NationStates Jolt Archive

Amestria'][QUOTE=Gessler]
Are men really so weak and pathetic that equality threatens them?
Whats wrong, can't deal with a little payback for the fifties?

Equality? Hah! Your equality isnt even real, its just made up.
The fiftys were the last decent decade of western civilisation, its been all down hill since.

[QUOTE='[NS]Amestria']

Equality? Hah! Your equality isnt even real, its just made up.
The fiftys were the last decent decade of western civilisation, its been all down hill since.

True... in the 50s, there was Communism, people were dying of diseases that are now curable, smoking was considered sophisticated, but most of all, the internet didn't exist. So people like you were forced to yell their twisted ideas and concept about the world out of the window at puzzled passers-by. Those were the good old days... :rolleyes:

Roman Catholic Church, ah, should have figured that one out.

Since the RCC is indirectly responisble for a couple of million aids deaths in africa due to their "no condoms alowed" policy, im not going to trust them to do anything right.

The current pope is just as much an idiot recluse as the last one, with his "Harry Potter causes people to turn to witchcraft schtick"

Write a poem about how the kid never got a chance to grow up alienated in the inner city, raised by a crackhead mom, dropped out of his underfunded school and then ended up in a gang. Write about how sad the fetus is about not knowing the indifference and subtle racism of American society. Republicans love talking about "rescuing" these poor fetii, but when they're born disadvantaged, it's "pick yourself up by your bootstraps! Quit looking for a handout!" Some compassion. Why is it that right wingers find it easier to love and protect a lump of cells in a woman's uterus than they do to provide some compassion and support for a living human being? I'll be the first one to ban abortion once this is a civilized world to live in where every child has the chance to grow up and lead a happy life.

Bluestrips2']IDIOT RATING - **10+** Abortion is all so wrong and when in the womb they are allready smiling as seen in the newspapers not so long ago, and connected to the mother !!

If your going to open your legs face the damn consequences, * cough* evil wenches * cough *

to speak in the words of the illustrious Daffy Duck: Your Dissspicable

I think I'll correct the spelling and then use that sentence as signature. Would that be ok?
Most definately, I'm getting quoted alot lateley.... after people correct my spellingVGHT

Women who choose careers over babies when their pregnant, and abort, have nothing but my absolute disgust and loathing, your nothing but filth.
Men who dare to force a woman to abondon her own life goals in favour of carrying the spawn of herself and another have nothing but my absolute disgust and loathing, your nothing but filth.

I'm going to be blunt. I've had one, and it was the best decision I've ever made in my life and have no damage psychologically from it at all. I was glad to be able to have this choice because I have no interest in raising a family.

Ditto. Don't want to shout about it. At the time it was the best thing to do but it does not mean I don't think about it everyday :(

Men who dare to force a woman to abondon her own life goals in favour of carrying the spawn of herself and another have nothing but my absolute disgust and loathing, your nothing but filth.

Its called childbirth, not spawn.
Your primary life goal is children, every other goal you have comes second, if you dont agree then your very immature or barren.

Its called childbirth, not spawn.
Your primary life goal is children, every other goal you have comes second, if you dont agree then your very immature or barren.

Excuse me, but who are you to tell a woman what her life goal is???

[QUOTE=Froudland]
Why do you assume it is the woman's fault that she is pregnant? Because you hate women, you're afraid of us because we CAN have children if we want to. We have something you will never have, the ability to grow life inside us! Ha! You're "pro-life" because you hate that women can choose whether or not to do this, you have no choice, you aren't biologically capable of it so you take it out on US!

You only have in you because we put it there sweetheart.
We have the seed and are the sowers of life, and you are the field that must be plowed and furrowed.

You only have in you because we put it there sweetheart.

... And now you're single-handedly inserting an uterus into ever woman on the planet? :rolleyes:



We have the seed and are the sowers of life, and you are the field that must be plowed and furrowed.

Well, maybe you should first check if "the field" is willing to grow anything....

Excuse me, but who are you to tell a woman what her life goal is???

Someone alot wiser than you.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

... And now you're single-handedly inserting an uterus into ever woman on the planet? :rolleyes:

Semen... your not that bright are you.

[QUOTE=Cabra West

Well, maybe you should first check if "the field" is willing to grow anything....[/QUOTE]

Plenty of fields around.

Someone alot wiser than you.

Sorry, that's spelled "weirder"

Plenty of fields around.

Well, then stop blaming those who don't want to grow anything. Simple as that, wise guy.

[QUOTE=Cabra West]

Semen... your not that bright are you.

She was talking about an uterus, you said you put it there... not very literate, are you?

Sorry, that's spelled "weirder"

So your saying your weird?

[QUOTE=Gessler]

She was talking about an uterus, you said you put it there... not very literate, are you?

Actually I am, if you go back and try to look abit more carefully, she is indeed talking about her uterus but in a sense that it somehow magically grows the life with no male imput, she says 'we can create life!' Sorry darlings, you cant create it, not without our help anyway.
Your walking incubators nothing more, dont get any grandiose ideas about starting human life, because thats what we do, with your help of course.
Do try to think.

The key to the debate between YES ABORTION and NO ABORTION is not whether the fetus/embryo "has feelings or not" at the time of the intended abortion. One potential human life who may hold the key to solving one or more of the world's largest problems would be snuffed out everytime you and your lover make an irresponsible decision. You enjoyed the sex. Enjoy the baby too.


My friend had an abortion. The condom broke. She enjoyed the sex and so did her boyfriend. When she told her boyfriend she was pregnant he dumped her. I'm sure he enjoyed the sex too but unlike her, he had a choice in whether he wanted to enjoy a baby. My friend was in university at the time and she didn't want to drop out so she could have some dead beats baby...she thought HER life had potential too. Heaven forbid she should be so selfish! (insert sarcasm)

Well, then stop blaming those who don't want to grow anything. Simple as that, wise guy.

Oh oh neanderthal woman... I'll blame them all I want, selfish women.
But Im no rapist, so if they dont want to make a baby, I'll make one with a real woman.

My friend had an abortion. The condom broke. She enjoyed the sex and so did her boyfriend. When she told her boyfriend she was pregnant he dumped her. I'm sure he enjoyed the sex too but unlike her, he had a choice in whether he wanted to enjoy a baby. My friend was in university at the time and she didn't want to drop out so she could have some dead beats baby...she thought HER life had potential too. Heaven forbid she should be so selfish! (insert sarcasm)


HOW SAD, you can still do education like my sister is doing while being pregnant ( university ), probably a dig at the boyfriend !!

Thats another poor sould tormented by a fraction of life :gundge:

Yeah whats with them?
Maybe they should have been men.

So you're saying men have no similar instincts??? That they feel no urge to have/keep/raise children?

So you're saying men have no similar instincts??? That they feel no urge to have/keep/raise children?

I was talking as in physically.
Most men love raising children, however feminism has distorted alot of how kids should be raised by men.

My immediate gut reaction to that was revulsion. Then I realised what a marvellous job you are doing of a) making yourself look stupid, and b) discrediting the "pro-life" movement!

Keep up the good work :-)


Your answers are the same to everyone response to this, you a) say something about spelling, claim they are making them selves look stupid, B) COme out with some half hearted line about pro life that doesnt fit into that part of the debate.

No matter how many words you spill out your mouth, Its wrong to determine your control over the life inside of you, It is a POWERTRIP - I can choose to end life - what a thing to have going through your head, and then to do it is even worse.

FACTS are the baby does smile and it does feel emotion and has a connection with the mother - so any one who does have an abortion is simply over looking this for other reasons usually to get back at the boyfriend ( yes i've seen bitches do it ) or you arent capable of ever beein a mother therefore should not be a women !!

If it was up to me I'd have them shot and send them to the place the poor unborn kid is sitting confused, he didnt even learn anything just a bit of love then DEATH - HOW WRONG CAN YOU GET !!!

SICK WENCHES STOP TRYING TO CONTROL LIFE !!

Bluestrips2']HOW SAD, you can still do education like my sister is doing while being pregnant ( university ), probably a dig at the boyfriend !!

Thats another poor sould tormented by a fraction of life :gundge:


Good for your sister :) . She made a choice and I'm sure she'll do whatever it takes to be a great mom (if she's keeping it) and a successful student. My friend didn't think she was strong enough for that challenge. She didn't want to be pregnant and she didn't have the support network that it sounds like your sister has. She made a choice too and whether it's right or wrong, only she will answer for it if there is anything to answer for. It's not our job or place to say what that answer will be.

This is actually turning out to be really funny!

The arguments from the "pro-life" camp here are:
1. Women are nothing but walking incubators
2. Women who don't want children aren't real women
3. Women have no rights

Is anyone else just utterly amused by the stupidity in the room?! I know I am. If these people were for real they'd have decent arguments. It is quite clear that Gessler and Bluestrips2 are just TROLLS trying to wind us up. Ignore them and they will get tired and go away :-)

Oh and for the record, I never said women could create life from nothing, but I did say we are the gender that can GROW life, last time I checked, men did not, in fact, have wombs. If you have to twist people's words and leave out the details of what they are saying in order to make yourself sound correct then you are clearly on thin ice!

I was talking as in physically.
Most men love raising children, however feminism has distorted alot of how kids should be raised by men.


How so? Not being sarcastic here...just wanting your take on it.

Bluestrips2']SICK WENCHES STOP TRYING TO CONTROL LIFE !!

Oh dear, we have a hypocrite on our hands. Why don't YOU stop trying to control life? The woman's life that is. Oh yes, I forgot, you think women aren't entitled to a life of their own, they are merely breeding machines for men, that's right.

*rolls eyes emphatically*

There is just no nationalising with a jerk like this. Ok, this is absolutely my last post. I will not feed the trolls any longer.

How so? Not being sarcastic here...just wanting your take on it.

It seems they are trying to get men to act like a second mother rather than as a father, the way its going with medical science men will be breastfeeding one day yech.

[QUOTE=Froudland]Oh dear, we have a hypocrite on our hands. Why don't YOU stop trying to control life? The woman's life that is. Oh yes, I forgot, you think women aren't entitled to a life of their own, they are merely breeding machines for men, that's right.

For the human race, not just men.

Oh and for the record, I never said women could create life from nothing, but I did say we are the gender that can GROW life, last time I checked, men did not, in fact, have wombs. If you have to twist people's words and leave out the details of what they are saying in order to make yourself sound correct then you are clearly on thin ice!

You grow it only because we put it there, why do you keep leaving that out, why cant you just admit there would be no human race without us.

Oh dear, we have a hypocrite on our hands. Why don't YOU stop trying to control life? The woman's life that is. Oh yes, I forgot, you think women aren't entitled to a life of their own, they are merely breeding machines for men, that's right.

*rolls eyes emphatically*

There is just no nationalising with a jerk like this. Ok, this is absolutely my last post. I will not feed the trolls any longer.

FEED YOURSELF

We all know how sick women are for doing this LMAO Its a part of life these days learning what people are like learning who to trust !!

We don't like to see little infants tortured understand ??

We don't like to see people defend it with crap slander, and then dismiss every other issue and attack the bottom line of someones post !!

Have a kid care for it, dont let it linger in this world for a second then kill it SICK BITCHES

Bluestrips2']FEED YOURSELF

We all know how sick women are for doing this LMAO Its a part of life these days learning what people are like learning who to trust !!

We don't like to see little infants tortured understand ??

We don't like to see people defend it with crap slander, and then dismiss every other issue and attack the bottom line of someones post !!

Have a kid care for it, dont let it linger in this world for a second then kill it SICK BITCHES

You have been reported for harrasing and verbally abusing women.

You have been reported for harrasing and verbally abusing women.


LOL Get a grip mate !!

It's like me calling terrorists that i don't like asses - don't you understand ????

Like in my other post I explained to her that I was calling the people who do abort kids in the womb after they get a fraction of love Bitches and any man or lady who do this !!

READ UP NEXT TIME YOU TRY THIS !!!


_ I should actually report you for abusing the reporting system !!

Bluestrips2']LOL Get a grip mate !!

It's like me calling terrorists that i don't like asses - don't you understand ????

Like in my other post I explained to her that I was calling the people who do abort kids in the womb after they get a fraction of love Bitches and any man or lady who do this !!

READ UP NEXT TIME YOU TRY THIS !!!


_ I should actually report you for abusing the reporting system !!

I reported you because i read the whole thread...

I reported you because i read the whole thread...

YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ IT ALL.

STATE WHERE I HAVE VERBALLY ATTACKED AN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE FORUMS ?

Just because you don't agree you report me thats the lowest of the low mate reallly pathetic. Lose it !

Im reporting you, it's the only thing to do. You are abusing the system when you don't agree with an argument !!

I call them bitches WOW thats my view maybe a bit harder than yours accept it, I don't call any one 'A BITCH' - its like a reference to what I think about them, its easy to understand so obviously you can't come up with a decent point and report me !!

Bluestrips2']YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ IT ALL.

STATE WHERE I HAVE VERBALLY ATTACKED AN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE FORUMS ?

Just because you don't agree you report me thats the lowest of the low mate reallly pathetic. Lose it !

It's called trolling. You've made statements specifically designed to anger and insult and provoke the women on this forum. Calling all women "sick bitches" doesn't seem like the kind of statement you should avoid?

It's called trolling. You've made statements specifically designed to anger and insult and provoke the women on this forum. Calling all women "sick bitches" doesn't seem like the kind of statement you should avoid?


I never once called all women sick bitches LOL READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE YOU EVEN CLAIM SUCH A THING..

I call men and women bitches for doing it, it makes me sick what they do so I call them bitches OK.

what a crap way to try and win LoL Ive seen it before and it won't work if I didnt actually say THAT !!

Read above it explains there like a few pages back I explained what I meant so people like you couldnt do this !!

Bluestrips2']YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ IT ALL.

STATE WHERE I HAVE VERBALLY ATTACKED AN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE FORUMS ?

Just because you don't agree you report me thats the lowest of the low mate reallly pathetic. Lose it !

Im reporting you, it's the only thing to do. You are abusing the system when you don't agree with an argument !!

I call them bitches WOW thats my view maybe a bit harder than yours accept it, I don't call any one 'A BITCH' - its like a reference to what I think about them, its easy to understand so obviously you can't come up with a decent point and report me !!

Youve done worse than attacking a single person, instead you attack an entire segment of the population, for that i reported you.
Btw: thanks for reporting me, it will draw more mod attention to this thread, and since i have done nothing against the rules i wont suffer from your report :)

Bluestrips2']I never once called all women sick bitches LOL READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE YOU EVEN CLAIM SUCH A THING..

I call men and women bitches for doing it, it makes me sick what they do so I call them bitches OK.

what a crap way to try and win LoL Ive seen it before and it won't work if I didnt actually say THAT !!

Read above it explains there like a few pages back I explained what I meant so people like you couldnt do this !!

My mistake. You called all men and women who have had an abortion, or would consider an abortion, or support someone else's choice to get an abortion, "sick bitches". Am I reading that right? Anyone who believes abortions are right are "sick bitches"? I believe abortions are right. You've just called me a "sick bitch".

Youve done worse than attacking a single person, instead you attack an entire segment of the population, for that i reported you.
Btw: thanks for reporting me, it will draw more mod attention to this thread, and since i have done nothing against the rules i wont suffer from your report :)


Thats crap mate you are just pissed of because its SICK and Im against it very weird, LOSE IT !!

SO WOULD YOU REPORT ME FOR CALLING TERRORISTS ASSES ???

Looks like I hit a nerve LoL

Bluestrips2']Thats crap mate you are just pissed of because its SICK and Im against it very weird, LOSE IT !!

care to translate that to english please, i'll respond when it makes sense.

Bluestrips2']SO WOULD YOU REPORT ME FOR CALLING TERRORISTS ASSES ???

Looks like I hit a nerve LoL

If you post in the same way as youve posted in this thread, then yes.

My mistake. You called all men and women who have had an abortion, or would consider an abortion, or support someone else's choice to get an abortion, "sick bitches". Am I reading that right? Anyone who believes abortions are right are "sick bitches"? I believe abortions are right. You've just called me a "sick bitch".


No I never called you a sick bitch, you are now using my words and twisting them or you plainly can't understand.

I said they are sick bitches - I never once implied you or anyone is actually a sick bitch - its a 'bold statement' thats all !!

LooL lose arguments a lot do you ? Im telling mummy HAH


care to translate that to english please, i'll respond when it makes sense.



If you post in the same way as youve posted in this thread, then yes.

Thanks thats what I needed to see posted !!

Go hunting mate I bet a load of people have called them the same and probably worse !!

I know I have !

