NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?


Telegram me for some books that deal with the issues. I'm going to bed now :)

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?


And hence one of my moral issues with the christian god

And hence one of my moral issues with the christian god
Or as I would have put it: "Just one more reason I'd kill it if it was real"

tag

And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

Forget between the Old and the New Testament, how about within each? First example to come to mind is when God threatens to destroy the Israelites and start a new nation with Moses and his offspring, only to be convinced by Moses not to do so because it would make God look bad to the other nations. (I think this is part of the story of the spies, where 11 of the 13 spies bring back a negative report on Canaan and the people choose not to enter it. I wanna say in Numbers, somewhere, not sure.)

I cannot make a good response to this thread without flaming.

Don't the Jews have some afterlife thing that they believe in?

I cannot make a good response to this thread without flaming.

Then it's not a good response.

Regarding the original post, I was raised Lutheran and Catholic, and though I am religiously independent of ideology, I think I am somewhat qualified to explain.

From a Christian viewpoint, we are born with Original Sin of Adam and Eve. If a baby dies before being baptised, it will go to Hell. From a Christian viewpoint, people who do not convert will go to Hell. Also, from the Bible directly, God is represented and shown to be jealous and wrathful. Hardly befitting a perfect being.

I hope these few comments help to show how ignorant Christianity can be. The people themselves are mostly fine, but their doctrines are warped and flawed.

---

Concerning a Jewish belief in the afterlife, one of my closest friends is married to a Jewish lady, and she has explained that the Jewish people are clustered into two camps of thought, one in which there is an afterlife, and one in which we cease to be after death, until the coming of the Messiah. The latter belief is most widely-held.

First example to come to mind is when God threatens to destroy the Israelites and start a new nation with Moses and his offspring, only to be convinced by Moses not to do so because it would make God look bad to the other nations.

I want to just state how illogical this sentence is. If God is god, then He is perfect. He cannot error. He knows everything, He is resolute. He thus does not make any mistakes. Why would he do something, only to be "convinced" by a being He Himself created? Am I the only one who sees the glaring contradiction?

Just confess your sins on your death bed, no one will know the difference.

Look at it this way. Suppose some guy totals your car, and your insurance won't cover it. You'd sue him to get the money back. What if his brother came in and offered to pay for a new car for you?

We've all "totalled cars." We've cheated, lied, stolen, thought impure thoughts. And God cannot accept that. Yet, He didn't want to "sue." He doesn't want people to go to Hell. That's why He sent His son to "pay for the car." He sent His son, not to pay with money, but to pay with His blood.

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

The christian is judged outside of the law. The nonchristian is judged within the law. If you believe Christ did everything the bible says he did, and you follow his commands, you are saved by grace. But if you don't believe in him, then you are judged according to the ceremonial laws of the old testament and according to your works. Works are involved in a christian's salvation however, christians realize that nothing they do can pay off the debt they do. So the grace of Christ covers their debt for them.
Whereas, by rejecting Christ as the divine son of God, nonchristians are saying that they will pay their own way into heaven. Thing is that according to the standard that God set, nothing that the nonchristian does, regardless of how many good works he performs, will get the nonbeliever into heaven.


For comparison:
The muslims, because they have rejected that Christ is the divine Son of God, and the only through which people can get into heave, have chosen to try to work their way into heaven. I think its the same for some Jews.
Therefore, there christian will get into heaven free of charge with only a cursory look at their past life on this planet. Whereas the Muslim, because he chose to try to work his way into heaven, will have to sit through a great and terrible judgment. A time of testing fire. This is not to say that no muslims will enter heaven. Some but not all, will. It is the same with the Jews and the Hindus. It all depends on whether they had an opportunity to accept Christ. If they did not have that opportunity, they will be allowed in if they're works were found good. But if they had the opportunity and rejected it, they will be cast into hell.
What it boils down to, for the nonbeliever, is whether they had a chance to hear and decide.

Let us compare two athiests: one in Los Angeles and another in the middle of Siberia.
In Siberia, the athiest was all alone. He knew vaguely about something called christianity but he was raised athiest. So all he knew was that it was some psycho thing people used as a crutch for bad times and to pacify the people. No one went to him and showed him christianity's teachings or even asked him to accept christ.
The athiest in Los Angeles however, not heard about christianity but was able to hear what Christianity was about. He knew the teachings cause they are pretty widespread in California, and indeed America. He had the opportunity to accept Christ as the door to heaven. The divine Son of God who died and rose on the third day and ascended into heaven.
Both men died and met Peter at the gates.
Peter looked at the Siberian's ledger reviewing everything he had done. And it turned out the siberian did some good stuff. It was just that he had never been given a chance to know what christianity was about. So Peter open the gate and a voice says, Come, enter into Paradise. And the Siberian enters.
The LAer goes to follow him and Peter grabs him by the shoulder and prevents his entry.
They review his record. It turns out he had an opportunity but rejected it completely. Claiming good works would get him in. Further, it was found that not only did he reject Christ, but he rejected God the Father too. And he engaged in legalized persecution of christians by suing to have all christian prayers and bible's banned.
Peter says "I'm sorry" and locks the gate.
The athiest says, you got to let me in. I have a civil right to enter heaven. I did good works when I was alive. You people owe me.
Then, Peter steps aside and in steps Jesus himself who responds:
This is my place and it's not a democracy. You have no rights up here. You have a very huge debt and nothing you did on earth, even the little good works that you did do, are enough to pay your entry. We don't owe you a thing. You had your chance but you let it pass you by until was too late. It is you who owe me. But don't worry, I'm not casting you out into the street to wander around. We got a shelter for people just like you. It's called hell.

Bravo, Temme.

Look at it this way. Suppose some guy totals your car, and your insurance won't cover it. You'd sue him to get the money back. What if his brother came in and offered to pay for a new car for you?

We've all "totalled cars." We've cheated, lied, stolen, thought impure thoughts. And God cannot accept that. Yet, He didn't want to "sue." He doesn't want people to go to Hell. That's why He sent His son to "pay for the car." He sent His son, not to pay with money, but to pay with His blood.

Well said. It doesn’t matter how good you think you are, you are still sinful before God.

About the babies thing, as a Southern Baptist, I believe that all those who can not understand God’s message and all those under the age of accountability go to Heaven. Baptism is not a ticket into heaven, it is just a way to publicly show that you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior.

Just out of curiosity, what Scriptural justification do you have for your position? I'm not disputing it, I'm just wondering why.

who is that directed at?

And hence one of my moral issues with the christian god
Nazis?

who is that directed at?

Undelia. About the whole "babies go to Heaven."

I assure you that the Nazis will soon find themselves in hell.

1. By claiming to be christian and killing in God's name, they committed blasphemy and took God's name in vain and committed murder.

2. While some may have claimed to be christian by virtue of family heritage, the fact is that the Nazis rejected Christ as the Son of God and the only way to heaven.

There are no Nazi's in heaven.

Christianity, true christianity is not something you can inherit from your parents. It is not something that is passed father to son or mother to daughter.
Whether you go into heaven is not based on what your parents did or decided? Its based on you what you do, on what you decide.

I assure you that the Nazis will soon find themselves in hell.

1. By claiming to be christian and killing in God's name, they committed blasphemy and took God's name in vain and committed murder.

2. While some may have claimed to be christian by virtue of family heritage, the fact is that the Nazis rejected Christ as the Son of God and the only way to heaven.

There are no Nazi's in heaven.


Then you should read a book calle the cross and the swastika, it details the last days of many of the Nazi leaders during the nuremburg Trials, and a number of tehm did trepent of their sins and accept jesus christ as thier lord and saviour.

Just out of curiosity, what Scriptural justification do you have for your position? I'm not disputing it, I'm just wondering why.

He that believeth on Him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18)
An infant is incapable of rejecting Jesus.

"While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Samuel 12:22-23).
Here, David clearly believes he will be reunited with his infant son in heaven.

Then you should read a book calle the cross and the swastika, it details the last days of many of the Nazi leaders during the nuremburg Trials, and a number of tehm did trepent of their sins and accept jesus christ as thier lord and saviour.
If they did, they were no longer Nazis when they died.

The other thing is we don't know if those last minute actions were sincere or because they were afraid of a fire pit.
There is no guarantee that their repentance and acceptance of Christ was sincere. Only God knows that. Therefore, it is a bit premature to assume that just because they said a death bed prayer that they are automatically admitted into heaven.
It all depends on actual intentions, or what was truely in their minds and hearts. You can fool man, but you cannot fool God.

I assure you that the Nazis will soon find themselves in hell.

1. By claiming to be christian and killing in God's name, they committed blasphemy and took God's name in vain and committed murder.

2. While some may have claimed to be christian by virtue of family heritage, the fact is that the Nazis rejected Christ as the Son of God and the only way to heaven.

There are no Nazi's in heaven.

Christianity, true christianity is not something you can inherit from your parents. It is not something that is passed father to son or mother to daughter.
Whether you go into heaven is not based on what your parents did or decided? Its based on you what you do, on what you decide.

So if I reject religion because I think it's totally unbelievable, but spend my life like a regular mother Theresa, I'd go to hell?

Thanks. :)

I'm going to bed now. *yawn* By the time I wake up, this thread'll be so full I can't read it. If you want to ask me a specific question or debate with me, feel free to send me a TG.

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

The Christian principal is that everyone is a sinner. Because Adam and Eve sinned, you are born with original sin.(Jesus did not have a father, this is why he did not have original sin, and was sinnless.) Everybody is considered a sinner and unholy, unworthy of the Father and heaven. But those who belive, actually belive that Jesus dies free of sin as an eternal sacrifice and want forgivness for their sins, will be forgiven through Jesus Christ.

And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

well, he didn't. In the old testament, people performed sacrifices to compensate for their sin. When Jesus died for us, that was the Ultimate Sacrifice, so whoever belived in him could be forgiven as many times as they need. God didn't change his mind.

I assure you that the Nazis will soon find themselves in hell.

1. By claiming to be christian and killing in God's name, they committed blasphemy and took God's name in vain and committed murder.

2. While some may have claimed to be christian by virtue of family heritage, the fact is that the Nazis rejected Christ as the Son of God and the only way to heaven.

There are no Nazi's in heaven.

Christianity, true christianity is not something you can inherit from your parents. It is not something that is passed father to son or mother to daughter.
Whether you go into heaven is not based on what your parents did or decided? Its based on you what you do, on what you decide.
He is not discussing family hetitage and whatnot, he's refering to convicted Nazis who converted to Christianity and then died. According to the Bible, they, because they accepted Jesus and confessed their sins, would go to heaven. On the other hand, a dead baby would go to hell even though it can't possibly accept Jesus before death? That shows the moral quandry with the whole "confess and be saved" theory.

Even though I'm an athiest, I'd say that basically you do wrong, you go to hell, you do good, you go to heaven. Simple. None of this forgiveness crap. Simple solution.

Edit: Also, the Nazis did not kill in God's name, Hitler hated religion and considered himself and the Third Reich to be naturally pagan.

So if I reject religion because I think it's totally unbelievable, but spend my life like a regular mother Theresa, I'd go to hell?
yes that is correct. Because you cannot work your way into heaven. There is no way to build up enough Karma to pay your ticket through the pearly gates.
Only by the grace of Christ can you enter into heaven. We are reliant on him to pay our train ticket to heaven. He has offered to pay your ticket for you, by living a spotless life while he was here, letting them kill him without just cause, then rising on the third day and ascending to heaven. By rejecting him, you are refusing to let him pay your way into heaven.
He himself said "There is only way into heaven. No one can come enter heaven or come to the Father except through me."
"if you reject the son, you also reject the father."
" I am the way, the truth, and the life. Without me there is no into heaven."

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

Faith alone isn't enough, contrary to what some evangelical Christians say. One's deeds are important.

James 2:14-26
Matthew 25:31-46

well, he didn't. In the old testament, people performed sacrifices to compensate for their sin. When Jesus died for us, that was the Ultimate Sacrifice, so whoever belived in him could be forgiven as many times as they need. God didn't change his mind.
Not as many times as they need, but as many times as they are willing to accept forgiveness. If they don't accept God's forgiveness, they can't be forgiven.

yes that is correct. Because you cannot work your way into heaven. There is no way to build up enough Karma to pay your ticket through the pearly gates.
Only by the grace of Christ can you enter into heaven. We are reliant on him to pay our train ticket to heaven. He has offered to pay your ticket for you, by living a spotless life while he was here, letting them kill him without just cause, then rising on the third day and ascending to heaven. By rejecting him, you are refusing to let him pay your way into heaven.
He himself said "There is only way into heaven. No one can come enter heaven or come to the Father except through me."
"if you reject the son, you also reject the father."
" I am the way, the truth, and the life. Without me there is no into heaven."
I Love Jesus. A lot. A great God and person.

Christians can go to hell.

(think about it before going to the mods)

yes that is correct. Because you cannot work your way into heaven. There is no way to build up enough Karma to pay your ticket through the pearly gates.
Only by the grace of Christ can you enter into heaven. We are reliant on him to pay our train ticket to heaven. He has offered to pay your ticket for you, by living a spotless life while he was here, letting them kill him without just cause, then rising on the third day and ascending to heaven. By rejecting him, you are refusing to let him pay your way into heaven.
He himself said "There is only way into heaven. No one can come enter heaven or come to the Father except through me."
"if you reject the son, you also reject the father."
" I am the way, the truth, and the life. Without me there is no into heaven."
You just shattered your whole argument, because that's the main problem with your religion. You can't "work your way into heaven" by helping mankind and bettering the world, but you can say a sentence or two after a life of evil and still get a ticket (which you technically can, just accept Jesus, confess and be saved, right?)? That's not the kind of afterlife I'd enjoy living in.

Not as many times as they need, but as many times as they are willing to accept forgiveness. If they don't accept God's forgiveness, they can't be forgiven.

Yes, that's what i meant. Thank you for clarifying.

<Snip>

Honest to God, if that is what Heaven sounds like, I don't think I *want* to go there...

You just shattered your whole argument, because that's the main problem with your religion. You can't "work your way into heaven", but you can say a sentence or two after a life of evil and still get a ticket (which you technically can, just accept Jesus, confess and be saved, right?)? That's not the kind of afterlife I'd enjoy living in.

Not everyone bad person that dies can say "I LOVE YOU JESUS" on thier death bed and be accepted. They have to genuinly belive, and genuinly want to be forgiven. It's not just something you say, or you can lie about. Your heart has to be behind it.

Honest to God, if that is what Heaven sounds like, I don't think I *want* to go there...
Agreed.

He is not discussing family hetitage and whatnot, he's refering to convicted Nazis who converted to Christianity and then died. According to the Bible, they, because they accepted Jesus and confessed their sins, would go to heaven. On the other hand, a dead baby would go to hell even though it can't possibly accept Jesus before death? That shows the moral quandry with the whole "confess and be saved" theory.

Even though I'm an athiest, I'd say that basically you do wrong, you go to hell, you do good, you go to heaven. Simple. None of this forgiveness crap. Simple solution.

