NationStates Jolt Archive

I still don't understand why people think it is better to let a child live a life of terrible hardship and poverty, than abort it. Or it would make the mother's life a misery (i.e teen pregnancies)

The only counter-argument is that sometimes abortion is out of parent's selfishness, rather than they not being able to take care of the child.

Also, we could be aborting a future politician, artist, scientist etc. But we could also be aborting a future rapist, murderer etc.

Sucks when they don't stick around to argue, huh?

Ahh well, Ill have to go somewhere else.

Sucks when they don't stick around to argue, huh?

Doesn't make much of a difference to me... none of the anti-choice crowd seem to have answered any of my questions properly, even when they WERE here...

Ahh well, Im sure they're reading these posts...

Ahh well, Im sure they're reading these posts...
Yeah, like vultures waiting for their quarry to collapse from exhaustion... :p

I still don't understand why people think it is better to let a child live a life of terrible hardship and poverty, than abort it. Or it would make the mother's life a misery (i.e teen pregnancies)

The only counter-argument is that sometimes abortion is out of parent's selfishness, rather than they not being able to take care of the child.

Also, we could be aborting a future politician, artist, scientist etc. But we could also be aborting a future rapist, murderer etc.

Honestly... I suppose that poor, disabled, or anyone otherwise theoretically disadvantaged would just be better off dead.

Doesn't make much of a difference to me... none of the anti-choice crowd seem to have answered any of my questions properly, even when they WERE here...

This is graphic, but I think it would be hard for any pro-abortion supporter to look at this and say this should remain legal. I should warn that this picture is pretty grotesque, so if you may be offended, please do not look at it, as I am not intent on traumatizing anyone. The photo depicts an aborted child, so be warned.

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/freedom.jpg

What do you think?

Pretty good for an embryo.

Honestly... I suppose that poor, disabled, or anyone otherwise theoretically disadvantaged would just be better off dead.

Well, Im just saying that if a woman on $20,000 a year is going for her tenth child, she has a right to consider abortion.

And, well, yes, a disabled person, whose baby would most likely be taken away has a very good reason to aborth their child.

Not forgetting those under 18, for whom a child might prevent any chance of qualification etc.

This is graphic, but I dare you to look at it then tell me abortion isn't immoral.

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/freedom.jpg

Im sorry, so you would argue against fighting a war by showing a soldier who has lost his arm, no matter what they were gfighting against, or any background information?

All things in life have their unpleasant side, its a hard fact.

Im sorry, so you would argue against fighting a war by showing a soldier who has lost his arm, no matter what they were gfighting against, or any background information?

All things in life have their unpleasant side, its a hard fact.

Your point isn't clear.

Your point isn't clear.

Im saying that showing a gory picture is not the way to argue.

Im saying that showing a gory picture is not the way to argue.

Ok.

Ok.

Good.

Good.

I mean, "ok, I understand what you mean now." Here in the U.S., photographic evidence is allowed in trials so the jury can properly weigh and understand the evidence. In murder trials, it is common for the prosecution to choose to present photographs of the slain victim so the jury can understand the severity and/or brutality of the crime, and render judgment proportionally. I think that in this debate, pictures are appropriate to communicate the brutality of the abortive act.

It's problematic for pro-lifers when you say that pictures are anything but relevant because we feel like we're just letting you face the truth of the atrocity, and you just don't want to see the truth. We're thinking, "what are you afraid of?" It's kind of like photographs in newspapers; sure, you can always do without the photos, but there are times that words can't effectively communicate the emotions that are necessarily inseparable from the subject matter at hand. If you feel challenged by what we present, perhaps the proper course of action would be to present some of your own photographic evidence. (like abortion doctors holding money or something... i can't say because i'm honestly mystified by the passion behind the pro-abortion side of this debate). Perhaps the better course of action would be to question whether you've been mistaken.

I've known women who had an abortion and regretted doing so, and women who had an abortion and didn't regret doing so. I've never met a woman who didn't have an abortion and regretting doing so.

Number one, sone of those are extreme cases on that website.

Number two, so you are saying that if there was a less messy way to abort babies you would be for it?

And also, a baby being born is covered in goo, I appreciate it is still in tact, but that can't be helped because of the fragility of a baby at that stage.

Number one, sone of those are extreme cases on that website.

Number two, so you are saying that if there was a less messy way to abort babies you would be for it?

And also, a baby being born is covered in goo, I appreciate it is still in tact, but that can't be helped because of the fragility of a baby at that stage.

Those "cases" are pretty typical. I'm not sure what you invision a standard aborted baby to look like.

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room



Abortion is not genocide
Lest age denote a race
And unless only whites abort
This claim cannot save face

Im putting this to bed right now in order to save the server this thread is on from a catastrophic meltdown due to an overload of partisan politics. There is no way to ever settle this issue. I repeat: THIS IS NOTHING ANY PERSON COULD EVER DO TO STOP THIS POINTLESS ARGUMENT!!!!!!

Some of the pro-lifers act as feti as the most precious gift and that all life is precious. Often, the pro lifers are warhawks though. That doesnt make any sense. Those that are alive deserve preferential treatment until th next generation is born.

Pro choicers often act like their body is their own right, what they often miss is that when youre pregnant, its not just your body anymore, youre sharing it with a burgeoning lifeform, you cant just kill it off without consulting other options. If you dont want pregnancy, use good contraceptives, or, better yet dont have sex.

Of course, in cases of rape and pregnancy, most would agree abortion is reasonable. If you dont make the choice to procreate, why should you be punished?

My ire is up, but its very simple, abortion will be an argument for ever, unles we destroy the physical proof that the practice existed and wipe all human memories, it will be an eternal conflict. So the government bans abortion, so pro-choicers are pissed. Fine, so we allow it, Pro lifers are pissed. I dont want to insult politcal beliefs, but abortion isnt really that big of an issue. Wars and the economy and International relationships are really important, but people let this damned abortion issue drive a wedge between them

Hell, its gotten to the point where the two sides cant even come together and find common ground with which to begin. Every abortion argument turns into a shouting match. We need to stop arguing, and start working on a solution to bring the sides back together. Partisan politcs will only destroy us!

Kang:Abortions for all!
Crowd:Boooooo!!
Kodos:Abortions for none!
Crowd: Boooo!
Kang: Abortions for some, miniature American flags for the rest.
Crowd: Yayyyy!

In the region that my nation is named after, the Afghan side of Badakhshan, more than 25% of children die before the age of 5, mostly to easily preventable diseases. I can't even believe something like abortion is even an issue... it's more like a joke. Lucky for Christians they have no taste in art so they can't perceive what absolute shit this poem is. I'm pro-life by the way, but anti-legislation.

Thank you for mentioning this. I too have seen many other horrors much larger than just abortions. Having been to some third world countries, I would agree that this is a much larger issue. Take care of the ones that are already alive. Life will continue.

I'm pro-choice, but also anti-legislation. It is on this area that I feel is most important. The government should have no right the restrict such a situation that is private to only the individuals involved. I'll live my life my way, and yours your way. Living life to your own standards (no one else's) is what makes confidence and happiness.

Thank you. You have all my respect despite any differences.

This is graphic, but I think it would be hard for any pro-abortion supporter to look at this and say this should remain legal. I should warn that this picture is pretty grotesque, so if you may be offended, please do not look at it, as I am not intent on traumatizing anyone. The photo depicts an aborted child, so be warned.

