NationStates Jolt Archive

I ask you are Europe dying? I have seen such discussions on other forums, so you might have had this before. With birth rates as the ones we have now the population will be dropping. And you have the inevitable fact that we will be losing ground to countries such as China in the economical front. But what do you people say true or not?

Europe has been dying on a perpetual basis. We just welcome immigrants who make up for it.

Even though the birth rates are declining, I've yet to see the European country with a decline in population. So, no, no death in sight, really.

if they can make that Union they were talking about then it could live for a few more years, right?

if they can make that Union they were talking about then it could live for a few more years, right?
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LOL! But lets try and keep this a bit more serious

Even though the birth rates are declining, I've yet to see the European country with a decline in population. So, no, no death in sight, really.
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But we will, just give it time. Try to think forward…
And I do believe that Italia has a decreasing population

Europe has been dying on a perpetual basis. We just welcome immigrants who make up for it.
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And that is a really short sighted plan


And when I say dying I mean in a cultural, economic, importance (In the world) and stuff like that.

It's a misconception. Growth rates are declining. Which means they're growing more slowly. I think Gibraltar is the only place in Europe to have actually experienced a decrease in overall population from 1980 to now. Countries like Italy and Spain are experiencing falling growth rates, to the point that in the not to distant future (50+ years), they could experience a decrease in overall population, but for now, Europe is growing just like the rest of the world, just not as fast.

edit: Scratch that. I'm unable to find a complete list, but it appears that both Russia and Ukraine are experiencing population loss. Fancy that. You learn something new every day. From what I can gather, however, those are the only two nations in Europe to be doing such.

Nah. The Chinese economy is growing because it pays people virtually nothing to make cheap crap to sell to America and Europe. Eventually they will reach the limit of how much Europeans and Americans actually want to buy and they'll be stuck. Even if the Chinese economy grows at 8% per year (which wont happen) and the US's economy remains constant (which wont happen) it will take them 40 years just to catch up, and that's with a four-fold population advantage (which they wont maintain). They wont catch up in terms of GDP per capita and quality of life for 160 years.

With birth rates as the ones we have now the population will be dropping.

Birth rates in Europe are not dropping. The rate of population growth is slowing, but growth itself hasn't stoped.

Meh. We got through the black death, we'll get through this.

"On A Long Enough Time Span, The Survival Rate Of Everyone Drops To Zero"
-Tyler Durden.

So Yes! Europe, like the rest of the world, is dying.

Even though the birth rates are declining, I've yet to see the European country with a decline in population. So, no, no death in sight, really.I recall Ireland losing a hefty portion of its population to starvation and emigration during the potatoe famine, so that's one country I'd add to that list. However, something similar has yet to occur. Similar population drift is occuring in the former GDR, but they're going to the west, so Germany isn't losing population.

And that is a really short sighted plan

And when I say dying I mean in a cultural, economic, importance (In the world) and stuff like that.

Culturally nowhere dies short of the extermination of it's entire population. European culture has always been evolving, why else do you think Britain's national dish is the Chicken Tikka Masala?

Economically we are in a period of slow growth. Oh dear. Any system that requires constant growth is horrible IMO but we are still going fine. Our importance in the world fluctuates, we know this, we are o longer at the centre but one day the US will not be either. So?

Meh. We got through the black death, we'll get through this.
My thoughts exactly. Europe throughout it's history had several drops in population. Like the 17th century. When religiouse wars where fought on almost the entire continent in one way or the other.

I recall Ireland losing a hefty portion of its population to starvation and emigration during the potatoe famine, so that's one country I'd add to that list. However, something similar has yet to occur. Similar population drift is occuring in the former GDR, but they're going to the west, so Germany isn't losing population.

Things like famine and war and disease are usually discounted when you discuss population loss, as they are aberrations and not the norm. The comparison between birth rates and death rates are what are commonly discussed.

As for Ireland;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Irishpopulation.png

Looks like they did experience population loss, but have since recovered.

Is Europe dying? No.

Will it be a lot less pertinent unless it drafts a workable, federal Constitution? Yes.

I recall Ireland losing a hefty portion of its population to starvation and emigration during the potatoe famine, so that's one country I'd add to that list. However, something similar has yet to occur. Similar population drift is occuring in the former GDR, but they're going to the west, so Germany isn't losing population.


Would have to point out the Irish Famine was quite a while ago now and
population of Ireland as a whole is busily increasing although currently appx 2 million people
off what it was before the famine.

Here's an article from 2000 talking about Russian population decline:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/988723.stm

Nah. The Chinese economy is growing because it pays people virtually nothing to make cheap crap to sell to America and Europe. Eventually they will reach the limit of how much Europeans and Americans actually want to buy and they'll be stuck. Even if the Chinese economy grows at 8% per year (which wont happen) and the US's economy remains constant (which wont happen) it will take them 40 years just to catch up, and that's with a four-fold population advantage (which they wont maintain). They wont catch up in terms of GDP per capita and quality of life for 160 years.


China is only beginning to stir and wouldn't have to grow by any
great percentage year on year to have a massive impact on the world.
The American economy on the other hand is mostly fictitious as it is
being jointly propped up by oil sales being denominated in dollars and
by, oh my , china.

Things like famine and war and disease are usually discounted when you discuss population loss, as they are aberrations and not the norm. The comparison between birth rates and death rates are what are commonly discussed.

As for Ireland;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Irishpopulation.png

Looks like they did experience population loss, but have since recovered.

Um.... the famine was in 1847 onwards till about 1852.
And Irelands population at that time declined from an estimated 10 million to a little over 3 million, both through starvation and immigration.

Edit : Read up here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Potato_Famine_%281845-1849%29)

Um.... the famine was in 1847 onwards till about 1852.
And Irelands population at that time declined from an estimated 10 million to a little over 3 million, both through starvation and immigration.

It seemed to me that the person I responded to was talking about something recent. I may have been mistaken.

It's too complicated a question to be answered as a simple yes or no.

Population- Europe's indigenous population is not breeding fast enough to replace it's numbers, but the shortfall in population is being made up for through immigration. In short, there is no danger of humans becomming extinct from Europe.

Culture- Due to demographic shifts caused by low birthrate among native Europeans and immigration from Arabia and Africa, and taking into account Europe's bad track record with forcing integration of immigrants into European culture I think European culture is dying.

Economics- Who knows? With the exception of UK, Europe's big economies are suffering. Germany and France have double digit unemployment and virtually no economic growth, but UK and the growing economies of the former Eastern bloc countries are doing well.

It seemed to me that the person I responded to was talking about something recent. I may have been mistaken.Yah, it would be hard to explain the rumor that there's more Irish in NYC than in Ireland otherwise.
Kinda weird though... my home city has roughly the same population as the Green Island.

Culture- Due to demographic shifts caused by low birthrate among native Europeans and immigration from Arabia and Africa, and taking into account Europe's bad track record with forcing integration of immigrants into European culture I think European culture is dying.

What is 'european culture'?

ANS- A myth. All culture evolves. Or it dies. Cultural stagnation was a major contributor to the destruction of the Roman Empire. At this time Europe is recieving large numbers of immigrants, the majority of whom become full and good members of society. Over the years they influence our culture as 'mainstream' adopts the aspects they like of immigrant culture. So Britain now has a huge number of Chinese, Thai, Indian and other eastern restaurants/takeaways because it turns out we like curry.

Yah, it would be hard to explain the rumor that there's more Irish in NYC than in Ireland otherwise.
Kinda weird though... my home city has roughly the same population as the Green Island.

Emerald Isle. Sounds so much more mysterious :p

Emerald Isle. Sounds so much more mysterious :pThat's the word I was looking for! It's literally Green Isle in German, and I must admit "Grüne Insel" sounds better than "Smaragd Insel".

What is 'european culture'?

ANS- A myth. All culture evolves. Or it dies. Cultural stagnation was a major contributor to the destruction of the Roman Empire. At this time Europe is recieving large numbers of immigrants, the majority of whom become full and good members of society. Over the years they influence our culture as 'mainstream' adopts the aspects they like of immigrant culture. So Britain now has a huge number of Chinese, Thai, Indian and other eastern restaurants/takeaways because it turns out we like curry.
I'm just saying that I think culture in Europe will become almost indistinguishible from that of N. Africa and Arabia.

I'm giving my opinion of what will happen. I'm not claiming to be able to see the future.

Yah, it would be hard to explain the rumor that there's more Irish in NYC than in Ireland otherwise.
Kinda weird though... my home city has roughly the same population as the Green Island.

Well, you may imagine that such an event has massive effects on the psyche and traditions of a country.
As a result, a large number of Irish still will immigrate once they come to a certain age

Um.... the famine was in 1847 onwards till about 1852.
And Irelands population at that time declined from an estimated 10 million to a little over 3 million, both through starvation and immigration.

Edit : Read up here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Potato_Famine_%281845-1849%29)
The CIA World Factbook reckons that as of July 2005 the population of Ireland is roughly 4 million, add Northern Ireland to that (as they would have been counted as one entity for the populations in and around the famine) and it rises to about 5.6 million. Still just over half of what it was in the early to mid 1800s.

I'm just saying that I think culture in Europe will become almost indistinguishible from that of N. Africa and Arabia.

I'm giving my opinion of what will happen. I'm not claiming to be able to see the future.
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I think history will prove you right, to me this is a bad thing. I have no love for the multicultural society.

Population- Europe's indigenous population is not breeding fast enough to replace it's numbers, but the shortfall in population is being made up for through immigration. In short, there is no danger of humans becomming extinct from Europe.
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How nice, that humans are not going to be extinct in Europe. I was really scared there a moment. ^^
But some of these things scare me, I mean if there had been a minority of ethnic Norwegians in Norway it would not have been Norway. And to me it just sounds wrong to solve a population problem by importing problem, but that’s me. Does any one know if this is true: that 30% of all the children in France is of non western origin?

I'm just saying that I think culture in Europe will become almost indistinguishible from that of N. Africa and Arabia.

I'm giving my opinion of what will happen. I'm not claiming to be able to see the future.

*Shudder*, what a horrible idea. In that case, return to the medieval ages is at hand for Europe, and i'd hate to see that. :mad:

I'm just saying that I think culture in Europe will become almost indistinguishible from that of N. Africa and Arabia.

I'm giving my opinion of what will happen. I'm not claiming to be able to see the future.
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I think history will prove you right, to me this is a bad thing. I have no love for the multicultural society.

Population- Europe's indigenous population is not breeding fast enough to replace it's numbers, but the shortfall in population is being made up for through immigration. In short, there is no danger of humans becomming extinct from Europe.
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How nice, that humans are not going to be extinct in Europe. I was really scared there a moment. ^^
But some of these things scare me, I mean if there had been a minority of ethnic Norwegians in Norway it would not have been Norway. And to me it just sounds wrong to solve a population problem by importing problem, but that’s me. Does any one know if this is true: that 30% of all the children in France is of non western origin?

First of, I live in a multicultural society and love it.

Second, what do you suggest? Compulsive breeding of indigenous people?

First: How is Ireland a multicultural society?
Second: there are a lot of things one can do, I might cost more but in the end it will be better. The government could encourage people to get children, by giving tax reduction for having many children, having kinder gardens available for the children, Give more benefits to families. I could go on but I trust you got my point.

The CIA World Factbook reckons that as of July 2005 the population of Ireland is roughly 4 million, add Northern Ireland to that (as they would have been counted as one entity for the populations in and around the famine) and it rises to about 5.6 million. Still just over half of what it was in the early to mid 1800s.

Also, the population of Germany is about 80 million right now, compared to 79 million during World War II. Not exactly what you might call dramatic growth rates.

First: How is Ireland a multicultural society?
Second: there are a lot of things one can do, I might cost more but in the end it will be better. The government could encourage people to get children, by giving tax reduction for having many children, having kinder gardens available for the children, Give more benefits to families. I could go on but I trust you got my point.

Have you been to Dublin recently?

Tax reductions and kinder gardens have been tried in a number of countries, without a significant increase in new babies.

I, personally don't want to have kids. So?

First: How is Ireland a multicultural society?
Second: there are a lot of things one can do, I might cost more but in the end it will be better. The government could encourage people to get children, by giving tax reduction for having many children, having kinder gardens available for the children, Give more benefits to families. I could go on but I trust you got my point.

In 2000 non-nationals made up 10% of the patients in maternity wards in Dublin

Also, the population of Germany is about 80 million right now, compared to 79 million during World War II. Not exactly what you might call dramatic growth rates.
May be true... but would be interested to know where the during WW2 stats came from. Don't forget, if the WW2 stat is from the Nazi regime, the Nazis may have considered many areas which are not today's Germany as part of Germany (especially Austria, Sudetenland of Czech Republik etc).

