NationStates Jolt Archive

Who wins?
The USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-E or an Imperial class star destroyer?

I saw the Sovereign class vessel or Big-E in this case.

The star destroyers seem to have weak shields as fighters have little problems taking them ouy. YOu basically just hit the huge spheres atop the bridge. They also are armed with lasers. Lasers are encountered in Star Trek: Enterprise. They are treated as inferior weapons when put up against phasers in Star Trek.

Now lets look at a Sovereign class starship. They have heavy shielding that would have no problem with lasers. They also are armed with phasers, which would have no problem against the weak shields of a SD. In addition to that, they also would be able to penetrate the hulls. Quantum and photon torpedoes are also superior to any SD weapon, especially with the anti-matter photon torps have.

The one thing a SD has going for it is its bulk. It takes a lot of firepower to do much damage to the hull, that is if you are aiming for the hull. A single quantum torpedo to the bridge would likely destroy the ship as an A-wing colliding with the bridge destroyed the ship. Imagine what a spread of torpedoes or directed phaser fire would do.

The only reason the A-Wing was able to do that to the bridge was because the one of the shield generators got knocked out. If the fighter had delayed just a second, nothing would have happened, because the shields would have been diverted to protect the bridge. Also, I doubt the Enterprise could stand up against a full barrage of an Imperial Class Star Destroyer. It is also notable that Star Destroyers have proton torpedo launchers, not to mention a large amount of fighter ships.

Imagine what a spread of torpedoes or directed phaser fire would do.

I imagine it would probably litter the floor of the chroma-blue studio with lots of little bits of painted plastic and styrofoam. And probably leave a smell of ozone and sulphur.

Hopefully the camera lens wouldn't get any debris flung directly at it in the process. Then everybody would go on break, drink coffee and smoke a doob.

The only reason the A-Wing was able to do that to the bridge was because the one of the shield generators got knocked out. If the fighter had delayed just a second, nothing would have happened, because the shields would have been diverted to protect the bridge. Also, I doubt the Enterprise could stand up against a full barrage of an Imperial Class Star Destroyer. It is also notable that Star Destroyers have proton torpedo launchers, not to mention a large amount of fighter ships.
The tie fighters would barely nip at the shields. People think that the Star destroyer wins as it is larger. Star Destroyers are at 900 m and the ENterprise is 700 m so size isn't that different. The Enterprise's runabouts would do more damage than the tie fighters since they can be armed with quantum torpedoes. THe Imperial CLass Star Destroyer is armed with lasers. Lasers are crap compared to phasers. They wouldn't begin to punch through the shields. The point on the A-wing still stands. The shield generator was knocked out easily. A few quantums would do the job and then 1 more would kill the ship easier than the A-wing did.

Yeah, the shielding is prioritised for larger ships attacking it. Also, were we to allow the full compliments of gear on each vessel, those SDs can hold six flights of TIEs, compared to the Enterprise's what, five pokey shuttles?

Not to mention all that space in the Enterprise devoted to recreation and non-military activity.

I was involved in this arguement way back in middle school and it went unresolved for a year, then we realized that it was pointless.

i pick asgard ships from Stargate series

Yeah, the shielding is prioritised for larger ships attacking it. Also, were we to allow the full compliments of gear on each vessel, those SDs can hold six flights of TIEs, compared to the Enterprise's what, five pokey shuttles?

Not to mention all that space in the Enterprise devoted to recreation and non-military activity.

How many TIEs in a 'flight'?

No no no! Those "little spheres" are really sensor arrays, they have nothing to do with the shielding, despite what the X-Wing series of games (purposely weakened and nerfed to make people feel like good pilots) and the impression you may get from Return of the Jedi (the explosion of the sensor array right before they announce shields are gone) the shields are NOT weak on the Star Destroyers. In fact, the shields would have had to have been gone for the fighters to even be able to hit the sensor arrays, showing that the shields had already failed (and this was due to the bombardment of the much larger Calamari cruisers, not a squadron of backwater fighters).

The Star Destroyer would win.

-Tomás, Chairman of Gran Atlac

THe problem with the "Lasers don't hurt the Enterprise" theory is that the weapons used in Star Wars, while called Lasers, are clearly show not to be. The easiest way to explain how this is true is that you can see the energy blasts used in the SW Universe, you can't see lasers unless something hits them, and in the dead of space, you shouldn't be able to see them at all.

The site, stardestroyer.net pretty conclusively proves the Enterprise would lose against a Star Destroyer within seconds. I would suggest you check it out, Mike Wong might be a bit militant about some things, but it is hard to defeat his conclusions.

How many TIEs in a 'flight'?
12, but they only have weak lasers that wouldn't touch the Sovereign's shields. Besides, a single phaser blast would kill them. The phaser arrays allow you to shoot dozens of beams at once in different directions or concentrate one real powerful one at 1 target. Within seconds, the phaser array would target each unshielded and weak tie fighter in a divided beam and kill them all.

How many TIEs in a 'flight'?

Afaik, a SD holds 6 squadrons of TIES, and a squadron in SW usually consisting of twelve fighters, that means 72 fighters. Usually a Bomber squadron, a recon squadron, and four fighter squadrons. This is using the X-wing series of books and the X-win games, which are not the highest canon, so I might be wrong.

12, but they only have weak lasers that wouldn't touch the Sovereign's shields. Besides, a single phaser blast would kill them. The phaser arrays allow you to shoot dozens of beams at once in different directions or concentrate one real powerful one at 1 target. Within seconds, the phaser array would target each unshielded and weak tie fighter in a divided beam and kill them all.

First, I've already shown that TIES do not use lasers, also, the Empire does not use fighters to fight other cap ships, that only appears in the X-wing games (precisely for gaming reasons) and the Aaron Allston universe.

But to digress into a little sci-fi bit.

I'd say a star destroyer wins for severals reasons. First the ship is not only equipped with tie fighters, but bombers blastboats and various other such things. It has in addition to it's turbolaser complement an ion cannon complement that is equal in number. As such an SD would be able to pour fire into the shields of the Enterprise at a surprising rate. And you underrate the shields and the weapons, espescially if we're dealing with an Imperal II Star Destroyer which has beefed up shields, weapons and fighters.

The turbolasers on the SD are not what we'd actually call lasers. They are an energy beam that is to be sure, but they are not composed of light, but superheated charged particles. They have more in common with plasma weapons than modern lasers.

ps, when the A-Wing busted up the super star destoyer it only damaged the bridge and knocked it out of control. It didn' actually destroy the bridge, just cause sufficient chaos for emergency control teams to not be able to regain control before the Executor crashed into the Death Star.

Star Destroyers are 1,608 meters long. They have a wing of 72 TIEs aboard (48 TIE/In, 12 Interceptors, 12 Bombers). They have ion cannons, which can disable shielding and other electronic devices, and, as previously stated, proton torpedos. A proton tordeo is a small thermonuclear missle, maybe 1/2 a megaton, tops.

The standard TIE/In has no shielding and a pair of high-powered, rapid-fire lasers in front of the cockpit sphere. The Interceptor model has 2 additional lasers and more poweful sublight engines. The Bomber has the standard 2 lasers, plus a load of proton bombs (real life equivelant: bunker busters) and laser-guided concussion missles (real life equivelant: Sparrow missiles).

It is true that the standard ISD is slow, but its highly-powerful shields don;t hurt. It takes a good amount of turbolaser fire just to lower them for a few seconds. Speaking of guns, the ISD has a good number of TURBOlasers, which are a hell of a lot stronger than normal starfighter lasers. Not to mention ion cannons and tractor beams, so they could disable the target, hold it in place, and pound it with proton torpedos and concussion missiles.

It's be a tough fight, but I think the Star Destroyer would win. Now if it was an Executor-class Super Star Destroyer... That's a completely different story. ;)

The SSD is 11 miles long, and has more than twice the number of guns and fighters. Plus, a whole legion of Stormtroopers, who, contrary to the movies, are really good a kicking ass.

THe problem with the "Lasers don't hurt the Enterprise" theory is that the weapons used in Star Wars, while called Lasers, are clearly show not to be. The easiest way to explain how this is true is that you can see the energy blasts used in the SW Universe, you can't see lasers unless something hits them, and in the dead of space, you shouldn't be able to see them at all.

They're plasma cannons, I believe.

And of course an ISD would demolish the Enterprise. They're 1.6km long, by the way. Not 900m.

Oh and one "flight" of TIEs is roughly 72.

Bye bye, Enterprise.

If anyone wants to know that those bulbous pods are, they are sensor stations. After the one on Executor is lost, the Bridge does not have a the necessary sensors to target and defend the bridge from incoming threats, hence why the ordr is given to intensify forward firepower, to make up for hte loss of the targeting array. We already saw Ackbar order fire to be concentrated on the SSD, so it's shields can be presumed to be down or seriously damaged, with the entire Alliance fleet firing at it. So the A-wing got through the shields, and with the bridge turbolasers defences gone, it crashes into the Bridge. And the SSD is pulled down into the Executor without it's command and control, because the secondary bridge did not have time to stablize the ship.

12, but they only have weak lasers that wouldn't touch the Sovereign's shields. Besides, a single phaser blast would kill them. The phaser arrays allow you to shoot dozens of beams at once in different directions or concentrate one real powerful one at 1 target. Within seconds, the phaser array would target each unshielded and weak tie fighter in a divided beam and kill them all.

Hmm, the TIEs are shown to quite speedy, and nearly omni-maneouvreable, though... think back to TOS - "Journey To Babel" - it's not the Enterprise-E, but there has been established a less-than ideal capacity for Federation ships to deal with ships travelling at inordinately fast speeds in local space.

Not that I'm necessarily siding with the SW side of the argument, you understand, I am quite an old fan of ST: TOS, however.

The only real advantage the Enterprise has is its transporter technology, but since that requires the shields of a vessel to be down, it is highly unlikely they will get to use it.

[img=http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7932/comparisson4iv.th.jpg] (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparisson4iv.jpg)

/The standard TIE/In has no shielding/

Actually, the TIEs DO have shielding, it's a common misconception (through the X-Wing games, novels, etc, all from the point of view of REBEL pilots) that the Imperial Pilots are basically thrown out there to die. This doesn't make any sense, even for the Empire, as those pilots are expensive, those craft are expensive, etc. Also, through the movies you can see where shields come up (I believe at the end of ANH when the TIE crashes into Darth's TIE you can see shields pop up) and it would be suicidal to be travelling at hundreds of thousands of kilometers per hour, through space (with rocks, debris, etc) and NOT have shielding, as any tiny piece of rock could smash through and kill instantly.

I'd also like to point out that a TIE Interceptor has 10 cannons on it... Each one has 10 cannons.

-Tomás

[img=http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7932/comparisson4iv.th.jpg] (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparisson4iv.jpg)
wrong enterprise.

While on the subject, who wins? Borg cube or SD?

/The standard TIE/In has no shielding/

Actually, the TIEs DO have shielding, it's a common misconception (through the X-Wing games, novels, etc, all from the point of view of REBEL pilots) that the Imperial Pilots are basically thrown out there to die. This doesn't make any sense, even for the Empire, as those pilots are expensive, those craft are expensive, etc. Also, through the movies you can see where shields come up (I believe at the end of ANH when the TIE crashes into Darth's TIE you can see shields pop up) and it would be suicidal to be travelling at hundreds of thousands of kilometers per hour, through space (with rocks, debris, etc) and NOT have shielding, as any tiny piece of rock could smash through and kill instantly.

I'd also like to point out that a TIE Interceptor has 10 cannons on it... Each one has 10 cannons.

-Tomás

Actually, canon sources prove that the TIEs do not have shields. Darth's TIE did have shields, as did the TIE Defender, but Interceptors and Fighters did not, neither did bombers. I don't know if the novelizations clearly state this, and the movies don't, so I'm pretty sure it's the canon level below that (A Lucas cross sections book), so unless you have film or novelization evidence to prove that they do, you're out of luck, no matter how obscene any idea might be.

wrong enterprise.

While on the subject, who wins? Borg cube or SD?

Which Borg, the original ones first encountered, or the pussy Voyager version.

/While on the subject, who wins? Borg cube or SD?/

In the novels it's established that an Imperator Star Destroyer (on its own) has the capability to turn the entire crust of a planet to melted moosh. There's some code for this, but meh. It shows the kind of firepower it has, tho.

I am not, however, a fan at all of the novels (not that I've even read them, I just disregard them out of hand, usually) so if you choose to ignore that it's fine by me ;)

-Tomás

I would say the Imperial Star Destroyer. The turbolasers can destroy a large asteroid in one blash almost instantaneously with little to no leftover residue. The Sovereign-class ship shielding, to make a joke, "can't repel firepower of that magnitude" (Star Wars RotJ reference if you didn't get it)

The domes on Star Destroyers are sensor arrays, as a few others have mentioned. It's merely a coincidence that Ackbar announced the shields were down after the explosion of one of the domes was shown, and there is no correlation between the two. Also, if what I've read is canon, Star Wars shielding does not protect against projectiles which could be seen as another reason the A-wing was so easily able to destroy the Executor's bridge.

This is a debate that should have died long ago. It is, of course, the Trekkies who continue to beat upon this dead horse.

Star Destroyers are so much more powerful than Federation ships, that a fight between them would be like a fight between a modern destroyer and an ancient Greek trireme. There would be no contest.

Why? Look at the scale. The territories of the Federation barely span one quadrant of the Milky Way; the Galactic Empire is simply that - galactic. It spans an entire galaxy and getting from one side to the other is not only something people can do, they do it fairly regularly in the Star Wars universe. Voyager took how many years to get back now? From another quadrant?

For information on why a turbolaser battery would frag a Federation ship in one salvo, go here:
http://stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html

However, I think a much more interesting fight would be between a Halo universe vessel and a Star Destroyer; i.e. a Covenant cruiser or the Pillar of Autumn versus an ISD. The POA and the ISD, IIRC, are about the same size. Considering that the POA is also only a cruiser, awherease the Empire's ISD is a battleship, one must wonder just how large and powerful the UNSC capital ships actually are.

wrong enterprise.

While on the subject, who wins? Borg cube or SD?

Depends on whether Wars weapons and shields are frequency-based or not. If they aren't, the Borg Cube isn't going to fare any better against an ISD than the footsoldiers fared against Picard's machine gun in Star Trek: Return of the Nazi Vampire Zombies.

The ISD's TIE's would quickly neutralize the shuttles from the Enterprise and then begin taking shots at the engines and bridge, which are ridiculously exposed on all of the NCC starships. One salvo of 24 concussion missiles from a squadron of TIE Bombers to one of the nacelles would probably be enough to cause the warp core to be shut down. Meanwhile, the other TIE's, especially the Interceptors, would easily avoid all fire from the Enterprise, as its weapons are not designed to be targeted on small, fast moving, highly maneuvreable craft. They would fly close to it and attack the phasers and torpedo launchers, as well as the bridge. The Star Destroyer itself would probably take a few shots, but could easily redirect power from the sheilds on the side not facing the Enterprise to compensate for the power losses from any Phaser hits. The Heavy Turbolaser and Ion Cannon batteries would pound away at the sheild until it came down and then, bye-bye. A full broadside of Turbolasers, Ion Cannons and Proton Torpedos would probably knock the nacelles completely off.

/While on the subject, who wins? Borg cube or SD?/

In the novels it's established that an Imperator Star Destroyer (on its own) has the capability to turn the entire crust of a planet to melted moosh. There's some code for this, but meh. It shows the kind of firepower it has, tho.


Base Delta Zero. BDZ.

ISD beats the Cube with its hands tied behind its back.

/Actually, canon sources prove that the TIEs do not have shields./

Well...

The only CANON sources are the movies themselves and the novelizations of the movies. The other novels, Cross-Sections, etc, are only "official", but are overruled in any case of disagreement with the movies. So, the canon sources don't prove anything (they're iffy at best). But enough of semantics...

The Incredible Cross-Sections DOES explicitly state that TIEs lack shields, hyperdrive and life-support systems. Again, though, this is simply impossible to be taken literally, and I bring up the tiny pebble killing the pilot again. What it COULD mean, though, is that it doesn't have military shields (like the difference between a bird-strike resistant windshield on a Cessna and a bulletproof window on a military aircraft).

-Tomás

The tie fighters would barely nip at the shields. People think that the Star destroyer wins as it is larger.

And stronger, and faster, and carries support craft.......

Star Destroyers are at 900 m and the ENterprise is 700 m so size isn't that different.

Even if your numbers weren't off, that still doesn't account for the disparity in sheilding and weapons.

The Enterprise's runabouts would do more damage than the tie fighters since they can be armed with quantum torpedoes.

And when has a Federation pilot shown the ability to match the manueverability of a TIE? Runabouts are transprts, not dedicated fighters.

THe Imperial CLass Star Destroyer is armed with lasers.

No. Its some sort of beam energy weapon as many have already pointed out.

Federation tactics are crap

Fixed that for you

compared to phasers.

And you know this because.....

They wouldn't begin to punch through the shields.

Lets comparte firepower real quick

In order to destroy a single asteroid, a Sovereign class requires its full payload of torpedos

An ISD only needs a single burst from a turbolaser canon

The point on the A-wing still stands.

Yes, the point people made about why you were wrong

The shield generator was knocked out easily.

Easily? The entire Rebel fleet was hammering on the SSD.

A few quantums would do the job and then 1 more would kill the ship easier than the A-wing did.

An ISD can go head to head with an asteroid and shake it off and keep on going. A Fed ship will have to empty its entire payload just to get through the sheilds. Do you really think the Feds will have that much time?

/Actually, canon sources prove that the TIEs do not have shields./

Well...

The only CANON sources are the movies themselves and the novelizations of the movies. The other novels, Cross-Sections, etc, are only "official", but are overruled in any case of disagreement with the movies. So, the canon sources don't prove anything (they're iffy at best). But enough of semantics...

The Incredible Cross-Sections DOES explicitly state that TIEs lack shields, hyperdrive and life-support systems. Again, though, this is simply impossible to be taken literally, and I bring up the tiny pebble killing the pilot again. What it COULD mean, though, is that it doesn't have military shields (like the difference between a bird-strike resistant windshield on a Cessna and a bulletproof window on a military aircraft).

-Tomás

Actually, according to Lucasfilm, the ICS books ARE Canon, albeit a lower level of canon that is superceded by the movies and anything Lucas himself states. You can check out this at Stardestroyer.net if you would like.

Y'know, to be honest, I think the old original-series Enterprise could have, under the right circumstances, taken out a SD. It's not a question of brute force or tech - it's a question of tactics.

The outcome of the battle would depend greatly on who was commanding the Enterprise. In the case of Kirk, I'd make it one chance in four he could defeat the SD, but ten to one he'd destroy Enterprise in the process. Spock would skirmish and lose, but not so badly he couldn't limp semi-safely back to the nearest Starbase, Imperials in tow; Sulu would cream the TIEs, but get smushed like a bug; Chekov would get injured and end up in Sickbay. The single greatest person to command the ship against a SD? Scotty. Put Scotty in for Kirk and I don't care what the SDs have got under the hood, Scotty has a better than average chance of crippling the SD critically, while still getting a good portion of the Enterprise crew to safety. After all, it was his pride and joy. And he was Scotty. Miracle worker.

/Also, if what I've read is canon, Star Wars shielding does not protect against projectiles which could be seen as another reason the A-wing was so easily able to destroy the Executor's bridge./

WEll, there're two types of shielding: particle and ray shielding. Ray shielding prevents energy-type stuff (and apparently proton torpedos) and particle shielding prevents little pebbles from going through and smashing the pilot's skull open (like the TIEs simply MUST have :p)

-Tomás

/Base Delta Zero. BDZ./

Thx :)

-Tomás

Captain Tagge of the HIMS Fearless looked passively out the forward viewport, it was a boring day. He was about to turn to check the crew pit when a few flashes caught his eye, he looked more intently and saw a ship zooming around his own. "Commander what is that ship doing?'

"I believe it's attacking us sir."

"Oh? Take it out guns" The Fearless let loose a broadside and a single medium turbolaser impaced the strange looking ship which was instantly replaced by a puff of expanding plasma.

Captain Tagge frowned, hardly the excitement his gunners would have liked, but he shrugged, "Commander I'm thirst go get my my afternoon tea."

"Very good sir." The commander replied and Tagge turned back to looking out the window on this boring day.

/Actually, according to Lucasfilm, the ICS books ARE Canon, albeit a lower level of canon that is superceded by the movies and anything Lucas himself states. You can check out this at Stardestroyer.net if you would like./

nnno.

/The STAR WARS films are the only primary reference. With the exception of only a few minor points, they are indisputable. This is not a merely personal opinion; it is the explicit policy of the Continuity and Production Editors at Lucasfilm. They are interviewed in STAR WARS Insider #23:

What's 'gospel' and what isn't?
'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology.

Any other form of unfilmed STAR WARS fiction may be official, meaning that it is subordinate to canon and is required to be consistent with other official works/ (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html)

They're not canon, only official. Nothing is canon but the listed things above.

-Tomás

/Captain Tagge of the HIMS Fearless looked passively out the forward viewport, it was a boring day. He was about to turn to check the crew pit when a few flashes caught his eye, he looked more intently and saw a ship zooming around his own. "Commander what is that ship doing?'

"I believe it's attacking us sir."

"Oh? Take it out guns" The Fearless let loose a broadside and a single medium turbolaser impaced the strange looking ship which was instantly replaced by a puff of expanding plasma.

Captain Tagge frowned, hardly the excitement his gunners would have liked, but he shrugged, "Commander I'm thirst go get my my afternoon tea."

"Very good sir." The commander replied and Tagge turned back to looking out the window on this boring day./

LOL, exactly!

-Tomás

[They also are armed with lasers. Lasers are encountered in Star Trek: Enterprise. They are treated as inferior weapons when put up against phasers in Star Trek.

Star Destroyers also are armed with Ion Cannons which would disable any ship against it. Thus, the weakly armored federation ship would lose shields, tracking systems, laser charges, and the star destroyer could lay waste to it. Also, the star destroyer carries full squadres of TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, and TIE Bombers, which would totally destroy the Star Trek ship, since in Star Trek, fighters are not used.

Well, It seems the greater population of NS agrees that Star Destroyers would win.
Star Trek fans don’t feel bad. The Galactic Empire exists in a society that is incredibly advanced. Meanwhile, the Federation exists at some point in the relative near future (not sure when, never saw anything Star Trek related).

Actually, canon sources prove that the TIEs do not have shields. Darth's TIE did have shields, as did the TIE Defender, but Interceptors and Fighters did not, neither did bombers. I don't know if the novelizations clearly state this, and the movies don't, so I'm pretty sure it's the canon level below that (A Lucas cross sections book), so unless you have film or novelization evidence to prove that they do, you're out of luck, no matter how obscene any idea might be.

Goddamn burden of proof! If you make a claim that cannon supports something, provide the quote or screenshot, and an interpretation of it, that backs up your point.

To the contrary, canon and official sources both proove that TIEs do have at least low-power shields for common flight, if not combat shielding.

1- in The Bacta War, TIE/Interceptors are not damaged by small arms fire. In no official source to my knowledge has a TIE ever been seriously damaged by small arms.

2- TIEs are easily capable of atmospheric flight, including re-entry, without damage, and, furthermore, remain aerodynamic enough to be on par with the far-more-aerodynamic, and shielded, X-Wings.

3- Ion engines of tremendous power are used in Star Wars. This means superheated particals traveling at almost the speed of light being ejected from the back of starships. This is supported by a passage in Dark Force Rising wherein Mara Jade uses thrusters (rather than repulsorlifts) to make an emergiency landing to save her craft, and a few seconds' burst heats the rock shelve she is trying to land on to red-hot. TIEs routinely fly scant meters away from the engines of enemy craft. This requires something more than a transparisteel cockpit plate. (The strength of transparisteel is shown fairly often to be not that great; most notably in ROTS when Grevious breaks a plate of it to escape from his star ship.).

All TIE craft mount low-grade shields to some degree. The difference between their shields and those of combat-shielded craft is only a matter of degree. It is not unlikely that many TIEs assigned to critical assignments (most notibly the Death Star in ANH) may have mounted shielding.

As far as is accepted, SW canon encompasses a lot more than just the movies, as could be normally accepted. Lucas himself stated SW was more than just the movies, just that the movies stood at the top of the pyramid of Star Wars. for quick reference, the canon list goes like this IIRC (it's not complete, In the Jedi Council area of SW.com there is a more comprehensive discussion of this)

Anything Lucas says
Movies
Any interpretation of the movies (Novelizations, radiodramas)
Any book directly tied to the movies (Incredible Cross Sections is an example, Labyrinth of Evil is not)
After that it gets kinda foggy, since other books come after this, but not all do, since some are just ignored. Like one book says Coruscant is not all-city, and has oceans. Even before seeing Coruscant on film which refutes this, since the author was public about his moral problems with a city-planet, this was generally thought not to be canon.

