NationStates Jolt Archive

but it actually works

You can only go forward when you're up to your neck in sand. You miss everything on your sides.

well what else was i to put? you whine about a little mistake, that had no big effect on anything

Yes it does. It shows how close-minded you are about people in general, and gay people in specific.

well what else was i to put? you whine about a little mistake, that had no big effect on anything
How about not making stupid ad-hominem attacks?

Because a Straight Pride Parade would be so necessary.

Because a Gay Pride Parade would be so necessary.

Its the same thing, just different people, they both dont make sense thats why i put that comment there

but i want the children parading with veterans, and i am not americian

We need to go back to the way it was, there is no need for ads like the coke ones, people are dieing in other countries and hear we are putting money into ads and shity mercincise

So, what you're saying is: "We should ban parades I don't like"?
No matter what you do, there are gay people all over the place and the yanks have the world by the balls, and while they do, there will be coke ads all over the place. You can bring about changes, but you can't change the world overnight. If you don't want to bring children into the world you're living in, then don't. If you allready have: Too bad.

And don't worry, there's plenty of children who grew up to be homophobes despite being raised in a jungle of coke billboards.

You can only go forward when you're up to your neck in sand. You miss everything on your sides.

thats bs

well what else was i to put? you whine about a little mistake, that had no big effect on anything
I'm not so concerned with your little mistakes as the huge, gaping mistake you made that brought you thus far in your musings.

Get a grip.

So, what you're saying is: "We should ban parades I don't like"?
No matter what you do, there are gay people all over the place and the yanks have the world by the balls, and while they do, there will be coke ads all over the place. You can bring about changes, but you can't change the world overnight. If you don't want to bring children into the world you're living in, then don't. If you allready have: Too bad.

And don't worry, there's plenty of children who grew up to be homophobes despite being raised in a jungle of coke billboards.

if a marry someone, how are we suppose not to have kids??? abortion is murder along with birth control

thats bs

Ok, if you're five or so feet underground with only your head poking out, how do you experience everything to the sides? (Think literally, but don't forget the metaphor.)

I'm not so concerned with your little mistakes as the huge, gaping mistake you made that brought you thus far in your musings.

Get a grip.

All you people are telling me to stop posting my opions because i am talking about getting ride of the freedom of speech for sexuality, but its so similar i am just voiceing my opion

Ok, if you're five or so feet underground with only your head poking out, how do you experience everything to the sides? (Think literally, but don't forget the metaphor.)

certain things you can move ahead on, such as womens rights(even though thats getting out of hand) or like peoples difference races

if a marry someone, how are we suppose not to have kids??? abortion is murder along with birth control

I think the birth-control recommended for people like you is "Abstaining".

Millions of armed&obese homophobes can't be wrong!

certain things you can move ahead on, such as womens rights(even though thats getting out of hand) or like peoples difference races

But things like women's rights and civil rights for people of other races besides caucasian didn't "work for your ancestors."

Oh, go on - whose puppet is this, anyway?

but they do, its in the public, my children will see this happening, how am i going to stop them from going to such paradesWhy would you be trying to stop them in the first place? If your kids want to form the opinion that gay people are just as equal as straight people, that's their business, not yours.

Sure, you parented them. No, that doesn't give you the right to arbitrarily ban them from public displays.

But things like women's rights and civil rights for people of other races besides caucasian didn't "work for your ancestors."

well, i dont know if my ancesters were even against women rights and were racists. But if they were, they were wrong, but if you look we are just as wrong by allowing international womens day, and black history. Those are racist and sexist just as much.

Why would you be trying to stop them in the first place? If your kids want to form the opinion that gay people are just as equal as straight people, that's their business, not yours.

Sure, you parented them. No, that doesn't give you the right to arbitrarily ban them from public displays.

i believe a parent shouldn have almost full control over there child. of course they should not beat them or do things that will damage them such as taking them to see the local pride parade

well, i dont know if my ancesters were even against women rights and were racists. But if they were, they were wrong, but if you look we are just as wrong by allowing international womens day, and black history. Those are racist and sexist just as much.

That, I can agree with. I hate the fact that we set days aside for historically oppressed groups of people. It's almost as bad as setting Valentine's Day aside to love people.

well, i dont know if my ancesters were even against women rights and were racists. But if they were, they were wrong, but if you look we are just as wrong by allowing international womens day, and black history. Those are racist and sexist just as much.

There's a guy who's got leopard spots tattooed all over his body and runs around the bushes all day wearing nothing but a thing. He lives on a small island just off the coast of Scotland, all alone. I hear he doesn't parade much.

That, I can agree with. I hate the fact that we set days aside for historically oppressed groups of people. It's almost as bad as setting Valentine's Day aside to love people.

ya, like along with the gays and the straights, whites and blacks, and female and male. WHO CARES what you are, you need no special treatment, but you should not tell everyone in there face that your special.

There's a guy who's got leopard spots tattooed all over his body and runs around the bushes all day wearing nothing but a thing. He lives on a small island just off the coast of Scotland, all alone. I hear he doesn't parade much.

as strange as that is, there is nothing wrong with it, its not in public, its on his island, and i have nothing wrong with that.

ya, like along with the gays and the straights, whites and blacks, and female and male. WHO CARES what you are, you need no special treatment, but you should not tell everyone in there face that your special.

And here is where we differ. Martin Luther King once said, and I paraphrase, if there is a law that causes you to be unjust to a certain group of people, then you should not abide by that law. You're trying to make gay pride parades illegal while keeping any other parade legal is unjust. And therefore...Well, you fill in the blank

as strange as that is, there is nothing wrong with it, its not in public, its on his island, and i have nothing wrong with that.

He doesn't own the island.
But I was implying maybe you and your future wife and your future offspring go there. There won't be any parades, coke-ads or gays.

ya, like along with the gays and the straights, whites and blacks, and female and male. WHO CARES what you are, you need no special treatment, but you should not tell everyone in there face that your special.The whole reason people take public pride in their gender/race/sexual orientation is BECAUSE of bigots who don't think they deserve equal treatment. There is a constant threat of denial of rights, as we're seeing with the gay marriage dispute, and if issues like these are ever going to be resolved, public demonstrations like gay-pride parades MUST continue.

We live in a democracy, and democracies are the perfect breeding ground for oppressive opinions. We can't ban public demonstrations until these oppressive opinions are quashed, and in order for them to be quashed in the first place, the demonstrations must go on to spread awareness and acceptance.

Maybe this has been addressed, but what IS okay to do in public?

And here is where we differ. Martin Luther King once said, and I paraphrase, if there is a law that causes you to be unjust to a certain group of people, then you should not abide by that law. You're trying to make gay pride parades illegal while keeping any other parade legal is unjust. And therefore...Well, you fill in the blank

its not the parade part thats bad about it, i think that gay people should not be allowed to voice there sexual preferances in public

BUT ALL PEOPLE IT SHOULS BE LIKE THAT, hetersexual too,i should have no right to go around and tell people that I LIKE PUSSY

He doesn't own the island.
But I was implying maybe you and your future wife and your future offspring go there. There won't be any parades, coke-ads or gays.

o, i would rather move to tuvalu, but they treat gays a little too extreme

gays are executed in tuvalu

In the words* of the great Eddie Izzard

"I think that people should be able to be homophobic all they want. As long as they do it behind closed doors and don't flaunt it."

And before you tell me that you aren't homophobic, Tory, I submit that there is a fine line between homophobia and close-mindedly enforcing heteronormativity, which is precisely what you're advocating.



*Transcribed from memory, so probably not all his words, but in any case...

The whole reason people take public pride in their gender/race/sexual orientation is BECAUSE of bigots who don't think they deserve equal treatment. There is a constant threat of denial of rights, as we're seeing with the gay marriage dispute, and if issues like these are ever going to be resolved, public demonstrations like gay-pride parades MUST continue.

We live in a democracy, and democracies are the perfect breeding ground for oppressive opinions. We can't ban public demonstrations until these oppressive opinions are quashed, and in order for them to be quashed in the first place, the demonstrations must go on to spread awareness and acceptance.

if a gay pride parade was more civilied than it is, i probley would not have anything against it, but is it? There all go around kissing, and alot of them are half naked

its not the parade part thats bad about it, i think that gay people should not be allowed to voice there sexual preferances in public

BUT ALL PEOPLE IT SHOULS BE LIKE THAT, hetersexual too,i should have no right to go around and tell people that I LIKE PUSSY

Why? What's the matter with making your sexual orientation known? Sure, it's a little unnecessary, but it's also protected by the Constitution.

its not the parade part thats bad about it, i think that gay people should not be allowed to voice there sexual preferances in public

BUT ALL PEOPLE IT SHOULS BE LIKE THAT, hetersexual too,i should have no right to go around and tell people that I LIKE PUSSY

Ok...I don't care what you say: You're either an American or a six year old.
Both are impossible to debate with.

Ok...I don't care what you say: You're either an American or a six year old.
Both are impossible to debate with.

Hey now. I consider myself a rather intelligent American. I also consider myself an exception to the rule. ;)

In the words* of the great Eddie Izzard

"I think that people should be able to be homophobic all they want. As long as they do it behind closed doors and don't flaunt it."

And before you tell me that you aren't homophobic, Tory, I submit that there is a fine line between homophobia and close-mindedly enforcing heteronormativity, which is precisely what you're advocating.



*Transcribed from memory, so probably not all his words, but in any case...

i am not close minded, i do not have strick political beliefs that stay the same, my views do change, i used to be a strong supporter of the death penality, but i saw other views to the argument

Why? What's the matter with making your sexual orientation known? Sure, it's a little unnecessary, but it's also protected by the Constitution.

forget the constitution for a minute, is that not wrong to go aroung and tell everyone that you like this and this person, and that you like that person and that person

forget the constitution for a minute, is that not wrong to go aroung and tell everyone that you like this and this person, and that you like that person and that person

Is that a question?

Is that a question?

ya i forgot to put a question mark

forget the constitution for a minute, is that not wrong to go aroung and tell everyone that you like this and this person, and that you like that person and that person

Man, that sounds just like grade 6. Lock up the preteens, fast!

its not the parade part thats bad about it, i think that gay people should not be allowed to voice there sexual preferances in public

BUT ALL PEOPLE IT SHOULS BE LIKE THAT, hetersexual too,i should have no right to go around and tell people that I LIKE PUSSY
I've got news for you buddy: every time you check out a girl, every time you go on a date with one, every time you hold her hand in public, everytime you talk about your girlfriend... All that is equivalent to you screaming off the top of your lungs that you like pussy.

Meanwhile, for many, many gays and lesbians, gay pride is the only moment in the year when they dare do those things in public. Because the rest of the time, they're afraid of being mocked, despised, fired, insulted, or even beaten by bigots.

You're screaming your sexual orientation on a daily basis. Let the gays have their day at it.

Man, that sounds just like grade 6. Lock up the preteens, fast!

i will be back tomorrow

I've got news for you buddy: every time you check out a girl, every time you go on a date with one, every time you hold her hand in public, everytime you talk about your girlfriend... All that is equivalent to you screaming off the top of your lungs that you like pussy.

Meanwhile, for many, many gays and lesbians, gay pride is the only moment in the year when they dare do those things in public. Because the rest of the time, they're afraid of being mocked, despised, fired, insulted, or even beaten by bigots.

You're screaming your sexual orientation on a daily basis. Let the gays have their day at it.

ok i dont do things like that in public, its all done in private, i would never talk to a stranger about my girlfriend, or talk about her to someone other than a friend, why? because its not there busines

ok i dont do things like that in public, its all done in private, i would never talk to a stranger about my girlfriend, or talk about her to someone other than a friend, why? because its not there businesThat's all well and good, but it's not your business to say that other people shouldn't. If they want to talk about their girlfriend/boyfriend, that's their business and their choice. Don't like hearing about it? Talk to someone else.