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/freedom.jpg
Your terms are incorrect pro choice people dont support abortion they promote choice ... some of us dislike abortions and would never have one

Where as anti choice is an accurate tearm ... you are in support of removing the mothers choice and replacing it with that of the government

This is graphic, but I think it would be hard for any pro-abortion supporter to look at this and say this should remain legal. I should warn that this picture is pretty grotesque, so if you may be offended, please do not look at it, as I am not intent on traumatizing anyone. The photo depicts an aborted child, so be warned.

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/freedom.jpg

Ok, take a VERY close look at the picture. You will find that this was an abortion that took place around - my guess - the 5th-6th month.
Abortions that late are ONLY legal if the life of the mother is at stake, not even abortions because of genetic diseases or disability are permitted that late.

As we are discussing LEGAL abortions here, and unless you claim that no abortion at all should be legal even if the mother's life will be lost, this picture is completely irrelevant.

I've known women who had an abortion and regretted doing so, and women who had an abortion and didn't regret doing so. I've never met a woman who didn't have an abortion and regretting doing so.

Congratulations, you just made the acquaintance of a person who regrets that her mother didn't abort her...

I personally enjoy stillbirth poems more than anti/pro abortion poems.

We condone murder of a criminal in the name of victim's rights...
Actually, civilised countries don't.

This is graphic, but I think it would be hard for any pro-abortion supporter to look at this and say this should remain legal. I should warn that this picture is pretty grotesque, so if you may be offended, please do not look at it, as I am not intent on traumatizing anyone. The photo depicts an aborted child, so be warned.

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/freedom.jpg

Have you ever seen a stillbirth or miscarried baby? It's much the same. Using emotive and melodramatic images is not a rational person's argument. It is used solely to provoke.

To those who have a contrary view to mine on population growth: I see the whole world as one dwelling place, not rich and poor, east and west. America and the rest. We are all human and we are all responsible for each other on a global level. Populations in rich countries might not be growing as fast as they once were, but we are not the only people on the planet and if you dare deny that we're not already living in cramped conditions I will tear your argument to shreads!

I'd like to add my support to the person (sorry, forgotten who) who said that we should focus on saving the lives of children already here and suffering rather than on insisting on bringing yet more children into the world who are likely to suffer.

I'd also like to add that not all unplanned pregnancies end in abortion, plenty of people make happy and healthy homes for their unplanned children. BUT, from the sheer numbers of children stuck in the welfare system and all over the world, it is quite evident that their are plenty of people who can't make happy and healthy homes for their own or other people's children. Adoption is not a garuntee of a better life. Ease the burden on the welfare system - don't add more kids to it :-)

Bluestrips2']FACTS to proove that its sick LOL I dont need them I allready know, your arguments are fraud - the same old ****.

Im not even gonna debate it with you because your SICK.

My friend done it so it's right -- briliiant pure brilliant.

Evidence = Proof, YOU CANT PROOVE ITS RIGHT but killing is wrong.

Im not even going to read what your sick mind replies with, STOP BEING SICK and start caring for living things !!!

EGO TRIPPED OUT WOMEN lOOOOOl :D

We just wont get involved with these kind of women, although it is hard to judge who would kill :headbang:

The poem said it all read it and weep for the dead babies, 'no they are not babies' Just another way to get back at the guy who doesnt want to be with you. Too many women do this just as a dig back at the guy- thats why it will be stopped lol - SICK pure SICK My friend was talking about when a party has a stand against abortion HE WILL BE VOTED IN, and then you lose the ego trip control you think you have on killing unborn kids !!

ITS CLASS TO FEEL THIS GOOD :)

Most of this is unintelligible. But I will respond as best as possible. Clearly you are incredibly young and don't yet understand much about the world. You refuse to use facts and reasonable arguments because you know that your position is flawed.

"Sick" is an adjective, it is an opinion, no opinion is EVER right or wrong. That is the nature of opinion.

Evidence does not equal proof, evidence supports your claims and gives your statements ground to stand on under consideration. And in your own words "YOU CANT PROOVE ITS RIGHT", if I can't proove my position is right (which I can't, it is my opinion, nothing more), then you can't proove that your postion is right either. You said it yourself.

In a rational argument - you will learn more about this as you get older - one cannot simply change ones position or use contradictory arguments for oneself and the opposition.

You said you wouldn't read this, I wonder if you actually are? Again, you proove that you have not read a word I have said, I do care about living things, the mother is a living thing. Humans and animals all over the world are living things and I care very much for every living thing, as I have demonstrated in my posts repeatedly on this thread. I care more about the future of this world and the people in it than you do. You simply care about controlling other people and removing their freedoms. You care about the unborn child until it is born and then you want to forget about it completely. You don't care about the parents, you don't care about the conditions of that child's life. So don't tell me to start caring about living things, take that advice yourself. Ok?

"We just wont get involved with these kind of women, although it is hard to judge who would kill"
"We"? Oh, so you're schizophrenic? that explains a few things. Well, when you're old enough to start worrying about these things you will simply have to make 'Are you pro-choice or anti-abortion?' your first question when you meet a woman.

http://www.mrdowling.com/611starving.jpg

Images of life can be just as shocking as images of death.

I'm interested in finding out how the opinion on pro-choice and pro-life is distributed among men and women. The poll is here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434769&page=1&pp=15).

Actually, a number of my views are far from being pc, but only because I acknowledge the differences between men & women, rather than trying to claim those differences don't exist.
I have well reasoned, justified explanations for why I believe what I believe. That makes my views rational, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. So far you haven't given me any indication that your views are remotely rational.

Well I cant see anything rational about your views either, they go against mine, as mine go against yours.

No, you wouldn't. Judging from your attitudes, you'd probably call him a hero instead.

Just so you know the last man I would ever consider a hero would be one who molested his own child, or any child.

I dont know idiotic flamers. :rolleyes:

Well I cant see anything rational about your views either, they go against mine, as mine go against yours.
Well, the rational thing about my views is I can actually justify them in a manner that doesn't rely on attacking someone elses views. I have my reasons, which I have stated. You have your views .. "because you do"?

Just so you know the last man I would ever consider a hero would be one who molested his own child, or any child.
That's the first reasonable view I've heard from you.

I dont know idiotic flamers. :rolleyes:That wasn't a flame. That was a sarcastic response based on the fact that you have insulted me, my wife, our friends, and many other people here with your innane comments.

When I flame you, you'll notice.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia][QUOTE=Gessler]
Of course not. But then, I'd question whether your dog really loves you, or just knows you'll feed it.

He loves me.

I'm generally far from happy, but I think my posts speak for themselves as justification of being a balanced individual. Unlike yours.

Thats only your opinion, and your pc cronys on here.
I dont subscribe to your way of thought, as it isnt based on reality, just pc schools of thought on how things should be, rather than what they really are.

So now you're not including yourself as part of the human race? Well done.

Im human, but sometimes when I see the cruelty going on everywhere, I wish I wasnt.


That doesn't help, no, but right-wing, money-grabbing idiots who run the most powerful nation on the planet according to what daddy's drinking buddies tell him lends a pretty big helping hand too.

The money grabbing idiots as you see them are probably alot smarter than you and me. And America has thrown billions at Africa in aid over the decades, wher is your acknowlegement of this?
All you can see is America is the root of all evil etc the real evil is the communist funded tinpot dictators rapeing their countrys wealth with your blessing by not caring.

Well, the rational thing about my views is I can actually justify them in a manner that doesn't rely on attacking someone elses views. I have my reasons, which I have stated. You have your views .. "because you do"?

LOL! Funny how none of the anti-abortion posters have given a reason for their position other that "it's wrong because I say so".

