cannot join the EU is because they are politically and economically not fulfilling any sort of reasonable criteria.

*claps and hands you some special cookies*

genetically they <i>look</i> arab, but they are more European
^dont know exactly myself, just discussing it in geography

but lets settle for Eurasian...

Since I really can't be bothered reading 40 pages to see how many times this has been said already, I'll say it now. I'm pretty sure that Turkeys are native to North America.

http://encyclopedia.com/html/t/turkey.asp

Yes, I already know that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so please feel free to tell me so.

Since I really can't be bothered reading 40 pages to see how many times this has been said already, I'll say it now. I'm pretty sure that Turkeys are native to North America.

http://encyclopedia.com/html/t/turkey.asp


Yes and we should eat them on a regular basis, they're quite nutritious! High in protein.

Yes and we should eat them on a regular basis, they're quite nutritious! High in protein.
I hate and turkey and chicken! Pork is my first choise!:D

According to Harvard's Samuel Huntington the post Cold War era is a world of seven or eight civilizations:


Sinic (China and related cultures, i.e. Vietnam, the Koreas)
Japanese (obvious)
Hindu (India)
Islamic (including the Arab, Turkic, Persian, and Malay cultures)
Orthodox (Russia)
Western (Europe, North America, possibly Latin America)
Latin America (an offspring of Western Culture, Huntington sees it as having evolved along a different path from Europe and North America; more corporatist and authoritarian)
African (possibly distinct; much of it Islamic or Western dominated)


Using this criteria, Turkey is a country on the border - physically, socially, and politically - between the Islamic civilization and the Western civilization. Most observers would suggest that Turkey is more likely to eventually end up more fully in the Islamic civilization than the Western, since it is really only the ruling elite who are moving toward the West.
This entirely overlooks true turkish culture that created Europe Hun empire, built white pyramids in nows chinese lands, had full golden armors for its princes at steppes of Russia, created Taj Mahal at India, Uygur cities and their high philosophy and art and many other civilizations which I get tired of telling people about in history, each distinct and created by turks.
The islam as a focus in Turkish history is very young and starts with 13. century Harzemsahs. After that era most of the Islam civilization was created by turks. But before that era we had both nomad and civilized cultures. The nomad culture told in westerns history books is too weak and mostly about neighbouring nations like Mongols in asia. They are as wrong as history view sees Wests roots in greece, but in truth true western civilization is born from Etrusc civilization which was left buried in history. As turkish histories roots are connected with Sumer history which streches far back than 10.000 years.
Im sure there are those of you that know these but for sake of keeping same politics you shut up them. And for others who dont know, they are living in the bliss of ignorance like most of the worlds population.

Even if they complete negotiations, how will they pass the referendum in Austria? 90% of Austrians are opposed to Turkish membership.As far as I know it doesn explicitly have to be a referendum. Governments, if they so wish, only have to get the accession treaty passed by their parliament.

This entirely overlooks true turkish culture that created Europe Hun empire, built white pyramids in nows chinese lands, had full golden armors for its princes at steppes of Russia, created Taj Mahal at India, Uygur cities and their high philosophy and art and many other civilizations which I get tired of telling people about in history, each distinct and created by turks.
The islam as a focus in Turkish history is very young and starts with 13. century Harzemsahs. After that era most of the Islam civilization was created by turks. But before that era we had both nomad and civilized cultures. The nomad culture told in westerns history books is too weak and mostly about neighbouring nations like Mongols in asia. They are as wrong as history view sees Wests roots in greece, but in truth true western civilization is born from Etrusc civilization which was left buried in history. As turkish histories roots are connected with Sumer history which streches far back than 10.000 years.
Im sure there are those of you that know these but for sake of keeping same politics you shut up them. And for others who dont know, they are living in the bliss of ignorance like most of the worlds population.
Amebes - Turks! :D

lol 40 pages.

Wow, labels.

Think of it this way.

Europe is a club, similar to the way that the United States is a club (well, not exactly, but close).

The US has 50 member states that have largely given up their sovereignty to a federal government, and the EU is a vaguely similar setup (though not as much in the way of giving up sovereignty).

Anyone can join the club, as long as they are willing to follow the rules.

If Turkey can follow the rules, why can't they join? A bigger club is often a better, more powerful one.

Think of it this way.

Europe is a club, similar to the way that the United States is a club (well, not exactly, but close).

The US has 50 member states that have largely given up their sovereignty to a federal government, and the EU is a vaguely similar setup (though not as much in the way of giving up sovereignty).

Anyone can join the club, as long as they are willing to follow the rules.

If Turkey can follow the rules, why can't they join? A bigger club is often a better, more powerful one.

So if Mexico wanted to join the USA club, without changing its basic nature first, would the members of the club welcome it or ask it to change?

This is the equivalent to the Turkey issue. It is not that most of us are opposed to Turkey joining the EU, but we are opposed to them joining if they won't really adopt the rules of the club. Just lip service to the rules is not sufficient. They have to really adopt a western european perspective on society.

So if Mexico wanted to join the USA club, without changing its basic nature first, would the members of the club welcome it or ask it to change?

This is the equivalent to the Turkey issue. It is not that most of us are opposed to Turkey joining the EU, but we are opposed to them joining if they won't really adopt the rules of the club. Just lip service to the rules is not sufficient. They have to really adopt a western european perspective on society.

One of the rules is to change a lot of things. I haven't said that the applicant doesn't have to make major changes.

Turkey is larger than any European country + 73.000.000 citizens (Britain have an 60.000.000; France 63.000.000; Germany 82.000.000). Imagine that burden on EU economy + cultural differences! We woud have an BIG problem. EU is already too large!

NO:

1) Different culture
2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
3) Its Capital is in Asia
4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history

Diskuss...

According to your logic, vikings and germans aren't european either. :rolleyes:

I agree if we as Turkiye dont agree with your rules at the first place we have no place in EU. But if we do the criterias we are in, you cant change the rules againa and again just because in the first place it was your wish to meddle with our internal affairs but never accept us. That would be an offense.

As for my opinion I see that European Union is not what I want it to be, its a lot more weak and indecisive than I can stand for. But we in Turkiye as a democracy do what general public wants to do unless its against principles of our secular republic. For example we dont just become 5.th reich just because one day people decide its good to do so.
People were effected by media and politicians to want the EU and they gave their support to it so now we are going in that way. And I as a free citizen obey whats decided. I do my best to use any event to my countrys advantage by spending time and energy on solutions to presented problems. Sitting idly and going against what is already set in motion does me no good, but furthering it quicly to see the outcome and being able to see into future is better. If we one day enter EU, I will make EU a better place, something stronger than its founders ever dreamed of.

But If EU does add more and more demands and never seems to be satisfied and we dont just get accepted no matter what; one day we come by another roadsplit and asked of our opinions I will say that we must forget about EU, take advantege of what we did until that day, stand by our own feet and endure harder transitions because it will make us stronger. And only in becoming stronger we can be of use to human race, help our fellow man.

Thus far it seems that people’s opinions are that Turkey is not in away part of Europe.

**** no.

**** yes!

He bitches at me for doing the same thing this thread is doing.. :rolleyes:

I agree if we as Turkiye dont agree with your rules at the first place we have no place in EU. But if we do the criterias we are in, you cant change the rules againa and again just because in the first place it was your wish to meddle with our internal affairs but never accept us. That would be an offense.

As for my opinion I see that European Union is not what I want it to be, its a lot more weak and indecisive than I can stand for. But we in Turkiye as a democracy do what general public wants to do unless its against principles of our secular republic. For example we dont just become 5.th reich just because one day people decide its good to do so.
People were effected by media and politicians to want the EU and they gave their support to it so now we are going in that way. And I as a free citizen obey whats decided. I do my best to use any event to my countrys advantage by spending time and energy on solutions to presented problems. Sitting idly and going against what is already set in motion does me no good, but furthering it quicly to see the outcome and being able to see into future is better. If we one day enter EU, I will make EU a better place, something stronger than its founders ever dreamed of.

