NationStates Jolt Archive

Couldnt this be seen as a way to gradually spread liberal democratic values around the world without bombing the shit out of people?


From what I've seen in some countries where turkish emigrants live, they usually have little appreciation for the social practices of the country and just do whatever they want without respecting the residents.
So I think their membership in the UE would be more of a way for them to impose their cultural values instead of embracing democracy (which they don't do often).

All very true, and also highly irrelevant to the central issues. Europe has adopted aspects of behaviour from many different cultures but this does not in any way imply a compatability between the cultures.

Turkey is still essentially a Sharia nation. I know that Ataturk did all that was in the power of any one man to drag Turkey into the Western Civilization, but he failed. Turkish life is still dominated by Islam and Islamic codes. This makes it impractical for them to adopt EU rules and legal systems.

There is no value judgement being made here, just a recognition of an essential difference in the culture of Turkey to the culture of the EU.

Yeah, it's pretty sad that Ataturk's vision didn't quite work out. But the fact remains that the Turkish people (as well as their culture) are a mix of many different things. They aren't some entirely unique entity, as Nordland makes them out to be.

but turkish and greek culture is probably really similar
No, not really.

Geographically, not European. Population and culture are part Turkish, but that's illegitimate.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be in the EU either.
Yeah, the Northern part is indeed not a legitimate state. The part of the island in the EU is only the Greek one. And I second you on that.

Yeah, it's pretty sad that Ataturk's vision didn't quite work out. But the fact remains that the Turkish people (as well as their culture) are a mix of many different things. They aren't some entirely unique entity, as Nordland makes them out to be.
Which, like AB said, remains irrelevant.

Which, like AB said, remains irrelevant.

I knew it was irrelevant to the topic at hand when I was writing the original post. Still, I felt I needed to present some facts to Nordland, who has stated (in so many words) that the Turkish people are some sort of special entity who are in no way tied to Europe.

I knew it was irrelevant to the topic at hand when I was writing the original post. Still, I felt I needed to present some facts to Nordland, who has stated (in so many words) that the Turkish people are some sort of special entity who are in no way tied to Europe.
Currently they are less tied to Europe than they were at a time. He is not wrong, nor is he entirely correct though. Either way, the EU will ultimately base its decision on how much Turkey manages to live up to its exigencies, if Turkey can maintain such a structure, if the EU can handle such enlargement and if the citizens are okay with it (right now, the lack of accountability in the "democratic" EU is appalling...so this issue will be put to referenda).

hahahaha....turkey is as much european as america is...!

Really? America has 3% of the land inside of its national boundaries inside Europe? Could you explain how you figure that?

Not this Turkey...
http://www.thewhiskystore.de/usa/wturkey/wildtlege_2.jpg

Firstly I disagree with your insinuation that racism is behind the objections,

Among many people it is. Not saying all that do object do so for that reason, but many. Europe still has many rascists, even among the more educated classes, just normally they hide it under other objections, some which seem perfectly fine.


I think you'll find it has more to do with Turkey's illegal occupation of cyprus territory and their human rights record.

Which they would have to sort out before they joined the EU. And many would object to it joining the EU even if these issues were sorted out. Many who object dont actually care about those problems, they just dont want Turkey to join as they see them as "different" and "not one of us" etc. They are being rascist, or at least xenophobic. I dont want them to join the EU until they do either, but when they do, I want them to be welcomed.


And Secondly invitinging countries into the EU does not require liberal democratic ideollogy to be in place.

There are certain standards that have to be in place before they can join the Eu, which I believe encourage a liberal democratic outlook and system.

I knew it was irrelevant to the topic at hand when I was writing the original post. Still, I felt I needed to present some facts to Nordland, who has stated (in so many words) that the Turkish people are some sort of special entity who are in no way tied to Europe.

Do You also need to present some facts that the sun is hot? Of course there are ties but there are ties everywhere. We learned number 0 from arabs so that's a tie. But that doesnt make arabs european or europeans arabs. Similarly turks might got some ties with europe but they arent european. I really dont understand why some europeans and some NON-europeans want to stretch meaning of european? Why? Arent they happy with themselves?
I believe being european is hereditary. Flame me if you want. I really dont care at this point. If anyone can become european, what's the point of distinction in the first place?
Some people suggest that being european is only about values. What values are they? Democracy? Human Rights? These arent european values but they are universal. And if they are universal, then there is no point in the distiction at the first place, again.

Currently they are less tied to Europe than they were at a time. He is not wrong, nor is he entirely correct though. Either way, the EU will ultimately base its decision on how much Turkey manages to live up to its exigencies, if Turkey can maintain such a structure, if the EU can handle such enlargement and if the citizens are okay with it (right now, the lack of accountability in the "democratic" EU is appalling...so this issue will be put to referenda).

When I get old, I'll come up with such PC excuses as well, I guess, instead of speaking frankly. I think 21st century social descussions became so empty...

Some people suggest that being european is only about values. What values are they? Democracy? Human Rights? These arent european values but they are universal. And if they are universal, then there is no point in the distiction at the first place, again.

Then why exacly you started this thread?

I dont think Turkey is european, by the simple fact that most of Turkey is in Asia. I dont get why that is of any matter. Turkey culture is indeed different from most of Europe. Turkey has european influences, Europe has turkish influences, if Turkey ever gets to enter the EU, i will be glad because (ideally) that means they became a more stable country.

If anyone can become european, what's the point of distinction in the first place?
Artificial geographic boundries?

Do You also need to present some facts that the sun is hot? Of course there are ties but there are ties everywhere. We learned number 0 from arabs so that's a tie. But that doesnt make arabs european or europeans arabs. Similarly turks might got some ties with europe but they arent european. I really dont understand why some europeans and some NON-europeans want to stretch meaning of european? Why? Arent they happy with themselves?
I believe being european is hereditary. Flame me if you want. I really dont care at this point. If anyone can become european, what's the point of distinction in the first place?
Some people suggest that being european is only about values. What values are they? Democracy? Human Rights? These arent european values but they are universal. And if they are universal, then there is no point in the distiction at the first place, again.

Heredetariy? So you become European if you're what? 2nd generation? 5th generation?
Being European implies multiculturalism, you can't limit it to certain features and customs, or to certain interpretations of democracy and humanitarianism. When the European Union started out, one of its aims was to overcome the small-minded nationalism and xenophobia that had shaped European history until the middle of the last century. The idea was to focus on things that were common, rather than on things that were different.

Turkey shouldn't join the union at the moment, as the differences are still too grave. Both its economy and its judical system need reforms. But once Turkey has managed to adapt to the standards set by the Eruopean commission, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be allowed to join.

Do You also need to present some facts that the sun is hot? Of course there are ties but there are ties everywhere. We learned number 0 from arabs so that's a tie. But that doesnt make arabs european or europeans arabs. Similarly turks might got some ties with europe but they arent european. I really dont understand why some europeans and some NON-europeans want to stretch meaning of european? Why? Arent they happy with themselves?
I believe being european is hereditary. Flame me if you want. I really dont care at this point. If anyone can become european, what's the point of distinction in the first place?
Some people suggest that being european is only about values. What values are they? Democracy? Human Rights? These arent european values but they are universal. And if they are universal, then there is no point in the distiction at the first place, again.

Firstly, the number 0 comes from India via the Arabic civilization, just a minor point. The next point is about being European being hereditary.

From what point in time does this inheritence have to come from, and why?

The choice of defining moment will include and exclude large groups of people, so choose carefully.

What about people who are of mixed descent. How much european blood do they need to be European?

For me, being European is a cultural thing, not a biological one. Thus anyone can be European, depending on their beliefs and values.

Firstly, the number 0 comes from India via the Arabic civilization, just a minor point. The next point is about being European being hereditary.

From what point in time does this inheritence have to come from, and why?

The choice of defining moment will include and exclude large groups of people, so choose carefully.

What about people who are of mixed descent. How much european blood do they need to be European?

For me, being European is a cultural thing, not a biological one. Thus anyone can be European, depending on their beliefs and values.

Then whats the point? Why dont you just call them anyone instead of european?

Then whats the point? Why dont you just call them anyone instead of european?
indeed.

So why do you insist that Turkey is not european?

Then whats the point? Why dont you just call them anyone instead of european?

Because European values and beliefs are not the only option. Anyone can choose to adopt the cultural values of any region. (It is not easy, and it normally requires living in the region to do so.) Thus any person can be Asian, Islamic, European, Orthodox, African, North American, Latin American etc. It does not depend on their genetic make up, but on how they feel and think.

Thus, when I describe a person as European, I am describing a value set that they have, not a demographic factoid.

indeed.

So why do you insist that Turkey is not european?

If that is directed at me (as I too have been insisting that Turkey is not European):

Turkey, as a nation, a collection of political, social, religious and legal values, does not share its core values with the European culture. It is far more akin to the Islamic culture in its societal institutions and power structures.

This does not mean that idividuals Turks can not be Europeans, but that the values and beliefs that constitute the national identity of Turkey are not European.

Because European values and beliefs are not the only option. Anyone can choose to adopt the cultural values of any region. (It is not easy, and it normally requires living in the region to do so.) Thus any person can be Asian, Islamic, European, Orthodox, African, North American, Latin American etc. It does not depend on their genetic make up, but on how they feel and think.

Thus, when I describe a person as European, I am describing a value set that they have, not a demographic factoid.

European values are distinct? Come on. Democracy, human rights, welfare state? these arent european. They are universal. Canada is all this but not european. Japan is a democracy with good human rights but not european. They got kinda welfare state, I think it differs. But still...these are universal values that can be adopted by anyone....

European values are distinct? Come on. Democracy, human rights, welfare state? these arent european. They are universal. Canada is all this but not european. Japan is a democracy with good human rights but not european. They got kinda welfare state, I think it differs. But still...these are universal values that can be adopted by anyone....

OK. So Canada is European (from my perspective it is).

Can you answer my question about your point of view.

At what moment in history does being European derive from if it is hereditary?

If that is directed at me (as I too have been insisting that Turkey is not European):

Turkey, as a nation, a collection of political, social, religious and legal values, does not share its core values with the European culture. It is far more akin to the Islamic culture in its societal institutions and power structures.

This does not mean that idividuals Turks can not be Europeans, but that the values and beliefs that constitute the national identity of Turkey are not European.

Let me see.... Turkish constitution is secular, unlike all other Arab countries (as far as I know). Turkish writing is not Arabic, but Latin letters. Turkey is democratic, again not very common in Arab nations. Turkish legislation is somewhat draconic, but not excessively more so than, say, Albanian legislation, a country that's clearly European.
It seems to me that all your entire argument is based on is the fact that religion of the majority of the Turkish population is Islam.

OK. So Canada is European (from my perspective it is).

Can you answer my question about your point of view.

At what moment in history does being European derive from if it is hereditary?

It was the case with ethnic nationalism. Google it or maybe it's in wikipedia. But it was put into shelves because people couldnt learn to deal with their differences in a civilized manner.

European values are distinct? Come on. Democracy, human rights, welfare state? these arent european. They are universal. Canada is all this but not european. Japan is a democracy with good human rights but not european. They got kinda welfare state, I think it differs. But still...these are universal values that can be adopted by anyone....
Nope, those all originated in Europe. Democracy: Greece; Human Rights: France; Wellfare State: Not sure, but I think it started either in France, the UK, or the US after the Great Depression. And the US is culturally very much European, just like Canada and the rest of America, except places here and there.

Other places have adopted them after seeing how cool these ideas are, just like Europe adopted the Arabic numerals or the Chinese printing press.

Nope, those all originated in Europe. Democracy: Greece; Human Rights: France; Wellfare State: Not sure, but I think it started either in France, the UK, or the US after the Great Depression. And the US is culturally very much European, just like Canada and the rest of America, except places here and there.

Other places have adopted them after seeing how cool these ideas are, just like Europe adopted the Arabic numerals or the Chinese printing press.

numbers (1,2, 3, ...) They originated in india. But they arent indian. Some things spread and become universal....

Let me see.... Turkish constitution is secular, unlike all other Arab countries (as far as I know). Turkish writing is not Arabic, but Latin letters. Turkey is democratic, again not very common in Arab nations. Turkish legislation is somewhat draconic, but not excessively more so than, say, Albanian legislation, a country that's clearly European.
It seems to me that all your entire argument is based on is the fact that religion of the majority of the Turkish population is Islam.

No, it is not.

My argument is based on where the real power lies in Turkic society. It lies with the tribal rulers, not with the central government. If you talk to a European and ask them to describe themselves, they will start by telling you about their work, their interests etc. They may include their direct family. If you talk to the average turk, their first point of reference for their identity is their tribe, then their religious sect. This is not wrong, it is just not European.

European (or Western culture as it applies to North and Latin American cultures as well) culture has, as its centre piece the concept of autonomy. The individual is an autonomous piece, responsible to and for itself. Turkish culture does not fully embrace this central point. The individual is not autonomous, they are part of an extended person, which is represented by the tribe.

There are matters of essential cultural differece between these cultures, which are reflected in the dominant religions in the areas. Protestant Christianity is a religion that emphasises the relationship of the individual with the divinity, and as such is a religion that 'fits' the western culture (Catholicism and Latin American culture are a little different). Islam emphasises the group, the social unity, not the individual, and as such 'fits' better the middle eastern and turkish cultures.

So yes, there is a difference of religion, but this is due to a difference in culture and not the other way around.

As an American, we don't have these problems (The majority of America is scared of the EU, I think), but it would seem because Turkey has some land in Europe, participates in the European Soccer qualification and has expressed the drive to join, they should be let in. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Morocco and Cape Verde wanted to join as well...They aren't in Europe either. What are the qualifications anyway?

It was the case with ethnic nationalism. Google it or maybe it's in wikipedia. But it was put into shelves because people couldnt learn to deal with their differences in a civilized manner.

I am asking you, for your opinion. Unless you wrote the wiki article (and if you did, please provide a direct link) then googling or checking wiki is not going to answer that.

Now you are very good at avoiding answering questions, but this is one I am explicitly requiring you to answer.

What point in history, in your opinion, is the critical time for defining a person as being European by inheritence?

I am asking you, for your opinion. Unless you wrote the wiki article (and if you did, please provide a direct link) then googling or checking wiki is not going to answer that.

Now you are very good at avoiding answering questions, but this is one I am explicitly requiring you to answer.

What point in history, in your opinion, is the critical time for defining a person as being European by inheritence?

Late 19th, early 20th century? Weakened after WW2...

Late 19th, early 20th century? Weakened after WW2...

So all the slaves that had been imported from Africa in the 18th century but were freed in the mid 19th century are European. The immigrants from the middle east that had settled throughout central europe in the 18th century are European. The Brazilians that emigrated from Italy and Germany at the end of the 19th centuray are Europeans.

