NationStates Jolt Archive

Here is some info most would find surprising:

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html

Not entirely sure what relevance my religion bares but since you ask I was christened into the faith of the church of England, however anyone who knows the history of the birth of the C of E religion will know that it's pretty hard to take it seriously so I'll officially deem myself as agnostic.
As for the issue surrounding the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories I feel the withdrawl is highly overdue. Those lands were never included within the Israeli territories when the state was set up in 1947 and countless civilians have died as a result of the Palestinain struggle to protect the scraps of land that they were left with including a friend of mine. I have to point out that I am not anti Israeli, I lived in the country for sometime and hold great affection for the culture and people who live there and I appreciate that it's important for the Jewish people to congregate in a country which they can be proud of and protect but what they suffered doesn't give them the right to steal land from those citizen who were living in the middle east prior to the founding of the state of Israel, neither is it acceptable to oppress those peoples way of life and religion and in effect form an aparitde. Of all the people in the world the Jewish should know better.


By “Those Scraps of land that were left” I assume you mean everything between Chechnya and the River Jordan correct? I would be perfectly happy if they went back to “Those Scraps that were left”. While they are at it, they can have wherever you live too. They are probably on their way already.

Here is some info most would find surprising:

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html



The only thing surprising about these is what domain they are on, well the second one anyway. Then again, we have always been a people willing to give a voice to the opposition, no matter how ludicrous.

They should at least account for Loan Guarantees as being distinct from Grants. It might also be a good idea to recognize that Israeli developed Military Technology is returned to the US.

Israel has perfect credit. If Arabs understood their finances they might someday have decent credit themselves.

It is unfortunate that we created the core for the Windows Operating System. I miss the good old days when the internet was too complicated for Moslems and Socialists to use.

I miss the good old days when the internet was too complicated for Moslems and Socialists to use.

This statement in itself goes to show what kind of a bigot you are.

It is my belief that the cycle of violence in Israel needs to stop. Israel has to be the adult here and withdraw from the west bank as well as Gaza (I'm sort of wishy-washy on Jerusalem; maybe it would be better if it were run by a UN-appointed board). The one thing I disagree with is the return of refugees to areas that Israel rightfully owns. To me it's an either-or thing, either accept the creation of a separate palestinian state and let refugees build there, or a united Israel and allow refugees to return to their homes. It is my belief that Israelis (and maybe palestinians) will object to the latter, so the former is how it has to be. Unfortunate, but necessary.

Ethnically Jewish, religiously Christian.

This statement in itself goes to show what kind of a bigot you are.


So you are offended. Which are you then, a Moslem or a Socialist? I would like to know whether I am addressing someone who tried to exterminate us half a century ago or someone who has been trying to exterminate us unsuccessfully for Fourteen Hundred Years.

So you are offended. Which are you then, a Moslem or a Socialist? I would like to know whether I am addressing someone who tried to exterminate us half a century ago or someone who has been trying to exterminate us unsuccessfully for Fourteen Hundred Years.
Dude, I've got some socialist leanings with regard to economics, and I have no problem with Jews. Why do you think socialists want to kill you? Muslims, I can understand thinking they want to kill you, many of them have come right out and said so, others have tried to do it, but what's the problem with socialists?

I have no formal religion; if anything I'm agnostic and spiritual. I believe in an ultimate creative force behind the big bang, I don't believe it has intervened since then, and I'm attentive to scienists' theorising about the universe since the big bang, because I think they're doing their jobs pretty well.

That said... I believe that science has adequately dismantled the notion of "race." DNA mapping of large sample groups has found more genetic diversity within 'racial' groups than between them. So treating anyone in a certain way because several generations of their ancestors lived in a region that lent itself to the adaptation of more skin pigmentation (for example) is an irrational bias. If society would mature to the point of accepting this proposition, then hopefully the practice of rewarding or penalising individuals based on their apparent 'race' would end.

As for religion; religion is an elective. Religion is a set of beliefs about life and the universe and proper behaviour, often descended from primitive superstitions and heirarchichal power structures that our ancestors, in their ignorance, invented to explain the natural world and assert control within their tribes or communities. Religious beliefs are taught, religious beliefs are learned. As such they can be un-taught and un-learned. They can be confronted with a more informed explanation of nature, and either upheld or overthrown based largely on the personality of the individual whose beliefs are being challenged. Many who are resistant to change or afraid to be weaned off superstition will remain skeptical, but one can hope that with time and education they'll come around.

The point is that 'race' is a fallacy, and 'religion' is a choice, and so neither should be legitimate grounds for entitlement or deprivation. I'm sure this will get me labelled an 'anti-semite' or something similarily reactive, because this argument undermines the legitimacy of zionism. I am not, however, trying to rationalise some inane prejudice against people who've passed down the Jewish religion. It just happens that a rational argument comes into conflict with the idea that any piece of geography should belong to any group of people who arbitrarily adhere to an elective religious belief. The only basis for a group of people claiming the 'own' a portion of land the size of a country should be "our ancestors have been here for X number of generations." History, not military occupation and not superstitious belief, should arbitrate a people's presence in a geograpic area. Honestly, watching the settlers on TV making religious arguments against their expulsion made it difficult to sympathise. "God" is not a real-estate agent, "God" is not a cartographer. Screaming that "God" meant for you to conquer and occupy land historically inhabited by others is a cheap argument.

So if people whose families have maintained a presence in the region now called Isreal want to live there, they should be permitted to. If those people happen to observe Judaeism then fine, though if they take to calling themselves a race then they're subscribing to a fallacy. And if, directly adjacent to that, people calling themselves 'Palestinians' have maintained a familial presence for a similar length of time, then their claim to that adjacent land is also valid. However if either group wants to lay claim to the land inhabited by the other group, that has nothing to do with 'god' and more to do with greed. And greed doesn't justify the occupation of land inhabited by another group.

And if anyone still thinks that makes me some kind of bigot; I live in Canada. Historically speaking, the aboriginal peoples were here first-- tens of thousands of years first-- and my own ancestors are immigrants from Europe and, arguably, military occupiers. So I can appreciate some of the emotional tension of the Isreali settlers in the occupied regions; if I were told tomorrow that Canada was being returned to its indigenous peoples and I had to 'disengage' back to Europe, I would be very upset. I might very well succumb to emotion and resist. It would be difficult. But, hopefully, I would adapt to my new life, and could eventually come to be at peace with the knowledge that, bitter though I may be, what had happened was not unjustifiable, logically speaking.

I admire the Prime Minister Sharon for withdrawing his people from occupied territory, and I hope he'll follow through. I hope that it will bring some stability and some peace to that region.

It is my belief that the cycle of violence in Israel needs to stop. Israel has to be the adult here and withdraw from the west bank as well as Gaza (I'm sort of wishy-washy on Jerusalem; maybe it would be better if it were run by a UN-appointed board). The one thing I disagree with is the return of refugees to areas that Israel rightfully owns. To me it's an either-or thing, either accept the creation of a separate palestinian state and let refugees build there, or a united Israel and allow refugees to return to their homes. It is my belief that Israelis (and maybe palestinians) will object to the latter, so the former is how it has to be. Unfortunate, but necessary.

Ethnically Jewish, religiously Christian.


I would hate to see the UN do to Jerusalem what they did to Rwanda. They can not be trusted with the matter, especially after the way they betrayed the Serbs.

The biggest problem with “Palestinian Refuges” is that they are neither Palestinian nor Refuges. Their “Right of return” should be enforced, against Jordan, Syria and Egypt. For that matter, most Lebanese Moslems should “Return” to Syria and let the Real Lebanese have their country back. It was a nice place, before all the Christians were kicked out.

You have to understand the nature of Haber Syndrome. He too converted to Christianity, though his motive was perhaps less honest, but the moral holds true. you can convert to whatever you want, but to the Nazis you are still a Jew and the Moslems will not spare you for your Christianity either.

Israel has been the adult and will continue to be the adult. Israel has stopped arguing and slammed its gates on the Palestinian “Negotiators” by disengaging and it will disengage in the West Bank as well, but it will not part for Jerusalem or move any of the necessary settlements in the West bank and sure s hell, will not expect peace from any of it. That would be wishful thinking and neglecting the common cause.

India will not gain peace by giving Pakistan, or its own version of Palestinians, the Kashmiri, Kashmir. Russia can not buy peace for the wages of Chechnya. Thailand has had its own door opened and will not have peace for its Buddhists. Africa will never no peace so long as Arab Slavers profit off of them. Ivory in particular has been betrayed once too often in the name of French “Peacekeeping”.

There will be no peace, except perhaps for those Christians Lucky Enough to be Granted Graves. The Serbs had not been so lucky.

Dude, I've got some socialist leanings with regard to economics, and I have no problem with Jews. Why do you think socialists want to kill you? Muslims, I can understand thinking they want to kill you, many of them have come right out and said so, others have tried to do it, but what's the problem with socialists?


The National Socialist German Workers Party for a start. That I do not distinguish between Communism and Socialism Economically, Consider both unworkable, blame the former for why the European Union is absorbing so many Turks, who are frankly turning the place in to Eurabia, which makes Europe our inevitable enemy.

You know that Marxism only looked good on paper because Marx was fudging the math right?

The National Socialist German Workers Party for a start. That I do not distinguish between Communism and Socialism Economically, Consider both unworkable, blame the former for why the European Union is absorbing so many Turks, who are frankly turning the place in to Eurabia, which makes Europe our inevitable enemy.

You know that Marxism only looked good on paper because Marx was fudging the math right?
I know that pure socialism is unworkable. Still, just because someone admires the idea of socialism doesn't make him your enemy.

No, Israel was built by Jewish people in a desert where there was previously, nothing and America never gave Israel support until the Yom Kippur war and then only after the fighting had pretty much ended.

America did sell Israel some fighter planes with Kennedy in office and small arms when Carter had to find someone to help him arm the Iranian Theocrats, but for the most part, the Islamic Excuse that the billion or so of them failed to destroy Israel, America, is about as plausible as their claims that Pokemon was created by Japanese Jews to corrupt their children.


http://www.dailyrotten.com/articles/archive/48969.html

Interesting...
Barbie is a Jewish toy and is hereby banned in the Kingdom.

It is my belief that the cycle of violence in Israel needs to stop. Israel has to be the adult here and withdraw from the west bank as well as Gaza (I'm sort of wishy-washy on Jerusalem; maybe it would be better if it were run by a UN-appointed board). The one thing I disagree with is the return of refugees to areas that Israel rightfully owns. To me it's an either-or thing, either accept the creation of a separate palestinian state and let refugees build there, or a united Israel and allow refugees to return to their homes. It is my belief that Israelis (and maybe palestinians) will object to the latter, so the former is how it has to be. Unfortunate, but necessary.

Ethnically Jewish, religiously Christian.

And when nothing gets done, we'll all be happy. TRAITOR! You must burn at the stake! Well, I'd like to at least... Anyone who leaves Judaism should be burned or crucified...or both.

That said... I believe that science has adequately dismantled the notion of "race." DNA mapping of large sample groups has found more genetic diversity within 'racial' groups than between them. So treating anyone in a certain way because several generations of their ancestors lived in a region that lent itself to the adaptation of more skin pigmentation (for example) is an irrational bias. If society would mature to the point of accepting this proposition, then hopefully the practice of rewarding or penalising individuals based on their apparent 'race' would end.

Indeed, race is a whole load of hateful crap. There are no blacks, whites, yellows, or reds. There are just humans. Sheesh we're the only animal that cares how each other looks outside mating and marriage.

[QUOTE=Yeru Shalayim]By “Those Scraps of land that were left” I assume you mean everything between Chechnya and the River Jordan correct? I would be perfectly happy if they went back to “Those Scraps that were left”. While they are at it, they can have wherever you live too. They are probably on their way already.
Considering the size of Palestine prior to the mass immigration of the Jewish people to their country I'd certainly reinforce that they have indeed been left with a scrap of land... two sraps if you want to be finicky about the issue. And what the hell are you talking about with this "I assume you mean everything between Chechnya and the river Jordan" rubbish? Are you implying that it would be rational to expect all those Palestinians to move their lives and families (try to remember that they are people too) from the middle east to southern Russia in order to accomodate the influx of Zionist's?
Can you see the problem or are the blinkers still tightly in place?

I couldn't find a recent thread for this, so here is my own. What is your opinion on Israel's alleged occupation of Palestinian land? The Gaza withdrawl? A potential West Bank withdrawl? ...Please keep it calm, mainly just your opinion. Also state your religion.

I'm an atheist Jew. I think that the Gaza withdrawl was a very good thing. There weren't many Israelis there anyway. As for the West Bank, I think Israel should let go of outposts and small bits of land, but still keep major areas. I don't think Israel is an occupier. I think that Israel should peacefully coexist with the Palestinians. No seperate homeland for them in Israel's current borders. They have several other tax-free nations to go to.


how can you be an atheist jew atheist means having no religion and if you didnt know judaisim is a religion

how can you be an atheist jew atheist means having no religion and if you didnt know judaisim is a religion
Ah, that is a very common misconception.

a·the·ist [áythiist]
n
unbeliever in God or deities: somebody who does not believe in God or deities

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

how can you be an atheist jew atheist means having no religion and if you didnt know judaisim is a religion
This has already been stressed but I'll say it again. Being Jewish isn't as simple as being a Christian or Muslim in that it refers to a bloodline as well as a belief system. If your mother is Jewish then she passes down the Jewish bloodline to you and if you are female you will pass it down to your children. Being Jewish doesn't necessarily mean that you are religious so it is possible to be an atheist Jew as odd as it sounds!

Right now Canada is setting up special Sharia Courts for Moslems. How long before Toronto is the next “Ancient Homeland Since Time Immemorial”?

http://www.nosharia.com/

Considering the size of Palestine prior to the mass immigration of the Jewish people to their country I'd certainly reinforce that they have indeed been left with a scrap of land... two sraps if you want to be finicky about the issue. And what the hell are you talking about with this "I assume you mean everything between Chechnya and the river Jordan" rubbish? Are you implying that it would be rational to expect all those Palestinians to move their lives and families (try to remember that they are people too) from the middle east to southern Russia in order to accomodate the influx of Zionist's?
Can you see the problem or are the blinkers still tightly in place?


The first “Palestine Pound” was printed in Hebrew by Jews. “Palestinians” have moved themselves, from Jordan and Syria and Egypt to Israel, in order to commit genocide and nothing more.

As I have said many times and grow tired of emphasizing, the Palestinians Could Not Survive in “Palestine” without Israeli Technology. There was a desert here before that could not support even a small fraction of the Palestinians, so it is physically impossible that they could have been from here and pointing at two thousand year old ruins claiming they were ploughing fields of green here in the thirties is preposterous; as is anyone stupid enough to take them at face value.

Now in case you have not been paying attention to the world around you, the same war is being fought in Chechnya and Darfur and India and Serbia and now Thailand. They have plenty of land, more than the Soviets ever had. Israel is all we have, a country that you can cross on foot without rest, so leave us alone or we will blow every threat to us off the face of the earth.

The first “Palestine Pound” was printed in Hebrew by Jews. “Palestinians” have moved themselves, from Jordan and Syria and Egypt to Israel, in order to commit genocide and nothing more.

As I have said many times and grow tired of emphasizing, the Palestinians Could Not Survive in “Palestine” without Israeli Technology. There was a desert here before that could not support even a small fraction of the Palestinians, so it is physically impossible that they could have been from here and pointing at two thousand year old ruins claiming they were ploughing fields of green here in the thirties is preposterous; as is anyone stupid enough to take them at face value.

Now in case you have not been paying attention to the world around you, the same war is being fought in Chechnya and Darfur and India and Serbia and now Thailand. They have plenty of land, more than the Soviets ever had. Israel is all we have, a country that you can cross on foot without rest, so leave us alone or we will blow every threat to us off the face of the earth.

Israel was built not only by the Israelites but also the Cainanites who are the Palestinian's ancestors. The Israelites and the Cainanites decended from the same people, they were half brothers or did you miss that lesson? As for blowing every threat off the face of the earth well unfortunately it looks like you have your work cut out and it's all thanks to individuals who share your attitude you biggot.

Israel was built not only by the Israelites but also the Cainanites who are the Palestinian's ancestors. The Israelites and the Cainanites decended from the same people, they were half brothers or did you miss that lesson? As for blowing every threat off the face of the earth well unfortunately it looks like you have your work cut out and it's all thanks to individuals who share your attitude you biggot.The Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites? Can you support that? As far as I know, they're descendants of the Arab invaders...

I know that pure socialism is unworkable. Still, just because someone admires the idea of socialism doesn't make him your enemy.


I am a Jew first. If I were a capitalist first Socialism would be my first enemy, but I am not a Capitalist at all. There are premises to Capitalism and Socialism that each have their place and certain scales within which they apply.


A Kibbutz in Israel for example had to operate under a certain degree of Socialism in order to be functionally independent in a time when transport between these involved fending off Nomad Raiders. The time for that passed however, when Israel was finally able to assert its military defense of its borders, the logistics were greatly simplified and the IDF Engineers laid out well fortified roads to facilitate transport, so eventually it became more practical to privatize and allowed Israel t become a considerable economic force, which made its current arrangements with America mutually beneficial. Essentially, the Socialism that worked on a small scale, but on even a scale as large as Israel, was not practical, in fact would have been disastrous.

As it tends to be. Politically as well, you can not protect the rights of a true minority, while catering to the will of the majority. At least not for very long. A balance of sorts must eventually be struck.

I like to keep everything, economics to politics, on as small a scale as possible. I am all for slicing up regions between populations allowing each its own autonomy and a certain amount of Isolation. Unity, is the slayer of diversity.

The Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites? Can you support that? As far as I know, they're descendants of the Arab invaders...


Agreed in principle, though their leadership has been mostly Egyptian.

Israel is all we have, a country that you can cross on foot without rest, so leave us alone or we will blow every threat to us off the face of the earth.
Hmmm..... this all sounds quite familiar, oh yes now I remember Hitler considered the Jewish people to be a threat didn't he??!! Yes it's all coming back. It seems to me that this kind of radical attitde was were the holocaust stemed from, do you not think you should be adopting a more forward thinking attitude that might help put an end to mass genocide rather then ensuring that it continues?

Israel was built not only by the Israelites but also the Cainanites who are the Palestinian's ancestors. The Israelites and the Cainanites decended from the same people, they were half brothers or did you miss that lesson? As for blowing every threat off the face of the earth well unfortunately it looks like you have your work cut out and it's all thanks to individuals who share your attitude you biggot.


The Canaanites predate desalination by about three thousand three hundred years. There are no Canaanites today. It looks like we are the primary descendents of the Canaanites. At least according to genetic tests.

You see, before settling in Egypt, we shared a common stock with the Canaanites, explained by Jacob and the incident involving the rape of his daughter and her brother’s revenge. Though we did utterly crush the militant cities that first welcomes us home, Jericho for example, we always accepted converts and spared unmarried women. Archeologically we can see a sort of gradual replacement of Canaanite art and artifacts with recognizably Jewish ones. Not a sudden eradication, but gradual replacement. Solomon still had Canaanite Servants, but these vanished over time, obviously assimilated. Finally, we translate Canaanite writing, sing Hebrew as a Template. Our Language, is an evolved version of theirs.

Arabs however are from the Arabian Peninsula. According to our ancient writings, they were Nomads, they still were in thirties and forties. In a way, they still are. They have always been the people who live where no one else would and wherever they go, they make such a place.

What is our most horrible creation? Some here, many in fact, would say “Christianity”. Others might say The Atomic Bomb. More informed people might say “Chemical Weapons”. I say the core of the Modern Windows Operating System. Without it, how many of these dim people who support “Palestinianism” would even be online?

Hmmm..... this all sounds quite familiar, oh yes now I remember Hitler considered the Jewish people to be a threat didn't he??!! Yes it's all coming back. It seems to me that this kind of radical attitde was were the holocaust stemed from, do you not think you should be adopting a more forward thinking attitude that might help put an end to mass genocide rather then ensuring that it continues?


Hitler attacked Russia, so are the Arabs. Hitler idealized Aryanism, so do the Arabs who threaten India. Hitler supported slavery for “lesser races” that he did not see as a threat, so do Arabs, they took forty thousand African slaves last year in Darfur alone. Hitler cut a deal with Yasser Arafat’s Uncle to enact “The Final Solution” in Israel, his Nephew continued that until he died only recently, passing office to a man who wrote regularly of how he agreed with the Shoah. Did I mention that the best selling book in Turkey after the Koran is Mein Kampf?

I am talking to the wrong person. You need to become better informed on these matters before you draw such disgustingly insulting comparisons.

“Never Again”, it is a good motto. We shall insure that it never happens again, by defending ourselves with all of the wonderful weapons we have invented. I believe, that there is a reason we were so instrumental in creating modern warfare and modern life in general. Fate has granted us a remarkable boon and advantage. Call it God or Karma or whatever you will, but the fact is, a remarkable set of coincidences has placed in our hands the means, to end this Fourteen Hundred Year Islamic Reich, once and for all.


http://christianactionforisrael.org/images/mufti2.jpg

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia9.gif

http://www.coranix.com/113/nazislam.jpg

http://www.malas-noticias.com.ar/islam-nazi1.jpg

http://www.arkaisk.dk/islam=nazi2.jpg

http://www.dgorton.com/white_south/white_jpg/kuklux/kuklux.jpg

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t790/T790871A.jpg

Here is what Wikipedia says of Palestinian ancestry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

The ancestry of the Palestinians

For the most part, the Arabization of the Palestinians began in Umayyad times. Increasing conversions to Islam among the local population, together with the immigration of Arabs from Arabia and inland Syria, led to the replacement of Aramaic by Arabic as the area's lingua franca. Among the cultural survivals from pre-Arab times are the significant Palestinian Christian community (and smaller Jewish and Samaritan ones) as well as Aramaic loanwords in the local dialect. Palestinians, like most other Arabic speakers, thus combine pre-Arab and Arab ancestry; the precise mixture is a matter of debate, on which genetic evidence (see below) has begun to shed some light, apparently confirming Ibn Khaldun's widely accepted argument that most Arabic speakers descend mainly from acculturated non-Arabs.

The Palestinian Bedouin, however, are much more securely known to be Arab by ancestry as well as by culture; their distinctively conservative dialects and pronunciation of qaaf as gaaf group them with other Bedouin across the Arab world and confirm their separate history. Arabic onomastic elements began to appear in Edomite inscriptions starting in the 6th century BC, and are nearly universal in the inscriptions of the Nabataeans, who arrived there in the 4th-3rd centuries BC. It has thus been suggested that the present day Bedouins of the region may have their origins as early as this period. A few Bedouin are found as far north as Galilee; however, these seem to be much later arrivals, rather than descendants of the Arabs that Sargon II settled in Samaria in 720 BC.

As genetic techniques have advanced, it has become possible to look directly into the question of the ancestry of the Palestinians. In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that Jews and Palestinians (and in some cases other Levantines) are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs of Arabia or to Europeans. (this collection contains more links to genetic studies of Jewish and middle eastern populations.) These studies look at the prevalence of specific inherited genetic differences (polymorphism) among populations, which then allow the relatedness of these populations to be determined, and their ancestry to be traced back (see population genetics). These differences can be the cause of genetic disease or be completely neutral (see Single nucleotide polymorphism) ; they can be inherited maternally (mitochondrial DNA), paternally (Y chromosome), or as a mixture from both parents ; the results obtained may vary from polymorphism to polymorphism. One study on congenital deafness identified an allele only found in Palestinian and Ashkenazi communities, suggesting a common origin ; an investigation of a Y-chromosome polymorphism found Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic populations to be particularly closely related ; a third study, looking at Human leukocyte antigen differences among a broad range of populations, found Palestinians to be particularly closely related to Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews, as well as Middle-Eastern and Mediterranean populations. (The latter study by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena has been the subject of intense controversy, it was retracted by the journal and removed from its website, leading to further controversy; the main accusations made were that the authors used their scientific findings to justify making one-sided political proclamations in the paper; that the retraction followed lobbyist pressure because the results contradicted certain political beliefs; some suggested that the broad scientific interpretation was based on too narrow data, whereas others support the scientific content as valid.) If this close relatedness is true, it would confirm both Jews' and Palestinians' historical claims, suggesting a common Northwest Semitic ancestry. However, the results are complex, much work remains to be carried out, and partial results can be interpreted to suit diverse political agendas.

One point in which the two populations appear to contrast is in the proportion of sub-Saharan African genes which have entered their gene pools. One study found that Middle Eastern Arabs (specifically Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bedouin), unlike other Middle Eastern populations (specifically Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Azeris, Georgians, and Near Eastern Jews), had what appears to be a substantial gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa (amounting to 10-15% of lineages) within the past three millennia, possibly due to the slave trade.

you don,t say.

I don’t. I think the samples were too small featuring too many “Upper Class” Egyptian Palestinians.

The slavery and Arabization aspect however I can clearly see.

i don,t belive that,

i don,t belive that,


Don’t believe what exactly? That the studies did not have a large enough or adequately scattered sample base or that the Palestinian population has been effected by the bed warming habits of Arab slave traders?

Yeru, sounds like you went to some right wing orthodox Jewish school when you were young and you have been thought to hate.

The reality is that both Arabs and Jews are descendants of Abraham, one from Ishmael and the other from Issac.

Quote from the article below :

"Looking into the Bible, we saw from Genesis 12 that the God of Abraham declared that He owned the land and that He retained the right to give it to any people He chose. Further, He promised Abraham, "To your descendants I will give this land" (verse 7)."

Which means all descendants of Abraham, not just Issac.


http://www.ucg.org/wnp/wnp0209/land.html

It's funny on another thread that was more or less bashing mexico I pointed out that Texas, most of Florida, New mexico, California and bit and bobs all over the southern US were taken from Mexico. And what was the response from many of the American posters... Right of conquest mate, legitimate spoils of war etc. A conflict incidentaly that the US has initiated.

I admit that the situation in Israel is modern and therefore more complicated, but you have to remember when these terretories were taken. They were taken in a time when the very existance of the country was under threat. When other nations had stated thier intention to destroy them.

Again I know it's complicated, but I am just saying it is funny how the rules change when it suits. How things that happen a little longer ago can be brushed aside with comments such as 'It was a long time ago and there is nothing we can do about it now.'

Funny that when the US find Afganistan horbouring terrorist that aim to attack them occupation and invasion is ok. Try living with hill overlooking your home where people are shelling you, and the country responsible for that land refuses to do anything about it. Your telling me you don't go in there and sort it out, then hold that land.

Bit of a ramble but it's early here!

Yet again I say it is complicated, so there is no simple solution, all I do say is terrorism is not going to do anything.

Yeru, sounds like you went to some right wing orthodox Jewish school when you were young and you have been thought to hate.

The reality is that both Arabs and Jews are descendants of Abraham, one from Ishmael and the other from Issac.

Quote from the article below :

"Looking into the Bible, we saw from Genesis 12 that the God of Abraham declared that He owned the land and that He retained the right to give it to any people He chose. Further, He promised Abraham, "To your descendants I will give this land" (verse 7)."

Which means all descendants of Abraham, not just Issac.


http://www.ucg.org/wnp/wnp0209/land.html



I do not care who you think Arabs are descended from. You have no right to Israel, no right to Chechnya, no right to Serbia, no right to Darfur, no right to Lebanon, no right to Thailand and no right to Kashmir and all of these places have the right to treat you like the genocidal invaders you are and defend themselves.

It's funny on another thread that was more or less bashing mexico I pointed out that Texas, most of Florida, New mexico, California and bit and bobs all over the southern US were taken from Mexico. And what was the response from many of the American posters... Right of conquest mate, legitimate spoils of war etc. A conflict incidentaly that the US has initiated.

I admit that the situation in Israel is modern and therefore more complicated, but you have to remember when these terretories were taken. They were taken in a time when the very existance of the country was under threat. When other nations had stated thier intention to destroy them.

Again I know it's complicated, but I am just saying it is funny how the rules change when it suits. How things that happen a little longer ago can be brushed aside with comments such as 'It was a long time ago and there is nothing we can do about it now.'

Funny that when the US find Afganistan horbouring terrorist that aim to attack them occupation and invasion is ok. Try living with hill overlooking your home where people are shelling you, and the country responsible for that land refuses to do anything about it. Your telling me you don't go in there and sort it out, then hold that land.

Bit of a ramble but it's early here!

Yet again I say it is complicated, so there is no simple solution, all I do say is terrorism is not going to do anything.


Texas declared independence from a Dictator who was just a shabby imitation of Napoleon, then joined America willingly.

Mexico started the war with America by marching soldiers across American lines, in a way they are still doing this today.

Then, America “Paid” them for the land, so Mexico really has no one to blame but themselves and La Raza, the only thing that makes them better than Palestinians, is that they are not killing large numbers of innocent people, yet. Islam is recruiting them as we speak, by way of Venezuela.

Texas declared independence from a Dictator who was just a shabby imitation of Napoleon, then joined America willingly.

Mexico started the war with America by marching soldiers across American lines, in a way they are still doing this today.

Then, America “Paid” them for the land, so Mexico really has no one to blame but themselves and La Raza, the only thing that makes them better than Palestinians, is that they are not killing large numbers of innocent people, yet. Islam is recruiting them as we speak, by way of Venezuela.
Look on it another way. Mexico lets people from another country settle in it's borders. when there is enough of them they revolt and want the land they have settled to be part of the country they came from. If I draw a line in the middle of Canada then attack the Canadias for crossing it, have I not initiated the war by my actions?
They paid them for the land, funny the deal you can get from some one when holding a gun to thier head.
But all that said they did not then embark on terrorist activities against the civilian population of the rest of the US.
Bit of a ramble I know but caffine buz at the moment.

