NationStates Jolt Archive

Many believe witchcraft is evil, but then there are people who are good. What do you think is witchcraft and why?

Vastly interesting, moreso than several organized religions, but ultimately useless...

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

I think it is a way to get in touch with the spiritual side of creation, and focuses more on nature and the spirits of creation itself rather than an established deity or dogma. It is no more evil than any other religion, because it is what you do, rather than what you believe that determines good and evil.

Bit of a narrow range of choices. I don't believe either. I believe it's superstition, same as religion.

Bit of a narrow range of choices. I don't believe either. I believe it's superstition, same as religion.

Yeah, I just voted for both (not sure why that was possible), so I could see the results.

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.

I think half the fun of being a witch is putting spells on Darrin. Since I can't do that, I have no interest in witchcraft. :(

Witchcraft is literally the craft of the wise, those who know the world and are also able to change it as they wish. I might also add that they are distinct from those who do not know the world, and do not hold the power to change - that is, the Christians.

There is something wrong with your poll. it said 3 people voted, and that 3 voted yes, and 3 voted no. that left 60% of people who voted said yes, and the other 60% said no. Is it just me or does that seem a little....well..WRONG

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.

Just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile the two, given the general bias against the occult by Catholics...actually, pretty much all Christians?

There is something wrong with your poll. it said 3 people voted, and that 3 voted yes, and 3 voted no. that left 60% of people who voted said yes, and the other 60% said no. Is it just me or does that seem a little....well..WRONG

Apparently it's letting us vote for both options simultaneously. :confused:

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

Let me put some light on this situation, Wiccan is an old source of witchcraft. Also, withches arn't only for girls, but for boys. MAny who thinks warlocks were used as boy witches, were used by witchhunters to capture people who were considered "evil."

P.S. Wizards r another name for male witches, but its best to call them a witch anyways...

Witchcraft is literally the craft of the wise.

No. Literally, witchcraft is the craft of a witch.

witch n.
A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
A hag.
A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching.

[Middle English wicche, from Old English wicce, witch, and wicca, wizard, sorcerer. See weg- in Indo-European Roots.]

Note the bolded reference to the word's etymology...

Just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile the two, given the general bias against the occult by Catholics...actually, pretty much all Christians?


Many r very confused by this too. You can do spells that do not relate to Gods power, but is said in the bible, many people use magick. Moses, the wave and Jesus the wine. We believe that God is giving us the power. If God doesn't accept it, it will not work...

Let me put some light on this situation, Wiccan is an old source of witchcraft.

Oh, it's old alright. Founded in the 1940s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

No. Literally, witchcraft is the craft of a witch.

[QUOTE]witch n.
A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
A hag.
A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching.

[Middle English wicche, from Old English wicce, witch, and wicca, wizard, sorcerer. See weg- in Indo-European Roots.]

Note the bolded reference to the word's etymology...

It's not just Wiccans who practice it. And I've a lot of problems with them, though I am Pagan.

Magick, as I've stated in another thread, is neither good or evil. It is a tool. It is how you use it, the intent, that shapes YOU, not it. A knife is used for surgery, to heal..and to kill. The same applies with this.

It depends, actually. It has to do with the specifics that are often confused.

1. There is the form of religion, usually Wicca, that focuses on rituals and spells, and is mainly centered around nature. While personally I find it silly, it's completely harmless.

2. The form of witchcraft that the Bible actually condemns is not the occult Wicca style, but an actual pact with the devil. What this means is someone who surrenders their soul in exchange for aid from the Devil. Personally, I believe it happens, but not in the dramatic fashion once thought. Mainly, it occurs from people who are selfish and uncaring, who coldly fight only for personal gain. They in that way "form a pact with the Devil" (not consciously) and seem to do better in life, thanks to the Devil's aid. (Which is why I believe so many seemingly evil people do so well in life.)

C. Totally useless.

No. Literally, witchcraft is the craft of a witch.

witch n.
A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
A hag.
A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching.

[Middle English wicche, from Old English wicce, witch, and wicca, wizard, sorcerer. See weg- in Indo-European Roots.]

Note the bolded reference to the word's etymology...



LOL! I was not referring to the etymology of the term, I was referring to what it means. When you're talking about metaphysics, there is a subtle difference...

Infact, I believe the Proto Indo-European root *weg- means something like "to be alive/strong". That's almost as useful a definition of a witch as the one I gave.

I used to be Wiccan, but the Threefold Law and objectivism of good and evil seemed illogical. My current system of belief incorporates some witchcraft, Gaia theory, and science.

I'm inclined to agree in part with Shadowstorm; those are the two main groups involved. However, there are a lot of true believers out there, and as religions go it's not bad (shrooms to Catholicism's heroin). It's very much a DIY faith; as opposed to many distinct denominations, there's a general system of belief from which you choose the path most suited to you. Some see the deities as actual gods, some as god-aspects, and some (like myself) as tools for focussing the mind on the energy and life force which witchcraft is dependent on.

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

That is a very ignorant, stupid statement. In fact, I find it quite amusing that someone could think this. I myself practice witchcraft. I am not a Wiccan. I do not worship the devil; I don't believe in the devil (if you're thinking 'you don't have to believe in the devil to worship him' then, well, I don't worship anyone. At all. I celebrate nature, though) and I don't practice Wicca. Wicca was invented by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s. I am an eclectic witch and I don't follow any tradition in particular.
Also, it's not only girls who can be Wiccan or witches. You don't have to be female, you just have to be able to comprehend the concepts. You don't even have to be human, I suppose, if you think about it. And contrary to popular belief, the only correct term for a male witch is...dun dun dun...a witch. Wow, how fascinating. Yes, the truth is, the terms 'wizard' and 'warlock' have nothing to do with the Pagan tradition of Witchcraft.

I believe in witchcraft.
I am not a religious psycho. I'm not religious, in fact. Witchcraft is not a religion, and I don't believe in any god. (By the way, most witches/Wiccans do believe in two Gods.) I don't think witches are out to get me because I'm not that stupid.
I'm also not a little girl interested in 'wicca'. I'm certainly female and I'm under five feet, so I guess I'm a 'little girl', but I'm not a child—my height is genetic. I'm not at all interested in Wicca.

There you go, I just disproved you.

No. Literally, witchcraft is the craft of a witch.

[QUOTE]witch n.
A woman claiming or popularly believed to possess magical powers and practice sorcery.
A believer or follower of Wicca; a Wiccan.
A hag.
A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
Informal. A woman or girl considered bewitching.

[Middle English wicche, from Old English wicce, witch, and wicca, wizard, sorcerer. See weg- in Indo-European Roots.]

Note the bolded reference to the word's etymology...

VEry good...i must say im impressed! I look up the word witch in a dictionary, it usually says its evil. Just one prob...Hags are fairygodmothers who help children by granting wishes. Hags r just like them, but much more evil.


P.S I'M STILL VERY INPRESSED! ;)

That is a very ignorant, stupid statement. In fact, I find it quite amusing that someone could think this. I myself practice witchcraft. I am not a Wiccan. I do not worship the devil; I don't believe in the devil (if you're thinking 'you don't have to believe in the devil to worship him' then, well, I don't worship anyone. At all. I celebrate nature, though) and I don't practice Wicca. Wicca was invented by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s. I am an eclectic witch and I don't follow any tradition in particular.
Also, it's not only girls who can be Wiccan or witches. You don't have to be female, you just have to be able to comprehend the concepts. You don't even have to be human, I suppose, if you think about it. And contrary to popular belief, the only correct term for a male witch is...dun dun dun...a witch. Wow, how fascinating. Yes, the truth is, the terms 'wizard' and 'warlock' have nothing to do with the Pagan tradition of Witchcraft.

I believe in witchcraft.
I am not a religious psycho. I'm not religious, in fact. Witchcraft is not a religion, and I don't believe in any god. (By the way, most witches/Wiccans do believe in two Gods.) I don't think witches are out to get me because I'm not that stupid.
I'm also not a little girl interested in 'wicca'. I'm certainly female and I'm under five feet, so I guess I'm a 'little girl', but I'm not a child—my height is genetic. I'm not at all interested in Wicca.

There you go, I just disproved you.


OMG! I thought i would never find a very understanding person as u! U know everything! U r DEFINETLY a true witch! If we could only meet...

|Starts to fantisize in his world|

:cool: Jennislore, im not worthy, im not worthy! :)


|Starts to bow|

LOL! I was not referring to the etymology of the term, I was referring to what it means. When you're talking about metaphysics, there is a subtle difference...

Infact, I believe the Proto Indo-European root *weg- means something like "to be alive/strong". That's almost as useful a definition of a witch as the one I gave.

Well, you find me a language in which the word "witch" means "wise," and I'll believe you. The term you used was literally, and that is the literal meaning of the word. If you're trying to say there is a meaning for the word that isn't defined in my language, by all means, please present me with it. I'm always interested in learning new things.

It's the next game in line for the warcraft/starcraft series isn't it?

Neither..

Which makes it so untrustworthy.

That is a very ignorant, stupid statement.
I disagree. I think it was merely an offensive statement, which made you want to call me stupid in retaliation.

if you're thinking 'you don't have to believe in the devil to worship him' then, well, I don't worship anyone.
No, I don't believe in the devil either.

Also, it's not only girls who can be Wiccan or witches.
I know.

And contrary to popular belief, the only correct term for a male witch is...dun dun dun...a witch.
The "correct term" is whatever most speakers of English use - that's how language evolves.

I believe in witchcraft.
I noticed.

I am not a religious psycho.
I was referring to the minority of uber-christians who not only believe in witchcraft, but believe it to be one of the world's major problems.

I'm not religious, in fact. Witchcraft is not a religion, and I don't believe in any god.
A superstition either way.

(By the way, most witches/Wiccans do believe in two Gods.)
I know.

There you go, I just disproved you.

You disproved my obviously exaggerated statement, but you didnt change my opinion of people who believe they are witches. Have a nice day.

[QUOTE=Riverlund]No. Literally, witchcraft is the craft of a witch.



VEry good...i must say im impressed! I look up the word witch in a dictionary, it usually says its evil. Just one prob...Hags are fairygodmothers who help children by granting wishes. Hags r just like them, but much more evil.


P.S I'M STILL VERY INPRESSED! ;)

Don't be impressed. I just typed the word into dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/), then cut and pasted the results. Nothing anyone with half a brain could do if so inclined.

I've never heard of a hag referred to in reference to "fairy godmothers". It's just a term used to describe a horridly ugly old woman, or a witch, unless you can prove otherwise.

I am a Christian in the sense that I have a love and friendship with Christ, but I do not consider myself to be "religious." I can certainly understand the attraction of witchcraft and do find it very intruiging. However, on the whole I believe it to be a self-nullifying practice that comes from the human desire for power. Many people feel helpless and lost in their own lives. They turn toward the only power they feel they can have, magick. They choose a system of belief based on superstitions and the desire to be in control of something. This is the witchcraft I see.

Well, you find me a language in which the word "witch" means "wise," and I'll believe you. The term you used was literally, and that is the literal meaning of the word. If you're trying to say there is a meaning for the word that isn't defined in my language, by all means, please present me with it. I'm always interested in learning new things.

I never said anything about your language :p I define my tongue as it pleases me, and at the time i referred to witches as the wise it seemed most appropriate. However, upon further inspection, I realise that Indo-European studies have once again provided a much more interesting alternative - from now on, I will refer to witches as the "lively ones". Thankyou for your learnéd contribution to my world view ;)

If anybody's interested, the term 'warlock' actually means 'oathbreaker'.

If anybody's interested, the term 'warlock' actually means 'oathbreaker'.

everyone knows that :p

It is neither good nor evil to me.

Originally Posted by World Wide Witchcraft
Since im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.
Interestingly enough, my grandmother is like that. I can remember plenty of times her harmless little rituals helped ease my fever or something like that as a child. (Some might argue that it was all in my head, but if it helped, so what?) I think to some degree that is one of the strengths of Catholicism; that some folklore and native beliefs can be "unofficially" incorporated.

As for it being good or evil, I'd have trouble applying one broad label to it. As my grandmother has shown, it can easily be used for good. However, I have seen those who believe they can use it for selfish ends (personally, I consider them impotent in that regard). I would recommend that you add a third option to the poll.

I never said anything about your language :p I define my tongue as it pleases me, and at the time i referred to witches as the wise it seemed most appropriate. However, upon further inspection, I realise that Indo-European studies have once again provided a much more interesting alternative - from now on, I will refer to witches as the "lively ones". Thankyou for your learnéd contribution to my world view ;)

So basically what your saying is that words mean whatever you feel they should mean at any given time. That's not exactly going to give your opinions a lot of credibility...

So basically what your saying is that words mean whatever you feel they should mean at any given time....


yes, now you've got it :p


That's not exactly going to give your opinions a lot of credibility
people seemed to be able to communicate quite well for thousands of years before they had a book telling them what everything meant...

Many r very confused by this too. You can do spells that do not relate to Gods power, but is said in the bible, many people use magick. Moses, the wave and Jesus the wine. We believe that God is giving us the power. If God doesn't accept it, it will not work...

