NationStates Jolt Archive

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?

Well, at least it rymes. Kindof.

Congratulations you have proven i have a Heart you have found my Emotions.

Its so true.

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?

Not bad, as far as poetry goes. Nice, simple form and rhyme scheme. The short lines express their intent well, and taken as a whole the lines cohere well.

The argument is that women have the right to do what they want with their body. A vast majority of them are pregnant because they have already exercised that right. An abortion is the ending of a human life (as supported by DNA analysis). All pro-choice arguments fail to address this fact but prefer to call the baby a "fetus" or "lump of inanimate flesh". Recently, National Geographic released a film on 4D ultrasound. 4D because it is capable of displaying movement. The detail is almost as good as a b/w photo. In NG's documentary, a 4D ultrasound of a 7 week "fetus" was shown. The "fetus", though tiny, displayed fully recognizable human features, distinguishable head, torso, arms, legs, hands, feet, etc. It also was very active and was waving its arms and kicking. 7 weeks!!! Some argue that a "fetus" at this stage of development does not yet have a fully functional nervous system and has no sensation of pain. With this logic, it is acceptable to "abort" people with spinal cord injuries.

How, as a society, can we condone the murder of our children in the name of womens' rights?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0225_050225_tv_ultrasound.html

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?


Pretentious, preachy crap.

The poem is a tad infantile and basic, it isn't good poetry an a technical sense. But its simplicity makes its point effectively.

No argument will ever get people to agree on this subject. I myself am torn between positions, as I'm sure a lot of people are. I am a woman and am passionate about women's rights but I believe in reincarnation, so believe that an unborn child has a soul.

What tips me pro-choice is an alternative moral code that actually has little to do with either. Fact: Human beings are overpopulating the earth. We have done a brilliant job of stamping out disease and most natural causes of death in the wealthy nations and have kept the balance by continuing to exploit the poor nations and ensure that they continue to die of starvation and disease. But in the rich countries what is there controlling the growth of the population? Cancer, which we are trying to cure. Miscarriages and infertility problems, which we are trying to cure. And abortion of unwanted babies.

I'm sorry to be brutal, but we are actually a part of this world, our dominance over all things natural will be our downfall. When there are so many of us that we can't farm enough food or clothe everyone, when we are living in cramped and unsanitary conditions with dozens of people crammed into one dwelling because there simply isn't room to build more houses. Then we will see a return of killer diseases and civil war and we will wish we had been sensible enough not to attempt to conquer nature.

I say abortion is a valid means of population growth control, given our current obsession with making everyone live a long and unnatural life. If a woman or couple cannot afford to provide for their baby or do not feel it is appropriate to bring one into this world for moral reasons then that is their choice.

And before anyone brings up that old argument of not having sex if your not prepared to face the consequences I will say that sex for pleasure is natural and contraception is free in many countries, but sometimes contraceptives fail. We need better sex education for those who think they will never get STIs or fall pregnant and continued development of contraceptives to illiminate as many accidents as possible.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think a fetus has the mental capacity to have thought. "Damn, I just realised... I shall never <insert over-the-top poem here>.."
It's not the mass of cells that are missing out, its the pro-life people who are missing out on a baby.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think a fetus has the mental capacity to have thought. "Damn, I just realised... I shall never <insert over-the-top poem here>.."
It's not the mass of cells that are missing out, its the pro-life people who are missing out on a baby.

All living creatures are simply a mass of cells. Our basic elements are fairly simple and our physiology is complex. These same elements are present in a fetus. Yes, we are missing out on a baby. A baby that has unlimited potential. Every child aborted is an unimaginable loss for all humankind.

Yeah, those 'Little Angels', those aborted fetuses. :rolleyes: You guys seriously WANT more people? Seriously, we need less people. There has to be room for, you know, nature, and not just humans. At the rate we're going, even farms will soon be a rarity discussed in history books. Why? EVERYTHING WILL BE HOUSES! And, 'What if they cure cancer?', the classic argument. What if I cure Cancer? Or Bush cures cancer. Or what if the baby who would have been born would have ate the very last of a type of flower that cures cancer? Or what if it murders seven people and eats their toes?

All living creatures are simply a mass of cells. Our basic elements are fairly simple and our physiology is complex. These same elements are present in a fetus. Yes, we are missing out on a baby. A baby that has unlimited potential. Every child aborted is an unimaginable loss for all humankind.

Indeed, an unwanted baby, more likely to be abused - more likely to grow up mentally unstable and potentially do more damage to other humans in this over-populated world. An incredible loss.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think a fetus has the mental capacity to have thought.

Of course they don't have thought patterns based on previous stimuli and previous experiences. They do have enough conscious thought, however, to scratch an itch, suck a thumb, and fondle and play with various body parts. In the NG documentary they showed a fetus vigorously picking its nose. All of this, as well as waving and kicking, prove there are thought processes. You cannot accurately judge a mental capacity based on as yet unlearned sensory data.

Of course they don't have thought patterns based on previous stimuli and previous experiences. They do have enough conscious thought, however, to scratch an itch, suck a thumb, and fondle and play with various body parts. In the NG documentary they showed a fetus vigorously picking its nose. All of this, as well as waving and kicking, prove there is thought processes.


Shame, still, an unwanted baby is a burden on the human race as well as its parents and the economy. People go on about these precious fetus', but noone cares about the adults they may grow up to. As long as they have "potential" or theyre "cute and innocent" the sun might as well shine.

'What if they cure cancer?', the classic argument. What if I cure Cancer? Or Bush cures cancer. Or what if the baby who would have been born would have ate the very last of a type of flower that cures cancer? Or what if it murders seven people and eats their toes?

Exactly, I really hate that "But teh baby will save teh world1!!1!" Argument, its more likely it will grow up to be a serial killer.

Well, a cucumber is as likely to write that poem before I eat it. Sorry if I seem cruel, but a fetus/unborn baby doesn't know anything. It hasn't got the capacity of feeling or even thinking. Compared to the hell of a life it might have to suffer if it's born(poverty, parent's not loving it since they didn't want to have it) it's better not having it. It's painless and might even be merciful.

My other thought goes to the christians in Southern USA who want's to forbid abortion since it's agaisnt God. How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Bush???

Hope no one get's offended.

Indeed, an unwanted baby, more likely to be abused - more likely to grow up mentally unstable and potentially do more damage to other humans in this over-populated world. An incredible loss.

That is not true. If the child is unwanted, rather than abortion, adoption is the logical choice. Countless couples want to adopt, but are prevented doing so by overly strict adoption requirements. The financial requirements alone are ridiculous. That is why we are seeing so many "private" adoptions.
There is also the tendancy to overlook the "other" parent. Just because the mother does not or cannot care for a child, does not preclude the father's desire or ability to take responsibility for parenting. How many men have had to stand by helplessly as their unborn children are destroyed?

Yeah, those 'Little Angels', those aborted fetuses. You guys seriously WANT more people? Seriously, we need less people. There has to be room for, you know, nature, and not just humans. At the rate we're going, even farms will soon be a rarity discussed in history books. Why? EVERYTHING WILL BE HOUSES!

Here is a unique concept....personal responsibility. The same unprotected sex that creates an unwanted child is what spreads STDs. The same responsible behavior that would promote negative population growth would deter the use of abortion as a birth control method.

Well, a cucumber is as likely to write that poem before I eat it. Sorry if I seem cruel, but a fetus/unborn baby doesn't know anything. It hasn't got the capacity of feeling or even thinking. Compared to the hell of a life it might have to suffer if it's born(poverty, parent's not loving it since they didn't want to have it) it's better not having it. It's painless and might even be merciful.

My other thought goes to the christians in Southern USA who want's to forbid abortion since it's agaisnt God. How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Bush???

Hope no one get's offended.

Well, I'm totally with you on this one, Hata.
(Luckily I don't have to worry about Bush taking away my rights to my body - untill he invades the UK ;))

Couple of things, Zooke.
Birth control fails, I don't advocate the use of an abortion as an acceptable and repeatable form of birth control, but it does happen.

Women cut 5-7 years off thier lives by each child they give birth to, did you know that? Alot of women, including myself are at a higher risk of hemoragging and DYING if they gave birth. That means BOTH could die.

Sometimes abortion is necessary for medical reasons, as well as the selfish monetary and responsibility issues. Not everyone can give birth and give it away and still come out medically sound.

Hope no one get's offended.

I like the juxtaposition of that and the name "Hata-alla*." Paradoxical.

*"Hata alla" = "hate everyone" in Swedish.

On the poem: It's not very good. That's why it's not worthy of an abortion thread.

Even though the poem was a tad preachy, I found a sort of cold beauty to it.
Nearing the end where it said that we should "Rejoice at Sun and Star", that says to me "Appreciate what we have", as well as the abortion message.

I consider myself torn in position. On one hand I, too, believe in the sanctity of life, but on the other, I can see when some may need to abort. For instance, if the pregnancy would kill the mother, or harm her unduly.

If the fetus is a product of rape or incest, I could see a case being made for abortion.

But it should NOT be just an everyday contraception in the same vein as condoms etc.

I HATE when Bush supporters call themselves "Pro-Life".
So they care about the right to life of the unborn fetus and the wheelchair-bound quadruplegic, but ANYONE else? NAH!
All those people who died in Iraq, both Iraqi civilian AND US soldier.
That blood's on THEIR hands, too. And they have the gall to call themselves "Pro-Life". I don't think so.

To conclude, as I said, I did find it a beautiful poem, and reminder that life is a beautiful thing, but it was a tad preachy.

Couple of things, Zooke.
Birth control fails, I don't advocate the use of an abortion as an acceptable and repeatable form of birth control, but it does happen.

Women cut 5-7 years off thier lives by each child they give birth to, did you know that? Alot of women, including myself are at a higher risk of hemoragging and DYING if they gave birth. That means BOTH could die.

Sometimes abortion is necessary for medical reasons, as well as the selfish monetary and responsibility issues. Not everyone can give birth and give it away and still come out medically sound.

I would like to see the study that proves that carrying a child shortens your life. I have never been pregnant and chose adoption. Because of this, I run a much higher risk of breast and uterine cancer. At 54, due to my elevated risks, I have to endure a mammogram twice a year.

All women are at risk during a pregnancy. Some are at extreme risk. In these cases, and they comprise much less than 1% of the abortion statistics, abortion is a reasonable decision. As it is in cases of incest and/or rape, especially of a minor. But, again, all of these medically reasonable abortions are a very small portion of the abortions performed each day.

Birth control is not 100% effective, but it is better than 98% effective. Have you researched the number of known abortions compared to the number of births in recent years? Estimates are that there are 33 abortions for every 100 births.

Edit: I forgot to add that I had a complete hysterectomy at age 36 due to pre-cancer cells. My OB/GYN told me that this was not uncommon for women approaching menopause who had never conceived.

I would like to see the study that proves that carrying a child shortens your life. I have never been pregnant and chose adoption. Because of this, I run a much higher risk of breast and uterine cancer. At 54, due to my elevated risks, I have to endure a mammogram twice a year.

All women are at risk during a pregnancy. Some are at extreme risk. In these cases, and they comprise much less than 1% of the abortion statistics, abortion is a reasonable decision. As it is in cases of incest and/or rape, especially of a minor. But, again, all of these medically reasonable abortions are a very small portion of the abortions performed each day.

Birth control is not 100% effective, but it is better than 98% effective. Have you researched the number of known abortions compared to the number of births in recent years? Estimates are that there are 33 abortions for every 100 births.


I'll see If I can find the articles for you, Zooke - they were quite worrying. Apparently its due to the increased stress rather than cancer issues.

Yeah, those 'Little Angels', those aborted fetuses. :rolleyes: You guys seriously WANT more people? Seriously, we need less people. There has to be room for, you know, nature, and not just humans. At the rate we're going, even farms will soon be a rarity discussed in history books. Why? EVERYTHING WILL BE HOUSES! And, 'What if they cure cancer?', the classic argument. What if I cure Cancer? Or Bush cures cancer. Or what if the baby who would have been born would have ate the very last of a type of flower that cures cancer? Or what if it murders seven people and eats their toes? Western population rate is going way down, especially in Russia. We need more people.

What do you think? I liked its simplicity and its easiness of reading… I'm totally useless when it comes to poetry, so I'm not a great critic. I like the message it portrays as well… I've just made the third verse my MSN name.

Oh yes, and WTF is this whole "rape and incest" thing? I mean, rape I can understand, but incest totally passes me by… surely if it's consensual, it should by treated the same way as any other case? Destroying unwanted unborns because they were conceived from "undesirable" genes smacks of eugenics, and I hate eugenics with reason.

Western population rate is going way down, especially in Russia. We need more people.

What - 6.5 billion is not enough?
Or are you suggesting to export our "surplus" to Russia?

