NationStates Jolt Archive

, and I decided to dig out the old "Star Trek Encyclopedia" for answers.

And from that point on, your post is meaningless. The only canon, according to Paramount is TV and movies. No tech guides, no novels, no encyclopedias, nothing else.

I really think everyone is overfocusing on the technical elements of the conflict. In reality, were these two ships to meet, the outcome would surely be settled by intellectual property/trademark lawyers fielded by Paramount and Lucasfilm.

And they would be flying in Colonial Vipers fielded by the truly superior ship, the Battlestar: Galactica.

And from that point on, your post is meaningless. The only canon, according to Paramount is TV and movies. No tech guides, no novels, no encyclopedias, nothing else.

Ah yes, just an encyclopedia that only condenses the plethora of information on the stuff from the shows and movies, hmm? Hence why I did NOT list a power rate for the photon torpedoes, they have never been officially given one.

EDIT: I'll see if I can find the quotes for the episodes

just an encyclopedia that only condenses the plethora of information on the stuff from the shows and movies, hmm?

Its not from Paramount, so its essentially fanfiction.

Its not from Paramount, so its essentially fanfiction.

Hey, sorry I'm not enough of a junkie to memorize every line from every episode.
Those are the parameters they operate by, and I think I set pretty reasonable ones.

Could photon torpedoes tear through IDS shields? Who knows. However they are not nearly as weak as, "1000 to take out an asteroid" as you had claimed. What would the point be of even carrying them, to send people out in space burials as in the Star Trek movies?

I find it funny you can't acknowledge the rest of my post, just because I mentioned I referenced a book. I guess kiddies really don't read anymore.

You are wrong or you are lying, we clearly see the bolt punch through the wall.

We can see the hole it leaves clearly here:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor4.jpg

And we see it punching through here:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/benihana12/armor2.jpg

My mistake. So we have one shot that didn't display nuclear level yields, but several more that do. Quit trying to use single low events to set upper limits for SW firepower.

Really? Then why would the seperatists not choose one those as their flagship? Turning down their firepower when there are vessels around with shields up would be suicidal, the only explanation is their weapons were that weak to begin with.

Because a smaller vessel was better suited to the role of abducting Palpatine and escaping unnoticed. Normally General Grievous uses a Geonosian Dreadnaught for his flag ship, but such a large and powerful ship would just asct as a magnet for the Republic's firepower.

The fact sparks flew out of the ESB asteroid is good evidence of fragmentation rather than vaporization.

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/avengeresb2b3ri.gif
You were saying?

If anything, the AOTC destruction scene is the giant anomoly and even that just shows the breaking apart of fairly weak asteroids by a weapon that defies at lest six of the laws of physics if taken simply as it appears.

So the seismic charges are impossible in real life, well so are phasers, hyperdrive and subspace communications. But that doesn't stop us from analysing what we see on screen, SOD remember?

Seismic charges are likely a ground attack weapon( they would be devastating in that role) Jango was using them in a pinch around Geonosis. They happened to really fuck up large asteroids.


I've seen bigger explosions from consumer fireworks. Come to think of it, I've seen bigger explosions than the ones in ROTC from consumer fireworks. Never mind. That, first, does not appear to be concrete but compresed sand which requires far less force to break apart. Second, that is significantly less than an grenade.

It's a spaceport docking bay in which starships reqularily take off and land in. Tell me, would you make the space shuttle launch pad out of compressed sand or would you use something with more heat resistance? Concrete is a good substitute for whatever the SW galaxy uses. And you couldn't cause concrete to glow red and explode with anything short of a grenade now adays.

Don't recal this scene but, as is becoming a theme, are we sure it was vaporized? The wall, for example, was simply blown apart.

I suggest you watch ANH. Luke shoots the Death Star surface and big clouds of vapor rush up to envelop his X-Wing.


Evidence tends towards it being fragmented, not vaporized, and once again, given the debris field it was likelyt weak to begin with.

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/avengeresb2b3ri.gif

Nope, still being vaporized.


Which once again tends to point toward them merely being broken into small pieces.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/Wapoe/Image10.jpg
Vaped.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/Wapoe/Image13.jpg
Vaped.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/Wapoe/Image14.jpg
And vaped again.

That would be true up until they were inside an atmoshphere, which they were once they punch through the hull. At this point the second law of thermodynamics makes itself known and the energy starts expanding to the surrounding matter. If it were nuclear level, the poor Clone trooper would not have been in pieces large enough to find, let alone standing.

Again, we have one instance of low TL firepower. Compared to the other instances of higher TL firepower this must be rationalized. Such as I have done by saying that that one gun was low powered, while perhaps all of the others were fine. Which is reasonable given the IH was suffering from battle damage.

Well, once again, that is false. We could rehash the battle between Slave 1 and Obi-Wan Kenobi on the landing platofrm where the warsie position a kid is trained well enough to turn down weapons to avoid vaping his father wasn't smart enough to turn them back up once his daddie was out of the way. The logical position is that the weapons just aren't that powerful which fits well with the brittle asteroid theory later.

According the novelization Boba knew how to fly the Slave 1. Jango has been teaching him his trade since he was young, it's not a stretch to assume that Boba knew how to operate the guns. And you seem to forget that had they been at full power he would have killed his father, himself and destroyed the Slave 1 alogn with Kenobi.

Also since we never see the platform damaged, and that the AOTC:ITW says that the platforms are shielded it would make sense that the shields took most of the blast leaving only a part of it visible.

You tried but they were shot down.

I disagree.

Or we can accept the evidence as we see it and rationalize why we have a handful example of much higher end firepower.

The "handfull of much higher end firepower" are actually very common. It's the seemingly low yields in the Battle of Coruscant that are anomalous.

The only one example that might be considered nuclear level is the seismic mines in AOTC. However, we never see a weapon like them before or since.

There's the proton torpedoes in ANH which shook the horribly massive Death Star. And yes the explosion doesn't look that big but the OT:ICS describes them as "focused nuclear explosives" so we wouldn't see that much of an explosion as most of it was directed away from us.

And there's still the vaporized asteroid scenes.

A suprise attack shouldn't matter. If they had anyone halfway competent manning the sensors they would have been on before they made it inside its perimeter. If a suprise attack is all it takes to attack Coruscant, the seperatists could have devestated the Republic in one stroke by sending a single droid battleship to blow the crap out of the Senate when it was in session. That fact they didn't and would have if they had a chance tend to undermine the suprise attack planetary shield theory. More likely is the shield wasn't there or was offline for the duration fo the battle which would explain why they felt the need to get in front of the IH rather than simply let the shield contain it.

No one expected the Seperatists to be stupid enough to actually attack Coruscant. But either way it shows that the short ranges were anomalous not the norm.

It was closer than that. The fact the ships were in visible range of each other before they started firing undermines that premise too.

A few tens of km then. Yet that still represents greater range than Star Trek where ships don't engage each other till they are at <10km range.


But you cannot simply assume that the ISD reactor is a direct scale nor that a direct scale of the Death Star reactor would work. Though on the other hand, if this other evidence it supports is asteroid fragmentation and dynamite level high end weapons, perhaps the scaling would make sense.

It supports the vaporization of asteroids, BDZ operations, and their engine power.

Close range gamma emmissions. You would boil some water but nothing significant if they were carefully targetted. By the way, would you care to get the exact quote on BDZ because this whole BDZ thing smells of bullshit to me. Seeing as how you made me dig up the A matter of time thing, it seems only fair.

"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag
-Imperial Sourcebook, p.61"

These colossal, wedge-shaped behemoths, bristling with turboweapons and carrying entire TIE squadrons within them, each possess more firepower than the entire planetary forces of most worlds, and can reduce a planet surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours.
-Star Wars Technical Journal, vol.2, p.17

... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a through search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface.
-Scavenger Hunt, p.3

As instructed, I have remained behind until the last of our transports departed safely into hyperspace. Imperial Star Destroyers have so thoroughly blasted Dankayo that I fear for my safety, even in this deep-planet survival shelter.
-Scavenger Hunt, p.20

"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-A World to Conquor, Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p.256

It can destroy a worlds atmosphere, recuce a planet to molten slag, and in Hand of Thrawn duology it is mentioned that the planet Caamas was so badly damage after it was BDZed that it would be easier to terraform a new planet than it would be to restore Caamas.



And exterminating everything larger than a microbe isn't terrifying enough? I'm pretty sure none of the worlds who might defy them are going to go "Damn! They destroyed everything larger than a bacteria on that world. Millions dead... But you know, they spared the microbes so it isn't that bad. We can resist and win, I think I'll live out my days as one of those microbes they spared."

Not for the Empire no.

That is not true on a superconducting surface.

The fastest it could move the energy is at c. SW ships are so massive that even that is not fast enough to prevent localized damage to the armor.

You are assuming that the kinetic energy of the bolt alone is not what destroyed it which it very possibly could have been. Fragmentation is the safest guess, particularly in light of other evidence.

The asteroids were vaporized. It takes x amount of energy to vaporize an asteroid. The asteroids are vaporized so fast that thermal conduction alone can't account for it. Therefore the expanding rock of the impact point blowing through the rest of the asteroid transfers enough energy to vaporize it through stress heating.

Thanks for the link, it demonstrates you lied about what a BDZ is.

I didn't lie, in order to do as it says you need to slag the surface of the planet. That requires more than enough energy to end all life.

"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."

See the bolded. Mining is an industry, mines on Earth today are several km deep. Fish and water are a natural resoource, to destroy them you must vaporize all of the surface water. Cities in SW are often kilometers tall metal constructs that would require far more energy to destroy than the rock they're standing on.

Destroy microbes my ass.

It's what happens when you expend that much energy on a planet.

And by the way, unless you know the mass of a Star Destroyer, and you don't seeing as how it composed mostly of imaginary materials, you don't know the force needed to move it.

We have the engine power based off of the glow of the engine bells and their acceleration. You can figure out the mass from that.

Or would have been too bad for me if they were.

http://mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/avengeresb1b0oc.gif
Yep, still to bad for you.

What part of other side of the planet is confusing you?

That picture is from near when that remark is made, it is what the officer is talking about. That is not 30% of the crust destroyed, it's some weird ass clouds.

As far as you know. Dialogue says otherwise.

And dialogue in this case is wrong.

I couldn't agree more. They did more to sink warsie wank fests than a thousand logical arguments ever could.

Too bad that all of those numbers were derived from the movie visuals then eh?

Whatever you say chuckles. I could point out it is more than vs. debates, I could point out you can't post on SD.net without looking like something of an idiot, I could point out that when you have brain damaged simians running around with a free license to edit posts it doesn't get much dumber. But I won't point out these things because as has been demonstrated, logic is wasted on you.

SD.net tends to have that effect on people who prefer style over substance and can't debate in a rational manner.

See? I can degenerate to random insults too. Now, if you don't mind I would prefer some civility be kept here. I will refrain from taking shots at you so long as you grant me the same courtesy.

Civility is all well and good, but I call em like I see em.

Hey, sorry I'm not enough of a junkie to memorize every line from every episode.

There are sites that do that. I don't watch them all, I just reference the people who do.

Could photon torpedoes tear through IDS shields?

Nope

Who knows.

Anyone who watches them comparitavly.

However they are not nearly as weak as, "1000 to take out an asteroid" as you had claimed.

In the episode "Pegasus", the Enterprise had to unload its entire payload to take out one asteroid.

What would the point be of even carrying them, to send people out in space burials as in the Star Trek movies?

Perhaps ST universe shields and ship construction aren't that strong.

I find it funny you can't acknowledge the rest of my post, just because I mentioned I referenced a book.

I find it funny you can't read the statements Paramount themselves have made regarding canon, even if it keeps getting restated throughout this thread.

I guess kiddies really don't read anymore.

I'm not a kiddie. And I'm not the one completly missing the whole "books don't count" point.

In the episode "Pegasus", the Enterprise had to unload its entire payload to take out one asteroid.



In the episode, "Pegasus" we're talking about an asteroid that was large enough to engulf an entire starship. One of these new federation cloaked vessels , with a technology that allowed it to go through matter, was lodged in it, and they had to rescue it. They were able to maneuver the whole ship through an opening in the side. I'm sure if an IDS was in a similar situation, it would need to use a similar compliment of it's weapons. But I don't claim to be an expert on the entire SW world as you.

And as for the book, all it even is is a summary of the goddamn episodes. I mean, did you even read my first post? I can't know them all by heart!

The range of the photon torpedoes was set in the episode where the enterprise was testing it's new weapons systems, and a torpedo missed. Worf stated that the torpedo could be 3 and a half million kilometers away. I could look it up in the book, but I don't want to break this wonderful "canon" you hold so dear.

I will state this for the last time, the star trek encyclopedia is only a collection of information from the show and movies. Obviously the technical manual from 20 years ago that stated the enterprise had jacuzis in the junior officers quarters is out, because it was never established. THAT'S what I think paramount was trying to say.

Now really, I just wanted to add a bit of ST information without a bunch of BS, but whatever.

My mistake. So we have one shot that didn't display nuclear level yields, but several more that do. Quit trying to use single low events to set upper limits for SW firepower.
First, it is the whole battle, not one instance. The logic follows that if in a situation, the clear and logical thing to do is use X, they do not use X, therefore they do not have X in this situation. There is no reason to believe either side would deliberately under arm and under armor their vessels for this battle, therefore it is far safer to assume they are not capable of that level of firepower. No matter how much secondary canon claims they have nuclear yields, if the movies show otherwise, and in large part they have with one exception noted earlier, they do not have nuclear yields.


Because a smaller vessel was better suited to the role of abducting Palpatine and escaping unnoticed. Normally General Grievous uses a Geonosian Dreadnaught for his flag ship, but such a large and powerful ship would just asct as a magnet for the Republic's firepower.
But as covered, the Republic was unwilling to destroy the ship and their firepower can't do serious damage to them anyway. Remember the pretty much invincible droid battleship argument?


http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/avengeresb2b3ri.gif
You were saying? Glowing debris is not evidence of vaporization, the fact it is clustered at all tends towards fragmentation rather than vaporization. Considering the exact same effects were achieved when the bolt passed trough an asteroid without exploding and the asteroid collison sequence earlier in the movie was producing far more pronounced fireballs, which produced a micro-asteroid swarm that was passed through moments later, all evidence points to kinetic fragmentation rather than vaporization, as does the glowing debris seen being scattered after the turbolaser bolt you showed me. Further, the fact they mostly glow red and not white before disapearing entirely also indicates they are not being vapoirzed.

My anaylisis is that that scene shows the asteroid being blown apart, edges of some of the rock glow because of this but quickly cool back bellow visible light radiation. The pieces can't be seen because they are too small and against a black backdrop of space they would be hard to see anyway.


So the seismic charges are impossible in real life, well so are phasers, hyperdrive and subspace communications. But that doesn't stop us from analysing what we see on screen, SOD remember? Of course. But as with all of those there is a porperty of them beyond simple direct energy application when applyind SOD, yes? Hyperspace is not creating enoug henergy to push it fasther than light, it is a dimensional doorway as I recall. Phasers are not DET weapons, they have that funky NDF effect going on. Subspace communication too relies on subspace. My point was is that there appears to be more to the Seismic charge than meets the eye.


Seismic charges are likely a ground attack weapon( they would be devastating in that role) Jango was using them in a pinch around Geonosis. They happened to really fuck up large asteroids.
Sounds like a plausible theory to me. Still they contain some property that is out of the ordinary.


It's a spaceport docking bay in which starships reqularily take off and land in. Tell me, would you make the space shuttle launch pad out of compressed sand or would you use something with more heat resistance? Concrete is a good substitute for whatever the SW galaxy uses. And you couldn't cause concrete to glow red and explode with anything short of a grenade now adays.
Why would they need the resistance of a modern spaceport though when the ships leaving and entering use things like repulsorlifts to get them off the ground. People can stand right next to ships taking off in SW, why then would they need expensive construction materials for buildings? My guess would be they took the abundant and cheap sand they had, compressed it into construction material, and built the port out of it.


I suggest you watch ANH. Luke shoots the Death Star surface and big clouds of vapor rush up to envelop his X-Wing.
Just did. The sparks in question were fairly minor, not to mention that it wasn't until multiple hits in multiple locations that the last one threw up enough to engulf his fighter. The fact it wasn't consistantly throwing up that much debris is indicative of hitting something somewwhat volatile.


http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/avengeresb2b3ri.gif

Nope, still being vaporized.
Nope. The fact most of it never glows anything other than red kinda rules that one out.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/Wapoe/Image10.jpg
Vaped.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/Wapoe/Image13.jpg
Vaped.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v685/Wapoe/Image14.jpg
And vaped again.
Funny how we clearly see large bits of debris coming out of one of the explosions in even the little bit you showed. Doesn't look very "vaped" to me.


Again, we have one instance of low TL firepower. Compared to the other instances of higher TL firepower this must be rationalized. Such as I have done by saying that that one gun was low powered, while perhaps all of the others were fine. Which is reasonable given the IH was suffering from battle damage. First of all, equally damning is the fact this low powered gun actually punched through the hull of the ship it was shooting at. While you claim it as an isolated incident, the whole battle was low yield and there is little in later installments, or earlier for that matter, that backs up these high yield claims. When taken to task on the low yields displayed in ROTJ, warsies routinely fell back on "well, they weren't using heavy turbolasers". We never see the kinds of yields described in lesser canon in the movies when they had every reason to. My belief is because Lucas never intended his universe to be throwing around blasts at the level warsies like to pretend and os they never would have made it in the movie.


According the novelization Boba knew how to fly the Slave 1. Jango has been teaching him his trade since he was young, it's not a stretch to assume that Boba knew how to operate the guns. And you seem to forget that had they been at full power he would have killed his father, himself and destroyed the Slave 1 alogn with Kenobi. Erm... you did read my post yes?

We could rehash the battle between Slave 1 and Obi-Wan Kenobi on the landing platform where the warsie position a kid is trained well enough to turn down weapons to avoid vaping his father wasn't smart enough to turn them back up once his daddie was out of the way.

I quite addressed that point.


Also since we never see the platform damaged, and that the AOTC:ITW says that the platforms are shielded it would make sense that the shields took most of the blast leaving only a part of it visible. What does shielded mean in the context it is used? In a sense, the space shuttle is shielded too. Designed to withstand fairly large amounts of heat is a must for a platform like that and shileded could simply refer to material designed to keep heat from damaging what lies beneath it, as is the case with the space shuttle.

I disagree.
You are welcome to.


The "handfull of much higher end firepower" are actually very common. It's the seemingly low yields in the Battle of Coruscant that are anomalous.
And Endor. Those two compose roughly 90% of all capital ship combat.


There's the proton torpedoes in ANH which shook the horribly massive Death Star. And yes the explosion doesn't look that big but the OT:ICS describes them as "focused nuclear explosives" so we wouldn't see that much of an explosion as most of it was directed away from us.
Nuclear explosives eh? Care to tell me just how much nuclear material one can cram into a weapon that small? That does more to damage your case than help it.

And there's still the vaporized asteroid scenes.
Fragmented.

No one expected the Seperatists to be stupid enough to actually attack Coruscant. But either way it shows that the short ranges were anomalous not the norm. Stupid enough? Hell, they could have won the war in a walk if they had attacked Coruscant directly. Most of the Jedi, dead, most of the leaders dead, etc. The moral blow alone would have been crippling.


A few tens of km then. Yet that still represents greater range than Star Trek where ships don't engage each other till they are at <10km range. Frequently not, at the same time though there are examples of Star Trek engaging at millions of kilometers as I recall. I believe the episode in question was the one with the rogue Nebula class ship. Forget the name thoguh The Wounded rings a bell.


It supports the vaporization of asteroids, BDZ operations, and their engine power. The first didn't happen, the second is severely overhyped, and the third is not quantifiable.


"The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag
-Imperial Sourcebook, p.61" An expression at best. Plus, if games count I have a butterfly of death to introduce from Galaxies.


These colossal, wedge-shaped behemoths, bristling with turboweapons and carrying entire TIE squadrons within them, each possess more firepower than the entire planetary forces of most worlds, and can reduce a planet surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours.
-Star Wars Technical Journal, vol.2, p.17 Smoking debris, not molten slag, and in a matter of hours plural. Interesting.


... to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform "mop-up" operations and a through search of Dankayo's now evenly-cratered surface.
-Scavenger Hunt, p.3 Cool, topsoil damage and atmosphere removal. What happened to crust damage?


As instructed, I have remained behind until the last of our transports departed safely into hyperspace. Imperial Star Destroyers have so thoroughly blasted Dankayo that I fear for my safety, even in this deep-planet survival shelter.
-Scavenger Hunt, p.20 How deep can one get if the crust were destroyed as has been claimed? You don't get much lower.

"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-A World to Conquor, Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p.256
Caught that one. Perhaps the most direct depiction of a BDZ and it doesn't cover half the stuff you claim it did.

It can destroy a worlds atmosphere, recuce a planet to molten slag, and in Hand of Thrawn duology it is mentioned that the planet Caamas was so badly damage after it was BDZed that it would be easier to terraform a new planet than it would be to restore Caamas. Destroy atmosphere, check. The E-D was capable of doing the same. The only source for reducing a planet to slag, molten or any other kind is a bloody RPG which is probably the lowest source on the canon ladder. The fact that higher sources put it at a more moderat figure, that is reducing it to smoking debris, to quote the second source, indicates the damage you were claiming doesn't happen.


Not for the Empire no.
Yet none of the BDZ sources you gave even hint at planet sterilization.


The fastest it could move the energy is at c. SW ships are so massive that even that is not fast enough to prevent localized damage to the armor.
And the fastest energy could enter is c meaning that the energy would be dispersed away as fast as it entered and thus the whole ship would heat up uniformly from the weapons.


The asteroids were vaporized. It takes x amount of energy to vaporize an asteroid. The asteroids are vaporized so fast that thermal conduction alone can't account for it. Therefore the expanding rock of the impact point blowing through the rest of the asteroid transfers enough energy to vaporize it through stress heating. I do not believe they were vaporized not when the asteroid collision scene produced much brighter explosions and showed quite clearly they were in little pieces by having the MF run into said pieces.


I didn't lie, in order to do as it says you need to slag the surface of the planet. That requires more than enough energy to end all life.
There is no source that says reducing th esurface to slag.


See the bolded. Mining is an industry, mines on Earth today are several km deep. Fish and water are a natural resoource, to destroy them you must vaporize all of the surface water. Cities in SW are often kilometers tall metal constructs that would require far more energy to destroy than the rock they're standing on. When you are dealing with that kind of high technology, water and fishing are not really resources. Reducing the city to smoking debris, as stated in the technical book, would not require all that much energy. Mines may run deep but it doesn't take alot to colapse them. Taken to the literal extend a BDZ would have to destroy the world at the subatomic level to destroy "all resources" as after all, the entire planet is composed of electrons, neutron, and protons which can be made into a wide variety of things by advanced technology. The more moderate interpretation is the more reasonable one.

It's what happens when you expend that much energy on a planet.
If only their were evidence they did expend that much energy on a planet...


We have the engine power based off of the glow of the engine bells and their acceleration. You can figure out the mass from that. Or you could, if the glow could be easily discerned. Seeing as how a brighter center would obscure any cooler periphary, simply assuming the whole thing is uniform overestimates the actual energy levels.



http://mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/wmd/avengeresb1b0oc.gif
Yep, still to bad for you. Nope, just a rock being blown apart.


That picture is from near when that remark is made, it is what the officer is talking about. That is not 30% of the crust destroyed, it's some weird ass clouds.
Erm... What's under the clouds and how do you know that is his only information source?


And dialogue in this case is wrong.
Only if you assume that you are seeing the entire planet there when we clearly aren't.


Too bad that all of those numbers were derived from the movie visuals then eh? Through numbers pulled squarely from the ass and plugged into forumlae that are inappropriate. You should see Wong try and justify the asteroid collision with the con tower of a star destroyer as a multi-gigaton event. It's hilarious.


SD.net tends to have that effect on people who prefer style over substance and can't debate in a rational manner.
SD.net tends to be full of half baked trolls who are waiting on their parents to refil their Ridalin and are passing the time by flinging poo and touching themselves to ICS. Monkey cage at the Zoo is quite an apt analogy. And yes, it does have that effect on people who prefer style over substance and can't debate in a rational manner, so long as they agree they become honored members of the community who are utterly impervious to logic. SD.net is one the greatest factories of the Stone Deaf and Ferrous Cranus type flamewarriors on the known internet.


Civility is all well and good, but I call em like I see em.
As you wish.

There is the fact that during any particular episode, the power of the weapons and shields were... whatever the writer damn well decided they would be...

'Okay so this episode I'm going to destroy an asteroid'
'Sure, we'll think of some way to do it... uhh... increase the yield of the torpedoes fifteen-fold okay?'

Geez... I kinda can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. :D

You can't analyze what you see in either series using our world's physics; it's just not going to work, period. These massive explosions in space, and blasts of energy, are dreamed-up computer effects, or scratches on film and special-effects pyrotechnics. I mean, come on... a real-life event similar in scale to the Death Star explosion, for example, would look nothing like it did in the movie. You can't determine the mass of a Star Destroyer by analyzing the spectra of their engine glows. This stuff is all arbitrary. :)

Geez... I kinda can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. :D

You can't analyze what you see in either series using our world's physics; it's just not going to work, period. These massive explosions in space, and blasts of energy, are dreamed-up computer effects, or scratches on film and special-effects pyrotechnics. I mean, come on... a real-life event similar in scale to the Death Star explosion, for example, would look nothing like it did in the movie. You can't determine the mass of a Star Destroyer by analyzing the spectra of their engine glows. This stuff is all arbitrary. :)
I agree :D

I agree :D

Seconded

Geez... I kinda can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. :D

You can't analyze what you see in either series using our world's physics; it's just not going to work, period. These massive explosions in space, and blasts of energy, are dreamed-up computer effects, or scratches on film and special-effects pyrotechnics. I mean, come on... a real-life event similar in scale to the Death Star explosion, for example, would look nothing like it did in the movie. You can't determine the mass of a Star Destroyer by analyzing the spectra of their engine glows. This stuff is all arbitrary. :)
But it still makes fun reading.

Lafier']But it still makes fun reading.
Well, true, I can't argue with that. :headbang: :D

First, it is the whole battle, not one instance. The logic follows that if in a situation, the clear and logical thing to do is use X, they do not use X, therefore they do not have X in this situation. There is no reason to believe either side would deliberately under arm and under armor their vessels for this battle, therefore it is far safer to assume they are not capable of that level of firepower. No matter how much secondary canon claims they have nuclear yields, if the movies show otherwise, and in large part they have with one exception noted earlier, they do not have nuclear yields.

But we clearly see nuclear level events from patrol ships and ISDs. It's absurd to think that capital ships have less firepower than a patrol ship.

But as covered, the Republic was unwilling to destroy the ship and their firepower can't do serious damage to them anyway. Remember the pretty much invincible droid battleship argument?

Glowing debris is not evidence of vaporization, the fact it is clustered at all tends towards fragmentation rather than vaporization.

Watch the .gif more closely. The TL bolt strikes the asteroid, it glows white hot for a frame, then quickly expands and dissipates all in under half a second, assuming 24fps. This is consistent with it being vapourized, as if it were it would have a vastly increased surface area and would radiate away heat far more quickly. Please also find the fragments you claim are there.

Considering the exact same effects were achieved when the bolt passed trough an asteroid without exploding

Then that bolt had more than enough energy to vapourize that asteroid so it continued on its way.

and the asteroid collison sequence earlier in the movie was producing far more pronounced fireballs, which produced a micro-asteroid swarm that was passed through moments later,

The asteroids involved in that scene were much larger and produced detectable fragments unlike the TL hit ones. And non-SoD that just goes to show us that ILM adds fragments when it means to fragment an asteroid.