See. European (in your view) can not be based on inheritance, because whatever moment in time you care to select as the defining moment, it would categorise some that you do not consider to be Eurpean as being so.

So please try again. What is it to be European?

So all the slaves that had been imported from Africa in the 18th century but were freed in the mid 19th century are European. The immigrants from the middle east that had settled throughout central europe in the 18th century are European. The Brazilians that emigrated from Italy and Germany at the end of the 19th centuray are Europeans.

See. European (in your view) can not be based on inheritance, because whatever moment in time you care to select as the defining moment, it would categorise some that you do not consider to be Eurpean as being so.

So please try again. What is it to be European?

What are you talking about? I said late 19th and early 20th century was when ethnic nationalism was dominant ideolagy in most european nations....

What are you talking about? I said late 19th and early 20th century was when ethnic nationalism was dominant ideolagy in most european nations....

No you did not, you answered a very specific question. Evidence:


I am asking you, for your opinion. Unless you wrote the wiki article (and if you did, please provide a direct link) then googling or checking wiki is not going to answer that.

Now you are very good at avoiding answering questions, but this is one I am explicitly requiring you to answer.

What point in history, in your opinion, is the critical time for defining a person as being European by inheritence?

Late 19th, early 20th century? Weakened after WW2...

Emphasis added.
Sorry about the nested quotation, but it is necessary here.

Now suggest how we should decide if someone is European. As your original suggestion of it being hereditary does not seem to work.

No you did not, you answered a very specific question. Evidence:


Emphasis added.
Sorry about the nested quotation, but it is necessary here.

Now suggest how we should decide if someone is European. As your original suggestion of it being hereditary does not seem to work.

Hereditary European = Native European.....no, I dont mean neanderthals....

Hereditary European = Native European.....no, I dont mean neanderthals....

So what do you mean. Having ancestors that were in Europe when defines someone as European?

I am getting tired of you being too stupid to answer a simple question.

So what do you mean. Having ancestors that were in Europe when defines someone as European?

I am getting tired of you being too stupid to answer a simple question.

It's mostly because I dont feel very motivated to explain europeanness to a brazillian. Native european might mean "white". But what is white? Some lebaneese are white but they arent native european. Dont expect me to give u a encyclopedia description. But hey, what about a pic? Here are tanned hereditary euros:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8232/euros6zh.jpg

Edit: Tribute to Aaron for this pic :D

It's mostly because I dont feel very motivated to explain europeanness to a brazillian. Native european might mean "white". But what is white? Some lebaneese are white but they arent native european. Dont expect me to give u a encyclopedia description. But hey, what about a pic? Here are tanned hereditary euros:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8232/euros6zh.jpg
So really, European whites. ;)

By the way, way too many women...some men too, s'il vous plait?

So really, European whites. ;)

If anyone accuses me of "racism", I'll say i meant the clothes :D

If anyone accuses me of "racism", I'll say i meant the clothes :D
Tee-hee ^^ Yep, they are in pure white European outfits. ;)

It's mostly because I dont feel very motivated to explain europeanness to a brazillian. Native european might mean "white". But what is white? Some lebaneese are white but they arent native european. Dont expect me to give u a encyclopedia description. But hey, what about a pic? Here are tanned hereditary euros:


Actually I am probably more European that you are by your standards. I am British, not Brazilian. I just happen to live in Brazil.

As I understand it the earliest settlers in Europe were driven onto the British peninsula by invading tribes of norsemen and danes. Yes, I have Pictish blood.

So what does European mean to you, as you can now relax in the knowledfge that you are replying to someone who is, by any standard, European.

I agree that Turkey isn't European, but it was owned by Europe at one time.
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~jenkinsm/Map-Ancient%20Greece.jpg

It's kinda like the Europeans when they owned Africa at one time, they were territory of the countries, but not part of Eurpoe.

It's mostly because I dont feel very motivated to explain europeanness to a brazillian. Native european might mean "white". But what is white? Some lebaneese are white but they arent native european. Dont expect me to give u a encyclopedia description. But hey, what about a pic? Here are tanned hereditary euros:



Actually I am probably more European that you are by your standards. I am British, not Brazilian. I just happen to live in Brazil.

As I understand it the earliest settlers in Europe were driven onto the British peninsula by invading tribes of norsemen and danes. Yes, I have Pictish blood.

So what does European mean to you, as you can now relax in the knowledfge that you are replying to someone who is, by any standard, European.

TO me, european means: native european as I explained above and if you insist some tolerable number of non-european immigrants...Like less than 3% of the population. I think some people think like me but majority of those come up with PC packages wrapped...

TO me, european means: native european as I explained above and if you insist some tolerable number of non-european immigrants...Like less than 3% of the population. I think some people think like me but majority of those come up with PC packages wrapped...

What the Fuck does NATIVE mean? Can't you answer a simple question?

Edit: It seems then that the reason you oppose Turkey joining the EU is either that the Turks are not white, or do not wear white. Neither is a convincing argument, but if it were, it would mean that we would be obliged to admit the Innuits. (After all they only wear white).

And there is of course the exception. We would have to admit these:
http://www.daemery.com/images/04-06turkey/05-30/05-30%20Whirling%20Dervish%20P1010046%20web.JPG

Whirling Dervishes from .... you guessed it - Turkey.

Which were all built in the time of the Ottoman Empire. Like Roman ruins in Britain which were built in the time of the Roman Empire.

but... roman ruins are... ruins (am I just being picky?)

People, people, can't you see this is entirely futile? Ny Nordland is a racist, white supremacist with a variety of character defects that generally repulse me. He's never going to change his mind and his posting of this thread was designed to expouse his views that Muslims are inferior. This has nothing, at all, to do with Turkey's status as a European state. It's a carrier for his hate. Arguing with him is pointless. He's not worth the effort.

but... roman ruins are... ruins (am I just being picky?)
Empty buildings, ruins etc. Yeah, so?

People, people, can't you see this is entirely futile? Ny Nordland is a racist, white supremacist with a variety of character defects that generally repulse me. He's never going to change his mind and his posting of this thread was designed to expouse his views that Muslims are inferior. This has nothing, at all, to do with Turkey's status as a European state. It's a carrier for his hate. Arguing with him is pointless. He's not worth the effort.

I know that, but I am having fun here making him spin around in ever decreasing circles. :D

Dance dervish dance.

Empty buildings, ruins etc. Yeah, so?

I'm sorry... I'm a little behind in this topic... your words, which I quoted, were in reply to images of buildings in current use in sarajevo... maybe I'm being dumb to assume this, but a ruin is ever so slightly different from a building in active use... right?

I'm sorry... I'm a little behind in this topic... your words, which I quoted, were in reply to images of buildings in current use in sarajevo... maybe I'm being dumb to assume this, but a ruin is ever so slightly different from a building in active use... right?
My point was they were landmarks left behind the empire...not buildings created by the culture after the influence of said empire.

I know that, but I am having fun here making him spin around in ever decreasing circles. :D

Dance dervish dance.

Right...:rolleyes:
You party freak....

Right...:rolleyes:
You party freak....

And the party rolls on. Will you let the Dervishes be European, they are dressed in white after all.

What do you mean by native. My son is native or not? He was born in England and I am English.

My point was they were landmarks left behind the empire...not buildings created by the culture after the influence of said empire.

They are still in use though, according to those pictures, they have been maintained and are in good condition and not all of them will be from that period, some will be more modern... so why use ruins as a point in the argument when they have been left to crumble... and us Brits have obvious roman influences in our culture, so why is it that a country which actively maintains these places should not remain influenced by their Turkish past?

Is Turkey a part of Europe? Who the hell cares? What difference does it make?

Is Turkey a part of Europe? Who the hell cares? What difference does it make?

It makes none... it's just fun to debate when you can't sleep (or are bored in a timezone where it isn't past midnight)

They are still in use though, according to those pictures, they have been maintained and are in good condition and not all of them will be from that period, some will be more modern... so why use ruins as a point in the argument when they have been left to crumble... and us Brits have obvious roman influences in our culture, so why is it that a country which actively maintains these places should not remain influenced by their Turkish past?
Exactly those words. They are a reflection of the past. That is what I am saying. Of course these countries will preserve them, they are an element of their culture. Others, however, such as Greece or Cyprus only preserve them out of courtesy...not because they like the influence.

Is Turkey a part of Europe? Who the hell cares? What difference does it make?

Well as they are trying to join the European Union, it does make quite a difference for Europe as a whole (Except NN, those parts that are not in the EU).

It would set a precedent for non culturally European countries being admitted into the EU, in my opinion anyway. This would then justify admission of Tunisia, or Egypt etc.

The EU can function only if the same basic social systems apply across the entirety of the union, as soon as you introduce nations with incompatible social structures, the union will inevitably start on a road to internal fragmentation.
(Again, only my opinion.)

Exactly those words. They are a reflection of the past. That is what I am saying. Of course these countries will preserve them, they are an element of their culture. Others, however, such as Greece or Cyprus only preserve them out of courtesy...not because they like the influence.

So... do we Europeans preserve our Roman past out of courtesy? I quite like my language, nothing courteous about it, I just enjoy my latin descended linguistics, besides, what's wrong with the Turkish influence? Those buildings are beautiful and diversity is, strangely, a fantastic thing to have.

Perhaps we should just revert to calling it the League Of Nations? Then this petty argument wouldn't even matter.

Well as they are trying to join the European Union, it does make quite a difference for Europe as a whole (Except NN, those parts that are not in the EU).

It would set a precedent for non culturally European countries being admitted into the EU, in my opinion anyway. This would then justify admission of Tunisia, or Egypt etc.

The EU can function only if the same basic social systems apply across the entirety of the union, as soon as you introduce nations with incompatible social structures, the union will inevitably start on a road to internal fragmentation.
(Again, only my opinion.)
My point was that people are just making up arbitrary nonexistent borders, whether they are national borders or continental borders, to separate the human race. In the end, people living in Turkey are people, aren't they? Why should it matter that they are Turkish and not European?

turkey is from North America, and tastes good.


haha Im smrt.:p

So... do we Europeans preserve our Roman past out of courtesy? I quite like my language, nothing courteous about it, I just enjoy my latin descended linguistics, besides, what's wrong with the Turkish influence? Those buildings are beautiful and diversity is, strangely, a fantastic thing to have.
Pictures of buildings mean little to me. Now do you get it?

Perhaps we should just revert to calling it the League Of Nations? Then this petty argument wouldn't even matter.
Yes, perhaps.

My point was that people are just making up arbitrary nonexistent borders, whether they are national borders or continental borders, to separate the human race. In the end, people living in Turkey are people, aren't they? Why should it matter that they are Turkish and not European?
Ideally. In the real world, borders matter.

*snip*
So then what is your position on Turkey's entry essentially?

Ideally. In the real world, borders matter.

Borders between countries matter, sometimes borders around meaningless pictures matter, continental borders only serve to make the landmasses seem smaller.

Ideally. In the real world, borders matter.
shh...leave my illusionments alone. I don't have much time left to live in my ideal world, so let me be. :p

Borders between countries matter, sometimes borders around meaningless pictures matter, continental borders only serve to make the landmasses seem smaller.
Yeah, real shocker there!

So then what is your position on Turkey's entry essentially?

I am opposed, I would have thought that was clear. But on cultural grounds, not ethnic ones.
EDIT:
Found them:
Two posts
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11096351&postcount=199


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11099827&postcount=250 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11099827&postcount=250)

The second much more detailed than the first.

Geographically, maybe
Historically, it was, not anymore after the downfall of Istanbul.

I would prefer that it doesn't come in Europe. The riots of Paris were enough.

My point was that people are just making up arbitrary nonexistent borders, whether they are national borders or continental borders, to separate the human race. In the end, people living in Turkey are people, aren't they? Why should it matter that they are Turkish and not European?

It only matters with respect to Turkey joining the EU.

I am opposed, I would have thought that was clear. But on cultural grounds, not ethnic ones.
EDIT:
Found them:
Two posts
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11096351&postcount=199


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11099827&postcount=250 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11099827&postcount=250)

The second much more detailed than the first.
Then we are more or less in agreement.

Then we are more or less in agreement.

That is what I had understood. :D

Might seeing it that way be something to do with having lived in different cultures I wonder?

No, it is not.

My argument is based on where the real power lies in Turkic society. It lies with the tribal rulers, not with the central government. If you talk to a European and ask them to describe themselves, they will start by telling you about their work, their interests etc. They may include their direct family. If you talk to the average turk, their first point of reference for their identity is their tribe, then their religious sect. This is not wrong, it is just not European.

European (or Western culture as it applies to North and Latin American cultures as well) culture has, as its centre piece the concept of autonomy. The individual is an autonomous piece, responsible to and for itself. Turkish culture does not fully embrace this central point. The individual is not autonomous, they are part of an extended person, which is represented by the tribe.

There are matters of essential cultural differece between these cultures, which are reflected in the dominant religions in the areas. Protestant Christianity is a religion that emphasises the relationship of the individual with the divinity, and as such is a religion that 'fits' the western culture (Catholicism and Latin American culture are a little different). Islam emphasises the group, the social unity, not the individual, and as such 'fits' better the middle eastern and turkish cultures.

So yes, there is a difference of religion, but this is due to a difference in culture and not the other way around.

Sorry dude, but you're mixing Turkey with an Arabic country. I've just lived there for two years and thanks, that changed my attitude towards turks.Actually There are not any tribes (there are only a few kurdish tribes but they hold a power only in their community) as you described and there is not a single fact true in your post. You'd better go Turkey and see that this country is not much different than any eastern Europe countries (in fact I've found Turkey much better than Bulgaria and Greece from my own experiences but this may vary depending on you) Anyway, Turkey is really a different country than what many western europeans think of. The religion seems as Islam but what I saw is the population does not care much about the religion. At least just as much as any protestan cares for the Church. Anyway, I just want to correct the image you admit on them. There are many films and propoganda -even in Albania- about the image of turks, but they are far from this. of course there are cultural differences but these are not mainly related to religion. many of the turks do not care about it at all, what one can expect from a country that hardly earns $3000 per year?

That is what I had understood. :D

Might seeing it that way be something to do with having lived in different cultures I wonder?
Partly, yes.

Sorry dude, but you're mixing Turkey with an Arabic country. I've just lived there for two years and thanks, that changed my attitude towards turks.Actually There are not any tribes (there are only a few kurdish tribes but they hold a power only in their community) as you described and there is not a single fact true in your post. You'd better go Turkey and see that this country is not much different than any eastern Europe countries (in fact I've found Turkey much better than Bulgaria and Greece from my own experiences but this may vary depending on you) Anyway, Turkey is really a different country than what many western europeans think of. The religion seems as Islam but what I saw is the population does not care much about the religion. At least just as much as any protestan cares for the Church. Anyway, I just want to correct the image you admit on them. There are many films and propoganda -even in Albania- about the image of turks, but they are far from this. of course there are cultural differences but these are not mainly related to religion. many of the turks do not care about it at all, what one can expect from a country that hardly earns $3000 per year?