I'm sorry to sound like a petulant child here but it has to be done...
"Abortion is wrong"
-Why?
"Because it is"
-Why?
"Because it's murder"
-Why? There are many reasons already listed above as to why abortion isn't classed as murder.
"It's just wrong"
-Why?
"It's immoral"
-Why?

Do you see how this goes nowhere?! Pro-choice posters have been able to justify their position over and over again, be it on scientific grounds or sociological ones. I would genuinely like to see some sensible comments from the anti-abortionists.

The money grabbing idiots as you see them are probably alot smarter than you and me. And America has thrown billions at Africa in aid over the decades, wher is your acknowlegement of this?
All you can see is America is the root of all evil etc the real evil is the communist funded tinpot dictators rapeing their countrys wealth with your blessing by not caring.

Oh dear. Not too bright. Aid doesn't solve these problems long term You must not have been paying any attention over the last couple of months. Here's a question, would Africa be in the state it is now if us white folk hadn't kidnapped a bunch of people to enslave, forced our religion on the natives, stole all their assests, forced them to give us all their money, not paid what their exports were worth and so on and so on? I may have to drag you to a new thread to discuss this properly, rather than hijacking this one.

And just becasue the puppet masters behind Bush are smart - as they undoubtedly are, does not mean they do the right thing in every situation. As far as many people in the world are concerned it is just the opposite.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]That's the first reasonable view I've heard from you.

Well it was pretty much what I'd already said before you lamblasted me wrongly as considering a child molester a hero, you have some nerve screeching how insulted you feel by my views and comments, when your throwing up bile like this.

That wasn't a flame. That was a sarcastic response based on the fact that you have insulted me, my wife, our friends, and many other people here with your innane comments.

Sarcasm the lowest form of wit... only held up as good by people like yourself.
Try other forms of humour, like black, or even gut reaction laughter, actually you would probably be incapable of a belly laugh, for you its from the mouth only at sarcastic comments at other peoples expense.
If you feel so insulted by my 'inane comments' then just ignore them.




When I flame you, you'll notice.

I'm shaking in my boots tough guy. :rolleyes:

He loves me.

Are you sure ? Can you read your dogs mind ?
More likely: Your dog views you as the leader of its pack and toadies to you to insure that it doesnt get kicked out.


Thats only your opinion, and your pc cronys on here.
I dont subscribe to your way of thought, as it isnt based on reality, just pc schools of thought on how things should be, rather than what they really are.
Why is Political Correctness so evil ?

And its you who is subscribing to an antiquated view of reality




The money grabbing idiots as you see them are probably alot smarter than you and me. And America has thrown billions at Africa in aid over the decades, wher is your acknowlegement of this?
All you can see is America is the root of all evil etc the real evil is the communist funded tinpot dictators rapeing their countrys wealth with your blessing by not caring.

You do know that a LOT of those "tinpot dictators" where installed by the US, don't you ?

Also, a lot of the aid given to 3rd world countries is just money being deposited on their bank account, which means that those "tinpot dictators" can embezzle it quite easily.

LOL! Funny how none of the anti-abortion posters have given a reason for their position other that "it's wrong because I say so".

I'm sorry to sound like a petulant child here but it has to be done...
"Abortion is wrong"
-Why?
"Because it is"
-Why?
"Because it's murder"
-Why? There are many reasons already listed above as to why abortion isn't classed as murder.
"It's just wrong"
-Why?
"It's immoral"
-Why?

Do you see how this goes nowhere?! Pro-choice posters have been able to justify their position over and over again, be it on scientific grounds or sociological ones. I would genuinely like to see some sensible comments from the anti-abortionists.


*lol
With Gessler, it was even more limted

"It's sick"
-Why?
"Because it's sick"
-Aknowledged, but why?
"Because you are all sick bitches"

Well, the rational thing about my views is I can actually justify them in a manner that doesn't rely on attacking someone elses views. I have my reasons, which I have stated. You have your views .. "because you do"?

Like saying someone holds a child molester up as a hero for instance.
Yeah sure, you never attack someone elses views do you?

*lol
With Gessler, it was even more limted
"It's sick"
-Why?
"Because it's sick"
-Aknowledged, but why?
"Because you are all sick bitches"

That was Blue stripes, not me.

He loves me.
Told you, did he?

Thats only your opinion, and your pc cronys on here.
Whether my views are backed by rational argument is not a matter of opinion. When you actually learn that, maybe we can get somewhere.

I dont subscribe to your way of thought, as it isnt based on reality, just pc schools of thought on how things should be, rather than what they really are.
And your way of thought, where the father should beat his child in order to discipline him/her is based closer to reality than mine? Not merely your thought on how things should be, rather than what they really are?

Im human, but sometimes when I see the cruelty going on everywhere, I wish I wasnt.
Join the club. Now do something about it.

The money grabbing idiots as you see them are probably alot smarter than you and me.
Than you, I don't doubt. Smarter than me? Maybe. GWB certainly isn't though. For starters, I can actually use the English language without making myself look like an idiot.

And America has thrown billions at Africa in aid over the decades, wher is your acknowlegement of this?
I never denied that they did, but they also contribute heavily towards keeping African nations in a situation where they actually need the aid.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat today.
Give him a fishing rod, and he'll feed his family for years.

All you can see is America is the root of all evil etc the real evil is the communist funded tinpot dictators rapeing their countrys wealth with your blessing by not caring.
I don't see America as the root of all evil. I see the American government as a despicable entity that needs tearing down and an organisation with intelligence and conscience (no, not me) put in it's place. America should be using it's power to cause huge improvements in the lafe of everyone on this planet, but instead they bomb them back into the dark ages. Very caring.

When you know something about me, you can claim I don't care. Except you couldn't, because if you did know anything about me, you'd know that I do care.

You're not from the South, by any chance?

Like saying someone holds a child molester up as a hero for instance.
Yeah sure, you never attack someone elses views do you?
No, I just express my views based on the evidence I'm given.

I was also not being serious, as I've already noted. You seem to not actually understand sarcasm particularly well. As for humour, I don't think this discussion is really something that calls for humour, do you? My wit is dry enough to confuse any thoughtless, mob-driven fools who come across it.

[QUOTE=Hobabwe]Are you sure ? Can you read your dogs mind ?
More likely: Your dog views you as the leader of its pack and toadies to you to insure that it doesnt get kicked out.

I dont have to explain to you what I can see.
Dogs can show genuine affection, unlike cats who toady.
Like the saying goes, dogs have masters, and cats have servants.



Why is Political Correctness so evil ?

Because you cant disagree with it.



And its you who is subscribing to an antiquated view of reality

Good, it holds alot more substance than what passes for todays crap.





You do know that a LOT of those "tinpot dictators" where installed by the US, don't you ?

Some were, to install democracys, alot were also placed and supported by Communist Russia.


Also, a lot of the aid given to 3rd world countries is just money being deposited on their bank account, which means that those "tinpot dictators" can embezzle it quite easily.

I know.

All you can see is America is the root of all evil etc the real evil is the communist funded tinpot dictators rapeing their countrys wealth with your blessing by not caring.

Do you care? What are you doing about helping the African people? Are you lobbying your government to support Fair Trade? Hell, are you even buying anything Fair Trade? Do you donate regularly to Oxfam/Red Cross/any other charity providing sustainable aid to the developing world?

New Rootopia and I do all of the above. I bet you aren't doing anything, just sitting at home chuntering to yourself about the damn commies. Oh and you're obviously not aware that the US funds and supports pretty much all of the dictatorships in the world. It's only when they want to steal the nation's assets that they decide to do something about the dictatorship!