Swedish population has certainly gone up over the last 50 years.

May be true... but would be interested to know where the during WW2 stats came from. Don't forget, if the WW2 stat is from the Nazi regime, the Nazis may have considered many areas which are not today's Germany as part of Germany (especially Austria, Sudetenland of Czech Republik etc).

Swedish population has certainly gone up over the last 50 years.

Plus, if this number was reported DURING WW II it doesn't take into account the heavy casualties until the end of the war. So, by the end of WW II we might be looking at a far lower number

Swedish population has certainly gone up over the last 50 years.

No surprise there, what is it 1million immigrants that has moved to Sweden?
And we all see how well that is working...

Have you been to Dublin recently?

No thats why i asked you...

Tax reductions and kinder gardens have been tried in a number of countries, without a significant increase in new babies.

I love the Internet everybody knows everything, so could you please give me some information where this has been done on a national level? I know that Italia is planing to do such things since I had about it at school this year, Iceland to by the way.

Also, the population of Germany is about 80 million right now, compared to 79 million during World War II. Not exactly what you might call dramatic growth rates.

the population in Germany at the moment is 82,468,000 and Germany did lose at lot of men during the ww2.

No surprise there, what is it 1million immigrants that has moved to Sweden?
And we all see how well that is working...


Please enlighten me.

Of course, in recent times, immigration is a very significant factor. But, the population would have increased on WW2 figures anywhere regardless of this (but of course, not as much!). If you look to Finland, her population has increased since WW2 - Finland has had very limited incoming immigration and actually even had substantial emigration (often towards Sweden) in the 1950s and 1960s. I believe the Norwegians and Danes have seen population increases as well. It is of course true that none of these increases have been to the same degree as the increases in many other parts of the world and that the birth rate among Swedes (and presumably other Norden) is low compared to many world regions.

First of, I live in a multicultural society and love it.

Second, what do you suggest? Compulsive breeding of indigenous people?
1) Ok

2) No, massive government sponsored Eugenic cloning program

For me to move to Sweden... there's an IKEA in New Haven, CT. :D

Please enlighten me.

Of course, but it will not be in English. It will be in Norwegian and Danish. Sorry about that I hope at least you understand it.


http://dansk-svensk.blogspot.com/
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article1077398.ece
http://www.liberator.dk/debatforum/display_message.asp?mid=42334

But lets not talk about how miserable the Swedish government has failed in integration and poorly planed immigration. I will only win the discussion any way.

2) No, massive government sponsored Eugenic cloning program

Or the goverment could encurage people to have children but we can use that as plan B.

Actually, according to the Solow-Swan Model, lower population growth is a good thing, because we'll need less money to sustain the same amount of capital (as in machines) per head...

Sterilise everyone! :D

Socially/Morally-Yes
Economically-No
Militarily-No

Europe dying?

We'll see about that in the NS-post when the Europeans wake up in a few hours. Guess that it is between 5.25am (Rumania) and 3.25am (UK) there, noth forgetting the more east regions like European Russia (till 200 miles east of Moscow, the archetecture, history and common feeling of the citizens is European)...

Socially/Morally-Yes

I totaly agree

I totaly agree

So just because we dont have the same old fashioned morals as you we're dying socially? Whatever that means.

The Europe we all know and love will be gone before the end of this century, it will be populated mostly by middle easterners and africans.
This is the original posters point alot of people seem to have missed, yes there will be people in Europe, no they wont be european, and living in Europe doesnt make them that either.

So just because we dont have the same old fashioned morals as you we're dying socially? Whatever that means.

No that’s not what I am saying, but society is changing. And it could be discussed if it is to the better. And how do yo define old fashioned morals?

The Europe we all know and love will be gone before the end of this century, it will be populated mostly by middle easterners and africans.

Well if that happens, then there would no longer be a Europe.

clicky (http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PRB/Educators/Human_Population/Population_Growth/Population_Growth.htm)
This site is quite good to give stats on population if anyone is interested.

Well if that happens, then there would no longer be a Europe.

Just because the people be different doesn't mean that the whole continent is going to sink into the ocean.
There will be a Europe, and it will be different. That's called development...

European Culture has been dying for the last 2500 years now, so what?

"Europe" is growing, by taking in the eastern European countries we are curbing the pensions bomb that is looming. Eventually, because of our aging populations we will ahve to take in Turkey and possibly even Russia.

The Europe we all know and love will be gone before the end of this century, it will be populated mostly by middle easterners and africans.
This is the original posters point alot of people seem to have missed, yes there will be people in Europe, no they wont be european, and living in Europe doesnt make them that either.You know, the people that live in Europe right now are descendants of people that didn't live in Europe to begin with. The discussion is moot then, since there is no such thing as a European culture.

"Europe" is growing, by taking in the eastern European countries we are curbing the pensions bomb that is looming. Eventually, because of our aging populations we will ahve to take in Turkey and possibly even Russia.The EU is not going to take in Russia. No matter what, it's just not gonna happen.

The EU is not going to take in Russia. No matter what, it's just not gonna happen.

50 years from now, who can say?
If we do take on Turkey, why should we exclude Russia? However, I somehow doubt that Russia will be too interested in joining in the next few decades, anyway.

The EU is not going to take in Russia. No matter what, it's just not gonna happen.

Why not? Russia is a European country at least, More then Turkey any way.

European Culture has been dying for the last 2500 years now, so what?

Oh do explain

Just because the people be different doesn't mean that the whole continent is going to sink into the ocean.

If the native population is a minority, then Europe is no longer Europe in my eyes. But I doubt it will go so far.

European Culture has been dying for the last 2500 years now, so what?

Lol, that's true to a certain extent.

But you've got to ask yourself, is having constant population growth a good thing? Normally I'd say no, because it will eventually lead to overcrowding and such, but with the pensions crisis we have now people seem to have this notion that a sudden rise in population growth in young people will help. Whether this will actually help in the long-term (next 2 centuries) remains to be seen.

If the native population is a minority, then Europe is no longer Europe in my eyes. But I doubt it will go so far.

What is the native population of Europe anyway? How do you determine who is a native and who isn't? Skin colour? Language? Place of birth?

50 years from now, who can say?
If we do take on Turkey, why should we exclude Russia? However, I somehow doubt that Russia will be too interested in joining in the next few decades, anyway.Because that's a fundamental statement of the EU. Russia is too big and too Asian.

European Culture has been dying for the last 2500 years now, so what?

Yeah, it really went downhill when the romans and then the christians showed up

Because that's a fundamental statement of the EU. Russia is too big and too Asian.

I didn't know the EU had any set rules as to the size of it's member countries?
About the parts that are not geographically European, if we do take on Turkey (and I believe this is being seriously discussed now), what grounds do we have to reject Russia (potentially)? Only a very small part of Turkey belongs to Europe geographically...

Because that's a fundamental statement of the EU. Russia is too big and too Asian.
I haven't seen that part of the EU basic laws. :rolleyes:

Oh, the indigenous europeans will become a minority, no doubt about it. The african and middle eastern groups in Europe grow larger for every day that goes by, and the indigenous europeans suffer from population decline. It says itself that groups with very high fertility will outgrow groups with low fertility sooner or later.

I didn't know the EU had any set rules as to the size of it's member countries?
About the parts that are not geographically European, if we do take on Turkey (and I believe this is being seriously discussed now), what grounds do we have to reject Russia (potentially)? Only a very small part of Turkey belongs to Europe geographically...The reasoning was that it was acceptable for Turkey, since Turkey didn't really have such a large population and didn't exactly spread to the pacific. I heard it said by some heads of state say that Europe is the border and Turkey is an iffy case, but Russia is out of question. Russia has too much of its own Identity to become a member of the EU.

I haven't seen that part of the EU basic laws. :rolleyes:Its customary law, meaning its unwritten.

Its customary law, meaning its unwritten.
Not that I think that we will sometime join the EU, but in theory it is a possibility.

Not that I think that we will sometime join the EU, but in theory it is a possibility.It isn't. The EU has drawn its borders and Russia can be a partner, but not a member.

Things like famine and war and disease are usually discounted when you discuss population loss, as they are aberrations and not the norm. The comparison between birth rates and death rates are what are commonly discussed.

As for Ireland;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Irishpopulation.png

Looks like they did experience population loss, but have since recovered.

Is there one for Scotland ?

If there is please post it up as I couldn't find one myself, thanks in advance ;)

I ask you are Europe dying? I have seen such discussions on other forums, so you might have had this before. With birth rates as the ones we have now the population will be dropping. And you have the inevitable fact that we will be losing ground to countries such as China in the economical front. But what do you people say true or not?

England will be gone because the government use immigration as an answer to falling birth rates (who cares if the population gets a little smaller?). The country will "die" because the government preaches multiculturalism "diversity diversity diversity", which isn't too bad for the French who seem to have a very strong and clear national pride which future immigrants will adopt, but for places like England it just becomes a free for all cess pit.

Even though the birth rates are declining, I've yet to see the European country with a decline in population. So, no, no death in sight, really.

The European country??? What do you mean by that?

Or a European country?

It isn't. The EU has drawn its borders and Russia can be a partner, but not a member.
OK, OK... Russia won't be a member of the EU. Becoming Northern China is more likely.

edit: Scratch that. I'm unable to find a complete list, but it appears that both Russia and Ukraine are experiencing population loss. Fancy that. You learn something new every day. From what I can gather, however, those are the only two nations in Europe to be doing such.

A population loss because the Russians move to the West. They have some harsh poverty.

The European country??? What do you mean by that?

Or a European country?

Actually I would consider saying "the european country" acceptable in the same way as "I've yet to see the day when......."

why else do you think Britain's national dish is the Chicken Tikka Masala?

Haha. . .!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

OK, OK... Russia won't be a member of the EU. Becoming Northern China is more likely.Glad you agree. It's not that I don't like Russia, but I don't think that there is really any room for it in the EU. That's what the reasoning behind the whole arguement is.

What is the native population of Europe anyway? How do you determine who is a native and who isn't? Skin colour? Language? Place of birth?

That statement is so fucking stupid. If you can’t figure out that one I pity you. But on the bright side you are the poster child for being political correct.

Because that's a fundamental statement of the EU. Russia is too big and too Asian.

Then Turkey should never become a member, Russia is a bigger part of Europe then Turkey.

Oh, the indigenous europeans will become a minority, no doubt about it. The african and middle eastern groups in Europe grow larger for every day that goes by, and the indigenous europeans suffer from population decline. It says itself that groups with very high fertility will outgrow groups with low fertility sooner or later.

I kind of doubt it will get that bad. At least I do not hope it will not go that far.

A population loss because the Russians move to the West. They have some harsh poverty.
A counterfactual statement. The immigration of the Russians to the West is easily offset by the coming of immgrants from Caucasian counties and Central Asia. The Russian population loss is caused by vodka, clinical depression, and kitchen knives.

Then Turkey should never become a member, Russia is a bigger part of Europe then Turkey.

I like you missed the other reasons that I posted after that.

That statement is so fucking stupid. If you can’t figure out that one I pity you. But on the bright side you are the poster child for being political correct.


If it so obvious to you why dont you try answering it?

That statement is so fucking stupid. If you can’t figure out that one I pity you. But on the bright side you are the poster child for being political correct.


That's the best euphemism for "I don't have a clue, just a general idea" that I ever heard :D

I like you missed the other reasons that I posted after that.

Sorry about that, I should read trough all the post befor posting. And I do to a certain extent agree. But then Turkey should not become a member. There culture is nothing like yours.

If it so obvious to you why dont you try answering it?

Ok I can try, but some people just refuse to learn. I will be taking my country as an example. The native population consist of people of Germanic decent. You will be hard pressed to find a native Norwegian who does not have blue eyes or blond hair. I think we all know how a native looks. I mean is a black person a nativ European? Or a Asian? of course not, white is the is the colour of the native European.

Ok I can try, but some people just refuse to learn. I will be taking my country as an example. The native population consist of people of Germanic decent. You will be hard pressed to find a native Norwegian who does not have blue eyes or blond hair. I think we all know how a native looks. I mean is a black person a nativ European? Or a Asian? of course not, white is the is the colour of the native European.

native

• noun 1 a person born in a specified place. 2 a local inhabitant

Source : Oxford English Dictionary (http://askoxford.com)

So, many of my friends were born in Germany (as was I), some to parents who were born and grew up in Europe, some to parents who grew up in other parts of the world. Some of my friends emmigrated to other countries and continents and dropped their original nationality, other married people of different nationalities coming from different continents.

