NationStates Jolt Archive

its very stupid. how do people not realize that theyre not witches?

Same way people do not realise that sitting on your knees and praying accomplishes nothing.

Same way people do not realise that sitting on your knees and praying accomplishes nothing.

that is wherre you are wrong. i have experienced the power of prayer many times throughout my life

that is wherre you are wrong. i have experienced the power of prayer many times throughout my life

And many wiccans would probably say the same of their "power".

And many wiccans would probably say the same of their "power".

please dont compare christianity (or the other three main religions) to wiccanism

they are so very different

The onus is on the believer to provide evidence, after all extraordinary claims (such as the existence of all-powerful, supernatural antropomorphic beings or magical powers) require extraordinary proof.

Anyway, The fact that the james randi prize of 1 million dollars offered to the first person who can prove the supernatural remains unclaimed goes a long way toward refuting the existence of magical powers.

as for gods, Since gods are invisible, and the universe is no different than if they did not exist, it is simpler to assume they do not exist (see Occam's Razor).

Can a Believer take and show to you that which they carry in their heart? They cannot. You either feel the same way or you do not. There is no point in deriding what they believe just because you believe differently. To do so makes you little different than the wackos in Islam and Christendom out there who tell you that they'll "pray for your soul" because you do not believe as they do. There is no difference.

The key to being a respected Atheist, or being a respected member of any religion, is to respect the beliefs of others. To show an utter disdain is to tempt your enemies to call you a fundamentalist, and fundamentalism is one of the worst plagues man has ever laid upon himself.

That is why I say that you should not go about saying that you know for a fact that there are no gods. Why say that, when you can simply say, I do not believe there are any gods? Indeed, why disparage it, when those who possess a weak-willed temprament find strength in their religion to continue being useful members of society? Do you not benefit from the religions, if only indirectly, from such people?

"Education, n. That which hides from the foolish, and discloses to the wise, their lack of understanding."
-Ambrose Bierce

please dont compare christianity (or the other three main religions) to wiccanism

they are so very different

All religions share 90% identical content. It's the commentary that gets people worked up.

I am a pagan and i am strongly for whatever anyone wants to beleive in but when i here people refering to wiccan's of pagan's as devil worshiper or saying that we are responsible for evil then that make me sad because i do not try to convert people, but i still get christians comming to me and undermining my religion. i have a christian friend, it doesnt stop me being friends with him.

Oh and paganism and wiccan were around long before christianity, islam etc paganism is one of the first major religons around. :)

Last I heard the Church was TERRIFIED because Wicca was the fastest growing religion in Canada :P
I have no problem with it as a generally peaceful mindset, like Christianity and many other religions were SUPPOSED to be.
I think anything that gets people to act like decent human beings is a good thing, whether that's a rational, empirical, or spiritual approach matters little.
Blessed be, to all those crazy wiccans on the forums. ;)

please dont compare christianity (or the other three main religions) to wiccanism

they are so very different

They've done studies of people who pray, and people who do all the same actions, but simply repeat a meaningless word over and over again.
Both have positive outcomes.
So, if you can compare meaningless repetition and prayer, why not Christianity and Wiccan? They're both religious beliefs, at least. Calling each other evil and creating walls between each other isn't going to solve anything.

You're making the arrogant assumption that they don't exist.

An arrogance that smacks of the same arrogance in Islam that bore Osama bin Laden. An arrogance of the same species as that which in Christianity bred Witch-hunters and the Inquisition.


And you are making an arrogant assumption that they DO exist. The one that motovated both the people in the cases you described. What is the difference between those who think they don't exist verses those who think they do? For that matter what is the difference between a christian and a jew, for example. They both have the same amount of information to base their desigion on, which is zip. So join the ranks of the Agnostics!!! :D

And you are making an arrogant assumption that they DO exist. The one that motovated both the people in the cases you described. What is the difference between those who think they don't exist verses those who think they do? For that matter what is the difference between a christian and a jew, for example. They both have the same amount of information to base their desigion on, which is zip. So join the ranks of the Agnostics!!! :D

I'm not assuming that they do exist. I'm merely saying that things that I do not know about and of which I possibly cannot know about may very well exist.

I'm not assuming that they do exist. I'm merely saying that things that I do not know about and of which I possibly cannot know about may very well exist.

Your gods fall under the same category as the invisible pink unicorn (all praise to the invisible pink unicorn, who is both pink and invisible at the same time)and the flying spaghetti monster. They "very well could exist" but since like your gods, they were made up by human imagination, they probably don't exist.:rolleyes:

I don't have to respect beliefs that are logical fallacies.

Your gods fall under the same category as the invisible pink unicorn (all praise to the invisible pink unicorn, who is both pink and invisible at the same time)and the flying spaghetti monster. They "very well could exist" but since like your gods, they were made up by human imagination, they probably don't exist.:rolleyes:

I don't have to respect beliefs that are logical fallacies.

Then don't expect others to respect yours. Don't expect others to react kindly to you.

And for the record, Stalin, who killed twice as many people as Hitler, was an Atheist. Many of his killings were motivated by the 'religion' of Atheism.

Given what I read various American posters have written recently, I beginning to doubt if history is still taught over there.

Can a Believer take and show to you that which they carry in their heart? They cannot.

You do realise that when emotion and "gut" feeling has been held supreme over reason, bad thingd happen.

Education, n. That which hides from the foolish, and discloses to the wise, their lack of understanding."
-Ambrose Bierce

Well, if we are quoting from the Devil's Dictionary.

Relgion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

You do realise that when emotion and "gut" feeling has been held supreme over reason, bad thingd happen.

Well, if we are quoting from the Devil's Dictionary.

Relgion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

I can't recall denying either of those. I'm only saying that one should respect the beliefs of others.

"If men be such monsters with religion, imagine how terrible they would be without it."
-Benjamin Franklin

I can't recall denying either of those. I'm only saying that one should respect the beliefs of others.

Why ?

