NationStates Jolt Archive

NO:

1) Different culture
2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
3) Its Capital is in Asia
4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history

Diskuss...

Culturarly? No. Geographically? No. In terms of EU membership? Depends on if it can live up to the EU's demands, and if the citizens of the EU say okay to the expansion.

Culturarly? No. Geographically? No. In terms of EU membership? Depends on if it can live up to the EU's demands, and if the citizens of the EU say okay to the expansion.

Eu membership is for european countries, so it shouldnt have been able to apply in the first place...

what the hell does point 4 mean?

what are the scandanavians then?

Yes. It is also a NATO member and an EU candidate. It has also had a profound influence on European culture.

Yes.:)

1.Different culture
2.A small part is in Europe geographically
3.It's capital is in Asia
4.Has always been a part of East European history with alliances and wars.

Culturally not European, geographically a small part of it stands in Europe as Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaidjan. But politically and historically they gave much more to Europe than Norway contributes to Europe;)

Eu membership is for european countries, so it shouldnt have been able to apply in the first place...
That's why it's for the citizens to decide. The EU can try it, but it's a democratic institution, or at least it says it is. It should try and prove it.

Yes.:)

1.Different culture
2.A small part is in Europe geographically
3.It's capital is in Asia
4.Has always been a part of East European history with alliances and wars.

Culturally not European, geographically a small part of it stands in Europe as Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaidjan. But politically and historically they gave much more to Europe than Norway contributes to Europe;)

Please enlighten me as to what they have contributed to europe besides turkish coffee and turkish bath?

1) Different culture
German culture is way different than Irish or Portugese culture, but they're all in Europe

2) Only 3% of its territory is in Europe
Most of Russia isent in Europe anyways
and what are you using to measure Europes boundaries?


3) Its Capital is in Asia
Yep


4) Has always been regarded as a foreign invader in history
Regarded by who as foreign?

If France attacks Belgium, theyre a foreign invader, even tho therye both European nations

That's why it's for the citizens to decide. The EU can try it, but it's a democratic institution, or at least it says it is. It should try and prove it.

People's opinion? Go finland!!!


Public opinion

Public opinion in EU countries generally opposes Turkish membership, though with varying degrees of intensity. The Eurobarometer May-June 2005 survey shows that 52% of EU citizens are against Turkey joining the EU, while about 35% are in favour. Citizens from the new member states are more in favour of Turkey joining (48% in favour) than the old EU-15 (32% in favour). The country whose population most strongly opposes Turkish membership is Austria (pro: 10%, con: 80%), while Finland (pro:75%, con: 16%) is the population that supports Turkish accession the most.

Continents are such a stupid concept...

Most of Russia isent in Europe anyways
and what are you using to measure Europes boundaries?

Isn't most of Russia's population in its European region though? Isn't its central government in Europe? Is Russia even being considered for EU membership? No. It is irrelevant, for now.

It's financial capital (more important than the government capital), is the same city that was the capital of a European power than existed for over 1000 years, and if I'm not mistaken Turkey inheirted a lot from empire it replaced which in turn inheirted a lot from the empire it conquered.

The Roman and Byzantium empire extended far into Asia and the Ottoman Empire extended far into Europe, much more than modern day Turkey does. To state that there is a clear cut line as to where the Eastern border of Europe lies is sheer foolishness.

People's opinion? Go finland!!!
Yep. It should be put to a referendum in every nation. If our Constitution needs universal approval in the EU, so should further expansion, given the citizenry's dissatisfaction of the EU's disengagement from them on most issues, such as the former.

German culture is way different than Irish or Portugese culture, but they're all in Europe


Most of Russia isent in Europe anyways
and what are you using to measure Europes boundaries?



Yep



Regarded by who as foreign?

If France attacks Belgium, theyre a foreign invader, even tho therye both European nations

Regarded by all europeans as foreign. There were wide alliances when they were sieging Vienna.
German culture is different then Ireland. But difference between Ireland vs Turkey is much more than Ireland vs Germany.

Discuss*

Well,I think of it as Euraisan but literally yes it is mostly in Asia but it is part of the EU which means European union.So as long as part of it is in Europe it is European.

Well,I think of it as Euraisan but literally yes it is mostly in Asia but it is part of the EU which means European union.So as long as part of it is in Europe it is European.
Funnily enough, the part of it which does lie in Europe is that which Greece lays claim to.

It's financial capital (more important than the government capital), is the same city that was the capital of a European power than existed for over 1000 years, and if I'm not mistaken Turkey inheirted a lot from empire it replaced which in turn inheirted a lot from the empire it conquered.

The Roman and Byzantium empire extended far into Asia and the Ottoman Empire extended far into Europe, much more than modern day Turkey does. To state that there is a clear cut line as to where the Eastern border of Europe lies is sheer foolishness.

Roman Empire extended to Egypt too. Will you argue thet Egypt is european?

Roman Empire extended to Egypt too. Will you argue thet Egypt is european?
Or Australia even, since it's a former British colony.

Regarded by all europeans as foreign. There were wide alliances when they were sieging Vienna.
German culture is different then Ireland. But difference between Ireland vs Turkey is much more than Ireland vs Germany.How about Greek, Hungarian, Romanian, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and all the other cultures that exist in South Eastern Europe? Are they not European as Turkic influence is evident in their cultures.

Discuss*

No shit :rolleyes:

How about Greek, Hungarian, Romanian, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and all the other cultures that exist in South Eastern Europe? Are they not European as Turkic influence is evident in their cultures.

Is it evident really? Besides turkish coffee and bath. Maybe you can enligten us.

Please enlighten me as to what they have contributed to europe besides turkish coffee and turkish bath?

Have you ever even been to Southern Europe and the East? Heard the music, read the literature, seen the architecture?

I do not define Turkey as European. The history of Europe has been defined by its experience of key events: the Military Revolution, the Enlightenment, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation and the Renaissance to name but a few. Turkey has experienced none of these and as a result is totally different to Europe in political, cultural and economic terms.

Have you ever even been to Southern Europe and the East? Heard the music, read the literature, seen the architecture?
The Ottoman Emprie (with its core in Turkey) occupied everything in souther Europe, pretty much up to Austria

Transcontinental nation ftw!! W00T! :p

So yes. It's european and it's asian. Bitchin'! :cool:

The Ottoman Emprie (with its core in Turkey) occupied everything in souther Europe, pretty much up to Austria
And in the past 2-300 years after Ottoman reign ended in most Southern European countries, they have not changed back?

Continents should be used to divide land, not people.
No, Turkey is not in Europe. (Well, a tiny part of it is.)
Should it be in the UE? Not right away, but later, maybe.

Turkey is more Middle Eastern than European. Thats the way I see it.

The Ottoman Emprie (with its core in Turkey) occupied everything in souther Europe, pretty much up to Austria

Precisely. To reduce its impact on European history and culture to "coffee and baths" is indicative of a severe lack of knowledge about the past.

Roman Empire extended to Egypt too. Will you argue thet Egypt is european?Why do you always have to take an arguement to an extreme. Extremes are never reasonable.

But take this if you will. I give you the example of the Hagia Sophia/Ayasofya. It is a true blend of Orthodox Christianity and Islam and is situated in Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul. Cultures mix and change, there are no clear cut boundaries as you suggest. Greek culture is far closer to that of Turkey's than to Norway's.

No, the great religous diversity comparing to the EU and more importantly the geographical location clearly indicate that Turkey is actually a part of Asia and not a part of Europe. Therefor I also think that Turkey is currently not ready to become a member of the EU.

Continents should be used to divide land, not people.
No, Turkey is not in Europe. (Well, a tiny part of it is.)
Should it be in the UE? Not right away, but later, maybe.
Which would, in turn, be contingent upon the desire of the EU citizens to expand so much further.

Why do you always have to take an arguement to an extreme. Extremes are never reasonable.

But take this if you will. I give you the example of the Hagia Sophia/Ayasofya. It is a true blend of Orthodox Christianity and Islam and is situated in Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul. Cultures mix and change, there are no clear cut boundaries as you suggest. Greek culture is far closer to that of Turkey's than to Norway's.
Lamentably. Greece may still change though.

And in the past 2-300 years after Ottoman reign ended in most Southern European countries, they have not changed back?

You have apparently never been to the Balkans. Just take a look at this picture of Sarajevo. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/Photos/sarajevo6.jpg) And this. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/Photos/sarajevo9.jpg) And this. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/photos/mcg%20saraj%20trip.jpg)

Which would, in turn, be contingent upon the desire of the EU citizens to expand so much further.

Well, i dont know how further should EU expand. As long as it doesnt do any harm to any of the currect countries in EU, i don't see any problem. The name would eventually be changed, though :rolleyes:

Precisely. To reduce its impact on European history and culture to "coffee and baths" is indicative of a severe lack of knowledge about the past.
quite so, that waht I meant to say, I guess I implied that

No, the great religous diversity comparing to the EU and more importantly the geographical location clearly indicate that Turkey is actually a part of Asia and not a part of Europe. Therefor I also think that Turkey is currently not ready to become a member of the EU.
:D
But they'll be ready once the continental drift has moved Turkey closer to the European mainland...

You have apparently never been to the Balkans. Just take a look at this picture of Sarajevo. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/Photos/sarajevo6.jpg) And this. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/Photos/sarajevo9.jpg) And this. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/photos/mcg%20saraj%20trip.jpg)
Which were all built in the time of the Ottoman Empire. Like Roman ruins in Britain which were built in the time of the Roman Empire.

I always thought Turkey to be more of an Islamic culture rather than European or Asian....

I don't think geography matters, nor does religion. The nation's politics matter.

Well, i dont know how further should EU expand. As long as it doesnt do any harm to any of the currect countries in EU, i don't see any problem. The name would eventually be changed, though :rolleyes:
:eek: Manifest destiny anyone? *prepares to defend homeland*

quite so, that waht I meant to say, I guess I implied that

I would say that the Ottoman empire contributed to the development of Europe historically speaking, but once you accept the fact that the empire was well on the decline by the start of the 17th and definitely the 18th century, coupled with the fact that by this period the development of science had been placed in a theological straight jacket I'd say it contributes little to Europe in its present form. Bosnia and Herzegovina is one of the exceptions, it is certainly not the rule.

I would say that the Ottoman empire contributed to the development of Europe historically speaking, but once you accept the fact that the empire was well on the decline by the start of the 17th and definitely the 18th century, coupled with the fact that by this period the development of science had been placed in a theological straight jacket I'd say it contributes little to Europe in its present form. Bosnia and Herzegovina one of the exceptions, it is certainly not the rule.
Indeed. Greece was also greatly affected by the movements you mentioned before, which culminated in the unmaking of many Ottoman influences.