Where did you live in Turkey? Istanbul I am willing to bet, and I am also willing to bet that what little travelling you did there took you to the tourist resorts along the mediterranean coast. However I could be wrong.

What I do know is that Turks in general do not have the same cultural history and priorities as the western europeans. This is not my opinion, it is one provided by historians and sociologists. Relatively recent political history, with events like the crash at Susurluk, show that the political systems there are not the same as they are in the West. Additionally, whilst Turkey is dominated by the ethnic turks, but is also home to peoples such as the Abkhazians, Albanians, Arabs, Armenians, Assyrians, Bosniaks, Chechens, Circassians, Georgians, Hamshenis, Kabardins, Kurds, Laz, Ossetians, Pomaks, Roma and Zazas. These minorities often (but not always) see themselves as answering to their own leaders first. This maintains the basic tribal nature of the society in the interior, and as such a social structure that is based on this fact.

As I have made clear, this is not a criticisim of Turkey, it is simply a consideration that there are too many differences in the social structures for Turkey to integrate into the EU.

Turkey is in a very difficult position, along with Mexico and Australia. In that it is neither one thing nor the other. Turkey is not an Islamic state, but nor is it a European one. (As Australia is not European, nor is it Asian and Mexico is not North American, nor is it Latin American.) I believe that in the future Turkey will either evolve into a European state or split into two seperate parts, one European the other Islamic. hich it will be I can not predict.

The EU, to me, is more of a political and economic union rather than a cultural union. Hence, if a country meets the political and economic requirements and it is economically and politically prudent for the country to accede to the union then I do not have a problem with their accession.

The EU does have a cultural aspect to it, but the EU attempts to promote and protect the cultural diversity of Europe and not to standardise it. I know Ny will jump on this sentence as he wants to preserve cultural purity. However there is a difference between purity and diversity... a big one. The EU does not see a problem in allowing the germanic and latin cultures to be part of the same group.

There are a near infinite amount of divisions in the European indentity. In fact, over half a century ago the very idea of a European indentity would have been absurd to many. The unifying parts of Europe are it's political and economic aspects, which have only collalesced in the last 50 years.

This is my whole point, the European identity has been foming in the wake of the fall of imperial Europe, and the things we have in common are that we are all liberal capitalist social democracies. What else has someone living in Corduba got in common with someone living in Helsinki, someone living in Athens got in common with someone living in Dublin? (and no, don't tell me that Lutherans, Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox same). So the idea of excluding Turkey from the EU because it is either Turkic, Muslim, or mainly located in Asia Minor seems preposterous.

Additionally, whilst Turkey is dominated by the ethnic turks, but is also home to peoples such as the Abkhazians, Albanians, Arabs, Armenians, Assyrians, Bosniaks, Chechens, Circassians, Georgians, Hamshenis, Kabardins, Kurds, Laz, Ossetians, Pomaks, Roma and Zazas. These minorities often (but not always) see themselves as answering to their own leaders first. This maintains the basic tribal nature of the society in the interior, and as such a social structure that is based on this fact.

But how would this be different to Spain where some ethnic groups, like Basques and Catalans, put their own national identity before that of Spain?

Really? America has 3% of the land inside of its national boundaries inside Europe? Could you explain how you figure that?

America has territory in Europe. They have a military cemetary in France.

LET 'EM IN! DON'T BE RACIST AGAINST OBESITY AND FIDDY CENT!

http://i-cias.com/e.o/atlas/h-ottomans.htm

Look @ the borders in 1683. Turkey is a mixture of both: European and Asian. Why is that hard to accept? :)

Look at German borders in 1942. European and African. Let 'em into the African Union!

Look at German borders in 1942. European and African. Let 'em into the African Union!

Shhhh....Noone is interested at stretching and emptying the meaning of Africanness....It only applies to us. We should accept either being overrunned by foreign cultures or being labelled "racist". Actually this just shows how pathetic social discussions has become in europe, due to taboos that Social Democrats & their friends use to justify their policies and silence opposition. The EU's future biggest member will be a non-european country, stronger than Germany in European Parliment, much stronger than France or Italy. That's just sad.

Thank god UK would still be more powerful than Turkey then :p

Thank god UK would still be more powerful than Turkey then :p

UK will be much less powerless....Turkey's population will be like 80 million in 10 years while UK's stays around 60....

UK will be much less powerless....Turkey's population will be like 80 million in 10 years while UK's stays around 60....

You may have overlooked that in your panic, but Turkey is not yet a member. It might become a member, and one of the conditions for that is that it raises its overall living standards to European level. And those levels have one clearly observable effect all throughout the continent : stagnant birth rates, and resulting drop of population numbers.

UK will be much less powerless....Turkey's population will be like 80 million in 10 years while UK's stays around 60....
Do you honestly think population bears any relation, at ALL, to an abtract concept such as "power?" You tempt me into flaming, foul sir.

Turquey part of EU?

Ridiculous...
Uk find it difficult to be in, French do not know if they are French, Polish are catholic (is it european?) Spain is a ... you tell me, and the others try to look smart.

EU is dying, the love story is finished, Russia should come and take over, America killed the big Europe.

Turkey?
Depends where is the next war... :sniper:

Do you honestly think population bears any relation, at ALL, to an abtract concept such as "power?" You tempt me into flaming, foul sir.

How do you think the number of MEPs are determined for each country? EP isnt eurovision (not every country gets 1 vote). Big countries get more comissioners too. But why am I bothering? You are clearly in "younger than 15" category...

But how would this be different to Spain where some ethnic groups, like Basques and Catalans, put their own national identity before that of Spain?

Spain has two such groups and both of these wish simply to be recognised as independent nations or regions, not as tribal powers within the nation. The Catalans are not wanting special treatment for people belonging to certain families, but wanting recognition of the cultural identity of a geographical region. This is normal for European culture. It is how Europe has countries such as Andorra and Luxembourg. The same applies to the Basque movement.
The Turkish situation is different. It is not a geographical matter, but a family matter - and that does not fit with the Eurpean culture.

guys, i dont think you lot are understanding of the importance of Turkey and what it can contribute to europe and the UK. 60-70% of the UK's population will be to old to work or in the retirement age! the only country, which has territory in europe and has the youth needed is Turkey. The UK desperatley needs youth for its economy to last or else it could collapse. Infact, germany, france, austria, belguim, holland and denmark are in serious need of young workers. why do you think the age of retirement is increasing? The only nation within europe to supply this need of skilled workers is Turkey.

did you know that all of the UK's, Germany's and Frances youth population doesnt add up to the amount of Turkey's youth population! Also, germany is starting to ask for skillful workers from Turkey again! However, if Turkey does enter the EU then pretty much half of europe will be turkish and this will cause a threat to european countries wihint EU. This is the main reason why many europeans dont want Turkey to enter the EU. To conclude without Turkey's youth many of the countries will see a lot economic problems rising within their countries.

Norway isn't even in the EU, so get our conversation :p
Anyway, UK is far, and always will be, far more powerful than Turkey.
For example, our GDP (PPP) compared to theirs'.
United Kingdom 1,832,792
Turkey 569,248
Or our nominal GDP compared:
United Kingdom 2,201,473
Turkey 362,461
Or per capita:
United Kingdom 30,470
Turkey 7,950
Damn, that's some mighty powerful country, not to mention we have a far superior military.

To conclude without Turkey's youth many of the countries will see a lot economic problems rising within their countries.
Turkey's youth CREATES most of the social problems in Europe.

Wellfare State: Not sure, but I think it started either in France, the UK, or the US after the Great Depression.

Nope, the European origins, as far as I know, and certainly earlier than any of those, was Bismark's Germany.

guys, i dont think you lot are understanding of the importance of Turkey and what it can contribute to europe and the UK. 60-70% of the UK's population will be to old to work or in the retirement age! the only country, which has territory in europe and has the youth needed is Turkey. The UK desperatley needs youth for its economy to last or else it could collapse. Infact, germany, france, austria, belguim, holland and denmark are in serious need of young workers. why do you think the age of retirement is increasing? The only nation within europe to supply this need of skilled workers is Turkey.

did you know that all of the UK's, Germany's and Frances youth population doesnt add up to the amount of Turkey's youth population! Also, germany is starting to ask for skillful workers from Turkey again! However, if Turkey does enter the EU then pretty much half of europe will be turkish and this will cause a threat to european countries wihint EU. This is the main reason why many europeans dont want Turkey to enter the EU. To conclude without Turkey's youth many of the countries will see a lot economic problems rising within their countries.

Then get your birthrate up and/or do and develop robots that'll help workforce, like the japaneese are doing...

guys, i dont think you lot are understanding of the importance of Turkey and what it can contribute to europe and the UK. 60-70% of the UK's population will be to old to work or in the retirement age! the only country, which has territory in europe and has the youth needed is Turkey. The UK desperatley needs youth for its economy to last or else it could collapse. Infact, germany, france, austria, belguim, holland and denmark are in serious need of young workers. why do you think the age of retirement is increasing? The only nation within europe to supply this need of skilled workers is Turkey.

did you know that all of the UK's, Germany's and Frances youth population doesnt add up to the amount of Turkey's youth population! Also, germany is starting to ask for skillful workers from Turkey again! However, if Turkey does enter the EU then pretty much half of europe will be turkish and this will cause a threat to european countries wihint EU. This is the main reason why many europeans dont want Turkey to enter the EU. To conclude without Turkey's youth many of the countries will see a lot economic problems rising within their countries.

far superior military? what the heck you on about? Britain might have the strongest navy but thats about it. British soldiers are not trained for geurrilla warfare e.g. Iraq. Britain has tiny armed compared to Turkey's, mainly because of the conscription. o yh, not only that turkish soldiers are trained for guerilla warfares and have been fighting a war with many millitant groups in the east of Turkey. The turkish airforce is the second largest after Italy's and our armed technology is up to date with britains. So what military power was you talking about?

Nein, danke!

We don't want another 10 million Sezers.

guys, i dont think you lot are understanding of the importance of Turkey and what it can contribute to europe and the UK.Honour killings and arranged marriages? Shooting up minorities? Political prisoners, massive censorship in the media? Frequent coup d'etats by the military?

I can live perfectly well without all of these contributions, thanks.

60-70% of the UK's population will be to old to work or in the retirement age! the only country, which has territory in europe and has the youth needed is Turkey. The UK desperatley needs youth for its economy to last or else it could collapse. Infact, germany, france, austria, belguim, holland and denmark are in serious need of young workers. why do you think the age of retirement is increasing? The only nation within europe to supply this need of skilled workers is Turkey.Speaking from experience, 'Skilled Workers' and 'Turkey' is an oxymoron. Besides, doesn't it strike you as a somewhat better idea to produce those workers yourself (And they'll be produced, once the social system collapses - this will be when children will once more be needed. Granted, there'll be a time lag, but...), rather than turning your country into Turkey minor after the Austrians sacrificed quite a bit in order to push 'em back?

did you know that all of the UK's, Germany's and Frances youth population doesnt add up to the amount of Turkey's youth population!And this is a good thing because...?

Also, germany is starting to ask for skillful workers from Turkey again!Uh, where did you get that from? Frankly, I've my doubts. Though I suppose the local turkish interest groups might push for it... But the nation itself, fuck, no (I'd rather take chinese, anyway).

However, if Turkey does enter the EU then pretty much half of europe will be turkish and this will cause a threat to european countries wihint EU. This is the main reason why many europeans dont want Turkey to enter the EU.Quite. And what exactly is wrong with this...?

To conclude without Turkey's youth many of the countries will see a lot economic problems rising within their countries.And with turkey's youth, the same countries will see a hell of a lot more of social problems rising (Just look at Scandinavia, Germany, France, UK...).

I take the economic problems, thanks. There's at least a way of fixing them. Social problems, not so much.

Norway isn't even in the EU, so get our conversation :p
Anyway, UK is far, and always will be, far more powerful than Turkey.
For example, our GDP (PPP) compared to theirs'.
United Kingdom 1,832,792
Turkey 569,248
Or our nominal GDP compared:
United Kingdom 2,201,473
Turkey 362,461
Or per capita:
United Kingdom 30,470
Turkey 7,950
Damn, that's some mighty powerful country, not to mention we have a far superior military.

No Turkey will be much more powerful WITHIN EU. Because it'll have more voting powers. Netherlands is richer but it's less powerful than Spain.

It would set a precedent for non culturally European countries

Which means exactly what? Define european culture. Try.

If you succeed, provbe that nations outisde Europe wouldnt adopt those standards.


being admitted into the EU, in my opinion anyway. This would then justify admission of Tunisia, or Egypt etc.

So? If they meet the standards required someday, whats wrong with them joining?


The EU can function only if the same basic social systems apply across the entirety of the union, as soon as you introduce nations with incompatible social structures, the union will inevitably start on a road to internal fragmentation.
(Again, only my opinion.)

Yes, but does Turkey have an incompatible social structure?

sorry about the reply, I by accidentally copied it on to another window and posted it. Anyway, huhain do you have any facts or figures to back ur arguement up? nope so its uesless to say that. nordland what your saying might happen in a 100-200 years time. Also, the retirement age for japanese people are close to the age of 70. They are clearly struggling taswell so they keep on increasing the age for retirment.

guys, i dont think you lot are understanding of the importance of Turkey and what it can contribute to europe and the UK. 60-70% of the UK's population will be to old to work or in the retirement age! the only country, which has territory in europe and has the youth needed is Turkey. The UK desperatley needs youth for its economy to last or else it could collapse. Infact, germany, france, austria, belguim, holland and denmark are in serious need of young workers. why do you think the age of retirement is increasing? The only nation within europe to supply this need of skilled workers is Turkey.

did you know that all of the UK's, Germany's and Frances youth population doesnt add up to the amount of Turkey's youth population! Also, germany is starting to ask for skillful workers from Turkey again! However, if Turkey does enter the EU then pretty much half of europe will be turkish and this will cause a threat to european countries wihint EU. This is the main reason why many europeans dont want Turkey to enter the EU. To conclude without Turkey's youth many of the countries will see a lot economic problems rising within their countries.


For me, that is irrelevant. I am not concerned with the power relations within the EU, but with the viability of the EU as a coherent entity. If Turkey were a European nation I would wholeheartedly approve of its inclusion in the Union. The difficulty is that it is not culturally European. That is all.

The demographic factors are just evidence for the position that Turkey is not European. At a time when the average age is increasing in all european nations, the average age in Turkey is not. Why? What is different?

Has anyone considered the effects of denying Turkey a place in the EU? Pushing Turkey out and denying it a place in the EU might piss its government off, and quite possibly turn it into another more radical islamic state.

