NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure which smiley I should use. :rolleyes: or :mp5: ?


No way of sunbathing: Norwegian female volleyball players that came to Turkey for a tournament faced some unpleasant events when they tried to sunbathe in Ankara, reported Hürriyet. One of them, Ingrid Helene Sando, noted that at first they thought they could sunbathe in Ulus' Gençlik Park since it is green and sunny, but added that they were surrounded by a huge crowd when they laid down in their bikinis.

Disturbed by the gawking crowd, they left the park. Another player, Hilda Elvebakk, said that a crowd followed them wherever they went, adding that she was surprised that some people even took photos with their mobile phones. Wanting to bask in the sun, the team at last decided to move away from the city center and to go to Gölbaşı, which has more green space. However, it didn't work out there, either, because a military helicopter on training hovered over where the Norwegian players were sunbathing, inconveniencing them. Finally, the hotel where the players were staying allowed the players to bask in the sun on the terrace.


Oh and if you got a hard time believing, the source is turkish itself...

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=44689

"Semi-naked woman attract attention in Muslim country."

In other news: The Pope is discovered to be a Catholic, and bears do defaecate in woods.

Doesn't say much for local girls ... :p
That's right, they are all covered up!

I'm not sure which smiley I should use. :rolleyes: or :mp5: ?
:confused: would've been better than either.

"Semi-naked woman attract attention in Muslim country."

In other news: The Pope is discovered to be a Catholic, and bears do defaecate in woods.

I wouldnt give a damn if Turkey wasnt an EU membership candidate. As long as they are outside EU, they can get soaked with their own "muslimness". Of course, the other thing is that our foreign ministry needs to inform our citizens going to Muslim countries better.

I wouldnt give a damn if Turkey wasnt an EU membership candidate. As long as they are outside EU, they can get soaked with their own "muslimness". Of course, the other thing is that our foreign ministry needs to inform our citizens going to Muslim countries better.
The Government needs to warn people that if they sunbathe half naked they might get attention?

Sounds more like the education system needs to install some common sense.

"Semi-naked woman attract attention in Muslim country."

That should probably read "Semi-naked team of written-about women attract attention in any country."

But, that would come in the way of the OP's xenophobically retarded attempt to insinuate something about Turkey, and not about heterosexual men...

That should probably read "Semi-naked team of written-about women attract attention in any country."

But, that would come in the way of the OP's xenophobically retarded attempt to insinuate something about Turkey, and not about heterosexual men...
Indeed. In fact, it's interesting that the OP notes that they 'stare and take pictures', not that they attempt to lynch the woman, which is what he would prefer had happened.

Perhaps these oppressed Muslims aren't quite as oppressed as he'd like. I mean, they actually behaved like...men. :eek:

That should probably read "Semi-naked team of written-about women attract attention in any country."

But, that would come in the way of the OP's xenophobically retarded attempt to insinuate something about Turkey, and not about heterosexual men...

You sound moronic as usual. Any country? Women sitting in parks in bikinis attract crowds that take pictures of them with phones? Does that happen in an European country? Would any european military helicopter change its course to check out girls? I am not sure whether it's your lack of intelligence that hinders your ability to interpret the data or your ignorancy that makes you to reach a conclusion which suggests any heterosexual men would react this way.

You sound moronic as usual. Any country? Women sitting in parks in bikinis attract crowds that take pictures of them with phones? Does that happen in an European country? Would any european military helicopter change its course to check out girls? I am not sure whether it's your lack of intelligence that hinders your ability to interpret the data or your ignorancy that makes you to reach a conclusion which suggests any heterosexual men would react this way.
People look at women in bikini's in European parks. Would they take pictures? Yes, but the difference is that they would do it discreetly and then post it on some porn site. Would a military helecopter change course? I don't know, but some men here in the UK were recently sent to prison for filming a woman changing with the Council CCTV cameras, which I think is comparible.

Keep trying, my young racist friend.

Indeed. In fact, it's interesting that the OP notes that they 'stare and take pictures', not that they attempt to lynch the woman, which is what he would prefer had happened.

I guess he'll just have to keep hoping for injury to his countrymen so that he may use it in a future allusion attempt. I can see it now "Norwegian woman assaulted in Turkey! Because that never happens elsewhere!"

Perhaps these oppressed Muslims aren't quite as oppressed as he'd like. I mean, they actually behaved like...men. :eek:

Silly you. The OP doesn't consider brown people to be human, so I guess we can't expect him to see them as men.

Indeed. In fact, it's interesting that the OP notes that they 'stare and take pictures', not that they attempt to lynch the woman, which is what he would prefer had happened.

Perhaps these oppressed Muslims aren't quite as oppressed as he'd like. I mean, they actually behaved like...men. :eek:

I would have preferred that? Dont reflect YOUR sick thoughts on me. Forming crowds and staring and taking pictures IS harrassing. It is your sick nature to assume this is what "men do".

Fass, you're a man, and I bet we would never find you ogling a team of young fit women sunbathing in their bikinis.

You sound moronic as usual. Any country? Women sitting in parks in bikinis attract crowds that take pictures of them with phones?

Groups of them certainly do, but I've seen men congragate around singular women.

Does that happen in an European country?

Oh, look, someone's never been to Cannes. Or outside their little cave...

Would any european military helicopter change its course to check out girls?

Let me guess, you haven't been in the army? Oh, the panty-raid stories I hear from guys in the service...

I am not sure whether it's your lack of intelligence that hinders your ability to interpret the data or your ignorancy that makes you to reach a conclusion which suggests any heterosexual men would react this way.

I'm sorry, I guess I just lack that particlar type of idiocy that lets me be swayed by xenophobia and deranged happiness at things like these happening.

Fass, you're a man, and I bet we would never find you ogling a team of young fit women sunbathing in their bikinis.

Quite, I'd be rather busy ogling and taking pictures of the other young, fit men who'd no doubt be ogling the women.

I would have preferred that? Dont reflect YOUR sick thoughts on me. Forming crowds and staring and taking pictures IS harrassing. It is your sick nature to assume this is what "men do".

Do they not have 'building sites' in Norway...

Quite, I'd be rather busy ogling and taking pictures of the other young, fit men who'd no doubt be ogling the women.
No offense, but that sent pictures of that freaky chief of the firedepartment in Nile City...

Anyways, good for the turks! Though I guess they could've been a bit more subtle...

"Semi-naked woman attract attention in Muslim country."

In other news: The Pope is discovered to be a Catholic, and bears do defaecate in woods.

Unless I am mistaken Turkey is a secular country, however the predominant religion is Islam. If they had tried that in Saudi Arabia they would have been arrested and thrown in jail.

No offense, but that sent pictures of that freaky chief of the firedepartment in Nile City...

He had a pretty sweet deal going on with the firemen always being semi-naked, and having Pontus Gårdinger strutting his cute little ass. (http://www.svt.se/content/1/c6/25/64/18/gardin.asx)

Quite, I'd be rather busy ogling and taking pictures of the other young, fit men who'd no doubt be ogling the women.

I'm with you Fass.

Groups of them certainly do, but I've seen men congragate around singular women.


Due to massive number of immigrants, Sweden might be redefining its standarts about civilized behaviour. However, in Norway, no crowd would form around any sunbathing women and stare at them and follow them where they go, while taking pictures. Sure a couple guys would check them out or maybe sit near them or maybe try to flirt. But they would get the hint if the women go elsewhere. The "incident" in Turkey was harrasment since obviously girls were annoyed enough to go outside the city. You might have a S&M nature which tolerates such harrassment.That's your choice. Dont try to portray it as something natural.



Oh, look, someone's never been to Cannes. Or outside their little cave...



Let me guess, you haven't been in the army? Oh, the panty-raid stories I hear from guys in the service...


No helicopter on training would change its course to check out girls.



I'm sorry, I guess I just lack that particlar type of idiocy that lets me be swayed by xenophobia and deranged happiness at things like these happening.

Idiocy? So they "stared" at foreign women. I wonder how they would react if it was their women who were in bikinis. You cant possibly be that stupid to miss the connection between treatment of women in muslim countries and this story.

People look at women in bikini's in European parks. Would they take pictures? Yes, but the difference is that they would do it discreetly and then post it on some porn site. Would a military helecopter change course? I don't know, but some men here in the UK were recently sent to prison for filming a woman changing with the Council CCTV cameras, which I think is comparible.

Keep trying, my young racist friend.

You still fail to comprehend, dont you? The fact that they take their pictures so openly means they think such harrassment is ok.

You still fail to comprehend, dont you? The fact that they take their pictures so openly means they think such harrassment is ok.
Of course, Western society with all its pornography is so much better. :rolleyes:

You still fail to comprehend, dont you? The fact that they take their pictures so openly means they think such harrassment is ok.
Most men do. Oh, wait, you're trying to twist this to contrue it as an attack against Islam, no? Oh well. You fail.

Due to massive number of immigrants, Sweden might be redefining its standarts about civilized behaviour.

For those others reading the thread, I rest my case. Ny Nordland exposes his true self yet again.

No helicopter on training would change its course to check out girls.

Yup, you've never been in the army, or in Cannes, or, well, anywhere apparently.

Idiocy? So they "stared" at foreign women. I wonder how they would react if it was their women who were in bikinis.

Not even to Turkey. Ever heard of belly dancing? Really, your ignorance of the world is astounding, but unsurprising for a xenophobe.

By the by, if you should ever go to Turkey to, you know, get a clue, I suggest Alanya as a start. Bit touristy, but there are still tonnes of Turks around.

You cant possibly be that stupid to miss the connection between treatment of women in muslim countries and this story.

To see that tenuous connection is what requires the true stupidity. By the by, Turkey is secular, so you might want to pick another Muslim country as the subject for your silly little prejudice.

For those others reading the thread, I rest my case. Ny Nordland exposes his true self yet again.


I was waiting for the agenda... we all knew it was coming...

For those others reading the thread, I rest my case. Ny Nordland exposes his true self yet again.


Considering you think women should accept being harrassed when they are in bikinis, you showed your true self already. This "rape is ok" leaning (after all they deserve it, it's what men do (!!!!)) thinking and political correctness is an intresting combination though.


Yup, you've never been in the army, or in Cannes, or, well, anywhere apparently.


What happens in Cannes? Dont those girls pose willingly?



Not even to Turkey. Ever heard of belly dancing? Really, your ignorance of the world is astounding, but unsurprising for a xenophobe.

By the by, if you should ever go to Turkey to, you know, get a clue, I suggest Alanya as a start. Bit touristy, but there are still tonnes of Turks around.

To see that tenuous connection is what requires the true stupidity. By the by, Turkey is secular, so you might want to pick another Muslim country as the subject for your silly little prejudice.

So the existance of belly dancers makes Turkey what? Progressive? There are belly dancers in Saudi Arabia too.
You are the ignorant one here. And the fact that you dare to call others ignorant in your condition is what is truely astonising. It might be simply your Political Correctness glasses or your intelligence issues or you are just some generation of immigrant yourself, which might explain your primitive thinking with regards to women.


OMCT is particularly troubled with the widespread problem of domestic violence in Turkey, with as many as 90% of women being subjected to violence at the hands of their husbands and boyfriends.

http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf

Considering you think women should accept being harrassed when they are in bikinis, you showed your true self already. This "rape is ok" leaning (after all they deserve it, it's what men do (!!!!)) thinking and political correctness is an intresting combination though.


How do I flame thee? Let me count the ways...

I'm not even getting involved in this one, except to say that if that statistic about 90% of turkish women being abused by husbands and boyfriends is true, that's fucking rat.

I'm not even getting involved in this one, except to say that if that statistic about 90% of turkish women being abused by husbands and boyfriends is true, that's fucking rat.

It's a Human Rights Organisation called World Organisation Against Torture. I'm sure noone would "dispute" this source...

Ohh! Ohh! Fight between Sweden and Norway!
Awesome!

DANSKJÄVLAR!!

Ohh! Ohh! Fight between Sweden and Norway!
Awesome!

DANSKJÄVLAR!!

Naah, its a fight against titanium skull xenophobe versus rest of the world. So far, the world is winning. Xenophobe won't stop whining though.

Considering you think women should accept being harrassed when they are in bikinis, you showed your true self already. This "rape is ok" leaning (after all they deserve it, it's what men do (!!!!)) thinking and political correctness is an intresting combination though.



What happens in Cannes? Dont those girls pose willingly?




So the existance of belly dancers makes Turkey what? Progressive? There are belly dancers in Saudi Arabia too.
You are the ignorant one here. And the fact that you dare to call others ignorant in your condition is what is truely astonising. It might be simply your Political Correctness glasses or your intelligence issues or you are just some generation of immigrant yourself, which might explain your primitive thinking with regards to women.

http://www.omct.org/pdf/vaw/publications/2003/eng_2003_09_turkey.pdf

Now I and probably many others find that offensive. I'm a 3rd generation Indian living in Britain. I don't regard women as second class citizens or anything and lots of other people I know don't. Maybe you should start thinking that people from other nations are PEOPLE just like you the only difference is the skin colour and maybe a different culture to you. Anyway yes Turkey is progressing and so are many Middle Eastern countries. Example Afghanistan now allows women to compete as professional athletes. Many people in these countries are realising women aren't second class citizens.

Now I and probably many others find that offensive. I'm a 3rd generation Indian living in Britain. I don't regard women as second class citizens or anything and lots of other people I know don't. Maybe you should start thinking that people from other nations are PEOPLE just like you the only difference is the skin colour and maybe a different culture to you. Anyway yes Turkey is progressing and so are many Middle Eastern countries. Example Afghanistan now allows women to compete as professional athletes. Many people in these countries are realising women aren't second class citizens.

Try not to be too disturbed... this is just Ny. He has a thousand reasons why - despite the obvious appearance - he is, in fact, NOT a racist...

Now I and probably many others find that offensive. I'm a 3rd generation Indian living in Britain. I don't regard women as second class citizens or anything and lots of other people I know don't. Maybe you should start thinking that people from other nations are PEOPLE just like you the only difference is the skin colour and maybe a different culture to you. Anyway yes Turkey is progressing and so are many Middle Eastern countries. Example Afghanistan now allows women to compete as professional athletes. Many people in these countries are realising women aren't second class citizens.

