NationStates Jolt Archive

You'll bet your eternal future on the whole thing being nothing but an invented myth?
But wouldn't a muslim or hindu say the same about adherence to their faiths?

But wouldn't a muslim or hindu say the same about adherence to their faiths?
Because Muslims and Hindus know what myth is? (Too much to hope for, I fear.)

As Docteur Moreau said, one of the sects is the Holy Catholic Church. I would say it's the biggest christian church there is, so its creeds matter in this discussion.

Going by a biblical stand point the Catholic church is wrong!

As paul said It is by grace you have been saved not by works so that no one can boast.

Thanks for the input everyone. Definetely, we cannot get an answer everyone will agree on, but what we can have is a few theories. Two in particular, with people siding with one or the other, despite their flaws which we sometimes disregard or look around.

1. There IS a God, and he knows all and sees all and created all, and it is by his grace that you can go to heaven and his grace alone. After all, why would God not have say over those who enter his created land of ascension? He is above and we are below. The bible is a true recording of all these things.

There are a number of problems with such a scenario. God is supposed to be infinite, whereas we are finite. Infinite is not something the human mind can grasp and understand at all. Thus God being personified and given human emotions in recordings, as well as communicating directly to us is a paradox, for in no way can anything ungodlike ever understand or relate to something simply out of the scope of understanding. IT does not seem fitting that God would even create us and us alone as real intelligent life in the universe, the rest of it being devoid of anything, and us simply slaves of his divine will. He does not need us, so why create us? And to think that there is a reason is in itself false because God creates not out of reason but out of something we cannot fathom. We know not how or why and never will. Impossible,

2. The second thoery is that there is no God. The universe was created out of energy clashing with itself ande xpanding and differentiating- and through the slightest of chances, one in a google so to speak, life was created, and unlikely still over billions of years it became intelligent and essentially human as we know it. The planets and stars were tied together in certain orbits and rotations and the universe kept expanding.

The problems possible here are numerous too. To think we are here on chance is almost unbelieveable. That everything is through accident. That the divine ratio, phi is a coincidence of nature that transgresses all laws of our udnerstanding, that ghosts and everytihng supernatural and anything spiritual is unsubstantiated hallucination, exaggeration, or miscongnition.


There are many more problems with the scenarios, but they are too numerous nand tedious to list without having to rack my brain for a LOONG time. However,. looking over them, it is possible there is a third possibility.

That God is infinite truly and exists, but isntead of a something we can understand and eprsonify, GOd is the title we lay on an energy that binds everything together and creates everything. It is not self-conscious or aware, but it is there and always has been. It is what determines how planets move and why, how the unverse expands, how life devvelops. It is a guiding hand without being a hand or a guide. I cannot even describe it, but somehow to me this is the only thing that can make sense. It is p[ossible that on some level we are attuned to this force, thus the concepts of destiny for we know where it will take us. That our finite prevents us from understanding concepts such as time is their true force, as well as numbing us to other dimensions of perception. That psychologists believe that we have different levels of conscio-usness is really true. That the parts of our brains we DON'T use are really used but for something we have yet to understand. But this sounds too new-age, too many cult elements therein.

The only certain thing is that we will never know anything for certain. Sad but true. Maybe it is, as many suggested, that everything stems solely from our beliefs. That prayers and thoughts make worlds and shape Gods. Scouring through every text on any of these matters wil leave you just as unsure or convinced as you were before. Sometimes I wish I knew. I don't. The truth wouldn't make us happier. We would die anyway... or would we find a path out?

But wouldn't a muslim or hindu say the same about adherence to their faiths?

Ok, lets have a look at the options:
1) You can only get into heaven if you truly believe in the one true faith.
2) You are judged not by belief but by your actions.

Now lets look at numbers:
First of all - Major Religions
Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Data: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

So, being a christian gives you (just judging from the numbers) 1:3 odds of having the right faith (est. world population: 6.000.000.000) in terms of numbers. However, as there are ~ 12 major religions (Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism) the odds are actually 1:12, as size doesn't matter :)

Now branches of Christianity
Catholic 1,050,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
Anglican 73,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000
New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
Mennonite 1,250,000
Friends (Quakers) 300,000
Unfortunately, most christian faiths are mutually exclusive, as the whole point of different branches of one religion is that they all claim to be the one true faith.

The best bet: Roman Catholicism (because it is the only church, apart from the Orthodox Church, that can be traced back directly to the apostles. They might have got it wrong but then all the churches split from it must also be wrong, apart from those like the Latter Day Saints, who claim to have a whole new book of rules given by god to their prophet (i.e. the book of Mormon). So, 1/6 of the world population (including me) got it right and theoretically tabs on a ticket to heaven.

However, what if the Mormons got it right? Then only 12 million out of 6 billion will be saved.

Now put the options and numbers together.The chances that you are actually a follower of the one true faith are actually pretty slim (unless RC turns out to be right, in which case 1/6 of the world can hope). Now if god would indeed only save those having the one true faith, I would find that quite spiteful, or rather call it a very sick sense of humour on god's side. This would not be a god I would want to believe in! But since I have faith in the fairness of god (more than in anything else), I would always go for option 2!

Unless of course, we are all wrong and there is no god at all. But especially in this case it only matters what your actions are while on this world.

And then there is always the possibility that Terry Pratchett is right that after you die whatever you believe in will come true. So those of you who always worry, because it is not possible to go through life without sinning (and it's not): so you should ;)

<snip> (1st post)


This is something that pretty much all Christians disagree on... I'm going to take the easy road (for now) and sit on the fence by saying I don't know... does that help? :rolleyes:

Has anyone ever considered asking some representative of the Vatican? Don't they have some sort of forum or else to react on such questions?

On the other hand: How would they know? The people in the Vatican are humans, too and definitely don't know more about what Jesus or God thinks as we do.

Cheers
Grand Duke of Natural Nerds
:p

If I dont believe in theological musings of esoteric Egyptian/Greek philosophy, I will go what now?

Ok, lets have a look at the options:
1) You can only get into heaven if you truly believe in the one true faith.
2) You are judged not by belief but by your actions.

Now lets look at numbers:
First of all - Major Religions
Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Data: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

So, being a christian gives you (just judging from the numbers) 1:3 odds of having the right faith (est. world population: 6.000.000.000) in terms of numbers. However, as there are ~ 12 major religions (Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism) the odds are actually 1:12, as size doesn't matter :)

Now branches of Christianity
Catholic 1,050,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
Anglican 73,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000
New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
Mennonite 1,250,000
Friends (Quakers) 300,000
Unfortunately, most christian faiths are mutually exclusive, as the whole point of different branches of one religion is that they all claim to be the one true faith.

The best bet: Roman Catholicism (because it is the only church, apart from the Orthodox Church, that can be traced back directly to the apostles. They might have got it wrong but then all the churches split from it must also be wrong, apart from those like the Latter Day Saints, who claim to have a whole new book of rules given by god to their prophet (i.e. the book of Mormon). So, 1/6 of the world population (including me) got it right and theoretically tabs on a ticket to heaven.

However, what if the Mormons got it right? Then only 12 million out of 6 billion will be saved.

Now put the options and numbers together.The chances that you are actually a follower of the one true faith are actually pretty slim (unless RC turns out to be right, in which case 1/6 of the world can hope). Now if god would indeed only save those having the one true faith, I would find that quite spiteful, or rather call it a very sick sense of humour on god's side. This would not be a god I would want to believe in! But since I have faith in the fairness of god (more than in anything else), I would always go for option 2!

Unless of course, we are all wrong and there is no god at all. But especially in this case it only matters what your actions are while on this world.

And then there is always the possibility that Terry Pratchett is right that after you die whatever you believe in will come true. So those of you who always worry, because it is not possible to go through life without sinning (and it's not): so you should ;)
I just got to say … nicely put :)
Though you did the number crunch for the final following I would put up the fact that on a number of religion basis only

Including the fact that Christianity sects are exclusive and in reality for the purpose of salvation be considered separate religions that there is a one in 18+12 if I remember right chance

So the odds are 1: 30 chance of getting the “right” religion just in the main categories using the idea of random draw.

(though its early I could be completely wrong)

I just got to say … nicely put :)
Though you did the number crunch for the final following I would put up the fact that on a number of religion basis only

Including the fact that Christianity sects are exclusive and in reality for the purpose of salvation be considered separate religions that there is a one in 18+12 if I remember right chance

So the odds are 1: 30 chance of getting the “right” religion just in the main categories using the idea of random draw.

(though its early I could be completely wrong)

You don't get saved for the religion that you believe. You get saved for believing only one statement: that Jesus, as God, came to Earth to die for your sins. Ta-da. You're saved. Everything else is negotiable. The odds are actually far better.

You don't get saved for the religion that you believe. You get saved for believing only one statement: that Jesus, as God, came to Earth to die for your sins. Ta-da. You're saved. Everything else is negotiable. The odds are actually far better.
I can very well say that … believing it is a completely different matter

I just got to say … nicely put :)
Though you did the number crunch for the final following I would put up the fact that on a number of religion basis only

Including the fact that Christianity sects are exclusive and in reality for the purpose of salvation be considered separate religions that there is a one in 18+12 if I remember right chance

So the odds are 1: 30 chance of getting the “right” religion just in the main categories using the idea of random draw.

(though its early I could be completely wrong)

So basically we're playing a game of roulette with whatever comes after life......and damn myself for not being a gambling man. :p

I can very well say that … believing it is a completely different matter

Well, hard luck. You have to believe it from the bottom of your heart, because God doesn't give **** about what you say. It's what you believe that counts. Good luck! :fluffle:

You don't get saved for the religion that you believe. You get saved for believing only one statement: that Jesus, as God, came to Earth to die for your sins. Ta-da. You're saved. Everything else is negotiable. The odds are actually far better.
If I understand you correctly, you say that all christian groups should be considered as one. In which case we are back at:
1:3 (in terms of numbers)
1:12 (in terms of classical world religions)

Faith should not actually be chosen by odds, though. I only posted my last comment to show that the chances of actually having the one true faith are pretty slim and therefore it is to be assumed that good would not be so narrowminded as to exclude the majority of people from heaven.

But then I also believe that all our speculation in the ways of god are pretty pointless, because if we could fathom these ways we'd be divine ourselves ;)

If I understand you correctly, you say that all christian groups should be considered as one. In which case we are back at:
1:3 (in terms of numbers)
1:12 (in terms of classical world religions)

Faith should not actually be chosen by odds, though. I only posted my last comment to show that the chances of actually having the one true faith are pretty slim and therefore it is to be assumed that good would not be so narrowminded as to exclude the majority of people from heaven.

But then I also believe that all our speculation in the ways of god are pretty pointless, because if we could fathom these ways we'd be divine ourselves ;)

No no. I don't think all Christian groups are one group today. It should, despite our different opinions, because we are bound by one head, Jesus Christ.

Anyway, that's beside my point. I agree with you. Faith isn't chosen by odds. But I just wanted to say to become entitled to salvation you don't take potshots at different denominations, but by believing in the above given statement.

But I just wanted to say to become entitled to salvation you don't take potshots at different denominations, but by believing in the above given statement.
And that's where we have to agree to disagree. Because the whole point of my posts was to show that your statement excludes the majority of the world population at any given point in history. Since I don't believe god would do so, I don't consider this statement to be true.

Well, hard luck. You have to believe it from the bottom of your heart, because God doesn't give **** about what you say. It's what you believe that counts. Good luck! :fluffle:
That’s ok if there is a god I am sure he will understand me if not … fuck him cause there is nothing I can really do about it

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

Simply being sorry for your sins does not guarantee a heavenly reward. There must be contrition and a firm effort on the part of the sinner to "sin no more".
Also, living by the Ten Commandments handed down to Moses is essential, along with loving your neighbor as you love yourself. I know we're taking the Ten Commandments out of the schools and courthouses these days, but they are still and always will be the commandments to live by for those wishing to see God in Heaven.

...cause there is nothing I can really do about it
That's absolutely correct. The way it has been set up (stated above), there is nothing at all you can do about it, and no hope for salvation.

You don't get saved for the religion that you believe. You get saved for believing only one statement: that Jesus, as God, came to Earth to die for your sins. Ta-da. You're saved. Everything else is negotiable. The odds are actually far better.
But you grossly understate what is required, here. That "one statement" contains in it a whole mess of assumptions, things we are required to believe. We must believe there is a God. We must believe Jesus is "as God". We must believe he came to Earth to die. We must believe his death has some mystical effect to wash away "bad" things we do; to absolve us in the eyes of God; and that God actually believes things about this on his end. We must believe that we are born into sin. The assumptions go on and on, compiling. There is nothing simple about it.

Oh nyah. I'm here as an informer, not a persuader. I would like to, but it's up to you, lol.

That's absolutely correct. The way it has been set up (stated above), there is nothing at all you can do about it, and no hope for salvation.
Yup unless something fundamental changes before my death (which could happen tomorrow for all I know) I am in a no win situation with the Christian god condemning me to hell no matter how hard I try

You can go through the motions but forcing yourself to believe something is a whole different beast

Has anyone ever considered asking some representative of the Vatican? Don't they have some sort of forum or else to react on such questions?

On the other hand: How would they know? The people in the Vatican are humans, too and definitely don't know more about what Jesus or God thinks as we do.

Cheers
Grand Duke of Natural Nerds
:p

I believe those representatives arew called priests and I consult them every Sunday and understand well how to get to Heaven.

But you grossly understate what is required, here. That "one statement" contains in it a whole mess of assumptions, things we are required to believe. We must believe there is a God. We must believe Jesus is "as God". We must believe he came to Earth to die. We must believe his death has some mystical effect to wash away "bad" things we do; to absolve us in the eyes of God; and that God actually believes things about this on his end. We must believe that we are born into sin. The assumptions go on and on, compiling. There is nothing simple about it.
Absolutely … and in the end if we fail in these steps we have a supposedly “all loving” deity to punish us

Yup unless something fundamental changes before my death (which could happen tomorrow for all I know) I am in a no win situation with the Christian god condemning me to hell no matter how hard I try

You can go through the motions but forcing yourself to believe something is a whole different beast
Nothing could be further from the truth.

I believe those representatives arew called priests and I consult them every Sunday and understand well how to get to Heaven.
Well I have to do without such enlightenment I hope god can accommodate

Nothing vould be further from the truth.
Care to say why?

And hence one of my moral issues with the christian god

Hmm. "Moral issues with ... god." Interesting.

Somehow, I think He has more "moral issues" with you than vice-versa, and I don't even know you.

I go to a Catholic High school, and I was taught this in my faith class. When someone dies, God is revealed to them in his entirety. God then asks if you accept him. If you do, then you go to heaven. If you are obstinate and do not accept God even after He reveals himself to you, you go to hell. If you are from some tribe in the middle of nowhere that has not even heard of Christianity, then you can go to heaven. One is expected to try and find God throughout one's life. You have a duty to try and follow God and learn about Him. What is heaven? Heaven is being completely in communion with God and his love. For a follower of God, this is paradise. Hell is where the people who choose to reject God go. It is simply a state of being where one is cut of from God completely. Sin is a act which we know will further remove ourselves from God. If we sin alot, what do you think we will do in the afterlife? This explination does not rejet free will in any way.

