NationStates Jolt Archive

The Europe we all know and love will be gone before the end of this century, it will be populated mostly by middle easterners and africans.
This is the original posters point alot of people seem to have missed, yes there will be people in Europe, no they wont be european, and living in Europe doesnt make them that either.


Heavens help us all if europe is inundated by blow ins from the middle east and africa, the celts didn't come from the middle east to have that happen.

Look guys it looks like at some point or other everyone's family came from Africa, our peoples and cultures are all immigrants.

Which part of Europe that you particularly liked anyhow?
Was it the centuries of warring,
the catholics crushing heretics
followed
by the protestants crushing catholics
Greece under the generals?
Germany under Hitler?
etc etc blah de blah de blah

What exactly is it that is changed by immigration that is a major loss?
Is it just the increase in proportion of darker skinned people living in Europe?
Is that what really upsets you?

Europe has always been dyed, on most of the world maps that I've seen Europe is separated from Asia and the Middle East with a border and is filled with usually green or tanish gray color... I suggest that we pass a UN law requiring all future map maker to use only one color to represent Europe... For clarity and uniformity in class-room and political maps.

Asia should be Blue
Africa should be Dark Olive Green
Australia should be Wheat
South America should be Pale Green
North America should be Dark Red
Antarctica should be White
And Europe should be Magenta

:p

Europe has always been dyed, on most of the world maps that I've seen Europe is separated from Asia and the Middle East with a border and is filled with usually green or tanish gray color... I suggest that we pass a UN law requiring all future map maker to use only one color to represent Europe... For clarity and uniformity in class-room and political maps.

Asia should be Blue
Africa should be Dark Olive Green
Australia should be Wheat
South America should be Pale Green
North America should be Dark Red
Antarctica should be White
And Europe should be Magenta

:p

no no no no..Europe should be navy blue, Asia should be cyan or magenta

Europeans can do what they like. I'm not European, I'm English.

Who's for making Great Britain a continent in it's own right?

no no no no..Europe should be navy blue, Asia should be cyan or magenta

Seconded, Magenta is an awful colour

Europeans can do what they like. I'm not European, I'm English.

Who's for making Great Britain a continent in it's own right?

You cant just make it a continent

Seconded, Magenta is an awful colour

the "I"s have had itmagenta shall nbot bew the representetive country of Europe or peoples their in

Europeans can do what they like. I'm not European, I'm English.

Who's for making Great Britain a continent in it's own right?

Sure. And while we're at it, why not make Corsica an continent? Or Spitzbergen?

Europeans can do what they like. I'm not European, I'm English.

Who's for making Great Britain a continent in it's own right?

Sounds like something i would do....hmm..not a bad idea..bring back british imperialism while were at it..yes..yes!
by the way your name suggests that you and i are going to get on famously

You cant just make it a continent

Why can't we? The British can do anything if they put their minds to it.

Let's stick a large motor to the Outer Hebrides and head off to the equator.

Why can't we? The British can do anything if they put their minds to it.

Let's stick a large motor to the Outer Hebrides and head off to the equator.

...that would get rid of our brilliant weather

Sounds like something i would do....hmm..not a bad idea..bring back british imperialism while were at it..yes..yes!
by the way your name suggests that you and i are going to get on famously

Who disagrees that the world was a better place when Britain ran it?

And Foreign Johnnies can't vote.

Who disagrees that the world was a better place when Britain ran it?


Last time you tried, it wasn't an overall success, now, was it?

What exactly is it that is changed by immigration that is a major loss?
Is it just the increase in proportion of darker skinned people living in Europe?
Is that what really upsets you?

That's all I can come up with also? I think he has some far-fetched idea that different skin colour means different culture also,

I'm tanning at the moment just naturally but I'm a definite ten shades darker than my pasty faced self in winter- should I be worried that I may experience increased levels of cultural change? I was wondering why I was binding my feet like a 19th century Chinese woman and foraging for honey ants in native aboriginal manner ;)

Who disagrees that the world was a better place when Britain ran it?

And Foreign Johnnies can't vote.

as an upper class imperialist..i dont...i wouldnt mind owning a little place in africa...

Last time you tried, it wasn't an overall success, now, was it?

wasnt bad...we did our best and thats the main thing in my antiqueted opinion

"Let's stick a large motor to the Outer Hebrides and head off to the equator.



...that would get rid of our brilliant weather "



Fair point.

Let's brick up the Channel Tunnel.


(but not tell the French)

Fun as this is - I need to go back to work now.

E Blackadder, cheerio!

"Let's stick a large motor to the Outer Hebrides and head off to the equator.



...that would get rid of our brilliant weather "



Fair point.

Let's brick up the Channel Tunnel.


(but not tell the French)


yes..i can ee it now

train driver: Mon deu! ze tunnel..she is blocked!

Boom!
bye goes euro star.....then we just park HMS victory in dover and repel any froggy vessels entering..capital idea!

Fun as this is - I need to go back to work now.

E Blackadder, cheerio!

cheerio!
what a nice cahp..must be an oxford backer on the boats

Last time you tried, it wasn't an overall success, now, was it?

pah! Like to see you do any better.....

pah! Like to see you do any better.....

now now...none of that..dont upset the colonial-er i mean johnie foreigner- i mean...fellow...members of the world

pah! Like to see you do any better.....

Meh, the difference is I wouldnt try in the first place

Meh, the difference is I wouldnt try in the first place

Well with an attitude like that..... grumble.....grumble....

Meh, the difference is I wouldnt try in the first place

whares your get up and go?...complete lack of imperialism...modern you...bah...saying that you are probably 43 and i am only 16 ..but still

whares your get up and go?...complete lack of imperialism...modern you...bah...saying that you are probably 43 and i am only 15 ..but still

I seem 43 :eek: Respect your 19 yo elders young whipper-snapper

I seem 43 :eek: Respect your 19 yo elders young whipper-snapper

yes sir :(

Well with an attitude like that..... grumble.....grumble....

I blame laziness. Colonising seems like so much work

I blame laziness. Colonising seems like so much work

..ah yes but the tea influx is worth it

That's all I can come up with also? I think he has some far-fetched idea that different skin colour means different culture also,

I'm tanning at the moment just naturally but I'm a definite ten shades darker than my pasty faced self in winter- should I be worried that I may experience increased levels of cultural change? I was wondering why I was binding my feet like a 19th century Chinese woman and foraging for honey ants in native aboriginal manner ;)

that's pretty much the argument. white=good, non-white=bad.

All the things that have been achieved in europe are due to the fact that it's a white continent. Nothing more or less.

while your browning are you feeling the urge to go deer hunting with a spear and drink cows blood?

personally

white=good
pink=good
beige=good
brown=good
dark brown=good
yellow=good
black=good
Red=good

personally

white=good
pink=good
beige=good
brown=good
dark brown=good
yellow=good
black=good
Red=good


im purple and green...and a little cyan...:(

better said. three alphabets are used in europe. cyrillic, latin, arab.
*sigh*
No, there are FOUR distinct alphabets/scripts/whatever.
In order of appearance they are:
Greek, Latin, Arab, Cyrillic
Saying that Greek is Cyrillic is like saying Latin is... hmmm... Swedish

One more thing. Arab have not been used in Europe for about 80 years or so.

*sigh*
No, there are FOUR distinct alphabets/scripts/whatever.
In order of appearance they are:
Greek, Latin, Arab, Cyrillic

REALLY????
Oh i thought greek = cyrillic.
and the countries that became christian orthodox took the greak alphabet while the catholic countries took the latin alphabet.

ok my bad

(bloody greeks have to be difficult. mini-skirt wearing sons of...... :D)

Saying that Greek is Cyrillic is like saying Latin is... hmmm... Swedish


it is. same way as english/french/spanish uses the latin alphabet

it is. same way as english/french/spanish uses the latin alphabet
It's the other way around!
Cyrillic uses the Greek alphabet along with a few new letters devised by the Byzantine Monks!