What basis do you use to determine who is "native" and who isn't?
Oh, and a side note : The idea that all Norwegians are blond and blue-eyed is just as wrong as the idea that all Irish have red hair. ;)

Sorry about that, I should read trough all the post befor posting. And I do to a certain extent agree. But then Turkey should not become a member. There culture is nothing like yours. Turkey isn't it's own continental identity the way Russia is. Russia is almost it's own "Union" since it is a Federation. Turkish "culture" is actually quite similar to that of the Greeks in some respects. They hate eachother, but they also have a lot in common.

Ok I can try, but some people just refuse to learn. I will be taking my country as an example. The native population consist of people of Germanic decent. You will be hard pressed to find a native Norwegian who does not have blue eyes or blond hair. I think we all know how a native looks. I mean is a black person a nativ European? Or a Asian? of course not, white is the is the colour of the native European.Um... we don't know what the natural color of Europeans is, since we don't really know where the first humans came from. Because theoritically, we aren't native European. We just happened to descend from the ones that were the first to settle/last to beat up the natives and take their land.

Turkey isn't it's own continental identity the way Russia is. Russia is almost it's own "Union" since it is a Federation. Turkish "culture" is actually quite similar to that of the Greeks in some respects. They hate eachother, but they also have a lot in common.

True I been both to Greece and Turkye, but I would not say that to the Greeks. But there is a big diffrence in turkish culture between the east part and vest part. Witch makes Turkey more alien then Russia.

The idea that all Norwegians are blond and blue-eyed is just as wrong as the idea that all Irish have red hair.

Have you been to Norway? And I did not say all of them, I said most of them witch is true. At least regarding that people have blue eyes. And blond is the most common hair colour in Norway. My entire family has blond hair and most of my friends have it to. And most Irish do have red hair, do they not?

Have you been to Norway? And I did not say all of them, I said most of them witch is true. At least regarding that people have blue eyes. And blond is the most common hair colour in Norway. My entire family has blond hair and most of my friends have it to. And most Irish do have red do they not?

I've never been to Norway, but I work with a team of 90 Norwegians. There are more blondes in that group than there would be if the group was Spanish, that's right. But there would be no way of telling if they are from, say Germany or France, either.

No, only 10% of Irish are red haired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair) , there are in fact more people here with another very interesting phenotype, black hair and blue or green eyes.

True I been both to Greece and Turkye, but I would not say that to the Greeks. But there is a big diffrence in turkish culture between the east part and vest part. Witch makes Turkey more alien then Russia. I've actually said similar stuff to a Greek friend of mine. His reaction was always hilarious. :D But there are some very similar values and cultural aspects in the Balkans countries that were owned by the Turks and Turkish culture itself. And we admitted Slovenia...

I've actually said similar stuff to a Greek friend of mine. His reaction was always hilarious. :D But there are some very similar values and cultural aspects in the Balkans countries that were owned by the Turks and Turkish culture itself. And we admitted Slovenia...

And I don't think that, once all requirements are met, the EU would have a problem admitting Albania, Serbia and Montenegro either, despite their Muslim population and different cultures.

And I don't think that, once all requirements are met, the EU would have a problem admitting Albania, Serbia and Montenegro either, despite their Muslim population and different cultures.I'm pretty sure some of the more conservative politicians will argue along the lines that we didn't let Turkey in because they're muslim, so we shouldn't allow the Albanians...

I've never been to Norway, but I work with a team of 90 Norwegians. There are more blondes in that group than there would be if the group was Spanish, that's right. But there would be no way of telling if they are from, say Germany or France, either.

Well there are a lot of people in France and Germany that is blond, but the Nordic countrys are owning in prosent when it comes to blond hair. Just look her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond_hair

The Key word is: to over 50% in the Nordic.

Well there are a lot of people in France and Germany that is blond, but the Nordic countrys are owning in prosent when it comes to blond hair. Just look her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond_hair

The Key word is: to over 50% in the Nordic.

This is kind of off topic but is the gene for blonde hair becoming extinct? I thought i read this somewhere

I've actually said similar stuff to a Greek friend of mine. His reaction was always hilarious. But there are some very similar values and cultural aspects in the Balkans countries that were owned by the Turks and Turkish culture itself. And we admitted Slovenia...

Yhea I have notice that a lot of greek people simpley hate turks, most of the time it has no reason then history.

But the topic is Europe dying has long since given away for other topic it seems...

This is kind of off topic but is the gene for blonde hair becoming extinct? I thought i read this somewhere

I doubt it, maybe trough interbreeding but even then I doubt it.

I doubt it, maybe trough interbreeding but even then I doubt it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2284783.stm

I knew i read it somewhere

The Key word is: to over 50% in the Nordic.
Could you provide some links..? I'm rather sceptic about that, but I really don't want to go out and make an empirical study... I would be most eager to see a (semi)scientific study, if possible.

Could you provide some links..? I'm rather sceptic about that, but I really don't want to go out and make an empirical study... I would be most eager to see a (semi)scientific study, if possible.

Do you understand Norwegian? If so I could get you a report that says that it is the most commen hair colour in Norway at least. But I did provide a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond_hair

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2284783.stm

They think so, It will never happen or so I hope. I mean Blond girls are the most hot girls there is.

They think so, It will never happen or so I hope. I mean Blond girls are the most hot girls there is.Maybe, but you can dye hair if you need a blonde.

Do you understand Norwegian? If so I could get you a report that says that it is the most commen hair colour in Norway at least. But I did provide a link.

Yeah, I can understand Norwegian just fine. Please provide that link, cos that Wikipedia one is just... well crap, really.

"Fair hair is characteristic of the peoples of Northern Europe, particularly Scandinavia (very pale hair is often referred to as Nordic blond.). It is genetically associated with paler eye-colour (blue and green) and pale (sometimes freckled) skin tone."

Ah-ha, yeah...

Edit: And it's not like I'm trying to show you're wrong or anything. I'm a Scandinavian (well, Fennoscandian to be precise) AND blonde myself, but 50% blondes is NOT what I see when I go out... that's why I'm interested...
Certainly not those 'platinum blonde' types... more like shades of ... ...gray really.

Edit: And it's not like I'm trying to show you're wrong or anything. I'm a Scandinavian (well, Fennoscandian to be precise) AND blonde myself, but 50% blondes is NOT what I see when I go out... that's why I'm interested...

yeah but there are diffrent shades of blond, if we had just counted 'platinum blonde' there would have been very few blondes.
And I tought I could find one as I know that it is true, but I keep on Searching. I wil get back to you.

And when we are at it I asked you Cabra West about proving that some countries had in fact given benefits to people for having children. So could you find such a thing?

I ask you are Europe dying? I have seen such discussions on other forums, so you might have had this before. With birth rates as the ones we have now the population will be dropping. And you have the inevitable fact that we will be losing ground to countries such as China in the economical front. But what do you people say true or not?

Firstly, i see, of course, that you mean "birth rates amongst what i identify as the traditional ethnic grouping". Few problems with that though, isn't there? I mean, how far back do you go to identify the ethnic group in question? There were Moors in Southern France 1400 years ago...does that Arabs or Berbers are or are not the traditional ethnic grouping?

Or you could look at the UK, which is, of course, made up entirely of immigrants...well, unless there are any descendants of the prehistoric tribe called "The Beaker People" still hanging round, which i pretty much doubt. So you don't mean THOSE natives, do you? You mean the natives who came after - in Scandinavias case, the nordic types who came in wave upon wave from the Asian hinterlands sometime in the late prehistoric/early classical era.

So, basically, your definition of European - and indeed, national - identity seems to be "immigrants after x point, but before y point". Now, can you see the fallaciousness of this, or is it just me?

And then, of course, there's the corrollary to your argument, which is "it is based around 'present trends' continuing". Who knows if present trends will continue? Very very often, extrapolating present trends is a nonsense. For example, if the growth ratio shown in the past 25 years continues, by 2050, one third of the worlds population will be Elvis impersonators.

And - you know - being swamped by "non Europeans" or not being able to go to the shops without a gimp singing me "Love Me Tender?" - i know which *i* feel is the greater threat, no competition really.

Firstly, i see, of course, that you mean "birth rates amongst what i identify as the traditional ethnic grouping". Few problems with that though, isn't there? I mean, how far back do you go to identify the ethnic group in question? There were Moors in Southern France 1400 years ago...does that Arabs or Berbers are or are not the traditional ethnic grouping?

I did later say the white population of Europe... so what is your point?

And - you know - being swamped by "non Europeans" or not being able to go to the shops without a gimp singing me "Love Me Tender?" - i know which *i* feel is the greater threat, no competition really.

Yeah that would be hell indeed, but as I have said before if Europe native population is replaced it would no longer be Europe. If you don’t see that as a problem then that is your purgative.


And then, of course, there's the corrollary to your argument, which is "it is based around 'present trends' continuing". Who knows if present trends will continue? Very very often, extrapolating present trends is a nonsense. For example, if the growth ratio shown in the past 25 years continues, by 2050, one third of the worlds population will be Elvis impersonators.

Yeah one could hope. But one third of the world that would have been fun.

Perhaps, at some point of this discussion, the definition of 'native European' would have been useful then... People seem to be as uncertaint about that as I am about the definition of 'blonde'

[QUOTE=Magnificent Germania]I did later say the white population of Europe... so what is your point?



my point is made underneath:- "So, basically, your definition of European - and indeed, national - identity seems to be "immigrants after x point, but before y point". Now, can you see the fallaciousness of this, or is it just me?"

Listen, culture evolves. European Culture is not some monolothic thing. It's different than it was 100 years ago. It's MUCH different than it was 1000 years ago. And it's practically unrecognisable from what it was when your ancestors hoved into view, occupying the Scandinavian Basin. Your definition of Europe = "set in stone, as it was at this point, but not before, and not after". Which is, basically, the cornerstone of all conservative beliefs (i'm assuming you are conservative by nature here, it seems that way) - that the past was a roseate glory, and that we must try to preserve that past, and any change to that past means, basically, the old ways are gone forever.

The old ways are gone forever every decade. Europe has a constantly changing, evolving culture, which owes as much to the east as the west, and to the mediterranean - both sides of, south and north - as it does to the baltic or the mittle-european nations. This is a good thing. I enjoy it. I don't want to live in some static culture where the "old values" go permanently unchallenged. Because if you removed - say - the now growing influence of immigrants from the Middle East, from North Africa, from Southern Africa, from Asia etc etc...you wouldn't be left with Europe. You'd be left with the "EURO HERITAGE THEME PARK". Not a continent that was alive, but one that was a hideous parody of life, forever preserved in amber.

Just me, but i'd prefer a few brown skins around me to that...

People seem to be as uncertaint about that as I am about the definition of 'blonde'

What have you never seen any one with Dark-blond hair?

Perhaps, at some point of this discussion, the definition of 'native European' would have been useful then...

Basically you got to be white

my point is made underneath:- "So, basically, your definition of European - and indeed, national - identity seems to be "immigrants after x point, but before y point". Now, can you see the fallaciousness of this, or is it just me?"

Yeah but, Norway for instant has had very little immigration before 1970 so for us it’s not really a hard concept. But I see your point that’s why I say you have to be white to be a native European.

The old ways are gone forever every decade. Europe has a constantly changing, evolving culture, which owes as much to the east as the west, and to the mediterranean - both sides of, south and north - as it does to the baltic or the mittle-european nations. This is a good thing. I enjoy it. I don't want to live in some static culture where the "old values" go permanently unchallenged. Because if you removed - say - the now growing influence of immigrants from the Middle East, from North Africa, from Southern Africa, from Asia etc etc...you wouldn't be left with Europe. You'd be left with the "EURO HERITAGE THEME PARK". Not a continent that was alive, but one that was a hideous parody of life, forever preserved in amber.

I strongly disagree; we have been evolving long before immigration begun and without the influence of other parties. Sure we pick up a few things her and there, but to say that a society will not evolve if it does not get impulses from the outside is simply wrong. I think we have conflicting ideas about preserving the past, for me its good and you almost give the impression that it is all bad.

EURO HERITAGE THEME PARK

I like the sound of that.

I strongly disagree; we have been evolving long before immigration begun and without the influence of other parties. Sure we pick up a few things her and there, but to say that a society will not evolve if it does not get impulses from the outside is simply wrong. I think we have conflicting ideas about preserving the past, for me its good and you almost give the impression that it is all bad.