Problem solved.

ok i dont do things like that in public, its all done in private, i would never talk to a stranger about my girlfriend, or talk about her to someone other than a friend, why? because its not there busines
Well, good for you. 95% of the rest of the world don't hide their partner, and speak openly of their love interest, give news about their husband/wife, and generally even flirt playfully with the sex they're interested in.

Don't try to shove your behaviour on others. Especially not on gays and lesbians, who have trouble enough being accepted as they are without you going all "hush-hush, let's hide the disgusting little homos from view because they make me uncomfortable".

Besides, unless you also push for a complete, total ban on public displays of affection from straight, and an interdiction for them to speak of their significant other, you are being hypocritical and enforcing a double standard.

God, I hate double standards.

forget the constitution for a minute, is that not wrong to go aroung and tell everyone that you like this and this person, and that you like that person and that person

Being that this is indeed a question, I say no, it's not wrong. What's could possibly be wrong about sharing your love for someone else with someone else?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Sweet Jesus, I wish that was in our constitution (US)! The US govt. does the first three things all the time!:confused: :mad: :confused: :headbang:

scratch that, they do the first FOUR!:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Tory refers to either a political party in the United Kingdom, or colonists who supported the British during the American Revolution.
OOC: Just a note to be fair. Tory is also used to refer to the Progressive Conservative party in Canada. And although this guy identifies with them I want it to be known that not all of us are as radical as this guy. /OOC

I don't care if they have a parade, just as long as i don't see it, hear it, listen to people talking about it. its there lifestyle let them do what they want. God will be the judge. Just don't let it affect me.


right, but how are you going to stop your children from seeing it, and accepting it as normol
So what is normal? Hmm. It all depends from what side of things you are looking at now doesn't it? Isn't it good that the children (next generation) are accepting and understanding of gays? It's not going to traumatize them. When they grow up they'll either be attracted to men or to women or both and that will determine their sexuality not some parade they saw as a kid.

Not... really. One of the rights is acceptance by the community as a whole including religious institutions. Which country has that with gay marriage etc?
Canada does have gay marriage.

whoa whoa whoa, my church does not support gay marriage, but we are forced to do it by the law, because its considered anti-gay if you refuse to perfore the marriage. And the majority of canadians do NOT support gay marriage, the only reason we have it is because, really stupid elected a really stupid liberal government.
Yes, sadly we elected the liberals. Yes the churches technically don't condone it, but religious institutions are notorious for being hard-nosed and resistant to change. Also I don't know where you get your data, but last I checked there was a majority in favor.

What are you talking about?????
I've never heard about or seen a heterosexual parade screaming to everyone that they are straight.
I should have mentioned that in my earlier post.

Why should you have a parade celebrating a chemical imbalance?
Chemical Imbalance? Where is this information. I see no proof of this anywhere. As far as I'm concerned that was made up to make it seem that being gay is a medical condition so that religious groups can continue to say it is wrong. And that will remain my opinion until you can prove it wrong.

democracy does not work, people are dumb, and cannot make decisions on there own, much like you guys. You have a warped view on whats right and wrong since you are gay
Okay fine, whatever, people are dumb :rolleyes:, but democracy is the system you live in. Life sucks, get a f**kin helmet :upyours:.

Oh and just because I support gays, does not mean that I am one, nor does it mean that I have a warped sense of right and wrong. It is religious zealots who refuse to accept anyone who is different that start many of the worlds conflicts

but the are not standing up and declaring anything of importance, important things like abortion and death are very different. this is sexual orentation that they are standing up for... like who cares what your sexual orentation is? i sure dont
You sure seem to care. Otherwise why would you be so determined to stop gays

I find this hilarious. I doubt you know why.
I know why and I'm laughing with you.
why the hell, would i know why your close minded???
And that just makes it all the sweeter

stop looking things in black and white. Im saying that the discussion is in allowed or banned format. If you look things like having a right or not you will continuously your head. The real question that needs answer is what defines a persons limits of rights? People are stupid and want answers in yes or no's but all questions that can be answered in yes or no are wrong. It is the core thats wrong in western civilization 'to be or not to be' ....thats plain faschism. A civilized person should discuss the subtle details, thats where the devil lies.
Of course things in real life aren't as simple as black and white. But saying that someone display a part of themselves because 'it's not normal' is wrong

i was born here, my acesters didnt want there land to be pissed on by liberals, i cant leave, where would i go???
Try joining the Huterites or the Mennonites

i will only learn to hate gays more and more, since they just mock my comments, do they ever listen?? do they ever have a debate about it???
Once again, I'm not gay. Yet I'm still arguing with you. Does that mean you're coming to hate straights more and more?

We need to go back to the way it was, there is no need for ads like the coke ones, people are dieing in other countries and hear we are putting money into ads and shity mercincise
Okay once again. Join the Huterites

if a marry someone, how are we suppose not to have kids??? abortion is murder along with birth control
Then just don't have sex, since you say that touching isn't required for love that shouldn't be a problem. Or you could consider one of you getting AIDS. I hear the Vatican is going to make it okay for married couples to use condoms if one of the partners has it.

certain things you can move ahead on, such as womens rights(even though thats getting out of hand) or like peoples difference races
Excuse me? Are you one of those people who still thinks women shouldn't have jobs and should be 'good, obedient housewives'?

forget the constitution for a minute, is that not wrong to go aroung and tell everyone that you like this and this person, and that you like that person and that person
No. That's how you meet people. I say to my buddy "Hey you know, I really like that girl <insert name here>, but she's already got a boyfriend" and he says "Oh yeah. You know I have a friend who's just like her, and she's available. Maybe I could introduce you."

ok i dont do things like that in public, its all done in private, i would never talk to a stranger about my girlfriend, or talk about her to someone other than a friend, why? because its not there busines
You must have some boring dates, because you basically just said that you never take a girl anywhere. (You're not married right? You can only get so far in a relationship with rented movies in your basement)

So in summary:
I am straight, and the gay pride parades do nothing for me, but neither does it hurt me, so why should I care if they hold them? As long as they go through the proper process of obtaining the license to hold the parades I would be more concerned if we did ban them because it would infringe on their right to assemble
If you're so concerned about all of society join a reclusive group such as the Huterites.
As long as free thought is around people will be offended. So until you learn how to make all of humanity have one collective consciousness, then you're just going to have to learn to deal with other people and their views.
Just because you think it's wrong doesn't make it so. My values are different from my parents and friends, and I hope that someday if and when I have kids that their values won't automatically be the same as mine. I want them to be able to think for themselves and make logical, informed decisions.

ok i dont do things like that in public, its all done in private, i would never talk to a stranger about my girlfriend, or talk about her to someone other than a friend, why? because its not there businesWould you admit you had a girlfriend? Would you let yourself be seen with her in public?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So a state gov't or the DC Council made a law doing just that....
:p

You know who my heart bleeds for? Straight white men.

Boy do they have it hard. Why, they only control all three branches of the federal government in my country! They only dominate every major industry and branch of commerce. They only control every state government. They only are completely over-represented in every branch of the media.

And now, to add insult to injury, the faggots want to be allowed to admit that they are faggots! They want the right to exercise their constitutional right to assembly, without even getting beaten up or nothing!

Yes, my heart bleeds for the poor, oppressed straight white man.

I've got news for you buddy: every time you check out a girl, every time you go on a date with one, every time you hold her hand in public, everytime you talk about your girlfriend... All that is equivalent to you screaming off the top of your lungs that you like pussy.

Meanwhile, for many, many gays and lesbians, gay pride is the only moment in the year when they dare do those things in public. Because the rest of the time, they're afraid of being mocked, despised, fired, insulted, or even beaten by bigots.

You're screaming your sexual orientation on a daily basis. Let the gays have their day at it.


Gay Parades are funny as hell.

Grown men and women running around dressed like the sex they wish they were, prancing up and down like they have been on crack for two years.
And they're afraid of being mocked? LOL

Let them keep their parade. It suits them.

Dude, would you listen to yourself? Sheesh! If you don't hate gays, then this is a pretty screwed up thread.

I believe fully in free speech, and in the quote "I may hate what your saying, but I'll die to defend your right to say it"(that's paraphrased, the exact wording of the quote escapes me). Now, I also think that gay pride parades are perverted and bask in stereotypes. I mean what if another so-called minority did that? What if blacks decided to show their pride by reveling in racist stereotypes, doing things that narrow-minded people think they do? Well that's what the gay pride parade is. So..while I'm against it..I still can't in my heart support an out-right ban on it. Besides..outlawing it will just make it a martyrdom.

That is stupid. What about the holliday paradas. Not everyone celebrates Christmas, but yet we have those parades. You are a homophobe.

I believe fully in free speech, and in the quote "I may hate what your saying, but I'll die to defend your right to say it"(that's paraphrased, the exact wording of the quote escapes me). Now, I also think that gay pride parades are perverted and bask in stereotypes.

And I think you haven't been to enough pride parades. I've been to TONS of them, so let me put your mind at ease: I have never once seen a gay pride parade that even equalled the level of drepravity at the hetero-sex-fest of Marti Gras, let alone surpassing it. Most pride parades are colorful but actually pretty tame; they quite often include gay families and young kids, and are every bit as age-appropriate as "heterosexual" parades for families.


I mean what if another so-called minority did that? What if blacks decided to show their pride by reveling in racist stereotypes, doing things that narrow-minded people think they do?

Yeah, or what if the Irish decided to have a parade celebrating the stereotype of Irish people being a bunch of emerald-colored drunks? That would be fucked up.


Well that's what the gay pride parade is. So..while I'm against it..I still can't in my heart support an out-right ban on it. Besides..outlawing it will just make it a martyrdom.
Good enough, I guess. You can hold whatever misconceptions you like, as long as you don't believe your opinions constitute grounds for denying other people their rights. :)

Gay Parades are funny as hell.

Grown men and women running around dressed like the sex they wish they were, prancing up and down like they have been on crack for two years.
And they're afraid of being mocked? LOL

Let them keep their parade. It suits them.
You obviously have never seen a gay pride parade. Let me enlighten you.

Gay Pride parades do not only comprise what you see of them in the media. There are more to them than Drag Queens and bears in leather. The vast majority of people who march in them are your run-of-the-mill, average joe/jane types. Lots of ordinary folk doing volunteer work in nonprofit organisations, ordinary folks working for equal rights, ordinary folks just happy to be there and feel like they can hold hands with their significant other without fear of being beaten up.

Of course, us ordinary folks don't make frontpage news. The drag queens, bears, and half-naked ones do. That doesn't mean all of us dance and prance on allegoric cars. And that doesn't mean that those of us who prance half-naked on allegoric cars are doing anything wrong, either.

Besides, your comment about "being dressed up like the sex they wish they were" really shows how ignorant you are on the subject of sexual diversity. While there are transgendered people in Gay Pride, I'm pretty certain those you refer to are Drag Queens. For your information, Drag Queens dress like women for show, just like actors. They dress up outrageously, as well. Again, it's for the show. I know many men who have dressed up as a Drag Queen, and none of them wish they were a woman.

Yeah, or what if the Irish decided to have a parade celebrating the stereotype of Irish people being a bunch of emerald-colored drunks? That would be fucked up.

