NationStates Jolt Archive

Hang on a minute, ive got a crazy idea. Maybe this "God" thing you all talk about doesn't actualy exist! Maybe the reason why people cant find a solution to his/her's ways is because there is no way, there is no God. perhaps.

It's saddening to see that people simply don't look into things thoroughly before they start throwing their opinions around.

How could God possibly allow this to happen? Honestly i don't know. But if we look back to the beginning we had a perfect world but we fell and the world became imperfect. Thats when all the bad stuff came in. That's just a simple way of putting it. But in the fall we see the working of a loving omnipotent God, already preparing a rescue.

It's interesting that it's only after a big disaster that people say God can't exist. And that guy who said that this was worse than the Holocaust, what the hell are you saying????? It's arguments like that which show how little thought goes into the criticism of something that most people get their opinions of from the media.

At the end of the day if God stepped in everytime a tragedy was to occur, be it man made or natural, what would be the point in free will? And the natural disasters that we are experiencing show a planet which is ultimately heading towards its own end.

Actually we get them both. It's 2005 here now, and in a few weeks it'll be the year of the cock, I mean rooster.

Wait, I was under the impression that Chinese New Years was a little later on. Oh well, guess I'm stupid.

Cheers :)

Well in that case, I would apricate the Atheist side to come out and admit that they cannot be "certian" without faith.

Wasn't this discussed five times already somewhere on this forum?
Heh, it's a big circle. A big circle. Don't look here! Look at the shiny circle! If you don't believe in the power of the shiny circle, the shiny circle shall come down and smite you. Do you want to be smitten? And forget that Neo said anything, for he is a heretic.

Oh, my religious zealot mode just turned on for a second there.

;)

Cheers

It's saddening to see that people simply don't look into things thoroughly before they start throwing their opinions around.


Yes, something you should work to correct. ;)


How could God possibly allow this to happen? Honestly i don't know. But if we look back to the beginning we had a perfect world but we fell and the world became imperfect. Thats when all the bad stuff came in. That's just a simple way of putting it. But in the fall we see the working of a loving omnipotent God, already preparing a rescue.

So, where did the imperfection come from again? And god preparing a rescue? Where?

It's interesting that it's only after a big disaster that people say God can't exist. And that guy who said that this was worse than the Holocaust, what the hell are you saying????? It's arguments like that which show how little thought goes into the criticism of something that most people get their opinions of from the media.

Yeah, because of those godless commie liberal news networks.

At the end of the day if God stepped in everytime a tragedy was to occur, be it man made or natural, what would be the point in free will? And the natural disasters that we are experiencing show a planet which is ultimately heading towards its own end.

WE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS!! It's a little hard to grasp an omnipotent god with free will. Please explain how that works.

Cheers

Wait, I was under the impression that Chinese New Years was a little later on. Oh well, guess I'm stupid.

Cheers :)

Yeah, Chinese new year is in a few weeks. But that's the new year in the traditional lunar calendar. Most business is conducted to the Roman calendar nowadays. So the year in terms of functional dates is 2005, but it's still the year of the monkey according to the lunar calendar. That'll change after Spring Festival, aka Chinese New Year.

I hope that's clearer to you than it seems to me re-reading it.

this isn't the point really. The point is that god created evil because he *is* omniscient. It seems to me that god is shifting the blame so he wouldn't appear liable for the presence of evil. Pretty brilliant if you think about it.
I would have to agree wholeheartedly. So perhaps God is the original "evil genious", bent on taking over the world? :)

I think the band XTC said it best waaay back in 1987.

Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I don’t mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
’cause they don’t get enough to eat

From god,
I can’t believe in you.

Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
’cause they can’t make opinions meet,
About god,
I can’t believe in you.

Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!

Dear god,
Don’t know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it ain’t and so do you,
Dear god,
I can’t believe in,
I don’t believe in,

I won’t believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
You’re always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And it’s the same the whole world ’round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the father, son and holy ghost,
Is just somebody’s unholy hoax,
And if you’re up there you’ll perceive,
That my heart’s here upon my sleeve.
If there’s one thing I don’t believe in...

It’s you,
Dear god.

we had a perfect world but we fell and the world became imperfect. Thats when all the bad stuff came in.