"If men be such monsters with religion, imagine how terrible they would be without it."
-Benjamin Franklin

can I interest you in some tiger repellant? I use ite every day here in pennsylvania and I have not yet once been mauled by a tiger!

please dont compare christianity (or the other three main religions) to wiccanism

they are so very different

Actually, there are many differences in ideology and practice, and, for the most part, Wicca comes out much better in the comparison. Wiccans do not start wars. They do not attempt to have legislation passed based on their sacred beliefs. They do not exclude people from attending, from the priesthood or from heaven based soley on sexuality. They do not insist that theirs is the only possible belief system and that all other believers are going to hell. They do not (and this is a biggie) proselytize.

I would say on those points, it beats Christianity hands down.

They do believe that you should treat others as you would want to be treated. They do believe that the earth is sacred and should be protected. They do believe in the healing power of the mind. They do believe that everyone should have equal rights. They are for the empowerment of women. They seek to find spiritual solace from nature. And more importantly, they work to actually practice those beliefs, not to merely give them lip service.

So certainly, especially for the sake of Wiccanism, do not compare it to Christianity.

I can't recall denying either of those. I'm only saying that one should respect the beliefs of others.

Why?

Or let me expand on that in terms of Wicca.

Why should I respect a belief that only seems to promote historical and scientific fallacies?

I can't recall denying either of those.

But in saying:

"Can a Believer take and show to you that which they carry in their heart? They cannot."

It seems to me that you are raising gut instinct and emotions far above reason.

Actually, there are many differences in ideology and practice, and, for the most part, Wicca comes out much better in the comparison. Wiccans do not start wars. They do not attempt to have legislation passed based on their sacred beliefs. They do not exclude people from attending, from the priesthood or from heaven based soley on sexuality. They do not insist that theirs is the only possible belief system and that all other believers are going to hell. They do not (and this is a biggie) proselytize.

I would say on those points, it beats Christianity hands down.

They do believe that you should treat others as you would want to be treated. They do believe that the earth is sacred and should be protected. They do believe in the healing power of the mind. They do believe that everyone should have equal rights. They are for the empowerment of women. They seek to find spiritual solace from nature. And more importantly, they work to actually practice those beliefs, not to merely give them lip service.

So certainly, especially for the sake of Wiccanism, do not compare it to Christianity.

Do bare in mind though that Wicca has only been around for 50 years or so, so those things really aren't comparable.

If "they can't patent" essential oils for healing in the U.S., it's most likely because (a) they're trying to patent the oils themselves and the oils are already well-known or are already patented elsewhere, (b) they're trying to patent a method of healing and haven't shown any "utility" for the method (for example, they don't have any data showing that the method is useful), (c) they're trying to patent a method of healing that's already been disclosed or patented somewhere else and thus lacks "novelty", or (d) they're trying to patent a method of healing that a skilled artisan in the field would have been led to in view of what's already known and thus is not "unobvious". I'd guess it's probably (b), lack of utility.

Novelty, utility and unobviousness are statutory requirements for patentability. Maybe your chemist friend should get some better advice about patent law.

BTW: I write patents and know what I'm talking about.


You may also want to think about how hard it would be to patent somthing that is already widly produced and easily made at home. Would cut a lot out of the profit if we all just went oh? Cabage juice heals this? Well ill just boil cabbage for the juice. This is why they wont say they work. There would be no profit in it for them and a loss in the profit they can make now. When people stop buying some medications, replaceing them with all natural things that can be don cheaply at home it would kill there profit margins.

Thank you Israeli Tribes for a powerful set of statements. I would tend to agree with you whole heartedly. I do wish to simply state that these non-traditional medicines may be much more psychological rather than actually spiritually caused, but this will probably be told with time. Well put though, I am in support of your ideas completely.

And if you would listen ( wich you dont seem capable of) I have said just that. I dont think any pagan believes its anything other than Psychological or just an effect of the natural items being used in some casses. At least non I know.

I call bullshit on Wicca. I also call bullshit on anyone who thinks that Parker Brothers has found a way to tap into the world of the undead. Please grow up.

I "call bullshit" on people simply flaming others and not bothering to elaborate on their viewpoints. Please learn how to lead discussions.

Originally Posted by Ritlina
Ehh, Both New Granada And Wikipedia Tend To Lie To Get People To Hate Something. I Don't Know If There ARE Sex Rituals In Wicca. I Doubt It Though. Why Not Ask One Of Our Resident Wiccans? Leafiana?

Sorry I must have missed this. I am trying to read through everything to be fair to everyone and hear you all out.

Um well, yes some practice sex magic. As far as I have been tought it is with the thought that the energy the body releases during sex can actually be put to use. I can understands the thought, not quite sure I believe it works. As for the seamen thing. Never heard it. Then agen that wikipeadia is hoky at most. Its a fluffy pagan book. meaning nonsense. May have some true things in it though.

08-02-2006, 6:17 PM #439
New Mitanni
And in case you're wondering, as a Catholic Christian I have seen my beliefs take far more abuse and ridicule than silly little girls prancing around naked in the moonlight will ever receive. The difference is, I don't object to anyone expressing an opinion on my beliefs or even attacking them. I can respond with reasoned arguments rather than "I feel it so I'm right "

When was the last time you were stoned? and I dont mean weed.

Shqipes

please dont compare christianity (or the other three main religions) to wiccanism

they are so very different

Oh dear , are you willing to send me a gift if I can prove you wrong? All religions are very alike. There are few that do not share similarities. I still stand by I don't want money but I do love gifts. Hand made are the best. But I bet one from you wouldn't be filled with good intentions.


Today, 8:10 AM #509
Gargantua City State
So, if you can compare meaningless repetition and prayer, why not Christianity and Wiccan? They're both religious beliefs, at least. Calling each other evil and creating walls between each other isn't going to solve anything.

Ok ill take that. As long as we all get peace.

Hey Man, When WAS This Thread Revived? I Don't Remeber Seeing It For The Last Few Days... Oh And AnyBodyButBushia, Please, Tell Us Why You Call Bullshit On Wicca, Instead Of Simply Saying You Are.

I "call bullshit" on people simply flaming others and not bothering to elaborate on their viewpoints. Please learn how to lead discussions.

Just in that kind of mood. I am not leading this discussion anyway. Just passing through. My experience with Wiccans is that they are usually very nice and non-violent people but I can't help but think to myself how foolish - but I feel the same way about all religions. The religion debate has been worn out on these forums a long time ago and I do not care to elaborate any further.