Edit: Also, the Nazis did not kill in God's name, Hitler hated religion and considered himself and the Third Reich to be naturally pagan.
See that's the problem here. We are judging according to how a man would judge the situation.
Again it is based on the opportunity to accept christ and on the sincerity of the prayer of faith.
If the prayer is not sincere and genuine it is in vain. If the baby never had a chance to accept christ, it will not be kept out of heaven. Undelia has the right idea regarding the babies.
But as to the Nazi's we are assuming they went to heaven because of something they did outwardly.
In Matthew Christ refers to when the pharisees would clean cups. They would only clean the outside and people would think the cups were clean. But inside the cups, which weren't cleaned, mildew and mold were growing.
It is not what we do on the outside that matters, it is what we do on the inside.

Can you, as a mortal man, say with certainty that the prayers or those nazis were really sincere?

See that's the problem here. We are judging according to how a man would judge the situation.
Again it is based on the opportunity to accept christ and on the sincerity of the prayer of faith.
If the prayer is not sincere and genuine it is in vain. If the baby never had a chance to accept christ, it will not be kept out of heaven. Undelia has the right idea regarding the babies.
But as to the Nazi's we are assuming they went to heaven because of something they did outwardly.
In Matthew Christ refers to when the pharisees would clean cups. They would only clean the outside and people would think the cups were clean. But inside the cups, which weren't cleaned, mildew and mold were growing.
It is not what we do on the outside that matters, it is what we do on the inside.

Can you, as a mortal man, say with certainty that the prayers or those nazis were really sincere?

Can you say they werent?

Not everyone bad person that dies can say "I LOVE YOU JESUS" on thier death bed and be accepted. They have to genuinly belive, and genuinly want to be forgiven. It's not just something you say, or you can lie about. Your heart has to be behind it.
Ok, what if they genuinly believe. That doesn't change what they did. But that doesn't seem to matter.

I honestly believe the afterlife* should be about punishment or reward for what we did in this life, all together. If you kill someone, that shouldn't just be forgiven in an instant because you believe, even if that belief is genuine.

*I currently do not believe in any afterlife or deity.

Christians can go to hell.

(think about it before going to the mods)

That is correct. Just because someone belongs to a Christian church does not mean they have genuinely accepted Jesus as their lord and savoir. They may be just walking the walk and talking the talk, but on the inside they are spiritually dead.

Can you, as a mortal man, say with certainty that the prayers or those nazis were really sincere?
I truthfully can't, but if they were? As i just said in my last reply (sorry I seem to have two different conversations going on here ^.^), if they were sencere, does that get them off? I hope not.

Edit: must sleep, work tommorow. Just remember I'm not out to offend or make enemies, just to clarify ambiguities I see in Christianity. Ciao.

You just shattered your whole argument, because that's the main problem with your religion. You can't "work your way into heaven" by helping mankind and bettering the world, but you can say a sentence or two after a life of evil and still get a ticket (which you technically can, just accept Jesus, confess and be saved, right?)? That's not the kind of afterlife I'd enjoy living in.
It takes more than words on your death bed to get into heaven. If you have the impression that you can committ evil all your life, not be penitent for it, and just say a sentence and get a free trip to heaven. You are sadly mistaken. God does not work that way.
Confession must be sincere. You must try to rectify the situation you are repenting of. And you must accept sincerely accept Christ as the only to heaven. Someone whose been in the faith longer can explain it better than I can.

Ok, what if they genuinly believe. That doesn't change what they did. But that doesn't seem to matter.

I honestly believe the afterlife* should be about punishment or reward for what we did in this life, all together. If you kill someone, that shouldn't just be forgiven in an instant because you believe, even if that belief is genuine.

*I currently do not believe in any afterlife or deity.


"I honestly believe the afterlife* should be about punishment or reward for what we did in this life, all together."

Fortunatly, that is not the way christianity works. These people are sorry for what they did, as in if they got the chance, they wouldn't do it again. They are changed, good. You shouldn't automatically go to hell for a couple, or even a thousand mistakes.

Honest to God, if that is what Heaven sounds like, I don't think I *want* to go there...
which part are you referring to?

That is correct. Just because someone belongs to a Christian church does not mean they have genuinely accepted Jesus as their lord and savoir. They may be just walking the walk and talking the talk, but on the inside they are spiritually dead.

Thanks for ruining the joke

Can you say they werent?
I am just a man. What makes you think I can do that?
I am saying that we don't know if they were sincere or not. I was pointing out the fallacy of saying that they did this outward act so that gives them a free pass when in actuality it doesn't. The heart has to be behind the actions.
If you repent but your heart is not in it, your outward repentence is in vain. But only God can see what is in the heart of men.

"I honestly believe the afterlife* should be about punishment or reward for what we did in this life, all together."

Fortunatly, that is not the way christianity works. These people are sorry for what they did, as in if they got the chance, they wouldn't do it again. They are changed, good. You shouldn't automatically go to hell for a couple, or even a thousand mistakes.
But that's the point! Isn't hell about paying for your sins? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if you don't go there for your mistakes? From what I've been gathering here, the only sin you can really be sent to hell for is not accepting Jesus, which in my mind means that the Christian god is quite jealous and bratty.

Edit: As before, I must go. This is my last reply.

I truthfully can't, but if they were? As i just said in my last reply (sorry I seem to have two different conversations going on here ^.^), if they were sencere, does that get them off? I hope not.

Edit: must sleep, work tommorow. Just remember I'm not out to offend or make enemies, just to clarify ambiguities I see in Christianity. Ciao.
God does not run things that way, because he is a god of love, not a god of vengeance. If he was a god of vengeance, then all of mankind would be in hell.

So if I reject religion because I think it's totally unbelievable, but spend my life like a regular mother Theresa, I'd go to hell?

Similized world,

for your own sake, try not to be like Mother Theresa... look up some of the stuff a certain Christopher Hitchens published about her. Keywords: "the missionary position" "hitchens" "mother theresa".

Sample: http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hitchens_16_4.html

And before somebody starts ranting about not sullying the memory of the dead... read the facts and put aside emotions. The woman was a bane to the sick, she associated with mass-murderes and criminals, disregarded the interest of victims of fraud (since she benefited from it), at the acceptance speech of the Nobel Price for Peace, she stated that ABORTION was the greatest of all evils, and last but not least she thought that the suffering of the poor was a good thing, since it was spiritually beautiful.

The government party of Lanzavia (SHP - the Secular Humanist Party) has currently proposed legislation to confiscate the property of the Missionaries of Charity. This legislation is most likely to fail due to the opposition (Particularly the conservative DU (Democratic Union) and the PLP (Progressive Liberal Party )); however, the SHP wanted to use this opportunity to make a statement in support of human rights and dignity in opposition to malicious vicissitude towards the less fortunate in both Lanzavia and the world.

Neil Mendelson
Secretary of Education
Government of Lanzavia

But that's the point! Isn't hell about paying for your sins? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if you don't go there for your mistakes? From what I've been gathering here, the only sin you can really be sent to hell for is not accepting Jesus, which in my mind means that the Christian god is quite jealous and bratty.

Edit: As before, I must go. This is my last reply.

That is your point. You belive people should suffer for their sins no matter where their hearts are at. A major Christian principalis that everybody and everything can be forgiven. Hell is about paying for your sins, and without Jesus everyone would go. He spares those who are sorry for thier sins.

"the only sin you can really be sent to hell for is not accepting Jesus"

You can be sent to hell for every sin, and everybody has sinned. But through Jesus, the Lord can forgive you of your sins.

But that's the point! Isn't hell about paying for your sins? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose if you don't go there for your mistakes? From what I've been gathering here, the only sin you can really be sent to hell for is not accepting Jesus, which in my mind means that the Christian god is quite jealous and bratty.

Edit: As before, I must go. This is my last reply.
That's a common misperception. It's based on the idea, contrary to what the Bible says, that hell is eternal. Hell is actually more like a cosmic eraser. If you don't make heaven in the final day, you don't burn for ever. Rather the fires of hell erase you from existence. It will be as if you never existed. Then when that is done, even hell itself will be erased from existence.

God does not run things that way, because he is a god of love, not a god of vengeance. If he was a god of vengeance, then all of mankind would be in hell.
How do you know they aren't?

faith.

How do you know they aren't?

because of belife in Jesus.

besides which, I've seen where the dead at this time, they are still sleeping in their graves awaiting the morning wake up alarm.

Edit: of course if you encounter a dead person, its not really a dead person but a demon masquerading as the dead. demons do that alot.
Its one of the ways of how they steal souls.

And I must confess that I have been their target for some time. and their assault has gotten pretty intense the last couple of months.

Forget between the Old and the New Testament, how about within each? First example to come to mind is when God threatens to destroy the Israelites and start a new nation with Moses and his offspring, only to be convinced by Moses not to do so because it would make God look bad to the other nations. (I think this is part of the story of the spies, where 11 of the 13 spies bring back a negative report on Canaan and the people choose not to enter it. I wanna say in Numbers, somewhere, not sure.)
It's in Exodus when the people have made a Golden Calf Idol. (Also there were twelve spies one from each tribe but I'm sure you don't care that much) Yeah God changes his mind. So? God was royaly pissed, and Moses interseded for the poeple. God wasn't pissed at Moses and so he fulfilled Moses' request. That's not that hard. Before you slam the Bible, learn somthing about it. I'm thinking of a better example than the one you just gave.

Edit: of course if you encounter a dead person, its not really a dead person but a demon masquerading as the dead. demons do that alot.
Its one of the ways of how they steal souls.
How do you know that the dead person I encounter is a demon?

If you say, "In the name of Jesus Christ and God the Father, I command you to depart" it will flee.

If it was the ghost of a person who christian in life, it would not flee. But if it was a demon pretending to be that person, it would.

If you say, "In the name of Jesus Christ and God the Father, I command you to depart" it will flee.

If it was the ghost of a person who christian in life, it would not flee. But if it was a demon pretending to be that person, it would.
Do you know the difference between knowledge and belief?

You cannot have true knowledge unless you know what is you believe.
Those who lack knowledge of the spiritual world, and or spiritual warfare should not attempt to confront such beings.
A spirit warrior must train, often for years, before they are ready to go out hunting demons.

You just shattered your whole argument, because that's the main problem with your religion. You can't "work your way into heaven" by helping mankind and bettering the world, but you can say a sentence or two after a life of evil and still get a ticket (which you technically can, just accept Jesus, confess and be saved, right?)? That's not the kind of afterlife I'd enjoy living in.


I think you completely miss the argument that's being "shattered". You HAVE to work your way into Heaven AND accept Christ, you can't do one or the other. Someone posted earlier about faith alone not being enough. There are different sects of Christianity that hold different belief systems. Dont condemn an entire religious system based on one or two beliefs of one or two sects. At least learn fully about each before you do that. Here's that quote: Faith alone isn't enough, contrary to what some evangelical Christians say. One's deeds are important.

James 2:14-26
Matthew 25:31-46

A lot of you missed the above point and believe that merely repenting sins and believing in Christ saves even the worst of people, which leads to the next argument:

Questioning the morality of sharing a fate, and therefore sharing heaven, with a Nazis and using this moral question to denounce a belief in God is ignorance. If God does not exist, then a Nazis shares the same fate as even the best of men. It's faith that God judges not solely on belief in Christ but also in the activities of men that allows one to know that no Nazis will be allowed in Heaven.

I realized what one of my previous dreams really was.

The one about death coming out of a light pole in the middle of the night. (the light was on when death came out of it). It was my brain processing a magazine article I had read which showed that it was scientifically proven that people who are around artificial lighting alot (ie those who work the night or graveyard shift) have a higher risk of cancer than those who get mostly natural light in the day time. So in a sense, death does come of a light bulb.

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

That is not right. God doesn't want anybody to rot in Hell. He wants EVERYBODY to be saved. If you've been living a moral life, why is it so difficult to accept Christ as your Saviour? Also, God has not condemned any one body to Hell, except Satan. If you are not Satan, you will always have the chance to Heaven.

Justice is served in the eyes of God, not in the eyes of men. To God, nobody deserves to be in Heaven. Therefore, no matter how "moral" you think your life is, you will never be able to reach God - unless, and only one unless, you accept Christ as your saviour. There is justice.

You cannot have true knowledge unless you know what is you believe.
Those who lack knowledge of the spiritual world, and or spiritual warfare should not attempt to confront such beings.
A spirit warrior must train, often for years, before they are ready to go out hunting demons.
So you don't know, after all. You don't know if the spirit I encounter is a demon, until I "test" if it ran away.

What is "true knowledge"?

the bible says' believe not every spirit, but test the spirits. by testing it you find out if it is a demon or not.

In science the analogy would be that knowledge is based on tests or experiments.

It is similar with the spirit world.

the bible says' believe not every spirit, but test the spirits. by testing it you find out if it is a demon or not.

In science the analogy would be that knowledge is based on tests or experiments.

It is similar with the spirit world.
Have you ever encountered a demon and had to test it?

Similized world,

for your own sake, try not to be like Mother Theresa <Snip>
Don't you worry about it. I already know all about her, I just used her as an example, because she embodied the 'virtues' of the christian church.

I'm a humanist and Atheist. Mother Theresa was definitly not my idea of a decent human being. Neither would I ever consider the Christian god benevolent at all. I better stop talking before someone dies from high bloodpressure. Cheers for putting a spot on that evil little twat tho ;)

May as well give this a shot, since no one's really tried to answer yet from the Catholic POV...

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right?

Close. If you, reject Jesus as Savior when you either know or should have known that he is such, you're going to Hell. God's the only game in town; if, knowing what you're doing, you reject him, then you're screwed.

If, on the other hand, through no fault of your own, you *don't* know what you're doing...well, then things get messy.

So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

All right. The first concept we need to understand here is "Invincible Ignorance," which means as noted above that a person, through no fault of his/her own, didn't know about Christ. That in all likelihood applied to some (though probably not all) those Jews killed.

That doesn't mean that they all automatically went to heaven, though. The term Catholic theologians have come up with to describe those who did is "Baptism of Desire," which basically means that if a person is invincibly ignorant--BUT, if s/he had known of Christ, s/he would have accepted Jesus, been baptized, etc.--then s/he will be saved.

What does it take to receive the Baptism of Desire? That's the kicker--WE DON'T KNOW. God, in his omniscience, knows, certainly; but as far as us mortals are concerned, once you're outside the Church it's at best a crapshoot (which is why it's so important to Christians for the Gospel to be preached, rather than leave the rest of the world in invincible ignorance).

Now, as to the question of Nazis who converted, and the justice in that. Catholicism has a wonderful little concept that most of the other Christian sects who broke away from it have rejected, called Purgatory. Basically, once you've repented of your sins, they're forgiven--but they still need to be atoned for, and the stain they've left on your soul needs to be cleansed/purged.

If you don't do it in this life, you'll do it in the next...and if you put it off to the next, it's going to HURT. It's a widely held view that the fires of Purgatory are identical to those of Hell in all but two respects--first, those in Purgatory have been saved, so there is no despair; secondly, those in Purgatory can be helped by the prayers of those on earth and in Heaven.

So, as regards Nazis who converted at the end and were saved, it's not like they got a free pass to Heaven. They pay for what they've done, and they pay through the nose.