There's no reasoning with people like Ny Nordland, you must realize.

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm

Try not to be too disturbed... this is just Ny. He has a thousand reasons why - despite the obvious appearance - he is, in fact, NOT a racist...

:eek: Wow he has a unique way of showing it

O noes!!!

Golly gee Batman, they're following us!





:rolleyes:

:eek: Wow he has a unique way of showing it

Well, sure... he walks like a racist, and he quacks like a racist... but, I think the argument goes something like "It's not me, it's all you people that don't hate foreigners that are discriminating against ME..."

Or something.

I wouldnt give a damn if Turkey wasnt an EU membership candidate. As long as they are outside EU, they can get soaked with their own "muslimness". Of course, the other thing is that our foreign ministry needs to inform our citizens going to Muslim countries better.

Ha. Now you have to keep muslims out of the EU. I thought you were just trying to protect Norwegians. I guess it's really about keeping the eeeviiiil Muslims as far from you as possible. It's insane that anyone would read xenophobia into that. Absolutely insane to see xenophobia in a person that seems to want to do everything he can to establish a place where only white people are allowed.

Considering you think women should accept being harrassed when they are in bikinis, you showed your true self already. This "rape is ok" leaning (after all they deserve it, it's what men do (!!!!)) thinking and political correctness is an intresting combination though.

Idiot... maybe on the beaches of Norway, where women go out in nothing skimpier than three layers of wooley coats, over thermal underwear (I imagine, sorry if that remark was a bit cheeky) this might be something that you have not yet experienced.

Good looking women + pretty much nothing on = quite a nice sight for heterosexual males (and homosexual women, I suppose).

Especially in a country like Turkey, where women are usually quite covered up (that's a bit sweeping, sorry).

What happens in Cannes? Dont those girls pose willingly?

You need to check out the Med. There are pervy men with cameras everywhere taking videos or pictures of women all over the place. Try searching for "topless" as a video search, I imagine that there will be 7 million results, most of them from mediterranian beaches.

So the existance of belly dancers makes Turkey what? Progressive? There are belly dancers in Saudi Arabia too.
You are the ignorant one here. And the fact that you dare to call others ignorant in your condition is what is truely astonising.

What's truly astonishing is the fact that you think you're so much better than everyone else because you're "pure" or whatever. You disgust me to the core. Sorry, Ar(n)yan Nordland, but you are the ignorant one.

It might be simply your Political Correctness glasses or your intelligence issues or you are just some generation of immigrant yourself, which might explain your primitive thinking with regards to women.

That's a disgusting statement. Utterly disgusting. Immigrants are just as good a bunch of people as the people who have lived in a country for however many years, and there are plenty of "pure" people who treat women horribly.

Well, sure... he walks like a racist, and he quacks like a racist... but, I think the argument goes something like "It's not me, it's all you people that don't hate foreigners that are discriminating against ME..."

Or something.

When I highlight treatment of women in a Eu candidate, all you can come up with is to chant "racist". Pathetic.

You still fail to comprehend, dont you? The fact that they take their pictures so openly means they think such harrassment is ok.
Or because they don't have enough experience with women in little clothing to do it subtly.
I've been obviously oggled by men in North America, not photographed to my knowledge, but then I don't go around in my bikini except to places where a lot of people are in bikinis.

You sound moronic as usual. Any country? Women sitting in parks in bikinis attract crowds that take pictures of them with phones? Does that happen in an European country? Would any european military helicopter change its course to check out girls? I am not sure whether it's your lack of intelligence that hinders your ability to interpret the data or your ignorancy that makes you to reach a conclusion which suggests any heterosexual men would react this way.

Someone's never been to South Beach. Sure, people are more subtle in other places, but I'd bet dollars to donuts I could walk around for a day shirtless and find women ogling me in the same way.

Newsflash: People tend to ogle people they're attracted to. The less likely they are to see people they find really attractive the more apparent the ogling is.

On 29 Palms military base, women were so scarce that if you brought a woman on base everyone use to leave their rooms and line up on the terraces and in the stairwells. I gues the USA is a Muslim country. Or guys that haven't seen supremely attractive women, particularly scantily clad women, for a long time like to look.

Comparing this to rape shows a dramatic misunderstanding of what a violent act rape is or it shows a poster's bias to make everything that can even be in the most ludicrous sense tied to Muslims into an evil act.

Gee, I sure hope no one unnecessarily notices your entire set of arguments focuses on demonizing or creating inferiority in essentially every group that is not White Norwegians.

Now I and probably many others find that offensive. I'm a 3rd generation Indian living in Britain. I don't regard women as second class citizens or anything and lots of other people I know don't. Maybe you should start thinking that people from other nations are PEOPLE just like you the only difference is the skin colour and maybe a different culture to you. Anyway yes Turkey is progressing and so are many Middle Eastern countries. Example Afghanistan now allows women to compete as professional athletes. Many people in these countries are realising women aren't second class citizens.

Did you read "might" there? I'm not suggesting all immigrants got a primitive thinking but many have.

Did you read "might" there? I'm not suggesting all immigrants got a primitive thinking but many have.
Cretin... why would they have more "primitive thinking" than people who have been in a country for a long time?

Nordland - Wir folgen dir!

When I highlight treatment of women in a Eu candidate, all you can come up with is to chant "racist". Pathetic.

No - when you equate it to a religious 'culture', and start making comments about people not agreeing with you because they are immigrants, and start talking about the moral 'purity' of your fatherland being compromised by immigrants...

You original argument, a few weeks back - was that you just wanted your fatherland to remain static.

It was close to racism, but not explicit.

Since that point, you have started a number of threads about how blacks are less intelligent than whites...

And now, we have a thread about barring Turkey from the EU. Effectively, you are saying you want to keep this 'corrupting influence' out of - not just Norway (your ORIGINAL claim), but all of Europe.

Judge a man not on his TALK. Judge him on how he WALKS.

You perpetuate hate based on cosmetic difference, and you discriminate based on colour and creed.

I have several words I use to describe people who fit that categorisation... but one of the most work-safe is "racist".

Question: Do you socialise with 'immigrants' or do you see them and stay clear? If the answer is the second choice then where do you get the opinion that many are of primitive thinking?

So Ny Nordland... How's your cultural superiority complex doing? Feel selfrightious enough to go burn some homes at night, mailbomb a few shops, or rape some of those vile brown girls?

There's only one language you lot understand.
http://www.aks-ooe.at/pics/smash_nazis.jpg

When I highlight treatment of women in a Eu candidate, all you can come up with is to chant "racist". Pathetic.

Let's review -
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in my country. They can be in other countries."
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in European countries. They can stay in their own countries"
"I'm not racist, I just don't want their countries in our Union."

Now let's incorporate a couple of other points you try to make:
"White people are going extinct. It's because we allow immigration"
(Let's ignore that the two issues are COMPLETELY unrelated and the first doesn't exist.
"Dark skinned people are genetically inferior."
"Other cultures are inferior."

Hmmm... Why do you people keep jumping to conclusions about our friend who is clearly one who believe in equality and fair treatment for all?

Did you read "might" there? I'm not suggesting all immigrants got a primitive thinking but many have.

We treat people as individuals. Otherwise we might jump to the same conclusion about Norwegians.

Did you read "might" there? I'm not suggesting all immigrants got a primitive thinking but many have.
My parents are immigrants. Granted, they immigrated from the US to Canada. Although my dad's stance on homosexuals is rather primitive. Are you going to stop using immigrant as an insult? People immigrate to all sorts of countries from all sorts of countries. My bf's parents immigrated here from England, one of my friend's dad's immigrated from Greece and his mom from Jamaica... neither of them "got a primitive thinking" a good friend of mine immigrated form India, another from China...

When I think about it, very few of my friends aren't first or second generation Canadian or even lacking Canadian citizenship entirely.

So Ny Nordland... How's your cultural superiority complex doing? Feel selfrightious enough to go burn some homes at night, mailbomb a few shops, or rape some of those vile brown girls?
I think you'll find he'll be sniping disgustingly impure immigrants so that they don't rape any virtuous Norwegian angels tonight, followed up by patrolling the borders with a flamethrower and killing anyone who steps even an inch into might Norwegian land, which is the best land in the world.

Let's review -
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in my country. They can be in other countries."
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in European countries. They can stay in their own countries"
"I'm not racist, I just don't want their countries in our Union."

Now let's incorporate a couple of other points you try to make:
"White people are going extinct. It's because we allow immigration"
(Let's ignore that the two issues are COMPLETELY unrelated and the first doesn't exist.
"Dark skinned people are genetically inferior."
"Other cultures are inferior."

Hmmm... Why do you people keep jumping to conclusions about our friend who is clearly one who believe in equality and fair treatment for all?
You forgot:
"I'm not racist, I just don't want them oggling our women."

Or because they don't have enough experience with women in little clothing to do it subtly.
I've been obviously oggled by men in North America, not photographed to my knowledge, but then I don't go around in my bikini except to places where a lot of people are in bikinis.

I think this is a second-hand source, and thus cannot be trusted.

To be believed, we'd really need some photographic evidence of this so-called 'Dakini in a bikini' situation....

Let's review -
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in my country. They can be in other countries."
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in European countries. They can stay in their own countries"
"I'm not racist, I just don't want their countries in our Union."

Now let's incorporate a couple of other points you try to make:
"White people are going extinct. It's because we allow immigration"
(Let's ignore that the two issues are COMPLETELY unrelated and the first doesn't exist.
"Dark skinned people are genetically inferior."
"Other cultures are inferior."

Hmmm... Why do you people keep jumping to conclusions about our friend who is clearly one who believe in equality and fair treatment for all?
Its not racist to say Turkey doesnt belong in the EU. Their economy is weak, their culture doesnt mesh with the rest of Europe and oh yeah, they ARENT IN EUROPE. They border Iraq for christ's sakes, they are in the middle east. It has nothing to do with the fact they are darker, they just wouldnt fit.

They also border Bulgaria, a European country. Turkey considers itself to be more European than Middle Eastern. Basicall Turkey is the crossing point between Europe and Asia

I think this is a second-hand source, and thus cannot be trusted.

To be believed, we'd really need some photographic evidence of this so-called 'Dakini in a bikini' situation....
I don't have any pics of myself in a bikini. I'm going camping later this month and will be heading to a beech during said time, if I get any pics of myself in such attire, I will post them.

I think you'll find he'll be sniping disgustingly impure immigrants so that they don't rape any virtuous Norwegian angels tonight, followed up by patrolling the borders with a flamethrower and killing anyone who steps even an inch into might Norwegian land, which is the best land in the world.I forsee great things for AntiFa of Norway in the very near future, thanks to one braindead nazi on NSG.

Too bad their site is down for maintenance right now. Still, there's always AntiFa Sweden (http://www.antifa.se/) while you wait.

Its not racist to say Turkey doesnt belong in the EU. Their economy is weak, their culture doesnt mesh with the rest of Europe and oh yeah, they ARENT IN EUROPE. They border Iraq for christ's sakes, they are in the middle east. It has nothing to do with the fact they are darker, they just wouldnt fit.
I'd prefer to have them in the EU, simply because it'd be great to have another angle on issues.

I forsee great things for AntiFa of Norway in the very near future, thanks to one braindead nazi on NSG.

Too bad their site is down for maintenance right now. Still, there's always AntiFa Sweden (http://www.antifa.se/) while you wait.
My Svensk isn't what it used to be...

I don't have any pics of myself in a bikini. I'm going camping later this month and will be heading to a beech during said time, if I get any pics of myself in such attire, I will post them.

In the interests of academia, obviously. It is vital to this debate about... whatever it was about... :)

My Svensk isn't what it used to be...Perhaps AntiFa Denmark (http://www.antifa.dk/) is easier for the Norwegians?

In the interests of academia, obviously. It is vital to this debate about... whatever it was about... :)
Oh, I'm sure.

Oh, I'm sure.

As am I. We here are the type who constantly quest for knowledge. In the intrests of learning, you see...

Oh, I'm sure.

Uh!! I am maligned. I'm a scientist... what possible interest could I find in attractive, scantily-clad ....

Let me get back to you... I think I found a flaw in my theory...

Uh!! I am maligned. I'm a scientist... what possible interest could I find in attractive, scantily-clad ....

Let me get back to you... I think I found a flaw in my theory...
I wasn't maligning you, I was just agreeing...

As am I. We here are the type who constantly quest for knowledge. In the intrests of learning, you see...
Well then, it's a shame that no such pictures exist. And I'm not just going to hop into a bikini in my room and pose... that would just be odd, so you'll have to wait.

Its not racist to say Turkey doesnt belong in the EU. Their economy is weak, their culture doesnt mesh with the rest of Europe and oh yeah, they ARENT IN EUROPE. They border Iraq for christ's sakes, they are in the middle east. It has nothing to do with the fact they are darker, they just wouldnt fit.

That's not what he said. He said it was because they are Muslim. Pay attention, young padawan.

As am I. We here are the type who constantly quest for knowledge. In the intrests of learning, you see...
I agree. I am always look for new ways to understand the world. I think this might help.

You forgot:
"I'm not racist, I just don't want them oggling our women."

Oh, and "looking = rape"

It does? Oh crap......

Well, sure... he walks like a racist, and he quacks like a racist... but, I think the argument goes something like "It's not me, it's all you people that don't hate foreigners that are discriminating against ME..."

Or something.
You spend too much time arguing with this idiot. Nobody should be able to summarize his convoluted crap like that -- or at all, really. ;)

You spend too much time arguing with this idiot. Nobody should be able to summarize his convoluted crap like that -- or at all, really. ;)

Know thy enemy?

It's actually disturbing that the more I try to pigeonhole him against his protestations... the more firmly he seems to try to push the envelope...