Today, 10:15 AM #514
Anarchic Conceptions

Given what I read various American posters have written recently, I beginning to doubt if history is still taught over there.

They teach here????? I had to fight for my education. Your better off teaching your self. and the goverment wants it that way. Its easyer to do what you want with a people who know nothing and are too lazy to do otherwise. Its horable I want to move.

Obviously, we are not teaching people to spell either in this country.

hey I have a learning disability with spelling. I do try. And may I point out you are the only person throughout the whole thread to say anything about it.

hey I have a learning disability with spelling. I do try. And may I point out you are the only person throughout the whole thread to say anything about it.

I am not making any friends here today am I? I don't mean to poke fun at your disability. It is just frustrating to see that so many in this country can't spell or find Spain on a map. You were just the unfortunate target of my venting, I apologize.

They teach here????? I had to fight for my education. Your better off teaching your self. and the goverment wants it that way. Its easyer to do what you want with a people who know nothing and are too lazy to do otherwise. Its horable I want to move.

Out of interest have you (or anyone else for that matter) ever read The Land of the Blind by Micheal Flynn? It is fairly good book, but not great so I don't suggest you track it down, but you come across it I'd recommend it.

Anyway, in the book there is a conversation between the two protagonists about sliding standards of American education, as well as a growing element in the culture which ridicules anything clever and encourages people to be lazy and feckless and content with being spoon fed information.

The conclusion given (bear in mind this is a novel about conspiracies) is that the whole "cool to be stupid" culture and the worsening standards aren't accidental, but a conserted effort by some to creat a nation that is entirely populated by 'techno-peasants' save for a cabal of people who make up the ruling elite.

Sorry I digressed a bit, just your post reminded me so much that conversation :)

Apology acepted. :) I do agree with you a lot though. I found out the graduation exam I had to pass to graduate high school was dummed down for future classes so they would pass!!! I can believe it! They should have to study to pass! But as I say our goverment wants it this way. Your book sounds a lot like the U.S. This is exactly what our goverment wants. I think it sickening. Even worse so meany people just go along with it just because they dont want the hasel of puting forth effort.

Personally, i can pinpoint Spain as well as a few other nations on the world map.


And i wonder if anyone has ever read the book "Wicca for One" that Blaze_Callisto quoted from in her post earlier? Unless you read a book actually written by someone who is "Wiccan" and not some guy who created a cult based on Wicca, don't say "it's only been around for 60 years or so".

Apology acepted. :) I do agree with you a lot though. I found out the graduation exam I had to pass to graduate high school was dummed down for future classes so they would pass!!! I can believe it! They should have to study to pass! But as I say our goverment wants it this way. Your book sounds a lot like the U.S. This is exactly what our goverment wants. I think it sickening. Even worse so meany people just go along with it just because they dont want the hasel of puting forth effort.

Well it is set in the US, Chicago mainly iirc.

It is an interesting thought experiment, but the occasionally cliched writing lets it down a bit. It is also written by a libertarian, which means the main protagonist is the traditional rag to riches person, growing up in the ghetto and becoming a rich, successful businesswoman. Though other then those two minor failings it is a good science-ficiton/thriller novel, certainly better then the typical derivative crap that is the norm for that genre

And i wonder if anyone has ever read the book "Wicca for One" that Blaze_Callisto quoted from in her post earlier? Unless you read a book actually written by someone who is "Wiccan" and not some guy who created a cult based on Wicca, don't say "it's only been around for 60 years or so".

However it has. The earliest reference to Wicca that I (and the OED) can find is from the 50s.

If you have actual, historical, proof to the contrary I would be most willing to look at it.

On matters of history, I'd trust a historian before somebody who's only credentials are they belong a religion.

Personally, i can pinpoint Spain as well as a few other nations on the world map.


And i wonder if anyone has ever read the book "Wicca for One" that Blaze_Callisto quoted from in her post earlier? Unless you read a book actually written by someone who is "Wiccan" and not some guy who created a cult based on Wicca, don't say "it's only been around for 60 years or so".


Are you going to provide MSs to substantiate your claim that wicca is significantly more than 50 years old, or is your claim false like the previous claims of the same thing?

Are you going to provide MSs to substantiate your claim that wicca is significantly more than 50 years old, or is your claim false like the previous claims of the same thing?

OK, I have to ask. What are MSs?

Manuscripts? :confused:


Though I doubt we will get a reply. I have challanged various people to give proof it is "the oldest religion" but they just ignore it or simply reassert it.

I think Wicca is not a truly occult philosophy..
I think it's to inspired by christian fairy tailes and generaly booring.

I think occult is most pure as occult sciences and as more abstract but less ambitious philosophy.

Like numerology, geomancy, astrology, alchemy , mysticism ,gnosticism
the idea of macrocosm and microcosm and not to forget humanism.


To little intelectualism and to much irrationalism.
It's more of a religion than an occult philosophy.
It's booring.
I more books
less chants.

I have started going to the library weekly agen and I think I will see about checking this book out if they have it. Sounds good. Thanks for the recommendation

The "wicca" 12 year old girls practice, often by either wearing lots of black clothes and make-up or religiously following every episode of "charmed" is quite cute. With a little luck the grls will still dress like that when adults - and yes, I have a weakness for the "Goth" look ;)
It is not a serious religion though.

Best answer I've read. Back in 7th grade, this girl insulted me 'cuz I wasn't Wiccan enough. In 9th grade I went out with a girl that said she was Wiccan; she definately was "Gothic" and watched Charmed every night it was on.

I think Wicca is absurd, just like Christianity or Hinduism. There's no such thing as magic, only advanced technology (Arthur C. Clarke, although it's not the exact quote). There are no spirits or power in chicken blood or what have you. I have done plenty of research on Wicca myself, and although it is absurd some things are pretty...Nifty, I suppose.

The concept of practicing skyclad (naked), having a spirituality through nature, and dressing in black because it absorbs more heat from the Sun to power their magic. If you're going to believe in nonsense, do it in a cool way like that

I'm a follower of Wicca, but not to the extreme that some nuts go. I "harm none", observe certain holidays(to mark the passing of the seasons), and I have a healthy respect for nature. When someone is causing harm, I do take it upon myself to go through a binding ritual, mostly to work up the courage to confront them about it myself. I light candles and burn sage during bad times. I sing, dance, and enjoy a bit of drunken revelry during good times.

