NationStates Jolt Archive

That is totally disgusting and I couldn't agree more with you. It shows how low the western world's moral standards are. I would rather we had muslim standards on morals than than what we have now in the west.
Yeah, that's a great idea. We can stone women to death if they get laid before marriage. Even if they're raped, unless of course they can find 4 upstanding muslim men who witnessed the crime. Islamic morality is truly an oxymoron.

america made germany pay an equivalent of $1,000,000,000,000 today germany got

I forgot about this. Roosevelt wanted NO reparations WHATSOEVER! Check out the Fourteen Points, maybe learn some history while you are at it. The UK and France demanded reparations from germany. They wanted to leave Germany with NOTHING. All the regulations, inability to rearm themselves, leave them in the stone age was NOT an American plan. Again, "Fuck you"

in the 1500s the catholic church was corrupt the corruption ended around 1555 with the treaty of augsburg and the beginning of the counter revolution. Now if the Catholic Church is bad them america is the evilest place on earth.

Internment camps
Nuclear warheads on Japanese 2 major cities
Mass killing of captured japenese
Blaming Germany on everything since kindergarten Just because of ww2 they blame germany when its all servia's fault. Yes they started ww1 america made germany pay an equivalent of $1,000,000,000,000 today germany got created pissed off and then yea you know the rest unless you are from north korea where they teach that anne frank's nazis were americans but lets not go into the north korean educational system
The genocide of "native" americans and their relocation
future destruction of good
starting wars with defenceless people but don't help those in need
ignoring un

yea well compared to the catholic church america isn't looking too good.
Take a high school history class. Then try again.

yea well compared to the catholic church america isn't looking too good.

Ever hear of "The Inquisition?" How about "The Crusades?" Better yet, do a search for it on the internet, an AMERICAN invention. Think of it like a mini-holocaust. Then you tell me who is worse.

:sniper: All right, there's a lot of stuff here, and since I will be taking shots at the various posts here, I found the face appropriate. To start off with, as a real-live student of history, consistently earning top grades in not just history, but science, english, mathematics, and just about any other subject you care to mention, I've got at least some ground to stand on. First of all, addressing my home turf, everyone who has referenced the historical trends involved (skimming through the previous pages I saw a mention of sixteenth century Europe) needs to shut up and move on. The greatest challenge faced by historical researchers and writers is that the kind of data mentioned in these posts as factual does not exist. In general, the common man did not write down anything that has survived, for two reasons. These reasons are nothing more complicated than illiteracy and the need to work when the sun was up to live. Do not even try to say that we know the truth because of the records left by the educated, because education necessitates wealth, and wealth overwhelmingly includes despising the lower classes. By the eighteenth century, records of the public at large are showing their faintest traces, and will not truly become prevalent until the large bureaucratic absolute states of the later nineteenth century. If you are going to try to point out historical trends, you have no legs to stand on until roughly the last 150 years. Anything you have heard or "know" about the days before will mostly come from novels written within the past 150 years.

Next up is the idea of "Western Christian Morality", I believe it was written something like that on an earlier post. Once again, the contempt shown when this phrase was used is largely bred out of a complete misunderstanding of history. I will not assume anyone has a decent starting base of knowledge, lest I lose you along the way. I know that there are those who already know what I am writing, but bear with me for those who do not. Christianity, from a completely secular point of view (this is almost a textbook definition), begins as a sect of Judaism in the first century AD. A Christian was (and ideally still is) a person who models their life after Christ. Within a few short centuries, the simple message of living a decent life, without a need to give anything you own to anybody else (unlike the multitude of state religions) turns the simple sect into a force that first demands the notice of the state, and finally reaches a peak (in those days) of becoming the official religion of the State (much as Russia has been considered Orthodox or Atheist, as Iran is considered Muslim, or as the U.S.A. has been considered Protestant). Following the fall of Rome (a reality in books more than in history, the fall of Rome is simply the conversion of the throne to the "Germanic Barbarians") Christianity has so greatly spread throughout Europe, that the Roman (as in Rome, everybody's perception of power and importance) Catholic (a word which means Universal) Church has a strong power base in every country. Unwilling to cause unrest in those shared power bases, or to completely throw off the blessings of Rome (which every European state claims descent from), every European throne is filled with a man who at least (although usually at most) nominally accepts a role as a friend of the Church (either the Catholic Church in Western Europe, or the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe, the main difference being which part of the Roman Empire the States were part of).

To bring the illustration down a level, in the movie Dodgeball, attorney Kate Veech (I believe that is the how the name is spelled) is assigned to work with both Globo Gym and Average Joe's Gymnasium. She works with/for both of them, but is not actually a part of either. And so it was with the vast majority of European leaders, including the Church leadership. At least in name they worked for the Church or for God. In reality, they worked for either themselves or some other group (such as their family). Now then, what of the misconception I claimed. Every one of the people reading this can rattle off a list of the atrocities committed by medieval (and earlier, and later) Europe but how many similar things can you name for any other region of the world. The misconception is that non-Europeans were peaceful or nice. The truth is that Europeans, compared to other parts of the world, were diligent in recording the important activities (this is not a contradiction to the above statement, the important activities were all considered points of great honor to wealthy families interested in showing their participation in said activity). To use a common example of a "Western Christian" atrocity, let's take the crusades. A condemnation of this (to speak roughly) century and a half as an intolerable act by over aggressive European Christianity ignores the fact that the first Crusade was only successful because the different factions of the Muslim world refused to stop slaughtering each other long enough to drive out the Europeans (a point they quickly learned, every subsequent Crusade saw the Muslim world halt it's self-annihilation, long enough to drive out invaders, whom, after the first crusade, were seldom coming to the Middle East to drive the Muslims out of Muslim land, but rather to defend the withering Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, which faced constant assaults by the more-peaceful Islamic sects). That is before even mentioning that a force referred to in Europe as the "Scourge of God" swept up and down Asia, into the Middle East, and Eastern Europe. For those who haven't already guessed it, I mean the Mongol Hordes under their various Khans. As the Mongols swept through the Middle East, they left records of such activities as showing mercy on Muslim leaders by trampling them to death with horses while they were trapped in felt bags, or by wiping out entire Sects of Islam (such as the Ismaili Assassins). The Mongols, who in their first explosion on the world scene (the thirteenth century) killed so many people that estimates run as high as 2/3 of all Asia, and were never fully taken out of the world scene for several centuries. "Christian" Europe was not snow white, but each of her neighbors, whether Islamic, "pagan", or any of the multitude of Asian religions has seen just as much bloodshed and committed deeds at least as foul. More later.

And one last thing (for now), if anyone cares to attack this or anything else I post, please attack it with supportable facts rather than a "your mom goes to college"-type comment.

:sniper: The next thing I'd like to address is the soul. Before I start, I'd like to thank the people on both sides of the argument for giving me all the necessary tools to work with. Reference has been made to great thinkers such as "Locke, Franklin, Rousseau" as champions of civil liberty. How many people here have actually read the writing of all three of those men? How about two? Or one. All right then, you can't have it both ways. Those of you who have attacked the soul are generally on the same side as those who support the vague term you charge as "civil liberties" (by the way, how many people have read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or any other documents your true civil liberties are based on). All three of them make reference to the soul, and not in an offensive manner. Until Nietzsche (Now I'll help those who wish to attack "Western Christian Morality", the fact that it produced Nietzsche is the greatest attack that can be levelled on it), only scattered thinkers went so far as to deny things because they could not be seen. For those who wish to deny the soul, you might as well begin working out your attack on air and the mind. After all, you can't see those either. But who are we kidding, we both know why the soul is a subject of attack while other intangibles are left alone. The soul has a theological significance. I just wish more people would come out and say what they believe rather than hide behind petty unanswerables.

Omg a fellow Nietzsche reader! Good to see one.

deaths of millions of 'innocent people', you mean civillians? i fail to see how invading Japan with land-forces would cause more deaths than two fucking huge bombs being dropped straight onto centres of population of those innocent people. and without warning - with a ground assault civilians could at least have evacuated the cities before fighting started. GI's are professional soldiers who take the risk of being killed in war - surely it is more prudent, or at least more moral, to risk their lives (potentially tens of thousands, yes) rather than directly kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
as an aside, what is your source for that information?

Who is that said my favorite quote here..."It's better to leave your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt"

Yea...are you an idiot? What do you think happens in war? Especially one with the vigilent Japanese? The guys who crach their planes after running after ammo into the enemy? Yea, those guys. Japanese culture doesn't exactly "encourage" surrender. And Japan still had a lot of ground troops, it's not like America could walk right in and say "Hey, you're occupied. Start making us video game consoles and cartoons"

No, it's not that simple. There would be a slow progression through the pacific and the Japanese islands. Which would kill a great number of people. Let's not forget that the Japense were fucking owning China and had a giant ass foothold there.

surely it is more prudent, or at least more moral, to risk their lives (potentially tens of thousands, yes) rather than directly kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people

First off, the comment "potentially tens of thousands" should not followed with a yes. Nobody gave estimates that low, standard American estimates were in the one million U.S. casualties range. This in a war that had so far cost America a (comparatively small) few hundred thousand casualties.

as an aside, what is your source for that information?

As for sources, check any declassified war records, declasssified records from Truman, or newspaper records of the day. As for the idea that the Japanese would have simply evacuated their cities, forget it. Even after the Japanese had surrendered, the military still ordered civillians to stay and fight (which fortunately, almost none did). And lest we forget, the bombs weren't dropped at the same time. The Japanese still tried to fight for several days after the first bomb was dropped.

Until Nietzsche (Now I'll help those who wish to attack "Western Christian Morality", the fact that it produced Nietzsche is the greatest attack that can be levelled on it), only scattered thinkers went so far as to deny things because they could not be seen. For those who wish to deny the soul, you might as well begin working out your attack on air and the mind. After all, you can't see those either. But who are we kidding, we both know why the soul is a subject of attack while other intangibles are left alone. The soul has a theological significance. I just wish more people would come out and say what they believe rather than hide behind petty unanswerables.
I have read the condensed theories of both Locke and Rousseau (not their actual books, yet) and neither of thier writings mentioned the soul. that said i was studying them for my political philosophy module and i suppose the soul wouldn't be relavent to what we were studying...
anyway, i applaud Nietzsche - if it was indeed he who began modern scepticism - for beginning an important process. scientific analysis can easily prove the existence of air - something you cannot see. it can prove the existance of photons of light, that light is a waveform (and energy, and a particle but let's not go there....), prove the existance of biological cells. These are all examples of things we cannot see, yet we can prove - hence without any proof of the soul existing we can safely deny its existance.
The mind is another matter. we can see the brain, but i assume you mean conciousness. 'i think therefore i am' goes some way to proving this - the very fact that one is concious proves conciousness and 'the mind' (but this is probably a debate for another day)

i think therefore i am]

That can only be applied to yourself.

And that alone is the only absolutely true fact that can be proven.

(To yourself.)

First off, the comment "potentially tens of thousands" should not followed with a yes. Nobody gave estimates that low, standard American estimates were in the one million U.S. casualties range. This in a war that had so far cost America a (comparatively small) few hundred thousand casualties.

As for sources, check any declassified war records, declasssified records from Truman, or newspaper records of the day. As for the idea that the Japanese would have simply evacuated their cities, forget it. Even after the Japanese had surrendered, the military still ordered civillians to stay and fight (which fortunately, almost none did). And lest we forget, the bombs weren't dropped at the same time. The Japanese still tried to fight for several days after the first bomb was dropped.well i have checked the facts and concede - perhaps the sacrifice of innocents is justified to save even more people. as for the evacuation thing, i did not know that.
i just felt like an arguement :)

]

That can only be applied to yourself.

And that alone is the only absolutely true fact that can be proven.

(To yourself.)
indeed.
however, staying on topic (and swiftly avoiding this philisophical landmine) this does not discount from the fact that the soul has not, and perhaps cannot be scientifically proven. thus it can be denied existance - hence why religion is 'belief' and not 'fact'
evidently neither can the mind, or conciousness, hence why this is philosophy and not science.

]That can only be applied to yourself.

And that alone is the only absolutely true fact that can be proven.

(To yourself.)

An excellent point, which shows good understanding of Descartes. To answer the comment on safely denying the soul, one can only safely deny the soul if one believes it is not what it is supposed to be and that it does not exist. I believe that it does, and can find no safe way to deny it. From there, a question and a comment. My question is, how much Nietzsche have you actually read? My comment is to thank you. You have restored to me a degree of faith in mankind. ]well i have checked the facts and concedeYou have earned some respect for me. One of the great problems with arguing today is that nobody is willing to do just that.

Thank you, Machiavellian Origin for backing me up.


well i have checked the facts and concede
But thank you even more to Pure Metal for checking the facts. :)

And to be perfectly honest, I only threw the comment on Nietzsche in there to find someone who wanted to defend him.

the soul, one can only safely deny the soul if one believes it is not what it is supposed to be and that it does not exist. I believe that it does, and can find no safe way to deny it.
i'm sorry, although philosophy is facinating to me i can never find time to study it, so forgive me if this is a stupid arguement/understanding. you are saying that because you believe in the soul, you do not have to - or cannot - disprove it exists? because it exists to you, in your mind, it inherently cannot be denied existance? interesting standpoint, simliar to Perisa's Descartes counter-arguement. would like to debate further but i need sleep...

