NationStates Jolt Archive

Practically, you can just walk inside them, that works even better if you have thesame kind of shield yourself. Imagine a kamikaze droid packed with explosives that has shields and then walks through your shield.

It would have to be a pretty damn big droid. Theatre shields were either fixed buildings (large) or carried on the equivalent of a diplodocus. They weren't small by any measure. And if that was the case, what's to stop me from spotting the droid coming in from miles off and sending in ground troops to finish it off? And if you wanted to give it guns and stuff, that would be even stupider. Why build a mobile fortress with a theatre defense shield only to have it walk into another fortress THEN blow up?

Besides, I think bringing two theatre defense shields into contact with one another when their not calibrated to harmonize might produce some lethal effects. *shrug*

We have never seen the UFP building something like the DS so we don't know what they can and cannot make.

Major appeal to ignorance fallacy.

By your logic, I can say "The Empire can destroy galaxies. You can't disprove it, even though I have no evidence for this assertion."

Or: "The Empire can build 1E38 Death Star IIs in an hour. There is no evidence against it, so we cannot assume it isn't true."

Even if the Federation has ground troops, all instances that we have seen for them to be used in, they are strangely absent. The Siege of AR-558 is obviously one of the greatest episodes to display this, but so was Nor the Battle to the Strong. In both cases, ground combat is carried out by Starfleet Security forces, not dedicated ground forces.

Both episodes show a complete lack of armor (as in body armor) or support weapons. In Nor the Battle to the Strong, the Federation is getting shelled by mortars, but have no such weapons of thier own to return fire with. Further, thier dedicated air support is so weak, that they actually have to give it covering fire. The Klingons are considered the most feared combatants in the Alpha Quadrant, yet thier preferred tactics seems to be charging into close-combat with archaic swords.

Even against a modern foe this tactic would prove suicidal. In The Siege of AR-558 we see even the Dominion favors the charging into close combat approach, and once again, an even semi-incompetent modern force would have been able to stop that. Not to mention that the Federations weapons are almost all some of the worst designs to carry into combat seen on screen. The one weapon which stands out as possibly combat-capable are the rifles seen in First Contact.

Even if the Federation has ground troops, all instances that we have seen for them to be used in, they are strangely absent. The Siege of AR-558 is obviously one of the greatest episodes to display this, but so was Nor the Battle to the Strong. In both cases, ground combat is carried out by Starfleet Security forces, not dedicated ground forces.
I believe the line is that the Feds once had marines, but were phased out in favor of pistol-wielding guys in pajamas.

Both episodes show a complete lack of armor (as in body armor)
Or armor, as in vehicles, for that matter... There are some instances of body armor seen in Trek, though, even in the later days. Instances are several times in the OT movies, and once (questionably) of flak armor in TNG (I think it was TNG). Still, it doesn't come as standard kit, so isn't important to the discussion.

or support weapons.
Or even a squad automatic weapon, for crissakes... imagine a couple SAWs (or better yet, crew-fed machineguns) positioned above that chokepoint in Siege..

Correct, another reason why the Feds don't beam enemies into space. [the theatre shields didn't block battle droids in TPM, so I doubt they are really that usefull.]

And the Scimitar's shields didn't block the Enterprise in Nemesis. Probably some Dune-style low velocity limit in effect.

We have never seen the UFP building something like the DS so we don't know what they can and cannot make.

Nonsense. We have never seen them build or deploy anything that would suggest they have anything resembling the resources to build a DS or anything like it. Since they have never attempted any construction project on that scale, they would not have the experience to do it. That's like building a rowing boat and then trying to build a Nimitz class carrier the day after.

And the Scimitar's shields didn't block the Enterprise in Nemesis. Probably some Dune-style low velocity limit in effect.And a few minutes before that the Enterprise's shields block a Romulan Warbird that spins out of control. Difference in shield design perhaps?


Nonsense. We have never seen them build or deploy anything that would suggest they have anything resembling the resources to build a DS or anything like it. Since they have never attempted any construction project on that scale, they would not have the experience to do it. That's like building a rowing boat and then trying to build a Nimitz class carrier the day after.Does this (http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GStbGenral2.jpg) count?


Central Facehuggeria]Major appeal to ignorance fallacy.

By your logic, I can say "The Empire can destroy galaxies. You can't disprove it, even though I have no evidence for this assertion."

Or: "The Empire can build 1E38 Death Star IIs in an hour. There is no evidence against it, so we cannot assume it isn't true."Off course within reasonable limits (I should have added that).
BTW: Your name comes from Alien?

It would have to be a pretty damn big droid. Theatre shields were either fixed buildings (large) or carried on the equivalent of a diplodocus. They weren't small by any measure. And if that was the case, what's to stop me from spotting the droid coming in from miles off and sending in ground troops to finish it off? And if you wanted to give it guns and stuff, that would be even stupider. Why build a mobile fortress with a theatre defense shield only to have it walk into another fortress THEN blow up?Building a small fortess to blow up a bigger enemy fortress seems acceptable to me.

Besides, I think bringing two theatre defense shields into contact with one another when their not calibrated to harmonize might produce some lethal effects. *shrug*Then there would be no need for explosives anyway. :p

If I remember right, the Enterprise E took some good hits while beaming the Defiant survivors aboard... but I'm going by memory here.I rewatched the scene, they took no hits at all.

They still need to lower the sheilds. The fighter compliment aboard the ISD will then have open shots the the Enterprise.

If the ISD doesn't flat out pulverize the E-E sheilds first.

Or doesn't jam the sensors and transporter.They only need to lower one of the shiels temporarily. And don't say that those fighters are strong enough to take on the Ent E alone.

Is a ISD capable of blocking the E-E sensors and transporters? We don't know. Besides, ST sensors are better than SW sensors. The Rebels didn't detect an Imperial Fleet hiding behind a planet in ROTJ, where the E-E was counting individual atoms in FC. Doubt the Empire can block much of that.

Need to see the episode before I can talk about that.I need to see it too :(

Actually, until we see them produce anything close to a Death Star, we can assume they can't do it. Even in the midst of their two biggest wars (the Cardassian War and the Dominion War), they should no inclination of doing anything like that.If I recall correctly, the most parts of those wars were fleet battles where there would be no need to build something like a DS. They would be building ships and lots of ships.

And? Can't make them too powerful or it becomes a waste. How many do you think one Sovereign would be able to launch? They have to get past TIE Fighters and anti-fighter guns. And, of course, the shields.Then they can make lots of small ones, one would be bound to get through then. I don't know how many one Sovereign could hold, that depends on size etc.
To get past the TIE Fighters and anti fighter guns they'd get shields of their own.

And a few minutes before that the Enterprise's shields block a Romulan Warbird that spins out of control. Difference in shield design perhaps?

A small part of it IIRC, and it's shields are entirely depleted by that impact.

Does this (http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GStbGenral2.jpg) count?

No. That's TINY compared to a Death Star, and roughly on the same scale as, say, the Executor.

Is a ISD capable of blocking the E-E sensors and transporters? We don't know.

Appeal to ignorance. It has shields, so presumably yes, since ST canon says feddy transporters are blocked by shields. Transporters can also be stopped by ECM, thick material [like, um, armour] and even some naturally occuring weather conditions and minerals. Your plan is horribly unlikely to succeed against a massive sheilded vessel shrouded in heavy armour and surrounded by heavy ECM.

Besides, ST sensors are better than SW sensors. The Rebels didn't detect an Imperial Fleet hiding behind a planet in ROTJ, where the E-E was counting individual atoms in FC.

And yet Trek sensors can't pick up a ship sitting over the magnetic North pole of a planet. And how is counting atoms going to help when you're being vapourised by an enemy with hugely superior weapons and fleet strength?

A small part of it IIRC, and it's shields are entirely depleted by that impact.I'll watch the scene again, IIRC it was about the size of the Ent-E's saucersection.



No. That's TINY compared to a Death Star, and roughly on the same scale as, say, the Executor.That's probably the largest the UFB has build.

Appeal to ignorance. It has shields, so presumably yes, since ST canon says feddy transporters are blocked by shields. Transporters can also be stopped by ECM, thick material [like, um, armour] and even some naturally occuring weather conditions and minerals. Your plan is horribly unlikely to succeed against a massive sheilded vessel shrouded in heavy armour and surrounded by heavy ECM.I was more referring to the sensors, but yes, transporters are blocked by almost everything.


And yet Trek sensors can't pick up a ship sitting over the magnetic North pole of a planet. And how is counting atoms going to help when you're being vapourised by an enemy with hugely superior weapons and fleet strength?The first is a known point in ST so it won't surprise them. Second, the Enterprise will detect the SSD long before the SSD detects the Enterprise, seems like an advantage to me.

The first is a known point in ST so it won't surprise them.

Well, it would since they can't see it.

Second, the Enterprise will detect the SSD long before the SSD detects the Enterprise, seems like an advantage to me.

Why? Having sensors that can see smaller doesn't necessarily let you see further; if I have a low-tech pair of binoculars and you have a scanning electron microscope, it's foolish to assume you can see further just because you can see tiny things and I can't. Also, using Rebel techology as an example of Imperial technology is like me using Maquis shuttles as an example of Federation capital ships.

And how is it an advantage to know you're about to be destroyed by a massive, heavily armoured ship you can't touch?

Well, it would since they can't see it.Well, suppose they're looking for a ship and there are no ships within sensorrange and the only place where the sensors are blocked is above the pole of a planet. Hmm, where would the ship be?


Why? Having sensors that can see smaller doesn't necessarily let you see further; if I have a low-tech pair of binoculars and you have a scanning electron microscope, it's foolish to assume you can see further just because you can see tiny things and I can't. Also, using Rebel techology as an example of Imperial technology is like me using Maquis shuttles as an example of Federation capital ships.

And how is it an advantage to know you're about to be destroyed by a massive, heavily armoured ship you can't touch?Imperial technology isn't a thousand times better than the tech of the rebels. State of the art vs less state of the art. Federation sensors are superior (in one episode they used a tricorder aboard a shuttle and determined that there was a humanoid life sign on the planet below them.)

We're debating that ;)

Well, suppose they're looking for a ship and there are no ships within sensorrange and the only place where the sensors are blocked is above the pole of a planet. Hmm, where would the ship be?

Cloaked? You realise SW vessels can be cloaked, right?

Imperial technology isn't a thousand times better than the tech of the rebels.

Did I say it was? The point is it's better.

State of the art vs less state of the art. Federation sensors are superior (in one episode they used a tricorder aboard a shuttle and determined that there was a humanoid life sign on the planet below them.)

Again, how does such a parlour trick mean they can detect a warship in deep space from a greater distance than an imperial ship can, and how does that offer them any advantage when they couldn't engage that ship and their best bet would be to run away?

And further, Imperial technology includes anti-cloaking sensors, full ECCM and ECM so powerful it distorts space. Claiming ST's technology superior because it has been observed to do something totally irrelevant to combat performance or scanning range and concluding that because of this unrelated incident it much be superior across the board is a Sweeping Generalisation fallacy.

Don't forget that hyperspace is faster so running away would be pointless as they'd be quickly caught.

Cloaked? You realise SW vessels can be cloaked, right?And ST can detect cloaked vessels, depending on how good the cloak is. Besides, was there ever a SW ship cloaking on screen?

Did I say it was? The point is it's better.Better, yes. That much better, I doubt it.

Again, how does such a parlour trick mean they can detect a warship in deep space from a greater distance than an imperial ship can, and how does that offer them any advantage when they couldn't engage that ship and their best bet would be to run away?Let's look at FC. The E-E completed its first sensor sweep of the Neutral Zone. The found an average 80 atoms per m^3 (or something alike). I don't know how far they scanned but presumably it would nt stop at 1 meter from the hull. Let's say the scanned one system, equally in size to that of the Sun ant that the E-E was in the center. That means that they could scan atoms at 2 billion kilometers away. Now, you're suggesting they can't detect a 1600 meter long vessel that's a light year away?

And we're still debating about which ship is the strongest, so don't say their best bet is to run away.

And further, Imperial technology includes anti-cloaking sensors, full ECCM and ECM so powerful it distorts space. Claiming ST's technology superior because it has been observed to do something totally irrelevant to combat performance or scanning range and concluding that because of this unrelated incident it much be superior across the board is a Sweeping Generalisation fallacy.A tricorder detecting and determining a humanoid life sign on a planet is not proof of a good scanning range? For the superior part, see above.

Combat performance and good sensors are not related? It would be nice if you could target a weak point detect by your sensors.

And ST can detect cloaked vessels, depending on how good the cloak is. Besides, was there ever a SW ship cloaking on screen?


Does it matter? The ICS indicates Darth Maul's ships could cloak, and the line in ESB ['Disappeared? But they can't have. No ship that small has a cloaking device.'] clearly indicates SW ships are capable of cloaking.

And ST can't routinely detect and monitor cloaked vessels; Romulan ships were effectively cloaked throughout TNG and hardly ever located before they appeared dramatically.

That means that they could scan atoms at 2 billion kilometers away. Now, you're suggesting they can't detect a 1600 meter long vessel that's a light year away?


Leap in logic. How do we know those instruments can even detect objects above the atomic level? And you don't know how far they scanned, so it must be two billion kilometers? How does that work?

And we're still debating about which ship is the strongest, so don't say their best bet is to run away.


It is. Your weapons, shields and engines are all inferior, a Feddy ship is doomed in a stand-up fight.

A tricorder detecting and determining a humanoid life sign on a planet is not proof of a good scanning range? For the superior part, see above.


No, it's a useless Red Herring.