Again, please highlight the fragments in the ESB asteroid vapoirization scenes.

all evidence points to kinetic fragmentation rather than vaporization, as does the glowing debris seen being scattered after the turbolaser bolt you showed me. Further, the fact they mostly glow red and not white before disapearing entirely also indicates they are not being vapoirzed.

If they were fragmented where are the fragments? And they did glow white before quickly cooling.

My anaylisis is that that scene shows the asteroid being blown apart, edges of some of the rock glow because of this but quickly cool back bellow visible light radiation. The pieces can't be seen because they are too small and against a black backdrop of space they would be hard to see anyway.

We saw fragments of asteroids earlier. Where are the fragments?

Of course. But as with all of those there is a porperty of them beyond simple direct energy application when applyind SOD, yes? Hyperspace is not creating enoug henergy to push it fasther than light, it is a dimensional doorway as I recall. Phasers are not DET weapons, they have that funky NDF effect going on. Subspace communication too relies on subspace. My point was is that there appears to be more to the Seismic charge than meets the eye.

Yes, but that doesn't stop us from analysing it.

Sounds like a plausible theory to me. Still they contain some property that is out of the ordinary.

As do most things in this discussion. But that doesn't stop us from analysing it.

Why would they need the resistance of a modern spaceport though when the ships leaving and entering use things like repulsorlifts to get them off the ground. People can stand right next to ships taking off in SW, why then would they need expensive construction materials for buildings? My guess would be they took the abundant and cheap sand they had, compressed it into construction material, and built the port out of it.

Because while they use repulsors to lift against gravity they use their main drives for forward thrust.

Just did. The sparks in question were fairly minor, not to mention that it wasn't until multiple hits in multiple locations that the last one threw up enough to engulf his fighter. The fact it wasn't consistantly throwing up that much debris is indicative of hitting something somewwhat volatile.

Possible. But the fact that the X-Wing was vaping any of the armor is impressive by itself.

Nope. The fact most of it never glows anything other than red kinda rules that one out.

http://h4h.com/louis/iddiot.jpg

Please highlight the fragments.

Funny how we clearly see large bits of debris coming out of one of the explosions in even the little bit you showed. Doesn't look very "vaped" to me.

There are some hot, likely molten, fragments. But most of the asteroid is now an incandescent fireball. That means it was vapourized.

First of all, equally damning is the fact this low powered gun actually punched through the hull of the ship it was shooting at. While you claim it as an isolated incident, the whole battle was low yield and there is little in later installments, or earlier for that matter, that backs up these high yield claims. When taken to task on the low yields displayed in ROTJ, warsies routinely fell back on "well, they weren't using heavy turbolasers". We never see the kinds of yields described in lesser canon in the movies when they had every reason to. My belief is because Lucas never intended his universe to be throwing around blasts at the level warsies like to pretend and os they never would have made it in the movie.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Firepower.jpg

There's the DS2 annhilating a km long ship with one blast.

Here's a an ISD being destroyed by 2 Rebel HTL bolts.
http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/ISDHTL.mov


And the Death Star has displayed planet destroying firepower. The ROTS battle is not in any way an upper limit.


Erm... you did read my post yes?

Yes, though I probably mis-understood it.

We could rehash the battle between Slave 1 and Obi-Wan Kenobi on the landing platform where the warsie position a kid is trained well enough to turn down weapons to avoid vaping his father wasn't smart enough to turn them back up once his daddie was out of the way.

I quite addressed that point.

This page (http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/obijango/obiwanvsjango.html) adresses this point far better than I can.

What does shielded mean in the context it is used? In a sense, the space shuttle is shielded too. Designed to withstand fairly large amounts of heat is a must for a platform like that and shileded could simply refer to material designed to keep heat from damaging what lies beneath it, as is the case with the space shuttle.

Shielded, as in with SW energy shields to protect them against lightning strikes. This is supported that the platform never even gets a scorch mark on it from the fight.


And Endor. Those two compose roughly 90% of all capital ship combat.

There are much larger yield weapons at Endor.

Nuclear explosives eh? Care to tell me just how much nuclear material one can cram into a weapon that small? That does more to damage your case than help it.

They are also described as "proton scattering warheads". Since scattering protons would be a nuclear event they are nuclear weapons, just not fission or fusion ones. They still have nuclear scale firepower however.

Fragmented.

http://h4h.com/louis/iddiot.jpg
Where are the fragments?


Stupid enough? Hell, they could have won the war in a walk if they had attacked Coruscant directly. Most of the Jedi, dead, most of the leaders dead, etc. The moral blow alone would have been crippling.

Coruscant is the most heavilu defended planet in the Republic. The CIS attacking was seen as a sign of desperation.

Frequently not, at the same time though there are examples of Star Trek engaging at millions of kilometers as I recall. I believe the episode in question was the one with the rogue Nebula class ship. Forget the name thoguh The Wounded rings a bell.

Yet 99.99% of combat takes place at less than 10km range in ST.

The first didn't happen,

http://h4h.com/louis/iddiot.jpg
Where are the fragments?

the second is severely overhyped

How would you destroy all natural resources without vapourizing all the water and melting the surface?

and the third is not quantifiable.

It's quantafiable from the engine glow.

An expression at best. Plus, if games count I have a butterfly of death to introduce from Galaxies.

Smoking debris, not molten slag, and in a matter of hours plural. Interesting.

Cool, topsoil damage and atmosphere removal. What happened to crust damage?

How deep can one get if the crust were destroyed as has been claimed? You don't get much lower.
Caught that one. Perhaps the most direct depiction of a BDZ and it doesn't cover half the stuff you claim it did.

How will you destroy all natural resources without vapourizing all the water and melting the surface?

Destroy atmosphere, check. The E-D was capable of doing the same. The only source for reducing a planet to slag, molten or any other kind is a bloody RPG which is probably the lowest source on the canon ladder. The fact that higher sources put it at a more moderat figure, that is reducing it to smoking debris, to quote the second source, indicates the damage you were claiming doesn't happen.

The most descripitve quote is the one by the Imperial officer. So how do you destroy all natural resources without vapourizing all the water and melting the surface?

Yet none of the BDZ sources you gave even hint at planet sterilization.

It's a side effect of destroying all the natural resources.

And the fastest energy could enter is c meaning that the energy would be dispersed away as fast as it entered and thus the whole ship would heat up uniformly from the weapons.

The beam travels at c but you can increase it's energy content and decrease it's length so that it delivers too much energy too fast to be spread out evenly.

I do not believe they were vaporized not when the asteroid collision scene produced much brighter explosions and showed quite clearly they were in little pieces by having the MF run into said pieces.

http://h4h.com/louis/iddiot.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/idiot2.jpg

Yeah, they're real simmilar :rolleyes:

When you are dealing with that kind of high technology, water and fishing are not really resources. Reducing the city to smoking debris, as stated in the technical book, would not require all that much energy. Mines may run deep but it doesn't take alot to colapse them. Taken to the literal extend a BDZ would have to destroy the world at the subatomic level to destroy "all resources" as after all, the entire planet is composed of electrons, neutron, and protons which can be made into a wide variety of things by advanced technology. The more moderate interpretation is the more reasonable one.

It would be far easier to get water and food from a planet than to make your own out of sub-atomic particles. That's why they're natural resources. A BDZ destroys all natural resources, which includes the water.


If only their were evidence they did expend that much energy on a planet...

They do because they destroy all natural resources. And your claim that sub-atomic particles are a natural resource is absurd.

Or you could, if the glow could be easily discerned. Seeing as how a brighter center would obscure any cooler periphary, simply assuming the whole thing is uniform overestimates the actual energy levels.

Not by enough to drop them to grenade level firepower you claim.


Nope, just a rock being blown apart.

Then where are the fragments?

Erm... What's under the clouds and how do you know that is his only information source?

If the fleet were doing enough damage to seriously harm the crust we would see molten red hot ejecta above the clouds.

Only if you assume that you are seeing the entire planet there when we clearly aren't.

Yet we don't see the kind of effects we would expect if the current bombardment was actually destroying a portion of the crust.

Through numbers pulled squarely from the ass and plugged into forumlae that are inappropriate. You should see Wong try and justify the asteroid collision with the con tower of a star destroyer as a multi-gigaton event. It's hilarious.

That ISD's shields were down so it could transmit the hologram with the Executor.

I voted for the ISD, but willing to concede ST phasers are more powerful than SW turbolasers. But, how many phaser banks can the Enterprise-E train on a target 3, 4 max?
The ISD has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons. Properly oriented, an ImpStar could hit the Enterprise with nearly 100 cannons. Then you have a squadron of bombers capable of firing another dozen torpedoes at once.
In a fight the Enterprise would be blasting with it's 1-4 phaser banks while being hit with wave after wave of turbolasers, ion blasts, and proton torpedoes.

I voted for the ISD, but willing to concede ST phasers are more powerful than SW turbolasers. But, how many phaser banks can the Enterprise-E train on a target 3, 4 max?
The ISD has 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons. Properly oriented, an ImpStar could hit the Enterprise with nearly 100 cannons. Then you have a squadron of bombers capable of firing another dozen torpedoes at once.
In a fight the Enterprise would be blasting with it's 1-4 phaser banks while being hit with wave after wave of turbolasers, ion blasts, and proton torpedoes.
It depends which way the Enterprise E is facing. If its bow is facing the ISD, it can only target 4 of the arrays, if it rolls onto its back, it ccan fire 6 at a time, and phasers can be countis fire, or rapid fire. Another thing is that they can fire from more than one point at once. http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltValley4.jpg

My Anubis Class Battlestar (NS FFT RP) eats them both for dinner...

http://thecomputerman.dyndns.biz/fleet/fleet/anubis.jpg

An Imperial Star Destroyer can train almost 90 percent of its guns on a target directly ahead, due to its triangular shape.

An Imperial Star Destroyer can train almost 90 percent of its guns on a target directly ahead, due to its triangular shape.
However, if facing its side and rotates on it's long axis, not only can it produce a continuous barrage of Turbolasers, Ion Cannons and Torpedoes, but it can constantly bring to the fore, fresh sheilds and gives the damage sheilds time to recharge.

The ST won't have that Opportunity due to the waves of fighters that will constantly harrash the ship. Something the ISD won't have (to their delight)

No one is better without a good captian.

Star destroyer if it can keep the enterprise to its flanks or front could out gun it.

But the Enterprise could out manuver the Star Destroyer and gun down the ships rear which has less guns that the front and flanks.

It all depends on if the captain and crew are more superior.

Which in that competition its another tie. Both are highly skilled and disiplined.

So its just a pointless battle. Besides why would a star destroyer from a long ways away be doing extragalactic travel?

However, if facing its side and rotates on it's long axis, not only can it produce a continuous barrage of Turbolasers, Ion Cannons and Torpedoes, but it can constantly bring to the fore, fresh sheilds and gives the damage sheilds time to recharge.

The ST won't have that Opportunity due to the waves of fighters that will constantly harrash the ship. Something the ISD won't have (to their delight)

exactly, if the Enterprise try to put more power into the shields facing the ISD, the fighters and bombers will tear them up with strafing runs.

exactly, if the Enterprise try to put more power into the shields facing the ISD, the fighters and bombers will tear them up with strafing runs.
Well then its all on how you define the competition betwixt the two ships. You haven't even taking into account maybe the other wants to capture the other instead of destroy.

Also it seems that you forget that the enterprise also has a shuttle bay and could possibly defend itself from fighters for a short time. But its all in how you define the problem.

No one is better without a good captian.

Star destroyer if it can keep the enterprise to its flanks or front could out gun it.

But the Enterprise could out manuver the Star Destroyer and gun down the ships rear which has less guns that the front and flanks.

It all depends on if the captain and crew are more superior.

Which in that competition its another tie. Both are highly skilled and disiplined.

So its just a pointless battle. Besides why would a star destroyer from a long ways away be doing extragalactic travel?
The ISD has a squadron of fighters that can help inhibit the SCS's maneuverability. the SCS has shuttles, but only what... 4 shuttles? verus 12 fighter/bombers?

and once the shields are down, then you have the ISD shuttles bringing over combat trained troops vs. the Fed's Security? and once the ISD ION Cannons shut down the SCS's electronics... no security fields to take out the troopers.

Well then its all on how you define the competition betwixt the two ships. You haven't even taking into account maybe the other wants to capture the other instead of destroy.

Also it seems that you forget that the enterprise also has a shuttle bay and could possibly defend itself from fighters for a short time. But its all in how you define the problem.
I believe the terms were 1 ISD vs 1 SCS ship. the ISD comes with fighters/bombers while the SCS comes with shuttles (some armed)

It doesn't matter who captains the SCS, it is simply outgunned by several orders of magnitude in firepower. The SCS could fire till it runs out of torpedoes and fuel and the ISD could shrug it all off.

All it takes is one good hit from a medium TL from the ISD and the SCS is finished.

Anybody have numbers for the acceleration rate of a SCS? T'would be interesting to know if it can keep up with or outrun the ISD. (If not, the SCS would be unable even to stay in areas of poor fire coverage, as the ISD could accelerate away, turn, and get several shots before reverse burning and doing it all over again.)

It doesn't matter who captains the SCS, it is simply outgunned by several orders of magnitude in firepower. The SCS could fire till it runs out of torpedoes and fuel and the ISD could shrug it all off.

All it takes is one good hit from a medium TL from the ISD and the SCS is finished.
Maybe in your opinion, you seem to forget that dialouge does count as cannon, according to paramount, and you seem to ignore anything that doesnt suit you.

Though the ISD still wins, simply because its better armed. And most ST ships are not really built for combat.

SW weapons are much more powerful, but not nearly on the scale you seem to think they are. Then again thats just opinion.

Which SCS are we talking about? THe UFP SCS? Will will get owned like a barge fighing a battleship.

Or the TE SCS? In which case the ISD will become a glowing debrie feild.

It doesn't matter who captains the SCS, it is simply outgunned by several orders of magnitude in firepower. The SCS could fire till it runs out of torpedoes and fuel and the ISD could shrug it all off.

All it takes is one good hit from a medium TL from the ISD and the SCS is finished.

I'm only going to say this once.

MIKE WONG IS A STUPID MORON WHO IGNORES CANON AND THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

Lets compare shall we?

ISD: Uses primitive fusion as primary power "an artificial sun" according to the B-level canon novelisation of ANH
SCS: Uses fusion as BACKUP, is mainly powered by matter/antimatter which produces several hundred times the output of the fusion generators.

ISD: Transfers power by wires which get damaged easily and are slow to repair (ANH)
SCS: Uses EPS taps that while prone to failure are easily routed around and can be replaced VERY easily.

ISD: Has human-controled targeting and (for the most part) is limited by the human eye and reflexes.
SCS: Computer controlled targeting limited only by maximum weapon range and sensor detection.

ISD: Needs huge-ass sensor globes
SCS: Has several sensor pallets that are REALLY hard targets to take out.

ISD: Can have the cockpit taken out from a single suicide fighter (It's on an SSD but I'm assuming that the ISD has the same issue)
SCS: cockpit survived ramming at high sub-light against a VERY large target (Nemisis)



Need I go on?

Maybe in your opinion, you seem to forget that dialouge does count as cannon, according to paramount, and you seem to ignore anything that doesnt suit you.

Wow, I disagreed that the bombardment shown in TDiC actually shows 30% of the crust destroyed. The best counter "You haven't seen the other side of the planet". We would still see things like molten ejecta is the bombardment we did see was capable of seriously damaging the crust.

SW weapons are much more powerful, but not nearly on the scale you seem to think they are. Then again thats just opinion.

Yes they are that much more powerful. You need to read the thread.

Which SCS are we talking about? THe UFP SCS? Will will get owned like a barge fighing a battleship.

Or the TE SCS? In which case the ISD will become a glowing debrie feild.

The only SCS we have reliable info on is the UFP one. If I recall correctly we've even seen a TE SCS in the canon.

Wow, I disagreed that the bombardment shown in TDiC actually shows 30% of the crust destroyed. The best counter "You haven't seen the other side of the planet". We would still see things like molten ejecta is the bombardment we did see was capable of seriously damaging the crust.



Yes they are that much more powerful. You need to read the thread.



The only SCS we have reliable info on is the UFP one. If I recall correctly we've even seen a TE SCS in the canon.
I know the TE SCS is non cannon, I told you that over MSN more than once.

We have never seen a TE SCS in cannon. The Only TE ship we've seen is the EVil Enterprise from TOS, and the the evil NX-01 from Enterpise.


I've read the entire thread, and all of SD.net ( which is all BS ) As far as I can tell Wong just needs his ritalin and a side of common sense. As far as I can tell, you've been brain washed like all those other trolls over there.

Are SW that much more powerful? No, ARE They more powerful?, of crouse they are.

You seem to claim " style of substance. " Are you referring to the actual shows or debate? Because as we all know ST has far more substance than SW ever will.

MIKE WONG IS A STUPID MORON WHO IGNORES CANON AND THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

Care to provide evidence of that?

Lets compare shall we?

I've been doing that for the entire thread. I suggest you read it.

ISD: Uses primitive fusion as primary power "an artificial sun" according to the B-level canon novelisation of ANH
SCS: Uses fusion as BACKUP, is mainly powered by matter/antimatter which produces several hundred times the output of the fusion generators.

Wrong, an ISD uses a hypermatter reactor which relies on direct matter-energy conversion of faster-than light hypermatter fuel. The "artificial sun" bit refers to its power output which is indeed comparable to a star.

Also there is no "B-level" canon, you meant C-level.

ISD: Transfers power by wires which get damaged easily and are slow to repair (ANH)
SCS: Uses EPS taps that while prone to failure are easily routed around and can be replaced VERY easily.

EPS conduits also have a nasty habit of exploding and killing crew members, unlike Imperial power grids.

And if you're reffering to the mess of wires in the MF you should know that it is a heavily modified jury-rigged system. An ISD would have many backups should a section get damaged.

ISD: Has human-controled targeting and (for the most part) is limited by the human eye and reflexes.
SCS: Computer controlled targeting limited only by maximum weapon range and sensor detection.

Having human gunners augmented with targeting computers, unless you seriously think they only put them on fighters, ensures that if the command link to the bridge is severed the gunners can still do their job. While if the command link is severed on a SCS the weapons no longer work.

ISD: Needs huge-ass sensor globes
SCS: Has several sensor pallets that are REALLY hard targets to take out.

The globes are shielded, and if anything the size of the globes indicates that they have very powerfull sensors.

ISD: Can have the cockpit taken out from a single suicide fighter (It's on an SSD but I'm assuming that the ISD has the same issue)
SCS: cockpit survived ramming at high sub-light against a VERY large target (Nemisis)

The A-Wing was travelling much faster than the Enterprise in Nemesis. You also seem to forget that the first half of the saucer section was destroyed first, therefore decreasing the amount of energy that actually reached the bridge. If you think a high velocity fighter wouldn't destroy the bridge of an SCS with its shields down you are on crack.


Need I go on?

No need to further embarass yourself.

I know the TE SCS is non cannon, I told you that over MSN more than once.

Then it's irrelevent to the current debate.


I've read the entire thread, and all of SD.net ( which is all BS ) As far as I can tell Wong just needs his ritalin and a side of common sense. As far as I can tell, you've been brain washed like all those other trolls over there.

No, unlike you I just know enough about science to actually understand their arguments.

Are SW that much more powerful? No, ARE They more powerful?, of crouse they are.

In ANH General Dodonna says the Death Star has more firepower than half of the Imperial Star Fleet. Let's say it's exactly half and there are 10 million capital ships. 1e38 Joules (Death Star firepower)/ 5 million = 2e31 Joules per ship. If we mean time average firepower that's 2e26 Watts of total firepower for your average Imperial ship.

No ST ship has ever displayed that kind of firepower. So yes SW ships are that much more powerful.

You seem to claim " style of substance. " Are you referring to the actual shows or debate? Because as we all know ST has far more substance than SW ever will.

The facts of the debate. ST ships look all shiny and fancy but they are pathetically weak compared to the grungy looking Imperial ships.

The A-Wing was travelling much faster than the Enterprise in Nemesis. You also seem to forget that the first half of the saucer section was destroyed first, therefore decreasing the amount of energy that actually reached the bridge. If you think a high velocity fighter wouldn't destroy the bridge of an SCS with its shields down you are on crack.


I'm probably going to regret posting this, but both ISD and SCS designs suffer from a single fundamental flaw.

Both their command centers vent to space after you blow up their viewscreen/window.

I mean honestly, in the day and age of sensor blankets, visual display panels and holographic projectors, why do you still need to put the bridge somewhere where a lucky shot can kill the entire command crew?

I'm probably going to regret posting this, but both ISD and SCS designs suffer from a single fundamental flaw.

Both their command centers vent to space after you blow up their viewscreen/window.

I mean honestly, in the day and age of sensor blankets, visual display panels and holographic projectors, why do you still need to put the bridge somewhere where a lucky shot can kill the entire command crew?

Because you can jam sensors but you can't jam the Mk.1 eyeball.

Star trek lacks scientific logic, while Star Wars has very possible technologies.

I'm probably going to regret posting this, but both ISD and SCS designs suffer from a single fundamental flaw.

Both their command centers vent to space after you blow up their viewscreen/window.

I mean honestly, in the day and age of sensor blankets, visual display panels and holographic projectors, why do you still need to put the bridge somewhere where a lucky shot can kill the entire command crew?

Both have a secondary bridge built deep within the ship. I don't know why the Feddie ships place their primary bridge on the top, since it relies on display panels anyway, but the ISD's bridge's placement is logical; the ability for a commander to survey the battlefield even in the face of systems failure of some sort is highly valuable in a warship. One might as well ask why modern warships have the bridge on top of the superstructure, rather than relying on video cameras and radar.


Star trek lacks scientific logic, while Star Wars has very possible technologies.

No, both are quite impossible. Unless you have discovered how to make a lightsaber, in which case you will publicise your findings immediately, or I will hunt you down, take the information, and you will learn a new definition of pain and suffering, as you are slowly digested over a thousand years!

Though I will grant you that Wars's use of its technology is somewhat more realistic than Trek's.

The A-Wing was travelling much faster than the Enterprise in Nemesis.
I don't know if we can assume that SW ships are faster in sublight than ST ships. Full impulse for the Federation is defined as 0.25c. Do we have any cannon indications on how fast SW ships can go?

And yes, SW ships are definately faster than ST ships with FTL drives.

I'm only going to say this once.

MIKE WONG IS A STUPID MORON WHO IGNORES CANON AND THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

Actually, he's a very intelligent man who is anal about canon and the laws of physics, and happens to enjoy flaming people to extra crispy when the opportunity presents itself.

Lets compare shall we?

ISD: Uses primitive fusion as primary power "an artificial sun" according to the B-level canon novelisation of ANH
SCS: Uses fusion as BACKUP, is mainly powered by matter/antimatter which produces several hundred times the output of the fusion generators.
FFFF. F'ing Form over Function Falacy. The amount of energy it is seen to demonstrate will always trump an assumption of ours as to how it gets that energy and what the limitations on that are. Whether it is produced by random scientific-sounding name "hypermatter fusion" or "matter/antimatter reaction", what goes boom is what you get.

ISD: Transfers power by wires which get damaged easily and are slow to repair (ANH)
SCS: Uses EPS taps that while prone to failure are easily routed around and can be replaced VERY easily.
Take wire. Find black, find red. Do not cross black and red while touching black or red. Do not make yourself into a part of a circuit. Standard-issue electrician's manual. Alternately, shut down the power to that section of the wire.

Next step. Get pointy object. Cut wire. Cut off plastic tubing around wire end.

Next step. grab replacement. Splice wires. Wrap with insulator. Put back behind access cover. Close access cover. Voila.

Rerouting: to rerout, walk to circuit box. Flip swich from "on" to "off". Find backup. Flip swich from "off" to "on". Voila.

Your next piece of stupidity?

ISD: Has human-controled targeting and (for the most part) is limited by the human eye and reflexes.
SCS: Computer controlled targeting limited only by maximum weapon range and sensor detection.
Which is why the Star Destroyer crews routinely miss ships the size of starfighters by mere meters. The Sovreign is many meters larger than a starfighter. Ergo, the Sovreign gets hit. A lot.

ISD: Needs huge-ass sensor globes
SCS: Has several sensor pallets that are REALLY hard targets to take out.
Other SW ships lack sensor globes. Thus, the sensor globes allow vulnerability to gain an advantage--greatly increased sensor power. Presumably there are secondary sensors located around the ship, since it can "see" targets below itself, and can act as a launch and recovery platform for ships that leave and enter from below.



ISD: Can have the cockpit taken out from a single suicide fighter (It's on an SSD but I'm assuming that the ISD has the same issue)
SCS: cockpit survived ramming at high sub-light against a VERY large target (Nemisis)
It's a bridge, genius boy.

Did the Scimitar hit the big window on top of the bridge? No, it hit the front of the saucer section. Ship hitting armored prow =/= ship hitting window.

Need I go on?
To prove your own stupidity? Nope, we have enough evidence to make a conclusion already.

FFFF. F'ing Form over Function Falacy. The amount of energy it is seen to demonstrate will always trump an assumption of ours as to how it gets that energy and what the limitations on that are. Whether it is produced by random scientific-sounding name "hypermatter fusion" or "matter/antimatter reaction", what goes boom is what you get.

I'll say it right now, I'm taking sides. But this one sentence just gets to me, and I must respond. (In question form, to check something before I go on. Just so I don't make an ass out of my self.)

You do know that antimatter/matter reactions are real science right? And actually are much more powerful than a fusion reaction?

(Nuclear reactions only let out around 1% of the energy in matter, while Antimatter/matter reactions unleash all 100% of it?)

(Side note: I get what you mean though. Something's power is only as powerful as they show it on the screen, right?)

I don't know if we can assume that SW ships are faster in sublight than ST ships. Full impulse for the Federation is defined as 0.25c. Do we have any cannon indications on how fast SW ships can go?

And yes, SW ships are definately faster than ST ships with FTL drives.

Full impulse for Trek being .25c was thought up by a fool who had less knowledge of the laws of physics than Aristotel. We need to compare rates of acceleration, not speed.

As to acceleration,
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Propulsion/Propulsion1.html
and
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Propulsion/Propulsion2.html
lay things out pretty nicely.

Trek high-end accelerative capability appears 1/2 to 1/10 that of Wars, with Wars flagships at the 1/2 end, and fighters on the 1/10 end.

Trek appears well and thoroughly screwed in this aspect aswell.

I'll say it right now, I'm taking sides. But this one sentence just gets to me, and I must respond. (In question form, to check something before I go on. Just so I don't make an ass out of my self.)

You do know that antimatter/matter reactions are real science right? And actually are much more powerful than a fusion reaction?

(Nuclear reactions only let out around 1% of the energy in matter, while Antimatter/matter reactions unleash all 100% of it?)

(Side note: I get what you mean though. Something's power is only as powerful as they show it on the screen, right?)
if books are cannon... then Ion cannons disrupt electrical circuity. so with a barrage of TL and PT, both ships sheilds go down... now the SCS still fires its Phasers and PT's, while the ISD switches to ION Cannons, which take out the electrical system of the SCS...
Gravity control - disabled
Secondary Systems - disabled
computer control - disabled
Weapon systems - disabled
Propulson - disabled
Communications - disabled
Tacticals - disabled
Engine room - disabled... errr with the magnetic controls gone, the matter/antimatter mix in an uncontrolled cascade... resulting in a warp core breach... and they can't eject the core... BOOM!

Granted the ISD may not fare better, but they would still be alive.

Both have a secondary bridge built deep within the ship. I don't know why the Feddie ships place their primary bridge on the top, since it relies on display panels anyway, but the ISD's bridge's placement is logical; the ability for a commander to survey the battlefield even in the face of systems failure of some sort is highly valuable in a warship. One might as well ask why modern warships have the bridge on top of the superstructure, rather than relying on video cameras and radar.