But if you prefer to believe that Greek is Curillic... who am I to stop you? :rolleyes:

<edit>Yep... we do like the hard way... hence "it's all Greek to me" ;) )

It's the other way around!
Cyrillic uses the Greek alphabet along with a few new letters devised by the Byzantine Monks!

But if you prefer to believe that Greek is Curillic... who am I to stop you? :rolleyes:

<edit>Yep... we do like the hard way... hence "it's all Greek to me" ;) )

no no. :p I thought cyrillic was the greek alphabet. and when orthodox missionaries went to russia, moldova, etc they gave it to them.
After looking at the link you provided plus this (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/greek.htm) i realised my error.

snip

also, in that post i was refering to swedish using the latin alphabet. that was all

Ask any of the 4th generation "Turks" living in Germany...

Why?

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/yayinlarimiz/NEWSPOT/1997/1/N5.htm
In short, 2,1 million Turks now living in Germany contribute greatly to the German economy and this contribution increases every day. Even though Turks pay their taxes to the German government, share all the problems of German society, the fact that they are still called "auslander"(foreigners) is highly unacceptable; and that they do not share the same social, political, and educational rights with the Germans and that they are not easily granted German citizenship cannot be approved.

and it was only in 2000 that Germany redressed the issue, somewhat:
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world00/germ-turk.htm

The fuss over the first babies born in the year 2000 had a particular relevance for Turks living in Germany. As of 00.01 hours on January 1, most babies born in Germany of Turkish parents have automatic citizenship under new legislation passed last year.

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/yayinlarimiz/NEWSPOT/1997/1/N5.htm
In short, 2,1 million Turks now living in Germany contribute greatly to the German economy and this contribution increases every day. Even though Turks pay their taxes to the German government, share all the problems of German society, the fact that they are still called "auslander"(foreigners) is highly unacceptable; and that they do not share the same social, political, and educational rights with the Germans and that they are not easily granted German citizenship cannot be approved.

and it was only in 2000 that Germany redressed the issue, somewhat:
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world00/germ-turk.htm

The fuss over the first babies born in the year 2000 had a particular relevance for Turks living in Germany. As of 00.01 hours on January 1, most babies born in Germany of Turkish parents have automatic citizenship under new legislation passed last year.

Sad, but true. However, I think that German politics might reconsider this legislation in the future. Well, I hope. Anyways, I guess I'll have Irish citizenship before that actually happens

Ok playing devil's advocate here - isn't there a big problem with the fact that there are Turkish ghettos where some of the people have no interest in adapting to German customs and don't even speak German....?

However that was me playing devil's advocate I realise that the Gästarbeiter problem is vast and compounded by ignorance and unwillingness to compromise on both sides.

However, to me if you're going to move to another country you should respect its laws, learn its language and adapt somewhat to it culture...it's about respect.

Ok playing devil's advocate here - isn't there a big problem with the fact that there are Turkish ghettos where some of the people have no interest in adapting to German customs and don't even speak German....?

However that was me playing devil's advocate I realise that the Gästarbeiter problem is vast and compounded by ignorance and unwillingness to compromise on both sides.

However, to me if you're going to move to another country you should respect its laws, learn its language and adapt somewhat to it culture...it's about respect.

Yes and no... Gastarbeiter means, as the word implies, being a guest. As such, you can talk whatever language you like in my opinion. If you live in an environment that doesn't make it necessary for you to learn the language of the host country, why should you be forced?
Who would force an American soldier stationed in Germany to learn the language, or a British COE on assignment?

But when applying for citizenship, rudimentary, basic knowledge of the language should be a qualifier. And I wouldn't make any difference there between a regular Turkish worker and some Russian "Spaetaussiedler" who claims citizenship on account of his great-grandmother once owning a German Shepard...

Explain.


This is better, than what I could probably tell you.
http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html
Read all of it.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

[QUOTE]Gessler the main reason people are worried about an increased Muslim population in Europe is that there is a bigger proportion of them (to say christians) that respect some harsh interpretations of their religion over common law. This culture is typically seen in the lack of rights of their minorities and women - neither of which are treated fairly under a harsh islam doctrine (nor would they be under a harsh christian doctrine).

Actually the main reason is these people wont assimilate or respect your culture and customs, if they grow to a large enough % of your countrys population, which I call a critical mass to begin a take over, which is basically what Muslims have done to nearly every country they have entered.
Its an such an easy plan too, the only thing you need is patience, which Islam has plenty of.


Europe works on a secularist basis, and elements within it can feel threatened by the lack of divide between religion and society in islamic states. Recently the world has watched in shock as Iran officials hung two teenage boys for being gay. This is just an example of why aspects of their culture is not desired in Europe.

Well you had better kick them out then, or it will be white gays being hung as well.


So how is what you are proposing any different from "allowing" Europe to turn into a fundamentalist Muslim state (not that i believe this will happen).

Well for one it wouldnt be as harsh, just a different doctrine to the pc toltariasm you live under now.


I think you and the fundy Muslims are singing from the same hymn book.

In a way we are, but you can only have one ideology, not two or three or four in power.

Isn't it funny that the one's you criticise so unabashedly are the ones you resemble the most?

So does this mean, you resemble me? :rolleyes:

This is better, than what I could probably tell you.
http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html
Read all of it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
HAHAHA!
Hehehe...Hoho....phew.
That was good.

The Guy is from a Think Tank for "Cultural Conservatism", he's writing for the US Military.
But I'll just simply go into the meat of this excellent little piece of feces spread on paper.

[PC] is the great disease of our century, the disease that has left tens of millions of people dead in Europe, in Russia, in China, indeed around the world. It is the disease of ideology. PC is not funny. PC is deadly serious.
Right.
Political Correctness is cultural Marxism.
Does the man know what Marxism is?
First of all, both are totalitarian ideologies.
Obviously not.
...college campuses, many of which at this point are small ivy covered North Koreas...
:D
conservatism correctly understood is not an ideology
Well, in that case...
Third, just as in classical economic Marxism certain groups, i.e. workers and peasants, are a priori good, and other groups, i.e., the bourgeoisie and capital owners, are evil.
I wish the man would inform himself...
Lukacs gets a chance to put his ideas into practice, because when the home grown Bolshevik Bela Kun government is established in Hungary in 1919, he becomes deputy commissar for culture, and the first thing he did was introduce sex education into the Hungarian schools. This ensured that the workers would not support the Bela Kun government, because the Hungarian people looked at this aghast, workers as well as everyone else. But he had already made the connection that today many of us are still surprised by, that we would consider the "latest thing."
Now he's just making shit up.
So instead they decide to name it the Institute for Social Research.
Oh, boy.
The stuff we’ve been hearing about this morning – the radical feminism, the women’s studies departments, the gay studies departments, the black studies departments – all these things are branches of Critical Theory.
Wrong.
In Fromm’s view, masculinity and femininity were not reflections of ‘essential’ sexual differences, as the Romantics had thought. They were derived instead from differences in life functions, which were in part socially determined." Sex is a construct; sexual differences are a construct.
It most obviously is, how would you explain sex changes, or transsexuals otherwise?
"Horkheimer’s antagonism to the fetishization of labor, (here’s were they’re obviously departing from Marxist orthodoxy) expressed another dimension of his materialism, the demand for human, sensual happiness."
Now, all of a sudden?
The members of the Frankfurt School are Marxist, they are also, to a man, Jewish.
And that matters, does it?
Classical, economic Marxism is not light, and most of the radicals of the 60s were not deep.
Whatever. This has sunk to a schoolyard brawl now. Are they students? If they are, they are not stupid.
In "hate crimes" we now have people serving jail sentences for political thoughts.
Or rather crimes motivated by them, conveniently left out.