HAH. We have been evolving long before immigration begun and without the influence of other parties? YOU ARE THE DESCENDANT OF IMMIGRANTS. I AM. YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT ENTIRELY. The European landmass was BUILT upon wave on wave of immigration. Some of them - Random examples: The Huns, The Magyars - were not what you would - at the time - have called "pleasant", in fact, they were far less pleasant and civilized and cultured than the vast vast vast majority of our current immigrants. The Magyars only settled in Hungary about 1500 years ago. Now...are they European? If so, you are basically setting the time limit i talked about. "Europe only equals this point to this point". So, basically...immigration to Europe was fine when it was 1500 years ago and Indo-European races (what the Nazis fallaciously dubbed as "Aryans") but not fine 1500 years later. Thats what you are saying. Thats why i am pointing it out. You want to preserve ONE aspect of the past, ONE point. You aren't looking at the broad sweep of things, which is this: THINGS CHANGE.

And as for the whole "societies evolve without outside influence", i suggest you read a bit more deeply into history, anthropology and the like, because you are talking absolute, errant nonsense. Try "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond for starters. And ask yourself - did the Aborigines in Australia live in a prehistoric state until the arrival of the white man because they were racially inferior? Stupid?

Or was it more because...they only had Aborigine culture to interact with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs_and_Steel

Yeah it looks like a good book

Thats why i am pointing it out. You want to preserve ONE aspect of the past, ONE point. You aren't looking at the broad sweep of things, which is this: THINGS CHANGE.

NO really do things change, what a surprise. This has ruined my look open the world. ^^

But truly what is your point, that the immigrants that are coming today are just as much European as me? Or that there is no such thing as European? Or that we are all immigrates, well that was a long time ago. And today they look like us. As far as I know.

[/QUOTE]Or was it more because...they only had Aborigine culture to interact with?[QUOTE]

Before the Viking age we had almost no contact with the rest of the world. And we still plundered most of Europe. We where very isolated so I must say that I agree to a certain point. But had we not had any contact with other cultures we would have never gotten past that point. Ok you where right and I was wrong. but still with all the cultures we have in Europe we could evolve from that and take some from her and there. So what is your dream one big melting pot called Earth?

Europe is slowly becoming New Saudi Arabia. Just like the Southern US is becoming an extention of Mexico. With falling growth and a base education level above the poor jobs, they need more young (poor) workers to work the factories and fields, their natural supply is outpaced by demand which causes immigration from russia, middle east, and northern africa to fill these unskilled jobs. That is the only reason why there is no population loss.


In anyways the Muslims are finishing their conquest. Not militarily this time, Muslims dont integrate just like the mexicans dont integrate, it will always lead to conflict, in both cases by the time that starts the native populations will be the minority.

Before the Viking age we had almost no contact with the rest of the world. And we still plundered most of Europe. We where very isolated so I must say that I agree to a certain point. But had we not had any contact with other cultures we would have never gotten past that point. Ok you where right and I was wrong. but still with all the cultures we have in Europe we could evolve from that and take some from her and there. So what is your dream one big melting pot called Earth?

Well, why would you only want to take impulses from Europeans? Do you think the rest of the world has nothing to offer?
Have you ever been to a Chinese restaurant? Have you ever had a cup of coffee, or tea? Do you use the 0 when doing mathematical calculations? Do you own an umbrella?
Yes? Funny... these are all thing brought to Europe by immigrants and/or invaders. From all over the world. I wouldn't want to miss it, do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs_and_Steel

Yeah it looks like a good book



NO really do things change, what a surprise. This has ruined my look open the world. ^^

But truly what is your point, that the immigrants that are coming today are just as much European as me? Or that there is no such thing as European? Or that we are all immigrates, well that was a long time ago. And today they look like us. As far as I know.

Or was it more because...they only had Aborigine culture to interact with?

Before the Viking age we had almost no contact with the rest of the world. And we still plundered most of Europe. We where very isolated so I must say that I agree to a certain point. But had we not had any contact with other cultures we would have never gotten past that point. Ok you where right and I was wrong. but still with all the cultures we have in Europe we could evolve from that and take some from her and there. So what is your dream one big melting pot called Earth?

Not quite as hippy-dippy-trippy-shitty as that, thank you. The point about multi-cultural society is that there always remains a host society. Idiots on the left (yes, i put myself on the left, but i am well aware we have idiots there just as the right has intelligent people) seem to believe that multi-culturalism = "lets allow in lots of mono-cultures to exist side by side" - so you have the issue in Britain at the moment of Faith schools, where all the Muslims go to one school, all the Catholics go to another, all the Protestants etc etc etc. It's stupidity, rank stupidity. Multi-Culturalism means you have a single identity - say "British" - which is always, constantly, evolving due to changes, external and internal, subtle and blatantly obvious. The poster earlier made a point about Chicken Tikka Massala being Britains national dish. It isn't *quite* yet, but it is a perfect example of what i mean. Because it is a British dish. It was invented in Birmingham in the seventies. By immigrants from the Indian sub-continent, granted. But still invented in Britain. Now it's part of the fabric, the weave and weft of British life. Britain after a certain point, and before a certain point, was a mono-culture, monochrome. Then it slowly started to crack, evolve. But it "British" culture didn't die completely when we had what was (according to the right, anyway, i never really saw any evidence of this) mass immigration from the various parts of the world.

And you know why this is, why they came? It's not because "BRITISH VALUES ARE INHERENTLY BEST" (although some we claim as "inherently" british values are wonderful things, the only problem is in the claiming of them as ours, because really we should stop and think that most cultures share them, in some variation or another). It wasn't JUST economic, because if it was, they'd make their pile and go home and live like kings (some do. Most don't). The reason the vast majority of people chose to emigrate to the UK is they LIKE and RESPECT the host culture. They only want it to evolve enough that they can be part of it, they only want the definition of the culture to widen a little...just a little. And others like and respect French culture, Swedish culture, etc etc etc.

Of course, you get a few immigrants who want to transplant their own culture into alien soil (like, err, the Pilgrim Fathers ;) ). But the vast majority don't want to do that. And the problem with the majority of European immigration over the past 50 years or so is a collective failure of imagination in all governments - either they want to pull up the drawbridge and hide from the world, the future, evolution, or they are terrified of being accused of being racist so kowtow to that small vocal minority who want to transplant their own culture. So, instead of African-European being like African-American - an identity which encompasses both elements - a large amount of immigrants - through *possibly no fault or desire of their own* end up that worse of things - "An African, who lives in Europe", someone adrift between the two, instead of embracing them.

Does that make sense to you? Or am i just rambling?

It makes sense

Europe IS dying but it will be reborn, it follows a pattern i cant remember where it comes from, but is there and everything follows this pattern: it goes up, comes down, up further, down half as much, up, reaches its peak and then does the first bit backwards again, it doesnt make sense but it does in a way the Zenith was just before WW1 the next peak is supposed to be in 20-30 years time and we are the lowest point at this stage of the cycle. So we will get up again and then slip down even further up a bit then slip to the very bottom and start the cycle again.

Markets, people lives, nations, luck, football scores all follow this pattern(apparantly).

Again this may not make sense, but if it does great!

Basically you got to be white

There we have it then. An European is white. No, "An European has to be white, otherwise Europe is dying!", wouldn't you say? A better starting point for a conversation than "Europe dying", right?

It makes sense, and I would have no problems with immigration had it not been for most Africans, people from vest-Asia and the Middle East not becoming a part of your society. And In my case I mean a full member, meaning that they only talk Norwegian and stuff like that. And birth rates, if we become a minority well then Eureope are not Europe any more.

Or was it more because...they only had Aborigine culture to interact with?

You where right and was right, you just has to rub it inn. But still we(the vikings) made it pretty far befor we had any contact with other people.

There we have it then. An European is white. No, "An European has to be white, otherwise Europe is dying!", wouldn't you say? A better starting point for a conversation than "Europe dying", right?

So if in the future, Most Europeans are not white, that would have been fine by you?

It makes sense, and I would have no problems with immigration had it not been for most Africans, people from vest-Asia and the Middle East not becoming a part of your society. And In my case I mean a full member, meaning that they only talk Norwegian and stuff like that. And birth rates, if we become a minority well then Eureope are not Europe any more.

Well, count yourself lucky then! Your gov't doesn't have to join EU. You can preserve your blondness and blue-eydness easy. You yourself are kept safe from brown skin, if that makes you so sick.

Well, count yourself lucky then! Your gov't doesn't have to join EU. You can preserve your blondness and blue-eydness easy. You yourself are kept safe from brown skin, if that makes you so sick.

I prefer blond hair and blue eyes, nothing wrong with that. No we are not big fans of the EU in Norway. Not that you can blame us, demanding huge sums of money and trying to force us to share your fishing grounds.
Look at your own country before you accuse some one of being afraid of change and hostile to foreigners.

But still we(the vikings) made it pretty far befor we had any contact with other people.

And so did the Celts. But in the end, they profited from contact.
And yes, all contact is difficult, and cultures tend to clash. Yes, there will be violence because of that.
The point is, if Europe was to close its borders to the rest of the world, it would lose contact. It would lose political and economical influence, it would suffer severely from the consequences. So, you'll just have to take the good with the bad.

So if in the future, Most Europeans are not white, that would have been fine by you?


If they are tolerant, law abiding, and democratic, why wouldnt it be fine?

If they are tolerant, law abiding, and democratic, why wouldnt it be fine?
Apparently it's not OK. Being alright as an European to some, is frolicking up and down fjords and fjäll in all blue-eyd blondness. No Brown in this utopia. Not even shades.

Edit: Reminds me of any other oil-state really; "let them brown people do it" (this I heard in Emirates)... or the "blacks will handle it" (in Dubai). And Norway... (i'm just bitter cos me old sweetheart gone there as a nurse). But hey.. a pattern... or not...

Apparently it's not OK. Being alright as an European to some, is frolicking up and down fjords and fjäll in all blue-eyd blondness. No Brown in this utopia. Not even shades.

Edit: Reminds me of any other oil-state really; "let them brown people do it" (this I heard in Emirates)... or the "blacks will handle it" (in Dubai). And Norway... (i'm just bitter cos me old sweetheart gone there as a nurse). But hey.. a pattern... or not...

I remember when i used to post on a noticeboard, a heterosexual male made the following comment, which i agreed with:-
"I believe in the multi-cultural world because i want to sleep with brown girls. I want to sleep with white girls. I want to sleep with black girls. I want to sleep with chinese girls. And i want to sleep with hispanic girls"

Thats the kind of melting pot i want. Lets all screw ourselves bandy until everyone is beige.

Apparently it's not OK. Being alright as an European to some, is frolicking up and down fjords and fjäll in all blue-eyd blondness. No Brown in this utopia. Not even shades.

We do have immigrates in Norway, tough most of them live in Oslo. And like Finland has so many. And it’s your country I am so sorry that we only have white people her considering that it is your home and all. We are an evil people wanting to keep your country for your self, witch you being a fin should know all about.

We do have immigrates in Norway, tough most of them live in Oslo. And like Finland has so many. And it’s your country I am so sorry that we only have white people her considering that it is your home and all. We are an evil people wanting to keep your country for your self, witch you being a fin should know all about.
Oh! This I fess so quick I can! Finland has very FEW immigrants. Much less than Norway, let alone the other Nordic countries.

Maybe this is why I'm not weeping after lost Europeanness...?

I mean, it's easy for me to bitch, we have no oil or resources to keep us outside... or was it the other way around.. it's easy to people who didn't contribute nought to bitch.... you tell me, oh master of answers

OK. Can't be arsed to delete parts of that last message of mine. Bad parts in it. I do love the Norrmen, I bet I could learn to love MG too. Sorry about that.

You know, the people that live in Europe right now are descendants of people that didn't live in Europe to begin with. The discussion is moot then, since there is no such thing as a European culture.

Are you talking about cro magnon man, homo erectus who came to Europe 40,000 years ago? He was white. He started the culture in Europe.

Are you talking about cro magnon man, homo erectus who came to Europe 40,000 years ago? He was white. He started the culture in Europe.

Now, how would you know that? For all I know, there are no specimen of mumified Cro Magnons, so there is no way in the world to determine their skin colour.

Are you talking about cro magnon man, homo erectus who came to Europe 40,000 years ago? He was white. He started the culture in Europe.No, as a matter of fact, I was talking about inhabitants. This makes all human life that eventually made it to Europe a foreign species and therefore not native.

