NationStates Jolt Archive

THANK U!
Again - you're welcome. I was in the same boat as you when I first started on my Spiritual Path, so I can understand some of the trials you're going through right now. :cool:

*laughs*I know a LOT about the Egyptians. I love the society, and my fiancee plans on being an archaeologist, and I've considered the same. As for being a Shaman..good on you. Not enough of 'em left, I say. I've actually recommended people to them before. No worries...I won't harass you about drugs. *grins*

However..a cautionary, but friendly note. Calling someone an "idiot" only puts them on the defensive, and is significantly less likely to listen to you, or anyone else with your viewpoints at that time, and perhaps even later on down the road.
Depends on the person. I call 'em like I see 'em.... ;)

Depends on the person. I call 'em like I see 'em.... ;)

Fair enough. Just so long as you do so infrequently, I doubt it'd lead to much trouble. I personally prefer to either attempt to educate the uninformed, or, if I'd feel too tempted to insult them, simply stay quiet it. The perfect example being the post after this one. I'd prefer to stay on the safe side.

I wonder, what compells us to use the word "witchcraft" when the much simpler and more descriptive words "ignorant superstitition" so well suffice?

*le bump*

Ok, I had to respond to this, as it seems a lot of you have the wrong idea of Christianity and powers.
God does have sole powers over creation. However, Satan (or whatever you want to call the fallen angel) has power to pervert creation to his own ends. He can take what is already there an manipulate it to cause the children of God to fall.
The first example is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God created it because without the possibility of rebellion, worship from mankind is not truly worship, but the only recourse. The tree was part of His perfect plan. Then, Satan came and enticed man to eat of the tree, using creation in a manner opposite of it's intented purpose in order to cause man to fall, in turn causing God to be pained at the loss of His children.
That is what "magic" is, the perverted or twisted use of God's creation to achieve a purpose outside of God's plan. If all the witches out there claiming to be using magic through God really were acting according to His plan, they wouldn't call it magic, which defies God's will, and rather the exercise of God's power.

If "God's" plan were so perfect, then Satan would never have become his accusor.

If "God's" plan were so perfect, then Satan would never have become his accusor.

True, but that's where they throw in the "Free will" thing. That God had to allow Satan a choice, just like He is said to have done with everyone else.

Man there are so many people that have assumed that the sterotypes of pagans...ie wiccans, druids, asatrud, and shamanisim are evil. People really do fear something that thye know so little about. Well if I'm going to hell for my sins(and I don't believe in hell or Satan) then I have three things to say 1.) One it's a dwon hill trip so it wont take me long to get there 2.) It's warm and I don't like winter 3.) I wont be alone becuase I'll be saving a seat for the rest of you!!!!! :p

Actually, there is documentation. Historians have names and accounts of events in Europe. As far as the situation between wise women/midwives and the doctors...this statement from the era should sum that up.


And of course, women weren't allowed into medical school at the time.

I wasn't denying that it happened. Just that it was a small part of the whole thing, rather then a concerted effort to keep women in their place. Such a theory has been put forward, with evidence, just that it isn't widely accepted. a significant minority of those accused were men (c.20%, though in some places men were in the majority).

And it is highly documented that the estates of accused "witches" were confiscated. The torturers were paid from the victim's funds. The estate paid for the cost of the torture, the torturers' meals, lodging, entertainment, and travel.

This would only really be important for those rare cases when the "witch" was important and rich, which was a fairly rare occurance. Generally the accused were poor (though not quite the poorest of the poor). This was more the case in places where the belief of Maleficium was dominant (over the Diabolical belief).

(Guiley, Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft, 341-43)

Ha, I actually have that book (though not with me), it was given to me as a gift, no idea why though. It is quite cool.

It is also unclear just how many were killed, but modern historians put the number between 40,000 and 200,000, most of which were women and Germans. (Gibbons, "Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt." The Pomegranate 5 (Aug 1998): 2-6)

Also: The Burning Times (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm)
Information on the Burning Times (http://paganwiccan.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=paganwiccan&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fme.essortment.com%2Finformationburn_rjpa.htm)

Interesting. The second one appears to be slightly hysterical, or at worst deliberatly misleading though

If "God's" plan were so perfect, then Satan would never have become his accusor.

(Not sure how true this is, but this is how it was explained to me.)

Satan isn't his [God's] accuser, he was our accuser. Like the prosecution in a modern day trial. God was the judge, and we are the accused.

Didn't a scottish king go beserk and order the execution of many so called "witches",too?
James I?

Not sure about the event that you speak of. But he was a strong believer in the existence of Diabolical witchcraft, I think he even wrote a book on it. So it would hardly be surprising.

Don't count me in that; I was raised Christian and have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. (Cure for insomnia: Book of Job. All those speeches.... ;) ) You are talking as if we are all the same mindset as you - and that is scientifically impossible. All of us worship the deity or deities (as in my case) that they have either been raised to worship or choose to worship.


You are not taking into account that "God" is a title for the Being who created our universe. I have found that many religions have different Names for "God"; I call "God" The One Who Always IS (or "The One" for short.) I --and many people of other religions-- do not believe in a personification of Evil. Evil does exist in many ways and forms.


You are wrong. Magick (not the illusionist's kind, btw, which is why I'm using Crowley's spelling of the word) is the manipulation of energy by a person using spells and/or rituals and/or the person's mind. Parapsychic abilities are, in a way, magick as they are the manipulation of energy via the mind. (Notice that I did not say "brain".) Prayer is your own magick; it is a way for your mind to talk to Christ, who is your chosen deity for permission to manipulate energies to your will. So don't give me this BS about magic being "satanic" or "of the Devil".

Did you even go to the Jim Taylor's essay on that website? You should as Jim is an Episcopalian (sp; one of words I can pronounce but can't spell!) and a moderator of the FIDOnet newsgroup "Interfaith." If you want to know how that essay managed to pop up on the web, it's because I uploaded the essay (with permission) into AOL's database at keyword PAGAN. I'm not sure if it is still there... but I digress. I strongly suggest that you read what Jim has to say as he has chosen to be "God's Own Fool", which is a vocation in that demonination of the Christian Church.

Next time, Falconus Peregrinus --do some research before you come out with statements like this. You will look less like an Idiot if you do.

Do your own research before you quote. Since you claim to have read the Bible, check the previous posts on this forum to find very explicite verses condemning witchcraft. And, no, prayer is not asking for "permission to manipulate energies". A true prayer (look to the Lord's prayer) consists of asking for forgiveness for rebellion and requesting that God's will be done through you. A true prayer isn't, "God, give me the power to . . . so I can . . .". Prayer is asking God to move in your life according to HIS plan, not yours. That's the key difference here. Whereas witches "manipulate energies to [their] will", Christians simply put their trust in God, His will, and His power.

Oh, and just because someone claims to be a Christian, even if they manage to gain a seat of power in the Church, that does NOT make them able to teach false beliefs as truth. Look to the letters to the churches in Revelation. There, you will find blessings to the churches which test everything and remove false prophets from their ranks and admonishments to churches which allow false teachers and hypocrits to lead them. If you want to debate with me on Christianity vs. Witchcraft, don't use false teachers of the present. Use the Bible itself.

Interesting. The second one appears to be slightly hysterical, or at worst deliberatly misleading though

Not so. Germany did kill the most witches... sad, but true.
The infamous "Spanish Inquisition" was mostly occupied finding and burning heretics at the stake, witches only occasionally crossed their paths.
France and England as well as Switzerland burned a fair number of witches over the centuries, but aqccording to numbers, Germany was the worst, 900 were killed between 1627-1631 in my own home town.

And yes, one of the motives was greed, as the possessions of the alledged witch were given in part to the church and in part to the accuser. No rich person would accuse a poor person of being a witch, of course, but a person that is even poorer?
Actually, the witch hunt in my home town was started by a bishop trying to save his finances... and they even burned the major at the stake. Nobody was save

Not so. Germany did kill the most witches... sad, but true.
The infamous "Spanish Inquisition" was mostly occupied finding and burning heretics at the stake, witches only occasionally crossed their paths.t
France and England as well as Switzerland burned a fair number of witches over the centuries, but aqccording to numbers, Germany was the worst, 900 were killed between 1627-1631 in my own home town.

Though I meant that it gives the impression (to me at any rate) that there was some unified front against them and that conceptions about what witchcraft actually was uniform across the continent. It doesn't differentiate between the two type of "witch hunting," endemic and epidemic. It also over plays the importance that the Inquisition put on torture, the Inquisition found out fairly quickly that torture was not an effective means to obtain true confessions. (Also it wasn't set up to just root out heresy, the Spanish Inquisition wass there to keep checks on recently converted Jews and Muslims to make sure they hadn't slipped back to their old religion).

And yes, one of the motives was greed, as the possessions of the alledged witch were given in part to the church and in part to the accuser. No rich person would accuse a poor person of being a witch, of course, but a person that is even poorer?

If greed was a main motive, why were most of the accused old and poor?

I'm sure it was in a few isolated cases, but not in all, certainly not in most.

Actually, the witch hunt in my home town was started by a bishop trying to save his finances... and they even burned the major at the stake. Nobody was save

Exception rather then rule. Though unsurprising.

Exception rather then rule. Though unsurprising.

You call 900 deaths in 4 years an exception?

You call 900 deaths in 4 years an exception?
Against a number where up to 200,000 might have been killed. Yes.

Anyway, I was talking about the nature of it (ie attacking the mayor).

btw, was a famous Witch hunter active there? (Sorry, I forget his name)

Against a number where up to 200,000 might have been killed. Yes.

Anyway, I was talking about the nature of it (ie attacking the mayor).

btw, was a famous Witch hunter active there? (Sorry, I forget his name)

Not as far as I know. As I said, the whole thing started out with accusations made to the one of the richest families in town. Although the bishop himself didn't make any of these accustations, documents exist that he came up with the idea and tried to organise it in order to restore his finances.
However, the thing soon got out of hand, with accusations being made all over town, the richer families fleeing the town very soon, along with the bishop. They actually built a special prison for those accused of witchcraft, as the regular prison could no longer hold them.
The reason why I quoted the mayor is that he managed to smuggle a letter to his daughter out of this prison, describing what was being done to him... nothing for the faint-hearted, I can assure you.
The name of my home town is Bamberg, in Bavaria

aqccording to numbers, Germany was the worst, 900 were killed between 1627-1631 in my own home town.


Your flag is Welsh and your name denotes an area of Dublin in Ireland. Can I ask which German town you are from that had all the witch-killings.

Not as far as I know. As I said, the whole thing started out with accusations made to the one of the richest families in town. Although the bishop himself didn't make any of these accustations, documents exist that he came up with the idea and tried to organise it in order to restore his finances.

Ooh, that's interesting. Just that the only times I have heard a worthy being accused was through torture of a maid or some other low social rank. I'll try and read up on it. I only just began to be interested in this part of Early Modern Europe.

The reason I asked about the witch hunter is that there was one who claimed that he found 900 in one place. Though if the Bishop was looking to increase his wealth it is doubtful he would allow a witchhunter to get in on it (I'll consede that these individuals were in it for the money, even if they genuinly believed in witches).

However, the thing soon got out of hand, with accusations being made all over town, the richer families fleeing the town very soon, along with the bishop. They actually built a special prison for those accused of witchcraft, as the regular prison could no longer hold them.
The reason why I quoted the mayor is that he managed to smuggle a letter to his daughter out of this prison, describing what was being done to him... nothing for the faint-hearted, I can assure you.
The name of my home town is Bamberg, in Bavaria

Actually, I may have heard if this, but before I became interested in the witch panic :(

Was the mayor called Johannes Junius (sorry, it was said to me, so I cannot remember the name properly, or know the spelling). Did the letter say

Innocent have I come into prison, innocent have I been tortured, innocent that I die. For whoever comes into the witch prison must become a witch or be tortured until he invents something out of his head. And God pity him if he cannot think of anything

?

::EDIT:: <snip>

::EDIT2:: Lost the actual link :(

Your flag is Welsh and your name denotes an area of Dublin in Ireland. Can I ask which German town you are from that had all the witch-killings.

Bamberg, Bavaria.

To Cambra West. Is it safe to assume that the area was Catholic (Bavaria is traditionally catholic right?)

Bamberg, Bavaria.

To Cambra West. Is it safe to assume that the area was Catholic (Bavaria is traditionally catholic right?)

I wasn't asking you. I was asking Cabra West. Furthermore, in the Middle Ages, ie PRIOR THE REFORMATION, all of Europe was Catholic, bar the Orthodox communities in the East.

Bamberg is about as Catholic as you can get.

I am from Erlangen, originally, which is not too far away.

I wasn't asking you. I was asking Cabra West.

So? I knew the answer, it was in one of his previous posts.

Furthermore, in the Middle Ages, ie PRIOR THE REFORMATION, all of Europe was Catholic, bar the Orthodox communities in the East.

The reformation started in the 16th Century right? The Bamberg witch trials were in the 1620's afaik.

So? I knew the answer, it was in one of his previous posts.

Furthermore, in the Middle Ages, ie PRIOR THE REFORMATION, all of Europe was Catholic, bar the Orthodox communities in the East.

The reformation started in the 16th Century right? The Bamberg witch trials were in the 1620's afaik.[/QUOTE]

I just found it odd to see someone with an Irish-designated name and a Welsh flag claiming to be from High Germany. Perhaps Cabra West could return and clarify him/herself?
If you can find a majority of historians to concur with an exact date for the start of the reformation, good on you. Many might suggest Luther's hammering of the articles. Nevertheless, you're looking at the late seventeenth century before Protestantism had spread to a notable geographic area throughout Europe, even if Calvin etc had propogated their beliefs beforehand, making the bulk of Europe catholic up until that era.
And when Cabra West returns to confirm or deny his/her Bamberg origins, we can debate more.

U CAN JUST TELL HIM TO BUG OFF! WE WILL NOT PUT OUR MAGICK TO BE TESTED! THATS TOTALLY OBSERBED!
Well, when discussing your "craft", proof that it actually exists helps if you want people who aren't extremely guillible (aka me) to believe that it even exists at all. :rolleyes:

T
I just found it odd to see someone with an Irish-designated name and a Welsh flag claiming to be from High Germany. Perhaps Cabra West could return and clarify him/herself?

Interesting indeed.

If you can find a majority of historians to concur with an exact date for the start of the reformation, good on you. Many might suggest Luther's hammering of the articles. Nevertheless, you're looking at the late seventeenth century before Protestantism had spread to a notable geographic area throughout Europe, even if Calvin etc had propogated their beliefs beforehand, making the bulk of Europe catholic up until that era.

Well the Peace of Augsberg was in 1555, so I think it is safe to assume that Protestanism had spread considerably in Germany before then.

http://www.germanculture.com.ua/library/history/bl_augsburg_peace.htm

As to exact time the Reformation started, it is irrelevent since we are simply looking at Germany, and since the Protestants and Catholics had fought for [insert whatever you think here], and the protestants had won recognition in 1555 my question regarding the religion of Bamberg, Bavaria isn't as silly as you made out :)

And when Cabra West returns to confirm or deny his/her Bamberg origins, we can debate more.

OK then :)

The reformation started in the 16th Century right? The Bamberg witch trials were in the 1620's afaik.


I just found it odd to see someone with an Irish-designated name and a Welsh flag claiming to be from High Germany. Perhaps Cabra West could return and clarify him/herself?
If you can find a majority of historians to concur with an exact date for the start of the reformation, good on you. Many might suggest Luther's hammering of the articles. Nevertheless, you're looking at the late seventeenth century before Protestantism had spread to a notable geographic area throughout Europe, even if Calvin etc had propogated their beliefs beforehand, making the bulk of Europe catholic up until that era.
And when Cabra West returns to confirm or deny his/her Bamberg origins, we can debate more.