And as for the subject of this thread, you still have not backed up your postion with any valid statements - valid in the debating sense, not the common use of the word.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]No, I just express my views based on the evidence I'm given.

Well you have a strange way of arriving at the conclusion of your 'evidence' that I hold a child molester up as a hero, when I had even previously said how much I loathed them.


I was also not being serious, as I've already noted. You seem to not actually understand sarcasm particularly well.

Thats pretty much what sarcasm is but, its not actually humour, more a veiled insult, then when someone objects, the sarcasm connisseur such as yourself, will say I was only being sarcastic, not serious, therefore avioding trouble, truly a cowardly way of trying to be humourous.
I hate sarcasm, it doesnt show or display any genuine humour.

As for humour, I don't think this discussion is really something that calls for humour, do you?
No, black humour possibly.

My wit is dry enough to confuse any thoughtless, mob-driven fools who come across it.

Nothing to be proud of, have you ever really genuinly laughed until you cried?
That may be abit too natural for your cold sarcastic life.

I dont have to explain to you what I can see.
Dogs can show genuine affection, unlike cats who toady.
Like the saying goes, dogs have masters, and cats have servants.


All pets are similar to a degree, they all know who supplies the food!

I woke up this morning with one of our cats curled up on my back (I was on my front) purring away contentedly. When he realised I was awake he got down and nuzzled up to me for a cuddle. I like that about cats, they're very clever, they get exactly what they want, when they want it without making a sound. Food, a full body massage, a nap. And I supply these things willingly. Dogs just howl and bark and jump around the place and steal the food off the table. Yuck. Slobbery beasts.

Nothing to be proud of, have you ever really genuinly laughed until you cried?
That may be abit too natural for your cold sarcastic life.
My cold life? This coming from someone who admits he thinks children should be beaten?

But in answer to your question, yes, I have, not that it's actually any concern of yours.

Nothing to be proud of, have you ever really genuinly laughed until you cried?
That may be abit too natural for your cold sarcastic life.

Oh he laughs like that all the time! Especially when he reads posts on here like that!

[QUOTE=Froudland]Do you care? What are you doing about helping the African people? Are you lobbying your government to support Fair Trade? Hell, are you even buying anything Fair Trade? Do you donate regularly to Oxfam/Red Cross/any other charity providing sustainable aid to the developing world?

Your right, I don't care much, but that has nothing to do with why Africa is in such a mess, I didnt cause it.
I believe we should wipe the dept, but thats a non issue really, its not going to affect the average African much, as his governments werent trying to seriously pay the depts off anyway.
As for Fair trade, what conditions do you see in this for Africa?


New Rootopia and I do all of the above. I bet you aren't doing anything, just sitting at home chuntering to yourself about the damn commies.

Whoopee, I couldnt care how many bleeding heart crusades you are on, just because I'm not filling my life up with every new popular cause, to chat about in the cafe, doesnt mean I don't care about people.
I'll chunter to myself about the damn commies while you chunter to yourself about the evil capitalists. :rolleyes:

Oh and you're obviously not aware that the US funds and supports pretty much all of the dictatorships in the world.

Like North Korea?


It's only when they want to steal the nation's assets that they decide to do something about the dictatorship!

I see it as a reward for helping the nation out from under the dictators foot, also the stealing the nations assets as you see it, is actually more of a business arrangement that benefits both partys.


And as for the subject of this thread, you still have not backed up your postion with any valid statements - valid in the debating sense, not the common use of the word.

You only see them as non valid because they are 'right wing' or not pc.

Oh he laughs like that all the time! Especially when he reads posts on here like that!

Glad I cant hear it, I hate the sound of canned laughter.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]My cold life? This coming from someone who admits he thinks children should be beaten?

Theres nothing cold about physically discipling your kids, and I guess your the kind of person who on seeing a mother give her child a whack on the bum for being rude or naughty, would say stop beating that child.


But in answer to your question, yes, I have, not that it's actually any concern of yours.

I find that abit hard to believe.

All pets are similar to a degree, they all know who supplies the food!

I woke up this morning with one of our cats curled up on my back (I was on my front) purring away contentedly. When he realised I was awake he got down and nuzzled up to me for a cuddle. I like that about cats, they're very clever, they get exactly what they want, when they want it without making a sound. Food, a full body massage, a nap. And I supply these things willingly. Dogs just howl and bark and jump around the place and steal the food off the table. Yuck. Slobbery beasts.

Cats for the win :)

Mine tries to wake me up with slaps in the face if i dont feed her by 9 am :D

edit: the word "face" does not have a "2" in it :p

Theres nothing cold about physically discipling your kids, and I guess your the kind of person who on seeing a mother give her child a whack on the bum for being rude or naughty, would say stop beating that child.
Nothing cold about it? So you could equally hit your wife? your mother? Anyone else you claim to love? Hitting someone you love requires an exceptionally cold heart. Yes, I am the kind of person who would say that. Violence is never a reasonable solution, and violence against those who can't defend themselves is cowardly.

I find that abit hard to believe.
You find a lot of things hard to believe, don't you? Even when the facts are staring you in the face. I'm guessing you're one of those "If it's not in the bible, it's not true" types. This isn't an attack on christians, just on those who take it to extremes.

[QUOTE=Froudland]All pets are similar to a degree, they all know who supplies the food!

And isnt that a good enough reason to display love and affection?

I woke up this morning with one of our cats curled up on my back (I was on my front) purring away contentedly. When he realised I was awake he got down and nuzzled up to me for a cuddle. I like that about cats, they're very clever, they get exactly what they want, when they want it without making a sound. Food, a full body massage, a nap. And I supply these things willingly. Dogs just howl and bark and jump around the place and steal the food off the table. Yuck. Slobbery beasts.
Well I dont mind cats myself, Im thinking about getting a moggy soon, I just dont know how the lads will take to it but.
My dogs(I have two) a labrador/colly retriever-Bo, and a Boston terrier-Turbo, their both black and absolutely adorable.
And they do make alot of noise and slobber everywhere, but thats what I love about them.
Cats are way too quiet for my liking, but they have their place in the house.

I hate to spoil the fun you all seem to be having, but it seems to me the topic got left behind...

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]Nothing cold about it? So you could equally hit your wife? your mother? Anyone else you claim to love? Hitting someone you love requires an exceptionally cold heart. Yes, I am the kind of person who would say that. Violence is never a reasonable solution, and violence against those who can't defend themselves is cowardly.

Trust you to take it to this extreme, I dont see it as violence, if a few whacks on the backside improve your childs manners then Im all for it.
Its not cowardly to discipline your child in this fashion, but it is cowardly to let them do whatever they like for fear of what other people will think of you.



You find a lot of things hard to believe, don't you?

Pc mostly.

Even when the facts are staring you in the face.

What facts? Facts you support because they prescribe only to pc?

I'm guessing you're one of those "If it's not in the bible, it's not true" types. This isn't an attack on christians, just on those who take it to extremes.

No Im not quite that extreme, but the Bible does hold alot of good stuff, that you could probably learn from.

I hate to spoil the fun you all seem to be having, but it seems to me the topic got left behind...

Oh yeah lets discuss abortion for the umpteenth time again, what new fascinating views will we find this time?

I hate to spoil the fun you all seem to be having, but it seems to me the topic got left behind...

