NationStates Jolt Archive

Is it true that having soul will make you superbad?

You people don't get it! Maybe the baby isn't an infant physically yet inside the mother's womb, but the baby has a soul! Let me say it again: The...Baby...Has...A...Soul!

You think you have a soul as well. That wouldn't stop someone from killing you if you invaded her body. Self-defense.

This whole story is an urban legend, not news. It comes up in various places at various times, is cited by, yes, conservative religious nutjobs as an example of awful our society has become, but has never actually been substantiated. Like the totally imaginary 'welfare queens' that Reagan used to seethe about.
You guys just keep making this stuff up. You lie and you lie, and try to force oppressive policies based on those lies down our throats, and dare to call us 'immoral.'
You're right. I'm sickened.

to tell the truth it is real. it was on the radio in new york, q104.3, this mourning. but i have to say that this person is not 13, he is much older. as for the nutjob thing i must agree. religion is and was an archaic form of control used to keep women from cheating on thier husbands. think about it. you and your idiotic kind are the only ones who are screaming at the top of thier lungs that society is going to the shitter. what you are complaining about is the human animal evolving. evolution not evil-lution. also if you sware that your religion is fact than why call it theology? because that is just what it is a theory, an idea that you won't ever prove. taking such a tragic and gross happening and turning it into a shot at a society or group of people is what all your kind has done since the invention of religion. thinking there is an all knowing and all seeing 'parent' in the sky to help you stop the little kids from picking on you is a fucking waste of time just like writing this post. :upyours:

Is it true that having soul will make you superbad?

Only if it leads to unholy Funk.

People, you think I'll become a liberal when I'm older, but I've been a conservative for a longggggggg time.
you're 13. unless you were a conservative in a past life too, that's hardly a long time.

The reason about the clothes is that they are designed to attract men sexually, not just for warmth and to cover your private area.

1) Hollywood doesn't buy the kids' clothes. Parents do. Parents are people and are therefore many of them are idiots.

2) The invention of Hollywood did not make kids wanna have sex with each other. They have been doing so since ever. The age of marriage was very low back then and a 13 year old getting married was no big thing.

3) Hollywood didn't make her want to kill the baby...MORALS did. The shame she felt because she broke the moral taboo of teenage sex and pregnancy (compounded with her lack of knowledge of contraception) led her on the track of hiding (instead of aborting or giving up for adoption which would mean she'd have to tell her parents) and then tossing away the baby to its death.

Hollywood didn't do a damn thing. It was people like you, Holy, that put her on this road.

Hoo, boy! This'nn's fun! (Can I even do that with the apostrophes?)

Ok. Where to start?

You're 13. Longggggg is the promise of a future past tomorrow. You couldn't have longggggg if you counted your formative months.

Ok, that's out of the way. Next: soul.
soul is an existential part of the human psyche that is sued to record all stimulis that comes into it's presence and build judgements based on said stimulus. It resides separate from the brain, as there is absolutely NO part of the brain that has shown the capacity to handle the functions of the soul. There is memory, growth, reactionary response to stimulus (reflex, fight or flight), but no concious center for the brain per se. A more appropriate question to ask would be if you believe in free will? Let me get to that.

If you believe in a purely scientific approach to the universe, then everything can be explained by science, and absolutely nothing can be left to probability. Take the flip of a coin, for instance. There are thousnads of variables that affect a coin flip, such as amount of and vector of force used to launch the coin, mass, density, temperature, velocity and direction of acceleration, air currents, etc., all which make that particular coin flip reach it's inevitble conclusion. We can't possibly compute all of the factors that go into it, so we call it chance. But technically, it isn't. Now, look at the brain. It's nothing more than a clump of cells, synapses, and chemical interchanges. All of which, if broken down, can be easily understood and predicted. So, given that, t should be theoretically possible to determine the entire outcome of your life by setting up the stimulus that you confront in an exact way that reached the identical conclusion in another human being's. This however, is not true. Individual determination and decision come from somewhere else in the human being other than the brain, or else what was proposed before would be true. That 'other' is the soul. Good enough for you commie?

Right. On to morals! What deifines a moral in society? What defines morals at all? Is is a perception of what is good and bad, or right and wrong? If that were the case, than a lot of criminilly insane peop0le are living basically moral lives, since they are doing what they consider to be right and good in their own minds. I suppose that you could call morals a set of standards that is imposed by the majority of the ruling society to distinguish social taboos and what is acceptable. Unfortunately, we do NOT live in a global village. Even murder is not an absolute; take for instance the cannibalistic tribes of Java, or the ancient Romans, Toltecs, Olmecs, Aztecs, etc? What they did was justified by their set of morals. So, as a matter of fact, were hedonism, homosexuality, physical retribution (eye for an eye), and theft, in some cases. I like the definition that was put up along the lines that if it doesn't hurt anybody else, it really isn't immoral. However, you should also thinnk about how those actions hae ramifications that do affect others outside the immediate consequence of said actions. Take, for instance, suicide. Technically, you are nt causing anybody any direct harm. BUT, think of the emotional and mental anguish you cause to all of the people around you, at the very least your parents? Since this really causes others harm, it might be considered immoral. Taking drugs, however, really doesn't fall into that category. The direct imposition of one's beliefs onto another person unwillingly, however, IS an immoral act, since it causes them consternation, and a conflict of thier own personal compass, except where it affects others around them. Hence, unprovoked murder: WRONG AND BAD! Killing in self-defense: OK! :D That is also in the Ten Commandments,(other than KJV, if you go for the direct translation in the Torah), which says Thou shall not kill without just cause or provication, NOT just, Thou shall not kill.

Also, onto comparitive religions! :headbang: Christianity isn't reall all that bad as a lot of people make it out to be. The primciples are very nice: 'Be nice, don't do mean things, love everybody, and live in joy and peace with all of your surroundings.' Nothing wrong with that; hell, I think that it's a very noble aspiration. Hoewver comma there are a lot of people throughout history who have used what is basically a good and decent religion to further thier own twisted ends. King James and Pope Innocent II just sort of jump to the front of my mind, as well as Cardinal Torquemada. Come on, Christianity wasn't the first to create goodwill towards all men though! Quit acting like you did, and that you invented every moralistic idea. And quit stealing other people's religions! That just makes me mad for other reasons.

That's all.

WTF, a foetus is life. That is indisputable, it's alive. You're telling me that until a baby is born it's dead?

It is disputable when a fetus is first 'alive'. I believe that the first brain waves are created at 11 weeks. And just because it's not alive doesn't mean its dead. Is a rock dead because it's not alive. For something to be dead, it must have lived previously.

Sadly, the media is not good at distinguishing ULs from actual events. More than one source is usually advisable.

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=13+15+baby+bronx+church&btnG=Search

dumbass

Ok, that's out of the way. Next: soul.
soul is an existential part of the human psyche that is sued to record all stimulis that comes into it's presence and build judgements based on said stimulus. It resides separate from the brain, as there is absolutely NO part of the brain that has shown the capacity to handle the functions of the soul. There is memory, growth, reactionary response to stimulus (reflex, fight or flight), but no concious center for the brain per se. A more appropriate question to ask would be if you believe in free will? Let me get to that.

If you believe in a purely scientific approach to the universe, then everything can be explained by science, and absolutely nothing can be left to probability. Take the flip of a coin, for instance. There are thousnads of variables that affect a coin flip, such as amount of and vector of force used to launch the coin, mass, density, temperature, velocity and direction of acceleration, air currents, etc., all which make that particular coin flip reach it's inevitble conclusion. We can't possibly compute all of the factors that go into it, so we call it chance. But technically, it isn't. Now, look at the brain. It's nothing more than a clump of cells, synapses, and chemical interchanges. All of which, if broken down, can be easily understood and predicted. So, given that, t should be theoretically possible to determine the entire outcome of your life by setting up the stimulus that you confront in an exact way that reached the identical conclusion in another human being's. This however, is not true. Individual determination and decision come from somewhere else in the human being other than the brain, or else what was proposed before would be true. That 'other' is the soul. Good enough for you commie?
Well, quantum mechanics is another possibility of some of what you said. The coin thing, mostly. Do you know anything about that, or should I explain, or is it too hopelessly off-topic and should I just not bother?

Also, just because they've not yet found a center for conscious hoice, doesn't mean there isn't. They haven't comprehensively learned everything about it.

dumbass
Please refrain from flaming

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

Wow, 13 and already corrupted and fucked up by conservative crap and religious dogma. I pity you, and your poor parents.

Please refrain from flaming

oops, my bad. i thought this was the internet.

If she'd gone ahead and gotten an abortion early on no infant would have been killed and she'd be a free girl today.
Either way, the dead baby loses. What a grand step for society.

Adoption? Do you know how many children remain in orphanages without being adopted at all?
Try condoms instead - they help preventing STDs as well
Try not having sex when you're THIRTEEN FREAKING YEARS OLD!

I hope this sorry excuse for a human being is punished to the maximum extent the law permits, and the father as well - he's a rapist, and an accesory to murder.

oops, my bad. i thought this was the internet.
This is the Internet, but it also so happens to be a forum, with rules. One of them prohiits flaming.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381334

You can be forumbanned or deleted for flaming here, if the moderators see fit.

I agree. I VERY STRONGLY agree.
+1 to that.

And at which point exactly does a foetus gain a soul?
Conception.

Listen. As soon as you shit a bowling ball, you have the right to talk. Until then, you have no fucking right to tell a women to go through a living hell.


Yeah! Dooming a girl and her child to a tormented existance is caring about life!


Yeah! Let's take away all of our rights, all be crushed under the heel of oppression! Ave Caesar!

Nobody forcibly impregnated her.


Note: Excessive profanity used because he said he didn't like it.
Ooh, aren't you mature. :rolleyes:

Conception.

Proof?

Conception.

Do sperm and egg cells have half-souls?

Do sperm and egg cells have half-souls?

If they do, I'd hate to think of how many "souls" I flushed down the toilet just this very morning. :D

This is the Internet, but it also so happens to be a forum, with rules. One of them prohiits flaming.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381334

You can be forumbanned or deleted for flaming here, if the moderators see fit.

and calling someone a dumbass qualifies as a flame here? how much crap has the morally outraged dork who started this thing caught w/o anyone else getting any sort of warning? lighten up.

First Post!

Sperm and Egg are just physical components, if they're seperated then well, there's no where for the soul to reside, once the egg is fertilized, there is a place for the soul to reside. So long as neither come in contact, there's no vessel for the soul, just two seperate components.

Once there's a fertilized egg any form of abortion is murder because you're destroying the physical shell for the soul. While the soul remains, the shell is dead, therefore the soul has no where to go and returns to its creator.

At the only instance where abortion might be necessary is when the mother's health is at risk for having the child, that of course is a last resort. Because not only would possibly the child die, but the mother could possibly die too.

and calling someone a dumbass qualifies as a flame here? how much crap has the morally outraged dork who started this thing caught w/o anyone else getting any sort of warning? lighten up.
I don't understand your question.

Also, I posted that to warn you about that. If you'd rather I didn't do so, you may ignore me.

Sperm and Egg are just physical components, if they're seperated then well, there's no where for the soul to reside, once the egg is fertilized, there is a place for the soul to reside. So long as neither come in contact, there's no vessel for the soul, just two seperate components.

What's so special about fertilized eggs that makes them soul containers? They're just egg cells with the full complement of chromosomes. Does each cell in my body have a soul? :confused:

I don't understand your question.

Also, I posted that to warn you about that. If you'd rather I didn't do so, you may ignore me.

yeah, i couldn't string all my thoughts in to a nice compact sentence. there were flame posts before mine (so-called), but no warnings were handed out. i call someone a dumbass, and you feel the need to say something. i can think of a few fates worse than being banned from here, so i'll risk it. thanks for your concern, anyway.

What's so special about fertilized eggs that makes them soul containers? They're just egg cells with the full complement of chromosomes. Does each cell in my body have a soul? :confused:

Not individually, but you as a whole person. You could get an arm knocked off or a leg, but you'd still have a place for the soul to go, what ever is left of you.

EDIT//

Chromosomes only control the functions and development of the shell (Your physical body), not the soul.

Oh. Good enough, I suppose. Where do souls come from?

OMG, Holy Paradise is the ultimate retard in a land of disabled creatures. Thirteen years old, and making statements like this, when everyone knows this opinion will change two years from now, when he actually gets a brain, and matures beyond the mindframe of a two-year-old chimpanzee. Fanatics like this you just can;t talk to, you might as well do this ----> :headbang: It would give way more satisfaction than actually trying to reason with 'tards like this.

I rest my amazingly intellectual case. :p

I'm not saying its okay to slaughter animals, that's bad too, as God said "Take care of the planet". But the needs of humans in my opinion are more important than animals, and God agrees with that. when it comes to feeding the human race, animals will die. If they die pointlessly and are not replaced(because like most people, I like to fish and hunt, but I'd replace the creatures through asking the government to "re-stock" as its called.)then its bad


You seem to think society is going to hell. I am assuming that you believe there is some past "better time"? The "good old days", perhaps? Sex was not discovered in the 1960s. I read somewhere a few years ago that 1/3 of children born in colonial New England in the late 1700s were born out of wedlock.

From a historical standpoint these are the best times to live in human history. Now I know there are pockets of really horrible conditions and events happening around the world but relative to those who came before us we're doing much better.

One amoral selfish young woman who commits this horrible act does not indicate what society's morals are. She is an abberration. Because of our instant media that operates under the manta of "if it bleeds it leads" we get to hear and see all manner of human abomination.

Point is - Bad crap has always happened. We just get to hear about it and see it more now. People have claimed that the end of the world was at hand ever since we started talking. It's the same as it ever was.

Proof?
This isn't something that can be scientifically proven, and it is silly of you to ask. However, it reasonably follows, as I'll show.

A body either does or does not have a soul -- it's a binary equation. Ergo, the soul MUST enter the body at a particular, clear-cut point. There are small variations in the age at which a unborn infant will develop organs, etc., and these aren't binary equations -- a heart doesn't grow in an instant.

There is only one such point in pregnancy (even birth takes a manner of minutes) -- conception. A child either has or has not be conceived; there's no 'in-between'. Thus, it follows that the soul enters at the point of conception.

If they do, I'd hate to think of how many "souls" I flushed down the toilet just this very morning. :D

Bill Hicks (http://www.billhicks.com/) said it best - "Entire civilizations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel."

If you believe in a higher power then that's where. If not, well, keep looking. There's nothing out there that says this is the absolute answer, it's just the one I think works out pretty darn well. I think it goes without saying that people do have something with the characteristics of a soul, otherwise how would we think? A good question would be, why do I see things, feel like I have a presence and why do I sense with everything that I've known of (ears, tongue, skin, eyes, nose, etc.) since I first realized I existed. I guess another way to think about it is, what is being?