Hmm. "Moral issues with ... god." Interesting.

Somehow, I think He has more "moral issues" with you than vice-versa, and I don't even know you.
I said the Christian god … who may or may not exist

I think it more likely Christianity got it wrong in the details if there is a god therefore I do not say God is morally wrong … just the Christian description of him or her

Yup unless something fundamental changes before my death (which could happen tomorrow for all I know) I am in a no win situation with the Christian god condemning me to hell no matter how hard I try

You can go through the motions but forcing yourself to believe something is a whole different beast


If you don't believe in God, then why should you worry about hell? If you are concerned about hell, then that is proof that you do believe (or at least suspect) that God exists. And if that's your belief, then you know the consequences for your actions (or inactions), or you wouldn't be worrying about it in the first place. Q.E.D.

I go to a Catholic High school, and I was taught this in my faith class. When someone dies, God is revealed to them in his entirety. God then asks if you accept him. If you do, then you go to heaven. If you are obstinate and do not accept God even after He reveals himself to you, you go to hell. If you are from some tribe in the middle of nowhere that has not even heard of Christianity, then you can go to heaven. One is expected to try and find God throughout one's life. You have a duty to try and follow God and learn about Him. What is heaven? Heaven is being completely in communion with God and his love. For a follower of God, this is paradise. Hell is where the people who choose to reject God go. It is simply a state of being where one is cut of from God completely. Sin is a act which we know will further remove ourselves from God. If we sin alot, what do you think we will do in the afterlife? This explination does not rejet free will in any way.
That I can see … him coming to you … being honest and letting you decide

Unlike on this earth where picking a religion is more like playing Russian roulette but with 5 bullets in a 6 shooter rather then 1

You get ANY other then the one empty you are dead rather then the more forgiving normal way to play where you get anyone but the one that has the bullet you are fine

I said the Christian god … who may or may not exist

I think it more likely Christianity got it wrong in the details if there is a god therefore I do not say God is morally wrong … just the Christian description of him or her


And from where does the "Christian description of him or her" come?

If you don't believe in God, then why should you worry about hell? If you are concerned about hell, then that is proof that you do believe (or at least suspect) that God exists. And if that's your belief, then you know the consequences for your actions (or inactions), or you wouldn't be worrying about it in the first place. Q.E.D.
I was arguing based on a premise of the existence of god … that does not mean I believe in a hell but rather arguing with the set premises for debate purposes

And from where does the "Christian description of him or her" come?
Depends on the argument … everything from biblical description to specific church dogma it all depends on the argument

Care to say why?
See post 279. It descibes it beautifully.

I was arguing based on a premise of the existence of god … that does not mean I believe in a hell but rather arguing with the set premises for debate purposes


In other words, you're just the type who likes to argue things for the sake of argument. And here I thought that this might be a serious search for some kind of truth. Silly me ...

a gamble is a gamble. I've made my bet and I'm sticking to it.

Then let me make mine without having to be called a sinner and a heathen while doing so.

Depends on the argument … everything from biblical description to specific church dogma it all depends on the argument

So in other words, you don't have a specific "Christian description of God." I suppose that's a good thing, since, as you're a not a Christian, you wouldn't be expected to have one.

In other words, you're just the type who likes to argue things for the sake of argument. And here I thought that this might be a serious search for some kind of truth. Silly me ...
Tried that search … in the end it comes down to me not having faith

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

Actually, not the babies, because they will have not reached what's called the "Age of Knowing" ... the age at which a person can knowingly choose to follow Christ.

So in other words, you don't have a specific "Christian description of God." I suppose that's a good thing, since, as you're a not a Christian, you wouldn't be expected to have one.
There are too many separate views to have one singular view when looking from the outside

All the little sects have slightly different views on god and his acts

That’s why I said it depends on the sect when coming to the specifics … overall I have issues with some of the big concepts such as the attitude change between OT and NT not to mention logical flaws in omnipotence combined with my disbelief that a loving god would have salvation by faith alone and you have a lot of my problem with Christianity

Depends on the argument … everything from biblical description to specific church dogma it all depends on the argument
Include individual Christian's personal descriptions, too.

personally, i'm not really fussed about where i go in the after life. and i'm not going to get worried about it now.

In other words, you're just the type who likes to argue things for the sake of argument. And here I thought that this might be a serious search for some kind of truth. Silly me ...
On the contrary, it is a debate with two people arguing from different, valid sides.

"Why did God change his mind between the old and new testaments?"

God did not change his mind. Look in the old testament and it reveals God's plan to do what he did in the new testament. The new testament is the fulfillment of what God said, in the old testament, he was going to do.

Actually, not the babies, because they will have not reached what's called the "Age of Knowing" ... the age at which a person can knowingly choose to follow Christ.
In other words, not yet human beings. :)

Include individual Christian's personal descriptions, too.
Thought about that I hit submit

In the end if you want to argue on a level field you have to modify your argument to take into account some of their premises … as that is different between denominations … people … religions … lifestyles you name it you have to modify sometimes the premises you work with to truly analyze the idea you are discussing.

Its kind of amazing to watch some debaters do it (we don’t see it out of the Christian side too much “this is our belief … we are right so why should I have to think like anyone else cause we are right” not to say it does not happen (depublicants is a great example)

A good debater works with what he or she is given and works on the premises to turn it into a true debate rather then just a “I believe I am right” no “I believe I am right” argument

Works are not required only faith … in the Christian circle of faith

Must your faith be blind?

first off.....nazis were evil. there's no doubt about that. and they deserve to go to hell. but christianity says that every sin is equal in God's eyes. This means that i deserve to go to hell as much as Hitler does. I am an evil being because i have been seperated from God by my sin.

But, God is merciful, and quick to forgive, but he also doesn't put up with any crap. I believe that yes. There were nazi's who went to heaven regardless of their crimes here on earth. if they truely (and i emphasize the truely part) if they sincerely repented, and asked God for his forgiveness, then he will or has given it to them.

God made us all, and so we are his children. He cannot love anyone of us more than another, so he cannot forgive one of us easier than he can forgive another.

The key thing to remeber is that we are all equal in God's eyes. (despite what some hypocritical Christians are and hae said.) All we need to do is accept his forgiveness. Does it seem fair to us now? no. not to me really. but there's something comforting in knowing that God can forgive even them, so he will accept me as well, just as i am, if i'm humble and can repent.

lol, sorry for the sermon. :) i don't know if anyone's said all of this, lol i didn't want to read all of the posts. lol perhaps i'm too lazy.

"Why did God change his mind between the old and new testaments?"

God did not change his mind. Look in the old testament and it reveals God's plan to do what he did in the new testament. The new testament is the fulfillment of what God said, in the old testament, he was going to do.
Yeah but he spend an awful lot of time removing peoples free will by killing them rather then the new “lets stand back and we will judge them when their time comes due” attitude out of the NT

Tried that search … in the end it comes down to me not having faith

I'm sorry to hear that. Still, that's something that might change with time. I didn't believe in God either at one time, but, fortunately, he believed in me.

Must your faith be blind?
Faith in the end is taking that last leap … without proof so yeah in a sense all faith is blind at some point otherwise it would not be true faith.

Thought about that I hit submit

In the end if you want to argue on a level field you have to modify your argument to take into account some of their premises … as that is different between denominations … people … religions … lifestyles you name it you have to modify sometimes the premises you work with to truly analyze the idea you are discussing.

Its kind of amazing to watch some debaters do it (we don’t see it out of the Christian side too much “this is our belief … we are right so why should I have to think like anyone else cause we are right” not to say it does not happen (depublicants is a great example)

A good debater works with what he or she is given and works on the premises to turn it into a true debate rather then just a “I believe I am right” no “I believe I am right” argument
Yup. Plus each of them contributes to the whole mythology, and enriches it.

There are too many separate views to have one singular view when looking from the outside

All the little sects have slightly different views on god and his acts

That’s why I said it depends on the sect when coming to the specifics … overall I have issues with some of the big concepts such as the attitude change between OT and NT not to mention logical flaws in omnipotence combined with my disbelief that a loving god would have salvation by faith alone and you have a lot of my problem with Christianity

You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation. Obviously, there are men who are wrong in this religion thing. That is where YOUR FAITH becomes important. If you have none, you'll lose energy in your search for God. Call on the Holy Spirit and ask for the grace and strength you need to help find the way. Seek and you shall find!

When someone dies, God is revealed to them in his entirety. God then asks if you accept him. If you do, then you go to heaven. If you are obstinate and do not accept God even after He reveals himself to you, you go to hell. If you are from some tribe in the middle of nowhere that has not even heard of Christianity, then you can go to heaven.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I like this version. Primarily, it eases tension between religious and non-religious groups (or between different religious groups) until they're, well, dead.

And second, the reason why I don't believe in god (at least not any god that has been predefined by another religion; long story, another thread, perhaps?) is because I can only make logical arguments that can affirm or deny his/her existence. Because logical arguments can do only so little, I am uncertain. If he/she were to be revealed to me in some awesome, supernatural vision, I would be convinced and go to "heaven" anyway.

But for the record, my main beef with Christianity and/or most Christians is that it/they declare/s that the only true god is theirs, and that any other is false, and that anyone who follows such a god is a sinner. Isn't it simply possible for us to just... coexist? Christians can believe whatever they want to, and Buddhists, Jains, Hindus, Muslims, and others can do the same as well.

See? Everyone wins.

"Why did God change his mind between the old and new testaments?"

God did not change his mind. Look in the old testament and it reveals God's plan to do what he did in the new testament. The new testament is the fulfillment of what God said, in the old testament, he was going to do.


Yes, God did not change his mind. Before Christ, the requirement was that you believed that God would sent his son to pardon the human race. After Jesus, you must have faith that he died for your sins.

I'm sorry to hear that. Still, that's something that might change with time. I didn't believe in God either at one time, but, fortunately, he believed in me.
It may … I don’t discount that fact I keep my eyes open but right now I don’t have the faith. And know I never will have any faith in any organized religion again … BUT I may have faith in a god sure

Life is funny like that

See post 279. It descibes it beautifully.
Perhaps. But it doesn't answer the question asked.

first off.....nazis were evil. there's no doubt about that. and they deserve to go to hell. but christianity says that every sin is equal in God's eyes. This means that i deserve to go to hell as much as Hitler does. I am an evil being because i have been seperated from God by my sin.

But, God is merciful, and quick to forgive, but he also doesn't put up with any crap. I believe that yes. There were nazi's who went to heaven regardless of their crimes here on earth. if they truely (and i emphasize the truely part) if they sincerely repented, and asked God for his forgiveness, then he will or has given it to them.

God made us all, and so we are his children. He cannot love anyone of us more than another, so he cannot forgive one of us easier than he can forgive another.

The key thing to remeber is that we are all equal in God's eyes. (despite what some hypocritical Christians are and hae said.) All we need to do is accept his forgiveness. Does it seem fair to us now? no. not to me really. but there's something comforting in knowing that God can forgive even them, so he will accept me as well, just as i am, if i'm humble and can repent.

lol, sorry for the sermon. :) i don't know if anyone's said all of this, lol i didn't want to read all of the posts. lol perhaps i'm too lazy.

Does this make sense to anyone or am i totally off track?

You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation. Obviously, there are men who are wrong in this religion thing. That is where YOUR FAITH becomes important. If you have none, you'll lose energy in your search for God. Call on the Holy Spirit and ask for the grace and strength you need to help find the way. Seek and you shall find!
You got to know how silly this looks from the outside … all these little squabbling sects all claiming to be the “one true” faith

All of them claiming they understand that we are men therefore religious descriptions can be fallible BUT they claim theirs is the one that is “true” one and it was the others that failed in the description not themselves
It is rather hilarious

"Christianity: 2.1 billion"

Not all of those a real christians. The Bible says that it won't be a majority of mankind that enters heaven. Most of that 2.1 billion are actually people who use the christian label because in society, being called a christian is viewed as giving one perks. Its a stupid and ignorant reason to call yourself a christian but a lot of people do it.
Most of that 2.1 billion:

a. has never set foot in a church (despite claiming to be christian)
b. a lot of the ones to do attend church, turn around and sin the rest of the week thinking that as long as they are bench warmers they will get into heaven.
c. many of them think that the teachings of christ and of the bible are optional, you've seen those type on here.
d. alot of that 2.1 billion will claim they are saved because they have faith, but if they are going out and committing sin and not feeling bad about it, then they are lying when they say have faith. If you have faith, it will show itself in the way you live your life. For example, you would not be having sex outside of marriage or flirting with someone else's wife. If you claim to be a christian and you do stuff like that, you are lying, you are not a christian.
So those stats really don't mean anything.

The majority religions today are false christianity (in which christianity is nothing but a social club) and islam.

You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation...
That assumes there is a need for salvation. Which assumes a soul. Which assumes a God. Which assumes being able to turn away from God. Which makes assumptions on God's behalf. Which assumes...
Etc.

You got to know how silly this looks from the outside … all these little squabbling sects all claiming to be the “one true” faith

All of them claiming they understand that we are men therefore religious descriptions can be fallible BUT they claim theirs is the one that is “true” one and it was the others that failed in the description not themselves
It is rather hilarious


There are lots of petty differences that don't really matter among Christian sects. But there's only one thing that truely counts. Its up to you to discern what is true and imortant to you. God calls us to have faith, to believe in his son, but not to be ignorant and let ourselves be led blindly. He encourages us to explore his word and the world.

Perhaps. But it doesn't answer the question asked.
It does answer the question asked by Upward Thrust.

There are too many separate views to have one singular view when looking from the outside

All the little sects have slightly different views on god and his acts

That’s why I said it depends on the sect when coming to the specifics … overall I have issues with some of the big concepts such as the attitude change between OT and NT not to mention logical flaws in omnipotence combined with my disbelief that a loving god would have salvation by faith alone and you have a lot of my problem with Christianity

If you want a common view of what most Christians believe, read the Nicene Creed (which can be found by typing it into any search engine). Actually, that's just a description of who God is. As far as justification by faith is concerned, what "good deeds" could we possibly do to justify ourselves to God? Everyone has sinned to one degree or another and we all need something to reconcile ourselves to God, who is without sin. Trying to justify non-belief by attributing sin to God gets us nowhere, nor does pointing to the superficial divisions within Christianity. The first thing you have to do is to acknowledge that you are not the center of the universe, God is. Everything else springs from there.

Does this make sense to anyone or am i totally off track?
It's very "preturbing". Thanks. ;-)

On the contrary, it is a debate with two people arguing from different, valid sides.

Then I'll drop out of the "debate," as I really don't care for debating for it's own sake.

Originally Posted by Dorksonia
"You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation..."


That is because mankind was made with the need for something to worship, admire, to seek something hire than himself. That is why the athiests and the secularists will never succeed in their attempts to eliminate religion from society.
Religion will always be here because man has a genetic need for it.
In fact, scientists are saying that there is a specific religion gene that causes people to seek something higher than themselves.