Uhm...you should really do your research if you're going to use the Bible to prove that Witchcraft is okay.

Moses didn't make the red sea part...God did.
Jesus turned the water into wine because ultimately, He is God. (The Trinity)

Power does not only come from God, hun. It also says in the Bible that Satan has power over the earth, and he is the father of lies. So perhaps you should look up more scripture if that's what you're going to go by.

It always helps to have your resources straight, and well, to be religious and a witch...that's just kookoo. Can't be lukewarm in life. One or the other.

Language doesn't exist.

Language doesn't exist.


...you took the words right out of my mouth.

Language doesn't exist.

Very intuitive.

Uhm...you should really do your research if you're going to use the Bible to prove that Witchcraft is okay.

Moses didn't make the red sea part...God did.
Jesus turned the water into wine because ultimately, He is God. (The Trinity)

Power does not only come from God, hun. It also says in the Bible that Satan has power over the earth, and he is the father of lies. So perhaps you should look up more scripture if that's what you're going to go by.

It always helps to have your resources straight, and well, to be religious and a witch...that's just kookoo. Can't be lukewarm in life. One or the other.

Sorry, I don't mean this as rude, but that is a bit closed minded. Based on what you're saying, if you believe the Bible, you're not allowed to belive anything else. I believe in the meaning of the bible (that is, to be a good person and not harm others), I believe in science, and I have an open mind when it comes to other religions. I shape my own views on life, and don't require a book to tell me what to do. If God wanted the bible to be the be all and know all, he would have written it himself.

people seemed to be able to communicate quite well for thousands of years before they had a book telling them what everything meant...

Yes, the main reason was because when one person said something, another person had a reasonably good chance of understanding what they said because people didn't just suddenly decide that a word meant something it didn't...

Language doesn't exist.

The irony of this sentence goes off the scale...

Moses didn't make the red sea part...God did.
Jesus turned the water into wine because ultimately, He is God. (The Trinity)
Agreed, but God also commanded Moses to strike the waters with his staff, suggesting that such a gesture would carry God's Will. In that case, one could argue that "good" magic is simply God channeling divine power through a human being, as WWW suggested when he said "If God doesn't accept it, it will not work..."
Originally Posted by Lochiel
Uhm...you should really do your research if you're going to use the Bible to prove that Witchcraft is okay.

Power does not only come from God, hun. It also says in the Bible that Satan has power over the earth, and he is the father of lies. So perhaps you should look up more scripture if that's what you're going to go by.

It always helps to have your resources straight, and well, to be religious and a witch...that's just kookoo. Can't be lukewarm in life. One or the other.
If one has full faith in Christ (being a post-Vatican II Catholic, I'm willing to consider it might extend to some non-Christians as well), then it would not necessarily be wishy-washy to want to channel divine will.

Yes, the main reason was because when one person said something, another person had a reasonably good chance of understanding what they said because people didn't just suddenly decide that a word meant something it didn't...

Yeh, i can be a bitch like that :p. And I think you'll find that "craft of the wise" as a definition of witchcraft is quite popular; especially among those that practice it (I wonder why that is ;) ). Like I said, meaning isn't the same as etymology.

If God wanted the bible to be the be all and know all, he would have written it himself.

Which he did through prophets...

You can be a Christian and a Bhuddist, same as you can be Christian and a witch. And if you believe it helps you to get closer to God, then you're accepting God, therefore being a good Christian.

Which he did through prophets...

Men inspired by God wrote the bible. Anybody can claim to be inspired by God, anybody can claim to be a prophet. Humans have a habit of messing up stories. In school we did an experiment, where we all lined up and the teacher would whisper a short story to the person and front, and in turn that person would whisper the story to the next person in line. By the time the story got to the end of the line, it was completely different. This is why I don't trust the bible word for word, but merely the message it tries to give about being a good person.

You can be a Christian and a Bhuddist, same as you can be Christian and a witch. And if you believe it helps you to get closer to God, then you're accepting God, therefore being a good Christian.
How accepting God relates to Christianity I will never know...

Well, since basically every opinion but mine has been expressed, I guess I'll chime in.

First, I don't aunderstand why anyone would want to use witchcraft. The power of a righteous man or woman is amazing when they work within the will of God. Elijah, Moses, and of course God in Jesus had incredible powers that would leave any witch speechless (though some of you seem to reject language anyway). The point is, if you align yourself with God's will, anything is possible.

Now, I define witchcraft as using any supernatural power that is not the one true God. There are things, like Satan and many other fallen angels, with power that attempt to pervert God's creation by drawing others into their control. Using these powers is evil, because they keep us from God and separate us from His will.

If you don't believe me and think that you can reconcile Christianity with using powers other than God, actually read your Bible.

Witchcraft with good intentions is fine with me....Wait A Minute! Witchcraft!! They shall be burned at the stake!

witchcraft is neither good nor evil (although its practitioners can be either)

its the fantasy that one can affect the world through supernatural means. that words hold power. that rituals make things happen.

Well, since basically every opinion but mine has been expressed, I guess I'll chime in.

First, I don't aunderstand why anyone would want to use witchcraft. The power of a righteous man or woman is amazing when they work within the will of God. Elijah, Moses, and of course God in Jesus had incredible powers that would leave any witch speechless (though some of you seem to reject language anyway). The point is, if you align yourself with God's will, anything is possible.

Now, I define witchcraft as using any supernatural power that is not the one true God. There are things, like Satan and many other fallen angels, with power that attempt to pervert God's creation by drawing others into their control. Using these powers is evil, because they keep us from God and separate us from His will.

If you don't believe me and think that you can reconcile Christianity with using powers other than God, actually read your Bible.

Very well stated.

witchcraft is neither good nor evil (although its practitioners can be either)

its the fantasy that one can affect the world through supernatural means. that words hold power. that rituals make things happen.

You have obviously never had any spiritual experiences. I have experienced them and can tell you that there is power there. And if you don't think there are real witches and that there is real "magic", you are ignorant to a very real and very dangerous aspect of this world.

First, I don't aunderstand why anyone would want to use witchcraft. The power of a righteous man or woman is amazing when they work within the will of God. Elijah, Moses, and of course God in Jesus had incredible powers that would leave any witch speechless (though some of you seem to reject language anyway). The point is, if you align yourself with God's will, anything is possible.

Now, I define witchcraft as using any supernatural power that is not the one true God. There are things, like Satan and many other fallen angels, with power that attempt to pervert God's creation by drawing others into their control. Using these powers is evil, because they keep us from God and separate us from His will.

If you don't believe me and think that you can reconcile Christianity with using powers other than God, actually read your Bible.

Do you feel you have the ability to distinguish between the two? Or that others (Elijah and Moses, for example) could?

If you actually read the Bible, you will see that to be accepted into heaven, you must believe and accept god's love....I can't remember the exact wording, but there's this whole loving accepting grace thing going on. So if you do that,and see witchcraft as away to channel God's power and love and bring about a positive change in the world, it's perfectly rational to believe that he'll be okay with that.

If you don't believe me and think that you can reconcile Christianity with using powers other than God, actually read your Bible.

For one see my previous post about the bible being written by men. Second, who says God isn't granting these people power, if it is done in good will? Unless of course, you think God's love is limited and he plays favorites and will only give those he favors special powers.

You have obviously never had any spiritual experiences. I have experienced them and can tell you that there is power there. And if you don't think there are real witches and that there is real "magic", you are ignorant to a very real and very dangerous aspect of this world.

I concur. Personal experience is the one thing that has swayed me; rationalising it led to acceptance of that power.

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.

I knew a lady once who was a nun and a witch. She had even obtained her priest's tolerance of her "dual citizenship." She was the coolest lady I ever met. She was very into humanitarian stuff and environmentalism, and those things are actually quite compatible with being a witch. She said "Jesus was and always will be my first love, and I know he understands my way of relating to the spiritual aspects of the world, which is really more like the way he did it, come to think of it."

I call myself a witch but I am absolutely NOT wiccan, which is a johnny-come-lately religion invented by a man less than 60 years ago - puhleeze! Most "wiccans" would say I'm not a witch and most Christians would say I'm not a Christian - but since "witch" means someone who is self-empowered and lives in harmony with the natural forces and deals with the Spirit directly, and since "Christian" means someone who tries to live the same way Christ did, I am indeed both. So get over it, both of you! :D

Witchcraft with good intentions is fine with me....Wait A Minute! Witchcraft!! They shall be burned at the stake!

I find this very OFFENSIVE! This is a serious fourm here! I'v got THOUSADNS of insults that God and witchcraft doesn't exist (i can take that), but this is ubsurb! HOW RUDE!!! :mad:

For one see my previous post about the bible being written by men. Second, who says God isn't granting these people power, if it is done in good will? Unless of course, you think God's love is limited and he plays favorites and will only give those he favors special powers.

Plays favorites? If by favorites you mean the people who actively seek and become a part of God's will, then yeah, they get "special powers", because of their faith and acceptance of His plan.

Witchcraft is Dungeons and Dragons taken far too seriously. It's just a game, people. Learn to separate fantasy from reality. I can't believe how many people on both sides of the issue are making earnest responses. Quick question: have any of you actually seen a spell succeed?

I thought not. It's about as effective as prayer.

I thought not. It's about as effective as prayer.

LOL. It's the same thing.

"She who rises from her knees a better person, her prayer is answered."

...since "witch" means someone who is self-empowered and lives in harmony with the natural forces and deals with the Spirit directly, and since "Christian" means someone who tries to live the same way Christ did, I am indeed both. So get over it, both of you! :D

Ok, it's the "self-empowered" part that puts you at odds with living like Christ. He professed reliance on God the Father and depending on Him in faith. The ways of man are folly. Does that phrase ring any bells? You can't be self-empowered and reliant on God at the same time.

Plays favorites? If by favorites you mean the people who actively seek and become a part of God's will, then yeah, they get "special powers", because of their faith and acceptance of His plan.

Therefore, only God can decide then and not you. It is upto him (her/it/they) to decide who to lend his power to, possibly even witches who follow the path of God and good as well. So really, you shouldn't judge... doesn't the bible tell you not to judge people anyways?

Witchcraft is Dungeons and Dragons taken far too seriously. It's just a game, people. Learn to separate fantasy from reality. I can't believe how many people on both sides of the issue are making earnest responses. Quick question: have any of you actually seen a spell succeed?

I thought not. It's about as effective as prayer.


As a matter of fact...YES! Ive tried a spell that helped me clear my nightmares! Also, another told me my future that I nearly avoided so i lived a better life!


P.S Ur atheist, arn't u? :confused:

In school we did an experiment, where we all lined up and the teacher would whisper a short story to the person and front, and in turn that person would whisper the story to the next person in line. By the time the story got to the end of the line, it was completely different. This is why I don't trust the bible word for word, but merely the message it tries to give about being a good person.

In the ancient society in which the bible was written, much emphasis was placed on memorization and oral repetition of stories. Many Rabbis are famous for having entire books committed to memory. This kind of intelligence cannot be duplicated in a "labratory" setting.

You have obviously never had any spiritual experiences. I have experienced them and can tell you that there is power there.


yes, I agree entirely. Wait... you are talking about witchcraft, right? the power of the Old, pre-christian Gods?

I find this very OFFENSIVE! This is a serious fourm here! I'v got THOUSADNS of insults that God and witchcraft doesn't exist (i can take that), but this is ubsurb! HOW RUDE!!! :mad:

Would you know sarcasm if it hit you over the head with a baseball bat? Gosh, Jaghur was playing around.

Ok, it's the "self-empowered" part that puts you at odds with living like Christ. He professed reliance on God the Father and depending on Him in faith. The ways of man are folly. Does that phrase ring any bells? You can't be self-empowered and reliant on God at the same time.

But God the father wants us to grow up and take responsibility for our lives, not be children forever. Christ emodied this behavior. God is a perfect father. Baby rabbits grow up to be rabbits and baby cows grow up to be cows and children of God [are supposed to!] grow up to be gods. Any father who forbade his children ever to grow up would be dragged up in front of Social Services faster than you could say "Morons shouldn't breed."

Therefore, only God can decide then and not you. It is upto him (her/it/they) to decide who to lend his power to, possibly even witches who follow the path of God and good as well. So really, you shouldn't judge... doesn't the bible tell you not to judge people anyways?

But we can still know the will of God through the Bible. And it does say to test everything and keep only the good. Test the beliefs of those around you and reject false prophets.

In the ancient society in which the bible was written, much emphasis was placed on memorization and oral repetition of stories. Many Rabbis are famous for having entire books committed to memory. This kind of intelligence cannot be duplicated in a "labratory" setting.

It doesn't matter how committed you are to remember, humans make mistakes, and a minor mistakes over time change into different stories all together.

Would you know sarcasm if it hit you over the head with a baseball bat? Gosh, Jaghur was playing around.

I think that all people should be treated with respect, no matter what religion, beleifs or what they say. I might get mad, but life has its up and downs.


By the way, The Joke WAS HELARIOUS! :D

yes, I agree entirely. Wait... you are talking about witchcraft, right? the power of the Old, pre-christian Gods?

I've only personally experienced the one true God's influence on my life.