Well, a cucumber is as likely to write that poem before I eat it. Sorry if I seem cruel, but a fetus/unborn baby doesn't know anything. It hasn't got the capacity of feeling or even thinking. Compared to the hell of a life it might have to suffer if it's born(poverty, parent's not loving it since they didn't want to have it) it's better not having it. It's painless and might even be merciful.

My other thought goes to the christians in Southern USA who want's to forbid abortion since it's agaisnt God. How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Bush???

Hope no one get's offended. Ahem - "painless". When a foetus can be scientifically called a foetus, it has nerve endings and a brain and all. The method of abortion used for aborting foetuses involved dismemberment and is not my idea of painless.

If it's right to kill them in this way because they might grow up in an unloving environment, is it okay to kill them ten years after they're born in a painless way, because they're not loved?

Ahem - "painless". When a foetus can be scientifically called a foetus, it has nerve endings and a brain and all. The method of abortion used for aborting foetuses involved dismemberment and is not my idea of painless.

If it's right to kill them in this way because they might grow up in an unloving environment, is it okay to kill them ten years after they're born in a painless way, because they're not loved?

Ok, I really hate this, but:
You are at the moment talking to a person who would have very much appreciated it if her mother had had the brains to abort her rather than to put her throught the life she had so far.
I've had a miserable hell of a childhood, was abused by my father and consequently suffered depression, basically to this day. I attempted suicide twice and unfortunately failed both times. I know for a fact that my childhood will haunt me for the rest of my life, which is not helped by the fact that I'm being held guilty by my mother for breaking up her marriage and destroying her happy "family-life".

I, personally, would have had a better and easier if somewhat short life if I had been aborted. And you know what? I was planned to begin with...

Ok, I really hate this, but:
You are at the moment talking to a person who would have very much appreciated it if her mother had had the brains to abort her rather than to put her throught the life she had so far.
I've had a miserable hell of a childhood, was abused by my father and consequently suffered depression, basically to this day. I attempted suicide twice and unfortunately failed both times. I know for a fact that my childhood will haunt me for the rest of my life, which is not helped by the fact that I'm being held guilty by my mother for breaking up her marriage and destroying her happy "family-life".

I, personally, would have had a better and easier if somewhat short life if I had been aborted. And you know what? I was planned to begin with...



That's nice, now how about leaving that choice up to the other several million individuals when they grow up instead of aborting them before they even have a chance at life? Sorry if I seem somewhat blunt, but this is the one issue where I have a rough time keeping my cool...

Ok, I really hate this, but:
You are at the moment talking to a person who would have very much appreciated it if her mother had had the brains to abort her rather than to put her throught the life she had so far.
I've had a miserable hell of a childhood, was abused by my father and consequently suffered depression, basically to this day. I attempted suicide twice and unfortunately failed both times. I know for a fact that my childhood will haunt me for the rest of my life, which is not helped by the fact that I'm being held guilty by my mother for breaking up her marriage and destroying her happy "family-life".

I, personally, would have had a better and easier if somewhat short life if I had been aborted. And you know what? I was planned to begin with...

I'd just like to say I respect you for having the courage to say that on a public forum, I doubt I could have done in your place.

What - 6.5 billion is not enough?
Or are you suggesting to export our "surplus" to Russia?



Population in the West is declining while population in hispanic, Asian, and African regions is rocketing.

That's nice, now how about leaving that choice up to the other several million individuals when they grow up instead of aborting them before they even have a chance at life? Sorry if I seem somewhat blunt, but this is the one issue where I have a rough time keeping my cool...

The ONE? So all those other issues leave you cold?

Honestly, I don't want ANYBODY else to ever go through that. I won't have children, period. I'm using contraception, but if there should be an accident, I'm sure as hell going to have an abortion. For me, that would mean having to go to Britain or Holland, most likely, and it wouldn't be cheap either, but there is no way I'm going to be responsible for another poor soul going through something similar again if I can do anything about it.

Population in the West is declining while population in hispanic, Asian, and African regions is rocketing.

So we should compete with them, making the planet ever more crowded?

I'd just like to say I respect you for having the courage to say that on a public forum, I doubt I could have done in your place.

I'm feeling rather anonymus here, so that's ok. I don't think I could talk about it like that face to face with anybody. So, maybe that's a bit of self-therapy here as well

The ONE? So all those other issues leave you cold?

Honestly, I don't want ANYBODY else to ever go through that. I won't have children, period. I'm using contraception, but if there should be an accident, I'm sure as hell going to have an abortion. For me, that would mean having to go to Britain or Holland, most likely, and it wouldn't be cheap either, but there is no way I'm going to be responsible for another poor soul going through something similar again if I can do anything about it.



Not everyone, including your hypothetical fetus, would share your "Woe is us!" mentality, nor would everyone want to be aborted. I'm perfectly happy with my life and shudder at the thought of my mother aborting me. How about we choose this decision to be one of the ones we leave up to the individual herself, instead of society or her parents?

I like the juxtaposition of that and the name "Hata-alla*." Paradoxical.

*"Hata alla" = "hate everyone" in Swedish.

On the poem: It's not very good. That's why it's not worthy of an abortion thread.



Egentlig , jag tänka den här dikt är praktfull och värde om diskussionen vi er har.

Egentlig , jag tänka den här dikt är praktfull och värde om diskussionen vi er har.

The inevitable correction:

"Egentligen* tycker jag**^ att den här dikten*** är vacker~ och har ett värde för diskussionen vi för."

* "Actually, really, properly" = "Egentligen". "Egentlig" means "real, proper, actual" - it is an adjective, not an adverb.

** When a clause starts with an adverb, it gets the reverse verb order, hence "tycker jag".

^ "Tänka" = "think," yes, but as in the thought process itself ("I think of you" = "Jag tänker på dig"). When "think" means more "I have the opinion that," it is correctly expressed as "tycka". All verbs in the present tense get the -(e)r suffix, so "jag/du/han/hon/den/det/vi/ni/de/ tänker", and not "jag tänka."

** Den här dikten - "den här" is not sufficient on its own as a definite article. The definite suffix "-(e)n" (or in the case of neuter words, "-(e)t" must be added when there is a definite sense.

~ "Praktfull" means more "splendid" as related to appearance. It is better to go with "beautiful," which is "vacker".

The part in italics is just a guess at what you were trying to say, as it is gibberish in your version.

In response:

Den här dikten är torftig, och försöker medelst ytterst svag retorik framkalla större känslor än den själv uttrycker. Sammansättningen är omogen, och lyriken frånvarande.

Population in the West is declining while population in hispanic, Asian, and African regions is rocketing. Solution: relax those stupid damn British laws on immigration "back you go to Rwanda".

The fact that in Britain, haemophilia provides grounds for an abortion makes me really angry. I have haemophilia - not very badly but still, if a correctable jaw defect counts as a "disability", then what a real disability is I can't think.

Here is a unique concept....personal responsibility. The same unprotected sex that creates an unwanted child is what spreads STDs. The same responsible behavior that would promote negative population growth would deter the use of abortion as a birth control method.
That's flawed. Personal responsibility is not absent if abortion is legal. It is only absent if abortion is both legal and paid for by the government.

I never ... cried
That central cry "I am"


That's the inherent flaw of the whole thing, I feel.

I have a better poem:

You should have ended up in the dustbin.
The incinerator was too good for you.
When I heard that Eds was pregnant I told her to abort!
ABORT, ABORT, ABORT, I said!
Chuck it down the pan!
Bring me - a knitting needle!

- Patricia "Patsy" Stone

That poem is excellent. I think that it is so true. It's very good. God-inspired.

The key to the debate between YES ABORTION and NO ABORTION is not whether the fetus/embryo "has feelings or not" at the time of the intended abortion. One potential human life who may hold the key to solving one or more of the world's largest problems would be snuffed out everytime you and your lover make an irresponsible decision. You enjoyed the sex. Enjoy the baby too.

An abortioned fetus wouldn't be able to write that poem as A) it hasn't learned English yet never mind how to read or write it, and, more obviously, B) IT'S DEAD! DEAD, I TELL YOU! So, it can't even sit there grooving on it. The pain only exists as a guilt complex.

People have abortions. So what?

Not everyone, including your hypothetical fetus, would share your "Woe is us!" mentality, nor would everyone want to be aborted. I'm perfectly happy with my life and shudder at the thought of my mother aborting me. How about we choose this decision to be one of the ones we leave up to the individual herself, instead of society or her parents?

Because society and parents will make that desicion without asking the feotus either way: Some may want to live, some may want to die. Are you going to ask the foetus before giving birth if that would incommodate it?

That poem is excellent. I think that it is so true. It's very good. God-inspired.

If that's "God-inspired," then you really should question the artistic ability of your deity.

"Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room"

That's so poorly written, I actually laughed out loud.

An abortioned fetus wouldn't be able to write that poem as A) it hasn't learned English yet never mind how to read or write it, and, more obviously, B) IT'S DEAD! DEAD, I TELL YOU! So, it can't even sit there grooving on it. The pain only exists as a guilt complex.

People have abortions. So what?

Read my post above yours...

If that's "God-inspired," then you really should question the artistic ability of your deity.

*lol
True, he did write a lot better in the past. Just look at Solomon's Song ;) That's what happens when you entrust your publications to cheap ghost writers

One potential human life who may hold the key to solving one or more of the world's largest problems would be snuffed out everytime you and your lover make an irresponsible decision.

One potential human life who may be the next Hitler is snuffed out everytime you (the lover is insignificant - it's your decision as a woman, no one elses) make a responsible decision.

You enjoyed the sex. Enjoy the baby too.

Continue to enjoy sex and life. Have the abortion.

Because society and parents will make that desicion without asking the feotus either way: Some may want to live, some may want to die. Are you going to ask the foetus before giving birth if that would incommodate it? I'd rather not have my fate in a random person's hands as to whether I live or die - and most people would agree. This sound suspiciously like "I'm going to kill you for your own good."

*lol
True, he did write a lot better in the past. Just look at Solomon's Song ;) That's what happens when you entrust your publications to cheap ghost writers

They're called "holy spirits." Well, it does resemble someone writing under the influence of something...

I'd rather not have my fate in a random person's hands as to whether I live or die - and most people would agree. This sound suspiciously like "I'm going to kill you for your own good."

How do you know the desicion to make it live is better? You don't know what that feotus wishes for... nobody ever asked it if it wanted to be born. Either way, you play god.

One potential human life who may be the next Hitler is snuffed out everytime you (the lover is insignificant - it's your decision as a woman, no one elses) make a responsible decision.

Continue to enjoy sex and life. Have the abortion.

Then it's the responsibility of the parents and society to raise the child. What a society to promote fun and games and no consequences.

Every action has a consequence.

Then it's the responsibility of the parents and society to raise the child. What a society to promote fun and games and no consequences.

Every action has a consequence.

And the responsible consequence is abortion.

No one writes peoms about interesting things anymore. At least, no one who gets published on the interweb.

Yeah, because I feel it's better to abort the baby than have it grow up as a sort of punching bag.

It would not be unfair to see the abortion issue as unresolvable. Though they appear to have 'lost the battle', 'pro-life' has yet to give up. Yet even if abortion were to be banned, this may result in the return of backstreet abortions and the associated complications (deaths, disfigurements etc). Thus there is no victory to be had by either side.

The 'pro-choice' argument has to deny the humanity of the incumbent in order to function, otherwise abortion would be considered murder. Yet, ironically, the pro-life arguments are no better. The much-touted argument that 'every aborted foetus is a potential Beethoven or Curie' treats the incumbent as a means to an end, as opposed to an end in itself. Variations such as 'children are a gift' or 'enjoy your baby' are no different. Arguments such as this, along with the violent and criminal behaviour of some pro-lifers, serve to deny 'pro-life' vital ethical credibility.

A suggested solution is the new technology of artificial wombs. Potentially, this would allow an 'aborted' incumbent to be brought to term outside of the mother's body, thus giving the benefits of abortion, and then given up for adoption. Abortion without its one crucial drawback. An elegant solution, if it works.

First off, I would like to discuss the poem. Many people who have responded have criticized the structure of the poem, the poetic license, and other such attributes a poem expresses. The one thing these people forget is the message the poem tries to convey. It is that of sadness, remorse, and a longing for life. I'm sure that even if the fetus grew up to experience a painful, distressing life (even to the point where it wanted to commit suicide later) I'm sure that is better than not experiencing life at all. The point is to look at the message of the poem, not the structure it is presented in.

For my next argument... It appears that certain people claim that women have a better chance of surviving unscathed from certain diseases by committing abortion. Well, when one look at all the facts, this argument does not uphold well...

Many studies have produced evidence to show that abortions actually help breast cancer along. By having an abortion done, a woman is much more likely to get breast cancer.

http://www.mercola.com/2001/dec/26/abortion.htm

That is one link, however, there are many more out in the open supporting this. There are others, however, who continue to reject this and go out of their way to put women at risk. They put women at risk because they refuse to believe something 'so beautiful' as abortion is capable of coming back to haunt a person later in life. They spread these lies to other women, making their opinions change to facts in the mindset of these women.

