NationStates Jolt Archive

Logically, demons do not exist - the idea of magical powers etc. have no basis on anything in reality. So someone saying they have seen one with no evidence but their own testimony (which cannot be entirely trusted), cannot automatically be assumed as telling the truth. As to demons existing - we just don't know (Although I think that it's unlikely by logic, nothing can really be automatically dismissed completely)


Perhaps by your logic demons do not logically exist. But your logic is hardly exhaustive (or mine either, for that matter).

I do not automatically assume that every thing an honest person says is right, or even truth. Neither do I assume that they are lying or deceived, simply because I am not able to confirm their testimony. Like you, I would tend towards an 'I don't know' position, if that was all the reason I had for believing in the existence of demons.

However, unlike you, I tend to think of the Bible as reliable, which would mean that my position is more like 'I can't say from personal experience that demons exist, neither do I know that they exist, but I find their existence quite likely, because the Bible talks about them.' And while I have heard all sorts of explanations for the accounts of demons in the Bible, I have not found any of them very convincing.

Having said that, I do not find their existence altogether alarming. I think the evil within is a far greater danger to a human soul than the evil without.

I do not know what logic you are referring to (by which you dismiss demons as unlikely), so perhaps you would care to share?


If I told you that a clear sky looked blue, you would say that is the truth (assuming you can see that too, as an example), however, it would be fairly absurd for you to believe me if I said that the Earth was 3 years old. Just becuase an amount of statements form a source can be trusted, does not mean that 100% of it can be trusted.

I see your point, but it was one that I have replied to long ago.

Because I have evidence that does not match your 3 year scenario, I would tend not to believe you. You would move from a credible source to an untrustworthy one, in my opinion. But this situation with demons is quite different. When one of my friends tells me that he encountered a demon, I have no evidence with which to discredit his testimony. I have to look at his character to see if he would tell me a lie. If he seems honest enough, then I would conclude that either he is deceived, or he is right, but because I am in no position to decide that (in the absence of external evidence), I would have to conclude that I cannot say.

But perhaps you are referring to the Bible not being 100% reliable, and that it is my mistake to assume it. You may have a point there, and I do have a very good answer to it if you are interested.

-snip-

It seems that we actually agree on everything but the credibility of The Bible, which is probably best left to opinions.

I do not know what logic you are referring to (by which you dismiss demons as unlikely), so perhaps you would care to share?

The existence of demons relies on the existence of magic, and many of the claims regarding the abilities of demons show them to be impossible under all (current) laws of nature. Also, from anaylsis of human culture, it appears that they are nothing more than mythical creatures developed by the human mind.

But perhaps you are referring to the Bible not being 100% reliable, and that it is my mistake to assume it. You may have a point there, and I do have a very good answer to it if you are interested.

I would be interested in the answer, for the sake of greater understanding.

Yeah, I had a feeling that would be troublesome when I wrote it: I didn't mean rationalist in a strictly philosophical sense, but rather in an everyday one.

Ah. Well I suppose in the interests of clarity, I might as well let you know a few things about me.

I'm an agnostic theist, and a practicing Catholic. My parents are both scientists and when they raised me I was taught about how things work in terms of physics and chemistry rather than about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, so I tend to have an incredibly strong tendency towards empiricism when it comes to me beliefs in addition to my basic pragmatism. If there's sufficient evidence for something and/or it works effectively, I'll go with it. If not, I abandon it.

Frankly, I was rather skeptical about the existence of demons, but I always try to keep an open mind just in case, because it's always possible that I'm wrong. Then after seeing two of my friends behave as if possessed and having a couple of demonic experiences of my own (not possession, and only one of the experiences was related to the incident where my friends were possessed), I decided that there was sufficient reason to believe in demons until a better explanation came along. Given my friends' medical history, the circumstances surrounding the incident, the lack of mind-altering substances present, their previous behavior, and so on, I was unable to find a "rational" explanation that fit the available evidence. I was likewise unable to find a "rational" explanation for my own experiences.