It's sometimes difficult to understand one's self and sometimes takes other people to get the right answers. The same thing can probably be said about ourselves as humans, we can't fully understand ourselves, it takes someone else to do it for us.

i agree with Holy, i believe that you only hav to go as far at music television to see wat has happened to society. i think it's the presure on teens from rap, rnb, pop artist, in my opion, that makes then grow up too fast. btw i don't hav one religious bone in me but i h8 "popular" culture these days

This isn't something that can be scientifically proven, and it is silly of you to ask. However, it reasonably follows, as I'll show.

A body either does or does not have a soul -- it's a binary equation. Ergo, the soul MUST enter the body at a particular, clear-cut point. There are small variations in the age at which a unborn infant will develop organs, etc., and these aren't binary equations -- a heart doesn't grow in an instant.

There is only one such point in pregnancy (even birth takes a manner of minutes) -- conception. A child either has or has not be conceived; there's no 'in-between'. Thus, it follows that the soul enters at the point of conception.
The only problem is first you have to prove there is a soul.

I dunno why I try, but I suppose for once I'll add something that at least *slightly* resembles something other than a smartass comment. :p On the same note, don't bother thinking I'll get inflammed should anyone scoff at what I have to say.

My roomate, the religion and history teaching major (although a bit of the drinker/slut I must say) has always been a bit of a devout Christian (well, now he's more Jewish, and decided to emphasize in Islamic studies). After his upteenth religion class, I have to say I pretty much trust him when he comments on something that he's written a 20+ paper on for a thesis. He did one such paper on abortion in which he was forced to write defending pro-choice, and after being staunchly against it as murder, now he feels that the bible isn't against it, at least not completely. I'd figure he's now sorta an inbetween pro-choice/life.

Anyway, one of his arguements, from Exodus 21:22-25: "And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Basically, eye for an eye does not apply to an unborn child. A simple fine is sufficient. The priviledge of eye for an eye is reserved for offenses against a human. This wasn't his best arguement by far even, but its the only one I remember off the top of my head without him around.

So, just wanted to throw out something religious to defend the non-religious side, and I have no desire for a war of passages, so I'll trot back to the sidelines. :p

i agree with Holy, i believe that you only hav to go as far at music television to see wat has happened to society. i think it's the presure on teens from rap, rnb, pop artist, in my opion, that makes then grow up too fast. btw i don't hav one religious bone in me but i h8 "popular" culture these days

Popular culture is a waste of time, money, and perfectly good timeslots on TV.

This isn't something that can be scientifically proven, and it is silly of you to ask. However, it reasonably follows, as I'll show.

A body either does or does not have a soul -- it's a binary equation. Ergo, the soul MUST enter the body at a particular, clear-cut point. There are small variations in the age at which a unborn infant will develop organs, etc., and these aren't binary equations -- a heart doesn't grow in an instant.

There is only one such point in pregnancy (even birth takes a manner of minutes) -- conception. A child either has or has not be conceived; there's no 'in-between'. Thus, it follows that the soul enters at the point of conception.
why not put the soul at the first brainwaves?

those turn on rather suddenly.

it makes much more sense than conception. if it's at conception, identical twins share a soul and chimeric persons have two. if it's at conception than a full 50% of ensouled persons get flushed out of a woman's system completely naturally without her even getting pregnant. a further 25% of implanted zygotes spontaneously abort before she even knows she's pregnant. why wouldn't the soul enter at a more stable time in development?

This isn't something that can be scientifically proven, and it is silly of you to ask. However, it reasonably follows, as I'll show.

A body either does or does not have a soul -- it's a binary equation. Ergo, the soul MUST enter the body at a particular, clear-cut point. There are small variations in the age at which a unborn infant will develop organs, etc., and these aren't binary equations -- a heart doesn't grow in an instant.

There is only one such point in pregnancy (even birth takes a manner of minutes) -- conception. A child either has or has not be conceived; there's no 'in-between'. Thus, it follows that the soul enters at the point of conception.

So, because you can't prove something you claim, you take to this fallacious "logic" in order to deflect that you're basically talking out of your ass?

Isn't it a girl's right to decide how much of herself to expose? (at a certain age...)

Bill Hicks (http://www.billhicks.com/) said it best - "Entire civilizations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel."

That quote is disturbing enough for me to shamelessly steal it.

So, because you can't prove something you claim, you take to this fallacious "logic" in order to deflect that you're basically talking out of your ass?

Do you trust that the chair you're probably sitting in will hold you up? But meanwhile you don't really know if it will? Might there be a problem with the chair? You could go and solve this problem mathematically but how do you know those are wrong.

It's all about faith, whatever you believe in.

Do you trust that the chair you're probably sitting in will hold you up? But meanwhile you don't really know if it will? Might there be a problem with the chair? You could go and solve this problem mathematically but how do you know those are wrong.

It's all about faith, whatever you believe in.

Wow, an even more fallacious "argument".

Do you trust that the chair you're probably sitting in will hold you up? But meanwhile you don't really know if it will? Might there be a problem with the chair? You could go and solve this problem mathematically but how do you know those are wrong.

It's all about faith, whatever you believe in.

Yeah, but he's sat in that chair 1000 times and it's never broken - he has evidence. You've never proven the existance of a soul, and probably never will.

You'll never be able to argue on the premise that a soul is important because lots of people just won't listen to you because they'll say "do souls exist?". If you argue on "life is important", then they'll probably listen (but they still won't agree with you unless you present a sensible argument).

Ok, that's out of the way. Next: soul.
soul is an existential part of the human psyche that is sued to record all stimulis that comes into it's presence and build judgements based on said stimulus. It resides separate from the brain, as there is absolutely NO part of the brain that has shown the capacity to handle the functions of the soul. There is memory, growth, reactionary response to stimulus (reflex, fight or flight), but no concious center for the brain per se. A more appropriate question to ask would be if you believe in free will? Let me get to that.

If you believe in a purely scientific approach to the universe, then everything can be explained by science, and absolutely nothing can be left to probability. Take the flip of a coin, for instance. There are thousnads of variables that affect a coin flip, such as amount of and vector of force used to launch the coin, mass, density, temperature, velocity and direction of acceleration, air currents, etc., all which make that particular coin flip reach it's inevitble conclusion. We can't possibly compute all of the factors that go into it, so we call it chance. But technically, it isn't. Now, look at the brain. It's nothing more than a clump of cells, synapses, and chemical interchanges. All of which, if broken down, can be easily understood and predicted. So, given that, t should be theoretically possible to determine the entire outcome of your life by setting up the stimulus that you confront in an exact way that reached the identical conclusion in another human being's. This however, is not true. Individual determination and decision come from somewhere else in the human being other than the brain, or else what was proposed before would be true. That 'other' is the soul. Good enough for you commie?


Actually, randomness is a very central concept to modern physics, quantum mechanics especially. At the beginning of the last century, Godel demonstrated fairly conclusively that no matter how complex or comprehensive a mathematical system, there will always be propositions that cannot be proven or disproven within that system. As a result, there is a very real limitation on mathematics' ability to demonstrate "everything", for lack of a better term, and mathematics is the language of physics.

Even further, Heisenburg demonstrated that it was impossible to at once know with absolute certainty both the position of a subatomic particle and its velocity: you could know one precisely and the other not at all, or you could make a reasonable stab in the subatomic dark about both, but not have absolute knowledge of both.

This is not to try to defend religious extremism, as I don't, but if science can't accurately predict the actions of an electron three seconds from now, how exactly do you hope to come up with an entirely mechanistic conception of the brain, or show that the mind and the brain are merely one and the same thing?


Right. On to morals! What deifines a moral in society? What defines morals at all? Is is a perception of what is good and bad, or right and wrong? If that were the case, than a lot of criminilly insane peop0le are living basically moral lives, since they are doing what they consider to be right and good in their own minds. I suppose that you could call morals a set of standards that is imposed by the majority of the ruling society to distinguish social taboos and what is acceptable. Unfortunately, we do NOT live in a global village. Even murder is not an absolute; take for instance the cannibalistic tribes of Java, or the ancient Romans, Toltecs, Olmecs, Aztecs, etc? What they did was justified by their set of morals. So, as a matter of fact, were hedonism, homosexuality, physical retribution (eye for an eye), and theft, in some cases. I like the definition that was put up along the lines that if it doesn't hurt anybody else, it really isn't immoral. However, you should also thinnk about how those actions hae ramifications that do affect others outside the immediate consequence of said actions. Take, for instance, suicide. Technically, you are nt causing anybody any direct harm. BUT, think of the emotional and mental anguish you cause to all of the people around you, at the very least your parents? Since this really causes others harm, it might be considered immoral. Taking drugs, however, really doesn't fall into that category. The direct imposition of one's beliefs onto another person unwillingly, however, IS an immoral act, since it causes them consternation, and a conflict of thier own personal compass, except where it affects others around them. Hence, unprovoked murder: WRONG AND BAD! Killing in self-defense: OK! :D That is also in the Ten Commandments,(other than KJV, if you go for the direct translation in the Torah), which says Thou shall not kill without just cause or provication, NOT just, Thou shall not kill.


1) You might want to read up on something called the "Naturalistic Fallacy". Basically, the idea is that there is no necessary connection between what does happen and what ought to happen. Slavery is a common practice in human history, for example, but I sincerely doubt you can therefore press the claim that it is therefore right to enslave others. By the same token, even if no one in the history of the world had ever sacrificed his own life for the preservation of another's, I would hesitate to say that it was therefore any less noble a concept.

How does it apply in this case? Well, the basic argument you just laid out is that, hey!, the Romans did things differently, so therefore your claim to universal morality is bunk. This is, of course, a ridiculous claim, because the fact that Romans operated under a different conception of justice does not, in and of itself, make one bit of difference whatsoever about the legitimacy of those who claimed to distribute it or validate the "justice" they meted out. The razing of Carthage, for instance, may have been justified by Roman orators of the day, but that does not somehow make the putting to death of every civilian (women and children included) in the city and salting the earth the city stood upon somehow okey-dokey.

2) I'm not sure I would make the blanket statement you would about pushing your morality on others being a bad thing. If I convinced Jeffrey Dahmer not to eat you, generally speaking I think we'd both have a hard time not seeing that as a moral act, despite the fact that we were pushing our non-cannabilistic moral notions upon poor Jeffrey.

Now, having covered that, let's move on to good ol' Holy's commentary:


See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

If that story you mentioned were true (which strikes me as about as likely as Ashlee Simpson's acid reflux excuse), and if everyone who had abortions was the kind of person who would chuck their kid, then maybe, just maybe I might have some slim kind of agreement with you, and I might just think that the world really is going to hell in a handbasket (which I don't). But neither of them are; they're just strawmen that you punch around because you can't deal with a realistic take on abortion.

Since you're only 13 and obviously in the grip of kooky Pat Robertson types, I'll humor you and not be too hard on you. Suffice to say that, contrary to what the wackos that you've been listening to you have told you (and they are wackos, I assure you, Holy), abortion is not the sacrament of the Godless atheistic teenage whores. In point of fact, a married woman in her 40's who is either too old to have another child with any degree of safety, or who can only afford to feed the four children she already has (barely), is every bit as likely to have an abortion or have had an abortion, if not more so, as one of those loose teenagers you seem so terrified by. For these women, having abortion is taking responsibility, because it means that her other children will have food to eat and a healthy mommy to take care of them. In all your raging against abortion in all its forms, I'm guessing that it never occured to you that this might be one of the forms it takes, but rest assured it would and does. Maybe you want to consider what it would be like to lose your own parent or have to live on a can of Ramen per day before you keep railing against the "immoral" Roe v. Wade.

Prove it doesnt. Because we can't be certian when the soul (If it exists at all) exists or when a conception becomes a life instead of a cluster of cells, aboriton is frankly an issue of risk taking. Because we dont know, we cant make that kind of decison.

but then again, we don't know that animism isn't true either. better make an offering to the spirits before offending them by mowing the lawn.

Yeah, but he's sat in that chair 1000 times and it's never broken - he has evidence. You've never proven the existance of a soul, and probably never will.

You'll never be able to argue on the premise that a soul is important because lots of people just won't listen to you because they'll say "do souls exist?". If you argue on "life is important", then they'll probably listen (but they still won't agree with you unless you present a sensible argument).


Oh well. Woe is me. Woe is me for believing in a fallacy...

Now of course the thing I'd like you to prove is who you are in terms of being? Only a series of chemical reactions occuring in your brain? Or something else?

but then again, we don't know that animism isn't true either. better make an offering to the spirits before offending them by mowing the lawn.

Don't forget the garden gnomes! You know they'll be pissed.

Oh well. Woe is me. Woe is me for believing in a fallacy...

Now of course the thing I'd like you to prove is who you are in terms of being? Only a series of chemical reactions occuring in your brain? Or something else?

The one who claims is the one who proves.

The one who claims is the one who proves.

How pissed were the gnomes? :/

Yeah, but he's sat in that chair 1000 times and it's never broken - he has evidence.
But that doesn't mean it won't break the next time. Many people sit in chairs without them breaking, later to have the same chair break.

Oh well. Woe is me. Woe is me for believing in a fallacy...

Now of course the thing I'd like you to prove is who you are in terms of being? Only a series of chemical reactions occuring in your brain? Or something else?
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway:

I have no idea. I have no way of proving it, and I haven't found any belief that makes any more sense than any other. Because it can't be proven either way, and I haven't even seen supporting evidence for any of the possibilities really.

That's my take on it.

Unfortunately, Holy Paradise, you're just as guilty as they are of this tradgedy (or at least your ideology is just as responsible for gross overgeneralizations and impractibility that leads to these disasters, at least in part).
You are a militant winger with a fascist agenda, as are the militant liberal wingers you rage against.
Two questions:

Lefties, are you that sick to dispose (at least intellectually) of this child? It does sound like some of you are justifying the attrocious actions of these children (or at least placing all of the blame on the right).

You, Holy Paradise, why didn't they have access to condoms? To better sex education? I know you're young and have just found your first ideology, but you have very immature and limited perspectives here.

Both militant sides are hurting America, and both sides are just as scary.

But that doesn't mean it won't break the next time. Many people sit in chairs without them breaking, later to have the same chair break.

True, but then nothing is guaranteed. At least he knows the chair is likely not to break (and indeed that anything that looks like a chair in general are likely to be safe to sit on).

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

Knock off the flaming.

True, but then nothing is guaranteed. At least he knows the chair is likely not to break (and indeed that anything that looks like a chair in general are likely to be safe to sit on).

But there is always a chance that it will. There's always a chance for anything to happen. Even have pigs fly.

But there is always a chance that it will. There's always a chance for anything to happen. Even have pigs fly.

Mmm.... air-born bacon....

But there is always a chance that it will. There's always a chance for anything to happen. Even have pigs fly.