Now, 'pro-choice' advocates claim that the developing baby is just a piece of meat.

Well, this holding true, I believe that people who undergo abortions should have to eat that meat. It's 'just meat' isn't it? According to the 'pro-choice' people, since it's not yet a human it couldn't possibly be cannibalism. So I say eat it, it's just meat. In order to have an abortoin, one should have to eat the fetus.

Now I am imaging that many people on this board are going to bombard my argument with controversial evidence and start waving the bloody flag of independence. That is fine, just show me the facts. When I say I am pro-life, I am certainly pro-life.

I don't support the American President George W. Bush in many of his endeavors, but I feel that I certainly would not have supported John Kerry in all of his (this is another discussion). I am pro-life because I despise the war in Iraq, feel that cancer in all forms should be cured, the people of Africa should be taught abstinence, not about condoms, and that life is the most precious gift one can have.

This argument has been brought to you by an average teenager who is in fact a 'pro-life' advocate. I observe some of the arguments of the 'pro-choice' party members as veritable, but the lies are imbedded with those truths.

I am glad I have been given the most precious gift of life, and I don't have to be religious to enjoy it. Everyone should be given the same opportunity.

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"
*snips*
What do you think?

I think it's bilge. What do you think?

Yawn! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The poem is a tad infantile and basic, it isn't good poetry an a technical sense. But its simplicity makes its point effectively.

It's better than half the amatuer poetry out there written by people pretending they know how to write. It is written in iambs. It also has a repeated pattern of 8 syllable and 6 syllable lines. I'd like to see a poem of yours.

I think it's bilge. What do you think?


Agreed :D

Well I think birth control is better for population control rather than violently ripping the limbs of the unborn. Adoption is out there for those who dont want to raise the child. I think it is quite a cop out to say I couldnt give it up but I can mash its brains in and rip its limbs off. Watch a video of an abortion it is very violent. People know when they are going to have sex and how hard is it to get a condom or insert a diaphragm and yes I have been in an unplanned pregnancy situation rather young and that child is now 18 and the light of my life. Another stereotype being perpertrated is only the unplanned children are victims of child abuse WRONG!! the majority come from the nicey nicey icky yucky nuclear PERFECT families. I think the criticisms of the poem due to content are rather unfair, of course a fetus cant talk , this person was using poetic license there.

Nobody said it was only unwanted children that get abused. But if I regard my own childhood and consider that I was a wanted and planned child, I can't help but feeling incredibly sorry for those that were unwanted.

Yes, contraception is out and available and thank god for that. But it's not 100% secure.

Pretentious, preachy crap.
And left-wing commie garbage isn’t?
Honestly, most poetry with a social or political message is like that.

And left-wing commie garbage isn’t?


When was the last time you saw a left-wing commie garbage poem in this forum? :p

How, as a society, can we condone the murder of our children in the name of womens' rights?

enter liberalism

When was the last time you saw a left-wing commie garbage poem in this forum? :p
I seriously hope you are being sarcastic. In debates about economic policy, I have been answered with poetry. As if, because it’s poetry, it automatically makes me wrong.

I seriously hope you are being sarcastic. In debates about economic policy, I have been answered with poetry. As if, because it’s poetry, it automatically makes me wrong.

There are POEMS about economic policies??? Wow... ok

As if, because it’s poetry, it automatically makes me wrong.
Like this dreck is supposed to prove freedom of reproductive choice wrong?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

There are POEMS about economic policies??? Wow... ok
Excuse my formality. But surely you have heard communist flavored poetry?

Like this dreck is supposed to prove freedom of reproductive choice wrong?

Pot. Kettle. Black.
Uh, I’m pro-choice Dobbs.

Excuse my formality. But surely you have heard communist flavored poetry?

Call me stupid, but no, I haven't. It's not anything I would read in the first place, as I'm not much of an economist, although I do enjoy good poetry.

Uh, I’m pro-choice Dobbs.

Hard to tell these days, with conservatives and liberals alike cherry-picking political stances. Humble apologies, then.

Hard to tell these days, with conservatives and liberals alike cherry-picking political stances. Humble apologies, then.
Personally, I prefer a world where people decide each issue separately, instead of following some mold of “conservative” or “liberal.”

It's better than half the amatuer poetry out there written by people pretending they know how to write. It is written in iambs. It also has a repeated pattern of 8 syllable and 6 syllable lines. I'd like to see a poem of yours.

Oooh! It has a regular structure! It MUST be good! Honestly, rhythm does not automatically make a poem good. I'm guessing you never studied Literature at school. I never claimed to be a great poet, I have written poetry, but mostly in my teens and when I read it now I cringe like hell. I'm an awful poet!

Poems that use imaginitive rhythm and rhyme schemes, that use unpredictable metaphors, poems that take the reader on a journey with them and actually move people without shoving a message down their throats are GOOD poems. I actually said that this poem got its message across well and that its simplicity was a credit to it in this case. But I didn't like it because it was preaching and too obvious, some of the lines made me laugh because they were so contrived.

I would like to add my agreement with Stravatzia, people will always want abortions, regardless of whether they are legal or not. If they are illegal, "doctors" will provide the service in dangerous conditions for rediculous prices and more than a few women will be killed as a result.

If abortion were made illegal in the United States it would be a huge step back as far as I'm concerned, not because of the scientific evidence supporting the pro-life camp, but because in America it would be a religious agenda. I consider myself lucky to not be American, I live in a country where religion and state are seperate. Religion should never dictate political policy, it removes the freedom of religious choice from huge sections of the community. I hate the way US politicians talk about God in their speeches and the way some American voters decide who to vote for based on which candidate is the most devout Christian. Quite frankly, it scares the sh1t out of me. Religion and Politics just shouldn't be mixed in this day and age, in such multi-cultural societies as ours.

And to the people who think we "need more people", please, please, open your eyes and see all the poor and starving people in the world. See the over-population of the cities and the lack of jobs, see the children abused and tortured all over the world. See the millions of orphans who need good homes and the selfish couples in the wealthy world who go through expensive and invasive proceedures to help increase their chances of concieving a child of their own.

I seriously don't condone abortion as a valid means of regular contraception, same goes for the morning-after pill. But for those people who have abortion as an option open to them, please don't put it up for adoption, there are enough unwanted children in the world, don't add another.

As far as I know, half developed babies don't write poetry.
While it rhymes and such, whoever wrote it is an extremist against abortion. A lot of people don't even know that once the baby passes a certain point, they don't allow the abortion...whatever....

All living creatures are simply a mass of cells. Our basic elements are fairly simple and our physiology is complex. These same elements are present in a fetus. Yes, we are missing out on a baby. A baby that has unlimited potential. Every child aborted is an unimaginable loss for all humankind.


The bottom line is the fetus is like a rocket with no stablizer. One has no idea which way it may go. It could go up, sideways or go around in circles and explode.


My point is this kid could go anywhere. If you could abort Hitler, would you?

The bottom line is the fetus is like a rocket with no stablizer. One has no idea which way it may go. It could go up, sideways or go around in circles and explode.


My point is this kid could go anywhere. If you could abort Hitler, would you?

My family has a Jewish background. But I would not abort Hitler. Because they is no way to tell that he would have done what he did. It is impossible to predict the future. For all we know, had he been born 20 miles from were he was born, he might have found a way to save the world from disease and starvation. And besides, even if I could go back in time and have him aborted, I still wouldn't. He wadn't killed 33 million people yet. He hadn't even been named yet.

Here is the attitude of the pro-choice jerk-offs:

Oh, and like ran into this cute guy, and I fucked him cause he was really hot. And he, like, didn't use a condom. and now I'm, uh... Pregnant. But I don;t want to look fat cause... Cute guys don't like fat chicks, you know? So, I had an abortion. By the way, I'm a 19 year-old with an IQ of 81... I think. Besides, I didn't like, have a job, cause I live with my parents. So I can't afford to have a baby. I mean, how would you take care of IT? Its hard, just like reading and stuff. How are we spozed to go on dates with guys if we, like have a baby to take care of?

Cabra West, you are unbelieveable. "I was abused as a child, so that means all children will be abused. So we should tear them limb from limb to save them from abuse. I know if I get pregnant, I'm going to have my baby\s brains mashed in so he won't be malnurished by ME and my HUSBAND."

Typical.

I heard that this country is trying to conquest this other country. I also heard that they torture the countries' that they invade people. So we should go in and do ourselves to protect them from the invaders. Aren't we smart and nice?

Here is the attitude of the pro-choice jerk-offs:

Oh, and like ran into this cute guy, and I fucked him cause he was really hot. And he, like, didn't use a condom. and now I'm, uh... Pregnant. But I don;t want to look fat cause... Cute guys don't like fat chicks, you know? So, I had an abortion. By the way, I'm a 19 year-old with an IQ of 81... I think. Besides, I didn't like, have a job, cause I live with my parents. So I can't afford to have a baby. I mean, how would you take care of IT? Its hard, just like reading and stuff. How are we spozed to go on dates with guys if we, like have a baby to take care of?

Okay, that's just silly. The vast, vast majority of women who get abortions do it after much thought - not about "Will guys date me if I get fat?" but about "Can I reasonably support this child?" Making ridiculous generalizations about pro-choice people doesn't help a pro-life argument at all.

As for the poem itself, it sounds like it was written by a 14-year-old trying to sound profound. While I'm politically pro-choice, I would never myself have an abortion, and even I laughed at the "death-cell" nonsense.

I'm sure that even if the fetus grew up to experience a painful, distressing life (even to the point where it wanted to commit suicide later) I'm sure that is better than not experiencing life at all.

I beg to differ. Like Cabra West, I've been suicidal, and I wish very much that I had never been born. For many people, it simply isn't worth it. I'm happy for those of you for whom the pleasures of life outweigh the pains, but you don't actually speak for everyone.

Here is the attitude of the pro-choice jerk-offs:

Oh, and like ran into this cute guy, and I fucked him cause he was really hot. And he, like, didn't use a condom. and now I'm, uh... Pregnant. But I don;t want to look fat cause... Cute guys don't like fat chicks, you know? So, I had an abortion. By the way, I'm a 19 year-old with an IQ of 81... I think. Besides, I didn't like, have a job, cause I live with my parents. So I can't afford to have a baby. I mean, how would you take care of IT? Its hard, just like reading and stuff. How are we spozed to go on dates with guys if we, like have a baby to take care of?


Bravo on the generalization. You have the best arguement so far about why I should become pro-life. Good for you! :rolleyes:


In any case, you assume that everyone who gets a abortion is reckless and is using abortion as a primary mode of birth control. This is false. In any case, do you honestly have anything scientific saying why you should tell others not to have abortions? I am tired of everyone siting religious reasons to keep others from doing as they wish. Is this decision affecting you? Does it hurt you? Does your existence depend on if some woman decides what to do with her body? NO! If you folks were so damned adimant about making folks go through pregnancy and childbirth just to make yourselves feel good yet where are you when the kid needs food? Where are you when the Woman needs money? Would you take in the children you wished born because you think it wrong for someone to make a choice about thier life and well being? Sence you seem to like to generalize, I will unload on you. Now, I want some answers RIGHT NOW!

Cabra West, you are unbelieveable. "I was abused as a child, so that means all children will be abused. So we should tear them limb from limb to save them from abuse. I know if I get pregnant, I'm going to have my baby\s brains mashed in so he won't be malnurished by ME and my HUSBAND."

Typical.

First of, what HUSBAND?
Second, life is abuse. And yes, I would have an abortion rather than exposing another one to this.

What's the baby complaining about? Most ppl who are against abortions believe that dead babies go to heaven; they should be happy for the baby. If everybody was aborted at birth, then noone would have any need for Jesus to rescue them from their sins, cause they technically could have none due to being aborted and all.

So when you see evil sinners like me that don't repent, just think that I could have been as pure and virgin as you if only I was aborted. Now I'm going to hell because all your pro-life groups convinced my mom. Thanks a lot, assholes.

A shamless attempt to exploit our emotions at the expence of a women's right to self governemnt of her body. There should excist no law that forces one person to carry inside their own body the life of another, without their concent.

A shamless attempt to exploit our emotions at the expence of a women's right to self governemnt of her body. There should excist no law that forces one person to carry inside their own body the life of another, without their concent.

I think I'll correct the spelling and then use that sentence as signature. Would that be ok?

Im a catholic, and im, dare I say, pro-choice. However i believe that both these two lobby groups have missed out on the entire point of the argument. No-one wants as many abortions. The problem is not in the fact that women should have control over thier body its that both women and men should be raised in such a society, that contraception is the first thought that comes to mind, because in the end, abortions are a messy business, and we dont need to have the skyrocketting amounts of them, all we need is for more education. If we can acoplish a new way of thinking, so that abortions are available but people do not need them (excluding rape, contraceptive failure, and accidents, and ignorance of youth), I believe it would be possible for peoples rights not to be infringed an also for a more sane level of abortions.