And in the past 2-300 years after Ottoman reign ended in most Southern European countries, they have not changed back?No. cultures don't change back. They change, but never backwards to a past state. Greece has not regressed back to the politcal state it was in before the empires of the Ottomans, the Byzantines, the Romans and Alexander.


To be honnest, if a candidate country can meet the economic and politcal requirements set out by the commission I couldn't care less where the country is geographically located.

You have apparently never been to the Balkans. Just take a look at this picture of Sarajevo. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/Photos/sarajevo6.jpg) And this. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/Photos/sarajevo9.jpg) And this. (http://www.tfeagle.army.mil/Units/Eagle/MWR/mwrweb/tours/sarajevo/photos/mcg%20saraj%20trip.jpg)

By your "logic", can Vietnam be considered european because of this building? And it was invaded by europeans?

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9346/46statue9wj.jpg

Which were all built in the time of the Ottoman Empire. Like Roman ruins in Britain.

Would you deny Europe's culture to this day is not influenced by Rome?

And comparing the bustling Bascarsija of Sarajevo to a ruin shows you've never been to the Balkans, let alone that you have any sense of how much of the modern culture in that area still shows signs of Eastern influence.

No. cultures don't change back. They change, but never backwards to a past state. Greece has not regressed back to the politcal state it was in before the empires of the Ottomans, the Byzantines, the Romans and Alexander.


To be honnest, if a candidate country can meet the economic and politcal requirements set out by the commission I couldn't care less where the country is geographically located.
And meet with the approval of the EU citizenry. If the institution is to call itself democratic, it is to bind itself to the will of the citizens.

As for Greece, it was heavily influenced by Renaissance Europe. That led to significant changes in its culture.

By your "logic", can Vietnam be considered european because of this building? And it was invaded by europeans?

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9346/46statue9wj.jpg

You would deny European influence on Vietnam as you do Turkish on Europe and vice versa?

You would deny European influence on Vietnam?!?
With this guy, nothing suprises me.

Would you deny Europe's culture to this day is not influenced by Rome?
Europe's? To a degree, yes. Britain's? Britain is a rule unto itself.

And comparing the bustling Bascarsija of Sarajevo to a ruin shows you've never been to the Balkans, let alone that you have any sense of how much of the modern culture in that area still shows signs of Eastern influence.
What I meant is that such images only show that there was once an Eastern empire ruling over the nations. They mean little else.

Lamentably. Greece may still change though.Well if that isn't blatent xenophobia then I'm not sure what is.

Greece is now what it is, and is a wonderful place for it.

With this guy, nothing suprises me.

Actually Vietnam used to be called "French Indochina" it was a French colony.

I think Turkey debates are due to a significant difference in Conservative Europe and Eastern Europe. Slavic people tend to see Turkey in a much positive POV than the western people. In fact whether one should accept or refuse, Turks has been a part of Eastern Europe history. Many wars fought with the Slavic nations and Russia but also lots of alliances and shared trust made with Ottamans. And Turks are the only nation that stands in their lands in Anatolia after the war with a whole capitalist western alliance in their independence war. I respect their leader Moustapha Kemal and the still ongoing war against fundemantalist Islamics. They are unique for their presence in Islamic world which is no more than dictatorships that offers a primitive lifestyle for their people. To sum up, from an eastern POV, Turks are a part of this region whether we hate or like them. But many western European do not know much about the history and the culture of Turks, and tend to discriminate against them as they see turks as invaders, raiders, Arablike Islamic minions. But these are due to propoganda of christianity and western emperialism and the lifestyle of euroturks - i mean those living in western europe. But in fact they share many common cultural archetypes after living so long on former christian lands. There are Turks that are as worthless as the terrorists and that are adorable ones as national heroes and icons throughout history. You may not be self biased when assesing nations and countries. Each has good and bad sides. Anyway, I don't think they become a part of EU soon because it is already known that christianity is still a great motive behind it and in fact it does not held much power even compared to China on its own. Just a gathering place for Western Europeans to cry for the last breathe against the demise of their politic and economic power against US the almighty:) So, i don't even think Turks are allowed to join to this tiny representation by their current official business partner USA:)

Actually Vietnam used to be called "French Indochina" it was a French colony.
I know, I was talking about ny. I should of made that clear. :)

You would deny European influence on Vietnam as you do Turkish on Europe and vice versa?

No. Just because Ottamans erected few buildings in Balkans doesnt make Turks european.

Well if that isn't blatent xenophobia then I'm not sure what is.

Greece is now what it is, and is a wonderful place for it.
It is different to the country it once was, a nation of philosophers and great thinkers. The Byzantine Empire too, despite its religious austerity, was marvellous. Greece is a shadow of its former self when juxtaposed against these images. Call it xenophobia, call it nostalgia, call it what you like.

Depends on where the Turkey is. I'm sure there are European Turkeys.

Turkey has roughly 400,000 people living in Europe who might be a little offended at being told they are not European.

By your "logic", can Vietnam be considered european because of this building? And it was invaded by europeans?

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9346/46statue9wj.jpg

No one is saying the influence makes it part of a continent. However, you are denying that influence. By your argument, the only thing that Europe contributed to the US is French fries.

Turkey has roughly 400,000 people living in Europe who might be a little offended at being told they are not European.

They are european, that doesnt make Turkey european.

So, if a chinese came to live in Europe, China would start being european? Please.

They are european, that doesnt make Turkey european.

So, if a chinese came to live in Europe, China would start being european? Please.
Yep. It's a matter of immigration to Europe in this case, not a matter of their native country becoming part of Europe.

Europe's? To a degree, yes.

To a degree? To a degree?! Don't make me question your grasp of history. We still feel the repercussions of Rome. Or would you claim, say, the Pope is imaginary? Or that French, Spanish, Portuguese and the rest don't exist? Or that the very language we are writing in now is not chaulk full of latinisms?

What I meant is that such images only show that there was once an Eastern empire ruling over the nations. They mean little else.

That's like saying "The Akropolis shows there used to be people in ancient Greece, but that means little else." Or "the great wall of Visby shows it used to be a Hansestadt, but that means little else."

All those remnants of past mean a lot, lot more than "little else."

Regarded by all europeans as foreign. There were wide alliances when they were sieging Vienna.
German culture is different then Ireland. But difference between Ireland vs Turkey is much more than Ireland vs Germany.


i think your just too polite to say its a matter of religion...

personally i dont agree on Turkey joining the EU, because its not European, and i mean Geographically..

but culturally, Turkey has the same culture in Albania, Bosnia and other parts in the Balkans... i dont think they shouldnt be banned due to their culture, believe me Iceland is WAY different then Malta, while Malta is more similar to Turkey then to Iceland...

Continents are merely man's vain and trivial attempt to classify the world, resulting in vague boundaries on what is ultimately one landmass.

I am more irritated by the fact that the European Union is named “The European Union”. How limiting. How shortsighted. Should not an organization whose purpose is to facilitate peaceful cooperation between nations not be so regionally limiting. Did no one foresee that such a name would simply create a new era of “us” and “them”. As it is already evidenced by the OP and the opinions of most in Western Europe?

No. Just because Ottamans erected few buildings in Balkans doesnt make Turks european.

And just because you have no idea of what "European" means, doesn't make them non-Europeans.

And meet with the approval of the EU citizenry. If the institution is to call itself democratic, it is to bind itself to the will of the citizens.

As for Greece, it was heavily influenced by Renaissance Europe. That led to significant changes in its culture.Yes, changes to what was new. And if Turkey can change to being a liberal democratic state then I don't see why it can't join the EU. We let individual Turks in, so why not the whole country?

And what constitutes approval? A referendum or simple compliance? If the citizens dislike something, but can't be bothered to get off their arse and protest then they obviously don't dislike it enough.

To a degree? To a degree?! Don't make me question your grasp of history. We still feel the repercussions of Rome. Or would you claim, say, the Pope is imaginary? Or that French, Spanish, Portuguese and the rest don't exist? Or that the very language we are writing in now is not chaulk full of latinisms?
The Ottoman Empire has not had that influence though on most of Southern Europe, besides some countries in the Balkans.

They are european, that doesnt make Turkey european.

So, if a chinese came to live in Europe, China would start being european? Please.

They LIVE in Europe and TURKEY, at the same time. They are European WHILE living in Turkey. You give an example where they are mutually exclusive.

Yes, changes to what was new. And if Turkey can change to being a liberal democratic state then I don't see why it can't join the EU. We let individual Turks in, so why not the whole country?

And what constitutes approval? A referendum or simple compliance? If the citizens dislike something, but can't be bothered to get off their arse and protest then they obviously don't dislike it enough.
You call the rejection of a fundamental EU Constitution based on the fact that the EU is not transparent and democratic enough apathy? A referendum would be in need. If they can pass both hurdles of living up to the EU's standards, and attaining EU-wide citizen approval, then they can enter the EU.

And just because you have no idea of what "European" means, doesn't make them non-Europeans.

What does European mean then?

The Ottoman Empire has not had that influence though on most of Southern Europe, besides some countries in the Balkans.

You aren't actually arguing that the Ottaoman Empire did not have a profound effect on European culture, are you? That thinking is a bit narrow, don't you think? You might argue that it's not the biggest influence Europe has experienced, but denying the profound influence of the Ottoman Empire seems silly to me.

They LIVE in Europe and TURKEY, at the same time. They are European WHILE living in Turkey. You give an example where they are mutually exclusive.

Your talking about the 3% of Turkey in Europe? Well, yes, that part is Europe. And they can be considered european for all i care. Yet, Turket, as a country, is not european. If they enter the EU eventually, they might be considered european, even though they'r not in Europe. Wait, why are we debating this?

What does European mean then?
Nothing. It arbitrary.

But politically and historically they gave much more to Europe than Norway contributes to Europe;)

Norway isnt a part of the EU either

You aren't actually arguing that the Ottaoman Empire did not have a profound effect on European culture, are you? That thinking is a bit narrow, don't you think? You might argue that it's not the biggest influence Europe has experienced, but denying the profound influence of the Ottoman Empire seems silly to me.
No, I am not saying it didn't have an influence on Europe. To the extent that ancient Greece, Rome, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and so on did though? Definitely not.

They LIVE in Europe and TURKEY, at the same time. They are European WHILE living in Turkey. You give an example where they are mutually exclusive.