The ICSes and other DK books are on the same level as the novelizations, radio dramas and screenplays Gran.

In order from highest to lowest canon:
- the movies
- Novelizations, radio dramas, screen plays, DK books including the ICSes and ITWs
- The rest of the EU
- Non-canon Infinities

And stronger, and faster, and carries support craft.......



Even if your numbers weren't off, that still doesn't account for the disparity in sheilding and weapons.



And when has a Federation pilot shown the ability to match the manueverability of a TIE? Runabouts are transprts, not dedicated fighters.



No. Its some sort of beam energy weapon as many have already pointed out.



Fixed that for you



And you know this because.....



Lets comparte firepower real quick

In order to destroy a single asteroid, a Sovereign class requires its full payload of torpedos

An ISD only needs a single burst from a turbolaser canon



Yes, the point people made about why you were wrong



Easily? The entire Rebel fleet was hammering on the SSD.



An ISD can go head to head with an asteroid and shake it off and keep on going. A Fed ship will have to empty its entire payload just to get through the sheilds. Do you really think the Feds will have that much time?

Well I dont really give much about this debate, as its been debated way to many times for my taste.

but. that would be incorrect. As far as it takes a Sovergin class ship a whole payload of torpedos to destory an astoird.
The Empire Strikes back astroid was pretty tiny.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise234.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise638.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise654.jpg


Looks like the ISD isnt the only one that can destoy a rock.

Goddamn burden of proof! If you make a claim that cannon supports something, provide the quote or screenshot, and an interpretation of it, that backs up your point.

To the contrary, canon and official sources both proove that TIEs do have at least low-power shields for common flight, if not combat shielding.

I can see them having some sort of low power shields, though not for fighting at all, similar to the ST navigational shields. But as I said, Incredible Cross Sections does state they don't have shields, and is canon evidence above The Bacta War and any other novelization or generalization unless shown in the movies, or stated in a novelization.

Well, It seems the greater population of NS agrees that Star Destroyers would win.
Star Trek fans don’t feel bad. The Galactic Empire exists in a society that is incredibly advanced. Meanwhile, the Federation exists at some point in the relative near future (not sure when, never saw anything Star Trek related).

And Holodecks are cool. When it comes to personal entertainement features, spacious hotel-room quarters, uniforms that can double as pajamas, and having instant access to any snack in the galaxy, I'll take the Sovreign any day.

Anything Lucas says
Movies
Any interpretation of the movies (Novelizations, radiodramas)
Any book directly tied to the movies (Incredible Cross Sections is an example, Labyrinth of Evil is not)
After that it gets kinda foggy, since other books come after this, but not all do, since some are just ignored. Like one book says Coruscant is not all-city, and has oceans. Even before seeing Coruscant on film which refutes this, since the author was public about his moral problems with a city-planet, this was generally thought not to be canon.

Anything Lucas says is overridden by the movies if they disagree. Coruscant is all city as has been shown consistently throughout the SW universe.

Edit: Ignore the Coruscant remark, I misread your post.

/The ICSes and other DK books are on the same level as the novelizations, radio dramas and screenplays Gran./

Says who? Just as a note, the guy from the site I got that info from WROTE the second, third (and I assume fouth, if there is one) ICS books. You think if he was doing canon stuff he'd let his friend know about it ;)

-Tomás

Anything Lucas says is overridden by the movies if they disagree. Coruscant is all city as has been shown consistently throughout the SW universe.

Really, I thought Lucas as creator took precedence, guess I was wrong.

I can see them having some sort of low power shields, though not for fighting at all, similar to the ST navigational shields. But as I said, Incredible Cross Sections does state they don't have shields, and is canon evidence above The Bacta War and any other novelization or generalization unless shown in the movies, or stated in a novelization.

If you won't accept the degree of evidence so far, I guess I can calculate the amount of power required to accelerate a mass equal to a modern airplane (very, VERY lower estimate) at the insane rates shown in the movies (going from surface to deep space in a matter of seconds, etc) and present that as a conservative lower limit to TIE Fighter shield strength. But I don't want to, so it would be very nice if you would conceed now...

Well I dont really give much about this debate, as its been debated way to many times for my taste.

but. that would be incorrect. As far as it takes a Sovergin class ship a whole payload of torpedos to destory an astoird.
The Empire Strikes back astroid was pretty tiny.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise234.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise638.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise654.jpg


Looks like the ISD isnt the only one that can destoy a rock.


Which asteroid in ESB? They were in an entire field just plowing their way through. They just flicked them off, instead of emotying all their torpedos into it.

Starfleet officer: We have a ship incoming, Captain.
Starfleet Captain: On Viewer.
Starfleet helmsman: Look at the size of that thing.
Starfleet Sensors officer: They're firing!!!
Starfleet Captain: Damn. Why don't we raise our shields BEFORE we hail.
--------

If you won't accept the degree of evidence so far, I guess I can calculate the amount of power required to accelerate a mass equal to a modern airplane (very, VERY lower estimate) at the insane rates shown in the movies (going from surface to deep space in a matter of seconds, etc) and present that as a conservative lower limit to TIE Fighter shield strength. But I don't want to, so it would be very nice if you would conceed now...

Ignoring the fact that Canon sources specifically say they don't have shields (and not specifically any shields, just shields) I have already conceded it is possible they have some sort of shield, but most definitely not one that can be used to deflect a weapon on par with thier own. Further we are never shown aexactly what type of endurance the materials that create a TIE can withstand, so just because anything we have might not be able to withstand that, doesn't mean it can't. And this does not refute your point (though the Canon source does, but whatever)

Well I dont really give much about this debate, as its been debated way to many times for my taste.

but. that would be incorrect. As far as it takes a Sovergin class ship a whole payload of torpedos to destory an astoird.
The Empire Strikes back astroid was pretty tiny.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise234.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise638.jpg
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Series/VOY/Rise654.jpg


Looks like the ISD isnt the only one that can destoy a rock.

Fragmentation << Vaporisation.

/The ICSes and other DK books are on the same level as the novelizations, radio dramas and screenplays Gran./

Says who? Just as a note, the guy from the site I got that info from WROTE the second, third (and I assume fouth, if there is one) ICS books. You think if he was doing canon stuff he'd let his friend know about it ;)

-Tomás

I believe it's either Leland Chee or someone Sansweet.

As I said, the movies are the ultimate canon, G-level, if something that used to be lower canon is put into one of the movies it becomes G-level.

Then there is C-level which includes everything else including the novelizations and Dk books. The novelizations, screen plays, radio dramas and DK books are at the top of this level while the rest of the EU is lower than them.

Finally there is N-level, which is non-canon. Comics marked with the Infinity logo are in this level.

Go Captain Kirk!

Ignoring the fact that Canon sources specifically say they don't have shields (and not specifically any shields, just shields) I have already conceded it is possible they have some sort of shield, but most definitely not one that can be used to deflect a weapon on par with thier own. Further we are never shown aexactly what type of endurance the materials that create a TIE can withstand, so just because anything we have might not be able to withstand that, doesn't mean it can't. And this does not refute your point (though the Canon source does, but whatever)

Watch ANH when the Falcon is escaping the Death Star. When you see the MF shoot and miss the TIEs and see a bright blue/white flash where the laser went that's a shield interaction. G-level canon that TIEs have shields.

Scotty on the bridge of the original Enterprise pwnz Star Destroyer + entire flight of TIEs.

Watch ANH when the Falcon is escaping the Death Star. When you see the MF shoot and miss the TIEs and see a bright blue/white flash where the laser went that's a shield interaction. G-level canon that TIEs have shields.

Mind finding me a screenshot? Posting bla would certainly be easier than the amount of typing I have done on the topic so far...

Think of the weakness of the Enterprise's construction though. All a SD has to do is concentrate its superior number of weapons on the struts holdig those rediculous engines to the ship and suddenly boom, the big-E becomes the big-T (Target - hahah. Don't laugh.)

Seriously, I understand what you're saying, but lets think for a moment. All of the disadvantages of the SD are the same as those of the Enterprise (target bridge to cripple the ship) or offset by the SD's own strengths (uber-big numbers of fighters/turrets and great hull armor) or the Enterprise's weaknesses (No/Very few fighters and a really pathetic design for a warship). I give them an even shot against eachother - unless the Sd swoops in from above the Enterprise's bridge (eliminating the Enterprise's chance of a bridge shot), in which case the SD wins hands-down.

Mind finding me a screenshot? Posting bla would certainly be easier than the amount of typing I have done on the topic so far...

Working on that myself right now, the only other theory I can think of if tihs does appear is it is a laser firing over the camera shot, but since I haven't watched the scene yet (still trying to find ANH), I can't prove it yet.

Working on that myself right now, the only other theory I can think of if tihs does appear is it is a laser firing over the camera shot, but since I haven't watched the scene yet (still trying to find ANH), I can't prove it yet.

I'll try watching that patch of the movie; can't take screenies though unfortunately.

The comp I'm on doesn't play DVD's, so that's out, and my DVD player's remote is destroyed, so I can't go frame by frame, so I have to get my damn PS2 to work, this could be hard.

/As I said, the movies are the ultimate canon, G-level, if something that used to be lower canon is put into one of the movies it becomes G-level./

I see now that they have changed their system. Before it was canon, official, apocrypha, but now canon = G-Canon, official = C-Canon, and apocrypha = N-Canon. Going with this system, G-Canon sources (the movies) show they have shields, and override the ICS books were are C-Canon.

/G-canon is absolute canon; the movies, the scripts, the novelizations of the movies,and the radio plays. G-canon always overides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe; SW books, comics, and games. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay are N-canon.

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm./

http://www.answers.com/topic/star-wars-canon

Also, as a blanket statement to everybody, it's not an IMPERIAL Class Star Destroyer, it's an IMPERATOR Class Star Destroyer (like a Los Angeles Class Attack Submarine) or an Imperial star destroyer (like an American submarine). The first ISD was the Imperator, and all others of its class are named accordingly. You would never call something an American-CLASS sumbarine unless the first ship were called the American, and it's the same with the ISDs. :)

-Tomás

According the ROTS:ICS the ISD was renamed from Imperator-class to Imperial-class after the Jedi purge.

/According the ROTS:ICS the ISD was renamed from Imperator-class to Imperial-class after the Jedi purge./

Hahaha! God, I'm glad they're done with the movies, they're making them worse and worse as they go on! Covering up their mistakes now ;)

(I don't have that book yet, btw)

-Tomás

After watching the scene again, at a glance it appears they do have shields (or were hit by glances, but I'm not even going to open that can of worms), however, lacking frame by frame at the moment, I'm witholding my judgement.

The comp I'm on doesn't play DVD's, so that's out, and my DVD player's remote is destroyed, so I can't go frame by frame, so I have to get my damn PS2 to work, this could be hard.

Well, I watched the scene you were speaking of. The 3rd and 4th TIE both are struck on shields at least four times before the Falcon scores a direct hit and destroys them. Very cool.

EDIT: including several times when the shot isn't even on the fighter, but between the two wings.

That significantly alters our perception of TIEs a lot. But the ISD would still defeat the Enterprise.

Galactic Class Battlestar Beats them both at the same time (teleports behind one, blasts it with hot lead from cannon broadside ~ it's shields being useless against that ~ Enterprise and Star Destroyer go bye - bye, one by one )

Big stinking, old fashioned iron armor will likely come in useful as well ...

:D

Dr. Who for the win. :)

Galactic Class Battlestar Beats them both at the same time (teleports behind one, blasts it with hot lead from cannon broadside ~ it's shields being useless against that ~ Enterprise and Star Destroyer go bye - bye, one by one )

Big stinking, old fashioned iron armor will likely come in useful as well ...

:D

I'm not familar with battlestar weapons, but it would seem you are saying that a solid object fired at an ISD or Starfleet vessel will destroy it. Watch Empire Strikes Back again, an asteriod is seen clearly hitting a Star Destroyer, and it doesn't have any visible effect. SW ships are not only ray-shielded.

Posted By: Arizona Nova
"However, I think a much more interesting fight would be between a Halo universe vessel and a Star Destroyer; i.e. a Covenant cruiser or the Pillar of Autumn versus an ISD. The POA and the ISD, IIRC, are about the same size. Considering that the POA is also only a cruiser, awherease the Empire's ISD is a battleship, one must wonder just how large and powerful the UNSC capital ships actually are."

Now that's a battle I'd love to see. The POA is quite a beast even though it's a small for it's designation.

"Halcyon-class ships were the smallest vessel ever to receive the cruiser designation. It is approximately one-third the tonnage of the Marathon-class cruiser currently in service."- Halo: The Fall of Reach, p.238

Throw in a MAC gun that shoots three successive rounds, (One round was usually enough too take out a Covenant capital ship's shields) Captain Keyes was a brilliant tactician, Cortana the A.I. did all of the aiming of the MAC guns so they were super-accurate, the 6 archer missile pods, the anti-aircraft guns, the Longsword fighters armed with Shiva nukes, the large number of marines and ODST's, the POA had a very,very string hull, and oh, some guy named John 117.
*Drools*

Posted By: Arizona Nova
"However, I think a much more interesting fight would be between a Halo universe vessel and a Star Destroyer; i.e. a Covenant cruiser or the Pillar of Autumn versus an ISD. The POA and the ISD, IIRC, are about the same size. Considering that the POA is also only a cruiser, awherease the Empire's ISD is a battleship, one must wonder just how large and powerful the UNSC capital ships actually are."

Now that's a battle I'd love to see. The POA is quite a beast even though it's a small for it's designation.

"Halcyon-class ships were the smallest vessel ever to receive the cruiser designation. It is approximately one-third the tonnage of the Marathon-class cruiser currently in service."- Halo: The Fall of Reach, p.238

Throw in a MAC gun that shoots three successive rounds, (One round was usually enough too take out a Covenant capital ship's shields) Captain Keyes was a brilliant tactician, Cortana the A.I. did all of the aiming of the MAC guns so they were super-accurate, the 6 archer missile pods, the anti-aircraft guns, the Longsword fighters armed with Shiva nukes, the large number of marines and ODST's, the POA had a very,very string hull, and oh, some guy named John 117.
*Drools*


The PoA, while massive, doesn't have enough firepower to seriously hurt an ISD. A Covenant ship would have better luck but would still lose out in the end.

Posted By: Arizona Nova
"However, I think a much more interesting fight would be between a Halo universe vessel and a Star Destroyer; i.e. a Covenant cruiser or the Pillar of Autumn versus an ISD. The POA and the ISD, IIRC, are about the same size. Considering that the POA is also only a cruiser, awherease the Empire's ISD is a battleship, one must wonder just how large and powerful the UNSC capital ships actually are."

Now that's a battle I'd love to see. The POA is quite a beast even though it's a small for it's designation.

"Halcyon-class ships were the smallest vessel ever to receive the cruiser designation. It is approximately one-third the tonnage of the Marathon-class cruiser currently in service."- Halo: The Fall of Reach, p.238

Throw in a MAC gun that shoots three successive rounds, (One round was usually enough too take out a Covenant capital ship's shields) Captain Keyes was a brilliant tactician, Cortana the A.I. did all of the aiming of the MAC guns so they were super-accurate, the 6 archer missile pods, the anti-aircraft guns, the Longsword fighters armed with Shiva nukes, the large number of marines and ODST's, the POA had a very,very string hull, and oh, some guy named John 117.
*Drools*

Any stated or derived numbers for firepower, shield strenth, and linear acceleration for the Halo ships?

Galactic Class Battlestar Beats them both at the same time (teleports behind one, blasts it with hot lead from cannon broadside ~ it's shields being useless against that ~ Enterprise and Star Destroyer go bye - bye, one by one )

Big stinking, old fashioned iron armor will likely come in useful as well ...

:D

Unless those railguns can put out teratons of energy they won't be hurting the ISD through its shields.

On armor, since the 20-year old Acclamtor class transport can take a direct hit from a fusion warhead and just be scorched I don't see the ISD being damaged by a few projectiles even with shields down.

Yeah, the Star Destroyer would probably take out the POA quickly just because of it's shielding and the fact that the POA really has only one or two things that could do any amount of damage to the SD. (nukes or the MAC gun)

"Any stated or derived numbers for firepower, shield strenth, and linear acceleration for the Halo ships?"

Yes, there are some in the books, let me check...

Any stated or derived numbers for firepower, shield strenth, and linear acceleration for the Halo ships?

Super-MAC guns can shoot a 3000 ton projectile at .4c, the book says "point four tenths" which is .04c but since that's nonsensical it is likely a typo. That puts it at 5 teratons, an Acclamator's shields are rated at 16 teratons/second so it most certainly won't hurt an ISD. Those planet buster nukes that the UNSC has could take one out though(as could anything that could bust a planet)

Covenant ships have gigaton-teraton range firepower as they can glass the surface of a planet. They're closer to an ISD firepower wise but I think the ISD tops them out. Their shields strength is also in the GT-TT range.

Their linear accelerations are at least 1000G.

Yeah, the Star Destroyer would probably take out the POA quickly just because of it's shielding and the fact that the POA really has only one or two things that could do any amount of damage to the SD. (nukes or the MAC gun)

If the HaloVerse weaponry is on the same level as modern nuclear weapons (in the megatonne range), there is no hope for them against Star Wars warships except in very, very large numbers.

Yeah, the Star Destroyer would probably take out the POA quickly just because of it's shielding and the fact that the POA really has only one or two things that could do any amount of damage to the SD. (nukes or the MAC gun)

Super-MAC guns can't take down an ISD. The much weaker shipboard weapons have no chance at all.

Super-MAC guns can shoot a 3000 ton projectile at .4c, the book says "point four tenths" which is .04c but since that's nonsensical it is likely a typo. That puts it at 5 teratons, an Acclamator's shields are rated at 16 teratons/second so it most certainly won't hurt an ISD. Those planet buster nukes that the UNSC has could take one out though(as could anything that could bust a planet)

Covenant ships have gigaton-teraton range firepower as they can glass the surface of a planet. They're closer to an ISD firepower wise but I think the ISD tops them out. Their shields strength is also in the GT-TT range.

Their linear accelerations are at least 1000G.

If the HaloVerse warships mount multiple MAC guns (specifically, more than 5) they likely outgun an Acclamator in terms of single volley firepower.

Alternately, if warships routinely carry weapons capable of fragmenting a planet (as you seem to be describing), they are orders of magnitude more powerful than anything short of a full-blown Super Star Destroyer.


EDIT: Any numbers on rate of fire and number of cannons for the MAC?

EDIT 2: That's using .04c for the warhead, not .4, so half a TT, not 5 TT. Acclamator heavy turbolasers are rated around 200GT/shot if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT one too many: Any numbers on faster-than-light speeds for the Haloverse?

Star Destroyers are 1,608 meters long. They have a wing of 72 TIEs aboard (48 TIE/In, 12 Interceptors, 12 Bombers). They have ion cannons, which can disable shielding and other electronic devices, and, as previously stated, proton torpedos. A proton tordeo is a small thermonuclear missle, maybe 1/2 a megaton, tops.

The standard TIE/In has no shielding and a pair of high-powered, rapid-fire lasers in front of the cockpit sphere. The Interceptor model has 2 additional lasers and more poweful sublight engines. The Bomber has the standard 2 lasers, plus a load of proton bombs (real life equivelant: bunker busters) and laser-guided concussion missles (real life equivelant: Sparrow missiles).

It is true that the standard ISD is slow, but its highly-powerful shields don;t hurt. It takes a good amount of turbolaser fire just to lower them for a few seconds. Speaking of guns, the ISD has a good number of TURBOlasers, which are a hell of a lot stronger than normal starfighter lasers. Not to mention ion cannons and tractor beams, so they could disable the target, hold it in place, and pound it with proton torpedos and concussion missiles.

It's be a tough fight, but I think the Star Destroyer would win. Now if it was an Executor-class Super Star Destroyer... That's a completely different story. ;)

The SSD is 11 miles long, and has more than twice the number of guns and fighters. Plus, a whole legion of Stormtroopers, who, contrary to the movies, are really good a kicking ass.


TIE Interceptors actually are armed with 10 laser cannons, not 4.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/tie.html#tiei

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/diagram/tie/tieint-lc.jpg

There were several times where human ships, by either luck or great tactics beat Covie ship(s) that were much more advanced them. But those are rare occasions, so I'll shut up. :)

TIE Interceptors actually are armed with 10 laser cannons, not 4.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/tie.html#tiei

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/diagram/tie/tieint-lc.jpg


Only modified ones do, the standard is 4.

10 or 4 doesn't really matter, unless there is a rediculously low maximum amount of energy you can ram through a cannon before it burns itsself out. Unless you built a better reactor for the TIE, the amount of energy per second shot by the guns will be the same. You only get an advantage in redundancy and rate of fire (possibly useful against soft targets?)

Wow this went from slightly nerdy, age-old argument to full blown nerdcore tech panel. Even for sci-fi geeks like myself, looking at this is like a martian looking at a christian v non-christian debate like "what the fuck are they talknig about," and I don't mean the "omg yo uare sinner you are gonig to hell" forum arguments, I mean at least slightly civil with relative attempts at "proof" from either side

I'm not familar with battlestar weapons, but it would seem you are saying that a solid object fired at an ISD or Starfleet vessel will destroy it. Watch Empire Strikes Back again, an asteriod is seen clearly hitting a Star Destroyer, and it doesn't have any visible effect. SW ships are not only ray-shielded.

If it had no effect, they wouldn't have wanted to hurry up and get out of the asteroid field....

If it had no effect, they wouldn't have wanted to hurry up and get out of the asteroid field....

I said no visible effect. It is probable that the multiple impacts were wearing on thier shields, or armor, and that they would not be able to indefinitely stay in the asteriod field. But it does show that SW ships do have at least a strong defence against solid objects.

In Response to Feil:
Here are some stats on MAC guns. It says the MAC guns can reload at in five seconds butit doesn't say how long it takes to charge the shot. The Pillar of Autumn could fire three shots on a single charge.Stats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_cannon)

I said no visible effect. It is probable that the multiple impacts were wearing on thier shields, or armor, and that they would not be able to indefinitely stay in the asteriod field. But it does show that SW ships do have at least a strong defence against solid objects.

I see that entirely the opposite. They were dumbfounded when they were told to go in because they would be damaged, and, while there, they were having pieces of their ships torn off by the impacts and they would drift and wane and brace themselves from falling when hit.

Rocks were beating the heck out of them, but only on the surface and they were trying to blast the bigger rocks before they made contact...

I see that entirely the opposite. They were dumbfounded when they were told to go in because they would be damaged, and, while there, they were having pieces of their ships torn off by the impacts and they would drift and wane and brace themselves from falling when hit.

Rocks were beating the heck out of them, but only on the surface and they were trying to blast the bigger rocks before they made contact...

The evidence from the film seems to suggest otherwise, and I can not see any visible damage to the Executor or any other ship of the Death's Head Squadron after the asteriod scene. The novelization might say more about this, but I do not have it at the moment. They were blasting away at as many asteriods as possible, but they would be doing that anyway to prevent large ones from hitting the shields/armor and wearing down thier defences even further. But it is possible that you are right, since the film shows no definitive evidence, it is open to either interpretation, but it definitely shows they have some defence against solid objects.

The Sovereign, hands down.

It can move so fast it can not be tracked by the Star Destroyer, and can also fire weapons at these speeds too.

Also, "lasers" won't even get through the Sovereign's navigational reflectors, let alone shields.

There's no debate. Sorry Star Wars fans, you've been out fantasied.

You federation pussies would get schooled. The Imperial military machine has much more vicious, well-trained, violent types than morally constrained star trek characters. A boarding action would easily turn to the Imperial side, while small craft (dismissed as they have been) can be vital. TIE bombers pack a significant punch, while the shuttles would be easily overwhelmed by the number of TIE fighters.

We're also ignoring the point of ion cannons, which can knock out the power to these fancy phazers, as well as proton torpeodoes and concussion missiles. (And nobody has proved "photon" torpedoes to be any better than those.)

Man, we really are geeks, eh?

Man, we really are geeks, eh?

Yes. Yes we are.

You're forgetting that Warp 3 is 27 times the speed of light.

The fastest ship in Star Wars goes .5 past the speed of light.

No one in Star Wars could possibly know the Trekkies were coming. None of the fighters or bombers could possibly catch them, and the Enterprise (or any other fed ship) could simply destroy them all without anyone knowing anything of their existance.

There's no hope for the Star Destroyer. Or ANY Star Wars ship.