Did you read "might" there? I'm not suggesting all immigrants got a primitive thinking but many have.
Aha, the "qualified remark" ploy. See now, Londim, this is the first sign of him trying to claim he's not a racist. He does it in every thread. Watch. It's fun.

It's obvious the Turks are undersexed and never seen naked Norwegian female volleyball players sunbathing. Those lucky bastards were just maximizing this monumentious occasion.

I'd prefer to have them in the EU, simply because it'd be great to have another angle on issues.
China could also offer another angle. So could Pakistan. Or even Cuba. Wanna add them in? :rolleyes:

The problem as it is is that we have too many angles on EU issues. Not too few.

Know thy enemy?

It's actually disturbing that the more I try to pigeonhole him against his protestations... the more firmly he seems to try to push the envelope...What's there to know? Smash the scum & be done with it. It's not like you can actually get through to people like that.

That's not what he said. He said it was because they are Muslim. Pay attention, young padawan.
The fact they are muslim is in part why they shouldnt be allowed in. To me thats not a racist thing. Its a matter of having shared values, goals, and views of the world. It would be like letting a communist nation into NATO during the cold war. The fact is the EU is a christian, western organization and to have a middle eastern islamic state in it wouldnt work . Besides they have horrible human rights track records and dont treat their women by the high European standards.

If i went to a country where the religion was predominantly muslim and walked out in a bikini, i would expect, at the very least, to be stared at everywhere i went. Would i like it? maybe not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Most western women who go to muslim countries actually cover up a bit. They don't wear a burkha or anything, but they do wear a head covering, simply out of respect. We expect people to conform to our standards when they are in our country, why not do the same thing in theirs?

If you really want to walk around scantily clad in a muslim country, go ahead, but don't act shocked when people stare. In their culture women just don't do that, whether we agree or not isn't really the issue, we still can't plead ignorance when it happens.

To me, it's like complaining about being punished for breaking the law, simply because you disagree with the law. Just because you think something should be legal, doesn't change the fact that it might not be. Most people know which things are legal and which aren't. If you want to partake in something illegal, go ahead (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone), but deal with the consequences.

Know thy enemy?

It's actually disturbing that the more I try to pigeonhole him against his protestations... the more firmly he seems to try to push the envelope...
It's like running a rat down to its hole. The more you dig after him, the deeper into his true territory he goes.

Know thy enemy?

It's actually disturbing that the more I try to pigeonhole him against his protestations... the more firmly he seems to try to push the envelope...
Wouldn't it be thine enemy? :confused:

What's there to know? Smash the scum & be done with it. It's not like you can actually get through to people like that.

It isn't ONE racist I want to see broken... it is the concept.

It's like running a rat down to its hole. The more you dig after him, the deeper into his true territory he goes.

It just seems... funny. Protesting being anything other than a racist, and surround oneself with an increasing canon that suggests otherwise.

Stalin, caught with his hand in the cookie jar... or something. :)

Its not racist to say Turkey doesnt belong in the EU. Their economy is weak, their culture doesnt mesh with the rest of Europe and oh yeah, they ARENT IN EUROPE. They border Iraq for christ's sakes, they are in the middle east. It has nothing to do with the fact they are darker, they just wouldnt fit.
I would agree. Furthermore, if the EU citizens say no, that is it. No.

In addition, to those who would say it would bridge the gap between Christendom and Islam...erm no. It would potentially exacerbate an already intense problem we have breeding in Europe.

As for the OP, odd and weird, but men will be men. :rolleyes:

China could also offer another angle. So could Pakistan. Or even Cuba. Wanna add them in? :rolleyes:

The problem as it is is that we have too many angles on EU issues. Not too few.

One world, one people, one race, one thought. Conform, conform, conform.

Ever heard of a marketplace of ideas?

One world, one people, one race, one thought. Conform, conform, conform.

Ever heard of a marketplace of ideas?
The EU cannot function as it is because it's constituent members have too many diverging views and opinions on how things should be run. And they are deemed to not be too culturarly distant...which is true, but only in relative terms. We are not the US. We never meant to be.

The fact they are muslim is in part why they shouldnt be allowed in. To me thats not a racist thing. Its a matter of having shared values, goals, and views of the world. It would be like letting a communist nation into NATO during the cold war. The fact is the EU is a christian, western organization and to have a middle eastern islamic state in it wouldnt work . Besides they have horrible human rights track records and dont treat their women by the high European standards.

He said specifically, that he doesn't want any country to be Muslim that applies for the EU. That makes it the argument. You can try to talk about what you think all you want, but I was replying to what HE SAID. If you don't like it, talk to him.

And, wait, the EU is a Christian organization? Is there something about religious freedom in your charter? Can we all make stuff up or just you?

Wouldn't it be thine enemy? :confused:

Yes. Before a vowel, it should be 'thine'.

I'm a bad man. :)

(I appreciate it being noticed, actually... I actively maintain certain elements of archaic English, it's nice to know other people have some interest, and to be kept 'pure').

:)

Yes. Before a vowel, it should be 'thine'.

I'm a bad man. :)

(I appreciate it being noticed, actually... I actively maintain certain elements of archaic English, it's nice to know other people have some interest, and to be kept 'pure').

:)
I adore Old English, even though I can't speak it that well...yet. Wouldn't use thou/thy/thine in a conversation though, even though I'd like to.

You sound moronic as usual. Any country? Women sitting in parks in bikinis attract crowds that take pictures of them with phones? Does that happen in an European country? Would any european military helicopter change its course to check out girls? I am not sure whether it's your lack of intelligence that hinders your ability to interpret the data or your ignorancy that makes you to reach a conclusion which suggests any heterosexual men would react this way.

As a heterosexual man and a sterling example of the dual-natured chivalry/lechery mentality, I admit that I would have paid them some attention. I would probably have asked one to dinner as well.

The EU cannot function as it is because it's constituent members have too many diverging views and opinions on how things should be run. And they are deemed to not be too culturarly distant...which is true, but only in relative terms. We are not the US. We never meant to be.

Sounds like you need a leader then. I pretty much go out of my way to include varied ideas in a project I'm working on. I don't go, you, you're not the 'right kind of people', no soup for you.

And, wait, the EU is a Christian organization? Is there something about religious freedom in your charter? Can we all make stuff up or just you?
Name one country in the EU right now thats not mainly Christian.

The fact they are muslim is in part why they shouldnt be allowed in. To me thats not a racist thing. Its a matter of having shared values, goals, and views of the world. It would be like letting a communist nation into NATO during the cold war. The fact is the EU is a christian, western organization and to have a middle eastern islamic state in it wouldnt work . Besides they have horrible human rights track records and dont treat their women by the high European standards.
Far be it from me to tell the EU who to let in or why, but that is a xenophobic view. By "xenophobic," I mean a bias so extreme as to be unreasonable and, therefore, not a basis on which to make policy. For instance, you equate Turkey's human rights record with Islam. But you have no proof that Turkey's record is what it is because of a religion. You ignore that Turkey has a secular government which does not follow the rules of Islam, and you also ignore the horrible human rights records of supposedly Christian countries, such as various South American dicatorships since WW2, and atheist countries like China. You further ignore that Europe has its own history with human rights violations. WW2, anyone? Spanish Civil War, anyone? A couple of centuries of colonialism, perhaps? So on what do you base your connection between Islam and Turkey's human rights record? It appears to be nothing more than a prejudice against the idea of Turkey being called European, i.e. xenophobia.

I'm not saying I think Turkey should be a member. It's no business of mine, either way. I'm just saying self-awareness is a good thing.

Sounds like you need a leader then. I pretty much go out of my way to include varied ideas in a project I'm working on. I don't go, you, you're not the 'right kind of people', no soup for you.
What the EU needs is a working model, not a leader. Our Constitution thought of providing us with one...no thanks. Also, right now the EU cannot afford integrating members who diverge too greatly from its core principles (such as human rights) who are as large as Turkey. The costs would exceed the benefit. It is already on the verge of collapsing on its very foundations. It needs to slow down and focus inwards for now.

In addition, to those who would say it would bridge the gap between Christendom and Islam...erm no. It would potentially exacerbate an already intense problem we have breeding in Europe.


I couldnt agree more.

*snip*
The vast body of your arguments focus on the past. The past is gone. The EU has, currently, a set of principles which it deems paramount to its function, such as an extremely high respect for human rights and a commitment to equality between genders and so on. Turkey has yet to live up to the standards the EU demands of it. The EU can, and should, demand the best from its members. It can afford, in some cases, to integrate smaller countries and help them move up, but not larger ones.

And I should note that, though it is secular and for that I commend it, its current government has a strong pro-Islam bias and a mind to restore Islam in government. The military is the one who has great stakes in secularism.

It just seems... funny. Protesting being anything other than a racist, and surround oneself with an increasing canon that suggests otherwise.

Stalin, caught with his hand in the cookie jar... or something. :)
Oh, it's hilarious. That's why I keep showing up at these things. :D

Name one country in the EU right now thats not mainly Christian.
That doesn't make the EU a Christian organization.

That doesn't make the EU a Christian organization.
It doesn't, indeed. That is not the issue. The problem is that as it is Islam and Christendom (as well as atheism) are not mixing well in Europe. We need to focus on the problem at hand. Adding a large, mostly Muslim country right now would be a catastrophe, not a panacea. Practical concerns supersede ideological aims in this case.

You sound moronic as usual.

I see your debating skills are as magnificent as ever.

Any country? Women sitting in parks in bikinis attract crowds that take pictures of them with phones?

Well, maybe you're not used to that in Norway because your men do not possess testosterone? Just guessing.

It's really sad that you think any of this has to do with "muslimness." Sad because you will never admit to your bigotry, instead just throwing out sad insults whenever someone disagrees with your racist, ethnocentric paranoia. :)

Well, maybe you're not used to that in Norway because your men do not possess testosterone? Just guessing.
Bad guess. ;)

Far be it from me to tell the EU who to let in or why, but that is a xenophobic view. By "xenophobic," I mean a bias so extreme as to be unreasonable and, therefore, not a basis on which to make policy. For instance, you equate Turkey's human rights record with Islam. But you have no proof that Turkey's record is what it is because of a religion. You ignore that Turkey has a secular government which does not follow the rules of Islam, and you also ignore the horrible human rights records of supposedly Christian countries, such as various South American dicatorships since WW2, and atheist countries like China. You further ignore that Europe has its own history with human rights violations. WW2, anyone? Spanish Civil War, anyone? A couple of centuries of colonialism, perhaps? So on what do you base your connection between Islam and Turkey's human rights record? It appears to be nothing more than a prejudice against the idea of Turkey being called European, i.e. xenophobia.

I'm not saying I think Turkey should be a member. It's no business of mine, either way. I'm just saying self-awareness is a good thing.
I never said Islam leads to human rights violations, dont put words in my mouth. I am also not saying Europe has a perfect history, but it is just that, history. The Europe of today values human rights and freedoms, Im not convinced you can say that about Turkey.

Also its not a matter of xenophobia to be relucant to call Turkey Europe, its a matter of geography. Turkey is in Asia, just because it borders a European countrym, doesnt make it one. If you keep extending Europe's borders, where does it end? If Turkey is a member can Iraq apply for membership since it borders Turkey a supposed european nation. Or Iran? It would just be a slippery slope.

I never said Islam leads to human rights violations, dont put words in my mouth. I am also not saying Europe has a perfect history, but it is just that, history. The Europe today values human rights and freedoms, Im not convinced you can say that about Turkey.

Also its not a matter of xenophobia to be relucant to call Turkey Europe, its a matter of geography. Turkey is in Asia, just because it borders a European countrym, doesnt make it one. If you keep extending Europe's borders, where does it end? If Turkey is a member can Iraq apply for membership since it borders Turkey a supposed european nation. Or Iran? It would just be a slippery slope.
Well, they allowed Cyprus in, but then again Cyprus has a geopolitical importance to it and also it is closely related to Greece. I am not too sure they should have let it in, at least not unless it ceded sovereignty to Greece. Plus it's tiny and economically developed, so no issues arose.

Name one country in the EU right now thats not mainly Christian.

And that makes it a Christian organization? Ridiculous. It is a religiously free organization. To suggest it is a Christian organization is just blatantly wrong. Majority doesn't define things. In fact, most regard that as a form of tyranny.

The vast body of your arguments focus on the past. The past is gone. The EU has, currently, a set of principles which it deems paramount to its function, such as an extremely high respect for human rights and a commitment to equality between genders and so on. Turkey has yet to live up to the standards the EU demands of it. The EU can, and should, demand the best from its members. It can afford, in some cases, to integrate smaller countries and help them move up, but not larger ones.
He who ignores the past is doomed to repeat it, Mr. I Only Like to Bang Blonds So Keep All Those Nasty Brunettes Out of My Country.

Yeah, Europe is Utopia. Women in Italy still face unenlightened police, judges and juries in trying to get rapes prosecuted. France still cops an attitude like they own Algeria. Blood sports remain tout le rage in Spain. Extremist politicians and political groups with racist and nationalist agendas are trying like hell to turn the EU ship of state away from everything you laud them for. And you, EM, help them do it with your dismissive, elitist attitude about who is worth helping or not. What was the slogan of the old US liberals? You're part of the problem, not part of the solution. (paraphrase)

And that makes it a Christian organization? Ridiculous. It is a religiously free organization. To suggest it is a Christian organization is just blatantly wrong. Majority doesn't define things. In fact, most regard that as a form of tyranny.
It isn't religious for the time being. In the future though an altered Constitution might contain provisions relative to Europe's Christian past. Depends on how much some Member-States push for it.

I couldnt agree more.It could go either way, but they're definitly not ready to be admittted yet.Sounds like you need a leader then.If it does, you shouldn't listen to us.I pretty much go out of my way to include varied ideas in a project I'm working on. I don't go, you, you're not the 'right kind of people', no soup for you.The EU is currently expanding like a plague, and it's far from simple or cheap to do it - for anyone involved. Turkey isn't yet ready to be part of the EU, just like the EU isn't ready to expand any faster at the moment.

It will probably happen inside the next ten years, though 20 would probably be a more sensible timeframe. Of course, the best thing (if you ask me) would be to abandon the project altogether & simply focus on streamlining trade.