So by your "logic", spanish in Ceuta are african? :rolleyes:

The Ottoman Empire has not had that influence though on most of Southern Europe, besides some countries in the Balkans.

Wait, so suddenly when it shown that the Ottoman empire did, in fact, inflence Europe, you diminish it in stead of denying it?

Please. Do travel a bit around South-Eastern Europe. You're in dire need of it.

In any case, Turkey has as much "right" to be in the EU and as much "right" to be European as Cyprus has.

Your talking about the 3% of Turkey in Europe? Well, yes, that part is Europe. And they can be considered european for all i care. Yet, Turket, as a country, is not european. If they enter the EU eventually, they might be considered european, even though they'r not in Europe. Wait, why are we debating this?

It's a country that is part of both continents and evidences the problem with the current defintions. Is Turkey European? Undoubtedly. It can be proven by looking at a map and asking its people. Is Turkey Asian? Yessirree. Again ask a geographer or its people. There are few historians or geographers would deny Turkey its European-ness. This is a political argument about whether it belongs in the EU by people with an agenda. However, it's rather clear that regardless of whether it belongs in the EU, it is a part of Europe.

Nothing. It arbitrary.Woo! Summation of the thread. Right, we can all go home and sleep now.

Nothing. It arbitrary.

San Antonio? Where is it? Where are you from?

Wait, so suddenly when it shown that the Ottoman empire did, in fact, inflence Europe, you diminish it in stead of denying it?

Please. Do travel a bit around South-Eastern Europe. You're in dire need of it.

In any case, Turkey has as much "right" to be in the EU as Cyprus has.
When did I deny it? I was denying the exaggeration of it.

I never said Cyprus had a right to be in it anyway. Not unless it ceded sovereignty to Greece.

Nothing. It arbitrary.

European means nothing? Wait. What does dictionary mean?

Norway isnt a part of the EU either

But Norway is a part of Europe. And their part of the EEA, and their much similar to the rest of Europe culturally.

What does European mean then?

Most certainly not what you seem to claim.

Nothing. It arbitrary.

Well I can't exactly define what it is to be American. That does not mean that China is part of the USA.

So by your "logic", spanish in Ceuta are african? :rolleyes:

If you were born on the continent of Africa and so were all of your ancestors, one cannot deny that you are African. And again, you fail to recognize the difference between national boundaries and territories. Countries do, why is it so hard for you to recognize such a profound difference in the way a country regards such land.

It's a country that is part of both continents and evidences the problem with the current defintions. Is Turkey European? Undoubtedly. It can be proven by looking at a map and asking its people. Is Turkey Asian? Yessirree. Again ask a geographer or its people. There are few historians or geographers would deny Turkey its European-ness. This is a political argument about whether it belongs in the EU by people with an agenda. However, it's rather clear that regardless of whether it belongs in the EU, it is a part of Europe.

Since you are an american you are in no position to conclude who is european or not. Especially "undoubtedly". It is up to europeans to consider who is european.

So by your "logic", spanish in Ceuta are african? :rolleyes:Shall we start talking about Moorish influence in Spain?

San Antonio? Where is it? Where are you from?

Ha. For someone who is claiming to be rationally regarding arguments, why is it so important that you address where people are from. Does his argument change if he's from Africa?

It's a country that is part of both continents and evidences the problem with the current defintions. Is Turkey European? Undoubtedly. It can be proven by looking at a map and asking its people. Is Turkey Asian? Yessirree. Again ask a geographer or its people. There are few historians or geographers would deny Turkey its European-ness. This is a political argument about whether it belongs in the EU by people with an agenda. However, it's rather clear that regardless of whether it belongs in the EU, it is a part of Europe.

Yeah, you do have a point. The thing is, i don't consider Turkey to be european because most of it is in Asia. And erm. I dont see what the point in this is, really.
But culturally, Turkey is very rich, and yes, it has lots of european influences and vice-versa, yet, it's not european.

Since you are an american you are in no position to conclude who is european or not. Especially "undoubtedly". It is up to europeans to consider who is european.

Ha. Ad hominems again. "I don't have an answer for that argument so I will deem you to be some form of 'unqualified'". Ridiculous and a logical fallacy, all in one.

European is a geographic designation. It's not something up for vote.

Most certainly not what you seem to claim.

What is your claim?

No, I am not saying it didn't have an influence on Europe. To the extent that ancient Greece, Rome, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and so on did though? Definitely not.

Of course, it could be argued that another group of Muslims in Europe (specifically the Moors), and the technology and knowledge they brought with them, and learnt,moo from other Muslim lands, helped spark the Renaissance...

Since you are an american you are in no position to conclude who is european or not. Especially "undoubtedly". It is up to europeans to consider who is european.Fuck that, I reckon he's got just as much right as you or I. He has brain doesn't he? But really it is Turkey that has the most right to determine whether or not it is European. Yay for self-definition. :D

Of course, it could be argued that another group of Muslims in Europe (specifically the Moors), and the technology and knowledge they brought with them, and learnt,moo from other Muslim lands, helped spark the Renaissance...
And? How is this relevant to the Ottoman Empire? It's not an argument whether or not Muslim influences exist. It is focused on the Ottomans themselves.

Yeah, you do have a point. The thing is, i don't consider Turkey to be european because most of it is in Asia. And erm. I dont see what the point in this is, really.
But culturally, Turkey is very rich, and yes, it has lots of european influences and vice-versa, yet, it's not european.

It IS undoubtedly European. It's also Asian. It's a part of both continents and one has to shut their eyes to deny this. It is one country. One can't deny the part in Europe nor deny the part in Asian. So one MUST acknowledge both parts.

If you were born on the continent of Africa and so were all of your ancestors, one cannot deny that you are African. And again, you fail to recognize the difference between national boundaries and territories. Countries do, why is it so hard for you to recognize such a profound difference in the way a country regards such land.

This is 21st century. Ceuta isnt a colony but part of spanish nation, as it is few km away from mainland spain....

When did I deny it? I was denying the exaggeration of it.

It is very hard to exaggerate the influence the area that is now Turkey has had on Europe - from being a passage way through which we got so much from the East, to being the place that so many of our large historical events took place (Constantinople, and that huge piece of history that surrounds it, for instance).

I never said Cyprus had a right to be in it anyway. Not unless it ceded sovereignty to Greece.

Cyprus already is an EU member state.

San Antonio? Where is it? Where are you from?
It's in Texas, son.;)
Well I can't exactly define what it is to be American.
Nor would I want you to.
That does not mean that China is part of the USA.
Right, but the argument could easily be made that border towns in Mexico are as much a part of the US as much of my home state.

Now, if you're talking about America the continent, we have the fortune of being separated from the rest of ya'll by an ocean, but hey Russia's awful close to Alaska and polar bears manage to migrate the distance every year...

Fuck that, I reckon he's got just as much right as you or I. He has brain doesn't he? But really it is Turkey that has the most right to determine whether or not it is European. Yay for self-definition. :D

And they say they are bicontinental.

Fuck that, I reckon he's got just as much right as you or I. He has brain doesn't he? But really it is Turkey that has the most right to determine whether or not it is European. Yay for self-definition. :D
And up for the EU and its citizens to say who gets in or not. Yay for autonomy.

I don't think geography matters, nor does religion. The nation's politics matter.

i agree with this.

As far as i can tell the arguement is should Turkey be allowed to become a member of the EU. Religious differences and occasional rescist remarks aside. A country should be able to attempt to join any trade agreement it desires if it meets the criteria. Despite the EU now having a common currency, passport etc (as far as i know) it started off as a Trade Agreement and it is seen as a Trading Bloc. Politically many countries can see the benefit of joining it and desire to do so. those that meet the criteria should be allowed to do so. Religion/Culture does not come into it and neither does Geographic location.

For those that wish examples of why these factors shouldn't be included. NAFTA - North American Free Trade Agreement last time i checked mexico is central american with a spanish heritage.

ASEAN (look it up if you haven't heard of it) - in alot of regards it is the South east asian version of the EU and a major trding Bloc in the region.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/asean/

ASEAN has ten dialogue partners: Australia, Canada, China, EU, India, Japan, New Zealand, ROK, Russia and the United States. The United Nations Development Program (UNDP) also has dialogue status.

Ironically note that one of the partners is the EU and some non asian countries are trying to gain admission.

When it comes to religion i ask what do u think the difference is between a Christian, a Jew, or a Muslim. despite the way we worship and some of our beliefs technically it's the same god (apologies to anyone who finds that offensive). i also ask what is the fundemental difference between an human of any religion, Christian, Buddhist, Shinto, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion apart from thier beliefs. i find any arguement on grounds of religion in poor taste to say the least and more often then not idiocy. (we've done just as much harm to them in name of religion as they have to us, we all have our fanatics)

i'm saying this as an Australian, and a Catholic. As someone who has lived in Indonesia and i'll point out before anyone comments on it's massive muslim population that it's also secular.

Shall we start talking about Moorish influence in Spain?

Turkey got some european influence. But that doesnt make turkey european. Vietnam got some european influence as well, but that doesnt make it european. Moorish influence in Spain doesnt make spain african as well...

And? How is this relevant to the Ottoman Empire? It's not an argument whether or not Muslim influences exist. It is focused on the Ottomans themselves.
Yes, but it's my understanding that the moors were greatly influenced by the Ottomans...so the Ottomans can be seen there influencing by proxy, if you will.

It is very hard to exaggerate the influence the area that is now Turkey has had on Europe - from being a passage way through which we got so much from the East, to being the place that so many of our large historical events took place (Constantinople, and that huge piece of history that surrounds it, for instance).
Either way, for the most of Europe, it has not had nearly enough influence to define what is or isn't European.

Cyprus already is an EU member state.
I am well aware.

What is your claim?

My claim is that you have no idea what "European" is. You're not even from a country in the EU. How can you know what is European? What, only you get to use "you're from the US, so you know nothing"?

Yes, but it's my understanding that the moors were greatly influenced by the Ottomans...so the Ottomans can be seen there influencing by proxy, if you will.
That's a huge leap to make though. Especially since the Renaissance itself had little to no impact on Turkey, both old and modern.

Ha. Ad hominems again. "I don't have an answer for that argument so I will deem you to be some form of 'unqualified'". Ridiculous and a logical fallacy, all in one.

European is a geographic designation. It's not something up for vote.

Europe is a geographic designation. European is not. It is cultural. You are in no position to make silly remarks as who is part of this culture undoubtedly. Because you, yourself are not part of this culture(s).