So which is better? Letting it in and fixing its problems? Or snubbing it and creating an even larger problem?

Honour killings and arranged marriages? Shooting up minorities? Political prisoners, massive censorship in the media? Frequent coup d'etats by the military?

I can live perfectly well without all of these contributions, thanks.



Maybe we should kick out Italy, too, then???

Maybe we should kick out Italy, too, then???

Inasmuch as Italy joined before Ireland, it is not your right to question Italy in the first place.

Der angst what the heck you on about? so you would want your contry to face hyper inflation due to low production because of barely any young workers? clearly your not rational and have something against Turks. im half english and half turkish and to be fair many english people hate germans because of the World wars, but this doesnt stop england from trading with germany!

sorry about the reply, I by accidentally copied it on to another window and posted it. Anyway, huhain do you have any facts or figures to back ur arguement up? nope so its uesless to say that. nordland what your saying might happen in a 100-200 years time. Also, the retirement age for japanese people are close to the age of 70. They are clearly struggling taswell so they keep on increasing the age for retirment.

100-200 years? There are already many robots that help in manufacturing, like auto industry. And Honda's robots seem pretty advanced. It can happen much earlier than that. Besides, getting immigrants isnt the solution because many of those immigrants themselves end up in welfare.

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7034/daytechdec1403uw.jpg

Which means exactly what? Define european culture. Try.
Go back and read the thread youngling. I have defined it and shown why Turkey does not and will not adopt this culture. Alternatively try reading something on the matter, such as Huntington's "The clash of Civilizations" and then come back to discuss it.

Look at German borders in 1942. European and African. Let 'em into the African Union!


I know I am:

1) going completely off topic
2) being a total pedant

but Germany didnt have African territory in 1942. They were technically fighting for the Italians, and were never trying to conquor African territory, but trying to defeat the British.

Has anyone considered the effects of denying Turkey a place in the EU? Pushing Turkey out and denying it a place in the EU might piss its government off, and quite possibly turn it into another more radical islamic state.

So which is better? Letting it in and fixing its problems? Or snubbing it and creating an even larger problem?

Turks will not find what's best for them themselves? We NEED to help them to become a good democracy? That's very arrogant of you.

neo-nazis, rascists, murders because of rascist beings? highest racial attacks in germany! NO THANKS I DONT WANT GERMANY IN THE EU CAUSE OF THERE RACIST BEHAVIOURS! germany should be kicked out from the EU then because for similar grounds! its obvious that ou have irrational school of fought!

I know I am:

1) going completely off topic
2) being a total pedant

but Germany didnt have African territory in 1942. They were technically fighting for the Italians, and were never trying to conquor African territory, but trying to defeat the British.

Fine...They had still got large colonies before WW1....Minor corrections doesnt change his point.

Has anyone considered the effects of denying Turkey a place in the EU? Pushing Turkey out and denying it a place in the EU might piss its government off, and quite possibly turn it into another more radical islamic state.

So which is better? Letting it in and fixing its problems? Or snubbing it and creating an even larger problem?Well, the last time Turkey was a more radical islamic state, Europe fixed the problem by pushing it back, from Vienna to Constantinople.

A shame, we saved Vienna from them, and now they're covering Berlin...

But on a more serious note - while I respect the (Fairly successful, I admit as much) effords of Turkey's present government in 'Modernising' the country, it simply isn't enough. I can easily accept Turkey as a partner of the EU, but not as a member (Just think of Greece and Turkey clashing in the commissions or the Parliament). It simply doesn't work. That I consider continued migration from Turkey into Europe a threat aside - the intersts, and the cultural background (Ya'know - that thing that defines our (Political) attitudes and so on) are too different. The loyalities are different. And so on.

Oh, certainly - there is a considerable difference involved between, say, Germany and France, or France and Italy, too. But it's still less of a difference, and I'd prefer to keep cooperation on a scale as it exists within the EU limited as much as possible (Which doesn't only mean Turkey - personally, I'd rather the EU had a few less members...).

skinny Turkey isnt an islamic state and never will be due to the culture! Turkey is in the top 10 athiest nations and you know why? Because within the turkish culture alcohol plays a very big role and many turkish people consume it. Now in islam it staes that you should never drink alcohol because it harram and that it could cause you to do 'awful' things. how the heck can Turkey ever be an islamic state when pretty much 80% drinkin alcohol? (sorry i know i have strayed away from the point, just answering skinny)

Inasmuch as Italy joined before Ireland, it is not your right to question Italy in the first place.

Considering that I'm a German living in Ireland, I rather think it might be my right.

And I was referring to the honour killings, the arranged weddings, the controlled media and the corrupt legal system in Southern Italy, as someone brought up these points against Turkey.

neo-nazis, rascists, murders because of rascist beings? highest racial attacks in germany! NO THANKS I DONT WANT GERMANY IN THE EU CAUSE OF THERE RACIST BEHAVIOURS! germany should be kicked out from the EU then because for similar grounds! its obvious that ou have irrational school of fought!

Where are you from Pernes? Are you turkish?

Go back and read the thread youngling. I have defined it

Erm... so European culture amounts to: Not identifying along tribal grounds?


and shown why Turkey does not and will not adopt this culture.

No, you havent. Youmay have shown what they have at the moment, but no evidence that that cannot change.


Alternatively try reading something on the matter, such as Huntington's "The clash of Civilizations" and then come back to discuss it.

As far as I can tell, as unfortunately I have unable to find the book yet let alone actually read the book, he defines Eastern Europe as a seperate "civilisation" yet there are "Orthodox" nations within the EU.

Considering that I'm a German living in Ireland, I rather think it might be my right.

And I was referring to the honour killings, the arranged weddings, the controlled media and the corrupt legal system in Southern Italy, as someone brought up these points against Turkey.

There are a thousand reasons not to let Turkey in.
And the debate about Italy's membership ended 50 years or so ago.

In other words, you cannot be said to have a right to question whether Italy should be let in or not. Or, if you have such a right, your right to question Italian entry into the EU is as mote as your right to question whether Massachusetts should be allowed entry into the United States.

skinny Turkey isnt an islamic state and never will be due to the culture! Turkey is in the top 10 athiest nations and you know why? Because within the turkish culture alcohol plays a very big role and many turkish people consume it. Now in islam it staes that you should never drink alcohol because it harram and that it could cause you to do 'awful' things. how the heck can Turkey ever be an islamic state when pretty much 80% drinkin alcohol? (sorry i know i have strayed away from the point, just answering skinny)

Turkey was an Islamic state until the advent of Ataturk (try looking him up) and is still dominated by islamic social structures. The fact that the Turkish people drink is of no more consequence to this than the fact that the Italians fornicate is to their being a Catholic nation. What the religion requires and what the people do are two different things.

Anyway, a news article from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5054732.stm) today about Turkey. What is interesting are some of the readers comments from Turks.

There is know other solution for the lack of workers within europe over than Turkey's youth. Someone said that why not make and train the youth yourself? rightttttttt guess how long it would take for europe to regenerate the youth population needed? A VERY LONG TIME! europe is despertae for young workers. Its not a matter of cultures clashing for a capitalist (im a commie myself), but in fact about profits and money. Now to be honest how many of the countries within europe put democracy before economy? none! These days capital income is the most important thing because if deomocracy was the highest for the countries in europe then all the multinational european companies would cease to exist due to all the undemocratic things they commite in africa e.g extremely low wages. Its not a case of cultural indifferences anymore, its more about capital incom and that is a fact.

Turkey was an Islamic state until the advent of Ataturk (try looking him up) and is still dominated by islamic social structures. The fact that the Turkish people drink is of no more consequence to this than the fact that the Italians fornicate is to their being a Catholic nation. What the religion requires and what the people do are two different things.

Anyway, a news article from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5054732.stm) today about Turkey. What is interesting are some of the readers comments from Turks.

Oh this is about the homophobic army?


Military Law

Turkish military law bans homosexuals from military service as a mental illness, and those homoesxuals discovered to be gay in the armed forces will face 3 to 6 months imprisonment and then will be discharged. In reality however, the military has made it so difficult to prove homosexuallity that most gay men do compulsory service.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Turkey

Maybe we should kick out Italy, too, then???Well, you'd have my support...

Der angst what the heck you on about? so you would want your contry to face hyper inflation due to low production because of barely any young workers? clearly your not rational and have something against Turks. im half english and half turkish and to be fair many english people hate germans because of the World wars, but this doesnt stop england from trading with germany!Why, yes, I do. God I love swords...

Ahem.

On a more serious note, I think I explained above why this wont really happen. Demographics and economies don't develop lineary, after all.

And hey - I'm all for trading with Turkey. I'm even willing to export tanks to them (Poor turks have to get rid of kurdish babies, after all!), but I do not want it in the EU.

Is this so hard to understand?

Besides, turks have had remarkably little issues entering EU countries even without Turkey being in the EU - annoying as this may be).

[quote=Pernes]neo-nazis, rascists, murders because of rascist beings? highest racial attacks in germany! NO THANKS I DONT WANT GERMANY IN THE EU CAUSE OF THERE RACIST BEHAVIOURS! germany should be kicked out from the EU then because for similar grounds! its obvious that ou have irrational school of fought![7quote]Ye'see - in germany, we actually get these people into jail. In turkey, thieves occasionally get their own TV shows because hey, they're so cool (Well, not quite - they get them when they stole property in germany, rather than turkey).

Tiny bit of difference there.

Honour killings and arranged marriages? Shooting up minorities? Political prisoners, massive censorship in the media? Frequent coup d'etats by the military?

I can live perfectly well without all of these contributions, thanks.

Speaking from experience, 'Skilled Workers' and 'Turkey' is an oxymoron. Besides, doesn't it strike you as a somewhat better idea to produce those workers yourself (And they'll be produced, once the social system collapses - this will be when children will once more be needed. Granted, there'll be a time lag, but...), rather than turning your country into Turkey minor after the Austrians sacrificed quite a bit in order to push 'em back?

And this is a good thing because...?

Uh, where did you get that from? Frankly, I've my doubts. Though I suppose the local turkish interest groups might push for it... But the nation itself, fuck, no (I'd rather take chinese, anyway).

Quite. And what exactly is wrong with this...?

And with turkey's youth, the same countries will see a hell of a lot more of social problems rising (Just look at Scandinavia, Germany, France, UK...).

I take the economic problems, thanks. There's at least a way of fixing them. Social problems, not so much.

OH, no, not any racial/national stereotyping here at all.

There is know other solution for the lack of workers within europe over than Turkey's youth. Someone said that why not make and train the youth yourself? rightttttttt guess how long it would take for europe to regenerate the youth population needed? A VERY LONG TIME! europe is despertae for young workers. Its not a matter of cultures clashing for a capitalist (im a commie myself), but in fact about profits and money. Now to be honest how many of the countries within europe put democracy before economy? none! These days capital income is the most important thing because if deomocracy was the highest for the countries in europe then all the multinational european companies would cease to exist due to all the undemocratic things they commite in africa e.g extremely low wages. Its not a case of cultural indifferences anymore, its more about capital incom and that is a fact.

Pernes, Are YOU TURKISH?

Where are you from Pernes? Are you turkish?

Has it occured to you that anyone who criticises you might not be either

A) Turkish

And/Or

B) An Immigrant?

Erm... so European culture amounts to: Not identifying along tribal grounds?



No, you havent. Youmay have shown what they have at the moment, but no evidence that that cannot change.



As far as I can tell, as unfortunately I have unable to find the book yet let alone actually read the book, he defines Eastern Europe as a seperate "civilisation" yet there are "Orthodox" nations within the EU.

You are incapable of reading it seems.

European culture is based on the notion of the Autonomy of the individual. That the individual is responsible to and for themself. This is in conflict with the extended person concept of the tribal style social system in Turkey.

I have allowed that if Turkey changes its culture to become European then it should be admitted, but not until it does. I a highly sceptical of this happening, but I can be wrong. And if it does, Turkey will no longer be Turkey, it will be something else occupying that land. (As it is no longer the Ottoman empire for example)

Yes Huntingdon does hold Eastern Orthodoxy as a seperate culture and there are no Eastern Orthodox nations in the EU. The only Orthodox nations that have EU membership are Greece and Cyprus, both of which are Greek orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox.

Oh this is about the homophobic army?


No. Go read the article. It is about the possibility, or lack thereof, of being a concientious objector, but that is not the point. The point is twofold. First a columnist is on trial for suggesting that conscientious objection should be permitted and second that the Turks commenting on this seem to want that the EU should 'understand' the special sensitivities of the Turkish situation.

Both indicate strong cultural differences.

"The fact that the Turkish people drink is of no more consequence to this than the fact that the Italians fornicate is to their being a Catholic nation. What the religion requires and what the people do are two different things." AB AGAIN

For you to call youself a muslim or a chrisitian you have to abide by the rules of that religion. So, its not 2 different things is it now? you cant call yourself a true a chrisitian if you dont abide by the rules of christianity. You will only be a christian in name but not a true christian. The fact that religion being an absolute thing means that their is no ways of saying that you can do this but you still are a christian or a muslim. I am an athiest, but to say that someone is christian and not to practice their religion at all clearly shows that they are not a true christian.

So a handful of people interviewed by the BBC are going to show wheter or not Turkey is an islamic states? clearly not.

There are a thousand reasons not to let Turkey in.
And the debate about Italy's membership ended 50 years or so ago.

In other words, you cannot be said to have a right to question whether Italy should be let in or not. Or, if you have such a right, your right to question Italian entry into the EU is as mote as your right to question whether Massachusetts should be allowed entry into the United States.

You seem to be misunderstanding me on purpose. I never questioned the fact that Italy has full right to EU membership. I was just pointing out that it is a tad ridiculous to list a number of factors as seaking against membership if you can find the almost exact same situation in a country that already is a member.

skinny Turkey isnt an islamic state and never will be due to the culture! Turkey is in the top 10 athiest nations and you know why? Because within the turkish culture alcohol plays a very big role and many turkish people consume it. Now in islam it staes that you should never drink alcohol because it harram and that it could cause you to do 'awful' things. how the heck can Turkey ever be an islamic state when pretty much 80% drinkin alcohol? (sorry i know i have strayed away from the point, just answering skinny)According to this logic, the house of Saud is about as atheist as it gets, and Saudi-Arabia's government's among the most liberal in the region :P

There is know other solution for the lack of workers within europe over than Turkey's youth. Someone said that why not make and train the youth yourself? rightttttttt guess how long it would take for europe to regenerate the youth population needed? A VERY LONG TIME! europe is despertae for young workers. Its not a matter of cultures clashing for a capitalist (im a commie myself), but in fact about profits and money. Now to be honest how many of the countries within europe put democracy before economy? none! These days capital income is the most important thing because if deomocracy was the highest for the countries in europe then all the multinational european companies would cease to exist due to all the undemocratic things they commite in africa e.g extremely low wages. Its not a case of cultural indifferences anymore, its more about capital incom and that is a fact.Then why is half of Europe doing everything in its might to keep Turkey out? I'm sorry, but 'Communism vs. Capitalism, the economy rules all, and everything else is false data' has been disproven some time during the wars in former Yugoslavia...