Look on it another way. Mexico lets people from another country settle in it's borders. when there is enough of them they revolt and want the land they have settled to be part of the country they came from. If I draw a line in the middle of Canada then attack the Canadias for crossing it, have I not initiated the war by my actions?
They paid them for the land, funny the deal you can get from some one when holding a gun to thier head.
But all that said they did not then embark on terrorist activities against the civilian population of the rest of the US.
Bit of a ramble I know but caffine buz at the moment.


“Mexico” did not exist. Spain existed. Then Spain stopped existing and all that remained was a dictator who did not see his own people as human. The driving force behind Texican Cessation was the Yankee Prerogative, but you can’t say that the wonderful policies responsible for the glorious state of Mexico today did not encourage them.

Mexico lost a war against Texas and had no hope of ever developing the American West. They sold land they could not use, to buy peace with two countries they attacked.

There is a good parallel between “Aztlan” and the “Palestinians”. Basically, Mexico is Jordan and the more hostile places further south are Syria.

They collectively lost Texas when Texas declared independence, though they never really had Texas to begin with, previous imperialists, say, Turkey, owned it.

Then, they launch a brutal bloodthirsty war, using the advantage of numbers to get it back and more, but lose because they are not intelligent or well planned and poorly trained.

Then give up more land, when their own capital is on the line. Then run around whining demanding it back because they made a bad decision and following this pattern, when their economy fails because they are too lazy to develop a sound economic policy and work for it, they insist everyone forgive their debts, sort of like how Syria never paid Russia for the weapons they supposedly bought.

There are a lot of parallels, but as I said, Mexicans are not killing large numbers of innocent people here, yet... Unless you count the “Dirty Bomber”? Islam is recruiting them, because Aztlan takes its very inspiration, from Palestinians. This is “The Age of Hordes” and they know it. It plays itself out in Kashmir, in Serbia, in Chechnya, in Darfur; it will play itself out everywhere in time.

Once again back to Israel and only Israel. No parallels or anything. If you want to compare, make a new thread.

Forget any biblical argument, we need Israel so we aren't wiped out. Without it, another shoah or holocaust will happen again. The borders are better with the west bank in our hands. If the "palestinians" have it, they effectively cut Israel almost in half. they should go back to where they came from in Jordan and Egypt.

Once again back to Israel and only Israel. No parallels or anything. If you want to compare, make a new thread.

Forget any biblical argument, we need Israel so we aren't wiped out. Without it, another shoah or holocaust will happen again. The borders are better with the west bank in our hands. If the "palestinians" have it, they effectively cut Israel almost in half. they should go back to where they came from in Jordan and Egypt.I see that as a positive thing,and we could use another Jewish cleaning.

I see that as a positive thing,and we could use another Jewish cleaning.
That doesn't help the argument at all.

Sel Appa, what do you think of this possible theory: its just a theory mind ;) , Israeli borders include West bank/ Gaza but the PA have a limited authority over it. Semi- autonomous, almost like a county council type- local authority/local govt. status?

Its own localised police force, postage, looks after its own education but pays taxes etc to the greater 'state' so to speak?

Never mind about how unrealistic it might be, what would be the overall Israeli reaction- and even yours?

Can any mods get me his IP? I have some use for this extra TNT...

That doesn't help the argument at all.

Sel Appa, what do you think of this possible theory: its just a theory mind ;) , Israeli borders include West bank/ Gaza but the PA have a limited authority over it. Semi- autonomous, almost like a county council type- local authority/local govt. status?

Its own localised police force, postage, looks after its own education but pays taxes etc to the greater 'state' so to speak?

Never mind about how unrealistic it might be, what would be the overall Israeli reaction- and even yours?


The Nazi’s comments help the argument a great deal, at least for those of us who are on the proper side. If it does not help your argument, then maybe you should be on the “Good” side instead of his.

The “Palestinians” today are making quiet clear that they are entirely ungrateful for the withdrawal. They are demanding “All” of the land. From the very beginning, this has been their intention. Nothing less than Genocide and nothing less will please them. So, they shall just have to spend the rest of their sad little lives unsatisfied.

I do not mind discussing Israel, but I refuse to discuss “Palestine”. Palestine is just a head of a greater hydra, a massive hydra that spreads over three continents and that hydra can not be defeated unless all of the heads are cut off.

To try and give the Hydra yet another organ in the hopes it spares you is folly. “Palestine” never existed and never will.

This is like ending The Second World War by setting up “A semiautonomous Nazi region”. No deal, Germany could not have been allowed to govern itself so long as that ideology remained prevalent. When The Islamic Empire has its genocidal ideology purged from it, then and only then can any of these savage nations be allowed to govern themselves.

Most Arab States condemned Pakistan for even speaking to Israel. Most Pakistanis would happily kill that man if they thought they could. I hope he lives long enough to create some stability over there or we are going to have a Nuclear War on our hands and a billion Innocent Hindus could easily die.

No, they have no place in our country. They are from Jordan. I'd like to say "Go ask them where their great-grandparents lived?", but I don't think you'd spend thousands on a plane ticket.

Can any mods get me his IP? I have some use for this extra TNT...


I find him useful, he brings the genuine intentions of our enemies in to the open. I am more than happy to see Nazis marching on behalf of Palestine. I far prefer a Nazi who admits his intentions to a Chomskite who doesn’t.

True, how 'bout we finish him after we push out our own invaders?

No, they have no place in our country. They are from Jordan. I'd like to say "Go ask them where their great-grandparents lived?", but I don't think you'd spend thousands on a plane ticket.


Collectively, they all claim to live in “Palestine”, but they leave out the small detail that the part of “Palestine” they lived in was Jordan.

When you get in to their individual histories, you find that their great grandparents lived in Jordan or Syria or Egypt. Mostly Jordan. A further problem is that so many of them are young and don’t know where their grandparents originally lived.

In Jordan and Syria they have “Training Camps” for “Palestinians”. The worst are in Syria. But there was an even worse set in Iraq, no entirely in hiding. “Ashbals”, is what they are all called. They are Islamic Orphans, Arabs without parents, told that they are “Palestinians” and raised from the cradle with only one goal, to destroy infidels. They are actually very bad soldiers, you see, they have nothing but “Palestine” to live and die for. Deep down, they are empty, because the only thing they have to live for, does not exist.

No, they have no place in our country. They are from Jordan. I'd like to say "Go ask them where their great-grandparents lived?", but I don't think you'd spend thousands on a plane ticket.
Ok, fair enough.

What about...

taking for the sake of argument that generalising everyone as 'Arab' or 'Muslim' doesn't work and equate to their needs and wants- say they Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese see the Palestinians as the Arabic 'untermensch' (i'm not going to include Egypt as i find them to be more North African then Arab)

Therefore they reject the notion of giving them citizenship, or rights to that effect in their respective countrys- seeing from the Realist perspective that the states are interested in themselves and their survival rather then refugees from outside their borders.
IF the Palestinians have nowhere else to go- is it simply a case of 'anywhere but here' and 'we don't care'? Serious question Sel.

Well if Jordan doesn't want them, they can either find another accepting country or stop having babies. They don't have much to pass on except a bad name.

Well if Jordan doesn't want them, they can either find another accepting country or stop having babies. They don't have much to pass on except a bad name.
Tarring them all with the same brush... much like the mysnomer that all Jews are greedy...

I don't know much about the Torah but does it not teach compassion and goodwill to man? Or does it exclude certain sectors? I mean, surely after the horrors the Jewish diaspora suffered over the centuries they could understand and sympathise with the similar situations occuring today?

(Again, taking this from the view that not every single Arab/Muslim wants to eradicate the Jewish faith- but states are seperate and are only interested in themselves)

I think isreal should get out of the west bank fully!! NOW!!

Pulling out of the Gaza Strip was a nice idea. Unfortunately it's being preverted. Hamas is now claiming they were the reason for the withdrawl and a lot of people are biting into this preverted form of history. Its a sad state of affairs this is true, and it might just embolden the terrorists to press further. Hamas has already said opennly they wont stop until every Israeli is gone from the West Bank, and Jeruselum is their capital(neither thing is going to happen but still they will press the issue.)

A former leader in the PLO plans on returning to the Gaza Strip with a "volunteer" army of 1,100 or whatever number he claimed to raise. And he's said that the Palestinian people wont rest until all the Jews have been driven into the sea..and people are buying this bile. I liked the idea of a withdrawl..but frankly I think Israel should have just turned the land over to its former owner:Egypt. Let them deal with it.

Yeah, Yeru is going a little overboard saying, or at least implying, that EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM is supposed to kill other religions. But, come on, we've never been fully accepted anywhere. We finally get a home and stragglers come in saying it is their land. They're just parasites. Most of them want Israel cut up or destroyed. If they wanted to condemn it, they could surrender with their family to Israel for protection and go on TV.

In other news, a Palestinian tried to blow up a bus, but was thwarted by two guards and an officer or something. One of the guards was Palestinian I think. They don't all hate us, but if they're poor they do.

Pulling out of the Gaza Strip was a nice idea. Unfortunately it's being preverted. Hamas is now claiming they were the reason for the withdrawl and a lot of people are biting into this preverted form of history. Its a sad state of affairs this is true, and it might just embolden the terrorists to press further. Hamas has already said opennly they wont stop until every Israeli is gone from the West Bank, and Jeruselum is their capital(neither thing is going to happen but still they will press the issue.)

A former leader in the PLO plans on returning to the Gaza Strip with a "volunteer" army of 1,100 or whatever number he claimed to raise. And he's said that the Palestinian people wont rest until all the Jews have been driven into the sea..and people are buying this bile. I liked the idea of a withdrawl..but frankly I think Israel should have just turned the land over to its former owner:Egypt. Let them deal with it.

See! And you want to give them land. You give them an inch and they take a mile.

I think isreal should get out of the west bank fully!! NOW!!


I think Islam should get out of Chechnya, Kashmir, Thailand, Serbia, Darfur, Lebanon, Ivory Coast, Israel and all other rational Places “NOW!!!” and take you with them!

See! And you want to give them land. You give them an inch and they take a mile.

I said it was a nice idea with good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

In other news, a Palestinian tried to blow up a bus, but was thwarted by two guards and an officer or something. One of the guards was Palestinian I think. They don't all hate us, but if they're poor they do.


The rich ones hate us too. If they wanted to live in peace with us, they would stop following a man who told them to “Smite us all “Above” our “Necks”.

Pulling out of the Gaza Strip was a nice idea. Unfortunately it's being preverted. Hamas is now claiming they were the reason for the withdrawl and a lot of people are biting into this preverted form of history. Its a sad state of affairs this is true, and it might just embolden the terrorists to press further. Hamas has already said opennly they wont stop until every Israeli is gone from the West Bank, and Jeruselum is their capital(neither thing is going to happen but still they will press the issue.)

A former leader in the PLO plans on returning to the Gaza Strip with a "volunteer" army of 1,100 or whatever number he claimed to raise. And he's said that the Palestinian people wont rest until all the Jews have been driven into the sea..and people are buying this bile. I liked the idea of a withdrawl..but frankly I think Israel should have just turned the land over to its former owner:Egypt. Let them deal with it.

I definetly agree- the power for the poor and the public MUST be in hands of the PA- not Hamas. Hamas is dangerous and threatens to destabilise a delecate situation. I hope the PA PM can lead strongly and sternly by standing up to them. If the public see that political power is greater then the gun then there is hope for the proto state. Much like the recent events in Northern Ireland.

I don't agree with Hamas one bit. Hezb'allah was a different matter but Hamas is led by foolhardy dreamers and unrealistic hardliners.

I'm a Russian/Romanian and Indian Jew, and I say Israel should have kept the land. Forget letting the Palis have that land, everytime there's a suicide bombing in israel find the home of the suicide bomber and LEVEL his whole street.

Bet bombings will go down.

You made the dumbest post I've seen this week. Possibly this month. You dumbass, Isreal HAS been levelling houses and the bombing didn't go down. It has only gone down since they actually made progress by giving the Palestinians back their land in Gaza. And let's not forget, Isreal has killed MANY more palestinians than palestinian idiot bombers have killed jews so Isreal has nothing at all to be proud of.

The rich ones hate us too. If they wanted to live in peace with us, they would stop following a man who told them to “Smite us all “Above” our “Necks”.

Irrelevant. Christians follow a vengeful God and the bible has some pretty intolerant passages. Still, many christians are just ordinary folk. The exact words in a religious scripture aren't very important, it's how they're interpreted that counts. With any luck the palestinians will get better schools and thus become more educated in general now. That'll change much, to the better.

You made the dumbest post I've seen this week. Possibly this month. You dumbass, Isreal HAS been levelling houses and the bombing didn't go down. It has only gone down since they actually made progress by giving the Palestinians back their land in Gaza. And let's not forget, Isreal has killed MANY more palestinians than palestinian idiot bombers have killed jews so Isreal has nothing at all to be proud of.
They had their land in Gaza or weren’t you paying attention for the past thirty years? They rejected every map that has ever had Israel on it, whether it was whole or divided. It is a simple fact, that “Palestinians” only exist to destroy Israel, in fact left the countries they actually did live in, just so they could crowd in to a place that could not possible support them, for the sole purpose of undermining Israel.

Maybe you think sacrificing Israel on the Alters of Mecca will buy you peace, but I doubt Russia, India, Thailand, Serbia or the Ivory Coast have reason to see it that way. Mark my words, betrayal will only buy you a severed neck. Islam will not stop until there are no free countries left and all “Infidels” are dead or slaves.

Israel has shown more restraint than Russia, Ivory Coast or India for that matter, ever did. Try hiding a bomb factory and a bunch of terrorists in your house in America and see if the worst that comes of it your house being bulldozed. I doubt that even the French would let you get away with that without a prison sentence. The Palestinians should be bowing down to us instead of Mecca, for treating them better than any other country would.

Well if Jordan doesn't want them, they can either find another accepting country or stop having babies. They don't have much to pass on except a bad name.And you talk about me, we call that race exstermenation, or genocide of a group of people.

I am shocked and dismayed that anyone is in prison for laughing at a terrorists wiener.

Especially while people who regularly decapitate innocent civilians walk free and those who cheer them on get “Peace Prizes” for it.


Your shock and dismay is understandable,
you're a hate filled, hateful person.
Much in the world is bound to shock you and dismay you, mostly
things like anything smacking of genuine justice, democracy etc.

In your first sentence you indicate 4 problems you have.
The first has already been covered.
The second is an inability to say penis.
The third relates to the first in that you seem to define terrorist as any moslem.
The fourth being of course that no one is in prison for laughing at anyone's penis.

Now I guess we can move on to your second insightful sentence.
The people who regularly decapitate others walking free.
That they have carried out these acts in the first place
and that they have not subsequently been brought to justice is
due to the complete and utter breakdown in law and order in Iraq.
We know the causes of this so if you wish to criticise the fact that
people who have decapitated people walk free then you have to criticise
the people who created the conditions of lawlessness.

Although I shouldn't say you have to as obviously you can quite happily
carry on your life without ever linking cause to effect.
So you do not HAVE to do it.
I am simply stating that any rational person would have to do so.

Maybe you think sacrificing Israel on the Alters of Mecca will buy you peace, but I doubt Russia, India, Thailand, Serbia or the Ivory Coast have reason to see it that way. Mark my words, betrayal will only buy you a severed neck.

Hey hey hey! No fair! You used that one against me already
:p :D

Thought i was the only one... *sniff*

They had their land in Gaza or weren’t you paying attention for the past thirty years? They rejected every map that has ever had Israel on it, whether it was whole or divided. It is a simple fact, that “Palestinians” only exist to destroy Israel, in fact left the countries they actually did live in, just so they could crowd in to a place that could not possible support them, for the sole purpose of undermining Israel.

Maybe you think sacrificing Israel on the Alters of Mecca will buy you peace, but I doubt Russia, India, Thailand, Serbia or the Ivory Coast have reason to see it that way. Mark my words, betrayal will only buy you a severed neck. Islam will not stop until there are no free countries left and all “Infidels” are dead or slaves.

Israel has shown more restraint than Russia, Ivory Coast or India for that matter, ever did. Try hiding a bomb factory and a bunch of terrorists in your house in America and see if the worst that comes of it your house being bulldozed. I doubt that even the French would let you get away with that without a prison sentence. The Palestinians should be bowing down to us instead of Mecca, for treating them better than any other country would.


As a general comment on this post and your many others,
You really should seek medical help for your delusions.

And just to finish of with a more specific point,
Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September, 1993

Irrelevant. Christians follow a vengeful God and the bible has some pretty intolerant passages. Still, many christians are just ordinary folk. The exact words in a religious scripture aren't very important, it's how they're interpreted that counts. With any luck the palestinians will get better schools and thus become more educated in general now. That'll change much, to the better.


The Koran says not to interpret it right at the beginning. They learn not only the passages, but the vocal inflections with which Mohammed supposedly spoke them. Considering that he declared war some twenty odd times in his life, murdered tens of thousands of innocent people and married several of their wives after he killed them, I think modern Moslems have “The Spirit” of Islam down about right.

Now the “Christian Bible” says “Turn the other cheek”. The Koran says “Smite them above their necks and on all of their fingertips until All Bow Down To Allah and show submission”. The “Christian Bible” says “Love thy neighbor”. The Koran says “Take not the Christians and Jews for Friends”.

I prefer the Torah myself. It grants me the right to defend Israel, within Israel’s borders, without all of that Cheek Turning. It does not give me permission to launch a global campaign genocidal purging every corner of the earth of “Infidels” the way Moslems have been instructed, but the Torah also does not cripple me.

Christians are disadvantaged. Moslems attacked them and brutally conquered their way to Spain, before the People of France and Germany managed to finally fend them off. It took two hundred years for the Catholic Church to have a Pope capable of convincing Europeans that they had a right to defend themselves and even then, they showed restraint by simply “Occupying” the Middle East, without doing to the Moslems, what they had done in Europe. Why even only a few centuries ago, Moslems were still making “Monuments” to the “Tolerance” of their religion, from Christian Skulls. Don’t know about it? Ask a Serb about Chele Kula.

Personally I would rather the Palestinians not be educated. The more ignorant they are of their religion, the easier they will be to work with. The less they know about Chemistry, the fewer bombs they will be able to make. I would rather they understand nothing more complex than a spoon really. It is the most dangerous tool I trust them with.

Now why don’t you go read the Koran, or the Bible, or a serious history book. Then you will better know what you are talking about.

<sniped and moved>

Now why don’t you go read ..... or a serious history book. Then you will better know what you are talking about

Christians are disadvantaged. Moslems attacked them and brutally conquered their way to Spain, before the People of France and Germany managed to finally fend them off. It took two hundred years for the Catholic Church to have a Pope capable of convincing Europeans that they had a right to defend themselves and even then, they showed restraint by simply “Occupying” the Middle East, without doing to the Moslems, what they had done in Europe.


Ok, this has nothing to do with the thread- but i can't stand by with a half truth in history (one of my pet hates :p)
I wish you would take your own advice mate, as 'brutal' as the Moorish conquest was, they also brought architecture, astronomy, irrigation techniques, medicine, surgery, mathmatics and other things of such great help that enabled Europe to kick into the Renaissance later on.

And the Pope convincing people? Please! The european states of the medieval era were fractured and squabbling pettily like any other part of the world at that time. The Moors were used by various kingdoms as mercs and as were fought against. They were treated as any other power- their religion was irrelevant and was still so during the Reconquista. That was only because of political handleing by the 'Catholic Kings' to regain power within Spain in general- using religion as an excuse.

Rant over :p

Your shock and dismay is understandable,
you're a hate filled, hateful person.
Much in the world is bound to shock you and dismay you, mostly
things like anything smacking of genuine justice, democracy etc.

In your first sentence you indicate 4 problems you have.
The first has already been covered.
The second is an inability to say penis.
The third relates to the first in that you seem to define terrorist as any moslem.
The fourth being of course that no one is in prison for laughing at anyone's penis.

Now I guess we can move on to your second insightful sentence.
The people who regularly decapitate others walking free.
That they have carried out these acts in the first place
and that they have not subsequently been brought to justice is
due to the complete and utter breakdown in law and order in Iraq.
We know the causes of this so if you wish to criticise the fact that
people who have decapitated people walk free then you have to criticise
the people who created the conditions of lawlessness.

Although I shouldn't say you have to as obviously you can quite happily
carry on your life without ever linking cause to effect.
So you do not HAVE to do it.
I am simply stating that any rational person would have to do so.



You want another third of the Jewish people to die, to appease a genocidal horde that has swarmed over three continents leaving a bloodbath in its wake.

You liked Iraq better when it was run by a man, who used chemical weapons against his own people, had dissenters executed, often by torture and paved over an entire village putting up a sign over it saying “Saddam protects the People”. In case you wonder, we found them because one of their legs was sticking out.

You call me “hateful”? I call you a fool at best.

Hey hey hey! No fair! You used that one against me already
:p :D

Thought i was the only one... *sniff*


You are not special in any good way. There are a lot of people who think just like you, which is a big part of why we can only depend on ourselves for our protection.

If it was just you, you would probably not last very long. However, with so many of you, it is taking a lot longer for natural selection to do its work.

You want another third of the Jewish people to die, to appease a genocidal horde that has swarmed over three continents leaving a bloodbath in its wake.

You liked Iraq better when it was run by a man, who used chemical weapons against his own people, had dissenters executed, often by torture and paved over an entire village putting up a sign over it saying “Saddam protects the People”. In case you wonder, we found them because one of their legs was sticking out.

You call me “hateful”? I call you a fool at best.

Yeru, you were already warned about flameing. Chill.

You are not special in any good way. There are a lot of people who think just like you, which is a big part of why we can only depend on ourselves for our protection.

If it was just you, you would probably not last very long. However, with so many of you, it is taking a lot longer for natural selection to do its work.

Yeah well, I love you too Yeru!
:p

*gives Yeru a big hug*

As a general comment on this post and your many others,
You really should seek medical help for your delusions.

And just to finish of with a more specific point,
Palestinians recognized Israel's right to exist in 1988 and re-iterated this recognition on several occasions including Madrid in 1991 and the Oslo Accords in September, 1993


It does not count, when the nephew of Hitler’s Middle Eastern Ally, says in “English” that he recognizes Israel’s right to exist, then says in Arabic that every Jew should be killed.

I said you should read the Koran and you should. I said you should read the bible and you should. I said you should read a serious history book and I was right about that too. Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza and the West Bank and offered them Jerusalem and everything else in between, they rejected every offer that left Israel with enough land to stick a postage stamp.

Their Religion Forbids Them From peace Outside of the Context of Submission. This is a doctrinal matter. Just as they can not make peace with Hindus over Kashmir, just as they can not leave Russia well enough alone, just as they will not stop trying to take over The Ivory Coast and just as they will not let Africans of Darfur live in peace, just as they continue to murder any Christian Brave enough to try and move back in to Lebanon, from when they were brutally driven; there will be no peace with anyone calling themselves a “Palestinian” and anyone outside the system, sitting safe in their little home far away from all the Saif Waving Towel Heads, is only encouraging an all out war, by acting as their Cheer Leading Section.

Yeru, you were already warned about flameing. Chill.


And I already answered that, I am not sugar coating the truth for anybody. My words are honest judgements and yes I am a judgmental person. It is Foolish to think that they will stop at our blood and spare you. All who think as you do, do not think!

It does not count, when the nephew of Hitler’s Middle Eastern Ally, says in “English” that he recognizes Israel’s right to exist, then says in Arabic that every Jew should be killed.

I said you should read the Koran and you should. I said you should read the bible and you should. I said you should read a serious history book and I was right about that too. Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza and the West Bank and offered them Jerusalem and everything else in between, they rejected every offer that left Israel with enough land to stick a postage stamp.

Their Religion Forbids Them From peace Outside of the Context of Submission. This is a doctrinal matter. Just as they can not make peace with Hindus over Kashmir, just as they can not leave Russia well enough alone, just as they will not stop trying to take over The Ivory Coast and just as they will not let Africans of Darfur live in peace, just as they continue to murder any Christian Brave enough to try and move back in to Lebanon, from when they were brutally driven; there will be no peace with anyone calling themselves a “Palestinian” and anyone outside the system, sitting safe in their little home far away from all the Saif Waving Towel Heads, is only encouraging an all out war, by acting as their Cheer Leading Section.
No it doesn't. Honestly, you should know as well as anyone else that any holy book can be read in such a manner as to endorse violence (how about those chapters about killing every man and child and raping the women?), and more to the point, plenty of muslims do not believe in Jihad. If you'd actually read the book you malign so readily, you'd learn that it only allows what you claim in rigid circumstances, and the best way to fight the (wrong) ideas of those radicals is through words, not bullets. Seems for work for the British rather well.

To answer the question: Yes, Israel is an occupying power, this isn't disputed by anyone. The occupation of the lands is also possibly illegal under international law (settlement, rather), it gets a bit hazy, but as it stands if they did the same thing now (and they continue to settle, so the point becomes rather relevent) it would most certainly be illegal under the geniva conventions.

And I already answered that, I am not sugar coating the truth for anybody. My words are honest judgements and yes I am a judgmental person. It is Foolish to think that they will stop at our blood and spare you. All who think as you do, do not think!
Was only trying help, but if you want to get repremanded by the mods so soon after the last one and maybe get banned, then thats your call.

The whole situation in the Middle East is wrong and it has been from the formation of an Israeli state on. The U.N. should not have the right to seize a countries land in order to form a new one. When will people realize that it is unjust? It is exactly what the American settlers did to Native Americans. Every modern U.S. history book acknowledges that it was wrong. Why can’t we see the striking similarities between that and the situation in Israel? :confused:

You want another third of the Jewish people to die, to appease a genocidal horde that has swarmed over three continents leaving a bloodbath in its wake.

You liked Iraq better when it was run by a man, who used chemical weapons against his own people, had dissenters executed, often by torture and paved over an entire village putting up a sign over it saying “Saddam protects the People”. In case you wonder, we found them because one of their legs was sticking out.

You call me “hateful”? I call you a fool at best.


No I do not want any group of any people to die, which is the principal reason
why israeli treatment of palestinians is unacceptable.
To describe moslems of the current era as a genocidal horde merely
points up your need for therapy.

I did not like Saddam Hussein, the US supported him when he was doing
most of the things you describe, because they wished to use Iraq to
damage Iran, as it did not have a government friendly to US interests.

Many people put a lot of effort into trying to draw attention to his crimes
both within his country and towards Iran. Now when he should be facing
charges for international warcrimes in waging aggressive war against
Iran and later Kuwait the US his supporters in one of those has no desire
that he do so.

Saddam left behind mass graves in Iraq, the US has made new ones,
unlike you I do not think that mass murder, torture and so on are only
crimes when done by countries I do not like.

You are a disgrace to Jews everywhere and a stain on the memories
of good men women and children who were slaughtered by people who
were as hate-filled as you are.

No it doesn't. Honestly, you should know as well as anyone else that any holy book can be read in such a manner as to endorse violence (how about those chapters about killing every man and child and raping the women?), and more to the point, plenty of muslims do not believe in Jihad. If you'd actually read the book you malign so readily, you'd learn that it only allows what you claim in rigid circumstances, and the best way to fight the (wrong) ideas of those radicals is through words, not bullets. Seems for work for the British rather well.

To answer the question: Yes, Israel is an occupying power, this isn't disputed by anyone. The occupation of the lands is also possibly illegal under international law (settlement, rather), it gets a bit hazy, but as it stands if they did the same thing now (and they continue to settle, so the point becomes rather relevent) it would most certainly be illegal under the geniva conventions.


We are only instructed, to conquer one place “Israel”. Our borders are clearly defined in the Torah, as well as the specific way in which that tiny amount of land is to be split up between the tribes.

It is a tiny amount of land, so small that you can walk across it without sleeping if you really want to, but it is too much for the Arabs to spare.

You call it an occupying power, but what was there before us? It was a desert wasteland that could not support even of a fraction of these Arabs, but while they say one thing in English and another in Arabic, you choose to believe them.

The “Narrow Set of Circumstances” in which Jihad is warranted according to the Koran, is there being a place where “They do not submit”. Dar Al Harb. This argument for “Reinterpretation” fails. There is a world of difference between those who see an unarmed woman thrown to a lion as a martyr and those who see the lion choking on her bones as a Martyr.

You are one of those people who only like Jews when we are dying. You think just because something is made legal by the UN which has dozens of Islamic Countries voting in it, that it is suddenly right. You would have supported the Holocaust because German Courts made it legal.

Well I will laugh when the Arabs claim wherever you live. It is only a mater of time.

Was only trying help, but if you want to get repremanded by the mods so soon after the last one and maybe get banned, then thats your call.


You were not trying to help, you are deluding yourself if you believe that. You want me to be banned, so I will stop bashing you over the head with these unpleasant truths.

And you talk about me, we call that race exstermenation, or genocide of a group of people.

You want to kill. I want to end it without blood.

The whole situation in the Middle East is wrong and it has been from the formation of an Israeli state on. The U.N. should not have the right to seize a countries land in order to form a new one. When will people realize that it is unjust? It is exactly what the American settlers did to Native Americans. Every modern U.S. history book acknowledges that it was wrong. Why can’t we see the striking similarities between that and the situation in Israel? :confused:


I want the UN to seize wherever you live and build a cheese factory there.

Israel is a tiny little country, built where there was previously nothing.

The Arabs of course, are a horde that has spread from Russia to South Africa, launching savage and genocidal campaigns in all directions poisoning wells and leaving deserts in their wake.