/The fastest ship in Star Wars goes .5 past the speed of light./

I assume this is a reference to the Millenium Falcon. You're misunderstanding the (very confused) system they have. The ships go faster with the SMALLER numbers. I don't know what they mean, but .7 is a standard hyperspace speed, while .5 is very fast. It's not 1.5c or anything like that.

Oh, also I refer to the previous post about the size of the Galatic Empire (yeah, GALACTIC) compared to the Federation which takes years to get from one end of one quadrant to the other. Don't even try to pretend ST is faster ;)

-Tomás

You federation pussies would get schooled. The Imperial military machine has much more vicious, well-trained, violent types than morally constrained star trek characters. A boarding action would easily turn to the Imperial side, while small craft (dismissed as they have been) can be vital. TIE bombers pack a significant punch, while the shuttles would be easily overwhelmed by the number of TIE fighters.

We're also ignoring the point of ion cannons, which can knock out the power to these fancy phazers, as well as proton torpeodoes and concussion missiles. (And nobody has proved "photon" torpedoes to be any better than those.)

Man, we really are geeks, eh?

Don't underestimate the power of Federation starships. A single ship in the Star Trek universe is capable of rendering a planet uninhabitable. In other words, they can do the same thing the Death Star can, only the planet is still in one piece.

".5 past light speed" isn't 1.5c any more than warp 10 is 10c. It's a logarithmic scale. Hyperspace traverses the galaxy in hours, days, or weeks (the clearest example being in ANH, where the Falcon goes from the rim (Tatooine) to the core (Aldaraan) in a matter of hours, suggesting speeds in the order of 100,000c to 100,000,000c.

I believe this is the time for you to restate your opening point more loudly, in hopes that it will convince me that you really, really, REALLY, REALLY ARE RIGHT.

/Don't underestimate the power of Federation starships. A single ship in the Star Trek universe is capable of rendering a planet uninhabitable. In other words, they can do the same thing the Death Star can, only the planet is still in one piece./

I refer you to my post about the ISD and "Base Delta Zero" (melting the crust of a planet). So yeah, the ISD can do that, too. :)

-Tomás

Even if the Turbolasers are just "lasers" there are Ion cannons. These things dont disable shields, they GO RIGHT THROUGH THEM. Aside from completely disabling a ship they also do some surface damage.

lets see, a Corellian Gunship which is a tenth the size of a SD has Ion cannons.

Now a Federation ship might can take on a Dreadnaught.

As far as a SD's shields go. Fighters can't pass through them, period. They never try, because the shields fry the fighters systems.

Ehm...
Rendering a planet uninhabitable is nothing special. A Trek ship, or wars ship, or a ship from 2001-a space Odyssey could manage it. Just get a large object and drop it on the planet. A comet or large asteroid would do nicely.

/The fastest ship in Star Wars goes .5 past the speed of light./

I assume this is a reference to the Millenium Falcon. You're misunderstanding the (very confused) system they have. The ships go faster with the SMALLER numbers. I don't know what they mean, but .7 is a standard hyperspace speed, while .5 is very fast. It's not 1.5c or anything like that.

Oh, also I refer to the previous post about the size of the Galatic Empire (yeah, GALACTIC) compared to the Federation which takes years to get from one end of one quadrant to the other. Don't even try to pretend ST is faster ;)

-Tomás

I guess I stand corrected about my point about speed. Still doesn't change the fact the Enterprise could beat an SD though.

These things dont disable shields, they GO RIGHT THROUGH THEM. Aside from completely disabling a ship they also do some surface damage.

Try hitting a ship that travels faster than the ion beam.

As far as I know, combat exists only in realspace with an ISD. Not so with a Fed ship.

Ok, yes a Federation ship can destroy a Star Destroyer. An X-Wing could destroy a Star Destroyer, but that doesn't mean it would happen in a million years. The odds are like a million to one.

The Enterprise could do it, but it would need a miracle. Literally a miracle.

/The fastest ship in Star Wars goes .5 past the speed of light./
Oh, also I refer to the previous post about the size of the Galatic Empire (yeah, GALACTIC) compared to the Federation which takes years to get from one end of one quadrant to the other. Don't even try to pretend ST is faster ;)

-Tomás

Now I can point to an inaccuracy in the Star Trek universe in my defense. Warp X means different speeds in different episodes. In some, it's only 900 x light speed. In others, it's 9 billion.

Did no one read the lasers thing? We've already been over how SW lasers are not lasers, at least read the damn thread before posting. It's pretty conclusive that the SD would completely demolish the Enterprise within a matter of seconds.

As for fed ships traveling fast, I've never seen them do this in combat. In all the battles I've seen, they don't seem to be traveling all that fast at all, certainly not blinding speeds that would render a targeting computer inoperable at. More like the speeds snubfighters fly at, and those are easily targeting by turbolasers (not the DS ones, which were optimized against Capital ships, and couldn't traverse fast enough).

I guess I stand corrected about my point about speed. Still doesn't change the fact the Enterprise could beat an SD though.



Try hitting a ship that travels faster than the ion beam.

As far as I know, combat exists only in realspace with an ISD. Not so with a Fed ship.

Show me an example of a federation vessel that was traveling at warp conducting attacks on a starship that was not traveling at warp.

Ok, yes a Federation ship can destroy a Star Destroyer. An X-Wing could destroy a Star Destroyer, but that doesn't mean it would happen in a million years. The odds are like a million to one.

The Enterprise could do it, but it would need a miracle. Literally a miracle.

You sure? Knock out the shield gens, energise some boom-booms in the reactor core . . .

You sure? Knock out the shield gens, energise some boom-booms in the reactor core . . .

Its knocking out the shield generators that is the problem, or the fact that transporters do have a limited range, so you have to get insanely close to an SD to do this, and considering all the firepower it can throw at you I wouldn't want too. Not even taking into account that Imperial ships tend to travel in groups, or can be easily reinforced in a matter of hours.

ion cannons for the win

notice in ESB 2 direct hits from an ion canon on Hoth disable an ISD long enough to let the transport and escorts through

imagine dozens of such weapons firing on the Enterprise, how can you contest the result?

Now I can point to an inaccuracy in the Star Trek universe in my defense. Warp X means different speeds in different episodes. In some, it's only 900 x light speed. In others, it's 9 billion.

Ahem... 9 billion c would cross the galaxy in a mater of seconds, and circumnavigate the known universe in roughly five years.

Now I can point to an inaccuracy in the Star Trek universe in my defense. Warp X means different speeds in different episodes. In some, it's only 900 x light speed. In others, it's 9 billion.

Nevertheless, it takes Voyager, a ship that appears to be one of Starfleet's fastest several decades to traverse from one quadrant to another. It took Anakin and Obi-Wan andmatter of hours to return from the Outer Rim (remember, Anakin says they never would have been brought back from the Sieges if the Chancellor had not been kidnapped) to the Core (since Coruscant is always stated near the very Core of the Galaxy). This feat is repeated again on the Coruscant to Mustafar trips.

Double post

I guess I stand corrected about my point about speed. Still doesn't change the fact the Enterprise could beat an SD though.

You fail to say how


Try hitting a ship that travels faster than the ion beam.

It's called targeting and leading

As far as I know, combat exists only in realspace with an ISD. Not so with a Fed ship.

Have you ever seen Federation accuracy, even in realspace, watch Insurrection, they can't even hit ships not too far away that are larger than them.

How can you compare fantasy with science fiction?? How about Gandalf against this Star Trek shipclass?
Crazy guys.

How can you compare fantasy with science fiction?? How about Gandalf against this Star Trek shipclass?
Crazy guys.

Mostly because the only fantasy part of Star Wars is the force, which is not represented in any of this discussion, therefore it is almost purely sci-fi.

What a pointless argument.

Now, really, a better fight would be a protoss carrier versus either one of these. An ISD would probably take out one carrier, but one carrier probably costs considerably less than a friggin ISD.

Thats where we get into two options for the protoss, at equal price. A protoss fleet, with arbiters, scouts, and corsairs, which would win(Stasis field as soon as battle started... Everyone gets in position, and when the statis field goes out, the invisible fleet starts pounding the ISD in key areas. They would have to take out the arbiter(or multiple), before attacking any other vehicles. By the time they managed to do all that, it would be dead.

The second option, of course, is mass carriers. Not to be cliche, but mass carriers equals instant win. These carriers carry huge numbers of interceptors(dont only judge by the game. In the SC universe, Battlecruisers carry multiple wings of wraiths, etc. I will look in the books for numbers, but as far as I can tell, it would be at least in the triple digits of interceptors), can take hits from yamato cannons(directed nuclear blasts), etc. The Carriers would take signifigant punishment, but concentrated fire on specific targets would take out the ISD before it took out all of the carriers, most likely.

Show me an example of a federation vessel that was traveling at warp conducting attacks on a starship that was not traveling at warp.

The TNG episode "Unification, Part 2".

The Romulans are shipping troops to Vulcan, and the transports are moving at Warp 3 (maybe four). When Spock and Picard warn everyone, the Romulan escort ships destroy the transports. The transports never slowed down. While this is not a case of a starship attacking a non-warp ship, they're capable of hitting a ship in warp while they are also in warp. This also brings up the contradiction of firing a beam that travels the speed of light (phasers) while going past the speed of light. Wouldn't you hit yourself?

As for the ion cannons, the Enterprise travels faster than the beams do. A hit is still possible, yes, but not likely at all.

As for the speed, it's a contradiction in the Star Trek universe. There are plenty, plenty more.

Mostly because the only fantasy part of Star Wars is the force, which is not represented in any of this discussion, therefore it is almost purely sci-fi.


I guess you don't know much about Star Wars.

I guess you don't know much about Star Wars.

What other elements are fantasy rather than sci-fi than that relate to this geekfest?

It is the time it takes place, one is in the future the other one is in the past. One is with the planet earth the other has nothing to do with it. So in some ways there are no humans beeings in star wars but all would be aliens for us. Because we just call human beeings what comes from planet earth.

It is the time it takes place, one is in the future the other one is in the past.

So is Saving Private Ryan fantasy?

Ond is with the planet earth the other has nothing to do with it.

A lot of science fiction has nothing to do with Earth, and a lot of Fantasy is based on Earth.

So in some ways there are no humans beeings in star wars but all would be aliens for us. Because we just call human beeings what comes from planet earth.

Since when did sci-fi have to include human beings, and since when did anything without them make it fantasy. Is LOTR not fantasy because it has humans.



Beyond the point that none of the things you mentioned relate to the discussion

In fact, Sci-Fi is technically fantasy, just smart fantasy. I provide my proof, from dictionary.com

science fiction
n.
A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

Speculative scientific discovieres - FTL travel, several gigaton weapons, space travel, energy weapons

Enviromental changes - Different planets, not Earth as we know it

Space travel - Do I even have to

Forms part of the plot or background- Star Wars

How can you compare fantasy with science fiction?? How about Gandalf against this Star Trek shipclass?
Crazy guys.

Because both are quantifyable, whether fantasy, science fiction, or effing porn. If it is quantifyable and predictable, it can be compared to something else which is quantifyable and predictable. Neither side is claiming that Darth Vader would be on the Star Destroyer, or that Q would be helping the federation. Both sides have left behind their fantasy elements, except for you, who is sitting there saying ZOMG! Star Wars is teh science-FANTASY and Star Trek is science-FACT!!! OMFG Teh WArp Drive is soo paossioble and phazors make 400GIGA-joules of power! Read Teh Pizics of Star Trek!! It explains all!.

Ahem.


EDIT:
Fantasy elements of Star Wars:
1 Follows mythic theme and includes symbols from various earth myths.
2 Takes place in a semi-mythic setting--long ago and far away, but in space, unlike the traditional grounded placement of myths.
3 The Force-half-heartedly explained as being scientifically explicable (medi-clorians[sic]), but magic, nonetheless.
Fantasy Points: 3

Fantasy elements of Star Trek:
1 Gods, supernatural monsters, and Spirits exist, though they are usually half-heartedly explained as "evolved beings" or "interdimentional beings"
2 Special powers exist, notably Vulcan and Betazed mind control and telepathy
3 Borg used to be cyborgs, but by First Contact had changed into zombies, albiet ones with technological explanations.
4 Blatantly violations of biology-interbreeding between species, and "halflings".
5 Genetic determinism. All Klingons are honor-bound and violent, all elves love peace and beauty and are great warriors when pressed, all vulcans are logical, all orcs are violent, stupid, and bloodthirsty.
6 People metamorphasize into beings with superpowers without all that troublesome evolution in between. Examples- Wesley Crusher, the Traveller, that guy who turns into a yellow glowie thing and heals people.
Fantasy points: 6

besides you don't really read my posts but just quote them, there is no real discussion anyways.

You can get every book into another column if you want it.

The writer and/or publisher meant to make a fantasy and not a science fiction and therefore it is fantasy.

In Star Trek there also exist overnatural things so why isn't it fantasy?

James Ryan takes place on earth, most fantasy stories take place on another planet. A Science fiction has to be somehow linked with earth and these human beeings, that already did live there in our past and present.

Gah. Star Wars tech has a half-million years on Star Trek tech and about 100 trillion times as much battle experience (check the population, check the amount of time they had FTL. For both Star Wars AND Star Trek.)

I wouldn't be surprised of the Falcon scuttled the Enterprise-E; a Star Destroyer would do it in a walk.

Not that it matters terribly much, being as their physics are less than compatible with each other and the real world, but still.

besides you don't really read my posts but just quote them, there is no real discussion anyways.

Ok.

You can get every book into another column if you want it.

Or want to put it in the right place

The writer and/or publisher meant to make a fantasy and not a science fiction and therefore it is fantasy.

Except that we have removed the fantasy elements

In Star Trek there also exist overnatural things so why isn't it fantasy?

Because of the definition I provided above, the existence of one does not make it fantasy, since the story is usually not bending around it, but it is instead just something thrown in for a good plot. SW on the other hand has the unique ability of revolving around a supernatural force (the Force), but one that can be removed, leaving you with a similar thing to Trek.

James Ryan takes place on earth, most fantasy stories take place on another planet. A Science fiction has to be somehow linked with earth and these human beeings, that already did live there in our past and present.

Why does it have to be linked to Earth? Technically it is linked to Earth, as the presence of Human beings suggest either they are our descendants in another galaxy (it takes place a long time ago, unlikely), or we are the spawn of a lost exploration ship or something, so there, I linked it to Earth, but I still don't see the reason it had to be to be science fiction.

Ok.
Except that we have removed the fantasy elements


That's disgusting, you can't remove something out of a book and still call it that book or bind it somehow with that story and history. ;-)

That's disgusting, you can't remove something out of a book and still call it that book or bind it somehow with that story and history. ;-)

so sue us

That's disgusting, you can't remove something out of a book and still call it that book or bind it somehow with that story and history. ;-)

If that's true, than the Trekkies will just trump the Q effect.

In order for any debate possible, Q must be removed.

No you know what I meant, you all were discussing technical issues of the ships that is bound to the book, removing the ship out of the context there won't be these details you were referring to.

What is meant to be a laser at one book could have another name at the other one.

;-)

No you know what I meant, you all were discussing technical issues of the ships that is bound to the book, removing the ship out of the context there won't be these details you were referring to.
;-)

True. There are far too many contradictions in the Star Trek universe alone to count, which clearly puts everything out of context. I can't even name most of the Star Wars ones.

I can see Picard now...

"Ramming SPEED!"
"Sir.. ur ship?!"
"Its ok, there's an entire alphabet that awaits..."

(however I do believe a SD would win)

No you know what I meant, you all were discussing technical issues of the ships that is bound to the book, removing the ship out of the context there won't be these details you were referring to.

What is meant to be a laser at one book could have another name at the other one.

;-)

I don't think removing the Force or Q from the present equation screws it up, since neither is reliant on these mystical things. But fine, even if we put them back in, it still stands that the ISD kicks the E-E's ass, since the Q are highly unlikely to intervene, since they never do when anyone needs them too.

Regardless of what may be another name, we can tell by viewing the movies or shows (which is how we get all our estimations and figures, aside from things like ICS) that clearly the SW lasers are not lasers. Lasers in SW do not behave in the manner actual lasers do, therefore they are not true lasers, the kind that the EE can just shrug off.

Except for the existence of the Force, which for all we know exists in the ST universe but has not been discovered to use, they both appear to follow the same laws governing physics since they both inhabit the same Universe (a galaxy far far away, not in another dimension or world).

Everyone here is missing the point.

Enterprise = Goodie.
Star Destroyer = Baddie.

It's obvious who'll win, regardless of firepower, speed, fighters, shields or the phase of the moon...

Show me an example of a federation vessel that was traveling at warp conducting attacks on a starship that was not traveling at warp.On an episode of DS9, the Defiant went at warp speed to catch up to and destroy a shuttle that was not going warp speed. The Defiant fired its first and only shot as it was coming out of warp speed, meaning the front of the ship looked normal but the back still looked a little distorted.

Everyone here is missing the point.

Enterprise = Goodie.
Star Destroyer = Baddie.

It's obvious who'll win, regardless of firepower, speed, fighters, shields or the phase of the moon...


A ship can't be good or bad, it's just a ship. ;-)

In forums dominated by Trekkies, the Sovereign wins. In forums dominated by... erm... Warsies, the Star Destroyer wins. How do I know this? This same pointless debate about non-existent ships has raged on web forums since the dawn of the internet... and guess what? No-one's ever agreed on a victor!

A ship can't be good or bad, it's just a ship. ;-)

:p
;)

Carriers are good.

Everyone here is missing the point.

Enterprise = Goodie.
Star Destroyer = Baddie.

It's obvious who'll win, regardless of firepower, speed, fighters, shields or the phase of the moon...

Best post in the entire history of this pointless debate. :D

probably would be the star destroyer.
Just think tactics.
What does the stardestroyer captain do when they encounter something new? they blow the crap out of it. What would the federation do? let's try and talk until our shield have nearly colapsedl, and then only aim for the weapons and engines. :rolleyes:

The MSC-07 Albion would wreak damage on both of 'em. C'mon, two Mega Particle Cannons can't go wrong here, as well as the amazing mobile suits it carries

what About the Super Star Destoyer? can That come into play?

The Charr: That's why you have to be objective. And objectively SW tech is vastly superior to ST tech. The ISD curbstomps the E-R.

On Warp Strafing: No federation ship has attacked a ship that's not in warp while its self is in warp. Federation ships can fight other ships in warp or drop out of warp attack then go back to warp (Long range Picard Maneuver)

Miscelaneus:
ISDs have FTL sensors and could detect the federation ships at warp.

Turbolasers are not lasers. They are composed of exotic massless particles that are not photons.

Hyperdrive speed is on the order of millions of times c.

Trek ships are not immune to lasers, saying they are is a No Limits Falacy. In "The Outrageous Okona" episode Picard is refering to weak lasers on the primitive space ships they were facing not lasers in general. In other episodes lasers have been deemed a threat, also the Borg use cutting lasers to slice up the Enterprise-D in "Q Who?".

Super-MAC guns are the huge ass guns orbiting Earth in Halo 2. At .4c a 3000 ton (3e6 kg) projectile has a yield of 5.14 teratons. Shipboard guns are much weaker.

In forums dominated by Trekkies, the Sovereign wins. In forums dominated by... erm... Warsies, the Star Destroyer wins. How do I know this? This same pointless debate about non-existent ships has raged on web forums since the dawn of the internet... and guess what? No-one's ever agreed on a victor!


I must take exception to this. ISD vs. Enterprise/Macross/whatever has been around on the internet since long before this newfangled Web nonsense.

Everyone here is missing the point.

Enterprise = Goodie.
Star Destroyer = Baddie.

It's obvious who'll win, regardless of firepower, speed, fighters, shields or the phase of the moon...

Would you care to explain how John McClane from Die Hard would defeat Galactus from the Silver Surfer comics, then? The good guys always win because they fight bad guys they are the equal of. There is no way that McClane could use his cunning to defeat and enemy who can destroy planets. There is no way Bambi could disable Megalith from Ace Combat 4. It's just a weak get-out.

There's also a strange level of anthropomorphism going on here. Equipment is not 'good' or 'bad;' would you also argue that a Sherman tank would defeat a King Tiger in one-one one combat in an open field because the King Tiger is 'evil?' That a Soviet-era MiG-29 would have no chance against a Sopworth Camel? That the battleship Yamato would easily be defeated against Nelson's fleet at Trafalgar?

The way I see it is that, correct me if I'm wrong, the only things located on the bottom of the Star Destroyer only contains three four things, the Tie Fighter bays, the main Hanger Bay, the Main Tractor Beam, and the Auxiliary Tractor Beams. So, if the Enterprise Captain could get his vessel below the Star Destroyer and position it abaft, like positioning a vessel so only the Iowa's abaft the beam cannons can fire on you; because three guns shooting at you is better than nine; it will be much easier for the Enterprise to pound away at the Star Destroyer.

Everyone here is missing the point.

Enterprise = Goodie.
Star Destroyer = Baddie.

It's obvious who'll win, regardless of firepower, speed, fighters, shields or the phase of the moon...

Exactly.


Plus, a whole legion of Stormtroopers, who, contrary to the movies, are really good a kicking ass.

Are you saying the films themselves are not canon? Because in the movies they suck in all most all instances, except in company strength or greater.

The way I see it is that, correct me if I'm wrong, the only things located on the bottom of the Star Destroyer only contains three four things, the Tie Fighter bays, the main Hanger Bay, the Main Tractor Beam, and the Auxiliary Tractor Beams. So, if the Enterprise Captain could get his vessel below the Star Destroyer and position it abaft, like positioning a vessel so only the Iowa's abaft the beam cannons can fire on you; because three guns shooting at you is better than nine; it will be much easier for the Enterprise to pound away at the Star Destroyer.

Yeah, 'cause the Captain of the ISD is just going to sit there while a enemy ship attacks and won't roll the ship or anything like that :rolleyes:


Exactly.

See GMCMAs above post for why that claim is total bullshit.



Are you saying the films themselves are not canon? Because in the movies they suck in all most all instances, except in company strength or greater.

Let's see shall we:

ANH Tantive IV boarding: Stormtroopers kick the rebels ass.

ANH Death Star: Are under orders to not kill the heroes so that said heroes can lead Tarkin and Vader to the hidden rebel base.

ESB Battle of Hoth: Stormtroopers kick ass.

ESB Bespin: Are under orders from Vader to capture the heroes yet again.

ROTJ Endor: Are still under orders from Vader to capture the rebels. "Search the area and bring his companions to me." Is the quote or something to that effect.

And despite what you probably think, the Stormtroopers were slaughtering the Ewoks until Chewie got the AT-ST. And since we see camo troops in ROTS the Emperor wasn't too concerned with the Endor occupation force or the Stormtroopers would have had camo armor.

So as you can see if you're not an idiot; Stormtroopers kick ass and obey their orders to the letter.

I prefer my Star Destroyers. ;)
Now, Borg vs Death Star anyone?

Afaik, a SD holds 6 squadrons of TIES, and a squadron in SW usually consisting of twelve fighters, that means 72 fighters.

And to answer the original question, a "flight" is four starfighters: a squadron is divided into three flights. As established in the novels, which are all canon (contrary to Trek novels, which are not, all Star wars novels are canon).

Canon also repeatedly establishes that TIEs have no shields, except Defenders (which, to my knowledge, only appear in X-wing book 9: Isard's Revenge, not counting the games and maybe comics), and Vader's TIE in ANH. (Though as has been rightly pointed out, it's necessary to assume they've got particle shielding.)

As for the original debate, I prefer Star Trek to Star Wars by far, but it seems clear to me an ISD would defeat a Sovereign-class starship, simply because an ISD is designed to demolish everything it encounters, and has the necessary firepower to do so. Not to mention 72 starfighters, as has been pointed out. Starfleet's vessels are designed primarily for exploration purposes, although they put up a tough fight against most opponents (as established in VOY, where the Voyager is basically stronger than most alien ships it encounters).

I prefer my Star Destroyers. ;)
Now, Borg vs Death Star anyone?

*takes the bait* :D

Borg, easily. The Death Star can only fire once every half hour or so (so sayeth the novels; the Jedi Academy Trilogy, if memory serves). And if the Borg can swarm a planet, they can swarm a Death Star. :p

*takes the bait* :D

Borg, easily. The Death Star can only fire once every half hour or so (so sayeth the novels; the Jedi Academy Trilogy, if memory serves). And if the Borg can swarm a planet, they can swarm a Death Star. :p

Wasn't that Death Star I? The "uncompleted" DS2 fired far more rapidly in the ROTJ and if it is was completed - no shield generator on Endor required, then it would be a match.

Wasn't that Death Star I? The "uncompleted" DS2 fired far more rapidly in the ROTJ and if it is was completed - no shield generator on Endor required, then it would be a match.