Is that the best you can come up with? The man has no idea what he's talking about, the article has an anti-semitic undertone, and he explained how these Philosophers (not economists, not statespeople) who accepted parts of Marx's philosophy, not economics, influenced student protests in the 60s.
He neglects to tell me what that has to do with Political Correctness, and he neglects to tell me how that makes the Civil Rights Movement any less worthwhile.

He uses fancy speech to say "PC is the devil!", but fails to prove it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
HAHAHA!
Hehehe...Hoho....phew.
That was good.
The Guy is from a Think Tank for "Cultural Conservatism", he's writing for the US Military.
But I'll just simply go into the meat of this excellent little piece of feces spread on paper.
Right.
Does the man know what Marxism is?
Obviously not.
:D
Well, in that case...
I wish the man would inform himself...
Now he's just making shit up.
Oh, boy.
Wrong.
It most obviously is, how would you explain sex changes, or transsexuals otherwise?
Now, all of a sudden?
And that matters, does it?
Whatever. This has sunk to a schoolyard brawl now. Are they students? If they are, they are not stupid.
Or rather crimes motivated by them, conveniently left out.
Is that the best you can come up with? The man has no idea what he's talking about, the article has an anti-semitic undertone, and he explained how these Philosophers (not economists, not statespeople) who accepted parts of Marx's philosophy, not economics, influenced student protests in the 60s.
He neglects to tell me what that has to do with Political Correctness, and he neglects to tell me how that makes the Civil Rights Movement any less worthwhile.
He uses fancy speech to say "PC is the devil!", but fails to prove it.

lol I like how you put a spin of ridicule on his paper, despite the true facts it presents.
Your just spreading pc by using its favourite weapon of defence, which is one of simple denial that anything is wrong with pc, that pc can never be questioned.
Face it your part of newspeak and you don't even know it.

lol I like how you put a spin of ridicule on his paper, despite the true facts it presents.
Your just spreading pc by using its favourite weapon of defence, which is one of simple denial that anything is wrong with pc, that pc can never be questioned.
Face it your part of newspeak and you don't even know it.

You know Gessler you have a point of being PC. It can go too far. I remember a few years back some people wishing to change the name of manholes because it was not PC. There's been all this crap about removing Xmas trees so as not to offend others, etc...

But what the hell does this have to do with immigration? Britain is one of the most PC countries in europe, and they were involved in invading a country. In the last year France has sent troops into africa and the americas.
Europeans as a rule are not anti-immigration because it benefits us. And after all the SHIT we've had to go through due to nationality and race, well i think we can do it if we want.

so we should be non-pc. Treat all the wogs, chinks, pakies, bitches, colonials and queers alike?

or we can treat everyone on an equal basis and not base our opinions on minor differences

[QUOTE=Jjimjja]You know Gessler you have a point of being PC. It can go too far. I remember a few years back some people wishing to change the name of manholes because it was not PC. There's been all this crap about removing Xmas trees so as not to offend others, etc...

Exactly, but I saw the rot long before this stuff came up, and I remember the manhole debate. I noticed pc creeping into society back in the early to mid eighties it first seriously raised its ugly head and started to declare arrogantly what people could and couldnt say, and what would now be called so on, and what else wasnt appropriate to even have any more.
Ive never been a racist in my life despite what some on here would believe, and I despise anyone making fun of anyone because of their race or culture, I really do.
I have always felt this way, and long before it was pc to do so.
But what I really hate even more is the idea that people have to be careful now what they say, or even what they think. Thats not a free society, thats just toltariasm.
There is still blatant racism around despite years of pc indoctrination, however theres also now a climate of fear, of being careful what to say, and what to think. The humour of laughing at peoples racial makeup, or culture, has now become a serious social crime.
While I don't ever condone spite, I recognise humourous jibes for what they are, with no malice or hurt intended.

But what the hell does this have to do with immigration? Britain is one of the most PC countries in europe, and they were involved in invading a country. In the last year France has sent troops into africa and the americas.

What does pc have to do with it?



Europeans as a rule are not anti-immigration because it benefits us. And after all the SHIT we've had to go through due to nationality and race, well i think we can do it if we want.

It won't benefit you much if you bring in loads of middle easterners, who don't want to adapt to your culture, by not assimilating, there is a difference between adding and taking over.
I can see why Muslims dont want to adopt European culture, mainly because of its liberal views that clash with their religous view of how society should be, and most importantly how their kids should be bought up.
All they have to do to achieve this, is not to assimilate with you, and most importantly, to breed more.

Ok playing devil's advocate here - isn't there a big problem with the fact that there are Turkish ghettos where some of the people have no interest in adapting to German customs and don't even speak German....?

In ANY of the cities in Connecticut (and it's not a big state!) I can go into neighborhoods where English is secondary to Spanish or Polish or Russian or Italian. Especially in Bridgeport, New Britain, Waterbury or New Haven...
What language one speaks should not matter for citizenship.

However that was me playing devil's advocate I realise that the Gästarbeiter problem is vast and compounded by ignorance and unwillingness to compromise on both sides.

However, to me if you're going to move to another country you should respect its laws, learn its language and adapt somewhat to it culture...it's about respect.

Ayep.

Respect the laws? Yes.
Learn the language? Yes, to make your own life easier.
Adapt to it's culture? That's your own call...

In ANY of the cities in Connecticut (and it's not a big state!) I can go into neighborhoods where English is secondary to Spanish or Polish or Russian or Italian. Especially in Bridgeport, New Britain, Waterbury or New Haven...
What language one speaks should not matter for citizenship.



Ayep.

Respect the laws? Yes.
Learn the language? Yes, to make your own life easier.
Adapt to it's culture? That's your own call...

I think it's different for america where you formed your vibrant cultures out of immigration. However what works for the goose might not necessarily work for the gander - in Europe you should at least respect the culture of the country you move to and seek to understand it. - like why are the Finns so bloody glum :D or whta is the German preoccupation with punctuality where did that originally come from. I'm not saying people should renounce their religions or stop their own cultural idiosyncracies, but at least integrate their world with the world of the place they now live in. My mother's lived in Germany for the past 10 years and while she considers herself Irish her diet has completely changed (all these cold meats and sausages for breakfast on black bread - :()

Maybe there should be stages of integration - like:
if you want to work in another country you should possibly learn the language (depends on the circumstances and how long you want to stay - see Cabra West's post)

if you want citizenship then you should learn the language and some culture and history of the country. They have some sort of test like this in America don't they?

I can see why Muslims dont want to adopt European culture, mainly because of its liberal views that clash with their religous view of how society should be, and most importantly how their kids should be bought up.
All they have to do to achieve this, is not to assimilate with you, and most importantly, to breed more.

If this is the case how come Northern Ireland isn't completely full of Catholics now and how come it hasn't organised itself to become part of Ireland again (what seemingly all catholics want - but hey if you can make sweeping generalisations about religions then why can't I?) They "breed" far faster than the average Protestant families up north. I think it might be a bit more complex than simply one group "outbreeding" the other.