But we can still know the will of God through the Bible. And it does say to test everything and keep only the good. Test the beliefs of those around you and reject false prophets.

Yes, but witches aren't claiming to be prophets or evil. Many witches are also Christian, or any other religion that is a path to God. So, I don't see how you can be the one to decide whether they can be both or not.

You have obviously never had any spiritual experiences. I have experienced them and can tell you that there is power there. And if you don't think there are real witches and that there is real "magic", you are ignorant to a very real and very dangerous aspect of this world.
uh huh

yeah im very worried that the witches are gonna get me. how will i sleep at night?

Im pretty slow but this fourm is becoming very educational. I should stay out of school and instead go here!

But God the father wants us to grow up and take responsibility for our lives, not be children forever. Christ emodied this behavior. God is a perfect father. Baby rabbits grow up to be rabbits and baby cows grow up to be cows and children of God [are supposed to!] grow up to be gods. Any father who forbade his children ever to grow up would be dragged up in front of Social Services faster than you could say "Morons shouldn't breed."

We are Man, not God! We can never become God! "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". God is perfect, we are not, and so we cannot possibly attain godhood. He wants us to be with Him for all eternity, not on the same level as Him.

It doesn't matter how committed you are to remember, humans make mistakes, and a minor mistakes over time change into different stories all together.

The sheer multiplicity of copies of the Bible that exist today (tons more than any other work of antiquity) allows for us to cross-check them.

Furthermore, ancient Greek (in which the Bible was written) is not an inflected language (which means for those of you unfamiliar with it, the exact order or phrasing of words does not make any difference to the meaning).

uh huh

yeah im very worried that the witches are gonna get me. how will i sleep at night?

Don't worry, a witch can't put a curse on you until a long time. If your wondering if it will kill u, it takes days, even moths, for that to happen! The best part, and also the worst part, is the boomerang effect. Whatever u cast will come back x3.

Eg. Put a good luck spell on someone, they will be luckier and happier.

Put a bad spell...well...

Yes, but witches aren't claiming to be prophets or evil. Many witches are also Christian, or any other religion that is a path to God. So, I don't see how you can be the one to decide whether they can be both or not.

It's not me making the decisions. God decided and shows us in the Bible. False prophets (anyone speaking against God's power or encouraging the use of powers other than God) are evil and should not be listened to by true Christians.

The sheer multiplicity of copies of the Bible that exist today (tons more than any other work of antiquity) allows for us to cross-check them.

Furthermore, ancient Greek (in which the Bible was written) is not an inflected language (which means for those of you unfarmiliar with it, the exact order or phrasing of words does not make any difference to the meaning).

Yes, the number that exists TODAY... I am talking over the thousands of years that it has been written and changed in and translated and told word for word before there were so many copies. And by mistakes I didn't mean merely ordering the words wrong, using a wrong word all together, or misquoting, mishearing a word or words, or slightly changing the story to be easier to tell. It can be done subconsciously, so one doesn't even realize they are doing it sometimes.

Don't worry, a witch can't put a curse on you until a long time. If your wondering if it will kill u, it takes days, even moths, for that to happen! The best part, and also the worst part, is the boomerang effect. Whatever u cast will come back x3.

Eg. Put a good luck spell on someone, u
will be luckier and happier.

Put a bad spell...well...


just a bad spelling error

It's not me making the decisions. God decided and shows us in the Bible. False prophets (anyone speaking against God's power or encouraging the use of powers other than God) are evil and should not be listened to by true Christians.
precisely!

I've only personally experienced the one true God's influence on my life.

:rolleyes: if you are not Jewish, Arabic, or possibly Ethiopian - you've been duped. That God is not one of yours. Don't worry, he's been pulling this crap for years. Can you believe he converted the entire ROMAN EMPIRE to worshipping him??? He's persistant, I'll say that much. But you can see through it once you know how - below him, before him, the Old Gods still exist, Mother Earth, Father Sky, and their children, who I know are my true deities. Think about it - which is more likely, that a God that we've only known about for 2000 years is our Lord, or that the Gods we've worshipped since time immemorial are?

Of course, you may be Jewish, Arabic, or Ethiopian. In which case I apologize - YHWH truly IS your God. Then may we both worship our own God's in peace :)

It's not me making the decisions. God decided and shows us in the Bible. False prophets (anyone speaking against God's power or encouraging the use of powers other than God) are evil and should not be listened to by true Christians.

God did not write the bible, and again nobody is claiming witches are prophets. I am asking how you know they aren't channeling the good will and power of God.

witchcraft is only thought of as evil b/c of such things as the Salem witch trials and Witch hunts in the 1700's (which led to the creation of Halloween-which is a holiday made to commemorate the approx 20 ppl who were killed on the counts of being allied with the devil during the Salem Witch trials)

most witchcraft today is wicca (iknow a few wiccans)- which celebrates the spirits of air, water, fire, earth... and believes and a pure female diety. They also celebrate the different seasons and equinoxes..and stuff. They are not evil @ all, some might believe in potions and hexes, not that the stuff really works, but they are only portrayed as evil b/c of lore, fairytales, and halloween

As a matter of fact...YES! Ive tried a spell that helped me clear my nightmares! Also, another told me my future that I nearly avoided so i lived a better life!


P.S Ur atheist, arn't u? :confused:

Nightmare spell: you probably would have gotten the same effect from a sugar pill.

As for foretelling the future... if you avoided it, then how can you know that it would have happened?

James Randi has $1M in an escrow account for anyone who can demonstrate conclusive proof of supernatural abilities, which would include spellcraft. You should perform a spell for him and let him decide. There is a reason why his prize is yet unclaimed.

And yes, I am an atheist.

And by mistakes I didn't mean merely ordering the words wrong, using a wrong word all together, or misquoting, mishearing a word or words, or slightly changing the story to be easier to tell. It can be done subconsciously, so one doesn't even realize they are doing it sometimes.
What mistakes are you talking about? You say you aren't referring to minor wording mistakes ... do you really mean to say that the entire meaning of a story can be destroyed "subconsciously"?

:rolleyes: if you are not Jewish, Arabic, or possibly Ethiopian - you've been duped. That God is not one of yours. Don't worry, he's been pulling this crap for years. Can you believe he converted the entire ROMAN EMPIRE to worshipping him??? He's persistant, I'll say that much. But you can see through it once you know how - below him, before him, the Old Gods still exist, Mother Earth, Father Sky, and their children, who I know are my true deities. Think about it - which is more likely, that a God that we've only known about for 2000 years is our Lord, or that the Gods we've worshipped since time immemorial are?

Of course, you may be Jewish, Arabic, or Ethiopian. In which case I apologize - YHWH truly IS your God. Then may we both worship our own God's in peace :)

By accepted Jesus's sacrifice, I have been redeemed by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is anyone's God if they simply choose to accept Him, believe in His son's sacrifice, and live in accordance with His will.

If we're going to discuss being a Christian witch, lemme pull up a few verses.


There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12


Stand now with your enchantments and the multitude of your sorceries, in which you have labored from your youth-- Perhaps you will be able to profit, perhaps you will prevail. You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels; Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, and the monthly prognosticators stand up and save you from what shall come upon you. Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before! Thus shall they be to you with whom you have labored, your merchants from your youth; they shall wander each one to his quarter. No one shall save you.
Isaiah 47:12-15


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


I only did this because you've brought up the Bible now. I don't want to push any religion on you. I'm merely pointing out what you're saying isn't real: the line between Christianity and witchcraft.

Nightmare spell: you probably would have gotten the same effect from a sugar pill.

As for foretelling the future... if you avoided it, then how can you know that it would have happened?

James Randi has $1M in an escrow account for anyone who can demonstrate conclusive proof of supernatural abilities, which would include spellcraft. You should perform a spell for him and let him decide. There is a reason why his prize is yet unclaimed.

And yes, I am an atheist.

U CAN JUST TELL HIM TO BUG OFF! WE WILL NOT PUT OUR MAGICK TO BE TESTED! THATS TOTALLY OBSERBED!

P.S. God, Disneys gotta hate u right now :D

Don't worry, a witch can't put a curse on you until a long time. If your wondering if it will kill u, it takes days, even moths, for that to happen! The best part, and also the worst part, is the boomerang effect. Whatever u cast will come back x3.

Eg. Put a good luck spell on someone, they will be luckier and happier.

Put a bad spell...well...
i feel MUCH better now

What mistakes are you talking about? You say you aren't referring to minor wording mistakes ... do you really mean to say that the entire meaning of a story can be destroyed "subconsciously"?

It's quite possible but not likely, I just mean over time the meaning of a story can change based on errors in speach, memory, etc when spoken rather than written in a book.

This is just a joke here so before people get pissed at me remember, it's a joke of an example.

Guy: Jesus skipped a pebble across the water.
Guy 2: -doesn't hear about the pebble- Jesus skipped across the water?
Guy 3: Wow Jesus can walk on water?

One simple word could change the whole meaning of the story if misheard, and that's just a little joke of an example. You try remembering thousands of pages worth of stories and see if you get them correct word for word.

If we're going to discuss being a Christian witch, lemme pull up a few verses.

Thank you! I couldn't remember where these were.

U CAN JUST TELL HIM TO BUG OFF! WE WILL NOT PUT OUR MAGICK TO BE TESTED! THATS TOTALLY OBSERBED!

P.S. God, Disneys gotta hate u right now :D

*cough* It's absurd.

By accepted Jesus's sacrifice, I have been redeemed by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is anyone's God if they simply choose to accept Him, believe in His son's sacrifice, and live in accordance with His will.

He moves in, promises salvation and freedom in the hands of some a failed prophet of yesteryear, if only they follow his law and promise their eternal souls to him. He's an imperialist, nothing more. I assume you're an American, maybe that's why you identify with him? :p
Ok, this is getting depressing, and it's late here. I'm gonna go to bed...

*cough* It's absurd.

I've really gotta start my spelling/grammer skills... :D

Of course this subject all depends on what kind of witchcraft. If the witches are doing thigs to hurt the short people of the world then it is very evil. If not then... i'm fine with it!

One simple word could change the whole meaning of the story if misheard, and that's just a little joke of an example. You try remembering thousands of pages worth of stories and see if you get them correct word for word.Nothing has been said here that has not already been adressed. The Greek language prevents against words changing the meaning of stories. My history teacher took a trip to Isreal and talked to a Rabbi that had the entire Old Testament committed to memory. He would ask a verse and the Rabbi would say the verse. The multiplicity of copies reduces the effect that a "subconscious" *chortles* error would produce. Case closed.

Many believe witchcraft is evil, but then there are people who are good. What do you think is witchcraft and why?


I think witchcraft is simply an alternative religion. You should have had Nutural as a poll choice, but you didn't ,so I didn't ansewer.

Nothing has been said here that has not already been adressed. The Greek language prevents against words changing the meaning of stories. My history teacher took a trip to Isreal and talked to a Rabbi that had the entire Old Testament committed to memory. He would ask a verse and the Rabbi would say the verse. The multiplicity of copies reduces the effect that a "subconscious" *chortles* error would produce. Case closed.

No human language completely prevents from human error, and you are still failing to see that I am pointing out before there were numerous copies, and everything was written by hand and spoken by word. However, you fail to see the point that humans can err stories, and I have to go, so for now I will drop it.

He moves in, promises salvation and freedom in the hands of some a failed prophet of yesteryear, if only they follow his law and promise their eternal souls to him. He's an imperialist, nothing more. I assume you're an American, maybe that's why you identify with him? :p
Ok, this is getting depressing, and it's late here. I'm gonna go to bed...

The only thing wrong with your analogy is that, unlike a lot of people the U.S. has "liberated", those truly liberated by God from the burden of their sins are happy with their salvation. When I was saved, it was the best I had felt in my entire life, and I have lived a more fulfilling life since.

You are right on it being late, though. I'll catch up with this tomorrow.

Of course this subject all depends on what kind of witchcraft. If the witches are doing thigs to hurt the short people of the world then it is very evil. If not then... i'm fine with it!

Corse, witchcraft evil can come in many forms. For many that beleive Satinism is Evil, its not. Its an average religion if u don't look at it at a catholic sign (eg. Buddhism would know it as an average religion because usually doesn't know God.)

Also, uv heared that they kill people, thats only a couple of clans, not the official religion.

No human language completely prevents from human error, and you are still failing to see that I am pointing out before there were numerous copies, and everything was written by hand and spoken by word. However, you fail to see the point that humans can err stories, and I have to go, so for now I will drop it.
Very well. You have been a formidable opponent, and I thank you for your time (although you still don't understand my points).

Very well. You have been a formidable opponent, and I thank you for your time (although you still don't understand my points).

Yes thank you as well, it was a good debate. I see no problem in arguing as long as it doesn't degrade to "You're stupid!!" "No you're stupider!!" :)

Ok, it's the "self-empowered" part that puts you at odds with living like Christ. He professed reliance on God the Father and depending on Him in faith. The ways of man are folly. Does that phrase ring any bells? You can't be self-empowered and reliant on God at the same time.

Yes you can, because God is within you.

Why isnt "silly" an option?

Why isnt "silly" an option?