As to Cro-Magnons being white, could you show me the pictures you took?

Now, how would you know that? For all I know, there are no specimen of mumified Cro Magnons, so there is no way in the world to determine their skin colour.Have you ever seen the skin color of a mummy? It's not exactly possible to tell what the original color was from that either.

[QUOTE=Laerod]No, as a matter of fact, I was talking about inhabitants. This makes all human life that eventually made it to Europe a foreign species and therefore not native.

But they were the original habitants werent they? That makes them native in my book.
As to Cro-Magnons being white, could you show me the pictures you took?

Scientists say they were white, the ones in Europe anyway, maybe they were a tanned white, and got lighter in the colder climate over the millennia that followed.

Have you ever seen the skin color of a mummy? It's not exactly possible to tell what the original color was from that either.

You can... I'm not absolutely certain as to the exact method, but melatonine doesn't decompose very fast, so if you have a skin sample, you can normally determine the skin colour fairly easily and effectively through chemical analysis.

Have you ever seen the skin color of a mummy? It's not exactly possible to tell what the original color was from that either.
The ancient Egyptians were a kind of reddy brown colour. Everyone knows that from the heroglythics(sp).

But they were the original habitants werent they? That makes them native in my book.


Scientists say they were white, the ones in Europe anyway, maybe they were a tanned white, and got lighter in the colder climate over the millennia that followed.
The original inhabitants would have been deer or such, not humans, in my book.

But they were the original habitants werent they? That makes them native in my book.


So, everbody that came after is non-European?
As there are no Cro Magnons left, I think the "Europeans" gt extinct some millenia ago....


Scientists say they were white, the ones in Europe anyway, maybe they were a tanned white, and got lighter in the colder climate over the millennia that followed.

Care to prove that claim? Link please...

Edit : Here's actually what European scientists say Clicky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/beasts/evidence/prog6/page6_2.shtml)

The ancient Egyptians were a kind of reddy brown colour. Everyone knows that from the heroglythics(sp).Ritter Kahlbutz looked pretty darn reddy brown to me when I went to see him, and he's a German knight.

Now, how would you know that? For all I know, there are no specimen of mumified Cro Magnons, so there is no way in the world to determine their skin colour.
Well what colour do you think they were? Black? Green?
A person with reason would say they were white, as they are the ancestors of modern European races, who are not surprisingly white. Unless you can give evidence to show that a race of people came to Europe one racial type, and somehow transformed into another colour in less than fifty thousand years.

Ritter Kunibert looked pretty darn reddy brown to me when I went to see him, and he's a German knight.

Iron oxide? Isn't he one of those moor corpses? Or am I mistaken?

Well what colour do you think they were? Black? Green?
A person with reason would say they were white, as they are the ancestors of modern European races, who are not surprisingly white. Unless you can give evidence to show that a race of people came to Europe one racial type, and somehow transformed into another colour in less than fifty thousand years.

See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/beasts/evidence/prog6/page6_2.shtml)

Ritter Kunibert looked pretty darn reddy brown to me when I went to see him, and he's a German knight.

Thats probably a tan, we do that from excessive exposure to the sun, plus if he was old, alot of burst blood vessels in the face, which produces a ruddy red colour in white people.

Iron oxide? Isn't he one of those moor corpses? Or am I mistaken?You are. He's a knight that failed to decompose after burial. The only logical explanation so far is that when he vowed that he wouldn't decompose after death if he had raped a woman and killed her husband as he was accused, he lied and God did indeed not let his body decompose. He can be found in a church on the outskirts of Berlin. The surprising thing is, the people buried next to him did decompose. They still haven't found out why he became mumified and the others didn't.

Thats probably a tan, we do that from excessive exposure to the sun, plus if he was old, alot of burst blood vessels in the face, which produces a ruddy red colour in white people.

*lol.... Mumies' skin will inevitably change colour in the process of mumification. The result depends on how the process was achieved. If he had had a tan, it would be unlikely to be visible after he was mumifies. Also, no blood remains in the boody during the process, otherwise the mumie would decompose...

Thats probably a tan, we do that from excessive exposure to the sun, plus if he was old, alot of burst blood vessels in the face, which produces a ruddy red colour in white people.Yeah, ok... Do you know why they called nobles "blue bloods"? They stayed indoors all the time because they didn't have to work the fields, so their skin was pale enough to see the veins, which look blue through skin.

See here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/beasts/evidence/prog6/page6_2.shtml)

I dont buy that they were middle eastern looking, explain the blue eyes and blonde hair of modern Europe? Did they come from exposure to the colder climates? And if so, then why arent the Innuit of the North pole lighter coloured, blonde, and blue eyes etc, instead of dare I say it, darker skinned, with black hair and eyes, abit like those middle easterners, with alot more fat cells to keep warm.

Yeah, ok... Do you know why they called nobles "blue bloods"? They stayed indoors all the time because they didn't have to work the fields, so their skin was pale enough to see the veins, which look blue through skin.
Thanks, I had wondered that, I assumed wrongly it was something to do with class.

*lol.... Mumies' skin will inevitably change colour in the process of mumification. The result depends on how the process was achieved. If he had had a tan, it would be unlikely to be visible after he was mumifies. Also, no blood remains in the boody during the process, otherwise the mumie would decompose...

Yes but the herioglythics Cabra show the Eygptians to be a ruddy red coloured people, not white, not black, not yellow.

The burst blood vessels were a reference to another posters observation, nothing to do with the mummies.

Thanks, I had wondered that, I assumed wrongly it was something to do with class.I gave the example of blue bloods because it is highly unlikely that Kahlbutz had a tan (rapists tend to be night active).

I dont buy that they were middle eastern looking, explain the blue eyes and blonde hair of modern Europe? Did they come from exposure to the colder climates? And if so, then why arent the Innuit of the North pole lighter coloured, blonde, and blue eyes etc, instead of dare I say it, darker skinned, with black hair and eyes, abit like those middle easterners, with alot more fat cells to keep warm.

1) Climate is not responsible for skin colour, as the colour of the skin doesn't protect against warmth or cold. Sun exposure is an important factor, it is the reason why people who are more exposed to sun and UV radiation develop skin with a higher level of melatonin.

2) Take a look at the different levels of sun exposure : While the temperature in the nordic regions of Europe can be the same as in Greenland, for example, Northern Europe get's a whole lot less sun. Northern America and Greenland have continental climates, Europe's climate is largely maritime.

More overcast skies = less direct sun = less UV radiation = no need for high levels of melatonin in the skin for protection = lighter skin.

And yes, 35,000 years is sufficient time to change a minor evolutional factor such as skin colour...

I got the knight's name wrong. It was Kahlbutz not Kunibert. I'm going to go correct it in my previous posts.

Edit: Here (http://www.kyritz.de/fvv/interessantes/kahlbutz.htm) is the official website of the town that is home to the curiosity, though it be in German.

Yes but the herioglythics Cabra show the Eygptians to be a ruddy red coloured people, not white, not black, not yellow.

The burst blood vessels were a reference to another posters observation, nothing to do with the mummies.

Mumies don't only occur in Egypt. He was talking about a mumie that can be found in Germany..

Well that history is very interesting, but does it matter. We are white now, and we are the native population of Europe.
But about that knight, they have no idea why his body became mumified?

Well that history is very interesting, but does it matter. We are white now, and we are the native population of Europe.
But about that knight, they have no idea why his body became mumified?Well, in a couple hundred years today will be history and the Europe will no longer be white and the Arab/African population will be the native population of Europe. That's what we've been argueing all along.

No, they don't. Follow the link in my post above or go here (http://www.onpedia.com/encyclopedia/Kampehl), but there isn't as much information here.

Well that history is very interesting, but does it matter. We are white now, and we are the native population of Europe.
But about that knight, they have no idea why his body became mumified?

You've still to define who "we" is, actually....

Well, in a couple hundred years today will be history and the Europe will no longer be white and the Arab/African population will be the native population of Europe. That's what we've been argueing all along.

I doubt it will come to that, not with out great pain and suffering any way.
And that does not bother you at all?


No, they don't. Follow the link in my post above.

Well I understand some German but not all of it; I am in the process of learning it for my backpack tour trough Europe. But for now that is way too much for me, could you say some of it?

And that does not bother you at all?


Why should it bother anybody? We will be history, either way, by then.

I doubt it will come to that, not with out great pain and suffering any way.
And that does not bother you at all?
Not that much. I won't be around. Might happen after all. Who knows, maybe there will be small enclaves of white supremacist villages like in S. Africa.


Well I understand some German but not all of it; I am in the process of learning it for my backpack tour trough Europe. But for now that is way too much for me, could you say some of it?
Then you shouldn't have picked a name that contains the word "Germania". But I edited the post you quoted and it now contains a link that has a small bit of information.

Then you shouldn't have picked a name that contains the word "Germania". But I edited the post you quoted and it now contains a link that has a small bit of information.

Well I like Germany, I think it is a nice country.

Not that much. I won't be around. Might happen after all. Who knows, maybe there will be small enclaves of white supremacist villages like in S. Africa.

Well if the people of Europe just watch as there number dwindle while they get extinct. They deserve nothing less. But to be honest i really doubt we be extinct. The politic is shifting right all over Europe; my own country will be getting a party that is very lets say against foreigners, to power this year so...

Well I like Germany, I think it is a nice country.
Yeah, well most Germans I know wouldn't like you though.


Well if the people of Europe just watch as there number dwindle while they get extinct. They deserve nothing less. But to be honest i really doubt we be extinct. The politic is shifting right all over Europe; my own country will be getting a party that is very lets say against foreigners, to power this year so...
That's a pity. One good reason not to go to wherever you're from (Norway, was it?)

Yeah, well most Germans I know wouldn't like you though.

Well, most Germans would assume that he either is not from Germany, or else a fashist and Nazi....


That's a pity. One good reason not to go to wherever you're from (Norway, was it?)

I know Ireland is keeping it's immigration legislation. They take immigration as a sort of compliment to their nation :D

Yeah, well most Germans I know wouldn't like you though.

Oh insults how nice, but I can live with that. I suspect your friends share your point of views any way. And most likely I will never meet you are any of the people you know. But any way that was just a rather crude insult. I could say that most Norwegians I know would not like you in return tough. But since I do not know you that would not be true.

That's a pity. One good reason not to go to wherever you're from (Norway, was it?)

That is your choice, but I would recommend it we have a nature that is to die for. And do you always avoid people with a different point of view then yours? And yes it was Norway.

Well, most Germans would assume that he either is not from Germany, or else a fashist and Nazi....

acutely I was often mistaken for a German when I was in Turkey.
And by all means call me a Facist or nazi, just Ignore the fact that those things are quite different from one and other. And that I am nether, I am a conservative.

Oh insults how nice, but I can live with that. I suspect your friends share your point of views any way. And most likely I will never meet you are any of the people you know. But any way that was just a rather crude insult. I could say that most Norwegians I know would not like you in return tough. But since I do not know you that would not be true.
Actually, considering how quickly people get ostracized in Germany for making comments any where near as brown as some of the ones you've been dropping, yes, a lot of people would not like you. This includes politicians, journalists, and the common man on the street.


That is your choice, but I would recommend it we have a nature that is to die for. And do you always avoid people with a different point of view then yours? And yes it was Norway.I tend to avoid people that disagree on certain topics, since they tend to be violent brutes. Some of my best friends believe in creationism, which is something I don't, so no, I don't always avoid people I disagree with.

acutely I was often mistaken for a German when I was in Turkey.
And by all means call me a Facist or nazi, just Ignore the fact that those things are quite different from one and other. And that I am nether, I am a conservative.The GDR called itself democratic, but that doesn't mean it was.

acutely I was often mistaken for a German when I was in Turkey.
And by all means call me a Facist or nazi, just Ignore the fact that those things are quite different from one and other. And that I am nether, I am a conservative.

I never called you that, I simply stated that in you run the risk of being mistaken for either by a German who reads these posts. Comments like the ones you made are treated as very suspective, as a general rule.

Most Germans would assume that you are no German because of them. If they should identify you as German, however, you would be labeled a Nazi.

But lets not talk about how miserable the Swedish government has failed in integration and poorly planed immigration. I will only win the discussion any way.


Wonderful arguements....

I read his references. They are not to be taken serious. Two racist blogs filled with the usual statistical interpretions, singeling out facts and the incorrect conclusions and a scandal paper unable to find the story they went out to get.