If this is the case how come Northern Ireland isn't completely full of Catholics now and how come it hasn't organised itself to become part of Ireland again (what seemingly all catholics want - but hey if you can make sweeping generalisations about religions then why can't I?) They "breed" far faster than the average Protestant families up north. I think it might be a bit more complex than simply one group "outbreeding" the other.

I wasnt making a sweeping generalisation as you put it, don't we love our pc buzz expressions. :rolleyes: The comparison you drew up isnt really an apt one for a start, if the Catholics in Northern Ireland are breeding as fast as you say, and the protestants arent, then yes, one day Northern Ireland will be more than likely, controlled by Catholics, who probably would vote to return Northern Ireland back to Ireland.
Also your talking about one small nation, compared to Europe, and its 15,000,000 muslims who are out breeding their Christian counterparts probably at a rate of three to one.
Tell me its a sweeping generalisation in twenty years time, if unchecked the muslim % has increased through higher birth rates and immigration to 45,000,000.
While at the same time the caucasian majority has continued to decrease.

ok first of all. HAHA thought you were going to ignore me! Me you speak to me Nahnahnah. :D


[QUOTE]
Exactly, but I saw the rot long before this stuff came up, and I remember the manhole debate. I noticed pc creeping into society back in the early to mid eighties it first seriously raised its ugly head and started to declare arrogantly what people could and couldnt say, and what would now be called so on, and what else wasnt appropriate to even have any more.
Ive never been a racist in my life despite what some on here would believe, and I despise anyone making fun of anyone because of their race or culture, I really do.
I have always felt this way, and long before it was pc to do so.
But what I really hate even more is the idea that people have to be careful now what they say, or even what they think. Thats not a free society, thats just toltariasm.
There is still blatant racism around despite years of pc indoctrination, however theres also now a climate of fear, of being careful what to say, and what to think. The humour of laughing at peoples racial makeup, or culture, has now become a serious social crime.
While I don't ever condone spite, I recognise humourous jibes for what they are, with no malice or hurt intended.

Unfortunately you have thrown around the wrong terms then. You have based alot on race in previous posts. You can believe one culture is superior to another, but saying that its superior because its white/brown/yellow is going to cause problems.

[QUOTE]
It won't benefit you much if you bring in loads of middle easterners, who don't want to adapt to your culture, by not assimilating, there is a difference between adding and taking over.
I can see why Muslims dont want to adopt European culture, mainly because of its liberal views that clash with their religous view of how society should be, and most importantly how their kids should be bought up.
All they have to do to achieve this, is not to assimilate with you, and most importantly, to breed more.


The same applies to christians you realise. European views clash with every religion :p
Also whether someone wishes to adapt or not makes no difference. Through experiences people change. If a Turk goes an lives in germany for 20 years, he mya remain turkish but Germany and its culture with have its affect on him. More so for his kids, even more for the grandkids, etc....

federal what.... britian has nothing to loose ,countries like france and germany are struggling with their own economic probs,ireland does its own thing anyway eu has taken on the other eastern block countries and whos gonna pay for that????

Tell me its a sweeping generalisation in twenty years time, if unchecked the muslim % has increased through higher birth rates and immigration to 45,000,000.
While at the same time the caucasian majority has continued to decrease.

even if that is the case, they will only make up 10% of europes population.

also you seem to be forgetting the 80 odd million people that will be joing the EU at that time. Say Hi to Turkey!

jiggig or what eva his name is says britian never invaded any other country....what about ireland you shmuck idiot

federal what.... britian has nothing to loose ,countries like france and germany are struggling with their own economic probs,ireland does its own thing anyway eu has taken on the other eastern block countries and whos gonna pay for that????

heh? :confused:

Gessler, there are a few questions you failed to answer so far:

1) What do you think European culture is, exactly?
2) In what way is skin colour related to culture in any way?
3) What has political correctness to do with immigration?

jiggig or what eva his name is says britian never invaded any other country....what about ireland you shmuck idiot

Um where?

Usually when you're speaking about a specific point you disagree with by another poster, it's helpful for all involved if you reply with a quote of it - look at the bottom right-hand corner of each post.

You know Gessler you have a point of being PC. It can go too far. I remember a few years back some people wishing to change the name of manholes because it was not PC. There's been all this crap about removing Xmas trees so as not to offend others, etc...

But what the hell does this have to do with immigration? Britain is one of the most PC countries in europe, and they were involved in invading a country. In the last year France has sent troops into africa and the americas.
Europeans as a rule are not anti-immigration because it benefits us. And after all the SHIT we've had to go through due to nationality and race, well i think we can do it if we want.


I went back two pages and this is the best I could find - and in this case he said they WERE involved in invading a country, and obviously he was talking about Iraq. But prove me wrong - I don't want to go trawling through the 40 odd pages here though.

Gessler, there are a few questions you failed to answer so far:

1) What do you think European culture is, exactly?
2) In what way is skin colour related to culture in any way?
3) What has political correctness to do with immigration?


For me tha answer is
1) Jam - we all make and eat it.
2) Well if you're another skin colour that might mean you're an immigrant and can't fully understand the complexities of jam. But second generations and more all love jam.
3) Well you can't call an immigrant a Jammy Dodger anymore, you've got to call them "people that have yet to garner a full appreciation of preserve cuisine" or PUP's (Preserve-Unappreciative People), although this is now becoming associated with being used in a derogatory fashion, so politicians opt for the former.

lol I like how you put a spin of ridicule on his paper, despite the true facts it presents.
I knew that ridiculing it wasn't enough, so I also dealt with the "facts". Did you read my response?

[QUOTE=Jjimjja]ok first of all. HAHA thought you were going to ignore me! Me you speak to me Nahnahnah. :D

Applauds your incredible genius!
I was going to, but you stopped posting hateful crap at me, so I responded, my ignore is actually a bluff, that works well for me, as I can see what the other poster is saying, but not have to talk to him/her, as they think they are being ignored.
Of course I could use the ignore button, but I'd only really use that for an extreme case of never ending hateful posts.



Unfortunately you have thrown around the wrong terms then. You have based alot on race in previous posts. You can believe one culture is superior to another, but saying that its superior because its white/brown/yellow is going to cause problems.

First, yes, I believe white culture is the best, and I make no apology for it either.
This doesnt mean I hate, or disrespect other cultures or races for their differences.
Nor would I take offence if another culture saw theirs as better than mine.



The same applies to christians you realise. European views clash with every religion :p

Whys that?

Also whether someone wishes to adapt or not makes no difference.

Maybe not one person, or even a thousand to begin with, but it makes abig difference if its millions.


Through experiences people change. If a Turk goes an lives in germany for 20 years, he mya remain turkish but Germany and its culture with have its affect on him. More so for his kids, even more for the grandkids, etc....

That used to be the case, but lately, with pc encouraging no assimilation, with their ideals of respect for different languages particularly in the same country, walls are starting to grow up between different cultures in the one nation, that werent their before.
Alot of emmigrants to my country, dont try as hard as ones before them to learn English and our customs, as they can now just blend in with their own culture and just be happy with that.
You mighten think this matters, it could one day if your life or someone elses depended on being able to understand each other properly.

jiggig or what eva his name is says britian never invaded any other country....what about ireland you shmuck idiot

not to mention Africa, India, China, france (agincourt)..scotland, America, and all the little colonies

not to mention Africa, India, China, france (agincourt)..scotland, America, and all the little coloniesBesides France and Scotland, that was mainly "private enterprises"... Britain itself didn't have to do anything but let lawlessness run in its name! :p

Besides France and Scotland, that was mainly "private enterprises"... Britain itself didn't have to do anything but let lawlessness run in its name! :p

wales, Burma, Tunisia, malta, and...gibralta?(sp)

=Cabra West]Gessler, there are a few questions you failed to answer so far:
1) What do you think European culture is, exactly?