I wonder if this is a muppet nation ?

Bluestrips2']No I never called you a sick bitch, you are now using my words and twisting them or you plainly can't understand.

I said they are sick bitches - I never once implied you or anyone is actually a sick bitch - its a 'bold statement' thats all !!

LooL lose arguments a lot do you ? Im telling mummy HAH

You stated that anyone supporting abortion rights is a sick bitch.
Sdaeriji, me and various others support abortion rights.
You've called us sick bitches.


Bluestrips2']Thanks thats what I needed to see posted !!

Go hunting mate I bet a load of people have called them the same and probably worse !!

Go hunting for posts to report ? No thanks, ive got better things to do.

Bluestrips2']I wonder if this is a muppet nation ?

No, im not a muppet nation, i just dont post a lot

Bluestrips2']I said they are sick bitches - I never once implied you or anyone is actually a sick bitch - its a 'bold statement' thats all !!


You implied that people who support abortions are "sick bitches". That includes me and about 50% of this forum. How, again, did you NOT insult us?


LooL lose arguments a lot do you ? Im telling mummy HAH


Cute little flamebait. Might I suggest a little light reading (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8784641&postcount=3)?

You implied that people who support abortions are "sick bitches". That includes me and about 50% of this forum. How, again, did you NOT insult us?



Cute little flamebait. Might I suggest a little light reading (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8784641&postcount=3)?

Again twisting words, It doesnt work mate !! ( HOW SAD - In a usual post maybe, but when its reporting me Pffft - HANDLE IT, LOSE IT )

People who have them I believe are sick bitches for giving life, letting them feel love and a connection with the mother then killing them !!

Hmm I wonder how BOLD my statement actually was !!


And that is what you reported me for - so lets leave it at that !!! Dont twist it anymore !!!

Folks, don't you want to take this all to Moderation and let them decide rather than hijacking the thread like this?

Folks, don't you want to take this all to Moderation and let them decide rather than hijacking the thread like this?

Yeah, I posted above so my point was there and let them decide without someone twisting it anymore !!

[NS]Bluestrips2 everyopne is entitled to a point of view. However you are coming across as an unintelligent, aggresive, argumentative small child. Get your facts together and debate your point of view don'tact like such an ass.

[NS]Bluestrips2 everyopne is entitled to a point of view. However you are coming across as an unintelligent, aggresive, argumentative small child. Get your facts together and debate your point of view don'tact like such an ass.


Thats a very flaming post so im not even going to pay much attention to it, apart from the bit where you say EVERYONE is entitled to a poin of view - thats what I have put across !!

FACTS arent really on debate here its morals, morals like this ..

'Could you kill a child inside of you that had feelings and emotions through you and was in fact yours, it has allready felt some love but has yet to see the real world and its splender'

Get YOUR facts right before you try and defend an argument with nothing but flames !!

Bluestrips2']Again twisting words, It doesnt work mate !! ( HOW SAD - In a usual post maybe, but when its reporting me Pffft - HANDLE IT, LOSE IT )

People who have them I believe are sick bitches for giving life, letting them feel love and a connection with the mother then killing them !!

Hmm I wonder how BOLD my statement actually was !!


And that is what you reported me for - so lets leave it at that !!! Dont twist it anymore !!!

There are at least two people who have posted on this thread who have HAD abortions, they declared it openly. By your "bold statement" you have called them "sick bitches". A very dear friend of mine recently had an abortion, it actually went wrong and she ended up back in hospital a few days later. She is ok now, but it was an incredibly stressful thing for her, she also broke up with her boyfriend over it for various reasons (note, not because he had wanted her to keep it, he most deffinately didn't). She is one of the loveliest people I have ever known, she is not a "sick bitch" because of one decision she made to prioritise her own life over another. I fully support her and all other women in situations like hers.

To use throw away insults like that is immoral. You do not know these women personally or have any idea of their circumstances. You have no compassion for women at all as you openly admit to believing that women only exist to get pregnant and raise children. You are a sexist, plain and simple. You attacked me for assuming to know you, well you do exactly that by calling all women who have abortions "sick bitches". You are assuming to know them and their lives and their beliefs, you are judging them with no knowledge of them as individuals. Therefore you are a hypocrite.

You are a troll, you came here purely to stir people up and upset them. One of your posts actually made me physically cry, as my husband will testify. It was incredibly offensive and you know it, you intended it to be. I say again, you are a troll and you should be reported as such. Trolling is widely considered to be unnacceptable on public forums like this one.

Your account needs to be deleted and a ban on your email address installed to prevent you from continuing in this immature and pathetic endeavour to upset people.

There are at least two people who have posted on this thread who have HAD abortions, they declared it openly. By your "bold statement" you have called them "sick bitches". A very dear friend of mine recently had an abortion, it actually went wrong and she ended up back in hospital a few days later. She is ok now, but it was an incredibly stressful thing for her, she also broke up with her boyfriend over it for various reasons (note, not because he had wanted her to keep it, he most deffinately didn't). She is one of the loveliest people I have ever known, she is not a "sick bitch" because of one decision she made to prioritise her own life over another. I fully support her and all other women in situations like hers.

To use throw away insults like that is immoral. You do not know these women personally or have any idea of their circumstances. You have no compassion for women at all as you openly admit to believing that women only exist to get pregnant and raise children. You are a sexist, plain and simple. You attacked me for assuming to know you, well you do exactly that by calling all women who have abortions "sick bitches". You are assuming to know them and their lives and their beliefs, you are judging them with no knowledge of them as individuals. Therefore you are a hypocrite.

You are a troll, you came here purely to stir people up and upset them. One of your posts actually made me physically cry, as my husband will testify. It was incredibly offensive and you know it, you intended it to be. I say again, you are a troll and you should be reported as such. Trolling is widely considered to be unnacceptable on public forums like this one.

Your account needs to be deleted and a ban on your email address installed to prevent you from continuing in this immature and pathetic endeavour to upset people.


Once again you are annoyed at my anger toward this subject yes I find it SICK and It's never going to change a small cluster of people actually believe its right thankfully.

I hope your friend is ok, but as for the abortion ITS SICK !

People like you who try and ban people for voicing their views should be banned !!

YOU HAVE BEEN CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS ALL THROUGH THIS THREAD WHEN YOU WERE WRONG AND HAD NO VALID POINTS, AND NO ONE HAS REPORTED YOU, SO I CALL YOU A SICK TROLL !! ( and it wouldn't surprise me if the other nations are your puppets at all )

Maybe you should think about that before you get on at me for name calling.

Ok I got angry, maybe I should of just said SICK !!

But wait you called me and others a troll ?? Hmmmm

Ok we have high-jacked this thread and its no good when that happens ( it annoys me anyway ) so lets stop NOW.

Bluestrips2']Thats a very flaming post so im not even going to pay much attention to it, apart from the bit where you say EVERYONE is entitled to a poin of view - thats what I have put across !!

In what way was it a flame? It seemed more reasonable and civil than any of your posts.

Bluestrips2']FACTS arent really on debate here its morals, morals like this ..

'Could you kill a child inside of you that had feelings and emotions through you and was in fact yours, it has allready felt some love but has yet to see the real world and its splender'

Get YOUR facts right before you try and defend an argument with nothing but flames !!

Actually facts are what form a valid and sound argument and hold it together. Without facts an argument falls over and will not hold up in a formal debate, especially one about morals. Your "moral" argument is invalid because it doesn't use valid statements. You must be able to provide proof for your statements and they must hold up against contrary opinions as factual. Your statement was pure opinion, which is fine, but it cannot ever be right or wrong because it is an opinion. If you want to prove your postion as factually right, you must follow formal debate proceedures.

I warn you, we can do this if you want, but I am a philosophy student and I know how to argue formally! I can start putting together my technical argument for you right now.

I did already post my pro-choice argument way back on the first page but I can restructure it into a philosophically valid argument if you are serious about debating the issue. You say that I only respond to you in predictable ways without stating my argument, that is because I already stated my argument and have merely been responding to your drivel since. But I am perfectly prepared to do this properly if you are.

(I only have one nation, this one and I formed it days before ever looking at these forums. I am not a troll, have you looked up the term? I flamed you once because you flamebaited me - also unnacceptable.)

Bluestrips2']Thats a very flaming post so im not even going to pay much attention to it, apart from the bit where you say EVERYONE is entitled to a poin of view - thats what I have put across !!

FACTS arent really on debate here its morals, morals like this ..

'Could you kill a child inside of you that had feelings and emotions through you and was in fact yours, it has allready felt some love but has yet to see the real world and its splender'

Get YOUR facts right before you try and defend an argument with nothing but flames !!

All you seem to be saying is Abortion is sick and calling women who have had abortions sick bitches. You have obviously never been in this situation and I hope that you do not beccome a Dad before you grow up and expand your vocab. You are making me angry because you are calling me and others a sick bitch without actually knowing or having any background. The subject of abortion is not as black and white as you seem to make it... that is what I meant by facts.

Its called childbirth, not spawn.
Your primary life goal is children, every other goal you have comes second, if you dont agree then your very immature or barren.

YOUR primary life goal might be children, but, since we are no longer 'mere' animals obeying our hormones, perhaps we can expand our collective horizons a little further?

Its called childbirth, not spawn.
Your primary life goal is children, every other goal you have comes second, if you dont agree then your very immature or barren.

Just wondering, how old are you ?

[QUOTE]

You only have in you because we put it there sweetheart.
We have the seed and are the sowers of life, and you are the field that must be plowed and furrowed.

One assumes that you MEAN a woman ONLY has a foetus 'in there' because "we" (men?) put the foetus in there?

Surely, if you weren't so intent on this apparent reduction of women to mere vessels, you would see that the "we" in the equation could have saved a lot of trouble by assuming HALF the responsibility, and simply not letting the snake out of the cage?

He was born in New York, New York, although until 1974 he had thought his place of birth was his hometown, Neptune Township, New Jersey. A journalist's research uncovered what apparently had happened: the woman he had always thought of as his mother was actually his grandmother, who had arranged to raise him as her own child. She did this because he was actually the illegitimate offspring of her daughter, a woman whom Nicholson thought was his older sister. Because of this fact Nicholson is pro-life and has spoken out about it saying, "I'm very contra my constituency in terms of abortion because I'm positively against it. I don't have the right to any other view. My only emotion is gratitude, literally, for my life."


he = jack nicholson

he = jack nicholson
Ok, well that only gives his view, which he's perfectly entitled to. Doesn't make it any more (or less) valid, than anyone elses opinions on abortion though, so I fail to see the point in making the post at all.

Oh oh neanderthal woman... I'll blame them all I want, selfish women.
But Im no rapist, so if they dont want to make a baby, I'll make one with a real woman.

If you want to make a baby, you'll do so with a 'real woman'?

Does that mean that all your other interactions have been with some kind of artificial woman, or woman-substitute?

Bluestrips2']Thats a very flaming post so im not even going to pay much attention to it, apart from the bit where you say EVERYONE is entitled to a poin of view - thats what I have put across !!

FACTS arent really on debate here its morals, morals like this ..

'Could you kill a child inside of you that had feelings and emotions through you and was in fact yours, it has allready felt some love but has yet to see the real world and its splender'

Get YOUR facts right before you try and defend an argument with nothing but flames !!

On the subjects of 'getting facts straight'...

1) Please provide your evidence for the claim that an aborted foetus had feelings.

Most concepta are aborted within the first three months... so before any neural system is operational... I'd like to see your source material for 'feelings' in an entity with no functioning nerves...

2) Please provide your evidence for the claim that an aborted foetus had emotions.

I think you are applying a logical fallacy - the appeal to emotion, rather than to facts. I'd like to see some evidence that a pre-16-week foetus (the 'usual' abortion cutoff) has ANY emotions, or even capacity for them.

3) Please provide your evidence for the claim that an aborted foetus had access to parental 'emotions or feelings' before the 16-week-point.

I suspect all you are refering to here, is chemical balances in the conceptus cells... I'd like to see something more 'concrete'.

4) Please provide your evidence for the claim that an aborted foetus can 'feel love' before the 16-week-point.

Personally, I'd be impressed to see how you could prove a claim to an emotion that is still considered largely 'unmeasurable' by science.

Ok, well that only gives his view, which he's perfectly entitled to. Doesn't make it any more (or less) valid, than anyone elses opinions on abortion though, so I fail to see the point in making the post at all.

Point being that not all kids aborted are going to be unloved, abused, mentally unstable, poor, welfare cases, etc.

That idea is just ignorant

Point being that not all kids aborted are going to be unloved, abused, mentally unstable, poor, welfare cases, etc.

That idea is just ignorant

Well, not all kids are going to be aborted, either. And anyway, it doesn't alter the fact that women have inalienable rights over their own bodies. If a woman doesn't want to carry, she doesn't have to. Period.

Point being that not all kids aborted are going to be unloved, abused, mentally unstable, poor, welfare cases, etc.

That idea is just ignorant
Well of course it is, but a significant portion of aborted pregnancies would have led to children who, unfortunately, would be neglected, unloved, and generally unhappy.

Bluestrips2']Once again you are annoyed at my anger toward this subject yes I find it SICK and It's never going to change a small cluster of people actually believe its right thankfully.
Maybe a small cluster of people in your little world, but a significant portion of women in countries where it's possible have little or no problem with the concept. I doubt there are any accuracte figures out there, so I won't try to quote any.

I hope your friend is ok, but as for the abortion ITS SICK !
No. You feel it's sick. That doesn't make it so.

People like you who try and ban people for voicing their views should be banned !!
Pot. Kettle. Black.

I've seen nothing from you but insults to anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's not voicing your view, that's being deliberately offensive.

YOU HAVE BEEN CALLING PEOPLE TROLLS ALL THROUGH THIS THREAD WHEN YOU WERE WRONG AND HAD NO VALID POINTS, AND NO ONE HAS REPORTED YOU, SO I CALL YOU A SICK TROLL !!

Sick troll? I see. So now you're reduced to the childish "I know you are, but what am I?" argument. Well done. Again, you're the only one in this thread who has failed to have a single valid arguments beyond "IT'S SICK AND YOU'RE ALL BITCHES!!!!111!!!"

( and it wouldn't surprise me if the other nations are your puppets at all )

Or perhaps they actually think about what they believe, rather than being told what to think by the local priest.

Maybe you should think about that before you get on at me for name calling.

Again. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Ok I got angry, maybe I should of just said SICK !!

But wait you called me and others a troll ?? Hmmmm

Ok we have high-jacked this thread and its no good when that happens ( it annoys me anyway ) so lets stop NOW.
Oh, so you've realised you're only going to accentuate the view others have of your immaturity and stupidity, so you're running away.

Oh, and one more thing. There is never any need to type all in capitals. It's hard to read, and annoying. It's not as if you're going to convince people of your (in this case, incredibly flimsly) reasoning if you shout at them, so please, don't do it.

Well of course it is, but a significant portion of aborted pregnancies would have led to children who, unfortunately, would be neglected, unloved, and generally unhappy.

Generally a general statement that can't really be proven ?

Well, not all kids are going to be aborted, either. And anyway, it doesn't alter the fact that women have inalienable rights over their own bodies. If a woman doesn't want to carry, she doesn't have to. Period.

If she doesn't want to carry, she shouldn't have sex. Period.

The idea that an unwanted child always turns out to be a criminal is completely unfounded and false. One needs only to look at a former president of the UNited States to disprove that theory. Herbert Hoover wasn't abandoned at birth.... He was abandoned at a later age, so he KNEW his parents didn't care for him. Now, many people would just throw their hands up and quit, but Herbert Hoover did not.... He went out and MADE something of himself... Yale graduate, Food administration during WW1, and then President of the USA.... Quite frankly, if he can do it, anyone can. Another, a personal friend of mine, his mother almost aborted him, but she decided not to in the end due to constant nagging from her moral fiber. But now, he is overall an unwanted child..... He hasn't commited a crime in his life and graduated High School this last year.

Also, I am a southerner so i must clear up the generalized misconceptions about why a majority of southerners are pro-life. We southerners don't oppose abortion with every fiber of our being soley on religon.... We are against it because it's completely wrong. Murder is murder by any name the same.....

If she doesn't want to carry, she shouldn't have sex. Period.
I assume you have heard of this little thing called contraception?

Been in use in various forms for thousands of years.

I'm sure other people have asked the following: "If people (and animals) weren't supposed to have sex for pleasure, why are the the most pleasure-inducing areas of teh body the sexual organs?"

I assume you have heard of this little thing called contraception?

Been in use in various forms for thousands of years.

I'm sure other people have asked the following: "If people (and animals) weren't supposed to have sex for pleasure, why are the the most pleasure-inducing areas of teh body the sexual organs?"