But thank you even more to Pure Metal for checking the facts. :)

You have earned some respect for me. One of the great problems with arguing today is that nobody is willing to do just that.
woohoo i earned some brownie points! :D

Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

I don't think clothing has anything to do with it, you can just ask my dad's best friend who is only a 2 years older than him (72), or his son..... who is 57 (you do the math)

i'm sorry, although philosophy is facinating to me i can never find time to study it, so forgive me if this is a stupid arguement/understanding. you are saying that because you believe in the soul, you do not have to - or cannot - disprove it exists? because it exists to you, in your mind, it inherently cannot be denied existance? interesting standpoint, simliar to Perisa's Descartes counter-arguement.

A nice try, especially for a tired person. The main flaw in what you suggested is that I don't but into the idea of subjective truth. The fact that I believe in something isn't doesn't make it true unless it really is. What I am actually trying to say is that if the soul is taken as being the truest part of a person, breathed into a body by God himself (to use a general religious definition), the only way a denial of the soul can be safely made is if it is not believed to be a real thing. If, however, a person believes the soul to truly be something along those lines, the most dangerous activity that person could ever undertake is a denial of it. Does that make more sense?

It seems that society decides morals, and morals do not decide society. Things change, and they slowly change back. If you don't like how it is, suffer.

Okay, both sides have very valid points, but i'm seeing some ignorance in both. Heres what I agree with:

You think sex without marriage is immoral, but the lack of birth control is just irresponsible.

Don't you think pregnant women aren't dying in Iraq as 'collateral damage'?

"Actually, it's the removal of cells that cannot sustain life on their own. As
long as the fetus has not been born, it is dependant upon a mother"

Although I think the reasoning he used to get to that point is flawed.

Ahhh. No conservative rant would be complete without a mention of sodomy.

What type of life are you providing for the babies you save? You aren't pro-life. You're pro-birth.

Now, for Holy Paradise, heres what I agree with:

See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions!

You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption!

You care only about your freaking ass "rights"
but I wouldnt say that about liberals. I would say it about women. Thats fucking ignorant to say

OOC: I love society.

A nice try, especially for a tired person. The main flaw in what you suggested is that I don't but into the idea of subjective truth. The fact that I believe in something isn't doesn't make it true unless it really is. What I am actually trying to say is that if the soul is taken as being the truest part of a person, breathed into a body by God himself (to use a general religious definition), the only way a denial of the soul can be safely made is if it is not believed to be a real thing. If, however, a person believes the soul to truly be something along those lines, the most dangerous activity that person could ever undertake is a denial of it. Does that make more sense?
it certainly does although i am even more tired now :D (its quarter to 4 am here :headbang: )
Only those who do not believe in the soul can deny it - as to them there is nothing to 'measure' or test. while, for a person who believes their soul is an integral part of their being, to deny it would be dangerous. they would be saying part of themselves does not exist. is that any closer to your point?
if it is... 'dangerous' may not be the best term to use, although i am not sure what would (damn my sleepy head). It wouldn't be mortally or physically dangerous to the believer denying their soul, but mentally... problematic.
however this still does not definitively prove the soul's existance

unless you watch James Brown cos there's true soul :p ..... now i may sleep.

this is in character? since when?

You're just about there, but have not taken it quite far enough. If the soul is believed to be what I earlier cited it as, a denial of it implies a denial of the God who created it, and consequently, the God who created the denier. At which point dangerous begins to become a more accurate word. As Blaise Pascal described in his wager theory, if God is not true, than man loses nothing by not believing in Him, and gains nothing by believing. However, if God is real, a man who denies Him loses everything (Hell), while a man who believes gains everything (Heaven). It's about consequences. If there is no belief in God or the Soul, both can be (and this is the critical part, to your own perception) safely denied. If they do exist, all of a sudden, serious consequences begin to attach to both choices. One of the problems you're having though, is the idea of proof. I am not trying to prove that the soul or God exists to you. For that matter, there is only faith, "the evidence of things not seen." That might sound like a cheap way out, but is it really? In a lot of ways, faith is not an easy out, but the hardest route of all. The phrase goes something like "seeing is believing," but it is not. Seeing is the end of belief and the beginning of proof. And if God were to come down and rip the mountains asunder, who would dare deny it? But if God only gave a few signs of his truth, and forced faith as the proof, who would follow it? In the first scenario, everyone believes, and few act out of genuine desire (much like a large group fighting for the status quo). But in the latter scenario, the only followers are the most dedicated (much like a group fighting against the status quo for what they know is right). Alright, now I'm getting really tired. So it is time for me to sleep too.

You're just about there, but have not taken it quite far enough. If the soul is believed to be what I earlier cited it as, a denial of it implies a denial of the God who created it, and consequently, the God who created the denier. At which point dangerous begins to become a more accurate word. As Blaise Pascal described in his wager theory, if God is not true, than man loses nothing by not believing in Him, and gains nothing by believing. However, if God is real, a man who denies Him loses everything (Hell), while a man who believes gains everything (Heaven). It's about consequences. If there is no belief in God or the Soul, both can be (and this is the critical part, to your own perception) safely denied. If they do exist, all of a sudden, serious consequences begin to attach to both choices. One of the problems you're having though, is the idea of proof. I am not trying to prove that the soul or God exists to you. For that matter, there is only faith, "the evidence of things not seen." That might sound like a cheap way out, but is it really? In a lot of ways, faith is not an easy out, but the hardest route of all. The phrase goes something like "seeing is believing," but it is not. Seeing is the end of belief and the beginning of proof. And if God were to come down and rip the mountains asunder, who would dare deny it? But if God only gave a few signs of his truth, and forced faith as the proof, who would follow it? In the first scenario, everyone believes, and few act out of genuine desire (much like a large group fighting for the status quo). But in the latter scenario, the only followers are the most dedicated (much like a group fighting against the status quo for what they know is right). Alright, now I'm getting really tired. So it is time for me to sleep too.
Pascal's Wager was inherently flawed.
Shall I explain, or do you know and are you just using it as an example?

Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

Dude, you're 13. You should be, you know, LIKING the midriffs and thongs.

really? so you would like girls only in long skirts? Wow how does that happen?

*CoughbrainwashCough*

And to be perfectly honest, I only threw the comment on Nietzsche in there to find someone who wanted to defend him.

I read this once on a bathroom wall:

"God is Dead" ~ Nietzsche

Scribbled below it:


"Nietzsche is Dead" ~ God

Atleast we know Nietzsche existed at one point...

And as for Nietzsche, I've read about half of Thus Spoke Zarathustra so far and only a few pages of Beyond Good & Evil

I know, I know, I should finish the books... :headbang:

and regarding Pascals theory, why is going to hell with the lack of belief a given if God exists? The existence of God doesn't give anything beyond that there is a god.

you know what is really disgusting? that there are people in this world who are so self-absorbed and selfish that they can waste time complaining about the clothing that other people choose to wear. if you find yourself with the time and energy to bitch about miniskirts, i would invite you to come join me at the clinic i volunteer at; learn what REAL problems are, learn to feel outrage at actual injustice and pain, and spend just a little of your time helping to FIX the problems in the world.

if you can feel outrage at what "them kids are wearing today" then you are too selfish and lazy to be worth anyone's time. there are people starving to death in the richest nation in the world. there are children dying of preventable diseases because their families cannot afford medicine. the leading cause of injury to adult women in America is being beaten by the man who is supposed to love them. the leading cause of death for young male minorities is homicide. fully one third of America's teens think that it's not rape if a boy forces a girl to have sex after they have gone on a date together. there are literally MILLIONS of children in the world who have no home, no family, and no food. hundreds of thousands of people are dead or dying in Asia as the result of a disaster that wiped out infrastructure across half a dozen nations.

these are actual problems. anything else is just your own arrogance and selfish pride. shame on you.

That has been the problem with Liberal propaganda.

Have sex at any ages, GO THATS FINE. Go take drugs, THATS FINE. Go and kill your hidden baby, THATS ALL FINE.

I have only a few words for the incredibly dumb and naïve girl: CONDOMS.

Screw the liberals, giving us too many rights. Now people have became a bunch of rights-loving freaks. Good job. Now people, go kill babies/take drugs/have sex with any random strangers now. Since ya'll seem to defend these ideals soo much.

LOL, I seldom read as an illogical post. Are liberals against condoms? Are they in favor of infant-killing ? It's conservatives who make proper contraception a problem, not liberals. Conservatives usually just think the solution is continence (want to keep myself for the one I truly love and such bullshit) which is utterly irrealistic, because right or wrong, people do have sex. Reminds me of an american soap in which the mother was distraught because she had found a condom in her son't wallet; well, if I had a son in age to have sex and I found a condom in his things I would be relieved that he's a responsible and won't ruin his own life nor someone else's.

Screw the liberals, giving us too many rights.

Lol...that seems like something a crazed Wahabi or Iranian mullah would say...

Morality forced is no real morality.

I read this once on a bathroom wall:

"God is Dead" ~ Nietzsche

Scribbled below it:


"Nietzsche is Dead" ~ GodI think that this is a common misunderstanding of Nietzsche's point. When he says that "God is Dead," he implies that the idea of "God" at one point had meaning. He isn't making a statement about the existence or nonexistence of God, and he isn't criticizing the worth of the idea. He's criticizing the masses for, in effect, murdering God by turning away from everything that God stood for.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.


Does it surprise me a 13 year old would make a mockery out of this. She should have had an abortion. As for being in jail, if she is grown up enough to have sex then she should have to deal with the consequences. Honestly unless she herself is absolutely tiny it would be pretty hard to hide a pregnancy. Moral.....no sex before marriage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Couple of things.

Neo-Anarchists: I've heard arguments against Pascal's theory, I'd like to hear yours too.

Ashimself: I've heard that as well.

Perisa: The assumption is that we are talking about the God of the Bible, as Pascal himself would be. The God of the Bible clearly states that hell is the reward of those who reject him.

You have barely been alive to see society going down the toilet. Back in "the Good Ol' Days" there were things like this happening not quite as often but they happened, and just cause they wore long skirts didn't mean there weren't girls willing to bear it all. This is an extreme case where someone has acted extremely unacceptably and been punished for it. It happened in the bronx an extremely poor area of New York, maybe if you religious conservative nutjobs would support Social programs this stain on your upstanding morals wouldn't have happened. Maybe if they had proper sex education instead of like most of the country where they feed it full of lies under the insistance of conservatives. And if you never got this, no matter what people are not shunned for doing evil, you save more with compassion than with condemnation, if you are religious you would pray for her and try and stop anything like this from happening. What i am sure you don't realise is people aren't excluded from your private Christian club. the world isn't beyond saving, so you should quit whining on a forum and get out and do something

I think that this is a common misunderstanding of Nietzsche's point. When he says that "God is Dead," he implies that the idea of "God" at one point had meaning. He isn't making a statement about the existence or nonexistence of God, and he isn't criticizing the worth of the idea. He's criticizing the masses for, in effect, murdering God by turning away from everything that God stood for.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

I'll agree that he says the concept of God had meaning, but given his other writings, the meaning it had was that it was purely a reflection of society, and the devolvement of God from an angry vengeful overlord to a loving forgiving God was evidence of the great decay society had gone through (specifically, he references the Jews in this).

I read this once on a bathroom wall:

"God is Dead" ~ Nietzsche

Scribbled below it:


"Nietzsche is Dead" ~ God

"Zombie Nietzsche lives!" ~ Zombie Nietzsche

"Zombie Nietzsche lives!" ~ Zombie Nietzsche
"Zombie Nietzsche is a zombie!" ~ Zombie ... God?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!


First off, you can BE pro-choice and still care about life. There are quite a few instances where Abortion would be the better choice, Rape, Incest, cases where the child would be born with a debilitating disease, how about cases where the mother is told she would DIE during childbirth?

There is no guarantee that if a mother is forced to have her child, that it's life would be better off, it takes more money, time, effort and maturity to ensure a child grows up correctly. A family that's struggling to get by can easily be brought under by the intoduction of another child.

Abortion, in my opinion, should be a choice, but it should not be an abused choice. I agree that pregnancies due to irresponsible sex might not deserve the right to have an abortion, but there are too many different situations to generalize this topic.

The reason about the clothes is that they are designed to attract men sexually, not just for warmth and to cover your private area.

So, Grandpa, you're saying that if we made girls less sexy, teens wouldn't have pre-marital sex? Yes, I can see how that would be better than wasting our god given semen by wearing condoms.

Eunuch.

I don't think I, a 13 year old, would be allowed to start pro-life protests and such.

And for good reason. Have you stopped to listen to yourself?

I would just like to salute Machiavellian Origin for their intelligence and erudition, it really does add to the forum. Even if he/she discredits my posts I don't mind as they don't do it by writing things like:

'get lost you liberal ass, don't mess with texas!'

I'm reading Machiavelli at the moment, 'The Prince', it gives one a good feel for the politics of the 15th/16th centuries.

Ehhh, 13-year-olds are amongst the most fascist people you're ever likely to encounter. I should know, I was 13. Once. For about a year.

Then things started getting better.

I'm 14 now.... don't quite know how it applies to the conversation, just wanted to put it out there

Aww. Why did the girl kill her baby? Cause she couldn't talk about it to anyone, and no-one told her about safe sex?
Sounds like symptoms of a conservative society.

Aww. Why did the girl kill her baby? Cause she couldn't talk about it to anyone, and no-one told her about safe sex?
Sounds like symptoms of a conservative society.
no, silly, it's because she wore a miniskirt! or maybe because spongebob is evil and made her do it. possibly the gays are responsible. well, at any rate, it sure can't have anything to do with good, god-fearing conservatives who work night and day to make sure that sex ed is not taught to our impressionable youngsters!

I would just like to salute Machiavellian Origin for their intelligence and erudition, it really does add to the forum. Even if he/she discredits my posts I don't mind as they don't do it by writing things like:

'get lost you liberal ass, don't mess with texas!'