What the EU needs is a working model, not a leader. Our Constitution thought of providing us with one...no thanks. Also, right now the EU cannot afford integrating members who diverge too greatly from its core principles (such as human rights) who are as large as Turkey. The costs would exceed the benefit. It is already on the verge of collapsing on its very foundations. It needs to slow down and focus inwards for now.

No, the human rights issue is an issue. I don't deny it. I also agree with slowing down. However, I don't agree with the argument you made before. I think it was wise that you changed it.

He who ignores the past is doomed to repeat it, Mr. I Only Like to Bang Blonds So Keep All Those Nasty Brunettes Out of My Country.

Yeah, Europe is Utopia. Women in Italy still face unenlightened police, judges and juries in trying to get rapes prosecuted. France still cops an attitude like they own Algeria. Blood sports remain tout le rage in Spain. Extremist politicians and political groups with racist and nationalist agendas are trying like hell to turn the EU ship of state away from everything you laud them for. And you, EM, help them do it with your dismissive, elitist attitude about who is worth helping or not. What was the slogan of the old US liberals? You're part of the problem, not part of the solution. (paraphrase)
We are trying to change all of this as it is. Another huge country with an even poorer human rights record than some of the worst in the EU will not help. It is time for the EU to engage in realpolitik and do what is practical, not ideologically appealing. It is too silent in the world. Call it elitism, call it what you want. The EU chooses who it is to admit or not. If it says no, the matter is settled. We have no obligation to Turkey in any sense of the word. We, the citizens of the EU, will decide in the end what happens.

It could go either way, but they're definitly not ready to be admittted yet.If it does, you shouldn't listen to us.The EU is currently expanding like a plague, and it's far from simple or cheap to do it - for anyone involved. Turkey isn't yet ready to be part of the EU, just like the EU isn't ready to expand any faster at the moment.

It will probably happen inside the next ten years, though 20 would probably be a more sensible timeframe. Of course, the best thing (if you ask me) would be to abandon the project altogether & simply focus on streamlining trade.

I can accept these arguments. The point is not that that they are too different however. It's absurd. The problem is that the EU is expanding faster than it can handle and the specific ideas of Turkey. Saying that varied ideas are a problem is absurd. The problem is that there is no leader and that everyone has a different agenda.

No, the human rights issue is an issue. I don't deny it. I also agree with slowing down. However, I don't agree with the argument you made. I think it was wise that you changed it.
It's a matter of practicality. Turkey differs too much in areas that would void any possible arguments in favour of its entry. If it changes, we may welcome it. If not, the answer will be no.

It will probably happen inside the next ten years, though 20 would probably be a more sensible timeframe. Of course, the best thing (if you ask me) would be to abandon the project altogether & simply focus on streamlining trade.
I would disagree. We need to alter it, not abandon it. Switzerland is the model to go by.

We are trying to change all of this as it is. Another huge country with an even poorer human rights record than some of the worst in the EU will not help. It is time for the EU to engage in realpolitik and do what is practical, not ideologically appealing. It is too silent in the world. Call it elitism, call it what you want. The EU chooses who it is to admit or not. If it says no, the matter is settled. We have no obligation to Turkey in any sense of the word. We, the citizens of the EU, will decide in the end what happens.

So then we'll never see you weighing on American policy, I suppose. Good to know. Here I thought this was an international forum. I stand corrected.

*checks the description*

Oh, wait, it's you that's full of it. I'm right. We're have an ideological discussion where our views are just as valid as yours. Telling people that it's not up to them is simply weak tactics.

It's a matter of practicality. Turkey differs too much in areas that would void any possible arguments in favour of its entry. If it changes, we may welcome it. If not, the answer will be no.

BS. It's not a matter of differences. The EU should encourage differences. Many organizations are very successful by doing so. Now keeping it out because of specific dangerous ideologies/practices is a different story. But variation is never a problem.

So then we'll never see you weighing on American policy, I suppose. Good to know. Here I thought this was an international forum. I stand corrected.

*checks the description*

Oh, wait, it's you that's full of it. I'm right. We're have an ideological discussion where our views are just as valid as yours. Telling people that it's not up to them is simply weak tactics.
It's not that. The main thrust of the argument is that it is practically not wise to admit Turkey right now. I am just sick of hearing people screaming 'elitism' whenever the EU decides it needs certain standards. The EU, as it is, acts without regard to its citizenry's volition. We are fed up of this lack of transparency.

BS. It's not a matter of differences. The EU should encourage differences. Many organizations are very successful by doing so. Now keeping it out because of specific dangerous ideologies/practices is a different story. But variation is never a problem.
Human rights are not an area we are willing to accept differences in though. So essentially the differences I refer to are the latter. It is not in the EU's interest to encourage differences which would prevent it from functioning.

Just another reason for me to never visit Turkey.

It's not that. The main thrust of the argument is that it is practically not wise to admit Turkey right now. I am just sick of hearing people screaming 'elitism' whenever the EU decides it needs certain standards. The EU, as it is, acts without regard to its citizenry's volition. We are fed up of this lack of transparency.

They scream elitism when you make claims about how diverse ideas is the problem and how we need to not discuss it.

It's funny, every time someone points out the problem with the argument you have not stopped making, you pretend like you're making another argument. They are not all the same argument. If we talk about one of your arguments you can't just tell us you are talking about another argument, only to state the same flawed argument again.

Would any european military helicopter change its course to check out girls?
The article doesn't say anything about the helicopter changing course, nor that they were looking at the girls:
However, it didn't work out there, either, because a military helicopter on training hovered over where the Norwegian players were sunbathing, inconveniencing them.
It may just have been, well, on training...

Human rights are not an area we are willing to accept differences in though. So essentially the differences I refer to are the latter. It is not in the EU's interest to encourage differences which would prevent it from functioning.
Yes and I said as much. Not the same as being worried about too many differing views. Also not the same as arguing that Muslims shouldn't be let in.

Yes and I said as much. Not the same as being worried about too many differing views. Also not the same as arguing that Muslims shouldn't be let in.
We already allow Muslims in. That is not the issue. Saying, however, that allowing a large Muslim country in would somehow magically solve the problem Europe is facing is wishful thinking. It could result in the exact opposite. Therefore, I dismiss it as an argument to let Turkey in. Human rights, a commitment to secularism and economic advantage, as well as an acceptance by the EU's citizenry, are the criteria it must fullfil.

They scream elitism when you make claims about how diverse ideas is the problem and how we need to not discuss it.

It's funny, every time someone points out the problem with the argument you have not stopped making, you pretend like you're making another argument. They are not all the same argument. If we talk about one of your arguments you can't just tell us you are talking about another argument, only to state the same flawed argument again.
My argument is essentially one: that the EU should only do what is practically in its interest. Anything that would further weaken or divide it right now is definitely not qualified in that sense. Personally I believe that beyond any immediately planned expansion, it should all be halted before the EU reforms.

We already allow Muslims in. That is not the issue. Saying, however, that allowing a large Muslim country in would somehow magically solve the problem Europe is facing is wishful thinking. It could result in the exact opposite. Therefore, I dismiss it as an argument to let Turkey in. Human rights, a commitment to secularism and economic advantage, as well as an acceptance by the EU's citizenry, are the criteria it must fullfil.

However, it is a poor reason to keep them out. Variety is generally a benefit. If you want to argue against certain practices or ideas, do it. But you generalized and got caught. It was plainly false.

I never said Islam leads to human rights violations, dont put words in my mouth. I am also not saying Europe has a perfect history, but it is just that, history. The Europe of today values human rights and freedoms, Im not convinced you can say that about Turkey.

Also its not a matter of xenophobia to be relucant to call Turkey Europe, its a matter of geography. Turkey is in Asia, just because it borders a European countrym, doesnt make it one. If you keep extending Europe's borders, where does it end? If Turkey is a member can Iraq apply for membership since it borders Turkey a supposed european nation. Or Iran? It would just be a slippery slope.
If I misundertsood you, I beg your pardon, but:
Originally Posted by Soviestan
The fact they are muslim is in part why they shouldnt be allowed in. To me thats not a racist thing. Its a matter of having shared values, goals, and views of the world. It would be like letting a communist nation into NATO during the cold war. The fact is the EU is a christian, western organization and to have a middle eastern islamic state in it wouldnt work . Besides they have horrible human rights track records and dont treat their women by the high European standards.
Run all those highlighted phrases together, then note that, despite your use of the word "besides," you gave no other reason for Turkey to have a bad record, and I think you can see how the xenophobia conclusion could be reached.

Let's be honest. Turkey does have a a horrible record -- a disgraceful record -- but on the other hand, Turkey is strategically located and they are teetering between secularism and theocracy, and it would be beneficial to the secularist West if we could influence which way they tip. One good reason exclude them, and one good reason to include them. So, which of your best interests do you feel like sacrificing? In other words, which would you rather Turkey become -- an ally you don't like or an enemy that could potentially cause serious problems?

And here we have Ny Nordland arguing they should be excluded because some Turkish guys took photos of hot, half-naked women in public. You see how he just fails to match up to the issue.

My argument is essentially one: that the EU should only do what is practically in its interest. Anything that would further weaken or divide it right now is definitely not qualified in that sense.

Yes and the general problem is that under that reasonable sounding bill of goods you throw in a couple of riders that are just plain false.

Just another reason for me to never visit Turkey.
You aren't a girl, are you? I really don't think the men there would gawk at a guy dressed in T-shirt and jeans.

However, it is a poor reason to keep them out. Variety is generally a benefit. If you want to argue against certain practices or ideas, do it. But you generalized and got caught. It was plainly false.
I'm not saying it's a reason to keep them out. However, to disguise it as a benefit is an illusion.

I can accept these arguments. The point is not that that they are too different however. It's absurd. The problem is that the EU is expanding faster than it can handle and the specific ideas of Turkey. Saying that varied ideas are a problem is absurd. The problem is that there is no leader and that everyone has a different agenda.You're simplifying it to death, Jocabia.

Turkey is struggeling hard to catch up to what most Europeans consider an unacceptably poor standard, with regards to civil liberties, the justice system & education. They're doing everything they can, and there's no reason to believe they won't succede in modernising the country, but it will take time. To say that Turkey, in its current state, wouldn't utterly fuck up the EU project (assuming they could join tomorrow) & Turkey, is absurd.

We're much, much too different right now, to work together that closely. It's comparable to saying that Cuba could become the 51 US state tomorrow, with no significant & spectacular side effects, like civil unrest or war & bombing economies.

But unless something drastic happens, Turkey will be an EU member in the not-too-distant future. They do, however, need to accomplish quite a few things before the country's remotely compatible with the rest of the EU (and the EU needs to be ready & able to afford it). Ten years, presumably.. By then, neither will be truely ready for it & it'll cause a hell of a lot of problems & probably a lot of fascism (The EU countries are highly xenophobic in general), but it'll work out.. More or less.

It isn't religious for the time being. In the future though an altered Constitution might contain provisions relative to Europe's Christian past. Depends on how much some Member-States push for it.
Back into a tradition that did not and does not support equality for the sexes or equal rights for gays. Just mentioning, in light of your earlier-posted list of wonderful things about Europe.

Yes and the general problem is that under that reasonable sounding bill of goods you throw in a couple of riders that are just plain false.
Fair enough. I'll limit my argument to that notion then.

For now, I think it would be fine to offer Turkey a privileged relationship with the EU. Full membership though? Let's first see how it changes, and if it keeps up with what we demand of it.

I'm not saying it's a reason to keep them out. However, to disguise it as a benefit is an illusion.

Variety is a benefit. It's not an illusion. Argue against specific points. Don't make ridiculous generalizations and then complain because we give examples of how it's a false generalization. Play it how you like. You can say what is specifically your problem and have people accept it or generalize and get called out on it. Whatever floats your boat.

Back into a tradition that did not and does not support equality for the sexes or equal rights for gays. Just mentioning, in light of your earlier-posted list of wonderful things about Europe.
Just stating a possibility. That is all. An unlikely one though, since most Member-States are pushing for secularism.

We are trying to change all of this as it is. Another huge country with an even poorer human rights record than some of the worst in the EU will not help. It is time for the EU to engage in realpolitik and do what is practical, not ideologically appealing. It is too silent in the world. Call it elitism, call it what you want. The EU chooses who it is to admit or not. If it says no, the matter is settled. We have no obligation to Turkey in any sense of the word. We, the citizens of the EU, will decide in the end what happens.
That much at least is undeniably true.

You aren't a girl, are you? I really don't think the men there would gawk at a guy dressed in T-shirt and jeans.
No, that's Sweden that is :D

For now, I think it would be fine to offer Turkey a privileged relationship with the EU.That's already a reality.

You're simplifying it to death, Jocabia.

Turkey is struggeling hard to catch up to what most Europeans consider an unacceptably poor standard, with regards to civil liberties, the justice system & education. They're doing everything they can, and there's no reason to believe they won't succede in modernising the country, but it will take time. To say that Turkey, in its current state, wouldn't utterly fuck up the EU project (assuming they could join tomorrow) & Turkey, is absurd.

We're much, much too different right now, to work together that closely. It's comparable to saying that Cuba could become the 51 US state tomorrow, with no significant & spectacular side effects, like civil unrest or war & bombing economies.

But unless something drastic happens, Turkey will be an EU member in the not-too-distant future. They do, however, need to accomplish quite a few things before the country's remotely compatible with the rest of the EU (and the EU needs to be ready & able to afford it). Ten years, presumably.. By then, neither will be truely ready for it & it'll cause a hell of a lot of problems & probably a lot of fascism (The EU countries are highly xenophobic in general), but it'll work out.. More or less.

I would love if Cuba became the 51rst state, first of all.

Second, I'm not simplifying it to death. You guys are. Difference IS NOT THE PROBLEM. I can't make that clear enough.

Don't simplify it. Be clear, be specific. Don't try to use vague words like we don't like differences. I'm arguing against make it simple.