Because (im a witch) i found this as a SERIOUS QUESTION! :mad:

I assume witchraft is a type of seafaring vessel favored by witches. I cant say I had heard of one before though. A more interesting question might be what makes a witchraft different from an ordinary raft? Perhaps the witchraft has special compartments to store brooms and familiars?

Yes thank you as well, it was a good debate. I see no problem in arguing as long as it doesn't degrade to "You're stupid!!" "No you're stupider!!" :)
Agreed. Sorry if I came across as a bit harsh. Do forgive me! :)

Corse, witchcraft evil can come in many forms. For many that beleive Satinism is Evil, its not. Its an average religion if u don't look at it at a catholic sign (eg. Buddhism would know it as an average religion because usually doesn't know God.)

Also, uv heared that they kill people, thats only a couple of clans, not the official religion.

Con. People who kill people believe they will live longfully with Satan. This gives Santinist a bad name. Most of them are very nice.

Because (im a witch) i found this as a SERIOUS QUESTION! :mad:

Okay, first of all...when you open up a thread on here, be prepared to be vehemently beat up with words.

Okay, first of all...when you open up a thread on here, be prepared to be vehemently beat up with words.

Fo-wha-wha-wha-what? Im CONFUSED! :confused: Please explain

Fo-wha-wha-wha-what? Im CONFUSED! :confused: Please explain

You can't take everything so personally. It's a freaking internet forum. This thread was going to start an argument...there will be comments that you don't particularly like. But to get all upset about them won't do any good. I mean...come on...are we hurting you? Arguments can actually make a person smarter.

You can't take everything so personally. It's a freaking internet forum. This thread was going to start an argument...there will be comments that you don't particularly like. But to get all upset about them won't do any good. I mean...come on...are we hurting you? Arguments can actually make a person smarter.

Your right... im just very tired...please forgive me :(

But the post was a little...um...awkward...

Your right... im just very tired...please forgive me :(

But the post was a little...um...awkward...

Well, we're awkward people. :D

Well, we're awkward people. :D

AMEN! :p

AMEN! :p

I don't know if this has been asked yet, but how old are you?

I don't know if this has been asked yet, but how old are you?

14, u?

14, u?

Oh okay, I thought you were around there...
I'm almost 17.
I was just hoping you weren't...30.

You know, I used to think there are intelligent people here. I was wrong. You're all idiots. It discusses religion, therefore this thread will go around in circles forever. Give it up. No one can be argued into/out of heaven. Not that I believe in heaven.

Oh okay, I thought you were around there...
I'm almost 17.
I was just hoping you weren't...30.

Is that good, i really quiet slow?

You know, I used to think there are intelligent people here. I was wrong. You're all idiots. It discusses religion, therefore this thread will go around in circles forever. Give it up. No one can be argued into/out of heaven. Not that I believe in heaven.

Oh, don't mind him, he hates evryone. Just look at his name, for Pete's sake!

Is that good, i really quiet slow?

lol Not slow, you just sound your age. :p Just sometimes, I see posts from adults on here that make my teeth grind.

[QUOTE=Lochiel]lol Not slow, you just sound your age. :p Just sometimes, I see posts from adults on here that make my teeth grind.[/QU

By the way, r u a witch? Srry if I asked.

By the way, r u a witch? Srry if I asked.

Nope...I'm not. And no need to be sorry.

Nope...I'm not. And no need to be sorry.

Thx. U the nicest person i met on the internet and knowim a witch. Usually people insult me because im not "Fully Christain."
Thank You for accepting me!

Oh dear, gotta go. Bye

Thx. U the nicest person i met on the internet and knowim a witch. Usually people insult me because im not "Fully Christain."
Thank You for accepting me!

I'm not going to be mean just because I don't agree with you. That's just plain stupid. But I have to jet. Later days.

Wonderful! A peaceful ending for once. This redeems my faith in the General forum!

Because (im a witch) i found this as a SERIOUS QUESTION! :mad:


How can most people answer honestly though?

Question,
does any 1 think satinism is evil? :confused:

Question,
does any 1 think satinism is evil? :confused:

Yeah, I do. Since Satan ("the enemy") brings man to use his powers instead of God's and separates man from God, following his will is most certainly evil.

Sorry if this comes across harsh, but this is biblical fact.

Many believe witchcraft is evil, but then there are people who are good. What do you think is witchcraft and why?

Your poll options were incomplete. It's kind of like asking if prayer is good or evil - it really depends on what you're praying for and why. My mother, who is a born-again, fundamentalist Christian, once prayed for the death of her father because she was tired of taking care of him in his old age. It wasn't a prayer to ease his burden - it was done strictly for the purpose of easing her burden. She was extremely hateful to him the entire time he lived with her, so I know she didn't care anything about his suffering (especially since she was the one causing most of it). But does that make prayer evil? Of course not. The person doing the praying might be evil, but prayer itself is just a tool.

It's the same with Witchcraft. And no, I don't think that people who practice Witchcraft are evil - though some are, of course - but I'd say that most Witches are decent, good-hearted people.

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

Thank you for publicly demonstrating your lack of knowledge on the subject of World Religions. You may now return to doing, ummm, whatever it is that you do.

Question,
does any 1 think satinism is evil? :confused:

No, I don't think Satanism is evil, per se. Although there are some individuals who label themselves as Satanists that I have some questions about. But that applies to all religions (or non-religions, even). The Satanists I know don't even believe in a being called "Satan," and labeling themselves as "Satanists" seems to be more of a reaction against Christianity than anything else. In fact, all of the Satanists I know are pretty much their own god.

[QUOTE=Pterodonia]No, I don't think Satanism is evil, per se. Although there are some individuals who label themselves as Satanists that I have some questions about.

Tada. So Satanism is as good as praying to God. CONGRATULATIONS. YOU JUST ENTERED THE HIGHWAY TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gosh!! Idiot!!!!!!!!!! :headbang:
But if you feel that Satanism is a nice thing for everybody to do.
Go ahead. Don't trouble yourself. Have fun down there. I heard its rather hot.
hope you like a little more taint.

"Biblical fact" Now *there's* an oxymoron if ever I heard one.
As for Witchcraft, depends on how one defines it. Nowadays most people in the Western world define it as Wicca. As such I would say it's generally positive although it's practitioners are occasionally silly. Myself, I'm a Discordian pagan.
As for Satanists, I find that they tend to fall into one of three categories:

Heavymetalhead types trying to prove to themselves how scary they are.

people using it as an excuse to hold orgies (not that I have a problem with that)

People who consider Satan or Lucifer to be an entity seperate from Yahweh and to be a god of liberation and freedom (These usually call themselves Luciferians rather than Satanists)

its all fake all of i no mater what you say it is all fake

Where's the 'stuff of fairy tales' option? ;)

I tend to think of myself as more shamanistic, connecting to spirits of the natural world (and I'm neither a teen nor a girl). For me choices relating to religion went like this: Roman Catholic, atheist, agnostic, shamanism.

In searching for deeper meaning and a relational position in the universe, I decided that all I could do is to try to form individaul relationships with the world around me.

The reason it is evil is not that the people themselves are evil. In fact many a good person can be duped into doing evil acts. (Just look at King David and King Solomon, good people, who were duped into doing evil)

It is the looking to a source of power that is outside God that is the evil, because any power that does not come from God comes from Satan (he is very clever at disguising it as natural powers/ or whatever). The bottom line is that if the power does not come from God, it is evil.


Just kind of an aside:
Some of you may argue that Technology is the power of men. I agree in that it is the power of men given by God. All technological advances are inspired by God. Satan is the one who inspired things to be used badly and to credit ourselves as the sole creators. (this is also evil)

The reason it is evil is not that the people themselves are evil. In fact many a good person can be duped into doing evil acts. (Just look at King David and King Solomon, good people, who were duped into doing evil)

It is the looking to a source of power that is outside God that is the evil, because any power that does not come from God comes from Satan (he is very clever at disguising it as natural powers/ or whatever). The bottom line is that if the power does not come from God, it is evil.

How do you know where the power comes from? Someone earlier in the thread brought up a good point. Could the power not come from a Judeo-Christian God, at least in the cases where the practitioner in question identifies as both a witch and a Christian?

To my way of thinking, "spells" and "prayer" are very similiar. They both represent a focusing of mental energy with the purpose of realigning real world models to a more favorable state. They both can or can not invoke a divine power, although if they do not I suppose they are more akin to meditation. In any event, they both attept to tap into a greater power source to evoke real world change. If God is indeed the source of all power, then surely they must both be tapping into God. The path may be different but the destination is the same.



Just kind of an aside:
Some of you may argue that Technology is the power of men. I agree in that it is the power of men given by God. All technological advances are inspired by God. Satan is the one who inspired things to be used badly and to credit ourselves as the sole creators. (this is also evil)

Well, then, why are we necessary at all?

It is the world's oldest and most widely observed religion

None of the above..

A hobby perhaps?

It is the world's oldest and most widely observed religion

not if the Bible is true it isn't ;)


AS to the Tapping of a greater power "possibly tapping God's power. Nope. God gives His power in a very organized way. He chooses, we cannot "tap" His power without His consent.

There are two great powers in the world. No more no less. There is God and there is Satan. God has the real power, Satan's power is that of deception, trickery, etc.

If there is a such thing as a christian witch, they do not understand Christianity nor God.

At its best, it is a misguided and misunderstood use of demonic power. At its worst it is the intentional use of demonic power.

Option 3: A load of hocus pocus nonsense.

Many r very confused by this too. You can do spells that do not relate to Gods power, but is said in the bible, many people use magick. Moses, the wave and Jesus the wine. We believe that God is giving us the power. If God doesn't accept it, it will not work...
Just because God lets you do it does not mean he approves. God let Lucifer renege; God let Stalin kill 15 million Russians. God lets humans act as they will, because that is free will.

AS to the Tapping of a greater power "possibly tapping God's power. Nope. God gives His power in a very organized way. He chooses, we cannot "tap" His power without His consent.

I never said it did function without His consent. Perhaps my language was unclear. What I meant to question is how you know the power for spell didn't come from Him? Is the only litmus-test the term you use to refer to the process?


There are two great powers in the world. No more no less. There is God and there is Satan. God has the real power, Satan's power is that of deception, trickery, etc.

Right, so if someone prays for someone to recover from an illness, and they do, than that's God. However, if someone casts a spell to help someone recover from an illness and they do, wouldn't that be God as well?


If there is a such thing as a christian witch, they do not understand Christianity nor God.

Well, not to be rude, but that's your opinion. In the end, the only understanding that matters in a personal relationship with God is the one between you and God.

At its best, it is a misguided and misunderstood use of demonic power. At its worst it is the intentional use of demonic power.

:rolleyes:

It is the world's oldest and most widely observed religion

(We need an eyebrow raising smiley.)

I thought it was more a loose umbrella term for various beliefs such as Wicca, Neo-Paganism, Charmed fanism etc.

You don't also believe in the "burning times" do you?

At its worst it is the intentional use of demonic power.
You say that like its a bad thing.

You don't also believe in the "burning times" do you?

Er, as in the Inquisition? Seems to be quite a bit of factual evidence to support it's existance...

Tada. So Satanism is as good as praying to God. CONGRATULATIONS. YOU JUST ENTERED THE HIGHWAY TO HELL!
Satanists, at least those in the Church of Satan, do not believe in God/Devil and do not worship Satan. As I understand it it's more about believing in yourself and loving those who deserve your love. It's more of an ideology than a religion really. I think they they gave it the name CoS more to annoy and chock you than anything else.

As for anyone worshipping the biblical Satan, well they would be christians then wouldn't they. Not very good ones though.

Er, as in the Inquisition? Seems to be quite a bit of factual evidence to support it's existance...
No, not just the Inqusition. Protestants were just as bad (in many cases worse).

I was referring to the spurious claim made by some Wiccans and Witches that 5 million witches (in the more modern sense of the word rather then the traditional) were burned at the stake in Early Modern Europe.

Like most things it's not inhertantly good or evil, just depends on what you use it for. Then you'd moral judgement have based on wheather or not you thought the outcome was good or evil.

It's all a matter of opinion you see.

Take your Nazis for example, they thought the Jews were evil so set about killing all of 'em.

Certain sections of the Muslim faith think that all Christians are evil so set about killing them.

Back in the old days the Christians though that the pagans were evil so they set about burning them.

It's a fairly standard reaction to something that's different... Kill it.

Religion for the most part is about controling large numbers of people. Problem comes when you find a whole different religion meaning you can't control the people that believe in that so best off killing them.

The major religions are for that reason gonna have whichcraft pegged as evil and therefore set about trying to get rid of it.

:rolleyes:

A question was asked, that is my opinion. You're entitled to disagree.

You say that like its a bad thing.

IMO, that is about the most evil thing one can chose if they really understand what they are doing.

*and children of God [are supposed to!] grow up to be gods.*

I very, very much liked this quote. Mind if I share it around some folks?

Sorry for shitty formatting, I'm new to these forums and don't yet have the time to work out how to quote properly.

it's a negitive term given to women to create and empower a patriarical society and take away their ability to heal with natural remedys and herbs. I really like shadow's comment about psychos and little girls with wicca. i do think witchcraft is not a bad thing but i think this tittles gonna need to change if we ever figure out exactly what witchcraft is.