The most extreme thing is the altar in my living room. It's very simple, but it brings enough of my personality into the shared living space to make me comfortable.

Wicca isn't all bad in the same way that Christianity isn't all bad. Some people just take things too far, and there is always a difference of opinion.

Ok, I dont know what to tell you about how old wicca is but paganism is about the dawn of time. I really couldent care less when any of it was established. Do you think there would be any pope or big cristain churches now if the people had looked at jeasus and said " how long has your religion been established?" LOL I find it silly. As I said befor. I think all people do well to have somthing to believe in. Especially if it has good teachings. So why not be at least tolerant with each others beliefs?

I think Wicca is not a truly occult philosophy..
I think it's to inspired by christian fairy tailes and generaly booring.

I think occult is most pure as occult sciences and as more abstract but less ambitious philosophy.

Like numerology, geomancy, astrology, alchemy , mysticism ,gnosticism
the idea of macrocosm and microcosm and not to forget humanism.


To little intelectualism and to much irrationalism.
It's more of a religion than an occult philosophy.
It's booring.
I more books
less chants.


Believe it or not, the origins of Wicca were around long before Christianity. Generic paganism(Roman, Greek, etc. belief systems) had a definite effect on the evolution of Christianity. Read up on camouflage conversion if you want to know about the holidays. Let's just say that Christ wasn't born on Dec 25 -- and Saturnalia/Yule wasn't invented by some nut back in the 50's.

Ok, I dont know what to tell you about how old wicca is but paganism is about the dawn of time. I really couldent care less when any of it was established. Do you think there would be any pope or big cristain churches now if the people had looked at jeasus and said " how long has your religion been established?" LOL I find it silly. As I said befor. I think all people do well to have somthing to believe in. Especially if it has good teachings. So why not be at least tolerant with each others beliefs?

The thing is, for many Wiccans, age is important. Which is why they create a false history for it that claims it is oldest.

The age doesn't bother me either, I'd probably hold exactly the same opinion if it were shown it is older than any other religion.

Ok, I dont know what to tell you about how old wicca is but paganism is about the dawn of time. I really couldent care less when any of it was established. Do you think there would be any pope or big cristain churches now if the people had looked at jeasus and said " how long has your religion been established?" LOL I find it silly. As I said befor. I think all people do well to have somthing to believe in. Especially if it has good teachings. So why not be at least tolerant with each others beliefs?

Exactly. As long as a belief system speaks of love for everyone and emphasizes harming no one, it seems pretty benign, if not beneficial. It just depends on what people actually do with the belief system. Some people forget the basic tenets and get caught up on minor rules -- that's always pretty dangerous.

The thing is, for many Wiccans, age is important. Which is why they create a false history for it that claims it is oldest.

The age doesn't bother me either, I'd probably hold exactly the same opinion if it were shown it is older than any other religion.


The age thing isn't the big deal. The who stole what from whom thing is a bigger deal. What I don't get is how people think some things were copied from Christianity when the same ideas existed LONG before Christianity came into the picture..

Just in that kind of mood. I am not leading this discussion anyway. Just passing through. My experience with Wiccans is that they are usually very nice and non-violent people but I can't help but think to myself how foolish - but I feel the same way about all religions. The religion debate has been worn out on these forums a long time ago and I do not care to elaborate any further.

Well, if you had stated just that in your first post, and not in the second as an explanation, I woudn't have flamed you. If you think Wiccans are foolish - well, that's your basic right. It was just the manner in which you expressed your viewpoint in your first post that provoked a rather rude reaction from me.

MetaSatan:
The thing you are talking about is Thelema, which is an anthropocentrist occult PHILOSOPHY. The thing we are talking about is a reconstructed belief system based on formerly existing actual RELIGIONS (although you might call Wicca as such a PHILOSOPHY as well) which were based on nature worship.

The only thing Thelema and Wicca have in common is the usage of magic (whether it does work or not), but in fact they are two completely different ideologies, and thus incomparable.

The age thing isn't the big deal.

I know, however some make it a big deal, by inventing a false history.

The who stole what from whom thing is a bigger deal.

I think 'stole' is the wrong word to use. Since that implies that other couldn't use it. Borrowed or adapted would be better imo.

But I also fail to see how this is a big deal either. All religions have borrowed or taken from other religions or cultures. I have no idea why everyone acts so shocked about it.

I think its more because members of the church have a tendancy to point pagans out as evil and deluded. Its just a way that the pagans seem to find validaty in there beliefs . I hope that comes accross right.

Ok, I dont know what to tell you about how old wicca is but paganism is about the dawn of time. I really couldent care less when any of it was established. Do you think there would be any pope or big cristain churches now if the people had looked at jeasus and said " how long has your religion been established?" LOL I find it silly. As I said befor. I think all people do well to have somthing to believe in. Especially if it has good teachings. So why not be at least tolerant with each others beliefs?

Well, sure. Any religion that is not a big monotheistic one can be considered "pagan", if we're going to define "pagan" by what it isn't. There were certainly plenty of non-monotheist "pagan" religions around previous to Judaism and even Zoroastrianism. The vast, vast majority of what are considered to be "pagan" these days are modern constructions in their own right or reconstructions of ancient religions. Either way, the 'neopagan movement' is fairly recent and probably began in earnest in the late 19th century when Aleister Crowely and Yeats and the Golden Dawn started doing their occult thing (cheers, mates). I agree though, saying "Oh, it's new, so it must have no validity!" is just reactionary crap and 'purchase justification' for whatever belief system they bought. There was a time when radical monotheism was just a handful of upstart little cults to be ridiculed and otherwise ignored or put en masse to the sword.

I do like the inherent pluralism in most of the modern pagan religions. It's a refreshing alternative to the "my way or the highway" attitude of the Abrahamics and the more... 'self-assured' atheists.

I know, however some make it a big deal, by inventing a false history.



I think 'stole' is the wrong word to use. Since that implies that other couldn't use it. Borrowed or adapted would be better imo.

But I also fail to see how this is a big deal either. All religions have borrowed or taken from other religions or cultures. I have no idea why everyone acts so shocked about it.