I still don't believe in little invisible horned beings that cackle evilly and sit on our shoulders while poking poor souls with pitchforks. But I do believe that there are entities or forces that can be peculiarly malignant or beneficent that we are as of yet unable to explain within a materialist paradigm. Perhaps one day we will. I have to admit that I very much hope and suspect that we will someday, and that my belief in demons will become an amusing curiosity in a future age in which people have a much clearer grasp of what those forces or entities are.

References, please. Where is all that in the Bible?
Pi equaling 3: 1 Kings 7:23

Insects having four legs: Leviticus 11:21-23

Rabbits chewing cud: Leviticus 11:6

Bats being birds: Leviticus 11:13-19, Deuteronomy 14:11-18

YHWH being unable to harm people in chariots of iron: Judges 1:19

If it's your job to learn and prepare, why aren't you learning about your supposed enemy, i.e. demons? It's not like it's a new subject; there are tons of references. You can take it as an insult if you like, but I am surprised that you feel such a calling for this, yet you have made so little effort to learn about it.

Quite frankly, I'm a bit put out by your refusal to be at all specific about what you think is going on in the world, spiritually. You say you're preparing for the end times and that you're trying to get a group put together, but though you hint that your group isn't on the same page as you, demon-wise, you refuse to say what kind of work this group is doing or what work you think it should be doing. You talk about having a pastor but you refuse to name your church. You just refuse to answer legitimate questions that would help people understand where you're coming from. How are people supposed to advise you when they don't even know what you are really thinking?

You may be completely serious about your religion and your belief in demons, but about seriously engaging people in this thread of yours? Not so much, it seems.
The AntiChrist will at one point literally be the Devil, so in a sense I am studying the enemy. I have not gone into great detail because I already have several research projects going on. I have started a small amount of research on demons, but not nearly enough. I need to finish my current studies before I can begin the real detailed stuff on demons, also I have two friends that I know will want to study with me (or at least one of them will). Right now we are all really busy and for them to be studying end time prophecies with me is almost to much to ask. We are still in Revelations, we have to studying Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekial, ect. I am almost finished with one of my studies and in another week or so will begin the indepth study of demons, so I am making an effort, the biggest one possible at the moment (I do have a job you know).
Look, I know some basic stuff about demons. They are the enemy. I have read the Bible and I know how to resist temptation and I have studied the steps of temptation. I think that the end times are approaching, though I can't say if I will ever see them or not, all I know is that as the world grow more evil it becomes more like it was in the days of Noah (Jesus said when he returned it would be as it was in the time of Noah), in fact the world today is having the same exact problems. My fighting demons (however it is I chose to do that) is directly related to these end days because time is running out to show those around us salvation, and in bringing people to salvation you are fighting the devil (though I want to do more). I can't yet say the exact work that my group is to be doing, but the more I learn about Revelations, the more ideas I get. I haven't talked to the rest of the group and I am not at liberty to discuss it (look, I really can't say who you are, asking you for advice is one thing, but revealing plans against the devil on the internet is not the best idea, his servants very well could be listening). My group is not on the same page because I have not yet presented all of my ideas. We have an upcoming meeting at which we will be discussing our plans and our studies. As for my church, I maintan communication with a pastor from Colorado, but I just recently moved to the Middle East (no, I will not give you a more specific location) and do not have an offical church. Right now I am very involved in a small house church and intend to stay with it, maybe I will start attending a larger one in a few months.
As for me not being on this thread all day, I have a job. I need to sleep. I am not going to waste the time of my company by doing this, I will only be here on my time. I read and weigh everything that has been put on here, but since I am not on here all day I simply do not have to time to respond to everything, only to what I feel I need to. As for not giving people enough, I don't have enough. If some one here wants to help me get further into my research, they can give some real information on demons, but there hasn't been to much of that so far.

And you sound a bit like you couldn't wait for that to happen and to gloat a bit, right? :D
No, I would never wish that one some one. But they will have chosen it for themselves, and sure I will feel bad about it, but it was their choice, not mine.