*rolls*

I wonder what an Irish Gay Pride would look like? :p

*rolls*

I wonder what an Irish Gay Pride would look like? :p
I've been to a couple, actually. Because of the whole Roman Catholic thing going on, a lot of "traditional" St. Pat's parades will not allow gay Irish men and women to participate. This has led many of them to form their own St. Pat's Day parades, which are gay-friendly.

They pretty much are the same as any other St. Pat's Day parades, they just have a few rainbows thrown in with the green clovers. The one that is held near my parents' house is referred to unofficially as the Lucky Charm's parade.

I've been to a couple, actually. Because of the whole Roman Catholic thing going on, a lot of "traditional" St. Pat's parades will not allow gay Irish men and women to participate. This has led many of them to form their own St. Pat's Day parades, which are gay-friendly.

They pretty much are the same as any other St. Pat's Day parades, they just have a few rainbows thrown in with the green clovers. The one that is held near my parents' house is referred to unofficially as the Lucky Charm's parade.
Lucky Charm Parade? I find that extremely funny. Too bad they can't take the name officially... they'd probably get sued :p

I say we ban this thread!! Since I have no interest in it and it has no point, it should be deleted and never referred to again! All people replying to this thread henceforth shall be prosecuted (or persecuted if that's your idea of a good time) to the fullest extent of the law.

Read = :mp5:

Gay parades annoying you? Perhaps Heterosexual displays of affection nauseate you? Dancing...oh my gosh no.....

Wait there may be an answer, just follow these simple steps......

Dress all your lady folks in big long sheets
Hide your men folks behind beards, under strange hats and make them wear baggy clothes to hide any unsightly gender specific bulges
Best ban music too, may give people amorous thoughts..or even encourage them to dance
Ban half the nations sex from appearing outdoors in public and, better still, don't educate them in case they have thoughts of their own.
Stone to death or amputate bits of anyone who even begins to look like getting jiggy.

There, that should prevent any spontaneous parade events....although lets face it, it may be just too realistic to happen in practice...........

Gay parades annoying you? Perhaps Heterosexual displays of affection nauseate you? Dancing...oh my gosh no.....

Wait there may be an answer, just follow these simple steps......

Dress all your lady folks in big long sheets
Hide your men folks behind beards, under strange hats and make them wear baggy clothes to hide any unsightly gender specific bulges
Best ban music too, may give people amorous thoughts..or even encourage them to dance
Ban half the nations sex from appearing outdoors in public and, better still, don't educate them in case they have thoughts of their own.
Stone to death or amputate bits of anyone who even begins to look like getting jiggy.

There, that should prevent any spontaneous parade events....although lets face it, it may be just too realistic to happen in practice...........

This religion of yours intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to it. I shall call it...


The Holy Cult Of Beards

Yes yes ban the gays.
Yes yes ban the gays.

“We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it!!”

*snip*


Well, the obvious thing is, you are not used to it yet. If you are that disturbed by a parade that you are not even required to attend, then homosexuality is quite clearly something that you still feel is somehow wrong. Do you get that upset at the Puerto Rican Day parade? I would guess not (although I could be wrong, you might just be a parade-o-phobe).

Would you have felt the same way about the marches in the 60's for racial equality? How about the earlier women's sufferage marches?

Until the prevailing attitude IS "We're used to it neighbors, no problem, and here are your equal rights" the parade is an important, unifying and supportive event. And once equal rights and equal treatement are a fact, it will just be a day of celebration like any other.

Yes yes ban the gays.
Yes yes ban the gays.

Yes yes ban the neocons
Yes yes ban the neocons


Damn. Doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

Good Allah! This things still going on... Please end it.

I've compiled the basics of what RTS has said, just so we can see the irony in it, and he'll go "damn i have been complete a dumbass facist" (note the lack of grammer).
So here it is:
_________________________________________
1. Nobody should be allowed to show any form of affection in any public place whatsoever because I don't like seeing it because my religion tells me not to and I do whatever an old book says.

2. Nobody has the right to demonstrate they're personal conditions/traits/beliefs/or anything else in public. This means all you homeless people, street preformers, marching bands, parades, demonstrations, and anyone that isn't completely covered has to move off the streets and do whatever they were doing on a private road. On second thought, someone would find covered people offensive, so lets ban them too.

3. My children and my children's children will share all my personal beliefs, opinions, and will not form any new ideas, concepts, or contribute anything to the progress of society, because I say so.

4. I've been stuck in a box all throughout the 20th century and don't know any positive responses to contradictory ideals.

___________________________________________

Now I understand RTS's overall idea, and thats one of a utopia. But what he doesn't understand is that you can't just throw an entire society into a utopia right away unless you give all the people lombotomys. Banning things will only get us farther from his ideals (however they may end up on the political spectrum), so RTS, take a deep breath, click the reply button, and type up an essay on your entire plan for what you think the world should be like and how you'd get it there. Then we'd be getting somewhere.

I thought this thread died yesterday when we remembered that free speech thingy.

I'm still waiting for Red Tory States to come back and respond to this. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10943869&postcount=296)
Either he'll actually come up with something relevant (unlikely) or he'll give me one last bit of amusement.

i agree.
i don't care if you are gay or not, and i don't want to know.
go ahead, get married, adopt a kid, just don't have some riot on the streets telling everyone how you got f*cked up the ass last nice by your bf.
That's something you keep to yourself.

Heterosexuals don't do it, so why should you.


Heterosexuals do do it. I oughta know. I'm an adamant heterosexual and I do it.

you must love insulting me for having dyslexia, and you think that it is okay to bash someone who suffers from it???

IRONY


Spellchecker. Get one.

Irony. Look it up.

ps - while it is obvious that you can't, learn to laugh at your own foibles. Life becomes a lot easier

hahahahaha, i am not part of the conservitive party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!!!!

Here's a FACT or two. I am canadian. There is a conservative party in Canada. They are also known as the Tories as being indicative of their descent from British rule. If you are a Tory in Canada as you claim, then you are a member of the conservative party. I am beginning to suspect that you are neither from Canada nor are you a Tory.

As a Canadian, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone reading this thread for my compatriots obvious intolerance and insensitivity. The opinions expressed by Red Tory States is far from indicative of the attitudes that predominate a large portion of the country.

whoa whoa whoa, my church does not support gay marriage, but we are forced to do it by the law, because its considered anti-gay if you refuse to perfore the marriage. And the majority of canadians do NOT support gay marriage, the only reason we have it is because, really stupid elected a really stupid liberal government.


You realize of course that the Liberals aren't currently in power? The Tories are.

democracy does not work, people are dumb, and cannot make decisions on there own, much like you guys. You have a warped view on whats right and wrong since you are gay


You just forfeited any claim to being rational or taken seriously.

whoa, remember in canada, the government represents where they will get the most votes, like in the cities, because in canada there is a election riding for every so many people... so no, the people in rural areas are not represented

Democracy works as a majority rule situation. roughly 50% of canadians live in about 10% of the land mass (southern Ontario and southern Quebec). The MAJORITY vote in the ruling party. The rural areas have representation. It is not as strong of a voice because it accounts for a much smaller portion of the populace.

and when i mean leave it inside you, dont actaually do that, go get a date but dont make out in public or just for no aparent cause touch each other


Why? What are you afraid of?

but the are not standing up and declaring anything of importance, important things like abortion and death are very different. this is sexual orentation that they are standing up for... like who cares what your sexual orentation is? i sure dont

Then why make an issue of it?

love doesnt involve touching

I feel sorry for you.

and they would be on every street corner, hard to stop your children from seeing it to... children are young, and have a strange interpretation on what is good and bad, they would be scared from things such as nudit in public and in private


Why would you wish to shelter your children from the beauty that is the human form and all forms of love of said form?

somebody said that being gay is a trait. wrong. it is a choice and a lifestyle. and the Bible says it is wrong and that is what i believe. its supposed to be man and woman, not man, man or woman woman.


That's true. The bible does say that. The bible also says to turn the other cheek. Deal with your trauma, move on with your life.

i am religious, it is against my religion to be gay. But that does not mean i hate them, i just disagree when they got into public and tell everyone what their sexual orientation is
TURN THE OTHER CHEEK

you shouldnt go to people and say that they are wrong just because they follow that book, as long as there religion doesnt hurt anyone ...

WHO CARES???

As long as their parade doesn't hurt anyone, then who cares?

PS-Crusades, witch trials, the holocaust, need I continue?

Even platonic and familial love involves a certain amount of touching, just not sexual touching. Hugging someone is a sign you care, kissing on the cheek is a sign you care. Those deeper kisses, the hand holding, the sexual touching is one thing that separates romantic love from any other kind. If you didn't do that, the other person would be no more than a friend, not that there's anything wrong with having friends.

That being said, i don't want to see heterosexual or homosexual couples having sex near a busy intersection or something where everyone can watch. I think that certain touching is better left for more private moments, but i have no problem with hand-holding or kissing in public, whether gay or straight.

Banning public gatherings is so 1930s Deutschland.
Get with the times. ;)

mocking my comments will only make it worse


What? Your inanity? We can only hope....

its not the freedom of speech, the parade is a previlge not a right


Right to peacable assembly

i will only learn to hate gays more and more, since they just mock my comments, do they ever listen?? do they ever have a debate about it???


But you said that you don't hate them.

We (and not all of us are gay) are trying to have a debate. You are failing at having an original or usefulk thought of your own, simply spitting out mindless dogma and hatred.

“We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it!!”

Get used to what??? You’re gay. Good for you! Now just tell me, what does it have to do with me??? I don’t care if someone is gay. I’m glad for your lifestyle but I don’t care!

I could have a straight pride parade. That way everyone can know my sexual orintation, and I can force them to acknowledge it even though it has abousulutly nothing to do with them.

I DO NOT HATE GAYS, I just think that society has gone way too far. It does not matter what sexual orientation you are, as long as you keap it inside you, no one has to know.

I say we ban the gay pride parade, and any other event dealing with sexual orintations in public. Weddings are okay because there private.

THINK ABOUT WHAT I JUST SAID!!!!!! I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!!!!

most pointless thread ever.

All you people are telling me to stop posting my opions because i am talking about getting ride of the freedom of speech for sexuality, but its so similar i am just voiceing my opion


And you still don't get the irony...

Just for the record, not all of us who support same sex marriages, gay pride parades, etc. are gay. I'm straight as a board, but i believe in the equality of all people. Gay people are human just like the rest of us, they deserve the same rights.

o, i would rather move to tuvalu, but they treat gays a little too extreme

gays are executed in tuvalu


So go there...

Please....

Get Packing....

The Plane's Ready....

Gone yet?

i am not close minded, i do not have strick political beliefs that stay the same, my views do change, i used to be a strong supporter of the death penality, but i saw other views to the argument


Which runs completely contrary to your previous statement about following the teachings of your ancestors as closely as possible.

forget the constitution for a minute, is that not wrong to go aroung and tell everyone that you like this and this person, and that you like that person and that person


Why would it be wrong? If I felt strongly for someone, I would want the world to know.

:confused: :eek:

If that guy were gay, he'd be blowing up Budweiser advertisements. I just had that image and had to share it.

Here's a FACT or two. I am canadian. There is a conservative party in Canada. They are also known as the Tories as being indicative of their descent from British rule. If you are a Tory in Canada as you claim, then you are a member of the conservative party. I am beginning to suspect that you are neither from Canada nor are you a Tory.

As a Canadian, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone reading this thread for my compatriots obvious intolerance and insensitivity. The opinions expressed by Red Tory States is far from indicative of the attitudes that predominate a large portion of the country.
Agreed, I am also Canadian and I also wish to apologize for for this individuals view points and point out that he is in the small minority of people who still live in the past.