Cultural/ Civilisational affiliations > sheer money. You might not like it, but as it's proven on a daily basis...

OH, no, not any racial/national stereotyping here at all.well, having lived in a neighborhood with an appreciable percentage of turks, having gone to a school with an appreciable percentage of turks, and - well, actually, once I entered higher educational institutions, there were no more turks, so my experience is, admittedly, limited...

Anyway, I feel that practical experience allows me this kind of politically incorrect statements. As of yet, I've yet to see anyone - including you - disproving them. Ya'know, disproving, as opposed to (Implicitly) stating 'You've a very evil man because you say thinks that don't fit by pink and fluffy view on the world'.

Nordland I'm half english and half turkish

Nordland I'm half english and half turkish

So you are turkish. If you dont want to be in the same union with Germany, vote no when your country holds a referendum for EU membership...

There is know other solution for the lack of workers within europe over than Turkey's youth. Someone said that why not make and train the youth yourself? rightttttttt guess how long it would take for europe to regenerate the youth population needed? A VERY LONG TIME! europe is despertae for young workers. Its not a matter of cultures clashing for a capitalist (im a commie myself), but in fact about profits and money. Now to be honest how many of the countries within europe put democracy before economy? none! These days capital income is the most important thing because if deomocracy was the highest for the countries in europe then all the multinational european companies would cease to exist due to all the undemocratic things they commite in africa e.g extremely low wages. Its not a case of cultural indifferences anymore, its more about capital incom and that is a fact. AB AGAIN as you can see its not about culture anymore but about capital income. o yh, so not allowing Turkey to enter the EU because of different culture is democratic? What part of democracy allows different cultures to be disallowed in to certain groups. The whole point of democracy is to put aside the race,culture and sex. What kind of demcracy would that be if Turkey is disallowed to enter the EU because of its different culture?

"The fact that the Turkish people drink is of no more consequence to this than the fact that the Italians fornicate is to their being a Catholic nation. What the religion requires and what the people do are two different things." AB AGAIN

For you to call youself a muslim or a chrisitian you have to abide by the rules of that religion. So, its not 2 different things is it now? you cant call yourself a true a chrisitian if you dont abide by the rules of christianity. You will only be a christian in name but not a true christian. The fact that religion being an absolute thing means that their is no ways of saying that you can do this but you still are a christian or a muslim. I am an athiest, but to say that someone is christian and not to practice their religion at all clearly shows that they are not a true christian.

So a handful of people interviewed by the BBC are going to show wheter or not Turkey is an islamic states? clearly not.


No you do not have to abide by all the rules to call yourself something or to have a desire to live according to the majority of those rules. If you think otherwise you are being naive.

And the handful of people who expressed their opinion (they were not interviewed. Will people learn to read here.) represent those that are concerned enough with current affairs to write a comment. As such they are the ones that will lead local ideas, the opinion formers of their society, so they are hardly irrelevant.

Anyway. I have said my piece, if you and others don't want to agree, then so be it. That is your right (in the European culture)

There is know other solution for the lack of workers within europe over than Turkey's youth. Someone said that why not make and train the youth yourself? rightttttttt guess how long it would take for europe to regenerate the youth population needed? A VERY LONG TIME! europe is despertae for young workers. Its not a matter of cultures clashing for a capitalist (im a commie myself), but in fact about profits and money. Now to be honest how many of the countries within europe put democracy before economy? none! These days capital income is the most important thing because if deomocracy was the highest for the countries in europe then all the multinational european companies would cease to exist due to all the undemocratic things they commite in africa e.g extremely low wages. Its not a case of cultural indifferences anymore, its more about capital incom and that is a fact. AB AGAIN as you can see its not about culture anymore but about capital income. o yh, so not allowing Turkey to enter the EU because of different culture is democratic? What part of democracy allows different cultures to be disallowed in to certain groups. The whole point of democracy is to put aside the race,culture and sex. What kind of demcracy would that be if Turkey is disallowed to enter the EU because of its different culture?

Stay in your country then and try to shape it into a democracy you want. Europe's demographic problems are none of your concern...

So you are turkish. If you dont want to be in the same union with Germany, vote no when your country holds a referendum for EU membership...

Hang on.... half-British classifies as full Turkish in your book? :eek:

far superior military? what the heck you on about? Britain might have the strongest navy but thats about it. British soldiers are not trained for geurrilla warfare e.g. Iraq. Britain has tiny armed compared to Turkey's, mainly because of the conscription. o yh, not only that turkish soldiers are trained for guerilla warfares and have been fighting a war with many millitant groups in the east of Turkey. The turkish airforce is the second largest after Italy's and our armed technology is up to date with britains. So what military power was you talking about?
Seriously, why has your mother let you on this computer? Shouldn't you be watching kiddies T.V programs or something?

First, of all, yes our Navy is far superior to yours. Just check out the Type 45 Destroyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_45) for example.
Secondly, no shit, we don't have conscription. Does that make our army worse than yours? No. Our troops are trained well enough thank you. They're the best trained troops in the world, far better than any Turk conscript. We've been fighting in Northern Ireland for your information.
Never heard of Northern Ireland? With your level of education I guess not. As you're obviously too much of a dumbfuck to get any facts right, I thought I'd post you a little picture to help your geography, which probably extends to your local playground. Northern Ireland is the darker blue one.
http://www.hotels.uk.com/images/northern-ireland_hotelsuk.jpg
Yes, you've been fighting people in the east. Mainly just slaughtering Kurds. Damn, oppressing a people really makes your army great.
Thirdly, you're saying your Air Force is the second largest after Italy? So tell me, to which nation does this flag belong to?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/125px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
I'm use the U.S. has a bigger Air Force than you, and I dare to say the Chinese amongst others have as well, possibly the Russian Federation and India as well.
Fourthly, learn some grammar.
Lastly, your Army is not up-to-date with ours! The aforementioned Type 45 Destroyer, the F2 Typhoon, the Meteor BVRAAM, and the upcoming Joint Combat Aircraft are all things which prove that our military is way more advanced that yours. Not to mention the Challenger II MBT, which you have nothing remotely as good as.

There is know other solution for the lack of workers within europe over than Turkey's youth. Someone said that why not make and train the youth yourself? rightttttttt guess how long it would take for europe to regenerate the youth population needed? A VERY LONG TIME! europe is despertae for young workers. Its not a matter of cultures clashing for a capitalist (im a commie myself), but in fact about profits and money. Now to be honest how many of the countries within europe put democracy before economy? none! These days capital income is the most important thing because if deomocracy was the highest for the countries in europe then all the multinational european companies would cease to exist due to all the undemocratic things they commite in africa e.g extremely low wages. Its not a case of cultural indifferences anymore, its more about capital incom and that is a fact. AB AGAIN as you can see its not about culture anymore but about capital income. o yh, so not allowing Turkey to enter the EU because of different culture is democratic? What part of democracy allows different cultures to be disallowed in to certain groups. The whole point of democracy is to put aside the race,culture and sex. What kind of demcracy would that be if Turkey is disallowed to enter the EU because of its different culture?


Bulldust.

The EU is a gathering of European Democratic countries.
Being democratic is not enough - you have to be European too.
We're not going to send invites to Japan either.

I didnt mean it like that. What i was trying to say that just because of past events and individual acts we shouldnt condem a nation from entering the EU, because if that was the case then Germany should have been eradicated for the crimes it commited! Der angst was talking about arranged marriages and stuff like that and that Turkey shouldnt be allowed because of those reasons in to the EU. thats why i replied about the world wars, because if that was the case then England should never have traded with germany!

I didnt mean it like that. What i was trying to say that just because of past events and individual acts we shouldnt condem a nation from entering the EU, because if that was the case then Germany should have been eradicated for the crimes it commited! Der angst was talking about arranged marriages and stuff like that and that Turkey shouldnt be allowed because of those reasons in to the EU. thats why i replied about the world wars, because if that was the case then England should never have traded with germany!

Fair enough to some extent - provided you admit that we have a perfect right to exclude Turkey on any ground we may think of.

There is no more a Turkish right to enter the Union than there would be a Japanese or Singaporean or South African right to enter the Union.

So you are turkish. If you dont want to be in the same union with Germany, vote no when your country holds a referendum for EU membership...
No, he is half Englihs and half Turkish. Do you have problems in reading English?

Huhain I Meant In Europe U Dumb Arse!
Firstly I Said Britain Has Superior Navy.
Secondly Slaugthering Kurds? Right You Not Alot About That Right? Exactly Then Silence Yourself.
Thirdly I Meant The Largest Airforce Europe Excluding Russia
Fourthly You Must Be Quite Thick To Argue That Turks Are Slaugthering The Kurds When What The Brits Did To Argentinians In The Falklands Where Right? Ok It Was A War But To Fight For A Coupld Of Pencuims And A Tax Driver Is Right. To Test Out Your Conventional Bombs Was Right? So Dont Start Chatting Shit

I didnt mean it like that. What i was trying to say that just because of past events and individual acts we shouldnt condem a nation from entering the EU, because if that was the case then Germany should have been eradicated for the crimes it commited! Der angst was talking about arranged marriages and stuff like that and that Turkey shouldnt be allowed because of those reasons in to the EU. thats why i replied about the world wars, because if that was the case then England should never have traded with germany!You seem to miss the part where in one case, it's the past, and in the other, it's the present. Ya'know, in one case, the perpetrators have been punished, in the other case, they're running around freely.

Or maybe this is a peculiarity of the turkish justice system, sentencing the children to death for the deeds of the parents? Wouldn't surprise me...

Once Turkey turns into a nicely democratic country where political opposition doesn't require bravery, once it ceases to smite kurds, once its affiliations with middle-eastern culture have been broken so far as to turn Turkey into a nicely protestant/ catholic/ atheist dominated society, once the vast majority of Turkey's females has the ability to choose for itself, then I might support turkish EU membership.

Until then, no dice.

Huhain I Meant In Europe U Dumb Arse!
Firstly I Said Britain Has Superior Navy.
Secondly Slaugthering Kurds? Right You Not Alot About That Right? Exactly Then Silence Yourself.
Thirdly I Meant The Largest Airforce Europe Excluding Russia
Fourthly You Must Be Quite Thick To Argue That Turks Are Slaugthering The Kurds When What The Brits Did To Argentinians In The Falklands Where Right? Ok It Was A War But To Fight For A Coupld Of Pencuims And A Tax Driver Is Right. To Test Out Your Conventional Bombs Was Right? So Dont Start Chatting Shit

Well said?
Or badly said?

i love ma country england but what they did was silly in falklands. for no reason over than to show of their military strenght during the cold war to the soviets!

What The Brits Did To Argentinians In The Falklands Where Right? Ok It Was A War

Learn some history kid before you offend everyone in the UK.

The Falklands were invaded by the Argentine military and the British defended the people there as they had an obligation to do. (It was a British PROTECTORATE at the time, guess what that means.)

This is hardly the same situation as the Kurds.

Huhain I Meant In Europe U Dumb Arse!
Firstly I Said Britain Has Superior Navy.
Secondly Slaugthering Kurds? Right You Not Alot About That Right? Exactly Then Silence Yourself.
Thirdly I Meant The Largest Airforce Europe Excluding Russia
Fourthly You Must Be Quite Thick To Argue That Turks Are Slaugthering The Kurds When What The Brits Did To Argentinians In The Falklands Where Right? Ok It Was A War But To Fight For A Coupld Of Pencuims And A Tax Driver Is Right. To Test Out Your Conventional Bombs Was Right? So Dont Start Chatting Shit
Armenian Genocide mean anything to you? Thought not. You did not state in Europe, therefore why should I make any assumptions. Excluding Russia now, what happened to Italy?
So the Argies invaded our fucking territory, of course we have the right to get it back! To test our conventional bombs? If we had wanted to do that, we could have bombed Buenos Aires, which we didn't. And the penguins, the poor things suffered enough during the war.
"The Falklands War exposed a design fault in the King Penguin. Fascinated by the helicopters and jets speeding overhead the birds are so keen to follow their every move that they crane their necks at an ever steepening angle to the sky until they lose their balance and fall over backwards. The idea of a 400,000 strong colony of birds tipping back like dominoes on to the ice is amusing". (Daily Mail, 2 November 2000).
~from the Daily Mail

i love ma country england but what they did was silly in falklands. for no reason over than to show of their military strenght during the cold war to the soviets!

Defending our territory isn't a reason anymore?

Fourthly You Must Be Quite Thick To Argue That Turks Are Slaugthering The Kurds When What The Brits Did To Argentinians In The Falklands Where Right? Ok It Was A War But To Fight For A Coupld Of Pencuims And A Tax Driver Is Right. To Test Out Your Conventional Bombs Was Right? So Dont Start Chatting ShitOh, and seeing as you like to pull distant history out of your ass - how about the Armenians? Ya'know, that 'Little' genocide Turkey has yet to admit.

Or to apologize for.

Or to recompensate for.

And somehow, 'Ethnic Cleaning' in the distant parts of Turkey to make sure these 'Dirty Kurds' don't start having a nation on their own (Sovereign rights for a nation! Self-determination! THE HORROR! Of course turkey can't allow such) doesn't strike me as quite the same as Britain defending its sovereign soil and actually limiting the combat-theatre (Ya'know, what with not bombing Buenos Aires - but then, Buenos Aires is hardly the same as a Kurdish kindergarten?)

Oh, and seeing as you like to pull distant history out of your ass - how about the Armenians? Ya'know, that 'Little' genocide Turkey has yet to admit.

Or to apologize for.

Or to recompensate for.

And somehow, 'Ethnic Cleaning' in the distant parts of Turkey to make sure these 'Dirty Kurds' don't start having a nation on their own (Sovereign rights for a nation! Self-determination! THE HORROR! Of course turkey can't allow such) doesn't strike me as quite the same as Britain defending its sovereign soil and actually limiting the combat-theatre (Ya'know, what with not bombing Buenos Aires - but then, Buenos Aires is hardly the same as a Kurdish kindergarten?)

Let him be...it's clear that he's younger than 13 years old...

Let him be...it's clear that he's younger than 13 years old...

Stop being ageist as well as racist huh. - You too were his age once, (or maybe you haven't got there yet!)

Stop being ageist as well as racist huh. - You too were his age once, (or maybe you haven't got there yet!)

He's not old enough to be told about genocides...Stop making moronic claims...

He's just stating a fact. This guy cannot be older than 13.