Say what's wrong with them. Being different is not an inherent problem. And 'too different' has no meaning. none.

You give examples of the problems they have and those are good examples. However, they could be as different as the like absent many of those problems. The problem is not being too different. If you don't want people to use examples to show the flaw in a generalized statement, here's a tip, don't make a generalized statement. State the ACTUAL problem, not some vague generic statement like "they're too different".

Variety is a benefit. It's not an illusion. Argue against specific points. Don't make ridiculous generalizations and then complain because we give examples of how it's a false generalization. Play it how you like. You can say what is specifically your problem and have people accept it or generalize and get called out on it. Whatever floats your boat.
Variety is definitely a benefit. However, look at the UK and France now, two countries with fundamentally different visions on what the EU should ultimately be. They nearly paralysed and destroyed the budget talks, had it not been for Chancellor Merkel. And even so, the deal achieved was barely satisfactory. To have another country in whose opinions differ too greatly from the rest of the EU, and whose population is so great, would be a nightmare. That is, unless the EU changes its modus operandi.

That's already a reality.

This much we agree on. I think Europe and anyone else with influence need to press hard to help tilt this country away from a theocracy. I don't care what theo the theocracy is, it's a dangerous thing.

Variety is definitely a benefit. However, look at the UK and France now, two countries with fundamentally different visions on what the EU should ultimately be. They nearly paralysed and destroyed the budget talks, had it not been for Chancellor Merkel. And even so, the deal achieved was barely satisfactory. To have another country in whose opinions differ too greatly from the rest of the EU, and whose population is so great, would be a nightmare. That is, unless the EU changes its modus operandi.

Looky, a need for a leader. I'm not talking about someone elected. I'm talking about someone leading. Most leaders are not appointed. They're born. EU does not have a leader. That is the problem.

Unless you can show how differing opinions are always a problem, I'm not buying that they are the primary problem here. The differences are only a problem as an effect of poor leadership. Stop talking about the symptom as a cause.

Looky, a need for a leader. I'm not talking about someone elected. I'm talking about someone leading. Most leaders are not appointed. They're born. EU does not have a leader. That is the problem.
I would be interested in seeing where our Constitutional debate leads us. I am hoping we can engineer something like your Constitution with regard to individual rights and judicial powers, but closer to Switzerland as regards the actual governmental structure of the Union. For now, all expansion should be slowed down to a bare minimum and all focus be put on this Constitution.

The Government needs to warn people that if they sunbathe half naked they might get attention?

Sounds more like the education system needs to install some common sense.

i like to refer to it as the new orleans syndrome. you know where the hurricane was reported coming to just about everyone over and over again but the government never held the hand of these people and told them to leave.

common sense is rapidly becoming extinct. wheres the peti (people for the ethical treatment of intelligence) when you need them

This much we agree on. I think Europe and anyone else with influence need to press hard to help tilt this country away from a theocracy. I don't care what theo the theocracy is, it's a dangerous thing.
Your nation could become one though. There is this programme on Monday on elite evangelists of the Ivy League, some of the nation's potential future leaders, whose vision of the US is a theocracy. Bush failed. However, another with similar view to politics might succeed.

You aren't a girl, are you? I really don't think the men there would gawk at a guy dressed in T-shirt and jeans.

Of course not. And I never wear jeans, only trousers. I was refering to my disgust for the overtly perverse nature of the Turks. You'd think they'd never seen a half naked woman before. Backwards country.

You give examples of the problems they have and those are good examples. However, they could be as different as the like absent many of those problems. The problem is not being too different. If you don't want people to use examples to show the flaw in a generalized statement, here's a tip, don't make a generalized statement. State the ACTUAL problem, not some vague generic statement like "they're too different".We use different, differently :p

I, for one, didn't mean to imply the population itself is a problem. The way their country currently functions IS a problem. Or rather, almost everything about Turkey is pt. incompatible with the EU. Justice system, laws, economy, internal instability.. Want me to be explicit? Ok. Their divorce laws, for example, would be in direct violation of EU law.

That, along with their pretty damn horrible economy, might easily create problems with xenophobia in EU, because by & large, the peoples of EU hate the traditional immigrant peoples, we hate what we think is their culture & their religion scares us to death (Not me personally, but non-xenophobes are a dying breed in EU). So on one hand, there's no cultural problem. In fact, having them join our fortress EU might ease some tension.
On the other hand though, the near-endless practical problems associated with them joining (especially the truely vast moneydrain), may well escalate problems.

We recently had a treaty to ratify - a constitution of sorts. It didn't die because it was shit (though it was). After extensive surveys, it turned out it died mainly as a protest against the EU daring to negotiate milestones with Turkey. Not that they'd been promised membership or anything else, they were simply being evaluated.

So this racism & Muslim bashing you feel some of the others are doing, is based in reality. I have no idea whether they themselves are closet racists or not, but the problems they've outlined aren't imagined.

We recently had a treaty to ratify - a constitution of sorts. It didn't die because it was shit (though it was). After extensive surveys, it turned out it died mainly as a protest against the EU daring to negotiate milestones with Turkey. Not that they'd been promised membership or anything else, they were simply being evaluated.

It has to do with the fact that there is no accountability. The EU does as it pleases, not as its citizens please. Its methods are far from transparent.

<snip>
So this racism & Muslim bashing you feel some of the others are doing, is based in reality. I have no idea whether they themselves are closet racists or not, but the problems they've outlined aren't imagined.
Actually, racists are taking existing problems and twisting them, redefining them, exploiting them, in general co-opting them to push their own racist agendas. One of the reasons international issues like relations with Turkey are so sticky is because you have racists, religious extremists, xenophobes, etc., hovering over them like vultures. While you argue the merits or demerits of Turkey, you must also be wary of feeding agendas that, at heart, are against the best interests of Europe in the long run.

Look at the US. Do you think the religiosity mania we're dealing with is a new thing? We've been struggling with these people since the revolution. When politicians and public figures cynically feed the agenda of the religious right to get a quick fix of support, they are poisoning the nation by giving credence and political legitimacy to those who oppose its core principles. It's tempting to do it once or twice, but it is an extremely dangerous game to play.

Likewise, I suggest, while there are may be good reasons to keep Turkey out of the EU at this time, if the leadership decide to exploit prejudice in order settle a difficult issue quickly, they will regret it later, in ways that have nothing to do with Turkey. So even if Turkey is kept out, the decision must not be something that could be used effectively by people like Ny Nordland.

*snip*
I agree that any reasons for excluding Turkey from the EU must be of practical nature. However, as I said, the reasons for striking down the proposed EU Constitution were not mere xenophobia/racism; EU citizens are seriously dissatisfied at the fact that an institution with so much power over them is not at their behest, when at the same time it claims to be "democratic". The fact that the EU didn't even bother, in most cases, to ask its citizens what they think of further expansion gave voters a perfect excuse to voice opposition to an already embattled piece of legislation.

Of course not. And I never wear jeans, only trousers. I was refering to my disgust for the overtly perverse nature of the Turks. You'd think they'd never seen a half naked woman before. Backwards country.
Turkey is a backward country but you seem to think a woman wearing jeans is somehow racy? Hm. :rolleyes:

I agree that any reasons for excluding Turkey from the EU must be of practical nature. However, as I said, the reasons for striking down the proposed EU Constitution were not mere xenophobia/racism; EU citizens are seriously dissatisfied at the fact that an institution with so much power over them is not at their behest, when at the same time it claims to be "democratic".
Yeah, well, when I figure how to fix that same problem in my country, I'll let you know.

The EU has problems. Well, it's a brand new thing, not even finished yet, and it will be up to you guys to get it on the right track. But if you don't want to end up living in Ny Nordland's fantasy world within 25 years, then you need to figure out how to keep "undesireables" out without creating any circumstance, however accidental, that he and his ilk could use to promote their politics. You have to take a stand and be very, very clear about it at all times.

For instance, you. Here you are, presenting good, rational arguments. But in other threads, you cavalierly support Ny's racism while claiming that you aren't really a racist, either, you're just interested in the quality of your dating pool. That does not help the debate because it just weakens your own credibility if you later try to stand up against racism.

Yeah, well, when I figure how to fix that same problem in my country, I'll let you know.
Are you Canadian or American?

The EU has problems. Well, it's a brand new thing, not even finished yet, and it will be up to you guys to get it on the right track. But if you don't want to end up living in Ny Nordland's fantasy world within 25 years, then you need to figure out how to keep "undesireables" out without creating any circumstance, however accidental, that he and his ilk could use to promote their politics. You have to take a stand and be very, very clear about it at all times.

For instance, you. Here you are, presenting good, rational arguments. But in other threads, you cavalierly support Ny's racism while claiming that you aren't really a racist, either, you're just interested in the quality of your dating pool. That does not help the debate because it just weakens your own credibility if you later try to stand up against racism.
And for these reasons I will aim to be perfectly clear. :)

Are you Canadian or American?
American. Please don't rub it in.

And for these reasons I will aim to be perfectly clear. :)
Excellent! Next stop: world peace.

American. Please don't rub it in.
Would be very un-European of me not to. :) But you're still better off than us in some ways. Namely, your Constitution. If only we could mirror something like it in Europe for the EU, more along Swiss lines though.

That should probably read "Semi-naked team of written-about women attract attention in any country."

But, that would come in the way of the OP's xenophobically retarded attempt to insinuate something about Turkey, and not about heterosexual men...
Good point. Hell, even if I lived in a nudist colony and saw that sort of thing all the time, I'd still look, cuz they're probably pretty nice-looking.

As for the EU: I think it's a thing with a lot of potential, the problem being getting a governmental entity that is acceptable to people of dozens of different national and cultural traditions (as well as getting countries like Turkey and Greece to get along-- they've been duking it out since before Israel and Palestine).

But you're still better off than us in some ways. Namely, your Constitution. If only we could mirror something like it in Europe for the EU, more along Swiss lines though.

The US constitution shouldn't be emulated, since it is itself outdated and shoddily written. While we're at it, the EU needs to be killed dead. Constitution, my bum!

The US constitution shouldn't be emulated, since it is itself outdated and shoddily written. While we're at it, the EU needs to be killed dead. Constitution, my bum!
Not much of a Europhile then? :p I'd prefer it were it to be reformed into a confederation. I don't like its present form, not one bit.

The US constitution shouldn't be emulated, since it is itself outdated and shoddily written. While we're at it, the EU needs to be killed dead. Constitution, my bum!Hear Hear!

Not much of a Europhile then? :p I'd prefer it were it to be reformed into a confederation. I don't like its present form, not one bit.Before Denmark railroaded the Scandinavian project by joining EU, there Fass had a perfectly good alternative.

Not much of a Europhile then? :p

I'm sorry, but being part of the same super state as Poland, Ireland, Italy, and the rest gives me the creeps.

I'd prefer it were it to be reformed into a confederation.

I'd prefer for it to die in a fire.

I don't like its present form, not one bit.

I won't like any form of it. We don't need a frickin' USE.

I'm sorry, but being part of the same super state as Poland, Ireland, Italy, and the rest gives me the creeps.

I'd prefer for it to die in a fire.

I won't like any form of it. We don't need a frickin' USE.
To use a cliche, we'll agree to disagree then. ;)

To use a cliche, we'll agree to disagree then. ;)

You do that, and I'll undermine any and all Europhile aspirations.

You do that, and I'll undermine any and all Europhile aspirations.
Hear, hear.

Hear, hear.
Meh, throw yourselves a little tea party then. :p

In any case, it is time for me to take my leave and attempt to get some sleep. To all I bid goodnight.

I do say... we need more people in Muslim countries to run nekkid across the streets!!! :)

If i went to a country where the religion was predominantly muslim and walked out in a bikini, i would expect, at the very least, to be stared at everywhere i went. Would i like it? maybe not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Most western women who go to muslim countries actually cover up a bit. They don't wear a burkha or anything, but they do wear a head covering, simply out of respect. We expect people to conform to our standards when they are in our country, why not do the same thing in theirs?

If you really want to walk around scantily clad in a muslim country, go ahead, but don't act shocked when people stare. In their culture women just don't do that, whether we agree or not isn't really the issue, we still can't plead ignorance when it happens.

To me, it's like complaining about being punished for breaking the law, simply because you disagree with the law. Just because you think something should be legal, doesn't change the fact that it might not be. Most people know which things are legal and which aren't. If you want to partake in something illegal, go ahead (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone), but deal with the consequences.

The point isnt about "not respecting" their culture or tradition. The point is to expose the difference of cultures. Those differences are denied by some ignorant people.

You 2 seem to keep rephrazing each other. Why not make one post and hence decrease the waste of space?

Let's review -
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in my country. They can be in other countries."
"I'm not racist, I just don't want THEM in European countries. They can stay in their own countries"
"I'm not racist, I just don't want their countries in our Union."

Now let's incorporate a couple of other points you try to make:
"White people are going extinct. It's because we allow immigration"
(Let's ignore that the two issues are COMPLETELY unrelated and the first doesn't exist.
"Dark skinned people are genetically inferior."
"Other cultures are inferior."

Hmmm... Why do you people keep jumping to conclusions about our friend who is clearly one who believe in equality and fair treatment for all?

No - when you equate it to a religious 'culture', and start making comments about people not agreeing with you because they are immigrants, and start talking about the moral 'purity' of your fatherland being compromised by immigrants...

You original argument, a few weeks back - was that you just wanted your fatherland to remain static.

It was close to racism, but not explicit.

Since that point, you have started a number of threads about how blacks are less intelligent than whites...

And now, we have a thread about barring Turkey from the EU. Effectively, you are saying you want to keep this 'corrupting influence' out of - not just Norway (your ORIGINAL claim), but all of Europe.

Judge a man not on his TALK. Judge him on how he WALKS.

You perpetuate hate based on cosmetic difference, and you discriminate based on colour and creed.

I have several words I use to describe people who fit that categorisation... but one of the most work-safe is "racist".

1) I dont equate repression of women to one "religious" culture. It's just that women are treated badly in ALL non-european muslim countries (B&H and Albania, as usual, are exceptions). Even in Turkey, which is shown as an example muslim country, 90% of women are subjected to violence. And I regard all cultures which sees women as 2nd class citizens as primitive...