Gee, sorry, folks, I was on my lunch break....
Ok, about the flag and Dublin:
I was born in Bamberg, Germany. I grew up there and lived there until I went to university. After that, I came to Ireland, to Dublin, as I couldn't get work in Germany. I chose the Welsh flag because Wales was the first part of the English-speaking world I've been to, which started my interest in the language and culture. Besides, I just love the image of the Pendragon...

As for Bamberg : Yes, it is as catholic as you can get. It has been a catholic Arch-Diocese (don't kill me for the spelling) ever since the 12th century. So the bishop responsible for the witch hunts was a cathoilic bishop.

As for the reformation, that started in the middle of the 16th century, the witch hunts in Bamberg took place in the 17th century, during the 30 years war.

1628 Trial of Johannes Junius, mayor of Bamberg, Germany, for witchcraft. All of the Burgomaster's or Mayor's were caught up in this vicious inquisiton. The Inquisition here at this time was led by Vicar-General Suffagan Bishop Friedrich Forner and the Prince-Bishop of Bamberg, Gottfried Johann Georg II Fuchs von Dornheim. Junius was named by a few including the Vice-Chancellor Dr. Georg Adam Haan. Junius, throught the entire ordeal, claimed his innocence until given the strappado torture where he told a wild tale, even naming others. He was tortured again when he did not name enough people to satisfy his torturers. Junius wrote his daughter of the events prior to his execution (in spite of his hands being crushed in the thumbscrews), where he provides the most damning evidence of the evil excesses the witch hunters used to obtain confessions and execute innocent people just to take possession of the victim's assets and property.

From http://groups.msn.com/TheGoddessPath/yourwebpage17.msnw

I wonder, what compells us to use the word "witchcraft" when the much simpler and more descriptive words "ignorant superstitition" so well suffice?
Because it is not a superstition, but an Art - something that can be learned. Superstition doesn't pack a punch; Witchcraft does, although you may not see immediate results.

I find this post of yours highly offensive; have you done any research into Wicca and/or Witchcraft at all?

Because it is not a superstition, but an Art - something that can be learned. Superstition doesn't pack a punch; Witchcraft does, although you may not see immediate results.

I find this post of yours highly offensive; have you done any research into Wicca and/or Witchcraft at all?
While his post was rude to some extent, he's right, IMO. Saying "so and so" will happen "eventually" and then given enough time it does...I'm not impressed. If you seriously think you can cast spells (or anyone for that matter), you are deluding yourself. Simply concentrating or BELIEVING so and so will happen can make you work harder to achieve a goal, not a spell. With enough time, if you cast a bad luck spell, something is bound to happen that's bad to the person. There is a reason that one mill is still up for grabs.

Do your own research before you quote. Since you claim to have read the Bible, check the previous posts on this forum to find very explicite verses condemning witchcraft. And, no, prayer is not asking for "permission to manipulate energies". A true prayer (look to the Lord's prayer) consists of asking for forgiveness for rebellion and requesting that God's will be done through you. A true prayer isn't, "God, give me the power to . . . so I can . . .". Prayer is asking God to move in your life according to HIS plan, not yours. That's the key difference here. Whereas witches "manipulate energies to [their] will", Christians simply put their trust in God, His will, and His power.

Oh, and just because someone claims to be a Christian, even if they manage to gain a seat of power in the Church, that does NOT make them able to teach false beliefs as truth. Look to the letters to the churches in Revelation. There, you will find blessings to the churches which test everything and remove false prophets from their ranks and admonishments to churches which allow false teachers and hypocrits to lead them. If you want to debate with me on Christianity vs. Witchcraft, don't use false teachers of the present. Use the Bible itself.

"Middle English preiere, from Old French, from Medieval Latin precria, from feminine of Latin precrius, obtained by entreaty, from precr, to entreat"

Obtained by entreaty.....means your asking for something to be given to you.

If you know the bible sooo well...how do you explain away all the contradictions....Better yet...I have a link for you. If and when you can answer all of these questions, then I'll continue to debate the issue with you.

Questionaire (http://www.angelfire.com/stars3/ashtah/email.html)

At this point, until you complete this questionaire, our discourse is over and I will not respond to any further postings made by you.

Gee, look what happens when I go away for a full 24 hour fishing trip and then sleep for 12 hours.
I have a whole lot to catch up on.

Many believe witchcraft is evil, but then there are people who are good. What do you think is witchcraft and why?
I'm a Christian, and the Bible says witchcraft, and all related arts, are evil. Therfore I think it's evil.

To answer the original question, in the past, believe in witchcraft caused enormous suffering, although I'd like to point out that the church got in volved with witchhunts comparatively late, there are ancient Roman reports on the killing of witches.
If people today want to blieve in witchcraft, I don't see any harm. I don't believe in it, as the majority of people in the developed world, but I believe in freedom of religion and to me witchcraft seems to be just that to some people

If people today want to blieve in witchcraft, I don't see any harm. I don't believe in it, as the majority of people in the developed world, but I believe in freedom of religion and to me witchcraft seems to be just that to some people
Thank you Cabra West.
You are right, there is a freedom of religious beliefs, I am a practicing Egyptian Pagan. people who are christians go on at me saying, "oh you shouldn't be doing that, that is evil, come back to the one true god, he will make things right again."
Truth is, there is no "one true god".
I don't say to my christian friends (and yes, pagans and christians can get along just fine) "what you believe in is wrong". I accept them for who they are, not who they pray to.
I was brought up in a very strict Church of England house, Sunday school every week from the age of 4 till I started asking questions at the age of 8 when my mother was told not to bring me again. I didn't think you could get expelled from sunday school.
I am now 29 and been following Paganism for a while but only recently dedicated myself to the egyptian path. This suits me more than any other religion out there and I have looked at a few.

Because it is not a superstition, but an Art - something that can be learned. Superstition doesn't pack a punch; Witchcraft does, although you may not see immediate results.

I find this post of yours highly offensive; have you done any research into Wicca and/or Witchcraft at all?


I ask the question again, with your response as evidence for the assertion in it.

What compels us to use the word "witchcraft" when the more clear and descriptive "ignorant superstititon" so well suffice ?

Yes, unfortanetly, very true. When the European colinies and American as well burned witches, but then didn't have enough proof in order to convit them. People still beleive that they cast curses and hexes on people; partly true. Some use Black Magick or magick that is used to hurt someone but then most people use White Magick or magick that use for good uses for other people and protection. Of corse, that sterotyping still exists...

Ugh. Perhaps instead of studying witchcraft you should spend more time studying in school. No one was ever burned at the stake in America for being a witch. In fact, no one that confessed to being a witch was ever killed...

i guess this is out of nowhere, but o well. I remeber i did read a book that this witch wrote about her life and i found it extremly interesting (sp?...sorry my spelling is horrible). I actually learned stuff. Like, witchcraft isn't evil, and the only time it is is when it's black magic....and witchcraft is used for good. Also, she said that wiccans are people who don't have family memebers that are witches but they practise witchcraft. I found this book pretty neat, i do forget the witches name ( i also have a horrible memory) so if by any chance anyone wants to get the book name and such just ask....if not than you can move on. Just thought i'd add this.

i guess this is out of nowhere, but o well. I remeber i did read a book that this witch wrote about her life and i found it extremly interesting (sp?...sorry my spelling is horrible). I actually learned stuff. Like, witchcraft isn't evil, and the only time it is is when it's black magic....and witchcraft is used for good. Also, she said that wiccans are people who don't have family memebers that are witches but they practise witchcraft. I found this book pretty neat, i do forget the witches name ( i also have a horrible memory) so if by any chance anyone wants to get the book name and such just ask....if not than you can move on. Just thought i'd add this.

Ok...just for clarification: Wiccan does not always equal Witch and vice versa. One can be both, but they are not mutually exclusive.

I ask the question again, with your response as evidence for the assertion in it.

What compels us to use the word "witchcraft" when the more clear and descriptive "ignorant superstititon" so well suffice ?

At this point you are just trying to cause drama and start a fight and it becomes pointless to even debate with you.

i guess this is out of nowhere, but o well. I remeber i did read a book that this witch wrote about her life and i found it extremly interesting (sp?...sorry my spelling is horrible). I actually learned stuff. Like, witchcraft isn't evil, and the only time it is is when it's black magic....and witchcraft is used for good. Also, she said that wiccans are people who don't have family memebers that are witches but they practise witchcraft. I found this book pretty neat, i do forget the witches name ( i also have a horrible memory) so if by any chance anyone wants to get the book name and such just ask....if not than you can move on. Just thought i'd add this.

One of the things I don't like about Wicca is that it's so widespread, people think it's the be all end all representative of Pagan beliefs/lifestyles and other related beliefs (though as I have stated, I firmly insist that Wicca is NOT Pagan, or even Neopagan). Anyways, it's entirely possible for you to be raised in a Wiccan or Pagan family, or raise your own. It's not necessarily a solitary lifestyle. In fact, in most cases, it's not.

Don't count me in that; I was raised Christian and have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. (Cure for insomnia: Book of Job. All those speeches.... ;) ) You are talking as if we are all the same mindset as you - and that is scientifically impossible. All of us worship the deity or deities (as in my case) that they have either been raised to worship or choose to worship.


You are not taking into account that "God" is a title for the Being who created our universe. I have found that many religions have different Names for "God"; I call "God" The One Who Always IS (or "The One" for short.) I --and many people of other religions-- do not believe in a personification of Evil. Evil does exist in many ways and forms.


You are wrong. Magick (not the illusionist's kind, btw, which is why I'm using Crowley's spelling of the word) is the manipulation of energy by a person using spells and/or rituals and/or the person's mind. Parapsychic abilities are, in a way, magick as they are the manipulation of energy via the mind. (Notice that I did not say "brain".) Prayer is your own magick; it is a way for your mind to talk to Christ, who is your chosen deity for permission to manipulate energies to your will. So don't give me this BS about magic being "satanic" or "of the Devil".

Did you even go to the Jim Taylor's essay on that website? You should as Jim is an Episcopalian (sp; one of words I can pronounce but can't spell!) and a moderator of the FIDOnet newsgroup "Interfaith." If you want to know how that essay managed to pop up on the web, it's because I uploaded the essay (with permission) into AOL's database at keyword PAGAN. I'm not sure if it is still there... but I digress. I strongly suggest that you read what Jim has to say as he has chosen to be "God's Own Fool", which is a vocation in that demonination of the Christian Church.

Next time, Falconus Peregrinus --do some research before you come out with statements like this. You will look less like an Idiot if you do.

Prayer is NOT magic. Prayer isn't manipulating powers. Prayer is asking God to manipulate the universe in some way. If it is his will, He will do it. If not, he won't. Thus magic can be "of the devil" and prayer not be. I for one don't think that you share the same mindset as me. I am just saying what I believe. I wouldn't try to assume that you share the mindset w/ me, and I won't even try to convert you. Trying that would be utterly against the laws of logic, as you would never be convinced.

You willing to bet your eternal soul on God inspiring the Bible?
Yup. Read Daniel. The prophecies are very accurate. In fact, read all the prophecies! They are either unfulfilled or they were fulfilled as the prophet predicted. This isn't possible unless inspired by God. I do believe that witchcraft is real. I believe that it is one of the many road that lead strait to Hell. If you won't be saved, I am sorry. But I can do nothing.

Ugh. Perhaps instead of studying witchcraft you should spend more time studying in school. No one was ever burned at the stake in America for being a witch. In fact, no one that confessed to being a witch was ever killed...

Think again...
http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/

Think again...
http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/

First of all, the very website you sent me to specifically states that those found guilty in Salem were hanged, not burned (with the exception of Giles Corey, who was pressed to death while they were attempting to extract a confession from him.)

Second, those that were hanged were those that were those that professed their innocence, not those that confessed. Confessed witches signed a confession and were released. Only those that proclaimed innocence were killed, as they were taken to trial. No trial was had for those that confessed.

First of all, the very website you sent me to specifically states that those found guilty in Salem were hanged, not burned (with the exception of Giles Corey, who was pressed to death while they were attempting to extract a confession from him.)

Second, those that were hanged were those that were those that professed their innocence, not those that confessed. Confessed witches signed a confession and were released. Only those that proclaimed innocence were killed, as they were taken to trial. No trial was had for those that confessed.

From what I know, he/she IS right.

First of all, the very website you sent me to specifically states that those found guilty in Salem were hanged, not burned (with the exception of Giles Corey, who was pressed to death while they were attempting to extract a confession from him.)

Second, those that were hanged were those that were those that professed their innocence, not those that confessed. Confessed witches signed a confession and were released. Only those that proclaimed innocence were killed, as they were taken to trial. No trial was had for those that confessed.

Parually true...

After someone said they were a witch, they were then an outcast because they betrayed God. Some people were even given the right to stone, (with rocks) and beat them up because of their religion. They then died a horrible(like a double edged sword)

P.S I was trying to prove that witches were as well killed in America, not being burned or at the stake.Srry :(

He, and thank you.

Parually true...

After someone said they were a witch, they were then an outcast because they betrayed God. Some people were even given the right to stone, (with rocks) and beat them up because of their religion. They then died a horrible(like a double edged sword)

P.S I was trying to prove that witches were as well killed in America, not being burned or at the stake.Srry :(

Of course they were an outcast. But I don't recall any of them being attacked, though it is possible. However, I'm skeptical of this.

He, and thank you.
You're welcome.

Parually true...

After someone said they were a witch, they were then an outcast because they betrayed God. Some people were even given the right to stone, (with rocks) and beat them up because of their religion. They then died a horrible(like a double edged sword)

P.S I was trying to prove that witches were as well killed in America, not being burned or at the stake.Srry :(

No confessed witch I've ever read about in history books was ever stoned to death afterwards. Yes, some were banished from the colony, but not all.

Also, none of these people were probably witches anyway...

No confessed witch I've ever read about in history books was ever stoned to death afterwards. Yes, some were banished from the colony, but not all.

Also, none of these people were probably witches anyway...

Actually, the only person who MIGHT have possibly been a witch was Tituba. All the others weren't. However, there is doubt that even she was one.

Actually, the only person who MIGHT have possibly been a witch was Tituba. All the others weren't. However, there is doubt that even she was one.

I'd say it was more likely, as a native, she practiced some type of shamanistic religion that was simply looked upon as witchcraft by the Puritans.

Ok...just for clarification: Wiccan does not always equal Witch and vice versa. One can be both, but they are not mutually exclusive.



At this point you are just trying to cause drama and start a fight and it becomes pointless to even debate with you.



Not at all.

The belief in magical powers is extremely primitive, it is ignorant superstition.

I'd say it was more likely, as a native, she practiced some type of shamanistic religion that was simply looked upon as witchcraft by the Puritans.

I agree, but there's never been any real proof that she was, if I recall properly.

Not at all.

The belief in magical powers is extremely primitive, it is ignorant superstition.

As I've stated before....you are making an ignorant supposition, and now I choose to ignore you.

As I've stated before....you are making an ignorant supposition, and now I choose to ignore you.

Question, is it possible that witches may have pyscic powers by spells (telekinesis, visions, etc.)?

Question, is it possible that witches may have pyscic powers by spells (telekinesis, visions, etc.)?

Who are you asking..?

Who are you asking..?

Anyone who can answer my question, thats all... :D

In that case...*ahem* Spells COULD perform the functions of such abilities, however, I don't think you could simply imbue yourself with whatever abilities you want via Magick. Those who have psychic powers, have them because they were born with them.

In that case...*ahem* Spells COULD perform the functions of such abilities, however, I don't think you could simply imbue yourself with whatever abilities you want via Magick. Those who have psychic powers, have them because they were born with them.