White.


2) In what way is skin colour related to culture in any way?

Identifys us.


3) What has political correctness to do with immigration?

Alot, it is not encouraging peaceful societys, it throws up barriers, by not encouraging proper assimilation, mainly because it encourages the immigrants not to learn the ways and particularly language of their adopted country, as their childrens first choice not second, or third in cases.

I knew that ridiculing it wasn't enough, so I also dealt with the "facts". Did you read my response?

Yes, you ridiculed the facts, with no reasons why.

wales, Burma, Tunisia, malta, and...gibralta?(sp)Gibraltar... I meant the things on your list... Anyway, it's even more immoral to let private businesses run colonization than to have the military do it. In the end, it was the businesses that made the laws, and those tended to be pro-business instead of morally well-founded.

Alot, it is not encouraging peaceful societys, it throws up barriers, by not encouraging proper assimilation, mainly because it encourages the immigrants not to learn the ways and particularly language of their adopted country, as their childrens first choice not second, or third in cases.

I agree, we simply cannot have people wandering around Britain as subjects without even being british! i dont mean that only people born here should live here, if people want to come and live here they must show that they can like everyone else.

Gibraltar... I meant the things on your list... Anyway, it's even more immoral to let private businesses run colonization than to have the military do it.

you say it like its a bad thing... :eek: :p

I agree, we simply cannot have people wandering around Britain as subjects without even being british! i dont mean that only people born here should live here, if people want to come and live here they must show that they can like everyone else.

Unfortunately this will never work, as history shows, alarge number of people moving into a country, usually dont assimilate, but pushout or take over.

Unfortunately this will never work, as history shows, alarge number of people moving into a country, usually dont assimilate, but pushout or take over.

reheheeeally?.,....i considering the ratio of foreigners to natives in britain i dnt think that is going to happen.

reheheeeally?.,....i considering the ratio of foreigners to natives in britain i dnt think that is going to happen.

Yes reheheeeally... it would happen if foriegn immigration went unchecked as it seems to in Britain, and the muslim birthrates were higher than British ones, over a few hundred years, you would see one people being slowly repalced by another.

Yes reheheeeally... it would happen if foriegn immigration went unchecked as it seems to in Britain, and the muslim birthrates were higher than British ones, over a few hundred years, you would see one people being slowly repalced by another.

which further strengthens my point..make me PM!

1) What do you think European culture is, exactly?

White.

2) In what way is skin colour related to culture in any way?

Identifys us.

Sorry, but I think you are confusing culture with nature here. Culture is, per definition, a group of norms/values/traditions that an individual learns during his life, not a trait that lies in one's genes from birth.

I just can't see the logic behind the idea that in order to be a "good European", it's better to be a white person than a black or "other-coloured" person. Why? Because no-one can help not being white. As a black person, you can perfectly learn the norms and values of Western society (= CULTURE), but you can't learn to be white. The thought that having a certain skin colour is an essential part of culture just puzzles me...

jiggig or what eva his name is says britian never invaded any other country....what about ireland you shmuck idiot

where the hell did i say that??? :confused:
read carefully before posting flamer

Um where?

Usually when you're speaking about a specific point you disagree with by another poster, it's helpful for all involved if you reply with a quote of it - look at the bottom right-hand corner of each post.

I went back two pages and this is the best I could find - and in this case he said they WERE involved in invading a country, and obviously he was talking about Iraq. But prove me wrong - I don't want to go trawling through the 40 odd pages here though.

my hero :fluffle:

thanks

my hero :fluffle:

thanks

Anytime - people should know it's common deceny to (A) read a few pages at the end of a thread and (B) to actually READ a thread before assuming that they're attacking your values or something - sheesh!

That just diverted the thread to people going on about prior british invasions which wouldn't have happened if they'd done (A)

Anyways back to discussion

Gessler - are we hgoing to continually have this topic where we go
"what's European culture?" and you go "white culture"
and then we ask "what on earth is white culture" (because most of us know that the dictionary terms of culture does not include a racial prerequisite, and then you answer back "european culture"

Don't you see what we want is for you to defend your use of "race and culture as interchangeable" - which you have yet to do, and I understand why, because noone can defend it.

Right, that out of the way I want to ask a question to the more open-minded folks out there
Do you think that the concept of national identity in europe is dying?

[QUOTE]
Applauds your incredible genius!
I was going to, but you stopped posting hateful crap at me, so I responded, my ignore is actually a bluff, that works well for me, as I can see what the other poster is saying, but not have to talk to him/her, as they think they are being ignored.
Of course I could use the ignore button, but I'd only really use that for an extreme case of never ending hateful posts.


I no point was i hateful, nor did i say anything hateful.
But you must understand why people can get annoyed at your post. answering with a "yeah right :rolleyes: " is not debating. Most of the people you've been debating on this thread are open minded, and if you give credible sources they will admit defeat or find a counter source. Show credible sources showing that birth rates amongst non-intergrating minorties is substantially higher that the natives.
As an example (http://www.ine.es/en/prodyser/pubweb/espcif/espcif05_en.htm) (good source for stats on spain by the way)

-----------------------

You do realise a large majority of berbers are white and so are alot of Persians?
Gessler why don't you just say european culture instead of white. Colours are ambigious in this context. Or is your worried about western europe, north america and australia, say germanic cultures.

Unfortunately this will never work, as history shows, alarge number of people moving into a country, usually dont assimilate, but pushout or take over.

Actually, history does NOT show that. It happens sometimes. As when the European settlers in the US pushed out the native Americans.

But it does not happen all the time. Successive waves of immigrants, be they Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans, Chinese, Hispanics and any other ethnicity you want to name, have NOT displaced the populace or significantly changed the form of government. Rather they have assimilated to the existing societal structures of the US...which of course, is why the immigrated in the first place

Right, that out of the way I want to ask a question to the more open-minded folks out there
Do you think that the concept of national identity in europe is dying?

Unfortunately no. Race and nationality play a VERY important role in europe. We can push it into the background, but as soon as a paddy starts moaning about Ireland, and englishman will get annoyed! Or some stupid frog start moaning about the rebate. Or Hans starts saying things like german were also killed during WWII. yeah right :rolleyes:



now to being serious. The fact is people always stick with their kin. Whether on a town/city/region/states/nation level does not matter.
As europe becomes more intergrated things should start to change. I would not mind seeing, say 20% of each EU country emigrating to other EU countries. example France= 80% french, 20% english/scottish/german/italian/etc.

There is too much ignorance about such things these days....

Actually, history does NOT show that. It happens sometimes. As when the European settlers in the US pushed out the native Americans.
But it does not happen all the time. Successive waves of immigrants, be they Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans, Chinese, Hispanics and any other ethnicity you want to name, have NOT displaced the populace or significantly changed the form of government. Rather they have assimilated to the existing societal structures of the US...which of course, is why the immigrated in the first place

Even that was one power taking land from another. It was not native americans allowing white to emigrate and they simply became a majority.

In fact i know of no case where through legal (as in allowed) immigration resulted in one culture taking over from another.

In fact i know of no case where through legal (as in allowed) immigration resulted in one culture taking over from another.

1. Re-read what I wrote.
2.Get out and travel. I suspect from your view points that you are probably from continental Europe, which has historically equated immigration with MIGRATION or conquest. But there are plenty of cases where immigration has not resulted in one culture taking over from another. America is a prime example but the Western Hemisphere in general is a larger example.

Brazil, Peru etc, all have VERY large Japanese populations...but you cannot describe Brazilian society as Japanese.