I'm reading Machiavelli at the moment, 'The Prince', it gives one a good feel for the politics of the 15th/16th centuries.

Yes, reading Machiavelli is actually what got me interested in history, politics, and philosophy (I majored in the first, minored in the second, and took almost enough to minor in the last). The way I look at it, I'm not going to change people's minds on here, but I do nothing more than discredit myself by crude attacks. With interests like the ones I mentioned above, I tend to be fascinated by the way people think, and the only way to see that, is to get them to defend their own beliefs. For some strange reason, calling a person an ass tends to just help them close out everything you stand for, and somehow does not provoke a thoughtful response. But, out of curiousity, you said I discredit your posts? Maybe I just don't remember it, but when was that?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

I hope you realize you just lost everything you had going for you. One of the reasons why nobody likes Christians is because so many of us, like you, hurl fire and brimstone at everyone but fail to be any different ourselves. next time think about who you are (assuming you are a Christian) and why you are saying what you're saying.

This is probably just an urban legend, but how is it any different from one of the millions of similar murders that happen every year? It doesn't matter whether the baby is thrown out of a window or stabbed in the back of the head with a pair of scissors and has it brain sucked out with a straw before being thrown in the garbage, it's still a murdered baby. The picture of the "plastic and ketchup" doesn't seem to be working, but all you have to do is watch a video of a murder being done. You can see how the killer uses foreceps and a scalpel to slowly cut the baby's arms and legs off, you can see each individual finger and toe....

Ehhh, 13-year-olds are amongst the most fascist people you're ever likely to encounter. I should know, I was 13. Once. For about a year.

Then things started getting better.
I was only 13 for about 15 minutes. Then there's this big blur, then BAM!! Today!!

no, silly, it's because she wore a miniskirt! or maybe because spongebob is evil and made her do it. possibly the gays are responsible. well, at any rate, it sure can't have anything to do with good, god-fearing conservatives who work night and day to make sure that sex ed is not taught to our impressionable youngsters!

I'm all for sex ed- not Sex for [Teenage] Dummies. If you were trying to lower, say, gun crimes, would hand out free holsters in school, and tell all the kids exactly how to handle, fire, clean, and store a gun? Would you teach them what body parts to aim at, how to conceal their guns, and most of all reassure them that whatever gun choices they make in their life, they shouldn't let anyone tell them they are wrong? After all, if all our kids were trained on how to kill with guns and imprinted with the fact that they are free to make their own decisions regarding their guns and not have to answer to anyone, then nobody would ever think of killing anyone, right?

note: I am not in any way against owning/bearing/using guns or letting responsible kids learn how to use them responsibly. ;)

If she'd gone ahead and gotten an abortion early on no infant would have been killed and she'd be a free girl today.

Funny...the baby would still be dead...

note: I am not in any way against owning/bearing/using guns or letting responsible kids learn how to use them responsibly.
But you are against having sex or letting responisble teens learn how to have sex responsibly. They arn't planning on teaching the girls to give head and the boys to properly use sex toys. Their teaching the proper use of condoms and contraceptives. You might not hand out free holsters, but you should damn well show the kids where the safety is. You think that if the kids never seen a gun before, doesn't know how it works, he won't care? No, history shows that people who are brought up without guns being in any part of their life tend to have a bit of a facination with them when confronted with them, and certainly don't have the respect they should have for them. The same is true of sex.

BTW I think you may have gone too far with the gun symbology with holsters. You don't use a condom to hold your dick.

But you are against having sex or letting responisble teens learn how to have sex responsibly. They arn't planning on teaching the girls to give head and the boys to properly use sex toys. Their teaching the proper use of condoms and contraceptives. You might not hand out free holsters, but you should damn well show the kids where the safety is. You think that if the kids never seen a gun before, doesn't know how it works, he won't care? No, history shows that people who are brought up without guns being in any part of their life tend to have a bit of a facination with them when confronted with them, and certainly don't have the respect they should have for them. The same is true of sex.
Teen sex is never responsible. It's training them all the "proper techniques" of sex, basically telling them what they are "supposed" to do with all these things, and reinforcing the idea that whatever they choose to do is okay, and has no bad consequences. Even if it ruins their own lives, or their partner's, or their child's. What we need to teach is not how everything works, but just that it does and having sex with anyone as a teen has huge side effects- possible pregnancy, STDs, emotional wrecks, guilt, future problems with spouses, etc. The only good thing is a short-lived emotional and physical high.
Guns can be good or bad. Same with sex. I'm not against sex. If it wasn't for sex, none of us would be here. But teen sex (or sex with anyone other than you husband/wife for that matter) is like using a gun to harm people. It's irresponsible, and just plain wrong.

BTW I think you may have gone too far with the gun symbology with holsters. You don't use a condom to hold your dick.
It worked better than bullets ;)

Either way, some kid shoots off his gun where he isn't supposed to.

Teen sex is never responsible. It's training them all the "proper techniques" of sex, basically telling them what they are "supposed" to do with all these things, and reinforcing the idea that whatever they choose to do is okay, and has no bad consequences. Even if it ruins their own lives, or their partner's, or their child's. What we need to teach is not how everything works, but just that it does and having sex with anyone as a teen has huge side effects- possible pregnancy, STDs, emotional wrecks, guilt, future problems with spouses, etc. The only good thing is a short-lived emotional and physical high.
Guns can be good or bad. Same with sex. I'm not against sex. If it wasn't for sex, none of us would be here. But teen sex (or sex with anyone other than you husband/wife for that matter) is like using a gun to harm people. It's irresponsible, and just plain wrong.

It worked better than bullets ;)

So I hav eto ask. Do you think teens are just not going to have sex if sex ed isn't taught?

What we need to teach is not how everything works, but just that it does and having sex with anyone as a teen has huge side effects- possible pregnancy, STDs, emotional wrecks, guilt, future problems with spouses, etc. The only good thing is a short-lived emotional and physical high.
1. pregnancy and sti's are pretty much all they talk about in sex ed... and how to prevent them.
2. they also teach you not to do it unless you really feel ready, which kinda prevents the emotional wreck, guilt, future problems with spouses when you associate sex with being forced into it.
3. sex is more than a short lived emotional and physical high.

But teen sex (or sex with anyone other than you husband/wife for that matter) is like using a gun to harm people. It's irresponsible, and just plain wrong.
how do you figure that two unmarried adults having consentual sex is harming either of them or irresponsable for that matter.

i mean, just because you can't have sex responsably doesn't mean that no one else is capable of donning a condom and popping a pill.

fully one third of America's teens think that it's not rape if a boy forces a girl to have sex after they have gone on a date together.
that is seriously fucked up.

Funny...the baby would still be dead...
incorrect. in one case a baby would be dead, in another there would never have been a baby and therefore the baby could never have died and therefore the baby could not currently be dead. use correct English, it helps keep complex topics a little more understandable.

that is seriously fucked up.
well, they are taught that if a girl voluntarily goes out with a boy to the movies then she clearly is consenting to have sex with him, especially if she allows him to pay for the movie tickets. this all stems from the mindset that all co-ed situations MUST be sexual, that all girls who go on dates MUST be easy, and that a female who enjoys being desired or being courted by a male MUST clearly be looking for sex at all times.

how do you figure that two unmarried adults having consentual sex is harming either of them or irresponsable for that matter.

i mean, just because you can't have sex responsably doesn't mean that no one else is capable of donning a condom and popping a pill.
yeah, i was kind of wondering about that, myself. i keep my body clean and safe, and my partner does the same, so i don't see how our sexual relationship could possibly be harming either of us (or anybody else). indeed, sex is a happy part of being together, and is just one more way that we can make each other smile...it's not harmful, it's not wrong, it's not immoral, it's just two people loving each other. why is that so difficult for so many people to accept?

I am sickened by this news, and I'm probably one of the few. I am a Christian, and I try hard to practice Christian values, but when girls are wearing such revealing attire, it does make it difficult sometimes. I have had desires, and I've had a hard time controlling them. I'm 14, so it must be puberty.

We do need to get back to the old days, but there is a spirit moving through this world with bad intentions, meaning things will only get worse before the Second Coming.

Those of us who believe in God and practice Christianity must stick to our faith and resist this spirit, even if it kills us. We also must accept that things are changing for the worse, and work hard to not let it change us.

I am sickened by this news, and I'm probably one of the few.
Are you another person holding the view that we liberals aren't sickened by this?
Or have I read too much into your post?

I am a Christian, and I try hard to practice Christian values, but when girls are wearing such revealing attire, it does make it difficult sometimes... I'm 14, so it must be puberty. That is your issue then, not theirs. Just because someone wears something you deem revealing does not mean it is an invite, so to speak.

We do need to get back to the old days, but there is a spirit moving through this world with bad intentions, meaning things will only get worse before the Second Coming. People have been claiming things have been getting worse for thousands of years now. Hell, one begins to wonder if there was ever an "old days". I bet you anything it was likely just as bad then as now.

I am sickened by this news, and I'm probably one of the few. I am a Christian, and I try hard to practice Christian values, but when girls are wearing such revealing attire, it does make it difficult sometimes. I have had desires, and I've had a hard time controlling them. I'm 14, so it must be puberty.

We do need to get back to the old days, but there is a spirit moving through this world with bad intentions, meaning things will only get worse before the Second Coming.



I don't know whether to be sad or horrified, that your religious schooling seems to be inclining you to the position that rape is the fault of the victim.

yeah, i was kind of wondering about that, myself. i keep my body clean and safe, and my partner does the same, so i don't see how our sexual relationship could possibly be harming either of us (or anybody else). indeed, sex is a happy part of being together, and is just one more way that we can make each other smile...it's not harmful, it's not wrong, it's not immoral, it's just two people loving each other. why is that so difficult for so many people to accept?

It's not that, that is hard to accept.

Some people just feel that they need other people to make their decisions for them... they actively seem to enjoy handing over the reins to EVERY decision.

Unfortunately, once they buy into that self-surrender thing... they seem to feel justified in attempting to sign away everyone else's liberty, also.

I find myself secretly hoping that there is an atheist backlash building...

I don't know whether to be sad or horrified, that your religious schooling seems to be inclining you to the position that rape is the fault of the victim.

Throwing a baby out of a window and killing it, then putting in on the steps of a church?

I'm not upset with the victim because she got raped...I'm upset with the way she handled it, and the way her parents handled it.

Throwing a baby out of a window and killing it, then putting in on the steps of a church?

I'm not upset with the victim because she got raped...I'm upset with the way she handled it, and the way her parents handled it.
I believe he was referring to the wording of your post, and not referring to this specific case.

Throwing a baby out of a window and killing it, then putting in on the steps of a church?

I'm not upset with the victim because she got raped...I'm upset with the way she handled it, and the way her parents handled it.

I was referring to "I try hard to practice Christian values, but when girls are wearing such revealing attire, it does make it difficult sometimes."...

Which, as far as I can read, blames females, and their choice of attire, for YOUR inability to "keep the snake in the cage".

I HAD hoped we had got past those days.

Good god. 15 and not smart enough to use a condom? What is he, a yankee?

Mmyea... Personally, I think throwing your baby out of a window and trying to hide it from everyone is a little extreme. She could've just used a coat hanger. Unless they only had those annoying plastic ones. Mexican abortion clinic?

well, they are taught that if a girl voluntarily goes out with a boy to the movies then she clearly is consenting to have sex with him, especially if she allows him to pay for the movie tickets. this all stems from the mindset that all co-ed situations MUST be sexual, that all girls who go on dates MUST be easy, and that a female who enjoys being desired or being courted by a male MUST clearly be looking for sex at all times.
Where the hell are they taught that? I've never heard of a place. Basically, this would be telling women that they are prostitutes or slaves to any man who buys them lunch.


I am sickened by this news, and I'm probably one of the few. I am a Christian, and I try hard to practice Christian values, but when girls are wearing such revealing attire, it does make it difficult sometimes. I have had desires, and I've had a hard time controlling them. I'm 14, so it must be puberty.

Is it really that hard to keep it in your pants?


I'm not upset with the victim because she got raped...I'm upset with the way she handled it, and the way her parents handled it.
Who said she was raped? A thirteen year old had consentual sex with a fifteen year old. Likely she was always taught that her actions didn't need to have consequences, and the fact that the father works to hide what she did is further proof. He probably bailed her out of every situation, and thus she never learned anything about responsibility. To her, the baby was just another problem.

We do need to get back to the old days, but there is a spirit moving through this world with bad intentions, meaning things will only get worse before the Second Coming.
What is it with the damned end times philosophy lately?

Let's try another one. Gravity. We've been able to measure it's effects, but nobody can really explain it. Not even Einstein. Hell, he even accidentally disproved it once! So, what makes gravity work? Little gravitons? Or subatomic worker monkies that pull really hard on stuff? Well? I'm waiting...

umm... gravity is the curvature of space time by matter. einstein did a pretty damn good job at explaining gravity.

I think society is messed up and I agree with Holy Paradise. Something has to change and you can call me a 14 year old religious zealot but I would be proud to be called a religion freak.

I am sickened by this news, and I'm probably one of the few.
i think everyone is sickened by this. i'm sickened that she lacked the proper education to prevent this whole situation from happening in the first place.

I am a Christian, and I try hard to practice Christian values, but when girls are wearing such revealing attire, it does make it difficult sometimes. I have had desires, and I've had a hard time controlling them. I'm 14, so it must be puberty.

hey, well, don't worry about it. i'll wear whatever i please, and yes, this does include short shirts and tank tops in the summer...

and you won't stand a chance in hell with me. ok?

just because a girl wears "skimpy" clothes does not mean she wants sex. perhaps she enjoys the way the clothes flatter her, perhaps she feels good wearing them, perhaps it's too hot outside to bundle up with jeans and a long sleeved, baggy shirt. whatever it is, it's her choice to wear what she chooses. if that causes you to get a little boner, well, then that's your problem, not hers.