In that case, is anyone part ok the kenisis group, or people who move objects and elements around here? What types of kenisis r there?

In that case, is anyone part ok the kenisis group, or people who move objects and elements around here? What types of kenisis r there?

There's only one type of telekinesis. As for the former question, I don't have that ability, but have witnessed it once before. It's one of the less common examples of psychic abilities.

Has anyone here ever seen or read the play The Crucible? It's all about the Salem witch trials, and it talks about alot of the real cases. It includes Giles Corey and Tituba, whom you've mentioned. It's worth looking at.

Has anyone here ever seen or read the play The Crucible? It's all about the Salem witch trials, and it talks about alot of the real cases. It includes Giles Corey and Tituba, whom you've mentioned. It's worth looking at.

Yup. Did that my Junior year of high school. It was interesting.

Yup. Did that my Junior year of high school. It was interesting.


Yeah. We're reading it now. It's very eye-opening. To those who have read it, did any one else find themselves wanting to strangle the character of Abigail Williams?

Yeah. We're reading it now. It's very eye-opening. To those who have read it, did any one else find themselves wanting to strangle the character of Abigail Williams?

lol..and a few others.

lol..and a few others.
hehe. Puritan pricks.

hehe. Puritan pricks.

lol..hey..fyi, we get the word "fuck" from them. Was an acronym they'd put on the stockade above the person's head that stood for "For using carnal knowledge", I do believe.

My teacher got made at me for drawing during the film..so I switched to taking notes. She thought I was still drawing, till I showed her four pages of notes. ...I was REALLY bored.

lol..hey..fyi, we get the word "fuck" from them. Was an acronym they'd put on the stockade above the person's head that stood for "For using carnal knowledge", I do believe.

My teacher got made at me for drawing during the film..so I switched to taking notes. She thought I was still drawing, till I showed her four pages of notes. ...I was REALLY bored.

Taking notes for fun? Heh...you must have been EXTREMELY bored.

That is quite an interesting piece of trivia knowledge though. I must keep it in mind when I'm asked to go on some game show... :)

Taking notes for fun? Heh...you must have been EXTREMELY bored.

That is quite an interesting piece of trivia knowledge though. I must keep it in mind when I'm asked to go on some game show... :)

Oh, man..you've no idea. And I didn't even get extra credit...as you can imagine, I wasn't fond of the teacher.

lol..I'm full of trivia.

Oh, man..you've no idea. And I didn't even get extra credit...as you can imagine, I wasn't fond of the teacher.

lol..I'm full of trivia.

Aren't we all. Random useless facts are just so much more fun!

I say witchcraft is good(non-existant, but good). After all, have you read the Harry Potter series? They're fun to read!

Who the hell hasn't? They're only the most addictive books in the world. :)

I say witchcraft is good(non-existant, but good). After all, have you read the Harry Potter series? They're fun to read!

Egh. I'm not impressed with them, at all. In fact, I rather dislike them. Besides, their way of running about with wands and brooms and the like is most certaintly not an accurate view of the real thing.

Aren't we all. Random useless facts are just so much more fun!

I'm a walking encyclopedia/dictionary. I've corrected English teachers and history teachers...lol...The History and Discovery Channels are awesome.

Egh. I'm not impressed with them, at all. In fact, I rather dislike them. Besides, their way of running about with wands and brooms and the like is most certaintly not an accurate view of the real thing.



I'm a walking encyclopedia/dictionary. I've corrected English teachers and history teachers...lol...The History and Discovery Channels are awesome.


Ah well. I guess they're not for everybody.

Also, I concur... the History Channel is awesome. However, I have yet to become an avid watcher of the Discovery channel. :)

Ah well. I guess they're not for everybody.

Also, I concur... the History Channel is awesome. However, I have yet to become an avid watcher of the Discovery channel. :)

One word. Mythbusters. Hilarious, and informative.

Egh. I'm not impressed with them, at all. In fact, I rather dislike them. Besides, their way of running about with wands and brooms and the like is most certaintly not an accurate view of the real thing.

There's no such thing as an accurate view of the real thing on TV shows or movies (except like History channel and others like it).

One word. Mythbusters. Hilarious, and informative.

Hehe. I'll have to keep my eyes open. :eek:

(hehe... that little face was cool. I think I'll put him in again, just for kicks... :eek: Heh! I am so easily amused.)

hmm, well witchcraft is said to be evil. i dont know much about it, but if your using magic to do good, i say go ahead, just nothing evil or mischevious

1) Witchcraft is a religion. Same as Catholicism, same as Wicca, same as Buddhism and same as Islam.

2) I have yet to find any conclusive evidence that Witchcraft does anything at all. Just as I have no evidence that there is an omnipresent deity ruling over the skies.

3) As religions have good and bad sides, I cannot say that it is evil. But! I cannot say that it is good, either.

4) Ergo, I am forced to say that it is a neither good nor evil belief.

Despite what people may say in the defense of wicca and witchcraft, it must be remembered that, as far as logic and evidence are concerned, they are still, in the very plainest of words, superstitions. They are no more real, in my own opinion, than a Catholic god, or a Protestant god, or Vishnu, Allah or Buddha.

Just remember that. Once you whittle these things down to the superstitions that, I'm sorry to say, they are, you can't label them either good or evil as it is the people that practice these acts that make the belief, not the belief itself.

Therefore: It is impossible to say whether witchcraft is good or bad. It is possible to say Witch A is good and Witch B is bad, but, especially with a large, broad and very unspecific subject such as witchcraft, one can't justifyably say that the belief itself is evil.

Would tarot cards technically be considered witchcraft, or is it just some separate occult-related area?

There's no such thing as an accurate view of the real thing on TV shows or movies (except like History channel and others like it).

I'm sorry to say that the History Channel is a pretty mean propaganda machine, and I wouldn't trust it with my salt shaker.

Would tarot cards technically be considered witchcraft, or is it just some separate occult-related area?

That's what I'm trying to say about witchcraft, in the above post. It's far too broad. I know five witches that go to my school, and there are probably twice as many more that I don't know. But, if I were to ask all five what witchcraft was, there is no way I could get even similar definitions of what it is, or what's included in it. So, just include things in it that you would probably associate it with.

ok.

That's what I'm trying to say about witchcraft, in the above post. It's far too broad. I know five witches that go to my school, and there are probably twice as many more that I don't know. But, if I were to ask all five what witchcraft was, there is no way I could get even similar definitions of what it is, or what's included in it.

You have a point. It does cover a rather large spectrum.

Would tarot cards technically be considered witchcraft, or is it just some separate occult-related area?

That's another seperate area.

That's what I'm trying to say about witchcraft, in the above post. It's far too broad. I know five witches that go to my school, and there are probably twice as many more that I don't know. But, if I were to ask all five what witchcraft was, there is no way I could get even similar definitions of what it is, or what's included in it. So, just include things in it that you would probably associate it with.

That's because 1) A lot of the self proclaimed witches out there know little to nothing about the long standing practices and 2) There's no official "manual" that says you have to do such and such EXACTLY..some people take their own deviations.

That's another seperate area.
all-righty then.

I'm sorry to say that the History Channel is a pretty mean propaganda machine, and I wouldn't trust it with my salt shaker.

Well, at least it's a heck of a lot closer to getting things right than the rest of the crap that's on TV. Not to mention it's a lot more entertaining then the rest of the crap on TV. Anyway history is completely baised, so how can anything be taken as the 'truth'?


Would tarot cards technically be considered witchcraft, or is it just some separate occult-related area?

I've seen people of various religions use tarot cards, so I don't feel that's it's connected to anyone in specific. I myself never used them or had my cards read, I'd rather not know my future, takes the fun and mystery out of it.

Well, at least it's a heck of a lot closer to getting things right than the rest of the crap that's on TV. Not to mention it's a lot more entertaining then the rest of the crap on TV. Anyway history is completely baised, so how can anything be taken as the 'truth'?

Of course history is very biased, but just remember that the History channel puts a very heavy spin on some things. So it's really not even good propaganda..

Plus, there's the fact that all the History Channel airs are shows on WWII. I swear, my friends can't name a single moment in German history beside WWII.

That's because 1) A lot of the self proclaimed witches out there know little to nothing about the long standing practices and 2) There's no official "manual" that says you have to do such and such EXACTLY..some people take their own deviations.

Really, is that so? Well, what makes someone a witch then? Do they follow the longstanding practices to the tee? Or do they have their own special caste of it? Or what separates a 'real' witch from a 'self-proclaimed' witch? Just as you said, there is no manual for witchcraft, so what's to stop someone from calling themself a witch and starting to cast some 'spells'?

Well, at least it's a heck of a lot closer to getting things right than the rest of the crap that's on TV. Not to mention it's a lot more entertaining then the rest of the crap on TV. Anyway history is completely baised, so how can anything be taken as the 'truth'?




I've seen people of various religions use tarot cards, so I don't feel that's it's connected to anyone in specific. I myself never used them or had my cards read, I'd rather not know my future, takes the fun and mystery out of it.

I have used them before. I actually own a deck. However, it's one of those strange decks in the little box that you can buy in Walden books. It doesn't really say anything. It comes with one of those silly little books. When you look up what the cards meaning, it just offers fortune- cookie-esque advice. It's not a particularly good deck. Or maybe, I just don't know how to read them. Whatever. Anyway, I just wasn't sure whether they were technically "witchcraft" or not. I guess it's pretty broad.

Really, is that so? Well, what makes someone a witch then? Do they follow the longstanding practices to the tee? Or do they have their own special caste of it? Or what separates a 'real' witch from a 'self-proclaimed' witch? Just as you said, there is no manual for witchcraft, so what's to stop someone from calling themself a witch and starting to cast some 'spells'?

*shrugs* For me, the difference is in the amount you know. If you've simply rushed into the subject, trying to cast spells and the like, instead of studying, then you're not very credible, for me. That's what gives witchcraft and other related beliefs a bad name. I said they don't have to follow the beliefs exactly, I believe. While there may not be an official "manual" there is a lot of text on the subject, the rituals, the history, the often used tools, and the like. While I don't believe that ultimately the tools and rituals are necessary, I DO believe that in the beginning, they teach you patience, and help you to better understand the hows and whys of what happens. They also help you form getting your self into serious trouble, by making critical mistakes, or delving into things you're not ready for.

I seem to have touched a nerve with you. If I seemed contradictory, I apologize.

Well, I'm quite tired, so I think I'm going to call it a night. Happy posting to the lot of you.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.

Nope, you can't be Christian just by believingin God. You have to believe in Jesus and follow him too.

Otherwise Satan is a Christian.(Satan believes in God)

Question, is it possible that witches may have pyscic powers by spells (telekinesis, visions, etc.)?


No, because psychic powers and magical spells are fictional.

Just like space aliens.

They are primitive, ignorant superstition.

I object to this poll as the author neglected to add the category "silly".

Do your own research before you quote. Since you claim to have read the Bible, check the previous posts on this forum to find very explicite verses condemning witchcraft.
I bet you haven't heard the news: Every single time the word "witch" is used in the Old Testament, the Hebrew translation is "professional poisoner" --a/k/a assassin. You want me to drag out my New International (which, to me, is the best translation and the only one I understood thoroughly), I will.

And, no, prayer is not asking for "permission to manipulate energies". A true prayer (look to the Lord's prayer) consists of asking for forgiveness for rebellion and requesting that God's will be done through you. A true prayer isn't, "God, give me the power to . . . so I can . . .". Prayer is asking God to move in your life according to HIS plan, not yours. That's the key difference here. Whereas witches "manipulate energies to [their] will", Christians simply put their trust in God, His will, and His power.
I have found in my experience that very few so-called "Christians" do that. Spells and prayers are basically the same: It's a formula to align the mind to the Super- or Para-natural. And very few "churches" will listen to an intelligent, unmarried woman like me simply because of what Saul/Paul of Tarsus did.

Oh, and just because someone claims to be a Christian, even if they manage to gain a seat of power in the Church, that does NOT make them able to teach false beliefs as truth. Look to the letters to the churches in Revelation. There, you will find blessings to the churches which test everything and remove false prophets from their ranks and admonishments to churches which allow false teachers and hypocrits to lead them. If you want to debate with me on Christianity vs. Witchcraft, don't use false teachers of the present. Use the Bible itself.
oh, puh-leez. Why should I? Jim did all that in his essay, if you had bothered to read it. I know him and have talked to the elderly gent; that's how I know that he calls himself "God's Own Fool". Besides, I know that there is a law against using another's works as your own; I believe it's called plagarism....

You really are a bonehead, aren't you? I know when I'm dealing with a :headbang: person, and that describes you and your attitude. Never mind dealing with you; you're so closed-minded that you don't even consider new ideas. I don't go by the "Letters" in the Bible simply because they were written by men, not God or Christ. Since you're not going to listen to me, I'm not going to even bother to look at any further posts on this subject that are from you.

May you have an Interesting Life....

No, because psychic powers and magical spells are fictional.

Just like space aliens.

They are primitive, ignorant superstition.

Actually Psionic powers are real. My family has a history of a few of them.

I've never seen telekinesis. But visions and other clariviodince (spelling off) exist.

as a matter of fact i myself have experianced astral travel. Sometimes you have to step out side your box and look at whats really going on. That feeling you get when you walk into a dark old building. The weird sense of someone watching over your shoulder. Often these are the resting places of spirits, but in order for a spirit to reside energy is transplanted and you feel this energy. Your physcie picks up on every thing. Now i am not saying that if i dance around a cauldron singing boil boil toil & trouble there will be mageic, but i am saying it does exist and everyone can use it. Stop being close minded, your worse than catholics(just kidding catholics)

There's openminded, and then there's downright drafty...

While his post was rude to some extent, he's right, IMO. Saying "so and so" will happen "eventually" and then given enough time it does...I'm not impressed. If you seriously think you can cast spells (or anyone for that matter), you are deluding yourself. Simply concentrating or BELIEVING so and so will happen can make you work harder to achieve a goal, not a spell. With enough time, if you cast a bad luck spell, something is bound to happen that's bad to the person. There is a reason that one mill is still up for grabs.
And if I could get up there with my application, I'd have it --based on my own Talents, not my religion. (A little thing called "currency" is getting in my way. TANSTAAFL, after all.)

Here's something for you: While working at Dollywood via Vocational Rehab (ask me off-list why I was in that in the first place), one co-worker decided to start making sexual gestures in front of me as I was doing my job. I decided to cast a small spell, in self-defense, against him to get him to leave me alone.

He walked off the job in a week - right before he was going to be transferred to another part of the park. Proof enough for you?

"Middle English preiere, from Old French, from Medieval Latin precria, from feminine of Latin precrius, obtained by entreaty, from precr, to entreat"

Obtained by entreaty.....means your asking for something to be given to you.

If you know the bible sooo well...how do you explain away all the contradictions....Better yet...I have a link for you. If and when you can answer all of these questions, then I'll continue to debate the issue with you.

Questionaire (http://www.angelfire.com/stars3/ashtah/email.html)

At this point, until you complete this questionaire, our discourse is over and I will not respond to any further postings made by you.
W00t! Thanks for the link; I've bookmarked it in case another bonehead like Peregine Falcon (that's what his nic means) tries to convert me. Kudos to you!

Actually Psionic powers are real. My family has a history of a few of them.

I've never seen telekinesis. But visions and other clariviodince (spelling off) exist.


A lot of people claim that space aliens exist too.

I dont believe that they're right either.

I ask the question again, with your response as evidence for the assertion in it.