You got to know how silly this looks from the outside … all these little squabbling sects all claiming to be the “one true” faith

All of them claiming they understand that we are men therefore religious descriptions can be fallible BUT they claim theirs is the one that is “true” one and it was the others that failed in the description not themselves
It is rather hilarious

If you do not care to search for God, don't. If you feel this is all a comedy act for your amusement, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I'm beginning to think you're trying to be disagreeable, so I'll graciously back out of this discussion now.

Good luck!

Then I'll drop out of the "debate," as I really don't care for debating for it's own sake.
Probably best … this is a political debate forum
IF you don’t want to debate this is not really the place for you

If you do not care to search for God, don't. If you feel this is all a comedy act for your amusement, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I'm beginning to think you're trying to be disagreeable, so I'll graciously back out of this discussion now.

Good luck!
No I am not trying to do this just to be disagreeable I was doing it to share what it looks like to us on the outside

Sometimes getting a different perspective on things lets you understand what you yourself are doing that you may be blind to.

Originally Posted by Dorksonia
"You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation..."


That is because mankind was made with the need for something to worship, admire, to seek something hire than himself. That is why the athiests and the secularists will never succeed in their attempts to eliminate religion from society.
Religion will always be here because man has a genetic need for it.
In fact, scientists are saying that there is a specific religion gene that causes people to seek something higher than themselves.

if we have this genetic need for religon then maybe there's a reason that we have this basic need.

Probably best … this is a political debate forum
IF you don’t want to debate this is not really the place for you
but what you are doing is not political debate but religious debate.

if we have this genetic need for religon then maybe there's a reason that we have this basic need.
exactly

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right?No. There are some folks out there who call themselves christians who might tell you "Yup! You're goin' to hell! Have a nice day!" These people are - a little nuts. God doesn't want to condemn you, or anybody else, to hell. God rather likes you, and everybody else, too. People have created the concept of hellfire and damnation to scare other people with. God does have a hell, but it isn't a bunch of fire and brimstone. You, and I, and everyone else, will understand everything perfectly in the after-life. And hell is having that understanding, and "living" for eternity with the knowledge of what we did to one another while here on earth. Do good, no hell.

So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?No, there would be no justice in that. No, it isn't right. Heaven is the perfect understanding, and knowing for eternity that, under the circumstances of your life, you did good. Those innocents put to death in the holocaust went straight to heaven, and will be there forever.

The Nazis? Well, the same applies. The will understand everything perfectly. They will know how horribly wrong what they did was. The only mitigating circumstances will be things like true diminished mental capacity. If some poor soul with seriously diminished mental capacity was taken advantage of by the Nazis, and used to torture and kill others, that soul will understand that perfectly, too, and will know it wasn't their fault. However, those of us who choose to treat one another inhumanly and horrifically will suffer eternally for it - mental anguish. True mental anguish is much worse than physical pain. That is hell - and we create it ourselves.

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife.So does real christianity.

Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell.It was never valid, it will never be valid. Strange people who are, in my opinion, inappropriately termed "religious fundamentalists" dream up this stuff, and go around telling everyone that it's what God said and wants. It's not. Don't trust anyone who tells you they fully understand God, or that they understand God better than you. Look into your heart and mind, and find God there. That is all anyone has, and the sharing of it if they so choose. Who tells you different lies.

And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?God didn't change his/her mind between testaments. God doesn't write books - men do. Mostly very, very, very well meaning men who want to help others, and who do have very good insight (in sight) about God. And then some more of these "religious fundamentalists" come along and "interpret" the bible/koran/what-have-you, and tell us what it means - according to them. Take what they have to say, and compare it to the God you find inside yourself. If they don't match, I would trust what I find inside.

This is my view. It probably isn't very popular - particulary with the more "religious" folks.

But I'm betting my afterlife on it. ;)

I want to just state how illogical this sentence is. If God is god, then He is perfect. He cannot error. He knows everything, He is resolute. He thus does not make any mistakes. Why would he do something, only to be "convinced" by a being He Himself created? Am I the only one :) :) who sees the glaring contradiction?

:) Yes you are. "God" is not perfect. There is no such thing as perfection. There is always or always will be something better. So since nothing is perfect that means "God" isn't perfect which means he can make mistakes. Which in turn means that he can be shown the error of his ways.

Then I'll drop out of the "debate," as I really don't care for debating for it's own sake.
Actually, I guess for most people --Upward Thrust included-- it is an odd mix of both. I had the same problem as you seem to, when I first began on these boards. There are times to adopt a debatable stance, and times to represent your own stance --and hopping from one to another can create much confusion (as Upward Thrust will attest).

Originally Posted by Dorksonia
"You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation..."


That is because mankind was made with the need for something to worship, admire, to seek something hire than himself. That is why the athiests and the secularists will never succeed in their attempts to eliminate religion from society.
Religion will always be here because man has a genetic need for it.
In fact, scientists are saying that there is a specific religion gene that causes people to seek something higher than themselves.
Who said we were all trying to eliminate religion? We are just attempting to not let a faith we don’t believe in rule us … same reason you would not want your life choices determined by another faith such as Islam

but what you are doing is not political debate but religious debate.
I was talking overall … general is a beast unto itself but still in the debate realm

:) So since nothing is perfect that means "God" isn't perfect which means he can make mistakes. Which in turn means that he can be shown the error of his ways.

If God isn't perfect then jesus wasn't perfect. and that would make this entire conversation useless. it would destroy our faith. If Jesus was not perfect, (because he was God) then our religon is obsolete simply because it's built on his sacrifice for us. that sacrifice would have been in vain and we're all screwed.

Actually, I guess for most people --Upward Thrust included-- it is an odd mix of both. I had the same problem as you seem to, when I first began on these boards. There are times to adopt a debatable stance, and times to represent your own stance --and hopping from one to another can create much confusion (as Upward Thrust will attest).
Absolutely I find myself arguing from a deist standpoint often enough that I am questioning weather I am agnostic atheist or agnostic deist lol

But that is the intellectual challenge of debating well

Sometimes it is annoying when people make assumptions based on your arguments about you but sometimes it is useful :) as you very well know lol

I love to see you broad side people that see a little bit of religion in you and make assumptions about your faith and you broad side them completely out of no where with your true faith (which I must say is very hard to debate lol (or prove for that matter lol))

if we have this genetic need for religon then maybe there's a reason that we have this basic need.
If you accept that social needs are "genetic" at all, which is a huge leap (into determinism).

Who said we were all trying to eliminate religion? We are just attempting to not let a faith we don’t believe in rule us … same reason you would not want your life choices determined by another faith such as Islam
The thing with that is that if you want to get rid of religion there are plenty of places where you can go where that is the case. China is an example as is France.
If you want to be free to express your religion in public places there are places for those too, namely the United States.
If you want to live in a place where laws are based primarily on christianity, the US, Britain are examples.
If you want to be where Islam is the basis of laws, there is Saudi Arabia and Algeria.
If you don't like the way it is done in one place, you can go to the place that does things the way you want them to be done.

If you accept that social needs are "genetic" at all, which is a huge leap (into determinism).


if not genetic then fine. But you have to agree, there is a basic need hard-wired into us for something to believe in.

Probably best … this is a political debate forum
IF you don’t want to debate this is not really the place for you

Thanks for the cheery word of welcome. I'll take your advice. Buh-bye!

if we have this genetic need for religon then maybe there's a reason that we have this basic need.

Only 5% of the species are 'leaders', and most of the rest are quite willing to follow the strong wherever they take them. It's not religion that we look for, it's guidance and understanding. Because in the past we did not have explanations for various phenomena, religious beliefs were formed - these began largely with animism, and moved on to shamanism, from there into various modern beliefs such as Christianity, Taoism, and Hinduism. These things offer the guidance to the people who believe they need it.

At any rate; can someone explain this to me?

Deuteronomy 24:16 - "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Now, how can that piece of scripture be reconciled with the concept of Original Sin? We can't be punished for the actions of our ancestors or descendants, according to Deut. 24:16, yet we must all languish outside the Garden of Eden with knowledge of sin and shame, and women must suffer in childbirth (And apparently be slaves to men) because of Eve. Genesis 3:16 -

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

The thing with that is that if you want to get rid of religion there are plenty of places where you can go where that is the case. China is an example as is France.
If you want to be free to express your religion in public places there are places for those too, namely the United States.
If you want to live in a place where laws are based primarily on christianity, the US, Britain are examples.
If you want to be where Islam is the basis of laws, there is Saudi Arabia and Algeria.
If you don't like the way it is done in one place, you can go to the place that does things the way you want them to be done.
Nope sorry not going to buy the need to move just because people cant follow the separation of church and state clause

I would rather work to change the country to the way it was intended in the constitution rather then change my location

Thanks for the cheery word of welcome. I'll take your advice. Buh-bye!
I was not trying to drive you away but this is a debate forum .. there is almost no statement you can ever make on this whole board that wont lead to some sort of debate. That’s what this whole general forum is about, if you like debate or want to talk about it fine you are more then welcome to stay
Even if you don’t you are more then welcome to stay, but you will have to expect debate … that’s just how it works around here.

Only 5% of the species are 'leaders', and most of the rest are quite willing to follow the strong wherever they take them. It's not religion that we look for, it's guidance and understanding. Because in the past we did not have explanations for various phenomena, religious beliefs were formed - these began largely with animism, and moved on to shamanism, from there into various modern beliefs such as Christianity, Taoism, and Hinduism. These things offer the guidance to the people who believe they need it.

At any rate; can someone explain this to me?

Deuteronomy 24:16 - "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Now, how can that piece of scripture be reconciled with the concept of Original Sin? We can't be punished for the actions of our ancestors or descendants, according to Deut. 24:16, yet we must all languish outside the Garden of Eden with knowledge of sin and shame, and women must suffer in childbirth (And apparently be slaves to men) because of Eve. Genesis 3:16 -

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

The issue is not that one man sinned. its that, we as a species have sin within us. we were created that way, we were created with free will and that gives us the ability to sin. God did this so that we could choose him if we wish. He gave us this ultimate choice.

(remember also that Adam and Eve made up our entire species)

if not genetic then fine. But you have to agree, there is a basic need hard-wired into us for something to believe in.
Again, "hard-wired" is language that points to fate (as determinism does). It suggests that everyone has this need inherent, and that's obviously not the case. I can't make that claim for all humanity--can you? The relationships we build with god, and the symbolic language we use to express them, are certainly learned things. Perhaps the need is, too, for some.

Nope sorry not going to buy the need to move just because people cant follow the separation of church and state clause

I would rather work to change the country to the way it was intended in the constitution rather then change my location
You mean change it to the way you intend? Cause the founders never intended that prayer be banned from public places.

The issue is not that one man sinned. its that, we as a species have sin within us. we were created that way, we were created with free will and that gives us the ability to sin. God did this so that we could choose him if we wish. He gave us this ultimate choice.

(remember also that Adam and Eve made up our entire species)
No we were created without the knowledge of sin … can one really sin if he has no knowledge it is a sin?
We THEN fell from grace

Again, "hard-wired" is language that points to fate (as determinism does). It suggests that everyone has this need inherent, and that's obviously not the case. I can't make that claim for all humanity--can you? The relationships we build with god, and the symbolic language we use to express them, are certainly learned things.


everyone ultimately chases after something...puts their faith in something...not nesecarily a supernatural or omnipresent entity...some put their faith into chasing after money...a good career....education....I don't think it's really possible to not put our faith into SOMETHING to get by.

You mean change it to the way you intend? Cause the founders never intended that prayer be banned from public places.

Prayer itself isn't banned. You can pray privately if you desire, but what is banned is forcing everyone to pray one way, or even forcing them to pray at all.

You mean change it to the way you intend? Cause the founders never intended that prayer be banned from public places.
And who is trying to ban prayer in public places? Certainly not me.

everyone ultimately chases after something...puts their faith in something...not nesecarily a supernatural or omnipresent entity...some put their faith into chasing after money...a good career....education....I don't think it's really possible to not put our faith into SOMETHING to get by.
Ah, when you generalize it that much, I cannot disagree. ;)

Originally Posted by Dorksonia
"You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation..."


That is because mankind was made with the need for something to worship, admire, to seek something hire than himself. That is why the athiests and the secularists will never succeed in their attempts to eliminate religion from society.
Religion will always be here because man has a genetic need for it.
In fact, scientists are saying that there is a specific religion gene that causes people to seek something higher than themselves.

First things first. In response to your first paragraph we are all "God". "God" is not some all powerful being. "God" is simply the emptiness where everything comes from and where it all goes back to when it dies, is destroyed, etc. When you get right down to it we are all "God". But you are right about one thing. There is one "God" and all of the "different" religions are simply trying to understand the same thing but from different veiws.

In response to your second paragraph if mankind is made with the need to worship something if it is truly biological that mankind needs religion then how do you explain atheists or agnostics or those people who beleive that they are "God', that they are the highest form in the universe, that everyone should worship them. Are they just freaks of nature? Mutants lacking an essential gene to human life? Are they to be despised and laughed at? In my opinion the concept of the religious "God" is purely a matter of the mind. People form their own opinions and beliefs. That is why it is a debatable issue. If there is a "religious gene" then everyone should believe that "God" exsits. But since not everyone believes that it seems pretty clear that there is no "religious gene" demanding that we believe.

First things first. In response to your first paragraph we are all "God". "God" is not some all powerful being. "God" is simply the emptiness where everything comes from and where it all goes back to when it dies, is destroyed, etc.
Another lovely image of God (one for Upward Thrust to add to his collection).

(If you're not collecting them, well... someone should be.)

First things first. In response to your first paragraph we are all "God". "God" is not some all powerful being. "God" is simply the emptiness where everything comes from and where it all goes back to when it dies, is destroyed, etc. When you get right down to it we are all "God". But you are right about one thing. There is one "God" and all of the "different" religions are simply trying to understand the same thing but from different veiws.

In response to your second paragraph if mankind is made with the need to worship something if it is truly biological that mankind needs religion then how do you explain atheists or agnostics or those people who beleive that they are "God', that they are the highest form in the universe, that everyone should worship them. Are they just freaks of nature? Mutants lacking an essential gene to human life? Are they to be despised and laughed at? In my opinion the concept of the religious "God" is purely a matter of the mind. People form their own opinions and beliefs. That is why it is a debatable issue. If there is a "religious gene" then everyone should believe that "God" exsits. But since not everyone believes that it seems pretty clear that there is no "religious gene" demanding that we believe.
It has been presented that religion and the religious “gene” is an evolutionary advantage

Just think how powerful a tool the ability to organize a group of humans to zealously follow an un provable idea … it would be an incredible way to control and organize people and working as a group (weather the idea that they follow is true or not) and increase their chance of survival possibly passing on that “ability to believe gene”

It was presented much better in a book called evolution by Stephan Baxter … interesting thought

Another lovely image of God (one for Upward Thrust to add to his collection).