I think society is messed up and I agree with Holy Paradise. Something has to change and you can call me a 14 year old religious zealot but I would be proud to be called a religion freak.
What would you propose to change?

Is it really that hard to keep it in your pants?

Yes, sometimes it is.

Who said she was raped? A thirteen year old had consentual sex with a fifteen year old. Likely she was always taught that her actions didn't need to have consequences, and the fact that the father works to hide what she did is further proof. He probably bailed her out of every situation, and thus she never learned anything about responsibility. To her, the baby was just another problem.

To be honest, I didn't read the whole thread. I was just answering the person who said that I think the victim of the rape was at fault.

What is it with the damned end times philosophy lately?

Read Revelations. Compare it with modern events. Put two and two together. Then you will see where we get it from.

Yes, sometimes it is.
And so, it is the girl's fault?
That really doesn't make sense.

And so, it is the girl's fault?
That really doesn't make sense.

I was saying I sometimes find it hard to keep it in my pants.

Yes, sometimes it is.
if it makes it any easier, look at it this way. you're 14. chances are good no one will have sex with you anyways.

Read Revelations. Compare it with modern events. Put two and two together. Then you will see where we get it from.
read hindhu legends... according to their cyclical view of the world, we should be on a decline about now and will continue for a while... and then gradually improve... and hell, they even gave a timeline for this. revelations didn't do that.

I was saying I sometimes find it hard to keep it in my pants.
Oh, excuse me. I thought you were responding to the earlier arguments in their entirety.
Sorry about that. I really should think before jumping to conclusions.

Oh, excuse me. I thought you were responding to the earlier arguments in their entirety.
Sorry about that. I really should think before jumping to conclusions.

It's okay. I do it too. :)

I am sickened by this news, and I'm probably one of the few.

So you are better than all of us because, just because we might believe that an abortion would have been a better option, we obviously do not care about the pain of the girl or her baby? How typically self-righteous.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

I always love abortion arguments.

ProLifers: "Life begins at conception!"
Me: "Yeah, I know."
ProLifers: "Abortion kills life, it's murder."
Me: "Yep. I agree, and I'm still Pro-choice."
Them: *Look of confusion.*
Me: "I just don't care that it's killing a life."

What is it with the damned end times philosophy lately?

It's not new... certain people have been getting excited over the end times since pretty soon after the (alleged) crucifixion.

I think, what it is - is the 'good' people (those who think of themselves as better than the rest), are seeing the 'bad' people (those who don't want to be controlled by another person) somehow escaping from the damnation that they are SO SURE they must deserve.

And, just thinking that they might suffer an eternity of hell, well, it's not satisfying enough, I guess... they want to SEE evidence of torment.

Thus - they just can't WAIT for demons and fire and damnation on earth.

Throwing a baby out of a window and killing it, then putting in on the steps of a church?

I'm not upset with the victim because she got raped...I'm upset with the way she handled it, and the way her parents handled it.

So you've been raped yourself, had a close family member raped, worked with rape victims, or studied the effects of rape extensively then?

Let me tell you something--nothing would surprise you if you have. Women, and indeed men, who are raped lose all sense of control in their world. They lose everything they have. It is probably the most psychologically traumatic process that anyone could ever have to go through. Iw ouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy and while I might not like what some victims do afterwards, I refuse to be upset with them if they don't handle it the best way possible.

Until you've dealt with a rape victim or gone through it yourself, you don't get the right to judge them.

umm... gravity is the curvature of space time by matter. einstein did a pretty damn good job at explaining gravity.

Yeah, not so much. Read A Brief History of Time and revist that thought.

Yeah, not so much. Read A Brief History of Time and revist that thought.
i'm on the intro... i haven't got time to read it with all my classes.

well, they are taught that if a girl voluntarily goes out with a boy to the movies then she clearly is consenting to have sex with him, especially if she allows him to pay for the movie tickets. this all stems from the mindset that all co-ed situations MUST be sexual, that all girls who go on dates MUST be easy, and that a female who enjoys being desired or being courted by a male MUST clearly be looking for sex at all times.

Hahaha. I wish.

Let's see...according to that logic, since I took a girl on two dates to the movies and paid for it both times, I would have had sex. Funny, considering I didn't even kiss her goodnight, because I didn't want to push anything on her.

Hahaha. I wish.

Let's see...according to that logic, since I took a girl on two dates to the movies and paid for it both times, I would have had sex. Funny, considering I didn't even kiss her goodnight, because I didn't want to push anything on her.
You *do* know that Bottle doesn't actually believe that, righr?

Hahaha. I wish.

Let's see...according to that logic, since I took a girl on two dates to the movies and paid for it both times, I would have had sex. Funny, considering I didn't even kiss her goodnight, because I didn't want to push anything on her.
That's totally the way it should be, though. Am I right?

i'm on the intro... i haven't got time to read it with all my classes.

That's okay. Read it when you can--but don't do like me and ruin a vacation trying to follow it :)

Hahaha. I wish.

Let's see...according to that logic, since I took a girl on two dates to the movies and paid for it both times, I would have had sex. Funny, considering I didn't even kiss her goodnight, because I didn't want to push anything on her.

And just because you are a decent guy who acts like he should, that means that the rest of the world does. Not to be a traitor to my gender or anything, but men really are scum.

I would like to know where these rumors that the girl was raped came from. She had consentual sex with a boy of fifteen, being thirteen herself at the time. While many of you may view that as wrong, it is no more the boy's fault than the girls. Two kids made a mistake and didn't use birth control. No one was raped.

You *do* know that Bottle doesn't actually believe that, righr?

I realize that now after looking through the back posts, yeah, it is a very good point about how stupid teens can be.



That's totally the way it should be, though. Am I right?

Yeah, I consider myself a gentleman, althought sometimes all that can be really frustrating when they end up going for a complete asshole instead.

And just because you are a decent guy who acts like he should, that means that the rest of the world does. Not to be a traitor to my gender or anything, but men really are scum.

I'm not going to get started on my rant about how a lot of women let guys treat them like crap, and even actively pursue assholes instead of finding someone who's nice to them.

People, listen, I don't know why its so bad that I'm trying to be a moral person. You people are making it look like I'm a bad person just because I believe people should be better morally.
(From 29 pages back). It's bad because whenever someone disagrees with your view, you tell them this is absolutely and obviously wrong. You're a bad person because you have absolutely no respect for other people's opinions and start to yell at them IN THIS FONT SIZE because you think the big black letters will make them see that your way is obviously correct. Learn some proper rhetorical skills and then come back and try to argue you're point. Oh, and to argue your point about a soul I will point out that:

a)A fetus cannot think, it has no beliefs.
b)A fetus cannot think, it has no concience nor could listen to one should it not be contained within the baby's own mind.
c)Your last argument is the same as the soul argument, how do we know there is a spirit? How do we know spirituality is right or has a point?

What we need is better education on this stuff, and I don't mean the kind that tells us that mutual masturbation will cause pregnancy.

That's okay. Read it when you can--but don't do like me and ruin a vacation trying to follow it :)
how is learning about physics going to ruin a vacation?

There's no way I'm reading all these comments, but I'll say a few things about the topics that I feel the most strongly about.

First off, ok, I don't know if SOUL ever got defined, but according to a reliable source, a soul is the entire being when a spirit and body unite.
That would mean that we still don't know when an unborn baby has a soul, because we don't know when they have a spirit. Either way, why don't people understand that it's not about whether you're killing a baby or not? (I mean....that's a big deal, of course, but there is no way to find out who's right!) It's about letting a potential life live that life or not. I was adopted, and I know that lots of kids never get adopted, however most of these became orfaned after they were babies. But what if my mother decided to abort me? I wouldn't be here.....and I don't think that was her choice. I think that's MY choice. So I think abortion is wrong, unless it is because of rape, or if there is a great chance that the mother will die in childbirth. As far as I'm concerned, if you're willingly having sex with someone, with or without protection, you are making that risk of getting pregnant, and I think it is not your choice to have an abortion. That baby, whether alive yet or not, WILL BE ALIVE......and that potential life has a right to live.

As far as everything being better in the old days.....look kid, these things have always happened, society has always had it's problems, and there have almost always been people who have decided to live their lives in a good way too. It just depends on the individual. There is good and bad, always have been. And what you are....has nothing to do with your political party or religion.

well obviously she wanted to hide the baby and she couldnt get an abortion at that age without a concent of an adult...either way its murder all tho one is legal...todays world is really f'd up...and it always has been...we realy cant do anything about it...people make their own decisions and no one can do that for them...and as u see people dont care about anything no more...its a big contraversy
(ps i kno their is probably alot of spelling errors but im tired, so just bare with me)

So you've been raped yourself, had a close family member raped, worked with rape victims, or studied the effects of rape extensively then?

Let me tell you something--nothing would surprise you if you have. Women, and indeed men, who are raped lose all sense of control in their world. They lose everything they have. It is probably the most psychologically traumatic process that anyone could ever have to go through. Iw ouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy and while I might not like what some victims do afterwards, I refuse to be upset with them if they don't handle it the best way possible.

Until you've dealt with a rape victim or gone through it yourself, you don't get the right to judge them.

Ass. I didn't judge anyone. I did judge her actions, and they were wrong.

Besides, as pointed out earlier, it wasn't rape. I kno plently of 13 year old girls who have sex, and in almost every case it wasn't "rape".

well obviously she wanted to hide the baby and she couldnt get an abortion at that age without a concent of an adult...either way its murder all tho one is legal...todays world is really f'd up...and it always has been...we realy cant do anything about it...people make their own decisions and no one can do that for them...and as u see people dont care about anything no more...its a big contraversy
(ps i kno their is probably alot of spelling errors but im tired, so just bare with me)
People care about things like this no less than they used to. We just hear about them more now because it has become a less quiet world. In the past, we would never have known of this girl throwing her child out the window. Even if the entire town know, knowledge of it would likely never leave the town.

Holy Paradise, hey, chill a bit. i agree with most of the stuff your saying, but don't just dissmiss every thing anyone else says that you don't agree with. If you give their views no respect, do you think they are going to give your views any respect. I do think they're wrong, but give them a bit of respect. And too all you liberals, please, please understand that we have different views to you and that you should respect them.

i my self am a Christian and i think society has become immoral. Thats my view, based on my religion and the bible. I also think that abortion is wrong because although you aren't killing a person who is alive and breathing, you are killing a potential person. Oh.. and scientific reasearch now says that fetuses are consctious after somthing like 6 months.

bravo....I agree entirely....except that society hasn't BECOME immoral. It always has been.

Boo hoo people. Think about human trends. 150 years ago it was SCANDALOUS for a woman to even expose her ankle. She would be deemed a whore, harlett, or whatnot just because she wasn't covered with a tarp-for-a-dress clothing. Clergy members were prohibited to marry or have sex with a female, so they would often have sex with males. In ancient Rome, it wasn't uncommon for a man to rape little children, as long as the raper was on top; to show dominance over the rape-ee. Abortions have been around since humans. Ever hear of a "Roman Abortion" which was done during the Roman Empire's rule. They would put a woman on a horse, usually forcibly and spook the horse making it run around. Needless to say, after an afternoon's ride, that baby was rejected by the body, and the abortion was had.

All right, I have an idea. Instead of everybody sitting around doing this, :headbang: we try forming some kind of a coherent thought. I go to work for a day, and when I come back everyone is arguing over the validity of rape. And don't take this personally Spookopolis, this isn't aimed at you (just a coincidence that your post is the one right before this), but if we can all agree (at least give me a theoretical agreement) that rape is bad (or at least not good), could we maybe stop raping history? As a general rule, three out of every four of the amazing facts you know about history, are wrong. I saw a comment that went something like "the (alleged) crucifixion." Come on now. Think logically through what you might know or have heard. Roman empire tries to stamp out Christians as a heretical sect (meaning they didn't worship Roman gods, especially ceaser). If, a little over a century after the fact, they had a trump card like, "we don't even have records of that Roman Governor ordering that execution" they would have used it? And that someone, somewhere in the vast multitudes of officials and learned men in the empire over the next few centuries, would have written that down? When you stop and think about it, it makes you wonder why the Jewish leaders didn't try it just for the sake of it. Unless they thought there was no way to make the argument fly. And somewhere, I heard something about a cyclical view being valid. Think through the full implications of that. Among other things, it means that your life makes no difference, irregardless of what you do. Here's a fun one (I don't remember the context it was used in, but I'm guessing it was one of the anti-religion posts, with the exception of 'eastern' religions, it's very rare to find religious supporters of a cyclical view), it means a time is fast approaching when your views on anything are completely eclipsed by your opponent's. And the one that people tend to have the biggest problem with, there is no free will. There isn't even the ability to learn. Everything you will ever think or do is set in stone because somewhere, infinitely back in the cycles, that is the role that was decided for the recurring character played by you. And before anyone says that's not true, think about it. The moment there is any deviation from the past, it ceases to be a cycle, reality has just advanced (for better or for worse) and every loop in the cycle from there would be off-balance. And if we are no longer moving fluidly along the same ups and downs, we've made progression along some kind of path, and are suddenly dropped into a linear path once again. This post turned out longer than I had planned (the whole cyclic versus linear is big for historians, personally, I've never even heard a truly cyclic historian).

That is because time is linear. Or at least the marking of time is linear. Past, present and future. All in a neat little row. Cycles appear in the flow. Or seem to. But, they can only be seen in relation to the line.