We got sidetracked into favorite pets for a few posts here :)

Your right, I don't care much, but that has nothing to do with why Africa is in such a mess, I didnt cause it.
I believe we should wipe the dept, but thats a non issue really, its not going to affect the average African much, as his governments werent trying to seriously pay the depts off anyway.
As for Fair trade, what conditions do you see in this for Africa?.

So you are cold. Good to see you admitting that.

I don't understand your question. Do you mean how do I see it benefitting Africa? To which I respond, if people are paid the value of their goods they can a) feed themselves and their family b) continue in their business, maybe even expand and prosper. If the people can fianlly afford medical care and education, the whole nation benefits. Isn't all this kinda obvious?!

You only see them as non valid because they are 'right wing' or not pc.

Once again you are, a) glossing over what I actually said and b) not providing a valid argument for your position.

I SAID valid in the debating sense, not common use of the word. Here's what it means: A valid argument is one with premises presented formally based on established fact and can be backed up with sources, and that assuming each premise is true the conclusion will be true also.

e.g. All healthy dogs have noses.
Fred is a healthy dog.
Therefore, Fred has a nose.

This is a very basic example of a valid (and sound, e.g. the conclusion is true) argument. Valid and true are not synonymous in philosophy or debate.

An argument on this topic of abortion will be long with multiple sub-conclusions. It would take me a day to formulate my argument. I offered to do this for Bluestripes2, but he declined my offer.

You don't have to formulate a properly structured argument however, simply write a paragraph defining where your opinion comes from, what facts it is based on and do so in a composed and rational manner. Then we will have a proper debate on our hands, not this snapping back and forth with insults. Ok?

Oh yeah lets discuss abortion for the umpteenth time again, what new fascinating views will we find this time?

If you want to discuss other topics, feel free to create new threads... :rolleyes:

If you want to discuss other topics, feel free to create new threads... :rolleyes:

You really arent much of a nice person, are you Cabra, what went wrong with you?

You really arent much of a nice person, are you Cabra, what went wrong with you?

Well, I was nice enough not to take any of your personal insults to seriously until now.
Congratulations, you are the first NSer ever to make my Ignore-List.

[QUOTE=Froudland]So you are cold. Good to see you admitting that.

Cold? Not really. Compared to you and your gaggle of sarcasm worshippers on here Im pretty warm and genuine. I would probably want to kill myself if I was anything like you.



I don't understand your question. Do you mean how do I see it benefitting Africa? To which I respond, if people are paid the value of their goods they can a) feed themselves and their family b) continue in their business, maybe even expand and prosper. If the people can fianlly afford medical care and education, the whole nation benefits. Isn't all this kinda obvious?!

The value of their goods are paid, they just dont get the benefit from this because of their oppressive governments, put the blame where it really lies for once.

And isnt that a good enough reason to display love and affection?
That's not love and affection, that's hunger.

Well, I was nice enough not to take any of your personal insults to seriously until now.
Congratulations, you are the first NSer ever to make my Ignore-List.

Your a deadset idiot.

Cold? Not really. Compared to you and your gaggle of sarcasm worshippers on here Im pretty warm and genuine. I would probably want to kill myself if I was anything like you.

your getting damn close to personal attacks now, be carefull




The value of their goods are paid, they just dont get the benefit from this because of their oppressive governments, put the blame where it really lies for once.
And as long as your willing to pay for the goods that are not fair trade, your funding these governments abuse of their citizens. All for a few $ off off your coffee....

That's not love and affection, that's hunger.

Whatever, this is getting boring.

[QUOTE=Hobabwe]your getting damn close to personal attacks now, be carefull

Thought nazi. :rolleyes:



And as long as your willing to pay for the goods that are not fair trade, your funding these governments abuse of their citizens. All for a few $ off off your coffee....

How about we just remove the corrupt governments instead? :eek:

Your a deadset idiot.

You crossed the line. I reported that post to the mods.

Thought nazi. :rolleyes:
That was almost a personal attack, i just warned you.. :rolleyes:

Trust you to take it to this extreme, I dont see it as violence, if a few whacks on the backside improve your childs manners then Im all for it.
Its not cowardly to discipline your child in this fashion, but it is cowardly to let them do whatever they like for fear of what other people will think of you.
Hitting a child will only improve their manners by making them too scared to do anything. Maybe you should look up the definition of violence in a dictionary, since hitting a person is violence. Not on the same scale as beating them to a pulp, or killing them, but still violence. The only cowardice involved here is in your failure to admit that there are better ways that violence to teach a child what acceptable behaviour patterns are.]

The weak govern through fear. The strong govern through love.

What facts? Facts you support because they prescribe only to pc?
Facts aren't facts just because you believe them to be true, they're facts because they aretrue. Things like: "I own a car", or "I am male". They're facts. "Hitting kids is ok", is not based on evidence, and is therefore merely opnion, not fact.

No Im not quite that extreme,
You could have fooled me.

but the Bible does hold alot of good stuff, that you could probably learn from.
I already abide by anything I could learn from the bible, thanks very much. Yes, I have read it.

The value of their goods are paid, they just dont get the benefit from this because of their oppressive governments, put the blame where it really lies for once.
The value of their goods isn't paid. That's the point of fair trade. In South America there are banana farmers being paid less than 1/10 of what it costs for them to produce the bananas in the first place. This is, admittedly, partially due to corrupt governments in some cases, but it's mainly due to multi-national corporations fleecing everyone they can in order to make as large a profit as possible, and the governments who help them

Thought nazi. :rolleyes:

Think what you like, but saying things like that to people is way out of line! You think I'm cold because I give a damn about someone other than myself? You don't know me, how dare you say something so rude and horrible. I see your parents smacking your arse for rudeness really made you polite. It must work!

I do not support a single cause because it's popular, I do so because it is the right thing for me to do. I see what is wrong with the world and I take responsiblity and try to change it. I don't even discuss it very often, only when it comes up or someone challeges me like you did.

How about we just remove the corrupt governments instead? :eek:

Jees. Do you know how trade works? Do you know that corporations buy home-grown products for dust direct from the producers? The governments don't even get involved, except for passing trade laws. Especially American and European ones that pass laws to keep us rich and them poor - on purpose!

You're nothing but an ignorant fool. You have nothing of any value to contribute to this thread, bugger off.

[QUOTE]

I dont know what you mean by your defunct genes, can you shed some light here?

Well it sounds like you cant have kids anyway right?

It sounds like your 'baby' husband too scared to assert any authority, which is probably why you call him a baby.

You can't understand defunct genes? defunct means not properly constructed. If you need more of and explanation:

I have very bad eyesight (20/3000);
I started out with reactive hypoglycemia, and though through very careful watch of my diet, I now have more than a 50% chance of it turning into type 2 diabetes due to my increasing insulin resistance that responds to nothing so far;
I have suffered from regular migraines since i've been 3 yrs old at least 2 times a month, severe migraines (temporary hearing loss and temporary blindness, nausea, vomiting, loss of inner balance) that put me out of commission for days at a time. If i absolutely cannot miss that day at work and I have a migraine, I have to have someone drive me to my docs office for a shot of morphine (no other painkiller besides codiene and aspirin can i take, but these last two have no effect on my migraines);
Irritable bowl syndrome;
Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder;
Chronic reoccuring Uterine Polyps;
Hyperthyroidism, I eat about 2-3 times more than the avg person, and still only weigh 120 at 5'10"
And to top it all off i suffer from a skin condition known as Allergic Contact Dermatitis and i'm allergic to anything that is synthesised (man made), this goes not just for my skin but everything else too.