No, not just the Inqusition. Protestants were just as bad (in many cases worse).

I was referring to the spurious claim made by some Wiccans and Witches that 5 million witches (in the more modern sense of the word rather then the traditional) were burned at the stake in Early Modern Europe.

To be fair, though, there are records of "witches" being burnt at the stake in Early Modern Europe. Exact numbers are hard to produce, but it did happen. It's true that the idea of Gardinarian Wiccans being burned alive for their beliefs is simply not true, but executions of people either claiming to be witches or saddled with the label did occur, both in Europe and on the American continent.

It was always my understanding that Wiccans were specifically referring to the Inquisitions when using the terminology "the burning times". Perhaps I have been mistaken. What are the dates when this was supposed to have occured?

If we're going to discuss being a Christian witch, lemme pull up a few verses.


There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12


Stand now with your enchantments and the multitude of your sorceries, in which you have labored from your youth-- Perhaps you will be able to profit, perhaps you will prevail. You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels; Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, and the monthly prognosticators stand up and save you from what shall come upon you. Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before! Thus shall they be to you with whom you have labored, your merchants from your youth; they shall wander each one to his quarter. No one shall save you.
Isaiah 47:12-15


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


I only did this because you've brought up the Bible now. I don't want to push any religion on you. I'm merely pointing out what you're saying isn't real: the line between Christianity and witchcraft.

Odd, isn't it then, how it was a couple of Magi...astrologers...that followed the star to Bethlehem to supposedly acknowledge Jesus. (Oh, by the way, it has been stated that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25, as it would be slightly ridiculous for shepards to take their flocks out in the middle of winter when the pastures would be dead and there would be no grazing.) When the Christian church was trying to convert Pagans to their ways, it was easier to incorporate their holidays to make it easier for them to accept Christianity, thus Yule became synonimous with the birth of Jesus.

As for the "one true god" statement from Falconius...whatever...I refused to believe that an infant god such as the Christian one (being as Christianity is only 2000 years old) is the one true anything. When "God" said (supposedly) that "Thou shall have no Gods before me." he was speaking to the Jews. Just the Jews. The Jews were the supposedly choosen people of THAT god...he wasn't talking about people of other religions. But humans being human will assume anything..."Our god is better than yours..." "Our god is the only god..." yadda yadda yadda. People think they're right and everyone else is wrong so they demonize everyone else's beliefs. IT'S FRIGGING RIDICULOUS! GET OVER IT!

If your Christian, and your happy, fine. Leave those of us that aren't alone. If we are meant to be Christian, we'll find that path ourselves. I am a Pagan and damned proud to be one. I have worked spells, and they have worked. I and my husband have used Tarot cards to divine future events and have been right on. Jesus spoke in PARABLES. When he said "through me" it meant NOT "do as I say" but "do as I do"....love your fellow man...live a good life...etc. It DIDN'T mean drop everything and worship who I tell you to.

I'm so tired of seeing these threads and watching everything dissolve into the fundementalist drivel. So many argue with having no real knowledge of what they are arguing about. For all those with an open-mind and an open heart, I submit the following link....it sums up my feelings in a nutshell:


Questing Spirit: A Letter From God (http://www.angelfire.com/stars3/ashtah/letter.html)


And for further study and comparison on multiple religions, I submit this link:

Religion (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/religion)

Scroll about a 1/4 way down that page to the section entitled "Approaches to relating to the beliefs of others". You will find subsections called Exclusivism, Inclusivism, and Pluralism. (Inclusivism is actually the biggest subsection) Maybe with this information, you'll find out just how closely related ALL religions really are!

:headbang:

Completely stupid.That's what I think of "witchcraft."

It is the looking to a source of power that is outside God that is the evil, because any power that does not come from God comes from Satan (he is very clever at disguising it as natural powers/ or whatever). The bottom line is that if the power does not come from God, it is evil.


OHHHHHHH! You're granting "Satan" the power of creation now are you? So "Satan" is now on the same level as your god, huh?

I suspect if I asked you who created evil, your response would be Satan.

Hmmmm.

That would be difficult, being as supposedly, according to the Bible "God" created EVERYTHING! Thus giving "Satan" the power of creation would be going in direct conflict with the bible.

(Oh, my own little aside...I don't believe in any entity called "Satan.")

:headbang:

Oh, and Falcon person....(can't remember full name) "Satan" means "accuser"...not "evil one." Just thought you should know. And he is a loyal servant of Yahweh. :rolleyes:

I think that it is bad due to the fact that like all religion it is a waste of resources and manpower if witchcraft was real I am sure some witch would of conquered the world by now

I think that it is bad due to the fact that like all religion it is a waste of resources and manpower if witchcraft was real I am sure some witch would of conquered the world by now

Perhaps they have and they just aren't letting you know. He who governs best, governs quietest.

If anybody's interested, the term 'warlock' actually means 'oathbreaker'.


So what your saying is that warlock is a synonym for politician? :p

To be fair, though, there are records of "witches" being burnt at the stake in Early Modern Europe. Exact numbers are hard to produce, but it did happen. It's true that the idea of Gardinarian Wiccans being burned alive for their beliefs is simply not true, but executions of people either claiming to be witches or saddled with the label did occur, both in Europe and on the American continent.

There were a lot of of people accussed and killed in Early Modern Europe, it is estimated between 30,000 - 50,000.

I wasn't complaining about the fact people were killed. Just that those people were witches, in the modern sense.

It was always my understanding that Wiccans were specifically referring to the Inquisitions when using the terminology "the burning times". Perhaps I have been mistaken. What are the dates when this was supposed to have occured?

The Inquisition killed very few for "witchcraft" since they demanded a certain amount of evidence for a successful conviction. The worst cases of witch burings were where the judicial system was practically non existent.

Not sure what the established years are, but IIRC most of the executions occured between 1550 and 1650 (could be wrong about that though).

There should have been a third choice: Neither.

Religion is religion is religion.

Wicca is, at least, one of the less harmful forms.

I have a close friend who was Wiccan for many years. She recently decided they were too dorky and soft, and became a Pagan instead.

As for "witch", according to my etymology book:

witch [OE] The close Germanic relatives of witch have died out, but it seems that it may be related to German weihen 'consecrate' and even, distantly, to English victim (etymologically 'someone killed in a religious ritual), so the word's underlying signification is of a 'priestess.' Wicked was derived from Old English wicca 'wizard,' the masculine form of wicce, ancestor of modern English witch.

As for wizard, it is, essentially wise-ard. It's original meaning is of a philosopher or a sage. The magician notion only hit in the Middle Ages.

So, basically, witch=nerd.

Harry Potter is explained. Muahahaha.

It is the world's oldest and most widely observed religion

*stifles laughter*

Proof, please.

not if the Bible is true it isn't ;)


AS to the Tapping of a greater power "possibly tapping God's power. Nope. God gives His power in a very organized way. He chooses, we cannot "tap" His power without His consent.

There are two great powers in the world. No more no less. There is God and there is Satan. God has the real power, Satan's power is that of deception, trickery, etc.

If there is a such thing as a christian witch, they do not understand Christianity nor God.


The bible isnt true...


Neither, for that matter, is the assertion that "witchcraft" is the world's oldest religion.

It is the world's oldest and most widely observed religion

If you're talking about Paganism, yes, it is one of them, but not THE oldest. Wicca..no, it's not. That's 50 years old, and a lot of Pagans I know don't consider it a Pagan religion, at all.

Someone mentioned that if witchcraft was real, witches would've taken over the world by now. That's not true. There's a very strong rule againt using Magick for selfish, personal gain and I think world domination is very much under that category.

If you're talking about Paganism, yes, it is one of them, but not THE oldest. Wicca..no, it's not. That's 50 years old, and a lot of Pagans I know don't consider it a Pagan religion, at all.
we will probly never know which religion is the oldest. Because more than a few religions predate the writin word. They were passed down by word of mouth. And paganism is one of them.
You are right about wicca being 50 years old. And about alot a pagans not considering it a pagan religion. Mainly because there is a lot of christianity mixed in with wicca.

Someone mentioned that if witchcraft was real, witches would've taken over the world by now. That's not true. There's a very strong rule againt using Magick for selfish, personal gain and I think world domination is very much under that category.
That rule is for wiccans not for all pagans.

So what your saying is that warlock is a synonym for politician? :p

lol best joke I heard all day :p

if witchcraft was real I am sure some witch would of conquered the world by now
:rolleyes:
Dude...
You're forgetting the Illuminati.

EVERYBODY knows that the Illuminati control the world, and what's more, they are quite involved with freemasons, whom erevybody who's anybody knows are sorcerors of immense power.

So the magick-users already DO control the world.

"What is witchraft to you?"

Religion.

Example:
Get on your knees. 'Pray' for something to happen.

Hmm ... sounds witchy.

I think that it is bad due to the fact that like all religion it is a waste of resources and manpower if witchcraft was real I am sure some witch would of conquered the world by now
THATS MY PLAN!!! :mad:

I think that it is bad due to the fact that like all religion it is a waste of resources and manpower if witchcraft was real I am sure some witch would of conquered the world by now
GWB already does
my school is major goth, is goth another sect of witchcraft

SInce im pretty much catholic, but yet a witch, (Also known as a Christain Witch; one who does spells and rituals but beleives in God) is say it is usually good. Naturally, killing a person is usually evil for witchraft, its best that the witches creed ( u can't harm anyone with spells) is usually best to be follow.

Christian Witch? Isn't that an oxymoron? :D

When I hear the word witchcraft the only thing I can think of is the Harry Potter series.I love these books! and the movies too. I know that magic described in the books is not real but sometimes I wish it was, sometimes I wish I would have graduated from Hogwarts and all.In times like that I take my fountain pen and start scribbling down some fanfiction or posting on HP related forums.I can't understand those religious fanatics who burn HP books, these guys should wake up to reality, it's only the books written by an author, it's fiction and there really is no witchcraft.The closest thing to witchcraft in modern world would be kabbalah but that's different.Only teen girls would take wicca seriously.

Gerald Gardner began his tradition of Wicca in 1939. So currently Wicca is 66 years old. Gardner claimed to have joined a coven of witches and taken vows of secrecy not to reveal them. Then he claimed to have persuaded them to allow him to write a book incorporating some of their beliefs while still being fictionial (High Magic's Aid). It is also widely believed that the "Wiccan Rede" was created by Gerald Gardner by adapting Aleister Crowley's Law of Thelema.

OK. We've established that Wicca is not an ancient religion. Can we drop that arguement now? The fact is that it is a religious path now regardless of its age. In fact, it is probably the 5 largest religion in the United States while still being a minority religion.

Very few of the Europeans accused and burned for being witches were witches. The majority were unfortunate victims of another's greed or ambition. They either had something...money, property, some kind of clout, that either the Church or another person wanted. Those deaths were mostly politically motivated or a byproduct of greed.The people killed in America were also just innocent victims of hysteria and/or manipulation. The only one that had been imprisoned in Salem that MAY have been a witch was Tituba, and she was released.

There is no unbroken line to any religion. There are gaps and holes in them all. There are believed to have been ancient goddess religions from findings such as the Venus of Willendorf statues. Most Pagan religions today are recreations of what is believed to have been practiced at some point. That doesn't make them any less valid though. What is wrong with any "religion" that tries to stress living in harmony with everything else?

That rule is for wiccans not for all pagans.

While it's true that the Rede is geared at Wiccans, there is a "Golden Rule" for most, if not all, of the Pagan religions. Even Satanism stresses not harming others unless they have deserved it (ie - they have harmed you).

* Stupidity is the cardinal sin of Satanism (As the cardinal sin, Stupidity is the cause of all other sins)
* Herd Conformity for the sake of laziness is a sin
* Killing or harming animals unless for clothes, food or material is a sin
* Unproductive pride is a sin
* Do not harm children, for they are our future
* If in someone else's territory treat them with respect for they are protecting you.
* Never give your opinions unless asked.
* When you are in your own territory, maintain control and remain the greatest power between yourself and your guests.

An important aspect of Satanism is an adaptation of the Golden Rule also known as he Wiccan Rede, "If it harms no undeserving person, do what you will."
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/doctrine.html

And witchcraft itself has the 13 Goals of a Witch:

1. Know yourself.
2. Know your Craft.
3. Learn.
4. Apply knowledge with wisdom.
5. Achieve balance.
6. Keep your words in good order.
7. Keep your thoughts in good order.
8. Celebrate life.
9. Attune with the cycles of the Earth
10. Breathe and eat correctly.
11. Exercise the body.
12. Meditate.
13. Honor the Goddess and God.

I could go on with the Nine Noble Virtue of Asatru and others, but the bottom line is, just about every single religion, including the Pagan ones, have...guidelines...against doing "evil."

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

This is the narrow mindedness we do not need in this age, yes, there are people out there that practice witchcraft as some may call it.