Okay, I'm no biblical scholar, but isn't Eve the one blamed for the fall of "man" for daring to eat from the tree of knowledge?

Is wanting to know a crime? What kind of micromanaging god would be that hellbent on keeping his creations ignorant? That's the sort of thing I'd be asking if I wasn't already convinced that there is no supreme being watching over us.

May I ask if you understand what a god is? And are you sure what you understand to be a god is not just your subjective opinion?

:)
My understanding of godhood is my subjective opinion. :-)

Okay, I'm no biblical scholar, but isn't Eve the one blamed for the fall of "man" for daring to eat from the tree of knowledge?

Is wanting to know a crime? What kind of micromanaging god would be that hellbent on keeping his creations ignorant? That's the sort of thing I'd be asking if I wasn't already convinced that there is no supreme being watching over us.
yes
no
he obviously wasn't...

My understanding of godhood is my subjective opinion. :-)

as are all understandings of the subject matter ;) Closest thing to an objective opinion is agnosticism but even then that isn't truely objective (although we do try to keep an open mind to all possibilities, some possibilites are more possible than others and so we are not truely objective :rolleyes: )

Yeah, Chinese new year is in a few weeks. But that's the new year in the traditional lunar calendar. Most business is conducted to the Roman calendar nowadays. So the year in terms of functional dates is 2005, but it's still the year of the monkey according to the lunar calendar. That'll change after Spring Festival, aka Chinese New Year.

I hope that's clearer to you than it seems to me re-reading it.


Yeah, that is clear. I wasn't really wrong, but not really right either.

Thanks,

My understanding of godhood is my subjective opinion. :-)

Fair enough.

:)

Cheers

It's saddening to see that people simply don't look into things thoroughly before they start throwing their opinions around.

How could God possibly allow this to happen? Honestly i don't know. But if we look back to the beginning we had a perfect world but we fell and the world became imperfect. Thats when all the bad stuff came in. That's just a simple way of putting it. But in the fall we see the working of a loving omnipotent God, already preparing a rescue.

It's interesting that it's only after a big disaster that people say God can't exist. And that guy who said that this was worse than the Holocaust, what the hell are you saying????? It's arguments like that which show how little thought goes into the criticism of something that most people get their opinions of from the media.

At the end of the day if God stepped in everytime a tragedy was to occur, be it man made or natural, what would be the point in free will? And the natural disasters that we are experiencing show a planet which is ultimately heading towards its own end.

I am so glad to find sum 1 on here that i can agree with :) also God likes people to have faith in him. if he made the world perfect then there would be no need for faith would ther?

I am so glad to find sum 1 on here that i can agree with :) also God likes people to have faith in him. if he made the world perfect then there would be no need for faith would ther?

Uh, didn't we already go over how if your omnipotent, you don't want, need, or like anything?

Cheers

we had a perfect world but we fell and the world became imperfect. Thats when all the bad stuff came in.

Okay, I'm no biblical scholar, but isn't Eve the one blamed for the fall of "man" for daring to eat from the tree of knowledge?

Is wanting to know a crime? What kind of micromanaging god would be that hellbent on keeping his creations ignorant? That's the sort of thing I'd be asking if I wasn't already convinced that there is no supreme being watching over us.
I think that the story of Adam has more to tell us than just the bare literal facts. Please read the following from Baha'i Faith.

In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: "Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die."[1] Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: "God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil."[2] Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: "Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree?" Adam answered: "Eve tempted Me, and I did eat." God then reproved Eve; Eve said: "The serpent tempted me, and I did eat." For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: "The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever." So God guarded the tree of life.[3]
[1 Cf. Gen. 2:16-17.]
[2 Cf. Gen. 3:5.]
[3 Cf. Gen. 3:11-15,22.] *123*

If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity -- that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.

We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.

We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary [1] was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity -- that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
[1 Bahá'u'lláh.]

Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary [1] were spread abroad, the human realities -- that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties -- were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, "I gave My blood for the life of the world"[2] -- that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom.
[1 Bahá'u'lláh.]
[2 Cf. John 6:51.]

Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book,[1] the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
[1 Jews and Christians.]

No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: "Let the dead bury their dead." Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 121)