But If EU does add more and more demands and never seems to be satisfied and we dont just get accepted no matter what; one day we come by another roadsplit and asked of our opinions I will say that we must forget about EU, take advantege of what we did until that day, stand by our own feet and endure harder transitions because it will make us stronger. And only in becoming stronger we can be of use to human race, help our fellow man.
Listen, EU doesn't want Turkey in the club. They just want to have Turkey as some sort of puppet...

Here is the example: Negotiations with Turkey started long time ago, and now we have an Slovenia, Poland, Czech Republic... in EU, althou Turkey started negotiations with EU long before those countries!

Hell NO!

Listen, EU doesn't want Turkey in the club. They just want to have Turkey as some sort of puppet...

Here is the example: Negotiations with Turkey started long time ago, and now we have an Slovenia, Poland, Czech Republic... in EU, althou Turkey started negotiations with EU long before that countries!
Politics are a gentle art my friend, I prefer subtle methods.
(sshh be quiet! Im aware of that, Im supporting Eu in order to hasten everything and let it be seen by everyone what really are EU's intentions. Im giving them a chance to prove their sincerity and when its over no one can blame me. After all there are really sincere europeans that want the EU stronger, I dont want to push them to side by evıl ones by directly claiming that all europeans are poo poo! :D )

...does anyone know European history at all ?

The modern state of Turkey is a secular republic modelled consciously at it's inception on the principles of assimilating the industrial revolution and the mechanisms of economics, warfare, and governance of Western Europe. Yes, it's historic institutions and customs were not abolished by this intent....but compare Turkey to say, Egypt, or Iran, other great power rump states in the general region. Do you really think it's not distinct ?

They are no less "behind the times" than Bularia or Romania, neither of which anyone quibbles about the "european-ness" of. The point is, their manner of organizing themselves is more like European than not.

Geographically, yes, only a tiny speck of it is in Europe, but Constantinople, historically and in modern times has been a European city. a few miles of water doesn't mean it's not on the trade routes of Europe, or a focus point of European history. Anatolia (the mainland of Turkey) for the longest time bore the same relation to Constantinople as upstate New York does to New York City: a bulky hinterland of some relevance but not where the heart and soul of the state resides.

It's been the gateway between East and West for 1500 years, since before the Turks migrated in and conquered and assimilated the natives. (btw, ethnically, most of Turkey is not Turkomen) It may be on the periphery, but so were Britain and Sweden, both of which an important role to play in "European" history.

They're not _typical_ Europeans, but on any axis there are other European states that are as they are. Just not the _same_ European states.

And btw, not inviting them into the EU is _stupid_...since Europe has let in the unrehabilitated nationalist butchers of Croatia, it's obvious that the hallmark of being "civilzed" enough is just window dressing, and that the operative doctrine is one of hope of mellowing members by association. Turkey needs mellowing. It's going in the right direction, and closing the door in their face would push them in the _wrong_ direction.

Sheesh. it's like trying to boot the USA out of GATT and WTO because Bush is a fundie (stigmatizing Turkey because it's a little less secular than it used to be).

you forgot the myrth option you evil...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6a/Ottoman_1683.png

IMHO the Ottoman Empire seems to have quite a big historical claim to South-Eastern Europe!

I believe the turkey is in fact native to North America. Benjamin Franklin prefered it to the bald eagle for the U.S. national bird.

If i post maps of Rome or Alexander's Greece, would that count Middle East, Egypt, Iran and North Africa as part of Europe?

Wasn't there a thread about this yesterday?

This entirely overlooks true turkish culture that created Europe Hun empire, built white pyramids in nows chinese lands, had full golden armors for its princes at steppes of Russia, created Taj Mahal at India, Uygur cities and their high philosophy and art and many other civilizations which I get tired of telling people about in history, each distinct and created by turks.
The islam as a focus in Turkish history is very young and starts with 13. century Harzemsahs. After that era most of the Islam civilization was created by turks. But before that era we had both nomad and civilized cultures. The nomad culture told in westerns history books is too weak and mostly about neighbouring nations like Mongols in asia. They are as wrong as history view sees Wests roots in greece, but in truth true western civilization is born from Etrusc civilization which was left buried in history. As turkish histories roots are connected with Sumer history which streches far back than 10.000 years.
Im sure there are those of you that know these but for sake of keeping same politics you shut up them. And for others who dont know, they are living in the bliss of ignorance like most of the worlds population.

Setting aside for a moment that historians are far from unanimous in their agreement that the Huns were indeed Turkic (some maintain they were Mongolian), the original Turkic people originated in Central Asia in what is today Mongolia, Uzbekistan, and southwest Kazakhastan. This only reinforces the argument that the Turks are NOT part of the Western tradition, but rather have a separate and distinct culture.

Does this mean Turks cannot become part of Western civilization? No. But, why would they want to? And is it likely that, other than the ruling elite, the vast majority of Turks will be willing to trade their Islamic culture for a European/Western one?

I see little evidence of that.

Setting aside for a moment that historians are far from unanimous in their agreement that the Huns were indeed Turkic (some maintain they were Mongolian), the original Turkic people originated in Central Asia in what is today Mongolia, Uzbekistan, and southwest Kazakhastan. This only reinforces that argument that Turks are NOT part of the Western tradition, but rather have a separate and distinct culture.

Does this mean that Turks cannot become part of Western civilization? No. But, why would they want to? And is it likely that, other than the ruling elite, the vast majority of Turks will be willing to trade their Islamic culture for a European/Western one?

I see little evidence of that.
Bravo! ;)

If i post maps of Rome or Alexander's Greece, would that count Middle East, Egypt, Iran and North Africa as part of Europe?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing....


Let's see...

The Greeks conquered Egypt, installed one of the generals and his hangers on as the new nobility, and things continued much the same as before.

Rome conquered Egypt, and treated it like all of it's other major foreign conquests : abide by our laws on the big things, do whatever you like on the day to day affairs.

When Alexander's empire fell, it left only the ripple of Hellenic thought upon the elites where it had been; their national identity, religion, customs, and societal norms were mostly intact and unaltered.

When Rome fell, it left a larger impact....but the Roman way of thinking was eradicated from these regions by the trampling of foreign armies over the area repeatedly and finally by the imposition of Islam as the theocratic paradigm organizing society henceforth.

By the modern day, the "European" influence in these areas is negligible.

Now, let's look at the Balkans.

One area is still Moslem, despite huge disincentives by the communists and by the current neighbours. Moslem enclaves remain sprinkled throughout.

The emphasis in seeing the community and not the individual as the basic level of societal functioning which was held by the Turks is stronger there than in the neighbours. This is also why the Communist armies in 1944-45 didn't have to work hard to conquerthis area (well, one of many reasons)

The relationship works both ways: the Ottoman Empire because it was cheek and jowel against the "heathen" Europeans absorbed some of their ideas. The threads of Hellenic thought which the Byzantine empire had preserved up until the Ottoman conquest of Constantinope in the Fifthteenth Century were incorporated into their ideas of governance.

The migratory horde didn't keep throwing itself at the gates of Vienna over and over, even though this approach would likely have eventually broken through. They changed their ways and settled down, and copied some of (though not all of ) the ways of these surprisingly resilient infidels.