Wicca is under the umbrella term for Paganism, and yes, Paganism is a religion.
I myself practice Paganism and I do not like narrow minded people that think it is all in books and on the television.
As far as Little girls into wicca, well, I can tell you, I know some Wiccan's that are a lot older than myself and I am 29.
Hello, wake up and smell the coffee, Paganism may be one of the fastest growing religions to date.

we will probly never know which religion is the oldest. Because more than a few religions predate the writin word. They were passed down by word of mouth. And paganism is one of them.
You are right about wicca being 50 years old. And about alot a pagans not considering it a pagan religion. Mainly because there is a lot of christianity mixed in with wicca.


That rule is for wiccans not for all pagans.

Eh..true. I suppose I should've specified. Sorry about that.

I said "one of" becaue their are other religions/belief systems just as old, if not older. It also depends on if you want to include religions/belief systems that are no longer practiced.

You know what? Paganism isn't necessarily a religion. I'm Pagan, an eclectic Witch in fact (not eclectic Wiccan—that's an oxymoron. ;) ) and I am not religious. Nope. I think that nature is great and I respect the planet, but I'm not religious. I represent my respect through Pagan rituals. I am I witch—yet somehow, I've managed to pass by the 'evil' and 'religious' bits! :O *Gasp!* How amazing! Not. :rolleyes:

Truth is, some Neo-Pagan witches are religious, some aren't. I don't worship anything. I don't believe in a supreme life force, or a god, or even life after death. I just think that we ultimately don't know why we exist or what happens when we die, so why argue about it? We're never going to find out, anyway. I just don't personally think there's a god or a heaven and hell. But yet I am a witch.

My girlfriend is a witch-Both in religion and sometimes reality.

=D

Winbar']Hello, wake up and smell the coffee, Paganism may be one of the fastest growing religions to date.
Actually, Shadowstorm is right - a lot of it is that it's an ongoing fad amongst "non-conformist" girls. Although that's obviously not all of them =P

I actually hope it isn't sofast-growing. That points to it becoming a fad. Most people are, IMHO, much to stupid to make day-to-day decisions, let alone ponder major philosophical questions.

Actually, Shadowstorm is right - a lot of it is that it's an ongoing fad amongst "non-conformist" girls. Although that's obviously not all of them =P


I don't know about now...since I haven't found a recent survey, but according to a survey done in 1996 by a Scott Russell, women slightly outnumber men, and the majority are between the ages of 26-41. Not quite half had identified themselves as Pagans for 5 years or less, but more than half stated they had been Pagan for 5+ years. 69% stated they have never been persecuted for their religion.

There is no exact number on the amount of Pagan practitioners today. Many choose to keep their spiritual practices private and do not participate in voluntary censuses. Others do not advertise their presence or participate in public activities, so they may go unnoticed. The only numbers that can be given must be strictly considered a round estimate.

Book sales can give a good indication on the growth of the Pagan community. Some Pagan best sellers have sold over 300,000 copies. Taking into account how many different Pagan books have been written and published and that not every Pagan will have every book every written (and that many books will be used or read by multiple people), it’s fairly safe to assume that the Pagan community could be close to, if not over, the million-person mark.

According to B.A. Robinson who wrote an essay called “How Many Wiccans Are There in the U.S.?” (www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm), Barnes & Noble’s online bookstore estimated in 1999 that there are about 10 million American consumers that buy Pagan books. (Of course, we can’t tell how many of these consumers bought the books because they are Pagan or just because they were interested.) In his essay, Robinson also estimated that the Pagan community could be growing so fast that it is possibly doubling in size every two to three years. If this could be proven true, it stands to reason that Paganism could become one of the three largest religions in the United States by 2010.

I don't know about now...since I haven't found a recent survey, but according to a survey done in 1996 by a Scott Russell, women slightly outnumber men, and the majority are between the ages of 26-41. Not quite half had identified themselves as Pagans for 5 years or less, but more than half stated they had been Pagan for 5+ years. 69% stated they have never been persecuted for their religion.

There is no exact number on the amount of Pagan practitioners today. Many choose to keep their spiritual practices private and do not participate in voluntary censuses. Others do not advertise their presence or participate in public activities, so they may go unnoticed. The only numbers that can be given must be strictly considered a round estimate.

Book sales can give a good indication on the growth of the Pagan community. Some Pagan best sellers have sold over 300,000 copies. Taking into account how many different Pagan books have been written and published and that not every Pagan will have every book every written (and that many books will be used or read by multiple people), it’s fairly safe to assume that the Pagan community could be close to, if not over, the million-person mark.

According to B.A. Robinson who wrote an essay called “How Many Wiccans Are There in the U.S.?” (www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm), Barnes & Noble’s online bookstore estimated in 1999 that there are about 10 million American consumers that buy Pagan books. (Of course, we can’t tell how many of these consumers bought the books because they are Pagan or just because they were interested.) In his essay, Robinson also estimated that the Pagan community could be growing so fast that it is possibly doubling in size every two to three years. If this could be proven true, it stands to reason that Paganism could become one of the three largest religions in the United States by 2010.



It would, I suppose, be par for the course if the US religious population reflected our disgraceful education system and culture by splitting along the lines of christian science-denying fundementalists and "the oldest religion in the world" - Ignorant superstition.

I think witchcraft is non-existent.

There are two kinds of people who believe in witchcraft.

1. Religious psychos who think witches are out to get them.

2. Little girls who are into "wicca".

I only have to agree

It would, I suppose, be par for the course if the US religious population reflected our disgraceful education system and culture by splitting along the lines of christian science-denying fundementalists and "the oldest religion in the world" - Ignorant superstition.

How does education have anything to do with someone's spiritual beliefs? And I never claimed Pagan religions were the oldest in the world. If you read back to one of my earlier posts, you'll notice that I stated that there is no unbroken line in ANY religion.

There is no unbroken line to any religion. There are gaps and holes in them all. There are believed to have been ancient goddess religions from findings such as the Venus of Willendorf statues. Most Pagan religions today are recreations of what is believed to have been practiced at some point. That doesn't make them any less valid though.

I think you are making an ignorant supposition.

So are you saying that Wiccan's and Pagan's are somehow either a psyhco religious nuts or we are all little girls?

*wonders how many believe the movie "The Craft" to be an accurate representation of witchcraft* :rolleyes:

I see the last post by Stella and myself seemed to have stopped this debate.
:confused:

*sighs* Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. :(

*sighs* Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. :(

Sure Was... GOODNIGHT EVERYONE! :D |Leaves by magic broomstick and dissapeares in the sky...|

theres a spell in the bible

Only teen girls would take wicca seriously.

actualli no, but i liked wat u said about HP

To be fair, though, there are records of "witches" being burnt at the stake in Early Modern Europe. Exact numbers are hard to produce, but it did happen. It's true that the idea of Gardinarian Wiccans being burned alive for their beliefs is simply not true, but executions of people either claiming to be witches or saddled with the label did occur, both in Europe and on the American continent.

It was always my understanding that Wiccans were specifically referring to the Inquisitions when using the terminology "the burning times". Perhaps I have been mistaken. What are the dates when this was supposed to have occured?


Well, do i got a story for U!

Non-Witch Side- According to mkany, all who accused them of witches fell illness to a sickness. WELL, they beleived that many were witches, but did no spell at a ll. They do beleive that a drug(CAn't remember the name) that was used in the 70's were in the grain, also the main food!


Witch side- Since witches used herbs and miterals for potions, it was believed they created, or found, it and used it for revenge! What was odd was that the plant was not to be found, not even within the countries they came or where in. NOW that's a mystery!

Witchcraft does fuck all so its not good or evil

Perhaps the most famous Greek ritual today is an invocation performed before attempting an exorcism, known as the Rite of the Headless One:

Write the names upon a piece of new paper, and having extended it over your forehead from one temple to the other, address yourself turning towards the north to the six names, saying…

Compare this, then, with a quote from the Key of Solomon the King, Book I, chapter 13:

Write upon a slip of virgin parchment…this Character and Name; ...thou shalt hold with thy right hand the aforesaid strip of parchment against thy forehead, and thou shalt say the following words:

Sorry I missed the heat of this one.

I, too, am of the belief that witchcraft in and of itself is neutral, and that it can be a tool to enlightened spiritual experience. To say that "good" people can accept God's power and do wonderful things with it, but that all witches are obviously aligned with Satan is, well, incredibly ignorant and biggoted.

Jesus taught tolerance. Study your bible; don't just skim through to find statements that you think back up your hateful, egocentric views.

Well, do i got a story for U!

Non-Witch Side- According to mkany, all who accused them of witches fell illness to a sickness. WELL, they beleived that many were witches, but did no spell at a ll. They do beleive that a drug(CAn't remember the name) that was used in the 70's were in the grain, also the main food!


Witch side- Since witches used herbs and miterals for potions, it was believed they created, or found, it and used it for revenge! What was odd was that the plant was not to be found, not even within the countries they came or where in. NOW that's a mystery!

I believe you are speaking of ergot, also known as rye rust. It's a fungus that sometimes grows on rye and causes hallucinations.

*wonders how many believe the movie "The Craft" to be an accurate representation of witchcraft* :rolleyes:
I sincerely hope not; if you want a movie that comes very close (but still not accurate) to representing Witchcraft, it's Practical Magic. The Craft was just stereotypical, even if it had a practicing witch in the film (the shopkeeper).

Okay, before y'all try to slice me to pieces, let me tell you just what I am: I am a shaman, claimed by the goddess Sekhmet, and serving the Egyptian pantheon. I only chose to serve the Powers That Be (meaning the collective of gods and goddesses of Earth as a whole); the Egyptian pantheon claimed me. While I was raised as a Christian, my outlook includes Wicca as well. But enough about me.

So are you saying that Wiccan's and Pagan's are somehow either a psyhco religious nuts or we are all little girls?

I have found that Wicca & Witchcraft are separate entities; the former is a religion (in that it involves deities), while the latter is an Art. Those who practice either are neither nuts nor "little girls"; I myself am over 40 years old and have been following this unique Spiritual Path of mine for the last 12 years.

Some of you seem bent to labeling those who practice that particular Spiritual Path as insane; I have found that this Path has actually helped me with some of the psychological quirks that I have. I am wondering: what are you afraid of? There is room enough for every religion; why can't we just all agree to disagree?

Oh, and for those of you who don't think that Christianity & Wicca can get along with each other: A Christian's Outlook on Wicca (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm)

Wiccans & Pagans are real people; only their outlook on religion is different.

theres a spell in the bible

I'm intriged...tell me more...

Jesus taught tolerance. Study your bible; don't just skim through to find statements that you think back up your hateful, egocentric views.

Thank you.

I sincerely hope not; if you want a movie that comes very close (but still not accurate) to representing Witchcraft, it's Practical Magic. The Craft was just stereotypical, even if it had a practicing witch in the film (the shopkeeper).

Okay, before y'all try to slice me to pieces, let me tell you just what I am: I am a shaman, claimed by the goddess Sekhmet, and serving the Egyptian pantheon. I only chose to serve the Powers That Be (meaning the collective of gods and goddesses of Earth as a whole); the Egyptian pantheon claimed me. While I was raised as a Christian, my outlook includes Wicca as well. But enough about me.



I have found that Wicca & Witchcraft are separate entities; the former is a religion (in that it involves deities), while the latter is an Art. Those who practice either are neither nuts nor "little girls"; I myself am over 40 years old and have been following this unique Spiritual Path of mine for the last 12 years.

Some of you seem bent to labeling those who practice that particular Spiritual Path as insane; I have found that this Path has actually helped me with some of the psychological quirks that I have. I am wondering: what are you afraid of? There is room enough for every religion; why can't we just all agree to disagree?

Oh, and for those of you who don't think that Christianity & Wicca can get along with each other: A Christian's Outlook on Wicca (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm)

Wiccans & Pagans are real people; only their outlook on religion is different.

AMEN! Im glad someone can be on my SIDE!!!

AMEN! Im glad someone can be on my SIDE!!!
:)
You're welcome.

I sincerely hope not; if you want a movie that comes very close (but still not accurate) to representing Witchcraft, it's Practical Magic. The Craft was just stereotypical, even if it had a practicing witch in the film (the shopkeeper).

Okay, before y'all try to slice me to pieces, let me tell you just what I am: I am a shaman, claimed by the goddess Sekhmet, and serving the Egyptian pantheon. I only chose to serve the Powers That Be (meaning the collective of gods and goddesses of Earth as a whole); the Egyptian pantheon claimed me. While I was raised as a Christian, my outlook includes Wicca as well. But enough about me.



I have found that Wicca & Witchcraft are separate entities; the former is a religion (in that it involves deities), while the latter is an Art. Those who practice either are neither nuts nor "little girls"; I myself am over 40 years old and have been following this unique Spiritual Path of mine for the last 12 years.

Some of you seem bent to labeling those who practice that particular Spiritual Path as insane; I have found that this Path has actually helped me with some of the psychological quirks that I have. I am wondering: what are you afraid of? There is room enough for every religion; why can't we just all agree to disagree?

Oh, and for those of you who don't think that Christianity & Wicca can get along with each other: A Christian's Outlook on Wicca (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm)

Wiccans & Pagans are real people; only their outlook on religion is different.