Contraception = no need for abortion

If she doesn't want to carry, she shouldn't have sex. Period.

Seriously, what century do you live in? It is obviously your belief that sex should only ever be had if pregnancy is the intention and you are entitled to live that way yourself. But I am sorry to have to tell you that at least 5 billion people disagree with you on this. It is none of your business if people have sex for pleasure, it simply does not affect you in any way if they do.

Out of interest, if a man doesn't want to father a child, should he also abstain from sex? And we are talking about all men and women here, not just married couples. I don't want to hear the argument that a man should wear a condom and have sex whenever he chooses, if that is good enough for a man it is good enough for a woman too. I want to know if you believe that abstinance is the primary contraceptive for both genders or just women. This has come up on this thread already, but no one who has suggested women abstain has actually said men should too. Except the rantings about if the woman in a couple abstains the man automatically will. Which was not a satisfactory answer as far as I'm concerned.

The idea that an unwanted child always turns out to be a criminal is completely unfounded and false. One needs only to look at a former president of the UNited States to disprove that theory. Herbert Hoover wasn't abandoned at birth.... He was abandoned at a later age, so he KNEW his parents didn't care for him. Now, many people would just throw their hands up and quit, but Herbert Hoover did not.... He went out and MADE something of himself... Yale graduate, Food administration during WW1, and then President of the USA.... Quite frankly, if he can do it, anyone can. Another, a personal friend of mine, his mother almost aborted him, but she decided not to in the end due to constant nagging from her moral fiber. But now, he is overall an unwanted child..... He hasn't commited a crime in his life and graduated High School this last year.

Well good for him. Personally, I don't feel an unwanted child is any more likely to be a criminal, but if they are genuinely unwanted, they're certainly not going to be happy. Now is that a suitable fate to wish on a child?

Also, I am a southerner so i must clear up the generalized misconceptions about why a majority of southerners are pro-life. We southerners don't oppose abortion with every fiber of our being soley on religon.... We are against it because it's completely wrong. Murder is murder by any name the same.....
Well, yes, murder is wrong, regardless of how you want to dress it up. The real question here though, is whether abortion actually is murder. To answer that, you really have to address at what point the bundle of cells that is the embryo, becomes a separate life from it's mother.

This issue was raised recently in the UK, where the 24-week limit for abortion is set based on the ability of the fetus to survive outside the womb. Newer medical techniques would allow a 20-week fetus to survive, so some people were suggesting that because of that, the abortion limit should be reduced from 24, to 20 weeks.

The implications of this are that if a fetus cannot survive outside the womb, it isn't a separate life, and is merely part of the woman in question. At which point, it's no different than a woman deciding to cut her own leg off. It might not be pleasant, and people might not like that she does it, but it's her choice. Following from that, therefore, aborting a pregnancy before the fetus can survive, and is a life of it's own, is not murder.

Contraception = no need for abortion

Well which is it? No sex or wear a condom? Come on, stop shifting your argument and stop pretending that contraceptives are 100% effective, it has been said already for those who honestly didn't know this, but just for you: no contraceptive is 100% proof against pregnancy.

Contraception = no need for abortion
Not quite, since contraception isn't 100% effective.

"If she doesn't want to carry, she shouldn't have sex. Period."

Oh my gosh *speechless* :rolleyes:

If she doesn't want to carry, she shouldn't have sex. Period.
Additionally, should we be assuming that from this statement that you will be abstaining unless you want a child?

Seriously, what century do you live in? It is obviously your belief that sex should only ever be had if pregnancy is the intention and you are entitled to live that way yourself. But I am sorry to have to tell you that at least 5 billion people disagree with you on this. It is none of your business if people have sex for pleasure, it simply does not affect you in any way if they do.

Out of interest, if a man doesn't want to father a child, should he also abstain from sex? And we are talking about all men and women here, not just married couples. I don't want to hear the argument that a man should wear a condom and have sex whenever he chooses, if that is good enough for a man it is good enough for a woman too. I want to know if you believe that abstinance is the primary contraceptive for both genders or just women. This has come up on this thread already, but no one who has suggested women abstain has actually said men should too. Except the rantings about if the woman in a couple abstains the man automatically will. Which was not a satisfactory answer as far as I'm concerned.

Sure its none of my business. But if a man and a woman have sex, don't take proper precautions, and end up that the woman is pregnant, they should ACCEPT responsibility. Accepting responsibility for one's actions is the key to a good society. Unfortunately, America is moving away from that idea - tons of lawsuits about trivial happenings because Americans in general are stupid, abortion is considered a right, killers getting off because it's society's fault, etc.

If you want to have sex, there is a general outcome that if you don't use contraceptives, you will get pregnant, depending on what time it is. If i walk across the street not at a crosswalk into traffic, there is a general outcome that I will get hit by a car. Instead, I choose to walk at the crosswalk, when the white walk light is on.

This argument hasn't even gotten into the part where couples are getting abortions based on cosmetics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1439312,00.html).

Sure its none of my business. But if a man and a woman have sex, don't take proper precautions, and end up that the woman is pregnant, they should ACCEPT responsibility. Accepting responsibility for one's actions is the key to a good society. Unfortunately, America is moving away from that idea - tons of lawsuits about trivial happenings because Americans in general are stupid, abortion is considered a right, killers getting off because it's society's fault, etc.

If you want to have sex, there is a general outcome that if you don't use contraceptives, you will get pregnant, depending on what time it is. If i walk across the street not at a crosswalk into traffic, there is a general outcome that I will get hit by a car. Instead, I choose to walk at the crosswalk, when the white walk light is on.

This argument hasn't even gotten into the part where couples are getting abortions based on cosmetics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1439312,00.html).

What about if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant from that though? Should she have to accept responsibility for something forced upon her?

Well said New Rootopia, deffinitions are essential in this subject. It is impossible to define emotion or love or even life in any scientific sense. But the deffinition for life seperate from the mother being the ability to survive outside the mother seems perfectly reasonable and rational.

Do any anti-abortionists have a couter-argument to that? Not one that is basesless emotive religious stuff, but an argument founded on fact.

Sure its none of my business. But if a man and a woman have sex, don't take proper precautions, and end up that the woman is pregnant, they should ACCEPT responsibility. Accepting responsibility for one's actions is the key to a good society.

So now you're saying that it's ok to have sex, and not want a child, but you should take precautions to prevent pregnancy.

Firstly, make up your mind. You can't make a cohesive argument if you switch position half way through the debate.

Secondly, didn't they teach you in school that no contraceptive is 100% effective? Obviously not.


This argument hasn't even gotten into the part where couples are getting abortions based on cosmetics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1439312,00.html).
That's mainly because even most pro-choice people would agree that cases such as the one you mention are wrong. Not much of a debate to be had there.

Sure its none of my business. But if a man and a woman have sex, don't take proper precautions, and end up that the woman is pregnant, they should ACCEPT responsibility. Accepting responsibility for one's actions is the key to a good society. Unfortunately, America is moving away from that idea - tons of lawsuits about trivial happenings because Americans in general are stupid, abortion is considered a right, killers getting off because it's society's fault, etc.

I actually agree with you on this, in general. People don't take responsibility for themselves a lot these days. It's happening in Britain too, and it isn't right. I also agree that accepting the consequences of unsafe sex would be great in an ideal world.

But we don't live in an ideal world and sometimes taking responsibility for a mistake like unsafe sex isn't the most socially responsible course of action.

What if the couple (let's assume for simplicity's sake that they love each other, will stay together no matter what and agree on what to do - oh so rare) are on minimum wages, have no supportive family and are too young to be emotionally responsible for raising a child. By that I mean, probably under 20, still developing as adults themselves. They don't have enough money to feed, clothe and support this child, they both have to work, so who will raise the child? The child will come into the world unwanted and lacking in basic essentials.

I know you'll say put it up for adoption, but I don't need to tell you that the world is full of unwanted children. Many get passed around foster homes, developing negative social behaviours due to lack of care and stability. Some do get adopted into happy homes, but so many don't.

Maybe, just maybe, the most responsible thing the couple can do for the child, themselves and society is get an abortion.

You simply have to take things on a case by case basis. Abortion needs to be a legal option in our society until everyone is educated enough to know they need to use protection to avoid pregnancy and society is wealthy and compassionate enough to be able to support these children. Not to mention primarily to protect victims of rape.

Apparently baby Jesus approves of reproduction via nonconsensual sex.

Funny, isn't it?

Why is it that by the time I get to these threads they're already 23 pages long? I'm going to make a point. I'm pro-choice, and nothing anyone says will ever change my mind on this issue. And I'm not going to change anyone else's mind. I respect the opinion of those who are pro-life, but there are circumstances where abortions may be necessarry.

A few things to say. Granted, I'm unfamiliar with the law, but I believe that there are no abortions beyond forty days after conception. So, this argument about a "seven-week-old fetus", can't be used.

Many who are "pro-life", are also "pro-death". I'm not slamming you here, but a large proportion of those who wish to deny a woman's right to choose, also encourage the death penalty. (Often encourage the use of the death penalty on doctors who perform abortions. Weird, huh?) Granted there's some logic in that, something about the fetus being innocent, and the mass murderer being irredeemable. Unfortunately, I find myself an optimist. (To an extent.) I believe anyone can be redeemed, and that to murder someone who committed a crime will not solve anything. But, that's not what this discussion is about, at least not in the first five pages I read.

Anyway, the poem, while it was cold, was not overly poorly written. Although the count was weird, and the rhythm was almost non-existent, the message got across. Kind of reminds me of the songs of anti-war protesters in the sixties and seventies, that didn't quite rhyme, or follow a tune very well, but got their message across.

So, how about the people who could have avoided dying had they not had to give birth, those whose systems couldn't handle it? Do their dying screams haunt you in your sleep? Do you feel guilt for those deaths? Or how about the thirteen year-old, who was raped, who had to drop out of school to take care of her baby? Who will live in poverty for the rest of her life, because of being unable to finish school?

I respect your position, but I find it morally indefensable. (Of course, you probably find my position to be morally indefensable. Just do me a favor, and don't blow up any abortion clinics or kill any doctors who give abortions. That really doesn't make your case for you.) Killing adults in the name of being "pro-life", kind of undermines that position.

Apparently baby Jesus approves of reproduction via nonconsensual sex.

Funny, isn't it?
hahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahaha hahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahaha hhahhahaahahahahhahahaha
yes, It most certainly is.

Killing adults in the name of being "pro-life", kind of undermines that position.

But baby Jesus approves of murder, apparently, even though his Dad was pretty adamant on not murdering people. But we all know who's more important, right?

*improbably turns off sarcasm*

*nah, turns it back on*

hahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahaha

hahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahaha

hahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahaha

hahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahaha

hahahahahhahhahaahahahahhahahaha
yes, It most certainly is.

Uh, how about a line-break in there somewhere, Mal? you're wrecking the formatting on the page and all.

Apparently baby Jesus approves of reproduction via nonconsensual sex.

Funny, isn't it?

Sorry, I was on lunch, thats that thing people do mid-day when they have a job.

Look up numbers sometime of rapes that result in pregnancy. It's hardly any.

And about cosmetic abortions - sure most people don't agree they are right. But everything starts out small, doesn't it ? I'm sure at some time, most people didn't consider abortion to be right. The minority produces an agenda that is forcefed into everyone, and people start believing it. Hell, poor people are even getting their abortions publicly funded now. I wish I could get my mistakes 'fixed' with public funds.

Sorry, I was on lunch, thats that thing people do mid-day when they have a job.

Miaowww! Are you trying to insinuate something?

Look up numbers sometime of rapes that result in pregnancy. It's hardly any.

Have you looked those numbers up? Did you find any diffinitive figures? I don't think so. Most rapes go unreported. What do you think about the possibility that a woman who has been raped might go into a clinic and have an abortion without mentioning the rape if she hasn't reported it to the police?

And about cosmetic abortions - sure most people don't agree they are right. But everything starts out small, doesn't it ? I'm sure at some time, most people didn't consider abortion to be right. The minority produces an agenda that is forcefed into everyone, and people start believing it. Hell, poor people are even getting their abortions publicly funded now. I wish I could get my mistakes 'fixed' with public funds.

Laughable. Ok, maybe cosmetic abortions pose a serious threat to the future, but maybe not. Maybe this will remain unacceptable to virtually everyone. And are you actually saying that it is better for poor people to either pay for an abortion or pay for the child? Making themselves even poorer. Wow, that's compassion man, what an amazingly moral person you are! That is such a warped perspective. I tell you what, since you're so righteous and wealthy, why don't you personally adopt all the unwanted children in the world. Yes, do the right thing, you know you want to!

See that suggestion was just as rediculous as yours :-)

Sorry, I was on lunch, thats that thing people do mid-day when they have a job.
Yeah, I'd already had lunch, about 6 hours ago.

Look up numbers sometime of rapes that result in pregnancy. It's hardly any.
Oh really? Care to give any evidence to support this claim? I'd be willing to bet that it's no less, in relative terms, than the number of couples who have sex using contraception and still get pregnant.

And about cosmetic abortions - sure most people don't agree they are right. But everything starts out small, doesn't it ? I'm sure at some time, most people didn't consider abortion to be right.
Actually, it's largely the advent of right-wing catholics who've brought the idea of abortion being wrong with them.
Women have been terminating pregnancies for about as long as long as they've worn clothing. It's only the catholics who made people think it wasn't ok.

Actually, let me revise that. It's the catholics who introduced the idea to the west that it wasn't ok. I believe Islam has similar beliefs, but I could be wrong about that, and Islam has existed for even less time than Catholicism, so my point still stands.

Ho hum, another abortion thread...

"Hello, Abortion thread, how are you?"

"Not good, Penguin, I'm a big steaming pot of sourness and hatred."

"Oh. Well then I'm gonna go..."

Oh really? Care to give any evidence to support this claim? I'd be willing to bet that it's no less, in relative terms, than the number of couples who have sex using contraception and still get pregnant.


It's only the catholics who made people think it wasn't ok.



http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/bioethics/facts/a0027730.cfm

^^ Family.org, sure, but it has documented facts.

* About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3

# 44 percent women who had abortions in the U.S. had no other children;
# 44 percent of women who had abortions in the U.S. had at least one previous abortion;

^^ 44 percent already had abortions ? Who's paying for that? The hardworking taxpayer.

How can you blame Catholics for believing abortion to be wrong? Are baptists ok with it ? Are presbyterians ok with it ? Mormons ?

Its fun to be sarcastic and anti-establishment n all, but it gets old.

Its fun to be sarcastic and anti-establishment n all, but it gets old.

Hmm, funny. You say that like being anti-establishment isn't a valid political standpoint. If that were the case there would never be progress. Democracy wouldn't exist.

http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/bioethics/facts/a0027730.cfm

^^ Family.org, sure, but it has documented facts.
Facts that come from the Centre for Disease Control. Since when did pregnancy become a disease?

You also failed to give any facts refuting my claim that rape-related abortions aren't any less common than ones due to contraception failure.

Added to which, 1% is still a significant proportion when you consider the number of instances of consensual sex to non-consensual. What that basically says is that rape victims are more likely to have an abortion than those who get pregnant after consensual sex.

How can you blame Catholics for believing abortion to be wrong? Are baptists ok with it ? Are presbyterians ok with it ? Mormons ?To be honest, I don't know. But I do know that the catholics started it, which is why I blame them.

Its fun to be sarcastic and anti-establishment n all, but it gets old.
So you'll be stopping then?

*sighs*

*bumps* in an effort to get past Mal's rude format-wrecking post...

And whaddaya know?
It worked.

http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/bioethics/facts/a0027730.cfm

^^ Family.org, sure, but it has documented facts.

* About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest—representing 1 percent of all abortions.3

# 44 percent women who had abortions in the U.S. had no other children;
# 44 percent of women who had abortions in the U.S. had at least one previous abortion;

^^ 44 percent already had abortions ? Who's paying for that? The hardworking taxpayer.

How can you blame Catholics for believing abortion to be wrong? Are baptists ok with it ? Are presbyterians ok with it ? Mormons ?

Its fun to be sarcastic and anti-establishment n all, but it gets old.

Here are some independent statistics for England, Wales and Scotland:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_health/AB25_1998/ab25_1998.pdf

I thought this poem would make for an interesting read. From one of the few right-wing artists I've come across.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?

Thought i'd bring this up again as I think it's brilliant :)

Abortion is SICK !!