Compare the Ottomans to other contemporary Moslem kingdoms WITHOUT European neighbours. They are different. Not night and day, but the point is even nearly a century after the end of the Ottoman empire, the mutual footprint the left on the Balkans and the Europeans left on them (in Turkey, the rump state of their Empire, however radically refounded it was) is undeniable.

Culturally and Geographically, no, but historically it has been an important (if chronically unpopular) European power.

I favour Turkish admission into the EU. It would provide a link to the Middle East if we had a Muslim country. A prosperous, secular Turkey would also provide a good example for the rest of the region.

Hell yes.

*singing*

Transcontinental nations, how I love you
You rock my world on more then two continents
Oh Gods I tire of this drivel too
This thread has been done before
So please, please, no more...

Not even close. Not in cultural and not in geography.

I agree.

I believe the turkey is in fact native to North America. Benjamin Franklin prefered it to the bald eagle for the U.S. national bird.

absolutely.

today we think of the turkey as a very stupid bird (as indeed the domestic turkey is, my mother in law had several turkey babies die by being trapped in footprints) but the native wild turkey is a splendid and clever bird.

i am however rather glad that it wasnt chosen for our national symbol since bald eagle would make a terrible thanksgiving day main course.

Wasn't there a thread about this yesterday?
Oh there's a thread on this every day. At least it feels like there is...

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul!

It isn't a matter of where the Turks originated or if they have historical claims to southeastern Europe. The real question's is Turkey part of Western civilization or culture?

Western civilization is based upon some fundamental ideas, such as separation of religion and government, respect for the value of the individual, belief in fundamental rights and freedoms, belief in the equality of all people, popular sovereignty, and belief in the rule of law, among other things. Western civilization has grown out of the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Enlightenment; has been shaped by revolutions in England, France, and the United States; and is enshrined in documents such as the Magna Carta, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, and the American Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

Western civilization is not just about wearing blue jeans, watching cricket, drinking a coke, and listening to the Gorillaz on your iPod. It is a political, economic, and social philosophy that I don't believe runs very deep in Turkey. Perhaps it would be benefitial for Turkey to join the EU, but should they do so, how many people in Turkey would begin to refer to themselves as Europeans or Westerners?

Oh dear... It's still here! The thread, she is alive! RUN AWAY!

Ah... There can be only one!
*Thread-merge!*

Oh there's a thread on this every day. At least it feels like there is...
Constantinople: Residents' views (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7wLIaLAZV4&search=Resident)

Constantinople: Residents' views (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7wLIaLAZV4&search=Resident)
:fluffle:

Tiny Toons version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTdqI8mqw2E&search=Constantinople) :p

Constantinople: Residents' views (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7wLIaLAZV4&search=Resident)
That was scary.

:fluffle:

Tiny Toons version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTdqI8mqw2E&search=Constantinople) :p
Very nice.:cool:

Is Russia? Turkey is within boundries, so yes.

That was scary.
Like this thread :p

:fluffle:

Tiny Toons version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTdqI8mqw2E&search=Constantinople) :p
The beginning is from the game, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, for ORIGINAL Nes, correct?

The beginning is from the game, Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, for ORIGINAL Nes, correct?
Uh... Yeah... I suppose? I'll give you a cookie for the effort anyway. :D

*Hands Parkus Empire a cookie*

Ha! i see a lot of South/North Americans, as well as some Asians here. You are not in position to discus about Turkey and Europe! What? You think that if Turkey becomes part of EU, maybe some day your country can? Hell NO!

Turkish influence on Balkans:

Bosnia - 40% Muslim (Bosniaks), 60% European (Croats, Serbs)
Albania - 90% Muslim, 10% European (Christian Albanians, Greeks and Serbs)
Turkey - 80% Muslim, 20% European (Greeks, Bulgarians)
Serbia - 15% Muslim (Roma, Albanians, Bosniaks), 85% European (Serbs, Croats, Hungarians)
Croatia - 5% Muslim (Roma, Bosniaks), 95% European (Croats, Serbs, Hungarians)
Bulgaria - 20% Muslim (Roma, Turks), 80% Europeans (Bulgarians)
Slovenia - 2% Muslim (Bosniaks), 98% Europeans (Slovenes)
Montenegro - 40% Muslim (Roma, Albanians, Bosniaks), 60% European (Serbs, Croats)
Greece - 15% Muslim (Albanians, Turks), 85% Europeans (Greeks)
Romania - 10% Muslim (Roma, Arabs), 90% Europeans (Romanians, Hungarians, Serbs, Bulgarians)

And the point of that ethnic/religious breakdown is what exactly?

Influence of Turkey on Balkans.

Continents are such a stupid concept...

Now that's funny. It reminds me of a European traveler i met who said that in his education, he was told that north and south america are the same continent. Being from the north, I disagreed with what he had been told. When he went a step further to insist that his opinion agreed with his education, I felt obliged to modify one of my own estimations and decree that Eurasia is a single continent, in a geographically much more compelling way than his standpoint.

I think that the EU should very carefully consider the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the increasing disenfranchisement in the American and Chinese empires before going gung ho to build there own.

The EU is such a misnomer. It should really be labelled as FGE or the Franco-German Empire. Removal of "European" from the organisations tile makes it´s current expansionist plans more understandable.

Where will it stop? On Mexico´s border with America on one side, and on Russia´s border with china on the other.

Get used to Frogs legs and bratwurst, for soon all other food will be deemed not FGE and banned.

The EU is such a misnomer. It should really be labelled as FGE or the Franco-German Empire. Removal of "European" from the organisations tile makes it´s current expansionist plans more understandable.

Where will it stop? On Mexico´s border with America on one side, and on Russia´s border with china on the other.

Get used to Frogs legs and bratwurst, for soon all other food will be deemed not FGE and banned.
Great post!
Bravo!

Please enlighten me as to what they have contributed to europe besides turkish coffee and turkish bath?
The Renaissance, the teachings of science and literature to European scholars, gunpowder, music and much more.

The EU is such a misnomer. It should really be labelled as FGE or the Franco-German Empire. Removal of "European" from the organisations tile makes it´s current expansionist plans more understandable.

Where will it stop? On Mexico´s border with America on one side, and on Russia´s border with china on the other.

Get used to Frogs legs and bratwurst, for soon all other food will be deemed not FGE and banned.
Well that was an ignorant post.

Everyone in the EU is quite involved, and everyone benefits from it, too. It allows workers to work and live in any EU country for as long as they want, and simply, too.

The CAP also means that farmers in Europe can still afford to live, and sets quotas on food so that we don't overproduce or underproduce food.

The benefits of the EU pertaining to the use of passports in other EU states (and also Switzerland) is amazingly handy, and the money that's spent on building up the poorer states is used very well, mostly for building up the infrastructure of those states.

And it's not just the French and Germans who run it. What about the Spanish, British, Portugese, Austrians and other states?

They all have a hand in what goes on, I think you'll find.

The Renaissance, the teachings of science and literature to European scholars, gunpowder, music and much more.

Wow, turkey gave Europe the Renaissance? Hey, forget Dante, forget Petrach, forget the Medici family, it was TURKEY who gave Europe the WHOLE Renaissance.

Wow, turkey gave Europe the Renaissance? Hey, forget Dante, forget Petrach, forget the Medici family, it was TURKEY who gave Europe the WHOLE Renaissance.
Just remember who taught all of those people.

Just remember who taught all of those people.

The Sicilian School of Poetry?

Wow, turkey gave Europe the Renaissance? Hey, forget Dante, forget Petrach, forget the Medici family, it was TURKEY who gave Europe the WHOLE Renaissance.

The argument is that they were partially responsible. Partial responsibility is enough to show that Turkey has played a major part in the culture and history of Europe and not just in attempts to conquer.