Combat performance and good sensors are not related? It would be nice if you could target a weak point detect by your sensors.

How does finding the enemy at long range allow you to find a 'weak point?' Again, you're assuming if your sensors can do something well, they can do everything. Sweeping generalisation.

Does it matter? The ICS indicates Darth Maul's ships could cloak, and the line in ESB ['Disappeared? But they can't have. No ship that small has a cloaking device.'] clearly indicates SW ships are capable of cloaking.Only the larger ships, where as in ST anything from shuttles to an entire planet can be cloaked.

And ST can't routinely detect and monitor cloaked vessels; Romulan ships were effectively cloaked throughout TNG and hardly ever located before they appeared dramatically.They used a tachyon grid to detect the Romulan ships, only the Scimitar was truly undetectable.



Leap in logic. How do we know those instruments can even detect objects above the atomic level? And you don't know how far they scanned, so it must be two billion kilometers? How does that work?Because they also scanned a comet during the same sweep. Regarding the size, Riker just says they finished their first sensor sweep of the Neutral Zone, judging by that I'd say they scanned an entire region of space. I rounded it down considerably, it could be 20 light years for all we know.


It is. Your weapons, shields and engines are all inferior, a Feddy ship is doomed in a stand-up fight.Give me good figures preferably from the movies, than I'll give the stats for ST as seen on screen (ST TM are not good).

How does finding the enemy at long range allow you to find a 'weak point?' Again, you're assuming if your sensors can do something well, they can do everything. Sweeping generalisation.Let's use Hubble for a comparisation. It can photograph stars at light years away, now turn it towards Earth, then you can see all kinds of details. Now back to ST: The closer they get, the more details become visible.
Or do SW sensors just keep showing thesame image wheter scanned from 1000 km away or 1 km?






edit: The strength of a photon torpedo is 100-150 megatons, as calculated here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWrise.html and stated to be 500 megatons for a mark VI in Voyager (episode: Scorpion)

"Why does everyone focus on that one A-Wing? Didn't anyone else see that X-Wing that was within spitting distance of it? You know, the one that was cooked by the ISD's anti-fighter canons? That was the explosion that sent to A-Wing spinning out of control. Not to mention the numerous Rebel fighters we see getting blasted throughtout the whole damn battle."

Um, I never said anything about an A-wing...

"Based on what?"

Based on all of the canon tech info re: the Sovereign-class shields...

"If, if, if, if. Get past the shields, get past the armor, get past the sensor jamming, beam torpedos inside andother ship, something we've never seen beofre. Do this all before getting wiped out. "

In the Voyager episode Dark Frontier, they destroy a Borg ship by transporting a torpedo aboard and detonating it.

"If if if if. there is nothing there that resembles a coherent argument. It is all ust wishful thinking."

Okay, with the minor rebuttals out of the way... you guys are *crazy.* I mean, I'm enthusiastic about Star Wars and Star Trek... but the tone of your reply seemed less like I tried to make a reasonable case for the outcome of an *imaginary* space battle, and more like I sodomized your mother with a fire-poker. It's really not that big a deal. But 'if' it was really that important, then you could still examine both sides equally (not knowing the beamed-aboard torpedo had been done before suggests otherwise), and respond to a reasonably-toned post in kind.

Sheesh. Thanks, though-- sometimes I worry that I'm some kind of crazy obsessed sci-fi fanatic. My fears stand dispelled.

Does this (http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GStbGenral2.jpg) count?

Nope. Its way smaller than a DS and has nothing near the weaponry. Its essentially an interstellar rest stop.


Off course within reasonable limits (I should have added that).

Whats reasonable?


They only need to lower one of the shiels temporarily. And don't say that those fighters are strong enough to take on the Ent E alone.

Alone? No. But they could wreak enough havoc to make transporting dangerous if not impossible.

Is a ISD capable of blocking the E-E sensors and transporters? We don't know.

At Endor, a single ISD from behind the planet was jamming the entire Rebel Fleet's sensors.

Besides, ST sensors are better than SW sensors.

Based on?

The Rebels didn't detect an Imperial Fleet hiding behind a planet in ROTJ,

Because the Imps knew they were coming and jammed them.

where the E-E was counting individual atoms in FC.

And? The microscope/telescope point applies here.

Doubt the Empire can block much of that.

Why would they care?

If I recall correctly, the most parts of those wars were fleet battles where there would be no need to build something like a DS. They would be building ships and lots of ships.

You don't think parking a DS outside Cardassia would have ended the fighting a lot quicker? Instead, the Feds prefered sending wave after wave of ships into a meat grinder?

Then they can make lots of small ones, one would be bound to get through then.

Even if I did go along with that prayer, so what? One? Big freakin deal.

I don't know how many one Sovereign could hold, that depends on size etc.

It can't be that many. And there must be something very prohibitive about using the drones, since we never see them used on a large scale.

To get past the TIE Fighters and anti fighter guns they'd get shields of their own.

Ya, Rebel fighters also had shields. Drones on suicide runs also make easier targets than fighters banking and dodging in an attempt to stay alive.

Nope. Its way smaller than a DS and has nothing near the weaponry. Its essentially an interstellar rest stop. It's not designed to destroy planets unlike the DS.


Whats reasonable?In any case not 1E38 DS in an hour.

Alone? No. But they could wreak enough havoc to make transporting dangerous if not impossible.They don't even have shields, a few shuttles can deal with them.


At Endor, a single ISD from behind the planet was jamming the entire Rebel Fleet's sensors.Crap sensors they have then


Based on?What I said in previous posts.


And? The microscope/telescope point applies here.I already explained that.

Why would they care?I don't know, maybe if they wanted to try.


You don't think parking a DS outside Cardassia would have ended the fighting a lot quicker? Instead, the Feds prefered sending wave after wave of ships into a meat grinder?Yes, one DS would really help :rolleyes:


Even if I did go along with that prayer, so what? One? Big freakin deal.Remember Nagasaki? That was one bomb too, now imagine it's a M/AM bomb of thesame size (in kg's, not in explosive power).


It can't be that many. And there must be something very prohibitive about using the drones, since we never see them used on a large scale.Did we see drones in ST?

Ya, Rebel fighters also had shields. Drones on suicide runs also make easier targets than fighters banking and dodging in an attempt to stay alive.You can't shoot them all at once if there are enough.

It's not designed to destroy planets unlike the DS.

Then it should have never been brought up.


In any case not 1E38 DS in an hour.

Yes, that is as unrealistic as the Feds building a single DSI in 6 months.

They don't even have shields, a few shuttles can deal with them.

Blastboats have shields. TIE Defenders have shields. So do the Avengers. Not to mention that a Star Destroyer carries 72 TIE Fighters. Versus what? Half a dozen runabouts? Those aren't even dedicated fighters.


Crap sensors they have then

Unlike Fed sensors that get blocked by cloudy days. Again, it was active jamming by a fully dedicated ISD.


What I said in previous posts.

Doesn't refute it.


I already explained that.

Not all that well

I don't know, maybe if they wanted to try.

Why? Its a fully dedicated warship and its shooting at them. How much exploring do you need to do to figure that out?


Yes, one DS would really help :rolleyes:

Hell ya, it would. Wipe out the enemy's entire government and infastructure. That goes a long way towards winning a war.


Remember Nagasaki?

Ya, its a great example of a superweapon ending a war.

That was one bomb too, now imagine it's a M/AM bomb of thesame size (in kg's, not in explosive power).

And? Is that still getting through the shields before the drone gets obliterated?




Did we see drones in ST?

Dunno. Haven't seen every episode and I couldn't sit through a few of the movies. It was brought up, so I'm guessing they've been used in one or two episodes. Problem is, I've seen most of the episodes with the Dominion War and the Borg.

These would have been great opportunites to use these suicide bomber drones, but they remained unused.

That means that they are either too costly or inefficient to use or that you simply made it up as some desperate attempt to find a weakness.

If its the latter, the whole second half of the argument is pointless and I accept your concession that the ISD is superior to the Sovereign.

You can't shoot them all at once if there are enough.

What is enough? And how many can a Sovereign carry?

Then it should have never been brought up.I searched for the largest UFB construct and found this.

Yes, that is as unrealistic as the Feds building a single DSI in 6 months.They don't build those things


Blastboats have shields. TIE Defenders have shields. So do the Avengers. Not to mention that a Star Destroyer carries 72 TIE Fighters. Versus what? Half a dozen runabouts? Those aren't even dedicated fighters.72 unshielded TIE Fighters versus 6 shielded Runabouts, Runabouts win. The other ships don't matter because you just dragged them in.


Unlike Fed sensors that get blocked by cloudy days. Again, it was active jamming by a fully dedicated ISD. And Fed sensors that scan for millions of kilometres when in 'normal' space. Now you have a fully dedicated ISD needed to jam sensors, while all ST vessels can do it.


Doesn't refute it....


Not all that wellThen I'll explain again, if you mention the parts you don't get.


Hell ya, it would. Wipe out the enemy's entire government and infastructure. That goes a long way towards winning a war.And doing that while there's an enemy fleet around you. Yes, that really works, they'd be destroyed when they only fired on the planet.


Ya, its a great example of a superweapon ending a war.The point was: one could be enough.

And? Is that still getting through the shields before the drone gets obliterated?If one is enough to destroy the enemy army/base/whatever and you'll fire dozens, one is bound to get through and succeeding in its mission. Get the point?


Dunno. Haven't seen every episode and I couldn't sit through a few of the movies. It was brought up, so I'm guessing they've been used in one or two episodes. Problem is, I've seen most of the episodes with the Dominion War and the Borg.

These would have been great opportunites to use these suicide bomber drones, but they remained unused.

That means that they are either too costly or inefficient to use or that you simply made it up as some desperate attempt to find a weakness.

If its the latter, the whole second half of the argument is pointless and I accept your concession that the ISD is superior to the Sovereign.



What is enough? And how many can a Sovereign carry?I made them up to point a weakness in SW.

Just because something doesn't exist in ST and I made it up to point ou t a weakness forces me to accept that an ISD is stronger than the Sovereign, really good way to win debates.


I still wait for any on screen figures regarding the strength of an ISD/SSD, than I'll give the canon stats of ST to debate about that.

The construction of the Death Star was kept secret by doing the accounting in the name of a normal-sized shipping company.

All those resources, in the name of a shipping company.

That's less than 25 percent of Imperial capacity, wouldn't you agree?

/The standard TIE/In has no shielding/

Actually, the TIEs DO have shielding, it's a common misconception (through the X-Wing games, novels, etc, all from the point of view of REBEL pilots) that the Imperial Pilots are basically thrown out there to die. This doesn't make any sense, even for the Empire, as those pilots are expensive, those craft are expensive, etc. Also, through the movies you can see where shields come up (I believe at the end of ANH when the TIE crashes into Darth's TIE you can see shields pop up) *snip*

-Tomás

Wrong. A standard tie fighter DOES NOT HAVE ANY SHIELDS. Darth Vader in A New Hope was not flying a standard tie fighter. He was flying a prototype of the Tie Fighter Advanced which does have shielding. Also the Tie Fighters are cheap and since the Empire uses clones for alot of things, pilots are not expensive.

Wrong. A standard tie fighter DOES NOT HAVE ANY SHIELDS. Darth Vader in A New Hope was not flying a standard tie fighter. He was flying a prototype of the Tie Fighter Advanced which does have shielding. Also the Tie Fighters are cheap and since the Empire uses clones for alot of things, pilots are not expensive.oh, and since SW books are also cannon,
Gunboats (Imperial Suttles remodified for combat) do exsist. and the Standard Imperial Shuttles are also armed as well as sheilded. (X-Wing Series: Rouge Squadron)
and depending on the time that this battle takes place, you have the new Tie Advanced that not only has sheilding but Torpedeos as well. (Same series of books)

Only the larger ships, where as in ST anything from shuttles to an entire planet can be cloaked.

Right. That Palpatine's shuttle had a cloaking device is obviously unimportant.

They used a tachyon grid to detect the Romulan ships, only the Scimitar was truly undetectable.

The Romulans could and did evade the tachyon grid. Further, provide proof that the tachyon grid would be able to detect a cloaked ISD. And then, provide proof that the SCS will have access to the tachyon grid when it fights the ISD.

Give me good figures preferably from the movies, than I'll give the stats for ST as seen on screen (ST TM are not good).

The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.

Base Delta Zero operations can and sometimes do glass a planet down to a meter. That requires gigaton range firepower.

The Dadonna quote gives us amazingly high numbers for SW weaponry, in the peta-exa ton range.

And of course we have the ICS. With its 200 gigaton turbolasers.

There are also the hoth asteroid calcs, IIRC.

I searched for the largest UFB construct and found this.

So? You still should have realized it has no place being compared to a Death Star.

They don't build those things

Then that puts them at a severe disadvantage, doesn't it? They simply can't match the industrial and firepower capabilites of the Empire.


72 unshielded TIE Fighters versus 6 shielded Runabouts, Runabouts win.

12 to 1 advantage of dedicated combat ships against a ferry with questionable shield strength and minimal armorments.

The other ships don't matter because you just dragged them in.

Canon literature. They count. They are a hell of a lot more legitimate than some stupid drone you pulled out of your ass.


And Fed sensors that scan for millions of kilometres when in 'normal' space.

What were they scanning? The whole area or were they looking for certain anomolies? And why does that apply to deep space scanning a shielded vessel?

Now you have a fully dedicated ISD needed to jam sensors, while all ST vessels can do it.

When did we see that? Why don't they do it whenever they go into combat?


...

Smartes thing you've written so far.


Then I'll explain again, if you mention the parts you don't get.