2) If Fass thinks harrassing women is ok, it's very likely that he is an immigrant. It's just statistics, not racism. For ex:


While Muslims account for less than 6 percent of the Dutch population, Muslim women are 60 percent of those in battered women's shelters. The government was reluctant to talk about the situation, Hirsi Ali says, because they believed tolerance required respecting different cultures and traditions.


http://www.feminist.com/news/vaw26.html

So if you are from the netherlands and u make comments about harrassing women you are most likely a muslim. Because muslims are much more likely to subject women to violence.

3) And "discriminating" against muslims is not racism because there is no muslim race.

4) I've never said dark skinned people are genetically inferior. You are simply LYING to make your point which shows how desperate you are.

As usual you 2 are acting like ignorant villigers with torch. The treatment of women in muslim countries debunks your idiotic theory "we are all the same" so instead of answering it you chant "racist" like broken gramaphones or lie.


"White people are going extinct. It's because we allow immigration"
(Let's ignore that the two issues are COMPLETELY unrelated and the first doesn't exist.


Usual Jocabia tactics. I answered this couple times before but you keep repeating yourself. Do you think when you repeat yourself 1000 times, you will tire your opponnent and hence "win" the argument? Another thing you do is to disect the argument (like arguing USA birth rate) while even IF you are right it wont change the main argument (gains in US white population not enough to cover losses in europe) and hence drag the discussion as long as you can so in the end only 3 people are remaining who were supporting you from the beginning so that you can claim "people thought I was right". Of course you wont include those people are 3 biased posters. And then you lie. Are you this desperate to "win"???
Immigration and birth rate are related because immigration allows politicians to ignore declining population and not do something about it. Goverment policies does help birth rate. ex: France(some pro natal policies) :1.9 births per women, Germany(sucks at supporting family): 1.3 births per women
They are again related because massive immigration to a declining population country will cause indiginous people to be in minority and hence distorting the original culture to the point of destruction.

I'm sorry, but being part of the same super state as Poland, Ireland, Italy, and the rest gives me the creeps.
Hey, what's wrong with Ireland?

Hey, what's wrong with Ireland?Orthodoxy?

Orthodoxy?
And what about Ireland is orthodox?

It just seems... funny. Protesting being anything other than a racist, and surround oneself with an increasing canon that suggests otherwise.

Stalin, caught with his hand in the cookie jar... or something. :)

What's funny and pathetic is that you make 20 posts about my 1 post.

He said specifically, that he doesn't want any country to be Muslim that applies for the EU. That makes it the argument. You can try to talk about what you think all you want, but I was replying to what HE SAID. If you don't like it, talk to him.

And, wait, the EU is a Christian organization? Is there something about religious freedom in your charter? Can we all make stuff up or just you?

When did I say this? You are simply lying again. You are really pathetic.

And what about Ireland is orthodox?~90% of the citizens of the republic?

The vast body of your arguments focus on the past. The past is gone. The EU has, currently, a set of principles which it deems paramount to its function, such as an extremely high respect for human rights and a commitment to equality between genders and so on. Turkey has yet to live up to the standards the EU demands of it. The EU can, and should, demand the best from its members. It can afford, in some cases, to integrate smaller countries and help them move up, but not larger ones.

And I should note that, though it is secular and for that I commend it, its current government has a strong pro-Islam bias and a mind to restore Islam in government. The military is the one who has great stakes in secularism.

And the military is also homophobic. No instution of theirs seems to be up for european standarts...

~90% of the citizens of the republic?
Roman Catholic isn't an orthodox demonination, to my knowledge.

I never said Islam leads to human rights violations, dont put words in my mouth. I am also not saying Europe has a perfect history, but it is just that, history. The Europe of today values human rights and freedoms, Im not convinced you can say that about Turkey.

Also its not a matter of xenophobia to be relucant to call Turkey Europe, its a matter of geography. Turkey is in Asia, just because it borders a European countrym, doesnt make it one. If you keep extending Europe's borders, where does it end? If Turkey is a member can Iraq apply for membership since it borders Turkey a supposed european nation. Or Iran? It would just be a slippery slope.

3% of Turkey is in Europe, the rest being in Asia. I think if we call Turkey European, we can call spain african and france south american and portugal asian (I guess they havent returned macau yet?)

1) I dont equate repression of women to one "religious" culture. It's just that women are treated badly in ALL non-european muslim countries (B&H and Albania, as usual, are exceptions). Even in Turkey, which is shown as an example muslim country, 90% of women are subjected to violence. And I regard all cultures which sees women as 2nd class citizens as primitive...
Link?

2) If Fass thinks harrassing women is ok, it's very likely that he is an immigrant. It's just statistics, not racism. For ex:
http://www.feminist.com/news/vaw26.html
Actually, you want to say: "If you are abused, it is likely that you're an imigrant." That's what the statistics say...
And you forgot to add this part:
But Sezai Aydogan, a government advisor on Muslim family issues and director of TransAct, a Dutch center for the prevention of sexual violence, views things differently. Yes, he says the number of Muslim women in shelters is disproportionately high, "but often they are often immigrants with few contacts here, whereas the Dutch can find shelter with family and friends."
It would explain a bit about why the numbers are so high.


So if you are from the netherlands and u make comments about harrassing women you are most likely a muslim. Because muslims are much more likely to subject women to violence.
Huh? Where do you get this from then? "Making comments"? :confused:

The article doesn't say anything about the helicopter changing course, nor that they were looking at the girls:

It may just have been, well, on training...

Petty word games, huh? You should have googled it though. This is the first link of my search


Flying low



In Ankara for a tournament, the Norwegian volleyball team wearing skimpy bikinis while heading for Ankara’s parks to make the most of the shining sun caused a military helicopter to steer off course.

The National young women’s team went first to Gençlik Park for their tanning session and were surrounded by young men from the capital, some wanting simply to meet them, while others started taking photographs with their mobile phones.

A closer look

Deciding that another spot would be preferable, the girls then went to Gölbaşı, only to get another share of ‘interest’ from a military pilot, flying lower in order to get a closer look at the girls, who said, “When the pilot saw us, we saw the helicopter do a u-turn and fly as low as 10 metres above our heads.”

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4487530.asp?gid=74

Roman Catholic isn't an orthodox demonination, to my knowledge.I'm sorry, I meant orthodoxy, as in "strict adherence to". I suppose I should've said fundamentalism instead.

This much we agree on. I think Europe and anyone else with influence need to press hard to help tilt this country away from a theocracy. I don't care what theo the theocracy is, it's a dangerous thing.

So you are saying without european help the country will become theocratic. And turks need european guidance to choose what is best for them? I think this is a very condensending attitude of you towards turks...

I would be interested in seeing where our Constitutional debate leads us. I am hoping we can engineer something like your Constitution with regard to individual rights and judicial powers, but closer to Switzerland as regards the actual governmental structure of the Union. For now, all expansion should be slowed down to a bare minimum and all focus be put on this Constitution.

GOD! You are a europhile???

i like to refer to it as the new orleans syndrome. you know where the hurricane was reported coming to just about everyone over and over again but the government never held the hand of these people and told them to leave.

common sense is rapidly becoming extinct. wheres the peti (people for the ethical treatment of intelligence) when you need them

I think it is a common sense to expect to be able to sunbath in a park without being harrassed in a EU membership candidate.

3% of Turkey is in Europe, the rest being in Asia. I think if we call Turkey European, we can call spain african and france south american and portugal asian (I guess they havent returned macau yet?)
They've returned Macau in 1999. Keep up with the news.

Yeah, well, when I figure how to fix that same problem in my country, I'll let you know.

The EU has problems. Well, it's a brand new thing, not even finished yet, and it will be up to you guys to get it on the right track. But if you don't want to end up living in Ny Nordland's fantasy world within 25 years, then you need to figure out how to keep "undesireables" out without creating any circumstance, however accidental, that he and his ilk could use to promote their politics. You have to take a stand and be very, very clear about it at all times.

For instance, you. Here you are, presenting good, rational arguments. But in other threads, you cavalierly support Ny's racism while claiming that you aren't really a racist, either, you're just interested in the quality of your dating pool. That does not help the debate because it just weakens your own credibility if you later try to stand up against racism.

So you define your understanding of "racism" and say anyone "supporting it" is uncredible? You are very dogmatic. You dont think about them but you label them and dismiss them. You too are in a place in political spectrum which is the symmetry of religious wackos.

Roman Catholic isn't an orthodox demonination, to my knowledge.

Correct, Catholosism and Orthodox is as individual and different as Catholosism and Protestants.

Just to add a few extra points to the procedings on the Islam discussion. In the more developed Muslim countries the WOMEN CHOOSE to dress as they do because it means that such things as crowds of people (or even one person) oggling them has no chance of happening, and in alot of those countries (among the educated at least) they are as much Muslims as a 'standard' British person is Christian. Alot of the ideas that anti-peace and social wellbeing west have 'deemed' as subjugation of women was installed in place in order to protect those women. Yes shit does happen but it happens everywhere. I personally don't see every Christian as warmongering big-headed and corrupt just because the US government IS. Single people and Nations cannot be judged on the actions of a few or even the actions of their government, each individual has a moral code to which they follow and these differ alot between person to person. Unfortunatly there are still some out there who's moral code allows them to believe it is good to slander others and promote the forced removal of other peoples cultures and heritages.

The US constitution shouldn't be emulated, since it is itself outdated and shoddily written. While we're at it, the EU needs to be killed dead. Constitution, my bum!

If you werent "sarcastic" about this, then the end of world is near. Because we agree.

I adore Old English, even though I can't speak it that well...yet. Wouldn't use thou/thy/thine in a conversation though, even though I'd like to.

I drop them into my post, every so often... I also 'reclaim' words - like my use of 'sistren', or the correct usages of words like 'nice' and 'minion'. :)

Hey, what's wrong with Ireland?
They deny women the right to choose?

We, the citizens of the EU, will decide in the end what happens.

A referendum?

3% of Turkey is in Europe, the rest being in Asia. I think if we call Turkey European, we can call spain african and france south american and portugal asian (I guess they havent returned macau yet?)
So Russia isn't allowed in the EU either?

So you define your understanding of "racism" and say anyone "supporting it" is uncredible? You are very dogmatic. You dont think about them but you label them and dismiss them. You too are in a place in political spectrum which is the symmetry of religious wackos.

Ny, Ny, Ny, whatever will we do with you? Racism in this context is like dementia. People who suffer from it are clearly not right in the head and anything they say should be taken with a large grain of salt, if at all.

Do you follow the ravings of a lunatic as some kind of gospel truth? Of course you don't, he's a lunatic.

Similarly, xenophobes get stuck in the same category. Especially those who don't bother to intelligently debate.

So until you do intelligently debate topics rather than your tired old recycled vomit, be prepared to have no credibility.

But then of course, I expect that a person of your stature, or lack theroff, will not disappoint when it comes to the inability to adapt your tactics and create new and for once, sensible debating points. You wouldn't be a xenophobe if you could.

Link?

Actually, you want to say: "If you are abused, it is likely that you're an imigrant." That's what the statistics say...
And you forgot to add this part:

It would explain a bit about why the numbers are so high.


Huh? Where do you get this from then? "Making comments"? :confused:

1) Non European Muslim countries: North Africa, M.E.(including Turkey), Malaysia? Indonesia? What else? Any of them with good women rights records?

2) I guess it was a man in your quote. This is the first page in my google search:


"I had to speak up," she said, in a telephone interview from her hiding place, "because most spokesmen for Muslims are men and they deny or belittle the enormous problems of Muslim women locked up in their Dutch homes."



"I've made people so angry because I'm talking from the inside, from direct knowledge," she said. "It's seen as treason. I'm considered an apostate and that's worse than an atheist."

The theme of injustice toward women in Islamic countries has become common in the West, but it has gained fresh currency through Ms. Hirsi Ali's European perspective, her study of Dutch immigrants and her own life. Born in Mogadishu, she grew up a typical Muslim girl in Somalia. When she was 5, she underwent the "cruel ritual," as she called it, of genital cutting. When her father, a Somali opposition politician, had to flee the country's political troubles, the family went to Saudi Arabia, where, she said, she was kept veiled and, much of the time, indoors.


http://www.racematters.org/ayaanhirsiali.htm

You're simplifying it to death, Jocabia.

Turkey is struggeling hard to catch up to what most Europeans consider an unacceptably poor standard, with regards to civil liberties, the justice system & education. They're doing everything they can, and there's no reason to believe they won't succede in modernising the country, but it will take time. To say that Turkey, in its current state, wouldn't utterly fuck up the EU project (assuming they could join tomorrow) & Turkey, is absurd.

We're much, much too different right now, to work together that closely. It's comparable to saying that Cuba could become the 51 US state tomorrow, with no significant & spectacular side effects, like civil unrest or war & bombing economies.

But unless something drastic happens, Turkey will be an EU member in the not-too-distant future. They do, however, need to accomplish quite a few things before the country's remotely compatible with the rest of the EU (and the EU needs to be ready & able to afford it). Ten years, presumably.. By then, neither will be truely ready for it & it'll cause a hell of a lot of problems & probably a lot of fascism (The EU countries are highly xenophobic in general), but it'll work out.. More or less.

The parallel is flawed.

Cuba COULD become a 51st state with no harm to either, in any significant way - but it won't - because of politics. The US would try to be 'the empire', and Cuba would be relegated to vassal-state status. The political and cultural ideologies wouldn't have to be a source of conflict - especially since Cuba is not 'mainland'.

The real problem is governmental attitude... the US has a passion for empire building, and determining what is 'acceptable' in a partner.

If the EU can manage to avoid the worst excesses of the US model, there is no reason why Turkey... or Israel... or China, could not be part of the Union - except for geography.

Petty word games, huh?
You have quite a lot of hostility, don't you.