What compels us to use the word "witchcraft" when the more clear and descriptive "ignorant superstititon" so well suffice ?
You asked for it. Since the word "witchcraft" has already been defined by www.dictionary.com, here is the definition of "superstition" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=superstition) for you. The key word in that definition is irrational. I have met a few witches who practice their Art from a purely rational, scientific POV as well as an Athiest Witch. This is why I say that Witchcraft is an Art and not a religion.

Question, is it possible that witches may have pyscic powers by spells (telekinesis, visions, etc.)?
I knew this was going to come up sooner or later. Wicca & Witchcraft both bring those out of a person because of their emphasis on the mind.

My theory (no, not scientific, but possible) is that every human has the potential to develop psychic Talents/abilities/powers/etc. The reason that there aren't more true psychics out there (as opposed to the frauds who man those "psychic hotlines", etc) is because of one's upbringing and/or religion. It's up to each person to decide whether to block or bring out their own psychic Talents. I chose to bring mine out, partially because it was "normal" around my family (both my mother and her (late) mother are/were psychic in their own ways) and because I chose to. (Mom hates to talk about the subject.)

That enough for you? :cool:

Edit: Sometimes I forget to put words in....

You asked for it. Since the word "witchcraft" has already been defined by www.dictionary.com, here is the definition of "superstition" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=superstition) for you. The key word in that definition is irrational. I have met a few witches who practice their Art from a purely rational, scientific POV as well as an Athiest Witch. This is why I say that Witchcraft is an Art and not a religion.


What, pray tell, is the rational basis for the idea that you can exert supernatural control over things with magical spells?

You asked for it. Since the word "witchcraft" has already been defined by www.dictionary.com, here is the definition of "superstition" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=superstition) for you. The key word in that definition is irrational. I have met a few witches who practice their Art from a purely rational, scientific POV as well as an Athiest Witch. This is why I say that Witchcraft is an Art and not a religion.


By the way, lets compare the definitions.

witch·craft ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wchkrft)
n.
Magic; sorcery.




su·per·sti·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-stshn)
n.
An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.

A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.
Idolatry.

A lot of people claim that space aliens exist too.

I dont believe that they're right either.

:( You're mean! Well, at least we can all agree that the tooth fairy is real. Right? Right? Uh...guys?

witchcraft is real, or not. It is a matter of your point of view. If you believe in witchcraft, then for you it is real. If you think it's evil then for you it is evil. If you think it is an idiotic stupid idea, then that's true too. You get the point. I am under the belief that at this point in time, in this world, witchcraft is not prominent, maybe not even existent, maybe in another world it is existent. ;)

Would tarot cards technically be considered witchcraft, or is it just some separate occult-related area?
Tarot cards, rune stones, crystal ball...... all are tools to aid someone in divination. I myself use several different oracles.....

witchcraft is real, or not. It is a matter of your point of view. If you believe in witchcraft, then for you it is real. If you think it's evil then for you it is evil. If you think it is an idiotic stupid idea, then that's true too. You get the point. I am under the belief that at this point in time, in this world, witchcraft is not prominent, maybe not even existent, maybe in another world it is existent. ;)


Delusions and mistaken ideas do not overlap with or affect the real world.

No matter how much somone believes in magical spells, they are still fantasy.

What, pray tell, is the rational basis for the idea that you can exert supernatural control over things with magical spells?
The Mind. Haven't you ever heard of the adage "mind over matter"?

By the way, lets compare the definitions.

witch·craft ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wchkrft)
n.
Magic; sorcery.




su·per·sti·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-stshn)
n.
An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.

A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.
Idolatry.
I see that Stella was right - you just want to argue to build drama and aren't listening to me. You're just as much a :headbang: as Peregrine Falcon, therefore....

May you have an Interesting Life.

IOW: I am going to ignore you from now on.

The Mind. Haven't you ever heard of the adage "mind over matter"?


If only everything anyone used as an adege was true, the world would be a much different place.

:rolleyes:

Really, is that so? Well, what makes someone a witch then? Do they follow the longstanding practices to the tee? Or do they have their own special caste of it? Or what separates a 'real' witch from a 'self-proclaimed' witch? Just as you said, there is no manual for witchcraft, so what's to stop someone from calling themself a witch and starting to cast some 'spells'?

Example of a "self-proclaimed" witch

In high school I knew a group of three girls. (All three of which were rather...stupid...literally, as I'd seen their grades.) They stumbled upon a copy of Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft in the school library (which actually shocked me considering the school). By the end of the day, they had all come up with "Lady *****" names and were actually offering to work spells for other students for money.

Self-proclaimed witches.

They had no knowledge of the history of witchcraft, let alone the true act.

Example of a "self-proclaimed" witch

In high school I knew a group of three girls. (All three of which were rather...stupid...literally, as I'd seen their grades.) They stumbled upon a copy of Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft in the school library (which actually shocked me considering the school). By the end of the day, they had all come up with "Lady *****" names and were actually offering to work spells for other students for money.

Self-proclaimed witches.

They had no knowledge of the history of witchcraft, let alone the true act.

I've never heard that, and from just the title it sounds questionable. Although..maybe / should've done magick for money. ;)

You've a TG.

W00t! Thanks for the link; I've bookmarked it in case another bonehead like Peregine Falcon (that's what his nic means) tries to convert me. Kudos to you!

*Bows humbly* You're quite welcome. It always helps to have a rather large bag of goodies to dig into. :D

I've never heard that, and from just the title it sounds questionable. Although..maybe / should've done magick for money. ;)

You've a TG.

Hehehe...

And no...it's in no way complete...I actually have several other authors who's works I like much better. Christopher Penczak to name one.

Hehehe...

And no...it's in no way complete...I actually have several other authors who's works I like much better. Christopher Penczak to name one.

When I first started, I think I read at least a dozen few hundred page books on the history of the craft and its various connected topics. Even then, I had plenty of questions.

When I first started, I think I read at least a dozen few hundred page books on the history of the craft and its various connected topics. Even then, I had plenty of questions.

As have I. And yet there is still more to study. That's the wonderful thing about Paganism. It's always growing. There's always something new to look into. There's no stagnation.

witchcraft is neither good nor evil (although its practitioners can be either)

its the fantasy that one can affect the world through supernatural means. that words hold power. that rituals make things happen.

And obviously, this fantasy that words hold power and can change things has absolutely nothing in common with Christians praying for help when something goes wrong :rolleyes:

And obviously, this fantasy that words hold power and can change things has absolutely nothing in common with Christians praying for help when something goes wrong :rolleyes:

Hahaha...thank you. I've been to a local casino and have seen these elderly men and women sinking their quarters/dollars and hit for big money. I've heard more than one (when the attendant came to pay them) say "I prayed to God/Jesus that I would win, and I did! Praise God!" But no....prayer has nothing to do with asking God to cause something that you want to happen...no...it's all him. He must have really wanted these old people to win. Personally, I think he'd have greater things to worry about.

It's also sad to see all these Christians attributing magick and whatnot to the Devil because last time I checked, according to their beliefs, only God was supposed to have the power of creation...that is...to bring into being something that supposedly wasn't there before. So if they are saying these...powers...come from the Devil or Satan (whatever you choose to call it) then they are putting this entity on the same level as God...thus making him a Deity in his own right. That is in direct conflict with the Bible.

That's one thing a lot of Christians seem to ignore about their religion - the nature of Satan. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan was a fallen angel, as commonly believed, and there is definitely 'evidence' within the Bible to say that both good and evil come from God. For example;

I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

ETA: And yes, I realise it says "Originally posted by" - I just used the Quote formatting to seperate it visually

That's one thing a lot of Christians seem to ignore about their religion - the nature of Satan. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan was a fallen angel, as commonly believed, and there is definitely 'evidence' within the Bible to say that both good and evil come from God. For example;



ETA: And yes, I realise it says "Originally posted by" - I just used the Quote formatting to seperate it visually

God also says his name is Jealousy. I'm sorry. I have a big problem with such a loving caring God that is supposed to be about love being named Jealousy.

lol..hey..fyi, we get the word "fuck" from them. Was an acronym they'd put on the stockade above the person's head that stood for "For using carnal knowledge", I do believe.


That is quite an interesting piece of trivia knowledge though. I must keep it in mind when I'm asked to go on some game show... :)

Be careful what you read and believe :)

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.htm

(I'm quite surprised this hasn't been raised, maybe it has and I missed it, apologies if this is the case. And apologies for being a pedantic little ****.)

My teacher got made at me for drawing during the film..so I switched to taking notes. She thought I was still drawing, till I showed her four pages of notes. ...I was REALLY bored.

Fun with teachers. Sometimes I wish I was back in school, teacher-baiting was a fun past time in a boring class.

I have used them before. I actually own a deck. However, it's one of those strange decks in the little box that you can buy in Walden books. It doesn't really say anything. It comes with one of those silly little books. When you look up what the cards meaning, it just offers fortune- cookie-esque advice. It's not a particularly good deck. Or maybe, I just don't know how to read them. Whatever. Anyway, I just wasn't sure whether they were technically "witchcraft" or not. I guess it's pretty broad.

You might have a similar pack to mine, the little book is annoying, though luckily I have a nice big book with nicer drawings in it. I don't particuarly believe in Tarot cards, but I am very interested in the occult in general.

Also, re: The origins of the Tarot, I have been told that it comes from the Kabbalah, though I'm not quite sure the accuracy of this. I take a lot of things I read in books on the Occult with a grain of salt, especially parts regarding history.

God also says his name is Jealousy. I'm sorry. I have a big problem with such a loving caring God that is supposed to be about love being named Jealousy.

Maybe his parents were just slightly odd hippies.

I have a big problem with Christianity in general, although i'm not going to go into that here because it's rather off-topic. I'm currently exploring my own spirituality, trying to decide exactly what I believe and where I stand on certain issues, basically building up my own personal theism. One thing that really annoys me is how closed-minded people can be towards other people's beliefs, especially from those who profess to be Christian (erm, hello? What happened to compassion and forgiveness?). To me, religion is an intensely personal thing, and nobody has the right to condemn you for eternity for holding differing views. And now I really have gone OT, so i'll leave it at that :)

Be careful what you read and believe :)

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.htm

(I'm quite surprised this hasn't been raised, maybe it has and I missed it, apologies if this is the case. And apologies for being a pedantic little ****.)



Fun with teachers. Sometimes I wish I was back in school, teacher-baiting was a fun past time in a boring class.
*snip*

Aww...*hangs head*Well, how uninteresting. I usually am rather careful about believing what all I read.

As for fun with teachers..eh..it's harder to do in collge, unfortunately. I truly miss highschool..not for the people, but for the courses, and teachers. Learning for free is good.

Aww...*hangs head*Well, how uninteresting. I usually am rather careful about believing what all I read.

Something we are all, probably even the most cynical, guilty of at some time or another. At least it was with a a rather trivial point on the origin of a word, rather then the Da Vinci Code or some such garbage.

As for fun with teachers..eh..it's harder to do in collge, unfortunately. I truly miss highschool..not for the people, but for the courses, and teachers. Learning for free is good.

Yeah :D.

One of the reasons why I love the internet (even if there is some bullshit on it)

I would have liked a "misguided" option on this poll...

[color=indigo]

My theory (no, not scientific, but possible) is that every human has the potential to develop psychic Talents/abilities/powers/etc.

I believe that everyone is born with the ability for being Psychic. You just have to control the mind at a young age for it to develop.

I believe everyone is born with the ability to go psycho. You just have to feed them bullshit long enough.

I have a big problem with Christianity in general, although i'm not going to go into that here because it's rather off-topic. I'm currently exploring my own spirituality, trying to decide exactly what I believe and where I stand on certain issues, basically building up my own personal theism. One thing that really annoys me is how closed-minded people can be towards other people's beliefs, especially from those who profess to be Christian (erm, hello? What happened to compassion and forgiveness?). To me, religion is an intensely personal thing, and nobody has the right to condemn you for eternity for holding differing views. And now I really have gone OT, so i'll leave it at that :)

Hehehe..you should visit the JK Rowling thread and visit the link I post on Harry Potter....the fact that Harry is the anti-Christ and deliberately trying to push through a gay agenda by showing Lucious Malfoy (Arch-Angel Michael...I think...or Gabriel....according to the nutjob writing it, lol) his bare ankle. And when he's rebuffed his has a malevolent house spirit (Dobby) attack the angel.

ROFLMAO!

Seriously though...you should read it. :D

Here...I'll just give the link here to make it easier. :p

Harry Potter the anti-Christ ^_^ (http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter2.htm)

Go on....have a giggle. Hell, read the whole site and die laughing. :D

Winbar']I believe that everyone is born with the ability for being Psychic. You just have to control the mind at a young age for it to develop.

Yes, thats a very good point! I think I may be psychic too! I think I have a power called "Awaken." It means to see into the future, but in MY dreams...

Plz correct me if im wrong...

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.
You might want to seriously look at what each religion says about the other. I "thought" I was a Christian witch for a while, and then I realized that the two completely oppose eachother. You've got to choose. Christianity says that God hates witchcraft. You can't subscribe to both.

You might want to seriously look at what each religion says about the other. I "thought" I was a Christian witch for a while, and then I realized that the two completely oppose eachother. You've got to choose. Christianity says that God hates witchcraft. You can't subscribe to both.

Could u plz refer to the two quoets and i will fix this...

Could u plz refer to the two quoets and i will fix this...
Okay, so if you already know them, you know your arguments... that's great, but, while there are two verses that refer explicitly to the word 'witch' what about the inconsistencies of worshiping another god?

Okay, so if you already know them, you know your arguments... that's great, but, while there are two verses that refer explicitly to the word 'witch' what about the inconsistencies of worshiping another god?
And even if your stance is because of covenant, what about Galatians 5:20?
Which says, in context,
The wrong things the sinful self does are clear: being sexually unfaithful, not being pure, taking part in sexual sins, 20 worshiping gods, doing witchcraft, hating, making trouble, being jealous, being angry, being selfish, making people angry with each other, causing divisions among people, 21 feeling envy, being drunk, having wild and wasteful parties, and doing other things like these. I warn you now as I warned you before: Those who do these things will not inherit God's kingdom.

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

That's unfair. Stupid teenage programming and commercial profiteering has led to a rash of teens who claim they are wiccan and have no clue about, yet alone religious adherence to, wicca. However, to say that there are no rational, devout adults practicing wicca is wrong. There are more wiccans and pagens than you would think. The reason no one notices us is we look and act like everyone else.

That's unfair. Stupid teenage programming and commercial profiteering has led to a rash of teens who claim they are wiccan and have no clue about, yet alone religious adherence to, wicca. However, to say that there are no rational, devout adults practicing wicca is wrong. There are more wiccans and pagens than you would think. The reason no one notices us is we look and act like everyone else.


The main problem is the adolescent mentality required for somone to believe (or claim to believe) in magical spells.

Just a little something to help clear up the mistaken perception that the Burning Times killed thousands of witches; that was not the primary purpose of the Inqusition. The Inquisition was primarily a method of rooting out heresy within the Church.

The Inquisition was an order of the Catholic Church, authorized to seek out and destroy religious dissent and unorthodox beliefs (heresy). Formed in the 13th century, it was part of the Church's increasingly violent suppression of religious discussion. In 1022 the Church began killing heretics, usually by burning them at the stake. Crusades began in the late 11th century, and were accompanied by pogroms against the Jews. The Inquisition appears in the 13th century, and in the early 14th the Church starts to call Crusades against heretics inside Europe, like the Cathars. This trend continued until the Reformation, when the Protestant churches defected from the Catholic Church.

The Witch trials were quite different. Around 1320, periodic panics swept central Europe. Some group of evil-doers was trying to poison the wells, to overthrow the Christian Church, to kill all Christians. The groups "involved" in this conspiracy changed. First it was Jews and lepers, then Jews and Moslems and lepers. Later still, Witches "joined forces" with the Jews. The Witch trials were a direct outgrowth of these rumor panics. (Carlo Ginzburg's _Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbat_ covers this in detail.)