Doubt it? They built a tower of Skulls in Serbia and took Forty Thousand Slaves in Darfur last year alone.

you think sacrificing Israel will bring peace, sacrificing us has only brought devastation throughout history. What you do to us, shall be visited upon you twenty seven times Nazi.

You were not trying to help, you are deluding yourself if you believe that. You want me to be banned, so I will stop bashing you over the head with these unpleasant truths.

No, i want to debate. Like i've been doing with Sel (don't agree with him/her always- but thats the nature of debate :) )

If you want to rant and call people names, then here is not the place for it. Please keep it calm.

We are only instructed, to conquer one place “Israel”. Our borders are clearly defined in the Torah, as well as the specific way in which that tiny amount of land is to be split up between the tribes.

It is a tiny amount of land, so small that you can walk across it without sleeping if you really want to, but it is too much for the Arabs to spare.

You call it an occupying power, but what was there before us? It was a desert wasteland that could not support even of a fraction of these Arabs, but while they say one thing in English and another in Arabic, you choose to believe them.

The “Narrow Set of Circumstances” in which Jihad is warranted according to the Koran, is there being a place where “They do not submit”. Dar Al Harb. This argument for “Reinterpretation” fails. There is a world of difference between those who see an unarmed woman thrown to a lion as a martyr and those who see the lion choking on her bones as a Martyr.

You are one of those people who only like Jews when we are dying. You think just because something is made legal by the UN which has dozens of Islamic Countries voting in it, that it is suddenly right. You would have supported the Holocaust because German Courts made it legal.

Well I will laugh when the Arabs claim wherever you live. It is only a mater of time.
Oh yes, I so enjoy watching jews getting killed. You've got me. Seig Hail, to the gas chambers with you.

I want the UN to seize wherever you live and build a cheese factory there.

Israel is a tiny little country, built where there was previously nothing.

The Arabs of course, are a horde that has spread from Russia to South Africa, launching savage and genocidal campaigns in all directions poisoning wells and leaving deserts in their wake.

Doubt it? They built a tower of Skulls in Serbia and took Forty Thousand Slaves in Darfur last year alone.

you think sacrificing Israel will bring peace, sacrificing us has only brought devastation throughout history. What you do to us, shall be visited upon you twenty seven times Nazi.
Im not saying that what happened to Jewish people during world war II is not a tragedy, and in no way I advocating the anilation of the Jewish state. Israel was a mistake which we all must deal with. I believe that the withdraw from the Gaza strip was an exellent step toward peace but my biggest fear is the lack of any stable economy in the palistinian territories. Also If you are going to allow arab citizens they should not be second class citizens. Two wrongs dont make a right. :headbang:

No I do not want any group of any people to die, which is the principal reason
why israeli treatment of palestinians is unacceptable.
To describe moslems of the current era as a genocidal horde merely
points up your need for therapy.

I did not like Saddam Hussein, the US supported him when he was doing
most of the things you describe, because they wished to use Iraq to
damage Iran, as it did not have a government friendly to US interests.

Many people put a lot of effort into trying to draw attention to his crimes
both within his country and towards Iran. Now when he should be facing
charges for international warcrimes in waging aggressive war against
Iran and later Kuwait the US his supporters in one of those has no desire
that he do so.

Saddam left behind mass graves in Iraq, the US has made new ones,
unlike you I do not think that mass murder, torture and so on are only
crimes when done by countries I do not like.

You are a disgrace to Jews everywhere and a stain on the memories
of good men women and children who were slaughtered by people who
were as hate-filled as you are.


What do you call a billion people who do not care about their individual lives, but fight fiercely the world over, depending on their numbers rather than individual skill and make it their goal to insure that only their ideology can exist in the world?

They look like a horde to me, they look they are attempting genocide to me. I think my view is accurate.

Now, you falsely accuse Israel of being so cruel to these “Palestinians” of yours. It does not bother you in the least, that their leader for decades, inherited his job from his uncle, who got approval to wipe out the Jews of that area from Hitler himself.

It does not bother you that they were lead by an Egyptian? It does not bother you that they are mostly from Jordan and got a huge influx from Syria, just as Syria finished killing all of the Christians in Lebanon?

You support them, when all they are, is a failed army, that was sent to eradicate us. You can say that you do not wish death on Israel, but your policies mean death to us; so what you say does not match what you work towards. I think you are disingenuous. I think you are under the impression, that by creating this “Palestine”, at the cost of Our Lives, you will appease them and they may spare you. I think, you have not learned from history or from the words coming out of the Arab’s Mouths.

America did prop up Saddam, effectively stealing him from the Soviets who propped him up originally.

America thought he would be useful, as Iran has overthrown the Shah and put in power a man who said “We were dirtier than pigs and dogs” and that “Moslems have a right to rule the world and eradicate the western devils”.

What is worse, is that Carter Armed them, giving in to their demands in order to release hundreds of American Hostages. Saddam, was supposed to insure that those weapons were not used against us. Unfortunately he demanded Air Cover from us and that was not something that we would give him. So he failed and just like Hitler, looked for scapegoats.

This is when he massacred his people and killed far more quickly than he previously had. This is when, America stopped supporting him and he looked for revenge, attacking Kuwait, just to lure us in to a fight. Still, when we won, we spared him and he devoted the next years of his rule, to plotting our murders.

But I must refrain from going in to too much detail, because you are still equivocating. You think we are filling mass graves? There is no accurate count of civilian casualties, Sunni are the only ones who could have counted but they did not care about anyone else enough to keep count. We went to great efforts to avoid civilian casualties while they went to great efforts to increase them. We used many precision weapons, capable of blowing one room out of a sky scraper while leaving those next to it unscratched. Do you have any idea how much effort that takes? Do you have any idea how much simpler everything would be if we just made Nagasaki out of Baghdad?

You would accuse us of torture? Having a woman laugh at you is not torture. You have no comprehension of what torture implies. Torture, is when they take your daughter and throw her one body part at a time off a tower while you are forced to watch, followed by your wife and then by yourself, while “Doctors” keep you alive until your earless and noseless head parts ways with your neck. That is torture and that I can show you pictures of, but it was Saddam’s Agents Doing It.

I only see one faction here, waging a war at once in both Africa and Russia, calling for the blood of all Jews. In fact, one of them is being tried in Florida right now. Al Arian. What do you suppose his name means? You compare me to a Nazi, but you are a Nazi Apologist.

No, i want to debate. Like i've been doing with Sel (don't agree with him/her always- but thats the nature of debate :) )

If you want to rant and call people names, then here is not the place for it. Please keep it calm.


If you wish to debate, you can start with some facts, some logical points derived from those facts and most important of all, make them new and take in to account new points that I have interjected.

Preferably without calling me “Hate Filled”.


Here are some points that I am getting tired of repeating so I will summarize them here.

“Four million Arabs did not live in ‘Palestine ever. They could not have, there was not enough water.”

“The Koran does clearly call for Genocide and people who have read it and understand it know this”.

“Dar Al Islam will not make peace in any one place so long as its enemies live. Peace will not come to Chechnya or Darfur or Kashmir or Serbia, no matter how many times you sacrifice Jews.”

Call it a rant, I call it the truth.

Im not saying that what happened to Jewish people during world war II is not a tragedy, and in no way I advocating the anilation of the Jewish state. Israel was a mistake which we all must deal with. I believe that the withdraw from the Gaza strip was an exellent step toward peace but my biggest fear is the lack of any stable economy in the palistinian territories. Also If you are going to allow arab citizens they should not be second class citizens. Two wrongs dont make a right. :headbang:


A lot of Jewish people in Israel do not like people, who read from a book calling for the extermination of Jews, then call it “Holy”. This does not however equate to being “Second Calls Citizens”. Now show me one Arab Country that would allow twenty percent of its population to be Jewish?

Israel was not “A Mistake”. Israel is necessary because the world is full of people who would say something like “Israel was a mistake” and mean it. I am sorry but we simply can not depend on such people for our safety.

There is no economy in “Palestine”, unless you count the Israeli economy. The only thing they make is bombs. The earn thing they earn is retaliation. They did not move to Israel to build a paradise. They left Jordan, with Martyrdom on their minds and nothing less.
The same can be said for Pakistani “Settlers” squatting in India. They are whining because the Hindus do not like them. I wonder if it has anything to do with all the children they set on fire? Or maybe that line they keep praying about destroying the Polytheists?

Yes Yeru, but you see you seem to have some personal problems with people here, while i have no problem with you.

I can't debate with you because all you do is put your hands on your ears and go "nanananana, i can't hear you, nanananana" then when you're finished, you go "You're just a Nazi". Thats why i don't really bother with you.

I apologise if i called you 'hate filled'. It appears from your posts that you have issues to resolve and i'm sorry if i've touched a raw nerve. But calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is going to be treated like it is. Poor debating skills.

Yes Yeru, but you see you seem to have some personal problems with people here, while i have no problem with you.

I can't debate with you because all you do is put your hands on your ears and go "nanananana, i can't hear you, nanananana" then when you're finished, you go "You're just a Nazi". Thats why i don't really bother with you.

I apologise if i called you 'hate filled'. It appears from your posts that you have issues to resolve and i'm sorry if i've touched a raw nerve. But calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is going to be treated like it is. Poor debating skills.


Exactly what part of

موت إلى ال [جو]!
موت إلى إسرائيل!
موت إلى أمريكا!
موت إلى هند!
موت إلى صربيا!
موت إلى روسيا!

Don't you understand? The only significant difference between Islam and Nazism, is language. Sympathize with one and you just might as well be sympathizing with the other. They were not allied, without reason.

A lot of Jewish people in Israel do not like people, who read from a book calling for the extermination of Jews, then call it “Holy”. This does not however equate to being “Second Calls Citizens”. Now show me one Arab Country that would allow twenty percent of its population to be Jewish?

Israel was not “A Mistake”. Israel is necessary because the world is full of people who would say something like “Israel was a mistake” and mean it. I am sorry but we simply can not depend on such people for our safety.

There is no economy in “Palestine”, unless you count the Israeli economy. The only thing they make is bombs. The earn thing they earn is retaliation. They did not move to Israel to build a paradise. They left Jordan, with Martyrdom on their minds and nothing less.
The same can be said for Pakistani “Settlers” squatting in India. They are whining because the Hindus do not like them. I wonder if it has anything to do with all the children they set on fire? Or maybe that line they keep praying about destroying the Polytheists?
Do you listen to yourself talk? You talk about the Koran but have you ever even read a single page. You are taking a minority of Arabs and are making gross generalizations. Where are you from? Let’s assume that you yourself live in Israel and have had to deal with suicide bombers and fear. If this is the case then I truly do feel sorry for you. However you must try to walk a mile in the other mans shoes here. Let’s say you grow up as a Palestinian in a refugee camp because the Israeli's bulldozed your house. You grow up with no opportunity in life and in an almost total power vacume because that is what it is. The only real establishment is a terrorist organization which provides for you and many. Who would be your hero? The real problem in this whole mess is the inability of both sides to look through there opponents eyes and see the other side to things. Instead people make huge generalizations about the other and call anyone who does not agree with them a nazi.

Exactly what part of

موت إلى ال [جو]!
موت إلى إسرائيل!
موت إلى أمريكا!
موت إلى هند!
موت إلى صربيا!
موت إلى روسيا!

Don't you understand? The only significant difference between Islam and Nazism, is language. Sympathize with one and you just might as well be sympathizing with the other. They were not allied, without reason.
You have got to be kidding me. At one time some Arabs were allied with the Nazis yes. But You cannot still be holding that against them, can you? The Italians, my ancestors were allied with the Nazi's does that put that label on me? You have got to be kidding me! :headbang:

You have got to be kidding me. At one time some Arabs were allied with the Nazis yes. But You cannot still be holding that against them, can you? The Italians, my ancestors were allied with the Nazi's does that put that label on me? You have got to be kidding me! :headbang:
Don't try mate. Trust me, he's not worth it.

Do you listen to yourself talk? You talk about the Koran but have you ever even read a single page. You are taking a minority of Arabs and are making gross generalizations. Where are you from? Let’s assume that you yourself live in Israel and have had to deal with suicide bombers and fear. If this is the case then I truly do feel sorry for you. However you must try to walk a mile in the other mans shoes here. Let’s say you grow up as a Palestinian in a refugee camp because the Israeli's bulldozed your house. You grow up with no opportunity in life and in an almost total power vacume because that is what it is. The only real establishment is a terrorist organization which provides for you and many. Who would be your hero? The real problem in this whole mess is the inability of both sides to look through there opponents eyes and see the other side to things. Instead people make huge generalizations about the other and call anyone who does not agree with them a nazi.


If you keep a bomb factory in your house in America, the police will bulldoze your house too. Of course, unlike Israel, they will probably also arrest everyone who knew anything about it and lock them up for quite some time. Innocent people, do not hide bomb factories or terrorist cells in their homes.

It does not really matter, because they are in a place of their own choosing. They had peace in Jordan and Syria and Egypt. They could have moved in to some bloodstained home in Lebanon where a Christian Family was slaughtered. They chose to squatting Israel for political purposes following Arafat, who inherited his job from his Uncle who was pretty much hired by Hitler.

I have read the Koran, I have several different translations and can muddle through Arabic or Turkish if I have to. I work with Arabs and Turks, Christians and Moslems, every day and know them quite well.

It does not matter to me if one Arab admits he wants to kill me or all of them. They choose a religion that is based, at its very core, on conquest. By their laws, we are only a fraction of human to them. This is not a minority opinion, this is what their religion advocates. This is a doctrinal problem.

They are, at their core, very much like Nazis, which is why they were on the same side of The Second World War. Nazism was beaten in to submission in Germans and most Germans turned away from it, not so for Moslems. They cling to their edicts, fourteen hundred years and they have not given up their goal.

I say that Islam is no better than Nazism. I shall stand by this unless some convincing argument is made to the contrary. I need some new arguments. I have been arguing online since online was invented! I have heard them all.

If you keep a bomb factory in your house in America, the police will bulldoze your house too. Of course, unlike Israel, they will probably also arrest everyone who knew anything about it and lock them up for quite some time. Innocent people, do not hide bomb factories or terrorist cells in their homes.

It does not really matter, because they are in a place of their own choosing. They had peace in Jordan and Syria and Egypt. They could have moved in to some bloodstained home in Lebanon where a Christian Family was slaughtered. They chose to squatting Israel for political purposes following Arafat, who inherited his job from his Uncle who was pretty much hired by Hitler.

I have read the Koran, I have several different translations and can muddle through Arabic or Turkish if I have to. I work with Arabs and Turks, Christians and Moslems, every day and know them quite well.

It does not matter to me if one Arab admits he wants to kill me or all of them. They choose a religion that is based, at its very core, on conquest. By their laws, we are only a fraction of human to them. This is not a minority opinion, this is what their religion advocates. This is a doctrinal problem.

They are, at their core, very much like Nazis, which is why they were on the same side of The Second World War. Nazism was beaten in to submission in Germans and most Germans turned away from it, not so for Moslems. They cling to their edicts, fourteen hundred years and they have not given up their goal.

I say that Islam is no better than Nazism. I shall stand by this unless some convincing argument is made to the contrary. I need some new arguments. I have been arguing online since online was invented! I have heard them all.
Are you from Israel?

You have got to be kidding me. At one time some Arabs were allied with the Nazis yes. But You cannot still be holding that against them, can you? The Italians, my ancestors were allied with the Nazi's does that put that label on me? You have got to be kidding me! :headbang:


That was then.

http://www.pmw.org.il/images%5C050802.jpg

This is now.

http://www.brotherhoodofthelamb.com/ArabNaziSalute.jpg

What is the difference? Now they can “Goose Step” in color?

Are you from Israel?


At the moment, I am in America, New Mexico, working in weapons development. I have been to Israel and plan to return again.

That was then.

http://www.pmw.org.il/images%5C050802.jpg

This is now.

http://www.brotherhoodofthelamb.com/ArabNaziSalute.jpg

What is the difference? Now they can “Goose Step” in color?

So i suppose the Romans were Nazis too merely becuase their 'Ave' salute is the same as a Nazi one...
:rolleyes: Only they didn't realise it yet. Got any other arguments apart from generalising the entire population of the planet into 'either you support Israel or you're a Nazi' slot...

So i suppose the Romans were Nazis too merely becuase their 'Ave' salute is the same as a Nazi one...
:rolleyes: Only they didn't realise it yet. Got any other arguments apart from generalising the entire population of the planet into 'either you support Israel or you're a Nazi' slot...

Was this thread Goodwined before this guy or has it just happened now?

What do you call a billion people who do not care about their individual lives, but fight fiercely the world over, depending on their numbers rather than individual skill and make it their goal to insure that only their ideology can exist in the world?

They look like a horde to me, they look they are attempting genocide to me. I think my view is accurate.

Now, you falsely accuse Israel of being so cruel to these “Palestinians” of yours. It does not bother you in the least, that their leader for decades, inherited his job from his uncle, who got approval to wipe out the Jews of that area from Hitler himself.

It does not bother you that they were lead by an Egyptian? It does not bother you that they are mostly from Jordan and got a huge influx from Syria, just as Syria finished killing all of the Christians in Lebanon?

You support them, when all they are, is a failed army, that was sent to eradicate us. You can say that you do not wish death on Israel, but your policies mean death to us; so what you say does not match what you work towards. I think you are disingenuous. I think you are under the impression, that by creating this “Palestine”, at the cost of Our Lives, you will appease them and they may spare you. I think, you have not learned from history or from the words coming out of the Arab’s Mouths.

America did prop up Saddam, effectively stealing him from the Soviets who propped him up originally.

America thought he would be useful, as Iran has overthrown the Shah and put in power a man who said “We were dirtier than pigs and dogs” and that “Moslems have a right to rule the world and eradicate the western devils”.

What is worse, is that Carter Armed them, giving in to their demands in order to release hundreds of American Hostages. Saddam, was supposed to insure that those weapons were not used against us. Unfortunately he demanded Air Cover from us and that was not something that we would give him. So he failed and just like Hitler, looked for scapegoats.

This is when he massacred his people and killed far more quickly than he previously had. This is when, America stopped supporting him and he looked for revenge, attacking Kuwait, just to lure us in to a fight. Still, when we won, we spared him and he devoted the next years of his rule, to plotting our murders.

But I must refrain from going in to too much detail, because you are still equivocating. You think we are filling mass graves? There is no accurate count of civilian casualties, Sunni are the only ones who could have counted but they did not care about anyone else enough to keep count. We went to great efforts to avoid civilian casualties while they went to great efforts to increase them. We used many precision weapons, capable of blowing one room out of a sky scraper while leaving those next to it unscratched. Do you have any idea how much effort that takes? Do you have any idea how much simpler everything would be if we just made Nagasaki out of Baghdad?

You would accuse us of torture? Having a woman laugh at you is not torture. You have no comprehension of what torture implies. Torture, is when they take your daughter and throw her one body part at a time off a tower while you are forced to watch, followed by your wife and then by yourself, while “Doctors” keep you alive until your earless and noseless head parts ways with your neck. That is torture and that I can show you pictures of, but it was Saddam’s Agents Doing It.

I only see one faction here, waging a war at once in both Africa and Russia, calling for the blood of all Jews. In fact, one of them is being tried in Florida right now. Al Arian. What do you suppose his name means? You compare me to a Nazi, but you are a Nazi Apologist.


The biggest question here is do you really believe any of this junk
or is it that one of the voices in your head is just louder than the others.
There are no billion people fighting regardless of personal cost for
their ideology to be the only one in the world.
Geez its like you've decided to turn the despicable propaganda of
"the protocols of zion" and just change jews to moslems.
You know there is something wrong if someone who is supposedly defending
Jews sounds like a member of the KKK or the hierarchy of the Nazi party.

There are no false accusations of Israeli cruelty to Palestinians it has been
done day in and day out for the last 30 years and has been well documented
despite Israeli efforts to keep it tamped down.

It does not bother me where peoples parents, grandparents or great
grandparents came from and if it mattered to you then you would be calling
for most of the citizens of Israel to go back to their own countries.
No one is looking to appease anyone, no one is asking for appeasement,
what is required is that Israel respect its own internationally recognized
borders and stop occupying lands that are not Israel's.

In Iraq there is no accurate count of civilian casualties as the Americans
not only did not count them but ordered that no one should.
Mass graves are a fact without a full accurate count of all civilians
in Iraq, Fallujah alone provided many.

Humiliating and degrading your captives is torture and if that is all that
had been done to Iraqis held by americans it would be enough to be a
disgrace to their nation.
Saddam having been brutal does not give anyone else an excuse to be
the same, if you could venture into the light of reality you would realise that.
However it was not the worst that was done and we already know that,
the administration admitted that when they said that the tapes that
had not been shown did show far worse.
Seymour Hersch broke the story, he has confirmed that much worse happened
and he has given some clues as to what is on those tapes.

Torture is clear when a man is arrested one day and dumped back on the
street a week later in a vegetative state with bruises and burn marks
all over his body.

Torture is clear when waterboarding is an acceptable form of interrogation.
But an Israeli apologist like yourself will obviously have a problem with
condemning all forms of torture not just the ones that are not being
practiced by the Israeli state (or at least that there is no proof of the
Israeli state practicing)

Your also claiming Saddam "lured" the US into a fight???
That's your theory?
As an act of revenge Saddam LURED the US into a fight???
Your arguments just don't have to make sense at all do they?

Whereas after driving Saddam's forces out of Kuwait,
which was in accord with UN resolutions,
America used the UN to ensure that Iraq was disarmed of any weapons that
would be any real threat to the US forces and once being assured as close
to 100% as it is possible to get that they no longer had them
theythen invaded and brought
about the chaos that now exists there having softened up the nation
with the misuse of UN sanctions,
causing the death of half a million children,
for the 13 yrs between the two "wars"


Of course it would be much "easier" to nuke baghdad,
as long as you want no allies at all.
Even Britain would not support you if you did such a thing and might
even join against you if you were that crazed.

It is clearly pointless trying to discuss reality with someone as obviously
detached from it, but for the benefit of others who might read this.
I have never been an apologist for the nazis,
my concept of right and wrong does not change depending on
what person or nation we are discussing.

I have compared you to nazis
and your support of torture
your lack of respect for human life
and your belief that killing millions
would be "easier" so you should be respected for only killing 10's of thousands
over a couple of years, pretty much declares you as someone who
bears quite obvious comparison to nazis.

I take back what I said before, you are not just a stain on the memories
of slain innocents and a disgrace to Jews everywhere,
you are a blot on the whole human race and it is everyone who is shamed
by even belonging to the same species as you.
You may be all talk where others like Hitler and Saddam could make their
talk reality but it is the same talk, just with different targets.
It is the evil, heartless, pitiless darkness of spirit that leads to all the
truly despicable crimes against men women and children.

So i suppose the Romans were Nazis too merely becuase their 'Ave' salute is the same as a Nazi one...
:rolleyes: Only they didn't realise it yet. Got any other arguments apart from generalising the entire population of the planet into 'either you support Israel or you're a Nazi' slot...


Mein Kampf is the best selling book in Turkey. Going to make excuses for that one too Dhimmi?

At the moment, I am in America, New Mexico, working in weapons development. I have been to Israel and plan to return again.


So you're effectively a bomb maker.

The biggest question here is do you really believe any of this junk
or is it that one of the voices in your head is just louder than the others.
There are no billion people fighting regardless of personal cost for
their ideology to be the only one in the world.
Geez its like you've decided to turn the despicable propaganda of
"the protocols of zion" and just change jews to moslems.
You know there is something wrong if someone who is supposedly defending
Jews sounds like a member of the KKK or the hierarchy of the Nazi party.

There are no false accusations of Israeli cruelty to Palestinians it has been
done day in and day out for the last 30 years and has been well documented
despite Israeli efforts to keep it tamped down.

It does not bother me where peoples parents, grandparents or great
grandparents came from and if it mattered to you then you would be calling
for most of the citizens of Israel to go back to their own countries.
No one is looking to appease anyone, no one is asking for appeasement,
what is required is that Israel respect its own internationally recognized
borders and stop occupying lands that are not Israel's.

In Iraq there is no accurate count of civilian casualties as the Americans
not only did not count them but ordered that no one should.
Mass graves are a fact without a full accurate count of all civilians
in Iraq, Fallujah alone provided many.

Humiliating and degrading your captives is torture and if that is all that
had been done to Iraqis held by americans it would be enough to be a
disgrace to their nation.
Saddam having been brutal does not give anyone else an excuse to be
the same, if you could venture into the light of reality you would realise that.
However it was not the worst that was done and we already know that,
the administration admitted that when they said that the tapes that
had not been shown did show far worse.
Seymour Hersch broke the story, he has confirmed that much worse happened
and he has given some clues as to what is on those tapes.

Torture is clear when a man is arrested one day and dumped back on the
street a week later in a vegetative state with bruises and burn marks
all over his body.

Torture is clear when waterboarding is an acceptable form of interrogation.
But an Israeli apologist like yourself will obviously have a problem with
condemning all forms of torture not just the ones that are not being
practiced by the Israeli state (or at least that there is no proof of the
Israeli state practicing)

Your also claiming Saddam "lured" the US into a fight???
That's your theory?
As an act of revenge Saddam LURED the US into a fight???
Your arguments just don't have to make sense at all do they?

Whereas after driving Saddam's forces out of Kuwait,
which was in accord with UN resolutions,
America used the UN to ensure that Iraq was disarmed of any weapons that
would be any real threat to the US forces and once being assured as close
to 100% as it is possible to get that they no longer had them
theythen invaded and brought
about the chaos that now exists there having softened up the nation
with the misuse of UN sanctions,
causing the death of half a million children,
for the 13 yrs between the two "wars"


Of course it would be much "easier" to nuke baghdad,
as long as you want no allies at all.
Even Britain would not support you if you did such a thing and might
even join against you if you were that crazed.

It is clearly pointless trying to discuss reality with someone as obviously
detached from it, but for the benefit of others who might read this.
I have never been an apologist for the nazis,
my concept of right and wrong does not change depending on
what person or nation we are discussing.

I have compared you to nazis
and your support of torture
your lack of respect for human life
and your belief that killing millions
would be "easier" so you should be respected for only killing 10's of thousands
over a couple of years, pretty much declares you as someone who
bears quite obvious comparison to nazis.

I take back what I said before, you are not just a stain on the memories
of slain innocents and a disgrace to Jews everywhere,
you are a blot on the whole human race and it is everyone who is shamed
by even belonging to the same species as you.
You may be all talk where others like Hitler and Saddam could make their
talk reality but it is the same talk, just with different targets.
It is the evil, heartless, pitiless darkness of spirit that leads to all the
truly despicable crimes against men women and children.


I do believe what I say, unless I am being sarcastic. The question is, do you believe what you say?

You equivocate what America does with what Saddam did. I do not see America soldiers chopping up children just to intimidate their parents before they kill them. Do you?

You speak of these “Atrocities” that Israel is committing, I can show you pictures of atrocities but not that Israel is committing. Then again, I do not consider bulldozing a bomb factory an “Atrocity”. You may, but that speaks to your bad judgment and not mine.

The “Protocols” are still on the Palestinian Authority web site now that you bring it up. If you believe them so much, you must believe these. Again, it speaks to your bad judgment and not mine.

You seem to believe everyone as long as they are an Islamic Terrorist, whether they claim there are mass graves from American Attacks in Iraq or “Jews Stealing Children’s Eyeballs in Palestine”.

I have no doubt that a half century ago you would have been arguing on behalf of Hitler. You seem to have this strange Idea that Israel and American Press are keeping all sorts of secrets atrocity wise. Maybe you think it is because “Us Jews” control the media.

Now you may not like this, But Israel will use whatever means are necessary to defend itself, a country smaller than most American States, against an Enemy that has conquered more land than the Soviets ever did.

You may not like it, but Israel will not be destroyed by those Goose Stepping, Jew Hating, High Pitched Ranting, Wife Beating, Chemical Weapon Using, “Master Religion” following Hordes.

I can not speak for wherever you are, but I can speak for wherever I am. We will never “Submit”.

It is entirely possible however, that we may form an alliance with some of the other “Ancient Homelands Since Time Immemorial” that are also being attacked by Islam. maybe India, Maybe Serbia, Maybe The Ivory Coast, maybe Darfur where Forty Thousand Slaves were captured last year and you don’t give a damn.

Yes, I call you a Nazi and you share far more opinions with them than I do.

So you're effectively a bomb maker.


My people have always offered whatever useful skills we could. The world is setting itself up for a big bloody war right now and I will do what I can to insure my people and my friends are able to deal with it.

I assume you will do the same by arming Nazi, pardon I mean “Moslem” terrorists who are equally genocidal and suicidal. Maybe in the guise of a “Civilian Nuclear Program” or some such nonsense.

No matter, we invented the Cell Phone, The Nuclear Submarine, Nuclear and Chemical Weapons, the core of the Windows Operating System, Computer Architecture, some Eighty Percent of Biotech and developed America’s anti-missile technology. We can deal with whatever garbage Europe gives Iran in exchange for empty promises.

I do believe what I say, unless I am being sarcastic. The question is, do you believe what you say?


Yes I do


You equivocate what America does with what Saddam did. I do not see America soldiers chopping up children just to intimidate their parents before they kill them. Do you?

No I don't see it,
but they admitted half a million Iraqi children died as a result of their
implementation of sanctions
and it is funny you should mention children because it is crimes against
children in Abu Ghraib that Seymour Hersch has suggested is contained
on the unseen tapes.