(If you're not collecting them, well... someone should be.)
His god as a black hole idea vs your god is everywhere and everyone … that glowing on the inside idea you believe :) (just trying to make sure I still remember your viewpoint to)

Those two make an interesting contrast

If God isn't perfect then jesus wasn't perfect. and that would make this entire conversation useless. it would destroy our faith. If Jesus was not perfect, (because he was God) then our religon is obsolete simply because it's built on his sacrifice for us. that sacrifice would have been in vain and we're all screwed.

Correct. This conversstion is useless. Oh and by the way jesus was NOT "God" he was the son of "God". Also doesn't seem a little far fetched that one man can redeem ALL of mankind ALL of the billions for ALL of their sins. Your whole religion is baised on this theory. So yes, in my opinion your whole religion is obsolete.

Ah, when you generalize it that much, I cannot disagree. ;)


i thought that the generilization is the point....we have to believe in something. yes it is generalized because that's the way it is for everyone...its the way we were created (if you believe we were created)

In other words, not yet human beings. :)

Welp, you see, one must believe in order to be saved.... so Jesus says in John 3:16 and Paul corroborates in Romans 10:9-10... so if you're not old enough to be able to hold any beliefs, you are His... because he also said this:
-------
Matthew 19: 13-14
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
--------

Jesus would not send little kids to hell... certainly not when they're not old enough to make the decision to follow him and be saved.

to the dude who started the thread, if you want to know bout salvation, start by reading the gospels.

Two enormously important, and clear, passages are John 3:16-17 and Romans 10:9-10, which will give you the prerequisites for salvation.

[QUOTE=Haddess]Correct. This conversstion is useless. Oh and by the way jesus was NOT "God" he was the son of "God". Also doesn't seem a little far fetched that one man can redeem ALL of mankind ALL of the billions for ALL of their sins. Your whole religion is baised on this theory. So yes, in my opinion your whole religion is obsolete.[/QUOT

then may i assume that you do not understand the trinity concept of Christianity?

His god as a black hole idea vs your god is everywhere and everyone … that glowing on the inside idea you believe :) (just trying to make sure I still remember your viewpoint to)

Those two make an interesting contrast
I like my image best. :)

It has been presented that religion and the religious “gene” is an evolutionary advantage

Just think how powerful a tool the ability to organize a group of humans to zealously follow an un provable idea … it would be an incredible way to control and organize people and working as a group (weather the idea that they follow is true or not) and increase their chance of survival possibly passing on that “ability to believe gene”

It was presented much better in a book called evolution by Stephan Baxter … interesting thought

You are correct that it is an advantage to be able to organize people like that. It does increase ones possibility for survivial. But we do not pass on this "religious gene" we are told over and over and over again at a very young age before we can formulate our own ideas about these things.

I also never said that it wasn't an advantage.

then may i assume that you do not understand the trinity concept of Christianity?
The whole trinity thing seemed more like an attempt to attract polytheistic followers into a sort of monotheistic religion anyways

Correct. This conversstion is useless. Oh and by the way jesus was NOT "God" he was the son of "God". Also doesn't seem a little far fetched that one man can redeem ALL of mankind ALL of the billions for ALL of their sins. Your whole religion is baised on this theory. So yes, in my opinion your whole religion is obsolete.

Jesus was/is God incarnate.

I like my image best. :)
Yeah if you are going to believe in something yours seems a lot more up beat :p

[QUOTE=Haddess]Correct. This conversstion is useless. Oh and by the way jesus was NOT "God" he was the son of "God". Also doesn't seem a little far fetched that one man can redeem ALL of mankind ALL of the billions for ALL of their sins. Your whole religion is baised on this theory. So yes, in my opinion your whole religion is obsolete.[/QUOT

then may i assume that you do not understand the trinity concept of Christianity?

Yes you may assume that and you would be correct. All i know is that the trinity is the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost. Would you be kind enough to elaborate and explain each part to me.

The whole trinity thing seemed more like an attempt to attract polytheistic followers into a sort of monotheistic religion anyways



the whole thing is that God is One entity....but, he is also a trinity. he put himself into human form, because humanity required a perfect sacrifice to redeem us.

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

Yes you may assume that and you would be correct. All i know is that the trinity is the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost. Would you be kind enough to elaborate and explain each part to me.


i had it explained to me this way once.....a woman can be a mother, a wife, and say, a teacher if that were her profession, but she is still one person....does that make sense at all?

the whole thing is that God is One entity....but, he is also a trinity. he put himself into human form, because humanity required a perfect sacrifice to redeem us.
I understand the reasoning you guys give for it

But overall impression of mine (hence why I said it “seems like”) is as I said either an attempt to draw followers that or an incorporation of paganistic beliefs into Christianity … lord knows Christianity has stolen a lot from other religions in the past

[QUOTE=Haddess]


i had it explained to me this way once.....a woman can be a mother, a wife, and say, a teacher if that were her profession, but she is still one person....does that make sense at all?

I was always taught that it was like a shamrock. Three leaves representing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but all are a part of the same plant

I understand the reasoning you guys give for it

But overall impression of mine (hence why I said it “seems like”) is as I said either an attempt to draw followers that or an incorporation of paganistic beliefs into Christianity … lord knows Christianity has stolen a lot from other religions in the past



or maybe similar concepts reflect....observations made on the basic principles and exsitence of this world.

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

I was always taught that it was like a shamrock. Three leaves representing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but all are a part of the same plant


cool...thanks....haddn't heard that one...makes sense.

Jesus was/is God incarnate.

That is what the masses believed. Did you know that Jesus was actually Jewish.That hew was a rabbi. What Jesus actually preached was that we are all "God". But the masses couldn't understand that. So their minds twisted what he said about them all being "God" to HE was "God". The masses completely destroyed Jesus's teachings and remade them into a form that they could understand.

or maybe similar concepts reflect....observations made on the basic principles and exsitence of this world.
Possible … but a lot of things are

That is what the masses believed. Did you know that Jesus was actually Jewish.That hew was a rabbi. What Jesus actually preached was that we are all "God". But the masses couldn't understand that. So their minds twisted what he said about them all being "God" to HE was "God". The masses completely destroyed Jesus's teachings and remade them into a form that they could understand.


and you know this because...? im not trying to argue, just wondering where this is coming from, i'd heard this before, but i don't remember.

That is what the masses believed. Did you know that Jesus was actually Jewish.That hew was a rabbi. What Jesus actually preached was that we are all "God". But the masses couldn't understand that. So their minds twisted what he said about them all being "God" to HE was "God". The masses completely destroyed Jesus's teachings and remade them into a form that they could understand.

Could you further explain that please. I just need clarification on that and where this information came from.

i thought that the generilization is the point....we have to believe in something. yes it is generalized because that's the way it is for everyone...its the way we were created (if you believe we were created)
Generalization is a method (one method) our minds use to categorize, to order the universe around us. It is not an end, but a means to an end. It is not "the way we were created," but rather a means we have developed towards understanding.

What is the point you are trying to make? Just "we have to believe in something"? Fine, everyone does believe in something. What is it that is "the way it is for everyone..."? Everyone believes something different, and in different ways, just as we do things in different ways. Some people will multiply 32*6 in their heads; others will do 30*6 plus 2*6, numbers they can handle without problem; still others have to write it down to do it at all.

Generalization is a tool to organize the world, what we see of it, but it is not the reality of the world. The reality is unique-case --everything is unique case. Cows move in herds, but herds are made of individuals. We are individuals. Every time you look at the world, and time has passed, it is a different, unique view. In reality, things are constantly in flux. Generalizations have their purpose, but they do not apply to the individual.

Sorry, I probably missed your point, and I seem to be rambling furter astray.

the whole thing is that God is One entity....but, he is also a trinity. he put himself into human form, because humanity required a perfect sacrifice to redeem us.

Why did humanity need a perfect sacrifice to redeem them? If "God" wanted us redeemed why did he need a sacrifice? Couldn't just have said "You are all redeemed of all your crimes." It would have been a huge time saver and a lot easier.

Generalization is a method (one method) our minds use to categorize, to order the universe around us. It is not an end, but a means to an end. It is not "the way we were created," but rather a means we have developed towards understanding.

What is the point you are trying to make? Just "we have to believe in something"? Fine, everyone does believe in something. What is it that is "the way it is for everyone..."? Everyone believes something different, and in different ways, just as we do things in different ways. Some people will multiply 32*6 in their heads; others will do 30*6 plus 2*6, numbers they can handle without problem; still others have to write it down to do it at all.

Generalization is a tool to organize the world, what we see of it, but it is not the reality of the world. The reality is unique-case --everything is unique case. Cows move in herds, but herds are made of individuals. We are individuals. Every time you look at the world, and time has passed, it is a different, unique view. In reality, things are constantly in flux. Generalizations have their purpose, but they do not apply to the individual.



Sorry, I probably missed your point, and I seem to be rambling furter astray.

no need to be sorry. and no. this whole post thingie is rather rambly i think :P

Why did humanity need a perfect sacrifice to redeem them? If "God" wanted us redeemed why did he need a sacrifice? Couldn't just have said "You are all redeemed of all your crimes." It would have been a huge time saver and a lot easier.
Not to mention a lot less apparently blood thirsty … if he needed a demonstration I am sure an omni potent being could come up with a better one then torturing and killing a man (his son) for the world to see. Being all powerful why require blood spilt?

and you know this because...? im not trying to argue, just wondering where this is coming from, i'd heard this before, but i don't remember.

Many historians have said these things. They are also told in books about Jesus. One book called A Brief History of Everything by Kent Wilbur explains much of what i talk about. You should read it sometime it is truly quite interesting.

Why did humanity need a perfect sacrifice to redeem them? If "God" wanted us redeemed why did he need a sacrifice? Couldn't just have said "You are all redeemed of all your crimes." It would have been a huge time saver and a lot easier.


probably. i don't understand it all. and i think that's part of the point. God doesn't want us to be forced on anything. he wants us to choose. and part of that choosing, is accepting what he tells us in his word. he wants us to have faith in him. if we understood it all, then there'd be no reason for faith.

probably. i don't understand it all. and i think that's part of the point. God doesn't want us to be forced on anything. he wants us to choose. and part of that choosing, is accepting what he tells us in his word. he wants us to have faith in him. if we understood it all, then there'd be no reason for faith.


this doesn't mean however that i stop trying to understand. there's nothing wrong with that. but i choose to accept it.

Jesus was/is God incarnate.

yes, Jesus was God in flesh. The holy spirit is God in spirit.

It's probably easiest to think of it like this:

God is H2O

Ice = Father
Water = Son
Steam = Holy Spirit

All are God.

Why did humanity need a perfect sacrifice to redeem them? If "God" wanted us redeemed why did he need a sacrifice? Couldn't just have said "You are all redeemed of all your crimes." It would have been a huge time saver and a lot easier.

It was necessary because of Gods character. He is holy and righteous and all violations of his character must be paid for with death. As a result there can be no forgiveness without payment

this doesn't mean however that i stop trying to understand. there's nothing wrong with that. but i choose to accept it.

we'll never understand everything, at least until we're with Jesus in paradise... this is in Scripture in the latter half of 1 Corinthians 13

[QUOTE=Haddess]


i had it explained to me this way once.....a woman can be a mother, a wife, and say, a teacher if that were her profession, but she is still one person....does that make sense at all?

Yes it does but it does not tell WHAT the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are. They are all different personalities of "God" correct? If so what is each personality. The Father is what exactly. His innate desire to help the human race or is it his desire to nurtrue us to his ideals. Is the Son then just his human form. And what is the Holy Ghost. That is the part that most confuses me.

probably. i don't understand it all. and i think that's part of the point. God doesn't want us to be forced on anything. he wants us to choose. and part of that choosing, is accepting what he tells us in his word. he wants us to have faith in him. if we understood it all, then there'd be no reason for faith.
That's the true meaning of "blind faith." It's not just that you believe in what is not understood, but that you deliberately do not question.

this doesn't mean however that i stop trying to understand. there's nothing wrong with that. but i choose to accept it.
Saw your qualifier after.

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

Yes it does but it does not tell WHAT the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are. They are all different personalities of "God" correct? If so what is each personality. The Father is what exactly. His innate desire to help the human race or is it his desire to nurtrue us to his ideals. Is the Son then just his human form. And what is the Holy Ghost. That is the part that most confuses me.


the holy ghost is the part of God that he gives to us to help guide us and be with us. the holy ghost is God's gift to us. what about the holy spirit do you not understand. ill explain if you wish...(to the best of my ability of course)

That's the true meaning of "blind faith." It's not just that you believe in what is not understood, but that you deliberately do not question.


i think we're allowed to question.....to try and understand, or reach some kind of peace if we can't understand it...i think God can help us understand as much as we can comprehend. but it requires study...and uderstanding...real understanding of his word and of his nature.

It was necessary because of Gods character. He is holy and righteous and all violations of his character must be paid for with death. As a result there can be no forgiveness without payment

That sounds mean. You have done what i told you not to do and therefore you must die to redeem yourself. Can i say harsh. Also why does he need a payment to forgive. When i forgive it is not because they did something for me it is because i have thought about what they did and realized that it is either not a big deal and everyone would be happier if i forgave them or it wasn't truly their fault.

[QUOTE=Haddess]


the holy ghost is the part of God that he gives to us to help guide us and be with us. the holy ghost is God's gift to us. what about the holy spirit do you not understand. ill explain if you wish...(to the best of my ability of course)

But i thought that was the Father. If that is the Holy Ghost then what is the Father.

Not to mention a lot less apparently blood thirsty … if he needed a demonstration I am sure an omni potent being could come up with a better one then torturing and killing a man (his son) for the world to see. Being all powerful why require blood spilt?

God did not torture and kill his son... It was humans who rejected him as the son of god who did that. Also, Jesus had the choice of going through with it or not, and he did because of his love for us.

That sounds mean. You have done what i told you not to do and therefore you must die to redeem yourself. Can i say harsh. Also why does he need a payment to forgive. When i forgive it is not because they did something for me it is because i have thought about what they did and realized that it is either not a big deal and everyone would be happier if i forgave them or it wasn't truly their fault.


bottom line : God is merciful he forgives. he sees sin, every sin, as an equal offense, my lying to you would be the same as stabbing you to death in his eyes. because god is perfect all sin completely repules him and that creates a barrier between us and him. he desires that we be close to him. so he forgives.

That sounds mean. You have done what i told you not to do and therefore you must die to redeem yourself. Can i say harsh. Also why does he need a payment to forgive. When i forgive it is not because they did something for me it is because i have thought about what they did and realized that it is either not a big deal and everyone would be happier if i forgave them or it wasn't truly their fault.

That is because you havent had the entire world's evil to forgive. It's a bit different then someone who stole your cupcake.

That sounds mean. You have done what i told you not to do and therefore you must die to redeem yourself. Can i say harsh. Also why does he need a payment to forgive. When i forgive it is not because they did something for me it is because i have thought about what they did and realized that it is either not a big deal and everyone would be happier if i forgave them or it wasn't truly their fault.

Its might be considered mean and harsh but you also have to consider the fact that (if you follow christianity) God was loving enough to give his own son as payment for the sins of others. Paul called it "the wisdom of God and the power of God". By using the crucifixion of his son, God made a way to accept sinful people without compromising his sinless character.