And you still don't get the irony...
Gotta love that irony. When he finally does get it maybe he'll shut up to try and help his position, but somehow I have a feeling that hell will freeze over before that happens

RTS, no offence intended but if you're serious, please win yourself a Darwin Award.
If you're not being serious then:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!!!

Even platonic and familial love involves a certain amount of touching, just not sexual touching. Hugging someone is a sign you care, kissing on the cheek is a sign you care. Those deeper kisses, the hand holding, the sexual touching is one thing that separates romantic love from any other kind. If you didn't do that, the other person would be no more than a friend, not that there's anything wrong with having friends.

That being said, i don't want to see heterosexual or homosexual couples having sex near a busy intersection or something where everyone can watch. I think that certain touching is better left for more private moments, but i have no problem with hand-holding or kissing in public, whether gay or straight.

I have freinds I hold hands with. to my mind the only difference between friendships and romantic relationships is whether I screw them. and I dont mind seeing people having sex in public as long as they are attractive and aged between 16 and 25.

RTS, no offence intended but if you're serious, please win yourself a Darwin Award.
If you're not being serious then:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!!!
Since he seems to be a religious zealot then I doubt he believes in Darwin or in the Darwin Awards, but right idea there.

You obviously have never seen a gay pride parade. Let me enlighten you.

Gay Pride parades do not only comprise what you see of them in the media. There are more to them than Drag Queens and bears in leather. The vast majority of people who march in them are your run-of-the-mill, average joe/jane types. Lots of ordinary folk doing volunteer work in nonprofit organisations, ordinary folks working for equal rights, ordinary folks just happy to be there and feel like they can hold hands with their significant other without fear of being beaten up.

Of course, us ordinary folks don't make frontpage news. The drag queens, bears, and half-naked ones do. That doesn't mean all of us dance and prance on allegoric cars. And that doesn't mean that those of us who prance half-naked on allegoric cars are doing anything wrong, either.

Besides, your comment about "being dressed up like the sex they wish they were" really shows how ignorant you are on the subject of sexual diversity. While there are transgendered people in Gay Pride, I'm pretty certain those you refer to are Drag Queens. For your information, Drag Queens dress like women for show, just like actors. They dress up outrageously, as well. Again, it's for the show. I know many men who have dressed up as a Drag Queen, and none of them wish they were a woman.All i know is what i see around me. Women with facial hair<<<<LOL
and men prancing around with high voices and boneless hands that are always bending.

Sometimes i wonder if they are just trying to annoy everyone or just make all straight people sick.

Two men or women want to hold hands or kiss i have no problem at all. It's the other stuff that makes me shake my head.

All i know is what i see around me. Women with facial hair<<<<LOL
and men prancing around with high voices and boneless hands that are always bending.

Sometimes i wonder if they are just trying to annoy everyone or just make all straight people sick.

Two men or women want to hold hands or kiss i have no problem at all. It's the other stuff that makes me shake my head.

so true

All i know is what i see around me. Women with facial hair<<<<LOL
and men prancing around with high voices and boneless hands that are always bending.

Sometimes i wonder if they are just trying to annoy everyone or just make all straight people sick.

Two men or women want to hold hands or kiss i have no problem at all. It's the other stuff that makes me shake my head.

It's actually people like you who piss me off so much more than any gay or lesbian people I've ever met. Most gays and lesbians are extremely polite, and kind to everyone.

Ignorance doesn't get gay-straight relations anywhere. And don't just say "I hate gays", because if you actually talked to some then you might change your mind.

I say - let them have their parades, it's their lives.

<shaking head>

What a sad wreck of a life you both must lead to be offended or bothered by gay pride parades.

So we're good enough to be your hairdressers, interior decorators and other less "masculine" pursuits, but we're not good enough to be your bloody equals?

If you don't like gay pride parades then don't go to them, if you want to have a "straight" pride parade, go right ahead, it's your nickel. I promise not to laugh at your stereotypes, like you make fun of our stereotypes.

Or is it something deeper gentlemen? Seeing a bunch of gay men makes you feel all ooky inside? Unresolved issues in your lives? Not secure in your sexuality, even?

Deal with it.

Chemical Imbalance? Where is this information. I see no proof of this anywhere. As far as I'm concerned that was made up to make it seem that being gay is a medical condition so that religious groups can continue to say it is wrong. And that will remain my opinion until you can prove it wrong.[/LIST]

being gay is due to parents doing drugs (mental disfunction) and/or when a child is sexual harrased at a young age (emotional problem). It is not natural for people to be gay. Don't Belive Me??? I got all this info from the university of amsterdam

It's actually people like you who piss me off so much more than any gay or lesbian people I've ever met. Most gays and lesbians are extremely polite, and kind to everyone.

Ignorance doesn't get gay-straight relations anywhere. And don't just say "I hate gays", because if you actually talked to some then you might change your mind.

I say - let them have their parades, it's their lives.

i have talked to gays before and all of them are not polite

i have talked to gays before and all of them are not polite

And were you rude to them because of their sexuality before you spoke to them?

“We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it!!”

Get used to what??? You’re gay. Good for you! Now just tell me, what does it have to do with me??? I don’t care if someone is gay. I’m glad for your lifestyle but I don’t care!

I could have a straight pride parade. That way everyone can know my sexual orintation, and I can force them to acknowledge it even though it has abousulutly nothing to do with them.

I DO NOT HATE GAYS, I just think that society has gone way too far. It does not matter what sexual orientation you are, as long as you keap it inside you, no one has to know.

I say we ban the gay pride parade, and any other event dealing with sexual orintations in public. Weddings are okay because there private.

THINK ABOUT WHAT I JUST SAID!!!!!! I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!!!!

At one point in your life, people are going to learn something about you in public. I'm guessing you also don't support bumper stickers, shirts with words on them, campaign posters etc?

being gay is due to parents doing drugs (mental disfunction) and/or when a child is sexual harrased at a young age (emotional problem). It is not natural for people to be gay. Don't Belive Me??? I got all this info from the university of amsterdam

Dear god, this is so funny!

Okay, first, I want to see proper academic citations for these pieces of crap. Secondly, doing drugs does not cause someone to become gay (Nature or Nurture does), and neither does sexual harrassment (Ridiculous statement). It is natural to be a homosexual - it has even been stated that there are some homosexual animals in nature. There is nothing inherently wrong with being homosexual.

<shaking head>

What a sad wreck of a life you both must lead to be offended or bothered by gay pride parades.

So we're good enough to be your hairdressers, interior decorators and other less "masculine" pursuits, but we're not good enough to be your bloody equals?

If you don't like gay pride parades then don't go to them, if you want to have a "straight" pride parade, go right ahead, it's your nickel. I promise not to laugh at your stereotypes, like you make fun of our stereotypes.

Or is it something deeper gentlemen? Seeing a bunch of gay men makes you feel all ooky inside? Unresolved issues in your lives? Not secure in your sexuality, even?

Deal with it.

being gay is a problem go see a doctor and/or psychiatrist

And were you rude to them because of their sexuality before you spoke to them?

no

At one point in your life, people are going to learn something about you in public. I'm guessing you also don't support bumper stickers, shirts with words on them, campaign posters etc?

no, i hate all that junk

Dear god, this is so funny!

Okay, first, I want to see proper academic citations for these pieces of crap. Secondly, doing drugs does not cause someone to become gay (Nature or Nurture does), and neither does sexual harrassment (Ridiculous statement). It is natural to be a homosexual - it has even been stated that there are some homosexual animals in nature. There is nothing inherently wrong with being homosexual.

Bravo!

no

Hmm well fair enough, there are probably some unfriendly people in every group, all of the gays and lesbians I've ever met were extremely polite and kind.

Dear god, this is so funny!

Okay, first, I want to see proper academic citations for these pieces of crap. Secondly, doing drugs does not cause someone to become gay (Nature or Nurture does), and neither does sexual harrassment (Ridiculous statement). It is natural to be a homosexual - it has even been stated that there are some homosexual animals in nature. There is nothing inherently wrong with being homosexual.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=23532&name=Smoking+mothers+increase+chance+of+lesbian+baby

no thats right

Hmm well fair enough, there are probably some unfriendly people in every group, all of the gays and lesbians I've ever met were extremely polite and kind.

they all have issues, wheater it be mental and/or emotional

they all have issues, wheater it be mental and/or emotional

That's a load of crap. There are plenty of gays that are perfectly sane and emotionally healthy.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=23532&name=Smoking+mothers+increase+chance+of+lesbian+baby

no thats right

...

A single Dutch article automatically proves that all homosexuals are created by drugs?


Bullshit.


That article stated that research had said there was a possibility that smoking created lesbian babies. There doesn't seem to be much evidence, and that is just one scientist. Have you any more 'Proof'?

All i know is what i see around me. Women with facial hair<<<<LOL
and men prancing around with high voices and boneless hands that are always bending.

Sometimes i wonder if they are just trying to annoy everyone or just make all straight people sick.

Two men or women want to hold hands or kiss i have no problem at all. It's the other stuff that makes me shake my head.

Because they look or act differently than you?

Do you truly feel that such a stance is justified?

being gay is due to parents doing drugs (mental disfunction) and/or when a child is sexual harrased at a young age (emotional problem). It is not natural for people to be gay. Don't Belive Me??? I got all this info from the university of amsterdam

Directly quote or link to your source. If you are incapable of doing such so that we may verify your claims to validity then don't bother spouting them in the future.

Until such a time as you are capable to back your claims, you will find it difficult to convince anyone with half of a brain cell left in their head of the veracity of your words.

they all have issues, wheater it be mental and/or emotional
No, we really don't. All straight people, on the other hand?

See, I can do bullshit generalisation too.

being gay is a problem go see a doctor and/or psychiatrist


Based on the criteria of whom?

No, we really don't. All straight people, on the other hand?

See, I can do bullshit generalisation too.

I wouldn't strain his brain with such a generalisation. Poor bigot might get his mental abilities overstrained thinking for once...

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=23532&name=Smoking+mothers+increase+chance+of+lesbian+baby

no thats right

So the findings of a single doctor that had his work published in a student magazine is the best you can come up with?

That's sad. That's really really sad.

You can find dozens of articles in respected papers around the globe, written by highly regarded scientists about time travel and how it will soon be possible, and all you have to go on for your hair-brained opinion is an article from a student publication.

Wow...just...wow.

they all have issues, wheater it be mental and/or emotional


None of which, I imagine, are anywhere near as severe as those that you yourself are demonstrating.

No, we really don't. All straight people, on the other hand?

See, I can do bullshit generalisation too.


As a proud straight male, I whole heartedly agree. I, myself, have some severe emotional issues, some of them borderline crippling. And yet, I still feel no desire to trod all over the rights of a specific group because they are different than myself.

I wouldn't strain his brain with such a generalisation. Poor bigot might get his mental abilities overstrained thinking for once...

I wouldn't count on it actually making him think. I'm not sure I'd put money on his capacity for it...

As a proud straight male, I whole heartedly agree. I, myself, have some severe emotional issues, some of them borderline crippling. And yet, I still feel no desire to trod all over the rights of a specific group because they are different than myself.
Wow, an overlap, neither do I as a gay male. See, some people have this thing called normalcy RTS, and this normalcy does not make homosexuality a psychiatric problem.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So instead we should focus on things that are more important, no?

"Give me liberty or give me death" or "Homeland Security".

being gay is a problem go see a doctor and/or psychiatrist

<chuckle>

No...I don't have the problem, you do.

For the record, I've never abused drugs nor was I sexually harassed as a child. I had a very middle-class, conservative upbringing. Boringly normal.