It just seems to be a common argument when someone decides to take a stab at Wicca. The usual "oh, your religion's bullshit because it stole stuff from Christianity." You've probably heard it (or tuned it out) before.

That argument is my gripe. I agree that different belief systems adapt in response to others,and borrow ideas from the past, and there's nothing wrong with it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Wicca evolved from a pagan form of demon-worship!!!!!! Yes, by the way I am an over-zealous Catholic! Wicca involves nature-worship, submission to a sick goddes called morgan, and uses of pentagrams and candels, similar to satanism!!! DO NOT JOIN THIS IMMORAL CULT!!! DO NOT SELL YOUR SOULS TO HE WHO PROCLAIMS HE HAS POWER OVER WIND, WATER, EARTH AIR AND FIRE WHEN THE ONE WHO CONTROLLS ALL IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ADMIT HIS DIVINE TRUTH!!!!

By the way, the definition of pagan is a non- evangelical, polytheisitic ritual cult, which essentially defines Wicca!

As for adaptation, Christianity borrowed alot from Judaism, so all of you who proclaim to be Chrisitians better study your theology..l.

You do not join a religion because it is "cool" all of you who do are annoying monkeys who have no brain and follow only WHATta a few glorified porn stars do (I AM REFFERING TO HOLLYWOOD PEOPLE!)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Wicca evolved from a pagan form of demon-worship!!!!!! Yes, by the way I am an over-zealous Catholic! Wicca involves nature-worship, submission to a sick goddes called morgan, and uses of pentagrams and candels, similar to satanism!!! DO NOT JOIN THIS IMMORAL CULT!!! DO NOT SELL YOUR SOULS TO HE WHO PROCLAIMS HE HAS POWER OVER WIND, WATER, EARTH AIR AND FIRE WHEN THE ONE WHO CONTROLLS ALL IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ADMIT HIS DIVINE TRUTH!!!!

Why is it that the Church had to wait for me to leave before it started slipping stuff into the Communion wine :(

As for adaptation, Christianity borrowed alot from Judaism, so all of you who proclaim to be Chrisitians better study your theology..l.


From what I am to understand, Christianity evolved out of Judaism, so it's not really even borrowing -- it's kind of like Christianity just crawled out of Judaism's ass one day. Wow...really bad and potentially offensive analogy...

I found it rather ammusing, even though I am Chrisitian lol

You do not join a religion because it is "cool" all of you who do are annoying monkeys who have no brain and follow only WHATta a few glorified porn stars do (I AM REFFERING TO HOLLYWOOD PEOPLE!)

If they were only doing what Hollywood stars were doing surely they would be practising "Dr." Berg's bastardised form of Kabbalah?

For a while hollywood was wicca, but people like the idea of having "powers" it gives them a god-complex of sorts.

For a while hollywood was wicca, but people like the idea of having "powers" it gives them a god-complex of sorts.

I know I don't really bother with celebrity news, but I really cannot think of a time when Hollywood was Wicca, nor can I think of a celebrity who proclaims to be a member of the religion.

OK, I have to ask. What are MSs?

Manuscripts? :confused:


Though I doubt we will get a reply. I have challanged various people to give proof it is "the oldest religion" but they just ignore it or simply reassert it.


Manuscripts bingo!

Religion is not there to make you feel powerful, or give you magical powers, it is there so that you can give the righful homage to your eternal creator.

Manuscripts bingo!

Ahh, Merci monsieur.

GOOD LORD!
Wicca is NOT the oldest religion, it originated in the Russian Steppes! Judaism is the oldest, followed by Animism (Babalonian religion)

"Dieus li vult!"
Let us spread our Chrisitan faith to the world! Evangilize! GOD WILLS IT!

Jews were around before the mesopotamians could even think of religion, Babylon did persecute them after all.

GOOD LORD!
Wicca is NOT the oldest religion, it originated in the Russian Steppes! Judaism is the oldest, followed by Animism (Babalonian religion)

Judaism?

Shum mishtake shurely?

(you'll find many religions older than Judaism)

Really? Like what.

GOOD LORD!
Wicca is NOT the oldest religion, it originated in the Russian Steppes! Judaism is the oldest, followed by Animism (Babalonian religion)

No Judaism is the second oldest. The oldest is the Church Of England, obviously.

Jewish people emigrated from Africa, it is thought now, and settled (after thousands of years of war, ensavement, freedom, followed by more war, ect.)
and brought the monothesitic view of a Surpreme Being with them

GOOD LORD!
Wicca is NOT the oldest religion, it originated in the Russian Steppes! Judaism is the oldest, followed by Animism (Babalonian religion)


Yes, clearly steppe hordes introduced wicca to europe (and clearly, judaism is older because jesus invented judaism beforep he invented the russian steppes or "Babalonion religion").

"Spake Khan: I hathe Defeataed eow useingen min magic"K"."

GOOD LORD!
Wicca is NOT the oldest religion, it originated in the Russian Steppes! Judaism is the oldest, followed by Animism (Babalonian religion)

Judaism, the oldest? Wow. I guess nobody told the Hittites and the other Canaanites, huh?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You blasted anglicans broke of so that pervert Henry the VIII could sleep with any woman he wanted!!!!!!

I think the oldest belief system is the lack of belief system. Before there was "before there was god", there was "there's nothing to think about besides eating and sleeping and procreating".

Judaism is the oldest, followed by Animism (Babalonian religion)

hahahaha, that's great kid

Really? Like what.

I think Hinduism is the longest religion going, but I'll have to check.

Also I think Zoroasterism beats Judaism by a nose.

The lack of a belief system is not a religion, it is simply a lack of one.

The lack of a belief system is not a religion, it is simply a lack of one.

I know, but a lot of people here seem to be conveying that the age of a faith validates it more. If that's the case, Atheism or at least Agnosticism has them all beat by a few billion years.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You blasted anglicans broke of so that pervert Henry the VIII could sleep with any woman he wanted!!!!!!

Rubbish, Jesus was english. And Jesus is god. Therefore the Church of England is the oldest. It's irrefutable.

Henry was only doing what Jesus commanded him to during a visit for tiffin. How the godless pope and his minions wish to spin the event is no concern of mine.