ITs not that I didn't understand, its that you're just plain wrong.


And doing that while there's an enemy fleet around you. Yes, that really works, they'd be destroyed when they only fired on the planet.

A completed Death Star? That is specifically armed to defend against capitol ships? Not to mention its full compliment of TIE fighters?


The point was: one could be enough.

No, it wouldn't be

If one is enough to destroy the enemy army/base/whatever and you'll fire dozens, one is bound to get through and succeeding in its mission. Get the point?

Prove it has the power. Pretty tough since you just invented it. Seriously, drop this idea.


I made them up to point a weakness in SW.

So, you had to invent a weakness in a StarDestroyer.

Just because something doesn't exist in ST and I made it up to point ou t a weakness forces me to accept that an ISD is stronger than the Sovereign, really good way to win debates.

Just because you can't actually find any ST tech to combat a StarDestroyer and had to fall back on some half assed deus ex machina, ya you are admitting defeat.


I still wait for any on screen figures regarding the strength of an ISD/SSD, than I'll give the canon stats of ST to debate about that.

The whole damned thread has the numbers and sources. Read it and learn what you're talking about before continuing this argument.

Right. That Palpatine's shuttle had a cloaking device is obviously unimportant.I didn't know that, but no SW ship is actually seen cloaking in the movies.
The first Star Wars reference to cloaking devices is heard in The Empire Strikes Back when Captain Needa states that no ship as small as the Millennium Falcon can be equipped with a cloaking device—however, the Expanded Universe has appeared to contradict this in places, mentioning that Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious's shuttle had a cloaking device, as did the personal spaceship of his early apprentice, Darth Maul.So we have a contradiction (or Palpatine's shuttle is a big vessel but than it wouldn't be shuttle anymore).

from: http://www.answers.com/topic/cloaking-device

The Romulans could and did evade the tachyon grid. Further, provide proof that the tachyon grid would be able to detect a cloaked ISD. And then, provide proof that the SCS will have access to the tachyon grid when it fights the ISD.The tachyon gris was used to detect Romulan vessels entering Klingon space, in battle it wouldn't be needed because: If the ISD can fire when cloaked the Feds can aim for the origin of the weaponsfire and if the ISD can't fire when cloaked the Feds can use reconnaisance by fire to locate it. (Do ISD's have shields when cloaked?)


Base Delta Zero operations can and sometimes do glass a planet down to a meter. That requires gigaton range firepower.Usefull data. Is there an specific number of ships and time for Base Delta Zero Operations or depends that on other factors? (I remember reading that one ISD could destroy a planet in a day(?), but another time three were needed and then it took 3 hours.)DITL gave the Sovereign a shield power of 4,590,000 TeraJoules, that would be enough to block the weapons of the ISD (although the number given is not canon, I assume the writer made up something sensible rather than an impossibly high figure.)

The Dadonna quote gives us amazingly high numbers for SW weaponry, in the peta-exa ton range.Very high, especially when the others sources give numbers in the gigaton range. (Unless you refer to the DS)

And of course we have the ICS. With its 200 gigaton turbolasers.

There are also the hoth asteroid calcs, IIRC.200 gigaton seeems in line with the Base Delta Zero. Are the Hoth asteroid calcs on Stardestroyer.net? (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Impact-examples.html ?)

Originally Posted by Slave ship, page 238
The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.Another gigaton range, I need to find some canon shield strengths for the Sovereign, but even if I make them 4,590,000 Gigajoules they're still strong enough to withstand it.


Then that puts them at a severe disadvantage, doesn't it? Yes, they should be building DS by the dozens because they are needed.


12 to 1 advantage of dedicated combat ships against a ferry with questionable shield strength and minimal armorments.[quote]Ferry that have shields versus combat ships without shields, just fire the phaser and rip the TIE fighters 'wings' of. Fire one torpedo on them and they are destroyed, yes TI's really last long.


[quont]Canon literature. They count. They are a hell of a lot more legitimate than some stupid drone you pulled out of your ass.The I drag in the Aeon timeshuttle, just because it is canon.


What were they scanning? The whole area or were they looking for certain anomolies? And why does that apply to deep space scanning a shielded vessel?They were scanning the region for Romulan ships (damn, when do I think of this only know and not when GMC asked it?)


When did we see that? Why don't they do it whenever they go into combat?There are episodes where sensors where jammed, don't have examples right now. Possibly because they can fire manually too.

Smartes thing you've written so far.Seems we are equal then.


ITs not that I didn't understand, its that you're just plain wrong.Like your arguments? too simple.


A completed Death Star? That is specifically armed to defend against capitol ships? Not to mention its full compliment of TIE fighters?I thought you ment an ISD.


No, it wouldn't beOne bomb or whatever is not enough to destroy a fort? Yeah right.

Prove it has the power. Pretty tough since you just invented it. Seriously, drop this idea.Photon torpedo used as the explosive?


So, you had to invent a weakness in a StarDestroyer.It was about theatre shielding.

Just because you can't actually find any ST tech to combat a StarDestroyer and had to fall back on some half assed deus ex machina, ya you are admitting defeat.No.

The whole damned thread has the numbers and sources. Read it and learn what you're talking about before continuing this argument.Central Facehuggeria gave multiple sources with data when I asked for it and then I replied to him. I'm not going to search this entire thread for some numbers when half of them aren't even canon.

Yes, they should be building DS by the dozens because they are needed.

One would be nice. Again, how quick would the Cardassians be to fight the Feds if they knew they could build a DS?


Ferry that have shields versus combat ships without shields, just fire the phaser and rip the TIE fighters 'wings' of. Fire one torpedo on them and they are destroyed, yes TI's really last long.

We have never seen the runabouts pull manuevers anything close to a TIE fighter. We've never seen any ST ship like that. And when have we seen a runabout blast something as small fast and manuverable as a TIE fighter?

And how long can the shields last against the bombardment of the 12 to 1 advantage?

The I drag in the Aeon timeshuttle, just because it is canon.

Its not part of the Sovereign's compliment. Skipray blastboats are in canon sources (Heir to the Empire for one) as being part of a StarDestroyer's compliment.


There are episodes where sensors where jammed, don't have examples right now. Possibly because they can fire manually too.

Possibly? If it can't be used reliable, its not a weapon.

Seems we are equal then.

Wow, them delusions are just taking over aren't they?

Like your arguments? too simple

This entire thread, I've been using canon examples.

I thought you ment an ISD.

No, I was refering to ending the war quick with the DS

One bomb or whatever is not enough to destroy a fort? Yeah right.

Depends on the bomb. And the fort your hitting. We've never seen a Sovereign pack anything with enough power to take down ISD shields with one shot.

It was about theatre shielding.

Doesn't matter really, you still had to invent this great superweapon that we have yet to see anything like in ST.

No.

Brilliant response. Let me write that down. So, just inventing canon is now legitimate debating tactic. Then, when we get called on it, stick out fingers in our ears and yell I CAN'T HERE YOU!!! LALALALALALA!!!!

Central Facehuggeria gave multiple sources with data when I asked for it and then I replied to him. I'm not going to search this entire thread for some numbers when half of them aren't even canon.

Because you have to provide the data on these mystical new bombs. And he hasn't been in this thread for the whole 30+ pages. He's not as fatigued or as annoyed as I am seeing the same crappy arguments over and over.

One would be nice. Again, how quick would the Cardassians be to fight the Feds if they knew they could build a DS?Quite quick if they know it can be destroyed by one torpedo.


We have never seen the runabouts pull manuevers anything close to a TIE fighter. We've never seen any ST ship like that. And when have we seen a runabout blast something as small fast and manuverable as a TIE fighter? Why the maneuvers if they can fire phasers at alomst any direction, the TIE's won't outrun the phaserbeam.

And how long can the shields last against the bombardment of the 12 to 1 advantage? How long does a TIE stand against a phaser?


Its not part of the Sovereign's compliment. Skipray blastboats are in canon sources (Heir to the Empire for one) as being part of a StarDestroyer's compliment.[quote]Have we seen them in the movies? If no, then they don't articipate in the battle.



[quote]Possibly? If it can't be used reliable, its not a weapon.I'll stop being sarcastic, off course tehy can be used manually.

Wow, them delusions are just taking over aren't they?Hope not for you.

This entire thread, I've been using canon examples.Good, then stop insulting each other?

No, I was refering to ending the war quick with the DSThen I misread. Yes, that would destroy the planet, but I doubt the DS would survive long.


Depends on the bomb. And the fort your hitting. We've never seen a Sovereign pack anything with enough power to take down ISD shields with one shot. Then the Feds fire two shots.

Doesn't matter really, you still had to invent this great superweapon that we have yet to see anything like in ST.Might as well use the Genesis torpedo.


Brilliant response. Let me write that down. So, just inventing canon is now legitimate debating tactic. Then, when we get called on it, stick out fingers in our ears and yell I CAN'T HERE YOU!!! LALALALALALA!!!!I meant: No, I meant: I will continue the debate.


as I am seeing the same crappy arguments over and over.I have thesame feeling.

Quite quick if they know it can be destroyed by one torpedo.

DS1 had a thermal exhaust port 2 meters wide. It was down a heavily guarded trench far too narrow for capitol ships (which would get torn up by the turbo lasers any). So, now they have what?

Also the shaft was ray-shielded, thats why the Rebels used the torpedos and not blasters. Apaprently, a small direct energy weapon wouldn't penetrate that shield in a timely fashion.


Why the maneuvers if they can fire phasers at alomst any direction, the TIE's won't outrun the phaserbeam.

That is, if they engage within the runabout's effective weapon's range. And how many shots do you think the shields can hold? Its not a combat vesel, unlike the TIE fighter.

How long does a TIE stand against a phaser?

One? Probably not long. Then again, a 12 to 1 advantage does tip the scales in their favor. Remeber, the Rebel fighters had shields and they succumbed to the overwhelming numbers (with a few notable excepttions).



Have we seen them in the movies? If no, then they don't articipate in the battle.

According to George Lucas, the liscenced novels are canon.



I'll stop being sarcastic, off course tehy can be used manually.

Then, why aren't they used more often?

Then I misread. Yes, that would destroy the planet, but I doubt the DS would survive long.

Why? Is Luke Skywalker Cardassian all of a sudden?


Then the Feds fire two shots.

Again, will it make a difference? We haven't seen them ever do it.

Might as well use the Genesis torpedo.

Which there was only one of with no records of how it was built. their own scientists build the damn thing, and they have no idea how to reproduce it.

Or, if they can, why haven't they used it since? Seems like that would have been great against the Borg.

DS1 had a thermal exhaust port 2 meters wide. It was down a heavily guarded trench far too narrow for capitol ships (which would get torn up by the turbo lasers any). So, now they have what? hmm, a fighter just like happened in SW.

Also the shaft was ray-shielded, thats why the Rebels used the torpedos and not blasters. Apaprently, a small direct energy weapon wouldn't penetrate that shield in a timely fashion.In ST there are torpedos too, so it will work.


That is, if they engage within the runabout's effective weapon's range. And how many shots do you think the shields can hold? Its not a combat vesel, unlike the TIE fighter.it's not a combat vessel but three of them were sent alongside the Odysse to Dominion space. They'll hold long enough.

One? Probably not long. Then again, a 12 to 1 advantage does tip the scales in their favor. Remeber, the Rebel fighters had shields and they succumbed to the overwhelming numbers (with a few notable excepttions).At the very least the Runabouts will inflict considerable damage to the TIE fleet.


According to George Lucas, the liscenced novels are canon.And the movies are higher canon.

hy aren't they used more often?In a ship to ship fight (most of the fights in ST) it would be pretty use-less as you could aim manually.


Luke Skywalker Cardassian all of a sudden?If the SD destroys Cardassia, the Cardassian fleet will attck the DS (and otherwise the Fed-fleet will). The DS will not last long against them (In a few minutes a combined fleet of 20 Romulan warbirds and Cardassian Galors destroyed ~30% of the crust a planet). The DS is smaller than a planet and the fleet would be bigger.


Again, will it make a difference? We haven't seen them ever do it.And if there was, we wouldn't had have this debate.

Which there was only one of with no records of how it was built. their own scientists build the damn thing, and they have no idea how to reproduce it.

Or, if they can, why haven't they used it since? Seems like that would have been great against the Borg.There is never any mention of the Genesis torpedo since, we'll have to assume the project was a failure and never continued.

www.stardestroyer.net.

Shut up, mere mortals.

www.stardestroyer.net.

Shut up, mere mortals.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/

hmm, a fighter just like happened in SW.

what fighters, and I mean FIGHTERS does the Ent have that would survive the trench run?

If the DS destroys Cardassia, the Cardassian fleet will attck the DS (and otherwise the Fed-fleet will). The DS will not last long against them (In a few minutes a combined fleet of 20 Romulan warbirds and Cardassian Galors destroyed ~30% of the crust a planet). The DS is smaller than a planet and the fleet would be bigger.

and how many would know about it? I mean if the planet's gone... who would tell them? Not to mention that the DS would cut swaths of those Cardassian/Romulan vessels

PS. so what aboout 30%, the DS destroyed an entire planet!

http://www.st-v-sw.net/

SD.net disproves the arguments and decisions regarding superiority with real physics.

Also, it doesn't use the sweeping generalisations seen in ST-v-SW.net.

For a start, it presumes the use of direct gunnery is due to 'presumable inaccuracy in computer control'. That's utter crap. No supporting proof used. The whole site is full of that. BAD BAD website.

Don't get me started on the stormtrooper armour section...

I didn't know that, but no SW ship is actually seen cloaking in the movies.