LOL, I was being sarcastic. I know "The Craft" is a bunch of Hollywood hooey, and I own "Practical Magic" *thinks about dragging it out and watching it again*

Winbar and I are actually close friends. She was referring to a statement made by someone else who said that witchcraft didn't exist and the only people who believed in it were either religious psycho-nuts that believed witches were out to get them or non-conformist little girls that were "into" wicca. She was just curious if they considered us religious psyco-nuts or little girls, lol. :p

Winbar herself is more into the Egyptian Magick path.

Myself...I'm just an eclectic Pagan.

LOL, I was being sarcastic. I know "The Craft" is a bunch of Hollywood hooey, and I own "Practical Magic" *thinks about dragging it out and watching it again*

Winbar and I are actually close friends. She was referring to a statement made by someone else who said that witchcraft didn't exist and the only people who believed in it were either religious psycho-nuts that believed witches were out to get them or non-conformist little girls that were "into" wicca. She was just curious if they considered us religious psyco-nuts or little girls, lol. :p

Winbar herself is more into the Egyptian Magick path.

Myself...I'm just an eclectic Pagan.

I'm an eccletic Pagan, and so is my fiancee, but I knew a girl who went from Judaism, to Wicca. She turned Wiccan, because of the Craft. *rolls eyes* Stuck with that for a few years, then turned Christian.

AMEN! Im glad someone can be on my SIDE!!!

Have I somehow transfigured myself into chopped liver? :eek:

LMAO! Just kidding.

I'm an eccletic Pagan, and so is my fiancee, but I knew a girl who went from Judaism, to Wicca. She turned Wiccan, because of the Craft. *rolls eyes* Stuck with that for a few years, then turned Christian.

LMAO! There is actually an ebook out there...a Book of Shadows actually, that someone modelled after "The Craft". I skimmed it. While most of the information appears accurate, the whole thing is riddled with pictures taken from the movie. That alone, to me, does not inspire confidence.

At least we three agree...... ;)


....so what about the others who have posted in this thread?

LMAO! There is actually an ebook out there...a Book of Shadows actually, that someone modelled after "The Craft". I skimmed it. While most of the information appears accurate, the whole thing is riddled with pictures taken from the movie. That alone, to me, does not inspire confidence.


Could you lie to me and say you were joking...'cause that makes me sad inside. I've read some of the Book of Shadows out there..wasn't impressed at all.

witchcraft is not good or evil since magick is neutral in nature. its the person using it who decides if the focused energy is used for good or evil. the goddess is both kind and destructive,like nature itself. therefore,she doesnt care how you use the energy. be evil or be good,doesnt matter. nature will always find a balance one way or the other.

the christians fear magic because it is self empowering and it leads you away from the church since it gives you a much more personal relationship with the goddess(god). they say all magick is from satan. i find this amusing because real witches(not the modern devil worshipping,demon summoning idiots) dont recognize lucifer or yaweh. they believe in opposing forces that are necissary for sustaining life and creation,but dont believe in one evil god and one good god who are at war. good and evil are just different aspects of nature,like negative and positive energy. its also funny the the jews and hebrews practive the kaballah,which is a form of "holy" magic that deals with angels and demons. they keep this "divine right" away from the regular church members.

witch craft has nothing to do with summoning demons or sacrificing people,although in the ancient world,all religions practiced human sacrifice,including christianity. do some research.(not the bible either,lol)
in modern wicca,witches show their loyalty and make sacrifices to the goddess in less bloody ways. they might burn expensive cloth soaked in fragrant oils during a ceremony or they might designate a part of their land as sacred ground that gets used as an animal sactuary. as far as evil spirits go(demons) wiccans are not concerned with summoning them as they spend a great deal of time and energy trying to ward off evil energies and negative forces. wiccans believe that you get what you give,and you get it back in spades,so they try to give positive energy most of the time...

I find this very OFFENSIVE! This is a serious fourm here! I'v got THOUSADNS of insults that God and witchcraft doesn't exist (i can take that), but this is ubsurb! HOW RUDE!!! :mad:

jeez, lay off a little, you're taking this way to seriously. i believe witchcraft is evil, i thought you would have understood that from my post

jeez, lay off a little, you're taking this way to seriously. i believe witchcraft is evil, i thought you would have understood that from my post
Can you blame him/her? You insulted his/her set of beliefs; would you not react the same way if someone said that your religion was evil?

I would like to know why you believe that Witchcraft is evil. Perhaps we can come to an understanding.

I don't think witchcraft is good or evil. That's because I don't believe witchcraft exists.

Meh....I don't believe anything, per se. I assume. One of my goals in life is to scientifically prove the existence of the soul, which hopefully will tie into witchcraft.

Despite my mother's claims to the contrary, I do not believe that witchcraft really exists outside of gothy anime.

One of my goals in life is to scientifically prove the existence of the soul,

When you succeed, make it's scientific name "Ghost", then switch to cybernetics and develop a fully-cyberized humanoid body and dub it "Shell". DO IT.

When you succeed, make it's scientific name "Ghost", then switch to cybernetics and develop a fully-cyberized humanoid body and dub it "Shell". DO IT.

I love that film!

Could you lie to me and say you were joking...'cause that makes me sad inside. I've read some of the Book of Shadows out there..wasn't impressed at all.

Unfortunately I make it a policy not to lie...so sorry to disappoint you, but it's out there.

The Craft BOS.pdf (http://eclecticmagick.com/thecraft/TheCraft.pdf)

the christians fear magic because it is self empowering and it leads you away from the church since it gives you a much more personal relationship with the goddess(god). they say all magick is from satan. i find this amusing because real witches(not the modern devil worshipping,demon summoning idiots) dont recognize lucifer or yaweh. they believe in opposing forces that are necissary for sustaining life and creation,but dont believe in one evil god and one good god who are at war. good and evil are just different aspects of nature,like negative and positive energy. its also funny the the jews and hebrews practive the kaballah,which is a form of "holy" magic that deals with angels and demons. they keep this "divine right" away from the regular church members.

This in itself is sad, since Catholic Priests, in their own way, perform sympathetic magick. How else can you rectify turning a wafer and a mouthful of wine into the blood and body of Christ? It is simple sympathetic magick. The same kind Pagan farmers used to use when they went jumping about in the fields on besoms to entice the crops to grow bigger.

It's also sad to see all these Christians attributing magick and whatnot to the Devil because last time I checked, according to their beliefs, only God was supposed to have the power of creation...that is...to bring into being something that supposedly wasn't there before. So if they are saying these...powers...come from the Devil or Satan (whatever you choose to call it) then they are putting this entity on the same level as God...thus making him a Deity in his own right. That is in direct conflict with the Bible.

Unfortunately I make it a policy not to lie...so sorry to disappoint you, but it's out there.

The Craft BOS.pdf (http://eclecticmagick.com/thecraft/TheCraft.pdf)



This in itself is sad, since Catholic Priests, in their own way, perform sympathetic magick. How else can you rectify turning a wafer and a mouthful of wine into the blood and body of Christ? It is simple sympathetic magick. The same kind Pagan farmers used to use when they went jumping about in the fields on besoms to entice the crops to grow bigger.

It's also sad to see all these Christians attributing magick and whatnot to the Devil because last time I checked, according to their beliefs, only God was supposed to have the power of creation...that is...to bring into being something that supposedly wasn't there before. So if they are saying these...powers...come from the Devil or Satan (whatever you choose to call it) then they are putting this entity on the same level as God...thus making him a Deity in his own right. That is in direct conflict with the Bible.


Ah,fair enough. I have that same policy.

I agree with you, about Christianity's use of magick via Church ceremony. I've tried to explain to them in their own terms about magick. One way being, that I'd state if magick were real, it would come from God, since He would be the source of all thing, correct? Or that if it was real, He would allow people to use it as they wished...which would be the whole "Free will" thing and thus making magick neutral. I've also tried explaining that, were I to believe in the existance of God and the Devil, to me, God would logically allow the Devil to exist and give him his abilities, so anything that the Devil is attributed for is really part of God's plan, and comes from him by proxy, including magick, if they insist it's "satanic". That's about the time I'm told I should repent and confess.

Edit: I skimmed over the the Book of Shadow's you posted, and I've to agree with you..it's not very credible. It makes me wonder how many people use it, or try to...

:rolleyes: if you are not Jewish, Arabic, or possibly Ethiopian - you've been duped. That God is not one of yours. Don't worry, he's been pulling this crap for years. Can you believe he converted the entire ROMAN EMPIRE to worshipping him??? He's persistant, I'll say that much. But you can see through it once you know how - below him, before him, the Old Gods still exist, Mother Earth, Father Sky, and their children, who I know are my true deities. Think about it - which is more likely, that a God that we've only known about for 2000 years is our Lord, or that the Gods we've worshipped since time immemorial are?

Of course, you may be Jewish, Arabic, or Ethiopian. In which case I apologize - YHWH truly IS your God. Then may we both worship our own God's in peace :)

You obviously don't know that christians are basically Jews who believe the Jewish messiah has come to earth already. It's the same God, we didn't just make him up 2000 years ago, that's why Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John, etc..... were all Jews, they believed that Jesus was YHWH incarnate. In fact for nearly a century the Jews who believed in Jesus and the Jews who did not went to synagogue together. This stopped when the Jews who believed in Jesus refused to help the Jews who did not rise up against Rome because of their belief in peace. Once that happened they started to be seen by the outside world as separate from the Jews even though they really weren't.

Can you blame him/her? You insulted his/her set of beliefs; would you not react the same way if someone said that your religion was evil?

I would like to know why you believe that Witchcraft is evil. Perhaps we can come to an understanding.

THANK U!

You obviously don't know that christians are basically Jews who believe the Jewish messiah has come to earth already. It's the same God, we didn't just make him up 2000 years ago, that's why Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John, etc..... were all Jews, they believed that Jesus was YHWH incarnate. In fact for nearly a century the Jews who believed in Jesus and the Jews who did not went to synagogue together. This stopped when the Jews who believed in Jesus refused to help the Jews who did not rise up against Rome because of their belief in peace. Once that happened they started to be seen by the outside world as separate from the Jews even though they really weren't.

Actually, historians believe the early Christians were initially a Jewish separatist sect. They removed themselves from mainstream Jewish culture to live more "purely" by the the Jewish laws (at least as they interpretted them). In John 8:44, Jesus actually calls the Jews "children of the devil". Unfortunately,because of anti-Semitism created by this statement, by the end of the Gospels, the demonization of outsiders (non-Jews) had in turn been focused ON the Jews and anyone else that did not support Jesus and the "new" church.

You have to define what witchcraft is. And even then... who wouldn't want a hot seductive which seducing them... I mean seriously people. Ok well if we're talking about the wiccan way of life, that's all good. Most people's views on witches are completely distorted anyways.

You have to define what witchcraft is. And even then... who wouldn't want a hot seductive which seducing them... I mean seriously people. Ok well if we're talking about the wiccan way of life, that's all good. Most people's views on witches are completely distorted anyways.

Yes, unfortanetly, very true. When the European colinies and American as well burned witches, but then didn't have enough proof in order to convit them. People still beleive that they cast curses and hexes on people; partly true. Some use Black Magick or magick that is used to hurt someone but then most people use White Magick or magick that use for good uses for other people and protection. Of corse, that sterotyping still exists...

Yes, unfortanetly, very true. When the European colinies and American as well burned witches, but then didn't have enough proof in order to convit them. People still beleive that they cast curses and hexes on people; partly true. Some use Black Magick or magick that is used to hurt someone but then most people use White Magick or magick that use for good uses for other people and protection. Of corse, that sterotyping still exists...

Like I said before, most (though I can't give an accurate percentage) of those burned as witches were not witches. It was political and/or greed. Many of the women burned as witches were midwives. Doctors got tired of the midwives getting all the business, so they began accusing them of witchcraft. Gets them out of the way so the docs could make more money. The Church made it a regular practice of condemning those that had wealth or property so that after the conviction and execution, they could then appropriate the estate. Even some of those that were let go after being accused never regained their property. The only one in the Colonies that may have very well been a witch was Tituba, and she just remained imprisoned until they decided to let her go.

Now, I'm by no means trying to brush this off as though it wasn't a horrendous occurance, because witchcraft was blamed. I'm simply stating that it wasn't the true reason.

Perhaps the most famous Greek ritual today is an invocation performed before attempting an exorcism, known as the Rite of the Headless One:
Write the names upon a piece of new paper, and having extended it over your forehead from one temple to the other, address yourself turning towards the north to the six names, saying…

Compare this, then, with a quote from the Key of Solomon the King, Book I, chapter 13:
Write upon a slip of virgin parchment…this Character and Name; ...thou shalt hold with thy right hand the aforesaid strip of parchment against thy forehead, and thou shalt say the following words

Like I said before, most (though I can't give an accurate percentage) of those burned as witches were not witches.

I would say 0% or close to that. Though that is a guess, most of those killed for witchcraft rarely left any evidence behind to either support or deny the charge. We don't even know the exact numbers of those killed as witches. It is generally assumed that they weren't witches. Though there is evidence of accused actually becoming convinced they were witches.