Zorastrianism may be the same age as Judaism, but it is most certaintly NOT older! Hindu came about a couple of hundred years after the settlement of India

Rubbish, Jesus was english. And Jesus is god. Therefore the Church of England is the oldest. It's irrefutable.

Henry was only doing what Jesus commanded him to during a visit for tiffin. How the godless pope and his minions wish to spin the event is no concern of mine.

I recall that quote from A Knight's Tale.

"The Pope may be French, but Jesus is English. You're on."

BLASTED ANGLICANS!!!!!
GO OPEN A HISTORY TEXT! ANGLICANISM ONLY CAME ABOUT SO HENRY COULD GET WHAT HE WANTED!
Also, several Roman historians mark a man named Jesus Christ as being executed by means of crucifixtion in Jerusalem, on charges of blashphemy. England was at this time cowering under the mighty Romans.

I think Hinduism is the longest religion going, but I'll have to check.

depends on how much change we allow, and whether any of the particular animistic belief systems of the world count as religions

BLASTED ANGLICANS!!!!!
GO OPEN A HISTORY TEXT! ANGLICANISM ONLY CAME ABOUT SO HENRY COULD GET WHAT HE WANTED!
Also, several Roman historians mark a man named Jesus Christ as being executed by means of crucifixtion in Jerusalem, on charges of blashphemy. England was at this time cowering under the mighty Romans.



How do you think he got to jerusalem?

Answer- Roman Roads.

Organized religion would be a better way to put it, I think

depends on how much change we allow, and whether any of the particular animistic belief systems of the world count as religions

Well I was more thinking about religions still around to day.

Though I could be wrong on that count too.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Stupid Anglicans!
Roman Roads Didn't Run All The Way To Brittania You Moron! Judea Was The Farthest Out Roman Province!!! Anglicans Are All Puppets Of A Corrupt Monarchy!

Dang, I gotta go, Ill be back later to finish this,
DIEUS CATHOLICISM VULT!

...

He's just soooooooooo cute.

Do you think we could keep him as the forum pet?

Pleeeease

http://www.englishsabla.com/boy-i/Smilies/Custom/cute.gif

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Stupid Anglicans!
Roman Roads Didn't Run All The Way To Brittania You Moron! Judea Was The Farthest Out Roman Province!!! Anglicans Are All Puppets Of A Corrupt Monarchy!



I suppose you want us to believe that the romans flew in airplanes to get to England and bring jesus to jerusalem.

Well, they didnt have airplanes back then!

Maybe they caught jehova and rode him?

BLASTED ANGLICANS!!!!!
GO OPEN A HISTORY TEXT! ANGLICANISM ONLY CAME ABOUT SO HENRY COULD GET WHAT HE WANTED!
Also, several Roman historians mark a man named Jesus Christ as being executed by means of crucifixtion in Jerusalem, on charges of blashphemy. England was at this time cowering under the mighty Romans.

Papist propaganda. It has been well documented that Jesus's family were originally from england, and had simply temporarily settled in Isreal to pursue furniture making and tin trading opportunities. Therefore he was English (though an expatriate).

Indeed, I refer you to the poem Jerusalem, which has been adopted by the High Synod in council, and therefore is the divine word of God.

Further, if Jesus, and therefore God, are not English, why is the bible in English? I've got you there, haven't I?

(Oh, and England was not cowering, we were just resting).

I suppose you want us to believe that the romans flew in airplanes to get to England and bring jesus to jerusalem.

Well, they didnt have airplanes back then!

Maybe they caught jehova and rode him?


...The Aqueduct

Papist propaganda. It has been well documented that Jesus's family were originally from england, and had simply temporarily settled in Isreal to pursue furniture making and tin trading opportunities. Therefore he was English (though an expatriate).

Indeed, I refer you to the poem Jerusalem, which has been adopted by the High Synod in council, and therefore is the divine word of God.

Further, if Jesus, and therefore God, are not English, why is the bible in English? I've got you there, haven't I?

(Oh, and England was not cowering, we were just resting).


At any rate, what we have is a blasphemous heretic.


Until the catholics seperated themselves from england and gave up their spiritual authority to the C of E, they were aware of and acknowledged the sacredness of england and the english.

Incontrovertable proof is to be found in the words of Pope Gregory I
"non Angli, sed angeli"

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Stupid Anglicans!
Roman Roads Didn't Run All The Way To Brittania You Moron! Judea Was The Farthest Out Roman Province!!! Anglicans Are All Puppets Of A Corrupt Monarchy!
THE POPE IS A BEAST

Well I was more thinking about religions still around to day.

me too. i was just thinking that if you allow any particular religion to evolve somewhat but still be the 'same' religion, things get a bit murky. we know that judaism evolved right out of at least one of the older religions from the region (it uses the same names for the gods, shares a bunch of the laws and the stories, etc).

and if we count indigenous belief systems as 'religions', then it gets really difficult. for example we know that the san people of south africa have produced similar religious rock art for at least 27,000 years. the australians might even have an older continuous record - i've heard numbers like 40,000 years tossed around.

At any rate, what we have is a blasphemous heretic.


Until the catholics seperated themselves from england and gave up their spiritual authority to the C of E, they were aware of and acknowledged the sacredness of england and the english.

Incontrovertable proof is to be found in the words of Pope Gregory I
"non Angli, sed angeli"

Indeed. Wise words, Mr. Granada.

me too. i was just thinking that if you allow any particular religion to evolve somewhat but still be the 'same' religion, things get a bit murky. we know that judaism evolved right out of at least one of the older religions from the region (it uses the same names for the gods, shares a bunch of the laws and the stories, etc).

and if we count indigenous belief systems as 'religions', then it gets really difficult. for example we know that the san people of south africa have produced similar religious rock art for at least 27,000 years. the australians might even have an older continuous record - i've heard numbers like 40,000 years tossed around.

And thus my Eurasian ethnocentracism is exposed :)


(though interesting information)

And thus my Eurasian ethnocentracism is exposed :)


(though interesting information)

it's ok, nobody pays any attention to the san. at least when it comes to religion/worldview/whatever. i wrote a paper on the subject for a religious studies grad class which essentially wound up being the first treatment of the subject that wasn't coming specifically out of anthropology.

it's ok, nobody pays any attention to the san. at least when it comes to religion/worldview/whatever. i wrote a paper on the subject for a religious studies grad class which essentially wound up being the first treatment of the subject that wasn't coming specifically out of anthropology.