Ha! i see a lot of South/North Americans, as well as some Asians here. You are not in position to discus about Turkey and Europe! What? You think that if Turkey becomes part of EU, maybe some day your country can? Hell NO!

Bosnia - 40% Muslim (Bosniaks), 60% European (Croats, Serbs)
Albania - 90% Muslim, 10% European (Christian Albanians, Greeks and Serbs)
Turkey - 80% Muslim, 20% European (Greeks, Bulgarians)
Serbia - 15% Muslim (Roma, Albanians, Bosniaks), 85% European (Serbs, Croats, Hungarians)
Croatia - 5% Muslim (Roma, Bosniaks), 95% European (Croats, Serbs, Hungarians)
Bulgaria - 20% Muslim (Roma, Turks), 80% Europeans (Bulgarians)
Slovenia - 2% Muslim (Bosniaks), 98% Europeans (Slovenes)
Montenegro - 40% Muslim (Roma, Albanians, Bosniaks), 60% European (Serbs, Croats)
Greece - 15% Muslim (Albanians, Turks), 85% Europeans (Greeks)
Romania - 10% Muslim (Roma, Arabs), 90% Europeans (Romanians, Hungarians, Serbs, Bulgarians)

Was there a point in there somewhere or just ad hominems?

Was there a point in there somewhere or just ad hominems?
If you only continued reading you would find that i have wrote this:

Influence of Turkey on Balkans.

The argument is that they were partially responsible. Partial responsibility is enough to show that Turkey has played a major part in the culture and history of Europe and not just in attempts to conquer.

The only thing that turkey did to fuel the Renaissance was conquer the Byzantine Empire, sending a bunch of Greek geniuses westward.

The only thing that turkey did to fuel the Renaissance was conquer the Byzantine Empire, sending a bunch of Greek geniuses westward.

You aren't just talking about political effect here. Or you shouldn't be. Effects of Turkish culture MUST be considered. There is no doubt they've had a profound involvement in European culture as a whole. It's a rather bizarre argument to suggest otherwise.

If you only continued reading you would find that i have wrote this:

You mean you had to explain it becuase you didn't actually make an argument in the first post. Meanwhile, nothing about your post actually evidences that influence. It gives some information, but it makes no connections. You were good enough to include a bit of logical fallacy to entertain us however. Thank you for that.

You aren't just talking about political effect here. Or you shouldn't be. Effects of Turkish culture MUST be considered. There is no doubt they've had a profound involvement in European culture as a whole. It's a rather bizarre argument to suggest otherwise.

What effects have the had on Western and Central Europe? Besides trying to conquer them, I mean?

What effects have the had on Western and Central Europe? Besides trying to conquer them, I mean?

You want me to quote back 44 pages or would that just be encouraging you to be lazy and not do the work on your own? We've been giving examples for several hundred posts. Pretending that Turkish culture has had no effect on European culture is like claiming that Europe has had no effect on American culture.

NO:

1) Different culture
2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
3) Its Capital is in Asia
4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history

Diskuss...


its capital is part in asia part europe

what "people regarded it as in history" is irrelevent;england are hated by most of the world and so are america yet they are still the two most powerful countries in the world atm

the other points have been dealt with

You mean you had to explain it becuase you didn't actually make an argument in the first post. Meanwhile, nothing about your post actually evidences that influence. It gives some information, but it makes no connections. You were good enough to include a bit of logical fallacy to entertain us however. Thank you for that.
Grow up

its capital is part in asia part europe
Nope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara

You want me to quote back 44 pages or would that just be encouraging you to be lazy and not do the work on your own? We've been giving examples for several hundred posts. Pretending that Turkish culture has had no effect on European culture is like claiming that Europe has had no effect on American culture.
Turkish culture has efect on Europe even today. Wars in Bosnia and Kosovo are the best examples.

I've counted two things turkey has given Europe: war, and kebabs. I'm not going through 10,000 pages of posts.

I've counted two things turkey has given Europe: war, and kebabs. I'm not going through 10,000 pages of posts.
And borek, don't forget borek!:D

I've counted two things turkey has given Europe: war, and kebabs. I'm not going through 10,000 pages of posts.

Well, given that you can't actually count the number of pages in this thread and are off by about 2,000,000%, forgive me if I don't consider you a reliable resource. Do you think it's possible that you're oversimplifying and that your hypothesis is based on uneducated assumption rather than research?

Grow up

Oh, look more ad hominems. That is a profound statement. I'm overwhelmed by this quality of argument. You have completely swayed me.

Well, given that you can't actually count the number of pages in this thread and are off by about 2,000,000%, forgive if I don't consider you a reliable resource. Do you think it's possible that you're oversimplifying and that your hypothesis is based on uneducated assumption rather than research?
Nope. He was right, every educated person will tell you that.

Turkish culture has efect on Europe even today. Wars in Bosnia and Kosovo are the best examples.

One of the best things they have in common with Europe, in fact. The genocide in Africa can be almost completely attributed to European politics. It's interesting how much effort people are willing to put into not seeing both sides of the equation.

Are there problems in Turkey? Yep. Does that make it less European? Nope. Not at all. Turkey is undoubtedly partly European and partly Asian. To deny either is to pure and simply deny evidence.

Oh, look more ad hominems. That is a profound statement. I'm overwhelmed by this quality of argument. You have completely swayed me.
What can i say... i am good at swaying...

One of the best things they have in common with Europe, in fact. The genocide in Africa can be almost completely attributed to European politics. It's interesting how much effort people are willing to put into not seeing both sides of the equation.

Are there problems in Turkey? Yep. Does that make it less European? Nope. Not at all. Turkey is undoubtedly partly European and partly Asian. To deny either is to pure and simply deny evidence.
Turks have close ties with Europe, but they are not part of the Europe. They have close ties only for two reasons:
1. They conquered Greece and big part of South Europe in past, and with that it's culture and customs.
2. They are bordering Europe.

Turks have close ties with Europe, but they are not part of the Europe.

ReallY? Are you sure? I think I read somewhere that 3% of Turkey proper is in Europe. Oh, wait, that was in the OP where they were arguing that it's not in Europe. But hey, let's pretend it's not actually in Europe even though it actually is. Quick question - if Spain decided to become the 51rst state of the US, would it stop being a part of Europe? Seesm to me that it would still be part of Europe and part of the US, making the US both North American and European. Turkey is the same. Turkey is partly European and partly Asian. There is no doubt of this.

Turks have close ties with Europe, but they are not part of the Europe. They have close ties only for two reasons:
1. They conquered Greece and big part of South Europe in past, and with that it's culture and customs.
2. They are bordering Europe.

They are bordering Europe? Last I checked that was an inaccurate statement. Did they give up the land they hold in Europe yesterday and I just missed that it was in the news?

would u say Russia is Europian?
it isnt but because it has economic and political power, we say it is.

turkey isnt europian and doesnt even have any real power

They are bordering Europe? Last I checked that was an inaccurate statement. Did they give up the land they hold in Europe yesterday and I just missed that it was in the news?
If you take an closer look at maps of Europe, 98% of them won't have small part that belong to the Turkey today.

ReallY? Are you sure? I think I read somewhere that 3% of Turkey proper is in Europe. Oh, wait, that was in the OP where they were arguing that it's not in Europe. But hey, let's pretend it's not actually in Europe even though it actually is. Quick question - if Spain decided to become the 51rst state of the US, would it stop being a part of Europe? Seesm to me that it would still be part of Europe and part of the US, making the US both North American and European. Turkey is the same. Turkey is partly European and partly Asian. There is no doubt of this.
If we follow that logic, than we could say that China is bordering Europe (Russia)

would u say Russia is Europian?
it isnt but because it has economic and political power, we say it is.

turkey isnt europian and doesnt even have any real power
Russia is part of the Europe! Russians originated from Vikings. Then they mixed themselves with Slavs. And Vikings and Slavs are Europeans.