As a side note, there's a lot of confusion about the Inquisition's role in the Witch trials.

The Inquisition did very little Witch hunting. Before the 14th century, the Inquisition was specifically *forbidden* from investigating charges of Witchcraft (Witches were "victims of Pagan superstitions", not heretics who sought to undermine the Church's teachings). From around 1300 - 1500 they did kill Witches, but not very many. As late as 1484, the author of the _Malleus Maleficarum_ complained that he couldn't get his fellow inquisitors to cooperate with his Witch hunts. By 1500 the Inquisition turned its attention to early Protestant groups. During the height of the Burning Times (1550-1650) the Inquisition only existed in two countries: Spain and Italy, both of which had low death tolls. The Spanish Inquisition in fact had the best acquital record, killing far less than 1% of all accused Witches!

So where does the image of the malevolent, Witch hunting inquisitor come from? From a forgery and from a common translation error.

A 19th century forger, Etienne Leon de Lamothe Langon, wrote a book called "The History of the Inquisition in France" in which he claimed that the French Inquisition launched the first massive Witch hunts in southern France in the early 1300's. Centered in Toulousse and Carcasonne, these were lethal affairs where as many as 400 women were killed in one day. Because of this book, for almost 200 years scholars assumed that the rise of the Witch trials must tie into the Cathar persecutions (which occurred in the same area). In 1972, two scholars uncovered Lamothe Langon's forgery, and this profoundly changed our view of the early history of Witch hunting. (I'll skip the details on the forgery -- unless you're interested.) However this forgery continues to have a notable impact on the Neo-Pagan community, which often cites that non-existant "400 in one day" trial.

The second problem is, missing the difference between a "trial by the Inquisition" and "a trial by inquisition." The Inquisition was a branch of the Church. It created a legal procedure, called the inquisitorial procedure, which was adopted by most courts throughout Europe -- both religious courts and non-religious courts. The new type of trial was called "an inquisition" (questioning). Since almost all courts used the inquisitorial system, almost all Witch trials were done "by inquisition." This led many early scholars to erroneously assume that the Inquisition itself was the primary force for Witch hunting. You'll still see this error in later books, though. Rossell Hope Robbins' _The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology_ makes this mistake repeatedly.

I'm a witch.

I'm not a wiccan (far to much constrictiveness-"oh my goddess I put the athame down the wrong way the worlds going to end!!!!!!!")

I'm a hedge-witch which is basically a lot more informal and focuses less on ritual and more on being close to nature.

I actually had a girl when i was at school run screaming from the room shouting "a witch a witch" which amused me no end lol.

warlock means traitor or oathbreaker as was used against men as it was felt they had betrayed or broken an oath to god and turned theirs back on him. there fore it isn't the corect term for a male witch.

and a wizard/sorceror are actually different aspects focusing entirely on ritual and controlling the world whereas witchcraft is more about flowing with nature and trying to find the right balance.

world wide witchcraft I know you not the only caholic witch I've head of. A guy who i used to ork ith had a friend who was a nun and a witch.

Christianity says that God hates witchcraft.

Yes, thanks to King James. His translation of the Bible was cleverly worded to give Biblical condemnation to things he personally disliked, witches in particular.

For example, the oft-quoted verse in Exodus (22:18), "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." The original word there would be accurately translated as "poisoner" which is quite different from the word "witch."

Winbar']I believe that everyone is born with the ability for being Psychic. You just have to control the mind at a young age for it to develop.
Not necessarily; many Talents tend to crop up at Puberty. I've met many a psychic teen online and reassured them that no, "you are not going crazy....." :> I know that mine did, and I've had to learn all on my own just how to control them. Not easy!

And even if your stance is because of covenant, what about Galatians 5:20?
Which says, in context,
The wrong things the sinful self does are clear: being sexually unfaithful, not being pure, taking part in sexual sins, 20 worshiping gods, doing witchcraft, hating, making trouble, being jealous, being angry, being selfish, making people angry with each other, causing divisions among people, 21 feeling envy, being drunk, having wild and wasteful parties, and doing other things like these. I warn you now as I warned you before: Those who do these things will not inherit God's kingdom.
Saul/Paul of Tarsis wrote this, not Christ. I tend to go by what Christ said and did rather than one man who could have been affected by dimentia.

I just wish more Christians would realize that to be a Christian, one follows Christ, not any of His disciples. :rolleyes:

Yes, thanks to King James. His translation of the Bible was cleverly worded to give Biblical condemnation to things he personally disliked, witches in particular.

For example, the oft-quoted verse in Exodus (22:18), "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." The original word there would be accurately translated as "poisoner" which is quite different from the word "witch."
"Professional poisoner" is what I heard that Hebrew word was - someone who was paid to kill another person. That's why I tend to retranslate that verse as "Do not allow an assassin to live"....

But you're right about the King James. Parents gave me one of those, and I had problems for several years trying to read the thing. It was only when I got my hands on a New International Version that I understood what was there.

Just a little something to help clear up the mistaken perception that the Burning Times killed thousands of witches; that was not the primary purpose of the Inqusition. The Inquisition was primarily a method of rooting out heresy within the Church.

Oh yes...heresy...

Heresy from the latin word hairesis.

hairesis: choice

heretic: one who makes a choice.

Christian writer Irenaeus in 180c.e. produced a massive five-volume work entitled "Against Heresies." A contemporary of Irenaeus, Tertullian pointed out that heresy literally means choice and states that making choices is evil and suggested that church leaders that wanted to stamp out heresy not allow people to ask questions, for it was "questions that make people heretics." (Pagels, "The Origin of Satan" 163)

Well....there goes that whole "free will" thing, huh?

Yes, thanks to King James. His translation of the Bible was cleverly worded to give Biblical condemnation to things he personally disliked, witches in particular.

For example, the oft-quoted verse in Exodus (22:18), "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." The original word there would be accurately translated as "poisoner" which is quite different from the word "witch."

Yes, the word was kashaph (Hebrew). It means "to whisper or mutter incantations, prayers, or possibly even gossip" but was translated into English as "witchcraft" and "sorcery".

(Wait a minute! Prayers! Oh my, all those people praying under their breath are witches!)

However, Greek translators felt that the root of the work kashaph meant "poisoner" as their texts tended to use the word pharmakeia (which is the root of our word pharmacy) which literally meant medicine or drug.

There is also the Hebrew word qecem which is translated as divination or witchcraft, but it literally means "to distribute by drawing lots or chances" (ie: gambling).

Its evil, feminism is its latest evolvement.

RANDOM—Dictionary definitions of 'witch' belong out the window. I've never seen a vaguely accurate one.

RANDOM—Dictionary definitions of 'witch' belong out the window. I've never seen a vaguely accurate one.

Have you ever visited a site called thefreedictionary.com? They have a couple of interesting definitions. I personally like :6. One particularly skilled or competent at one's craft:

Witchcraft is neither good nor bad, it just is.

kashaph kaw-shaf' a primitive root; properly, to whisper a spell, i.e. to inchant or practise magic:--sorcerer, (use) witch(-craft).

kesheph keh'-shef from kashaph; magic:--sorcery, witchcraft.

kashshaph kash-shawf' from kashaph; a magician:--sorcerer. (in the Hebrew)


farmakeiva - the use or the administering of drugs, poisoning, sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry (in the Greek)

again, coming back to... idolatry. the FOREMOST problem with calling oneself a witch and a Christian. even if you are following just the teachings of Jesus himself, and not the entire bible you can see where He says in John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me."

I think that my belief on witchcraft comes under:
Absolute twoddle.

I think witch craft was born out of women(and sometime men) who practised alternative medicine. Which I fully believes works. St Jons wart has been used for years by Cancer suffers, with all docters claiming it a bogus placebo. Now the Sale of St jons wart is only 'legally' sanctioned by pharmacists cos the damn dr realised it works and can make money out of it. Naturally extensive knowledge re herbal remidies in olden times earned you the title witch craft. I''m sure I fully believe in the whole magical powers thing tho.
Wish I had magical powers

Witchcraft is neither good nor bad, it just is.

Correct! (DING DING DING DING DING!) There r u 3 types of spells...

WHITE-Spells that r used for protection for others and good spells, good luck will come...

BLACK-Spells that r used to harm and perhaps kill someone, bad luck will come ur way...

GRAY-White magick that is actually turns to black magick during the process of the spell, bad luck will come ur way...

There is also the Hebrew word qecem which is translated as divination or witchcraft, but it literally means "to distribute by drawing lots or chances" (ie: gambling).

Thou shalt not suffer a gambler to live? That would be harsh...bye-bye Vegas.

Correct! (DING DING DING DING DING!) There r u 3 types of spells...

WHITE-Spells that r used for protection for others and good spells, good luck will come...

BLACK-Spells that r used to harm and perhaps kill someone, bad luck will come ur way...

GRAY-White magick that is actually turns to black magick during the process of the spell, bad luck will come ur way...


I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd have an easier time believing that you're trying to hold an intelligent conversation if you weren't using netspeak. Is it really all that easier to just type 'r' instead of 'are'?

I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'd have an easier time believing that you're trying to hold an intelligent conversation if you weren't using netspeak. Is it really all that easier to just type 'r' instead of 'are'?
Two letters easier!

Correct! (DING DING DING DING DING!) There r u 3 types of spells...

WHITE-Spells that r used for protection for others and good spells, good luck will come...

BLACK-Spells that r used to harm and perhaps kill someone, bad luck will come ur way...

GRAY-White magick that is actually turns to black magick during the process of the spell, bad luck will come ur way...

What the...?I've never heard of Magick transmuting itself like that, unless there was a mistake in the spell casting, unless that's what you mean. Has anyone else? And that whole "luck" thing, in my honest opinion, is all psychologically. If you believe something's going to give you good luck, or bad luck, it's more likely to happen, depending on what you believe, OR seem that it was caused by a previous action.

again, coming back to... idolatry. the FOREMOST problem with calling oneself a witch and a Christian. even if you are following just the teachings of Jesus himself, and not the entire bible you can see where He says in John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me."

One more time....

Jesus spoke in parables. A parable is the designed use of language purposely intended to convey a hidden and secret meaning other than that contained in the words themselves.

He DID NOT say "Do as I say." It was more of "DO AS I DO."

I have friends who are witches and wizards. The spells they cast usually involve lighting candles and chanting. I don't see any difference between this and a Catholic lighting candles and praying to Mary for intercession.

[QUOTE=Docteur Moreau]I have friends who are witches and wizards.

Do they fly around on broomsticks too?
Funny how the intellectual left will fight tooth and nail to prove God doesnt exist, and how ridiculous the Bible is, in this modern day age, but wont bat an eyelaid at statements like this.


The spells they cast usually involve lighting candles and chanting. I don't see any difference between this and a Catholic lighting candles and praying to Mary for intercession.

Might have something to do with Satan. :rolleyes:

What the...?I've never heard of Magick transmuting itself like that, unless there was a mistake in the spell casting, unless that's what you mean. Has anyone else? And that whole "luck" thing, in my honest opinion, is all psychologically. If you believe something's going to give you good luck, or bad luck, it's more likely to happen, depending on what you believe, OR seem that it was caused by a previous action.
Nor do I "colorize" magick. It is energy that has been influenced by the one who cast it. Besides, even Christ knew of what I call the Law of Returns (and Wiccans call "The Law of Three") : "Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he reap." The key word is whatsoever, which many Christians tend to ignore. *sighs* :rolleyes:

*sighs* Maybe if I explain what a "Christian Witch" is, people will understand more. (Been there, done that on my way to being a Shaman. It was more or less a time of transition for me.)

A Christian Witch is someone who does declare Christ as his/her Lord - but also notices that there is a female counterpart that either has chosen him/her, or a goddess that s/he has chosen. If you think of a Triangle, you would find the Creator/trix at the top, with Christ & the Goddess holding equal powers below the Creator/trix.

Most Christian Witches have read the Bible, and understand what Christ was trying to teach. While some people stay at this stage, others (like myself) go on to honoring and/or serving a completely different pantheon within their lifetime.

Does this help everyone understand where World Wide Witchcraft is coming from?

*sighs* Maybe if I explain what a "Christian Witch" is, people will understand more. (Been there, done that on my way to being a Shaman. It was more or less a time of transition for me.)
A Christian Witch is someone who does declare Christ as his/her Lord - but also notices that there is a female counterpart that either has chosen him/her, or a goddess that s/he has chosen. If you think of a Triangle, you would find the Creator/trix at the top, with Christ & the Goddess holding equal powers below the Creator/trix.
Most Christian Witches have read the Bible, and understand what Christ was trying to teach. While some people stay at this stage, others (like myself) go on to honoring and/or serving a completely different pantheon within their lifetime.
Does this help everyone understand where World Wide Witchcraft is coming from?

Satan still?

For...some odd...reason, my post seems to have disappeared!

Oh well.

It doesn't matter if witchcraft is evil or not, or if Christians condemn it or not... because it's not real.

No one can show "proof" of it even existing.

Thinking it is real is folly. Spells do NOT EXIST. Harry Potter isn't real life.

Seriously, the only "spell" that happens is either dumb luck or simply "mind over matter."

Anyone who believes "witches" or "magic" is real is deluding themselves and needs to take a close, hard look at reality.

For...some odd...reason, my post seems to have disappeared!
Oh well.
It doesn't matter if witchcraft is evil or not, or if Christians condemn it or not... because it's not real.
No one can show "proof" of it even existing.
Thinking it is real is folly. Spells do NOT EXIST. Harry Potter isn't real life.
Seriously, the only "spell" that happens is either dumb luck or simply "mind over matter."
Anyone who believes "witches" or "magic" is real is deluding themselves and needs to take a close, hard look at reality.

You need to take agood look at witch craft yourself m8, if you think you know about reality. Its real, it works unfortunately, but its evil.
Dont let the 'white witches' come on here and fool you either with all their harmless good witch shit either,their all in it together, and Satan is their only master.

To me, Witchcraft is a bunch of overwieght twentysomething women dressed in black and discusssing the power of Wicca, a "religion" manufactured by a britsh con-artist who passed himself off as an historian.

The other thing "Witchcraft" is to to me is a term the church and state in Europe used to brand anyone who didn't fall in line and become a Catholic. Those people didn't call themselves witches and would want nothing to do with all the self-professed witches in Europe and North America.

The mere idea of a "Christian Witch" is as preposterous as a Jewish Nazi. Both exist, but both are so pathetic as to be almost tragic. Please purchase a clue. Like any ancient secret wisdom truly worth knowing would ever be printed in a book for sale at a store. Witches and Witchcraft are FICTION. In the middle-ages they were a fiction created to gain control and wipe out any resistance to the Church. Today they are a fiction sold by fakkirs and bought by the gullible, an acts played at by pretentious people who seek to cover a low self-esteem. They have as much to do with any real lineage of ancient wisdom and power as the hatred sold as truth by evangelist "Christians".

There ARE ancient traditions with a lineage far older than the reckoning of the Bible, but if you think you can find them printed in a book or babbled by some fat cow in a black mumu at a psychiks fair, your so deluded you probably think your own shit doesn't stink. If you are stupid enough to beleive that withes are real but only EVIL, you might as well just remove your brain and leave it for safe keeping at the nearest church.