All right, I have an idea. Instead of everybody sitting around doing this, :headbang: we try forming some kind of a coherent thought. I go to work for a day, and when I come back everyone is arguing over the validity of rape. And don't take this personally Spookopolis, this isn't aimed at you (just a coincidence that your post is the one right before this), but if we can all agree (at least give me a theoretical agreement) that rape is bad (or at least not good), could we maybe stop raping history? As a general rule, three out of every four of the amazing facts you know about history, are wrong. I saw a comment that went something like "the (alleged) crucifixion." Come on now. Think logically through what you might know or have heard. Roman empire tries to stamp out Christians as a heretical sect (meaning they didn't worship Roman gods, especially ceaser). If, a little over a century after the fact, they had a trump card like, "we don't even have records of that Roman Governor ordering that execution" they would have used it? And that someone, somewhere in the vast multitudes of officials and learned men in the empire over the next few centuries, would have written that down? When you stop and think about it, it makes you wonder why the Jewish leaders didn't try it just for the sake of it. Unless they thought there was no way to make the argument fly. And somewhere, I heard something about a cyclical view being valid. Think through the full implications of that. Among other things, it means that your life makes no difference, irregardless of what you do. Here's a fun one (I don't remember the context it was used in, but I'm guessing it was one of the anti-religion posts, with the exception of 'eastern' religions, it's very rare to find religious supporters of a cyclical view), it means a time is fast approaching when your views on anything are completely eclipsed by your opponent's. And the one that people tend to have the biggest problem with, there is no free will. There isn't even the ability to learn. Everything you will ever think or do is set in stone because somewhere, infinitely back in the cycles, that is the role that was decided for the recurring character played by you. And before anyone says that's not true, think about it. The moment there is any deviation from the past, it ceases to be a cycle, reality has just advanced (for better or for worse) and every loop in the cycle from there would be off-balance. And if we are no longer moving fluidly along the same ups and downs, we've made progression along some kind of path, and are suddenly dropped into a linear path once again. This post turned out longer than I had planned (the whole cyclic versus linear is big for historians, personally, I've never even heard a truly cyclic historian).

And... THIS was your coherent thought?

And... THIS was your coherent thought?

I've had worse.

AP News Flash: In a recent survey, 1,142,000,000 Keruvalians do not approve of this thread.

Nah Theologian Theory, he might go to this particular chruch, though:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org
[QUOTE]Prompt Criticality, I checked that church of your's.
I'm not a believer myself and thank goodness I live in Finland where there are no such religious organizations.
After I saw the site, I'm pleased we have all the nazis and satan-worshippers back here instead of that kind of lunatics.
God praise America. [QUOTE]

Outta Curiosity, have you considered the fact that most Christians, including myself, find people such as those exemplified in the website posted above, sickening? To put it into perspective, that would be like me holding all Satanists to the witchy goat and baby sacrificing type. Yes, they are out there, but they really, really don't mirror the majority. Heck, most of the rules enforced by such people are based on Bible verses completely taken out of context when compared to the entire theme of the Bible. So, now that I am done setting that straight, I shall forsake this topic once again until the time is ripe for another saviour who will bring intelligence enough that no one shall reply once again to the stupid, single minded masses. :p

[QUOTE]Prompt Criticality, I checked that church of your's.
I'm not a believer myself and thank goodness I live in Finland where there are no such religious organizations.
After I saw the site, I'm pleased we have all the nazis and satan-worshippers back here instead of that kind of lunatics.
God praise America. [QUOTE]

Outta Curiosity, have you considered the fact that most Christians, including myself, find people such as those exemplified in the website posted above, sickening? To put it into perspective, that would be like me holding all Satanists to the witchy goat and baby sacrificing type. Yes, they are out there, but they really, really don't mirror the majority. Heck, most of the rules enforced by such people are based on Bible verses completely taken out of context when compared to the entire theme of the Bible. So, now that I am done setting that straight, I shall forsake this topic once again until the time is ripe for another saviour who will bring intelligence enough that no one shall reply once again to the stupid, single minded masses. :p


If you'll read Prompt Critically's post again, you might see that s/he wasn't saying that all christians are that way, just that s/he is thankful that psycho-Christian groups like the one in that link aren't there.

I know ive picked up on this thread late but reffering back to the original post and the story s/he wrote about the baby being thrown out of the balcony and how they are so disillusioned with society at 13.
In my view the problem lies with immigration. Since Immigration started rising dramatically society is dramatically going down hill.
When you have nion uncontrolled immigration from 3rd world countries it brings all its problems with it namely drugs, aids, gangs and the whole mentality of not giving a sh!t. and because children are so brainwashed these days in to loving everyone they follow the whole culture. Mr Enoch Powell had the right idea - control immigration and dont let them congregate to form enclosed versions of there own countries (eg. americas bronx and englands southall), but as usual Enoch Powell got called racist. Now there is a huge problem espicially in England (where im from) of people coming here just to rip the place off. Englands population is 60million of which 4 million are muslims (90 percent of which are immigrants) alone. This isn't good for society and has bred and is still breeding massive racial hatred here. But back to my original point liberal views are to blame for all of this, if immigration had been controlled in the first place the whole youth culture of today wouldn't nearly be as frightning, and the baby wouldn't of got thrown off the balcony.

You people don't get it! Maybe the baby isn't an infant physically yet inside the mother's womb, but the baby has a soul! Let me say it again: The...Baby...Has...A...Soul!

You see, the thing is, it doesn't... Until you develop a fully functional brain, you have no feelings, no thoughts, no desires, nothing. Unless im mistaken, thats basically what constitutes a "soul" ;P

Oh, and im a atheist, so don't bother trying to persuade me with any religious crap ;D

I hate babys!!!! :mad: I don't care what happened to it.
I just wish I could do this to them...
8-) :gundge: :mp5: :sniper:
8-) :gundge: :mp5: :sniper:
8-) :gundge: :mp5: :sniper:

8-) = babys.

And Holy Paradise, you just needs to calm down

Say it with me, HP. Chill Pill. CHILL PILL!

Here's my two cents: You don't like abortions? Then don't have one. Just don't stop the people who have no problem with it from getting one.

There.

You know, *if* the story is true, then I have to say its shocking that many of the people on this forum are taking it so lightly. If you don't think that killing a baby is wrong then you probably need to get an examination. Dissing religion or atheism is irrelevant I think, and arguing whether a foetus is a human being is a pointless circular argument.

Oh yeah, and premarital sex is decadent - no contraceptive is completely safe, thats empirically proven, if you want to avoid those problems then don't have sex, simple as that.

People die every day, and underage sex is going to happen.

Sure as the sun will rise.

You know, *if* the story is true, then I have to say its shocking that many of the people on this forum are taking it so lightly. If you don't think that killing a baby is wrong then you probably need to get an examination.
Nobody yet has said this isn't wrong that I know of.

Don't know, people seem to be taking this quite lightly, just a general feeling I'm getting. I suppose the validity of the source is questionable though.

You know, *if* the story is true, then I have to say its shocking that many of the people on this forum are taking it so lightly. If you don't think that killing a baby is wrong then you probably need to get an examination. Dissing religion or atheism is irrelevant I think, and arguing whether a foetus is a human being is a pointless circular argument.

Oh yeah, and premarital sex is decadent - no contraceptive is completely safe, thats empirically proven, if you want to avoid those problems then don't have sex, simple as that.
But if you use any two of them in combination you are pushing it so close to absolute that you could have sex for the next 100 years and not produce a baby :)

(working off what I found condom 98% roughly and BCpill 97.3 which brings the total to 99.946) and thoes are not the theoredicals thoes are the tested reliablility ... about 2% on the condom and a wee bit more on the pill (though I can see why, I have trouble remembering anything lol)

You know, *if* the story is true, then I have to say its shocking that many of the people on this forum are taking it so lightly.I'm not. I think it's a very negative consequence of inadequate abortion facilities and the low visibility of proven and safe methods of preventing pregnancy.

If you don't think that killing a baby is wrong then you probably need to get an examination.I certainly think that it is in very bad taste.

Dissing religion or atheism is irrelevant I think, and arguing whether a foetus is a human being is a pointless circular argument.Actually, it is very relevant. More abortion clinics would prevent this sort of lunacy. The thing is, the Christians have their priorities all mixed-up, and this sort of thing happens.

Oh yeah, and premarital sex is decadent - no contraceptive is completely safe, thats empirically proven, if you want to avoid those problems then don't have sex, simple as that.Personally, I just stick to my own side of the species. My advice to straight people is to spend more time doing oral because it's more pleasurable, it's more intimate, and it doesn't result in kids. You hear that ladies? If you can give your man good oral, he'll lose all interest in anything else, I promise you this. The same goes for vice versa, I've heard. By the way: get a S.O., losers! Newsflash: anyone can get laid, so you're not proving anything except that you can't keep a woman!

Later

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

Abortion is only "killing an infant" if you look at it that way. Many see life starting at birth, not conception. Ugh, I wish closed minds came with closed mouths. :upyours:

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

13 year old male religious conservative nutjob. :rolleyes:

You know, *if* the story is true, then I have to say its shocking that many of the people on this forum are taking it so lightly.

And i find it shocking that a lot more people concern themselves with a slanted story that is most likely not true than with the very real problems the Uyghur in Xinjiang. Political motivated torture and false trials with capital punishment are daily occurences, people just vanish, with the help of police officers and party officials, are forbidden to communicate in their mother tongue and are suppressed in the celebration of their faith.
This is just an example for a lot of shocking occurences around the world, why should a singular case be more horrible than systematic oppression of whole cultures? Why is the death of a baby worse than the death of a e.g. family father? At least he interacted with his environment, influenced other people, raised a kid or two himself, was a productive meber of society and contributed to the wellfare of his kin.

Prompt Criticality, I checked that church of your's.
I'm not a believer myself and thank goodness I live in Finland where there are no such religious organizations.
After I saw the site, I'm pleased we have all the nazis and satan-worshippers back here instead of that kind of lunatics.
God praise America.


If you'll read Prompt Critically's post again, you might see that s/he wasn't saying that all christians are that way, just that s/he is thankful that psycho-Christian groups like the one in that link aren't there.
Alright, I have no intention of going back and finding somewhere in these 40 pages where this link popped up, so I'm just quoting yours, but is this place for real? I mean, from a religious point of view, it's blasphemous upside down and sideways, and from a secular view it's just deranged. I'd never actually heard of the place before (or if I did, I didn't remember it), anybody help me out on this?

And i find it shocking that a lot more people concern themselves with a slanted story that is most likely not true than with the very real problems the Uyghur in Xinjiang. Political motivated torture and false trials with capital punishment are daily occurences, people just vanish, with the help of police officers and party officials, are forbidden to communicate in their mother tongue and are suppressed in the celebration of their faith.
This is just an example for a lot of shocking occurences around the world, why should a singular case be more horrible than systematic oppression of whole cultures? Why is the death of a baby worse than the death of a e.g. family father? At least he interacted with his environment, influenced other people, raised a kid or two himself, was a productive meber of society and contributed to the wellfare of his kin.
Mostly I think it is because nobody really argues if it is wrong, but nobody really knows what to about it.

Pracus, I would tend to believe that it is more of a joke site then anything else. Especially considering the extremely sarcastic tone of quite a lot of the articles. Unfortunately, there are real sites that really get on my nerves... So that site touched a chord with me.

Mostly I think it is because nobody really argues if it is wrong, but nobody really knows what to about it.

Pracus, I would tend to believe that it is more of a joke site then anything else. Especially considering the extremely sarcastic tone of quite a lot of the articles. Unfortunately, there are real sites that really get on my nerves... So that site touched a chord with me.

Are y'all actually reading my posts or have I lost all command of the English language? I wasn't even talking about the bloody site! I was referring to a response to someone else's post and saying that "Hey! You misunderstood them!" Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that people aren't understanding me. It seems that you all just want to hear us heathens say what you expect us to say and then won't listen to the otherwise.

whoa! dude you are 13 and you are realising this! right on dude! I admire you, it took me a while to grow up and figure out society is getting worse and worse. I dunno if you are christian are not, but you are pretty cool to me.

Yeah and I'm twelve and I agree with most points this person has made. I figured this stuff out too! Only I just foung this thread so...

I do not get you right-wing nutjobs? You go around starting wars that gets tens and hundreds of thousands of people killed, destroys families and whole functioning societies, yet you freak out at the liberals who would even dare suggest planned parenthood (the use of condoms, ect.)

Do not also play the religious card. I am also a devout Christian while at the same time being an extreme liberal. If you care about God's creations, lets start taking care of the earth or respect other peoples' rights. Jesus preached about taking care of the poor and the desitute, yet you (the religious conservatives) attack the welfare system and the people on it, many of whom are stuck in dead-end jobs and can not afford to live to the standards of the middle-class. How about you start following God's words, and love your neighbor as you would love yourself.
:cool:

dude...perfectly said
I am not religious at all, but you seem to have the right idea and use religion for a good thing...those conservative christians are so hypocritical...

I don't want to have sex until I get married! I want to be a good person!

I have news for you: good people have sex, out of wedlock, all the time. My girlfriend and I have been living together for seven years, and have been having sex. In fact, we just had sex last night. Does this mean I'm a bad person? I vote, I pay my taxes, I help my girlfriend's son with his homework. I study hard at school and call or email my family to talk and keep my mom from worrying about me.

Is my girlfriend a bad person? She takes care of her children, goes to work, visits her 87 year old grandmother to talk, take her shopping, etc. We don't do drugs, drink rarely, and don't have criminal records.