I didn't have to see Saddam committing his crimes to be aware of them either.


You speak of these “Atrocities” that Israel is committing, I can show you pictures of atrocities but not that Israel is committing. Then again, I do not consider bulldozing a bomb factory an “Atrocity”. You may, but that speaks to your bad judgment and not mine.

Again this concept that wrong done by people I don't like justifies
wrongs done by people I do like along with the idea that they become
right simply by it being people you like doing them.

Your definition of bomb factory is obviously any house that the IDF demolish
that houses palestinians and is of the same school as your definition
of the word terrorist as being any moslem.

The “Protocols” are still on the Palestinian Authority web site now that you bring it up. If you believe them so much, you must believe these. Again, it speaks to your bad judgment and not mine.

Again the concept of it being evil is someone else does it but because
they do it it is good when you or your friends do it.
If your statement is true it is shameful to palestinians but in no way
makes your talk or your support of evil actions acceptable.


You seem to believe everyone as long as they are an Islamic Terrorist, whether they claim there are mass graves from American Attacks in Iraq or “Jews Stealing Children’s Eyeballs in Palestine”.


and here you go with attributing things to me that I have never said.


I have no doubt that a half century ago you would have been arguing on behalf of Hitler. You seem to have this strange Idea that Israel and American Press are keeping all sorts of secrets atrocity wise. Maybe you think it is because “Us Jews” control the media.


I think the reason you have no doubt of this is because you are
about as far from rational as it is possible to get.
I think my position regarding nazi actions and ideologies has been clearly
given and that is that they were great evils.


Now you may not like this, But Israel will use whatever means are necessary to defend itself, a country smaller than most American States, against an Enemy that has conquered more land than the Soviets ever did.


Israel is in the middle east, not a place reknowned for good government.
What marks Israel in particular is its evil actions as a state combined
with its pretence at democracy.
Most of the rest of the middle east are simply dictatorships propped up with
American support, for if they were democracies, they would not be friendly
to American interests.
To have corrupt and evil leaders is bad enough but to shout loudly about
democracy while being anything but adds hypocrisy to the mix.


You may not like it, but Israel will not be destroyed by those Goose Stepping, Jew Hating, High Pitched Ranting, Wife Beating, Chemical Weapon Using, “Master Religion” following Hordes.


Unfortunately you are probably wrong, Israel almost certainly will be
destroyed by the people just like you.
You don't goose step (i'm guessing0
but you certainly hate any Jew that doesn't agree with you
I cannot comment on the pitch of your ranting but ranting is certainly the
word to describe what you do.
Wife Beating? well maybe- I don't know your family situation
Chemical Weapon Using? - probably not after all Israel has nuclear weapons
and the means to deliver them. Much more effective at killing people.
What mix of religions do you personally approve of in Israel?


I can not speak for wherever you are, but I can speak for wherever I am. We will never “Submit”.


You are probably right, you will probably carry your non submission on until
there is no Israel at all.


It is entirely possible however, that we may form an alliance with some of the other “Ancient Homelands Since Time Immemorial” that are also being attacked by Islam. maybe India, Maybe Serbia, Maybe The Ivory Coast, maybe Darfur where Forty Thousand Slaves were captured last year and you don’t give a damn.


And just where do you get this idea that I do not give a damn?
Are you plucking it from the air or is one of the many voices in your head
shouting it out?
Perhaps someday you will realize that I have stated that killing torture
and murder are always bad things regardless of who does them
and the same applies to slavery.


Yes, I call you a Nazi and you share far more opinions with them than I do.

Your final statement is as without reason or sense as everything that has
gone before.

As you have admitted that you are a "bomb maker"(weapons manufacture) in america
can we expect that your house is going to be bulldozed?

You should hope that you are given the time to get out with your posessions
and with sizable compensation like the illegal settlers in Gaza and not
the 5 minutes and no time to take anything and no compensation of any kind
that you would get if you were a palestinian.

You have nowhere pointed out any opinion that I hold in common with
nazis, you have repeatedly spoken in ways that concord fully with
the speech of nazis simply replacing where they would have said jew with moslem.

For the final time I say you are a disgrace to us all.

Yes I do


No I don't see it,
but they admitted half a million Iraqi children died as a result of their
implementation of sanctions
and it is funny you should mention children because it is crimes against
children in Abu Ghraib that Seymour Hersch has suggested is contained
on the unseen tapes.

I didn't have to see Saddam committing his crimes to be aware of them either.


Again this concept that wrong done by people I don't like justifies
wrongs done by people I do like along with the idea that they become
right simply by it being people you like doing them.

Your definition of bomb factory is obviously any house that the IDF demolish
that houses palestinians and is of the same school as your definition
of the word terrorist as being any moslem.

Again the concept of it being evil is someone else does it but because
they do it it is good when you or your friends do it.
If your statement is true it is shameful to palestinians but in no way
makes your talk or your support of evil actions acceptable.



and here you go with attributing things to me that I have never said.



I think the reason you have no doubt of this is because you are
about as far from rational as it is possible to get.
I think my position regarding nazi actions and ideologies has been clearly
given and that is that they were great evils.



Israel is in the middle east, not a place reknowned for good government.
What marks Israel in particular is its evil actions as a state combined
with its pretence at democracy.
Most of the rest of the middle east are simply dictatorships propped up with
American support, for if they were democracies, they would not be friendly
to American interests.
To have corrupt and evil leaders is bad enough but to shout loudly about
democracy while being anything but adds hypocrisy to the mix.



Unfortunately you are probably wrong, Israel almost certainly will be
destroyed by the people just like you.
You don't goose step (i'm guessing0
but you certainly hate any Jew that doesn't agree with you
I cannot comment on the pitch of your ranting but ranting is certainly the
word to describe what you do.
Wife Beating? well maybe- I don't know your family situation
Chemical Weapon Using? - probably not after all Israel has nuclear weapons
and the means to deliver them. Much more effective at killing people.
What mix of religions do you personally approve of in Israel?



You are probably right, you will probably carry your non submission on until
there is no Israel at all.



And just where do you get this idea that I do not give a damn?
Are you plucking it from the air or is one of the many voices in your head
shouting it out?
Perhaps someday you will realize that I have stated that killing torture
and murder are always bad things regardless of who does them
and the same applies to slavery.



Your final statement is as without reason or sense as everything that has
gone before.

As you have admitted that you are a "bomb maker"(weapons manufacture) in america
can we expect that your house is going to be bulldozed?

You should hope that you are given the time to get out with your posessions
and with sizable compensation like the illegal settlers in Gaza and not
the 5 minutes and no time to take anything and no compensation of any kind
that you would get if you were a palestinian.

You have nowhere pointed out any opinion that I hold in common with
nazis, you have repeatedly spoken in ways that concord fully with
the speech of nazis simply replacing where they would have said jew with moslem.

For the final time I say you are a disgrace to us all.


I am glad this is the final time you will say it, because I am getting a little tired of hearing you recite Arab Propaganda about how evil Israel is and how those innocent terrorists had their “Non-bomb factories” bulldozed.

Israel is a representative democracy, in which leaders are elected by other elected officials or by direct elections depending on the official; which admittedly can centralize a considerable amount of power. People tend to support governments that do that when they are outnumbered two hundred and forty to one, by an enemy bent on exterminating each and every one of them.

Not to mention that they have wonderful friends like you out there working to slander and undermine them.

You excuse the Arabs by agreeing with their propaganda, or socialist propaganda which just happens to go along with their fantastic accusations as the case may be. You obviously believe all sorts of wacky theories about how we Jewish Neocons are keeping all kinds of secrets from you in the obviously “Right Wing” media.

Now the weapons and in some cases counter-weapons that I design are made available to responsible governments, for official purposes. What the Palestinians are doing is making weapons, for some guy to sneak across a border and blow himself up next to a day care deliberately. The weapons I design are needed to deal with those kinds of people. That you equivocate the two of us, demonstrate that you do not understand the difference between self defense and murder. By this right, I maintain that you have no right to defend yourself. You would sacrifice us so your right to life is forfeit.

We bombed the Nazis, not just “Nazi Extremists”; we were right to do so because if people like you were in charge, we would have become an American Vichy government.

I maintain that you are no better than those who sympathized with the Nazis. My People shall defend themselves, even if we have to deal with Islam, the same way America dealt with Japan.

I am glad this is the final time you will say it, because I am getting a little tired of hearing you recite Arab Propaganda about how evil Israel is and how those innocent terrorists had their “Non-bomb factories” bulldozed.


Except even Israel doesn't claim that every palestinian home they demolish
is a bomb factory, it's just another of your fantasies. As is the way you
use the word terrorist simply to mean any Palestinian or Muslim.

Israel gives many excuses in fact, one sometimes used is a claim that
bombs are made there,
but another is that a suicide bomber had lived there,
sometimes they simply claim it was illegally built,
sometimes it is simply
to provide "security" as the houses are too close to an illegal settlement.

You really need to work on identifying reality from the fantasies in your head.


Israel is a representative democracy, in which leaders are elected by other elected officials or by direct elections depending on the official; which admittedly can centralize a considerable amount of power. People tend to support governments that do that when they are outnumbered two hundred and forty to one, by an enemy bent on exterminating each and every one of them.


The nazis would have been equally at home with the concept of
representative democracy where the state ensures that the nazis
will always have the majority. It does not make it a democracy.
It twists and corrupts the concept of democracy.


Not to mention that they have wonderful friends like you out there working to slander and undermine them.


I am of course no friend of the brutal and disgusting country that Israel
currently is.
I can be no friend to torturers and murderers.
When a man who has justly earned the title of Butcher is elected
to lead a country with pretensions of democracy the people who
elect him clearly demonstrate their values.


You excuse the Arabs by agreeing with their propaganda, or socialist propaganda which just happens to go along with their fantastic accusations as the case may be. You obviously believe all sorts of wacky theories about how we Jewish Neocons are keeping all kinds of secrets from you in the obviously “Right Wing” media.


I excuse no one nor do I agree with anyones propaganda.

The truth may be uncomfortable for you but it does not become falsehood
by labelling it propaganda.
I think people like you who feel that America's right wing and Israel are
natural bedfellows will be very unhappy when Israel becomes more
of an irritation to them than the excuse they can currently use for their
policies in the middle east.
The American administrations through the years should demonstrate to you
exactly how long their "friendships" last.
Iraq was their friend 20 yrs ago and look at it now.
That will be Israel's fate if it continues to carry on with the behaviours
it has displayed to date.

The most frustrating thing is the American administration is not very
good at keeping secrets, they are just very good at telling lies and not
being at all bothered by evidence disproving them.

They think that repeating lies often enough will cause
enough doubt so that the truth can be discounted.
The trouble is of course that they are right, they do get away with it.

Just as with the Iraqi WMD claims.
No truth to them
No reason to believe them
No evidence at all to support them
Plenty of evidence to disprove the lies
But there are still people in the states and elsewhere who think that
senior politicians who supported the war at least thought
there was reason to believe that Iraq had WMD in 2002.


Now the weapons and in some cases counter-weapons that I design are made available to responsible governments, for official purposes. What the Palestinians are doing is making weapons, for some guy to sneak across a border and blow himself up next to a day care deliberately. The weapons I design are needed to deal with those kinds of people. That you equivocate the two of us, demonstrate that you do not understand the difference between self defense and murder. By this right, I maintain that you have no right to defend yourself. You would sacrifice us so your right to life is forfeit.


Ahhh you are one of those people who believe that dropping bombs
from planes, or firing missiles from ships or helicopters is morally superior
to carrying bombs to the place of detonation.
They all kill people and in the same way and you make these things.

You clearly do not understand what equivocate means or how to use it
so I suggest you stop using it.

Self defense really can not be used to describe a situation where the other
people suffer ten times or more the level of deaths that your side suffers.


We bombed the Nazis, not just “Nazi Extremists”; we were right to do so because if people like you were in charge, we would have become an American Vichy government.


Yeah couldn't have america supporting aggressive war while doing
away with civil rights such as right to trial etc.
The US fought the nazis of course because Germany declared war on the states and did not fight them at all until that happened and that did not happen until 1941.


I maintain that you are no better than those who sympathized with the Nazis. My People shall defend themselves, even if we have to deal with Islam, the same way America dealt with Japan.


Your people?
You mean only those of your people who agree with you.
Which is of course not all of your people.
You'd quite happily kill those of your people who would oppose you
and that makes you the equivalent of any other non democratic, nazi style person.

You really better realise of course that if Israel ever did such a thing it would
be destroyed immediately and the very first country to take action to
achieve that end would be the US.
Politically they would have no choice there are limits even for a superpower
and they couldn't risk another country doing it first.

Being anti nazi wasn't the same as being anti german
Being against Israel and its current and recent actions is not equivelant to
being anti Jewish.

Israel currently needs the same help that the US needs,
it needs its real friends to stop it doing the kind of things that drag it into
the rankings of evildoers.
People like you who support those kind of actions are no friends of Israel or
the US, you are the people who will bring an end to the very things that
decent people would hold most dear about either of those two nations.

I am sorry, but I can no longer participate in this thread, lest I say something dreadful. It has been nice meeting most of you. I made a new friend or two along the way, I hope you enjoy your debating. Good Night.

Except even Israel doesn't claim that every palestinian home they demolish
is a bomb factory, it's just another of your fantasies. As is the way you
use the word terrorist simply to mean any Palestinian or Muslim.

Israel gives many excuses in fact, one sometimes used is a claim that
bombs are made there,
but another is that a suicide bomber had lived there,
sometimes they simply claim it was illegally built,
sometimes it is simply
to provide "security" as the houses are too close to an illegal settlement.

You really need to work on identifying reality from the fantasies in your head.



The nazis would have been equally at home with the concept of
representative democracy where the state ensures that the nazis
will always have the majority. It does not make it a democracy.
It twists and corrupts the concept of democracy.



I am of course no friend of the brutal and disgusting country that Israel
currently is.
I can be no friend to torturers and murderers.
When a man who has justly earned the title of Butcher is elected
to lead a country with pretensions of democracy the people who
elect him clearly demonstrate their values.



I excuse no one nor do I agree with anyones propaganda.

The truth may be uncomfortable for you but it does not become falsehood
by labelling it propaganda.
I think people like you who feel that America's right wing and Israel are
natural bedfellows will be very unhappy when Israel becomes more
of an irritation to them than the excuse they can currently use for their
policies in the middle east.
The American administrations through the years should demonstrate to you
exactly how long their "friendships" last.
Iraq was their friend 20 yrs ago and look at it now.
That will be Israel's fate if it continues to carry on with the behaviours
it has displayed to date.

The most frustrating thing is the American administration is not very
good at keeping secrets, they are just very good at telling lies and not
being at all bothered by evidence disproving them.

They think that repeating lies often enough will cause
enough doubt so that the truth can be discounted.
The trouble is of course that they are right, they do get away with it.

Just as with the Iraqi WMD claims.
No truth to them
No reason to believe them
No evidence at all to support them
Plenty of evidence to disprove the lies
But there are still people in the states and elsewhere who think that
senior politicians who supported the war at least thought
there was reason to believe that Iraq had WMD in 2002.



Ahhh you are one of those people who believe that dropping bombs
from planes, or firing missiles from ships or helicopters is morally superior
to carrying bombs to the place of detonation.
They all kill people and in the same way and you make these things.

You clearly do not understand what equivocate means or how to use it
so I suggest you stop using it.

Self defense really can not be used to describe a situation where the other
people suffer ten times or more the level of deaths that your side suffers.



Yeah couldn't have america supporting aggressive war while doing
away with civil rights such as right to trial etc.
The US fought the nazis of course because Germany declared war on the states and did not fight them at all until that happened and that did not happen until 1941.



Your people?
You mean only those of your people who agree with you.
Which is of course not all of your people.
You'd quite happily kill those of your people who would oppose you
and that makes you the equivalent of any other non democratic, nazi style person.

You really better realise of course that if Israel ever did such a thing it would
be destroyed immediately and the very first country to take action to
achieve that end would be the US.
Politically they would have no choice there are limits even for a superpower
and they couldn't risk another country doing it first.

Being anti nazi wasn't the same as being anti german
Being against Israel and its current and recent actions is not equivelant to
being anti Jewish.

Israel currently needs the same help that the US needs,
it needs its real friends to stop it doing the kind of things that drag it into
the rankings of evildoers.
People like you who support those kind of actions are no friends of Israel or
the US, you are the people who will bring an end to the very things that
decent people would hold most dear about either of those two nations.


Israel is a country. The Jewish People, are the people who need that country. If you deny them their right to defend themselves, you deny them the right to live. This means, you are trying to get another third of the Jewish people murdered. Your “Why” does not cut it.

Allow me to illuminate your position. You describe Israel a country that is brutal and disgusting, ruled by a “Butcher”.

Well, let us address this. Of course, Israel bulldozes buildings for a wide variety of reasons, virtually all of which other civilized countries share. Canada bulldozed an entire city and did not relocate “Africaville” anywhere, just because they were poor. If you build a house without all the needed permits on someone else’s land, they will likely bulldoze you as well as sue you for damages and of course if you shelter a terrorist you are an accomplice to their crimes.

Does any of this matter to you? No, because the victims are just those “Evil Brutal Israeli Butchers”.

You said Sharon was a “Butcher”. I know why you said this, I also read those accusations. Those accusations were propaganda. Sharon, was dispatched to deal with Guerillas. There was a firefight and afterwards, he proceeded to destroy their base, he had no way of knowing that they had hidden women and children in that squat. The Islamists and their Socialist Allies will call this an atrocity. One who is not so easily swayed by propaganda will recognize it as the consequence of one side employing what are known as “Asymmetric Tactics”.

You think there were “NO WMDS!” in Iraq? You are not only swayed by propaganda but by cheap sound bytes. I can list a lot of weapons violations that qualify as violations of the Cease Fire Agreement. Biological Weaponization Samples stored in refrigerators, Gas Centrifuges hidden under rose bushes, entire warehouses filled with mislabeled chemical weapons components, continuing missile research, does any of this matter to you? You lack the background to evaluate this data for yourself so you just regurgitate sound bytes.

The fact is, you believe a lot of things that are clearly untrue, literally “Blood Libel” and you believe them because they are convenient propaganda that supports your pre-existing Anti-Jewish philosophy. I would say “Anti-Semitic” but you seem the kind who would try to twist that in to an “Arabs are Semites so anyone who is concerned about Islamic Doctrine for Global Genocide is also Anti-Semitic” argument.

Islam declared war against everyone fourteen hundred years ago. That declaration has never been canceled.

You can say that wanting to destroy Israel is not the same thing as wanting to destroy Jews, but then you could also say that wanting to Destroy European Jewry is not the same as wanting to destroy Jews. You are still pushing genocide against us, to please a horde that frankly has plenty of other countries and does not need this one.

I wish you could understand this, I really do, it would make you a better person, possibly even a good person. Your perspective is so skewed. It is like when Plank tried to talk to Hitler about the importance of German Science and the danger of letting his ideology crush the free thought out of the fields. All Hitler could do was regurgitate the same mindless slogans. It was nothing he said could sway the man and nothing could. Facts, bounced off his rhetoric. Rational Arguments, were answered with yet more colorful but ultimately inapplicable jargon. Will anything I say, ever factored in to any of your long but ultimately empty responses?

Now we’re “Evildoers”. Not Saddam who butchered so many and now has you arguing on his behalf. Not the Hordlings who swarm from Pakistan to Chechnya claiming that the trains they detonate are being destroyed in the name of “Their Ancient Homeland Since Time Immemorial”. The least you could do is be consistent and condemn Russia for firing so many SCUDs in to “Poor Chechnya”.

No you are too busy talking about “The Evil United States” and the “Little Satan Israel”.

I can not tolerate Hypocrisy. You would deny us the right to defend ourselves, so yes, I would deny you that right. Hindus like Karma, but I think Karma needs help. I like Irony and there would be nothing more Ironic, than for you to be forced, to suffer under the burden you would place on us.

Israel has the only complete missile defense system in the world. Israel has second strike capability and an arsenal that was developed just in case the Soviets came in on behalf of the Arabs, an arsenal that would Insure the Soviet Union did not survive that war. Israel can deliver fifty nuclear weapons anywhere in the world and no one, not even America, could stop them. Israel may not survive a war against America, but neither would America. You would like that, the two countries you hate the most destroying one another; but America is not so stupid. Russia might be, they seem a little unclear about who their allies are, but their hardware is too old and poorly maintained. They may not even be able to destroy Israel now.

In the end of the day, we are still the most educated people on the planet. We are still the principle scientists, we are still the cutting edge. Windows, Cell Phones, the Atom Bomb, Diamonds, Computer Architecture, the only cruise missiles with a hover function, these are still ours and if your kind ever did lead America to its doom, we would still survive, though the hordes would gnaw your bones.

Wow. Ultimately, I don't think the problem is with Jews or Muslims or Christians or Buddhists or whatever. The problem is religion itself. Religions seem to start as brilliant sets of ideas and philosophies that are designed to help people live better. Unfortunately, religions all to often morph into cancerous institutions that feed off of humanity in a desperate attempt to grow themselves at any cost. It seems to me like history has shown that mixing religion and nationalism is a pretty stupid idea. I don't think it's been working really well in Israel. I don't think it's been working really well in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. I don't think it will work really well if Bush succeeds in his quest to make the US a Christian nation. I think people need to keep their religions out of their politics.
Actually the States have always been "One nation UNDER GOD" as in a Christian nation!

See, the problem with your argument is you try to use the bible to back up your case. No one knows if the bible is true or not, there is no way to prove it. In reality, what we know for sure is that between the UK and the UN Jewish people were placed in "Israel" in 1948. That is all you have to go on legally and in this world. Biblical arguments really hold no relevance.
Actually on a purely Scientific stand point the Bible is the most provable record of the proceedings in and around the middle east.

I excuse no one nor do I agree with anyones propaganda. The truth may be uncomfortable for you but it does not become falsehood by labelling it propaganda. I think people like you who feel that America's right wing and Israel are natural bedfellows will be very unhappy when Israel becomes more of an irritation to them than the excuse they can currently use for their policies in the middle east. The American administrations through the years should demonstrate to you exactly how long their "friendships" last. Iraq was their friend 20 yrs ago and look at it now. That will be Israel's fate if it continues to carry on with the behaviours
it has displayed to date.
Except by saying half the things you are calling facts and truth you are showing that you have fallen victim to propaganda. Both sides put out their "truth" and it is up to us the find the real truth of the situation through study of the motives and actions taken by both sides and why it was done. Ie: Isreali military is told this building is housing terrorists so it attacks (motive/action) in the defense of their country against future suicide attacks against innocent civilians (the why).

The most frustrating thing is the American administration is not very
good at keeping secrets, they are just very good at telling lies and not
being at all bothered by evidence disproving them.

They think that repeating lies often enough will cause
enough doubt so that the truth can be discounted.
The trouble is of course that they are right, they do get away with it.

Just as with the Iraqi WMD claims.
No truth to them
No reason to believe them
No evidence at all to support them
Plenty of evidence to disprove the lies
But there are still people in the states and elsewhere who think that
senior politicians who supported the war at least thought
there was reason to believe that Iraq had WMD in 2002.
So you say that by the fact that none of the weapons were found is proof that they do not exsist? We know for a fact that they do exsist but the finding of them is literally like finding a needle in a haystack. Hiding something in the ever shifting desert means that you would be lucky to find them again yourself never mind someone else finding them. Hiding them in any one (+) of the millions of honeycombing caves in the North that have been abandoned by the Kurds could leave us hunting for them for years in ideal conditions, never mind a hostile force constantly attacking us. The evidence could be decades in the coming!


Ahhh you are one of those people who believe that dropping bombs
from planes, or firing missiles from ships or helicopters is morally superior
to carrying bombs to the place of detonation.
They all kill people and in the same way and you make these things.
The difference is in the target and the reason for the attack. Attacking another country in the hopes of killing as many of their innocent citizens is one thing while attacking the base for the attacking terrorist in self-defense is completely different. If there were Canadians doing suicide attacks against American Police stations and schools I would expect the Yanks to bomb what ever targets we told them were viable, even if some of the info was deliberately faulty to gain a political edge.

Yeah couldn't have america supporting aggressive war while doing
away with civil rights such as right to trial etc.
The US fought the nazis of course because Germany declared war on the states and did not fight them at all until that happened and that did not happen until 1941.I would like to respond but all I can say is nahuh? If you are talking about the holding of terrorists in Cuba then all I can say is by choosing to become involved in a terror orginization they have given up all rights to claim citizenship in any country by international law. As such they actually do not exsist! And what does the second part have to do with the price of rice in China?

Being anti nazi wasn't the same as being anti german
Being against Israel and its current and recent actions is not equivelant to
being anti Jewish. Actually those attacking Isreal are anti-Jew and thus the very basis for the reason of the attack.

I don't mind debating with you or anyone else but you keep skating dangerously close to the edge of constant flamebaiting and personal attacks! Please limit your debating to just that, debating.

[QUOTE=Omega the Black]Actually those attacking Isreal are anti-Jew and thus the very basis for the reason of the attack.[QUOTE]

What I am about to write is not flameing, but asking some harsh questions.

Please explain this to me. I have no particular affininty for or against Jews, I only know two people who are Jewish; one is a prat, the other is good friend - neither of them are pro-Israeli; and they have little time for Isreali politics; they have very Zimbabwean attitudes. I have reservations about the state of Isreal because it resembles Apathied South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia - who's legacy has haunted my homeland in Southern Africa for far too long. I can empathise with (not condone) Palistinians who throw themselves at the Isreali infustructure with simtax strapped to their backs because there are many times I would like to do that against Robert Mugabe. Does that make me anti-Jewish?

If Isreal is a place only for those who are racially Jewish, how can we in the multi-racial world condone that; if it is a place only for those who are religiously Jewish then what is the difference between it and Iran? Why should we not condem IDF for knocking down Palistinain homes when we rightly condem the ZRP and ZNA for doing the same thing in Harare?

Finally, if I don't believe in the Bible/Tora (as most of the world), how can you justify the existance of a state in terms of the Bible/Tora? The justification of a Jewish homeland in terms of the Holocast doesn't have much resinance outside of Europe and America.

Lastly, I read - though can't remember where - that originally Britain, France and America planned to build an Isreal in Uganda? I dear say that the existance of Isreal in Africa would have been treated in much the same way as it has been in the middle east, so possibly it is the idea of Isreal that is flawed.

Was this thread Goodwined before this guy or has it just happened now?
Oh no no no. 'Nazis' were brought into it looooonnnngggg ago- not by me.

Apparently everyones a Nazi if we don't support the Israelis :rolleyes:


Mein Kampf is the best selling book in Turkey. Going to make excuses for that one too Dhimmi?

And? So what? I hope more and more people read Mein Kampf- so then everyone can see its a load of self glorifying pompus bull. Anyone who knows a smidgen of history can compare the two and see what a vainglorious book it is (and a rather long boring one too).

Again you have generalised the issue- poor debater. Still haven't heard any other argument from you except the 'You're all Nazi's' one- conclusion: poor debater.

Dhimmi? I say 'flamebait'- thats twice i've let it pass. Do it a third and i will report to the mods. If you can't keep the debate civilised then there is no place for you here.

[QUOTE=Omega the Black]Actually those attacking Isreal are anti-Jew and thus the very basis for the reason of the attack.[QUOTE]

What I am about to write is not flameing, but asking some harsh questions.

Please explain this to me. I have no particular affininty for or against Jews, I only know two people who are Jewish; one is a prat, the other is good friend - neither of them are pro-Israeli; and they have little time for Isreali politics; they have very Zimbabwean attitudes. I have reservations about the state of Isreal because it resembles Apathied South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia - who's legacy has haunted my homeland in Southern Africa for far too long. I can empathise with (not condone) Palistinians who throw themselves at the Isreali infustructure with simtax strapped to their backs because there are many times I would like to do that against Robert Mugabe. Does that make me anti-Jewish?

If Isreal is a place only for those who are racially Jewish, how can we in the multi-racial world condone that; if it is a place only for those who are religiously Jewish then what is the difference between it and Iran? Why should we not condem IDF for knocking down Palistinain homes when we rightly condem the ZRP and ZNA for doing the same thing in Harare?

Finally, if I don't believe in the Bible/Tora (as most of the world), how can you justify the existance of a state in terms of the Bible/Tora? The justification of a Jewish homeland in terms of the Holocast doesn't have much resinance outside of Europe and America.

Lastly, I read - though can't remember where - that originally Britain, France and America planned to build an Isreal in Uganda? I dear say that the existance of Isreal in Africa would have been treated in much the same way as it has been in the middle east, so possibly it is the idea of Isreal that is flawed.I don’t think the idea of Israel as a nation is flawed. What I agree with you on, is that in today’s world there is no place for any nation that chooses it’s citizenry based on genetic (racial) or religious grounds.

However there is also no place in the world for people who through acts of terror deliberately target civilians and kill. These actions will only perpetuate the problem.
There is no justification for the murder of a child because they live in a particular country.

However for a modern society to take shape the killing must stop.

I couldn't find a recent thread for this, so here is my own. What is your opinion on Israel's alleged occupation of Palestinian land? The Gaza withdrawl? A potential West Bank withdrawl? ...Please keep it calm, mainly just your opinion. Also state your religion.

I'm an atheist Jew. I think that the Gaza withdrawl was a very good thing. There weren't many Israelis there anyway. As for the West Bank, I think Israel should let go of outposts and small bits of land, but still keep major areas. I don't think Israel is an occupier. I think that Israel should peacefully coexist with the Palestinians. No seperate homeland for them in Israel's current borders. They have several other tax-free nations to go to.