Other than the normal problems associated with stress and living in modern times, and needing to have a Psychiatric evaluation for my security clearance in the US Air Force (the psych eval is repeated every year, btw), I've had no need of psychiatric treatment.

You're just making up excuses because of your obvious lack of maturity. On the subject of human sexuality you lack even rudimentary knowledge of what is "normal" and what is not.

I am not about to change my life based on the opinion of an ignoramus.

In case you missed that, I was referring to you.

I am not gay because some pseudo-scientist publishes a study from the University of Amsterdam saying you BECOME gay if you are sexually abused as a child or abused drugs. I'm gay because I was born that way.

If you don't like it, too bad.

you’re gay. Good for you!
they all have issues, wheater it be mental and/or emotional
True feelings always seem to escape in these kinds of thread.

I'm gay because I was born that way.


What makes you so certain? I doubt you were born being sexually attracted to members of the same sex.

What makes you so certain? I doubt you were born being sexually attracted to members of the same sex.
I doubt you were born with an attraction to members of the oppposite sex but you were still born (presumably) straight.

I doubt you were born with an attraction to members of the oppposite sex but you were still born (presumably) straight.

Why is that being presumed at all? Sexual attraction doesn't factor into human development until puberty, no? And many things besides genetics influence puberty. I think it's incorrect to assume a baby is either homo- or hetero-sexual.

Why is that being presumed at all? Sexual attraction doesn't factor into human development until puberty, no? And many things besides genetics influence puberty. I think it's incorrect to assume a baby is either homo- or hetero-sexual.
But if sexuality is genetic, then someone's future orientation is already set at conception.

Why is that being presumed at all? Sexual attraction doesn't factor into human development until puberty, no? And many things besides genetics influence puberty. I think it's incorrect to assume a baby is either homo- or hetero-sexual.
The biological factors that determine its later sexuality are still there at birth, and in fact in the womb, research is heavily suggesting, if not actually in the genetic makeup; so while it may not be manifest the sexuality is there.

The presumption was made based on the fact that the majority of people are heterosexual, and on the post you made...

But if sexuality is genetic, then someone's future orientation is already set at conception.

I think its not at all clear that sexual persuasion is purely genetic.

I think its not at all clear that sexual persuasion is purely genetic.
There is evidence of a strong genetic and prebirth impact however.

What makes you so certain? I doubt you were born being sexually attracted to members of the same sex.

<sigh>

Why must we go in circles over this?

If it were a choice...something I could really choose, what choice do you think I would have made? Hmm? You tell me. If I were straight, having two Masters degrees, a 22.5 year military career and the subsequent retirement would garner me a lot of personal and professional respect.

Instead, my accomplishments are marginalized and I am looked upon as a FREAK. Who ever heard of a gay male Lt. Colonel? Who ever heard of gay male Generals? Two guys retired from the military (a Major General and a Brigadier General, btw) and at their retirement ceremonies FINALLY came out of the closet after over THIRTY YEARS of hiding it from their professional military colleagues, showed up with their life partners.

If it were a choice I would be straight, you moron. But it's not, so I'm gay and actually comfortable with it. My world would be great except for uneducated nitwits like you who have NO PERSPECTIVE on the situation.

There is evidence of a strong genetic and prebirth impact however.

No doubt, but there is also evidence of environmental and developmental factors as well. So it is not necessarily true to assume that everyone is born either homo/hetero and that's that.

If it were a choice...something I could really choose, what choice do you think I would have made?

I didn't say it was a conscious choice.


If it were a choice I would be straight, you moron.

Strawman and ad hominem.

But it's not, so I'm gay and actually comfortable with it. My world would be great except for uneducated nitwits like you who have NO PERSPECTIVE on the situation.

:rolleyes:

you must love insulting me for having dyslexia, and you think that it is okay to bash someone who suffers from it???

IRONY

How come everyone on the internet who can't spell or use grammar has to say they're dyslexic? There seems to be a lot of dyslexia going around. I hope it's not contagious. Not that I'll probably catch it, because it seems to affect mostly right-wing homophobes.

It's like people who claim they're allergic to cats and dogs. When I was growing up in Saskatchewan, nobody had these allergies. I think these supposed allergies are mostly psychosomatic. People just don't want to admit they don't like animals because they're afraid people will think they're horrible people -- which they probably are. Instead, they're "allergic". Likewise, I'm sure you just don't like spelling and grammar, and you don't want to admit it because we'll think you're an illiterate. So you're somehow "dyslexic".

BTW, if you're a member of the Conservative party of Canada, you're not a Tory. I'm a Tory, from the old Progressive Conservative party, which I joined back in 1974. I was at the convention in 1976 that chose Joe Clark as leader, and he's always been my guy politically. He's also a Tory. We real Tories get very insulted when people refer to neocons as Tories, especially after the hostile takeover of our party by the Reform pinheads.

We don't even particularly like neocons to be called "conservative" because we think the neocons have gotten the word "conservative" all dirty. If you want to know what a real conservative is, look at Benjamin Disraeli or David Orchard, not Spurious George in the White House, not Pat Buchanan, not Preston Manning, and certainly not Stephen Fucking Harper.

Oh, and I'm also gay, so eat shit.

No doubt, but there is also evidence of environmental and developmental factors as well. So it is not necessarily true to assume that everyone is born either homo/hetero and that's that.
There's a lot less evidence of such environmental factors however; it seems to be to greatest extent prebirth effects on the brain.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=23532&name=Smoking+mothers+increase+chance+of+lesbian+baby

no thats right

Could anyone check if ancient Greeks smoked Marlboro lights?... Maybe that could explain their "tendencies".

they all have issues, wheater it be mental and/or emotional

ROFL, first AIDS was a gay disease. Now that this belief has been proven absurd, you have to find new mud to throw. So now all gays have mental or emotional issues...

Ever thought of talking about your hatred towards gay people to a psychoanalyst? I'm starting to wander if you were the one who was abused as a child, to justify such hatred. Whatever it is, you do have some issues to resolve...

whoa whoa whoa, my church does not support gay marriage, but we are forced to do it by the law, because its considered anti-gay if you refuse to perfore the marriage.

No, you're wrong. The equal marriage act states that churches are not obliged to perform gay marriages if doing so is against their religion. The law refers only to civil marriages.

And the majority of canadians do NOT support gay marriage, the only reason we have it is because, really stupid elected a really stupid liberal government.

You're wrong again about the majority of Canadians. And the reason we have the law is that the Supreme Court deemed it unconstitutional to exclude gays from marriage. All exclusionary laws are unconstitutional. Any attempt by Parliament to reverse the law will be laughed out of court.

I didn't say it was a conscious choice.

All choices are conscious. Duh. That's what makes them choices.

You're wrong again about the majority of Canadians. And the reason we have the law is that the Supreme Court deemed it unconstitutional to exclude gays from marriage. All exclusionary laws are unconstitutional. Any attempt by Parliament to reverse the law will be laughed out of court.
And hopefully out of the Parliament and those who proposed it will swiftly follow at the next election... I wish I could say the same for the centre of the Commonwealth...

All choices are conscious. Duh. That's what makes them choices.

First, I didn't even mean to say that it was a "choice" of any kind. I simply question the concept of genetic determinism.

Second, choose simply means selection from various alternatives. It doesn't necessitate consciousness or even sentience.

First, I didn't even mean to say that it was a "choice" of any kind. I simply question the concept of genetic determinism.
And there are more than genetic factors that are relevant even before the birth.

And there are more than genetic factors that are relevant even before the birth.

And there are more than pre-birth factors in sexuality.

Why is this concept so offensive to some here?

And there are more than pre-birth factors in sexuality.

Why is this concept so offensive to some here?
Because its so often been demonstrated to be 90% bollocks in reference to homosexuality, that's why!

And there are more than pre-birth factors in sexuality.

Why is this concept so offensive to some here?
People tend to filter others into "us" and "them" groups based on what they post. By posting things that sound like one of "them" (in this case, homophobes), you are assumed to be one of "them".

Because its so often been demonstrated to be 90% bollocks in reference to homosexuality, that's why!

So demonstrate it. For that matter, show how there is more evidence one way or the other. And then show how this means there is no argument or need for further research since the question has been solved.

But really, the fact is no one can truly say they were born gay or straight, because they didn't have sexual attractions of any sort until later in life.

Personally, I was born with a strong preference for B or C size breasts. THIS IS FACT YOU CANNOT DENY! ;)

People tend to filter others into "us" and "them" groups based on what they post. By posting things that sound like one of "them" (in this case, homophobes), you are assumed to be one of "them".

Sheesh!

Well they should know, it's not us versus them, it's me versus everybody else. :)

Sheesh!

Well they should know, it's not us versus them, it's me versus everybody else. :)
So, the "them" would just be the set {Santa Barbara}.

So, the "them" would just be the set {Santa Barbara}.

"us" from my perspective.

But yes. It's all a plot against me, that's what it is.

if public nudists were just walking around, that would be intruding in my personal space, i personaly beleve that is wrong, if they want to walk around in there home naked, they can go ahead

Your "personal space" is that area defined by the tips of your outstretched fingers, that is to say, about one metre on all sides of you. It does not include things that your eye happens to land on outside that space. You don't like it, don't look. And you have no right to have your comments taken seriously re things happening outside your limited personal space, especially if you want to act like the Taleban.

Personally, I'm glad it's legal in Ontario for women to walk around topless anywhere that men can. Most of them don't really want to, either because of innate modesty or because they don't want a bunch of greasy, slobbering straight guys checking out their goods, leering at them and making sexual comments. Or else they don't do it for the same reason a lot of men don't walk around shirtless either -- they have ugly bodies. What's important is that they are legally permitted to do so because in every way women are the legal equal of men.

If homosexuality is genetic;

and if we, we being society in general (and not inclusive of myself), continue increasing tolerance of homosexuality;

then it is easily projectable that therefore homosexuality shall cease to be a part of the human genome within three generations. Therefore homosexuality is, in fact, a short-lived mutation promoted by ill-will of those not carrying the gene and (presumably through evolutionary social forces) repression of openness leading to the continuation of the gene through unwilling / unhappy male-female couplings.

IF that is the case - being rooted in homosexuality being genetic and not simply a matter of decisive choice based on predisposition through wide-social and local-social pressures and/or influences - then we can therefore postulate that homosexuality is not evolutionarily worthwhile.

Society BEING increasingly pro-scientific in it's analysis of morality and ethical reasoning;

and being widely persuaded of the merits of evolutionary theory;

is therefore easily projected to be likely to decide that homosexuality WAS (since it is genetic and an inherantly slow) a dead-end evolutionary corridor that was essentially irrelevent beyond posing intriguing social questions.

* * *

And yet the gay community, as far as I've seen, supports the genetics-driven model. Bizarre. You guys want to be extinct? o.O

Except for a few logical flaws; starting with it obviously being a recessive allele so its being carried by straight people anyway, rendering the argument a) moot and b) genetically false.

o, i would rather move to tuvalu, but they treat gays a little too extreme

gays are executed in tuvalu

Gays are not executed in Tuvalu. I don't know where you got that from.

How come everyone on the internet who can't spell or use grammar has to say they're dyslexic? There seems to be a lot of dyslexia going around. I hope it's not contagious. Not that I'll probably catch it, because it seems to affect mostly right-wing homophobes.

It's like people who claim they're allergic to cats and dogs. When I was growing up in Saskatchewan, nobody had these allergies. I think these supposed allergies are mostly psychosomatic. People just don't want to admit they don't like animals because they're afraid people will think they're horrible people -- which they probably are. Instead, they're "allergic". Likewise, I'm sure you just don't like spelling and grammar, and you don't want to admit it because we'll think you're an illiterate. So you're somehow "dyslexic".

so doctors and the schoolboard just decided to tell my parents that i was dyslexic just for the hell of it???