My claim is that you have no idea what "European" is. You're not even from a country in the EU. How can you know what is European? What, only you get to use "you're from the US, so you know nothing"?
Norway isn't in the EU? Well, I guess you learn something everyday.:)

Turkey is NOT in Europe, Geographically... it is in Asia, but for some strange reasons it is participating in the European Football CUP...:headbang:

It IS undoubtedly European. It's also Asian. It's a part of both continents and one has to shut their eyes to deny this. It is one country. One can't deny the part in Europe nor deny the part in Asian. So one MUST acknowledge both parts.
Yes! Let's hear it again for the transcontinental nation.

This is not a black-and-white issue, y'all!

Europe is a geographic designation. European is not. It is cultural. You are in no position to make silly remarks as who is part of this culture undoubtedly. Because you, yourself are not part of this culture(s).
I guess xenophobes exist in every part of the world, even Scandinavia.

It IS undoubtedly European. It's also Asian. It's a part of both continents and one has to shut their eyes to deny this. It is one country. One can't deny the part in Europe nor deny the part in Asian. So one MUST acknowledge both parts.

undoubtedly again? :rolleyes: LOL. USA imperialism is in your blood I guess. Dictating to others who should be considered among them.

That's a huge leap to make though. Especially since the Renaissance itself has little impact on modern Turkey.
It's not such a huge leap. The Ottomans greatly influenced the Moors, who in turn passed on to the Europeans. Without the Ottoman influence, it's possible to say the Moors would never got so advanced, and would never have (accidently) helped kick off the Renaissance. So they're central to the whole history of early-modern European development. And their invasions of Europe, right up to Vienna, helped spur European military development, which in turn, gave them a massive advantage over the people the Europeans met in the New World.

It's in Texas, son.;)

Nor would I want you to.

Right, but the argument could easily be made that border towns in Mexico are as much a part of the US as much of my home state.

Now, if you're talking about America the continent, we have the fortune of being separated from the rest of ya'll by an ocean, but hey Russia's awful close to Alaska and polar bears manage to migrate the distance every year...

Ahh, a texan commenting who is european or not. :D

Well I can't exactly define what it is to be American. That does not mean that China is part of the USA.
American. A citizen of the USA. :)

Either way, for the most of Europe, it has not had nearly enough influence to define what is or isn't European.

Ever heard of something called the "Orthodox Church?" The "Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire?" There is a reason I mentioned Constantinople. Most of Europe? It seems your knowledge of "most of Europe" stops somewhere east of Poland, and north of Slovenia.

I am well aware.

If we consider Cyprus part of Europe, than we have to consider Turkey part of Europe as well.

It's not such a huge leap. The Ottomans greatly influenced the Moors, who in turn passed on to the Europeans. Without the Ottoman influence, it's possible to say the Moors would never got so advanced, and would never have (accidently) helped kick off the Renaissance. So they're central to the whole history of early-modern European development. And their invasions of Europe, right up to Vienna, helped spur European military development, which in turn, gave them a massive advantage over the people the Europeans met in the New World.
Too many hypothetical elements. The Moors might have advanced anyway, even without Ottoman influences. As for European military development, I will not applaud that. Colonialism was Europe's worst mistake.

And they say they are bicontinental.

I believe in bisexuality but this bicontinental thing is stupid. They got some european influence but that doesnt make them european. Canada is 1 billion times more european than Turkey...

Europe is a geographic designation. European is not. It is cultural.

Since when? European is just a word that means "of or relating to Europe." It can refer to European culture or European geography or anything else European.

This is 21st century. Ceuta isnt a colony but part of spanish nation, as it is few km away from mainland spain....

It's a territory. That is different than a colony or being within national boundaries. Perhaps you should look such things up.

http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/SPAIN-W1.gif

Not on this map of Spain.

Here's a map from the UK that does not include it as a region -
http://www.map-of-spain.co.uk/

CIA factbook which you frequently use as a source
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html
17 autonomous communities (comunidades autonomas, singular - comunidad autonoma)and 2 autonomous cities* (ciudades autonomas, singular - ciudad autonoma); Andalucia, Aragon, Asturias, Baleares (Balearic Islands), Ceuta*, Canarias (Canary Islands), Cantabria, Castilla-La Mancha, Castilla y Leon, Cataluna, Comunidad Valenciana, Extremadura, Galicia, La Rioja, Madrid, Melilla*, Murcia, Navarra, Pais Vasco (Basque Country)
note: the autonomous cities of Ceuta and Melilla plus three small islands of Islas Chafarinas, Penon de Alhucemas, and Penon de Velez de la Gomera, administered directly by the Spanish central government, are all located along the coast of Morocco and are collectively referred to as Places of Sovereignty (Plazas de Soberania)

It considers them places of Sovereignty which is different than EVERY OTHER part of Spain.

Ha. Ad hominems again. "I don't have an answer for that argument so I will deem you to be some form of 'unqualified'". Ridiculous and a logical fallacy, all in one.

European is a geographic designation. It's not something up for vote.Europe isn't just a geographic definition. It has many defintions, the problem being that none of these definitions argee with each other. Belarus, whilst geographically in Europe could be considered to not be culturally or politcally in Europe. It is far closer to Russian culture and politics.

Ahh, just remembered something. Europa, the goddess that Europe derives its name, is Phoenician, and Phoenicia was situated in modern day Lebanon and Syria.

Ahh, a texan commenting who is european or not. :D

Ad hominem. Address the argument. We assume you cannot and thus you have to resort to claims about the poster.

Ahh, a texan commenting who is european or not. :D
Actually, I believe I said it doesn’t matter if a country is “European” or what anybody thinks about it. The whole thing is arbitrary and personally I could care less about the “Europeaness” of Turks or any other group for that matter.

Ever heard of something called the "Orthodox Church?" The "Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire?" There is a reason I mentioned Constantinople. Most of Europe? It seems your knowledge of "most of Europe" stops somewhere east of Poland, and north of Slovenia.
The Orthodox Church and the Eastern Roman Empire were both changes in Greek culture, not the product of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople was the capitol of the empire before it was conquered by the Ottomans. The Byzantine Empire had a profound influence on Eastern Europe, all the way into Russia. The Ottoman Empire mostly into the Balkans.

If we consider Cyprus part of Europe, than we have to consider Turkey part of Europe as well.
If we do.

Europe is a geographic designation. European is not. It is cultural. You are in no position to make silly remarks as who is part of this culture undoubtedly. Because you, yourself are not part of this culture(s).

Ha. Amusing. More ad hominems. I guess when the argument can't be defeated, dismiss the poster as not being the right 'kind' of person, no?

I believe in bisexuality but this bicontinental thing is stupid. They got some european influence but that doesnt make them european. Canada is 1 billion times more european than Turkey...
Based on what?

My claim is that you have no idea what "European" is. You're not even from a country in the EU. How can you know what is European? What, only you get to use "you're from the US, so you know nothing"?

so EU = European? That's really silly.

Too many hypothetical elements. The Moors might have advanced anyway, even without Ottoman influences.

I don't know, the Moors learnt things that they wouldn't have learnt anywhere else. Don't ask me for specific examples, my minds a blank, but I know that it holds true, in general.

As for European military development, I will not applaud that.
Colonialism was Europe's worst mistake.
Maybe, maybe not; but it's had an undeniable effect on the development of Europe since it started.

Turkey is NOT in Europe, Geographically... it is in Asia, but for some strange reasons it is participating in the European Football CUP...:headbang:,

It's all about money, it's all about dum dum dama dum

Maybe, maybe not; but it's had an undeniable effect on the development of Europe since it started.
One of the more negative ones.

The Orthodox Church and the Eastern Roman Empire were both changes in Greek culture, not the product of the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople was the capitol of the empire before it was conquered by the Ottomans. The Byzantine Empire had a profound influence on Eastern Europe, all the way into Russia. The Ottoman Empire mostly into the Balkans.

You do know that Constantinople = Istanbul, right?

If we do.

As it's part of the European Union, it is indeed European. Or sufficiently European.

I got a question for My Nordland:

Do you consider the Roma and the Basque to be European?

One of the more negative ones.

It being negative or not is irrelevent.

You do know that Constantinople = Istanbul, right?
Yeah. It became the capitol of the Ottoman Empire. And?

As it's part of the European Union, it is indeed European. Or sufficiently European.
Personally, I believe it should only have been let in had it ceded its autonomy over to Greece, as it had originally desired.

undoubtedly again? :rolleyes: LOL. USA imperialism is in your blood I guess. Dictating to others who should be considered among them.

Uh-huh. Imperialism was invented by Europe (not really, but it's a silly thing to say about the US when one is from Europe). You're arguing for the impacts of imperialism, (the reason some European nations still have territories on other continents). We are participating in an intellectual discussion about geographic boundaries. European refers to being of Europe. It is a part of Europe geographicall and it has more in common with some European countries than Norway does by a far cry. You wish to make it black and white, but it's not. You cannot deny Turkey is a part of Europe any more than you can deny it's a part of Asia. That's not an opinion. That's a result of the very definition of Europe and Asia as it currently stands.

so EU = European? That's really silly.

The person who goes "you're from the US, you know nothing" calls "you're not from the EU, you know nothing" silly?

Guess what, Einstein. It's not only silly, it's stupid. And it's exactly what you did.

It's a territory. That is different than a colony or being within national boundaries. Perhaps you should look such things up.

http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/SPAIN-W1.gif

Not on this map of Spain.

Here's a map from the UK that does not include it as a region -
http://www.map-of-spain.co.uk/

CIA factbook which you frequently use as a source
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html
17 autonomous communities (comunidades autonomas, singular - comunidad autonoma)and 2 autonomous cities* (ciudades autonomas, singular - ciudad autonoma); Andalucia, Aragon, Asturias, Baleares (Balearic Islands), Ceuta*, Canarias (Canary Islands), Cantabria, Castilla-La Mancha, Castilla y Leon, Cataluna, Comunidad Valenciana, Extremadura, Galicia, La Rioja, Madrid, Melilla*, Murcia, Navarra, Pais Vasco (Basque Country)
note: the autonomous cities of Ceuta and Melilla plus three small islands of Islas Chafarinas, Penon de Alhucemas, and Penon de Velez de la Gomera, administered directly by the Spanish central government, are all located along the coast of Morocco and are collectively referred to as Places of Sovereignty (Plazas de Soberania)

It considers them places of Sovereignty which is different than EVERY OTHER part of Spain.