So? SW canon policy is that if it isn't contradicted in the movies (and if it is, and it can be rationalized) then it's canon.

So we have a contradiction (or Palpatine's shuttle is a big vessel but than it wouldn't be shuttle anymore).

Or, gasp, perhaps Needa didn't know enough about cloaking devices? We know Darth Maul's ship had a cloak, and we know Palpy's shuttle did.

If the ISD can fire when cloaked the Feds can aim for the origin of the weaponsfire

Unless the ISD is several light seconds away and has thus already moved before the Feds can track it.

and if the ISD can't fire when cloaked the Feds can use reconnaisance by fire to locate it. (Do ISD's have shields when cloaked?)

I believe that SW ships do retain shields when cloaked. But it doesn't really matter so much because the Feds' weapons can't even destroy an ISD's hull.


Usefull data. Is there an specific number of ships and time for Base Delta Zero Operations

It is usually done with a fleet, but it can be done by a lone ISD within an hour (because the objective is to not let people escape.)

DITL gave the Sovereign a shield power of 4,590,000 TeraJoules, that would be enough to block the weapons of the ISD

DITL is not canon in any way shape or form. Further, the author of that site makes several flawed assumptions, boosting Trek firepower by signifigant amounts.

As an example of the idiocy on DITL.org, take a look at what he considers canon: The 'lasers won't even penetrate our deflectors' despite the fact that two episodes hence the E-D is threatened by ships with lasers.

(although the number given is not canon, I assume the writer made up something sensible rather than an impossibly high figure.)

You assume wrong. Read his fanfic 'portal' to see the kind of person you're dealing with.

Very high, especially when the others sources give numbers in the gigaton range. (Unless you refer to the DS)

Dadonna's quote is: " [The Death Star] Carries a firepower greater than half the star-fleet."


200 gigaton seeems in line with the Base Delta Zero. Are the Hoth asteroid calcs on Stardestroyer.net? (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Impact-examples.html ?)

I think they're either part of the Turbolaser commentaries, or they're on SB.com. I can't remember which.

Another gigaton range, I need to find some canon shield strengths for the Sovereign, but even if I make them 4,590,000 Gigajoules they're still strong enough to withstand it.

Yeah, if you took that non-canon, unsupported fanwank number.

12 to 1 advantage of dedicated combat ships against a ferry with questionable shield strength and minimal armorments.The I drag in the Aeon timeshuttle, just because it is canon.

Tell ya what, how about you quantify the Aeon and then we'll talk.


Central Facehuggeria gave multiple sources with data when I asked for it and then I replied to him. I'm not going to search this entire thread for some numbers when half of them aren't even canon.

You'll find that the only non-canon numbers put forth are those from the Trek side.

hmm, a fighter just like happened in SW.

In ST there are torpedos too, so it will work.

Provided the fighters (the only true fighters in ST byt the way are the Jem'Haddar Bugs. Perreigrines are converted transports according to Paramount) are as fast, manueverable or as heavily armed as the best SW fighters. Remeber, 1 fighter survived the trench run in ANH, and he had a mystical guide to get past the sensor jamming and make his shot.


it's not a combat vessel but three of them were sent alongside the Odysse to Dominion space. They'll hold long enough.

I have no idea why thats proof they will survive an attack from dedicated combat vessels.

At the very least the Runabouts will inflict considerable damage to the TIE fleet.

Which means what? 10 TIE fighters? 20? Even ig they knock out half before getting wiped out, the TIE bombers will still be able to hammer on the Sovereign in conjunction with the ISD itself.


And the movies are higher canon.

Is there anything in the movies that says there are no Skiprays on ISDs? No? Didn't think so.

In a ship to ship fight (most of the fights in ST) it would be pretty use-less as you could aim manually.

Ship to ship in SW is at greater distances than in ST. Also, on ISDs, the guns use human operators as well as computers in conjunction. It makes for a reliable redundancy system.

If the SD destroys Cardassia, the Cardassian fleet will attck the DS (and otherwise the Fed-fleet will).

3 ISDs can BDZ a planet in about an hour. I feel bad for the Cardassian ships going after that.

(In a few minutes a combined fleet of 20 Romulan warbirds and Cardassian Galors destroyed ~30% of the crust a planet).

They did not. That guy was mistaken. They may have decimated 30% of the surface, but there is no way in hell they blew away nearly 1/3 of that planet based on the visuals.

The DS is smaller than a planet and the fleet would be bigger.

A DS is meant to fight off a fleet for a short time. It can hyper in, hold off whatever alliance you can imagine, blast the planet, and hyper out.


And if there was, we wouldn't had have this debate.

Then stop bringning them up. They don't exist.

There is never any mention of the Genesis torpedo since, we'll have to assume the project was a failure and never continued.

So, they don't have anymore? Even as a weapon? then why bring them up?

In ST there are torpedos too, so it will work.

ST torpedos have never demonstrated the ability to make precise ninety degree turns, and they are also signifigantly larger. They probably won't fit.

And the movies are higher canon.

Only in the event of a contradiction that you can't rationalize.

In a ship to ship fight (most of the fights in ST) it would be pretty use-less as you could aim manually.

Problem: SW usually fights at vastly greater ranges than Trek. The battle in ROTJ was considered 'point blank' despite the fact that they were a couple hundred kilometers away as seen from the Emperor's throneroom. (Later they got closer.)

The DS will not last long against them (In a few minutes a combined fleet of 20 Romulan warbirds and Cardassian Galors destroyed ~30% of the crust a planet). The DS is smaller than a planet and the fleet would be bigger.

...TDiC is so fucked up that it's impossible to rationalize. For one: 30 percent of the planet's crust most assuredly was not destroyed. The visuals don't even support megaton level explosions. We see no gratuitous heat releases like we would if more than a quarter of the planet's crust was destroyed.

That it was essientially all a trick by the founders (and is thus not exactly helpful in a debate) is only icing on the cake.

And the fact that we've never seen that kind of firepower from Trek, before or since is only the cherry on top.

But, even assuming TDiC isn't bullshit, destroying a planet's crust is equivelent to a BDZ. Wars planetary shields can resist that kind of firepower almost indefinitely. The DS has a SW planetary grade shield from the OTITW I believe.

hmm, a fighter just like happened in SW.

You somehow miss that the only person who could make the complete run down the DS trench was a Force-user, Luke Skywalker?

SD.net disproves the arguments and decisions regarding superiority with real physics.
Oh for heaven's sake. Why are you lot arguing so seriously about this? Did you miss the post where I said that these two story worlds are mutually incomparable because they're based on different assumptions about how futuristic physics works? They're also not based on anything resembling real-world physics, so using that as a measure fails, also!

Not to mention, as far as Star Trek goes, there's no such thing as internal consistency? Depending on what the writer for the episode/book wanted to happen, entire technologies would vanish or completely change in function? Dare I mention "The Particle of the Week" Syndrome? :)

And here you all are, calling each other names in an argument based on a fallacy. Geez. :D

This thread should have been closed 20 pages ago from what I can tell. It looks like a slap-fight between fanboys assured of their own rightness. There is no new information presented as the thread goes on and there will be no end, just pointless back and forth banter that will never solve anything

I vote we give the Trekkies those ceremonial Klingon blades and Star Wars people some lightsabers and let them duke it out (based on the pantless universe assumption that lightsabers can't cut through ceremonial blades).

I think the Debate is over, the ISD would win. Hands down.

Even if we say that the Phaser Arrays on the SCS are as powerful as a turbo laser. In theory that is. It still only has 16 heavy phaser arrays, vs. the 60 plus Turbo Lasers an ISD has. Its just plain outclassed.

The Feddies still need a good battleship.

And let’s not get into the Enterprise J that people seem to pull out at times.

We saw it for 3 minutes on enterprise. We know nothing about what it can do, or its weapons. Could it take on an ISD? Quite possibly, but until we get some cannon info on it (never) we'll never know.

In short, ISD wins.

Though I do think that TOS and TNG, were possible the greatest Sci Fi's ever made. With The Empire Strikes back being the best Sci Fi movie, with 1st contact in a close 2nd.

I think the Debate is over, the ISD would win. Hands down.

Ahh, welcome to the Dark Side, ECF. You've just taken your steps into a power that many think to be... unnatural. Is it possible to learn this power? Not from a Trekkie. :D

Ahh, welcome to the Dark Side, ECF. You've just taken your steps into a power that many think to be... unnatural. Is it possible to learn this power? Not from a Trekkie. :D
Not really, I just like being an asshole :) An ISD will win, just think about it.

Even if the heavy Phaser Arrays are 3 times more powerful, the ISD still wins.

This thread should have been closed 20 pages ago from what I can tell. It looks like a slap-fight between fanboys assured of their own rightness. There is no new information presented as the thread goes on and there will be no end, just pointless back and forth banter that will never solve anything

Why did you come to a discussion forum in the first place if that's your attitude? Political debates are about as productive as this one, so should I lock the entire general forum?

Why did you come to a discussion forum in the first place if that's your attitude? Political debates are about as productive as this one, so should I lock the entire general forum?
Oh that made me laugh. Thanks GMC.

Crap, wrote a reply to all posts and then I was logged out. all was gone. I'll retype it later.

I think the Debate is over, the ISD would win. Hands down.

Even if we say that the Phaser Arrays on the SCS are as powerful as a turbo laser. In theory that is. It still only has 16 heavy phaser arrays, vs. the 60 plus Turbo Lasers an ISD has. Its just plain outclassed.Aren’t phasers more powerfull?


So?So instead of talking about the SW cloak and what it can and cannot do, show a ship cloaking onscreen. In SW it is only mentioned, in ST they actually do it.


Or, gasp, perhaps Needa didn't know enough about cloaking devices? We know Darth Maul's ship had a cloak, and we know Palpy's shuttle did.I think the captain of a Star Destroyer would at least know something about cloaks.



Unless the ISD is several light seconds away and has thus already moved before the Feds can track it.That’s a pretty good acceleration, going from zero to almost lightspeed in a few seconds (without using the hyperdrive). Or if it was already moving, the Feds can follow the line of fire.


I believe that SW ships do retain shields when cloaked. But it doesn't really matter so much because the Feds' weapons can't even destroy an ISD's hull.Yesterday you posted this: Originally Posted by Slave ship, page 238
The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.
And I posted the canon strength of a photon torpedo (500 megatons, Voy, Scorpion), now, a volley of torpedo’s would destroy the hull of an ISD. That is according to canon figures given.



It is usually done with a fleet, but it can be done by a lone ISD within an hour (because the objective is to not let people escape.)Thanks.


DITL is not canon in any way shape or form. Further, the author of that site makes several flawed assumptions, boosting Trek firepower by signifigant amounts.Yellow is canon, green is technical manuals and white is just made-up (Unfortunately shield strengths are white.)

As an example of the idiocy on DITL.org, take a look at what he considers canon: The 'lasers won't even penetrate our deflectors' despite the fact that two episodes hence the E-D is threatened by ships with lasers.They are threatened, so? I can threaten to destroy an aircraft carrier by throwing a stone against its hull but that doesn’t mean it will be destroyed. The captains of those laser ships didn’t know better than that their lasers would be effective.


Dadonna's quote is: " [The Death Star] Carries a firepower greater than half the star-fleet." Okay, that makes sense.


Yeah, if you took that non-canon, unsupported fanwank number. Thena I’ll take one millionth of the stated power, they are still strong enough.

You'll find that the only non-canon numbers put forth are those from the Trek side.I said half ;)

I have no idea why thats proof they will survive an attack from dedicated combat vesselsThe Feds would not send vessels that wouldn’t stand any chance.

Which means what? 10 TIE fighters? 20?40-50 destroyed or severely damaged TIE fighters would count as considerable damage when outnumbered 12 to 1.

Is there anything in the movies that says there are no Skiprays on ISDs? No? Didn't think so.Is there any mention there are?

Ship to ship in SW is at greater distances than in ST.Read: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html and http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwounded.html He used canon data, both sides are roughly thesame.

3 ISDs can BDZ a planet in about an hour. I feel bad for the Cardassian ships going after that.CF needed one ISD to do it one hour but nevermind. (see above). The Cardassian fleet would win against one or three ISD’s.

They did not. That guy was mistaken. They may have decimated 30% of the surface, but there is no way in hell they blew away nearly 1/3 of that planet based on the visuals.Of the crust, major differance between planet and crust. Besides, we only saw a part of the planet.

A DS is meant to fight off a fleet for a short time. It can hyper in, hold off whatever alliance you can imagine, blast the planet, and hyper out.So you need a hit and run tactic because the DS wouldn’t stand up against a fleet?

Then stop bringning them up. They don't exist.Now you want me to stop bringing up ST? Read again what we discussed, it was about a DS versus 2 ST torpedos.

ST torpedos have never demonstrated the ability to make precise ninety degree turns, and they are also signifigantly larger. They probably won't fit.The casings are the size of a person, the glows around a fired torpedo are several meters. They’ll fit in nicely.

Problem: SW usually fights at vastly greater ranges than Trek. The battle in ROTJ was considered 'point blank' despite the fact that they were a couple hundred kilometers away as seen from the Emperor's throneroom. (Later they got closer.)See my links given above

The visuals don't even support megaton level explosions. We see no gratuitous heat releases like we would if more than a quarter of the planet's crust was destroyed. http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg that are no megaton explosions?

That it was essientially all a trick by the founders (and is thus not exactly helpful in a debate) is only icing on the cake.They destroyed ~30% the crust, what does it matter that it was a trick.