You really think it's "petty"? It makes quite a lot of difference if the helicopter went off course, rather then, as the article you provided stated, they were simply inconvenienced by "a military helicopter on training" that "hovered over where the Norwegian players were sunbathing." That the helicopter should deviate from its training is not a clear interpretation of this article.


You should have googled it though. This is the first link of my search

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4487530.asp?gid=74
I did a quick google search, actually, and found very little. A search of the player "Hilda Elvebakk" gave only the link to the first article, and did not find an article on this matter that doesn't link back to Hürriyet.

I didn't find anything on BBC or any news mediums other then your links, so I'd imagine you know what to look for. So could you present a third, independent link? Have you got a norwegian link, perhaps? I'd imagine this would get some coverage there. What are the reactions of the norwegians?

Correct, Catholosism and Orthodox is as individual and different as Catholosism and Protestants.Argh! Orthodoxy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=orthodox): "Adhering to the accepted or traditional and established faith, especially in religion." - Which is precicely what I meant.

They deny women the right to choose?
Well there was that abortion ship a few years ago, though I was too young to care really. And women can go to England and have an abortion.

They've returned Macau in 1999. Keep up with the news.

LOL. I learned Macau in school but wasnt reading news until like a couple years back...

The parallel is flawed.You're right as usual, but by the time I realised just how poor an example it was, Jocabia had already replied. In my defence, I think it was around 4 am when I posted it. The only good alanogy, would have been using Turkey as the 51st state.

So Russia isn't allowed in the EU either?

I'm against them joining EU. It's a non-issue anyways. Russia itself isnt interested.

Ny, Ny, Ny, whatever will we do with you? Racism in this context is like dementia. People who suffer from it are clearly not right in the head and anything they say should be taken with a large grain of salt, if at all.

Do you follow the ravings of a lunatic as some kind of gospel truth? Of course you don't, he's a lunatic.

Similarly, xenophobes get stuck in the same category. Especially those who don't bother to intelligently debate.

So until you do intelligently debate topics rather than your tired old recycled vomit, be prepared to have no credibility.

But then of course, I expect that a person of your stature, or lack theroff, will not disappoint when it comes to the inability to adapt your tactics and create new and for once, sensible debating points. You wouldn't be a xenophobe if you could.

Your thinking is much more closer to some "ravings of a lunatic", because of your dogmas.

1) Non European Muslim countries: North Africa, M.E.(including Turkey), Malaysia? Indonesia? What else? Any of them with good women rights records?
Sooo... no links then? Nothing to back up your "90% of women are subjected to violence" claim?


2) I guess it was a man in your quote.
So? Does this in any way have any bearing on what I posted?


This is the first page in my google search:
http://www.racematters.org/ayaanhirsiali.htm
Yes, that's Ayaan Hirsi Ali. What of her, regarding my post?

You 2 seem to keep rephrazing each other. Why not make one post and hence decrease the waste of space?


See - where I come from, people are encouraged to have their OWN opinions. So - if two people voice an opinion, maybe it is because BOTH people ahve that opinion?


1) I dont equate repression of women to one "religious" culture. It's just that women are treated badly in ALL non-european muslim countries (B&H and Albania, as usual, are exceptions). Even in Turkey, which is shown as an example muslim country, 90% of women are subjected to violence. And I regard all cultures which sees women as 2nd class citizens as primitive...


Women have been treated bad in almost every culture, at some point. I wonder why the MUslim women don't flee their oppressive empires and relocate to nicer countries.... oh yeah - because people like you don't WANT them in your country...


2) If Fass thinks harrassing women is ok, it's very likely that he is an immigrant. It's just statistics, not racism. For ex:


No - that kind of comment is almost DEFINITIVELY racism.

So if you are from the netherlands and u make comments about harrassing women you are most likely a muslim. Because muslims are much more likely to subject women to violence.


Illogical, and bullshit, all in one.


3) And "discriminating" against muslims is not racism because there is no muslim race.


But, you don't just discriminate against their 'religion'... we've covered this before in other threads. I like the way you revise history every time you get involved in a new rant.


4) I've never said dark skinned people are genetically inferior. You are simply LYING to make your point which shows how desperate you are.


Revisionist history.

You've actually started two different threads JUST for that purpose.

Don't call me a liar, my friend... people just don't have memories as short as you'd LIKE them to be.


As usual you 2 are acting like ignorant villigers with torch. The treatment of women in muslim countries debunks your idiotic theory "we are all the same" so instead of answering it you chant "racist" like broken gramaphones or lie.


Yes. You want to chase the 'darkies' out, so those of us who are willing to share MUST be the villagers.

You realise, of course, that you volunteer yourself as either 'mad' or a 'monster', with that analogy?

What's funny and pathetic is that you make 20 posts about my 1 post.

Yep. That's the funny and pathetic part.

Not the 'judging people based on the colour of their skins' part... that's just 'cool', right?

Wow Ny you certainly aren't racist:rolleyes: Just picky of who is allowed in certain places

You're right as usual, but by the time I realised just how poor an example it was, Jocabia had already replied. In my defence, I think it was around 4 am when I posted it. The only good alanogy, would have been using Turkey as the 51st state.

:) Sorry friend... wasn't trying to kill your argument... it shows the important distinction - so, I capitalised on it...

That being - Cuba would be win:win, but the POLITICS of the 'imperialist' would be the problem.

In the case of Turkey, the EU can avoid those excesses, and Turkey COULD become a valid memberstate.

Sooo... no links then? Nothing to back up your "90% of women are subjected to violence" claim?


I gave a link when I made that "claim". Read previous posts. Dont waste space by repetition.


So? Does this in any way have any bearing on what I posted?


Yes, that's Ayaan Hirsi Ali. What of her, regarding my post?

If it was a man who said the quote in your post, that makes that man uncredible and hence your quote. Because as Ayaan Hirsi Ali said muslim men seems to ignore the problem. Why coulnt you connect the dots?

See - where I come from, people are encouraged to have their OWN opinions. So - if two people voice an opinion, maybe it is because BOTH people ahve that opinion?



Women have been treated bad in almost every culture, at some point. I wonder why the MUslim women don't flee their oppressive empires and relocate to nicer countries.... oh yeah - because people like you don't WANT them in your country...



No - that kind of comment is almost DEFINITIVELY racism.



Illogical, and bullshit, all in one.



But, you don't just discriminate against their 'religion'... we've covered this before in other threads. I like the way you revise history every time you get involved in a new rant.



Revisionist history.

You've actually started two different threads JUST for that purpose.

Don't call me a liar, my friend... people just don't have memories as short as you'd LIKE them to be.



Yes. You want to chase the 'darkies' out, so those of us who are willing to share MUST be the villagers.

You realise, of course, that you volunteer yourself as either 'mad' or a 'monster', with that analogy?

No I volunteer myself as a scientist whose experiments are classified as witchcraft.
You are a liar. Or because of your dogmatic thinking you label me in one category and interpret my posts with your prejudices. Here is a quote from me:


Supremacy charges are on big sale this season. Everyone seems to be throwing it. How come I was arguing supremacy? If blacks got lower iq, does it mean they are inferior? No, because intelligence isnt the only thing. Is Stephan Hawking superior than 99.9% of humanity? Certainly not, especially in his wheel chair. I respect him but he's not superior.
Btw blacks are very successful at athletics as most branches are dominated by them. So saying blacks are good at sports is racist? Supremacists? Asians are a bit smarter than whites too, does it mean they are superior to whites? Not to me, because I find most of them unattractive and the ones that are kinda attractive or attractive are less goodlooking than whites. So to me, they are not superior, because looks matter to me. Of course there are other stuff like imminue system etc...


If you think that I think browns are inferior, it's not because I said it. It's because how you interpreted my posts/threads...

edit: Where are you from btw?

Well there was that abortion ship a few years ago, though I was too young to care really. And women can go to England and have an abortion.
But it's illegal in Ireland.

I'm against them joining EU. It's a non-issue anyways. Russia itself isnt interested.
At least you're consistent.

I gave a link when I made that "claim". Read previous posts.
You did? Not here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11089535&postcount=165), nor here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11089791&postcount=190)... So... Where, exactly?
Dont waste space by repetition.
Then answer the question.

Don't waste space by making claims you can't back up then. Or be courteous and show where you back it up.

If it was a man who said the quote in your post, that makes that man uncredible and hence your quote. Because as Ayaan Hirsi Ali said muslim men seems to ignore the problem. Why coulnt you connect the dots?
WHAT?! :eek:
Because the director of TransAct (http://www.transact.nl/), a Dutch center for the prevention of sexual violence, happens to be a man, his theories of why there are so many immigrant women in shelters are somehow automatically invalidated?

And there is no indication that he is a muslim, so how can you "connect the dots"?

What are you on about?

:) Sorry friend... wasn't trying to kill your argument... it shows the important distinction - so, I capitalised on it...Not to worry, I'll be the first to admit it wasn't the best of analogies.That being - Cuba would be win:win, but the POLITICS of the 'imperialist' would be the problem.

In the case of Turkey, the EU can avoid those excesses, and Turkey COULD become a valid memberstate.The difference is, of course, that the EU isn't a hegemony like the US, which makes all this a bit sought.

Turkey will eventually, as I've previously said, become part of the EU. There's not much doubt about that, Ny Nordland nazis or not. There's just a staggeringly huge amount of "little things" that needs to be accomplished, before it can happen. Little things, that in the case of the US sizing a new domain, wouldn't be a problem. The difference is that the US is a hegemony, not a union. If the US had to incorporate Turkey or Cuba as a 51st state, there'd be the same problems.

The prospect member nation would need to conform to US standards on all levels. The education system in Cuba, for example, would more or less have to be rebuild from scratch. The aggri-business would pretty much need to be re-established. Almost every single law & regulation would either need to be replaced entirely, or revised considerably. Even infrastructure would need to be geared towards a unification.

Those are the problems faced by the EU & Turkey, and though Turkey is working towards "EU compatibility" as fast as it can, such drastic changes takes a while. Even simple things like the processes involved when going to a dentist, needs to be revised. It just isn't a simple question of "If there's a will, there's a quick fix".

Perhaps my analogy wasn't entirely flawed, just a bit reversed. Turkey have a major problem with the urban vs. the non-urban culture. The urban populations aren't significantly different from, for example, the Greeks. But the rest are. There's a massive cultural divide in the country, and it isn't entirely unreasonable to compare it to the powers that be in Washington. Where the US is unwilling to consider Cuba as anything but a vassal-state, large parts of the Turks are unwilling to "westernise" their way of life. Too rapid attempts to change this, may result in chaos.

No I volunteer myself as a scientist whose experiments are classified as witchcraft.
You are a liar. Or because of your dogmatic thinking you label me in one category and interpret my posts with your prejudices. Here is a quote from me:


I am not a liar - you keep saying it - but that actually doesn't make it so.

I can only base my opinion of you on what you have said, and you consistently start threads about racial or cultural issues... in an antagonistic fashion. You are condescending towards other races, you are xenophobic, and you post bullshit reports about how 'blacks' are more stupid than 'whites'.

It's nothing to do with MY prejudices, my friend.

This is ALL about you.

HOLY CRAP THE POPE IS CATHOLIC!


:gundge:

and i dont understand this smiley

Not to worry, I'll be the first to admit it wasn't the best of analogies.The difference is, of course, that the EU isn't a hegemony like the US, which makes all this a bit sought.

Turkey will eventually, as I've previously said, become part of the EU. There's not much doubt about that, Ny Nordland nazis or not. There's just a staggeringly huge amount of "little things" that needs to be accomplished, before it can happen. Little things, that in the case of the US sizing a new domain, wouldn't be a problem. The difference is that the US is a hegemony, not a union. If the US had to incorporate Turkey or Cuba as a 51st state, there'd be the same problems.

The prospect member nation would need to conform to US standards on all levels. The education system in Cuba, for example, would more or less have to be rebuild from scratch. The aggri-business would pretty much need to be re-established. Almost every single law & regulation would either need to be replaced entirely, or revised considerably. Even infrastructure would need to be geared towards a unification.

Those are the problems faced by the EU & Turkey, and though Turkey is working towards "EU compatibility" as fast as it can, such drastic changes takes a while. Even simple things like the processes involved when going to a dentist, needs to be revised. It just isn't a simple question of "If there's a will, there's a quick fix".

Perhaps my analogy wasn't entirely flawed, just a bit reversed. Turkey have a major problem with the urban vs. the non-urban culture. The urban populations aren't significantly different from, for example, the Greeks. But the rest are. There's a massive cultural divide in the country, and it isn't entirely unreasonable to compare it to the powers that be in Washington. Where the US is unwilling to consider Cuba as anything but a vassal-state, large parts of the Turks are unwilling to "westernise" their way of life. Too rapid attempts to change this, may result in chaos.

But, all of Turkey doesn't NEED to westernise. Look at New Mexico as a US state... it is like a statewide bordertown, in a lot of ways. It has it's 'high points', and it's 'low'.

If Turkey is accepted into the EU - it will mainly affect the cities - and those are largely compatible already.

Regarding issues like education reform... well, ALL of europe has been doing that on and off, forever... just make it a condition that the reform process must start, and make Turkey 'probationary', while the prodecure continues.

You did? Not here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11089535&postcount=165), nor here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11089791&postcount=190)... So... Where, exactly?

Then answer the question.

Don't waste space by making claims you can't back up then. Or be courteous and show where you back it up.

WHAT?! :eek:
Because the director of TransAct (http://www.transact.nl/), a Dutch center for the prevention of sexual violence, happens to be a man, his theories of why there are so many immigrant women in shelters are somehow automatically invalidated?

And there is no indication that he is a muslim, so how can you "connect the dots"?

What are you on about?

I backed my claims here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11084141&postcount=27

Be courteous enough to read the posts in a thread you are writing. Or at least before you accuse someone of not backing up thier claims.
The name of the man/woman didnt sound dutch so I googled "Sezai". It is a turkish name and turks are muslims. So he is a muslim men and hirsi ali suggests muslim men ignore the problems women face. Now you get it?

HOLY CRAP THE POPE IS CATHOLIC!