Considering the distances usually involved in space, not to mention the problems related to tracking things with the mark I eyeball when you really don't have a point of reference for distance, one might think the vulnerabilities outweigh the benefits.

Although for the secondary bridge, does that mean there's a secondary command crew?

You do know that antimatter/matter reactions are real science right?
Assuming the ability to manufacture, contain, and efficiently react matter and antimatter, yes. They generate about 30MT of energy per kilogram antimatter reacted with a kilogram matter, if I'm not mistaken. (Also assuming the existense of antimatter in large quantities). It's sort of like saying lasers are real science to demonstrate that the lasguns in "Dune" are more realistic than the phasers in Star Trek.

And actually are much more powerful than a fusion reaction?
Short answer: yes

Long answer: Depends on the fusion reactor, what is being fused, whether it's even nuclear fusion or something else entirely that is also named fusion, or whether it's not even any kind of fusion and the Wars universe calls it fusion the same way they call their weapons lasers (when they don't fire beams of light, but bolts of something else) or cannons (when they most certainly don't fire small metal projectiles).

(Nuclear reactions only let out around 1% of the energy in matter, while Antimatter/matter reactions unleash all 100% of it?)
See above.


(Side note: I get what you mean though. Something's power is only as powerful as they show it on the screen, right?)
Or in a book or comic, but yeah. We take the highest capability we see, and set that as a tentative upper limit, then call everything below that the result of power levels. The exception is when a source that is higher canon than the source used to make the tentative upper limit clearly disagrees with it and cannot be justified with power levels. (For instance, a direct statement by the ICS compared to a description in a comic.)

I'm only going to say this once.

MIKE WONG IS A STUPID MORON WHO IGNORES CANON AND THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

Blatantly false. Mike Wong pays plenty of attention to the laws of physics.

ISD: Uses primitive fusion as primary power "an artificial sun" according to the B-level canon novelisation of ANH

ISD: Uses an undefined form of fusion (elaborated upon as Hypermatter annihilation in the ICS.)

Executor Star Destroyer: Produces more energy in one second of operation than is produced in an entire star's lifespan. (See ESB or ROTJ novelization. My memory of where exactly it appeared is fuzzy, although I'm pretty sure it took place in one of the G-level novels.)

SCS: Uses fusion as BACKUP, is mainly powered by matter/antimatter which produces several hundred times the output of the fusion generators.

Style over Substance fallacy.

ISD: Transfers power by wires which get damaged easily and are slow to repair (ANH)

ISD: Uses wires that are signifigantly less hazardous than EPS conduits. Or are you forgetting the exploding console syndrome?

SCS: Uses EPS taps that while prone to failure are easily routed around and can be replaced VERY easily.

SCS: Uses EPS taps that have a nasty tendency to explode, killing their users...

Yeah, I'll stick with my primitive wires thank you.

ISD: Has human-controled targeting and (for the most part) is limited by the human eye and reflexes.

ISD: Has targeting computers that are augmented by human gunners, and operates in a warfare environment that has ECM that can jam 'everything but your eyes' according to the ANH novelization.

SCS: Computer controlled targeting limited only by maximum weapon range and sensor detection.

SCS: Oddly never seems to fire at ranges greater than a couple kilometers...

ISD: Needs huge-ass sensor globes

ISD: Is designed as a warship, with sciency sensors being a secondary priority to weapons.
SCS: Has several sensor pallets that are REALLY hard targets to take out.

SCS: Is designed as a science ship first and a warship second.

ISD: Can have the cockpit taken out from a single suicide fighter (It's on an SSD but I'm assuming that the ISD has the same issue)

ISD: Has a bridge that can be taken down by a single fighter, when its shields are down and in the rare case that point defenses and tie fighters can't take it down.

SCS: cockpit survived ramming at high sub-light against a VERY large target (Nemisis)

Blantant lie.

SCS: Bridge lost intregrity when ramming the Scimitar at extremely low speeds, likely less than sixty meters per second based on scaling done on SD.net, spacebattles.com, amongst other newsgroups. Besides, anyone with half a brain should be able to realize that the Soverign wasn't going at high sublight (I'm assuming c-fractional) speeds in that scene. If it were, we would have seen a blur and then it would have been gone.

Need I go on?

No. You need to rethink your rabid trekkie delusions. I mean, come on here, the Federation has been spacefaring for a mere four hundred years (or less.) The ISD on the other hand is a product of a galactic civilization more than twenty thousand years old. It's like sticking a highly militarized five billion+ space nation against a five million man pacifist modern nation.

Hell, just looking at their FTL capabilities would tell you that ISDs are superior, since it should take more energy to cross a galaxy in hours instead of seventy years.

Ah... I just noticed, contrary to what I typed above, I meant to say that I wasn't taking sides... Right, sorry about that.

At CW: ( I agree with just about everything he says expect for one thing )

Quote:
ISD: Transfers power by wires which get damaged easily and are slow to repair (ANH)


ISD: Uses wires that are signifigantly less hazardous than EPS conduits. Or are you forgetting the exploding console syndrome?
/qoute

In case you didnt notice, the consoles only explode when the sheilds are down, or very very low. And even when they do, they still work.

And for the nemisis ramming, Indeed the Enterprise was not going very fast. And the impact only went up to the 1st phaser array, so it was no where near the bridge. And I'm also thinking that even though the scimitar was a big bad machine, it had shitty parts put into it, and thats why the Enterprise E could ram into it and break the armour.

THink about it, it was built by a bunch of renegade reman and some bald guy, they probably didnt have the best parts at there disposal.

Try this site

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html


And for Wars having more possible tech? ( at whoever said it ) Neither of them do.

The next time I can go stun my crazy neighbor with my Phaser and then go trim my hedges with my light saber, and then go enjoy some holodeck porno program. You let me know, kuz I dont see any of that laying around here.

In case you didnt notice, the consoles only explode when the sheilds are down, or very very low. And even when they do, they still work.

Thats really not much better. Think about it, why should a blast at the engines cause an explosion on the bridge? Thats some pretty bad engineering. Ya, great, the steering panel still works. Too bad the helmsman just got cooked.

On an ISD, we've never seen an attack on one part of a ship directly cause an explosion on another.

And I'm also thinking that even though the scimitar was a big bad machine, it had shitty parts put into it,

And yet, they were still able to bring one of the major empires in the ST universe to its knees and bitch slap the "flag" ship of the Federation.

and thats why the Enterprise E could ram into it and break the armour.

Uh, the Enterprise didn't exactly escaped unscathed. Besides, the Super Duper Evil Bad Mojo Array was still functional.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

That would be the guy who thinks the AT-ST is a tank. He's been refuted many times.

Thats really not much better. Think about it, why should a blast at the engines cause an explosion on the bridge? Thats some pretty bad engineering. Ya, great, the steering panel still works. Too bad the helmsman just got cooked.

On an ISD, we've never seen an attack on one part of a ship directly cause an explosion on another.



And yet, they were still able to bring one of the major empires in the ST universe to its knees and bitch slap the "flag" ship of the Federation.



Uh, the Enterprise didn't exactly escaped unscathed. Besides, the Super Duper Evil Bad Mojo Array was still functional.



That would be the guy who thinks the AT-ST is a tank. He's been refuted many times.

Thats not really evidance of crappy engineering. And I dont think anyone has actually died from it, just been injured. If you remeber generations, the red shirt gets thrown across the room by the engineering console. But when they destory the BOP, he's standing in that small crowd behind data.

The " Flag " ship of the federation is a small crusier compared to the scimitar.
What I'm trying to get at is that it was possibly built out of lower quality parts than the enterprise was.

Lets think about this for a second.

Enterprise E: 16 Phaser Banks, 5-6 Torpedo tubes and that werid turret thing ( though We've seen them come out of seemly random places, so its hard to tell. )
Scimitar: 52 Disroupter banks and 28 torpedo Bays. And a super duper whooper gun thingy that kills all living life on planets. ( also known as a plot device )

And I know the Enterprise got owned as well.

ANd as for STvsSW.net

Look! http://www.stardestroyer.net/toc.html

Thats the crazy guy who thinks ISDs have multi teraton weapons, ( even though we've never actually seen anything in SW short of the death star display that kind of firepower )

He's been refuted many times, and so has his shitty little website.

(note i didnt bother reading all 7million posts before this so ignore if its already mentioned)

but the enteprise is far far more manouverable than a star destroyer and its ability to target any section it wants gives it a huge advantage compared to the 'fill the sky' with laser tactics of SD's, lol i dont see a tractor beam working on it either, enterpise would zip about doding all the SD could throw with glee while zapping both shield generators then every laser platform juzt to leave it helpless, and then just for a laugh since its shields/armour are ridiculously good it could just drive straight through the bridge of the poor thing.
This aside theres also the ingenuity and resoursfullness that the crew has at its command, geordie can fix almost damage simply by redirecting the thingymagig through the flux capicitor or whatever, SD's to my understanding arent particularly well built and one star wars book describes them as 100,000 design flaws ready to be exploited .
No disputing star wars is superior sci fi but unfortunately against enterprise E its age starts to show (after all E is only 5 or 6 years old sd's nearly 30).

Thats not really evidance of crappy engineering.

Are you kidding? Thats textbook crappy engineering. Its a system that creates a greater danger to the crew.

And I dont think anyone has actually died from it, just been injured.

Oh, thats so much better. You can't recall anyone being killed.

The " Flag " ship of the federation is a small crusier compared to the scimitar.

Its the main ship of one of the top 4 empires in Trek. If that was made understandard, what does that say about the rest of them?

And I put "flag" in quotes because its refered to as the Feds flag ship, but has no FLAG OFFICER! In fact, they don't have anything close to what I'd call an officer.



The funny thing about Wong, he uses established canon and actual science to back up his arguments. He is never going to win a congeniality contest, but he knoiws his stuff an really presents his case.

Are you kidding? Thats textbook crappy engineering. Its a system that creates a greater danger to the crew.



Oh, thats so much better. You can't recall anyone being killed.



Its the main ship of one of the top 4 empires in Trek. If that was made understandard, what does that say about the rest of them?

And I put "flag" in quotes because its refered to as the Feds flag ship, but has no FLAG OFFICER! In fact, they don't have anything close to what I'd call an officer.



The funny thing about Wong, he uses established canon and actual science to back up his arguments. He is never going to win a congeniality contest, but he knoiws his stuff an really presents his case.


About the Enterprise and the Scimitar. The Enterprise was built to explore and engage in fleet battles. And remewber, the UFP is a peaceful group, ( usally ) and they're not into building giant fuck off sized battleships.

The scimitar was a physotic uber ship of death built by a bunch of renegade remans and a bald guy bent on destorying alll life on earth. What do you think is going to be more powerful?

Small Exploration Cruiser or a Plot Device Giant Battleship?




Save the fact that the entire movie is complete shit, thanks to richard burns. Just as bad as the Phantom Menace IMO, ( AOTC and ROTS was way better ).

Try this site, it makes sense.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

My two cents = the enterprise gets pwned. And I will explain why, sadly without the aid of diagrams.

Now both star wars and star trek have good guys and bad guys, and for the purpose of the serieses, good guys = win. Really, look at Star Wars. The empire ruled the galaxy for decades after taking over in episode 3 until some scrawny loser comes along and they start putting everything on film again: all of a sudden they lose - plot device. Now look at the Federation in Star Trek, they are the good guys so they automatically win - plot device. The federation has got to be some of the least technologically powerful federations among space faring races, maybe above the ferengi and thats it. The federation limits what kinds of weapons and accessories ships may use. Ever seen an official federation ship with a cloak? The Klingons and Romulans would blow the federation to hell if not for plot devices.


So here comes along a decked out battle cruiser vessel like the Imperial Star Destroyer, it has fleets of support vessels and more guns than you can shake a stick at: come on it's called a STAR destroyer. Then here comes along a a little ship from another tech universe: the star destroyer could probably hold 5 of them just for kicks. Who is going to win? The huge bad ass ship with more guns than anyone but Data cares to count. In an one on one fight, if the destroyer doesn't launch a bunch of fighters, the enterprise MIGHT scratch the IDS, hell it might escape without being blown to hell, but win - I don't think so

(note i didnt bother reading all 7million posts before this so ignore if its already mentioned)

but the enteprise is far far more manouverable than a star destroyer and its ability to target any section it wants gives it a huge advantage compared to the 'fill the sky' with laser tactics of SD's, lol i dont see a tractor beam working on it either, enterpise would zip about doding all the SD could throw with glee while zapping both shield generators then every laser platform juzt to leave it helpless, and then just for a laugh since its shields/armour are ridiculously good it could just drive straight through the bridge of the poor thing.
This aside theres also the ingenuity and resoursfullness that the crew has at its command, geordie can fix almost damage simply by redirecting the thingymagig through the flux capicitor or whatever, SD's to my understanding arent particularly well built and one star wars book describes them as 100,000 design flaws ready to be exploited .
No disputing star wars is superior sci fi but unfortunately against enterprise E its age starts to show (after all E is only 5 or 6 years old sd's nearly 30).

It has been. Many many many times. Read the thread.

I'm surprised how far this went, and how nerdy it is :)

About the Enterprise and the Scimitar. The Enterprise was built to explore and engage in fleet battles. And remewber, the UFP is a peaceful group, ( usally ) and they're not into building giant fuck off sized battleships.

See, I think the Enterprise is a pure battle ship. Its the primary ship in all engagements. And its used as a first contact ship.

No scientists, so science labs, nothing of the sort. Even when the USN uses its ownsubmarines to study natural occurances underwater, they bring scientists and equipment and such.

The scimitar was a physotic uber ship of death built by a bunch of renegade remans and a bald guy bent on destorying alll life on earth. What do you think is going to be more powerful?

It had to be built by the Romulans. Are you telling me a race of rottweilers like the Remans were able to build that thing right under their nose? All that technology and firepower doesn't just appear.

Small Exploration Cruiser or a Plot Device Giant Battleship?

#1 ship of supposedly the most powerful empire in the trekverse.

Try this site, it makes sense.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

Uhhh, that dummy has been addressed.

The Star Destroyer would win since it is so BIG. It has dozens of turbolasers, ion cannons and proton torpedo launchers. Not to mention squadrons of starfighters. These Star Trek vs. Star Wars questions are pointless since the Enterprise is a weak ship indeed.

The Star Destroyer would win since it is so BIG. It has dozens of turbolasers, ion cannons and proton torpedo launchers. Not to mention squadrons of starfighters. These Star Trek vs. Star Wars questions are pointless since the Enterprise is a weak ship indeed.
Exactly, when you remove the "good guys always win" plot device you have the Romulans ruling the galaxy and the Klingons going around ruining people's shit

See, I think the Enterprise is a pure battle ship. Its the primary ship in all engagements. And its used as a first contact ship.

No scientists, so science labs, nothing of the sort. Even when the USN uses its ownsubmarines to study natural occurances underwater, they bring scientists and equipment and such.



It had to be built by the Romulans. Are you telling me a race of rottweilers like the Remans were able to build that thing right under their nose? All that technology and firepower doesn't just appear.



#1 ship of supposedly the most powerful empire in the trekverse.



Uhhh, that dummy has been addressed.

Sorry, but the enterprise is classififed as a heavy explorer, not a battleship. The federation does not build battleships.

Case in point, the Enterprise E is 700 meters long. And not a battleship.

THIS http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/fed/images/dombatt_main.jpg
is an example of a trekverse battleship. 1.5kmm Long. With Phaser Poleron weapons that are far more capable than the Enterprises Phasers.


The Federation is NOT the most powerful Trekverse empire. That would go to 8472 or possibly the Borg. The UFP is the weakest " major " power.

Pay attention to words " when I built the scimitar at my secert base " ( when they are eating dinner in the senate.
WHy the fuck would the romulans build a ship for a guy that had a history of hating romulans. And would probably ( and did ) take over and kill off the senate?

And no he has not been adressed, he brings up a meaningful case.

The Federation is NOT the most powerful Trekverse empire. That would go to 8472 or possibly the Borg. The UFP is the weakest " major " power.

No. The Klingons or Romulans would be the weakest 'major' power, otherwise we would have seen the Federation conquered long ago. The Feds must be more powerful than the other two superpowers by a signifigant margin, otherwise there is no way they could have survived with their pathetic military in the TNG era.

And no he has not been adressed, he brings up a meaningful case.

He provides nothing other than circumstantial evidence for SW that contradicts just about every source we have, including the movies in some cases.

His evidence for Trek completely ignores visuals for the most part, and also ignores the legions of times we've seen weak trek weapons. Instead, he focuses on one or two outliers that appear to be exceptions to the rule.

Seriously ECF, far better debators than I have smacked Darkstar down. Much of what he says has no basis in real science, Trek/Wars canon, or even common sense.

No. The Klingons or Romulans would be the weakest 'major' power, otherwise we would have seen the Federation conquered long ago. The Feds must be more powerful than the other two superpowers by a signifigant margin, otherwise there is no way they could have survived with their pathetic military in the TNG era.
I see plot devices elude you. Both the klingons and romulans have more capability than the federation, especially the romulans

Sorry, but the enterprise is classififed as a heavy explorer, not a battleship. The federation does not build battleships.

Case in point, the Enterprise E is 700 meters long. And not a battleship.

THIS http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/fed/images/dombatt_main.jpg
is an example of a trekverse battleship. 1.5kmm Long. With Phaser Poleron weapons that are far more capable than the Enterprises Phasers.


The Federation is NOT the most powerful Trekverse empire. That would go to 8472 or possibly the Borg. The UFP is the weakest " major " power.

Pay attention to words " when I built the scimitar at my secert base " ( when they are eating dinner in the senate.
WHy the fuck would the romulans build a ship for a guy that had a history of hating romulans. And would probably ( and did ) take over and kill off the senate?

And no he has not been adressed, he brings up a meaningful case.


The federation does indeed build pure battleships... USS Prometheus and the USS Defiant were pretty much pure warship with top of the range Federation Technology.

Gul Dukat when refering to the Defiant said "Are you telling me, one of the most heavily armed warships in the quadrant is now in the hands of the marqui?"

The federation is far from being the weakest Trek power, They are just not warmongering.. They put up a hell of a fight agains't the dominion even before the romulans got involved, and their ships even though they aren't even DESIGNED for war seriously kick ass compared to other race warships.. Galaxy Class Starship VS Romulan Warbird for instance.. almost an even match, and the Galaxy class is not even a warship. And during the dominion wars the galaxy class was refitted and had alot of its luxuries removed for more firepower and weapon storage

I see plot devices elude you. Both the klingons and romulans have more capability than the federation, especially the romulans

that isn't true at all, The line of battleships built by the federation in preperation for the Borg were MORE than a match for *ANY* of the ships currently in use by either the Klingon or Romulan empires, The Enterprise 1701-D was twice the size and had equal firepower to the Klingon Vor'Cha attack cruiser which was the flagship at the time.

The Sovereign Class flagship
The Defiant class Warship/Escort
The Prometheus Class Battleship

are just some examples of what we saw in the series

No. The Klingons or Romulans would be the weakest 'major' power, otherwise we would have seen the Federation conquered long ago. The Feds must be more powerful than the other two superpowers by a signifigant margin, otherwise there is no way they could have survived with their pathetic military in the TNG era.



He provides nothing other than circumstantial evidence for SW that contradicts just about every source we have, including the movies in some cases.

His evidence for Trek completely ignores visuals for the most part, and also ignores the legions of times we've seen weak trek weapons. Instead, he focuses on one or two outliers that appear to be exceptions to the rule.

Seriously ECF, far better debators than I have smacked Darkstar down. Much of what he says has no basis in real science, Trek/Wars canon, or even common sense.

The Problem is that the Klingons are allied with the Federation so that balances out power.

Plus, any war would take massive losses on both sides. All 3 powers are close to each other, expect for the klingons. They're all almost equal. Besides, no federation would make a crappy show.

Yes, Darkstar is stupid at times. And he does use real science, and he is devoid of common sense. Hence the AT-ST " tank ".

What wong does it take the lower limits and set them as the highest for trek.

He consistantly has stated that the Enterprise is under 1 Terawatt in power, when its been stated to be much higher, more than once.

The Problem is that the Klingons are allied with the Federation so that balances out power.

As we saw in DS9, the Klingon's alliegance is about as stable as a kite in a hurricane.


And he does use real science,

Mind showing me where?

What wong does it take the lower limits and set them as the highest for trek.

Problem being that those lower limits are far, far more numerous than the two or three higher instances.

No. The Klingons or Romulans would be the weakest 'major' power, otherwise we would have seen the Federation conquered long ago. The Feds must be more powerful than the other two superpowers by a signifigant margin, otherwise there is no way they could have survived with their pathetic military in the TNG era.



He provides nothing other than circumstantial evidence for SW that contradicts just about every source we have, including the movies in some cases.

His evidence for Trek completely ignores visuals for the most part, and also ignores the legions of times we've seen weak trek weapons. Instead, he focuses on one or two outliers that appear to be exceptions to the rule.

Seriously ECF, far better debators than I have smacked Darkstar down. Much of what he says has no basis in real science, Trek/Wars canon, or even common sense.


The military in the TNG era was not pathetic, The galaxy class starship Enterprise was not the only 1 of its class and it was top of the federation fleet, The Excelsior class ship which seemed to be the most used ship in the federation at that time was not pathetic either, it packed an impressive firepower and was very manueverable hense why it stayed in service with refits from the Film time period of the Enterprise A.

Real science?? its Science fiction... its not supposed to be based on real science.. hense Warp 9.9? something like 99 times the speed of light, artificial gravity plating in the floor? science fiction! ><

As we saw in DS9, the Klingon's alliegance is about as stable as a kite in a hurricane.

That was because of a shapeshifters influence, General Martok was not the real general and also it was because of Chancellor's gowlron's attempts to bring the klingon empire back to its former glory.

The military in the TNG era was not pathetic,

In best of both worlds, we saw that the TNG era Federation considered forty ships a 'major loss.' Combine this with the anti-military rhetoric we hear practically every episode, mix in Rikers' incompetence in Generations, and you get a recipie for inferior TNG era SF military.

The galaxy class starship Enterprise was not the only 1 of its class and it was top of the federation fleet,

Oh wow... You've so won me over by giving an example of a science vessel with guns. If the Feds had developed a heavy capital warship from the ground up, it would probably be something that would make the Scimitar blush. Despite the fact that the GCS' purpose is dilluded, it can still defeat the mainline warships from other races. That tells me just how pathetic the other races' ships are.


Real science?? its Science fiction... its not supposed to be based on real science.. hense Warp 9.9? something like 99 times the speed of light, artificial gravity plating in the floor? science fiction! ><

Without real science, you have no way of quantifying anything. Suspension of disbelief demands you use real science unless you have no other choice.

also, i am a huge fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars

I prefer Star Trek but only by a very small margin, i know quite alot about both universes and this topic is literally like comparing a flying saucer to a packet of biscuits

They are nothing alike, they are both set in space that is the *ONLY* similarity.

Totally different physics to both universes, totally different types of starships in both universes.

Star Trek is a bit more real, and when i say real i use the term rediculously loosely, but only real in the sense of the science used (yes its still science fiction, but a little bit more believable than The Force and Jedi/Sith yadda yadda)

however i do think if we ever do get space technology, it will be alot like Star Wars style, Big hefty not very manueverable Starships with Star Fighters.

In best of both worlds, we saw that the TNG era Federation considered forty ships a 'major loss.' Combine this with the anti-military rhetoric we hear practically every episode, mix in Rikers' incompetence in Generations, and you get a recipie for inferior TNG era SF military.



Oh wow... You've so won me over by giving an example of a science vessel with guns. If the Feds had developed a heavy capital warship from the ground up, it would probably be something that would make the Scimitar blush. Despite the fact that the GCS' purpose is dilluded, it can still defeat the mainline warships from other races. That tells me just how pathetic the other races' ships are.




Without real science, you have no way of quantifying anything. Suspension of disbelief demands you use real science unless you have no other choice.


Science vessel with guns? did you EVER see the galaxy class ship actually fight? in TNG or DS9? it was a fucking monster with extremely powerful phasers that completely destroyed a K'vort class Klingon Battleship with 3 shots! It also obliterated alot of domionion ships and cardassion ones too!

The federation were NOT WAR LIKE!! why would they build a freaking monstrousity of a warship when their primary goal was science and exploration? the reason they considered 40 ships a great loss is because they are human... 40 ships was about what.. 20 - 30,000 people killed, including civilians. To a romulan or Klingon it wouldn't mean alot, but the whole point of Star Trek is Humans created the Federation and they have human values.

also, bear in mind that the Sovereign didn't have any direct sensors, the super reman ship WAITED until it was in a nebula before opening fire which shows that they didn't think they could totally destroy the Enterprise so easily. In open space the Enterprise might have done quite a bit more damage.

That battle was also in a film, films follow a different script point from a series, the romulans could have sent 90 Romulan Warbirds up agains't that ship, but wow great film, "Sir a romulan fleet just decloaked and creamed the other ship, lets all go home"

As for the riker incompetance in Generations, the Enterprise was supposed to be destroyed, it was part of the story in order to bring a new enterprise into the show/series/films in order to keep it new and entertaining. Hense why they didn't let Picard be the one who would have lost the enterprise.. as he is considered to be a great captain.

also, i am a huge fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars *snip*

As the borg say, irrelevant.

Totally different physics to both universes,

Incorrect. Both have human beings. The laws of physics in their universes must be almost exactly the same.

Star Trek is a bit more real, and when i say real i use the term rediculously loosely, but only real in the sense of the science used (yes its still science fiction, but a little bit more believable than The Force and Jedi/Sith yadda yadda)

Ask yourself: Is it better to use 'science' that is totally wrong in many major instances, or no science at all (and thus preserving the mysticism of it?)

Science vessel with guns? did you EVER see the galaxy class ship actually fight? in TNG or DS9? it was a fucking monster with extremely powerful phasers that completely destroyed a K'vort class Klingon Battleship with 3 shots! It also obliterated alot of domionion ships and cardassion ones too!

Which tells me that the Fed's enemies are even more pathetic if they are dominated by a ship like the GCS.

The federation were NOT WAR LIKE!! why would they build a freaking monstrousity of a warship when their primary goal was science and exploration?

Gee, I don't know... Perhaps to defend themselves from these other hostile governments who are, according to some in this thread, apparently *more* powerful than the Federation?

That battle was also in a film, films follow a different script point from a series, the romulans could have sent 90 Romulan Warbirds up agains't that ship, but wow great film, "Sir a romulan fleet just decloaked and creamed the other ship, lets all go home"

Suspension of disbelief.

I give up arguing with you, you blatantly aren't listening to a word im saying.

If you cant draw the line between science fiction and science, then thats your problem.

heres a real simple explanation for you

Federation = good guys

Good guys win

end

I give up arguing with you, you blatantly aren't listening to a word im saying.

Not quite true. I'm listening to what you're saying, I'm just dismissing it as the bullshit it is.

If you cant draw the line between science fiction and science, then thats your problem.

Suspension of disbelief disagrees with you. You haven't done many versus debates in the past, have you?

heres a real simple explanation for you

Federation = good guys

Good guys win

end

If you want to go that route:

Empire = only defeated by unruly teddy bears.

Fedration = major lack of unruly teddy bears.

Thus: Federation loses, just as hard as it would in a logical war between the GE and UFP. ;)

Which tells me that the Fed's enemies are even more pathetic if they are dominated by a ship like the GCS.



Gee, I don't know... Perhaps to defend themselves from these other hostile governments who are, according to some in this thread, apparently *more* powerful than the Federation?



Suspension of disbelief.

Well, if you paid attention to anything in DS9.

You would know that Cardasion ships are shit, and are easliy destoryed by small waves of fighters.

The GCS and other federation warships easliy destory most of the " cardie " ships.
But the Dominion ships are far better than anything the UFP has.