Would you want to take the chance at passing these along? I've had test done showing that I have genetic markers showing a predisposition to these conditions

Now that I have bored you with my physical ailments Yes i "can" have children, or else i woudn't have been able to have an abortion before as I have posted previously.

My husband is assertive enough. I make sure that he is satisfied, in all ways that a man could ever want. Between that and work that pretty much sucks up all my time.

Your way is the only "right" way for you, no one else. The only way a person can make any decision of this sort is to look inside of themselves, and hold any decisions only to themselves.

Well, I was nice enough not to take any of your personal insults to seriously until now.
Congratulations, you are the first NSer ever to make my Ignore-List.
There's an ignore list? What's it do?

There's an ignore list? What's it do?

It's in "Profile", next to the Buddy List.

"Ignore lists are used for those people who's messages you wish not to read. By adding someone to your ignore list, those messages posted by these individuals will be hidden when you read a thread."

It's in "Profile", next to the Buddy List.

"Ignore lists are used for those people who's messages you wish not to read. By adding someone to your ignore list, those messages posted by these individuals will be hidden when you read a thread."That's boring though... those are usually the people with the least stable arguements. Besides, I'm always on the look out for Verfassungswidrige posts to report them. :D

[QUOTE]

Cold? Not really. Compared to you and your gaggle of sarcasm worshippers on here Im pretty warm and genuine. I would probably want to kill myself if I was anything like you.





The value of their goods are paid, they just dont get the benefit from this because of their oppressive governments, put the blame where it really lies for once.

Just in case it wasn't clear, my last post also responded to these remarks by Gessler.

And Gessler - if you were anything like me you wouldn't want to kill yourself as you'd be pretty damn proud of being a loving, compassionate, generous, creative and passionate person :-p

That's boring though... those are usually the people with the least stable arguements. Besides, I'm always on the look out for Verfassungswidrige posts to report them. :D

It helps if you want to avoid the temptation to feed trolls :D
Anyways, I reported couldn't put this guy on that list fast enough. That last post was just one insult too many...

It helps if you want to avoid the temptation to feed trolls :D
Anyways, I reported couldn't put this guy on that list fast enough. That last post was just one insult too many...Hey, I reported him for his screwed up Misunderstood thread and his holocaust comparisons... didn't seem to help though. Ah, well. :rolleyes:

Truly I like your poetic voice. However I feel inclined to notify you that the implicit assumptions within your poem, that the unborn child already possess both self-awareness, (that is awareness of itself as being distinct from all others), and the ability to consciously reflect upon its desires, are clearly flawed. Although there is much debate as to the exact time and circumstances that lead to a child becoming self aware, it is clear that it is impossible for this to have happened in the womb.
The reason is that self awareness comes about not through introspection, but through observing other people's responses to you. (In other words an isolated individual cannot become self aware.)
Conclusively, since a foetus is isolated from all others, it cannot be self-aware. In addition, since it is impossible for a person to be conscious of its desires without first being conscious of itself, this therefore implies that a foetus cannot also be conscious of its desires.
In summation, I think that people campaign for the rights of foetuses because they believe them to be similar to you and me, (i.e. self-conscious being possessing complex desires and feelings). This is because, they look and respond in a similar way to you and me. However looks can be deceiving. They do not reflect upon their desires and they are not self-conscious, they are merely organisms that react, (rather than repond) to the world in a manner governed merely by their genetic dispositions.
Conclusively we should be more concerned about the number of unloved, unwanted babies coming into this world who are not adequately provided for than the feelings of things that have no idea that they exist.

Truly I like your poetic voice. However I feel inclined to notify you that the implicit assumptions within your poem, that the unborn child already possess both self-awareness, (that is awareness of itself as being distinct from all others), and the ability to consciously reflect upon its desires, are clearly flawed. Although there is much debate as to the exact time and circumstances that lead to a child becoming self aware, it is clear that it is impossible for this to have happened in the womb.
The reason is that self awareness comes about not through introspection, but through observing other people's responses to you. (In other words an isolated individual cannot become self aware.)
Conclusively, since a foetus is isolated from all others, it cannot be self-aware. In addition, since it is impossible for a person to be conscious of its desires without first being conscious of itself, this therefore implies that a foetus cannot also be conscious of its desires.
In summation, I think that people campaign for the rights of foetuses because they believe them to be similar to you and me, (i.e. self-conscious being possessing complex desires and feelings). This is because, they look and respond in a similar way to you and me. However looks can be deceiving. They do not reflect upon their desires and they are not self-conscious, they are merely organisms that react, (rather than repond) to the world in a manner governed merely by their genetic dispositions.
Conclusively we should be more concerned about the number of unloved, unwanted babies coming into this world who are not adequately provided for than the feelings of things that have no idea that they exist.

This is graphic, but I think it would be hard for any pro-abortion supporter to look at this and say this should remain legal. I should warn that this picture is pretty grotesque, so if you may be offended, please do not look at it, as I am not intent on traumatizing anyone. The photo depicts an aborted child, so be warned.

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/freedom.jpg

First: Most people who argue against the anti-choice platform are Pro-Choice... there are very few people who are actively Pro-Abortion.

Second: Your picture proves absolutely nothing. There is no 'background' for it... is the foetus an abortion? Is it a fake? Is it the result of miscarriage? Was the foetus removed 'live'? Was it already 'dead' before the removal? WHY was it aborted (if that were true)?

Third: You are unlikely to score many points in a LOGICAL debate, by trying to appeal to 'icky-ness'. Hernia surgery LOOKS pretty grotesque.. does that mean we shouldn't do it?

I dont care for that poem, and not based on a political standpoint. Its crappy, has bad meter and rhyme, and ultimately is only self serving and comes off a little pedantic. The fact of the matter is, this issue is endless. Also its iritating. Oh abortion is murder! Oh, I have rights to my body! Jeez put it away. ABortion already is social anathema, we dont need to make it illeagal. we just have to stop talking about it. It will never go away, so lets just stop arguing and et back to making evil nations and stuff.

I've known women who had an abortion and regretted doing so, and women who had an abortion and didn't regret doing so. I've never met a woman who didn't have an abortion and regretting doing so.

I lost a friend a few years ago for exactly THAT reason. She left behind a four year old son when she 'couldn't take it' anymore. :(

I'd advise you to never assume that, just because it doesn't impinge on YOUR perspective, it doesn't happen.

I see that a lot of people feel very strongly about this issue, and are willing to contribute insightful arguments either for/against/on the fence. If anyone does wish to take this further, see the 'Rival Think Tank' thread and you can sign up. Abortion is an issue we will almost undoubtedly discuss.

What if baby Jesus got aborted? It's a haevy thing to think about... but I'm still leaning towards being pro-choice.

That was almost a personal attack, i just warned you.. :rolleyes:

No, it was a pretty apt discription.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]Hitting a child will only improve their manners by making them too scared to do anything.

I like how you say 'hitting' leaving it open for any interpretation, deliberately too.
The reason you people are so deadset against physical discipline is because you know it works.
Unfortunately you guys are incapable of passing this on to your children, and the good values it brings, because you dont really possess any yourself.


Maybe you should look up the definition of violence in a dictionary, since hitting a person is violence. Not on the same scale as beating them to a pulp, or killing them, but still violence. The only cowardice involved here is in your failure to admit that there are better ways that violence to teach a child what acceptable behaviour patterns are.]

Like what? Talking and explaining, one day your kid will just drift off from boredom from you, kids can work things out for themselves, most of what they do wrong is to test you, to see how far they can go, you by not setting down a physical punishment somewhere in place, leave the field wide open for them.
Your kids will end up having little respect for you, because of your cowardice not to physically discipline them.