Athiest - jew

What is that ?

Athiest - jew

What is that ?
Oh, you could trawl back about 19 pages to find that one out :D

Appartenly it means that because of the maternal bloodline you can be born 'Jewish' but not necessarily practice the faith. Jewsih being kinda like an ethnicithy.... i think.

Oh, you could trawl back about 19 pages to find that one out :D

Appartenly it means that because of the maternal bloodline you can be born 'Jewish' but not necessarily practice the faith. Jewsih being kinda like an ethnicithy.... i think.


My favorite “Jewish Atheist” is Haber. Haber was a brilliant man, almost responsible for the existence of chemical warfare and he did a lot to help Germany in the First World War. Unfortunately, being “German” was more important to him than being Jewish, so in name he accepted conversion to Christianity.

He thought this would save him, but no matter what he converted to, to the Nazis he was always going to be “Haber the Jew”. He was forced to leave Germany, not even Britain would take him in, so he decided to go to Israel, but the Big Man Upstairs apparently wanted a word with him first. He died without ever setting foot in Israel. Bad Heart you see.

I would expect a similar fate for many others, for whom political affiliations are more important than Their People.

My favorite “Jewish Atheist” is Haber. Haber was a brilliant man, almost responsible for the existence of chemical warfare and he did a lot to help Germany in the First World War. Unfortunately, being “German” was more important to him than being Jewish, so in name he accepted conversion to Christianity.

He thought this would save him, but no matter what he converted to, to the Nazis he was always going to be “Haber the Jew”. He was forced to leave Germany, not even Britain would take him in, so he decided to go to Israel, but the Big Man Upstairs apparently wanted a word with him first. He died without ever setting foot in Israel. Bad Heart you see.

I would expect a similar fate for many others, for whom political affiliations are more important than Their People.

Go go gadget smiting ehhhhh. :p

Oh no no no. 'Nazis' were brought into it looooonnnngggg ago- not by me.

Apparently everyones a Nazi if we don't support the Israelis :rolleyes:



And? So what? I hope more and more people read Mein Kampf- so then everyone can see its a load of self glorifying pompus bull. Anyone who knows a smidgen of history can compare the two and see what a vainglorious book it is (and a rather long boring one too).

Again you have generalised the issue- poor debater. Still haven't heard any other argument from you except the 'You're all Nazi's' one- conclusion: poor debater.

Dhimmi? I say 'flamebait'- thats twice i've let it pass. Do it a third and i will report to the mods. If you can't keep the debate civilised then there is no place for you here.


You are a Dhimmi, by definition. You are a Nazi by inclination. These are not “Calling Names”, they are judgements that I pass on you.

You are Dhimmi, because you serve the wishes of Islam. I believe you do so out of fear, you think that by giving them what they want they will spare you. You are wrong to think this. It is their doctrine to use you against us, then dispose of you. You would know this, but for your other flaw.

“Where the German Soldier Sets Foot, there he stays”. Was Hitler’s remark. He could have observed the reality of the situation and made a better call, but he refused to see a truth that did not agree with his philosophy.

You can look at such obvious facts, The New Palestinian Leader has said himself that he agreed wit the Nazi Solution, the Arabs Stylize themselves after Neo-Nazism quite often. They are not using some Ancient Hindu Symbol for a fortress when they paint swastikas on our tombs. They are doing these things, not because of some Roman inheritance, but because of what it means to them, killing us.

They say it quite often, but you close your ears and do not hear, because as a good Nazi, you see only what “Der Partie” tells you to see and you do not comment regardless, because you only say What “Der Partie” tells you to say.

You do not know the Turks. The Turks who never accepted responsibility for the Genocide they visited upon their Christian Minorities. The Turks who built a tower of Christian Skulls, that can still be visited today. Aptal, salak, bombok akilicin!

You never answered to my Arabic, perhaps you will be fortunate enough to be a Dhimmi, under the Turks instead.

Go go gadget smiting ehhhhh. :p


Bobby Fischer is next.

Bobby Fischer is next.

As long as the guy who made scientology goes next then hurrah. :p

This step of Israel could be an impact for normalizing situation in the reagion. That's for sure.
In addition, this withdrawal is very good example for some imperialistic countries like Russia, to behave the same way and leave occupied territories in Prussia (Konigsberg), Chechnya, Abkhazia, Karelia. Although it isn't possible while Russia is being headed by those KGB clowns in Kremlin :gundge:

As long as the guy who made scientology goes next then hurrah. :p


Hubbard should have stuck to Science Fiction. He has been in Scientologist Hell since 1986.

This step of Israel could be an impact for normalizing situation in the reagion. That's for sure.
In addition, this withdrawal is very good example for some imperialistic countries like Russia, to behave the same way and leave occupied territories in Prussia (Konigsberg), Chechnya, Abkhazia, Karelia. Although it isn't possible while Russia is being headed by those KGB clowns in Kremlin :gundge:


The “Palestinians” are not from Palestine and the Chechens are not from Chechnya.

For that matter, Pakistani “Settlers” have no business in Kashmir, Thailand and Ivory Coast should also be left to take care of their own Islamist Invasions, as does Serbia have a right to defend itself. Sudanese should stop taking slaves in Darfur and Lebanon should be returned to the Lebanese.

Now I for one vote that wherever you live be taken over by Genocidal Islamists so they can build a replica of Chele Kula.

So you say that by the fact that none of the weapons were found is proof that they do not exsist? We know for a fact that they do exsist but the finding of them is literally like finding a needle in a haystack. Hiding something in the ever shifting desert means that you would be lucky to find them again yourself never mind someone else finding them. Hiding them in any one (+) of the millions of honeycombing caves in the North that have been abandoned by the Kurds could leave us hunting for them for years in ideal conditions, never mind a hostile force constantly attacking us. The evidence could be decades in the coming!




Are you really that gullible or is it that you think everyone else is?

The US had their own "weapons inspectors" all over the place since
the invasion and even they have declared that there are and were none.

Even before the invasion of Iraq, sensible people knew there were no WMD's
existing in Iraq in 2002. There was plenty of actual evidence and testimony
to support that view. It had also been the administration stance in
February 2001. No new evidence or indications surfaced in between
that time and when the US started the drumbeat for war with Iraq.

In the claims that there were WMD however the US went further than
to say there were WMD and that there was current production,
they also said they knew where they were.
That story only began to change when the weapons inspectors went back in.
Then they started talking about how big a country it was and how easy it
would be to hide things.

Even a 6 year old child would be surprised to have that kind of lying believed,
to accept it from any public figure, no matter how dim they may be
is quite frankly ludicrous.

You are a Dhimmi, by definition. You are a Nazi by inclination. These are not “Calling Names”, they are judgements that I pass on you.

You are Dhimmi, because you serve the wishes of Islam. I believe you do so out of fear, you think that by giving them what they want they will spare you. You are wrong to think this. It is their doctrine to use you against us, then dispose of you. You would know this, but for your other flaw.

“Where the German Soldier Sets Foot, there he stays”. Was Hitler’s remark. He could have observed the reality of the situation and made a better call, but he refused to see a truth that did not agree with his philosophy.

You can look at such obvious facts, The New Palestinian Leader has said himself that he agreed wit the Nazi Solution, the Arabs Stylize themselves after Neo-Nazism quite often. They are not using some Ancient Hindu Symbol for a fortress when they paint swastikas on our tombs. They are doing these things, not because of some Roman inheritance, but because of what it means to them, killing us.

They say it quite often, but you close your ears and do not hear, because as a good Nazi, you see only what “Der Partie” tells you to see and you do not comment regardless, because you only say What “Der Partie” tells you to say.

You do not know the Turks. The Turks who never accepted responsibility for the Genocide they visited upon their Christian Minorities. The Turks who built a tower of Christian Skulls, that can still be visited today. Aptal, salak, bombok akilicin!

You never answered to my Arabic, perhaps you will be fortunate enough to be a Dhimmi, under the Turks instead.

Yeru, after flogging this dead horse for soooo long- the only thing i have noticed above all else is that the indoctrination you are under is strong- you do not debate because your mind is already made up- you are preaching now.

I don't know what that Arabic said- i'm not anywhere close to fluent in it. The bible/Torah/Koran says a lotta things mate- you wanna take it to a literal level then you can- but the vast majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims don't. They take the positives it gives- a philosophy on the best way to live life.

You are set on the negatives of the holy books- and you transpose that negativity onto others (i.e every single Muslim that ever existed) by stating categorically they wish to annihilate everything else on earth. Might be a surprise to you- but they don't. There is no grand conspiracy to end Israel- only in your mind. Syria, Jordan, Egypt etc all have more pertinent issues to deal with rather then your blatherings. Thats my judgment on you. I'm not going to fling names at you- you advocate genocide- the Nazis advocated genocide- on a level, you speak no different from them, justify it all you can- you are the true Nazi at heart and i pity you for it.

This thread was started by Sel Appia, who has been so disgusted by the way things turned out s/he has withdrawn. So will I. I hope you are happy to rant to yourself when no one listens to you.

I've heard some Jews planned to build a new Israel in an uninhabited part of South America before the birth of the Israeli state in the middle east,and that the Soviet Union created a Jewish Republic in the Russian far east with Yiddish as the official language.
Anyone have any info/comments on that?

What? The Nazis did it to suppress the Jewish freedom fighters. The israelis do it to stay alive.

Nope, not anti-semetic..by a longshot.
Stay alive???? are you joking? its been a long time since israel had a real existential threat. terorizem is not a threat to the existence of the state of israel.
As an isreali/jew/secular kibbutznik i fear the occupied territories are nothing more then playground for ideologic andrenalin seekers and young boys. :sniper:

Yeru, after flogging this dead horse for soooo long- the only thing i have noticed above all else is that the indoctrination you are under is strong- you do not debate because your mind is already made up- you are preaching now.

I don't know what that Arabic said- i'm not anywhere close to fluent in it. The bible/Torah/Koran says a lotta things mate- you wanna take it to a literal level then you can- but the vast majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims don't. They take the positives it gives- a philosophy on the best way to live life.

You are set on the negatives of the holy books- and you transpose that negativity onto others (i.e every single Muslim that ever existed) by stating categorically they wish to annihilate everything else on earth. Might be a surprise to you- but they don't. There is no grand conspiracy to end Israel- only in your mind. Syria, Jordan, Egypt etc all have more pertinent issues to deal with rather then your blatherings. Thats my judgment on you. I'm not going to fling names at you- you advocate genocide- the Nazis advocated genocide- on a level, you speak no different from them, justify it all you can- you are the true Nazi at heart and i pity you for it.

This thread was started by Sel Appia, who has been so disgusted by the way things turned out s/he has withdrawn. So will I. I hope you are happy to rant to yourself when no one listens to you.


You do not understand Arabic, I am not fluent, but I can muddle through it. I can muddle through Turkish as well. You do not know very much about the Arab world, but you have opinions about them, while I know a great deal. If you had good arguments, I would hear them and respond, but you have no good arguments. You simply do not know enough about Arabia or Islam or anything in this venue, to produce anything original or new.

Just as all Nazis did not actively commit war crimes, all Moslems do not actively engage in Jihad; but the core of Nazism was still evil and so is Islam. It is a doctrinal matter. What defined a Nazi and what defines a Moslem. You can not accept this, or rather refuse to admit this. The only question, why you are their apologist.

I know the Koran. I know what a “Moslem” is saying when they read from it. You make plenty of excuses for them, but there are no valid excuses for their beliefs. There is no comparison between Islam and Christianity. The Ku Klux Klan may be taking the Bible out of context, but the Islamists are not doing the same to the Koran. This may be why so few Christians are Klan Members, but when a rumor of the Koran being “Desecrated” is published the Islamists have no trouble bringing up hundreds of thousands of “The Believers” to Riot and Lynch.

The banners hung over the Iranian Missiles, said “Death to Israel” on them. They voted to continue their nuclear program by saying “Death to America”. Who in congress, casts their vote by saying “Death to Islam”? You may claim someone did, but I can get the official transcripts and see quite clearly that it is not there.

Most Moslems, support “Palestinians” and “Palestine” has a map with no Israel on it. Their motives are well established in their founders, who were Nazis, their leaders who have said again and again their support for “The Final Solution” and that they have rejected every offer, no matter how many concessions Israel has made.

I maintain, that you are as good an apologist for them as any the Nazis had. I maintain that you are motivated by something; I maintain that you wish on us things you would not accept to be cast on yourself.

Know that in time, it will be you that suffers. Know that in time, it will be your neck that The Moslems want to chop. Know that your actions will come back to you. Know that Israel is not the only country that the Arabs want destroyed.

You say you will go, fine. I post to other threads. But even if you do not hear me, you will know the awful truth about this, as will all others who might be listening.

You hear me relative? you are not exempt.

There were plenty of Iraqi weapons violations, any one of which would have canceled the Cease Fire. The Warehouses filled with mislabeled chemical weapons components, the missile plans, the buried gas centrifuges and the thirty some odd others that are unaccounted for, the biological research programs which used political prisoners as test subjects, the Binary Sarin Canisters, I can go on. “One” violation invalidates the “NO WMDs!” chant.

It's all very simple. You either buy the "this land was given us by God" argument from one side or the other (plus the "possession is nine tenths..." if you're Israeli) or you go with the internationaly designated boundaries. No need for Nazism on either side, but some need for religious fundamentalism if you're going to go for anything except the international law argument. I'm sure someone must have said this already.

I've heard some Jews planned to build a new Israel in an uninhabited part of South America before the birth of the Israeli state in the middle east,and that the Soviet Union created a Jewish Republic in the Russian far east with Yiddish as the official language.
Anyone have any info/comments on that?


The problem with the Soviet “Jewish Autonomous” region is that “Judaism” was still illegal there. They let Jewish laborers develop the place, mostly as a “Buffer State” then periodically purged it of Jews. Now it is a small place, with Jewish buildings, Yiddish Newspapers, but virtually none of the people speaking Yiddish there are actually “Yids”. It is a “Jewish Autonomous Region” with No Jews in it.

Other plans did not work either. We have a valid legal claim to Israel, we bought the land from the Turks and everything of value there, is there because we built it. The region could not even support the “Palestinians” without us, s their claim is highly implausible.

Of course, being surrounded by Arabs is no fun, but everyone who has a Moslem State next to them has this problem, India, Thailand, Russia, Serbia, Ivory Coast, no one is exempt.

As an isreali/jew/secular kibbutznik i fear the occupied territories are nothing more then playground for ideologic andrenalin seekers and young boys. :sniper:

Like he said...

It's all very simple. You either buy the "this land was given us by God" argument from one side or the other (plus the "possession is nine tenths..." if you're Israeli) or you go with the internationaly designated boundaries. No need for Nazism on either side, but some need for religious fundamentalism if you're going to go for anything except the international law argument. I'm sure someone must have said this already.


International Law did nothing for Rwanda, took the wrong side in Serbia and let Syria wipe out Lebanon. International Law made a mess in Vietnam and let North Korea become the Xenophobic Nuclear Disaster waiting to happen that they are today.

“International Law” has not made sense since dozens of Islamic Theocracies and Dictatorships got individual votes in it. “International Law” is a Joke.

No Islamic State ever recognized any map with Israel on it until it became obvious to them that they could not destroy Israel by force. Their people still have that intention, if you listen to what “They actually say”.

Now why don’t you worry about something important, like the Forty Thousand Slaves Sudan took in Darfur last year.

Stay alive???? are you joking? its been a long time since israel had a real existential threat. terorizem is not a threat to the existence of the state of israel.
As an isreali/jew/secular kibbutznik i fear the occupied territories are nothing more then playground for ideologic andrenalin seekers and young boys. :sniper:


I agree that terrorism is not a direct threat. It is the Asymmetric tactic employed by the less developed side in a conflict. The problem that comes from it is political, especially when the tactics are combined with heavy propaganda and self destructive aspects that paint the aggressor as the victim.

Israel has a huge technological and industrial advantage, but Islam has staying power, growing political influence and will eventually cross a technological barrier that will make them a real threat, so they will no longer need to rely on terrorism. Why do we not use the current technological and industrial advantage, while we still have it? If Iran goes Nuclear, we will no longer be able to guarantee our victory.

We won the war, but we are losing the peace.

International Law did nothing for Rwanda, took the wrong side in Serbia and let Syria wipe out Lebanon. International Law made a mess in Vietnam and let North Korea become the Xenophobic Nuclear Disaster waiting to happen that they are today.

“International Law” has not made sense since dozens of Islamic Theocracies and Dictatorships got individual votes in it. “International Law” is a Joke.

No Islamic State ever recognized any map with Israel on it until it became obvious to them that they could not destroy Israel by force. Their people still have that intention, if you listen to what “They actually say”.

Now why don’t you worry about something important, like the Forty Thousand Slaves Sudan took in Darfur last year.

Seems to me there's a slight difference beteen saying that the UN has never been the world's greatest enforcer and doing away with the whole cncept of state boundaries in favour of "grab what you can".

Israeli "occupation"?
You mean: Israeli occupation, withouth the " " ;)
Like "Nazi occupation" or: Nazi occupation ;)

Why do we not use the current technological and industrial advantage, while we still have it? If Iran goes Nuclear, we will no longer be able to guarantee our victory.

We won the war, but we are losing the peace.

Ooops, missed that. Clearly "Grab what you can get" is the order of the day. So what's the battle plan?

Seems to me there's a slight difference beteen saying that the UN has never been the world's greatest enforcer and doing away with the whole cncept of state boundaries in favour of "grab what you can".


“Not the greatest enforcer”, how about “Corrupt and morally bankrupt puppet of whichever ideology gets more votes”?

The UN should attack France for trying to stop the Ivorians from defending themselves. The UN should support India against Pakistan over Kashmir. The UN should have let Serbia defend itself instead of calling up Clinton to bomb them and the UN should have helped Israel save Lebanon instead of getting in the way, just to cut and run when a few “Peacekeepers” got blown up.

The UN is on the wrong side of most issues and the reason, is that it has too many puny little piss ant countries that block vote in favor of Jihad, Socialism, Fascism and Hypocrisy.

Israel has a right to defend itself and so do all of these other countries. Islam has “Grabbed” too many countries as is.

So the plan is in fact to bomb all those evil freedom-hating Islamic theocracies back to the stone age so that they can't attack you back? How confident are you of success?

No seriously. I get the idea that the UN leaves much to be desired as a way of settling international disputes and I'd agree with you about the Ivory Coast. I just don't see how you do without any notion of International Law, and crying about it not being fair won't change that. Obviously it'd be wonderful if we had a better means of settling international disputes, but in the absence of any other bench-mark for what might be a fair settlment, I don't see what else you do except give it a go, short of eliminating every single Muslim in the Middle East, and probably world-wide, which I take it you aren't seriously suggesting.

Actually, I always did like the idea of Arafat taking on Sharon, celebrity death-match style, winner gets Jerusalem. Ah well, just another missed oppourtunity, I guess :)

I agree that terrorism is not a direct threat. It is the Asymmetric tactic employed by the less developed side in a conflict. The problem that comes from it is political, especially when the tactics are combined with heavy propaganda and self destructive aspects that paint the aggressor as the victim.

Israel has a huge technological and industrial advantage, but Islam has staying power, growing political influence and will eventually cross a technological barrier that will make them a real threat, so they will no longer need to rely on terrorism. Why do we not use the current technological and industrial advantage, while we still have it? If Iran goes Nuclear, we will no longer be able to guarantee our victory.

We won the war, but we are losing the peace.

well, "unfortunatly" we are past the times when we could slaughter a whole people and get away with it. i guess our moral standarts are a bit higher now and we try to look at new ways to progress other then rely on history and current affairs for easy and destructive solutions.

islam was never the main issue in the israeli arab conflict. the plo was/is a secular organization and what islamic fondamentalizm exist now we helped upbring.

your whole first paragraph can be attributd to the israelies as well as the palestinians. we too, apply asymetric tactics. we dont wage full war. we hurt their population moral and economy far worse then they do to us, not to mention the fact that we kill 10 times more civilians.
propaganda is EVERYwhere to be found on the israeli media. and self distructiveness...., well, thats what keeps us going.
to end my argument i think it is rdiculous for countrys with nuclier weapon to tell others not to have it.

The UN is on the wrong side of most issues and the reason, is that it has too many puny little piss ant countries that block vote in favor of Jihad, Socialism, Fascism and Hypocrisy.

i think what you try to say is that we need a jewish UN who is in favor of zionism

I'm a Roman Catholic at a bit of a lull in my faith. Considering joining a small nondenominational church somewhere. Anyhow, Israel has a right to self defense, especially with what they have been through. I believe that one day, all of King David's kingdom needs to be inside modern Israel. That day isn't today. Israel should encourage a two state solution for the time being. It should establish friendly relations with the new, more moderate PA, and should allow foreign troops in. Only then will Israel be guranteed security, and a withdrawl can begin. Unfortunately, once the Palestinians are fine, it may lead a few frustrated Arab states to declare war on Israel again. They are using the Palestinians to try and villify Israel, which is working.

Unfortunately, once the Palestinians are fine, it may lead a few frustrated Arab states to declare war on Israel again. They are using the Palestinians to try and villify Israel, which is working.

i cant see how any country, besides big ones taking on the small ones, can wage a full scale war in this day and age.
the inteligence tecnology is so advanced today that if you move a tank in syria alarmas go off in 20 places.
dont forget that a major part of the conflict was acommpanied by the cold war and served as a testing ground for us and soviet weapons. with the soviets gone and communications so advanced i cant see a way war will come(unless of course it is the israelis or the americans who will provide the armes. that would be a surprise :headbang: ).

well, "unfortunatly" we are past the times when we could slaughter a whole people and get away with it. i guess our moral standarts are a bit higher now and we try to look at new ways to progress other then rely on history and current affairs for easy and destructive solutions.

islam was never the main issue in the israeli arab conflict. the plo was/is a secular organization and what islamic fondamentalizm exist now we helped upbring.

your whole first paragraph can be attributd to the israelies as well as the palestinians. we too, apply asymetric tactics. we dont wage full war. we hurt their population moral and economy far worse then they do to us, not to mention the fact that we kill 10 times more civilians.
propaganda is EVERYwhere to be found on the israeli media. and self distructiveness...., well, thats what keeps us going.
to end my argument i think it is rdiculous for countrys with nuclier weapon to tell others not to have it.


The Soviets were afraid of Mutually Assured Destruction. Moslems attempt it every day. We can not trust them with Nuclear Weapons, the absolute best case scenario is that they use nuclear blackmail until their demands mean our certain death, at which point we get a nuclear war. They think it is worth trading one or even several of their countries for our extermination, they just don’t think they can succeed.

I would argue that Islam is the issue in the Arab/Israeli conflict as well as the Arab/Indian conflict and the Moslem/Serb conflict and the Arab/African conflicts and the Moslem/Russian conflict and what is likely to soon be the European/Moslem conflict. It was under the banner of Islam that they attacked us, twice, not to mention the vast majority of violence which occurred between official wars and the fact that Most Islamic States do not recognize Israel’s right to exist.

They call a lot of their states secular, but can you seriously say they are? At best it is a charade to try and gain support from some more Anti-Semitic Christians. A few leaders are not particularly religious, but they are not particularly secular either.

Iran, was the first big flagship theocracy. We did not put them in power. They took American Hostages and America gave in to their demands and pressured Israel to provide them with weapons in exchange for the hostages. The rest of recent history in the region has been a variety of tangled alliances trying to put that fire out.

i think what you try to say is that we need a jewish UN who is in favor of zionism


I would be happy with a UN that recognizes our right to self defense. I would even be pleased if the UN took the moral high ground in any of these conflicts just once.

i cant see how any country, besides big ones taking on the small ones, can wage a full scale war in this day and age.
the inteligence tecnology is so advanced today that if you move a tank in syria alarmas go off in 20 places.
dont forget that a major part of the conflict was acommpanied by the cold war and served as a testing ground for us and soviet weapons. with the soviets gone and communications so advanced i cant see a way war will come(unless of course it is the israelis or the americans who will provide the armes. that would be a surprise :headbang: ).


If America does not deal with Iran, Israel probably will. This would not mean landing large numbers of ground troops, but extremely heavy air strikes and missiles that would obliterate Iranian Industrial Capacities on the ground. Syria would probably attack Israel in retaliation and Israel would probably be ready and probably cripple Syria in a matter of hours, with the most Technologically Advanced Merkava Tanks in the World, specially designed for fighting an enemy that uses Chemical Weapons, Apache Attack Helicopters with more advanced electronics than American Apaches and other fine toys like the SPYDER anti-aircraft missile systems.

Israel is tiny, but has a weapons industry technologically on par with America. They do have the First Tactical High Energy Laser Defense System.

I would be more than happy to deny you that right and dance on your grave.

Typical Jewish extremist answer. You really are a scumbag aren't you.

So the plan is in fact to bomb all those evil freedom-hating Islamic theocracies back to the stone age so that they can't attack you back? How confident are you of success?
I'd say Islamic theocracies aren't all that far from the stone age to begin with ;)

Typical Jewish extremist answer. You really are a scumbag aren't you.


If you would kill Jews in order to appease Arabs, then why should I care when they cut off your head?

Seriously, if you deny us the right to defend ourselves, then you forfeit any protection you might have had, in the eyes of Justice.

I'd say Islamic theocracies aren't all that far from the stone age to begin with ;)


The problem is that Socially, they have not quite dragged their beards in to the “Age of Chivalry”, which defined a considerable amount of social progress in Europe. They will never reach a point where say, Democracy or Equality can be seriously argued while they have not yet figured out that a man does not have the right to butcher his wife.

It is not really a problem for us that they are so socially backwards, still arguing the Mohammed’s Illiteracy is evidence of his “virtue”. At least it would not be a problem, except that they are not scientifically or technological, in “The Stone Age”. We have gone to great efforts to educate them, bringing their best and brightest to America to teach them engineering and mathematics, chemistry and physics. This is like teaching a three year old to torch cars, this is knowledge, but without moral qualifications.

Perhaps even worse than this, is that the technology available to them is fairly modern. You have men dressed like second century shepherds, thinking like first century fanatics, wielding twentieth century weapons. These are cave men, with Surface to Air Missiles and the Russians are building them a Nuclear Reactor!

The problem is that Socially, they have not quite dragged their beards in to the “Age of Chivalry”, which defined a considerable amount of social progress in Europe. They will never reach a point where say, Democracy or Equality can be seriously argued while they have not yet figured out that a man does not have the right to butcher his wife.

It is not really a problem for us that they are so socially backwards, still arguing the Mohammed’s Illiteracy is evidence of his “virtue”. At least it would not be a problem, except that they are not scientifically or technological, in “The Stone Age”. We have gone to great efforts to educate them, bringing their best and brightest to America to teach them engineering and mathematics, chemistry and physics. This is like teaching a three year old to torch cars, this is knowledge, but without moral qualifications.

Perhaps even worse than this, is that the technology available to them is fairly modern. You have men dressed like second century shepherds, thinking like first century fanatics, wielding twentieth century weapons. These are cave men, with Surface to Air Missiles and the Russians are building them a Nuclear Reactor!

Your racism towards arabs is disturbing. You make me ashamed to be Jewish. Perhaps you are forgetting that it was Islam who sheltered Jews during the times of the crusades, the Muslems who advanced whilst Europeans stalled. They are not primitive, or stupid, merely misled by backward-looking religious fanatics.

Your racism towards arabs is disturbing. You make me ashamed to be Jewish. Perhaps you are forgetting that it was Islam who sheltered Jews during the times of the crusades, the Muslems who advanced whilst Europeans stalled. They are not primitive, or stupid, merely misled by backward-looking religious fanatics.


After Islam conquered its way to Spain, Spain reacted badly. They learned to run an Empire by being conquered by Moslems, the sort of Moslems who made towers from Christian skulls in Serbia.

Spain reacted badly, we were blamed and some of Sephardim did find shelter amounts the Turks, Shelter they bought and paid for. Considering the Turkish take, I frankly think they had selfish motives, not unlike the Catholic Italians who took in the other half of the Sephardim, something which Italy also benefited from. Italian Cooking would not be recognizable today, without Sephardic Contributions, from the New World.

There is a good reason, the majority of our people today, are from Europe and not the middle east. The same reason Zoroastrians are primarily in India after being driven from Iran.

It is a shallow politically correct version of history that paints Europeans as the aggressors in the Crusades. Islam launched its Jihad and reached well in to Europe before Europe stopped turning cheeks and protected itself. You think Europe stagnated, even during the dark ages Europeans were more advanced than the Arabs. Their art was more skilled, their engineering more advanced and their internal conflicts between the Church and various squabbling Nobles is what made the Age of Reason possible.

The fact of the matter is, that the Arab Social Structure predates The European Dark Ages. They can not be trusted with anything more complex than a spoon, because their religion calls for our extermination, even if we hide from them behind talking rocks and trees; I am not making that up, I am quoting them.

The traditional belief that Mohammed’s illiteracy is what made him a suitable prophet has never been apart from them. Historically, a literate Moslem was either a Cleric or a Eunuch. Their “Golden Age” was mostly demonstrated by the spilling of Infidel Blood and trade between the east and west which they facilitated by the simple geography that results from conquering everything in between, not by their own, meager, scientific progress. Algebra may share a name in their language, but it was a result of number system, also named, which were borrowed from Hindus. Alchemy, also an Asian import and only fully realized by people like us who invented glass blowing and did not shy away from the chemical understanding that results primarily from brewing. Do not even try to bring up medicine, we may have been third class protected species, but we were also their doctors, just as we were in Europe.