Both sides in this issue make me sick to the stomach. If you want to have all your play-acting, fine, but don't invovle the rest of the world in it. Leave for kindergarten and the playground, okay?

hi, im just letting you all know that the reason you can vote for both good and evil is that the choices are set up as check boxs, if you wanted to make it one or the other then radio buttons should have been used.
My opinion on witchcraft and any other belief system is that as long as you arent hurting anyone, or a likely to do so, then go nuts, believe whatever you want, its not like its anyone elses business anyway. Unless your a scientologist, in that case you need professional help. Let me put it in nice easy to understand words for you, L. Ron Hubbard was a Science Fiction author with delusions of grandeur and a plan to evade taxes. And if i get offered one more personality test then by jove there is going to be a reckoning. (please note that this is only my personal opinion, brought about by a number of "friends" trying to convert me every day for the last six years. this has somewhat tainted my opinion of this faith, if i have offended anyone then please forgive me)

The really interesting thing I love to discuss with friends who are witches is cursing. I've only ever had one curse put on my and discovered that there are counter-curses in the Anglican cannon that are far meatier and more vicious than any witch can throw at me. God kicks ass!

People are also avoiding discussing the more traditional witchcraft beliefs. Wicca and all the rest of it has a lot of bullshit in it that was made up quite recently. The African witchcraft traditions are much more interesting. They are far more rational and far more involved in the daily life of people. They don't promise secret knowledge really. They're much more genuine.

You need to take agood look at witch craft yourself m8, if you think you know about reality. Its real, it works unfortunately, but its evil.
Dont let the 'white witches' come on here and fool you either with all their harmless good witch shit either,their all in it together, and Satan is their only master.

Jewish and Christian traditions actually draw a difference between sorcery and witchcraft. Sorcery involves doing magic but not harming anyone. This is proof that people have learnt their art from the devil but are not slaves to him. Witchcraft involves harming people and therefore involves enslavement to the devil.
Satan can only be your master if your sinfully causing harm basically.

David uses a witch to contact the dead spirit of Samuel.

Jewish and Christian traditions actually draw a difference between sorcery and witchcraft. Sorcery involves doing magic but not harming anyone. This is proof that people have learnt their art from the devil but are not slaves to him. Witchcraft involves harming people and therefore involves enslavement to the devil.
Satan can only be your master if your sinfully causing harm basically.

Satans your master if you cant control your baser desires, let alone being a witch!

You need to take agood look at witch craft yourself m8, if you think you know about reality. Its real, it works unfortunately, but its evil.
Dont let the 'white witches' come on here and fool you either with all their harmless good witch shit either,their all in it together, and Satan is their only master.
I severely doubt witches exist. They are not real by any strech of the imagination.

Also, while I do believe in God, I think you're taking it a wee bit too far, if you think witches are real.

Of course, you'll probably tell me I'll burn in hell, but really, I don't need to hear fanatics.

David uses a witch to contact the dead spirit of Samuel.

Witch of Endor wasnt it?
David did a lot of wrong things in his life, but he acknowleged God in the end.

I severely doubt witches exist. They are not real by any strech of the imagination.
Also, while I do believe in God, I think you're taking it a wee bit too far, if you think witches are real.
Of course, you'll probably tell me I'll burn in hell, but really, I don't need to hear fanatics.

You have been watching too much Harry Potter m8, witches arent what you think.
Will you burn in hell? I dont know, thats up to God not me.

Oh yes...heresy...

Heresy from the latin word hairesis.

hairesis: choice

heretic: one who makes a choice.

Christian writer Irenaeus in 180c.e. produced a massive five-volume work entitled "Against Heresies." A contemporary of Irenaeus, Tertullian pointed out that heresy literally means choice and states that making choices is evil and suggested that church leaders that wanted to stamp out heresy not allow people to ask questions, for it was "questions that make people heretics." (Pagels, "The Origin of Satan" 163)

Well....there goes that whole "free will" thing, huh?

Your etymology is all wrong.
Heresy is either rom O.Fr. heresie, from L. hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect," used by Christian writers for "unorthodox sect or doctrine," from Gk. hairesis "a taking or choosing," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," of unknown origin. The Gk. word was used in N.T. in ref. to the Sadducees, Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism, but in Eng. bibles it is usually translated sect. Meaning "religious belief opposed to the orthodox doctrines of the Church" evolved in L.L. in the Dark Ages. Heretic (c.1330) is ult. from Gk. hairetikos "able to choose," the verbal adj. of hairein

Satans your master if you cant control your baser desires, let alone being a witch!

What have baser desires got to do with sorcery?

Wrote this a while back while doing some research. Provides some insight into African witchcraft and shows how varied witchcraft is and therefore how you an't reall generalise.

Are Witchcraft Beliefs Irrational?

Witchcraft is rarely encountered in many parts of Western Europe but for many peoples around the world, witchcraft is a constant reality. There has been a tendency for supposedly “rational” Western European societies to look down on “irrational” witchcraft beliefs thought to be unscientific and unempirical. In this essay I will discuss the ways in which societies of which witchcraft is an important part create a rational, logical framework in reference to the physical substance of witchcraft, the inheritance of witchcraft, witchcraft which does no injury, vengeance for witchcraft, maintenance and explanation of the strata of society, maintenance and explanation of moral values and taboos and finally the inclusion of ‘natural’ explanations in witchcraft causal relationships. I will be defining witchcraft loosely as the explanation of mishaps and accidents through reference to an unjust reaction by a witch to a wrong committed against them.
In the case of societies that believe that witchcraft is a physical substance, it may be possible to argue that such beliefs are rational in that they are testable through a kind of quasi-scientific autopsy carried out on people believed to have witchcraft within their body. Among the Azande (Evans-Pritchard) this belief is particularly evident. It is believed that witchcraft is a large lump-like substance in the small intestine and earlier in history, the Azande say that witchcraft would be confirmed by autopsy after the death of a suspected witch. This would involve the cutting open of the belly and stretching out the intestine so that old men could make a decision about the presence of witchcraft. The intestines might then be dried and used as evidence in court or they might be returned to the body and the body buried. The Nynkusa tribe also believe that witchcraft is a substance to be found in the body; in the stomach in the form of a snake. Evans-Pritchard argued that autopsies were evidence that “The Zande mind is logical and inquiring within the framework of its culture and insists on the coherence of its own idiom.” It would certainly appear that belief in the physical substance of witchcraft is based on empirical evidence and therefore could be argued as rational. However, not all societies believe that witchcraft is a physical substance, the Ndenbu in Zambia believe that witchcraft is the result of relations with spirit familiars rather than any inner witchcraft.
Beliefs about the inheritance of witchcraft also tend to fit into the framework of understanding of a society. Among the Zande, witchcraft is believed to be inherited by unlineal descent only from father to son or mother to daughter. This links with beliefs in the society that a boy results when a father’s soul is strongest and a girl when the mother’s soul is strongest in that it makes sense that the witchcraft characteristic would be passed on when the soul of the witch were strongest. However, as Zande society is based on matrilineal clan groups, this should mean that once a man is accused of being a witch, his whole clan should be regarded as witches. However, the Zande rationalise this saying that only his close relatives are affected by witchcraft. The kin of a known witch may discount kinship links with the witch by claiming that he or she is a bastard. Often they will force the mother of a witch to confess adultery or they may simply say that the witch must be a bastard because they have no witchcraft in their bodies. On the other hand, the Lunda and Luvale tribes in Zambia trace the inheritance of witchcraft to close female relatives of witches, reflecting the matrilineal descent lines in the society. The Talensi, also in Zambia, believe that witchcraft is passed on to all the children of a witch apart from the on who inherits the property of the dead witch. This links with the idea that the son or daughter who inherits is somehow better than the others. Such examples appear to show that ideas about witchcraft inheritance are often placed firmly in the logical framework of a society and therefore it could be argued that they are rational as far as the fact that they do not conflict with the logical framework of societies.
The disinterest in whether a person is a witch in cases where they are not hurting you could also be argued to be rational. Evans-Pritchard argues that the Zande will not be interested as to whether a man is a witch or not if he does not bear them a grudge and therefore does not have reason to do them injury. They will only be interested in witchcraft as an agent on definite occasions and in relation to their own interests and not as a permanent condition of individuals. This is also true to a certain extent of witchcraft beliefs of 15th century Western Europe. Then, a person was only identified as being a witch, and therefore the servant of the Devil, if they caused people harm. If their magic was not believed to have hurt anyone, they would be classed as a sorcerer and therefore it was deemed that they had only learnt their magic from the Devil rather than pledging their service to him. Such views would appear to be rational in that they link with the rational belief that a person is only doing wrong if they are hurting someone rather than there being any kind of abstract moral code.
If I person is accused of witchcraft, they are often subject to some kind of restitution or retribution. Among the Zande, vengeance for witchcraft, in the form of vengeance magic designed to kill a witch, is not meant to be done out of anger or hatred of the witch. It is instead seen as the fulfilment of a pious duty and a source of profit for the aggrieved. This allows a kind of detached attitude in which once vengeance has been carried out, there is no ill-feeling towards the kind of a witch. Vengeance magic is also done in private so that one cannot tell who is subject to vengeance magic. This stops a cycles of vengeance developing in which the kin of a man killed by vengeance magic would be forced to make vengeance magic against the people who the supposed witch aggrieved. The Nyakyusa believe that witches are destroyed at night when everyone is asleep. This is when they believe certain individuals of the village called ‘defenders’ fight with the spirits of witches. If a spirit is killed then the person who was their host also dies. Both of the above examples allow a kind of detachment from vengeance against witches as it is carried out in the world of magic. This makes sense rationally as it allows individuals to become satisfied that there is a reason why their relative died etc and that there is no need for violence without the need for actual bodily harm of witches.
Even in simple societies there is often some form of stratification system and such stratification may be rationalised by reference to witchcraft. Among the Zande, it is reasoned that as witchcraft is part of the body, it will grow over time so that old people are treated with apprehension and respect because they can be the most powerful witches. This links with the general social stratification of Zande society as it helps people to understand why elders are to be respected and why they tend to hold high offices in Zande society. Frederich Nadel, working with the Nupe in Nigeria found that witches operated in groups, which were lead by the real head of women traders. He argued that as women did the trade and often men were economically dependant on such trade, witchcraft was used to explain why men still held all the prominent leadership positions in the village. Although the examples above are not examples of witchcraft being rational as such, they are evidence that often witchcraft can be used to try to rationalise otherwise irrational aspects of society.
Similarly, witchcraft may be used to explain certain morals and taboos. Monica Wilson, when comparing the Nyahyusa and Pondo societies, identified and important difference in their witchcraft beliefs. The Nyahyusa believe that witches were very greedy and would eat a neighbour’s internal organs while they were asleep, suck the milk of cattle dry and be attracted by the smell of cooking meat. Wilson argued that this belief linked with a moral anxiety in Nyahyusa about greed and envy of another’s food resources. On the other hand, the Pondo believe that witches have sexual relations with spirit familiars who are light in the colour of their skin. Wilson argued that the Pondo used this belief to explain their distrust of endogamous marriages with people of tribes with lighter skin. It would therefore appear that witchcraft may also be used to rationalise morals and taboos.
Finally it is important to note that no society seems to talk of witchcraft to the exclusion of natural causes. Among the Zande, witchcraft is used to explain why many people go through the same chain of causation but will come out with different fortunes, this is not to deny the natural element contained within the chain of causation. For example, many people walk along the same path and take the same amount of care not to injure their feet, therefore, the Zande reason that there must be some other influence (I.e. witchcraft) which makes one person out of many injure their foot. In essence, witchcraft in Zande society replaces the element of coincidence and chance that is present in some Western European explanations of why bad things happen. The Zande also do not talk of witchcraft to the exclusion of morals or other social constructs. Firstly, it is social situation that indicates the relevant cause out of several possibilities identified, therefore not every misfortune is explained by witchcraft. Witchcraft is not morally exclusive either; among the Zande lies, adultery, stealing and disloyalty are thought never to be the result of witchcraft. The tendency of people to not accept the explanation of witchcraft if it conflicts with social exigencies expressed in law and morals is a rational one in that it allows morals and laws to exist without conflicting logically with witchcraft beliefs.
In conclusion I would say that witchcraft is not irrational in that it attempts to expand on premises of anatomy, inheritance, situation ethics, vengeance, social strata, morals and the natural environment to understand better the causality of misfortunate events.

Wow that silenced everyone. I was hoping to come back to see at least some discussion. lol

Well seen as you've all gone quiet I think I'll go return to the land of the living.
Goodbye
Grand Duke Fritz von Splurgenhof

David uses a witch to contact the dead spirit of Samuel.

Saul consulted the witch; not David.

I do personally believe in witchcraft; I fail to see how saying that thousands of reported instances of such things constitutes "scientific thinking". There's a good book on it called Between Christ and Satan, and it's got over a hundred cases of witchcraft and magic and all that that have been backed up by heaps of people. And funnily enough, every time the affected people were brought to Christ, the magic lost all power over them.

As a Christian, I believe this is true; it aligns with the scriptures, it makes sense, there are heaps of first-hand accounts that the author would have no reason for lying about.

People who get into tarot cards, black magic, white magic often get visions/feel presences, etc. that only stop if they completely surrender their lives to God, and there are many cases of this.

So

1. To say it doesn't exist, I would believe to be an ignorant stance.
2. To say it is good would say that Satan is good, which I again believe to be false.

This is what I believe.

The indigenous cultures all over the world have some incredible belief systems, and what little I understand of the practices of of the indigenous peoples in my area (the Mohwaks locally, and many more all across Canada and the US) incline me to respect them. I think it is a dis-service to call it witchcraft however. Its a very loaded word, and one I know my Cree and Mohawk friends don't like. That word was a tool of oppression used by the Roman Catholic Church and Canadian government against Natives all across the country.

Ignoring the loaded nature of that word though, I have to agree that the beliefs aren't primitive. They are the sceince the Natives used to uinderstand the world around them and interact with it on very deep levels as well as in day to day life. There is a LOT of observation behind those concepts and beleifs, over ten thousand years of observation. We call it magic and even witchcraft, they see it simply as the way the world IS. Discussion of this kind of Witchcraft, be it from my Mohawk neighbours or a Zambian village half a world away, is something I feel should be encouraged. Its another way of understanding the world we live in and I think we can learn quite a bit from them if we approach them with an open mind. Theres probably good reason why these beleifs are so deeply held by all these people. Scientists ARE learning from the native peoples, where they are willing to ask. Only last summer, the oral traditions of the local First Nations were approached as a literal geological history of Lake Huron. Those traditions said there was once a forest between what is now the shore line of the Niagra Escarpement and Manitoulin Island. When Geologists took this at face value and looked, lo and behold, there was STILL a forest, now petrified, on the bottom of the lake, exactly where the Native Elders had told them it would be. This knowledge reffered to a time more than TEN THOUSAND YEARS in the past. Surely there is a lot more to be learned of this world contained in those oral traditions, and not just geological.

So in some sense, witchcraft is very real and very meaningful. But it makes me feel quite uncomfortable to call it witchcraft. Its a misnomer and makes it far to easy be dismissive of these peoples beleifs.

Well seen as you've all gone quiet I think I'll go return to the land of the living.
Goodbye
Grand Duke Fritz von Splurgenhof


You employed an unnamed manouver whereby a person posts something extremely long and dull.

People start to read it, and are bored and uninterested, then quit, and leave the entire topic.

Wow that silenced everyone. I was hoping to come back to see at least some discussion. lol

lol..not really. I just found it interesting and informative, with no specific thoughts/questions which to post.