He's just stating a fact. This guy cannot be older than 13.

Probably true, but not all 12 year olds are that stupid and ignorant.

And NN, to make a moronic claim it would have to be one that contradicts the evidence. When have I done that?

How do you think the number of MEPs are determined for each country? EP isnt eurovision (not every country gets 1 vote). Big countries get more comissioners too. But why am I bothering? You are clearly in "younger than 15" category...Perhaps you should check how many commissioners there are and how many member states there are. 25 commissioners and 25 memberstates. You might even want to look up the job description of a commissioner as you will find that representing their country's interests is not there.

If you want to talk about how population effects power in the EU then mention QMV. However, QMV is not a power in itself. There are 3 conditions apply to voting in the Council of Europe. About 300 votes are approximately distributed according to population, over 70% is required for a proposal to pass. A majority of member states must also vote for the proposal. Finally, the votes cast must represent +62% of the population of the EU. So if you think that Turkey could just waltz into the EU and completely sway the balance of power then you are sadly mistaken.

As for you comment about MEPs, well, most dealings of the EU need only be approved by the Commission and the Council. However, the Parliament is being slowly getting more power, but this only means there are three bodies that must approve legislation as opposed to two.

Perhaps you should check how many commissioners there are and how many member states there are. 25 commissioners and 25 memberstates. You might even want to look up the job description of a commissioner as you will find that representing their country's interests is not there.

If you want to talk about how population effects power in the EU then mention QMV. However, QMV is not a power in itself. There are 3 conditions apply to voting in the Council of Europe. About 300 votes are approximately distributed according to population, over 70% is required for a proposal to pass. A majority of member states must also vote for the proposal. Finally, the votes cast must represent +62% of the population of the EU. So if you think that Turkey could just waltz into the EU and completely sway the balance of power then you are sadly mistaken.

As for you comment about MEPs, well, most dealings of the EU need only be approved by the Commission and the Council. However, the Parliament is being slowly getting more power, but this only means there are three bodies that must approve legislation as opposed to two.

Get a clue....


Council of the European Union (25 member-state ministers having 321 votes; the number of votes is roughly proportional to member-states' population); note - the Council is the main decision-making body of the EU; European Parliament (732 seats; seats allocated among member states by proportion to population); members elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year term


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ee.html

YOU GUYS PROBALY DIDNT STUDY COLD WAR? huhain you must thick as shit mate because the main reason why england smashed the argentinians was because to show off. NOW YOU CANT ARGUE AGAINST THIS BECAUSE ITS THE TRUTH. ASK ANY HISTORIAN OR YOUR HISTORY TEACHER IN YEAR 7, WHICH YOU ARE IN! armenian genocide? right and how much do you know about that? exactly shut your trap and AB AGAIN YOUR JUST TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THE REASON WHY FALKLANDS WAS ATTACKED

YOU GUYS PROBALY DIDNT STUDY COLD WAR? huhain you must thick as shit mate because the main reason why england smashed the argentinians was because to show off. NOW YOU CANT ARGUE AGAINST THIS BECAUSE ITS THE TRUTH. ASK ANY HISTORIAN OR YOUR HISTORY TEACHER IN YEAR 7, WHICH YOU ARE IN! armenian genocide? right and how much do you know about that? exactly shut your trap and AB AGAIN YOUR JUST TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THE REASON WHY FALKLANDS WAS ATTACKED


By Argentina? For sheer Braggadocio.

*befused and confuddled*

YOU GUYS PROBALY DIDNT STUDY COLD WAR? huhain you must thick as shit mate because the main reason why england smashed the argentinians was because to show off. NOW YOU CANT ARGUE AGAINST THIS BECAUSE ITS THE TRUTH. ASK ANY HISTORIAN OR YOUR HISTORY TEACHER IN YEAR 7, WHICH YOU ARE IN! armenian genocide? right and how much do you know about that? exactly shut your trap and AB AGAIN YOUR JUST TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THE REASON WHY FALKLANDS WAS ATTACKED

We showed off? By getting a ship sunk by a french-made Exocet missile and taking weeks to clear an island of invaders? Hell of a way to show off. Plus we were defending our territory...however bleak and miserable it was.

YOU GUYS PROBALY DIDNT STUDY COLD WAR? huhain you must thick as shit mate because the main reason why england smashed the argentinians was because to show off. NOW YOU CANT ARGUE AGAINST THIS BECAUSE ITS THE TRUTH. ASK ANY HISTORIAN OR YOUR HISTORY TEACHER IN YEAR 7, WHICH YOU ARE IN! armenian genocide? right and how much do you know about that? exactly shut your trap and AB AGAIN YOUR JUST TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THE REASON WHY FALKLANDS WAS ATTACKED

Nice flaming, but how old were you in 1982? I was 20. I lived through the Falklands conflict and I remember it very well thank you.

The Argentine military Junta was in severe difficulties at home, so it set about distracting public attention by foreign conquest (sound familiar - think Bush and Iraq) of a potentially important oil region. The British reacted and defended the Falklands from this foreign aggression, at the request of the Falklanders themselves.

If you want to believe that it was some muscle flexing exercise by the Thatcher government, then you go ahead and believe it, but you will be wrong.

Nice flaming, but how old were you in 1982? I was 20. I lived through the Falklands conflict and I remember it very well thank you.

The Argentine military Junta was in severe difficulties at home, so it set about distracting public attention by foreign conquest (sound familiar - think Bush and Iraq) of a potentially important oil region. The British reacted and defended the Falklands from this foreign aggression, at the request of the Falklanders themselves.

If you want to believe that it was some muscle flexing exercise by the Thatcher government, then you go ahead and believe it, but you will be wrong.

Take it elsewhere. This thread isnt for Falklands War...

This is as good a time as any to hijack the thread :D

YOU GUYS PROBALY DIDNT STUDY COLD WAR? huhain you must thick as shit mate because the main reason why england smashed the argentinians was because to show off. NOW YOU CANT ARGUE AGAINST THIS BECAUSE ITS THE TRUTH. ASK ANY HISTORIAN OR YOUR HISTORY TEACHER IN YEAR 7, WHICH YOU ARE IN! armenian genocide? right and how much do you know about that? exactly shut your trap and AB AGAIN YOUR JUST TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THE REASON WHY FALKLANDS WAS ATTACKED

Argentina attacked England, England retaliated. The whole war might have been stupid, but England were certainly not making the wrong decisions, such as attacking Argentina. They stuck to the Falkland islands, which has some 3000 british citizens living there, last time I checked.

The Armenian Genocide happened between 1914 and 1923 in (mainly during 1915-1917 though), gasp, Armenia. How about you actually come with a counter-argument? Over a million people died, due to Turkey's actions, and they still deny this. This is simply wrong.

Take it elsewhere. This thread isnt for Falklands War...

Tell it to Pernes. :p

We showed off? By getting a ship sunk by a french-made Exocet missile and taking weeks to clear an island of invaders? Hell of a way to show off. Plus we were defending our territory...however bleak and miserable it was.

To be fair, there were internal political motivations to engage in an armed conflict at the time. I fail to see how this could be viewed as showing off the the Russians however.

To quote Wikipedia:
The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre) refers to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of the Young Turks (Committee of Union and Progress) from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire. Some aspects of the event are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, and claims that the deaths among the Armenians were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I. However this postion is contrary to the evidence as reported by nearly every eyewitness observer from the time - even from German and Austrian allies of Turkey who reported back to their nations of indiscriminant massacres and deprivations against Armenians on a grand scale and no significant Armenian counter action to justify such of any kind. Likewise the overwhelming position of genocide scholars and of professional and public opinion is that a deliberate genocide was commited by the Ottoman Turks against the ethnic Armenian citizenry. The indisputable result of this genocide is the near complete abscence of the once vibrant and most ancient Anatolian Armenian population and civilization in their once native lands. Furthermore, the majority of genocide scholars and the world community as a whole views the ongoing Turkish denial of this genocide as absurd and shameful.
More can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide).
So, let's think, why did we attack Argentina? Because they invaded our territory. Why is that not clear to you?

To quote Wikipedia:

More can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide).
So, let's think, why did we attack Argentina? Because they invaded our territory. Why is that not clear to you?

So Mass Evacuation = Genocide? LOL. Then What about German Genocide? Russians killed 1.5 million Germans when they were "evacuating" them....Not only they didnt apologize for that, they didnt even apologize for raping millions of german women. They didnt even return the treasures in German museums!!!

So Mass Evacuation = Genocide? LOL. Then What about German Genocide? Russians killed 1.5 million Germans when they were "evacuating" them....Not only they didnt apologize for that, they didnt even apologize for raping millions of german women. They didnt even return the treasures in German museums!!!

Take it elsewhere. This thread isnt for German Genocide :p

Take it elsewhere. This thread isnt for German Genocide :p


Anyway, I think Turkey should be allowed to be EU because I have this pink elephant, and it is pretty.

Get a clue....



http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ee.htmlLearn to read. Did you read my second paragraph? It refers to the checks and balances in place on the Council of Europe. You'll have to excuse me for mistakenly refering to the Council of the European Union as the Council of Europe, but when there is a Council of Europe, a Council of the European Union, and the European Council it does get a bit confusing. So please, read up on how the European Union works. May I suggest http://europa.eu. Unfortunately the infomation is not in norwegian, but it has the infomation in Finnish, Swedish, Danish and English, so understanding what it written there shouldn't be too much of a problem for you.

Actually, so that you don't have trouble finding the infomation here is a direct link to the English page with a little drop down menu in the top right for changing the language.
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/showPage.asp?id=242&lang=en&mode=g

Take it elsewhere. This thread isnt for German Genocide :p

I made this thread. It'll be what I say. If you dont like it, go make your own thread and discuss it with your age group.

I made this thread. It'll be what I say. If you dont like it, go make your own thread and discuss it with your age group.

It doesn't work that way in general. The thread goes where it goes. The OP has no special rights.

I made this thread. It'll be what I say. If you dont like it, go make your own thread and discuss it with your age group.

I hijacked this thread earlier, so it is now my property.

Kindly leave this thread :p

Learn to read. Did you read my second paragraph? It refers to the checks and balances in place on the Council of Europe. You'll have to excuse me for mistakenly refering to the Council of the European Union as the Council of Europe, but when there is a Council of Europe, a Council of the European Union, and the European Council it does get a bit confusing. So please, read up on how the European Union works. May I suggest http://europa.eu. Unfortunately the infomation is not in norwegian, but it has the infomation in Finnish, Swedish, Danish and English, so understanding what it written there shouldn't be too much of a problem for you.

Actually, so that you don't have trouble finding the infomation here is a direct link to the English page with a little drop down menu in the top right for changing the language.
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/showPage.asp?id=242&lang=en&mode=g

They will have largest representation in CoEU and EP. This is "Power". They dont have to have majority to be strong. This is what I mean when I said "get a clue".

I made this thread. It'll be what I say. If you dont like it, go make your own thread and discuss it with your age group.

*points and laughs at My Nordlands naiveity*

So Mass Evacuation = Genocide? LOL. Then What about German Genocide? Russians killed 1.5 million Germans when they were "evacuating" them....Not only they didnt apologize for that, they didnt even apologize for raping millions of german women. They didnt even return the treasures in German museums!!!
Actually, yes. The accepted international definition of genocide includes forced evacuation. And, yes, the Soviets did their good share of it, before, during and after WW2 and not only against Germans either. Russia still rather not touch the issue and prefers to blame it on the Soviet regime.

Actually, yes. The accepted international definition of genocide includes forced evacuation. And, yes, the Soviets did their good share of it, before, during and after WW2 and not only against Germans either. Russia still rather not touch the issue and prefers to blame it on the Soviet regime.

As far as I know, however, they don't deny that it happened though, they just put the blame on someone else.

Which is only very slightly better than what Turkey is still doing.

Actually, yes. The accepted international definition of genocide includes forced evacuation. And, yes, the Soviets did their good share of it, before, during and after WW2 and not only against Germans either. Russia still rather not touch the issue and prefers to blame it on the Soviet regime.

Soviet regime my ass. I'm still pissed about that. If I ever get into a position of power, the Russians had better pray that crops will grow in nuclear fallout.

Ah yes - another Ny Nordland "I hate Turkey for some reason" thread.

Due to your country not actually being in the EU any more than Turkey is, I suggest that you shut up about this one, Nordland.

They influenced our culture in the renaissance, Turkey tought European scholars about science when we were just about getting out of the dark ages, and they haven't really done anything to harm us in ages.

World War 1 notwithstanding.

Soviet regime my ass. I'm still pissed about that. If I ever get into a position of power, the Russians had better pray that crops will grow in nuclear fallout.

Then don't expect me to vote for you, since I don't think that your crops, or many other crops for that matter, will be growing in nuclear fallout.

At least Turkey doesn't have a nuclear bomb that they can threaten the EU with :p

Soviet regime my ass. I'm still pissed about that. If I ever get into a position of power, the Russians had better pray that crops will grow in nuclear fallout.
Yes, well you're an utter twat, so the world is pretty safe, to be honest. Communists and Muslims alike, and whoever else you have an irrational prejudice against.

Have you not seen what Turkish youth are doing to Europe?

and they haven't really done anything to harm us in ages.

World War 1 notwithstanding.

I consider 400 years to be pretty recent.

At least Turkey doesn't have a nuclear bomb that they can threaten the EU with :p
No, but UK does, another reason why we're more powerful.

Yes, well you're an utter twat, so the world is pretty safe, to be honest. Communists and Muslims alike, and whoever else you have an irrational prejudice against.

Excuse me? They raped 2 million German women. I demand vengeance. Yes, I will resort to genocide. Yes, you will see my ugly side.

I made this thread. It'll be what I say. If you dont like it, go make your own thread and discuss it with your age group.

Wow! My way or the highway, eh NN? Too bad for you this thread isn't just "what you say," Herr Kontrol Freak.

Excuse me? They raped 2 million German women. I demand vengeance. Yes, I will resort to genocide. Yes, you will see my ugly side.
...and another defeat for Germany followed by an Allied invasion.

Excuse me? They raped 2 million German women. I demand vengeance. Yes, I will resort to genocide. Yes, you will see my ugly side.

Well, it's nice that you're power-tripping on being the next Hitler, but back to reality, you have no power and you're not in a position to "resort" to genocide.

...and another defeat for Germany followed by an Allied invasion.

Not this time. I'm taking the world down with me.

They will have largest representation in CoEU and EP. This is "Power". They dont have to have majority to be strong. This is what I mean when I said "get a clue".Well if the Turks are as different as you suggest then power will be mitigated by their cultural differences and no one will vote with them.

Did you know that a block of countries representing 10% of the EU can block any legislation in the Council? So your fearmongering that Turkey would hold undue amounts of power is ridiculous. The Council is set up to progress via unanimious descisions, rather than majority voting. So the population of a county isn't as important as you make it out to be.