The AntiChrist will at one point literally be the Devil, so in a sense I am studying the enemy. I have not gone into great detail because I already have several research projects going on. I have started a small amount of research on demons, but not nearly enough. I need to finish my current studies before I can begin the real detailed stuff on demons, also I have two friends that I know will want to study with me (or at least one of them will). Right now we are all really busy and for them to be studying end time prophecies with me is almost to much to ask. We are still in Revelations, we have to studying Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekial, ect. I am almost finished with one of my studies and in another week or so will begin the indepth study of demons, so I am making an effort, the biggest one possible at the moment (I do have a job you know).
Look, I know some basic stuff about demons. They are the enemy. I have read the Bible and I know how to resist temptation and I have studied the steps of temptation. I think that the end times are approaching, though I can't say if I will ever see them or not, all I know is that as the world grow more evil it becomes more like it was in the days of Noah (Jesus said when he returned it would be as it was in the time of Noah), in fact the world today is having the same exact problems. My fighting demons (however it is I chose to do that) is directly related to these end days because time is running out to show those around us salvation, and in bringing people to salvation you are fighting the devil (though I want to do more). I can't yet say the exact work that my group is to be doing, but the more I learn about Revelations, the more ideas I get. I haven't talked to the rest of the group and I am not at liberty to discuss it (look, I really can't say who you are, asking you for advice is one thing, but revealing plans against the devil on the internet is not the best idea, his servants very well could be listening). My group is not on the same page because I have not yet presented all of my ideas. We have an upcoming meeting at which we will be discussing our plans and our studies. As for my church, I maintan communication with a pastor from Colorado, but I just recently moved to the Middle East (no, I will not give you a more specific location) and do not have an offical church. Right now I am very involved in a small house church and intend to stay with it, maybe I will start attending a larger one in a few months.
As for me not being on this thread all day, I have a job. I need to sleep. I am not going to waste the time of my company by doing this, I will only be here on my time. I read and weigh everything that has been put on here, but since I am not on here all day I simply do not have to time to respond to everything, only to what I feel I need to. As for not giving people enough, I don't have enough. If some one here wants to help me get further into my research, they can give some real information on demons, but there hasn't been to much of that so far.


So, I started off being pretty interested in the ideas given about the existence of demons, way back in those first few pages... but... seriously... this IS starting to sound like stuff out of my introductory psychology text book.
I mean... if there are demons around, and they're spiritual beings as you've said, couldn't they just listen in on the private conversations you're having with your group? Couldn't they go to the 'minions' of the devil and let them in on your plans to thwart them?
This is starting to sound like the stuff televangelists got me to believe when I was a kid...

Pi equaling 3: 1 Kings 7:23

Insects having four legs: Leviticus 11:21-23

Rabbits chewing cud: Leviticus 11:6

Bats being birds: Leviticus 11:13-19, Deuteronomy 14:11-18

YHWH being unable to harm people in chariots of iron: Judges 1:19

Well pi is rougly 3. and rabbits do eat grass. and bats look like birds. If god was using lightning - which would probably be his best option - an iron chariot would protect you. What have these things been posted for anyway? Im too lazy to read much so if someone could sum it all up in a few lines that would be groovy. a good summing up can keep many a thread alive.

What do you think about demons? I know that they are real, I mean I am as sure as a person can really be. The reason I am asking is lately I have had them on my mind a lot. I know that I need to fight them, but I don't know how. Also now adays you never hear about people being possessed. It may be because now we would think that they are just mentally retarded. Any thoughts?
Sure. A demon can only torment you about something you share with it.
Think about it a while.

So, I started off being pretty interested in the ideas given about the existence of demons, way back in those first few pages... but... seriously... this IS starting to sound like stuff out of my introductory psychology text book.
I mean... if there are demons around, and they're spiritual beings as you've said, couldn't they just listen in on the private conversations you're having with your group? Couldn't they go to the 'minions' of the devil and let them in on your plans to thwart them?
This is starting to sound like the stuff televangelists got me to believe when I was a kid...
When I said servants, I meant their human servants. I'm not accusing any one here of being on, but this is the internet. Pretty much any one could read what I post.

Sure. A demon can only torment you about something you share with it.
Think about it a while.
Well, not necessarily with it. They don't know your thoughts, but the do hear what you say (and see what you do). They know your weakenesses. By doing anything, you are 'sharing it' with a them.