Your etymology is all wrong.
Heresy is either rom O.Fr. heresie, from L. hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect," used by Christian writers for "unorthodox sect or doctrine," from Gk. hairesis "a taking or choosing," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," of unknown origin. The Gk. word was used in N.T. in ref. to the Sadducees, Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism, but in Eng. bibles it is usually translated sect. Meaning "religious belief opposed to the orthodox doctrines of the Church" evolved in L.L. in the Dark Ages. Heretic (c.1330) is ult. from Gk. hairetikos "able to choose," the verbal adj. of hairein

I'm sorry, I meant to write Greek, but I read the wrong line in my book while I was typing. Happens sometimes. But it still goes to show my point. Hairesis means taking or choosing. According to the whole "free will" argument, people are allowed to make their own choice. But here you have a Christian writer telling priests to not let people make choices because that's what makes them heretics. They wanted to take away the peoples' right to choose their own beliefs. That's not a religion, that's a dictatorship.

Heretic (c.1330) is ult. from Gk. hairetikos "able to choose," the verbal adj. of hairein

I'm sorry, but no religion has the right to hold me hostage.

What have baser desires got to do with sorcery?

Alot, alchemy for instance, greed.

Hehehe..you should visit the JK Rowling thread and visit the link I post on Harry Potter....the fact that Harry is the anti-Christ and deliberately trying to push through a gay agenda by showing Lucious Malfoy (Arch-Angel Michael...I think...or Gabriel....according to the nutjob writing it, lol) his bare ankle. And when he's rebuffed his has a malevolent house spirit (Dobby) attack the angel.

ROFLMAO!

Seriously though...you should read it. :D

Hehe, yeah, I read that :) I actually emailed them, just to see what kind of response I get :rolleyes:

SNIP


M8, you are off your witch loving scone, if you think Im even going to read half of that, sorry, Id love to, but I dont have the time anymore.

OK, I will own up now, I only have a half hour b4 work, so I've only read the first few and last few pages of this thread -which is something I very rarely do- so please excuse if I am inadvertently restating something that was buried somewhere in the middle.
I should like to add my own perspective on this issue. The question asks, is witchcraft good or evil, and I have seen some debate over the meaning and application of the term witchcraft.
In my own case, however, it is not the witchcraft part that causes me trouble, but the notion of dualistic thinking involved in catagorising anything in terms of some absolute values of "good" or "evil"
For me, morality is personal and relative. Therefore, I would have to rephrase the question as, "Is witchcraft generally helpful or unhelpful, to me"
..And in my case I would most definitely say it is helpful- both on a psychological level and a practical one.
The point being, however, that this is not so much an endorsement of witchcraft, as a throwing out of the notion of "good and evil" in favour of personal responibility for one's actions. Yes I will happily curse, where I feel such action justified, fully aware of the consequences, but refusing to beleive that any comeback will ensue which I havent invited by my own belief in it.

BTW one last point- For those who are going to label me instantly as Satanic. Well done lol- that's exactly what I am, and proud of it- but it ain't quite what you think ;)

Alot, alchemy for instance, greed.

Alchemy was about more than just changing lead into gold.

Alchemy was about more than just changing lead into gold.

Go on.

BTW one last point- For those who are going to label me instantly as Satanic. Well done lol- that's exactly what I am, and proud of it- but it ain't quite what you think ;)

By that, do you mean the Church of Satan, Anton LaVey etc?

Go on.

It was a forerunner to proper science. It was a (fairly silly imo) way to try and unlock the secrets the secrets of the universe. Sure there were some that got into it to try and become rich, turn base metals into gold, but you got similar people in science. Didn't make science any more the baser, just made the individuals base.

It was a forerunner to proper science. It was a (fairly silly imo) way to try and unlock the secrets the secrets of the universe. Sure there were some that got into it to try and become rich, turn base metals into gold, but you got similar people in science. Didn't make science any more the baser, just made the individuals base.

So no witchcraft was involved in the process?

So no witchcraft was involved in the process?

None that I know of, really.

Edit: To me, alchemy is/was more of a pseudoscience, than a science, but I suppose I can see it as a forerunner to some of the sciences.

So no witchcraft was involved in the process?

No, not really. Though not 'scientific' in the modern sense, it was more concerned with the properties of materials (even though they didn't know why certain material).

Though there were some odd thoughts in European alchemy.

Thou shalt not suffer a gambler to live? That would be harsh...bye-bye Vegas.

the words in the bible 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' were put there by james the first. it was origanilli 'thou shalt not suffer a poisoner of wells to live' much more appropiate for the time when witches were tolerated and poisoners of wells not, seeing the well was a villages main water supply

The really interesting thing I love to discuss with friends who are witches is cursing. I've only ever had one curse put on my and discovered that there are counter-curses in the Anglican cannon that are far meatier and more vicious than any witch can throw at me. God kicks ass!

relli? my dad's an aglican for census' but there is an aglican church down the street that i hav never entered

the words in the bible 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' were put there by james the first. it was origanilli 'thou shalt not suffer a poisoner of wells to live' much more appropiate for the time when witches were tolerated and poisoners of wells not, seeing the well was a villages main water supply

:eek:

*Points at location*

:(

Lucky no one know the proper translation :)

Many believe witchcraft is evil, but then there are people who are good. What do you think is witchcraft and why?
Witchcraft is neiter good nor evil. How it is used is good or evil. It is no different than any other mythical belief system (*cough* *religion* *cough*). It's a set of beliefs that can be followed for the good aspects within it or it can be perverted into something bad and used to do harm.

Y'know..I'm rather surprised no one has yet mentioned Crowley, or Hermeticists (besides me). Though, technically, neither are witchcraft in the tradiontional sense.

It was a forerunner to proper science. It was a (fairly silly imo) way to try and unlock the secrets the secrets of the universe. Sure there were some that got into it to try and become rich, turn base metals into gold, but you got similar people in science. Didn't make science any more the baser, just made the individuals base.

UR LOOKING AT THE EUROPEAN ALCHEMY!

Now, it is said that most alchemists r looking for eternial life, not greed. Formed in China, they looked for the Philosepher's Stone, also the stone within the 1st Harry Potter book. Plz correct me if i'm wrong... :gundge:

Y'know..I'm rather surprised no one has yet mentioned Crowley, or Hermeticists (besides me). Though, technically, neither are witchcraft in the tradiontional sense.

Didn't he died by not finsihing a 90 day Satanist ritual and left the circle open(or didn't finish it)?

No- he died in his bed as an old man.
He did however have a nasty encounter with Choronzon to which you may be referring, and which some say changed his life from that point on- but it was not a _Satanic_ ritual (and in fact in a Satanic ritual one tends to leave the circle open anyway *grins*)

For a nice account of the event try here (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.html)..

By that, do you mean the Church of Satan, Anton LaVey etc?

*Smiles* yes and no- which is to say that personally I blend some of Anton's views (and some more traditional views) with a little Chaotic thought... to me both trad and modern systems are just paradigms to work in.
(I am not a CoS member, actually I belong to a different org)

Didn't vote in the poll.
Nor did I read the whole thread.
Don't meddle with things you don't understand.
That's about all I have to say on the topic. Besides ...
The word "witchcraft" connotes all kinds of things that have nothing to do with the practice itself. Despite what many people may or may not think.
It's my present understanding that wiccans often prefer to align themselves with nature worship.
I could be wrong though. Have been before.

UR LOOKING AT THE EUROPEAN ALCHEMY!

Now, it is said that most alchemists r looking for eternial life, not greed. Formed in China, they looked for the Philosepher's Stone, also the stone within the 1st Harry Potter book. Plz correct me if i'm wrong... :gundge:
Correction: you're wrong.
Harry Potter has nothing to do with the Philosopher's Stone, despite what J.K. Rowling might make you think. Allegory. Allegory. Allegory.
(Note: someday I might have the time to actually read through this threrad and comment on it. For now, I better just go).

Didn't vote in the poll.
Nor did I read the whole thread.
Don't meddle with things you don't understand.
That's about all I have to say on the topic. Besides ...
The word "witchcraft" connotes all kinds of things that have nothing to do with the practice itself. Despite what many people may or may not think.
It's my present understanding that wiccans often prefer to align themselves with nature worship.
I could be wrong though. Have been before.

Yes, most Wiccans do revere nature and honor a God and Goddess. Not all Wiccans are Witches though. Wicca is more religion. Witchcraft is just that...a craft.

Well if you look at it (this mainly just concerns European history), witchcraft is just another way of mankind trying to be closer to his or her god/gods, and those who performed it were usually a priest of somekind, so basically it's a generally good and healthy thing. But then Christianity, when it first came to be a major religion, wanting the worshippers (I'm slandering or anything) demonised the practice and burned/stoned anyone who said otherwise.

UR LOOKING AT THE EUROPEAN ALCHEMY!


True, to the same extent that everyone is looking at western witchcraft.

I now little about Alchemy anyway, even less about the forms it took elsewhere in the world.

Correction: you're wrong.
Harry Potter has nothing to do with the Philosopher's Stone, despite what J.K. Rowling might make you think. Allegory. Allegory. Allegory.
(Note: someday I might have the time to actually read through this threrad and comment on it. For now, I better just go).

Harry Potter was just a story. JK Rowling made it up strictly for entertainment. Why is this still such a debate? The woman has stated more than once that nothing in the story is real.

Philospher's Stone (http://www.crystalinks.com/philosopherstone.html)

Well.... interesting debates, seeing as I left the thread for a day.

I've found that this adage is true: One man's myth is another's religion. So why can't we agree to disagree on this subject?


p.s. to Bandwagon & Mutilated Sea Bass: I go by what I have experienced so far in my life. I think that y'all need therapy more than I do --and mine's neurological in nature. Okay, I'll put you two on the list of :headbang: to ignore....

p.p.s. to Stella: I always check JKR's website (http://www.jkrowling.com/) --especially the Trash Bin & the Rumours section --to keep up with things. I bet on that one day in June, the servers will crash when #6 comes out. ;)

In my (maybe) humble opinion, witchcraft is both good, and evil. And grey. Why does everybody have to look at the world in black and white?

I believe that witchcraft is just all in our heads. Sure we can use physical tools, but I think it all comes down to our minds.

Witchcraft is Tarot.
Witchcraft is Runes.
Witchcraft is Sunday Mass.
Witchcraft is Prayer & Amen.
Witchcraft is an elaborate ritual.
Witchcraft is Christian.
Witchcraft is Pagan.

Witchcraft is an all encompassing word, meaning the same damn thing.

But, like I said... my opinion only.

p.p.s. to Stella: I always check JKR's website (http://www.jkrowling.com/) --especially the Trash Bin & the Rumours section --to keep up with things. I bet on that one day in June, the servers will crash when #6 comes out. ;)


Oh, no doubt. I just get so tired of seeing people blame things on Harry Potter, or try to find some hidden meaning in it, like she was trying to write a hidden manual on the occult. I hate when people tell me that I'm living in a fantasy world of Harry Potter.

It was just a story.
It was just a story.
IT WAS JUST A STORY!!!

I was a Witch long before Harry Potter came out. I read the books. I found them entertaining, just entertaining. No, there are no grand revelations revealed, though there are a few pearls of wisdom from the character of Dumbledore. Granted, it doesn't help when many neo-Witches cite Harry Potter, but, hey, that's why there is this wonderful section in bookstores filled with many books about the history and practice of Paganism. One just needs to point them in the right direction.

Witchcraft is Sunday Mass.
Witchcraft is Christian.

LOL. You're going to stir up a mess with that one. :p

Well if you look at it (this mainly just concerns European history), witchcraft is just another way of mankind trying to be closer to his or her god/gods, and those who performed it were usually a priest of somekind, so basically it's a generally good and healthy thing. But then Christianity, when it first came to be a major religion, wanting the worshippers (I'm slandering or anything) demonised the practice and burned/stoned anyone who said otherwise.

correct and the parts that the couldn't demoise they added to their religion.

Saint Brigid-Brigid is actualli a pagan goddess

Easter-a pagan clelebration is very alike

correct and the parts that the couldn't demoise they added to their religion.

Saint Brigid-Brigid is actualli a pagan goddess

Easter-a pagan clelebration is very alike

Easter was ripped off from a Pagan celebration, actually. Rather completely, too.

Didn't he died by not finsihing a 90 day Satanist ritual and left the circle open(or didn't finish it)?

Eh, it was longer than that. And what happened was, he didn't know what the hell he was doing (He did that alot). Eventually, the house and premises were vacated, the ritual incomplete, the place left "open" and the area's been generally avoided.

Witchcraft is Christian.

And Christians are witches. :p

Granted, it doesn't help when many neo-Witches cite Harry Potter...

*le snip*

Wait..who has cited Harry Potter? While I'm not surprised, I've yet to read/hear of such? Any links?

Wait..who has cited Harry Potter? While I'm not surprised, I've yet to read/hear of such? Any links?

LOL, I mean those I've met personally. None that I can actually give links to, lol.

LOL, I mean those I've met personally. None that I can actually give links to, lol.
..*stares*Did they really attempt "spells" from HP? I've not come across a single viable "ritual" or "spell" in that whole series. Frankly, the thought that people think it resembles the real thing at all really ticks meh off.

It is the world's oldest and most widely observed religion

Wrong. This piece of information has probably already been refuted a couple times already, but I don't feel like wading my way through 32 pages of "hay im a witch an I FINE THAT VERY AFENCIVE".

Going from an archaeological point of view here, humans predate solid, recorded history. And looking at all the civilizations we do know about, we can see that all early civilizations had some sort of religion driving them: the Greeks, Mayans, or Egyptians, as a few examples. These civilizations all had polytheistic religions, often with gods based upon processes of nature, such as the sun, the moon, life, or death. So chances are the very first religions were based upon a polytheistic arrangement of gods used to explain the world around them. Say what you like, but this isn't the witchcraft you're referring to.

As for the most widely observed religion, I'm absolutely positive that this is false as well. Exact figures and proportions often contradict one another, but it seems constant that the 'most widely observed' religions are monotheistic - Christianity, Islam, Judaism. Other widely observed religions, while not monotheistic, include Buddhism and Hinduism.

Witchcraft, as far as I can tell, has no solid faith system that everyone agrees upon. In fact, it seems to be more tradition and superstition based, much like voodoo. This is probably a major factor in why it isn't one of the most widely observed religions.

As for this thread, I'm surprised it's still going. It seems to me that the poster of the thread is desperately trying to paint practitioners of witchcraft as victims of persecution. Granted, some intelligent discussions and arguments have come of this, but it seems that most of the people on the witchcraft camp are trying to passionately explain themselves when no explanation was asked for. Look, nobody's going to burn you for wearing pentagrams and burning incense. And if you ever actually pull off a spell, good for you, there's a guy with $1 million for you, as was mentioned in a previous post. But let this thing die, okay?

And if I seem overly bitter and scathing, I apologize, it's been a long and coffee-deprived day.

*snip*
You're right, it's already been refuted a couple times, including by myself. Wicca is a mere sixty years old.

I agree that witchcraft (or most likely Wicca, as I'm not sure which poster it was you're referring to) is not as wide spread or quickly growing as the poster may believe. Taking into account ALL of the religious faiths and belief systems in the world, Pagans, witches (of the traditional sense) and Wiccans are probably in the minority. As to the why of witchcraft being in the minority, you may be right, but I'm not certain. It may just be more people have been made bias against it, and those who know the full traditional practices of it are very much a minority. So, with a limited number of people who know about a subject, it makes it a bit harder to educate others, unless you want to try posting on the Internet..which may not help one's credibility.


And yes, to be honest, you come across as at least somewhat bitter and scathing, but I've taken no offense. I do understand where you're coming from. A number of the posts contained do seem to be a defense of beliefs, where it was unnecessary. Personally, I've tried to simply stick to explaining and debating in an intellectually sound fashion, in order to educate others, if they so wish to know.

..*stares*Did they really attempt "spells" from HP? I've not come across a single viable "ritual" or "spell" in that whole series. Frankly, the thought that people think it resembles the real thing at all really ticks meh off.