Sure, there's a chance. But we don't make legislation on the basis of "what if pigs will fly." (Or, for that matter, on "what if pigs have souls, maybe we should ban pork just in case")

I know, I also believe abortion is okay. But only in the case of rape, incest, or death of mother at childbirth.
For once, a liberal on this site has reasonably explained their point to me, and those points are the ones I respect. Oh the Roe vs. Wade thing was just out of pure anger.


May have brought up already, but


Death of mother at childbirth? You think thats an ok reason for abortion? Are you sure you aren't confused and meant to say adoption? You just lost the whole (ridiculous and stupid)argument right there.

and not to sound like everyone else (again).


But I want SOURCES! I want sources people! with names, dates and other particulars.

But there is always a chance that it will. There's always a chance for anything to happen. Even have pigs fly.

Yes. Your hamster might explode and kill you (after finding that you seemingly randomly had a hamster you never knew you had).

The thing is that some people tend to pick something - like "pigs flying", and then try and argue it into truth because "they believe".

It seems from many of the posts I've read, most are more interested in trying to batter people into believing that "souls exist" rather than the topic of concern which was the foetuses being aborted? I say this because if were actually interested in "the welfare of the foetuses" rather than "their beliefs and... souls", then surely they'd phrase their terminology somewhere along the lines of "the importance of life", and "when does a foetus become alive" rather than sticking in the whole objectionable "soul" issue?

How pissed were the gnomes? :/

This one time I forgot to offer them some porridge, as is customary in this part of the world, and they got so pissed, they killed my dog by giving him cancer.

Evil, they are!

Sure, there's a chance. But we don't make legislation on the basis of "what if pigs will fly." (Or, for that matter, on "what if pigs have souls, maybe we should ban pork just in case")

Of course you wouldn't because it's not likely to happen, but can it?

It seems from many of the posts I've read, most are more interested in trying to batter people into believing that "souls exist" rather than the topic of concern which was the foetuses being aborted? I say this because if were actually interested in "the welfare of the foetuses" rather than "their beliefs and... souls", then surely they'd phrase their terminology somewhere along the lines of "the importance of life", and "when does a foetus become alive" rather than sticking in the whole objectionable "soul" issue?
Well said. Also, tip to the debaters here :
Overstate, lose the debate.
(I'm sure if you've taken debate in college, you've heard this neumonic)

May have brought up already, but


Death of mother at childbirth? You think thats an ok reason for abortion? Are you sure you aren't confused and meant to say adoption? You just lost the whole (ridiculous and stupid)argument right there.
He means if giving birth to the baby would kill the mother.

Well said. Also, tip to the debaters here :
Overstate, lose the debate.
(I'm sure if you've taken debate in college, you've heard this neumonic)
You have a point, and I'm dead set on life starting at fertilization.

He means if giving birth to the baby would kill the mother.
Potentially both in some cases.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!
You are grossly misinformed. An early abortion would be the only good solution in this case.
And a proper sexual education was needed long before this ever happened.
Having sex is not an immoral action, but having it that early is not recommended. I blame the guy, he was two years older than her. And the society that allows these things to happen because of lack of education and double morale standards. The girl is also very stupid and has made a horrible mess of both her and her baby's life :( but she is too young to be fully responsible.

If you think that some young girls before the 1960s didn't have sex you are very witty indeed. :)

By the way, a 13 year old should NEVER be accused of murder. There are other options in how to deal with juvenile delinquencies and horrible crimes like this commited by minors.

Well Mister Bible, what do you think?

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/2410/bible9cc.jpg

"I think this thread is full of bullshit! Abortion isn't murder-I even say so!"



Well said Mister Bible, well said..

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.


Wow I love how you take a specific sick incedent and turn it into reflecting the whole of sociaty...

BTW do you have a linky to the story?

for all we know these two could be "christians"

Well Mister Bible, what do you think?

"I think this thread is full of bullshit! Abortion isn't murder-I even say so!

Well said Mister Bible, well said..

heh, it's funny and true

Whats red and crawls up your leg?

A homesick abortion!!


Im gonna get flamed bad for this...

Whats red and crawls up your leg?

A homesick abortion!!


Im gonna get flamed bad for this...
3... 2... 1...

WHOOSH! A wall of fire sweeps across the naiton of Masobia! :D

j/k ;)

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

(hypothetical)
My religion and morals invovles human sacrifices. You are first. YOu have no choice, as my morals are right for everybody. They will be forced upon you, and there is nothing you can do about it.

(IN reality)
Abortion is a sin. I belive that. However, not all people see it that way. It is not our place to force our values upon everyone (anyone) else.

Sorry. I do have respect. I have respect for you for carrying the child. But I hate it how morals have been lost in society. I respect people's opinions. But I'm just tired of it! It makes me cry! Seriously! I think of how Jesus right now is looking down on Earth and thinking, "This is what I died for? I died...only to be forgotten for the reason why? I still know I did the right thing....but...everyday now I receive back into heaven the children I had great plans for. I gave these children...great gifts...the children are gifts within themselves, and its just getting thrown back at me." That's why I am angry, because of what society has became.

Why don't we just declare a totalitarian Christian theocracy while we're at it? "God" will be watching in the form of an oppressive government. Feel free to move to Saudi Arabia if you want to live in a theocracy. I'll stay here in the Western world, where, as "immoral" as you think it is, I am rather contented. Could be better, but it could be Saudi Arabia.

It's not like people here want your morality shoved down their throats either. No one's forcing you to have sex before marriage. If you think sex is strictly for procreation and enjoying it is a sin, fine by me, but most people here happen to disagree with that and they don't like the idea of being forced to live according to your ideology. I know I don't. And I like my "rights", thank you very much.

Dull, dull, desperately and depressingly DULL. Say something witty, any of you. You can't? Hah. tell me something I didn't know already.

Dull, dull, dull half-wittedly DULL, pedantic and incredibly BORING.

Try not having sex when you're THIRTEEN FREAKING YEARS OLD!

I hope this sorry excuse for a human being is punished to the maximum extent the law permits, and the father as well - he's a rapist, and an accesory to murder.
how about the girls parents, I think they are to blame here or even the guys parents. They should have prepared their children better for life so they wouldnt be in this situation :rolleyes:

Dull, dull, desperately and depressingly DULL. Say something witty, any of you. You can't? Hah. tell me something I didn't know already.

Dull, dull, dull half-wittedly DULL, pedantic and incredibly BORING.
Did you know if I was a kangaroo, I couldn't be the postman?

Physically you cannot remember anything before 3 years old. It's a psychological fact. So they are indeed lying.
Actually, people with multiple personalities can sometimes remember being under 2 years old. Eh..

Actually, people with multiple personalities can sometimes remember being under 2 years old. Eh..
What happens if somebody with multiple personalities falls in love with another personality?
What happens if one personality wants to marry someone, but another doesn't?
What if one personality gets so mad at another that he/she/it decides to kill it? It's not a suicide, really, it's a murder and suicide in one, but it can't be tried.

Odd.
:D

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_011705_babyparents.html ?

Hey! That is a good mock up. I did the same thing with CNN and Frontpage two years ago.

You folks believe everything you read, don't you?

Even if it is true, so what? Children... even this little boy who started this thread... do not have the capacity to deal with this kind of extremely traumatic life-altering experience. The children in the story obviously were church-going types, so not only did their parents, teachers, friends and family fail them, so did their church and it's teachings.

OR you can chock this up to the fact that 13 year olds THINK they know everything, when in fact they know nothing. I guess if we start looking deeply into this issue, what we will find is that teenagers as a whole are a bunch of irresponsible people. Hmmm?! Maybe we shouldn't let them vote.

Is this a tearing of the societal fabric... nah. It is just another example of stupid children and poor parenting. These same things have gone on since man first crawled out of the primordial soup. It is just now that we have global information, we all get slapped in the face by it.

Can this kind of thing be stopped. Yes. With enough money and time, anything is possible. I propose elaborate testing for anyone who wants to be a parent. Not just a simple NS type thing either. I mean extensive IQ testing. If you can't read or do higher math functions... no offspring for you. In fact, I think we should lock up all children in asexual schools until they are at least 19. No contact with the opposite sex... that is just as likely to happen.

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.
this girl was so afraid to seek out help for her pregnancy that she threw her infant out the window, and you think the problem is we are TOO PERMISSIVE?!!!!!

do you honestly think that it is just to force women to dress a certain way in order to establish morality? do you really think that will actually acheive anything? if you answered yes, congrats: you are now a member of the Taliban.

Ok, ok, I know Schrodinger, I know Heisenberg, I know particle-wave and spin probability, and if you give me enought time, I might be able to refind the equation for determining the variance of uncetainty in subatomic particles do to the certainty of knowledge of any of the given variables. The nifty thing about quantum mechanics, is that it all sort of breaks down after you leave the atomic levle, and start working in things like, oh, molecules. If it were to apply outside of those realms, then you could never be certain of anything. Even yourself, since technically speaking, after we get by all of the cells, and the comples proteins, and the DNA and such, you are basically just a bunch of subatomic particles. Who's to say that you're really even there then? We can't have that as an absolute, since we can make the determination that you, hypothetically, are standing in front of hypothetical me. That's a determination of position. What about velocity? Well, we can observe that you aren't moving. Classical physics has done wonderfully in most areas of life that have to do with two or more atoms strung together, so long as they are not approaching the speed of light. Even then, it only really falls apart when you actually reach that speed.

Anyway, back to the coin. If the room that you were flipping the coin in was a vacuum, or at least had no air currents, and I had control over the variable of placement, I could calculate you out the flip of a coin all day long (although it might jusst take me that long to determine the outcome; shit like that's not easy you know). I think somebody actually did that at MIT for a junior thesis that required recordable proof. Once you throw in air currents, the only thing that has changed are the vectors of force applied to the coin. It's still deterministic.

As for Godel; his postualte still is true. All that it really states, though, is the deterministic probability of certain outcomes that he didn't have th tools to measure the variables for. There are still subjects where his postualte apply, although that category is rapidly shrinking, thankes to advances in laser measurements, and electrical applications used as tools of measurements. Trust me, if you know a set of variables, and those varialbes remian constant, nothing is gonna change the outcome. Nothing.

So, somhow, this all goes back to the soul, but even I've forgotten how. :p

Edit: Sorry, used roomate's country on accident; this is still Prompt.

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.
What you need is a case of beer and a good hard shag

I'm not disillusioned with society! Society is disillusioned! I know what society is today! Today's f-words are not cusses, no, they are "personal responsibility"!

that's the 'p'-word

[QUOTE=Xenophobialand]


1) You might want to read up on something called the "Naturalistic Fallacy". Basically, the idea is that there is no necessary connection between what does happen and what ought to happen. Slavery is a common practice in human history, for example, but I sincerely doubt you can therefore press the claim that it is therefore right to enslave others. By the same token, even if no one in the history of the world had ever sacrificed his own life for the preservation of another's, I would hesitate to say that it was therefore any less noble a concept.

How does it apply in this case? Well, the basic argument you just laid out is that, hey!, the Romans did things differently, so therefore your claim to universal morality is bunk. This is, of course, a ridiculous claim, because the fact that Romans operated under a different conception of justice does not, in and of itself, make one bit of difference whatsoever about the legitimacy of those who claimed to distribute it or validate the "justice" they meted out. The razing of Carthage, for instance, may have been justified by Roman orators of the day, but that does not somehow make the putting to death of every civilian (women and children included) in the city and salting the earth the city stood upon somehow okey-dokey.

2) I'm not sure I would make the blanket statement you would about pushing your morality on others being a bad thing. If I convinced Jeffrey Dahmer not to eat you, generally speaking I think we'd both have a hard time not seeing that as a moral act, despite the fact that we were pushing our non-cannabilistic moral notions upon poor Jeffrey.

Really now, you should read the rest of my quote. The first part of the rant on morals was just to debunk conceptualized, encapsulating morals. The Romans and the like were merely sued as examples. If you want some REAL fun, try todetermine the ruling factors of ancinet Sumerian life; and if you can figure them out, please let me know.
No, no, I think the last part of the rant on morals, which went something like this:
I like the definition that was put up along the lines that if it doesn't hurt anybody else, it really isn't immoral. However, you should also thinnk about how those actions hae ramifications that do affect others outside the immediate consequence of said actions. Take, for instance, suicide. Technically, you are nt causing anybody any direct harm. BUT, think of the emotional and mental anguish you cause to all of the people around you, at the very least your parents? Since this really causes others harm, it might be considered immoral. Taking drugs, however, really doesn't fall into that category. The direct imposition of one's beliefs onto another person unwillingly, however, IS an immoral act, since it causes them consternation, and a conflict of thier own personal compass, except where it affects others around them. Hence, unprovoked murder: WRONG AND BAD! Killing in self-defense: OK!
Or something of the like. I agree with you: if you stopped Jeffery Dahmer from eating somebody, that's a good thing, since you prevented him from directly hurting somebody else => moralistic. A debater that that can't rebuttle the entire argument really shouldn't try, but I think your response was just a misunderstanding of what was written, or possible not reading far enough.

Oh yeah, and about adoption. A couple of good books to read on that subject were both written by persons who lived in orphanages and foster homes: "A Boy Called It," and "They Cage the Animals At Night". They're both very light reading, probably less than a day for either, but it really makes you ask yourslef, is this really a better alternative for the poor kids who get stuck without anybody wanting to adpot them?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

Please warn me before you try to start the next Taliban.

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.


"We have lost our ways"? When did we still have them? You say this as if you have been watching the moral degredation of society for decades. (I'm not saying it has been falling apart morally) Being 13, we could say you have had (actual) knowledge of todays society for say, 2 years.
"This is todays society, people" Yeah, I always hear news of 13 year old mothers throwing their new born children from windows. I dont see how one incident could define todays moral standards. I heard the story of that German cannibal, so obviously in todays society it is commonplace for people to be eaten. Shit! I'd better lock the doors before someone breaks in and starts chewing on my arm.

What you need is a case of beer and a good hard shag
I think you volunteered *shoves you at him*

I think you volunteered *shoves you at him*
*flips out his wallet and gives Holy Paradise cash for a case of beer*

Hoo, boy! This'nn's fun! (Can I even do that with the apostrophes?)

Ok. Where to start?

You're 13. Longggggg is the promise of a future past tomorrow. You couldn't have longggggg if you counted your formative months.

Ok, that's out of the way. Next: soul.
soul is an existential part of the human psyche that is sued to record all stimulis that comes into it's presence and build judgements based on said stimulus. It resides separate from the brain, as there is absolutely NO part of the brain that has shown the capacity to handle the functions of the soul. There is memory, growth, reactionary response to stimulus (reflex, fight or flight), but no concious center for the brain per se. A more appropriate question to ask would be if you believe in free will? Let me get to that.