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife.

Do good, and do no evil, right? The problem with that from the Christian worldview is that us humans have been appointed by God as his stewards over all creation. Every sin, no matter how small, is a betrayal of that task God has entrusted to us--high treason, on a cosmic scale (which is why it took Jesus, a divine Person, to redeem them--no mortal is capable of doing so).

Because of that, NO ONE is good enough on their own merits.

Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

Once again, speaking from the Catholic POV, if people like Gandhi are saved--and that is a big "if"--then it is in spite of their beliefs, not because of them. No religion outside of Christianity (and, in earlier times, Biblical Judaism) has any salvific value whatsoever.

This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell.

Why wouldn't he?

Why wouldn't he?
Because by our morals he shouldn’t

To me the Christian god is morally wrong hence some of the reason me and others do not worship him

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?If you do not believe in Jesus divinity and resurection as well as his forgiveness and accept you will go to hell i promice you this fact

Our good works are nothing and i mean nothing we cannot get into heaven for good works.

If you do not believe in Jesus divinity and resurection as well as his forgiveness and accept you will go to hell i promice you this fact
And I can promise that you don’t know for sure
I find a god that saves on faith not works or intents to be reprehensible

Our good works are nothing and i mean nothing we cannot get into heaven for good works.
Says your god … I think that if there is a god he would be more loving

Because by our morals he shouldn’t

To me the Christian god is morally wrong hence some of the reason me and others do not worship him

Yeah...you have defined morals for yourself, which means you are still incompatible with the morals of God. Drop your morals, accept the fact that you're a sinner, and take God's gift, and you're rescued. Just like that. POOF. Nothing is as easy. Perhaps because it's so easy, people find it incredulous. But it's that easy.

Yeah...you have defined morals for yourself, which means you are still incompatible with the morals of God. Drop your morals, accept the fact that you're a sinner, and take God's gift, and you're rescued. Just like that. POOF. Nothing is as easy. Perhaps because it's so easy, people find it incredulous. But it's that easy.
Sorry if I have a feeling in my gut that an un proven deity from an un proven book that requires something very specific of me is wrong I am going with my feelings in this manor

No one has given me enough reason to change my morals for

"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5).

"... Whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

So, if people tell you that you need to accept Jesus as Christ, but in your heart of hearts (your conscience, gift from God) you don't feel it is right, then trying to say you accept Jesus as your personal saviour, you are committing the sin of an impure heart, a bad conscience, and insincere faith.

Above all, God wants us to love and act according to our consciences. That's why he GAVE us a conscience.

So according to these passages of the Bible, and my own understanding of them, God would rather you follow your conscience than blindly follow Christ.

And as my final word on this subject:

WHO ARE ALL YOU JUDGEMENTAL CHRISTIANS WHO THINK YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD WELL ENOUGH TO CONDEMN ANYONE TO HELL?

JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED!!!

Sorry if I have a feeling in my gut that an un proven deity from an un proven book that requires something very specific of me is wrong I am going with my feelings in this manor

No one has given me enough reason to change my morals for

Unproven!HA!

The bible has been proven! Archaeologists have found seals from the people in the bible, cities that were at one time in the bible and some that still exist today, such as jerusulm, they have found bones of people from the bible, ever heard of the james ossuary?.

If that's not proof i don't know what is.

Matthew 20
A Story About Workers
1"God's kingdom is like an estate manager who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2They agreed on a wage of a dollar a day, and went to work.

3"Later, about nine o'clock, the manager saw some other men hanging around the town square unemployed. 4He told them to go to work in his vineyard and he would pay them a fair wage. 5They went.

"He did the same thing at noon, and again at three o'clock. 6At five o'clock he went back and found still others standing around. He said, "Why are you standing around all day doing nothing? 7'

"They said, "Because no one hired us.'

"He told them to go to work in his vineyard.

8"When the day's work was over, the owner of the vineyard instructed his foreman, "Call the workers in and pay them their wages. Start with the last hired and go on to the first.'

9"Those hired at five o'clock came up and were each given a dollar. 10When those who were hired first saw that, they assumed they would get far more. But they got the same, each of them one dollar. 11Taking the dollar, they groused angrily to the manager, 12"These last workers put in only one easy hour, and you just made them equal to us, who slaved all day under a scorching sun.'

13"He replied to the one speaking for the rest, "Friend, I haven't been unfair. We agreed on the wage of a dollar, didn't we? 14So take it and go. I decided to give to the one who came last the same as you. 15Can't I do what I want with my own money? Are you going to get stingy because I am generous?'

16"Here it is again, the Great Reversal: many of the first ending up last, and the last first."

Unproven!HA!

The bible has been proven! Archaeologists have found seals from the people in the bible, cities that were at one time in the bible and some that still exist today, such as jerusulm, they have found bones of people from the bible, ever heard of the james ossuary?.

If that's not proof i don't know what is.

Whoopedy-freakin-do. Some of the places exist. Some of the people may have existed. I can say the same about the Greek Gods, or the Norse Gods. Want me to go believe in them?

Unproven!HA!

The bible has been proven! Archaeologists have found seals from the people in the bible, cities that were at one time in the bible and some that still exist today, such as jerusulm, they have found bones of people from the bible, ever heard of the james ossuary?.

If that's not proof i don't know what is.

Sure the Bible is a real book. it's proven.

Yes, there are factual things in the Bible. It's not a completely fictional story. Some stuff has been verified....

But i can also prove that Plato wrote a book that had facts in it. Does that mean i have PROVEN that it is a work of God? Does it PROVE that everything in the book is factually infallible?

And if the Bible is such an infallible work, then explain to me how for centuries it included four books that are no longer included in the Bible? Was the Bible mistaken when it had those four books? Or is it mistaken NOW?

one way or another, the Bible is not infallible or there wouldnt have been the dispute about those four books.

You may BELIEVE that the Bible is the work of God. You may have FAITH that what it says there is true (and btw, have you read it in its original Sanskrit and Hebrew? or do you trust fallible human translators? and do you realize that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and NONE of the original bible documents are written in Aramaic, so therefore, we have no idea what the direct quotes of Jesus really were).

But your believing its true, and it being true are two different things.

If two thousand years from now, billions of people believe that The Celestine Prophecy is the Word of God...would that make it true?

To all the people saying no Nazis will be in Heaven -- God forgives. He's not a smiteful God that sits up in Heaven watching everyone's moves and at first sin says "SINNER YOU SHALL BE CONDEMNED TO A TORTUROUS AFTERLIFE IN A PIT OF FLAMING SULFUR". He merely watches and is glad when we truly are regretful of our actions and turn to him for forgiveness. It's not our place to judge if any Nazis were truly regretful of their actions as we can't know their true mindset, but if any were truly sorry and turned to God for forgiveness, chances are they'll be in Heaven. They won't be carrying a flashing sign that says "I was a Nazi back on Earth, please spit on me" because God has cast it behind him and forgiven him/her for it. If they were truly sorry.

Sorry if I have a feeling in my gut that an un proven deity from an un proven book that requires something very specific of me is wrong I am going with my feelings in this manor

No one has given me enough reason to change my morals for

Yeah, then try to prove God yourself! You hear people telling you "God is unproven", or you've tried to prove God by providing Him or His existence with a philosophical or intellectual basis, which simply doesn't work. Unlike science, religion isn't proven this way.

Have you ever encountered a demon and had to test it?
Yes. On several occasions.

And I can promise that you don’t know for sure
I find a god that saves on faith not works or intents to be reprehensible
And are you saying you know more?
That is like the blind trying to be the leader.

My God is a god of love and mercy. What you seem to seek is a God of revenge and destruction.

It is very good that God is not like men, otherwise no one would be saved.

Yes. On several occasions.

I'm a Demon :(

"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5).

"... Whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

So, if people tell you that you need to accept Jesus as Christ, but in your heart of hearts (your conscience, gift from God) you don't feel it is right, then trying to say you accept Jesus as your personal saviour, you are committing the sin of an impure heart, a bad conscience, and insincere faith.

Above all, God wants us to love and act according to our consciences. That's why he GAVE us a conscience.

So according to these passages of the Bible, and my own understanding of them, God would rather you follow your conscience than blindly follow Christ.

And as my final word on this subject:

WHO ARE ALL YOU JUDGEMENTAL CHRISTIANS WHO THINK YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD WELL ENOUGH TO CONDEMN ANYONE TO HELL?

JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED!!!

Do not qoute the scripture out of context. It is written that not everyone will enter heaven. But only those who both believe and do the will of the Lord.

Yeah, then try to prove God yourself! You hear people telling you "God is unproven", or you've tried to prove God by providing Him or His existence with a philosophical or intellectual basis, which simply doesn't work. Unlike science, religion isn't proven this way.
And I don’t have faith in said being so in the end my morals are what I have to stick with without proof or faith

and my morals say the christian god is wrong

Do not qoute the scripture out of context. It is written that not everyone will enter heaven. But only those who both believe and do the will of the Lord.
Works are not required only faith … in the Christian circle of faith

Sure the Bible is a real book. it's proven.

Yes, there are factual things in the Bible. It's not a completely fictional story. Some stuff has been verified....

But i can also prove that Plato wrote a book that had facts in it. Does that mean i have PROVEN that it is a work of God? Does it PROVE that everything in the book is factually infallible?

And if the Bible is such an infallible work, then explain to me how for centuries it included four books that are no longer included in the Bible? Was the Bible mistaken when it had those four books? Or is it mistaken NOW?

one way or another, the Bible is not infallible or there wouldnt have been the dispute about those four books.

You may BELIEVE that the Bible is the work of God. You may have FAITH that what it says there is true (and btw, have you read it in its original Sanskrit and Hebrew? or do you trust fallible human translators? and do you realize that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and NONE of the original bible documents are written in Aramaic, so therefore, we have no idea what the direct quotes of Jesus really were).

But your believing its true, and it being true are two different things.

If two thousand years from now, billions of people believe that The Celestine Prophecy is the Word of God...would that make it true?

The reason it wasn't written in arabic is because the people who wrote down his words, mainly the apostles, would have written it in their native tounge. And for the 4 books, at one of the councils i forget which one,they found that those 4 based on their word phrases and the times they were written were forgerys.

And are you saying you know more?
That is like the blind trying to be the leader.

My God is a god of love and mercy. What you seem to seek is a God of revenge and destruction.

It is very good that God is not like men, otherwise no one would be saved.
Never said anything of the sort

But by my morals a loving god would care for the person not the faith

Salvation by faith is wrong by my standards … I can hardly force myself to have faith in a deity I find wrong

Never said anything of the sort

But by my morals a loving god would care for the person not the faith

Salvation by faith is wrong by my standards … I can hardly force myself to have faith in a deity I find wrong

So you would rather work hard and fail then not have to do anything and succeed?, because that's what it comes down to.

Yeah...you have defined morals for yourself, which means you are still incompatible with the morals of God. Drop your morals, accept the fact that you're a sinner, and take God's gift, and you're rescued. Just like that. POOF. Nothing is as easy. Perhaps because it's so easy, people find it incredulous. But it's that easy.
No, it's not that easy. It requires belief. Unless you actually believe in it, none of that could happen.

So you would rather work hard and fail then not have to do anything and succeed?, because that's what it comes down to.
Nope in your world view it does
In mine if there is a god he is more loving then that and will understand my issues

Works are not required only faith … in the Christian circle of faith
yes with in the christian circle your way is paid by faith in christ. But that does not mean we continue sinning and breaking God's law.
Romans: Faith without works is in vain. But because works will never amount to enough, we are reliant on Faith alone. But if we have faith, it can be tested by our fruits. Yeah, the fruit of those who have true faith is good works, ie they carry out the will God, obey his laws.

But outside christianity, works is the main measure by which people are judged.

Nope in your world view it does
In mine if there is a god he is more loving then that and will understand my issues
There is one way to test that. But you have only one life. Only one chance. Once you are dead, you cannot go back and do it over. Repentance in death is not accepted, cause then it is too late.
Are you willing to make that gamble?

There is one way to test that. But you have only one life. Only one chance. Once you are dead, you cannot go back and do it over. Repentance in death is not accepted, cause then it is too late.
Are you willing to make that gamble?
Pascrell’s wager is flawed from its inception I would not bother trying it

yes with in the christian circle your way is paid by faith in christ. But that does not mean we continue sinning and breaking God's law.
Romans: Faith without works is in vain. But because works will never amount to enough, we are reliant on Faith alone. But if we have faith, it can be tested by our fruits. Yeah, the fruit of those who have true faith is good works, ie they carry out the will God, obey his laws.

But outside christianity, works is the main measure by which people are judged.
Let me clean that up.

You are right that we cannot get into heaven by works. What I was saying in the above, is that if you have true faith, it will result in your striving to live a righteous life (striving to live by God's law, because faith will give you a desire to want to), too avoid a lifestyle that is sin.
Most christians know what it is I refer to.

Just trying to clear up a previous post.

There is one way to test that. But you have only one life. Only one chance. Once you are dead, you cannot go back and do it over. Repentance in death is not accepted, cause then it is too late.
Are you willing to make that gamble?
If there is no belief in the Christian god (literal), then there is no gamble.

Pascrell’s wager is flawed from its inception I would not bother trying it
but you already are.

but you already are.
Nope cause I am not betting on anything
I am not trying to force a true belief “just in case”

I am just saying if there is a god he will understand … if not he does not deserve being worshiped anyways

If there is no belief in the Christian god (literal), then there is no gamble.
unbelief is still a gamble. especially since, as has been demonstrated in this thread, if you have the opportunity to know God and accept him and you reject it, you will not be saved but recieve judgement.
you are gambling on the proposition that you do not need to believe but that God will let you into heaven regardless.
That is not a bet to make.

I'm a Christian with strange veiws for a Christian...but...anyways.
My thoughts on religion as a whole is that whatever you belive...will be your fate. If you think that good works will get you into heaven...then good works will get you into heaven. If you belive that asking genuin forgiveness from God will get you into heaven...then it will.

And i'm aware that fellow Christians will totally and underly disagree with my veiws...but..
I'm entitled to them.

and that's that.

I'm a Christian with strange veiws for a Christian...but...anyways.
My thoughts on religion as a whole is that whatever you belive...will be your fate. If you think that good works will get you into heaven...then good works will get you into heaven. If you belive that asking genuin forgiveness from God will get you into heaven...then it will.

And i'm aware that fellow Christians will totally and underly disagree with my veiws...but..
I'm entitled to them.

and that's that.
Interesting way to think about it :)

unbelief is still a gamble. especially since, as has been demonstrated in this thread, if you have the opportunity to know God and accept him and you reject it, you will not be saved but recieve judgement.
Um, no, that has not been demonstrated anywhere in this thread.

you are gambling on the proposition that you do not need to believe but that God will let you into heaven regardless.
That is not a bet to make.
If there is no god, then there is no gamble. For unbelievers, there is no god.

yes with in the christian circle your way is paid by faith in christ. But that does not mean we continue sinning and breaking God's law.
Romans: Faith without works is in vain. But because works will never amount to enough, we are reliant on Faith alone. But if we have faith, it can be tested by our fruits. Yeah, the fruit of those who have true faith is good works, ie they carry out the will God, obey his laws.