If you remeber when the USS Oddesy encounters a Jem Harder, GUNBOAT/Fighter it is nearly destoryed. And then the Jem Harder ship decides to ram it. Cuasing a warpcore breech which destory the ship.

The UFP is not a major power compared to powers like the Borg and Dominion Vessels.

And the romulan warbird is far better than a GCS, If you can recall in TNG it only takes 7 shots from its forward cannon to drain the sheilds by 70%

And the Federation does have warpships. Here are a few of them.

http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Def_main.jpg
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Aki_main.jpg
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Yea_main.jpg
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Pro_main.jpg ( coolest ship in all of Sci Fi )
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Ste_main.jpg

If you cant draw the line between science fiction and science, then thats your problem.

If you're not making your descision on who would win based on the science, then you can't expect people to acknowledge it as legitimate.

We have to accept that both ships have major weaknesses and strengths. The engines and bridge of each are far too exposed. Both have strong armor, whether from advanced tech or hull thickness. One thing that the ISD has in survaivability is that the central reactor is located in the exact center of the ship, while in the Enterprise, it is located towars the rear (correct) and is much more exposed to fire. Also, the notion that ISD gunners are unable to target specific areas on a target is a bunch of crap. They could easily fire on just the nacelles, or bridge. In the X-Wing series, which I believe is considered canon, book 7 "Isard's Revenge" an ISD concentrated it's fire on the narrow center of a ship and broke it in half within a minute or two. It could easily sever a nacelle or drill a hole through the bridge or warp core.

http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Def_main.jpg
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Aki_main.jpg
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Yea_main.jpg
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Pro_main.jpg ( coolest ship in all of Sci Fi )
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/images/Ste_main.jpg
Wern't those all from ST:Voyager? I remember the federation having a fleet of their advanced warships (voyager being set far enough ahead of TNG) sitting around waiting for voyager to pop out of some random wormhole then blow the borg to hell

If you're not making your descision on who would win based on the science, then you can't expect people to acknowledge it as legitimate.

We have to accept that both ships have major weaknesses and strengths. The engines and bridge of each are far too exposed. Both have strong armor, whether from advanced tech or hull thickness. One thing that the ISD has in survaivability is that the central reactor is located in the exact center of the ship, while in the Enterprise, it is located towars the rear (correct) and is much more exposed to fire. Also, the notion that ISD gunners are unable to target specific areas on a target is a bunch of crap. They could easily fire on just the nacelles, or bridge. In the X-Wing series, which I believe is considered canon, book 7 "Isard's Revenge" an ISD concentrated it's fire on the narrow center of a ship and broke it in half within a minute or two. It could easily sever a nacelle or drill a hole through the bridge or warp core.

The X-Wing series is indeed cannon (G-level, I believe is the term); however, when it disagrees with other things of the same level of canon in terms of performmance of ships, the other books are prefered. This is because the X-Wing books are openly stated to be based on the X-Wing series of computer games... and we all know how relyable game mechanics are...

http://3do.jediknight.net/dcm/misc/isd.gif

this is a good diagram of an ISD. ;)

lots more SW diagrams here:
http://3do.jediknight.net/dcm/cross.htm

Sorry, but the enterprise is classififed as a heavy explorer, not a battleship. The federation does not build battleships.

Defiant? Ever hear of it? How about Voyager?

And besides, thats a funky way of making an explorer vessel. No scietists and no laboratories.

Also, in that episode when the alien gave the crew amnesia and posed as one of them, they went about reading the ships profiel and armorments. They believed by themselves that it was a warship

And no, he never made any suggestions to them about it being a warship. They figured it out themselves.

The Federation can classify it as a milk truck, it doesn't change what its primary finction so obviously is.

Case in point, the Enterprise E is 700 meters long. And not a battleship.

Its primary use is combat.

THIS http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/fed/images/dombatt_main.jpg
is an example of a trekverse battleship. 1.5kmm Long. With Phaser Poleron weapons that are far more capable than the Enterprises Phasers.

And yet, the Fed "explorer" ships went toe to toe with those things. Hmmmmmm.


The Federation is NOT the most powerful Trekverse empire. That would go to 8472 or possibly the Borg. The UFP is the weakest " major " power.

The Borg are morons and 8472 exist in another universe. The Feds are the big dogs in the Milky Way.

Pay attention to words " when I built the scimitar at my secert base "

What freakin base? He was in that pit all those years.

WHy the fuck would the romulans build a ship for a guy that had a history of hating romulans. And would probably ( and did ) take over and kill off the senate?

They created him to be a match for Picard (geez, guys, get some ambition) so they wanted him to have a super weapon.

Or, maybe it wasn't meant for him. They built it or something and he grabbed it.

And no he has not been adressed, he brings up a meaningful case.

Sure, until you apply logic and proof to it.

Defiant? Ever hear of it? How about Voyager?

Did they finally settle on the Intrepid being a battleship? It's design and size seem to suggest more of a cruiser, though some of its armament (upgraded) I guess make it a contender.

And besides, thats a funky way of making an explorer vessel. No scietists and no laboratories.

The Galaxy class did have laboratories, several of them, though I don't know about the Sovereign. Since it's entire layout has never been seen too much onscreen, and I have no reference book for it.

Also, in that episode when the alien gave the crew amnesia and posed as one of them, they went about reading the ships profiel and armorments. They believed by themselves that it was a warship

Actually, it was suggested to them that it was a battleship by the alien impostor. They were disorientated and had no frame of reference.

And no, he never made any suggestions to them about it being a warship. They figured it out themselves.

IIRC, he says "we are a battleship"..... I do not have a copy of this, so if anyone can verify whether he says it or someone else, that would help.

The Federation can classify it as a milk truck, it doesn't change what its primary finction so obviously is.

Then it wastes an awful lot of time doing unbattleship like things.

Its primary use is combat.

And you are basing this on? We never saw any in any combat situation that would warrant its use. The battles of Chintoka and Cardassia both lack one (of course, it is techincally because the DS9 creators could not use its design), strange indeed. Also, with tensions on the rise and war about to break out, it seems a bit strange why the Feds would send one of thier only dedicated combat ships on a diplomacy mission in an isolated region of the Federation.

And yet, the Fed "explorer" ships went toe to toe with those things. Hmmmmmm.

Actually, I think most people are saying the Feds benefit from vastly more powerful technology (to other ST Empires), as evidenced by the fact that thier 'explorer' ships are able to do that.

The Borg are morons and 8472 exist in another universe. The Feds are the big dogs in the Milky Way.

And that was why they were so desperate to close the wormhole to the rest of the Dominion, or why even with the other two big dogs of thier little niche of the Galaxy, they almost lost to a force cutoff from home.


What freakin base? He was in that pit all those years.

I agree, the Scimitar didn't just appear, or be built in secret. I never heard him mention a secret base.


They created him to be a match for Picard (geez, guys, get some ambition) so they wanted him to have a super weapon.

Or, maybe it wasn't meant for him. They built it or something and he grabbed it.

I would lean towards the latter, or he struck a deal with rogue elements of the Romulan Government to have it built.

Defiant? Ever hear of it? How about Voyager?

And besides, thats a funky way of making an explorer vessel. No scietists and no laboratories.

Also, in that episode when the alien gave the crew amnesia and posed as one of them, they went about reading the ships profiel and armorments. They believed by themselves that it was a warship

And no, he never made any suggestions to them about it being a warship. They figured it out themselves.

The Federation can classify it as a milk truck, it doesn't change what its primary finction so obviously is.



Its primary use is combat.



And yet, the Fed "explorer" ships went toe to toe with those things. Hmmmmmm.




The Borg are morons and 8472 exist in another universe. The Feds are the big dogs in the Milky Way.



What freakin base? He was in that pit all those years.



They created him to be a match for Picard (geez, guys, get some ambition) so they wanted him to have a super weapon.

Or, maybe it wasn't meant for him. They built it or something and he grabbed it.



Sure, until you apply logic and proof to it.


Didnt I just list a bunch of federation warpships on the last page?

The Enterprise is primarly a exploration vessel. We've only seen it fight on screen. Exploration is good and all, but fighting is more fun on screen.

And remeber STI? Picard: No no no! We cant delay the arological expedition now, that'll put us right in middle of the monsoon season. "

Intrepid class ships are NOT warships. They're actually short range crusiers/explorers.

The Defiant is a just a testbest. Dont expect to see very many of those again.

Have you seen DS9 at all? The Federation ships got owned before StarFleet could figure out a defense aganist the Polaron beam. And a large number of ships were lost in that war, over 1500. And for a fleet that only has somwhere between 7000-8000 starships in service, thats a huge loss.

The Borg are not morons, they could easliy crush the federation. They have over a million ships. Well, yeah they are kinda stupid. Hey if one cube doesnt work! Send 2 prehaps?

8472 still can open a fuldic rift to the Trekverse if they wanted to.

The feds are NOT the bad boys. The Trekverse goes as follows.
1. 8472, Controls a whole universe
2. Borg, Controls almost half of the milky way, Unknown, possibly in the millions
3. Dominion - Controls 1/3 of the milky way, 60,000+ ships
( By a MASSIVE margin )
4. Romulan Star Empire, Size is estiamted around 5,000 LY
5. United Federation of planets, 8000 Ly, 7,000 ships or so ( after the dominion war )
6. Klingon Empire ( very weak after the dominion war. )
After them. I would say the Gorn or Hydra

He did have a friggen base, and he wasnt in a hole all those years. ( still most of his life though ) According to him. When Data read his starfleet profile, he was a very succesful commander in the dominion war.

They created him to be a match for picard, then decided aganist it, and shoved him in a hole.

Honestly, Do you even pay attention to the Trekverse?

But the Dominion ships are far better than anything the UFP has.

And yet the UFP, despite being outnumbered by these 'superior' Dominion ships was able to win. Strange. It is more likely that the Jem'Hadar rely upon their disposable 'bug' fighters as the main force of their fleet, with a few heavy capital ships as support.

But I'd like to hear your evidence for the Dominion capital ships being superior to the UFP's capships.


The UFP is not a major power compared to powers like the Borg and Dominion Vessels.

The Borg are idiots, I think this has been established fairly well in the series. Their nasty tendency to only send one ship to attack is thier undoing.

The Dominion on the other hand was ultimately defeated by the UFP and their allies.

And the romulan warbird is far better than a GCS, If you can recall in TNG it only takes 7 shots from its forward cannon to drain the sheilds by 70%

Yeah, *if* the GCS is directly in front of the warbird where practically all its firepower is concentrated. Add in that warbirds are less maneuverable than the GCS and you get a cooked D'deridex if the captain of the GCS is even remotely competent.

Have you seen DS9 at all? The Federation ships got owned before StarFleet could figure out a defense aganist the Polaron beam. And a large number of ships were lost in that war, over 1500. And for a fleet that only has somwhere between 7000-8000 starships in service, thats a huge loss.

And once they did, the battles tended to go in the UFP's favor, so much that the Dominion Expeditionary Force was forced to bring in the Breen as support.

The Borg are not morons, they could easliy crush the federation. They have over a million ships. Well, yeah they are kinda stupid. Hey if one cube doesnt work! Send 2 prehaps?

This statement proves the Borg are morons. First, there's the only sending one ship problem you mentioned. Then there's the idiocy inherent in taking a races technology by going back in time to before that technology was developed (the whole premise of First Contact.)

8472 still can open a fuldic rift to the Trekverse if they wanted to

Why should they want to?

Oh, and ECF, we have no proof that 8472 controls the entire realm of fluidic space. Nor do we know how large fluidic space is.

1. 8472, Controls a whole universe

Of unquantified size.

2. Borg, Controls almost half of the milky way, Unknown, possibly in the millions

Doesn't even control the entire delta quadrant. Now you're just outright lying.

3. Dominion - Controls 1/3 of the milky way, 60,000+ ships
( By a MASSIVE margin )

Controls a third of the milky way? No. Controls a sizable chunk of the Gamma Quadrant. Stop lying please.

I agree, the Scimitar didn't just appear, or be built in secret. I never heard him mention a secret base.


Its mentioned when he is talking to Picard at dinner.

Star Trek ships can fight at warp speed; Star Wars ships cannot. Even at sublight alone, even the old Constitution class could run rings around an ISD and its constituent fighters. Furthermore, the Sovereign class is a dedicated warship, not an explorer like the Galaxy. TNG reveals that laser weapons are absorbed by the 'navigational shields,' which I interpret to mean that they are filtered out like normal background radiation. I'm not sure how a flight's worth of heavy bombs (from the TIE Fighter series of games) would affect the Enterprise, but the point is moot because such weapons are so slow that a competent tactical officer could pick them off with the phaser array, or the Enterprise could dodge them.

The bottom line is that the two universes have a different approach to fighting ships. Star Wars uses a doctrine similar to modern naval warfare, with fighters, captial ships, and everything in between. Star Trek's doctrine has been mostly limited to large and small capital ships that can maneuver like fighters. (The Defiant is the most striking example of this.) In a battle between the two, Star Trek wins, every time. A more interesting question would be something like "Death Star I vs. Constitution class starship," but the result would still favor Trek.

Star Trek ships can fight at warp speed; Star Wars ships cannot. Even at sublight alone, even the old Constitution class could run rings around an ISD and its constituent fighters. Furthermore, the Sovereign class is a dedicated warship, not an explorer like the Galaxy. TNG reveals that laser weapons are absorbed by the 'navigational shields,' which I interpret to mean that they are filtered out like normal background radiation.


It's a well known fact that SW Turbolasers are not lasers in the same definition as we have now. A Turbolaser bolt is composed of high energy plasma, and the light that accompanies it is only a side effect. You can go to stardestroyer.net for a more detailed explanation.

It's a well known fact that SW Turbolasers are not lasers in the same definition as we have now. A Turbolaser bolt is composed of high energy plasma, and the light that accompanies it is only a side effect. You can go to stardestroyer.net for a more detailed explanation.


Okay, whatever. They still move at lightspeed or less. As a Sovereign captain, I just warp away from the enemy and launch a few torpedoes out the back, laughing as the enemy 'laser' blasts fall terribly short. Repeat as necessary.

Assuming we're even in range. In the LucasArts games turbolaser range was 2 km, tops. But again, the undeniable edge is in the Trek ships' dominant speed and maneuverability. You can't kill what you have no hope of hitting.

Okay, whatever. They still move at lightspeed or less. As a Sovereign captain, I just warp away from the enemy and launch a few torpedoes out the back, laughing as the enemy 'laser' blasts fall terribly short. Repeat as necessary.

Assuming we're even in range. In the LucasArts games turbolaser range was 2 km, tops. But again, the undeniable edge is in the Trek ships' dominant speed and maneuverability. You can't kill what you have no hope of hitting.

in ROTJ, combat initially occurs at ranges of a few thousands kilometres, eventually closing to a few hundred kilometres ("point blank" according to Lando) until Rebel ships are within a few dozen kilometres of the Executor.

It's also very difficult to fire on a ship not in warp when in warp, and the ISD can also jump to lightspeed at any time it wants to, making microjumps to outmaneuver the Enterprise. An SW ship traveling in hyperspace isn't difficult to hit, it's completely impossible, as the ship is not in real space anymore.

And yet the UFP, despite being outnumbered by these 'superior' Dominion ships was able to win. Strange.
With the aide of *duh duh duh* Plot device!

It is more likely that the Jem'Hadar rely upon their disposable 'bug' fighters as the main force of their fleet, with a few heavy capital ships as support.
Never layed hoemworld? Disposables are the main point of any fleet, you don't want to go around losing heavy cruisers. You use corvettes and fighters or cheap frigates as a fore runner then hit them with a few heavy capitals

And yet the UFP, despite being outnumbered by these 'superior' Dominion ships was able to win. Strange. It is more likely that the Jem'Hadar rely upon their disposable 'bug' fighters as the main force of their fleet, with a few heavy capital ships as support.

But I'd like to hear your evidence for the Dominion capital ships being superior to the UFP's capships.




The Borg are idiots, I think this has been established fairly well in the series. Their nasty tendency to only send one ship to attack is thier undoing.

The Dominion on the other hand was ultimately defeated by the UFP and their allies.



Yeah, *if* the GCS is directly in front of the warbird where practically all its firepower is concentrated. Add in that warbirds are less maneuverable than the GCS and you get a cooked D'deridex if the captain of the GCS is even remotely competent.



And once they did, the battles tended to go in the UFP's favor, so much that the Dominion Expeditionary Force was forced to bring in the Breen as support.



This statement proves the Borg are morons. First, there's the only sending one ship problem you mentioned. Then there's the idiocy inherent in taking a races technology by going back in time to before that technology was developed (the whole premise of First Contact.)



Why should they want to?

Oh, and ECF, we have no proof that 8472 controls the entire realm of fluidic space. Nor do we know how large fluidic space is.



Of unquantified size.



Doesn't even control the entire delta quadrant. Now you're just outright lying.



Controls a third of the milky way? No. Controls a sizable chunk of the Gamma Quadrant. Stop lying please.


You think the UFP is the major power in the Trekverse, so your full of shit.

While I was incorrect, Compare the size of the Dominion and Borg to the UFP and ferinds http://www.ditl.org/gpgm/GMapGalaxy.jpg ( And I know that DITL can be full of shit and often is, but you can get that same map at star trek.com, I'm just to damm lazy to look for it. )

OK, Why are dominion captial ships better? Well.

Dare to comapre?
SCS:
http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/dom/sov.php

Compared to

http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/fed/batts.php

Or even http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/fed/battc.php

( And note, before you start bitching, that is NOT a vs site, so it doesnt actually have a reason to lie )

And not that the losses on the Allied side were HUGE. Expect for plot devices, the federation would have been crushed.

The Battles Tended to go in the UFPs favor, with MASSIVE losses. If it wasnt for all those pesky founders tricks, and section 31, the feds would be fucked.

The Dominion was only pushed out of the Alpha Quadrent. They were not defeated totally, They're still out there.

Why would 8472 want to? Because they think they are the best forms of life, and want to kill everything. And because Voyagers 8472 killing nanties were handed over to the borg, it basicly scared them away.

It's also very difficult to fire on a ship not in warp when in warp, and the ISD can also jump to lightspeed at any time it wants to, making microjumps to outmaneuver the Enterprise. An SW ship traveling in hyperspace isn't difficult to hit, it's completely impossible, as the ship is not in real space anymore.

Hyperspace is not instantaneous travel. Ben and Luke had a lot of time to chat about the Force on their way to Alderaan in the Falcon, which was allegedly the fastest hyperdrive ship out there. The Falcon is supposed to be impressively fast, and it can travel "point five past lightspeed." Whereas, the Sovereign can travel at warp factor 9 without any trouble, and warp 9 is equivalent to 1,516 times c (memory-alpha.org). Hyperspace navigation is by no means simple, either. One might ask why the ISDs chasing the Falcon in "A New Hope" didn't just do what you suggest, jumping ahead of Solo and blocking him.

Sublight, nothing in the Star Wars world can touch anything in Trek. By the time in The Motion Picture, full impulse is .8 times c. With Star Wars, it gets a little trickier, since the unit of speed is given in acceleration. The MGLT, according to my source, is equal to 400 m / s^2. One would expect an ISD's fighters to be faster than her, so if she launches a flight of TIE Defenders (rated at 155 MGLT normally, or 62,000 m / s^2), it would take them 3,871 seconds (almost 65 minutes) to match a Trek ship at full impulse. Naturally, this all assumes that the folks down at Sienar Fleet Systems have found a way around relativaty, or else the acceleration ability of that fighter will naturally diminish as its mass increases.

Hyperspace is not instantaneous travel.

No shit sherlock.

Ben and Luke had a lot of time to chat about the Force on their way to Alderaan in the Falcon, which was allegedly the fastest hyperdrive ship out there. The Falcon is supposed to be impressively fast, and it can travel "point five past lightspeed."

The ".5 past light speed" refers to the hyperdrive class not its speed numbnuts. The Tatooine/Alderaan trip took hours at most. Why else would Han say "We'll be there at 0200" if he was going to be there next week?

Whereas, the Sovereign can travel at warp factor 9 without any trouble, and warp 9 is equivalent to 1,516 times c (memory-alpha.org).

And hyperdrive is normally 10 million to 100 million times c. They cross the galaxy in hours, while It would take Voyager 70 years to do the same.

Hyperspace navigation is by no means simple, either. One might ask why the ISDs chasing the Falcon in "A New Hope" didn't just do what you suggest, jumping ahead of Solo and blocking him.

The Falcon is faster at FTL than an ISD whle the ISD is faster at STL.

Sublight, nothing in the Star Wars world can touch anything in Trek. By the time in The Motion Picture, full impulse is .8 times c. With Star Wars, it gets a little trickier, since the unit of speed is given in acceleration. The MGLT, according to my source, is equal to 400 m / s^2. One would expect an ISD's fighters to be faster than her, so if she launches a flight of TIE Defenders (rated at 155 MGLT normally, or 62,000 m / s^2), it would take them 3,871 seconds (almost 65 minutes) to match a Trek ship at full impulse. Naturally, this all assumes that the folks down at Sienar Fleet Systems have found a way around relativaty, or else the acceleration ability of that fighter will naturally diminish as its mass increases.

Acceleration is more important than velocity. Trek ships have at most 1500G acceleration while Wars ships have accelerations of 3000G plus. Wars ships are faster.

Please read the thread.

Hyperspace is not instantaneous travel. Ben and Luke had a lot of time to chat about the Force on their way to Alderaan in the Falcon, which was allegedly the fastest hyperdrive ship out there. The Falcon is supposed to be impressively fast, and it can travel "point five past lightspeed." Whereas, the Sovereign can travel at warp factor 9 without any trouble, and warp 9 is equivalent to 1,516 times c (memory-alpha.org). Hyperspace navigation is by no means simple, either. One might ask why the ISDs chasing the Falcon in "A New Hope" didn't just do what you suggest, jumping ahead of Solo and blocking him.

I never said Hyperspace travel was instantaneous. However, neither is Warp travel. A microjump refers to a hyperspace jump lasting only a few seconds, to travel from the orbit of one planet to another, or only traveling a few million km. Whichever way you slice it, there is conclusive proof, using canon sources from both universes that hyperspace travel is faster than warp travel. Xessmithia is right when he/she says that the ".5 past light speed doesnot refer to actual speed, but hyperdrive classification. They made the trip from Tatooine which is in the Outer Rim of the SW galaxy, to Alderaan, a planet in the core systems, in a matter of hours. If you don't accept that as proof, try this:
Star Trek Enterprise D
Max warp speed: ~2000c (warp 9.6), sustainable 12 hours for a single sprint of roughly 3 light-years. This appears to have increased to roughly 3000c for newer ships such as the Intrepid-class.
Star Wars Hyperspace Travel
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).


Sublight, nothing in the Star Wars world can touch anything in Trek. By the time in The Motion Picture, full impulse is .8 times c. With Star Wars, it gets a little trickier, since the unit of speed is given in acceleration. The MGLT, according to my source, is equal to 400 m / s^2. One would expect an ISD's fighters to be faster than her, so if she launches a flight of TIE Defenders (rated at 155 MGLT normally, or 62,000 m / s^2), it would take them 3,871 seconds (almost 65 minutes) to match a Trek ship at full impulse. Naturally, this all assumes that the folks down at Sienar Fleet Systems have found a way around relativaty, or else the acceleration ability of that fighter will naturally diminish as its mass increases.

Wrong once more, Jango Fett's Slave 1, which is an aging, albeit customized patrol craft, can out accelerate the Enterprise D in slower than light travel.

Star Wars: Slave-1
Sublight acceleration: 2500G

Star Trek Enterprise D
Sublight acceleration: 1000G


This small privately owned patrol craft acclerates roughly 2.5 times as fast as the Enterprise D. Even if we assume that the Sovereign class Enterprise E has improved, maybe even tripled that number. You also have to accept that a government owned and built military capital ship is bound to be capable of beter acceleration than a 20+ year old patrol craft.

Stormtroopers enter ST starship, stormtroopers annihilate puny federation dudes. Destroyer wins.

This small privately owned patrol craft acclerates roughly 2.5 times as fast as the Enterprise D. Even if we assume that the Sovereign class Enterprise E has improved, maybe even tripled that number. You also have to accept that a government owned and built military capital ship is bound to be capable of beter acceleration than a 20+ year old patrol craft.acceleration isn't the point. Top speed is.
and don't forget, all ST crafts are now limited to... what was it, Warp 4 when they found out that the warp engines were tearing the fabric of subspace in that one episode...

You think the UFP is the major power in the Trekverse, so your full of shit.

A pathetic attempt at a strawman. I think the UFP is the major power in the Alpha/Beta quadrant. The Borg take the cake for the major power in the Trek galaxy (if only they weren't so stupid!)

While I was incorrect, Compare the size of the Dominion and Borg to the UFP and ferinds http://www.ditl.org/gpgm/GMapGalaxy.jpg ( And I know that DITL can be full of shit and often is, but you can get that same map at star trek.com, I'm just to damm lazy to look for it. )

...Yeah, I was disputing your stupid assertion that the Dominion controls a quarter of the galaxy. They do not.

*Snip*
( And note, before you start bitching, that is NOT a vs site, so it doesnt actually have a reason to lie )

Those sites don't look very canon to me. Looks more like fan speculation. Unless they listed the episodes where they derived those stats from and I just missed it?


The Battles Tended to go in the UFPs favor, with MASSIVE losses. If it wasnt for all those pesky founders tricks, and section 31, the feds would be fucked.

First: Founder tricks would likely harm the Federation rather than help them.

Second: I remember that by the end of the series, the FKR alliance was pushing into Cardassian space and fighting off the dominion.

Third: The only thing that seemed to even slow the Feds down was the sheer number of Jem'Hadar bugs and those phased polothingies at the beginning of the war.

Fourth: If the Dominion was capable of defeating the Feds on their own, why did they have to enlist the Breen?

The Dominion was only pushed out of the Alpha Quadrent. They were not defeated totally, They're still out there.

The Federation got them to make peace. It's not like the Dominion was so powerful that they would have crushed the Federation in weeks (like the Galactic Empire is.)

Why would 8472 want to? Because they think they are the best forms of life, and want to kill everything. And because Voyagers 8472 killing nanties were handed over to the borg, it basicly scared them away.

And yet in a few episodes down the road, we have Voyager giving 8472 the nanites as a gesture of good will when they encounter the 8472 infiltrators posing as starfleet personnel. In fact, 8472 didn't annihilate Voyager at first site in that episode, even at the end when they knew Voyager was there. If 8472 were the xenophobic maniacs you think, they would have simply killed Voyager after they got the nanite technology.

Who wins?
The USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-E or an Imperial class star destroyer?

I saw the Sovereign class vessel or Big-E in this case.

The star destroyers seem to have weak shields as fighters have little problems taking them ouy. YOu basically just hit the huge spheres atop the bridge. They also are armed with lasers. Lasers are encountered in Star Trek: Enterprise. They are treated as inferior weapons when put up against phasers in Star Trek.

Now lets look at a Sovereign class starship. They have heavy shielding that would have no problem with lasers. They also are armed with phasers, which would have no problem against the weak shields of a SD. In addition to that, they also would be able to penetrate the hulls. Quantum and photon torpedoes are also superior to any SD weapon, especially with the anti-matter photon torps have.

The one thing a SD has going for it is its bulk. It takes a lot of firepower to do much damage to the hull, that is if you are aiming for the hull. A single quantum torpedo to the bridge would likely destroy the ship as an A-wing colliding with the bridge destroyed the ship. Imagine what a spread of torpedoes or directed phaser fire would do.


This arugment is SO old.

YEARS ago in Wizard they posted a scenario about this exact same thing. SINCE A FEDERATION STARSHIP cannot be hurt by LASER fire a star destroyer could not even punch through the shields. While the Enterprise or any other federation vessel would just pick the SD apart. It wouldn't even matter if it was a SSD or SD II :)

Just a note, you guys: the Galaxy-class was an armed explorer. The Sovereign-class was a full-on warship.