Im a catholic, and im, dare I say, pro-choice. However i believe that both these two lobby groups have missed out on the entire point of the argument. No-one wants as many abortions. The problem is not in the fact that women should have control over thier body its that both women and men should be raised in such a society, that contraception is the first thought that comes to mind, because in the end, abortions are a messy business, and we dont need to have the skyrocketting amounts of them, all we need is for more education. If we can acoplish a new way of thinking, so that abortions are available but people do not need them (excluding rape, contraceptive failure, and accidents, and ignorance of youth), I believe it would be possible for peoples rights not to be infringed an also for a more sane level of abortions.


In fairness, I don't think any woman ever on this whole world would regard abortion as a form of contraception. Nobody decides to have an abortion just like that, most women will consider all their options and possibilities first.
And if they don't, would you really want to trust them with a child? Do you really think they would make anything even remotely resembling a good mother???

Women who choose careers over babies when their pregnant, and abort, have nothing but my absolute disgust and loathing, your nothing but filth.

Women who choose careers over babies when their pregnant, and abort, have nothing but my absolute disgust and loathing, your nothing but filth.

And man who pressume the right to regard themselves as morally superior just because THEY will never be faced with that desicion disgust me.

Trust me, a lot more women would be willing to give birth if they could hand the child over to its father afterwards, pay a little each month and otherwise don't have to give a damn.

[QUOTE=Cabra West]And man who pressume the right to regard themselves as morally superior just because THEY will never be faced with that desicion disgust me.

Id have the same loathing for a man if it was possible.



Trust me, a lot more women would be willing to give birth if they could hand the child over to its father afterwards, pay a little each month and otherwise don't have to give a damn.

Bull-shit!

Fellow males, hear me out! Men shouldn't be deciding the issue of abortion. Men don't have to carry a child around for nine months; men are capable of escaping responsibility by simply running away. Men also don't have to deal with the dangers of an abortion if the child is unwanted. While men may be concerned, since it is their offspring, women need to be the ones to decide, since ultimately, they're the ones making the sacrifice.

Quote:
Trust me, a lot more women would be willing to give birth if they could hand the child over to its father afterwards, pay a little each month and otherwise don't have to give a damn.



Bull-shit!

I hate to break it to you, but not all women are maternal :p

So, don't believe it, and disgust women. What do I care? :rolleyes:

Fellow males, hear me out! Men shouldn't be deciding the issue of abortion. Men don't have to carry a child around for nine months; men are capable of escaping responsibility by simply running away. Men also don't have to deal with the dangers of an abortion if the child is unwanted. While men may be concerned, since it is their offspring, women need to be the ones to decide, since ultimately, they're the ones making the sacrifice.

You know, I think I like you ;)

:fluffle:

You know, I think I like you ;)

:fluffle:
Yes! :D
(until the day women are the only ones to decide the issue, I am going to be argueing pro-choice though...)

Written by one Bruce Dawe. I read that poem without catching the author's name, and yet somehow I knew it wasn't going to be a name like "Katherine" or "Mary" or "Amanda". I must have ESP.

Yes! :D
(until the day women are the only ones to decide the issue, I am going to be argueing pro-choice though...)

Thats why Im against women being allowed to decide, they will always take whats easiest, soon we will have no people.
Its a decision that should be made by both women and men.

I hate to break it to you, but not all women are maternal :p

Yeah whats with them?
Maybe they should have been men.

Thats why Im against women being allowed to decide, they will always take whats easiest, soon we will have no people.
Its a decision that should be made by both women and men.


Buddy, the world's population is 6.5 billion and growing. We are not going to run out of people in the next few centuries....

Thats why Im against women being allowed to decide, they will always take whats easiest, soon we will have no people.
Its a decision that should be made by both women and men.

What if the man and the woman disagree? What course of action should be taken?

They do have enough conscious thought, however, to scratch an itch, suck a thumb, and fondle and play with various body parts.

That's one of the sentiments here that worries me most. Movement does not necessitate conscious thought.

The only thing that worries me more is the distinction between the woman and the fetus. Seperation of the two is a recent concept and automatically tends to place the fetus's rights over those of the woman's. This may be good, it may be bad, I'm not sure. I don't think that one should take total precedence over the other, though, and since *someone* has to decide, it might as well be the woman, since hers is the body nurishing the fetus's.

Also, personal note, get over yourselves. They aren't "our" children. They're *her* children, and hers alone, unless you want to get into...(spooky voice) villages raising a child.

Buddy, the world's population is 6.5 billion and growing. We are not going to run out of people in the next few centuries....

Im talking about white people, buddy. Were fast running out of them because of the high rate of abortion, and low rate of procreation.
Womens rights is the white races deathknell.

What if the man and the woman disagree? What course of action should be taken?The woman's decision should have priority, since she has to do the real work.

The woman's decision should have priority, since she has to do the real work.

She only does the real work if she has the kid but, remember.

Im talking about white people, buddy. Were fast running out of them because of the high rate of abortion, and low rate of procreation.
Womens rights is the white races deathknell.As far as I remember, some places still have a pretty normal birthrate. If you're so concerned for the white "race", then make more babies.

She only does the real work if she has the kid but, remember.

Then what is your answer? What if the woman wants an abortion but the man wants the child? What does the couple do?

What if the man and the woman disagree? What course of action should be taken?

Seperation, why stay married to a woman who wont produce.

She only does the real work if she has the kid but, remember.An abortion isn't a walk in the park. You have no clue just how bad those things are, do you? I s'pose maybe "risks" would have been a better term.

Im talking about white people, buddy. Were fast running out of them because of the high rate of abortion, and low rate of procreation.
Womens rights is the white races deathknell.

What the #### does skin color have to do with an abortion debate ?

As far as I remember, some places still have a pretty normal birthrate. If you're so concerned for the white "race", then make more babies.
Dont worry I am, I cant do it all alone but.

Seperation, why stay married to a woman who wont produce.

Then you support the woman's right to abort the child, and the man can just leave her?

What the #### does skin color have to do with an abortion debate ?

The abortion rates for caucasian women are through the roof compared to other races, maybe thats what. :rolleyes:

The abortion rates for caucasian women are through the roof compared to other races, maybe thats what. :rolleyes:

So Caucasian woman take their rights and use them, good for them.

Im talking about white people, buddy. Were fast running out of them because of the high rate of abortion, and low rate of procreation.
Womens rights is the white races deathknell.

Last time I checked, both Europe and America were full of them. On both continents, they form the majority, by very far.
And why should I care about if there are more white or more black people on the planet???

An abortion isn't a walk in the park. You have no clue just how bad those things are, do you? I s'pose maybe "risks" would have been a better term.

My sisters friend just had one, and she said she barely noticed it.
The coathanger days are long gone, arent they?

My sisters friend just had one, and she said she barely noticed it.
The coathanger days are long gone, arent they?The fact that she didn't notice didn't make it any healthier. A risk doesn't necessarily involve pain.

Then you support the woman's right to abort the child, and the man can just leave her?

No I dont.
Im saying there would be no point in hanging around a woman that sees abortion asthe right choice.

No I dont.
Im saying there would be no point in hanging around a woman that sees abortion asthe right choice.

Well, then don't. Who's forcing you?

The fact that she didn't notice didn't make it any healthier. A risk doesn't necessarily involve pain.

Last I heard the human slaughter clinics were pretty safe and clean sterile enviroments.

No I dont.
Im saying there would be no point in hanging around a woman that sees abortion asthe right choice.

Well, then, say the couple does not want to split over the issue, but they still disagree. Once again, the woman wants an abortion and the man does not. What does the couple do?

Last time I checked, both Europe and America were full of them. On both continents, they form the majority, by very far.
And why should I care about if there are more white or more black people on the planet???

The birth rates for caucasians in both continents are falling.

I dont care if their are more black people than white, I just dont want to see white people die out, as it looks to be the case.

Last I heard the human slaughter clinics were pretty safe and clean sterile enviroments.

It's an operation. Every operation involves risks for the patient, and every operation can potentially end deadly.

Statistically, though, you're right. More women die because of childbirth than because of abortion in western countries.

The birth rates for caucasians in both continents are falling.

I fail to see the problem with that.

I dont care if their are more black people than white, I just dont want to see white people die out, as it looks to be the case.

With population statistics the way they are, you won't live to see them die out :rolleyes:

Last I heard the human slaughter clinics were pretty safe and clean sterile enviroments.
Last time I heard the Allies closed the "human slaughter clinics" in 1945.

Well, then don't. Who's forcing you?

Good point, but its a shame that a woman would prefer to still have an abortion, than rather not see that happen.

Last time I heard the Allies closed the "human slaughter clinics" in 1945.

They were reopened by the womens movement.

The birth rates for caucasians in both continents are falling.

I dont care if their are more black people than white, I just dont want to see white people die out, as it looks to be the case.

Why would it matter if white people die out ?

In a couple of thousand years we are all going to have coffee-with-milk colored skin anyway.

[QUOTE=Hobabwe]Why would it matter if white people die out ?

Alot. Pure white people are a beautiful race.

In a couple of thousand years we are all going to have coffee-with-milk colored skin anyway.

How dull.

Good point, but its a shame that a woman would prefer to still have an abortion, than rather not see that happen.Perhaps, but by banning abortions you wouldn't really change her mind and we'd be back in the "coathanger days" as you named them. I prefer abortions to dead babies in trash cans.

With population statistics the way they are, you won't live to see them die out :rolleyes:

Dont count on that.

And I like to think there will still be heaps of white people around long after I die, Im not self centred enough sorry to think that it only matters while Im alive.

Alot. Pure white people are a beautiful race.



How dull.

Let me get this straight : You would force every pregnant woman to change her life, plans, hopes, ideas, you would take away her right to self-determination because of your sense of aesthetics????

They were reopened by the womens movement.

And we're done here. You're not concerned with the rights of the unborn; you're simply enraged by the women's rights movement.

They were reopened by the womens movement.Very bad comparison, buddy.

Let me get this straight : You would force every pregnant woman to change her life, plans, hopes, ideas, you would take away her right to self-determination because of your sense of aesthetics????

Yep.
rape is a different issue of course, as is serious deformity, danger to mothers etc etc

Dont count on that.

And I like to think there will still be heaps of white people around long after I die, Im not self centred enough sorry to think that it only matters while Im alive.

Well, as you seem to be the only one who thinks that's the least bit important, why should it remain important after you die?

And, how long exaclty do you intend to live? It's not as though the Caucasian population of this planet has been reduced to 2 people and one of them wants an abortion....

Very bad comparison, buddy.

A pretty good one actually, the Jews were innocent and helpless too.

A pretty good one actually, the Jews were innocent and helpless too.

They weren't living inside other people....

Originally Posted by Cabra West
Let me get this straight : You would force every pregnant woman to change her life, plans, hopes, ideas, you would take away her right to self-determination because of your sense of aesthetics????

Yep.
rape is a different issue of course, as is serious deformity, danger to mothers etc etc

Thats disgusting, forcing people to do things against their will just because you like the 'look' of something.

[QUOTE=Cabra West]Well, as you seem to be the only one who thinks that's the least bit important, why should it remain important after you die?

The only one here talking about this at the moment on a left wing dominated forum :rolleyes:

Im far from the only one.

And, how long exaclty do you intend to live?

As long as I can.

It's not as though the Caucasian population of this planet has been reduced to 2 people and one of them wants an abortion....

Well lets not let it get to that stage eh?

A pretty good one actually, the Jews were innocent and helpless too.I'm sorry, but any arguement with someone that believes abortions are as bad as the Nazi war crimes is pointless.

Thats disgusting, forcing people to do things against their will just because you like the 'look' of something.

Yeah well, if women act like little children in such an important regard to human life, then they dont deserve to make the decision.

The only one here talking about this at the moment on a left wing dominated forum :rolleyes:

Im far from the only one.

I think left and right depends on your own point of view. most people here lean very far to the right in my eyes.



Well lets not let it get to that stage eh?

Oh, let's.
Because, guess what, I'm not going to contribute to the "white race". I don't want children, and isn't it nice to know that nobody can force me to have any? :D

I'm sorry, but any arguement with someone that believes abortions are as bad as the Nazi war crimes is pointless.

Worse actually.

The only one here talking about this at the moment on a left wing dominated forum :rolleyes:


You haven't been here long enough to make a determination as to the leanings of this forum beyond your own highly skewed perspective.

You haven't been here long enough to make a determination as to the leanings of this forum beyond your own highly skewed perspective.

Every other forum Ive been on has been dominated roughly 70% by socialists and leftwing libertarians, I dont expect this to be any different, and so far with a dozen different posters apposing my view and none in support, I appear to be right in this regard.