...

The fact of the matter is, that the Arab Social Structure predates The European Dark Ages. They can not be trusted with anything more complex than a spoon, because their religion calls for our extermination, even if we hide from them behind talking rocks and trees; I am not making that up, I am quoting them.

...
You've informed us of your views upon the Muslims, that's for sure. But what's your proposal? Do you think that all Muslims should be exterminated or converted?

You've informed us of your views upon the Muslims, that's for sure. But what's your proposal? Do you think that all Muslims should be exterminated or converted?


It is easy for Christians to convert us, because they recognize most of what we already have and offer something extra, unconditional forgiveness and a wonderful afterlife for people who are good “from now on”.

Christians never had any luck converting Moslems, Moslems claim not only our religious history but also a variation on Christianity. Then there is a small matter of most Christian Missionaries being killed as son as they try to preach in a Moslem country.

Moslems are good at recruiting as well. They offer a kind of pride, a feeling of superiority proven by their every victory, an excuse for their every failure, an afterlife filled with earthly delights and a destiny of world conquest.

Sikhs, who have stacked up a nice list of assassinated Ghandis are the result of trying to convert Moslems in to Hindus or vice versa.

The Ba’hai would be good in theory, but they are accounted for in Islamic Doctrine, literal warnings that no future prophets would be tolerated. Ba’ Ha’ ullah died a horrible death as do his followers anywhere in the Middle East.

Conversion to another religion then is not possible with Islam, which is why Christians stopped trying.

We can try breaking their religion the way Christianity was broken in Europe. Science can easily give birth to Atheism in any religion that tries to be so precise about the motives of an absolute power. There is one Ex-Moslem, Ibn Warraq. He has written many good books about Islam, at the risk of his own life. This I would consider a good man, a man who rejects a genocidal religion in favor of “Reason”. He is not a Moslem, because he was an ethical man who saw Islam for what it was and when they shoved it down his throat, he spit it out.

Can this be accomplished on a large scale? Maybe, but they need a lesson like unto what broke the back of the Nazis or possibly even what it took to make Japan give up its own suicidal war. The “Wrongness” of their religion must be proven. “Allah” will not stop out missiles.

Our religion is not offering such rewards and arguments as Islam offers. We do, what we do, without any guarantee of an afterlife or any promises of prosperity in our life times. We are given examples of our victories as well as examples of our defeats. We are not guaranteed victory by our religion at all, but succeed or fail depending on things we may or may not even be aware of.

Islam is different, they depend on their success, they point at all the land they have conquered and held, as proof of their superiority. They built “The Dome of the Rock” as a trophy, a sign of their triumph over us, as they did The Tower of Skulls and Babar’s Mosque on top of the Temple of Ram. If they were denied these trophies, if their victories were made horrible defeats, their ideology may be broken, just like the Japanese and the Nazis.

In a short term way, I would be content to contain them. I would build big walls to stop them from invading us and destroy only their most critical weapons programs in order to insure that we can absorb their worst attacks. In the long term however, their deadly ideology which has spread brutally and without stop for Fourteen hundred Years, must be broken.

To put it bluntly and cynically, there is no other way about this:
As long as Israel receives American support and continues to be economically stronger than any other contry in the Middle East, it will dictate terms to the countries surrounding it. This has always been the case in history and frankly, people 100 years ago would have been in full support of Israel. Nowadays you can't be in support of the powerful any more as that would be discriminating agains the weak :confused:
Ergo, the 'educated' West must support Palestine which is far too weak and useless to stand up for itself. Cruel but true.

On another note, I find it outrages that some people refuse to call the likes of Hamas or Hezbollah terrorists as they act like terrorists, look like terrorists and certainly stink like terrorists.

NB: I'm Catholic and I live in Britain

...

We can try breaking their religion the way Christianity was broken in Europe. Science can easily give birth to Atheism in any religion that tries to be so precise about the motives of an absolute power. There is one Ex-Moslem, Ibn Warraq. He has written many good books about Islam, at the risk of his own life. This I would consider a good man, a man who rejects a genocidal religion in favor of “Reason”. He is not a Moslem, because he was an ethical man who saw Islam for what it was and when they shoved it down his throat, he spit it out.

Can this be accomplished on a large scale? Maybe, but they need a lesson like unto what broke the back of the Nazis or possibly even what it took to make Japan give up its own suicidal war. The “Wrongness” of their religion must be proven. “Allah” will not stop out missiles.
It is rather hard to prove any religion wrong... Do you think that a nuclear attack (I gather that you propose to incinerate Mecca) will be... erm... useful for the Jews?

BTW, there are a lot of atheists among the Muslim peoples in Russia.


In a short term way, I would be content to contain them. I would build big walls to stop them from invading us and destroy only their most critical weapons programs in order to insure that we can absorb their worst attacks. In the long term however, their deadly ideology which has spread brutally and without stop for Fourteen hundred Years, must be broken.
Contain them there? There are a lot of Muslims in Israel, for example. Should the world include the territory of Israel in that walled-off 'Muslim prison'?

OK, so are you ready to break the ideology (in this case Islam) by killing its followers?

I'm a Russian/Romanian and Indian Jew, and I say Israel should have kept the land. Forget letting the Palis have that land, everytime there's a suicide bombing in israel find the home of the suicide bomber and LEVEL his whole street.

Bet bombings will go down.

Not true! Brits did the same in Northern Ireland, Irish got became more determined (and angry), resulted in a complete bloodbath for years after.

Not true! Brits did the same in Northern Ireland, Irish got became more determined (and angry), resulted in a complete bloodbath for years after.

However, that is not an entirely applicable example as in thsi case, the occupiers Isarel are far more determined to hang on to the land at any cost. The British in N Ireland were facing a losing battle both there and at home and it was political pressure that finally forced the army out.

It is rather hard to prove any religion wrong... Do you think that a nuclear attack (I gather that you propose to incinerate Mecca) will be... erm... useful for the Jews?

BTW, there are a lot of atheists among the Muslim peoples in Russia.



Contain them there? There are a lot of Muslims in Israel, for example. Should the world include the territory of Israel in that walled-off 'Muslim prison'?

OK, so are you ready to break the ideology (in this case Islam) by killing its followers?


Every religion has its supporting doctrines. We for example, point to what we have survived. We have a long string of remarkable coincidences to point to, statistically speaking, we have beaten remarkable odds. Islam has its doctrine, in the form of its remarkable conquest.

To convince the Japanese that they were wrong, they had to see that they had no chance of even a glorious death fighting Americans face to Face. Germany had to be brutally broken as well and missed the bomb by a very narrow margin.

The same is true for Islam. To disprove their hopes of conquest, they must be made to see, that Allah will not stop our bombs. When we very carefully avoided bombing their Mosques in Afghanistan and Iraq, we shored up their faith considerably as all building around were devastated, but their mosques stood safe.

Yes, I would say many of them must die to break their faith. They wish this on us, given the choice I shall chose them to die and us to live. That is the nature of war and the Purposeful premise of Self Defense.


Judaism is unique in that it describes both a religion and a non-specific ethnicity. Islam is not. Mohammed gave special instructions to Arabs at the Battle of Badr, but anyone can be a Moslem and Moslem is a belief system and not a race at all. There are then, no Atheist Moslems. If one is an Atheist, they are not a Moslem in any sense.


Israel has many Moslems living in it, they are an ungrateful population that has more freedom than any Islamic State would give them, but their religion still advocates our deaths. Some of them were there originally, I would not advocate forcibly removing them. After all, we were strangers in Egypt, but enemies of the people, must be addressed as what they are and these enemies are no different. Sure they should be given a benefit of the doubt, but that doubt must not be so pure that it becomes unreasonable.

India too has many Moslems who have many rights, but show little gratitude. I suggest drawing borders demographically.

Let the Moslems of Israel have reservations like American Indians and maybe even casinos. We can control traffic across our borders and contain them well. In time I am sure they will decline. India may do the same and of course, if they declare war, then we can kill them fairly and honorably.

However, that is not an entirely applicable example as in thsi case, the occupiers Isarel are far more determined to hang on to the land at any cost. The British in N Ireland were facing a losing battle both there and at home and it was political pressure that finally forced the army out.


I object to calling Israel “Occupiers”. This premise assumes falsely that there is a preexisting justifiable entity that can be occupied. No such entity exists.

In fact, without Israel technology, all of these Arabs would not even be able to survive there. Most of them can therefore, not possibly, have been natives. Addressing individual histories reveals a truth. They are as much immigrants to the region as the Israelis, but instead of fleeing genocide, they came to cause one.

At least the Irish are actually from Ireland and unlike Islam, the Irish never conquered anybody, ever. They are just about the only country that can honestly say that now that Hawaii is an American State.

I object to calling Israel “Occupiers”. This premise assumes falsely that there is a preexisting justifiable entity that can be occupied. No such entity exists.

In fact, without Israel technology, all of these Arabs would not even be able to survive there. Most of them can therefore, not possibly, have been natives. Addressing individual histories reveals a truth. They are as much immigrants to the region as the Israelis, but instead of fleeing genocide, they came to cause one.

At least the Irish are actually from Ireland and unlike Islam, the Irish never conquered anybody, ever. They are just about the only country that can honestly say that now that Hawaii is an American State.


The premise assumes nothing whether true or false about there being
a pre existing justifiable entity.
Although what on earth you mean by justifiable in this context is a mystery.

Occupation is when a state,nation or even gang,
occupy any land that is not theirs.

You might argue about whether the Gaza strip or the West Bank belong
to the Palestinians or not.( It won't get you anywhere but you can argue it)
It does not change the fact that those lands do not belong to Israel,
therefore when Israel exerts control over them it is occupation.

The only thing that Israel has any right to exert control over in relation
to the West Bank and the Gaza strip is where they border Israel.
Israel doing anything else is occupation.

Now you can indeed argue that there was a period of time when that
occupation was justifiable but that argument is very old, very tired
and does not bear up to even the mildest scrutiny today.

So the situation is that Israel is occupying those territories the only
argument you can possibly put forward is that the occupation
is justified, there is no argument that can be made that makes it anything
other than occupation.

This whole reality vs fantasy thing you have so much trouble with strikes again.

The premise assumes nothing whether true or false about there being
a pre existing justifiable entity.
Although what on earth you mean by justifiable in this context is a mystery.

Occupation is when a state,nation or even gang,
occupy any land that is not theirs.

You might argue about whether the Gaza strip or the West Bank belong
to the Palestinians or not.( It won't get you anywhere but you can argue it)
It does not change the fact that those lands do not belong to Israel,
therefore when Israel exerts control over them it is occupation.

The only thing that Israel has any right to exert control over in relation
to the West Bank and the Gaza strip is where they border Israel.
Israel doing anything else is occupation.

Now you can indeed argue that there was a period of time when that
occupation was justifiable but that argument is very old, very tired
and does not bear up to even the mildest scrutiny today.

So the situation is that Israel is occupying those territories the only
argument you can possibly put forward is that the occupation
is justified, there is no argument that can be made that makes it anything
other than occupation.

This whole reality vs fantasy thing you have so much trouble with strikes again.


You do not think that Israeli land belongs to Israel? Then maybe it belongs to elves or unicorns? Israel has a right to exist and has a right to the land that it made inhabitable. Arguably there may be allocations for Israeli Arabs or Bedouin Nomads, but The Palestinians never existed and you are assuming their validity by claiming that Israel is “Occupying” them.

When Squatters swarm across your border and lay claim to where ever you live, then you will have a right to protect yourself without being accused of being an “Occupying Imperialist Zionist”. Then again, you deny this right to Israel so why should anyone care when it is your neck on the chopping block? It would serve you right.

Note, I am trying to appeal to your self interest here because you obviously do not care about our people, or Indians, or Serbs, or Native Africans or Hundreds of Russian School Children or the victims of the Spanish Train Bombings or the Thai or anyone else.

I object to calling Israel “Occupiers”. This premise assumes falsely that there is a preexisting justifiable entity that can be occupied. No such entity exists.

In fact, without Israel technology, all of these Arabs would not even be able to survive there. Most of them can therefore, not possibly, have been natives. Addressing individual histories reveals a truth. They are as much immigrants to the region as the Israelis, but instead of fleeing genocide, they came to cause one.

At least the Irish are actually from Ireland and unlike Islam, the Irish never conquered anybody, ever. They are just about the only country that can honestly say that now that Hawaii is an American State.
Pardon? The israelies are sitting upon land that once beloned to another state. That fits the word "occupiers" quite well. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were occupied by force during a war, and were further illegally settled by Israeli people (see the genieva conventions).

Pardon? The israelies are sitting upon land that once beloned to another state. That fits the word "occupiers" quite well. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were occupied by force during a war, and were further illegally settled by Israeli people (see the genieva conventions).


It belonged to another “State” you say? I saw no “State” there. The last “Rulers” of the region were The Ottoman Empire and they have not existed since The First World War.

“Palestine” was never a State and never will be. If you are arguing on behalf of some “States” that “Claimed” the land but rejected the Green Line, then you are going to have one hard sell as they were not only Aggressors, attempting Genocide, but never recognized that this was where their countries ended anyway.

As for the Geneva Conventions, I see them having nothing to do with this matter. Israel is a civilized country, even if so many Moslems seem to equate having their genitals pointed at with having their families butchered in front of them. I see no reason to condemn Israel for the natural consequences of the Islamic World’s having employed Asymmetric Warfare. I understand that it is their goal to manipulate the opinions of soft hearted and soft headed people and the Cynical Analyst should account for this when making evaluations of such data.

It belonged to another “State” you say? I saw no “State” there. The last “Rulers” of the region were The Ottoman Empire and they have not existed since The First World War.

“Palestine” was never a State and never will be. If you are arguing on behalf of some “States” that “Claimed” the land but rejected the Green Line, then you are going to have one hard sell as they were not only Aggressors, attempting Genocide, but never recognized that this was where their countries ended anyway.

As for the Geneva Conventions, I see them having nothing to do with this matter. Israel is a civilized country, even if so many Moslems seem to equate having their genitals pointed at with having their families butchered in front of them. I see no reason to condemn Israel for the natural consequences of the Islamic World’s having employed Asymmetric Warfare. I understand that it is their goal to manipulate the opinions of soft hearted and soft headed people and the Cynical Analyst should account for this when making evaluations of such data.
The west bank and the gaza strip were owned by Egypt and Jordan, if I remember properly. As for the geneva conventions, they apply because it is illegal to send settlers into occupied lands. I shall quote:
Art. 49. Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Pardon? The israelies are sitting upon land that once beloned to another state. That fits the word "occupiers" quite well. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were occupied by force during a war, and were further illegally settled by Israeli people (see the genieva conventions).The land of the West Bank and Gaza has never belonged to an independand sovreign Palestinian state; Yeru Shalayim is right as far as that goes. The last rulers of the areas were Jordan, and Egypt, respectively. before that, they were British mandates, before that, Ottoman.

That a Palestinian state will be established on these territories, (I personally have no compunction calling them "occupied") I have no doubt. Its simply a question of time, and the amount of sffering that will occur in the meantime and the aftermath.

When Squatters swarm across your border and lay claim to where ever you live, then you will have a right to protect yourself without being accused of being an “Occupying Imperialist Zionist”. .


Neither the west bank nor the gaza strip were ever given to be
an Israeli state they are outside of any modern border of Israel.
They also do not fall within any recognized Israeli territories.
The do not belong to Israel.

The only squatters on those lands are and have been the illegal israeli
settlers as well you know.

You have just effectively stated that people in that position of having
squatters swarming across their border and laying claim to their land have
a right to protect themselves which leaves you now in the position of
justifying palestinians fighting Israeli settlers and soldiers.

I really think you should stop now before you justify Israel out of existence.

The west bank and the gaza strip were owned by Egypt and Jordan, if I remember properly. As for the geneva conventions, they apply because it is illegal to send settlers into occupied lands. I shall quote:
Art. 49. Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.


You remember incorrectly. Jordan and Egypt never recognized the “Green Line” so they never actually owned the West Bank or Gaza. This is what the whole 67 War was about.

Beside this, it is not like the “Palestinians” lived there anyway. They could not live there without Israeli technology, desalination and the largest intensive irrigation projects in the history of the world made a wasteland livable. One Million Palestinians could not have lived there, let alone three.

Arafat was born in Cairo, so was Yassin. If you look at any Palestinian and trace their personal history you will find things like this. If anyone is a “Settler” it is then, they.

Neither the west bank nor the gaza strip were ever given to be
an Israeli state they are outside of any modern border of Israel.
They also do not fall within any recognized Israeli territories.
The do not belong to Israel.

The only squatters on those lands are and have been the illegal israeli
settlers as well you know.

You have just effectively stated that people in that position of having
squatters swarming across their border and laying claim to their land have
a right to protect themselves which leaves you now in the position of
justifying palestinians fighting Israeli settlers and soldiers.

I really think you should stop now before you justify Israel out of existence.


If you take everything from Al Jazeera at face value as you so obviously do; but I do not.

“Palestinians” never existed. Jordan and Egypt once had an opportunity to argue for this land but rejected it.

So Israel has every right to it, while the Hordes, who have not built anything but bombs for fifty years and could not even survive there without our generosity, do not.

As one of their sympathizers, with no rational motive, you too forfeit your rights.

I wish you could comprehend this, I really do, because I get really tired of having to bring it up over and over again while you never recognize it.

“The Principle” at stake here is the world's right to resist Islamic Domination. They attack so many different places and so many different people and you mindlessly focus on whatever anti-Semitic line they feed. Why, what possible motive could you have to overlook the knife that seeks your throat as you focus so intently at undermining Israel. Could you possible hate Jews so much that you hate them more than you value your own life? Would you too use so much fuel to burn our bodies that there is not enough remaining for your own cremation?

The land of the West Bank and Gaza has never belonged to an independand sovreign Palestinian state; Yeru Shalayim is right as far as that goes. The last rulers of the areas were Jordan, and Egypt, respectively. before that, they were British mandates, before that, Ottoman.

That a Palestinian state will be established on these territories, (I personally have no compunction calling them "occupied") I have no doubt. Its simply a question of time, and the amount of sffering that will occur in the meantime and the aftermath.


I do doubt it. They were offered a State before, even a contiguous State that cut Israel in two, giving them most of Jerusalem, all of Gaza and the West Bank. They called it a “Swiss Cheese State” and rejected it because it had small Jewish holes in it.

They do not want a state. They never did. They want all of the land Israel has and then they want it to become yet another part of the Islamic Pie. Cut up between their respective countries of actual origin and will probably fight over the scraps.

“Palestine” is just a useful myth. Islam is so large, that no one could sympathize with it against Israel, s like an Iceberg they hide the rest and focus on Palestine, just so they can pretend that Goliath is David in front of an eager international audience.

They will have some measure of autonomy forced on them and then they will screw it up. Remember, that if a country did the kinds of things Palestinians do, it would be an act of war, that frankly would warrant an invasion or even carpet bombing of almost any scale.

In a short term way, I would be content to contain them. I would build big walls to stop them from invading us and destroy only their most critical weapons programs in order to insure that we can absorb their worst attacks. In the long term however, their deadly ideology which has spread brutally and without stop for Fourteen hundred Years, must be broken.

The Great Wall of Isreal.....I don't know, that'll probably temp those Mongols and we all know what they think of great walls. :p

You remember incorrectly. Jordan and Egypt never recognized the “Green Line” so they never actually owned the West Bank or Gaza. This is what the whole 67 War was about.

Beside this, it is not like the “Palestinians” lived there anyway. They could not live there without Israeli technology, desalination and the largest intensive irrigation projects in the history of the world made a wasteland livable. One Million Palestinians could not have lived there, let alone three.

Arafat was born in Cairo, so was Yassin. If you look at any Palestinian and trace their personal history you will find things like this. If anyone is a “Settler” it is then, they.
No, I don't. That was the de juro border. Israel is occupying foreign land.

No, I don't. That was the de juro border. Israel is occupying foreign land.


“No I don’t” is not an argument. The Green Line was rejected by all Arab States, just like they rejected every other proposed map that showed Israel “Occupying” any plot of land big enough to contain a postage stamp, anywhere in the middle east. They only went back and retroactively attempted to enforce it, using their many UN votes and foolish European Sympathizers, because they failed so miserably in their attempts to commit genocide.

So I maintain that Israel is not an “Occupying Power”, except in the sense that they are “Occupying Israel”.

Just as you “Occupy” your home, unless of course, you are one of those Palestinian Squatters that have long ceased “Occupying” their homes, back in Jordan. Or perhaps one of those Kashmiri Squatters who have long since ceased “Occupying” their homes in Pakistan. Or perhaps one of those Northern Ivorian Squatters who have long since ceased “Occupying” their homes in Egypt and so on and so forth.

I keep connecting the dots here and have never gotten a reply, anywhere on this board, from any opposition. A nod of recognition from the Drunken Commies, a comment from a fellow stating that this board is about “Israel”, but I disagree.

This is about Israel “and” this Hydra Head Palestine. As Palestine is only a front for the real foe, it is necessary to address all of Islam’s Wars in order to put this in perspective.

To convince the Japanese that they were wrong, they had to see that they had no chance of even a glorious death fighting Americans face to Face. Germany had to be brutally broken as well and missed the bomb by a very narrow margin.

...

Yes, I would say many of them must die to break their faith. They wish this on us, given the choice I shall chose them to die and us to live. That is the nature of war and the Purposeful premise of Self Defense.

...

Let the Moslems of Israel have reservations like American Indians and maybe even casinos. We can control traffic across our borders and contain them well. In time I am sure they will decline. India may do the same and of course, if they declare war, then we can kill them fairly and honorably.
Good luck, my fair killer.

...

Beside this, it is not like the “Palestinians” lived there anyway. They could not live there without Israeli technology, desalination and the largest intensive irrigation projects in the history of the world made a wasteland livable. One Million Palestinians could not have lived there, let alone three.

Arafat was born in Cairo, so was Yassin. If you look at any Palestinian and trace their personal history you will find things like this. If anyone is a “Settler” it is then, they.
Have you read The Iron Wall by Zeev Jabotinsky, written in 1923? If not, my advice is to read it.

If you take everything from Al Jazeera at face value as you so obviously do; but I do not.

“Palestinians” never existed. Jordan and Egypt once had an opportunity to argue for this land but rejected it.

So Israel has every right to it, while the Hordes, who have not built anything but bombs for fifty years and could not even survive there without our generosity, do not.

As one of their sympathizers, with no rational motive, you too forfeit your rights.

I wish you could comprehend this, I really do, because I get really tired of having to bring it up over and over again while you never recognize it.

“The Principle” at stake here is the worlds right to resist Islamic Domination. They attack so many different places and so many different people and you mindlessly focus on whatever anti-Semitic line they feed. Why, what possible motive could you have to overlook the knife that seeks your throat as you focus so intently at undermining Israel. Could you possible hate Jews so much that you hate them more than you value your own life? Would you too use so much fuel to burn our bodies that there is not enough remaining for your own cremation?


Palestine existed and it was divided up to provide a state for Israel.
The bits not given to Israel do not become Israel's because that is what
you would like to be the case.

Regardless of who you think should be entitled to them, the facts are
simple, they are not part of Israel.
As such Israel occupies them.

Occupation does not become something else because it is Israel who does it.
Mistreatment does not become generosity.
Illegality does not become lawful.

Again I urge you to draw a distinction between the fantasies in your head
and reality.
I have no hatred at all for jews, I have no problem with people being jewish
except in as far as I dislike religions of all stripes and that goes
for christians moslems and any other form of that insanity
but of course
being jewish does not necessarily relate to being religious and it
also does not necessarily equate to being a zionist.

Even being a zionist is understandable given the history of many hundreds
of years, I can well understand why a people who have been through
so much in other countries where being jewish was held against them
and where laws were made specifically to persecute them,
would long for a homeland of their own.

But people like you who reflect all that evil back
onto another people are not representative of any decent person, jewish or not.

Your hatred oozes and spurts out of you.
It is probably less distressing to witness than it must be for you to experience.

Seek help.

I don't have sufficient information as to wether the withdrawl of Israeli settlers who had literally made the Gaza strip liveable is a good thing or not. ask me again in a few years.

my whole take on this palestine/Israel thing is based on history.

It all goes back to an inheritance dispute thousands of years ago. that's why the Muslims and Jews hate each other. after WW2, many survivors of the holocoust were given their own nation by the British empire as an act of mercy. and the muslims immediately attacked the new nation of Israel. it was during these years of constant war that the small nation proved itself in my eyes to be superior to all it's neighbors. they were beste on all sides, armed with whatever they could get for cheap. hell, they even used BF109s and Mauser 98Ks. one thing about the Israelis, they're resourceful. they took Grant tanks and made them into excellent tanks. they used shermans against T72s, and won. most importantly, they managed to drive off their enemies time and again, even gaining ground, often times with no help at all. this nation which is about the same size as rhode Island has stood alone against an entire region. for that i respect them, and feel that they deserve every centimeter of land they can hold on to. the palestinians, however, have never really had a nation in that area, let alone having the capitol in Jerusilem. the only people who have ever had a nation encompasing the area of israel, are the Israelis. i feel that the only reason the palestinians want Israel, is because the Israelis own it.

u need to know some missing links in the arab-israeli conflict

_1: Israel was adopted by britian then was literally adopted by america.
_2: Arabs had USSR backing them up with wreked weapons.
_3: size doesnt matter. japan kicked usa's ass if wasnt for the big NUKS...
_4: Palistinians want israel because its there lands, American emmigrants got away with it, in takinng natives lands, but now that history, but israelis wont get away with it, unless they kill all 300 million arabs..
_5: Palestinians are the native of the land of palistine which is the land form the dead sea and jordan river to the mediteranean sea, it was called that from the age of the pharoes and greeks...
_6: i dont think ill ever respect someone who stole a whole country from helpless people... i think you need to think again...

“No I don’t” is not an argument. The Green Line was rejected by all Arab States, just like they rejected every other proposed map that showed Israel “Occupying” any plot of land big enough to contain a postage stamp, anywhere in the middle east. They only went back and retroactively attempted to enforce it, using their many UN votes and foolish European Sympathizers, because they failed so miserably in their attempts to commit genocide.

So I maintain that Israel is not an “Occupying Power”, except in the sense that they are “Occupying Israel”.

Just as you “Occupy” your home, unless of course, you are one of those Palestinian Squatters that have long ceased “Occupying” their homes, back in Jordan. Or perhaps one of those Kashmiri Squatters who have long since ceased “Occupying” their homes in Pakistan. Or perhaps one of those Northern Ivorian Squatters who have long since ceased “Occupying” their homes in Egypt and so on and so forth.

I keep connecting the dots here and have never gotten a reply, anywhere on this board, from any opposition. A nod of recognition from the Drunken Commies, a comment from a fellow stating that this board is about “Israel”, but I disagree.

This is about Israel “and” this Hydra Head Palestine. As Palestine is only a front for the real foe, it is necessary to address all of Islam’s Wars in order to put this in perspective.

"You remember incorrectly". No, I don't. The UN and the US agree with me. As does most every other country.

You have no intellectual integrity if you refuse to even acknowledge that. I'm about a sympathetic to the Israeli cause as they come (I have quite a few family members that live in Israel), but simply ignoring blatant facts and acting as a bully does not help things.

I do doubt it. They were offered a State before, even a contiguous State that cut Israel in two, giving them most of Jerusalem, all of Gaza and the West Bank. They called it a “Swiss Cheese State” and rejected it because it had small Jewish holes in it.
That was in 47, many years ago. The situation, the "they" and the conditions are entirely different now. The Palestinians have no options other than to accept a state on the West bank and Gaza.....no middle eastern arab nations a rushing to their aid with offers of war on Israel. Or any aid whatsoever for that matter.

They do not want a state. They never did. They want all of the land Israel has and then they want it to become yet another part of the Islamic Pie. Cut up between their respective countries of actual origin and will probably fight over the scraps. I don't think so. Most palestinians do want a state. Whether they always did or not is complicated...the evolution of the Palestinians as a nation distinct from other surrounding arabs has been tied with their struggle against the statee of Israel. But its fair to say that people generally want independance. Palestinians no longer want their "countries of origin"to have the scraps of Israel - they want their own national identity.
“Palestine” is just a useful myth. Islam is so large, that no one could sympathize with it against Israel, s like an Iceberg they hide the rest and focus on Palestine, just so they can pretend that Goliath is David in front of an eager international audience.This isn't World Islam Vs. Israel. Its a political struggle between groups demanding the same territory. That the conflict has been manipulated for worldwide islamic propaganda is hard to deny. Public perception of the conflict as a result of publicity (david & goliath and similar rhetoric) is overrated in importance anyway.

They will have some measure of autonomy forced on them and then they will screw it up. Remember, that if a country did the kinds of things Palestinians do, it would be an act of war, that frankly would warrant an invasion or even carpet bombing of almost any scale.They have screwed it up pretty monumentally so far, but I hope for improvement. There seems to be goodwill in the current PA leadership, and a will to adress corruption. It will take years of practice and mentorship to fully rectify, but I think its possible, and essential. Lets face it: when you're trying to transition from a terrorist orginization (the PLO) to a legitimate governing power, there will be serious defficiencies.
And carpet bombing? what? Israel is capable of using, and does use, more percise methods to protect its citizens.

Let the Moslems of Israel have reservations like American Indians and maybe even casinos. We can control traffic across our borders and contain them well. In time I am sure they will decline. India may do the same and of course, if they declare war, then we can kill them fairly and honorably.

You do realize that Reservations are almost always impoverished and neglected areas rife with problems that only aggravate the resentments of the people who are forced to reside there? Sort of like what happened before the settlements were pulled out of?