:gundge:

and i dont understand this smiley
Yet you still use it :)

I am not a liar - you keep saying it - but that actually doesn't make it so.

I can only base my opinion of you on what you have said, and you consistently start threads about racial or cultural issues... in an antagonistic fashion. You are condescending towards other races, you are xenophobic, and you post bullshit reports about how 'blacks' are more stupid than 'whites'.

It's nothing to do with MY prejudices, my friend.

This is ALL about you.

You are a liar. Because you say that I say x and y (for ex) when I havent said them.
Again, where are you from?

Not to worry, I'll be the first to admit it wasn't the best of analogies.The difference is, of course, that the EU isn't a hegemony like the US, which makes all this a bit sought.

Turkey will eventually, as I've previously said, become part of the EU. There's not much doubt about that, Ny Nordland nazis or not. There's just a staggeringly huge amount of "little things" that needs to be accomplished, before it can happen. Little things, that in the case of the US sizing a new domain, wouldn't be a problem. The difference is that the US is a hegemony, not a union. If the US had to incorporate Turkey or Cuba as a 51st state, there'd be the same problems.

The prospect member nation would need to conform to US standards on all levels. The education system in Cuba, for example, would more or less have to be rebuild from scratch. The aggri-business would pretty much need to be re-established. Almost every single law & regulation would either need to be replaced entirely, or revised considerably. Even infrastructure would need to be geared towards a unification.

Those are the problems faced by the EU & Turkey, and though Turkey is working towards "EU compatibility" as fast as it can, such drastic changes takes a while. Even simple things like the processes involved when going to a dentist, needs to be revised. It just isn't a simple question of "If there's a will, there's a quick fix".

Perhaps my analogy wasn't entirely flawed, just a bit reversed. Turkey have a major problem with the urban vs. the non-urban culture. The urban populations aren't significantly different from, for example, the Greeks. But the rest are. There's a massive cultural divide in the country, and it isn't entirely unreasonable to compare it to the powers that be in Washington. Where the US is unwilling to consider Cuba as anything but a vassal-state, large parts of the Turks are unwilling to "westernise" their way of life. Too rapid attempts to change this, may result in chaos.


Are you turkish?

But, all of Turkey doesn't NEED to westernise. Look at New Mexico as a US state... it is like a statewide bordertown, in a lot of ways. It has it's 'high points', and it's 'low'.

If Turkey is accepted into the EU - it will mainly affect the cities - and those are largely compatible already.All I can say is; I don't think you even begin to grasp the scope of the needed changes.just make it a condition that the reform process must start, and make Turkey 'probationary', while the prodecure continues.That pretty much sums up the current relationship between Turkey & the EU. It's an ongoing process & has been for the last several years. Turkey gets a few immediate benefits, and the promise of eventual EU membership. In return, Turkey works to reach various milestones.
Like I've already said several times; Turkey will be an EU nation. It's a question of when, not if.
I don't think, however, that it is reasonable to believe it can happen without major problems, within 10 years. Still, that in no way means it won't happen within the next 10 years. My girlfriend & I have a bet going. She believes it'll happen in 2017. I'm betting on 2014.

Are you turkish?No. Are you a a retarded neo-Nazi?

No. Are you a a retarded neo-Nazi?

No.
Where are you from then? And why are you so convinced that Turkey will eventually join EU?

I backed my claims here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11084141&postcount=27

Be courteous enough to read the posts in a thread you are writing. Or at least before you accuse someone of not backing up thier claims.
Thank you. Was that so hard? Now I can take you seriously again, even if your tone is overly agressive towards someone who wasn't really attacking you in the first place.

You see, I've read the whole thread, but only noticed your claim in post 165 (which I responded to). I did not know that you were refering to post 27 (which I read yesterday), as you gave no indication of this.

And now I understand where you got the number from, at least.

The name of the man/woman didnt sound dutch so I googled "Sezai". It is a turkish name and turks are muslims. So he is a muslim men and hirsi ali suggests muslim men ignore the problems women face. Now you get it?
No. I don't get it. I think you're assuming too much.

There are no indications that this man is a muslim. Regardless of his faith and culture, he presents valid arguements that doesn't even conflict with the statements made by Hirsi Ali. So I don't see your point at all.

No. Didn't your mum tell you not to lie, you stupid little ****?Where are you from then? And why are you so convinced that Turkey will eventually join EU?Perpahs if you didn't spend all your time on revisionist Nazi bullshit, you'd have a clue.

Are you turkish?
I'm British and I hate each and every one of your poisoned words with a passion.

I second that statement. Ny you should really get out more and mingle with people of different cultures. Maybethat way you'll find out they're not evil

Thank you. Was that so hard? Now I can take you seriously again, even if your tone is overly agressive towards someone who wasn't really attacking you in the first place.

You see, I've read the whole thread, but only noticed your claim in post 165 (which I responded to). I did not know that you were refering to post 27 (which I read yesterday), as you gave no indication of this.

And now I understand where you got the number from, at least.

No. I don't get it. I think you're assuming too much.

There are no indications that this man is a muslim. Regardless of his faith and culture, he presents valid arguements that doesn't even conflict with the statements made by Hirsi Ali. So I don't see your point at all.

His name is turkish. So it is reasonable to assume he is turkish. 99% of Turkey is muslim. I dont know about how much percentage of turks in europe is muslim but it is reasonable to assume it's high, maybe more than 90%. So, finally, it is also very reasonable to assume he is muslim.

You are a liar. Because you say that I say x and y (for ex) when I havent said them.
Again, where are you from?

Again with the personal attacks.

I don't think I'm misrepresenting you. You HAVE started a number of threads with a 'racist' leaning to them. You HAVE made insulting sweeping generalisations about a number of topics - most often your views on immigrants, but you don't stop there... Stephen Hawking is not superior because he is disabled? Come now...

You keep claiming you haven't said things. You have done THAT in thread after thread.. and you get shown your own words each time, and you try to weasel out of them.

And - I might add... it isn't just myself that thinks it.... there have even been threads started about ths 'phenomenon' of which you are an exemplar.

If you honestly think yourself NOT a racist... maybe you should look at why others might think you ARE?

You must be misrepresenting youurself, somewhere.

The only other alternative is - you are a racist, and just can't admit it, even to yourself.

Take some time for quiet introspection.

His name is turkish. So it is reasonable to assume he is turkish. 99% of Turkey is muslim. I dont know about how much percentage of turks in europe is muslim but it is reasonable to assume it's high, maybe more than 90%. So, finally, it is also very reasonable to assume he is muslim.
How would you feel if I told you I was a Muslim?

Would your views of me drop instantly because of that revelation?

Would you assume I hated women and freedom etc.?

What if it turned out that I was an immigrant from... let's say... Bahrain. Does that make me a worse person straight away?

If so, why?

(note : this is purely hypothetical, I'm a British Atheist)

Didn't your mum tell you not to lie, you stupid little ****?Perpahs if you didn't spend all your time on revisionist Nazi bullshit, you'd have a clue.

So you are either turkish or got some turkish background. Is that why you keep avoiding the question?

His name is turkish. So it is reasonable to assume he is turkish.

So... Orlando Jones is a stereotypical Welshman, yes?

So you are either turkish or got some turkish background. Is that why you keep avoiding the question?

Why would he avoid the question? Thats like me asking are you a racist and you avoiding the question..........Oh Wait:eek:

Why would he avoid the question? Thats like me asking are you a racist and you avoiding the question..........Oh Wait:eek:

define racist...

His name is turkish. So it is reasonable to assume he is turkish. 99% of Turkey is muslim. I dont know about how much percentage of turks in europe is muslim but it is reasonable to assume it's high, maybe more than 90%. So, finally, it is also very reasonable to assume he is muslim.
So his name might be turkish, so he might be turkish, so he might be a muslim - therefor you dismiss his arguments out of hand without taking the time to even considering them? Did you even read them?

define racist...
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So his name might be turkish, so he might be turkish, so he might be a muslim - therefor you dismiss his arguments out of hand without taking the time to even considering them? Did you even read them?

I dont dismiss them but you cant show his arguments as an absolute answer against why 2/3 of women in shelters is muslim.

I dont dismiss them but you cant show his arguments as an absolute answer against why 2/3 of women in shelters is muslim.
Because 2/3 of the countries that have been bombed in the last few years have been Islamic (pretty much) states?

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability


So saying blacks are good at sports (an ability) is racist?


and that a particular race is superior to others.


I've never said any such thing.


Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Define discrimination. Affirmative action (aka positive discrimination ) can be considered racist by this statement. Hence people supporting this and countries doing this (USA, UK, etc...) can be considered racist.

So you are either turkish or got some turkish background. Is that why you keep avoiding the question?Is that a rethorical question?

I'm not going to tell you where I was born, where I live or which country I'm a citizen of. My nationality has absolutely no bearing on my statements or anything else. I'm not Turkish, but unlike you, I've visited the country. You can choose to believe that or not. I don't give a damn.

If your rationale for divining my nationality, has something to do with my saying Turkey will become part of EU, you probably should've read all my posts in this thread. I'm absolutely not an EU proponent, and I firmly believe it's a piss poor idea to accept Turkish membership within the next - at least - 15 years. Any sooner than that, and the peoples of the EU countries won't be ready for it, the EU won't be able to afford it, and Turkey won't be ready for it.

Indicentially, why don't you post your name & address? - Norway isn't too far away from me & I have this Dr.Marten's Dental Plan I've been wanting to introduce you to. I can come over next weekend, if you want.

Define discrimination. Affirmative action (aka positive discrimination ) can be considered racist by this statement. Hence people supporting this and countries doing this (USA, UK, etc...) can be considered racist.

Not really. You can have one socialist policy, it wouldn't make you a socialist country. Although I don't think any has said affirmative action wasn't racist.

So saying blacks are good at sports (an ability) is racist?


Yes, just like when you say that Asians are smart. The fact that you can in your worldview have room for positive stereotyping doesn't exclude you from being a racist. And you also think black people are stupid.

Is that a rethorical question?

I'm not going to tell you where I was born, where I live or which country I'm a citizen of. My nationality has absolutely no bearing on my statements or anything else. I'm not Turkish, but unlike you, I've visited the country. You can choose to believe that or not. I don't give a damn.

If your rationale for divining my nationality, has something to do with my saying Turkey will become part of EU, you probably should've read all my posts in this thread. I'm absolutely not an EU proponent, and I firmly believe it's a piss poor idea to accept Turkish membership within the next - at least - 15 years. Any sooner than that, and the peoples of the EU countries won't be ready for it, the EU won't be able to afford it, and Turkey won't be ready for it.

Indicentially, why don't you post your name & address? - Norway isn't too far away from me & I have this Dr.Marten's Dental Plan I've been wanting to introduce you to. I can come over next weekend, if you want.

You got an uncivilized attitude as it is proven in this post. I was just wondering where such an uncivilized person might be from. I got my ideas of course. Nevermind though. Even if you state your ethnicity after this point, I really wont believe you.

Would be very un-European of me not to. :) But you're still better off than us in some ways. Namely, your Constitution. If only we could mirror something like it in Europe for the EU, more along Swiss lines though.
The US Constitution is, indeed, an outstanding political document, especially the concept of checks and balances and the Bill of Rights. Every constitution should include such specific limitations of government power. We were extremely lucky in the people who ran our revolution, founded our government and wrote its documents. Especially John Adams, who wrote the main body of the Constitution nearly single-handedly. Man, what a brain! Law students should light candles in front of statues of that guy and pour libations over his grave.

But if I have any complaints about the US Constitution, it would be that, in the rules governing elections, there is no mechanism for votes of no-confidence or special elections to remove bad administrations. Possibly such things didn't even exist at the time it was written. I think we see pretty clearly that we could use such a thing now.

Discrimination

1.The act of discriminating.
2.The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3.Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

Discrimination

1.The act of discriminating.
2.The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3.Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

By this definition Affirmitive action is racist.
By this definition doctors who perscribe/research drugs for different races are racist.
By this definition countries whose airports got seperate lines for their citizens and foreigners are racist (discrimination against foreigners)
Racism has become an empty word, so loosely defined and used. If you set its boundries so large, you can include MANY MANY people as racist.

You got an uncivilized attitude as it is proven in this post. I was just wondering where such an uncivilized person might be from. I got my ideas of course. Nevermind though. Even if you state your ethnicity after this point, I really wont believe you.

Don't tell me; such an uncivilised person would be from a Muslim or non-European country? Am I right? Go on, tell me I'm wrong and what you really meant.

hey don't blame me. Blame the people of dictionary.com:D

By this definition countries whose airports got seperate lines for their citizens and foreigners are racist (discrimination against foreigners)
You might call it normal, I'd call that Apartheid.

I dont dismiss them but you cant show his arguments as an absolute answer against why 2/3 of women in shelters is muslim.
I never did, that's why I wrote It would explain a bit about why the numbers are so high.

And I'm still appalled by how dismissive you are of the arguements just because of the name of the person who formulated them, and I'm surprised that you haven't gone back on your statement concerning the credibility of Sezai Aydogan...
If it was a man who said the quote in your post, that makes that man uncredible

Don't tell me; such an uncivilised person would be from a Muslim or non-European country? Am I right? Go on, tell me I'm wrong and what you really meant.
He also hates Russia, which is in Europe. Basically white, "pure" Norwegians and other Aryans are fine, everyone else is horrible and "primitive" or so it would seem.

Don't tell me; such an uncivilised person would be from a Muslim or non-European country? Am I right? Go on, tell me I'm wrong and what you really meant.

I consider any culture which treats women as 2nd class citizens as uncivilized. It's not my fault that most muslims treat women badly...

And I'm still appalled by how dismissive you are of the arguements just because of the name of the person who formulated them,

You have to remember this is the guy who assumed Jocabia was a Jew because "Jocabia" sounds kind of like "Jacob."

He also hates Russia, which is in Europe. Basically white, "pure" Norwegians and other Aryans are fine, everyone else is horrible and "primitive" or so it would seem.

I sometimes think Norway is backward because we allow hunting of whales. Dont assume too much....