If you believe in a purely scientific approach to the universe, then everything can be explained by science, and absolutely nothing can be left to probability. Take the flip of a coin, for instance. There are thousnads of variables that affect a coin flip, such as amount of and vector of force used to launch the coin, mass, density, temperature, velocity and direction of acceleration, air currents, etc., all which make that particular coin flip reach it's inevitble conclusion. We can't possibly compute all of the factors that go into it, so we call it chance. But technically, it isn't. Now, look at the brain. It's nothing more than a clump of cells, synapses, and chemical interchanges. All of which, if broken down, can be easily understood and predicted. So, given that, t should be theoretically possible to determine the entire outcome of your life by setting up the stimulus that you confront in an exact way that reached the identical conclusion in another human being's. This however, is not true. Individual determination and decision come from somewhere else in the human being other than the brain, or else what was proposed before would be true. That 'other' is the soul. Good enough for you commie?

Right. On to morals! What deifines a moral in society? What defines morals at all? Is is a perception of what is good and bad, or right and wrong? If that were the case, than a lot of criminilly insane peop0le are living basically moral lives, since they are doing what they consider to be right and good in their own minds. I suppose that you could call morals a set of standards that is imposed by the majority of the ruling society to distinguish social taboos and what is acceptable. Unfortunately, we do NOT live in a global village. Even murder is not an absolute; take for instance the cannibalistic tribes of Java, or the ancient Romans, Toltecs, Olmecs, Aztecs, etc? What they did was justified by their set of morals. So, as a matter of fact, were hedonism, homosexuality, physical retribution (eye for an eye), and theft, in some cases. I like the definition that was put up along the lines that if it doesn't hurt anybody else, it really isn't immoral. However, you should also thinnk about how those actions hae ramifications that do affect others outside the immediate consequence of said actions. Take, for instance, suicide. Technically, you are nt causing anybody any direct harm. BUT, think of the emotional and mental anguish you cause to all of the people around you, at the very least your parents? Since this really causes others harm, it might be considered immoral. Taking drugs, however, really doesn't fall into that category. The direct imposition of one's beliefs onto another person unwillingly, however, IS an immoral act, since it causes them consternation, and a conflict of thier own personal compass, except where it affects others around them. Hence, unprovoked murder: WRONG AND BAD! Killing in self-defense: OK! :D That is also in the Ten Commandments,(other than KJV, if you go for the direct translation in the Torah), which says Thou shall not kill without just cause or provication, NOT just, Thou shall not kill.

Also, onto comparitive religions! :headbang: Christianity isn't reall all that bad as a lot of people make it out to be. The primciples are very nice: 'Be nice, don't do mean things, love everybody, and live in joy and peace with all of your surroundings.' Nothing wrong with that; hell, I think that it's a very noble aspiration. Hoewver comma there are a lot of people throughout history who have used what is basically a good and decent religion to further thier own twisted ends. King James and Pope Innocent II just sort of jump to the front of my mind, as well as Cardinal Torquemada. Come on, Christianity wasn't the first to create goodwill towards all men though! Quit acting like you did, and that you invented every moralistic idea. And quit stealing other people's religions! That just makes me mad for other reasons.

That's all.
Actually the brain accounts for all the functions you attributed to the soul. There are records of people sustaining brain damage to certain areas of the brain and depending on what part of the brain is injured they suffer poor descision making skills, changes in personality, changes in memory, etc.

Saying that if you beleive in science you cannot accept probabilities (chance) is retarded. Science deals in math. Probability is part of math and is a big part of some fields of physics.

You claim the brain is easy to understand. You are wrong. It's an expanding, but incomplete field of knowledge. Also, you claim that if we could build two identical brains and subject them to the same stimuli they would not behave the same way. You claim a "soul" accounts for the discrepancy. I disagree. First of all, the experiment has never been done. Secondly, I predict that if it is done, the result will be virtually identical behavior with minor differences caused by forces beyond our control (chance).


I won't comment on your analysis of morals because it bores me, but everything you said prior to that was either an unsupported assertion, or just plain wrong.

I can call you a religeous nutjob? Where does religeon enter into the equation? I'll just call you a nutjob.

First, you equate morals with religeon. They are two separate entities which rarely go together. If you ask all the altar boys with sore bums, all the natives who were "converted" by missionaries and all the "martyrs" of the latest Jihad if religeon represents morality they would give you a different answer. Religeon is just unhealthy self righteousness. Religeon has single handedly kept society in the dark ages, and prevented the evolution of the human species.

Consider this: how many wars have been fought over religeon? and how many wars have been fought over girls in skimpy clothes? Hmmmm. There seems to be quite a gap between them. The worst part about it is that the religous use their beliefs to justify their attrocities, completely ignoring reality. If I beat a guy up to steal his wallet so I can feed my family I am immoral. If I beat him up so he will believe in my god, I am saving his immortal soul.

Now what this girl did is terrible, but I do not feel it is a reflection of some lack of morals in society. This girl clearly had some issues. Maybe her father would have beaten her if he knew she was pregnant. Maybe she was afraid to be a mother. Maybe she had lousy parents that didn't teach her the value of life. Whatever her thinking, the fact remains she is just a child and she made a mistake. Children have been doing this forever. Wearing long skirts, praying to "god" and saving yourself for marriage will not make you any less prone to do something stupid.

You would be wise to open your eyes a little bit to the world you live in, instead of burrying your head in some bible that feeds it nothing but fairytales from long ago.

Either way, the dead baby loses. What a grand step for society.
Early on in the pregnancy there is no baby. It's an undifferentiated mass of stem cells. Later organs start to develop, but a baby with a brain the size of a rat's is entitled to no more consideration than a rat. Humans are defined by their mental and emotional capacity. If you don't agree, protest against appendectomies. That's human tissue being killed too. It has no less mental function than a 3 week old fetus.

Conception.
Show me a soul and I'll beleive you.

First Post!

Sperm and Egg are just physical components, if they're seperated then well, there's no where for the soul to reside, once the egg is fertilized, there is a place for the soul to reside. So long as neither come in contact, there's no vessel for the soul, just two seperate components.

Once there's a fertilized egg any form of abortion is murder because you're destroying the physical shell for the soul. While the soul remains, the shell is dead, therefore the soul has no where to go and returns to its creator.

At the only instance where abortion might be necessary is when the mother's health is at risk for having the child, that of course is a last resort. Because not only would possibly the child die, but the mother could possibly die too.
Where in the human body does the soul reside? In the brain? If so a fetus doesn't gain a sould at conception because there's no brain. In the entire body? If so then does a man who loses his arm also lose part of his soul? Are you talking entirely out of your ass?

Not individually, but you as a whole person. You could get an arm knocked off or a leg, but you'd still have a place for the soul to go, what ever is left of you.

EDIT//

Chromosomes only control the functions and development of the shell (Your physical body), not the soul.
What about identical twins who split long after conception? Do they have to share a soul?

Show me a soul and I'll beleive you.
I have an extra in my pocket if you want to see ... got a bit of lint on it and a dime stuck in it.
But all and all it is mostly alright

This isn't something that can be scientifically proven, and it is silly of you to ask. However, it reasonably follows, as I'll show.

A body either does or does not have a soul -- it's a binary equation. Ergo, the soul MUST enter the body at a particular, clear-cut point. There are small variations in the age at which a unborn infant will develop organs, etc., and these aren't binary equations -- a heart doesn't grow in an instant.

There is only one such point in pregnancy (even birth takes a manner of minutes) -- conception. A child either has or has not be conceived; there's no 'in-between'. Thus, it follows that the soul enters at the point of conception.
Since you cannot provide any evidence of a soul existing, why should we assume anyone has one? If nobody has a soul, then it obviously does not enter the body. Let's assume a soul exists. Who are you to say it doesn't grow like an organ. Let's face it. People change as they grow up. They're not the same person at 20 that they were at 5. Oh, and before you ask me to disprove a soul, I need you to disprove my pet T Rex.

If you believe in a higher power then that's where. If not, well, keep looking. There's nothing out there that says this is the absolute answer, it's just the one I think works out pretty darn well. I think it goes without saying that people do have something with the characteristics of a soul, otherwise how would we think? A good question would be, why do I see things, feel like I have a presence and why do I sense with everything that I've known of (ears, tongue, skin, eyes, nose, etc.) since I first realized I existed. I guess another way to think about it is, what is being?

It's sometimes difficult to understand one's self and sometimes takes other people to get the right answers. The same thing can probably be said about ourselves as humans, we can't fully understand ourselves, it takes someone else to do it for us.
We think by the use of our brain. Damage to the brain can prevent us from thinking, or alter our thinking depending on the extent of the damage and the location within the brain.

Do you trust that the chair you're probably sitting in will hold you up? But meanwhile you don't really know if it will? Might there be a problem with the chair? You could go and solve this problem mathematically but how do you know those are wrong.

It's all about faith, whatever you believe in.
I've conducted the experiment. The test chair worked out quite nicely.

Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

No, I call you a eunuch.

Oh well. Woe is me. Woe is me for believing in a fallacy...

Now of course the thing I'd like you to prove is who you are in terms of being? Only a series of chemical reactions occuring in your brain? Or something else?
I am a series of chemical reactions. When I added certain other chemicals to my brain, LSD, Psilocibin, THC, Cocaine, Xanax, Valium, Certain Opiates, MDMA, and the legal stuff I've done, the chemical balance in my brain was altered, and I was different. I saw the world differently, processed information differently, behaved differently, etc. Since these substances have been shown to effect soulless creatures, dogs, rabbits, etc. Then we can be sure that they were only acting on the chemicals in my brain, rather than magically effecting my soul. All these observations lead to the conclusion that I am a product of the programms running in a biological computer called a brain.

Of course you wouldn't because it's not likely to happen, but can it?
Sure, over time pigs might evolve wings, or perhaps just the ability to jump really high and far in order to simulate flight.

Did you know if I was a kangaroo, I couldn't be the postman?
Why not? You'd have a built in mail sack.

I have an extra in my pocket if you want to see ... got a bit of lint on it and a dime stuck in it.
But all and all it is mostly alright
Wanna sell it? I know a guy who buys them. Pays top dollar.

Wanna sell it? I know a guy who buys them. Pays top dollar.
Sure I could use a dollar

By the way what is the difference between a normal dollar and a top dollar?

This isn't something that can be scientifically proven, and it is silly of you to ask. However, it reasonably follows, as I'll show.

A body either does or does not have a soul -- it's a binary equation. Ergo, the soul MUST enter the body at a particular, clear-cut point. There are small variations in the age at which a unborn infant will develop organs, etc., and these aren't binary equations -- a heart doesn't grow in an instant.

There is only one such point in pregnancy (even birth takes a manner of minutes) -- conception. A child either has or has not be conceived; there's no 'in-between'. Thus, it follows that the soul enters at the point of conception.

there is only one moment that a heart starts beating. a human either does have a functioning heart or it doesn't. maybe this first beat is the point at which the soul is linked to the body.

there is only one moment when the liver starts to function. a human being either has a functioning live, or it doesn't. maybe the point at which the liver starts to function is the point at which the soul enters the body.

there is only one point at which a human will take its first breath. a human being either takes a first breath or it doesn't - perhaps this is the point at which a soul enters the human body.

all these are single instances that happen only once in a human life. any of these could be the so-called 'binary equations' that you talk of.

Sure I could use a dollar

By the way what is the difference between a normal dollar and a top dollar?
For soul sales and redemption go to www.hell.com Not the easiest site to navigate, but what the hell?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

holy shit, I'd hafta say everybody cares about life as well as rights. But callin out liberals that kinda crosses the line I mean it should be a woman's choice. Sure the kid may grow up to cure cancer or rule the world, but that is if everything goes right, and knowing life, life never goes according to plan. but planning a life on an if is just not right, a person who can't support a child shouldn't and if that kid leads a shitty life, was it all worth it? NO.
So please go back to eating apple pie baked by your minority house worker, go play baseball with dad, walk spot around the block to meet Mary for ice cream, whatever you do, but leave the Liberals alone, you inbred conservative douche.

MORE PROOF THE SOUTH IS ALL RELATED:
You'll never guess which pair running the country is related.
http://landing.msn.ancestry.com/famoustree/strange/bush/tree.aspx?SourceCode=12070

holy shit, I'd hafta say everybody cares about life as well as rights. But callin out liberals that kinda crosses the line I mean it should be a woman's choice. Sure the kid may grow up to cure cancer or rule the world, but that is if everything goes right, and knowing life, life never goes according to plan. but planning a life on an if is just not right, a person who can't support a child shouldn't and if that kid leads a shitty life, was it all worth it? NO.
So please go back to eating apple pie baked by your minority house worker, go play baseball with dad, walk spot around the block to meet Mary for ice cream, whatever you do, but leave the Liberals alone, you inbred conservative douche.

MORE PROOF THE SOUTH IS ALL RELATED:
You'll never guess which pair running the country is related.
http://landing.msn.ancestry.com/famoustree/strange/bush/tree.aspx?SourceCode=12070

best site ever:

www.fuckthesouth.com

best site ever:

www.fuckthesouth.com
Nice rant.

Stupid Libs7BLACK

You idiot liberals. I garauntee that I am much more intelligent than you. You put down the South like you live here. Tell me the truth, have you? The thing about the South is, people down here are trustworthy, honest, and POLITE. Screw New York, everyone there is an ASSHOLE. Kiss my white southern ass your Northern LIBERALS. Oh and by the way, 2nd place isnt too bad is it??? HA

(Im referring to the election you libreal MORONS)

Stupid Libs7BLACK

You idiot liberals. I garauntee that I am much more intelligent than you. You put down the South like you live here. Tell me the truth, have you? The thing about the South is, people down here are trustworthy, honest, and POLITE. Screw New York, everyone there is an ASSHOLE. Kiss my white southern ass your Northern LIBERALS. Oh and by the way, 2nd place isnt too bad is it??? HA

(Im referring to the election you libreal MORONS)

You may be far more intelligent than me, but i would never have made such glaring errors in my post. And what does 'Stupid libs 7 black' mean?

Stupid Libs7BLACK

You idiot liberals. I garauntee that I am much more intelligent than you. You put down the South like you live here. Tell me the truth, have you? The thing about the South is, people down here are trustworthy, honest, and POLITE. Screw New York, everyone there is an ASSHOLE. Kiss my white southern ass your Northern LIBERALS. Oh and by the way, 2nd place isnt too bad is it??? HA

(Im referring to the election you libreal MORONS)
Yeah, you're really bright, pal. People in NY seem rude because the're in a hurry and don't have time to chat. They actually stay productive, unlike you rednecks who have all day to hate those damn nigras and decide which cousin to screw. P.S. just because you rednecks breed faster and win the majority doesn't make you right. What will you do when the republicans cut taxes and services? The Northeast will be richer and you folks'll be broke.