The weak govern through fear. The strong govern through love.

Giving your child a smack doesnt mean you love them less, if anything it means you love them more.




Facts aren't facts just because you believe them to be true, they're facts because they aretrue. Things like: "I own a car", or "I am male". They're facts. "Hitting kids is ok", is not based on evidence, and is therefore merely opnion, not fact.

I see the evidence everywhere, kids who are spoilt precocious rude brats, are surprisingly never smacked. I saw one frustrated mother trying to explain to her 12 year old daughter(guess) she was doing something wrong, and got screamed at instead.
Kids who dont get physically disciplined, end up never growing up maturely, even when their adults they are still babys.

[QUOTE=Froudland] You don't know me, how dare you say something so rude and horrible. I see your parents smacking your arse for rudeness really made you polite. It must work!




You're nothing but an ignorant fool. You have nothing of any value to contribute to this thread, bugger off.

Got to love the irony here.

I would like to add my agreement with Stravatzia, people will always want abortions, regardless of whether they are legal or not. If they are illegal, "doctors" will provide the service in dangerous conditions for rediculous prices and more than a few women will be killed as a result.

If abortion were made illegal in the United States it would be a huge step back as far as I'm concerned, not because of the scientific evidence supporting the pro-life camp, but because in America it would be a religious agenda. I consider myself lucky to not be American, I live in a country where religion and state are seperate. Religion should never dictate political policy, it removes the freedom of religious choice from huge sections of the community. I hate the way US politicians talk about God in their speeches and the way some American voters decide who to vote for based on which candidate is the most devout Christian. Quite frankly, it scares the sh1t out of me. Religion and Politics just shouldn't be mixed in this day and age, in such multi-cultural societies as ours.

And to the people who think we "need more people", please, please, open your eyes and see all the poor and starving people in the world. See the over-population of the cities and the lack of jobs, see the children abused and tortured all over the world. See the millions of orphans who need good homes and the selfish couples in the wealthy world who go through expensive and invasive proceedures to help increase their chances of concieving a child of their own.

I seriously don't condone abortion as a valid means of regular contraception, same goes for the morning-after pill. But for those people who have abortion as an option open to them, please don't put it up for adoption, there are enough unwanted children in the world, don't add another.

I so agree. *wipes tear from eye*

What if baby Jesus got aborted? It's a haevy thing to think about... but I'm still leaning towards being pro-choice.

That was baby Jesus' first miracle, turning the abortion hospital into a barn-yard. Sure, he was aiming for a fully furnished private hospital but his super-powers hadn't hit puberty yet.

I like how you say 'hitting' leaving it open for any interpretation, deliberately too.
The reason you people are so deadset against physical discipline is because you know it works.
Unfortunately you guys are incapable of passing this on to your children, and the good values it brings, because you dont really possess any yourself.

What would you say to someone who agreed with you on abortion but who didn't believe in hitting their kids?

Like what? Talking and explaining, one day your kid will just drift off from boredom from you, kids can work things out for themselves, most of what they do wrong is to test you, to see how far they can go, you by not setting down a physical punishment somewhere in place, leave the field wide open for them.
Your kids will end up having little respect for you, because of your cowardice not to physically discipline them.

If you had read the thread on this subject you would have heard from plenty of teachers and parents who have managed to bring up wonderful children without teaching them the "valuable" lesson of fear and intimidation. I respect my parents and they never hit me. But I realise this will mean nothing to you, you have decided what you think of me and will likely come back with something about me not knowing what respect means or some other nonsense.

Giving your child a smack doesnt mean you love them less, if anything it means you love them more.

It only proves a distinct lack of ability to communicate with and teach children with creative and loving methods. What on earth leads you to that assertion? People who hit their kids love them more than parents who don't. The only thing more rediculous than that I've ever heard is your non-argument against abortion!

Kids who dont get physically disciplined, end up never growing up maturely, even when their adults they are still babys.

Well, I have to assume that you were smacked as a child when considering your attitude. And I'm sorry to say, but your maturity level leaves a lot to be desired! Firstly, you can't spell very well! Just look at this quote for a second, honestly! It's "they're adults" and "babies". You have an immature way of debating and you claim physical violence against children improves manners and yet you are even more rude than me! I never claimed to be polite, so you pointing out the irony in my post is pointless! You were most likely hit as a child and are incredibly rude, you insult people for no reason. I wasn't hit and am reasonably polite with occassional bursts of rudeness in retaliation against rudeness directed at me :-)

Which upbringing helped most against rudeness?

And still you refuse to back up your opinion against abortion, instead swinging the discussion firmly into another topic in order to avoid having to back up your flimsy position. This thread is obviously about to die, which is a good thing, and it will do so with pro-choicers having sensibly argued their positions and anti-abortionists sticking to "I'm right you're wrong and I refuse to talk about it any more". This speaks volumes about the merits/flaws of the two positions and the people who hold them.

Well, I actually think the poem itself wasn't really well orginized, but I think it's content was valid, emotional, potential mind-changing and yet un-offensive. This has inspired me to write a short story.

Just reposting a 'poem of rebuttal' against the original 'poem'. :)

Anakah Anakrousis: "Life Sentence".

I lived a life of suffering.
I lived a life of pain.
They made sure I was born, and then
they never cared again.

I didn't chose to come here,
Just as I won't chose when I go.
But, I guess the flaw in being here
Is, this way, I will know

The pain I'll feel, the hunger,
All the suffering I'll see.
I'll get to feel the hell on earth,
This has been your gift to me.

You played the part of God, when you
Forced me into this life.
You chose to judge. Your judgement chose
For me a life of constant strife.

You let your gods dictate my fate,
When you removed the rights,
Of someone else to chose my fate.
You chose for me these nights

Of constant hunger, and the torture
That comes with being born unloved.
And all because of YOUR desire
To please 'someone' above.

You chose abuse, you chose the pain,
You chose this hell for me.
I wouldn't hurt the way I do, if
You'd let me never be.

Remember, when you're feeling proud,
About this heaven that you sell...
You may have 'saved my life', but you
Have sentenced me to Hell.

</Bump?>

Aid doesn't solve these problems long term You must not have been paying any attention over the last couple of months. Here's a question, would Africa be in the state it is now if us white folk hadn't kidnapped a bunch of people to enslave, forced our religion on the natives, stole all their assests, forced them to give us all their money, not paid what their exports were worth and so on and so on? I may have to drag you to a new thread to discuss this properly, rather than hijacking this one.



Everybody has asked the question, and they learned to ask it early of the abolitionists, "What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!


You keep good company Froudland :)

To be perfectly honest, I don't think a fetus has the mental capacity to have thought. "Damn, I just realised... I shall never <insert over-the-top poem here>.."
It's not the mass of cells that are missing out, its the pro-life people who are missing out on a baby.
No, because the fetus/baby wouldn't even know that such things exist.
Also, the fetus/baby would not be able to talk, and therefore would only think in a mixture of feelings and unexpressable beginnings.
So know, a fetus not have the mental 'capacity to think'. Neither, in a way, does a 12-month baby.
*shrugs*.
Just my slightly idiotic point of view. No. Instead of abortion, when a person hits the age where the can A) No longer be useful to humanity, or B) wants to die, we use euthanasia.
That way, we can keep down population.
Also:
Everybody would have a child limit. Say, two children. After that, try to use a condom.

[QUOTE]

I like how you say 'hitting' leaving it open for any interpretation, deliberately too.
The reason you people are so deadset against physical discipline is because you know it works.
Unfortunately you guys are incapable of passing this on to your children, and the good values it brings, because you dont really possess any yourself.