( I'd just like to point out at this point that I myself am not christian)

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

But i thought that was the Father. If that is the Holy Ghost then what is the Father.

the father gives us all part of himself in the form of the holy spirit....its hard to really undrstand, but ....they are also exactly the same thing. they (all three) are one.

im sorry, but this is one of the things that i plan to ask God to explain to me when i see him.

probably. i don't understand it all. and i think that's part of the point. God doesn't want us to be forced on anything. he wants us to choose. and part of that choosing, is accepting what he tells us in his word. he wants us to have faith in him. if we understood it all, then there'd be no reason for faith.
Except in the OT … then he just smited whole cities or got pissed and flooded everything and killed off those that did not follow him

Lovely free choice

God did not torture and kill his son... It was humans who rejected him as the son of god who did that. Also, Jesus had the choice of going through with it or not, and he did because of his love for us.

But "God" wanted his son to be tortured and killed. If we had accepted him and not killed him that would have defeated the purpose. Jesus was supposed to die. Because only in his death could the human race be redeemed. So technically "God" did torture and kill his son because (all though there is no way to prove this) he probally told us that he was a sinner or some such thing and must die.

Its might be considered mean and harsh but you also have to consider the fact that (if you follow christianity) God was loving enough to give his own son as payment for the sins of others. Paul called it "the wisdom of God and the power of God". By using the crucifixion of his son, God made a way to accept sinful people without compromising his sinless character.

( I'd just like to point out at this point that I myself am not christian)


just wondering, if i may ask...are you religous? what religon if so?

if you don't want to say thats fine, lol, im probably being too nosey anyway :D

God did not torture and kill his son... It was humans who rejected him as the son of god who did that. Also, Jesus had the choice of going through with it or not, and he did because of his love for us.
The whole reason Jesus was created and sent to earth was to die … god knew it and he purposely put his son in a location and a time when he absolutely KNEW the kid was going to die

That’s like me sinking my baby to the bottom of the bathtub with full knowledge of what was going to happen but then blaming the water for doing what I knew it would do.

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

Yes it does but it does not tell WHAT the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are. They are all different personalities of "God" correct? If so what is each personality. The Father is what exactly. His innate desire to help the human race or is it his desire to nurtrue us to his ideals. Is the Son then just his human form. And what is the Holy Ghost. That is the part that most confuses me.

Jesus was always there:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus is the Word

As for the Holy Spirit, Jesus said to the disciples that he'd be sending the Holy Spirit to help them. (i forget wexactly where or when, but it was after his resurrection and before he went up to heaven).

Except in the OT … then he just smited whole cities or got pissed and flooded everything and killed off those that did not follow him

Lovely free choice


i also don't know what kinds of warnings they were sent....God did send Jonah to one such city....maybe he sent others to those cities. i also wasn't thers, and am not God. :P

just wondering, if i may ask...are you religous? what religon if so?

if you don't want to say thats fine, lol, im probably being too nosey anyway :D

I was brought up as a bad weather presbyterian but at the moment although i dont consider myself christian (cant get the believing part sorted) I am trying to find out more about christianity as well as other religions so I can make a better choice about how i want to live my life i.e. if i am to be atheist, agnostic or a follower of a certain religion

[QUOTE=Haddess]

the father gives us all part of himself in the form of the holy spirit....its hard to really undrstand, but ....they are also exactly the same thing. they (all three) are one.

im sorry, but this is one of the things that i plan to ask God to explain to me when i see him.


So if all three parts of the trinity say the same thing, why is there a trinity? Why not simply state the nature of "God" and leave it at that? Why create three seperate but completely identical things to explain the unexplainanble

The whole reason Jesus was created and sent to earth was to die … god knew it and he purposely put his son in a location and a time when he absolutely KNEW the kid was going to die

That’s like me sinking my baby to the bottom of the bathtub with full knowledge of what was going to happen but then blaming the water for doing what I knew it would do.

You are assuming that JEsus is not God. Basically, God sent.Himself to die (he didn't really die only his body died)

[QUOTE=Haddess]

the father gives us all part of himself in the form of the holy spirit....its hard to really undrstand, but ....they are also exactly the same thing. they (all three) are one.

im sorry, but this is one of the things that i plan to ask God to explain to me when i see him.


So if all three parts of the trinity say the same thing, why is there a trinity? Why not simply state the nature of "God" and leave it at that? Why create three seperate but completely identical things to explain the unexplainanble?

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]


So if all three parts of the trinity say the same thing, why is there a trinity? Why not simply state the nature of "God" and leave it at that? Why create three seperate but completely identical things to explain the unexplainanble


why was dirt made brown instead of orange?

i simply don't know why God made things the way he did.

i also don't know what kinds of warnings they were sent....God did send Jonah to one such city....maybe he sent others to those cities. i also wasn't thers, and am not God. :P
I don’t expect you to know everything but this attitude change between OT do as I say or you get smacked sort of god and the kinder NT personality of god “live your life you will be judged later” sort of feeling really does not improve my faith on the bible as an accurate descriptor of what or who god is

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]


So if all three parts of the trinity say the same thing, why is there a trinity? Why not simply state the nature of "God" and leave it at that? Why create three seperate but completely identical things to explain the unexplainanble?

Again i might be wrong but I always thought that the reason the Trinity existed was so that Gods presence could be shown to people in ways that they would be able to comprehend. Feel free to correct me as i'd like to refine this thinking

You are assuming that JEsus is not God. Basically, God sent.Himself to die (he didn't really die only his body died)\

But Jesus is NOT "God". He is the SON OF "GOD" So "God" did send his son to die. He purposely sent him there to die. The baby and the water is perfect analogy.

The whole reason Jesus was created and sent to earth was to die … god knew it and he purposely put his son in a location and a time when he absolutely KNEW the kid was going to die

That’s like me sinking my baby to the bottom of the bathtub with full knowledge of what was going to happen but then blaming the water for doing what I knew it would do.

well here's the thing:

Jesus was sent to carry the sins of the world... he died because God sent him to, to fulfill Old Testament prophecy and to, as stated above, give us a way to avoid hell. Along the way he also taught us a great deal about how we should live.

At the same time, while Jesus knew he was there to die, he didn't want to. Who would want to be crucified? Yet, he allowed himself to sit on that cross for hours on end, in agony, for you and me, to do the will of the Father. "Not my will, but thy will" comes from Jesus' ordeal.

I don’t expect you to know everything but this attitude change between OT do as I say or you get smacked sort of god and the kinder NT personality of god “live your life you will be judged later” sort of feeling really does not improve my faith on the bible as an accurate descriptor of what or who god is

Yeah i agree with you on this. It was always one of my biggest stumbling blocks

You are assuming that JEsus is not God. Basically, God sent.Himself to die (he didn't really die only his body died)
No for analogy purposes there is no easy way to do the separate but one thing in the real world and still get a fairly close analogy (in this case)
He required pain and suffering from himself then either way god is as much to blame as what ever humans committed the act god set them and himself up for

I don’t expect you to know everything but this attitude change between OT do as I say or you get smacked sort of god and the kinder NT personality of god “live your life you will be judged later” sort of feeling really does not improve my faith on the bible as an accurate descriptor of what or who god is


yeah, i understand. then maybe that's the whole faith thing. Believing, choosing actively to trust that God has a reason for everything.

\

But Jesus is NOT "God". He is the SON OF "GOD" So "God" did send his son to die. He purposely sent him there to die. The baby and the water is perfect analogy.

Jesus is God, in one of God's phases. That's the best way to explain it and remain true to Scripture.

\

But Jesus is NOT "God". He is the SON OF "GOD" So "God" did send his son to die. He purposely sent him there to die. The baby and the water is perfect analogy.

Jesus is simply God in the flesh. If i were to put my spirit into someone elses body it would still be me

yeah, i understand. then maybe that's the whole faith thing. Believing, choosing actively to trust that God has a reason for everything.
Exactly in the end it comes down to faith
Does this god … or this description of him “feel” right to you … does it fulfill what you need. In the end it comes down to that faith that what you think of it is right and that is fine

But I don’t get that same “right” feeling from the Christian god … nor from the bible
And there is where our fundamental axioms shift … the Christian god without this sense of rightness and with no other real proof does just not lend itself to be being ABLE to have faith in it

I can go through the actions but in the end if your description of god does not feel right I ultimately can not have true faith in it.

Its might be considered mean and harsh but you also have to consider the fact that (if you follow christianity) God was loving enough to give his own son as payment for the sins of others. Paul called it "the wisdom of God and the power of God". By using the crucifixion of his son, God made a way to accept sinful people without compromising his sinless character.

( I'd just like to point out at this point that I myself am not christian)

You people keep on insisting that "God" is perfect. That he can make no mistake. Now i don't know if you realize this but "God" created original sin. That in itself should be the greatest sin of all. Would it not be so that sent Jesus to earth not to redeem us but to prove to himself that we are more sinful than he. Would it not be that Jesus died not to save us but to make "God" feel better about himself.

Yeah i agree with you on this. It was always one of my biggest stumbling blocks
Such is life when men come to play in recording things (getting better at it though … accurate recording of data lol)

Exactly in the end it comes down to faith
Does this god … or this description of him “feel” right to you … does it fulfill what you need. In the end it comes down to that faith that what you think of it is right and that is fine

But I don’t get that same “right” feeling from the Christian god … nor from the bible
And there is where our fundamental axioms shift … the Christian god without this sense of rightness and with no other real proof does just not lend itself to be being ABLE to have faith in it

I can go through the actions but in the end if your description of god does not feel right I ultimately can not have true faith in it.

And that's a God-given choice. Im sorry that you don't feel as i do, but who can argue? its up to you. :)
but i do of course hope that someday you do understand.

Jesus is God, in one of God's phases. That's the best way to explain it and remain true to Scripture.


Explain it to me and not stay true to Scripture.

You people keep on insisting that "God" is perfect. That he can make no mistake. Now i don't know if you realize this but "God" created original sin. That in itself should be the greatest sin of all. Would it not be so that sent Jesus to earth not to redeem us but to prove to himself that we are more sinful than he. Would it not be that Jesus died not to save us but to make "God" feel better about himself.

Its an interesting thought but not one that I have enough information to argue properly. It could be said that God chose to give humans free will and as a result it is the fault of humanity that we are not perfect. This argument however has way too many holes in it. I'll have to think about this. Thanks for the thoughts

And that's a God-given choice. Im sorry that you don't feel as i do, but who can argue? its up to you. :)
but i do of course hope that someday you do understand.
Unless there is a fundamental shift in me it is NOT a choice … FAITH is not a choice not truly … actions are a choice but faith is how you accept various datum’s

And that’s my fundamental separation from the Christian church … I believe god is more loving then that if he exists … and that salvation wont be based on faith alone but on his understanding of us and who we really are . in my personal opinion anything else is not all loving and does not deserve worship by me

And that's a God-given choice. Im sorry that you don't feel as i do, but who can argue? its up to you. :)
but i do of course hope that someday you do understand.

Understand what. Understand your beliefs. You are simply trying to make others believe as you do.

You people keep on insisting that "God" is perfect. That he can make no mistake. Now i don't know if you realize this but "God" created original sin. That in itself should be the greatest sin of all. Would it not be so that sent Jesus to earth not to redeem us but to prove to himself that we are more sinful than he. Would it not be that Jesus died not to save us but to make "God" feel better about himself.
"Sin" is not a thing, except in an abstract sense --"dark" and "cold" are similarly only abstract things. Dark is the absence of light, cold the absence of heat, and sin is described as "the absence of god" or "turning away from god". The analogy that has never made sense to me, but working with it... that would mean that, sensing god's physical presence, man keeps on the straight and narrow; and those who have "sinned" are not aware of that presence, or ignore it. God did not create original sin; rather, our rejecting the sense of him does.

I have heard it said by Christians (young ones, perhaps) that God made a "mistake" and sent Jesus to correct it. The mistake, then, would be in allowing us to turn away (free will).

Understand what. Understand your beliefs. You are simply trying to make others believe as you do.


i am trying to explain what i believ so that maybe others can understand. How can i remain silent about my faith when God has blessed me so much? Yes, i want everyone in the world to understand the peace that i feel. and the comfort that comes from my God. He loves his children and he loves me. I want everyone to feel this love. of course i can't make you. but yes. im trying to make others understand. you might as well tell me not to breathe.

Why dont you go to church :headbang: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: :eek:

You people keep on insisting that "God" is perfect. That he can make no mistake. Now i don't know if you realize this but "God" created original sin. That in itself should be the greatest sin of all. Would it not be so that sent Jesus to earth not to redeem us but to prove to himself that we are more sinful than he. Would it not be that Jesus died not to save us but to make "God" feel better about himself.

God created man and woman... they created original sin by following Satan. So I guess indirectly, God created it, but they made the choices that brought it into being.

Why dont you go to church :headbang: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: :eek:
Because there, we would get a much more limited point of view.

Why dont you go to church :headbang: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: :eek:
You want my honest reasoning (doubtful) besides my lack of faith the fact that I was molested by my priest in a church makes it rather hard for me to enter thus for stated location (doubt you were looking for a honest answer but I gave you one anyways)

I was not trying to drive you away but this is a debate forum .. there is almost no statement you can ever make on this whole board that wont lead to some sort of debate. That’s what this whole general forum is about, if you like debate or want to talk about it fine you are more then welcome to stay
Even if you don’t you are more then welcome to stay, but you will have to expect debate … that’s just how it works around here.

Actually, I'd like to thank you for your measured response. As stated, however, this is not a subject I care to debate for several reasons. One, because I have no cause to which I'm trying to convert anyone. Also, when one reaches a point to where one is convinced of the truth of a certain matter, it seems silly to discuss alternatives which one knows are not true. However, my brief "fling" into this debate was interesting to me, if only to reveal how many crackpots exist in the world. And yes, I'm probably one of them. ;)

UpwardThrust i have another "God" theory for you. What if "God" is the Universe and we are simply parts of the Universe trying to understand itself.

UpwardThrust i have another "God" theory for you. What if "God" is the Universe and we are simply parts of the Universe trying to understand itself.
The universe as god … I have seen this very well argued as it fulfills all the necessities of a deity … though usually see this argument more in the “creation” threads

Actually, I'd like to thank you for your measured response. As stated, however, this is not a subject I care to debate for several reasons. One, because I have no cause to which I'm trying to convert anyone. Also, when one reaches a point to where one is convinced of the truth of a certain matter, it seems silly to discuss alternatives which one knows are not true. However, my brief "fling" into this debate was interesting to me, if only to reveal how many crackpots exist in the world. And yes, I'm probably one of them. ;)
We are all probably among those crackpots :) and yes even though I myself think I have found the best theory I can prove and fits with my feelings I still like to argue … about just about anything lol

"Sin" is not a thing, except in an abstract sense --"dark" and "cold" are similarly only abstract things. Dark is the absence of light, cold the absence of heat, and sin is described as "the absence of god" or "turning away from god". The analogy that has never made sense to me, but working with it... that would mean that, sensing god's physical presence, man keeps on the straight and narrow; and those who have "sinned" are not aware of that presence, or ignore it. God did not create original sin; rather, our rejecting the sense of him does.