Well I really should have guessed about non "mainstream" relgions that exist in many parts of the world (I assume)

*prays that the troll/flamer has left*

Anyone else getting that vibe off the new guy?

I guess my real question here is this: can this forum actually answer a question with something besides sarcastic remarks? It seems a few of the member are truly striving for a good discussion, while a majority seem to have no further goal then to insult either England, the Catholic church, Christianity, or organized religion in general. If you are willing to have an actual discussion, I have another question.
This is the question that is being asked, is Wicca the "oldest religion"?

My personal response is no, it draws from some religions that may be the oldest, yet Wicca is inherently a new religion, thus it being deemed neo-pagan. As such, the validity of that claim is falsified. Thoughts? Comments?
- Veritas
P.S. I wish to thank those of you out there striving for true discussion, I do appreciate your insightful comments.

*prays that the troll/flamer has left*

Anyone else getting that vibe off the new guy?

If I may.


Tell Me What You Think About This New Age Religion Called Wicca, Which Is Sweeping The Country. I've Done Some Research, It Looks Pretty Cool. Of Course, Ask The Average Over Zealous Christian, And You Won't Get The Answer I've Given. Possible Poll Soon.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Stupid Anglicans!
Roman Roads Didn't Run All The Way To Brittania You Moron! Judea Was The Farthest Out Roman Province!!! Anglicans Are All Puppets Of A Corrupt Monarchy!

Notice anything?

*prays that the troll/flamer has left*

Anyone else getting that vibe off the new guy?

I think he is a puppet.

If I may.

Notice anything?

Yeah, that was my guess too.

Yeah, that was my guess too.

Worst puppet ever!

At first, I thought the all caps was just to annoy people; but he really does seem to have a problem with it.

Worst puppet ever!

At first, I thought the all caps was just to annoy people; but he really does seem to have a problem with it.

Well I think he is just your run of the mill troll.

Though he did help me boost my post count ;)

Well I'm all for it. I'm not Wiccan myself. But I've met people who are and they're lovely. :)

My personal response is no, it draws from some religions that may be the oldest, yet Wicca is inherently a new religion, thus it being deemed neo-pagan. As such, the validity of that claim is falsified. Thoughts? Comments?

The term wicca doesn't even refer to a religion, but to a very vague moral code regarding magic. Gardenarian Wicca, Alexandrian Wicca, those are religions, and their practices and beliefs were only laid down recently. It does however seem likely that the common practices and symbolism in most forms of wicca do draw on pagan religions. But some Wiccans, notably Alexandrians, do not refrain from using Jewish symbolism for example.

I didn't read through the entirity of the posts, but I'm getting a pretty good idea of the message here.

I am Pagan/Wiccan. Have been for most of my life.(Most of it unknowing) and am quite past 14, thank you.

The thing that is true with any faith, including but not limited to "new age" studies, is that it transends over time. People have talked about energy waves and I've been invited to my fair share of rituals, I'll admit that. But I have never..considered...a Great Rite, nor met any one who has. There is, to my understanding, two basic camps of Wicca. Neither really bad, but just differnt approches. Mind, I'm hardly a leader or teacher, but I'll tell you what I know.

One is the public. Wide and open sabbats( kinda like masses, lots of food and fun) open information and so forth. I have friends who are into that, even if I'm not.

Then people like me, more solitary work. Reading, studying and so forth. Not so difficult. More lonely. Sometimes we have friends to hang with and talk with and sometimes not. Of my known circle of contacts, not one wears black eyeliner nor listens to Maylin Manson nor is obsessed with Death or sex. Not one. Maybe I'm lucky. Who knows.

Also, Wicca has no strongly set holy book or anything. (This is going to be vauge) It's about your connestion with the powers of nature, the male and female in all of us...so on so forth. Like any religion(I hope) there a spiritual aspect that transends words.

This being said. I have met( and quickly left) wiccans who use "skills", if you will, negitively. That's not "Charmed" fair, that's common sence. If a member of your church/congragation/whatever was doing bad things in the name of your religion, you wouldn't agree either. I've always just walked away. I figure it's not worth the confrontation.

Hoped I've helped. Not really talked bout this before so I kinda hope it goes over well....

Thanks all!

The Marylin Manson type wiccans as well as the Charmed ones are not real Wiccans, they probably don't believe or even understand the precepts of Wicca. I like to call them wannabes. Unfortunately, I think that most self named Wiccans are wannabes.

hi, I am one of those 'over-zealous' Christians from the initial post. Personally, I don't favour any form of 'magic' what does this mean? Well, cerainly I believe in magic, however it's use is entirely unbeneficial, as, of course, prescribed Biblically. I can judge no one however, as I believe in things considered 'stupid' (demon possessions, angels/demons, miracles, eternal struggle between good and evil, etc), personal opinion, 'over-zealous' though i may be, I doubt i fit your stereotype, and would appreciate not being judged by ones who have no other authority in the matter... and second, Christ has changed my life phenominally, and I tink that if you trusted Him with your heart, the return would be as you might say... 'cool'

I pray that God will bless your thoughts on the matter!

prayer is, in a way, a form of magic. A lot of modern Christians have ceased to believe that god can have visible or physical effects on the earth, even if they believe in his existance. If you are a traditional Christian who believes in the mirracles of Christ, then you believe in "magic". The thing about Wicca is that we believe everyone can be capable of such things.

I only ask that the love you feel from your religion you gift to everyone. Not in the form of religious pressure.(I'll spare you the "burning times", that was more or less economic bigotry) but I will ask you to be polite. The only complaint I've ever made is not that people disagree with me, but that they make an issue of the fact that I disagree with them.

Catholics practice ritual cannablism. They really are in no place to point fingers.

Catholics practice ritual cannablism. They really are in no place to point fingers.


LOL!