We could always haul out the Eclipse-Class Star Destroyer.

*takes the bait* :D

Borg, easily. The Death Star can only fire once every half hour or so (so sayeth the novels; the Jedi Academy Trilogy, if memory serves). And if the Borg can swarm a planet, they can swarm a Death Star. :p


When the Borg went to conquer Earth, they brought a single ship. How long do you think thats going to last against a DS? Never mind the super laser. Think about the thousands upon thousands of turbolasers on the surface. And the suppost craft.

The Charr: That's why you have to be objective. And objectively SW tech is vastly superior to ST tech. The ISD curbstomps the E-R.

On Warp Strafing: No federation ship has attacked a ship that's not in warp while its self is in warp. Federation ships can fight other ships in warp or drop out of warp attack then go back to warp (Long range Picard Maneuver)


This is not evidence that they can't. I think a post above showed me showed that they once actually did in DS9.


Miscelaneus:
ISDs have FTL sensors and could detect the federation ships at warp.

True, but they still couldn't hit the Federation ship, because it travels faster than the Star Destroyer's weapons. Not to mention the range of the phasers greatly exceeds that of the turbo lasers, yet the phasers are both obviously weaker than turbo lasers and obviously stronger, depending on which Star Trek episode you're watching.

Turbolasers are not lasers. They are composed of exotic massless particles that are not photons.

True.

Hyperdrive speed is on the order of millions of times c.

True, as has been shown to me in this thread. But hyperspace is non-combatant. Warp speed is not.

Trek ships are not immune to lasers, saying they are is a No Limits Falacy. In "The Outrageous Okona" episode Picard is refering to weak lasers on the primitive space ships they were facing not lasers in general. In other episodes lasers have been deemed a threat, also the Borg use cutting lasers to slice up the Enterprise-D in "Q Who?".

Cutting lasers are probably no more "lasers" than the SD's turbolasers are.

Ship v ship, I still have to give it to the Enterprise. Faster combat speeds, much greater range (I think in the Manuals, photons can be launched from lightyears away, will look into this), and contradictory firepower lead me to give the Feds the upper hand in a one-on-one ship engagement.

In a war though, victory is impossible, because the Federation couldn't reach the Empire's space--meaning they would be on a 100% defensive war. In such war, victory is impossible.

When the Borg went to conquer Earth, they brought a single ship. How long do you think thats going to last against a DS? Never mind the super laser. Think about the thousands upon thousands of turbolasers on the surface. And the suppost craft.

The Borg ship is capable of launching its weapons from light years away, if what I recall in the Manuals are correct.

This is not evidence that they can't. I think a post above showed me showed that they once actually did in DS9.

We don't have to prove they can't. You have to prove they can. And if it can happen, why not use everytime you are attacking something?



True, but they still couldn't hit the Federation ship, because it travels faster than the Star Destroyer's weapons.

Prove that. SD weapons can pick off small snub fighters buzzing around it. When have we seen ST capitol ships pull off any manuever like an A-Wing. Besides, there is more than one canon on a Star Destroyer. The Fed ship would simply be led into the firing arc of the next canon.

Not to mention the range of the phasers greatly exceeds that of the turbo lasers,

Are you kidding? "Point blank range" for SW cap ships is thousands of km. When have you seen that in an ST battle?

yet the phasers are both obviously weaker than turbo lasers and obviously stronger, depending on which Star Trek episode you're watching.

No, phasers have never shown anything close to the strength of a turbolaser.



True, as has been shown to me in this thread. But hyperspace is non-combatant. Warp speed is not.

We have never seen clear evidence of reliable warp strafing. Again, if its such a great tactic, why not use it more often?


Ship v ship, I still have to give it to the Enterprise.

No, you have to actually look at the evidence.

Faster combat speeds,

Warp is ineffective against ships at regular speed. Besides, SD sensors and weapons would nail it before it got within its own weapons range.

much greater range

No, every instance of cannon evidence we've seen contradicts you

(I think in the Manuals, photons can be launched from lightyears away, will look into this),

Manuals aren't canon, only movies and TV shows according to paramount.

and contradictory firepower lead me to give the Feds the upper hand in a one-on-one ship engagement.

I don't know what ships you are refering to, but it can't be the two the rest of us are discussing.

In a war though, victory is impossible, because the Federation couldn't reach the Empire's space--meaning they would be on a 100% defensive war. In such war, victory is impossible.

American Revolution, Russian front during WW2, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Germany attacking Great Britan during WW2........

Hell, the South were doing quite well during the American Civil War until they got too ballsy and tried attacking the North.



The Borg ship is capable of launching its weapons from light years away, if what I recall in the Manuals are correct.

Manuals aren't cannon. And why don't they use these torpedos?

We don't have to prove they can't. You have to prove they can. And if it can happen, why not use everytime you are attacking something?

A contradiction in the Star Trek universe.

Prove that. SD weapons can pick off small snub fighters buzzing around it. When have we seen ST capitol ships pull off any manuever like an A-Wing. Besides, there is more than one canon on a Star Destroyer. The Fed ship would simply be led into the firing arc of the next canon.

Nothing a simple computer couldn't solve. Especially when the ship can outrun the cannons, and just like in SW, the ships can fly themselves.

Are you kidding? "Point blank range" for SW cap ships is thousands of km. When have you seen that in an ST battle?

I never noticed this in the movies. And you hear Warf saying all the time "They are X thousand kilometers away. Weapons are ready to fire Cap'n." Of course, Picard always refuses, and both ship captains always seem to want to fight within a kilometer of each other.

Not to mention, torpedoes can travel at warp speed, which means they can be used very, very far away.

No, phasers have never shown anything close to the strength of a turbolaser.

A handheld phaser appears to be able to destroy matter, or at the very least, transform it into something the receiver won't like. Ship mounted ones can drill through kilometers of "Earth" (for lack of better term of other planets) with a single beam, on their lowest settings. They can sometimes even destroy a ship with a single beam. We never saw anything close to this with a turbolaser.

We have never seen clear evidence of reliable warp strafing. Again, if its such a great tactic, why not use it more often?

We saw it in "The Unification, Part 2", where a Deridex anhiliates 2 Romulan transports with its Disrupters while traveling at Warp 3 (or 4). It isn't used more often because the ST writers contradict themselves. Over and over again.

Warp is ineffective against ships at regular speed. Besides, SD sensors and weapons would nail it before it got within its own weapons range.

We saw the opposite in DS9, where it did a Warp strafe on a shuttle traveling in realspace, using a quantum torpedo.

And why don't they use these torpedos?

They contradict themselves over and over again.

Manuals aren't cannon. And why don't they use these torpedos?
Unhh... because it makes for crap television, watching a small torpedo winding its' way along for many light years? That's my guess.

That means its not true as far as the debate is concerned. If its not onscreen, it doesn't happen as far as ST is concerned.

On an episode of DS9, the Defiant went at warp speed to catch up to and destroy a shuttle that was not going warp speed. The Defiant fired its first and only shot as it was coming out of warp speed, meaning the front of the ship looked normal but the back still looked a little distorted.

Thankyou for providing me with difinitive evidence in support of my point. If the Defiant--Trek's premier technology package--has to drop into sublight to fire on a ship not traveling in warp (though it can fire the instant that both the torpedo and the target are in realspace), it stands to reason that the same is true for all Federation vessels (which use the same weapons types, with minor variations in scale and configuaration). Episode name, please?

The Warbirds vs Transports thing was already adressed; both vessels were traveling at warp (in formation, no less).

Yeah, 'cause the Captain of the ISD is just going to sit there while a enemy ship attacks and won't roll the ship or anything like that :rolleyes:
And the Enterprise won't attempt to counter?

Let's see shall we:

ANH Tantive IV boarding: Stormtroopers kick the rebels ass.
Rebels suck in all most all instances.

ANH Death Star: Are under orders to not kill the heroes so that said heroes can lead Tarkin and Vader to the hidden rebel base.
Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.

ESB Battle of Hoth: Stormtroopers kick ass.
Rebels suck in all most all instances.

ESB Bespin: Are under orders from Vader to capture the heroes yet again.
Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.

ROTJ Endor: Are still under orders from Vader to capture the rebels. "Search the area and bring his companions to me." Is the quote or something to that effect.
Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.

And despite what you probably think, the Stormtroopers were slaughtering the Ewoks until Chewie got the AT-ST. And since we see camo troops in ROTS the Emperor wasn't too concerned with the Endor occupation force or the Stormtroopers would have had camo armor.
Leaders often make bad decisions involving their militarys, the Nazis at Normandy and in Russia, the Americans in Vietnam. In these instances, these mistakes involve underestimating their enemies to some extent.

So as you can see if you're not an idiot; Stormtroopers kick ass and obey their orders to the letter.
I never said any thing about orders I was refering to combat ability, because almost evry body in Star Wars cant aim for their lives

And like others have said, ST and SW measure things differenty., and ST writers almost make it a game to contridict themselves, so unless at least one canon source, like, but not limited to, Lucas and Rodenberry (who is dead), can give conversion rates, this will never end.

Come on guys, you all know that the enterprise crew would reverse polarise the coffee machine or something, causing a chain reaction in the ISDs laundry system, blowing it clean up.

And the Enterprise won't attempt to counter?

Rebels suck in all most all instances.

Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.

Rebels suck in all most all instances.

Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.

I never said any thing about orders I was refering to combat ability, because almost evry body in Star Wars cant aim for their lives

And like others have said, ST and SW measure things differenty., and ST writers almost make it a game to contridict themselves, so unless at least one canon source, like, but not limited to, Lucas and Rodenberry (who is dead), can give conversion rates, this will never end.

Suspension Of Disbelief. Know it. Learn it. Live it. Lucas and Roddenberry are assumed to not exist, and the movies are assumed to be documentaries, for the sake of a debate.

I tell you what. You take a carbine, with a foldable stock in folded position (ie, almost as unstable as a submachinegun or even a pistol), and try to consistantly miss a moving person 20 meters away by less than a meter. If you accidentally hit them, Lord Vader personally executes you. his will duplicate the effectiveness of Stormtroopers in every Star Wars movie seen to-date.

The Clones (Stormtroopers) were pretty good shots in episodes II and III, I guess training just got real lax over the following twenty years...


Oh yeah, ISD for teh w1n.

The Clones (Stormtroopers) were pretty good shots in episodes II and III, I guess training just got real lax over the following twenty years...


Oh yeah, ISD for teh w1n.

And the Enterprise won't attempt to counter?

Of course the Enterprise would. BUt the ISD isn't a whaled beach and it likely has light guns on it's ventral surface which are more than a match for the Enterprise. And the Enterprise doesn't the firepower to even scratch the paint of the ISD.


Rebels suck in all most all instances.

Sure compared to the elite Stormtroopers. Which just means the Stormtroopers even better.


Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.


Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.


Lucas couldn't kill his heros, bad for movies.

As Feil mentioned, it's Suspension of Disbelief.


Leaders often make bad decisions involving their militarys, the Nazis at Normandy and in Russia, the Americans in Vietnam. In these instances, these mistakes involve underestimating their enemies to some extent.

And the Emperor made a mistake, he did die at Endor after all. How does that change the fact that the Stormtroopers were kicking the Ewoks ass.


I never said any thing about orders I was refering to combat ability, because almost evry body in Star Wars cant aim for their lives.

See Feil's above post. And orders are important, the were ordered to capture them alive, you can't do that if they're dead.

And like others have said, ST and SW measure things differenty., and ST writers almost make it a game to contridict themselves, so unless at least one canon source, like, but not limited to, Lucas and Rodenberry (who is dead), can give conversion rates, this will never end.

Suspension of Disbelief. We have to rationalize the discrepancies. we look at the averages not the exceptions.

A contradiction in the Star Trek universe.

You know what that means? IT CAN'T HAPPEN!

Nothing a simple computer couldn't solve.

WHAT?! Show me an ST computer that controled a ship during combat and showed manuevering capabilites like a SW fighter. Show me a human that did that.

Especially when the ship can outrun the cannons, and just like in SW, the ships can fly themselves.

The ships cannot fly themselves in either universe. Atleast, not very well. In SW, the ships a slaved together to follow beacons and hyperout in case of emergency, but none have shown all that impressive combat capabilites.



I never noticed this in the movies. And you hear Warf saying all the time "They are X thousand kilometers away. Weapons are ready to fire Cap'n." Of course, Picard always refuses, and both ship captains always seem to want to fight within a kilometer of each other.

That seems to have more to do with limited range than anything the captains want once you see the combat in ST. And if it is the latter, that just means the people who train them are morons.

Not to mention, torpedoes can travel at warp speed, which means they can be used very, very far away.

And they will make pretty glows against SD sheilds. Not much damage, but a pretty glow.



Ship mounted ones can drill through kilometers of "Earth" (for lack of better term of other planets) with a single beam,

Really? If SDs couldn't punch through the crust of a planet to render it inhabbitable, I'd be impressed.

on their lowest settings.

Says you

They can sometimes even destroy a ship with a single beam.

When?

We never saw anything close to this with a turbolaser.

Again, read. ESB, asteroids just being vaporized like it was nothing. The Enterprise requires its full payload of torpedos to take out one asteroid.



We saw it in "The Unification, Part 2", where a Deridex anhiliates 2 Romulan transports with its Disrupters while traveling at Warp 3 (or 4).

No, it dropped in to fight. Not warp strafing.

It isn't used more often because the ST writers contradict themselves. Over and over again.

It isn't used beacause it was never used.

We saw the opposite in DS9, where it did a Warp strafe on a shuttle traveling in realspace, using a quantum torpedo.

See above.

They contradict themselves over and over again.

They do that more with backstory and continuity. You just imagine some of the things you are trying to prove.

There really is no contest here. With what we've seen weapons do in either series the ISD would win in seconds.

Turbolasers doesn't just demolish any and everything, they simply insta-boil it to shit. Startrek weapons do no such thing.
Yet it takes the whole of the rebel fleet to unleash their collective firepower just to blow up the shields on the Destroyer... While it takes a bleeding warbird 6-7 hits to almost demolish the ones on the enterprise.

And then there's the tactics bit....
The trekkies would bring the ISD on screen and shit themselves... Assuming the entire crew of the ISD was soundly asleep. Because badasses in badass spaceships don't bother with what that ugly-ass plastic bubble with the pretty blue lights is. They just evaporate the sucker and move on :p

And then there's the tactics bit....
The trekkies would bring the ISD on screen and shit themselves... Assuming the entire crew of the ISD was soundly asleep. Because badasses in badass spaceships don't bother with what that ugly-ass plastic bubble with the pretty blue lights is. They just evaporate the sucker and move on :p

The enterprise crew shrugged and attempted to establish diplomatic talks when they encountered their first Borg cube, which is a hell of a lot bigger than a Star Destroyer. Starfleet may be lacking in competant engineers, tacticians, strategists, psywar ops, soldiers, sailors, and officers, but they have bravery and fanatic loyalty to the Federation's cause. Case in point- 1st borg invasion, the Fed fleet fights to the last man, and Federation HQ isn't even evacuated.

You know what that means? IT CAN'T HAPPEN!

No, it just means the writers didn't pay enough attention.

WHAT?! Show me an ST computer that controled a ship during combat and showed manuevering capabilites like a SW fighter. Show me a human that did that.

In DS9, the one episode when Odo learns of other shapeshifters from a criminal, the computer flies the ship (I think a roundabout) because the criminal is restrained and Odo isn't a pilot. It attempts to dodge incomming fire, with a respectable amount of success.

The ships cannot fly themselves in either universe. Atleast, not very well. In SW, the ships a slaved together to follow beacons and hyperout in case of emergency, but none have shown all that impressive combat capabilites.

See my above post. Star Trek ships can fly themselves.

That seems to have more to do with limited range than anything the captains want once you see the combat in ST. And if it is the latter, that just means the people who train them are morons.

Or the writers don't pay enough attention.

Really? If SDs couldn't punch through the crust of a planet to render it inhabbitable, I'd be impressed.

We have no evidence that they can. We do in ST.

Again, read. ESB, asteroids just being vaporized like it was nothing. The Enterprise requires its full payload of torpedos to take out one asteroid.

This is another contradiction. Phasers, which are said to be much weaker than quantums or photons in pretty much every episode where combat is concerned, can drill through kilometers of planets, but can't do it to an asteroid.

If they can hit a moving target, what makes you think they have to stop, or slow down, for a non-moving one?

Okay.. back to the basics.

SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF
Suspension of Disbelief (or SOD) is the state of pretending that the movies show real events. They are considered documentaries, while canon fiction is considered fairly accurate historical fiction. The real-life nature of the universes, or the writers of the universes, is ignored. Author's intent is ignored.* The technology is assumed to work the way it does on screen or in the books. Our job is to piece together the truth about the univers from the snatches of it we see or read about.

*Sometimes we speculate on the intent of an imagined author. For instance, we may speculate that the New Republic documentarians that made the Star Wars movies hid most of the ewok casualties at Endor.


Hierarchy of Canon- Trek:

Movies and TV shows- Visuals
>Novelisations-descriptions of visuals
>Movies and TV shows- technically specific dialogue ~>Novelisations-techically specific dialogue
>Movies and TV shows and novelisations- not technically specific dialogue.
>Anything shown in a game that does not fall under the category of game mechanics
>Anything that falls under the category of game mechanics

Example:

Enterprise being hit by a laser of orders of magnitude more firepower than it can withstand from other weapons and not taking damage would be very good evidence for the "no lasers" claim. (this is never seen)

Next best would be a claim by one of the characters that "Due to the ability of our shields to deflect light and heat more easily than subspace-altering weapons like phasors, or weapons like torpedos that can partially penetrate our shields before detonating, the lasers on that ship, though they are technically more powerful than our weapons, do not pose a threat." (this is never seen).

Next best would be nonsensical technobable, a la Data (worse because it is rediculous) "Sir. The phased-photon directed energy weapons of the enemy craft will be unable to penetrate the quantum gluon defence grid of our coaxial tetrion-positron shielding, regardless of magnitude. We are at no risk."

Down at the very lowest level of evidence is a non-technical claim "hah! Those lasers can't even penetrate our navigational deflectors!"


Notes:
-Interpretations of canon or extrapolations from canon are canon aswell, and share the level of the piece they were extrapolated from. (Such as firepower calculations).
-Books in Star Trek beyond novelisations are not part of the hierarchy of canon. They are not regulated and are not required to conform to the continuity of the series. This makes them as low as fan-fiction in the hierarchy of canon-dead in the water.


EDIT: Added the two layers for games in the hierarchy.
---


Hierarchy of canon in Star Wars follows similar lines.

Movies-visuals
>Novelisations and radio plays-descriptions of visuals
>Technical Commentaries books (derived from the movies, and officially dubbed almost-G-level Canon)
>Movies- technically specific dialogue ~>Novelisations and radio plays-techically specific dialogue
>Expanded Universe Novels - visuals etc. you know the drill
~Miniserieses and other non-hexology video stuff (like Clone Wars, Droids, Holiday Special, Ewok movie, and other nausiating things)-visuals > dialogue
~Comics
>Anything shown in a game that does not fall under the category of game mechanics
>Anything that falls under the category of game mechanics

Books and comics qualify as canon because they are what Star Trek books aren't--they are regulated for conformation to the universe and continuity.


ADDED Star Wars hierarchy of canon

ADDED Suspension of Disbelief

No, it just means the writers didn't pay enough attention.

[Every time you invoke writers intent in defiance of Suspension of Disbelief, Q kills a tribble]


In DS9, the one episode when Odo learns of other shapeshifters from a criminal, the computer flies the ship (I think a roundabout) because the criminal is restrained and Odo isn't a pilot. It attempts to dodge incomming fire, with a respectable amount of success.
[If the weapons it was being fired at with were on part to those of an Imperator, respectable amount of success would mean "lasts 5 seconds before being annihilated by impact with a turbolaser". Alternately, an ISD seems to be able to hit the Millenium Falcon with perhaps 2/3 of its shots. The Enterprise is a whole lot bigger and less maneuverable than the Falcon]


See my above post. Star Trek ships can fly themselves.
[yet when capitol ships do battle, they use either joysticks or preprogrammed attack patterns combined with simple maneuvers ordered by the captain and executed by the helmsman, and routinely get hit by the other guy's ordinance. If the computer isn't used to dodge fire when it is a tactical neccessity against Trek foes, the computer doesn't get to be used to dodge fire when it is against Wars foes. Presumably it can, but is less efficient than the joysticks or commands and patterns that are used.]


Or the writers don't pay enough attention.
[Every time you invoke writers intent in defiance of Suspension of Disbelief, Q kills a tribble]


We have no evidence that they can. We do in ST.
[http://www.theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#weaponry-bd0 this link has a discussion of the nature of Star Wars' manner of destroying planets. On the other hand, in no episode of Star Trek, ever, has any starship ever drilled so much as a 1m hole through the crust; a few kilometers down is all that is ever done. As to destroying, completely and utterly, a world's capacity to support life, the Federation lacks it in a single warship in a reasonable timeframe.]


This is another contradiction. Phasers, which are said to be much weaker than quantums or photons in pretty much every episode where combat is concerned, can drill through kilometers of planets, but can't do it to an asteroid.
[perhaps all they drilled in the planet was a 10 centimeter-wide hole, and the propogation of the phaser-effect in less-dense topsoil is what gives us the impression of a big area being drilled. They only need to make a hole for a transporter signal, after all]

If they can hit a moving target, what makes you think they have to stop, or slow down, for a non-moving one?

[First, nothing is non-moving. Anything not moving in relation to a star in the Milky Way is still moving at around .2c in the same direction that the rest of the galaxy is moving in. Motion is relative. Further, velocity is a poor consept for spaceflight. Think of it as acceleration, in stead. Last, why would only one of the starships be accelerating (relative to something other than each of the starships)?

Also, it's a no-limits falacy. If I can hit a baseball moving at 40km/h relative to me, that doesn't mean I can hit one moving at 80km/h, and it sure as hell doesn't mean I can hit one while I am moving at 30km/h perpendicular to the path of the baseball traveling at 80km/h.]

[brackets mine]

I never said any thing about orders I was refering to combat ability, because almost evry body in Star Wars cant aim for their lives

Compared to the staggering accuracy of Trek infantry weapons, you mean?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/Nemesis-23.jpg

Um... you all do realize that both story worlds are founded on somewhat different assumptions about technology, don't you?

This is kind of like asking who'd win in a fight between the Emperor and Sauron... it doesn't really make that much sense. :)

Besides, both sides are armed with the most devastating of all technologies: The Plot Device. I'm pretty sure it would be mutual anihilation. ;)

if you take one IDS vs One Sovereign class Starship...

then IDS will win.

1) the IDS has torpedeos, Ion Cannons as well as turbo lasers in far more numbers than the SCS (Sovereign Class Starship)

2) sheilds being equal, the two phasers and 4 banks of Quantum Torpedos (two fore, Two Aft) won't be enough to get through the IDS sheilds in time to "Transport" a security force (no troopers in the ST universe, Something Gene Roddenberry himself argues)

3) a barrage of Ion Cannons and Turbo lasers will take down the SCS sheilds... and Ion Cannons target the electronics thus shutting down systems of the SCS. leaving it open for strafing runs by the IDS fighters. (keeping in honor of the SW universe, TIE's TIE Bombers, TIE Interceptors, Armed Shuttles.)

4) TIE Bombers can deliver the punch to penetrate the SCS sheilds and can attack from vectors that are not covered by the Phase Arrays. (anyone know how many 'Beams' each Phase Array can fire? I only seen one beam per Phase Array)

The only real advantage the SCS has is her speed. IDS can only travel up to Lightspeed while the SCS can hit Warp (which was classified faster than Light in several ST:TOS episodes.) but that can be easily neutralised by the fact that the IDS is unarmed in only one area... her aft (engines)

Um... you all do realize that both story worlds are founded on somewhat different assumptions about technology, don't you?

This is kind of like asking who'd win in a fight between the Emperor and Sauron... it doesn't really make that much sense. :)

Besides, both sides are armed with the most devastating of all technologies: The Plot Device. I'm pretty sure it would be mutual anihilation. ;)
exactly, you know who would win between a star trek and star wars fight? The asgard from stargate series. shie the goa'uld would probably whip their asses

The only real advantage the SCS has is her speed. IDS can only travel up to Lightspeed

No. Simply not true. They used some kind of wierd scale to measure light speed, but hyperdrive takes their ships well past. They can traverse their galaxy in hours, while ST takes years( and thats with help from higher beings).

No. Simply not true. They used some kind of wierd scale to measure light speed, but hyperdrive takes their ships well past. They can traverse their galaxy in hours, while ST takes years( and thats with help from higher beings).Watch Star Wars episodes 4, 5, 6, You only hear them say jump to Light Speed, the engine is the "Hyperdrive"

And on several ST:TOS series, the speed scale was Sub-light, Light, Warp. The Impulse engines can only take the ship to Light speed but it takes the Warp Drive to push it into warp.