And the fact that we've never seen that kind of firepower from Trek, before or since is only the cherry on top.The episode with Armus gives a torpedo explosion of roughly thesame size. In another episode the Ent-D used one phaser to drill a three kilometer hole in a planet’s crust when in orbit.

You somehow miss that the only person who could make the complete run down the DS trench was a Force-user, Luke Skywalker?I remember that Han Solo succeeded in entering the DS (well, that was the DS2 but wasn’t that one more heavily armed?)

I remember that Han Solo succeeded in entering the DS (well, that was the DS2 but wasn’t that one more heavily armed?)
actually it was the first DS (he got close enough to take out the two escorts to Darth Vader.) the DS2 was Lando piloting the Milinium Falcon and Wedge Antillies in his X-Wing.

actually it was the first DS (he got close enough to take out the two escorts to Darth Vader.) the DS2 was Lando piloting the Milinium Falcon and Wedge Antillies in his X-Wing.Then I misrememberd :p But then, what kind of defence has the DS as you can just fly in it, as seen in two movies.

Then I misrememberd :p But then, what kind of defence has the DS as you can just fly in it, as seen in two movies.
in the first movie, there was a major battle going on. "a small group of fighters have broken away from the main force..."
and remember, of that battle, only two X-Wings survived, of the larger group only 1 Y-Wing was seen flying back with them.
so during this furball, a freighter can be overlooked since gunners and fighters have other things to worry about.

As for the DS2... they first had to take down the sheilds, then find an access point... and even then, the Falcon barely fit.

but I can see your point. The problem with RotJ is that there should've been a second fleet of ISD's stationed opposite of the DS2 just in case the sheilds collasped. but since there wasn't, the DS2 only had their turrent guns to hold off the fighters.

but I can see your point. The problem with RotJ is that there should've been a second fleet of ISD's stationed opposite of the DS2 just in case the sheilds collasped. but since there wasn't, the DS2 only had their turrent guns to hold off the fighters.

The fleet the Empire had was sufficient for the job. Their problem was that they wasted their fighters by sending them in without capship support.

The fleet the Empire had was sufficient for the job. Their problem was that they wasted their fighters by sending them in without capship support.
They were also counting on the sheilds of the DS2 staying up. once the sheilds came down, the fighters (being much faster than the Capships,) could then swarm and infect the DS2.

A smaller secondary fleet stationed on the opposite side of the DS2 would've provided the cover and defences that would've prevented the rebels from winning.

That and the capships were not 'pushing' the rebels into the sheildings. rather they allowed the rebel capships to close and bring the furball to the imps.

Aren’t phasers more powerfull?

No, they aren't.


So instead of talking about the SW cloak and what it can and cannot do, show a ship cloaking onscreen. In SW it is only mentioned, in ST they actually do it.

The fact that cloaking devices are mentioned in the top canon show that SW has cloaking devices. You can't weasel out of that.


I think the captain of a Star Destroyer would at least know something about cloaks.

He knew enough about them to know that normally ships as small as the Falcon can't have them. He doesn't know about the top secret cloaking devices on the Emperor's private shuttle or Darth Maul's Sith Interceptor.



That’s a pretty good acceleration, going from zero to almost lightspeed in a few seconds (without using the hyperdrive). Or if it was already moving, the Feds can follow the line of fire.


And I posted the canon strength of a photon torpedo (500 megatons, Voy, Scorpion)

Wrong! Here's the quote,

Voyager's weapons inventory. Photon torpedo complement: 32. Class 6 warhead. Explosive yield: 200 isotons.

Isotons are a meaningless unit, and judging from observed yields it's unreasonable to say that 1 isoton= 2.5 megatons.

now, a volley of torpedo’s would destroy the hull of an ISD. That is according to canon figures given.

The giga-tonnage remark deals with the weapon recoil, not the thermal capacity of the armor. The AOTC:ICS says that the armour of an Acclamator is only superficially scorched by a fusion warhead. That means that the armor can easily handle at least 100 kT (the smallest yield a fusion warhead can be) explosions without it doing so much as scratching the paint.



Yellow is canon, green is technical manuals and white is just made-up (Unfortunately shield strengths are white.)

Yes, it is a shame that all of his made of his overestimated made up shit isn't canon :rolleyes:

They are threatened, so? I can threaten to destroy an aircraft carrier by throwing a stone against its hull but that doesn’t mean it will be destroyed. The captains of those laser ships didn’t know better than that their lasers would be effective.

By "threatened" it means that the Enterprise was in enough danger to warrant raising the shields and not going into the crossfire of two laser wielding forces. No one was threatening the Enterprise with lasers, the Enterprise saw the use of lasers and saw them as a threat.


Okay, that makes sense.

Glad you say that. Now lets figure out just what that would mean for firepower for the average Imperial ship.

If we assume the Empire has 10 million capital ships, which is not unreasonable since it includes millions of small ships such as frigates used for anti-fighter roles not just ISDs, and he means exactly half of it for 5 million capital ships. From various sources it is shown that he is talking about a single blast or volley, which means that 5 million capital ships can unleash 1e38 Joules( The energy required to produce the explosion of Alderaan) with one blast. This averages out to 2e31 Joules per ship.

For an ISD-II this means 3.125e29 Joules per heavy turbolaser. That's 74 exatons. And that's from top level canon.

Since that is an extremem upper limit let me show you the ESB asteroid calcs for a consevative lower limit.

In ESB we see ISDs vapourizing asteroids with it's light anti-starfighter guns. These asteroids range in size from 40m to 100m. According to SD.net's asteroid destruction calculator that requires 479.1 kT to 7.5 MT. And since we never saw one of these asteroids fail to be vapourized these figures are indeed lower limits.

The heavy turbolasers are much more powerful and are likely in the teraton range.

For example, based off of the engine glow and the area of the engines of an ISD and its observed acceleration the ISDs reactor has an output of ~1e24 Watts. Since it's a warship it can devote most of that power to the weapons, let's be conservative and say 10%. That's ~1e23 Watts for the guns, for an ISD-II that's ~1.6e21 Watts per HTL, or 25 gigatons.

A more realistic percentage is 90%, for 9e23 Watts for 64 HTLs. That's 223 gigatons per HTL.

However, when taken in context that the MTLs of an Acclamator being 200 GTs it's clear that those numbers are too low.


Then I’ll take one millionth of the stated power, they are still strong enough.

So instead of 85,000 TW for phasers you want 85,000 MW for a Sovereign's phasers. Let's say each phaser blast lasts for .1 seconds, that's a yield of .2 kT. That's barely enough to tickle an ISD let alone destroy it's hull or get past its shields. So let's say that DITL is right and it's phasers are 85,000 TW, that's 20 MT using the same time frame. That's still not out of the "tickle" range for the ISD, which can last for several minutes against gigaton-teraton range weapons.


Even the wanked up 500 MT torpedo wouldn't get through the ISDs shields.

Heck, on DITL the Species 8472 Planet Buster ship only has a beam with a yield of 17 GT. It could stand up a little better to 20 year old troop transports than most other Trek ships.


The Feds would not send vessels that wouldn’t stand any chance.

Too bad the Feds most powerful ships have a chance of zero.

40-50 destroyed or severely damaged TIE fighters would count as considerable damage when outnumbered 12 to 1.

SW fighters have kT level firepower, ST cap ships have kT level firepower. You do the math.

Is there any mention there are?

Read: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html and http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwounded.html He used canon data, both sides are roughly thesame.

I read them. Dorkstar's math is faulty, he assumes that a 35 mm camera's lens is always 35mm away from the film. That is patently false as anyone who ever saw a camera zoom lens can tell you. We still have capships engaging eachother at thousands of km range at Endor and the ROTS:ICS saying a 10 light-minute range for a Venator's HTLs.

And if ST ships have such a great range, why do they close to within 10km of eachother 99% of the time for combat and still miss shots.

http://h4h.com/louis/trekmiss.rm


Of the crust, major differance between planet and crust. Besides, we only saw a part of the planet.

And if that part of the planet was undergoing crust destroying firepower we would have seen sub-orbital and orbital ejecta and vast tracts of molten rock.

So you need a hit and run tactic because the DS wouldn’t stand up against a fleet?

The Death Star is worth millions of ISDs. It can fight off fleets with it's surface turbolasers, that's why a fighter atack was necessary.

Now you want me to stop bringing up ST? Read again what we discussed, it was about a DS versus 2 ST torpedos.

The DS's surface defences would obliterate any ST capship which would mean that the trench run would still be necessary. And Photon torpedoes are much larger than proton torpedoes and have never displayed enough maneuverability to make that 90 degree turn into the exhaust shaft. Nor do they have a force sensitive to make the shot.

The casings are the size of a person, the glows around a fired torpedo are several meters. They’ll fit in nicely.

Only if fired in from directly above, and the surface defences make such an approach impossible.

See my links given above

Already addressed.

http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg that are no megaton explosions?

Megaton explosions at most.

They destroyed ~30% the crust, what does it matter that it was a trick.

ST planetary bombardment.
http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg

What a planet with significant crust damage would look like
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/ForeShadow-Planet.jpg

Can you tell me the difference?

The episode with Armus gives a torpedo explosion of roughly thesame size.

What we see is the blinding light of the explosion not the fireball. Going by time it lasted (~1 second)the yield was 35 kilotons.

In another episode the Ent-D used one phaser to drill a three kilometer hole in a planet’s crust when in orbit.

And the phasers needed to be modified, a process that took 2 hours if I remember corectly, to do it.

I remember that Han Solo succeeded in entering the DS (well, that was the DS2 but wasn’t that one more heavily armed?)


It was Lando, and the DS2 was unfinished so many of it's defences were not operational.

In conclusion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/Xessmithia/captantillesOWNED.jpg

Aren’t phasers more powerfull?

No. Phasers have never been able to render an entire planet uninhabitable by turning into molten slag. Turbolasers can.


So instead of talking about the SW cloak and what it can and cannot do, show a ship cloaking onscreen. In SW it is only mentioned, in ST they actually do it.

The point here is? Remember, SW canon is that if it isn't contradicted by a higher source (or it can be rationalized), it's canon. I don't have to show a ship cloaking on screen. I can use the EU because of SW canon policy.

Trek on the other hand has to stick with only the live action movies/shows, two novels, and one episode from the animated series.


I think the captain of a Star Destroyer would at least know something about cloaks.

Why? Cloaks aren't a very prevelent technology, given that they're extremely expensive.



That’s a pretty good acceleration, going from zero to almost lightspeed in a few seconds (without using the hyperdrive). Or if it was already moving, the Feds can follow the line of fire.

No. I'm saying that Turbolasers have a range in the lightminute range, so the ISD can come out of hyperspace well out of the SCS' range and destroy it before the Trekship even has a chance to respond.

Every single thing about a SCS is outclassed by an ISD, except *possibly* weapons coverage.



Yesterday you posted this:

And I posted the canon strength of a photon torpedo (500 megatons, Voy, Scorpion)

I'm sorry, Scorpion doesn't support a strength of five hundred megatons. And even if it did, that would be the high end. A more reasonable end would be 10-30 megatons, or possibly the sub-kiloton weapons we saw in ENT, ST5, and VOY.

, now, a volley of torpedo’s would destroy the hull of an ISD. That is according to canon figures given.

You can't quantify giga-tonnage, all you know is that it is in the 'giga-tonnage' range, which could very easily mean 999 gigatons, or 200 gigatons. The latter meshing very well with the numbers in the EP2ICS.

Yellow is canon, green is technical manuals and white is just made-up (Unfortunately shield strengths are white.)

Yeah, and I'm saying that he is (either deliberately or unintentionally) misinterperating canon. See the lasers-navigation deflector agruement.

They are threatened, so?

So it contradicts the 'Lasers? They won't even penetrate our navigational deflector!' line in TNG's the Outrageous Okona.

I can threaten to destroy an aircraft carrier by throwing a stone against its hull but that doesn’t mean it will be destroyed.

You have a point. Except that the Enterprise wasn't verbally threatened by laser-wielding ships. They saw two sides using lasers and then said 'Oop, they're a threat to us, they're using lasers. Better stay away.'

Xess put it better, but I've found that Trekkies need to have their false ideas destroyed multiple times before they accept the truth.


Thena I’ll take one millionth of the stated power, they are still strong enough.

I'm afraid... not.

The Feds would not send vessels that wouldn’t stand any chance.

Let me put it this way: The entire Borg collective has little chance against a single ISD. The entire trek galaxy barring one-off wonders never seen again and omnipotent godbeings, has no chance against a single Executor class Star-Dreadnought.

Is there any mention there are?

No. But we have EU sources, and since there isn't an irreconciliable contradiction... ISDs carry Skiprays. Case closed.

Read: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html and http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwounded.html He used canon data, both sides are roughly thesame.

Odd then that we see ST closing to within 10 kilometers every time we see a fleet battle (in DS9) for seemingly no reason. At least SW has reasons.

Of the crust, major differance between planet and crust. Besides, we only saw a part of the planet.

By burning down to the crust, you effectively are burning away a good chunk of the planet. We most certainly did not see the effects of 30% of the crust being burned away.

So you need a hit and run tactic because the DS wouldn’t stand up against a fleet?

No. Trekships do not have the firepower to harm the DS without lost tech (that may not work to begin with) in the form of the Genesis Torpedo and such.

The casings are the size of a person, the glows around a fired torpedo are several meters. They’ll fit in nicely.

No, they won't. The hole did not look large enough to fit a person, let alone a coffin sized case.

See my links given above

Refuted by myself and Xess.

http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg that are no megaton explosions?