This arugment is SO old.

YEARS ago in Wizard they posted a scenario about this exact same thing. SINCE A FEDERATION STARSHIP cannot be hurt by LASER fire a star destroyer could not even punch through the shields. While the Enterprise or any other federation vessel would just pick the SD apart. It wouldn't even matter if it was a SSD or SD II :)

Read the topic, Turbo lasers are not lasers in our sense of the word.

Read the topic, Turbo lasers are not lasers in our sense of the word.add torpedoes and Ion Cannons... and I think those SCS sheilds would be coming down rather quickly...

But, guys, its Wizard. You know Wizard. They can't even get their own industry right.

Maybe all that time they aren't putting into comic book stories, they are actually using on scifi television and movies.

This arugment is SO old.

You're quite right. It is. Stupid trekkies use it all the time, despite the fact that two episodes afterwards, the Enterprise D is threatened by lasers. Here ya go.

PICARD VOICEOVER: Captain's log, Stardate 42411.2 ... the two sides of a bitter little planetary conflict have petitioned Starfleet to transport to their world a mediator they have mutually selected. Our orders are transportation only -- no interference, no responsibilities. It is a mission much to my liking.

...

WORF: I'm reading laser activity in the Solari Solar System!

RIKER: How concentrated is the activity?

WORF: It is localized -- and very intense.

RIKER: So much for the cease-fire.

PICARD: Open hailing frequencies.

WORF: I can establish voice only.

PICARD: This is Captain Jean-Luc Picard, commander of the Federation starship USS Enterprise. If you continue to violate the rules by breaking the cease-fire, I will abort this mission.

FIRST LEADER: You have no jurisdiction here, Picard. Where is Riva?

PICARD: Riva is in charge of the summit. I command the ship that brings him. I will not endanger my ship under any circumstances.

Emphasis mine.

Kind of shoots the idiot Trekkie idea that their ships are immune to lasers right out of the water. If they weren't threatened by lasers, why would Picard say that he won't endanger his ship by flying between two groups using them?

That doesn't explicitly state that the ship will be damaged by them. You don't know if the endangering comment is in reference to the lasers.

What else could it be? The lasers obviously break the cease-fire and Picard got all soft in the groinal area at the mention of lasers.

Read the topic, Turbo lasers are not lasers in our sense of the word.


I did read the topic. I have friends that read both the star wars and star trek technical manuals. Lasers in star wars wouldn't do a thing according to what they have read.

I myself really don't care. I just like to be entertained by these arguments. Sort of like are you a TREKKER or a TREKKIE? :D

I did read the topic. I have friends that read both the star wars and star trek technical manuals. Lasers in star wars wouldn't do a thing according to what they have read.

Then your friends are obviously outdone intellectually by a soapdish. Only an idiot would think that just because the E-D can resist the lasers from a primitive race just entering space, that they could resist any laser of any magnitude, or especially a 'laser' that isn't a true laser at all.

That doesn't explicitly state that the ship will be damaged by them. You don't know if the endangering comment is in reference to the lasers.

...Interhard covered this, but just to pound it into your head: The quote mentions no other weapons. No 'nuclear explosions,' no 'photon explosions,' nothing except lasers. And since lasers seemed to be these races' primary weapons (from the quote,) anyone with two braincells can surmise that Picard is in fact refering to their lasers when he talks about his ship under threat.

And of course, there's the borg cutting laser from "Q-who" I think it was.

...Interhard covered this, but just to pound it into your head: The quote mentions no other weapons. No 'nuclear explosions,' no 'photon explosions,' nothing except lasers. And since lasers seemed to be these races' primary weapons (from the quote,) anyone with two braincells can surmise that Picard is in fact refering to their lasers when he talks about his ship under threat.

And of course, there's the borg cutting laser from "Q-who" I think it was.

You're wrong, it requires three brain cells to realize that. ;)

Kind of shoots the idiot Trekkie idea that their ships are immune to lasers right out of the water. If they weren't threatened by lasers, why would Picard say that he won't endanger his ship by flying between two groups using them?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Laser_cannon

Kind of shoots your presumption out of the water

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Laser_cannon

Kind of shoots your presumption out of the water

No it doesn't. You'll note how that says nothing about immunity to lasers at all. And of course it doesn't even disprove the quote I put up, since it still says 'few races other than the ones mentioned.' But that's a Wiki and consequently isn't particularly reliable for this sort of debate because anyone can change it to anything.

And of course, direct quote from the episode in question defeats uncited wiki in terms of proof. :D

YEARS ago in Wizard they posted a scenario about this exact same thing. SINCE A FEDERATION STARSHIP cannot be hurt by LASER fire a star destroyer could not even punch through the shields. While the Enterprise or any other federation vessel would just pick the SD apart. It wouldn't even matter if it was a SSD or SD II :)

Turbolaser bolts travel slower than light, therefore they are not lasers. Much as phaser rifles do not have a rifled barrel, therefore they are not rifles. Unless you want to argue that phaser rifles actually shoot bullets, of course...

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Laser_cannon

Kind of shoots your presumption out of the water

LoL, you might as well write your own web site and present that as proof :rolleyes: :)

It's nice to see people listening to reason around here, even if the ISD's guns were only as powerful as phasers, it's got many times more of them then the E-D does, plus has a whole wing of TIEs vs. some piddly little shuttles. But the Imps might want to be careful about using Ion cannons, they might cause the Warp Core to overload (Lord knows it does so just about every other week :D )

LoL, you might as well write your own web site and present that as proof :rolleyes: :)

It's nice to see people listening to reason around here, even if the ISD's guns were only as powerful as phasers, it's got many times more of them then the E-D does, plus has a whole wing of TIEs vs. some piddly little shuttles. But the Imps might want to be careful about using Ion cannons, they might cause the Warp Core to overload (Lord knows it does so just about every other week :D )but the warp core overloading is a win for the ISD... of course only if they can get far enough away...

and considering the explosion of a warp core going isn't that big, heck the D was close to the Yamato when it blew... and there were other examples of ships with WCB's blowing up in relative nearness to other ships.

but the warp core overloading is a win for the ISD... of course only if they can get far enough away...

and considering the explosion of a warp core going isn't that big, heck the D was close to the Yamato when it blew... and there were other examples of ships with WCB's blowing up in relative nearness to other ships.

I agree, the warp core starting to overload would be detected as a huge energy spike and the Imps would realize that something was gonna blow. They would run some quick calculations and hype to a safe distance, say half a million kilometers, where their sensors would still be able to detect the explosion, but they'd be safe from any shock waves or radiation.

It's nice to see people listening to reason around here, even if the ISD's guns were only as powerful as phasers, it's got many times more of them then the E-D does, plus has a whole wing of TIEs vs. some piddly little shuttles.
Exactly. Even if the ISD's guns were only 1/10 as powerful as the Enterprise-E's, they'd be evenly matched. Enterprise has 14 phaser arrays. ISD has 120 guns. Enterprise can only bring 4-6 phasers in line with a single target while the and ISD can bring focus nearly 100 guns on a single target.

Exactly. Even if the ISD's guns were only 1/10 as powerful as the Enterprise-E's, they'd be evenly matched. Enterprise has 14 phaser arrays. ISD has 120 guns. Enterprise can only bring 4-6 phasers in line with a single target while the and ISD can bring focus nearly 100 guns on a single target.

And it's quite obvious that at least the Heavy Turbolaser and Ion Cannon Batteries located on the ISD dorsal surface are at least as powerful as a phaser array with all the barrels taken into account as one weapon. That means that the ISD has 8 weapons platforms that match the E-E's phaser arrays.

1. In STNG, Picard is all too willing to lower the shields because Counselor Troy says "I am feeling something".

Other Federation commanders are likely to be of similar ilk.

2. Imperial officers seem like the "shoot first, ask questions later" type.

So, it is no contest, The Star Destroyer wins, based on the merit of it's commander.

3. But a Cyclon Base Star from the new BSG would probably take them both.

3. But a Cyclon Base Star from the new BSG would probably take them both.

Care to back up that claim? And it's Cylon.

can i just humbly point out that we are talking about 2 vessels which function in two different fictional universes with two differnt fictional laws of physics (well at least the start trek universe has properly thought through things like that and not just a load of special effects). And thus it is niether practicle or significant or indeed possible to compare the two in an out and out fight.
Having said that the Enterprise E rocks and would cream the ISD with but a few torpedoes.

can i just humbly point out that we are talking about 2 vessels which function in two different fictional universes with two differnt fictional laws of physics (well at least the start trek universe has properly thought through things like that and not just a load of special effects). And thus it is niether practicle or significant or indeed possible to compare the two in an out and out fight.
Having said that the Enterprise E rocks and would cream the ISD with but a few torpedoes.

Dozens of turbolasres, ion cannons, and proton torpedo launchers. Squadrons of fighters. A Star Destroyer is BIG. It is quite obvious who would win this fight since Star Trek ships suck.

can i just humbly point out that we are talking about 2 vessels which function in two different fictional universes with two differnt fictional laws of physics

SW and ST do not, and cannot have differing laws of physics since they still have recognizable human beings in them. If the laws of physics were different, this wouldn't be the case.

(well at least the start trek universe has properly thought through things like that and not just a load of special effects).

No. Startrek is not properly thought out when you look at its science. Most of its science is totally wrong. SW doesn't bother to explain everything out, so we can't say wether its physics are wrong or not.

And thus it is niether practicle or significant or indeed possible to compare the two in an out and out fight.

We can look at their demonstrated abilties. Unfortunately for you, this seems to conflict with the Trekwanking in this thead, since the demonstrated capabilities of an ISD are signifigantly better than those of the Soverign.

Having said that the Enterprise E rocks and would cream the ISD with but a few torpedoes.

Patently false. Perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence?

Care to back up that claim? And it's Cylon.

Oh sure. Piece of cake.

So all three ships happen to meet in space.

The Federation ship's counselor says something obvious like:
"I feel they do not trust us."

At which point the ship's captain says:

"Let's show them our good intentions by dropping the shields."

Upon which they are immediately swarmed by Cylon raiders and blasted by the main batteries of the Base Star.

Federation ship destroyed via typical incompetence.

The Imperial Star Destroyer sees this, and being extremely aggressive, attacks. However, it doesn't really carry enough TIE fighters to deal with all the Cylon Raiders, nor is it powerful enough to deal with the Base Star using it's main guns, so in typical Imperial fashion they try to board the ship.

This is where it goes really wrong for them. The Star Destroyer pulls in next to the Base Star and the Stormtroopers blow a hole in the side of the ship and rush aboard. So far so good. BUT being the troopers are wearing silly plastic armor which seemingly has never protected them from anything and only weighs them down....they get slaughtered by the toasters. The toasters storm aboard the Star Destroyer and that is the end of the game.

I base this all on observations of the characters in the various series, rather than speculation on the power of fantasy weapons.

1. Federation commanders are always stupidly optomistic and their foes always seem to get the drop on them, at least initially.

2. Imperial commanders are always silly overconfident and apparently always easily outwitted and defeated by a wookie, a man dating Calista Flockhart and a guy doing voice overs on TLC.

3. Cylons seem to deviate from the standard Sci-Fi bad guy role in that they don't make too many mistakes, are persistent and have plans and schemes of their own.

Oh sure. Piece of cake.

So all three ships happen to meet in space.

The Federation ship's counselor says something obvious like:
"I feel they do not trust us."

At which point the ship's captain says:

"Let's show them our good intentions by dropping the shields."

Upon which they are immediately swarmed by Cylon raiders and blasted by the main batteries of the Base Star.

Federation ship destroyed via typical incompetence.

I agree with you up to that point.


The Imperial Star Destroyer sees this, and being extremely aggressive, attacks. However, it doesn't really carry enough TIE fighters to deal with all the Cylon Raiders, nor is it powerful enough to deal with the Base Star using it's main guns, so in typical Imperial fashion they try to board the ship.

This is where it goes really wrong for them. The Star Destroyer pulls in next to the Base Star and the Stormtroopers blow a hole in the side of the ship and rush aboard. So far so good. BUT being the troopers are wearing silly plastic armor which seemingly has never protected them from anything and only weighs them down....they get slaughtered by the toasters. The toasters storm aboard the Star Destroyer and that is the end of the game.

Here's where I differ. The Star Destroyer, when it's 72 fighters/bombers begin to be chewed up, recalls them and calls the rest of the fleet to hype in and hit the cylons. A small task force would probably include another ISD II, maybe a Victory class destroyer, a Lancer class cruiser that would chew up the raiders and a couple of smaller support craft.

Oh sure. Piece of cake.

So all three ships happen to meet in space.

The Federation ship's counselor says something obvious like:
"I feel they do not trust us."

At which point the ship's captain says:

"Let's show them our good intentions by dropping the shields."

Upon which they are immediately swarmed by Cylon raiders and blasted by the main batteries of the Base Star.

Federation ship destroyed via typical incompetence.

The Imperial Star Destroyer sees this, and being extremely aggressive, attacks. However, it doesn't really carry enough TIE fighters to deal with all the Cylon Raiders, nor is it powerful enough to deal with the Base Star using it's main guns, so in typical Imperial fashion they try to board the ship.

This is where it goes really wrong for them. The Star Destroyer pulls in next to the Base Star and the Stormtroopers blow a hole in the side of the ship and rush aboard. So far so good. BUT being the troopers are wearing silly plastic armor which seemingly has never protected them from anything and only weighs them down....they get slaughtered by the toasters. The toasters storm aboard the Star Destroyer and that is the end of the game.

That is, of course, until Gandalf shows up with Winnie the Pooh in tow. Curious George shows up too, and the puzzle piece he swallowed will foul a vital piece of equipment in the control room, throwing the positro...er...tachyo...hyperelectronical whizbang into smurdle...

Which of course is the end of the toasters.

Meanwhile, Doctor Who has managed trick Merlin out of his magic hat. Zaphod, at the next table, covets the hat as well, since it should look hoopy on his 2nd head.

This of course means that Buck Rogers and Wilma are in extreme peril and it is up to Hawk to save them. Avery Brooks looks up at that moment, remembering his Spenser For Hire days, but we're not talking about him so he eventually gets tired and wanders away.

Meanwhile Will Robinson is yet again in danger because Judy Jetson is making him feel like his jumpsuit is two sizes too small. He goes to Lister to ask for his sage wisdom, only to be told to smeg off.

So now who is gonna gain control of the spice? You guessed it. Big Brother.

I think that about covers it.

the star destoryer looks deadly and is deadly..the fed ship looks like its made out of used oncon pots and probably is half as effective..the empire rules a dozens of star sytems and therefore must have done so by using GOOD ships! it stands to reason

the star destoryer looks deadly and is deadly..the fed ship looks like its made out of used oncon pots and probably is half as effective..the empire rules a dozens of star sytems and therefore must have done so by using GOOD ships! it stands to reason

Correction: the Emprie rules hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of star systems.

I agree with you up to that point.




Here's where I differ. The Star Destroyer, when it's 72 fighters/bombers begin to be chewed up, recalls them and calls the rest of the fleet to hype in and hit the cylons. A small task force would probably include another ISD II, maybe a Victory class destroyer, a Lancer class cruiser that would chew up the raiders and a couple of smaller support craft.

A-HA!!! So you admit the SD alone isn't up to the task!

Did I mention that at somepoint a guy in a red shirt get's beamed down to the planet only to have all the hemoglobin sucked out his body?...or salt?...and he meets Lincoln?...

And also a guy that sounds like James Earl Jones uses "the force" to change the channel so he can watch WWE?

Seriously....the Base Star wins because the cylon babes are hot and there is no way Kirk can resist a hot alien babe, even if she is a machine.

A-HA!!! So you admit the SD alone isn't up to the task!

Cylon ships use megaton level (fifty megaton IIRC) missiles to bombard planets. The one they used on the Galactica (which fucked up the Galactica pretty bad) was around fifty kilotons. An ISD's heavy guns have been demonstrated to put out gigatons worth of energy in the Hoth asteroid fields.

The Cylon base-star is outgunned.

Correction: the Emprie rules hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of star systems.

Almost. I believe that the Empire has a million 'member' systems, and quite a few more, less important systems under its sway.

Ref: ANH novelization.

Cylon ships use megaton level (fifty megaton IIRC) An ISD's heavy guns have been demonstrated to put out gigatons worth of energy in the Hoth asteroid fields.



Let's use a little common sense here:

1. If an SDs guns could put out GIGATONS of energy at a shot...or about 1000 Hiroshima bombs (at a shot!) then there would really be no need for a Death Star, would there? You could eradicate all life on the surface of a planet pretty quickly.

2. Clearly you do not understand that CYLON CHICKS ARE HOT!!!! That trumps everything else.

Let's use a little common sense here:

1. If an SDs guns could put out GIGATONS of energy at a shot...or about 1000 Hiroshima bombs (at a shot!) then there would really be no need for a Death Star, would there? You could eradicate all life on the surface of a planet pretty quickly.

They can, it's called Base Delta Zero. The Death Star was designed to deal with heavily defended planets with strong planetary shields.

2. Clearly you do not understand that CYLON CHICKS ARE HOT!!!! That trumps everything else.and clearly you underestimate Kirks power of Pursuasion. heck, he and the Enterprise Command Crew totally defeated a race of Androids without weapons.

Let's use a little common sense here:

Yes, let's do that.

1. If an SDs guns could put out GIGATONS of energy at a shot...or about 1000 Hiroshima bombs (at a shot!) then there would really be no need for a Death Star, would there? You could eradicate all life on the surface of a planet pretty quickly.

As previously mentioned a single ISD can indeed destroy all life on a planet. In fact it melts the crust while doing so and does it in under an hour.

It can't however blow up a planet through insanely powerfull planetary shields like the Death Star can.

2. Clearly you do not understand that CYLON CHICKS ARE HOT!!!! That trumps everything else.

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/aayla_secura.jpg

I rest my case.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperial Navy f***ed this one up though. Even if we accept an SD.net version of both univserse's power, I wouldn't put it past the SD to screw something up. We are talking about the fleet that lost the Battle of Endor.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperial Navy f***ed this one up though. Even if we accept an SD.net version of both univserse's power, I wouldn't put it past the SD to screw something up. We are talking about the fleet that lost the Battle of Endor.

Wow! What an argument, you totally changed my mind with your amazing debating skills. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperial Navy f***ed this one up though. Even if we accept an SD.net version of both univserse's power, I wouldn't put it past the SD to screw something up. We are talking about the fleet that lost the Battle of Endor.

It was the Imperial *army* that lost the ground battle at Endor by being surprised and heavily outnumbered by the Ewoks. And even then the ROTJ Novelization notes that the Stormies were winning until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST.

The fleet displayed no incompetence what so ever, except following the Emperor's orders to try and keep them from escaping. And following orders can hardly be counted as incompetent.

A-HA!!! So you admit the SD alone isn't up to the task!

Did I mention that at somepoint a guy in a red shirt get's beamed down to the planet only to have all the hemoglobin sucked out his body?...or salt?...and he meets Lincoln?...

And also a guy that sounds like James Earl Jones uses "the force" to change the channel so he can watch WWE?

Seriously....the Base Star wins because the cylon babes are hot and there is no way Kirk can resist a hot alien babe, even if she is a machine.

I don't know much about Cylon technology so I wasn't going to make any statements about who would win. I do know about Imperial tactics though, so that's what I adressed in my post.

I rest my case.


Ack!!! Good Lord Man!....that's purple...with wierd things off her head!!!
You need another case!!!

(Unless, of course, that is the kinda thing that really tickles your fancy. In which case, go ahead.)

An ISD can slag the surface of a planet in a few hours.

A Sovereign Starship can't.

ISD for teh win!

Wow! What an argument, you totally changed my mind with your amazing debating skills. :rolleyes:

Had you bothered to notice you might understand the sarcasm in that post. Unless you seriously think the ST crowd has swayed me so far over to there side. Or did you not read the first few pages of this thread, and see my opinion on the matter.

Also, in the event you cared, I posted it since I was reading the Battle of Endor analysis thread on PSW in SD.net

It was the Imperial *army* that lost the ground battle at Endor by being surprised and heavily outnumbered by the Ewoks. And even then the ROTJ Novelization notes that the Stormies were winning until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST.

The fleet displayed no incompetence what so ever, except following the Emperor's orders to try and keep them from escaping. And following orders can hardly be counted as incompetent.

That was not the Imperial Army's only problems with the ground battle, but ignoring that. The Navy (which has displayed incompetence before) made several really stupid decisions. They sent thier TIE fighters into the fight first, and the rapid loss of them did not allow them to properly coordinate fighter attacks with capitol ships later in the battle as the Rebel fleet did. Exactly why the Executor was manuevering so close to the Death Star is also a bit odd. Further, given the massive odds in favor of the Imperial Fleet at Endor (which contains at least the Death's Head Squadron, along with several other elements and the radioplay states the local sector fleet), they must have missed far too many opportunities.

An ISD can slag the surface of a planet in a few hours.

A Sovereign Starship can't.

ISD for teh win!

In real life a Fighter jet can destroy a Bomber, even though the Bomber is carrying much more destructive power.

In real life a Fighter jet can destroy a Bomber, even though the Bomber is carrying much more destructive power.

Your analogy is flawed. ISDs and SCSs are capital warships. It would be more akin to pitting a large coast guard vessel against a modernized battleship, except that this BB carries fighters too.

Edit: In terms of available firepower of course, and that's being generous to the Trek side.

That was not the Imperial Army's only problems with the ground battle, but ignoring that. The Navy (which has displayed incompetence before) made several really stupid decisions. They sent thier TIE fighters into the fight first, and the rapid loss of them did not allow them to properly coordinate fighter attacks with capitol ships later in the battle as the Rebel fleet did. Exactly why the Executor was manuevering so close to the Death Star is also a bit odd. Further, given the massive odds in favor of the Imperial Fleet at Endor (which contains at least the Death's Head Squadron, along with several other elements and the radioplay states the local sector fleet), they must have missed far too many opportunities.

If you will watch the movie, you will notice that Admiral Piet on board the Excecutor orders his fleet of Star Destroyers to engage the rebels only with fighters and just to keep them from escaping. He also says "I have my orders from Lord Vader himself. Vader doubtless passed these orders on from the Emperor, who wanted the space battle to drag on so he could play with Luke's emotions and bring him over to the dark side. That's why so many Star Destroyers were destroyed or damaged. By the time Admiral Piet realized he needed to countermand Vader's order, it was too late.

And if you're going to say he should have changed the plan before, look at what happened to people who disobeyed or displeased Vader.

Admiral Ozzel was killed for bringing the fleet out of hyperspace too close to the Hoth system.

Captain Needa was killed for losing track of the Falcon in the asteroid field.

Both of those were simply incompetence, imagine if Piet had changed the orders and smashed the rebel fleet, but Luke had not turned because he wanted revenge for his dead friends and maybe killed Darth Vader. The Emperor would have easily killed Luke and then excecuted Piet for disobeying orders.

That was not the Imperial Army's only problems with the ground battle, but ignoring that. The Navy (which has displayed incompetence before) made several really stupid decisions. They sent thier TIE fighters into the fight first, and the rapid loss of them did not allow them to properly coordinate fighter attacks with capitol ships later in the battle as the Rebel fleet did.

They were ordered by the Emperor to keep back and only form a perimeter. Otherwise, they would have been cooked by the DS II superlaser.

Exactly why the Executor was manuevering so close to the Death Star is also a bit odd.

They must have moved into a protective position around DS II after the shield went down.

Further, given the massive odds in favor of the Imperial Fleet at Endor (which contains at least the Death's Head Squadron, along with several other elements and the radioplay states the local sector fleet), they must have missed far too many opportunities.

Actually, the Rebels out numbered the Imps. The Emperor spread the fleet out in order to make a more tempting bait. The entire Rebel fleet went for DS II. The Imps only had enough to form a perimeter.

Unfortunatly, thats the kind of crap that happens when politicians take control of the military.

I vote Enterprise if it has the original crew...

Surely the fact that the Enterprise would have Montgomery Scott onboard must by itself count as a contigent of fighters...

I vote Enterprise if it has the original crew...

Surely the fact that the Enterprise would have Montgomery Scott onboard must by itself count as a contigent of fighters...

He would have to escape in one of the shuttles. He's impossible to kill, so the Imps would have to get him off before they could blow up the ship. But on the other hand.

SW:
Darth Vader: Make the jump to hyperspace.
Crewman #1789587403: Yes my Lord.

ST:
Kirk: Scotty give me phasers and bring us to Warp 2!
Scotty: We're givin' you all she's got sir, we just don't have the power!

He would have to escape in one of the shuttles. He's impossible to kill, so the Imps would have to get him off before they could blow up the ship. But on the other hand.

SW:
Darth Vader: Make the jump to hyperspace.
Crewman #1789587403: Yes my Lord.

ST:
Kirk: Scotty give me phasers and bring us to Warp 2!
Scotty: We're givin' you all she's got sir, we just don't have the power!

He's not a miracle worker you know....

Still would somehow manage to get the job done...rewire the engines to go hyperspace if needbe..

He's not a miracle worker you know....

Still would somehow manage to get the job done...rewire the engines to go hyperspace if needbe..

But it'd take him three days. ;)

But it'd take him three days. ;)

In other words he'd have it ready in two hours if the Captain asks...

In other words he'd have it ready in two hours if the Captain asks...

3 days or 2 hours, makes no difference when an ISD II is pounding you. It'd be over in 5 minutes.

While I have great respect and affection for the Imperial-II Star Destroyer (their entire lineage is my favourite in the SW universe), I don't really think it would win in a 1-on-1 confrontation. While it does have the size advantage, obviously, that same size reduces its sublight speed and manoeuverability. While its weapons are very powerful, to be certain, in the three original trilogy movies (and I've seen them all repeatedly) those weapons' accuracy and ability to track a moving target seem lacking. Don't ISD's weapons rely heavily on gunnery personnel operating them? Something that's moving-- even running-- in a straight line, they spray fire at it from multiple emplacements and still don't land every shot. And while I'm sure their shields are quite powerful, once those shields are breached everything's fair game. A few torpedoes at the solar fusion reactor which sticks out pretty conspicuously, or up into the hangar bays, would incur major if not fatal damage.

A sovereign-class starship, with it's nested layers of adaptable shielding that can interchange allowing a weakened shield to swap with and regenerate behind a fully powered shield, and with a skilled helmsman would be fast and evasive enough (since the sovereign's top-of-the-line sublight engines give it the agility of a ship a fraction of its size) that I think it would survive the ISD's attack, and by maintaining heavy fire (with computer co-ordinated targeting focusing on the most vulnerable parts of the Star Destroyer) would eventually punch through the shields. If they could create even one breach in the ISD's shielding they could start beaming armed torpedoes aboard and detonating them inside the Star Destroyer.

Also, Starfleet ships are more adaptable and resourceful than Imperial ships. In practically every ST episode they have to develop some new energy field or beam, or find a way to negate an enemy's advantage. As long as their evasive patterns could keep them alive long enough, they could probably find some vulnerability in the ISD's technology and exploit it.

Again, don't get me wrong, I love watching Star Destroyers do what they do. I've always been more a fan of the Imperial Navy than the rebel alliance. I've read plenty of fiction and 'technical' documentation from both SW and ST. And I think that-- while the whole debate is a bit silly-- if the Sovereign couldn't at least win the battle, it could force a draw by moving in close enough to the ISD that the uncontrolled matter and anti-matter reactions characteristic of a warp core breach would finish the Star Destroyer off. That kind of explosion would easily empart much more energy than a collision with an asteroid, and we saw that take out the command tower of an ISD in Empire Strikes Back. In the end, an ISD might pack a greater punch, but it has to deliver that force to the target, and I don't think her weapons could track a well-piloted Sovereign effectively enough.