But outside christianity, works is the main measure by which people are judged.

'Judge not, lest ye be not judged.' I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to the type of God who condemns living creatures to eternal punishment, whether or not he's sorry he 'has' to do it, just as much as it should apply to His flawed creations.

Frankly, I think this boils down to an inadequacy of imagination in the minds of those who dream these sorts of deities up. Intellectually unsophisticated religions like (many forms of) Christianity seem to struggle with the concepts they supposedly deal with. A specific example is 'infinite' or 'eternal'. More thoughtful religions, like Hinduism and Buddhism, cope with such ideas easily, indeed make them central to their philosophies. Most Christian attempts to cope with infinity boil down to something like 'really, really big/long/etc.'. So you end up with an intellectually offensive God in charge of an intellectually inadequate religion.

An infinite deity has no need of 'judgement', let alone 'hell'. The idea is asinine.

Nope cause I am not betting on anything
I am not trying to force a true belief “just in case”

I am just saying if there is a god he will understand … if not he does not deserve being worshiped anyways
its not if he deserves being worshipped its that we owe him worship

everyone owes God.
there is no humanism in heaven. only jesusism.

its not if he deserves being worshipped its that we owe him worship

everyone owes God.
there is no humanism in heaven. only jesusism.
So we were born to pay homage to a deity
That can’t be satisfying for a deity

Creating a whole species to do nothing but worship … they don’t you send them to hell they do you give them an infinitely longer life so they can continue worshiping you

Somehow beneath what I would think a god would want

Um, no, that has not been demonstrated anywhere in this thread.


If there is no god, then there is no gamble. For unbelievers, there is no god.
you have not proven there is no God, hence you are still making a gamble.

you have not proven there is no God, hence you are still making a gamble.
Nope she believes in a god just not yours

Interesting way to think about it :)

It just makes sence...if Christianity was the only way to belive...then what would happen to every other religion and the belifes of everyone else. Even Christianity has several different veiws in its self...for example...some Christians belive that once you ask forgiveness you always have your spot in heaven...while others belive that if you do a great sin you loose your salvation untill you repent.

you have not proven there is no God, hence you are still making a gamble.
I do not have to prove that something does not exist. That is impossible, anyway.

No god, no gamble.

'Judge not, lest ye be not judged.' I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to the type of God who condemns living creatures to eternal punishment, whether or not he's sorry he 'has' to do it, just as much as it should apply to His flawed creations.

Frankly, I think this boils down to an inadequacy of imagination in the minds of those who dream these sorts of deities up. Intellectually unsophisticated religions like (many forms of) Christianity seem to struggle with the concepts they supposedly deal with. A specific example is 'infinite' or 'eternal'. More thoughtful religions, like Hinduism and Buddhism, cope with such ideas easily, indeed make them central to their philosophies. Most Christian attempts to cope with infinity boil down to something like 'really, really big/long/etc.'. So you end up with an intellectually offensive God in charge of an intellectually inadequate religion.

An infinite deity has no need of 'judgement', let alone 'hell'. The idea is asinine.


it is written through scripture that God will pass judgment and every man and woman and child.

you have not proven there is no God, hence you are still making a gamble.

Maybe the way to avoid Hell is to die gloriously in battle, so the Valkyries will pick you out and lead you to Valhalla. Are you prepared to take that gamble?

it is written through scripture that God will pass judgment and every man and woman and child.
Psst he was saying scripture is wrong … you need to appeal to a different source to prove otherwise
Just quoting the text facet of one of the religions he is critiquing hardly proves anything

It just makes sence...if Christianity was the only way to belive...then what would happen to every other religion and the belifes of everyone else. Even Christianity has several different veiws in its self...for example...some Christians belive that once you ask forgiveness you always have your spot in heaven...while others belive that if you do a great sin you loose your salvation untill you repent.
the majority of christians hold the belief that if you sin, you lose your place until you repent. The christian life involves waking up each morning and repenting of all the sins you committed the previous day.

the majority of christians hold the belief that if you sin, you lose your place until you repent. The christian life involves waking up each morning and repenting of all the sins you committed the previous day.
How depressing

Maybe the way to avoid Hell is to die gloriously in battle, so the Valkyries will pick you out and lead you to Valhalla. Are you prepared to take that gamble?
a gamble is a gamble. I've made my bet and I'm sticking to it.

the majority of christians hold the belief that if you sin, you lose your place until you repent. The christian life involves waking up each morning and repenting of all the sins you committed the previous day.
I thought only Catholics do confession?

Psst he was saying scripture is wrong … you need to appeal to a different source to prove otherwise
Just quoting the text facet of one of the religions he is critiquing hardly proves anything
scripture is the sole authority on the matter. There is no other authority. If you reject the scripture you reject God.

That's a common misperception. It's based on the idea, contrary to what the Bible says, that hell is eternal. Hell is actually more like a cosmic eraser. If you don't make heaven in the final day, you don't burn for ever. Rather the fires of hell erase you from existence. It will be as if you never existed. Then when that is done, even hell itself will be erased from existence.
According to the latest catholic doctrine there's no eternal damnation. Boy, am I glad to be a catholic!

a gamble is a gamble. I've made my bet and I'm sticking to it.
I made the only “bet” I can then
Faith is not a choice it is something you feel with your heart

I cant force myself to believe something I truly don’t any more then I can just stop breathing … at a certain point I start breathing again, and at a certain point I just don’t have faith

So be it
A loving god if he exists will understand that … if not too bad for him

scripture is the sole authority on the matter. There is no other authority. If you reject the scripture you reject God.
So be it … I don’t find god anywhere in the bible (faith not literally)

the majority of christians hold the belief that if you sin, you lose your place until you repent. The christian life involves waking up each morning and repenting of all the sins you committed the previous day.
I belive that i'm saved unless i do a complete turn around and begin living a life of sin...not just...oh i drank a lot of alchohal last night but...if i became an alchohalic caring about nothing but alchohal and getting intoxicated...then it would require me rededicating my life
Just what i think...
may not be right in anyone elses terms

I thought only Catholics do confession?
both do it. The difference being that Catholics confess to a priest while the rest confess directly to Jesus himself.

To Upward Thrust: Christians don't see it as depressing. In fact we look forward to it. Look at it as a chance to focus yourself. but to focus you have to let go of sin, and to do that, you have to confess it and give it to God. Confession removes burdens and brings enlightenment.

it is written through scripture that God will pass judgment and every man and woman and child.

All sorts of stuff is written all over the place; it's no reason to go basing your life on it. The Scriptures you mention are just one tiny subset of global religious writing and thought -- the product of a fairly small, not terribly advanced near-Eastern desert culture who thought the world was flat and who envisaged 'God' as pretty much a big angry man in the sky. If you want to believe that, be my guest. It is, however, in my opinion, a mentally crippled image of the Big I Am. Even in orthodox Christian belief, God is supposed to surpass all understanding, to be so massively above and beyond human conception that who are we to question? etc. etc. etc. -- that's the usual theological dodge wheeled out every time an awkward question surfaces, no? So why insist on seeing Him as a stern, not to say psychotic, uberDaddy? If you're going to cook up a deity, at least make Him something other than just a bog-standard human being with mega-powers and an excess of bile.

According to the latest catholic doctrine there's no eternal damnation. Boy, am I glad to be a catholic!
hmmm. I was not aware the Catholics had changed on that matter.
My church also teaches there is no eternal damnation, just removal from existence.

I agree with the Jewish view that one gets in to heaven based upon our actions in this world regardless of belief. Belief provides us with motivation, but in the end is not necessary to get in to heaven. Furthermore, all sinners have a chance for repentance and Hell is not a place of eternal punishment, although not everyone will go to heaven.

It seems like a bit of a contradiction for God to go from judging solely on deeds and actions (or lack of) in the physical world to having it hinge on accepting Jesus, who was only revealed to a relatively limited area.

I'm a Christian with strange veiws for a Christian...but...anyways.
My thoughts on religion as a whole is that whatever you belive...will be your fate. If you think that good works will get you into heaven...then good works will get you into heaven. If you belive that asking genuin forgiveness from God will get you into heaven...then it will.

And i'm aware that fellow Christians will totally and underly disagree with my veiws...but..
I'm entitled to them.

and that's that.
I see you follow the great prophet Terrius Pratchettus:
"For after your deathe happeneth what you believeth in, so better believe in something nice lest you end downe in Helle"!

All sorts of stuff is written all over the place; it's no reason to go basing your life on it. The Scriptures you mention are just one tiny subset of global religious writing and thought -- the product of a fairly small, not terribly advanced near-Eastern desert culture who thought the world was flat and who envisaged 'God' as pretty much a big angry man in the sky. If you want to believe that, be my guest. It is, however, in my opinion, a mentally crippled image of the Big I Am. Even in orthodox Christian belief, God is supposed to surpass all understanding, to be so massively above and beyond human conception that who are we to question? etc. etc. etc. -- that's the usual theological dodge wheeled out every time an awkward question surfaces, no? So why insist on seeing Him as a stern, not to say psychotic, uberDaddy? If you're going to cook up a deity, at least make Him something other than just a bog-standard human being with mega-powers and an excess of bile.
there is no global religion.
The difference between scripture and the rest, is this, you can find Muhammed body in his grave, you can find Buddha's body in his grave. You cannot find Jesus body because he has ascended to God's side.
Buddha and Muhammed are both dead. Jesus on the other hand is alive.

there is no global religion.
The difference between scripture and the rest, is this, you can find Muhammed body in his grave, you can find Buddha's body in his grave. You cannot find Jesus body because he has ascended to God's side.
Buddha and Muhammed are both dead. Jesus on the other hand is alive.
That or he was made up … or at least the story surrounding him was …

well according to the bible the payment for sin ,,is death ,so if dead you have paid the price ,,then god will decide if you are to be resurrected , :)
I thought that hell was just that you are not resurrected , ;)

I see you follow the great prophet Terrius Pratchettus:
"For after your deathe happeneth what you believeth in, so better believe in something nice lest you end downe in Helle"!
i'm pretty gullable but you're joking right?

I forgot to mention that i think you have to genuinly belive whatever it is you think of the afterlife...and not just come up with some easy way out so you can live a wicked life and pay no consequences

Here is my problem. All of you say that for me to ascend into Heaven when I die, I need to repent for my sins, and accept Jesus and God into my heart.

My problem is that I have no faith. I can say the words "Pleae, God forgive me for I have sinned", but I wouldn't mean the words I say, because I cannot believe in a God. Try as I might, in my heart, I cannot say to myself that I believe in Jesus as my saviour, it would be a lie to say otherwise.

So were does that leave me? Apparently I'll go to Hell for eternity (or not for eternity, who knows), because through no fault of my own, I couldn't believe in something I could not see.

i'm pretty gullable but you're joking right?

I forgot to mention that i think you have to genuinly belive whatever it is you think of the afterlife...and not just come up with some easy way out so you can live a wicked life and pay no consequences

Not making fun, but...what if you aren't sure what you believe, or you're withholding judgment until you find out firsthand? Then what happens to you?

Here is my problem. All of you say that for me to ascend into Heaven when I die, I need to repent for my sins, and accept Jesus and God into my heart.

My problem is that I have no faith. I can say the words "Pleae, God forgive me for I have sinned", but I wouldn't mean the words I say, because I cannot believe in a God. Try as I might, in my heart, I cannot say to myself that I believe in Jesus as my saviour, it would be a lie to say otherwise.

So were does that leave me? Apparently I'll go to Hell for eternity (or not for eternity, who knows), because through no fault of my own, I couldn't believe in something I could not see.
A lot of people don’t understand that … we could no more actually believe at this point in our life then they could actively choose to not believe

The best I could do is going through the motions … and from what I know of the bible that is not enough

So were does that leave me? Apparently I'll go to Hell for eternity (or not for eternity, who knows), .

only if you read catholasism
other religions will say other things

Here is my problem. All of you say that for me to ascend into Heaven when I die, I need to repent for my sins, and accept Jesus and God into my heart.

So were does that leave me? Apparently I'll go to Hell for eternity (or not for eternity, who knows), because through no fault of my own, I couldn't believe in something I could not see.

Not according to Judaism. You go to Hell for an amount of time relative to the quality of your life; every sinful action or lack of action in your life is shown for all to see, and then the "alternate history" of what would have happened if you chose the righteous path for those actions is shown. The pain of seeing that squandered potential creates regret which enables the soul to join with God.

That being said, if your evil is so great that you did not do good (Hitler), then you will not get to heaaven and will be punished eternally. This is of course quite rare.

Belief is meaningless, action is everything.

there is no global religion.
The difference between scripture and the rest, is this, you can find Muhammed body in his grave, you can find Buddha's body in his grave. You cannot find Jesus body because he has ascended to God's side.
Buddha and Muhammed are both dead. Jesus on the other hand is alive.

There are, however, at least six foreskins belonging to Jesus, numerous umbilical cords and enough nails and pieces of the True Cross to build a replica of the Ark.

It's also worth pointing out that Islam and Buddhism are perfectly happy to concede that their respective founders were mortal human beings, so the presence of their corpses is neither here nor there. Christianity, on the other hand, eventually (after much arguing and an eventual vote, which passed by a majority decision) opted to give Jesus literal divine status sometime in the 4th century AD. Of course, religion being religion, those who disagreed didn't change their belief: they just set up their own versions of Christianity, and they all spend the next several centuries and more merrily excommunicating and anathametizing each other, each one claiming to be the One True Faith.

I'm afraid all I take from your statement is the fact that there's more physical evidence for Gautama Buddha and for Mahomet than there is for Jesus.

Not making fun, but...what if you aren't sure what you believe, or you're withholding judgment until you find out firsthand? Then what happens to you?
That's actually a really good question...
I never really thought of that...my faith is still developing and somethings i still remain confused about...and i guess this is one of them...i have no idea.

a complex thing is religion .but it is harder not to believe in god, than it is TO believe in god ,,if you don't and you are a thinking person, then how can you answer any of life's questions ,,but if you do believe then you can answer all of them ,,just's takes a bit ,,(alot ) ;) of research ,,

a complex thing is religion .but it is harder not to believe in god, than it is TO believe in god ,,if you don't and you are a thinking person, then how can you answer any of life's questions ,,but if you do believe then you can answer all of them ,,just's takes a bit ,,(alot ) ;) of research ,,
That’s neither here nor there … I hardly need to make a deity up to explain anything about life that I do not yet understand

That’s neither here nor there … I hardly need to make a deity up to explain anything about life that I do not yet understand

so the things you don't understand need to be thoroughly researched ,,good luck in your quest ,,

a complex thing is religion .but it is harder not to believe in god, than it is TO believe in god...
Only if you believe in god. If you don't believe in god, then it's harder TO believe in god.

so the things you don't understand need to be thoroughly researched ,,good luck in your quest ,,
Yup always on a quest for knowledge … it’s a beautiful thing to not be complacent just attributing everything unknown to a god rather then trying to understand it

a complex thing is religion .but it is harder not to believe in god, than it is TO believe in god...