LMAO. So you are arguing Andalucia, Aragon, Asturias, Cataluna, etc...are not part of spanish nation? Get a grip!!!!!

,

It's all about money, it's all about dum dum dama dum

lol, it's nothing related to neither money nor geography. uefa is nothing to do with politics:) Israel and Kazakhstan is also playing in European championships. If we take basis of europeanship on uefa, then maybe we should also discuss Israel as being european.

Ahh, a texan commenting who is european or not. :D
Why do you feel that where he's from is relevant? Does it change the weight of his arguements in any way?

The person who goes "you're from the US, you know nothing" calls "you're not from the EU, you know nothing" silly?

Guess what, Einstein. It's not only silly, it's stupid. And it's exactly what you did.

I'm asking if Turkey is european. And I'm european whether Norway is in EU or not. You dont have to be a eu citizen to be european. As usual, you require extra explanations to get my posts...

Yeah. It became the capitol of the Ottoman Empire. And?

So, it ceased being European? It was European for two millennia, and than suddenly became what?

Personally, I believe it should only have been let in had it ceded its autonomy over to Greece, as it had originally desired.

Cyprus is nation. It's as silly to demand that it surrender its sovereignty to Greece, as it is to demand Malta do so to Britain, or The Netherlands to Spain, or, dare I say it, Poland to Germany.

I believe in bisexuality but this bicontinental thing is stupid. They got some european influence but that doesnt make them european. Canada is 1 billion times more european than Turkey...

Stupid, huh? So they aren't located on both continents.

European is not a homogenous culture in any fashion. You keep pretending it is. Turkey has more in common with some parts of Europe than Norway does. Stop trying to acting like only Western European culture exists or like even THAT is homogenous.

I'm asking if Turkey is european. And I'm european whether Norway is in EU or not. You dont have to be a eu citizen to be european. As usual, you require extra explanations to get my posts...
Maybe that's telling about the quality of your posts.

So, it ceased being European? It was European for two millennia, and than suddenly became what?
Undoubtedly more Turkish, and Asian in some ways. It isn't the Constantinople it was under the Byzantine Empire.

Cyprus is nation. It's as silly to demand that it surrender its sovereignty to Greece, as it is to demand Malta do so to Britain, or The Netherlands to Spain, or, dare I say it, Poland to Germany.
It formerly desired to. The whole thing was sidetracked due to a political dictatorship in Greece. Too bad it did not.

LMAO. So you are arguing Andalucia, Aragon, Asturias, Cataluna, etc...are not part of spanish nation? Get a grip!!!!!

No, I'm arguing that the parts of Spain that are in Africa are considered to be territories politically. They are regarded differently and for good reason. The part of Turkey that is in Europe is not. It is a very significant difference. Up until recently Canada was a territory of France. It was NOT a part of the national boundaries of France, however.

,

It's all about money, it's all about dum dum dama dum

yea maybe, but in israel's case im pretty sure it has to do with politics....do u know Israel plays in European cup!!

I'm asking if Turkey is european. And I'm european whether Norway is in EU or not. You dont have to be a eu citizen to be european. As usual, you require extra explanations to get my posts...

But you're not in the EU, so you know nothing. Just like you said "You're not in Europe, so you know nothing." If you get away with dismissing arguments by drawing an arbitrary line as to who is "qualified" to speak, then so can everyone else. So, as long you continue to claim that people from the US are "unqualified," you will remain "unqualified" as well.

So, be gone, little non-EU-ropean person. You know nothing.

Ad hominem. Address the argument. We assume you cannot and thus you have to resort to claims about the poster.

No, I just regard it as american imperialism about them telling who is european or not.

so EU = European? That's really silly.

You are not part of the European Union so you are not qualified to argue what should and should not be a part of the union. You have five minutes to the leave the thread.

How can you not see that's just as silly as discounting the points made by certain posters because of where they are from.

No, I just regard it as american imperialism about them telling who is european or not.

Kind of like it's Norwegian Imperialism telling Turkey where Turkey resides and what they are? We aren't discussing Norway so you have no say in who is or is not qualified to talk about the qualities of Turkey.

Actually, I believe I said it doesn’t matter if a country is “European” or what anybody thinks about it. The whole thing is arbitrary and personally I could care less about the “Europeaness” of Turks or any other group for that matter.

And I couldnt care less about the opinions of a non european saying european is an arbitrary term.

You do know that Constantinople = Istanbul, right?



As it's part of the European Union, it is indeed European. Or sufficiently European.

So by your "logic" Toronto is a native american city? :rolleyes:

And I couldnt care less about the opinions of a non european saying european is an arbitrary term.

I could care less about the opinions of the non-Turkish saying whether Turks are European or Asian.

We can do this all day.

No, I just regard it as american imperialism about them telling who is european or not.
Wow.

Anyway, answer my questions, do you consider the Roma and the Basque to be European, and why is Canada more European than Turkey?

I got a question for My Nordland:

Do you consider the Roma and the Basque to be European?

Basque is european I guess. Roma arent...

So by your "logic" Toronto is a native american city? :rolleyes:

It certainly has dramatic Native American influences. Which is what he has been arguing. Thank you for pointing out the strength of his logic. It proves you utterly wrong.

Undoubtedly more Turkish, and Asian in some ways. It isn't the Constantinople it was under the Byzantine Empire.

So, now you claim Contantinople/Istanbul not to be European? Just like, say, Greece stopped being European when they were under the Ottoman Empire? Like Spain did under the Moores?

Sorry, but I just can't take you seriously anymore, as you seem to be pulling purified arbitrariness out of your ass.

It formerly desired to. The whole thing was sidetracked due to a political dictatorship in Greece. Too bad it did not.

Formerly? That's half a century ago. And it would be as stupid to demand it become part of Greece as the other things I mentioned.

And I couldnt care less about the opinions of a non european saying european is an arbitrary term.
I'm European and I'm saying it is an arbitrary term.

Basque is european I guess. Roma arent...

You're not Basque. Who are you to say whether Basque are European or not. You're also not Roma.

Basque is european I guess. Roma arent...
Predictable. You’re problem isn’t with Turkey’s culture, it’s with its predominant skin color.

So by your "logic" Toronto is a native american city? :rolleyes:

Be gone, non-EU-ropean!

You're also not Roma.
Maybe he's Sinti. That would put his whole racialism campaign on ice for a while...:p

Uh-huh. Imperialism was invented by Europe (not really, but it's a silly thing to say about the US when one is from Europe). You're arguing for the impacts of imperialism, (the reason some European nations still have territories on other continents). We are participating in an intellectual discussion about geographic boundaries. European refers to being of Europe. It is a part of Europe geographicall and it has more in common with some European countries than Norway does by a far cry. You wish to make it black and white, but it's not. You cannot deny Turkey is a part of Europe any more than you can deny it's a part of Asia. That's not an opinion. That's a result of the very definition of Europe and Asia as it currently stands.

Ah yes...due to the imperialist history of Norway (!!!) I can not comment about US imperialism.
If European is being of europe then asian being of asia, then 97% of Turkey is asian. Then it's europeanness isnt enough to consider it european.

Predictable. You’re problem isn’t with Turkey’s culture, it’s with its predominant skin color.

You noticed that too? *gasp*

Meanwhile, this thread needs to end because according to NN the only people qualified to discuss a people are those people. Since we're talking about Turks, everyone who is not Turkish must leave the thread. We'll start with the northermost posters and work our way down. NN, get out.

Ah yes...due to the imperialist history of Norway (!!!) I can not comment about US imperialism.
If European is being of europe then asian being of asia, then 97% of Turkey is asian. Then it's europeanness isnt enough to consider it european.

You can't discuss Turkey because you are not Turkish. We must adhere to your strict ruling on who is qualified.

Also, according to you, you cannot discuss US Imperialism becuase you are not from the US. See where that silliness leads. Hard to have a discussion when you put more evidence on where a person lives or what color skin they have than on what they believe.

lol, it's nothing related to neither money nor geography. uefa is nothing to do with politics:) Israel and Kazakhstan is also playing in European championships. If we take basis of europeanship on uefa, then maybe we should also discuss Israel as being european.

It's about money. More people in UEFA, more viewers and hence more tv stations paying UEFA and hence more money....

You noticed that too? *gasp*

Meanwhile, this thread needs to end because according to NN the only people qualified to discuss a people are those people. Since we're talking about Turks, everyone who is not Turkish must leave the thread. We'll start with the northermost posters and work our way down. NN, get out.

Exactly. Ny Nordland is not Turkish. He may no longer speak of Turkey or its people.

No, I'm arguing that the parts of Spain that are in Africa are considered to be territories politically. They are regarded differently and for good reason. The part of Turkey that is in Europe is not. It is a very significant difference. Up until recently Canada was a territory of France. It was NOT a part of the national boundaries of France, however.

So you put French territory of Canada and Catalonia of Spain in the same categories? :rolleyes:

Turkey is neither Asian, nor European. It is Eurasian. I don't see why everyone thinks that Europe and Asia are two different contenants. It is one big contenant that has two distinct cultures. What defines a contentant from another is a speration by water or a land connection that is very small. Neither apply to Europe or Asia. It is one contanant!:headbang:

But I can't blame the "Asians" for wanting to have their own contenat. I wouldn't want to be on the same contenant as France either...

But you're not in the EU, so you know nothing. Just like you said "You're not in Europe, so you know nothing." If you get away with dismissing arguments by drawing an arbitrary line as to who is "qualified" to speak, then so can everyone else. So, as long you continue to claim that people from the US are "unqualified," you will remain "unqualified" as well.

So, be gone, little non-EU-ropean person. You know nothing.

You are being desperate and drawing imaginary parrallels. You dont have to be EU citizen to be european. And any european can discuss europeanness of Turkey.
Please dont spam with such mindless chatter.

You are not part of the European Union so you are not qualified to argue what should and should not be a part of the union. You have five minutes to the leave the thread.

How can you not see that's just as silly as discounting the points made by certain posters because of where they are from.

I can argue about the europeanness of Turkey. And EU is for european countries. Now get it? Besides our politicians keep trying to get us into EU. And we got open borders with EU countries so if Turkey becomes EU member, turks will be flooding here too..

No, I'm arguing that the parts of Spain that are in Africa are considered to be territories politically. They are regarded differently and for good reason. The part of Turkey that is in Europe is not. It is a very significant difference. Up until recently Canada was a territory of France. It was NOT a part of the national boundaries of France, however.

so are French Guinea and Greenland parts of the European Union or not???:cool:

I do beleive turkeys are native to the Americas, but I am by no means an expert on such matters...