Creating life is an option we have when man and woman get together under the sheets or where ever, we all know what can happen and what has to be done - you stick by the unborn baby and help it through life.. Regardless of your position ( rape is a bit different - but its not the childs fualt = adoption ) you can easily give the child LOVE and care for it in your own way, But when people with no moral obligation to life and what they allready have ( LIFE ) are in this position they overlook the childs life for their own. Thats just pure sick and no one can actually claim it's right without being themselves a moral overlooker of LIFE. Our future is so important and to to torture them is EVIL !!

The baby will obviously have connections with the mother physical and mental no matter how you argue ask any REAL mother they will have been through this, And to kill something that is going to give you all the love you could ever ask for is REPULSIVE !!!!!

All they want is love and attention and that is not hard to give, some people think their lifes are more important than an unborn child - SICK SICK WORLD.

Im glad after speaking to my sister who is pregnant today that her child is doing fine, a position ? Her boyfriend will not stay with her and help her with the kid ( DICK-HEAD ) but she ain't gonna kill it thats sick, I'm actually going to move in with her untill she is on her feet and help out with the little man. I can't wait to see his face :)

He actually rolls about her belly making her bump change size sometimes its crazy - but we have a perfect world for him regardless of POSITIONS in life because she MAKES THE EFFORT and still does her university work !!!

MAKE AN EFFORT PEOPLE !!

An other friend of mine's girl is expecting a child, her dad tried to claim she had to get an abortion or move out LOL !! My pal was gonna kill him and the poor lady moved out untill he phoned and said sorry. THATS PURE SICK what a bitch he is !!

Bluestrips2']Thought i'd bring this up again as I think it's brilliant :)

Abortion is SICK !!

In your opinion, you have yet to present any facts to back this up.


Bluestrips2']Creating life is an option we have when man and woman get together under the sheets or where ever, we all know what can happen and what has to be done - you stick by the unborn baby and help it through life..

Yes, creating a life is an option, as is preventing creating a life. Well said.

Bluestrips2']Regardless of your position ( rape is a bit different - but its not the childs fualt = adoption ) you can easily give the child LOVE and care for it in your own way, But when people with no moral obligation to life and what they allready have ( LIFE ) are in this position they overlook the childs life for their own. Thats just pure sick and no one can actually claim it's right without being themselves a moral overlooker of LIFE. Our future is so important and to to torture them is EVIL !!

Kids can't live on love alone. Sorry, but they seriously don't get physical nourishment just from being loved. They also don't magically grow clothes over their bodies just from being loved.

And have you ever been raped or know anyone who has who would discuss it with you? You are saying women who are raped and left pregnant should carry the child to term then put it up for adoption. As someone who has experienced such a thing (not the pregnancy bit) I can tell you that you are making one hell of a big decision for her. Do you have any idea what it would be like to watch your belly grow, to get morning sickness and have to watch and feel this continuing proof of the utter violation that is rape? You can't understand it, because you've never experienced it. I would never wish that upon any woman, to have to carry the result of that act of hate inside for nine months. I'm sorry but you are a bad person for suggesting that.

You say that someone who prioritises their own life over another is sick and lacking morals, ok. Have you read anything I've said? I am a moral person, it is simply that my morals reach beyond your narrow view. I see the world as a large place filled with individuals, each with equal rights and see that there is no black and white in these decisions. I have compassion for ALL people, not just unwanted embyos.

As for torturing an embryo being sick? Hmm, something that cannot feel pain cannot endure torture. That is just the way it is.

Bluestrips2']The baby will obviously have connections with the mother physical and mental no matter how you argue ask any REAL mother they will have been through this, And to kill something that is going to give you all the love you could ever ask for is REPULSIVE !!!!!

Please support this argument with substantiated evidence. Thank you.

And you can't kill something that isn't an individual life form. Would you consider a pulled tooth to be an act of murder? No. I didn't think so :-)

I also take your post to be declining my offer to enter into a formal debate. You consistently use emotive and unsubstantiated statements. Apparently you realise that they wouldn't stand up against my formal arguments. There are actually philosophers out there who have pro-life arguments that hold, so it's not that it's impossible. It is just that your opinion is not based on any facts and you know this.

Bluestrips2']Thought i'd bring this up again as I think it's brilliant :)

Yet again proving your own lack of both maturity, and feeling. Well done.

Abortion is SICK !!
In your opinion.

Creating life is an option we have when man and woman get together under the sheets or where ever, we all know what can happen and what has to be done - you stick by the unborn baby and help it through life..
And if you make the choice to not create a child, through the use of contraception?

Regardless of your position ( rape is a bit different - but its not the childs fualt = adoption )
So you'd suggest that a rape victim should go through the 9 months of pregnancy, being forced to relive her violation every day she sees herself in the mirror? How thoughtful and caring of you.

you can easily give the child LOVE and care for it in your own way, But when people with no moral obligation to life and what they allready have ( LIFE ) are in this position they overlook the childs life for their own.
Actually, the majority of abortions are done because the prospective parents aren't in a position to give a child a happy life, which is what you suggest they deserve.

Thats just pure sick and no one can actually claim it's right without being themselves a moral overlooker of LIFE.
Yes, they can, if you accept that a fetus isn't a life until it can survive outside the womb. I'm not talking about being able to find food on it's own, I'm talking about things like being able to breathe. Fundamental things like that. Also, given what I said above, most abortions are done for the sake of the child.


Our future is so important and to to torture them is EVIL !!
I agree. I just fail to see who is being tortured.

The baby will obviously have connections with the mother physical and mental
Will it? At 2 weeks past conception, when it is no more than a bundle of cells, it has a connection? At 4 weeks, when it's nothing more than a lump of flesh? There's no more connection there than there is between a person and their foot.

no matter how you argue ask any REAL mother they will have been through this
Oh, certainly, anyone who has given birth will be able to describe the intimate connection between them and their child. That connection is not there after only a few weeks however. How can it be, if some women don't realise they are pregnant for as much as 6 weeks?

And to kill something that is going to give you all the love you could ever ask for is REPULSIVE !!!!!
To kill anyone is repulsive to me, regardless of how much they may or may not love you. Is a 6-week old growth really to be considered a life though?

All they want is love and attention and that is not hard to give,
Obviously you've never been a parent, and never really appreciated your own parents. Being a parent is extremely hard work. It's the hardest job possible, and it's a 24/7 position. I wonder how easy it would be for you to love something that had stopped you from having more than 1 hour sleep in 48 hours with it's crying, that you've tried desperately to find a way to stop, and is still crying. And then continuing the process for months, if not longer.

some people think their lifes are more important than an unborn child - SICK SICK WORLD.
Unfortunately, human beings are selfish creatures, but I think the debate over whether abortion is right or not is by far the least of our problems.

Im glad after speaking to my sister who is pregnant today that her child is doing fine, a position ? Her boyfriend will not stay with her and help her with the kid ( DICK-HEAD )
I'm glad your sister and her baby are well, and I share your feelings toward the father.

but she ain't gonna kill it
I hope she has a good support system behind her, for the sake of the child.

thats sick,
Again, in your opinion.

I'm actually going to move in with her untill she is on her feet and help out with the little man. I can't wait to see his face :)
How admirable of you.

He actually rolls about her belly making her bump change size sometimes its crazy - but we have a perfect world for him regardless of POSITIONS in life because she MAKES THE EFFORT and still does her university work !!!
And how easy is she going to find it to continue with her studies after the child is born? She won't be able to take it to class with her.

I laugh at your assertion that you have a perfect world for the child. Have you taken a look at the news recently? This world is far from perfect. Even if you look no farther than your own doorstep, where is the child's father? Don't you think that one day it'll wonder why it doesn't have one, and possibly blame it's mummy?

MAKE AN EFFORT PEOPLE !!
Easier said than done, I'm afraid. I still fail to believe that you have the first idea of the amount of hard work that goes into being a parent.

An other friend of mine's girl is expecting a child, her dad tried to claim she had to get an abortion or move out LOL !!
I wouldn't consider that a laughing matter, and I doubt the girl's father would either. He obviously doesn't believe she's fit to be a parent. Perhaps he has a point.

My pal was gonna kill him
Oh, now that'd be a great solution. Then the girl would have no father, and the father of her unborn child would be in prison for murder. Fantastic start to life that child would have.

and the poor lady moved out untill he phoned and said sorry. THATS PURE SICK what a bitch he is !!
Pure sick? What kind of term is that?

I still have yet to see any actual argument from you, merely you saying "blah blah, THAT'S SICK" and "you sick bitches", and the like.

I can't help but wonder how old you are, and whether you've ever exercised your mental capacity any more than G. W. Bush.

Come back when you've learned to stop shouting, as I have already requested, and have something sensible and coherent to say.

Bluestrips2']
The baby will obviously have connections with the mother physical and mental no matter how you argue ask any REAL mother they will have been through this, And to kill something that is going to give you all the love you could ever ask for is REPULSIVE !!!!!

All they want is love and attention and that is not hard to give, some people think their lifes are more important than an unborn child - SICK SICK WORLD.

Yes, ask any woman who has given birth and she will detail the connection forged over 9 months of growing the child. 9 months, not 9 weeks. Bit of a difference there.

No, all they want is the latest Playstation game, the most fashionable trainers, more pudding.... Which of course can all be paid for with the same love that grows their clothes and puts food in their tummies. You really don't realise what raising a child involves, you've never paid any attention to anyone who has ever had a child. As New Rootopia said, being a parent is the hardest job in the world. And quite frankly, not everyone is up to the job. Not everyone SHOULD be a parent. And the worst thing is that you want to force people who would be, to be bad parents! That really isn't very compassionate towards the child, is it?

The poem seems to equate abortion on a wide scale and genocide. By this measure surely even the act of sex itself is genocide due to the millions of sperm that perish before they can reach the egg - all those potential Mozarts... Likewise abstention is equally evil, you deprive the unborn of the chance to life, fertilisation may not have occurred but that is merely a technicality. By the choice to abstain, a potential person has been robbed of the opportunity to "see the stars".

I see people constantly regurgitating the argument that any act which deprives an unborn person of life is evil, almost as though their hypothetical future rights should be enshrined in law as rights that they should currently possess. I felt it would be an injustice not to take this argument one step further.

Its called childbirth, not spawn.
Your primary life goal is children, every other goal you have comes second, if you dont agree then your very immature or barren.

Why? Why should I be "required" to make my defunct genes go any further along into the human genome?
Did it ever occur to you that some people just shouldn't breed on principle? I happen to think I'm one of them. Also, I think that having a child just to feel as if you are living on is ridiculous and "barren". A lot of other people have been there and done that. "I" want to do something different. I feel that the mark I will leave on society will be carried out another way, not through the continuation of my DNA. There is nothing immature or barren about this. If anything it has been a decision that has required a lot of thought.

I am quite sure that I am *not* the only or the first one who has felt this way.

Besides, I already have one baby to take care of: My Wonderful Husband. (Who has supported me and agreed to all decisions regarding "us")

And yes 77Seven77, I too think of it at least once a day, the what if, what would it be like if i didn't. It's curiosity.

YOUR primary life goal might be children, but, since we are no longer 'mere' animals obeying our hormones, perhaps we can expand our collective horizons a little further?


We plan, mere animals rut.
If women want to put child bearing off to a later age when they wont produce as well, and the child won't benefit from healthier younger woman genes, then these women should be left behind, see how great their career is in forty years time when their all alone.

[QUOTE=Gessler]

[QUOTE]One assumes that you MEAN a woman ONLY has a foetus 'in there' because "we" (men?) put the foetus in there?

Yeah OK we put the fetus in there, we somehow shot a fetus into the womans womb, seed, sperm Im talking about here, without it women are nothing, as are men.


Surely, if you weren't so intent on this apparent reduction of women to mere vessels, you would see that the "we" in the equation could have saved a lot of trouble by assuming HALF the responsibility, and simply not letting the snake out of the cage?

They are vessels and not mere ones at that, the carrying and birth of a child is the most fantastic thing a woman can do, it dwarfs anything men can fully create.
The woman can say no to the snake.

[QUOTE=Zelda Hime]Why? Why should I be "required" to make my defunct genes go any further along into the human genome?

I dont know what you mean by your defunct genes, can you shed some light here?


Did it ever occur to you that some people just shouldn't breed on principle? I happen to think I'm one of them. Also, I think that having a child just to feel as if you are living on is ridiculous and "barren". A lot of other people have been there and done that. "I" want to do something different. I feel that the mark I will leave on society will be carried out another way, not through the continuation of my DNA. There is nothing immature or barren about this. If anything it has been a decision that has required a lot of thought.

Well it sounds like you cant have kids anyway right?


Besides, I already have one baby to take care of: My Wonderful Husband. (Who has supported me and agreed to all decisions regarding "us")

It sounds like your 'baby' husband is too scared to assert any authority, which is probably why you call him a baby.

We plan, mere animals rut.
By that logic, the are plenty of "people" who are actually mere animals.

If women want to put child bearing off to a later age when they wont produce as well, and the child won't benefit from healthier younger woman genes,
I hesitate to point this out to you, but the genes are just as healthy at 50 as at 15. Your genes never change (barring medical conditions). The difference is that older women are generally less fertile, so it's harder for them to pecome preganant in the first place, but once they are, the child would be as healthy as if the woman had become pregnant much earlier.

then these women should be left behind, see how great their career is in forty years time when their all alone.
So a woman who wants to ensure that her child(ren) will grow up in a financially secure environment should be left behind? All women over 25 are too old to be mothers, it seems you think.

It's funny that the Pro-life people care so much about an unborn baby... untill it's born. After it's born, no one cares. That's the whole point of abortion.

If one cannot provide a proper home enviroment, be an adeqaute parent, or provide the love the child needs to develop normally, it is wholey ethical to abort a baby. I think it would be quite unethical to do otherwise, but than again, it's the women in question's choice, not mine or anyone else's.

We plan, mere animals rut.
If women want to put child bearing off to a later age when they wont produce as well, and the child won't benefit from healthier younger woman genes, then these women should be left behind, see how great their career is in forty years time when their all alone.

Yeah, all alone with their circle of friends, with the people from work, with the memories of a rich, eventful and determined life... unlike those women my mother takes care of, in the old folks home, their money sued off their backs by their loving children who didn't even show up for a Sunday visit in 4 years....

You live in a nice, fluffy, pink world, don't you?

Yeah OK we put the fetus in there, we somehow shot a fetus into the womans womb, seed, sperm Im talking about here, without it women are nothing, as are men.
Well this would be easier to respond to if it was coherent english, but I'll do my best.

Why do men always assume that without us, women are worthless? The simple fact is, that if there we no men, women could still reproduce. It would be complicated, but it could happen. Without women, however, we can't. We simply don't have the equipment.

They are vessels and not mere ones at that, the carrying and birth of a child is the most fantastic thing a woman can do, it dwarfs anything men can fully create.
The woman can say no to the snake.
Some women aren't given the option to say no. I assume from this comment that you believe the responsibility lies entirely on the woman. Only a simpleton could come up with an excuse like that to justify guys having sex with anything that moves, and the consequences be blowed.

The guy can wear a condom, too.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]By that logic, the are plenty of "people" who are actually mere animals.

I agree with that statement on so many different levels.

I hesitate to point this out to you, but the genes are just as healthy at 50 as at 15. Your genes never change (barring medical conditions). The difference is that older women are generally less fertile, so it's harder for them to pecome preganant in the first place, but once they are, the child would be as healthy as if the woman had become pregnant much earlier.

I dont think they are, how could they be?

So a woman who wants to ensure that her child(ren) will grow up in a financially secure environment should be left behind? All women over 25 are too old to be mothers, it seems you think.

That depends on how long she puts childbirth off, and the longer she waits, the chances of her having alot of kids diminish.
A secure financial enviroment can easily be provided by her husband, and she could work from home, providing another income and looking after the kids, there are plenty of businness oportunitys where you can work from home.
hears approaching feminists and zips on flamesuit.

Yeah, all alone with their circle of friends, with the people from work, with the memories of a rich, eventful and determined life... unlike those women my mother takes care of, in the old folks home, their money sued off their backs by their loving children who didn't even show up for a Sunday visit in 4 years....
You live in a nice, fluffy, pink world, don't you?

Sad about those women your mother looks after, their kids sound like utter ratbags and sound like they were badly raised, probably the result of no discipline from dad, which is sadly lacking and not encouraged in many western kids now.

Sad about those women your mother looks after, their kids sound like utter ratbags and sound like they were badly raised, probably the result of no discipline from dad, which is sadly lacking and not encouraged in many western kids now.

These women are 65 +
When they raised their kids, you can be sure that it was in the old and authoritarian style. There is an old, old proverb "A mother may be able to feed 12 children, but 12 children will not feed a mother". So, if you're counting on kids to keep you company in old age, reconsider.