Read: He's in his bedroom at his mum's place. I've read some of this guy's posts b4 and he's a fruitloop. He just makes shit up. I'm betting he's like 38 and still living with his parents.
First off, I'm not a man. Second, I really don't care what you think of my posts. Third, I am 29. My parents are dead.

Demons are cool. Jesus is a liar. The bible is propaganda. Possession gives one cool supernatural powers. Just give in to it dude. Demons are the shit.
Satan is the Master Deciever. Do not believe his lies. He will tell you that Jesus lies. The Bible is not propaganda, even Satans knows it is true and that God exists. The supernatural powers that people are given by possessions would not be worth it. No, I will not give in to it, but I will pray (to God) for you.

<snip>
And if you are interested, I have replied to your 'dramatic' post.
Thanks. You won't like my response. The drama continues.

The AntiChrist will at one point literally be the Devil, so in a sense I am studying the enemy. I have not gone into great detail because I already have several research projects going on. I have started a small amount of research on demons, but not nearly enough. I need to finish my current studies before I can begin the real detailed stuff on demons, also I have two friends that I know will want to study with me (or at least one of them will). Right now we are all really busy and for them to be studying end time prophecies with me is almost to much to ask. We are still in Revelations, we have to studying Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekial, ect. I am almost finished with one of my studies and in another week or so will begin the indepth study of demons, so I am making an effort, the biggest one possible at the moment (I do have a job you know).

Okay, if you're in the process and you decided to query internet reactions before doing your reading, fine. I would have done it differently. I prefer not to start such discussions until I have read at least two reference sources. I also would not query on a public forum looking for serious input, unless I was studying attitudes toward demons and wanted to collect samples.

Look, I know some basic stuff about demons. They are the enemy. I have read the Bible and I know how to resist temptation and I have studied the steps of temptation. I think that the end times are approaching, though I can't say if I will ever see them or not, all I know is that as the world grow more evil it becomes more like it was in the days of Noah (Jesus said when he returned it would be as it was in the time of Noah), in fact the world today is having the same exact problems. My fighting demons (however it is I chose to do that) is directly related to these end days because time is running out to show those around us salvation, and in bringing people to salvation you are fighting the devil (though I want to do more).

Thanks. Now we have a more clear idea of where you are coming from. Some of your remarks, without any context, did make some of us fear you might be suffering from some mental or emotional disturbance. But it seems you are not. You are just a true end-times believer.

I can't yet say the exact work that my group is to be doing, but the more I learn about Revelations, the more ideas I get. I haven't talked to the rest of the group and I am not at liberty to discuss it (look, I really can't say who you are, asking you for advice is one thing, but revealing plans against the devil on the internet is not the best idea, his servants very well could be listening).

Why would you be talking about this on a public forum at all, if you are worried about such things? In any event, I don't want specific information about you. Mid East is location enough (like I said, half-jokingly, I really only cared whether you lived next door to me.) I don't want to know which specific, physical church you attend. I was only interested in the denomination, which probably has many adherents and would be no clue to your identity. I am interested to know what ideas you are getting from reading Revelations, but only out of curiosity, since you have assured me that you are not interested in fomenting war and since I don't believe these end-times are ever going to happen.

My group is not on the same page because I have not yet presented all of my ideas. We have an upcoming meeting at which we will be discussing our plans and our studies. As for my church, I maintan communication with a pastor from Colorado, but I just recently moved to the Middle East (no, I will not give you a more specific location) and do not have an offical church. Right now I am very involved in a small house church and intend to stay with it, maybe I will start attending a larger one in a few months.

'Nuff said. Questions answered. Thank you.

As for me not being on this thread all day, I have a job. I need to sleep. I am not going to waste the time of my company by doing this, I will only be here on my time. I read and weigh everything that has been put on here, but since I am not on here all day I simply do not have to time to respond to everything, only to what I feel I need to. As for not giving people enough, I don't have enough. If some one here wants to help me get further into my research, they can give some real information on demons, but there hasn't been to much of that so far.

I never complained about you not being on the thread all day. I was just complaining that your coyness was leaving us to speculate too much about what your questions actually were.

Thanks. Now we have a more clear idea of where you are coming from. Some of your remarks, without any context, did make some of us fear you might be suffering from some mental or emotional disturbance. But it seems you are not. You are just a true end-times believer.
Thank you.
I never complained about you not being on the thread all day. I was just complaining that your coyness was leaving us to speculate too much about what your questions actually were.
What my questions actually were. . .