It is true that Sweden has not been succesful in integration as we still have some very small isolated groups of racist and whining old people unable to adapt to the Swedish society. These last remnants of backwards thrivers, often in the outskirts of the nation, are difficult to integrate as they tend to only read racist blogs and talk to like minded people. However, with continous efforts I am positive that even the worst neonazi groups (actually the group in Sweden with the highest criminality, including rape and the lowest economical contribution) will be able to be transformed into positive contributors to society.

Every survey done, by the swedish governement or international organisations has proven that Sweden has benefited economically of immigration. Still these thourough scientific studies by professionals are repeatedly brushed aside by racist teologicians as the correlation between rise in crime and children babtised Ahmed is almost 100%.

Actually, considering how quickly people get ostracized in Germany for making comments any where near as brown as some of the ones you've been dropping, yes, a lot of people would not like you. This includes politicians, journalists, and the common man on the street.

Well since you insist on doing this I can truly say the same about you and Norway. And well a nice fairy dream version of Germany you present there.

Well since you insist on doing this I can truly say the same about you and Norway. And well a nice fairy dream version of Germany you present there.

In what way is that "fairy dream"?

Well since you insist on doing this I can truly say the same about you and Norway. And well a nice fairy dream version of Germany you present there.Really? Fairy dream? I'm pretty sure I'm wide awake every time we have an anti-Nazi rally or protest march, and those happen without the Nazis wanting one for themselves. While the police don't have to do too much protecting of any Nazi rallies, they do have to fend off a lot more Antifa rock throwers than any other protest march gets from it's opponents. And that's just the anarchist fringe groups. The last time the Nazis wanted to parade through Berlin, the cities respectable citizens got together and blocked their route. The Nazis stayed at Bhf. Zoo and took their trains home.

Well since you insist on doing this I can truly say the same about you and Norway. And well a nice fairy dream version of Germany you present there.

Please Magnificent Germania, let's in no way pretend that you speak for the people in Norway.

a scandal paper

One of Norway’s biggest papers...

[/QUOTE]Every survey done, by the swedish governement or international organisations has proven that Sweden has benefited economically of immigration. Still these thourough scientific studies by professionals are repeatedly brushed aside by racist teologicians as the correlation between rise in crime and children babtised Ahmed is almost 100%.[QUOTE]

So rape and murder was bound to rise any way in Sweden you say.
And thats Funny we have done the same tests in Norway and we are losing on it.

Please Magnificent Germania, let's in no way pretend that you speak for the people in Norway.

But you of course speak for all of Sweden...

One of Norway’s biggest papers...
Germany's (http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/index.html), in fact Europe's (http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/index.html) largest paper is the one of the least respectable in the business. Size has little to do with relevance and objectivity.

Really? Fairy dream? I'm pretty sure I'm wide awake every time we have an anti-Nazi rally or protest march, and those happen without the Nazis wanting one for themselves. While the police don't have to do too much protecting of any Nazi rallies, they do have to fend off a lot more Antifa rock throwers than any other protest march gets from it's opponents. And that's just the anarchist fringe groups. The last time the Nazis wanted to parade through Berlin, the cities respectable citizens got together and blocked their route. The Nazis stayed at Bhf. Zoo and took their trains home.

By all means that is very good, what I meant was that germans are not that open to foreigner as you say. But I see that you have label me as a nazi and you will not change your mind any way. And I do know Germans from Bayern so I can speak from some experience.

One of Norway’s biggest papers...

So rape and murder was bound to rise any way in Sweden you say.

And thats Funny we have done the same tests in Norway and we are losing on it.

Aftenbaldet is big in numbers but miniscule in respect.

Yes, also whitin the native population (to use stupid expression it has risen) and extremely so in the, what do you call them, conservaitve circuits.

So maybe it is Norway that has problems with integration and not the imigrants as it is the same imigrants that come to two similar countries.

By all means that is very good, what I meant was that germans are not that open to foreigner as you say. But I see that you have label me as a nazi and you will not change your mind any way. And I do know Germans from Bayern so I can speak from some experience.I never said Germans were very open to foreigners. I stated that we hate Nazis. I may not have labled you as a nazi, but you're not worthy of the title "conservative" in my eyes.
And speak from experience from Bavaria? That is probably the most un-German place around. Bavarians are so completely different from the rest of Germany that they're almost their own country. Heck, they even have their own language.

But you of course speak for all of Sweden...

I haven't said that a huge number of swedes would dislike you or such. I don't try to pretend that I speak for all swedes, however, a huge majority in Sweden does share my point of view. Example The racist fractions together got less than 1% in the national elections.

In norway about 15% voted for extreme right party Framstegspartiet. That would make it about 99.5-15 in my favor.

Is Europe dying? Europe, being a continent, does not meet the criteria for being a living organism. Ergo it can't die because it was never alive. The question is misleading and kinda dumb. If you want a decent answer, you have to specify what exactly you mean, since each possible interpretation of your question can yield a hundred different answers depending on one's sources. To not specify what you mean doesn't exactly help reduce the confusion.

As for Norway, it clearly DOES suffer economically from immigrants, but only because of it's wellfare system which provides for anyone who's too lazy to work. $US 50 per day isn't much, but for sitting on your butt doing nothing it's pretty good, and that's why many immigrants bring their friends, family and loved ones to Norway. There are criteria for getting Wellfare, but they're so relaxed that I've never heard of anyone being rejected. So many people come here, not to work and benefit society, but rather to leech off of it. I'd personally love to see wellfare of that sort abolished entirely in Norway, but that's just me. We wouldn't want those poor people to suffer now would we? :headbang:

And no, Norwegians are certainly NOT 50% blonde and blue eyed. I know this because I'm Norwegian myself. 30% max, and probably less.

Lastly, I certainly hope the population of Europe goes down. And I hope the same happens in every continent on earth. Overpopulation is probably THE biggest threat mankind has ever faced, considering all the other problems it leads to (famine, pollution, virulent spreading of diseases, etc.). And yes, most of these problems could be avoided if everyone on Earth decided to act nice to eachother, but since that won't ever happen, well... Castrations for all! If people would just stop breeding like animals and act as the superior species it so often claims to be, we'd be much better off IMO.

In norway about 15% voted for extreme right party Framstegspartiet. That would make it about 99.5-15 in my favor.

Its called Fremskrittspartiet and it is the second biggest party in Norway.
it has 20% something. And most likly it will be in the Goverment this year.



So maybe it is Norway that has problems with integration and not the imigrants as it is the same imigrants that come to two similar countries.

You do not live in Norway. So stop speaking for us, Norway is nothing like Sweden.

Lastly, I certainly hope the population of Europe goes down. And I hope the same happens in every continent on earth. Overpopulation is probably THE biggest threat mankind has ever faced, considering all the other problems it leads to (famine, pollution, virulent spreading of diseases, etc.). And yes, most of these problems could be avoided if everyone on Earth decided to act nice to eachother, but since that won't ever happen, well... Castrations for all! If people would just stop breeding like animals and act as the superior species it so often claims to be, we'd be much better off IMO.

Exactly. Stop complaining about losing population and look at the big picture -- overpopulation IS the problem!

Exactly. Stop complaining about losing population and look at the big picture -- overpopulation IS the problem!

Europe isn't loosing population. Europe isn't growing enough WHITE population, according to some posters here. And they wonder why we don't have a problem with that...

Europe isn't loosing population. Europe isn't growing enough WHITE population, according to some posters here. And they wonder why we don't have a problem with that...

I agree with this.
What the hell is white anyway? Put a spaniard, french, dane, brit, pole and greek next to each other and tell me which one is white exactly.

Immigration is a positive thing, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I only worry that if immigration goes unchecked then our cultures be destroyed. I don't expect this to happen, but you never know

I agree with this.
What the hell is white anyway? Put a spaniard, french, dane, brit, pole and greek next to each other and tell me which one is white exactly.

Immigration is a positive thing, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I only worry that if immigration goes unchecked then our cultures be destroyed. I don't expect this to happen, but you never know

The answer you seek is two fold:

1)
http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/51/0415918251.jpg
...white is a moving target. It was only in my great-grandparent's/grandparent's time that Italians and Slavs weren't considered to really be white.

2)
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6304022492.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
...as I paraphrase from someone on VH1: Okay, you got us. That's a white thing. Some of you all have rythem. There's no way a brother is gonna do that. :)

I agree: Immigration CAN be a positive thing. If it's legal and at a sustainable and reasonable rate.

I agree with this.
What the hell is white anyway? Put a spaniard, french, dane, brit, pole and greek next to each other and tell me which one is white exactly.

Immigration is a positive thing, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I only worry that if immigration goes unchecked then our cultures be destroyed. I don't expect this to happen, but you never know
"When I'm born I'm black, when I grow up I'm black, when I'm in the sun I'm black, when I'm sick I'm black, when I die I'm black, and you... when you're born you're pink, when you grow up you're white, when you're cold you're blue, when you're sick you're blue, when you die you're green and you dare call me coloured."
-Malcom X

I think the problem with a vast number of European countries is that they refuse to aknowledge immigration at all. One of Germany's politicians' favourite line is "Germany is NOT an immigration country" when in fact Berlin is the city with the 2nd largest Turkish population in the world (right after Istanbul), and an increasing percentage of the populations are "Germans" from Russia and Eastern Europe...

In refusing to aknowledge that there IS immigration taking place, the countries cannot react appropriately, the immigration itself cannot be regulated nor controled, and integration cannot take place from official side.
Both sides could profit from increased immigration and a higher mobility...

I think the problem with a vast number of European countries is that they refuse to aknowledge immigration at all. One of Germany's politicians' favourite line is "Germany is NOT an immigration country" when in fact Berlin is the city with the 2nd largest Turkish population in the world (right after Istanbul), and an increasing percentage of the populations are "Germans" from Russia and Eastern Europe...

In refusing to aknowledge that there IS immigration taking place, the countries cannot react appropriately, the immigration itself cannot be regulated nor controled, and integration cannot take place from official side.
Both sides could profit from increased immigration and a higher mobility...
You know that the Dutch with their rather free immigration model are starting to change towards the restrictive German one. Means refugees will be kicked out sooner and faster if they don't have refugee status.

overall europe is dying but it is still very slow process with in some countries population is breaking even..immigration is a issue but for the wealthier countries.

You know that the Dutch with their rather free immigration model are starting to change towards the restrictive German one. Means refugees will be kicked out sooner and faster if they don't have refugee status.

Refugees aren't immigrants.

Refugees are expected to return to their home country after whatever made them leave it is over. Immigrants come to a country without fleeing political persecution or war, simply to settle there and make a living... I'm an immigrant in Ireland, not a refugee.
Although, looking at the German economy right now, I think one could label me "Wirtschaftsfluechtling", or even "Gastarbeiter" ;)

I think Europe is in decline, but the last thing I want is more immigrants in. I saw my hometown (Burnley) completely destroyed by unchecked immigration. Crime (Most of it by the muslims) is pervasive, there are no-go areas for whites and the place looks like little Islamabad. I don't want the entire country like it. Now I know I'm going to get the usual people crowing about what a nazi I am and how I want to open the gas chambers, but if not wanting to see my country go into an Islamic dark age makes me a nazi then I guess I'm a nazi.

There has to be another way to raise birth rates. I refuse to believe immigration is the only way. Before you all ask, I don't know how exactly it would be achieved, but that's the politician's jobs to find out.

I think Europe is in decline, but the last thing I want is more immigrants in. I saw my hometown (Burnley) completely destroyed by unchecked immigration. Crime (Most of it by the muslims) is pervasive, there are no-go areas for whites and the place looks like little Islamabad. I don't want the entire country like it. Now I know I'm going to get the usual people crowing about what a nazi I am and how I want to open the gas chambers, but if not wanting to see my country go into an Islamic dark age makes me a nazi then I guess I'm a nazi.

There has to be another way to raise birth rates. I refuse to believe immigration is the only way. Before you all ask, I don't know how exactly it would be achieved, but that's the politician's jobs to find out.


I think the key word here is "unchecked immigration"
Honestly, it's not as if Europe was starving for more people right now, in fact most countries would be hard put to provide jobs for all of them. But what I do think Europe needs is skilled labour. Highly skilled.

Refugees aren't immigrants.