I dont think they are, how could they be?


You don't know too much about biology, do you? Or women, for that matter.


That depends on how long she puts childbirth off, and the longer she waits, the chances of her having alot of kids diminish.
A secure financial enviroment can easily be provided by her husband, and she could work from home, providing another income and looking after the kids, there are plenty of businness oportunitys where you can work from home.
hears approaching feminists and zips on flamesuit.

What gave you the idea that every mother is married? Again, I'm amazed at the nice pink world your brain seems to live in...

So we ban abortion and what does that acheive?

Women still choosing to abort their baby and being forced to do it in an unsafe manner resulting in a dead baby AND a dead mother. Fantastic.

Meanwhile, rather than providing proper education about how to use condoms and avoid the situation entirely, we teach 'abstinence only' because we all know that telling a TEENAGER not to have sex will work, right?

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]
Why do men always assume that without us, women are worthless? The simple fact is, that if there we no men, women could still reproduce. It would be complicated, but it could happen. Without women, however, we can't. We simply don't have the equipment.

lol explain how women can produce kids without men, some mutation perhaps?

Some women aren't given the option to say no.

Thats called rape, and I hold men who do this in the most despised light I can come up with.

assume from this comment that you believe the responsibility lies entirely on the woman.

Yes. Its her body isnt it?



The guy can wear a condom, too.

Yes, but condoms have led to a great loss of morality.

lol explain how women can produce kids without men, some mutation perhaps?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1200443,00.html

It's already happening.... ;)

[QUOTE=Cabra West]These women are 65 +
When they raised their kids, you can be sure that it was in the old and authoritarian style. There is an old, old proverb "A mother may be able to feed 12 children, but 12 children will not feed a mother". So, if you're counting on kids to keep you company in old age, reconsider.

Well they must have done something wrong(their husbands too) again they have my deepest sympathy of course.


You don't know too much about biology, do you?

I know some.

Or women, for that matter.

Who does, they dont even understand themselves, so how the hell are we supposed too?



What gave you the idea that every mother is married?

Well if she isnt, she should be. Widows excluded, unless they want too again.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1200443,00.html

It's already happening.... ;)

Dear oh dear, a fan of frankenstein science are we?
What makes you think it will work with humans.

[QUOTE]

Well they must have done something wrong(their husbands too) again they have my deepest sympathy of course.

<snip>

Well if she isnt, she should be. Widows excluded, unless they want too again.


I'm begining to see the pattern here.... while we are discussing the world and the problem AS IT IS, you are discussing it AS IT SHOULD BE ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN IDEAS.
Ain't gonna work... you can't just MAKE people live perfect little lives just because you think that's how it should be.
If you want to solve a problem, you can't just assume that the circumstances are the way you imagine them and then point out a solution based on that assumption. You have to take in the real, hard facts, and try to figure out a way to solve the problem based on THAT.

[QUOTE=Bogstonia]So we ban abortion and what does that acheive?

Less murder.

Women still choosing to abort their baby and being forced to do it in an unsafe manner resulting in a dead baby AND a dead mother. Fantastic.

Sad I know, but it will encourage all the women and men who see flushing a baby akin to a piece of garbage thought to reconsider.

Meanwhile, rather than providing proper education about how to use condoms and avoid the situation entirely, we teach 'abstinence only' because we all know that telling a TEENAGER not to have sex will work, right?

Bringing back a good old healthy dose of morality into western society, will work alot better than any state funded sex education program.

See the amount of teen pregnancies, whats going wrong after thirty plus years of sex education? The removal of the father as a figure of authority in the west has caused alot of this.

Dear oh dear, a fan of frankenstein science are we?
What makes you think it will work with humans.

Experience.

1) Mice are mamals, so both their genetic structure and their reproduction methods are closely related to human structures

2) What CAN be done, WILL be done.

[QUOTE=Gessler]


I'm begining to see the pattern here.... while we are discussing the world and the problem AS IT IS, you are discussing it AS IT SHOULD BE ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN IDEAS.
Ain't gonna work... you can't just MAKE people live perfect little lives just because you think that's how it should be.
If you want to solve a problem, you can't just assume that the circumstances are the way you imagine them and then point out a solution based on that assumption. You have to take in the real, hard facts, and try to figure out a way to solve the problem based on THAT.

Not to mention that his idea of a 'perfect little life' is hardly the same as everyone else's. Not every person wants to settle down with 2.3 kids, father off to work while the mother cleans/cooks/reproduces and then to come home at night to sit around the Bible for the nightly sermon. [/End rant] :)

[QUOTE=Cabra West]Experience.
1) Mice are mamals, so both their genetic structure and their reproduction methods are closely related to human structures

So your prepared to mix 600 eggs to produce one human being, how many eggs are carried by women a year, two a month isnt it?
Where are you going to find all the donors for all these eggs?
Even if this cold science of yours does come to fruition, the human population would fall dramatically without male imput

2) What CAN be done, WILL be done.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case.
But this is science gone in the wrong direction.

[QUOTE]

Less murder.

-------------------------------------

Sad I know, but it will encourage all the women and men who see flushing a baby akin to a piece of garbage thought to reconsider.

--------------------------------------

Bringing back a good old healthy dose of morality into western society, will work alot better than any state funded sex education program.

See the amount of teen pregnancies, whats going wrong after thirty plus years of sex education? The removal of the father as a figure of authority in the west has caused alot of this.

I was gonna respond to your post but what would be the point? You obviously just want everyone to be forced into living their lives the way you and your individual ideals dictate without taking into account any tiny shard of actual reality or other's people's choice to live their own lives as they see fit.

Hey, I got a joke you might like too. Why shouldn't women be allowed to drive?

Because there is no road between the kitchen and the bedroom! *Boom*Boom*

[QUOTE=Cabra West][QUOTE=Gessler]

I'm begining to see the pattern here.... while we are discussing the world and the problem AS IT IS, you are discussing it AS IT SHOULD BE ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN IDEAS.

Not just mine Cabra, these ideas are shared by millions of people, you only find fault with them, because they take away your freedom and responsibility.

My ideas for society, mighten work for your feminist utopia, and your ideas certainly wouldnt work in my father knows best utopia(which he does)
so its not whos right or wrong here, but how we think society should best work.

Ain't gonna work... you can't just MAKE people live perfect little lives just because you think that's how it should be.

I'll do my best anyway.

If you want to solve a problem, you can't just assume that the circumstances are the way you imagine them and then point out a solution based on that assumption.

I never assume anything, I hear their side of it first, and go from there.

You have to take in the real, hard facts, and try to figure out a way to solve the problem based on THAT.

I do.

[QUOTE=Bogstonia][QUOTE=Gessler]
I was gonna respond to your post but what would be the point? You obviously just want everyone to be forced into living their lives the way you and your individual ideals dictate without taking into account any tiny shard of actual reality or other's people's choice to live their own lives as they see fit.

I believe responsibility is more important than individual ideals.


Hey, I got a joke you might like too. Why shouldn't women be allowed to drive?
Because there is no road between the kitchen and the bedroom! *Boom*Boom*

Why do women wear white to the wedding?
Because thats what colour most kitchen appliances come in.

*Boom*Boom* :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Cabra West]

Not to mention that his idea of a 'perfect little life' is hardly the same as everyone else's. Not every person wants to settle down with 2.3 kids, father off to work while the mother cleans/cooks/reproduces and then to come home at night to sit around the Bible for the nightly sermon. [/End rant] :)

No your right it isnt, but it is the ideal life for alot of people, and you have no right to find fault with it, if thats what they want.
Give me your above scenario anyday to say, kids come home to absent parents, both at work for more money to buy stuff they dont really need.

[QUOTE=Bogstonia]
Give me your above scenario anyday to say, kids come home to absent parents, both at work for more money to buy stuff they dont really need.

Or worse - both at work to buy the stuff they can't live without. It happens.

"Shouldn'a had thems damned kids, Edna."

:p

No your right it isnt, but it is the ideal life for alot of people, and you have no right to find fault with it, if thats what they want.
Just curious, do you feel this way about gay marriage?

Give me your above scenario anyday to say, kids come home to absent parents, both at work for more money to buy stuff they dont really need.
Yes, it is a good scenario for raising kids but people shouldn't be forced into it. It's hardly practical either in today's world.

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Cabra West]

Not just mine Cabra, these ideas are shared by millions of people, you only find fault with them, because they take away your freedom and responsibility.

My ideas for society, mighten work for your feminist utopia, and your ideas certainly wouldnt work in my father knows best utopia(which he does)
so its not whos right or wrong here, but how we think society should best work.



I'll do my best anyway.



I never assume anything, I hear their side of it first, and go from there.



I do.


Well, facts are:

-Abortions WILL take place, no matter what the legal situation will be.
-Not all pregnant women will make good mothers. And a mother who is forced to be a mother against her will, will be a bad mother.
-You can't MAKE people love anybody or anything. Telling them they should is not going to work.
-Not all social and family situations will allow for pregnancy and adoption
-Father figures are extremely overrated, as are mother figures. Either of them can raise a child without problems.
-Pregnancy is not a legal duty, it's not even a right. It's a biological possibility.

No your right it isnt, but it is the ideal life for alot of people, and you have no right to find fault with it, if thats what they want.
Give me your above scenario anyday to say, kids come home to absent parents, both at work for more money to buy stuff they dont really need.
Alright, someone needed to say it:
Could you PLEASE stop quoting with the syntax you are? It's damn annoying to have something like QUOTE so and so in the quote box every time someone responds to one of your posts!

I dont think they are, how could they be?
A someone else has already commented, your knowledge of biology is lamentable.

That depends on how long she puts childbirth off, and the longer she waits, the chances of her having alot of kids diminish.
Why should she want to have a lot of kids? Very few women actually want more than 2 or 3, and those that do generally decide to start early.

A secure financial enviroment can easily be provided by her husband, and she could work from home, providing another income and looking after the kids, there are plenty of businness oportunitys where you can work from home.
Can it, really? You obviously have no idea of the expense involved in raising a child. Even if the father of the child(ren) can, why shouldn't the mother contribute?
I don't know about the backward society that you seem to live in, but where I come from, there are quite a few work-from-home opportunities. But none of them will bring in much, if any money, unless you commit a large amount of hours to working at it. Hours which you, yourself, have claimed should be spent looking after the children, and not working.

hears approaching feminists and zips on flamesuit.
Flamesuit won't protect you from the thoughtful men with big hammers.

[QUOTE=Gessler]
Or worse - both at work to buy the stuff they can't live without. It happens.
"Shouldn'a had thems damned kids, Edna."
:p

People place too much value on stuff to keep their kids occupied now, unfortunately.
When I grew up we got virtually nothing but we were happy neverless.

[QUOTE=Bogstonia]Just curious, do you feel this way about gay marriage?

Gay marriage is an abomination, and as far as I'm concerned doesnt hold any relevant place in society. I have no problem with gays being with each other if thats what they want, as long as I dont have to see it.

Yes, it is a good scenario for raising kids but people shouldn't be forced into it. It's hardly practical either in today's world.

Todays world is mostly the problem unfortunately.

[QUOTE=Cabra West][QUOTE=Gessler][QUOTE]
Well, facts are:

According to Cabra west. :rolleyes:

-Abortions WILL take place, no matter what the legal situation will be.
Yep.


-Not all pregnant women will make good mothers. And a mother who is forced to be a mother against her will, will be a bad mother.

Any woman can be agood mother, and I never said anything about forcing a woman to be a mother. If she doesnt want to, then bon voyage sweetheart.

-You can't MAKE people love anybody or anything. Telling them they should is not going to work.

Like say telling people to accept pc without fault or question for instance?



-Not all social and family situations will allow for pregnancy and adoption

And they are unfortunate indeed.


-Father figures are extremely overrated, as are mother figures. Either of them can raise a child without problems.

Neither are overrated and a well balanced child needs both equally.

-Pregnancy is not a legal duty, it's not even a right. It's a biological possibility.

And should be persued, for that is in the end, the only reason were really here, to procreate and experience the joys of bringing up children, and moulding them into well balanced adults.

Sad about those women your mother looks after, their kids sound like utter ratbags and sound like they were badly raised, probably the result of no discipline from dad, which is sadly lacking and not encouraged in many western kids now.
Why should the discipline come from the father? My father ran out on us before I started school, and if anything, it's made me appreciate my mother, and the rest of my family even more.

I think you'll find that discipline is still actively encouraged, it's just beating your kid that isn't.

Why should the discipline come from the father?

He does it best. Of course it can also come from the mother.

[QUOTE]My father ran out on us before I started school, and if anything, it's made me appreciate my mother, and the rest of my family even more.

Well of course it would, as if your mother running out on you, would make you appreciate your father more.


I think you'll find that discipline is still actively encouraged,

Yeah right.

it's just beating your kid that isn't.

Depends what you call beating I guess.

I think you'll find that discipline is still actively encouraged, it's just beating your kid that isn't.

I remember the good old days when i would get chased around the house with a wooden spoon when I was in trouble. Made me appreciate the value of the wall for hiding my ass from it :p

<snip>

I notice you didn't place any facts to oppose those I stated, instead you kept telling how the world SHOULD be....
And, no, not every woman can be a good mother. I can't, ergo I don't have kids.

So I've got no reason to be here, so what? :rolleyes:

lol explain how women can produce kids without men, some mutation perhaps?
Well, that might well happen, but the technology we have now allows for the possibility, as has been pointed out.

Yes. Its her body isnt it?
Yes, and if she chooses not to have a child grow inside it, as the result of the most intimate expression of her love for a man, that's also her choice.

Yes, but condoms have led to a great loss of morality.
They have? That's news to me. Please explain, if you can.

I remember the good old days when i would get chased around the house with a wooden spoon when I was in trouble. Made me appreciate the value of the wall for hiding my ass from it :p

If we played up at dinner my dad would grab us by the necks and ram our skulls together.

If we played up at dinner my dad would grab us by the necks and ram our skulls together.


*roflmao Thanks for the explanation... :D

I notice you didn't place any facts to oppose those I stated, instead you kept telling how the world SHOULD be....
And, no, not every woman can be a good mother. I can't, ergo I don't have kids.
So I've got no reason to be here, so what? :rolleyes:

You didnt place any facts either, as in sources, you virtually told how you think the world is or should be too, with your own spin on it.
Just because you cant have kids doesnt mean you cant be a good mother, you can always adopt if you want to.

*roflmao Thanks for the explanation... :D

A few head bumps dont change much Cabra, except maybe improved my table manners drastically.

Less murder.
Murder of who?

Sad I know, but it will encourage all the women and men who see flushing a baby akin to a piece of garbage thought to reconsider.
Firstly, at the time of termination, a fetus is usually no more than a lump of flesh. I wouldn't call that a baby, personally.
Secondly, very few people who've been through the experience would think of it so casually. This once again reveals your total lack of understanding of what the experience of abortion can do to someone.

Bringing back a good old healthy dose of morality into western society, will work alot better than any state funded sex education program.
There's plenty of morality in western society. It just doesn't seem to match up with your narrow-minded ideas.

See the amount of teen pregnancies, whats going wrong after thirty plus years of sex education? The removal of the father as a figure of authority in the west has caused alot of this.
Don't make me laugh. The father hasn't been removed as a figure of authority. He's just been joined by the mother. Society finally remembered that raising children is a partnership.

You didnt place any facts either, as in sources, you virtually told how you think the world is or should be too, with your own spin on it.
Just because you cant have kids doesnt mean you cant be a good mother, you can always adopt if you want to.Um... we've had situations where abortions weren't legal and aren't legal. In the past, women went to "Angelmakers" in order to get rid of unwanted children. I'm pretty sure Cabra can tell you what Irish girls do when they get pregnant unintentionally: They go to England, because abortions are legal there. A lot of the things she posted are facts, though the overrating is quite subjective. I, however, tend to agree with Cabra on it being overrated. The need for a fatherly figure does not excuse keeping an abusive husband in the household.

A few head bumps dont change much Cabra, except maybe improved my table manners drastically.You've been showing evidence to the contrary... :rolleyes:

You didnt place any facts either, as in sources, you virtually told how you think the world is or should be too, with your own spin on it.
Just because you cant have kids doesnt mean you cant be a good mother, you can always adopt if you want to.

You misunderstand me. I can't be a good mother, so I won't have children. Not "I can't have children so I won't be a mother"

I never said the world "should be" anything, I take it as it is. If you require statistics regarding the number of abortions in countries where abortion is illegal, or on the number of single mothers and abusive fathers (or abusive parents on the whole) check here (http://www.fedstats.gov/) for the US and google for the world...