Well I had asked for any advice I could get on how I need to go about fighting demons, and I would appreciate any creditable information that can be given to me on demons.

Well pi is rougly 3. and rabbits do eat grass. and bats look like birds. If god was using lightning - which would probably be his best option - an iron chariot would protect you. What have these things been posted for anyway? Im too lazy to read much so if someone could sum it all up in a few lines that would be groovy. a good summing up can keep many a thread alive.
Listen. Every other culture at the time had pegged pi accurately to 3.14 at least. Cud is not grass. Bats look nothing like birds. Standing in an iron chariot would not protect you from lightning. It's make a lightning strike more likely to hit you. Also, isn't YHWH supposed to be omnipotent.

Well I had asked for any advice I could get on how I need to go about fighting demons, and I would appreciate any creditable information that can be given to me on demons.
Sure. The best method for fighting demons is a +x holy lawful evil outsider bane cold iron weapon. Advancing as Fighter would probably be best, as they have loads of AC. Invest in heavy armor and an +x Animated Tower shield.

On demons, you need cold iron and good weapons to overcome their Damage Reduction. Spell Resistance is usually 11 + Challenge Rating, so spells will only work about 50% of the time, unless you have Spell Penetration. Demons are not resistant to sonic damage, so use that whenever possible.

Sure. The best method for fighting demons is a +x holy lawful evil outsider bane cold iron weapon. Advancing as Fighter would probably be best, as they have loads of AC. Invest in heavy armor and an +x Animated Tower shield.

On demons, you need cold iron and good weapons to overcome their Damage Reduction. Spell Resistance is usually 11 + Challenge Rating, so spells will only work about 50% of the time, unless you have Spell Penetration. Demons are not resistant to sonic damage, so use that whenever possible.

chaotic evil outsider bane, not lawful evil. Demons, not Devils.

chaotic evil outsider bane, not lawful evil. Demons, not Devils.
D'oh, meant axiomatic, not lawful. Forgot that they changed the name of the enchanment.

Thank you.

What my questions actually were. . .

Well I had asked for any advice I could get on how I need to go about fighting demons, and I would appreciate any creditable information that can be given to me on demons.
Why don't you search for sites and forums on the subject. There are lots of sources and forums for end times believers, evangelicals, and other Christians who believe in demons. I found lots on google. There were many I didn't think you'd like, and there were many I didn't like, but I feel okay suggesting the following:

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/theologyOfDemons.htm
A short article on some things the Bible says about demons, with links to related articles, from a Christian online publication.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_demo.htm
A secular site, a database of descriptions of and about many different religions. This page outlines common Christian beliefs about demons. Judge for yourself whether they are treating the information fairly.

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/journals/v2n2.htm
This is an interesting site that apparently posts papers by theologians and scholars from many different Christian denominations. This page has an article I found fascinating, about the difference between a person possessed by demons and a person possessed by their own sinful nature, written by a Christian (he says he was formerly active in the Charismatic movement). I was particularly struck by the following paragraph:

"There is absolutely no biblical evidence to suggest that sanctification, the process whereby a Christian overcomes sin, is produced via the casting out of demons. Jimmy Swaggert, for example, had the demons of lust cast out of him by Oral Roberts, yet Swaggert fell into the same sin again. The witness of Scripture is clear - the source of besetting sins is the sinful nature, not demons. Never does the Apostle Paul in any of his Epistles which define the dynamic of the Christian life and experience encourage the casting out of demons as a necessary prelude for sanctification. Rather, he commands Christians to walk in the Spirit and to put to death the deeds of the sinful nature. (Galatians 5: 16ff.) In Romans 6, the power of baptism, not the self-proclaimed power of one engaged in a deliverance ministry, is the answer to the sins that plague Christians. In fact, in the sections of the New Testament that list the variety of ministries in the church (Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4) there is no mention of a "deliverance ministry."..."

Just an effort by an unbeliever to be helpful (and to encourage you to read accredited authorities, not ask random strangers).