Argentina has very large Jewish and German populations, but again, you couldn't describe it's culture as either of those.

Canada as we know has populations that come from all over. Yet the people of Chinese descent who live in the Vancouver are the one's cheering the loudest at the hockey games.

The Chinese are a major ethinic force in almost every southeast asian country, but if you asked somebody of Chinese descent living in Indonesia, they would probably not say they were Chinese.

And although there is a currently a big to-do about the Muslim populations in Britain, the distinction between a British Muslim and ye standard old Anglo-Saxon Brit, is lost on me. They talk the same, they eat the same curry take out, they wear the same suits from Burberry and they watch ManU beat up on Arsenal when they can.

Just because some nuts set off bombs does not mean everyone is like that. Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kazinsky were both terrorists, but you don't see them shaking down every white guy in the US as a bomber.

Sorry, but your theory does not hold water.

Erm, this is rather long... I'm a Brit, travel often, FYI.

I'm just saying that I think culture in Europe will become almost indistinguishible from that of N. Africa and Arabia.

I'm giving my opinion of what will happen. I'm not claiming to be able to see the future.
Doubtful at best. Merely the difference in climate makes it different, for a start, and culture that works in different places gets picked up. It's evolution, baby.

European Culture has been dying for the last 2500 years now, so what?
Yeah, it really went downhill when the romans and then the christians showed up
So true...

OK, OK... Russia won't be a member of the EU. Becoming Northern China is more likely.
IMO, Russia's like the the bit between Europe and Asia. It has elements from both, and isn't really part of either.

There culture is nothing like yours.
So... You're trying to tell us exactly what our culture is?

And so did the Celts. But in the end, they profited from contact.
Y'know. After all the migrating to Cornwall, Eire and Scotland. ^_^;;

look at Ireland when we where poor families of 8 wheren't unusual now it's 1 or 2
Yeah - my great grandmothers had 14 sibling each - I only have eleven first cousins.

And yes I know the Arabs have contributed alot to the knowlege of the world, as have the Chinese, but you have to admit, there was a huge gap between white civilisation and others by the beginning of the 20thC.
If you're idiotic enough to go by the 'average IQ against continent' graph, doesn't that put Asia above Europe above the rest?
And Gessler, please, stop being an arse.

White people are in danger of loosing the right to even have their own religon.
Woah woah, woah. Christianity =/= 'White releigion'. At all.

<devil's advocate>
Christianity
</devil's advocate>
Agreed.

The simple problem of raising our own birthrates to at least replacing ourselves, is to remove all feminist ideology, and teaching, along with misplaced values that encourage homosexuality to spread.
Excuse me while I spit in your face.

It's an essential part of being German that you are tought to be civil and tolerant from Primary School onwards. *nods* As it should be - here too. (Though we're getting american influences -_-;;)

Europeans can do what they like. I'm not European, I'm English.

Who's for making Great Britain a continent in it's own right?
Me! We have three, maybe four, whole countries already!
Last time you tried, it wasn't an overall success, now, was it? Wot d'ya mean, it was great!

White.

Identifys us.

So... being European is nothing more than skin colour? We can forget about the whole history and tradition bit as long as we don't get a tan???


Alot, it is not encouraging peaceful societys, it throws up barriers, by not encouraging proper assimilation, mainly because it encourages the immigrants not to learn the ways and particularly language of their adopted country, as their childrens first choice not second, or third in cases.

Hang on, weren't you the one who is afraid of cultures mixing? So immigrants should not keep their own identity but mix it with the culture they move to? To what end? One large, homogenous world culture? Where nobody is allowed to live as he/she likes, but all are forced to behave in a standart pattern?

Excuse me while I spit in your face.


Your all class.

Europe has been dying on a perpetual basis. We just welcome immigrants who make up for it.
Evidently, just extremist immigrants ready, willing and able to tear down you "civilisation".

[QUOTE=Jjimjja][QUOTE=Gessler]
I no point was i hateful, nor did i say anything hateful.

You were abit rude c'mon, anyway thats past.


But you must understand why people can get annoyed at your post. answering with a "yeah right :rolleyes: " is not debating.

Thats not my normal answer in most of my posts, and you know it.


Most of the people you've been debating on this thread are open minded, and if you give credible sources they will admit defeat or find a counter source.

My credible sources are usually debunked automatically as racist or religous, with no consideration given that they may be true as well.



Show credible sources showing that birth rates amongst non-intergrating minorties is substantially higher that the natives.

lol why dont you just ask me to go and shoot some fish in a barrel, as well?

http://www.europarl.eu.int/inddem/docs/papers/The%20demographic%20challenge%20in%20Europe.pdf

And this

http://freedomsnewbirth.blogspot.com/

Here, the percentage of younger muslim youth under 20 is considerably higher than all their western counterparts in Europe, and growing.

http://www.twq.com/04summer/docs/04summer_savage.pdf



You do realise a large majority of berbers are white and so are alot of Persians?
Like as in the Japanese being called the 'whites of Asia."

Gessler why don't you just say european culture instead of white.
Because thats what European culture is pretty much based on, on what white people have done for the last two thousand years and more.

[QUOTE=Cabra West]So... being European is nothing more than skin colour? We can forget about the whole history and tradition bit as long as we don't get a tan???

OK give an honest answer here, if you saw some really dark black people on a plane you were on, and they were asleep, under some blankets, where would you assume they came from?
If you saw the exact same thing, the only difference being their skin was a ruddy reddish white colour, where would you assume they came from?


Hang on, weren't you the one who is afraid of cultures mixing? So immigrants should not keep their own identity but mix it with the culture they move to?
Im not advocating they remove their total cultural identity, because that would be impossible, but that they learn the customs, morals, laws, religon and most importantly, language of their adopted country as of importance first not second, or third, and teach their children likewise.
Im also not in favour of mass immigration of cultures that dont follow any of this, particularly Muslims, as they are the most volatile.


To what end? One large, homogenous world culture? Where nobody is allowed to live as he/she likes, but all are forced to behave in a standart pattern?

But is'nt that what you want, with your 'great melting pot' pc fantasy?

[QUOTE=Deinstag]Actually, history does NOT show that. It happens sometimes. As when the European settlers in the US pushed out the native Americans.

Not to mention the fall of the Roman Empire, or this...

http://libro.uca.edu/socwar/sw1.htm

Or this

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Education.56/current_category.117/resourceguide_detail.html

And this sadly, happenning just north of my own country

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Public_Affairs/426/westpapuahrights.pdf

Rwanda?



But it does not happen all the time. Successive waves of immigrants, be they Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans, Chinese, Hispanics and any other ethnicity you want to name, have NOT displaced the populace or significantly changed the form of government.

But it does happen.

Rather they have assimilated to the existing societal structures of the US...which of course, is why the immigrated in the first place

So go for a walk through a black neigborhood if your that confident.

[QUOTE]

So go for a walk through a black neigborhood if your that confident.

Ha! I walk through one every day!!! It's also a white neighborhood and a Hispanic neighborhood and a Pakistani neighborhood. Guess what? Everyone get's along.

Apparently you really are clueless as to how integrated the US and other Western Hemispheric countries are.

No immigration means no new thoughts...no new thoughts means stagnation.

You are welcome to stagnate.

[QUOTE=Deinstag][QUOTE=Gessler]
Ha! I walk through one every day!!! It's also a white neighborhood and a Hispanic neighborhood and a Pakistani neighborhood. Guess what? Everyone get's along.

Truly amazing. Is there a blue friendly monster as well too mate?


Apparently you really are clueless as to how integrated the US and other Western Hemispheric countries are.