"Bad" people get married all the time. Does having sex while their married make them "good." Probably not. If you want to be good, then be good. Help others. Be concerned for their welfare. Be respectful of your parents, even when they're wrong (and they will be, trust me.) If you see someone in trouble, reach out to them...and I don't mean by handing them a Bible and tellng them that all the answers are there. I mean by being a fellow human being and doing what you can for them.

You're going to find that there are many things in life that are going to outrage you. That's normal. It means that you're human. However, there are worse things in life, and less controversial, than abortion. If you fight for what you feel is right, I commend you for it. Just don't forget that it is okay to enjoy the life you've been given.

I know ive picked up on this thread late but reffering back to the original post and the story s/he wrote about the baby being thrown out of the balcony and how they are so disillusioned with society at 13.
In my view the problem lies with immigration. Since Immigration started rising dramatically society is dramatically going down hill.
When you have nion uncontrolled immigration from 3rd world countries it brings all its problems with it namely drugs, aids, gangs and the whole mentality of not giving a sh!t. and because children are so brainwashed these days in to loving everyone they follow the whole culture. Mr Enoch Powell had the right idea - control immigration and dont let them congregate to form enclosed versions of there own countries (eg. americas bronx and englands southall), but as usual Enoch Powell got called racist. Now there is a huge problem espicially in England (where im from) of people coming here just to rip the place off. Englands population is 60million of which 4 million are muslims (90 percent of which are immigrants) alone. This isn't good for society and has bred and is still breeding massive racial hatred here. But back to my original point liberal views are to blame for all of this, if immigration had been controlled in the first place the whole youth culture of today wouldn't nearly be as frightning, and the baby wouldn't of got thrown off the balcony.

But don't you realize immigration has a purpose? What about the people who were born in awful countries and can never have a decent life there? I admit I am slightly bothered by the high crime area of my town where all the hispanics live, but we have no right to not allow them to be here.

This whole story is an urban legend, not news. It comes up in various places at various times, is cited by, yes, conservative religious nutjobs as an example of awful our society has become, but has never actually been substantiated. Like the totally imaginary 'welfare queens' that Reagan used to seethe about.
You guys just keep making this stuff up. You lie and you lie, and try to force oppressive policies based on those lies down our throats, and dare to call us 'immoral.'
You're right. I'm sickened.

Sure, the story is urban legend, but there are plenty of true cases that are just as apalling. This one (http://www.ishipress.com/prom-mom.htm) for example. (I apologize to everyone for the cheesy, inappropriate music in the background...turn your speakers down.)

However, I will contend that these incidents are not directly caused by the fact that we allow abortions in this country. In fact, to make such an assertion is ridiculous.

Furthermore, I think that the problem of teens killing or abandoning their newborns is done a disservice by swerving the argument to abortion rather than trying to determine the real reasons why it happens.

Here's an online article I dug up which makes some very good points about the issue: Easy to Judge, Hard to Understand (http://homepage.mac.com/kia/magick/melissa.htm)

Adoption? Do you know how many children remain in orphanages without being adopted at all?
Try condoms instead - they help preventing STDs as well

Try not having sex at all until you're married, that'll solve everyone's problems.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!
It's not that we don't care about life. It's that when abortion is illegal things like this happen rather frequently. Fetuses (up to a certain age) don't feel pain, think, etc. When you have the choice between killing what is essentially an inanimate mass of cells with human DNA and a living, breathing, thinking person we choose to mass of cells. You're closer to killing a human being by eating a hamburger.

P.S.-- The soul is there once the zygote is formed.

Really? That seems pretty inefficient. See, you may not be aware of the fact that women often flush fertilized eggs during their menstrual cycle. Not every fertilized egg will cause a woman to begin pregnancy. Therefore, any woman who has sex and has more than one menstrual cycle while she's sexually active could very well be accused of being a serial killer. (My apologies to George Carlin to turning a good bit of stand-up into this dry post.)

Do animals have souls? My dogs have emotions like I do. They play, they love, they get sad, they even cry, though they don't have tear ducts. They may not be as intelligent as I am, but they do have feelings, and they do feel pain.

Are souls only available to those with intelligence? In that case, do apes have souls? They've managed to teach gorillas sign language. Those gorillas have had offspring and have taught sign language to their infants. That seems to show intelligence to me. So if intelligence is a criteria, then gorillas must have souls. So perhaps Christians should start baptizing gorillas, just to make sure they don't go to hell...

It's not that we don't care about life. It's that when abortion is illegal things like this happen rather frequently. Fetuses (up to a certain age) don't feel pain, think, etc. When you have the choice between killing what is essentially an inanimate mass of cells with human DNA and a living, breathing, thinking person we choose to mass of cells. You're closer to killing a human being by eating a hamburger.

Its not about the fetus itself, it's what it will become and what it is undeniably, even at conception. It is your child, and if you can't get the work done to raise it right, or actually raise it at all, then you didn't deserve to have sex in the first place. The whole damn purpose of sex is to create the damn kid! You can never get all the benefits of something and none of the drawbacks. Its immorally wrong!!You're just being a selfish bastard!!

I'm not as against condoms and birth control pills, because they prevent you from having to make the choice in the first place. But, they're only encouraging premarital sex, which spawned this whole arguement in the first place.

Its not about the fetus itself, it's what it will become and what it is undeniably, even at conception. It is your child, and if you can't get the work done to raise it right, or actually raise it at all, then you didn't deserve to have sex in the first place. The whole damn purpose of sex is to create the damn kid! You can never get all the benefits of something and none of the drawbacks. Its immorally wrong!!You're just being a selfish bastard!!
Well, the "It will become a child" argument doesn't work and has been refuted many times. It will become of age to drink, does that mean you should give it alcohol? It will become dead, should you bury it?

Originally Posted by Clark the Chosen One
I know ive picked up on this thread late but reffering back to the original post and the story s/he wrote about the baby being thrown out of the balcony and how they are so disillusioned with society at 13.
In my view the problem lies with immigration. Since Immigration started rising dramatically society is dramatically going down hill.
When you have nion uncontrolled immigration from 3rd world countries it brings all its problems with it namely drugs, aids, gangs and the whole mentality of not giving a sh!t. and because children are so brainwashed these days in to loving everyone they follow the whole culture. Mr Enoch Powell had the right idea - control immigration and dont let them congregate to form enclosed versions of there own countries (eg. americas bronx and englands southall), but as usual Enoch Powell got called racist. Now there is a huge problem espicially in England (where im from) of people coming here just to rip the place off. Englands population is 60million of which 4 million are muslims (90 percent of which are immigrants) alone. This isn't good for society and has bred and is still breeding massive racial hatred here. But back to my original point liberal views are to blame for all of this, if immigration had been controlled in the first place the whole youth culture of today wouldn't nearly be as frightning, and the baby wouldn't of got thrown off the balcony.

This argument is just as flawed as the arguments put forward by WASPs to prevent immigrants of Irish, Italian, Jewish, and Eastern European descent from entering into the United States in the 19th and early 20th centuries. There is high crime and racial tension in black neighborhoods as well. Would you propose we ship them back to Africa to solve the problem? Try again.

Yes, its good that the baby goes to heaven. But do you know what happens to people who kill anything with a soul? Yes, that's right.......

They go to Hell.
ouch so a soldier gets a shiity job then goes to hell
why does anyone who's christian join the army

Well, the "It will become a child" argument doesn't work and has been refuted many times. It will become of age to drink, does that mean you should give it alcohol? It will become dead, should you bury it?

So basically what you're saying, is that the miracle of life is nothing more than a growing, bloated mass of cells, and it should be treated as such? The only reason people take advantage of the unborn child is because it can't defend itself. How would you like if you had no say in whether you lived or died merely because you were a burden?

So basically what you're saying, is that the miracle of life is nothing more than a growing, bloated mass of cells, and it should be treated as such?
So basically what you're saying is you put words into my mouth?
What I said is the potential to be something is not the same as being that thing.
The only reason people take advantage of the unborn child is because it can't defend itself. How would you like if you had no say in whether you lived or died merely because you were a burden?
If I was an unwanted burden on those close to me, I would happily do it myself.

Its not about the fetus itself, it's what it will become and what it is undeniably, even at conception. It is your child, and if you can't get the work done to raise it right, or actually raise it at all, then you didn't deserve to have sex in the first place. The whole damn purpose of sex is to create the damn kid! You can never get all the benefits of something and none of the drawbacks. Its immorally wrong!!You're just being a selfish bastard!!

I'm not as against condoms and birth control pills, because they prevent you from having to make the choice in the first place. But, they're only encouraging premarital sex, which spawned this whole arguement in the first place.
I was just defending myself from being essentially called a murderer.

There certainly are ways to make it impossible to get pregnant. And because it is possible to make it impossible to get pregnant it is not a question of whether "are you responsible enough to raise a child?" but "are you responsible enough to take the precautions?"

So basically what you're saying, is that the miracle of life is nothing more than a growing, bloated mass of cells, and it should be treated as such? The only reason people take advantage of the unborn child is because it can't defend itself. How would you like if you had no say in whether you lived or died merely because you were a burden?

:headbang: Yes and we should all eat our children if we run out of food or money to feed and clothe them. somthing different for christmas :headbang:

So basically what you're saying, is that the miracle of life is nothing more than a growing, bloated mass of cells, and it should be treated as such? The only reason people take advantage of the unborn child is because it can't defend itself. How would you like if you had no say in whether you lived or died merely because you were a burden?
You can't compare poeple to fetuses with a completely undeveloped brain (if you can even call it that. its more like a "bloated mass of cells")

a mass of stem cells cant make a decision. If we could speak to it it couldn't say anything. BECAUSE IT CANT THINK!

I was just defending myself from being essentially called a murderer.

There certainly are ways to make it impossible to get pregnant. And because it is possible to make it impossible to get pregnant it is not a question of whether "are you responsible enough to raise a child?" but "are you responsible enough to take the precautions?"

It's impossible to make it impossible to become pregnant. Even with the use of condoms and birth control pills and such, there is still a miniscule chance that neither will work and you will become pregnant. The odds are extremely small, but they're there. Even so, taking the precautions is better than not, and I would rather that those who are unphazed by my opinions would use them.

It's impossible to make it impossible to become pregnant. Even with the use of condoms and birth control pills and such, there is still a miniscule chance that neither will work and you will become pregnant. The odds are extremely small, but they're there. Even so, taking the precautions is better than not, and I would rather that those who are unphazed by my opinions would use them.
Yes it is, she cant get pregnant unless she's ovulating.

So basically what you're saying is you put words into my mouth?
What I said is the potential to be something is not the same as being that thing.

Its inexcusable what I'm about to say here, but its just the way I think, and please don't argue with this statement because it is the foundation of what I've said here and I cannot be persuaded otherwise. Take it and interperate it, or ignore it and flame it, I don't care. Just understand what I'm trying to say.

Abortion is wrong. You are killing the child. It is not a mass of cells, it is a human being with human rights and even though it is within your power to do so, it is wrong. The same thing went with Hitler. It was within his power to methodically slaughter the Jews, and he did it. It was wrong. Abortion is the same thing on a singular scale, minus all the starvation. Don't get pregnant and don't have the problem, or get pregnant and raise the child. Those are the solutions to this never-ending arguement.

I will say no more on the subject.

Its inexcusable what I'm about to say here, but its just the way I think, and please don't argue with this statement because it is the foundation of what I've said here and I cannot be persuaded otherwise. Take it and interperate it, or ignore it and flame it, I don't care. Just understand what I'm trying to say.
I liked the "please don't argue with it" bit...
;)

Anyway, I already understand your opinion. You'd made it fairly clear. I just don't agree at all with it.

Yep, those tank tops really make me want to go out and have sex with a 13 year old.

You really don't think that this didn't happen back in 'the good 'ol days'?

Exactly. Ireland, for example, was full of convents of 'fallen women', who were regularly abused by the nuns.
Also, your enforced 'morality' (totally subjective) led to the rise of backstreet abortionists. I agree teenage pregnancy is a big issue but religious morality will not solve it.

I understand the belief that killing a baby is worng. It is. Killing a baby is more wrong than killing an adult because at least an adult can fight back.

But what you have to realize is that fetuses can't be associated with babies. Babies can think, make decisions, feel pain. Fetuses can't. Fetuses are growing masses of stem cells.

I understand the belief that killing a baby is worng. It is. Killing a baby is more wrong than killing an adult because at least an adult can fight back.

But what you have to realize is that fetuses can't be associated with babies. Babies can think, make decisions, feel pain. Fetuses can't. Fetuses are growing masses of stem cells.
Leave him be, he's already said he isn't going to listen.

Im not attacking him. I'm ranting for anyone willing to listen.

Im not attacking him. I'm ranting for anyone willing to listen.
Oh, sorry, I thought you were specifically directing it at him.
Kay, I get it now.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

I'm 13 too, and I have the a lot of the same opinions on this stuff. Dang librals! :mp5:

I'm 13 too, and I have the a lot of the same opinions on this stuff. Dang librals! :mp5:

what do you think has spawned your opinions?

What do I do to ignore them behind me?
Do I follow my instincts blindly?
Do I hide my pride from these bad dreams
And give into sad thoughts that are maddening?
Do I sit here and try to stand it?
Or do I try to catch them red-handed?
Do I trust some and get fooled by phoniness
Or do I trust nobody and live in loneliness?
Because I can't hold on when I'm stretched so thin
I make the right moves but I'm lost within
I put on my daily facade but then
I just end up getting hurt again
By myself.