Refugees are expected to return to their home country after whatever made them leave it is over. Immigrants come to a country without fleeing political persecution or war, simply to settle there and make a living... I'm an immigrant in Ireland, not a refugee.
Although, looking at the German economy right now, I think one could label me "Wirtschaftsfluechtling", or even "Gastarbeiter" ;)There's a thin line there. Refugees are mainly not immigrants because they don't have proper residency rights. But immigration and refugee policy go hand in hand. Someone that treats refugees like shit (I've seen what a refugee camp looks like in Munich and it makes my blood boil :mad: ) isn't going to be much friendlier towards immigrants. And you shouldn't have had too many problems, considering you're a citizen as far as residency is concerned... I see you don't have umlauts on your keyboard... hehe :p

I think the key word here is "unchecked immigration"
Honestly, it's not as if Europe was starving for more people right now, in fact most countries would be hard put to provide jobs for all of them. But what I do think Europe needs is skilled labour. Highly skilled.
Train our own then. Perhaps if our education system wasn't so pathetically underfunded we wouldn't have a problem with skilled workers. The politicians just choose immigration as the easier route.

There's a thin line there. Refugees are mainly not immigrants because they don't have proper residency rights. But immigration and refugee policy go hand in hand. Someone that treats refugees like shit (I've seen what a refugee camp looks like in Munich and it makes my blood boil :mad: ) isn't going to be much friendlier towards immigrants. And you shouldn't have had too many problems, considering you're a citizen as far as residency is concerned... I see you don't have umlauts on your keyboard... hehe :p

It's a matter of perspective, really. Take a look at the US : refugees are not very welcome at all and are being hassled to Canada as soon as possible. But immigrants? Bringing with them some money and good education? All doors are open....

Train our own then. Perhaps if our education system wasn't so pathetically underfunded we wouldn't have a problem with skilled workers. The politicians just choose immigration as the easier route.
No they don't. They come up with racist statements like "Kinder statt Inder" (children instead of Indians).

No they don't. They come up with racist statements like "Kinder statt Inder" (children instead of Indians).
I don't see what's racist about wanting to increase the birth rates instead of bringing the cultural destruction that comes with immigration. I wish our politicians had more of an attitude like that, instead they're a buch of spineless cretins who want to welcome every immigrant to our shores, irrespective of the damage it will do.

No they don't. They come up with racist statements like "Kinder statt Inder" (children instead of Indians).

*rofl
Now, THAT was one of the most stupid campaigns I've ever seen.
Why would any skilled and educated Indian citizen in his/her right mind come to Germany, work there for - how long was it, 4 -8 years - just to be sent home like an undesirable person afterwards?
When, with the same training and skills, he/she could come to England, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc., live and work there for as long as they want and have the right to citizenship after 4-6 years?

I don't see what's racist about wanting to increase the birth rates instead of bringing the cultural destruction that comes with immigration. I wish our politicians had more of an attitude like that, instead they're a buch of spineless cretins who want to welcome every immigrant to our shores, irrespective of the damage it will do.The idea isn't racist, but the statement is. The issue was about funding school systems more so that in a couple years, long after we need them, we have the computer specialists we desperately needed back then. Indian programmers came over to get the jobs because there just weren't any Germans to fill all the gaps.
What country are you from, btw? Are you from one of the Scandinavian states?

Edit: Nevermind! I know where you're from now...

Well, we have a lack of unskilled workers, dont we? And if people don't want more kids, they'll have to accept immigrants.

Being anti immigration is usually just racisim in disguise.

People care about refugees, but they dont complain about people from rich countries who come for work etc.

I see that a lot of people feel very strongly about this issue, and are willing to contribute insightful arguments either for/against/on the fence. If anyone does wish to take this further, see the 'Rival Think Tank' thread and you can sign up. The role of Europe is an issue we will almost undoubtedly discuss.

I recall Ireland losing a hefty portion of its population to starvation and emigration during the potatoe famine, so that's one country I'd add to that list.
That was 150 years ago. The Irish population has only been growing since the 1960s.

The underhanded (and the obvious) racism in this thread is pretty startling. Is this a growing trend all across Europe?

That was 150 years ago. The Irish population has only been growing since the 1960s.

It was growing *very* well until 1847!! :(

The underhanded (and the obvious) racism in this thread is pretty startling. Is this a growing trend all across Europe?

Quote some examples? (with poster name please, that's important) I suspect it's not just the Europeans doing it.

The only two events which we can clearly label as when Europe was really "dying" were World War I and II. This "Aw, the white race is dying out" whining doesn't in the least compare to the massive deaths back then.

The underhanded (and the obvious) racism in this thread is pretty startling. Is this a growing trend all across Europe?

Yes, Id call it an awakening to their own cultures dying, and being replaced with another more than racism.

[QUOTE=Jjimjja]I agree with this.
What the hell is white anyway? Put a spaniard, french, dane, brit, pole and greek next to each other and tell me which one is white exactly.

Put millions of blacks and middle easteners next to them. Then see if you can tell.

Immigration is a positive thing, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I only worry that if immigration goes unchecked then our cultures be destroyed. I don't expect this to happen, but you never know.
With the current trends, count on it.

We did survive the Plague, didn't we?

You all act like European Culture is some sort of uniform, static thing that can only be destroyed, but not change.

That's stupid. European culture has changed continously over the past 2000 or so years, and whether or not a few more Middle Eastern influences come in, it'll remain its own unique blend.

Just because Asian countries are now emerging economically, that doesn't mean European countries decline. In fact, the richer Asians become, the more European made products can enter into their markets and make European economy stronger, regardless population differences. As far as the declining population is concerned, Europe has many options to counter it, such as more immigration, or supporting higher birth rates among its own citizens, or even relying on more engineering (technology/robotics) to keep up with economical pace.

[QUOTE]

Put millions of blacks and middle easteners next to them. Then see if you can tell.


With the current trends, count on it.

Spaniards do have a lot of middle eastern blood dough and are hardly europeens geneticly any more, and yes we are dying out, the white ppl in europe are not fucking enough, the blacks and middle eastern and indian-pakistan are doing it like rabbits, and we get 1 child per women, they have 5. We ARE SCREWED PEOPLE WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE :eek:

Why should Europe have any interest in isolating itself? Why should it be afraid of change?
I think it's important to stay alert to the change and try to make the most of it, but honestly, every attempt to control migration ever undertaken in the history of mankind failed miserably.

Europe today would be completely unrecognisable to a person from 100 years ago, so has it "died" in the meantime? If not, what makes you think it would die now? :confused:

As far as the declining population is concerned, Europe has many options to counter it, such as more immigration

That is what will end Europe. . Along with multiculturalism. :rolleyes:

That is what will end Europe. . Along with multiculturalism. :rolleyes:
Maybe it will end Suburbia though in Europe! Yay!

[QUOTE=Gessler]
Spaniards do have a lot of middle eastern blood dough and are hardly europeens geneticly any more, and yes we are dying out, the white ppl in europe are not fucking enough, the blacks and middle eastern and indian-pakistan are doing it like rabbits, and we get 1 child per women, they have 5. We ARE SCREWED PEOPLE WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE :eek:

Ah the truth.

Ah the truth.
No it's not. What kind of bullshit are you dishing out?

Do you believe in a static culture, that cannot change or vary over time?

[QUOTE=Leonstein]No it's not. What kind of bullshit are you dishing out?

Yes it is. You would have to be like simple minded, or in denial to what is happenning In Europe, whites simply are a dying race thanks to low birth rates bought about by the womens movement and a love of money and what it can buy, over having children instead.

Do you believe in a static culture, that cannot change or vary over time?

I don't see why a predominantly white culture cant accomplish this without outside influences that totally alter the racial make up to one greater than the present European one.
The changes you want to see are a complete replacement of the predominantly caucasian one to it seems a middle eastern-African one.

[QUOTE=Magnificent Germania]I did later say the white population of Europe... so what is your point?



my point is made underneath:- "So, basically, your definition of European - and indeed, national - identity seems to be "immigrants after x point, but before y point". Now, can you see the fallaciousness of this, or is it just me?"

Listen, culture evolves. European Culture is not some monolothic thing. It's different than it was 100 years ago. It's MUCH different than it was 1000 years ago. And it's practically unrecognisable from what it was when your ancestors hoved into view, occupying the Scandinavian Basin. Your definition of Europe = "set in stone, as it was at this point, but not before, and not after". Which is, basically, the cornerstone of all conservative beliefs (i'm assuming you are conservative by nature here, it seems that way) - that the past was a roseate glory, and that we must try to preserve that past, and any change to that past means, basically, the old ways are gone forever.

The old ways are gone forever every decade. Europe has a constantly changing, evolving culture, which owes as much to the east as the west, and to the mediterranean - both sides of, south and north - as it does to the baltic or the mittle-european nations. This is a good thing. I enjoy it. I don't want to live in some static culture where the "old values" go permanently unchallenged. Because if you removed - say - the now growing influence of immigrants from the Middle East, from North Africa, from Southern Africa, from Asia etc etc...you wouldn't be left with Europe. You'd be left with the "EURO HERITAGE THEME PARK". Not a continent that was alive, but one that was a hideous parody of life, forever preserved in amber.

Just me, but i'd prefer a few brown skins around me to that...

Ok, im from the UK, and i HATE muti-cultural society , heres why.

The left wing goverment has this stupid beleif that minorities shoudent be upset, as a result, political correctness runs rampant, and the freedoms of british people are destroyed. forst off:


British people who are poor must wait about a year or two years, for a house to rent from the goverment, immigrants get one straight away UNFAIR!!!!!

I had wanted to be a policeman, but i was told i coudent apply for 6 months because they wanted to offer the jobs to minorities first UNFAIR!

There was a play in birmingham which had a rape scene in a mosque, and thousend of muslims took the streets and proteste, and threatened to kill the woman (who was muslim) who had written it, the goverment banned the play,
2 weeks later , an opera, called jerry springer aired on the TV , christians went to the streets and porteste, altough they didnt use threatening tactics like the muslims, the christians were ignored (christianity IS the religion of most western countrys, and the cultural doctrine of western countrys is based on christianity, the american $ says in god we trust) UNFAIR!

MY neighber tried to fly the flag of ST george in her garden (flag of england, white bacground, red cross) she was told to take it down by the council, to offensicve.......

A pub where i used to live, called the saracens head was ordered to change its name, cos it might be offensive to muslims.......


i could go on all day about the way british people are discriminated in favour of minorites, i dont want my way of life to be destroyed,

One last thing about the severley PC BBC, it was giving a weather report on scotland and said the weather was a bit bistch , hahahaa, i half expected him to say the weather in england was "bloody awful"


EDIT: can i make it clear im not racist, my sister is 1/2 indian......... its more my own goverment i have a problem with, with this hypocritical thought of, lets give minorities loadsa rights, so we dont discriminate, and end up discriminating a load of other people.

[QUOTE=Fischerspooner]

Ok, im from the UK, and i HATE muti-cultural society , heres why.

The left wing goverment has this stupid beleif that minorities shoudent be upset, as a result, political correctness runs rampant, and the freedoms of british people are destroyed. forst off:


A pub where i used to live, called the saracens head was ordered to change its name, cos it might be offensive to muslims.......


i could go on all day about the way british people are discriminated in favour of minorites,

I'd love to hear your definiton of that please?

So you wouldn't find a pub called "Lizzy the Whore" inoffensive if you passed by it? Cool.

[QUOTE=Rougu]

I'd love to hear your definiton of that please?

So you wouldn't find a pub called "Lizzy the Whore" inoffensive if you passed by it? Cool.

lol that would be an awesome name for a pub! >.<

british people



I'd love to hear your definiton of that please?



The Daily Telegraph is inviting its readers to express their opinions about Britishness. One of the entry was

Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV. And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of anything foreign.

Yes it is. You would have to be like simple minded, or in denial to what is happenning In Europe, whites simply are a dying race thanks to low birth rates bought about by the womens movement and a love of money and what it can buy, over having children instead.
Have you ever been to Europe?
Black people don't have more kids than white people. Some do, but you cannot generalise. Generalising by race is utterly ridiculous and dangerous.
If anything, rich people have more kids than poor people, so if you want to preserve your pure white racial heaven, then you might want to give other people the opportunity to make a lot of money and quick.

EDIT: While making white people poor of course. Bring on the trailer parks!

I don't see why a predominantly white culture cant accomplish this without outside influences that totally alter the racial make up to one greater than the present European one.
The changes you want to see are a complete replacement of the predominantly caucasian one to it seems a middle eastern-African one.
I suggest you sit down and read twenty or so history books. Either this is about culture, in which case there is no threat whatsoever because European culture has changed fundamentally many times over, or this is about race, in which case I would have you locked up.
I'm tolerant to anything but intolerance....

no.

Black people don't have more kids than white people.

Yes they do, as a group. Check a census and see the difference in fertility rates.