The tie fighters would barely nip at the shields. People think that the Star destroyer wins as it is larger. Star Destroyers are at 900 m and the ENterprise is 700 m so size isn't that different. The Enterprise's runabouts would do more damage than the tie fighters since they can be armed with quantum torpedoes. THe Imperial CLass Star Destroyer is armed with lasers. Lasers are crap compared to phasers. They wouldn't begin to punch through the shields. The point on the A-wing still stands. The shield generator was knocked out easily. A few quantums would do the job and then 1 more would kill the ship easier than the A-wing did.

The Victory-class Star Destroyers were 900 meters, we are discussing the 1600 meter Imperial-class Star Destroyer. I shouls also point out that Star Destroyers primary amament are Turbolasers. The turbolaser fires a much more powerful blast than a regular laser, hence the name. The Star Destroyer's are also armed with very powerful Ion cannons that can be used to disable large capital ships. That and its complement if six TIE Fighter squadrons would give it an advantage over the Enterprise.

The reason the fighters were able to knock out the Super Star Destroyer's deflecter shield projectors is because the fighters were flying inside the primary shield as it was. The only way the Enterprise could get any damage off is if it too could fly into the shields. Granted the Enterprise would have shuttles that could perform this task, but from what I've seen, those shuttles aren't nearly as maneuverable as TIE Fighters, thus makeing then almost a non-factor so long as there are any fighters in the skies(or space) or and laser batteries on the Star Destroyer.


...damn, I hope I'm not reposting anything...

They were ordered by the Emperor to keep back and only form a perimeter. Otherwise, they would have been cooked by the DS II superlaser.

Nonetheless, they still sent thier entire fighter wing forward, all they had to do was create a perimeter, not attack the rebels. Just sit back, and pickoff the Alliance ships that tried to flee, which would be much easier to do if the fighters and cap ships were cooperating.

They must have moved into a protective position around DS II after the shield went down.

Even if they did, they should not be that close, since they are not allowing the DS's own turbolasers to target Rebel ships by being between it and the Alliance fleet. Though it is somewhat forgiveable.



Actually, the Rebels out numbered the Imps. The Emperor spread the fleet out in order to make a more tempting bait. The entire Rebel fleet went for DS II. The Imps only had enough to form a perimeter.

From shots of both fleets, it would appear the Imperial Fleet outnumbers the Alliance Fleet.Unless the novelization states the Imps are outnumbered, I do not believe it in the least. The Imperial Fleet at Endor was made up of Star Destroyers almost exclusively (since the local Sector Fleet is supposedly present, it is probably there were other ships there as well). Even if the Imperial Fleet was spread out, it could concentrate a small amount of power and still overwhelm the Alliance fleet. The Alliance Fleet is not large enough for major engagements, they know the Empire will crush them, so they don't engage in them. Endor is the exception because the DSII was simply too inviting, and the Imperial Fleet was not suposed to be there.

The reason the fighters were able to knock out the Super Star Destroyer's deflecter shield projectors is because the fighters were flying inside the primary shield as it was.

Actually, it was because the entire Alliance Fleet was concentrating its firepower on the Executor, leading to a loss of shields in several areas.

Actually, it was because the entire Alliance Fleet was concentrating its firepower on the Executor, leading to a loss of shields in several areas.

Yes, the fighters flew within the Executor's shields as part of that concentration of firepower.


That was the Empire's weakness more than once. It greatly underestimated the capabilities of small one-man fighter craft. The Star Destroyers were designed to tank it out with large capital ships.

If you will watch the movie, you will notice that Admiral Piet on board the Excecutor orders his fleet of Star Destroyers to engage the rebels only with fighters and just to keep them from escaping. He also says "I have my orders from Lord Vader himself. Vader doubtless passed these orders on from the Emperor, who wanted the space battle to drag on so he could play with Luke's emotions and bring him over to the dark side. That's why so many Star Destroyers were destroyed or damaged. By the time Admiral Piet realized he needed to countermand Vader's order, it was too late.

Piett never countermanded his order, captain Palleon was the one who finally ordered the Fleet to withdraw, before that the Imps were still just trying to keep the rebels trapped. Even if he was just following orders, there was no reason to send in fighters unsupported to attack the rebels, especially since thier only viable option is to retreat, it would be a much better idea to keep the fighters with the Fleet to prevent this.

Admiral Ozzel was killed for bringing the fleet out of hyperspace too close to the Hoth system.

Another show of the Navy's arrogance, coming out so close. THough I'm not saying Piett should've disobeyed Vader, just not do what he did on his own, which appears to be the fighter attack, or put the Executor so close to the DSII.

Both of those were simply incompetence, imagine if Piet had changed the orders and smashed the rebel fleet, but Luke had not turned because he wanted revenge for his dead friends and maybe killed Darth Vader. The Emperor would have easily killed Luke and then excecuted Piet for disobeying orders.

The Emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader, and he planned to do this by getting Luke in a high emotional situation, and forcing him to act (similar to how he got Vader). That is how the Sith operated, so he did want the Rebel Fleet destroyed, but certainly not by the Fleet attacking and wiping them out, he wanted it to take awhile, hence the superlaser attacks (which are much more extensive in the novelization). But again, I am not saying it was merely Vader's orders that showed the Fleets incompetence.

While I have great respect and affection for the Imperial-II Star Destroyer (their entire lineage is my favourite in the SW universe), I don't really think it would win in a 1-on-1 confrontation. While it does have the size advantage, obviously, that same size reduces its sublight speed and manoeuverability.

It has faster speed, and it's lack of manueverability is made up for by its extensive firing arcs, and its powerful fighter complement.

While its weapons are very powerful, to be certain, in the three original trilogy movies (and I've seen them all repeatedly) those weapons' accuracy and ability to track a moving target seem lacking.

ANH only showed the DSI's guns firing at small fighters, and it is stated that those weapons could not traverse fast enough. Because the DSI's weapons were designed to fight off a capitol ship attack, this is precisely why the Rebels only used fighters. ESB showed an ISD hitting the Falcon or missing by mere meters 90% of the time, and the Falcon is significantly smaller than the ISD. ROTJ does not entirely show a large amount of targeting of small ships, since it features a major space battle
The ISD's weapons rely heavily on gunnery personnel operating them? Something that's moving-- even running-- in a straight line, they spray fire at it from multiple emplacements and still don't land every shot.

As shown, the fire we have seen directed at fighters that missed was from guns meant to target capitol ships. The fire at the Falcon in ESB seems to contradict you.

And while I'm sure their shields are quite powerful, once those shields are breached everything's fair game. A few torpedoes at the solar fusion reactor which sticks out pretty conspicuously, or up into the hangar bays, would incur major if not fatal damage.

That is usually how it is with every ship, ST nacelles are in an incredibly vulnerable spot, and the ISD does carry extensive armor.

A sovereign-class starship, with it's nested layers of adaptable shielding that can interchange allowing a weakened shield to swap with and regenerate behind a fully powered shield, and with a skilled helmsman would be fast and evasive enough (since the sovereign's top-of-the-line sublight engines give it the agility of a ship a fraction of its size) that I think it would survive the ISD's attack, and by maintaining heavy fire (with computer co-ordinated targeting focusing on the most vulnerable parts of the Star Destroyer) would eventually punch through the shields. If they could create even one breach in the ISD's shielding they could start beaming armed torpedoes aboard and detonating them inside the Star Destroyer.

The problem is dodging the ISD's extensive guns, while being attack by the fighters. The Thrawn Trilogy indicated ISDs are capable of shifting power from other systems to reinforce failing shields, so it is not limited to the Enterprise. Further, the level of accuracy in ESB seem to indicate that ISD guns are not simply fired by live gunners, and if they are, then they are heavily aided by computers.


Also, Starfleet ships are more adaptable and resourceful than Imperial ships. In practically every ST episode they have to develop some new energy field or beam, or find a way to negate an enemy's advantage. As long as their evasive patterns could keep them alive long enough, they could probably find some vulnerability in the ISD's technology and exploit it.

So you're hoping for a deus ex machina.

Again, don't get me wrong, I love watching Star Destroyers do what they do. I've always been more a fan of the Imperial Navy than the rebel alliance. I've read plenty of fiction and 'technical' documentation from both SW and ST. And I think that-- while the whole debate is a bit silly-- if the Sovereign couldn't at least win the battle, it could force a draw by moving in close enough to the ISD that the uncontrolled matter and anti-matter reactions characteristic of a warp core breach would finish the Star Destroyer off. That kind of explosion would easily empart much more energy than a collision with an asteroid, and we saw that take out the command tower of an ISD in Empire Strikes Back. In the end, an ISD might pack a greater punch, but it has to deliver that force to the target, and I don't think her weapons could track a well-piloted Sovereign effectively enough.

Actually, the command tower is not destroyed, if you watch the scene again, IIRC after the debris begins to clear, we can still see the tower there.

While I have great respect and affection for the Imperial-II Star Destroyer (their entire lineage is my favourite in the SW universe), I don't really think it would win in a 1-on-1 confrontation. While it does have the size advantage, obviously, that same size reduces its sublight speed and manoeuverability. While its weapons are very powerful, to be certain, in the three original trilogy movies (and I've seen them all repeatedly) those weapons' accuracy and ability to track a moving target seem lacking.

Why does everyone focus on that one A-Wing? Didn't anyone else see that X-Wing that was within spitting distance of it? You know, the one that was cooked by the ISD's anti-fighter canons? That was the explosion that sent to A-Wing spinning out of control. Not to mention the numerous Rebel fighters we see getting blasted throughtout the whole damn battle.

Don't ISD's weapons rely heavily on gunnery personnel operating them?

Actually, they work in conjunctiopn with advanced targeting computers. They use redundancy as a back up.

Something that's moving-- even running-- in a straight line, they spray fire at it from multiple emplacements and still don't land every shot.

Lead the target. You basically take an educated guess as to where they are headed and fire. They should run into your shot.

And while I'm sure their shields are quite powerful, once those shields are breached everything's fair game.

Oh, is that all? Ya, just get past Ben and Rasheed Wallace and you can score all day off the Pistons.

A few torpedoes at the solar fusion reactor which sticks out pretty conspicuously, or up into the hangar bays, would incur major if not fatal damage.

Its not a Fed ship. they utilize armor and redundancy. Blast the main hangar bay and the bridge control panels won't explode.

A sovereign-class starship, with it's nested layers of adaptable shielding that can interchange allowing a weakened shield to swap with and regenerate behind a fully powered shield,

No, not at all. You don't even to knock down the one, big bubble like sheild to start doing physical damage to the hull.

and with a skilled helmsman

When was the last time we saw that?

would be fast and evasive enough (since the sovereign's top-of-the-line sublight engines give it the agility of a ship a fraction of its size)

Based on what?

that I think it would survive the ISD's attack, and by maintaining heavy fire

SD weaspons and sensors have much greater range. The Sovereign wouldn't get a chance to fire.

(with computer co-ordinated targeting focusing on the most vulnerable parts of the Star Destroyer)

Which are?

would eventually punch through the shields.

Not before they get reduced to slag.

If they could create even one breach in the ISD's shielding they could start beaming armed torpedoes aboard and detonating them inside the Star Destroyer.

If, if, if, if. Get past the shields, get past the armor, get past the sensor jamming, beam torpedos inside andother ship, something we've never seen beofre. Do this all before getting wiped out.

Also, Starfleet ships are more adaptable and resourceful than Imperial ships.

How is a ship adaptable?

In practically every ST episode they have to develop some new energy field or beam, or find a way to negate an enemy's advantage.

They have never done this without many hours to figure something out or going through some strange cloud. You think the Imps will allow either of those things.

As long as their evasive patterns could keep them alive long enough,

Too bad that wouldn't happen.

they could probably find some vulnerability in the ISD's technology and exploit it.

So, in other words, you have no idea how they would do it. You'd just toss it up and say "they'll think of something".

Again, don't get me wrong, I love watching Star Destroyers do what they do. I've always been more a fan of the Imperial Navy than the rebel alliance. I've read plenty of fiction and 'technical' documentation from both SW and ST. And I think that-- while the whole debate is a bit silly-- if the Sovereign couldn't at least win the battle, it could force a draw by moving in close enough to the ISD that the uncontrolled matter and anti-matter reactions characteristic of a warp core breach would finish the Star Destroyer off. That kind of explosion would easily empart much more energy than a collision with an asteroid, and we saw that take out the command tower of an ISD in Empire Strikes Back. In the end, an ISD might pack a greater punch, but it has to deliver that force to the target, and I don't think her weapons could track a well-piloted Sovereign effectively enough.


If if if if. there is nothing there that resembles a coherent argument. It is all ust wishful thinking.

Nonetheless, they still sent thier entire fighter wing forward, all they had to do was create a perimeter, not attack the rebels. Just sit back, and pickoff the Alliance ships that tried to flee, which would be much easier to do if the fighters and cap ships were cooperating.

Ya, thats what they were doing. A fighter's advantage is manuverability. holding them back would just make them "bullet catchers" for the ISDs.



Even if they did, they should not be that close, since they are not allowing the DS's own turbolasers to target Rebel ships by being between it and the Alliance fleet. Though it is somewhat forgiveable.

I don't think DS II's TLs were operational. Atleast, not at full capacity. Without the sheild, it was too vulnerable to just let it handle itself.

From shots of both fleets, it would appear the Imperial Fleet outnumbers the Alliance Fleet.Unless the novelization states the Imps are outnumbered, I do not believe it in the least.

Ya, they did make a mention.

The Imperial Fleet at Endor was made up of Star Destroyers almost exclusively (since the local Sector Fleet is supposedly present, it is probably there were other ships there as well). Even if the Imperial Fleet was spread out, it could concentrate a small amount of power and still overwhelm the Alliance fleet.

The Alliance would have a pretty good count on the fleet. The Emperor spread it out so the Rebels would believe the DS II was unguarded. They were to believe it was a secret project that relied solely on its sheild and local fleet.

The Alliance Fleet is not large enough for major engagements, they know the Empire will crush them, so they don't engage in them. Endor is the exception because the DSII was simply too inviting, and the Imperial Fleet was not suposed to be there.


and it wasn't there in full force. There were a significant number of ships, but they were still outnumbered.

Remember, the Emperor was counting on three big advantages:

1) He knew the attack was coming, that took out the Rebel element of surprise.

2) The sheild was supposed to be up because the Endor force was suposed to be stopped.

3) The Superlaser was operational, unbeknownst to the Rebels.

In order for the trap to work, the Imp fleet couldn't be there in numbers. The Rebel Alliance would have had a count and realized too many weren't showing up prior top the attack.

The real challenge would be if you put an Intrepid up against it. Far superior monouverablity(sp?). Laser would have no effect and proton torpedos would be neglijable. This all boils down to no matter how bad-ass the SD is, it's too out of date to be comparable to Trek technology.

It's like taking the most hardcore Trireme and leveling against a modern battleship.

The real challenge would be if you put an Intrepid up against it. Far superior monouverablity(sp?). Laser would have no effect and proton torpedos would be neglijable. This all boils down to no matter how bad-ass the SD is, it's too out of date to be comparable to Trek technology.

It's like taking the most hardcore Trireme and leveling against a modern battleship.


NOT LASERS!!!!! NOT FUCKING LASERS!!!!!! READ THE GODDAMNED THREAD, YOU IMPUDENT WRETCH!!!

And why do you think the ISD is out of date?

I don't think DS II's TLs were operational. Atleast, not at full capacity. Without the sheild, it was too vulnerable to just let it handle itself.

From what we see of the Falcon flying along the DSII, it seems to have a large number of its turbolasers operational.

Ya, they did make a mention.

Quote please? And even outnumbered, the Imperial Fleet is mainly comprised of ISD's, while the Alliances largest and most powerful ships (The Mon Cals) cannot stand toe-to-toe with one. It takes two to win against one ISD, and the Rebel Fleet was not mainly comprised of Mon Cals, and had only a handful, so even outnumbered, they still hold the advantage.

The Alliance would have a pretty good count on the fleet. The Emperor spread it out so the Rebels would believe the DS II was unguarded. They were to believe it was a secret project that relied solely on its sheild and local fleet.

Why would they have a pretty good count on the Fleet, they didn't even notice the Executor was there, Vader, or the Death Heads Squadron. Further, I find it hard to believe such a backwater system's local fleet would have so many ISDs. He did spread it out, but out of 25,000 Destroyers, he only needed about 40 to completely own the Rebel Fleet in open Battle, do you seriously think the Rebels could track them all?

and it wasn't there in full force. There were a significant number of ships, but they were still outnumbered.

The Imperial Fleet is never supposed to be anywhere in full force, that is why they have such giant and powerful ships, because the Empire can't be everywhere in force.

Remember, the Emperor was counting on three big advantages:

1) He knew the attack was coming, that took out the Rebel element of surprise.

And he know the Rebels would send the sizeable chunk of thier forces, so he needed enough ships to keep the Rebels contained and allow them to be picked apart. So he didn't just need enough to keep them there for a short while, or to even destroy them, but to keep them from even trying to breakthrough the Fleet into open space.

2) The sheild was supposed to be up because the Endor force was suposed to be stopped.

This still means he needs a sizeable number of ships to keep the Rebel Fleet from fleeing.

3) The Superlaser was operational, unbeknownst to the Rebels.

And he needs thier Fleet to sit there and get picked apart by it to turn Luke.

In order for the trap to work, the Imp fleet couldn't be there in numbers. The Rebel Alliance would have had a count and realized too many weren't showing up prior top the attack.

The Rebel Alliance would have had a count? They didn't know the Executor was there, they didn't know the best ships of the Fleet (Death's Head Squadron) was there, nor did they know the Empire's best troops were guarding the Shield, I think any Rebel Intel on what was going on at Endor can be considered void, the fact that he brought these easily tracked ships to Endor shows he really wasn't that concerned.

The real challenge would be if you put an Intrepid up against it. Far superior monouverablity(sp?). Laser would have no effect and proton torpedos would be neglijable. This all boils down to no matter how bad-ass the SD is, it's too out of date to be comparable to Trek technology.

It's like taking the most hardcore Trireme and leveling against a modern battleship.

Everything you have said has already been refuted. And since when was a trireme able to go from Hong Kong to New York in seconds, while it takes a battleship months. Out of date? For a Galaxy spanning civilization that has been going on for 25,000+ years, wouldn't you think the one that has been going 400 years is outdated.

\And since when was a trireme able to go from Hong Kong to New York in seconds, while it takes a battleship months.
What in God's name are you talking about? Are you high?!

NOT LASERS!!!!! NOT FUCKING LASERS!!!!!! READ THE GODDAMNED THREAD, YOU IMPUDENT WRETCH!!!

And why do you think the ISD is out of date?
The technology used in the SD is far behind that used in Intrepid.

....I know I have that quote from William Shatner on Saturday Night Live where he tells all the Trek geeks to get a life...it's around here somewhere...should be equally applicable to Star Wars...

From what we see of the Falcon flying along the DSII, it seems to have a large number of its turbolasers operational.

Could be. Like I said, maybe not full capacity. Maybe the Executer was just adding more cover to protect DS II after the sheilds went down.

Quote please?

Oi, I'm going to need time on that.

And even outnumbered, the Imperial Fleet is mainly comprised of ISD's, while the Alliances largest and most powerful ships (The Mon Cals) cannot stand toe-to-toe with one.

Actually, the MC-80s were bigger and more durable. I think the ISDs had more turbolasers and a bigger fighter compliment, but the MCs built them precisely to go head to head with the ISD.

It takes two to win against one ISD,

Based on what?

and the Rebel Fleet was not mainly comprised of Mon Cals, and had only a handful, so even outnumbered, they still hold the advantage.

Not really, You are short changing the MCs.



Why would they have a pretty good count on the Fleet,

Basic intelligence. They had a great deal of contacts within the military and were tracking the movements. Real life militaries do it all the time.

they didn't even notice the Executor was there, Vader, or the Death Heads Squadron.

Its not that they didn't notice, they may have accounted for them to be there. You figure at least one battle group would be there to protect it and it might as well be the one headed by the emperor's right hand man. Thats why the Rebels were going with their whole fleet. To be able to combat a handful of battle groups.

Further, I find it hard to believe such a backwater system's local fleet would have so many ISDs.

Like I said, they were counting on battle group, just not a big one.

He did spread it out, but out of 25,000 Destroyers, he only needed about 40 to completely own the Rebel Fleet in open Battle, do you seriously think the Rebels could track them all?

Why not? The Empire would have had to keep track of them somehow. The Allaince leadership was comprised mostly of Senators and Imperial military commanders that defected.



The Imperial Fleet is never supposed to be anywhere in full force, that is why they have such giant and powerful ships, because the Empire can't be everywhere in force.

Yes, but the fleet was spread out all over the galaxy. They weren't supposed to be able to engage the full Rebel fleet in any one place.



And he know the Rebels would send the sizeable chunk of thier forces, so he needed enough ships to keep the Rebels contained and allow them to be picked apart. So he didn't just need enough to keep them there for a short while, or to even destroy them, but to keep them from even trying to breakthrough the Fleet into open space.

Ya, but that didn't really require a great amount. It takes less to make a perimeter than to fiull an area. The Rebels put all their eggs in one basket, which means they weren't going to run. they had to either destroy the DS II or die trying. When Ackbar suggested turning tail, Calrissian reminded him it wasn't an option.



This still means he needs a sizeable number of ships to keep the Rebel Fleet from fleeing.

Still not more than the Rebel Fleet.

The Rebel Alliance would have had a count? They didn't know the Executor was there,

You can headfake one or two battle groups, but the rest would have been too far out to recall.

they didn't know the best ships of the Fleet (Death's Head Squadron) was there,

We don't know that.

nor did they know the Empire's best troops were guarding the Shield,

Its easier to sneak troops around than fleets.

I think any Rebel Intel on what was going on at Endor can be considered void, the fact that he brought these easily tracked ships to Endor shows he really wasn't that concerned.

I thin kthe Rebels knew they were nearby, they just were expecting to actually be in attack formation beofre the Imps showed up.

The technology used in the SD is far behind that used in Intrepid.


Liiiiiiike?

The hyperdrive that moves faster than anything we've seen in Trek? What about the stronger weapons, sensors and sheilding?

Liiiiiiike?

The hyperdrive that moves faster than anything we've seen in Trek? What about the stronger weapons, sensors and sheilding?
Quantum Warp Drive, Deep Space Sensors, Multi-phasic sheilding, bio-berual gel packs, AI cpu core, LCARs interface, variable warp feilds, etc.

Quantum Warp Drive,

Putting quantum in front of a word doesn't make it great. How fast does it go? They can't be that fast if it takes 70 years to traverse a single quadrent. Keep in mind, and ISD can traverse an entire galaxy in hours.

Deep Space Sensors,

Give me some stats.

Multi-phasic sheilding,

how much of a beating can they take?

bio-berual gel packs,

Which does what in ship to ship combat?

AI cpu core,

Again, what advantage is that in combat?

LCARs interface, variable warp feilds, etc.

Come on, giving me a bunch of technobabble isn't going to win you a damn thing. Give me some stats. show me why these are an advantage.

Just because Voyager was the new hotrod doesn't mean it can match the ISD.

Quantum Warp Drive,

That's so slow that it takes 70 years to cross galaxy while hyperdrive can do it hours.

Deep Space Sensors,

SW navicomputers calculate a clear hyperspace path by taking into account the entire galaxy.

Multi-phasic sheilding

That can be taken down by high kiloton firepower, compared to the ISDs shields that can withstand teraton level firepower.

bio-berual gel packs

You mean the ones that get sick and die?

AI cpu core

You mean the ones that routinely go crazy and try to take over the ship?

Oh, and have you ever seen a droid? They're fully sentient and don't take a huge ass computer core to run.

LCARs interface

Because touchscreens are so superior to buttons :rolleyes:

variable warp feilds, etc.


Wich still can't match the speed of hyperdrive.

That can be taken down by high kiloton firepower, compared to the ISDs shields that can withstand teraton level firepower.
I'm wondering where that teraton figure comes from. The shields of an SSD are said to be able to dissipate the power output of a medium sized star.
The tsar bomba, a real life 50MT device, reached a power output greater than 1% of that of the sun - a fairly average star. Only for a about 38 nanoseconds, but that's enough.
So even when an ISD's shields are as strong as an SSDs, it wouldn't be able to withstand more than about 100 such bombs hitting at once (perfect synchronization required...but considering the tech that is available that should be possible)

That's only 5GT for SSD shield strength then, if brought to bear at once.

I'm wondering where that teraton figure comes from. The shields of an SSD are said to be able to dissipate the power output of a medium sized star.
The tsar bomba, a real life 50MT device, reached a power output greater than 1% of that of the sun - a fairly average star. Only for a about 38 nanoseconds, but that's enough.
So even when an ISD's shields are as strong as an SSDs, it wouldn't be able to withstand more than about 100 such bombs hitting at once (perfect synchronization required...but considering the tech that is available that should be possible)

That's only 5GT for SSD shield strength then, if brought to bear at once.

SSD shields are on the order of 1e26 Watts. That's 23,809 teratons per second. An Acclamator troop transports shields are rated at 7e22 Watts, or ~16 teratons/second.

An ISD is more powerful than an Acclamator but less powerful than an SSD. Its shields are around 1e24 Watts, or 238 teratons/second.

The shields are also connected to heat sinks that can store at least and much more likely many times more energy than the shields insataneous dissipation capacity.

Thus the UFPs high kT low MT warheads would do jack squat against an ISD's shields.

SSD shields are on the order of 1e26 Watts. That's 23,809 teratons per second. An Acclamator troop transports shields are rated at 7e22 Watts, or ~16 teratons/second.I guess that's the relevant point - the whole "ton" measurement doesn't take into account the time in which the energy is released.

The tsar bomb released it within 38 nanoseconds.

The shields are also connected to heat sinks that can store at least and much more likely many times more energy than the shields insataneous dissipation capacity.
Heat sinks are a shield's dissipation capacity - shields by themselves don't dissipate anything, they just redirect the energy into the heat sinks.

Even if the heat sinks have a storage capacity, then this just means that they store energy for later release - that doesn't help if the shields fail to get the energy into these capacitors in first instance.
If anything this just shows that an SSD cannot maintain its shields for an indefinite amounth of time, as the actual heat sinks are unable to release the energy as fast as the shields can feed them under maximum strain - they need to buffer it for later release.


Thus the UFPs high kT low MT warheads would do jack squat against an ISD's shields.
I completely agee that an ISD would win against any UFP ship, but i don't think these scales are comparable - again, the energy release time factor

Could be. Like I said, maybe not full capacity. Maybe the Executer was just adding more cover to protect DS II after the sheilds went down.

It is possible.



Actually, the MC-80s were bigger and more durable. I think the ISDs had more turbolasers and a bigger fighter compliment, but the MCs built them precisely to go head to head with the ISD.

No, they were built to give the Rebels enough firepower to duke it out with many imperial ships, but not the top of the line ones. They are converted starcruisers, not actual warships. Why would the rebels build a large fleet capable of hitting SDs when there main goal is to hit and fade, since they know even if they can defeat one or two SDs, ten more will be there soon. The only Rebel Cruiser that matches the SD is Home One which is an oddity of Rebel Cruisers.

Based on what?

What has been the accepted SW way for awhile. I believe the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels states it, and the Thrawn Trilogy states that even with a Star Cruiser and Nebulon-B, it would be hard to take on a Star Destroyer (Dark Force Rising, the Battle for the Katana Fleet).

Not really, You are short changing the MCs.

The MCs have never been stated to duke it out with SDs one on one, just be able to hold thier own for some time. The only one that was meant to was either Home One or the MC90, which didn't exist at Endor. Let's look at the Stats. The stats are from http://hangarbay.tripod.com/td-mc80a.html, which also says that it will usually take more than one to take down an ISD.