What do I do to ignore them behind me?
Do I follow my instincts blindly?
Do I hide my pride from these bad dreams
And give into sad thoughts that are maddening?
Do I sit here and try to stand it?
Or do I try to catch them red-handed?
Do I trust some and get fooled by phoniness
Or do I trust nobody and live in loneliness?
Because I can't hold on when I'm stretched so thin
I make the right moves but I'm lost within
I put on my daily facade but then
I just end up getting hurt again
By myself.

Linkin Park. Your point being?

what do you think has spawned your opinions?

Well, does this guy's story sound right to you? (refering to the very first post.)

What a crock of shit...

First of all, did you not know that in the medieval era and even during the 1600s - late 1700s women had children at the (now considered young) ages of thirteen? In addition, the time periods prior to the 1900s were very religiously based... so your arguement isn't even an arguement. It's bologna. Morality and conservatism has nothing to do with it either. Look at the fucking story. IT WAS IN THE BRONX for God's sake! That thirteen year old girl was probably uneducated and so was her fucked up boyfriend! The problem is a lack of sex-education!

Secondly, stop overexaggerating news stories like this crap. Yeah, I agree its terrible that a baby got thrown out of a window, and I agree that the pregnancy issue was pretty touchy. But the thing is, how much of this crap do you see everyday? You RARELY see news stories like this.... and the proof of it is that you actually hear of these news stories. If this shit was occurring everyday, they wouldn't broadcast it on the news, just like carcrashes. There is an average of FIVE HUNDRED car crashes per day in the city of Toronto, Canada... but they don't report every single damn one of them.

I hate it when people overexaggerate bullshit news stories like this. It's just like crime... E V E R Y O N E thinks that crime is increasing at a massive rate. It's not increasing. That's bullshit. It's actually DECREASING, ASSHOLES. The only difference is that you're just hearing more about it these days because we have technology like radio, TV, internet, etc. Back in the 1300s humans didn't have our technology, but I don't think that the number of crimes wasn't any less than it is today. Things such as murders, thefts, etc. all happened back then too. Get it through your stupid heads.

Don't overexaggerate shit when you see stuff on the news and don't get over excited or surprised either before you think twice about the bullshit that you might choose to accept and hear. When it comes to this shit and the real world, you gotta be realistic and think realistically. If you don't, you're dead.

Well, does this guy's story sound right to you? (refering to the very first post.)
Certainly not, but I believe he was asking how you formed a conservative opinion.

If anything, this story tells me that conservativism isn't working the way it's supposed to.

Linkin Park. Your point being?

My point being no point, but it in my own opinion it applies.

Well, does this guy's story sound right to you? (refering to the very first post.)

No it sounds like an urban legend and until someone will cite a source it will remain that to me

My point being no point, but it in my own opinion it applies.
I retract the question as it doesn't apply

Jesus H. Christ, it's kids like you that are destroying todays society, perhaps moreso than the girl. Think about yourself. A 13 year old kid ranting on about how immoral SOCIETY has become. YOU'RE 13. You don't even have the right to free speech yet, let alone go on and on about society. You barely even have enough experience with society yet. Christ have mercy.

Jesus H. Christ, it's kids like you that are destroying todays society, perhaps moreso than the girl. Think about yourself. A 13 year old kid ranting on about how immoral SOCIETY has become. YOU'RE 13. You don't even have the right to free speech yet, let alone go on and on about society. You barely even have enough experience with society yet. Christ have mercy.
Well, people quite certainly do have the right to free speech at 13. The constitution applies to all citizens.

Also, your post seemed a bit of a borderline flame. Be careful with that, as flaming is against forum rules.

Also, your post seemed a bit of a borderline flame. Be careful with that, as flaming is against forum rules.

Look at my post (#636). I think that would qualify as flaming.

Well, people quite certainly do have the right to free speech at 13. The constitution applies to all citizens.

Also, your post seemed a bit of a borderline flame. Be careful with that, as flaming is against forum rules.

Actually no, people under the age of eighteen (or twenty-one depending on the right you are looking at) do not have all the consitutional rights. Look at the fact that you HAVE to wear uniforms in certain PUBLIC schools that you are REQUIRED to attend. Those students certainly are having their freedom of speech denied (hell, my school banned newspaper editorials about it back in the day) and courts have upheld this.

Actually no, people under the age of eighteen (or twenty-one depending on the right you are looking at) do not have all the consitutional rights. Look at the fact that you HAVE to wear uniforms in certain PUBLIC schools that you are REQUIRED to attend. Those students certainly are having their freedom of speech denied (hell, my school banned newspaper editorials about it back in the day) and courts have upheld this.
Hmm, you have a point.
Well, technically, everybody's supposed to have them, but they really don't.
Meh, it always ends up like that.
:(

Hmm, you have a point.
Well, technically, everybody's supposed to have them, but they really don't.
Meh, it always ends up like that.
:(

Agreed with you there. The erosion of civil liberties that has occurred in this country since the early 1900s is the greatest threat we face today.

Jesus H. Christ, it's kids like you that are destroying todays society, perhaps moreso than the girl. Think about yourself. A 13 year old kid ranting on about how immoral SOCIETY has become. YOU'RE 13. You don't even have the right to free speech yet, let alone go on and on about society. You barely even have enough experience with society yet. Christ have mercy.

He's destroying society by expressing his good morals? >_<
do you throw babies out windows?!?!

He may be 13 but hes got a good point.

It can't be called killing if it's done before the foetus counts life. After that point, it is killing.
And there are countless Eassays that prove that Abortion is illegal for others to do, but not for the Mother.

She has full rights to not give nutrients and more to another. Only Fascism/communism can force you to do something like that.

So Abortion is legal for the mother. The debate has been for decades whether others can help her.

For the girl to be punished for something that is plainly legal is wrong.

And there are countless Eassays that prove that Abortion is illegal for others to do, but not for the Mother.

She has full rights to not give nutrients and more to another. Only Fascism/communism can force you to do something like that.

So Abortion is legal for the mother. The debate has been for decades whether others can help her.

For the girl to be punished for something that is plainly legal is wrong.
...
And?
Why are you saying this to me? I already know all this. I *am* on your side, you know...

You know, *if* the story is true, then I have to say its shocking that many of the people on this forum are taking it so lightly. If you don't think that killing a baby is wrong then you probably need to get an examination. Dissing religion or atheism is irrelevant I think, and arguing whether a foetus is a human being is a pointless circular argument.

Oh yeah, and premarital sex is decadent - no contraceptive is completely safe, thats empirically proven, if you want to avoid those problems then don't have sex, simple as that.

Thanks for your opinion.

Yes, you are obviously right. Pregnancy is caused by sluttishness.

Curse those evil rape victims, with their deliberate lack of contraception, and their wanton disregard for the 'decadence' of their acts.

Did you know, there are rumours that, one day, people will be able to actually MAKE fire? Crazy, huh?

So basically what you're saying, is that the miracle of life is nothing more than a growing, bloated mass of cells, and it should be treated as such?

Well, in most ways.. that IS true...

I realise you tried to make it sound all 'scary' and 'icky'...

But, the scientific fact is, that pretty much IS what the 'miracle' of life is.

Humans are disposable, plain and simple. Our only purpose is to grow, fight off death until we can reproduce, and die. People just extrapolate and make us super-important and put so much emphasis into our lives when no matter how you look at it, we don't have that much purpose. If one, or one billion people die, the universe won't explode.

Gelehrte I have to say they are very harsh views you have. A human is a human whether there a mass murderer or just a clump of cells. That doesn't give anyone one the right to kill them. Abortions are just rosy covered murders and should be banned. Im not a huge religous person but what the bible says should be followed, if everyone followed the bibles guidance we would have a society free from crime, underage sex, abortion and just about every atrocity in the world. But people thinking they are so clever choose not to follow this and look how it ends up. I recently got beaten up and had my car stolen from me by a gang of f**king bl*cks who shouldn't of been here in the first place. The police basically said there wasn't alot they could do so these w*nkers are out walkin the streets doin this thing again and again. But i deviate, soicety is without God at the moment and abortion is just a by product of people turning there back on him. You want a decent society turn back to God.
If women are silly enough to get pregnant they should live with the consequences, end of. Abortions, unwanted pregnancies and babies born to single mothers would never happen if there wasn't pre marital sex, but this will never happen so as a start the government should ban abortions.
Thats my rant for the week, I also apoligise if this post offends anyone but these are my views and they wont change.

Forgot to mention. The only way i'l condone abortion is in aid of rape victims.

The...Baby...Has...A...Soul!

Are you sure?

Well, people quite certainly do have the right to free speech at 13. The constitution applies to all citizens.

Also, your post seemed a bit of a borderline flame. Be careful with that, as flaming is against forum rules.

citizens vote, pay taxes and die for their country, which of these things do thirteen year olds do? The constitution guarantees rights to citizens but until you're 18 you ain't a citizen and the childrens bill of rights is considerably shorter than the one for citizens

citizens vote, pay taxes and die for their country, which of these things do thirteen year olds do? The constitution guarantees rights to citizens but until you're 18 you ain't a citizen and the childrens bill of rights is considerably shorter than the one for citizens
Yeah, somebody already pointed out my ignorance earlier...
:(

Forgot to mention. The only way i'l condone abortion is in aid of rape victims.

Why? Does the baby no longer have a soul now? You say that's your reason for being against abortion. So, by what you said, you're basically sacrificing someone for the consolation of a victim.

What a crock of shit...

First of all, did you not know that in the medieval era and even during the 1600s - late 1700s women had children at the (now considered young) ages of thirteen? In addition, the time periods prior to the 1900s were very religiously based... so your arguement isn't even an arguement. It's bologna. Morality and conservatism has nothing to do with it either. Look at the fucking story. IT WAS IN THE BRONX for God's sake! That thirteen year old girl was probably uneducated and so was her fucked up boyfriend! The problem is a lack of sex-education!

Secondly, stop overexaggerating news stories like this crap. Yeah, I agree its terrible that a baby got thrown out of a window, and I agree that the pregnancy issue was pretty touchy. But the thing is, how much of this crap do you see everyday? You RARELY see news stories like this.... and the proof of it is that you actually hear of these news stories. If this shit was occurring everyday, they wouldn't broadcast it on the news, just like carcrashes. There is an average of FIVE HUNDRED car crashes per day in the city of Toronto, Canada... but they don't report every single damn one of them.

I hate it when people overexaggerate bullshit news stories like this. It's just like crime... E V E R Y O N E thinks that crime is increasing at a massive rate. It's not increasing. That's bullshit. It's actually DECREASING, ASSHOLES. The only difference is that you're just hearing more about it these days because we have technology like radio, TV, internet, etc. Back in the 1300s humans didn't have our technology, but I don't think that the number of crimes wasn't any less than it is today. Things such as murders, thefts, etc. all happened back then too. Get it through your stupid heads.

Don't overexaggerate shit when you see stuff on the news and don't get over excited or surprised either before you think twice about the bullshit that you might choose to accept and hear. When it comes to this shit and the real world, you gotta be realistic and think realistically. If you don't, you're dead.

Not bad points, although I would have worded it differently, but you left out something important. The news, as it becomes more and more a business, chooses their stories and their slant, purposing to draw in a greater share of the viewers (go up in the ratings). And, like it or not, the top sellers in America remain sex, violence, and scandal (children are a pretty big cash-cow also). Don't bleieve me? Look at the average month's new movies. Usually you will find at least one movie specifically aimed at one of each of those four things.

[QUOTE]Why? Does the baby no longer have a soul now? You say that's your reason for being against abortion. So, by what you said, you're basically sacrificing someone for the consolation of a victim.[/QUOTE

Im refering to the fact the pregnancy was forced upon the rape victim. Im not condoning abortion but it seems the only real way to help a rape victim if they dont want the child.

Why? Does the baby no longer have a soul now? You say that's your reason for being against abortion. So, by what you said, you're basically sacrificing someone for the consolation of a victim.
Would you like to take the place of a kid who is raised by a mother who hates you because society forces her to relive her trauma again and again? Good luck staying a healthy young individual, with a unknown father who is on the run or in jail and a mother who sees the face of her rapist everytime she sees you.

I hate religious fanatics.

]Im not condoning abortion[/B] but it seems the only real way to help a rape victim if they dont want the child.
Hmm, really?
You sure?
Forgot to mention. The only way i'l condone abortion is in aid of rape victims.

You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that!

Whoa whoa whoa, slow down there champ. You started off fine with the whole "people need to take responsibility for their own actions" bit, but what's with the complete 180 at the end of your rant? Giving your child up for abortion doesn't sound like "taking responsibility for your own [immoral] actions." Infact, it sounds suspiciously like a cop out to me, like passing the buck, almost exactly like.....NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

Ahem

I think you best re-evaluate your position on exactly what the term "responsibility" means before you get any deeper into this line of argument.

i totally agree with you, man. this world's going to the shits.

Would you like to take the place of a kid who is raised by a mother who hates you because society forces her to relive her trauma again and again? Good luck staying a healthy young individual, with a unknown father who is on the run or in jail and a mother who sees the face of her rapist everytime she sees you.

Lets take this in a different direction:

Would you like to take the place of a kid who is raised by an orphanage or foster homes, or her own mother who bore the kid when she was like 15. Everytime she looked at him she would shee why she couldn't fulfil her dreams, why she couldn't go to college, etc.

And honestly, no I wouldn't want to. I don't have a problem with abortion, I was questioning the beliefs of people who do. The rational is that the child isn't going to have a happy life, which pretty much goes the same for kids up for adoption.