No. Megaton level explosions would look different. That is some sort of non direct force reaction going on with the planet. Megaton level would be a different color, from the pic you gave me. If you have an earlier one that actually shows fireballs, please provide it.

They destroyed ~30% the crust, what does it matter that it was a trick.

...No, they *didn't* destroy 30% of the crust. That's the whole point. The founders made them think they did, but they really didn't.


I remember that Han Solo succeeded in entering the DS (well, that was the DS2 but wasn’t that one more heavily armed?)

The construction crews on the DS were focusing all their energy towards getting the Superlaser online for Palpy's surprise. They didn't care about the defense guns so much because they were relying on the shield for protection.

Xessmithia is a tool of Wong.

No, they aren't.More precise, we don’t know..


The fact that cloaking devices are mentioned in the top canon show that SW has cloaking devices. You can't weasel out of that.So they have it but that’s all we know.

He knew enough about them to know that normally ships as small as the Falcon can't have them. He doesn't know about the top secret cloaking devices on the Emperor's private shuttle or Darth Maul's Sith Interceptor.So that are most likely special cloaking devices and definitely not for every one to use.

Wrong! Here's the quote…Isotons are a meaningless unit, and judging from observed yields it's unreasonable to say that 1 isoton= 2.5 megatons.2.48 to be precise. Observed yields vary from 45 to 20,000,000,000 megatons (from the TM and calculated from ‘The Die Is Cast’ respectivily). From the episode ‘Skin of Evil’, we get a number of 507 megatons. So the 200 isoton = 500 megaton is reasonably correct.


The giga-tonnage remark deals with the weapon recoil, not the thermal capacity of the armor. The AOTC:ICS says that the armour of an Acclamator is only superficially scorched by a fusion warhead. That means that the armor can easily handle at least 100 kT (the smallest yield a fusion warhead can be) explosions without it doing so much as scratching the paint.Photon torpedo’s are not fusion warheads so the second part of your argument means nothing. For the first part: the point of impact would be vaporized by a torpedo strike.


Yes, it is a shame that all of his made of his overestimated made up shit isn't canon :rolleyes: So I take one millionth of the suggested power, just to be nice, and even then you still bicker about it. Take one millionth of the shield power of an ISD and there’s nothing left while ST is at least equal to SW still.


By "threatened" it means that the Enterprise was in enough danger to warrant raising the shields and not going into the crossfire of two laser wielding forces. No one was threatening the Enterprise with lasers, the Enterprise saw the use of lasers and saw them as a threat.In the episode they state they are immune to lasers, they never raised shields because the lasers were a threat. The lasers couldn’t even penetrate the navigational shields.


From various sources it is shown that he is talking about a single blast or volley
"The battlestation is heavily shielded, and carries a firepower greater than half the starfleet. It's defenses are designed around a direct, large-scale assault. A small, one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense." The referred firepower is the firepower of the turbolasers on the DS (possibly including the superlaser), not the power of the superlaser alone. Think about it: why would he inform the fighterpilots on the power of the superlaser, they already know it can destroy planets and they will not be attacked by it. Or is the superlaser part of the defence?(I think not). Although the math of your calcs is correct, the staring values are wrong.
In ESB we see ISDs vapourizing asteroids with it's light anti-starfighter guns. These asteroids range in size from 40m to 100m. According to SD.net's asteroid destruction calculator that requires 479.1 kT to 7.5 MT. And since we never saw one of these asteroids fail to be vapourized these figures are indeed lower limits.Better calculations.

The heavy turbolasers are much more powerful and are likely in the teraton range.

For example, based off of the engine glow and the area of the engines of an ISD and its observed acceleration the ISDs reactor has an output of ~1e24 Watts. Since it's a warship it can devote most of that power to the weapons, let's be conservative and say 10%. That's ~1e23 Watts for the guns, for an ISD-II that's ~1.6e21 Watts per HTL, or 25 gigatons.

A more realistic percentage is 90%, for 9e23 Watts for 64 HTLs. That's 223 gigatons per HTL.

However, when taken in context that the MTLs of an Acclamator being 200 GTs it's clear that those numbers are too low.You base the entire power output of a ship on the way its engines glow?



So instead of 85,000 TW for phasers you want 85,000 MW for a Sovereign's phasers. Let's say each phaser blast lasts for .1 seconds, that's a yield of .2 kT. That's barely enough to tickle an ISD let alone destroy it's hull or get past its shields. So let's say that DITL is right and it's phasers are 85,000 TW, that's 20 MT using the same time frame. That's still not out of the "tickle" range for the ISD, which can last for several minutes against gigaton-teraton range weapons.Too bad I was talking about the shield and not the phaser power…..

Even the wanked up 500 MT torpedo wouldn't get through the ISDs shields.So canon figures are now wanked up?


SW fighters have kT level firepower, ST cap ships have kT level firepower. You do the math. Okay, 500 megaton = 500,000 kiloton, correct?

Is there any mention there are?What are? It was about TIE fighters versus Runabouts and you want something mentioned?


I read them. Dorkstar's math is faulty, he assumes that a 35 mm camera's lens is always 35mm away from the film. That is patently false as anyone who ever saw a camera zoom lens can tell you.
Now there's the "ImageDistancetoLens". This can change rather easily thanks to zooming, but all things being equal the zoom should be assumed to be one (i.e. a normal, non-zoomed image). In that case, the figure to use would be that for a normal lack of zoom . . . this figure happens to also be 35 millimeters, which is roughly the distance between your eye's lens and retina. In other words, 35 millimeter focal length produces a natural, zoomless image, much like the one we see in the Falcon cockpit shot above. So:
OD/6m = 35mm/1.03mm
OD/6m = 34
OD = 6m x 34
OD = 204m
You didn’t read that? An astounding 204 meters. Fortunately he made a second calculation for SW fans bringing it to 54 kilometers. ST has the same distances.

We still have capships engaging eachother at thousands of km range at Endor and the ROTS:ICS saying a 10 light-minute range for a Venator's HTLs.That’s absurd, even if the turbolasers shots go at light speed you still have 10 minutes to evade it.

And if ST ships have such a great range, why do they close to within 10km of eachother 99% of the time for combat and still miss shots.Phasers hit 99% of the times..

And if that part of the planet was undergoing crust destroying firepower we would have seen sub-orbital and orbital ejecta and vast tracts of molten rock.How can you see it when it’s on the other side of the planet? It takes time to get an orbit, it wouldn’t immidiatly be there.


The Death Star is worth millions of ISDs. It can fight off fleets with it's surface turbolasers, that's why a fighter atack was necessary.If it can stand up against a fleet it doesn’t have hyper in and out, does it?


The DS's surface defences would obliterate any ST capship which would mean that the trench run would still be necessary. And Photon torpedoes are much larger than proton torpedoes and have never displayed enough maneuverability to make that 90 degree turn into the exhaust shaft.How big is a proton torpedo? Probably about the same size as a photon torpedo.


Only if fired in from directly above, and the surface defences make such an approach impossible. So now you accept that photon torpedo’s do fit in.

Megaton explosions at most.Indeed, megaton.


ST planetary bombardment.
http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg

What a planet with significant crust damage would look like
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/ForeShadow-Planet.jpg

Can you tell me the difference?That the first one looks like a 30% destroyed crust with a planet under it and the second one looks like a red X.


What we see is the blinding light of the explosion not the fireball. Going by time it lasted (~1 second)the yield was 35 kilotons.And calculated as 500 megatons.


And the phasers needed to be modified, a process that took 2 hours if I remember corectly, to do it.That doesn’t change the fact that they drilled 3 kilometers down.




In conclusion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/Xessmithia/captantillesOWNED.jpg
Since you like pictures:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/fun/starwars_muppets.jpg




The point here is? Remember, SW canon is that if it isn't contradicted by a higher source (or it can be rationalized), it's canon. I don't have to show a ship cloaking on screen. I can use the EU because of SW canon policy.

Trek on the other hand has to stick with only the live action movies/shows, two novels, and one episode from the animated series.The point is that we are comparing something that is only mentioned in books and something we see on screen in every ST series.

Why? Cloaks aren't a very prevelent technology, given that they're extremely expensive. So they would be unavailable to SW and we can now disregard them.

No. I'm saying that Turbolasers have a range in the lightminute range, so the ISD can come out of hyperspace well out of the SCS' range and destroy it before the Trekship even has a chance to respond. I already made a point of that above here.

I'm sorry, Scorpion doesn't support a strength of five hundred megatons. And even if it did, that would be the high end. A more reasonable end would be 10-30 megatons, or possibly the sub-kiloton weapons we saw in ENT, ST5, and VOYAgain, see above.

Xess put it better, but I've found that Trekkies need to have their false ideas destroyed multiple times before they accept the truth.Something we share with Warsies.

I'm afraid... not.Shields of 4,590,000 gigajoules I made them, did I? That is enough.

Trekships do not have the firepower to harm the DS Is what you say.

Refuted by myself and Xess. And then refuted by me.

Megaton level explosions would look different…Megaton level would be a different color …They would look different and have a different color, that’s all you have to say to counter it? Then the power of the DS superlaser is 1 kWatt, just because the color is green.

If you have an earlier one that actually shows fireballs, please provide it.[./quote]I’m sorry but I don’ have one.

[quote] ...No, they *didn't* destroy 30% of the crust. That's the whole point. The founders made them think they did, but they really didn't.They saw it and scanned it.

Aren’t phasers more powerfull?


So instead of talking about the SW cloak and what it can and cannot do, show a ship cloaking onscreen. In SW it is only mentioned, in ST they actually do it.


I think the captain of a Star Destroyer would at least know something about cloaks.



That’s a pretty good acceleration, going from zero to almost lightspeed in a few seconds (without using the hyperdrive). Or if it was already moving, the Feds can follow the line of fire.


Yesterday you posted this: And I posted the canon strength of a photon torpedo (500 megatons, Voy, Scorpion), now, a volley of torpedo’s would destroy the hull of an ISD. That is according to canon figures given.



Thanks.


Yellow is canon, green is technical manuals and white is just made-up (Unfortunately shield strengths are white.)

They are threatened, so? I can threaten to destroy an aircraft carrier by throwing a stone against its hull but that doesn’t mean it will be destroyed. The captains of those laser ships didn’t know better than that their lasers would be effective.


Okay, that makes sense.


Thena I’ll take one millionth of the stated power, they are still strong enough.

I said half ;)

The Feds would not send vessels that wouldn’t stand any chance.

40-50 destroyed or severely damaged TIE fighters would count as considerable damage when outnumbered 12 to 1.

Is there any mention there are?

Read: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html and http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwounded.html He used canon data, both sides are roughly thesame.

CF needed one ISD to do it one hour but nevermind. (see above). The Cardassian fleet would win against one or three ISD’s.

Of the crust, major differance between planet and crust. Besides, we only saw a part of the planet.

So you need a hit and run tactic because the DS wouldn’t stand up against a fleet?

Now you want me to stop bringing up ST? Read again what we discussed, it was about a DS versus 2 ST torpedos.

The casings are the size of a person, the glows around a fired torpedo are several meters. They’ll fit in nicely.

See my links given above

http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg that are no megaton explosions?

They destroyed ~30% the crust, what does it matter that it was a trick.

The episode with Armus gives a torpedo explosion of roughly thesame size. In another episode the Ent-D used one phaser to drill a three kilometer hole in a planet’s crust when in orbit.



Brilliant. I especially liked this part about the range of Star Wars ships:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/ANH/ANH92232.jpg

That's out of range.

HC you need to fix your quote tags, I tried my best to decipher your mess but my responses are still out of order.


More precise, we don’t know..

Actually we DO know. Turbolasers have gigaton-teraton level yield, phasers are kT level.


So they have it but that’s all we know.

What do you want? Instructions on how to build one?

So that are most likely special cloaking devices and definitely not for every one to use.

I never said that those weren't special cloaking devices, nor did I say they'd be common. I said it to show that Captain Needs didn't know about the cloaking devices that do fit on ships smaller than the Falcon.

2.48 to be precise.

Go back to gradeschool numbnuts, 500/200 = 2.5. No wonder you think Trek would win, you can't even do basic math.

Observed yields vary from 45

Going from the non-canon TM the max yield of a photorp is 64 MT, but since it's omni-directional the effective yield is 32 MT. Quantum torps are said to be twice as powerful, for an effective yield of 64 MT.

Note that despite your claims to the contrary, ST has never shown that kind of firepower except for one-of-a-kind never repeated events.

to 20,000,000,000 megatons (from the TM and calculated from ‘The Die Is Cast’ respectivily).

So not only did you do the TM math wrong you treated the entire bombardment in TDiC as one blast, and used the flawed 30% of the crust basis. Go back to gradeschool.

From the episode ‘Skin of Evil’, we get a number of 507 megatons. So the 200 isoton = 500 megaton is reasonably correct.

Like I said earlier, that flash isn't the fireball, it's the flash from the explosion. For example the Trinity test produced a light so bright it could blind people 20 miles away, and the 1904 Tunguska(in Siberia) blast produced a light that was so bright people in London could read by it at night.

The time it lasts is a better indicator of yield and that puts it at ~35 kilotons. Which is consistent with the rest of Trek.


Photon torpedo’s are not fusion warheads so the second part of your argument means nothing.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I showed that a minimum 100 kT blast only scorched the hull of an Acclamator transport. It doesn't matter if that was a fusion or M/AM warhead the amount of energy it handled without damage is important.

But I don't expect your gradeschool level mind to understand that.

For the first part: the point of impact would be vaporized by a torpedo strike.

That would be the "scorched" part of the armour.


So I take one millionth of the suggested power, just to be nice, and even then you still bicker about it.