I strongly disagree with the above statement, but even so, does the fact that Assumption A is 'easier to believe' than Assumption B make Assumption A true?

...if you don't and you are a thinking person, then how can you answer any of life's questions ,,but if you do believe then you can answer all of them ,,just's takes a bit ,,(alot ) ;) of research ,,

What 'life's questions' would these be? 'Why are we here?'; 'What is our purpose?'; 'What is the meaning of life?' and so on? Because there are perfectly good, non-God-based answers to these: 'Chance'; 'Who told you there was a purpose?'; and 'Who told you life has meaning? If you want a meaning, go and make one for yourself', for example. Or are there other questions that can only be answered from a theistic perspective?

seeing as we were talking about hell i have a question. Why do people believe in a pergutory?

Only if you believe in god. If you don't believe in god, then it's harder TO believe in god.

I cant see how the universe is in such control if there is nobody controlling it .
could be coincidence but that would be a long shot ,a very long shot .
all things could just be coincidence then ..mmmnnn possible but not probable
:)

I say it doesn't really matter, one way or the other. One day we'll all be dead and that will be absolute. We'll either be absolutely in hell, absolutely non-existant, or absolutely in heaven. And why won't it matter? Well, if heaven is eternal bliss would Yehovah allow us to retain memories of these, our crap-ridden temporal lives? What good is heaven knowing that people you loved all your life are burning down below? It's dreadful to imagine.

I need not explain why it doesn't matter if we puff out of existance.

So that leaves hell. Let's say that for some reason Yehovah and Yeshuah decide that we, the little children, should be allowed to retain our memories. What the hell is it going to matter if we are burning in hell? So, if I may theorize on the mind of the Tetragrammaton, then I'd have to say we won't remember anything that transpired in our temporal lives, one way or the other.

Therefore it follows that it might be "me" who suffers and burns forever, but I would not remember ever being alive, that in essence I would blink out of this life, dump core, and awake to worlds infernal. What then does it matter what I think and feel and say now? Or if, by a fluke of record keeping, I emerge into Paradiso, what good is it if I don't know how I got there? Sure, Yeshuah could say, "Hey, thanks for accepting me...BOW!" and I would, but I'd have to ask myself, "what is going on?" and that defeats the purpose.

So in my opinion, none of it matters. Live your life, die your death, and don't worry.

"A journey of a single step ends after a thousand miles...so stay put."

If you don't believe in Jesus but you don't believe in going to hell nothing will happen. The only thing which will happen is what you believe will happen.

This guy whom you refer to as "Jesus"

-- is it not RABBI Yehoshuah, a JEW, who said he came to help the JEWS ONLY, and compared the gentiles with dogs,

to which some of the "dog-women" said that "dogs eat crumbles off the table of the Jewish Master Race"?



I'm just curious.

NOT that I think that monotheism -- either Judaism, Christianity or Islam -- has done any goot to humanity at all,

except perhaps in the architecture of the places of worship, which may be (though are not necessarily) pleasing to the eye.

seeing as we were talking about hell i have a question. Why do people believe in a pergutory?

Largely because the Catholic Church tells them to. There is no scriptural foundation for such a belief, but it's certainly made a lot of money for Christ's representatives on earth.

I cant see how the universe is in such control if there is nobody controlling it .
could be coincidence but that would be a long shot ,a very long shot .
all things could just be coincidence then ..mmmnnn possible but not probable
:)
But the beauty of it is it doesn’t require any guess work or going beyond the realm of the observable

So in my opinion, Live your life, die your death, and don't worry.



in the ball park i would say :p

It's in Exodus when the people have made a Golden Calf Idol. (Also there were twelve spies one from each tribe but I'm sure you don't care that much) Yeah God changes his mind. So? God was royaly pissed, and Moses interseded for the poeple. God wasn't pissed at Moses and so he fulfilled Moses' request. That's not that hard. Before you slam the Bible, learn somthing about it. I'm thinking of a better example than the one you just gave.

Touché. I admit I have forgotten a lot of Bible. You can rest assured that if my sophomore year Bible teacher read that post, she would be fuming with me.

As for another example, perhaps a better yet more obscure one is First Samuel 15:11

“10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.”

seeing as we were talking about hell i have a question. Why do people believe in a pergutory?
Speaking as a catholic, the easy answer is because it is catholic doctrine. You live you sin and you might not have time (or inclination) to repent your sins while alive. But because God is forgiving you have the chance to atone for your sins through being in purgatory.

JPII actually changed the dogma on hell, eternal damnation and purgatory. The so called deadly sins are no longer, in the sense that when you commit them you are immediately and eternally damned. Hell is empty now, as all are in purgatory with the chance of ending up in heaven. You can be "eternally" damned, however, if you continue to stay away from the grace of god, i.e. stubbornly refuse to be saved.

Largely because the Catholic Church tells them to. There is no scriptural foundation for such a belief, but it's certainly made a lot of money for Christ's representatives on earth.
I don't get the second part with the money but still ...

The fun thing about the Christian churches and sects is that every single one has their own little slant on the whole thing. So that depending on what you grew up with, you'll find a lot of strange concepts. For you it might be purgatory, for others (like me) rapture.

In the end these are concepts made by man in the feeble attempt to interpret God's wisdom.

very interesting thread . I'm impressed , usually this kind of thing gets very heated ,very fast ,
but all have shown a lot of intelligence and reason ,
makes a nice change from some forums I have seen .. :)

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

As much as I cannot answer your question because I am far from being a Christian, I applaud you for bringing up questions about the (in my opinion) most contradictory but yet hugest religion in the world. I don't know why it's such a big religion but I will never be part of it.

I don't get the second part with the money but still ...

The fun thing about the Christian churches and sects is that every single one has their own little slant on the whole thing. So that depending on what you grew up with, you'll find a lot of strange concepts. For you it might be purgatory, for others (like me) rapture.

In the end these are concepts made my man in the feeble attempt to interpret God's wisdom.

The crack about the money doesn't really apply nowadays, sorry -- I'm a medievalist and I tend to lose interest around the 16th century :). I was referring to the practice of taking bequests (money, land, etc.) in order to pay for regular prayers, masses and so on to be said to supposedly help speed up the progress of an individual through Purgatory. It reached its blatant heights with the sale of Indulgences, literally get-out-of-Purgatory cards drawn up by the Church and flogged by the bucketload to the gullible public. Which, amongst other little indiscretions, eventually triggered the Reformation and the concomitant dulling-down of history.

Christianity isn't alone in having a tendency to schismatise. All belief systems ultimately reside within the heads of their adherents, and no two people hold precisely the same views or opinions. The problem Christianity has with this is that, like Islam and Judaism, it is a scripturally-based religion which, in its worst instances, can result in essentially an idolatry of the text. In these more extreme forms nothing can be allowed to contradict the Holy Writ (e.g. the Flat Earthers or the Geocentrists, who use their interpretations of Scripture to prove that the Earth is flat and/or at the centre of the solar system).

Unfortunately, because the Holy Writ has to be interpreted, various different interpretations are cooked up and the whole big fight over what's orthodox and what's not kicks off. Because many people tend not to have the wit to realise that, as you say, any man's attempt to understand the mind of an infinite God will inevitably be feeble -- basically, they're too stupid to realise how stupid and inadequate they must be -- they all insist that their interpretation is the absolute revealed Truth and everyone else is damned, accursed, cast out, evil, heretical, foolish, misguided, overdue for an appointment with one pointy instrument or another, etc. etc. etc.

Speaking as a catholic, the easy answer is because it is catholic doctrine. You live you sin and you might not have time (or inclination) to repent your sins while alive. But because God is forgiving you have the chance to atone for your sins through being in purgatory.

JPII actually changed the dogma on hell, eternal damnation and purgatory. The so called deadly sins are no longer, in the sense that when you commit them you are immediately and eternally damned. Hell is empty now, as all are in purgatory with the chance of ending up in heaven. You can be "eternally" damned, however, if you continue to stay away from the grace of god, i.e. stubbornly refuse to be saved.

But i thought doctrine was based on biblical teachings,can you show me where in the bible it talks about it?,because i'm a pk and to my knowlege there is none.

there is no global religion.
The difference between scripture and the rest, is this, you can find Muhammed body in his grave, you can find Buddha's body in his grave. You cannot find Jesus body because he has ascended to God's side.
Buddha and Muhammed are both dead. Jesus on the other hand is alive.

Can you find Elijah's body in his grave?

No, because he ascended to God's side.

So how is Jesus unique now?

Can you find Elijah's body in his grave?

No, because he ascended to God's side.

So how is Jesus unique now?
Reminds me of this contradiction



"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)

Reminds me of this contradiction

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)
*snort* That's no contradiction. Elijah was taken by aliens. I thought everyone knew that (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425074811/102-5035566-1780142?v=glance). ;)

*snort* That's no contradiction. Elijah was taken by aliens. I thought everyone knew that (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425074811/102-5035566-1780142?v=glance). ;)
Lol that I had never heard of lol

Lol that I had never heard of lol
I guess it helps to have grown up in the '70s.

Well said. It doesn’t matter how good you think you are, you are still sinful before God.

About the babies thing, as a Southern Baptist, I believe that all those who can not understand God’s message and all those under the age of accountability go to Heaven. Baptism is not a ticket into heaven, it is just a way to publicly show that you have accepted Jesus as your lord and savior.
And if you were baptised once in early childhood, and later realized you never believed in a "god" in the first place?

....And he engaged in legalized persecution of christians by suing to have all christian prayers and bible's banned....

Huh?

well according to the bible the payment for sin ,,is death ,so if dead you have paid the price ,,then god will decide if you are to be resurrected , :)
I thought that hell was just that you are not resurrected , ;)
actually that is partially. There are two ressurctions.
"Blessed are they who partake in the first ressurection for they will awake to eternal life. But cursed are those of the second ressurection."
The second ressurection is when the evil are ressurrected. But they rebel and are finally tossed into the lake of fire that erases them from all existence. Not just this plane of existence but from all planes of existence. It will be as if they never existed.
Hell is not forever, but its effects are eternal. You cease to exist and I speak not just of body but of spirit as well. The devil, when he finally gets tossed into hell, even he won't survive it.

Here is my problem. All of you say that for me to ascend into Heaven when I die, I need to repent for my sins, and accept Jesus and God into my heart.

My problem is that I have no faith. I can say the words "Pleae, God forgive me for I have sinned", but I wouldn't mean the words I say, because I cannot believe in a God. Try as I might, in my heart, I cannot say to myself that I believe in Jesus as my saviour, it would be a lie to say otherwise.

So were does that leave me? Apparently I'll go to Hell for eternity (or not for eternity, who knows), because through no fault of my own, I couldn't believe in something I could not see.
And a man came unto Jesus. And Jesus said, unless you have faith in me, you cannot enter the kindgom. And the man said "Lord help my faith"

For a second here let's forget the bible and let's go by the ideas of Dante Alighieri and his Divine Comedy which we all hopefully know and love. I will not go into his notions of pergatory and heaven, but will merely go into the Inferno part of his famous work.

The first circle is known as limbo. It is reserved for those people who did not accept Christ as their savior, but were still decent people. Down here there is no sufferingper se, but only the denial of god's glory for the rest of eternity.After this it gets more brutal.

Circle 2. Those overcome by lust, trapped in a violent storm, never to touch each other again, featuring Francesca da Rimini and her lover Paulo
Circle 3. Gluttons, face-down in the mud and gnawed apart by Cerberus
Circle 4. The greedy, who hoarded possessions, and the indulgent, who squandered them, forced to push giant rocks in opposite directions
Circle 5. The wrathful, fighting each other in the swamp-like water of the river Styx, and the slothful, trapped beneath the water
Circle 6. Heretics, trapped in flaming tombs (Cantos 10 and 11).
Circle 7. The violent (Cantos 12 through 17). These are divided into three rings:
-Outer ring: The violent against people and property, in a river of boiling blood
-Middle ring: The violent against themselves—suicides —turned into thorny black trees [Uniquely among the dead, they will not be bodily reincarnated after the final judgment. Where others will continue to occupy Hell (and Heaven) in corporeal (rather than merely spiritual) form, suicides—because they alienated themselves from their own bodies—spend eternity in the body of a tree, their own corpses hanging from the limbs.] Also punished in this circle are profligates, chased perpetually through the trees by ferocious dogs They are held here with the suicides because, during Dante's time, one's property is seen as an extension of one's physical body. Hence, doing violence to one's property is kin to suicide.
-Inner ring: The violent against God, art, and nature—blasphemers, sodomites, and usurers—in a desert of flaming sand where fire rains from the sky
Circle 8 The fraudulent—those guilty of deliberate, knowing evil—are located in a circle named Malebolge . This is divided into ten ditches:
Ditch 1: Panderers and seducers, running forever in opposite directions, whipped by demons
Ditch 2: Flatterers, steeped in human excrement
Ditch 3: Those who committed simony, placed head-first in holes, flames burning on the soles of their feet
Ditch 4: Sorcerers and false prophets, their heads put on backward on their bodies, so they can only see what is behind them
Ditch 5: Corrupt politicians (barrators), trapped in a lake of burning pitch Ditch 6: Hypocrites, made to wear brightly painted lead cloaks (Canto 23).
Ditch 7: Thieves, chased by venomous snakes, and after being bitten by the venomous snakes, turn into snakes themselves and chase the other thieves in return
Ditch 8: Fraudulent advisors, trapped in flames
Ditch 9: Sowers of discord, whose bodies are ripped apart, then heal, only to be attacked again
Ditch 10: Falsifiers, i.e. alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers, and impersonators. Each group is punished by being afflicted with a different type of disease
Circle 9. Traitors, distinguished from the "merely" fraudulent, in that their acts involve knowingly and deliberately betraying others, are frozen in a lake of ice . Each group of traitors is encased in ice to a different height, ranging from only the waist down to complete immersion. This is divided into four concentric zones:
Outer zone 1 (Caïna): Traitors to their kindred. Named for Cain.
Zone 2 (Antenora): Traitors to political entities, such as party, city, or country, such as Count Ugolino. Named for Antenor of Troy, who, according to medieval tradition, betrayed his city to the Greeks.
Zone 3 (Ptolomæa): Traitors to their guests. Named (probably) for Ptolemy, captain of Jericho, who invited Simon the High Priest and his sons to a banquet and there killed them. One of its inhabitants, Friar Alberigo, explains that sometimes a soul falls here before the time that Atropos (the Fate who cuts the thread of life) should send it. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a fiend.
Central zone 4 (Judecca): Traitors to their lords and benefactors. This is the harshest section of Hell, containing Satan, who is eternally consuming the bodies of Brutus and Cassius, and the head of Judas Iscariot, after whom this zone is named.

As for me I would have to say I'd end up at least somewhere in the 8th circle for my deeds in this life(Ilike to brag about this on a regular basis).

One thing people might want to take note of is that there is no mention of punishment for those who commit some sort of murder and that for some reason the worst punishment they can think of for a hypocrite is to make them wear "brightly colored lead cloaks", getting off pretty easy if you think about it in the long run.