I have heard it said by Christians (young ones, perhaps) that God made a "mistake" and sent Jesus to correct it. The mistake, then, would be in allowing us to turn away (free will).

I will clarify on how "God" created original sin. "God" created the Garden of Eden correct? He also created Adam and Eve. He gave Adam and Eve curiosity. He then but the Tree of Knowlage in the Garden and told them not to eat its fruit. Adam and Eve's natural curiosity (which "God" gave them) took over and they began to wonder why "God" told not to eat the tree's fruit and what would happen if they did. Then "God" allowed the "Devil" into the Garden and allowed him to convince Eve to eat the fruit working off of her curiosity which "God" gave her.Eve ate the fruit and you all know what happened next. But do you see my point?

I will clarify on how "God" created original sin. "God" created the Garden of Eden correct? He also created Adam and Eve. He gave Adam and Eve curiosity. He then but the Tree of Knowlage in the Garden and told them not to eat its fruit. Adam and Eve's natural curiosity (which "God" gave them) took over and they began to wonder why "God" told not to eat the tree's fruit and what would happen if they did. Then "God" allowed the "Devil" into the Garden and allowed him to convince Eve to eat the fruit working off of her curiosity which "God" gave her.Eve ate the fruit and you all know what happened next. But do you see my point?
Not to mention the fact that without the knowledge of good and evil they did not know it was GOOD to follow gods directions but BAD to follow those of the serpent

How do you reasonably expect someone to follow your directions when they don’t even know they are supposed to listen to you

i am trying to explain what i believ so that maybe others can understand. How can i remain silent about my faith when God has blessed me so much? Yes, i want everyone in the world to understand the peace that i feel. and the comfort that comes from my God. He loves his children and he loves me. I want everyone to feel this love. of course i can't make you. but yes. im trying to make others understand. you might as well tell me not to breathe.

The comfort that comes from your "God". Are you saying that there are multiple "Gods" and that yours is the only one that offers peace and love. I am also not telling you to stop telling people your beliefs I just want you to think and tell me truthfully are you doing this because you feel the need to go around telling your beliefs simply because you want them to understand your beliefs or is it because you want them to hold your beliefs? Ask you that question and then tell me your answer.

I will clarify on how "God" created original sin. "God" created the Garden of Eden correct? He also created Adam and Eve. He gave Adam and Eve curiosity. He then but the Tree of Knowlage in the Garden and told them not to eat its fruit. Adam and Eve's natural curiosity (which "God" gave them) took over and they began to wonder why "God" told not to eat the tree's fruit and what would happen if they did. Then "God" allowed the "Devil" into the Garden and allowed him to convince Eve to eat the fruit working off of her curiosity which "God" gave her.Eve ate the fruit and you all know what happened next. But do you see my point?
First off, the whole idea of Christianity and "free will" is that we have a mind of our own. That means we "will" things on our own, and have a "curiosity" all our own, and we "sin" all on our own. God did not make these things; they are "natural" (as you yourself fell back on).

("Natural" and "god-made" are not one and the same, just as "man-made" (artificial) is something else entirely. Natural things are made without intent; god-made are made with god's intent; and man-made are made with man's intent. If you want to get into "design" and predestination, that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

God did not "allow" the devil into the garden; the serpent was there all along, a part of the creation of the garden. However, I know your point quite well. (Grave_n_idle makes the best case for it.) If anything, God looks like he made a big "Oops" in Genesis, when he came home to find his humans running amok with knowledge. He could not have punished them if they did not have minds of their own. God has no domain over the human mind. We have free will.

The comfort that comes from your "God". Are you saying that there are multiple "Gods" and that yours is the only one that offers peace and love. I am also not telling you to stop telling people your beliefs I just want you to think and tell me truthfully are you doing this because you feel the need to go around telling your beliefs simply because you want them to understand your beliefs or is it because you want them to hold your beliefs? Ask you that question and then tell me your answer.

For the first part,(I'm assuming he comes from the belif in a christian God), Christianity is the only religion where men don't have to do anything to enter heaven except believe. all the other religions muslims,hindus,buddists,ect.,have you entering heaven by works.

For the second part i would be telling my beliefs because i want people to be forgiven and got to heaven rather then suffer in hell.

First off, the whole idea of Christianity and "free will" is that we have a mind of our own. That means we "will" things on our own, and have a "curiosity" all our own, and we "sin" all on our own. God did not make these things; they are "natural" (as you yourself fell back on).

("Natural" and "god-made" are not one and the same, just as "man-made" (artificial) is something else entirely. Natural things are made without intent; god-made are made with god's intent; and man-made are made with man's intent. If you want to get into "design" and predestination, that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

God did not "allow" the devil into the garden; the serpent was there all along, a part of the creation of the garden. However, I know your point quite well. (Grave_n_idle makes the best case for it.) If anything, God looks like he made a big "Oops" in Genesis, when he came home to find his humans running amok with knowledge. He could not have punished them if they did not have minds of their own. God has no domain over the human mind. We have free will.

I can tell that you don't believe in the creation theory. The theory that i posted was meant for those who do.For those who do believe in the creaton theory "God" created everything which would mean that he created human curiosity. What you say makes sense to me. I believe in natural and man-made. I am an atheist so i dont believe in "God"- made but for this purpose lets say i do. But to those who believe in the all powerful "God" what you say makes no sense.

I believe in free will. Free will is the ability to make ones own descions. Those descions are influenced by outside sources but in the end they are our descions.

I would also like to point out that i am the kind of person who instantly brainstroms and expands on ideas. I then share my ideas. This theory i made is simply one of my brainstorms. I do not mean to offend anyone.

Apparently so.

but since the whole story is concocted, there isn't any hell any more than there is a real Funky Town.

I can't believe what I'm reading here. What sacrilege! What heresy! No Funky Town indeed. Hmmmph!

I can tell that you don't believe in the creation theory. The theory that i posted was meant for those who do.For those who do believe in the creaton theory "God" created everything which would mean that he created human curiosity. What you say makes sense to me. I believe in natural and man-made. I am an atheist so i dont believe in "God"- made but for this purpose lets say i do. But to those who believe in the all powerful "God" what you say makes no sense.

I believe in free will. Free will is the ability to make ones own descions. Those descions are influenced by outside sources but in the end they are our descions.

I would also like to point out that i am the kind of person who instantly brainstroms and expands on ideas. I then share my ideas. This theory i made is simply one of my brainstorms. I do not mean to offend anyone.
You misunderstand me. I was arguing as from a Christian perspective --we have free will, and minds of our own, and God did not create them. That is how we can have sin.

Prayer itself isn't banned. You can pray privately if you desire, but what is banned is forcing everyone to pray one way, or even forcing them to pray at all.
If that was all the anti religion secularists wanted, there would not be a conflict cause Christians don't force others to pray against there will. What the conflict comes is when the secularists say "we don't believe in prayer and we are going to make a law banning you from praying too."

To ban voluntarily prayer from public places, is a violation of religious freedom. Religion essentially being a public thing in nature. There fore the government has not the authority to restrict it to a private closet just because someone else does not want too see you on a street corner doing your prayer.

If you don't want to pray, that's fine, but you cannot prohibit someone else from doing so if he so chooses.

That is the real reason for the conflict over public prayers. No one has ever forced another person to pray in a public place. Rather, people who were praying in a public place have been subject to harrassment on account of their religion. And that is just as great a violation of religious freedom as forcing someone to engage in prayer.
The US Constitution is clear that you can neither promote nor restrict the right to freedom of religious expression.

That is the real reason for the conflict over public prayers. No one has ever forced another person to pray in a public place. Rather, people who were praying in a public place have been subject to harrassment on account of their religion. And that is just as great a violation of religious freedom as forcing someone to engage in prayer.
The US Constitution is clear that you can neither promote nor restrict the right to freedom of religious expression.
Forced to pray in a public place (http://www.theinsite.org/justice/fr_auto.html?http://www.theinsite.org/justice/judge03.html)

Forced to pray in a public place (http://www.theinsite.org/justice/fr_auto.html?http://www.theinsite.org/justice/judge03.html)

To be fair, I don't agree with the court's decision there. While they shouldn't have been forcing kids to learn specific prayers, a moment of silence is entirely within secular bounds because, at the very least, it can be used as a moment of rest. Perhaps even inward reflection. No one says it needs to be prayer.

Of course, including that as a law might be pushing it, so who knows, maybe I do agree.

You are correct that it is an advantage to be able to organize people like that. It does increase ones possibility for survivial. But we do not pass on this "religious gene" we are told over and over and over again at a very young age before we can formulate our own ideas about these things.

I also never said that it wasn't an advantage.
Actually it is part of the human DNA structure and as such it is passed from generation to generation.

THough athiests don't seek God, they do seek out other things bigger than themselves:
examples:
Cosmology
Geology
and other fields where secular and athiest scientist have proved that the existence of things greater than themselves and which they admire because those things are so grand.

BTW, by saying that you and everyone else is "god" you realize you are an example of anti christ? cause that is what a lot of the anti christs claim.

I'm sorry to hear that. Still, that's something that might change with time. I didn't believe in God either at one time, but, fortunately, he believed in me.
Isn't it generally more important for god to believe in us than the other way round?

"Christianity: 2.1 billion" [snip] Most of that 2.1 billion are actually people who use the christian label because in society, being called a christian is viewed as giving one perks.
Well in some countries one of the perks is paying church tax ...

About the rest of your rather judgmental post:
You see only what is around you (probably North America). The majority of Christians live in South america, Asia and Africa. Let me tell you, they take their faith very seriously. So I would guess that probably at least 1.9 billion could be classified as practising christians.

They might sin (which is part of life) and not practise in a way you approve of, but that's just tough. Fortunately you won't be standing at the pearly gates judging who is worth to be let in.

Therefore go, battle your own demons and don't try to belittle the faith of others.

Well in some countries one of the perks is paying church tax ...

About the rest of your rather judgmental post:
You see only what is around you (probably North America). The majority of Christians live in South america, Asia and Africa. Let me tell you, they take their faith very seriously. So I would guess that probably at least 1.9 billion could be classified as practising christians.

They might sin (which is part of life) and not practise in a way you approve of, but that's just tough. Fortunately you won't be standing at the pearly gates judging who is worth to be let in.

Therefore go, battle your own demons and don't try to belittle the faith of others.


I apologize in advance for the accusory tone of this post, but my problem with christianity is not its message, per se, but the hippocracy it creates.

This post above me is a christian, deriding another poster, and telling him not to be "judgemental", when clearly, this person has made up his mind about the other, and also even assuming where he lives.

Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself, eh?

I apologize in advance for the accusory tone of this post, but my problem with christianity is not its message, per se, but the hippocracy it creates.

This post above me is a christian, deriding another poster, and telling him not to be "judgemental", when clearly, this person has made up his mind about the other, and also even assuming where he lives.
He, this is a debate, so no need to apologize :) ... but

Assuming where he/she lives? No problem, because there are only two places where Shangia's observation could be remotely true: North Europe and North America. From her/his other posts it is clear that he/she's not from Europe.

Calling another post judgmental is judgemental? That is, of course a true statement. But calling the majority of 2.1 christians (most of them not members her able to defend themselves) pseudo-christians is, I think, a tad more judgmental than calling said poster judgemental.

I think, however, that not attributing anything to the discussion before and then criticising a poster (who did contribute) for criticising another poster (who also did contribute) very hypocritical, indeed.

Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself, eh?
Kudos to you for knowing your bible, as to unearth this seldomly heard piece of wisdom ;) If you had read any of my previous posts, you knew that said text for me provides guidelines not rules. But even if I took the bible as my absolute set of rules, my opinion is that if you break'em, do so good and hard ;)

You'll bet your eternal future on the whole thing being nothing but an invented myth?


not my entire future. just the part after i'm dead. :)

You don't comprehend what I was saying. The people who spoke teh Aramaic tongue did not know how to read or write. That is why nothing was written in their language. To write in your language, you have to know how to write in the first place.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. Are you saying he was illiterate?

Jesus spoke Aramaic. Are you saying he was illiterate?
Not to mention the apostles … wonder how they managed to record anything lol

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

God didn't change his mind... the plan all along was to send himself in the form of Jesus. Obviously there were people righteous in God who lived before Jesus came, and God has made an allowance for them.

Those who were true to His laws/commands in Old Testament times will be/are in heaven.... people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others who were true to God. Not all of Israel/Judah followed God... at some points in history there was wide-spread worship of idols, for instance.

Not to mention the apostles … wonder how they managed to record anything lol

They don't know much about Judaism then. The Jews were the most literate people in the world besides the middle class and higher Greeks and Romans, and their culture encouraged learning how to read so that they could understand what the believed.

If your really interested, here's only one collection of Aramaic texts (I won't be hurt if you don't look at it :p )

http://s91279732.onlinehome.us/reference/CALTexts.htm

Not to mention the apostles … wonder how they managed to record anything lol

I would imagine that, as learned/brilliant as Jesus was, that he was able to write in Greek or Latin or Hebrew, or all of them. Same goes for some, if not all, of the disciples.

You don't get saved for the religion that you believe. You get saved for believing only one statement: that Jesus, as God, came to Earth to die for your sins. Ta-da. You're saved. Everything else is negotiable. The odds are actually far better.

This is the most disturbing to me.

you are saying that predatory pedophilia won't rule you out of heaven, nor will murder , nor will breaking all of the ten commandments.

So the vilest people on earth can go to heaven if they believe that one simple statement?

That's just WRONG in my book.

THat makes god sound more like a Mafia boss. Here, kiss my as--, erm, ring, and i'll take care of you and the murders you commit in my name you will never need to pay for them.

So maybe being 'Saved' is being a "Made" man in the crime ring of God?

They don't know much about Judaism then. The Jews were the most literate people in the world besides the middle class and higher Greeks and Romans, and their culture encouraged learning how to read so that they could understand what the believed.

If your really interested, here's only one collection of Aramaic texts (I won't be hurt if you don't look at it :p )

http://s91279732.onlinehome.us/reference/CALTexts.htm
I have seen this page before :) I will browse it again just for you lol (grave_n_idle was our resident latin/greek/Hebrew/Aramaic reader/writer/speaker before he became rather inactive lol … he posted this at one time too lol)

This is the most disturbing to me.

you are saying that predatory pedophilia won't rule you out of heaven, nor will murder , nor will breaking all of the ten commandments.
So the vilest people on earth can go to heaven if they believe that one simple statement?
THat makes god sound more like a Mafia boss. Here, kiss my as--, erm, ring, and i'll take care of you and the murders you commit in my name you will never need to pay for them.
So maybe being 'Saved' is being a "Made" man in the crime ring of God?


Absolutely not. Works and moral living are equally (in my opinion more) necessary for salvation:

James 2:14-19
"14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. "

"18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder ."

"Why did God change his mind between the old and new testaments?"

God did not change his mind. Look in the old testament and it reveals God's plan to do what he did in the new testament. The new testament is the fulfillment of what God said, in the old testament, he was going to do.

I think you have revealed your true misunderstanding or ignorance of the Old Testament.