Yeah well, if women act like little children in such an important regard to human life, then they dont deserve to make the decision.

Oh, and men act so much more grown up? Paying for the child at best, if they can be found by the authorities, that is?

As the woman is the one whose life is at risk, she gets to decide. Simple as that.

They weren't living inside other people....

The principle is still the same regardless.

Yeah well, if women act like little children in such an important regard to human life, then they dont deserve to make the decision.

Aha ! your one of those people (and i use that term loosely) that feels men should be in charge.
As in: keep them barefoot and pregnant.

You sir, are not worthy to even be in the same room as a woman.

A pretty good one actually, the Jews were innocent and helpless too.

But they were killed out of racial hatred, whereas there is no ill-feeling towards unborn babies. It might not make a huge difference but it is something to think about when arguing this point

The principle is still the same regardless.

No.
One is a parasitic life form, endangering life and health of its host.
The others were productive members of society, living independent and not endangering anybody.

Oh, and men act so much more grown up? Paying for the child at best, if they can be found by the authorities, that is?

As the woman is the one whose life is at risk, she gets to decide. Simple as that.Seconded.

Here's my poem, slightly more left-wing, lol

Ode to my pope:

You are traded in, no more shall submit,
Sermons against women from behind your pulpit.
The pope mobile for sale; owner deceased;
The vehicle of patriarchy; homophobia beseeched.

Take the world’s resources, stuff in your bastion,
Food for the starving, provided they’re christian.
War gets you cross; loss a subject of papal ire,
Yet grant the leader of middle eastern quagmire.

Directing the biggest closed shop the world has known,
I’m not red, I’m green, leave the church alone.
Not red in the sense of your memories afar,
But red on your hands, pope, you certainly are.

African losses you caused too numbered to mention,
Sell the dogma, and disease throughout their nations.

Tis better to execute someone than save them, you cried. Report that to Sandy, just four when she died.
Charged with the ability to change the earth,
All the richer the world is to have had you at its hearth.

Many speculated how you slept at night,
Double standard it was your partner for life.
No more they speculate because guess what my dear,
You died like all and sundry, just like those queers

There you are pope, settle now, it’s just like the old days,
Red all around
But for the longest of stays.

-David Stone-

[QUOTE=Cabra West]Oh, and men act so much more grown up? Paying for the child at best, if they can be found by the authorities, that is?

Oh dont give me that garbage, the majority of men faithfully pay child support even if shes being supported by a new man, your deadbeat dads everywhere is nothing but the usual feminist lie, exaggeration and beatup.

As the woman is the one whose life is at risk, she gets to decide. Simple as that.

Thankyou, your childish view on men having none or little importance in bringing a child into the world confirms what I have been saying about women who see childbirth as a trivial matter akin to going shopping.

Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)

So, if you want an abortion in the first place then you admit to Adultry and Fornication. Add Murder to the mix and you have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

As far as speculating that they may grow up to be serial killers, maybe they will. But all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

Now, do you know how they abort babies? I warn you this is graphic.

They pull out the fetus and drive forceps into the baby's skull, crack it open, and drain pull out it's brain. Not to mention the baby, aherm "fetus", is flailing violently from pain.

I ask you this. How would you have liked it if your life was taken in that manner?

I swear, they are acting as if pregnancy is an STD. Women, if you don't want a child. CLOSE YOUR LEGS!

Oh dont give me that garbage, the majority of men faithfully pay child support even if shes being supported by a new man, your deadbeat dads everywhere is nothing but the usual feminist lie, exaggeration and beatup.
Got anything to back that up?

Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)

So, if you want an abortion in the first place then you admit to Adultry and Fornication. Add Murder to the mix and you have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

As far as speculating that they may grow up to be serial killers, maybe they will. But all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

Now, do you know how they abort babies? I warn you this is graphic.

They pull out the fetus and drive forceps into the baby's skull, crack it open, and drain pull out it's brain. Not to mention the baby, aherm "fetus", is flailing violently from pain.I ask you this. How would you have liked it if your life was taken in that manner?

I swear, they are acting as if pregnancy is an STD. Women, if you don't want a child. CLOSE YOUR LEGS!

Exactly, learn some responsibility.

[QUOTE]Thankyou, your childish view on men having none or little importance in bringing a child into the world confirms what I have been saying about women who see childbirth as a trivial matter akin to going shopping.

So tell me, besides hanging out in the hospital hallway, what does a man have to do with giving birth ?

[QUOTE=Penacostia]Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)

So, if you want an abortion in the first place then you admit to Adultry and Fornication. Add Murder to the mix and you have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

QUOTE]

Why are abortions only used by adulterers in your mind? :confused:

[QUOTE=Gessler]Got anything to back that up?

Most fathers pay child support, are you saying they dont?

[QUOTE]

Oh dont give me that garbage, the majority of men faithfully pay child support even if shes being supported by a new man, your deadbeat dads everywhere is nothing but the usual feminist lie, exaggeration and beatup.


The US Department of Health and Human Services estimates that 68% of child support cases had arrearages owed in 2003 (a figure up from 53% in 1999). Some non-custodial parents claim their payments are too high. According to one study 38% of Illinois non-custodial parents not paying child-support said they lacked the money to pay. Twenty-three percent used non-payment to protest a lack of visitation rights. Fourteen percent complained of no accountability over the spending of their child support money, while 13% said they didn't want their child(ren) and 12% denied parentage.

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support#.22Dead-beat.22_parents



Thankyou, your childish view on men having none or little importance in bringing a child into the world confirms what I have been saying about women who see childbirth as a trivial matter akin to going shopping.

Makes me wonder... if you assume that women can't take responsibility for their own bodies, why do you assume they should take responsibility for children?

[QUOTE=Gessler]

So tell me, besides hanging out in the hospital hallway, what does a man have to do with giving birth ?

That isnt the point.
Theres alot more to this than just the act of childbirth.

Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)It offends me. Here's your postcard.

Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)

So, if you want an abortion in the first place then you admit to Adultry and Fornication. Add Murder to the mix and you have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

As far as speculating that they may grow up to be serial killers, maybe they will. But all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

Now, do you know how they abort babies? I warn you this is graphic.

They pull out the fetus and drive forceps into the baby's skull, crack it open, and drain pull out it's brain. Not to mention the baby, aherm "fetus", is flailing violently from pain.

I ask you this. How would you have liked it if your life was taken in that manner?

I swear, they are acting as if pregnancy is an STD. Women, if you don't want a child. CLOSE YOUR LEGS!

When are you religionuts going to realize that not everyone agrees with you and using god as a reason for anything will simply be met with a shake of the head ?

[QUOTE=Hobabwe]

That isnt the point.
Theres alot more to this than just the act of childbirth.

Yes, the 3 minutes that happen 9 month before. And maybe the first two or three month of alimony... men really have it tough, don't theY?

Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)

I will.


So, if you want an abortion in the first place then you admit to Adultry and Fornication. Add Murder to the mix and you have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

How is an abortion an admission to adultery? Couldn't a married woman get an abortion? And since when is fornication a sin?


As far as speculating that they may grow up to be serial killers, maybe they will. But all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

The serial killer argument is only a counter to the repeated "cure cancer" argument by pro-lifers.


Now, do you know how they abort babies? I warn you this is graphic.

I do, but clearly you do not.


They pull out the fetus and drive forceps into the baby's skull, crack it open, and drain pull out it's brain. Not to mention the baby, aherm "fetus", is flailing violently from pain.

Do you know just how many abortions are abortions of this nature? I suggest doing some elementary research.


I ask you this. How would you have liked it if your life was taken in that manner?

I wouldn't care; I would have no perception of the event.


I swear, they are acting as if pregnancy is an STD. Women, if you don't want a child. CLOSE YOUR LEGS!

This is the argument that gets me the most. You hear it almost exclusively from men. Why is it solely the woman's responsibility? A man still has to insert HIS penis into her vagina. Yet it is the woman's job alone to abstain from intercourse. How is it that men are not as complicit in pregnancies as women?

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support#.22Dead-beat.22_parents

The arrearages wouldnt be ahuge amont of money, meaning owed in each individual case, and I agree with the stats of men who wont pay on the basis of uncertain fatherhood, alot of western girls today are practically unpaid whores.




[QUOTE]Makes me wonder... if you assume that women can't take responsibility for their own bodies, why do you assume they should take responsibility for children?

Precisely for that reason.

Why are abortions only used by adulterers in your mind?

You speak of rape victims, I have sympathy for rape victims but not when they have an abortion. I said it before, all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

[QUOTE=Laerod]

Most fathers pay child support, are you saying they dont?Most could mean "more than half". That leaves a lot of women with children that don't get supported. My father doesn't pay much child support. Certainly a lot less than he's sposed to.

Anyway, I was asking you to provide some source for your supposition, as Cabra West has supported hers.

[QUOTE=Hobabwe]

That isnt the point.
Theres alot more to this than just the act of childbirth.

Yes, theres the woman carrying the baby to be for 9 months inside of her, thats dangerous. But a man has nothing to do with that.

Theres the actual act of giving birth, a man doesnt take that risk.

After that both parents shuold be there to raise the child, but if an abortion takes place, there is no child, hence no man needed.

When are you religionuts going to realize that not everyone agrees with you and using god as a reason for anything will simply be met with a shake of the head ?

We dont care if you dont agree.

And since when is fornication a sin?

Fornication is sex before marriage, and yes. It is a sin.

[QUOTE=Gessler]
Yes, theres the woman carrying the baby to be for 9 months inside of her, thats dangerous. But a man has nothing to do with that.
Theres the actual act of giving birth, a man doesnt take that risk.
After that both parents shuold be there to raise the child, but if an abortion takes place, there is no child, hence no man needed.

So while the woman is pregnantfor 9 months the man can take off fishing then?

Fornication is sex before marriage, and yes. It is a sin.
Amen.

You speak of rape victims, I have sympathy for rape victims but not when they have an abortion. I said it before, all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

Are rape victims considered adulterers by the Bible? I'm genuinely interested on your argument here. I dont mean to belittle it

You speak of rape victims, I have sympathy for rape victims but not when they have an abortion. I said it before, all children are innocent in the eyes of God.What's the point of having sympathy with them then? You're willing to sympathize, but you demand that they spend nine months bearing evidence of a traumatic experience? And that's only if they give the child away after birth. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to be reminded of something that horrible every time I'd see the kid. Some women might be able to overcome this situation and remain unaffected, but even if a small fraction of them wouldn't be able to bear it, abortion in the case of rape MUST be allowed.

We dont care if you dont agree.

edit: sorry, i got pissed.

To me, god never validates ANY argument, roughly 1 billion people adhere to christianity in one form or another, that means 5 out of 6 people do NOT agree with arguments made based on what a suposed christian deity wants/thinks. Please take this into account when your trying to convince people that do not adhere to your (form of) religion.

God is dead, your arguments stopped being valid, come up with soemthing that doesnt involve an invisible, intangible dude on a cloud please.

You know its not nice to insult a persons religion or use it as an argument. It just makes you as bad as what you would consider "religious nuts"

[QUOTE=Hobabwe]

So while the woman is pregnantfor 9 months the man can take off fishing then?

Well, a very large number do...

We dont care if you dont agree.We can agree on something! That's a first...

[QUOTE=Gessler]Most could mean "more than half". That leaves a lot of women with children that don't get supported. My father doesn't pay much child support. Certainly a lot less than he's sposed to.
Anyway, I was asking you to provide some source for your supposition, as Cabra West has supported hers.

http://www.aia.net.au/fathers/index.html

God is dead, your arguments stopped being valid, come up with soemthing that doesnt involve an invisible, intangible dude on a cloud please.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I pray for your salvation.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

Well, a very large number do...

Well that shouldnt matter right,

You dont need us remember?

We can agree on something! That's a first...

raises coke

[QUOTE=Cabra West]

Well that shouldnt matter right,

You dont need us remember?

Not for having an abortion, right. We might need help raising the child, but if that's not available as it's gone fishing... well....

[QUOTE=Laerod]

http://www.aia.net.au/fathers/index.htmlGet me some statistics from a government or respectable source. Something that calls itself fathers for equality what we would call "biased", in case you didn't know.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I pray for your salvation.

Please don't. Ive read the bible and any deity that thinks the way yours does isnt worthy of my worship and i certainly dont want to be saved by it.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

Yes, the 3 minutes that happen 9 month before. And maybe the first two or three month of alimony... men really have it tough, don't theY?

Yes, we have to listen to you women whine nonstop about shit.

[QUOTE=Cabra West]

Yes, we have to listen to you women whine nonstop about shit.

Go fishing then, you wont have to listen ;)

[QUOTE=Gessler]Get me some statistics from a government or respectable source. Something that calls itself fathers for equality what we would call "biased", in case you didn't know.

Its only one of the male eqivalents of the seventys womens movements, be prepared, you may have to start taking these sources more seriously in the future or face legal actions.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

Go fishing then, you wont have to listen ;)

Thts why we do ;)

[QUOTE=Cabra West]

Yes, we have to listen to you women whine nonstop about shit.