You are being desperate and drawing imaginary parrallels. You dont have to be EU citizen to be european. And any european can discuss europeanness of Turkey.
Please dont spam with such mindless chatter.

You *really* don't like it when your own [lack of] logic is used against you. But whether you like it has little to do with anything.

You are being desperate and drawing imaginary parrallels. You dont have to be EU citizen to be european. And any european can discuss europeanness of Turkey.

But you are not Turkish, so may not discuss Turks.

Please dont spam with such mindless chatter.

Again, you may not speak because you are not in the EU, and you are not Turkish, meaning you cannot speak about Turkey, at all, either.

Turkey is neither Asian, nor European. It is Eurasian. I don't see why everyone thinks that Europe and Asia are two different contenants. It is one big contenant that has two distinct cultures. What defines a contentant from another is a speration by water or a land connection that is very small. Neither apply to Europe or Asia. It is one contanant!:headbang:

But I can't blame the "Asians" for wanting to have their own contenat. I wouldn't want to be on the same contenant as France either...


:confused:

ok from all the previous posts... this IS the weirdest it got today!!!:(

Regarded by all europeans as foreign. There were wide alliances when they were sieging Vienna.
German culture is different then Ireland. But difference between Ireland vs Turkey is much more than Ireland vs Germany.


but turkish and greek culture is probably really similar

I can argue about the europeanness of Turkey. And EU is for european countries.

You are not in the EU, so your opinion on what the EU is for is irrelevant and unqualified.

So, now you claim Contantinople/Istanbul not to be European? Just like, say, Greece stopped being European when they were under the Ottoman Empire? Like Spain did under the Moores?

Sorry, but I just can't take you seriously anymore, as you seem to be pulling purified arbitrariness out of your ass.



Formerly? That's half a century ago. And it would be as stupid to demand it become part of Greece as the other things I mentioned.

So any invaded city retains its former culture? That's really silly thing to say. You funny thing.
Some invasions dominate the original people and change original culture (istanbul, toronto, new york city)
Toronto might have some native american influences but it isnt native american just like NYC isnt dutch.
Some invasions just invade and dont change original culture. (cairo, balkans, etc, vietnam) While they might leave some influence there, they dont change the original culture. European invasion of vietnam doesnt make it european.

:confused:

ok from all the previous posts... this IS the weirdest it got today!!!:(
Maybe so, but I actually agree more with him then with most of the other posts made here.

You're not Basque. Who are you to say whether Basque are European or not. You're also not Roma.

A: This person is from your family.
B: No. You arent in my family anyways. It isnt up to you.
A: How can you say that, you arent this person.
B: But I can say who belongs to the family or not because I'm in the family.

Hope this simple example helps u understand....

Exactly. Ny Nordland is not Turkish. He may no longer speak of Turkey or its people.

I can speak about Turkey's europeanness. But I cant speak who is turkish or not. Like if kurds are turks, it's up to turks to decide.
You can not barge into a house and say I'm part of this family. Similarly turks cannot say they are european by themselves, they gotta be accepted by other europeans as well.
You 2 are either really slow or missing these points in your desperate attempts to draw parrallels.

i think turkey should join the EU out of pitty, i mean, the world is becoming blocks, unions, Leagues, Communities etc....

we have the European Union on the West of Turkey, geographically not in it, we have the Arab League on the SOuth of Turkey, Culturally not in it,
we have a Central Asian organizations on the east that again will not allow turkey in due to its location and culture, turkey is a regon by itself, and ofcourse in the north we have the caucasian states that will probably enter the EU before Turkey, except for Azerbaijan...

TURKEY IS LOST...:eek:

Regarded by all europeans as foreign. There were wide alliances when they were sieging Vienna.
German culture is different then Ireland. But difference between Ireland vs Turkey is much more than Ireland vs Germany.
I've got a question: Since you seem to put a lot of weight on the cultural differences between Turkey and western european countries in your argument that Turkey is not a part of europe but a part of asia...
Do you feel that the cultural differences between Portugal and Turkey are greater or smaller then the cultural differences between China and Turkey?

I've got a question: Since you seem to put a lot of weight on the cultural differences between Turkey and western european countries in your argument that Turkey is not a part of europe but a part of asia...
Do you feel that the cultural differences between Portugal and Turkey are greater or smaller then the cultural differences between China and Turkey?

China vs Turkey is greater of course. But Portugal vs Brazil is less then Portugal vs Turkey.

Similarly turks cannot say they are european by themselves, they gotta be accepted by other europeans as well.

For you I guess that means getting some sort of Michael Jackson-esque operation, eh?

I've got a question: Since you seem to put a lot of weight on the cultural differences between Turkey and western european countries in your argument that Turkey is not a part of europe but a part of asia...
Do you feel that the cultural differences between Portugal and Turkey are greater or smaller then the cultural differences between China and Turkey?

so what your saying is that Canada-Brazil-USA-Australia etc.. can all join the EU due to their CUltural closeness!! :confused:

For you I guess that means getting some sort of Michael Jackson-esque operation, eh?

Not really. You funny thing.

A: This person is from your family.
B: No. You arent in my family anyways. It isnt up to you.
A: How can you say that, you arent this person.
B: But I can say who belongs to the family or not because I'm in the family.

Hope this simple example helps u understand....

Ha. You are debating that they cannot be in the EU. Let's not pretend you're not. Otherwise, you could care less. You are neither part of the EU or Turkey. So it's none of your business. The family you're talking about is the EU.

so what your saying is that Canada-Brazil-USA-Australia etc.. can all join the EU due to their CUltural closeness!! :confused:
No.

My point is that if you're going to look at the cultural differences to try to decide which continent the country belongs in, it won't do you much good if you compare with the countries that are farthest away from it.

I don't believe that "different culture" should be the determining factor in this debate.

And, as I've stated before, I'm a supporter of the Transcontinental viewpoint.

So any invaded city retains its former culture? That's really silly thing to say. You funny thing.
Some invasions dominate the original people and change original culture (istanbul, toronto, new york city)
Toronto might have some native american influences but it isnt native american just like NYC isnt dutch.
Some invasions just invade and dont change original culture. (cairo, balkans, etc, vietnam) While they might leave some influence there, they dont change the original culture. European invasion of vietnam doesnt make it european.
Interestingly, to this day, the most powerful families in NYC are of Dutch decent. Every ruler of a city leaves its impact permanently.

Additionally, what culture are you using as "European"? Yes, Turkey may be very different from Norway, England, Germany, etc. However, it is very similar to Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Albania. You seem to think that Western Europes culture is the culture of all of Europe. Under that idea, Turkey isn't Asian at all because its culture is radically different from China and Japan.

Turkish influence is hardly non-existant in modern European countries. Same as German influence is hardly gone from France or Poland.

Ha. You are debating that they cannot be in the EU. Let's not pretend you're not. Otherwise, you could care less. You are neither part of the EU or Turkey. So it's none of your business. The family you're talking about is the EU.

As the topic states and the 1st post demonstrates, I'm debating whether Turkey is European or not. You are sinking even lower. Is that why you start with "ha"'s to your posts? As in lauging at yourself?

Interestingly, to this day, the most powerful families in NYC are of Dutch decent. Every ruler of a city leaves its impact permanently.

Additionally, what culture are you using as "European"? Yes, Turkey may be very different from Norway, England, Germany, etc. However, it is very similar to Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Albania. You seem to think that Western Europes culture is the culture of all of Europe. Under that idea, Turkey isn't Asian at all because its culture is radically different from China and Japan.

Turkish influence is hardly non-existant in modern European countries. Same as German influence is hardly gone from France or Poland.

Afghanistan is also very different from Japan, but that doesnt make it european.
Of course, Turkey is much smilar to Europe then Afghanistan is but still, they are not european. I think Turkey is a mid eastern country with some european influence.

Nope

Cyrpus is not geographically in Europe, yet is a member of the EU. According to the official criteria, Turkey (and Russia) are eligible for membership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_membership_criteria

It's a borderline case, I guess. It was influenced a lot by the ancient greeks, just like the rest of Europe, and it was part of the Roman empire. If I had to pick I'd say Turkey leans more towards Europe than it does towards the Middle-East/Asia.

so what your saying is that Canada-Brazil-USA-Australia etc.. can all join the EU due to their CUltural closeness!! :confused:

I have actually argued that it would be more appropriate for Canada and Brazil to join the EU than Turkey.

This does have much more to do with the cultural traditions involved in the legal systems and instruments of power than anything else. NN is wrong to say that Turkey is Asian, it is not, it is predominantly middle eastern culturewise.

Huntington in "The Clash of Civilizations" calls Turkey Islamic:
All major scholars recognize the existence of a distinct Islamic civilization. Originating in the Arabian peninsula in the seventh century AD., Islam rapidly spread across North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula and also eastwards into central Asia, the Subcontinent and Southeast Asia. As a result, many distinct cultures or subcivilizations exist within Islam, including Arab, Turkic, Persian and Malay

Whereas the same author recognises Western Civilization as having three major components: Europe, North America and Latin America.

If this is the case (and there is good evidence for it - read the book, any good library will have it) then it doesa make more sense to include Brazil and Canada in the EU than it does to include Turkey.

Cyrpus is not geographically in Europe, yet is a member of the EU.

Yeah, but the legitimate govt. of Cyprus is Greek. If they had it their way, they'd be part of Greece.

Yeah, but the legitimate govt. of Cyprus is Greek. If they had it their way, they'd be part of Greece.

That wouldn't change their geographic position, though. Only their political affiliation.

Cyrpus is not geographically in Europe, yet is a member of the EU. According to the official criteria, Turkey (and Russia) are eligible for membership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_membership_criteria
Kazakhstan for EU membership!

I'd just say that from all the Middle East countries, Turkey is the most European.
EDIT: ... after Israel.

That wouldn't change their geographic position, though. Only their political affiliation.

They fulfill enough requirements. They're culturally European, and close enough to Europe. Whereas I don't think Turkey fulfills enough requirements. Geographically, mostly in Asia. Population, mostly in Asia. Culture, Middle Eastern. IMO, end of story.

I'd just say that from all the Middle East countries, Turkey is the most European.
EDIT: ... after Israel.

Yes. And did you know that after Greece, Australia is the most Greek country in the world? True story.

Yes. And did you know that after Greece, Australia is the most Greek country in the world? True story.
I thought that was Albania.