I just watch the news and reports that have most white people living seperate in the outer suburbs, alot now in gated communitys, while blacks, hispanics etc living mostly seperate in the inner city.
Your wonderful Sesame Street neighborhood is just that, pot induced I'd say.

No immigration means no new thoughts...no new thoughts means stagnation.

So you rely totally on immigration for new thoughts?
How do you know it will stagnate, do you have some proof of this?

You are welcome to stagnate.

Thanks, only I don't see it that way, its a shame you need so much from foriegn culture to have a positive idenity of yourself, or any identity for that matter.

Oh no its not dying, its just resting a bit for a few decades to catch its breath

[QUOTE]

OK give an honest answer here, if you saw some really dark black people on a plane you were on, and they were asleep, under some blankets, where would you assume they came from?
If you saw the exact same thing, the only difference being their skin was a ruddy reddish white colour, where would you assume they came from?

Well, as the first black people I saw in my live where US soldiers, I tend to consider blacks American, first of all. Only after I hear them speak I might assume that they are from someplace else...
If I saw people with pink or red skin, I would consider them to be either Northern American, Australian or European, depending on my geographic location at that time.


Im not advocating they remove their total cultural identity, because that would be impossible, but that they learn the customs, morals, laws, religon and most importantly, language of their adopted country as of importance first not second, or third, and teach their children likewise.
Im also not in favour of mass immigration of cultures that dont follow any of this, particularly Muslims, as they are the most volatile.

You know, a German comedian once pointed out that "learning the customs, morals etc." is quite impossible. He gave an example of a Japanese who came to Southern Germany to live there. He adapted everything: He learned the language, he changed his eating habits, he learned the social ways and the cultural traditions so you could almost mistake him for a local. And then he got transferred to Northern Germany. He found that the language he had learned in the South wasn't understood to the smallest degree in the North, he found that people behaved extremely differently and that his "German" social skills put him in the most awkward situations as they were deemed incredibly rude in the North, he found that virtually none of the traditions were the same...
In short, all he had learned as how to behave, talk and act German proved to be unusable 500 km north.

It's pointless to try and force people to give up their own culture in order to adapt to another culture. The better way is to let them live their way and live your own way yourself, that way both can learn the really important stuff from each other.



But is'nt that what you want, with your 'great melting pot' pc fantasy?

No, it's not.
I never even heard the word pc (unless it stands for personal computer) before you started throwing it around in every single post....
And I don't believe in the melting pot theory. I believe in a multi-cultural society, everybody with his/her own culture.

[QUOTE=Cabra West][QUOTE=Gessler]
If I saw people with pink or red skin, I would consider them to be either Northern American, Australian or European, depending on my geographic location at that time.

Exactly, European!



You know, a German comedian once pointed out that "learning the customs, morals etc." is quite impossible. He gave an example of a Japanese who came to Southern Germany to live there. He adapted everything: He learned the language, he changed his eating habits, he learned the social ways and the cultural traditions so you could almost mistake him for a local. And then he got transferred to Northern Germany. He found that the language he had learned in the South wasn't understood to the smallest degree in the North, he found that people behaved extremely differently and that his "German" social skills put him in the most awkward situations as they were deemed incredibly rude in the North, he found that virtually none of the traditions were the same...
In short, all he had learned as how to behave, talk and act German proved to be unusable 500 km north.

It would also be like if he learned English etc from the cockneys in London, then tried to get along with the 'i say old boy' kind of english, he would hit a bit of a cultural wall there too.
But we recognise each kind of English culture here, as English as each other.


It's pointless to try and force people to give up their own culture in order to adapt to another culture. The better way is to let them live their way and live your own way yourself, that way both can learn the really important stuff from each other.

Well and good, but its dangerous to set up barriers in the same country like that.



No, it's not.
I never even heard the word pc (unless it stands for personal computer) before you started throwing it around in every single post....

I envy you then, for its aword and theology, I'm tired of hearing about myself.


And I don't believe in the melting pot theory. I believe in a multi-cultural society, everybody with his/her own culture.

It would be nice if that worked, but this encourages language barriers, which make society an unsafe place.

Also Cabra, this is my last posts on Nation States, as its taking too much of my time away from Art, which I'm trying to study for, and get better at.
So thanks for all the chat, and I hope you get through all that personal stuff.
Just remember, leave the past in the past where it belongs.

Ciao.

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Cabra West]

Exactly, European!

European, American or Australian. And even then I might be wrong, as he might as well be from Africa or Asia...
Skin colour doesn't tell me the first thing about what culture this person grew up in.



It would also be like if he learned English etc from the cockneys in London, then tried to get along with the 'i say old boy' kind of english, he would hit a bit of a cultural wall there too.
But we recognise each kind of English culture here, as English as each other.

You are talking accents here. I'm talking dialects. Contrary to England/Great Britain, Germany is not a centralistic country and never has been, as a result the differences in language, religion, tradition, behaviour and culture on the whole are vast. And this is just one and the same country...


Well and good, but its dangerous to set up barriers in the same country like that.




It would be nice if that worked, but this encourages language barriers, which make society an unsafe place.

I disagree.

snip
funny you should also re-read what i said :p

i specified that IMMIGRATION has NOT led to change in cultures. I was infact agreeing with you. (except the US point as they invaded and took over).

EDIT: Probably need to be clearer in the future :headbang:

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Deinstag]

Truly amazing. Is there a blue friendly monster as well too mate?

Your wonderful Sesame Street neighborhood is just that, pot induced I'd say.

So you rely totally on immigration for new thoughts?
How do you know it will stagnate, do you have some proof of this?


Are you xenophobic?
Have you traveled?
How old are you?

Clearly you haven't lived or travelled in the western hemisphere so have to rely on "news", which you are further exaggerating. Everyone knows that "news" reports exceptions, not rules.

Clearly you have never walked down a New York Street, SF, Rio or Vancouver. One walk in Manhattan is very enlightnening. Yesterday, my breakfast was a bagel (typically jewish food) served by a Mexican immigrant and baked by immigrants from Thailand. The place is called Absolute Bagels on 108 and Broadway. I suggest you look it up sometime. THAT is emblematic of the situation in the US. The other cities are similar, as is London...the sole European city I have found to be like that.

No new thoughts Hmmm..Einstein, Fermi, and a whole host of other notables were immigrants. The majority of people getting doctorates in the US, come from OUTSIDE the US. Most of them choose to stay and become part of the society. Of course, natives have new thoughts, but why not import brainpower when you can? It is one of the reasons the US has so many patents granted in a year.

It's a shame that you are so closed minded that you don't see the value of bringing the world to you.

This thread has grown really tiresome. Don't bother replying, I won't be reading.

[QUOTE=Gessler][QUOTE]
No new thoughts Hmmm..Einstein, Fermi, and a whole host of other notables were immigrants. The majority of people getting doctorates in the US, come from OUTSIDE the US. Most of them choose to stay and become part of the society. Of course, natives have new thoughts, but why not import brainpower when you can? It is one of the reasons the US has so many patents granted in a year.


He's only going to argue that these immigrants were white to start with + european.
He does not like non-whites as he believes they will replace our culture through uncontrolled immigration

I ask you are Europe dying? I have seen such discussions on other forums, so you might have had this before. With birth rates as the ones we have now the population will be dropping. And you have the inevitable fact that we will be losing ground to countries such as China in the economical front. But what do you people say true or not?

Europe is dying because we're mocking the US as stupid monkeys for our fucked capitalists would like us being the US, but we'll never be the US (thank goodness) for they were the first being like they are and they have a system which only survives by being the "First Brawny Boy of the Class"...