"I'm against abortion, but for killing babies."
-Maddox

You misunderstand me. I can't be a good mother, so I won't have children. Not "I can't have children so I won't be a mother"
Pardon me for asking, but why not? :confused:

Neither are overrated and a well balanced child needs both equally.
Again you show your complete ignorance. I, myself, am a perfect example of how someone can grow up with only 1 parent, and be perfectly normal. A well balanced child needs love, but the source of that love is irrelevant.

And should be persued, for that is in the end, the only reason were really here, to procreate and experience the joys of bringing up children, and moulding them into well balanced adults.
So we have free will, and our own desires, but we're supposed to ignore all of that to become baby factories? It's views like that which are causing the amount of hunger there is in this world.

You've been showing evidence to the contrary... :rolleyes:

Whatever clown.

Pardon me for asking, but why not? :confused:

I don't like babies, first of all. Never did. I'm great with teenagers, I was active for 15 years in a youth organisation in Germany, but I just don't like babies or little kids.

In my opinion, there are more than enough people on the planet, I would feel somehow guilty to add another one.

I wouldn't be able to provide a loving and stable home, coming from a pretty disfunctional family myself. As a result, I tend to suffer from depressions and survived two suicide attempts. That kind environment and instable mothering can't be good for a child.

These are just the main three reasons... so, of course I'm using contraception. If that failed, however, I would like to have all options open, although I can't say how I would decide.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]Murder of who?

Wholesale slaughter of potential human beings, sacrificed on the unholy alter of convenience.

Firstly, at the time of termination, a fetus is usually no more than a lump of flesh. I wouldn't call that a baby, personally.

I would, because it has the potential to be one.
And there have been alot of abortions well past that stage.

Secondly, very few people who've been through the experience would think of it so casually. This once again reveals your total lack of understanding of what the experience of abortion can do to someone.
So if its so bad and traumatic, why are so many women having them?
I think your being a touch dramatic here.

There's plenty of morality in western society.

Yes there is.

It just doesn't seem to match up with your narrow-minded ideas.

It does, and its the only right morality in western society, I d hate to see what you consider morality, if you disagree with my ideals.




Don't make me laugh. The father hasn't been removed as a figure of authority.

He has, you either havent been around for the last thirty years, or your being obtuse, or your just naive.


He's just been joined by the mother. Society finally remembered that raising children is a partnership.

Societys always known that, just not the silly version currently being forced apon people by social engineers such as feminists and socialists.

Again you show your complete ignorance. I, myself, am a perfect example of how someone can grow up with only 1 parent, and be perfectly normal. A well balanced child needs love, but the source of that love is irrelevant.



... and I would be an example that children that grow up with both parents can suffer from just that.
Really, the happiest day in my life so far was the day my mother decided to leave my father. :)

Don't feed the troll!

[QUOTE=Cabra West]You misunderstand me. I can't be a good mother, so I won't have children. Not "I can't have children so I won't be a mother"

Well thanks for finally shedding some light, all you said was you had some problem with having children, most people would assume that was of a physical nature, not mental. You could have just said so, to begin with.

Gessler, so you would rather have a child (once born) "potentially" (using your words) suffer (and "potentially the mother") through lack of love, financial problems, psycological problems and so on?

Why should the discipline come from the father?

He does it best. Of course it can also come from the mother.
He does? How so?

Depends what you call beating I guess.
I define beating as hitting with intent to harm. I don't know how else you could define it.

Well thanks for finally shedding some light, all you said was you had some problem with having children, most people would assume that was of a physical nature, not mental. You could have just said so, to begin with.


And, no, not every woman can be a good mother. I can't, ergo I don't have kids.

I said I can't be a good mother, so I won't be any mother.

[QUOTE=New Rootopia]Again you show your complete ignorance. I, myself, am a perfect example of how someone can grow up with only 1 parent, and be perfectly normal. A well balanced child needs love, but the source of that love is irrelevant.

Yeah, my dog loves me too, maybe he should have raised me? :rolleyes: You say your well balanced, but how do I know that, and you could be not well balanced, only thinking you are. Being happy doesnt necessarily make you well balanced.



So we have free will, and our own desires, but we're supposed to ignore all of that to become baby factories? It's views like that which are causing the amount of hunger there is in this world.

Well you are baby factorys, whether you produce or not doesnt change that.
The amount of hunger is being caused by socialist tinpot third world dictators who rob their countrys blind and stick the money in untouchable swiss bank accounts.

If we played up at dinner my dad would grab us by the necks and ram our skulls together.
That explains a lot.

Yeah, my dog loves me, maybe he should have raised me? :rolleyes: You say your well balanced, but how do I know that, and you could be not well balanced, only thinking you are. Being happy doesnt necessarily make you well balanced.
You call the dog thing an arguement? Anyway, does being unhappy make you balanced?


Well you are baby factorys, whether you produce or not doesnt change that.
The amount of hunger is being caused by socialist tinpot third world dictators who rob their countrys blind and stick the money in untouchable swiss bank accounts.I'm going to try to ignore that you just posted something like that. You know what? Women so far haven't been able to reproduce in any way that can be compared to a "factory" (disgusting comparison if you ask me) without the help of men.

I said I can't be a good mother, so I won't be any mother.

Well of course when I said any woman can be agood mother, this was on the basis that they liked children, your right if you hate kids then no you cant be a good mother.
I feel truly sorry for you, to hate kids you must be seriously screwed up.

[QUOTE]

Yeah, my dog loves me too, maybe he should have raised me? :rolleyes: You say your well balanced, but how do I know that, and you could be not well balanced, only thinking you are. Being happy doesnt necessarily make you well balanced.



Well, his/her opinons are more moderate than yours, less abusive language is applied, no desire to live in the past, no discrimination because of sex, no display of unreasonably choleric behaviour...

In comparisson to you, I would say he/she is more in balance.

Well of course when I said any woman can be agood mother, this was on the basis that they liked children, your right if you hate kids then no you cant be a good mother.
I feel truly sorry for you, to hate kids you must be seriously screwed up.To hate the idea of mixed heritage can be considered more screwed up...

Well of course when I said any woman can be agood mother, this was on the basis that they liked children, your right if you hate kids then no you cant be a good mother.
I feel truly sorry for you, to hate kids you must be seriously screwed up.

I am. Thanks to my dear father...

[QUOTE=Laerod]You call the dog thing an arguement? Anyway, does being unhappy make you balanced?

Well you said 'all you need is love' didnt you? If you mean by all the time, then no, I guess not.

I'm going to try to ignore that you just posted something like that. You know what? Women so far haven't been able to reproduce in any way that can be compared to a "factory" (disgusting comparison if you ask me) without the help of men.

Well I didnt bring up the factory comparison, I just repeated it.
If women were meant to reproduce without men, they would be already doing so.
Much as feminists are loathe to admit, men and women are meant for each other.

[QUOTE]

Wholesale slaughter of potential human beings, sacrificed on the unholy alter of convenience.
So surely abstaining from sex, and contraception are just as bad, since they prevent potential humans from existing too.
Also, a little point, is that you can't kill something that isn't alive, and if there's no death, there's no slaughter.

I would, because it has the potential to be one.
It has the potential to be one, but isn't yet. Eggs have the potential to become chickens. Do you disagree with eating them too?

So if its so bad and traumatic, why are so many women having them?
I think your being a touch dramatic here.
Having known people who have been through it, and relationships fall apart because of it, I can be sure that I'm not being dramatic. Women take the choice because it's the lesser of a number of bad options.

It does, and its the only right morality in western society, I d hate to see what you consider morality, if you disagree with my ideals.
Will I don't agree with beating someone who can't protect themselves, for starters. You can't claim that a morality that endorses such a thing is right.

He has, you either havent been around for the last thirty years, or your being obtuse, or your just naive.
Well, I'll be 26 on monday, so I know full well how the father figure has developed over most of the last 30 years, and I seem to have a more balanced opinion that yours.

Societys always known that, just not the silly version currently being forced apon people by social engineers such as feminists and socialists.
Has it really? How good of you to admit that.

I am. Thanks to my dear father...

Well get help about that, if you continue the cycle of hatred on, you are just making what he did to you even worse.
Your father by the sound of it, should never have been one to begin with.

Well you said 'all you need is love' didnt you? If you mean by all the time, then no, I guess not.I didn't.

Well I didnt bring up the factory comparison, I just repeated it.
If women were meant to reproduce without men, they would be already doing so.
Much as feminists are loathe to admit, men and women are meant for each other.You were asked about it and the person asking you certainly meant that it was derogatory and not a good comparison. You verified it. It doesn't matter whether you were the first one to bring it up or not, the way you handled the subject was despicable.
By the path, I think you mistake feminists for lesbians. There's a difference.

[QUOTE]

Yeah, my dog loves me too, maybe he should have raised me? :rolleyes:
Of course not. But then, I'd question whether your dog really loves you, or just knows you'll feed it.

You say your well balanced, but how do I know that, and you could be not well balanced, only thinking you are. Being happy doesnt necessarily make you well balanced.
I'm generally far from happy, but I think my posts speak for themselves as justification of being a balanced individual. Unlike yours.

Well you are baby factorys, whether you produce or not doesnt change that.
So now you're not including yourself as part of the human race? Well done.

The amount of hunger is being caused by socialist tinpot third world dictators who rob their countrys blind and stick the money in untouchable swiss bank accounts.
That doesn't help, no, but right-wing, money-grabbing idiots who run the most powerful nation on the planet according to what daddy's drinking buddies tell him lends a pretty big helping hand too.

[QUOTE=Cabra West][QUOTE=Gessler]
Well, his/her opinons are more moderate than yours,

That doesnt make them better.


less abusive language is applied,

What abusive language have I applied here?

no desire to live in the past,

I dont live in it, I just hold its ideals up, because their better than todays ones. A lot better, and alot more sensible.


no discrimination because of sex,

I cant see what discrimination here you mean.


no display of unreasonably choleric behaviour...

What anger? Compared to some of the pc freaks on here Ive been quite placid.

In comparisson to you, I would say he/she is more in balance.

Who knows, but that doesnt mean their ideals are better than mine.

Your father by the sound of it, should never have been one to begin with.

ABSOLUTELY correct. Just as my mother shouldn't have been a mother in the first place. Or rather not at her age and in her situation. She should have had an abortion and spared me years and years of hell...

Gessler, so you would rather have a child (once born) "potentially" (using your words) suffer (and "potentially the mother") through lack of love, financial problems, psycological problems and so on?

Well your painting a very bleak picture here, and your assuming that the majority of women have abortions because their lives are messed up, when the majority have them because they didnt take the proper precautions, or the proper precautions failed.

Who knows, but that doesnt mean their ideals are better than mine.
No, but it does mean that they're far more rational.

Well your painting a very bleak picture here, and your assuming that the majority of women have abortions because their lives are messed up, when the majority have them because they didnt take the proper precautions, or the proper precautions failed.And you think women like that would actually provide all the things 77Seven77 mentioned?

Well your painting a very bleak picture here, and your assuming that the majority of women have abortions because their lives are messed up, when the majority have them because they didnt take the proper precautions, or the proper precautions failed.

Numbers, please. And sources...

ABSOLUTELY correct. Just as my mother shouldn't have been a mother in the first place. Or rather not at her age and in her situation. She should have had an abortion and spared me years and years of hell...

Look your here now, so try to make the best of it eh?
You told me I shouldnt live in the past and be such a mysogynist, and your dragging the past around with you now.
Your parents by the sound of it did a lousy job bringing you up, so dont blame yourself.

Numbers, please. And sources...

I'll provide mine when you provide sources saying most abortions are as a result of messed up, psychologically screwed up kids, that are dirt poor.

And you think women like that would actually provide all the things 77Seven77 mentioned?
Women like what?

Look your here now, so try to make the best of it eh?
You told me I shouldnt live in the past and be such a mysogynist, and your dragging the past around with you now.
Your parents by the sound of it did a lousy job bringing you up, so dont blame yourself.

I am... and I tend to regret that a lot.
Yes, my parents did a lousy job (you have no idea just HOW lousy), and as a result I, the child, suffered a lot more than I potentially would have through any abortion. And I do blame my parents for not having made a sensible decision but rather having decided that, since abortion is wrong, they had to bring me to the world.
And since children grow up more balanced with both mother and father, my dear father got to abuse me for 15 years. That's how long it took my mother to realise that maybe that assumption can't be absolute and that maybe, just maybe, children can be better off without a father.

No, but it does mean that they're far more rational.

Only because their pc, which is what you adher your life by, and way of thinking.
To me their anything but rational.

I am... and I tend to regret that a lot.
Yes, my parents did a lousy job (you have no idea just HOW lousy), and as a result I, the child, suffered a lot more than I potentially would have through any abortion. And I do blame my parents for not having made a sensible decision but rather having decided that, since abortion is wrong, they had to bring me to the world.
And since children grow up more balanced with both mother and father, my dear father got to abuse me for 15 years. That's how long it took my mother to realise that maybe that assumption can't be absolute and that maybe, just maybe, children can be better off without a father.

Well of course, I wouldnt even call a man like that a father to begin with.

Only because their pc, which is what you adher your life by, and way of thinking.
To me their anything but rational.
Actually, a number of my views are far from being pc, but only because I acknowledge the differences between men & women, rather than trying to claim those differences don't exist.
I have well reasoned, justified explanations for why I believe what I believe. That makes my views rational, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. So far you haven't given me any indication that your views are remotely rational.

Well of course, I wouldnt even call a man like that a father to begin with.
No, you wouldn't. Judging from your attitudes, you'd probably call him a hero instead.

Women like what?Women that get abortions because their contraception failed/wasn't implemented. I don't think it was that hard to figure out what I was hinting at.

Well your painting a very bleak picture here, and your assuming that the majority of women have abortions because their lives are messed up, when the majority have them because they didnt take the proper precautions, or the proper precautions failed.

Your contradicting yourself now!

Well of course, I wouldnt even call a man like that a father to begin with.Then I can understand where your silly statistics on fathers being less abusive than mothers comes from. If you just strike all the abusers from the equation... No matter what a father does, he is a father. Behavior only has something to do with it once.

"I'll provide mine when you provide sources saying most abortions are as a result of messed up, psychologically screwed up kids, that are dirt poor. "

No one said that???

Well get help about that, if you continue the cycle of hatred on, you are just making what he did to you even worse.
Your father by the sound of it, should never have been one to begin with.

I love it when right-wingers suddenly say something that totally contradicts their point in favour of the opposition.

You are absolutely correct, her father shouldn't have been one. So you would suggest what exactly? When a man or a woman who is unsuitable parent material finds themself faced with an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy? If you agree that they shouldn't be a parent you clearly approve of abortion.

I can say this because it is abundantly clear that the likelihood of the child living a better life if put up for adoption than if kept by lousy parents is dubious at best.

You say that your morals are right and everyone "pc" is wrong. Has it ever occured to you that the "pc" view has become that way because it is morally superior to the archaic traditions of your culture? It stands for Political Correctness by the way. I happen to think that morals need to stand up to logical, factual argument if they are to be considered appropriate for adoption by a person or society.

Your morals seem to include treating women and children in a reprehensible manner, forcing them into lives they didn't choose, being violent towards children and removing rights from women to live as individuals. I would like you to provide a formal, valid argument for this positition. I asked Bluestrips2 to do this and he ran away in fear and shame because he knew it was impossible. I wonder what your response will be?

Your morals seem to include treating women and children in a reprehensible manner, forcing them into lives they didn't choose, being violent towards children and removing rights from women to live as individuals. I would like you to provide a formal, valid argument for this positition. I asked Bluestrips2 to do this and he ran away in fear and shame because he knew it was impossible. I wonder what your response will be?

Its pointless, people like them only think things should be like that because they feel that "everything was ok" in some mythical time when values where actually what they say values should be.

Bruce Dawe: "The Wholly Innocent"

I never walked abroad in air
I never saw the sky
Nor knew the sovereign touch of care
Nor looked into an eye

I never chose, nor gave consent
Nor voted on my fate
Unseen, I came, unseen I went
Too early and too late

This was my life-line trust
As absolute as blood
Now down in the bucket thrust
Anonymous as mud

Oh you within whose God-like power
Lies to so decide
Remember me when, some late hour
Talks turn to genocide

For I was part of that doomed race
Whose death-cell was the womb
But who can clear a bloody space
And call it living room

I never had a name or cried
That central cry "I am"
But in a world-wide shambles died
Defenceless as a lamb

And many called it self-defence
And many ZPG
And all was done at my expense
At the total cost of me

Remember me next time you
Rejoice at sun or star
I would have loved to see them too
I never got that far

-------------------------------------

What do you think?