Personally I'd say no. Even if it is the most european middle-eastern country, Turkey still is middle east, Asia.
I feel closer links towards Russia and some other caucasian country than towards Turkey... after all, even if I'm not christian, I think that the christian religion is a huge part of the european identity, even of the non-christian europeans.

They fulfill enough requirements. They're culturally European, and close enough to Europe. Whereas I don't think Turkey fulfills enough requirements. Geographically, mostly in Asia. Population, mostly in Asia. Culture, Middle Eastern. IMO, end of story.

Geographically, Cyprus is in no part European.
Population in Cyprus is part Greek and part Turkish.
Culture in Cyprus is part Greek and part Turkish.

Your point?

I thought that was Albania.

>_> I got my info from Neu Leonstein.

Stupid Leonstone! He lied to me through soccer!

Geographically, Cyprus is in no part European.
Population in Cyprus is part Greek and part Turkish.
Culture in Cyprus is part Greek and part Turkish.

Your point?

Geographically, not European. Population and culture are part Turkish, but that's illegitimate.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be in the EU either.

hahahaha....turkey is as much european as america is...!

I find Ny Nordland's racist xenophobia quite hilarious. His posts show that he's just pulling all of his "information" out of his ass... Yet, there's nothing hidden in there.

Now, my friends, remember that the Byzantine empire had a huge population (the largest in Europe at its height, and still among the largest even at its fall). The Balkans and Asia Minor were populated with mostly people of Greek descent.

That taken into account, also know that many of these people inter-married with Turks and Arabs. The people of Turkey are a mix of Greeks, Turks, and Arabs (among others, including Kurds). Calling the people of Turkey separate from the rest of European peoples is ridiculous, since many of them are of European descent. The people of Turkey fit their geographical location quite well, you could say.

And of course, denying the impact Turkey had on Europe during the 15th and 16th centuries is, well... Stupid. The Turkish armies were the first to wear uniforms in battle, and they were also the first to use formation tactics (later evolved into the famous "line battles" of Napoleonic Europe). And, armed with the finest muskets in the world (before rifling, the turks used extra-long stocks and barrels, made with hardwood and steel), some of the more ingenious 16th century Turkish soldiers became the first snipers, firing their muskets at enemy troops from vantage points, usually hidden behind brush or trees.

Aside from the military, there's also the cultural. Massive, closed-roof markets were a Turkish idea (we know them as malls today). They've also given us Turkish Baths, a unique blend of architectural styles from many cultures (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Arabian). Don't even get me started with the food...!


I always take pleasure in presenting facts to those who don't have any idea of what they're talking about.

Geographically, not European. Population and culture are part Turkish, but that's illegitimate.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be in the EU either.

How is that not legitimate? The Turkish population of Cyprus were co-founders of the Republic of Cyprus.

If it were up to you, I guess the EU would be restricted to Swabia only.

>_> I got my info from Neu Leonstein.

Stupid Leonstone! He lied to me through soccer!
Maybe he meant the country with more Greeks outside Greece.

How is that not legitimate? The Turkish population of Cyprus were co-founders of the Republic of Cyprus.

If it were up to you, I guess the EU would be restricted to Swabia only.

First, who founded it doesn't matter anymore. It's well divided now; Greeks mostly in the South, Turks in the North.

Second, why Swabia?

I find Ny Nordland's racist xenophobia quite hilarious. His posts show that he's just pulling all of his "information" out of his ass... Yet, there's nothing hidden in there.

Now, my friends, remember that the Byzantine empire had a huge population (the largest in Europe at its height, and still among the largest even at its fall). The Balkans and Asia Minor were populated with mostly people of Greek descent.

That taken into account, also know that many of these people inter-married with Turks and Arabs. The people of Turkey are a mix of Greeks, Turks, and Arabs (among others, including Kurds). Calling the people of Turkey separate from the rest of European peoples is ridiculous, since many of them are of European descent. The people of Turkey fit their geographical location quite well, you could say.

And of course, denying the impact Turkey had on Europe during the 15th and 16th centuries is, well... Stupid. The Turkish armies were the first to wear uniforms in battle, and they were also the first to use formation tactics (later evolved into the famous "line battles" of Napoleonic Europe). And, armed with the finest muskets in the world (before rifling, the turks used extra-long stocks and barrels, made with hardwood and steel), some of the more ingenious 16th century Turkish soldiers became the first snipers, firing their muskets at enemy troops from vantage points, usually hidden behind brush or trees.

Aside from the military, there's also the cultural. Massive, closed-roof markets were a Turkish idea (we know them as malls today). They've also given us Turkish Baths, a unique blend of architectural styles from many cultures (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Arabian). Don't even get me started with the food...!


I always take pleasure in presenting facts to those who don't have any idea of what they're talking about.

So turks are european because they mixed with some greeks? LMAO. Double LMAO if we consider it was you of accusing people of ignorance. But I guess your case is more of a lack of logic then lack of information.
So tell me, by your "logic", are mulatto's in Brazil european as well because they mixed with europeans? :rolleyes:

Now, my friends, remember that the Byzantine empire had a huge population (the largest in Europe at its height, and still among the largest even at its fall). The Balkans and Asia Minor were populated with mostly people of Greek descent.

That taken into account, also know that many of these people inter-married with Turks and Arabs. The people of Turkey are a mix of Greeks, Turks, and Arabs (among others, including Kurds). Calling the people of Turkey separate from the rest of European peoples is ridiculous, since many of them are of European descent. The people of Turkey fit their geographical location quite well, you could say.

And of course, denying the impact Turkey had on Europe during the 15th and 16th centuries is, well... Stupid. The Turkish armies were the first to wear uniforms in battle, and they were also the first to use formation tactics (later evolved into the famous "line battles" of Napoleonic Europe). And, armed with the finest muskets in the world (before rifling, the turks used extra-long stocks and barrels, made with hardwood and steel), some of the more ingenious 16th century Turkish soldiers became the first snipers, firing their muskets at enemy troops from vantage points, usually hidden behind brush or trees.

Aside from the military, there's also the cultural. Massive, closed-roof markets were a Turkish idea (we know them as malls today). They've also given us Turkish Baths, a unique blend of architectural styles from many cultures (Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Arabian). Don't even get me started with the food...!


I always take pleasure in presenting facts to those who don't have any idea of what they're talking about.

All very true, and also highly irrelevant to the central issues. Europe has adopted aspects of behaviour from many different cultures but this does not in any way imply a compatability between the cultures.

Turkey is still essentially a Sharia nation. I know that Ataturk did all that was in the power of any one man to drag Turkey into the Western Civilization, but he failed. Turkish life is still dominated by Islam and Islamic codes. This makes it impractical for them to adopt EU rules and legal systems.

There is no value judgement being made here, just a recognition of an essential difference in the culture of Turkey to the culture of the EU.

This is definably an interesting debate.

I'm going there in a couple of weeks with one of my history teachers, who has been there before. He says that the Turks can't even decide if they are Asian-Islamic or Western-secular. But apparently, there is a large and growing fundamentalist movement there that’s trying to turn the country into something like Iran, an Islamic republic.

As far as the EU goes, don’t expect Turkey to get in without a huge fight from Greece. If you think the Greco-Turk rivalry ended in 1923, you thought very wrong. They still hate each other.

Geographically part of Turkey is in Europe, so in that respect it is European, but the majority is in Asia, and as such it is Asian as well.

Turkey is a culturely diverse country and is european enough to be in the top 10 countries for entry in the European Union based on human rights anyway. It's also a secular country so that fact that the country is islamic does not way so heavily in daily life as it might in such a country more orthodox.

Overall it's a nice mix I say, and the architecture is very beautifully islamic and western at the same time in Instanbul anway.

so EU = European? That's really silly.

Aren't you the one arguing that Turkey shouldn't join the EU because it isn't European?

But, wait, if you laugh at "EU = European" then what do you care if Turkey joins?

Aren't you the one arguing that Turkey shouldn't join the EU because it isn't European?

But, wait, if you laugh at "EU = European" then what do you care if Turkey joins?

Turkish immigrants, we got open borders with EU members, our politicians constantly trying to get us into EU (rejected in referendum 2 times already). Ring a bell?

hahahaha....turkey is as much european as america is...!
Since when did parts of America lie in europe then?

Turkish immigrants, we got open borders with EU members, our politicians constantly trying to get us into EU (rejected in referendum 2 times already). Ring a bell?

And?

My problem with Turkey joining is that the legal and institutional systems in turkey are not compatible with those of the EU. Yours appears to be based on the melanin level, in which case you should have more of a problem with Cyprus.

Turkish immigrants, we got open borders with EU members, our politicians constantly trying to get us into EU (rejected in referendum 2 times already). Ring a bell?

You haven't argued that. You've been arguing: Turkey isn't European, hence shouldn't be in the EU.

Then you go on and say "EU = European? Ha ha ha!" as if the EU isn't European either.

At which point I have to ask, why do you even care?

You haven't argued that. You've been arguing: Turkey isn't European, hence shouldn't be in the EU.

Then you go on and say "EU = European? Ha ha ha!" as if the EU isn't European either.

At which point I have to ask, why do you even care?

EU =/= European. There are other europeans who arent in EU, like iceland, switzerland, monaco, etc....But you gotta be european to enter EU.
And I explained why I care about its EU entry...

EU =/= European. There are other europeans who arent in EU, like iceland, switzerland, monaco, etc....But you gotta be european to enter EU.
And I explained why I care about its EU entry...

You just said it again! The EU isn't European, but you have to be European to be a part of it? wtf?

Norway won't be flooded with Turkish workers for a number of reasons:
1) It is only a part of the schengen treaty. This means open borders, for travelling, but since Norway isn't a part of the EU, they do not have to afford the same rights to EU citizens as Denmark and Sweden do. Therefore, although people aren't checked at entry, they're still limited in their options to work and settle down.
2) Getting a house in Norway, or anywhere else in Scandinavia, for anyone who isn't Scandinavian isn't easy. You need a number, which I am sure you are familiar with, and you have to be a citizen to get that number. I do believe that Sweden, Denmark and Finland have had to adopt adminstrative numbers in order to please the EU. Without a house, you're going to have a hard time finding work.
3) Only the smarter people will go to Norway, because it is far easier to go to any other number of countries.

Turkey suck penis, they deny the Armenian Genocide, such a barbaric culture shouldn't be called human, let alone European.

No Turkey isnt european. The EU hasnt yet assimilated it and brainwashed it's citizens.
Pretty soon this will happen though.

You just said it again! The EU isn't European, but you have to be European to be a part of it? wtf?