Of course, why would you intenitonally weaken your side? Even if the numbers you were using were non-canon fanwank.

Too bad I was talking about the shield and not the phaser power…..

Ok then according to DITL a SCS has a shield capacity of 4,590,000 TeraJoules, or ~1.1 gigaton. That means an Acclamator can drop the shields and have 198.9 gigatons left to vape the SCS. A millionth of that is 1.1 kilotons, and it can be destroyed by SW fighters.

So canon figures are now wanked up?

Too bad we've never seen 500 MT torpedoes.

Okay, 500 megaton = 500,000 kiloton, correct?


So you can do simple math. Well done. Of course we've never seen 500 MT torps.

What are? It was about TIE fighters versus Runabouts and you want something mentioned?

You're responding to yourself there.

You didn’t read that? An astounding 204 meters. Fortunately he made a second calculation for SW fans bringing it to 54 kilometers. ST has the same distances.

I read it. That still doesn't mean that the focal length was 35mm. And it's not a maximum range anyway, or did you miss the fleets in ROTJ engaging at thousands of kilometers?

That’s absurd, even if the turbolasers shots go at light speed you still have 10 minutes to evade it.

TLs do travel at c. And that's the range against stationary targets or non-evading moving targerts with no jamming.

Phasers hit 99% of the times..

No they don't. Did you even watch that video?

How can you see it when it’s on the other side of the planet? It takes time to get an orbit, it wouldn’t immidiatly be there.

If the current bombardment was damaging the crust that baddly we'd see it.

If it can stand up against a fleet it doesn’t have hyper in and out, does it?

No it wouldn't. Nor did it ever do a hit and run.

How big is a proton torpedo? Probably about the same size as a photon torpedo.

About .5 meters in diameter. A photorp is about .5 meters by 2 meters.

Take one millionth of the shield power of an ISD and there’s nothing left while ST is at least equal to SW still.

Why would I take 1 millionth of an ISDs shield power and not do the same to the SCS? What are you smoking so I can avoid it?


In the episode they state they are immune to lasers, they never raised shields because the lasers were a threat. The lasers couldn’t even penetrate the navigational shields.

And yet a few episodes later, lasers are a threat to the ship. Obviously the lasers in "The Outrageus Okona" were just too weak to harm even the navigational deflectors, not that they were immune to all lasers. Which by the way is a huge No-Limits fallacy.



The referred firepower is the firepower of the turbolasers on the DS (possibly including the superlaser), not the power of the superlaser alone. Think about it: why would he inform the fighterpilots on the power of the superlaser, they already know it can destroy planets and they will not be attacked by it. Or is the superlaser part of the defence?(I think not).

Dodonna says "firepower" not "defensive firepower". He is taking the superlaser into acount, afterall that is the reason why they want to blow it up.

Although the math of your calcs is correct, the staring values are wrong.

It provides a good extreme upper limit. Which is what I said it was.

Better calculations.

And they show that an ISD can out power a Fed ship.

You base the entire power output of a ship on the way its engines glow?

That and its acceleration. You see things a certain colour are a certain temperature. You can use that to figure out the power of something. Astronomers do it all the time with stars.


Indeed, megaton.

At most, and low megaton at that (<50 megatons).

That the first one looks like a 30% destroyed crust with a planet under it and the second one looks like a red X.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/Xessmithia/FSPCrustIMG.jpg
There's the second one again. That's what it would look like if 30% or more of the crust is destroyed. Not the funky clouds in TDiC.

And calculated as 500 megatons.

Addressed above.

That doesn’t change the fact that they drilled 3 kilometers down.


With a chain reaction weapon that works best against low density materials like rock. Not that impressive.



[quote]Since you like pictures:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/fun/starwars_muppets.jpg[quote]

Funny picture. :D

Brilliant. I especially liked this part about the range of Star Wars ships:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Episodes/ANH/ANH92232.jpg

That's out of range.

Do you have anything usefull to say?

Xessmithia is a tool of Wong.

And that means I'm right, and you're wrong. Now bug off asshole.

The Debate is over, an ISD wins.

Lets be nice, even if a Phaser Array was twice as powerful as a turbolaser. Think about it for a second the ISD still has more firepower, just because it has 60+ weapons compared to an SCS's 16.

Then again, we have character sheilding, put the MF up aganist anything with the word enterprise on it, and we'll have a fight that will never end.


Though I do think that ST is way better than SW will ever be. Voyager, Enterprise Seasons 1 and 2 and most of DS9 dont count.

I'm talking about TNG and TOS, and some of the early movies, were just plain awsome.

Obviously it would be the Star Destroyer.

So they have it but that’s all we know.

We also know the basics of its function from the EU. Basically, it's a 'true' cloak that AFAIK leaves the ship at least partially blind, and can only be detected by the mass signature your ship leaves as it resides in real space.


Observed yields vary from 45

No. Observed yields are from the single digit tons in STV (When Kirk was talking to 'God' and Spock fired a photon torpedo at 'god.' Kirk was able to escape on foot.)

(We also have an incident in Voyager where a Kazon photon torpedo was fired at the top of a building and it failed to even demolish the top floor.)

(We also have the Vulcan bombardment in the ENT Vulcan arc, where the Vulcans bombarded a valley with what looked like photon torpedos that did not even do as much damage as a modern artillery barrage.)

Up to the single digit megaton level explosions we see in the rest of the series. (Being as generous as possible to the Trek side.)

to 20,000,000,000 megatons (from the TM and calculated from ‘The Die Is Cast’ respectivily).

From the episode ‘Skin of Evil’, we get a number of 507 megatons. So the 200 isoton = 500 megaton is reasonably correct.

...If the Skin of Evil example was accurate. It is not. The shuttle's anti-matter fuel most likely exploded, tainting the results because we don't know how much anti-matter was on the ship.


Photon torpedo’s are not fusion warheads so the second part of your argument means nothing.

Actually, it means quite a bit. Photon torpedoes are anti-matter missiles. When anti-matter explodes, you get a lot of two things: Heat and gamma rays. Just like, surprise, surprise, Nuclear weapons!

For the first part: the point of impact would be vaporized by a torpedo strike.

No, it wouldn't. The energy would be conducted to the rest of the armor, hence why it's called superconductive armor, eh?


So I take one millionth of the suggested power, just to be nice, and even then you still bicker about it. Take one millionth of the shield power of an ISD and there’s nothing left while ST is at least equal to SW still.

I'm sorry, an Acclamator has a shield rating of sixteen teratons. A millionth of that is *still* high enough to match Trek. ISDs, being pure warships and not being designed to land in an atmosphere (as well as simply being far larger by volume) would more than likely have even stronger shields.


In the episode they state they are immune to lasers, they never raised shields because the lasers were a threat. The lasers couldn’t even penetrate the navigational shields.

That particular race's lasers. Yet two episodes later (I posted the quote in question several posts ago) we see Picard hesitant to move into a crossfire where the two combatants are using lasers. That's a mighty strange thing to do if they're immune to lasers.



The referred firepower is the firepower of the turbolasers on the DS (possibly including the superlaser), not the power of the superlaser alone.

Patently false. The BTM CD (Behind the Magic) says that the Superlaser is what possesses a firepower greater than half the star fleet. I believe the OTITW and Old essiential guide to vehicles and vessels does as well.

Think about it: why would he inform the fighterpilots on the power of the superlaser, they already know it can destroy planets and they will not be
attacked by it.

Perhaps because, *gasp* that's the entire purpose of the damned battlestation? Perhaps because he has to mention the Superlaser somewhere in the briefing, and he doesn't anywhere else.

Although the math of your calcs is correct, the staring values are wrong.

No. Stop trolling here.

You base the entire power output of a ship on the way its engines glow?

The brightness of a reaction drive can be used to calculate how much power is being fed to the engines. Xess did this. Just because it comes out to higher numbers than you would like does not invalidate the calculations.


The point is that we are comparing something that is only mentioned in books and something we see on screen in every ST series.

And? That doesn't make any difference here. Red herring defeated.

I already made a point of that above here.

A point that was unsupported. We have examples of Fed ships closing to single digit kilometer ranges in battle. They do this in every major space battle in DS9. There appears to be no reason for this, unless Fed gunnery is so inaccurate that they could miss at such pathetic (comparatively) ranges.

Something we share with Warsies.

Aye. Problem being that you haven't actually provided any evidence that the Warsies, myself included, haven't already refuted. To defeat someone's arguement, you have to, you know, provide proof and support for your statements.

Shields of 4,590,000 gigajoules I made them, did I? That is enough.

...*Makes ISD shields 1E32 joules*

Come back when you have some reasonably canon numbers.


And then refuted by me.

Only in your own little Trekkie Bizarro world. You see, here we actually require *proof* and *logic* before we accept that something has been refuted.

…They would look different and have a different color, that’s all you have to say to counter it?

Yeah, when dealing with explosions that are multi-megaton level, they should look similar to how a nuclear explosion would, a big honking orange/red fireball with a bright flash in the center. There isn't much reason I can think of for why they would be the brown rings we saw instead of normal explosions.

What I'm saying is that the whole thing is screwy because megaton explosions don't look like that, so there must be something else going on.

Then the power of the DS superlaser is 1 kWatt, just because the color is green.

Non sequitor.

Besides, we see the effects of the DS, and incidentally, they look like *exactly* what would happen if the planet's gravitational binding energy were overcome. And since the only way to do that is by applying 1E32 (or more) joules of force...

...The DS really is that powerful.

I’m sorry but I don’ have one.

Concession accepted then.

They saw it and scanned it.
And the Founder couldn't have fucked with their scanners? I do recall that he was impersonating a rather high-ranking admiral.

I'm going to also point out that Trek accuracy sucks ass. Remember in ST V, where the Klingon Bird of Prey closed to within single digit Km range of a NASA space probe, and then its first volley was a near miss?

I recognize some of you like visual proof of Trek's crappiness, so here we go:

http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=4
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=5
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=6
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=14
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=15
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=16
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/displayimage.php?album=136&pos=17

Frame 17 is particularly interesting. A practically point blank shot (even if its only a grazing one), only damages a 20th century space probe.

STAR TREK is GAY! :gundge:

anyway, the whole proton versus quantum is retarded. the technology is the same, and the difference between phasers and lasers?

also, the lasers arent true lasers. they are super heated plasma bolts that utlize a highly compressed gas that forms a liquid burning slavo when ignited.

also, a star destroyer has ion cannons. ion cannons absorb negatively phased energy and neutralize it. i.e electricity is a bunch of e-'s, thus the ion cannon would weaken your pitiful star trek shields.

also, common misconception is that str destroyers are slow. they are actually quite fast, but not maneuverable.

fighters would cause damage in effect of the sheer number. a star destroyer has three wings of TIEs two wings of TIE intercepters and one wing of TIE bombers. thats 32x6, so 182 fighters.

Do you have anything usefull to say?

Looks like he's gettin' angry . . .

also, a star destroyer has ion cannons. ion cannons absorb negatively phased energy and neutralize it. i.e electricity is a bunch of e-'s, thus the ion cannon would weaken your pitiful star trek shields.

Good luck hitting a ship that travels faster than the ion cannon.

the polls show, warsies have won. :p

Like I said earlier, that flash isn't the fireball, it's the flash from the explosion. For example the Trinity test produced a light so bright it could blind people 20 miles away, and the 1904 Tunguska(in Siberia) blast produced a light that was so bright people in London could read by it at night.
Actually, re: the Tunguska Event, the light you're referring to wasn't the light produced by the fireball, it occurred in the evenings after the event. It was caused by the dust, ejected into the upper atmosphere by the blast, scattering sunlight well after twilight, to such a degree that one could read by it. The blast fireball itself wasn't visible at that distance, to my knowledge.

Despite my "this thread is silly" argument, I think you're winning this debate, Xessmithia, based on more consistent and better documented arguments. That, and Star Wars is just slightly cooler than Star Trek. :)

Della Lu still pwns both of them, though. :D

Things would quickly swing in Star Trek's favour, however, if they'd stop discarding useful technologies after one episode. My biggest gripe there is the mysterious disappearance of the dimensional shift transporter. Talk about the ultimate weapon gone to waste... :headbang:

And that means I'm right, and you're wrong. Now bug off asshole.

Now, at what point did I say that was a bad thing? Jesus, that was nice of you. And I'm the asshole?

Now, at what point did I say that was a bad thing? Jesus, that was nice of you. And I'm the asshole?

It was implied, and since you didn't clarify it wasn't an insult, I took it as an insult. Now next time you call someone a tool and don't want to get your feelings hurt add a fucking clarification.

It was implied, and since you didn't clarify it wasn't an insult, I took it as an insult. Now next time you call someone a tool and don't want to get your feelings hurt add a fucking clarification.

I didn't get my feelings hurt. I just thought that was uncalled for. Now, for an insult:

STOP JUMPING TO FUCKING CONCLUSIONS YOU PILLOCK!

This is, by far, the most entertaining nerd discussion I have ever read on the internet.

This is, by far, the most entertaining nerd discussion I have ever read on the internet.

Says he of the silly hats.

I didn't get my feelings hurt. I just thought that was uncalled for. Now, for an insult:

STOP JUMPING TO FUCKING CONCLUSIONS YOU PILLOCK!

See, now that's clear. Keep it up and maybe you'll actually make understandable posts from time to time.

HC you need to fix your quote tags, I tried my best to decipher your mess but my responses are still out of order.Done, apologies for the bad quoting.

What do you want? Instructions on how to build one?That would be nice but the general working would be good too.