It seems that we actually agree on everything but the credibility of The Bible, which is probably best left to opinions.

If the claims that Jesus made are accurately recorded in the Bible, and if He was God, then one's opinion of the Bible are pretty jolly important. In fact, the way that Jesus put it, our response to Him is the most important decision we can ever make. So when you say that it is 'best left to opinions', I sort of agree in the sense that every person can choose his own opinion (and we will perhaps have to agree to disagree), but I disagree in the sense that I think it hardly a matter of merely a few trifling opinions.



The existence of demons relies on the existence of magic, and many of the claims regarding the abilities of demons show them to be impossible under all (current) laws of nature. Also, from anaylsis of human culture, it appears that they are nothing more than mythical creatures developed by the human mind.

The existence of demons does not rely on the existence of magic (depending on what exactly you mean by the word 'magic'), particularly if you are referring to those chaps that tend to pull rabbits out of their hats. If, however, you are referring to a seance, one that is genuine (not rigged), then you might have a different form of magic, and you might have real demons at play.

Analysis of human culture with a bias will make demons appear to be mythical, but that is simply allowing a bias to form a conclusion. Based on science, we can say nothing about demons. If they exist, they probably operate under laws of nature that we know nothing about (yet anyway). Don't forget that science pretty much tells us that we don't know very much about our world, and not much more. Oh, sure, we humans sometimes think that we have gotten rather clever, since we are able to clone humans and go to the moon, etc., etc., but I feel it is one of the greatest myths of modern times is the belief that we have come to understand our world through science. Sure we have discovered quite a lot, but as we discover more, we realize that we are only just uncovering the tip of an iceberg. We might be able to describe the laws of nature, but we still do not know what they ARE.

Now, to assume that science has revealed enough about our world to show that demons cannot exist is not only revealing your lack of understanding of science and its limitations, but you are buying into that old mistake of making science say something that it simply cannot. There are, perhaps, scientists who make such claims, but it would be their bias talking, not their science.


I would be interested in the answer, for the sake of greater understanding.

I cannot prove that the Bible is 100% reliable. I can say that as far as my personal experience allows, I have discovered that it is 100% reliable. But there is much in the Bible that I cannot verify. I have had the opportunity to study it (indeed, I am currently doing this daily). I realize that much of the Bible is difficult to understand, and I am a long way from understanding it all. But what I can understand should be congruent with the whole message of the Bible. When I look at the issue of demons, and I ask myself whether the existence of demons fits into the big picture (or whether their non-existence would fit better), I come to the conclusion again and again that the existence of demons is far more likely than their non-existence. Their existence fits into the story, beginning with Genesis all the way to Revelations. If I was to read the Bible and insert 'mythical creature' every time the text mentioned demons (or Satan), I would end up changing the whole story, since it would not have been Satan that tempted Eve, but some 'demon' or evil within her that made her want to do what was wrong (even before she knew what evil was). Thus my argument is that the existence of demons is likely.

Well, not necessarily with it. They don't know your thoughts, but the do hear what you say (and see what you do). They know your weakenesses. By doing anything, you are 'sharing it' with a them.
Well, i meant what i said. The only power they ever have is a power you give 'em. They aren't a foreign foe to be vanquished - it ain't like that.

I have started a small amount of research on demons, but not nearly enough. I need to finish my current studies before I can begin the real detailed stuff on demons, also I have two friends that I know will want to study with me (or at least one of them will).

BEWARE: A DAEMONIBUS DOCETUR, DE DAEMONIBUS DOCET, ET AD DAEMONES DUCIT!

According to some Christian traditions, demonology, or the study of demons, is "taught by demons, of demons, and leads to demons". As such, you are taking a supreme gamble in studying demonology. As they say, 'Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here.'

-'Umbriel', Demonologist

BEWARE: A DAEMONIBUS DOCETUR, DE DAEMONIBUS DOCET, ET AD DAEMONES DUCIT!

According to some Christian traditions, demonology, or the study of demons, is "taught by demons, of demons, and leads to demons". As such, you are taking a supreme gamble in studying demonology. As they say, 'Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here.'