Ok, that's it, I guess.
That's not a discussion any more, and I don't see the point in getting insulted in every second post.
Thanks for your opinion, it did broaden my horizon.

[QUOTE=Laerod]

Its only one of the male eqivalents of the seventys womens movements, be prepared, you may have to start taking these sources more seriously in the future or face legal actions.

You may have noticed that I provided data from an independent source, not a women's lib one...

Its only one of the male eqivalents of the seventys womens movements, be prepared, you may have to start taking these sources more seriously in the future or face legal actions.Look, if you want to use those sources, then we are allowed to use feminist sites that claim all men are evil. That would even out the bias. I'm opposed to this. Get a real source

Look, if you want to use those sources, then we are allowed to use feminist sites that claim all men are evil. That would even out the bias. I'm opposed to this. Get a real source

It is just as real as any government source.
And probably alot more truthful.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

You may have noticed that I provided data from an independent source, not a women's lib one...

As womens lib heavily influences government departments through fear and intimidation tactics using such methods as slander or 'calling out,' I take them with a pinch of salt now to say the least.

[QUOTE=Cabra West]

As womens lib heavily influences government departments through fear and intimidation tactics using such methods as slander or 'calling out,' I take them with a pinch of salt now to say the least.

Oh the women lib. groups are oppressing men!! The horror... The horror...

The Beethoven/massmurderer argument is interesting, but you'd have to give birth to a very large number of children before seeing any differens.

What we DO know is that every single child in the western world will grow up eating, using electricity, pulluting, and create some 1000 kilograms of trash. That's for sure, and we can't really afford that.

I personally hope that the Indians get a population control program going soon. There's no telling what might happen otherwise.

BTW, congratulations to China. If they don't go TOO far, their population control program works fine. Too bad it takes a dictatorship to make it work.

Amestria'][QUOTE=Gessler]

Oh the women lib. groups are oppressing men!! The horror... The horror...

You mean you just noticed? :rolleyes:

It slightly amazes me how many people have created new nations just to discuss this topic...

Either way, everyone, I'd like to intoduce Gessler, the poster boy for Pro-Abortion.

BTW, congratulations to China. If they don't go TOO far, their population control program works fine. Too bad it takes a dictatorship to make it work.[/QUOTE]

Don't congradulate China, their policy is a brutal neccessity created by the Moeist regimes unwillingness to establish population reduction measures/programs and family planing in the 60's and 70's. The one child policy has resulted in many unfortunate developments, such as more men then women (producing unrest) and many dead children (girls disgarded at birth). Fortunatly the government has been taking steps to remedy these problems.

[QUOTE='[NS]Amestria']

You mean you just noticed? :rolleyes:

Are men really so weak and pathetic that equality threatens them?

Whats wrong, can't deal with a little payback for the fifties?

Amestria'][QUOTE=Gessler]

Are men really so weak and pathetic that equality threatens them?

Whats wrong, can't deal with a little payback for the fifties?
Not all men, if it makes you feel better :D

[QUOTE='[NS]Amestria']
Not all men, if it makes you feel better :D

Thats nice to know ;)

Abortion would never have been invented if people accually lived morally and as God instructed. (If that offends you, send me a post card from your spot in hell)

So, if you want an abortion in the first place then you admit to Adultry and Fornication. Add Murder to the mix and you have a one-way ticket to eternal damnation.

As far as speculating that they may grow up to be serial killers, maybe they will. But all children are innocent in the eyes of God.

Now, do you know how they abort babies? I warn you this is graphic.

They pull out the fetus and drive forceps into the baby's skull, crack it open, and drain pull out it's brain. Not to mention the baby, aherm "fetus", is flailing violently from pain.

I ask you this. How would you have liked it if your life was taken in that manner?

I swear, they are acting as if pregnancy is an STD. Women, if you don't want a child. CLOSE YOUR LEGS!

Ugh! Why should I value anything from a god that uses guilt to make it's followers do as it wishes. To me using someone's sense of guilt to waiver their "free will", their ability to choose is disgusting. Sex feels good because it is good. It lowers our stress lvl, and for those who choose, keeps the human race growing.

Parenthood is job that should only be taken by those who want to do. Parenting is an all consuming job that should only be for the ones who truly wish to fufill it. Forcing someone into this job only creates more problems down the line for the family and any of those who may be cuaght up in it.

My body my right. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the pleasures that nature gave us. Besides there are other forms of birth control besides abstinence, one of them being as old as the Egyptians: Condoms!

The argument is that women have the right to do what they want with their body. A vast majority of them are pregnant because they have already exercised that right. An abortion is the ending of a human life (as supported by DNA analysis). All pro-choice arguments fail to address this fact but prefer to call the baby a "fetus" or "lump of inanimate flesh". Recently, National Geographic released a film on 4D ultrasound. 4D because it is capable of displaying movement. The detail is almost as good as a b/w photo. In NG's documentary, a 4D ultrasound of a 7 week "fetus" was shown. The "fetus", though tiny, displayed fully recognizable human features, distinguishable head, torso, arms, legs, hands, feet, etc. It also was very active and was waving its arms and kicking. 7 weeks!!! Some argue that a "fetus" at this stage of development does not yet have a fully functional nervous system and has no sensation of pain. With this logic, it is acceptable to "abort" people with spinal cord injuries.

How, as a society, can we condone the murder of our children in the name of womens' rights?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0225_050225_tv_ultrasound.html

errr....
the same way countries can be bombed back into the stone age in the name of freedom?

I'm sorry you feel that way. I pray for your salvation.

some of us don't want your mentally-sick god's "salvation". i would rather have the salvation from a god who has respected my own choices that I've made in my life.

Christians make me want to puke. The Catholic church is the most hypocritical organisation this planet has ever seen. Murder is wrong, numero uno commandment and yet it's ok if the victim is killed in the name of God Almighty. The Inquisition sought out people who disagreed with the church and systematically subjected them to torture and death, just because the church was SCARED of free will! Something God supposedly gave us to use.

Catholics are the reason for the over population and poor education of the masses. Friends of mine who went to Catholic school are so fucked up in the head because they don't know their arse from their elbow, they will most likely end up as breeding machines for men who find it all too easy to preach the negative word about contraception (Every sperm is sacred...) and sex for pleasure is wrong even between married couples. It's not them churning out the sprog every nine months.

The Catholic church is a thinly disguised movement by men to control and dominate women and the population at large. And it's not just the Catholics, most of North America is Protestant or some variety of and after a long battle, the South finally won the civil war. Congratulations, there is a Texan madman with his finger on the button, spouting Christian propaganda as his justification for policy and keeping the blackies down and out while his white oil buddies get even fatter and richer.

And to the tits who say more caucasion women have abortions - yeah guess why? Because we managed to keep slavery going by a different name so successfully that we live in luxury while Black people all over the world die of starvation and disease - hello HIV crisis in Africa thanks to Catholic evangelists and the spread of north-western morality that devalues the village community in favour of mass civilization, annonymity and corporate crime :-)

Most people in the world are not Christian, find a secular argument and stop praying for people who hate what prayer stands for. Respect free will, respect humanity for all its flaws and leave human rights alone.

Oh and Penacostia: Women, if you don't want a child. CLOSE YOUR LEGS!

Ok, you're entitled to think that about yourself, but shouldn't you couple it with "Men zip up your fly"? Or are you saying that only women should abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy? Shouldn't men who don't want children do the same?

NOTE: "blackies" is not my word, I was speaking in Redneck.
ALSO: I do not have a problem with decent individual Christians, I know several lovely people who happen to be Christian. My issue is with the organised church and its poor history of human rights abuses and paranoid domination of the populace the worldwide.

Yeah, I go with the above fully. Except I'd extend my squeamish feelings to all religions. I'd rather dance with the devil than be mates with something that made this. It's a bit of a mess, not something I'd be proud of.

Onto the poetry. I respect the sentiment, but crap poetry doesn't bring out the best in people. Likewise, I respect veganism, but the poetry of Bernie Jones just makes me want to go smash eggs.

Ok, you're entitled to think that about yourself, but shouldn't you couple it with "Men zip up your fly"? Or are you saying that only women should abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy? Shouldn't men who don't want children do the same?
Nice to hear a well-spoken voice of reason once in a while. Too bad you are here as well.
Please tell me how men would not abstain when their women do? Have sex with other men? Well, fine, but there is no chance of getting pregnant there. Abstinence as contraception works even if one party does not want it. Seems logical, eh?

Nice to hear a well-spoken voice of reason once in a while. Too bad you are here as well.
Please tell me how men would not abstain when their women do? Have sex with other men? Well, fine, but there is no chance of getting pregnant there. Abstinence as contraception works even if one party does not want it. Seems logical, eh?

He means that the responsibility is always lain down at womens feet. Its both parties responsibility that the proper precautions are taken, not just one of them.

The argument is that women have the right to do what they want with their body. A vast majority of them are pregnant because they have already exercised that right. An abortion is the ending of a human life (as supported by DNA analysis). All pro-choice arguments fail to address this fact but prefer to call the baby a "fetus" or "lump of inanimate flesh". Recently, National Geographic released a film on 4D ultrasound. 4D because it is capable of displaying movement. The detail is almost as good as a b/w photo. In NG's documentary, a 4D ultrasound of a 7 week "fetus" was shown. The "fetus", though tiny, displayed fully recognizable human features, distinguishable head, torso, arms, legs, hands, feet, etc. It also was very active and was waving its arms and kicking. 7 weeks!!! Some argue that a "fetus" at this stage of development does not yet have a fully functional nervous system and has no sensation of pain. With this logic, it is acceptable to "abort" people with spinal cord injuries.

How, as a society, can we condone the murder of our children in the name of womens' rights?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0225_050225_tv_ultrasound.html
Now, I know you probably lied to us because you figured most of us wouldn't bother to click your link, however, your own article states that the earliest movement of any sort isn't detected until 8 weeks.

Also, it isn't a fetus at 7 weeks, it's an embryo. It becomes a fetus at the end of the first trimester, 12 weeks in. How about you learn something about pregnancy before you advocate forcing women to go on with them, ok?

He means that the responsibility is always lain down at womens feet. Its both parties responsibility that the proper precautions are taken, not just one of them.
Thanks, Captain Obvious! You saved the day once again! :D
Look, either both agree to stay abstinent in order to not multiply or they dont. With abstinence both sexes do exactly the same, nothing. There is no responsibility laid down expressively on any party, as it is the case with the pill or a condom.
Proper precautions are needed with any other method of birth control, but not with saying "no".

Thanks, Captain Obvious! You saved the day once again! :D
Look, either both agree to stay abstinent in order to not multiply or they dont. With abstinence both sexes do exactly the same, nothing. There is no responsibility laid down expressively on any party, as it is the case with the pill or a condom.
Proper precautions are needed with any other method of birth control, but not with saying "no".

I know it was dead obvious, the thing is that every celebasist (yes thats a word as of 2 minutes ago) calls for women to keep their legs crossed, never for men to keep their fly up.

My family has a Jewish background. But I would not abort Hitler. Because they is no way to tell that he would have done what he did. It is impossible to predict the future. For all we know, had he been born 20 miles from were he was born, he might have found a way to save the world from disease and starvation. And besides, even if I could go back in time and have him aborted, I still wouldn't. He wadn't killed 33 million people yet. He hadn't even been named yet.
Hitler came very close to being aborted, ironically. The doctor talked his mother out of it.

Here is the attitude of the pro-choice jerk-offs:

Oh, and like ran into this cute guy, and I fucked him cause he was really hot. And he, like, didn't use a condom. and now I'm, uh... Pregnant. But I don;t want to look fat cause... Cute guys don't like fat chicks, you know? So, I had an abortion. By the way, I'm a 19 year-old with an IQ of 81... I think. Besides, I didn't like, have a job, cause I live with my parents. So I can't afford to have a baby. I mean, how would you take care of IT? Its hard, just like reading and stuff. How are we spozed to go on dates with guys if we, like have a baby to take care of?
Will someone please pull up the stats on the number of women who have abortions who are already married and already have other children, please?

Im talking about white people, buddy. Were fast running out of them because of the high rate of abortion, and low rate of procreation.
Womens rights is the white races deathknell.


So, do I start making the Hitler and Nazi jokes now?

I know it was dead obvious, the thing is that every celebasist (yes thats a word as of 2 minutes ago) calls for women to keep their legs crossed, never for men to keep their fly up.
Not true, abstinence is preached universally, its just that uninformed moralistic bigots blame the woman only, a fringe oppinion spawned by outdated gender roles. The so often dismissed RCC, as the biggest champion for abstinence, preaches equality, as do those sex-ed school programms who place abstinence before other methods of birth control. Whatever ones view on the whole issue, it doesnt help to repeat idiocies and claim them to be the only argument put forward.