They take the same amout of time traveling from one system to another. Star Wars does not take places in Galaxies but in different star systems Just like Star Trek

No, Trek takes place in one quadrent of the Milkyway (for the most part anyway). Even then, it takes a great deal of time to traverse that area. Hell, if not for the Bajoran Wormhole, they would still be just barely coming into contact with the Founders.

Without Q, they would have never run across the Borg.

When Voyager was trapped in the Delta Quadrent, it took them years to get back to the Alpha. Even then, they had tons of help from more advanced beings.


Star Wars, on the other hand, includes the whole galaxy. They can travel from the very center to the Outer Rim in hours.

No, Trek takes place in one quadrent of the Milkyway (for the most part anyway). Even then, it takes a great deal of time to traverse that area. Hell, if not for the Bajoran Wormhole, they would still be just barely coming into contact with the Founders.

Without Q, they would have never run across the Borg.

When Voyager was trapped in the Delta Quadrent, it took them years to get back to the Alpha. Even then, they had tons of help from more advanced beings.


Star Wars, on the other hand, includes the whole galaxy. They can travel from the very center to the Outer Rim in hours.you can't say that. they never established where coroscant was in the galaxy. and they never stated how long from the republic capital to the outer rims. you can only guess hours but it might be longer. you never know if Obi-wan stopped on some planet to rest or not.

you can't say that. they never established where coroscant was in the galaxy. and they never stated how long from the republic capital to the outer rims. you can only guess hours but it might be longer. you never know if Obi-wan stopped on some planet to rest or not.

Every Star Wars source I have ever seen agrees that Coruscant is in the core systems, fairly close to the center bulge of the SW galaxy.

you can't say that.

I just did.


they never established where coroscant was in the galaxy.

Actually, several EU sources as well as some of the DK books have established this.

and they never stated how long from the republic capital to the outer rims.

See above

you can only guess hours but it might be longer.

Or, you can make an educated guess based on the evidence in movies and books.

you never know if Obi-wan stopped on some planet to rest or not.

Since there is no mention of it, it didn't happen. And why would that hurt my case? Wouldn't that mean they travel even faster than we first suspected?

Every Star Wars source I have ever seen agrees that Coruscant is in the core systems, fairly close to the center bulge of the SW galaxy.Ahh.. but what are the core systems?

the core of the Galaxy?
or the core of the Republic/Empire Aka, capital planets?

Rim worlds can describe the worlds on the Rim of the Republic/Empire.

{SNIP}
You know what... why are we arguing? basically we agree that the IDS will spread more than the fame of the SCS all over the galaxy. If you say that the SCS doesn't have the speed... then that's even more proof that the IDS will kick Picard's ass.

add to the fact that Federation does not have infantry... means that Starwars will dominate by sheer firepower.

Normally I wouldn't do this but after ROTS, Star Trek wins this easily.

Firstly, Star Wars no longer has 200 GT weapons nor multi-terraton shields. ROTS killed that bit of crap to come out of AOTC:ICS quite handily by demonstrating that weapons used on destroyers with the yield of hand grenades are perfectly acceptable ship to ship combat weapons. Before anyone counters that the ships fighting were not the Acclamator type vessels that the 200 GT were mounted on, I think it scarcely need be said the vessels fighting were destroyers which would realistically be far more heavily armed than Acclamator troop transports.

Secondly, after ROTS, we see that a droid landing a bit hard on the hull is capable of damaging it. Either nuclear devices going off on the hull will cause damage, controdicting what some earlier in the thread said, or, alternatively, OMG!!!1! GREIVOUS HAS TEH 200 GT FEET!!11shift+1one I think the latter of those options is clearly insane. Oh, and for the record, First Contact shows us people can walk on the hull of the Enterprise without breaking it.

While warsies like to go on about BDZ, how many times in Star Trek have we heard them talk about reducing a planet to a cinder? I recall one episode of TNG where a deflector produced energy beam would destroy the entire planet if their calculations were off even a little bit. I also recall reading that it was seriously contended that the Defiant had the firepower to destroy the founder planet in the Gamma Quadrant.

While photon and quantum torpedos have varied from pitifully weak to insanely strong, they have never shown levels of combat where someone could be throwing grenades out of ten forward to greater effect. Trek wins

And for the record, I am neither warsie nor trekkie, I'm a fiver.

Normally I wouldn't do this but after ROTS, Star Trek wins this easily.

Firstly, Star Wars no longer has 200 GT weapons nor multi-terraton shields. ROTS killed that bit of crap to come out of AOTC:ICS quite handily by demonstrating that weapons used on destroyers with the yield of hand grenades are perfectly acceptable ship to ship combat weapons. Before anyone counters that the ships fighting were not the Acclamator type vessels that the 200 GT were mounted on, I think it scarcely need be said the vessels fighting were destroyers which would realistically be far more heavily armed than Acclamator troop transports.

Secondly, after ROTS, we see that a droid landing a bit hard on the hull is capable of damaging it. Either nuclear devices going off on the hull will cause damage, controdicting what some earlier in the thread said, or, alternatively, OMG!!!1! GREIVOUS HAS TEH 200 GT FEET!!11shift+1one I think the latter of those options is clearly insane. Oh, and for the record, First Contact shows us people can walk on the hull of the Enterprise without breaking it.

While warsies like to go on about BDZ, how many times in Star Trek have we heard them talk about reducing a planet to a cinder? I recall one episode of TNG where a deflector produced energy beam would destroy the entire planet if their calculations were off even a little bit. I also recall reading that it was seriously contended that the Defiant had the firepower to destroy the founder planet in the Gamma Quadrant.

While photon and quantum torpedos have varied from pitifully weak to insanely strong, they have never shown levels of combat where someone could be throwing grenades out of ten forward to greater effect. Trek wins

And for the record, I am neither warsie nor trekkie, I'm a fiver.

You do realize that ROTS is old SW tech. It's something like 20 or so years between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope. Ship design and materials drasticly improved under the Empire, which wanted the most powerful and high quality military possible. General Grievous's ship and an ImpStar II are not even remotely comparable.

While warsies like to go on about BDZ,

Because its quite effective

how many times in Star Trek have we heard them talk about reducing a planet to a cinder?

How many times have we seen it?

I recall one episode of TNG where a deflector produced energy beam would destroy the entire planet if their calculations were off even a little bit.

Data and Geordi say a lot of stupid things. We never actually see any of this happen.

I also recall reading that it was seriously contended that the Defiant had the firepower to destroy the founder planet in the Gamma Quadrant.

Read? Too bad, doesn't count. Only TV and movies count for Trek.

The Star Destroyer easily. The Sovereign class is cool and all, but it's made by a decidedly nonimperialist organization that has been building space craft for only a few hundred years. The Star Destroyer is a specialized warship.

Normally I wouldn't do this but after ROTS, Star Trek wins this easily.

Nothing in ROTS has changed the fact that the Empire could kick the Federation's ass.

Firstly, Star Wars no longer has 200 GT weapons nor multi-terraton shields. ROTS killed that bit of crap to come out of AOTC:ICS quite handily by demonstrating that weapons used on destroyers with the yield of hand grenades are perfectly acceptable ship to ship combat weapons.

Did you see the ranges they were fighting at? Using gigaton-teraton blasts at that range would be suicide. Releasing that much energy that close would damage your own ship. And would you care to back up your claim that those explosions were equivalent to a hand grenade.

Before anyone counters that the ships fighting were not the Acclamator type vessels that the 200 GT were mounted on, I think it scarcely need be said the vessels fighting were destroyers which would realistically be far more heavily armed than Acclamator troop transports.

Yes those vessels were Venator-class Star Destroyers, Munificent-class Star Frigates, Recuscant-class light destroyers and the Invisible Hand was a Providence-class destroyer/carrier.

Oh, and according the ROTS:ICS the Venator's main guns have a range of 10 light-minutes.

Secondly, after ROTS, we see that a droid landing a bit hard on the hull is capable of damaging it.

Grievous is a cyborg not a droid. And grasping already weakened hull plates, the IH had been in an hours long battle, with claws is different than stepping on it with boots.

I think the latter of those options is clearly insane. Oh, and for the record, First Contact shows us people can walk on the hull of the Enterprise without breaking it.

See above.

While warsies like to go on about BDZ,

Yes, as it shows that a single common ISD can do what a fleet of ST ships can't do, and can do it in under an hour.

how many times in Star Trek have we heard them talk about reducing a planet to a cinder?

And when have we ever actually seeen this? That's right, never.

I recall one episode of TNG where a deflector produced energy beam would destroy the entire planet if their calculations were off even a little bit.

Provide the episode name and the quote.

I also recall reading that it was seriously contended that the Defiant had the firepower to destroy the founder planet in the Gamma Quadrant.

In "The Die is Cast"(DS9) it takes a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships to cause a few weird clouds and maybe a few small craters on the Founder's planet. The Defiant is not as powerful as a fleet of Romulan and Cardie ships.

While photon and quantum torpedos have varied from pitifully weak to insanely strong, they have never shown levels of combat where someone could be throwing grenades out of ten forward to greater effect. Trek wins

Provide evidence that the shots in ROTS were the equivalent to a hand grenade. Especially when we have the Slave 1 in AOTC vaporizing asteroids left righ and center and dealing gigatons of energy with its seismic charges.

And for the record, I am neither warsie nor trekkie, I'm a fiver.

Then I suppose you'll be pissed to know that both ST and SW could curbstomp B5.

You do realize that ROTS is old SW tech. It's something like 20 or so years between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope. Ship design and materials drasticly improved under the Empire, which wanted the most powerful and high quality military possible. General Grievous's ship and an ImpStar II are not even remotely comparable.

Bollocks. Are you honestly contending with a straight face that ship designs went from heavy weapons whose yields were measured in joules to weapons that were measured in Gigatons in 20 years?

Nothing in ROTS has changed the fact that the Empire could kick the Federation's ass. Until the federation rolls down the window and throws a grenade at them.

Did you see the ranges they were fighting at? Using gigaton-teraton blasts at that range would be suicide. Releasing that much energy that close would damage your own ship. And would you care to back up your claim that those explosions were equivalent to a hand grenade.
The range is utterly irrelevant. The fact that they were being damaged and destroyed by the grenade level blasts is proof they cannot stand up to more. Unless you are going to suggest not only did they turn down their guns for close range combat but they turned down the shields too, you are without argument. And the fact that a close hit on a clone trooper and didn't move him is fairly solid evidence we aren't dealing with anything more than TNT level explosives. Unless of course the humans in this galaxy far far away are measured in miles rather than feet.

Yes those vessels were Venator-class Star Destroyers, Munificent-class Star Frigates, Recuscant-class light destroyers and the Invisible Hand was a Providence-class destroyer/carrier. Right, and thus would be far more heavily armed than an Acclamator Troop Transport.


Oh, and according the ROTS:ICS the Venator's main guns have a range of 10 light-minutes. Uh huh. And yet they insisted on fighting at spitting distance where they couldn't, according to you, use but a tiny fraction of their firepower.


Yes, as it shows that a single common ISD can do what a fleet of ST ships can't do, and can do it in under an hour. Set plants on fire? Perhaps you should read Darksaber.

Provide the episode name and the quote. In a bit, I'll have to do some digging.

Grievous is a cyborg not a droid. And grasping already weakened hull plates, the IH had been in an hours long battle, with claws is different than stepping on it with boots. We see no damage on that bit of plating. There is nothing to suggest that part of the ship had any prior damage to it except your dreams of warsie glory. Once again we are left with 200 GT feet or weak hulls.

In "The Die is Cast"(DS9) it takes a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships to cause a few weird clouds and maybe a few small craters on the Founder's planet. The Defiant is not as powerful as a fleet of Romulan and Cardie ships. And yet the dialogue in TDIC tell us, what was it, 70% of the surface had been destroyed? You can't simply ignore any dialogue that doesn't suite you.

Hell, if I wanted to get really nasty i could point out that in Enterprise Trip said that it would take a thousand enterprises (NX) to do what the Xindi superweapon could. Seeing as how you sound to be a pet of Wong, tell me what a weapon a ship a mere three orders of magnitude lesser than a deathstar could do to a planet. Then let that technology grow for a few hundred years and tell me what a Sovereign could do.


Provide evidence that the shots in ROTS were the equivalent to a hand grenade. Especially when we have the Slave 1 in AOTC vaporizing asteroids left righ and center and dealing gigatons of energy with its seismic charges.


Screenshot? If you insist. (Seen online, reproduced here.)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor1.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor3.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor4.jpg

That is rocket propelled grenade level firepower right there.

Then I suppose you'll be pissed to know that both ST and SW could curbstomp B5. Whatever you say chuckles. Get back to me when either Trek or Wars considers it a viable strategy to break apart a neutron star and fire the pieces at their enemies or when either developes personal weapons technology capable of seperating volumes of space from the universe and then collapsing them into non-existance.

Oh, and by "read" in regards to the defiant I meant read online at one of the assorted trekkie sites as part of an episode synopsis. I will say that was a decent attempt at using the trek canon tree against me though.

Oh, and the TNG episode in question was episode 109, "A matter of time" and the dialogue was that if their calculations were off even slightly, the entire atmoshpere would be burned off.

Until the federation rolls down the window and throws a grenade at them.

I will address this later in the post.

The range is utterly irrelevant. The fact that they were being damaged and destroyed by the grenade level blasts is proof they cannot stand up to more.

Bullshit. We never see the hull after those firery explosions. It's likely that the damage was superficial, and the Invisible Hand had been battered for hours. It's also a bad idea to fire shots that could miss and hit the hyper-populated Coruscant below at full power.


Unless you are going to suggest not only did they turn down their guns for close range combat but they turned down the shields too, you are without argument.

The battle had been going on for hours. Few ships had their shields left, in fact the only ships we saw that still had shields were the TradeFed Battleships. In which case it makes perfect sense to turn down your damage to avoid incinerating yourself.

And the fact that a close hit on a clone trooper and didn't move him is fairly solid evidence we aren't dealing with anything more than TNT level explosives. Unless of course the humans in this galaxy far far away are measured in miles rather than feet.

Perhaps the gun that fired was suffering from power loss. Perhaps they had decided to lower the yield to conserve reactor mass. Perhaps that ships shields were still somewhat functional and only let a small amount of energy bleed through. Whatever the case may be all it represents is a lower limit on the weapons strength, it is by no means an upper limit.

Right, and thus would be far more heavily armed than an Acclamator Troop Transport.

They are more heavily armed. But they were fighting with reduced firepower to protect themselves and to protect Coruscant from a stray blast.

Uh huh. And yet they insisted on fighting at spitting distance where they couldn't, according to you, use but a tiny fraction of their firepower.

They were fighting under Coruscant's planetary shield and trying to keep the Invisible Hand from jumping to hyperspace. Hence the abnormally close range.

Set plants on fire? Perhaps you should read Darksaber.

Correction, the SSD started forest fires visible from orbit. I've heard that is a gigaton level event, though I don't know how they arrived at that figure. In any case you're forgetting all of the other EU which supports high firepower. Such as the ability to slag the surface of a planet in under an hour, the ICSes, or when in Visions of the Future 3 ISDs were tasked with BDZing Bothawai, or the fucking Death Star.

In a bit, I'll have to do some digging.

Very well, I'm patient.

We see no damage on that bit of plating. There is nothing to suggest that part of the ship had any prior damage to it except your dreams of warsie glory. Once again we are left with 200 GT feet or weak hulls.

SW armor is supposed to be super-conducting. It would have been weakened by non-direct hits, or maybe it was a light outer coating to paint on. In any case it doesn't disprove the strength that SW armor hsa shown in other instances such as when Jango blasted a tiny hole in Obi-Wan's fighter in AOTC with the blasters that effortlessly vape asteroids.

And yet the dialogue in TDIC tell us, what was it, 70% of the surface had been destroyed? You can't simply ignore any dialogue that doesn't suite you.

Thirty percent actually. But visuals trump dialouge and the seen bombardment most certainly does not destroy 30% of the crust.

Hell, if I wanted to get really nasty i could point out that in Enterprise Trip said that it would take a thousand enterprises (NX) to do what the Xindi superweapon could. Seeing as how you sound to be a pet of Wong, tell me what a weapon a ship a mere three orders of magnitude lesser than a deathstar could do to a planet. Then let that technology grow for a few hundred years and tell me what a Sovereign could do.

Not much, the observed firepower of a Sovereign is not anywhere near the firepower of an ISD. And since we know that the NX-01 can't blow up a planet and neither can a Soveriegn, in fact they can't even perfore a BDZ in a reasonable timefrime like the ISD can, they're not match for an ISD.

And did ever occur to you that Trip was just pulling that number out of his ass?



Screenshot? If you insist. (Seen online, reproduced here.)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor1.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor3.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor4.jpg

That is rocket propelled grenade level firepower right there.

I've dealt with this above.

Whatever you say chuckles. Get back to me when either Trek or Wars considers it a viable strategy to break apart a neutron star and fire the pieces at their enemies or when either developes personal weapons technology capable of seperating volumes of space from the universe and then collapsing them into non-existance.

It sounds to me more like you're describing the Fifth Empire from David Weber's works than Babylon 5. In which the human ships don't have shields and rotate for gravity and some ancient super powerful ship can be destroyed by at most a 30 megaton nuke.

Oh, and by "read" in regards to the defiant I meant read online at one of the assorted trekkie sites as part of an episode synopsis. I will say that was a decent attempt at using the trek canon tree against me though.

Huh?

Oh, and the TNG episode in question was episode 109, "A matter of time" and the dialogue was that if their calculations were off even slightly, the entire atmoshpere would be burned off.

The quote is:
"DATA: If our phaser discharge is off by as little as point-zero-six terawatts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion.

PICARD: Meaning?

DATA: We would completely burn off the planet's atmosphere."

Care to explain how a measly 60 GW could burn of a planet's atmosphere when a 50 megaton nuclear weapon(Russia's Tzar Bomba) won't?

Bullshit. We never see the hull after those firery explosions. It's likely that the damage was superficial, and the Invisible Hand had been battered for hours. It's also a bad idea to fire shots that could miss and hit the hyper-populated Coruscant below at full power. Indeed it is bullshit. Does this mean the warsies are backing of on their claim of watts rated shields that take no damage until a watt threshold is reached? And what do you mean the damage was superficial, it punched through the bloody hull into one of their weapons platforms.

The battle had been going on for hours. Few ships had their shields left, in fact the only ships we saw that still had shields were the TradeFed Battleships. In which case it makes perfect sense to turn down your damage to avoid incinerating yourself. And also never reach the watt threshold for the trade federation battleship that is shooting at you. Brilliant strategy.


Perhaps the gun that fired was suffering from power loss. Perhaps they had decided to lower the yield to conserve reactor mass. Perhaps that ships shields were still somewhat functional and only let a small amount of energy bleed through. Whatever the case may be all it represents is a lower limit on the weapons strength, it is by no means an upper limit. And yet shots were consistantly doing that level of damage. The biggest explosion we saw was maybe 18 feet in diameter and that was when one of the guns was hit and exploded. It is absolutely insane to suggest that every gun we saw fire was suffering from power loss, was powered down, or designed to annoy enemy vessels. Face it, there is no good reason for them to be firing pea shooters at each other when they had far better available. Further, even if we want to follow this lunacy that they turned down their guns, why would they reduce it to grenade level instead, of, say, ton level or so? It simply does not make sense to say they were limiting themselves like that because if either side had turned up the power it would have been over almost instantly.

They are more heavily armed. But they were fighting with reduced firepower to protect themselves and to protect Coruscant from a stray blast.
And why would the sepratists give a damn about that?

They were fighting under Coruscant's planetary shield and trying to keep the Invisible Hand from jumping to hyperspace. Hence the abnormally close range. That might explain why they would close in on that ship, it would not explain why all the rest of the ships closed in at that range. In a sky full of republic starships cutting their firepower, I would think the best place to be would be at a range where you could bring your full firepower to bear on them so the Invisible hand could get an opening.

Correction, the SSD started forest fires visible from orbit. I've heard that is a gigaton level event, though I don't know how they arrived at that figure. In any case you're forgetting all of the other EU which supports high firepower. Such as the ability to slag the surface of a planet in under an hour, the ICSes, or when in Visions of the Future 3 ISDs were tasked with BDZing Bothawai, or the fucking Death Star. I'm sorry, are you seriously comparing the Death Star to a single ISD? In any case, ignoring that, and btw, pointing out the ship in question was even badder than the one I thought it was doesn't help, you could perform a similiar operation with the Enterprise. Mid megaton range torpedos scattered accross the surface of a planet would quickly reduce the life levels on the planet to nothing.

SW armor is supposed to be super-conducting. It would have been weakened by non-direct hits, or maybe it was a light outer coating to paint on. In any case it doesn't disprove the strength that SW armor hsa shown in other instances such as when Jango blasted a tiny hole in Obi-Wan's fighter in AOTC with the blasters that effortlessly vape asteroids. The fact the bolt in the screenshots I posted was not distributed accross the entire surface of the ship is proof they are not actually superconductive. I also do not believe the asteroids AOTC were vaporized so much as blasted apart which could mean weak asteroids as much as strong weapons. An asteroid field at that level of density would have almost certainly been a relatively recently destroyed planetoid of some sort.

Thirty percent actually. But visuals trump dialouge and the seen bombardment most certainly does not destroy 30% of the crust. But they can of course, mesh. You can't see any more than half of the planet at any given time anyway.

Not much, the observed firepower of a Sovereign is not anywhere near the firepower of an ISD. And since we know that the NX-01 can't blow up a planet and neither can a Soveriegn, in fact they can't even perfore a BDZ in a reasonable timefrime like the ISD can, they're not match for an ISD.

And did ever occur to you that Trip was just pulling that number out of his ass? How do you know what time frame a Sovereign could pull a BDZ in? Have we ever seen one try?

I don't see why Trip would have to. He would know the power levels of the enterprise by heart and even a bloody nerd from over a centruy in the past knows the level of firepower needed to destroy an earthlike planet. Someone trained in that kind of thing certainly would.


It sounds to me more like you're describing the Fifth Empire from David Weber's works than Babylon 5. Nope both are from canon B5. The Spell of Destruction (Technomages) breaks off pieces of the universe creating an unstable pocket universe which collapses in seconds and the Neutron star fragments, otherwise known as Starshards, were placed there by an unknown First One in a war long past. In which the human ships don't have shields and rotate for gravity Actually neither of those is true by the end of the series, the first wasn't true at the beginning. and some ancient super powerful ship can be destroyed by at most a 30 megaton nuke. Actually the nukes were stated to be upwards of 500 Megatons and the ship destroyed was a scout the Shadows use to play with other races.

Huh? That part was directed at Interhard.

Care to explain how a measly 60 GW could burn of a planet's atmosphere when a 50 megaton nuclear weapon(Russia's Tzar Bomba) won't?

Through a cascading exothermal inversion of course.

:p

Oh, and it says off by 60 GW, not that they are using 60 GW. That means their margin of error, regardless of how much power is being used, is that range.

Watch Star Wars episodes 4, 5, 6, You only hear them say jump to Light Speed, the engine is the "Hyperdrive"

And on several ST:TOS series, the speed scale was Sub-light, Light, Warp. The Impulse engines can only take the ship to Light speed but it takes the Warp Drive to push it into warp.

They take the same amout of time traveling from one system to another. Star Wars does not take places in Galaxies but in different star systems Just like Star Trek

Can't believe no one noticed this before. Especially the super nerds with the Star Wars roleplaying game core rulebook. Turn to page 208-209, and you'll see the galaxy. Also, On page 207, it explains that the galaxy (singular) is split into nine vast regions.

Of course, it could also be said that a roleplaying book is anything but canon.

And, even if it is true, hyperspace would still be faster than warp, unless the SW galaxy is much, much smaller than the milky way.

Indeed it is bullshit. Does this mean the warsies are backing of on their claim of watts rated shields that take no damage until a watt threshold is reached? And what do you mean the damage was superficial, it punched through the bloody hull into one of their weapons platforms.

Why don't you take a look at your screen shots again. Those weapon emplacements are shooting out of fucking force-field windows. No need to shoot through the hull.

And also never reach the watt threshold for the trade federation battleship that is shooting at you. Brilliant strategy.

Just shows that the TradeFed BBs are more powerful than Venators and the other CIS ships. They unlike the others can keep their shields up after hours of continual bombardment.

And yet shots were consistantly doing that level of damage. The biggest explosion we saw was maybe 18 feet in diameter and that was when one of the guns was hit and exploded.