What do I think?

Will it's a poem of someones feeling and emotions, It good in the sense of poems.

On abortions that's another story. My compliant is that there's alot of women or teenage girls / men or teenage boys out there that think I can walk away from her and let her deal with it or she gets pregnant I can abort it. That's not happening in my world. It's murder point blank. Now if the women or teenage girl / men or teenage boys is a drug user (heavy drugs that affect the unborn child,cocaine,crack,heroin etc.) then that child should be aborted. Becuase this world is tough enough for just that average person. What would it be for a child born into this world with an addiction that it do not ask for. Unbearable.
Now if that women or teenage girl / men or teenage boys is just unfit to have a child then they should be put up for adoption. There's alot of people out there that can not have children that want children. Now that's out of the way here's another . The two that got together and had unpretected sex and the women or teenage girl / men or teenage boy got pregnant then they should take responseablity And be an adult for there adult decisions. The Men or the teenage boy needs to stand up and take his place as a father or an adult with responseablity and take care for this child that he help make. Same goes for the women or teenage girl. There's help out there for everyone. You just have to take responseablity for your actions. First off there's sex eductions and marriage. Live your life before you take a responseablity your not ready for.

*shrugs* here's another poem jsut coz i can and its not about abortion but much cooler



the cut, fresh and deep
The blood, so thick and sweet.
A fissure flowing swift.
ecstacy bleeding from the rift,
unto me comes.
Your lovely sweet lips
sucking my life into your kiss,
no remorse, no pain
drink of me, my love,
again and again.

Now if that women or teenage girl is just unfit to have a child then they should be put up for adoption. There's alot of people out there that can not have children that want children. Now that's is out of the way here's another . The two that got together and had unpretected sex and the women or teenage girl / Man or teenage boy got pregnant then they should take responseablity And be an adult for there adult decisions. The Man or the teenage boy needs to stand up and take his place as a father or an adult with responseablity and take care for this child that he help make. Same goes for the women or teenage girl. There's help out there for everyone. You just have to take responseablity for your actions.
Yes, adoption is an alternative option, but the mother still has to carry the child to term herself, which she may not be in a suitable position to do.
If a couple have unprotected sex, well, they get what they deserve. They knew the risks, they continued anyway, they should face the consequences.

I'd be interested to hear your views about pregnancy resulting from failed contraception, or rape.

Might I also add that it's nice to finally have a pro-life position that doesn't consist solely of insulting those who think otherwise, and claiming that it's "sick".

What do I think?

Will it's a poem of someones feeling and emotions, It good in the sense of poems.

On abortions that's another story. My compliant is that there's alot of women or teenage girls and men or teenage boys out there that think I can walk away from her and let her deal with it or she gets pregnant I can abort it. That's not happening in my world. It's murder point blank. Now if the women or teenage girl is a drug user (heavy drugs that affect the unborn child,cocaine,crack,heroin etc.) then that child should be aborted. Becuase this world is tough enough for just that average person. What would be for a child born into this world with an addiction that it do not ask for. Unbearable.
Now if that women or teenage girl is just unfit to have a child then they should be put up for adoption. There's alot of people out there that can not have children that want children. Now that's is out of the way here's another . The two that got together and had unpretected sex and the women or teenage girl / Man or teenage boy got pregnant then they should take responseablity And be an adult for there adult decisions. The Man or the teenage boy needs to stand up and take his place as a father or an adult with responseablity and take care for this child that he help make. Same goes for the women or teenage girl. There's help out there for everyone. You just have to take responseablity for your actions.

I found this post a bit hard to follow. I take it English is not your first language? Well done for trying though.

It's amazing how many people say adoption is the answer. I'm going to go and find some statistics in a minute.

Why do you say that it is murder? This is the pressing point in the discussion, no pro-life poster has yet to put forward a non-religious argument for this. I maintain that aborting an embryo before there is a nervous system, before it can exist outside the whomb is no different than removing a limb or tooth, or cutting one's hair. I'm not denying that it can be traumatic for the woman (see my earlier posts), of course it can be and it is not a decision to be made lightly, but I sincerely see no scientific difference.

Live your life before you take a responseablity your not ready for.

Thank you. I agree whole heartedly :-)

Yes, adoption is an alternative option, but the mother still has to carry the child to term herself, which she may not be in a suitable position to do.
If a couple have unprotected sex, well, they get what they deserve. They knew the risks, they continued anyway, they should face the consequences.

I'd be interested to hear your views about pregnancy resulting from failed contraception, or rape.

Might I also add that it's nice to finally have a pro-life position that doesn't consist solely of insulting those who think otherwise, and claiming that it's "sick".


as a child of adoption, i am wholeheartedly against the entire process, as are most other in my situation to which i have spoke. if you weren't adopted then it's impossible to explain how it affects you. but for one i'd much rather be dead then adopted

as a child of adoption, i am wholeheartedly against the entire process, as are most other in my situation to which i have spoke. if you weren't adopted then it's impossible to explain how it affects you. but for one i'd much rather be dead then adopted

Seriously?? you would rather be dead than adopted??? I can't say as an adopted person myself I feel like that in any way, but then I guess I am very lucky to have great adopted parents and regualr contact (since 18) with my BM.

as a child of adoption, i am wholeheartedly against the entire process, as are most other in my situation to which i have spoke. if you weren't adopted then it's impossible to explain how it affects you. but for one i'd much rather be dead then adopted
Well, I am sorry that you feel that way. I can only assume that you feel this way due to feelings of rejection and the like, rather than because you were unhappy with your adopted parents. From what I can tell, when and how a child is told that they are adopted can have a huge impact on their reaction to it. Also there's the question of whether to trace the biological parents, and how receptive they would be to you if you did trace them.

It's certainly not anything that's easy to deal with, or that I have any experience with.

Abortion is infanticide; and I have heard of no-one condoning the latter in the name of women's rights, because of rape/incest, or economical reasons.

Just about all the "pro-choice" arguments lay their foundations on an idea that the baby in the womb isn't actually human, because it's really really really small, and doesn't look like a human yet. But DNA proves that, not only is it fully human, it is also absolutely unique (except for identicle twins). It is not part of someone else's body, any more than the food in our stomachs is. It is simply connected to the mother's body and is absolutely reliant on the blood coming through the umbilical cord, until birth; in much the same way that a young child relies on its parents to be cared for.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, and choosing the partner, is choice, usually. Also bear in mind that the child did not choose to be there, and remains absolutely innocent, and should not be put to death because it would be more "conveniant" for the parents, or indeed, for the crimes of his/her father. Yet again, it would not be condoned if the child had been born, and it is fully human.

Heather.

infanticide: The killing of infants.

infant : a very young child (birth to 1 year)

Abortion is infanticide; and I have heard of no-one condoning the latter in the name of women's rights, because of rape/incest, or economical reasons.

Just about all the "pro-choice" arguments lay their foundations on an idea that the baby in the womb isn't actually human, because it's really really really small, and doesn't look like a human yet. But DNA proves that, not only is it fully human, it is also absolutely unique (except for identicle twins). It is not part of someone else's body, any more than the food in our stomachs is. It is simply connected to the mother's body and is absolutely reliant on the blood coming through the umbilical cord, until birth; in much the same way that a young child relies on its parents to be cared for.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, and choosing the partner, is choice, usually. Also bear in mind that the child did not choose to be there, and remains absolutely innocent, and should not be put to death because it would be more "conveniant" for the parents, or indeed, for the crimes of his/her father. Yet again, it would not be condoned if the child had been born, and it is fully human.

Heather.

/sigh

Have you bothered reading the thread ?

Thing is: You anti-abortion people want to force women to donate use of their body against their will for 9 months. No other surcomstance can force this. For example: i can remvoe your kidneys with a rusty hatchet, but after that there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER in which i can be forced to donate my kidneys to you (assuming our bodytypes match up for a transplant)

Seriously?? you would rather be dead than adopted??? I can't say as an adopted person myself I feel like that in any way, but then I guess I am very lucky to have great adopted parents and regualr contact (since 18) with my BM.



i think i misspoke before, i have no wish to die. You are very lucky in fact to have contact with your birth mother, and i assume you didnt have the orphanage/foster lifestyle most of us get. What my meaning was was that instead of having to face that, death may not be such a bad choice. many foster parents have.... problems, i assume i was special in that my 3 foster families were.....dysfunctional to say the least. if faced with goign through that again or death, i would chose death not that....

i am happy that you know your BM, mine died in childbirth and my da arranged for me to be adopted, after and killed himself with me in his lap.... i guess that would forshadow dire events later on... but all the same i wish i was able to contact them i feel it wouldnt be so bad if i knew them

Well, I am sorry that you feel that way. I can only assume that you feel this way due to feelings of rejection and the like, rather than because you were unhappy with your adopted parents. From what I can tell, when and how a child is told that they are adopted can have a huge impact on their reaction to it. Also there's the question of whether to trace the biological parents, and how receptive they would be to you if you did trace them.

It's certainly not anything that's easy to deal with, or that I have any experience with.


rejection wasnt in it..... there are ...other factors

i think i misspoke before, i have no wish to die. You are very lucky in fact to have contact with your birth mother, and i assume you didnt have the orphanage/foster lifestyle most of us get. What my meaning was was that instead of having to face that, death may not be such a bad choice. many foster parents have.... problems, i assume i was special in that my 3 foster families were.....dysfunctional to say the least. if faced with goign through that again or death, i would chose death not that....

i am happy that you know your BM, mine died in childbirth and my da arranged for me to be adopted, after and killed himself with me in his lap.... i guess that would forshadow dire events later on... but all the same i wish i was able to contact them i feel it wouldnt be so bad if i knew them

:fluffle: I'm sorry to hear of your past, and I totally understand your opinion now. I was never in Foster home as I was adopted at about 3 - 6 months. :fluffle:

:fluffle: I'm sorry to hear of your past, and I totally understand your opinion now. I was never in Foster home as I was adopted at about 3 - 6 months. :fluffle:

*hug* be glad you're a lucky one... ty :fluffle:

Abortion is infanticide; and I have heard of no-one condoning the latter in the name of women's rights, because of rape/incest, or economical reasons.

Just about all the "pro-choice" arguments lay their foundations on an idea that the baby in the womb isn't actually human, because it's really really really small, and doesn't look like a human yet. But DNA proves that, not only is it fully human, it is also absolutely unique (except for identicle twins). It is not part of someone else's body, any more than the food in our stomachs is. It is simply connected to the mother's body and is absolutely reliant on the blood coming through the umbilical cord, until birth; in much the same way that a young child relies on its parents to be cared for.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, and choosing the partner, is choice, usually. Also bear in mind that the child did not choose to be there, and remains absolutely innocent, and should not be put to death because it would be more "conveniant" for the parents, or indeed, for the crimes of his/her father. Yet again, it would not be condoned if the child had been born, and it is fully human.

Heather.

Obviously you haven't read the thread, so I won't berate you for your comments. I will just say that no one here has said that an embryo isn't human. No one at all has even hinted at that.

I base my arguments on the fact that the woman has rights as an individual and that society is complex and not black and white as anti-abortionists claim. It happens that I can see merit in the position that the embryo is, until a certain age (20-24 weeks) unable to survive outside the womb and therefore not an individual person. Emphasis on person. I am not saying it isn't human.

If the world were perfect we would have no need for abortion. None at all. I don't support it needlessly. But we do not have a perfect world, we have one far from perfect and I think it is totally irresponsible to criminalise something that is necessary in our imperfect world. We won't make the world a better place by forcing women to seek out illegal abortions (which they do in countries where abortion is illegal and did in those where it hasn't always been legal), by forcing people to be parents against their will, by forcing women to sacrifice their individuality against their will and forcing children to grow up unwnated. If you can prove to me that the world would be better that way, then by all means do.

Uh, how about a line-break in there somewhere, Mal? you're wrecking the formatting on the page and all.
i'm A naughty little devil aren't I?

Abortion is infanticide; and I have heard of no-one condoning the latter in the name of women's rights, because of rape/incest, or economical reasons.

Just about all the "pro-choice" arguments lay their foundations on an idea that the baby in the womb isn't actually human, because it's really really really small, and doesn't look like a human yet. But DNA proves that, not only is it fully human, it is also absolutely unique (except for identicle twins). It is not part of someone else's body, any more than the food in our stomachs is. It is simply connected to the mother's body and is absolutely reliant on the blood coming through the umbilical cord, until birth; in much the same way that a young child relies on its parents to be cared for.

Engaging in sexual intercourse, and choosing the partner, is choice, usually. Also bear in mind that the child did not choose to be there, and remains absolutely innocent, and should not be put to death because it would be more "conveniant" for the parents, or indeed, for the crimes of his/her father. Yet again, it would not be condoned if the child had been born, and it is fully human.

Heather.


you're silly, it would be fetiside

-------------------------------------

What do you think?

i think its a poem.....i dont like poetry... >.><.<

Obviously you haven't read the thread, so I won't berate you for your comments. I will just say that no one here has said that an embryo isn't human. No one at all has even hinted at that.

I base my arguments on the fact that the woman has rights as an individual and that society is complex and not black and white as anti-abortionists claim. It happens that I can see merit in the position that the embryo is, until a certain age (20-24 weeks) unable to survive outside the womb and therefore not an individual person. Emphasis on person. I am not saying it isn't human.

If the world were perfect we would have no need for abortion. None at all. I don't support it needlessly. But we do not have a perfect world, we have one far from perfect and I think it is totally irresponsible to criminalise something that is necessary in our imperfect world. We won't make the world a better place by forcing women to seek out illegal abortions (which they do in countries where abortion is illegal and did in those where it hasn't always been legal), by forcing people to be parents against their will, by forcing women to sacrifice their individuality against their will and forcing children to grow up unwnated. If you can prove to me that the world would be better that way, then by all means do.

I couldn't have said it better myself...

The argument is that women have the right to do what they want with their body. A vast majority of them are pregnant because they have already exercised that right. An abortion is the ending of a human life (as supported by DNA analysis). All pro-choice arguments fail to address this fact but prefer to call the baby a "fetus" or "lump of inanimate flesh". Recently, National Geographic released a film on 4D ultrasound. 4D because it is capable of displaying movement. The detail is almost as good as a b/w photo. In NG's documentary, a 4D ultrasound of a 7 week "fetus" was shown. The "fetus", though tiny, displayed fully recognizable human features, distinguishable head, torso, arms, legs, hands, feet, etc. It also was very active and was waving its arms and kicking. 7 weeks!!! Some argue that a "fetus" at this stage of development does not yet have a fully functional nervous system and has no sensation of pain. With this logic, it is acceptable to "abort" people with spinal cord injuries.

How, as a society, can we condone the murder of our children in the name of womens' rights?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0225_050225_tv_ultrasound.html

We condone murder of a criminal in the name of victim's rights...

/sigh

Have you bothered reading the thread ?

Thing is: You anti-abortion people want to force women to donate use of their body against their will for 9 months. No other surcomstance can force this. For example: i can remvoe your kidneys with a rusty hatchet, but after that there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER in which i can be forced to donate my kidneys to you (assuming our bodytypes match up for a transplant)

Against their will?

You can't get pregnant from sitting around. You have to do something to get pregnant, take a risk. If you take that risk, you are submitting to the fact that you might get pregnant. Taking responsibility for this fact is the first step to go back to a better society. I am talking about in America. I really don't know the ins and outs of societys in other states, and I don't really care that much.

Removing responsibility for actions and PC are leading to the eventual downfall of America.

I couldn't have said it better myself...If you tried hard enough, I bet you could! :p

Against their will?

You can't get pregnant from sitting around. You have to do something to get pregnant, take a risk. If you take that risk, you are submitting to the fact that you might get pregnant. Taking responsibility for this fact is the first step to go back to a better society. I am talking about in America. I really don't know the ins and outs of societys in other states, and I don't really care that much.

Removing responsibility for actions and PC are leading to the eventual downfall of America.Apart from the fact that you don't really have to do anything to get raped, you raise a good point. In case you haven't noticed, though, men don't need to take any responsibility for pregnancy and yet it's mainly men voicing their opinions on the issue.

If you tried hard enough, I bet you could! :p

I'll just take that as a compliment, shall I? ;)

Thing is...feti arent exactly...sentient. So they dont really desire, or even know of, or for that matter are even the slightest bit aware of existence. Its far more deplorable for a grown adult to be killed in war, I feel. Besides, and I hope noone flips out at me for my flash of realism, but, the world is already overpopulated and in other parts of the world, infant mortality is extremely high. Instead of spending all our time trying to save unborn babies, we could try to save the living ones.