Mon Cal Cruisers
1200 Meters
48 Turbolasers
20 Ion Batteries
6 Tractor Beams
6 Fighter Squadrons

Imperial Star Destroyer Mark I
1600 Meters
60 Turbolasers
60 Ion Cannons
10 Tractor Beams
6 Fighter Squadrons

Basic intelligence. They had a great deal of contacts within the military and were tracking the movements. Real life militaries do it all the time.

That doesn't mean that they have a count. The Germans didn't have a count on how many troops were in the First US Army Group (it didn't exist). Just because you are supposed to know something doesn't mean you do, and the fact that they didn't even notice the Empires best ships were there tends to lead to the belief thier entire Intelligence network was not very good pre-Endor.

Its not that they didn't notice, they may have accounted for them to be there. You figure at least one battle group would be there to protect it and it might as well be the one headed by the emperor's right hand man. Thats why the Rebels were going with their whole fleet. To be able to combat a handful of battle groups.

Except the DSII was supposed to be undefended, the Rebels are surprised by the appearence of the Imperial Fleet at Endor. No one makes mention of it missing when they arrive, and describe it as a trap when it reveals itself. This was before the Rebels knew the DSII was operational, so clearly the Imperial Fleet was a major threat.

Like I said, they were counting on battle group, just not a big one.

And it is not what they got.

Why not? The Empire would have had to keep track of them somehow. The Allaince leadership was comprised mostly of Senators and Imperial military commanders that defected.

That doesn't mean they know where it is at all times, but the fact that it was there and they didn't seem to notice, points to a gaping hole in thier intelligence. It is possible they expected the Executor to be there, since Han and Luke are not too surprised when they see it, but the other ISDs were certainly a nasty surprise.

Yes, but the fleet was spread out all over the galaxy. They weren't supposed to be able to engage the full Rebel fleet in any one place.

Except that Palpatine intended to solve that problem by giving them a target important enough to risk thier entire fleet. The Imperials were supposed to be able to engage the Rebels, the problem was they could never find them. The Empire is stupid, but not stupid enough to not bring a big enough fleet to complete his own plan.


Ya, but that didn't really require a great amount. It takes less to make a perimeter than to fiull an area. The Rebels put all their eggs in one basket, which means they weren't going to run. they had to either destroy the DS II or die trying. When Ackbar suggested turning tail, Calrissian reminded him it wasn't an option.

Except that the Imperial Fleet had to be able to keep the entire Rebel Fleet between it and the Death Star, which means it had to be big enough to discourage the Alliance from trying to break through it.

Still not more than the Rebel Fleet.

But of a far superior quality.

You can headfake one or two battle groups, but the rest would have been too far out to recall.

Given that the Rebel Fleet left Sullust and arrived at Endor in less than a day, it is entirely possible that the Imperials could've pulled major sector Fleets to Endor in the intervening time, they just didn't need to.

We don't know that.

Then why did they describe it as a trap for the Imperial ships to be there. And seem so surprised that there were "Imperial Ships in sector 12".

Its easier to sneak troops around than fleets.

Your best troops? Not to mention they were guarding the station the Rebels were attacking, if they had reliable intelligence, they should've noted what troops were stationed on Endor.

I thin kthe Rebels knew they were nearby, they just were expecting to actually be in attack formation beofre the Imps showed up.

They did not move to engage the Imperial Fleet, it seems what they wanted to do was destroy the DSII then run. They only attack the Fleet out of desperation, and Ackbar even says "We won't stand a chance against those Star Destroyers", Ackbar, the commander of the Alliance Fleet states this.

What in God's name are you talking about? Are you high?!

A Star Destroyer can traverse a Galaxy in a matter of days, it takes the fastest Fed ships almost a century to do the same. Still seem that out of date?

I guess that's the relevant point - the whole "ton" measurement doesn't take into account the time in which the energy is released.

That's because the energy is more important than the power.

The tsar bomb released it within 38 nanoseconds.

For a power of 5.5x10^24 Watts. Of which only half could be directed towards a target as it is omni-directional. That means 2.25x10^24 Watts.


Heat sinks are a shield's dissipation capacity - shields by themselves don't dissipate anything, they just redirect the energy into the heat sinks.

Shields are like a sink. The drain is the dissipation rate while the basin is heat sink. If the power influx is less or eqaul to the dissipation rate it doesn't fill the "sink". But if it exceeds it it will fill up the sink while the drain is still getting rid of it.

And since that "basin" can hold much more than the drain can remove it takes a long time to drop "overflow" the shields.

It happens to be that the "basin" can hold teratons of energy.

Even if the heat sinks have a storage capacity, then this just means that they store energy for later release - that doesn't help if the shields fail to get the energy into these capacitors in first instance.

See above.


If anything this just shows that an SSD cannot maintain its shields for an indefinite amounth of time, as the actual heat sinks are unable to release the energy as fast as the shields can feed them under maximum strain - they need to buffer it for later release.

Of course the shields don't last forever. No one said they did. ROTJ shows us that it takes the concentrated fire of a rebel fleet to drop their bridge shields.


I completely agee that an ISD would win against any UFP ship, but i don't think these scales are comparable - again, the energy release time factor

There is no way that a 50 MT weapon could harm an ISD. It simply isn't powerful enough.

For a power of 5.5x10^24 Watts. Of which only half could be directed towards a target as it is omni-directional. That means 2.25x10^24 Watts.Ok then...so it would take a total of 10GT worth of energy released in 38 nanoseconds to overload an SSD's shields, as its shields only get to deal with half of that - but still their capacity remains at 5GT per 38 ns

Shields are like a sink. The drain is the dissipation rate while the basin is heat sink. If the power influx is less or eqaul to the dissipation rate it doesn't fill the "sink". But if it exceeds it it will fill up the sink while the drain is still getting rid of it.

And since that "basin" can hold much more than the drain can remove it takes a long time to drop "overflow" the shields.

It happens to be that the "basin" can hold teratons of energy.You are reverting heat sinks and shields. The purpose of heat sinks, by definition , is to get rid of energy. If their purpose was to store energy for the shields to get rid of then they'd be called capacitors, not heat sinks. They may have a buffer, but they are not a storage device.
The shields "dissipate" the energy by transferring it into the heat sinks instead of letting it hit the hull, and then the heat sinks get rid of the energy.

The shield's dissipation capacity is its capacity of directing energy away from the hull. If it's exceeded, then the excess energy damages the hull.

Using your analogy, the heat sinks are the drain. Their buffer is the basin. The shield dissipation capacity is the speed at which you can fill the basin without getting wet yourself.
Having an empty basin doesn't help you if you try to pour a bucket of water into it all at once, you'll get splashed - even though the basin may be big enough to hold all the water if poured in carefully.

There is no way that a 50 MT weapon could harm an ISD. It simply isn't powerful enough.
Again, this depends on the timeframe in which then energy is released. If the energy is released faster than the shields can redirect it, then the rest will get through.

Ok then...so it would take a total of 10GT worth of energy released in 38 nanoseconds to overload an SSD's shields, as its shields only get to deal with half of that - but still their capacity remains at 5GT per 38 ns

5 GT is not enough to overload the shields, it simply isn't enough energy no matter how fast you deliver it.

You are reverting heat sinks and shields. The purpose of heat sinks, by definition , is to get rid of energy. If their purpose was to store energy for the shields to get rid of then they'd be called capacitors, not heat sinks. They may have a buffer, but they are not a storage device.

Heat sink, capacitor, buffer or whatever you want to call it that's what it does.

The shields "dissipate" the energy by transferring it into the heat sinks instead of letting it hit the hull, and then the heat sinks get rid of the energy.

The energy is actively radiated away as neutrinos. The heat sink stores the energy until it can be radiated away.

From here:http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/
http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/HeatSink.jpg

The shield's dissipation capacity is its capacity of directing energy away from the hull. If it's exceeded, then the excess energy damages the hull.

There is some bleed through. But that doesn't happen until the heat sinks are full or nearly full.


Again, this depends on the timeframe in which then energy is released. If the energy is released faster than the shields can redirect it, then the rest will get through.

50 MT is NOT enough to get through an ISD's shields.

Heat sink, capacitor, buffer or whatever you want to call it that's what it does.
It's actually quite relevant. Heat sinks do exactly what their name suggests.

The energy is actively radiated away as neutrinos. The heat sink stores the energy until it can be radiated away.

From here:http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/
http://www.mcc3d.com/swtech/HeatSink.jpg
That actually proves my point. It shows the heat sinks/active neutrino generatiors radiating away the energy, not the shields. It also explicitly states that the energy is shunted into the shield generator, and that the shield generator dissipates the energy. That's the shield's dissipation capacity, and it becomes relevant before there are the buffers in the heat sinks. If it's exceeded, then the excess energy gets through the shields. It doesn't get into the buffers then in first instance.

There is some bleed through. But that doesn't happen until the heat sinks are full or nearly full.
No, it happens wheneverr the shields redirection capacity is exceeded.

50 MT is NOT enough to get through an ISD's shields.
If for one day, every second, one gram sand falls on my head, it wouldn't kill me. But if it all falls in one time I'd be dead.

It's actually quite relevant. Heat sinks do exactly what their name suggests.

And they get rid of the energy by storing until the radiators can re-radiate it away as neutrinos.

That actually proves my point. It shows the heat sinks/active neutrino generatiors radiating away the energy, not the shields. It also explicitly states that the energy is shunted into the shield generator, and that the shield generator dissipates the energy. That's the shield's dissipation capacity, and it becomes relevant before there are the buffers in the heat sinks. If it's exceeded, then the excess energy gets through the shields.

The energy interacts with the shield, it is shunted into the generator, from there it goes into the heat sink/active radiator, it is then re-radiated away as neutrinos. Excess energy is stored in the heat sinks before it can be radiated away. With continual bombardment the heat sinks fill up and eventually the shields can't keep the energy from bleeding through.

It fits the facts that these ships can last under continual bombardment of gigaton-teraton weaponry for several minutes without their shields failing.


No, it happens wheneverr the shields redirection capacity is exceeded.

Which would be when the heat sinks are full.

If for one day, every second, one gram sand falls on my head, it wouldn't kill me. But if it all falls in one time I'd be dead.

Sure, but if the entire amount of sand was only 1 gram it would never kill you. That's like what 50 MT is like to an ISD.

The energy interacts with the shield, it is shunted into the generator, from there it goes into the heat sink/active radiator, it is then re-radiated away as neutrinos. Excess energy is stored in the heat sinks before it can be radiated away. With continual bombardment the heat sinks fill up and eventually the shields can't keep the energy from bleeding through.



Sorry, but that's not supported by the facts. The dissipation happens in the shield generator, it even explicitly states so:
"Ray shield generator dissipates harmful energy blasts"

That happens before the buffers become applicable, which soak up the heat generated in the shield generator. No room for debate there. The dissipated energy gets buffered and then slowly radiated away - the buffers are required because the radiation capacity is apparently lower than the shield dissipation capacity, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the buffers.

It fits the facts that these ships can last under continual bombardment of gigaton-teraton weaponry for several minutes without their shields failing.As does the way i explain it. As long as the shield dissipation capacity isn't exceeded as the energy isn't released fast enough such a ship can withstand a teraton bombardment. A teraton per second isn't a problem for an ISD, as long as it's released continuously over the duration of a second.
Only when the heat sink buffers are full the effective shield dissipation capacity drops to that of the radiation capacity, as the shield generator cannot get rid of more heat then anymore

Which would be when the heat sinks are full.
No, it happens at all times when the dissipation capacity is exceeded. The heat sink buffers being full just massively decreases this capacity, as the shield generators then cannot get rid of any more energy than the radiators radiate away at the same time then anymore.


Effectively there are two things which limit a ship's shield strength: The shield dissipation capacity which is the maximum power which it can withstand on the short term, until the heat sink buffers are full. If it's exceeded, energy gets through - even if the buffers are still empty. The shield simply cannot redirect then energy as fast as it arrives.
The second thing is the heat sink radiation capacity. As soon as the buffers are full this becomes the effective shield dissipation capacity as the shield generators cannot absorb more energy without overheating and blowing up.

Sure, but if the entire amount of sand was only 1 gram it would never kill you. That's like what 50 MT is like to an ISD.
At a sufficient speed it will be quite lethal.
People have been killed by pennies thrown fro high buildings.

It is possible.





No, they were built to give the Rebels enough firepower to duke it out with many imperial ships, but not the top of the line ones. They are converted starcruisers, not actual warships. Why would the rebels build a large fleet capable of hitting SDs when there main goal is to hit and fade,

Problem is, if an Interdictor shows up, the fade part of the plan goes to hell. You need a big ship to take on the ISD and the Interdictor.

since they know even if they can defeat one or two SDs, ten more will be there soon. The only Rebel Cruiser that matches the SD is Home One which is an oddity of Rebel Cruisers.

Home One was atleast 50% larger than an ISD. There was a slightly smaller class at Endor that may have been the same size as an ISD.



What has been the accepted SW way for awhile. I believe the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels states it,

EGs aren't canon. I'll look for the ICS to see what they say.

and the Thrawn Trilogy states that even with a Star Cruiser and Nebulon-B, it would be hard to take on a Star Destroyer (Dark Force Rising, the Battle for the Katana Fleet).

MC80s are bigger than Neb-Bs.



The MCs have never been stated to duke it out with SDs one on one, just be able to hold thier own for some time.

Like you said, incase more show up.

The only one that was meant to was either Home One or the MC90, which didn't exist at Endor. Let's look at the Stats. The stats are from http://hangarbay.tripod.com/td-mc80a.html, which also says that it will usually take more than one to take down an ISD.

While I'm sure he did a great deal of work to put that together, it isn't canon.


That doesn't mean that they have a count. The Germans didn't have a count on how many troops were in the First US Army Group (it didn't exist). Just because you are supposed to know something doesn't mean you do, and the fact that they didn't even notice the Empires best ships were there tends to lead to the belief thier entire Intelligence network was not very good pre-Endor.

Then why wasn't the Endor team suprised to see them when they arrived in the Tydirium?

Admitadly, the Emperor was manipulating the Rebel intel, but in subtle ways. Thats how that legion got onto Endore and why the battle groups were able to show up behind the Rebel fleet before they had all even finished leaving hyperspace.



Except the DSII was supposed to be undefended, the Rebels are surprised by the appearence of the Imperial Fleet at Endor. No one makes mention of it missing when they arrive, and describe it as a trap when it reveals itself. This was before the Rebels knew the DSII was operational, so clearly the Imperial Fleet was a major threat.

They realized it was a trap because the sheild was up and the Imps showed up in a tactically similar position. It was obvious the Rebel fleet was expected.

Remember, they knew the Tydirium would be transmitting their clearance code to a command ship.



That doesn't mean they know where it is at all times, but the fact that it was there and they didn't seem to notice, points to a gaping hole in thier intelligence. It is possible they expected the Executor to be there, since Han and Luke are not too surprised when they see it, but the other ISDs were certainly a nasty surprise.

Except, we've ever seen an SSD traveling alone. And once the sheild dropped, it would be expected that the Imps would scream bloody murder.



Except that Palpatine intended to solve that problem by giving them a target important enough to risk thier entire fleet. The Imperials were supposed to be able to engage the Rebels, the problem was they could never find them. The Empire is stupid, but not stupid enough to not bring a big enough fleet to complete his own plan.

More arrogant than stupid. But, if the Alliance wasn't expecting a lot of ISDs and an SSD, why send all those cap ships? Think about it.

The rebel fighters all had hyperdrives. The capships weren't capable of entering the superstructure of DS II.

The only reson to bring the MonCals and Neb-Bs would be to take on ISDs and cover the fighters while they did their thing.

Otherwise, you could just send the Millenium Falcon to lead a few squadrons of fighters to do the damage. At most, strip down a Neb-B for carrier duty and load the fighters onto it if you want faster hyperdrive.




Except that the Imperial Fleet had to be able to keep the entire Rebel Fleet between it and the Death Star, which means it had to be big enough to discourage the Alliance from trying to break through it.

That doesn't mean it was bigger. It was just large enough to form a perimeter.

They had to bug out after DS II blew, which means they figured the Rebels would take the rest out.



Then why did they describe it as a trap for the Imperial ships to be there. And seem so surprised that there were "Imperial Ships in sector 12".

Why was it a trap? Because the Imp ships showed up? Or because they were in Sector 12?

If you send in paratroopers to take out an enemy base, you expect there to be a defending force. However, you don't expect them lock and loaded at your LZ. thats essentially what the Imps did to the Rebel fleet.



Your best troops? Not to mention they were guarding the station the Rebels were attacking, if they had reliable intelligence, they should've noted what troops were stationed on Endor.

Its easier to move a small group of soldiers than fleets.

We can sneak the 101 Airborn into a place. Try doi g that with the Seventh Fleet.



They did not move to engage the Imperial Fleet,

Because the Imps already had superior position.

it seems what they wanted to do was destroy the DSII then run.

then why all the cap ships? They would be pretty useless unless they were expecting a pitched battle with Imperial forces. They brought the Medical Frigate after all.

They only attack the Fleet out of desperation, and Ackbar even says "We won't stand a chance against those Star Destroyers", Ackbar, the commander of the Alliance Fleet states this.

After the fleet had been hammered by DS II.

S
People have been killed by pennies thrown fro high buildings.

You need to watch mythbusters, they fired a penny at termical violecty onto themselves. The Wrost it did was cause a mild bruise.

Sorry, but that's not supported by the facts. The dissipation happens in the shield generator, it even explicitly states so:
"Ray shield generator dissipates harmful energy blasts"

That happens before the buffers become applicable, which soak up the heat generated in the shield generator. No room for debate there. The dissipated energy gets buffered and then slowly radiated away - the buffers are required because the radiation capacity is apparently lower than the shield dissipation capacity, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the buffers.

As does the way i explain it. As long as the shield dissipation capacity isn't exceeded as the energy isn't released fast enough such a ship can withstand a teraton bombardment. A teraton per second isn't a problem for an ISD, as long as it's released continuously over the duration of a second.

Only when the heat sink buffers are full the effective shield dissipation capacity drops to that of the radiation capacity, as the shield generator cannot get rid of more heat then anymore

No, it happens at all times when the dissipation capacity is exceeded. The heat sink buffers being full just massively decreases this capacity, as the shield generators then cannot get rid of any more energy than the radiators radiate away at the same time then anymore.

Effectively there are two things which limit a ship's shield strength: The shield dissipation capacity which is the maximum power which it can withstand on the short term, until the heat sink buffers are full. If it's exceeded, energy gets through - even if the buffers are still empty. The shield simply cannot redirect then energy as fast as it arrives.
The second thing is the heat sink radiation capacity. As soon as the buffers are full this becomes the effective shield dissipation capacity as the shield generators cannot absorb more energy without overheating and blowing up.

Very well I concede the point on the shields operation.

However, they do use torpedoes and missiles with shaped nuclear warheads. Those would detonate in a similar time and it takes many large yield missiles to take down the shields of an ISD. So I'm not sure how that would fit.




At a sufficient speed it will be quite lethal.
People have been killed by pennies thrown fro high buildings.

The terminal velocity of a penny is about 60 mph. At this velocity a penny is simply not massive enough to leave more than a nasty bruise.

I suggest you watch Mythbusters, great show that tests all of those urbal legends.

You need to watch mythbusters, they fired a penny at termical violecty onto themselves. The Wrost it did was cause a mild bruise.
Hmm..ok...albeit things like rotation and so on are relevant for sure too, it'll get a lot faster if it's stable rotating along a horizontal axis as the air resistance will be way lower than in case of a tumbling coin).

The main point i was trying to illustrate stands though - if it's fast enough, it can kill you. Even if it's very light.

However, they do use torpedoes and missiles with shaped nuclear warheads. Those would detonate in a similar time and it takes many large yield missiles to take down the shields of an ISD. So I'm not sure how that would fit.
It would take perfectly synchronous impact of several such missiles - a GT yield would have to hit the shields within the same few nanoseconds.

As long as each missile is less than a GT or takes respectively longer to release the energy (it's safe to assume that a GT nuke takes longer than a MT one) one such missile can hit an SSD every like 50 ns and still get fully dissipated - until the buffers are full, then the capacity drops.

Screw it.

Della Lu's starship from Marooned in Realtime vs. both an Imperial Star Destroyer and any given Star Trek ship.

Cons:
- Nuke-drive, sub-light propulsion only.
- Weapons limited to kinetic kill, laser, particle beams, and nukes.

Pros:
- Bobble generator.

Result: Win, for Della Lu. Both opponents bobbled for 60000 years, subsequently dropped into the nearest star. :D

Hmm..ok...albeit things like rotation and so on are relevant for sure too, it'll get a lot faster if it's stable rotating along a horizontal axis as the air resistance will be way lower than in case of a tumbling coin).
they fired it out of a specially made up gun so it fired at terminal velocity, and the target was a few feet below the barrel tip

Screw it.

Della Lu's starship from Marooned in Realtime vs. both an Imperial Star Destroyer and any given Star Trek ship.

Cons:
- Nuke-drive, sub-light propulsion only.
- Weapons limited to kinetic kill, laser, particle beams, and nukes.

Pros:
- Bobble generator.

Result: Win, for Della Lu. Both opponents bobbled for 60000 years, subsequently dropped into the nearest star. :D

If you're gonna take that approach, the Heart of Gold owns all other ships. It switches on the improablity drive and the other ships spontaneously turn into banana fruitcake.

they fired it out of a specially made up gun so it fired at terminal velocity, and the target was a few feet below the barrel tip Yes, but the speed was most likely that which would be expected of a tumbling penny, already including the full air resistance.

Without air resistance the speed of a penny that fell from a 200m high building would be ~140mph, not 60mph.

Without air resistance the speed of a penny that fell from a 200m high building would be ~140mph, not 60mph.
I may be wrong, but isn't air resistance a perma factor?

Its not possible for a penny to go beyond 60mph when it falls , watch mythbusters.

Its not possible for a penny to go beyond 60mph when it falls , watch mythbusters.

well, unless it was shot downward with some kind of gun.

well, unless it was shot downward with some kind of gun.
You know, thats exactly what they did.

As much as I like Star Trek, I think there are a few things they could do better. For one, everyone seems to be rather simplistic culturally. The Federation is a vaguely described democratic socialist utopia that the writers seem unwilling to explain further while all alien species have precisely one kind of alcoholic beverage (would you honestly describe all humans as drinking beer and nothing else?).

Yes, but the speed was most likely that which would be expected of a tumbling penny, already including the full air resistance.

Without air resistance the speed of a penny that fell from a 200m high building would be ~140mph, not 60mph.

I think, if there's no air resistance, a penny falling on your head is the least of your worries. :)

Star Destroyer, easy. Sure it has missplaced sheild generators, but it has six squadrons of fighters (thats 72 i think) so against that you can't really win

Star Destroyer, easy. Sure it has missplaced sheild generators, but it has six squadrons of fighters (thats 72 i think) so against that you can't really win


THOSE ARE SENSOR GLOBES!!!!!!

I may be wrong, but isn't air resistance a perma factor?
Yes, but it changes a lot depending on how the penny falls. The air resistance will be quite high when the penny tumbles, but when it spins around an axis vertical to its flat surface then this stabilization will reduce the air resistance. Especially if this axis also happens to be horizontal and the penny is falling with the edge towards the ground.

I think, if there's no air resistance, a penny falling on your head is the least of your worries.
True, but for the quick math that i did about it takign into account the air resistance would have been overkill. After all, my only goal was to show that the 60mph figure includes air resistance, and most likely that of a tumbling penny.

As much as I like Star Trek, I think there are a few things they could do better. For one, everyone seems to be rather simplistic culturally. The Federation is a vaguely described democratic socialist utopia that the writers seem unwilling to explain further while all alien species have precisely one kind of alcoholic beverage (would you honestly describe all humans as drinking beer and nothing else?).

That's something Star Wars doesn't miss out on. Theres all kinds of drinks, and R2-D2, a very expensive and highly specialized astromech mechanic droid was put to work serving drinks. :D

THOSE ARE SENSOR GLOBES!!!!!!


No they are not! If i shot one in both the X-wing alliance and Rogue Leader games, the shields drop to 50% and both the shields collapse!!

No they are not! If i shot one in both the X-wing alliance and Rogue Leader games, the shields drop to 50% and both the shields collapse!!

games are not considered canon.

If the ICS published by Lucas and researched and written on the freakin Skywalker Ranch say they are sensor globes, THEY ARE SENSOR GLOBES!

THOSE ARE SENSOR GLOBES!!!!!!

No they're not! They're the Star Destroyer's... uh... ahem. :D

No they're not! They're the Star Destroyer's... uh... ahem. :D

I think the Emperor was compensating for something. :D

games are not considered canon.

Game Stories are considered canon.

So for a KoTOR example:

Revan *did* go to the Star Forge at the end of Kotor, and he *did* fight Malak and eventually rescue Bastilla while the station was destroyed (light side ending, the 'official' one)

However, he probably didn't wade his way through hundreds of Dark Jedi and war droids to do it.

Game Stories are considered canon.

So for a KoTOR example:

Revan *did* go to the Star Forge at the end of Kotor, and he *did* fight Malak and eventually rescue Bastilla while the station was destroyed (light side ending, the 'official' one)

However, he probably didn't wade his way through hundreds of Dark Jedi and war droids to do it.

Right, the storylines are canon, but not the specs and stats wherein. In the Rogue Leader game, an alliance fleet did defeat an Imperial Fleet, but not by shooting the sensor domes.

Problem is, if an Interdictor shows up, the fade part of the plan goes to hell. You need a big ship to take on the ISD and the Interdictor.

And it is meant to take them on, but not defeat them, only hold its own for long enough to escape. The Rebels do not fight pitched battles, so they have little need for large high profile ships.


Home One was atleast 50% larger than an ISD. There was a slightly smaller class at Endor that may have been the same size as an ISD.

All specs I have ever seen show the Mon Cals being smaller than the ISD's, with the exception of Home One which is considered an oddity since it was the HQ ship, and no other of its type are ever seen on screen.


EGs aren't canon. I'll look for the ICS to see what they say.

Are you sure they are not. They are a book written in direct technical relation to the movies, and afaik, that makes them canon, only overriden by the Movies, radiodramas, novelizations of said movies, and ICS.


MC80s are bigger than Neb-Bs.

So? The Neb-B is still a pretty good ship in a spacefight (three of them are said to give an ISD troubles).



Like you said, incase more show up.

How does that refute what I said about MCs (until the MC90) not being able to defeat an ISD. They can't, I'd like to see a source that says they can.



While I'm sure he did a great deal of work to put that together, it isn't canon.

Its based on canon sources, and lacking my Essential Guide or an ICS of the Mon Cal, its the best I can do. So unless you can provide other canon that refutes it, it still stands.



Then why wasn't the Endor team suprised to see them when they arrived in the Tydirium?

Admitadly, the Emperor was manipulating the Rebel intel, but in subtle ways. Thats how that legion got onto Endore and why the battle groups were able to show up behind the Rebel fleet before they had all even finished leaving hyperspace.

Of course the Endor team wasn't surprised to see them in the Tydirium, it was the ship they were infiltrating in, I would imagine they would expect to be on it. And the Emperor wasn't just subtly altering it, he was practically leading it by the nose.


They realized it was a trap because the sheild was up and the Imps showed up in a tactically similar position. It was obvious the Rebel fleet was expected.

Remember, they knew the Tydirium would be transmitting their clearance code to a command ship.

All they knew was the were transmitting it to gain entrance to the Sector, since it was presumably guarded by something. There is no evidence they knew it was the Executor





Except, we've ever seen an SSD traveling alone. And once the sheild dropped, it would be expected that the Imps would scream bloody murder.

Which means they probably didn't expect it there then.





More arrogant than stupid. But, if the Alliance wasn't expecting a lot of ISDs and an SSD, why send all those cap ships? Think about it.

The rebel fighters all had hyperdrives. The capships weren't capable of entering the superstructure of DS II.

The only reson to bring the MonCals and Neb-Bs would be to take on ISDs and cover the fighters while they did their thing.