As we can see from this example, most disagreements are actually misunderstandings. I try to clear the misunderstandings, I don't mind the disagreements.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Wicca evolved from a pagan form of demon-worship!!!!!! Yes, by the way I am an over-zealous Catholic! Wicca involves nature-worship, submission to a sick goddes called morgan, and uses of pentagrams and candels, similar to satanism!!! DO NOT JOIN THIS IMMORAL CULT!!! DO NOT SELL YOUR SOULS TO HE WHO PROCLAIMS HE HAS POWER OVER WIND, WATER, EARTH AIR AND FIRE WHEN THE ONE WHO CONTROLLS ALL IS WAITING FOR YOU TO ADMIT HIS DIVINE TRUTH!!!!
Umm.... Go Away Please.

"Dieus li vult!"
Let us spread our Chrisitan faith to the world! Evangilize! GOD WILLS IT!
Please Man, Go Away!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You blasted anglicans broke of so that pervert Henry the VIII could sleep with any woman he wanted!!!!!!
No Really Man, Go Away.

If I may.





Notice anything?
? Dude. Seriously. I'm Devoutly Athiest. That Guy Is Probably Either A: Stealing My Typing Style. Or B: Attempting To Make It Look Like I'm Flaming/Trolling.

You Do All Realize I'm Attempting To Revive This Thread? Maybe You Could Possibly Oblige Me And Start Up A New (Educated) Debate On Wicca? Not About The Origins Of Religion/Christianity.

You Do All Realize I'm Attempting To Revive This Thread? Maybe You Could Possibly Oblige Me And Start Up A New (Educated) Debate On Wicca? Not About The Origins Of Religion/Christianity.

I think a discussion of the origins of Christianity pertains to a discussion of Wicca. Both evolved from the same pagan roots, and are thus quite closely related.

Consider, if you will, the timing of Christmas and Easter. Also look at the physical symbols that Christians have co-opted, the easter egg and the christmas tree. These two have nothing to do with the message of Christianity, they are holdovers from older, pagan rituals and beliefs. Even the crucifiction has roots in pagan beliefs of sacrificed gods. The whole "He descended into Hell. On the third day he rose again..." business has very similar overtones of the story of Persephone in Greek mythology.

Many of the same symbols are used in Wicca. The Winter Solstice is a time when the days are the shortest, so thoughts turn to the coming of the light, and new birth. When crops are about to be planted, sacrifices are offered to the Gods to insure we will have another good year. And so on.

I hate it with a passion. It steals from Pagan religions and Christianity without giving any due credit, and some of its adherents claim it's an ancient Pagan sect. In addition..the Goddess they worship is Morrigan..a war goddess. One who wouldn't abide by the amount of fluffiness in Wicca.

It bothers me even more that because it's the most vocal of the pseudo Pagan religions, people believe that it represents the Pagan belief-systems, when it's pretty much on its own.

*gives Lord-General Drache pierogies*

I know I don't really bother with celebrity news, but I really cannot think of a time when Hollywood was Wicca, nor can I think of a celebrity who proclaims to be a member of the religion.
just fairuza balk, and she's a "c" list celebrity at best.

Tell Me What You Think About This New Age Religion Called Wicca, Which Is Sweeping The Country. I've Done Some Research, It Looks Pretty Cool. Of Course, Ask The Average Over Zealous Christian, And You Won't Get The Answer I've Given. Possible Poll Soon.
I'm not quite sure what you mean.

You Do All Realize I'm Attempting To Revive This Thread? Maybe You Could Possibly Oblige Me And Start Up A New (Educated) Debate On Wicca? Not About The Origins Of Religion/Christianity.

Maybe if you quit typing like that....

Tell Me What You Think About This New Age Religion Called Wicca, Which Is Sweeping The Country. I've Done Some Research, It Looks Pretty Cool. Of Course, Ask The Average Over Zealous Christian, And You Won't Get The Answer I've Given. Possible Poll Soon.
What is Wicca?

Moran is part of the Germanic-Briton parthenon. One of dosens.

I find the line between Paganism and Wicca is found more in attitude and practice then anyhting more formal. Again, this is just from the research I've done.

I hate it with a passion. It steals from Pagan religions and Christianity without giving any due credit, and some of its adherents claim it's an ancient Pagan sect. In addition..the Goddess they worship is Morrigan..a war goddess. One who wouldn't abide by the amount of fluffiness in Wicca.

It bothers me even more that because it's the most vocal of the pseudo Pagan religions, people believe that it represents the Pagan belief-systems, when it's pretty much on its own.

First of all, Wiccans do not worship Morrigan as you said. Each person or group chooses which god or goddess they wish to name. Others don't bother naming the deity, only saying "God" or "Goddess".

Second, there is no stealing going on. Christianity mimicked ancient pagan holidays and symbols. Many of these symbols have survived through Christian and non-Christian groups to today. Nobody stole anything-- ideas are passed down. They SURVIVE.

While I do admit that there is a certain level of "fluffiness" going on, it is both unfair and uneducated to paint all Wiccans with that same brush.

Actual Wiccans, meaning those who follow some sort of rules and aren't just doing it for attention or to fit in, aren't really the vocal ones, unless you piss us off. Denying us the same rights a Christian church would get, for example. Basically, we're gonna bitch if we're being treated unfairly. That's it. Here's an example: Let's say we try to start an organization for pagan students on campus, so that we can all socialize, and those who wish to find social groups can meet other people and try to set them up. Now let's say a Catholic group does the same thing. They try to create an organization for Catholic students to socialize and meet new people. The Catholic organization is approved, but the pagan organization is not. Provided that all the paperwork is filled out properly and both group sof students behave themselves professionally, the pagan group would have a right to complain.

One of the differences between Wicca and Christianity is that, instead of one patriarchial, humanoid "Supreme Being," Wiccans worship twin male and female gods. Personally I can't relate to either concept, although it is refreshing to see some gender equality now and then. I can really appreciate the way Wiccans teach harmony and balance (the yin and yang working together) instead of creating divisions and power imbalances like some other religions. I consider myself pagan, but I don't believe in a goddess or anything like that--I believe in things like earth energy, and the universal life force, and the spiritual union of man and woman (sex). Yeah, I know phrases like "earth energy" sound really hokey, but just try googling "sedona arizona vortex" and you'll see that a lot of people have experienced this stuff firsthand out in nature. Just food for thought.