It was political and/or greed. Many of the women burned as witches were midwives. Doctors got tired of the midwives getting all the business, so they began accusing them of witchcraft. Gets them out of the way so the docs could make more money. The Church made it a regular practice of condemning those that had wealth or property so that after the conviction and execution, they could then appropriate the estate. Even some of those that were let go after being accused never regained their property. The only one in the Colonies that may have very well been a witch was Tituba, and she just remained imprisoned until they decided to let her go.

You are simplyifying a complex problem. Even professional historians aren't in agreement to why people were acccused. They can only guess. Something made harder by the fact that the witch craze differed from country to country quite drastically.

Now, I'm by no means trying to brush this off as though it wasn't a horrendous occurance, because witchcraft was blamed. I'm simply stating that it wasn't the true reason.

The word has changed meanings. What was considered witchcraft then, isn't exactly the same as what is considered witchcraft now.

(Unless of course you have a third nipple where the devil/your familiar suckles and you get kicks out of causing harvests to fail.)

I would say 0% or close to that. Though that is a guess, most of those killed for witchcraft rarely left any evidence behind to either support or deny the charge. We don't even know the exact numbers of those killed as witches. It is generally assumed that they weren't witches. Though there is evidence of accused actually becoming convinced they were witches.



You are simplyifying a complex problem. Even professional historians aren't in agreement to why people were acccused. They can only guess. Something made harder by the fact that the witch craze differed from country to country quite drastically.



The word has changed meanings. What was considered witchcraft then, isn't exactly the same as what is considered witchcraft now.

(Unless of course you have a third nipple where the devil/your familiar suckles and you get kicks out of causing harvests to fail.)


Actually, there is documentation. Historians have names and accounts of events in Europe. As far as the situation between wise women/midwives and the doctors...this statement from the era should sum that up.

"If a woman dare to cure without having studied, she is a Witch and must die."

And of course, women weren't allowed into medical school at the time.

And it is highly documented that the estates of accused "witches" were confiscated. The torturers were paid from the victim's funds. The estate paid for the cost of the torture, the torturers' meals, lodging, entertainment, and travel. (Guiley, Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft, 341-43)

It is also unclear just how many were killed, but modern historians put the number between 40,000 and 200,000, most of which were women and Germans. (Gibbons, "Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt." The Pomegranate 5 (Aug 1998): 2-6)

Also: The Burning Times (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm)
Information on the Burning Times (http://paganwiccan.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=paganwiccan&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fme.essortment.com%2Finformationburn_rjpa.htm)

There are possible hundreds of links on the internet, but I don't have the time to track them all down.

I love that film!

Hell yes. Motoko Kusanagi makes me touch myself at night.

On a related note, they've got a full-fledged GitS series out now, "Stand Alone Complex", which is in it's second season in Japan and the first season is playing here in the US on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim block.

Actually, there is documentation. Historians have names and accounts of events in Europe. As far as the situation between wise women/midwives and the doctors...this statement from the era should sum that up.


And of course, women weren't allowed into medical school at the time.

And it is highly documented that the estates of accused "witches" were confiscated. The torturers were paid from the victim's funds. The estate paid for the cost of the torture, the torturers' meals, lodging, entertainment, and travel. (Guiley, Encyclopedia of Witches and Witchcraft, 341-43)

It is also unclear just how many were killed, but modern historians put the number between 40,000 and 200,000, most of which were women and Germans. (Gibbons, "Recent Developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt." The Pomegranate 5 (Aug 1998): 2-6)

Also: The Burning Times (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn.htm)
Information on the Burning Times (http://paganwiccan.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=paganwiccan&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fme.essortment.com%2Finformationburn_rjpa.htm)

There are possible hundreds of links on the internet, but I don't have the time to track them all down.


Didn't a scottish king go beserk and order the execution of many so called "witches",too?

It's also sad to see all these Christians attributing magick and whatnot to the Devil because last time I checked, according to their beliefs, only God was supposed to have the power of creation...that is...to bring into being something that supposedly wasn't there before. So if they are saying these...powers...come from the Devil or Satan (whatever you choose to call it) then they are putting this entity on the same level as God...thus making him a Deity in his own right. That is in direct conflict with the Bible.

Ok, I had to respond to this, as it seems a lot of you have the wrong idea of Christianity and powers.
God does have sole powers over creation. However, Satan (or whatever you want to call the fallen angel) has power to pervert creation to his own ends. He can take what is already there an manipulate it to cause the children of God to fall.
The first example is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God created it because without the possibility of rebellion, worship from mankind is not truly worship, but the only recourse. The tree was part of His perfect plan. Then, Satan came and enticed man to eat of the tree, using creation in a manner opposite of it's intented purpose in order to cause man to fall, in turn causing God to be pained at the loss of His children.
That is what "magic" is, the perverted or twisted use of God's creation to achieve a purpose outside of God's plan. If all the witches out there claiming to be using magic through God really were acting according to His plan, they wouldn't call it magic, which defies God's will, and rather the exercise of God's power.

If anybody's interested, the term 'warlock' actually means 'oathbreaker'.

It also means truth twister. Which is why in the Salem Witch Trials, where Wiccans, (thus disproving the theory that wicca has only been around sice the '40s), were tried as Witches, the males that were tried were refered to as warlocks as they were considered to be 'twisting the truth of God', by following a mother based religion.

I sincerely hope not; if you want a movie that comes very close (but still not accurate) to representing Witchcraft, it's Practical Magic. The Craft was just stereotypical, even if it had a practicing witch in the film (the shopkeeper).

Okay, before y'all try to slice me to pieces, let me tell you just what I am: I am a shaman, claimed by the goddess Sekhmet, and serving the Egyptian pantheon. I only chose to serve the Powers That Be (meaning the collective of gods and goddesses of Earth as a whole); the Egyptian pantheon claimed me. While I was raised as a Christian, my outlook includes Wicca as well. But enough about me.



I have found that Wicca & Witchcraft are separate entities; the former is a religion (in that it involves deities), while the latter is an Art. Those who practice either are neither nuts nor "little girls"; I myself am over 40 years old and have been following this unique Spiritual Path of mine for the last 12 years.

Some of you seem bent to labeling those who practice that particular Spiritual Path as insane; I have found that this Path has actually helped me with some of the psychological quirks that I have. I am wondering: what are you afraid of? There is room enough for every religion; why can't we just all agree to disagree?

Oh, and for those of you who don't think that Christianity & Wicca can get along with each other: A Christian's Outlook on Wicca (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm)

Wiccans & Pagans are real people; only their outlook on religion is different.

I agree, to a certain extent. WE are not insane, just different and many of us do have psychological quirks that Wicca and Paganism can help you understand. THo I do not believe that Pagans and Wiccans are seperate religions. Paganism is the all around religion. Not in todays sense of 'anything not Christian'. Wicca is a sub-religion so to speak. Like Catholics and Protestants are to Christianity. Witchcraft is the practice of Magick at which point most do use the Wiccan/Pagan priniciples. Some just use it for evil. And this would be the little girls many have spoken about, usually look to bend someones interest towards them, teenage hormones do that. A real witch would not a s that would be bending anothers free will, which we are not for. There is a lot of ignorance out there on this topic, and the only way to demolish it is to make people ralise that we are on no way out to get people and turn them into frogs. Yes there has been alot of religious ignorance in the past, but we have put this behind us - WHY CAN'T EVERYONE ELSE?!?!?!?

I agree, to a certain extent. WE are not insane, just different and many of us do have psychological quirks that Wicca and Paganism can help you understand. THo I do not believe that Pagans and Wiccans are seperate religions. Paganism is the all around religion. Not in todays sense of 'anything not Christian'. Wicca is a sub-religion so to speak. Like Catholics and Protestants are to Christianity. Witchcraft is the practice of Magick at which point most do use the Wiccan/Pagan priniciples. Some just use it for evil. And this would be the little girls many have spoken about, usually look to bend someones interest towards them, teenage hormones do that. A real witch would not a s that would be bending anothers free will, which we are not for. There is a lot of ignorance out there on this topic, and the only way to demolish it is to make people ralise that we are on no way out to get people and turn them into frogs. Yes there has been alot of religious ignorance in the past, but we have put this behind us - WHY CAN'T EVERYONE ELSE?!?!?!?

I disagree with your statement on Paganism and Wicca being related. In my mind, they are very much seperate. Wicca is a stand alone belief system, and its core principals were based very much on Christianity. A lot of Pagans don't believe Wicca to be related to, or categorized under, Paganism.

Hell yes. Motoko Kusanagi makes me touch myself at night.

On a related note, they've got a full-fledged GitS series out now, "Stand Alone Complex", which is in it's second season in Japan and the first season is playing here in the US on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim block.
I've heard that they may also be getting the second season; I love the series, even though I've never seen the movie.

Okay, end of my involvement in this tangent.... ;)

Magic is, was, and always will be, power drawn from the devil. I am not saying that the witch is aware that it is. I am just saying that it is. This is different from miracles because miracles are from God. God sends a miracle when he so chooses, but witches try to alter the world to how they want, regardless of what God wants. As for the quote "christian witches", you willing to bet your eternal soul on God powering your spells?

And Satan, the devil, used to be a good angel. If you want to say that a witch would know if a pact was formed with the evil one, Satan can still act like what he was.

you willing to bet your eternal soul on God powering your spells?


You willing to bet your eternal soul on God inspiring the Bible?

Ok, I had to respond to this, as it seems a lot of you have the wrong idea of Christianity and powers.
Don't count me in that; I was raised Christian and have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. (Cure for insomnia: Book of Job. All those speeches.... ;) ) You are talking as if we are all the same mindset as you - and that is scientifically impossible. All of us worship the deity or deities (as in my case) that they have either been raised to worship or choose to worship.

God does have sole powers over creation. However, Satan (or whatever you want to call the fallen angel) has power to pervert creation to his own ends. He can take what is already there an manipulate it to cause the children of God to fall.
You are not taking into account that "God" is a title for the Being who created our universe. I have found that many religions have different Names for "God"; I call "God" The One Who Always IS (or "The One" for short.) I --and many people of other religions-- do not believe in a personification of Evil. Evil does exist in many ways and forms.

That is what "magic" is, the perverted or twisted use of God's creation to achieve a purpose outside of God's plan. If all the witches out there claiming to be using magic through God really were acting according to His plan, they wouldn't call it magic, which defies God's will, and rather the exercise of God's power.
You are wrong. Magick (not the illusionist's kind, btw, which is why I'm using Crowley's spelling of the word) is the manipulation of energy by a person using spells and/or rituals and/or the person's mind. Parapsychic abilities are, in a way, magick as they are the manipulation of energy via the mind. (Notice that I did not say "brain".) Prayer is your own magick; it is a way for your mind to talk to Christ, who is your chosen deity for permission to manipulate energies to your will. So don't give me this BS about magic being "satanic" or "of the Devil".

Did you even go to the Jim Taylor's essay on that website? You should as Jim is an Episcopalian (sp; one of words I can pronounce but can't spell!) and a moderator of the FIDOnet newsgroup "Interfaith." If you want to know how that essay managed to pop up on the web, it's because I uploaded the essay (with permission) into AOL's database at keyword PAGAN. I'm not sure if it is still there... but I digress. I strongly suggest that you read what Jim has to say as he has chosen to be "God's Own Fool", which is a vocation in that demonination of the Christian Church.

Next time, Falconus Peregrinus --do some research before you come out with statements like this. You will look less like an Idiot if you do.

I disagree with your statement on Paganism and Wicca being related. In my mind, they are very much seperate. Wicca is a stand alone belief system, and its core principals were based very much on Christianity. A lot of Pagans don't believe Wicca to be related to, or categorized under, Paganism.
This is why I call myself "shaman" first; people have some idea of what Shamans are. (However, I don't need to do psychogenic drugs to Listen to my deities. That "ear" is already open far enough for me hear Them.) And yes, the Ancient Egyptians did have their own version of shamans.... ;)

Magic is, was, and always will be, power drawn from the devil. I am not saying that the witch is aware that it is. I am just saying that it is. This is different from miracles because miracles are from God. God sends a miracle when he so chooses, but witches try to alter the world to how they want, regardless of what God wants. As for the quote "christian witches", you willing to bet your eternal soul on God powering your spells?

And Satan, the devil, used to be a good angel. If you want to say that a witch would know if a pact was formed with the evil one, Satan can still act like what he was.
I suggest you read what I said to Falconus Peregrinus as the same applies to you.

This is why I call myself "shaman" first; people have some idea of what Shamans are. (However, I don't need to do psychogenic drugs to Listen to my deities. That "ear" is already open far enough for me hear Them.) And yes, the Ancient Egyptians did have their own version of shamans.... ;)


*laughs*I know a LOT about the Egyptians. I love the society, and my fiancee plans on being an archaeologist, and I've considered the same. As for being a Shaman..good on you. Not enough of 'em left, I say. I've actually recommended people to them before. No worries...I won't harass you about drugs. *grins*

However..a cautionary, but friendly note. Calling someone an "idiot" only puts them on the defensive, and is significantly less likely to listen to you, or anyone else with your viewpoints at that time, and perhaps even later on down the road.