The OT describes a vengeful, jealous god who smited people and cities. 'If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out"
The NT talks about 'turning the other cheek' and forgiveness. This is a HUGE change in attitude.

I attribute the attitude change to the fact that Jesus, when he wandered off into the desert for seven years, he was studying with holy men of eastern religions, which are far more compassionate than the Judaic tradition.

Christianity ends up being a bastardized blend of Judaism and Taoism that creates logical fallacies out the yin-yang. (hehe)

This is the most disturbing to me.

you are saying that predatory pedophilia won't rule you out of heaven, nor will murder , nor will breaking all of the ten commandments.

So the vilest people on earth can go to heaven if they believe that one simple statement?

That's just WRONG in my book.

THat makes god sound more like a Mafia boss. Here, kiss my as--, erm, ring, and i'll take care of you and the murders you commit in my name you will never need to pay for them.

So maybe being 'Saved' is being a "Made" man in the crime ring of God?

a)It doesn't matter what you think in terms of judgment after death... we are not the judges ... we'll likely find out that moral relativism is not truth in God's eyes but a nifty little method we use to explain away sin.

b)Jesus' blood covers all sin, ALL SIN, for any who sincerly believe, repent of their sins, and follow him. That's it. That's his promise to us.

Real belief in Him and a real perseverance to follow his teaching can turn the most evil person you can imagine... can turn their life around.

Originally Posted by Dorksonia
"You have to remember that these sects are man-made, as all religions are. God didn't create them.
There is one God. Man's search to understand Him is religion. Since there is only one God, there is also only one truth, one true means of salvation..."


That is because mankind was made with the need for something to worship, admire, to seek something hire than himself. That is why the athiests and the secularists will never succeed in their attempts to eliminate religion from society.
Religion will always be here because man has a genetic need for it.
In fact, scientists are saying that there is a specific religion gene that causes people to seek something higher than themselves.


HAHAHAHAHAH. THAT IS RICH.

it's not a gene they found. it's a section of the brain. Some people have lesions in this part of the brain and their symptoms are visions of God and oversensitivity to pain and suffering. The believe many Saints may have suffered from this brain defect. Scientists can stimulate this part of the brain and cause 'spiritual experiences'.

Ancient men created caves that reverberated and amplified certain sound wavelengths. The people in the cave would have spiritual experiences when listening to that wavelength at that amplification. Scientists have recreated that sound and have duplicated the spiritual experience with it in a laboratory. It was this discovery that led to the discovery of the part of the brain involved in spiritual experience.

YOu need to be careful the facts you cite to 'prove' your cause, because they might just serve to the opposite effect.

Absolutely not. Works and moral living are equally (in my opinion more) necessary for salvation:

James 2:14-19
"14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. "

"18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder ."

and yet, there are John 3:15-16 and Romans 10:9-10 (main message), which tell us what you absolutely MUST do to be saved... and that is, you must believe:
---------
Romans 10: 8-13 (beginning in the middle of verse 8... this is Paul)

that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

---

John 3:14-17 (Jesus speaks here)

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


------------------------------

faith is the key to salvation. naturally, we are to try to follow Jesus' teachings, but we cannot be perfect... if you really believe and are intent on following, your works will show it. Faith is required for salvation. That much is certain.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. Are you saying he was illiterate?
Jesus never wrote anything down.
Paul was a roman citizen and wrote his stuff down in latin or greek.
Peter used a scribe who did likewise.

Christianity was spreading all over the place so they had to write in the universal language of the time which was latin/greek.

If these events happened in our time, the Bible would not be in hebrew or arabic, it would in english because english is the universal language of our time.

The reason being, that if you want to share your beliefs you have to present them in a language that everyone knows.

This is the most disturbing to me.

you are saying that predatory pedophilia won't rule you out of heaven, nor will murder , nor will breaking all of the ten commandments.

So the vilest people on earth can go to heaven if they believe that one simple statement?

That's just WRONG in my book.

I am pretty sure christ said "believe in me and you shall be saved"
I believe in him. He never seemed like the type to lie. And when i get to heaven im gonna kick his fathers lilly white ass. If he's an allknowing, allpowerfull god he could have done more. people are dying down here RIGHT NOW for him and he sit there allknowing. Alldoing would perhaps be better.

From a Christian viewpoint, we are born with Original Sin of Adam and Eve. If a baby dies before being baptised, it will go to Hell. From a Christian viewpoint, people who do not convert will go to Hell. Also, from the Bible directly, God is represented and shown to be jealous and wrathful. Hardly befitting a perfect being.

How wrong can you get? OK, some of it's right, like if God was jealous and wrathful then he wouldn't be a perfect being.

If a person dies without having had a chance to hear the "Good News", as those Christians call it, meaning they have had no chance of converting, they apparently go to this place which is like a waiting room. There, during the time before Judgement Day, they are told the Good News by Jesus anyway. He (Jesus) went there (the waiting-room type place) and told everyone during the three days he was clinically dead.

Hell is for people who do not convert to Christianity during neither their human-life nor waiting-room-type-life. In effect, people not with God and his plan to save everyone from Hell.

:) Yes you are. "God" is not perfect. There is no such thing as perfection. There is always or always will be something better. So since nothing is perfect that means "God" isn't perfect which means he can make mistakes. Which in turn means that he can be shown the error of his ways.

and i'm supposed to do WHAT to be in the good graces of this god who is no better than me?

dedicate my life to his illegitimate son?

this just keeps gettng better.

Jesus never wrote anything down.
Paul was a roman citizen and wrote his stuff down in latin or greek.
Peter used a scribe who did likewise.

Christianity was spreading all over the place so they had to write in the universal language of the time which was latin/greek.

If these events happened in our time, the Bible would not be in hebrew or arabic, it would in english because english is the universal language of our time.

The reason being, that if you want to share your beliefs you have to present them in a language that everyone knows.
As i heard it it went from greek to latin to greek to olde english to the book we have a dozen versions of today.
This seems to me the real reason it doesnt really make sense all the way through. ( Ever read a direct chinese translation of anything? jibberish)
When God handed it down it was pure. nowdays it barely resembles the original texts. It allmost isnt worth reading, accept there is no better option.
The things we believe today to be religious fact werent what christ and his generation believed.

and i'm supposed to do WHAT to be in the good graces of this god who is no better than me?

dedicate my life to his illegitimate son?

this just keeps gettng better.

fall to your knees

beg his forgiveness for your sins

realize that you are not worthy of Him

ask him to come into your heart/life

seek his will and try to do it


obviously, you don't have to put on a robe, rub oil on your head (or whatever. hehe), become a total nerd... you will make God very happy by being kind to and respectful of others, not totally destroying your body with chemicals/alcohol (the body is the temple of God... if you do it, do it in moderation), and following his commands for you and your life.

You mean change it to the way you intend? Cause the founders never intended that prayer be banned from public places.

right, but they DID intend that no one religion would become part of the government.

I agree that prayer can be said in public anywhere, anytime, in America. But i think it is wrong to require students of all faiths (or lack thereof) to listen to, let alone recite "one nation under god" in a public, government run school that they are required to attend.

I also think it is wrong to display the ten commandments on any government ground without also allowing displays from other religious thought.


It's the favoritism that is banned in SOCAS, not the religion.

I am pretty sure christ said "believe in me and you shall be saved"
I believe in him. He never seemed like the type to lie. And when i get to heaven im gonna kick his fathers lilly white ass. If he's an allknowing, allpowerfull god he could have done more. people are dying down here RIGHT NOW for him and he sit there allknowing. Alldoing would perhaps be better.

Hmmm...he did say, in John 3:16, "I'm the way, the truth and the life. Anyone who believes in me won't be lost but will have eternal life* ".
Believing in him means that you believe he exists, but this is the most important command he gives: "Love your Lord God with your whole heart, soul and mind." Then, in second, it is, like the first, "Love your neighbour as if he's you." The whole of Christian, Muslim and Jewish faith depend on these two commands.

You see, it's a lot more than just believing in him, like the Devil does.

Yes, God is allknowing. If he perfected this world - what woud the point of heaven be? The whole purpose of this sufferingish, unfair life is basically to define the heavenly from the unheavenly, and to be the stepping stone between heaven and hell.

So, I'm afraid, it's impossible for you to kick his "lily-white ass". With those intentions, you'd never get in. Also, God is a spirit, and spirits don't have asses, as far as I'm aware...



* Eternal life DOES NOT mean heaven. It could be hell...

His god as a black hole idea vs your god is everywhere and everyone … that glowing on the inside idea you believe :) (just trying to make sure I still remember your viewpoint to)

Those two make an interesting contrast

Yes, and usually represented with the yin/yang symbol

If a person dies without having had a chance to hear the "Good News", as those Christians call it, meaning they have had no chance of converting, they apparently go to this place which is like a waiting room. There, during the time before Judgement Day, they are told the Good News by Jesus anyway. He (Jesus) went there (the waiting-room type place) and told everyone during the three days he was clinically dead.

You missed a bit. This place(abraham's bossom) doesnt exist anymore Jesus destroyed it and took everyone there back to heaven with him. It was never remade, to the best of my knowledge.

The whole purpose of this sufferingish, unfair life is basically to define the heavenly from the unheavenly, and to be the stepping stone between heaven and hell.

If not for the sufferingish, unfair life many of us would be more heavenly

Also, God is a spirit, and spirits don't have asses, as far as I'm aware...
Allright that one I give you
BUT HE BETTER HAVE SOME ANSWERS OR HES GONNA GET A FOOT WHERE HIS ASS SHOULD BE

First off I'll start by saying, that there are/were four possible places to go:

Heaven
Hell
Purgatory
Limbo

First off, after the resurection, Hell, and Purgatory were closed off. Limbo is the place for all nonBaptized babies/anyone before Jesus except to a certain point (or something like that), and Heaven is where everyone else goes.

To make it shorter, you will either get to Limbo if you are a dead baby, otherwise you go to Heaven.

[QUOTE=Haddess]


i had it explained to me this way once.....a woman can be a mother, a wife, and say, a teacher if that were her profession, but she is still one person....does that make sense at all?

sure, but it would seem really funny if the woman talked about herself, the mother, as "the mother"., like Jesus spoke of 'the father'.

kinda psycho, ya know?

That is what the masses believed. Did you know that Jesus was actually Jewish.That hew was a rabbi. What Jesus actually preached was that we are all "God". But the masses couldn't understand that. So their minds twisted what he said about them all being "God" to HE was "God". The masses completely destroyed Jesus's teachings and remade them into a form that they could understand.


Now there's a version that makes absolute sense to me.

First off I'll start by saying, that there are/were four possible places to go:

Heaven
Hell
Purgatory
Limbo

First off, after the resurection, Hell, and Purgatory were closed off. Limbo is the place for all nonBaptized babies/anyone before Jesus except to a certain point (or something like that), and Heaven is where everyone else goes.

To make it shorter, you will either get to Limbo if you are a dead baby, otherwise you go to Heaven.
Curious, where did you find the word LIMBO in the bible?

Curious, where did you find the word LIMBO in the bible?

...
...
...
...

...
.
.
.

Ummmmm. Yeah... Any way... I am not sure if it is in the Bible.

Why did humanity need a perfect sacrifice to redeem them? If "God" wanted us redeemed why did he need a sacrifice? Couldn't just have said "You are all redeemed of all your crimes." It would have been a huge time saver and a lot easier.

Because he is a petty and jealous god that wants to hold something over the people's heads to keep them in line and bowing down to him.

WHat better guilt trip than "HEY, I OFFERED UP MY SON FOR YOU!"

If he had just granted abolution for free, we wouldn't 'respect' him and would have just gone about our business, saying, hey thanks for the absolution, now get outa the way.

and hell is just one further way to manipulate the masses.

God, the great manipulator!

where do i sign up??? [/sarcasm]

Telegram me. I'd love to chat with you about this.

Hmmm...he did say, in John 3:16, "I'm the way, the truth and the life. Anyone who believes in me won't be lost but will have eternal life* ".
Believing in him means that you believe he exists, but this is the most important command he gives: "Love your Lord God with your whole heart, soul and mind." Then, in second, it is, like the first, "Love your neighbour as if he's you." The whole of Christian, Muslim and Jewish faith depend on these two commands.

You see, it's a lot more than just believing in him, like the Devil does.

Yes, God is allknowing. If he perfected this world - what woud the point of heaven be? The whole purpose of this sufferingish, unfair life is basically to define the heavenly from the unheavenly, and to be the stepping stone between heaven and hell.

So, I'm afraid, it's impossible for you to kick his "lily-white ass". With those intentions, you'd never get in. Also, God is a spirit, and spirits don't have asses, as far as I'm aware...



* Eternal life DOES NOT mean heaven. It could be hell...

that's not John 3:16... for reference, I presented it several posts back.

the quote you might be meaning to use is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me."

and by "belief", this is what you believe:

Jesus is God... he came to earth as God incarnate.

Jesus died for the sins of the world and rose from the dead three days later (the resurrection)

Jesus is currently in heaven with God the Father (the guises of the Father and the Son are there)

Jesus has all power to save or condemn, and only Jesus can save

Jesus will return one day

---

IE, it's not just believing that Jesus exists or existed... it's believing in all that he is, all that he can do.

Eternal life, as Jesus used the phrase, does mean heaven. When I have time, I'll find the Scripture to back it up. Or maybe someone else can do it. A good resource is biblegateway.com

"The wages of sin is death." (here "death" refers to hell)

I once cried to myself, afraid to go to hell.

I live in a moslem country. Brought up as one... but ended up practicing another religion. Before I did, I read the "teachings of Budha" "the bible" "Quran" (and the list goes on) and conclude all religions teach us to be good people. Unfortunately, there are minority preaches who happens to be extremists and distorts their own religion, and people falls for it. Doesn't matter which religion, cause religion is good, the rest depends on the people.

Just remind yourself, you have to know your role, and who you are and what you do matters and have faith in god. Cause in the end of your days, it is god who will do the judging wether or not, you be in a better place or otherwise.

Peace.

As i heard it it went from greek to latin to greek to olde english to the book we have a dozen versions of today.
This seems to me the real reason it doesnt really make sense all the way through. ( Ever read a direct chinese translation of anything? jibberish)
When God handed it down it was pure. nowdays it barely resembles the original texts. It allmost isnt worth reading, accept there is no better option.
The things we believe today to be religious fact werent what christ and his generation believed.

I agree that just reading the bible is not of great value.
However it is worth it to study the bible.

If you study the history and to some extent the language of the day when the books of the bible were written. It does become better understood.
Words we use that did not exist or meanings that have changed. For example, the English word "imp" once meant "a young shoot of a plant." Later, the word came to mean "child." Prayers made years ago for the Prince of Wales referred to him as "that most angelic imp." However, today, the word imp means "an evil creature."

Just reading the bible while it can be superficially helpful it can also be very harmful.
Study is what is required.

JMayo

[QUOTE=Haddess]


why was dirt made brown instead of orange?

i simply don't know why God made things the way he did.

the dirt in Georgia and many other locations IS orange.

while this may seem to be off topic, in my eyes it explains it perfectly.