And a man came unto Jesus. And Jesus said, unless you have faith in me, you cannot enter the kindgom. And the man said "Lord help my faith"
But in our case ... a dubious book that was written well after the death by un verified people with un verified relations with an un verified man that claimed to be the son of god (un verified) and completely turns around what we thought of as the true god at the time going against an even older tradition asks us to believe that he is the one and only or we are going to suffer eternal damnation
(not to mention he is not the only one making this claim)

I don't find it unreasonable to ask for help

But in our case ... a dubious book that was written well after the death by un verified people with un verified relations with an un verified man that claimed to be the son of god (un verified) and completely turns around what we thought of as the true god at the time going against an even older tradition asks us to believe that he is the one and only or we are going to suffer eternal damnation
(not to mention he is not the only one making this claim)

I don't find it unreasonable to ask for help

Can you verify the existence of Aristotle? Caesar? Confucius? Stalin? Bush? The neighbour next door? You can't if you put your standards about Jesus on these people. That is what faith is: to put your trust on something that cannot be verified physically. And Jesus has been verified emotionally and spiritually by millions around the world and throughout history, possibly more than the numbers that verify Aristotle. But you believe Aristotle existed and not Jesus.

Can you verify the existence of Aristotle? Caesar? Confucius? Stalin? Bush? The neighbour next door? You can't if you put your standards about Jesus on these people. That is what faith is: to put your trust on something that cannot be verified physically. And Jesus has been verified emotionally and spiritually by millions around the world and throughout history, possibly more than the numbers that verify Aristotle. But you believe Aristotle existed and not Jesus.

I think the reason why Caesar, Aristotle, and Stalin are considered more likely to exist is because numerous people from those time periods have made reference to them in literature.

I think the reason why Caesar, Aristotle, and Stalin are considered more likely to exist is because numerous people from those time periods have made reference to them in literature.

How can you prove that those scholars weren't plotting to make this person up? And their existence can't be verified today.

Millions then and today, from Japan to Cairo to San Francisco, from Prudhoe Bay to Auckland have all claimed to have experienced the power of God. Emotionally this verifies the existence of God, no? Emotion may be subjective, but with such a large number of people claiming it to be true and consistent throughout history, it could be objective knowledge.

How can you prove that those scholars weren't plotting to make this person up? And their existence can't be verified today.
Actually we can check the dates of the paper, look at the writting style, and the type of descriptions used to see if its fake or not.

Millions then and today, from Japan to Cairo to San Francisco, from Prudhoe Bay to Auckland have all claimed to have experienced the power of God. Emotionally this verifies the existence of God, no? Emotion may be subjective, but with such a large number of people claiming it to be true and consistent throughout history, it could be objective knowledge.

Patients have been given suger pills and told the tablets were morphine. They felt no pain even though they were not given morphine. The mind can do amazing things if it wants to believe hard enough.

Actually we can check the dates of the paper, look at the writting style, and the type of descriptions used to see if its fake or not.

Yes...what if the Greek scholars of the day just wanted to invent a character named Aristotle?

Patients have been given suger pills and told the tablets were morphine. They felt no pain even though they were not given morphine. The mind can do amazing things if it wants to believe hard enough.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...but millions of people? With consistency?

Yes...what if the Greek scholars of the day just wanted to invent a character named Aristotle?
Well then I supose you are using this same arguement when you are looking at the bible eh?

Yeah...but millions of people? With consistency?

How many of these claims have been looked at? I could say I feel the power of Odin everyday emotionally but your not going to believe me. Lets put this in another point of view. Lots of people everyday believe in the Muslim faith which comes in direct contradiction with the Christian faith and have felt Allah emotionally and spiritually. So whos claim is better then the Christian claim or the Muslim claim?

Well then I supose you are using this same arguement when you are looking at the bible eh?


No. Why? Because of the second part of this post.

How many of these claims have been looked at? I could say I feel the power of Odin everyday emotionally but your not going to believe me.

No, because only you say so.

Lets put this in another point of view. Lots of people everyday believe in the Muslim faith which comes in direct contradiction with the Christian faith and have felt Allah emotionally and spiritually. So whos claim is better then the Christian claim or the Muslim claim?

The Muslim and Christian faiths are actually similar in many many ways. One one small, but critical difference, is that Christianity claims that Jesus Christ the Lord came to Earth to die for our sins. Islam, nor any other religion, says nothing about God coming down to die. All the other gods are up in Heaven, telling mortals what to do, what to say (e.g. Mohammed in his desert cave when Gabriel, not even Allah, came to talk to him).

No. Why? Because of the second part of this post.
Looks like someone cant catch sarcasm when its posted.



No, because only you say so.
Okay good so you dont believe me. But you believe a book written thousands of years ago about a guy who walked on water and askes us to eat his flesh and drink his blood.


The Muslim and Christian faiths are actually similar in many many ways. One one small, but critical difference, is that Christianity claims that Jesus Christ the Lord came to Earth to die for our sins. Islam, nor any other religion, says nothing about God coming down to die. All the other gods are up in Heaven, telling mortals what to do, what to say (e.g. Mohammed in his desert cave when Gabriel, not even Allah, came to talk to him).
You didnt answer my question. What makes the christianity claim that god exists because of the emotional and spiritual contact by millions any more valid then the muslim claim?

Looks like someone cant catch sarcasm when its posted.

It was sarcastic? Lol...I'm too sleepy to get it. :D


Okay good so you dont believe me. But you believe a book written thousands of years ago about a guy who walked on water and askes us to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

You didnt answer my question. What makes the christianity claim that god exists because of the emotional and spiritual contact by millions any more valid then the muslim claim?
Did your god die for your sins? Did the Muslim Allah die for the sins of Muslims? Jesus died for ALL OUR sins. Perhaps numerous gods exist; who knows? But one and only one claim to have come down not to zap people with thunderbolts but come to love us.

Did your god die for your sins? Did the Muslim Allah die for the sins of Muslims? Jesus died for ALL OUR sins. Perhaps numerous gods exist; who knows? But one and only one claim to have come down not to zap people with thunderbolts but come to love us.

The question is simple and yet you still havent given me a straight answer. What makes the christian claim that god exists because of spiritual and emotional contact with millions of people any more valid then the muslim claim of that?

The question is simple and yet you still havent given me a straight answer. What makes the christian claim that god exists because of spiritual and emotional contact with millions of people any more valid then the muslim claim of that?

Because of the nature the Christian God operates is far more reasonable and consistent than how the Muslim Allah operates.

Because of the nature the Christian God operates is far more reasonable and consistent than how the Muslim Allah operates.

And you can prove this how? How is the Muslim god less reasonable then the Christian god? How is it less consistant? A minute ago you claimed that these two religions are similar in numerous ways yet now your saying that they operate in different ways?

And you can prove this how? How is the Muslim god less reasonable then the Christian god? How is it less consistant? A minute ago you claimed that these two religions are similar in numerous ways yet now your saying that they operate in different ways?

I've already posted an answer. Lol.

I said the religions are similar in many ways, but they operate differently because of one small, but critical detail: that Jesus came to die for our sins. Islam depends on some other central theme, but no other religion claims that "God came down as a human to die for our sins". That is why, I believe, that Christianity is "better" than Islam and that is why I am a Christian.

Don't be mad, lol. :fluffle:

all i can say is that if you believe in adam and eve then we are all sinners because in order for us all to be born of them we are all commiting insest in order to keep the world popul;ated which is a sin just think about it adam and eve gave birth to cain and abel one of them had a son therefore eve was seths mother and grand mother sick isnt it

I've already posted an answer. Lol.

I said the religions are similar in many ways, but they operate differently because of one small, but critical detail: that Jesus came to die for our sins. Islam depends on some other central theme, but no other religion claims that "God came down as a human to die for our sins". That is why, I believe, that Christianity is "better" than Islam and that is why I am a Christian.

Don't be mad, lol. :fluffle:

I'm not mad just confused at how you refuse to give a straight answer with proof. I mean I ask you a question you give me a vague answer with nothing to back it up. And then when I ask you to back it up you give me a repeat answer which really only covers the last part of the questions I have asked. I really dont care why you believe that christianity is better. I just want to know what proof you have that makes your claim more valid then Islam's claim.

I'm not mad just confused at how you refuse to give a straight answer with proof. I mean I ask you a question you give me a vague answer with nothing to back it up. And then when I ask you to back it up you give me a repeat answer which really only covers the last part of the questions I have asked. I really dont care why you believe that christianity is better. I just want to know what proof you have that makes your claim more valid then Islam's claim.

Sorry...it's 12 noon and I'm completely unawake and I'm feeling that my summer holiday is just a waste dump. Usually I'm not like this...sorry! :p

Okay. Let me try again. But I have to say your question is quite hard to pinpoint.

Basically, Christianity and Islam believe in the same God, just in different ways. Christianity begins with Jesus' death and resurrection, but Islam begins with Muhammed in a cave with Gabriel, and does not include Man's rescue by Jesus. Because of this fundamental difference, Christianity, to me, has a better claim of the nature of God than Islam.

How's that?

How can you prove that those scholars weren't plotting to make this person up? And their existence can't be verified today.

Millions then and today, from Japan to Cairo to San Francisco, from Prudhoe Bay to Auckland have all claimed to have experienced the power of God. Emotionally this verifies the existence of God, no? Emotion may be subjective, but with such a large number of people claiming it to be true and consistent throughout history, it could be objective knowledge.
There is just one problem. In early christianity, when the antichrists claim rich scholars, invented the bible, there were not exactly any scholars in the church. In fact, the church was under heavy persecution.

Sorry...it's 12 noon and I'm completely unawake and I'm feeling that my summer holiday is just a waste dump. Usually I'm not like this...sorry! :p

Okay. Let me try again. But I have to say your question is quite hard to pinpoint.

Basically, Christianity and Islam believe in the same God, just in different ways. Christianity begins with Jesus' death and resurrection, but Islam begins with Muhammed in a cave with Gabriel, and does not include Man's rescue by Jesus. Because of this fundamental difference, Christianity, to me, has a better claim of the nature of God than Islam.

How's that?
So you just like one story better then another
it is based off of how you feel about the stories and how they fit with your morals and personality right?

There is just one problem. In early christianity, when the antichrists claim rich scholars, invented the bible, there were not exactly any scholars in the church. In fact, the church was under heavy persecution.
Anti-Christs?

Everyone should have to visit hell just once. Just to see what they are missing .

So you just like one story better then another
it is based off of how you feel about the stories and how they fit with your morals and personality right?

At the end of the day, yes to a very large extent. Atheism is also a story, which says "I don't like no God."

But this particular story is far more consistent and credible than any other story that I've heard, so there. :p

At the end of the day, yes to a very large extent. Atheism is also a story, which says "I don't like no God."

But this particular story is far more consistent and credible than any other story that I've heard, so there. :p
Fair enough but in the end of the day the story appeals to you weather that is right or wrong to you it rings true ... it does not need proof because it feels true and that gives you faith in what it says

I can respect that

But I can not share it

But in our case ... a dubious book that was written well after the death by un verified people with un verified relations with an un verified man that claimed to be the son of god (un verified) and completely turns around what we thought of as the true god at the time going against an even older tradition asks us to believe that he is the one and only or we are going to suffer eternal damnation
(not to mention he is not the only one making this claim)

I don't find it unreasonable to ask for help
It is good that you don't find it unreasonable to ask for help.

But know that unlike all the others:
1. Jesus coming as a man was foretold by the old testament.
2. Jesus performed miracles and drove out demons. (some of the others may have done a miracle or two but none were able to drive out demons.)
3. Jesus brought people back from the dead.
4. Even the Roman soldier who oversaw Christ's execution declared that "truly this is the Son of God."
5. On the day Christ died, the sun suddenly darkened so that the sun was blotted out, and this was followed immediately afterward by a great earthquake.
6. At the baptism of Jesus, the multitude beheld the heavens themselves open up, and the spirit of God descending like a dove on Jesus, and the voice from heaven saying, Behold, this is my son, in whome I am well pleased."
7. When Jesus ascended into the heaven, it was not just the apostles who saw it, it was every one in Jerusalem.
8. Of all the prophets, scholars, and religious founders, only Jesus has been seen to have risen from the grave.
9. We know this from eyewitness accounts. Remember the gospels were influenced by people who were there on the scene.

It is good that you don't find it unreasonable to ask for help.

But know that unlike all the others:
1. Jesus coming as a man was foretold by the old testament.
2. Jesus performed miracles and drove out demons. (some of the others may have done a miracle or two but none were able to drive out demons.)
3. Jesus brought people back from the dead.
4. Even the Roman soldier who oversaw Christ's execution declared that "truly this is the Son of God."
5. On the day Christ died, the sun suddenly darkened so that the sun was blotted out, and this was followed immediately afterward by a great earthquake.
6. At the baptism of Jesus, the multitude beheld the heavens themselves open up, and the spirit of God descending like a dove on Jesus, and the voice from heaven saying, Behold, this is my son, in whome I am well pleased."
7. When Jesus ascended into the heaven, it was not just the apostles who saw it, it was every one in Jerusalem.
8. Of all the prophets, scholars, and religious founders, only Jesus has been seen to have risen from the grave.
9. We know this from eyewitness accounts. Remember the gospels were influenced by people who were there on the scene.


I am not going to bother a point to point ... all of them are hearsay that is verified no where
You rely all on the truth of that one book and its correctness will no validification

In the end the only truth you have is its appeal to you and your faith in it

I can respect that but I can not share it

To believe its true it is first required to have faith in it ... I don't and no proof that comes from a text that can not be verified and (as a last resort) I don't have a faith in I really can not hold as truth

Anti-Christs?
Antichrist:
Someone who denies the divinity of Jesus or that he is the only way to heaven.
You do not have to be a nonbeliever or even a nonchristian to be antichrist. For years, the catholic church was run by antichrists who replaced faith in christ with rigged ceremonialism that was counter to what christ taught. (then John Paul II came along and made some reforms to the catholic church and brought back nearer the true road).
Antichrist is also someone who claims to be doing something in the name of christ but is in reality decieving people for greed or for power.
There is also the antichrist as the main opponent of God himself.
But there are many anti christs in the world today. Even in the days of Paul and Peter there were many antichrists running around saying "don't worry, there is no such thing as sin, you will get into heaven no matter what you do." There were then and are now, many antichrists going around teaching an alternative route to God. And these two apostles warned the members of the church to beware of them.
It is not the main antichrist we need worry about today, but the many small antichrists.

Do not qoute the scripture out of context. .


oh, that's rich!

Quoting the bible without quoting it in 4th century Sanskrit to 5th century Romans is also quoting it out of context.