Actually the biggest explosion we see is the one after a Venator blows a CIS frigate in half. I just remembered that there was wreckage of CIS ships and plenty of Munificents and Recuscants getting their asses handed to them in tiny pieces by the Venators.

You're just talking about the VentStar/IH broadside duel. In which I must say the the IH was crippled and damaged enough that it would break in half later on.

And that the ROTS:ICS says that the IH's quad guns can cause a Magnitude 10 earthquake, which is equivalent to 1 teraton.

Also that the VentStar wouldn't want to destroy the IH as it has the fucking Supreme Chancellor aboard.

So all of this is just one giant anomaly and can't be used as a normal instance of SW firepower, let alone the upper limit on it.


It is absolutely insane to suggest that every gun we saw fire was suffering from power loss, was powered down, or designed to annoy enemy vessels. Face it, there is no good reason for them to be firing pea shooters at each other when they had far better available.

And thet weren't firing pea shooters. The Republic was wasting the Seperatist ships by blowing them to itty bitty pieces. Only the anomalous broadside between the VentStar and IH has the small explosions.

Further, even if we want to follow this lunacy that they turned down their guns, why would they reduce it to grenade level instead, of, say, ton level or so? It simply does not make sense to say they were limiting themselves like that because if either side had turned up the power it would have been over almost instantly.

See above.

And why would the sepratists give a damn about that?

They wouldn't, but see above.

That might explain why they would close in on that ship, it would not explain why all the rest of the ships closed in at that range. In a sky full of republic starships cutting their firepower, I would think the best place to be would be at a range where you could bring your full firepower to bear on them so the Invisible hand could get an opening.

Remember that shield I mentioned they were fighting under? Wait, of course not as you realize that that destroys your range argument.

I'm sorry, are you seriously comparing the Death Star to a single ISD? In any case, ignoring that, and btw, pointing out the ship in question was even badder than the one I thought it was doesn't help

The ISD and Death Star have the same type of reactor. If you scale the Death Star's down to ISD size you get a firepower in the gigaton range at the lowest end and petaton range at the highest.

And it is well established that ISDs can perform a BDZ alone in under an hour. And a BDZ involves terminating all life and destroying all natural resources including mines and even fisheries. To kill all water life you'd have to vaporize water to a great depth, for a planet like Earth this would require ~1e27 Joules. Dividing by 64 HTLs on an ISD2 we get 1.56e25 Joules per gun, over an hour at 1 shot per 2 seconds we get 1800 shots, that gives us 8.68e21 Joules per gun/per shot at presumably max power. That's ~2 teratons per max yield shot. Have a nice day.

, you could perform a similiar operation with the Enterprise. Mid megaton range torpedos scattered accross the surface of a planet would quickly reduce the life levels on the planet to nothing.

No you couldn't. Let's say you use six-hundred 500MT torpedoes. That's 300,000 megatons or 3e5 MT, you need at least 1e9MT to sterilze a planet. You could do something like this

Land impact destroys a large state (eg- California, France, Japan) and produces enough atmospheric dust loading to affect global climate, freezing crops. Ocean impact creates hemisphere-spanning tsunamis but no global climate change. Global ozone layer is heavily damaged.

The fact the bolt in the screenshots I posted was not distributed accross the entire surface of the ship is proof they are not actually superconductive.

What makes you think that the re-distribution must be visible? The temerature of the hull may never exceed that needed to radiate in the visible spectrum while still spreading the heat.

I also do not believe the asteroids AOTC were vaporized so much as blasted apart

At the speed at which they were destroyed and wound up disappearing with no rubble it doesn't matter if they were blasted apart or vaped through conduction as the stress heating of that much matter blowing through the rock would vaporize it anyway.

which could mean weak asteroids as much as strong weapons.

See above.

An asteroid field at that level of density would have almost certainly been a relatively recently destroyed planetoid of some sort.

Yes it would. What's your point?

But they can of course, mesh. You can't see any more than half of the planet at any given time anyway.

But the part we do see doesn't show the effects that would be present if there was any significant damage to the crust as in this picture. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/ForeShadow-Planet.jpg)

How do you know what time frame a Sovereign could pull a BDZ in? Have we ever seen one try?

Since it took a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships to mildly damage the Founder planet in "The Die is Cast". I doubt that a Sovereign could BDZ a planet alone in under an hour.

I don't see why Trip would have to. He would know the power levels of the enterprise by heart and even a bloody nerd from over a centruy in the past knows the level of firepower needed to destroy an earthlike planet. Someone trained in that kind of thing certainly would.

And yet we never see an NX-class ship display planet destroying firepower as it would have if it were 1/1000 as powerful as the Death Star. At most we get megaton range from when it blew up that rubble pile on that moon.

Nope both are from canon B5. The Spell of Destruction (Technomages) breaks off pieces of the universe creating an unstable pocket universe which collapses in seconds and the Neutron star fragments, otherwise known as Starshards, were placed there by an unknown First One in a war long past. Actually neither of those is true by the end of the series, the first wasn't true at the beginning. Actually the nukes were stated to be upwards of 500 Megatons and the ship destroyed was a scout the Shadows use to play with other races.

I don't know enough about B5 to debate the topic. But why don't you take it up at www.stardestroyer.net with people who know more than me.

That part was directed at Interhard.

My mistake.

Through a cascading exothermal inversion of course.

And would it be reacting with to produce several orders of magnitude more energy than the extra 60GW.

Oh, and it says off by 60 GW, not that they are using 60 GW. That means their margin of error, regardless of how much power is being used, is that range.

It's probably less than a terawatt as that is the most commonly heard Ent-D power generation figure.

I found a thread discussing B5vsSW. If I can find more I'll post them:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=66937&highlight=trek

The crew of the Enterprise actually has reasons to fight. The star destroyer's motivation is EVIL. Also, star destoryers appear to be piloted by sight, whee the Enterprise has sophisticated sensor equipment. And a star destroyer would probably have no defense against the transporters of the Enterpirse, so they would just have to get close for a moment and they could throw the enemy into confusion by transporting officers (captain, pilot, etc) off the star destroyer.

The crew of the Enterprise actually has reasons to fight. The star destroyer's motivation is EVIL.

Greed is a motivation. Poland had a valiant motivation against the Nazis and look at all the good it did them.

Also, star destoryers appear to be piloted by sight, whee the Enterprise has sophisticated sensor equipment.

Uhhhh, did you see the sensors used in or refered to every movie? And why not use a transparent material? Its yet another sense at your disposal.

And a star destroyer would probably have no defense against the transporters of the Enterpirse,

Except for the shields, weapons, support craft etc etc. Keep in mind, you are refering to a device that gets blocked by a cloudy day.

so they would just have to get close for a moment and they could throw the enemy into confusion by transporting officers (captain, pilot, etc) off the star destroyer.

"Admiral, the enemy ship is approaching our bridge!"

"And? We should just let it stand there. We certainly aren't going to blast it into particles before it gets within its own sensor range of us. Nope. That won't happen. We are just going to sit here and let them do whatever it is they are doing."

The crew of the Enterprise actually has reasons to fight.Oh the Federation will have a reason to fight, but not the means. Gene Roddenberry actually argued this. the FEDERATION has no STANDING ARMY. they never needed one and will never get one. (argued when a Role Playing Company created rules for a Star Trek Role Playing Game that used infantry... that company lost the licence to make any more ST:RPG's) so they would have every crewmen using phasers against stormtroopers with blasters. and their phasers would most likely be set at "stun"
The star destroyer's motivation is EVIL. Also, star destoryers appear to be piloted by sight, whee the Enterprise has sophisticated sensor equipment. Star Destroyers are not piloted by sight. they too have "sophisticated sensor equiptment."

And a star destroyer would probably have no defense against the transporters of the Enterpirse, so they would just have to get close for a moment and they could throw the enemy into confusion by transporting officers (captain, pilot, etc) off the star destroyer.nope. the SD's have sheilds. and they would be enough to prevent the transporter from being used.

The crew of the Enterprise actually has reasons to fight. The star destroyer's motivation is EVIL. Also, star destoryers appear to be piloted by sight, whee the Enterprise has sophisticated sensor equipment. And a star destroyer would probably have no defense against the transporters of the Enterpirse, so they would just have to get close for a moment and they could throw the enemy into confusion by transporting officers (captain, pilot, etc) off the star destroyer.

Because, after all, they are only a fanatically loyal military of a fascist society that glorifyies military service, which is conditioned to believe that they are a superior race, bringing peace and order to the galaxy, and fighting for the saviour of their civilisation (Palpatine).

They are, after all, just fighting for the fatherland, and, likely by this time, due to the Empire's propaganda machine, defending the system of free-market capitolism against the barbaric and uncivilised communist Federation which is so cruel and callous that they will not even provide medicine or aide to a world if it does not fit certain technological criteria... unlike the kind and glorious Empire which wishes to extend its protection across two galaxies, rather than one, and civilise the savage, but essentially human Federation citizens after freeign them from StarFleet oppression....

Surely, they will have no reason at all to fight.

Ahem.



As to OMFG Teh TRANSPORTERS!!!...

1: Transporters don't work through shields.
2: Transporters don't work through jamming, and Star Wars ships use jamming quite heavily.
3: Transporters tend not to work through particularly dense alloys or elements. Star Destroyer armor is particularly dense. They might be able to beam someone through a window if the SD was already disabled and they flew right up next to it. Other than that...



As the the Invisible Hand...

A point-by-point refutal of your claims might be possible if I had the movie to watch, or had watched it more than one time.

However, this was the warship on which the Supreme Chancellor was known to be being held hostage. Like... the whole reason for the battle. Destroying the ship with the "savior of the republic" held hostage onboard is not a good idea. Firing enough firepower into it to try to diable it for boarding options because the Jedi are taking an awefully long time sending their regular status report is.

As to the size of the explosions... We use tonnage because it is much easier and more easily understandable to say 200 Gigatonnes than it is to say 9.22 E 20 Joules. (Most people know that anything above a kilotonne is in the nuclear-weapons yields, and that anything above a few dozen megatonnes is beyond modern capability.) It is a unit of energy. The weapon is a directed-energy weapon, not an explosive. Any explosion seen is most likely due to expansion of the target matter, not the bolt itself.

When the weapon is firing into an uncertain substance (dura-armor or shielding, for instance) the reaction between the weapon and the target is as useless to determining the firepower of the weapon as watching a video of someone firing a gun of unknown capabilities into an object of unknown substance. It could be, for instance, a .22 firing into a piece of window glass, or a .50 firing into a piece of highest-quality bullet-proof glass. We don't know.

Therefore, we use the interaction of the weapon with a target of known properties--a planet or an asteroid or a piece of granite-like rock--to determine its capabilities.

Oh the Federation will have a reason to fight, but not the means. Gene Roddenberry actually argued this. the FEDERATION has no STANDING ARMY. they never needed one and will never get one. (argued when a Role Playing Company created rules for a Star Trek Role Playing Game that used infantry... that company lost the licence to make any more ST:RPG's) so they would have every crewmen using phasers against stormtroopers with blasters. and their phasers would most likely be set at "stun"
Star Destroyers are not piloted by sight. they too have "sophisticated sensor equiptment."

nope. the SD's have sheilds. and they would be enough to prevent the transporter from being used.

Actually, their intruder-defence policy would probably be fairly similar to what it is most of the time... expose that area to vacuum or flood it with gas. (won't do any good against a Stormie who has sealed his helmet to his suit (presumably most leave it unsealed when not needed to be sealed, much like modern pilots don't put on the oxygen mask unless needed) ) as troopers are protected from NBC and limited vacuum.

The Trek crew has... no squad automatic weapons, no crew-served machine guns, no grenades, no shotguns, no submachineguns, no tripwire-operated boobie traps (from lack of grenades and other explosives). Essentially, the Trek crew lacks the weapons needed for indoor fighting.

On the other hand, the standard stormie carries, as standard kit, full body armor with NBC protection, a semiautomatic carbine (that may, after watching ROTS, have an automatic mode never used onscreen), and a grenade (clipped to the back of the belt). Goodies seen onscreen include squad automatic weapons (sandtroopers), crew-served machine guns (ESB Snowtroopers) and stun beam attachments to blasters. Goodies seen in the EU range from nerve gas to land mines to personal mecha of a size small enough to fight in the Enterprise's corridors.

Actually, their intruder-defence policy would probably be fairly similar to what it is most of the time... expose that area to vacuum or flood it with gas. (won't do any good against a Stormie who has sealed his helmet to his suit (presumably most leave it unsealed when not needed to be sealed, much like modern pilots don't put on the oxygen mask unless needed) ) as troopers are protected from NBC and limited vacuum.

The Trek crew has... no squad automatic weapons, no crew-served machine guns, no grenades, no shotguns, no submachineguns, no tripwire-operated boobie traps (from lack of grenades and other explosives). Essentially, the Trek crew lacks the weapons needed for indoor fighting.

On the other hand, the standard stormie carries, as standard kit, full body armor with NBC protection, a semiautomatic carbine (that may, after watching ROTS, have an automatic mode never used onscreen), and a grenade (clipped to the back of the belt). Goodies seen onscreen include squad automatic weapons (sandtroopers), crew-served machine guns (ESB Snowtroopers) and stun beam attachments to blasters. Goodies seen in the EU range from nerve gas to land mines to personal mecha of a size small enough to fight in the Enterprise's corridors.err... read this as two ways, Are you agreeing that the ISD will overpower the SCS or the other way around?

Actually, their intruder-defence policy would probably be fairly similar to what it is most of the time... expose that area to vacuum or flood it with gas. (won't do any good against a Stormie who has sealed his helmet to his suit (presumably most leave it unsealed when not needed to be sealed, much like modern pilots don't put on the oxygen mask unless needed) ) as troopers are protected from NBC and limited vacuum.

The Trek crew has... no squad automatic weapons, no crew-served machine guns, no grenades, no shotguns, no submachineguns, no tripwire-operated boobie traps (from lack of grenades and other explosives). Essentially, the Trek crew lacks the weapons needed for indoor fighting.

On the other hand, the standard stormie carries, as standard kit, full body armor with NBC protection, a semiautomatic carbine (that may, after watching ROTS, have an automatic mode never used onscreen), and a grenade (clipped to the back of the belt). Goodies seen onscreen include squad automatic weapons (sandtroopers), crew-served machine guns (ESB Snowtroopers) and stun beam attachments to blasters. Goodies seen in the EU range from nerve gas to land mines to personal mecha of a size small enough to fight in the Enterprise's corridors.


Well said Feil, well said. And if I may add some of my own points to your above two posts:

1: The Stormie grenade on their back is actually a thermal detonator. And ones that are larger than the one that Leia used to threaten and scare shitless everyone in Jabba's palace. And according to the EU they also likely carry frag or concussion grenafes often aswell. In special kits they'd also have the aforementioned nerve gas grenades(gas that can kill in seconds from skin contact), adhesive spraying glop grenades and Cryoban grenades to freeze people to death.

2: The Stormies E-11 carbine does indeed have a never seen full auto mode.

3: In SW the larger capital ships use such powerful jamming that it actually distorts space-time. Just try to beam through that.

4: Feil, very good points on the directed energy aspect of TLs. I meant to mention that myself but never did.

Well said Feil, well said. And if I may add some of my own points to your above two posts:

1: The Stormie grenade on their back is actually a thermal detonator. And ones that are larger than the one that Leia used to threaten and scare shitless everyone in Jabba's palace. And according to the EU they also likely carry frag or concussion grenafes often aswell. In special kits they'd also have the aforementioned nerve gas grenades(gas that can kill in seconds from skin contact), adhesive spraying glop grenades and Cryoban grenades to freeze people to death.

2: The Stormies E-11 carbine does indeed have a never seen full auto mode.

3: In SW the larger capital ships use such powerful jamming that it actually distorts space-time. Just try to beam through that.

4: Feil, very good points on the directed energy aspect of TLs. I meant to mention that myself but never did.

1- bigger does not neccessarily mean more powerful, and [EDIT] more powerful does not neccessarily mean better. That bigness could be from a casing designed to clip to the underbarrel of the rifle, for instance, or a recoilless rocket for use in low-G environments or even just a handy grip for a much smaller explosive. Leah's grenade was probably in the 100-200 lb TNT range (hence Jabba's palace going nuts), and we have therms on record with kiloton and higher level firepower, if i'm not mistaken. Beyond a weapon to terrorise people into giving you what you want, it is pretty useless to have a weapon that has a wider effective kill radius than it is possible for a human to throw it. (Especially in cramped quarters like the interior of a space ship)

2- Source, please? I'd like to know for sure, and to be able to bring it up in the future.

3- Until you provide fairly rigourous sourcing for this and a plausible explanation of why this is anything different, I will assume this is a simple case of artificial-gravity tech being employed to trick gravity-detecting sensors. There is no reason (or plausible method) for electronic countermeasures to "distort space-time", and last time I checked, a distortion in space-time was a gravitational field.

4- Thanks



EDIT:
err... read this as two ways, Are you agreeing that the ISD will overpower the SCS or the other way around?


Oh. And I'm arguing against the guys whose infantryman's standard kit doesn't even come with a bloody helmet.

2- Source, please? I'd like to know for sure, and to be able to bring it up in the future. gotta watch my films again... I think they do show the stormies guns at full auto in eps 4/5/6. then again, are you counting books?

3- Until you provide fairly rigourous sourcing for this and a plausible explanation of why this is anything different, I will assume this is a simple case of artificial-gravity tech being employed to trick gravity-detecting sensors. There is no reason (or plausible method) for electronic countermeasures to "distort space-time", and last time I checked, a distortion in space-time was a gravitational field. depends if you count the books. the Empire has an Interdicter Class Star Destroyer who's perpose is to 'pull' ships out of lightspeed. they have several Gravity Generators designed to mimic a small planet causing ships to 'Pop' out to normal space.

Oh. And I'm arguing against the guys whose infantryman's standard kit doesn't even come with a bloody helmet.
ah... it always confused me on why the Federation never had ground troops. always a "Security force"

gotta watch my films again... I think they do show the stormies guns at full auto in eps 4/5/6. then again, are you counting books?

depends if you count the books. the Empire has an Interdicter Class Star Destroyer who's perpose is to 'pull' ships out of lightspeed. they have several Gravity Generators designed to mimic a small planet causing ships to 'Pop' out to normal space.


ah... it always confused me on why the Federation never had ground troops. always a "Security force"


See my earlier post (page 12) on hierarchy of canon. Books are valid, especially the descriptions in the books, so long as they don't disagree with the movies, though the margin for error is considdered much greater.

As to the Interdictor, that is unrelated to his assertion and my counterpoint.

Feddie ground troops seem to have existed at one point, but disappeared by the time of TNG. Most likely "Security Force" fills an identical role but is a more politically correct terminolegy than "Marines", much like the UN's classification of its military assets.

See my earlier post (page 12) on hierarchy of canon. Books are valid, especially the descriptions in the books, so long as they don't disagree with the movies, though the margin for error is considdered much greater. then there are instances where Stormtroopers use their carbines in full auto mode. Stackpoles 'X-Wing' series has instances of that happening.

As to the Interdictor, that is unrelated to his assertion and my counterpoint. thought the argument was generating a gravity well strong enough to warp space/time... several interdictors around the fleet would generate a field strong enough to do this. if going by the books of course.

Feddie ground troops seem to have existed at one point, but disappeared by the time of TNG. Most likely "Security Force" fills an identical role but is a more politically correct terminolegy than "Marines", much like the UN's classification of its military assets.Nope, Gene Roddenberry vehemetly argued against the exsistance of "Federation Ground Troops". and 'Security Force' was just Security personnel. watch ST:TOS even in combat situations (first encounter with the Gorn, hand to hand with Klingons) it was always security, not infantry. even in the movies, the guys in the funky armor was 'security'

this was a sticking point to my RP group. the Kingons and Romulans had shock troops and other infantry, but the Feds did not.

then there are instances where Stormtroopers use their carbines in full auto mode. Stackpoles 'X-Wing' series has instances of that happening.

thought the argument was generating a gravity well strong enough to warp space/time... several interdictors around the fleet would generate a field strong enough to do this. if going by the books of course.

Nope, Gene Roddenberry vehemetly argued against the exsistance of "Federation Ground Troops". and 'Security Force' was just Security personnel. watch ST:TOS even in combat situations (first encounter with the Gorn, hand to hand with Klingons) it was always security, not infantry. even in the movies, the guys in the funky armor was 'security'

this was a sticking point to my RP group. the Kingons and Romulans had shock troops and other infantry, but the Feds did not.

First paragraph- thanks

Second- No... All gravitational fields, from that of a black hole to that of a quark, warps space-time. That is what gravity is--a warping of space-time. The difference between the Interdictor and a tractor beam or artificial gravity producer is only a matter of scale and design purpose.

3rd/4th- They are deployed as infantry when infantry are needed. Whether that is their intended purpose or not is fairly irrelevant. However, I will conceed the point that their primary purpose and the reason for the corps' creation is as a security force.

I really have no idea how most ST and SW weaponry compare. They both of shields, missile and beam weaponry. A single ImpStar can totally raze an entire planet, but I remember episodes where the Enterprise-D drilled kilometer deep holes into a planet's crust to release CO2. I don't know how they compare. I'm gonna offer some numbers though. Just so I hope everyone's on the same page.

WEAPON PLATFORMS
Soveriegn-class has 14 phaser arrays and 4 torpedo launchers (2 fore, 2 aft). ImpStar has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons.

SUBLIGHT SPEEDS
The Federation classifies "full impulse" as .25c. I don't know any more specific.
In the Corellian Trilogy, an interdiction field was put around the entire Corellian system. It was said it would take 2 months for a New Republic ship to cross from the outskirts of the system to Corellia at sub-light speed.
The average distance from the Sun to Pluto ~ 3.6 billion miles. Corellia is a temperate world like Earth so we'll say it's just shy of 100 million miles from its sun. That leaves 3.5 billion miles to cross in 2 months. Doing the math, that makes NR sub-light speed ~ 1million meters/s, or .004c.
Feel free to challenge my math.

LIGHT SPEEDS
Voyager had to travel 70,000 light years to get home. They frequently mentioned that trip taking 70+ years.
Star Wars takes place over an entire galaxy. Assuming one similar in size to the Milky Way, they're able to cross similar distances in weeks, maybe months, rather than years.

As a random note, given the stellar history of Starfleet engineering safety and design, wouldn't the Sovereign probably have exploded or been taken over by its own holodeck or stuck in another-goddamn-timeloop-because-we-can't-think-of-a-decent-plot before the Star Destroyer ever turned up?

As a random note, given the stellar history of Starfleet engineering safety and design, wouldn't the Sovereign probably have exploded or been taken over by its own holodeck or stuck in another-goddamn-timeloop-because-we-can't-think-of-a-decent-plot before the Star Destroyer ever turned up?
If it was any random Sovereign, of course. But this is the Enterprise with all the convenient escapes and Solo-esque luck that comes with the name.

God, I can't believe I'm actually adding to this stupidity, but here goes.

2 heretofore overlooked ST advantages:

1. Time travel. Never happened in Star Wars movies. A junky old Klingon ship piloted by a human crew managed it. Checkmate.


2. Also, think about it. We know the Empire, upon seeing a strange ship of strange design, would desire to capture it and it's crew. Bad guys always do that. They always will. The Enterprise crew will be confined in an overly elaborate and easily escapable way.

Data, easily smarter than anyone in the SW universe (you've heard Lucas' dialogue,) would figure out how to blow the frigging thing up from the inside, probably by using some part of his anatomy to override some system or other, "I assure you, Captain, the device is fully functional."

Picard would stoically withstand any tortures the Empire dishes out "There are FOUR droids!"

Riker would find some weird looking alien chick and either strike out comically or end up in the sack with her. He later comes down with a bad case of mitoclorions (or however they're spelled,) leading to a series of excruciatingly overacted flashbacks. Riker never wore a jimmy.

Geordi would do whatever Data told him to do, like the bitch he is, with a grin and a "that just might work, Data!"

Worf would easily kick some Storm Trooper ass, picking up a discarded lightsaber in the process. Nerds everywhere mess themselves at the sight of a Klingon saber-duelling,

Wesley will die. The Empire will clone him...and kill all the clones.

Troy would constantly be bugged by hallucinations, telepathic communications, and fornication offers from Yoda. She will wear unflattering clothing and generally get in the way.

When all is said and done, the crew will share a hearty belly laugh.

Next Week:

Stupider Speech Impediment: Vader or Gorn?

The Sovereign class all the way. Star Wars weapons are pathetically weak, and they are quite primitive as well. Just because a Star Destroyer is large doesn't mean it has the firepower or the shielding capabilities, or even the sensor capabilities. Not to mention that most Star Trek weapons have a max range of 300,000 km, now I've noticed on several occasions that in Star Wars their fights are around 200 meters or less.