Let's say god is dirt. (hey, no offense, god). The people living in Kansas say that Dirt god is brown, and if you don't agree,then you aren't talking about Dirt god.

And the good Georgians say "Dirt god is orange" and they are right.

"BLASPHEMERS!" cry the Kansas worshippers, because they think that if Dirt god was orange, then they would be *gasp* wrong. Since they KNOW they are right, then of course the Georgians must be wrong. They go on Missions to Georgia to convince them that Dirt god is brown. And upon seeing the orange dirt, they called it Devil dirt.

Then someone from Florida shows up and says Dirt god is grey sand. Now the Kansas worshippers are so scared they might be wrong, they send crusaders instead of missionaries, to kill off the blasphemers that dare say Dirt god might not be brown.

HEY, Y'ALL. Just because you have seen dirt does not make you an expert on all the manifestations of dirt.. There just might be dirt out there that you wouldn't recognize because it doesn't look brown like yours, but it's still dirt.

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

the dirt in Georgia and many other locations IS orange.

while this may seem to be off topic, in my eyes it explains it perfectly.

Let's say god is dirt. (hey, no offense, god). The people living in Kansas say that Dirt god is brown, and if you don't agree,then you aren't talking about Dirt god.

And the good Georgians say "Dirt god is orange" and they are right.

"BLASPHEMERS!" cry the Kansas worshippers, because they think that if Dirt god was orange, then they would be *gasp* wrong. Since they KNOW they are right, then of course the Georgians must be wrong. They go on Missions to Georgia to convince them that Dirt god is brown. And upon seeing the orange dirt, they called it Devil dirt.

Then someone from Florida shows up and says Dirt god is grey sand. Now the Kansas worshippers are so scared they might be wrong, they send crusaders instead of missionaries, to kill off the blasphemers that dare say Dirt god might not be brown.

HEY, Y'ALL. Just because you have seen dirt does not make you an expert on all the manifestations of dirt.. There just might be dirt out there that you wouldn't recognize because it doesn't look brown like yours, but it's still dirt.


Awesome I did not even think of that analogy … applauded

Understand what. Understand your beliefs. You are simply trying to make others believe as you do.

Yeah, western man's basic inability to see things other than in two dimensions.

Right or Wrong. Has to be one or the other. Can't be both, and can't both of them be right.

Easterners have much less difficulty in allowing for more than one possible right answer. they see the world much more multi-dimensional, therefore there can be two or more right answers that don't look anything like each other.

brown dirt - okay fine

orange dirt - sure, fine

grey sand - why not?

and by "belief", this is what you believe:

Jesus is God... he came to earth as God incarnate.

Jesus died for the sins of the world and rose from the dead three days later (the resurrection)

Jesus is currently in heaven with God the Father (the guises of the Father and the Son are there)

Jesus has all power to save or condemn, and only Jesus can save

Jesus will return one day

---

IE, it's not just believing that Jesus exists or existed... it's believing in all that he is, all that he can do.



That all sounds right to me. And if God is as allthat as he said then words will still be had over his lack of involvement

i am trying to explain what i believ so that maybe others can understand. How can i remain silent about my faith when God has blessed me so much? Yes, i want everyone in the world to understand the peace that i feel. and the comfort that comes from my God. He loves his children and he loves me. I want everyone to feel this love. of course i can't make you. but yes. im trying to make others understand. you might as well tell me not to breathe.

My problem is that i DO feel that love. But Christian fanatics tell me it is not God's love because i won't call it by the name of Jesus.

Why can't those kind of Christians accept that God may speak to others in different ways than he spoke to you? Maybe he used Jesus to reach you, while he used Ghandi to reach others? Who are you to decide the name that God must have? Or that only the Love carrying the name you agree with is truly Love?

do mothers in Iran not love their children because they don't baptise them? get real. Love is love whether or not Jesus had anything to do with it.

[QUOTE=Preturbed Individuals]

the dirt in Georgia and many other locations IS orange.

while this may seem to be off topic, in my eyes it explains it perfectly.

Let's say god is dirt. (hey, no offense, god). The people living in Kansas say that Dirt god is brown, and if you don't agree,then you aren't talking about Dirt god.

And the good Georgians say "Dirt god is orange" and they are right.

"BLASPHEMERS!" cry the Kansas worshippers, because they think that if Dirt god was orange, then they would be *gasp* wrong. Since they KNOW they are right, then of course the Georgians must be wrong. They go on Missions to Georgia to convince them that Dirt god is brown. And upon seeing the orange dirt, they called it Devil dirt.

Then someone from Florida shows up and says Dirt god is grey sand. Now the Kansas worshippers are so scared they might be wrong, they send crusaders instead of missionaries, to kill off the blasphemers that dare say Dirt god might not be brown.

HEY, Y'ALL. Just because you have seen dirt does not make you an expert on all the manifestations of dirt.. There just might be dirt out there that you wouldn't recognize because it doesn't look brown like yours, but it's still dirt.
You created a wonderful parable. Thank you. :)

GO MORMONS! They can explain away everything.

I will clarify on how "God" created original sin. "God" created the Garden of Eden correct? He also created Adam and Eve. He gave Adam and Eve curiosity. He then but the Tree of Knowlage in the Garden and told them not to eat its fruit. Adam and Eve's natural curiosity (which "God" gave them) took over and they began to wonder why "God" told not to eat the tree's fruit and what would happen if they did. Then "God" allowed the "Devil" into the Garden and allowed him to convince Eve to eat the fruit working off of her curiosity which "God" gave her.Eve ate the fruit and you all know what happened next. But do you see my point?


Yeah! It was a setup by that manipulative god guy!

Interesting point aobut the Tree of Knowledge. When they ate of it's fruit they became aware of good and evil, and being naked and the like, and thus were ejected from the Garden of Eden (where nature is/was at peace with itself).

The Zen folks would agree with this concept. That becoming 'self-aware' is having an ego. Holding oneself as separate from the Oneness of the Universe creates that separation, or 'fall from grace', and results in nature that is not at peace because it is divided.

Wow, could DirtGod be the whole Earth, knowing itself? And the big daddy God of all Gods would be the Universe at its moment of self-awareness.

boggle THAT.

Not to mention the fact that without the knowledge of good and evil they did not know it was GOOD to follow gods directions but BAD to follow those of the serpent

How do you reasonably expect someone to follow your directions when they don’t even know they are supposed to listen to you


Wow, that is an excellent argument that i have never heard made before.

Very valid.

How can they be held responsible for something they did before they knew good from evil?

If you study the history and to some extent the language of the day when the books of the bible were written. It does become better understood.
Words we use that did not exist or meanings that have changed. For example, the English word "imp" once meant "a young shoot of a plant." Later, the word came to mean "child." Prayers made years ago for the Prince of Wales referred to him as "that most angelic imp." However, today, the word imp means "an evil creature."

JMayo
Now you hit on a favourite topic. :D This change in language only compounds the problem.
Did you know that the word "hell" comes from the viking word "hel"? which is the frozen wasteland around Valhalla that you get stranded in if you do not die in combat.( they lived in the snow and did not fear fire and brimstone)
What is this word doing in the bible? Christ never used the word hell in his life
it just wasnt a part of the language at that time. So how did it become such a pivotal part of christianity? Im told it was put there during the darkages to scare and convert the vikings. Just as christmass and easter "happen" to fall on pagan holidays, makeing it easier to convert the druids.(none would willingly give up a public holiday even then. not even for God. lol)
If you imagine the bible without the threat of daily beatings in a pit of fire it all looks much friendlier and easier to handle.

Wow, that is an excellent argument that i have never heard made before.

Very valid.

How can they be held responsible for something they did before they knew good from evil?
Exactly how did they know it was “good” to follow god and not eat the apple? If they knew it already then they already had knowledge of good and evil before the apple
If not how the fuck were they supposed to not know that following a snake was a bad thing (or disobeying their god for that matter)

i would be telling my beliefs because i want people to be forgiven and got to heaven rather then suffer in hell.

So you have the arrogance to believe you know the mind of God and who he will send to hell?

Isn't Pride a deadly sin?

I hope YOU are forgiven for your arrogance so you won't suffer in hell.

Oh yeah, you Christians beleive you are already forgiven. You are sinners like the rest of us, only better because you have kissed the mighty ass of Jesus to get out of doing the time for your sins.

I'll be responsible for my own actions rather than sell my soul to a manipulative, intolerant, spiteful god who would make his son pay for my mistakes.

I tell ya what, i am far more careful not to do wrong to my fellow man because i think i am responsible for my actions, than if i thought i could put my sins off on someone else.

'The height of arrogance is the height of one who creates God in his own image.'

As science proceeds into a new century, it is not boastful, nor is it superficial. The Christian religion, as illustrated throughout its history, remains a threat to intellect and human growth. As quantum physics and nuero-science barrel into the frontier of the human mind and its fundamental organization, we are learning how spirituality and attitude can have a corporeal effect.

Dr. Masaru Emoto of Japan, discovered that water crystals, under high powered microscopes, change shapes when presented w/ different intentions expressed through spoken word, written word, and music. What Dr. Emoto has provided, is evidence that physical matter can be manipulated by mere intention expressed through various mediums. This astounds me. Of course, there are many examples of meditation, prayer, and collective thought that have made positive impacts on a number of people, places, and things, but I'm not writing a thesis.

All I'm saying, is b/c there are effects on a person or their physical surroundings due to prayer, spirituality, meditation, et cetera does not necessarily prove the existence of a Christian God, or a Muslim God, Jewish God, or so on. I cannot comprehend the infinite ability of a creator, who may or may not have set our souls in motion; who may or may not exist. A spiritual revolution, coupled w/ science will bring us to a new level of consciousness if we can relieve ourselves of fundamental beliefs that suffocate ideas and the progression of human thought.

Not just that, the whole story is different if you look into older versions, Adam and eve (according to jewish tradition im told) were not made one at a time.
The original creation was Hermaphroditic and god later split it in two by removing a rib. (rib? i would think by removing the penis would be more correct, but we cant have swares in the bible so that was altered.)

Any of you christians out there read the other books of the bible? 2/3 of the books that were put forward as BIBLE were rejected by the church of the time for one reason or another*
While i wouldnt sware buy it all, it is certainly worth a read,gives a very different view of a lot of things. It seems a LOT of stuff got the censors red line through it because it didnt fit with contemporary beliefs of the time. The examples of christs earlyer miracles dont seem to have have the same wisdom he achieved later in life. Nothing i would see as evil but certainly small childish things that it wouldnt do to have people hear about the son of god

* apparently they put the books under a table, turned around, then when they turned back some were on top of the table and they were accepted.

I just wanted to say, to your question, that i don't agree with what your saying. Just becaues you don't beilieve in god or jesus, I don't think it means you will go to hell, and the Nazi would defiently not be going to heavan on the grounds of all the commandments the broke. But in the end I think i think that you and god will go over all your good and bad stuff and you will then be judged. Just becaues a person does not believe I don't think really matters, some people don't beileve elvis is died, and yet..... Easiest way to not worry about it, live life as a good person and not be a bad person, i.e. help others and you will be helped, hurt others and you will be hurt.

If that was all the anti religion secularists wanted, there would not be a conflict cause Christians don't force others to pray against there will. What the conflict comes is when the secularists say "we don't believe in prayer and we are going to make a law banning you from praying too."

To ban voluntarily prayer from public places, is a violation of religious freedom. Religion essentially being a public thing in nature. There fore the government has not the authority to restrict it to a private closet just because someone else does not want too see you on a street corner doing your prayer.

If you don't want to pray, that's fine, but you cannot prohibit someone else from doing so if he so chooses.

That is the real reason for the conflict over public prayers. No one has ever forced another person to pray in a public place. Rather, people who were praying in a public place have been subject to harrassment on account of their religion. And that is just as great a violation of religious freedom as forcing someone to engage in prayer.
The US Constitution is clear that you can neither promote nor restrict the right to freedom of religious expression.


Please cite one source where there has been proposed legislation by a secularist who was trying to ban everyone from praying? Maybe in Communist Russia....

I think you confuse the meaning of "public". It does not mean outside of your private home, which you seem to think. It does not mean, if i catch you praying, i will send you to jail.

In the case of banning religion in Public Places it refers to places that belong to the entire public, i.e. government buildings, and schools. As in the difference between public works and private enterprise.

The theory is that these Public places are places where anyone and everyone might be REQUIRED to go, and therefore should not have religion put in their faces. Kids in a public school should not have to look at a picture of Jesus on the wall in every classroom, for instance. But in a Private school, that would be acceptable, because those who don't like it don't have to go there.

That's why the big whoop-de-doo over the Ten commandments at the Courthouse. All citizens might be required at one time or another to go to the courthouse. They should not be forced to deal with the ten commandments in their face. Now, if you want to put the ten commandments on your lawn, thats fine. I don't have to go there.

I just wanted to say a quick thing about the bible, its junk, the idea is good, but the finnished product is junk. Reason for this is just as what others have said above, human rejecting what the want and don't want, you can't just put in what you want and don't want when GOD tells you something. But yet it has happened and the bible shows us that. In the end I think all god really wants from us is to be decent people, not asking for much.

I apologize in advance for the accusory tone of this post, but my problem with christianity is not its message, per se, but the hippocracy it creates.

This post above me is a christian, deriding another poster, and telling him not to be "judgemental", when clearly, this person has made up his mind about the other, and also even assuming where he lives.

Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself, eh?


Yeah, i noticed that too. Nowoland has judged himself worthy of standing at the pearly gates and judged the other as not being worthy.

I think that damns Nowoland to hell, right? Because that's how he judged the other guy?

Jesus' blood covers all sin, ALL SIN, for any who sincerly believe, repent of their sins, and follow him. That's it. That's his promise to us.

Real belief in Him and a real perseverance to follow his teaching can turn the most evil person you can imagine... can turn their life around.



And i counter this with: Real belief in the principles of Tao and a real perseverence to follow the Taoist teachings can turn the most evil person you can imagine...can turn their life around.

Or this: Real belief in Allah and a real perseverence to follow his teachings can turn the most evil person you can imagine,...can turn their life around.

Or this: Real belief in Him (jesus) and a real perseverance to follow his teaching can turn the most docile person into the most damning, judgemental person around.


It really bothers me that Christians think they have a corner on the Goodness market.

fall to your knees

i will not fall to my knees to worship a creature that you admit is no less capable of mistakes than myself. My idea of God is not some insecure, jealous ruler that requires that i worship him. Sounds like idolatry to me.

beg his forgiveness for your sins

that's okay, i will admit my sins and he doesn't need to forgive them. What good would it do the widow of the man i killed for god to forgive me the murder?

realize that you are not worthy of Him

Nor is your version of god worthy of my worship or even respect. If he does not value people like Ghandi and Black Kettle of the Cheyenne, and allow them into heaven, then he's a moron.

ask him to come into your heart/life

so i can be infuriatingly judgemental, intolerant and self-righteous? no thanks.

seek his will and try to do it

now that i might agree with, but the whole discussion here is about how DOING things will not get you into heaven. what if i do exactly god's will, but i just dont attribute it to Jesus, but only directly to God?