If you take an closer look at maps of Europe, 98% of them won't have small part that belong to the Turkey today.
So because of various reasons that leave them off of maps, that changes the geographical boundaries of Europe? Interesting.

Here's a quick search of google for "Europe map". Of the two that came up (there were actually three maps, but only two had working links), exactly two included part of Turkey in Europe.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mytravelguide.com/g/maps/Europe-map.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.mytravelguide.com/travel-tools/maps/Europe-map.php&h=662&w=738&sz=57&tbnid=vvhm-e7Rym7_vM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deurope%2Bmap&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.only-maps.com/europe-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.only-maps.com/europe-map.html&h=564&w=700&sz=126&tbnid=tVTsebJdLqLG0M:&tbnh=111&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deurope%2Bmap&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2

Here are the links provided by google -
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm
http://www.bugbog.com/maps/europe/europe_map.html

Except for the link with no maps and the link for a travel site, I don't see anyone eliminating Turkey from Europe.

If we follow that logic, than we could say that China is bordering Europe (Russia)

Follow what logic? I'm talking about the continent of Europe which contains land in Turkey proper. How does that relate to China? Perhaps if WE're going to follow THAT LOGIC, we should start by actually talking about the logic I offered. The logic I offered is that TURKEY does not border Europe because it is partially in Europe.

Russia is part of the Europe! Russians originated from Vikings. Then they mixed themselves with Slavs. And Vikings and Slavs are Europeans.

Europe is a continent. It's not defined by where we can find white people. By the argument that where the vikings descendants are, I guess we must include the US in Europe since there's a whole mess of us here.

So because of various reasons that leave them off of maps, that changes the geographical boundaries of Europe? Interesting.

Here's a quick search of google for "Europe map". Of the two that came up (there were actually three maps, but only two had working links), exactly two included part of Turkey in Europe.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mytravelguide.com/g/maps/Europe-map.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.mytravelguide.com/travel-tools/maps/Europe-map.php&h=662&w=738&sz=57&tbnid=vvhm-e7Rym7_vM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deurope%2Bmap&start=3&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=3

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.only-maps.com/europe-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.only-maps.com/europe-map.html&h=564&w=700&sz=126&tbnid=tVTsebJdLqLG0M:&tbnh=111&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deurope%2Bmap&start=2&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=2

Here are the links provided by google -
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm
http://www.bugbog.com/maps/europe/europe_map.html

Except for the link with no maps and the link for a travel site, I don't see anyone eliminating Turkey from Europe.
1st map: it can clearly be seen that Turkey isn't part of Europe.
2nd map: like i said 98% of maps
3rd map: like i said 98% of maps
4th map: on this map, even Kazakhstan is part of Europe.

Ok, this thread spans some 11 pages filled with little more than personal "bitching" either pro or against Turkey becoming a EU member with people either seeking to depreciate the state or pushing it rabbidly on a self-importance agenda. I'd rather look at the PRESENT facts ALONE than meddle in debatable historical issues. For example, today the good will and collaboration between France and Germany is one of the major motors of EU unity and evolution, but should we go back just 60 years in history they should simply hate each others' guts. Or whatabout France and England? The EU is about *putting aside* your past greviencies in an effort to provide what's best for the entire region's people.

So, here come the facts:
------------------------------
1. Why Turkey joining the EU is a GOOD IDEA (TM):
a) Its geographical position provides an important commercial hub between Europe and Asia. The resulting rise in commerce and economical growth will be for more than simply the Turks to tap into.
b) Joining the EU will provide a critical stabilization force both within Turkey itself and for the entire east mediterranean region (see the Cyprus issue, Greece-Turkey contentions, the Balkans fragile mosaic etc.). A bonus on top of this, is that all states involved can relax their military and defense budgets to the great gain of the people and the economy.
c) Providing the EU with a "foothold" in Asia, it will enhance its own strategic role as envisioned by the european ideals (although for all practical reasons, EU is still a passive ans somewhat schizofrenic observer in the international playground).
d) Having its own growing economy *within* the EU, Turkey can put an end on the disrupting immigration stream that now saturates the "post-industrial" western european economies in continuous "down-scaling".

2. Why Turkey CANNOT join the EU "automagically":
a) The military "elite" still plays a key role in the political decision making. Not exactly the reassuring democratic principles the EU aspires to...
b) Censorship and legal action against political / historical / ethnic dissenters is not a thing of the past... getting jailed in Turkey for "lack of turkishness" is very real and actually rather common for people going "against the grain".
c) The entire penal system has to be overhauled and rebuilt from bottom up to modern "european" standards (inhuman prisons, death penalty, judiciary system... you name it).
d) Turkey's neighboring nations still see it mostly as an aggressive opponent. Turkey wants in the EU while still not recognising a EU member (Cyprus) and while making only nominal efforts at diplomatically resolving contentions with another EU member and neighbor (Greece).

3. Why rapidly enlarging even more the EU might NOT be a GOOD IDEA(tm):
The recent expansive boom of the EU, bringing member states from 15 up to 25, has shown to us all EU citizens it's not only roses. Even back at 15 members, decision making was a tough business trying to balance everything to please as much as possible while hurting as less as possible. Now, with 25 members, this joggling has come to near impossibility with most of the newcomers (and quite a few of the "old boys") having a selfish "what's in it for me?" approach. If we keep expanding the EU based only upon a nominal "good will", without a more efficient central organization and - most important of all - keeping the actual citizens out of the loop and with no effective "european conscience" rather than their nation-state one, we are inevitably leading ourselves to an EMPTY SHELL organization that embraces everyone and embodies nothing! Do we really want a "european UN", where everybody exchanges "good will", diplomatic smiles and take photos while stabbing each other on the back? Or do we want to *really* join forces for the good of the *whole* europe instead of antagonizing each other over petty issues?!

I personally suggest that until and unless we solve our organizational problems with a REAL constitution that empowers the european citizen (instead of that marketing-and-banking travesty that powers that be tried to stuff us with) we should freeze all expansion efforts. Then, wannabe-EU members can either agree to that set of ideals and rules and be welcomed aboard or stay out of it.

Follow what logic? I'm talking about the continent of Europe which contains land in Turkey proper. How does that relate to China? Perhaps if WE're going to follow THAT LOGIC, we should start by actually talking about the logic I offered. The logic I offered is that TURKEY does not border Europe because it is partially in Europe.
If Turkey is European only because it holds small part on Balkans, than entire Russia is Europe. I hope that you know that Russia is bordering China. Rest figure out yourself!

Europe is a continent. It's not defined by where we can find white people. By the argument that where the vikings descendants are, I guess we must include the US in Europe since there's a whole mess of us here.
By your definition Europe doesn't even exist - only Eurasia. Then Vietnam, China, India and South Korea should be part of EU!

1st map: it can clearly be seen that Turkey isn't part of Europe.
2nd map: like i said 98% of maps
3rd map: like i said 98% of maps
4th map: on this map, even Kazakhstan is part of Europe.
1. Really? There isn't a part of Turkey that is listed as part of Europe? I guess if one ignores that there is, you're correct.
2. Really? So I just happened to find the 2% as the first several maps I found. How interesting.

1. Really? There isn't a part of Turkey that is listed as part of Europe? I guess if one ignores that there is, you're correct.
2. Really? So I just happened to find the 2% as the first several maps I found. How interesting.
1st - Algiers, Tunis...
2nd - i guess you were lucky:D

By your definition Europe doesn't even exist - only Eurasia. Then Vietnam, China, India and South Korea should be part of EU!