God, I can't believe I'm actually adding to this stupidity, but here goes.

It's entertainment. And the only stupidity is that put forth by rabid Trekkies

2 heretofore overlooked ST advantages:

Should be good.

1. Time travel. Never happened in Star Wars movies. A junky old Klingon ship piloted by a human crew managed it. Checkmate.

Then you concede that Trek can't compare to Wars in a stand up fight. Also if time travel were so bloody common and useful why wasn't it used to fight the Borg, or the Dominion or any other bad guy of the week?


2. Also, think about it. We know the Empire, upon seeing a strange ship of strange design, would desire to capture it and it's crew. Bad guys always do that. They always will. The Enterprise crew will be confined in an overly elaborate and easily escapable way.

What movies have you been watching? The Galactic Empire deals with threats or perceived threats with lethal force. The E-E would show up and send some message of peace, the ISD captain would demand their surrender to the Empire, Picard would take offense and attack and then the ISD would blow the E-E to atoms.

Data, easily smarter than anyone in the SW universe (you've heard Lucas' dialogue,) would figure out how to blow the frigging thing up from the inside, probably by using some part of his anatomy to override some system or other, "I assure you, Captain, the device is fully functional."

Say it with me now, Suspension of Disbelief. You can't blame poor dialogue on Lucas.

However SW reguarily creates fully sentient droids, whereas in Trek Data is an anomaly. Data has never displayed the abilites of C-3P0 to translate languages, "I'm fluent in over 6 million forms of communication", he 3P0 has also displayed the ability to decipher and then translate unknown languages by himself in the EU. R2-D2 can hack the military computers of the Invisible Hand and Death Star in seconds. Comparable tasks in Trek take a massive shipboard computer.

Let's not mention that Palpatine orchestrated a galactic war, playing both sides for fools to come into power as Emperor. Far more impressive than Data spewing technobabble or Wesley making a tiny tractor beam.

Picard would stoically withstand any tortures the Empire dishes out "There are FOUR droids!"

Which is what he's screaming after being tortured by one Imperial droid after being mind probed by Darth Vader for the information he needs.


Worf would easily kick some Storm Trooper ass, picking up a discarded lightsaber in the process. Nerds everywhere mess themselves at the sight of a Klingon saber-duelling,

Worf punches one Stormie, gets shot, growls then gets his arms ripped off by Chewbacca.

Wesley will die. The Empire will clone him...and kill all the clones.

He deserves nothing else.


When all is said and done, the crew will share a hearty belly laugh.

That would be the ISD crew of course.

The Sovereign class all the way. Star Wars weapons are pathetically weak, and they are quite primitive as well. Just because a Star Destroyer is large doesn't mean it has the firepower or the shielding capabilities, or even the sensor capabilities. Not to mention that most Star Trek weapons have a max range of 300,000 km, now I've noticed on several occasions that in Star Wars their fights are around 200 meters or less.

Again, people, read the thread first, this has been refuted earlier.

God, I can't believe I'm actually adding to this stupidity, but here goes.

2 heretofore overlooked ST advantages:

1. Time travel. Never happened in Star Wars movies. A junky old Klingon ship piloted by a human crew managed it. Checkmate.

So..... exactly how does this help them? Do they go back in time and attack the ISD there. Oh wait, it still blows them to pieces.

2. Also, think about it. We know the Empire, upon seeing a strange ship of strange design, would desire to capture it and it's crew. Bad guys always do that. They always will. The Enterprise crew will be confined in an overly elaborate and easily escapable way.

We do? Beyond the point that this again, is just trying to get around the question.

Data, easily smarter than anyone in the SW universe (you've heard Lucas' dialogue,) would figure out how to blow the frigging thing up from the inside, probably by using some part of his anatomy to override some system or other, "I assure you, Captain, the device is fully functional."

A technobabble solution is ST's only hope, problem is B&B aren't writing this, so its a no go.

Picard would stoically withstand any tortures the Empire dishes out "There are FOUR droids!"

And then promptly be executed, they were about to do it to Leia.

Worf would easily kick some Storm Trooper ass, picking up a discarded lightsaber in the process. Nerds everywhere mess themselves at the sight of a Klingon saber-duelling,

Because stormtroopers just run into battle with archaic swords screaming at the top of thier lungs carrying easily lost lightsabers, right?

Maybe you should join the writing staff for the next ST series.

The Sovereign class all the way. Star Wars weapons are pathetically weak, and they are quite primitive as well.

Do yourself a favor and pull your head out of your ass and actually watch the SW movies. Then maybe you won't call a patrol ship(the Slave 1) effortlessly vaping asteroids in AOTC with its blsaters pathetically weak, or call the seismic charge which causes gigatons worth of damage pathetically weak, or the vaping of 40m asteroids in ESB with an ISDs light anti-fighter guns weak or the destruction of Alderaan weak.

And just because the tech looks old doesn't make it primitive. And to judge something by its looks rather than its substance is a giant style over substance fallacy.

Just because a Star Destroyer is large doesn't mean it has the firepower or the shielding capabilities, or even the sensor capabilities.

True, just look at a Borg cube. It's much larger than an ISD but its displayed firepower and shields are no match for that of a Star Destroyer. Read the thread and you'll find my derivative of a 2 teraton max yield for an ISDs heavy guns based off of the canon BDZ operation. Trek's most powerful weapons, its torpedoes, top out in the low megaton range.

Not to mention that most Star Trek weapons have a max range of 300,000 km, now I've noticed on several occasions that in Star Wars their fights are around 200 meters or less.

Again watch the movies. If you do you'll see that in ROTJ the fleets are exchanging fire at thousands of kilometers range and that point-blank range is hundreds of km. While in Trek most combat takes place at under 10km.

And note that in the canon ROTS:ICS a Venator-class Star Destroyer's main guns have a max effective range of 10 light-minutes, 600 times that of your 1 light-second max ST range which is hardly ever used.

Oh please, Trekkies, cut the crap. All of vehicles of the Star Wars universe are practically built for major sustained warfare. Even the old Republic vehicles are superior to anything Trek could throw at them. (Well maybe not a borg ship.)

A star destroyer is a hybrid carrier/battleship and has more armor and as much shielding as an attempt at Star Trek's "battleship" or carrier.

It would be decimated by heavy sustained firepower, or constant attacks by multiple enemy aircraft.

EVERYBODY has shields. And trek's weapons are **** with fancy names. Anti-matter charges would be mother****ing massive explosions, not little torpedo explosions that they show.

Trek has one big problem, the weapons can't even begin to match the dialoge they spout out.

In fact, the ONLY thing Trek's ship have is more manuverablility. Which isn't that big of a deal when you have swarms of fighters harrassing you.

A star destroyer is a hybrid carrier/battleship and has more armor and as much shielding as an attempt at Star Trek's "battleship" or carrier.

Actually, to be nitpicky, an ISD as strictly battleship. The SW Universe does have dedicated carriers, a carrier/battleship combo would be more along the lines of the Venators (The ROTS SD's) then the Imperators.

Trek has one big problem, the weapons can't even begin to match the dialoge they spout out.

Actually, I don't think they overpower thier weapons in dialogue at all, more the fans.

Sorry I'm late with this, but felt I had to reply...

The good guys always win because they fight bad guys they are the equal of.

No, they don't. It wouldn't make exciting books/films/comics that way. Is the Enterprise the equal of the Borg? Is the Rebellion the equal of the Galactic Empire? Is Harry Potter equal to Lord Voldemort? No, they're all vastly inferior. They win because they are "good", and it is demanded in fiction that the "good" guys win (usually). That's why they have getouts like Reversing the Polarity to the Quantum Phase Inducers, Exhaust ports with a side route for proton torpedoes to the main reactor, and silly excuses about love or something. So the goodies can beat a superior foe.

However, the goodies do tend to fight baddies that exist in the same fictional universe, so the two are compatible. This debate doesn't describe two compatible things.

There's also a strange level of anthropomorphism going on here. Equipment is not 'good' or 'bad;' would you also argue that a Sherman tank would defeat a King Tiger in one-one one combat in an open field because the King Tiger is 'evil?' That a Soviet-era MiG-29 would have no chance against a Sopworth Camel? That the battleship Yamato would easily be defeated against Nelson's fleet at Trafalgar?

You seem to be confusing Real Life with Fiction. In real life the goodies only win because they're the ones who write about it afterwards; there's no intrinsic rules dictating which side must win.

You seem to be taking a facetious five line post very seriously, by the way ;)

No, they don't. It wouldn't make exciting books/films/comics that way. Is the Enterprise the equal of the Borg? Is the Rebellion the equal of the Galactic Empire? Is Harry Potter equal to Lord Voldemort? No, they're all vastly inferior.

I meant 'the equal of' as in the villians powers are within their ability to counter, not exactly equal. John McClane could not defeat Galactus because John McClane's hero powers [um, being smart, having a gun and sweating a lot] can't in any way be used to counter Galactus' powers. Bambi could not beat the Leveller from Fern Gully because Bambi has nothing he can use against it.

They win because they are "good", and it is demanded in fiction that the "good" guys win (usually). That's why they have getouts like Reversing the Polarity to the Quantum Phase Inducers, Exhaust ports with a side route for proton torpedoes to the main reactor, and silly excuses about love or something. So the goodies can beat a superior foe.

But the goodies only ever face a foe it's possible for them to defeat. If, as at Wolf 359 in Trek, the goodies are against a foe they cannot defeat, they will lose. If the foe is so beyond their ability to counter that they have no ability to defeat them, they will always lose. Only crappy fiction does what you're saying; in good fiction the good guys must push themselves to the limit and out-fight or out-think an enemy to beat them through courage and hard graft, not just radiate niceness until they fuck off like it's an episode of Care Bears.

Anyway, who are you to say who the 'good guy' is in this situation? Why should it be the Feddy ship?

You seem to be confusing Real Life with Fiction. In real life the goodies only win because they're the ones who write about it afterwards; there's no intrinsic rules dictating which side must win.

Why should fiction be any different? In Trek, the Feddies sentence civilians in military courts, hang their own people out to dry for the sake of political expediency [the Maquis] and have attempted genocide against at least two other sentient races [The Founders and the Borg]. They hardly qualify as the starry-eyed good guys.

All I know is a Reman Warbird could kill ANY vessel in the Star Wars universe. Perfect cloak with the ability to fire while it is engaged, shitloads of torpedo bays and disruptor banks, enhanced shielding, and best of all the thaleron weapon. Give me a Reman Warbird over a Death Star ANY day.

So..... exactly how does this help them? Do they go back in time and attack the ISD there. Oh wait, it still blows them to pieces.



We do? Beyond the point that this again, is just trying to get around the question.



A technobabble solution is ST's only hope, problem is B&B aren't writing this, so its a no go.



And then promptly be executed, they were about to do it to Leia.



Because stormtroopers just run into battle with archaic swords screaming at the top of thier lungs carrying easily lost lightsabers, right?

Maybe you should join the writing staff for the next ST series.

Wow. You really put me in my place :rolleyes:

Reread what I wrote and think again about your serious response.

With regards to Storm Troopers:

By the time episodes IV, V, and VI roll around, it's clear that the Empire has neglected to replace the clones with younger models. They're slow-witted, inaccurate and prone to crashing speedbikes in their search for farmer's markets. They have no superhuman strength and their firearms have never ever vaporized someone.

Worf is naturally faster, stronger, and more pimp-like that even extra-ordinary humans. Most-pimplike moment? "Sir, I must protest. I am not a merry man!"

Physically, he's just a step below a Wookie in strength and body odor. His weapon has the power to vaporize a humanoid instantly and has a special frappe setting. You know he's gonna growl like a washed up 70's band groupie with a tracheotomy who has just bought herself a particularly interesting sexual apparatus when he picks up a light saber that will conveninetly and inexplicably be left right where he needs it.

(gasps for breath.)

Meanwhile, it will be revealed that C3PO wasn't gay after all. All along R2D2 was a chickbot. It's a little known fact that humaniform or anthropomorphous robots like to stick it to something that looks like a can.

There. Explain that away with your science!

and then there's this quote:

Say it with me now, Suspension of Disbelief. You can't blame poor dialogue on Lucas.

No. I blame it on the character, since if my belief is suspended, the words are the character's alone. Therefore any mental deficiencies which may be displayed are striclty the parlance of the person speaking the words. So, what was your point?

Where was I? Oh yeah, stay out of my booze cabinet!

All I know is a Reman Warbird could kill ANY vessel in the Star Wars universe. Perfect cloak with the ability to fire while it is engaged, shitloads of torpedo bays and disruptor banks, enhanced shielding, and best of all the thaleron weapon. Give me a Reman Warbird over a Death Star ANY day.

The Reman warbird that needs 'targeting wings' and a huge charging period to hit a warship a hundred yards directly in front of it and is apparently such a bad shot it has to close to within one ship length before firing so the enemy can hit it with blind luck by firing at random...

...That Reman Warbird?

The Reman warbird that needs 'targeting wings' and a huge charging period to hit a warship a hundred yards directly in front of it and is apparently such a bad shot it has to close to within one ship length before firing so the enemy can hit it with blind luck by firing at random...

...That Reman Warbird?

Those were not "targeting wings" by the way, they were EMITTER WINGS, and it's propulsion systems were DISABLED by having a HUGE ASS SHIP SMASH INTO IT ON FULL IMPLUSE, it couldn't move, so they engaged the thaleron generator at that range. They usually use it on entire planets, one little molecule of that crap can kill over 800 people.

Now, speaking of "targeting" or "scanning" what's the deal with that star destroying not being able to detect the milenium falcon on it's hull? they can't even detect when they've gained extra mass?!? In Enterprise there was this episode where the ship detected a CLOAKED MINE that made contact on the hull. So what's up with that?

Those were not "targeting wings" by the way, they were EMITTER WINGS, and it's propulsion systems were DISABLED by having a HUGE ASS SHIP SMASH INTO IT ON FULL IMPLUSE, it couldn't move, so they engaged the thaleron generator at that range. They usually use it on entire planets, one little molecule of that crap can kill over 800 people.

Now, speaking of "targeting" or "scanning" what's the deal with that star destroying not being able to detect the milenium falcon on it's hull? they can't even detect when they've gained extra mass?!? In Enterprise there was this episode where the ship detected a CLOAKED MINE that made contact on the hull. So what's up with that?

Admit it. You have footie pajamas, don't you?

Admit it. You have footie pajamas, don't you?

Don't avoid the subject matter, and no I do not.

Those were not "targeting wings" by the way, they were EMITTER WINGS

So why did he say 'deploy targeting wings' if they weren't targeting wings? Does Shinzon not know what the parts of his own ship do?

and it's propulsion systems were DISABLED by having a HUGE ASS SHIP SMASH INTO IT ON FULL IMPLUSE, it couldn't move, so they engaged the thaleron generator at that range.

So? He started the engagement at that range.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/Nemesis-19.jpg

Now, speaking of "targeting" or "scanning" what's the deal with that star destroying not being able to detect the milenium falcon on it's hull? they can't even detect when they've gained extra mass?!?

Why the hell would they need a capability to scan a small spot on the hull behind the bridge? Modern warships can't detect magnetic mines attached to their hull either. The fact that a ship doesn't have an ability that would be damn-near useless given the amount of equipment it would require proves nothing. How come the Enterprise doesn't have security cameras?

And how does being unable to detect a small object on the back of the bridge remove the ISD's immense advantage in speed, shielding and heavy weapons?

First of all, I don't see any advantages any weapons in Star Wars has what so ever. All this made-up non-cannon crap doesn't apply, which is really why Star Trek and Star Wars can't be compared because there's not enough raw technical data from Star Wars. I love them both, but when it comes to technological capability I always have to choose Star Trek. The way I see it is like this: Phasers vaporize fully grown adult people, blasters leave scorch marks. I wish Trekkies and Warsies would stop bickering and get together and make something great, I know we can do it.

First of all, I don't see any advantages any weapons in Star Wars has what so ever. All this made-up non-cannon crap doesn't apply

The Episode 2 ICS is canon. 200 Gigatons per shot for an Acclamator, a troop transport more primative than the ISD. It has a peak shield dissapation of 70 trillion gigawatts and SW ships can travel halfway across a [i]galaxy in hours or days, whereas it was commonly said it would take Voyager 70 years to crawl home at maximum speed.

Phasers vaporize fully grown adult people

Do they? Where's the vapour, then?

Blasters leave scorch marks.

And blow smoking holes in concrete, whereas phasers infamously can't shoot through light packing crates.

I'm not going to argue with anything before here, because I agree - it should work like you're saying. Sadly, it usually doesn't.

Anyway, who are you to say who the 'good guy' is in this situation? Why should it be the Feddy ship?

In the Star Trek I've watched (Original series and TNG, not really Voyager, DS9 or Enterprise) the Federation were generally considered good, and if they strayed from that the Enterprise and her crew were always there to put it back on the excessively-saccharine path of Truth and Light. The Enterprise was always portrayed as good, even if her crew stumbled on the odd moral dilemma on the way. (If Trek's got darker since TNG then good - it needed it! If I'm misremembering stuff then sorry...)

The Galactic Empire is always portrayed as evil and authoritarian, and the Star Destroyers are part of the force they use to maintain their rule; hence, baddies. I never really understood what was so bad about them, but I'm probably just missing something.

In a proper stand-up fight (when did the Enterprise ever do one of them?) I don't know who'd win. We don't really know the capabilities of an ISD (other than guestimating the laser power from a two second special effect, and from the X-Wing games) to compare to the Enterprise (whose specifications are well documented in all the technical books). Without that it's all just making it up. Of course, this is fiction, so it's all just made up anyway...

EDIT: OK, the Enterprise's specs are badly documented in all the technical books. Fair enough, we're now comparing two badly documented fictional starships ;)

(whose specifications are well documented in all the technical books)

Eee...You should look at those again, noting the technical manual makes some dreadful scientific errors and the diagram of the Enterprise in it has no cargo bays, meaning Worf managed to break his spine nowhere. The TM is dismissed as non-canon 'speculation' by the people who *wrote* it.

First of all, I don't see any advantages any weapons in Star Wars has what so ever.

Of course you don't. That would mean your side loses.

All this made-up non-cannon crap doesn't apply,

Please read the thread and notice the SW canon policy that was noted several times. The DK books are just below the movies in the canon order and since they don't contradict them that means that troop transports have 200GT MTLs, CW-era Star Destroyers have 10 light-minute range and that Slave 1 could curb stomp the E-E.

which is really why Star Trek and Star Wars can't be compared because there's not enough raw technical data from Star Wars.

Oh really? I suggest you take a look here then: www.theforce.net/swtc And tell that to Dr. Saxton.

I love them both, but when it comes to technological capability I always have to choose Star Trek.

Based on your preferance for style over substance.

The way I see it is like this: Phasers vaporize fully grown adult people, blasters leave scorch marks.

Please note that phasers 'make things disappear into thin air' and don't vaporize them. If they vaporized them people standing next to them would have 3rd degree burns from scalding and the room would fill with you know, vapor.

And blasters can punch through blast doors(ANH detention block scene) and can blow torso sized chunks out of concrete walls(ANH Docking Bay 94).

And the Scimitar (Reman-warbird) is far less powerfull than the Death Star. Sure the Scimitar has some fancy, slow firing weird radiation emiter with an exposed power core that can be destroyed with a handgun and has some perfect cloak, but it can't blow up a fucking planet through an insanely strong planetary shield(Alderaan).

Besides Imperial ships can detect gravity (detecting mass shadows and the like) so would be able to find the Scimitar even when cloaked and blow the hell out of it. After all it was disabled by a few kT of kinetic energy with 70% shields when the E-E rammed it, a few hundred gigatons should destroy it quite nicely.

And of course the DS2 could always hit it with its superlaser, but I suppose you think it could survive that don't you?

First of all, I don't see any advantages any weapons in Star Wars has what so ever. All this made-up non-cannon crap doesn't apply, which is really why Star Trek and Star Wars can't be compared because there's not enough raw technical data from Star Wars. I love them both, but when it comes to technological capability I always have to choose Star Trek. The way I see it is like this: Phasers vaporize fully grown adult people, blasters leave scorch marks. I wish Trekkies and Warsies would stop bickering and get together and make something great, I know we can do it.

Shut up Trekkie. SW fan's can't handle your raging socialism and bad concept of science. This is why SW doesn't bother with technical data. We know its is just a story device. A DAMNED good story device. But just that.

Why don't you take a look at your screen shots again. Those weapon emplacements are shooting out of fucking force-field windows. No need to shoot through the hull. Point of fact, whether or not they need to shoot through the wall or not, we clearly see the bolt come through the wall.



Just shows that the TradeFed BBs are more powerful than Venators and the other CIS ships. They unlike the others can keep their shields up after hours of continual bombardment.
My point was that if they turn down their weapons they will, never, ever reach the watt threshhold needed to overcome the Trade Federation Battleship's shield making those vessels completely invincible on the field.

Actually the biggest explosion we see is the one after a Venator blows a CIS frigate in half. I just remembered that there was wreckage of CIS ships and plenty of Munificents and Recuscants getting their asses handed to them in tiny pieces by the Venators. While true, we don't know what exploded there. If I take a handgun and open fire on an oil tanker truck, nobody would seriously contend that example to be an accurate representation of the gun's firepower. Why then should we take an example of a shot against a volatile target such as another vessel loaded with weapons, fuel, etc. as an accurate sample? Against non volatile targets we see explosions on par with rocket propelled grenades and we see the occassional catostrophic hit, I think it far more likely that the lower end ones as a representative sample because the higher end ones are against noticably volatile targets. You will find at SD.net warsies use this argument frequently against other universes, such as Babylon 5 for example.


You're just talking about the VentStar/IH broadside duel. In which I must say the the IH was crippled and damaged enough that it would break in half later on.
Yes, crippled by shots with all the firepower of a bazooka.


And that the ROTS:ICS says that the IH's quad guns can cause a Magnitude 10 earthquake, which is equivalent to 1 teraton.
ICS says alot of things and many of them are demonstrably false.

Also that the VentStar wouldn't want to destroy the IH as it has the fucking Supreme Chancellor aboard.
Right, and that explains the weak ass shots fired at all the other ships how?


So all of this is just one giant anomaly and can't be used as a normal instance of SW firepower, let alone the upper limit on it.
Bollocks. This is not a giant anomaly, this is about a full half of the highest level of space combat canon in the show. You also can't simply ignore any inconvenient examples as they appear.

And thet weren't firing pea shooters. The Republic was wasting the Seperatist ships by blowing them to itty bitty pieces. Only the anomalous broadside between the VentStar and IH has the small explosions.
None of the explosions were particularly large. The ones we saw close up tended to be quite small in fact. Let me give you an example of just what level of firepower we are talking here. The nuclear bomb detonated at Trinity, the first nuclear device tested by the united states, weighed in at about 45 kilotons. It vaporized a steel tower many miles from the detination. The fact that a shot with the destructive force of a hand grenade punched through the hull of a ship that supposedly can take gigatons of firepower at a time is insane if you try to accept both propositions as fact. The highest canon, grenade yields, wins out over lesser canon, ICS, and we are left with grenade yield weapons being viable and effective weapons. If it does not mesh with lower canon, it overwrites it.


Remember that shield I mentioned they were fighting under? Wait, of course not as you realize that that destroys your range argument.
What evidence is there that they were under a shield? If enemy craft can get under a shield that easily, what is the bloody point of having planetary shields at all?

The ISD and Death Star have the same type of reactor. If you scale the Death Star's down to ISD size you get a firepower in the gigaton range at the lowest end and petaton range at the highest.
Bollocks. Just because they have the same type of reactor does not grant them equatable firepower levels.

And it is well established that ISDs can perform a BDZ alone in under an hour. And a BDZ involves terminating all life and destroying all natural resources including mines and even fisheries. To kill all water life you'd have to vaporize water to a great depth, for a planet like Earth this would require ~1e27 Joules. Dividing by 64 HTLs on an ISD2 we get 1.56e25 Joules per gun, over an hour at 1 shot per 2 seconds we get 1800 shots, that gives us 8.68e21 Joules per gun/per shot at presumably max power. That's ~2 teratons per max yield shot. Have a nice day. That is total bullshit. You would not have to vaporize all water to kill all aquatic life. In actuality, you would not actually have to vaporize any water to kill all aquatic life.


No you couldn't. Let's say you use six-hundred 500MT torpedoes. That's 300,000 megatons or 3e5 MT, you need at least 1e9MT to sterilze a planet. You could do something like this Yes, if you literally must sterilize all life, you would probably need more. However, only fools would waste their time sterilizing all life. Destroying everything larger than microbes takes considerably less effort.