As for Casinos, you are just being facetious and disingenuous right? From what I read online, gambling is forbidden in Islam so sounds to me like you're copping out here. I don't even know why I bother to mention this as from all your posts you're more than happy to see every ethnic Arab exterminated. Wow, and here I thought the one group that was the closest to being exterminated would develop a special loathing for doing that to others.

By the way, did you celebrate out loud when Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir pulled the triggers on their guns?

Good luck, my fair killer.


Have you read The Iron Wall by Zeev Jabotinsky, written in 1923? If not, my advice is to read it.


There are a million Israeli Arabs, where do you suppose they came from? There are now four countries, not including “Palestine”, where the Roman named region of “Palestine” used to be. How do you suppose that happened?

No one can argue that the “Word” Palestine is new, it obviously dates back to Roman Rule. No one can argue that “Arabs” did not exist, they obviously did.

But what exactly happened between the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the millions of Arabs claiming that they were farming fields of green in a salted wasteland?

Lebanon was created distinct from the rest because it had a large Christian Majority. Israel was created because we had bought a lot of land from the Turks and bought a promise from the British to recognize our legitimate claims. Syria and Jordan provided two Royal families with Islamic Kingdoms.

Syria always claimed that Palestine was Southern Syria. Jordan always claimed Transjordan. Egypt never stopped trying to get its foot in the door. Lebanon was annihilated, but Israel endures.

None of the wars ever ended. Syria is still at war today. Their operatives are still claiming to be “Palestinian”, whether they fight in the already decimated Lebanon or as far south as Gaza.

One point, there will never be peace between we and Islam, just as there will never be peace between Islam and Hinduism, or Islam and Buddhism or Islam and animism, or Islam and Secularism. Islam forbids such peace, not because we are “Alien”, but because we do not submit.

This is about Israel “and” this Hydra Head Palestine. As Palestine is only a front for the real foe, it is necessary to address all of Islam’s Wars in order to put this in perspective.

do you really believe that crap???

Arabs (Muslims and Christians) are fighting for their holy places,
they are not safe under israeli rule.
like
-The burning of the dome of the rock (the building with a golden dome)
-Building a tunnel under the Aqsa Mosque (third holiest place for muslims worldwide)-rediculously the mosque will collapse, and more rediculousely trying to make an agreement with palistinians in jerusalem by giving them the land and israel getting the underground area...
-throwing pigs heads in muslim mosques
-beating up clerics in jerusalim, and not allowing them to enter there churches.
-not allowing muslims to go into there holy places.

these acts are immitating for muslims., especially that they feal helpless.

I,ve heard that Jews were never terrorists, but people forget that in the 30s the Jews waged a terrorist war on brition just ask LORD MOYNE.

You're obviously a closeted nazi. Look at your username and the comments you are making. All nazis must die horribly painful deaths.

Palestine existed and it was divided up to provide a state for Israel.
The bits not given to Israel do not become Israel's because that is what
you would like to be the case.

Regardless of who you think should be entitled to them, the facts are
simple, they are not part of Israel.
As such Israel occupies them.

Occupation does not become something else because it is Israel who does it.
Mistreatment does not become generosity.
Illegality does not become lawful.

Again I urge you to draw a distinction between the fantasies in your head
and reality.
I have no hatred at all for jews, I have no problem with people being jewish
except in as far as I dislike religions of all stripes and that goes
for christians moslems and any other form of that insanity
but of course
being jewish does not necessarily relate to being religious and it
also does not necessarily equate to being a zionist.

Even being a zionist is understandable given the history of many hundreds
of years, I can well understand why a people who have been through
so much in other countries where being jewish was held against them
and where laws were made specifically to persecute them,
would long for a homeland of their own.

But people like you who reflect all that evil back
onto another people are not representative of any decent person, jewish or not.

Your hatred oozes and spurts out of you.
It is probably less distressing to witness than it must be for you to experience.

Seek help.


You still have not answered any of my points regarding all of the other countries that have the same claims being made against them by the same people. Just how much of your day do you devote to the “Poor Chechens” or “The poor Kashmiri” or “The Poor Sudanese”?

You devote a lot of time to repeating the false accusations against us, but spare not a cell of your mind to all of the Christians and Hindus that Islam seeks to destroy. All the Christians and Hindus that defend themselves, or die.

You hold us to an irrational standard. You deny us the right to defend ourselves and accuse of crimes, for which the only proof is the word, of people who admit their goal is genocide. The word of people who believe that their word is worth four times your own.

You say you do not wish our deaths, but you put a lot of your free time in to arguing for exactly that. What am I to think of you but the worst?

Your insults would hurt more if they were true, really they would, but they could come out of a crack jack box. If you can not be polite or right, at least be original.

...

Syria always claimed that Palestine was Southern Syria. Jordan always claimed Transjordan. Egypt never stopped trying to get its foot in the door. Lebanon was annihilated, but Israel endures.

How's Israel different from those countries? BTW, Jordan IS Transjordan.


Zeev Jabotinsky was hardly a dhimmi (Yeru Shalain, that's your insult of choice, I gather) or a Jew-hater, so let's read what he wrote back in 1923.

'Any native people -- its all the same whether they are civilized or savage -- views their country as their national home, of which they will always be the complete masters. They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner. And so it is for the Arabs. Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile.'

There were no Palestinian Arabs there, of course, weren't they?

'Thus we conclude that we cannot promise anything to the Arabs of the Land of Israel or the Arab countries. Their voluntary agreement is out of the question. Hence those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population -- an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.'

The native population? What native population? There was none!

'I am optimistic that they will indeed be granted satisfactory assurances and that both peoples, like good neighbors, can then live in peace. But the only path to such an agreement is the iron wall, that is to say the strengthening in Palestine of a government without any kind of Arab influence, that is to say one against which the Arabs will fight. In other words, for us the only path to an agreement in the future is an absolute refusal of any attempts at an agreement now.'

Jabotinsky was not a hypocrite, that's for sure. And it seems that he was more clear-minded than you.

One point, there will never be peace between we and Islam, just as there will never be peace between Islam and Hinduism, or Islam and Buddhism or Islam and animism, or Islam and Secularism. Islam forbids such peace, not because we are “Alien”, but because we do not submit.

"You remember incorrectly". No, I don't. The UN and the US agree with me. As does most every other country.

You have no intellectual integrity if you refuse to even acknowledge that. I'm about a sympathetic to the Israeli cause as they come (I have quite a few family members that live in Israel), but simply ignoring blatant facts and acting as a bully does not help things.


I don’t suppose your family living in Israel are amongst the million Israeli Arabs? I will be in Israel again in a few years and having people walking around saying blatantly incorrect things about the “Green Line” does not help.

It also does not mater whether every man, woman and child on earth agree with you. The fact remains, that not a single Islamic State accepted the green line when it was offered and only retroactively pushed for it after their failure became undeniable.

History does not change, no matter how much public opinion shifts. Of course history can be rewritten, but who besides a Moslem would want Goebbels teaching history?

.There are a million Israeli Arabs, where do you suppose they came from? There are now four countries, not including “Palestine”, where the Roman named region of “Palestine” used to be. How do you suppose that happened?.

and these four countries are where today???


Lebanon was created distinct from the rest because it had a large Christian Majority.

lebanon always existed since the times of the phoneicians 3000 years ago, then into a roman state, then into the county of tripoli 800 years ago, then into the ottoman empire, then into lebanon.

None of the wars ever ended. Syria is still at war today. Their operatives are still claiming to be “Palestinian”, whether theyfight in the already decimated Lebanon or as far south as Gaza.

ummm... wrong...
Syrians are still at war because israel is occupying the golan heights... do you think we have no cable here????


One point, there will never be peace between we and Islam, just as there will never be peace between Islam and Hinduism, or Islam and Buddhism or Islam and animism, or Islam and Secularism. Islam forbids such peace, not because we are “Alien”, but because we do not submit.

i dont call islam fighting with buddhism, animism, secularism.. and if you mean hinduism in india, let me assure you that its almost over when pakistan and india split back in the 40's
dude read some books

do you really believe that crap???

Arabs (Muslims and Christians) are fighting for their holy places,
they are not safe under israeli rule.
like
-The burning of the dome of the rock (the building with a golden dome) Burning? its still there. Also, Muslim clerics have controll over the entire compound that contains the dome of the rock, and the Al-Aqsa mosque. Israeli security does not often infringe this, the exceptions being when rocks are thrown down at Jewish worshipers at the Wailing Wall.
-Building a tunnel under the Aqsa Mosque (third holiest place for muslims worldwide)-rediculously the mosque will collapse, and more rediculousely trying to make an agreement with palistinians in jerusalem by giving them the land and israel getting the underground area... The area under the temple mount platfrom is already partially hollow. in fact, carefull archeological excavation there would yeild treasures. This underground treasure trove is being unnoficially and inexpertly explored under the orders of muslim clerics. The damage to proceless archeological finds that concern ALL OUR HISTORIES, and ALL OUR FAITHS, just turns my stomach. This area must be explored by archeologists. -throwing pigs heads in muslim mosques
-beating up clerics in jerusalim, and not allowing them to enter there churches.
-not allowing muslims to go into there holy places.I'll need examples. For the last point, sometimes security trumps religious ritual. as for the first and second, I've never heard of these events, and if they occured they were illegal, and not a policy.

u need to know some missing links in the arab-israeli conflict

_1: Israel was adopted by britian then was literally adopted by america.
_2: Arabs had USSR backing them up with wreked weapons.
_3: size doesnt matter. japan kicked usa's ass if wasnt for the big NUKS...
_4: Palistinians want israel because its there lands, American emmigrants got away with it, in takinng natives lands, but now that history, but israelis wont get away with it, unless they kill all 300 million arabs..
_5: Palestinians are the native of the land of palistine which is the land form the dead sea and jordan river to the mediteranean sea, it was called that from the age of the pharoes and greeks...
_6: i dont think ill ever respect someone who stole a whole country from helpless people... i think you need to think again...

!. Israel had to fight for its independence from Britain and only well after its independence (and after the Six-Day War) did America start giving it modern weapons.
2. The weapons Arabs had were by no means 'wrecked'; they were the most technologically advanced weapon systems avaliable at that time. The poor training of Arab soldiers is the reason, the weapons they had were second to none.
3. When you are outnumbered 50 to 1 it does matter. Japan was outnumbered 2 to 1 and they were about to be invaded by the US, with or without nukes.
4. Too bad Israel is now Israeli lands. The vast majority of Israeli Jews (over 70%) were born in Israel. The West Bank and Gaza are Palestinian lands. But Jews should not leave the West Bank just as Arabs should not leave Israel.
5. Things change. Muslims are now entering Europe in record numbers. It would be racist to demand that they return to their homes, so why ask Jews to return 'home' when they are already there?
6. Oh, just like the Arabs took North Africa from the Berbers, the native people of northern Africa. Arabs had been colonizing many parts of the world as soon as they went on a regional conquest around 600-800 AD

I don’t suppose your family living in Israel are amongst the million Israeli Arabs? I will be in Israel again in a few years and having people walking around saying blatantly incorrect things about the “Green Line” does not help.

It also does not mater whether every man, woman and child on earth agree with you. The fact remains, that not a single Islamic State accepted the green line when it was offered and only retroactively pushed for it after their failure became undeniable.

...
The Green Line, or the Armistice Line of 1949, was set by a series of Israeli-Arab agreements. It was agreed by the Israeli and Arab representatives together to be a provisional border of Israel. What are you talking about the Arab ststes rejecting it when it was offered? They drew it!

The Green Line, or the Armistice Line of 1949, was set by a series of Israeli-Arab agreements. It was agreed by the Israeli and Arab representatives together to be a provisional border of Israel. What are you talking about the Arab ststes rejecting it when it was offered? They drew it!
I think you're confused. When people refer to 'the green line" they're talking about the border after the six-day war in 1967.

I think you're confused. When people refer to 'the green line" they're talking about the border after the six-day war in 1967.
Erm... the border along the Suez Channel, you mean? No, I don't think so.

I don’t suppose your family living in Israel are amongst the million Israeli Arabs? I will be in Israel again in a few years and having people walking around saying blatantly incorrect things about the “Green Line” does not help.

It also does not mater whether every man, woman and child on earth agree with you. The fact remains, that not a single Islamic State accepted the green line when it was offered and only retroactively pushed for it after their failure became undeniable.

History does not change, no matter how much public opinion shifts. Of course history can be rewritten, but who besides a Moslem would want Goebbels teaching history?
No, they are Jewish. The fact still remains dispite whatever propaganda you wish to swallow that Israel is in violation of the geneva conventions in a few places, and that does not help the Israeli cause one bit.

That was in 47, many years ago. The situation, the "they" and the conditions are entirely different now. The Palestinians have no options other than to accept a state on the West bank and Gaza.....no middle eastern arab nations a rushing to their aid with offers of war on Israel. Or any aid whatsoever for that matter.

I don't think so. Most palestinians do want a state. Whether they always did or not is complicated...the evolution of the Palestinians as a nation distinct from other surrounding arabs has been tied with their struggle against the statee of Israel. But its fair to say that people generally want independance. Palestinians no longer want their "countries of origin"to have the scraps of Israel - they want their own national identity.
This isn't World Islam Vs. Israel. Its a political struggle between groups demanding the same territory. That the conflict has been manipulated for worldwide islamic propaganda is hard to deny. Public perception of the conflict as a result of publicity (david & goliath and similar rhetoric) is overrated in importance anyway.

They have screwed it up pretty monumentally so far, but I hope for improvement. There seems to be goodwill in the current PA leadership, and a will to adress corruption. It will take years of practice and mentorship to fully rectify, but I think its possible, and essential. Lets face it: when you're trying to transition from a terrorist orginization (the PLO) to a legitimate governing power, there will be serious defficiencies.
And carpet bombing? what? Israel is capable of using, and does use, more percise methods to protect its citizens.


’47, ’67, ‘72, ‘79, ‘05. It makes no difference. Their objective has no changed in Fourteen Hundred Years. The Infidel of the Day may change, but the motive is written “In Allah’s Words as Spoken by the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammed” while he was hiding from his elderly wife/aunt in a cave.

You can not defeat an ideology just by picking off a few leaders. You have to understand, that I see this an Ideological War, with Islam on one side and us on the other. Of course there are many wars that Islam fights, with different people on the other side. I think it would be best if we stopped playing heads of the Hydra against each other and united against it.

I think it is relevant that Arabs traveled thousands of miles to Join “Chechens” in gunning down an entire school full of children. I think it is significant that Pakistan has sold technology that it acquired illegally to Iran and that Iran, though it can thank Israel for its very survival in the face of Saddam, has “Death to Israel” draped over their missiles. I think it significant that the accusations made against Israel are almost identical to the false accusations made against Serbia. I think it is significant that the French so easily put themselves between the Ivorians and those attacking them.

I think, this is One War, being fought on many fronts and Islam, prefers that Europeans and Americans focus on Israel and pretend that the Palestinians are really alone. As stands, no Islamic State will openly attack Israel, they know they wold have no chance. Just as it should be.

The current Palestinian Authority has absolutely no gratitude for the Gaza Withdrawal, their leader for today is a man who writes of his agreement with the Nazis “Final Solution” and is demanding “All of their land”. Corruption is only the beginning of this problem.

“Carpet Bombing” may be too strong a word. All of Israel is not big enough to absorb one Carpet’s worth of bombs. Maybe whatever is turned over to the Palestinians can be subject to “Throw Rug” bombing when they launch their next and inevitable campaign to “Drive” us all “In to the sea”.

Arab League

WWII populations:
Japan 70 million
United States 133 million

United States to Japan-1.9

Current Arab/Israeli populations:
Israel: 6.3 million
Egypt: 73 million
Syria: 19 million
Jordan: 5.4 million
Saudi Arabia: 23.4 million
Lebanon: 3.5 million

Total Arab/Israeli populations:
Israel: 6.3 million
Arab (only neighboring Israel, Saudi Arabia is bordering Israel by water)
124.3 million

Arab states to Israel- 19.7 to 1 (excluding the many other Arab states that sympathize and occationally donate military forces, such as Libya, Algeria, Morocco, and Yemen.)

!. Israel had to fight for its independence from Britain and only well after its independence (and after the Six-Day War) did America start giving it modern weapons.
2. The weapons Arabs had were by no means 'wrecked'; they were the most technologically advanced weapon systems avaliable at that time. The poor training of Arab soldiers is the reason, the weapons they had were second to none.
3. When you are outnumbered 50 to 1 it does matter. Japan was outnumbered 2 to 1 and they were about to be invaded by the US, with or without nukes.
4. Too bad Israel is now Israeli lands. The vast majority of Israeli Jews (over 70%) were born in Israel. The West Bank and Gaza are Palestinian lands. But Jews should not leave the West Bank just as Arabs should not leave Israel.
5. Things change. Muslims are now entering Europe in record numbers. It would be racist to demand that they return to their homes, so why ask Jews to return 'home' when they are already there?
6. Oh, just like the Arabs took North Africa from the Berbers, the native people of northern Africa. Arabs had been colonizing many parts of the world as soon as they went on a regional conquest around 600-800 AD

_1: Israel had to fight for its independence?????, are you serious???, did you ever hear of the belfour pact???.how can it be fighting for independence, while sitting on tables for a free land with extra artillary against their neighbors.
_2: wreked, im sure they were, they were the wepons the russians didnt need after ww2, and i agree that the arab soldiers were not trained enaugh, while zionist forces participated in the ww2.
_3:but if you are over numbered without modern weapons its hard to win, like in iraq, americans had the best technology their, while iraq had a huge number, but they still lost the war.
_4:70%???? i doubt it, please show me some back up, talking is cheap....
even so that why arabs are asking for 2 countries living along, palestine and israel.
_5: msulims in Europe are not asking for a muslims states of banana, and trying to kick out french or germans out of their lands, they are immigrating just like africans are immigrating to france, they are immigratring for good lifes, like what happened in the USA, the american dream.... not immigrating to establish a country of their own.
_6:Arabs were spreading islam, plus these places were already conqured by either persians or romans, so the berbers rathered to be under islamic rule, then roman rule.... the arabs never conqured, is that what they teach you in your schools, the arabs spreaded out islam in arabic, and when it was spreaded arabic became more popular then the other native languages.... do you really think that the 300 million arabs in the world came from thousands of bedouins in arabian peninsula, what are 6 years old....
????

No, they are Jewish. The fact still remains dispite whatever propaganda you wish to swallow that Israel is in violation of the geneva conventions in a few places, and that does not help the Israeli cause one bit.
You can get hung up on your Geneva convention highground, or materially realize that there are pragmatic solutions to be achieved, none of which include going back in time.
The large settlement blocs in the WB close the green line will not be evacualted, for one. two, reasonable negotiated trades of land elsewhere will be carried out. You need to face reality rather than pointing fingers.

How's Israel different from those countries? BTW, Jordan IS Transjordan.


Zeev Jabotinsky was hardly a dhimmi (Yeru Shalain, that's your insult of choice, I gather) or a Jew-hater, so let's read what he wrote back in 1923.

'Any native people -- its all the same whether they are civilized or savage -- views their country as their national home, of which they will always be the complete masters. They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner. And so it is for the Arabs. Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile.'

There were no Palestinian Arabs there, of course, weren't they?

'Thus we conclude that we cannot promise anything to the Arabs of the Land of Israel or the Arab countries. Their voluntary agreement is out of the question. Hence those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population -- an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.'

The native population? What native population? There was none!

'I am optimistic that they will indeed be granted satisfactory assurances and that both peoples, like good neighbors, can then live in peace. But the only path to such an agreement is the iron wall, that is to say the strengthening in Palestine of a government without any kind of Arab influence, that is to say one against which the Arabs will fight. In other words, for us the only path to an agreement in the future is an absolute refusal of any attempts at an agreement now.'

Jabotinsky was not a hypocrite, that's for sure. And it seems that he was more clear-minded than you.


Dhimmi is a good word for those who would live under Islam, without joining their oppressors in full. Perhaps spend their time denying Israel’s right to defend itself against a Horde that outnumbers them Two hundred and Forty to One.

I also like to call people Chomskites.

I have a fair amount of respect for this man, though a lot is lost in the terminology, which I do not believe you understand.

You see, Jordan, Southern Syria, Lebanon and Israel “Are” Collectively Palestine, which was never a country at all, but a region. Why “The Palestine Pound” was printed in Hebrew by Jewish “Palestinians”.

It is true, that they were Nomads, they still are. Bedouin Nomads to be exact, Israeli Arabs today. You see Israel has Moslems living in it, full citizens who earn their shekels and serve in the IDF and collect benefits as full fledged citizens.

Very different from those so called “Palestinians” that you are so fond of, people from Jordan, lead by a man from Cairo and reinforced by the Syrian Hit Squads who eradicated Lebanon in the name of “Palestine”.

The river is called the Jordan. Jordan is the country on the Eastern side today. They still want to be “Transjordan” as in “Both sides of the Jordan”. They will never be, unless people like you get their way, forking Israel over to the “Palestinians” so they can fork it over to the countries they actually came from.

Arab League

WWII populations:
Japan 70 million
United States 133 million

United States to Japan-1.9

Current Arab/Israeli populations:
Israel: 6.3 million
Egypt: 73 million
Syria: 19 million
Jordan: 5.4 million
Saudi Arabia: 23.4 million
Lebanon: 3.5 million

Total Arab/Israeli populations:
Israel: 6.3 million
Arab (only neighboring Israel, Saudi Arabia is bordering Israel by water)
124.3 million

Arab states to Israel- 19.7 to 1 (excluding the many other Arab states that sympathize and occationally donate military forces, such as Libya, Algeria, Morocco, and Yemen.)


so what your point????, just because the arab population is bigger that means they can give up their lands????
, fine, tomorow ill ask for the arab governments to attack india and conqure a piece of it, then they can leave us alone because we are a minority!!! :headbang:

I think, this is One War, being fought on many fronts and Islam, prefers that Europeans and Americans focus on Israel and pretend that the Palestinians are really alone. This, I think, is the core differance between us. You believe in a unified war of Muslims against western civilization, palestine and Israel being only a tool. I believe in pragmatically settling conflicts one by one, by ensuring that people's lives will be better after than they were before. Ideology is neither permanent, nor inflexible.
Yes, Islamic nations are the most backward and cruel group of dictatorships in the world, and its not a coincidence. BUT, they will not be defeated in one fell swoop, nor can they all be lumped together. That's a bit too simple.

...an atheist Jew....? :confused:

Yeah, Sel Appa, can you please tell us about this? It's contradicting. :headbang:

You still have not answered any of my points regarding all of the other countries that have the same claims being made against them by the same people. Just how much of your day do you devote to the “Poor Chechens” or “The poor Kashmiri” or “The Poor Sudanese”?


Well gosh could it possibly be because this thread is about Palestine???



You devote a lot of time to repeating the false accusations against us, but spare not a cell of your mind to all of the Christians and Hindus that Islam seeks to destroy. All the Christians and Hindus that defend themselves, or die.

I have not uttered or repeated any false accusations.

The last few posts have been about the word "occupied"
which you object to.


You hold us to an irrational standard. You deny us the right to defend ourselves and accuse of crimes, for which the only proof is the word, of people who admit their goal is genocide. The word of people who believe that their word is worth four times your own.


No the only proof is not the word or people who admit their goal is genocide.

The proof has come from Israeli Jews
and from the UN and from any number of humanitarian organisations
and from your own admissions.

But then you seem to have trouble as I've pointed out before
with reality vs fantasy.


You say you do not wish our deaths, but you put a lot of your free time in to arguing for exactly that. What am I to think of you but the worst?


Your biggest problem is you do not think at all.
You certainly do not take up points and then argue them.
You simply spout irrational insane gobblydegook and then accuse
everyone who thinks that perhaps killing people is a bad idea of being nazis.

But I would not even wish your death,

I would not shame Judaism though by considering you to belong with them.

From the bile and hatred that you have been spewing here
against anyone and everyone, whether they be moslem, jew
or any other religious or ethnic background who does not
approve of occupation and the mistreatment of the people
being occupied.
You blame moslems for all evils
You even effectively called for the extermination
of all moslems or at best keeping them in concentration camps.
Gosh amight now what group does that sound like.


Your insults would hurt more if they were true, really they would, but they could come out of a crack jack box. If you can not be polite or right, at least be original.


In all earnestness, seek therapy.

This, I think, is the core differance between us. You believe in a unified war of Muslims against western civilization, palestine and Israel being only a tool. I believe in pragmatically settling conflicts one by one, by ensuring that people's lives will be better after than they were before. Ideology is neither permanent, nor inflexible.
Yes, Islamic nations are the most backward and cruel group of dictatorships in the world, and its not a coincidence. BUT, they will not be defeated in one fell swoop, nor can they all be lumped together. That's a bit too simple.

do you think just because most muslim nation have a dictator, then it means they agree on them???

_1: Israel had to fight for its independence?????, are you serious???, did you ever hear of the belfour pact???.how can it be fighting for independence, while sitting on tables for a free land with extra artillary against their neighbors.
_2: wreked, im sure they were, they were the wepons the russians didnt need after ww2, and i agree that the arab soldiers were not trained enaugh, while zionist forces participated in the ww2.
_3:but if you are over numbered without modern weapons its hard to win, like in iraq, americans had the best technology their, while iraq had a huge number, but they still lost the war.
_4:70%???? i doubt it, please show me some back up, talking is cheap....
even so that why arabs are asking for 2 countries living along, palestine and israel.
_5: msulims in Europe are not asking for a muslims states of banana, and trying to kick out french or germans out of their lands, they are immigrating just like africans are immigrating to france, they are immigratring for good lifes, like what happened in the USA, the american dream.... not immigrating to establish a country of their own.
_6:Arabs were spreading islam, plus these places were already conqured by either persians or romans, so the berbers rathered to be under islamic rule, then roman rule.... the arabs never conqured, is that what they teach you in your schools, the arabs spreaded out islam in arabic, and when it was spreaded arabic became more popular then the other native languages.... do you really think that the 300 million arabs in the world came from thousands of bedouins in arabian peninsula, what are 6 years old....
????

1. The moment Israel declared Independence, all of her neighbors declared war on her. Thus, she was fighting for her very survival. Israel only had 2 artillery pieces for most of the war. and they were built in 1871 for the Franco-Prussian war.
2. No, they were not wrecked weapons of WWII surplus. They were MIG-19s and 21s, T-55s and T-62s (the most advanced tank at that time in 1967). Most of the "zionist" forces did not participate in WWII. They were children then and if they fought in the Yom Kippur war they would be 50 years old, past the cut off time for obligatory service).
3. Like I said, Israel was severly lacking in any modern technology. They were fighting with modified Sherman tanks from WWII and Centurion tanks of the 50's. The only advanced weaponry they had were the French Mirages, which were badly outclassed by the Russian MiG-21s which the Arabs were equipped for, not to mention the dozens of SAM-7 sites that were the most advanced at that time in anti-aircraft technology.
4. Immigration in Israel is only 20,000 or fewer a year on average in the past 10 years. Do the math. Fewer than 1 million Russians live there, and there isn't any other place on the globe that could have supplied so many Jews, except the US, but many US Jews do not want to move to Israel. It is probably higher than 70 percent now. You don't look up any information anyway, why am I arguing with someone whose facts are based on emotions?
5. Arab assimilation in Europe is basically nil, so it won't be long until they start demanding for a state of their own in Europe. Mark my words, just follow the next few years.
6. Yes, I do think that the 300 million Arabs came from the Arabian peninsula. The Arab birthrate is among the highest in the world, and traditionally it always was very high. When your average family has 8 kids in it, of course the population can baloon in a few 'short' centuries.

and these four countries are where today???




lebanon always existed since the times of the phoneicians 3000 years ago, then into a roman state, then into the county of tripoli 800 years ago, then into the ottoman empire, then into lebanon.



ummm... wrong...
Syrians are still at war because israel is occupying the golan heights... do you think we have no cable here????



i dont call islam fighting with buddhism, animism, secularism.. and if you mean hinduism in india, let me assure you that its almost over when pakistan and india split back in the 40's
dude read some books


“Palestine” of course, as in the “region” Bridging between Africa and Eurasia. Certainly not the country, because that never existed.

There is a wonderful Lebanese Restaurant in Phoenix, the owner’s daughter Belly Dances to entertain their customers. She has a lovely smile and she is a Christian. They were forced to leave Lebanon and the bodies of half their family. “Lebanon” as a name existed. Lebanon as a “Country” was “Mandated” separate from Syria, in order to allow autonomy for those Christians, autonomy which was crushed in a bloody and genocidal invasion by your people.

What right does Syria have to the Golan Heights? What right does Syria have to Kurdish territory? What right does Syria have to rule over Assyrians? By what right do these “Syrians” conquer their neighbors? I am glad Jordan fears Syria enough to cooperate with us. They are right to. Syria can not have Golan, because Syria will not recognize Israel’s right to exist, even in name, in exchange for Golan. Egypt made this compromise once, Syria will not because Syria is more true to its genocidal motives. Golan is only held, for strategic purposes. We will force Syria to fire its missile “Over” Golan, as opposed to “From” Golan. Count your blessing that we do not answer your missile with our own.

India and Pakistan. Where were you when Bombay burned? Where were you when Hordes of men waved Knives as long as long as your arm and ran through the streets setting children on fire and beheading old women, because Hindus wanted one of the three Temples you took from them back? You built those Mosques just to spite them, you send “Settlers” across the border in to Kashmir as we speak, which is why India is purchasing Sensor Technology from us to build a fence, just like ours, to keep your “Pakistanians” out.