Norway won't be flooded with Turkish workers for a number of reasons:
1) It is only a part of the schengen treaty. This means open borders, for travelling, but since Norway isn't a part of the EU, they do not have to afford the same rights to EU citizens as Denmark and Sweden do. Therefore, although people aren't checked at entry, they're still limited in their options to work and settle down.
2) Getting a house in Norway, or anywhere else in Scandinavia, for anyone who isn't Scandinavian isn't easy. You need a number, which I am sure you are familiar with, and you have to be a citizen to get that number. I do believe that Sweden, Denmark and Finland have had to adopt adminstrative numbers in order to please the EU. Without a house, you're going to have a hard time finding work.
3) Only the smarter people will go to Norway, because it is far easier to go to any other number of countries.

Think EU as a smaller set of Europe. All eu citizens are european but not all europans are eu citizen.
There are many illegal east europeans in UK who came as a tourist under open borders but stayed there to work, although it isnt allowed. So open borders mean open borders for immigrants.

Think EU as a smaller set of Europe. All eu citizens are european but not all europans are eu citizen.
There are many illegal east europeans in UK who came as a tourist under open borders but stayed there to work, although it isnt allowed. So open borders mean open borders for immigrants.

so, the EU = European. What is in the EU is European. Therefore, Cyprus is European and since Cyprus is not in Europe, it doesn't matter that Turkey isn't in Europe.

Now think, the EU never started out as the European Union, it started out as the European Coal and Steel Community, then become the EEC and the EC at some point. Why wouldn't it be able to change its name to something more inclusive?

I don't really care about borders anyway, but Norway doesn't have the same problem as Britain does, and Poland's inclusion into the Union didn't flood the markets with Polish workers.

First, who founded it doesn't matter anymore. It's well divided now; Greeks mostly in the South, Turks in the North.

Second, why Swabia?

Deducted that from you new name...

Considering that Berlin is effectively the city with the second largest Turkish population worldwide, should we kick Germany out of the EU as well? And Great Britain for it's large population of Indians and Pakistani?

Culturally: Yes. They have thousands of years of contact with Europe and have helped define the Continent. They are a republic in the true European sense of the word, and place the same value on freedom as many other European country.

Geographically: I have heard (fairly logical) arguments that Anatolia should be considered part of continental Europe. The Anatolian plate is seperating from Asia and colliding into the European landmass in a similar way to how the Iberian, Italian, Balkan, and Scandanavian plates did, the difference is that Anatolia is behind in the process by a small amount of geological time.

Ethnically: Not entirely. But who cares? The Europe that I care about is not racist, and it is not credist either.

Turkey...denies the Armenian Genocide, such a barbaric culture shouldn't be called human, let alone European.

That's a good point. Not only was it genocide, but its surprising more people did not die in that event. The Turks provide the Armenians with wretched living conditions.

Culturally: Yes. They have thousands of years of contact with Europe and have helped define the Continent. They are a republic in the true European sense of the word, and place the same value on freedom as many other European country.

Yes, but, as I said before, this may change soon, if the fundamentalist movement gets its way.

One question that this debate poses: what does it mean to European? Do you have to be ethnically French, German, Italian, etc, etc., Is it religious? I don't know, myself.

Turkey is not geographically Europe, yet it inhabits a unique place in the world, being a crossroads between Europe and Asia. Consequently it makes it difficult for them in trying to keep an number of unique cultures happy.
The country probably really belongs with the numerous countries in the northern Middle East such as Turkmenistan for its religion and many cultures.
I have friends from Turkey, and love them dearly.

Yes, but, as I said before, this may change soon, if the fundamentalist movement gets its way.

One question that this debate poses: what does it mean to European? Do you have to be ethnically French, German, Italian, etc, etc., Is it religious? I don't know, myself.

I don't think the fundamentalist movement will be long-lived. Turks are already beginning to become disillusioned with it, I think it will turn out to be another decade-long political fad like the New-Rightism of the '80s.

And I know your second questions is sorta rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway. I think it means holding dear a set of values (such as liberalism, secularism and peacefulness) that stem from a number of shared historical experiences, the Roman Empire, Feudalism, the Renaissance / Enlightenment, the World Wars and the Cold War, amongst other things.

And I know your second questions is sorta rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway. I think it means holding dear a set of values (such as liberalism, secularism and peacefulness) that stem from a number of shared historical experiences, the Roman Empire, Feudalism, the Renaissance / Enlightenment, the World Wars and the Cold War, amongst other things.
Am I the only one that finds it a little strange that the value of peacefulness should be attributed to these experiences, when four out of five are based on pure martial force.

However, I think in principle that you are right. Being European is clearly related to holding certain values. What exactly these values are, is a matter for debate, but I would include autonomy of the individual, meritocratic principles and seperation of church and state as being contemporary expressions of these values.

I like the point Boris Johnson made for Turkey's membership that the Roman Empire continued there for hundreds of years after it ended in Western Europe.

Am I the only one that finds it a little strange that the value of peacefulness should be attributed to these experiences, when four out of five are based on pure martial force.

However, I think in principle that you are right. Being European is clearly related to holding certain values. What exactly these values are, is a matter for debate, but I would include autonomy of the individual, meritocratic principles and seperation of church and state as being contemporary expressions of these values.Well there's nothing quite like war to make a civilian population realise the value of peace.

Well there's nothing quite like war to make a civilian population realise the value of peace.
so they were right... war IS peace. ;)

How about Greek, Hungarian, Romanian, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and all the other cultures that exist in South Eastern Europe? Are they not European as Turkic influence is evident in their cultures.
Is it evident really? Besides turkish coffee and bath. Maybe you can enligten us.
There's your answer. Why would turkish bath and cofee NOT be seen as Turkic influence?

I am reminded of Monty Python: Life of Brian where they say "apart from roads, sanitation, public education, order, walls on the cities and freedom of religion, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Don't go excluding the evidence you don't want to see.

Well there's nothing quite like war to make a civilian population realise the value of peace.

Not only that, but the world wars were pretty horrible. And two in a row. I think people get the idea eventually.

Of course, people who haven't quite been submitted to the gruesome effects directly tend to do something similar, such as what happened in Yugoslavia.

There's your answer. Why would turkish bath and cofee NOT be seen as Turkic influence?

I am reminded of Monty Python: Life of Brian where they say "apart from roads, sanitation, public education, order, walls on the cities and freedom of religion, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Don't go excluding the evidence you don't want to see.

Don't forget the aqueducts! or the wine!

Don't forget the aqueducts! or the wine!
technically, I spoke of the aqueducts when I mentionned sanitation.

That being said, I know I missed a few as I was going from memory.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/atlas/h-ottomans.htm

Look @ the borders in 1683. Turkey is a mixture of both: European and Asian. Why is that hard to accept? :)

http://i-cias.com/e.o/atlas/h-ottomans.htm

Look @ the borders in 1683. Turkey is a mixture of both: European and Asian. Why is that hard to accept? :)
I honestly don't know. I'm with you all the way :)

Not culturally or geographically.


SO how comes they wabt to be in the EU. Why are the in Eurovision?

Not culturally or geographically.


SO how comes they wabt to be in the EU. Why are the in Eurovision?
Why is any country in the Eurovision? Why?? :(

What does European mean then?

Well, unfortunately (and many are who essentially hold this opinion wont accept it, and claim it is for different reasons), it basically means white in this case. The main part of objection to Turkey is simple rascism, as most of them will not accept Turkey, even if it makes the neccessary changes it needs to get membership.

Personally, I feel that any country on the borders of Europe that meets the requirements, and wants to join, should be allowed to. Even if it meant eventually expanding into the Middle East, Africa, or Asia. Couldnt this be seen as a way to gradually spread liberal democratic values around the world without bombing the shit out of people?

Well, unfortunately (and many are who essentially hold this opinion wont accept it, and claim it is for different reasons), it basically means white in this case. The main part of objection to Turkey is simple rascism, as most of them will not accept Turkey, even if it makes the neccessary changes it needs to get membership.

Personally, I feel that any country on the borders of Europe that meets the requirements, and wants to join, should be allowed to. Even if it meant eventually expanding into the Middle East, Africa, or Asia. Couldnt this be seen as a way to gradually spread liberal democratic values around the world without bombing the shit out of people?
Firstly I disagree with your insinuation that racism is behind the objections, I think you'll find it has more to do with Turkey's illegal occupation of cyprus territory and their human rights record. And Secondly invitinging countries into the EU does not require liberal democratic ideollogy to be in place.

Well, unfortunately (and many are who essentially hold this opinion wont accept it, and claim it is for different reasons), it basically means white in this case. The main part of objection to Turkey is simple rascism, as most of them will not accept Turkey, even if it makes the neccessary changes it needs to get membership.

Personally, I feel that any country on the borders of Europe that meets the requirements, and wants to join, should be allowed to. Even if it meant eventually expanding into the Middle East, Africa, or Asia. Couldnt this be seen as a way to gradually spread liberal democratic values around the world without bombing the shit out of people?

Speak for yourself in this case.

European is far from defined by ethnicity. It is a cultural, not genetic heritage that matters. There are plenty of present day Europeans who are ethnically of negro, asian, or arabian stock for example. What matters is their attitudes to law and the power structures in their country. What matters is how they view their relationship with society, what are the social groups that determine their identity?

If you identify yourself primarily as being a member of some secular but not familiar or professional group, for example - being a nerd or a football fan, then you have a very good chance of being European in your attitudes. If you define yourself by the religious sect/church you belong to, then you are much more likely to be Islamic or modern American in your attitudes. If what comes to mind first is your extended family or employer then youy are most probably Asian or African in your attitudes.

This break down does not claim that any particular social construction of personal identity is better than any other. It simply recognises differences. If you think that is racist, then you have a serious problem. What it does do is mark the boundaries between compatible and incompatible cultures. The cause of so many cultural misunderstandings is in how the participants in the discussion view themselves and their assumption that the other will construct their identity in the same way.

Now Turks identify themselves by their tribe, their extended family, and secondarily by their religious sect. This creates certain power structures in their society, with tribal leaders and mullahs having positions of power that simply have no equivalents in European culture. So Turkey enters the EU. Who changes their society? The Turks are not going to suddenly drop thousands of years of tradition and heritage, and the Europeans are not going to simply accept power being atributed to these traditional figures.

The society structures are simply incompatible. If Turks wish, individually, to adopt a European perspective, then with time their society will evolve into a European style society, an Turkey would then be rightfully described as European. Until that happens though, no amount of cosmetic changes will change the basic power structures in the society.