What makes you think that the re-distribution must be visible? The temerature of the hull may never exceed that needed to radiate in the visible spectrum while still spreading the heat. It wouldn't need be visible but it would preclude any damage focal points because all damage would be evenly spread, as opposed to an energy bold punching clean through the outer hull.


At the speed at which they were destroyed and wound up disappearing with no rubble it doesn't matter if they were blasted apart or vaped through conduction as the stress heating of that much matter blowing through the rock would vaporize it anyway. But you see, the energy requirements needed for vapoirzation of solid material are far greater than simply fragmentation of solid material. There is nothing to support the higher end calculations and the 200 GT feet incident as well as the grenade broadside indicate far lower yields.


Yes it would. What's your point? Rapid heating and cooling of materials, such as would be the case in ejecting a large amount of material into space tends to result in fragile materials lessening to a greater extent the amount of energy needed to blow them apart.

But the part we do see doesn't show the effects that would be present if there was any significant damage to the crust as in this picture. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/ForeShadow-Planet.jpg)
So we assume the science officer in question wasn't a total putz and that much of the damage he was detecting on sensors came from parts of the planet we didn't see. The dialogue now matches the screenshot.

Since it took a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships to mildly damage the Founder planet in "The Die is Cast". I doubt that a Sovereign could BDZ a planet alone in under an hour. I'd say 30 of the crust is more than mild damage.

And yet we never see an NX-class ship display planet destroying firepower as it would have if it were 1/1000 as powerful as the Death Star. At most we get megaton range from when it blew up that rubble pile on that moon.
But do we see anything that directly controdicts it? Btw, this line of argumentation was never serious to begin with. I was merely pointing out how taking random bits of dialogue can give whichever side wants it tremendous wanking material.

I don't know enough about B5 to debate the topic. But why don't you take it up at www.stardestroyer.net with people who know more than me.
No thank you, I am quite familiar with many of the people who post there and wish no association with them.

The reason why, and I will be completely honest about it, is that; no offense intened to you and forgive me for saying so but I have seen SD.net and in my personal opinion it is a hatefilled pool filled with (figurative) angry old men who mercilessly hound out anyone who questions the status quo. Slight differences of opinion get you ridiculed, insulted, attacked, and made an example of. The Horsemen as they are called run around editing other peoples posts, they being pinacles of juvanility. Hidden boards exist where members create threads soley for the purpose of insulting other people, many of whom aren't even on SD.net, whose only crime is having a difference of opinion.

As I opened with, I wouldn't normally post like this, I haven't for a long time, and in honesty it is places like SD and SB that make me reluctant to do so. I prefer to stay here where I can debate science fiction when I care to among people who won't give me the abuse that inevitably rises out of boards such as those.


My mistake.
No worries, it happens when I respond to three people in a post and don't bother marking it. :p


And would it be reacting with to produce several orders of magnitude more energy than the extra 60GW.
Indeed, and I was joking. :p


It's probably less than a terawatt as that is the most commonly heard Ent-D power generation figure.
Perhaps, but is the deflector not designed to channel abnormally large amounts of energy, such as BOBW?

The Sovereign Class would probably win on paper, but in reality the Sovereign would probably just try to "make contact" or "discuss it diplomatically" and get blown up while it's prancing about trying to do that. The Enterprise D got destroyed by a bird of prey for goodness sake!

Now im not into Star Trek at all (i am a big Star Wars fanboy though).
I odnt know about their technology but one thing i read was about fighting at warp speed. At the speeds you lads and ladies are talking about (i forget how fast but bloody fast it is) it would be impossible to target anyhitng going that fast. There is no way in hell (unless you a really lucky) that you could get an acurate shot off. Thn agian i dont know about star trek targeting.

It's not very practical.
Two ships at warp could fight. Logically they should only be able to use torpedoes, but I'm sure the ST writers crossed that line sometime.
Two ships in hyperspace can't fight or even acknowledge eachother. Once a ships in hyperspace it's totally undetectable until it returns to real-space.
I'm guessing a ship at warp could fire at a sublight ship kinda like a moving naval vessel can drop off mines and hit a sub. But what are they gonna do? Zip past the target while dropping acouple torps, keep going afew lightyears, and then turn around and do it again and again and again. Sooooo much energy wasted.
Maybe even a stationary ship could hit that warping ship, but that would require a hell of a lot of accuracy.

how bout we get some top weapons dudes etc to actually construct both. have a full blown fight between them just to show the trekkies that the ISD would kick their ass so bad that they would run home crying to their mommies!!!!!!!!!!

ST sux
SW rox

how bout we get some top weapons dudes etc to actually construct both. have a full blown fight between them just to show the trekkies that the ISD would kick their ass so bad that they would run home crying to their mommies!!!!!!!!!!

ST sux
SW rox

That's actually not a bad idea.

As long as we can agree on some figures for the power of weapons etc, I can create a computer simulation of a battle, experiment with what tactics would be best etc.

Seems to me though that the only way Enterprise would have a chance is by using its superior manuverability (WHY does it fly like it's a plane in an atmosphere?!), to stay in the Star Destroyer's weak areas behind the engines.

Point of fact, whether or not they need to shoot through the wall or not, we clearly see the bolt come through the wall.

There wasn't a wall there in the first place. It came through the firing forcefield window opening,


My point was that if they turn down their weapons they will, never, ever reach the watt threshhold needed to overcome the Trade Federation Battleship's shield making those vessels completely invincible on the field.

Which they essentially were. We do see one Venator docked with a TFBB in the battle, they were probably trying to capture it or somesuch.

While true, we don't know what exploded there. If I take a handgun and open fire on an oil tanker truck, nobody would seriously contend that example to be an accurate representation of the gun's firepower. Why then should we take an example of a shot against a volatile target such as another vessel loaded with weapons, fuel, etc. as an accurate sample?

Completely right. I was just saying that there were larger explosions. Good firepower establishing scenes are the asteroid destruction scenes in AOTC and ESB, Luke's surface strafing in ANH is also usefull.

Against non volatile targets we see explosions on par with rocket propelled grenades and we see the occassional catostrophic hit, I think it far more likely that the lower end ones as a representative sample because the higher end ones are against noticably volatile targets.

We see RPG firepower from handguns in ANH where Han's blaster blows torso sized chunks out of a concrete wall.http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg

In ANH when Luke strafes the Death Star surface he vapourizes enough armour and gives it enough KE to catch up to and envelop his X-Wing and cause thermal damage through its shields. If we be ultra conservative and say he vaped 1 m^3 of iron with each shot he expended ~60 GJ per shot, 7.63 MJ/kg to vape multiplied by 7870 kg. This is an extreme lower limit as he had to impart enough KE to make the vapor catch up to his X-Wing and retain its heat and since the Death Star's armor is most certainly tougher stuff than iron.

In ESB ISDs vaped ~40m diameter nickel-iron asteroids, which according to SD.net's handy Asteroid Destruction Calculator requires 479.1 kT. This is again a lower limit as the ISD never failed to vape an asteroid and did so in such a short time frame that the energy supplied was far greater than that needed to just vape the asteroid. This is also a lower limit on the light guns, not the much larger and more powerful heavy guns.

In AOTC we see Jango vape ~10m diameter asteroids effortlessly around Geonosis. These asteroids require about 2 kT to vape, the same blasters only cause small holes in the armor of Obi-Wan's star fighter.


Yes, crippled by shots with all the firepower of a bazooka.

As Feil mentioned earlier TLs are directed energy weapons and wouldn't create huge explosions like an omni-directional blast. What we see is just the vapourized armor expanding, we see none of the internal damage.

ICS says alot of things and many of them are demonstrably false.

Well then give examples and demonstrate how they are false. All the firepower in the books fits well with what we've seen onscreen so you'll have a tough time of it.


Right, and that explains the weak ass shots fired at all the other ships how?

It doesn't. But I addressed that argument above.

Bollocks. This is not a giant anomaly, this is about a full half of the highest level of space combat canon in the show. You also can't simply ignore any inconvenient examples as they appear.

You're right, we have to rationalize. But see above for why the shots appeared wimpy.

None of the explosions were particularly large. The ones we saw close up tended to be quite small in fact. Let me give you an example of just what level of firepower we are talking here. The nuclear bomb detonated at Trinity, the first nuclear device tested by the united states, weighed in at about 45 kilotons. It vaporized a steel tower many miles from the detination. The fact that a shot with the destructive force of a hand grenade punched through the hull of a ship that supposedly can take gigatons of firepower at a time is insane if you try to accept both propositions as fact. The highest canon, grenade yields, wins out over lesser canon, ICS, and we are left with grenade yield weapons being viable and effective weapons. If it does not mesh with lower canon, it overwrites it.

We've seen nuclear level firepower or more in the AOTC and ESB asteroid scenes and Hiroshima level firepower when Luke strafes the Death Star surface. And we've never seen the internal damage of the ships struck in ROTS.


What evidence is there that they were under a shield? If enemy craft can get under a shield that easily, what is the bloody point of having planetary shields at all?

ROTS:ICS and it was a surprise attack and the shields were raised after the Seperatist fleet arrived. Also the Republic fleet was trying to keep the IH from getting to hyperspace, they were doing so by literaly getting in front of it. It may not be the best way to do it but that's what they were doing.

You also seem to be forgetting when the Rebels and Imperials trade fire at thousands of km range in ROTJ and close to "point-blank" range at hundreds of km range.


Bollocks. Just because they have the same type of reactor does not grant them equatable firepower levels.

I'm not saying an ISD can blow up a planet. I'm saying that if you scale down the Death Star's reactor to an ISD size reactor and scale the power output down accordingly you get an output that fits with the other evidence.

That is total bullshit. You would not have to vaporize all water to kill all aquatic life. In actuality, you would not actually have to vaporize any water to kill all aquatic life.

Really? Then please explain how you intend to kill the chemosynthesizing ocean life around volcanic vents? Or how you intend to turn the surface of a planet into slag without vaporizing all the water?

Yes, if you literally must sterilize all life, you would probably need more. However, only fools would waste their time sterilizing all life. Destroying everything larger than microbes takes considerably less effort.

It would indeed take less effort. But the point of an BDZ is to terrorize other systems into obeying Imperial rule. That's why they go the whole 9 yards.

It wouldn't need be visible but it would preclude any damage focal points because all damage would be evenly spread, as opposed to an energy bold punching clean through the outer hull.

Intensity of the beam would be greater where it strikes, where it would do more damage to the armor before it has time to be spread out.

But you see, the energy requirements needed for vapoirzation of solid material are far greater than simply fragmentation of solid material.

At the speed at which the asteroids were destroyed the stress heating from the fragments shooting through the rest of the asteroid would vaporize it anyway. And the asteroids were vaporized, so the vaporization energy is the correct one to use.

There is nothing to support the higher end calculations and the 200 GT feet incident as well as the grenade broadside indicate far lower yields.

There is plenty to support gigaton-teraton yields. Just look at how much energy it takes to move an ISD at its observed accelerations here:http://www.theforce.net/swtc/power.html

Rapid heating and cooling of materials, such as would be the case in ejecting a large amount of material into space tends to result in fragile materials lessening to a greater extent the amount of energy needed to blow them apart.

Well then I guess it's too bad for you that they were vaporized.


So we assume the science officer in question wasn't a total putz and that much of the damage he was detecting on sensors came from parts of the planet we didn't see. The dialogue now matches the screenshot.

Really?

http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg

Then why isn't there brilliant nuclear level explosions from the omni-directional torpedoes? Why isn't there large portions of molten rock? Why isn't there any ejecta? Why is there only some weird ass clouds?

I'd say 30 of the crust is more than mild damage.

It would be more than mild damage. Too bad that 30% of the crust was never destroyed.

But do we see anything that directly controdicts it? Btw, this line of argumentation was never serious to begin with. I was merely pointing out how taking random bits of dialogue can give whichever side wants it tremendous wanking material.

Which is why visuals are more important.

Snip rant on SD.net and vs arguments

That's nice. In the future avoid vs arguments so you avoud looking like an idiot.


Perhaps, but is the deflector not designed to channel abnormally large amounts of energy, such as BOBW?

Fair enough.

Regarding use of time travel in warfare:

Star Trek: First Contact pretty conclusively demonstrated that when a vessel uses time travel to go back, it travels into an alternate universe, lest it create a paradox. The Enterprise existed, and the battle had occurred, even though if the Borg ship had *really* gone back in time, neither would have been the case, a paradox would have been created, and that would presumably have been curtains for the universe. The borg used an escape vessel to escape to a different universe to save their sorry collective asses. (Note that there was at least one autonomous unit that would have wanted to keep herself alive onboard the sphere.)

EVEN IF THAT IS NOT THE CASE: The ability of Federation ships to go back in time has never been shown to exceed a few centuries. If they go back in time a few centuries, and try to defeat the Republic, they will *still* be fighting a galactic power with a galactic resource base, which will have warships hundreds of times more powerful than Enterprise, and Enterprise will be fighting alone, unsupported, in unfamiliar territory, with no logistical base whatsoever... no spare warp cores, no new recruits, no new quantum torpedos, no replacement dilithium crystals, no new holobrothel programs to keep the men entertained while cruising around in warp trying to find and engage the enemy.


Regarding the use of faster-than-light to fight.
It has been demonstrated earlier that a ship traveling at warp cannot fire on a ship not traveling at warp. This means that the only usefullness of warp drive would be to avoid engagement. If the Enterprise must avoid engagment to "win" you might aswell be admitting that she would lose.


Regarding Deflector Shield Dish Superweapons of Doom.
Presumably, the shield dish is essentially a big capacitor. It can hold a large charge, and has the capability to expend that charge away from the ship (a very useful trick). With some innovative tweaking, the charge can be induced by the ship itself, and released at will, rather than just releasing every time the charge builds to a certain level.

That means that any energy they shoot out of the deflector dish has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere will be engines, weapons, and whatever power is needed to keep the shields up. The net energy / time expended by the Enterprise will be identical whether the use the deflector or not.

The deflector's usefullness comes from its abilitity to fire specialised frequencies (useful against frequency-dependant Trek warships) on powerful-enough levels to be usefull in very rare occasions.


Incidentally, I contend that Lukes strafing in ANH is fairly useless. We don't know how thick the hull plating was there, or what was behind it if it was thin enough for the X-Wing to punch through and damage something behind.

Shut up Trekkie. SW fan's can't handle your raging socialism and bad concept of science. This is why SW doesn't bother with technical data. We know its is just a story device. A DAMNED good story device. But just that.
Is that the way all SW-fans handle debates? Oow well, doesn't matter.

There wasn't a wall there in the first place. It came through the firing forcefield window opening,
You are wrong or you are lying, we clearly see the bolt punch through the wall.

We can see the hole it leaves clearly here:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor4.jpg

And we see it punching through here:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor2.jpg


Which they essentially were. We do see one Venator docked with a TFBB in the battle, they were probably trying to capture it or somesuch. Really? Then why would the seperatists not choose one those as their flagship? Turning down their firepower when there are vessels around with shields up would be suicidal, the only explanation is their weapons were that weak to begin with.


Completely right. I was just saying that there were larger explosions. Good firepower establishing scenes are the asteroid destruction scenes in AOTC and ESB, Luke's surface strafing in ANH is also usefull.
The fact sparks flew out of the ESB asteroid is good evidence of fragmentation rather than vaporization. If anything, the AOTC destruction scene is the giant anomoly and even that just shows the breaking apart of fairly weak asteroids by a weapon that defies at lest six of the laws of physics if taken simply as it appears.

We see RPG firepower from handguns in ANH where Han's blaster blows torso sized chunks out of a concrete wall.http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg
I've seen bigger explosions from consumer fireworks. Come to think of it, I've seen bigger explosions than the ones in ROTC from consumer fireworks. Never mind. That, first, does not appear to be concrete but compresed sand which requires far less force to break apart. Second, that is significantly less than an grenade.


In ANH when Luke strafes the Death Star surface he vapourizes enough armour and gives it enough KE to catch up to and envelop his X-Wing and cause thermal damage through its shields. If we be ultra conservative and say he vaped 1 m^3 of iron with each shot he expended ~60 GJ per shot, 7.63 MJ/kg to vape multiplied by 7870 kg. This is an extreme lower limit as he had to impart enough KE to make the vapor catch up to his X-Wing and retain its heat and since the Death Star's armor is most certainly tougher stuff than iron. Don't recal this scene but, as is becoming a theme, are we sure it was vaporized? The wall, for example, was simply blown apart.

In ESB ISDs vaped ~40m diameter nickel-iron asteroids, which according to SD.net's handy Asteroid Destruction Calculator requires 479.1 kT. This is again a lower limit as the ISD never failed to vape an asteroid and did so in such a short time frame that the energy supplied was far greater than that needed to just vape the asteroid. This is also a lower limit on the light guns, not the much larger and more powerful heavy guns. Evidence tends towards it being fragmented, not vaporized, and once again, given the debris field it was likelyt weak to begin with.

In AOTC we see Jango vape ~10m diameter asteroids effortlessly around Geonosis. These asteroids require about 2 kT to vape, the same blasters only cause small holes in the armor of Obi-Wan's star fighter. Which once again tends to point toward them merely being broken into small pieces.


As Feil mentioned earlier TLs are directed energy weapons and wouldn't create huge explosions like an omni-directional blast. What we see is just the vapourized armor expanding, we see none of the internal damage.
That would be true up until they were inside an atmoshphere, which they were once they punch through the hull. At this point the second law of thermodynamics makes itself known and the energy starts expanding to the surrounding matter. If it were nuclear level, the poor Clone trooper would not have been in pieces large enough to find, let alone standing.


Well then give examples and demonstrate how they are false. All the firepower in the books fits well with what we've seen onscreen so you'll have a tough time of it. Well, once again, that is false. We could rehash the battle between Slave 1 and Obi-Wan Kenobi on the landing platofrm where the warsie position a kid is trained well enough to turn down weapons to avoid vaping his father wasn't smart enough to turn them back up once his daddie was out of the way. The logical position is that the weapons just aren't that powerful which fits well with the brittle asteroid theory later.


It doesn't. But I addressed that argument above. You tried but they were shot down.


You're right, we have to rationalize. But see above for why the shots appeared wimpy. Or we can accept the evidence as we see it and rationalize why we have a handful example of much higher end firepower.


We've seen nuclear level firepower or more in the AOTC and ESB asteroid scenes and Hiroshima level firepower when Luke strafes the Death Star surface. And we've never seen the internal damage of the ships struck in ROTS. The only one example that might be considered nuclear level is the seismic mines in AOTC. However, we never see a weapon like them before or since.


ROTS:ICS and it was a surprise attack and the shields were raised after the Seperatist fleet arrived. Also the Republic fleet was trying to keep the IH from getting to hyperspace, they were doing so by literaly getting in front of it. It may not be the best way to do it but that's what they were doing.
A suprise attack shouldn't matter. If they had anyone halfway competent manning the sensors they would have been on before they made it inside its perimeter. If a suprise attack is all it takes to attack Coruscant, the seperatists could have devestated the Republic in one stroke by sending a single droid battleship to blow the crap out of the Senate when it was in session. That fact they didn't and would have if they had a chance tend to undermine the suprise attack planetary shield theory. More likely is the shield wasn't there or was offline for the duration fo the battle which would explain why they felt the need to get in front of the IH rather than simply let the shield contain it.

You also seem to be forgetting when the Rebels and Imperials trade fire at thousands of km range in ROTJ and close to "point-blank" range at hundreds of km range. It was closer than that. The fact the ships were in visible range of each other before they started firing undermines that premise too.



I'm not saying an ISD can blow up a planet. I'm saying that if you scale down the Death Star's reactor to an ISD size reactor and scale the power output down accordingly you get an output that fits with the other evidence.
But you cannot simply assume that the ISD reactor is a direct scale nor that a direct scale of the Death Star reactor would work. Though on the other hand, if this other evidence it supports is asteroid fragmentation and dynamite level high end weapons, perhaps the scaling would make sense.


Really? Then please explain how you intend to kill the chemosynthesizing ocean life around volcanic vents? Or how you intend to turn the surface of a planet into slag without vaporizing all the water?
Close range gamma emmissions. You would boil some water but nothing significant if they were carefully targetted. By the way, would you care to get the exact quote on BDZ because this whole BDZ thing smells of bullshit to me. Seeing as how you made me dig up the A matter of time thing, it seems only fair.


It would indeed take less effort. But the point of an BDZ is to terrorize other systems into obeying Imperial rule. That's why they go the whole 9 yards.
And exterminating everything larger than a microbe isn't terrifying enough? I'm pretty sure none of the worlds who might defy them are going to go "Damn! They destroyed everything larger than a bacteria on that world. Millions dead... But you know, they spared the microbes so it isn't that bad. We can resist and win, I think I'll live out my days as one of those microbes they spared."


Intensity of the beam would be greater where it strikes, where it would do more damage to the armor before it has time to be spread out. That is not true on a superconducting surface.


At the speed at which the asteroids were destroyed the stress heating from the fragments shooting through the rest of the asteroid would vaporize it anyway. And the asteroids were vaporized, so the vaporization energy is the correct one to use. You are assuming that the kinetic energy of the bolt alone is not what destroyed it which it very possibly could have been. Fragmentation is the safest guess, particularly in light of other evidence.


There is plenty to support gigaton-teraton yields. Just look at how much energy it takes to move an ISD at its observed accelerations here:http://www.theforce.net/swtc/power.html
Thanks for the link, it demonstrates you lied about what a BDZ is.

"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."

Destroy microbes my ass.

And by the way, unless you know the mass of a Star Destroyer, and you don't seeing as how it composed mostly of imaginary materials, you don't know the force needed to move it.


Well then I guess it's too bad for you that they were vaporized.
Or would have been too bad for me if they were.


Really?

http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg

Then why isn't there brilliant nuclear level explosions from the omni-directional torpedoes? Why isn't there large portions of molten rock? Why isn't there any ejecta? Why is there only some weird ass clouds?
What part of other side of the planet is confusing you?


It would be more than mild damage. Too bad that 30% of the crust was never destroyed.
As far as you know. Dialogue says otherwise.


Which is why visuals are more important. I couldn't agree more. They did more to sink warsie wank fests than a thousand logical arguments ever could.


That's nice. In the future avoid vs arguments so you avoud looking like an idiot.
Whatever you say chuckles. I could point out it is more than vs. debates, I could point out you can't post on SD.net without looking like something of an idiot, I could point out that when you have brain damaged simians running around with a free license to edit posts it doesn't get much dumber. But I won't point out these things because as has been demonstrated, logic is wasted on you.

See? I can degenerate to random insults too. Now, if you don't mind I would prefer some civility be kept here. I will refrain from taking shots at you so long as you grant me the same courtesy.

In the star trek universe the Galaxy Class starship enterprise was totally immune to laser weapons, they didn't even get through the navigation shields

a Galaxy Class Starship would tear an Imperial Starship into Shreds

The phasers alone would create massive damage across the ship and photon torpedoes could take out the bridge in one volley

a Sovereign class starship?

would obliterate it

In the star trek universe the Galaxy Class starship enterprise was totally immune to laser weapons, they didn't even get through the navigation shields

a Galaxy Class Starship would tear an Imperial Starship into Shreds

The phasers alone would create massive damage across the ship and photon torpedoes could take out the bridge in one volley

a Sovereign class starship?

would obliterate it

THis is what, the third time. Read the rest of the thread, this was refuted in the first damn page. It is clear from visuals that the weapons of SW are not lasers, just called lasers.

There seems to be a great deal of confusion regarding Star Trek weapon technology, and I decided to dig out the old "Star Trek Encyclopedia" for answers.

1. Photon Torpedoes are considered to be capable of many times greater destructive power than hydrogen weapons used durning the Romulan War. The devices work as a matter/antimatter reaction, similar to a warp core breach. The photon torpedoes on the Galaxy Class Enterprise have an effective range of 3.5 million kilometers as well, what the Sovereign Class has I have no idea (This book dates from 1996). The thing about photon torpedoes is that you can take out matter/antimatter modules to vary the performance of the torpedo, so that unecessary damage does not occur.

2. Shields play a greater role in Star Trek. It has been shown in episodes where a boarding party comes aboard, that even a phaser at medium setting can obliterate a ship. However the shields hold out against multiple photon torpedo attacks. I don't know the exact specs of the IDS's shields, but the movies seem to suggest the hulls provide a lot of the protection.

3. Handheld phasers can completely obliterate an object and can have a wide angle "shotgun" effect as shown in Return of the Archons in TOS. Lets see a SW blaster do that?

And before anyone whines about it not being "official", this book was written by Rick Berman and Michael Okuda as references for writers in ST, so I can pretty much say it's official.