Otherwise, you could just send the Millenium Falcon to lead a few squadrons of fighters to do the damage. At most, strip down a Neb-B for carrier duty and load the fighters onto it if you want faster hyperdrive.

Because they did expect some capships to be there, just not as many as thier were. They know the Empire outnumbers and outpowers them almost everywhere, and since they are not a force meant to fight pitched battles, they needed all they could to defeat whatever the Emperor had defending himself and his new toy. I don't think they expected no one to be there.






That doesn't mean it was bigger. It was just large enough to form a perimeter.

They had to bug out after DS II blew, which means they figured the Rebels would take the rest out.

If you have a small perimeter then you should be able to escape into open space relatively easy by concentrating your force. The Imperials needed enough force to discourage the Rebel Fleet from doing so.





Why was it a trap? Because the Imp ships showed up? Or because they were in Sector 12?

If you send in paratroopers to take out an enemy base, you expect there to be a defending force. However, you don't expect them lock and loaded at your LZ. thats essentially what the Imps did to the Rebel fleet.

They never seemed to bother to locate any possible Imperial Fleet presence before they realized the DSII Shields were operational, which leads us to assume they expected to find any guarding ships directly in front of them, and not a large fleet.





Its easier to move a small group of soldiers than fleets.

We can sneak the 101 Airborn into a place. Try doi g that with the Seventh Fleet.

No it isn't, the 101st Airborne is incredibly hard to move anywhere without being seen, especially if they were our best troops. Further, there was heavy armor on Endor (The AT-AT seen). If we can't even hide the 101st, which is a lightly equipped division, do you think it is easy to move an Armored Division. Troops are no where near as easy to move about as you say.





then why all the cap ships? They would be pretty useless unless they were expecting a pitched battle with Imperial forces. They brought the Medical Frigate after all.

Because they obviously expected some ships to be there, and given that even a handful of SDs practically outguns every ship they have combined, why send just a squadron.



After the fleet had been hammered by DS II.

How hammered was it, the film shows only two Star Cruisers being destroyed, if the Rebel Fleet is either as large or as powerful as you say, why would that hurt them so bad. While it can be expected that several more were destroyed, I do not think it took the rebels that long to come up with a response after the Liberty was destroyed, so they didn't lose that many ships.

Game Stories are considered canon.

So for a KoTOR example:

Revan *did* go to the Star Forge at the end of Kotor, and he *did* fight Malak and eventually rescue Bastilla while the station was destroyed (light side ending, the 'official' one)

However, he probably didn't wade his way through hundreds of Dark Jedi and war droids to do it.

Technically only the game mechanics aren't canon. The strength of the force powers or blasters for example would be non-canon but the fact that he had to face waves of dark jedi and battle droids would be.

Technically only the game mechanics aren't canon. The strength of the force powers or blasters for example would be non-canon but the fact that he had to face waves of dark jedi and battle droids would be.

Revan was a SHE, dammit! MY game was the canon one, not yours! ;)

Revan was a SHE, dammit! MY game was the canon one, not yours! ;)
:D

Even though that was a joke, and a funny one at that, I'm inclined to say that even when played differently many times Reven is refered to as a he, which leads credence to the male Revan. :p

Star Destroyer wins hands down.

Reason:
The Star Destroyer is a war ship designed to suppress whole planets.
The Enterprise is a vessel of exploration that happens to have some guns.

While the Enterprise is pissing about firing off the occasional phaser shot the Star Destroyer is pounding the Enterprise's ass with enough blaster and proton torpedo fire to level a f*cking continent. That's not even including the Tie fighter squadrons.

When Star Fleet converts the enterprise into a 1200 meter, planet crushing, weapon-strewn, war machine then we might re-evaluate the situation.

Star Destroyer wins hands down.

Reason:
The Star Destroyer is a war ship designed to suppress whole planets.
The Enterprise is a vessel of exploration that happens to have some guns.

While the Enterprise is pissing about firing off the occasional phaser shot the Star Destroyer is pounding the Enterprise's ass with enough blaster and proton torpedo fire to level a f*cking continent. That's not even including the Tie fighter squadrons.

When Star Fleet converts the enterprise into a 1200 meter, planet crushing, weapon-strewn, war machine then we might re-evaluate the situation.

While I agree with your conclusion, the Enterprise E is not an exploration ship with some guns. It's much more of a warship than any its predecessor which was a an exploration/nursery/theatre with guns. While it certainly isn't a warship like the Defiant is, I think it has outgrown its predecessors abilities. It has design changes significantly affected by the looming Dominion threat and Borg threat.

:D

Even though that was a joke, and a funny one at that, I'm inclined to say that even when played differently many times Reven is refered to as a he, which leads credence to the male Revan. :p

Um... it was a typo in the scripting! Honest! :D

And I'm still sticking with my vote for Della Lu's spaceship. :)

Technically only the game mechanics aren't canon. The strength of the force powers or blasters for example would be non-canon but the fact that he had to face waves of dark jedi and battle droids would be.

Does this mean that the staggerly tough SD in Rogue Squadron 2 that was so intact after an uncontrolled descent to a planet's surface from orbit that it could still deploy it's AT-ATs and TIE fighters is a canon example of a Star Destroyer being FIGHT?

Does this mean that the staggerly tough SD in Rogue Squadron 2 that was so intact after an uncontrolled descent to a planet's surface from orbit that it could still deploy it's AT-ATs and TIE fighters is a canon example of a Star Destroyer being FIGHT?

That would be a game mechanic. The Star Forge example is used to show what Revan faced not the exact numbers.

go to www.ditl.rg and read their fan fic : its about the federation making contact with the star wars galaxy. The federation pwns the empire. :mp5: :sniper:

go to www.ditl.rg and read their fan fic : its about the federation making contact with the star wars galaxy. The federation pwns the empire. :mp5: :sniper:
not cannon but a good read nontheless :)

Who wins?
The USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-E or an Imperial class star destroyer?

I saw the Sovereign class vessel or Big-E in this case.

The star destroyers seem to have weak shields as fighters have little problems taking them ouy. YOu basically just hit the huge spheres atop the bridge. They also are armed with lasers. Lasers are encountered in Star Trek: Enterprise. They are treated as inferior weapons when put up against phasers in Star Trek.

Now lets look at a Sovereign class starship. They have heavy shielding that would have no problem with lasers. They also are armed with phasers, which would have no problem against the weak shields of a SD. In addition to that, they also would be able to penetrate the hulls. Quantum and photon torpedoes are also superior to any SD weapon, especially with the anti-matter photon torps have.

The one thing a SD has going for it is its bulk. It takes a lot of firepower to do much damage to the hull, that is if you are aiming for the hull. A single quantum torpedo to the bridge would likely destroy the ship as an A-wing colliding with the bridge destroyed the ship. Imagine what a spread of torpedoes or directed phaser fire would do.

Dear God, the stupidity...it burns!

1. You've obviously done little or no research on either universe. You're going for a style over substance approach to your argument, which itself is a fallacy.

2. Those spheres are sensor domes. Simple logic dictates that it'd be stupid for an Imperator to have its shield generators exposed when no other ship in that universe does, and this is backed up by the ITW: SW book, which is high enough on the canon scale that it's only overridden by movies or movie novelizations.

3. The AOTC ICS gives a firepower figure for the Acclamator transport. It lists a heavy turbolaser as having an output of 200 gigatons of energy per shot. Firepower estimates for ST put their weapons in the mid-megaton range, woefully outclassed. And I don't mean outclassed as in "they'll still put up a good fight", I mean outclassed as in Coast Guard cutters vs a carrier battle group. I'm going to rub it in here that is is also just a transport ship, not an actual fleet combat vessel, and an Imperator outguns it. Imperators are capable of reducing the entire crust of a planet to molten lava within hours.

4. You make the assumption that all lasers will have the same power output, and because the Enterprise wasn't afraid of the lasers that an outdated freighter was armed with, you assume that it can therefore stand up to the armament of a superior battleship. By your logic, because a laser pointer won't harm me, I can go stick my hand into the beam of an industrial cutting laser. I'll also point out that ion cannons themselves could destroy a Sovereign, since we all know that warp cores don't like it when they lose power to their containment fields.

5. Face it, an ISD is faster, tougher, and capable of dishing out far more firepower. It won't even need its fighters, a single hit from any one of its dorsal heavy turbolasers would be capable of ripping a Sovereign a new asshole.

go to www.ditl.rg and read their fan fic : its about the federation making contact with the star wars galaxy. The federation pwns the empire. :mp5: :sniper:

It's a good read, but most of the tech descisions are cop outs. Especially the Force not working on Star Trek people and ships because they're from a different galaxy. The Force is an energy field created by all life. Basicly, whenever a reference source suggested Star Wars would beat Star Trek, the writer decided they weren't going to accept that as canon.

It's a good read, but most of the tech descisions are cop outs. Especially the Force not working on Star Trek people and ships because they're from a different galaxy. The Force is an energy field created by all life. Basicly, whenever a reference source suggested Star Wars would beat Star Trek, the writer decided they weren't going to accept that as canon.

Actually, the NJO did a pretty good job of screwing up the Force is in all living beings thing. The Yuuzhan Vong were immune to it and its effects, and also were not detected through it. Of course, I have never actually read any of the NJO, and I think Traitor describes why this is, but I'm not sure.

go to www.ditl.rg and read their fan fic : its about the federation making contact with the star wars galaxy. The federation pwns the empire. :mp5: :sniper:


Ahh yes "Portals". The fan fic where shuttles can shrug off endless Death Star blasts because they're "immune to lasers".

If you want something better read "StarCrossed" by Stravo (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=4533).

I'd say the best fic would be conqest. Followed Closely by " Star Trek vs Star Wars, the Furry Conicrals "

Actually, the NJO did a pretty good job of screwing up the Force is in all living beings thing. The Yuuzhan Vong were immune to it and its effects, and also were not detected through it. Of course, I have never actually read any of the NJO, and I think Traitor describes why this is, but I'm not sure.

So you're suggesting that everything outside the Star Wars galaxy acts like an Ysalamiri?

go to www.ditl.rg and read their fan fic : its about the federation making contact with the star wars galaxy. The federation pwns the empire. :mp5: :sniper:

Even ignoring the fact that its reasons for the Feds winning are mind-numbingly stupid, it's so badly written that if it were printed on paper I wouldn't even use it to wipe my arse.

Even ignoring the fact that its reasons for the Feds winning are mind-numbingly stupid, it's so badly written that if it were printed on paper I wouldn't even use it to wipe my arse.
Strange, I had thesame feeling when reading through StarCrossed :rolleyes:

But if you can, please give reasons why SW would win (and good reasons, not like 'they have the Force, SSD's are 1600 meter and have 564321 multigazillion gigaton turbolasers'. Give facts from the movies.)

So you're suggesting that everything outside the Star Wars galaxy acts like an Ysalamiri?

No, I didn't even hint at that. I just said that not everything is part of the Force, as evidenced in the NJO Series (which I think an abomination).

But if you can, please give reasons why SW would win (and good reasons, not like 'they have the Force, SSD's are 1600 meter and have 564321 multigazillion gigaton turbolasers'. Give facts from the movies.)

SW has a much more vast industrial output than the Federation, adding that to the fact that they already have far more ships, means they outgun the Feds. SW ships can also travel many many times faster than thier Fed equivalents, allowing them to strike anywhere in almost an instant, or call for immediate reinforcement if one becomes smothered. I'm not even going to get into the fact that the Feds lack any sort of ground warfare force.

SW has a much more vast industrial output than the FederationSource?

adding that to the fact that they already have far more ships, means they outgun the Feds.source?

SW ships can also travel many many times faster than thier Fed equivalents, allowing them to strike anywhere in almost an instant, or call for immediate reinforcement if one becomes smothered.That's if we disregard Han's statement of the Millenium Falcon being the fastes ship woth a top speed of 1,5 times the speed of light. I'm willig to believe hyperdrive is faster than warp ([i]warp[i/], hyperdrive would equal transwarp but that's not Fed-tech).

I'm not even going to get into the fact that the Feds lack any sort of ground warfare force.I thought they were mentioned in DS( but I never saw that series). Besides, one ship can beam the SW ground force out in space.

Source?

The Hand of Thrawn duology. Palleon states that from a peak fleet of 25,000 Star Destroyers, the Imperial Fleet only has about 200 Star Destroyers left. Given that the Empire was only in existence for about two and a half decades, and managed to build not only this fleet, but a significant number of support ships, three Death Stars (the ROTS one does not match the dimensions of the original, therefore it must be a prototype, admittedly this is not my own argument), and an entire Army. Also, on a whim, the Republic constructed 200 Dreadnoughts (the most powerful ship they had), which were then lost, and it apparently did not hurt the Republic so bad that it collapsed.

source?

Hand of Thrawn Duology as well, the Star Destroyer Fleet at its peak is stated to be 25,000. While the Federation fields at most, 8,000 ships of all types (including small fighters).

That's if we disregard Han's statement of the Millenium Falcon being the fastes ship woth a top speed of 1,5 times the speed of light. I'm willig to believe hyperdrive is faster than warp ([i]warp[i/], hyperdrive would equal transwarp but that's not Fed-tech).

I thought at least you had been following the argument. Might you have noticed that Han's statement is not meant to mean 1.5 times the speed of light, but is a measuring system used to determine a Hyperdrives speed. Just like Warp 9 is not actually 9 times the speed of light, Hans statement cannot be taken at face value.

I thought they were mentioned in DS( but I never saw that series). Besides, one ship can beam the SW ground force out in space.

DS9 did not show any ground combat forces, just more Starfleet personell fighting on the ground. The Episode (The Siege of AR-558), also showed the glaring faults in Federation ground tactics, they lack any type of combined arms, or heavy weaponry, and also lack any armor. There was another episode before that that highlighted it even more. And iof ST ships can just beam enemies into space, it's questionable why they don't do it everytime they have to fight on a planet.

Now, of 33 pages of the same banter back and forth does anyone honestly think they can prove who would win the fight between two ships from two different universes with different sets of rules and canons (for those geeks who care)?

This thread should end with with a few established facts
-Enterprise != warship
-Star Destroyer has "Turbo" lasers, Enterprise has "phasers"
-Star Destroyer has a bunch of guns and a bunch of ships
-Enterprise flies at "warp speed", Star Destroyer can go to "hyperspace"
-Empire = warring nation, Federation = relatively peaceful explorers


OK, there we go.

The Hand of Thrawn duology. Palleon states that from a peak fleet of 25,000 Star Destroyers, the Imperial Fleet only has about 200 Star Destroyers left. Given that the Empire was only in existence for about two and a half decades, and managed to build not only this fleet, but a significant number of support ships, three Death Stars (the ROTS one does not match the dimensions of the original, therefore it must be a prototype, admittedly this is not my own argument), and an entire Army. Also, on a whim, the Republic constructed 200 Dreadnoughts (the most powerful ship they had), which were then lost, and it apparently did not hurt the Republic so bad that it collapsed.Books are not canon, but I accept the fleet numbers.


Hand of Thrawn Duology as well, the Star Destroyer Fleet at its peak is stated to be 25,000. While the Federation fields at most, 8,000 ships of all types (including small fighters).Books again, but they seem acceptable to me. I've read the Fed number for 8000 ships on DITL (although I can't remember 8000 ships total or 8000 capitol ships).


I thought at least you had been following the argument. Might you have noticed that Han's statement is not meant to mean 1.5 times the speed of light, but is a measuring system used to determine a Hyperdrives speed. Just like Warp 9 is not actually 9 times the speed of light, Hans statement cannot be taken at face value.Yes, I followed your argument and accept it. However, I do believe Han actually said 1,5 times the speed of light, that would be such a low speed that it cannot be correct (just like Paris said in one of Voyager's episodes that it's impossible to turn at warp).
edit: We were saying that SW is faster at FTL travel but in combat that doesn't matter much as that would take place at sub-light speeds. At those speeds better manouverability is needed and I think ST has the advantage there with Ent-E vs. a SSD. (presuming the fighters on both sides are equal)

not show any ground combat forces, just more Starfleet personell fighting on the ground. The Episode (The Siege of AR-558), also showed the glaring faults in Federation ground tactics, they lack any type of combined arms, or heavy weaponry, and also lack any armor. There was another episode before that that highlighted it even more. And iof ST ships can just beam enemies into space, it's questionable why they don't do it everytime they have to fight on a planet.The lack of armor is stupidity on Starfleets part. And for the 'why-not-beam-your-enemies-in-space?', all other major powers in ST can do thesame (It does explain the lack of groundforces :p ).


Pantless hero: your point?

Books are not canon, but I accept the fleet numbers.

SW books are canon, albeit one of the lowest levels, but they are canon.


Books again, but they seem acceptable to me. I've read the Fed number for 8000 ships on DITL (although I can't remember 8000 ships total or 8000 capitol ships).

That is where I got the 8,000 number from.


Yes, I followed your argument and accept it. However, I do believe Han actually said 1,5 times the speed of light, that would be such a low speed that it cannot be correct (just like Paris said in one of Voyager's episodes that it's impossible to turn at warp).
edit: We were saying that SW is faster at FTL travel but in combat that doesn't matter much as that would take place at sub-light speeds. At those speeds better manouverability is needed and I think ST has the advantage there with Ent-E vs. a SSD. (presuming the fighters on both sides are equal)

He actually says ".5 past lightspeed".

The lack of armor is stupidity on Starfleets part. And for the 'why-not-beam-your-enemies-in-space?', all other major powers in ST can do thesame (It does explain the lack of groundforces :p ).

So why didn't they? When the Defiant came to AR-558, there were no enemy ships in the vicinity of the planet, so why didn't they beam the Jem'hadar into Space.

SW books are canon, albeit one of the lowest levels, but they are canon.The only canon SW books are canon are the novelisations of the movies. And you only have canon and non-canon, not 'less-canon'.

That is where I got the 8,000 number from.Okay.

He actually says ".5 past lightspeed".Accepted, we can further ignore this then.

So why didn't they? When the Defiant came to AR-558, there were no enemy ships in the vicinity of the planet, so why didn't they beam the Jem'hadar into Space.That's something you should ask the writers (although it is barbaric and the Federation wouldn't do it because of that).

The only canon SW books are canon are the novelisations of the movies. And you only have canon and non-canon, not 'less-canon'.

No, according to Lucasfilm, any books authorized by them are canon, read the first 5 pages of the thread, we covered this. Unlike Paramount, which holds that only what is seen on tv is canon. There are different levels of SW canon. G-level is films, novelizations, radioplays, and technical manuals (ICS, though this might not be G, I'm not sure), C-level is authorized novels (Like Hand of Thrawn) and game plotlines not related to game mechanics.


That's something you should ask the writers (although it is barbaric and the Federation wouldn't do it because of that).

Well, if we're going to ask the writers, then it would because that would ruin the story. Besides, ST transporters do have a certain number of troops they cannot transport at once, by the time they got started the ship would probably be under attack, and need to raise it's shields, meaning it can't transport. SW also has ground based weapons to target starships, meaning the ship would have to get pretty lucky.

SW has a much more vast industrial output than the Federation
Source?

That they can half-complete a moon-sized battle station in under a year?

I thought they were mentioned in DS( but I never saw that series). Besides, one ship can beam the SW ground force out in space.

Transporters are affected by shields [and the SW universe has theatre shields, see Hoth] and so many other things that that's in no way a reliable plan.

No, according to Lucasfilm, any books authorized by them are canon, read the first 5 pages of the thread, we covered this. Unlike Paramount, which holds that only what is seen on tv is canon. There are different levels of SW canon. G-level is films, novelizations, radioplays, and technical manuals (ICS, though this might not be G, I'm not sure), C-level is authorized novels (Like Hand of Thrawn) and game plotlines not related to game mechanics. Okay, I won't argue with that.


Well, if we're going to ask the writers, then it would because that would ruin the story. Besides, ST transporters do have a certain number of troops they cannot transport at once, by the time they got started the ship would probably be under attack, and need to raise it's shields, meaning it can't transport. SW also has ground based weapons to target starships, meaning the ship would have to get pretty lucky.That's one possible explanation of why they don't use transporters to beam the enemy into space. A second one is/are ground based weapons that can shoot at starships (yes, ST has them too).


That they can half-complete a moon-sized battle station in under a year?Using just how much of the industrial output, 10, 25 or 90%? The empire must have a great industrial output, no doubt about that, but do we know how much it is?


Transporters are affected by shields [and the SW universe has theatre shields, see Hoth] and so many other things that that's in no way a reliable plan.Correct, another reason why the Feds don't beam enemies into space. [the theatre shields didn't block battle droids in TPM, so I doubt they are really that usefull.]

Correct, another reason why the Feds don't beam enemies into space. [the theatre shields didn't block battle droids in TPM, so I doubt they are really that usefull.]

On the contrary, theatre energy shields are useful. Theoretically, they allow you to fire out while preventing outside fire from coming in. This gives an added protection for emplaced defences to do damage to incoming forces before they get within the shield.

The idea after all, is to destroy the invading force while under the protection of your shield before they can breach it. It helps cut down on casualties against long range and space based artillery as well.

Now, of 33 pages of the same banter back and forth does anyone honestly think they can prove who would win the fight between two ships from two different universes with different sets of rules and canons (for those geeks who care)?

Well, I think there's only one thing for it.

We're just going to have to build them both and see.

Okay, I won't argue with that.

Good.


That's one possible explanation of why they don't use transporters to beam the enemy into space. A second one is/are ground based weapons that can shoot at starships (yes, ST has them too).

Where have we seen these ground-to-space weapons in ST?


Using just how much of the industrial output, 10, 25 or 90%? The empire must have a great industrial output, no doubt about that, but do we know how much it is?

They built in secret using only a single shipping company (Black Sun) to move all of the raw materials. The DS2 went from raw materials to a 900km diameter battle station in at most 2 years and far more likely 6 months.


Correct, another reason why the Feds don't beam enemies into space. [the theatre shields didn't block battle droids in TPM, so I doubt they are really that usefull.]

SW shields have shown to be permeable to slow moving small objects. They're still useful for blocking artillery.

On the contrary, theatre energy shields are useful. Theoretically, they allow you to fire out while preventing outside fire from coming in. This gives an added protection for emplaced defences to do damage to incoming forces before they get within the shield.

The idea after all, is to destroy the invading force while under the protection of your shield before they can breach it. It helps cut down on casualties against long range and space based artillery as well.Practically, you can just walk inside them, that works even better if you have thesame kind of shield yourself. Imagine a kamikaze droid packed with explosives that has shields and then walks through your shield.



Where have we seen these ground-to-space weapons in ST?ENT featured an episode with a cannon on Mars that was designed to shoot asteroids (I haven't seen the episode itself, so I don't know the exact details).


They built in secret using only a single shipping company (Black Sun) to move all of the raw materials. The DS2 went from raw materials to a 900km diameter battle station in at most 2 years and far more likely 6 months.And how much of the industrial capacity? (Yes, I know that it is almost impossible to answer)


SW shields have shown to be permeable to slow moving small objects. They're still useful for blocking artillery.Then I'll just send in suicide-drones.

I thought they were mentioned in DS( but I never saw that series). Besides, one ship can beam the SW ground force out in space.ST has no Ground force, that is the one thing Gene Roddenberry explicitly states, no Ground Force. so all the ground battles are fought by Security, aka police.

and for ST to 'beam' SW ground forces, means they need to lower their sheilds, and with an ISD and her fighters around, I really cannot see any Fed ship lowering their shields to use their transporters.

ENT featured an episode with a cannon on Mars that was designed to shoot asteroids (I haven't seen the episode itself, so I don't know the exact details).

Was it orbital or ground based?


And how much of the industrial capacity? (Yes, I know that it is almost impossible to answer)

They built in secret. It can't have been much of the Empire's industrial capacity or it would have been noticed. And since there are no shipyards at Endor it was constructed by completley mobile methods from raw material to fishished product. The UFP's total industrial capacity could not do the same.


Then I'll just send in suicide-drones.

Which will be shot before they can enter the shield.

ST has no Ground force, that is the one thing Gene Roddenberry explicitly states, no Ground Force. so all the ground battles are fought by Security, aka police.

and for ST to 'beam' SW ground forces, means they need to lower their sheilds, and with an ISD and her fighters around, I really cannot see any Fed ship lowering their shields to use their transporters.
1) Didn't know that, have a link?
2) They don't have to lower all of their shields, only the one directed towards the planet (see First Contact when the Defiant survivors are beamed aboard, I doubt they'd lower all of their shields in front of a Borg cube).

Was it orbital or ground based?Ground based, I searched for it on DITL and found this:

http://www.ditl.org/gptz/GVerteronArray5.jpg the array firing
http://www.ditl.org/gptz/GVerteronArray6.jpg the weapon hitting the moon

(www.ditl.org, Sci-Tech, Verteron Array)

They built in secret. It can't have been much of the Empire's industrial capacity or it would have been noticed. And since there are no shipyards at Endor it was constructed by completley mobile methods from raw material to fishished product. The UFP's total industrial capacity could not do the same.We have never seen the UFP building something like the DS so we don't know what they can and cannot make.


Which will be shot before they can enter the shield.The drones can be equipped with shields too.

[the theatre shields didn't block battle droids in TPM, so I doubt they are really that usefull.]

But there's around a 25 year gap between TPM and ROTJ, so who really knows how shield tech has progressed? The Empire invested heavily in military technologies, after all...

2) They don't have to lower all of their shields, only the one directed towards the planet (see First Contact when the Defiant survivors are beamed aboard, I doubt they'd lower all of their shields in front of a Borg cube).

They still need to lower the sheilds. The fighter compliment aboard the ISD will then have open shots the the Enterprise.

If the ISD doesn't flat out pulverize the E-E sheilds first.

Or doesn't jam the sensors and transporter.

Ground based, I searched for it on DITL and found this:

http://www.ditl.org/gptz/GVerteronArray5.jpg the array firing
http://www.ditl.org/gptz/GVerteronArray6.jpg the weapon hitting the moon

(www.ditl.org, Sci-Tech, Verteron Array)

Need to see the episode before I can talk about that.

We have never seen the UFP building something like the DS so we don't know what they can and cannot make.

Actually, until we see them produce anything close to a Death Star, we can assume they can't do it. Even in the midst of their two biggest wars (the Cardassian War and the Dominion War), they should no inclination of doing anything like that.


The drones can be equipped with shields too.

And? Can't make them too powerful or it becomes a waste. How many do you think one Sovereign would be able to launch? They have to get past TIE Fighters and anti-fighter guns. And, of course, the shields.

1) Didn't know that, have a link?Looking, but the story is that back in the late 80's, a RPG company named FASA (battletech, Star Fleet Battles...) had the licence to produce the Star Trek Games. they started branching off, offering ship designs and races not canon to the ST universe. One of the aspects that FASA created and caught on in the gaming world was the "Federation Marines", Groundforces for the UFPS. Gene Roddenberry took exception to that as well as many other changes that were being wrought upon his creation and Fasa lost the licence a couple of years later. the Marines being one of the reasons why. In Gene's world vision, the Federation never needed ground troops or even fighter craft. thus the only "Military Branch" to survive was the Navy which could easily adapt to the "Exploration" that Gene Roddenberry wanted to emphasise.

That's why it's always security that goes down... Even if it's a war, it's security that goes and no real troops. The "Barbaric" Klingons had shock troopers and the Romulans had Raiders but the Federation relied on Security.

This was way back in the mid/late 80's so I'm having a hard time finding the link. Bear with me.


2) They don't have to lower all of their shields, only the one directed towards the planet (see First Contact when the Defiant survivors are beamed aboard, I doubt they'd lower all of their shields in front of a Borg cube).If I remember right, the Enterprise E took some good hits while beaming the Defiant survivors aboard... but I'm going by memory here.

an earlier post mentioned the capts of Enterprise... well what if Darth was on an SD, He could probably make a very large and destructive difference...

*Force chokes Scotty*