Antichrist:
Someone who denies the divinity of Jesus or that he is the only way to heaven.
You do not have to be a nonbeliever or even a nonchristian to be antichrist. For years, the catholic church was run by antichrists who replaced faith in christ with rigged ceremonialism that was counter to what christ taught. (then John Paul II came along and made some reforms to the catholic church and brought back nearer the true road).
Antichrist is also someone who claims to be doing something in the name of christ but is in reality decieving people for greed or for power.
There is also the antichrist as the main opponent of God himself.
But there are many anti christs in the world today. Even in the days of Paul and Peter there were many antichrists running around saying "don't worry, there is no such thing as sin, you will get into heaven no matter what you do." There were then and are now, many antichrists going around teaching an alternative route to God. And these two apostles warned the members of the church to beware of them.
It is not the main antichrist we need worry about today, but the many small antichrists.
Then you are not using the terminology

Not having faith does not make one an enemy


an·ti·christ ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nt-krst, nt-)
n.
1.An enemy of Christ.
2.Antichrist The epithet of the great antagonist who was expected by the early Church to set himself up against Christ in the last days before the Second Coming.
3.A false Christ.

The reason it wasn't written in arabic is because the people who wrote down his words, mainly the apostles, would have written it in their native tounge. And for the 4 books, at one of the councils i forget which one,they found that those 4 based on their word phrases and the times they were written were forgerys.

Right, and no apostles spoke English. So please don't quote me the bible in English, or it's out of context.

So you admit that some of the "Word of God" was disproven to actually be his words!

So much for Biblical infallibility.

I rest my case.

So you would rather work hard and fail then not have to do anything and succeed?, because that's what it comes down to.

um...yes.

I would rather work hard because my conscience tells me that is right. Even if i end up with no reward. The reward is doing what my heart, my god, and my conscience tells me is right. I don't have to be rewarded. Leave my space in heaven for someone who has suffered more and been loved less than i have.

If you are Christian because it's the 'easy' way, then i have especial disdain for your beliefs. It sounds to me like a spiritual "get rich quick scheme".

Doing the least for the most gain. Seems very selfish, not righteous at all. I don't want to go to Heaven if it's a place with a bunch of lazy, selfish, intolerant folks.

It also refers to false teachers

Easton's Bible Dictionary:

Topics: An'tichrist

Text: against Christ, or an opposition Christ, a rival Christ. The word is used only by the apostle John. Referring to false teachers, he says (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7), "Even now are there many antichrists."

(1.) This name has been applied to the "little horn" of the "king of fierce countenance" (Dan. 7:24, 25; 8:23-25).

(2.) It has been applied also to the "false Christs" spoken of by our Lord (Matt. 24: 5, 23, 24).

(3.) To the "man of sin" described by Paul (2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 8-10).

(4.) And to the "beast from the sea" (Rev. 13:1; 17:1-18).

I cannot speak for Christians, out of my respect for theirs and all other religions, but as a Catholic, we believe that if you have lived a good, moral life, and did not directly reject the Lord, you will go to heaven. You may however have to go through a stage known as "Purgatory", a purging process to rid you of your sins and purify you for heaven.

There is one way to test that. But you have only one life. Only one chance. Once you are dead, you cannot go back and do it over. Repentance in death is not accepted, cause then it is too late.
Are you willing to make that gamble?

yes.

i would rather take responsibility for my mistakes and my good works than put them off on some other dude's (Jesus') shoulders.

I work hard to make the right decision. I follow the conscience God gave me the best i can. God has to understand that. And i think it has more value than blind obedience.

I do good because i choose to from an open and willing mind, not because someone told me exactly what to do and how to do it.

Maybe that's why Jesus is referred to as a shepherd. Sheep will follow. It's what they do.

Right, and no apostles spoke English. So please don't quote me the bible in English, or it's out of context.

So you admit that some of the "Word of God" was disproven to actually be his words!

So much for Biblical infallibility.

I rest my case.
Just because it was translated into another language does not mean it is disproven.

Let me clean that up.

You are right that we cannot get into heaven by works. What I was saying in the above, is that if you have true faith, it will result in your striving to live a righteous life (striving to live by God's law, because faith will give you a desire to want to), too avoid a lifestyle that is sin.
Most christians know what it is I refer to.



yes, and so do most muslims and most buddhists and most jews and....

striving for god/good is universally understood, and not exclusive to christians. don't think you intended to mean that, but it merited pointing out.

Fair enough but in the end of the day the story appeals to you weather that is right or wrong to you it rings true ... it does not need proof because it feels true and that gives you faith in what it says

I can respect that

But I can not share it

Not exactly that. Feel is one thing. Rationality is also important in religion.

Not exactly that. Feel is one thing. Rationality is also important in religion.
I have never seen it proved rational without the base axiom of faith which I do not have

It is absolutly rational to you hence why the story appeals to you
But I am working from a different set of axioms

To me it is not rational

Look at it this way. Suppose some guy totals your car, and your insurance won't cover it. You'd sue him to get the money back. What if his brother came in and offered to pay for a new car for you?

We've all "totalled cars." We've cheated, lied, stolen, thought impure thoughts. And God cannot accept that. Yet, He didn't want to "sue." He doesn't want people to go to Hell. That's why He sent His son to "pay for the car." He sent His son, not to pay with money, but to pay with His blood.

Exactly! Couldn't say it better regarding the thread starting post, or however you want to say it:p

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I am a Catholic, and what I've been taught in Church and CCD is that if you led a morally good life you can get into heaven even if you did not worship Christ. And that if you lead a [very] bad life, even if you become a Christian, you will go to Hell. And if you lead a semi-bad [Minor sins] life you will go to Purgatory until you understand Christianity and try to act like a morally good person.

This is why I like Catholicism more than Protestantism. We base our dogma seems to be based more upon needing to live a good life to get into heaven, while most, if not all, Protestant religions say that if you "find Jesus" you will go to heaven. Sure we Catholics are a bit too strict, but we don’t let Nazi murderers into Heaven.

'Judge not, lest ye be not judged.' I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to the type of God who condemns living creatures to eternal punishment, whether or not he's sorry he 'has' to do it, just as much as it should apply to His flawed creations.

Frankly, I think this boils down to an inadequacy of imagination in the minds of those who dream these sorts of deities up. Intellectually unsophisticated religions like (many forms of) Christianity seem to struggle with the concepts they supposedly deal with. A specific example is 'infinite' or 'eternal'. More thoughtful religions, like Hinduism and Buddhism, cope with such ideas easily, indeed make them central to their philosophies. Most Christian attempts to cope with infinity boil down to something like 'really, really big/long/etc.'. So you end up with an intellectually offensive God in charge of an intellectually inadequate religion.

An infinite deity has no need of 'judgement', let alone 'hell'. The idea is asinine.

Can i get a Hallelujah?
:D

the majority of christians hold the belief that if you sin, you lose your place until you repent. The christian life involves waking up each morning and repenting of all the sins you committed the previous day.

^^the way Nazis get into heaven ;)

I have never seen it proved rational without the base axiom of faith which I do not have

It is absolutly rational to you hence why the story appeals to you
But I am working from a different set of axioms

To me it is not rational

But you ALREADY have faith - in other things. Extend this faith to God.

I can't remember what verse it was referring to, but i always liked the idea that

"Those who are saved pay for their sins on earth, while those who are not pay for their sins in the afterlife"

I think true Christians feel a deep remorse for every evil they are aware of committing. Therefore "forgiveness" isn't asking Jesus to please erase that bad mark on my record, but to remove the regret and anguish i feel for commiting such a deed.

One of the major problems that this post stems from is non-Christians think everyone who says they are Christian is one. That's as crazy as believing every college student makes straight A's (the other major problem is so many Christians aren't A students to begin with).

The main difference between Catholics and Protestants (or at least that mentioned in this post the most) is that Catholics believe that you do good deeds, therefore you are a Christian, while Protestants believe it to be the other way around.

I've always hated the whole "good person going to hell" arguement because its flawwed to begin with. When you say "I knew this person, he/she was a really good human being, but was not a Christian, so you're telling me your God is going to send them to hell?" the reply should always be "Who made you the judge of who is good and bad in this world? No matter what you think, you don't *know* anyone besides yourself."

there is no global religion.
The difference between scripture and the rest, is this, you can find Muhammed body in his grave, you can find Buddha's body in his grave. You cannot find Jesus body because he has ascended to God's side.
Buddha and Muhammed are both dead. Jesus on the other hand is alive.


Then Jim Morrison is alive, too?

I think a thousand years from now, there will be a religion that believes in Elvis.

But you ALREADY have faith - in other things. Extend this faith to God.
I cant force myself ... thats why it is a belief not just an idea it needs to come naturaly
To me it does not


We could get into an arguement all night about if what I think about life or deities is belief and it will go a hundred different ways so lets not bother

I do not believe a god is proveable (being beyond falsafiable) and I have not seen enough objective evidence that your or anyone elses peticular description is right
CIRTIANLY not enough to accpet yours or any other as the one true faith

God may very well be out there but I can not have faith in your god ...not only is he not logical to me he is not moral by my standards

In the end I do not have faith and cant force it ...

to look at religion mathematically, that is to look for proofs and logic, is like trying to come up with an equation for why you enjoy a certain work of art or why a song can make happy no matter what.

Sure, mathematics explains more and more, exceeding what we thought could be possible. Who knows, maybe one day we can apply math to art and music. It's not impossible to derive logical explinations out of religions such as Christianity either. Obviously now its not possible and in my opinion it will never be possible for a human to understand the complexity of God and the rules of the universe. You have to be secure with the idea that you are just a child and when your father pats you on your shoulder and says "don't worry about how or why, just accept it," you know that there *is* a reason for everything, you are just unable to comprehend it.

to look at religion mathematically, that is to look for proofs and logic, is like trying to come up with an equation for why you enjoy a certain work of art or why a song can make happy no matter what.

Sure, mathematics explains more and more, exceeding what we thought could be possible. Who knows, maybe one day we can apply math to art and music. It's not impossible to derive logical explinations out of religions such as Christianity either. Obviously now its not possible and in my opinion it will never be possible for a human to understand the complexity of God and the rules of the universe. You have to be secure with the idea that you are just a child and when your father pats you on your shoulder and says "don't worry about how or why, just accept it," you know that there *is* a reason for everything, you are just unable to comprehend it.
There are an awfull lot of daddies patting shoulders then whispering "accept my version of it ... or suffer eternal damnation"

There are an awfull lot of daddies patting shoulders then whispering "accept my version of it ... or suffer eternal damnation"

I was referring to God as the "father".... its kind of sad if you have been turned off to Christianity by the use of fear some people apply to their ministering.

While some of my favorite local religious speakers have talked more of the negative side of life, i also dont care for sermons involving a guy telling me how hot hell is.

It is good that you don't find it unreasonable to ask for help.

But know that unlike all the others:
1. Jesus coming as a man was foretold by the old testament.
2. Jesus performed miracles and drove out demons. (some of the others may have done a miracle or two but none were able to drive out demons.)
3. Jesus brought people back from the dead.
4. Even the Roman soldier who oversaw Christ's execution declared that "truly this is the Son of God."
5. On the day Christ died, the sun suddenly darkened so that the sun was blotted out, and this was followed immediately afterward by a great earthquake.
6. At the baptism of Jesus, the multitude beheld the heavens themselves open up, and the spirit of God descending like a dove on Jesus, and the voice from heaven saying, Behold, this is my son, in whome I am well pleased."
7. When Jesus ascended into the heaven, it was not just the apostles who saw it, it was every one in Jerusalem.
8. Of all the prophets, scholars, and religious founders, only Jesus has been seen to have risen from the grave.
9. We know this from eyewitness accounts. Remember the gospels were influenced by people who were there on the scene.


You are using the bible to prove itself.

I can prove Harry Potter exists if i only quote out of the 'Hogwart's Bible' and deny any other writings as fact.

Just because it was translated into another language does not mean it is disproven.
sorry, i was answering two different things there.

I meant, if four books were found to be forgeries, but for hundreds? of years they were believed to be the Word of God, yet they weren't, the concept of biblical infallibility is impossible, because the bible (parts of it) were already proven false.

But you bring up a good point. I was a translator for several years. In every step of a translation process, nuances of meaning are lost (and gained, too). The bible went through so many translations by fallible humans, and then through even more fallible interpretations...

The multi-level translation is troublesome for me. None of the original documents from which the bible was taken are written in Aramaic, which is what Jesus himself would have spoken.

Also, there is too much myth and symbolism included for me to take it all literally, like it's life or death. A quaint story for fearful minds, thats all.

Not exactly that. Feel is one thing. Rationality is also important in religion.


um, im confused now...

Isn't rationality the opposite of faith?

The premise here is that if you don't have faith in Jesus as the only way to heaven, then you go to hell. If you need rationalization, it wouldn't be faith.

am i confused?

You are using the bible to prove itself.

I can prove Harry Potter exists if i only quote out of the 'Hogwart's Bible' and deny any other writings as fact.Ahhh yes but the old testament is much older than the new testament wich can be(and has been) proven. So don't you find it slightly remarkable that one man fulfilled thousands of prophecies written hundreds of years earlier?

sorry, i was answering two different things there.

I meant, if four books were found to be forgeries, but for hundreds? of years they were believed to be the Word of God, yet they weren't, the concept of biblical infallibility is impossible, because the bible (parts of it) were already proven false.

But you bring up a good point. I was a translator for several years. In every step of a translation process, nuances of meaning are lost (and gained, too). The bible went through so many translations by fallible humans, and then through even more fallible interpretations...

The multi-level translation is troublesome for me. None of the original documents from which the bible was taken are written in Aramaic, which is what Jesus himself would have spoken.

Also, there is too much myth and symbolism included for me to take it all literally, like it's life or death. A quaint story for fearful minds, thats all.Aaand thats why I think there are so fewer sects in Islam, they keep the original language.

But you ALREADY have faith - in other things. Extend this faith to God.

And, assuming you aren't God, how can you say that my faith, though different than yours, is NOT in God?

I guess that's my main problem with people telling me im going to hell. It would be different if God Itself said, "hey, TM, keep it up and your'e going to hell." Then i would believe it.

But i am not going to believe it because YOU say its true, nor am i going to believe it because some buddies of Jesus said it's true and wrote it down. Nor am i going to believe it if some church official says it's true...

Because all of you and them are four-dimensional, mortal human beings, who can't even begin to comprehend the mind of god any better than i can.

Ahhh yes but the old testament is much older than the new testament wich can be(and has been) proven. So don't you find it slightly remarkable that one man fulfilled thousands of prophecies written hundreds of years earlier?

I don't find it at all hard to believe that the mythology that surrounded Jesus in the hundreds of years after his death incluldes walking on water, healing the sick, etc. Stories have a way of being embellished when you are in the business of propaganda. And let's face it, the Council of Nicea was a political meeting above all. They chose the myths that suited their agenda, and rejected other equally ancient texts. (i.e. the entire Nag Hamadi Library)

Myth grows spontaneously...You wouldn't believe the things some people attribute to Elvis. I'm tellin' ya...give it another couple hundred years ;)

The crack about the money doesn't really apply nowadays, sorry -- I'm a medievalist and I tend to lose interest around the 16th century :). I was referring to the practice of taking bequests (money, land, etc.) in order to pay for regular prayers, masses and so on to be said to supposedly help speed up the progress of an individual through Purgatory. It reached its blatant heights with the sale of Indulgences, literally get-out-of-Purgatory cards drawn up by the Church and flogged by the bucketload to the gullible public. Which, amongst other little indiscretions, eventually triggered the Reformation and the concomitant dulling-down of history.
Ok, I understand what you mean. I fully agree, just couldn't place it in a modern context. Growing up in the city where the Confessio Augustana was proclaimed to the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and the Peace of Augsburg (450 years ago) was signed, which ended the bloody conflict between protestants and catholics, I am well aware of the inglorious past of the catholic church in the middle ages.