Go back to gradeschool numbnuts, 500/200 = 2.5. No wonder you think Trek would win, you can't even do basic math.Actually, I used 500 megatons as a midway between the 496 megatons from Voy and the 507.55 megatons from TNG. 496/200 = 2.48 (I should have mentioned that.)


Going from the non-canon TM the max yield of a photorp is 64 MT, but since it's omni-directional the effective yield is 32 MT. Quantum torps are said to be twice as powerful, for an effective yield of 64 MT.Indeed, non canon. My figures come from episodes and are canon.

Note that despite your claims to the contrary, ST has never shown that kind of firepower except for one-of-a-kind never repeated events.It was stated in Voy, seen in both TNG and DS9 but that’s not enough for you?

So not only did you do the TM math wrong you treated the entire bombardment in TDiC as one blast, and used the flawed 30% of the crust basisAnd thereby providing an upper limit.

Like I said earlier, that flash isn't the fireball, it's the flash from the explosion. For example the Trinity test produced a light so bright it could blind people 20 miles away, and the 1904 Tunguska(in Siberia) blast produced a light that was so bright people in London could read by it at night.

The time it lasts is a better indicator of yield and that puts it at ~35 kilotons. Which is consistent with the rest of Trek.I don’t see a flash but a crater.


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I showed that a minimum 100 kT blast only scorched the hull of an Acclamator transport. It doesn't matter if that was a fusion or M/AM warhead the amount of energy it handled without damage is important.True, but a M/AM reaction produces more energy than a fusion reaction.



That would be the "scorched" part of the armour.And the crater when there’s a bigger explosion.



Of course, why would you intenitonally weaken your side?To give SW a chance.


Too bad we've never seen 500 MT torpedoes.You don’t read what I post? I showed to you that there are, it is even stated on screen, what more do you want?


I read it. That still doesn't mean that the focal length was 35mm. And it's not a maximum range anyway, or did you miss the fleets in ROTJ engaging at thousands of kilometers?It is a maximum range for the Falcon.

TLs do travel at c. And that's the range against stationary targets or non-evading moving targerts with no jamming.That would mostly be planets, space stations and suns and defiantly not a ship to ship fight.


No they don't. Did you even watch that video?No, it doesn’t play. I’ll try again later on another pc.


If the current bombardment was damaging the crust that baddly we'd see it.We see craters, but you guys want lava etc.


About .5 meters in diameter. A photorp is about .5 meters by 2 meters.2 meters long that is, so the frontal size would be the same.


And yet a few episodes later, lasers are a threat to the ship. Obviously the lasers in "The Outrageus Okona" were just too weak to harm even the navigational deflectors, not that they were immune to all lasers. Which by the way is a huge No-Limits fallacy.Was that the episode were they were brainwashed in thinking the Federation was at war?

That and its acceleration. You see things a certain colour are a certain temperature. You can use that to figure out the power of something. Astronomers do it all the time with stars.And how about the effective energy? Maybe 90% is lost as heat.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/Xessmithia/FSPCrustIMG.jpg
There's the second one again. That's what it would look like if 30% or more of the crust is destroyed. Not the funky clouds in TDiC.That’s more like 70% destroyed, not 30% or more..


With a chain reaction weapon that works best against low density materials like rock. Not that impressive.So the planet the DS destroyed was made of titanium or something but not rock? Anyway, it is about the time and amount they destroyed in that ST scene.


More to come.

See, now that's clear. Keep it up and maybe you'll actually make understandable posts from time to time.

Oooh, zing.

Actually, I used 500 megatons as a midway between the 496 megatons from Voy and the 507.55 megatons from TNG. 496/200 = 2.48 (I should have mentioned that.)

Circular logic fallacy. Using Voyager's 200 isotons=496 megatons as proof that 200 isotons is 496 megatons does not work.

Provide proof, your own proof that Trekweapons are in the triple digit megaton range when we have no evidence. Stop parroting Dark Star and actually make your own arguement.


Indeed, non canon. My figures come from episodes and are canon.

No, your figures come from calculations, inaccurate calculations done based on instances in the episodes.

It was stated in Voy, seen in both TNG and DS9 but that’s not enough for you?

When we also have examples of kiloton yields, and they outnumber the high examples amounts? Yeah. That isn't enough.

And thereby providing an upper limit.

No, you provided an inaccurate upper limit. A better upper limit would be taking the number and then dividing it by the number of explosions we saw.

True, but a M/AM reaction produces more energy than a fusion reaction.

...Not necessarily. Anti-matter reactions are more efficient, so you only need a tiny amount of anti-matter to produce the energy of a nuclear fusion reaction. Based on the examples we have of Trek firepower, they are actually *weaker* than an average hydrogen bomb. Which means that they have an absolutely tiny amount of anti-matter (which makes sense given how hard it is to contain it, as seen in every episode of TNG where the warp core threatened to explode.)



And the crater when there’s a bigger explosion.

Superconductive armor wouldn't crater. It would either melt all at once, or glow red hot. Of course, given that this superconductive armor can take gigatons of force being applied to it, which is *still* far more powerful than any reasonable estimate of Trek strength...

No. The Trekships have no chance.


To give SW a chance.

Quite ironic then. Thing is that SW has the raw yields to anally rape Trek. Remember the slave-ship quote I posted? The turbolasers obviously put out some sort of blast in the gigaton range. And since even one gigaton will royally destroy just about any trekship in one hit... (Or are you forgetting that the E-D's shields were destroyed by two blasts from a four hundred gigawatt particle beam?)


You don’t read what I post? I showed to you that there are, it is even stated on screen, what more do you want?

Actual proof that he hasn't refuted. The Voy example is meaningless because Isotons don't actually mean anything in real terms. The flash from the 'wounded' example is more consistent with a kiloton explosion than anything else, and it's tainted by the addition of the shuttle's exploding fuel.

The TDiC example does not look like 30 percent of the crust were being destroyed. Given that the whole thing was a trick by the founders, visuals trump character dialog, given that they were mislead.


It is a maximum range for the Falcon.

Which might be important if we were debating the Falcon. We are not. We are debating the ISD's weapons range, and as of yet, you have provided no proof that refutes anything. You've just been parroting Darkstar.

That would mostly be planets, space stations and suns and defiantly not a ship to ship fight.

Correct. However, in ROTJ we see ships engaging eachother at thousands of kilometers from the Emperor's throneroom. (And need I remind you that the Novelization, as well as some of Lando's statements in the movie say that this was considered 'point blank' range?)


No, it doesn’t play. I’ll try again later on another pc.

A pity. It basically shows all the time that trek misses. It's quite a few and certainly not 'perfect accuracy.' The Feds' targeting software must have been designed by Beavers.


We see craters, but you guys want lava etc.

We see craters that are semi-consistent with megaton level explosions. If thirty percent of the planet's crust was really destroyed, we *would* see lava, or actually molten-hot ejecta.

Was that the episode were they were brainwashed in thinking the Federation was at war?

No, I don't think so.



And how about the effective energy? Maybe 90% is lost as heat.

Two things: First, where is that 90% inefficiency coming from? Back it up please.

Second, if the reactor is producing that much energy (in addition to shields, weapons etc) then it doesn't matteri f some of it is being lost as waste heat from the engines, since they can just cut the engines and put all that power into guns and shields.


That’s more like 70% destroyed, not 30% or more..

It's more in line with any amount of crust being destroyed than the oddly colored explosions we see in TDiC.


So the planet the DS destroyed was made of titanium or something but not rock?

No, the DS works via directly transferring energy to the target, overwhelming a planet's gravitational binding energy with brute force. The DS doesn't work via some stupid NDF reaction like the bioships.

Anyway, it is about the time and amount they destroyed in that ST scene.

...Except that it relied on a NDF reaction, so it's useless as a determination against Wars vessels which are far different, metallurgically than a planet.


More to come.

*Yawn* I hope we'll get your arguements instead of Darkstar's this time.

Done, apologies for the bad quoting.

No problem. Mistakes happen.

That would be nice but the general working would be good too.

In the Thrawn trilogy cloaks work as a double blind, hiding you from sensors but blinding your own as well. The fancy ones that Palpatine uses for his shuttle are single blind and allow your sensors to work while hiding you. Cloaked ships can be detected with sophisticated gravity scanners. This is likely required as the cloak somehow blocks normal grav sensors.

Actually, I used 500 megatons as a midway between the 496 megatons from Voy and the 507.55 megatons from TNG. 496/200 = 2.48 (I should have mentioned that.)

Yes you should have mentioned that. And I'm still waiting for evidence that those yields actually are ~500 megatons when double digit kilotons is displayed far more often,


Indeed, non canon. My figures come from episodes and are canon.

Which you have yet to prove are the ~500 megaton yields you claim.

It was stated in Voy, seen in both TNG and DS9 but that’s not enough for you?

No, it isn't. Show your proof, how you derived at the yields you claim, or concede.

And thereby providing an upper limit.

No, you stated the energy required to destroy 30% of the crust and claimed that as the yield for a Trek weapon. You can't treat a fleet bombardment as a single weapon yield.

I don’t see a flash but a crater.

I am reffering to thishttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/Xessmithia/skinevil3.jpg

That flash isn't the fireball it's the bright light produced by the explosion. And since I doubt the flash lasted for more than a second that puts the yield at around 35 kilotons, which I got from stardestroyer.net's Nuclear Effects Calculator. Not to mention the anti-matter in the shuttle messing up the yield.

As Brian Young says:
When Trinity was detonated, the light was so bright, that it could blind you from 10 miles away. Trinity was about 20 kilotons. In 1909, when an asteroid crashed into the Tunguska River in Siberia, it leveled trees for hundreds of square miles, and it lit up the sky in England. The impact has been estimated at about 2 megatons. What we see in "Skin of Evil" is the intense light produced, not the blast radius.

All the images from the show are good for is telling us that the blast was orders of magnitude less intense than the Tunguska impact, which lit up the sky a quarter of a planet away.

If you're talking about some other incident please show your work.

True, but a M/AM reaction produces more energy than a fusion reaction.

Yes, if you annhilate 1 kg of anti-matter you would get more energy than if you fused 1 kg of hydrogen. But a 100 kT yield is a 100 kT yield whether it was an anti-matter warhead or a fusion warhead.


And the crater when there’s a bigger explosion.

It would have to be a massive and fast energy release to crater super-conductive armour. I point you here (http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/ISDHTL.mov)
to see that super-conductive armor in action. The ISD glows red when struck by the Rebel HTLs before being obliterated.



To give SW a chance.

SW would curb stomp ST even with your overestimated yieds. Weaking yourself just makes it just that much more of a cake walk.


You don’t read what I post? I showed to you that there are, it is even stated on screen, what more do you want?

I want you to show me your work proving your yields from evidence that I haven't already refuted.


It is a maximum range for the Falcon.

The Falcon hits the TIEs in the DS trench from far greater range than 204 meters. Dorkstar is wrong yet again.

That would mostly be planets, space stations and suns and defiantly not a ship to ship fight.

The longest effective range for a c speed beam weapon is about 1 light-second. That however doesn't change that SW guns can target things from 10 light minutes away or that point-blank range is hundreds of km or that Trek ships close to within 5 km for fleet battles.




No, it doesn’t play. I’ll try again later on another pc.

Good, because it shows that Trek accuracy isn't as cracked up as you think it is.


We see craters, but you guys want lava etc.

Yes, because if the crust was undergoing significant damage we would see lava and red hot molten ejecta.

And all I see is big brown clouds, no craters. Point them out, use Paint or something to do it. It's easy.


2 meters long that is, so the frontal size would be the same.

Which means the torpedo will only fit in the shaft if is fired from directly above, and no ship would survive that attack because of the surface turbolasers.


Was that the episode were they were brainwashed in thinking the Federation was at war?

Even if it was how would thinking the Federation is at war change the fact that lasers were considered a thread to the ship?

And how about the effective energy? Maybe 90% is lost as heat.

Since the engines act as a heat sink by hurling out relatavistic plasma the figure stands.


That’s more like 70% destroyed, not 30% or more..

Doesn't matter, if it were 30% of the crust destroyed we would see about 30% of the surface looking like that. Instead we get some weird NDF related brown puffy clouds.


So the planet the DS destroyed was made of titanium or something but not rock?

No, the DS destroyed Alderaan by pumping 1e38 Joules into with a directed energy weapon.

Anyway, it is about the time and amount they destroyed in that ST scene.

This site (http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/wmd.html#phasers) deals with phaser firepower better than me.


More to come.

If it's anything like what you've post so far I'm not going to hold my breath.

Are you going to reply HC Eredivisie?

Ready for me to ask some stupid questions?

If you can see the Enterprise or Star Destroyer or whatever, then light can pass through the shields the shields they have and so both could surely be hit by lasers?

If a Star Destroyer has so much power, why do they need a Death Star to blow up planets?

Perhaps both Star Wars and Star Trek occur in universes where plot trumps science?

If you can see the Enterprise or Star Destroyer or whatever, then light can pass through the shields the shields they have and so both could surely be hit by lasers?
It's a case of plot over science ;) Normal photons can go through fine, but the shields can block the harmful stuff. Just nod your head and accept it :D

If a Star Destroyer has so much power, why do they need a Death Star to blow up planets?
Planets have shields that can protect it from bombardment. Even the regional shields protecting Echo Base on Hoth protected it from the firepower of the Executor and 5-6 ISDs. The Death Star can go through planetary shields like a sword through a paper bag.

Are you going to reply HC Eredivisie?

I do believe we scared the little Trekkie off.

I do believe we scared the little Trekkie off.

It would seem that way.

Oh and HC, I take that as a concession on all points.