Never bring a knife to a gun fight. If mostly Moslems Riot, mostly Moslems will be shot.

so what your point????, just because the arab population is bigger that means they can give up their lands????
, fine, tomorow ill ask for the arab governments to attack india and conqure a piece of it, then they can leave us alone because we are a minority!!! :headbang:

No, I'm saying the Arab population is much bigger, there for has a significant advantage when it comes to supplying your country for war. Not to mention the vast oil reserves.

I'm going to a party now (no it's not a boozefest, but a party in one actually engages in socializing with other guests) so I can't answer any of your ill-researched arguments anymore. But please, try to look for sources with UNbiased information next time.

do you think just because most muslim nation have a dictator, then it means they agree on them???dude, if you read my post, you'd realize that no, I don't. My point was that each must be adressed seperately, and meticulously. generalizations, nad grand thoeries don't cut it when you want to do politics.

Yeah, Sel Appa, can you please tell us about this? It's contradicting. :headbang:
No it's not. I'm also very Jewish, and very atheist.
here's how it goes: Judaism encompasses more that religious faith. Its a culture, community, and identity that you are born into, and mostly, will remain with you forever. I value my religion intelectually, culturally, and as a social grouping, though I don't buy it spiritually. that doesn't make me less Jewish than the next peson though.
Most Israelis are secular Jews, in fact.

The Green Line, or the Armistice Line of 1949, was set by a series of Israeli-Arab agreements. It was agreed by the Israeli and Arab representatives together to be a provisional border of Israel. What are you talking about the Arab ststes rejecting it when it was offered? They drew it!


If they accepted it, why did they gather their hordes for the ’67 war? it is because this was never agreed upon as a recognized Israeli Border.

An official source.

“The so called "Green Line" has never represented an international boundary. The 1949 armistice agreements specifically refer to this fact. There was never a recognized and legitimate sovereign in the West Bank. The legal status of these areas remains that of disputed territory- to be resolved through negotiations . It is this that is required by Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, which call for the parties to start negotiations , inter alia, on "secure and recognized boundaries", and agreements reached between the parties specifically refer to the need for direct negotiations to resolve this issue.”

http://www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/Pages/ENG/questions.htm

Israel had no defined borders when it joined the UN and there was no “Palestine” behind any green line. There were Egyptians, there were Jordanians, then there were Guerillas.

Yeah, Sel Appa, can you please tell us about this? It's contradicting. :headbang:

How the heck is it contradictory.

You can be jewish by genealogy without being religious.

Being jewish refers to race as well as religion.

For many it is one and the same thing but belief in a god requires
a suspension of disbelief that not all people of any religious background
buy even if inculcated in it from the moment they first draw breath.

My thoughts on the whole Arab-Israeli situation in general:

Israel takes an incredible amount of crap from the Arab nations, the European nations, and the UN in general for the mistakes of just about everyone else. Two of the most innocent groups in the conflict are the Israelis and Palestinians themselves - Jordanian invasion sparked the Arab war that resulted in Israeli retaliations and conquest of parts of the West Bank. Cold-War era political maneuvering spurred the famous Six-Day War and ensuing Yom Kippur wars. Israel gets invaded, promptly decimates everything, then takes lands from all the idiot aggressors.

We hear so much pity for the Palestinian people, victims "at the hands of Israel". Hardly. Palestine is a victim of its own Arab neighbors and their political ambitions. Quite honestly, Israel is very, very generous to even make moves towards establishing a Palestinian state and give them most of the West Bank and Gaza. It isn't under any obligation to do anything with the territories it took from idiots in Jordan and Egypt but to keep them. So we whine that Israel isn't giving them up fast enough. Or that Israel isn't giving up enough of them. Well guess what - that is Israel's land :eek: !

1. The moment Israel declared Independence, all of her neighbors declared war on her. Thus, she was fighting for her very survival. Israel only had 2 artillery pieces for most of the war. and they were built in 1871 for the Franco-Prussian war.
2. No, they were not wrecked weapons of WWII surplus. They were MIG-19s and 21s, T-55s and T-62s (the most advanced tank at that time in 1967). Most of the "zionist" forces did not participate in WWII. They were children then and if they fought in the Yom Kippur war they would be 50 years old, past the cut off time for obligatory service).
3. Like I said, Israel was severly lacking in any modern technology. They were fighting with modified Sherman tanks from WWII and Centurion tanks of the 50's. The only advanced weaponry they had were the French Mirages, which were badly outclassed by the Russian MiG-21s which the Arabs were equipped for, not to mention the dozens of SAM-7 sites that were the most advanced at that time in anti-aircraft technology.
4. Immigration in Israel is only 20,000 or fewer a year on average in the past 10 years. Do the math. Fewer than 1 million Russians live there, and there isn't any other place on the globe that could have supplied so many Jews, except the US, but many US Jews do not want to move to Israel. It is probably higher than 70 percent now. You don't look up any information anyway, why am I arguing with someone whose facts are based on emotions?
5. Arab assimilation in Europe is basically nil, so it won't be long until they start demanding for a state of their own in Europe. Mark my words, just follow the next few years.
6. Yes, I do think that the 300 million Arabs came from the Arabian peninsula. The Arab birthrate is among the highest in the world, and traditionally it always was very high. When your average family has 8 kids in it, of course the population can baloon in a few 'short' centuries.

_1:thats not called fighting for independence, its called fighting for survival
USA fighting Britian is fighting for independence, Algerians Fighting french is called for independence....
_2:for gods sack my uncle died in 1948, by an artillary that blew up in his face instead, so did alot of soldiers, so dont you tell me that they were modern, modern yes but good ,no.
_3: did you know that israel is paying over 9 billion dollars on military expenditures???
_4: im asking you to give me facts, you still didnt, untill then i cant argue on that point, because im telling you honestly i have no fact on this issue...
_5:i dont recall hispanics claiming USA as a spanish country!!!
_6:so you are 6 years old.... pretty smart brat, any way the average family in the arab world has 4 children, by the way im a berber in ethnicity, and arab in tongue, so that makes me an arab.

No, they are Jewish. The fact still remains dispite whatever propaganda you wish to swallow that Israel is in violation of the geneva conventions in a few places, and that does not help the Israeli cause one bit.


Are familiar with the word “Zondercommando”. This is a word many of us take very seriously. Israel is outnumbered two hundred and forty to one, your relatives do not need you here falsely accusing their government of International Violations. You are jeopardizing their lives over misapplied and distorted principles.

Arab League

WWII populations:
Japan 70 million
United States 133 million

United States to Japan-1.9

Current Arab/Israeli populations:
Israel: 6.3 million
Egypt: 73 million
Syria: 19 million
Jordan: 5.4 million
Saudi Arabia: 23.4 million
Lebanon: 3.5 million

Total Arab/Israeli populations:
Israel: 6.3 million
Arab (only neighboring Israel, Saudi Arabia is bordering Israel by water)
124.3 million

Arab states to Israel- 19.7 to 1 (excluding the many other Arab states that sympathize and occationally donate military forces, such as Libya, Algeria, Morocco, and Yemen.)



Those Islamic States you are excluding are really big.

Are familiar with the word “Zondercommando”. This is a word many of us take very seriously. Israel is outnumbered two hundred and forty to one, your relatives do not need you here falsely accusing their government of International Violations. You are jeopardizing their lives over misapplied and distorted principles.THough I may disagree with CSW, blind solidarity is total crap. Israel doesn't need a bunch of yea-saying drones abroad, particularly since these very topics are hotly debated among Israelis themselves in the public discourse.

My thoughts on the whole Arab-Israeli situation in general:

Israel takes an incredible amount of crap from the Arab nations, the European nations, and the UN in general for the mistakes of just about everyone else. Two of the most innocent groups in the conflict are the Israelis and Palestinians themselves - Jordanian invasion sparked the Arab war that resulted in Israeli retaliations and conquest of parts of the West Bank. Cold-War era political maneuvering spurred the famous Six-Day War and ensuing Yom Kippur wars. Israel gets invaded, promptly decimates everything, then takes lands from all the idiot aggressors.

We hear so much pity for the Palestinian people, victims "at the hands of Israel". Hardly. Palestine is a victim of its own Arab neighbors and their political ambitions. Quite honestly, Israel is very, very generous to even make moves towards establishing a Palestinian state and give them most of the West Bank and Gaza. It isn't under any obligation to do anything with the territories it took from idiots in Jordan and Egypt but to keep them. So we whine that Israel isn't giving them up fast enough. Or that Israel isn't giving up enough of them. Well guess what - that is Israel's land :eek: !

first of all you have NO right calling arabs idiots, second, israel is doing so not out of genericity, its so it would have peace with its arabs neighbors..
plus where the F*** are you from???

My thoughts on the whole Arab-Israeli situation in general:

Israel takes an incredible amount of crap from the Arab nations, the European nations, and the UN in general for the mistakes of just about everyone else. Two of the most innocent groups in the conflict are the Israelis and Palestinians themselves - Jordanian invasion sparked the Arab war that resulted in Israeli retaliations and conquest of parts of the West Bank. Cold-War era political maneuvering spurred the famous Six-Day War and ensuing Yom Kippur wars. Israel gets invaded, promptly decimates everything, then takes lands from all the idiot aggressors.

We hear so much pity for the Palestinian people, victims "at the hands of Israel". Hardly. Palestine is a victim of its own Arab neighbors and their political ambitions. Quite honestly, Israel is very, very generous to even make moves towards establishing a Palestinian state and give them most of the West Bank and Gaza. It isn't under any obligation to do anything with the territories it took from idiots in Jordan and Egypt but to keep them. So we whine that Israel isn't giving them up fast enough. Or that Israel isn't giving up enough of them. Well guess what - that is Israel's land :eek: !

So in other words despite realizing that Palestine has been played by all sides as disposable pawns it's acceptable to just leave them to rot on their own without doing something positive to get them out of the unenviable position of being everyone's communal pawn?

No, I'm saying the Arab population is much bigger, there for has a significant advantage when it comes to supplying your country for war. Not to mention the vast oil reserves.

oh
so your just pointing out a fact.... ok... no harm in that i guess...
but the oil thing, well... our arab leaders are to stupid to use that as a weapon,

This, I think, is the core differance between us. You believe in a unified war of Muslims against western civilization, palestine and Israel being only a tool. I believe in pragmatically settling conflicts one by one, by ensuring that people's lives will be better after than they were before. Ideology is neither permanent, nor inflexible.
Yes, Islamic nations are the most backward and cruel group of dictatorships in the world, and its not a coincidence. BUT, they will not be defeated in one fell swoop, nor can they all be lumped together. That's a bit too simple.


I suggest a checkerboard strategy of interlocking “Nation-Pieces”. Israel and India are already secure. Pakistan is not, but on the opposite side is Afghanistan, now American occupied. Iran is not but on the other side is Iraq, now American Occupied. This means Iran and Pakistan are Surrounded, so is Jordan, so is Syria. We and our allies can move in from al sides, in to any country we wish. In a worst case Scenario, we can always issue an ultimatum.

“Withdraw from Israel with the Dome of the Rock on your backs” or we will Nuke Mecca.

I might add to that, “Return the Temple of Ram and those two lesser Temples that I can not remember the names of to the Hindus and Chechnya to the Russians, Evacuate Darfur, Tear Down Chele Kula and Bury those Serbs with some dignity”. That way, we are all on the same page and will have allies.

Can someone answer my question? Please?

oh
so your just pointing out a fact.... ok... no harm in that i guess...
but the oil thing, well... our arab leaders are to stupid to use that as a weapon,
More like too smart to do that. They love oil money a lot more than they love Allah.

“Withdraw from Israel with the Dome of the Rock on your backs” or we will Nuke Mecca.

I might add to that, “Return the Temple of Ram and those two lesser Temples that I can not remember the names of to the Hindus and Chechnya to the Russians, Evacuate Darfur, Tear Down Chele Kula and Bury those Serbs with some dignity”. That way, we are all on the same page and will have allies.

Yes, nuke Mecca if you can. Then you've just created a self-fulfilling prophecy by turning every Muslim in the world into a vengeful horde that will try their damned best to eradicate Israel off the face of the Earth. You think they're trying hard right now? You're just dealing with an extremist fraction out of over a billion Muslims at the moment. When you Nuke Mecca, you prove Bin Ladin right, you prove the Jihadists right, and you even prove the farce of a propaganda everyone knows as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion right.

"Never Again" my ass. Unless by "Never Again" you happen to mean "Never Again will we be the ones threatened with extinction. Next time, we'll be the ones threatening a group with it."

:rolleyes:

I suggest a checkerboard strategy of interlocking “Nation-Pieces”. Israel and India are already secure. Pakistan is not, but on the opposite side is Afghanistan, now American occupied. Iran is not but on the other side is Iraq, now American Occupied. This means Iran and Pakistan are Surrounded, so is Jordan, so is Syria. We and our allies can move in from al sides, in to any country we wish. In a worst case Scenario, we can always issue an ultimatum.

“Withdraw from Israel with the Dome of the Rock on your backs” or we will Nuke Mecca.

I might add to that, “Return the Temple of Ram and those two lesser Temples that I can not remember the names of to the Hindus and Chechnya to the Russians, Evacuate Darfur, Tear Down Chele Kula and Bury those Serbs with some dignity”. That way, we are all on the same page and will have allies.NUKE MECCA!!!!?????
Listen, Yeru. I don't know about you, but *I* am not looking forward to World War three. Why would you threaten the destruction of a holy site?
Conquoring all of the Middle East is just about the worst idea you can concieve of economically, socially, everything. The people in those countries are not ready to accept a foreign powe (see Iraq) however good your intentions are. they need to evolve and fight for democracy on their own. You CANNOT forcefully convert the entire Arab world into westernized, Jew-loving, America-well-wishing pawns. Not going to happen.
just because you have the military capability to do something, does not mean that its to your advantage to do it.

Well gosh could it possibly be because this thread is about Palestine???



I have not uttered or repeated any false accusations.

The last few posts have been about the word "occupied"
which you object to.



No the only proof is not the word or people who admit their goal is genocide.

The proof has come from Israeli Jews
and from the UN and from any number of humanitarian organisations
and from your own admissions.

But then you seem to have trouble as I've pointed out before
with reality vs fantasy.



Your biggest problem is you do not think at all.
You certainly do not take up points and then argue them.
You simply spout irrational insane gobblydegook and then accuse
everyone who thinks that perhaps killing people is a bad idea of being nazis.

But I would not even wish your death,

I would not shame Judaism though by considering you to belong with them.

From the bile and hatred that you have been spewing here
against anyone and everyone, whether they be moslem, jew
or any other religiely called for the extermination
of all moslems or at best keeping them in concentration camps.
Gosh amight now what group does that sound likous or ethnic background who does not
approve of occupation and the mistreatment of the people
being occupied.
You blame moslems for all evils
You even effective.




In all earnestness, seek therapy.


“Palestine” is just one small head of a big hydra. You continue to focus on this one head, neglecting all other aspects that put it in context. you have no good reason to do this, you simply refuse to recognize outside influences in favor of your preferred version of events. It is somehow important to you to believe that Israel is the aggressor and that all of Islam is the underdog, or you simply refuse to recognize that the rest of Islam exists, panicking of a splinter as a bolt is slowly twisted in to your brain.

So instead of arguing your baseless position, you accuse me of hate and suggest I “seek help”. This is not a debate strategy that will you any points in Princeton. Perhaps Chomsky would be impressed, but that is saying little.

I maintain, that “Occupation” is derogatory. “Palestine” is not a country and the “Palestinians” are themselves not native. Israel occupies Israel and there is no “Occupation” because no one is being “Occupied”.

Can someone answer my question? Please?
posts 458 and 460 adress your question. jeez.

The state of Israel has only existed for 50 years, due to displaced Jews. Palestinian land was "partitioned" by the UN after the holocaust in favour of the minority Jews. This was an absolute atrocity and IRONY that resulted in massive ethnic cleansing by Zionist militias.

How foul for anyone to suggest that the Israeli government in not occupying palestinian land, how foul for anyone to say it is not stolen land, how foul for anyone to not consider the countless UN resolutions against the atrocities that are still perpetuated by Israel that Israel have just ignored?

Quite like the US govt. relationship with the UN I guess!

Oops! I didn't mean to imply that the US govt. supports killing Muslims or palestinians

BTW I am Wiccan

I suggest a checkerboard strategy of interlocking “Nation-Pieces”. Israel and India are already secure. Pakistan is not, but on the opposite side is Afghanistan, now American occupied. Iran is not but on the other side is Iraq, now American Occupied. This means Iran and Pakistan are Surrounded, so is Jordan, so is Syria. We and our allies can move in from al sides, in to any country we wish. In a worst case Scenario, we can always issue an ultimatum.

“Withdraw from Israel with the Dome of the Rock on your backs” or we will Nuke Mecca.
.

maybe we will see how you are going to go nuk mecca without any oil!!!!!

just remember that the arab states combined produce over 95,150,500
bbl/per day

while Israel+USA+EU produce 10,448,080 bbl/day

while consuming 34 million per day, so lets see how you will start your planes, tanks, subs, ships, and even your power stations when you bomb mecca...

and i really doubt it that USA and the EU will ever agree on bombing mecca

Yes, nuke Mecca if you can. Then you've just created a self-fulfilling prophecy by turning every Muslim in the world into a vengeful horde that will try their damned best to eradicate Israel off the face of the Earth. You think they're trying hard right now? You're just dealing with an extremist fraction out of over a billion Muslims at the moment. When you Nuke Mecca, you prove Bin Ladin right, you prove the Jihadists right, and you even prove the farce of a pro da everyone knows as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion right.

Don't forget, the Muslims will have a lot more supporters to join them. I know I will join the Muslims, and help them.

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

“Palestine” is just one small head of a big hydra. You continue to focus on this one head, neglecting all other aspects that put it in context. you have no good reason to do this, you simply refuse to recognize outside influences in favor of your preferred version of events. It is somehow important to you to believe that Israel is the aggressor and that all of Islam is the underdog, or you simply refuse to recognize that the rest of Islam exists, panicking of a splinter as a bolt is slowly twisted in to your brain.

So instead of arguing your baseless position, you accuse me of hate and suggest I “seek help”. This is not a debate strategy that will you any points in Princeton. Perhaps Chomsky would be impressed, but that is saying little.

I maintain, that “Occupation” is derogatory. “Palestine” is not a country and the “Palestinians” are themselves not native. Israel occupies Israel and there is no “Occupation” because no one is being “Occupied”.

i totaly agree with you, and guess what the world is flat and we all live upside down, and the sky rains candy, and earth is really called LALA land.

posts 458 and 460 adress your question. jeez.

FINALYY!!! THANK YOU!

I hope this "nuke Mecca" business never gets any farther than a few right wing nutcases. I would rather not have one of our major cities flattened in retaliation.

How the heck is it contradictory.

You can be jewish by genealogy without being religious.

Being jewish refers to race as well as religion.

For many it is one and the same thing but belief in a god requires
a suspension of disbelief that not all people of any religious background
buy even if inculcated in it from the moment they first draw breath.

O, I see. Thanx.

Don't forget, the Muslims will have a lot more supporters to join them. I know I will join the Muslims, and help them.

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


i totaly agree with you, and guess what the world is flat and we all live upside down, and the sky rains candy, and earth is really called LALA land.
This is getting foolish. Please, if you have nothing to say, 1) stay away from the sniper smilis, you n00b, and 2) move on to another thread.

_5:i dont recall hispanics claiming USA as a spanish country!!!



The word is “Aztlan”. It is inspired by the wonderful way Arabs pour in to Israel, India, Thailand, Russia, Ivory Coast and Serbia claiming that back “Time immemorial” they ruled these places.

Spain, according to the Catholic Church anyway, “Ruled” the American West. Mexico however could never develop these places and when they lost Texas, attacked America and wound up selling the entire American West in exchange for a fairly small amount of money and forgiveness.

Just as there are Nomadic Arabs who wandered about “Palestine”, the Bedouin, there were similar nomads in America, Native Americans.

But “Aztlan” is not being “Fought for” on behalf of the natives who were actually here, but in the name of “Mexico”, the country from which most of its supporters originate.

Mexicans trying to “Reclaim Aztlan”, are very much like Jordanians and Syrians fighting for “Palestine”. A place they were never from and could never have developed on their own.

Don't forget, the Muslims will have a lot more supporters to join them. I know I will join the Muslims, and help them.

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

you both are damn right, now its like less then 0.000009% are extreamist jihadist, lets see the world dealing with over 1 billion jihadist that there main goal is to kill israelis, and ofcourse casualties will fall on all sides that helped israel Nuking mecca...., plus do you really think the world will stand by your side when you bomb mecca????

i told you we live in LALAland

So...how's this thread going?

Have you guys agreed on anything yet?

I'd rather not backtrack through the 400 so pages...

THough I may disagree with CSW, blind solidarity is total crap. Israel doesn't need a bunch of yea-saying drones abroad, particularly since these very topics are hotly debated among Israelis themselves in the public discourse.


I would have to agree with you, but the blanket cookie cutter denials without reasons are troublesome. Particularly when one who claims Jewish ties is repeating them. One Haber is worth a thousand suicide bombers.

I hope this "nuke Mecca" business never gets any farther than a few right wing nutcases. I would rather not have one of our major cities flattened in retaliation.

I wouldn't worry. The sane rational people in charge of Israel right now know better than to commit geopolitical suicide by threatening to nuke Mecca, much less actually doing so.

Not even the Busheviks could rationalize supporting an Israeli tac nuke strike on Mecca without being drowned by a tsunami of political backlash against them. America would have to save itself by cutting off all diplomatic ties and that billions per year support of Israel.

you both are damn right, now its like less then 0.000009% are extreamist jihadist, lets see the world dealing with over 1 billion jihadist that there main goal is to kill israelis, and ofcourse casualties will fall on all sides that helped israel Nuking mecca...., plus do you really think the world will stand by your side when you mecca????

i told you we live in LALAland

Of course not! I wouldn't! If president Bush n00kd Mecca, I'd join the resistance group of America (I'm not Muslim, btw, I'm Christian, but nuking the Muslim Holy City is still wrong.) and kick out Bush! :sniper: :sniper:

(I am also a Bush supporter btw, but not if he nukes stuff!)

The word is “Aztlan”. It is inspired by the wonderful way Arabs pour in to Israel, India, Thailand, Russia, Ivory Coast and Serbia claiming that back “Time immemorial” they ruled these places.


You know, the arabs lived in Israel 55 years ago, alongside native jews. The European jews are the ones trying to enforce two thousand year old claims here. There is a lot to debate here, but trying to make it sound like Palestinians are bringing up some arcane claim of right is just silly.

EDIT: oh, also, you are wrong about pretty much everything else in that post as well. "Aztlan" is just an expression of hispanic-American solidarity. Nobody in the mainstream has ever suggested returning the American west to Mexico. And there were Spanish speakers in all of these areas before there were Anglos.

Yes, nuke Mecca if you can. Then you've just created a self-fulfilling prophecy by turning every Muslim in the world into a vengeful horde that will try their damned best to eradicate Israel off the face of the Earth. You think they're trying hard right now? You're just dealing with an extremist fraction out of over a billion Muslims at the moment. When you Nuke Mecca, you prove Bin Ladin right, you prove the Jihadists right, and you even prove the farce of a propaganda everyone knows as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion right.

"Never Again" my ass. Unless by "Never Again" you happen to mean "Never Again will we be the ones threatened with extinction. Next time, we'll be the ones threatening a group with it."

:rolleyes:


There are the extremists and then there is their support structure. We did not beat Nazi Germany by just focusing on “Nazi Extremists”.

I would rather fight all of Islam while we have a huge technological advantage than beat around the bush pretending like “The moderates” will somehow give us peace until one of these fanatic governments built on “Mutually Assured Destruction” decide that they will be the “first” in this conflict to use the bomb.

:D The word is “Aztlan”. It is inspired by the wonderful way Arabs pour in to Israel, India, Thailand, Russia, Ivory Coast and Serbia claiming that back “Time immemorial” they ruled these places.

.

where the hell do you get this boggus... arabs trying to claim russia??
india, ivory coast??? THAILAND???

IM TELLING YOU DUDE, im an arab and i never heard about anything like that shit in my life... hehehe
claiming thailand, hehe
well claiming israel makes sense, but russia which is 100s of miles away from the nearest points, thailand which is thousnads, ivory coast????

dude get a life.... you have a phobia with arabs....

soon you will be saying they are on your skin....
arabs are not fungus man :rolleyes:

So...how's this thread going?

Have you guys agreed on anything yet?

I'd rather not backtrack through the 400 so pages...hahaaa, good one. In a word, no.

Yerushalayim comtinues expounding his/her plans for middle eastern military domination and ultra-right neo-con generalizations, CSW repeats his/her Geneva convention diatribe, The Arab Legue gets offended and uses too many numbers, and a variety of other fools weigh in with their perposterous and biased perspectives.

I, of course, remain calm, balanced, and judicously wise in every possible respect. :)

There are the extremists and then there is their support structure. We did not beat Nazi Germany by just focusing on “Nazi Extremists”.

I would rather fight all of Islam while we have a huge technological advantage than beat around the bush pretending like “The moderates” will somehow give us peace until one of these fanatic governments built on “Mutually Assured Destruction” decide that they will be the “first” in this conflict to use the bomb.

yeah sure, and kill all the arabs and muslims living there too...

seriuosly how old are you :rolleyes:

hahaaa, good one. In a word, no.

Yerushalayim comtinues expounding his/her plans for middle eastern military domination and ultra-right neo-con generalizations, CSW repeats his/her Geneva convention diatribe, The Arab Legue gets offended and uses too many numbers, and a variety of other fools weigh in with their perposterous and biased perspectives.

I, of course, remain calm, balanced, and judicously wise in every possible respect. :)

Meh...well i'm on the Anti-Palestine side myself, but i gave up on these threads long ago. I learnt it's much easier to discuss politics IRL then it is over the internet....

At least Israel is famous....i'm sure that's a good thing in some way isn't it? ;)

i cant see how any country, besides big ones taking on the small ones, can wage a full scale war in this day and age.
the inteligence tecnology is so advanced today that if you move a tank in syria alarmas go off in 20 places.
dont forget that a major part of the conflict was acommpanied by the cold war and served as a testing ground for us and soviet weapons. with the soviets gone and communications so advanced i cant see a way war will come(unless of course it is the israelis or the americans who will provide the armes. that would be a surprise :headbang: ).
It is true that much of the fight was a proxy war, but not all of it. Quite a bit is sheer hatred by Arabs. They don't care about diplomatic niceties, as we have seen repeatedly. Even if we can prevent a war between nation-states, non state actors will get involved, probably with the support of these states.
I'm waiting, however, to see about Jordan. For an Arab country, Jordan has quite good relations with Israel: they recognize eachother, allow relatively free trade, and even have a mutual interest in the Palestinian conflict, even if they have different goals in mind. Things have deteriorated a bit since King Hussein died, though, and that's why I wonder if Jordan may end up being a hostile actor towards Israel.

There are the extremists and then there is their support structure. We did not beat Nazi Germany by just focusing on “Nazi Extremists”.

I would rather fight all of Islam while we have a huge technological advantage than beat around the bush pretending like “The moderates” will somehow give us peace until one of these fanatic governments built on “Mutually Assured Destruction” decide that they will be the “first” in this conflict to use the bomb.

I couldn't agree more while we're at it though we should kill the Jews because of the Jewish extremists and the Christians because of the Christian extremists...

You are insane

I think that war with the entirety of the Arab world is a great idea. I mean, look how well it's going in Iraq. Multiplying that by 20 would be no big deal.

hahaaa, good one. In a word, no.

Yerushalayim comtinues expounding his/her plans for middle eastern military domination and ultra-right neo-con generalizations, CSW repeats his/her Geneva convention diatribe, The Arab Legue gets offended and uses too many numbers, and a variety of other fools weigh in with their perposterous and biased perspectives.

I, of course, remain calm, balanced, and judicously wise in every possible respect. :)

hehehe lmao

NUKE MECCA!!!!?????
Listen, Yeru. I don't know about you, but *I* am not looking forward to World War three. Why would you threaten the destruction of a holy site?
Conquoring all of the Middle East is just about the worst idea you can concieve of economically, socially, everything. The people in those countries are not ready to accept a foreign powe (see Iraq) however good your intentions are. they need to evolve and fight for democracy on their own. You CANNOT forcefully convert the entire Arab world into westernized, Jew-loving, America-well-wishing pawns. Not going to happen.
just because you have the military capability to do something, does not mean that its to your advantage to do it.


“They” make a regular habit of taking over other people’s holy sites. Why should I care if Mecca and Medina both wind up glowing green glass? We were in Mecca before they were anyway. After Badr, that is the first place Islam made “Judenfrie”.

I think America should have gone in to The Second World War a lot sooner. America listened to all of the wrong people, the Fords, the Sangers. Mindless sheep bleating for Peace and letting others sort out their own destinies.

We will never have peace with Islam, because fourteen hundred years ago they declared war against us all and state quite clearly that “no future prophets” will exist, meaning no Moslem can ever rescind Mohammed’s Jihad. Islam may become unfashionable when they get tired of living like Twisted Mockeries of the Amish and decide that progress has a place, but I am not prepared to wait for them to discover “The Age of Reason”. Their ideology has to be broken now.

If they think what they have now is “Occupation”, let them see what it is like to be truly occupied. Build walls throughout the middle east and bomb anything that threatens us in to oblivion. Let them fight with sticks and stones.