Thing is...feti arent exactly...sentient. So they dont really desire, or even know of, or for that matter are even the slightest bit aware of existence. Its far more deplorable for a grown adult to be killed in war, I feel. Besides, and I hope noone flips out at me for my flash of realism, but, the world is already overpopulated and in other parts of the world, infant mortality is extremely high. Instead of spending all our time trying to save unborn babies, we could try to save the living ones.

That's a very valid point. In fact, you normally don't see anti-abortionists going around and adopting unwanted children in their own country, let alone the third world.
Instead, you tend to get statements from them that beating children is ok and that women's rights ruin western society. Sometimes I get the feeling that their aim isn't really happy, healthy and well-cared for children but a general popualation that's as miserable as they are. As was said before, they seem to care about the rights of children only as long as they are in somebody else's body and not a nuisance to themselves.

...rotfl

I'll just take that as a compliment, shall I? ;)
You better... :D

i was sitting all alone minding my own business
til that man came along and made me his business
he bound my arms and drug me torwards this cruel and painful place
only then did i no wut he was going to do
he spread my legs and took of his closed wut was i to do
and 3months later i find that i am now pregnant with him
should i keep it could i take it to raise a little him



Reasons why i'm pro choice

Reasons why i'm pro choice
Good one.

In your opinion, you have yet to present any facts to back this up.




Yes, creating a life is an option, as is preventing creating a life. Well said.



Kids can't live on love alone. Sorry, but they seriously don't get physical nourishment just from being loved. They also don't magically grow clothes over their bodies just from being loved.

And have you ever been raped or know anyone who has who would discuss it with you? You are saying women who are raped and left pregnant should carry the child to term then put it up for adoption. As someone who has experienced such a thing (not the pregnancy bit) I can tell you that you are making one hell of a big decision for her. Do you have any idea what it would be like to watch your belly grow, to get morning sickness and have to watch and feel this continuing proof of the utter violation that is rape? You can't understand it, because you've never experienced it. I would never wish that upon any woman, to have to carry the result of that act of hate inside for nine months. I'm sorry but you are a bad person for suggesting that.

You say that someone who prioritises their own life over another is sick and lacking morals, ok. Have you read anything I've said? I am a moral person, it is simply that my morals reach beyond your narrow view. I see the world as a large place filled with individuals, each with equal rights and see that there is no black and white in these decisions. I have compassion for ALL people, not just unwanted embyos.

As for torturing an embryo being sick? Hmm, something that cannot feel pain cannot endure torture. That is just the way it is.



Please support this argument with substantiated evidence. Thank you.

And you can't kill something that isn't an individual life form. Would you consider a pulled tooth to be an act of murder? No. I didn't think so :-)

I also take your post to be declining my offer to enter into a formal debate. You consistently use emotive and unsubstantiated statements. Apparently you realise that they wouldn't stand up against my formal arguments. There are actually philosophers out there who have pro-life arguments that hold, so it's not that it's impossible. It is just that your opinion is not based on any facts and you know this.


FACTS to proove that its sick LOL I dont need them I allready know, your arguments are fraud - the same old ****.

Im not even gonna debate it with you because your SICK.

My friend done it so it's right -- briliiant pure brilliant.

Evidence = Proof, YOU CANT PROOVE ITS RIGHT but killing is wrong.

Im not even going to read what your sick mind replies with, STOP BEING SICK and start caring for living things !!!

EGO TRIPPED OUT WOMEN lOOOOOl :D

We just wont get involved with these kind of women, although it is hard to judge who would kill :headbang:

The poem said it all read it and weep for the dead babies, 'no they are not babies' Just another way to get back at the guy who doesnt want to be with you. Too many women do this just as a dig back at the guy- thats why it will be stopped lol - SICK pure SICK My friend was talking about when a party has a stand against abortion HE WILL BE VOTED IN, and then you lose the ego trip control you think you have on killing unborn kids !!

ITS CLASS TO FEEL THIS GOOD :)

Bluestrips2']FACTS to proove that its sick LOL I dont need them I allready know, your arguments are fraud - the same old ****.

Im not even gonna debate it with you because your SICK.

My friend done it so it's right -- briliiant pure brilliant.

Evidence = Proof, YOU CANT PROOVE ITS RIGHT but killing is wrong.

Im not even going to read what your sick mind replies with, STOP BEING SICK and start caring for living things !!!

EGO TRIPPED OUT WOMEN lOOOOOl :D

We just wont get involved with these kind of women, although it is hard to judge who would kill :headbang:

The poem said it all read it and weep for the dead babies, 'no they are not babies' Just another way to get back at the guy who doesnt want to be with you. Too many women do this just as a dig back at the guy- thats why it will be stopped lol - SICK pure SICK My friend was talking about when a party has a stand against abortion HE WILL BE VOTED IN, and then you lose the ego trip control you think you have on killing unborn kids !!

ITS CLASS TO FEEL THIS GOOD :)I'm having trouble trying to figure out what you wrote because it's nearly unintelligible. Please try and phrase it in something we can UNDERSTAND if you're actually interested in debate.

Bluestrips2']...

Wow... Whatever that is you're on, it can't be legal...

Wow... Whatever that is you're on, it can't be legal...You'd be AMAZED at what you can get prescribed...

I'm having trouble trying to figure out what you wrote because it's nearly unintelligible. Please try and phrase it in something we can UNDERSTAND if you're actually interested in debate.


GOOD Because I don't really care to be honest, having a debate about this is pointless - ITS SICK thats my view

And it is full of responses like this, digging at another post and not any points in the other posts - all through the topic, ignorant bitchy ego losing bunny boilers !

Some of the posts defending are just pulling things out of a hat - "we cant buy them clothes" - benefits are there to help - MILLIONS OF PEOPLE MANAGE IT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT A DEGENRATE SICKO !! Thats the bottom line !!

TRY ADOPTION INSTEAD OF KILLING, YOU CLAIM THE KID WILL HAVE A CRAP LIFE - HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT ??

YOU DONT ITS ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR BEING VERY IRRESPONSIBLE !!

TRY BEING REAL FOR ONCE

Apart from the fact that you don't really have to do anything to get raped, you raise a good point. In case you haven't noticed, though, men don't need to take any responsibility for pregnancy and yet it's mainly men voicing their opinions on the issue.

Child support ? And rape is really a different subject. How many % of abortions are rapes ? Very little. I've already posted stats in this thread. It is really pointless to bring that up, because most people agree that rape victims are a special case.

Bluestrips2']<snip>You know, the people you've been calling "bitchy" and "whiney" are the ones that have been providing examples just how fun getting adopted can be. Maybe you should do a bit more reading and less ranting.

Child support ? And rape is really a different subject. How many % of abortions are rapes ? Very little. I've already posted stats in this thread. It is really pointless to bring that up, because most people agree that rape victims are a special case.Child support? Real easy to ditch too. My dad doesn't pay everything he should and I don't even hate him for it (I love my dad :D) but aside from that, if you talk about women having a choice and fail to mention rape being a special case, you risk being flung into the corner with the people that DON'T regard rape as a special case. Don't take that opinion for granted; I've learned not to.

In the region that my nation is named after, the Afghan side of Badakhshan, more than 25% of children die before the age of 5, mostly to easily preventable diseases. I can't even believe something like abortion is even an issue... it's more like a joke. Lucky for Christians they have no taste in art so they can't perceive what absolute shit this poem is. I'm pro-life by the way, but anti-legislation.

Child support ? And rape is really a different subject. How many % of abortions are rapes ? Very little. I've already posted stats in this thread. It is really pointless to bring that up, because most people agree that rape victims are a special case.

So, to get that straight, you're saying that abortion is murder, but if the woman wasraped, it's ok? Istn't that a bit of a double standard?

Child support? Real easy to ditch too. My dad doesn't pay everything he should and I don't even hate him for it (I love my dad :D) but aside from that, if you talk about women having a choice and fail to mention rape being a special case, you risk being flung into the corner with the people that DON'T regard rape as a special case. Don't take that opinion for granted; I've learned not to.

So you let women have 6-7 abortions for convenience (that they are not paying for, btw) based on the small percentage that aren't for convenience ?

I think that the poem is very touching. My sister also wrote a poem on abortion. I'll try and get her to post it.

For all you people who think that abortion is ok because it controls the population I have a question for you. Aren't you glad that you're mother didn't think that way when she was pregnant with you? Do you realize that the only ones who think abortion is legal are never the ones who are being killed?
Those who say that abortion is ok because it controls the population should think about this. Why do you think that you are worth being alive? If someone said "we have to kill you because it will benifit the population" would you allow yourself to be killed?
Think about that the next time you say abortion is good because it helps keep the population down.

So, to get that straight, you're saying that abortion is murder, but if the woman wasraped, it's ok? Istn't that a bit of a double standard?

No, i never said it was murder, if you look through my posts, kthx, I said it was wrong. And it still isn't ok, but it won't ever be legislated out, because of the vocal minority. So to compromise, you let this happen.

Think about that the next time you say abortion is good because it helps keep the population down.

It's not a valid argument - population in developed countries is not growing, and will only slow more when the baby boomers die.

I think that the poem is very touching. My sister also wrote a poem on abortion. I'll try and get her to post it.

For all you people who think that abortion is ok because it controls the population I have a question for you. Aren't you glad that you're mother didn't think that way when she was pregnant with you? Do you realize that the only ones who think abortion is legal are never the ones who are being killed?
Those who say that abortion is ok because it controls the population should think about this. Why do you think that you are worth being alive? If someone said "we have to kill you because it will benifit the population" would you allow yourself to be killed?
Think about that the next time you say abortion is good because it helps keep the population down.

I'm not going into detail again, read my previous posts if you want to. Yes, I would have been a lot happier if my mother had acted responsibly and aborted me.

So you let women have 6-7 abortions for convenience (that they are not paying for, btw) based on the small percentage that aren't for convenience ?I wasn't basing my arguement for abortions on the fact that women might have been raped. I was just trying to tell you that you should be careful with statements like "women always have a choice". I think abortion is necessary when the potential mother won't be a good mother, which is often the case if she wants an abortion for convenience. I wonder how many people that opt for adoption actually adopt children in order to spare them the misery of an orphanage.

On a side note, I'd prefer that she didn't, but it beats having someone find a dead baby in a trash can, her dying because she used a coathanger, or the child growing up in a dysfunctional family or orphanage.

Think about that the next time you say abortion is good because it helps keep the population down.I'm not for allowing abortion because of the population.

You know, the people you've been calling "bitchy" and "whiney" are the ones that have been providing examples just how fun getting adopted can be. Maybe you should do a bit more reading and less ranting.


Yeah better than death, I don't really care -

I know loads of adopted kids and they have brilliant lives so it doesnt matter !

Another excuse to cover up what has been done

Revealed: how an abortion puts the next baby at risk

Having an abortion almost doubles a woman's risk of giving birth dangerously early in a later pregnancy, according to research that will provoke fresh debate over the most controversial of all medical procedures.

A French study of 2,837 births - the first to investigate the link between terminations and extremely premature births - found that mothers who had previously had an abortion were 1.7 times more likely to give birth to a baby at less than 28 weeks' gestation. Many babies born this early die soon after birth, and a large number who survive suffer serious disability.

More here (http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/15/nabort15.xml)

or here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=abortion+premature+births&meta=)

Revealed: how an abortion puts the next baby at risk

Having an abortion almost doubles a woman's risk of giving birth dangerously early in a later pregnancy, according to research that will provoke fresh debate over the most controversial of all medical procedures.

A French study of 2,837 births - the first to investigate the link between terminations and extremely premature births - found that mothers who had previously had an abortion were 1.7 times more likely to give birth to a baby at less than 28 weeks' gestation. Many babies born this early die soon after birth, and a large number who survive suffer serious disability.

More here (http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/15/nabort15.xml)

or here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=abortion+premature+births&meta=)


Blooody hell, This is even SICKER than I thought :headbang:

Maybe mother natures revenge !!

If she doesn't want to carry, she shouldn't have sex. Period.

Flawed logic, I'm afraid.... unless you are ALSO arguing that other 'possible results' of activities are somehow 'deserved' by engaging in actions.

Such as:

If she doesn't want to burn to death in a horrible automobile accident, she shouldn't drive...

or:

If she doesn't want to choke to death, she shouldn't eat.

Or is this a unique case of hypocrisy?

Revealed: how an abortion puts the next baby at risk

Having an abortion almost doubles a woman's risk of giving birth dangerously early in a later pregnancy, according to research that will provoke fresh debate over the most controversial of all medical procedures.

A French study of 2,837 births - the first to investigate the link between terminations and extremely premature births - found that mothers who had previously had an abortion were 1.7 times more likely to give birth to a baby at less than 28 weeks' gestation. Many babies born this early die soon after birth, and a large number who survive suffer serious disability.

More here (http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/15/nabort15.xml)

or here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=abortion+premature+births&meta=)

On the other hand, it hasn;t been mentioned that abortion puts the mother at less risk than childbirth:


Death from abortion is extremely rare. The risk of death from childbirth is 11 times greater than the risk of death from an abortion up to 20 weeks of pregnancy. After 20 weeks, the risk of death from an abortion is about the same as the risk of death from childbirth.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/pub-abortion-surgical.xml

Yeah OK we put the fetus in there, we somehow shot a fetus into the womans womb, seed, sperm Im talking about here, without it women are nothing, as are men.


Curiously simplistic viewpoint, this... you are in effect stating that an impotent or sterile person serves absolutely NO purpose in life.

Curious viewpoint, I wonder if you honestly believe it? Would you happily sacrifice your own life (as a drain on resources), if you became (or were found to be) sterile?

I doubt it.

Regarding your assertions about 'sperm'... you are aware that most sperm do NOTHING in the creation of a foetus, right? They are just flotsam.

It always perturbs me when people deify ejaculation...


They are vessels and not mere ones at that, the carrying and birth of a child is the most fantastic thing a woman can do, it dwarfs anything men can fully create.
The woman can say no to the snake.

A woman has the CAPACITY to carry a child. That doesn't mean she should, or that it is the 'best thing she can do'.

Again, what about those who are barren?

What about those who have made the advances that make it possible for many of us to even be ALIVE today? Or that have enriched our culture?

What about those who have cared about ALL mankind, not just the issue of their own bodies?

You think that Mother Teresa served no purpose?

I think this is a good article on the topic
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/abortion.html

It coveres it thouroughly

We plan, mere animals rut.
If women want to put child bearing off to a later age when they wont produce as well, and the child won't benefit from healthier younger woman genes, then these women should be left behind, see how great their career is in forty years time when their all alone.

Are you repeating everything you say from some strange website? Do you ever watch animal reproduction? Animals might not seem to do the 'wining and dining' routine to the same extent that many humans do - but there is often MUCH more to the mating of animals than bestial rutting.

You might want to think about Weaver Birds, for example...

Oh - and, while I think about it... we humans plan... then we rut.

(I do not mean to insult you, if you are not yet of 'rutting' age).

lol explain how women can produce kids without men, some mutation perhaps?


Well, you said you know some biology, so consider the terms "cloning" and "parthenogenesis".


Yes, but condoms have led to a great loss of morality.

Or, on the other hand, rather than our human NEED for the sexual act resulting in dozens of children, many of whom died of mistreatment, sickness, poor diet, etc...

Now, that SAME NEED for the sexual act can now be ameliorated.

Humans are not noticable any more OR less moral today, than they were one hundred, one thousand, or ten thousand years ago.

We just have better options, now.

Less murder.


Abortion isn't murder.

1) Abortion isn't illegal, and murder is defined as ILLEGAL taking of human life...

and:

2) While there is no dispute that an embryo is made of the same basic 'stuff' as us, opinions differ on where a 'Human Life' starts. Most agree that BIRTH is a little late, and many agree that (since fully one third of concepta fail to implant) conception is a little early. A large number of people seem to find it fair to term the foetus a 'Human Life' at the point at which coherent brain activity can commence... which is about 20-ish weeks, so WELL after voluntary abortions are 'allowed'.

Thus - 'Not Illegal' + 'Not Human Life' = Not Murder.

Bringing back a good old healthy dose of morality into western society, will work alot better than any state funded sex education program.

See the amount of teen pregnancies, whats going wrong after thirty plus years of sex education? The removal of the father as a figure of authority in the west has caused alot of this.

Where's your evidence?

As far as I can see, there have ALWAYS been teen pregnancies. Hell, the Bible story of Jesus' birth is about a teen-pregnancy. (And, artificial insemination, and rape... if you think about it).

There is nothing 'moral' about the 'good old... morality' you seem to yearn for.