-'Umbriel', Demonologist

Now that could be a piece of advice really worth listening to. Why would anyone want to study the tactics of such an enemy? Wasn't that the downfall of Sauraman in the Lord of the Rings? I thought Tolkien made a very good point of it.

Now that could be a piece of advice really worth listening to. Why would anyone want to study the tactics of such an enemy? Wasn't that the downfall of Sauraman in the Lord of the Rings? I thought Tolkien made a very good point of it.
I guess that would depend on your nature, your center, your succeptibility, and your gullibility.
Tenet nosce. Stop worrying about whispers, for they ruffle your hair like delicate fingers.

I guess that would depend on your nature, your center, your succeptibility, and your gullibility.
Tenet nosce. Stop worrying about whispers, for they ruffle your hair like delicate fingers.

But that is what they said about the volcano.

But that is what they said about the volcano.
Well, i guess here's where i commence pointing out that i don't mean the fiction on Tolkien's part.
I imagine he was aiming the corollary at the abyss, although there's better places for that argument.

Satan is the Master Deciever. Do not believe his lies. He will tell you that Jesus lies. The Bible is not propaganda, even Satans knows it is true and that God exists.If Satan is a master deceiver, are you sure you are wise to his tricks? If you think he would tell you that Jesus lies, he'd just as soon do the opposite. The biggest joke he could play would be to corrupt religion to serve his purpose. And I would think all the religious wars of past and present are testament to this.

Look, I know that they aren't just figments of my imaginiation. I can't do anything but live my life, and that is what is frustrating me.

You think, you believe, you feel, you DON'T know what are they. Me neither, although I'm atheist, but we don't know.

You think, you believe, you feel, you DON'T know what are they. Me neither, although I'm atheist, but we don't know.
For some it'll remain an incessant and troublesome mystery, even if it is peripheral. And some will come to terms with the understanding that they needn't distract themselves away from it all their lives, and they'll jump right in and take the hits they need to and get it over with. But the rest is conjecture and using other peoples' nebulous attributions.

Boo!

Now that could be a piece of advice really worth listening to. Why would anyone want to study the tactics of such an enemy? Wasn't that the downfall of Sauraman in the Lord of the Rings? I thought Tolkien made a very good point of it.

Saruman, you mean?

When one deals with things that are believed by some to be mortally dangerous to one's soul, it is best to advise and excercise caution.

It could just be that the Church viewed such studies as being dangerous because it might make one sympathetic towards demons or because they believed that the only reason someone (not of the Church, as well as many of the Church) would seek out such information in order to seek a pact with the Devil and/or practice wtichcraft. Much as the study of explosives and nuclear weapons is a field of study which will draw suspicion if one's profession is not actively engaged with the useage of such devices (ie: bomb squads, combat engineers vs. dock workers and HS students).

As far as I know, no other religion holds such a belief towards the study of demons, so it is probably an abnormality generated by the witchhunters and inquisitors of late medieval/renaissance Europe.

Boo!

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/geist.gif

Saruman, you mean?

When one deals with things that are believed by some to be mortally dangerous to one's soul, it is best to advise and excercise caution.

It could just be that the Church viewed such studies as being dangerous because it might make one sympathetic towards demons or because they believed that the only reason someone (not of the Church, as well as many of the Church) would seek out such information in order to seek a pact with the Devil and/or practice wtichcraft. Much as the study of explosives and nuclear weapons is a field of study which will draw suspicion if one's profession is not actively engaged with the useage of such devices (ie: bomb squads, combat engineers vs. dock workers and HS students).

As far as I know, no other religion holds such a belief towards the study of demons, so it is probably an abnormality generated by the witchhunters and inquisitors of late medieval/renaissance Europe.
And it further propegates cadent fear, which is obviously useful in a religion that somehow extracts the "hell" idea out as a main reason for its "believers" to stay in line.

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/geist.gif
Demon caught on film...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4939937903169746344&q=car+ghost&pl=true

Demon caught on film...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4939937903169746344&q=car+ghost&pl=true
*FLORT*
That was funny!

My wife startles easily. I capitalize on that. She shouldn't, though, after all the sh*t she and i've seen.
Of course, i'm talking about the car. I haven't gotten to the other flix there yet.

I get a nightly visit from a succubus...at least that's what I call her.