They actually stay productive, unlike you rednecks who have all day to hate those damn nigras and decide which cousin to screw.

Yeah, by peddling drugs to people. California, the biggest liberal state, has the highest per-capita drug rate in the US. New York, don't even talk. The difference between the South and the North is that we are able to trust our neighbors. Calling people of Southern background inbred, racist assholes is the same as calling all New Englanders pussy-ass-liberal-fags. Sure, there are some in that area, but you look at it as though everyone is that way. Besides, why can you Northerners complain about the South? Every time I'm driving in my car, I see fucking New York, Ohio, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massuchetts, and the "pansies" from the North. There are so many of you who live half the year here and half back in your state. Obviously, you Northerners don't seem to find the South so bad afterall. So, if you don't like it, take your oversized, gas gussling, land boats for RVs that you can't drive back to where you came from.

edit: I may be from the South, but I didn't vote for Bush.

You idiot liberals. I garauntee that I am much more intelligent than you.

I guaranatee you are mistaken. I also guarantee that I can spell guarantee.

You put down the South like you live here. Tell me the truth, have you?

Yes - I live in the South, but not the South of your country.

The thing about the South is, people down here are trustworthy, honest, and POLITE. Screw New York, everyone there is an ASSHOLE.

"Northerners are assholes" said the polite Southerner?

Kiss my white southern ass your Northern LIBERALS. Oh and by the way, 2nd place isnt too bad is it??? HA

Yes - that's right, I'm sure. All the people in the North are liberal. You people sure like drawing arbitrary lines all over the place.

Yeah, by peddling drugs to people. California, the biggest liberal state, has the highest per-capita drug rate in the US. New York, don't even talk. The difference between the South and the North is that we are able to trust our neighbors. Calling people of Southern background inbred, racist assholes is the same as calling all New Englanders pussy-ass-liberal-fags. Sure, there are some in that area, but you look at it as though everyone is that way. Besides, why can you Northerners complain about the South? Every time I'm driving in my car, I see fucking New York, Ohio, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massuchetts, and the "pansies" from the North. There are so many of you who live half the year here and half back in your state. Obviously, you Northerners don't seem to find the South so bad afterall. So, if you don't like it, take your oversized, gas gussling, land boats for RVs that you can't drive back to where you came from.

edit: I may be from the South, but I didn't vote for Bush.
Drugs aren't necessarily evil. Plenty of people use them responsibly. Just like those legal drugs, alcohol, tobacco, and prozac.

I live in NJ and I can trust my neighbors too. I can go into the ghetto (and often do) and I know people there that I can trust.

Yes. We travel to your states. We meet you, and thus we know what we're complaining about. Some of you are OK, but some don't seem too swift. That's my opinion having spent time in N. Carolina, Florida, and Missouri.

Yeah, by peddling drugs to people. California, the biggest liberal state, has the highest per-capita drug rate in the US. New York, don't even talk. The difference between the South and the North is that we are able to trust our neighbors. Calling people of Southern background inbred, racist assholes is the same as calling all New Englanders pussy-ass-liberal-fags. Sure, there are some in that area, but you look at it as though everyone is that way. Besides, why can you Northerners complain about the South? Every time I'm driving in my car, I see fucking New York, Ohio, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massuchetts, and the "pansies" from the North. There are so many of you who live half the year here and half back in your state. Obviously, you Northerners don't seem to find the South so bad afterall. So, if you don't like it, take your oversized, gas gussling, land boats for RVs that you can't drive back to where you came from.

edit: I may be from the South, but I didn't vote for Bush.


I wonder what the truck pulling a trailer home gets for gas milage

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

Wow. You are just so full of love, mercy, and compassion aren't you?

I don't think you are a Christian nutjob at all. You are just a regular nutjub who is far more a spiritual disciple of the Pharisees than you are of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever been to the Bronx or lived without resources to help you with
hard choices in your life?

If you think this is an issue about how society has gone to hell because of thongs, then you are sheltered.

The good news is that you are 13.
Get the heck out of where ever you live and see how people who are different from you live and why they make the decisions that they do before you judge them.


I agree. you're only 13, man, cool it. I am 17, and just learning that I don't know everything about the world. I remember when I was 13, I was clueless. its a little early to be dedicating yourself hardcore to ANYTHING, and I am sure when I am 20 I will think that at 17 I knew nothing. calm down, and broaden your horizons.

I agree. you're only 13, man, cool it. I am 17, and just learning that I don't know everything about the world. I remember when I was 13, I was clueless. its a little early to be dedicating yourself hardcore to ANYTHING, and I am sure when I am 20 I will think that at 17 I knew nothing. calm down, and broaden your horizons.
and I remember being 17 ... I was about as clueless as I was at 13 lol

Stupid Libs7BLACK

You idiot liberals. I garauntee that I am much more intelligent than you. You put down the South like you live here. Tell me the truth, have you? The thing about the South is, people down here are trustworthy, honest, and POLITE. Screw New York, everyone there is an ASSHOLE. Kiss my white southern ass your Northern LIBERALS. Oh and by the way, 2nd place isnt too bad is it??? HA

(Im referring to the election you libreal MORONS)
Wow you sound so intelligent … tell us more :p

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

As sad as this story is it has nothing to do with short tops mini skirts or anything else except lack of education and/or choices.

Two children have sex and conceive a child, child is born in the dead of night, child who gave birth to child is scared and confused, gets rid of evidence as quickly as she can then everything goes pear shaped for her.

If sex education were properly taught in schools and contraception was readily available for all teenagers then maybe this sad little story would be just that....a story!

It's people like Alsaria that make the south look bad. I've spent enough time in California, Ohio, Michigan, Illnois, and Indiana. The people in Ohio are FAR more backwards, hick-ass, inbred what-nots than Florida. Drive-thru liquor stores; sounds like a great idea for that drunk driver on the go! genius. Oh sure, responsible people use them. Drugs are not necessarily evil, say that about crack cocaine, opium, meth, and what have you. Where is NASA located? Texas and Florida! Wow, they must be so ass backwards that they are ass-tronauts! How about leading medical research centers? I know of many WORLD renouned medical centers in Tampa alone. No doubt about it, trucks get lousy gas mileage, but they are at least practical, unlike a Suburban or Excursion for the daily commute to work.

It's people like Alsaria that make the south look bad. I've spent enough time in California, Ohio, Michigan, Illnois, and Indiana. The people in Ohio are FAR more backwards, hick-ass, inbred what-nots than Florida. Drive-thru liquor stores; sounds like a great idea for that drunk driver on the go! genius. Oh sure, responsible people use them. Drugs are not necessarily evil, say that about crack cocaine, opium, meth, and what have you. Where is NASA located? Texas and Florida! Wow, they must be so ass backwards that they are ass-tronauts! How about leading medical research centers? I know of many WORLD renouned medical centers in Tampa alone. No doubt about it, trucks get lousy gas mileage, but they are at least practical, unlike a Suburban or Excursion for the daily commute to work.
I was not talking about a pickup truck (hell I own one) but I dont think you will (like in my comment) see thoes pulling trailer houses.

(btw was making a joke ...) as for nasa DUH they always try to locate near the equater rotational velocity is the highest

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob

Hey Me too, cept 16.

It's people like Alsaria that make the south look bad. I've spent enough time in California, Ohio, Michigan, Illnois, and Indiana. The people in Ohio are FAR more backwards, hick-ass, inbred what-nots than Florida. Drive-thru liquor stores; sounds like a great idea for that drunk driver on the go! genius. Oh sure, responsible people use them. Drugs are not necessarily evil, say that about crack cocaine, opium, meth, and what have you. Where is NASA located? Texas and Florida! Wow, they must be so ass backwards that they are ass-tronauts! How about leading medical research centers? I know of many WORLD renouned medical centers in Tampa alone. No doubt about it, trucks get lousy gas mileage, but they are at least practical, unlike a Suburban or Excursion for the daily commute to work.
I know people who have used crack recreationally in their youth and gone on to lead productive lives. I myself have used heroin recreationally (not enough to develop a physical addiction) and am now illegal drug free and a usefull member of society. No, drugs aren't evil. They can cause harm, but so can almost anything.

Nasa is in Texas and Florida because 1 The northern parts of the country get snow and ice. No snow and ice means fewer launch delays due to weather. 2 Powerfull legislators wanted them there to bring money and jobs into the state. The scientists who work at NASA were educated in places like MIT. Are there any truly prestigious universities in the south?

Gee, you have leading medical research centers in Florida? Why put them near large groups of old people who need frequent medical treatment, and rich people who can afford to own homes in expensive resort towns? It just makes no sense.

Story time children

Morality, Religion and God are handcuffed together by the chain of Extremism. Along comes Enlightenment...

[E] Morality, you do not need this loser anymore. Let's go

[R] What rubbish! Religion and morality must go together so Religion can dictate to people what sort of morality to follow. If they don't then we can tell'em loads of scare stories about going to Hell to make'em listen to us. Ain't that right, Morality?

[M] Ummmm......

[E] Morality can be want it wants to be not just what you say, Religion. And as for your scare stories, there is such a place as Hell. Its here on Earth where your extremism and closed mind have caused nothing but 2000 years of religious wars and divisive conflict. You've built a hell in what could have been a heaven.

[R] You ungodly heathen! You are going straight to hell. I don't care what sort of person you are but because you oppose my narrow minded views I want you dead.

[M] NO HE'S RIGHT! TAKE THAT [punches Religion in the groin] AND THAT [kicks him]! THATS FOR ALL THESE CENTURIES OF LISTENING TO YOU AND YOU MUMBLING RUBBISH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE RELIGIOUS TO BE MORAL AND YOU DONT HAVE TO BE RELIGOUS TO BE A GOOD PERSON

[R] No! Don't go! Without you I'm nothing but a mumbling mythology without any real logic or evidence to back me up! I am nothing without you!

[E] Tough [unlocks the handcuffs]. Now we can build a better society, Morality. A society where no one is persecuted for different beliefs and where no one has to fear the sound of the Religious Gestapo marching down the streets.

[G] And I don't think I need you either, Religion. You see I don't need people to worship in cold churches for me. I don't need men to go to war and slaughter for me. I love all men equally whether they be turk, heathen or jew. All you do is turn my name into a byword for hatred and destruction. Love for me does not need religion: it just needs faith and goodness of heart. Perhaps you'll think before you use my book to justify your evil and villanious acts.

God, Morality and Enlightenment all walk away. Religion is left alone sobbing into the darkness that he created - the bitter hatred of fellow men.

Where are the condoms that could have prevented this?
They sell condoms in school?

They sell condoms in school?
They should have them available for free.

I don't really get your point. IMO, the problem is somewhere else:
1) the girl getting pregnant (stupid), what nowadays is certainly not a necessary outcome of having had sex
2) the girl hiding her pregnancy - what she certainly would not have done if her parents were minimally open to conversation about sex
3) the girl hiding labour (hmn, I am a mother myself and this seems incredibly unlikely. Are you sure this is real news?)
4) the girl throwing the baby out of the window (what a wonderful solution to her problem, get it out of sight)
5) the father (who apparently had disappeared throughout the whole pregnancy as he, as her family, paid so much attention to her they did not notice) taking the dead baby to the church (what for?)


...what about stop talking about how horrible sex is and start accepting it as part of life? Apparently, it could have saved the life of a baby (and the future of a 13 years old stupid girl, if that is worth anything)

The only way to experience labor and be able to hide it is to be under such extreme mental duress - such as being terrified to a far greater degree than whatever pains may be caused by the physicallity of what is happening - that the mind basically disassociates itself from physical reality. It happens most often to victims of certain types of violent crime and is a mental defense to escape the horror of what is being done to them. Personally, I am horrified at the implications that the girl was so afraid of being pregnant that her mind had to resort to that sort of insanity.

Wow. You are just so full of love, mercy, and compassion aren't you?

I don't think you are a Christian nutjob at all. You are just a regular nutjub who is far more a spiritual disciple of the Pharisees than you are of Jesus Christ.

Geez. First of all, I have to agree with "violets and kitties" here. Somebody needs to calm down. Yelling at people doesn't help at all. Secondly, I have to go with Holy Paradise that our society has gone downhill. However, I wouldn't blame it on the objects(thongs, miniskirts, etc.), but more on the people's mindset. In the sixties era, many people went to church whether they believed it or not, just so they could keep a good reputation with their neighbors. Incidentally, that made for most of the "questionable" actions going on in secret. Now a days(if I may use that expression), people are taught to be "tolerant", and to accept anything and everything as acceptable behavior. Lastly, I will say that I find the article at the beginning of this thread quite a ready made example of my views on sex. When a thirteen and a fifteen year old are having sex, I find a problem with that. Sex, in my view, and from what I can gather from my observations, is meant to be a lifetime thing. Even without the Bible to put things into perspective, notice that, generally, when two people start sleeping together, just for the sake of it, they will eventually break up. When they break up, all that they have shared with each other is gone, destroyed along with the relationship. I know that somebody will point out that many, many people don't feel that way at all. I counter with the fact that people have been desensitized. Sex is nothing special any more. It is like candy, you have it when you can get it. After you do it enough, there is nothing new left in you to share with your mate, and it becomes just like every other time. When you are fifteen and thirteen, as someone mentioned earlier, you are going to change, dramatically. "Testing the water" at that age, you aren't going to draw it out at all. How many young teenagers do you know that concentrate on anything until they are twenty even? So, my conclusion is that pre-marital sex, especially at that age, will in 99.99% of the cases, lead to an emotional heartbreak or desensitizing, or sometimes even a physical disaster(such as illustrated in the news article). And that, Ladies and Gentlemen is my personal spiel.

Oh, and by the way, after noticing all the Northern/Southern arguements, it makes me glad to be an Illinoisan. :p

1) Hollywood doesn't buy the kids' clothes. Parents do. Parents are people and are therefore many of them are idiots.

I know many girls who don't where shorts because the only ones they can find are either VERY short or they are granny shorts.

Sex happens, you're not going to stop kids from having sex. Maybe teaching in schools contraception instead of abstinence they'd at least be safe about it, get less diseases and viruses, we'd have less pregnancies, and less sorrow and disgust on the ten o'clock news. The fact is teenagers are going to have sex no matter what you, we, or the government says. I do not agree with all of the sexuality in the media aimed at young girls and boys but if one thinks about it, you go to France and nudity is on the billboards, Porn in a video store is right next to Thomas the Train and Bob the Builder yet we do not hear about Teenagers killing their babies on the news nightly. No, that's just here in America where we can't tell kids about condoms and birth control in school.

hey did you ever think of becoming Amish?

and there is nothing wrong with :fluffle: its fun

Holy Paradise, hey, chill a bit. i agree with most of the stuff your saying, but don't just dissmiss every thing anyone else says that you don't agree with. If you give their views no respect, do you think they are going to give your views any respect. I do think they're wrong, but give them a bit of respect. And too all you liberals, please, please understand that we have different views to you and that you should respect them.

i my self am a Christian and i think society has become immoral. Thats my view, based on my religion and the bible. I also think that abortion is wrong because although you aren't killing a person who is alive and breathing, you are killing a potential person. Oh.. and scientific reasearch now says that fetuses are consctious after somthing like 6 months.