By what definition? You keep arguing strawmen. There is Europe and there is Asia, BY MY DEFINITION. Turkey is a part of both. Seriously, can you not address my argument so you keep having to make things up? Show where I said there is no Europe or Asia?

1st - Algieres, Tunis...
2nd - i guess you were lucky:D

So are you ready to admit you're full of crap yet? Turkey is partly in Europe by nearly every geographical standard. Or would you prefer to argue that I'm lucky?

Please link to the search that provides the 147 other maps that evidence your 98% figure. You admit 3 of my maps at least evidence my claims (the fourth does as well, but you're having trouble with your eyes).

If Turkey is European only because it holds small part on Balkans, than entire Russia is Europe. I hope that you know that Russia is bordering China. Rest figure out yourself!

I'm not arguing that all of Turkey is in Europe so you're strawman falls apart their. I didn't say Turkey is European. I said it is partly European and partly Asian. It is a part of both continents. Thus bordering Turkey would not make you bordering Europe. However, my ARGUMENT was that Turkey is partly on the continent of Europe. Your argument was that it only bordered on Europe. You're declaring it entirely Asian. Which of us is arguing that being mostly on a particular continent makes you totally on that continent? Seems like you.

By what definition? You keep arguing strawmen. There is Europe and there is Asia, BY MY DEFINITION. Turkey is a part of both. Seriously, can you not address my argument so you keep having to make things up? Show where I said there is no Europe or Asia?
Nope. Turkey is part of Asia. It's religion (yeah), customs, way of life, history and culture are allien to europe.
Let me ask you this - you are living in USA. Why do you care is Turkey Europe or not?
Have you ever been to Turkey? I was last summer. I tried to think of it as part Europe, but simply i just couldn't! Little shops, mosques and silly hats don't belong to europe.

I'm not arguing that all of Turkey is in Europe so you're strawman falls apart their. I didn't say Turkey is European. I said it is partly European and partly Asian. It is a part of both continents. Thus bordering Turkey would not make you bordering Europe. However, my ARGUMENT was that Turkey is partly on the continent of Europe. Your argument was that it only bordered on Europe. You're declaring it entirely Asian. Which of us is arguing that being mostly on a particular continent makes you totally on that continent? Seems like you.
True. Turkey is entirely Asian.

Nope. Turkey is part of Asia. It's religion (yeah), customs, way of life, history and culture are allien to europe.
Let me ask you this - you are living in USA. Why do you care is Turkey Europe or not?
Have you ever been to Turkey? I was last summer. I tried to think of it as part Europe, but simply i just couldn't! Little shops, mosques and silly hats don't belong to europe.

This is an intellectual discussion about what continent Turkey is on and you're losing. That's why I care.

Xenophobia is not an argument. It is partly European and you have to close your eyes to claim otherwise. It is clearly partly on the continent of Europe. In your mind what percentage is sufficient to be partly European? Turkey has lots in common with Eastern Europe. I believe what bothers you is that it's not exactly like Western Europe. Interestingly neither is Russia or much of Eastern Europe.

True. Turkey is entirely Asian.

So you admit, that by your logic, the borders of the continent, a geographical designation, changes based on the political climate? That you can ignore the fact that a nation is actually on the European continent because you don't want it to be?

This is an intellectual discussion about what continent Turkey is on and you're losing. That's why I care.

Xenophobia is not an argument. It is partly European and you have to close your eyes to claim otherwise. It is clearly partly on the continent of Europe. In your mind what percentage is sufficient to be partly European? Turkey has lots in common with Eastern Europe. I believe what bothers you is that it's not exactly like Western Europe. Interestingly neither is Russia or much of Eastern Europe.
Turkey - 97% of it's territory is in Asia. It's capital city is in Asia, Turks originate from Asia.
Where did you get an idea that Turks want to be part of Europe?

So you admit, that by your logic, the borders of the continent, a geographical designation, changes based on the political climate? That you can ignore the fact that a nation is actually on the European continent because you don't want it to be?
Big part of Russia is in Asia. Do you think that Russians are Asians?

Turkey - 97% of it's territory is in Asia. It's capital city is in Asia, Turks originate from Asia.
Where did you get an idea that Turks want to be part of Europe?

Where did I say that? Do you know how to discuss what people say instead of simply making things up to argue about? Some turks originate from Asia. Some originate from Europe. I think those who were born and descend from people in that 3% in Europe might be a little surprised to find out that you don't consider them European enough, however.

97% of its territory is in Asia? So now you're ADMITTING that 3% of it is in Europe. I'd call that progress. Since a minute ago you were claiming it's entirely in Asia.

Big part of Russia is in Asia. Do you think that Russians are Asians?

I think that people from Europe are European and people from Asia are Asian. What is so complicated by that? I don't have some xenophobic need to deny reality and call people from Europe Asians or vice versa.

Where did I say that? Do you know how to discuss what people say instead of simply making things up to argue about? Some turks originate from Asia. Some originate from Europe. I think those who were born and descend from people in that 3% in Europe might be a little surprised to find out that you don't consider them European enough, however.

97% of its territory is in Asia? So now you're ADMITTING that 3% of it is in Europe. I'd call that progress. Since a minute ago you were claiming it's entirely in Asia.
Who said that other 3% are in Europe?

Who said that other 3% are in Europe?

So 97% is in Asia? Where is the other 3% if not Europe? Africa?

I think that people from Europe are European and people from Asia are Asian. What is so complicated by that? I don't have some xenophobic need to deny reality and call people from Europe Asians or vice versa.
Progres at least - Turks are Asians, and that is whole the point of the entire thread!

So 97% is in Asia? Where is the other 3% if not Europe? Africa?
Northern Asia:D, or better - Little Asia:D :D

Progres at least - Turks are Asians, and that is whole the point of entire thread!

Turkey has nearly half a million people who live in and are born in Europe. Turkey is partly European. We are not talking about some people in Turkey. WE are talking about Turkey.

Here's a trick, read the thread title - "IS TURKEY EUROPEAN?" It doesn't say, "Are Turks European?", now does it?

Northern Asia:D, or better - Little Asia:D :D

Uh-huh. Does that usually work? You're wrong, but so long as you don't actually say it out loud no one will notice?

Turkey has nearly half a million people who live in and are born in Europe. Turkey is partly European. We are not talking about some people in Turkey. WE are talking about Turkey.

Here's a trick, read the thread title - "IS TURKEY EUROPEAN?" It doesn't say, "Are Turks European?", now does it?
500.000 - 73.000.000 aren't much...
Well it is kind a hard to ask some country are you European. For Example "hay, Argentina, are you part of Europe?" i dont believe that land would say something. It is the PEOPLE that count! If Turks are Europeans - Turkey is European. if Turks are Asians - Turkey is Asian.
And thiat is point of entire thread. If you didn't understand that...

Uh-huh. Does that usually work? You're wrong, but so long as you don't actually say it out loud no one will notice?
You must be private detective!

*Runs through thread shouting*

Transcontinental nation!

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

500.000 - 73.000.000 aren't much...
Well it is kind a hard to ask some country are you European. For Example "hay, Argentina, are you part of Europe?" i dont believe that land would say something. It is the PEOPLE that count! If Turks are Europeans - Turkey is European. if Turks are Asians - Turkey is Asian.
And thiat is point of entire thread. If you didn't understand that...
No one is asking the country. It was asked whether the coutnry is? And given that Europe is a continent and Turkey resides partly on that continent, it appears the answer is obvious. The problem is that some people seem to be afraid if they admit this then Turkey will have an opportunity to get into the EU (which is a seperate topic). It is no secret that the thread starter wants to deny the part of Turkey that is in Europe because of a fear of Turks. The question is still one of geography it is absolutely clear that Turkey resides partly in Europe along with half a million Turkish citizens. You might be surprised to learn this, but some members of the EU would consider half a million people to be quite a lot.