Yes they do, as a group. Check a census and see the difference in fertility rates.
Indeed, but check what I am saying: Rich people have fewer kids than poor people.
That is indeed proven, and that is what is happening in Europe, in Africa and in other places. So if you want to have less black people around:
Give them all your money.

Give them all your money.

You gotta be kidding.

It's related more to culture and heredity than income, otherwise it wouldn't be on such a worldwide scale. You would see massive fertility rates in poor "white" countries as well. Look at Russia, they have NEGATIVE growth.

You gotta be kidding.

It's related more to culture and heredity than income, otherwise it wouldn't be on such a worldwide scale. You would see massive fertility rates in poor "white" countries as well. Look at Russia, they have NEGATIVE growth.
look at Ireland when we where poor families of 8 wheren't unusual now it's 1 or 2

Nah. The Chinese economy is growing because it pays people virtually nothing to make cheap crap to sell to America and Europe. Eventually they will reach the limit of how much Europeans and Americans actually want to buy and they'll be stuck. Even if the Chinese economy grows at 8% per year (which wont happen) and the US's economy remains constant (which wont happen) it will take them 40 years just to catch up, and that's with a four-fold population advantage (which they wont maintain). They wont catch up in terms of GDP per capita and quality of life for 160 years.

China's economy is growing because it never truly industrialized in the first place. The country has a massive population and immense natural resources. It's development has been supressed by feudalism prior to the Communist revolution and idiotic socialist economic policy afterwards. Now that they've begun liberalizing their economy(kind of) they've been experiencing expontial growth. The fact that labor is cheap is good for china, that means more people can be employed(companies can afford to employ more people), and so fewer people are unemployed and starving. Slowly a middle class is growing in China, and the more liberal the chinese economy is, the faster it will grow, and the richer china, as a whole, will become.

Europe's economic policies are what's killing it. Europe is never going to die per se, but it is going to grow much more slowly due to protectionism and socialism instituted by the EU and national governments. The more of these politically wise, but economically suicidal policies are instituted, the slower Europe will grow in comparison with the rest of the world, losing it's position of power in world politics.

Culturally Europe is moving, generally away from christian moral views and twoards a more permissive, open society. Of course much of their unique culture is dissappearing with immigrants and international media and communications, but this isn't necesarily a bad thing. I think Europe's cultural changes are a mix of good and bad, but probably moving more in a good direction than in a bad.

Politically the EU will probably be much stronger than individual nations. Of course it's overall political standing will be determined by its economic and millitary movements, which both look like they will make Europe less powerful.

BTW Hillary Clinton---> :D :sniper:

look at Ireland when we where poor families of 8 wheren't unusual now it's 1 or 2

Well, one could say that was cultural, given that Ireland unlike most of Europe and the US is/was a strong Catholic nation. As the Catholics become more lax and things such as birth control and young marriage become less common the fertility rate will drop. In most of the first world nations, women aren't just baby machines any more. That was a major cultural change.

One more point I'd like to make:

Islam's growth in Europe IS dangerous, at least culturally, and probably politically. Islam is an even more illiberal and opressive religion(even in the most westernized forms) than Christianity, and at some point in the future there will probably be open conflict between muslims and non-muslims in Europe.

After all, the pig farmers won't go out of buisness without a fight!

Look at Russia, they have NEGATIVE growth.
There is other factors with that. Are you saying that the Russian culture doesn't encourage having children?

Why is it so difficult to understand this: The richer you get, the fewer kids you have - both comparing Africa to Europe and comparing rich Europeans to poor Europeans.

Yes it is. You would have to be like simple minded, or in denial to what is happenning In Europe, whites simply are a dying race thanks to low birth rates bought about by the womens movement and a love of money and what it can buy, over having children instead.



I don't see why a predominantly white culture cant accomplish this without outside influences that totally alter the racial make up to one greater than the present European one.
The changes you want to see are a complete replacement of the predominantly caucasian one to it seems a middle eastern-African one.


So what? Why should it be better to have kids who will screw you over and be happy little leeches on the social system as they are not very likely to find work at any time in their lives?
And when did "white" become a value? If it's a colour that's dying out, so what? What is the problem with that?

So what? Why should it be better to have kids who will screw you over and be happy little leeches on the social system as they are not very likely to find work at any time in their lives?
And when did "white" become a value? If it's a colour that's dying out, so what? What is the problem with that?It would reduce the amount of women he finds attractive, and since he's male, that would be a terrible thing in his eyes :p

In a return to this threads original intent, I would say that yes, absolutely Europe is dying. The age of European world domination in terms of both culture and economics are coming to an end. Europe is home to worlds most diverse and culturally rich nations and yet in the years since the last great european war they have shifted to the current stance of cultural integration. They attempt to become one instead of accepting that they are all different and on this earth for different purposes.

Europe, the continent of nations which gave the world modern economics, advanced languages, monarchy, republic and democracy, the mass produced word, painters and authors, composers and oraters; Europe, that marvelous place which gave us our very existence, that place which carved the world which we enjoy today. Europeans are decendant of the greatest civilizations of the world and yet now it is dying. Instead of embracing its rich history, it is too worried about cultural acceptance and equality to realize that it is exterminating itself.

I would offer a toast to europe, the europe that created our world and offer a prayer to the desecrated shell that remains.

Wow, that was dark... oh well. I do think Europe as history knows it is dying, however i still have hope that it will rebound as it has so many times before!

Wow, that was dark... oh well. I do think Europe as history knows it is dying, however i still have hope that it will rebound as it has so many times before!
Well written, but false in my opinion.
Where are you from? Because ask a European, and you usually get the answer that integration and partnership are good things.
If you ask me, you ain't seen nothin yet.

So what? Why should it be better to have kids who will screw you over and be happy little leeches on the social system as they are not very likely to find work at any time in their lives?
And when did "white" become a value? If it's a colour that's dying out, so what? What is the problem with that?

And I thought I was on your little ignore list? :p Once they get a taste for gessler they always come back for more.
You have no problem with a colour dying out? So you have no problem with the blacks in Africa dying out from famine, disease, war and ethnic cleansing either?

It would reduce the amount of women he finds attractive, and since he's male, that would be a terrible thing in his eyes :p

He IS pretty fixated on reproduction, isn't he? ;)

You have no problem with a colour dying out? So you have no problem with the blacks in Africa dying out from famine, disease, war and ethnic cleansing either?

I have a problem with people dying an unnecessary, violent, premature death, no matter what their colour. I have no problem with a natural process as the reduction of reproduction...

He IS pretty fixated on reproduction, isn't he? ;)I would so wish to add something witty to that, but I think I'll pass... :D

I have a problem with people dying an unnecessary, violent, premature death, no matter what their colour. I have no problem with a natural process as the reduction of reproduction...

Then your a fool, you dont care if whole cultures end, because people place higher prioritys in life than having children, to the extent they dont even replace themselves.
What of your feminism are you happy to see that die out as well?
Do you think non white cultures will take up feminism with the same zeal and social wrecking effects seen in western civilisation?.
I wouldnt count much on that.

Ironic isnt it? Your ideals lost because the one thing your really against, seeing yourself as enslaved to men through childbirth, is the one thing that ends you.
Which just goes to show, feminists are really only in it for themselves, not the future.

He IS pretty fixated on reproduction, isn't he? ;)

Damn right.

I would so wish to add something witty to that, but I think I'll pass... :D

Why, because your not really that witty?

Then your a fool, you dont care if whole cultures end, because people place higher prioritys in life than having children, to the extent they dont even replace themselves.
What of your feminism are you happy to see that die out as well?
Do you think non white cultures will take up feminism with the same zeal and social wrecking effects seen in western civilisation?.
I wouldnt count much on that.

Ironic isnt it? Your ideals lost because the one thing your really against, seeing yourself as enslaved to men through childbirth, is the one thing that ends you.


No, I don't expect them to follow my ideals. They have different cultures, so they will need different concepts and solutions.
I don't see myself as enslaved in any way, I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I don't even see myself as feminist, I don't think that feminism is necessary any more in Northern European society.
Ideals change with history, no ideal is ever absolute. If a society feels that one ideal is no longer needed, it will drop the balast.

Why should I care if European culture is declining? It has done so in the past, changed and rose again. It's a circle. Do you feel sorry for the loss of the Roman Empire? Do you feel sorry for the loss of religious strife? Do you feel loss for Imperialism? For the end of the Viking era? For the decline of Italy after the Renaissance?
Or would you rather have stuck to any one of the above, therefore preventing all others from happening?

Europe, as always, is showing the way to the rest of the world.
The development from fucked-up feudal state like Somalia (comparable to Europe between 8th and 15th centuries) through somekind-of-a-country kept together by military like Indonesia (comparable to ((some)) of the European powers between 17th and 19th centuries)to countries of fast development and growth like China and India at the moment (comparable to Europe in the age of industrialisation) in where the population and the level of material welfare are rapidly growing. Next stage seems to be American and Japanese level, in where teh growth has slowed down but is kept on going by bluffing, and will come (atleast economically) crashing down. And finally, there is the Europe, which has calmed down, with slow growth of both population and economy.

That'll happen to everybody, like all th other stages, eventually.

Why, because your not really that witty?No, because it might be considered flaming :rolleyes:

No, because it might be considered flaming :rolleyes:

But you seem to enjoy that? :confused:

[QUOTE=Cabra West]No, I don't expect them to follow my ideals. They have different cultures, so they will need different concepts and solutions.
I don't see myself as enslaved in any way, I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I don't even see myself as feminist, I don't think that feminism is necessary any more in Northern European society.
Ideals change with history, no ideal is ever absolute. If a society feels that one ideal is no longer needed, it will drop the balast.

Thats well and good, but it cant drop anything if its not around.


Why should I care if European culture is declining? It has done so in the past, changed and rose again.

Yes, but were talking past that, this is about a whole race dissapearing, not just declining and rising again.

It's a circle. Do you feel sorry for the loss of the Roman Empire? Do you feel sorry for the loss of religious strife? Do you feel loss for Imperialism? For the end of the Viking era? For the decline of Italy after the Renaissance?
Or would you rather have stuck to any one of the above, therefore preventing all others from happening?

See above answer.

Even though the birth rates are declining, I've yet to see the European country with a decline in population. So, no, no death in sight, really.

Scotland's population was falling but I think it has now picked up. :fluffle:
But that's only if you would count it as a country since it is part of the UK.

Yes, but were talking past that, this is about a whole race dissapearing, not just declining and rising again.


Again, so what? Do you regret that the European Neanderthal died out with the arrival of the Cro Magnon?

Again, so what? Do you regret that the European Neanderthal died out with the arrival of the Cro Magnon?

I would if I was the Neanderthal!

Europe would be fine if it wasn't for the EU...

Europe would be fine if it wasn't for the EU...
And where, might I ask, are you from?

I would if I was the Neanderthal!

Why? If you see that your people can't survive in the new, warmer environment, and that femalesof your race don't get enough kids to cover the losses, you -if you're able to think rationally and analyze the situation, which I don't think the cavemen were able to do- should understand that there is no point in starting to fight the cro magnons.

Why? If you see that your people can't survive in the new, warmer environment, and that femalesof your race don't get enough kids to cover the losses, you -if you're able to think rationally and analyze the situation, which I don't think the cavemen were able to do- should understand that there is no point in starting to fight the cro magnons.

The difference here is that they died off because they were less capable.
Here, the Western Europeans (particularly) are decreasing in relative numbers due to basic selfishness (higher standard of living, not wanting to deal with child rearing, etc).

I personally believe that if you benefit from living in a society, you have an obligation to keep it going!

The difference here is that they died off because they were less capable.
Here, the Western Europeans (particularly) are decreasing in relative numbers due to basic selfishness (higher standard of living, not wanting to deal with child rearing, etc).

I personally believe that if you benefit from living in a society, you have an obligation to keep it going!

On what grounds?
And I think "selfishness" is a good reason to die out... which, considering that parts of my family have begun to breed like rabbits, isn't very likely at all.

Why? If you see that your people can't survive in the new, warmer environment, and that femalesof your race don't get enough kids to cover the losses, you -if you're able to think rationally and analyze the situation, which I don't think the cavemen were able to do- should understand that there is no point in starting to fight the cro magnons.

So, what is your point? That we should drop dead and give your country to the new people?
And if you use that logic then no black people should live in colder countries since it is to cold for them. :rolleyes:

Yes, but were talking past that, this is about a whole race dissapearing, not just declining and rising again.

He really don’t care one bit for your culture or your ways so there is no point in trying to change his ways. Quite typical for most of your generation these days, don’t care about anything.