But once it's bad enough like rape or incest (?) the mother has a right to "murder"

Whoa whoa whoa, slow down there champ. You started off fine with the whole "people need to take responsibility for their own actions" bit, but what's with the complete 180 at the end of your rant? Giving your child up for abortion doesn't sound like "taking responsibility for your own [immoral] actions." Infact, it sounds suspiciously like a cop out to me, like passing the buck, almost exactly like.....NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

Ahem

I think you best re-evaluate your position on exactly what the term "responsibility" means before you get any deeper into this line of argument.
honestly, i don't get where that attitude comes from; the idea that having an abortion is somehow LESS responsible than bringing a fetus to term and then giving it to somebody else just baffles me. if you abort, you prevent a baby from ever coming into existence, and you take the full weight of your situation onto your own shoulders...hell, the female takes ALL the responsibility in that situation, and the guy merely has to choose whether he will support and help her or make her life more difficult. but if you choose to knowingly carry a fetus to term with the full intention of putting it up for adoption then what you are saying is, "i am not mature enough to put my responsibilities ahead of my personal feelings."

Gelehrte I have to say they are very harsh views you have. A human is a human whether there a mass murderer or just a clump of cells. That doesn't give anyone one the right to kill them. Abortions are just rosy covered murders and should be banned. Im not a huge religous person but what the bible says should be followed, if everyone followed the bibles guidance we would have a society free from crime, underage sex, abortion and just about every atrocity in the world. But people thinking they are so clever choose not to follow this and look how it ends up. I recently got beaten up and had my car stolen from me by a gang of f**king bl*cks who shouldn't of been here in the first place. The police basically said there wasn't alot they could do so these w*nkers are out walkin the streets doin this thing again and again. But i deviate, soicety is without God at the moment and abortion is just a by product of people turning there back on him. You want a decent society turn back to God.
If women are silly enough to get pregnant they should live with the consequences, end of. Abortions, unwanted pregnancies andbies born to single mothers would never happen if there wasn't pre marital sex, but this will never happen so as a start the government should ban abortions.
Thats my rant for the week, I also apoligise if this post offends anyone but these are my views and they wont change.
WOW, You should be a comedian, not even being sarcastic, does any one else see the gaping logical flaws here? Let me point them out.

Im not a huge religous person but what the bible says should be followed
any one else fiond this the least bit contradictory?

human is a human whether there a mass murderer or just a clump of cells
spelling errors aside (They're not there, i'm not big on stuff like this normally but serriously guy/gal, I don't even make this error)
Do you therefore not support the death penalty, do you believe that simply because say Adolf hitler shared our basic genetic makeup that he shouldn't be killed if he was found walking the earth right now, or Iosef Stalin?

I recently got beaten up and had my car stolen from me by a gang of f**king bl*cks who shouldn't of been here in the first place
so now you're rascist AND believe that the bible is true? Have you ever even (by chance perhaps) READ said bible? Hm? Noticed all the preachings of goodwill towards man and what not? Or are you now saying that these 'Blacks' aren't human? That they have no right to live? if so, then how do you define human? how can you tell that a clump of cells is human, b/c here, and with your previous remarks, you clearly state that you can't tell humans by their genetic make up or by their criminal past/present.
(BTW, I'm a christian and read the bible often)

If women are silly enough to get pregnant they should live with the consequences, end of. Abortions, unwanted pregnancies andbies born to single mothers would never happen if there wasn't pre marital sex, but this will never happen so as a start the government should ban abortions.
Thats my rant for the week, I also apoligise if this post offends anyone but these are my views and they wont change

might i suggest a good english language tutor for you? I'm not that good at it myself but problems this apparent shouldn't be ignored if you plan on continuing to write in this tongue. Your logic could use some work too but I hope I've at least partially corrected that.

and BTW, the story about the girl is an urban myth, been around since the stoneage (figuratively speaking) I should know, thats one of the things I do for a living

honestly, i don't get where that attitude comes from; the idea that having an abortion is somehow LESS responsible than bringing a fetus to term and then giving it to somebody else just baffles me. if you abort, you prevent a baby from ever coming into existence, and you take the full weight of your situation onto your own shoulders...hell, the female takes ALL the responsibility in that situation, and the guy merely has to choose whether he will support and help her or make her life more difficult. but if you choose to knowingly carry a fetus to term with the full intention of putting it up for adoption then what you are saying is, "i am not mature enough to put my responsibilities ahead of my personal feelings."

Bottle, bottle, dear bottle. Haven't you learned by now that when working with highly religious, near fanatics the only things that are compassionate, logical, responsible, or reasonable are the things that they themselves would choose to do? No other path coudl have anything worthwhile to it. . .

Similar (ie with the Abortion part) situations go on all the time.

Conservatives are to blame because they would be set against any "child" being able to consent to sex in the first place, and so wouldn't help, and just ignore it.

Liberals are to blame because they would be set against any "child" being able to consent to sex in the first place, so would try to track down the father (who may have a good home, income and ability to support the child) and throw him in jail.

Yea.. both ways... the child is screwed, and both Conservs and Libs are to blame.

Bottle, bottle, dear bottle. Haven't you learned by now that when working with highly religious, near fanatics the only things that are compassionate, logical, responsible, or reasonable are the things that they themselves would choose to do? No other path coudl have anything worthwhile to it. . .
grrr, i know, i know. it just sickens me when people try to claim that chosing abortion isn't "taking responsibility." whether or not the woman is making a choice you LIKE does not determined whether or not she is taking responsibility. a pregnant woman is taking responsibility by making any choice at all...the only way she can "not take responsibility" is if she sticks her fingers in her ears and yells "LA LA LA, I'M NOT PREGNANT" until the baby falls out.

so let's make that distinction very clear: personally, i believe that carrying a pregnancy to term with the intent of giving the baby up for adoption is horribly irresponsible and immoral. however, a woman who makes that choice is still "taking responsibility" for her situation, even if i don't think she's making the most responsible choice. is everybody clear on the distinction?

I agree that society is disillusioned. Why are we all wearing clothes at all?? :rolleyes:

I wear clothes because the warmest it gets is around 25 degrees celsius for a few days of summer and it stays around or near -25 degrees celsius for the majority of winter.

I wear clothes because the warmest it gets is around 25 degrees celsius for a few days of summer and it stays around or near -25 degrees celsius for the majority of winter.
i wear clothes because i work in a lab with hazardous chemicals, and getting acid on your coat is a lot less painful than getting it on the places the coat covers...

*snip*

<shrugs>

OK, you are a 13-year-old male religious conservative nutjob. Happy?

Also, what the fuck is up with the anti-abortion crowd hating women so much? It's not like, with most cases of pregnancy, there is only the woman's hand involved. In fact, VERY rarely it happens that a woman chooses to get pregnant maliciously to spite a man while he is either drunk or has came outside of her vagina.

But I digress, the vast majority of cases point to pregnancy being either consensual or nonconsensual on the part of the female, so why do these people treat the woman as evil for getting pregnant?

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

Hey look. A dinosaur! :eek:

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!


I on the other hand, can go down to the corner pharmacy, hold my head high and ask for a condom.

Problem is today we hear these cases in the news everyday: before mass media took over these incidents occured also but they were lost in the obscurity of time.

Now let's see if we can point the finger at some-one:
The girl: she didn't know any better: she probably thought her parents would've been mad and wanted avoid it(she is after all only 13), didn't you try to dodge out of trouble at that stage?
The Parents: irresponsible to say at the least: the girl doesn't feel comfortable enough with them to tell her mistake and get an abortion (otherwise a young life would've been ruined for the rest of her life, you play mother/father instead of being one), yet I can't help to think that parents probably didn't know better because of bad education themselves.
Society: easy as hell, blame TV and educational system. They can't/ won't defend themselves because its a huge complex of entertainment and it isn't obvious who's responsible anyway. Some children might be implored to nail themselves through the hands and feet because of Jezus. Ban church then too.

In these modern days and changed society these things will always happen for they happened before.

SOMEONE SHOOT THIS ZOMBIE THREAD IN BETWEEN THE EYES!! :sniper: :sniper:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!
I get it dude, it's no longer "is this the right thing to do?" but more like "will i get punished for this?"..

As i've told my mom, she thinks people are inheritingly good in nature and through effort and teaching can become solid members of society and create a utopian, you're bound to get a few bad seeds but with a little hard work good will prevail.

I on the other hand am not so easily convinced, i believe the average person is not too far from an animal, and like animals they only understand fear and pain. They know pain, they fear pain, give them pain and make them fear you. IE: An impirlieasm that controls the wild dogs, surely a few miscreants will terrorize, but nothing a rock-hard goverment can't handle..

People have lost thier morality, and the debate between me and mom sounds like one you see between Jesus and Satan if you read the Bible carefuly.

If mankind should be given the chance to atone and that they can learn better and be one with thier sorroundings and The Great Spirit.

Or that to let them strive is a stupid endevure and risks only destroying the rest of an otherwise good planet and they should be opressed to the point of absolute control and or whiped off the face of the Earth.

Who ever necromanced this thread needs to be flogged. Let it die! Just let it die. Why won't you let it die...

Didn't we kill this thread like a month ago? Why did it come back?
Someone call buffy, please.

You are a thirteen year old zealot, but I like it. Just do not go to extreme. Know your belief. Know why you believe. Know why others do not. Know how to be a friend. Do not seek to convert, seek to love.

Sorry. I do have respect. I have respect for you for carrying the child. But I hate it how morals have been lost in society. I respect people's opinions. But I'm just tired of it! It makes me cry! Seriously! I think of how Jesus right now is looking down on Earth and thinking, "This is what I died for? I died...only to be forgotten for the reason why? I still know I did the right thing....but...everyday now I receive back into heaven the children I had great plans for. I gave these children...great gifts...the children are gifts within themselves, and its just getting thrown back at me." That's why I am angry, because of what society has became.

You see, I'm not going to write a play. I'm going to shamelessly make fun of you.

You say you sympathize with other people's opinions, then proceed to basically call theirs wrong by invoking the opinion of Jesus.

That's precious.

Oh, and by the way, Mr. God Freak, YOU seem to have forgotten the most important rule of the Bible: Turn the other cheek. Give these people forgiveness. If they steal your rug, give them another. If they take your camel, give them the saddle. If they slap your face, turn towards them the other cheek. So why get angry? You're disobeying Jesus.

And also explain why apes and men share 99.9% of their genes.
And prove souls exist.
In the meantime, I'm gonna go advertise abortions, gay marriage, and ... umm ... oh. Right! Polytheism. :p

Listen. As soon as you shit a bowling ball, you have the right to talk. Until then, you have no fucking right to tell a women to go through a living hell.


To paraphrase Carlin, "It has to be born to be an infant."


Yes?


Yeah! Dooming a girl and her child to a tormented existance is caring about life!


Yeah! Let's take away all of our rights, all be crushed under the heel of oppression! Ave Caesar!


Listen up bitch, you're the one who complains about profanity and sex, yet is perfectly fine with gratituous violence. What the fuck is with your priorities?!


Note: Excessive profanity used because he said he didn't like it.

HAIL! CthulhuFhtagn i might not be liberal (im a commie) but yeah you tell that conservative bitch

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!
Who died and made you god?

o by the way religion is evil... fu*k redemption

Listen. As soon as you shit a bowling ball, you have the right to talk. Until then, you have no fucking right to tell a women to go through a living hell.


To paraphrase Carlin, "It has to be born to be an infant."


Yes?


Yeah! Dooming a girl and her child to a tormented existance is caring about life!


Yeah! Let's take away all of our rights, all be crushed under the heel of oppression! Ave Caesar!


Listen up bitch, you're the one who complains about profanity and sex, yet is perfectly fine with gratituous violence. What the fuck is with your priorities?!


Note: Excessive profanity used because he said he didn't like it
Right on.

How would a 13 year old be able to hide that she was pregnant? Coats? She's gonna be getting one huge belly though. Just think how huge a woman gets when 9 months pregnant, it'll look even more exagerated on a teenage girl.

But yeah, throwing the baby out of the window? o.O

That sort of thing happened just a few doors up from me. With two people very much over the age of consent. Oh, the baby was dead first from battery and a long list of abuses - the throwing out the window thing was to try and disguise the cause of death as an accident.

Didn't work. The male, who I will never forget as being an evil bastard to us all as kids, is now serving a 25 year sentence. Dunno what happened to the girl.

But he definitely got what he deserved, oh boy did he. If he ever gets released, I think there are people living here hoping and praying that he'll be released into the local area - so they can dish their own justice out.

What was the point of this post?

Ah yes. Look at what heterosexual society's pressure to conform to a male/female parental unit can do! We must ban the straights! I think a Defense Of Marriage act is in order.. dammit, that institution was never religious to begin with..

I USE REALLY BIG FONT!!! THEREFORE, I MUST BE RIGHT!!!

dude, it's called rational debate.

get used to it.

dude, it's called rational debate.

get used to it.
I think he may be compensating for something.

I think he may be compensating for something.
HAHA! right on comrade

Who died and made you god?
I think Holy Paradise is Myrth's puppet, seeing as he is not yet banned.

Flogging person art thou out of thine mind? Flogging is too little punishment, i say they should be arrested for life and flogged every 3 to 5 weeks but that is only an opinion and there is no way of telling so it is pointless. And the lot of yous stop making fun of the bible and stop quoting it if you are going to go against it.

Now as it was dead it should be dead again. If you dont let it die then you are a cruel person indeed.

I think Holy Paradise is Myrth's puppet, seeing as he is not yet banned.
Well Myrth is the Architect of this Matrix we call NationStates after all.

Pedownia revived this thread.

Pedownia revived this thread.

Thank you very much

Now Pedownia this isnt a myth as it was in the damnable news. I know of an urban legends site (very good actually) and it was unlisted when it updates about every two months.

NOW no more necroing threads :mad:

Well, care to provide a link to a non-fake news source?