Well, it's nice that you're power-tripping on being the next Hitler, but back to reality, you have no power and you're not in a position to "resort" to genocide.

Oh, only against the Russian-... no, the Rapist Federation.

Excuse me? They raped 2 million German women. I demand vengeance. Yes, I will resort to genocide. Yes, you will see my ugly side.
The Germans killed millions of Russians indiscriminately. I'd be rather pissed off too, to be honest.

And 400 years is not that recent.

Excuse me? They raped 2 million German women. I demand vengeance. Yes, I will resort to genocide. Yes, you will see my ugly side.

And how many Russian women did the Wehrmacht, SS and EinsatzKommando groups rape and kill? I'm hardly condoning the Soviet's actions, but the German troops then were no better old chum.

Oh, only against the Russian-... no, the Rapist Federation.

No, you're not in a position of power to "only" commit genocide against Russia either. Sorry but I'm still stuck on this "reality" concept.

Not this time. I'm taking the world down with me.
Even Malawi?

The Germans killed millions of Russians indiscriminately. I'd be rather pissed off too, to be honest.

And how many Russian women did the Wehrmacht, SS and EinsatzKommando groups rape and kill? I'm hardly condoning the Soviet's actions, but the German troops then were no better old chum.

Yes. We know. Every second German diplomatic act is apologising for it. We're sorry and sorry and sorry and sorry...

So you should be.

i say no it is more middle eastern than european

Yes. We know. Every second German diplomatic act is apologising for it. We're sorry and sorry and sorry and sorry...

I rather thin you're exaggerating to gain a victim complex. Tell me, when was the last time the German government apologised for the war crimes? I suspect it was a while ago. Which is good. It shouldn't be held over the heads of Germans forever.

Yes. We know. Every second German diplomatic act is apologising for it. We're sorry and sorry and sorry and sorry...
Yes, the world knows that. But that doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Britain's apologised for Dresden in the past, the buildings still got blown up.

A small part of Turkey is geographically European. As for culturally.... well I suppose if you really put your mind to it, you could make being culturally European completely meaningless, to the point anyone could be considered this way. But personally, I see Turkey as culturally European as I am Aztec. I don't think an islamic county should ever be considered European and the last think I want for Britain is for Turkish gangs roaming the streets and pushing our rape statistics even higher.

Yeah yeah first thing I will do is come over there and rape and pillage your fair skinned women arr arr! Because we dont have any...yes that was a goverment secret until now, as a result of a different kind of bird fflu we lost all female population a long time ago, since then we have to kidnap and rape women to reproduce.
yes the horrible truth...the entire population of turkiye is male, we just disguise some of them like women to hide the truth we are all bisexual that fuck like an animal with anything that moves and breathes, some of us dont even need something that breathes :eek: I can understand that the sole number of testicles you are accepting to Eu can drive a mortal insaneeee :eek:

Yes. We know. Every second German diplomatic act is apologising for it. We're sorry and sorry and sorry and sorry...

We? Last time I looked, you were still Australian, weren't you?

Yeah yeah first thing I will do is come over there and rape and pillage your fair skinned women arr arr! Because we dont have any...yes that was a goverment secret until now, as a result of a different kind of bird fflu we lost all female population a long time ago, since then we have to kidnap and rape women to reproduce.
yes the horrible truth...the entire population of turkiye is male, we just disguise some of them like women to hide the truth we are all bisexual that fuck like an animal with anything that moves and breathes, some of us dont even need something that breathes :eek: I can understand that the sole number of testicles you are accepting to Eu can drive a mortal insaneeee :eek:

Wow.... those big women in those colourful clothes called Aische and Goenuel and Chanan sure fooled me...

The people have spoken but the EU, committed to "democracy", still proceeds with negotiations with Turkey...

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/3677/40871788turkeysupport2gra2035t.gif

The people have spoken but the EU, committed to "democracy", still proceeds with negotiations with Turkey...

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/3677/40871788turkeysupport2gra2035t.gif

It's not up to you. You're not a part of the EU. It's none of your business. At least, that's what I remember you saying was the rule. If you're not part of the EU, it's none of your business, per Ny Nordland.

It's not up to you. You're not a part of the EU. It's none of your business. At least, that's what I remember you saying was the rule. If you're not part of the EU, it's none of your business, per Ny Nordland.

Aww...But our politicians try to get us into EU all the time. USA, on the other hand, will never be part of EU.

Aww...But our politicians try to get us into EU all the time. USA, on the other hand, will never be part of EU.
But they haven't done so yet, so it really has nothing to do with you, as Jocabia points out.

Worry about staying out of the EU instead, huh.

Aww...But our politicians try to get us into EU all the time. USA, on the other hand, will never be part of EU.

Yeah, mind your own business and stay out of the business of a sovereign union of nations of which your nation is not a part. The amusing part is that you would wish us to stay out of an intellectual discussion about whether Turkey is European and you would inject yourself into a political discussion about two political entities of which you are not a part.

Yeah, mind your own business and stay out of the business of a sovereign union of nations of which your nation is not a part. The amusing part is that you would wish us to stay out of an intellectual discussion about whether Turkey is European and you would inject yourself into a political discussion about two political entities of which you are not a part.

An american discussing EU and a european discussing EU are different things. You are just mad because I didnt let u kiss me...:D

An american discussing EU and a european discussing EU are different things. You are just mad because I didnt let u kiss me...:D

I wasn't discussing the EU. I was discussing the continents that Turkey is a part of. It was an intellectual discussion. Being from Norway gives you no better hold on the truth of that matter.

The people have spoken but the EU, committed to "democracy", still proceeds with negotiations with Turkey...

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/3677/40871788turkeysupport2gra2035t.gif
If put to a referendum, this will fail. So then, time the EU became democratic.

An american discussing EU and a european discussing EU are different things. You are just mad because I didnt let u kiss me...:D
When people are just telling you to stay out of it, your best bet would be to just ignore them. They're trying to annoy you, don't rise to it.

If put to a referendum, this will fail. So then, time the EU became democratic.

Austria and France will put it on referendum. And they will reject...It'll be a big crises, Turkey being the only country not let into the Union eventhough they completed the negotiations. So it's wiser to just stop negotiations now....

When people are just telling you to stay out of it, your best bet would be to just ignore them. They're trying to annoy you, don't rise to it.
He said only people involved directly are welcome in the discussion. We don't actually think that. We are just regurgitating his poorly chewed argument from earlier.

Austria and France will put it on referendum. And they will reject...It'll be a big crises, Turkey being the only country not let into the Union eventhough they completed the negotiations. So it's wiser to just stop negotiations now....
Indeed. This is going to be a mess. The only country to go over 50% is Hungary. That is it. It will fail in all other countries in which it is put to a referendum.

He said only people involved directly are welcome in the discussion. We don't actually think that. We are just regurgitating his poorly chewed argument from earlier.
But it does get tiresome when you repeat it over and over again like a parrot.

Austria and France will put it on referendum. And they will reject...It'll be a big crises, Turkey being the only country not let into the Union eventhough they completed the negotiations. So it's wiser to just stop negotiations now....

And subjugate democracy? Weren't you just complaining it's not democratic?

Still haven't shown why you should be talking about this when you said unless people are directly involved it's imperialism to weigh in.

Indeed. This is going to be a mess. The only country to go over 50% is Hungary. That is it. It will fail in all other countries in which it is put to a referendum.

LOL...I can imagine it..."90% of Austrians said no!!"...Ahh, I'd love to see the face of eurocrats in Brussels when the results come....

But it does get tiresome when you repeat it over and over again like a parrot.
I am just surprised the EU does not take account of this, when it is complaining about how it's not perceived as "democratic".

LOL...I can imagine it..."90% of Austrians said no!!"...Ahh, I'd love to see the face of eurocrats in Brussels when the results come....
But they know it already. I don't think it will be surprise. I think they will be burying their heads in the ground.

I am just surprised the EU does not take account of this, when it is complaining about how it's not perceived as "democratic".
Yeah, ignore that post, it was aimed for someone else but I pressed Reply With Quote on the wrong post. My bad.

But they know it already. I don't think it will be surprise. I think they will be burying their heads in the ground.

No way they know it! They live in their fantasy world which is Brussels...

No way they know it! They live in their fantasy world which is Brussels...
Oh they know it. They know a lot about what is going on in the EU. They just choose to ignore it.

Oh they know it. They know a lot about what is going on in the EU. They just choose to ignore it.

Or they will do multiple referendums until they get the results they want. Hopefully that wont happen, at least in Austria...

No.

Or they will do multiple referendums until they get the results they want. Hopefully that wont happen, at least in Austria...
They will just piss of the populace and give cannon fodder for the Euro-sceptics. So that would be dumb dumb DUMB. But yeah, they might do it.

They will just piss of the populace and give cannon fodder for the Euro-sceptics. So that would be dumb dumb DUMB. But yeah, they might do it.

Oh they will try. They dare to talk about constitution after more than 60% of the dutch rejected....That's absolute majority, duh!

Oh they will try. They dare to talk about constitution after more than 60% of the dutch rejected....That's absolute majority, duh!
They have to rewrite it. It's trash as it is. Austria will hopefully do something about it.

They will just piss of the populace and give cannon fodder for the Euro-sceptics. So that would be dumb dumb DUMB. But yeah, they might do it.
I couldn't really see the wisdom for any politician to do that. If a government put a referendum back to the public immediately after they rejected it, it would only make them more determined to reject it again. The politicians would see this so I doubt they want to damage their chances of re-election through this kind of behaviour.

I couldn't really see the wisdom for any politician to do that. If a government put a referendum back to the public immediately after they rejected it, it would only make them more determined to reject it again. The politicians would see this so I doubt they want to damage their chances of re-election through this kind of behaviour.
Welcome to the EU.

Welcome to the EU.
Oh, I realise what the EU's like and I realise that those who run the EU would love to see this happen. But I still couldn't see a domestic politician doing this when all it would do is damage their career, which is the only thing they care about.

Oh, I realise what the EU's like and I realise that those who run the EU would love to see this happen. But I still couldn't see a domestic politician doing this when all it would do is damage their career, which is the only thing they care about.
There I would agree. Domestic politicians -and especially the notoriously Eurosceptic UK ones- would definitely be wary of engaging in such actions.

Discussions about the boundries of Europe are so pointless. It's not even a proper continent. It's only a continent because the inhabitants were too lazy to get out of its boundries and see the rest of Eurasia before proclaiming themself to be a continent.

From what I have read I can see that there are lots of people in this forum with good knowledge of history. Especially if someone knows about Turkish history I can say that they really know about European history. Whether we are enemies or friends we have changed roles uncountable times in history.
As the historically most close one was Ottoman Empire, founded as a Turkish nation and later became a multinational- multi religional empire its history is closely tied with entire european history. When Fatih Sultan Mehmet, the Conqueror conquered Constantinapole at 1453, at the age of 23 he told about his dream to all people gathered in Istanbul. He told those people that he intended to accomplish what Alexander the Great left unfinished. As an ambitious young 'emperor' he clearly explained he will unite the western and eastern culture and create the über Helen culture. He was a truly great leader, called western artists to make his paintings and patroned them, called eastern philosophers, mathematicians, astronomers etc. His will was found upon culture and civilization and people around him, the sadrazam (prime minister) and viziers(vezir, ministers) were all wise and capable.
later in times of Yavuz Sultan, which again was a young and exremely active and ambitious leader turks conquered Egypt, took more middle east lands, taking hold of islamic artifacts and halifelik, khalifate (which was by then turned into a religious control tool over muslims just as church and pope did in west, but in east the power of religion in that time was always under control of state, just like it was in orthodoxs and those bloodshed in europe between kings and church had never took place)
In the time of Sultan Suleyman 'the magnificent' the wealth and power of Ottoman empire was at its peak, the empire was able to create whole battle fleets that any other was able to create in 5 to 10 years in 3 months of time. It was those times that turks made their contact with americans and approved their independence (first to approve it) and took taxes to protect american trade from anyone in south seas. I cant remember correctly but it was around those times Cyprus was taken.
ın all these times Ottoman was always in contact with european kingdoms, mostly pitting one of them against each other and giving them good trade deals over another. Sometimes it was france sometimes it was england sometimes it was a fight between Russia etc.
Later with the sea trade gaining advantage over land routes and later with industry revolution ottoman empire economically declined. Its culture, aristocacy was too sophisticated to support without ever growing economy. It was overgrown to create not one but two kinds of literature. One for the nobles and high class, containing french, arabic, persian and of course turkish :p about overcomplex esoteric, symbolic poems created to be esthetically perfect, by use of mathematics and sometimes numerology etc people spent entire life times over it. and other by the simple folk, türk public literature, of songs about thrill of hunt, love, self sacrifice for country etc which later turned into a lament about lost values of the palace, their wish for more justice and right governence etc.
At europe there were many intellectuals freed from chains of churchs slavery which were fascinted by this neighbour imperial culture and its wealth and glory. Orientalists were first in for it because of their fascination but later a powerful advisor kind for european politics about Ottoman empire. It was undeniable, meddling in Ottoman politics was controlling politics from Vienna to russia, arabian lands, egypt the canal, north africa etc. Those are the places where europe fought over for control in later times when ottoman was out of scene and even today israel, America, England, Eu and Russia have much investments which they intend to benefit from.
This area is highly populated, has rich resources and very important.