The reason about the clothes is that they are designed to attract men sexually, not just for warmth and to cover your private area.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Isn't a man responsible for his own fucking cock? Oh NOES... the halter top made me do it!!!@111BBQ111 :eek:

What about men who do things to attract women sexually. Should I have the right to demand that men who get me all hot and bothered shroud themselves from head to to in loose fitting burlap sacks?

The thing about the South is, people down here are trustworthy, honest, and POLITE. Screw New York, everyone there is an ASSHOLE. Kiss my white southern ass your Northern LIBERALS. Oh and by the way, 2nd place isnt too bad is it??? HA

(Im referring to the election you libreal MORONS)

Alsaria says: People of the south are polite, assholes! :D
I'll have to remember that! Hopefully there are sensible southerners too!

But I would blame the parents. A thirteen year old is still a child she shouldn't be too blamed for this. It was a stupid thing she did but she's just a child with minimum life experience. The parents should have been more strict with the girl. I don't think she deserve prison she need psychological help. And I still can't understand the parents. She hid pregnancy with a coat? What kind of parents would let a child of thirteen to were coats all the time?

I was not talking about a pickup truck (hell I own one) but I dont think you will (like in my comment) see thoes pulling trailer houses.

No, those pick-em-up trucks are for pulling our trailers that have our cows, horses, and pigs we fuck, and of course, our NASCARs :D

Having cancer, diabetes, neurological conditions, or other ailments and being old is not the only outcome. Young people can have cancer too. That's why the newspapers show kids from Africa, India, and where-have-you coming for help here.

Being desensitized is a good thing.

Basically, eye for an eye does not apply to an unborn child. A simple fine is sufficient. The priviledge of eye for an eye is reserved for offenses against a human. This wasn't his best arguement by far even, but its the only one I remember off the top of my head without him around.
Involuntary manslaughter is a far cry from premeditated murder.

I don't want to have sex until I get married! I want to be a good person! I don't want to have sex yet! I'd rather eat dog shit, literally, then give up my virginity before marriage.

R E L A X :cool:

Does anyone else find it strange that if a doctor did what she did, he'd be aplauded by left-wing America?

Does anyone else find it strange that if a doctor did what she did, he'd be aplauded by left-wing America?
Killed a child?
Certainly not. I haven't heard anybody talk about abortion after birth, as it is sort of an oxymoron.

Really, you must open your eyes and see that both sides have a point here.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

How Christian of you.

I know, I also believe abortion is okay. But only in the case of rape, incest, or death of mother at childbirth.
For once, a liberal on this site has reasonably explained their point to me, and those points are the ones I respect. Oh the Roe vs. Wade thing was just out of pure anger.So it's wrong to murder unborn babies unless their dad's are assholes?

Humans suck. I think we should kill all humans and then all these moral problems would be solved. :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

Does anyone else find it strange that if a doctor did what she did, he'd be aplauded by left-wing America?
Are you retarded? Nobody applauds infanticide. Abortion in the early stages is not infanticide because there's no infant involved!!!!!

How Christian of you.

I agree. I dislike both abortion and liberalism, but conducting yourself like a rabid hyena is hardly a viable solution. Neither will you win any to your side if you act in this manner. You are much more effective if you conduct yourself in a calm, coherent way. Look at Johnathan Edwards(not the vp candidate). Now, I'm not saying you should be a religious extremist like he was, but one ofthe reasons he was so effective was that he could calmly and logically explain to people why they were going to Hell, without once raising his voice. Once again this is not an endorsement of Hell-mongering, just a case study of effective persuasion/ public speaking.

Humans suck. I think we should kill all humans and then all these moral problems would be solved. <-Removed useless smilies->


Already way ahead of you.

Oh, story is a fake, but that was said on like page 2.
Quite frankly, anyone, espically Christians... because they're the only ones who've tried so far, who tries to press their "morals" on me, is gonna get a viloent reaction.
Live with it. Life sucks, and you can't force people to believe as you do, or do as you do. Last time I checked, those were the basis of Christ's teachings.

But what do I know, I learned all I know about Christianity from Jesus Christ Superstar.... or so my religion class thinks.

So um yea, fake story, even if it was real, either that girls parents need to be publicly tortured and shot, or she does... or both?

Erm, surely this is an argument for
1) Sex education
2) Abortion
...?

My smilies aren't useless.! How dare you call my smilies useless! :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

Erm, surely this is an argument for
1) Sex education
2) Abortion
...?
That's how I saw it.

Alright commies, we'll ply it your way.

Show me the specific density of an idea. How does it affect the refraction of light? What are it's subcomponents? Can you show me?

Radically enough, everything that is manmade came from an idea. However, since you cannot see the actual idea itself, only the results, then ideas must not exist. !!!POOF!!! There goes human society! bye bye.

Even more ludacris: Show me an atom. Pick one up and show it to me. Can't see one with your naked eye, can you? Oh, we have plenty of evidence built up that supports them, and can even sort of guess as to how they look, thanks to certain reactions of elemental forces that we really can't see either, only the effects of such, but YOU CAN'T SEE THEM WITH YOUR OWN TWO EYES, CAN YOU? Based upon your previous supposition, they don't exist.
<soft sucking sound as existance implodes in on itself>

Damn.

Let's try another one. Gravity. We've been able to measure it's effects, but nobody can really explain it. Not even Einstein. Hell, he even accidentally disproved it once! So, what makes gravity work? Little gravitons? Or subatomic worker monkies that pull really hard on stuff? Well? I'm waiting...

I mean seriously, if you can't see it, then it doesn't exist? What a wierd conception or reality that would be. I mean, if taken to an extreme, then you, commies, personally, create the universe as you percive thingswith your own senses. If you've never seen it, how can you possibly believe that it might exist without some sort of tangible supporting evidence. Ever seen a platypus? They might not exist either.

What a rude form of debate you bring to the table: show me. Show Me. SHOW ME! That's the kind of shit that got Copernicus excommunicated, and forestalled the advance of the Rennisance by about 250 years. To be perfetly honest, I feel kind of sorry for you. You must lead a very hollow, unfilled existance if that is the only way that you can experience it; by tactile response.

is this kid from westboro baptist church or something?
I could have a field day with this mysogynist, bigoted, sexist, chauvanist, extremist, ignorant, misinformed idiot.
as it is i just feel a bit sad.....women are not out tempt men by wearing little clothing, and even if they are....how does that reflect on men if they can't control themselves in front of a bit of leg? personally i would be offended if someone suggested seeing cleavage would induce me to rape or suchlike!
:confused:

Originally posted by Sdaeriji
Prove it. Prove that "the soul" exists.

Wow that bullshit makes me proud to be a conservative you f***’n nazi

Originally Posted by Holy Paradise
I don't want to have sex until I get married! I want to be a good person! I don't want to have sex yet! I'd rather eat dog shit, literally, then give up my virginity before marriage.

………….. or not.

Involuntary manslaughter is a far cry from premeditated murder.

on what grounds?

Did you know that in Russia they throw the babies in the trash can if they have been aborted but they are still alive when they are born? I've seen the pictures. Call me a sociopath. My friends call me that too.

you fucking sociopath

Nah Theologian Theory, he might go to this particular chruch, though:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org

you fucking sociopath

was that really necessary?

yes it was

Prompt Criticality, I checked that church of your's.
I'm not a believer myself and thank goodness I live in Finland where there are no such religious organizations.
After I saw the site, I'm pleased we have all the nazis and satan-worshippers back here instead of that kind of lunatics.
God praise America.

Involuntary manslaughter is a far cry from premeditated murder.

So should there be levels of punishment for abortion? Like if you're a few months preggo and possibly lose you're job or something else in life goes askew, then decide to give the ol' stomach a battering because you can't handle the pressure... 2nd degree murder then? Surely not premeditated. Same as seeing the ol' GF/wife in bed with someone else and offing a few of the participants, can you have an abortion crime "in the heat of passion"?

My own sick self would just love to hear about the field day the ambulance chasers would have with that one. :D

I didn't know that killing an embrio is a murder.

I didn't know that killing an embrio is a murder.
cant be ... let me again repost

murder = ILLIGAL killing

if it is legal it is not murder

Alright commies, we'll ply it your way.

Show me the specific density of an idea. How does it affect the refraction of light? What are it's subcomponents? Can you show me?

Radically enough, everything that is manmade came from an idea. However, since you cannot see the actual idea itself, only the results, then ideas must not exist. !!!POOF!!! There goes human society! bye bye.

Even more ludacris: Show me an atom. Pick one up and show it to me. Can't see one with your naked eye, can you? Oh, we have plenty of evidence built up that supports them, and can even sort of guess as to how they look, thanks to certain reactions of elemental forces that we really can't see either, only the effects of such, but YOU CAN'T SEE THEM WITH YOUR OWN TWO EYES, CAN YOU? Based upon your previous supposition, they don't exist.
<soft sucking sound as existance implodes in on itself>

Damn.

Let's try another one. Gravity. We've been able to measure it's effects, but nobody can really explain it. Not even Einstein. Hell, he even accidentally disproved it once! So, what makes gravity work? Little gravitons? Or subatomic worker monkies that pull really hard on stuff? Well? I'm waiting...

I mean seriously, if you can't see it, then it doesn't exist? What a wierd conception or reality that would be. I mean, if taken to an extreme, then you, commies, personally, create the universe as you percive thingswith your own senses. If you've never seen it, how can you possibly believe that it might exist without some sort of tangible supporting evidence. Ever seen a platypus? They might not exist either.

What a rude form of debate you bring to the table: show me. Show Me. SHOW ME! That's the kind of shit that got Copernicus excommunicated, and forestalled the advance of the Rennisance by about 250 years. To be perfetly honest, I feel kind of sorry for you. You must lead a very hollow, unfilled existance if that is the only way that you can experience it; by tactile response.
I can show what parts of the brain are active when thinking up an idea given the right instruments. That supports the theory that all ideas are created in the brain, and that they are composed of a pattern of neurons firing.
Actually seeing something isn't necessary if you can detect and measure it with instruments. Got a soul meter on you?
My life isn't hollow. I have friends and family, I have intellectual curiosity, I have plenty to keep me occupied.

I didn't know that killing an embrio is a murder.

Nah, just good clean family fun.

Origianly psted by Holy paradise

Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

You really give conservatives a bad name. I’m a conservative too, but you are just a fascist little shit that needs to calm your prude ass down a notch. Are you gay or something?

Here’s a message to the liberals and the rest of the USA

Lefties- stop making up bullshit remarks and excuses of why W. is in the white house (e.g. the only reason he’s in is because the majority of the USA is dumb southerners and the republicans cheated their way in). Also shut the hell up about the Abu Gahrib (I spelled that wrong I think) prison scandal. That isn’t a 1/1000th of how bad the insurgents are treating our troops

USA- Maybe we shouldn’t have gone into Iraq, but now that were in and the insurgents are mutilating American and European prisoners we should support the troops until they get out safely so we can stop making the soldiers jobs so difficult and making them feel like they are out there dying for nothing. Doesn’t seeing two US soldiers ripped apart, burned, shot, sliced open, decapitated

and pinned up on a bridge for the world to see piss you off or is it just me

Hey criticality, Do you beleive every idea that's presented to you without evidence? If so, why didn't you drink the kool aid with Jim Jones?

sorry about that- some of the writing got cut off

That news is sickening... however...

Your tirade about "morality" says more about you than it does about "society." These types of horrific events (and worse) have been happening all over the world since the beginning of time. You blame modernity, the way that women dress, and premarital sex. There are a lot of people that would agree with the way you think in Saudi Arabia, where they control morality by supressing free speech, covering women from head to toe, and legislating morality. They go to all this trouble and still life is no more sacred there than it is here. The answer is not easier abortions, nor is it condemnation, it is in free communication within families and moving toward policies and mentalities as a country that value families and value life. I pray that when you get married and have children that your daughter doesn't come home pregnant one day. If she does, will she be afraid to tell you? Or would she be more inclined to hide her pregnancy to avoid your moralistic tirade? Remember, not everything is black and white, least of all morality.

If she'd gone ahead and gotten an abortion early on no infant would have been killed and she'd be a free girl today.

I agree with commie. What a tragedy.

Adoption? Do you know how many children remain in orphanages without being adopted at all?
Try condoms instead - they help preventing STDs as well

Yeah, try telling that to the 2% of the population where condoms failed them.

Actually, compared to the 1960's, today's crime rate has dropped, some even say as much as 20%. The difference is that the media has to overdramatize EVERY little incident that occurs. "Your next door neighbor is a pedophile, serial killing mass murderer" BS. A black man breaks into a white man's house, threatens to kill the white man's wife. The white man shoots and kills the black man, suddenly it's a hate crime solely because there are 2 different races involved.

You are a thirteen year old boy, and you dont like girls wearing revealing clothes? Whats the matter with you?

Yeah, try telling that to the 2% of the population where condoms failed them.
I think that we would have no issues finding homes for all adoptees if we reduced unwanted pregnancies by 98 percent

Actually, compared to the 1960's, today's crime rate has dropped, some even say as much as 20%. The difference is that the media has to overdramatize EVERY little incident that occurs. A black man breaks into a white man's house, threatens to kill the white man's wife. The white man shoots and kills the black man, suddenly it's a hate crime solely because there are 2 different races involved.

But it wouldnt be a hate crime if that black man shot the white man.

Crime increased since the 60's but has dropped dramatically since the 80's. The US is still first in murder rate though. But not highest in crime rate. Meaning in places like Sweden, a guy will steal three cars, in the US a guy will take a gun and shoot 4 people.

Yes those precious second ammendment rights.

You are a thirteen year old boy, and you dont like girls wearing revealing clothes? Whats the matter with you?
Is kind of wierd is it not? I think he probably does but likes to preach ... drooling privatly

I think that we would have no issues finding homes for all adoptees if we reduced unwanted pregnancies by 98 percent

Oh, no, I was being sarcastic lol.

Im saying how good condoms work nowadays.

Since two % is a little amount.

Sorry though, I guess it wasnt very obvious that I was being sarcastic.

they help preventing STDs as well

Key word HELP. There is nothing you can do to prevent STD's short of not having sex. I think I can say this for just about everyone, it's worth the risk.

Yeah, try telling that to the 2% of the population where condoms failed them.
So reducing the ammount of unwanted pregnancies and STDs by 98% isn't worthwhile?