If Turkey is partly in Europe, it is partly in Europe. If it is partly in Asia it is partly in Asia. The people are not one or the other, each person is one or the other. You can't just declare the Europeans in Turkey to be Asian, nor can you declare the Asians in Turkey to be European. The only one who needs a homogenous declaration is you. You want to deny the people and turn them into a single group and declare them Asian. "PEOPLE" are made up of "PERSONS" and each person resides on one continent or the other. It's sad that you would deny them this.

Turkey has never been a part of europe. Even a little kid can see the difrences in culture and live style.
Just because a realy small part of it lays in Europe it isn't european. And as long they keep being so consevative and small minded it has nothing to searche here in europe.

You must be private detective!

You're an excellent debator. Uh-huh. Let's see. Strawmen. Ad hominems. Changing the subject. SImply making crap up whenever you're nailed. Yep, I'm very impressed. Meanwhile, 3% of Turkey is in Europe and half a million Turkish citizens are European and residing in both Europe and Turkey. But hey, go ahead, now's the time for another fallacy. Which one this time?

No one is asking the country. It was asked whether the coutnry is? And given that Europe is a continent and Turkey resides partly on that continent, it appears the answer is obvious. The problem is that some people seem to be afraid if they admit this then Turkey will have an opportunity to get into the EU (which is a seperate topic). It is no secret that the thread starter wants to deny the part of Turkey that is in Europe because of a fear of Turks. The question is still one of geography it is absolutely clear that Turkey resides partly in Europe along with half a million Turkish citizens. You might be surprised to learn this, but some members of the EU would consider half a million people to be quite a lot.

If Turkey is partly in Europe, it is partly in Europe. If it is partly in Asia it is partly in Asia. The people are not one or the other, each person is one or the other. You can't just declare the Europeans in Turkey to be Asian, nor can you declare the Asians in Turkey to be European. The only one who needs a homogenous declaration is you. You want to deny the people and turn them into a single group and declare them Asian. "PEOPLE" are made up of "PERSONS" and each person resides on one continent or the other. It's sad that you would deny them this.
Turks are Asians, and they can be born in Germany, Bosnia, Holland... they are still Asians.

*Runs through thread shouting*

Transcontinental nation!

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Of course it is. But shhhhhh... you're hurting the brains of those who are afraid that admitting this will grant the Turkey some kind of automatic pass into the EU.

You're an excellent debator. Uh-huh. Let's see. Strawmen. Ad hominems. Changing the subject. SImply making crap up whenever you're nailed. Yep, I'm very impressed. Meanwhile, 3% of Turkey is in Europe and half a million Turkish citizens are European and residing in both Europe and Turkey. But hey, go ahead, now's the time for another fallacy. Which one this time?
Nailed? Who? I guess attack is the best defence...

Turkey has never been a part of europe. Even a little kid can see the difrences in culture and live style.

So... Been to southern Bulgaria lately?

So... Been to southern Bulgaria lately?
Wich is populated by the TURKS!

Turks are Asians, and they can be born in Germany, Bosnia, Holland... they are still Asians.

Keep declaring it to be true, and you'll be right. I'm sure of it. Forget arguments.

Now, so you're claiming that if a person is living in Europe as did their parents and their parents and their parents and so on for as long as is recorded, they are not European?

Of course it is. But shhhhhh... you're hurting the brains of those who are afraid that admitting this will grant the Turkey some kind of automatic pass into the EU.
Sorry, I'll try to not do it again. :( My bad.

:p

Wich is populated by the TURKS!
:eek:
Did anybody tell the Bulgarians of this travesty? You'd think they would be interested to know this.

Nailed? Who? I guess attack is the best defence...

I guess not responding to arguments is the best defense. Are you still claiming that 3% of Turkey is not in Europe? You've dropped the argument several times, because I nailed you when you admitted that only 97% of Turkey is in Asia. Yes, it's a debate. And in a debate where one person is using facts with links, figures with links, and exact definitions and the other has no support and uses only logical fallacies, the first person wins the debate. That's one of the quirks of debate.

Keep declaring it to be true, and you'll be right. I'm sure of it. Forget arguments.

Now, so you're claiming that if one is living in Europe as did their parents and their parents and their parents and so on for as long as is recorded, they are not European?
Are you claiming that some Afro-American whose family is living in US for 300 years is Euro-American ( i think i invented this), just because that is where he lives?

:eek:
Did anybody tell the Bulgarians of this travesty? You'd think they would be interested to know this.
Since Bulgarian said that to me, i think they already know...

Turkey has never been a part of europe. Even a little kid can see the difrences in culture and live style.
Just because a realy small part of it lays in Europe it isn't european. And as long they keep being so consevative and small minded it has nothing to searche here in europe.

Does that mean Leicester (in the UK) is not in Europe? I used to walk past a mosque every morning on my way to work... I used to watch the Diwali Festival of Lights parade... it is a city built on differences in culture and lifestyle.

But, it is STILL in Europe. And - the reason for that is - Europe is a matter of geography, not ethnicity or nationality.

And, if Europe can redraw it's borders to include a nation that is partly 'European' already, I don't see the problem.

Are you claiming that some Afro-American whose family is living in US for 300 years is Euro-American ( i think i invented this), just because that is where he lives?

No, he's an American. He's not an African. Another strawman. Where did I say "euro-American" or anything like it? Are you claim that black people are not Americans after 400 years?

Meanwhile, when did the Europeans in the part of Turkey that is in Europe move there? Where did they come from? Considering that the part is argued to be a part of Greece at times, it's questionable whether you have any clue what you're talking about.

Since Bulgarian said that to me, i think they already know...

A Bulgarian or all of them? More generalizing. You continue to amuse me.

I guess not responding to arguments is the best defense. Are you still claiming that 3% of Turkey is not in Europe? You've dropped the argument several times, because I nailed you when you admitted that only 97% of Turkey is in Asia. Yes, it's a debate. And in a debate where one person is using facts with links, figures with links, and exact definitions and the other has no support and uses only logical fallacies, the first person wins the debate. That's one of the quirks of debate.
http://www.biblenews1.com/wmap/asia.gif
http://www.articque.com/FR04images/fondEuroPop.gif
http://www.ifmpan.poznan.pl/zp10/auxet2/pictures/Europe.jpg
http://www.watermap.com/assets/images/europe_image2.gif
http://www.01consulting.net/newsletter/Map-Europe-big.GIF
http://www.chevron.com/operations/images/map_europe_all.gif

Since Bulgarian said that to me, i think they already know...
Well, I'm shocked...

By the way, do they consider themselves Bulgarian or Turkish? Does anyone among them have Bulgarian nationality?

It's a good thing that culture by definition is immune to outside influencs too, or else you'd might have seen to see traces of Turkish culture anywhere else in Bulgaria.

:rolleyes:

A Bulgarian or all of them? More generalizing. You continue to amuse me.
If i speak with an Bulgarian, i believe that he knows about his country better than i do.

Well, I'm shocked...

By the way, do they consider themselves Bulgarian or Turkish? Does anyone among them have Bulgarian nationality?

It's a good thing that culture by definition is immune to outside influencs too, or else you'd might have seen to see traces of Turkish culture anywhere else in Bulgaria.

:rolleyes:
You can find traces of Arab culture in Spain, does it make less European, or does it make Arabs Europeans?

http://www.biblenews1.com/wmap/asia.gif
http://www.articque.com/FR04images/fondEuroPop.gif
http://www.ifmpan.poznan.pl/zp10/auxet2/pictures/Europe.jpg
http://www.watermap.com/assets/images/europe_image2.gif
http://www.01consulting.net/newsletter/Map-Europe-big.GIF
http://www.chevron.com/operations/images/map_europe_all.gif

What was the search you used? I need to look and see if you used most of the results or just the ones from reliable sources like BibleNews and Chevron.