Like what? Talking and explaining, one day your kid will just drift off from boredom from you, kids can work things out for themselves, most of what they do wrong is to test you, to see how far they can go, you by not setting down a physical punishment somewhere in place, leave the field wide open for them.
Your kids will end up having little respect for you, because of your cowardice not to physically discipline them.




Giving your child a smack doesnt mean you love them less, if anything it means you love them more.






I see the evidence everywhere, kids who are spoilt precocious rude brats, are surprisingly never smacked. I saw one frustrated mother trying to explain to her 12 year old daughter(guess) she was doing something wrong, and got screamed at instead.
Kids who dont get physically disciplined, end up never growing up maturely, even when their adults they are still babys.

I resent that, (I was never smacked as a child... I was shouted at) but you've just found an effective way to shut me up.

Congratulations!

Just reposting a 'poem of rebuttal' against the original 'poem'. :)

Anakah Anakrousis: "Life Sentence".

I lived a life of suffering.
I lived a life of pain.
They made sure I was born, and then
they never cared again.

I didn't chose to come here,
Just as I won't chose when I go.
But, I guess the flaw in being here
Is, this way, I will know

The pain I'll feel, the hunger,
All the suffering I'll see.
I'll get to feel the hell on earth,
This has been your gift to me.

You played the part of God, when you
Forced me into this life.
You chose to judge. Your judgement chose
For me a life of constant strife.

You let your gods dictate my fate,
When you removed the rights,
Of someone else to chose my fate.
You chose for me these nights

Of constant hunger, and the torture
That comes with being born unloved.
And all because of YOUR desire
To please 'someone' above.

You chose abuse, you chose the pain,
You chose this hell for me.
I wouldn't hurt the way I do, if
You'd let me never be.

Remember, when you're feeling proud,
About this heaven that you sell...
You may have 'saved my life', but you
Have sentenced me to Hell.

</Bump?>

While this is actually a better written poem, it is written by a man with no heart and speaking through the dark pit that was once his soul, and therefor, I could not enjoy this poem on any level.

Are you trying to tell me you'd rather have not lived than be alive today? Why not kill yourself then?

[QUOTE=Froudland]What would you say to someone who agreed with you on abortion but who didn't believe in hitting their kids?

Its not hitting, its smacking, there is adifference, you obviously have never been hit in your life. I'm not saying I advocate knocking out your children with a closed fist as you seem to be distorting it into, a clever tactic of the left, to present something as something which it isnt.
If they agreed on the abortion, good I guess, sometimes you cant agree on everything.





If you had read the thread on this subject you would have heard from plenty of teachers and parents who have managed to bring up wonderful children without teaching them the "valuable" lesson of fear and intimidation.

A smack on the bum distorted into a lesson on fear and intimidation :rolleyes: grow up.

I respect my parents and they never hit me.

Great, you must have been a placid kid.
And your right, you probably dont know what real respect is about, for you its probably along the lines of 'I respect my parents because they let me say and do whatever I want.



It only proves a distinct lack of ability to communicate with and teach children with creative and loving methods. What on earth leads you to that assertion? People who hit their kids love them more than parents who don't. The only thing more rediculous than that I've ever heard is your non-argument against abortion!

Well I think they do, parents who smack their children without fear of thought nazis like you patrolling in their midsts, waiting to pounce.
Who gave you the authority to think you can go up and tell people how they should bring up their children. HUH? WHO?





Well, I have to assume that you were smacked as a child when considering your attitude.

I was and worse, but I dont resent my parents for it.
They were doing it out of concern, something you need to wake up to.

And I'm sorry to say, but your maturity level leaves a lot to be desired!

Yeah well, sorry Im not a walking and talking matured corpse like you yet.

Firstly, you can't spell very well! Just look at this quote for a second, honestly! It's "they're adults" and "babies".

My spelling for the most part is impeccable, your just splitting hairs.

You have an immature way of debating and you claim physical violence against children improves manners and yet you are even more rude than me!

Theres nothing wrong with my debating techniques, if you hate them so much then simply ignore them, if you were mature as you claim to be, thats what you would do. :rolleyes:
Again, smacking your kids isnt physical violence.
Your stretching discipline to suit your arguement.


I never claimed to be polite, so you pointing out the irony in my post is pointless! You were most likely hit as a child and are incredibly rude, you insult people for no reason. I wasn't hit and am reasonably polite with occassional bursts of rudeness in retaliation against rudeness directed at me :-)

Im the same, I m only rude in retalliation as well, so where is your arguement here now?

Which upbringing helped most against rudeness?

Definitely mine.

And still you refuse to back up your opinion against abortion, instead swinging the discussion firmly into another topic in order to avoid having to back up your flimsy position.

This is how the left debates calling prolife arguements flimsy, but not even admitting how flimsy their own are, what are they based on? A womans right to decide what happens in her body. Well hang on its not really her body thats being pulled out brutally and flung into the garbage is it.
Strange that hating kids being hurt so much, that you have no problem with a developing one being brutally murdered. :rolleyes:

This thread is obviously about to die, which is a good thing, and it will do so with pro-choicers having sensibly argued their positions and anti-abortionists sticking to "I'm right you're wrong and I refuse to talk about it any more". This speaks volumes about the merits/flaws of the two positions and the people who hold them.

It speaks volumes that we care more about life, than you guys do, who hold the material things in life as much more important.
Tell me, in hindsight, how much respect would you have for your parents if they had decided to abort you, because they wanted to go to Europe instead?
And have a baby(not you) next year instead?
Your pro choice arguements are pretty much based on based on were right your wrong too, if you hadnt noticed. :rolleyes:

Many people have said they would rather be dead than born and that other people have no imput saying that being alive is better. That's true, but how do you know being dead is better? Few people have been legally pronounced dead and come back alive. Infact, my mother was on a plane one time on her way somewhere where she met an author whose books she had read. This author at one point had been pronounced legally dead with no heart or brain activity, but then she was revived.

Unless you've been dead, how do you know it's better than life?
Unless you've been alive, how do you know life is better than death?
You have to find out. If you are alive you can die, if you are dead you can't live.

We'll again, many people have complained about their lives being terrible and such. Well stop bitching and make it better. In the time you spend bitching and argueing you can improve your lifestyle and actually get something productive done. Be open minded.

Back to my favorite point of the argument.

Like I said before (PAGE 4 of this thread), people who undergo abortions should have to eat their aborted fetus. If it's just a piece of meat why not eat it?

EAT YOUR DEAD FETUS, IT'S JUST MEAT... or is it...

Like I said before (PAGE 4 of this thread), people who undergo abortions should have to eat their aborted fetus. If it's just a piece of meat why not eat it?
EAT YOUR DEAD FETUS, IT'S JUST MEAT... or is it...`

I concur. Its just an inaminate lump of cell matter right pro choicers, go on, fry it up then with alittle chianti, and serve it to the family later that night.
Lucky child:Whats that mum, pork?
Murderess: No its your dead baby brother or sister fetus sweetie.
Dumb no opinion on anything Dad: mmm smells delicious, pass the barbie sauce.
After all animals eat their young and afterbirth, why should we be any different.
Maybe, instead of being thrown in the garbage, all the fetus's could be sent down to the hospital kitchen and put on the menu, mmm fetus smorgasboard.

You crossed the line. I reported that post to the mods.

Come on. How old are you? You make yourself sound like a little #@$^!* when you say stuff like that. They didn't even use correct grammar!