Actually, compared to the 1960's, today's crime rate has dropped, some even say as much as 20%. The difference is that the media has to overdramatize EVERY little incident that occurs. "Your next door neighbor is a pedophile, serial killing mass murderer" BS. A black man breaks into a white man's house, threatens to kill the white man's wife. The white man shoots and kills the black man, suddenly it's a hate crime solely because there are 2 different races involved.
Some studies have linked the lower crime rate to more unwanted pregnancies being aborted. Unwanted kids don't grow up abused and neglected. Abuse and neglect is a contributing factor to violent crime.

Some studies have linked the lower crime rate to more unwanted pregnancies being aborted. Unwanted kids don't grow up abused and neglected. Abuse and neglect is a contributing factor to violent crime.

(caveman voice) killing babies...GOOD! ;)

The scientific data all says that that a fetus is alive. If it is alive, then DNA would prove it is human. Doesn't that, by definition make it a human life.


Modern science states that a creature can not be alive unless able to live under its own power.

If DNA was enough to make something human, then why aren't we protecting the defenseless appendix? Each year thousands of them are cut out people's bodies and thrown in the trash.

The appendix for humans is worthless. It is a sack containing powerful (something) that can digest plant matter. Since we are omnivorous and don't use plants for sustenence, it has no purpose. But, considering its powerful (acids?) when it bursts, will kill the person. That's why when people have a strange horrible pain on the side, better get to a doctor to make sure the appendix is not about to blow.

The appendix for humans is worthless. It is a sack containing powerful (something) that can digest plant matter. Since we are omnivorous and don't use plants for sustenence, it has no purpose. But, considering its powerful (acids?) when it bursts, will kill the person. That's why when people have a strange horrible pain on the side, better get to a doctor to make sure the appendix is not about to blow.
But it's human life. You just can't take a human life.

here it comes:

you are a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob

Aye, 'tis true.

I'm a teenager. I had sex today. At no point did this lead to me commiting murder, on account of the fact that I'm not an idiot or a lunatic.

It's not A human life. It is a part of you. When you discharge semen, you are killing hundreds of millions of potential children. So what? Humans, like any animal are disposable. If I, you, the president, or even a billion people die, so what? The earth won't spin off its axis or explode.

If DNA was enough to make something human, then why aren't we protecting the defenseless appendix? Each year thousands of them are cut out people's bodies and thrown in the trash.

Hehe.

Condoms, male has responsibility, woman weren't cautious they were oppressed, you are a 13 year old conservative nutjob. And you forgot another friend, stupidity. Stupid don't use protection. There ya go.

You really give conservatives a bad name. I’m a conservative too, but you are just a fascist little shit that needs to calm your prude ass down a notch. Are you gay or something?

Here’s a message to the liberals and the rest of the USA

Lefties- stop making up bullshit remarks and excuses of why W. is in the white house (e.g. the only reason he’s in is because the majority of the USA is dumb southerners and the republicans cheated their way in). Also shut the hell up about the Abu Gahrib (I spelled that wrong I think) prison scandal. That isn’t a 1/1000th of how bad the insurgents are treating our troops

USA- Maybe we shouldn’t have gone into Iraq, but now that were in and the insurgents are mutilating American and European prisoners we should support the troops until they get out safely so we can stop making the soldiers jobs so difficult and making them feel like they are out there dying for nothing. Doesn’t seeing two US soldiers ripped apart, burned, shot, sliced open, decapitated
I AGREE :sniper:

Most people might think that this is a good reason to end abortion. For me it's quite the opposite. Abortion should be legalized and government controlled so that babies can be killed in an early stage in a humane manner, instead of simply allowing them to be born then murdered by their mothers.

Why stop at this "humane" stuff? All it takes is one chunk of brass to do the job. Once that bullet displaces your brain, it's lights out. Much cheaper too. :)

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.
Yeah, man. Why can't we go back to the good old days where you could fuck your slave?

BTW, once you hit puberty in five years, you won't be some against girls wearing revealing clothing. Unless they're fat.

I haven't read much of the 30-page thread, but I will make my comments on the first post, I hope I'm not being too redundant.

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).
First of all, what kind of screwed up parents wouldn't notice that their 13-year-old daughter is pregnant? You said that she didn't abort the foetus, but waited until she gave birth to the neonate naturally, so she went through all of pregnancy. She must not have very attentive, and quite negligent parents. And, though I certainly do not think what she did was right, I also do not believe that the killing of a neonate, especially not one just-born (I don't know what the scientific name for that is), should count as murder. In fact, I'm not sure if she should really be charged for much, though there probably should be some type of penalty. I know there are some that say "But it's a human baby!", but that argument just doesn't flow with me. It has no experience and no chance at life. It is just a bundle of cells at that point. Sure, it has great potential, but I just do not see it the same as killing a 2-year-old or killing a 15-year-old. Both of those certainly would count as murder, in my opinion, but I just don't view a just-born neonate as the same. It has no experience and there are not yet emotional attachments. This, naturally, only counts if both parents consent, I do not think that a mother or father killing the neonate against what the other wants is right. Or someone else killing it. So obviously I am only considering the mother. However, the death of the neonate must also be painless. If it is put through a painful death, than that too is wrong. I just can't make up my mind...I see both sides of it, and can't put my money on either. I ranted on about one, but that is just because I know that's the minority opinion. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I change my mind. So now I guess now I was just playing devil's advocate.

-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-
This, however, I don't agree with. Morals are not eliminated, there are just evolving. What you advocate are conservative Judeo-Christian values, not morals in general. If you hadn't noticed, the people who support social welfare are the left-wingers, the same ones who support abortion. I fully agree with that evangelical (*gasp*) on the Daily Show. I was stunned--I didn't know that there were actual evangelicals that weren't rabid Jesus maniacs out there. It refreshed the thought in my mind that I'm not against religion, just religionists. But he showed that people's values are just screwed up when we consider things like teen sexuality, which is actually biologically natural, and obviously expected by the body given the hormonal surge during adolesence, and poverty.

Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.
¡Dios mio! Girls no longer hide their bodies behind veils of fabric! Huh, this is starting to sound a whole lot like Islamic burkas... I think it is wonderful that people are beinf so open about sexuality, I believe thatis extremely healthy for society. Europe has certainly moved past this stage, they are more mature culturally than America. This is shown by, to name a few examples, acceptance of women's breasts (Europeans: <topless girl> Wonderful waves on the ocean today, eh?; Americans: <topless girl> OOOH! BOOBIES!!!) and secularity. And I know Japan has always been indifferent to nudity, though the recent westernisation has affected that a slight bit. Really, I think you trying to force women to hide their bodies sounds a lot like burkas. I believe that if you think about it for a bit, you'll see the relation. Public nudity is legal in the Federation of Gnostikos!

Why even red-necks [or 13 yr old religous nutjobs] should support abortion.

1) Most people who oppose Abortion are in favour of red-gun-control laws, including the right to shoot at trespassers upon their private property.
2) The body is a person's most private property

Then, we can adjust the word shoot at to equal kill - If my gun runs out of ammo, I should be able to use my gladius (short sword - like a long knife. Long shiny sharp thing. ) - right?

Then, if your body is your personal property, any living thing, regardless of consciousness or intelligence or sentience, you have the right to destroy it. If a woman choses to have this done in a sterile operation rather than with a gun, all the more power to her.

If my gun runs out of ammo, I should be able to use my gladius (short sword - like a long knife. Long shiny sharp thing. ) - right?
No, I would probably permit nihontou, but gladii are pretty sucky (which I wouldn't really classify as a long knife...but close enough).

I should be able to use my gladius
Be a man, use a sledge! None of that Asian crap! It takes a true man to kill some one that way

Meh. Last I heard, there's nothing in the bible specifically saying that early term abortions are wrong. I recall something about it being a Hebrew philosophy that you aren't a living thing until born. Sorta rules out any religious mumbo jumbo unless I was told wrong.

In the real, non-magical world, abortions, while not neccissarily something to be proud of (they generally represent you having screwed up at some point, after all, kind of like throwing up after getting drunk), they're a better option than overpopulating the world with people who were raised in orphanages or under bad living conditions: tends to increase the averages of the poor kid growing up to be a serious waste of flesh (Mind you, I'm well aware that many people come out of such situations better, but people tend to pass traits on to their kids).

Frankly, you want the real reason so many organizations preach anti-abortion along with a lack of sex education?

Democracy. (And the general 'power of numbers' situation)

Think about it.

With democracy, the power is in the hands of the people who're too ignorant to use protection or to abstain when they thus refuse safe sex, who have nothing better to do after work than reproduce, and who've been scared by the church in to not getting abortions.

Educated people have the dubious honor of having better things to do, on average, than to pop kids out like rabbits. The end result is that we have reduced overall power, despite being more relatively important (Billy Bob and his sixteen kids are important, mind you, someone has to milk the cows, but they're not going to compare to an individual who cures a disease or the like, and even a novel writer or the rare truly powerful poet or artist or singer can change lives for years to come, across the globe)

It's that nasty irony about democratic systems (And why true democracies don't exist). It's technically fair, but since, for whatever reason, humans tend to make sure the majority of their number are ignorant, the results will usually be bad.

That and the whole 'tyranny of the ignorant horny people' thing just feels funny.

Be a man, use a sledge! None of that Asian crap! It takes a true man to kill some one that way

Doubleyou Tee Eff?

Gladius = asian?

Buh?

Be a man, use a sledge! None of that Asian crap! It takes a true man to kill some one that way
Thought gladias was roman not asian
(you know sharp pointed stabing sward used by gladiators)

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions! You have sex, you bear the child, and you give it up for adoption! Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit! God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life! You care only about your freaking ass "rights". Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!
Actually, no. It is killing a cluster of cells. It is not reffered to as an "infant" until it is formed as a baby, not a smaller organism. I will not argue that it is extinguishing a potential life, but it is not killing an infant. It is though a potential life. Things could go wrong. There could be a still birth. Are contraceptives and condoms wrong with you, too? They keep the 'baby' from ever existing.

Actually, no. It is killing a cluster of cells. It is not reffered to as an "infant" until it is formed as a baby, not a smaller organism. I will not argue that it is extinguishing a potential life, but it is not killing an infant. It is though a potential life. Things could go wrong. There could be a still birth. Are contraceptives and condoms wrong with you, too? They keep the 'baby' from ever existing.
If you want to be technical

Once it is a fetus it is a baby

ba·by Audio pronunciation of "baby" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

1.
1. A very young child; an infant.
2. An unborn child; a fetus.
3. The youngest member of a family or group.
4. A very young animal.

2
fe·tus Audio pronunciation of "fetus" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fts)
n. pl. fe·tus·es

1. The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.
2. In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

look at number 2

So at week 8 it is a baby (and abortions are legal up to week 20) so ...
it could be killing a baby (and you said that infant was a baby ... though that is not in the dictionary deffinition)

So that could be killing an infant acording to your deffinition of infant

How long has the DICTIONARY been a moral arbiter? !!?!

How long has the DICTIONARY been a moral arbiter? !!?!
Its not ... he was arguing word choice ... which is different then moral choice

Listen people, when I'm a father, and I have a daughter, and she, when she becomes a teen, and if she gets pregnant(unless its rape, incest, or she'll die at childbirth), and tells me about it, I will not yell at her or such. Instead I will tell her this, "Thanks for telling me. That took a lot of courage and I respect that. But you will have to carry the child. You will bear the child, and you will put it up for adoption." (But I would try to raise her so she wouldn't have consensual sex)


Hold up. I thought you said you believed in souls? The children who are products of incest or rape don't have "souls" now? You're saying it's ok to kill a child WITH A "SOUL" because its parents were family or one of the parents raped the other one? Does that mean I can go out and knife children who are the result of rape or incest? What if I was the result of rape? Do you reserve the right to kill me, brother? :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Holy Paradise
Listen people, when I'm a father, and I have a daughter, and she, when she becomes a teen, and if she gets pregnant(unless its rape, incest, or she'll die at childbirth), and tells me about it, I will not yell at her or such. Instead I will tell her this, "Thanks for telling me. That took a lot of courage and I respect that. But you will have to carry the child. You will bear the child, and you will put it up for adoption." (But I would try to raise her so she wouldn't have consensual sex)

you'd raise her to get raped?

seriously though, i can't believe anyone would force their child to carry a child against their will. if it was my daughter i'd support her decision.

Thought gladias was roman not asian

My B, I was thinking of a katana. Still the statement stands, be a man, use a giant sledge. It's easy to kill someone with a blade, all you have to do is walk into someone hard enough and you can kill them with a sword. With a hammer, you need concentrated force to kill someone, or gravity, if the thing is large enough.

My B, I was thinking of a katana. Still the statement stands, be a man, use a giant sledge. It's easy to kill someone with a blade, all you have to do is walk into someone hard enough and you can kill them with a sword. With a hammer, you need concentrated force to kill someone, or gravity, if the thing is large enough.
Then be a real man and use a sharp pencil. It takes some determination and a special kind of individual to repeatedly stab someone with a sharp pencil. And when it breaks, chances are he's still alive and you have to fight him for a while until he bleeds out.

Yes, its good that the baby goes to heaven. But do you know what happens to people who kill anything with a soul? Yes, that's right.......

They go to Hell.

How do you know that? Ultimately, you just think that happens. And you think that happens because someone told you to believe that. Maybe your logic that SEX = NAUGHTY is wrong, and when you die you'll end up rotting in the ground either way.

And just to piss you off, I HATE BABIES.

And just to piss you off, I HATE BABIES.
Why? They taste like veal.

I meant that I hate LIVING babies. Did you know that you can make a tasty beverage by shaking a baby until blood runs out its ears?

I meant that I hate LIVING babies. Did you know that you can make a tasty beverage by shaking a baby until blood runs out its ears?
I prefer to put one in a blender with a scoop of chocolate ice cream, some peanut butter, a bannana, and some milk. Just the thing after a long hard workout.

Is kind of wierd is it not? I think he probably does but likes to preach ... drooling privatly

I refer to my earliest comment... I won't call him a conservative religious zealot... just a eunuch.

I prefer to put one in a blender with a scoop of chocolate ice cream, some peanut butter, a bannana, and some milk. Just the thing after a long hard workout.

True, but they've got quite a lot of calories. I prefer to make a nice roast by severing the baby, skinning it, and cooking it in a pressure cooker in hickory sauce. The meat is so tender the juice just runs down your chin...

True, but they've got quite a lot of calories. I prefer to make a nice roast by severing the baby, skinning it, and cooking it in a pressure cooker in hickory sauce. The meat is so tender the juice just runs down your chin...
Now that's a good post for an abortion thread.

Damn straight.
I hope Holy Paradise was reading these.

No such luck I guess. Maybe he'll check them out tomorrow or something.