BTW, if you're a member of the Conservative party of Canada, you're not a Tory. I'm a Tory, from the old Progressive Conservative party, which I joined back in 1974. I was at the convention in 1976 that chose Joe Clark as leader, and he's always been my guy politically. He's also a Tory. We real Tories get very insulted when people refer to neocons as Tories, especially after the hostile takeover of our party by the Reform pinheads.

We don't even particularly like neocons to be called "conservative" because we think the neocons have gotten the word "conservative" all dirty. If you want to know what a real conservative is, look at Benjamin Disraeli or David Orchard, not Spurious George in the White House, not Pat Buchanan, not Preston Manning, and certainly not Stephen Fucking Harper.

okay, i am a tory, but i never said that i was a member of the conservitive party of canada, me too hate the reform party and how the toke over the PC party. i am a member of the PC party that was re-started by tories! So where did you get that i was a member of the conservitive party??? I consider myself i real tory unlike you, i base my beliefs on macdonald and definbaker, not joe clark ( a pm that was weak). so dont jump to conclusions, i am tried of telling people this.

Oh, and I'm also gay, so eat shit.

a traditional tory would never be a homo

I'd support banning the gay pride parade only if all other parades were also banned. Parades mean only one thing: TRAFFIC.

Acquictic & Red Tory: What is (was) your opinion of Brian Mulroney?

Acquictic & Red Tory: What is (was) your opinion of Brian Mulroney?

asshole

Except for a few logical flaws; starting with it obviously being a recessive allele so its being carried by straight people anyway, rendering the argument a) moot and b) genetically false.

...

Since when did they locate specific genes governing sexuality? And I don't mean some vague study carried out that indicates a group of genes potentially; I mean active, asserted, thoroughly tested location.

For that matter, name a single validated identification of any governing genetic material related to personality traits? (Assuming homosexuality is a 'trait' and not a 'choice'.)

Hrm?

Personally, I suspect that the attempts to prove that sexuality is in fact genetically rooted represents efforts at what pyschologists (good grief, did I just reference psychology?) call 'validation'.

Not to say that any one particular person requires that validation (generalisations like that suck when applied to individuals), but more of a social phenomena. Any group which perceives itself to be 'outside' of another group it desires to 'belong' to will strive to unify itself with that group by finding common relationships. If sexuality is derived from genetic material and not socio-psychological pressures/influences, then this neatly removes any social barriers without socially-scarring transition.

Red Tory States, it appears to me that your opinion of gays has greatly changed as this thread has progressed. In the beginning, didn't you say that you thought being gay was alright? Now, you are labeling homosexuality as being unnatural! I sense contradiction! :mad:

being gay is due to parents doing drugs (mental disfunction) and/or when a child is sexual harrased at a young age (emotional problem). It is not natural for people to be gay. Don't Belive Me??? I got all this info from the university of amsterdam
You know, I don't believe you. Perhaps you could point me to these so called documents that you speak of, it shouldn't be a problem since you already know where to get them. I would also like to know who funded the research and if an independent group has repeated it to the same results. If you can produce this then I would be willing to grant you that these may be a cause, but not the only cause, because I know that gay animals exist in the wide and that the parents of those creatures certainly did not do drugs and I doubt that they have the capacity to sexually harass the young of the species.

RTS, no offence intended but if you're serious, please win yourself a Darwin Award.
If you're not being serious then:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!!!!!

silence this forum, and i will still not go away, just because you stop the forum, doesnt stop me from entering into politics

Red Tory States, it appears to me that your opinion of gays has greatly changed as this thread has progressed. In the beginning, didn't you say that you thought being gay was alright? Now, you are labeling homosexuality as being unnatural! I sense contradiction! :mad:

i have thought it always has been unnatural, but i still think that being gay in private away from society is alright, i am not the type of person that invades peoples rights

THE GAY PRIDE PARADE IS A PREVILGE NOT A RIGHT

silence this forum, and i will still not go away, just because you stop the forum, doesnt stop me from entering into politics
Nobody is suggesting the forum be stopped.

i have thought it always has been unnatural, but i still think that being gay in private away from society is alright, i am not the type of person that invades peoples rights

THE GAY PRIDE PARADE IS A PREVILGE NOT A RIGHT
Right to gather peacfully. Right to free speech. But not if you want a gay pride parade?

You know, I don't believe you. Perhaps you could point me to these so called documents that you speak of, it shouldn't be a problem since you already know where to get them. I would also like to know who funded the research and if an independent group has repeated it to the same results. If you can produce this then I would be willing to grant you that these may be a cause, but not the only cause, because I know that gay animals exist in the wide and that the parents of those creatures certainly did not do drugs and I doubt that they have the capacity to sexually harass the young of the species.

is it ever a wonder that those gay animals, act gay due to something we as humans did to them, the gay animals are mostely found in zoos, i wonder why??? ALong with the whales being gay, that is due to our tampering in there ecosystem.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=23532&name=Smoking+mothers+increase+chance+of+lesbian+baby

no thats right
Okay, sorry for my last post, you have given the citation, but this is not an acedemic document. This is a newspaper article. What I want to see is the report from the researchers themselves, not what the reporters choose to put in the article.

Nobody is suggesting the forum be stopped.

stop postings and ending a forum are very similar

is it ever a wonder that those gay animals, act gay due to something we as humans did to them, the gay animals are mostely found in zoos, i wonder why??? ALong with the whales being gay, that is due to our tampering in there ecosystem.

Jesus, you get moe crazy. Where's your evidence for your wild claims?

Right to gather peacfully. Right to free speech. But not if you want a gay pride parade?

I don't think RTS supports any public free speech. :rolleyes:

You know, I don't believe you. Perhaps you could point me to these so called documents that you speak of, it shouldn't be a problem since you already know where to get them. I would also like to know who funded the research and if an independent group has repeated it to the same results. If you can produce this then I would be willing to grant you that these may be a cause, but not the only cause, because I know that gay animals exist in the wide and that the parents of those creatures certainly did not do drugs and I doubt that they have the capacity to sexually harass the young of the species.

Animals don't have a concept of sexuality. It's a hole. So they fuck it. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's a pretty obvious point. Throw a cushion on the floor when there's a horny monkey around and you'll catch the drift pretty neatly.

The only exception is dolphins, and they're not animals in the same sense as dogs, cats, monkeys, sheep, ferrets or whatever. They're probably sentient, so likely have concepts as well.

Without a concept of sexuality, orgasm is just some pleasant thing that happens because you did something.

Right to gather peacfully. Right to free speech. But not if you want a gay pride parade?

thats not what the parade is about, when it was first was created in the 1970's in new york it was, and that was fine, but now its out of hand. the way those people act and dress is gross, if jesus came back today he would not be able to stop vomiting

stop postings and ending a forum are very similar
Not really. People are stopped from posting every now and then, yet the forum struggles on without them. Well not struggles really, seeing as the people who are stopped from posting didn't really add much to the forum.

thats not what the parade is about, when it was first was created in the 1970's in new york it was, and that was fine, but now its out of hand. the way those people act and dress is gross, if jesus came back today he would not be able to stop vomiting

So, what you're saying is that since they dress differently, it's no longer free speech? :confused:

thats not what the parade is about, when it was first was created in the 1970's in new york it was, and that was fine, but now its out of hand. the way those people act and dress is gross, if jesus came back today he would not be able to stop vomiting
Well if Jesus wouldn't like it then we should definitely stop it. :rolleyes:

How people dress and act is their business and not yours, regardless of how 'gross' you believe it to be.

I don't think RTS supports any public free speech. :rolleyes:

okay this continues to pop up on the forum, what does rts stand for?? so i wondered to myself unable to think of what it stood for, i looked it up...

rts stands for real-time strategy, now i know this isnt what you really intend to say so, could you use the extra time to type in the whole word(s). Thanks

So, what you're saying is that since they dress differently, it's no longer free speech? :confused:

I don't see how dressing up in PVC and rubbing your crotch in the face of another man/woman on a float is freedom of speech.

(In the interest of light-heartedness... this post of mine reminds me of Futurama.

"Well, if rubbing frozen dirt in your crotch is wrong, I don't wanna be right.")

is it ever a wonder that those gay animals, act gay due to something we as humans did to them, the gay animals are mostely found in zoos, i wonder why??? ALong with the whales being gay, that is due to our tampering in there ecosystem.
What did people do to make zoo animals gay? Or whales?

Unfortunately, there are too many people running governments who were born a few generations back. They lived in a time where being GLBT was an abberation... a perversion. Oddly enough, at the same time in every generation, the most vocal group of people happen to be young adults, often those who don't get to hold much political power, and they tend to have liberal mindsets. IE: hippies, bohemians...
Really... all we can do to get our ideas acknowledged is wait it out. Eventually the old, scared conservatives will die off... and although some of the liberal youth of today will grow up to become conservatives themselves (like the yuppies before us,) some of us will become the next generation of politicians... and with us will come the changes that we've been craving for so long.

So, a message to the old people out there, who think that what you are building is a legacy of intolerance that will last for eons to come...
We are younger than you. When you are gone... you're ideas will go with you. Have a nice day :D
(... wow... Did I get a bit mean-spirited on that last part?... c'est la vie)

okay this continues to pop up on the forum, what does rts stand for?? so i wondered to myself unable to think of what it stood for, i looked it up...

rts stands for real-time strategy, now i know this isnt what you really intend to say so, could you use the extra time to type in the whole word(s). Thanks

...

R(ed) T(ory) S(tates)

What did people do to make zoo animals gay? Or whales?

we have distrupted there ecosystem, this is not natural, what we are doing to them

Red Tory States, it appears to me that your opinion of gays has greatly changed as this thread has progressed. In the beginning, didn't you say that you thought being gay was alright? Now, you are labeling homosexuality as being unnatural! I sense contradiction! :mad:
I have also noticed this trend. It seems that the charade can only go so far. I bet for the first few pages of this forumn he was enjoying the "happy period between the lie, and the time the lie is found out."

we have distrupted there ecosystem, this is not natural, what we are doing to them

Proof? Academic papers? Research articles? Conference speeches?

Unfortunately, there are too many people running governments who were born a few generations back. They lived in a time where being GLBT was an abberation... a perversion. Oddly enough, at the same time in every generation, the most vocal group of people happen to be young adults, often those who don't get to hold much political power, and they tend to have liberal mindsets. IE: hippies, bohemians...
Really... all we can do to get our ideas acknowledged is wait it out. Eventually the old, scared conservatives will die off... and although some of the liberal youth of today will grow up to become conservatives themselves (like the yuppies before us,) some of us will become the next generation of politicians... and with us will come the changes that we've been craving for so long.

So, a message to the old people out there, who think that what you are building is a legacy of intolerance that will last for eons to come...
We are younger than you. When you are gone... you're ideas will go with you. Have a nice day :D
(... wow... Did I get a bit mean-spirited on that last part?... c'est la vie)

You're repeating the words of the very same people you intend to be scathing towards, thirty-forty years on.

we have distrupted there ecosystem, this is not natural, what we are doing to them
How have we disupted their ecosystem? What are we doing to them that is not natural? How is that making them gay?

Unfortunately, there are too many people running governments who were born a few generations back. They lived in a time where being GLBT was an abberation... a perversion. Oddly enough, at the same time in every generation, the most vocal group of people happen to be young adults, often those who don't get to hold much political power, and they tend to have liberal mindsets. IE: hippies, bohemians...
Really... all we can do to get our ideas acknowledged is wait it out. Eventually the old, scared conservatives will die off... and although some of the liberal youth of today will grow up to become conservatives themselves (like the yuppies before us,) some of us will become the next generation of politicians... and with us will come the changes that we've been craving for so long.