Turkiye has many strenghts that should never be underestimated. We have the strongest army in this area. We have a strong numbers, we have cultural ties and able to friendly make deals with nearly everyone from here to Afghanistan. We are no longer an empire but a free democratic and secular nation which is a lot more focused in a smaller area and therefore can use its power more easily. On the other hand We have incredible politic corruption, huge economic problems and an ex cold war mess still to be cleaned up. The tortures of cold war reflect to this day as an strong anti american view. The invasion of all european countries over these lands and plans to drive turks out of area and recreate armenia, greece andmany little powerless puppet nations from ex ottoman citizens is still fresh in memory. So if Us or EU continues to boss around turkiye and act arrogantly they will cause a strong public reaction.
But on the other hand turkish people want better life standarts and aware of that we have every oppurtunity in our lands to get rich without help of anyone. But still think it would be a lot easier with help of some allies, who have experianced problems and solved them and have good welfare like european union would really really make it a lot easier
I dont entirely agree on it because its not as easy as it sounds but I dont go against it because of racist or religionist arguements. I look things in practicality, Eu has too many problems and havent really decided where its headed yet. I wish for more sincere relationships and alliances with EU but personally dont want to become a part of it if its an extension of old racial and religional fascism of europe. It can be only sincerely done with young people with new and clear ideas. Not ancient politicians from old crusader cults that still look to divide and destroy turkiye because they and install small puppet nations, and therefore feeding terror, selling guns and drugs, laundring black money in turkiye. And housing islamic terror organisations over europe and letting them gather money from people over there to be spend over to destroy secular Turkish republic with dreams of installing seriat regime like Iran.
Eu is reluctant, Russia is not, Putin has vision and has strong motivations to make alliance with turkiye to further complete the circle around europe, england and their reach to eastern energy resources, markets. Of course he is not stupid to make war on Eu, it earns him nothing but milking Eu for energy and giving a share to turkiye especially seems like a good idea. He openly stated that he intends to support secular strong turkish goverment and keep Mustafa Kemals views in high esteem. In the end it seem Turkiye will become strong allies with Russia, add turkish nations from ex soviet lands to alliance, further strenghten its power by its technological alliance from south korea and since Korea and japan has rising tensions will not be on that good terms with EU, england, Usa and japan in the future. There is a possibilty of keeping good relations with Japan if they can lower tension with korea.
I believe we will solve turkiyes problems after hanging a good deal of corrupt politicians and start to act real smart soon. It will take some time to stones to roll but it will be. We have never stayed weak for long in history, even if there is one turk alive we will survive and grow strong again. Freedom and rights can be earned only that way.
Its mostly possible that china turkiye relations will be kept in middle with worries about Uygur population thats oppressed. But I think there can be found a middle way to give them more freedom without making a war with china in the long run, oprressing people costs them money after all.

is turkiye european? by some means we are truly more european than most european countries. But I would much rather call us Eurasian. Unlike middle eastern image it means we are not arabians and have effect on both european and asian politics.

<snip-history lesson>

is turkiye european? by some means we are truly more european than most european countries. But I would much rather call us Eurasian. Unlike middle eastern image it means we are not arabians and have effect on both european and asian politics.

1) Ok, Turkey made an impact on European history. So what? Does that make them european? No way. UK made an impact on African history, more than any other African nation itself, but they arent African.
2) What means are they?

NO:

1) Different culture
2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
3) Its Capital is in Asia
4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history

Diskuss...

It not European nor Asian. It's Eurasian.

Old boring issue....

Its yer loss :p You just look at immigrants and get afraid and I agree that first two generations of immigrants to EU were a abomination, culturally. Those poor people had no idea of their own history and culture to begin with so they got stuck with what little wrong information they had and just got beated by neo nazis daily as they did the worst jobs available ever.
But thats another subject, I blame my country for letting its people suffer more than blaming Eu not treating them good.

1- We have always been a part of European politics, actively effected it for centuries and we will be a part of it. In Eu or not, as an ally or as neutral or enemy but we will have dealings. No matter what Turkiye will stand as one piece, secular republic, we are not going anywhere, giving a piece of land to anyone. Not by words or not by guns.

2- We are more democratic and understanding to various races, religions and cultures and still carry a good deal of our past multicultural empires unifying politics so a lot more european in the context of civilization as I explained in my history lesson. The works of different ottoman sultans to recreate and finish Alexander the greats project to form Helen culture as the ultimate west-east synthesis. We have more experience and cultural discipline to make any new empire work, If EU is to become something strong and great instead of being a groweling place of small Eu countries to bigger ones for funds etc. The only revival of a civilization like Rome can be achieved by an ultimate unification which will approximately take a few hundred years.
But your little non EU member fascist country doesnt have that kind of vision and ambition I fear. Too bad for you. One way or another people like me will take place in the founding of a new Eurasian empire, with EU or not. Although it would be easier for me to just defend racist Turanist views of Turkish union and place seeds of hate and mistrust against treacherous crusader-genocider christian europeans Im taking the pains to explain people that you history and experiences are worth preserving and compassion, and even though your weak old leaders still want us dead, there are young european generations that will eventualy see that without hate politics there are greater things to achieve for everyone.
Am I mistaken? will there never be peace? will english just arm another minorities like they did to Rums(greeks) or as russians did to armenians? and one day our next door good christians gather to cut our throats? Must we seek to destroy you out of fear of one day you may all become christian nazis?Will that empire too collapse even if it is made? Must I teach my young to destroy europeans no matter what because they will never accept us as friends? My family had to leave its land and richness in greece out of fear of rising greek nazism. Will it continue like this? Do you intend to reincarnate old blood feuds out of empty fear?
If you decide to do so please by all means use nukes because I dont have stomach to see anymore bloodshed like you allowed to happen in Bosna Hersek just because they were muslims.

Its yer loss :p You just look at immigrants and get afraid and I agree that first two generations of immigrants to EU were a abomination, culturally. Those poor people had no idea of their own history and culture to begin with so they got stuck with what little wrong information they had and just got beated by neo nazis daily as they did the worst jobs available ever.
But thats another subject, I blame my country for letting its people suffer more than blaming Eu not treating them good.

1- We have always been a part of European politics, actively effected it for centuries and we will be a part of it. In Eu or not, as an ally or as neutral or enemy but we will have dealings. No matter what Turkiye will stand as one piece, secular republic, we are not going anywhere, giving a piece of land to anyone. Not by words or not by guns.

2- We are more democratic and understanding to various races, religions and cultures and still carry a good deal of our past multicultural empires unifying politics so a lot more european in the context of civilization as I explained in my history lesson. The works of different ottoman sultans to recreate and finish Alexander the greats project to form Helen culture as the ultimate west-east synthesis. We have more experience and cultural discipline to make any new empire work, If EU is to become something strong and great instead of being a groweling place of small Eu countries to bigger ones for funds etc. The only revival of a civilization like Rome can be achieved by an ultimate unification which will approximately take a few hundred years.
But your little non EU member fascist country doesnt have that kind of vision and ambition I fear. Too bad for you. One way or another people like me will take place in the founding of a new Eurasian empire, with EU or not. Although it would be easier for me to just defend racist Turanist views of Turkish union and place seeds of hate and mistrust against treacherous crusader-genocider christian europeans Im taking the pains to explain people that you history and experiences are worth preserving and compassion, and even though your weak old leaders still want us dead, there are young european generations that will eventualy see that without hate politics there are greater things to achieve for everyone.
Am I mistaken? will there never be peace? will english just arm another minorities like they did to Rums(greeks) or as russians did to armenians? and one day our next door good christians gather to cut our throats? Must we seek to destroy you out of fear of one day you may all become christian nazis?Will that empire too collapse even if it is made? Must I teach my young to destroy europeans no matter what because they will never accept us as friends? My family had to leave its land and richness in greece out of fear of rising greek nazism. Will it continue like this? Do you intend to reincarnate old blood feuds out of empty fear?
If you decide to do so please by all means use nukes because I dont have stomach to see anymore bloodshed like you allowed to happen in Bosna Hersek just because they were muslims.

1) China effects European politics but that doesnt make china european or europe chineese.
2) I asked you to explain yourself when you said "by some means we are more european than most europeans" and you come up with tolerance? LOL. Tolerance isnt a european thing, it's universal.
3) So it's either friends or enemies? Havent you heard being neutral or just not caring about each other? Besides we can be friends without u entering the EU. And besides, just because I oppose Turkey's EU membership doesnt mean I want Turkey to get worse. Rejoice, be wealthy, make a civilization that'll stand to the test of time :D Just do it outside Europe. Oh btw from a pragmatic point of view, Turkey being rich is better for me. Then some/most of the millions of turkish immigrants in Europe might return to Tukey. And Europe can make more money by selling more goods to you.

Oh and FYI, if you count our Antartic Territory, Norway is bigger than Turkey :D

What do you think EU is? Turks coming over to stay in your houses? LOL, our lands are much more beautiful than any place in europe, after all we didnt mess it by industry revolution. There are more europeans coming to rest and have fun to turkiye than turks going over to europe.
We just need a better economy to put more and better cities on it and redistribute population to entire area with more planed economy thats all. You dont get what will happen if TR joins Eu, all you think and fear is more imigrants coming over there to work. You are stuck at same point while I can come up with so many possible outcomes and oppurtunities. Without the ability to use any situation to your advantage you can't go far, instead of trying to get rid of immigrants you must learn to use them. Which some intelligent europeans are doing with great success, creating excellent citizens and soldiers from them, some of the best in european armies are well disciplined turks. Without learning to adept to changes you are sure to be extinct as your politic views.

What do you think EU is? Turks coming over to stay in your houses? LOL, our lands are much more beautiful than any place in europe, after all we didnt mess it by industry revolution. There are more europeans coming to rest and have fun to turkiye than turks going over to europe.
We just need a better economy to put more and better cities on it and redistribute population to entire area with more planed economy thats all. You dont get what will happen if TR joins Eu, all you think and fear is more imigrants coming over there to work. You are stuck at same point while I can come up with so many possible outcomes and oppurtunities. Without the ability to use any situation to your advantage you can't go far, instead of trying to get rid of immigrants you must learn to use them. Which some intelligent europeans are doing with great success, creating excellent citizens and soldiers from them, some of the best in european armies are well disciplined turks. Without learning to adept to changes you are sure to be extinct as your politic views.

No, thx. You can get back your immigrants and "use" them anytime...:D

Without learning to adept to changes you are sure to be extinct as your politic views.


No, thx.

I think that about sums up the thread.

3) So it's either friends or enemies? Havent you heard being neutral or just not caring about each other? Besides we can be friends without u entering the EU. And besides, just because I oppose Turkey's EU membership doesnt mean I want Turkey to get worse. Rejoice, be wealthy, make a civilization that'll stand to the test of time :D Just do it outside Europe. Oh btw from a pragmatic point of view, Turkey being rich is better for me. Then some/most of the millions of turkish immigrants in Europe might return to Tukey. And Europe can make more money by selling more goods to you.
Too true. ^^

Attempt to frighten My Nordland:
http://www.economist.com/images/ga/2005w41/euTurkey.jpg

LOL, undelia.
Yes IMO Turkey(espicially north turkey) is like europe in many ways and should be part of EU. Theres a lot of reasons for this. One of the main reasons is that in the long run it will turn the cultural values of the turks to match us in the rest of europe and the other way around, thereby stabalizing the continent even more than it is now. Also a lot of new business oppertunities will properly start poping up for both parties.

And to NY NORDLAND(Nyt norge ?) fears about Turks floating Norway, I can't see the problem, it will be pretty hard for them to get in, and the next time norway has an election they will proply elect the party fremskridts partiet into power of the country, making norway even harder to get into.
At the moment i think Norway has about 1-1,5% (based on stats from 2003-2004) of it population coming from the middle eastern country's. Compared to other countrys in the region norway hasent even begun to take their share of immigrants, shame on you. And its not because you don't have the resources, with all the oil money literally floating in. Actually I think that Denmark should retake norway and claim all your oil fields. *Just kidding* ;)

So quite whining... or say it as it is....You seem to have a problem living next door to people of a certian skin color....
BTW. This is not a "I hate norway" post. I have quite a few nice norwigian friends, a few colleuges and my wife is 1/4 Norwigian ;) and think norwigians are generally a kind people.

Hokay.
Here's my plan.
We invade Turkey, while raging about Anschluss.
( There's some Sudeten-Greeks in Izmir, anyway. )

We then annexe it to the EU.

Everybody happy?

Turkey has two problems in getting EU membership (aside from the fact that it's in Asia, not Europe):

IIRC, existing EU members (including Greece and Cyprus) have a veto on new memberships
EU members are required to respect the human rights of their citizens, which Turkey does not


LOL, undelia.
Yes IMO Turkey(espicially north turkey) is like europe in many ways and should be part of EU.

Fine, the northern part (a very small percentage of Turkey's population) can get into the EU, the rest can't as it is not in Europe

that we try to view the Europen Union as either purely political or purely geographic. Or when we view it as a mix we places a different emphasis.
Personally I think Turkey SHOULD be European in terms of EU membership, although geographically its diversity should be respected.

Politically it is to our advantage in terms of potential bridge building, from what i know of hatred of Europe it comes from a perceived religious hegemony within it... therefore bringing in another world religion could probably help.

The more pressing question is that of why Israel is in Eurovision...

Attempt to frighten My Nordland:
http://www.economist.com/images/ga/2005w41/euTurkey.jpg

Yankees making comment on EU matters...:rolleyes:
That handshake will lead to ---> Eurabia:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7503/40754068eustoryafp2pi.jpg

Yankees making comment on EU matters...:rolleyes:
Norwegians making comment on EU matters...:rolleyes:

Norwegians making comment on EU matters...:rolleyes:

People repeating other people over and over with mindless chatter....:rolleyes:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11113941&postcount=451

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11114247&postcount=454

Yes.:)

1.Different culture
2.A small part is in Europe geographically
3.It's capital is in Asia
4.Has always been a part of East European history with alliances and wars.

Culturally not European, geographically a small part of it stands in Europe as Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaidjan. But politically and historically they gave much more to Europe than Norway contributes to Europe;)


Nothing to add to this... it's the perfect answer. It astounds me how many ignorant people there are in the world. Is Russia more European than Turkey? The only grounds I can think of for this opinion is because its Christian. In which case what about Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia? need we go on? More than 30% of Turkey's population could trace direct descendants who lived on 'European mainland'.. that certainly strengthens the argument. And if that's not enough, how much of Eastern Europe, formerly part of the Ottoman Empire, has been influenced by Turkey and vide-versa? Take a visit to these countries and see for yourself and then re-think your historically and culturally inaccurate opinions.

People repeating other people over and over with mindless chatter....:rolleyes:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11113941&postcount=451

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11114247&postcount=454
Take the hint then, rather than posting another 1,300 pieces of nonsense.

But difference between Ireland vs Turkey is much more than Ireland vs Germany.[/QUOTE]


Strictly this is inaccuarte. There are more Turks living in Ireland than there are Germans and , as irish citizens with irish passports they are actually giving more to Irish culture than frankfurters. Are you not aware that oustide your limiting borders that the rest of the world is now becoming more mixed?

Funnily enough, the part of it which does lie in Europe is that which Greece lays claim to.

Incorrect. Greece lies claim to large parts of Anatolia, not just the European side. The fact that they do so further supports the argument that Turkey falls within Europe's borders because, if Anatolia was Greek, would the people here think Greece shouldn't be in the EU?

Nothing to add to this... it's the perfect answer. It astounds me how many ignorant people there are in the world. Is Russia more European than Turkey? The only grounds I can think of for this opinion is because its Christian. In which case what about Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia? need we go on? More than 30% of Turkey's population could trace direct descendants who lived on 'European mainland'.. that certainly strengthens the argument. And if that's not enough, how much of Eastern Europe, formerly part of the Ottoman Empire, has been influenced by Turkey and vide-versa? Take a visit to these countries and see for yourself and then re-think your historically and culturally inaccurate opinions.

Almost half the population in Brazil can trace direct descendants who lived on 'European mainland'....That doesnt make Brazillians European...:rolleyes:
Thinking before posting is rare on this thread, I guess...