Lol, no, but I have met some that do a "It says in Harry Potter..." and I immediately laugh and walk away. I used to know a girl that used to always say "I want to live in Harry Potter's world. Things would be so much better." Whatever you say kid, lol.

However, I do believe Paganism is one of the fastest growing belief systems (or the many systems thereof) today. Looking at numbers from bookstores and surveys indicate that many are more open-minded to "new age" (gah, I hate that phrase) practices and beliefs. I'll have to find the name again, but there was a survey done where 80% of the participants stated that they had taken part in a "new age" (there's that phrase again) ritual or practice. In fact, there was a newpaper article in one of my state's biggest Sunday papers that found that altars are an 'in' thing right now. People are setting up altars and making time for daily meditation. Many of the Xians doing so do have an altar to Jesus and/or Mary, but many also have others to other religious.....icons.....like Bhudda, or simply altars with a nature theme. I'll see if I can find the article in an archive, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to.

Edit to add: Yep, I was right. I can't find it in the archives. Of course it doesn't help that I don't remember the name of the article exactly right.

*snip*
I disagree. I think people may be more open to it, and is growing, but not at a significant rate. If anything, Buddhism and its related beliefs seem more popular with the New Age people. The people I've talked to tend to say they are: (in order of numbers of people adhering to the faith) Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist (and related beliefs), Hindi, Wiccan (I won't start ranting how that's not Pagan, at all), and Pagan.

I disagree. I think people may be more open to it, and is growing, but not at a significant rate. If anything, Buddhism and its related beliefs seem more popular with the New Age people. The people I've talked to tend to say they are: (in order of numbers of people adhering to the faith) Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist (and related beliefs), Hindi, Wiccan (I won't start ranting how that's not Pagan, at all), and Pagan.

Ok, going on a study done by B.A. Robinson (How Many Wiccans Are There in the U.S. and I know we're not just talking Wiccans, but it does kind of represent a base since just about 1/2 of Pagans identify themselves as Wiccan), in 1999, Barnes & Noble's online bookstore estimated that there were 10 million American consumers that bought Pagan books. Of course there is no way to determine if they bought them because they are Pagan or because they are just interested, but even if just a small portion, as much as 10%, are indeed Pagan, that would make at least 1 million Pagans in the U.S.

Personally, I myself have bought many books, and have loaned some of them to friends. How many of those 10 million consumers have done the same? How many of those books were bought to be shared by a group? It may be hard to record the growth, but I believe Pagan paths are growing, and rapidly, simply by seeing with my own eyes the number of people wearing distinctly Pagan jewelry, seeing many more people visiting the metaphysical/new age section at my local bookstores, etc. I'm finding more people that do know what my pentagram represents and means rather than those that instantly think it's a sign that I'm a devil worshipper.

Personally, I myself have bought many books, and have loaned some of them to friends. How many of those 10 million consumers have done the same? How many of those books were bought to be shared by a group? It may be hard to record the growth, but I believe Pagan paths are growing, and rapidly, simply by seeing with my own eyes the number of people wearing distinctly Pagan jewelry, seeing many more people visiting the metaphysical/new age section at my local bookstores, etc. I'm finding more people that do know what my pentagram represents and means rather than those that instantly think it's a sign that I'm a devil worshipper.

If you do the math, though, it's an insignificant number... .03% unless I messed up. That's one in every 300 people identifying with "Pagan" beliefs, and most of them aren't true Pagans..they're what I (and others I know) call fluffs/fluffy. Now, even given that the numbers likely have increased since '99, it still isn't a significant percentage, considering roughly 1/5 of the whole world identifies themself as "Christian". Adding to that the other mainstream beliefs, and those who identify as "Pagan" are in the minority, for certain.

Some of the people wearing pentragrams, perhaps even a decent number of them, wear it as a fad because they want to be "Gothic" and/or "cool", when they probably have a limited understanding of the symbol. I wear an Ankh, and a lot of people will say "Oh, what a nice cross you're wearing." Depending on my mood, I'll either twitch and walk away, or explain what it really is.

If you do the math, though, it's an insignificant number... .03% unless I messed up. That's one in every 300 people identifying with "Pagan" beliefs, and most of them aren't true Pagans..they're what I (and others I know) call fluffs/fluffy. Now, even given that the numbers likely have increased since '99, it still isn't a significant percentage, considering roughly 1/5 of the whole world identifies themself as "Christian". Adding to that the other mainstream beliefs, and those who identify as "Pagan" are in the minority, for certain.

Some of the people wearing pentragrams, perhaps even a decent number of them, wear it as a fad because they want to be "Gothic" and/or "cool", when they probably have a limited understanding of the symbol. I wear an Ankh, and a lot of people will say "Oh, what a nice cross you're wearing." Depending on my mood, I'll either twitch and walk away, or explain what it really is.

Now, I never said it wasn't a minority. And I'm not looking at the whole world at this point. I am looking at the U.S. (because, let's face it, that's where I am). However, in the same study, Robinson estimates that the number of Pagans is doubling every 2 to 3 years.

Wiccan growth rate:

A second important statistic is the rate of growth of the Wiccan community. "In May, 1998, the Chicago Tribune reported that, though difficult to quantify due to lack of formal organization, neo-paganism is the fastest-growing religion in North America with the Internet being the prime means of proselytizing." 1 Ms. Curott estimates a doubling in size every 18 months. This growth rate seems quite high, but appears to have some credibility in the Wiccan community. The ARIS survey of the American adult population indicates a growth in the Wiccan community of 17 fold between 1990 and 2001 - the highest of any faith group monitored. This would indicate a doubling in numbers of adherents about every 2.5 years. 2

If the latter growth rate is accurate and if it continues, then Wicca would be the third largest religious group in the U.S. by about 2012, behind Christianity and Judaism.

References:

1. Quoted in: "21st century challenges to separation of religion and government," Jefferson 21st Century Institute, at: http://www.j21c.org/
2. "American Religious Identification Survey," by The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, at: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/

And regardless of how you feel about fluffs (and they usually annoy me too), they have as much right to call themselves Pagan as anyone. Though I usually try to point out some decent books that AREN'T along the lines of Silver Ravenwolf.

As for the jewelry, I wasn't talking Goths. Actually, in my area, you'd be kind of hard pressed to find a "Goth". No, I'm talking the everyday jeans-and-tee-shirt crowd. Most of which are older (not hippies now :p ), middle-class citizens. They aren't into the black clothes and trench coats. More often than not, I'll see a simple goddess charm, or the triple moon symbol. It's not always a pentacle.

Now, I never said it wasn't a minority. And I'm not looking at the whole world at this point. I am looking at the U.S. (because, let's face it, that's where I am). However, in the same study, Robinson estimates that the number of Pagans is doubling every 2 to 3 years.

And regardless of how you feel about fluffs (and they usually annoy me too), they have as much right to call themselves Pagan as anyone. Though I usually try to point out some decent books that AREN'T along the lines of Silver Ravenwolf.

As for the jewelry, I wasn't talking Goths. Actually, in my area, you'd be kind of hard pressed to find a "Goth". No, I'm talking the everyday jeans-and-tee-shirt crowd. Most of which are older (not hippies now :p ), middle-class citizens. They aren't into the black clothes and trench coats. More often than not, I'll see a simple goddess charm, or the triple moon symbol. It's not always a pentacle.

If it's doubling that fast, then you're right, yes. That's definitely a significant increase. However, it'll be a while (assuming the trend continues) before we're out of the minority, which'll be an interesting day and something to look forward to, ne?

As to the fluffs, my biggest example, and problem, are the Wiccans, who have a lot of the core beliefs taken from Christianity, which is why I've stated I don't regard them as Pagan. I'd go more into that, but I don't want to run the risk of threadjacking.

I realize you weren't talking about Goths, however, I was simply stating that there are some people who wear it just to be so, so I keep that in mind whenever I see someone with a Pagan icon/symbol/what have you. I personally identify myself as Goth, though I usually don't dress it. It's not just a fashion, but a state of mind. However, some people will adopt things from Pagan culture, because it could be classified as such and "accentuate" their outfits.

If it's doubling that fast, then you're right, yes. That's definitely a significant increase. However, it'll be a while (assuming the trend continues) before we're out of the minority, which'll be an interesting day and something to look forward to, ne?

A very interesting day indeed.

As to the fluffs, my biggest example, and problem, are the Wiccans, who have a lot of the core beliefs taken from Christianity, which is why I've stated I don't regard them as Pagan. I'd go more into that, but I don't want to run the risk of threadjacking.


I have a friend that's Wiccan. When she first met us (my husband and I) and became a part of our church, she was a fluff bunny. A fundie fluff bunny, if I do say so myself. She was so hung up on just Wicca and really couldn't see outside of that narrow mindset. With a lot of discussion and explanation, I would consider her now more of an .... eclectic Wiccan. (Yes, I know someone earlier said that's an oxymoron, or something to that effect.) She still holds to her Wiccan beliefs and values, but she accepts that Paganism has a whole lot more to it than just Wicca.

A very interesting day indeed.



I have a friend that's Wiccan. When she first met us (my husband and I) and became a part of our church, she was a fluff bunny. A fundie fluff bunny, if I do say so myself. She was so hung up on just Wicca and really couldn't see outside of that narrow mindset. With a lot of discussion and explanation, I would consider her now more of an .... eclectic Wiccan. (Yes, I know someone earlier said that's an oxymoron, or something to that effect.) She still holds to her Wiccan beliefs and values, but she accepts that Paganism has a whole lot more to it than just Wicca.

I've never heard of an eclectic Wiccan..care to elaborate?

I've never heard of an eclectic Wiccan..care to elaborate?

It's.....hard to explain, lol. She still holds to her Wiccan beliefs and practices, but now she'll also look to different paths outside of Wicca sometimes....sometimes, mind you, lol.

It's.....hard to explain, lol. She still holds to her Wiccan beliefs and practices, but now she'll also look to different paths outside of Wicca sometimes....sometimes, mind you, lol.

..That's not very eclecctic, then. And still likely quite fluffy. I'd post more in response, but I'm tired, and am about to head to bed.

..That's not very eclecctic, then. And still likely quite fluffy. I'd post more in response, but I'm tired, and am about to head to bed.

It's more so than when we found her. :D

Harry Potter was just a story. JK Rowling made it up strictly for entertainment. Why is this still such a debate? The woman has stated more than once that nothing in the story is real.

Philospher's Stone (http://www.crystalinks.com/philosopherstone.html)

Not true. She might have looked up reaserch on the stone. It is suppost to bring eternial life, and was not a figment of imagination. PLZ ALSO CORRECT ME IF IM NOT TRUE!

Witchcraft is pure evil, of course, and can be defined as anything that is not specifically Bible-sanctioned.
Bottom line: If it's not in the Good Book, it's the Devil's work.

All these Wiccans and pagans who frolic through the woods having sex with trees (and all the other nasty things their rituals involve) should be burned at the stake along with J.K. Rowling and her demonic writings.

Not true. She might have looked up reaserch on the stone. It is suppost to bring eternial life, and was not a figment of imagination. PLZ ALSO CORRECT ME IF IM NOT TRUE!

ok, ill shut up...im a little stressed and morose since my graduatuation is coming up and all my friends r going to different high schools. :( y do i bother...

Not true. She might have looked up reaserch on the stone. It is suppost to bring eternial life, and was not a figment of imagination. PLZ ALSO CORRECT ME IF IM NOT TRUE!


The old idea of a "philosopher's stone" was itself ignorant superstition.

It is irrelevent whether or not Rowling "looked up" the old ideas about a philosopher's stone or not, it is part of general fantasy and mythology.

Not true. She might have looked up reaserch on the stone. It is suppost to bring eternial life, and was not a figment of imagination. PLZ ALSO CORRECT ME IF IM NOT TRUE!

Authors frequently use things from life, or from mythology, in their stories. That doesn't mean they themselves believe in it or are trying to prove it exists. J.K. Rowling has done numerous interviews about the Harry Potter series. It was an idea that "popped" into her head while she sat on a delayed train for four hours. Much of Harry's feelings about the death of his parents are JK's own feelings about the death of her mother. But it IS just a story.

There are many theories surrounding the Philosopher's Stone. Some say it is a material that produces the fabled Elixer of Life. Other's believe it was the catalyst to change base metals into gold. Still another and widely held idea is of the Philosopher's Stone as a metaphor:

Eventually the Philosopher's Stone was thought to signify the force behind the evolution of life and the universal binding power which unites minds and souls in a human oneness.

Finally, it represented the purity and sanctity of the highest realm of pure thought and altruistic existence.

All these Wiccans and pagans who frolic through the woods having sex with trees (and all the other nasty things their rituals involve) should be burned at the stake along with J.K. Rowling and her demonic writings.

:rolleyes: This comment is so obviously ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant comment.

:rolleyes: This comment is so obviously ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant comment.


I was joking, genius, and I find it amusing that you thought I was serious.

actually the word wizard means to cheat or lie

Oh, it's old alright. Founded in the 1940s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

if you want to go way back.. it was actually slowly created over time traced back to like cavemen. The first witch came out in the 40s. i mean, if witchcratft started in 1940, what was with the salem witch trials?

if you want to go way back.. it was actually slowly created over time traced back to like cavemen. The first witch came out in the 40s. i mean, if witchcratft started in 1940, what was with the salem witch trials?

Wicca was started in 1940. Witchcraft wasn't. There's a difference. The former being that some guy decided to create his own religion by stealing from another and giving it a light sprinking of Pagan/pseudoPagan aspects. The latter was brought about thousands of years ago, perhaps tens of thousands.

I was joking, genius, and I find it amusing that you thought I was serious.

Joking or not, that was an extremely stupid comment, which is why I said it didn't even warrant a response.

if you want to go way back.. it was actually slowly created over time traced back to like cavemen. The first witch came out in the 40s. i mean, if witchcratft started in 1940, what was with the salem witch trials?

Regardless of where it drew ideas from or what was actually practiced prior to it, Wicca...as an organized religion...began in 1939. That is why many consider Wiccans neo-Pagans rather than just Pagans.

To me, witch craft is like a good grilled cheese sandwich.
It lures you in with the smell and promises of the hidden wonders inside, but then it tests your loyalty to it. Like most ways of life, you must suffer a little by sticking your barehand into the hot pan of sacrifices (real men don't use spatulas. Not that "real men" have anything to do with me, I'm just to poor/stupid to buy a good spatula).
Then, you realize that witchcraft, like the grilled cheese sandwich, is disgusting, burned on one side, and filled with cholestrol. Further, the cheese isn't grilled, because grilling (as I remember) involves neither frying pans, nor copious amoutns of butter.
So, yeah, that's what I think about cooking, and about whatever the hell else I was talking about.

I haven't read through the rest of the thread yet, just replying to the original post.

I can't vote in the poll because I don't think witchcraft is either 'good' or 'evil'. For one thing, you need to define the terms more than that. When you say 'witchcraft' these days many people naturally think of Wicca, but that is not the only form of witchcraft, nor is it an 'ancient' religion- it's a relatively recent one.

If you do mean Wicca, then I don't think it's either good or evil. It just is. Wiccans can have good or bad intentions in practicing the Craft, but that is not the same thing.

[QUOTE=The Bauhas]Witchcraft is pure evil, of course, and can be defined as anything that is not specifically Bible-sanctioned.
Bottom line: If it's not in the Good Book, it's the Devil's work.
[QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Like the computer you posted that on, and pretty much all modern technology, Camenbert cheese, chiuhuahuas, the town of West Wyalong...

*dearly hopes you were being sarcastic*

Whats with the 'k'?

I think the whole point in magic is to gain the ability to influence/control metaphysical forces to achieve a quantifiable physical result.

That said, I think its a load of BS.