Will someone please pull up the stats on the number of women who have abortions who are already married and already have other children, please?
What for? He is dead set in his view, and uses transparent simplistic examples to discredit the whole concept of choice. Logic, as sharp a tool it may be for the open mind, dulls and shatters in the face of fanatism and facts wont bother the single-minded.

Not true, abstinence is preached universally, its just that uninformed moralistic bigots blame the woman only, a fringe oppinion spawned by outdated gender roles. The so often dismissed RCC, as the biggest champion for abstinence, preaches equality, as do those sex-ed school programms who place abstinence before other methods of birth control. Whatever ones view on the whole issue, it doesnt help to repeat idiocies and claim them to be the only argument put forward.

RCC ? sorry, who are they ?
Abstinance was only given as one of the options in my sex-ed course, alongside condoms and the pill(normal and morning-after)

I was talking more about various internet forums tbh, which seem to feature a wide variety of bigots shouting their personal convictions.

RCC ? sorry, who are they ?
RCC is the Roman Catholic Church, by far the largest christian denomination.

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?

Anakah Anakrousis: "Life Sentence".

I lived a life of suffering.
I lived a life of pain.
They made sure I was born, and then
they never cared again.

I didn't chose to come here,
Just as I won't chose when I go.
But, I guess the flaw in being here
Is, this way, I will know

The pain I'll feel, the hunger,
All the suffering I'll see.
I'll get to feel the hell on earth,
This has been your gift to me.

You played the part of God, when you
Forced me into this life.
You chose to judge. Your judgement chose
For me a life of constant strife.

You let your gods dictate my fate,
When you removed the rights,
Of someone else to chose my fate.
You chose for me these nights

Of constant hunger, and the torture
That comes with being born unloved.
And all because of YOUR desire
To please 'someone' above.

You chose abuse, you chose the pain,
You chose this hell for me.
I wouldn't hurt the way I do, if
You'd let me never be.

Remember, when you're feeling proud,
About this heaven that you sell...
You may have 'saved my life', but you
Have sentenced me to Hell.

That poem the first one - typical written by a Man who could never really have to go through the pain of abortion ......

It is a woman's choice and it should always be

Anyone who is anti-abortion has probably not been in the situation themselves .... the psycological damage for someone who has will be with them for life ......

That poem the first one - typical written by a Man who could never really have to go through the pain of abortion ......

It is a woman's choice and it should always be

Anyone who is anti-abortion has probably not been in the situation themselves .... the psycological damage for someone who has will be with them for life ......Careful. That almost sounds like an arguement against allowing abortions in the first place.

Careful. That almost sounds like an arguement against allowing abortions in the first place.

?

?The anti-abortionists might pick up on the fact that abortions are so harmful to the woman, that they should be banned. They could go along the lines that if abortions cause so much emotional pain, the world would be better off without them.

The anti-abortionists might pick up on the fact that abortions are so harmful to the woman, that they should be banned. They could go along the lines that if abortions cause so much emotional pain, the world would be better off without them.

Except that the anti-abortion argument has always been about how 'cruel' it is to the poor little 'babies'.

If they are going to try to shift the balance of sympathy to the 'mother' in the equation, they will have to admit that a woman is important to the equation - and not just the breeding vessel they NEED her to be in the picture.

Except that the anti-abortion argument has always been about how 'cruel' it is to the poor little 'babies'.

If they are going to try to shift the balance of sympathy to the 'mother' in the equation, they will have to admit that a woman is important to the equation - and not just the breeding vessel they NEED her to be in the picture.I'm pretty sure you'd find some that do that... anyway, let's not discuss this particular aspect further...

Nice to hear a well-spoken voice of reason once in a while. Too bad you are here as well.
Please tell me how men would not abstain when their women do? Have sex with other men? Well, fine, but there is no chance of getting pregnant there. Abstinence as contraception works even if one party does not want it. Seems logical, eh?

*Rolls eyes* I was responding directly to the idiot who pointed the finger at women to abstain from sex.

Obviously you need this clarifying for you: Sometimes a woman doesn't want sex but a man does and sometimes it is the other way around, when the one who wants sex forces the other person it is called rape. This is wrong. It is perfectly possible for one half of the couple to intend to abstain and the other use violence and physical force to break that abstention. And we all know that men have a greater problem controlling their libido than women do, therefore the emphasis should be on men to control themselves :-)

Sex can occur between couples in a relationship and couples not. There have been accusations on this thread that women in our society are "unpaid whores", insinuating that women sleep around. I would like to point out that it is far more common for men to behave in this way than women. The numbnut who told women to keep their legs closed if they don't want children needs to be educated that men help in creating babies, their sperm is essential, at least for now.

Men who sleep around without protection, often duping the female into believing he wants more than sex, should be told to keep his fly done up and abstain from sex in order to avoid making someone pregnant. As should the husband who routinely forces his wife to have sex against her own free will. I half expected one of you twats to say that it wouldn't be the man's problem if he got some tart pregnant, that would just prove my point perfectly; that it is the woman left with the burden and therefore her choice what action to take.

Those who preach abstinance almost universally accuse women of being temptresses, (actually agreeing with others that men are inherently weak and unable to control themselves) and insist on women not doing anything to attract men. They make it seem that if a woman keeps her legs closed and says no that all men will respect that. Bollocks. I say men learn to live in this century where women are not just for making babies with, we are human beings and are entitled to equal rights, including self-detirmination. Stop interfering with women's bodies.

And if you get horny go have a wank. Oh no, I forgot, Catholics aren't allowed to do that either! I know, go to a sperm bank and donate the product! You want babies so badly and don't want to waste those little fellas, great idea!

One potential human life who may be the next Hitler is snuffed out everytime you (the lover is insignificant - it's your decision as a woman, no one elses) make a responsible decision.



Continue to enjoy sex and life. Have the abortion.

That's a terrible argument."who may be the next hitler".Are you that pessimistic about humanity?How can you use that as an excuse to kill an innocent child?

The child was created in your body,but that dosn't mean it's your property.It isn't just something you can get removed,it's a human being.When the mother took the risk of becoming pregnant,she became responisble for that human life."Continue to enjoy life"?What about your baby's right to enjoy life?

Even when a woman does not willingly take this risk,you still can't justify abortion.Rape is a terrible crime,but killing an innocent child will not undo it.
A child cannot carry it's father's guilt.

The whole idea of it's not human because it can't think,or can't feel,is rubbish.From conception there is a human being growing there,not after so many weeks or months,but from the very beginning.

Any doctor who takes part in an abortion breaks their oath to protect human life.The only exception is if the pregnancy threatens the mother's life.

Call it pro-choice if you want,but it's the choice to kill you're campaigning for.

To anyone who would consider getting an abortion,please think very hard.Just because it might be legal or acceptable to many other people,it does not make it right.

Call it pro-choice if you want,but it's the choice to kill you're campaigning for.

To anyone who would consider getting an abortion,please think very hard.Just because it might be legal or acceptable to many other people,it does not make it right.Hey, I'm what I'd consider choose life. I'm for the right of abortions, but I'm not for people using it excessively. Not all pro-choice people campaign for killing. I fully agree with your opinion on thinking hard about an abortion.

Call it pro-choice if you want,but it's the choice to kill you're campaigning for.


No - it's not. "Pro-Choice" is not about wanting abortion, or NOT wanting abortion... simply about putting the choice to abort in the hands of the women in question.

Many people are actively against abortion in their own personal philosophy... but believe that the 'right' to an abortion is the choice of the woman with the unwanted foetus.

Also - until we can come up with a uniformly universally acceptable definition that will seal the lega; status of the foetus as a "human life", we cannot HONESTLY refer to abortion as 'killing' anything.


To anyone who would consider getting an abortion,please think very hard.Just because it might be legal or acceptable to many other people,it does not make it right.

On the other hand - to anyone thinking about getting an abortion, please bear in mind that JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE have faith reasons as to why you shouldn't, that doesn't make it empirically WRONG, either.

The whole idea of it's not human because it can't think,or can't feel,is rubbish.From conception there is a human being growing there,not after so many weeks or months,but from the very beginning.
Don't forget that it's got nerves and a brain quite early on… I forget the exact date, it's around 12-18 weeks… please excuse that appalling margin for error.

To anyone who would consider getting an abortion,please think very hard.Just because it might be legal or acceptable to many other people,it does not make it right. Very true. It was once widely believed that Jews sacrificed babies.

"It's a parasite, so it's the mother's choice to abort it" - since when did parasites not have a right to life? Since when were they not considered alive? Since when did using semantics change whether something was alive or not?

Don't forget that it's got nerves and a brain quite early on… I forget the exact date, it's around 12-18 weeks… please excuse that appalling margin for error.


The end of the third month. That's why in most countries, abortions are legal only up to that date. Later abortions are allowed only if there are valid medical reasons.

Of course they don't have thought patterns based on previous stimuli and previous experiences. They do have enough conscious thought, however, to scratch an itch, suck a thumb, and fondle and play with various body parts. In the NG documentary they showed a fetus vigorously picking its nose. All of this, as well as waving and kicking, prove there are thought processes. You cannot accurately judge a mental capacity based on as yet unlearned sensory data.

Picking your nose PROVES conscious thought?

that's rich.

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?


Wow. I completly TOTALY disagree with what the author says, but it is, purely from a fellow poets perspective, good work. It is poignat, sad, evokes emotions, and yet manages not to come off as corny, even while rhyming.

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?

I think it's brilliant mate, well said and it touches the real FACTS of the problem, evil BITCHES !! Abort yourself Pffft !!

Here's the thing with abortion:

If it was illegal, everyone would be affected. Those who would want to have one couldn't. If it is legal, those who want one, could get one, those who think it's murder, have no right whatsoever to be outraged. Vegitarians and Vegans consider the killing of animals to be murder, yet they're not going around blowing up slaughterhouses. Jews consider it to be an abomination to eat pork, yet my Jewish friends have no problem with us non Jews eating pig products. Fundamentally, it's the same thing.

Another fact unconsidered by right-to-lifers is that THE CHILD IS NOT WANTED!!! He or she is more likely to grow up in a dysfunctional house, ruin the lives of their parents if they have to quit school or work to take care of it. A would-be aborted kid is more likely to be put up for adoption, and adopted kids are more likely to commit suicide than those who aren't. You can't stop people from having sex. It is proven in 1984, you cannot stop it. People are not not going to have sex before marriage because a religion they aren't a part of says it's bad.

With that said, I'm never going to another abortion thread ever again! :D
Or maybe I could just save this and keep pasting it into future threads until they go away!

Another fact unconsidered by right-to-lifers is that THE CHILD IS NOT WANTED!!! He or she is more likely to grow up in a dysfunctional house, ruin the lives of their parents if they have to quit school or work to take care of it. A would-be aborted kid is more likely to be put up for adoption, and adopted kids are more likely to commit suicide than those who aren't. You can't stop people from having sex.



CONDOMNS !!

Like most people with any brains I wear a rubber, people who don't and then moan and kill the living thing in the womb are plain sick no thought for life, they are making life so therefore they are the life-changers !!

Adoption is the way forward unless of course the BITCH doesnt give a crap and just wants it out the way !!

It's a pity that any IDIOT can get pregnant, but its the girl who houses it inside her and she should protect it from death or a bad life even if it means adoption - many people CANT have children and its ashame because they will look after them so ADOPTION works, ABORTION is just plainly sick and giving women/ couples a chance to choose what life comes into this world, and seen as they are sick enough to kill it they shouldn't even get the choice in the first place !!

IDIOT RATING - **10+** Abortion is all so wrong and when in the womb they are allready smiling as seen in the newspapers not so long ago, and connected to the mother !!

If your going to open your legs face the damn consequences, * cough* evil wenches * cough *

Bluestrips2']CONDOMNS !!

Like most people with any brains I wear a rubber, people who don't and then moan and kill the living thing in the womb are plain sick no thought for life, they are making life so therefore they are the life-changers !!
...Which don't always work, and neither does the pill. Your ignorant rant following that snippet just made me laugh as it makes no sense and has no rationalization.

All I'm getting from the right-to-life side is "abortion is wrong!, but, but, but it's WRONG!!!" If you weren't aware, right and wrong are subjective. Good-bye abortion thread! (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks3.jpg)

Bluestrips2']CONDOMNS !!

Like most people with any brains I wear a rubber, people who don't and then moan and kill the living thing in the womb are plain sick no thought for life, they are making life so therefore they are the life-changers !!

Adoption is the way forward unless of course the BITCH doesnt give a crap and just wants it out the way !!

It's a pity that any IDIOT can get pregnant, but its the girl who houses it inside her and she should protect it from death or a bad life even if it means adoption - many people CANT have children and its ashame because they will look after them so ADOPTION works, ABORTION is just plainly sick and giving women/ couples a chance to choose what life comes into this world, and seen as they are sick enough to kill it they shouldn't even get the choice in the first place !!