Should Europe try to become US 2, the US 1 would crush its bones and eat its blasted marrow before it could say "REACHED"!! :D

Europe will keep dying till we don't radically change our society and economical system...only by becoming something radically different from the US we stand any chance of survival...

And after all...people gives birth to a lot less children...but you ever asked why?
May be because with starving real wages such like those most people is given they have truly hard time to build a family and support the cost of making children??

I definitely hope Europe will die if that means a change to something new...I definitely would stab it right into its corrupted heart if that would mean that European people will survive those fucked technocrats who rule it!!
Jashkar

And after all...people gives birth to a lot less children...but you ever asked why?
May be because with starving real wages such like those most people is given they have truly hard time to build a family and support the cost of making children??

I definitely hope Europe will die if that means a change to something new...I definitely would stab it right into its corrupted heart if that would mean that European people will survive those fucked technocrats who rule it!!
Jashkar

Wages and the standard of living (incl. infant mortality) have the opposite effect from what you're describing! Check the stats of any single nation over time, or check the birth rate of poor countries.
Europeans have less children simply because they are engulfed in an all out effort to amass more money, more goods, a better life. Unfortunately the definition of this "betterness" is enforced by the capitalistic organisation of our economies i.e. more goods, more stuff, more money in general.

But I do agree with your second point. Societies evolve or die. I am certain that Europe cannot evolve into something radically different in the near future. There is no alternative economic system, our social/welfare states continuously retreat to meet the demands of a globalised economy, fewer people are politically informed and even fewer politically active.

I voted that Europe is not dying and I believe this to be true. Because no matter what happens Europe will evolve into something new.
It it's going to be for the better... this remains to be seen ;)

I think it is more beacause Europe is counting to much on immigrants that it dosnt realise that culture is destroyed like britain 25 years ago there wasnt a mosque in sight and today there all over the place it's because Europe is so desperate for cheap labour is dosnt see the damage it can do and on the money bases there relying to much on countries like america and china for trade they need to start relying on eachother stop taking immigrants for the sake of cheap labour and start looking towards the future isint that why Europe was onice the home for empires

To make a comment about a america also i dont think that there much left of a american future they are starting to lose money and i can see it on the new ony 5 years ago 1$ in australia got you 50 cents in america today it's
1$ per 70 cents thre losing money this is why the middle east is a target call it a old theroy but i know the only reason why they invaded iraq was for oil the only reason they havent toached it is because they people found out a little to early also look at the state of american youth it's in the shithouse there Education system by what i have seen is losing money and now they have to kick out the Space program because it's taking to much money to fund it all but i suppose all super-powers die in the end.

Europe is not dead. It is merely pining for the fjords.

Europe is so not dying, we are still going strong!

I think it is more beacause Europe is counting to much on immigrants that it dosnt realise that culture is destroyed like britain 25 years ago there wasnt a mosque in sight and today there all over the place it's because Europe is so desperate for cheap labour is dosnt see the damage it can do and on the money bases there relying to much on countries like america and china for trade they need to start relying on eachother stop taking immigrants for the sake of cheap labour and start looking towards the future isint that why Europe was onice the home for empires

What are you trying to say? They were building mosques in those 25 years, not destroying or dammaging them?
Would you regard any of the European Empires as positive? Like the Spanish conquista in South America? Or the British occupation of India?

Sorry, but the rest of the post is completely incomprehensible...

Europe is not dying...
It ´s already dead..

Europe is not dying...
It ´s already dead..

What did it die of? ;)

It depends on how you describe 'dying'. Europe will still be made up of the same political entities. But culturally, if something isn't done about the birth rates and mass immigration then we'll be indistinguishable from the Middle East or North Africa. That's alreads the way some of our northern towns have gone.

Your all class. It's "You're".

You are talking accents here. I'm talking dialects. Contrary to England/Great Britain, Germany is not a centralistic country and never has been, as a result the differences in language, religion, tradition, behaviour and culture on the whole are vast. And this is just one and the same country...
I'm pretty sure that cockney, Yorkshire and Cornish+Devonshire could count as differennt dialects.

Europe is not dying. Everyone hits rough patches, we're not any different. The whole notion is perposterous.

It's "You're".


I'm pretty sure that cockney, Yorkshire and Cornish+Devonshire could count as differennt dialects.

Europe is not dying. Everyone hits rough patches, we're not any different. The whole notion is perposterous.

*agrees*

I'm pretty sure that cockney, Yorkshire and Cornish+Devonshire could count as differennt dialects.

Europe is not dying. Everyone hits rough patches, we're not any different. The whole notion is perposterous.

Linguistically, Germany's dialects belong to 3 different language groups. I'm not talking different pronounciation, I'm talking fundamentally different languages here. One example: Southern (and official) German for "small" - "klein". Northern German dialect for the same word "luett"

I know that England has a large number of regional accents and dialects, but none of them, not even the Scottish ones, are so different from one another as are some German ones. The reasons are historical, Germany as a country only came into existence in 1871, before that it consisted of a large number of small countries, each with its own tradtitions

Linguistically, Germany's dialects belong to 3 different language groups. I'm not talking different pronounciation, I'm talking fundamentally different languages here. One example: Southern (and official) German for "small" - "klein". Northern German dialect for the same word "luett"


Rather like Most of England says 'Woodlouse', but in the far Southwest it's a 'Chiki-pig'. Cornish is, technically, a dead language.

Chiki-pig? Anyways I thought there was a Cornish revival and that it's now spoken in certain areas again.

I wanna get a Bayerisch accent to my German! I'll be going over to Munich in two years for a year so hopefully after that I'll be Bayerisch enough to make a Berliner wince!!

Depends what you mean by dying. Birth stats should be a bit higher, but culturally and politically I believe that Europe is flourishing. As for economic development, you just have to look eastwards to find it. Why would anyone think Europe was dying? If anything, it is becoming a better place to live than anywhere else.

The genius of Europe is that it is able to recreate itself - to change its view of the outside world and its view of itself. It is hard to believe that 100 years ago, France was the only major republic on the continent. Today, the republican form of government dominates and has been enshrined in the EU. 100 years ago, the plight of the lower classes was shameful; today, all nations recognize that their major resource is their population, the healthier and more educated the better. The 20th century should have taught us that Europe is ever resilient. After the slaughter of the first war, the horror and destruction of the second, and the division of the cold war, Europeans have recognized what draws them together. And if the European population benefits from immigration from other parts of the world, that only serves to make Europe stronger.

The genius of Europe is that it is able to recreate itself - to change its view of the outside world and its view of itself. It is hard to believe that 100 years ago, France was the only major republic on the continent.

That is true, but it was not as democratic as Britain was...which is a parliamentary democracy.

Chiki-pig? Anyways I thought there was a Cornish revival and that it's now spoken in certain areas again.

Just the far-southwest, as war as I'm aware (Cornwall and Devonshire).

I rememeber in primary school when we had to draw insects and lable them - when I asked the teacher how to spell 'chiki-pig' she said that there was no such thing and I was confused as anything.

That is true, but it was not as democratic as Britain was...which is a parliamentary democracy.

dammit Britain is a democracy :mad:

constitutional monarchy = democracy

it's just a different form of democracy

100 years ago we had an empire (cries)

Also, I'm going to add to this thread the thing that Brit-land has ruled the world (well, while rivaling the Portugese with regard to sea-power). Rome had a good go of it too. And we're both part of Europe.

Bush seems to be trying the same thing, but as we can see by his Iraq attempt, he fails miserably.

(Not to mention that we still have a few of our territories hanging around, if I'm not mistaken)