So, a message to the old people out there, who think that what you are building is a legacy of intolerance that will last for eons to come...
We are younger than you. When you are gone... you're ideas will go with you. Have a nice day :D
(... wow... Did I get a bit mean-spirited on that last part?... c'est la vie)

i am very young, do you think me and all the youth like me will stand for it

silence this forum, and i will still not go away, just because you stop the forum, doesnt stop me from entering into politics
Okay, remember the irony here RTS. You want to ban gays and everyone from announcing something about yourself, yet you yourself are doing just that by announcing your hatred for gays here. You are either a hypocrite or you just can't see basic logic. I suspect a bit of both.

Proof? Academic papers? Research articles? Conference speeches?

The only thing anywhere near the level of 'social' impact on animal life that he's (RTS) talking about that I can think of is the feeding of monkeys. They discovered that monkeys never fed by human hands are by far less violent - because we disrupted social order by feeding them in the wrong order, etc.

i am very young, do you think me and all the youth like me will stand for it

What youth like you? Most people actually acept homosexuality as normal. Those who don't are mocked and/or ignored. You really think you can lead a 'youth' uprising against homosexuals?

...

R(ed) T(ory) S(tates)

so you just made that up? so it could be 10 letters shorter, WOW 10 FREAKING LETTER!!!

The only thing anywhere near the level of 'social' impact on animal life that he's (RTS) talking about that I can think of is the feeding of monkeys. They discovered that monkeys never fed by human hands are by far less violent - because we disrupted social order by feeding them in the wrong order, etc.

Yeah, I figured he had no proof...

so you just made that up? so it could be 10 letters shorter, WOW 10 FREAKING LETTER!!!

You can stop with the flaming. It's accepted practice as it makes writing easier.

Proof? Academic papers? Research articles? Conference speeches?

how does taking a animal from there home and putting it behing bars need proof?

how does taking a animal from there home and putting it behing bars need proof?

You said doing that made them gay. I asked how that made them gay. I did not say they were not behind bars in a zoo.

so you just made that up? so it could be 10 letters shorter, WOW 10 FREAKING LETTER!!!
Welcome to the internet my frined, you'll want to acquaint yourself with the idea of acronyms, there's quite a few here.

You can stop with the flaming. It's accepted practice as it makes writing easier.

lazy assholes

thats not what the parade is about, when it was first was created in the 1970's in new york it was, and that was fine, but now its out of hand. the way those people act and dress is gross, if jesus came back today he would not be able to stop vomiting
Really? You've talked to Jesus? You know what he would think about this. Well then praise the lord! We should all just lie back and accept everything that RTS has to say as the absolute truth. After all he has talked to the lord! :rolleyes:

lazy assholes

Again, welcome to the internet...

lazy assholes
I suggest you stop flaming if you want to continue posting.

Yeah, I figured he had no proof...

Yes. However, I'll also note that a zoologist friend of mine who I'm talking to elsewhere just told me to also note that their violent behaviour also included rather brutal rape of family members, regardless of age, occasionally ending with the killing of said victim.

This is a pretty massive impact, so there may be some small merit in his little unsubstantiated theory - but probably not. Homosexuality in animals has been recorded for the entire written history of humanity, so it's highly improbable that we're the sole cause, since the totality of our interaction in the depth of the past was killing them for food.

Really? You've talked to Jesus? You know what he would think about this. Well then praise the lord! We should all just lie back and accept everything that RTS has to say as the absolute truth. After all he has talked to the lord! :rolleyes:

If you don't calm down a bit, a mod might delete you.

This is flamebait and as unacceptable as the "you assholes" comment RTS made. Please cool it; debate is fun, pissing contests fraught with insults are not. :)

so doctors and the schoolboard just decided to tell my parents that i was dyslexic just for the hell of it???

Possibly, very possibly. But then, dyslexia is just a lifestyle choice anyway, I suppose.


okay, i am a tory, but i never said that i was a member of the conservitive party of canada, me too hate the reform party and how the toke over the PC party. i am a member of the PC party that was re-started by tories! So where did you get that i was a member of the conservitive party??? I consider myself i real tory unlike you, i base my beliefs on macdonald and definbaker, not joe clark ( a pm that was weak). so dont jump to conclusions, i am tried of telling people this.

I, too, am a great fan of both Sir John A and Dief the Chief. I'm from the very best province in Canada, after all, so I kind of have to like Diefenbaker -- and in fact I met him a number of times and got a speeding ticket going back down to Regina after his funeral. But I like Tommy Douglas as well, and my parents actually named me after the premier. Both Tommy and Dief had much in common besides the fact that they are both closely associated with Saskatchewan, and that is a devotion to equality and human rights. It's not for no reason that Dief was called "the Prairie Bolshevik" by the old-boy conservative establishment, and Diefenbaker brought in Canada's first national Bill of Rights, though it was a number of years after Tommy brought in the first provincial one.

I went as a Flora Macdonald youth delegate to the PC convention in Ottawa that elected Joe Clark leader, and I crossed the floor to Joe along with Flora. I was impressed by his honesty, wit, and compassion, and when Brian Mulroney stabbed him in the back a few years later, I shunned the party. But I came back to the party of Macdonald when Joe did, and was never prouder than when he served as Grand Marshall for the Calgary Pride parade. Every time I've met Joe since, I would get this warm feeling that here was a man who cared about other people.

a traditional tory would never be a homo

Tell that to Scott Brison, who's considerably more fiscally conservative than most people in the Conservative party. He was a proud PC, but he found he couldn't belong to a new and renamed Reform party populated by practically nothing but bigots, so when his party was pulled out from under him, he did the logical thing and found a party that wouldn't see him as a second-class person. If he hadn't, if he'd joined the Alliance Conservatives, he'd be the gay equivalent of an Uncle Tom, and he wouldn't be worthy of either your respect or mine.

Richard Hatfield, the PC premier of New Brunswick for 17 years, was pretty obviously gay as well.

I'm glad that throughout this discussion, you've pretty much refrained from mentioning god, because that's just a red herring. So thank you for that, anyway.

You said doing that made them gay. I asked how that made them gay. I did not say they were not behind bars in a zoo.

the pengiuns that lived in the nature with the opposite sex, are straight and the pengiuns in germany in a zoo, are gay because there is no opposite sex with them.

plus if we just let them live themselves in nature, without tearing down there homes, and warming the earth, i am preaty sure they would be fine

the pengiuns that lived in the nature with the opposite sex, are straight and the pengiuns in germany in a zoo, are gay because there is no opposite sex with them.

plus if we just let them live themselves in nature, without tearing down there homes, and warming the earth, i am preaty sure they would be fine

Again, I must ask for academic proof for this claim, specifically that the Penguins in Germany have been proven to be homosexuals.

the pengiuns that lived in the nature with the opposite sex, are straight and the pengiuns in germany in a zoo, are gay because there is no opposite sex with them.

plus if we just let them live themselves in nature, without tearing down there homes, and warming the earth, i am preaty sure they would be fine

Please see my earlier 'cushion and monkey' simile. Animals DO NOT HAVE sexuality.

What about them being gay makes them not fine?

They're not breeding.

the pengiuns that lived in the nature with the opposite sex, are straight and the pengiuns in germany in a zoo, are gay because there is no opposite sex with them.

plus if we just let them live themselves in nature, without tearing down there homes, and warming the earth, i am preaty sure they would be fine

What about them being gay makes them not fine?

Acquictic & Red Tory: What is (was) your opinion of Brian Mulroney?

Backstabber. Plus, he almost ruined our country and sold us out to the Yankees.

What about them being gay makes them not fine?

It hasn't even been established that they are gay yet...

i am very young, do you think me and all the youth like me will stand for it
How young you are is irrelevant. If you're younger than me it can't be by much if you're a member of any party (I'm 18). And as one of the youth of this country, I don't see how you could prevent it. You are in the minority of people who live in the past. You are so concerned about protecting your children. Did your parents do that for you? Did they indoctrinate you into their beliefs? Have you ever made a decision regarding important matters based on ideas you have come up with, things that you have embraced not because you inherited them from your parents, but because you made an informed decision based on the careful weighing of the two sides of an issue?

the pengiuns that lived in the nature with the opposite sex, are straight and the pengiuns in germany in a zoo, are gay because there is no opposite sex with them.

plus if we just let them live themselves in nature, without tearing down there homes, and warming the earth, i am preaty sure they would be fine
So animals are gay because of lack of potential mates of the opposite sex? You are aware that such situations do occur in nature, lack of potential mates, yes? Also do you have a source for this, or is it your own idea? Similarly are you suggesting that humans are gay because of a lack of potential mates?

Again, I must ask for academic proof for this claim, specifically that the Penguins in Germany have been proven to be homosexuals.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1275591.html

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1275591.html
News stories are not academic proof, nor does that story quote any academic proof. Try again.

This is flamebait and as unacceptable as the "you assholes" comment RTS made. Please cool it; debate is fun, pissing contests fraught with insults are not. :)
My apologies, but the point remains the same. He said that if Jesus came back he wouldn't be able to stop from vomiting, and I can't see how he could possibly know this.

Everything is politics, and sex. They touch everything. Therefore onward...

“We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it!!”

Well we toyed around with "We're here, we're queer, please stop beating us up and leaving us for dead in the ditch," or "we're here, we're queer, ow the electric shock therapy hurts!" but they didn't roll off the tongue.

Get used to what???

Um, our existence, mostly. Also our equal rights as human beings to have the same stuff that straight people have-- who didn't do anything special to get the perks that their being straight has always afforded them. Little things, really. Like shelter, or employment, or visitation rights at the hospital, or inheritance from the people we've shared our lives with. Or safety-- like when we're walking at night, either alone or with our partners, that would be kickass. These are all things we'd like, but that some people still deny us. And it's funny, but keeping our heads and our voices down, not calling attention to ourselves or the indignities we were suffering for hundreds of years, that wasn't working so well. The whole pacifism thing might have worked for Ghandi but personally, I think he cheated. Then we noticed some other people who'd been abused for a long time kinda like we were-- being killed, being denied their rights to go where they'd like or marry who they wanted, for instance-- and we saw them marching and protesting and it seemed to be getting them somewhere. They were told they should just shut up, stop marching, and pretend that by telling themselves they had it just as good that the world would open up for them, too.

You’re gay. Good for you! Now just tell me, what does it have to do with me???

What does my sexuality have to do with you? Why do I have to shove it in your face, always be so 'out there' with it, flaunting it? Well, let's turn that one around-- what does your sexuality have to do with me? Why do you have to shove it in my face, always be so 'out there' with it, flaunting it? Why do you have to wear a wedding ring when I still couldn't get one in all but 4 or 5 countries on Earth? Why do you have to have a picture of your girlfriend/wife/etc on your desk when in some places I could get fired for having a picture of my boyfriend? Why do you have to talk about your girlfriend/wife/etc whenever and wherever you want, when in some company I'd better talk about my "friend" in the most neutral language possible, or lie about him, or keep that part of my life to myself entirely? Why do you have to be all over the TV with your boy-on-girl action *all* the frikkin' time, while all I get for role-models, all I see to represent me-- are comedy relief charicatures or tortured eunichs? And it goes on and on. Granted, most of society isn't as bad towards me as those examples-- not anymore-- but it used to be. And change didn't come about by my predecessors keeping quiet or hidden. It came because some of them, and still too few at that, spoke up and marched and changed and demanded to be seen instead of ignored at best, or quietly exterminated at worst.