IDIOT RATING - **10+** Abortion is all so wrong and when in the womb they are allready smiling as seen in the newspapers not so long ago, and connected to the mother !!

If your going to open your legs face the damn consequences, * cough* evil wenches * cough *

Why? Why? Why? Why don't you sh1theads listen?! It is quite clear that, for whatever reason, you are a woman hater and feel the need to express yourself in this ignorant fashion. I despise little morons like you who are so damn self-righteous. "It's wrong... because it is!" Is your only argument.

Are you blind? Did you not read what myself and others said about you dickheads telling US to close our legs?! Why don't you wankers do us all a favour and stop shagging everything that moves?!

No contraception is 100% effective and it is usually men who refuse to wear a condom, if they do it is often because they can't get any from the sensible women who insist upon it.

To you sir I say: If you're going to unzip your fly face the consequences!

Why do you assume it is the woman's fault that she is pregnant? Because you hate women, you're afraid of us because we CAN have children if we want to. We have something you will never have, the ability to grow life inside us! Ha! You're "pro-life" because you hate that women can choose whether or not to do this, you have no choice, you aren't biologically capable of it so you take it out on US!

Your post really offended me. That is why I'm so angry here and I make NO apology for it. You are a grade A C.U.N.T. and trust me, I do NOT use that word lightly. You pissed me off too much.

Oh and excuse me? "...girl who houses it inside her"? GIRL? You sick pervert! You shag little girls! Well that explains a lot.

Why? Why? Why? Why don't you sh1theads listen?! It is quite clear that, for whatever reason, you are a woman hater and feel the need to express yourself in this ignorant fashion. I despise little morons like you who are so damn self-righteous. "It's wrong... because it is!" Is your only argument.

Are you blind? Did you not read what myself and others said about you dickheads telling US to close our legs?! Why don't you wankers do us all a favour and stop shagging everything that moves?!

No contraception is 100% effective and it is usually men who refuse to wear a condom, if they do it is often because they can't get any from the sensible women who insist upon it.

To you sir I say: If you're going to unzip your fly face the consequences!

Why do you assume it is the woman's fault that she is pregnant? Because you hate women, you're afraid of us because we CAN have children if we want to. We have something you will never have, the ability to grow life inside us! Ha! You're "pro-life" because you hate that women can choose whether or not to do this, you have no choice, you aren't biologically capable of it so you take it out on US!

Your post really offended me. That is why I'm so angry here and I make NO apology for it. You are a grade A C.U.N.T. and trust me, I do NOT use that word lightly. You pissed me off too much.

Oh and excuse me? "...girl who houses it inside her"? GIRL? You sick pervert! You shag little girls! Well that explains a lot.


Yeah flame away, I dont hate women in fact I care for them a lot, you dont know me so dont start acting like you do !!

Why am I calling them bitches you may wonder ? Because they are for not caring for their own spouse and yes guys do the same but they don't actually have the kids inside them so it's not 100% their choice, the women can allways so no just like to sex without a condomn !!

Im a pedophile good one yeah real good - Like I'd kill a kid before it was even born and was just starting to feel the connection between its own mother !!!

Thats sick and basically some kind of sick ego ' I controlled life' phase of the bitches life !!

Anyone who does this man or woman is a bitch !!

Boasting about being able to have life inside you when abortion is on the agenda is probably a bad thing to do !

Bluestrips2']Yeah flame away, I dont hate women in fact I care for them a lot, you dont know me so dont start acting like you do !!

Why am I calling them bitches you may wonder ? Because they are for not caring for their own spouse and yes guys do the same but they don't actually have the kids inside them so it's not 100% their choice, the women can allways so no just like to sex without a condomn !!

Im a pedophile good one yeah real good - Like I'd kill a kid before it was even born and was just starting to feel the connection between its own mother !!!

Thats sick and basically some kind of sick ego ' I controlled life' phase of the bitches life !!

Anyone who does this man or woman is a bitch !!

Boasting about being able to have life inside you when abortion is on the agenda is probably a bad thing to do !

Maybe you're not a woman hater, but your words scream it to any woman reading this. Calling women "bitches" because they have abortions is out of order. Saying abortion is a power trip for women is insulting, you make it sound like it's something women ENJOY doing. You try to cover your tracks by saying that either gender would illicit the same response from you, yet you use a term most commonly attributed to women.

You need to learn to differentiate between girls and women. Which are we talking about? I'm not saying that teenage girls don't get pregnant, they obviously do. Was it specifically teenegers to who you were refering? If so you should have clarified. By throwing the term "girl" in there to refer to all women is offensive. Ok? Work on that.

I don't think pointing out what goes on in the womb is a bad thing to do on an abortion thread. I'm pro-choice but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge what pregnancy is. I'm actually a very spiritual person, I think life is amazing and I think growing life is a wonderful and crazy thing. What is it? Can you explain what life is? No, no one can, we don't know and I love that, it enchants me. And I do honestly believe that this is the root of sexism, men are fundamentally envious of this thing that happens that they can never experience. Do you deny that?

But, these are MY spiritual beliefs and I refuse to force them onto other people. I acknowledge, unlike you, that every individual case has its own circumstances. Not every person should be a parent. FACT. Just because we can create life doesn't mean we all should. I know that right now I am not ready to be a parent, not emotionally or financially. I honestly think it is more irresponsible to have and keep a child who you can't afford to feed and clothe, or have and give away a child who will be a burden on the state, than it is to abort an embryo.

I'm sorry, but that is just what I believe. You don't have to agree with me, but as a reasonable adult, you have to acknowledge my beliefs and respect them.

I would do likewise, but you were aggressive and unreasonable in your post. You refuse to commit any rational, scientific reasoning to your point and you set out to insult and offend all the women and pro-choice people reading this. I'm sorry for flaming you, I should have composed myself before replying, but the fact remains that you actually really upset me. I'm horribly disappointed that people have opinions like yours in the modern world, I'm shocked that such hatred exists towards women who make choices for themselves in dire circumstances.

You should try talking to a few people who have had abortions, who have had to face the choice. It is not an easy choice for most women, you have no idea how the human mind works. Life is not black and white I'm afraid. We are all individuals and we need to be entitled to make these choices if society is going to continue moving forward. As soon as we start restricting civil liberties we move backwards.

*snip*
Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far[/I]

-------------------------------------

What do you think?
I think, if you never were, then you were never an "I".

Maybe you're not a woman hater, but your words scream it to any woman reading this. Calling women "bitches" because they have abortions is out of order. Saying abortion is a power trip for women is insulting, you make it sound like it's something women ENJOY doing. You try to cover your tracks by saying that either gender would illicit the same response from you, yet you use a term most commonly attributed to women.

You need to learn to differentiate between girls and women. Which are we talking about? I'm not saying that teenage girls don't get pregnant, they obviously do. Was it specifically teenegers to who you were refering? If so you should have clarified. By throwing the term "girl" in there to refer to all women is offensive. Ok? Work on that.

I don't think pointing out what goes on in the womb is a bad thing to do on an abortion thread. I'm pro-choice but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge what pregnancy is. I'm actually a very spiritual person, I think life is amazing and I think growing life is a wonderful and crazy thing. What is it? Can you explain what life is? No, no one can, we don't know and I love that, it enchants me. And I do honestly believe that this is the root of sexism, men are fundamentally envious of this thing that happens that they can never experience. Do you deny that?

But, these are MY spiritual beliefs and I refuse to force them onto other people. I acknowledge, unlike you, that every individual case has its own circumstances. Not every person should be a parent. FACT. Just because we can create life doesn't mean we all should. I know that right now I am not ready to be a parent, not emotionally or financially. I honestly think it is more irresponsible to have and keep a child who you can't afford to feed and clothe, or have and give away a child who will be a burden on the state, than it is to abort an embryo.

I'm sorry, but that is just what I believe. You don't have to agree with me, but as a reasonable adult, you have to acknowledge my beliefs and respect them.

I would do likewise, but you were aggressive and unreasonable in your post. You refuse to commit any rational, scientific reasoning to your point and you set out to insult and offend all the women and pro-choice people reading this. I'm sorry for flaming you, I should have composed myself before replying, but the fact remains that you actually really upset me. I'm horribly disappointed that people have opinions like yours in the modern world, I'm shocked that such hatred exists towards women who make choices for themselves in dire circumstances.

You should try talking to a few people who have had abortions, who have had to face the choice. It is not an easy choice for most women, you have no idea how the human mind works. Life is not black and white I'm afraid. We are all individuals and we need to be entitled to make these choices if society is going to continue moving forward. As soon as we start restricting civil liberties we move backwards.

Ok so everything is offensive yeah ?

I'll call them bitches and I'd do it to their faces the ego trip out maniacs, If that insults you then you are clearly waiting on a chance to defend women for something.

Ego power trips I thought was a perfect explanasion of the trust you can have with these women who claim abortion is right !!

Of course it's not an easy choice to make, it shouldnt even be a bloody choice !!

Come into my womb feel my love - then Beeeeeeep * dead * Nah im not having it they are Bitches and thats what I think and a lot of other people I know think the same including a lot of girls and ladies I know.

Aggressive LoL because I called them bitches, just like I call terrorists asses.

They shouldn't even have a womb if they are gonna use it as a torture chamber !!!

Bluestrips2']Ok so everything is offensive yeah ?

I'll call them bitches and I'd do it to their faces the ego trip out maniacs, If that insults you then you are clearly waiting on a chance to defend women for something.

Ego power trips I thought was a perfect explanasion of the trust you can have with these women who claim abortion is right !!

Of course it's not an easy choice to make, it shouldnt even be a bloody choice !!

Come into my womb feel my love - then Beeeeeeep * dead * Nah im not having it they are Bitches and thats what I think and a lot of other people I know think the same including a lot of girls and ladies I know.

Aggressive LoL because I called them bitches, just like I call terrorists asses.

They shouldn't even have a womb if they are gonna use it as a torture chamber !!!

My immediate gut reaction to that was revulsion. Then I realised what a marvellous job you are doing of a) making yourself look stupid, and b) discrediting the "pro-life" movement!

Keep up the good work :-)

Bluestrips2']CONDOMNS !!

Like most people with any brains I wear a rubber, people who don't and then moan and kill the living thing in the womb are plain sick no thought for life, they are making life so therefore they are the life-changers !!

Adoption is the way forward unless of course the BITCH doesnt give a crap and just wants it out the way !!

It's a pity that any IDIOT can get pregnant, but its the girl who houses it inside her and she should protect it from death or a bad life even if it means adoption - many people CANT have children and its ashame because they will look after them so ADOPTION works, ABORTION is just plainly sick and giving women/ couples a chance to choose what life comes into this world, and seen as they are sick enough to kill it they shouldn't even get the choice in the first place !!

IDIOT RATING - **10+** Abortion is all so wrong and when in the womb they are allready smiling as seen in the newspapers not so long ago, and connected to the mother !!

If your going to open your legs face the damn consequences, * cough* evil wenches * cough *

Interesting choice of technique... you devolve ALL of the responsibility for pregnancy onto the female, and yet refuse the female the right to determine what occurs in her uterus AFTER you've had your fun?

Referring to women as 'bitches' and 'wenches' is hardly likely to help your case, either.

Now, let me just hit a couple of points:

1) The 'grinning' feotus is fiction. An eight-week foetus can no more 'smile' than a skull can - and the reason for the expression would be the same - that is - it is the 'shape' of the mouth. Nothing to do with emotion, sensitivity or design... just biological architecture.

2) You think that a woman is 'sick' for removing a foetus - and yet you make no commentary about the inhumanity of removing tapeworms, cancers, or partially assimilated twins... you also ignore the fact that about a third of all 'fertilised' eggs drop straight out anyway.

3) The idea that adoption is the solution is ridiculous. If you are going to make such an assertion, perhaps you would care to show some evidence to support your claim? How about showing that there are not thousands of children currently awaiting adoption? Because - obviously, if adoption is the panacea you suggest, ALL the adoptable children MUST have already been adopted, right?

4) You cannot 'kill' what is not alive. We can argue about whether or not the foetus is living tissue... but we can never agree at which point the foetus becomes A LIFE. You obviously consider conception to be the start of 'life'... whereas I can see NO reason to assume ANY date before the formation of a functional nerve-system. What makes your arbitrary date any more relevant than mine?

That poem the first one - typical written by a Man who could never really have to go through the pain of abortion ......

It is a woman's choice and it should always be

Anyone who is anti-abortion has probably not been in the situation themselves .... the psycological damage for someone who has will be with them for life ......

I'm going to be blunt. I've had one, and it was the best decision I've ever made in my life and have no damage psychologically from it at all. I was glad to be able to have this choice because I have no interest in raising a family.

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?
Wow, because, you know. Fetuses that don't have fully-formed brains can totally feel pain, have feelings, think, and write poetry.