Because many people tend not to have the wit to realise that, as you say, any man's attempt to understand the mind of an infinite God will inevitably be feeble -- basically, they're too stupid to realise how stupid and inadequate they must be -- they all insist that their interpretation is the absolute revealed Truth and everyone else is damned, accursed, cast out, evil, heretical, foolish, misguided, overdue for an appointment with one pointy instrument or another, etc. etc. etc.
Yes, sad, isn't it? I always think that it is not only stupidity, but also lack of faith. If you have faith that god knows what's really going on and that he takes everything everywhere into account (because why shouldn't he?) then you don't have the need to persecute people who don't share your faith because you don't feel threatened by them.

But i thought doctrine was based on biblical teachings,can you show me where in the bible it talks about it?,because i'm a pk and to my knowlege there is none.
Yes and know. The catholic church is, of course, built on the word of Christ and scriptures, but not exclusively, in the sense that the pope is seen as a direct successor of Peter. As such he has the power to decide on doctrines which become part of the official catholic creed. Although these doctrines are often based an scripture they don't necessarily need to.

Doctrines not actually based on scripture are, for example:
Immaculate Conception (which has to do not so much with the actual virgin state of Mary at the conception of Christ, as her being exempt from original sin)
Dogma of the Assumption "at the end of her earthly course, Mary was assumed into heavenly glory, body and soul" (Pope Pius XII)
Sacrament of Eucharist The Catholic Church teaches that at the Consecration of the Mass (when the priest says "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood"), the "substance" (essential reality) of the bread and wine is changed into that of the Body and Blood of Christ, while the "accidents" (attributes or appearances, such as taste, texture, size, smell, etc.) remain unchanged. This change is called transubstantiation.

And lots more ... :)

2. Jesus performed miracles and drove out demons. (some of the others may have done a miracle or two but none were able to drive out demons.)
I find your harping on demons quite worrying!

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

Believeing that you will go to hell if you don't believe Jesus is your lord and savior is what the Southern Baptists and Assembly of God churches want you to believe so that they can socially control you while they tithe you.

In societies lacking kings and dictators, religion is the next-best promoter of public docility.

By the way, one lesson I've learned in my life in the Bible Belt is that you simply shouldn't question one's faith. As illogical and contradictory as it can be, a man's very life essence is written in the book, and no amount of reason will shake him of his faith, but instead will spark a hostile argument.

The Catholic belief is that those who live good lives on Earth, while having invincible ignorance, despite their disbelief in the Christian God and Catholic doctrine, can be saved.

Ignorance
(Lat. in, not, and gnarus, knowing)

Ignorance is lack of knowledge about a thing in a being capable of knowing. Fundamentally speaking and with regard to a given object ignorance is the outcome of the limitations of our intellect or of the obscurity of the matter itself. In this article it is the ethical aspect and consequences of ignorance that are directly under consideration. From this point of view, since only voluntary and free acts are imputable, ignorance which either destroys or lessens the first-named characteristic is a factor to be reckoned with. It is customary then to narrow somewhat the definition already given of it. It will, therefore, be taken to mean the absence of information which one is required to have. The mere want of knowledge without connoting any requirement on the part of a person to possess it may be called nescience.

So far as fixing human responsibility, the most important division of ignorance is that designated by the terms invincible and vincible. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of "moral diligence". This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the obligation mentioned above is to be interpreted strictly and exclusively as the duty incumbent on a man to do something, the precise object of which is the acquisition of the needed knowledge. In other words the mere fact that one is bound by some extrinsic title to do something the performance of which would have actually, though not necessarily, given the required information, is negligible. When ignorance is deliberately aimed at and fostered, it is said to be affected, not because it is pretended, but rather because it is sought for by the agent so that he may not have to relinquish his purpose. Ignorance which practically no effort is made to dispel is termed crass or supine.

The area covered by human ignorance is clearly a vast one. For our purposes, however, three divisions may be noted.

Ignorance of law, when one is unaware of the existence of the law itself, or at least that a particular case is comprised under its provisions.
Ignorance of the fact, when not the relation of something to the law but the thing itself or some circumstance is unknown.
Ignorance of penalty, when a person is not cognizant that a sanction has been attached to a particular crime. This is especially to be considered when there is question of more serious punishment.
We must also note that ignorance may precede, accompany, or follow an act of our will. It is therefore said to be antecedent, concomitant, or consequent. Antecedent ignorance is in no sense voluntary, neither is the act resulting from it; it precedes any voluntary failure to inquire. Consequent ignorance, on the other hand, is so called because it is the result of a perverse frame of mind choosing, either directly or indirectly, to be ignorant. Concomitant ignorance is concerned with the will to act in a given contingency; it implies that the real character of what is done is unknown to the agent, but his attitude is such that, were he acquainted with the actual state of things, he would go on just the same. Keeping these distinctions in mind we are in a position to lay down certain statements of doctrine.
Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or of the fact, is always a valid excuse and excludes sin. The evident reason is that neither this state nor the act resulting therefrom is voluntary. It is undeniable that a man cannot be invincibly ignorant of the natural law, so far as its first principles are concerned, and the inferences easily drawn therefrom. This, however, according to the teaching of St. Thomas, is not true of those remoter conclusions, which are deducible only by a process of laborious and sometimes intricate reasoning. Of these a person may be invincibly ignorant. Even when the invincible ignorance is concomitant, it prevents the act which it accompanies from being regarded as sinful. The perverse temper of soul, which in this case is supposed, retains, of course, such malice as it had. Vincible ignorance, being in some way voluntary, does not permit a man to escape responsibility for the moral deformity of his deeds; he is held to be guilty and in general the more guilty in proportion as his ignorance is more voluntary. Hence, the essential thing to remember is that the guilt of an act performed or omitted in vincible ignorance is not to be measured by the intrinsic malice of the thing done or omitted so much as by the degree of negligence discernible in the act.

It must not be forgotten that, although vincible ignorance leaves the culpability of a person intact, still it does make the act less voluntary than if it were done with full knowledge. This holds good except perhaps with regard to the sort of ignorance termed affected. Here theologians are not agreed as to whether it increases or diminishes a man's moral liability. The solution is possibly to be had from a consideration of the motive which influences one in choosing purposely to be ignorant. For instance, a man who would refuse to learn the doctrines of the Church from a fear that he would thus find himself compelled to embrace them would certainly be in a bad plight. Still he would be less guilty than the man whose neglect to know the teachings of the Church was inspired by sheer scorn of her authority. Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or fact, exempts one from the penalty which may have been provided by positive legislation. Even vincible ignorance, either of the law or fact, which is not crass, excuses one from the punishment. Mere lack of knowledge of the sanction does not free one from the penalty except in cases of censures. It is true then that any sort of ignorance which is not itself grievously sinful excuses, because for the incurring of censures contumacy is required. Vincible and consequent ignorance about the duties of our state of life or the truths of faith necessary for salvation is, of course, sinful. Ignorance of the nature or effects of an act does not make it invalid if everything else requisite for its validity be present. For instance, one who knows nothing of the efficacy of baptism validly baptizes, provided that he employs the matter and form and has the intention of doing what the Church does.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII
Copyright © 1910 by Robert Appleton Company
Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight
Nihil Obstat, June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor
Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York

Source (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm)

sorry, i was answering two different things there.

I meant, if four books were found to be forgeries, but for hundreds? of years they were believed to be the Word of God, yet they weren't, the concept of biblical infallibility is impossible, because the bible (parts of it) were already proven false.

But you bring up a good point. I was a translator for several years. In every step of a translation process, nuances of meaning are lost (and gained, too). The bible went through so many translations by fallible humans, and then through even more fallible interpretations...

The multi-level translation is troublesome for me. None of the original documents from which the bible was taken are written in Aramaic, which is what Jesus himself would have spoken.

Also, there is too much myth and symbolism included for me to take it all literally, like it's life or death. A quaint story for fearful minds, thats all.

Not enough time at the moment but will respond later.

I was referring to God as the "father".... its kind of sad if you have been turned off to Christianity by the use of fear some people apply to their ministering.

While some of my favorite local religious speakers have talked more of the negative side of life, i also dont care for sermons involving a guy telling me how hot hell is.
I was turned off to the organization long before that

And the belief later on when things like salvation by faith alone did not fit with my morals (not to mention how it did not fit with my world view and a lot of other things )

Most of the major Christian religions, even Catholicism, agree that if a person is virtuous and follows the tenents of their religion, they will make it into heaven. That includes Hindus like Ghandi. Besides, Hell is a fairytale created to frighten the childish into behaving themselves.

Post #13 *snip*

So basically, if you're given the opportunity to believe the biggest load of crap ever concocted by some warped men from another time and place, and you fail to do so - you will spend an eternity burning in the flames of hell? Makes sense... :rolleyes:

Here's my take on the issue...

"You may have noticed that ... UFO believers are usually referred to as buffs, a term used to diminish and marginalize them ... They are made to seem like kooks ... who have the nerve to believe that , in an observable universe of trillions ... of stars ... [that] some of those planets may have produced life-forms capable of doing things that we can't do.

On the other hand those who believe in an eternal, all-powerful being ... are thought to be worthy, upright, credible people.

To my way of thinking, there is every bit as much evidence for the existence of UFOs as there is for the existence of God. ... At least in the case of UFOs there have been countless taped and filmed ... sightings."

--George Carlin

I have faith in me. I don't need a god, or his illegitimate son to "save" me. There is NO "heaven", NO "hell", and superstition has no place in my life.

Most of the major Christian religions, even Catholicism, agree that if a person is virtuous and follows the tenents of their religion, they will make it into heaven. That includes Hindus like Ghandi. Besides, Hell is a fairytale created to frighten the childish into behaving themselves.
I don’t know what sect of Christianity you are talking about but in general it is salvation by faith not works sorry

So basically, if you're given the opportunity to believe the biggest load of crap ever concocted by some warped men from another time and place, and you fail to do so - you will spend an eternity burning in the flames of hell? Makes sense... :rolleyes:

Apparently so.

but since the whole story is concocted, there isn't any hell any more than there is a real Funky Town.

so why do we get so mad when people tell us we are going to someplace that doesn't exist?

I think it's because we hate feeling like we are being judged worthy of hell by another person.




...and thank you Catholic Paternia, for that great text.
Ignorance of the nature or effects of an act does not make it invalid if everything else requisite for its validity be present. For instance, one who knows nothing of the efficacy of baptism validly baptizes, provided that he employs the matter and form and has the intention of doing what the Church does.


So if i do good in the same way that Christians do, with the same intention that Christians have, then it is treated with the same validity as if i believed in it.

cool.

Apparently so.

but since the whole story is concocted, there isn't any hell any more than there is a real Funky Town.
Get down! ..Next you'll be telling me there is no Margaritaville!

so why do we get so mad when people tell us we are going to someplace that doesn't exist?

I think it's because we hate feeling like we are being judged worthy of hell by another person.
I think the whole problem lies with us, with expecting it to be a place that exists. Perhaps it never was meant to be taken literally.

sorry, i was answering two different things there.

I meant, if four books were found to be forgeries, but for hundreds? of years they were believed to be the Word of God, yet they weren't, the concept of biblical infallibility is impossible, because the bible (parts of it) were already proven false.

But you bring up a good point. I was a translator for several years. In every step of a translation process, nuances of meaning are lost (and gained, too). The bible went through so many translations by fallible humans, and then through even more fallible interpretations...

The multi-level translation is troublesome for me. None of the original documents from which the bible was taken are written in Aramaic, which is what Jesus himself would have spoken.

Also, there is too much myth and symbolism included for me to take it all literally, like it's life or death. A quaint story for fearful minds, thats all.

There is a reason they are not in Aramaic. Most of the scribes and intellectuals at the time wrote in greek or latin. None of them wrote in Aramaic.

You'll bet your eternal future on the whole thing being nothing but an invented myth?

So basically, if you're given the opportunity to believe the biggest load of crap ever concocted by some warped men from another time and place, and you fail to do so - you will spend an eternity burning in the flames of hell? Makes sense... :rolleyes:
Hell is not forever, but its effects are. Your spirit will die and cease to exist if it goes to hell.

Refusal to believe will do the opposite of guaranteeing you a spot in heaven.

Hell is not forever, but its effects are. Your spirit will die and cease to exist if it goes to hell.

Refusal to believe will do the opposite of guaranteeing you a spot in heaven.
Prove it :p

Hell is not forever, but its effects are. Your spirit will die and cease to exist if it goes to hell.

Refusal to believe will do the opposite of guaranteeing you a spot in heaven.

I know i'm probably being stupid here as i have a lack of knowledge in this area but when St Augustine of Hippo said that if you live your life in a loving manner you still get into heaven, was he just being seriously misguided?

There is a reason they are not in Aramaic. Most of the scribes and intellectuals at the time wrote in greek or latin. None of them wrote in Aramaic.

You'll bet your eternal future on the whole thing being nothing but an invented myth?
Psst Aramaic is kind of like a spoken form ... it can be recorded with other charicter sets
Usualy hebrew but sometimes greek

Psst Aramaic is kind of like a spoken form ... it can be recorded with other charicter sets
Usualy hebrew but sometimes greek
You don't comprehend what I was saying. The people who spoke teh Aramaic tongue did not know how to read or write. That is why nothing was written in their language. To write in your language, you have to know how to write in the first place.

I know i'm probably being stupid here as i have a lack of knowledge in this area but when St Augustine of Hippo said that if you live your life in a loving manner you still get into heaven, was he just being seriously misguided?
He also said you had to believe that Jesus was the son God who did everything the Bible says he did.

He also said you had to believe that Jesus was the son God who did everything the Bible says he did.

Fair enough i'm just still trying to learn a lot more about this. Thanks for the correction

First off, I'm not trying to make enemies. I just have an earnest question on Christianity. If I do not believe in Jesus, as my savior and the reincarnation or manifestation or discombobulation of God, no matter how moral or good my life has been lived, then I am going to hell, right? So during WWII, when the Nazis were killing off the Jews- men, women , and children- all those people, even the babies, went to hell, whereas the Nazi leaders who converfed to Christianity (recorded) and were forgiven all their sins went to Heaven? Is there justice in that, and is that right at all?

I'm not Jewish and not pushing the religion or anything, but Judaism and many other religions teach that as long as you live an ethical life and do good you are destined for a good afterlife. Other than the earlier historical motivation for this salvation scenario in CHristinaty as a means of conversion, why does it stand up today? Why is still necessary and followed? This means that even people like Gandhi went to hell. And if even this is true, why did God go ahead and change his mind between the Old and the New testament?

I don't deal in matters of salvation. It's too big a call for me.

I don’t know what sect of Christianity you are talking about but in general it is salvation by faith not works sorry
As Docteur Moreau said, one of the sects is the Holy Catholic Church. I would say it's the biggest christian church there is, so its creeds matter in this discussion.