Then I'll save the best for last.

can you have an abortion crime "in the heat of passion"?

I've never heard of such a case.

on what grounds?
The distinction made by both the Bible and centuries of Western jurisprudence.

I didn't know that killing an embrio is a murder.
In the posted news item, the baby had been born.

I think you can have an abortion whatsit in the heat of passion. If you have a giant dick and you're having sex with a pregnant woman, then you could impale the baby.

What if you were just finished doing it and you look down, and there's a fetus writhing on your cock?

Okay, this thread is far too huge for me to know that someone hasn't said this before, but anyway it's a point that deserves reiterating anyway:

I you really think that the 50s, or any era in human history, was some kind of moral utopia, then you're seriously fetishizing a revisionist history.

Actually, compared to the 1960's, today's crime rate has dropped, some even say as much as 20%.
In 2000, the US national crime rate was more than double what it was in 1960. Violent crime and rape had tripled, and aggravated assault had increased almost four-fold.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

That said, it continues to decrease and is much lower than most of Western Europe.

Abortion should be legalized
Abortion has -- sadly -- been legal in the United States since 1973.

Having just briefly flicked through these posts, I'm glad Holy Paradise is getting the message across :D

The whole "back in the good old days speech" doesn't work anymore. Terrible things happened in the olden days, the only difference as that nobody talked about it and abortions were much worse than they are now.

Moral Utopia...Bollocks

Holy, people have been doing like this for centuries. Anyways, the way you are acting is nothing new. People always frightened by the reality of their times, why back in the B.C. and early A.D. years, people thought sex was sex and you could have it with anyone. Very few communities were against two people of the same sex having sex, but after a while foundations like the Catholic Church began to generate their own idea on who people should have sex with, and as soon as it got its motion going and plenty of influence, it began generating those ideas. Now, the ideas in American society are being conflicted with gays wanting marriages, and more and more people are accepting homosexual lifestyles and activity, and you know what? People are complaining about it, and saying it is immoral to do, when in fact, at one time, it was moral to do. Morals are relative, and change over time, and thus meaning that they have not seperated from society in any way. Abortion to one group of people is bad, while another might not see it as such, such as pro life groups and pro abortion groups.

The real tragedy here is that we live in such a society full of assclowns like you who jump at people like this girl, and so we get stuck with teenagers being frightened by the idea of sharing a secret with even just their parents. If this girl had let her parents know the problem and gotten the abortion, then she would of had to go through a lot less pain, and would not of been facing murder charges. If her parents made her keep the baby, then she would of had to of gone through life raising it, and would of not ended up with murder charges.

Adoption? Do you know how many children remain in orphanages without being adopted at all?
Try condoms instead - they help preventing STDs as well

There are so many orphans here that people have to frequently fly to China and Russia to adopt. Oh, that could also be due to the crappy adoption legal requirements here.

There are so many orphans here that people have to frequently fly to China and Russia to adopt. Oh, that could also be due to the crappy adoption legal requirements here.
Perhaps it's because they want a white or asian baby. There are plenty of little black kids up for adoption and few people seem to want them. They will grow up in institutions and foster homes.

Yes, crappy requirements like having a decent income and no record of violent crime are likely to reduce the number of legal adoptions.

You die when you're heart stops beating right? So my logic is you aren't alive till you're heart starts beating. So abortion after that is wrong in my opinion.

You die when you're heart stops beating right? So my logic is you aren't alive till you're heart starts beating. So abortion after that is wrong in my opinion.
You can be braindead and still have a heartbeat. Let's make abortion illegal after the brain develops to a certain point.

You can be braindead and still have a heartbeat. Let's make abortion illegal after the brain develops to a certain point.

Is there a defined time for that?

You die when you're heart stops beating right? So my logic is you aren't alive till you're heart starts beating. So abortion after that is wrong in my opinion.

Even once the heart starts beating, the embryo does not meet all the requirements to be deemed as an organism. These requirements are not accomplished until a rudimentary nervous system is formed, which generally occurs between weeks 8 and 12.

Dude,
I am a 15 year old overrealigis zelot like you. I completly agree with everything you are saying. it is a sleepery slpe to hell. That story is really relly sad. to bad she did not put is up for adoption. By the wat my email is huffines2004@yahoo.com if you want to e mail me any more stuff. I am a HARD CORE RIGHT WING REBUPLICAN! and I know a few letwing retards out there my sn is colinbh82 is u want to im me. Also u and anyone else might be interested in starting a new right wing party called the Confederacy II (we are not for slavery) I am from Texas so that might explaine it

rebulican by birth

...and you spell like a 15 year old too... :rolleyes: :D

Dude,
I am a 15 year old overrealigis zelot like you. I completly agree with everything you are saying. it is a sleepery slpe to hell. That story is really relly sad. to bad she did not put is up for adoption. By the wat my email is huffines2004@yahoo.com if you want to e mail me any more stuff. I am a HARD CORE RIGHT WING REBUPLICAN! and I know a few letwing retards out there my sn is colinbh82 is u want to im me. Also u and anyone else might be interested in starting a new right wing party called the Confederacy II (we are not for slavery) I am from Texas so that might explaine it

rebulican by birth
When are you planning to bomb your first clinic?

...and you spell like a 15 year old too... :rolleyes: :D
As a 15 year old, I take offense at that comment. He spells like a 3 year old. He's also a crazy nut.

BIG HINT TO CONFEDERACY II: The better you spell and the better your grammar is, the more seriously you are taken on this board. Those who blatantly omit and misplace letters are generally shunned and despised. I also find it queer that you would accuse left wingers of being retarted when you are the one more so than they.

But on the other hand, it is nice to have another hyperconservative moron running around that we can laugh at. Any remember Fat Smelly Bastards? He was the guy who claimed to be a biker dude and called everybody "jerkos".

Umm...I've heard that women who dress more casually tend to be cockteases. The ones who dress more modestly are the world's worst panty-droppers. I have straight friends who will tell you this. Part of the reason for this phenomenon is that there is scientific evidence that men tend to act like fucking morons around scantily-clad, attractive women. This has the effect of making said women less likely to readily engage in sexual relations with men and more likely to pursue permanent partnerships. It's said of Christian girls that once you get them past the guilt, they'll ride you like a pony.

Also, back in the old days and down in Brazil, people would say of a pregnant thirteen year old, "well, it's about time."

Besides, teen pregnancy is largely a red state problem, the worst being Mississippi. Don't believe me?

http://trevorcook.typepad.com/election/2004/12/teen_pregnancy_.html

Christian girls are the world's worst sluts, and clergymen are the worst porn addicts.

New Hampshire, however, the home of gay marriage and the heart of the moral decline, has the lowest rate of teen pregnancy in the entire country. Who woulda thunkit?

Christian morality is an oxymoron.

the way to solve the problem is simple. I am a totalitarian leader. Your only allowed to have sex if married and only to have a baby abortions are illegal and adopting orphans is legal otherwise it is illegal and putting people up for adoption is illegal. cats are strickly forbidden and dogs are mandatory and trained to strike. And that isn't plutonium or radioactive for that matter just because it glows green and is a gloo like thing and is in an illegal dumpsite doesn't mean it's radioactive

Yes, let us return to a time when everyone went to Church, how about the 1500s? Can anyone tell me the rather endearing social traits of the 1500s, no? Well here they are:

Gang rape was considered perfectly acceptable if the victim had committed the terrible sin of not being married yet

The Church had such a superstitious and insecure view of the world that science could only advance when particularly brilliant people were brave enough to make it happen

Paedophilia and incest were common in the highest echelons of the church

People with physical and mental disabilities were considered outcasts

If the church or ruling classes needed to draw attention away from themselves they would sanction the mass murder of Muslims and Jews

A fun day out was seeing an execution, sometimes by horrific methods such as hanging, drawing and quartering

Ergo - Just because people are religious doesn't mean they don't do bad stuff

I'm only a year older than you (Confedracy II) yet I can spell my birth language, why don't you try a little something called education cowboy?

Besides, teen pregnancy is largely a red state problem, the worst being Mississippi. Don't believe me?



Good point, here in backwards Europe the more Liberal countries (ie Sweden) generally have much lower teenage pregnancy rates. That's because they are more open and have better sex education in schools as opposed to here in Britain were it's along the lines of:-

'when a man loves a women they have something called sex, don't do it and if you do, wear a condom'

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! No one these days takes responsibility for their immoral actions!

Wee, let's play this game!

You have sex,

And of course we always do this without condoms because God didn't make a condomn tree, and wasting jizz makes baby jesus cry!

You think sex without marriage is immoral, but the lack of birth control is just irresponsible.

you bear the child,

TEH RESPONSIBILIAH!

and you give it up for adoption!

Er, huh. How is this takeing responsibility? It's only handing off the child for someone else to take marginal care of. The mother isn't taking on any extra responsibility this way, she's still just surrendering the child and acting like it never happened.

Do that! Getting abortion is killing an infant too damnit!

Actually, it's the removal of cells that cannot sustain life on their own. As long as the fetus has not been born, it is dependant upon a mother. If the mother is unwilling or unable to care for it, she simply chooses to have her body stop supporting that fetus. After birth, the infant can survive on it's own, and ending it's life is then murder.

God! I'm tired of you freaking liberals and how you don't care about life!

Don't you think pregnant women aren't dying in Iraq as 'collateral damage'? Why is it fine for them to be murdered and for their unborn to die with them at the hands of others while it's wrong for a woman to make a decision on her own body here at home?

Conservatives block any true education reform. They battle welfare which puts food in some young mouths. They turn a blind eye to killer diseases like AIDS. Possibly worst, they support the slow poisoning of our air.

What type of life are you providing for the babies you save? You aren't pro-life. You're pro-birth.

You care only about your freaking ass "rights".

Sorry if we actually care about a little thing called the constitution, asshat.

Yeah, well, how about I shove the roe vs. wade ruling up your freaking ass!

Ahhh. No conservative rant would be complete without a mention of sodomy. You guys have some real obsession with that, eh?

You can be braindead and still have a heartbeat. Let's make abortion illegal after the brain develops to a certain point.

And we would know this by going in and doing a check-up? All fetuses develop at slightly different rates, so how would we determine when it reached your point?

Of course, others use the more clearly established limit of breathing. After the first breath, the baby is alive. Well, guess when this is; at birth.

in the 1500s the catholic church was corrupt the corruption ended around 1555 with the treaty of augsburg and the beginning of the counter revolution. Now if the Catholic Church is bad them america is the evilest place on earth.

Internment camps
Nuclear warheads on Japanese 2 major cities
Mass killing of captured japenese
Blaming Germany on everything since kindergarten Just because of ww2 they blame germany when its all servia's fault. Yes they started ww1 america made germany pay an equivalent of $1,000,000,000,000 today germany got created pissed off and then yea you know the rest unless you are from north korea where they teach that anne frank's nazis were americans but lets not go into the north korean educational system
The genocide of "native" americans and their relocation
future destruction of good
starting wars with defenceless people but don't help those in need
ignoring un

yea well compared to the catholic church america isn't looking too good.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :headbang: See? See? You don't get it! You just don't get it! Blah, blah, blah, you suck! No one takes responsibility for their actions! [...] Liberals suck!

Ironic that Conservatives are Pro war-in-Iraq, which has claimed 10,000+ Iraqi citizens' lives as well as 1,200+ US soldiers' lives, and yet you care about the life of _ONE_ _FUCKING_ _CHILD. And yes, I'm sure you and your Idol Bush take very much responsibility for your actions, supporter of a war that has cost $200+ Billion. What about all the children who have been crisped to death by Mortars? Do you care about them less than you do about one dumbass girl, her whackjob boyfriend, and her deceased offspring? "Christian Morality is an Oxymoron" indeed.

Now maybe I'm just a Crazy, Secular, 14-year-old Male Liberal who knows shit about shit, but I see some serious flaws in Conservatism. To me, Conservatism is like Autism; you focus on the details too damn much without looking at the whole picture; without looking at how that one little thing affects everything else or how it doesn't or how little or much it matters compared to everything else. You're too 'zoomed in', I suggest you hit the "W" button.

Now, you may call me a 13 year old male religious conservative nutjob, but I'm going to tell you this news:

In the Bronx, a 13 year old girl was impregnated by her 15 year old boyfriend. She then hid her pregnancy with coats. When she went into labor, her mother was asleep, so she had the baby and threw it out the window of her apartment and into the alley and killed it. The father was pissed off at him, but, being a loser, he put the body of the baby into a birthday bag and left it in front of a church. It was found and the girl is now under arrest for murder(and that she should be).



Now that you have read it, read it again. This is today's society, people. Here, if you still don't get i, let me do a little skit for you:
-Morals loses his best friend-
Characters:
Society
Morals

Morals: Hey Society, what's up?

Society: Look Morals, I know we have been best friends, but I've met new friends. Their names are Hollywood, Teen Sexuality, and Abortion just to name a few. They told me I shouldn't hang out with you anymore.

Morals: But, those guys will lead you down the wrong path!

Society: No they won't, you will.

Morals(sighing): Fine....but...you'll see....oh,you'll see.

-End-


Well, Society still hasn't seen it yet, and its been getting worse. Before the 60s, girls wore long skirts, sleeved shirts, and underwear that tried to cover their private areas. Now, they wear: short shorts, thongs, midriffs, tank tops, and uggh...it just makes me sick. You can call me a 13 year old religious zealot, but I stand where I am: We have lost our ways.

That is totally disgusting and I couldn't agree more with you. It shows how low the western world's moral standards are. I would rather we had muslim standards on morals than than what we have now in the west.

is bad them america is the evilest place on earth.

Uh, two words, "Fuck You." Plain and simple. Hey hey, guess what? Where did American settlers come from? Britian, France, Italy, Ireland, Germany, and any country that exists or isn't around anymore. Who came to America searching for gold and enslaved, murdered and raped the natives? Whose uncleanliness brought over diseases that wiped out millions of Natives? Wait, wait.... A European, Spanish, possibly, just maybe?

Nuclear warheads on Japanese 2 major cities
As for this, Admiral Asshole, military generals predicted the death of countless millions of innocent people and hundreds of thousands of GI's if we invaded Japan. The war would have lasted until the 1950's if we hadn't. I think two cities of people is better than millions of others, wouldn't you agree?

Mass killing of captured japenese
Uh, bullshit. What we do to captured people is like putting them in a Hilton compared to what the enemies do to us. Ever see what the damn Japs did to our GI's?

future destruction of good
Who invented the lightbulb that I bet you are using RIGHT now? American. Your car/bus/motorcycle? American, Refridgerator? How about that computer you waste electrons with asinine posts with? Commerical power plants? CocaCola, Pepsi? Polio Vaccine, Penicillin, Viagra? All fuckin' American products! Yeah, were destroying good by keeping assholes like you alive.