I could have a straight pride parade. That way everyone can know my sexual orintation, and I can force them to acknowledge it even though it has abousulutly nothing to do with them.

You absolutely could. The question, however, is not "why shouldn't you?" but "what would be the point?" You talk about the idea as though it would give you visibility where before you were invisible. As though it would suddenly make people see you for who you are where before, they just made assumptions and didn't respect who you are. But it's probably safe to say that isn't the case. Everywhere you go-- except, maybe, for a few urban gay 'ghettos'-- people most likely assume that you're straight, so they treat you like a straight person, and they interact with you as though you're both members of the greatest club ever. They take for granted that you share all the privelages of being straight (and there are still many, because it's still a heterosexist society that heavily favours the straight majority). The problem with that is that I, for instance, am not straight. I don't want people to assume that I am, I don't want people to take for granted that I like all the same things they like and want all the same things they want. Oh, sure, I want a relationship and someone who loves me, but I want those things with another guy, and if I don't mention that they're going to *assume* that I'm a straight guy who wants a girl. Well that's not me, and I shouldn't have to keep quiet just so that they are spared the awkwardness of my 'otherness.' That's the point of Pride parades. That, and to show a whole great big whack of gay people in all of our diversity in one place at one time, so that the closeted kid who thinks he or she's the only 'freak' in the world can see that he or she isn't alone. So that they can see, even if it's only for one day out of the year, that there are others like him or her out there-- something straight people take *totally* for granted because they're immersed in a whole culture that tells them, every day, virtually everwhere they go, they're normal and right and that they have value. And being smack in the middle of that, for gay kids, amounts to being told every day, virtually everywhere they go, that they're abnormal and wrong and that they have no value.

So before you denounce gay pride parades, before you take for granted that everything you have is the same as everyone else can have (or should want), before you announce from your throne of straight privelage that there's no need for us to call so much attention to ourselves, try imagining growing up feeling like the the only hetero 'freak' in a world full of-- and clearly favouring-- gay people. Try imagining being taunted and harassed for being a "vagina diver," people driving by you at night and yelling "breeder" with hate in their voices. Imagine feeling invisible in the media, silenced by society, condemned by the church you go to, discriminated against by employers. Imagine feeling like you should hide information that could be important about you-- or at least meaningful in your life-- from your family, your friends, your doctor. Imagine seeing stories on the news about straight people being beaten, castrated, or murdered for being straight, and your parents saying "well it's their own fault." Imagine hearing about camps where you could be sent to try and "fix" you, or the leaders of entire countries talking about you like a leper, calling for "vile heterosexuals" to be eradicated, discussing you like you were a plague.

And then, if you can actually imagine that life, then you tell me that you wouldn't want-- indeed, need-- a Straight Pride day so that for just one day a year you could see that there are hundreds or thousands of other straight people out there, and maybe you could feel safe with them, holding hands with your secret girlfriend on the street for an hour or two.


I DO NOT HATE GAYS, I just think that society has gone way too far. It does not matter what sexual orientation you are, as long as you keap it inside you, no one has to know.

And if you think that you could go a whole day, and then a week, and then your whole life "keeping inside" the fact that you're straight-- keeping it private because your sexual orientation is no one else's business-- then I challenge you to try it. Try treating it like a secret, like no one else needs to know. Better yet-- let's really give you some motivation for the scene-- try treating it like you could be killed for it if the wrong person knew about it, or even suspected it.

I say we ban the gay pride parade, and any other event dealing with sexual orintations in public. Weddings are okay because there private.
THINK ABOUT WHAT I JUST SAID!!!!!! I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!!!!

Okay then, I propose we ban straight pride, and any events associated with straight orientation. No affection, no talking about it, no forcing it in the face of society. Weddings are okay, as long as you don't try to get it announced in the "Marriages" page or try holding the ceremony in 99% of churches, or expect the government to recognise it.

*Everything* is politics and sex. Everything. Every single thing in society touches politics, or sex, or both, because people in a society are always going to be sexual, and they're always going to be political (even if they choose to be abstinent or stay out of politics, because choosing to keep out is still choosing what kind of relationship to have with sex or politics). Homosexuality, like gender issues, happens to touch both, and that's why until society as a whole has corrected its many abuses of power (a huge theme in sexuality and politics), you aren't going to be able to get away from it. Wherever inequity exists, the people getting the short end of the stick are eventually either raise their voices and stand up for themselves, and the 'oppressors' are going to have either deal with it until society fully integrates the minority, or the minority is exterminated. And you can say you don't hate gay people, but if you aren't prepared to deal with us-- if you'd prefer that you didn't have to see or hear about us or acknowledge our existence-- then you are tacitly endorsing the extermination option.

Those in power-- namely the majority-- always prefer that those 'under' them keep quiet, stay invisible, consent to their marginalisation. It makes it easier to take everything they have for granted and maintain the status quo, to never have to give anything up or recognize the 'others' as equal. Makes it easier to feel superior, and easier to erase minorities, if they're quiet and invisible. Well, we're here. And we're queer. And you might not hate us, might not like having to see or hear us, but you're going to have to deal with us because we aren't going anywhere. We've been abused and murdered for centuries, and now those who've inherited everything built on top of our abused and murdered forebearers bodies have got to make amends. We were always expected to give as much as anyone else, given back less (if anything) unless we hid and pretended to be something we weren't, and now we want what everyone else has-- having done nothing special to get it-- but have long been denied. Little things, really. This bundled package of benefits we've heard about, we call it "equality." But those who have all the nice things never seem to want to share them, they always feel that even being asked is some huge imposition, like they're 'under attack.' Well we aren't after what's yours. We want what's ours, and you've been keeping it from us. It's time to pony up.

News stories are not academic proof, nor does that story quote any academic proof. Try again.

ya the zoo was just telling a tale, just for no reason what so ever

the pengiuns that lived in the nature with the opposite sex, are straight and the pengiuns in germany in a zoo, are gay because there is no opposite sex with them.

plus if we just let them live themselves in nature, without tearing down there homes, and warming the earth, i am preaty sure they would be fine
Men in prison will have sex, that doesn't mean their gay. If you could prove that these penguins were straight before being held in captivity and then would not return to this after being reintroduced to females then maybe there would be some basis in your claim.

I come as representitive of The Holy Empire Of Seamus The Hammer,
I am proud to announce the first annual Apathy rally!

If you really don't care about anything, Show up!

The rally will start on August 14, 10am sharp, in Seamus Square, in the capital city of Bloodrock. Birth-place of His Holyness Seamus the Hammer.

Um, our existence, mostly. Also our equal rights as human beings to have the same stuff that straight people have-- who didn't do anything special to get the perks that their being straight has always afforded them. Little things, really. Like shelter, or employment, or visitation rights at the hospital, or inheritance from the people we've shared our lives with. Or safety-- like when we're walking at night, either alone or with our partners, that would be kickass. These are all things we'd like, but that some people still deny us. And it's funny, but keeping our heads and our voices down, not calling attention to ourselves or the indignities we were suffering for hundreds of years, that wasn't working so well. The whole pacifism thing might have worked for Ghandi but personally, I think he cheated. Then we noticed some other people who'd been abused for a long time kinda like we were-- being killed, being denied their rights to go where they'd like or marry who they wanted, for instance-- and we saw them marching and protesting and it seemed to be getting them somewhere. They were told they should just shut up, stop marching, and pretend that by telling themselves they had it just as good that the world would open up for them, too.

ya, you do have equal rights, and i am not trying to get ride of that

Men in prison will have sex, that doesn't mean their gay. If you could prove that these penguins were straight before being held in captivity and then would not return to this after being reintroduced to females then maybe there would be some basis in your claim.

prison sex/rape never happens that was just a joke passed around by someone

I come as representitive of The Holy Empire Of Seamus The Hammer,
I am proud to announce the first annual Apathy rally!

If you really don't care about anything, Show up!

no

ya the zoo was just telling a tale, just for no reason what so ever
There is no proof that being in the zoo is what made those penguins gay.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1275591.html
Articles of that type are not acedemic proof. Additionally it did not include the results or the condition of the penguins prior to their captivity.

There is no proof that being in the zoo is what made those penguins gay.

they arent gay in the wild

prison sex/rape never happens that was just a joke passed around by someone
And how would you know this? Go on, go to a prison shower and drop the soap. Then you can tell us it's all just a story.

ya, you do have equal rights, and i am not trying to get ride of that
Correct, it appears you want to get rid of all public rights for everyone. You do know that that's a trend dictatorships usually follow don't you?

they arent gay in the wild
Once again, what is your proof for this?

I come as representitive of The Holy Empire Of Seamus The Hammer,
I am proud to announce the first annual Apathy rally!

If you really don't care about anything, Show up!

The rally will start on August 14, 10am sharp, in Seamus Square, in the capital city of Bloodrock. Birth-place of His Holyness Seamus the Hammer.

Or not. Whatever. Who cares, really?

ya, you do have equal rights, and i am not trying to get ride of that
You are trying to get rid of the rights to gather peacfully, to express one's self and to speak freely.

And how would you know this? Go on, go to a prison shower and drop the soap. Then you can tell us it's all just a story.

it was in the national post (newspaper), now i cant just go back in time, and cut that article out and mail it to you, now can i??

Correct, it appears you want to get rid of all public rights for everyone. You do know that that's a trend dictatorships usually follow don't you?

ya, thats one reason why some dictatorships can be the best form of government, not all though

Once again, what is your proof for this?

its just common knowledge

You are trying to get rid of the rights to gather peacfully, to express one's self and to speak freely.

i have nothing against people gathering and talking about there right to be gay in public, what i have a problem is when they do it

they arent gay in the wild

How about this, then?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

it was in the national post (newspaper), now i cant just go back in time, and cut that article out and mail it to you, now can i??
Well if it was in a newspaper that it never happened then it must be true, seeing as anything you write is a newpaper is automagically true.:rolleyes:

ya, thats one reason why some dictatorships can be the best form of government, not all though
Did he just say that? Really? What dictatorships exist in which the people aren't repressed, deprived of basic rights, ect.?

its just common knowledge
It used to be common knowledge that the world was flat and that chameleons lived on air.

its just common knowledge

It must not be since so many people are asking for proof regarding your claims.

its just common knowledge
Enlighten me.

How about this, then?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

thats our fault that is happening

i have nothing against people gathering and talking about there right to be gay in public, what i have a problem is when they do it
What? What could possibly be wrong with when they do it? So what time do you deem to be acceptable for a gay rights parade?

Well if it was in a newspaper that it never happened then it must be true, seeing as anything you write is a newpaper is automagically true.:rolleyes:

then where did you hear that story about the "dont drop the soap", in a movie, from your gay friend, or from law and order?

it was in the national post (newspaper), now i cant just go back in time, and cut that article out and mail it to you, now can i??

I don't think that even the National Post would be so stupid as to say that prison rape doesn't happen. Do you read any legitimate newspapers, too, by the way, like maybe The Globe and Mail, Canada's newspaper of record?

Did he just say that? Really? What dictatorships exist in which the people aren't repressed, deprived of basic rights, ect.?

people do not need those things when they are governed by a phylosphere king

thats our fault that is happening
What is your proof for this statement?

It must not be since so many people are asking for proof regarding your claims.

i could easily turn around and ask you proof for your comments

thats our fault that is happening

The bonobos and the Japanese macaques? They're gay because of something we did? It's not in a zoo; it's in the wild. Where in the article does it says it's man that caused their homosexuality? Did you read both pages?