If i speak with an Bulgarian, i believe that he knows about his country better than i do.

So one person decides for the entire country? Good to know.

What was the search you used? I need to look and see if you used most of the results or just the ones from reliable sources like BibleNews and Chevron.
Use Goggle

You can find traces of Arab culture in Spain, does it make less European, or does it make Arabs Europeans?
Which makes an excellent argument against your claims. Not all Arabs are European, but if European culture incorporates traces of Arab culture, you simply can't claim that being Arab makes you automatically not European. Do you usually support the arguments you are claiming or wrong or was this an isolated case?

So one person decides for the entire country? Good to know.
What, are you saying that you know about his country better than he?

http://www.biblenews1.com/wmap/asia.gif
http://www.articque.com/FR04images/fondEuroPop.gif
http://www.ifmpan.poznan.pl/zp10/auxet2/pictures/Europe.jpg
http://www.watermap.com/assets/images/europe_image2.gif
http://www.01consulting.net/newsletter/Map-Europe-big.GIF
http://www.chevron.com/operations/images/map_europe_all.gif
Iceland is missing in some maps... Russia is there in some...

See? It's all which definition you choose to go by. It's a pointless debate, really.

Use Goggle

I did. And I told you what my search was. What search words did you use? My search had the first four maps including part of Turkey. One of five of yours, at least, included part of Turkey and most of them were vague in terms of national boundaries. Is there a reason you don't want to give up your search terms?

Iceland is missing in some maps... Russia is there in some...

See? It's all which definition you choose to go by. It's a pointless debate, really.
As long as you're seeing the point it's OK.

What, are you saying that you know about his country better than he?

No. I'm saying that I'd prefer to judge where people are from and their culture by studying. Not by letting a single person tell me what I'm supposed to think. Meanwhile, I don't even know that the person you reference even exists. You've haven't proven to be particularly reliable.

I did. And I told you what my search was. What search words did you use? My search had the first four maps including part of Turkey. One of five of yours, at least, included part of Turkey and most of them were vague in terms of national boundaries. Is there a reason you don't want to give up your search terms?
Asia, Europe

Iceland is missing in some maps... Russia is there in some...

See? It's all which definition you choose to go by. It's a pointless debate, really.
Russia is part of Europe, as Iceland is, but Turkey isn't!

As long as you're seeing the point it's OK.
...

Sorry.
What's the point?

As long as you're seeing the point it's OK.

The point that you picked 5 maps that don't all support your point out of n maps while claiming that 98% of maps deny Turkey being a part of Europe? The point that I took the first four maps in my search and all included part of Turkey? The point that you admitted that 3% of Turkey is in Europe yet you're still trying to argue that it's not? Which point?

No. I'm saying that I'd prefer to judge where people are from and their culture by studying. Not by letting a single person tell me what I'm supposed to think. Meanwhile, I don't even know that the person you reference even exists. You've haven't proven to be particularly reliable.
What? I cant believe this! Prove that you live in US, prove that you aren't Turk and prove that Turks are Europeans!

Asia, Europe

None of those links appear on the first three pages. I don't believe you. Can you link to your search?

...

Sorry.
What's the point?
There is no Turkey on the maps!

What? I cant believe this! Prove that you live in US, prove that you aren't Turk and prove that Turks are Europeans!

Ha. Amusingly, only the last one would be germaine to the conversation. I'm not claiming that my personal experiences are evidence. Only you are. Meanwhile, Turkey still resides partly in Europe and partly in Asia and part of the Turkish population is undoubtely Europeans who were born in Europe and Turkey as were their parents and their parents' parents, etc.

None of those links appear on the first three pages. I don't believe you. Can you link to your search?
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=sh&lr=lang_en%7Clang_hr%7Clang_sr&imgsz=xxlarge&q=asia&btnG=Pretraga


http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=sh&lr=lang_en%7Clang_hr%7Clang_sr&imgsz=xxlarge&q=europe&btnG=Pretraga

There is no Turkey on the maps!

Really? I see the part of Turkey that is in Europe in at least one of those maps. Meanwhile, you still haven't given up the search that resulted in those maps. Unless you're admitting that you had to go through pages of links to find those maps. I showed you my search and that the FIRST four links included part of Turkey in Europe.

Russia is part of Europe, as Iceland is, but Turkey isn't!
You get that from seeing maps, some where Iceland is missing, some where Russia is missing, and some where Turkey is missing?

There are maps of Europe (http://www.traveldocs.com/images/europe_b.jpg)where Turkey (http://www.explorecrete.com/crete-maps/images/europe.gif)is included also, remember?

(Ye Gods, what happened to Norway in that last map?)

So no, there really is no point. But such is the fate of a pointless debate ;)

Ha. Amusingly, only the last one would be germaine to the conversation. I'm not claiming that my personal experiences are evidence. Only you are. Meanwhile, Turkey still resides partly in Europe and partly in Asia and part of the Turkish population is undoubtely Europeans who were born in Europe and Turkey as were their parents and their parents' parents, etc.
No, they are not.

You get that from seeing maps, some where Iceland is missing, some where Russia is missing, and some where Turkey is missing?

There are maps of Europe (http://www.traveldocs.com/images/europe_b.jpg)where Turkey (http://www.explorecrete.com/crete-maps/images/europe.gif)is included also, remember?

(Ye Gods, what happened to Norway in that last map?)

So no, there really is no point. But such is the fate of a pointless debate ;)
On that maps we can se Algeria, Tunis and Morocco, are you saying that they are part of Europe?
Also, there is no Norway on second.

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=sh&lr=lang_en%7Clang_hr%7Clang_sr&imgsz=xxlarge&q=asia&btnG=Pretraga


http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=sh&lr=lang_en%7Clang_hr%7Clang_sr&imgsz=xxlarge&q=europe&btnG=Pretraga

Perfect. Let's look at the first results from the second link.

http://www.cultureconnect.com/maps/europe.jpg
Includes Turkey

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.traveldocs.com/images/europe_b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.traveldocs.com/europe.htm&h=1049&w=800&sz=66&tbnid=Je9zdm7TiiOxaM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=114&hl=sh&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deurope%26imgsz%3Dxxlarge%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dsh%26lr%3Dlang_en%7Clang_hr%7Clang_sr%26sa %3DG
Includes Turkey

http://maps.bzzt.net/europe.jpg
Vague but includes Turkey

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/paradise/snapshots/europe.gif
Includes Turkey

http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/blaue_europe.jpg
Includes Turkey

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/c_europe_pol96.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe.html&h=1206&w=982&sz=237&tbnid=elGaZBLzgLNxdM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=122&hl=sh&start=5&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deurope%26imgsz%3Dxxlarge%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dsh%26lr%3Dlang_en%7Clang_hr%7Clang_sr%26sa %3DG
Includes Turkey

That's the first five. 98%, huh? So far I've listed the first nine, four from my search and five from yours, and all have included Turkey. Seems like unless one only accepts maps without Turkey, then the evidence is all on my side.

On that maps we can se Algeria, Tunis and Morocco, are you saying that they are part of Europe?
I'm saying you can't use maps to prove the point, since the definitions different mapmakers use differ from one another.

Edit: RANDOM maps

I'm saying you can't use maps to prove the point, since the definitions different mapmakers use differ from one another.
true.

No, they are not.

Were they European before they became part of Turkey? I mean, if I close my eyes I can deny that there are clouds in the sky today over Illinois, but it doesn't make it true.